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Gina R Snape - Apr 14, 2006 6:56 pm (#1751 of 2969)
There is a very good essay on the Lexicon about where Spinner's End might be located (in the Manchester/Salford area of northern England).
As for the socially less-adept kids... JKR seems to favour them in Harry's generation. But certainly Snape might have been one of those kids in his time yet she has a very strong leaning towards the Marauders who were the popular kids at the time. One of these days maybe we'll get an entire treatment of that era from JKR.
I shudder to think how the fandom would react if Snape were left ambiguous to the very end. JKR would have no peace, I tell you.. NO PEACE at all! Heh, heh.
Magic Words - Apr 14, 2006 7:34 pm (#1752 of 2969)
Books on the Marauders would be an absolute dream come true. We can always hope.
I think the Snape issue needs to be resolved, and I for one would be pretty disappointed if he turned out to be evil. Even apart from my dislike of evil characters and of being proven wrong. The very thing I like about Snape is that he's so incredibly complex: misfit "half-blood prince" turned anti-Muggle turned Death Eater turned spy killed Dumbledore and who knows what he's doing now. And of course, the biggest mysteries we're left with are 1) why he switched sides if he's so bitter and hateful and 2)why he would do what he did in HBP if he's on our side. But if we assume he's merely a Death Eater with great Occlumency and acting skills, there are no mysteries left. He's exactly what he appears to be. And that's just no fun.
Dobby Socks - Apr 14, 2006 11:45 pm (#1753 of 2969)
I don’t think JKR will leave us dangling where Snape is concerned. She’s put too much into his character and, I think, plotted his character development out very carefully and purposefully over 6 books (in terms of how much we discover and when). All the most crucial questions now seem to be hinging on him. Besides, yeah, I think there would be riots the world over if it were left unresolved.
And, Gina, it may be my own delusion, but I think Jo might have a greater affinity with Severus than she lets on. The Marauders are shown to be more and more flawed, while Snape becomes a more sympathetic character. Of course, this fits very well with Harry discovering as he matures that the world isn’t as black and white as he originally perceived it. Hmmm… Two more highly questionable pieces of circumstantial evidence: 1. According to her website (which I think is considered canon,) JKR was a Smiths fan at one point in her life. Disregarding any debate as to the location of Spinner’s End, etc., Snape’s particular wit and sense of humor have a bit in common with Morrissey’s (at least to my ear.) 2.) Nevermind, I found the appropriate thread and I’ll bring it back here if I think it’s relevant. And I solemnly swear I will never mention the Smiths again, just thought it was interesting and perhaps not as frivolous as it seems.
HH11 and journeymom, the way Harry “dismissed” Kreacher after he completed his Draco task makes me extremely uncomfortable. The wording is almost identical to Sirius’ in OoP. I’m glad you brought this up HH11. Can’t believe it, but I had forgotten about it.
Please correct me if I’m wrong about this. I know Kreacher is very taken with the Malfoys, but doesn’t Bella have the most prominent spot in his little shrine in OoP? I had the feeling that it was Bella who he worshipped the most. If there’s a Narcissa/Bella split in book 7 in terms of Voldemort loyalty, if Snape is with Narcissa and Draco, and if Kreacher is able to move among those three, plus Bella, and Harry, he could wreak quite a bit of havoc. From the way Kreacher let Harry know that he had covered all possible loopholes in his instructions to tail Draco, I’m not convinced that a House Elf has to show complete loyalty to his master, especially if he feels that his true loyalties should lie elsewhere.
And hello to journeymom and winlia. I’m new, too, and my head is spinning with all of these posts. I’ve been lurking since August or September and have barely made a dent in all the backreading. I think it’s virtually impossible not to touch upon things that have already been discussed, even if you use the search key obsessively.
Gina R Snape - Apr 15, 2006 5:18 am (#1754 of 2969)
Edited Apr 15, 2006 6:20 am
I've been coming to the Lex since October 2002 and I can definitely affirm that themes get repeated. It's just not possible to remean repeat-free.
And I absolutely agree, Snape's sense of humour is a lot like Morrissey's! Only, Snape would never allow himself to appear wallowing in self-pity. Though zapping flies certainly iindicates some prior depressive tendencies. (As do some other traits, and if you are really ambitious you can do a search for the psychiatric assessment of Snape I wrote up a few summers ago). JKR did state at one point she was a Smiths fan, btw. I remember that quite well.
We definitely learned in CoS that house elves can be loyal to the letter and still not be loyal to their masters in spirit. It's just that we like Dobby, and not Kreacher, so we are more apt to think of him as "doing the right thing" than "being disloyal" as it were.
wynnleaf - Apr 15, 2006 6:15 am (#1755 of 2969)
Edited Apr 15, 2006 7:29 am
Dobby Socks, I'm in the dark on this. Could you please tell me what your reference to Morrissey and Smith is about? I'm clueless. Who are they? Or Gina, if you know?
On another note, I mentioned in a recent post how we learn about Severus through the narration of an adolescent's point of view. I thought it might be useful to give everyone an example of how this works to distort the reader's view of what Severus is like. While there are some really excellent examples in HBP, I'd like to use an early one in POA. If anyone's interested, I'd suggest going back and reading the first half of the chapter "The Boggart in the Wardrobe." The first half of the chapter describes a particular Potions class where the reader is lead to believe Severus is being grossly unfair, nasty, mean, and cruel. But is he really?
Draco's arm is bound in bandages and a sling and he claims he can't cut his daisy roots. Snape tells Ron to cut them for him. Ron angrily chops the roots up in an uneven fashion. Draco complains and Snape insists that Ron exchange his carefully cut roots with the uneven ones he cut for Draco. This is presented as though it is highly unfair. In fact, it is quite fair. Even if Ron didn't think Draco was badly hurt, he had been told to cut the roots and then he deliberately cut them quite incorrectly in a class where precision is everything to obtaining a good result. Snape telling Ron to switch roots was fair, but was described as though it was unfair.
Then Draco asked for help on skinning his shrivelfig. Snape tells Harry to do it. Harry acts as though Snape asked him to do that out of loathing, but in fact it was a completely reasonable thing to ask him to do.
Later, Snape checks Nevilles potion. Snape ladles out some and comments on the color a couple of times. It's obviously been done very incorrectly. Snape says, "Orange. Tell me, boy, does anything penetrate that thick skull of yours? Didn't you hear me say, quite clearly, that only one rat spleen was needed? Didn't I state plainly that a dash of leech juice would suffice? What do I have to do to make you understand, Longbottom?" After these remarks, Neville is pink and trembling and on the verge of tears.
Okay, the "thick skull" part is mean. But the comments after that are not much different from what I've heard out of many teachers over the years when talking to a student who never seems to pay attention to directions. Remember, Neville isn't stupid and he's not presented as having a learning disability or whatever. He's scared. But really, he's a lot more scared than any other of the students. Is this truly Snape's fault that Neville is far more scared of him than most of the students? Partly, maybe. But Neville also has a lot of insecurities that are naturally going to come out around an intimidating teacher. Was Snape being mean? Yes. But it's not dramatically mean.
Okay, next we've got Hermione helping Neville. In the scene Hermione first asks to help Neville and is told a definite, "No." Like I said, Neville isn't learning disabled or a "slower" student. He's scared. Snape often tells Hermione not to help Neville, but she consistently defies Snape to do it anyway. Hey, I learned way back in 2nd grade that I wasn't supposed to help another student with their work unless it was okayed by the teacher. But Hermione keeps going. She basically does Neville's work for him. The fact that Snape doesn't want her to help Neville is presented as terribly unfair. It's not unfair at all.
After Neville's potion (with major Hermione help) is finally completed correctly, Snape actually takes 5 points away because Hermione helped him. Ron acts like this is awful to take points "because the potion was all right," but in fact the points were taken because of Hermione's complete defiance of what Snape told her -- not because the potion was right.
That leaves the only other "nastiness" of Snape's in the scene where he threatens to try Neville's potion on Trevor. Neville is terrified because Snape says they'll test the potion on Trevor and if it's a bad potion, "his toad is likely to be poisoned." 1. Why is Neville always bringing his toad to class? No one else brings pets to class. Should Neville be bringing a toad that tends to escape to Potions class? 2. Did he actually harm Trevor? Yes, he gave the toad the potion, but since it was moments before established that Snape could tell a good Shrinking Solution potion from a bad one just by sight, he likely already knew whether it was going to work correctly. 3. Finally, this is not a threat I'm unfamiliar with. At our home, my husband regularly threatens all sorts of bodily harm to our ridiculously dim witted cocker spaniel. Some of our younger children seem to believe that Dad will actually do away with the dog one day. In actuality, he would never harm the rather stupid dog. Is Snape doing the same thing when he tosses out these threats to students and Trevor? I wouldn't be surprised.
So that takes us through that entire scene. Except for referring to Neville's "thick skull" and saying he would give Trevor an incorrectly done Shrinking Solution that would poison him (which he doesn't do), no other action of Snape's is particularly questionable. Yet the entire scene is written as though every one of his words and actions was mean, unfair, nasty, etc.
Now I'm NOT saying Snape is really a nice guy. I'm not saying he doesn't do and say some mean things. But my point is that the writing is intentionally trying to make us see him in as bad a light as possible, even when his actions and words don't necessarily warrant it.
rambkowalczyk - Apr 15, 2006 6:40 am (#1756 of 2969)
Wynnleaf, I agree that with the examples (and there are other examples as well) you have provided, that Snape's actions are often misunderstood and that if seen from another point of view are not nasty or unfair. But, to be fair, why did Snape have Harry and Ron help Draco. Why not use Nott or Zabini to help Draco.
In GOF after Draco cursed Hermiones' teeth to grow, I couldn't find a neutral explanation as to why Snape further insulted Hermione.(He commented that she didn't really look any different.) Maybe Snape was stressed out because of Moody breathing down his neck he just lost it and took it out on Hermione.
Gina R Snape - Apr 15, 2006 7:39 am (#1757 of 2969)
Edited Apr 15, 2006 8:50 am
Wynnleaf, oh how I love that scene. It is to me so hysterically funny for just the reasons you lay out. To me, there is no doubt he's picking on Harry and Ron by assigning Draco to them. But aside from that, it is indeed their own actions of defiance that get them in trouble. Snape is sharp enough to know EXACTLY what is going on in his classroom at all times. This scene establishes his observation skills, sense of justice, and understanding of the interpersonal dynamics taking place in the classroom. He takes potions seriously and wants the kids to as well. He's not going to treat the trio (or Neville) with kid gloves. But I don't see him as being overly cruel either.
As for The Smiths, they were an alternative rock band from Manchester, UK who gained huge popularity in Britain and very large cult status in the States (but never a top 10 hit in the States to my knowledge). You may know one of their most popular songs "How Soon Is Now" as it was reworked and made the theme song to the tv show "Charmed." A quick google search came up with this fansite that seems a decent overview.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Ramb, was it you who once posted that you didn't trust Snape precisely because his loyalties may be with DD but for the wrong reasons? I am trying to figure out who posted that. I've joined the Snapecast team and we are looking for someone to be a third host that enjoys discussing Snape and can cogently argue why he is evil without getting hysterical, and who can get along with the Snape-is-good fans.
ETA amazon.com has their best of album vol 1 and 2 with soundclips. Vol 1 [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Vol 2 [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
wynnleaf - Apr 15, 2006 8:04 am (#1758 of 2969)
Edited Apr 15, 2006 9:05 am
rambkowalczyk.
My point was not to say that Severus' actions and words can be taken incorrectly by readers, or differently if seen from another point of view. While that's true, the actual point I was trying to make is that JKR is intentionally writing scenes so that the reader will see him in the worst possible light. The scene I outlined puts makes the reader feel that Snape is being very unfair, cruel, etc., when he is in fact only being just a little bit mean. The point then, is that JKR is intentionally misleading the reader about Snape. Hmm, I think someone else has called this the "unreliable narrator" device. If JKR is intentionally misleading us regarding Snape's degree of cruelty, meanness, etc., there's a reason for it. Why would she want us to think he's worse than he is?
I certainly agree that Severus can say some mean things and the one to Hermione about her teeth is probably one of the worst. One the other hand, this is a girl that he clearly thinks of as a know-it-all, she (as I mentioned earlier) consistently defies him about helping Neville, and she helped in stunning him the previous year in the Shrieking Shack. He should not have said that to her -- it hurt her feelings of course. He was being mean.
But for every truly one mean thing Snape says, there are several more things that the writer makes appear to be mean or unfair, that are actually not so bad at all. JKR is intentionally trying to get the reader to think ill of Snape, even when he's not doing anything wrong.
In a very interesting twist of literary devices, JKR makes a clear distinction in HBP between Harry's view of Snape's responses, actions, voice tone, etc., compared to a bit more impersonal narrative "voice." For instance, in HBP, JKR is careful to say that it is Harry who thinks Snape tone of voice in talking about the Dark Arts is caressing. Whereas, she has Hermione not notice that kind of tone in his voice, and instead compare Snape's speech favorably to Harry's DA comments the year before. But if you're not careful, when you read that bit in HBP, your inner "ear" can "hear" Snape's speech with Harry's perception, simply because the narrator told the reader that Harry thought Snape's voice sounded like that.
Gina, thanks for the info and links.
Mrs Brisbee - Apr 15, 2006 8:15 am (#1759 of 2969)
wynnleaf, you left out part of that Potion scene. After Hermione asks Snape if she can help Neville and he says No, Snape tells Neville he will feed some of the potion to Trevor at the end of the lesson, "to see what happens". That's when Neville, out of desperation and fear, asks Hermione to help him. Was it academically wrong of Hermione to help Neville? Yes. Morally wrong? I don't think so. I would have thought less of Hermione if she did nothing to help her friend after the teacher had threatened to harm his pet. I never had a teacher who used threats like that.
I find Snape amusing when he locks horns with other adults, and sometimes even when he does so with Harry, but when it comes to an adult of Snape's years bullying children, mostly I find it pathetic.
Gina R Snape - Apr 15, 2006 8:17 am (#1760 of 2969)
You're welcome wynnleaf.
Not only does JKR make a distinction in point of view regarding Snape in HBP, she makes what I would call a real, tangible contrast in OOP between Snape's petty meanness and sarcastic humour but overall interest in the students with Umbridge who is cruel, disinterested in student learning (or perhaps active interest in them NOT learning) and unflinching in her enjoyment of physical torture. Plus, sending the dementors was nothing short of homicidal. Snape has NEVER displayed this level of cruelty to anyone, not even Neville. And the AK of DD is up for debate, unlike Umbridge who was unquestionably evil with a sickly sweet smile.
wynnleaf - Apr 15, 2006 8:58 am (#1761 of 2969)
Mrs Brisbee, thanks for clarifying the scene. However, in fact Hermione helps Neville most of the time and that just happens to be the one time Trevor gets threatened. Do they really think Snape will poison Trevor?? Maybe some kids do. But think about it. Hermione is supposed to be the smartest kid in her year. She's in her 3rd year. What evidence do they have that Snape will actually poison anyone? If we believe the degree of Snape's cruelty that the narration tries to trick us into believing, than I can see thinking he might kill Trevor. But if we see that in fact practically everything else he does in the scene is quite fair, then we'd question whether or not he'd really kill Trevor. Like I said, I've known of a number of people who will make these kinds of comments (like my husband threatening bodily injury to our dog) and most people gradually pick up on the fact that this is their manner of speaking and, even if the person is in fact angry, they're not serious about what they're saying. I guess I'm doubting that Hermione isn't bright enough to figure that out. She's clearly shown that she'd help Neville anyway (many times) and Trevor has little to do with it, nor does Snape's specific instructions to her not to help him.
Please remember, I'm not trying to excuse Snape's being mean -- when he is mean. I'm trying to point out that JKR is intentionally trying to make him seem worse than he is by making actions and words that really are only a bit bad, or not bad at all, seem over-the-top cruel, vindictive, etc.
Gina R Snape - Apr 15, 2006 9:06 am (#1762 of 2969)
I might add that Snape had the potions antidote at the ready. If he really wanted to be cruel, he'd have left Trevor as a tadpole and dropped him on the floor. Maybe even stepped on him and smiled.
Snape was trying to motivate Neville into paying attention. Clearly general lecture and browbeating wasn't working, so he used a tactic Neville might find more of a personal incentive to get him to pay proper attention.
Weeny Owl - Apr 15, 2006 11:56 am (#1763 of 2969)
Draco's arm is bound in bandages and a sling and he claims he can't cut his daisy roots. Snape tells Ron to cut them for him.
Then Draco asked for help on skinning his shrivelfig.
No, those aren't fair at all. Snape had plenty of other people around who could have helped Draco. People from Draco and Snape's own house. He deliberately chose to make Ron and Harry be house-elves to Draco's lord of the manor.
I don't really dislike Snape, per se, but I think his nastiness isn't some hidden nobility but just plain nastiness. I think he's cruel because he can be. He likes power. He likes tormenting people. I just feel he truly wants Voldemort gone and is working toward that goal, but in no way do I see his behavior as anything but sadism. He likes hurting people.
Regardless of whether or not he came back to the Order's side, he initially became a Death Eater, and even if he's a half-blood, he still called Lily Evans a Mudblood. He isn't a nice person. JKR even said that Snape was a truly horrible person.
Mrs Brisbee - Apr 15, 2006 12:29 pm (#1764 of 2969)
What Weeny Owl said.
Gina R Snape - Apr 15, 2006 1:28 pm (#1765 of 2969)
It's refreshing to see people who like Snape for his nasty old self.
But don't you think deep deeeeep (very) deep down there is some part of him that actually wants the kids to learn? I do. I especially loved the scene in HBP where he explains to Draco that Crabbe and Goyle have detention so they can learn because they will NEED to have knowledge, being a bully and DE recruit will not be enough to survive on.
winlia - Apr 15, 2006 3:28 pm (#1766 of 2969)
Edited Apr 15, 2006 4:30 pm
I agree that many of the comments of Snape's that Harry views as mean are appropriate or, at least, neutral. There are a few--like the one about Hermoine's teeth--that are pretty nasty, though. To me, Snape's behavior in these instances stems from some combination of three things: 1) He's cruel, and, heaven knows, there are people who are. 2) He doesn't know how to behave. This may speak to his upbringing. 3) He's at the end of his tether, and he's lashing out.
I like to think it's a combination of 2 and 3. I agree with Gina--he seems to be a concerned teacher and a pretty effective one. By book 6, I think he's also severely stressed. My take is that the much-debated conversation in the forest is about death. When Severus says that he doesn't want to do it any more, I took him at his word--that the spying and the prospect of DD's death had become so overwhelming that he was not going to honor the unbreakable vow. I believe that some of Snape's behavior, notably toward Harry and Sirius, stems from the stress (and stress is much too tame a word) that he's feeling. He feels unfairly put-upon, and he's reacting at the expense of the people around him, who he perceives as having an easier time with the whole LV experience. (Can one be fairly put-upon? Probably not.) Even Harry, who has to face LV in the end, doesn't have the daily pressure of the spying or the potential of DD's blood on his hands. Though he doesn't often show otherwise, Snape's emotions can't possibly be on an even keel.
I think the social acceptability of harassing children is somewhat generational. When I was growing up in the 60's, it was acceptable for neighbors to harshly scold, possibly even slap, kids. Certainly it was common in private schools; I witnessed it several times. People were weird back then about teasing kids, too--the bogeyman will get you sort of thing. Now I'm the mother of school-age kids, and I can see that the world has decidedly turned. People are far more careful and conservative when dealing with children. And, like most moms, if any adult ever hit one of my kids, I'd make LV look like the Easter Bunny
As an aside on the subject of harsh teachers, I recall a hilarious story told by a former boss about a teacher in his all-boy's high school who was known for pulling out (and thereby destroying) extraneous papers that were sticking out of lockers. One kid put a ball of yarn in his. Naturally, when the teacher pulled on it, it keep coming and coming, embarrassing and enraging him. (This may be the teacher's Worst Memory.) The kid, of course, went around asking if anyone had seen his sweater.
Magic Words - Apr 15, 2006 4:22 pm (#1767 of 2969)
Isn't there a scene in.... I think it's OotP.... where Snape deliberately spills Harry's potion so he can give it a failing grade? This may be my biggest issue with the argument that he's actually relatively fair but misrepresented. If anyone knows the part I'm talking about, do you remember any of the larger context? I'd like to think he was under a lot of pressure at that time too, so we could go with winlia's option #3.
Winlia, I like your interpretation of Snape's attitude towards Sirius in OotP. From his point of view, he's doing all the most dangerous work while Sirius gets to sit home. No wonder it frustrates him.
TwinklingBlueEyes - Apr 15, 2006 5:19 pm (#1768 of 2969)
Edited Apr 15, 2006 6:21 pm
"I never had a teacher who used threats like that."
"Snape was trying to motivate Neville into paying attention."
"JKR even said that Snape was a truly horrible person."
Maybe JKR has rolled up many of the not fair, hurtful things of human nature and mankind into Snape's character and by her use of Snape's blunt, seemingly abusive, mean ways, uses him to show children, (and remind us older children), that NOTHING about life is Fair?
Edit: But maybe she also shows what someone who is backed into a corner what lengths someone will go to in order to win a war and thus save their own skin?
...toddles off muttering to self, nothing in life is fair...
Choices - Apr 15, 2006 5:19 pm (#1769 of 2969)
I just finished re-reading POA and it still mystifies me why Snape made excuses for what Harry, Ron and Hermione did to him in the Shrieking Shack. He tells Fudge they were "confunded". That would have been a perfect opportunity to get them into big trouble and he didn't do it.
TwinklingBlueEyes - Apr 15, 2006 5:23 pm (#1770 of 2969)
Choices? Can you see Snape admitting three "kids" caught him off guard and bested him.
It might not read well in his Order of Merlin...
Choices - Apr 15, 2006 5:28 pm (#1771 of 2969)
You are totally correct TBE - his ego overcame his desire to get Harry expelled.
Magic Words - Apr 15, 2006 6:36 pm (#1772 of 2969)
Could he have believed they were confunded? If he thought they had a reason to honestly believe Black, that would mean he suspected Black was innocent and still wanted to give him to the dementors. I've reread that part of PoA and I think it's quite possible that he never heard or saw anything to make him question what really happened.
Gina R Snape - Apr 15, 2006 6:56 pm (#1773 of 2969)
Snape enters the shrieking shack eager to catch Black, fearful of Lupin's potential state from lack of taking his wolfsbane potion, and not knowing Peter Pettigrew's involvement in the death of the Potters (unless we learn otherwise regarding Snape's prior knowledge of Pettigrew in the seventh book).
Though I have no doubt he would have experienced great pleasure at the sight of Black being fed to the dementors, his primary purpose for running into the shack was to catch Black and Lupin and protect the children. He's knocked out before any revelations regarding Pettigrew emerge, and awakens to find the children in need of safety and to witness Harry's patronus. Yes, he wanted an Order of Merlin. Yes, he was furious that Black got away. But I think he was also extremely concerned abou the children and if he did not believe they were under a confundus charm then he would have to explain his actions and their actions in some other way because surely he knew the children would have mentioned Snape being knocked out. Since there was no possible way for him to believe Black was telling the truth about his innocence, and equally no possible way for him to think the children would want to voluntarily protect an escaped criminal known to have homocidal impulses (don't forget Snape believed Black capable of murder at age 15 with the whole Lupin incident), I feel reasonably assured that the only explanation HE could find for the whole mess was a confundus charm, and reported what he believed to be true.
TwinklingBlueEyes - Apr 15, 2006 7:14 pm (#1774 of 2969)
My take was "Could he have believed they were confunded?" He professed they were confunded to cover the fact three "students" overcame him. Seems to me we heard the confunded excuse at the hosp. ward and Snape trying to cover why he was there, and why he failed to Fudge. Just my 2 knuts>
winlia - Apr 15, 2006 7:25 pm (#1775 of 2969)
Having been confronted with the transformed Lupin might have been enough to make him want to just put the whole incident behind him. He may have been too rattle to get his story straight and foster the expulsion.
One thing about Snape possibly being cruel--if indeed he is, he's constrained by rules and conventions of Hogwarts. Maybe he can't be as cruel as he would like to be, although I hope that's not the case.
HungarianHorntail11 - Apr 15, 2006 7:32 pm (#1776 of 2969)
his primary purpose for running into the shack was to catch Black and Lupin
How did Snape know Black was in the shack?
Weeny Owl - Apr 15, 2006 7:37 pm (#1777 of 2969)
I do think that Snape honestly would love to have students who were eager to learn. There is also the possibility that if students would stop being dunderheads it would make Snape's professional life somewhat easier.
People are rarely one thing or the other; most of us are a mixture. I see Snape as a mixture. He leans toward being sadistic, he enjoys using his razor-sharp tongue, and he certainly enjoys deducting points and giving detentions. One thing he doesn't do, however, is abuse any of the students physically. Even with Harry, he's never resorted to physical punishments, the "Worst Memory" chapter aside. He could have arranged for Filch to have a go at Harry, but that didn't happen.
He may be verbally abusive, he may knock potions off his desk so that he can give their creators zeros, and he may delight in keeping students from doing things they enjoy (Harry and quidditch in HBP, for instance), but his lack of using physical means to intimidate the students is one reason why I do believe he is ultimately a good guy.
winlia - Apr 15, 2006 7:48 pm (#1778 of 2969)
I agree, Weeny Owl, that were he to start physical abuse (as opposed to self defense), he would have to move solidly into the evil camp, because the message that being beaten upon by adults is somehow justified would be unacceptable for young readers--and distasteful for older ones.
Dobby Socks - Apr 15, 2006 8:35 pm (#1779 of 2969)
Edited Apr 15, 2006 9:58 pm
I'm not saying Snape is guilty of causing serious psychological damage to his students, nor am I condoning (to use an extreme example) Dolores Umbridge planning to use the Cruciatus Curse against her students, but I have to say that psychological abuse is often worse than physical abuse. A black eye or a broken rib goes away fairly quickly. A bruised psyche can take dozens of years to heal, if it ever completely does. This is something that's often not recognized because the damage from physical abuse is so much easier to see.
I just don't see that as a dividing line that would define someone as "good" or "evil."
EDIT: For instance, I imagine whatever Tom Riddle did to the younger children in the cave would be an instance of extreme psychological abuse, whereas Malfoy breaking Harry's nose while he is immobilized under the invisibility cloak on the Hogwarts Express would obviously be physical abuse (or just physical violence since there is no age difference or expectation of trust between the two.) I'm trying to think of an instance of equivalent violence that is aimed at a child by an adult, but can't quickly recall one from the books. The effects of the earlier example are far worse. Ok... Voldemort's use of Crucio against Harry in the graveyard in GoF. The cave scene still seems far worse to me. Harry is able to recover from the physical torture fairly easily.
Saracene - Apr 15, 2006 8:55 pm (#1780 of 2969)
While I'm aware of "Harry filter" I don't think I'd ever find Snape's treatment of Neville anything less than deplorable no matter through whose eyes we see the scene. Sorry, but for me it really is one of the lowest points of Snape's character.
Up until the end of OotP I was pretty much in full agreement with Harry as far as Snape was concerned, actually.
I also thought that the bit in the fifth book where it says something along the way of, "whatever Dumbledore said Harry was never going to forgive Snape... never..." is pretty much a huge neon sign saying, "oh yes Harry you WILL",
TwinklingBlueEyes - Apr 15, 2006 9:10 pm (#1781 of 2969)
All definitions of what constitutes "abuse" aside. Harry has overcome 11 years, plus the taunts of his own classmates, again and again.
Why? How?
Does Snape know how "special" Harry is and is just resentful in petty ways?
Solitaire - Apr 15, 2006 9:19 pm (#1782 of 2969)
Edited Apr 15, 2006 10:21 pm
LOL It is so interesting to read how differently people can interpret things. While I can understand how Wynnleaf thinks it is perfectly fair for Ron to have to give Malfoy his neatly chopped roots in exchange for the imprecisely chopped ones, I can also understand Ron and Harry's perspective. They are looking at Malfoy's so-called injury from a different perspective. First of all, they know he disobeyed Hagrid when dealing with Buckbeak. They also know he is attempting to get Hagrid sacked, which Malfoy pretty much says in the same scene. They also know that Malfoy is faking his "pain," which he also pretty much confesses.
As for Snape knowing everything that goes on in his classroom, I agree. That is why his behavior with regard to the Trio and Malfoy is so continually despicable and unfair. In just about every exchange between Malfoy and any of the Trio, Malfoy has been the initiator of the hostilities ... yet Harry and Ron tend to be the ones who gets caught and punished. Snape continues to let Malfoy get away with everything. Boy, he sure does play his part of pretending to dislike Harry convincingly. **wink**
I find Snape amusing when he locks horns with other adults, and sometimes even when he does so with Harry, but when it comes to an adult of Snape's years bullying children, mostly I find it pathetic.
Bravo, Mrs. Brisbee! You are right on the money there!
As far as the difference between Snape's and Umbridge's cruelty to the kids, I almost find Snape's more damaging. Umbridge's cruelty is known and acknowledged by other teachers. Snape's is not. Umbridge's cruelty causes physical pain, which is despicable. Snape's cruelty may not cause physical damage, but it certainly does cause mental and emotional pain, and it is of a much longer duration. In some ways, I think his forms of torture are more difficult to bear, because others tend to blow them off. This is one reason Sirius was so important to Harry; he understood and validated Harry's suffering at the hand of Snape.
I kind of see Snape as one who was probably abused (at least emotionally) as a child. I think he is repeating the pattern by abusing those who cannot fight back. In his memory, the Marauders were never appropriately punished for the "crimes" of their youth. I believe he is trying to even the score a little by letting the abusive Draco & Co. get away with their own "crimes" without being punished.
Even though Snape walked free after Voldemort's vaporization, he is still just as stunted as Sirius, who walked into Azkaban and stayed there for twelve years. He has carried around his little catalog of all the wrongs done to him for years. Personally, I think he was mad that James died and Sirius went to prison (and eventually died) because it took away his opportunity for revenge. He is now paying back the only one he can pay, who is at his mercy ten months of every year--Harry.
To those who jump to Snape's defense ... I have no doubt that the Marauders tormented Snape at Hogwarts. Knowing Snape as we do, however, I also have no doubt that he managed to give as good as he got, because I can't see him letting anyone get away with too much.
I know most of you do not agree with me. I don't expect you to agree. It's just been a long time since I've had a really good "Snape Vent," and I felt it was time!
Solitaire
winlia - Apr 15, 2006 9:23 pm (#1783 of 2969)
I don't disagree, Dobby Socks. I've read these books to my eight-year-old, though. I tell my kids that it's unacceptable for an adult to hit them (or engage in other physical abuse), and that they should tell us should anything like that ever happens. I wouldn't want to see the books contridict that by describing a good guy hitting a kid. Not that there aren't people in the real world who do brave things yet still engage in domestic violence, I'm just not ready to explain it to my son yet, at least not in the context of books that he loves.
I don't want anyone to psycologically abuse my kids either, but those explanations have to be dealt with on a case by case basis. The HP books are wonderful for fostering those discussions. It's hard to explain, but the psycological stuff has more resonance for my son (I haven't read the books to my daughter yet, she's younger) than the physical stuff, undoubtedly because he can imagine being embarassed in class but doesn't see himself as a likely target for violence, like the receipient of a crucio curse.
In talking to my son, I characterize Snape as someone who is sometimes unkind, and I go on to say that it takes all kinds of people to make the world go round, and you have to learn to deal with them. Then I go on to the "there are better ways of dealing with people than to humiliate them, so don't emulate this guy" discussion. Sometimes I progress to the "this guy is a jerk and the kids should learn not to take everything he says to heart" line. And you're exactly right, should Snape's verbal abuse escalate, I would tell my son that I advocate the kids' going to their parents and the parents lobbying to get him fired.
Dobby Socks - Apr 15, 2006 9:31 pm (#1784 of 2969)
Good point Saracene:
---“I also thought that the bit in the fifth book where it says something along the way of, ‘whatever Dumbledore said Harry was never going to forgive Snape... never...’ is pretty much a huge neon sign saying, ‘oh yes Harry you WILL’,” ---
Which brings us back around to the forgiveness/trust theme again…
Incidentally, I also disliked Snape and didn’t trust him until my first read of OoP (although I did occasionally appreciate some aspects of his character… and, no, I actually hadn’t seen the movies yet at this point, just to clear up that always present issue… I read books 1-6 and then saw the movies.) I do attribute most of this to the “Harry Filter,” though. On rereads, there are things about Snape that have made me uncomfortable, but not like they did the first time. Could be the ability to see past the “Harry filter,” could be the hindsight afforded by OoP and HBP. I’m not sure.
I’m still trying to make up my mind about his treatment of the students.
winlia - Apr 15, 2006 9:49 pm (#1785 of 2969)
Solitare,
As tickled as I am by Snape the fictional character, I don't think that I would have much use for him as a coworker or next-door neighbor, and I think that disconnect is what sparks some of the disagreement on this thread.
In the classroom, the ideal would be for the kids to see him for what he often is, a petty bully, and not be damaged by what transpires.
journeymom - Apr 15, 2006 11:05 pm (#1786 of 2969)
Just this one note, didn't Dumbledore specifically take corporal punishment away as a choice for the teachers? (Or did I simply read this in a fanfic? Quite possible.) If that's the case, it doesn't necessarily indicate any positive virtue for Snape if he doesn't cane the students.
I think Sirius literally said 'Snape gave as good as he got'.
wynnleaf - Apr 16, 2006 6:56 am (#1787 of 2969)
Lots to cover since I last posted
"Sirius literally said 'Snape gave as good as he got'." I'm not sure that I'd trust any more of what Sirius has to say about Snape, than I'd trust what Snape had to say about James and Sirius. I'm still struck by the fact that Harry didn't run across a bunch of cards on Snape in the box of detentions that he was working on for detention in HBP. Some speculate that Snape removed his, but I don't think someone as rules oriented as Snape would do that.
I am interested that many seemed to take my comments on the Potions class events in POA as meaning that there were fair explanations for all Snape did. I tried to say repeatedly that was not the case. I was not trying to say that Snape never did mean things. I was trying to point out that JKR uses the pov of the narration to make what Snape does seem a lot worse than it may truly be.
I'll have to write more later, having no time right now.
Soul Search - Apr 16, 2006 7:25 am (#1788 of 2969)
Edited Apr 16, 2006 8:27 am
Snape's character is consistent over the six books.
From "Ah Yes," ... "Harry Potter. Our new -- celebrity/" in the first potions class in SS to "DON'T --" ... "CALL ME COWARD!" at the end of HBP, Snape treats Harry, and everyone, students and adults, the same. While Snape is the same, my view of him does change. Milestones in my view of Snape are: In SS, Quirrel telling Harry that Snape tried to save Harry from falling off his broom; in PoA when Snape threatens to take Lupin and Sirius to the dementors; in GoF when Snape agrees to undertake the role Dumbledore asks of him; the pensive scene in OotP, and Harry's and Snape's running dialog at the end of HBP.
I conclude that Snape is disappointed with his own life and uses the "just hit them with a bigger stick" teaching method to try and correct his own mistakes he sees in his students. (Actually, teaching is something all the Hogwarts staff could learn better. The best teacher I have seen was Lupin. Maybe Crouch Jr./Moody comes in second.)
I don't think it was intentional, but Snape's treatment of Harry has prepared Harry for life. He handled Umbridge better for having known Snape.
And, again not planned, Snape's treatment of Harry made his double agent role with Voldemort more credible (Witness the Spinner's End dialog with Belatrix.)
All this seems to be building to the last milestone when Harry, and we, learn "Why Dumbledore trusted Snape." Snape will be a pivotal character in book seven.
Solitaire - Apr 16, 2006 8:29 am (#1789 of 2969)
Edited Apr 16, 2006 9:31 am
Snape treats Harry, and everyone, students and adults, the same.
I really disagree with this statement. Snape may hate everyone equally, but he definitely does not treat them all the same. He consistently favors his own Slytherin kids and undermines the Gryffindors, the Trio more than anyone and Harry particularly. His people skills are so poor that he is incapable of mastering any feelings of dislike, and his favoritism is positively blatant.
I will agree that Snape may not like certain traits of his own that he sees in students. I think this is particularly true of Hermione. As smart as Snape is, I am willing to bet he was the know-it-all of his own year and was probably berating Hermione the way he felt he had been berated ... although probably not in Potions. I don't see Sluggy as the nasty type, although I can see him creating plenty of ill will in Snape by ignoring him for membership in the Slug Club. Snape is clearly jealous of people who are "celebrities," isn't he?
When I am feeling generous toward Snape, I can sometimes imagine that he is so nasty to Harry & Co. out of frustration at having to sort of "suck up" to Draco, in order to fool Lucius and the other DEs. My common sense, however, soon gets the better of me, and I see Snape for the truly miserable human being he is. (Perhaps "misery loves company" is his credo?) I still vacillate over Snape's loyalties ... and I probably will until the bitter end, when all is revealed.
Solitaire
Weeny Owl - Apr 16, 2006 9:00 am (#1790 of 2969)
I know psychological abuse is often worse than physical abuse, but it isn't the impact on the target that I'm talking about.
It's just how far a person would go to deal with someone he hated, and I don't think Snape is quite in the arena of a true Death Eater or Voldemort. He didn't do the things in HBP that he could've done while escaping from Hogwarts with Draco. He could easily have used many painful spells, yet he just blocked the ones Harry was casting instead of countering with his own Sectumsempra, for example. He did lose his cool at one point, but considering what had happened and what was going on at the time, it isn't surprising. Even Harry ended up being so angry at Bella that he cast an Unforgivable on her.
Just this one note, didn't Dumbledore specifically take corporal punishment away as a choice for the teachers? (Or did I simply read this in a fanfic? Quite possible.) If that's the case, it doesn't necessarily indicate any positive virtue for Snape if he doesn't cane the students.
It does indicate a positive because while Umbridge was running the school, she gave Filch permission to whip students. I'm sure she would have been delighted to sign a permission slip allowing Harry to be punished that way, but Snape never tried to get back at Harry for looking in the Pensieve except to knock a potion on the floor. He could easily have come up with a reason to send Harry to Filch.
I'm not saying that any of it makes Snape a nice person. I'm just saying that it gives some reasons why he isn't necessarily on the bad guys' side.
There is a very good essay on the Lexicon about where Spinner's End might be located (in the Manchester/Salford area of northern England).
As for the socially less-adept kids... JKR seems to favour them in Harry's generation. But certainly Snape might have been one of those kids in his time yet she has a very strong leaning towards the Marauders who were the popular kids at the time. One of these days maybe we'll get an entire treatment of that era from JKR.
I shudder to think how the fandom would react if Snape were left ambiguous to the very end. JKR would have no peace, I tell you.. NO PEACE at all! Heh, heh.
Magic Words - Apr 14, 2006 7:34 pm (#1752 of 2969)
Books on the Marauders would be an absolute dream come true. We can always hope.
I think the Snape issue needs to be resolved, and I for one would be pretty disappointed if he turned out to be evil. Even apart from my dislike of evil characters and of being proven wrong. The very thing I like about Snape is that he's so incredibly complex: misfit "half-blood prince" turned anti-Muggle turned Death Eater turned spy killed Dumbledore and who knows what he's doing now. And of course, the biggest mysteries we're left with are 1) why he switched sides if he's so bitter and hateful and 2)why he would do what he did in HBP if he's on our side. But if we assume he's merely a Death Eater with great Occlumency and acting skills, there are no mysteries left. He's exactly what he appears to be. And that's just no fun.
Dobby Socks - Apr 14, 2006 11:45 pm (#1753 of 2969)
I don’t think JKR will leave us dangling where Snape is concerned. She’s put too much into his character and, I think, plotted his character development out very carefully and purposefully over 6 books (in terms of how much we discover and when). All the most crucial questions now seem to be hinging on him. Besides, yeah, I think there would be riots the world over if it were left unresolved.
And, Gina, it may be my own delusion, but I think Jo might have a greater affinity with Severus than she lets on. The Marauders are shown to be more and more flawed, while Snape becomes a more sympathetic character. Of course, this fits very well with Harry discovering as he matures that the world isn’t as black and white as he originally perceived it. Hmmm… Two more highly questionable pieces of circumstantial evidence: 1. According to her website (which I think is considered canon,) JKR was a Smiths fan at one point in her life. Disregarding any debate as to the location of Spinner’s End, etc., Snape’s particular wit and sense of humor have a bit in common with Morrissey’s (at least to my ear.) 2.) Nevermind, I found the appropriate thread and I’ll bring it back here if I think it’s relevant. And I solemnly swear I will never mention the Smiths again, just thought it was interesting and perhaps not as frivolous as it seems.
HH11 and journeymom, the way Harry “dismissed” Kreacher after he completed his Draco task makes me extremely uncomfortable. The wording is almost identical to Sirius’ in OoP. I’m glad you brought this up HH11. Can’t believe it, but I had forgotten about it.
Please correct me if I’m wrong about this. I know Kreacher is very taken with the Malfoys, but doesn’t Bella have the most prominent spot in his little shrine in OoP? I had the feeling that it was Bella who he worshipped the most. If there’s a Narcissa/Bella split in book 7 in terms of Voldemort loyalty, if Snape is with Narcissa and Draco, and if Kreacher is able to move among those three, plus Bella, and Harry, he could wreak quite a bit of havoc. From the way Kreacher let Harry know that he had covered all possible loopholes in his instructions to tail Draco, I’m not convinced that a House Elf has to show complete loyalty to his master, especially if he feels that his true loyalties should lie elsewhere.
And hello to journeymom and winlia. I’m new, too, and my head is spinning with all of these posts. I’ve been lurking since August or September and have barely made a dent in all the backreading. I think it’s virtually impossible not to touch upon things that have already been discussed, even if you use the search key obsessively.
Gina R Snape - Apr 15, 2006 5:18 am (#1754 of 2969)
Edited Apr 15, 2006 6:20 am
I've been coming to the Lex since October 2002 and I can definitely affirm that themes get repeated. It's just not possible to remean repeat-free.
And I absolutely agree, Snape's sense of humour is a lot like Morrissey's! Only, Snape would never allow himself to appear wallowing in self-pity. Though zapping flies certainly iindicates some prior depressive tendencies. (As do some other traits, and if you are really ambitious you can do a search for the psychiatric assessment of Snape I wrote up a few summers ago). JKR did state at one point she was a Smiths fan, btw. I remember that quite well.
We definitely learned in CoS that house elves can be loyal to the letter and still not be loyal to their masters in spirit. It's just that we like Dobby, and not Kreacher, so we are more apt to think of him as "doing the right thing" than "being disloyal" as it were.
wynnleaf - Apr 15, 2006 6:15 am (#1755 of 2969)
Edited Apr 15, 2006 7:29 am
Dobby Socks, I'm in the dark on this. Could you please tell me what your reference to Morrissey and Smith is about? I'm clueless. Who are they? Or Gina, if you know?
On another note, I mentioned in a recent post how we learn about Severus through the narration of an adolescent's point of view. I thought it might be useful to give everyone an example of how this works to distort the reader's view of what Severus is like. While there are some really excellent examples in HBP, I'd like to use an early one in POA. If anyone's interested, I'd suggest going back and reading the first half of the chapter "The Boggart in the Wardrobe." The first half of the chapter describes a particular Potions class where the reader is lead to believe Severus is being grossly unfair, nasty, mean, and cruel. But is he really?
Draco's arm is bound in bandages and a sling and he claims he can't cut his daisy roots. Snape tells Ron to cut them for him. Ron angrily chops the roots up in an uneven fashion. Draco complains and Snape insists that Ron exchange his carefully cut roots with the uneven ones he cut for Draco. This is presented as though it is highly unfair. In fact, it is quite fair. Even if Ron didn't think Draco was badly hurt, he had been told to cut the roots and then he deliberately cut them quite incorrectly in a class where precision is everything to obtaining a good result. Snape telling Ron to switch roots was fair, but was described as though it was unfair.
Then Draco asked for help on skinning his shrivelfig. Snape tells Harry to do it. Harry acts as though Snape asked him to do that out of loathing, but in fact it was a completely reasonable thing to ask him to do.
Later, Snape checks Nevilles potion. Snape ladles out some and comments on the color a couple of times. It's obviously been done very incorrectly. Snape says, "Orange. Tell me, boy, does anything penetrate that thick skull of yours? Didn't you hear me say, quite clearly, that only one rat spleen was needed? Didn't I state plainly that a dash of leech juice would suffice? What do I have to do to make you understand, Longbottom?" After these remarks, Neville is pink and trembling and on the verge of tears.
Okay, the "thick skull" part is mean. But the comments after that are not much different from what I've heard out of many teachers over the years when talking to a student who never seems to pay attention to directions. Remember, Neville isn't stupid and he's not presented as having a learning disability or whatever. He's scared. But really, he's a lot more scared than any other of the students. Is this truly Snape's fault that Neville is far more scared of him than most of the students? Partly, maybe. But Neville also has a lot of insecurities that are naturally going to come out around an intimidating teacher. Was Snape being mean? Yes. But it's not dramatically mean.
Okay, next we've got Hermione helping Neville. In the scene Hermione first asks to help Neville and is told a definite, "No." Like I said, Neville isn't learning disabled or a "slower" student. He's scared. Snape often tells Hermione not to help Neville, but she consistently defies Snape to do it anyway. Hey, I learned way back in 2nd grade that I wasn't supposed to help another student with their work unless it was okayed by the teacher. But Hermione keeps going. She basically does Neville's work for him. The fact that Snape doesn't want her to help Neville is presented as terribly unfair. It's not unfair at all.
After Neville's potion (with major Hermione help) is finally completed correctly, Snape actually takes 5 points away because Hermione helped him. Ron acts like this is awful to take points "because the potion was all right," but in fact the points were taken because of Hermione's complete defiance of what Snape told her -- not because the potion was right.
That leaves the only other "nastiness" of Snape's in the scene where he threatens to try Neville's potion on Trevor. Neville is terrified because Snape says they'll test the potion on Trevor and if it's a bad potion, "his toad is likely to be poisoned." 1. Why is Neville always bringing his toad to class? No one else brings pets to class. Should Neville be bringing a toad that tends to escape to Potions class? 2. Did he actually harm Trevor? Yes, he gave the toad the potion, but since it was moments before established that Snape could tell a good Shrinking Solution potion from a bad one just by sight, he likely already knew whether it was going to work correctly. 3. Finally, this is not a threat I'm unfamiliar with. At our home, my husband regularly threatens all sorts of bodily harm to our ridiculously dim witted cocker spaniel. Some of our younger children seem to believe that Dad will actually do away with the dog one day. In actuality, he would never harm the rather stupid dog. Is Snape doing the same thing when he tosses out these threats to students and Trevor? I wouldn't be surprised.
So that takes us through that entire scene. Except for referring to Neville's "thick skull" and saying he would give Trevor an incorrectly done Shrinking Solution that would poison him (which he doesn't do), no other action of Snape's is particularly questionable. Yet the entire scene is written as though every one of his words and actions was mean, unfair, nasty, etc.
Now I'm NOT saying Snape is really a nice guy. I'm not saying he doesn't do and say some mean things. But my point is that the writing is intentionally trying to make us see him in as bad a light as possible, even when his actions and words don't necessarily warrant it.
rambkowalczyk - Apr 15, 2006 6:40 am (#1756 of 2969)
Wynnleaf, I agree that with the examples (and there are other examples as well) you have provided, that Snape's actions are often misunderstood and that if seen from another point of view are not nasty or unfair. But, to be fair, why did Snape have Harry and Ron help Draco. Why not use Nott or Zabini to help Draco.
In GOF after Draco cursed Hermiones' teeth to grow, I couldn't find a neutral explanation as to why Snape further insulted Hermione.(He commented that she didn't really look any different.) Maybe Snape was stressed out because of Moody breathing down his neck he just lost it and took it out on Hermione.
Gina R Snape - Apr 15, 2006 7:39 am (#1757 of 2969)
Edited Apr 15, 2006 8:50 am
Wynnleaf, oh how I love that scene. It is to me so hysterically funny for just the reasons you lay out. To me, there is no doubt he's picking on Harry and Ron by assigning Draco to them. But aside from that, it is indeed their own actions of defiance that get them in trouble. Snape is sharp enough to know EXACTLY what is going on in his classroom at all times. This scene establishes his observation skills, sense of justice, and understanding of the interpersonal dynamics taking place in the classroom. He takes potions seriously and wants the kids to as well. He's not going to treat the trio (or Neville) with kid gloves. But I don't see him as being overly cruel either.
As for The Smiths, they were an alternative rock band from Manchester, UK who gained huge popularity in Britain and very large cult status in the States (but never a top 10 hit in the States to my knowledge). You may know one of their most popular songs "How Soon Is Now" as it was reworked and made the theme song to the tv show "Charmed." A quick google search came up with this fansite that seems a decent overview.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Ramb, was it you who once posted that you didn't trust Snape precisely because his loyalties may be with DD but for the wrong reasons? I am trying to figure out who posted that. I've joined the Snapecast team and we are looking for someone to be a third host that enjoys discussing Snape and can cogently argue why he is evil without getting hysterical, and who can get along with the Snape-is-good fans.
ETA amazon.com has their best of album vol 1 and 2 with soundclips. Vol 1 [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Vol 2 [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
wynnleaf - Apr 15, 2006 8:04 am (#1758 of 2969)
Edited Apr 15, 2006 9:05 am
rambkowalczyk.
My point was not to say that Severus' actions and words can be taken incorrectly by readers, or differently if seen from another point of view. While that's true, the actual point I was trying to make is that JKR is intentionally writing scenes so that the reader will see him in the worst possible light. The scene I outlined puts makes the reader feel that Snape is being very unfair, cruel, etc., when he is in fact only being just a little bit mean. The point then, is that JKR is intentionally misleading the reader about Snape. Hmm, I think someone else has called this the "unreliable narrator" device. If JKR is intentionally misleading us regarding Snape's degree of cruelty, meanness, etc., there's a reason for it. Why would she want us to think he's worse than he is?
I certainly agree that Severus can say some mean things and the one to Hermione about her teeth is probably one of the worst. One the other hand, this is a girl that he clearly thinks of as a know-it-all, she (as I mentioned earlier) consistently defies him about helping Neville, and she helped in stunning him the previous year in the Shrieking Shack. He should not have said that to her -- it hurt her feelings of course. He was being mean.
But for every truly one mean thing Snape says, there are several more things that the writer makes appear to be mean or unfair, that are actually not so bad at all. JKR is intentionally trying to get the reader to think ill of Snape, even when he's not doing anything wrong.
In a very interesting twist of literary devices, JKR makes a clear distinction in HBP between Harry's view of Snape's responses, actions, voice tone, etc., compared to a bit more impersonal narrative "voice." For instance, in HBP, JKR is careful to say that it is Harry who thinks Snape tone of voice in talking about the Dark Arts is caressing. Whereas, she has Hermione not notice that kind of tone in his voice, and instead compare Snape's speech favorably to Harry's DA comments the year before. But if you're not careful, when you read that bit in HBP, your inner "ear" can "hear" Snape's speech with Harry's perception, simply because the narrator told the reader that Harry thought Snape's voice sounded like that.
Gina, thanks for the info and links.
Mrs Brisbee - Apr 15, 2006 8:15 am (#1759 of 2969)
wynnleaf, you left out part of that Potion scene. After Hermione asks Snape if she can help Neville and he says No, Snape tells Neville he will feed some of the potion to Trevor at the end of the lesson, "to see what happens". That's when Neville, out of desperation and fear, asks Hermione to help him. Was it academically wrong of Hermione to help Neville? Yes. Morally wrong? I don't think so. I would have thought less of Hermione if she did nothing to help her friend after the teacher had threatened to harm his pet. I never had a teacher who used threats like that.
I find Snape amusing when he locks horns with other adults, and sometimes even when he does so with Harry, but when it comes to an adult of Snape's years bullying children, mostly I find it pathetic.
Gina R Snape - Apr 15, 2006 8:17 am (#1760 of 2969)
You're welcome wynnleaf.
Not only does JKR make a distinction in point of view regarding Snape in HBP, she makes what I would call a real, tangible contrast in OOP between Snape's petty meanness and sarcastic humour but overall interest in the students with Umbridge who is cruel, disinterested in student learning (or perhaps active interest in them NOT learning) and unflinching in her enjoyment of physical torture. Plus, sending the dementors was nothing short of homicidal. Snape has NEVER displayed this level of cruelty to anyone, not even Neville. And the AK of DD is up for debate, unlike Umbridge who was unquestionably evil with a sickly sweet smile.
wynnleaf - Apr 15, 2006 8:58 am (#1761 of 2969)
Mrs Brisbee, thanks for clarifying the scene. However, in fact Hermione helps Neville most of the time and that just happens to be the one time Trevor gets threatened. Do they really think Snape will poison Trevor?? Maybe some kids do. But think about it. Hermione is supposed to be the smartest kid in her year. She's in her 3rd year. What evidence do they have that Snape will actually poison anyone? If we believe the degree of Snape's cruelty that the narration tries to trick us into believing, than I can see thinking he might kill Trevor. But if we see that in fact practically everything else he does in the scene is quite fair, then we'd question whether or not he'd really kill Trevor. Like I said, I've known of a number of people who will make these kinds of comments (like my husband threatening bodily injury to our dog) and most people gradually pick up on the fact that this is their manner of speaking and, even if the person is in fact angry, they're not serious about what they're saying. I guess I'm doubting that Hermione isn't bright enough to figure that out. She's clearly shown that she'd help Neville anyway (many times) and Trevor has little to do with it, nor does Snape's specific instructions to her not to help him.
Please remember, I'm not trying to excuse Snape's being mean -- when he is mean. I'm trying to point out that JKR is intentionally trying to make him seem worse than he is by making actions and words that really are only a bit bad, or not bad at all, seem over-the-top cruel, vindictive, etc.
Gina R Snape - Apr 15, 2006 9:06 am (#1762 of 2969)
I might add that Snape had the potions antidote at the ready. If he really wanted to be cruel, he'd have left Trevor as a tadpole and dropped him on the floor. Maybe even stepped on him and smiled.
Snape was trying to motivate Neville into paying attention. Clearly general lecture and browbeating wasn't working, so he used a tactic Neville might find more of a personal incentive to get him to pay proper attention.
Weeny Owl - Apr 15, 2006 11:56 am (#1763 of 2969)
Draco's arm is bound in bandages and a sling and he claims he can't cut his daisy roots. Snape tells Ron to cut them for him.
Then Draco asked for help on skinning his shrivelfig.
No, those aren't fair at all. Snape had plenty of other people around who could have helped Draco. People from Draco and Snape's own house. He deliberately chose to make Ron and Harry be house-elves to Draco's lord of the manor.
I don't really dislike Snape, per se, but I think his nastiness isn't some hidden nobility but just plain nastiness. I think he's cruel because he can be. He likes power. He likes tormenting people. I just feel he truly wants Voldemort gone and is working toward that goal, but in no way do I see his behavior as anything but sadism. He likes hurting people.
Regardless of whether or not he came back to the Order's side, he initially became a Death Eater, and even if he's a half-blood, he still called Lily Evans a Mudblood. He isn't a nice person. JKR even said that Snape was a truly horrible person.
Mrs Brisbee - Apr 15, 2006 12:29 pm (#1764 of 2969)
What Weeny Owl said.
Gina R Snape - Apr 15, 2006 1:28 pm (#1765 of 2969)
It's refreshing to see people who like Snape for his nasty old self.
But don't you think deep deeeeep (very) deep down there is some part of him that actually wants the kids to learn? I do. I especially loved the scene in HBP where he explains to Draco that Crabbe and Goyle have detention so they can learn because they will NEED to have knowledge, being a bully and DE recruit will not be enough to survive on.
winlia - Apr 15, 2006 3:28 pm (#1766 of 2969)
Edited Apr 15, 2006 4:30 pm
I agree that many of the comments of Snape's that Harry views as mean are appropriate or, at least, neutral. There are a few--like the one about Hermoine's teeth--that are pretty nasty, though. To me, Snape's behavior in these instances stems from some combination of three things: 1) He's cruel, and, heaven knows, there are people who are. 2) He doesn't know how to behave. This may speak to his upbringing. 3) He's at the end of his tether, and he's lashing out.
I like to think it's a combination of 2 and 3. I agree with Gina--he seems to be a concerned teacher and a pretty effective one. By book 6, I think he's also severely stressed. My take is that the much-debated conversation in the forest is about death. When Severus says that he doesn't want to do it any more, I took him at his word--that the spying and the prospect of DD's death had become so overwhelming that he was not going to honor the unbreakable vow. I believe that some of Snape's behavior, notably toward Harry and Sirius, stems from the stress (and stress is much too tame a word) that he's feeling. He feels unfairly put-upon, and he's reacting at the expense of the people around him, who he perceives as having an easier time with the whole LV experience. (Can one be fairly put-upon? Probably not.) Even Harry, who has to face LV in the end, doesn't have the daily pressure of the spying or the potential of DD's blood on his hands. Though he doesn't often show otherwise, Snape's emotions can't possibly be on an even keel.
I think the social acceptability of harassing children is somewhat generational. When I was growing up in the 60's, it was acceptable for neighbors to harshly scold, possibly even slap, kids. Certainly it was common in private schools; I witnessed it several times. People were weird back then about teasing kids, too--the bogeyman will get you sort of thing. Now I'm the mother of school-age kids, and I can see that the world has decidedly turned. People are far more careful and conservative when dealing with children. And, like most moms, if any adult ever hit one of my kids, I'd make LV look like the Easter Bunny
As an aside on the subject of harsh teachers, I recall a hilarious story told by a former boss about a teacher in his all-boy's high school who was known for pulling out (and thereby destroying) extraneous papers that were sticking out of lockers. One kid put a ball of yarn in his. Naturally, when the teacher pulled on it, it keep coming and coming, embarrassing and enraging him. (This may be the teacher's Worst Memory.) The kid, of course, went around asking if anyone had seen his sweater.
Magic Words - Apr 15, 2006 4:22 pm (#1767 of 2969)
Isn't there a scene in.... I think it's OotP.... where Snape deliberately spills Harry's potion so he can give it a failing grade? This may be my biggest issue with the argument that he's actually relatively fair but misrepresented. If anyone knows the part I'm talking about, do you remember any of the larger context? I'd like to think he was under a lot of pressure at that time too, so we could go with winlia's option #3.
Winlia, I like your interpretation of Snape's attitude towards Sirius in OotP. From his point of view, he's doing all the most dangerous work while Sirius gets to sit home. No wonder it frustrates him.
TwinklingBlueEyes - Apr 15, 2006 5:19 pm (#1768 of 2969)
Edited Apr 15, 2006 6:21 pm
"I never had a teacher who used threats like that."
"Snape was trying to motivate Neville into paying attention."
"JKR even said that Snape was a truly horrible person."
Maybe JKR has rolled up many of the not fair, hurtful things of human nature and mankind into Snape's character and by her use of Snape's blunt, seemingly abusive, mean ways, uses him to show children, (and remind us older children), that NOTHING about life is Fair?
Edit: But maybe she also shows what someone who is backed into a corner what lengths someone will go to in order to win a war and thus save their own skin?
...toddles off muttering to self, nothing in life is fair...
Choices - Apr 15, 2006 5:19 pm (#1769 of 2969)
I just finished re-reading POA and it still mystifies me why Snape made excuses for what Harry, Ron and Hermione did to him in the Shrieking Shack. He tells Fudge they were "confunded". That would have been a perfect opportunity to get them into big trouble and he didn't do it.
TwinklingBlueEyes - Apr 15, 2006 5:23 pm (#1770 of 2969)
Choices? Can you see Snape admitting three "kids" caught him off guard and bested him.
It might not read well in his Order of Merlin...
Choices - Apr 15, 2006 5:28 pm (#1771 of 2969)
You are totally correct TBE - his ego overcame his desire to get Harry expelled.
Magic Words - Apr 15, 2006 6:36 pm (#1772 of 2969)
Could he have believed they were confunded? If he thought they had a reason to honestly believe Black, that would mean he suspected Black was innocent and still wanted to give him to the dementors. I've reread that part of PoA and I think it's quite possible that he never heard or saw anything to make him question what really happened.
Gina R Snape - Apr 15, 2006 6:56 pm (#1773 of 2969)
Snape enters the shrieking shack eager to catch Black, fearful of Lupin's potential state from lack of taking his wolfsbane potion, and not knowing Peter Pettigrew's involvement in the death of the Potters (unless we learn otherwise regarding Snape's prior knowledge of Pettigrew in the seventh book).
Though I have no doubt he would have experienced great pleasure at the sight of Black being fed to the dementors, his primary purpose for running into the shack was to catch Black and Lupin and protect the children. He's knocked out before any revelations regarding Pettigrew emerge, and awakens to find the children in need of safety and to witness Harry's patronus. Yes, he wanted an Order of Merlin. Yes, he was furious that Black got away. But I think he was also extremely concerned abou the children and if he did not believe they were under a confundus charm then he would have to explain his actions and their actions in some other way because surely he knew the children would have mentioned Snape being knocked out. Since there was no possible way for him to believe Black was telling the truth about his innocence, and equally no possible way for him to think the children would want to voluntarily protect an escaped criminal known to have homocidal impulses (don't forget Snape believed Black capable of murder at age 15 with the whole Lupin incident), I feel reasonably assured that the only explanation HE could find for the whole mess was a confundus charm, and reported what he believed to be true.
TwinklingBlueEyes - Apr 15, 2006 7:14 pm (#1774 of 2969)
My take was "Could he have believed they were confunded?" He professed they were confunded to cover the fact three "students" overcame him. Seems to me we heard the confunded excuse at the hosp. ward and Snape trying to cover why he was there, and why he failed to Fudge. Just my 2 knuts>
winlia - Apr 15, 2006 7:25 pm (#1775 of 2969)
Having been confronted with the transformed Lupin might have been enough to make him want to just put the whole incident behind him. He may have been too rattle to get his story straight and foster the expulsion.
One thing about Snape possibly being cruel--if indeed he is, he's constrained by rules and conventions of Hogwarts. Maybe he can't be as cruel as he would like to be, although I hope that's not the case.
HungarianHorntail11 - Apr 15, 2006 7:32 pm (#1776 of 2969)
his primary purpose for running into the shack was to catch Black and Lupin
How did Snape know Black was in the shack?
Weeny Owl - Apr 15, 2006 7:37 pm (#1777 of 2969)
I do think that Snape honestly would love to have students who were eager to learn. There is also the possibility that if students would stop being dunderheads it would make Snape's professional life somewhat easier.
People are rarely one thing or the other; most of us are a mixture. I see Snape as a mixture. He leans toward being sadistic, he enjoys using his razor-sharp tongue, and he certainly enjoys deducting points and giving detentions. One thing he doesn't do, however, is abuse any of the students physically. Even with Harry, he's never resorted to physical punishments, the "Worst Memory" chapter aside. He could have arranged for Filch to have a go at Harry, but that didn't happen.
He may be verbally abusive, he may knock potions off his desk so that he can give their creators zeros, and he may delight in keeping students from doing things they enjoy (Harry and quidditch in HBP, for instance), but his lack of using physical means to intimidate the students is one reason why I do believe he is ultimately a good guy.
winlia - Apr 15, 2006 7:48 pm (#1778 of 2969)
I agree, Weeny Owl, that were he to start physical abuse (as opposed to self defense), he would have to move solidly into the evil camp, because the message that being beaten upon by adults is somehow justified would be unacceptable for young readers--and distasteful for older ones.
Dobby Socks - Apr 15, 2006 8:35 pm (#1779 of 2969)
Edited Apr 15, 2006 9:58 pm
I'm not saying Snape is guilty of causing serious psychological damage to his students, nor am I condoning (to use an extreme example) Dolores Umbridge planning to use the Cruciatus Curse against her students, but I have to say that psychological abuse is often worse than physical abuse. A black eye or a broken rib goes away fairly quickly. A bruised psyche can take dozens of years to heal, if it ever completely does. This is something that's often not recognized because the damage from physical abuse is so much easier to see.
I just don't see that as a dividing line that would define someone as "good" or "evil."
EDIT: For instance, I imagine whatever Tom Riddle did to the younger children in the cave would be an instance of extreme psychological abuse, whereas Malfoy breaking Harry's nose while he is immobilized under the invisibility cloak on the Hogwarts Express would obviously be physical abuse (or just physical violence since there is no age difference or expectation of trust between the two.) I'm trying to think of an instance of equivalent violence that is aimed at a child by an adult, but can't quickly recall one from the books. The effects of the earlier example are far worse. Ok... Voldemort's use of Crucio against Harry in the graveyard in GoF. The cave scene still seems far worse to me. Harry is able to recover from the physical torture fairly easily.
Saracene - Apr 15, 2006 8:55 pm (#1780 of 2969)
While I'm aware of "Harry filter" I don't think I'd ever find Snape's treatment of Neville anything less than deplorable no matter through whose eyes we see the scene. Sorry, but for me it really is one of the lowest points of Snape's character.
Up until the end of OotP I was pretty much in full agreement with Harry as far as Snape was concerned, actually.
I also thought that the bit in the fifth book where it says something along the way of, "whatever Dumbledore said Harry was never going to forgive Snape... never..." is pretty much a huge neon sign saying, "oh yes Harry you WILL",
TwinklingBlueEyes - Apr 15, 2006 9:10 pm (#1781 of 2969)
All definitions of what constitutes "abuse" aside. Harry has overcome 11 years, plus the taunts of his own classmates, again and again.
Why? How?
Does Snape know how "special" Harry is and is just resentful in petty ways?
Solitaire - Apr 15, 2006 9:19 pm (#1782 of 2969)
Edited Apr 15, 2006 10:21 pm
LOL It is so interesting to read how differently people can interpret things. While I can understand how Wynnleaf thinks it is perfectly fair for Ron to have to give Malfoy his neatly chopped roots in exchange for the imprecisely chopped ones, I can also understand Ron and Harry's perspective. They are looking at Malfoy's so-called injury from a different perspective. First of all, they know he disobeyed Hagrid when dealing with Buckbeak. They also know he is attempting to get Hagrid sacked, which Malfoy pretty much says in the same scene. They also know that Malfoy is faking his "pain," which he also pretty much confesses.
As for Snape knowing everything that goes on in his classroom, I agree. That is why his behavior with regard to the Trio and Malfoy is so continually despicable and unfair. In just about every exchange between Malfoy and any of the Trio, Malfoy has been the initiator of the hostilities ... yet Harry and Ron tend to be the ones who gets caught and punished. Snape continues to let Malfoy get away with everything. Boy, he sure does play his part of pretending to dislike Harry convincingly. **wink**
I find Snape amusing when he locks horns with other adults, and sometimes even when he does so with Harry, but when it comes to an adult of Snape's years bullying children, mostly I find it pathetic.
Bravo, Mrs. Brisbee! You are right on the money there!
As far as the difference between Snape's and Umbridge's cruelty to the kids, I almost find Snape's more damaging. Umbridge's cruelty is known and acknowledged by other teachers. Snape's is not. Umbridge's cruelty causes physical pain, which is despicable. Snape's cruelty may not cause physical damage, but it certainly does cause mental and emotional pain, and it is of a much longer duration. In some ways, I think his forms of torture are more difficult to bear, because others tend to blow them off. This is one reason Sirius was so important to Harry; he understood and validated Harry's suffering at the hand of Snape.
I kind of see Snape as one who was probably abused (at least emotionally) as a child. I think he is repeating the pattern by abusing those who cannot fight back. In his memory, the Marauders were never appropriately punished for the "crimes" of their youth. I believe he is trying to even the score a little by letting the abusive Draco & Co. get away with their own "crimes" without being punished.
Even though Snape walked free after Voldemort's vaporization, he is still just as stunted as Sirius, who walked into Azkaban and stayed there for twelve years. He has carried around his little catalog of all the wrongs done to him for years. Personally, I think he was mad that James died and Sirius went to prison (and eventually died) because it took away his opportunity for revenge. He is now paying back the only one he can pay, who is at his mercy ten months of every year--Harry.
To those who jump to Snape's defense ... I have no doubt that the Marauders tormented Snape at Hogwarts. Knowing Snape as we do, however, I also have no doubt that he managed to give as good as he got, because I can't see him letting anyone get away with too much.
I know most of you do not agree with me. I don't expect you to agree. It's just been a long time since I've had a really good "Snape Vent," and I felt it was time!
Solitaire
winlia - Apr 15, 2006 9:23 pm (#1783 of 2969)
I don't disagree, Dobby Socks. I've read these books to my eight-year-old, though. I tell my kids that it's unacceptable for an adult to hit them (or engage in other physical abuse), and that they should tell us should anything like that ever happens. I wouldn't want to see the books contridict that by describing a good guy hitting a kid. Not that there aren't people in the real world who do brave things yet still engage in domestic violence, I'm just not ready to explain it to my son yet, at least not in the context of books that he loves.
I don't want anyone to psycologically abuse my kids either, but those explanations have to be dealt with on a case by case basis. The HP books are wonderful for fostering those discussions. It's hard to explain, but the psycological stuff has more resonance for my son (I haven't read the books to my daughter yet, she's younger) than the physical stuff, undoubtedly because he can imagine being embarassed in class but doesn't see himself as a likely target for violence, like the receipient of a crucio curse.
In talking to my son, I characterize Snape as someone who is sometimes unkind, and I go on to say that it takes all kinds of people to make the world go round, and you have to learn to deal with them. Then I go on to the "there are better ways of dealing with people than to humiliate them, so don't emulate this guy" discussion. Sometimes I progress to the "this guy is a jerk and the kids should learn not to take everything he says to heart" line. And you're exactly right, should Snape's verbal abuse escalate, I would tell my son that I advocate the kids' going to their parents and the parents lobbying to get him fired.
Dobby Socks - Apr 15, 2006 9:31 pm (#1784 of 2969)
Good point Saracene:
---“I also thought that the bit in the fifth book where it says something along the way of, ‘whatever Dumbledore said Harry was never going to forgive Snape... never...’ is pretty much a huge neon sign saying, ‘oh yes Harry you WILL’,
” --- Which brings us back around to the forgiveness/trust theme again…
Incidentally, I also disliked Snape and didn’t trust him until my first read of OoP (although I did occasionally appreciate some aspects of his character… and, no, I actually hadn’t seen the movies yet at this point, just to clear up that always present issue… I read books 1-6 and then saw the movies.) I do attribute most of this to the “Harry Filter,” though. On rereads, there are things about Snape that have made me uncomfortable, but not like they did the first time. Could be the ability to see past the “Harry filter,” could be the hindsight afforded by OoP and HBP. I’m not sure.
I’m still trying to make up my mind about his treatment of the students.
winlia - Apr 15, 2006 9:49 pm (#1785 of 2969)
Solitare,
As tickled as I am by Snape the fictional character, I don't think that I would have much use for him as a coworker or next-door neighbor, and I think that disconnect is what sparks some of the disagreement on this thread.
In the classroom, the ideal would be for the kids to see him for what he often is, a petty bully, and not be damaged by what transpires.
journeymom - Apr 15, 2006 11:05 pm (#1786 of 2969)
Just this one note, didn't Dumbledore specifically take corporal punishment away as a choice for the teachers? (Or did I simply read this in a fanfic? Quite possible.) If that's the case, it doesn't necessarily indicate any positive virtue for Snape if he doesn't cane the students.
I think Sirius literally said 'Snape gave as good as he got'.
wynnleaf - Apr 16, 2006 6:56 am (#1787 of 2969)
Lots to cover since I last posted
"Sirius literally said 'Snape gave as good as he got'." I'm not sure that I'd trust any more of what Sirius has to say about Snape, than I'd trust what Snape had to say about James and Sirius. I'm still struck by the fact that Harry didn't run across a bunch of cards on Snape in the box of detentions that he was working on for detention in HBP. Some speculate that Snape removed his, but I don't think someone as rules oriented as Snape would do that.
I am interested that many seemed to take my comments on the Potions class events in POA as meaning that there were fair explanations for all Snape did. I tried to say repeatedly that was not the case. I was not trying to say that Snape never did mean things. I was trying to point out that JKR uses the pov of the narration to make what Snape does seem a lot worse than it may truly be.
I'll have to write more later, having no time right now.
Soul Search - Apr 16, 2006 7:25 am (#1788 of 2969)
Edited Apr 16, 2006 8:27 am
Snape's character is consistent over the six books.
From "Ah Yes," ... "Harry Potter. Our new -- celebrity/" in the first potions class in SS to "DON'T --" ... "CALL ME COWARD!" at the end of HBP, Snape treats Harry, and everyone, students and adults, the same. While Snape is the same, my view of him does change. Milestones in my view of Snape are: In SS, Quirrel telling Harry that Snape tried to save Harry from falling off his broom; in PoA when Snape threatens to take Lupin and Sirius to the dementors; in GoF when Snape agrees to undertake the role Dumbledore asks of him; the pensive scene in OotP, and Harry's and Snape's running dialog at the end of HBP.
I conclude that Snape is disappointed with his own life and uses the "just hit them with a bigger stick" teaching method to try and correct his own mistakes he sees in his students. (Actually, teaching is something all the Hogwarts staff could learn better. The best teacher I have seen was Lupin. Maybe Crouch Jr./Moody comes in second.)
I don't think it was intentional, but Snape's treatment of Harry has prepared Harry for life. He handled Umbridge better for having known Snape.
And, again not planned, Snape's treatment of Harry made his double agent role with Voldemort more credible (Witness the Spinner's End dialog with Belatrix.)
All this seems to be building to the last milestone when Harry, and we, learn "Why Dumbledore trusted Snape." Snape will be a pivotal character in book seven.
Solitaire - Apr 16, 2006 8:29 am (#1789 of 2969)
Edited Apr 16, 2006 9:31 am
Snape treats Harry, and everyone, students and adults, the same.
I really disagree with this statement. Snape may hate everyone equally, but he definitely does not treat them all the same. He consistently favors his own Slytherin kids and undermines the Gryffindors, the Trio more than anyone and Harry particularly. His people skills are so poor that he is incapable of mastering any feelings of dislike, and his favoritism is positively blatant.
I will agree that Snape may not like certain traits of his own that he sees in students. I think this is particularly true of Hermione. As smart as Snape is, I am willing to bet he was the know-it-all of his own year and was probably berating Hermione the way he felt he had been berated ... although probably not in Potions. I don't see Sluggy as the nasty type, although I can see him creating plenty of ill will in Snape by ignoring him for membership in the Slug Club. Snape is clearly jealous of people who are "celebrities," isn't he?
When I am feeling generous toward Snape, I can sometimes imagine that he is so nasty to Harry & Co. out of frustration at having to sort of "suck up" to Draco, in order to fool Lucius and the other DEs. My common sense, however, soon gets the better of me, and I see Snape for the truly miserable human being he is. (Perhaps "misery loves company" is his credo?) I still vacillate over Snape's loyalties ... and I probably will until the bitter end, when all is revealed.
Solitaire
Weeny Owl - Apr 16, 2006 9:00 am (#1790 of 2969)
I know psychological abuse is often worse than physical abuse, but it isn't the impact on the target that I'm talking about.
It's just how far a person would go to deal with someone he hated, and I don't think Snape is quite in the arena of a true Death Eater or Voldemort. He didn't do the things in HBP that he could've done while escaping from Hogwarts with Draco. He could easily have used many painful spells, yet he just blocked the ones Harry was casting instead of countering with his own Sectumsempra, for example. He did lose his cool at one point, but considering what had happened and what was going on at the time, it isn't surprising. Even Harry ended up being so angry at Bella that he cast an Unforgivable on her.
Just this one note, didn't Dumbledore specifically take corporal punishment away as a choice for the teachers? (Or did I simply read this in a fanfic? Quite possible.) If that's the case, it doesn't necessarily indicate any positive virtue for Snape if he doesn't cane the students.
It does indicate a positive because while Umbridge was running the school, she gave Filch permission to whip students. I'm sure she would have been delighted to sign a permission slip allowing Harry to be punished that way, but Snape never tried to get back at Harry for looking in the Pensieve except to knock a potion on the floor. He could easily have come up with a reason to send Harry to Filch.
I'm not saying that any of it makes Snape a nice person. I'm just saying that it gives some reasons why he isn't necessarily on the bad guys' side.
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Soul Search - Apr 16, 2006 9:40 am (#1791 of 2969)
Solitaire, you are right that Snape "seems" to favor Draco. I am still uncertain regarding Snape's relationship with Draco and the Malfoys, however. I note that most of the examples of "kindness" towards Draco are to Harry's or others' disadvantage. The HBP scene where Snape removes Draco from Slughorn's Christmas party might be more indicative of his relationship with Draco than, say, the PoA scene where Draco pretends to be injured.
Snape doesn't torment other Slytherins in class, but I don't see that he really favors any, either.
Could it be that Snape only pressures those students he sees as having potential, ignoring those without any particular skills? Harry aside, he mostly torments Hermione and Neville. 'Course, this could just be because they are friends of Harry's.
I didn't mean Snape treats adults and students the same. He treats students the same as other students. He treats adults the same. Except Dumbledore; he is quite respective of Dumbledore.
I sold Slughorn a little short in my judgement of Hogwarts teaching. Slughorn seems to employ the basics of teaching better than other Hogwarts professors, although over-favoring Harry in classes.
journeymom - Apr 16, 2006 9:43 am (#1792 of 2969)
I thought about that but decided that Dumbledore would have been angry with Snape if word got back to him that Snape physically hurt Harry. Members of the Order were probably in contact with Dd while Umbridge was in control of Hogwarts.
Though I prefer your reason, Weeny.
I prefer to think that Snape is a nasty, grouchy, emotionally stunted, tragically misunderstood figure.
wynnleaf - Apr 16, 2006 10:07 am (#1793 of 2969)
Edited Apr 16, 2006 11:11 am
As to whether or not Snape would use physical punishment if he could...
Even without corporal punishment, it is clearly okay for teachers to give dangerous detentions to students. Note that McGonagall gives Harry, Ron and Draco detention with Hagrid which includes taking them on a dangerous trip into the Forbidden Forest. In contrast, Snape's detentions focus on hard physical work -- cleaning cauldrons, preparing strange potions ingredients, etc. He does have the option to give more dangerous detentions and he doesn't do it.
Speaking of detentions, it is interesting to note the punishment he gave Harry for the Sectumsempra use on Draco. Other than expressing his regret, Harry never gives Snape any sort of adequate explanation for what occurred for him to use that curse on Draco. Of course, there was no excuse for using a Dark curse. Anyway, without any more to go on than Harry mentioned, Snape would only have the evidence of his own eyes. And by that evidence alone, Harry had clearly almost killed Draco with a particularly vicious curse. Even McGonagall later told Harry that he was lucky not to be expelled. But Snape never even seems to consider trying to get him expelled. He only uses detentions that also effectively end Quidditch for Harry for the year. Even the detention Snape gives is not a particularly terrible detention to give. While Snape's later remarks about Harry running across evidence of the Marauder's past detentions is mean spirited, the detention itself is actually quite mild in comparison to Harry's almost killing another student.
Snape's actions after Harry's use of Sectumsempra are very interesting. Not asking for Harry to be expelled is illuminating, I think. As I recall (could be wrong), Snape doesn't try to get Harry expelled after POA -- maybe not after CoS. I always thought it was not a coincidence for that to change about the same time that signs appeared that LV was making a possible comeback. McGonagall may have told Harry he was lucky to not be expelled in HBP, but I doubt if that would have ever been considered once LV started to return.
winlia - Apr 16, 2006 11:18 am (#1794 of 2969)
Edited Apr 16, 2006 1:33 pm
I took Umbridge to be a psychopath. (Are they called sociopaths these day?) She looks for excuses to do harm because she enjoys doing harm, although she tries to be "normal" enough to operate in society. I would say that disqualifies her for any heroic actions at the end of book 7--she's too far gone to be redeemed. I don't think Snape is quite in that class, but he does have his moments.
I just reread the chapters surronding shrieking shack. Sirius has (had) some issues too. I can stretch my imagination to believe that a 15 or 16-year-old could initiate a prank that might result in someone's death without fully thinking through the consequences, but for a middle-aged man, Azkaban or no Azkaban, to say something along the lines of, well, you deserved it, always sneaking around, is appalling. Maybe JKR just exaggerates every-day unkindness/conflict for dramatic effect?
There was some discussion a few days back regarding Severus' motivation for not pushing for expulsion after the shrieking shack episode. I don't know if he truly believed that the children were confunded, but he definately felt that they were wrong in thinking Black innocent. He desperately wanted Sirius punished, and he was focusing on that outcome. He reminds DD that Black was a murderer at 16, and says to him, "... You haven't forgotten that he tried to kill me?" Maybe JKR included the over-the-top teenage prank that nearly killed Severus as a way a justifying some of his later unkindnesses? Got to admit, nearly being killed is an excellent reason for disliking someone and their running buddies (and offspring).
Unpon rereading, I also see that we have only Severus' word for when he woke up and what he saw. He says that he saw the dementors retreating but not what made them do so. No mention of having seen the transformed Lupin--I must have gotten caught up in the "movie contamination" that someone mentioned. I like that phrase.
I also thoroughly enjoyed the "spinner's end location" link. Thank you Wynnleaf!
I haven't checked into the Smiths yet, though I plan to do so.
Also regarding the shrieking shack events in PoA...I can suspend disbelieve easily enough when it comes to werewolves, wizards, animated tree, etc., but a cooperative cat? I love cats, we've had many over the years, but I've never been able to get so much as the time of day from any of them.
Solitaire - Apr 16, 2006 3:02 pm (#1795 of 2969)
Edited Apr 16, 2006 4:04 pm
Got to admit, nearly being killed is an excellent reason for disliking someone and their running buddies (and offspring).
Was Snape even mildly injured in that incident? He certainly might have been killed, had he continued down the tunnel. But he didn't continue ... James pulled him back and prevented his even being injured, I believe. Snape was certainly in a dangerous situation which could have led to either his death or a Werewolf bite. Still, I can't help believing the entire incident would never have taken place at all, had he not been sneaking around and spying on the Marauders.
Of course, I do not blame Snape for hating the Marauders because of what happened. That would have been a natural "kid response" to the situation. I do feel that blaming Harry for James's so-called transgressions is a bit overboard. I can't help it ... I do.
Solitaire
winlia - Apr 16, 2006 3:26 pm (#1796 of 2969)
Solitare,
That incident wouldn't justify Snape wanting harm to come to Harry (or Lupin or James), but I think it's enough to keep him from liking Harry or anyone else having anything to do with James and Co. Especially given that Harry looks like James. It seems to be the motivation for outing Lupin as a werewolf.
Somebody else mentioned Snape "giving as good as he got". Technically, he may have--he seems to be pretty good with a spell. I think the difference is that Severus' attacks didn't hurt James' popularity, but James may have seriously impaired Severus' ability to make friends. In the shrieking shack episode, Lupin recalls how running as a werewolf with his animagus friends were the best times of his life. Enough so that Lupin says he disregarded the potential danger that his running loose transformed posed. So friendship is positioned as extremely important and a motivation for reckless action.
My guess is that the social fallout from James' continued humiliation of Severus pushed Severus toward the deatheaters. (I know, I know, Severus has to take responsibility for his own actions. I fully agree.)
HungarianHorntail11 - Apr 16, 2006 4:07 pm (#1797 of 2969)
Edited Apr 16, 2006 5:14 pm
Perhaps this is a bit off the current path, but while reading some of these posts back to back, I had a thought.
winlia posted: My take is that the much-debated conversation in the forest is about death. When Severus says that he doesn't want to do it any more, I took him at his word--that the spying and the prospect of DD's death had become so overwhelming that he was not going to honor the unbreakable vow.
I agree that it was about death and more specifically, about the DD incident to come. If, indeed, Snape had reached the point where he no longer wanted to honor the UV, that would translate into harming himself, possibly even leading to his death. (What is the penalty for an unfulfilled UV - does it depend on the nature of the UV?) Would that be his choice over AKing DD? That would explain why he was so affronted by being called a coward. If so, Harry was ignorant to the fact that Snape offered DD an alternative in such a manner. Perhaps, though, DD had a plan and Snape was concerned that the AK would work and kill DD.
I feel as though many people (most) have gone through difficult times at one point or another, and if they have not yet, they will. However, not everyone deals with people in the same manner. Though there have been valid points in Snape's favor, I also believe that there is great strength in not taking your hostilities out on others. As for his treatment of Neville, patience is a virtue, or so they say.
Nathan Zimmermann - Apr 16, 2006 4:31 pm (#1798 of 2969)
Edited Apr 16, 2006 5:51 pm
I had a thought on the character of Severus Snape. While, I was rereading HBP chapter nine. The classroom door opened as she spoke, and Snape stepped into the corridor, his sallow face framed as ever by two curtains of greasy black hair. Silence fell over the queue immediately. "Inside," he said. (HBP large print edition page 231)
The fear that Snape inspires seem to me to be reminiscent of the Machiavellian ideal that it is better to be feared rather than loved. In that Severus draws strength from the fear he inspires. The manner in which he deals with his students demonstrates projects the image of the stern task master in order to ensure that his decisions are not questioned by his students.
wynnleaf - Apr 16, 2006 7:59 pm (#1799 of 2969)
Edited Apr 16, 2006 10:01 pm
I tend to think that James' Marauder past is not the only reason for Snape's hatred, nor his passing along that dislike to Harry. I realize this gets into "theory" territory, but since DD said Snape's greatest regret was LV targeting the Potters, and it seems highly unlikely he'd be concerned with James, it seems to hint strongly that Snape cared in some way for Lily. Why else would it be his greatest regret?
In POA, Severus furiously mentions in the Shrieking Shack James' "arrogance" in believing that he could trust Sirius. Why was Severus so furious that James would trust Sirius? He disliked/hated them both anyway and always knew they were good friends. Of course they'd trust each other. My guess is that his hatred of James actually increased with the Potter's deaths. If Severus was the spy that warned that LV was targeting the Potters, as well as the spy that warned of a traitor in their midst, then Severus may well have warned James about trusting his friends with the Fidelius Charm. If Severus felt that James' "arrogance" in disregarding his (Severus') warning, and trusting his friends was the cause of Lily's death, then that could be a much stronger reason for Severus' degree of continuing hate. It would also explain why James' "arrogance" became the biggest flaw/insult that Severus uses when insulting James' memory to Harry. Further, when he looks at Harry, he sees the image of James and thinks of Harry as having the same arrogance -- the arrogance that got Lily killed. Yes, Lily died for Harry, but that could work both ways in giving Severus another reason to resent Harry, but also inspire protection for Lily's sake.
On another note, I think it's important to remember that most likely no other Hogwarts professor other than DD has anywhere near the stresses that Severus has. There's no just leaving LV's service, as we found with Karkarov. Snape really has no choice about going back to LV. If he never went back, LV would seek him out and kill him eventually. So he is forced to become a spy (for one side or the other). Within the walls of Hogwarts he has to walk a fine line of appearing a faithful DE to the children of DE's, as well as being faithful to DD and accomplishing DD's purposes. He cannot afford to develop particularly close friendships even within the Order (even if that suited his temperament), because he cannot appear to LV to be anything other than LV's man. But on the other hand, he cannot have real friends among DE's if he's not truly one. Whatever friendship he ever had with Lucius became extremely problematic the moment Snape switched sides to DD. He can be called to do LV's bidding at any time. Other DE's are jealous and suspicious of him and apparently attempt to feed their doubts to LV -- who would clearly kill him if he were revealed to be a traitor. On the other side, members of the Order admit they only trust Snape because DD says to do so. On top of all this, he gets called on to "save the day" on a number of occasions of which we're told -- who knows about others. Katie Bell, DD's arm, protecting Harry at various times, come to mind. Then he's also the head of a house with a lot of DE kids, most likely a house that has more internal difficulties than other houses. And he's got to deal with kids under his care that may be likely to become DE's themselves. He can't openly tell them not to join LV, because that would blow his cover. So he has to watch kids he may actually care about (Draco, for instance) go over to LV without being able to do anything actively to prevent it.
And then he's bound to know that the Gryffindor students who are actually privy to information about him being a spy (Harry, Hermione, and the Weasley kids), seem to be intent on proving that he's really working for LV and a traitor.
None of these factors is going to make him very pleasant to be around. And I would think these sorts of stresses would work to increase his resentment of others.
Solitaire - Apr 16, 2006 8:14 pm (#1800 of 2969)
Very nicely stated, Nathan. I really agree with you.
Winlia, I suppose that debating the James-Snape hostilities is a lot like debating "Which came first--the chicken or the egg?" Depending on one's perspective, it can be seen from either direction.
I have no doubt that Snape joined the DEs in an effort to acquire the status he'd always been denied in the Wizarding World. However, we have already been told that Snape was "up to his eyeballs in the Dark Arts" when he walked through the doors at Hogwarts, so it is also possible that he would have gravitated to anyone who was associated with them. There is also the possibility that he was shunned by some outside the WW, too, because of his Half-Blood status. In fact, it could have been that which initially sparked his interest in the Dark Arts.
I keep thinking about one of the things Harry sees in the Pensieve: a hook-nosed man was shouting at a cowering woman, while a small dark-haired boy cried in a corner ... I admit it's tough to imagine a witch--who could have grabbed her kid and disapparated--sticking around and putting up with abuse by a Muggle, but maybe she did. If Snape did grow up in a situation where he and his mother were abused by his father or shunned by her family, that could certainly account for his interest in the Dark Arts. He might have wanted to have the means to get some revenge, once he was old enough to do so.
This intense interest in the Dark Arts, whatever its trigger, would have attracted the instant dislike of someone like James, who hated the Dark Arts. I think there was more to it, however. I think Sirius may have had some prior knowledge of Snape outside Hogwarts. James certainly disliked Snape, but Sirius truly hated him. Why? Surely it was more than just Snape trying to get them expelled. Could Snape have sparked an interest in the Dark Arts in a young, impressionable Regulus? They were, after all, in the same house at Hogwarts. I've often wondered if perhaps it was Snape who recruited Regulus into the DEs and caused his death. Of course, that would have been after Hogwarts ... and it is only speculation anyway. There is no evidence for such an idea.
As for Snape's "continued humiliation" at James's hand ... I have a hard time imagining James and Sirius following Snape around and gunning for him. I think Snape's continued spying and following the Marauders around, trying to get some dirt on them, is the reason he kept running afoul of James and Sirius. Maybe Snape was trying to do "something big" at Hogwarts to gain the attention of the older Slytherins; I don't know. I do know that his near encounter with Remus in Werewolf form happened because he was poking around in their business. If he'd stayed away from them, it probably never would have happened. JM2K ...
At my last school, one of my students was forever tailing the local gang leader around, trying to tweak his nose. In the halls between classes, he would poke him, try to trip him, etc. He was generally ignored, which probably bothered him even more. When he did provoke a reaction, even if it was only verbal, he would run to the teachers or administration and squeal. Students, teachers, and administration all knew what was happening. We didn't like the gang, but we also knew they were not provoking this particular problem. I've often wondered if this kid ever got thumped after I left. He certainly asked for it often enough!
Solitaire
winlia - Apr 16, 2006 8:47 pm (#1801 of 2969)
Wynnleaf I don't have time to go back and check the book (leaving on a business trip tomorrow) but, when Harry and DD are discussing the prophecy, and DD talks about Snape's greatest regret, does DD finish his sentence? For some reason, I can't see the Severus/Lily connection, except as friends, and hasn't JKR dropped a hint about Severus having had some sort of relationship? I keep thinking that the reason DD knew that Severus is loyal is that Severus lost someone he loved to LV. Other than Lily.
Solitare, I really like the Regulus idea. Makes the dislike between Snape and Sirius more personal.
I realize that Severus was trying to get information on the werewolf activities of James and Co. so that he could get them expelled. Given how much it meant to Lupin, that would clearly make them very angry. But as you said, we don't know who started the ill will.
Saracene - Apr 16, 2006 8:55 pm (#1802 of 2969)
Edited Apr 16, 2006 10:01 pm
Regarding Snape "giving as good as he got": I have no doubt that Snape could hex James as well as James did Snape, but I also think that one has to take into account their vastly unequal social status when looking at their feud. James was a handsome, popular, admired student while Snape was an unnatractive oddball clearly at the bottom of the social ladder. In the Pensieve scene, James obviously had the full support and approval of the crowd while Snape had no one but Lily to stick up for him. I just don't think that there was any way that Snape could pay James back by doing what James did to him in that scene - attack him in the full view of the other students and humiliate him publicly while the rest cheered and applauded. Snape's social status and general unpopularity simply wouldn't allow him to "give as good as he got" humiliation-wise, and I'm sure that it's humiliation that drives him up the wall - not hexes and jinxes as such.
As for who started it... well Sirius said that Snape and James loathed each other from the moment they saw each other. Maybe the animosity was simply something on a purely instinctive level - hate on first sight, Rather than because of something concrete either of them did to another.
Regarding Snape's regret, Dumbledore doesn't finish the story but he very definitely says that Snape felt the greatest remorse of his life when he realised how Voldemort interpreted the prophecy and that it is also the reason he returned. Therefore I think that Snape's regret, if it was real, is very much linked with Harry's parents.
wynnleaf - Apr 16, 2006 9:12 pm (#1803 of 2969)
Edited Apr 16, 2006 10:16 pm
I may be wrong, but wasn't it Remus Lupin that said the "gave as good as he got" remark? And if not him it would have been Sirius.
I see not the slightest reason to trust anything Sirius may have said about Severus. This, after all, is the guy who still thought he was justified to endanger Snape's life with the Shrieking Shack incident.
As for Lupin -- and I Really, Really do like Lupin, believe me -- I don't believe we can believe Lupin when he's trying to stick up for the Maruaders. Why not? Well, in POA, Lupin thought Sirius was a murderer of 13 people right up until the end of the book. But even while he thought Sirius was a murderer, he was willing to conceal Sirius status as an animagus as well as the secret passages in Hogwarts, primarily because of his friendship.
Can you picture the search of the castle by the faculty and staff after the Pink Lady's painting was slashed? What was Lupin doing? Going all over that castle, pretending to search for Sirius, when in reality he knew the guy could turn into a dog and get out a secret passage. If Lupin was willing to be that deceitful to protect his friend, why should we trust his remarks about Severus, particularly when the primary intent is to show that the Marauders weren't any worse than Snape?
Lupin was willing to put every child in that castle at risk, including Harry, rather than reveal what he knew.
And in the "Snape's worst memory" scene, Lupin was willing to basically sit on his hands and do nothing even though he was a prefect. Why? Apparently because he couldn't stand up to James and Sirius.
Yet when Harry is concerned about the actions of James and Sirius, we are supposed to believe Remus, when he gives "evidence" that Severus gave "just as bad as he got?" He could just be protecting his friends once again.
Solitaire - Apr 16, 2006 9:43 pm (#1804 of 2969)
It probably was Remus who made the statement, Wynnleaf; I don't have my book handy to check. The difference between us with regard to his credibilty is that I do believe Remus is reliable. Every time I have read that passage in OotP--about his not standing up to James and Sirius--I sense regret in his comments.
Remus is the one Marauder who has been able to move beyond the past. Even before he was killed, Sirius was still "stuck" where he was when he entered Akzaban. James is dead. Peter--well, his problems are obvious. Remus has had many years to reflect on his past and consider where he made mistakes, and I think he has done just that. Of all the Marauders, he strikes me as the one who was most sensitive and is most capable of realizing the errors of his past ... even where Snape is concerned. Remus sought no vengeance against Snape for outting him. I doubt Snape would have accepted such an offense without seeking revenge.
We just see things differently ... which is okay. Differences are one of the things which propel the forum!
Solitaire
Saracene - Apr 16, 2006 10:44 pm (#1805 of 2969)
Edited Apr 16, 2006 11:50 pm
Actually, Lupin made it clear in PoA that the reason he did not say anything about Sirius' animagus status was not because of friendship. It was simply because he was too cowardly to confess to Dumbledore that he betrayed his trust while he was at school, that he broke the rules set up for his own and others' safety, and led his three friends into becoming Animagi illegally. Lupin also admits that even back then he felt guilty about deceiving Dumbledore, but managed to suppress his guilt - and that he has done the same thing again as an adult. So while Lupin is obviously very well aware of his mistakes and problems, as an adult he hasn't been able to do the next step and actually move beyond them.
As for Lupin and whether what he says about Snape can be relied on, while I don't think that Lupin would tell an outright lie I wouldn't rely on him to tell the full story either. Lupin was a friend of both James and Sirius and he naturally wants Harry to think the best of his father. He obviously feels regret about not standing up to his friends where their treatment of Snape was concerned - but it's worth remembering that he has only voiced this sentiment -after- Harry had seen the Pensieve scene and learnt a very unpleasant truth about his father's past. Prior to that, why, Lupin gave Harry no indication whatsoever that something like Pensieve scene ever happened; in PoA he tells Harry that Snape disliked James especially and that he thinks it must have been because Snape was jealous of James' skills at Quidditch. Which very easily could have been a -part- of the truth, but obviously it wasn't the -whole- truth.
wynnleaf - Apr 17, 2006 5:27 am (#1806 of 2969)
Edited Apr 17, 2006 6:49 am
I did realize that Remus said that he didn't tell about Sirius being an animagus, or the secret passages because he was too ashamed to tell DD. I should have mentioned that. But I have never really thought that was the whole story -- any more than Severus being jealous of James' Quidditch skills was anywhere near the real story behind their animosity.
The problem with Remus -- and please remember I DO like Remus -- is that he seems to have a big weakness when it comes to wanting to preserve the good opinion of those he cares about. So he appears to be willing to cover up truth, give partial truths, or simply avoid saying anything, in order to maintain the good opinion of DD, Harry, Sirius and James.
Think about it... He told Harry that James and Severus' animosity stemmed from Severus' jealousy of Quidditch skills. This was almost certainly only a tiny part of it, if any part. He wouldn't tell James and Sirius -- even though a prefect -- that what they were doing to Severus was wrong. He wouldn't tell DD about Sirius being an animagus, or about the secret passageways -- even though he thought Sirius was likely a dangerous murderer intent on killing Harry. He continued in this deception even after Sirius had got into the Gryffindor dorm areas.
And as Saracene pointed out, Lupin only "comes clean" after Harry learns about more of the truth from other sources.
On Severus' part, he has stated in the meanest ways he can that James was arrogant. Whether or not this was really the truth, there is evidence to bear out Severus' reasons for believing in James' arrogance. We know that James went ahead with a fidelius charm with a Marauder as secret keeper even in the face of a warning of a possible traitor there. We know he acted arrogantly and as a bully in the pensieve scene. These may not be the "norm" for James, but my point is that we do have evidence for Snape's comments.
Further, Snape said that Sirius tried to kill him. While we don't know the complete story, we do have collaborative comments from DD that this was the case.
In POA, Severus said that Lupin was untrustworthy and was helping Sirius. While Lupin wasn't directly helping Sirius (since he wasn't in contact with him), it did turn out that Severus was correct and Lupin was in fact being quite dishonest and was hiding information that was helping Sirius. Further, it turned out that Remus could not be trusted to remember his wolfsbane potion during crisis situations.
My point is that while Remus speaks in a gentle and sincere voice, he often does not tell the truth. While Snape speaks in a mean, bitter way, what he has actually said about the Marauders turns out to be corroborated by outside evidence.
As regards some things we "learn" from Sirius and Remus about Snape...
He came to Hogwarts knowing more Dark curses than upper year students -- No Collaborative Evidence.
He "gave as good as he got." Ditto -- No Collaborative Evidence. In fact, we have hints of evidence to the contrary in that the pensieve scene shows the Marauders ganging up on Snape, and Harry's detentions with Snape in HBP reveal lots of detentions for the Marauders, but no mention of detentions for Snape. Sure, he could have been better at concealing what he did, but I'm just saying that there's no real evidence to support the "gave as good as he got" comment.
He was jealous of James' Quidditch skills. Ditto -- No Collaborative Evidence.
He was always following the Marauders around trying to get them expelled. Maybe, but once again, other than trying to figure out where Lupin went every month we have no collaborative evidence that Snape followed the Marauders around a lot.
rambkowalczyk - Apr 17, 2006 5:58 am (#1807 of 2969)
To backtrack about 49 posts or so,
Wynnleaf, Regarding the Harry filter I agree that the example you gave (POA Potions when Snape had Harry/Ron help Draco) is an excellant example of how JKR writes things that shows Harry's point of view rather than an unbiased one. But it also shows Snape showing how to take advantage of a situation. Although in one sense he knew his actions were perfectly reasonable,(I can see him explaining this to McGonagall in the teacher's lounge) he also knew it would annoy Harry to no end.
Someone pointed out in the last day or two about Snape giving Harry a zero in potions because Snape broke his flask. This happened in OOP soon after Snape's worst memory. Throughout that class Snape acted as though Harry was invisible. After Harry handed in his beaker he i turned away when he heard a smashing noise; Malfoy gave i a gleeful yell of laughter. ... his potion ... on the floor and i Snape was surveying him with a look of gloating pleasure. It is possible that Malfoy knocked the potion off the desk (using magic) and Snape "didn't know" who did this and considered it an unfortunate accident.
Solitaire, I agree with your analysis of Snape being the kid who provokes bullys. It is similar to when Draco provokes Harry and Fred by making comments about their mom after the Quidditch game and gets himself beat up.
Gina, I'm not sure if I wrote what you asked. If that passage was written after November of 05, then the answer is no not me. But I would like to comment on the Judas thing.
In both cases it is possible that sympathizers for the betrayer makes them want to come up with an explanation that diminishes the guilt of the betrayer and what better way than to say I was told to do it by the one being betrayed. Also we are lead to believe that it was necessary that this betrayal was done for the greater good. (ie Jesus would never have been crucified and resurrected and Snape's cover as a loyal Death Eater would have been unquestioned.)
Christian theology has both Peter and Judas being Jesus' most loyal followers up to the suicide of Judas. Remember that Peter's denying Jesus 3 times was just as sinful as what Judas did. The difference is that Peter repented whereas Judas never gave himself the chance to repent.
The point is what Snape did was wrong even if his intentions were not evil. What Snape did was wrong even if good were to come as a result of his actions. This means that Snape has to acknowledge that what he did was wrong and ask forgiveness.
Dumbledore may have had a plan set in place but I don't think what happened was what Dumbledore planned. For starters Dumbledore did not expect Death Eaters to enter the castle. By the same token neither did Snape. It is possible when Snape saw Draco, and the Death Eaters around a weakened Dumbledore, Snape panicked, and killed Dumbledore to save himself. (that is he chose to keep his standing with the Death Eater,)
There is an interesting article in the Lexicon, Dumbledore vivens Snapeque bonamicus, which argues that Dumbledore isn't dead. I disagree, but it argued convincingly that there was a loophole in the Unbreakable Vow that would have spared Snape from killing Dumbledore. "Should it prove necessary ... if Draco seems to fail..." The argument is that it would never prove necessary to kill Dumbledore.
My guess was that the original plan was to fake Dumbledore's death because both Dumbledore and Snape believed that this loophole existed. This was what Dumbledore intended to show Harry.
Gina R Snape - Apr 17, 2006 7:17 am (#1808 of 2969)
Wynnleaf, I just wanted to say I thought you did a exquisite job of demonstrating the emotional and practical pressure Snape has been under. Bravo.
Ramb, I do think DD thought the DEs would get in. He tells Draco he did not think it possible, but I think that was just part of his coy way of learning how they got in.
I have a friend who emotionally and fervently argues that even if it were an order from DD, killing him was wrong and she'll never be able to forgive Snape. I, on the other hand, see it as an act of war as part of the dirty truth that war makes killers out of men. DD tells Harry that he must obey his orders, and I can well imagine this same or similar speech being given to Snape at the planning of his death.
Finally, I have thought for ages and ages that it was Snape's plan to use the fidelius charm, and his hatred of James increased when James chose one of his buddies as the secret keeper, to his ultimate peril. It is very easy for me to see James getting coaxed into the plan by DD, with Snape whispering DD's ear that trusting one of the marauders is a mistake. But James' arrogance (as Snape sees it) causes him to ignore all suggestions of DD being the secret keeper. So far we've seen how Snape fit into "creating the problem" of the plan to kill the Potters. In my gut I know he was also working to protect them and may see the failure of such a best laid plan as partially a failure of his own, thereby compounding his anger and desire to forge ahead with what needed to be done in the years to come.
Also, I don't think it was ever a possibility for Harry to be expelled. Period. Not so long as DD was around. I think Snape was playing a bluffing game to pull Harry in line and at some point DD told him to stop.
Magic Words - Apr 17, 2006 8:56 am (#1809 of 2969)
To bring up Lily again (re posts 1799 and 1801), I agree with wynnleaf that Snape’s attitude in PoA – railing against James’ arrogance – may indicate that the Potters’ deaths were in fact his greatest regret. It gives a whole new meaning to his lines in the shrieking shack: “revenge is sweet” and “I hoped I’d be the one to catch you.” I think his reaction is plausible even if he and Lily were just friends. I like to think, rather than revenge or love for a single person motivating Snape’s change of allegiance, Lily’s death opened his eyes to the kind of people he was supporting. If he knew and liked her, maybe hers was the first death he couldn’t ignore or rationalize away, and it forced him to realize how ruthless and evil Voldemort really was.
And winlia (post 1801), you’re right, DD doesn’t finish his sentence. I think he gets as far as “the greatest regret of his life and the reason he turned-” I think that’s far enough for us to say with near certainty that he meant “the reason he turned spy.” By the way, I’d like to point out to any Snape-is-a-DE-theorists reading this thread (since I have a friend who keeps trying to argue this point with me) that there can be a huge difference between “the reason he turned” and “the proof that he turned.” Harry assumes that DD’s reason for trusting Snape is that Snape told him he regretted the Potters’ deaths. But the proof Snape gave DD doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with that. JM2K
Ramb, thanks for explaining the flask incident. It was shortly after the Worst Memory scene; that’s what I was wondering.
wynnleaf - Apr 17, 2006 9:20 am (#1810 of 2969)
Edited Apr 17, 2006 10:22 am
I actually see a long-standing hatred for James to be more realistic if Lily was a friend rather than a school-age love interest.
To flip the scenario around, how would we expect Harry to react if Hermione ended up marrying his worst enemy, Draco, (we'll pretend Draco turned good) and then some ill-considered (to Harry) action on Draco's part ended up getting her killed? We'd expect Harry to hate Draco forever probably. Imagine Draco letting one of his friends, Crabb or Goyle, be a secret keeper for him -- over Harry's warnings that one may be a DE -- only to discover that the secret keeper was in league with LV and gave up the secret. I'd expect Harry to always think that that her death was a result of Draco's arrogance, Draco's mistake. We could toss in a scenario where it was all partly Harry's fault, but it would still be believable for Harry to blame Draco, because he's already been willing to bury his own blame for Sirius' death in order to blame someone else.
Hey, that was pretty weird wasn't it? <grin>
Not that I'd think we've got any kind of evidence of such a strong friendship between Snape and Lily -- but it could still turn out that they were quite close.
Gina R Snape - Apr 17, 2006 9:25 am (#1811 of 2969)
Oooh, Wynnleaf, maybe you should that as a fanfic!
rambkowalczyk - Apr 17, 2006 12:04 pm (#1812 of 2969)
Gina, Although I may argue that Snape killing Dumbledore was wrong, unlike your friend I can forgive him. Unfortunately Snape's redemption depends on not me forgiving him but on Harry's forgiveness. One could argue that Harry spared Wormtail for betraying his parents because he figured his parents would not want his friends to kill for them. He might spare Snape thinking Dumbledore wouldn't want Harry to kill Snape. But what would be missing is a sense of empathy that Harry usually has for people.
I am supposing that Snape killed Dumbledore in a moment of weakness or panic, that is if Snape didn't kill Dumbledore then and there, the Death Eaters would know that Snape was not loyal to Voldemort but to Dumbledore and his usefulness as a spy would be over. But there is no logical reason for Harry to forgive that kind of action because Harry has never made this type of mistake. (One could argue that Harry regretted using Sectumsempera on Draco, but Harry didn't know what the spell would do).
On the other hand if we take the prevailing idea that Dumbledore ordered Snape to kill him, Harry could forgive Snape because Harry was put in the same type of situation when Harry gave his word to force Dumbledore to drink the liquid in the cave. Harry could then empathize with Snape.
Back to my idea, the only possible parallel to Snape panicking and doing something he regrets would be Harry panicking in the cave when Dumbledore asked for water and Harry couldn't do it and so felt that the only way to give Dumbledore water was to take it from the lake. (Before this Dumbledore warns not to touch the water.) It would be ironic if this is what would cause Dumbledore to eventually die (that is if Snape hadn't have beaten him to it). I will admit that Dumbledore ordering Snape to kill him has better literary symmetry.
I'm not sure Snape came up with the Fidelus Charm to protect the Potters from Voldemort. He might have but I don't think he was talking to James as I would question whether Dumbledore told James that Snape was a spy. How good was James at Occlumency? But there is no doubt that Snape warned Dumbledore not to have James use Sirius as the secret keeper and that Snape never forgave James for using Sirius.
Magic words, I agree with the distinction that you make between reason he turned and proof he turned.
Gina R Snape - Apr 17, 2006 2:13 pm (#1813 of 2969)
ramb, the only problem I see with scenario number one is that Snape appears in absolutely no way to be panicking up on the tower. If anything, he looks so completely in control that it convinces me he is acting on a plan. We've seen him act smoothly in chaos before, but not like this.
As much as I love and believe in Snape, I can see another side at least. We are all eagerly awaiting book 7 and I will be furious if some of our most burning Snape questions are left unresolved.
I also think it's possible for Harry not to forgive Snape, but for Snape to be redeemed nonetheless. Our opinions may be shaped by Harry, but clearly JKR has written things in such a way as to leave a door open so we can draw independent conclusions and make independent decisions regarding him.
HungarianHorntail11 - Apr 17, 2006 4:34 pm (#1814 of 2969)
Yes, Gina, but I think if Harry and Snape do not come to some sort of "understanding" I'm afraid it will leave it unfinished in my esteem for this series.
Gina R Snape - Apr 17, 2006 4:43 pm (#1815 of 2969)
Ah, well thats a different cauldron of potion.
Soul Search - Apr 17, 2006 5:00 pm (#1816 of 2969)
Edited Apr 17, 2006 6:01 pm
Once Draco refused Dumbledore's protection offer and the other Death Eaters arrived on the tower, either Dumbledore or Snape had to die. If Snape did not kill Dumbledore, then Snape either died because of the unbreakable vow or his usefulness as a spy ended (and Voldemort went after him.)
Dumbledore had already decided, and insisted Snape follow that decision, that Snape would be of more use to Harry and the cause of good than he could.
Given that, I think Snape and Harry will be a major part of the book seven storyline and that everything about Snape will be resolved.
wynnleaf - Apr 18, 2006 8:27 am (#1817 of 2969)
Edited Apr 18, 2006 9:32 am
Since things have quieted down a bit, I thought of something from one of the scenes mentioned over the past few days.
In the scene where Severus makes the mean "I see no difference" comment about Hermione's teeth, I think that we, the readers, may see that comment as more particularly mean than Snape would.
As the readers, we know that Hermione is a bit sensitive about her teeth. Her parents are dentists. She probably expects perfect teeth -- teeth in her experience are supposed to be even, white, etc. Her front teeth are a little large and it embarrasses her. When her teeth grow enormously from the hex in the scene, it's particular distressing to her because -- well, it's her teeth.
So when Snape makes his remark, "I see no difference," it's more than an insensitive remark, it seems to practically define the mean attitude of Snape.
But lets look at it another way. We now have strong hints that Snape grew up in a working class, probably more muggle than not, household. His teeth are apparently terrible and he probably didn't have much dental care as a child. He probably got picked on about his teeth in school, just as much as his hair.
As regards, Hermione, he may or may not know that her parents are dentists. He almost certainly doesn't know that she's sensitive about her "larger" than normal front teeth. But even if he did know, I'd imagine he'd have absolutely no sympathy for that kind of sensitivity, since his teeth are so much worse and he almost certainly didn't have parents like Hermione's to make sure they got the best care.
So from Hermione's perspective, he insulted her at a point where she was quite vulnerable.
From Snape's perspective, it was probably a very mildly insensitive remark, because he would probably never see that she has any reason to be embarrassed over her normal teeth. I'd imagine for him, the teeth being hexed was no different from any other hex, and his comment would have been little different regardless.
For instance, if the hex had been a dramatic nail growing hex (like Harry used in HBP), and Snape had used the "I see no difference," comment, no one would have been so much hurt by the comment, as simply frustrated that he wouldn't acknowledge Hermione needed some help to get rid of the some hex effects, just like the Slytherin students needed help. But she wouldn't have been so emotionally hurt by it, and we the readers wouldn't have seen it as one of the primary examples of how utterly mean Snape must be.
Soul Search - Apr 18, 2006 9:30 am (#1818 of 2969)
wynnleaf, well thought out, if a bit prolix.
What you might also be saying is that Snape is quite insensitive. He made the offhand comment to Hermione without knowing her well enough.
A good lesson. Put-down humor can be amusing, until it inadvertantly strikes a sore spot in a recipient.
Then it can have a tragic consequence.
Choices - Apr 18, 2006 9:52 am (#1819 of 2969)
Maybe he just said that to show her that her teeth didn't look as bad as she thought - he really didn't see any difference. LOL OK, maybe not.....I belong to the Defenders of Snape Society, so I have to try. LOL
haymoni - Apr 18, 2006 9:56 am (#1820 of 2969)
Sorry, but weren't her teeth past her collar by the time he made his comment???
The guy is vicious!
I love it though!
Mmm...what does that say about me???
Solitaire - Apr 18, 2006 10:12 am (#1821 of 2969)
I have to side with Haymoni on this one. His comment was intended to hurt.
Solitaire
Gina R Snape - Apr 18, 2006 11:26 am (#1822 of 2969)
snort*
Well I'm usually the first to appreciate a good defense of Snape. But in the case of the teeth, he's just being catty. However, I will say Hermione learns from this lesson not to turn to Snape for sympathy over cosmetic hexes. At least he didn't take points from Gryffindor for her not coming to class and charging off to the infirmary without permission.
haymoni - Apr 18, 2006 11:43 am (#1823 of 2969)
Oh, yes, Gina! Your husband was very generous!
snort*
We are all very lucky that a wife cannot be compelled to testify against her husband!
Dobby Socks - Apr 18, 2006 11:47 am (#1824 of 2969)
Choices,
LOL! I don't know about that, but good effort nonetheless!
Catherine - Apr 18, 2006 12:01 pm (#1825 of 2969)
At least he didn't take points from Gryffindor for her not coming to class and charging off to the infirmary without permission. --GinaRSnape
::snort::
Yes, thank goodness for small favors. I hadn't looked at that scene so optimistically, Gina.
Linedhel - Apr 18, 2006 12:04 pm (#1826 of 2969)
Edited Apr 18, 2006 1:07 pm
Something like this might have been posted before, so I'm sorry if I'm repeating an idea.
In GoF, Sirius says: "...and he(Snape) was part of a gang of Slytherins who nearly all turned out to be Death Eaters.(...)The Lestranges-they're a married couple-they're in Azkaban.Avery-(...)", which seems as though the Lestranges(Bellatrix and Rodolphus, Rabastan-?) we're at the same time at Hogwarts as Snape(and, of course James, Sirius, Lily etc.), with maximum 6 years between them.
In HBP, during the Horcrux memory, Slugorn says: "Lestrange, I want your essay by tomorrow or it's detention.Same goes for you Avery."
Firstly, which Lestrange is he talking about? Rodolphus or Rabastan?
And secondly, Avery is mentioned as being nearly the same age as Tom Marvolo Riddle/Voldemort, but Tom is around 20 years older then Snape. But Sirius sayd that Snape was, at Hogwarts, in the the same gang as Avery.
My question is: With whom was Avery during school, Snape or Voldemort, because they belong to different generations, and there are around 20 years between them.
Very weird...
wynnleaf - Apr 18, 2006 12:09 pm (#1827 of 2969)
I think maybe some of you mistook my meaning. I didn't mean that he wasn't being mean to Hermione. And yes, I realize the comment was made about her teeth being really long -- I mean I picture them like tusks.
But I don't necessarily think he was being any more mean -- for him, that is -- than if it had been one of those long nail growing hexes from HBP that Hermione had been hit with.
I don't necessarily think he targeted that comment to her because he intended to hurt her in a point of vulnerability. I think he'd have said it regardless what the hex had been. But for us readers, it seems especially cruel, because we know Hermione was very vulnerable about her teeth. So for her, the long teeth hex was worse than, say, a long fingernail hex.
I only brought it up to say that once again, Snape seems even more cruel because he made the comment about a hex that we readers know affected an area where Hermione was really vulnerable. If he'd made the same comment about a long-nail hex, we readers wouldn't see it as so over-the-top cruel -- just generally low-grade mean. But for the Snape character, who doesn't know Hermione's vulnerabilities, either situation would be the same as regards degree of intent toward cruelty.
Hey, I'm not trying to say it wasn't a mean remark. What I'm trying to say is that it was very likely not meant to be particularly cruel. And, yes, I agree with your Soul Search. When one uses put-down humor (or not as humor, but a random low-grade insult), it can end up being a lot more harmful than one might expect.
Gina R Snape - Apr 18, 2006 12:44 pm (#1828 of 2969)
Edited Apr 18, 2006 2:37 pm
Linedhel, Avery is this name that keeps popping up in interesting places and a part of me wonder if he isn't a traitor of Voldemort's. I would be very interested to know the time line for the DEs, who were contemporaries, etc. It is, of course, entirely plausible that Voldemort's contemporaries had children who became DEs. Avery may be one of them.
And, I think it would be a very good thing to be a witness for the defense of my darling Severus.
Dobby Socks - Apr 18, 2006 3:11 pm (#1829 of 2969)
wynnleaf,
I actually appreciated your post. I liked your points about Snape’s socioeconomic status which must have afforded him much less opportunity for quality dental care than Hermione. And, besides, I think he would’ve made some kind of snide comment no matter what the hex had been.
On the other hand, young teenage girls as a group tend to be insecure when it comes to anything about their appearance. I find it hard to believe he wouldn’t be aware of that. I wouldn’t think he’d have to know anything about Hermione’s parents’ professions or her particular insecurity about her teeth. Pre Yule Ball, she’s not described as one of the more attractive girls, she’s particularly insecure about her hair and her teeth, she’s muggle born, and she possibly makes up for it by trying to excel academically. Hmmmmm… Anyway, I would think he’d have to know that insulting her appearance would be particularly mean simply because his target is a young teenaged girl not known for her beauty.
Incidentally, I know he doesn’t seem to give Ron a hard time as often as he picks on Harry, Neville, and Hermione. Has he ever made any remarks about Ron being poor (like the Malfoys seem to do to the Weasleys at every opportunity)? I’ve really got to get started on those rereads one of these days.
rambkowalczyk - Apr 18, 2006 4:59 pm (#1830 of 2969)
Wynnleaf,
I too appreciate the thought you put into the article about Snape insulting Hermione's teeth. Try as I might there was no way I could look at that line and not see it as petty and mean. But at least your essay mitigates some of the nastiness.
Magic Words - Apr 18, 2006 5:28 pm (#1831 of 2969)
Dobby Socks, I think you're right that Ron really isn't targeted by Snape the way Harry, Hermione, and Neville are. He just gets the same general treatment as the other Gryffindors. I guess Snape simply has no reason to single him out. We know Snape started off hating Harry for his resemblance to James, and things just went downhill from there. With Hermione, I agree that the tooth remark was over the top, but she did call attention to herself in class a lot, and Snape seems to hate know-it-alls in general. So while befriending Harry certainly didn't help her case, it may not have been the deciding factor in Snape's opinion of her. I think it's interesting that his third target is Neville. I believe this may be because of the prophecy. Snape probably knows that it came down to Neville or Harry, and Voldemort chose to go after Harry first. If we assume that telling Voldemort the prophecy, and the resultant murders, are really the greatest regret of Snape's life, he could hate Neville for surviving where Harry's parents didn't.
Mrs Brisbee - Apr 18, 2006 5:36 pm (#1832 of 2969)
Edited Apr 18, 2006 6:36 pm
Snape does target Ron during DADA in HBP: "I would expect nothing more sophisticated from you, Ronald Weasley, the boy so solid he cannot Apparate half an inch across a room." (HBP, Ch 21, "The Unknowable Room")
That's a personal attack on Ron that had no place in the DADA classroom.
wynnleaf - Apr 18, 2006 7:09 pm (#1833 of 2969)
Edited Apr 18, 2006 8:09 pm
Try as I might there was no way I could look at that line and not see it as petty and mean.
Thanks to everyone who at least felt there was some value in a bit different perspective on the teeth comment.
I must say, I can't quite understand how my comments came across like I didn't think the comment was petty and mean. I did think it was petty and mean, but simply not over-the-top mean, and probably without a specific intent to hit Hermione at her point of vulnerability. I brought up this particular incident primarily because I've seen it used so often as Big Evidence of a particularly humiliating remark.
It is interesting some of the things that Snape appears to never use against students. He never uses the issue of being poor or the blood purity issue. These are used often by Draco Malfoy, but never by Severus. And with Neville, Severus never ever comments on his parents. Yet if Neville's grandmother is to be believed, there's a noticeable difference in the ability of Frank and Alice, and the apparent (on the surface) ability of Neville. His grandmother seems to compare him negatively to his parents regularly. But Snape, who must have known the Longbottoms, never does this.
Soul Search - Apr 18, 2006 7:37 pm (#1834 of 2969)
I have always thought Snape goaded Neville only for his poor potions work; never for anything personal. It is, of course, a vicious cycle: Neville messes up a potions lesson, Snape torments him about it, so Neville does worse next time.
I thought it particularly despicable that what Neville feared the most was Snape, a teacher (PoA.)
haymoni - Apr 19, 2006 5:04 am (#1835 of 2969)
Ron has sense enough to lay low in Snape's class. He knew he was at a disadvantage as a Gryffindor from day one.
journeymom - Apr 19, 2006 8:17 am (#1836 of 2969)
Yeah, and if Snape took all the way until HBP to lay one on Ron personally then Ron fared pretty well.
Dobby Socks - Apr 19, 2006 8:51 am (#1837 of 2969)
Magic Words, I’ve had that same feeling about Neville – that Snape picks on him so much because he’s one of the prophecy babies. And the reason you give makes sense. It makes more sense when combined with the Lily/Snape theory (in whatever form.) Not that I’m sold on any one particular theory about DD’s trust in Snape yet.
Someone suggested earlier that it might be Snape’s method of teaching to constantly belittle Neville. But it’s clear fairly early on that, if that’s a method, it’s not working.
Besides being “an insufferable know it all” and a close friend of Harry’s, Hermione constantly helps Neville. Which could be an added reason why he often singles her out. Unless two people are partnered by the teacher to work on a project, this really isn’t acceptable behavior in any classroom.
Wynnleaf: “ It is interesting some of the things that Snape appears to never use against students. He never uses the issue of being poor or the blood purity issue. These are used often by Draco Malfoy, but never by Severus.” Thanks wynnleaf, I didn’t think so, but there have been so many scenes of Snape’s classroom in the series I thought I might be forgetting something. I wonder if this goes to Snape’s credit as clearly non-DE behavior, or if it’s based on steering clear of issues that he felt insecure about during his school years (or both.)
Mrs. Brisbee, yes, there is that encounter, but, although Ron was a bit fixated on his inability to apparate at the moment, I highly doubt Snape’s comment had any lasting effect on him. One of the things I really enjoyed about the DADA passages in HBP was that the kids were finally standing up to Snape. Despite the very few views we had into this class, the barbs hurled back and forth (from both sides) were hilarious. I found Snape’s jab quite funny, as I did Ron’s which immediately preceded it.
Weeny Owl - Apr 19, 2006 9:39 am (#1838 of 2969)
I always thought the Lestrange in Slughorn's memory was the father of Rabastan and Rodolphus.
There's more than twenty years between Snape and Voldemort. Voldemort graduated around 1945, so he would have been born around 1926, give or take a couple of years. Snape was born about 1960. Voldemort is 30-35 yeras older than Snape, so chances are the Lestrange brothers are the sons of a Voldemort contemporary and not the ones in the Slughorn memory.
We know little about the Lestranges and their relationship with Snape, but we do know that there's a strong rivalry between Bella and Snape. As for me, if it ever comes down to a duel between her and Snape, I'll vote for Snape winning.
Choices - Apr 19, 2006 11:17 am (#1839 of 2969)
I think the fact that Snape never mentions economic status or the blood purity issue is because it hits too close to home for him. Indications are that he was from a relatively poor family and his father was a Muggle, so he doesn't dare make remarks to a student concerning those issues.
der 905 - Apr 20, 2006 8:57 am (#1840 of 2969)
It could also be that he isn't ashamed of his economic and blood status, but he won't brag about it either. I know my family was in Ron's economic status when we were growing up and we weren't ashamed of it and it certainly didn't bother us. We believe growing up like that made us better people because we weren't spoiled brats(a-la Draco). We don't tell everyone how we grew up, but we wouldn't make fun of others in that situation either, since we don't see it as a bad thing. This could be Snape's situation as well, he doesn't wear his situation on his sleeve but doesn't feel it was all that bad either.
Solitaire, you are right that Snape "seems" to favor Draco. I am still uncertain regarding Snape's relationship with Draco and the Malfoys, however. I note that most of the examples of "kindness" towards Draco are to Harry's or others' disadvantage. The HBP scene where Snape removes Draco from Slughorn's Christmas party might be more indicative of his relationship with Draco than, say, the PoA scene where Draco pretends to be injured.
Snape doesn't torment other Slytherins in class, but I don't see that he really favors any, either.
Could it be that Snape only pressures those students he sees as having potential, ignoring those without any particular skills? Harry aside, he mostly torments Hermione and Neville. 'Course, this could just be because they are friends of Harry's.
I didn't mean Snape treats adults and students the same. He treats students the same as other students. He treats adults the same. Except Dumbledore; he is quite respective of Dumbledore.
I sold Slughorn a little short in my judgement of Hogwarts teaching. Slughorn seems to employ the basics of teaching better than other Hogwarts professors, although over-favoring Harry in classes.
journeymom - Apr 16, 2006 9:43 am (#1792 of 2969)
I thought about that but decided that Dumbledore would have been angry with Snape if word got back to him that Snape physically hurt Harry. Members of the Order were probably in contact with Dd while Umbridge was in control of Hogwarts.
Though I prefer your reason, Weeny.
I prefer to think that Snape is a nasty, grouchy, emotionally stunted, tragically misunderstood figure.
wynnleaf - Apr 16, 2006 10:07 am (#1793 of 2969)
Edited Apr 16, 2006 11:11 am
As to whether or not Snape would use physical punishment if he could...
Even without corporal punishment, it is clearly okay for teachers to give dangerous detentions to students. Note that McGonagall gives Harry, Ron and Draco detention with Hagrid which includes taking them on a dangerous trip into the Forbidden Forest. In contrast, Snape's detentions focus on hard physical work -- cleaning cauldrons, preparing strange potions ingredients, etc. He does have the option to give more dangerous detentions and he doesn't do it.
Speaking of detentions, it is interesting to note the punishment he gave Harry for the Sectumsempra use on Draco. Other than expressing his regret, Harry never gives Snape any sort of adequate explanation for what occurred for him to use that curse on Draco. Of course, there was no excuse for using a Dark curse. Anyway, without any more to go on than Harry mentioned, Snape would only have the evidence of his own eyes. And by that evidence alone, Harry had clearly almost killed Draco with a particularly vicious curse. Even McGonagall later told Harry that he was lucky not to be expelled. But Snape never even seems to consider trying to get him expelled. He only uses detentions that also effectively end Quidditch for Harry for the year. Even the detention Snape gives is not a particularly terrible detention to give. While Snape's later remarks about Harry running across evidence of the Marauder's past detentions is mean spirited, the detention itself is actually quite mild in comparison to Harry's almost killing another student.
Snape's actions after Harry's use of Sectumsempra are very interesting. Not asking for Harry to be expelled is illuminating, I think. As I recall (could be wrong), Snape doesn't try to get Harry expelled after POA -- maybe not after CoS. I always thought it was not a coincidence for that to change about the same time that signs appeared that LV was making a possible comeback. McGonagall may have told Harry he was lucky to not be expelled in HBP, but I doubt if that would have ever been considered once LV started to return.
winlia - Apr 16, 2006 11:18 am (#1794 of 2969)
Edited Apr 16, 2006 1:33 pm
I took Umbridge to be a psychopath. (Are they called sociopaths these day?) She looks for excuses to do harm because she enjoys doing harm, although she tries to be "normal" enough to operate in society. I would say that disqualifies her for any heroic actions at the end of book 7--she's too far gone to be redeemed. I don't think Snape is quite in that class, but he does have his moments.
I just reread the chapters surronding shrieking shack. Sirius has (had) some issues too. I can stretch my imagination to believe that a 15 or 16-year-old could initiate a prank that might result in someone's death without fully thinking through the consequences, but for a middle-aged man, Azkaban or no Azkaban, to say something along the lines of, well, you deserved it, always sneaking around, is appalling. Maybe JKR just exaggerates every-day unkindness/conflict for dramatic effect?
There was some discussion a few days back regarding Severus' motivation for not pushing for expulsion after the shrieking shack episode. I don't know if he truly believed that the children were confunded, but he definately felt that they were wrong in thinking Black innocent. He desperately wanted Sirius punished, and he was focusing on that outcome. He reminds DD that Black was a murderer at 16, and says to him, "... You haven't forgotten that he tried to kill me?" Maybe JKR included the over-the-top teenage prank that nearly killed Severus as a way a justifying some of his later unkindnesses? Got to admit, nearly being killed is an excellent reason for disliking someone and their running buddies (and offspring).
Unpon rereading, I also see that we have only Severus' word for when he woke up and what he saw. He says that he saw the dementors retreating but not what made them do so. No mention of having seen the transformed Lupin--I must have gotten caught up in the "movie contamination" that someone mentioned. I like that phrase.
I also thoroughly enjoyed the "spinner's end location" link. Thank you Wynnleaf!
I haven't checked into the Smiths yet, though I plan to do so.
Also regarding the shrieking shack events in PoA...I can suspend disbelieve easily enough when it comes to werewolves, wizards, animated tree, etc., but a cooperative cat? I love cats, we've had many over the years, but I've never been able to get so much as the time of day from any of them.
Solitaire - Apr 16, 2006 3:02 pm (#1795 of 2969)
Edited Apr 16, 2006 4:04 pm
Got to admit, nearly being killed is an excellent reason for disliking someone and their running buddies (and offspring).
Was Snape even mildly injured in that incident? He certainly might have been killed, had he continued down the tunnel. But he didn't continue ... James pulled him back and prevented his even being injured, I believe. Snape was certainly in a dangerous situation which could have led to either his death or a Werewolf bite. Still, I can't help believing the entire incident would never have taken place at all, had he not been sneaking around and spying on the Marauders.
Of course, I do not blame Snape for hating the Marauders because of what happened. That would have been a natural "kid response" to the situation. I do feel that blaming Harry for James's so-called transgressions is a bit overboard. I can't help it ... I do.
Solitaire
winlia - Apr 16, 2006 3:26 pm (#1796 of 2969)
Solitare,
That incident wouldn't justify Snape wanting harm to come to Harry (or Lupin or James), but I think it's enough to keep him from liking Harry or anyone else having anything to do with James and Co. Especially given that Harry looks like James. It seems to be the motivation for outing Lupin as a werewolf.
Somebody else mentioned Snape "giving as good as he got". Technically, he may have--he seems to be pretty good with a spell. I think the difference is that Severus' attacks didn't hurt James' popularity, but James may have seriously impaired Severus' ability to make friends. In the shrieking shack episode, Lupin recalls how running as a werewolf with his animagus friends were the best times of his life. Enough so that Lupin says he disregarded the potential danger that his running loose transformed posed. So friendship is positioned as extremely important and a motivation for reckless action.
My guess is that the social fallout from James' continued humiliation of Severus pushed Severus toward the deatheaters. (I know, I know, Severus has to take responsibility for his own actions. I fully agree.)
HungarianHorntail11 - Apr 16, 2006 4:07 pm (#1797 of 2969)
Edited Apr 16, 2006 5:14 pm
Perhaps this is a bit off the current path, but while reading some of these posts back to back, I had a thought.
winlia posted: My take is that the much-debated conversation in the forest is about death. When Severus says that he doesn't want to do it any more, I took him at his word--that the spying and the prospect of DD's death had become so overwhelming that he was not going to honor the unbreakable vow.
I agree that it was about death and more specifically, about the DD incident to come. If, indeed, Snape had reached the point where he no longer wanted to honor the UV, that would translate into harming himself, possibly even leading to his death. (What is the penalty for an unfulfilled UV - does it depend on the nature of the UV?) Would that be his choice over AKing DD? That would explain why he was so affronted by being called a coward. If so, Harry was ignorant to the fact that Snape offered DD an alternative in such a manner. Perhaps, though, DD had a plan and Snape was concerned that the AK would work and kill DD.
I feel as though many people (most) have gone through difficult times at one point or another, and if they have not yet, they will. However, not everyone deals with people in the same manner. Though there have been valid points in Snape's favor, I also believe that there is great strength in not taking your hostilities out on others. As for his treatment of Neville, patience is a virtue, or so they say.
Nathan Zimmermann - Apr 16, 2006 4:31 pm (#1798 of 2969)
Edited Apr 16, 2006 5:51 pm
I had a thought on the character of Severus Snape. While, I was rereading HBP chapter nine. The classroom door opened as she spoke, and Snape stepped into the corridor, his sallow face framed as ever by two curtains of greasy black hair. Silence fell over the queue immediately. "Inside," he said. (HBP large print edition page 231)
The fear that Snape inspires seem to me to be reminiscent of the Machiavellian ideal that it is better to be feared rather than loved. In that Severus draws strength from the fear he inspires. The manner in which he deals with his students demonstrates projects the image of the stern task master in order to ensure that his decisions are not questioned by his students.
wynnleaf - Apr 16, 2006 7:59 pm (#1799 of 2969)
Edited Apr 16, 2006 10:01 pm
I tend to think that James' Marauder past is not the only reason for Snape's hatred, nor his passing along that dislike to Harry. I realize this gets into "theory" territory, but since DD said Snape's greatest regret was LV targeting the Potters, and it seems highly unlikely he'd be concerned with James, it seems to hint strongly that Snape cared in some way for Lily. Why else would it be his greatest regret?
In POA, Severus furiously mentions in the Shrieking Shack James' "arrogance" in believing that he could trust Sirius. Why was Severus so furious that James would trust Sirius? He disliked/hated them both anyway and always knew they were good friends. Of course they'd trust each other. My guess is that his hatred of James actually increased with the Potter's deaths. If Severus was the spy that warned that LV was targeting the Potters, as well as the spy that warned of a traitor in their midst, then Severus may well have warned James about trusting his friends with the Fidelius Charm. If Severus felt that James' "arrogance" in disregarding his (Severus') warning, and trusting his friends was the cause of Lily's death, then that could be a much stronger reason for Severus' degree of continuing hate. It would also explain why James' "arrogance" became the biggest flaw/insult that Severus uses when insulting James' memory to Harry. Further, when he looks at Harry, he sees the image of James and thinks of Harry as having the same arrogance -- the arrogance that got Lily killed. Yes, Lily died for Harry, but that could work both ways in giving Severus another reason to resent Harry, but also inspire protection for Lily's sake.
On another note, I think it's important to remember that most likely no other Hogwarts professor other than DD has anywhere near the stresses that Severus has. There's no just leaving LV's service, as we found with Karkarov. Snape really has no choice about going back to LV. If he never went back, LV would seek him out and kill him eventually. So he is forced to become a spy (for one side or the other). Within the walls of Hogwarts he has to walk a fine line of appearing a faithful DE to the children of DE's, as well as being faithful to DD and accomplishing DD's purposes. He cannot afford to develop particularly close friendships even within the Order (even if that suited his temperament), because he cannot appear to LV to be anything other than LV's man. But on the other hand, he cannot have real friends among DE's if he's not truly one. Whatever friendship he ever had with Lucius became extremely problematic the moment Snape switched sides to DD. He can be called to do LV's bidding at any time. Other DE's are jealous and suspicious of him and apparently attempt to feed their doubts to LV -- who would clearly kill him if he were revealed to be a traitor. On the other side, members of the Order admit they only trust Snape because DD says to do so. On top of all this, he gets called on to "save the day" on a number of occasions of which we're told -- who knows about others. Katie Bell, DD's arm, protecting Harry at various times, come to mind. Then he's also the head of a house with a lot of DE kids, most likely a house that has more internal difficulties than other houses. And he's got to deal with kids under his care that may be likely to become DE's themselves. He can't openly tell them not to join LV, because that would blow his cover. So he has to watch kids he may actually care about (Draco, for instance) go over to LV without being able to do anything actively to prevent it.
And then he's bound to know that the Gryffindor students who are actually privy to information about him being a spy (Harry, Hermione, and the Weasley kids), seem to be intent on proving that he's really working for LV and a traitor.
None of these factors is going to make him very pleasant to be around. And I would think these sorts of stresses would work to increase his resentment of others.
Solitaire - Apr 16, 2006 8:14 pm (#1800 of 2969)
Very nicely stated, Nathan. I really agree with you.
Winlia, I suppose that debating the James-Snape hostilities is a lot like debating "Which came first--the chicken or the egg?" Depending on one's perspective, it can be seen from either direction.
I have no doubt that Snape joined the DEs in an effort to acquire the status he'd always been denied in the Wizarding World. However, we have already been told that Snape was "up to his eyeballs in the Dark Arts" when he walked through the doors at Hogwarts, so it is also possible that he would have gravitated to anyone who was associated with them. There is also the possibility that he was shunned by some outside the WW, too, because of his Half-Blood status. In fact, it could have been that which initially sparked his interest in the Dark Arts.
I keep thinking about one of the things Harry sees in the Pensieve: a hook-nosed man was shouting at a cowering woman, while a small dark-haired boy cried in a corner ... I admit it's tough to imagine a witch--who could have grabbed her kid and disapparated--sticking around and putting up with abuse by a Muggle, but maybe she did. If Snape did grow up in a situation where he and his mother were abused by his father or shunned by her family, that could certainly account for his interest in the Dark Arts. He might have wanted to have the means to get some revenge, once he was old enough to do so.
This intense interest in the Dark Arts, whatever its trigger, would have attracted the instant dislike of someone like James, who hated the Dark Arts. I think there was more to it, however. I think Sirius may have had some prior knowledge of Snape outside Hogwarts. James certainly disliked Snape, but Sirius truly hated him. Why? Surely it was more than just Snape trying to get them expelled. Could Snape have sparked an interest in the Dark Arts in a young, impressionable Regulus? They were, after all, in the same house at Hogwarts. I've often wondered if perhaps it was Snape who recruited Regulus into the DEs and caused his death. Of course, that would have been after Hogwarts ... and it is only speculation anyway. There is no evidence for such an idea.
As for Snape's "continued humiliation" at James's hand ... I have a hard time imagining James and Sirius following Snape around and gunning for him. I think Snape's continued spying and following the Marauders around, trying to get some dirt on them, is the reason he kept running afoul of James and Sirius. Maybe Snape was trying to do "something big" at Hogwarts to gain the attention of the older Slytherins; I don't know. I do know that his near encounter with Remus in Werewolf form happened because he was poking around in their business. If he'd stayed away from them, it probably never would have happened. JM2K ...
At my last school, one of my students was forever tailing the local gang leader around, trying to tweak his nose. In the halls between classes, he would poke him, try to trip him, etc. He was generally ignored, which probably bothered him even more. When he did provoke a reaction, even if it was only verbal, he would run to the teachers or administration and squeal. Students, teachers, and administration all knew what was happening. We didn't like the gang, but we also knew they were not provoking this particular problem. I've often wondered if this kid ever got thumped after I left. He certainly asked for it often enough!
Solitaire
winlia - Apr 16, 2006 8:47 pm (#1801 of 2969)
Wynnleaf I don't have time to go back and check the book (leaving on a business trip tomorrow) but, when Harry and DD are discussing the prophecy, and DD talks about Snape's greatest regret, does DD finish his sentence? For some reason, I can't see the Severus/Lily connection, except as friends, and hasn't JKR dropped a hint about Severus having had some sort of relationship? I keep thinking that the reason DD knew that Severus is loyal is that Severus lost someone he loved to LV. Other than Lily.
Solitare, I really like the Regulus idea. Makes the dislike between Snape and Sirius more personal.
I realize that Severus was trying to get information on the werewolf activities of James and Co. so that he could get them expelled. Given how much it meant to Lupin, that would clearly make them very angry. But as you said, we don't know who started the ill will.
Saracene - Apr 16, 2006 8:55 pm (#1802 of 2969)
Edited Apr 16, 2006 10:01 pm
Regarding Snape "giving as good as he got": I have no doubt that Snape could hex James as well as James did Snape, but I also think that one has to take into account their vastly unequal social status when looking at their feud. James was a handsome, popular, admired student while Snape was an unnatractive oddball clearly at the bottom of the social ladder. In the Pensieve scene, James obviously had the full support and approval of the crowd while Snape had no one but Lily to stick up for him. I just don't think that there was any way that Snape could pay James back by doing what James did to him in that scene - attack him in the full view of the other students and humiliate him publicly while the rest cheered and applauded. Snape's social status and general unpopularity simply wouldn't allow him to "give as good as he got" humiliation-wise, and I'm sure that it's humiliation that drives him up the wall - not hexes and jinxes as such.
As for who started it... well Sirius said that Snape and James loathed each other from the moment they saw each other. Maybe the animosity was simply something on a purely instinctive level - hate on first sight,
Rather than because of something concrete either of them did to another. Regarding Snape's regret, Dumbledore doesn't finish the story but he very definitely says that Snape felt the greatest remorse of his life when he realised how Voldemort interpreted the prophecy and that it is also the reason he returned. Therefore I think that Snape's regret, if it was real, is very much linked with Harry's parents.
wynnleaf - Apr 16, 2006 9:12 pm (#1803 of 2969)
Edited Apr 16, 2006 10:16 pm
I may be wrong, but wasn't it Remus Lupin that said the "gave as good as he got" remark? And if not him it would have been Sirius.
I see not the slightest reason to trust anything Sirius may have said about Severus. This, after all, is the guy who still thought he was justified to endanger Snape's life with the Shrieking Shack incident.
As for Lupin -- and I Really, Really do like Lupin, believe me -- I don't believe we can believe Lupin when he's trying to stick up for the Maruaders. Why not? Well, in POA, Lupin thought Sirius was a murderer of 13 people right up until the end of the book. But even while he thought Sirius was a murderer, he was willing to conceal Sirius status as an animagus as well as the secret passages in Hogwarts, primarily because of his friendship.
Can you picture the search of the castle by the faculty and staff after the Pink Lady's painting was slashed? What was Lupin doing? Going all over that castle, pretending to search for Sirius, when in reality he knew the guy could turn into a dog and get out a secret passage. If Lupin was willing to be that deceitful to protect his friend, why should we trust his remarks about Severus, particularly when the primary intent is to show that the Marauders weren't any worse than Snape?
Lupin was willing to put every child in that castle at risk, including Harry, rather than reveal what he knew.
And in the "Snape's worst memory" scene, Lupin was willing to basically sit on his hands and do nothing even though he was a prefect. Why? Apparently because he couldn't stand up to James and Sirius.
Yet when Harry is concerned about the actions of James and Sirius, we are supposed to believe Remus, when he gives "evidence" that Severus gave "just as bad as he got?" He could just be protecting his friends once again.
Solitaire - Apr 16, 2006 9:43 pm (#1804 of 2969)
It probably was Remus who made the statement, Wynnleaf; I don't have my book handy to check. The difference between us with regard to his credibilty is that I do believe Remus is reliable. Every time I have read that passage in OotP--about his not standing up to James and Sirius--I sense regret in his comments.
Remus is the one Marauder who has been able to move beyond the past. Even before he was killed, Sirius was still "stuck" where he was when he entered Akzaban. James is dead. Peter--well, his problems are obvious. Remus has had many years to reflect on his past and consider where he made mistakes, and I think he has done just that. Of all the Marauders, he strikes me as the one who was most sensitive and is most capable of realizing the errors of his past ... even where Snape is concerned. Remus sought no vengeance against Snape for outting him. I doubt Snape would have accepted such an offense without seeking revenge.
We just see things differently ... which is okay. Differences are one of the things which propel the forum!
Solitaire
Saracene - Apr 16, 2006 10:44 pm (#1805 of 2969)
Edited Apr 16, 2006 11:50 pm
Actually, Lupin made it clear in PoA that the reason he did not say anything about Sirius' animagus status was not because of friendship. It was simply because he was too cowardly to confess to Dumbledore that he betrayed his trust while he was at school, that he broke the rules set up for his own and others' safety, and led his three friends into becoming Animagi illegally. Lupin also admits that even back then he felt guilty about deceiving Dumbledore, but managed to suppress his guilt - and that he has done the same thing again as an adult. So while Lupin is obviously very well aware of his mistakes and problems, as an adult he hasn't been able to do the next step and actually move beyond them.
As for Lupin and whether what he says about Snape can be relied on, while I don't think that Lupin would tell an outright lie I wouldn't rely on him to tell the full story either. Lupin was a friend of both James and Sirius and he naturally wants Harry to think the best of his father. He obviously feels regret about not standing up to his friends where their treatment of Snape was concerned - but it's worth remembering that he has only voiced this sentiment -after- Harry had seen the Pensieve scene and learnt a very unpleasant truth about his father's past. Prior to that, why, Lupin gave Harry no indication whatsoever that something like Pensieve scene ever happened; in PoA he tells Harry that Snape disliked James especially and that he thinks it must have been because Snape was jealous of James' skills at Quidditch. Which very easily could have been a -part- of the truth, but obviously it wasn't the -whole- truth.
wynnleaf - Apr 17, 2006 5:27 am (#1806 of 2969)
Edited Apr 17, 2006 6:49 am
I did realize that Remus said that he didn't tell about Sirius being an animagus, or the secret passages because he was too ashamed to tell DD. I should have mentioned that. But I have never really thought that was the whole story -- any more than Severus being jealous of James' Quidditch skills was anywhere near the real story behind their animosity.
The problem with Remus -- and please remember I DO like Remus -- is that he seems to have a big weakness when it comes to wanting to preserve the good opinion of those he cares about. So he appears to be willing to cover up truth, give partial truths, or simply avoid saying anything, in order to maintain the good opinion of DD, Harry, Sirius and James.
Think about it... He told Harry that James and Severus' animosity stemmed from Severus' jealousy of Quidditch skills. This was almost certainly only a tiny part of it, if any part. He wouldn't tell James and Sirius -- even though a prefect -- that what they were doing to Severus was wrong. He wouldn't tell DD about Sirius being an animagus, or about the secret passageways -- even though he thought Sirius was likely a dangerous murderer intent on killing Harry. He continued in this deception even after Sirius had got into the Gryffindor dorm areas.
And as Saracene pointed out, Lupin only "comes clean" after Harry learns about more of the truth from other sources.
On Severus' part, he has stated in the meanest ways he can that James was arrogant. Whether or not this was really the truth, there is evidence to bear out Severus' reasons for believing in James' arrogance. We know that James went ahead with a fidelius charm with a Marauder as secret keeper even in the face of a warning of a possible traitor there. We know he acted arrogantly and as a bully in the pensieve scene. These may not be the "norm" for James, but my point is that we do have evidence for Snape's comments.
Further, Snape said that Sirius tried to kill him. While we don't know the complete story, we do have collaborative comments from DD that this was the case.
In POA, Severus said that Lupin was untrustworthy and was helping Sirius. While Lupin wasn't directly helping Sirius (since he wasn't in contact with him), it did turn out that Severus was correct and Lupin was in fact being quite dishonest and was hiding information that was helping Sirius. Further, it turned out that Remus could not be trusted to remember his wolfsbane potion during crisis situations.
My point is that while Remus speaks in a gentle and sincere voice, he often does not tell the truth. While Snape speaks in a mean, bitter way, what he has actually said about the Marauders turns out to be corroborated by outside evidence.
As regards some things we "learn" from Sirius and Remus about Snape...
He came to Hogwarts knowing more Dark curses than upper year students -- No Collaborative Evidence.
He "gave as good as he got." Ditto -- No Collaborative Evidence. In fact, we have hints of evidence to the contrary in that the pensieve scene shows the Marauders ganging up on Snape, and Harry's detentions with Snape in HBP reveal lots of detentions for the Marauders, but no mention of detentions for Snape. Sure, he could have been better at concealing what he did, but I'm just saying that there's no real evidence to support the "gave as good as he got" comment.
He was jealous of James' Quidditch skills. Ditto -- No Collaborative Evidence.
He was always following the Marauders around trying to get them expelled. Maybe, but once again, other than trying to figure out where Lupin went every month we have no collaborative evidence that Snape followed the Marauders around a lot.
rambkowalczyk - Apr 17, 2006 5:58 am (#1807 of 2969)
To backtrack about 49 posts or so,
Wynnleaf, Regarding the Harry filter I agree that the example you gave (POA Potions when Snape had Harry/Ron help Draco) is an excellant example of how JKR writes things that shows Harry's point of view rather than an unbiased one. But it also shows Snape showing how to take advantage of a situation. Although in one sense he knew his actions were perfectly reasonable,(I can see him explaining this to McGonagall in the teacher's lounge) he also knew it would annoy Harry to no end.
Someone pointed out in the last day or two about Snape giving Harry a zero in potions because Snape broke his flask. This happened in OOP soon after Snape's worst memory. Throughout that class Snape acted as though Harry was invisible. After Harry handed in his beaker he i turned away when he heard a smashing noise; Malfoy gave i a gleeful yell of laughter. ... his potion ... on the floor and i Snape was surveying him with a look of gloating pleasure. It is possible that Malfoy knocked the potion off the desk (using magic) and Snape "didn't know" who did this and considered it an unfortunate accident.
Solitaire, I agree with your analysis of Snape being the kid who provokes bullys. It is similar to when Draco provokes Harry and Fred by making comments about their mom after the Quidditch game and gets himself beat up.
Gina, I'm not sure if I wrote what you asked. If that passage was written after November of 05, then the answer is no not me. But I would like to comment on the Judas thing.
In both cases it is possible that sympathizers for the betrayer makes them want to come up with an explanation that diminishes the guilt of the betrayer and what better way than to say I was told to do it by the one being betrayed. Also we are lead to believe that it was necessary that this betrayal was done for the greater good. (ie Jesus would never have been crucified and resurrected and Snape's cover as a loyal Death Eater would have been unquestioned.)
Christian theology has both Peter and Judas being Jesus' most loyal followers up to the suicide of Judas. Remember that Peter's denying Jesus 3 times was just as sinful as what Judas did. The difference is that Peter repented whereas Judas never gave himself the chance to repent.
The point is what Snape did was wrong even if his intentions were not evil. What Snape did was wrong even if good were to come as a result of his actions. This means that Snape has to acknowledge that what he did was wrong and ask forgiveness.
Dumbledore may have had a plan set in place but I don't think what happened was what Dumbledore planned. For starters Dumbledore did not expect Death Eaters to enter the castle. By the same token neither did Snape. It is possible when Snape saw Draco, and the Death Eaters around a weakened Dumbledore, Snape panicked, and killed Dumbledore to save himself. (that is he chose to keep his standing with the Death Eater,)
There is an interesting article in the Lexicon, Dumbledore vivens Snapeque bonamicus, which argues that Dumbledore isn't dead. I disagree, but it argued convincingly that there was a loophole in the Unbreakable Vow that would have spared Snape from killing Dumbledore. "Should it prove necessary ... if Draco seems to fail..." The argument is that it would never prove necessary to kill Dumbledore.
My guess was that the original plan was to fake Dumbledore's death because both Dumbledore and Snape believed that this loophole existed. This was what Dumbledore intended to show Harry.
Gina R Snape - Apr 17, 2006 7:17 am (#1808 of 2969)
Wynnleaf, I just wanted to say I thought you did a exquisite job of demonstrating the emotional and practical pressure Snape has been under. Bravo.
Ramb, I do think DD thought the DEs would get in. He tells Draco he did not think it possible, but I think that was just part of his coy way of learning how they got in.
I have a friend who emotionally and fervently argues that even if it were an order from DD, killing him was wrong and she'll never be able to forgive Snape. I, on the other hand, see it as an act of war as part of the dirty truth that war makes killers out of men. DD tells Harry that he must obey his orders, and I can well imagine this same or similar speech being given to Snape at the planning of his death.
Finally, I have thought for ages and ages that it was Snape's plan to use the fidelius charm, and his hatred of James increased when James chose one of his buddies as the secret keeper, to his ultimate peril. It is very easy for me to see James getting coaxed into the plan by DD, with Snape whispering DD's ear that trusting one of the marauders is a mistake. But James' arrogance (as Snape sees it) causes him to ignore all suggestions of DD being the secret keeper. So far we've seen how Snape fit into "creating the problem" of the plan to kill the Potters. In my gut I know he was also working to protect them and may see the failure of such a best laid plan as partially a failure of his own, thereby compounding his anger and desire to forge ahead with what needed to be done in the years to come.
Also, I don't think it was ever a possibility for Harry to be expelled. Period. Not so long as DD was around. I think Snape was playing a bluffing game to pull Harry in line and at some point DD told him to stop.
Magic Words - Apr 17, 2006 8:56 am (#1809 of 2969)
To bring up Lily again (re posts 1799 and 1801), I agree with wynnleaf that Snape’s attitude in PoA – railing against James’ arrogance – may indicate that the Potters’ deaths were in fact his greatest regret. It gives a whole new meaning to his lines in the shrieking shack: “revenge is sweet” and “I hoped I’d be the one to catch you.” I think his reaction is plausible even if he and Lily were just friends. I like to think, rather than revenge or love for a single person motivating Snape’s change of allegiance, Lily’s death opened his eyes to the kind of people he was supporting. If he knew and liked her, maybe hers was the first death he couldn’t ignore or rationalize away, and it forced him to realize how ruthless and evil Voldemort really was.
And winlia (post 1801), you’re right, DD doesn’t finish his sentence. I think he gets as far as “the greatest regret of his life and the reason he turned-” I think that’s far enough for us to say with near certainty that he meant “the reason he turned spy.” By the way, I’d like to point out to any Snape-is-a-DE-theorists reading this thread (since I have a friend who keeps trying to argue this point with me) that there can be a huge difference between “the reason he turned” and “the proof that he turned.” Harry assumes that DD’s reason for trusting Snape is that Snape told him he regretted the Potters’ deaths. But the proof Snape gave DD doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with that. JM2K
Ramb, thanks for explaining the flask incident. It was shortly after the Worst Memory scene; that’s what I was wondering.
wynnleaf - Apr 17, 2006 9:20 am (#1810 of 2969)
Edited Apr 17, 2006 10:22 am
I actually see a long-standing hatred for James to be more realistic if Lily was a friend rather than a school-age love interest.
To flip the scenario around, how would we expect Harry to react if Hermione ended up marrying his worst enemy, Draco, (we'll pretend Draco turned good) and then some ill-considered (to Harry) action on Draco's part ended up getting her killed? We'd expect Harry to hate Draco forever probably. Imagine Draco letting one of his friends, Crabb or Goyle, be a secret keeper for him -- over Harry's warnings that one may be a DE -- only to discover that the secret keeper was in league with LV and gave up the secret. I'd expect Harry to always think that that her death was a result of Draco's arrogance, Draco's mistake. We could toss in a scenario where it was all partly Harry's fault, but it would still be believable for Harry to blame Draco, because he's already been willing to bury his own blame for Sirius' death in order to blame someone else.
Hey, that was pretty weird wasn't it? <grin>
Not that I'd think we've got any kind of evidence of such a strong friendship between Snape and Lily -- but it could still turn out that they were quite close.
Gina R Snape - Apr 17, 2006 9:25 am (#1811 of 2969)
Oooh, Wynnleaf, maybe you should that as a fanfic!
rambkowalczyk - Apr 17, 2006 12:04 pm (#1812 of 2969)
Gina, Although I may argue that Snape killing Dumbledore was wrong, unlike your friend I can forgive him. Unfortunately Snape's redemption depends on not me forgiving him but on Harry's forgiveness. One could argue that Harry spared Wormtail for betraying his parents because he figured his parents would not want his friends to kill for them. He might spare Snape thinking Dumbledore wouldn't want Harry to kill Snape. But what would be missing is a sense of empathy that Harry usually has for people.
I am supposing that Snape killed Dumbledore in a moment of weakness or panic, that is if Snape didn't kill Dumbledore then and there, the Death Eaters would know that Snape was not loyal to Voldemort but to Dumbledore and his usefulness as a spy would be over. But there is no logical reason for Harry to forgive that kind of action because Harry has never made this type of mistake. (One could argue that Harry regretted using Sectumsempera on Draco, but Harry didn't know what the spell would do).
On the other hand if we take the prevailing idea that Dumbledore ordered Snape to kill him, Harry could forgive Snape because Harry was put in the same type of situation when Harry gave his word to force Dumbledore to drink the liquid in the cave. Harry could then empathize with Snape.
Back to my idea, the only possible parallel to Snape panicking and doing something he regrets would be Harry panicking in the cave when Dumbledore asked for water and Harry couldn't do it and so felt that the only way to give Dumbledore water was to take it from the lake. (Before this Dumbledore warns not to touch the water.) It would be ironic if this is what would cause Dumbledore to eventually die (that is if Snape hadn't have beaten him to it). I will admit that Dumbledore ordering Snape to kill him has better literary symmetry.
I'm not sure Snape came up with the Fidelus Charm to protect the Potters from Voldemort. He might have but I don't think he was talking to James as I would question whether Dumbledore told James that Snape was a spy. How good was James at Occlumency? But there is no doubt that Snape warned Dumbledore not to have James use Sirius as the secret keeper and that Snape never forgave James for using Sirius.
Magic words, I agree with the distinction that you make between reason he turned and proof he turned.
Gina R Snape - Apr 17, 2006 2:13 pm (#1813 of 2969)
ramb, the only problem I see with scenario number one is that Snape appears in absolutely no way to be panicking up on the tower. If anything, he looks so completely in control that it convinces me he is acting on a plan. We've seen him act smoothly in chaos before, but not like this.
As much as I love and believe in Snape, I can see another side at least. We are all eagerly awaiting book 7 and I will be furious if some of our most burning Snape questions are left unresolved.
I also think it's possible for Harry not to forgive Snape, but for Snape to be redeemed nonetheless. Our opinions may be shaped by Harry, but clearly JKR has written things in such a way as to leave a door open so we can draw independent conclusions and make independent decisions regarding him.
HungarianHorntail11 - Apr 17, 2006 4:34 pm (#1814 of 2969)
Yes, Gina, but I think if Harry and Snape do not come to some sort of "understanding" I'm afraid it will leave it unfinished in my esteem for this series.
Gina R Snape - Apr 17, 2006 4:43 pm (#1815 of 2969)
Ah, well thats a different cauldron of potion.
Soul Search - Apr 17, 2006 5:00 pm (#1816 of 2969)
Edited Apr 17, 2006 6:01 pm
Once Draco refused Dumbledore's protection offer and the other Death Eaters arrived on the tower, either Dumbledore or Snape had to die. If Snape did not kill Dumbledore, then Snape either died because of the unbreakable vow or his usefulness as a spy ended (and Voldemort went after him.)
Dumbledore had already decided, and insisted Snape follow that decision, that Snape would be of more use to Harry and the cause of good than he could.
Given that, I think Snape and Harry will be a major part of the book seven storyline and that everything about Snape will be resolved.
wynnleaf - Apr 18, 2006 8:27 am (#1817 of 2969)
Edited Apr 18, 2006 9:32 am
Since things have quieted down a bit, I thought of something from one of the scenes mentioned over the past few days.
In the scene where Severus makes the mean "I see no difference" comment about Hermione's teeth, I think that we, the readers, may see that comment as more particularly mean than Snape would.
As the readers, we know that Hermione is a bit sensitive about her teeth. Her parents are dentists. She probably expects perfect teeth -- teeth in her experience are supposed to be even, white, etc. Her front teeth are a little large and it embarrasses her. When her teeth grow enormously from the hex in the scene, it's particular distressing to her because -- well, it's her teeth.
So when Snape makes his remark, "I see no difference," it's more than an insensitive remark, it seems to practically define the mean attitude of Snape.
But lets look at it another way. We now have strong hints that Snape grew up in a working class, probably more muggle than not, household. His teeth are apparently terrible and he probably didn't have much dental care as a child. He probably got picked on about his teeth in school, just as much as his hair.
As regards, Hermione, he may or may not know that her parents are dentists. He almost certainly doesn't know that she's sensitive about her "larger" than normal front teeth. But even if he did know, I'd imagine he'd have absolutely no sympathy for that kind of sensitivity, since his teeth are so much worse and he almost certainly didn't have parents like Hermione's to make sure they got the best care.
So from Hermione's perspective, he insulted her at a point where she was quite vulnerable.
From Snape's perspective, it was probably a very mildly insensitive remark, because he would probably never see that she has any reason to be embarrassed over her normal teeth. I'd imagine for him, the teeth being hexed was no different from any other hex, and his comment would have been little different regardless.
For instance, if the hex had been a dramatic nail growing hex (like Harry used in HBP), and Snape had used the "I see no difference," comment, no one would have been so much hurt by the comment, as simply frustrated that he wouldn't acknowledge Hermione needed some help to get rid of the some hex effects, just like the Slytherin students needed help. But she wouldn't have been so emotionally hurt by it, and we the readers wouldn't have seen it as one of the primary examples of how utterly mean Snape must be.
Soul Search - Apr 18, 2006 9:30 am (#1818 of 2969)
wynnleaf, well thought out, if a bit prolix.
What you might also be saying is that Snape is quite insensitive. He made the offhand comment to Hermione without knowing her well enough.
A good lesson. Put-down humor can be amusing, until it inadvertantly strikes a sore spot in a recipient.
Then it can have a tragic consequence.
Choices - Apr 18, 2006 9:52 am (#1819 of 2969)
Maybe he just said that to show her that her teeth didn't look as bad as she thought - he really didn't see any difference. LOL OK, maybe not.....I belong to the Defenders of Snape Society, so I have to try. LOL
haymoni - Apr 18, 2006 9:56 am (#1820 of 2969)
Sorry, but weren't her teeth past her collar by the time he made his comment???
The guy is vicious!
I love it though!
Mmm...what does that say about me???
Solitaire - Apr 18, 2006 10:12 am (#1821 of 2969)
I have to side with Haymoni on this one. His comment was intended to hurt.
Solitaire
Gina R Snape - Apr 18, 2006 11:26 am (#1822 of 2969)
snort*
Well I'm usually the first to appreciate a good defense of Snape. But in the case of the teeth, he's just being catty. However, I will say Hermione learns from this lesson not to turn to Snape for sympathy over cosmetic hexes. At least he didn't take points from Gryffindor for her not coming to class and charging off to the infirmary without permission.
haymoni - Apr 18, 2006 11:43 am (#1823 of 2969)
Oh, yes, Gina! Your husband was very generous!
snort*
We are all very lucky that a wife cannot be compelled to testify against her husband!
Dobby Socks - Apr 18, 2006 11:47 am (#1824 of 2969)
Choices,
LOL! I don't know about that, but good effort nonetheless!
Catherine - Apr 18, 2006 12:01 pm (#1825 of 2969)
At least he didn't take points from Gryffindor for her not coming to class and charging off to the infirmary without permission. --GinaRSnape
::snort::
Yes, thank goodness for small favors. I hadn't looked at that scene so optimistically, Gina.
Linedhel - Apr 18, 2006 12:04 pm (#1826 of 2969)
Edited Apr 18, 2006 1:07 pm
Something like this might have been posted before, so I'm sorry if I'm repeating an idea.
In GoF, Sirius says: "...and he(Snape) was part of a gang of Slytherins who nearly all turned out to be Death Eaters.(...)The Lestranges-they're a married couple-they're in Azkaban.Avery-(...)", which seems as though the Lestranges(Bellatrix and Rodolphus, Rabastan-?) we're at the same time at Hogwarts as Snape(and, of course James, Sirius, Lily etc.), with maximum 6 years between them.
In HBP, during the Horcrux memory, Slugorn says: "Lestrange, I want your essay by tomorrow or it's detention.Same goes for you Avery."
Firstly, which Lestrange is he talking about? Rodolphus or Rabastan?
And secondly, Avery is mentioned as being nearly the same age as Tom Marvolo Riddle/Voldemort, but Tom is around 20 years older then Snape. But Sirius sayd that Snape was, at Hogwarts, in the the same gang as Avery.
My question is: With whom was Avery during school, Snape or Voldemort, because they belong to different generations, and there are around 20 years between them.
Very weird...
wynnleaf - Apr 18, 2006 12:09 pm (#1827 of 2969)
I think maybe some of you mistook my meaning. I didn't mean that he wasn't being mean to Hermione. And yes, I realize the comment was made about her teeth being really long -- I mean I picture them like tusks.
But I don't necessarily think he was being any more mean -- for him, that is -- than if it had been one of those long nail growing hexes from HBP that Hermione had been hit with.
I don't necessarily think he targeted that comment to her because he intended to hurt her in a point of vulnerability. I think he'd have said it regardless what the hex had been. But for us readers, it seems especially cruel, because we know Hermione was very vulnerable about her teeth. So for her, the long teeth hex was worse than, say, a long fingernail hex.
I only brought it up to say that once again, Snape seems even more cruel because he made the comment about a hex that we readers know affected an area where Hermione was really vulnerable. If he'd made the same comment about a long-nail hex, we readers wouldn't see it as so over-the-top cruel -- just generally low-grade mean. But for the Snape character, who doesn't know Hermione's vulnerabilities, either situation would be the same as regards degree of intent toward cruelty.
Hey, I'm not trying to say it wasn't a mean remark. What I'm trying to say is that it was very likely not meant to be particularly cruel. And, yes, I agree with your Soul Search. When one uses put-down humor (or not as humor, but a random low-grade insult), it can end up being a lot more harmful than one might expect.
Gina R Snape - Apr 18, 2006 12:44 pm (#1828 of 2969)
Edited Apr 18, 2006 2:37 pm
Linedhel, Avery is this name that keeps popping up in interesting places and a part of me wonder if he isn't a traitor of Voldemort's. I would be very interested to know the time line for the DEs, who were contemporaries, etc. It is, of course, entirely plausible that Voldemort's contemporaries had children who became DEs. Avery may be one of them.
And, I think it would be a very good thing to be a witness for the defense of my darling Severus.
Dobby Socks - Apr 18, 2006 3:11 pm (#1829 of 2969)
wynnleaf,
I actually appreciated your post. I liked your points about Snape’s socioeconomic status which must have afforded him much less opportunity for quality dental care than Hermione. And, besides, I think he would’ve made some kind of snide comment no matter what the hex had been.
On the other hand, young teenage girls as a group tend to be insecure when it comes to anything about their appearance. I find it hard to believe he wouldn’t be aware of that. I wouldn’t think he’d have to know anything about Hermione’s parents’ professions or her particular insecurity about her teeth. Pre Yule Ball, she’s not described as one of the more attractive girls, she’s particularly insecure about her hair and her teeth, she’s muggle born, and she possibly makes up for it by trying to excel academically. Hmmmmm… Anyway, I would think he’d have to know that insulting her appearance would be particularly mean simply because his target is a young teenaged girl not known for her beauty.
Incidentally, I know he doesn’t seem to give Ron a hard time as often as he picks on Harry, Neville, and Hermione. Has he ever made any remarks about Ron being poor (like the Malfoys seem to do to the Weasleys at every opportunity)? I’ve really got to get started on those rereads one of these days.
rambkowalczyk - Apr 18, 2006 4:59 pm (#1830 of 2969)
Wynnleaf,
I too appreciate the thought you put into the article about Snape insulting Hermione's teeth. Try as I might there was no way I could look at that line and not see it as petty and mean. But at least your essay mitigates some of the nastiness.
Magic Words - Apr 18, 2006 5:28 pm (#1831 of 2969)
Dobby Socks, I think you're right that Ron really isn't targeted by Snape the way Harry, Hermione, and Neville are. He just gets the same general treatment as the other Gryffindors. I guess Snape simply has no reason to single him out. We know Snape started off hating Harry for his resemblance to James, and things just went downhill from there. With Hermione, I agree that the tooth remark was over the top, but she did call attention to herself in class a lot, and Snape seems to hate know-it-alls in general. So while befriending Harry certainly didn't help her case, it may not have been the deciding factor in Snape's opinion of her. I think it's interesting that his third target is Neville. I believe this may be because of the prophecy. Snape probably knows that it came down to Neville or Harry, and Voldemort chose to go after Harry first. If we assume that telling Voldemort the prophecy, and the resultant murders, are really the greatest regret of Snape's life, he could hate Neville for surviving where Harry's parents didn't.
Mrs Brisbee - Apr 18, 2006 5:36 pm (#1832 of 2969)
Edited Apr 18, 2006 6:36 pm
Snape does target Ron during DADA in HBP: "I would expect nothing more sophisticated from you, Ronald Weasley, the boy so solid he cannot Apparate half an inch across a room." (HBP, Ch 21, "The Unknowable Room")
That's a personal attack on Ron that had no place in the DADA classroom.
wynnleaf - Apr 18, 2006 7:09 pm (#1833 of 2969)
Edited Apr 18, 2006 8:09 pm
Try as I might there was no way I could look at that line and not see it as petty and mean.
Thanks to everyone who at least felt there was some value in a bit different perspective on the teeth comment.
I must say, I can't quite understand how my comments came across like I didn't think the comment was petty and mean. I did think it was petty and mean, but simply not over-the-top mean, and probably without a specific intent to hit Hermione at her point of vulnerability. I brought up this particular incident primarily because I've seen it used so often as Big Evidence of a particularly humiliating remark.
It is interesting some of the things that Snape appears to never use against students. He never uses the issue of being poor or the blood purity issue. These are used often by Draco Malfoy, but never by Severus. And with Neville, Severus never ever comments on his parents. Yet if Neville's grandmother is to be believed, there's a noticeable difference in the ability of Frank and Alice, and the apparent (on the surface) ability of Neville. His grandmother seems to compare him negatively to his parents regularly. But Snape, who must have known the Longbottoms, never does this.
Soul Search - Apr 18, 2006 7:37 pm (#1834 of 2969)
I have always thought Snape goaded Neville only for his poor potions work; never for anything personal. It is, of course, a vicious cycle: Neville messes up a potions lesson, Snape torments him about it, so Neville does worse next time.
I thought it particularly despicable that what Neville feared the most was Snape, a teacher (PoA.)
haymoni - Apr 19, 2006 5:04 am (#1835 of 2969)
Ron has sense enough to lay low in Snape's class. He knew he was at a disadvantage as a Gryffindor from day one.
journeymom - Apr 19, 2006 8:17 am (#1836 of 2969)
Yeah, and if Snape took all the way until HBP to lay one on Ron personally then Ron fared pretty well.
Dobby Socks - Apr 19, 2006 8:51 am (#1837 of 2969)
Magic Words, I’ve had that same feeling about Neville – that Snape picks on him so much because he’s one of the prophecy babies. And the reason you give makes sense. It makes more sense when combined with the Lily/Snape theory (in whatever form.) Not that I’m sold on any one particular theory about DD’s trust in Snape yet.
Someone suggested earlier that it might be Snape’s method of teaching to constantly belittle Neville. But it’s clear fairly early on that, if that’s a method, it’s not working.
Besides being “an insufferable know it all” and a close friend of Harry’s, Hermione constantly helps Neville. Which could be an added reason why he often singles her out. Unless two people are partnered by the teacher to work on a project, this really isn’t acceptable behavior in any classroom.
Wynnleaf: “ It is interesting some of the things that Snape appears to never use against students. He never uses the issue of being poor or the blood purity issue. These are used often by Draco Malfoy, but never by Severus.” Thanks wynnleaf, I didn’t think so, but there have been so many scenes of Snape’s classroom in the series I thought I might be forgetting something. I wonder if this goes to Snape’s credit as clearly non-DE behavior, or if it’s based on steering clear of issues that he felt insecure about during his school years (or both.)
Mrs. Brisbee, yes, there is that encounter, but, although Ron was a bit fixated on his inability to apparate at the moment, I highly doubt Snape’s comment had any lasting effect on him. One of the things I really enjoyed about the DADA passages in HBP was that the kids were finally standing up to Snape. Despite the very few views we had into this class, the barbs hurled back and forth (from both sides) were hilarious. I found Snape’s jab quite funny, as I did Ron’s which immediately preceded it.
Weeny Owl - Apr 19, 2006 9:39 am (#1838 of 2969)
I always thought the Lestrange in Slughorn's memory was the father of Rabastan and Rodolphus.
There's more than twenty years between Snape and Voldemort. Voldemort graduated around 1945, so he would have been born around 1926, give or take a couple of years. Snape was born about 1960. Voldemort is 30-35 yeras older than Snape, so chances are the Lestrange brothers are the sons of a Voldemort contemporary and not the ones in the Slughorn memory.
We know little about the Lestranges and their relationship with Snape, but we do know that there's a strong rivalry between Bella and Snape. As for me, if it ever comes down to a duel between her and Snape, I'll vote for Snape winning.
Choices - Apr 19, 2006 11:17 am (#1839 of 2969)
I think the fact that Snape never mentions economic status or the blood purity issue is because it hits too close to home for him. Indications are that he was from a relatively poor family and his father was a Muggle, so he doesn't dare make remarks to a student concerning those issues.
der 905 - Apr 20, 2006 8:57 am (#1840 of 2969)
It could also be that he isn't ashamed of his economic and blood status, but he won't brag about it either. I know my family was in Ron's economic status when we were growing up and we weren't ashamed of it and it certainly didn't bother us. We believe growing up like that made us better people because we weren't spoiled brats(a-la Draco). We don't tell everyone how we grew up, but we wouldn't make fun of others in that situation either, since we don't see it as a bad thing. This could be Snape's situation as well, he doesn't wear his situation on his sleeve but doesn't feel it was all that bad either.
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wynnleaf - Apr 20, 2006 11:22 am (#1841 of 2969)
der905, I agree. Further, as regards the blood purity issue, my guess would be that Severus is not ashamed of it, otherwise he'd never have devised the "Half Blood Prince" title, which proclaims his half-blood status. He therefore wouldn't make cruel remarks regarding blood purity not because it was a sensitive issue from his own past, but because he would not see it as something to be ashamed of.
Snape does use aspects of intelligence (or lack thereof) to insult people about. And that would make sense, because he'd see being "thick" or being a "dunderhead" or being a "know it all" as something insulting -- at least mildly so. Arrogance seems to him to be far worse, which is interesting since Draco is far more a picture of arrogance than Harry. Although we don't know about James; he may have been pretty arrogant, after all.
Magic Words - Apr 20, 2006 11:36 am (#1842 of 2969)
It seems to me that a Slytherin calling himself the Half-Blood Prince is asking to be a social outcast. I can see the Sorting Hat bending the rules on the blood purity issue, and I can also see him not being ashamed of his heritage, but it seems odd that he would openly brag about it. I also have trouble imagining how the "Half-Blood Prince" could ever subscribe to a blood-purity agenda.
haymoni - Apr 20, 2006 11:51 am (#1843 of 2969)
I have no canon base for this, but I thought that Snape called HIMSELF the Half-Blood Prince.
I never thought it was something that other people called him.
Magic Words - Apr 20, 2006 12:01 pm (#1844 of 2969)
That's what I think too, haymoni. That's my point: during his Hogwarts years (at least up until sixth year, I'm assuming, because the Potions book was NEWT-level) Snape was proud enough of being a half-blood that he wanted the world to know it. A scant what, two years later at the most, he has started persecuting other half-bloods. What happened?
Soul Search - Apr 20, 2006 12:02 pm (#1845 of 2969)
haymoni, I think you are right. If Lupin had never heard of the Half-Blood Prince, then it couldn't have been something Snape revealed to many. Seems like canon enough.
haymoni - Apr 20, 2006 12:05 pm (#1846 of 2969)
There seems to be a difference between between Half-bloods and Muggle-borns.
I don't see Draco attacking Seamus left & right, but he takes every opportunity to insult Hermione.
I think if you are actually descended from a wizard, all is well.
However, if you suddenly spring forth all magical without any direct wizard blood, there is a problem.
Snape was a wizard who came from a witch. Just like Voldy. If anything, it could be argued that the "stronger wizarding bloodline" won out over the "weaker Muggle bloodline".
I don't think the DEs have a problem with Half-Bloods. It is Muggles, Muggle-borns and Muggle-Lovers that need to worry.
I've been wrong before, though!
Magic Words - Apr 20, 2006 12:31 pm (#1847 of 2969)
Aren't half-bloods and Muggle-borns both referred to as "Mudbloods?" And I can't remember now... did the basilisk in CoS only target Muggle-borns? I guess it's possible that there's a distinction between half-bloods who are also Muggle-lovers and those who reject their Muggle lineage. Still, I have trouble hearing "Half-Blood" as a nickname without imagining someone who embraces both halves. He's obviously not a Muggle, so the only way you can tell he isn't pure-blood is because his nickname draws attention to his Muggle side.
wynnleaf - Apr 20, 2006 4:27 pm (#1848 of 2969)
I've used the "wynn" part of my sig for many years, as it's an ancestor's name and I guess I have a certain pride in it, but I never used it publically until I started using it on the internet. May point is simply that generally, even a private "title" that one creates for oneself is usually something one is happy with, or proud of, even if it's not shared with friends.
Severus apparently didn't share the title around. If he had any close friends, they may have known, but obviously Lupin had never heard the title. Still, creating the title at all seems to indicate Severus was not ashamed of his mixed parentage, even if only to the extent of saying "I may be a half-blood, but I'm a prince of a half-blood," or something like that.
As regards Mudblood, etc., my understanding is that Mudblood simply means "dirty blood" and would apply to anyone of mixed parentage or Muggle parentage. However, it seems to be mostly used on those with just Muggle parentage. Obviously, Slytherin house has had other mixed blood students, since LV was sorted into that house. When Harry tells Bellatrix that LV is a half-blood, she seems to take that as something of an insult. On the other hand, Bellatrix comments on being the "first of their kind" to go to the area around Spinners End, which sounds like she meant "pure blooded" and therefore knew Snape was half-blood.
It seems to me that for those interested in blood purity, half-blood isn't great, and not nearly as socially acceptable as pureblood, but at least not so bad as being Muggleborn. Draco, for instance, doesn't seem to look down on Snape, yet he likely knows Snape's half-blood status (just a guess since Lucius certainly knows).
The Gryffindor students, however, seem to assume that all Slytherins are "into" blood purity and are probably all pureblood.
winlia - Apr 20, 2006 7:36 pm (#1849 of 2969)
Because Severus grew up in a rough neighborhood, he's probably used to a higher threshold for insensitive remarks. I suspect he knows that the teeth remark is nasty but figures that anyone worth their salt won't be devestated by it. I think, too, that Herminone is tough enough mentally to consider the source.
Snape's treatment of Neville is a little more disturbing. It doesn't seem that he bears any real ill will toward Neville, and he may be frustrated that Neville doesn't catch on more quickly, but he seems in danger of doing some serious harm. (I'll bet that it won't pan out that way, though. I think Neville will really shine in #7, and that Snape may well show some confidence in him while they're fighting the DE's.)
Snape is at stage in his life where he's concluded that it's better to be the hunter than the prey, but he hasn't figured out that there are other ways of dealing with people. I think he will move in that direction in book 7.
I know that this isn't the place for religion or politics, but it seems glaringly obvious that JKR had Hitler in mind when she developed LV and the whole mudblood idea. As I'm sure most of you know, one of Hitler's parents was Jewish.
Weeny Owl - Apr 21, 2006 6:21 am (#1850 of 2969)
No, one of Hitler's parents wasn't Jewish. It's been rumored, but not completely proven, that one of his grandfathers was Jewish.
I wondered if the Half-Blood Prince title was more because he may have been picked on for not being a pureblood, and he gave himself that title as a way of telling himself he was as good as they were, if not better.
HungarianHorntail11 - Apr 21, 2006 6:31 am (#1851 of 2969)
My feeling was that his "name" was of more of an invidious move than anything else. Taking into account his snide nature, this would almost beckon anyone to challenge such a self-imposed (if indeed it was self imposed) title. And he certainly doesn't shy away from a challenge.
Solitaire - Apr 21, 2006 10:17 am (#1852 of 2969)
Edited Apr 21, 2006 11:18 am
The whole "blood purity" issues and designations in the HP books smack strongly of terms used in Nazi Germany to refer to people of Jewish ancestry. From the Shoah Resource Center, I found the following information:
Jews were defined as people with at least three full Jewish grandparents. A Mischling of the first degree, or half-Jew, was a person with two Jewish grandparents who did not belong to the Jewish religion or who was not married to a Jew as of September 15, 1935. A Mischling of the second degree, or quarter-Jew, was someone with one Jewish grandparent or an Aryan married to a Jew. ...
... The Mischlinge issue was very important to Adolf Hitler. The policy in Germany was to assimilate second degree Mischlinge into the Aryan nation, while first degree Mischlinge were to be considered like Jews.
These terms sound a lot like the Half-Blood and Mudblood terms, to me. I think Jo is pointing out how devisive and destructive--not to mention stupid, without merit, and just plain evil--such designations are. JM2K, of course ...
Solitaire
virginiaelizabeth - Apr 21, 2006 10:24 am (#1853 of 2969)
Edited Apr 21, 2006 11:25 am
These terms sound a lot like the Half-Blood and Mudblood terms, to me. I think Jo is pointing out how devisive and destructive--not to mention stupid, without merit, and just plain evil--such designations are. JM2K, of course ...
Solitaire
I agree, it does sound a lot like half-blood and mudblood. They have no purpose other than to hurt someone, and I think JKR is also trying to point out that as mean and pointless as these words are, they are still hurtful, and sadly this kind of prejudice exist in the world today. You can't escape it.
Ann - Apr 21, 2006 10:47 am (#1854 of 2969)
Edited Apr 21, 2006 11:53 am
I've just read through the last hundred or so posts (how did I get so behind?), and it strikes me that one way of understanding Snape is to assume that what he attacks most viciously in his students are things that he has most viciously rejected in himself. He has (imperfectly, of course) rid himself of what he sees as his youthful flaws, but such rejections of the self have a tendency to turn around and bite one in the ass. In Snape's case, those bites occur in the form of slippages in his mask and attacks on others. So looking at what he attacks in others can give us interesting clues to the "inner Snape." What does he attack?
First, he seems to resent clumsiness. Adult Snape is invariably described by Rowling as moving with impressive grace and fluidity, the billowing robes, the graceful hands, the subtle flicks of the wand. This is a major change from the gawky adolescent we see in the Pensieve. It may not be Neville's incompetence that really annoys Snape, but his tendency to mess things up through nervous clumsiness. I suspect Snape was the same way himself. (He seems a bit negative about Tonks, as well, in HBP.)
Even more violently, however, he reacts against what he sees as excess emotionalism, most especially in Harry. There's been way too little attention paid, in discussions of the Marauders' relationship with Snape, to the nickname "Snivellus." They wouldn't have used it so much if it weren't apt, and it wouldn't have been apt if he hadn't, as a younger student, cried a lot. Kids are cruel, and such nicknames, nasty though they are, aren't uncommon, but the fact that James is still using it at 15 or 16 and Sirius at 36 or 37 doesn't speak well for either of them. I suspect that this nickname played a major role in Snape's learning to be angry rather than sad, and to hate rather than love--his first steps toward Death-Eater-hood.
He is vicious to Hermione most particularly because of her insecure desire to please her teachers by showing off. Just like Hermione, he did far more than was required as a student. (You can see that in the Pensieve, when he wrote reams and reams on each DADA question.) And he probably learned the hard way that everyone hates a know-it-all.
And he is nasty to her (though slightly less so, I think) about her personal appearance. As has been pointed out, Snape's teeth are far more unattractive than Hermione's are, but he may be sensitive about them. As an adult, he seems to take a rather superficial attitude towards personal grooming, with his impressive black robes. Inside, however, the adult Snape and the adolescent Snape aren't so different (gray nightshirt vs. gray underwear).
So the young Snape, we can deduce, was a physically awkward, over-emotional, insecure, show-off, with grooming issues. Sounds likely enough, doesn't it?
journeymom - Apr 21, 2006 1:51 pm (#1855 of 2969)
Edited Apr 21, 2006 2:52 pm
Ann, that's succinct and well thought out. My subconscious has been dancing around that same conclusion but I couldn't put it into words. I was going to compare Hermione to Snape for this same reason (explaining his hostility) but wondered if I've read too much Granger/Snape fan fiction.
But your explanation makes perfect sense. I like it.
Solitaire - Apr 21, 2006 2:40 pm (#1856 of 2969)
Edited Apr 21, 2006 3:41 pm
the nickname "Snivellus." They wouldn't have used it so much if it weren't apt, and it wouldn't have been apt if he hadn't, as a younger student, cried a lot.
Interesting, Ann. I've often wondered if Sirius and Snape knew each other before both arrived at Hogwarts. Perhaps Sirius knew Snape as a small child who cried a lot. Remember the vision in the Pensieve of the child cowering in the corner as a man yelled at a woman? Could the child have been Snape and the man one of his mother's brothers or uncles ... or her father? Could the Prince family have been related somehow to the Noble and Most Ancient House of Black--bringing Snape into contact with the Black family when Sirius and Snape were small children? Given Sirius's comment that his parents agreed with the whole pure-blood ideas, one can imagine how the Black family might have taken every opportunity to berate and excoriate Snape's mother whenever she came to any family gathering (if she did bother to come after her marriage). Just wondering ...
Solitaire
Gina R Snape - Apr 21, 2006 5:19 pm (#1857 of 2969)
I have always thought Snape knew from personal experience that nobody likes an insufferable know-it-all, and it probably kills him that Hermione has been able to make and keep friends better than he ever did. I also absolutely think he looks at the kids and worries that they are to be the ones to rid the world of Voldemort, and in his estimation they are nowhere near ready nor capable. I think he worries about this a great deal. I think he worries that all his efforts are wasted on a load of talentless hacks. And he doesn't have the patience to wait for them to mature and allow their wizarding skills to nurture.
winlia - Apr 21, 2006 5:48 pm (#1858 of 2969)
Forgive my typing -- I had Epi-Lasik done in one eye this morning.
I see the teenage Snape as emotionally stunted, but not weak. He is shown crying as a child, but that wouldn't be unusual in an abusive home and probably doesn't indicate excessive weakness. He's been portrayed as a talented student, and he's certainly had success as an adult, considering that he's head of house.
Social interaction seems to be where Severus has issues, and I've certainly known kind-hearted people who have a hard time fitting in, even as adults. Often they give offense where none is intended. I've encounter lots of people in the corporate world. Some are amazingly poised and others really struggle, even though they've had plenty of practice at small talk.
Also. as an adult, Severus ought to be able to address his hygiene issues. Certainly, he could get his teeth fixed. I think he doesn't realize that he should.
winlia - Apr 21, 2006 6:04 pm (#1859 of 2969)
Gina I think you're dead on. You obviously know your husband well.
Parents, and to a lesser extent teachers, have the responsibility of preparing their children for adulthood. Somewhere along the line, kids need to come to grips with the harsh realities of life; they world can be very scary even without LV. The more enlightened of us try to lead by examples as well as use literature, movies, and real life events to foster discussion that make them less naive. (Not to mention counceling them in their interactions with their friends.) I think Severus understands that kids need to move toward adulthood; he just lacks finese in the execution. I think that aim is part of why he is sometimes hard on the kids; he wants to toughen them up. I think he's also somewhat jealous of their friendship and popularity, and lashes out a bit.
Saracene - Apr 21, 2006 6:16 pm (#1860 of 2969)
Regarding Snape's nickname, I've seen the suggestion that he was called "Snivellus" because he may have cried a lot when he was younger, but I think it's just as likely that James and Sirius simply wanted to put an insulting spin on his real name.
I've also seen theories on whether there was more to why Sirius hated Snape so much, whether he knew Snape from somewhere else and whether his animosity had something to do with Sirius' brother. While I think that these theories are interesting, I don't quite see why, if that was true, none of that was brought into the light while Sirius was still around. Why leave it to the last book for these particular revelations, after Sirius himself has died?
Re: "Mudbloods" - I checked CoS and in it Hagrid says specifically that "mudblood" is an especially foul term for someone who is muggle-born, with non-magical parents. So it looks like this term is exclusive and someone who is a half-blood would not be referred as a "mudblood". In OotP Bellatrix calls Harry "a filthy half-blood" - but not a "mudblood".
Re: infamous "I see no difference" comment, I can't say it occured to me to see Hermione's distress as closely connected with the fact that her parents were dentists, etc. I'd expect her to be just as hurt if, for instance, Malfoy's hex deformed her nose or eyebrows. And I perhaps feel more protective towards Hermione than any of the boys so that remark of Snape's really made me hate him.
Gina R Snape - Apr 21, 2006 7:04 pm (#1861 of 2969)
Thanks winlia.
Saracene, I have to admit I often forget Hermione's parents are dentists. But I never forget they are muggles. I wonder if other people do too.
As for the Snape/Black relations, you raise a really good point. Why bring it up in the last book and not earlier? Well, there might be a very good reason for it. How often do we read things later on that could have come up sooner but didn't because of plot constraints? I think it's fun to wonder if those two knew each other as younger children, but I cannot think of how theire being related might lend itself to the story. I guess we'll just have to wait!
And I'm still disappointed that nobody in the fandom came up with Snivellus before OOP came out!
winlia - Apr 21, 2006 8:09 pm (#1862 of 2969)
Weeny Owl, A little research quickly showed me that you are correct in stating that it is highly unlikely that Hitler came from Jewish ancestry. (I would have sworn that was true.) Obviously, I'm behind the times. I had just adjusted to the Brontosaurus being called by another name (Apatosaurus, is it?), and now this.
Weeny Owl - Apr 22, 2006 12:06 am (#1863 of 2969)
I can relate to your difficulty over the Brontosaurus, winlia.
I knew about the Hitler thing only because I'm an avid devotee of The History Channel.
Still, Voldemort's history aside, Snape obviously had a Muggle parent, and with Bella's rather obnoxious take on blood, even if he hung out with her and her cronies in school, she could still have given him a hard time later.
wynnleaf - Apr 22, 2006 6:34 am (#1864 of 2969)
Edited Apr 22, 2006 7:36 am
Ann,
I thought your comments were very well thought out and supported well by canon. I had not thought about adolescent Severus writing so much for the exam in the pensieve as being like Hermione, but I think you're quite correct.
The Snivellus name does seem likely to come from having been a kid who at some point cried easily. But usually (as I watch my kids growing up and the interactions among their friends), those kinds of names are set aside as kids get into their mid teens. Yet Sirius and James (or is it just Sirius?) continue to be using that name even at the end of 5th year, and Sirius uses it as an adult. I know Sirius had a sort of "arrested development" from the time he went into Azkaban and onward, but really, he should have quit using petty childhood taunts before the "Snape's worst memory" scene, and certainly before he got put in Azkaban.
Anyway, I think you're spot on that Snape is particularly critical of his students in areas that are of particular importance to him and that in many cases, that means things that have been his own weaknesses and that he works to overcome. Although when he's critical of people's thinking skills, I don't necessarily think he was ever "lacking" in that area. Of course, he could also be aware of times when he made mistakes because he should have have been thinking more clearly, but wasn't.
Certainly, when Snape criticizes Harry for his emotions, we know that Snape can really get overly emotional on occasion. His loss of control over Sirius' escape and Harry looking in his pensieve are the two primary examples. I wouldn't include his anger in Flight of the Prince, as that's entirely understandable. Well, much of his anger over Sirius' escape and Harry getting in the pensieve is also understandable, it's just that Snape's fury overwhelms him at the time. Of course, we know that he must be able to have a great deal of control over his emotions during those times he's around LV.
Ann - Apr 22, 2006 7:23 am (#1865 of 2969)
"He must be able to have a great deal of control over his emotions during those times he's around LV" unless he loyally shows LV his real emotions, and it's Dumbledore he's been fooling!
Of course, I don't believe that for a moment. I think you're right--Snape was never stupid. But I think he was physically clumsy as a child and has had to work to overcome that. And clumsiness makes kids nervous, and it puts them at a disadvantage in many of the activities that are important to them (particularly boys--think the bucking broom in his memory). I suspect he was not very good at the practical aspects of Potions, initially, and possibly also a bit inept at Charms and Transfiguration, which must require good coordination to do the wand movements. So he tried to make up for it by memorizing the textbooks. I bet he was really, really good at Gobstones, however. (Why do we never see anyone playing them? Is this a clue, do you think? Was there a reason JKR didn't make Eileen Prince a champion at, say, chess or Exploding Snap?)
journeymom - Apr 22, 2006 1:57 pm (#1866 of 2969)
" Harry was tempted to buy a solid gold set in Diagon Alley (PA4)" -Lexicon.
What if he had? What would Snape think about Harry playing Gob Stones? Maybe nothing. Not everything is significant.
TheSaint - Apr 22, 2006 2:49 pm (#1867 of 2969)
I like the thought of Snape as a over-emotional child who had to learn to reign them in (maybe with the help of a teacher or a head master). Someone taught him to control his emotions, as he preaches to Harry every time they meet. Someone taught him to be an Legilmensy and Occulmensy (sp)...wonder who else knows them? Seems like this relationship began long before the defection from the Death Eaters.
This has probably been mentioned before ..but I just caught it (how sad). In Spinner's End - Snape says..."You asked where I was when the Dark Lord fell. I was where he had ordered me to be, at Hogwarts school of Witchcraft and Wizardry, BECAUSE HE WISHED ME TO SPY ON ALBUS DUMBLEDORE." (emphasis mine)
Now he makes the Unbreakable Vow with Narcissca he says..."You see, in the unlikely event that Draco succeeds, I shall remain at Hogwarts a little longer, fulfilling my useful role as spy."
Now, maybe I am wrong, but if draco succeeds and kills Dumbledore, what would his useful role be? DD is dead.
Gina R Snape - Apr 22, 2006 2:59 pm (#1868 of 2969)
He could remain to spy on the Order and to recruit new DEs.
K Stahl - Apr 22, 2006 3:47 pm (#1869 of 2969)
Harry is now and always has been the primary target. Dumbledore was an impediment.
Choices - Apr 22, 2006 5:31 pm (#1870 of 2969)
Harry is definitely the prime target, but if Harry is not at Hogwarts (he stated he would not be **), then what would keep Snape occupied there? There would be no Dumbledore or Harry to spy on and the DADA position would probably not be his any longer (if there is indeed a curse on it). Would he just go back to teaching potions - would Slughorn give it up? Questions, questions!!!
*Even though Harry claimed he would not be at Hogwarts for 7th year, I really think he will be there either as a student or for other reasons.
TheSaint - Apr 22, 2006 6:07 pm (#1871 of 2969)
But the directive is...spy on Albus Dumbledore. If he knows Dumbledore will be dead should draco succeed, why would he need to remain?
Die Zimtzicke - Apr 22, 2006 7:12 pm (#1872 of 2969)
I don't think Harry will be back at Hogwarts as a full-time student.
I think he will have to face Snape someplace, and that he will be at Hogwarts at some point, but those two things aren't going to be together.
If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. We'll see.
wynnleaf - Apr 22, 2006 7:56 pm (#1873 of 2969)
TheSaint,
The way I read the Spinners End chapter, I don't think Severus actually knew what Draco's task was when he made that comment. But I never really noticed that comment before. To me, it supports the notion that Snape didn't know that Draco's mission was to kill DD, therefore his comment about staying on at Hogwarts to spy made sense to him at the time. I've always thought that Severus was basically "fishing" for information in his discussion with Bella and Cissy. Although that comment of his could possibly have meant other things than just spying on DD, it does seem to mean spying on DD, since that's what Snape was only just talking about. If he meant staying at Hogwarts to spy on DD, then he didn't know what Draco's task was. In that case, he went into the Vow blind which further supports the notion that he's loyal to DD and was simply trying to get information, hoping the vow was just to keep Draco safe.
virginiaelizabeth - Apr 22, 2006 8:15 pm (#1874 of 2969)
I also don't think that Snape really knew what the task Draco was supposed to do actually was. It isn't clearly stated in the vow what Snape is to do. It just says to complete Draco's task if he cannot, but if Snape thought that the task was something other than to kill DD, say, he thought it was to get the DE's inside the castle, then there would be no harm done. I agree with you wynnleaf, I think Snape just wanted information.
HungarianHorntail11 - Apr 22, 2006 8:32 pm (#1875 of 2969)
I agree, wynnleaf, I was thinking the same thing as I played "catch up" on this thread.
I wonder, though, if the task for Draco was ordered by Big V himself, didn't Snape underestimate him? That does not jive with what we know about Snape. . .not to me anyway.
TheSaint - Apr 22, 2006 8:53 pm (#1876 of 2969)
As I re-read the chapter, I was thinking Snape knew just what he was doing, until I go to thos two lines. Then I was not so sure, as they completely conflict each other in retrospect.
Dobby Socks - Apr 22, 2006 10:26 pm (#1877 of 2969)
Edited Apr 23, 2006 12:53 am
If Voldemort thought it would be worthwhile to spy on the Order with DD eliminated (they are, after all, the Order of the Phoenix, albeit temporarily leaderless, but still the most organized resistance group we’ve seen) I can see how LV might still value Snape’s role at Hogwarts, however diminshed. Or, he might rather assign him to some other significant yet rather menial task like torturing the prophecy out of Trelawney.
But, in reality, it’s all a moot point now. DD and Snape are gone from Hogwarts.
Hi Ann: I agree with almost everything you said: good summary response to what must have been several hundred posts. However, out of curiousity I wonder how this fits… “I suspect he was not very good at the practical aspects of Potions”… This seems to me to be one of his natural strengths. Do you view the precision in potion measurements as a skill that his alleged clumsiness would interfere with? In a parallel with Neville for instance? Just curious on that point in particular.
I keep going back and forth on this one, but in “Spinner’s End,” I think that while fiddling with the curtain, Snape had enough time to assess the possibilities of what Draco’s task might be. There are only so many possibilities, and since killing Harry isn’t one (as LV wants Harry for himself), I think Snape probably reached the right conclusion. However, I also think Narcissa’s addition of the third part of the vow caught him off guard. I think he correctly deduced what it was, but didn’t expect Narcissa to throw it quite so specifically into the vow itself. It was a gamble. Thus the hand flinch.
I think I may have to add Snape and Harry playing gobstones to my “completely ludicrous requests” list for book 7. Are gobstones the size of “neverending gobstoppers” or more like Bocci balls? I can just see this now. Oh, fun!
~Camille
Laura W - Apr 23, 2006 2:23 am (#1878 of 2969)
Are we absolutely 100 per cent certain that the task Voldemort gave to Draco was to kill DD? Is there any chance that it could have been something else?
Narcissa says, "Then I am right, he has chosen Draco in revenge! He does not mean him to succeed, he wants him to be killed trying!" and later on the same page, "In other words, it doesn't matter to him if Draco is killed!"
Come on, I know Voldemort is mad at Lucius but I think that would take second place to his wanting to get Dumbledore out of the way. The idea of him recruiting a 16-year-old wizard (and one who has proven himself to be neither particularly brave nor talented) to do this most difficult deed -- DD being the most powerful wizard, and all that -- just rings untrue to me. Regardless of the revenge Voldemert wants to exact on Lucius (and which I am sure he will) for blowing the prophecy job.
Also, call me naive, but I believed that Snape *did* know what the plan was when I read - and reread - Spinner's End. He convinced *me*! You know, with his comments like, "If Draco succeeds he will be honoured above all others." and "He intends me to do it in the end, I think. But he is determined that Draco should try first."
I do believe, however, that Cissy's third part of the Unbreakable Vow caught Severus by surprise. (To refuse at that point would, however, have tipped his hand, spy-wise, so he agreed.)
I realize that I might be all wet in all that I have written here, but this whole issue really does have as many twists and turns as a certain maze in GoF.
Laura
Saracene - Apr 23, 2006 4:29 am (#1879 of 2969)
For my own part, I believe that Snape didn't know anything about Voldemort's orders to Draco until the sisters' visit, but very possibly figured it all out during the course of the conversation. By the time Narcissa went gasping about how Snape could do it instead of Draco, I think Snape had a pretty clear idea of what Draco's mission was.
And I'm sure that he didn't anticipate Narcissa asking for an Unbreakable Vow and then springing that tricksy third clause on him mid-Vow.
As for Draco's mission itself, while I guess there is a chance that it might have been something else, I don't quite see the need for the whole thing to be more complicated than what it looks like. In the tower scene, Draco says that he's got a job to do; Dumbledore suggests that Draco gets on and does it, and then tells him that he's not a killer; he then tells Draco that he knew that Draco has been trying to kill him all year. The Death Eaters also clearly expect Draco to kill Dumbledore. I've seen a few theories on whether Draco's original mission was something different, but again, I just don't see the need for such twist and why it should be kept secret until the final book.
As for why Voldemort would put punishing Lucius as a top priority over getting Dumbledore out of the way... well I think that if killing Dumbledore was his top priority he'd order Snape to assassinate Dumbledore a long time ago. And probably even to do it in a way that would leave Snape himself looking blameless; surely Snape could pull that off.
Also, there's a fact that Voldemort supplied Draco with a back-up, and that Dumbledore himself admitted that he had thought breaking into Hogwarts impossible. Perhaps Voldemort did initially give Draco his mission as a cruel joke, but maybe when Draco came up with his clever cabinets plan Voldemort thought, hmm little twerp might actually be on to something,
Laura W - Apr 23, 2006 5:50 am (#1880 of 2969)
Re post #1846 by haymoni, especially
I don't think the DEs have a problem with Half-Bloods. It is Muggles, Muggle-borns and Muggle-Lovers that need to worry. I've been wrong before, though!
Based on the canon I just found, you are *not* wrong about that. HBP, chapter 12, p. 227 (Cdn edition):
Hermione says: "The Death Eaters can't all be pure-blood, there aren't enough pure-blood wizards left. I expect most of them are half-bloods pretending to be pure. It's only the Muggle-borns they hate, they'd be quite happy to let you and Ron join up."
And Ron replies: "There is no way they'd let me be a Death Eater! My whole family are blood traitors! That's as bad as Muggle-borns to Death Eaters!"
So your whole post (1846) seems to be accurate on all counts, haymoni.
Laura
journeymom - Apr 23, 2006 8:12 am (#1881 of 2969)
We're thinking of this as if Snape is either Voldemort's man or Dumbledore's man. What if he is neither, but turns out to ultimately be his own man?
Dd said Voldemort doesn't have friends. He said some claim to be his right hand man but they are lying or delusional or whatever, because Voldemort does not, in truth, have a confidant. This goes against what Snape said in Spinners End, about being Voldy's closest assistant. (He did say something like that, didn't he? I don't have the book with me.) I tend to believe Dd's assessment here, of course. So what of Snape's comment? Is he delusional? Or is he perhaps bluffing to Cissy and Bella? Though I figure it would be difficult to lie to Bella about that. At the end of OotP I got the impression that if anybody was 'close' to Voldemort it was Bella.
But she didn't call Snape on that comment. But if Snape is Voldemort's good graces, why was Pettigrew living with him at Spinners End?
So many questions!
virginiaelizabeth - Apr 23, 2006 11:14 am (#1882 of 2969)
I have always wondered why Pettigrew was staying with Snape. Is he there on LV's orders or on DD's orders. Just seems strange...why Snape? I doubt LV would care about where Pettigrew wnet, or what happened to him, he used him for what he needed. Does Snape have Pettigrew there on DD orders instead? can't think of a reason why he would, but still intresting none the less.
wynnleaf - Apr 23, 2006 12:03 pm (#1883 of 2969)
Edited Apr 23, 2006 1:04 pm
Having Pettigrew at Spinners End is interesting. Why does JKR put him there? So far, his being there didn't affect the plot at all. The only way Pettigrew being at Spinner's End affected HBP was that it made us readers ask "why's he there?" His being there doesn't give us strong clues about Snape's loyalties, other than to make us wonder if LV suspects Snape. So why did JKR want Pettigrew there? What's he doing for the plot? What's his presence do for the "mystery of Snape" that JKR wants to present to the readers? Hmm.
I suppose we'll find out more about Pettigrew in book 7. I'm expecting to see more of him relating to the characters, but not necessarily some big explanation for why he was at Spinners End at the summer between Harry's 5th and 6th year. So why did JKR want him in the scene?
TheSaint - Apr 23, 2006 12:06 pm (#1884 of 2969)
Possibly it was to show that no matter how much Pettigrew sacrificed, he is not with the Dark Lord. He has been sent off on some menial task, just to get rid of him. Voldemort does not like people.
winlia - Apr 23, 2006 12:15 pm (#1885 of 2969)
Edited Apr 23, 2006 1:26 pm
When I joined the Lexicon, the main question that I wanted to explore is why Severus agreed to the third part of that vow. Whether or not he knew what Draco's task was, whether or not the task was to kill DD, and whether or not Snape is loyal to DD, a much safer answer would have been something along the lines of, well that's up to LV.
Added to that, Snape is portrayed as a pretty cool customer in Spinner's End. His mastery of the situation seems to derail at the third part of the vow.
PS For that matter, why does Narcissa make the third request? Snape's killing of DD doesn't do much to help Draco.
I don't get it.
The One - Apr 23, 2006 12:31 pm (#1886 of 2969)
As for Petigrew at Snape's house, I think that only shows one thing: Everyone despise a betrayer, even his new friends.
frogface - Apr 23, 2006 1:09 pm (#1887 of 2969)
I doubt its only shows one thing, thats not very much like any author, least of all JKR. She'll have had a good reason for putting him there, probably more than one reason, and I suspect its probably to do with plot. I've often toyed with the idea that DD orchestrated events so that Pettigrew would be staying with Snape. How would Peter react, I wonder, if Snape made a nasty comment about James? Peter and Snape both play very similar roles in the story. They are both of the marauders generation, they both contributed to the deaths of James and Lily, they both have life debts to Harry, they are or once were spies, and they both betrayed (or appeared to) the Order. And JKR chose to pair them up for one of the opening chapters...veeeeery interesting methinks.
Soul Search - Apr 23, 2006 2:05 pm (#1888 of 2969)
Edited Apr 23, 2006 3:06 pm
I agree, frogface. Very interesting.
Something is up. Wormtail still needs retribution for betraying the Potters. And, he owes Harry some sort of life debt.
We also strongly suspect that Snape was particularly upset with James' and/or Lily's death. Voldemort may know this. Wormtail probably doesn't.
Add to that Wormtail laughing at Snape's discomfort imposed by James and Sirius to create a very tense situation.
My first thought was that Voldemort set this up for amusement and to get rid of Wormtail, at Snape's hand. But that wouldn't fit all the possibilities.
journeymom - Apr 23, 2006 2:30 pm (#1889 of 2969)
I wondered if Pettigrew was baby sitting Snape, though Snape was trying hard to make it look like the opposite was true.
Was Pettigrew at the battle at the Ministry?
Magic Words - Apr 23, 2006 2:38 pm (#1890 of 2969)
Replying to several posts:
Okay, I take back the comment about DE's persecuting half-bloods along with Muggle-borns.
I don't see why LV couldn't have been serious in expecting Draco to kill DD. Even he can't best DD in a fair fight, so if he wanted someone to kill DD it would have to be someone completely unexpected, who could get close to DD without putting him on guard. That pretty much leaves Draco and Snape. Maybe he did expect Snape to do it in the end, but since that would mean Snape having to flee Hogwarts, he wanted to exhaust all his other options first. After all, Draco nearly succeeded, so it wasn't such an unreasonable request.
Journeymom, if I'm remembering correctly, it is Narcissa, not Snape, who claims that Snape is closest to Voldemort. I think.
"How would Peter react, I wonder, if Snape made a nasty comment about James?" -frogface
Maybe it's Snape's job to goad Wormtail into repaying his life debt through reverse psychology.
If you ask me, both Peter's fate and Draco's will hinge directly on what Snape does in the next book.
der905, I agree. Further, as regards the blood purity issue, my guess would be that Severus is not ashamed of it, otherwise he'd never have devised the "Half Blood Prince" title, which proclaims his half-blood status. He therefore wouldn't make cruel remarks regarding blood purity not because it was a sensitive issue from his own past, but because he would not see it as something to be ashamed of.
Snape does use aspects of intelligence (or lack thereof) to insult people about. And that would make sense, because he'd see being "thick" or being a "dunderhead" or being a "know it all" as something insulting -- at least mildly so. Arrogance seems to him to be far worse, which is interesting since Draco is far more a picture of arrogance than Harry. Although we don't know about James; he may have been pretty arrogant, after all.
Magic Words - Apr 20, 2006 11:36 am (#1842 of 2969)
It seems to me that a Slytherin calling himself the Half-Blood Prince is asking to be a social outcast. I can see the Sorting Hat bending the rules on the blood purity issue, and I can also see him not being ashamed of his heritage, but it seems odd that he would openly brag about it. I also have trouble imagining how the "Half-Blood Prince" could ever subscribe to a blood-purity agenda.
haymoni - Apr 20, 2006 11:51 am (#1843 of 2969)
I have no canon base for this, but I thought that Snape called HIMSELF the Half-Blood Prince.
I never thought it was something that other people called him.
Magic Words - Apr 20, 2006 12:01 pm (#1844 of 2969)
That's what I think too, haymoni. That's my point: during his Hogwarts years (at least up until sixth year, I'm assuming, because the Potions book was NEWT-level) Snape was proud enough of being a half-blood that he wanted the world to know it. A scant what, two years later at the most, he has started persecuting other half-bloods. What happened?
Soul Search - Apr 20, 2006 12:02 pm (#1845 of 2969)
haymoni, I think you are right. If Lupin had never heard of the Half-Blood Prince, then it couldn't have been something Snape revealed to many. Seems like canon enough.
haymoni - Apr 20, 2006 12:05 pm (#1846 of 2969)
There seems to be a difference between between Half-bloods and Muggle-borns.
I don't see Draco attacking Seamus left & right, but he takes every opportunity to insult Hermione.
I think if you are actually descended from a wizard, all is well.
However, if you suddenly spring forth all magical without any direct wizard blood, there is a problem.
Snape was a wizard who came from a witch. Just like Voldy. If anything, it could be argued that the "stronger wizarding bloodline" won out over the "weaker Muggle bloodline".
I don't think the DEs have a problem with Half-Bloods. It is Muggles, Muggle-borns and Muggle-Lovers that need to worry.
I've been wrong before, though!
Magic Words - Apr 20, 2006 12:31 pm (#1847 of 2969)
Aren't half-bloods and Muggle-borns both referred to as "Mudbloods?" And I can't remember now... did the basilisk in CoS only target Muggle-borns? I guess it's possible that there's a distinction between half-bloods who are also Muggle-lovers and those who reject their Muggle lineage. Still, I have trouble hearing "Half-Blood" as a nickname without imagining someone who embraces both halves. He's obviously not a Muggle, so the only way you can tell he isn't pure-blood is because his nickname draws attention to his Muggle side.
wynnleaf - Apr 20, 2006 4:27 pm (#1848 of 2969)
I've used the "wynn" part of my sig for many years, as it's an ancestor's name and I guess I have a certain pride in it, but I never used it publically until I started using it on the internet. May point is simply that generally, even a private "title" that one creates for oneself is usually something one is happy with, or proud of, even if it's not shared with friends.
Severus apparently didn't share the title around. If he had any close friends, they may have known, but obviously Lupin had never heard the title. Still, creating the title at all seems to indicate Severus was not ashamed of his mixed parentage, even if only to the extent of saying "I may be a half-blood, but I'm a prince of a half-blood," or something like that.
As regards Mudblood, etc., my understanding is that Mudblood simply means "dirty blood" and would apply to anyone of mixed parentage or Muggle parentage. However, it seems to be mostly used on those with just Muggle parentage. Obviously, Slytherin house has had other mixed blood students, since LV was sorted into that house. When Harry tells Bellatrix that LV is a half-blood, she seems to take that as something of an insult. On the other hand, Bellatrix comments on being the "first of their kind" to go to the area around Spinners End, which sounds like she meant "pure blooded" and therefore knew Snape was half-blood.
It seems to me that for those interested in blood purity, half-blood isn't great, and not nearly as socially acceptable as pureblood, but at least not so bad as being Muggleborn. Draco, for instance, doesn't seem to look down on Snape, yet he likely knows Snape's half-blood status (just a guess since Lucius certainly knows).
The Gryffindor students, however, seem to assume that all Slytherins are "into" blood purity and are probably all pureblood.
winlia - Apr 20, 2006 7:36 pm (#1849 of 2969)
Because Severus grew up in a rough neighborhood, he's probably used to a higher threshold for insensitive remarks. I suspect he knows that the teeth remark is nasty but figures that anyone worth their salt won't be devestated by it. I think, too, that Herminone is tough enough mentally to consider the source.
Snape's treatment of Neville is a little more disturbing. It doesn't seem that he bears any real ill will toward Neville, and he may be frustrated that Neville doesn't catch on more quickly, but he seems in danger of doing some serious harm. (I'll bet that it won't pan out that way, though. I think Neville will really shine in #7, and that Snape may well show some confidence in him while they're fighting the DE's.)
Snape is at stage in his life where he's concluded that it's better to be the hunter than the prey, but he hasn't figured out that there are other ways of dealing with people. I think he will move in that direction in book 7.
I know that this isn't the place for religion or politics, but it seems glaringly obvious that JKR had Hitler in mind when she developed LV and the whole mudblood idea. As I'm sure most of you know, one of Hitler's parents was Jewish.
Weeny Owl - Apr 21, 2006 6:21 am (#1850 of 2969)
No, one of Hitler's parents wasn't Jewish. It's been rumored, but not completely proven, that one of his grandfathers was Jewish.
I wondered if the Half-Blood Prince title was more because he may have been picked on for not being a pureblood, and he gave himself that title as a way of telling himself he was as good as they were, if not better.
HungarianHorntail11 - Apr 21, 2006 6:31 am (#1851 of 2969)
My feeling was that his "name" was of more of an invidious move than anything else. Taking into account his snide nature, this would almost beckon anyone to challenge such a self-imposed (if indeed it was self imposed) title. And he certainly doesn't shy away from a challenge.
Solitaire - Apr 21, 2006 10:17 am (#1852 of 2969)
Edited Apr 21, 2006 11:18 am
The whole "blood purity" issues and designations in the HP books smack strongly of terms used in Nazi Germany to refer to people of Jewish ancestry. From the Shoah Resource Center, I found the following information:
Jews were defined as people with at least three full Jewish grandparents. A Mischling of the first degree, or half-Jew, was a person with two Jewish grandparents who did not belong to the Jewish religion or who was not married to a Jew as of September 15, 1935. A Mischling of the second degree, or quarter-Jew, was someone with one Jewish grandparent or an Aryan married to a Jew. ...
... The Mischlinge issue was very important to Adolf Hitler. The policy in Germany was to assimilate second degree Mischlinge into the Aryan nation, while first degree Mischlinge were to be considered like Jews.
These terms sound a lot like the Half-Blood and Mudblood terms, to me. I think Jo is pointing out how devisive and destructive--not to mention stupid, without merit, and just plain evil--such designations are. JM2K, of course ...
Solitaire
virginiaelizabeth - Apr 21, 2006 10:24 am (#1853 of 2969)
Edited Apr 21, 2006 11:25 am
These terms sound a lot like the Half-Blood and Mudblood terms, to me. I think Jo is pointing out how devisive and destructive--not to mention stupid, without merit, and just plain evil--such designations are. JM2K, of course ...
Solitaire
I agree, it does sound a lot like half-blood and mudblood. They have no purpose other than to hurt someone, and I think JKR is also trying to point out that as mean and pointless as these words are, they are still hurtful, and sadly this kind of prejudice exist in the world today. You can't escape it.
Ann - Apr 21, 2006 10:47 am (#1854 of 2969)
Edited Apr 21, 2006 11:53 am
I've just read through the last hundred or so posts (how did I get so behind?), and it strikes me that one way of understanding Snape is to assume that what he attacks most viciously in his students are things that he has most viciously rejected in himself. He has (imperfectly, of course) rid himself of what he sees as his youthful flaws, but such rejections of the self have a tendency to turn around and bite one in the ass. In Snape's case, those bites occur in the form of slippages in his mask and attacks on others. So looking at what he attacks in others can give us interesting clues to the "inner Snape." What does he attack?
First, he seems to resent clumsiness. Adult Snape is invariably described by Rowling as moving with impressive grace and fluidity, the billowing robes, the graceful hands, the subtle flicks of the wand. This is a major change from the gawky adolescent we see in the Pensieve. It may not be Neville's incompetence that really annoys Snape, but his tendency to mess things up through nervous clumsiness. I suspect Snape was the same way himself. (He seems a bit negative about Tonks, as well, in HBP.)
Even more violently, however, he reacts against what he sees as excess emotionalism, most especially in Harry. There's been way too little attention paid, in discussions of the Marauders' relationship with Snape, to the nickname "Snivellus." They wouldn't have used it so much if it weren't apt, and it wouldn't have been apt if he hadn't, as a younger student, cried a lot. Kids are cruel, and such nicknames, nasty though they are, aren't uncommon, but the fact that James is still using it at 15 or 16 and Sirius at 36 or 37 doesn't speak well for either of them. I suspect that this nickname played a major role in Snape's learning to be angry rather than sad, and to hate rather than love--his first steps toward Death-Eater-hood.
He is vicious to Hermione most particularly because of her insecure desire to please her teachers by showing off. Just like Hermione, he did far more than was required as a student. (You can see that in the Pensieve, when he wrote reams and reams on each DADA question.) And he probably learned the hard way that everyone hates a know-it-all.
And he is nasty to her (though slightly less so, I think) about her personal appearance. As has been pointed out, Snape's teeth are far more unattractive than Hermione's are, but he may be sensitive about them. As an adult, he seems to take a rather superficial attitude towards personal grooming, with his impressive black robes. Inside, however, the adult Snape and the adolescent Snape aren't so different (gray nightshirt vs. gray underwear).
So the young Snape, we can deduce, was a physically awkward, over-emotional, insecure, show-off, with grooming issues. Sounds likely enough, doesn't it?
journeymom - Apr 21, 2006 1:51 pm (#1855 of 2969)
Edited Apr 21, 2006 2:52 pm
Ann, that's succinct and well thought out. My subconscious has been dancing around that same conclusion but I couldn't put it into words. I was going to compare Hermione to Snape for this same reason (explaining his hostility) but wondered if I've read too much Granger/Snape fan fiction.
But your explanation makes perfect sense. I like it.
Solitaire - Apr 21, 2006 2:40 pm (#1856 of 2969)
Edited Apr 21, 2006 3:41 pm
the nickname "Snivellus." They wouldn't have used it so much if it weren't apt, and it wouldn't have been apt if he hadn't, as a younger student, cried a lot.
Interesting, Ann. I've often wondered if Sirius and Snape knew each other before both arrived at Hogwarts. Perhaps Sirius knew Snape as a small child who cried a lot. Remember the vision in the Pensieve of the child cowering in the corner as a man yelled at a woman? Could the child have been Snape and the man one of his mother's brothers or uncles ... or her father? Could the Prince family have been related somehow to the Noble and Most Ancient House of Black--bringing Snape into contact with the Black family when Sirius and Snape were small children? Given Sirius's comment that his parents agreed with the whole pure-blood ideas, one can imagine how the Black family might have taken every opportunity to berate and excoriate Snape's mother whenever she came to any family gathering (if she did bother to come after her marriage). Just wondering ...
Solitaire
Gina R Snape - Apr 21, 2006 5:19 pm (#1857 of 2969)
I have always thought Snape knew from personal experience that nobody likes an insufferable know-it-all, and it probably kills him that Hermione has been able to make and keep friends better than he ever did. I also absolutely think he looks at the kids and worries that they are to be the ones to rid the world of Voldemort, and in his estimation they are nowhere near ready nor capable. I think he worries about this a great deal. I think he worries that all his efforts are wasted on a load of talentless hacks. And he doesn't have the patience to wait for them to mature and allow their wizarding skills to nurture.
winlia - Apr 21, 2006 5:48 pm (#1858 of 2969)
Forgive my typing -- I had Epi-Lasik done in one eye this morning.
I see the teenage Snape as emotionally stunted, but not weak. He is shown crying as a child, but that wouldn't be unusual in an abusive home and probably doesn't indicate excessive weakness. He's been portrayed as a talented student, and he's certainly had success as an adult, considering that he's head of house.
Social interaction seems to be where Severus has issues, and I've certainly known kind-hearted people who have a hard time fitting in, even as adults. Often they give offense where none is intended. I've encounter lots of people in the corporate world. Some are amazingly poised and others really struggle, even though they've had plenty of practice at small talk.
Also. as an adult, Severus ought to be able to address his hygiene issues. Certainly, he could get his teeth fixed. I think he doesn't realize that he should.
winlia - Apr 21, 2006 6:04 pm (#1859 of 2969)
Gina I think you're dead on. You obviously know your husband well.
Parents, and to a lesser extent teachers, have the responsibility of preparing their children for adulthood. Somewhere along the line, kids need to come to grips with the harsh realities of life; they world can be very scary even without LV. The more enlightened of us try to lead by examples as well as use literature, movies, and real life events to foster discussion that make them less naive. (Not to mention counceling them in their interactions with their friends.) I think Severus understands that kids need to move toward adulthood; he just lacks finese in the execution. I think that aim is part of why he is sometimes hard on the kids; he wants to toughen them up. I think he's also somewhat jealous of their friendship and popularity, and lashes out a bit.
Saracene - Apr 21, 2006 6:16 pm (#1860 of 2969)
Regarding Snape's nickname, I've seen the suggestion that he was called "Snivellus" because he may have cried a lot when he was younger, but I think it's just as likely that James and Sirius simply wanted to put an insulting spin on his real name.
I've also seen theories on whether there was more to why Sirius hated Snape so much, whether he knew Snape from somewhere else and whether his animosity had something to do with Sirius' brother. While I think that these theories are interesting, I don't quite see why, if that was true, none of that was brought into the light while Sirius was still around. Why leave it to the last book for these particular revelations, after Sirius himself has died?
Re: "Mudbloods" - I checked CoS and in it Hagrid says specifically that "mudblood" is an especially foul term for someone who is muggle-born, with non-magical parents. So it looks like this term is exclusive and someone who is a half-blood would not be referred as a "mudblood". In OotP Bellatrix calls Harry "a filthy half-blood" - but not a "mudblood".
Re: infamous "I see no difference" comment, I can't say it occured to me to see Hermione's distress as closely connected with the fact that her parents were dentists, etc. I'd expect her to be just as hurt if, for instance, Malfoy's hex deformed her nose or eyebrows. And I perhaps feel more protective towards Hermione than any of the boys so that remark of Snape's really made me hate him.
Gina R Snape - Apr 21, 2006 7:04 pm (#1861 of 2969)
Thanks winlia.
Saracene, I have to admit I often forget Hermione's parents are dentists. But I never forget they are muggles. I wonder if other people do too.
As for the Snape/Black relations, you raise a really good point. Why bring it up in the last book and not earlier? Well, there might be a very good reason for it. How often do we read things later on that could have come up sooner but didn't because of plot constraints? I think it's fun to wonder if those two knew each other as younger children, but I cannot think of how theire being related might lend itself to the story. I guess we'll just have to wait!
And I'm still disappointed that nobody in the fandom came up with Snivellus before OOP came out!
winlia - Apr 21, 2006 8:09 pm (#1862 of 2969)
Weeny Owl, A little research quickly showed me that you are correct in stating that it is highly unlikely that Hitler came from Jewish ancestry. (I would have sworn that was true.) Obviously, I'm behind the times. I had just adjusted to the Brontosaurus being called by another name (Apatosaurus, is it?), and now this.
Weeny Owl - Apr 22, 2006 12:06 am (#1863 of 2969)
I can relate to your difficulty over the Brontosaurus, winlia.
I knew about the Hitler thing only because I'm an avid devotee of The History Channel.
Still, Voldemort's history aside, Snape obviously had a Muggle parent, and with Bella's rather obnoxious take on blood, even if he hung out with her and her cronies in school, she could still have given him a hard time later.
wynnleaf - Apr 22, 2006 6:34 am (#1864 of 2969)
Edited Apr 22, 2006 7:36 am
Ann,
I thought your comments were very well thought out and supported well by canon. I had not thought about adolescent Severus writing so much for the exam in the pensieve as being like Hermione, but I think you're quite correct.
The Snivellus name does seem likely to come from having been a kid who at some point cried easily. But usually (as I watch my kids growing up and the interactions among their friends), those kinds of names are set aside as kids get into their mid teens. Yet Sirius and James (or is it just Sirius?) continue to be using that name even at the end of 5th year, and Sirius uses it as an adult. I know Sirius had a sort of "arrested development" from the time he went into Azkaban and onward, but really, he should have quit using petty childhood taunts before the "Snape's worst memory" scene, and certainly before he got put in Azkaban.
Anyway, I think you're spot on that Snape is particularly critical of his students in areas that are of particular importance to him and that in many cases, that means things that have been his own weaknesses and that he works to overcome. Although when he's critical of people's thinking skills, I don't necessarily think he was ever "lacking" in that area. Of course, he could also be aware of times when he made mistakes because he should have have been thinking more clearly, but wasn't.
Certainly, when Snape criticizes Harry for his emotions, we know that Snape can really get overly emotional on occasion. His loss of control over Sirius' escape and Harry looking in his pensieve are the two primary examples. I wouldn't include his anger in Flight of the Prince, as that's entirely understandable. Well, much of his anger over Sirius' escape and Harry getting in the pensieve is also understandable, it's just that Snape's fury overwhelms him at the time. Of course, we know that he must be able to have a great deal of control over his emotions during those times he's around LV.
Ann - Apr 22, 2006 7:23 am (#1865 of 2969)
"He must be able to have a great deal of control over his emotions during those times he's around LV" unless he loyally shows LV his real emotions, and it's Dumbledore he's been fooling!
Of course, I don't believe that for a moment. I think you're right--Snape was never stupid. But I think he was physically clumsy as a child and has had to work to overcome that. And clumsiness makes kids nervous, and it puts them at a disadvantage in many of the activities that are important to them (particularly boys--think the bucking broom in his memory). I suspect he was not very good at the practical aspects of Potions, initially, and possibly also a bit inept at Charms and Transfiguration, which must require good coordination to do the wand movements. So he tried to make up for it by memorizing the textbooks. I bet he was really, really good at Gobstones, however. (Why do we never see anyone playing them? Is this a clue, do you think? Was there a reason JKR didn't make Eileen Prince a champion at, say, chess or Exploding Snap?)
journeymom - Apr 22, 2006 1:57 pm (#1866 of 2969)
" Harry was tempted to buy a solid gold set in Diagon Alley (PA4)" -Lexicon.
What if he had? What would Snape think about Harry playing Gob Stones? Maybe nothing. Not everything is significant.
TheSaint - Apr 22, 2006 2:49 pm (#1867 of 2969)
I like the thought of Snape as a over-emotional child who had to learn to reign them in (maybe with the help of a teacher or a head master). Someone taught him to control his emotions, as he preaches to Harry every time they meet. Someone taught him to be an Legilmensy and Occulmensy (sp)...wonder who else knows them? Seems like this relationship began long before the defection from the Death Eaters.
This has probably been mentioned before ..but I just caught it (how sad). In Spinner's End - Snape says..."You asked where I was when the Dark Lord fell. I was where he had ordered me to be, at Hogwarts school of Witchcraft and Wizardry, BECAUSE HE WISHED ME TO SPY ON ALBUS DUMBLEDORE." (emphasis mine)
Now he makes the Unbreakable Vow with Narcissca he says..."You see, in the unlikely event that Draco succeeds, I shall remain at Hogwarts a little longer, fulfilling my useful role as spy."
Now, maybe I am wrong, but if draco succeeds and kills Dumbledore, what would his useful role be? DD is dead.
Gina R Snape - Apr 22, 2006 2:59 pm (#1868 of 2969)
He could remain to spy on the Order and to recruit new DEs.
K Stahl - Apr 22, 2006 3:47 pm (#1869 of 2969)
Harry is now and always has been the primary target. Dumbledore was an impediment.
Choices - Apr 22, 2006 5:31 pm (#1870 of 2969)
Harry is definitely the prime target, but if Harry is not at Hogwarts (he stated he would not be **), then what would keep Snape occupied there? There would be no Dumbledore or Harry to spy on and the DADA position would probably not be his any longer (if there is indeed a curse on it). Would he just go back to teaching potions - would Slughorn give it up? Questions, questions!!!
*Even though Harry claimed he would not be at Hogwarts for 7th year, I really think he will be there either as a student or for other reasons.
TheSaint - Apr 22, 2006 6:07 pm (#1871 of 2969)
But the directive is...spy on Albus Dumbledore. If he knows Dumbledore will be dead should draco succeed, why would he need to remain?
Die Zimtzicke - Apr 22, 2006 7:12 pm (#1872 of 2969)
I don't think Harry will be back at Hogwarts as a full-time student.
I think he will have to face Snape someplace, and that he will be at Hogwarts at some point, but those two things aren't going to be together.
If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. We'll see.
wynnleaf - Apr 22, 2006 7:56 pm (#1873 of 2969)
TheSaint,
The way I read the Spinners End chapter, I don't think Severus actually knew what Draco's task was when he made that comment. But I never really noticed that comment before. To me, it supports the notion that Snape didn't know that Draco's mission was to kill DD, therefore his comment about staying on at Hogwarts to spy made sense to him at the time. I've always thought that Severus was basically "fishing" for information in his discussion with Bella and Cissy. Although that comment of his could possibly have meant other things than just spying on DD, it does seem to mean spying on DD, since that's what Snape was only just talking about. If he meant staying at Hogwarts to spy on DD, then he didn't know what Draco's task was. In that case, he went into the Vow blind which further supports the notion that he's loyal to DD and was simply trying to get information, hoping the vow was just to keep Draco safe.
virginiaelizabeth - Apr 22, 2006 8:15 pm (#1874 of 2969)
I also don't think that Snape really knew what the task Draco was supposed to do actually was. It isn't clearly stated in the vow what Snape is to do. It just says to complete Draco's task if he cannot, but if Snape thought that the task was something other than to kill DD, say, he thought it was to get the DE's inside the castle, then there would be no harm done. I agree with you wynnleaf, I think Snape just wanted information.
HungarianHorntail11 - Apr 22, 2006 8:32 pm (#1875 of 2969)
I agree, wynnleaf, I was thinking the same thing as I played "catch up" on this thread.
I wonder, though, if the task for Draco was ordered by Big V himself, didn't Snape underestimate him? That does not jive with what we know about Snape. . .not to me anyway.
TheSaint - Apr 22, 2006 8:53 pm (#1876 of 2969)
As I re-read the chapter, I was thinking Snape knew just what he was doing, until I go to thos two lines. Then I was not so sure, as they completely conflict each other in retrospect.
Dobby Socks - Apr 22, 2006 10:26 pm (#1877 of 2969)
Edited Apr 23, 2006 12:53 am
If Voldemort thought it would be worthwhile to spy on the Order with DD eliminated (they are, after all, the Order of the Phoenix, albeit temporarily leaderless, but still the most organized resistance group we’ve seen) I can see how LV might still value Snape’s role at Hogwarts, however diminshed. Or, he might rather assign him to some other significant yet rather menial task like torturing the prophecy out of Trelawney.
But, in reality, it’s all a moot point now. DD and Snape are gone from Hogwarts.
Hi Ann: I agree with almost everything you said: good summary response to what must have been several hundred posts. However, out of curiousity I wonder how this fits… “I suspect he was not very good at the practical aspects of Potions”… This seems to me to be one of his natural strengths. Do you view the precision in potion measurements as a skill that his alleged clumsiness would interfere with? In a parallel with Neville for instance? Just curious on that point in particular.
I keep going back and forth on this one, but in “Spinner’s End,” I think that while fiddling with the curtain, Snape had enough time to assess the possibilities of what Draco’s task might be. There are only so many possibilities, and since killing Harry isn’t one (as LV wants Harry for himself), I think Snape probably reached the right conclusion. However, I also think Narcissa’s addition of the third part of the vow caught him off guard. I think he correctly deduced what it was, but didn’t expect Narcissa to throw it quite so specifically into the vow itself. It was a gamble. Thus the hand flinch.
I think I may have to add Snape and Harry playing gobstones to my “completely ludicrous requests” list for book 7. Are gobstones the size of “neverending gobstoppers” or more like Bocci balls? I can just see this now. Oh, fun!
~Camille
Laura W - Apr 23, 2006 2:23 am (#1878 of 2969)
Are we absolutely 100 per cent certain that the task Voldemort gave to Draco was to kill DD? Is there any chance that it could have been something else?
Narcissa says, "Then I am right, he has chosen Draco in revenge! He does not mean him to succeed, he wants him to be killed trying!" and later on the same page, "In other words, it doesn't matter to him if Draco is killed!"
Come on, I know Voldemort is mad at Lucius but I think that would take second place to his wanting to get Dumbledore out of the way. The idea of him recruiting a 16-year-old wizard (and one who has proven himself to be neither particularly brave nor talented) to do this most difficult deed -- DD being the most powerful wizard, and all that -- just rings untrue to me. Regardless of the revenge Voldemert wants to exact on Lucius (and which I am sure he will) for blowing the prophecy job.
Also, call me naive, but I believed that Snape *did* know what the plan was when I read - and reread - Spinner's End. He convinced *me*! You know, with his comments like, "If Draco succeeds he will be honoured above all others." and "He intends me to do it in the end, I think. But he is determined that Draco should try first."
I do believe, however, that Cissy's third part of the Unbreakable Vow caught Severus by surprise. (To refuse at that point would, however, have tipped his hand, spy-wise, so he agreed.)
I realize that I might be all wet in all that I have written here, but this whole issue really does have as many twists and turns as a certain maze in GoF.
Laura
Saracene - Apr 23, 2006 4:29 am (#1879 of 2969)
For my own part, I believe that Snape didn't know anything about Voldemort's orders to Draco until the sisters' visit, but very possibly figured it all out during the course of the conversation. By the time Narcissa went gasping about how Snape could do it instead of Draco, I think Snape had a pretty clear idea of what Draco's mission was.
And I'm sure that he didn't anticipate Narcissa asking for an Unbreakable Vow and then springing that tricksy third clause on him mid-Vow.
As for Draco's mission itself, while I guess there is a chance that it might have been something else, I don't quite see the need for the whole thing to be more complicated than what it looks like. In the tower scene, Draco says that he's got a job to do; Dumbledore suggests that Draco gets on and does it, and then tells him that he's not a killer; he then tells Draco that he knew that Draco has been trying to kill him all year. The Death Eaters also clearly expect Draco to kill Dumbledore. I've seen a few theories on whether Draco's original mission was something different, but again, I just don't see the need for such twist and why it should be kept secret until the final book.
As for why Voldemort would put punishing Lucius as a top priority over getting Dumbledore out of the way... well I think that if killing Dumbledore was his top priority he'd order Snape to assassinate Dumbledore a long time ago. And probably even to do it in a way that would leave Snape himself looking blameless; surely Snape could pull that off.
Also, there's a fact that Voldemort supplied Draco with a back-up, and that Dumbledore himself admitted that he had thought breaking into Hogwarts impossible. Perhaps Voldemort did initially give Draco his mission as a cruel joke, but maybe when Draco came up with his clever cabinets plan Voldemort thought, hmm little twerp might actually be on to something,
Laura W - Apr 23, 2006 5:50 am (#1880 of 2969)
Re post #1846 by haymoni, especially
I don't think the DEs have a problem with Half-Bloods. It is Muggles, Muggle-borns and Muggle-Lovers that need to worry. I've been wrong before, though!
Based on the canon I just found, you are *not* wrong about that. HBP, chapter 12, p. 227 (Cdn edition):
Hermione says: "The Death Eaters can't all be pure-blood, there aren't enough pure-blood wizards left. I expect most of them are half-bloods pretending to be pure. It's only the Muggle-borns they hate, they'd be quite happy to let you and Ron join up."
And Ron replies: "There is no way they'd let me be a Death Eater! My whole family are blood traitors! That's as bad as Muggle-borns to Death Eaters!"
So your whole post (1846) seems to be accurate on all counts, haymoni.
Laura
journeymom - Apr 23, 2006 8:12 am (#1881 of 2969)
We're thinking of this as if Snape is either Voldemort's man or Dumbledore's man. What if he is neither, but turns out to ultimately be his own man?
Dd said Voldemort doesn't have friends. He said some claim to be his right hand man but they are lying or delusional or whatever, because Voldemort does not, in truth, have a confidant. This goes against what Snape said in Spinners End, about being Voldy's closest assistant. (He did say something like that, didn't he? I don't have the book with me.) I tend to believe Dd's assessment here, of course. So what of Snape's comment? Is he delusional? Or is he perhaps bluffing to Cissy and Bella? Though I figure it would be difficult to lie to Bella about that. At the end of OotP I got the impression that if anybody was 'close' to Voldemort it was Bella.
But she didn't call Snape on that comment. But if Snape is Voldemort's good graces, why was Pettigrew living with him at Spinners End?
So many questions!
virginiaelizabeth - Apr 23, 2006 11:14 am (#1882 of 2969)
I have always wondered why Pettigrew was staying with Snape. Is he there on LV's orders or on DD's orders. Just seems strange...why Snape? I doubt LV would care about where Pettigrew wnet, or what happened to him, he used him for what he needed. Does Snape have Pettigrew there on DD orders instead? can't think of a reason why he would, but still intresting none the less.
wynnleaf - Apr 23, 2006 12:03 pm (#1883 of 2969)
Edited Apr 23, 2006 1:04 pm
Having Pettigrew at Spinners End is interesting. Why does JKR put him there? So far, his being there didn't affect the plot at all. The only way Pettigrew being at Spinner's End affected HBP was that it made us readers ask "why's he there?" His being there doesn't give us strong clues about Snape's loyalties, other than to make us wonder if LV suspects Snape. So why did JKR want Pettigrew there? What's he doing for the plot? What's his presence do for the "mystery of Snape" that JKR wants to present to the readers? Hmm.
I suppose we'll find out more about Pettigrew in book 7. I'm expecting to see more of him relating to the characters, but not necessarily some big explanation for why he was at Spinners End at the summer between Harry's 5th and 6th year. So why did JKR want him in the scene?
TheSaint - Apr 23, 2006 12:06 pm (#1884 of 2969)
Possibly it was to show that no matter how much Pettigrew sacrificed, he is not with the Dark Lord. He has been sent off on some menial task, just to get rid of him. Voldemort does not like people.
winlia - Apr 23, 2006 12:15 pm (#1885 of 2969)
Edited Apr 23, 2006 1:26 pm
When I joined the Lexicon, the main question that I wanted to explore is why Severus agreed to the third part of that vow. Whether or not he knew what Draco's task was, whether or not the task was to kill DD, and whether or not Snape is loyal to DD, a much safer answer would have been something along the lines of, well that's up to LV.
Added to that, Snape is portrayed as a pretty cool customer in Spinner's End. His mastery of the situation seems to derail at the third part of the vow.
PS For that matter, why does Narcissa make the third request? Snape's killing of DD doesn't do much to help Draco.
I don't get it.
The One - Apr 23, 2006 12:31 pm (#1886 of 2969)
As for Petigrew at Snape's house, I think that only shows one thing: Everyone despise a betrayer, even his new friends.
frogface - Apr 23, 2006 1:09 pm (#1887 of 2969)
I doubt its only shows one thing, thats not very much like any author, least of all JKR. She'll have had a good reason for putting him there, probably more than one reason, and I suspect its probably to do with plot. I've often toyed with the idea that DD orchestrated events so that Pettigrew would be staying with Snape. How would Peter react, I wonder, if Snape made a nasty comment about James? Peter and Snape both play very similar roles in the story. They are both of the marauders generation, they both contributed to the deaths of James and Lily, they both have life debts to Harry, they are or once were spies, and they both betrayed (or appeared to) the Order. And JKR chose to pair them up for one of the opening chapters...veeeeery interesting methinks.
Soul Search - Apr 23, 2006 2:05 pm (#1888 of 2969)
Edited Apr 23, 2006 3:06 pm
I agree, frogface. Very interesting.
Something is up. Wormtail still needs retribution for betraying the Potters. And, he owes Harry some sort of life debt.
We also strongly suspect that Snape was particularly upset with James' and/or Lily's death. Voldemort may know this. Wormtail probably doesn't.
Add to that Wormtail laughing at Snape's discomfort imposed by James and Sirius to create a very tense situation.
My first thought was that Voldemort set this up for amusement and to get rid of Wormtail, at Snape's hand. But that wouldn't fit all the possibilities.
journeymom - Apr 23, 2006 2:30 pm (#1889 of 2969)
I wondered if Pettigrew was baby sitting Snape, though Snape was trying hard to make it look like the opposite was true.
Was Pettigrew at the battle at the Ministry?
Magic Words - Apr 23, 2006 2:38 pm (#1890 of 2969)
Replying to several posts:
Okay, I take back the comment about DE's persecuting half-bloods along with Muggle-borns.
I don't see why LV couldn't have been serious in expecting Draco to kill DD. Even he can't best DD in a fair fight, so if he wanted someone to kill DD it would have to be someone completely unexpected, who could get close to DD without putting him on guard. That pretty much leaves Draco and Snape. Maybe he did expect Snape to do it in the end, but since that would mean Snape having to flee Hogwarts, he wanted to exhaust all his other options first. After all, Draco nearly succeeded, so it wasn't such an unreasonable request.
Journeymom, if I'm remembering correctly, it is Narcissa, not Snape, who claims that Snape is closest to Voldemort. I think.
"How would Peter react, I wonder, if Snape made a nasty comment about James?" -frogface
Maybe it's Snape's job to goad Wormtail into repaying his life debt through reverse psychology.
If you ask me, both Peter's fate and Draco's will hinge directly on what Snape does in the next book.
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journeymom - Apr 23, 2006 2:48 pm (#1891 of 2969)
"Journeymom, if I'm remembering correctly, it is Narcissa, not Snape, who claims that Snape is closest to Voldemort. I think."
That's right. Thanks. =)
Gina R Snape - Apr 23, 2006 5:57 pm (#1892 of 2969)
Well, I agree it is interesting that Pettigrew is at Spinner's End. But while he owes Harry a life debt, Snape does not. Snape owed James the life debt.
I think Voldemort wants Pettigrew and Snape to keep an eye on each other. It is a way to keep them both in check, with the added bonus that Snape can treat him like an animal for retribution. It is hard for us at this point to ever think of Pettigrew as one of the marauders, knowing both the relationship he had with the other 3 boys, and how he betrayed them. But Snape may still see him as an accomplice of his childhood torturers.
I think Snape wants Pettigrew around for tactical purposes. I think he knows Pettigrew owes Harry a life debt, and I think he will thrust Pettigrew into a situation to save Potter at the right moment at the end. This will not only help to save Harry's life, but will give Snape the opportunity to save Harry's life without giving his own hand away unles he absolutely has to.
der 905 - Apr 23, 2006 9:20 pm (#1893 of 2969)
I don't know how this got in my head, but I thought maybe Snape requested Wormtail so he could keep an eye on him; and if the opportunity presented itself, to torture him for enjoying what James and Sirius did to him. He certainly made him look and probably feel bad when Narcisa and Bellatrix where there.
haymoni - Apr 24, 2006 5:08 am (#1894 of 2969)
I think Voldy put them together because he doesn't trust either one - or ANYone, for that matter.
He knows Wormtail would "rat" out Snape in a heartbeat, just to secure his spot in the fold.
I think Voldy trusts Snape enough to tell him if Wormtail is faltering.
Solitaire - Apr 24, 2006 6:24 am (#1895 of 2969)
Edited Apr 24, 2006 7:29 am
I am way behind on this thread--about 50 posts--but a thought occurred to me as I was posting on another thread. It may have been thoroughly canvassed already, but I have missed many discussions on this thread at various times this year, due to the fact that it moves so quickly. Anyway, here goes ...
The more I think about it, the more I wonder if Snape was deliberately placed in the DADA position by Dumbledore in order to reveal information to Harry about Horcruxes. Surely anyone who is as knowledgeable about the Dark Arts as he has always been would know about them ... right? If Snape is a good guy--and I'm not yet conceding the point, Gina, just entertaining it --then what better way to ensure that Harry & Co. get all of the necessary information about Horcruxes and how to find and destroy them? It is a scary thought, because--if it is true--I do not see Harry taking any kind of instruction from Snape now. Dungbombs, anyone?
Solitaire
Soul Search - Apr 24, 2006 8:06 am (#1896 of 2969)
Solitaire, good thought. Why was Snape put in the DADA position? Just some thoughts:
Dumbledore well knew of Voldemort's curse on the DADA position, so assigning Snape to the position had to be with full knowledge of possible consequences. Maybe it was even part of some "grand plan" of Dumbledore's.
Dumbledore needed Slughorn at Hogwarts so Harry could get that memory from him. Slughorn was a potions master, so Snape had to give up the potions position. DADA was the only open position.
The OotP experience with Occulmency lessons should of shown Dumbledore that Snape teaching Harry anything was problematic. Indeed, Harry had trouble with non-verbal spells after Snape tried to teach it. Harry seemed to lose interest in DADA with Snape teaching it.
While Snape was very knowledgable in DADA, he is a poor teacher, especially to Harry. I saw no difference in the few classes we witnessed.
Still, maybe Harry did learn something from Snape that will be important in book seven. Clearly, Snape was trying to teach Harry, even as they dueled on the way out of Hogwarts. I took this to mean Snape actually wanted Harry to learn things he will need to survive.
I can't see how any of the few specific DADA spells mentioned could be applied to horcruxes. There is even some question if Snape knows about Voldemort's horcruxes. Suspicions, maybe, but knowing, probably not. On the other hand, Harry is going to need help with horcruxes; did Dumbledore mean for Snape to help?
Gina R Snape - Apr 24, 2006 8:43 am (#1897 of 2969)
Well, Solitaire, I'm happy to see you entertaining some thoughts.
I can't remember Snape teaching anything about horcruxes, though. I tend to agree with Soul Search. DD needed Slughorn at the school. Plus, I think he had his plan from the start, after Snape did the vow. He knew he'd be dead by the end of the school year and needed to strategically place Snape. He knew putting Snape in the DADA position would mean the end of him teaching at Hogwarts. Now all we have to do is waaaaiiiiit for this explanation to come out in the last book!
The One - Apr 24, 2006 9:07 am (#1898 of 2969)
I have always wonderedabout DD assigning anyone to the DADA postion when it is cursed.
I have no problems with the theory that DD assigned Snape to the position, as he knew he was going to die, and he set it up in a way that Snape escaped the school and joined LV in a way that would give LV very strong reasons to trust Snape.
But, does this mean that DD with open eyes sacrified one wizard a year to keep the school going?
When did Lord Voldemnort request the position? It must have been before the first war, that is it must be 15 years + duration of 1st war + some years ago. If the postion has been cursed for all those years, that is quite a number of teachers he has put at risk.
The One - Apr 24, 2006 9:28 am (#1899 of 2969)
As for the loyalties of Snape, I find it a bit lame if he is simply a death eater, and thats it. That is my feeling. I have two different imagfes of the ending for Snape.
1. I image an ending where Snape does help Harry to defeat the Dark Lord, and the vanishes.
And then it is left open if that is in order to return himself as the next Dark Lord in some years time, or if it really was loyal to Dumbledore all the time.
2. I imagine that SNape has somewhere a horcrux himself, and that he is immortal because of that. I imagine that he either was forced into making it or made it on his own accord and regrets it.
I imagine that in the final showdown SNape does help Harry in a crucial way, but is "killed" by LV. But, as there is a horcrux, he ends up as VaporSnape.
The final reconcilation between Harry and Snape will then be that Harry will fullfill Snapes wish, and destroy the horcrux, allowing Snape todie properly.
Just two wild ideas, but there you are.
journeymom - Apr 24, 2006 9:58 am (#1900 of 2969)
Two wild but interesting ideas!
Regarding Dd assigning anyone to the DADA position, I assumed (dangerous, that) it took him a few years of teachers being fired or injured or what not before he noticed the pattern. Then he inferred the post is cursed. However, do we know how long Quirrell had the post? Did he have the DADA job before he became Quirrellmort?
So yes, it seems to me Dd at least hired Quirrell, Lockhart, Lupin and Umbridge (blech) knowing they'd be out of a job somehow by year's end.
And it's possible that JKR simply overlooked the fact that there would be several DADA professors between the time Voldemort cursed the position and Harry's first year, when the story begins. I think she doesn't think those little facts through. But I'm also guessing the average 11 year old reader doesn't notice much less care about those niggling little facts, either.
Choices - Apr 24, 2006 9:59 am (#1901 of 2969)
I think we have yet to see the reason for Snape being given the DADA position played out. His teaching did not seem to contribute much to what happened in HBP and now it is ended - what good did it do for him to be the DADA teacher? He did not appear to teach the kids anything really important. Surely we will see what impact it had in the final book - I know there is more to it than meets the eye.
Die Zimtzicke - Apr 24, 2006 10:14 am (#1902 of 2969)
I agree that it's way too simplistic to just speculate on whether or not Snape is Dumbledore's man or Voldemort's man. I too think he's his own man, and will do what is best for him, or at least what will uphold the ideals he believes in the most.
Gina R Snape - Apr 24, 2006 10:17 am (#1903 of 2969)
You know, I am not so sure the cursed position was necessarily life-threatening. Just that whoever took the job would be out of a job at the end of the year.
With this in mind, it does make me think DD wasn't too overly worried about Umbridge. He knew she'd be gone by the end of the year. It was more a question of how much damage she could do between September and June. Now, it doesn't seem like people were knocking down doors for the DADA job. He had to go out begging people to be hired. I remember Hagrid saying Lockhart was the only one to apply for the position that particular year. It must have wrankled Snape to no end to see people coming and going, thinking he could do a better job of it. But I rather suspect when he finally did get the position, DD told him it was cursed and he'd be gone by the end of the year. Otherwise, that truly is a horrible way to treat/reward someone who has been in your service for so many years.
wynnleaf - Apr 24, 2006 12:51 pm (#1904 of 2969)
Edited Apr 24, 2006 1:54 pm
But I rather suspect when he finally did get the position, DD told him it was cursed and he'd be gone by the end of the year. Otherwise, that truly is a horrible way to treat/reward someone who has been in your service for so many years.
Gina, I imagine it was a bit like below:
From the various things DD and Severus said about when DD was injured by the ring horcrux, it looks like DD got injured by the ring horcrux (and saved by Severus) only days before the Spinners End vow. Then it would only have been a few days after that when DD sent a letter to Slughorn to get him to come back to Hogwarts. (If anyone wants my timeline reasoning with accompanying quotes, I'm happy to give it in another post.)
Anyway, I'd expect that Severus must have told DD immediately about the vow and DD starting writing to Slughorn about the potions position.
Why would he want Slughorn for potions, instead of looking for someone else to fill the DADA position? Simple.
1. He knew Snape was going to be gone at the end of the year regardless what he was teaching. 2. Snape is head of Slytherin, so he'd need new Slytherin head of house. The new head of Slytherin couldn't be the new DADA professor, since the position was cursed and whoever taught DADA would be gone by the end of the year. 3. DD wanted Slughorn anyway for the horcrux info.
So DD would more likely have told Snape about the curse and that since Snape was clearly only going to be around for one more year anyway, DD could give him the DADA position at last, without having to worry about the curse. Further, he could get Slughorn for potions, cover the question of a future head for Slytherin, get info on horcruxes from Slughorn, and protect Slughorn from LV.
If DD explained it that way to Snape, it wouldn't have been a terrible way to treat Snape. Instead, it would explain to him (if he didn't already know, and I'm betting he did know) about the curse, while giving him the DADA position at last, if only for a year.
Was Severus a better teacher in DADA? Hard to say. We learn very little about 6th year DADA classes. I don't actually see any evidence that Severus was a poor teacher that year (no positive evidence of being a good teacher either). All of the comments or descriptions we've got are from Harry's pov, or relating to things Harry said in class. I thought Harry's comments to Snape about the Inferi mostly deserved Snape's remarks -- about like explaining the difference between a zebra and a bear by saying "the zebra has stripes." We know Harry disagreed about something Snape said about repelling dementors. And we read about the first DADA class, where Harry thinks Severus sounds like he loves Dark Arts and speaks "caressingly" about them, but Hermione heard it differently and thought Snape sounded a lot like Harry. So really, we don't know much about how Snape taught, outside of Harry's by now strongly biased point of view.
Dobby Socks - Apr 24, 2006 12:56 pm (#1905 of 2969)
I also believe that the DADA position was cursed specifically meaning the teacher wouldn’t be able to return to it after the year was over, but not that it was necessarily dangerous. Quirrell, Lockhart, and Umbridge brought their problems on themselves. I’m sure Lupin was glad for the work, even if it was only for a year. There’s the whole “werewolf-outing” issue, but I’m sure that his condition would be quite difficult to hide in any regular job.
I do wonder how long Snape was actually aware of the curse. I suspect it was for longer than just the one year he spent teaching the subject. Apart from his statement in “Spinner’s End,” we know only through student rumor that he coveted the post (although his behavior at times certainly indicated that was the case). Also, the rumor that it was cursed was circulating among the students and most likely in the general community too, given that the position was so difficult to fill (or had DD simply run out of barely qualified candidates; that certainly seems the case when Umbridge was appointed).
Anyway, I’m speculating that he did want it, but was aware of the curse, which would justify DD not offering him the job, but would still irritate him greatly. But this anger would then be directed at LV, since he cursed it, not at DD. I’m sure that both DD and LV wouldn’t want him to take the position until it fit their ends. BTW, I don’t for a moment buy the explanation that DD refused Snape the position because he was afraid it would bring about a relapse. Perhaps for the first year or two, but certainly not after then. It sure did help to further muddy the evil guy / good guy issue at the end of HBP though. So it’s worked wonderfully for JKR.
The One - Apr 24, 2006 1:05 pm (#1906 of 2969)
Apart from his statement in “Spinner’s End,” we know only through student rumor that he coveted the post (although his behavior at times certainly indicated that was the case).
Snape also confirms this when Umbridge asks him during her inspection. So I think that Snape'sdesire to teach DADA may be considered a fact.
virginiaelizabeth - Apr 24, 2006 1:14 pm (#1907 of 2969)
Edited Apr 24, 2006 2:16 pm
I think DD never let Snape have the DADA job simply because it was cursed, and Snape was a loyal co-worker/friend and he didn't want to loose him as a teacher. I never thought it was because he thought it might make Snape have a relapse of his DE days.
Yes she asks him if its true that every year he applies for the DADA position and he says yes then the evil toad says something along the lines of "do you have any idea why he has never appointed you...?"
Dobby Socks - Apr 24, 2006 1:21 pm (#1908 of 2969)
Solitare,
Because we saw so little of Snape’s DADA classes, it’s difficult to assess his competence in the position. We know he was trying to teach the kids non-verbal spells, and assigned an essay on the best way to fight off dementors. Harry was finally able to perform a non-verbal spell (the HBP’s), but as far as we know he was unable to do so in class. Did he actually learn in class, but was unable to perform around Snape because his hatred for him consumed too much of Harry’s energy? Probably, since he has no problem learning from the HBP’s textbook. Hopefully, he retained some of this knowledge, as opposed to the text simply being a way for him to “cheat” in Potions.
I’m sure Snape didn’t teach the class about Horcruxes, after the emphasis put on the banned nature of disseminating Horcrux information at Hogwarts. But I think Snape’s role in the last book will be to help Harry, primarily with Horcruxes. I could be way off track, but that’s just my opinion.
… This was the other post I was writing, but Wynnleaf’s got it covered. Lol. So, um, I agree with Wynnleaf.
However, I do think the most pragmatic way to distinguish ghosts from inferi is to assess whether they’re solid or not. Thus, you know whether to get out of the way quickly or just not to worry about it. The added information is nice, but I’m not sure whether that’s what the person was asking for. Was the questioner rather dim, or just trying to waste class time? At any rate, it provided some great comic moments.
wynnleaf - Apr 24, 2006 1:35 pm (#1909 of 2969)
Edited Apr 24, 2006 2:36 pm
Thanks, Dobby Socks!
On inferi, it turned out that the difference between inferi and ghosts was quite important in HBP and had little to do with how they look. Harry discovered later that how inferi act and what repels them is a far greater difference than being able to not see through them. Sorry, I don't have the book in front of me. Perhaps the original question in the class was how did they look different from ghosts. But I had thought the question was what the difference was, in a more general sense.
Catherine - Apr 24, 2006 1:38 pm (#1910 of 2969)
Edited Apr 24, 2006 2:39 pm
But while he owes Harry a life debt, Snape does not. Snape owed James the life debt. --Gina
The forum has always enjoyed discussing various "inheritances." I suppose the issue of whether "the sins of the father" or the "what is owed Dad" passes to his child falls in the "I wonder" category.
In Harry's case, it does seem that he has "inherited" Snape's dislike of James, as well as James's dislike of Snape.
I did wonder, reading HbP, if Snape "owes" Harry still. To use Gina's word, that would rankle indeed.
Gina R Snape - Apr 24, 2006 1:41 pm (#1911 of 2969)
Edited Apr 24, 2006 2:43 pm
wynnleaf, your time line post is precisely how I see things as well. I was just too lazy to type it all out so thanks for sharing that!
And I love that line of Snape's. "Oh, very good Potter. . . Ghosts are transparent. It seemed to me that in the last book, the kids and Snape are more on level with each other. A lot of the kids seem to get his sarcasm and chuckle at his remarks, as might be expected of teenagers more than small children. And it was a really good point of example with how Hermione and Harry heard the DADA speech differently. Yet another way we can see our view of Snape as going through the "Harry filter."
ETA: Oh. I missed Catherine's post! I have always thought Snape felt a certain obligation as a result of the life debt. And I still think his switching to DD's side was partly because of that life debt. But it would really be a huge massive pain in the, er, wand, if life debts were passed on to children. I should think at some point it would get ridiculous and everyone would owe a life debt to someone.
Dobby Socks - Apr 24, 2006 1:51 pm (#1912 of 2969)
Wynnleaf,
Oops! You're quite right. I would assume if they're working for LV, they'd be in attack mode, but I'd completely forgotten about "The Cave." And that's a hard thing to do. Guess it goes to demonstrate what happens when you're too busy laughing to pay attention to Prof. Snape. I'd look up the question, but I think you're right about that too. Plus, it would add another 20 minutes or so to my posting time. Not wise when the thread is moving this fast.
winlia - Apr 24, 2006 3:18 pm (#1913 of 2969)
I considered Snape's attainment of the DADA position an indication that the situation with LV (and, in fact, the series of books) was drawing to a close.
It may be that if (when) LV is conquered, the position will no longer be cursed.
Magic Words - Apr 24, 2006 3:22 pm (#1914 of 2969)
I interpreted Snape's interference in the Quidditch match in PS/SS to mean that even if Snape owed Harry anything because of his life debt to James, it was no longer an issue. Dumbledore says Snape worked so hard to protect Harry because he wanted to be "even" with James for James saving his life. This could point to a magical life-debt, or it could be nothing more than his pride resenting the fact that he had owed James.
If the latter, could Harry owe Snape a life-debt?
journeymom - Apr 24, 2006 5:04 pm (#1915 of 2969)
Edited Apr 24, 2006 6:05 pm
I think the inherited life debt idea is horrible! Forgive me if anybody here is a big proponent. It's incredibly unjust. I like the idea that Snape had a Unbreakable Vow with the Potters to protect Harry. It has literary symmetry with his UV with Narcissa, and it's a more concrete reason for Dumbledore to trust Snape.
TheSaint - Apr 24, 2006 5:30 pm (#1916 of 2969)
Yes, I am not a big believer in inhereting someone else's life-debt. It was just something Snape felt he owed him, not something that had to be transferred.
HungarianHorntail11 - Apr 25, 2006 6:32 am (#1917 of 2969)
Edited Apr 25, 2006 7:49 am
I am still playing catch-up, but would like to toss out this thought. Regarding the Wormtail/Snape situation, it seems as though the last time they worked together, the Potters were killed. Remember, Snape revealed what he knew about the prophecy and Wormtail was the secret keeper, thereby working in unison (in a sense).
When Snape had a change of heart, (or so I think it went in this order), he knew, as a DE that one of the Marauders was a DE. He probably made the same mistake others (except Big V) made by overlooking Wormtail. He was right in not trusting Sirius, but wrong about the manner in which he was untrustworthy.
Solitaire, the one reason I cannot see that as the reason why DD put Snape into DADA for the reason you state is because I think, then, DD would not have felt it so important to "teach" him these things himself. DD gave him the info. regarding the horcruxes, I don't recall Snape as having given any horcrux info. to Harry.
I am wondering if it was only to give Snape what he has wanted all of those years and knew it was his last "hurrah". This would be a great implement in revealing to the reader that there was some level of knowing Snape would not make it to another year at HW.
Could someone clarify (my memory is failing me at the moment) as to whether there is canon regarding more specifically when the DADA curse came into effect? I had the impression that it was set in place with Quirrel. Of course, I've been wrong before.
EDIT: Thanks, Gina. The reason I question it is because I had the impression that Quirrel had been in that position for longer than one year before his hiatus. Perhaps that was even the reason for his temporary departure. I am now thoroughly confused.
Gina R Snape - Apr 25, 2006 6:39 am (#1918 of 2969)
Well according to the Lexicon timeline Riddle was turned down for the DADA job in 1955. I had the impression from the book that he cursed the position at that time. But I'd need to reread it.
wynnleaf - Apr 25, 2006 7:54 am (#1919 of 2969)
Edited Apr 25, 2006 8:56 am
DD told Harry that LV cursed the position immediately after DD showed Harry the pensieve memories regarding Riddle's visit to Hogwarts and his attempt to get a position teaching DADA. That certainly makes it seem as though LV placed the curse shortly after he was denied the position.
HH11, I'm not quite sure what you mean by Severus and Peter working in "unison." Severus heard the prophecy well before Harry's birth -- there was time for him to pass on the partial prophecy to LV, become aware that LV was targeting the Potters, become a spy, and still have been a spy for some time prior to LV's downfall as DD testified later. We don't know when Pettigrew turned to LV. It could have been only shortly before the Potter's deaths. We just don't know.
We also don't know that Snape actually knew that it was a Marauder that was a traitor. As I recall, Fudge in POA said that a spy had warned DD that LV was targeting the Potters. That would almost certainly have been Snape. Then Severus said that James had been warned (by Snape? or at Snape's advisement to DD?) to not use a Marauder as a secret keeper. But I don't think Snape had definite knowledge that it was one of the 3 other Marauders that was passing on info to LV. He apparently had evidence that someone was passing on information, but we don't know that he knew it was a Marauder.
Anyway, Severus turned toward the Order's side before the Potters went into hiding. Pettigrew helped LV find the Potters, but at the time Severus was working for DD.
Solitaire - Apr 25, 2006 8:01 am (#1920 of 2969)
HH, I do not think Snape did give info about Horcruxes--or, if he did, it was "off camera." I just was wondering if, perhaps, Dumbledore might have felt that Snape had the knowledge and ability to give the kids further information about these things, in the event that something should happen to himself. Perhaps he had not intended things to go down as they did, with Snape having to flee the school. As I said, it was just an idea ... but I thought it worth mentioning, even if it was discarded as not really viable.
Solitaire
Magic Words - Apr 25, 2006 9:19 am (#1921 of 2969)
I've heard it suggested that maybe Quirrell taught DADA for multiple years, but no two consecutive years. I also think it's possible that after he joined Voldemort, Voldemort exempted him from the curse.
I don't think DD had a huge ulterior motive for giving Snape the DADA job. He knew Snape would have to leave by the end of the year regardless, and he had always wanted the job, and it freed up Potions for Slughorn. IMHO, he wouldn't have given Snape the job for the sole purpose of recruiting Slughorn. Putting your double-agent in a cursed position is a pretty big risk. I wonder if Snape was partially telling the truth when he said DD feared the DADA job would tempt him back into his old ways. If a teacher was a former DE and something is definitely going to happen to him, reverting back to being a DE seems highly likely. It would be tempting fate, in a way.
wynnleaf - Apr 25, 2006 9:28 am (#1922 of 2969)
Magic Words,
While agree with the other points in your post, I don't really agree with this comment:
If a teacher was a former DE and something is definitely going to happen to him, reverting back to being a DE seems highly likely.
DD reiterates his trust in Severus in almost every book. With GOF on, he is pretty emphatic about it. I don't think he'd place so much trust in someone who was "highly likely" to return to being a DE, even under the temptations of teaching DADA. While I wouldn't be at all surprised if DD thought teaching DADA could be tempting to Snape when he first started at Hogwarts, I don't think the degree of trust that DD seems to place in Snape 15 years later is compatible with the idea that he couldn't trust Snape to teach DADA without being tempted to rejoin LV.
Laura W - Apr 25, 2006 10:01 am (#1923 of 2969)
"Could someone clarify (my memory is failing me at the moment) as to whether there is canon regarding more specifically when the DADA curse came into effect?"
Not sure if this is what you want, HH11, but in HBP, chapter Lord Voldemort's Request, Tom applied for the position of DADA teacher at the age of 18 - right after he graduated from Hogwarts - but was turned down by Professor Dippet because he was too young. Ten years (?) later, he came back to ask for the job again. By this time, DD was headmaster. All of this DD tells Harry in this chapter, ending with (p. 418, Cdn. edition):
"Oh, he definitely wanted the Defence Against the Dark Arts job. The aftermath of our little meeting proved that. You see, we have never been able to keep a Defence Against the Dark Arts teacher for longer than a year since I refused the post to Lord Voldemort."
If this has nothing to do with your question, feel free to ignore it. (grin)
haymoni - Apr 25, 2006 10:16 am (#1924 of 2969)
There was that twitch - Harry wanted to reach out and warn Dumbledore as he watched the memory - I think Voldy had his wand in his pocket and cursed the job.
What a brat!
HungarianHorntail11 - Apr 25, 2006 10:16 am (#1925 of 2969)
wynnleaf, the way I remember it, someone had been passing secrets to Big V for quite some time.
Whether or not Snape knew the steps Big V intended to take, Snape was a factor in getting from one step to the next, all of the steps combined, being the "unison" which is why I noted "in a sense".
that after he joined Voldemort Magic Words, was that a pun??
We can't rule out some things that may transpire "off camera" Solitaire, as we learned from the "map" situation and some others where JKR figured we would assume he had retrieved it from the office after the year was over.
Yes, Laura, that is a big help, thanks!
With regard to whether or not Snape would slip back into the dark arts, it all depends upon how we each interpret what his convictions are and how strongly he would adhere to them. After all, in the end, that is what will lead us to the truth about him, won't it? Any hints, Gina?
Soul Search - Apr 25, 2006 10:27 am (#1926 of 2969)
In PoA, the shack scene, Sirius or Lupin accuses Wormtail that he had been passing information to Voldemort for over a year.
Gina R Snape - Apr 25, 2006 11:50 am (#1927 of 2969)
HH11, there are certain things a wife of a spy reader simply cannot know until it's all be written down in the history books.
I think Snape may still have a great interest in the dark arts for how they work. But I really don't see him relishing a return to working for the Dark Lord. He's just too smart to be taking orders from someone as unstable, capricious and unappreciative as Voldemort.
Soul Search - Apr 25, 2006 2:09 pm (#1928 of 2969)
Gina R Snape, good description: "unstable, capricious and unappreciative." It is my opinion Voldemort's nature, as you well described, is more the reason Snape went to Dumbledore, rather than anything having to do with Lily or the Potters.
Dumbledore's comment to Harry about Snape's remorse, while perhaps not an outright lie, was more in line of not revealing why he trusts Snape. He might have even been trying to give Harry a reason to trust or respect Snape (didn't work, of course.)
I have full confidence that your loyalty will be rewarded!
Laura W - Apr 25, 2006 2:48 pm (#1929 of 2969)
"There was that twitch - Harry wanted to reach out and warn Dumbledore as he watched the memory - I think Voldy had his wand in his pocket and cursed the job."
Excellent, haymoni! I didn't pick that up.
I assumed that when Tom's hand twitched towards his pocket and wand that he was considering hexing the headmaster and then changed his mind. But I'm sure you've got it right.
Laura
Gina R Snape - Apr 25, 2006 4:02 pm (#1930 of 2969)
I wonder how doe sone curse a position, since it is an abstract concept and not a tangible object. Alas, we know it is possible in some way.
Soul Search, are you suggesting the main reason Snape switched sides was because Voldemort is the way he is? It would certainly add credence to the Snape 'out for himself' argument.
Soul Search - Apr 25, 2006 4:34 pm (#1931 of 2969)
Not exactly. Voldemort did something that greatly angered Snape. Snape wants to defeat Voldemort. He resents Harry because the prophecy says Harry will defeat Voldemort. (I am optimistic.)
Magic Words - Apr 25, 2006 5:00 pm (#1932 of 2969)
"Voldemort did something that greatly angered Snape." -Soul Search
coughLilyPottercough*
I agree, Snape turned because he became seriously disillusioned - possibly with Voldemort's whole ideology but possibly just with Voldemort himself. He could resent Harry for robbing him of his chance at revenge, if that's what he wants, but IMO it's more because he feels that Harry isn't up to the task or isn't taking it seriously enough.
Choices - Apr 25, 2006 5:04 pm (#1933 of 2969)
Maybe Snape became disillusioned in much the same way that Regulus did, only Snape has been luckier (more clever). Regulus left and was killed, Snape "appears" to have stayed.
HungarianHorntail11 - Apr 25, 2006 5:24 pm (#1934 of 2969)
You all seem to have put a finger on something that may very well lie at the heart of his "falling out" with Big V.
Though the twitch seems very likely to have been the spell, the problem is that we can only speculate. Some have ventured to guess he was sending a horcrux spell to the hat, or some other relic. I agree with the curse, though.
winlia - Apr 25, 2006 6:52 pm (#1935 of 2969)
Gina,
You bring up a good point about LV. Given his disposition, it's a wonder anyone is following him. Not very high on charisma, is he?
wynnleaf - Apr 25, 2006 9:25 pm (#1936 of 2969)
Just a guess here, but I have felt that some, perhaps Lucius for instance, don't really want to continue to follow LV. But as we learn with Karkarov, there's no leaving LV. You don't just walk away. The DE's seem to have mostly joined as young men and women (Bella). But after that, LV's power and the overall intimidation and death threat of the group makes it impossible for a person to simply turn his/her back on LV, regardless of how obvious that instability, capriciousness, etc. becomes.
der 905 - Apr 25, 2006 10:53 pm (#1937 of 2969)
Edited Apr 25, 2006 11:58 pm
I always believed Lucius was happy to rejoin LV but Snape didn't know it. I think Snape really did consider Lucius a friend and felt he had changed his ways, and that was why he moved suddenly when Harry mentioned Malfoy in the end of GOF. It caught him by surprise and was probably about to speak in Malfoy's defense, but stopped himself, maybe remembering clues and hints Lucius had dropped giving himself away. Snape must have been very disappointed to find Lucius at the graveyard.
Saracene - Apr 26, 2006 4:32 am (#1938 of 2969)
Oh, I don't know; I think that Voldemort does possess a very twisted sort of charisma. Charisma is not about being nice or appreciative, it's just a personal quality. A leader can be cruel, capricious, merciless to his followers and still arouse awe, devotion and enthusiasm.
I tend to believe that if Snape did in fact switch sides he did it for the reasons Dumbledore mentioned and that the reason had all to do with the Prophecy and the Potters. If there's more to the story of Snape's return then I fully expect it to expand on what Dumbledore told Harry rather than something completely unrelated to it, like Snape's personal disillusionment with Voldemort or something along these lines.
rambkowalczyk - Apr 26, 2006 5:27 am (#1939 of 2969)
It was JKR that gave us the reason that Snape wasn't given the DADA job because it might tempt him. But I think in that same inteview she also said that this wasn't the real reason (or the whole story)--that telling us would give too much away.
I wonder if Voldemort was responsible for the death of his father. Snape joined the Death Eaters as a means of revenge -- to get closer to Voldemort and kill him. He may have been spying on Dumbledore on Voldemorts orders and told Voldemort what he heard so that he could be close enough to kill. But because Voldemort was a good Legilimens he saw through Snape. But rather than kill him, Voldemort decided he would be more useful alive and tempted him into being a true Death Eater. Maybe he appealed to Snape's desire for respect or revenge on James Potter.
Though this theory may be flawed it explains two things 1 why Snape would be tempted by the Dark Arts and 2 Dumbledore's statement in GOF that Snape rejoined our side.
Soul Search - Apr 26, 2006 6:38 am (#1940 of 2969)
Edited Apr 26, 2006 7:41 am
Magic Words,
I have never subscribed to any Snape/Lily relationship. It just seems out-of-character for both of them. Snape being into the dark arts would be a turn off for Lily and Lily being muggle born would turn Snape off.
I do like your statement "... it's more because he feels that Harry isn't up to the task or isn't taking it seriously enough." And, Snape has thought this since he first set eyes on Harry. His comments to Bellatrix in "Spinner's End" well express his opinions of Harry; you may have come up with the reason why.
der 905,
I don't think Lucius was at all pleased by Voldemort's actual return. Lucius had been doing quite well with his pockets full of gold. He had Fudge and the MoM eating out of his hand. In fact, it was Voldemort that got Lucius into Azkaban, where I think he is happy to stay, away from the Dark Lord.
I have wondered why Voldemort wanted to retrieve the prophecy. All someone had to do was smash it and watch Trelawney recite it. I wonder if Voldemort didn't set Lucius up to fail.
rambkowalczyk,
You have the right idea: "Snape joined the Death Eaters as a means of revenge -- to get closer to Voldemort and kill him." There has been some good discussion, including that Irma Pince (librarian) is really Snape's mother, in hiding. (Irma Pince = I'm a Prince) I couldn't find the discussion, though.
Problem is, however, that Dumbledore has stated Snape was remorseful over Lily and the Potters. Dumbledore doesn't lie, so whatever speculation has to fit.
"Journeymom, if I'm remembering correctly, it is Narcissa, not Snape, who claims that Snape is closest to Voldemort. I think."
That's right. Thanks. =)
Gina R Snape - Apr 23, 2006 5:57 pm (#1892 of 2969)
Well, I agree it is interesting that Pettigrew is at Spinner's End. But while he owes Harry a life debt, Snape does not. Snape owed James the life debt.
I think Voldemort wants Pettigrew and Snape to keep an eye on each other. It is a way to keep them both in check, with the added bonus that Snape can treat him like an animal for retribution. It is hard for us at this point to ever think of Pettigrew as one of the marauders, knowing both the relationship he had with the other 3 boys, and how he betrayed them. But Snape may still see him as an accomplice of his childhood torturers.
I think Snape wants Pettigrew around for tactical purposes. I think he knows Pettigrew owes Harry a life debt, and I think he will thrust Pettigrew into a situation to save Potter at the right moment at the end. This will not only help to save Harry's life, but will give Snape the opportunity to save Harry's life without giving his own hand away unles he absolutely has to.
der 905 - Apr 23, 2006 9:20 pm (#1893 of 2969)
I don't know how this got in my head, but I thought maybe Snape requested Wormtail so he could keep an eye on him; and if the opportunity presented itself, to torture him for enjoying what James and Sirius did to him. He certainly made him look and probably feel bad when Narcisa and Bellatrix where there.
haymoni - Apr 24, 2006 5:08 am (#1894 of 2969)
I think Voldy put them together because he doesn't trust either one - or ANYone, for that matter.
He knows Wormtail would "rat" out Snape in a heartbeat, just to secure his spot in the fold.
I think Voldy trusts Snape enough to tell him if Wormtail is faltering.
Solitaire - Apr 24, 2006 6:24 am (#1895 of 2969)
Edited Apr 24, 2006 7:29 am
I am way behind on this thread--about 50 posts--but a thought occurred to me as I was posting on another thread. It may have been thoroughly canvassed already, but I have missed many discussions on this thread at various times this year, due to the fact that it moves so quickly. Anyway, here goes ...
The more I think about it, the more I wonder if Snape was deliberately placed in the DADA position by Dumbledore in order to reveal information to Harry about Horcruxes. Surely anyone who is as knowledgeable about the Dark Arts as he has always been would know about them ... right? If Snape is a good guy--and I'm not yet conceding the point, Gina, just entertaining it --then what better way to ensure that Harry & Co. get all of the necessary information about Horcruxes and how to find and destroy them? It is a scary thought, because--if it is true--I do not see Harry taking any kind of instruction from Snape now. Dungbombs, anyone?
Solitaire
Soul Search - Apr 24, 2006 8:06 am (#1896 of 2969)
Solitaire, good thought. Why was Snape put in the DADA position? Just some thoughts:
Dumbledore well knew of Voldemort's curse on the DADA position, so assigning Snape to the position had to be with full knowledge of possible consequences. Maybe it was even part of some "grand plan" of Dumbledore's.
Dumbledore needed Slughorn at Hogwarts so Harry could get that memory from him. Slughorn was a potions master, so Snape had to give up the potions position. DADA was the only open position.
The OotP experience with Occulmency lessons should of shown Dumbledore that Snape teaching Harry anything was problematic. Indeed, Harry had trouble with non-verbal spells after Snape tried to teach it. Harry seemed to lose interest in DADA with Snape teaching it.
While Snape was very knowledgable in DADA, he is a poor teacher, especially to Harry. I saw no difference in the few classes we witnessed.
Still, maybe Harry did learn something from Snape that will be important in book seven. Clearly, Snape was trying to teach Harry, even as they dueled on the way out of Hogwarts. I took this to mean Snape actually wanted Harry to learn things he will need to survive.
I can't see how any of the few specific DADA spells mentioned could be applied to horcruxes. There is even some question if Snape knows about Voldemort's horcruxes. Suspicions, maybe, but knowing, probably not. On the other hand, Harry is going to need help with horcruxes; did Dumbledore mean for Snape to help?
Gina R Snape - Apr 24, 2006 8:43 am (#1897 of 2969)
Well, Solitaire, I'm happy to see you entertaining some thoughts.
I can't remember Snape teaching anything about horcruxes, though. I tend to agree with Soul Search. DD needed Slughorn at the school. Plus, I think he had his plan from the start, after Snape did the vow. He knew he'd be dead by the end of the school year and needed to strategically place Snape. He knew putting Snape in the DADA position would mean the end of him teaching at Hogwarts. Now all we have to do is waaaaiiiiit for this explanation to come out in the last book!
The One - Apr 24, 2006 9:07 am (#1898 of 2969)
I have always wonderedabout DD assigning anyone to the DADA postion when it is cursed.
I have no problems with the theory that DD assigned Snape to the position, as he knew he was going to die, and he set it up in a way that Snape escaped the school and joined LV in a way that would give LV very strong reasons to trust Snape.
But, does this mean that DD with open eyes sacrified one wizard a year to keep the school going?
When did Lord Voldemnort request the position? It must have been before the first war, that is it must be 15 years + duration of 1st war + some years ago. If the postion has been cursed for all those years, that is quite a number of teachers he has put at risk.
The One - Apr 24, 2006 9:28 am (#1899 of 2969)
As for the loyalties of Snape, I find it a bit lame if he is simply a death eater, and thats it. That is my feeling. I have two different imagfes of the ending for Snape.
1. I image an ending where Snape does help Harry to defeat the Dark Lord, and the vanishes.
And then it is left open if that is in order to return himself as the next Dark Lord in some years time, or if it really was loyal to Dumbledore all the time.
2. I imagine that SNape has somewhere a horcrux himself, and that he is immortal because of that. I imagine that he either was forced into making it or made it on his own accord and regrets it.
I imagine that in the final showdown SNape does help Harry in a crucial way, but is "killed" by LV. But, as there is a horcrux, he ends up as VaporSnape.
The final reconcilation between Harry and Snape will then be that Harry will fullfill Snapes wish, and destroy the horcrux, allowing Snape todie properly.
Just two wild ideas, but there you are.
journeymom - Apr 24, 2006 9:58 am (#1900 of 2969)
Two wild but interesting ideas!
Regarding Dd assigning anyone to the DADA position, I assumed (dangerous, that) it took him a few years of teachers being fired or injured or what not before he noticed the pattern. Then he inferred the post is cursed. However, do we know how long Quirrell had the post? Did he have the DADA job before he became Quirrellmort?
So yes, it seems to me Dd at least hired Quirrell, Lockhart, Lupin and Umbridge (blech) knowing they'd be out of a job somehow by year's end.
And it's possible that JKR simply overlooked the fact that there would be several DADA professors between the time Voldemort cursed the position and Harry's first year, when the story begins. I think she doesn't think those little facts through. But I'm also guessing the average 11 year old reader doesn't notice much less care about those niggling little facts, either.
Choices - Apr 24, 2006 9:59 am (#1901 of 2969)
I think we have yet to see the reason for Snape being given the DADA position played out. His teaching did not seem to contribute much to what happened in HBP and now it is ended - what good did it do for him to be the DADA teacher? He did not appear to teach the kids anything really important. Surely we will see what impact it had in the final book - I know there is more to it than meets the eye.
Die Zimtzicke - Apr 24, 2006 10:14 am (#1902 of 2969)
I agree that it's way too simplistic to just speculate on whether or not Snape is Dumbledore's man or Voldemort's man. I too think he's his own man, and will do what is best for him, or at least what will uphold the ideals he believes in the most.
Gina R Snape - Apr 24, 2006 10:17 am (#1903 of 2969)
You know, I am not so sure the cursed position was necessarily life-threatening. Just that whoever took the job would be out of a job at the end of the year.
With this in mind, it does make me think DD wasn't too overly worried about Umbridge. He knew she'd be gone by the end of the year. It was more a question of how much damage she could do between September and June. Now, it doesn't seem like people were knocking down doors for the DADA job. He had to go out begging people to be hired. I remember Hagrid saying Lockhart was the only one to apply for the position that particular year. It must have wrankled Snape to no end to see people coming and going, thinking he could do a better job of it. But I rather suspect when he finally did get the position, DD told him it was cursed and he'd be gone by the end of the year. Otherwise, that truly is a horrible way to treat/reward someone who has been in your service for so many years.
wynnleaf - Apr 24, 2006 12:51 pm (#1904 of 2969)
Edited Apr 24, 2006 1:54 pm
But I rather suspect when he finally did get the position, DD told him it was cursed and he'd be gone by the end of the year. Otherwise, that truly is a horrible way to treat/reward someone who has been in your service for so many years.
Gina, I imagine it was a bit like below:
From the various things DD and Severus said about when DD was injured by the ring horcrux, it looks like DD got injured by the ring horcrux (and saved by Severus) only days before the Spinners End vow. Then it would only have been a few days after that when DD sent a letter to Slughorn to get him to come back to Hogwarts. (If anyone wants my timeline reasoning with accompanying quotes, I'm happy to give it in another post.)
Anyway, I'd expect that Severus must have told DD immediately about the vow and DD starting writing to Slughorn about the potions position.
Why would he want Slughorn for potions, instead of looking for someone else to fill the DADA position? Simple.
1. He knew Snape was going to be gone at the end of the year regardless what he was teaching. 2. Snape is head of Slytherin, so he'd need new Slytherin head of house. The new head of Slytherin couldn't be the new DADA professor, since the position was cursed and whoever taught DADA would be gone by the end of the year. 3. DD wanted Slughorn anyway for the horcrux info.
So DD would more likely have told Snape about the curse and that since Snape was clearly only going to be around for one more year anyway, DD could give him the DADA position at last, without having to worry about the curse. Further, he could get Slughorn for potions, cover the question of a future head for Slytherin, get info on horcruxes from Slughorn, and protect Slughorn from LV.
If DD explained it that way to Snape, it wouldn't have been a terrible way to treat Snape. Instead, it would explain to him (if he didn't already know, and I'm betting he did know) about the curse, while giving him the DADA position at last, if only for a year.
Was Severus a better teacher in DADA? Hard to say. We learn very little about 6th year DADA classes. I don't actually see any evidence that Severus was a poor teacher that year (no positive evidence of being a good teacher either). All of the comments or descriptions we've got are from Harry's pov, or relating to things Harry said in class. I thought Harry's comments to Snape about the Inferi mostly deserved Snape's remarks -- about like explaining the difference between a zebra and a bear by saying "the zebra has stripes." We know Harry disagreed about something Snape said about repelling dementors. And we read about the first DADA class, where Harry thinks Severus sounds like he loves Dark Arts and speaks "caressingly" about them, but Hermione heard it differently and thought Snape sounded a lot like Harry. So really, we don't know much about how Snape taught, outside of Harry's by now strongly biased point of view.
Dobby Socks - Apr 24, 2006 12:56 pm (#1905 of 2969)
I also believe that the DADA position was cursed specifically meaning the teacher wouldn’t be able to return to it after the year was over, but not that it was necessarily dangerous. Quirrell, Lockhart, and Umbridge brought their problems on themselves. I’m sure Lupin was glad for the work, even if it was only for a year. There’s the whole “werewolf-outing” issue, but I’m sure that his condition would be quite difficult to hide in any regular job.
I do wonder how long Snape was actually aware of the curse. I suspect it was for longer than just the one year he spent teaching the subject. Apart from his statement in “Spinner’s End,” we know only through student rumor that he coveted the post (although his behavior at times certainly indicated that was the case). Also, the rumor that it was cursed was circulating among the students and most likely in the general community too, given that the position was so difficult to fill (or had DD simply run out of barely qualified candidates; that certainly seems the case when Umbridge was appointed).
Anyway, I’m speculating that he did want it, but was aware of the curse, which would justify DD not offering him the job, but would still irritate him greatly. But this anger would then be directed at LV, since he cursed it, not at DD. I’m sure that both DD and LV wouldn’t want him to take the position until it fit their ends. BTW, I don’t for a moment buy the explanation that DD refused Snape the position because he was afraid it would bring about a relapse. Perhaps for the first year or two, but certainly not after then. It sure did help to further muddy the evil guy / good guy issue at the end of HBP though. So it’s worked wonderfully for JKR.
The One - Apr 24, 2006 1:05 pm (#1906 of 2969)
Apart from his statement in “Spinner’s End,” we know only through student rumor that he coveted the post (although his behavior at times certainly indicated that was the case).
Snape also confirms this when Umbridge asks him during her inspection. So I think that Snape'sdesire to teach DADA may be considered a fact.
virginiaelizabeth - Apr 24, 2006 1:14 pm (#1907 of 2969)
Edited Apr 24, 2006 2:16 pm
I think DD never let Snape have the DADA job simply because it was cursed, and Snape was a loyal co-worker/friend and he didn't want to loose him as a teacher. I never thought it was because he thought it might make Snape have a relapse of his DE days.
Yes she asks him if its true that every year he applies for the DADA position and he says yes then the evil toad says something along the lines of "do you have any idea why he has never appointed you...?"
Dobby Socks - Apr 24, 2006 1:21 pm (#1908 of 2969)
Solitare,
Because we saw so little of Snape’s DADA classes, it’s difficult to assess his competence in the position. We know he was trying to teach the kids non-verbal spells, and assigned an essay on the best way to fight off dementors. Harry was finally able to perform a non-verbal spell (the HBP’s), but as far as we know he was unable to do so in class. Did he actually learn in class, but was unable to perform around Snape because his hatred for him consumed too much of Harry’s energy? Probably, since he has no problem learning from the HBP’s textbook. Hopefully, he retained some of this knowledge, as opposed to the text simply being a way for him to “cheat” in Potions.
I’m sure Snape didn’t teach the class about Horcruxes, after the emphasis put on the banned nature of disseminating Horcrux information at Hogwarts. But I think Snape’s role in the last book will be to help Harry, primarily with Horcruxes. I could be way off track, but that’s just my opinion.
… This was the other post I was writing, but Wynnleaf’s got it covered. Lol. So, um, I agree with Wynnleaf.
However, I do think the most pragmatic way to distinguish ghosts from inferi is to assess whether they’re solid or not. Thus, you know whether to get out of the way quickly or just not to worry about it. The added information is nice, but I’m not sure whether that’s what the person was asking for. Was the questioner rather dim, or just trying to waste class time? At any rate, it provided some great comic moments.
wynnleaf - Apr 24, 2006 1:35 pm (#1909 of 2969)
Edited Apr 24, 2006 2:36 pm
Thanks, Dobby Socks!
On inferi, it turned out that the difference between inferi and ghosts was quite important in HBP and had little to do with how they look. Harry discovered later that how inferi act and what repels them is a far greater difference than being able to not see through them. Sorry, I don't have the book in front of me. Perhaps the original question in the class was how did they look different from ghosts. But I had thought the question was what the difference was, in a more general sense.
Catherine - Apr 24, 2006 1:38 pm (#1910 of 2969)
Edited Apr 24, 2006 2:39 pm
But while he owes Harry a life debt, Snape does not. Snape owed James the life debt. --Gina
The forum has always enjoyed discussing various "inheritances." I suppose the issue of whether "the sins of the father" or the "what is owed Dad" passes to his child falls in the "I wonder" category.
In Harry's case, it does seem that he has "inherited" Snape's dislike of James, as well as James's dislike of Snape.
I did wonder, reading HbP, if Snape "owes" Harry still. To use Gina's word, that would rankle indeed.
Gina R Snape - Apr 24, 2006 1:41 pm (#1911 of 2969)
Edited Apr 24, 2006 2:43 pm
wynnleaf, your time line post is precisely how I see things as well. I was just too lazy to type it all out so thanks for sharing that!
And I love that line of Snape's. "Oh, very good Potter. . . Ghosts are transparent. It seemed to me that in the last book, the kids and Snape are more on level with each other. A lot of the kids seem to get his sarcasm and chuckle at his remarks, as might be expected of teenagers more than small children. And it was a really good point of example with how Hermione and Harry heard the DADA speech differently. Yet another way we can see our view of Snape as going through the "Harry filter."
ETA: Oh. I missed Catherine's post! I have always thought Snape felt a certain obligation as a result of the life debt. And I still think his switching to DD's side was partly because of that life debt. But it would really be a huge massive pain in the, er, wand, if life debts were passed on to children. I should think at some point it would get ridiculous and everyone would owe a life debt to someone.
Dobby Socks - Apr 24, 2006 1:51 pm (#1912 of 2969)
Wynnleaf,
Oops! You're quite right. I would assume if they're working for LV, they'd be in attack mode, but I'd completely forgotten about "The Cave." And that's a hard thing to do. Guess it goes to demonstrate what happens when you're too busy laughing to pay attention to Prof. Snape. I'd look up the question, but I think you're right about that too. Plus, it would add another 20 minutes or so to my posting time. Not wise when the thread is moving this fast.
winlia - Apr 24, 2006 3:18 pm (#1913 of 2969)
I considered Snape's attainment of the DADA position an indication that the situation with LV (and, in fact, the series of books) was drawing to a close.
It may be that if (when) LV is conquered, the position will no longer be cursed.
Magic Words - Apr 24, 2006 3:22 pm (#1914 of 2969)
I interpreted Snape's interference in the Quidditch match in PS/SS to mean that even if Snape owed Harry anything because of his life debt to James, it was no longer an issue. Dumbledore says Snape worked so hard to protect Harry because he wanted to be "even" with James for James saving his life. This could point to a magical life-debt, or it could be nothing more than his pride resenting the fact that he had owed James.
If the latter, could Harry owe Snape a life-debt?
journeymom - Apr 24, 2006 5:04 pm (#1915 of 2969)
Edited Apr 24, 2006 6:05 pm
I think the inherited life debt idea is horrible! Forgive me if anybody here is a big proponent. It's incredibly unjust. I like the idea that Snape had a Unbreakable Vow with the Potters to protect Harry. It has literary symmetry with his UV with Narcissa, and it's a more concrete reason for Dumbledore to trust Snape.
TheSaint - Apr 24, 2006 5:30 pm (#1916 of 2969)
Yes, I am not a big believer in inhereting someone else's life-debt. It was just something Snape felt he owed him, not something that had to be transferred.
HungarianHorntail11 - Apr 25, 2006 6:32 am (#1917 of 2969)
Edited Apr 25, 2006 7:49 am
I am still playing catch-up, but would like to toss out this thought. Regarding the Wormtail/Snape situation, it seems as though the last time they worked together, the Potters were killed. Remember, Snape revealed what he knew about the prophecy and Wormtail was the secret keeper, thereby working in unison (in a sense).
When Snape had a change of heart, (or so I think it went in this order), he knew, as a DE that one of the Marauders was a DE. He probably made the same mistake others (except Big V) made by overlooking Wormtail. He was right in not trusting Sirius, but wrong about the manner in which he was untrustworthy.
Solitaire, the one reason I cannot see that as the reason why DD put Snape into DADA for the reason you state is because I think, then, DD would not have felt it so important to "teach" him these things himself. DD gave him the info. regarding the horcruxes, I don't recall Snape as having given any horcrux info. to Harry.
I am wondering if it was only to give Snape what he has wanted all of those years and knew it was his last "hurrah". This would be a great implement in revealing to the reader that there was some level of knowing Snape would not make it to another year at HW.
Could someone clarify (my memory is failing me at the moment) as to whether there is canon regarding more specifically when the DADA curse came into effect? I had the impression that it was set in place with Quirrel. Of course, I've been wrong before.
EDIT: Thanks, Gina. The reason I question it is because I had the impression that Quirrel had been in that position for longer than one year before his hiatus. Perhaps that was even the reason for his temporary departure. I am now thoroughly confused.
Gina R Snape - Apr 25, 2006 6:39 am (#1918 of 2969)
Well according to the Lexicon timeline Riddle was turned down for the DADA job in 1955. I had the impression from the book that he cursed the position at that time. But I'd need to reread it.
wynnleaf - Apr 25, 2006 7:54 am (#1919 of 2969)
Edited Apr 25, 2006 8:56 am
DD told Harry that LV cursed the position immediately after DD showed Harry the pensieve memories regarding Riddle's visit to Hogwarts and his attempt to get a position teaching DADA. That certainly makes it seem as though LV placed the curse shortly after he was denied the position.
HH11, I'm not quite sure what you mean by Severus and Peter working in "unison." Severus heard the prophecy well before Harry's birth -- there was time for him to pass on the partial prophecy to LV, become aware that LV was targeting the Potters, become a spy, and still have been a spy for some time prior to LV's downfall as DD testified later. We don't know when Pettigrew turned to LV. It could have been only shortly before the Potter's deaths. We just don't know.
We also don't know that Snape actually knew that it was a Marauder that was a traitor. As I recall, Fudge in POA said that a spy had warned DD that LV was targeting the Potters. That would almost certainly have been Snape. Then Severus said that James had been warned (by Snape? or at Snape's advisement to DD?) to not use a Marauder as a secret keeper. But I don't think Snape had definite knowledge that it was one of the 3 other Marauders that was passing on info to LV. He apparently had evidence that someone was passing on information, but we don't know that he knew it was a Marauder.
Anyway, Severus turned toward the Order's side before the Potters went into hiding. Pettigrew helped LV find the Potters, but at the time Severus was working for DD.
Solitaire - Apr 25, 2006 8:01 am (#1920 of 2969)
HH, I do not think Snape did give info about Horcruxes--or, if he did, it was "off camera." I just was wondering if, perhaps, Dumbledore might have felt that Snape had the knowledge and ability to give the kids further information about these things, in the event that something should happen to himself. Perhaps he had not intended things to go down as they did, with Snape having to flee the school. As I said, it was just an idea ... but I thought it worth mentioning, even if it was discarded as not really viable.
Solitaire
Magic Words - Apr 25, 2006 9:19 am (#1921 of 2969)
I've heard it suggested that maybe Quirrell taught DADA for multiple years, but no two consecutive years. I also think it's possible that after he joined Voldemort, Voldemort exempted him from the curse.
I don't think DD had a huge ulterior motive for giving Snape the DADA job. He knew Snape would have to leave by the end of the year regardless, and he had always wanted the job, and it freed up Potions for Slughorn. IMHO, he wouldn't have given Snape the job for the sole purpose of recruiting Slughorn. Putting your double-agent in a cursed position is a pretty big risk. I wonder if Snape was partially telling the truth when he said DD feared the DADA job would tempt him back into his old ways. If a teacher was a former DE and something is definitely going to happen to him, reverting back to being a DE seems highly likely. It would be tempting fate, in a way.
wynnleaf - Apr 25, 2006 9:28 am (#1922 of 2969)
Magic Words,
While agree with the other points in your post, I don't really agree with this comment:
If a teacher was a former DE and something is definitely going to happen to him, reverting back to being a DE seems highly likely.
DD reiterates his trust in Severus in almost every book. With GOF on, he is pretty emphatic about it. I don't think he'd place so much trust in someone who was "highly likely" to return to being a DE, even under the temptations of teaching DADA. While I wouldn't be at all surprised if DD thought teaching DADA could be tempting to Snape when he first started at Hogwarts, I don't think the degree of trust that DD seems to place in Snape 15 years later is compatible with the idea that he couldn't trust Snape to teach DADA without being tempted to rejoin LV.
Laura W - Apr 25, 2006 10:01 am (#1923 of 2969)
"Could someone clarify (my memory is failing me at the moment) as to whether there is canon regarding more specifically when the DADA curse came into effect?"
Not sure if this is what you want, HH11, but in HBP, chapter Lord Voldemort's Request, Tom applied for the position of DADA teacher at the age of 18 - right after he graduated from Hogwarts - but was turned down by Professor Dippet because he was too young. Ten years (?) later, he came back to ask for the job again. By this time, DD was headmaster. All of this DD tells Harry in this chapter, ending with (p. 418, Cdn. edition):
"Oh, he definitely wanted the Defence Against the Dark Arts job. The aftermath of our little meeting proved that. You see, we have never been able to keep a Defence Against the Dark Arts teacher for longer than a year since I refused the post to Lord Voldemort."
If this has nothing to do with your question, feel free to ignore it. (grin)
haymoni - Apr 25, 2006 10:16 am (#1924 of 2969)
There was that twitch - Harry wanted to reach out and warn Dumbledore as he watched the memory - I think Voldy had his wand in his pocket and cursed the job.
What a brat!
HungarianHorntail11 - Apr 25, 2006 10:16 am (#1925 of 2969)
wynnleaf, the way I remember it, someone had been passing secrets to Big V for quite some time.
Whether or not Snape knew the steps Big V intended to take, Snape was a factor in getting from one step to the next, all of the steps combined, being the "unison" which is why I noted "in a sense".
that after he joined Voldemort Magic Words, was that a pun??
We can't rule out some things that may transpire "off camera" Solitaire, as we learned from the "map" situation and some others where JKR figured we would assume he had retrieved it from the office after the year was over.
Yes, Laura, that is a big help, thanks!
With regard to whether or not Snape would slip back into the dark arts, it all depends upon how we each interpret what his convictions are and how strongly he would adhere to them. After all, in the end, that is what will lead us to the truth about him, won't it? Any hints, Gina?
Soul Search - Apr 25, 2006 10:27 am (#1926 of 2969)
In PoA, the shack scene, Sirius or Lupin accuses Wormtail that he had been passing information to Voldemort for over a year.
Gina R Snape - Apr 25, 2006 11:50 am (#1927 of 2969)
HH11, there are certain things a wife of a spy reader simply cannot know until it's all be written down in the history books.
I think Snape may still have a great interest in the dark arts for how they work. But I really don't see him relishing a return to working for the Dark Lord. He's just too smart to be taking orders from someone as unstable, capricious and unappreciative as Voldemort.
Soul Search - Apr 25, 2006 2:09 pm (#1928 of 2969)
Gina R Snape, good description: "unstable, capricious and unappreciative." It is my opinion Voldemort's nature, as you well described, is more the reason Snape went to Dumbledore, rather than anything having to do with Lily or the Potters.
Dumbledore's comment to Harry about Snape's remorse, while perhaps not an outright lie, was more in line of not revealing why he trusts Snape. He might have even been trying to give Harry a reason to trust or respect Snape (didn't work, of course.)
I have full confidence that your loyalty will be rewarded!
Laura W - Apr 25, 2006 2:48 pm (#1929 of 2969)
"There was that twitch - Harry wanted to reach out and warn Dumbledore as he watched the memory - I think Voldy had his wand in his pocket and cursed the job."
Excellent, haymoni! I didn't pick that up.
I assumed that when Tom's hand twitched towards his pocket and wand that he was considering hexing the headmaster and then changed his mind. But I'm sure you've got it right.
Laura
Gina R Snape - Apr 25, 2006 4:02 pm (#1930 of 2969)
I wonder how doe sone curse a position, since it is an abstract concept and not a tangible object. Alas, we know it is possible in some way.
Soul Search, are you suggesting the main reason Snape switched sides was because Voldemort is the way he is? It would certainly add credence to the Snape 'out for himself' argument.
Soul Search - Apr 25, 2006 4:34 pm (#1931 of 2969)
Not exactly. Voldemort did something that greatly angered Snape. Snape wants to defeat Voldemort. He resents Harry because the prophecy says Harry will defeat Voldemort. (I am optimistic.)
Magic Words - Apr 25, 2006 5:00 pm (#1932 of 2969)
"Voldemort did something that greatly angered Snape." -Soul Search
coughLilyPottercough*
I agree, Snape turned because he became seriously disillusioned - possibly with Voldemort's whole ideology but possibly just with Voldemort himself. He could resent Harry for robbing him of his chance at revenge, if that's what he wants, but IMO it's more because he feels that Harry isn't up to the task or isn't taking it seriously enough.
Choices - Apr 25, 2006 5:04 pm (#1933 of 2969)
Maybe Snape became disillusioned in much the same way that Regulus did, only Snape has been luckier (more clever). Regulus left and was killed, Snape "appears" to have stayed.
HungarianHorntail11 - Apr 25, 2006 5:24 pm (#1934 of 2969)
You all seem to have put a finger on something that may very well lie at the heart of his "falling out" with Big V.
Though the twitch seems very likely to have been the spell, the problem is that we can only speculate. Some have ventured to guess he was sending a horcrux spell to the hat, or some other relic. I agree with the curse, though.
winlia - Apr 25, 2006 6:52 pm (#1935 of 2969)
Gina,
You bring up a good point about LV. Given his disposition, it's a wonder anyone is following him. Not very high on charisma, is he?
wynnleaf - Apr 25, 2006 9:25 pm (#1936 of 2969)
Just a guess here, but I have felt that some, perhaps Lucius for instance, don't really want to continue to follow LV. But as we learn with Karkarov, there's no leaving LV. You don't just walk away. The DE's seem to have mostly joined as young men and women (Bella). But after that, LV's power and the overall intimidation and death threat of the group makes it impossible for a person to simply turn his/her back on LV, regardless of how obvious that instability, capriciousness, etc. becomes.
der 905 - Apr 25, 2006 10:53 pm (#1937 of 2969)
Edited Apr 25, 2006 11:58 pm
I always believed Lucius was happy to rejoin LV but Snape didn't know it. I think Snape really did consider Lucius a friend and felt he had changed his ways, and that was why he moved suddenly when Harry mentioned Malfoy in the end of GOF. It caught him by surprise and was probably about to speak in Malfoy's defense, but stopped himself, maybe remembering clues and hints Lucius had dropped giving himself away. Snape must have been very disappointed to find Lucius at the graveyard.
Saracene - Apr 26, 2006 4:32 am (#1938 of 2969)
Oh, I don't know; I think that Voldemort does possess a very twisted sort of charisma. Charisma is not about being nice or appreciative, it's just a personal quality. A leader can be cruel, capricious, merciless to his followers and still arouse awe, devotion and enthusiasm.
I tend to believe that if Snape did in fact switch sides he did it for the reasons Dumbledore mentioned and that the reason had all to do with the Prophecy and the Potters. If there's more to the story of Snape's return then I fully expect it to expand on what Dumbledore told Harry rather than something completely unrelated to it, like Snape's personal disillusionment with Voldemort or something along these lines.
rambkowalczyk - Apr 26, 2006 5:27 am (#1939 of 2969)
It was JKR that gave us the reason that Snape wasn't given the DADA job because it might tempt him. But I think in that same inteview she also said that this wasn't the real reason (or the whole story)--that telling us would give too much away.
I wonder if Voldemort was responsible for the death of his father. Snape joined the Death Eaters as a means of revenge -- to get closer to Voldemort and kill him. He may have been spying on Dumbledore on Voldemorts orders and told Voldemort what he heard so that he could be close enough to kill. But because Voldemort was a good Legilimens he saw through Snape. But rather than kill him, Voldemort decided he would be more useful alive and tempted him into being a true Death Eater. Maybe he appealed to Snape's desire for respect or revenge on James Potter.
Though this theory may be flawed it explains two things 1 why Snape would be tempted by the Dark Arts and 2 Dumbledore's statement in GOF that Snape rejoined our side.
Soul Search - Apr 26, 2006 6:38 am (#1940 of 2969)
Edited Apr 26, 2006 7:41 am
Magic Words,
I have never subscribed to any Snape/Lily relationship. It just seems out-of-character for both of them. Snape being into the dark arts would be a turn off for Lily and Lily being muggle born would turn Snape off.
I do like your statement "... it's more because he feels that Harry isn't up to the task or isn't taking it seriously enough." And, Snape has thought this since he first set eyes on Harry. His comments to Bellatrix in "Spinner's End" well express his opinions of Harry; you may have come up with the reason why.
der 905,
I don't think Lucius was at all pleased by Voldemort's actual return. Lucius had been doing quite well with his pockets full of gold. He had Fudge and the MoM eating out of his hand. In fact, it was Voldemort that got Lucius into Azkaban, where I think he is happy to stay, away from the Dark Lord.
I have wondered why Voldemort wanted to retrieve the prophecy. All someone had to do was smash it and watch Trelawney recite it. I wonder if Voldemort didn't set Lucius up to fail.
rambkowalczyk,
You have the right idea: "Snape joined the Death Eaters as a means of revenge -- to get closer to Voldemort and kill him." There has been some good discussion, including that Irma Pince (librarian) is really Snape's mother, in hiding. (Irma Pince = I'm a Prince) I couldn't find the discussion, though.
Problem is, however, that Dumbledore has stated Snape was remorseful over Lily and the Potters. Dumbledore doesn't lie, so whatever speculation has to fit.
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Gina R Snape - Apr 26, 2006 6:49 am (#1941 of 2969)
I agree about Lucius, that he was not overjoyed at the return of Voldemort. I think Snape knows exactly how oily Lucius is, and how comfortable and influential a life he held until the Dark Lord's return. And I think he knew full well that one does not simply "not show up" without an ironclad excuse. Perhaps his sudden movement was a startled realisation that the event really happened. It was a 'telling' sudden move, we just don't know WHAT Snape was telling in it!
Die Zimtzicke - Apr 26, 2006 9:20 am (#1942 of 2969)
I doubt if Dumbledore refused the DADA job to Snape because it was cursed. I think it was because he was too involved with the Dark Arts as it was, It would have been too risky for him to get into at that time.
Quirrell had the job for a year, went away, and then came back, did he not? (I often wonder if Dumbledore sent him away to get practical experince and then regretted it.) I'm sure Snape could have had it for year, then gone back to Potions, then back to DADA if it had been necessary.
As for what pushed him away from Voldemort, I do think he got disillusioned like Regulus. Maybe someone found out he was a half-blood and threatened to tell? That could explain whey he wound up being called Lucius' lapdog. Maybe Lucius was blackmailing him. I am also completely against the Snape/Lily romance/crush thing. If that's what is it, I'll be shocked. If Snape had come over to Dumbledore AFTER Lily was killed, I'd be more inclined to look at it further, but I'm not fond of that theory personally as things stand.
wynnleaf - Apr 26, 2006 10:40 am (#1943 of 2969)
Die Zimtzicke,
Your argument seems to assume that DD could pick and choose the manner in which DADA teachers lost their DADA position after a year. In fact, that wasn't the case. Quirrell's "departure" wasn't planned by DD, nor was Lockharts, or Lupin's. Moody may have only planned to teach one year, but the manner of his leaving Hogwarts (having been kidnapped basically and imprisoned for 9 months) was certainly not the way DD had planned for him to leave. And Umbridge may or may not have been intended to stay for just 1 year. But DD didn't get to plan the manner of her leaving either.
It would have been dangerous to put Snape into the position simply assuming that the manner of his fulfilling the curse by leaving the position after a year could be managed according to some safe plan of simply shifting him back to the potions position.
Solitaire - Apr 26, 2006 12:32 pm (#1944 of 2969)
Edited Apr 26, 2006 1:57 pm
I think Umbridge certainly had bigger plans in store for herself than one single year as Hogwarts' DADA teacher. I suspect she planned to become the Head of the school and completely revamp it in her own warped, twisted, toad-like image.
Dumbledore seemed less than enthusiastic to have Umbridge at Hogwarts, given her penchant for usurping his authority (as if she really could). I even suspect that, in her case, he took a perverse kind of comfort in the longstanding "jinx," don't you?
Solitaire
wynnleaf - Apr 26, 2006 1:39 pm (#1945 of 2969)
I even suspect that, in her case, he took a perverse kind of comfort in the longstanding "jinx," don't you?
I bet he did! I wonder why Harry never wonders about why DD put Snape in the DADA position knowing it was cursed?
Gina R Snape - Apr 26, 2006 4:43 pm (#1946 of 2969)
Solitaire, I absolutely agree DD must have taken some perverse pleasure in that. I wonder if he spent any time amusing himself with what horrible scenario was coming to unseat her!
wynnleaf, Harry is so frustratingly unanalytical at times. There's a LOT he never wonders about that makes me crazy. And I completely agree that it was waaay too dangerous to play with fate regarding the curse and that position. Anyway, DD needed to be absolutely certain Snape was around for a period of time. Keeping him in Potions was one way to do that.
Soul Search - Apr 26, 2006 4:59 pm (#1947 of 2969)
Placing Snape in the DADA position would have given some reason for him leaving Hogwarts, to be closer to Voldemort. Was that the original reason for giving Snape the DADA job? Some part of Dumbledore's "grand plan" that required Snape close to Voldemort?
The tower scene and Snape AKing Dumbledore couldn't have been part of an overall plan. Seems a stretch, anyway.
So, what is Snape to do, being so close to Voldemort?
Gina R Snape - Apr 26, 2006 6:47 pm (#1948 of 2969)
Snape claims he was directed by Voldemort to work for DD teaching at Hogwarts. And he applied for the DADA position. I wonder if he was initially directed to apply for the DADA position. Then Voldemort would be able to test and see if his curse on the position was still on, and could have Snape there for just one year. But why would Voldemort want Snape at Hogwarts for only one year?
Die Zimtzicke - Apr 26, 2006 7:30 pm (#1949 of 2969)
I'm not assuming Dumbledore was picking and choosing how the teachers left. I'm just saying we have no idea of what happened to any teacher from the time the curse was placed up until the time that Harry started school. They couldn't possibly have all died, in my opinion. They could have left for a variety of reasons, and some of them could certainly have worked a year, gone away for a year, and come back. We have absolutely no canon evidence that they couldn't. We know Quirrell was there and then went away for a year.
Maybe Dumbledore sent him away before the school year actually ended, maybe as soon as testing was over, to keep the curse from striking him. We don't know.
Heck, two of the teachers could have alternated the jobs for years, for that matter. We don't know any differently. If they all died for twenty years straight or so, the curse would have been much more widely known or at least suspected. Snape could well have taught for a year, then left the position and taken it again at a later date, if he had not had to flee as I see it.
From 1955 until Harry started school is an awfully long time. I know, because I was born in 1955, and believe me, I feel old on a regular basis. LOL!
winlia - Apr 26, 2006 7:44 pm (#1950 of 2969)
I like the idea that Snape's break from LV was because he lost someone, possibly a parent. Or, he may have coaxed a friend or girlfriend (or potential girlfriend) into joining the DE's only to have him or her fall out of favor with LV and be killed.
I agree that Snape and Lily seem an unlikely pair, and I think his involvement in her and James' deaths is murky at best. Maybe he is less culpable than he seems at first blush.
Also, when speaking of Snape's greatest regret, DD didn't finish his sentence. I think the regret is something other than the death of the Potters. DD may have been on the verge of telling Harry that Snape lost someone too.
wynnleaf - Apr 27, 2006 9:19 am (#1951 of 2969)
Edited Apr 27, 2006 10:20 am
I'd like to put a question to everyone that's a change of subject (sorry), but I wanted to ask this while there are plenty of people reading this thread. Things had been slow awhile back, and now that people are here, I want to ask this.
Recently I've been hearing from a number of people who like the Snape character and are really concerned about what JKR has done with the character at the end of HBP.
At first, when people were saying they were distressed by what happened with Snape in HBP, I assumed it was because many people had previously liked Snape, but now thought JKR was setting him up to be the Traitor. As I have come to understand some of these fans more, though, I realize that's not the concern for many.
I've noticed, in other forums and particularly among fan fic writers, a real belief that JKR dislikes Snape's character and, while keeping him on DD's side, has placed Snape by the end of HBP in a completely untenable situation from which the only way out is a tragic death.
The people I've noticed with these feelings see Snape as definitely on the Order's side, and therefore in a position of carrying out the most dangerous aspects of the Order's missions, while having no friends or those who trust him other than DD who he has now had to kill. These fans see Snape's character as one with a difficult and unhappy past who is regardless still trying to serve the Light in a basically thankless and friendless atmosphere (except for DD), and who has now been put by JKR a position of being opposed by practically all. That is, DE's are suspicious of him, Order members and ministry officials believe he's a murderer, Hogwarts staff and students think he's a murderer, and the only one who might feel positively toward him, LV, is actually his primary enemy.
What I sense in many of these fans is a sadness and a bit of a hopeless feeling about Book 7 (as regards Snape's character). It's not just that people are concerned with JKR killing him off. I think it's that people are concerned that JKR will not allow the character any personal resolution or peace. This is just my sense. I don't think I've seen anyone articulate it as such.
When DD died (if he died), there was really not much sense of tragedy. Death is the next adventure for him, he had a full life with many who loved him, etc. etc. Lots of readers were sad to see him go, but it's not so much sad for DD, as sad to see him go.
When Sirius died, he had not been exonerated publicly and he was feeling depressed by being at 12 Grimauld Place. But he did have friends who knew the truth and accepted and loved him. His death, while sad and tragic to a degree, doesn't present the same sort of hopelessness that I sense in the expectations of many Snape fans.
Personally, I don't feel quite this sense of sadness about the end of HBP. I loved HBP and have greater hopes about how JKR will handle Book 7.
For the first months after HBP, most Snape fans spent a lot of time arguing for why Snape was really on the good side. That pretty much took up all the attention when fans discussed Snape.
Now, as I sense a degree of frustration from Snape fans about the situation at the end of HBP and the possibilities of what JKR is doing with the character, I'd really love to hear from people on the Lexicon Forum.
Those of you who think Snape is not Evil, and probably not out for himself alone -- do you relate to these other fans and their feeling that JKR dislikes the character? Do you feel that she's willing to leave the character in terrible circumstances permenantly -- only to be released by a tragic death?
Or something completely different?
Just very curious.
Just for the record, I don't have the same feelings about HBP, Snape's future in book 7, and JKR as these other Snape fans that I mention. But I'm very interested in how others feel about it.
wynnleaf
haymoni - Apr 27, 2006 9:25 am (#1952 of 2969)
There was a quote from JKR where she basically said Draco was awful, blah, blah, blah and she feared for the little girls who seemed to like him as a character. She did, however, say that Tom Felton had a lot to do with that.
Dumbledore compares Harry's relationship with Draco to that of James & Snape.
Does Dumbledore speak for JKR as well?
If that is the case, then Snape is just as despicable as Draco.
I'm not saying that he is, Gina...I'm just saying that if JKR has set up this comparison, we have to wonder about it.
wynnleaf - Apr 27, 2006 9:51 am (#1953 of 2969)
Dumbledore compares Harry's relationship with Draco to that of James & Snape.
I just read that passage today. DD said Snape's dislike of James was much like Harry and Draco. I suppose it depends on which one he meant, or even if he meant a specific correlation Harry=James, or Harry=Snape. I always thought James in the pensieve scene seemed a bit more like Draco, even if he did turn out okay in the end. Certainly there are more parallels of Harry to Snape than to his dad.
DD "speaks" for JKR sometimes. But DD also trusts Snape.
Laura W - Apr 27, 2006 10:14 am (#1954 of 2969)
Edited Apr 27, 2006 11:16 am
Die Zimtzicke wrote, "They could have left for a variety of reasons, and some of them could certainly have worked a year, gone away for a year, and come back. We have absolutely no canon evidence that they couldn't. We know Quirrell was there and then went away for a year."
Now that I think about it, it really bothers me that Quirrell was able to teach DADA more than one year. Yeah, I know it was not two consecutive years but, to me, it still seems to go against the curse put on that position.
DD says in HBP, "You see, we have never been able to keep a Defence Against the Dark Arts teacher for longer than a year since I refused the post to Lord Voldemort." He doesn't say "for longer than one year in a row"; he says "for longer than one year."
I don't know, maybe I'm splitting hairs - welcome to Lexicon (ha, ha)! ... but it almost seems like - dare I say it? - a mistake on Jo's part to either allow Quirrell to teach again in PS or to not have DD say "one consecutive year" in HBP.
Anyway, I just thought I would just voice my feelings on this before continuing on with the most interesting subject wynnleaf has raised in #1951.
Laura
Solitaire - Apr 27, 2006 10:18 am (#1955 of 2969)
Edited Apr 27, 2006 11:53 am
That's the trouble--isn't it, Haymoni?--with putting likeable actors in rotten roles. I must say, though, that I forget how much I love Alan Rickman when I watch any of the HP movies. He is able to transcend his natural charm for this role. Perhaps it is because of the hair and makeup he wears for Snape, but I just see none of Rickman in Snape.
Solitaire
K Stahl - Apr 27, 2006 12:38 pm (#1956 of 2969)
Perhaps Voldemort lifted the curse for Quirrell's second year.
Laura W - Apr 27, 2006 1:04 pm (#1957 of 2969)
Edited Apr 27, 2006 2:08 pm
And then put it back on again? Hmmm. Well, we have no canon for your theory but it does make sense in its way. Having found an insider at Hogwarts whose body (and mind) he could inhabit, it would be to the unformed-Voldemort's great advantage to temporarily lift the curse this one time.
As V says of Quirrell in GoF, chapter The Death Eaters, p. 567 (Raincoast): "... he was easy to bend to my will ... he brought me back to this country, and after a while, I took possession of his body, to supervise him closely as he carried out my orders. ..."
The orders were, of course, to steal the Philosopher's Stone which was, as it happens, located in the school in which Quirrell taught. And Quirrell had to be there to steal it.
Ok, Situ, I think you might have just gotten Jo off the hook, a la Marcus Flint (grin).
Thanks
Laura
K Stahl - Apr 27, 2006 2:35 pm (#1958 of 2969)
Edited Apr 27, 2006 3:41 pm
Or, perhaps Dumbledore's mention of the DADA position being cursed was metaphoric.
Or, perhaps it was just and example of Dumbledore humor. He was having trouble keeping the position filled.
Catherine - Apr 27, 2006 3:09 pm (#1959 of 2969)
Edited Apr 27, 2006 4:14 pm
Or, perhaps it was just and example of Dumbledore humor. He was having trouble keeping the position filled.
Dumbledore does jest, but I do think he spoke the literal truth about the Dark Arts position. It has been alluded to for years that the position was cursed, and once I read HbP, I was convinced.
Professor Snape (nods to Gina about the use of "Professor") has the cerebral savvy to infer what taking the DA job might mean. Choices ARE the key in this series, and Dumbledore's and Snape's choices will out-like Aunt Marge said about "blood" in the Azkaban film (and no, films are NOT canon).
Phew. That was a mouthful, and I'm sleepy...And I have to watch Joepardy! before I sleep.... ZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzZzzzzzzzzzzzzz
winlia - Apr 27, 2006 3:37 pm (#1960 of 2969)
Wynnleaf
I think you read my mind, although I don't think as clearly or elegantly as you write.
I wasn't worried about Snape dying until I started reading these fan posts. In my mind, the only really bad thing he's done is telling the prophecy, and I don't think we have the complete story on that yet. A lot has been written on this thread about Snape needing redemption, but I think he needs to catch a break (or two) in his life.
My sense, when I finished book 6, was that he was likely to be rewarded in 7. After all, he's been risking death while spying, and I suspect killing DD was more a sacrifice than a sin on Snape's part. Also, as I wrote in a much earlier post, JLR seems to be rewarding the less socially-adept kids, and punishing the popular ones. Neville and Luna seem to be coming into their own, and Lily, James, and Sirius are dead. I don't think that JKR dislikes Snape, but she does go hard on bullies. Dudley and Uncle Vernon have no redeeming characteristics.
JRK has written Snape quite sympathetically, given the pensive scenes.
As fond as I am of the fictional Snape, I think JKR did make a valid point when she spoke of him and Draco. Given the way they relate to others, they wouldn't make ideal husbands. (My apologies, Gina.) Given that this is fiction, they may change, but in real life the prospects for a true change of character wouldn't be so good. JRK's younger female readers may not understand this.
rambkowalczyk - Apr 27, 2006 3:53 pm (#1961 of 2969)
Edited Apr 27, 2006 4:56 pm
Those of you who think Snape is not Evil, and probably not out for himself alone -- do you relate to these other fans and their feeling that JKR dislikes the character? Do you feel that she's willing to leave the character in terrible circumstances permanently -- only to be released by a tragic death? -Wynnleaf
As I try to type an answer I realize I'm not sure of the question. I think JKR has empathy for Snape. Whereas she may want to do lunch with Sirius or Dumbledore she may pass up the invitation from Snape. In spite of that I think she will give the readers his side of the story.
Wasn't quite sure about what you meant about 'leaving the character in terrible circumstances permanently.' Are you talking about guilt about killing Dumbledore or forever carrying a grudge against the Potter family.
What is tragic death? Is a tragic death one where he dies saving Harry or one where he is accidentally killed by an Auror after he explains to Harry what he was really doing or one where he dies still hating Harry maybe even saving Harry's life in the process?
Does Snape have to die? Wynnleaf, I think it was you who said something to the effect about the moral message about mercy killing or trying to explain to children that it is ok to kill if the victim demands it. In light of that sentiment, if Snape killed Dumbledore because Dumbledore ordered it, Snape will die.
BUT the tragic death doesn't have to happen or if it does it can happen to Peter Pettigrew. If Snape is to be redeemed it would be one of three ways. 1 He killed Dumbledore by accident and is truly sorry but instead of wallowing in his guilt he chooses to help Harry. 2 He killed Dumbledore to prevent him from becoming an inferi (or some other thing worse that death. 3 Dumbledore isn't dead. If Snape is redeemed he doesn't have to die.
Regarding Quirrel This is from Book 1 Diagon Alley. poor bloke. Brilliant mind. He was fine while he was studyin'outta books but then he took a year off ter get some first hand experience... They say he met vampires in the Black Forest,
If I want to be nitpicky, Hagrid could have meant that Quirrel was suppose to teach the year before, but decided to postpone it to get first hand experience.
Magic Words - Apr 27, 2006 4:34 pm (#1962 of 2969)
Edited Apr 27, 2006 5:36 pm
Wynnleaf, I'm one of those people who don't think Snape is evil and are concerned about his character's personal resolution, as you put it. I wouldn't say I'm distressed, though. I trust JKR to do her characters justice. I have heard (read, rather) her saying in interviews that Snape is not a nice person, you shouldn't love him, etc., but she also says he's one of her favorite characters to write. She's also made him more sympathetic as the series goes on (you simply do not put a character in as much pain as a yelping, howling dog in a burning house behind him, and then write him off) so I think that when she says she doesn't like him, what she means is that she wouldn't like to know him personally and not that she thinks he deserves to suffer without some kind of recompensation. My biggest worry about Snape is that he will die before he and Harry come to some understanding (note that I didn't say friendship, necessarily) and Harry will have to settle for forgiving him posthumously.
One more thing: I've been assuming Snape will die because I just can't think of anything else for him to do after the war ends. He'd have a lot of trouble finding a place in the Wizarding World again. Does anyone have other ideas about what might happen to him?
journeymom - Apr 27, 2006 4:52 pm (#1963 of 2969)
"As fond as I am of the fictional Snape, I think JKR did make a valid point when she spoke of him and Draco. Given the way they relate to others, they wouldn't make ideal husbands. (My apologies, Gina.) Given that this is fiction, they may change, but in real life the prospects for a true change of character wouldn't be so good. JRK's younger female readers may not understand this. "
Absolutely. That's my impressions as well. Wasn't JK Rowling's first marriage rather rocky? It's easy for young women to be enamoured with 'bad boys' and think they'll change them. And time and again, this does not bear out. She blames some of the situation of Alan Rickman and Tom Felton.
When I finished HBP I concluded immediately that Snape will die sometime in Book 7. It's time for that generation's saga to end. Draco will live and hopefully lead a different life.
I'm ready and willing to accept whatever JKR throws us regarding Snape, but that doesn't mean I'll be happy with it. (I'm in the Snape is good camp.)
wynnleaf - Apr 27, 2006 5:35 pm (#1964 of 2969)
Edited Apr 27, 2006 6:37 pm
Magic Words, I think I tend to have your same perspective on the future of the character.
rambkowalczyk, I need to answer a few of your comments.
Wasn't quite sure about what you meant about 'leaving the character in terrible circumstances permanently.' Are you talking about guilt about killing Dumbledore or forever carrying a grudge against the Potter family.
I was talking about the views of some very pro-Snape readers. By "terrible circumstances," I meant that if Snape AK'd DD for some legitimately "good reason" (for instance, to keep him from becoming an inferi), then he's one of the most courageous of the Order, yet is now in this position that's even worse than Sirius' -- absolutely no one to trust or who trusts him, wanted as a murderer, no friends to reconcile with (if DD's dead), basically a dismal past with no future. Yet at the same time being this very heroic character. Hey, that's pretty tragic, don't you think?
What is tragic death? Is a tragic death one where he dies saving Harry or one where he is accidentally killed by an Auror after he explains to Harry what he was really doing or one where he dies still hating Harry maybe even saving Harry's life in the process?
Certainly there's tragedy there. But for a literary character, it's even more tragic if the character never finds some resolution or peace to his conflicted circumstances. Characters, especially the most conflicted ones, tend to beg for growth and resolution to the conflict (their personal conflict). I think many Snape fans are unsure that this will ever happen. Of course, he's not the main character, but he is apparently one of the characters with the highest amount of conflict.
Wynnleaf, I think it was you who said something to the effect about the moral message about mercy killing or trying to explain to children that it is ok to kill if the victim demands it. In light of that sentiment, if Snape killed Dumbledore because Dumbledore ordered it, Snape will die.
Yes, that was me and a big reason why I don't think DD is properly dead. But that's another topic.
Magic Words - Apr 27, 2006 5:39 pm (#1965 of 2969)
"It's time for that generation's saga to end." -Journeymom
Poor Tonks . But as much as I hate to say it, you may have a point. So Snape dies and Draco can finish what he began by helping Harry unify the four houses.
TheSaint - Apr 27, 2006 7:16 pm (#1966 of 2969)
Jo's comments always led me to believe that the deal Dumbledore has with Snape is sort of a 'lesser of two evils.'
Snape pulling the biggest coup in the history of the wizarding world, by defeating the most powerful dark one with cunning and bravery. Most families, like the Blacks, agreed with the premise but not the tactics of Voldemort..he goes to far. Sort of like the difference between the mafia of old and the evil we have now. Where the mafia did horrible things..it was contained within thier own ranks, thier own organizations, sort of an evil honor code. Now we have evil that has no bounds, innocent and guilty alike are at its mercy.
Should Snape survive I would expect he would be the next Dark Lord, just how dark is to be seen.
Just one of many theories..lol.
Nathan Zimmermann - Apr 27, 2006 7:31 pm (#1967 of 2969)
I found it quite interesting that in the guise of the Half Blood Prince, Snape was able to successfully teach Harry. This would seem to indicate that Snape is capable teaching Harry at least indirectly. After, he finds out the Potions book belonged to Severus, Harry calls the book evil. However, with the possible exception of Sectumsempra none of the spells demonstrated in the book rises to level of malice that was involved in the creation of Tom Riddle's diary.
Dobby Socks - Apr 27, 2006 7:53 pm (#1968 of 2969)
Wynnleaf,
Wow. I could write a major essay in response. But I promise not to. LOL. Incidentally, after finishing HBP, I e-mailed the friend who got me hooked with a list of the 3 majors most likely to die in #7: 1.) Voldemort 2.) Snape 3.) Harry. So I haven’t held out much hope for Snape’s survival since before I started reading the message boards.
In a nutshell, I’m a bit worried, but not primarily about the outcome you stated. Not that I want to see Severus die universally hated and/or without “any personal resolution or peace,” but, if Jo wants to write such a tragic figure, that’s her decision (obviously), and I think that doing this would have some literary merit. What I’m most worried about is her not giving sufficient space to his “redemption”. Actually, because I consider him a key character, what I’m most worried about is her not giving him sufficient space to occupy that role. If that makes sense. So, yes, I want the very lengthy version of the book.
I’m aware that JKR has made some negative comments about Snape, but (as I stated in an earlier post) I think she likes the character more than she lets on. She seems to me to have invested a lot in creating & developing the Snape character, as well as eventually making him a more sympathetic character. And, yes, I agree that her Draco/Severus comment was meant to advise girls against falling into the so called “bad-boy syndrome.” Additionally, I’m not going to go so far as to state that she purposefully uses misdirection as a tactic in her interviews, but I would think that sometimes something beyond “no comment” is warranted if you intend to leave any suspense.
Winlia wrote: “A lot has been written on this thread about Snape needing redemption, but I think he needs to catch a break (or two) in his life.”
I love this statement, Winlia. This morning, I read Gina’s “Meditation with Flies” story for the first time and I was getting teary (and you just iced the cake with that last line, Gina.) This Severus Snape stuff is really getting under my skin. Anyone know a good psychiatrist who’s also a HP fan (so I won’t have to explain having fictional-character issues)?
winlia - Apr 27, 2006 7:59 pm (#1969 of 2969)
"It's time for that generation's saga to end." -Journeymom
Given that I'm quite a bit older than Severus/James/Remus et.al, I'd like to think that the saga will go on for a few more decades! But you're probably right, Journeymom.
Maybe I'm just looking for excuses for Snape to survive, but I'm not sure that his killing of DD requires his death. From DD's point of view, if it had to be one of them (given the unbreakable vow), DD would sacrifice himself and let the younger man live. (DD must be at least twice as old as Severus. Can I be tossed off the Forum for not knowing his exact age? ) The message to the young may be one of DD's abiding goodness, not unlike Lily's sacrifice for Harry. And in the world of unbreakable vows, a mercy killing has less impact than it would in non-magial fiction. Maybe DD's sacrifice will be the catalyst for a positive change in Snape's character. It appears that no one ever did much for Snape, so it might have a huge impact.
Additionally, given all the refrences to DD aging, and to his blackened hand, it may be that Severus is better able to fight LV going forward. Magic Words speaks of him becoming more sympathetic as the books go on; I think his power as a wizard also increases. Or his power is highlighted more. If DD felt that Snape was more capable of fighting LV, he wuld certainly want him to be the one to survive.
Wynnleaf Maybe it's the Alan Rickman factor, but I don't see Snape as being too miserable as an adult. He seems to fit in reasonably well at Hogwarts. I don't think he was weak as a child/teen either; just an outcast.
winlia - Apr 27, 2006 8:05 pm (#1970 of 2969)
Where is "Meditation with Flies" located?
Dobby Socks - Apr 27, 2006 8:52 pm (#1971 of 2969)
winlia,
I think this link works: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
wynnleaf - Apr 27, 2006 9:12 pm (#1972 of 2969)
Edited Apr 27, 2006 10:13 pm
I take comfort in the fact that, when asked on several occasions who is her favorite character to write, JKR has mentioned Severus Snape. "I love writing Snape—even though he is not always the nicest person, he is really fun to write." and "You always see a lot of Snape, because he is a gift of a character. I hesitate to say that I love him."
A gift of a character. Well, I'm hoping she enjoys writing his character so much that she'll devote enough time in book 7 to make his redemption, resolution, (or whatever) quite satisfying for we readers.
On the generations thing, I don't think there's going to be a need to get rid of everyone in the previous generations in order to propel the younger ones into the future. I mean that would mean Lupin, Snape, Arthur and Molly, and then all the previous generations... Instead, JKR merged two generations (sort of) with Lupin and Tonks. DD, by the way, was around 150ish.
I've mentioned before that I don't think a quick "redemption" or exoneration scene while Snape dies to save Harry will be what Book 7 needs. I'm expecting JKR to instead use issues of trust and forgiveness with Snape as some things that Harry will have to work through prior to facing LV for the last time. Harry will likely defeat LV in some way that requires love, so I'm expecting him to have to have already dealt with his hate issues (aka, Severus).
If JKR has Harry and Severus find some sort of peace/resolution prior to Harry facing LV, then it could be possible for Severus to die and yet still have the character have achieved some sort of growth and resolution of conflict. On the other hand, if they reach that peace/resolution prior to Harry's facing LV, it might not be so thematically important to kill off Snape.
Either way, I'm mostly hoping that JKR's desire to work out issues of forgiveness and trust will force her to give time to resolving the primary conflicts that revolve around Severus Snape, if only because they likely affect Harry.
Ann - Apr 28, 2006 3:07 am (#1973 of 2969)
Oh dear, so many posts, so little time. Wynnleaf, I am one of those who felt as I read the last bits of HBP that Snape would have to die to redeem himself. It seemed fairly likely from GoF on, but it's hard to imagine JKR allowing a killer, even one who kills with good reason or permission (as I'm pretty sure is the case), to live on. On the other hand, Harry, in the cave, essentially does the same thing--after all, Dumbledore has only assured him that he wouldn't die immediately from the potion. Both of them are following Dumbledore's orders, and (as has often been pointed out) Harry's emotions at the time mirror Snape's later facial expression. And I don't really think Harry is going to have to die, so I'm beginning to think it's possible that Snape will be allowed to live.
There was some discussion about life debts a ways back that I wanted to pick up. I don't think life debts are magical, exactly; but they are very important and strong. But I don't think they're really heritable. I've always thought that Snape's punctiliousness about protecting Harry during his first year was meant to illustrate that he has a tremendously strong sense of honor--even though others would not feel the need to repay such a debt to the son of one to whom it is owed, Snape does. I suspect that it is this sense of honor that both got him into the Death Eaters (to defend it) and got him out again (because Voldemort insisted that he do things he found dishonorable). Lily was just the catalyst and the guarantee that he wouldn't go back--and I do think he was in love with her, maybe unrequitedly, but probably not.
Finally, whether he dies or not, I think that the end of the last book won't be satisfying unless Harry reconciles himself with Snape and comes to understand and value his courage and honor. The books are about Harry, after all, and not Snape, and he's really been unfair to Snape time and time again. As the hero, he has to learn to abandon his prejudices. My prediction (wrong thread, I know, but there you are) is that Harry will come to value the protection and care Snape has given him. He will indeed somehow defeat Voldemort using love, and that love will be the love he feels, in the end, for Snape--perhaps not exclusively for him (since I think Ginny will be important, too), but his love for Snape will be the last bit that puts him over the top, so to speak. Just like his love for Sirius.
I just don't think the series can end with Harry still hating Snape.
Saracene - Apr 28, 2006 3:11 am (#1974 of 2969)
Edited Apr 28, 2006 4:16 am
Well, I don't think that Snape is evil and I don't think that he needs to be "punished" for killing DD if he had done it on DD's own orders. In that scenario, Snape doesn't really require redemption - it's more a case of exoneration.
However, there still remains the fact that Snape is partly responsible for James and Lily's deaths and there's absolutely nothing he can do to give Harry his parents back. I've noticed also that this particular fact often tends to be left out of the discussions which mostly mention Snape killing DD and whether he needs to be redeemed for that. But I do believe that the role he played in Harry's parents' deaths - and Harry becoming the target for Voldemort - is IMO what Snape mainly has to redeem himself for. And since what he's done had extreme consequences for Harry and his life, Snape might pay the extreme price himself to make up for it.
Whether Snape has to die or not... it's not that I think that he -has to-; it's more that I personally can't really see much room for growth in his character. I just don't know if Snape is really capable of ever resolving his issues and finding some sort of peace, or changing his attitude towards Harry. I'd like him to survive, personally, but I'm not sure at all if that will happen.
wynnleaf - Apr 28, 2006 4:10 am (#1975 of 2969)
But I do believe that the role he played in Harry's parents' deaths - and Harry becoming the target for Voldemort - is IMO what Snape mainly has to redeem himself for. And since what he's done had extreme consequences for Harry and his life, Snape might pay the extreme price himself to make up for it.
I'd expect that risking his life for years in the effort to defeat LV and saving Harry's life several times would have gone a long way to make up for taking the partial prophecy to LV at -- what, about 19 years old?? If he hasn't already paid the price for that, I guess death is all that can do it. Personally, I think that if Harry ever really accepted what Snape has already done to pay for that mistake, he'd think Snape had already paid quite a price.
Mrs Brisbee - Apr 28, 2006 4:36 am (#1976 of 2969)
Edited Apr 28, 2006 5:37 am
I'd expect that risking his life for years in the effort to defeat LV and saving Harry's life several times would have gone a long way to make up for taking the partial prophecy to LV at -- what, about 19 years old?? If he hasn't already paid the price for that, I guess death is all that can do it. Personally, I think that if Harry ever really accepted what Snape has already done to pay for that mistake, he'd think Snape had already paid quite a price.
I think that's a little unfair to Harry. He's only 16 to Snape's 19 -- which I think is old enough in both cases to realize that becoming a henchman to a treasonous mass-murderer might be a bad idea, and any help you gave the Big Evil Guy is your responsibility, and none of your victims owes you forgiveness because you change your mind. Nothing Snape can do will bring back Lily or James.
That said, I hope Harry is able to grow past his hatred of Snape (in truth, I'm finding Snape's obsession with past hatred a bit tiresome at this point, and hope Harry doesn't get stuck in the same place). Harry might be able to forgive Snape if Snape would show some remorse. Barring that, he might at least recognize Snape's efforts to fight Voldemort, without getting all teary-eyed, because really, Snape chose his path, and it's Snape's job to seek redemption, not people to fawn all over him because of all his sacrifice.
Or, Snape could just be evil
wynnleaf - Apr 28, 2006 5:06 am (#1977 of 2969)
Edited Apr 28, 2006 6:09 am
I think that's a little unfair to Harry. He's only 16 to Snape's 19 -- which I think is old enough in both cases to realize that becoming a henchman to a treasonous mass-murderer might be a bad idea, and any help you gave the Big Evil Guy is your responsibility, and none of your victims owes you forgiveness because you change your mind. Nothing Snape can do will bring back Lily or James.
Mrs Brisbee, you were mistaken about what I was saying. I in no way implied that 19 years old isn't old enough to realize joining LV was a bad idea. Nor did I say that Snape's following LV wasn't his responsibility. Nor did I say that Harry owed Snape forgiveness. Nor did I say that Snape could bring back Lily or James. In short -- none of the above.
However, what exactly would it take for Snape to redeem himself? My point was that he has already spent years doing some of the most dangerous work of the Order in an effort to defeat LV. Within probably months of taking the partial prophecy to LV, he turned to DD and became a spy -- at great personal risk -- and seems to have been the spy that brought various information in an effort to help the Potters stay alive. Obviously, that effort was not successful and James and Lily died. Since Harry came to Hogwarts, Snape has continued to protect Harry on a number of occasions and later continued his extremely dangerous work as a spy. It may be that his efforts to protect Harry stem from a "life debt" to James, but perhaps they more stem from the knowledge that LV's attempts on Harry's life are a direct result of Snape's passing on of the prophecy years before.
My earlier point was that if literally years of extremely dangerous work to bring down LV, numerous efforts to protect Harry and sometimes save his life are not sufficient to "redeem" Snape in Harry's eyes, then I'd expect nothing can do it other than dying for the cause.
I suppose everyone has their own opinion about what is enough to be redeemed for passing along that prophecy. I tend to think Snape is already redeemed. Others might think he can't be without giving his life -- he must give his life to pay for telling LV the partial prophecy that influenced LV to seek their deaths.
By the way, I don't expect Snape's "redemption" is going to make him a nice guy, somehow more likeable. I don't think the story sets up a need for him to be redeemed for being generally sarcastic and insulting, but to be redeemed for his associations with LV and his part in the Potter's deaths.
Solitaire - Apr 28, 2006 6:26 am (#1978 of 2969)
I still have several posts to go, but my attention was arrested by this point: if Snape AK'd DD for some legitimately "good reason" (for instance, to keep him from becoming an inferi), then he's one of the most courageous of the Order
I'm confused. I thought one had to be dead in order to be turned into an Inferi. AKing someone would seem to make that possibility more rather than less likely. Please explain ...
What is tragic death?
This reminds me of a scene from Educating Rita, in which Michael Caine's character explains the difference between an event that is a tragedy and one that is "merely" (his word) tragic. In a nutshell, he explains that the death of a hero who is doomed by his own tragic flaw (Macbeth, in this case) is a tragedy. On the other hand, the death of a man who is killed when a tree falls on him is "merely" tragic. Question: Does Snape have a tragic flaw, and, if he does, what is it? I want to pursue this farther, but I must go to work now. Alas ... earwax!
Solitaire
wynnleaf - Apr 28, 2006 6:42 am (#1979 of 2969)
I'm confused. I thought one had to be dead in order to be turned into an Inferi. AKing someone would seem to make that possibility more rather than less likely. Please explain ...
I don't know...I was just referring to an example somebody gave that perhaps the cave liquids that DD drank would have killed him eventually and turned him into an Inferi, and that he somehow communicated that to Snape and so Snape's AKing him was basically okay because DD was dying anyway, and was now saved from becoming an inferi. Just someone's theory, but I wanted an example of reasons Snape could have killed DD for a "good" reason.
On tragic death, that's an interesting topic. I'll have to think more about it.
journeymom - Apr 28, 2006 8:24 am (#1980 of 2969)
This is a fruitful thread today, indeed.
""It's time for that generation's saga to end." -Journeymom
Given that I'm quite a bit older than Severus/James/Remus et.al, I'd like to think that the saga will go on for a few more decades! But you're probably right, Journeymom. " -Winlia
Well, I turned 38 yesterday, their age, and even by muggle standards I don't feel like I'm going to pop off anytime soon! But I wasn't saying they all have to die. Though I personally hope Peter dies, and painfully. I don't see Lupin dying; as somebody else said, he's a link to the younger generation, with Tonks.
"Additionally, given all the references to DD aging, and to his blackened hand, it may be that Severus is better able to fight LV going forward. Magic Words speaks of him becoming more sympathetic as the books go on; I think his power as a wizard also increases. Or his power is highlighted more. If DD felt that Snape was more capable of fighting LV, he wuld certainly want him to be the one to survive."
Hm, yes. Once again we need to remember the story is told through Harry's glasses. Snape's performance on the astronomy tower was commanding. Except that he kind of lost it with Harry at the gates of Hogwarts, (understandably, in my opinion) he was in control. And I concluded that Snape is one powerful bad $$@ wizard.
"Wynnleaf Maybe it's the Alan Rickman factor, but I don't see Snape as being too miserable as an adult. He seems to fit in reasonably well at Hogwarts. I don't think he was weak as a child/teen either; just an outcast. "
Just read some of the many, many post-final battle Snape fan fics. Snape carries on just fine. He marries Hermione. He marries Tonks. He marries some completely origional character. He sets up his own potions shop. He leaves Britain for Australia or Spain. He leaves Britain for a remote lake in Canada. He finds out about a long lost child. He discovers he does like children, as long as they're his own, and ends up having a whole passle of them. He becomes the next Dark Lord. The possibilities are endless!
"However, there still remains the fact that Snape is partly responsible for James and Lily's deaths and there's absolutely nothing he can do to give Harry his parents back. I've noticed also that this particular fact often tends to be left out of the discussions which mostly mention Snape killing DD and whether he needs to be redeemed for that. But I do believe that the role he played in Harry's parents' deaths - and Harry becoming the target for Voldemort - is IMO what Snape mainly has to redeem himself for. And since what he's done had extreme consequences for Harry and his life, Snape might pay the extreme price himself to make up for it. "
Isn't Harry responsible for Dd's death as well? Assuming that wasn't Draught of Living Death he forced down Dd's throat, Harry poisoned him, and it looked fairly painful. If this is the case, then Harry needs to realize this and reconsider Snape's part in his parents deaths in that light. (If Dd is dead) Harry is just as culpable for Dd's death as Snape is. He's going to feel awful for that. Am I missing something with that scenario?
"Whether Snape has to die or not... it's not that I think that he -has to-; it's more that I personally can't really see much room for growth in his character. I just don't know if Snape is really capable of ever resolving his issues and finding some sort of peace, or changing his attitude towards Harry. I'd like him to survive, personally, but I'm not sure at all if that will happen." -Saracene
I agree. Though I think for literary perposes Snape will die. It's not Snape that has to change at this point, it's Harry that does. Though I'd like it if Snape would. And I sure as heck don't think Harry has to love him in order to defeat Voldemort. He mearly needs to acknowledge Snape's contribution and forgive him for his part in his parents deaths.
I agree about Lucius, that he was not overjoyed at the return of Voldemort. I think Snape knows exactly how oily Lucius is, and how comfortable and influential a life he held until the Dark Lord's return. And I think he knew full well that one does not simply "not show up" without an ironclad excuse. Perhaps his sudden movement was a startled realisation that the event really happened. It was a 'telling' sudden move, we just don't know WHAT Snape was telling in it!
Die Zimtzicke - Apr 26, 2006 9:20 am (#1942 of 2969)
I doubt if Dumbledore refused the DADA job to Snape because it was cursed. I think it was because he was too involved with the Dark Arts as it was, It would have been too risky for him to get into at that time.
Quirrell had the job for a year, went away, and then came back, did he not? (I often wonder if Dumbledore sent him away to get practical experince and then regretted it.) I'm sure Snape could have had it for year, then gone back to Potions, then back to DADA if it had been necessary.
As for what pushed him away from Voldemort, I do think he got disillusioned like Regulus. Maybe someone found out he was a half-blood and threatened to tell? That could explain whey he wound up being called Lucius' lapdog. Maybe Lucius was blackmailing him. I am also completely against the Snape/Lily romance/crush thing. If that's what is it, I'll be shocked. If Snape had come over to Dumbledore AFTER Lily was killed, I'd be more inclined to look at it further, but I'm not fond of that theory personally as things stand.
wynnleaf - Apr 26, 2006 10:40 am (#1943 of 2969)
Die Zimtzicke,
Your argument seems to assume that DD could pick and choose the manner in which DADA teachers lost their DADA position after a year. In fact, that wasn't the case. Quirrell's "departure" wasn't planned by DD, nor was Lockharts, or Lupin's. Moody may have only planned to teach one year, but the manner of his leaving Hogwarts (having been kidnapped basically and imprisoned for 9 months) was certainly not the way DD had planned for him to leave. And Umbridge may or may not have been intended to stay for just 1 year. But DD didn't get to plan the manner of her leaving either.
It would have been dangerous to put Snape into the position simply assuming that the manner of his fulfilling the curse by leaving the position after a year could be managed according to some safe plan of simply shifting him back to the potions position.
Solitaire - Apr 26, 2006 12:32 pm (#1944 of 2969)
Edited Apr 26, 2006 1:57 pm
I think Umbridge certainly had bigger plans in store for herself than one single year as Hogwarts' DADA teacher. I suspect she planned to become the Head of the school and completely revamp it in her own warped, twisted, toad-like image.
Dumbledore seemed less than enthusiastic to have Umbridge at Hogwarts, given her penchant for usurping his authority (as if she really could). I even suspect that, in her case, he took a perverse kind of comfort in the longstanding "jinx," don't you?
Solitaire
wynnleaf - Apr 26, 2006 1:39 pm (#1945 of 2969)
I even suspect that, in her case, he took a perverse kind of comfort in the longstanding "jinx," don't you?
I bet he did! I wonder why Harry never wonders about why DD put Snape in the DADA position knowing it was cursed?
Gina R Snape - Apr 26, 2006 4:43 pm (#1946 of 2969)
Solitaire, I absolutely agree DD must have taken some perverse pleasure in that. I wonder if he spent any time amusing himself with what horrible scenario was coming to unseat her!
wynnleaf, Harry is so frustratingly unanalytical at times. There's a LOT he never wonders about that makes me crazy. And I completely agree that it was waaay too dangerous to play with fate regarding the curse and that position. Anyway, DD needed to be absolutely certain Snape was around for a period of time. Keeping him in Potions was one way to do that.
Soul Search - Apr 26, 2006 4:59 pm (#1947 of 2969)
Placing Snape in the DADA position would have given some reason for him leaving Hogwarts, to be closer to Voldemort. Was that the original reason for giving Snape the DADA job? Some part of Dumbledore's "grand plan" that required Snape close to Voldemort?
The tower scene and Snape AKing Dumbledore couldn't have been part of an overall plan. Seems a stretch, anyway.
So, what is Snape to do, being so close to Voldemort?
Gina R Snape - Apr 26, 2006 6:47 pm (#1948 of 2969)
Snape claims he was directed by Voldemort to work for DD teaching at Hogwarts. And he applied for the DADA position. I wonder if he was initially directed to apply for the DADA position. Then Voldemort would be able to test and see if his curse on the position was still on, and could have Snape there for just one year. But why would Voldemort want Snape at Hogwarts for only one year?
Die Zimtzicke - Apr 26, 2006 7:30 pm (#1949 of 2969)
I'm not assuming Dumbledore was picking and choosing how the teachers left. I'm just saying we have no idea of what happened to any teacher from the time the curse was placed up until the time that Harry started school. They couldn't possibly have all died, in my opinion. They could have left for a variety of reasons, and some of them could certainly have worked a year, gone away for a year, and come back. We have absolutely no canon evidence that they couldn't. We know Quirrell was there and then went away for a year.
Maybe Dumbledore sent him away before the school year actually ended, maybe as soon as testing was over, to keep the curse from striking him. We don't know.
Heck, two of the teachers could have alternated the jobs for years, for that matter. We don't know any differently. If they all died for twenty years straight or so, the curse would have been much more widely known or at least suspected. Snape could well have taught for a year, then left the position and taken it again at a later date, if he had not had to flee as I see it.
From 1955 until Harry started school is an awfully long time. I know, because I was born in 1955, and believe me, I feel old on a regular basis. LOL!
winlia - Apr 26, 2006 7:44 pm (#1950 of 2969)
I like the idea that Snape's break from LV was because he lost someone, possibly a parent. Or, he may have coaxed a friend or girlfriend (or potential girlfriend) into joining the DE's only to have him or her fall out of favor with LV and be killed.
I agree that Snape and Lily seem an unlikely pair, and I think his involvement in her and James' deaths is murky at best. Maybe he is less culpable than he seems at first blush.
Also, when speaking of Snape's greatest regret, DD didn't finish his sentence. I think the regret is something other than the death of the Potters. DD may have been on the verge of telling Harry that Snape lost someone too.
wynnleaf - Apr 27, 2006 9:19 am (#1951 of 2969)
Edited Apr 27, 2006 10:20 am
I'd like to put a question to everyone that's a change of subject (sorry), but I wanted to ask this while there are plenty of people reading this thread. Things had been slow awhile back, and now that people are here, I want to ask this.
Recently I've been hearing from a number of people who like the Snape character and are really concerned about what JKR has done with the character at the end of HBP.
At first, when people were saying they were distressed by what happened with Snape in HBP, I assumed it was because many people had previously liked Snape, but now thought JKR was setting him up to be the Traitor. As I have come to understand some of these fans more, though, I realize that's not the concern for many.
I've noticed, in other forums and particularly among fan fic writers, a real belief that JKR dislikes Snape's character and, while keeping him on DD's side, has placed Snape by the end of HBP in a completely untenable situation from which the only way out is a tragic death.
The people I've noticed with these feelings see Snape as definitely on the Order's side, and therefore in a position of carrying out the most dangerous aspects of the Order's missions, while having no friends or those who trust him other than DD who he has now had to kill. These fans see Snape's character as one with a difficult and unhappy past who is regardless still trying to serve the Light in a basically thankless and friendless atmosphere (except for DD), and who has now been put by JKR a position of being opposed by practically all. That is, DE's are suspicious of him, Order members and ministry officials believe he's a murderer, Hogwarts staff and students think he's a murderer, and the only one who might feel positively toward him, LV, is actually his primary enemy.
What I sense in many of these fans is a sadness and a bit of a hopeless feeling about Book 7 (as regards Snape's character). It's not just that people are concerned with JKR killing him off. I think it's that people are concerned that JKR will not allow the character any personal resolution or peace. This is just my sense. I don't think I've seen anyone articulate it as such.
When DD died (if he died), there was really not much sense of tragedy. Death is the next adventure for him, he had a full life with many who loved him, etc. etc. Lots of readers were sad to see him go, but it's not so much sad for DD, as sad to see him go.
When Sirius died, he had not been exonerated publicly and he was feeling depressed by being at 12 Grimauld Place. But he did have friends who knew the truth and accepted and loved him. His death, while sad and tragic to a degree, doesn't present the same sort of hopelessness that I sense in the expectations of many Snape fans.
Personally, I don't feel quite this sense of sadness about the end of HBP. I loved HBP and have greater hopes about how JKR will handle Book 7.
For the first months after HBP, most Snape fans spent a lot of time arguing for why Snape was really on the good side. That pretty much took up all the attention when fans discussed Snape.
Now, as I sense a degree of frustration from Snape fans about the situation at the end of HBP and the possibilities of what JKR is doing with the character, I'd really love to hear from people on the Lexicon Forum.
Those of you who think Snape is not Evil, and probably not out for himself alone -- do you relate to these other fans and their feeling that JKR dislikes the character? Do you feel that she's willing to leave the character in terrible circumstances permenantly -- only to be released by a tragic death?
Or something completely different?
Just very curious.
Just for the record, I don't have the same feelings about HBP, Snape's future in book 7, and JKR as these other Snape fans that I mention. But I'm very interested in how others feel about it.
wynnleaf
haymoni - Apr 27, 2006 9:25 am (#1952 of 2969)
There was a quote from JKR where she basically said Draco was awful, blah, blah, blah and she feared for the little girls who seemed to like him as a character. She did, however, say that Tom Felton had a lot to do with that.
Dumbledore compares Harry's relationship with Draco to that of James & Snape.
Does Dumbledore speak for JKR as well?
If that is the case, then Snape is just as despicable as Draco.
I'm not saying that he is, Gina...I'm just saying that if JKR has set up this comparison, we have to wonder about it.
wynnleaf - Apr 27, 2006 9:51 am (#1953 of 2969)
Dumbledore compares Harry's relationship with Draco to that of James & Snape.
I just read that passage today. DD said Snape's dislike of James was much like Harry and Draco. I suppose it depends on which one he meant, or even if he meant a specific correlation Harry=James, or Harry=Snape. I always thought James in the pensieve scene seemed a bit more like Draco, even if he did turn out okay in the end. Certainly there are more parallels of Harry to Snape than to his dad.
DD "speaks" for JKR sometimes. But DD also trusts Snape.
Laura W - Apr 27, 2006 10:14 am (#1954 of 2969)
Edited Apr 27, 2006 11:16 am
Die Zimtzicke wrote, "They could have left for a variety of reasons, and some of them could certainly have worked a year, gone away for a year, and come back. We have absolutely no canon evidence that they couldn't. We know Quirrell was there and then went away for a year."
Now that I think about it, it really bothers me that Quirrell was able to teach DADA more than one year. Yeah, I know it was not two consecutive years but, to me, it still seems to go against the curse put on that position.
DD says in HBP, "You see, we have never been able to keep a Defence Against the Dark Arts teacher for longer than a year since I refused the post to Lord Voldemort." He doesn't say "for longer than one year in a row"; he says "for longer than one year."
I don't know, maybe I'm splitting hairs - welcome to Lexicon (ha, ha)! ... but it almost seems like - dare I say it? - a mistake on Jo's part to either allow Quirrell to teach again in PS or to not have DD say "one consecutive year" in HBP.
Anyway, I just thought I would just voice my feelings on this before continuing on with the most interesting subject wynnleaf has raised in #1951.
Laura
Solitaire - Apr 27, 2006 10:18 am (#1955 of 2969)
Edited Apr 27, 2006 11:53 am
That's the trouble--isn't it, Haymoni?--with putting likeable actors in rotten roles. I must say, though, that I forget how much I love Alan Rickman when I watch any of the HP movies. He is able to transcend his natural charm for this role. Perhaps it is because of the hair and makeup he wears for Snape, but I just see none of Rickman in Snape.
Solitaire
K Stahl - Apr 27, 2006 12:38 pm (#1956 of 2969)
Perhaps Voldemort lifted the curse for Quirrell's second year.
Laura W - Apr 27, 2006 1:04 pm (#1957 of 2969)
Edited Apr 27, 2006 2:08 pm
And then put it back on again? Hmmm. Well, we have no canon for your theory but it does make sense in its way. Having found an insider at Hogwarts whose body (and mind) he could inhabit, it would be to the unformed-Voldemort's great advantage to temporarily lift the curse this one time.
As V says of Quirrell in GoF, chapter The Death Eaters, p. 567 (Raincoast): "... he was easy to bend to my will ... he brought me back to this country, and after a while, I took possession of his body, to supervise him closely as he carried out my orders. ..."
The orders were, of course, to steal the Philosopher's Stone which was, as it happens, located in the school in which Quirrell taught. And Quirrell had to be there to steal it.
Ok, Situ, I think you might have just gotten Jo off the hook, a la Marcus Flint (grin).
Thanks
Laura
K Stahl - Apr 27, 2006 2:35 pm (#1958 of 2969)
Edited Apr 27, 2006 3:41 pm
Or, perhaps Dumbledore's mention of the DADA position being cursed was metaphoric.
Or, perhaps it was just and example of Dumbledore humor. He was having trouble keeping the position filled.
Catherine - Apr 27, 2006 3:09 pm (#1959 of 2969)
Edited Apr 27, 2006 4:14 pm
Or, perhaps it was just and example of Dumbledore humor. He was having trouble keeping the position filled.
Dumbledore does jest, but I do think he spoke the literal truth about the Dark Arts position. It has been alluded to for years that the position was cursed, and once I read HbP, I was convinced.
Professor Snape (nods to Gina about the use of "Professor") has the cerebral savvy to infer what taking the DA job might mean. Choices ARE the key in this series, and Dumbledore's and Snape's choices will out-like Aunt Marge said about "blood" in the Azkaban film (and no, films are NOT canon).
Phew. That was a mouthful, and I'm sleepy...And I have to watch Joepardy! before I sleep.... ZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzZzzzzzzzzzzzzz
winlia - Apr 27, 2006 3:37 pm (#1960 of 2969)
Wynnleaf
I think you read my mind, although I don't think as clearly or elegantly as you write.
I wasn't worried about Snape dying until I started reading these fan posts. In my mind, the only really bad thing he's done is telling the prophecy, and I don't think we have the complete story on that yet. A lot has been written on this thread about Snape needing redemption, but I think he needs to catch a break (or two) in his life.
My sense, when I finished book 6, was that he was likely to be rewarded in 7. After all, he's been risking death while spying, and I suspect killing DD was more a sacrifice than a sin on Snape's part. Also, as I wrote in a much earlier post, JLR seems to be rewarding the less socially-adept kids, and punishing the popular ones. Neville and Luna seem to be coming into their own, and Lily, James, and Sirius are dead. I don't think that JKR dislikes Snape, but she does go hard on bullies. Dudley and Uncle Vernon have no redeeming characteristics.
JRK has written Snape quite sympathetically, given the pensive scenes.
As fond as I am of the fictional Snape, I think JKR did make a valid point when she spoke of him and Draco. Given the way they relate to others, they wouldn't make ideal husbands. (My apologies, Gina.) Given that this is fiction, they may change, but in real life the prospects for a true change of character wouldn't be so good. JRK's younger female readers may not understand this.
rambkowalczyk - Apr 27, 2006 3:53 pm (#1961 of 2969)
Edited Apr 27, 2006 4:56 pm
Those of you who think Snape is not Evil, and probably not out for himself alone -- do you relate to these other fans and their feeling that JKR dislikes the character? Do you feel that she's willing to leave the character in terrible circumstances permanently -- only to be released by a tragic death? -Wynnleaf
As I try to type an answer I realize I'm not sure of the question. I think JKR has empathy for Snape. Whereas she may want to do lunch with Sirius or Dumbledore she may pass up the invitation from Snape. In spite of that I think she will give the readers his side of the story.
Wasn't quite sure about what you meant about 'leaving the character in terrible circumstances permanently.' Are you talking about guilt about killing Dumbledore or forever carrying a grudge against the Potter family.
What is tragic death? Is a tragic death one where he dies saving Harry or one where he is accidentally killed by an Auror after he explains to Harry what he was really doing or one where he dies still hating Harry maybe even saving Harry's life in the process?
Does Snape have to die? Wynnleaf, I think it was you who said something to the effect about the moral message about mercy killing or trying to explain to children that it is ok to kill if the victim demands it. In light of that sentiment, if Snape killed Dumbledore because Dumbledore ordered it, Snape will die.
BUT the tragic death doesn't have to happen or if it does it can happen to Peter Pettigrew. If Snape is to be redeemed it would be one of three ways. 1 He killed Dumbledore by accident and is truly sorry but instead of wallowing in his guilt he chooses to help Harry. 2 He killed Dumbledore to prevent him from becoming an inferi (or some other thing worse that death. 3 Dumbledore isn't dead. If Snape is redeemed he doesn't have to die.
Regarding Quirrel This is from Book 1 Diagon Alley. poor bloke. Brilliant mind. He was fine while he was studyin'outta books but then he took a year off ter get some first hand experience... They say he met vampires in the Black Forest,
If I want to be nitpicky, Hagrid could have meant that Quirrel was suppose to teach the year before, but decided to postpone it to get first hand experience.
Magic Words - Apr 27, 2006 4:34 pm (#1962 of 2969)
Edited Apr 27, 2006 5:36 pm
Wynnleaf, I'm one of those people who don't think Snape is evil and are concerned about his character's personal resolution, as you put it. I wouldn't say I'm distressed, though. I trust JKR to do her characters justice. I have heard (read, rather) her saying in interviews that Snape is not a nice person, you shouldn't love him, etc., but she also says he's one of her favorite characters to write. She's also made him more sympathetic as the series goes on (you simply do not put a character in as much pain as a yelping, howling dog in a burning house behind him, and then write him off) so I think that when she says she doesn't like him, what she means is that she wouldn't like to know him personally and not that she thinks he deserves to suffer without some kind of recompensation. My biggest worry about Snape is that he will die before he and Harry come to some understanding (note that I didn't say friendship, necessarily) and Harry will have to settle for forgiving him posthumously.
One more thing: I've been assuming Snape will die because I just can't think of anything else for him to do after the war ends. He'd have a lot of trouble finding a place in the Wizarding World again. Does anyone have other ideas about what might happen to him?
journeymom - Apr 27, 2006 4:52 pm (#1963 of 2969)
"As fond as I am of the fictional Snape, I think JKR did make a valid point when she spoke of him and Draco. Given the way they relate to others, they wouldn't make ideal husbands. (My apologies, Gina.) Given that this is fiction, they may change, but in real life the prospects for a true change of character wouldn't be so good. JRK's younger female readers may not understand this. "
Absolutely. That's my impressions as well. Wasn't JK Rowling's first marriage rather rocky? It's easy for young women to be enamoured with 'bad boys' and think they'll change them. And time and again, this does not bear out. She blames some of the situation of Alan Rickman and Tom Felton.
When I finished HBP I concluded immediately that Snape will die sometime in Book 7. It's time for that generation's saga to end. Draco will live and hopefully lead a different life.
I'm ready and willing to accept whatever JKR throws us regarding Snape, but that doesn't mean I'll be happy with it. (I'm in the Snape is good camp.)
wynnleaf - Apr 27, 2006 5:35 pm (#1964 of 2969)
Edited Apr 27, 2006 6:37 pm
Magic Words, I think I tend to have your same perspective on the future of the character.
rambkowalczyk, I need to answer a few of your comments.
Wasn't quite sure about what you meant about 'leaving the character in terrible circumstances permanently.' Are you talking about guilt about killing Dumbledore or forever carrying a grudge against the Potter family.
I was talking about the views of some very pro-Snape readers. By "terrible circumstances," I meant that if Snape AK'd DD for some legitimately "good reason" (for instance, to keep him from becoming an inferi), then he's one of the most courageous of the Order, yet is now in this position that's even worse than Sirius' -- absolutely no one to trust or who trusts him, wanted as a murderer, no friends to reconcile with (if DD's dead), basically a dismal past with no future. Yet at the same time being this very heroic character. Hey, that's pretty tragic, don't you think?
What is tragic death? Is a tragic death one where he dies saving Harry or one where he is accidentally killed by an Auror after he explains to Harry what he was really doing or one where he dies still hating Harry maybe even saving Harry's life in the process?
Certainly there's tragedy there. But for a literary character, it's even more tragic if the character never finds some resolution or peace to his conflicted circumstances. Characters, especially the most conflicted ones, tend to beg for growth and resolution to the conflict (their personal conflict). I think many Snape fans are unsure that this will ever happen. Of course, he's not the main character, but he is apparently one of the characters with the highest amount of conflict.
Wynnleaf, I think it was you who said something to the effect about the moral message about mercy killing or trying to explain to children that it is ok to kill if the victim demands it. In light of that sentiment, if Snape killed Dumbledore because Dumbledore ordered it, Snape will die.
Yes, that was me and a big reason why I don't think DD is properly dead. But that's another topic.
Magic Words - Apr 27, 2006 5:39 pm (#1965 of 2969)
"It's time for that generation's saga to end." -Journeymom
Poor Tonks . But as much as I hate to say it, you may have a point. So Snape dies and Draco can finish what he began by helping Harry unify the four houses.
TheSaint - Apr 27, 2006 7:16 pm (#1966 of 2969)
Jo's comments always led me to believe that the deal Dumbledore has with Snape is sort of a 'lesser of two evils.'
Snape pulling the biggest coup in the history of the wizarding world, by defeating the most powerful dark one with cunning and bravery. Most families, like the Blacks, agreed with the premise but not the tactics of Voldemort..he goes to far. Sort of like the difference between the mafia of old and the evil we have now. Where the mafia did horrible things..it was contained within thier own ranks, thier own organizations, sort of an evil honor code. Now we have evil that has no bounds, innocent and guilty alike are at its mercy.
Should Snape survive I would expect he would be the next Dark Lord, just how dark is to be seen.
Just one of many theories..lol.
Nathan Zimmermann - Apr 27, 2006 7:31 pm (#1967 of 2969)
I found it quite interesting that in the guise of the Half Blood Prince, Snape was able to successfully teach Harry. This would seem to indicate that Snape is capable teaching Harry at least indirectly. After, he finds out the Potions book belonged to Severus, Harry calls the book evil. However, with the possible exception of Sectumsempra none of the spells demonstrated in the book rises to level of malice that was involved in the creation of Tom Riddle's diary.
Dobby Socks - Apr 27, 2006 7:53 pm (#1968 of 2969)
Wynnleaf,
Wow. I could write a major essay in response. But I promise not to. LOL. Incidentally, after finishing HBP, I e-mailed the friend who got me hooked with a list of the 3 majors most likely to die in #7: 1.) Voldemort 2.) Snape 3.) Harry. So I haven’t held out much hope for Snape’s survival since before I started reading the message boards.
In a nutshell, I’m a bit worried, but not primarily about the outcome you stated. Not that I want to see Severus die universally hated and/or without “any personal resolution or peace,” but, if Jo wants to write such a tragic figure, that’s her decision (obviously), and I think that doing this would have some literary merit. What I’m most worried about is her not giving sufficient space to his “redemption”. Actually, because I consider him a key character, what I’m most worried about is her not giving him sufficient space to occupy that role. If that makes sense. So, yes, I want the very lengthy version of the book.
I’m aware that JKR has made some negative comments about Snape, but (as I stated in an earlier post) I think she likes the character more than she lets on. She seems to me to have invested a lot in creating & developing the Snape character, as well as eventually making him a more sympathetic character. And, yes, I agree that her Draco/Severus comment was meant to advise girls against falling into the so called “bad-boy syndrome.” Additionally, I’m not going to go so far as to state that she purposefully uses misdirection as a tactic in her interviews, but I would think that sometimes something beyond “no comment” is warranted if you intend to leave any suspense.
Winlia wrote: “A lot has been written on this thread about Snape needing redemption, but I think he needs to catch a break (or two) in his life.”
I love this statement, Winlia. This morning, I read Gina’s “Meditation with Flies” story for the first time and I was getting teary (and you just iced the cake with that last line, Gina.) This Severus Snape stuff is really getting under my skin. Anyone know a good psychiatrist who’s also a HP fan (so I won’t have to explain having fictional-character issues)?
winlia - Apr 27, 2006 7:59 pm (#1969 of 2969)
"It's time for that generation's saga to end." -Journeymom
Given that I'm quite a bit older than Severus/James/Remus et.al, I'd like to think that the saga will go on for a few more decades!
But you're probably right, Journeymom. Maybe I'm just looking for excuses for Snape to survive, but I'm not sure that his killing of DD requires his death. From DD's point of view, if it had to be one of them (given the unbreakable vow), DD would sacrifice himself and let the younger man live. (DD must be at least twice as old as Severus. Can I be tossed off the Forum for not knowing his exact age?
) The message to the young may be one of DD's abiding goodness, not unlike Lily's sacrifice for Harry. And in the world of unbreakable vows, a mercy killing has less impact than it would in non-magial fiction. Maybe DD's sacrifice will be the catalyst for a positive change in Snape's character. It appears that no one ever did much for Snape, so it might have a huge impact. Additionally, given all the refrences to DD aging, and to his blackened hand, it may be that Severus is better able to fight LV going forward. Magic Words speaks of him becoming more sympathetic as the books go on; I think his power as a wizard also increases. Or his power is highlighted more. If DD felt that Snape was more capable of fighting LV, he wuld certainly want him to be the one to survive.
Wynnleaf Maybe it's the Alan Rickman factor, but I don't see Snape as being too miserable as an adult. He seems to fit in reasonably well at Hogwarts. I don't think he was weak as a child/teen either; just an outcast.
winlia - Apr 27, 2006 8:05 pm (#1970 of 2969)
Where is "Meditation with Flies" located?
Dobby Socks - Apr 27, 2006 8:52 pm (#1971 of 2969)
winlia,
I think this link works: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
wynnleaf - Apr 27, 2006 9:12 pm (#1972 of 2969)
Edited Apr 27, 2006 10:13 pm
I take comfort in the fact that, when asked on several occasions who is her favorite character to write, JKR has mentioned Severus Snape. "I love writing Snape—even though he is not always the nicest person, he is really fun to write." and "You always see a lot of Snape, because he is a gift of a character. I hesitate to say that I love him."
A gift of a character. Well, I'm hoping she enjoys writing his character so much that she'll devote enough time in book 7 to make his redemption, resolution, (or whatever) quite satisfying for we readers.
On the generations thing, I don't think there's going to be a need to get rid of everyone in the previous generations in order to propel the younger ones into the future. I mean that would mean Lupin, Snape, Arthur and Molly, and then all the previous generations... Instead, JKR merged two generations (sort of) with Lupin and Tonks. DD, by the way, was around 150ish.
I've mentioned before that I don't think a quick "redemption" or exoneration scene while Snape dies to save Harry will be what Book 7 needs. I'm expecting JKR to instead use issues of trust and forgiveness with Snape as some things that Harry will have to work through prior to facing LV for the last time. Harry will likely defeat LV in some way that requires love, so I'm expecting him to have to have already dealt with his hate issues (aka, Severus).
If JKR has Harry and Severus find some sort of peace/resolution prior to Harry facing LV, then it could be possible for Severus to die and yet still have the character have achieved some sort of growth and resolution of conflict. On the other hand, if they reach that peace/resolution prior to Harry's facing LV, it might not be so thematically important to kill off Snape.
Either way, I'm mostly hoping that JKR's desire to work out issues of forgiveness and trust will force her to give time to resolving the primary conflicts that revolve around Severus Snape, if only because they likely affect Harry.
Ann - Apr 28, 2006 3:07 am (#1973 of 2969)
Oh dear, so many posts, so little time. Wynnleaf, I am one of those who felt as I read the last bits of HBP that Snape would have to die to redeem himself. It seemed fairly likely from GoF on, but it's hard to imagine JKR allowing a killer, even one who kills with good reason or permission (as I'm pretty sure is the case), to live on. On the other hand, Harry, in the cave, essentially does the same thing--after all, Dumbledore has only assured him that he wouldn't die immediately from the potion. Both of them are following Dumbledore's orders, and (as has often been pointed out) Harry's emotions at the time mirror Snape's later facial expression. And I don't really think Harry is going to have to die, so I'm beginning to think it's possible that Snape will be allowed to live.
There was some discussion about life debts a ways back that I wanted to pick up. I don't think life debts are magical, exactly; but they are very important and strong. But I don't think they're really heritable. I've always thought that Snape's punctiliousness about protecting Harry during his first year was meant to illustrate that he has a tremendously strong sense of honor--even though others would not feel the need to repay such a debt to the son of one to whom it is owed, Snape does. I suspect that it is this sense of honor that both got him into the Death Eaters (to defend it) and got him out again (because Voldemort insisted that he do things he found dishonorable). Lily was just the catalyst and the guarantee that he wouldn't go back--and I do think he was in love with her, maybe unrequitedly, but probably not.
Finally, whether he dies or not, I think that the end of the last book won't be satisfying unless Harry reconciles himself with Snape and comes to understand and value his courage and honor. The books are about Harry, after all, and not Snape, and he's really been unfair to Snape time and time again. As the hero, he has to learn to abandon his prejudices. My prediction (wrong thread, I know, but there you are) is that Harry will come to value the protection and care Snape has given him. He will indeed somehow defeat Voldemort using love, and that love will be the love he feels, in the end, for Snape--perhaps not exclusively for him (since I think Ginny will be important, too), but his love for Snape will be the last bit that puts him over the top, so to speak. Just like his love for Sirius.
I just don't think the series can end with Harry still hating Snape.
Saracene - Apr 28, 2006 3:11 am (#1974 of 2969)
Edited Apr 28, 2006 4:16 am
Well, I don't think that Snape is evil and I don't think that he needs to be "punished" for killing DD if he had done it on DD's own orders. In that scenario, Snape doesn't really require redemption - it's more a case of exoneration.
However, there still remains the fact that Snape is partly responsible for James and Lily's deaths and there's absolutely nothing he can do to give Harry his parents back. I've noticed also that this particular fact often tends to be left out of the discussions which mostly mention Snape killing DD and whether he needs to be redeemed for that. But I do believe that the role he played in Harry's parents' deaths - and Harry becoming the target for Voldemort - is IMO what Snape mainly has to redeem himself for. And since what he's done had extreme consequences for Harry and his life, Snape might pay the extreme price himself to make up for it.
Whether Snape has to die or not... it's not that I think that he -has to-; it's more that I personally can't really see much room for growth in his character. I just don't know if Snape is really capable of ever resolving his issues and finding some sort of peace, or changing his attitude towards Harry. I'd like him to survive, personally, but I'm not sure at all if that will happen.
wynnleaf - Apr 28, 2006 4:10 am (#1975 of 2969)
But I do believe that the role he played in Harry's parents' deaths - and Harry becoming the target for Voldemort - is IMO what Snape mainly has to redeem himself for. And since what he's done had extreme consequences for Harry and his life, Snape might pay the extreme price himself to make up for it.
I'd expect that risking his life for years in the effort to defeat LV and saving Harry's life several times would have gone a long way to make up for taking the partial prophecy to LV at -- what, about 19 years old?? If he hasn't already paid the price for that, I guess death is all that can do it. Personally, I think that if Harry ever really accepted what Snape has already done to pay for that mistake, he'd think Snape had already paid quite a price.
Mrs Brisbee - Apr 28, 2006 4:36 am (#1976 of 2969)
Edited Apr 28, 2006 5:37 am
I'd expect that risking his life for years in the effort to defeat LV and saving Harry's life several times would have gone a long way to make up for taking the partial prophecy to LV at -- what, about 19 years old?? If he hasn't already paid the price for that, I guess death is all that can do it. Personally, I think that if Harry ever really accepted what Snape has already done to pay for that mistake, he'd think Snape had already paid quite a price.
I think that's a little unfair to Harry. He's only 16 to Snape's 19 -- which I think is old enough in both cases to realize that becoming a henchman to a treasonous mass-murderer might be a bad idea, and any help you gave the Big Evil Guy is your responsibility, and none of your victims owes you forgiveness because you change your mind. Nothing Snape can do will bring back Lily or James.
That said, I hope Harry is able to grow past his hatred of Snape (in truth, I'm finding Snape's obsession with past hatred a bit tiresome at this point, and hope Harry doesn't get stuck in the same place). Harry might be able to forgive Snape if Snape would show some remorse. Barring that, he might at least recognize Snape's efforts to fight Voldemort, without getting all teary-eyed, because really, Snape chose his path, and it's Snape's job to seek redemption, not people to fawn all over him because of all his sacrifice.
Or, Snape could just be evil
wynnleaf - Apr 28, 2006 5:06 am (#1977 of 2969)
Edited Apr 28, 2006 6:09 am
I think that's a little unfair to Harry. He's only 16 to Snape's 19 -- which I think is old enough in both cases to realize that becoming a henchman to a treasonous mass-murderer might be a bad idea, and any help you gave the Big Evil Guy is your responsibility, and none of your victims owes you forgiveness because you change your mind. Nothing Snape can do will bring back Lily or James.
Mrs Brisbee, you were mistaken about what I was saying. I in no way implied that 19 years old isn't old enough to realize joining LV was a bad idea. Nor did I say that Snape's following LV wasn't his responsibility. Nor did I say that Harry owed Snape forgiveness. Nor did I say that Snape could bring back Lily or James. In short -- none of the above.
However, what exactly would it take for Snape to redeem himself? My point was that he has already spent years doing some of the most dangerous work of the Order in an effort to defeat LV. Within probably months of taking the partial prophecy to LV, he turned to DD and became a spy -- at great personal risk -- and seems to have been the spy that brought various information in an effort to help the Potters stay alive. Obviously, that effort was not successful and James and Lily died. Since Harry came to Hogwarts, Snape has continued to protect Harry on a number of occasions and later continued his extremely dangerous work as a spy. It may be that his efforts to protect Harry stem from a "life debt" to James, but perhaps they more stem from the knowledge that LV's attempts on Harry's life are a direct result of Snape's passing on of the prophecy years before.
My earlier point was that if literally years of extremely dangerous work to bring down LV, numerous efforts to protect Harry and sometimes save his life are not sufficient to "redeem" Snape in Harry's eyes, then I'd expect nothing can do it other than dying for the cause.
I suppose everyone has their own opinion about what is enough to be redeemed for passing along that prophecy. I tend to think Snape is already redeemed. Others might think he can't be without giving his life -- he must give his life to pay for telling LV the partial prophecy that influenced LV to seek their deaths.
By the way, I don't expect Snape's "redemption" is going to make him a nice guy, somehow more likeable. I don't think the story sets up a need for him to be redeemed for being generally sarcastic and insulting, but to be redeemed for his associations with LV and his part in the Potter's deaths.
Solitaire - Apr 28, 2006 6:26 am (#1978 of 2969)
I still have several posts to go, but my attention was arrested by this point: if Snape AK'd DD for some legitimately "good reason" (for instance, to keep him from becoming an inferi), then he's one of the most courageous of the Order
I'm confused. I thought one had to be dead in order to be turned into an Inferi. AKing someone would seem to make that possibility more rather than less likely. Please explain ...
What is tragic death?
This reminds me of a scene from Educating Rita, in which Michael Caine's character explains the difference between an event that is a tragedy and one that is "merely" (his word) tragic. In a nutshell, he explains that the death of a hero who is doomed by his own tragic flaw (Macbeth, in this case) is a tragedy. On the other hand, the death of a man who is killed when a tree falls on him is "merely" tragic. Question: Does Snape have a tragic flaw, and, if he does, what is it? I want to pursue this farther, but I must go to work now. Alas ... earwax!
Solitaire
wynnleaf - Apr 28, 2006 6:42 am (#1979 of 2969)
I'm confused. I thought one had to be dead in order to be turned into an Inferi. AKing someone would seem to make that possibility more rather than less likely. Please explain ...
I don't know...I was just referring to an example somebody gave that perhaps the cave liquids that DD drank would have killed him eventually and turned him into an Inferi, and that he somehow communicated that to Snape and so Snape's AKing him was basically okay because DD was dying anyway, and was now saved from becoming an inferi. Just someone's theory, but I wanted an example of reasons Snape could have killed DD for a "good" reason.
On tragic death, that's an interesting topic. I'll have to think more about it.
journeymom - Apr 28, 2006 8:24 am (#1980 of 2969)
This is a fruitful thread today, indeed.
""It's time for that generation's saga to end." -Journeymom
Given that I'm quite a bit older than Severus/James/Remus et.al, I'd like to think that the saga will go on for a few more decades!
But you're probably right, Journeymom. " -Winlia Well, I turned 38 yesterday, their age, and even by muggle standards I don't feel like I'm going to pop off anytime soon! But I wasn't saying they all have to die. Though I personally hope Peter dies, and painfully. I don't see Lupin dying; as somebody else said, he's a link to the younger generation, with Tonks.
"Additionally, given all the references to DD aging, and to his blackened hand, it may be that Severus is better able to fight LV going forward. Magic Words speaks of him becoming more sympathetic as the books go on; I think his power as a wizard also increases. Or his power is highlighted more. If DD felt that Snape was more capable of fighting LV, he wuld certainly want him to be the one to survive."
Hm, yes. Once again we need to remember the story is told through Harry's glasses. Snape's performance on the astronomy tower was commanding. Except that he kind of lost it with Harry at the gates of Hogwarts, (understandably, in my opinion) he was in control. And I concluded that Snape is one powerful bad $$@ wizard.
"Wynnleaf Maybe it's the Alan Rickman factor, but I don't see Snape as being too miserable as an adult. He seems to fit in reasonably well at Hogwarts. I don't think he was weak as a child/teen either; just an outcast. "
Just read some of the many, many post-final battle Snape fan fics. Snape carries on just fine. He marries Hermione. He marries Tonks. He marries some completely origional character. He sets up his own potions shop. He leaves Britain for Australia or Spain. He leaves Britain for a remote lake in Canada. He finds out about a long lost child. He discovers he does like children, as long as they're his own, and ends up having a whole passle of them. He becomes the next Dark Lord. The possibilities are endless!
"However, there still remains the fact that Snape is partly responsible for James and Lily's deaths and there's absolutely nothing he can do to give Harry his parents back. I've noticed also that this particular fact often tends to be left out of the discussions which mostly mention Snape killing DD and whether he needs to be redeemed for that. But I do believe that the role he played in Harry's parents' deaths - and Harry becoming the target for Voldemort - is IMO what Snape mainly has to redeem himself for. And since what he's done had extreme consequences for Harry and his life, Snape might pay the extreme price himself to make up for it. "
Isn't Harry responsible for Dd's death as well? Assuming that wasn't Draught of Living Death he forced down Dd's throat, Harry poisoned him, and it looked fairly painful. If this is the case, then Harry needs to realize this and reconsider Snape's part in his parents deaths in that light. (If Dd is dead) Harry is just as culpable for Dd's death as Snape is. He's going to feel awful for that. Am I missing something with that scenario?
"Whether Snape has to die or not... it's not that I think that he -has to-; it's more that I personally can't really see much room for growth in his character. I just don't know if Snape is really capable of ever resolving his issues and finding some sort of peace, or changing his attitude towards Harry. I'd like him to survive, personally, but I'm not sure at all if that will happen." -Saracene
I agree. Though I think for literary perposes Snape will die. It's not Snape that has to change at this point, it's Harry that does. Though I'd like it if Snape would. And I sure as heck don't think Harry has to love him in order to defeat Voldemort. He mearly needs to acknowledge Snape's contribution and forgive him for his part in his parents deaths.
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Soul Search - Apr 28, 2006 8:29 am (#1981 of 2969)
Edited Apr 28, 2006 9:32 am
HBP confirmed a nagging suspicion that I had missed the major storyline of the whole Harry Potter series. There is, of course, a "good" versus "evil," Harry versus Voldemort, story, but is that really the point of the series?
We learn of Voldemort in the first chapter of SS. He is evil. Voldemort appears briefly over the next five books, but the character doesn't develop any further. He is evil, always has been evil, and always will be evil. Harry has to "defeat" him. Simple.
On the other hand, Severus Snape and the relationship between he and Harry is developed over all six of the books. The relationship is quite complex, as the thousands of posts on this topic confirm.
Snape is even the title character in HBP. We see more of Snape and Harry/Snape than any character outside the trio. Snape's character is developed as well as any, including the trio. The relationship between Harry and Snape is just as well developed as the Harry/Ron/Hermione relationship.
The main theme of the Harry Potter series is the relationship between Harry and Snape. Voldemort is just background.
Book seven will focus on this relationship.
At the end of HBP, Harry thought that all his protectors were gone. He was wrong; he has one left.
journeymom - Apr 28, 2006 8:37 am (#1982 of 2969)
Oooh, good, Soul Search. With this way of thinking, Voldemort is simply a force to move the plot along.
wynnleaf - Apr 28, 2006 8:53 am (#1983 of 2969)
Edited Apr 28, 2006 9:54 am
Wow, Soul Search, that's an interesting point of view. I have felt like that myself, but I always just assumed it was because I had this obsession ! But you make me wonder if maybe this really is the way JKR was going. She seemed, in one interview, so very satisfied that Harry's hatred for Snape has become more personal by the end of HBP. She obviously wanted that to happen. Why? She's clearly got more plans for this relationship.
Magic Words - Apr 28, 2006 9:24 am (#1984 of 2969)
I confess I didn't become that interested in Snape until book 4 and not obsessed until book 6 - I'll have to reread the earlier ones with that in mind, Soul Search.
As far as the generations go, I certainly don't think JKR will kill off all the adults to make room for Harry's generation. But if you look at Harry's generation and Snape/Marauders', there are a lot of parallels and a lot of influence. The first war set up for the second, and part of Harry's job is to fix their mistakes. I think it makes sense for us to see his parents' generation making way for his, and in that case Snape, Lupin, and Pettigrew would go.
“If JKR has Harry and Severus find some sort of peace/resolution prior to Harry facing LV, then it could be possible for Severus to die and yet still have the character have achieved some sort of growth and resolution of conflict. On the other hand, if they reach that peace/resolution prior to Harry's facing LV, it might not be so thematically important to kill off Snape.” –Wynnleaf
I agree that Snape revealing the prophecy and killing DD don't necessarily mean he has to die from a thematic standpoint, any more than Harry has to die for giving DD that potion. I'm more concerned about the practical standpoint. Even if he earns Harry's trust in the next book, I don't think he can regain the trust of the Order or Hogwarts staff. Dumbledore was the only reason he could work with them in the first place and the only one who kept him out of Azkaban after the first war. I really do not want to see him survive only to be convicted of murder and Death Eater activities and given a life sentence because people don't accept Harry's word the way they did Dumbledore's. I think he will reconcile with Harry (and the trio and DA by extension), but it will take his death to convince everyone else.
Snape's tragic flaw.... an interesting question. I would say his biggest flaw is his phenomenal ability to hold onto grudges. Hard to say how it leads to his downfall, though. Maybe we'll find out that this in some way contributed to his joining the Death Eaters.
Saracene - Apr 28, 2006 7:12 pm (#1985 of 2969)
"Isn't Harry responsible for Dd's death as well? Assuming that wasn't Draught of Living Death he forced down Dd's throat, Harry poisoned him, and it looked fairly painful. If this is the case, then Harry needs to realize this and reconsider Snape's part in his parents deaths in that light."
That's assuming that the liquid that DD drank in that cave was poison and that Dumbledore was dying from it - but we in fact don't know that.
And I'd say that there's a huge difference between Harry forcing the liquid down DD's throat on DD's own orders, and Snape hurrying back to tell Voldemort about the prophecy which would send Voldemort hunting after some unfortunate baby.
I agree that Snape/Harry relationship is important, but I don't know if it's -the- main theme of the series or if Harry vs. Voldemort is just background. Voldemort after all is the chief villain of the series and has been Harry's adversary since book one; four books in the series have culminated in some sort of meeting/showdown between Harry and Voldemort. At the end of HBP Harry sees finding Horcruxes and killing Voldemort as his main objective - whereas taking revenge on Snape is something of a secondary importance; something to accomplish if Harry meets Snape along the way.
winlia - Apr 28, 2006 7:30 pm (#1986 of 2969)
Edited Apr 28, 2006 9:26 pm
Very interesting, Soul Search. I think you're right, Harry and Snape's relationship will be a central point of the last book. Even the youngest readers must know that Harry will defeat LV, but the end of book 6 with the Snape as a good guy versus bad guy issue must be a colossal cliff-hanger for the younger set.
I've read many posts saying that Harry will have a hard time forgiving Snape, but I don't agree. Harry is a kind-hearted, em pathetic soul. He's just reeling from all the loss that he's suffered, most recently Sirius and DD, and Snape is a handy target. DD, in his wisdom, has probably left some sort of message exonerating Snape, and once Harry gets a little distance from the situation, he'll be able sort out his feelings and not heap more blame on Snape than Snape deserves. Whether he lives or dies, I think Snape will ultimately be in good standing with the Order and the Wizarding World.
Harry and Snape's attitudes toward each other remind me of the so-called halo effect that managers are warned against: good employees do no wrong, and ineffective or problem employees never do anything right!
I think JRK has given us two keys to Snape's hatred of James: the Worst Memory, and the fact that Harry, a cool kid, likes the Half-Blood Prince a great deal until he finds out his identity. I think the message is that life would have gone better for Snape if James had not singled him out as an object of scorn. Maybe not even lead to DE membership.
Snape needs to learn to be more like Harry and rise above his difficult beg innings. It may be this element of Harry's character that Snape envies, and therefore hates, the most.
edit: Happy Birthday, journeymom!
Laura W - Apr 29, 2006 1:31 am (#1987 of 2969)
Edited Apr 29, 2006 2:35 am
"It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." CoS, p245 (Cdn edition)
Harry had a horrible childhood, and Snape - we are led to believe - had a horrible childhood. Harry was ridiculed and shunned in school by fellow students who thought he was a nutter or an attention-seeking show off in OotP and was bullied by Draco Malfoy for six years, and Snape was made fun of and possibly bullied in school by Sirius and James in particular (and probably others) because of his unappealing appearance and his general oddness. Well, I think you see what I am getting at.
The difference between the two is the choices they made. As I see it, in many ways Snape has never progressed beyond the 16-year-old boy who had a nasty, dangerous trick played upon him by Sirius Black. When people have been repeatedly physically or psychologically hurt early in their lives, some (ie - Snape) carry on this behavior towards others, and some become especially kind and loving because they know what it's like to be the recipient of physical or psychological pain (DD seems to believe Harry falls into this category). It's a choice.
By the way, I think it's really too bad that Snape has chosen to be how he is: bitter, belittling students (Harry, Neville, Hermoine), holding on to old grudges like they are old love letters, refusing to allow himself any happiness or joy in life or heat (both his office and his house have no fires in the fireplaces).
More's the pity because I honestly feel that Severus Snape has so much to offer. I have a gut feeling he is very smart and very brave and a very talented wizard and the way he puts words together has always struck me as being almost poetic. (There, I've said it!)
Snape is prejudiced against Harry from day one because of James, and Harry is determined to see only bad in Snape. Both are being unfair. The difference is that Snape is a grown man and Harry is a boy! We are not talking about an even playing field in terms of maturity and judgement and personal responsibility! The bulk of the accountability here lies with Professor Snape.
Well, from this post, I'm sure you can all safely conclude that I am NOT a professional psychologist or some such (sheepish grin). But this is how I see things, rightly or wrongly.
Laura (feeling a bit exposed now)
Ann - Apr 29, 2006 2:26 am (#1988 of 2969)
Edited Apr 29, 2006 3:26 am
Laura, you've put it very well, and your observation about the fireplaces is brilliant. The Dursley's have no fire in their fireplace either--until Arthur Weasley lights it. I think you may be on to something.
The only real quibble I have is that you're saying Harry's unfairness to Snape is forgivable because he's only a boy. That may be true psychologically in "real life" (although at 16 one should be starting to take a bit of responsibility for one's prejudices), but I don't think it is at all true of the hero in a work of literature. As I said above, I think it is going to be Harry's responsibility to forgive Snape all his horribleness, if the series is to work out to a satisfying conclusion. In life, Snape ought to be the one to make the peace (or not offend in the first place, of course). But Harry will not be a satisfactory hero unless he lets go of the hatred and prejudice that he has cultivated. He is going have to learn to take a broader view (and I suspect the catalyst will be learning about Snape's relationship with his mother, whatever it was). Literature, after all, is about the hero's spiritual development.
I agree with you very strongly about the parallels between Harry and Snape. But I think Harry's childhood may have been in some ways less horrible than Snape's--at least in its effects on him. The Dursleys are despicable, but their treatment of Harry is so cartoonishly awful that by age ten he's already developed the ability to laugh at them. He has an ironic distance from them that prevents him from feeling really bad about how they treat him or what they say to him. This is, in some ways, the most improbable thing in the whole series--I'm not sure his first 18 months in a loving family would be sufficient to give him the confidence to develop this attitude. It's at the heart of his ability to love, and I don't think it's really a choice--it's a blessing. As Dumbledore points out, the Dursleys have done far worse damage to Dudley than to Harry--though not for want of trying. Harry can be hurt by them, of course (his rage at Aunt Marge and his unhappiness show that), but not really deeply, since he does not love or respect them. He can take comfort in the fact that they aren't his parents.
Snape's childhood miseries may be more like Dudley's in that his relatives probably have a far greater capacity to hurt him. The hook-nosed man yelling at the woman (presumably his mother) in his memory seems more likely to be one of his uncles or even a grandparent than his father, I think, but there's someone in his (magical) family who's horrible enough to teach Dark spells to an eleven-year-old, and I don't think he probably found that person's horribleness as easy to dismiss as Harry finds it to dismiss the Dursleys.
journeymom - Apr 29, 2006 7:56 am (#1989 of 2969)
Edited Apr 29, 2006 8:58 am
Thanks, winlia!
Laura, grudges like love letters... That's a fabulous turn of phrase. 5 points to your House.
JKR said that Snape is sort of even more culpable than Voldemort, as he was loved by at least one other person. (I guess she implies with that that Voldemort was never loved by anyone.)
I know it's possible the hook-nosed man is not Severus's father, but I always figured he was. Regardless, that might be key as to why Harry is able to laugh off the Dursley's pathetic behavior while Severus cannot. The Dursleys weren't his parents. It's pretty hurtful to find out your own mother cannot protect herself or you from abuse, even if it's just verbal. And in that regard it would just gall that his mother was a witch and his father a muggle.
Isn't that a story! The story of Eileen Prince and Tobias Snape. How in the world did they get together?
Soul Search - Apr 29, 2006 8:02 am (#1990 of 2969)
I don't think we can attribute Snape's treatment of Harry solely on Harry being James' son.
In the SS potions class Snape taunts "our new celebrity," then goes on to show the class, and more importantly Harry, that Harry is nothing special. He reiterates this theme in HBP, "Spinner's End."
Snape knows, from the part of the prophecy he heard, that Harry is special. And that is Snape's problem; Harry, a wizarding nobody, really, is so "special," and will defeat the Dark Lord, where as he, Snape, who has studied the dark arts and risked everything to conquer Voldemort, can only "help" Harry.
The fact that Harry is his enemy's son only makes it rancor more.
wynnleaf - Apr 29, 2006 8:19 am (#1991 of 2969)
Edited Apr 29, 2006 9:22 am
JKR said that Snape is sort of even more culpable than Voldemort, as he was loved by at least one other person. (I guess she implies with that that Voldemort was never loved by anyone.)
I know I've mentioned this before, but I'll do it again. I think we readers often assume that JKR was simply referring to someone loving Snape (like his mom, maybe), and his being somehow more "culpable" for bad decisions because he's experienced love in a way LV hasn't.
That could be just what JKR meant.
But I'm struck by a way that we know Severus has experienced the actions of love through the way DD has treated him. I don't mean "love" as in sweet and nice feelings. But DD has forgiven Severus, placed trust in him, expected good things out him -- all aspects of types of love. And DD did this despite the really awful decisions Severus had made in the past. Yet when faced with a similar opportunity to forgive others (the Maruaders), place trust in others, expect better things of them, etc., Severus cannot do this. In this regard, I would consider Snape's unwillingness to demonstrate those actions of love toward the Maruaders as particularly culpable because he has already had those actions so clearly demonstrated and directed toward him.
A similar situation may exist with Lily. If Lily showed any kind of love toward Severus (I'll assume the love of friendship, as that's less controversial), he is more culpable in his treatment of Harry, because he would have received love/friendship from Lily, but would not extend it to Harry.
As regards Harry compared to Severus, DD does comment on the amazing nature of Harry's ability to love in spite of his upbringing. Harry's ability to love is not spectacularly different from many, but it is noteworthy considering the lack of love he received as a young child. On the other hand, I agree with Ann's comments that there were likely some real differences in Harry and Severus' childhoods that helped to enable Harry to distance himself emotionally from the Dursleys in a way that Severus could not. And then, at Hogwarts, Harry appears to have developed more true friends than Severus. We really never hear of any friend of Severus' other than Lucius, who was actually a number of years older and would likely not have been a friend while in school.
Added to that is that there are real differences between the Gryffindors and Slytherins. From what I've seen, just being in Gryffindor, instead of Slytherin, helped Harry get a certain amount of emotional support that he wouldn't have had in Slytherin.
journeymom - Apr 29, 2006 4:33 pm (#1992 of 2969)
wynnleaf, that's an excellent point about Dd's, well, 'care' for Snape. We presume he forgave him and he clearly gave him a second chance. So yes, Snape certainly should show the same consideration to James's son.
winlia - Apr 29, 2006 4:53 pm (#1993 of 2969)
Edited Apr 29, 2006 7:08 pm
I suspect that DD was as much a father figure to Severus as he was to Harry. His influence, as well as that of Severus' colleagues at Hogwarts, should have gone a long way to helping the adult Severus move past any emotional damage done by his upbringing and his lack of popularity as a Hogwart's student. Even so, Severus' emotional development seems stalled.
If Severus is 38 or so, and he spent seven years at Hogwarts as a student and another sixteen as a staff member, than he's spent 60% of his life there. That's a high percentage of time given that he's nearly middle-aged. (I'm 47. To those of you under 25, I'm sure he is middle-aged. No wonder he's steeped in memories of the Mauraders. He hasn't experienced much else beyond the rivalries and confinement of a boarding school. Maybe that's why DD gave him the DADA job. If DD and Severus knew that Voldemort would return, it would make sense for Severus to stay at Hogwarts until the final showdown. DD may have felt that leaving is what Severus needs to grow emotionally, and that the time has finally come. (Providing Severus survives LV, of course. I have my fingers crossed.)
I don't think Severus needs to forgive the Mauraders as much as he just needs to move on. In the beginning of HBP, Harry reflects that he is being escorted into Hogwarts by the one person who doesn't regret that Sirius died. I doubt many people would mourn the death of someone who tormented them and pulled a prank that almost got them killed.
I've had one more random thought. I've always been very impressed by the Worst Memory scene. I think JKR deftly painted a picture of Severus' adolescence and told us all that we needed to know. It has occurred to me that that scene must be nearly as painful, if not more so, for Harry as it is for Snape. Harry has so little of his parents, and one of the few things that he has is a clear view of his father being less than kind. I'm sure what takes place in that memory taints the view of his mother as well, even though her words and actions are blameless.
Laura W - Apr 29, 2006 5:15 pm (#1994 of 2969)
Edited Apr 29, 2006 6:24 pm
Thanks for the compliments, Ann and journeymom. (Blushing like Dumbledore when Madam Pomphrey told him she liked his earmuffs.)
"Isn't that a story! The story of Eileen Prince and Tobias Snape. How in the world did they get together?"
Yeah, journeymom, I'd like to hear that story too. I wouldn't be surprised if it is told in Book 7.
Laura
Laura W - Apr 30, 2006 3:45 am (#1995 of 2969)
Edited Apr 30, 2006 4:54 am
Two points, if I may --
1. wynnleaf wrote: " But I'm struck by a way that we know Severus has experienced the actions of love through the way DD has treated him. ... DD has forgiven Severus, placed trust in him, expected good things out him .... And DD did this despite the really awful decisions Severus had made in the past. Yet when faced with a similar opportunity to forgive others (the Maruaders), place trust in others, expect better things of them, etc., Severus cannot do this. In this regard, I would consider Snape's unwillingness to demonstrate those actions of love toward the Maruaders as particularly culpable because he has already had those actions so clearly demonstrated and directed toward him."
Dumbledore, too, apparently felt that Severus would react to his (DD's) faith and kindness by showing faith and kindness towards others. Alas, it was not to be. As Dumbledore said in OoP, when talking to Harry about the failed Occlumency lessons (chapter, The Lost Prophecy):
"I trust Severus Snape. But I forgot - another old man's mistake - that some wounds run too deep for healing. I thought Professor Snape could overcome his feelings about your father - I was wrong."
2. Ann wrote: " But Harry will not be a satisfactory hero unless he lets go of the hatred and prejudice that he has cultivated. He is going have to learn to take a broader view (and I suspect the catalyst will be learning about Snape's relationship with his mother, whatever it was)."
Firstly, I have never been a subscriber to that whole Snape-Lily thing (in their fifth year he called her a "filthy little Mudblood," for heaven's sake!). Putting that aside, however, I hardly think that the knowledge that Snape had any warm feelings - or more than that - for Lily would endear him to Harry. Quite the opposite.
Remember in PoA when Harry and Hermoine are watching the events that took place in the past (Hemoine's Secret, p 296, Cdn. edition) - thanks to the Time Turner - and Harry's reaction when Snape touched the Invisibility Cloak?
"Harry's fists clenched as they watched Snape skid to a halt next to the tree, looking around. He grabbed the Cloak and held it up. 'Get your filthy hands off it,' Harry snarled under his breath."
If that's how strongly he feels about Severus merely touching James' magic cloak, think how he would feel about any positive touching - physically or emotionally - between Severus and James' wife!
Laura
winlia - Apr 30, 2006 7:29 am (#1996 of 2969)
Laura,
I don't think there's any doubt that Snape should have put his past behind him by now. He should be kinder and better able to relate to people, especially in his line of work. The question is, do we as readers want to see him punished for his lack of maturity and fairness, or do we have enough sympathy for him to want his character to grow? (Since he's a fictional character, we don't have to be constrained by being nice ourselves. We're free to hope that JKR deals with him harshly.) I think an argument can be made for either case, which is probably one of the things that keeps this thread running!
We've talked about the bad-boy syndrome, where girls fall for unsuitable guys. There are certainly many people who marry thinking that they can change their spouses only to be bitterly disappointed. But even though it seems that many personality traits are set, people do continue to grow emotionally as they age. Usually not huge changes, but changes nevertheless. At 47, I like to think I'm wiser in my interpersonal relationships than I was at 37, likewise at 27, and I don't even want to talk about 17! And I'm certainly not the only one. Like Snape, I've worked at the same place for 16 years, and I've seen my coworker change, usually, but not always, for the better. My husband, too, has grown wiser over the years, but I attribute that to being married to me.
Although the circumstances of the HP world are extreme compared to real life, being stuck in the past isn't that uncommon. For example, I've know two people who are dissatisfied and embittered because they don't earn as much money as one of their siblings. I have a friend who still pines for her high-school boyfriend, even though she's in her late 40's.
Ann - Apr 30, 2006 11:38 am (#1997 of 2969)
Edited Apr 30, 2006 12:39 pm
Laura, I agree that Harry's view of Snape would not be improved by knowing that Snape loved (and I think it is loved) Harry's mother. But I think that after an initial period of being shocked and repulsed, the news that his mother loved Snape (if only as Hermione loves Harry), might make him think twice about the man. Yes, Snape called her a horrible name in a moment of stress and mortification, but there's a reason that JKR calls that chapter "Snape's Worst Memory." It's the moment he betrayed someone who loved him. That stunned blink says it all.
Magic Words - Apr 30, 2006 11:46 am (#1998 of 2969)
Edited Apr 30, 2006 12:47 pm
Winlia, good points. I don't know about everyone else here, but "moving on" is pretty much what I mean when I say forgive, so we agree on that. And I definitely want to see character growth, not punishment. Hopefully you're right, and spending some time away from Hogwarts will help Snape do just that.
Laura, I understand where you're coming from with the Snape/Lily issue. My take on it, however, is that there's a reason the Mudblood comment is part of his "worst memory" - he lashed out in frustration and humiliation and later regretted it. And I'm sure Harry's initial reaction upon learning such a thing would be just as you described. But once he got used to the idea he might start to wonder, for instance, what his mother saw in Snape, and he would be a step closer to believing what Dumbledore said about his parents' deaths being Snape's greatest regret.
Edit: cross-posted with Ann, who says basically the same thing .
journeymom - Apr 30, 2006 11:54 am (#1999 of 2969)
Learning from Slughorn that Lily was good in potions made me wonder if Lily and Severus was lab partners. Severus's natural ability rubbed off on Lily a bit. They could simply have been respectful friends. Lily is compassionate and open, it seems like she would be friendly with Snape even if he was prickly.
I like the idea that Severus had once had feelings for Lily, but I won't be disappointed if it proves to be otherwise.
HungarianHorntail11 - Apr 30, 2006 1:42 pm (#2000 of 2969)
In SS, Snape tried to save Harry, though they assumed he was the one jinxing Harry. I do not recall Harry ever thanking him for that. I do not agree with Snape's behavior, but I, myself would feel inclined to at least say thank you, even if it rendered me vulnerable in the midst of someone such as Snape.
It leaves me curious as to whether Snape could save Harry and die in the process and it would finally occur to Harry to thank him but it would be too late. Hmm, growth with guilt - ouch.
Aimee Shawn - Apr 30, 2006 3:07 pm (#2001 of 2969)
I would like to know if Lily forgave Snape for the Mudblood comment. That would give Harry a concrete example of "moving on" from something you'd like to forget (and wish you could erase from the mind of others!) It would be interesting to see if they regained their former - for lack of better words - relationship, whatever it was.
Laura W - Apr 30, 2006 3:23 pm (#2002 of 2969)
Edited Apr 30, 2006 4:28 pm
"I don't think there's any doubt that Snape should have put his past behind him by now. He should be kinder and better able to relate to people, especially in his line of work. The question is, do we as readers want to see him punished for his lack of maturity and fairness, or do we have enough sympathy for him to want his character to grow?"
Well put, winlia. I guess this depends upon how harmful to others we perceive Snape's actions to be (ie - belittling and demeaning 11-year-old students in his care; telling V about the first part of the prophecy, which resulted in V finding and killing James and Lily; outing Lupin to the rest of the school; his constant cruel and cutting personal remarks to Sirius; etc). If Snape "grows" in book seven by doing something wonderful, does that wipe out all the terrible things he did - for those in this forum who think Snape did terrible things, that is: not all of us do, of course - in the previous six books?
That is my whole problem with the redemption issue. (See, wynnleaf, I brought it back to that! (grin)) You can carry on your life in a more desirable way than you have been, which is *certainly* to your credit, but in my book it does not wash away the conscious adult choices you made in the past which hurt or damaged other (particularly others who are innocent).
Also, in some ways I see Snape being punished right now. He is undoubtedly not a happy man. Frustrated in his job, seeing others probably less talented than he getting the coveted DADA position year after year (until book six); despised by his students (except for a few Slytherins); friendless in general - with the possible exception of slippery Lucius - because both sides of the war see him as their spy but are not sure, so they cannot fully trust him; not in a personal loving relationship; and generally feeling the burden of life without experiencing its joy. Still, a lot of this is his own making, in my view.
Magic Words wrote: "My take on it, however, is that there's a reason the Mudblood comment is part of his "worst memory" - he lashed out in frustration and humiliation and later regretted it."
Then you are a lot more charitable than I, Magic. I think it was his worst memory because he was humiliated by James on the school grounds in front of a large group of students (what with them all seeing his skinny legs and shabby underwear), and the only one who stood up for him was "that filthy Mudblood". It later became his worst memory again because Harry witnessed it.
And, by the way, there is no question that Harry ignores any good things that Snape has done (ie - saving his life in PS, informing the Order about Harry et al being in danger at the MOM in OoP, providing Wolfsbane Potion for Lupin in PoA, telling Crabbe to stop strangling Neville in OoP, giving Umbridge fake Veritaserum to put in Harry's tea in OoP), but again I attribute that to Harry's age. Severus doesn't have that excuse.
Laura
Tom Marvolo Riddleton - Apr 30, 2006 5:01 pm (#2003 of 2969)
Magic Words wrote: "My take on it, however, is that there's a reason the Mudblood comment is part of his "worst memory" - he lashed out in frustration and humiliation and later regretted it."
Then you are a lot more charitable than I, Magic. I think it was his worst memory because he was humiliated by James on the school grounds in front of a large group of students (what with them all seeing his skinny legs and shabby underwear), and the only one who stood up for him was "that filthy Mudblood". It later became his worst memory again because Harry witnessed it. - Laura W
I can't swallow what you've got to offer there, Laura. Consider this: Where was the memory? In the pensieve, was it not? Snape chose to remove this memory from his mind above many others that I doubt he really would have been to pleased with Harry seeing, such as the terrible childhood Harry got a glimpse of. It logically follows that Snape felt that this was his worst memory before Harry saw it. And I very seriously doubt that Snape's being targeted by James was an isolated incident. Thus, there was something special about this memory. Whether or not it was the fact that he called Lily a Mudblood, I don't know, but I like to think so.
Magic Words - Apr 30, 2006 6:11 pm (#2004 of 2969)
Has anyone else seen that editorial on Mugglenet entitled "Machiavelli's Half-Blood Prince?" I just found it, and frankly, I'm more worried now than I've been since my first read through HBP. If you haven't seen the article, it compares Snape with the Roman general Lucius Septimius Severus, who became emperor of Rome by making an alliance with one of his rivals, Albinus, in order to defeat a third rival (Niger), then turning around and killing Albinus and taking over Rome. I haven't read Machiavelli's "The Prince," but apparently it upholds Severus as a good example of how to seize and keep power. If anybody has evidence that JKR is not patterning Snape on Severus, I would be grateful to hear it. I'd hate to start thinking I was THAT wrong....
wynnleaf - Apr 30, 2006 7:59 pm (#2005 of 2969)
Edited Apr 30, 2006 9:00 pm
That is my whole problem with the redemption issue. (See, wynnleaf, I brought it back to that! (grin)) You can carry on your life in a more desirable way than you have been, which is *certainly* to your credit, but in my book it does not wash away the conscious adult choices you made in the past which hurt or damaged other (particularly others who are innocent).
When I spoke of Snape's inability to forgive the Marauders, or to extend to any of them the kinds of actions DD extended to him, I didn't mean it solely in the "putting the past behind," kind of way. He had to interact with Sirius and Lupin on a regular basis. Any "putting the past behind" would have also entailed actually putting into action a different way of behaving toward them. Of course, Sirius in no way changed his behavior either, and seemed to intentionally incite Snape toward anger. And Lupin lived up to Snape's suspicions of his weaknesses, so Snape's disdain for Lupin would seem to be affirmed at least in his own eyes. The thing is, DD kept seeing bad aspects of Snape, and yet continued to extend trust and forgiveness to him. Snape couldn't do that for others.
On the issue of calling Lily a Mudblood.... I don't know if that's the part that makes the pensieve scene his worst memory or not. But I do know one thing, I once called someone I love dearly a thoroughly BAD thing, solely because I was frightened he was about to drop a very heavy piano on my hands. And it never caused the slightest discomfort between us. Severus was in a very stressful, embarrassing, and also frightening (in the sense that worse could have happened in a moment), situation. Calling Lily a mudblood in the midst of that was really pretty minor, in my opinion. Of course, he may not have seen it that way -- but if they were friends, she should have seen it that way.
As regards Lucius Septimius Severus, I suggest reading up on his life. It was really all quite complicated and the whole thing with Clodius Albinus is really nothing like the JKR characters. Albinus, for instance, was placed by Severus in a junior position as a governor of sorts with the understanding that he'd be Severus' successor. At about the same time Niger was setting himself up as emperor although Severus was also acclaimed emperor in Rome. These were basically two rivals that were clearly going to fight for the right to be emperor. Once Niger was defeated Severus had more secure power, and declared his own son his successor. Seems natural to me, but Albinus took offence (he was probably meant to take offense), and Albinus moved on Rome to fight Severus -- note: Albinus moved on Rome. A war started which Severus eventually won. Albinus probably committed suicide, although he may have been murdered (not by Severus).
Sure "Severus" "Albinus" and "Niger" (black, aka dark???), bear a resemblence to Albus, the Dark Lord, and Severus. But the stories don't seem much alike, especially with Albinus being subordinate to Severus. And there was never any question about Severus serving either Niger or Albinus, more like the opposite.
I guess that means I don't see much in the comparison. Anyhow, a lot of what Machiavelli says isn't half bad, you know.
Laura W - May 1, 2006 2:05 am (#2006 of 2969)
"That is my whole problem with the redemption issue. (See, wynnleaf, I brought it back to that! (grin))"
When I wrote that, I was referring to what wynnleaf wrote in posts #1972 and #1977, which dealt specifically with Snape's redemption.
Magic Words - May 1, 2006 7:08 am (#2007 of 2969)
Thanks, Wynnleaf. I looked it up in a couple different sources and I guess it didn't happen quite the way Machiavelli describes (also found a translation of that part of "The Prince," and he definitely leaves out the part where Albinus moves on Rome). Maybe that means something, the fact that the story being circulated isn't exactly accurate.... maybe I'm thinking way too much about this....
Nathan Zimmermann - May 1, 2006 7:33 am (#2008 of 2969)
Edited May 1, 2006 8:44 am
Magic Words, I would assert that in narrow context Severus could be viewed as having a Machiavellian nature for example, I would argue that the teaching style of Severus Snape is congruent with the Machiavellian principle that it is better to be feared rather than loved.
In so far as Severus draws strength from the fear he inspires. The manner in which he deals with his students demonstrates this ideal because, he projects the image of the stern task master in order to ensure that his power and decisions are not questioned by his students.
The classroom door opened as she spoke, and Snape stepped into the corridor, his sallow face framed as ever by two curtains of greasy black hair. Silence fell over the queue immediately. "Inside," he said. (HBP large print edition page 231)
wynnleaf - May 1, 2006 9:57 am (#2009 of 2969)
Edited May 1, 2006 10:58 am
In partial reaction to the mugglenet article....
Magic Words, I would assert that in narrow context Severus could be viewed as having a Machiavellian nature for example, I would argue that the teaching style of Severus Snape is congruent with the Machiavellian principle that it is better to be feared rather than loved.
While I quite agree with Nathan's comment above, I'd think that if Snape were trying to follow Machiavellian strategies and play LV and DD off against each other in order to take over after they fall, he failed miserably. First, he got into a situation where no one was supporting his cause; instead he was working to support the causes of two masters. He has not drawn, as far as we know, one single DE, auror, or Order member -- or any other wizard or witch -- to his personal support. Even those that did trust him and could have been possible supporters (Draco on the darker side, Order members following DD's lead on the light side), no longer trust him and would not support him.
Just how is this guy supposed to "take over" once his supposed machinations bring down both DD and LV? He has none of the powers of LV to lure others into his service and he has no power base with which to "take over" anyone.
While the emperor Severus had a power base to work from, Severus Snape has no power base whatsoever.
Honestly, if this were Machiavelli 101, I'd say he failed.
In our search for the hidden clues with which to figure out the future of the plot, there are some readers who hope to find some hidden pattern lurking in a game, a philosophy, history, other literature, where they will find JKR's plans systematically reflecting that earlier pattern. My guess is that in reality, JKR uses chess, alchemy, history, religious themes, literary themes, myth, and yes, even Machiavelli and the Severus and Albinus of history to piece together her own plot. But just because we can see glimmers of her sources doesn't mean that her plots will follow any of the source material so directly that we can predict either her plots or characters.
rambkowalczyk - May 1, 2006 10:49 am (#2010 of 2969)
Edited May 1, 2006 11:52 am
On the Machiavelli thing, I think Snape is more complex than to just be in it for himself. Below are my ideas supporting this.
In the past this thread has numerous comments on how Snape wants the respect of others.
It has been said that Dumbledore respects Snape because he listens to him. Snape provides valuable information to the order.
On the other hand so does Voldemort. It was Vulture who pointed out in Spinner's End that Voldemort considers Snape useful and as of that point in time he was more useful than Lucius and Bella. At that point Snape might be tied with Peter Pettigrew who was instrumental in bringing him back to his body.
But from Voldemort's point of view what has either done for him lately? Voldemort's respect is obviously an illusion as he only cares for himself and sees people only a means to his end. The 64 galleon question is does Snape see Voldemort's respect as only an illusion or does he want it so badly that an illusion is better than nothing at all?
We know that Dumbledore's respect is the real thing, but I think Snape is having his doubts. Dumbledore has told Harry that only Dumbledore and Harry know the second half of the prophecy. This means that Snape doesn't know it. Logically Snape knows it isn't a good idea for him to know the full prophecy but emotionally he may think Dumbledore is holding back because Dumbledore no longer trust him.
Many posters have stated that Snape is acting emotionally like a teenager. Snape may see position of closeness to authority figures as a direct proportion to respect. As of June of 96, he was as close as anyone could expect to Voldemort. The only person who could get closer is Harry (Dumbledore alludes to this in HBP Horcruxes) and Harry isn't even tempted.
Snape's closeness to Dumbledore also puts him in a position of respect, but he has rivals. First there is McGonagall but this rivalry seems friendly but this is probably because Dumbledore does not rely on her when his life is in danger from whatever curse was on the Marvello Ring. Then there is Harry.
How does Snape feel about Harry getting private lessons from Dumbledore? Especially when it interrupts Harry's detention with Snape. How did he feel when it was Harry that accompanied Dumbledore on his mission and not him. How would he have felt if it was Dumbledore teaching Harry Occlumency instead of him? Was he sulking in the dungeon waiting for Dumbledore to return knowing he was going to have to clean up whatever mess that was made? Is this the sort of thing that Snape meant when he told Dumbledore he was taking him for granted.
I still think that Snape is on the side of good, but he does have this character flaw with all the makings of a death that would be tragedy as defined by Solitaire.
Tom Marvolo Riddleton - May 1, 2006 4:40 pm (#2011 of 2969)
But I do know one thing, I once called someone I love dearly a thoroughly BAD thing, solely because I was frightened he was about to drop a very heavy piano on my hands. And it never caused the slightest discomfort between us. Severus was in a very stressful, embarrassing, and also frightening (in the sense that worse could have happened in a moment), situation. Calling Lily a Mudblood in the midst of that was really pretty minor, in my opinion. Of course, he may not have seen it that way -- but if they were friends, she should have seen it that way. -wynnleaf
Out of curiosity (stop me if I'm prying), did the person who almost dropped a piano on your hands seem to love you as much as you loved? I only ask because I doubt that Lily loved Snape like it could have been in your scenario, and thus a simple name calling could have been blown way out of proportion much more easily. Spitefully insulting my heritage when I was trying to help someone might cause a niche in our relationship. Nobody can say for sure yet, but that may have been the moment that forever destroyed the possibility of Snape hooking up with Lily. (I don't say all this just to contradict you; I just really need to find a better reason for that memory to be Snape's worse than "James made fun of him.")
Ann - May 1, 2006 5:16 pm (#2012 of 2969)
My take on Snape's Worst Memory: I cannot believe that an adult's worst memory would ever be a childhood humiliation. In fact, I think if it had only been the humiliation, I think Snape would have treasured the memory as evidence that the Marauders were as horrible as he thought they were. As even Harry sees it, they are horrible to him. (Haven't we all wished that an enemy would do something so egregiously awful that we could hate them without any guilt at all?)
What makes something a really bad memory is not what others have done to us--things we could not help--but our own shameful acts. I believe quite firmly that JKR has camouflaged the worst part (Snape's insult to Lily) with the horrible humiliation visited on Snape by the Marauders.
I agree that a real friend (and sources seem to agree that Lily was a nice person and a firm friend) would hold such an insult, particularly an insult tossed off in such a stressful situation, against someone forever. After all, Mudblood is not an insult that would have any resonance in the culture she grew up in. So I don't think that it was Lily that destroyed the friendship, but Snape, who would have been so sure she could never forgive him that he would have rejected her first.
Die Zimtzicke - May 1, 2006 5:16 pm (#2013 of 2969)
I still think it's too simplistic to expect Snape to be good, or bad. He's the most gray character we've got, in my opinion. He may well be neither totally on Voldemort's side, or the Orders'. He's (possibly) more likely to be on his own side.
Why does everyone have to be one thing or the other? That's just not the way of the world. Why does it have to be so in a specific piece of literature?
Choices - May 1, 2006 5:56 pm (#2014 of 2969)
Edited May 1, 2006 6:57 pm
I agree with you Die. How anyone reacts to an insult is very personal and individual. It depends on what has happened to them in their background - what they are sensitive to. What may hurt me terribly, someone else might just shrug off without a second thought.
Nathan Zimmermann - May 1, 2006 7:02 pm (#2015 of 2969)
Edited May 1, 2006 8:20 pm
Rambkowalczyk, I agree Snape is a complex character and indeed it would be foolish to automatically assume that he is just in it for himself without an offer of proof. I merely assert that the style of teaching he employs is Machiavellian in nature. I am disinclined to extend the idea further because, there is insufficient evidence to enlarge the hypothesis further to embrace other aspects of Snape's character.
Having said that, I also agree that Severus Snape is neither wholly good, nor is he wholly evil. There are characters such as Voldemort, Bellatrix Black Lestrange, and Fenrir Greyback that approach the point at which a person becomes totally evil and is devoid of any consciousness nut, his actions in HBP demonstrate that Severus Snape has not approached that point.
Saracene - May 2, 2006 12:51 am (#2016 of 2969)
Actually, I'd say that childhood/teenage traumas - something that happens in the period when people and their emotions are at their most vulnerable - are very much likely to be an adult's worst memory.
And I think that the reason Snape would find this particular memory so painful is because in it he was powerless, humiliated and stripped of dignity. IMO he'd find this sort of situation terrible precisely because he was helpless to stop it. It's also telling that, prior to the memory, Snape called James arrogant and whatnot but -never- hinted that James bullied him - because to admit that you were bullied places you in a position of weakness and for Snape, with his pride, that would have been unbearable. I don't really subscribe to the theory that Snape's insult of Lily was what really made the memory his worst. Snape's reaction after he caught Harry out IMO suggests that this memory is all about James and what he did to him.
I also think that whatever connection there might have been between Snape and Lily - unrequited love, brief friendship, etc. - came into being after the Pensieve incident, probably somewhere in their sixth year. I just don't detect any intimate connection between Snape and Lily in the Pensieve scene at all. Lily, to me, doesn't feel like she's sticking up for a friend or even someone she likes; until Snape's insult her attention throughout the whole scene is focused squarely on James, she refers to Snape as "him" and "he". And Snape doesn't even speak to Lily when he insults her - his tirade is directed at James: "I don't need help from filthy little mudbloods like 'her'" (As opposed to 'you').
Re: Snape's good/bad position, I think that the most important thing is finding out exactly what part he played in Dumbledore's death. If, for instance, he betrayed and murdered Dumbledore - the only person who believed and trusted him - then in my book that makes him evil no matter whether he's supporting Voldemort or playing his own game. You can be evil and not serve Voldemort.
haymoni - May 2, 2006 3:49 am (#2017 of 2969)
I'm sorry, but I think we may be trivializing (is that a word??) the use of "Mudblood".
I thought it was possibly the worst thing you could call someone. All the reactions to that word have caused visible signs of shock and disgust.
I've said this before so I hope I'm not boring you. My theory is that Snape was Lily's Neville. Just as Hermione seemed to take Neville under her wing ever since the first train ride, perhaps Lily did the same with Snape.
It is possible that they lived near each other, but that doesn't necessarily have to be so for the theory to work. They become friends on the train - maybe Lily defends Snape if kids start teasing him. They get sorted into separate houses. Snape ends up with all these soon-to-be-Death-Eaters and picks up some of the pure-blood philosophy. He and Lily are still friends, but they grow apart over the years.
We get to Year 5 - James & Co. start hassling Snape - Lily comes to his defense - "What has he ever done to you?" - which makes me think she has defended him before. Snape is already embarrassed and the "Mudblood" comment slips out. Lily turns her back on her old friend and Snape realizes that with 1 word, he has lost her - as a friend and as possibly something more.
I just think calling someone "Mudblood" isn't the same as swearing at them or calling them "stupid" or some other insult. It is just about as low as you can go.
Soul Search - May 2, 2006 6:41 am (#2018 of 2969)
With all this disussion I thought I would review the "Snape's Worst Memory" scene in OotP.
First, Snape has borrowed Dumbledore's pensieve. When accepting that he would be teaching Harry occlumency Snape anticipated that Harry might see some of his memories, so he secured them in the pensieve. A few memories; more than just the one Harry saw. Snape secured the memories before every session; bit of a nuisance, that. Must have been really important that Harry didn't see those memories.
It might even be that Dumbledore suggested Snape secure some of his memories in the pensieve; for example, why he trusts Snape.
Just the concept that Snape has memories Harry really shouldn't see is interesting.
So, these are memories that Snape didn't want Harry to see. Or, maybe, memories that Dumbledore thought Harry shouldn't see.
Since the conflicts between James and Snape were ongoing and frequent, Snape's embarrassment probably wasn't why it was selected for the pensieve. So, why was it that Harry shouldn't see that particular memory?
Harry saw some spells being used that he later used in HBP. Probably not the reason, though.
Harry saw his mother. Harry learned that Snape knew her. She tried to protect Snape from James.
Snape called Lily a "Mudblood," even though he was a half-blood.
Lily said she wouldn't try to help Snape "in future."
Anything else?
None of this seems to be important enough to secure in a pensive. Either we don't know enough to recognize the significance of the scene or the really important part came after Harry was dragged from the pensive.
haymoni - May 2, 2006 6:56 am (#2019 of 2969)
I always wondered about the title of that chapter.
Who is it that thinks this is Snape's Worst Memory?
Harry? Snape? JKR?
It isn't "Snape's Worst Memories" - plural.
It isn't "Snivellus" - which would have been a great title!
SOMEBODY thinks that this is Snape's Worst Memory - worse than seeing his parents fight, worse than being alone zapping flies, worse than being almost killed by a werewolf.
I just don't think the humiliation part is the key. It has to be the relationship with Lily going down the tubes.
HungarianHorntail11 - May 2, 2006 7:08 am (#2020 of 2969)
Edited May 2, 2006 8:14 am
Greg, FWIW, I maintain that it was Snape's worst memory because it was the first communication between James and Lily (an 'ice breaker' of sorts). Though it may not have been the best manner in which to strike up a conversation, it was, nevertheless, a conversation. At that point, I think James was just happy to be speaking to her. The very last thing Snape would want is for her to be on speaking terms with James (of all people). Any terms of speaking allows for positive interaction.
Let us say that Snape did have a fondness for Lily and he helped her with potions. She did not have to like him back in the same way, but just be friends or chummy with him. (Gee, I never saw that back in my high school days!) Slughorn could have acknowledged her potions abilities in the same manner as he did Harry's, so who is to say she actually had such abilities on her own?
That being said, it seems as though Snape may have a 'penchant' for being used (Lily fans seething at this post). She may not even have done it with an awareness, but remember, she did have a knack for 'charms.'
Edited Apr 28, 2006 9:32 am
HBP confirmed a nagging suspicion that I had missed the major storyline of the whole Harry Potter series. There is, of course, a "good" versus "evil," Harry versus Voldemort, story, but is that really the point of the series?
We learn of Voldemort in the first chapter of SS. He is evil. Voldemort appears briefly over the next five books, but the character doesn't develop any further. He is evil, always has been evil, and always will be evil. Harry has to "defeat" him. Simple.
On the other hand, Severus Snape and the relationship between he and Harry is developed over all six of the books. The relationship is quite complex, as the thousands of posts on this topic confirm.
Snape is even the title character in HBP. We see more of Snape and Harry/Snape than any character outside the trio. Snape's character is developed as well as any, including the trio. The relationship between Harry and Snape is just as well developed as the Harry/Ron/Hermione relationship.
The main theme of the Harry Potter series is the relationship between Harry and Snape. Voldemort is just background.
Book seven will focus on this relationship.
At the end of HBP, Harry thought that all his protectors were gone. He was wrong; he has one left.
journeymom - Apr 28, 2006 8:37 am (#1982 of 2969)
Oooh, good, Soul Search. With this way of thinking, Voldemort is simply a force to move the plot along.
wynnleaf - Apr 28, 2006 8:53 am (#1983 of 2969)
Edited Apr 28, 2006 9:54 am
Wow, Soul Search, that's an interesting point of view. I have felt like that myself, but I always just assumed it was because I had this obsession ! But you make me wonder if maybe this really is the way JKR was going. She seemed, in one interview, so very satisfied that Harry's hatred for Snape has become more personal by the end of HBP. She obviously wanted that to happen. Why? She's clearly got more plans for this relationship.
Magic Words - Apr 28, 2006 9:24 am (#1984 of 2969)
I confess I didn't become that interested in Snape until book 4 and not obsessed until book 6 - I'll have to reread the earlier ones with that in mind, Soul Search.
As far as the generations go, I certainly don't think JKR will kill off all the adults to make room for Harry's generation. But if you look at Harry's generation and Snape/Marauders', there are a lot of parallels and a lot of influence. The first war set up for the second, and part of Harry's job is to fix their mistakes. I think it makes sense for us to see his parents' generation making way for his, and in that case Snape, Lupin, and Pettigrew would go.
“If JKR has Harry and Severus find some sort of peace/resolution prior to Harry facing LV, then it could be possible for Severus to die and yet still have the character have achieved some sort of growth and resolution of conflict. On the other hand, if they reach that peace/resolution prior to Harry's facing LV, it might not be so thematically important to kill off Snape.” –Wynnleaf
I agree that Snape revealing the prophecy and killing DD don't necessarily mean he has to die from a thematic standpoint, any more than Harry has to die for giving DD that potion. I'm more concerned about the practical standpoint. Even if he earns Harry's trust in the next book, I don't think he can regain the trust of the Order or Hogwarts staff. Dumbledore was the only reason he could work with them in the first place and the only one who kept him out of Azkaban after the first war. I really do not want to see him survive only to be convicted of murder and Death Eater activities and given a life sentence because people don't accept Harry's word the way they did Dumbledore's. I think he will reconcile with Harry (and the trio and DA by extension), but it will take his death to convince everyone else.
Snape's tragic flaw.... an interesting question. I would say his biggest flaw is his phenomenal ability to hold onto grudges. Hard to say how it leads to his downfall, though. Maybe we'll find out that this in some way contributed to his joining the Death Eaters.
Saracene - Apr 28, 2006 7:12 pm (#1985 of 2969)
"Isn't Harry responsible for Dd's death as well? Assuming that wasn't Draught of Living Death he forced down Dd's throat, Harry poisoned him, and it looked fairly painful. If this is the case, then Harry needs to realize this and reconsider Snape's part in his parents deaths in that light."
That's assuming that the liquid that DD drank in that cave was poison and that Dumbledore was dying from it - but we in fact don't know that.
And I'd say that there's a huge difference between Harry forcing the liquid down DD's throat on DD's own orders, and Snape hurrying back to tell Voldemort about the prophecy which would send Voldemort hunting after some unfortunate baby.
I agree that Snape/Harry relationship is important, but I don't know if it's -the- main theme of the series or if Harry vs. Voldemort is just background. Voldemort after all is the chief villain of the series and has been Harry's adversary since book one; four books in the series have culminated in some sort of meeting/showdown between Harry and Voldemort. At the end of HBP Harry sees finding Horcruxes and killing Voldemort as his main objective - whereas taking revenge on Snape is something of a secondary importance; something to accomplish if Harry meets Snape along the way.
winlia - Apr 28, 2006 7:30 pm (#1986 of 2969)
Edited Apr 28, 2006 9:26 pm
Very interesting, Soul Search. I think you're right, Harry and Snape's relationship will be a central point of the last book. Even the youngest readers must know that Harry will defeat LV, but the end of book 6 with the Snape as a good guy versus bad guy issue must be a colossal cliff-hanger for the younger set.
I've read many posts saying that Harry will have a hard time forgiving Snape, but I don't agree. Harry is a kind-hearted, em pathetic soul. He's just reeling from all the loss that he's suffered, most recently Sirius and DD, and Snape is a handy target. DD, in his wisdom, has probably left some sort of message exonerating Snape, and once Harry gets a little distance from the situation, he'll be able sort out his feelings and not heap more blame on Snape than Snape deserves. Whether he lives or dies, I think Snape will ultimately be in good standing with the Order and the Wizarding World.
Harry and Snape's attitudes toward each other remind me of the so-called halo effect that managers are warned against: good employees do no wrong, and ineffective or problem employees never do anything right!
I think JRK has given us two keys to Snape's hatred of James: the Worst Memory, and the fact that Harry, a cool kid, likes the Half-Blood Prince a great deal until he finds out his identity. I think the message is that life would have gone better for Snape if James had not singled him out as an object of scorn. Maybe not even lead to DE membership.
Snape needs to learn to be more like Harry and rise above his difficult beg innings. It may be this element of Harry's character that Snape envies, and therefore hates, the most.
edit: Happy Birthday, journeymom!
Laura W - Apr 29, 2006 1:31 am (#1987 of 2969)
Edited Apr 29, 2006 2:35 am
"It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." CoS, p245 (Cdn edition)
Harry had a horrible childhood, and Snape - we are led to believe - had a horrible childhood. Harry was ridiculed and shunned in school by fellow students who thought he was a nutter or an attention-seeking show off in OotP and was bullied by Draco Malfoy for six years, and Snape was made fun of and possibly bullied in school by Sirius and James in particular (and probably others) because of his unappealing appearance and his general oddness. Well, I think you see what I am getting at.
The difference between the two is the choices they made. As I see it, in many ways Snape has never progressed beyond the 16-year-old boy who had a nasty, dangerous trick played upon him by Sirius Black. When people have been repeatedly physically or psychologically hurt early in their lives, some (ie - Snape) carry on this behavior towards others, and some become especially kind and loving because they know what it's like to be the recipient of physical or psychological pain (DD seems to believe Harry falls into this category). It's a choice.
By the way, I think it's really too bad that Snape has chosen to be how he is: bitter, belittling students (Harry, Neville, Hermoine), holding on to old grudges like they are old love letters, refusing to allow himself any happiness or joy in life or heat (both his office and his house have no fires in the fireplaces).
More's the pity because I honestly feel that Severus Snape has so much to offer. I have a gut feeling he is very smart and very brave and a very talented wizard and the way he puts words together has always struck me as being almost poetic. (There, I've said it!)
Snape is prejudiced against Harry from day one because of James, and Harry is determined to see only bad in Snape. Both are being unfair. The difference is that Snape is a grown man and Harry is a boy! We are not talking about an even playing field in terms of maturity and judgement and personal responsibility! The bulk of the accountability here lies with Professor Snape.
Well, from this post, I'm sure you can all safely conclude that I am NOT a professional psychologist or some such (sheepish grin). But this is how I see things, rightly or wrongly.
Laura (feeling a bit exposed now)
Ann - Apr 29, 2006 2:26 am (#1988 of 2969)
Edited Apr 29, 2006 3:26 am
Laura, you've put it very well, and your observation about the fireplaces is brilliant. The Dursley's have no fire in their fireplace either--until Arthur Weasley lights it. I think you may be on to something.
The only real quibble I have is that you're saying Harry's unfairness to Snape is forgivable because he's only a boy. That may be true psychologically in "real life" (although at 16 one should be starting to take a bit of responsibility for one's prejudices), but I don't think it is at all true of the hero in a work of literature. As I said above, I think it is going to be Harry's responsibility to forgive Snape all his horribleness, if the series is to work out to a satisfying conclusion. In life, Snape ought to be the one to make the peace (or not offend in the first place, of course). But Harry will not be a satisfactory hero unless he lets go of the hatred and prejudice that he has cultivated. He is going have to learn to take a broader view (and I suspect the catalyst will be learning about Snape's relationship with his mother, whatever it was). Literature, after all, is about the hero's spiritual development.
I agree with you very strongly about the parallels between Harry and Snape. But I think Harry's childhood may have been in some ways less horrible than Snape's--at least in its effects on him. The Dursleys are despicable, but their treatment of Harry is so cartoonishly awful that by age ten he's already developed the ability to laugh at them. He has an ironic distance from them that prevents him from feeling really bad about how they treat him or what they say to him. This is, in some ways, the most improbable thing in the whole series--I'm not sure his first 18 months in a loving family would be sufficient to give him the confidence to develop this attitude. It's at the heart of his ability to love, and I don't think it's really a choice--it's a blessing. As Dumbledore points out, the Dursleys have done far worse damage to Dudley than to Harry--though not for want of trying. Harry can be hurt by them, of course (his rage at Aunt Marge and his unhappiness show that), but not really deeply, since he does not love or respect them. He can take comfort in the fact that they aren't his parents.
Snape's childhood miseries may be more like Dudley's in that his relatives probably have a far greater capacity to hurt him. The hook-nosed man yelling at the woman (presumably his mother) in his memory seems more likely to be one of his uncles or even a grandparent than his father, I think, but there's someone in his (magical) family who's horrible enough to teach Dark spells to an eleven-year-old, and I don't think he probably found that person's horribleness as easy to dismiss as Harry finds it to dismiss the Dursleys.
journeymom - Apr 29, 2006 7:56 am (#1989 of 2969)
Edited Apr 29, 2006 8:58 am
Thanks, winlia!
Laura, grudges like love letters... That's a fabulous turn of phrase. 5 points to your House.
JKR said that Snape is sort of even more culpable than Voldemort, as he was loved by at least one other person. (I guess she implies with that that Voldemort was never loved by anyone.)
I know it's possible the hook-nosed man is not Severus's father, but I always figured he was. Regardless, that might be key as to why Harry is able to laugh off the Dursley's pathetic behavior while Severus cannot. The Dursleys weren't his parents. It's pretty hurtful to find out your own mother cannot protect herself or you from abuse, even if it's just verbal. And in that regard it would just gall that his mother was a witch and his father a muggle.
Isn't that a story! The story of Eileen Prince and Tobias Snape. How in the world did they get together?
Soul Search - Apr 29, 2006 8:02 am (#1990 of 2969)
I don't think we can attribute Snape's treatment of Harry solely on Harry being James' son.
In the SS potions class Snape taunts "our new celebrity," then goes on to show the class, and more importantly Harry, that Harry is nothing special. He reiterates this theme in HBP, "Spinner's End."
Snape knows, from the part of the prophecy he heard, that Harry is special. And that is Snape's problem; Harry, a wizarding nobody, really, is so "special," and will defeat the Dark Lord, where as he, Snape, who has studied the dark arts and risked everything to conquer Voldemort, can only "help" Harry.
The fact that Harry is his enemy's son only makes it rancor more.
wynnleaf - Apr 29, 2006 8:19 am (#1991 of 2969)
Edited Apr 29, 2006 9:22 am
JKR said that Snape is sort of even more culpable than Voldemort, as he was loved by at least one other person. (I guess she implies with that that Voldemort was never loved by anyone.)
I know I've mentioned this before, but I'll do it again. I think we readers often assume that JKR was simply referring to someone loving Snape (like his mom, maybe), and his being somehow more "culpable" for bad decisions because he's experienced love in a way LV hasn't.
That could be just what JKR meant.
But I'm struck by a way that we know Severus has experienced the actions of love through the way DD has treated him. I don't mean "love" as in sweet and nice feelings. But DD has forgiven Severus, placed trust in him, expected good things out him -- all aspects of types of love. And DD did this despite the really awful decisions Severus had made in the past. Yet when faced with a similar opportunity to forgive others (the Maruaders), place trust in others, expect better things of them, etc., Severus cannot do this. In this regard, I would consider Snape's unwillingness to demonstrate those actions of love toward the Maruaders as particularly culpable because he has already had those actions so clearly demonstrated and directed toward him.
A similar situation may exist with Lily. If Lily showed any kind of love toward Severus (I'll assume the love of friendship, as that's less controversial), he is more culpable in his treatment of Harry, because he would have received love/friendship from Lily, but would not extend it to Harry.
As regards Harry compared to Severus, DD does comment on the amazing nature of Harry's ability to love in spite of his upbringing. Harry's ability to love is not spectacularly different from many, but it is noteworthy considering the lack of love he received as a young child. On the other hand, I agree with Ann's comments that there were likely some real differences in Harry and Severus' childhoods that helped to enable Harry to distance himself emotionally from the Dursleys in a way that Severus could not. And then, at Hogwarts, Harry appears to have developed more true friends than Severus. We really never hear of any friend of Severus' other than Lucius, who was actually a number of years older and would likely not have been a friend while in school.
Added to that is that there are real differences between the Gryffindors and Slytherins. From what I've seen, just being in Gryffindor, instead of Slytherin, helped Harry get a certain amount of emotional support that he wouldn't have had in Slytherin.
journeymom - Apr 29, 2006 4:33 pm (#1992 of 2969)
wynnleaf, that's an excellent point about Dd's, well, 'care' for Snape. We presume he forgave him and he clearly gave him a second chance. So yes, Snape certainly should show the same consideration to James's son.
winlia - Apr 29, 2006 4:53 pm (#1993 of 2969)
Edited Apr 29, 2006 7:08 pm
I suspect that DD was as much a father figure to Severus as he was to Harry. His influence, as well as that of Severus' colleagues at Hogwarts, should have gone a long way to helping the adult Severus move past any emotional damage done by his upbringing and his lack of popularity as a Hogwart's student. Even so, Severus' emotional development seems stalled.
If Severus is 38 or so, and he spent seven years at Hogwarts as a student and another sixteen as a staff member, than he's spent 60% of his life there. That's a high percentage of time given that he's nearly middle-aged. (I'm 47. To those of you under 25, I'm sure he is middle-aged.
No wonder he's steeped in memories of the Mauraders. He hasn't experienced much else beyond the rivalries and confinement of a boarding school. Maybe that's why DD gave him the DADA job. If DD and Severus knew that Voldemort would return, it would make sense for Severus to stay at Hogwarts until the final showdown. DD may have felt that leaving is what Severus needs to grow emotionally, and that the time has finally come. (Providing Severus survives LV, of course. I have my fingers crossed.) I don't think Severus needs to forgive the Mauraders as much as he just needs to move on. In the beginning of HBP, Harry reflects that he is being escorted into Hogwarts by the one person who doesn't regret that Sirius died. I doubt many people would mourn the death of someone who tormented them and pulled a prank that almost got them killed.
I've had one more random thought. I've always been very impressed by the Worst Memory scene. I think JKR deftly painted a picture of Severus' adolescence and told us all that we needed to know. It has occurred to me that that scene must be nearly as painful, if not more so, for Harry as it is for Snape. Harry has so little of his parents, and one of the few things that he has is a clear view of his father being less than kind. I'm sure what takes place in that memory taints the view of his mother as well, even though her words and actions are blameless.
Laura W - Apr 29, 2006 5:15 pm (#1994 of 2969)
Edited Apr 29, 2006 6:24 pm
Thanks for the compliments, Ann and journeymom. (Blushing like Dumbledore when Madam Pomphrey told him she liked his earmuffs.)
"Isn't that a story! The story of Eileen Prince and Tobias Snape. How in the world did they get together?"
Yeah, journeymom, I'd like to hear that story too. I wouldn't be surprised if it is told in Book 7.
Laura
Laura W - Apr 30, 2006 3:45 am (#1995 of 2969)
Edited Apr 30, 2006 4:54 am
Two points, if I may --
1. wynnleaf wrote: " But I'm struck by a way that we know Severus has experienced the actions of love through the way DD has treated him. ... DD has forgiven Severus, placed trust in him, expected good things out him .... And DD did this despite the really awful decisions Severus had made in the past. Yet when faced with a similar opportunity to forgive others (the Maruaders), place trust in others, expect better things of them, etc., Severus cannot do this. In this regard, I would consider Snape's unwillingness to demonstrate those actions of love toward the Maruaders as particularly culpable because he has already had those actions so clearly demonstrated and directed toward him."
Dumbledore, too, apparently felt that Severus would react to his (DD's) faith and kindness by showing faith and kindness towards others. Alas, it was not to be. As Dumbledore said in OoP, when talking to Harry about the failed Occlumency lessons (chapter, The Lost Prophecy):
"I trust Severus Snape. But I forgot - another old man's mistake - that some wounds run too deep for healing. I thought Professor Snape could overcome his feelings about your father - I was wrong."
2. Ann wrote: " But Harry will not be a satisfactory hero unless he lets go of the hatred and prejudice that he has cultivated. He is going have to learn to take a broader view (and I suspect the catalyst will be learning about Snape's relationship with his mother, whatever it was)."
Firstly, I have never been a subscriber to that whole Snape-Lily thing (in their fifth year he called her a "filthy little Mudblood," for heaven's sake!). Putting that aside, however, I hardly think that the knowledge that Snape had any warm feelings - or more than that - for Lily would endear him to Harry. Quite the opposite.
Remember in PoA when Harry and Hermoine are watching the events that took place in the past (Hemoine's Secret, p 296, Cdn. edition) - thanks to the Time Turner - and Harry's reaction when Snape touched the Invisibility Cloak?
"Harry's fists clenched as they watched Snape skid to a halt next to the tree, looking around. He grabbed the Cloak and held it up. 'Get your filthy hands off it,' Harry snarled under his breath."
If that's how strongly he feels about Severus merely touching James' magic cloak, think how he would feel about any positive touching - physically or emotionally - between Severus and James' wife!
Laura
winlia - Apr 30, 2006 7:29 am (#1996 of 2969)
Laura,
I don't think there's any doubt that Snape should have put his past behind him by now. He should be kinder and better able to relate to people, especially in his line of work. The question is, do we as readers want to see him punished for his lack of maturity and fairness, or do we have enough sympathy for him to want his character to grow? (Since he's a fictional character, we don't have to be constrained by being nice ourselves. We're free to hope that JKR deals with him harshly.) I think an argument can be made for either case, which is probably one of the things that keeps this thread running!
We've talked about the bad-boy syndrome, where girls fall for unsuitable guys. There are certainly many people who marry thinking that they can change their spouses only to be bitterly disappointed. But even though it seems that many personality traits are set, people do continue to grow emotionally as they age. Usually not huge changes, but changes nevertheless. At 47, I like to think I'm wiser in my interpersonal relationships than I was at 37, likewise at 27, and I don't even want to talk about 17! And I'm certainly not the only one. Like Snape, I've worked at the same place for 16 years, and I've seen my coworker change, usually, but not always, for the better. My husband, too, has grown wiser over the years, but I attribute that to being married to me.
Although the circumstances of the HP world are extreme compared to real life, being stuck in the past isn't that uncommon. For example, I've know two people who are dissatisfied and embittered because they don't earn as much money as one of their siblings. I have a friend who still pines for her high-school boyfriend, even though she's in her late 40's.
Ann - Apr 30, 2006 11:38 am (#1997 of 2969)
Edited Apr 30, 2006 12:39 pm
Laura, I agree that Harry's view of Snape would not be improved by knowing that Snape loved (and I think it is loved) Harry's mother. But I think that after an initial period of being shocked and repulsed, the news that his mother loved Snape (if only as Hermione loves Harry), might make him think twice about the man. Yes, Snape called her a horrible name in a moment of stress and mortification, but there's a reason that JKR calls that chapter "Snape's Worst Memory." It's the moment he betrayed someone who loved him. That stunned blink says it all.
Magic Words - Apr 30, 2006 11:46 am (#1998 of 2969)
Edited Apr 30, 2006 12:47 pm
Winlia, good points. I don't know about everyone else here, but "moving on" is pretty much what I mean when I say forgive, so we agree on that. And I definitely want to see character growth, not punishment. Hopefully you're right, and spending some time away from Hogwarts will help Snape do just that.
Laura, I understand where you're coming from with the Snape/Lily issue. My take on it, however, is that there's a reason the Mudblood comment is part of his "worst memory" - he lashed out in frustration and humiliation and later regretted it. And I'm sure Harry's initial reaction upon learning such a thing would be just as you described. But once he got used to the idea he might start to wonder, for instance, what his mother saw in Snape, and he would be a step closer to believing what Dumbledore said about his parents' deaths being Snape's greatest regret.
Edit: cross-posted with Ann, who says basically the same thing .
journeymom - Apr 30, 2006 11:54 am (#1999 of 2969)
Learning from Slughorn that Lily was good in potions made me wonder if Lily and Severus was lab partners. Severus's natural ability rubbed off on Lily a bit. They could simply have been respectful friends. Lily is compassionate and open, it seems like she would be friendly with Snape even if he was prickly.
I like the idea that Severus had once had feelings for Lily, but I won't be disappointed if it proves to be otherwise.
HungarianHorntail11 - Apr 30, 2006 1:42 pm (#2000 of 2969)
In SS, Snape tried to save Harry, though they assumed he was the one jinxing Harry. I do not recall Harry ever thanking him for that. I do not agree with Snape's behavior, but I, myself would feel inclined to at least say thank you, even if it rendered me vulnerable in the midst of someone such as Snape.
It leaves me curious as to whether Snape could save Harry and die in the process and it would finally occur to Harry to thank him but it would be too late. Hmm, growth with guilt - ouch.
Aimee Shawn - Apr 30, 2006 3:07 pm (#2001 of 2969)
I would like to know if Lily forgave Snape for the Mudblood comment. That would give Harry a concrete example of "moving on" from something you'd like to forget (and wish you could erase from the mind of others!) It would be interesting to see if they regained their former - for lack of better words - relationship, whatever it was.
Laura W - Apr 30, 2006 3:23 pm (#2002 of 2969)
Edited Apr 30, 2006 4:28 pm
"I don't think there's any doubt that Snape should have put his past behind him by now. He should be kinder and better able to relate to people, especially in his line of work. The question is, do we as readers want to see him punished for his lack of maturity and fairness, or do we have enough sympathy for him to want his character to grow?"
Well put, winlia. I guess this depends upon how harmful to others we perceive Snape's actions to be (ie - belittling and demeaning 11-year-old students in his care; telling V about the first part of the prophecy, which resulted in V finding and killing James and Lily; outing Lupin to the rest of the school; his constant cruel and cutting personal remarks to Sirius; etc). If Snape "grows" in book seven by doing something wonderful, does that wipe out all the terrible things he did - for those in this forum who think Snape did terrible things, that is: not all of us do, of course - in the previous six books?
That is my whole problem with the redemption issue. (See, wynnleaf, I brought it back to that! (grin)) You can carry on your life in a more desirable way than you have been, which is *certainly* to your credit, but in my book it does not wash away the conscious adult choices you made in the past which hurt or damaged other (particularly others who are innocent).
Also, in some ways I see Snape being punished right now. He is undoubtedly not a happy man. Frustrated in his job, seeing others probably less talented than he getting the coveted DADA position year after year (until book six); despised by his students (except for a few Slytherins); friendless in general - with the possible exception of slippery Lucius - because both sides of the war see him as their spy but are not sure, so they cannot fully trust him; not in a personal loving relationship; and generally feeling the burden of life without experiencing its joy. Still, a lot of this is his own making, in my view.
Magic Words wrote: "My take on it, however, is that there's a reason the Mudblood comment is part of his "worst memory" - he lashed out in frustration and humiliation and later regretted it."
Then you are a lot more charitable than I, Magic. I think it was his worst memory because he was humiliated by James on the school grounds in front of a large group of students (what with them all seeing his skinny legs and shabby underwear), and the only one who stood up for him was "that filthy Mudblood". It later became his worst memory again because Harry witnessed it.
And, by the way, there is no question that Harry ignores any good things that Snape has done (ie - saving his life in PS, informing the Order about Harry et al being in danger at the MOM in OoP, providing Wolfsbane Potion for Lupin in PoA, telling Crabbe to stop strangling Neville in OoP, giving Umbridge fake Veritaserum to put in Harry's tea in OoP), but again I attribute that to Harry's age. Severus doesn't have that excuse.
Laura
Tom Marvolo Riddleton - Apr 30, 2006 5:01 pm (#2003 of 2969)
Magic Words wrote: "My take on it, however, is that there's a reason the Mudblood comment is part of his "worst memory" - he lashed out in frustration and humiliation and later regretted it."
Then you are a lot more charitable than I, Magic. I think it was his worst memory because he was humiliated by James on the school grounds in front of a large group of students (what with them all seeing his skinny legs and shabby underwear), and the only one who stood up for him was "that filthy Mudblood". It later became his worst memory again because Harry witnessed it. - Laura W
I can't swallow what you've got to offer there, Laura. Consider this: Where was the memory? In the pensieve, was it not? Snape chose to remove this memory from his mind above many others that I doubt he really would have been to pleased with Harry seeing, such as the terrible childhood Harry got a glimpse of. It logically follows that Snape felt that this was his worst memory before Harry saw it. And I very seriously doubt that Snape's being targeted by James was an isolated incident. Thus, there was something special about this memory. Whether or not it was the fact that he called Lily a Mudblood, I don't know, but I like to think so.
Magic Words - Apr 30, 2006 6:11 pm (#2004 of 2969)
Has anyone else seen that editorial on Mugglenet entitled "Machiavelli's Half-Blood Prince?" I just found it, and frankly, I'm more worried now than I've been since my first read through HBP. If you haven't seen the article, it compares Snape with the Roman general Lucius Septimius Severus, who became emperor of Rome by making an alliance with one of his rivals, Albinus, in order to defeat a third rival (Niger), then turning around and killing Albinus and taking over Rome. I haven't read Machiavelli's "The Prince," but apparently it upholds Severus as a good example of how to seize and keep power. If anybody has evidence that JKR is not patterning Snape on Severus, I would be grateful to hear it. I'd hate to start thinking I was THAT wrong....
wynnleaf - Apr 30, 2006 7:59 pm (#2005 of 2969)
Edited Apr 30, 2006 9:00 pm
That is my whole problem with the redemption issue. (See, wynnleaf, I brought it back to that! (grin)) You can carry on your life in a more desirable way than you have been, which is *certainly* to your credit, but in my book it does not wash away the conscious adult choices you made in the past which hurt or damaged other (particularly others who are innocent).
When I spoke of Snape's inability to forgive the Marauders, or to extend to any of them the kinds of actions DD extended to him, I didn't mean it solely in the "putting the past behind," kind of way. He had to interact with Sirius and Lupin on a regular basis. Any "putting the past behind" would have also entailed actually putting into action a different way of behaving toward them. Of course, Sirius in no way changed his behavior either, and seemed to intentionally incite Snape toward anger. And Lupin lived up to Snape's suspicions of his weaknesses, so Snape's disdain for Lupin would seem to be affirmed at least in his own eyes. The thing is, DD kept seeing bad aspects of Snape, and yet continued to extend trust and forgiveness to him. Snape couldn't do that for others.
On the issue of calling Lily a Mudblood.... I don't know if that's the part that makes the pensieve scene his worst memory or not. But I do know one thing, I once called someone I love dearly a thoroughly BAD thing, solely because I was frightened he was about to drop a very heavy piano on my hands. And it never caused the slightest discomfort between us. Severus was in a very stressful, embarrassing, and also frightening (in the sense that worse could have happened in a moment), situation. Calling Lily a mudblood in the midst of that was really pretty minor, in my opinion. Of course, he may not have seen it that way -- but if they were friends, she should have seen it that way.
As regards Lucius Septimius Severus, I suggest reading up on his life. It was really all quite complicated and the whole thing with Clodius Albinus is really nothing like the JKR characters. Albinus, for instance, was placed by Severus in a junior position as a governor of sorts with the understanding that he'd be Severus' successor. At about the same time Niger was setting himself up as emperor although Severus was also acclaimed emperor in Rome. These were basically two rivals that were clearly going to fight for the right to be emperor. Once Niger was defeated Severus had more secure power, and declared his own son his successor. Seems natural to me, but Albinus took offence (he was probably meant to take offense), and Albinus moved on Rome to fight Severus -- note: Albinus moved on Rome. A war started which Severus eventually won. Albinus probably committed suicide, although he may have been murdered (not by Severus).
Sure "Severus" "Albinus" and "Niger" (black, aka dark???), bear a resemblence to Albus, the Dark Lord, and Severus. But the stories don't seem much alike, especially with Albinus being subordinate to Severus. And there was never any question about Severus serving either Niger or Albinus, more like the opposite.
I guess that means I don't see much in the comparison. Anyhow, a lot of what Machiavelli says isn't half bad, you know.
Laura W - May 1, 2006 2:05 am (#2006 of 2969)
"That is my whole problem with the redemption issue. (See, wynnleaf, I brought it back to that! (grin))"
When I wrote that, I was referring to what wynnleaf wrote in posts #1972 and #1977, which dealt specifically with Snape's redemption.
Magic Words - May 1, 2006 7:08 am (#2007 of 2969)
Thanks, Wynnleaf. I looked it up in a couple different sources and I guess it didn't happen quite the way Machiavelli describes (also found a translation of that part of "The Prince," and he definitely leaves out the part where Albinus moves on Rome). Maybe that means something, the fact that the story being circulated isn't exactly accurate.... maybe I'm thinking way too much about this....
Nathan Zimmermann - May 1, 2006 7:33 am (#2008 of 2969)
Edited May 1, 2006 8:44 am
Magic Words, I would assert that in narrow context Severus could be viewed as having a Machiavellian nature for example, I would argue that the teaching style of Severus Snape is congruent with the Machiavellian principle that it is better to be feared rather than loved.
In so far as Severus draws strength from the fear he inspires. The manner in which he deals with his students demonstrates this ideal because, he projects the image of the stern task master in order to ensure that his power and decisions are not questioned by his students.
The classroom door opened as she spoke, and Snape stepped into the corridor, his sallow face framed as ever by two curtains of greasy black hair. Silence fell over the queue immediately. "Inside," he said. (HBP large print edition page 231)
wynnleaf - May 1, 2006 9:57 am (#2009 of 2969)
Edited May 1, 2006 10:58 am
In partial reaction to the mugglenet article....
Magic Words, I would assert that in narrow context Severus could be viewed as having a Machiavellian nature for example, I would argue that the teaching style of Severus Snape is congruent with the Machiavellian principle that it is better to be feared rather than loved.
While I quite agree with Nathan's comment above, I'd think that if Snape were trying to follow Machiavellian strategies and play LV and DD off against each other in order to take over after they fall, he failed miserably. First, he got into a situation where no one was supporting his cause; instead he was working to support the causes of two masters. He has not drawn, as far as we know, one single DE, auror, or Order member -- or any other wizard or witch -- to his personal support. Even those that did trust him and could have been possible supporters (Draco on the darker side, Order members following DD's lead on the light side), no longer trust him and would not support him.
Just how is this guy supposed to "take over" once his supposed machinations bring down both DD and LV? He has none of the powers of LV to lure others into his service and he has no power base with which to "take over" anyone.
While the emperor Severus had a power base to work from, Severus Snape has no power base whatsoever.
Honestly, if this were Machiavelli 101, I'd say he failed.
In our search for the hidden clues with which to figure out the future of the plot, there are some readers who hope to find some hidden pattern lurking in a game, a philosophy, history, other literature, where they will find JKR's plans systematically reflecting that earlier pattern. My guess is that in reality, JKR uses chess, alchemy, history, religious themes, literary themes, myth, and yes, even Machiavelli and the Severus and Albinus of history to piece together her own plot. But just because we can see glimmers of her sources doesn't mean that her plots will follow any of the source material so directly that we can predict either her plots or characters.
rambkowalczyk - May 1, 2006 10:49 am (#2010 of 2969)
Edited May 1, 2006 11:52 am
On the Machiavelli thing, I think Snape is more complex than to just be in it for himself. Below are my ideas supporting this.
In the past this thread has numerous comments on how Snape wants the respect of others.
It has been said that Dumbledore respects Snape because he listens to him. Snape provides valuable information to the order.
On the other hand so does Voldemort. It was Vulture who pointed out in Spinner's End that Voldemort considers Snape useful and as of that point in time he was more useful than Lucius and Bella. At that point Snape might be tied with Peter Pettigrew who was instrumental in bringing him back to his body.
But from Voldemort's point of view what has either done for him lately? Voldemort's respect is obviously an illusion as he only cares for himself and sees people only a means to his end. The 64 galleon question is does Snape see Voldemort's respect as only an illusion or does he want it so badly that an illusion is better than nothing at all?
We know that Dumbledore's respect is the real thing, but I think Snape is having his doubts. Dumbledore has told Harry that only Dumbledore and Harry know the second half of the prophecy. This means that Snape doesn't know it. Logically Snape knows it isn't a good idea for him to know the full prophecy but emotionally he may think Dumbledore is holding back because Dumbledore no longer trust him.
Many posters have stated that Snape is acting emotionally like a teenager. Snape may see position of closeness to authority figures as a direct proportion to respect. As of June of 96, he was as close as anyone could expect to Voldemort. The only person who could get closer is Harry (Dumbledore alludes to this in HBP Horcruxes) and Harry isn't even tempted.
Snape's closeness to Dumbledore also puts him in a position of respect, but he has rivals. First there is McGonagall but this rivalry seems friendly but this is probably because Dumbledore does not rely on her when his life is in danger from whatever curse was on the Marvello Ring. Then there is Harry.
How does Snape feel about Harry getting private lessons from Dumbledore? Especially when it interrupts Harry's detention with Snape. How did he feel when it was Harry that accompanied Dumbledore on his mission and not him. How would he have felt if it was Dumbledore teaching Harry Occlumency instead of him? Was he sulking in the dungeon waiting for Dumbledore to return knowing he was going to have to clean up whatever mess that was made? Is this the sort of thing that Snape meant when he told Dumbledore he was taking him for granted.
I still think that Snape is on the side of good, but he does have this character flaw with all the makings of a death that would be tragedy as defined by Solitaire.
Tom Marvolo Riddleton - May 1, 2006 4:40 pm (#2011 of 2969)
But I do know one thing, I once called someone I love dearly a thoroughly BAD thing, solely because I was frightened he was about to drop a very heavy piano on my hands. And it never caused the slightest discomfort between us. Severus was in a very stressful, embarrassing, and also frightening (in the sense that worse could have happened in a moment), situation. Calling Lily a Mudblood in the midst of that was really pretty minor, in my opinion. Of course, he may not have seen it that way -- but if they were friends, she should have seen it that way. -wynnleaf
Out of curiosity (stop me if I'm prying), did the person who almost dropped a piano on your hands seem to love you as much as you loved? I only ask because I doubt that Lily loved Snape like it could have been in your scenario, and thus a simple name calling could have been blown way out of proportion much more easily. Spitefully insulting my heritage when I was trying to help someone might cause a niche in our relationship. Nobody can say for sure yet, but that may have been the moment that forever destroyed the possibility of Snape hooking up with Lily. (I don't say all this just to contradict you; I just really need to find a better reason for that memory to be Snape's worse than "James made fun of him.")
Ann - May 1, 2006 5:16 pm (#2012 of 2969)
My take on Snape's Worst Memory: I cannot believe that an adult's worst memory would ever be a childhood humiliation. In fact, I think if it had only been the humiliation, I think Snape would have treasured the memory as evidence that the Marauders were as horrible as he thought they were. As even Harry sees it, they are horrible to him. (Haven't we all wished that an enemy would do something so egregiously awful that we could hate them without any guilt at all?)
What makes something a really bad memory is not what others have done to us--things we could not help--but our own shameful acts. I believe quite firmly that JKR has camouflaged the worst part (Snape's insult to Lily) with the horrible humiliation visited on Snape by the Marauders.
I agree that a real friend (and sources seem to agree that Lily was a nice person and a firm friend) would hold such an insult, particularly an insult tossed off in such a stressful situation, against someone forever. After all, Mudblood is not an insult that would have any resonance in the culture she grew up in. So I don't think that it was Lily that destroyed the friendship, but Snape, who would have been so sure she could never forgive him that he would have rejected her first.
Die Zimtzicke - May 1, 2006 5:16 pm (#2013 of 2969)
I still think it's too simplistic to expect Snape to be good, or bad. He's the most gray character we've got, in my opinion. He may well be neither totally on Voldemort's side, or the Orders'. He's (possibly) more likely to be on his own side.
Why does everyone have to be one thing or the other? That's just not the way of the world. Why does it have to be so in a specific piece of literature?
Choices - May 1, 2006 5:56 pm (#2014 of 2969)
Edited May 1, 2006 6:57 pm
I agree with you Die. How anyone reacts to an insult is very personal and individual. It depends on what has happened to them in their background - what they are sensitive to. What may hurt me terribly, someone else might just shrug off without a second thought.
Nathan Zimmermann - May 1, 2006 7:02 pm (#2015 of 2969)
Edited May 1, 2006 8:20 pm
Rambkowalczyk, I agree Snape is a complex character and indeed it would be foolish to automatically assume that he is just in it for himself without an offer of proof. I merely assert that the style of teaching he employs is Machiavellian in nature. I am disinclined to extend the idea further because, there is insufficient evidence to enlarge the hypothesis further to embrace other aspects of Snape's character.
Having said that, I also agree that Severus Snape is neither wholly good, nor is he wholly evil. There are characters such as Voldemort, Bellatrix Black Lestrange, and Fenrir Greyback that approach the point at which a person becomes totally evil and is devoid of any consciousness nut, his actions in HBP demonstrate that Severus Snape has not approached that point.
Saracene - May 2, 2006 12:51 am (#2016 of 2969)
Actually, I'd say that childhood/teenage traumas - something that happens in the period when people and their emotions are at their most vulnerable - are very much likely to be an adult's worst memory.
And I think that the reason Snape would find this particular memory so painful is because in it he was powerless, humiliated and stripped of dignity. IMO he'd find this sort of situation terrible precisely because he was helpless to stop it. It's also telling that, prior to the memory, Snape called James arrogant and whatnot but -never- hinted that James bullied him - because to admit that you were bullied places you in a position of weakness and for Snape, with his pride, that would have been unbearable. I don't really subscribe to the theory that Snape's insult of Lily was what really made the memory his worst. Snape's reaction after he caught Harry out IMO suggests that this memory is all about James and what he did to him.
I also think that whatever connection there might have been between Snape and Lily - unrequited love, brief friendship, etc. - came into being after the Pensieve incident, probably somewhere in their sixth year. I just don't detect any intimate connection between Snape and Lily in the Pensieve scene at all. Lily, to me, doesn't feel like she's sticking up for a friend or even someone she likes; until Snape's insult her attention throughout the whole scene is focused squarely on James, she refers to Snape as "him" and "he". And Snape doesn't even speak to Lily when he insults her - his tirade is directed at James: "I don't need help from filthy little mudbloods like 'her'" (As opposed to 'you').
Re: Snape's good/bad position, I think that the most important thing is finding out exactly what part he played in Dumbledore's death. If, for instance, he betrayed and murdered Dumbledore - the only person who believed and trusted him - then in my book that makes him evil no matter whether he's supporting Voldemort or playing his own game. You can be evil and not serve Voldemort.
haymoni - May 2, 2006 3:49 am (#2017 of 2969)
I'm sorry, but I think we may be trivializing (is that a word??) the use of "Mudblood".
I thought it was possibly the worst thing you could call someone. All the reactions to that word have caused visible signs of shock and disgust.
I've said this before so I hope I'm not boring you. My theory is that Snape was Lily's Neville. Just as Hermione seemed to take Neville under her wing ever since the first train ride, perhaps Lily did the same with Snape.
It is possible that they lived near each other, but that doesn't necessarily have to be so for the theory to work. They become friends on the train - maybe Lily defends Snape if kids start teasing him. They get sorted into separate houses. Snape ends up with all these soon-to-be-Death-Eaters and picks up some of the pure-blood philosophy. He and Lily are still friends, but they grow apart over the years.
We get to Year 5 - James & Co. start hassling Snape - Lily comes to his defense - "What has he ever done to you?" - which makes me think she has defended him before. Snape is already embarrassed and the "Mudblood" comment slips out. Lily turns her back on her old friend and Snape realizes that with 1 word, he has lost her - as a friend and as possibly something more.
I just think calling someone "Mudblood" isn't the same as swearing at them or calling them "stupid" or some other insult. It is just about as low as you can go.
Soul Search - May 2, 2006 6:41 am (#2018 of 2969)
With all this disussion I thought I would review the "Snape's Worst Memory" scene in OotP.
First, Snape has borrowed Dumbledore's pensieve. When accepting that he would be teaching Harry occlumency Snape anticipated that Harry might see some of his memories, so he secured them in the pensieve. A few memories; more than just the one Harry saw. Snape secured the memories before every session; bit of a nuisance, that. Must have been really important that Harry didn't see those memories.
It might even be that Dumbledore suggested Snape secure some of his memories in the pensieve; for example, why he trusts Snape.
Just the concept that Snape has memories Harry really shouldn't see is interesting.
So, these are memories that Snape didn't want Harry to see. Or, maybe, memories that Dumbledore thought Harry shouldn't see.
Since the conflicts between James and Snape were ongoing and frequent, Snape's embarrassment probably wasn't why it was selected for the pensieve. So, why was it that Harry shouldn't see that particular memory?
Harry saw some spells being used that he later used in HBP. Probably not the reason, though.
Harry saw his mother. Harry learned that Snape knew her. She tried to protect Snape from James.
Snape called Lily a "Mudblood," even though he was a half-blood.
Lily said she wouldn't try to help Snape "in future."
Anything else?
None of this seems to be important enough to secure in a pensive. Either we don't know enough to recognize the significance of the scene or the really important part came after Harry was dragged from the pensive.
haymoni - May 2, 2006 6:56 am (#2019 of 2969)
I always wondered about the title of that chapter.
Who is it that thinks this is Snape's Worst Memory?
Harry? Snape? JKR?
It isn't "Snape's Worst Memories" - plural.
It isn't "Snivellus" - which would have been a great title!
SOMEBODY thinks that this is Snape's Worst Memory - worse than seeing his parents fight, worse than being alone zapping flies, worse than being almost killed by a werewolf.
I just don't think the humiliation part is the key. It has to be the relationship with Lily going down the tubes.
HungarianHorntail11 - May 2, 2006 7:08 am (#2020 of 2969)
Edited May 2, 2006 8:14 am
Greg, FWIW, I maintain that it was Snape's worst memory because it was the first communication between James and Lily (an 'ice breaker' of sorts). Though it may not have been the best manner in which to strike up a conversation, it was, nevertheless, a conversation. At that point, I think James was just happy to be speaking to her. The very last thing Snape would want is for her to be on speaking terms with James (of all people). Any terms of speaking allows for positive interaction.
Let us say that Snape did have a fondness for Lily and he helped her with potions. She did not have to like him back in the same way, but just be friends or chummy with him. (Gee, I never saw that back in my high school days!) Slughorn could have acknowledged her potions abilities in the same manner as he did Harry's, so who is to say she actually had such abilities on her own?
That being said, it seems as though Snape may have a 'penchant' for being used (Lily fans seething at this post). She may not even have done it with an awareness, but remember, she did have a knack for 'charms.'
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wynnleaf - May 2, 2006 7:33 am (#2021 of 2969)
Edited May 2, 2006 8:36 am
And I think that the reason Snape would find this particular memory so painful is because in it he was powerless, humiliated and stripped of dignity. IMO he'd find this sort of situation terrible precisely because he was helpless to stop it. It's also telling that, prior to the memory, Snape called James arrogant and whatnot but -never- hinted that James bullied him - because to admit that you were bullied places you in a position of weakness and for Snape, with his pride, that would have been unbearable. I don't really subscribe to the theory that Snape's insult of Lily was what really made the memory his worst. Snape's reaction after he caught Harry out IMO suggests that this memory is all about James and what he did to him.
About 10 years ago I recall reading a review on a book by 2 psychologists who had studied childhood memories and why we hold on to certain ones as important, while dismissing others. Their conclusion was that many childhood memories are retained as "important" because those memories act as symbols for what we believe about ourselves or our past. Certain memories sort of epitomize certain views that we have of ourselves or how we view our place among others and the world. So for instance, a person might recall the details of a particular argument with a parent because that argument incorporates so many aspects of how the adult now views that relationship. Or I, for example, recall all of the fine detail of an embarrassing series of events in 1st grade, almost solely because they are a picture of how I viewed my nerdy self in relation to other children. If I were to apply these psych's view of childhood and adolescent memories to Snapes Worst Memory, it would follow that Snape particularly focused on this memory because it epitomized his view of his past, in regard to certain experiences -- perhaps only his relations with the Marauders, or perhaps with classmates in general. Think of all the pieces in this particular event -- he's minding his own business, he's ganged up on by the Marauders whose attack comes from out of the blue, major embarrassment, helplessness, most people just laughing about it, Lupin doing nothing. Lily's intervention attempt would add to the embarrassment. In other words, this is Snape's worst memory, not because nothing this bad had ever happened before or would happen again, but because it so clearly depicted what he would consider the usual way he was treated by the Marauders.
As Saracene pointed out, Snape never says the Marauders bullied him. He says they were afraid to attack him one on one. He words it in a way that implies his strength, but in fact the incidences themselves would have highlighted a sense of weakness and vulnerability. I think it's his worst memory because it incorporated every element with which he viewed this ongoing 5-7 year bullying by the Marauders.
I'm sorry, but I think we may be trivializing (is that a word??) the use of "Mudblood". I thought it was possibly the worst thing you could call someone.
On the term "mudblood" being the "worst thing" you can call someone....Oh, people say that all the time about some word or another. It doesn't usually mean there's literally no other word that's as bad. It just generally means that the word is really, really bad.
If this is Snapes Worst Memory because of calling Lily a mudblood, that just makes incredibly little sense when one considers that it was his action of taking the prophecy to LV that ultimately caused her death. How could calling her a mudblood compare to that???? If he really cared about Lily, and his worst memories are because of something he did to Lily, then why would it be calling her a bad name and ruining a friendship, rather than telling LV a prophecy that concerned her and causing her death?
No, I think the focus of the worst memory was in part the specific incident with the Marauders, but primarily because it summed up his view of how he was both treated by the Marauders, and perhaps how he was viewed by and treated by others in general. Remember, only Lily came to his defense and most people seemed rather entertained by the whole thing.
haymoni - May 2, 2006 7:34 am (#2022 of 2969)
Edited May 2, 2006 8:37 am
HH11 - I don't think it would have been the first time that they spoke - they had been in Gryffindor together for 5 years, but it could have provided James with a way to talk to Lily.
"I can't believe Snivellus called you that, Evans."
Something like that.
Wynnleaf - that was how I always took the memory, but the more I thought about it - why was this "The Worst"??
I would bet my wand arm that there were many incidents like this - why does this one stand out?
Die Zimtzicke - May 2, 2006 8:24 am (#2023 of 2969)
I know childhood trauma can be a major force in someone's life, but Snape was a Death Eater. I can't believe the worst thing he ever saw or participated in was some petty childhood slight. I really want a better explanation of that.
But then Jo ended OotP with the chapter title "The Second War Begins" and I didn't see much war in book six. So, who knows?
journeymom - May 2, 2006 8:39 am (#2024 of 2969)
"I just don't think the humiliation part is the key. It has to be the relationship with Lily going down the tubes. "
Can it simply be both? Boys/young men that age are all about jockeying for position, socially. Humiliation like this at James' hands would be a major blow. Yes, they'd already been at each other for 5 years prior, but maybe nothing this harsh before.
Though this scene takes place in 5th year, and Severus and Lily have potions together in their 6th year.
Does it seem to anybody that JKR is implying that Lily copied from Severus? I can't imagine she'd do that to Lily. Did Severus help her or was she brilliant in her own right? Was this just another example of Slughorn acknowledging the beautiful people and ignoring the rest? Slughorn probably didn't think too highly of student Snape. HBP is the first we hear about her doing so well in potions.
wynnleaf - May 2, 2006 9:09 am (#2025 of 2969)
Edited May 2, 2006 10:13 am
When Slughorn talked to Snape at the Christmas party, he mentioned Harry's ability in potions. This is the only time Slughorn does not say that Harry got it from Lily. He does mention how well Harry brewed a certain potion and says, "even you, Severus..." (can't recall it all), but he seems to imply that Snape was very, very good and Harry had done as well or perhaps better than "even you." That does indicate that Slughorn thought Snape was particularly good at potions.
Plus, I always wondered at Snape being invited to the Christmas party in the first place. Slughorn doesn't invite all and sundry, and not even all of the faculty (or at least they don't all come). So why is Snape there? I would tend to think that he would not go to such a party if he hadn't been a part of the Slug Club long before. I just can't believe, if Slughorn had overlooked him in school, Snape would be attending his Christmas Party unless he absolutely had to be there.
Okay, so if Snape was in the Slug Club, that would mean Slughorn appreciated something about Snape. Since it probably wasn't his family, and certainly not his wealth, charm, etc., it would almost have to be his talent.
I am also struck by Slughorn's NOT mentioning Harry's ability coming from Lily when around Snape. Is that pure coincidence? JKR has Slughorn mention Lily on ever other occasion where he praises Harry's ability. But not around Snape. My personal opinion is that Slughorn is, regardless of motives, more attuned to other people's feelings than one might think (he knew just what to say around Hagrid, for instance). I think he didn't mention Lily around Severus because it would, for whatever reason, not be comfortable for Severus.
Back to "worst memory."
I know childhood trauma can be a major force in someone's life, but Snape was a Death Eater. I can't believe the worst thing he ever saw or participated in was some petty childhood slight. I really want a better explanation of that.
I certainly don't believe that it's his worst memory because it's the worst thing that ever happened to him. I think it's because this memory defines or characterizes something for him that is extraordinarily important to him.
haymoni - May 2, 2006 9:34 am (#2026 of 2969)
I think Sluggy invited Snape because he is the head of his old house.
Magic Words - May 2, 2006 10:15 am (#2027 of 2969)
I bet Snape's memories pertaining to the prophecy were in that pensieve as well, probably buried as deep as possible beneath the more embarassing but ultimately harmless memories from his school days.
wynnleaf - May 2, 2006 10:41 am (#2028 of 2969)
Edited May 2, 2006 11:42 am
I think Sluggy invited Snape because he is the head of his old house.
Could be. But why did Snape go? He didn't expect to see Draco. It doesn't seem to have had any benefit for the Order, for LV, for spying, for anything else I can see. All the faculty didn't seem to be there, so it didn't seem like attendance was required. Why did he go?
I don't think he'd have gone if he'd had any ill-will toward Slughorn. And I can't help but think he would have born ill-will toward Slughorn if Slughorn had disregarded him and considered him not worth involving in the Slug Club. Not that I think Snape would have cared about being in the Club, but I think he'd have disliked it if Slughorn had included others for their wealth, charm, family connections, or talent, but had not considered him worthy of notice. And anyway, Slughorn's "even you" seemed to me to indicate that he did think Snape quite talented in potions.
haymoni - May 2, 2006 10:49 am (#2029 of 2969)
What else does he have to do??? Stay in his quarters and zap flies off the ceiling??
I don't see Snape as being anti-social when it comes to the other teachers.
I could see Sluggy being proud of Snape as one who was from his house and eventually taking over the Potions position. He could even be proud of him coming over from the Death Eaters back to the "good" side.
Soul Search - May 2, 2006 11:06 am (#2030 of 2969)
Building on my #2018 post, why was it important that Harry not see this memory?
The other thing we learn is that James was rather taken with Lily, but she (maybe) wasn't interested in him. Doesn't seem quite the reason Harry shouldn't see this memory, either.
From a OotP plot standpoint, Harry seeing this memory lead to his doubting his father's character and desire to talk to Sirius. He talked to Sirius, then that plot line seemed to just end. What was the point?
rambkowalczyk - May 2, 2006 11:27 am (#2031 of 2969)
Another line of inquiry could be is What was in the other 2 memories that Snape took out. I thought one of them might have been the werewolf encounter and based on book 6 the third might be telling Voldemort the prophecy or some future point when Voldemort decided to kill the Potters as a result of it.
It might be that this is his worst memory because to him this severed any hope of a relationship with Lily not because Lily wouldn't have forgiven him but because he couldn't forgive himself. Although as a Halfblood he could theoretically sneer at Mudbloods, I suspect that he chose to ignore bloodlines out of respect to his father. Therefore when he called her that name he might have broken a promise to himself to not be as arrogant as a pureblood
Magic Words - May 2, 2006 11:35 am (#2032 of 2969)
What's more, we know that plotline is important enough that they're not cutting it from the OotP movie, when I'd think they'd be cutting whatever they could for time's sake.
haymoni - May 2, 2006 12:03 pm (#2033 of 2969)
Are these memories still in the Pensieve?
How do you get a specific memory out of it?
It seems as though Harry just fell in.
I'm sure Hermione knows how to work it. Maybe they could view anything that has to do with Snape.
Ann - May 2, 2006 2:50 pm (#2034 of 2969)
Okay, everyone thinks that a childhood memory couldn't be the worst memory a Death Eater could have. But try this: Suppose that, up to the point of the scene in the Pensieve, Snape had been (at least) friends with Lily. I suspect that may be part of the reason for the animosity between James and Snape. James is used to getting anything he wants, and here is this nerdy Slytherin who is friends with the girl he's interested in--a very popular girl, JKR tells us--who doesn't like James.
Snape is so miserable and mortified that she should see him in this helpless and humiliating situation that he lashes out at her, using a slur on her birth, one that typifies everything that all the Gryffindors say is wrong with Slytherin. Snape is nothing if not an absolutist. He'd feel his action was inexcusable (regardless of how ready she might be to excuse it), and the only way to go from there was further down that racist, Death Eater road. There was no hope in salvaging the good in his life that was represented by Lily.
I think this is his worst memory (and, since it's a chapter title, it's JKR telling us that it is) because he sees it as the moment that he stepped onto the path that made him a Death Eater. It's a turning point.
wynnleaf - May 2, 2006 3:10 pm (#2035 of 2969)
Ann, I think your explanation works. I could see Snape thinking (wrongly) that calling Lily a mudblood was so inexcusable that he couldn't apologize to her and their friendship was ruined. After that, she gradually starts to hang out with James (supposedly he reformed), and Snape turns more and more to all that he thinks at the time is left to him -- the darker side.
winlia - May 2, 2006 3:18 pm (#2036 of 2969)
My Mother always said that I was overly-sensitive, but I have to admit that being dangled by an ankle and unable to retaliate while my classmates laughed would win out as worst over any of my own memories. Of course, I've never been a death eater either...
I think at that point in Severus' life, Lily's good opinion was important to him, and her witnessing his humiliation added to the hurt. Snape is very proud, and his pride is almost all he's got. He doesn't seem to have, or ever have had, much in the way of love or friendship, maybe not even genuine respect. (I'm not saying that he has none of those things, just that the amount he has is insufficient.) He's honed his wizarding skills, and it is important to him not to be bested. So I think the humiliation itself is enough to make the memory stand as worst.
journeymom - May 2, 2006 3:19 pm (#2037 of 2969)
Edited May 2, 2006 4:21 pm
Does anybody know what, as a Death Eater, has Severus Snape done? He took half of the prophecy to Voldemort. That's all we know for a fact that he has done that's nasty. It can be inferred that because we know Death Eaters have killed whole families, including children, that he may have participated in something like that. Fan fictions certainly have Snape doing the worst of the worst, most heinous, vile acts.
Taking the prophecy to Voldemort turned out to be a terrible thing. But Snape is not responsible for Voldemort's actions, Snape did not kill the Potters. Is there anything in the books that I'm missing? Did he poison a bunny or burn down an old lady's house?
winlia - May 2, 2006 3:58 pm (#2038 of 2969)
journeymom
I know of no evidence that he did anything evil, or even slightly nasty, as a DE. I imagine he at least saw or heard of something, though, that made him turn away. Something that might prey on his mind, whether he was a participant or not, and constitute a "worst" memory.
Solitaire - May 2, 2006 3:59 pm (#2039 of 2969)
I get so far behind, lately, that my posts seem out of sync. However, I must respond to #1980: (If Dd is dead) Harry is just as culpable for Dd's death as Snape is.
If whatever Dumbledore drank was the real cause of his death, then Harry is still not responsible; he was following Dumbledore's orders, which he promised to do, no matter what. Whether or not that is also true of Snape remains to be seen.
As to considering Snape's part in his parents' deaths in that light ... I do not see how. To be sure, Snape did not kill Lily and James, nor did he force Voldemort to do so. However, are you suggesting that James and Lily (or even Dumbledore) asked Snape to tell Voldemort the prophecy? Harry was following Dumbledore's orders. Snape freely chose to give Voldemort information that would endanger the Potters, for he surely knew Voldemort would not be able to resist acting on it. I guess I do not understand this particular analogy.
Snape is prejudiced against Harry from day one because of James, and Harry is determined to see only bad in Snape. Both are being unfair. The difference is that Snape is a grown man and Harry is a boy! We are not talking about an even playing field in terms of maturity and judgement and personal responsibility! The bulk of the accountability here lies with Professor Snape
I wholeheartedly agree. Snape not only set this conflict in motion, but he has kept it fueled from day one. I do not believe Harry would have disliked Snape had Snape not wanted to be disliked by him. However, I hope Harry can get past his feelings for Snape and look at things realistically. If he cannot, then I worry that all of his plans and strategies may be skewed (and poisoned) by his feelings about Snape. This concerns me.
Solitaire
Laura W - May 3, 2006 1:55 am (#2040 of 2969)
Solitaire quoted me (Laura W): "Snape is prejudiced against Harry from day one because of James, and Harry is determined to see only bad in Snape. Both are being unfair. The difference is that Snape is a grown man and Harry is a boy! We are not talking about an even playing field in terms of maturity and judgement and personal responsibility! The bulk of the accountability here lies with Professor Snape " ...
and then went on to write: "I wholeheartedly agree. Snape not only set this conflict in motion, but he has kept it fueled from day one. I do not believe Harry would have disliked Snape had Snape not wanted to be disliked by him. ..."
Hmm, interesting way of looking at it: "had Snape not wanted to be disliked by him." Maybe there was something in the plan (Dumbledore's plan, which Snape went along with?) making it advantageous to Harry's ultimate survival for him to hate Severus Snape so much from the time he entered Hogwarts at 11 until he left it.
Boy, am I reaching here! Just another far-out theory. (grin)
Laura
wynnleaf - May 3, 2006 6:27 am (#2041 of 2969)
Edited May 3, 2006 7:29 am
If whatever Dumbledore drank was the real cause of his death, then Harry is still not responsible; he was following Dumbledore's orders, which he promised to do, no matter what.
I don't agree that just because someone requests that you do something, you bear no accountability for the outcome. DD told Harry that LV probably wouldn't want the cave liquids to kill someone immediately. And he told Harry to make him drink the liquids. But Harry is not a robot, forced to follow DD's commands. He knew the liquids he poured down DD's throat were highly dangerous. He followed DD's requests because he thought, like DD, that the finding of the horcrux was probably worth it. But that doesn't take away from Harry a portion of the responsibility for what occurred. He willingly joined in the risk of subjecting DD to possibly poisonous liquids. If DD told Severus to AK him, then the same situation applies. The only thing that would change this is if Severus had made an unbreakable vow to DD to obey him -- which I strongly doubt. So both Harry and Severus, would bear a portion of the responsibility for DD's death.
It is certainly true that Snape bears the bulk of the responsibility for Harry's initial dislike. However, by the end of OOTP, and certainly through almost all of HBP, Harry is determined to squelch any thoughts that Snape helped him in any way, and consciously feeds his anger and decision to blame Snape for Sirius' death.
Snape is sarcastic to Harry, uses insults about James to provoke Harry, and is generally hard on Harry and somewhat unfair to him in class (not all of what Harry sees as unfair is actually unfair). Snape's manner of treatment of Harry does justify Harry's intense dislike.
However, classroom meanness in no way forces Harry to make the leap from "Snape's a mean teacher and is mean to me and my friends in school" to "it's Snape's fault my godfather is dead" or "Snape's on LV's side," or "Snape doesn't deserve any respect for his privacy," and hoping he'll die at the end of the year of teaching DADA -- all of which Harry's thoughts, actions and attitudes reflect. Further, it is purely Harry's choice to absolutely refuse to acknowledge any of Snape's help in saving his life, or helping to ensure to safety of Harry and his friends (MOM fiasco, for instance).
At what point should Harry's supposedly growing maturity enable him to actually reflect more realistically on what he knows Snape has done (and not done)? The end of OOTP and HBP narrative sections are very clear that Harry has got to the point where he feeds his own hatred of Snape, regardless of, or in addition to the facts.
journeymom - May 3, 2006 8:14 am (#2042 of 2969)
If the potion killed Dd then it is a -fact- that Harry is at least partly, if not entirely responsible for Dd's death. Snape is also possibly responsible. Regardless of promises made. In a court of law Harry is culpable. If he finally realizes this he will have to re think what he assumed Snape did.
And though it's not logical, I'm hoping Harry will apply this re thinking to his thoughts about Snape's responsibility for his parents' deaths. Yes, Snape shouldn't have taken the prophecy to Voldemort. But Dd believes Snape didn't know what Voldemort would do with the prophecy. And it was Voldemort who killed his parents.
This will be a lot for one bereaved 17 year old young man to process.
der 905 - May 3, 2006 10:19 am (#2043 of 2969)
There's a lot of talk of how Snape should have known that he was endangering Lily when he took the prophecy to LV; but when both Trelawny and Snape said how long they've been at Hogwarts it was a two year difference, not one. Keeping this in mind doesn't that say that Trelawny gave the prophecy in say August of 1979 not in 1980? If this is true, than Snape took the prophecy to LV before Harry and Neville were even concieved and obviously had no idea how LV would react or who he was endangering.
Ann - May 3, 2006 10:36 am (#2044 of 2969)
Edited May 3, 2006 12:10 pm
Der 905, if Harry and Neville were born in 1980, that means they were conceived around Halloween 1979--which I think is just about the time that Trelawney gave the prophecy. After all, she might have started a few months into the school year and still counted it. (After all, McGonagall started in December.) But you're right that Snape didn't start teaching until two years later, in fall 1981. I wonder whether Dumbledore didn't have him do an apprenticeship with Slughorn for the intervening years. If he'd only graduated in 1978, winter of 1979 (when he apparently applied initially) would have seemed a bit early to start teaching. And potions wasn't his best subject--he wanted DADA--so he may have needed the extra training.
wynnleaf - May 3, 2006 12:12 pm (#2045 of 2969)
Edited May 3, 2006 1:12 pm
So if Harry had only just recently been conceived, Snape didn't even know the Potters were expecting a child. Of course, as Vulture has said in the past, it doesn't make much difference in culpability whether or not Snape knew who would be targeted, but simply that some family would likely be targeted. So yes, Snape, then a DE, is certainly guilty of putting some unknown family at risk for LV targeting them. He just didn't know it was the Potters.
It could also be argued that a 19 year old (approximately) Snape didn't necessarily really know what LV would do with the prophecy, or that any family would necessarily be attacked. That's harder to agree with.
haymoni - May 3, 2006 12:51 pm (#2046 of 2969)
I'm guessing that as soon as Voldy heard the prophesy and figured out who could have had a child that met the criteria, he was after them immediately.
This is why I hate assessing true dates to these books - this happened in 1979 and this happened in 1980 - it just complicates things. It doesn't make anything easier.
There is no way Voldy sat on this info for over a year. It just doesn't make sense.
Magic Words - May 3, 2006 1:24 pm (#2047 of 2969)
Both families were active in the Order and, I'm sure, knew better than to publicize information that could be used against them. Even if they didn't know about the prophecy, a child could be a liability (as a hostage, for instance). It may have taken quite a bit of time for Voldemort to learn, first that Harry and Neville existed and fit the criteria, then where to find them. Ironically, it sounds like the Potters were well hidden until they cast the Fidelius Charm.
winlia - May 3, 2006 2:59 pm (#2048 of 2969)
I think we're missing some info regarding how Voldy behaved early in his rise to power, and how he went about gathering his early recruits. I know I'm repeating myself (you all have graciously tolerated my doing so thus far, so I'll assume I can continue), but LV does not strike me as a particularly charismatic leader. At this point in time, a DE applicant would have to have a pretty robust lust for blood and be somewhat delusional about the odds and consequences of falling out of favor with LV. No one seems to have profited much, and, indeed, many have suffered, from their association with LV.
LV must have sucked in his early followers with a softer sell, less blood, more perks. A promise of power and exclusivity; more intimidation of the WW, less overt violence. (Which would appeal to the young Severus. He felt small and wanted to be powerful, but there's no evidence that he was interested in violence for its own sake.) And, as we know, once one is on the DE rolls, there's no leaving.
We won't really know how culpable Snape is for the Potters' deaths until we understand the early days of LV. And I bet we'll find out in book 7.
One more thought on the Worst Memory. We've talked about Harry's pov. I also keep forgetting that this erudite Lex group is not the target audience for these books. My eight-year-old had a stong reaction to the Worst Memory chapter. More so than to the Umbridge directed carving of the back of Harry's hand. (Which freaked me out, frankly.) It reminded me of the old Psych 101 yarn about people watching slap-stick film clips of window washers falling off scaffolding and a bride tripping while walking down the aisle and failing to laugh at the later because they can more easily relate. Most people can imagine being clumsy in public, but have a low probablity of a job-related fatality.
Ann - May 3, 2006 4:30 pm (#2049 of 2969)
Edited May 3, 2006 5:34 pm
As to the problem of how Snape could have been sucked in by LV. I think he was charismatic, before he lost his body to his own AK. After all, he seduced most of the teachers at Hogwarts and his post-Hogwarts employers, and the little old ladies with magical artifacts (Hepzibah Smith) into believing him. I've always been a bit puzzled by the chronology of Voldemort's rise to power, though. From PS/SS:1 we know that the wizarding world has had "precious little to celebrate for eleven years," which gives us quite a specific date--1970--for the beginning of Voldemort's first reign of terror. Yet it was possible for Regulus Black, two years younger than Snape and his cohort, who graduated in 1980, to enlist in the Death Eaters without quite realizing what he was getting into. Unless we assume that JKR has made a mistake or changed her mind (possible), that implies that Voldemort is very charming indeed. He manages to convince someone like Regulus (pure-blood fanatic, one assumes) that he has been misunderstood and that he is solidly behind the project to obtain pure-blood supremacy, both obviously (to us, who know he's a half-blood and an evil git) lies.
Like Haymoni, I have said this before. I can't believe that there were that many people who had defied Voldemort three times, nor do I believe that he'd forget who they were. I think that was the operative phrase--long before Lily and Alice gave birth, Voldemort knew that it was one of their children who would have the power to vanquish him. I suspect that Snape had something against the Longbottoms (look how he treats Neville), and knew that they had defied Voldemort three times. So he delivers the prophecy to his lord, and rather than immediately deciding to go after these annoying Aurors that Snape dislikes, he decides that James' and Lily's child is the more likely to be threatening. I think this was a tremendous shock to Snape (if he was fond of Lily), and probably resulted in his going to Dumbledore. And I think it happened almost immediately--autumn 1979. Which means that Snape didn't spend very long as a Death Eater.
winlia - May 3, 2006 5:26 pm (#2050 of 2969)
Ann
I don't know. If Snape had reason to believe that LV would kill an innocent child, be it Harry or Neville or someone unknown, and he passed the prophecy along anyway, that act would be, in my mind, far worse than anything else that we know he's done. I don't think that JKR intends him to be that nasty. If he's cold-blooded enough to wish a Longbottom-to-be to be murdered, I don't think Lily's death would upset him enough to make him turn away.
Somehow, whether it's youth, or shear stupidity, or some trick of LV's, I think it will turn out that Snape is only partially culpable for the Potters' deaths. Youth isn't a good excuse, and Snape's not stupid, but I just don't see much sense to Snape's character if he's that bad. A little bad, yes, but not a child murderer.
der 905 - May 3, 2006 11:20 pm (#2051 of 2969)
When Snape was giving Potter his occlumency lessons he said that if Harry didn't learn to control his emotions that LV would penetrate his mind with absurd ease. Snape could have been talking about himself there. Maybe Snape hadn't considered giving the prophecy right away to LV; either because he didn't place much value in prophecies or wanted to wait for time that it would prove most useful, but LV got it out of him anyway with legimens. LV forcing himself into Snape's mind and violating his privacy that way would have no doubt made Snape very angry. This could have been when Snape decided to become an excellent occlumens and went to DD for help.
rambkowalczyk - May 4, 2006 5:04 am (#2052 of 2969)
When Tralawney says the child will be born to someone who has defied me three times the possibility remains that neither the Potters nor the Longbottoms had defied Voldemort three times until after the child was born. That would be one possible reason for Voldemort waiting a year.
The second possibility was that Voldemort suspected there was more to the prophecy and wanted Snape to get the rest of it. Maybe Voldemort threatened to kill his mother and this is the reason Snape switched sides.
wynnleaf - May 4, 2006 5:07 am (#2053 of 2969)
Edited May 4, 2006 6:08 am
When Severus warns Harry about how his emotions can be used against him, I, too, assumed that he was speaking from experience. But I always thought that what he meant about using emotions against you was that LV could manipulate you much more easily by using your own emotions. I felt that it was likely then that Snape felt that he had been manipulated a great deal by LV because of not being able to control his emotions.
As regards who LV was targeting and Snape's knowledge of it.... I don't think Snape would have necessarily known which people had "defied" LV 3 times. LV might have kept track, but it seems unlikely that Severus would. Would he have realized that LV would try to kill the object of the prophecy? Maybe not. Sometimes people are drawn to individuals, groups, movements, etc. and delude themselves as to the true nature of those they're aligning themselves with. That seems particularly true of people joining up for some sort of overly zealous "cause," or joining for some particularly personal need that they feel they have to meet.
One more thought on the Worst Memory. We've talked about Harry's pov. I also keep forgetting that this erudite Lex group is not the target audience for these books. My eight-year-old had a strong reaction to the Worst Memory chapter. More so than to the Umbridge directed carving of the back of Harry's hand. (Which freaked me out, frankly.) It reminded me of the old Psych 101 yarn about people watching slap-stick film clips of window washers falling off scaffolding and a bride tripping while walking down the aisle and failing to laugh at the later because they can more easily relate. Most people can imagine being clumsy in public, but have a low probability of a job-related fatality.
winlia, I'm not sure if I've got the right "take" on what you're saying, but I often find myself wondering if I take some things in JKR's books from too realistic a viewpoint and therefore analyze them from too serious a viewpoint. For instance, if we're meant to just enjoy Fred and George's antics, we can't look too closely at what they do to some individuals (particularly Montague), because the effects of some of their exploits and antics are simply inexcusable from a more serious point of view. But I'm not sure how seriously JKR wants us to look at everything. Obviously, lots of things in her books are very serious indeed. But other things seem to just be for fun. I'm not always sure where the line is drawn. Of course, the "worst memory" scene is not "just for fun," but does she mean it to say so much about all of the characters involved? Or does she just want to give an impression about James and Co. that's pretty unpleasant?
Gina R Snape - May 4, 2006 9:31 am (#2054 of 2969)
Wow, I have homework for a few days and come back to 60+ messages!!!!
I wanted to thank those people who read my fanfic on the fanfic forum.
I think Snape overheard the prophecy and didn't really process the meaning of it until after he reported it. And I definitely think it didn't occur to either Voldemort or Snape that it would be the Potters for quite some time. I suspect they both figured it out at the same time, and that was when Snape ran to DD. My suspicion all along is that he wanted to get out of the DEs, and wanted to repay his life debt, and this was the sort of coincidence to make it possible to do both.
winlia - May 4, 2006 4:46 pm (#2055 of 2969)
wynnleaf
What I meant was that the Worst Memory was intended to make Snape more sympathetic as a character, and if JKR's readership were all adults, she might have chosen a different scene. To a kid (at least to my kid), the Worst Memory does seem like a really terrible thing. My son wouldn't relate as easily to Snape getting passed over for promotion, or jilted by a love, or some of the other things that tend to haunt us adults.
I too wonder how seriously we're meant to take some of the events. Obviously, we don't think too deeply about the real-life consequences of using thumbscrews, a practice that Filch wants to reinstate. I wonder, though, if there is a link between some of the bad behavior and death. Is Sirius' attempt to trick Snape into a confrontation with werewolf Lupin meant to mitigate the impact on the reader of Sirius' early death? The same with James' touted arrogance? And what does that mean for Snape given that he told the prophecy?
When I read "The Devil in the White City", the story of a real serial killer who was active a century ago, I was struck by how the author kept the focus on the audacity of killer (and the history of early Chicago) and off the suffering of his victims. (Now you folks all think I'm a ghoul, and really I'm not.) It's really an entertaining read, and you can see at the end how the author finally lets the ugliness and brutality come into sharper focus. (I'm a Chicagoian, which makes the book more appealing. The "White City" refers to the Columbian Exposition.)
Even though I agree that we think too hard and place too much significance on some of the detail, JRK is telling a tale, and there are some specific things that she wants her readers to think and feel. Like all of us, Snape isn't entirely good or bad, but she wants us to have some sympathy for him. The main message seems to be that Harry has remained good, kind, and loving in spite of all the loss and loneliness that he's suffered. By over-thinkings things, I think we lose some of the cohesivenss that the action and words of the characters are meant to have.
Puck - May 4, 2006 6:40 pm (#2056 of 2969)
Well, let LV and Harry, Snape is also half-blood, and has grown up without the unconditional love a child needs. LV turns to the dark, Harry stays in the light. Snape, I'd say he falls into the shadow, in between the light and the dark. It seems he has given up on being liked or happy, and at this point seeks to be respected and useful.
Saracene - May 5, 2006 3:12 am (#2057 of 2969)
"If Snape had reason to believe that LV would kill an innocent child, be it Harry or Neville or someone unknown, and he passed the prophecy along anyway, that act would be, in my mind, far worse than anything else that we know he's done."
But what on earth could Snape expect Voldemort to do if he found out that there was going to be born a boy with the power to vanquish him? Was Voldemort going to show up at the door with a bunch of flowers and a congratulations card? I don't think so.
From what Dumbledore told Harry, it looks like Snape only felt remorse when he realised that Voldemort was going to target the specific family, namely the Potters, rather than -a- family. Well, what if he learned that Voldemort decided to go after some other child, and destroyed some other couple Snape didn't know personally in the process? Mind you, I don't think that Snape was such a heartless monster that he consciously decided that he was ok with Voldemort hunting down a baby. But even if it was a case of Snape simply forcing himself not to think about the consequences for the aforementioned baby, that still doesn't exactly give him much credit IMO.
As for what Snape might have done in his DE days, I remember JKR saying that Snape could see Thestrals and that we must not forget that he was a Death Eater and "seen things". Which seems to indicate that Snape at the very least got to witness some nasty stuff even if he didn't actually do horrible things himself.
wynnleaf - May 5, 2006 4:59 am (#2058 of 2969)
Saracene,
On the one hand, I agree that you'd expect that any reasonable person could figure out what LV would do once he heard about the prophecy. On the other hand, people following extreme leaders and groups can become very blinded. Sometimes these people seem utterly deluded about just how far the leaders will go to pursue their ends, and other times the followers may know what the leaders will try to do, but delude themselves into thinking that it's necessary. For instance, one reads that suicide bombers (generally young people) are deluded into believing all sorts of lies in order to get them to accept the "necessity" of the innocent lives that are lost through their actions. It's believable to me that as a young person, Snape could have been so deceived and only really realize the truth of what was going on when it became personal -- when LV targeted people (or a person) he cared about.
Die Zimtzicke - May 5, 2006 5:11 am (#2059 of 2969)
Plus we know that many Pureblood families thought Voldemort was right, until it went too far. Snape's father could have been one of them. Was he still alive at the time? What kind of family pressure or peer pressure was at play? Could Snape have been in a position where, if he didn't tell Voldemorrt SOMETHING important he was going to be killed like Regulus?
And we know he didn't tell the whole prophecy. Where did he stop and why? Good people make bad decisions at times. Average people are certainly capable of making horrific decisions.
wynnleaf - May 5, 2006 6:13 am (#2060 of 2969)
Die Zimtzicke,
Sorry, I don't think I follow. Snape's father was a muggle.
Also, DD said that Snape only heard half of the prophecy because Alberforth caught him listening at the door before he'd heard the whole thing.
Edited May 2, 2006 8:36 am
And I think that the reason Snape would find this particular memory so painful is because in it he was powerless, humiliated and stripped of dignity. IMO he'd find this sort of situation terrible precisely because he was helpless to stop it. It's also telling that, prior to the memory, Snape called James arrogant and whatnot but -never- hinted that James bullied him - because to admit that you were bullied places you in a position of weakness and for Snape, with his pride, that would have been unbearable. I don't really subscribe to the theory that Snape's insult of Lily was what really made the memory his worst. Snape's reaction after he caught Harry out IMO suggests that this memory is all about James and what he did to him.
About 10 years ago I recall reading a review on a book by 2 psychologists who had studied childhood memories and why we hold on to certain ones as important, while dismissing others. Their conclusion was that many childhood memories are retained as "important" because those memories act as symbols for what we believe about ourselves or our past. Certain memories sort of epitomize certain views that we have of ourselves or how we view our place among others and the world. So for instance, a person might recall the details of a particular argument with a parent because that argument incorporates so many aspects of how the adult now views that relationship. Or I, for example, recall all of the fine detail of an embarrassing series of events in 1st grade, almost solely because they are a picture of how I viewed my nerdy self in relation to other children. If I were to apply these psych's view of childhood and adolescent memories to Snapes Worst Memory, it would follow that Snape particularly focused on this memory because it epitomized his view of his past, in regard to certain experiences -- perhaps only his relations with the Marauders, or perhaps with classmates in general. Think of all the pieces in this particular event -- he's minding his own business, he's ganged up on by the Marauders whose attack comes from out of the blue, major embarrassment, helplessness, most people just laughing about it, Lupin doing nothing. Lily's intervention attempt would add to the embarrassment. In other words, this is Snape's worst memory, not because nothing this bad had ever happened before or would happen again, but because it so clearly depicted what he would consider the usual way he was treated by the Marauders.
As Saracene pointed out, Snape never says the Marauders bullied him. He says they were afraid to attack him one on one. He words it in a way that implies his strength, but in fact the incidences themselves would have highlighted a sense of weakness and vulnerability. I think it's his worst memory because it incorporated every element with which he viewed this ongoing 5-7 year bullying by the Marauders.
I'm sorry, but I think we may be trivializing (is that a word??) the use of "Mudblood". I thought it was possibly the worst thing you could call someone.
On the term "mudblood" being the "worst thing" you can call someone....Oh, people say that all the time about some word or another. It doesn't usually mean there's literally no other word that's as bad. It just generally means that the word is really, really bad.
If this is Snapes Worst Memory because of calling Lily a mudblood, that just makes incredibly little sense when one considers that it was his action of taking the prophecy to LV that ultimately caused her death. How could calling her a mudblood compare to that???? If he really cared about Lily, and his worst memories are because of something he did to Lily, then why would it be calling her a bad name and ruining a friendship, rather than telling LV a prophecy that concerned her and causing her death?
No, I think the focus of the worst memory was in part the specific incident with the Marauders, but primarily because it summed up his view of how he was both treated by the Marauders, and perhaps how he was viewed by and treated by others in general. Remember, only Lily came to his defense and most people seemed rather entertained by the whole thing.
haymoni - May 2, 2006 7:34 am (#2022 of 2969)
Edited May 2, 2006 8:37 am
HH11 - I don't think it would have been the first time that they spoke - they had been in Gryffindor together for 5 years, but it could have provided James with a way to talk to Lily.
"I can't believe Snivellus called you that, Evans."
Something like that.
Wynnleaf - that was how I always took the memory, but the more I thought about it - why was this "The Worst"??
I would bet my wand arm that there were many incidents like this - why does this one stand out?
Die Zimtzicke - May 2, 2006 8:24 am (#2023 of 2969)
I know childhood trauma can be a major force in someone's life, but Snape was a Death Eater. I can't believe the worst thing he ever saw or participated in was some petty childhood slight. I really want a better explanation of that.
But then Jo ended OotP with the chapter title "The Second War Begins" and I didn't see much war in book six. So, who knows?
journeymom - May 2, 2006 8:39 am (#2024 of 2969)
"I just don't think the humiliation part is the key. It has to be the relationship with Lily going down the tubes. "
Can it simply be both? Boys/young men that age are all about jockeying for position, socially. Humiliation like this at James' hands would be a major blow. Yes, they'd already been at each other for 5 years prior, but maybe nothing this harsh before.
Though this scene takes place in 5th year, and Severus and Lily have potions together in their 6th year.
Does it seem to anybody that JKR is implying that Lily copied from Severus? I can't imagine she'd do that to Lily. Did Severus help her or was she brilliant in her own right? Was this just another example of Slughorn acknowledging the beautiful people and ignoring the rest? Slughorn probably didn't think too highly of student Snape. HBP is the first we hear about her doing so well in potions.
wynnleaf - May 2, 2006 9:09 am (#2025 of 2969)
Edited May 2, 2006 10:13 am
When Slughorn talked to Snape at the Christmas party, he mentioned Harry's ability in potions. This is the only time Slughorn does not say that Harry got it from Lily. He does mention how well Harry brewed a certain potion and says, "even you, Severus..." (can't recall it all), but he seems to imply that Snape was very, very good and Harry had done as well or perhaps better than "even you." That does indicate that Slughorn thought Snape was particularly good at potions.
Plus, I always wondered at Snape being invited to the Christmas party in the first place. Slughorn doesn't invite all and sundry, and not even all of the faculty (or at least they don't all come). So why is Snape there? I would tend to think that he would not go to such a party if he hadn't been a part of the Slug Club long before. I just can't believe, if Slughorn had overlooked him in school, Snape would be attending his Christmas Party unless he absolutely had to be there.
Okay, so if Snape was in the Slug Club, that would mean Slughorn appreciated something about Snape. Since it probably wasn't his family, and certainly not his wealth, charm, etc., it would almost have to be his talent.
I am also struck by Slughorn's NOT mentioning Harry's ability coming from Lily when around Snape. Is that pure coincidence? JKR has Slughorn mention Lily on ever other occasion where he praises Harry's ability. But not around Snape. My personal opinion is that Slughorn is, regardless of motives, more attuned to other people's feelings than one might think (he knew just what to say around Hagrid, for instance). I think he didn't mention Lily around Severus because it would, for whatever reason, not be comfortable for Severus.
Back to "worst memory."
I know childhood trauma can be a major force in someone's life, but Snape was a Death Eater. I can't believe the worst thing he ever saw or participated in was some petty childhood slight. I really want a better explanation of that.
I certainly don't believe that it's his worst memory because it's the worst thing that ever happened to him. I think it's because this memory defines or characterizes something for him that is extraordinarily important to him.
haymoni - May 2, 2006 9:34 am (#2026 of 2969)
I think Sluggy invited Snape because he is the head of his old house.
Magic Words - May 2, 2006 10:15 am (#2027 of 2969)
I bet Snape's memories pertaining to the prophecy were in that pensieve as well, probably buried as deep as possible beneath the more embarassing but ultimately harmless memories from his school days.
wynnleaf - May 2, 2006 10:41 am (#2028 of 2969)
Edited May 2, 2006 11:42 am
I think Sluggy invited Snape because he is the head of his old house.
Could be. But why did Snape go? He didn't expect to see Draco. It doesn't seem to have had any benefit for the Order, for LV, for spying, for anything else I can see. All the faculty didn't seem to be there, so it didn't seem like attendance was required. Why did he go?
I don't think he'd have gone if he'd had any ill-will toward Slughorn. And I can't help but think he would have born ill-will toward Slughorn if Slughorn had disregarded him and considered him not worth involving in the Slug Club. Not that I think Snape would have cared about being in the Club, but I think he'd have disliked it if Slughorn had included others for their wealth, charm, family connections, or talent, but had not considered him worthy of notice. And anyway, Slughorn's "even you" seemed to me to indicate that he did think Snape quite talented in potions.
haymoni - May 2, 2006 10:49 am (#2029 of 2969)
What else does he have to do??? Stay in his quarters and zap flies off the ceiling??
I don't see Snape as being anti-social when it comes to the other teachers.
I could see Sluggy being proud of Snape as one who was from his house and eventually taking over the Potions position. He could even be proud of him coming over from the Death Eaters back to the "good" side.
Soul Search - May 2, 2006 11:06 am (#2030 of 2969)
Building on my #2018 post, why was it important that Harry not see this memory?
The other thing we learn is that James was rather taken with Lily, but she (maybe) wasn't interested in him. Doesn't seem quite the reason Harry shouldn't see this memory, either.
From a OotP plot standpoint, Harry seeing this memory lead to his doubting his father's character and desire to talk to Sirius. He talked to Sirius, then that plot line seemed to just end. What was the point?
rambkowalczyk - May 2, 2006 11:27 am (#2031 of 2969)
Another line of inquiry could be is What was in the other 2 memories that Snape took out. I thought one of them might have been the werewolf encounter and based on book 6 the third might be telling Voldemort the prophecy or some future point when Voldemort decided to kill the Potters as a result of it.
It might be that this is his worst memory because to him this severed any hope of a relationship with Lily not because Lily wouldn't have forgiven him but because he couldn't forgive himself. Although as a Halfblood he could theoretically sneer at Mudbloods, I suspect that he chose to ignore bloodlines out of respect to his father. Therefore when he called her that name he might have broken a promise to himself to not be as arrogant as a pureblood
Magic Words - May 2, 2006 11:35 am (#2032 of 2969)
What's more, we know that plotline is important enough that they're not cutting it from the OotP movie, when I'd think they'd be cutting whatever they could for time's sake.
haymoni - May 2, 2006 12:03 pm (#2033 of 2969)
Are these memories still in the Pensieve?
How do you get a specific memory out of it?
It seems as though Harry just fell in.
I'm sure Hermione knows how to work it. Maybe they could view anything that has to do with Snape.
Ann - May 2, 2006 2:50 pm (#2034 of 2969)
Okay, everyone thinks that a childhood memory couldn't be the worst memory a Death Eater could have. But try this: Suppose that, up to the point of the scene in the Pensieve, Snape had been (at least) friends with Lily. I suspect that may be part of the reason for the animosity between James and Snape. James is used to getting anything he wants, and here is this nerdy Slytherin who is friends with the girl he's interested in--a very popular girl, JKR tells us--who doesn't like James.
Snape is so miserable and mortified that she should see him in this helpless and humiliating situation that he lashes out at her, using a slur on her birth, one that typifies everything that all the Gryffindors say is wrong with Slytherin. Snape is nothing if not an absolutist. He'd feel his action was inexcusable (regardless of how ready she might be to excuse it), and the only way to go from there was further down that racist, Death Eater road. There was no hope in salvaging the good in his life that was represented by Lily.
I think this is his worst memory (and, since it's a chapter title, it's JKR telling us that it is) because he sees it as the moment that he stepped onto the path that made him a Death Eater. It's a turning point.
wynnleaf - May 2, 2006 3:10 pm (#2035 of 2969)
Ann, I think your explanation works. I could see Snape thinking (wrongly) that calling Lily a mudblood was so inexcusable that he couldn't apologize to her and their friendship was ruined. After that, she gradually starts to hang out with James (supposedly he reformed), and Snape turns more and more to all that he thinks at the time is left to him -- the darker side.
winlia - May 2, 2006 3:18 pm (#2036 of 2969)
My Mother always said that I was overly-sensitive, but I have to admit that being dangled by an ankle and unable to retaliate while my classmates laughed would win out as worst over any of my own memories. Of course, I've never been a death eater either...
I think at that point in Severus' life, Lily's good opinion was important to him, and her witnessing his humiliation added to the hurt. Snape is very proud, and his pride is almost all he's got. He doesn't seem to have, or ever have had, much in the way of love or friendship, maybe not even genuine respect. (I'm not saying that he has none of those things, just that the amount he has is insufficient.) He's honed his wizarding skills, and it is important to him not to be bested. So I think the humiliation itself is enough to make the memory stand as worst.
journeymom - May 2, 2006 3:19 pm (#2037 of 2969)
Edited May 2, 2006 4:21 pm
Does anybody know what, as a Death Eater, has Severus Snape done? He took half of the prophecy to Voldemort. That's all we know for a fact that he has done that's nasty. It can be inferred that because we know Death Eaters have killed whole families, including children, that he may have participated in something like that. Fan fictions certainly have Snape doing the worst of the worst, most heinous, vile acts.
Taking the prophecy to Voldemort turned out to be a terrible thing. But Snape is not responsible for Voldemort's actions, Snape did not kill the Potters. Is there anything in the books that I'm missing? Did he poison a bunny or burn down an old lady's house?
winlia - May 2, 2006 3:58 pm (#2038 of 2969)
journeymom
I know of no evidence that he did anything evil, or even slightly nasty, as a DE. I imagine he at least saw or heard of something, though, that made him turn away. Something that might prey on his mind, whether he was a participant or not, and constitute a "worst" memory.
Solitaire - May 2, 2006 3:59 pm (#2039 of 2969)
I get so far behind, lately, that my posts seem out of sync. However, I must respond to #1980: (If Dd is dead) Harry is just as culpable for Dd's death as Snape is.
If whatever Dumbledore drank was the real cause of his death, then Harry is still not responsible; he was following Dumbledore's orders, which he promised to do, no matter what. Whether or not that is also true of Snape remains to be seen.
As to considering Snape's part in his parents' deaths in that light ... I do not see how. To be sure, Snape did not kill Lily and James, nor did he force Voldemort to do so. However, are you suggesting that James and Lily (or even Dumbledore) asked Snape to tell Voldemort the prophecy? Harry was following Dumbledore's orders. Snape freely chose to give Voldemort information that would endanger the Potters, for he surely knew Voldemort would not be able to resist acting on it. I guess I do not understand this particular analogy.
Snape is prejudiced against Harry from day one because of James, and Harry is determined to see only bad in Snape. Both are being unfair. The difference is that Snape is a grown man and Harry is a boy! We are not talking about an even playing field in terms of maturity and judgement and personal responsibility! The bulk of the accountability here lies with Professor Snape
I wholeheartedly agree. Snape not only set this conflict in motion, but he has kept it fueled from day one. I do not believe Harry would have disliked Snape had Snape not wanted to be disliked by him. However, I hope Harry can get past his feelings for Snape and look at things realistically. If he cannot, then I worry that all of his plans and strategies may be skewed (and poisoned) by his feelings about Snape. This concerns me.
Solitaire
Laura W - May 3, 2006 1:55 am (#2040 of 2969)
Solitaire quoted me (Laura W): "Snape is prejudiced against Harry from day one because of James, and Harry is determined to see only bad in Snape. Both are being unfair. The difference is that Snape is a grown man and Harry is a boy! We are not talking about an even playing field in terms of maturity and judgement and personal responsibility! The bulk of the accountability here lies with Professor Snape " ...
and then went on to write: "I wholeheartedly agree. Snape not only set this conflict in motion, but he has kept it fueled from day one. I do not believe Harry would have disliked Snape had Snape not wanted to be disliked by him. ..."
Hmm, interesting way of looking at it: "had Snape not wanted to be disliked by him." Maybe there was something in the plan (Dumbledore's plan, which Snape went along with?) making it advantageous to Harry's ultimate survival for him to hate Severus Snape so much from the time he entered Hogwarts at 11 until he left it.
Boy, am I reaching here! Just another far-out theory. (grin)
Laura
wynnleaf - May 3, 2006 6:27 am (#2041 of 2969)
Edited May 3, 2006 7:29 am
If whatever Dumbledore drank was the real cause of his death, then Harry is still not responsible; he was following Dumbledore's orders, which he promised to do, no matter what.
I don't agree that just because someone requests that you do something, you bear no accountability for the outcome. DD told Harry that LV probably wouldn't want the cave liquids to kill someone immediately. And he told Harry to make him drink the liquids. But Harry is not a robot, forced to follow DD's commands. He knew the liquids he poured down DD's throat were highly dangerous. He followed DD's requests because he thought, like DD, that the finding of the horcrux was probably worth it. But that doesn't take away from Harry a portion of the responsibility for what occurred. He willingly joined in the risk of subjecting DD to possibly poisonous liquids. If DD told Severus to AK him, then the same situation applies. The only thing that would change this is if Severus had made an unbreakable vow to DD to obey him -- which I strongly doubt. So both Harry and Severus, would bear a portion of the responsibility for DD's death.
It is certainly true that Snape bears the bulk of the responsibility for Harry's initial dislike. However, by the end of OOTP, and certainly through almost all of HBP, Harry is determined to squelch any thoughts that Snape helped him in any way, and consciously feeds his anger and decision to blame Snape for Sirius' death.
Snape is sarcastic to Harry, uses insults about James to provoke Harry, and is generally hard on Harry and somewhat unfair to him in class (not all of what Harry sees as unfair is actually unfair). Snape's manner of treatment of Harry does justify Harry's intense dislike.
However, classroom meanness in no way forces Harry to make the leap from "Snape's a mean teacher and is mean to me and my friends in school" to "it's Snape's fault my godfather is dead" or "Snape's on LV's side," or "Snape doesn't deserve any respect for his privacy," and hoping he'll die at the end of the year of teaching DADA -- all of which Harry's thoughts, actions and attitudes reflect. Further, it is purely Harry's choice to absolutely refuse to acknowledge any of Snape's help in saving his life, or helping to ensure to safety of Harry and his friends (MOM fiasco, for instance).
At what point should Harry's supposedly growing maturity enable him to actually reflect more realistically on what he knows Snape has done (and not done)? The end of OOTP and HBP narrative sections are very clear that Harry has got to the point where he feeds his own hatred of Snape, regardless of, or in addition to the facts.
journeymom - May 3, 2006 8:14 am (#2042 of 2969)
If the potion killed Dd then it is a -fact- that Harry is at least partly, if not entirely responsible for Dd's death. Snape is also possibly responsible. Regardless of promises made. In a court of law Harry is culpable. If he finally realizes this he will have to re think what he assumed Snape did.
And though it's not logical, I'm hoping Harry will apply this re thinking to his thoughts about Snape's responsibility for his parents' deaths. Yes, Snape shouldn't have taken the prophecy to Voldemort. But Dd believes Snape didn't know what Voldemort would do with the prophecy. And it was Voldemort who killed his parents.
This will be a lot for one bereaved 17 year old young man to process.
der 905 - May 3, 2006 10:19 am (#2043 of 2969)
There's a lot of talk of how Snape should have known that he was endangering Lily when he took the prophecy to LV; but when both Trelawny and Snape said how long they've been at Hogwarts it was a two year difference, not one. Keeping this in mind doesn't that say that Trelawny gave the prophecy in say August of 1979 not in 1980? If this is true, than Snape took the prophecy to LV before Harry and Neville were even concieved and obviously had no idea how LV would react or who he was endangering.
Ann - May 3, 2006 10:36 am (#2044 of 2969)
Edited May 3, 2006 12:10 pm
Der 905, if Harry and Neville were born in 1980, that means they were conceived around Halloween 1979--which I think is just about the time that Trelawney gave the prophecy. After all, she might have started a few months into the school year and still counted it. (After all, McGonagall started in December.) But you're right that Snape didn't start teaching until two years later, in fall 1981. I wonder whether Dumbledore didn't have him do an apprenticeship with Slughorn for the intervening years. If he'd only graduated in 1978, winter of 1979 (when he apparently applied initially) would have seemed a bit early to start teaching. And potions wasn't his best subject--he wanted DADA--so he may have needed the extra training.
wynnleaf - May 3, 2006 12:12 pm (#2045 of 2969)
Edited May 3, 2006 1:12 pm
So if Harry had only just recently been conceived, Snape didn't even know the Potters were expecting a child. Of course, as Vulture has said in the past, it doesn't make much difference in culpability whether or not Snape knew who would be targeted, but simply that some family would likely be targeted. So yes, Snape, then a DE, is certainly guilty of putting some unknown family at risk for LV targeting them. He just didn't know it was the Potters.
It could also be argued that a 19 year old (approximately) Snape didn't necessarily really know what LV would do with the prophecy, or that any family would necessarily be attacked. That's harder to agree with.
haymoni - May 3, 2006 12:51 pm (#2046 of 2969)
I'm guessing that as soon as Voldy heard the prophesy and figured out who could have had a child that met the criteria, he was after them immediately.
This is why I hate assessing true dates to these books - this happened in 1979 and this happened in 1980 - it just complicates things. It doesn't make anything easier.
There is no way Voldy sat on this info for over a year. It just doesn't make sense.
Magic Words - May 3, 2006 1:24 pm (#2047 of 2969)
Both families were active in the Order and, I'm sure, knew better than to publicize information that could be used against them. Even if they didn't know about the prophecy, a child could be a liability (as a hostage, for instance). It may have taken quite a bit of time for Voldemort to learn, first that Harry and Neville existed and fit the criteria, then where to find them. Ironically, it sounds like the Potters were well hidden until they cast the Fidelius Charm.
winlia - May 3, 2006 2:59 pm (#2048 of 2969)
I think we're missing some info regarding how Voldy behaved early in his rise to power, and how he went about gathering his early recruits. I know I'm repeating myself (you all have graciously tolerated my doing so thus far, so I'll assume I can continue), but LV does not strike me as a particularly charismatic leader. At this point in time, a DE applicant would have to have a pretty robust lust for blood and be somewhat delusional about the odds and consequences of falling out of favor with LV. No one seems to have profited much, and, indeed, many have suffered, from their association with LV.
LV must have sucked in his early followers with a softer sell, less blood, more perks. A promise of power and exclusivity; more intimidation of the WW, less overt violence. (Which would appeal to the young Severus. He felt small and wanted to be powerful, but there's no evidence that he was interested in violence for its own sake.) And, as we know, once one is on the DE rolls, there's no leaving.
We won't really know how culpable Snape is for the Potters' deaths until we understand the early days of LV. And I bet we'll find out in book 7.
One more thought on the Worst Memory. We've talked about Harry's pov. I also keep forgetting that this erudite Lex group is not the target audience for these books. My eight-year-old had a stong reaction to the Worst Memory chapter. More so than to the Umbridge directed carving of the back of Harry's hand. (Which freaked me out, frankly.) It reminded me of the old Psych 101 yarn about people watching slap-stick film clips of window washers falling off scaffolding and a bride tripping while walking down the aisle and failing to laugh at the later because they can more easily relate. Most people can imagine being clumsy in public, but have a low probablity of a job-related fatality.
Ann - May 3, 2006 4:30 pm (#2049 of 2969)
Edited May 3, 2006 5:34 pm
As to the problem of how Snape could have been sucked in by LV. I think he was charismatic, before he lost his body to his own AK. After all, he seduced most of the teachers at Hogwarts and his post-Hogwarts employers, and the little old ladies with magical artifacts (Hepzibah Smith) into believing him. I've always been a bit puzzled by the chronology of Voldemort's rise to power, though. From PS/SS:1 we know that the wizarding world has had "precious little to celebrate for eleven years," which gives us quite a specific date--1970--for the beginning of Voldemort's first reign of terror. Yet it was possible for Regulus Black, two years younger than Snape and his cohort, who graduated in 1980, to enlist in the Death Eaters without quite realizing what he was getting into. Unless we assume that JKR has made a mistake or changed her mind (possible), that implies that Voldemort is very charming indeed. He manages to convince someone like Regulus (pure-blood fanatic, one assumes) that he has been misunderstood and that he is solidly behind the project to obtain pure-blood supremacy, both obviously (to us, who know he's a half-blood and an evil git) lies.
Like Haymoni, I have said this before. I can't believe that there were that many people who had defied Voldemort three times, nor do I believe that he'd forget who they were. I think that was the operative phrase--long before Lily and Alice gave birth, Voldemort knew that it was one of their children who would have the power to vanquish him. I suspect that Snape had something against the Longbottoms (look how he treats Neville), and knew that they had defied Voldemort three times. So he delivers the prophecy to his lord, and rather than immediately deciding to go after these annoying Aurors that Snape dislikes, he decides that James' and Lily's child is the more likely to be threatening. I think this was a tremendous shock to Snape (if he was fond of Lily), and probably resulted in his going to Dumbledore. And I think it happened almost immediately--autumn 1979. Which means that Snape didn't spend very long as a Death Eater.
winlia - May 3, 2006 5:26 pm (#2050 of 2969)
Ann
I don't know. If Snape had reason to believe that LV would kill an innocent child, be it Harry or Neville or someone unknown, and he passed the prophecy along anyway, that act would be, in my mind, far worse than anything else that we know he's done. I don't think that JKR intends him to be that nasty. If he's cold-blooded enough to wish a Longbottom-to-be to be murdered, I don't think Lily's death would upset him enough to make him turn away.
Somehow, whether it's youth, or shear stupidity, or some trick of LV's, I think it will turn out that Snape is only partially culpable for the Potters' deaths. Youth isn't a good excuse, and Snape's not stupid, but I just don't see much sense to Snape's character if he's that bad. A little bad, yes, but not a child murderer.
der 905 - May 3, 2006 11:20 pm (#2051 of 2969)
When Snape was giving Potter his occlumency lessons he said that if Harry didn't learn to control his emotions that LV would penetrate his mind with absurd ease. Snape could have been talking about himself there. Maybe Snape hadn't considered giving the prophecy right away to LV; either because he didn't place much value in prophecies or wanted to wait for time that it would prove most useful, but LV got it out of him anyway with legimens. LV forcing himself into Snape's mind and violating his privacy that way would have no doubt made Snape very angry. This could have been when Snape decided to become an excellent occlumens and went to DD for help.
rambkowalczyk - May 4, 2006 5:04 am (#2052 of 2969)
When Tralawney says the child will be born to someone who has defied me three times the possibility remains that neither the Potters nor the Longbottoms had defied Voldemort three times until after the child was born. That would be one possible reason for Voldemort waiting a year.
The second possibility was that Voldemort suspected there was more to the prophecy and wanted Snape to get the rest of it. Maybe Voldemort threatened to kill his mother and this is the reason Snape switched sides.
wynnleaf - May 4, 2006 5:07 am (#2053 of 2969)
Edited May 4, 2006 6:08 am
When Severus warns Harry about how his emotions can be used against him, I, too, assumed that he was speaking from experience. But I always thought that what he meant about using emotions against you was that LV could manipulate you much more easily by using your own emotions. I felt that it was likely then that Snape felt that he had been manipulated a great deal by LV because of not being able to control his emotions.
As regards who LV was targeting and Snape's knowledge of it.... I don't think Snape would have necessarily known which people had "defied" LV 3 times. LV might have kept track, but it seems unlikely that Severus would. Would he have realized that LV would try to kill the object of the prophecy? Maybe not. Sometimes people are drawn to individuals, groups, movements, etc. and delude themselves as to the true nature of those they're aligning themselves with. That seems particularly true of people joining up for some sort of overly zealous "cause," or joining for some particularly personal need that they feel they have to meet.
One more thought on the Worst Memory. We've talked about Harry's pov. I also keep forgetting that this erudite Lex group is not the target audience for these books. My eight-year-old had a strong reaction to the Worst Memory chapter. More so than to the Umbridge directed carving of the back of Harry's hand. (Which freaked me out, frankly.) It reminded me of the old Psych 101 yarn about people watching slap-stick film clips of window washers falling off scaffolding and a bride tripping while walking down the aisle and failing to laugh at the later because they can more easily relate. Most people can imagine being clumsy in public, but have a low probability of a job-related fatality.
winlia, I'm not sure if I've got the right "take" on what you're saying, but I often find myself wondering if I take some things in JKR's books from too realistic a viewpoint and therefore analyze them from too serious a viewpoint. For instance, if we're meant to just enjoy Fred and George's antics, we can't look too closely at what they do to some individuals (particularly Montague), because the effects of some of their exploits and antics are simply inexcusable from a more serious point of view. But I'm not sure how seriously JKR wants us to look at everything. Obviously, lots of things in her books are very serious indeed. But other things seem to just be for fun. I'm not always sure where the line is drawn. Of course, the "worst memory" scene is not "just for fun," but does she mean it to say so much about all of the characters involved? Or does she just want to give an impression about James and Co. that's pretty unpleasant?
Gina R Snape - May 4, 2006 9:31 am (#2054 of 2969)
Wow, I have homework for a few days and come back to 60+ messages!!!!
I wanted to thank those people who read my fanfic on the fanfic forum.
I think Snape overheard the prophecy and didn't really process the meaning of it until after he reported it. And I definitely think it didn't occur to either Voldemort or Snape that it would be the Potters for quite some time. I suspect they both figured it out at the same time, and that was when Snape ran to DD. My suspicion all along is that he wanted to get out of the DEs, and wanted to repay his life debt, and this was the sort of coincidence to make it possible to do both.
winlia - May 4, 2006 4:46 pm (#2055 of 2969)
wynnleaf
What I meant was that the Worst Memory was intended to make Snape more sympathetic as a character, and if JKR's readership were all adults, she might have chosen a different scene. To a kid (at least to my kid), the Worst Memory does seem like a really terrible thing. My son wouldn't relate as easily to Snape getting passed over for promotion, or jilted by a love, or some of the other things that tend to haunt us adults.
I too wonder how seriously we're meant to take some of the events. Obviously, we don't think too deeply about the real-life consequences of using thumbscrews, a practice that Filch wants to reinstate. I wonder, though, if there is a link between some of the bad behavior and death. Is Sirius' attempt to trick Snape into a confrontation with werewolf Lupin meant to mitigate the impact on the reader of Sirius' early death? The same with James' touted arrogance? And what does that mean for Snape given that he told the prophecy?
When I read "The Devil in the White City", the story of a real serial killer who was active a century ago, I was struck by how the author kept the focus on the audacity of killer (and the history of early Chicago) and off the suffering of his victims. (Now you folks all think I'm a ghoul, and really I'm not.) It's really an entertaining read, and you can see at the end how the author finally lets the ugliness and brutality come into sharper focus. (I'm a Chicagoian, which makes the book more appealing. The "White City" refers to the Columbian Exposition.)
Even though I agree that we think too hard and place too much significance on some of the detail, JRK is telling a tale, and there are some specific things that she wants her readers to think and feel. Like all of us, Snape isn't entirely good or bad, but she wants us to have some sympathy for him. The main message seems to be that Harry has remained good, kind, and loving in spite of all the loss and loneliness that he's suffered. By over-thinkings things, I think we lose some of the cohesivenss that the action and words of the characters are meant to have.
Puck - May 4, 2006 6:40 pm (#2056 of 2969)
Well, let LV and Harry, Snape is also half-blood, and has grown up without the unconditional love a child needs. LV turns to the dark, Harry stays in the light. Snape, I'd say he falls into the shadow, in between the light and the dark. It seems he has given up on being liked or happy, and at this point seeks to be respected and useful.
Saracene - May 5, 2006 3:12 am (#2057 of 2969)
"If Snape had reason to believe that LV would kill an innocent child, be it Harry or Neville or someone unknown, and he passed the prophecy along anyway, that act would be, in my mind, far worse than anything else that we know he's done."
But what on earth could Snape expect Voldemort to do if he found out that there was going to be born a boy with the power to vanquish him? Was Voldemort going to show up at the door with a bunch of flowers and a congratulations card? I don't think so.
From what Dumbledore told Harry, it looks like Snape only felt remorse when he realised that Voldemort was going to target the specific family, namely the Potters, rather than -a- family. Well, what if he learned that Voldemort decided to go after some other child, and destroyed some other couple Snape didn't know personally in the process? Mind you, I don't think that Snape was such a heartless monster that he consciously decided that he was ok with Voldemort hunting down a baby. But even if it was a case of Snape simply forcing himself not to think about the consequences for the aforementioned baby, that still doesn't exactly give him much credit IMO.
As for what Snape might have done in his DE days, I remember JKR saying that Snape could see Thestrals and that we must not forget that he was a Death Eater and "seen things". Which seems to indicate that Snape at the very least got to witness some nasty stuff even if he didn't actually do horrible things himself.
wynnleaf - May 5, 2006 4:59 am (#2058 of 2969)
Saracene,
On the one hand, I agree that you'd expect that any reasonable person could figure out what LV would do once he heard about the prophecy. On the other hand, people following extreme leaders and groups can become very blinded. Sometimes these people seem utterly deluded about just how far the leaders will go to pursue their ends, and other times the followers may know what the leaders will try to do, but delude themselves into thinking that it's necessary. For instance, one reads that suicide bombers (generally young people) are deluded into believing all sorts of lies in order to get them to accept the "necessity" of the innocent lives that are lost through their actions. It's believable to me that as a young person, Snape could have been so deceived and only really realize the truth of what was going on when it became personal -- when LV targeted people (or a person) he cared about.
Die Zimtzicke - May 5, 2006 5:11 am (#2059 of 2969)
Plus we know that many Pureblood families thought Voldemort was right, until it went too far. Snape's father could have been one of them. Was he still alive at the time? What kind of family pressure or peer pressure was at play? Could Snape have been in a position where, if he didn't tell Voldemorrt SOMETHING important he was going to be killed like Regulus?
And we know he didn't tell the whole prophecy. Where did he stop and why? Good people make bad decisions at times. Average people are certainly capable of making horrific decisions.
wynnleaf - May 5, 2006 6:13 am (#2060 of 2969)
Die Zimtzicke,
Sorry, I don't think I follow. Snape's father was a muggle.
Also, DD said that Snape only heard half of the prophecy because Alberforth caught him listening at the door before he'd heard the whole thing.
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Soul Search - May 5, 2006 7:33 am (#2061 of 2969)
Edited May 5, 2006 8:49 am
I like speculation about the Snape/prophecy/Voldemort theme: it is, no doubt, important for book seven, yet we know very little from canon; just the high points. To help bound the speculation, I was reviewing what we know, or can deduce. Check me out on this:
Snape was into the Dark Arts
But not something he could really practice at Hogwarts.
Snape was around nineteen.
So, he had just left Hogwarts. Young, dissatisfied with his lot in life. Trying to find his place and maybe to impress the world.
Snape was a Death Eater
Did he walk up to Voldemort and say "I want to join," or was he recruited? I think one has to be recruited to the Death Eater ranks; anyone tring to join would be suspect. Snape was probably recruited by Lucius Malfoy.
Voldemort tasked Snape with getting a job at Hogwarts, to spy on Dumbledore.
That's why Snape was at the Hogs Head, to apply for a position at Hogwarts. The DADA job was, no doubt, open. Why he thought Dumbledore would hire a nineteen-year-old is a mystery.
Snape was trying to eavesdrop on Dumbledore's interview with Trelawney
Probably Snape's nature to eavesdrop; he did the same with the Marauders. Anyway, he didn't expect to hear anything important to Voldemort.
Snape got caught and thrown out.
He only heard part of the prophecy. He may not of even known there was more. He also knew that Trelawney made the prophecy. He didn't get his interview with Dumbledore, so he failed the task Voldemort assigned him. He needed to report the prophecy, or suffer Voldemort's rath.
The consequences of telling the prophecy were not obvious then.
Neither Harry nor Neville had been born yet. Nor, likely, had the Potters or Longbottoms "defied Voldemort three times." THE Prophecy isn't exactly clear, and prophecy's aren't always taken as gospel, anyway.
Snape becomes disaffected with Voldemort.
This has to be here, but there is no direct canon for it. Snape had to have a strong reason to go to Dumbledore and turn spy.
Time passes and the Potters, Harry, and Longbottoms, Neville, fit the prophecy.
At least a year passes before Harry fits the prophecy.
Voldemort targets Harry.
At some point, Voldemort figures out that Harry fits the prophecy and starts going after the Potters and him. Since they had defied him three times, he was already after the Potters, so the only change was that Harry was specifically included. Not sure why Snape would suffer great remorse about this.
Snape goes to Dumbledore and turns spy.
We learn this, and the timing, from Dumbledore. Snape's reason was remorse for telling Voldemort about the prophecy and that it turned out that the Potters were the eventual target. Crap. There was more to it.
Godric's Hollow
Voldemort goes to Godric's Hollow, kills James, offers Lily her life, she gets killed anyway, tries to AK Harry, Boy who Lived, etc. Lots of details to speculate about here.
Someone rats out Snape as a Death Eater.
Note that some DE had to have told the ministry that Snape was a Death eater. Who? Dumbledore vouches for Snape, Snape is exonerated, but the wizarding world learns he was a spy.
Karkaroff Trial
He tries to rat on Snape, but Dumbledore mentions Snape's previous trial.
I think that is all we know, or can confidently deduce. Any more? How can we fit our speculations into this evidence?
Magic Words - May 5, 2006 7:36 am (#2062 of 2969)
I'm reminded of a psychological study I've heard, where someone is given a hypothetical choice of sacrificing one person in order to save 100 others from certain death. Abstractly, you'd do it, right? Better to be responsible for one death than 100. But then the question is changed so that, in order to save the 100 people, you have to kill that one person yourself- push him or her off an overcrowded lifeboat to keep it from sinking, for instance. Would you push someone off a lifeboat? That's a much harder question. Snape's scenario is different (no saving 100 innocent people here), but the principle remains that it is much harder to kill someone you've made a personal connection with. It's more real. I can see where someone like Snape would be able to kill Muggles, for instance- they're inferior, they get in the way of the Dark Lord's plans, and when you get right down to it they don't matter because they don't have names and faces, to him. But when it comes to the Potters, they definitely matter. He knows them pretty well. And as much as he disliked James, he may have been unable to convince himself that both James and Lily deserved to die. Of course, the Muggles didn't deserve to die either, but Snape was never in a position where he was forced to ask himself that question, because they were only abstract.
Anna L. Black - May 5, 2006 7:53 am (#2063 of 2969)
Edited May 5, 2006 8:54 am
Wow, that's a great summary, Soul Search!
"Snape was into the Dark Arts
But not something he could really practice at Hogwarts."
Well, he did invent Sectumsempra, didn't he? Which makes me wonder - if it was invented during school (which it probably was, since it's written inside the Potions book), and Snape marked it as "For enemies" - whom did he use it on? Or did he practise only on flies? He recognized the effects immediately when he saw Malfoy, that must mean he has done it before...
"Someone rats out Snape as a Death Eater.
Note that some DE had to have told the ministry that Snape was a Death eater. Who? Dumbledore vouches for Snape, Snape is exonerated, but the wizarding world learns he was a spy."
I never understood that - if everybody in the Wizarding community could have known about Snape being a DE but a spy one, how come we never hear it mentioned again? Don't parents mind that a former DE teaches their children? Doesn't Voldemort mind that Snape was publicly announced as a spy for the 'good side'? I feel uneasy about that story, the ends don't tie up...
journeymom - May 5, 2006 8:12 am (#2064 of 2969)
Anna, I've wondered that myself. As far as Voldemort is concerned, the answer is with Snape's first meeting with him after the events of GoF. Snape had to account for being two hours late to Voldemort's calling. Dumbledore asked him if he was ready. Perhaps Voldemort dealt with Snape very harshly for having been outed as a DE and working for Dumbledore for 14 years. We don't know. I'd love to know. But Voldemort believes Snape is 'his man', his spy.
As far as Snape the former DE being a teacher, I have always thought that was a little weak. We're supposed to figure that since Snape had his trial and was exonerated and Dumbledore trusts him, the wizarding community at large trusts him enough to let him teach at Hogwarts. Perhaps it was Lucius Malfoy's support, being on the Board of Governors. But I don't think JKR will ever really clarify that particular detail. So I've always just let it slide. I take it on faith that that's just how she wants it to be.
Although it's also further evidence of Snape's petty childishness. Dd hired a former DE to work at Hogwarts, giving him a second chance. Then Snape outs Lupin for being a Werewolf and Lupin has to resign.
Gina R Snape - May 5, 2006 8:23 am (#2065 of 2969)
I think it's possible that some of the details from the trial were never made public. Equally, people easily forget some things. Those who did not know Snape, only knew him tangentially, or those who were too young to be there the first go round would not have this on their mind. Sirius Black did not know Snape was ever a DE. It's possible quite a few other people never knew either.
wynnleaf - May 5, 2006 8:31 am (#2066 of 2969)
Soul Search, excellent summation of the points and some questions. Some points regarding your summary and the comments of others following.
- Snape was a DE by age 19, but he could have been one for a couple of years. We don't know. We don't know what he did while a DE. We don't know if he killed anyone during that time. So we really don't know what sorts of heinous actions that he was associated with or what he had to justify to himself -- only the passing along of the partial prophecy.
-- Snape turned to DD after passing along the prophecy to LV, after LV decided to target the Potters, but well before the Potter's deaths. We know this by DD's evidence at the Wizengamot and also because Snape is almost certainly the spy that brings word that the Potters should go into hiding and later that there may be a traitor in the ranks.
-- We don't know for sure that anyone "outed" Snape as a spy or that he ever went to trial. It is also possible that DD, concerned that Snape would eventually be outed and arrested, forstalled those events by going directly to Crouch or other authorities and giving evidence about Snape's activities. If that were the case, Snape's work as a spy could have been kept relatively secret until Karkarov's statement at his trial. Even then, DD's comment was probably not entered as regular evidence in Karkarov's trial and it could be that only those actually at the trial would have heard what DD said.
-- regarding Snape's use of Dark Magic at school, he did appear to use the sectumsempra curse on James in the pensieve scene. He used it in a much more controlled form than Harry does, giving James only a cut on the cheek.
journeymom - May 5, 2006 8:47 am (#2067 of 2969)
"-- We don't know for sure that anyone "outed" Snape as a spy or that he ever went to trial. "
That's absolutely right. I've got it into my head that Snape had some sort of trial, but JKR never said he did. Dumbledore backed Snape but not necessarily in a trial venue.
Ann - May 5, 2006 8:51 am (#2068 of 2969)
Edited May 5, 2006 9:56 am
Firstly, Snape may not have thought that thwarting the prophecy meant killing babies--after all, killing the parents would have the same effect. Snape may not have liked the Longbottoms much (see the way he treats Neville), and I wouldn't be surprised if he knew they'd defied Voldemort three times. I'd be fairly sure that Voldemort was counting, and he does tend to rave at his Death Eaters. I think he'd rail against those who defied him a lot--perhaps the Longbottoms more than the Potters, since they're Aurors and may have been viewed as more dangerous.
But when it comes to a child, as JKR (through Dumbledore) makes quite clear, Voldemort sees the half-blood child (his own image) as being the more dangerous. Any truly careful seriously evil overlord would go after both, but Voldemort seems to have made a choice, and only gone after the Potters. JKR makes this very clear, and it's obviously necessary to her theme of choices.
I would agree with those who say that Snape probably didn't realize the effects of the power games he was involved in for Voldemort (for example passing along the prophecy) until he realized that the victims would be someone he knew. This is not an unusual reaction. All sorts of perfectly good people have been put in situations where they had to kill other perfectly good people for what they were told was a "good cause." (Think two armies of draftees fighting one another.) And they've done it, usually by dehumanizing and demonizing the enemy. But when the enemy turns into someone you know and that you know is human and isn't a demon, it's much, much harder, and tends to make it difficult even to kill the others that you don't know, if you have any imagination at all. An intelligent and imaginative person like Snape would immediately extend his feelings about the Potters to other people's feelings about other DE victims. And go to Dumbledore. Dumbledore says that telling the prophecy to Voldemort is Snape's greatest regret--and Dumbledore doesn't lie to Harry (PS/SS: "I will not, of course, lie.") There may be (almost certainly is) more to it than that, but Snape won't have gone to Dumbledore for some completely unrelated reason, I'm sure.
haymoni - May 5, 2006 8:53 am (#2069 of 2969)
All they'd have to do is pull up his sleeve to know that he was once a Death Eater. Shouldn't have been too hard.
I figured he came to Dumbledore, confessed whatever he needed to get off his chest, Dumbledore believes him to be repentant so he vouches for Severus.
I could actually see Dumbledore insisting on some sort of "trial" to clear Snape's name.
Die Zimtzicke - May 5, 2006 3:41 pm (#2070 of 2969)
My humblest apologies for my earlier typo about Snape's father. I certainly meant to say Snape's mother. I thought perhaps his father was already gone, and she was backing away from Snape's muggle heritage to protect him in such trying times. By being the best follower he could appear to be, he may have thought he was safer, and so was his mother.
Again, I'm sorry.
winlia - May 5, 2006 10:07 pm (#2071 of 2969)
As a child, I remember hearing my Father, who died 20 years ago, and would be about 90 were he alive, say that leniency should be applied to the misdeeds (crimes?) of people under 21.
Needless to say, I wonder, far more than I wonder about the much-anticipated contents of book 7, what in the world my Father did when he was a kid. And I know I'll never know. He was the kindest of men; still, from his tone of voice and the number of times he made the comment, I suspect that whatever it was, it was pretty spectacular.
Saracene - May 5, 2006 10:19 pm (#2072 of 2969)
Edited May 5, 2006 11:29 pm
I tend to think that after LV's fall Dumbledore would decide that it was better if Snape voluntarily revealed himself to be a DE who switched sides, rather than sit and wait until someone like Karkaroff points a finger at Snape and the Aurors drag him off to Azkaban. So I think that Snape got to have his own official hearing where Dumbledore vouched for him and he was cleared.
With the summary, I'd add another point of speculation and that is whether Snape was the person mentioned by Fudge in PoA who tipped off Dumbledore about danger to Potters. Timeline-wise, that would fit beautifully.
Puck - May 6, 2006 3:44 am (#2073 of 2969)
Where is it stated that he was only 19 when he apllied at Hogwarts and overheard the prophecy? I would think he was a DE at 19, but it was several years more before he went to DD. I mostly think this because;
Regulus died before the Potters. He was 18 or 19 at the time, and was a few years younger than the Sirius and company.
James and Lily didn't have Harry imediately after leaving Hogwarts. I'm guessing they, and Snape, were close to their mid twenties by then. (Definately past the age of 21, and no longer protect by the leniency of Winlia's father. )
Ann - May 6, 2006 5:03 am (#2074 of 2969)
Edited May 6, 2006 6:10 am
Regulus was born in 1961 and died in 1979, at 18. He was at most two years younger than Sirius, possibly only one. But the time of his death has nothing to do with Snape's age when he heard the Prophecy, which was also made in 1979.
Trelawney applied for a job at Hogwarts and gave the Prophecy at her job interview. This was in fall 1979, since in OotP (on September 9, 1995 according to the Lexicon), she says she's been teaching for "nearly sixteen years." (Harry was conceived around Halloween 1979 and born in July 1980.)
Snape's year of birth was either 1959 or 1960, which makes him 19 or 20 at the time he heard the Prophecy, which was also the date at which he first applied for a job at Hogwarts. Dumbledore didn't actually employ him as a teacher until two years later, in 1981.
He was, at the time the Prophecy was made, a loyal Death Eater. He turned back to Dumbledore when he learned that Voldemort interpreted the Prophecy as requiring the deaths of Lily and James. It seems pretty clear to me from what Dumbledore says in HBP that it was Snape who warned him. We don't know when this turning occurred--presumably before Harry's christening in August 1980, since JKR says that they only had a small ceremony with one godparent since they would be going into hiding right away. This would mean that by his 21st year (and possibly by his 20th) Snape was firmly on Dumbledore's side--where he remains, I'm sure.
Soul Search - May 6, 2006 5:22 am (#2075 of 2969)
Edited May 6, 2006 6:33 am
The Snape/prophecy/Voldemort theme, updates and comments.
The timing of Snape becoming a death eater might be interesting. We know from Sirius' comments in OotP that many supported Voldemort, until they discovered his true nature. I think Snape's joining was before Voldemort showed his true nature. Snape becoming a death eater then should not be interpreted the same as someone joining the "after GoF" Voldemort. He may of joined just to further his dark arts education, or some such. Indeed, discovering Voldemort's true nature could very well be the cause of his disaffection with Voldemort.
wynnleaf,
You are right, of course, Snape could have been a death eater earlier than nineteen. Point is, though, that he was quite young. Not an excuse, but still a mitigating factor.
"... Snape is almost certainly the spy that brings word that the Potters should go into hiding and later that there may be a traitor in the ranks."
Very good point. Dumbledore had other spys (he says: one of my spies) but Snape would be my top candidate. Shows that Snape was performing as a spy for Dumbledore, and being useful to him, at some risk to himself. Perhaps more importantly, Snape is looking out for the Potters. I think we might get some more details of this in the "Harry has to trust Snape" process. Lupin might know the details. Should probably add this tidbit to the summary.
wynnleaf, journeymom,
We don't know how Snape came to be tried, but I think there was a formal trial. In GoF, "The Pensieve," Crouch says: "Snape has been cleared by this council, ..." and Dumbledore says:"I have given evidence already in this matter ..." The wording suggests a formal proceeding. Dumbledore readily mentioning it at Karkaroff's proceeding suggests that it wasn't a secret.
I doubt Dumbledore would volunteer that Snape was a spy, so deduced that someone had ratted on him, just like Karkaroff tried to. Mostly means that his double role had worked rather well. Question remains, however, who was the rat; I can't recall any additional traitor candidates in the death eater ranks.
Rather than a rat, could Snape have been discovered in some compromising situation? Say at Godric's Hollow?
Probably should change the wording in the summary.
Another, perhaps extraneous, datum: Snape must have taken over as potions master from Slughorn.
Ann,
I have wondered if Snape can somehow be tied to Regulus. The timing of Regulus' disaffection with Voldemort, and getting killed for it, seems to parallel Snape's turning to Dumbledore. It might just be that Regulus' example caused Snape to turn to Dumbledore, rather than try and run away and hide. Good choice, I would say.
Choices - May 6, 2006 9:43 am (#2076 of 2969)
I prefer to think that Snape had something more along the lines of a hearing than an actual trial.
Dobby Socks - May 6, 2006 12:02 pm (#2077 of 2969)
Soul Search: ”I have wondered if Snape can somehow be tied to Regulus. The timing of Regulus' disaffection with Voldemort, and getting killed for it, seems to parallel Snape's turning to Dumbledore. It might just be that Regulus' example caused Snape to turn to Dumbledore, rather than try and run away and hide. Good choice, I would say.”
The Severus-Regulus connection has been rolling around in the back of my head ever since someone brought it up here in the context of Sirius’ hatred for Snape (I could have sworn it was Solitare, but I can’t find the post now.) I haven’t given it very much thought. It’s more of a minor irritant. Still, that they were both in Slytherin, that they are close in age (not more than two years apart and very possibly one,) and the coinciding of Regulus’ death / the Prophecy / Snape’s turning away from Voldemort is curious. Unless I’m mistaken (and I’m not sure where the quote is,) Sirius never mentions anything about the two of them being friends nor does he associate them in any way. He throws out a group of Death Eaters that Snape had been involved with at Hogwarts and, to my recollection, those whose ages we know are all quite a bit older than Snape, which is certainly possible, but still odd given that kids that age usually tend to not stray more than a year or two in either direction to find peers to bond with. But, we’ve been told Severus was a loner, and “odd” is an adjective that would definitely fit him. Perhaps, as Sirius’ brother, Regulus was as popular in his own domain as Sirius was in his.
Anyway, I’m just brainstorming out loud here and rambling. Did Regulus’ death affect Severus? Or was there a change in Voldemort’s behavior that affected them both? I think the latter most probable. If Regulus and Severus were friends before R’s death, if Regulus is RAB, and if Severus also knew about the Horcrux, that would certainly open a whole new can of worms. I highly doubt this is the case, though. A lot of “ifs” at any rate.
I was going to go into another issue, but I’ll save it for later.
journeymom - May 6, 2006 12:31 pm (#2078 of 2969)
" If Regulus and Severus were friends before R’s death, if Regulus is RAB, and if Severus also knew about the Horcrux, that would certainly open a whole new can of worms. I highly doubt this is the case, though. "
Dobby Socks, why do you doubt it? This is exactly where my line of thinking was going. Regulus' death and a change in LV's behavior might be one and the same. Though this is rather complex and there wasn't a hint of this plot in the books.
Soul Search - May 6, 2006 1:12 pm (#2079 of 2969)
Edited May 6, 2006 2:29 pm
journeymom, "... there wasn't a hint of this plot in the books."
I think there are hints; just too vague to nail anything down.
Sirius talks about Regulus in OotP. Why even bring him up if he isn't going to have a role later.
The R.A.B note, when Dumbledore and Harry expected to acquire one of Voldemort's horcruxes. Sort of links them together rather well.
Horcruxes are dark arts; Snape was into the dark arts.
Ages are close; Regulus and Snape were at Hogwarts at the same time and both in Slytherin.
Both became DEs and would have been DEs at the same time.
Both became disaffected with Voldemort and left him, although in different ways.
Both tried to get back at Voldemort: Regulus (as R.A.B.) and attempting to destroy his (thought to be one and only) horcrux; Snape by turning spy for Voldemort's most hated enemy, Dumbledore.
Both knew Sirius (and James, Lupin, Lily.)
Dumbledore knew Voldemort had made (at least) one horcrux. Did Snape tell him, because Regulus came to Snape and asked the dark arts expert about them? Dumbledore then started his own research (Slughorn's memory,) and started to expect multiple horcruxes from the diary.
Are Regulus' and Snape's disaffection related to Voldemort's horcruxes?
Probably more. Any ideas?
TheSaint - May 6, 2006 3:57 pm (#2080 of 2969)
Wouldn't Voldemort and Snape have concocted a story, like Snape's defection and possibly sacrifice a few DE in order to get him positioned at Hogwarts to do the spying he was instructed to do? I think any revelation coming from Snape's outing as a spy, would have been expected by Voldemort.
Wasn't it also stated that when Snape came to Hogwarts at age 11, he knew more dark magic than the 7th years? Seems he would have to have come from a dark family that was allowing him to practice magic before he was officially taught.
wynnleaf - May 6, 2006 4:26 pm (#2081 of 2969)
Edited May 6, 2006 5:28 pm
I know this is probably going waaay out on a limb, but if Regulas was the person that put the note in with the fake locket horcrux, then he went in the cave. According to DD, it would take 2 people to get across the lake, get the locket, etc. I've read all sorts of speculation about how that occurred and who it could be, since the boat would know if more than one "of age" wizard was in the boat. Anyway, what if Regulas was not yet 17? Draco was serving LV prior to turning 17, so could Regulas have become a DE before age 17? Anyway, suppose he went after the locket before turning 17 and Snape was the 2nd wizard along for the ride.
This theory would mean that Severus and Regulas were likely friends, or at least united in an objective to leave LV's service and defeat him. It would mean that Severus decided to leave LV's service prior to Regulas' death, but that could certainly be a possibility.
Suppose Severus took the prophecy to LV, discovered the Potters were being targeted, and went to DD. He then became a spy. He learns that Regulas is also wanting to switch sides and Regulas has info about horcruxes with a plan to find the one in the cave. They both go.
The biggest problem here is that then Snape would likely have told DD about the expedition to get the ring horcrux and Regulas' subsequent death. So DD would know about the locket already having been taken.
On the other hand, I keep wondering if DD knew about the fake locket all along, and there was some other, or extra, purpose for going to the cave? Anyway, if Snape had already been to the cave, it would help explain why DD has a lot of excellent "guesses" about what's going on in the cave, but had obviously not been there before.
ema fewett - May 6, 2006 5:37 pm (#2082 of 2969)
I'm extremely sorry if this theory has already been posted on this thread but I was too eager about this idea and wasnt ready to read the 1 thousand posts previous to this.
What I was thinking was, I do know that JKR conformed that Dumbledore was dead. But could it have been possible for Snape and Dumbledore to use pollyjuice potion and transform into each other....so then it was really Snape who died and not DD? What do you think?
Puck - May 6, 2006 5:42 pm (#2083 of 2969)
Honestly, I don't think so. Snape could never have been that nice to Harry.
Dobby Socks - May 6, 2006 6:27 pm (#2084 of 2969)
Edited May 6, 2006 7:47 pm
Soul Search and journeymom,
Re: Regulus-Severus
The similarities do seem too much for it to be merely coincidence. (Unless it’s one of the infamous red herrings.) We haven’t heard a great deal about it, but we’ve certainly heard enough to extrapolate and start making connections.
Soul Search: “Dumbledore knew Voldemort had made (at least) one horcrux. Did Snape tell him, because Regulus came to Snape and asked the dark arts expert about them? Dumbledore then started his own research (Slughorn's memory,) and started to expect multiple horcruxes from the diary. “
Well, that makes me feel better and makes the whole “can of worms” disappear. For some reason I was thinking that Dumbledore hadn’t a hint about a Horcrux at all until the CoS diary. If Snape knew so early about the Horcrux(es) and didn’t disclose it to DD… well… that would probably settle the whole Snape debate right there. (Have I mentioned I’m overdue for rereads. Lol. If I can manage to pull myself away from the Lexicon it might happen.) This being the case though, why did it take Dumbledore so long to act on it? As much as I like DD, his unwillingness to act on a hunch until he’s sure really bothers me. And after only several lessons, Harry’s supposed to complete in one year what it took DD eons to prep for? Of course he’ll succeed given the narrative confines, but it still bothers me.
A question from the ill-equipped literature major (me): I’ve been looking at all the possible reasons for Snape’s break with Voldemort and all the theories regarding what exactly it was that won him DD’s trust. In the real world, there could very well be more than one reason for either or both of the above. Do you think it would stretch the story too thin, or subvert its integrity somehow if there were more than one reason? I’m starting to lean toward Lily-Severus because it appears to be the one that would wrap up all the loose ends most neatly (plus JKR has yet to shut down this or the “other person at Godric’s Hollow that night” theory). But at least several have merit. I really think that the fact that Snape has been loved (and the way JKR tied it to Voldemort in her answer on last summer's TLC interview) lends itself to the theme of motherly love (quite a lot of mother’s neglect vs. mother’s love issues in the series). Which might point to the Irma Pince theory, or something similar. I also think that wynnleaf’s comments about Dumbledore having been the one who loved Snape have a lot of validity.
Ah, wynnleaf. Just caught your post. I’ve been thinking along those same lines (and also thinking “Is this too much of a stretch?”) Dumbledore might have taken Harry to the cave for a practical field trip of sorts, or because he needed to set the scenario for his “death?” I'm not sure. -- After the first few reads through HBP I was certain he was dead, but now I’m starting to question it. In part because of the symmetry of the questions Snape asks Harry in his first potions lesson. We’ve seen Wolfsbane, a bezoar, but where is the Draught of Living Death? (Besides Harry’s successful brewing of it at the beginning of HBP.)
One more thought. I’ve always personally felt that the reasons for Snape’s hatred of Harry go beyond the memory of James and have more to do with Snape’s desire to be the one to engineer LV’s downfall. Thus, he despises the fact that a lesser wizard than himself is the one destined to do so. (Someone else has brought this up a few times… rambkowalczyk maybe?) I guess this may depend on how one understands the prophecy to work.
Saracene - May 6, 2006 6:47 pm (#2085 of 2969)
I'm quite sure, on my own part, that whatever reason there was for Snape's break with Voldemort is linked directly with what Dumbledore told Harry in HBP. And that if there's more to the story of his turn to the good side, it will simply expand on Dumbledore's words rather than introduce some other, additional reasons unrelated to the whole prophecy affair. Mostly because I simply can't see the need for another reason to be added in the mix if Snape's remorse over his role in the prophecy was really as great as Dumbledore says. It IMO would be powerful enough all by itself. Besides, the whole prophecy thing links Snape closer than ever with Harry - who we must not forget is the main hero of the story, not Snape.
Regarding Regulus... I don't think we can automatically assume that he was willing to switch sides. Just because he turned against Voldemort it doesn't mean that he wanted to align himself with the Order or give up his pureblood prejudice.
Choices - May 6, 2006 6:52 pm (#2086 of 2969)
Ema - "I do know that JKR conformed that Dumbledore was dead."
When did this happen - did I blink and miss something? To my knowledge that has not been confirmed. If, once again, I am a day late and a dollar short, please post the quote from JKR stating that Dumbledore is definitely dead.
Dobby Socks - May 6, 2006 7:28 pm (#2087 of 2969)
Saracene: I'm quite sure, on my own part, that whatever reason there was for Snape's break with Voldemort is linked directly with what Dumbledore told Harry in HBP. And that if there's more to the story of his turn to the good side, it will simply expand on Dumbledore's words rather than introduce some other, additional reasons unrelated to the whole prophecy affair.
Thanks for your input, Saracene. That’s why I’m thinking Severus-Lily works so well. Dumbledore obviously considered telling Harry the whole truth before they left for the cave, but decided against it. Severus-Lily would expand on his comments, but not nullify them. What DD said doesn’t work by itself to justify his trust in Snape to anyone (including the Order members present that night.) It can also explain the way Snape acts towards Harry. (And when I say Severus-Lily, I’m not necessarily implying a mutual romantic love, by the way, but most likely a friendship (Lily) & perhaps a possible obsession (Snape.))
I still can’t help being intrigued by all the other theoretical possibilities, though.
I know this is Harry’s story, but it seems more and more to be developing into Harry’s story with Severus Snape as the main antagonist.
As far as Regulus goes, I don't necessarily think he wanted to ally himself with the other side. I think he just wanted out.
journeymom - May 6, 2006 8:53 pm (#2088 of 2969)
"On the other hand, I keep wondering if DD knew about the fake locket all along, and there was some other, or extra, purpose for going to the cave?"
Yes, I wondered this too.
Soul Search - May 7, 2006 6:32 am (#2089 of 2969)
I have been suspicious of the cave scene since reading it for the first time, but dismissed most of my suspicions as Dumbledore being a superb wizard. Recent posts, however, have piqued my interest.
First thing Dumbledore does is extract a promise from Harry to blindly accept his orders and save himself. Not a bad precaution, Dumbledore knowing Harry's tendecy towards heroics and all, but maybe a bit overdone. Sounded to me like Dumbledore knew what was coming.
Yes, Dumbledore is a great wizard, but everything seemed too pat. Dumbledore had to have, at least, been in the cave before. I don't think he knew the locket was a fake, but I do think he had at least got to the island before. He just knew too much about the whole setup.
Dumbledore gave the impression to Harry that he had just discovered the general location of the cave. All he had to do was ask Mrs. Cole, or someone else at the orphanage, where they took the kids on outings.
I can't dismiss the idea that Dumbledore found the cave, explored it to the point of finding the island, then realized he would need a young wizard to complete the mission. Then he decided to take Harry along next time. Good training for Harry's horcrux hunt.
Choices - May 7, 2006 9:32 am (#2090 of 2969)
Soul Search - "I can't dismiss the idea that Dumbledore found the cave, explored it to the point of finding the island, then realized he would need a young wizard to complete the mission. Then he decided to take Harry along next time. Good training for Harry's horcrux hunt."
That is a definite possibility. I like that idea.
Solitaire - May 7, 2006 11:08 am (#2091 of 2969)
Die Zimtzicke: we know that many Pureblood families thought Voldemort was right, until it went too far.
How far would "too far" have been? Killing one person? Two? Twenty? An entire family? Or was "too far" only too far when the killing touched one's own family?
Regarding the Polyjuice theory ... Surely Harry and Dumbledore were gone more than an hour. Dumbledore would have had to drink the Polyjuice every hour, I believe, to have continued looking like Snape. I do not have my book handy, but I do not remember reading of Dumbledore carrying any flask and drinking from it.
Rats! I have to run! I hate missing the Snape thread for a few days. It is murder to catch up!
Solitaire
winlia - May 7, 2006 11:18 am (#2092 of 2969)
Puck They said on last week's episode of "The Sopranos" that 26 is the new 21. I don't think my Father would approve of the progression.
wynnleaf - May 7, 2006 1:09 pm (#2093 of 2969)
Edited May 7, 2006 2:10 pm
Nobody really tried to shoot down my theory (hesitate to call it that), that maybe Regulas went to the cave before he was "of age" accompanied by Severus. As a reminder, DD said two people were needed, but the boat or lake or whatever would register the fact if more than one "of age" wizard crossed the lake.
What would be the reasons for why it wouldn't or couldn't have been Snape? In some ways, he seems the most logical possibility since he was a DE at the same time as Regulas, was deciding to turn away from LV about the same time, and knew plenty of Dark Arts with which to help in figuring out how the magic in the cave worked.
Dobby Socks - May 7, 2006 2:54 pm (#2094 of 2969)
Edited May 7, 2006 4:22 pm
wynnleaf,
The main flaw I see is that Regulus has to be underage. If he was born in 1961, that would mean the scenario took place in 1977. Since he died in 1979, that would leave at least a little over a year between his going to the cave with Snape and his death. Sirius gave the impression he didn’t live long after he defected from the DEs . But that could be incorrect. It’s possible he could have been in hiding. It would also put his joining the DEs and his becoming disaffected most likely quite close together, depending on how young Voldemort actually recruits. Which I could see happening.
It would also mean that Snape was working against Voldemort in ’77. The prophecy didn’t take place until 1979 or perhaps 1980. So unless he was already working for Dumbledore when he delivered the half-prophecy to LV, which is not impossible, but fairly unpalatable, that would make Snape’s involvement questionable at such an early date. And also give the “did he hear the whole prophecy, but only deliver half” theory more credibility.
The timeline of events is the main problem I see. However, how reliable is the timeline? We know Regulus was definitely born in 1961 and died in 1979 (along with his father) since it’s on the Black Family Tapestry. Unless what was sold at auction is an early version and might contain errors. Or just contain errors period. Some dates on it seem unlikely. I’m not sure the timeline we have is necessarily very solid anyway. Or that JKR kept track of her story that way.
So, Regulus having to be underage is the biggest problem I see. It doesn't fit well with Snape's timeline. Yet I’ve been able to undercut my entire argument.
Also, Dumbledore’s statement that being of age would be the thing that would make a person’s magic register has never sat well with me. Perhaps what he meant (but didn’t say) was that his powers are so great that anyone’s added to his own wouldn’t tip the boat. Or not. It’s JKR’s world.
Choices - May 7, 2006 4:06 pm (#2095 of 2969)
Dobby Socks - ".....but the boat or lake or whatever would register the fact if more than one "of age" wizard crossed the lake."
Dumbledore - "Voldemort will not have cared about the weight, but about the amount of magical power that crossed his lake."
Dumbledore - "I do not think you will count, Harry. You are underage and unqualified. Voldemort would never have expected a sixteen-year-old to reach this place. I think it unlikely that your powers will registered compared to mine."
Dobby Socks - May 7, 2006 7:04 pm (#2096 of 2969)
Choices,
The first quote is wynnleaf’s, not mine.
The first Dumbledore quotation supports what I’m saying (“Voldemort will not have cared about the weight, but about the amount of magical power that crossed his lake.") As for the second, I had forgotten about that last sentence. He did state that directly. Thanks for pointing it out. ("I do not think you will count, Harry. You are underage and unqualified. Voldemort would never have expected a sixteen-year-old to reach this place. I think it unlikely that your powers will registered [sic] compared to mine.")
As for the first part of that second quote, I just find it hard to believe. I suppose I’m overestimating Voldemort’s intelligence.
1.) If the boat is tallying the power of the magic it contains to determine the number of wizards aboard, why not take into account the magical powers of an underage wizard? Certainly, Harry’s are far lesser than Dumbledore’s. Yet, this would seem to be a big omission on Voldemort’s part, especially given what he has to lose. He isn’t expecting a 16-year-old to be able to reach the cave, although he himself probably would have been able to at 16 (and did at under 11, although the cave didn’t yet have any magical protections to guard it). I guess that points out the extent of his hubris.
2.) Being one of the most powerful wizards around, if not the most powerful, wouldn’t Dumbledore’s magical “weight” exceed that of many (or most) “of age” wizard pairs? Would it, in fact, exceed that of a young Severus and a young Regulus?
Obviously, Voldemort doesn’t want two wizards in the boat because of the vastly increased chance at successfully obtaining the Horcrux (by drinking the potion.) So he’s created or charmed something that doesn’t take into account the powers of an underaged wizard? How would it even calculate the wizard’s age? What about the powers of a House Elf (Kreacher, for instance)? Wouldn’t it have been simpler (and more reliable) to count the number of bodies in the boat?
I’m just nitpicking, though. Like I said, it’s JKR’s creation. And I am certainly grateful she gave it to us. If, however, a further plot point could rest on this mistake of Voldemort's, then I think it's worth looking into.
Out of curiosity, Choices, can you find any flaws in wynnleaf’s theory, or can I deduce that because you decided to criticize my aside instead, you can’t find a flaw? Or that you agree with the possible flaw I found? Or that you’re waiting for something worthier to discuss?
If you'd all take care not to misquote me, I'll try not to make any more factual errors that you have to waste time correcting.
Thanks, Camille
journeymom - May 7, 2006 7:39 pm (#2097 of 2969)
" I guess that points out the extent of his hubris. "
Hubris, yes, and the fact that LV sometimes underestimates his opponents. I believe Dd said that. Actually, LV said that in the cemetery scene.
I like the Regulus-Severus theory. I'd come to that conclusion myself but was hesitant to say anything because I thought the dates didn't add up. I thought Severus was 19-ish when he turned, thus, of age. But Dd says it isn't the age necessarily but the magical abilities.
Supposing Severus and Regulus made it across the lake how would they take the real locket out and put a fake in? Dd and Harry were unable to touch the surface of the potion until Dd conjured a crystal goblet.
It is also possible that Kreacher, rather than Snape, went with Regulus.
Solitaire - May 7, 2006 9:32 pm (#2098 of 2969)
Edited May 7, 2006 10:33 pm
“did he hear the whole prophecy, but only deliver half” theory
I thought Dumbledore said that the eavesdropper was detected halfway into the prophecy and tossed out. Wouldn't this mean he only heard half the prophecy?
BTW, I like the idea of Kreacher going on an adventure.
Solitaire
TheSaint - May 7, 2006 10:29 pm (#2099 of 2969)
The idea of Severus would answer the question of how the potion was replaced, had Regulus had to drink it in the first place. Also why Dumbledore would trust him,had Snape been the one to tell him about them in the first place. It does not, however, answer why DD would go after a horcrux that has already been obtained.
Puck - May 8, 2006 5:04 am (#2100 of 2969)
Edited May 8, 2006 6:16 am
Saint, that is one of my problems with the theory. DD knew Draco was up to something. It bothers me to think he would leave to fetch a Horcrux he knew wasn't there, putting his students in danger to do so. I believe if Snape had helped remove the locket, he would have told DD. Plus, if Regulus was ill from drinking potion, Snape would have taken the locket and made sure it was destroyed. Kreacher, however, I could see bringing it home to add to the treasures of his mistress.
I have noticed that many of the DE underestimate those they consider "beneath" them. It is not surprising, therefore, that LV would do so in regard to the boat.
Wondering how much Snape must love having Wormtail on a tight leash, after all that Pettigrew and company put him through during school.
Edited May 5, 2006 8:49 am
I like speculation about the Snape/prophecy/Voldemort theme: it is, no doubt, important for book seven, yet we know very little from canon; just the high points. To help bound the speculation, I was reviewing what we know, or can deduce. Check me out on this:
Snape was into the Dark Arts
But not something he could really practice at Hogwarts.
Snape was around nineteen.
So, he had just left Hogwarts. Young, dissatisfied with his lot in life. Trying to find his place and maybe to impress the world.
Snape was a Death Eater
Did he walk up to Voldemort and say "I want to join," or was he recruited? I think one has to be recruited to the Death Eater ranks; anyone tring to join would be suspect. Snape was probably recruited by Lucius Malfoy.
Voldemort tasked Snape with getting a job at Hogwarts, to spy on Dumbledore.
That's why Snape was at the Hogs Head, to apply for a position at Hogwarts. The DADA job was, no doubt, open. Why he thought Dumbledore would hire a nineteen-year-old is a mystery.
Snape was trying to eavesdrop on Dumbledore's interview with Trelawney
Probably Snape's nature to eavesdrop; he did the same with the Marauders. Anyway, he didn't expect to hear anything important to Voldemort.
Snape got caught and thrown out.
He only heard part of the prophecy. He may not of even known there was more. He also knew that Trelawney made the prophecy. He didn't get his interview with Dumbledore, so he failed the task Voldemort assigned him. He needed to report the prophecy, or suffer Voldemort's rath.
The consequences of telling the prophecy were not obvious then.
Neither Harry nor Neville had been born yet. Nor, likely, had the Potters or Longbottoms "defied Voldemort three times." THE Prophecy isn't exactly clear, and prophecy's aren't always taken as gospel, anyway.
Snape becomes disaffected with Voldemort.
This has to be here, but there is no direct canon for it. Snape had to have a strong reason to go to Dumbledore and turn spy.
Time passes and the Potters, Harry, and Longbottoms, Neville, fit the prophecy.
At least a year passes before Harry fits the prophecy.
Voldemort targets Harry.
At some point, Voldemort figures out that Harry fits the prophecy and starts going after the Potters and him. Since they had defied him three times, he was already after the Potters, so the only change was that Harry was specifically included. Not sure why Snape would suffer great remorse about this.
Snape goes to Dumbledore and turns spy.
We learn this, and the timing, from Dumbledore. Snape's reason was remorse for telling Voldemort about the prophecy and that it turned out that the Potters were the eventual target. Crap. There was more to it.
Godric's Hollow
Voldemort goes to Godric's Hollow, kills James, offers Lily her life, she gets killed anyway, tries to AK Harry, Boy who Lived, etc. Lots of details to speculate about here.
Someone rats out Snape as a Death Eater.
Note that some DE had to have told the ministry that Snape was a Death eater. Who? Dumbledore vouches for Snape, Snape is exonerated, but the wizarding world learns he was a spy.
Karkaroff Trial
He tries to rat on Snape, but Dumbledore mentions Snape's previous trial.
I think that is all we know, or can confidently deduce. Any more? How can we fit our speculations into this evidence?
Magic Words - May 5, 2006 7:36 am (#2062 of 2969)
I'm reminded of a psychological study I've heard, where someone is given a hypothetical choice of sacrificing one person in order to save 100 others from certain death. Abstractly, you'd do it, right? Better to be responsible for one death than 100. But then the question is changed so that, in order to save the 100 people, you have to kill that one person yourself- push him or her off an overcrowded lifeboat to keep it from sinking, for instance. Would you push someone off a lifeboat? That's a much harder question. Snape's scenario is different (no saving 100 innocent people here), but the principle remains that it is much harder to kill someone you've made a personal connection with. It's more real. I can see where someone like Snape would be able to kill Muggles, for instance- they're inferior, they get in the way of the Dark Lord's plans, and when you get right down to it they don't matter because they don't have names and faces, to him. But when it comes to the Potters, they definitely matter. He knows them pretty well. And as much as he disliked James, he may have been unable to convince himself that both James and Lily deserved to die. Of course, the Muggles didn't deserve to die either, but Snape was never in a position where he was forced to ask himself that question, because they were only abstract.
Anna L. Black - May 5, 2006 7:53 am (#2063 of 2969)
Edited May 5, 2006 8:54 am
Wow, that's a great summary, Soul Search!
"Snape was into the Dark Arts
But not something he could really practice at Hogwarts."
Well, he did invent Sectumsempra, didn't he? Which makes me wonder - if it was invented during school (which it probably was, since it's written inside the Potions book), and Snape marked it as "For enemies" - whom did he use it on? Or did he practise only on flies? He recognized the effects immediately when he saw Malfoy, that must mean he has done it before...
"Someone rats out Snape as a Death Eater.
Note that some DE had to have told the ministry that Snape was a Death eater. Who? Dumbledore vouches for Snape, Snape is exonerated, but the wizarding world learns he was a spy."
I never understood that - if everybody in the Wizarding community could have known about Snape being a DE but a spy one, how come we never hear it mentioned again? Don't parents mind that a former DE teaches their children? Doesn't Voldemort mind that Snape was publicly announced as a spy for the 'good side'? I feel uneasy about that story, the ends don't tie up...
journeymom - May 5, 2006 8:12 am (#2064 of 2969)
Anna, I've wondered that myself. As far as Voldemort is concerned, the answer is with Snape's first meeting with him after the events of GoF. Snape had to account for being two hours late to Voldemort's calling. Dumbledore asked him if he was ready. Perhaps Voldemort dealt with Snape very harshly for having been outed as a DE and working for Dumbledore for 14 years. We don't know. I'd love to know. But Voldemort believes Snape is 'his man', his spy.
As far as Snape the former DE being a teacher, I have always thought that was a little weak. We're supposed to figure that since Snape had his trial and was exonerated and Dumbledore trusts him, the wizarding community at large trusts him enough to let him teach at Hogwarts. Perhaps it was Lucius Malfoy's support, being on the Board of Governors. But I don't think JKR will ever really clarify that particular detail. So I've always just let it slide. I take it on faith that that's just how she wants it to be.
Although it's also further evidence of Snape's petty childishness. Dd hired a former DE to work at Hogwarts, giving him a second chance. Then Snape outs Lupin for being a Werewolf and Lupin has to resign.
Gina R Snape - May 5, 2006 8:23 am (#2065 of 2969)
I think it's possible that some of the details from the trial were never made public. Equally, people easily forget some things. Those who did not know Snape, only knew him tangentially, or those who were too young to be there the first go round would not have this on their mind. Sirius Black did not know Snape was ever a DE. It's possible quite a few other people never knew either.
wynnleaf - May 5, 2006 8:31 am (#2066 of 2969)
Soul Search, excellent summation of the points and some questions. Some points regarding your summary and the comments of others following.
- Snape was a DE by age 19, but he could have been one for a couple of years. We don't know. We don't know what he did while a DE. We don't know if he killed anyone during that time. So we really don't know what sorts of heinous actions that he was associated with or what he had to justify to himself -- only the passing along of the partial prophecy.
-- Snape turned to DD after passing along the prophecy to LV, after LV decided to target the Potters, but well before the Potter's deaths. We know this by DD's evidence at the Wizengamot and also because Snape is almost certainly the spy that brings word that the Potters should go into hiding and later that there may be a traitor in the ranks.
-- We don't know for sure that anyone "outed" Snape as a spy or that he ever went to trial. It is also possible that DD, concerned that Snape would eventually be outed and arrested, forstalled those events by going directly to Crouch or other authorities and giving evidence about Snape's activities. If that were the case, Snape's work as a spy could have been kept relatively secret until Karkarov's statement at his trial. Even then, DD's comment was probably not entered as regular evidence in Karkarov's trial and it could be that only those actually at the trial would have heard what DD said.
-- regarding Snape's use of Dark Magic at school, he did appear to use the sectumsempra curse on James in the pensieve scene. He used it in a much more controlled form than Harry does, giving James only a cut on the cheek.
journeymom - May 5, 2006 8:47 am (#2067 of 2969)
"-- We don't know for sure that anyone "outed" Snape as a spy or that he ever went to trial. "
That's absolutely right. I've got it into my head that Snape had some sort of trial, but JKR never said he did. Dumbledore backed Snape but not necessarily in a trial venue.
Ann - May 5, 2006 8:51 am (#2068 of 2969)
Edited May 5, 2006 9:56 am
Firstly, Snape may not have thought that thwarting the prophecy meant killing babies--after all, killing the parents would have the same effect. Snape may not have liked the Longbottoms much (see the way he treats Neville), and I wouldn't be surprised if he knew they'd defied Voldemort three times. I'd be fairly sure that Voldemort was counting, and he does tend to rave at his Death Eaters. I think he'd rail against those who defied him a lot--perhaps the Longbottoms more than the Potters, since they're Aurors and may have been viewed as more dangerous.
But when it comes to a child, as JKR (through Dumbledore) makes quite clear, Voldemort sees the half-blood child (his own image) as being the more dangerous. Any truly careful seriously evil overlord would go after both, but Voldemort seems to have made a choice, and only gone after the Potters. JKR makes this very clear, and it's obviously necessary to her theme of choices.
I would agree with those who say that Snape probably didn't realize the effects of the power games he was involved in for Voldemort (for example passing along the prophecy) until he realized that the victims would be someone he knew. This is not an unusual reaction. All sorts of perfectly good people have been put in situations where they had to kill other perfectly good people for what they were told was a "good cause." (Think two armies of draftees fighting one another.) And they've done it, usually by dehumanizing and demonizing the enemy. But when the enemy turns into someone you know and that you know is human and isn't a demon, it's much, much harder, and tends to make it difficult even to kill the others that you don't know, if you have any imagination at all. An intelligent and imaginative person like Snape would immediately extend his feelings about the Potters to other people's feelings about other DE victims. And go to Dumbledore. Dumbledore says that telling the prophecy to Voldemort is Snape's greatest regret--and Dumbledore doesn't lie to Harry (PS/SS: "I will not, of course, lie.") There may be (almost certainly is) more to it than that, but Snape won't have gone to Dumbledore for some completely unrelated reason, I'm sure.
haymoni - May 5, 2006 8:53 am (#2069 of 2969)
All they'd have to do is pull up his sleeve to know that he was once a Death Eater. Shouldn't have been too hard.
I figured he came to Dumbledore, confessed whatever he needed to get off his chest, Dumbledore believes him to be repentant so he vouches for Severus.
I could actually see Dumbledore insisting on some sort of "trial" to clear Snape's name.
Die Zimtzicke - May 5, 2006 3:41 pm (#2070 of 2969)
My humblest apologies for my earlier typo about Snape's father. I certainly meant to say Snape's mother. I thought perhaps his father was already gone, and she was backing away from Snape's muggle heritage to protect him in such trying times. By being the best follower he could appear to be, he may have thought he was safer, and so was his mother.
Again, I'm sorry.
winlia - May 5, 2006 10:07 pm (#2071 of 2969)
As a child, I remember hearing my Father, who died 20 years ago, and would be about 90 were he alive, say that leniency should be applied to the misdeeds (crimes?) of people under 21.
Needless to say, I wonder, far more than I wonder about the much-anticipated contents of book 7, what in the world my Father did when he was a kid. And I know I'll never know. He was the kindest of men; still, from his tone of voice and the number of times he made the comment, I suspect that whatever it was, it was pretty spectacular.
Saracene - May 5, 2006 10:19 pm (#2072 of 2969)
Edited May 5, 2006 11:29 pm
I tend to think that after LV's fall Dumbledore would decide that it was better if Snape voluntarily revealed himself to be a DE who switched sides, rather than sit and wait until someone like Karkaroff points a finger at Snape and the Aurors drag him off to Azkaban. So I think that Snape got to have his own official hearing where Dumbledore vouched for him and he was cleared.
With the summary, I'd add another point of speculation and that is whether Snape was the person mentioned by Fudge in PoA who tipped off Dumbledore about danger to Potters. Timeline-wise, that would fit beautifully.
Puck - May 6, 2006 3:44 am (#2073 of 2969)
Where is it stated that he was only 19 when he apllied at Hogwarts and overheard the prophecy? I would think he was a DE at 19, but it was several years more before he went to DD. I mostly think this because;
Regulus died before the Potters. He was 18 or 19 at the time, and was a few years younger than the Sirius and company.
James and Lily didn't have Harry imediately after leaving Hogwarts. I'm guessing they, and Snape, were close to their mid twenties by then. (Definately past the age of 21, and no longer protect by the leniency of Winlia's father. )
Ann - May 6, 2006 5:03 am (#2074 of 2969)
Edited May 6, 2006 6:10 am
Regulus was born in 1961 and died in 1979, at 18. He was at most two years younger than Sirius, possibly only one. But the time of his death has nothing to do with Snape's age when he heard the Prophecy, which was also made in 1979.
Trelawney applied for a job at Hogwarts and gave the Prophecy at her job interview. This was in fall 1979, since in OotP (on September 9, 1995 according to the Lexicon), she says she's been teaching for "nearly sixteen years." (Harry was conceived around Halloween 1979 and born in July 1980.)
Snape's year of birth was either 1959 or 1960, which makes him 19 or 20 at the time he heard the Prophecy, which was also the date at which he first applied for a job at Hogwarts. Dumbledore didn't actually employ him as a teacher until two years later, in 1981.
He was, at the time the Prophecy was made, a loyal Death Eater. He turned back to Dumbledore when he learned that Voldemort interpreted the Prophecy as requiring the deaths of Lily and James. It seems pretty clear to me from what Dumbledore says in HBP that it was Snape who warned him. We don't know when this turning occurred--presumably before Harry's christening in August 1980, since JKR says that they only had a small ceremony with one godparent since they would be going into hiding right away. This would mean that by his 21st year (and possibly by his 20th) Snape was firmly on Dumbledore's side--where he remains, I'm sure.
Soul Search - May 6, 2006 5:22 am (#2075 of 2969)
Edited May 6, 2006 6:33 am
The Snape/prophecy/Voldemort theme, updates and comments.
The timing of Snape becoming a death eater might be interesting. We know from Sirius' comments in OotP that many supported Voldemort, until they discovered his true nature. I think Snape's joining was before Voldemort showed his true nature. Snape becoming a death eater then should not be interpreted the same as someone joining the "after GoF" Voldemort. He may of joined just to further his dark arts education, or some such. Indeed, discovering Voldemort's true nature could very well be the cause of his disaffection with Voldemort.
wynnleaf,
You are right, of course, Snape could have been a death eater earlier than nineteen. Point is, though, that he was quite young. Not an excuse, but still a mitigating factor.
"... Snape is almost certainly the spy that brings word that the Potters should go into hiding and later that there may be a traitor in the ranks."
Very good point. Dumbledore had other spys (he says: one of my spies) but Snape would be my top candidate. Shows that Snape was performing as a spy for Dumbledore, and being useful to him, at some risk to himself. Perhaps more importantly, Snape is looking out for the Potters. I think we might get some more details of this in the "Harry has to trust Snape" process. Lupin might know the details. Should probably add this tidbit to the summary.
wynnleaf, journeymom,
We don't know how Snape came to be tried, but I think there was a formal trial. In GoF, "The Pensieve," Crouch says: "Snape has been cleared by this council, ..." and Dumbledore says:"I have given evidence already in this matter ..." The wording suggests a formal proceeding. Dumbledore readily mentioning it at Karkaroff's proceeding suggests that it wasn't a secret.
I doubt Dumbledore would volunteer that Snape was a spy, so deduced that someone had ratted on him, just like Karkaroff tried to. Mostly means that his double role had worked rather well. Question remains, however, who was the rat; I can't recall any additional traitor candidates in the death eater ranks.
Rather than a rat, could Snape have been discovered in some compromising situation? Say at Godric's Hollow?
Probably should change the wording in the summary.
Another, perhaps extraneous, datum: Snape must have taken over as potions master from Slughorn.
Ann,
I have wondered if Snape can somehow be tied to Regulus. The timing of Regulus' disaffection with Voldemort, and getting killed for it, seems to parallel Snape's turning to Dumbledore. It might just be that Regulus' example caused Snape to turn to Dumbledore, rather than try and run away and hide. Good choice, I would say.
Choices - May 6, 2006 9:43 am (#2076 of 2969)
I prefer to think that Snape had something more along the lines of a hearing than an actual trial.
Dobby Socks - May 6, 2006 12:02 pm (#2077 of 2969)
Soul Search: ”I have wondered if Snape can somehow be tied to Regulus. The timing of Regulus' disaffection with Voldemort, and getting killed for it, seems to parallel Snape's turning to Dumbledore. It might just be that Regulus' example caused Snape to turn to Dumbledore, rather than try and run away and hide. Good choice, I would say.”
The Severus-Regulus connection has been rolling around in the back of my head ever since someone brought it up here in the context of Sirius’ hatred for Snape (I could have sworn it was Solitare, but I can’t find the post now.) I haven’t given it very much thought. It’s more of a minor irritant. Still, that they were both in Slytherin, that they are close in age (not more than two years apart and very possibly one,) and the coinciding of Regulus’ death / the Prophecy / Snape’s turning away from Voldemort is curious. Unless I’m mistaken (and I’m not sure where the quote is,) Sirius never mentions anything about the two of them being friends nor does he associate them in any way. He throws out a group of Death Eaters that Snape had been involved with at Hogwarts and, to my recollection, those whose ages we know are all quite a bit older than Snape, which is certainly possible, but still odd given that kids that age usually tend to not stray more than a year or two in either direction to find peers to bond with. But, we’ve been told Severus was a loner, and “odd” is an adjective that would definitely fit him. Perhaps, as Sirius’ brother, Regulus was as popular in his own domain as Sirius was in his.
Anyway, I’m just brainstorming out loud here and rambling. Did Regulus’ death affect Severus? Or was there a change in Voldemort’s behavior that affected them both? I think the latter most probable. If Regulus and Severus were friends before R’s death, if Regulus is RAB, and if Severus also knew about the Horcrux, that would certainly open a whole new can of worms. I highly doubt this is the case, though. A lot of “ifs” at any rate.
I was going to go into another issue, but I’ll save it for later.
journeymom - May 6, 2006 12:31 pm (#2078 of 2969)
" If Regulus and Severus were friends before R’s death, if Regulus is RAB, and if Severus also knew about the Horcrux, that would certainly open a whole new can of worms. I highly doubt this is the case, though. "
Dobby Socks, why do you doubt it? This is exactly where my line of thinking was going. Regulus' death and a change in LV's behavior might be one and the same. Though this is rather complex and there wasn't a hint of this plot in the books.
Soul Search - May 6, 2006 1:12 pm (#2079 of 2969)
Edited May 6, 2006 2:29 pm
journeymom, "... there wasn't a hint of this plot in the books."
I think there are hints; just too vague to nail anything down.
Sirius talks about Regulus in OotP. Why even bring him up if he isn't going to have a role later.
The R.A.B note, when Dumbledore and Harry expected to acquire one of Voldemort's horcruxes. Sort of links them together rather well.
Horcruxes are dark arts; Snape was into the dark arts.
Ages are close; Regulus and Snape were at Hogwarts at the same time and both in Slytherin.
Both became DEs and would have been DEs at the same time.
Both became disaffected with Voldemort and left him, although in different ways.
Both tried to get back at Voldemort: Regulus (as R.A.B.) and attempting to destroy his (thought to be one and only) horcrux; Snape by turning spy for Voldemort's most hated enemy, Dumbledore.
Both knew Sirius (and James, Lupin, Lily.)
Dumbledore knew Voldemort had made (at least) one horcrux. Did Snape tell him, because Regulus came to Snape and asked the dark arts expert about them? Dumbledore then started his own research (Slughorn's memory,) and started to expect multiple horcruxes from the diary.
Are Regulus' and Snape's disaffection related to Voldemort's horcruxes?
Probably more. Any ideas?
TheSaint - May 6, 2006 3:57 pm (#2080 of 2969)
Wouldn't Voldemort and Snape have concocted a story, like Snape's defection and possibly sacrifice a few DE in order to get him positioned at Hogwarts to do the spying he was instructed to do? I think any revelation coming from Snape's outing as a spy, would have been expected by Voldemort.
Wasn't it also stated that when Snape came to Hogwarts at age 11, he knew more dark magic than the 7th years? Seems he would have to have come from a dark family that was allowing him to practice magic before he was officially taught.
wynnleaf - May 6, 2006 4:26 pm (#2081 of 2969)
Edited May 6, 2006 5:28 pm
I know this is probably going waaay out on a limb, but if Regulas was the person that put the note in with the fake locket horcrux, then he went in the cave. According to DD, it would take 2 people to get across the lake, get the locket, etc. I've read all sorts of speculation about how that occurred and who it could be, since the boat would know if more than one "of age" wizard was in the boat. Anyway, what if Regulas was not yet 17? Draco was serving LV prior to turning 17, so could Regulas have become a DE before age 17? Anyway, suppose he went after the locket before turning 17 and Snape was the 2nd wizard along for the ride.
This theory would mean that Severus and Regulas were likely friends, or at least united in an objective to leave LV's service and defeat him. It would mean that Severus decided to leave LV's service prior to Regulas' death, but that could certainly be a possibility.
Suppose Severus took the prophecy to LV, discovered the Potters were being targeted, and went to DD. He then became a spy. He learns that Regulas is also wanting to switch sides and Regulas has info about horcruxes with a plan to find the one in the cave. They both go.
The biggest problem here is that then Snape would likely have told DD about the expedition to get the ring horcrux and Regulas' subsequent death. So DD would know about the locket already having been taken.
On the other hand, I keep wondering if DD knew about the fake locket all along, and there was some other, or extra, purpose for going to the cave? Anyway, if Snape had already been to the cave, it would help explain why DD has a lot of excellent "guesses" about what's going on in the cave, but had obviously not been there before.
ema fewett - May 6, 2006 5:37 pm (#2082 of 2969)
I'm extremely sorry if this theory has already been posted on this thread but I was too eager about this idea and wasnt ready to read the 1 thousand posts previous to this.
What I was thinking was, I do know that JKR conformed that Dumbledore was dead. But could it have been possible for Snape and Dumbledore to use pollyjuice potion and transform into each other....so then it was really Snape who died and not DD? What do you think?
Puck - May 6, 2006 5:42 pm (#2083 of 2969)
Honestly, I don't think so. Snape could never have been that nice to Harry.
Dobby Socks - May 6, 2006 6:27 pm (#2084 of 2969)
Edited May 6, 2006 7:47 pm
Soul Search and journeymom,
Re: Regulus-Severus
The similarities do seem too much for it to be merely coincidence. (Unless it’s one of the infamous red herrings.) We haven’t heard a great deal about it, but we’ve certainly heard enough to extrapolate and start making connections.
Soul Search: “Dumbledore knew Voldemort had made (at least) one horcrux. Did Snape tell him, because Regulus came to Snape and asked the dark arts expert about them? Dumbledore then started his own research (Slughorn's memory,) and started to expect multiple horcruxes from the diary. “
Well, that makes me feel better and makes the whole “can of worms” disappear. For some reason I was thinking that Dumbledore hadn’t a hint about a Horcrux at all until the CoS diary. If Snape knew so early about the Horcrux(es) and didn’t disclose it to DD… well… that would probably settle the whole Snape debate right there. (Have I mentioned I’m overdue for rereads. Lol. If I can manage to pull myself away from the Lexicon it might happen.) This being the case though, why did it take Dumbledore so long to act on it? As much as I like DD, his unwillingness to act on a hunch until he’s sure really bothers me. And after only several lessons, Harry’s supposed to complete in one year what it took DD eons to prep for? Of course he’ll succeed given the narrative confines, but it still bothers me.
A question from the ill-equipped literature major (me): I’ve been looking at all the possible reasons for Snape’s break with Voldemort and all the theories regarding what exactly it was that won him DD’s trust. In the real world, there could very well be more than one reason for either or both of the above. Do you think it would stretch the story too thin, or subvert its integrity somehow if there were more than one reason? I’m starting to lean toward Lily-Severus because it appears to be the one that would wrap up all the loose ends most neatly (plus JKR has yet to shut down this or the “other person at Godric’s Hollow that night” theory). But at least several have merit. I really think that the fact that Snape has been loved (and the way JKR tied it to Voldemort in her answer on last summer's TLC interview) lends itself to the theme of motherly love (quite a lot of mother’s neglect vs. mother’s love issues in the series). Which might point to the Irma Pince theory, or something similar. I also think that wynnleaf’s comments about Dumbledore having been the one who loved Snape have a lot of validity.
Ah, wynnleaf. Just caught your post. I’ve been thinking along those same lines (and also thinking “Is this too much of a stretch?”) Dumbledore might have taken Harry to the cave for a practical field trip of sorts, or because he needed to set the scenario for his “death?” I'm not sure. -- After the first few reads through HBP I was certain he was dead, but now I’m starting to question it. In part because of the symmetry of the questions Snape asks Harry in his first potions lesson. We’ve seen Wolfsbane, a bezoar, but where is the Draught of Living Death? (Besides Harry’s successful brewing of it at the beginning of HBP.)
One more thought. I’ve always personally felt that the reasons for Snape’s hatred of Harry go beyond the memory of James and have more to do with Snape’s desire to be the one to engineer LV’s downfall. Thus, he despises the fact that a lesser wizard than himself is the one destined to do so. (Someone else has brought this up a few times… rambkowalczyk maybe?) I guess this may depend on how one understands the prophecy to work.
Saracene - May 6, 2006 6:47 pm (#2085 of 2969)
I'm quite sure, on my own part, that whatever reason there was for Snape's break with Voldemort is linked directly with what Dumbledore told Harry in HBP. And that if there's more to the story of his turn to the good side, it will simply expand on Dumbledore's words rather than introduce some other, additional reasons unrelated to the whole prophecy affair. Mostly because I simply can't see the need for another reason to be added in the mix if Snape's remorse over his role in the prophecy was really as great as Dumbledore says. It IMO would be powerful enough all by itself. Besides, the whole prophecy thing links Snape closer than ever with Harry - who we must not forget is the main hero of the story, not Snape.
Regarding Regulus... I don't think we can automatically assume that he was willing to switch sides. Just because he turned against Voldemort it doesn't mean that he wanted to align himself with the Order or give up his pureblood prejudice.
Choices - May 6, 2006 6:52 pm (#2086 of 2969)
Ema - "I do know that JKR conformed that Dumbledore was dead."
When did this happen - did I blink and miss something? To my knowledge that has not been confirmed. If, once again, I am a day late and a dollar short, please post the quote from JKR stating that Dumbledore is definitely dead.
Dobby Socks - May 6, 2006 7:28 pm (#2087 of 2969)
Saracene: I'm quite sure, on my own part, that whatever reason there was for Snape's break with Voldemort is linked directly with what Dumbledore told Harry in HBP. And that if there's more to the story of his turn to the good side, it will simply expand on Dumbledore's words rather than introduce some other, additional reasons unrelated to the whole prophecy affair.
Thanks for your input, Saracene. That’s why I’m thinking Severus-Lily works so well. Dumbledore obviously considered telling Harry the whole truth before they left for the cave, but decided against it. Severus-Lily would expand on his comments, but not nullify them. What DD said doesn’t work by itself to justify his trust in Snape to anyone (including the Order members present that night.) It can also explain the way Snape acts towards Harry. (And when I say Severus-Lily, I’m not necessarily implying a mutual romantic love, by the way, but most likely a friendship (Lily) & perhaps a possible obsession (Snape.))
I still can’t help being intrigued by all the other theoretical possibilities, though.
I know this is Harry’s story, but it seems more and more to be developing into Harry’s story with Severus Snape as the main antagonist.
As far as Regulus goes, I don't necessarily think he wanted to ally himself with the other side. I think he just wanted out.
journeymom - May 6, 2006 8:53 pm (#2088 of 2969)
"On the other hand, I keep wondering if DD knew about the fake locket all along, and there was some other, or extra, purpose for going to the cave?"
Yes, I wondered this too.
Soul Search - May 7, 2006 6:32 am (#2089 of 2969)
I have been suspicious of the cave scene since reading it for the first time, but dismissed most of my suspicions as Dumbledore being a superb wizard. Recent posts, however, have piqued my interest.
First thing Dumbledore does is extract a promise from Harry to blindly accept his orders and save himself. Not a bad precaution, Dumbledore knowing Harry's tendecy towards heroics and all, but maybe a bit overdone. Sounded to me like Dumbledore knew what was coming.
Yes, Dumbledore is a great wizard, but everything seemed too pat. Dumbledore had to have, at least, been in the cave before. I don't think he knew the locket was a fake, but I do think he had at least got to the island before. He just knew too much about the whole setup.
Dumbledore gave the impression to Harry that he had just discovered the general location of the cave. All he had to do was ask Mrs. Cole, or someone else at the orphanage, where they took the kids on outings.
I can't dismiss the idea that Dumbledore found the cave, explored it to the point of finding the island, then realized he would need a young wizard to complete the mission. Then he decided to take Harry along next time. Good training for Harry's horcrux hunt.
Choices - May 7, 2006 9:32 am (#2090 of 2969)
Soul Search - "I can't dismiss the idea that Dumbledore found the cave, explored it to the point of finding the island, then realized he would need a young wizard to complete the mission. Then he decided to take Harry along next time. Good training for Harry's horcrux hunt."
That is a definite possibility. I like that idea.
Solitaire - May 7, 2006 11:08 am (#2091 of 2969)
Die Zimtzicke: we know that many Pureblood families thought Voldemort was right, until it went too far.
How far would "too far" have been? Killing one person? Two? Twenty? An entire family? Or was "too far" only too far when the killing touched one's own family?
Regarding the Polyjuice theory ... Surely Harry and Dumbledore were gone more than an hour. Dumbledore would have had to drink the Polyjuice every hour, I believe, to have continued looking like Snape. I do not have my book handy, but I do not remember reading of Dumbledore carrying any flask and drinking from it.
Rats! I have to run! I hate missing the Snape thread for a few days. It is murder to catch up!
Solitaire
winlia - May 7, 2006 11:18 am (#2092 of 2969)
Puck They said on last week's episode of "The Sopranos" that 26 is the new 21. I don't think my Father would approve of the progression.
wynnleaf - May 7, 2006 1:09 pm (#2093 of 2969)
Edited May 7, 2006 2:10 pm
Nobody really tried to shoot down my theory (hesitate to call it that), that maybe Regulas went to the cave before he was "of age" accompanied by Severus. As a reminder, DD said two people were needed, but the boat or lake or whatever would register the fact if more than one "of age" wizard crossed the lake.
What would be the reasons for why it wouldn't or couldn't have been Snape? In some ways, he seems the most logical possibility since he was a DE at the same time as Regulas, was deciding to turn away from LV about the same time, and knew plenty of Dark Arts with which to help in figuring out how the magic in the cave worked.
Dobby Socks - May 7, 2006 2:54 pm (#2094 of 2969)
Edited May 7, 2006 4:22 pm
wynnleaf,
The main flaw I see is that Regulus has to be underage. If he was born in 1961, that would mean the scenario took place in 1977. Since he died in 1979, that would leave at least a little over a year between his going to the cave with Snape and his death. Sirius gave the impression he didn’t live long after he defected from the DEs . But that could be incorrect. It’s possible he could have been in hiding. It would also put his joining the DEs and his becoming disaffected most likely quite close together, depending on how young Voldemort actually recruits. Which I could see happening.
It would also mean that Snape was working against Voldemort in ’77. The prophecy didn’t take place until 1979 or perhaps 1980. So unless he was already working for Dumbledore when he delivered the half-prophecy to LV, which is not impossible, but fairly unpalatable, that would make Snape’s involvement questionable at such an early date. And also give the “did he hear the whole prophecy, but only deliver half” theory more credibility.
The timeline of events is the main problem I see. However, how reliable is the timeline? We know Regulus was definitely born in 1961 and died in 1979 (along with his father) since it’s on the Black Family Tapestry. Unless what was sold at auction is an early version and might contain errors. Or just contain errors period. Some dates on it seem unlikely. I’m not sure the timeline we have is necessarily very solid anyway. Or that JKR kept track of her story that way.
So, Regulus having to be underage is the biggest problem I see. It doesn't fit well with Snape's timeline. Yet I’ve been able to undercut my entire argument.
Also, Dumbledore’s statement that being of age would be the thing that would make a person’s magic register has never sat well with me. Perhaps what he meant (but didn’t say) was that his powers are so great that anyone’s added to his own wouldn’t tip the boat. Or not. It’s JKR’s world.
Choices - May 7, 2006 4:06 pm (#2095 of 2969)
Dobby Socks - ".....but the boat or lake or whatever would register the fact if more than one "of age" wizard crossed the lake."
Dumbledore - "Voldemort will not have cared about the weight, but about the amount of magical power that crossed his lake."
Dumbledore - "I do not think you will count, Harry. You are underage and unqualified. Voldemort would never have expected a sixteen-year-old to reach this place. I think it unlikely that your powers will registered compared to mine."
Dobby Socks - May 7, 2006 7:04 pm (#2096 of 2969)
Choices,
The first quote is wynnleaf’s, not mine.
The first Dumbledore quotation supports what I’m saying (“Voldemort will not have cared about the weight, but about the amount of magical power that crossed his lake.") As for the second, I had forgotten about that last sentence. He did state that directly. Thanks for pointing it out. ("I do not think you will count, Harry. You are underage and unqualified. Voldemort would never have expected a sixteen-year-old to reach this place. I think it unlikely that your powers will registered [sic] compared to mine.")
As for the first part of that second quote, I just find it hard to believe. I suppose I’m overestimating Voldemort’s intelligence.
1.) If the boat is tallying the power of the magic it contains to determine the number of wizards aboard, why not take into account the magical powers of an underage wizard? Certainly, Harry’s are far lesser than Dumbledore’s. Yet, this would seem to be a big omission on Voldemort’s part, especially given what he has to lose. He isn’t expecting a 16-year-old to be able to reach the cave, although he himself probably would have been able to at 16 (and did at under 11, although the cave didn’t yet have any magical protections to guard it). I guess that points out the extent of his hubris.
2.) Being one of the most powerful wizards around, if not the most powerful, wouldn’t Dumbledore’s magical “weight” exceed that of many (or most) “of age” wizard pairs? Would it, in fact, exceed that of a young Severus and a young Regulus?
Obviously, Voldemort doesn’t want two wizards in the boat because of the vastly increased chance at successfully obtaining the Horcrux (by drinking the potion.) So he’s created or charmed something that doesn’t take into account the powers of an underaged wizard? How would it even calculate the wizard’s age? What about the powers of a House Elf (Kreacher, for instance)? Wouldn’t it have been simpler (and more reliable) to count the number of bodies in the boat?
I’m just nitpicking, though. Like I said, it’s JKR’s creation. And I am certainly grateful she gave it to us. If, however, a further plot point could rest on this mistake of Voldemort's, then I think it's worth looking into.
Out of curiosity, Choices, can you find any flaws in wynnleaf’s theory, or can I deduce that because you decided to criticize my aside instead, you can’t find a flaw? Or that you agree with the possible flaw I found? Or that you’re waiting for something worthier to discuss?
If you'd all take care not to misquote me, I'll try not to make any more factual errors that you have to waste time correcting.
Thanks, Camille
journeymom - May 7, 2006 7:39 pm (#2097 of 2969)
" I guess that points out the extent of his hubris. "
Hubris, yes, and the fact that LV sometimes underestimates his opponents. I believe Dd said that. Actually, LV said that in the cemetery scene.
I like the Regulus-Severus theory. I'd come to that conclusion myself but was hesitant to say anything because I thought the dates didn't add up. I thought Severus was 19-ish when he turned, thus, of age. But Dd says it isn't the age necessarily but the magical abilities.
Supposing Severus and Regulus made it across the lake how would they take the real locket out and put a fake in? Dd and Harry were unable to touch the surface of the potion until Dd conjured a crystal goblet.
It is also possible that Kreacher, rather than Snape, went with Regulus.
Solitaire - May 7, 2006 9:32 pm (#2098 of 2969)
Edited May 7, 2006 10:33 pm
“did he hear the whole prophecy, but only deliver half” theory
I thought Dumbledore said that the eavesdropper was detected halfway into the prophecy and tossed out. Wouldn't this mean he only heard half the prophecy?
BTW, I like the idea of Kreacher going on an adventure.
Solitaire
TheSaint - May 7, 2006 10:29 pm (#2099 of 2969)
The idea of Severus would answer the question of how the potion was replaced, had Regulus had to drink it in the first place. Also why Dumbledore would trust him,had Snape been the one to tell him about them in the first place. It does not, however, answer why DD would go after a horcrux that has already been obtained.
Puck - May 8, 2006 5:04 am (#2100 of 2969)
Edited May 8, 2006 6:16 am
Saint, that is one of my problems with the theory. DD knew Draco was up to something. It bothers me to think he would leave to fetch a Horcrux he knew wasn't there, putting his students in danger to do so. I believe if Snape had helped remove the locket, he would have told DD. Plus, if Regulus was ill from drinking potion, Snape would have taken the locket and made sure it was destroyed. Kreacher, however, I could see bringing it home to add to the treasures of his mistress.
I have noticed that many of the DE underestimate those they consider "beneath" them. It is not surprising, therefore, that LV would do so in regard to the boat.
Wondering how much Snape must love having Wormtail on a tight leash, after all that Pettigrew and company put him through during school.
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Ann - May 8, 2006 7:03 am (#2101 of 2969)
Edited May 8, 2006 8:16 am
I don't think Regulus's note sounds like he was working with someone else. Apart from the fact that he says "I" throughout, and he signs only his own initials, he sounds like it's a personal thing between him and Voldemort. If Snape was involved, I think it would have sounded different, even if Snape had said (as he would have) don't mention me. So I think Regulus was alone or, more probably, with Kreacher, which he would probably have regarded as being alone, given the way that most purebloods regard house-elves. Who knows? Kreacher may have been involved in putting the Horcrux on the island in the first place. That might explain how Regulus managed to get it.
I don't think Dumbledore and Snape could have changed places using Polyjuice, and I don't think Dumbledore had been to the cave before. Aside from the fact that Snape would never have the patience to pretend to be Dumbledore for so long, Dumbledore told Harry he would not lie to him, and although he has clearly not told him everything, he also told Harry that he would not tell him everything (end of PS/SS). Sad though it is, Dumbledore's dead. And Snape's alive, which will, I'm sure, turn out to be a Very Good Thing.
I don't think Dumbledore realized the Horcrux was a fake--who would know if Regulus was acting alone or with Kreacher and then immediately was killed? I think the point of showing how brilliant Dumbledore is at getting past Voldemort's barriers is not to show how brilliant he is, but to illustrate how important it is to know Voldemort well in order to defeat him. Dumbledore can predict what sort of magic Voldemort will use because he knows him so well. And he's spent the year showing Harry Voldemort's life and background so that Harry will also know him well and be able to do this sort of thing, too. It explains Harry's "special lessons" on a practical level, aside from its literary value in giving the reader background. Note that Snape also knows Voldemort pretty well.
But although I don't see a connection between Snape and Regulus at the Cave, I think there probably was a connection. It was in fall 1979, I'm quite sure, that Snape heard the Prophecy (only half--Dumbledore never lies), and I think he turned away from Voldemort very quickly thereafter. Regulus was in his Hogwarts house and a few years younger, and may have known Snape well enough to see and then share his disgust at what Voldemort was willing to do. (Could Regulus also have liked Lily? JKR says she was "a very popular girl.") But he rebelled in a different way. Slughorn may have been especially fond of him (having failed to snag Sirius) and I would bet it was through Slughorn that Regulus learned about Voldemort's interest in Horcruxes. Slughorn clearly didn't confide that he might make multiple ones, though--the note implies only one. But though I don't think he told Snape about the Cave, Regulus may have mentioned early on in his research that Slughorn had had a conversation about Horcruxes with Voldemort. And Snape told Dumbledore. How else would Dumbledore have known to ask Slughorn for the memory of it?
(Sorry to natter on so!)
Dobby Socks - May 8, 2006 7:17 am (#2102 of 2969)
Edited May 8, 2006 8:22 am
Choices,
Sorry about jumping down your throat like that. I’ve been having a rough couple of weeks. (Muggle doctors and their “complementary” medicine… Grrrr. Didn't mean to take it out on you.)
Puck: “I have noticed that many of the DE underestimate those they consider "beneath" them. It is not surprising, therefore, that LV would do so in regard to the boat.” Quite true.
Solitare,
There’s been a theory floated that Snape turned to Dumbledore before the Prophecy occurred. From what Trelawney tells Harry in HBP, it appears that Snape was physically present when she came out of the trance. Could he have heard the entire thing? Could Dumbledore (and Aberforth, presuming he’s the one who threw Snape out of the Hog’s Head) have let this happen as part of the “grand plan” with the rationale that in a war it’s better to kill one person to save a hundred (to take out of context the psychological example that someone used a couple weeks ago)?
This has been shot down repeatedly since it seems to be completely out of character for Dumbledore, and because no one had ever survived an AK. The whole point would be for them (or Snape, if he was acting alone) to intentionally allow the creation of a person who would be able to effect Voldemort’s downfall. To do this they would have to 1.) Have faith in the prophecy 2.) Interpret the “marked him as an equal” phrase to mean the child would definitely survive a murder attempt by LV, and 3.) Be willing to sacrifice the parents if it came to that. On top of this, Lily would have to make the sacrifice she did.
I don’t buy it for the above reasons, plus Snape’s turnabout appears to have happened at least in part because of events that unfolded due to his passing the partial prophecy to Voldemort.
And it would involve outright lies on Dumbledore’s part, and some very dubious moral decisions.
At any rate, that’s the theory I was referring to.
Dobby Socks - May 8, 2006 7:34 am (#2103 of 2969)
"I think the point of showing how brilliant Dumbledore is at getting past Voldemort's barriers is not to show how brilliant he is, but to illustrate how important it is to know Voldemort well in order to defeat him. Dumbledore can predict what sort of magic Voldemort will use because he knows him so well. And he's spent the year showing Harry Voldemort's life and background so that Harry will also know him well and be able to do this sort of thing, too. It explains Harry's "special lessons" on a practical level, aside from its literary value in giving the reader background. Note that Snape also knows Voldemort pretty well.
Excellent points Ann. I agree that there's probably a connection between Regulus and Severus, but not likely the cave.
wynnleaf - May 8, 2006 8:11 am (#2104 of 2969)
Edited May 8, 2006 9:12 am
As I read the arguments, I agree that it seems like it's really pushing the timeline for Severus to have been with Regulas in the cave. On the other hand, I do wonder if Severus knew something about Regulas' visit to the cave, or at least that Regulas knew about at least one horcrux. As someone else mentioned, how did DD ever know there was a horcrux conversation between Slughorn and Riddle to be curious about it?
There's too many similarities in the circumstances of Severus and Regulas (close in age, both in Slytherin, both DE's, both wanting "out," both attempting to do something toward LV's defeat) to not think that Severus knew more about what Regulas was doing than we've yet been told.
Choices - May 8, 2006 8:28 am (#2105 of 2969)
Edited May 8, 2006 9:36 am
Dobby Socks - "Out of curiosity, Choices, can you find any flaws in wynnleaf’s theory, or can I deduce that because you decided to criticize my aside instead, you can’t find a flaw? Or that you agree with the possible flaw I found? Or that you’re waiting for something worthier to discuss?"
I think Dobby, if you go back and read my post #2095, you will see that I did not criticize anything - I simply quoted two sentences that were in the book. Not one word of the post was mine - it came straight from the book and was in no way a criticism of anything. It was merely to clarify what Dumbledore said.
Sorry that I was unclear as to who had said that - Wynnleaf and not you. As to Wynnleaf's theory - I am of the opinion that Severus was in no way connected to Regulus in finding the Horcrux.
Soul Search - May 8, 2006 8:42 am (#2106 of 2969)
The whole process of Regulus (R.A.B.) retrieving the locket from the cave gets way too complicated. How did he find it? Know it was a locket and to bring a replacement(with note)? Know he would probably die? Who to take to help, but not alert the boat? etc?
A while back, on the R.A.B topic, I proposed that Voldemort sent R.A.B. to put the locket in the cave. This makes even more sense after recent discussion.
The idea is sort of like the pirate captain taking some of his crew to bury some treasure. Only the captain returns.
Well, Voldemort wants to hide the locket horcrux and has already prepared the cave, but doesn't want to go there himself. Maybe he has prepared a trap so well that even he couldn't escape it. He sends R.A.B. He has prepared things so that R.A.B won't return.
But, R.A.B figures things out, perhaps with help from Snape, and puts in the fake locket. He may or may not have made it out of the cave. He might, in fact, be the inferi that Harry aroused with his "accio" spell.
This might also fit with Snape's disaffection from Voldemort.
Okay, have at it.
wynnleaf - May 8, 2006 10:13 am (#2107 of 2969)
Edited May 8, 2006 11:15 am
Soul Search,
I like your ideas.
How about this as a possibility to go along with yours? Suppose Severus knew that Regulas was going to the cave, as per LV's orders. He knows Regulas wants LV brought down and is planning to steal the locket and leave something else there instead. Regulas knows Snape is like-minded to him, so he tells Snape about LV's orders regarding the horcrux and the cave. But Severus doesn't go along. Regulas dies following his trip to the cave -- he may have actually gotten out of the cave, or perhaps Kreacher was along, but somehow the locket got back to #12 Grimmauld. Regulas died before he could fill Snape in on exactly what had occurred. Severus knew Regulas was going and knew the locket was to be there, but never knew exactly what was the result other than that Regulas had died. So later, he told DD all about it, but neither Severus or DD know for sure whether or not Regulas had been able to leave the real, or a fake, locket horcrux in the cave. So when DD went to the cave, he knew a great deal of what to expect. LV had given Regulas fairly explicit instructions and Regulas had told Severus all about it prior to his journey to the cave. So Severus could have told DD all that Regulas told him. But, DD wouldn't know for sure which locket horcrux was in the cave -- the real or the fake.
When he took the locket out, he'd have already known that it could be the real horcrux, or could be the one Regulas had planned to leave behind. So even if DD had read the note, it wouldn't have concerned him too much. He'd have known who RAB was, and he'd have realized that RAB must have taken the real horcrux with him.
haymoni - May 8, 2006 10:17 am (#2108 of 2969)
Sounds as good as anything else we've come up with!!!
rambkowalczyk - May 8, 2006 11:18 am (#2109 of 2969)
I read a fan fict story about Regulus and Snape working together. The gist was that Regulus knew the horcrux was in the lake and Snape had replaced the potion surrounding the horcrux with a slow acting poison so that if Voldemort were to retrieve the horcrux he would die. Now back to reality
In OOP, it says that when Harry is looking at the tapestry he notes that Regulus died some 15 years earlier. Since Harry just turned 15, it means that Regulus died in 1980. Where are people getting 1979? If it comes from the Black tapestry auction, then I wonder if we might have to conclude that when Regulus died isn't all that important. If it was important JKR would have these facts agreeing.
Dumbledore says 4 years ago he "received certain proof that Voldemort had split his soul" Prior to this he had no proof that Voldemort made horcruxes. So it is possible that Snape may have made mention of them but could provide no proof. I can't therefore believe that Snape had any knowledge of the cave from Regulus.
whatever reason there was for Snape's break with Voldemort is linked directly with what Dumbledore told Harry in HBP. And that if there's more to the story of his turn to the good side, it will simply expand on Dumbledore's words rather than introduce some other, additional reasons unrelated to the whole prophecy affair. Saracene
agreed.
I’m starting to lean toward Lily-Severus because it appears to be the one that would wrap up all the loose ends most neatly... Dobby Socks
Dumbledore obviously considered telling Harry the whole truth before they left for the cave, but decided against it. Severus-Lily would expand on his comments, but not nullify them. Dobby Socks
Dumbledore must have promised Snape that he would never reveal to Harry that Snape had some affection for Lily.
I’ve always personally felt that the reasons for Snape's hatred of Harry go beyond the memory of James and have more to do with Snape’s desire to be the one to engineer LV’s downfall. Thus, he despises the fact that a lesser wizard than himself is the one destined to do so. (Someone else has brought this up a few times… rambkowalczyk maybe?) Dobby Socks
Recently I brought up the idea of sibling rivalry between Snape and Harry for Dumbledore's attention on respect. I stated it in terms of Snape seeking respect and looking for it from either Voldemort or Dumbledore, and that now that Harry is occupying Dumbledore's time, Snape is feeling unappreciated and therefore could be tempted to go back to Voldemort.
Dobby Sock's idea does give Snape another reason to be jealous of Harry and definately hate him but in this case he can't go back to Voldemort. It means if Snape wants Voldemort to be defeated he has to keep Harry alive.
it seems more and more to be developing into Harry’s story with Severus Snape as the main antagonist. Dobby Socks
agreed! In fact it seems as though there might be two climaxes: Harry and Voldemort,, Harry and Snape.
journeymom - May 8, 2006 11:57 am (#2110 of 2969)
Edited May 8, 2006 12:57 pm
"Where are people getting 1979? If it comes from the Black tapestry auction, then I wonder if we might have to conclude that when Regulus died isn't all that important. If it was important JKR would have these facts agreeing. "
Yes, it comes from the tapestry.
mike miller - May 8, 2006 12:02 pm (#2111 of 2969)
I seriously doubt Voldemort shared the information that he had created even one horcrux with anyone. Voldemort did not even tell Lucius what he truely had in the Diary; and, Malfoy seems to have been part of Voldemort's inner circle from the beginning.
I doubt that Dumbledore shared the information that Voldemort had create even one horcrux with anyone but Harry.
I doubt that Regulus would have shared with Severus that he wanted out of the Death Eater's. Severus appears, and may well be, one of Voldemort's strongest supporters and the last person Regulus would tell. I doubt Severus knows about the horcruxes even at this stage of the story.
I think it was simply a matter of Regulus wanting out and knowing he would need something to "hold over Voldemort's head" if he wanted to stay alive. Through stealth he followed Voldemort, learned of the existence of the locket horcrux and brought Kreacher to assist him in get it. His actions somehow betrayed his intentions and he was killed.
Soul Search - May 8, 2006 1:23 pm (#2112 of 2969)
wynnleaf, Your scenario fits all our speculation. Well done.
rambkowalczyk, the idea that Snape became disaffected with Voldemort over some action related to Regulus and went to Dumbledore relating "remorse" over telling Voldemort the prophecy are not incompatible. Both could very well be true and it makes more sense that both are true.
mike miller, Voldemort certainly wouldn't want anyone to know about horcruxes, especially the plural. If someone did find out, he would probably be sent on some mission that had no return. Like putting the locket in the cave.
Magic Words - May 8, 2006 1:41 pm (#2113 of 2969)
What if RAB was given the locket to put in the cave, but not told what it was? Voldemort could have just said it was a weapon that they would need later on, like he told Lucius Malfoy the diary was enchanted to open the Chamber of Secrets. Later on, RAB could have gathered more clues and figured out the locket was a Horcrux, but he would already know how to get past the barriers.
Solitaire - May 8, 2006 6:18 pm (#2114 of 2969)
If Snape was indeed present throughout the entire prophecy--with Dumbledore's permission--then perhaps we should be looking for a different eavesdropper. I find it hard to believe Dumbledore would mention that someone heard half the prophecy and was then detected and thrown out if it were not true. Why make up such a silly lie?
Solitaire
Steve Newton - May 9, 2006 5:00 am (#2115 of 2969)
It seems to me that Aberforth was around to hear the prophecy.
wynnleaf - May 9, 2006 5:20 am (#2116 of 2969)
As to whether Regulas would have gone to Severus --- he might not have had to. Severus was the spy. He was supposed to be (one assumes) observing not only LV, but the other DE's. He could have become suspicious that Regulas was wanting out. Regulas was after all quite young and perhaps not the greatest actor. Anyway, it could have been Snape approaching Regulas and eventually winning his trust that he (Snape) could help in opposing LV.
In this scenario, it would not have been DD revealing the existence of horcruxes to Snape. He wouldn't have had to, as Snape would have already known through Regulas. As someone else said, where in the world did DD ever learn that Slughorn had ever had a horcrux conversation with LV??? Somebody had to tell DD, and I think we can assume it wasn't Slughorn.
On Snape hearing the prophecy...I really think JKR was pretty clear through DD's comments and his explanation of Trelawney's comments that it was Snape who heard the prophecy, but only a partial prophecy.
Solitaire - May 9, 2006 5:58 am (#2117 of 2969)
Edited May 9, 2006 7:03 am
Yes, Aberforth was there. But I somehow feel he was not the eavesdropper. Just a hunch ... but I suppose any further comments about Abe need to be on his own thread.
Solitaire
journeymom - May 9, 2006 11:52 am (#2118 of 2969)
" As someone else said, where in the world did DD ever learn that Slughorn had ever had a horcrux conversation with LV???"
There's a scenario that possibly explains it.
Knowledge of horcruxes seems to be very confidential. There was only one vague reference to them in the Hogwarts library. If there are only a few people in wizarding Britain who would know what they are and how to make them, perhaps Dd was able to deduce from whom Tom Riddle got his information from .
Just a thought.
haymoni - May 9, 2006 1:03 pm (#2119 of 2969)
How do we know that there is only 1 vague reference to them?
Hermione went looking for it - I'm guessing she had gotten special permission to be in the Restricted Section, but how would she know where to look?
Apparently there isn't a card catalogue system at Hogwarts, because they had such a hard time finding out about Flamel.
I can't picture Hermione asking Madame Pince about Horcruxes anymore than her asking about Nicholas Flamel.
Gina R Snape - May 9, 2006 4:55 pm (#2120 of 2969)
Edited May 9, 2006 6:13 pm
Horcruxes were outlawed from being discussed at the school. There's a good chance Pince went and removed any references to them. Seeing as how it is the darkest of dark magic, chances are there wasn't a whole lot at the school on it to begin with.
As for the rest of the library, I have always wondered why there was no card catalogue! Not only could they not find Flamel, they had problems finding gillyweed as well.
I don't think Snape was with Regulus Black regarding the locket. It just doesn't make sense to me, when we see what DD went through, that Snape would know about the fake locket. I do wonder about that potion, though.
I can see Snape and Regulus having interactions in the past, though. And I have always suspected Snape and Avery may be talking, that Avery may be working from the inside.
haymoni - May 9, 2006 5:48 pm (#2121 of 2969)
Gina - I asked you in the chat thread - anything on the Snape Trial yet?
Magic Words - May 9, 2006 6:15 pm (#2122 of 2969)
Why Avery, Gina? I don't recall reading much more about him than his name.
winlia - May 9, 2006 7:03 pm (#2123 of 2969)
Edited May 9, 2006 8:05 pm
You all have me rereading the end of HBP in order to keep up with the thread, and I just noticed how odd DD and Harry's conversation is before they leave for the cave. Harry is (understandably) worked up about Snape and the prophecy, and he tells DD that Malfoy has just succeeded in fixing something in the Room or Requirement, and that DD is leaving just when something is likely to happen. DD cuts him off pretty abruptly and tells him that extra protection is in place and that he does not wish to discuss it any further.
Makes me wonder just what DD knew about Malfoy and his plans, and whether he anticipated his own death. We know from the tower scene that DD didn't know about the vanishing cabinet specifically, but doesn't it say somewhere that DD knew that Malfoy was planning on killing him?
DD specifically mentions how dangerous the trip to the cave would be. Given that and Malfoy's plotting, one has to wonder why DD didn't give Harry more direction about how to carry on and whom to trust should he, DD, not survive. Even if DD didn't want to elaborate on the circumstances of Snape's return because he had promised Snape that he wouldn't discuss his relationship with Lily, I would think that he would stress more strongly his trust of Snape and the necessity for Harry to cultivate the same.
Catherine - May 10, 2006 5:45 am (#2124 of 2969)
As for the rest of the library, I have always wondered why there was no card catalogue! --Gina
So have I. I remember shaking my head when Snape had Harry copy over the punishment cards in detention, wondering, "But where is the card catalogue?"
Gina, I have also harbored the same suspicion about Avery.
Gina R Snape - May 10, 2006 5:52 am (#2125 of 2969)
Edited May 10, 2006 6:53 am
haymoni, what is it you want to know about the Snape trial? I have not heard any word from the Accio people about follow up regarding the conference.
Avery has been seen in a few places a few times, but remains curiously unnoticed nonetheless. Harry witnessed him being punished for something by Voldemort. We also know he's been working for the Ministry. And we do not have confirmation that he was at the Ministry when the DEs lured Harry there to get the prophesy.
haymoni - May 10, 2006 6:53 am (#2126 of 2969)
Oh, I just thought they may have released the transcript. Some lawyer types around work had wanted to read it and I hadn't asked lately.
I re-read "Spinners End" last night. There was one paragraph that made me think that Snape knew about the plan. I can't quote it now - no books, but it was right after he pulls Narcissa up and looks right into her face. It is possible that he could have just gotten the info from her at that point, but he says something right after that made me think that he knew Draco had to kill Dumbledore.
I also wondered about the twitch during the Vow. We saw Voldy's hand twitch when he cursed the DADA job. Is it possible that Snape cast some sort of spell to protect himself from the Vow?
wynnleaf - May 10, 2006 7:33 am (#2127 of 2969)
Edited May 10, 2006 8:33 am
I also wondered about the twitch during the Vow. We saw Voldy's hand twitch when he cursed the DADA job. Is it possible that Snape cast some sort of spell to protect himself from the Vow?
That's an interesting observation. Maybe there's not a spell that could just jump in and be protection in an Unbreakable Vow, but perhaps there was something else magical that he was doing?
What I keep remembering is that this is supposedly the first half of one big book. And then I remember how in GOF we learned in one of the last chapters how all those little apparently trivial details had been linked together into explaining what was really going on. So who knows? The twitch was definitely something. Maybe just a revealing of emotion, but maybe something magical.
Ann - May 10, 2006 11:40 am (#2128 of 2969)
Edited May 10, 2006 12:41 pm
Snape twitches a lot, actually. I'm still wondering about his twitch in GoF when Harry says that Malfoy senior was at Voldie's re-birthing party. (That makes two twitches caused by Malfoys, doesn't it?) And I think there are other significant twitches, though I can't think of them at the moment. Another summer project to put off doing real work, perhaps, unless someone has already gone through the books and collected twitches?
Catherine - May 10, 2006 1:17 pm (#2129 of 2969)
Well, now I will have to go back and rethink Snape and twitches.
That could prove interesting, especially given his teachings about non-verbal spells.
wynnleaf - May 10, 2006 1:34 pm (#2130 of 2969)
Of course, if he did a spell at the time of that switch, it would not only have been non-verbal, but also wandless. However, I've realized that there are several times when Snape does wandless magic, the first (I think) being the countercurse for Quirrell's broom curse at the Quidditch match in PS.
Magic Words - May 10, 2006 1:54 pm (#2131 of 2969)
"There was one paragraph that made me think that Snape knew about the plan. I can't quote it now - no books, but it was right after he pulls Narcissa up and looks right into her face." -Haymoni
I can't remember the part offhand, but if they've just made eye contact, I would bet he found out at that moment.
Soul Search - May 10, 2006 2:52 pm (#2132 of 2969)
Magic Words, likely that Snape could read Narcissa. Keeping in mind that it was Bellatrix that taught Draco Occulmency, rather than his mother.
Potter Ace - May 11, 2006 8:37 am (#2133 of 2969)
I don't think that Snape knew of the plan, he was bluffing about his role in order to have the ladies bring that subject to the "front" of their minds to "read" them so he would know of the actual plan. It seemed like such a false bravado act. Another thing that leads me to believe that he did not know of the plan is that I just can't see LV sitting around and talking gossip or shooting the breeze at it were. I would think that when LV asked Draco to preform the task, that he would have had all the parties present that he would have wanted to know about the plan. Think back to GOF and the rebirthing scene, he never mentions the name or the task of the DE (Crouch Jr.) that help send Harry to the cemetery. LV is way too much of a micro manager to involve outside people. With any instruction or task given to DE's, I would think that only LV and that particular DE would know of the instructions given. Loose lips sink ships to coin a phrase.
Anna L. Black - May 12, 2006 1:17 am (#2134 of 2969)
There might be a reason for Voldemort to tell Snape about the plan - Snape is, after all, Draco's teacher and Head of House. That can be related in two ways:
First, Snape is the person who knows Draco best (perhaps even better than his own parents), Voldemort might have wanted to know "what Draco is like". But that sounds pretty far-fetched.
Second, Voldemort might have instructed Snape not to interfere with Draco's actions (A detention could have ruined the plan). Or he could have told him not to give Draco any direct help, if he asks for it. That seems more likely.
Ann - May 12, 2006 4:32 am (#2135 of 2969)
Or he might have mentioned his intention in the course of a rant about how angry he was with Lucius. I agree that Voldemort isn't one for casual confidences, but, like so many evil overlords, he does like to rant about the failures of his minions and brag about how creatively he plans to punish them. If Snape was telling the truth about Voldemort intending to have him do it in the end, his master might have alluded to that in the course of bragging to him about how clever he was being in punishing Lucius by giving Draco an impossible task. After all, Narcissa says he's the Dark Lord's favorite, and Bella's spite suggests that she's not just flattering him. After all, Voldemort has very few minions who have screwed up as rarely as Snape. And he might also secretly think more highly of Snape because he's a half-blood--just as he apparently rated Harry more dangerous than Neville.
haymoni - May 12, 2006 4:45 am (#2136 of 2969)
Hey Ann - where ya been?
I see a lot of similarities between Voldy & Snape - the half-blood bit being the most obvious.
Even Dumbledore suggested that Voldy saw the danger of Harry, The Half-Blood over Neville, The Pure-Blood.
It would be interesting to see Snape & Voldy interacting. Too bad the Scar Connection has been severed.
Dobby Socks - May 13, 2006 2:25 am (#2137 of 2969)
Edited May 13, 2006 3:34 am
Sorry to interrupt the flow, but I need to go back several days to address this…
Solitare, I’m assuming this is a rhetorical question, but since I introduced the mess, I’ll take a stab at answering…
”If Snape was indeed present throughout the entire prophecy--with Dumbledore's permission--then perhaps we should be looking for a different eavesdropper. I find it hard to believe Dumbledore would mention that someone heard half the prophecy and was then detected and thrown out if it were not true. Why make up such a silly lie?”
Beats me, Solitare :::shrugs::: …I don’t believe that particular theory, so it’s hard for me to make a case for it. But I know I read an essay recently which involved that presumption at least in part. I’ll try to find it. I can’t remember all the particular explanations given, probably because I’ve been reading too much lately (I hadn’t read any of the RAB thread yet, and since we were talking about it, I went back and read all 1,000 or so posts in one afternoon – oy – and I keep wondering why I have to use Visine all the time.)
I know there was also an essay on the topic on Mugglenet at some point. And there’s been some discussion on the Lexicon forum, which is hard to forget because of the vehemence of the objections raised.
O.K., here are the links that I found:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] (This one starts to address the issue about a quarter of the way through.)
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] (red hen discusses it in the first 10th of the essay or so, and dedicates most of the rest to exploring her theory about Snape and Dumbledore’s plans to fake DD’s death.) …Also of note, there is a mention in there of the “sibling rivalry” between Snape and Harry that rambkowalczyk brought up. (Always a good sign when multiple people come to the same conclusion.) Red hen has some interesting ideas, some of which I would consider, others of which I don’t buy at all.
----I know there was another on Mugglenet, but I can’t find it now; ah well.
I don’t want to go into the theory in detail because I don’t want to give anyone the impression that I subscribe to it. It’s certainly intriguing, as many theories are, but it’s just not believable to me.
From what I’ve skimmed through looking for the sources, the answer to your question about the purpose of even bringing up an eavesdropper if this theory were correct is that LV has to think Snape is a spy for his side, therefore Snape has to assume the role of eavesdropper (and one caught part way through, thus stopping him from hearing the 2nd part of the prophecy.) On Dumbledore’s end, it’s also wise to stick to that story in general since anyone to whom he tells the truth could find themselves in a compromising situation with LV and be forced to reveal that information. In OotP, Albus has to avoid Harry because of the worry that LV might be “listening in on” his and Harry’s conversations. Additionally, DD wouldn’t want Harry to know the role he played in the Potter’s deaths. He needs Harry to trust him, and Harry might not be ready yet to see how DD’s actions were beneficial to the WW on a larger scale.
That said, I’m not going to argue this theory because, like I said, I don’t believe in it. I simply brought it up to illustrate one of the possible implications of a Regulus-Severus pairing if it seriously affected the timeline in terms of Snape working for Dumbledore pre-prophecy.
Anna L. Black - May 13, 2006 2:53 am (#2138 of 2969)
Edited May 13, 2006 3:54 am
I don't think that Dumbledore lied (or gave us only part of the truth) when he said that the eavesdropper only heard half of the prophecy. The chain of events, as I see it, is such:
Snape eavesdrops on Trelawney's interview -->
Trelawney goes into trance and starts giving the prophecy -->
After Snape hears half of the prophecy, Aberforth catches him -->
While Trelawney delivers the second part of the prophecy, Aberforth drags Snape and: -->
As she finishes, they burst into the room, and she wakes up (because she finished or because the noise startled her).
That way, Snape only hears the first half, he really is "detected only a short way into the prophecy", but he isn't thrown out of the building immediately, as it might seem at first, but a few minutes later, which isn't really that much difference. I believe it fits everything we were told so far about what happened in the Hog's Head that night.
Dobby Socks - May 13, 2006 4:56 am (#2139 of 2969)
Edited May 13, 2006 6:00 am
Yep, Anna,
That's how I think it happened also.
During the second half, Snape and Aberforth could also have been in a heated discussion about his eavesdropping, in which case he'd miss the rest of the prophecy. Afterwards, the two of them burst in through the door, either because they're in the midst of a physical altercation or, more likely, because Aberforth is bringing the eavesdropper to his brother's attention.
I agree completely.
It does fit both Dumbledore and Trelawney's accounts, even though they seem contradictory at first blush.
Solitaire - May 13, 2006 8:39 am (#2140 of 2969)
he had promised Snape that he wouldn't discuss his relationship with Lily
Did I miss something in one of the books, or is this just a theory?
Gina, thanks for bringing up Avery. I've often wondered what became of him. I suspected he'd been killed by Voldemort, but perhaps he has not ...
Magic Words, likely that Snape could read Narcissa. Keeping in mind that it was Bellatrix that taught Draco Occulmency, rather than his mother.
We are told in OotP that Snape is "a superb Occlumens." I've often wondered, though, how this would help him teach Harry. Anyone wanting to learn Occlumency--the ability to block someone from reading one's thoughts---would obviously need a Legilimens to read his thoughts ... right? It would seem Snape is also a skilled Legilimens, if he is "reading" Narcissa. Or could she have "sent" him that message deliberately, when he looked into her eyes? If she had done so, would Bella have been able to detect it?
Solitaire
Edited May 8, 2006 8:16 am
I don't think Regulus's note sounds like he was working with someone else. Apart from the fact that he says "I" throughout, and he signs only his own initials, he sounds like it's a personal thing between him and Voldemort. If Snape was involved, I think it would have sounded different, even if Snape had said (as he would have) don't mention me. So I think Regulus was alone or, more probably, with Kreacher, which he would probably have regarded as being alone, given the way that most purebloods regard house-elves. Who knows? Kreacher may have been involved in putting the Horcrux on the island in the first place. That might explain how Regulus managed to get it.
I don't think Dumbledore and Snape could have changed places using Polyjuice, and I don't think Dumbledore had been to the cave before. Aside from the fact that Snape would never have the patience to pretend to be Dumbledore for so long, Dumbledore told Harry he would not lie to him, and although he has clearly not told him everything, he also told Harry that he would not tell him everything (end of PS/SS). Sad though it is, Dumbledore's dead. And Snape's alive, which will, I'm sure, turn out to be a Very Good Thing.
I don't think Dumbledore realized the Horcrux was a fake--who would know if Regulus was acting alone or with Kreacher and then immediately was killed? I think the point of showing how brilliant Dumbledore is at getting past Voldemort's barriers is not to show how brilliant he is, but to illustrate how important it is to know Voldemort well in order to defeat him. Dumbledore can predict what sort of magic Voldemort will use because he knows him so well. And he's spent the year showing Harry Voldemort's life and background so that Harry will also know him well and be able to do this sort of thing, too. It explains Harry's "special lessons" on a practical level, aside from its literary value in giving the reader background. Note that Snape also knows Voldemort pretty well.
But although I don't see a connection between Snape and Regulus at the Cave, I think there probably was a connection. It was in fall 1979, I'm quite sure, that Snape heard the Prophecy (only half--Dumbledore never lies), and I think he turned away from Voldemort very quickly thereafter. Regulus was in his Hogwarts house and a few years younger, and may have known Snape well enough to see and then share his disgust at what Voldemort was willing to do. (Could Regulus also have liked Lily? JKR says she was "a very popular girl.") But he rebelled in a different way. Slughorn may have been especially fond of him (having failed to snag Sirius) and I would bet it was through Slughorn that Regulus learned about Voldemort's interest in Horcruxes. Slughorn clearly didn't confide that he might make multiple ones, though--the note implies only one. But though I don't think he told Snape about the Cave, Regulus may have mentioned early on in his research that Slughorn had had a conversation about Horcruxes with Voldemort. And Snape told Dumbledore. How else would Dumbledore have known to ask Slughorn for the memory of it?
(Sorry to natter on so!)
Dobby Socks - May 8, 2006 7:17 am (#2102 of 2969)
Edited May 8, 2006 8:22 am
Choices,
Sorry about jumping down your throat like that. I’ve been having a rough couple of weeks. (Muggle doctors and their “complementary” medicine… Grrrr. Didn't mean to take it out on you.)
Puck: “I have noticed that many of the DE underestimate those they consider "beneath" them. It is not surprising, therefore, that LV would do so in regard to the boat.” Quite true.
Solitare,
There’s been a theory floated that Snape turned to Dumbledore before the Prophecy occurred. From what Trelawney tells Harry in HBP, it appears that Snape was physically present when she came out of the trance. Could he have heard the entire thing? Could Dumbledore (and Aberforth, presuming he’s the one who threw Snape out of the Hog’s Head) have let this happen as part of the “grand plan” with the rationale that in a war it’s better to kill one person to save a hundred (to take out of context the psychological example that someone used a couple weeks ago)?
This has been shot down repeatedly since it seems to be completely out of character for Dumbledore, and because no one had ever survived an AK. The whole point would be for them (or Snape, if he was acting alone) to intentionally allow the creation of a person who would be able to effect Voldemort’s downfall. To do this they would have to 1.) Have faith in the prophecy 2.) Interpret the “marked him as an equal” phrase to mean the child would definitely survive a murder attempt by LV, and 3.) Be willing to sacrifice the parents if it came to that. On top of this, Lily would have to make the sacrifice she did.
I don’t buy it for the above reasons, plus Snape’s turnabout appears to have happened at least in part because of events that unfolded due to his passing the partial prophecy to Voldemort.
And it would involve outright lies on Dumbledore’s part, and some very dubious moral decisions.
At any rate, that’s the theory I was referring to.
Dobby Socks - May 8, 2006 7:34 am (#2103 of 2969)
"I think the point of showing how brilliant Dumbledore is at getting past Voldemort's barriers is not to show how brilliant he is, but to illustrate how important it is to know Voldemort well in order to defeat him. Dumbledore can predict what sort of magic Voldemort will use because he knows him so well. And he's spent the year showing Harry Voldemort's life and background so that Harry will also know him well and be able to do this sort of thing, too. It explains Harry's "special lessons" on a practical level, aside from its literary value in giving the reader background. Note that Snape also knows Voldemort pretty well.
Excellent points Ann. I agree that there's probably a connection between Regulus and Severus, but not likely the cave.
wynnleaf - May 8, 2006 8:11 am (#2104 of 2969)
Edited May 8, 2006 9:12 am
As I read the arguments, I agree that it seems like it's really pushing the timeline for Severus to have been with Regulas in the cave. On the other hand, I do wonder if Severus knew something about Regulas' visit to the cave, or at least that Regulas knew about at least one horcrux. As someone else mentioned, how did DD ever know there was a horcrux conversation between Slughorn and Riddle to be curious about it?
There's too many similarities in the circumstances of Severus and Regulas (close in age, both in Slytherin, both DE's, both wanting "out," both attempting to do something toward LV's defeat) to not think that Severus knew more about what Regulas was doing than we've yet been told.
Choices - May 8, 2006 8:28 am (#2105 of 2969)
Edited May 8, 2006 9:36 am
Dobby Socks - "Out of curiosity, Choices, can you find any flaws in wynnleaf’s theory, or can I deduce that because you decided to criticize my aside instead, you can’t find a flaw? Or that you agree with the possible flaw I found? Or that you’re waiting for something worthier to discuss?"
I think Dobby, if you go back and read my post #2095, you will see that I did not criticize anything - I simply quoted two sentences that were in the book. Not one word of the post was mine - it came straight from the book and was in no way a criticism of anything. It was merely to clarify what Dumbledore said.
Sorry that I was unclear as to who had said that - Wynnleaf and not you. As to Wynnleaf's theory - I am of the opinion that Severus was in no way connected to Regulus in finding the Horcrux.
Soul Search - May 8, 2006 8:42 am (#2106 of 2969)
The whole process of Regulus (R.A.B.) retrieving the locket from the cave gets way too complicated. How did he find it? Know it was a locket and to bring a replacement(with note)? Know he would probably die? Who to take to help, but not alert the boat? etc?
A while back, on the R.A.B topic, I proposed that Voldemort sent R.A.B. to put the locket in the cave. This makes even more sense after recent discussion.
The idea is sort of like the pirate captain taking some of his crew to bury some treasure. Only the captain returns.
Well, Voldemort wants to hide the locket horcrux and has already prepared the cave, but doesn't want to go there himself. Maybe he has prepared a trap so well that even he couldn't escape it. He sends R.A.B. He has prepared things so that R.A.B won't return.
But, R.A.B figures things out, perhaps with help from Snape, and puts in the fake locket. He may or may not have made it out of the cave. He might, in fact, be the inferi that Harry aroused with his "accio" spell.
This might also fit with Snape's disaffection from Voldemort.
Okay, have at it.
wynnleaf - May 8, 2006 10:13 am (#2107 of 2969)
Edited May 8, 2006 11:15 am
Soul Search,
I like your ideas.
How about this as a possibility to go along with yours? Suppose Severus knew that Regulas was going to the cave, as per LV's orders. He knows Regulas wants LV brought down and is planning to steal the locket and leave something else there instead. Regulas knows Snape is like-minded to him, so he tells Snape about LV's orders regarding the horcrux and the cave. But Severus doesn't go along. Regulas dies following his trip to the cave -- he may have actually gotten out of the cave, or perhaps Kreacher was along, but somehow the locket got back to #12 Grimmauld. Regulas died before he could fill Snape in on exactly what had occurred. Severus knew Regulas was going and knew the locket was to be there, but never knew exactly what was the result other than that Regulas had died. So later, he told DD all about it, but neither Severus or DD know for sure whether or not Regulas had been able to leave the real, or a fake, locket horcrux in the cave. So when DD went to the cave, he knew a great deal of what to expect. LV had given Regulas fairly explicit instructions and Regulas had told Severus all about it prior to his journey to the cave. So Severus could have told DD all that Regulas told him. But, DD wouldn't know for sure which locket horcrux was in the cave -- the real or the fake.
When he took the locket out, he'd have already known that it could be the real horcrux, or could be the one Regulas had planned to leave behind. So even if DD had read the note, it wouldn't have concerned him too much. He'd have known who RAB was, and he'd have realized that RAB must have taken the real horcrux with him.
haymoni - May 8, 2006 10:17 am (#2108 of 2969)
Sounds as good as anything else we've come up with!!!
rambkowalczyk - May 8, 2006 11:18 am (#2109 of 2969)
I read a fan fict story about Regulus and Snape working together. The gist was that Regulus knew the horcrux was in the lake and Snape had replaced the potion surrounding the horcrux with a slow acting poison so that if Voldemort were to retrieve the horcrux he would die. Now back to reality
In OOP, it says that when Harry is looking at the tapestry he notes that Regulus died some 15 years earlier. Since Harry just turned 15, it means that Regulus died in 1980. Where are people getting 1979? If it comes from the Black tapestry auction, then I wonder if we might have to conclude that when Regulus died isn't all that important. If it was important JKR would have these facts agreeing.
Dumbledore says 4 years ago he "received certain proof that Voldemort had split his soul" Prior to this he had no proof that Voldemort made horcruxes. So it is possible that Snape may have made mention of them but could provide no proof. I can't therefore believe that Snape had any knowledge of the cave from Regulus.
whatever reason there was for Snape's break with Voldemort is linked directly with what Dumbledore told Harry in HBP. And that if there's more to the story of his turn to the good side, it will simply expand on Dumbledore's words rather than introduce some other, additional reasons unrelated to the whole prophecy affair. Saracene
agreed.
I’m starting to lean toward Lily-Severus because it appears to be the one that would wrap up all the loose ends most neatly... Dobby Socks
Dumbledore obviously considered telling Harry the whole truth before they left for the cave, but decided against it. Severus-Lily would expand on his comments, but not nullify them. Dobby Socks
Dumbledore must have promised Snape that he would never reveal to Harry that Snape had some affection for Lily.
I’ve always personally felt that the reasons for Snape's hatred of Harry go beyond the memory of James and have more to do with Snape’s desire to be the one to engineer LV’s downfall. Thus, he despises the fact that a lesser wizard than himself is the one destined to do so. (Someone else has brought this up a few times… rambkowalczyk maybe?) Dobby Socks
Recently I brought up the idea of sibling rivalry between Snape and Harry for Dumbledore's attention on respect. I stated it in terms of Snape seeking respect and looking for it from either Voldemort or Dumbledore, and that now that Harry is occupying Dumbledore's time, Snape is feeling unappreciated and therefore could be tempted to go back to Voldemort.
Dobby Sock's idea does give Snape another reason to be jealous of Harry and definately hate him but in this case he can't go back to Voldemort. It means if Snape wants Voldemort to be defeated he has to keep Harry alive.
it seems more and more to be developing into Harry’s story with Severus Snape as the main antagonist. Dobby Socks
agreed! In fact it seems as though there might be two climaxes: Harry and Voldemort,, Harry and Snape.
journeymom - May 8, 2006 11:57 am (#2110 of 2969)
Edited May 8, 2006 12:57 pm
"Where are people getting 1979? If it comes from the Black tapestry auction, then I wonder if we might have to conclude that when Regulus died isn't all that important. If it was important JKR would have these facts agreeing. "
Yes, it comes from the tapestry.
mike miller - May 8, 2006 12:02 pm (#2111 of 2969)
I seriously doubt Voldemort shared the information that he had created even one horcrux with anyone. Voldemort did not even tell Lucius what he truely had in the Diary; and, Malfoy seems to have been part of Voldemort's inner circle from the beginning.
I doubt that Dumbledore shared the information that Voldemort had create even one horcrux with anyone but Harry.
I doubt that Regulus would have shared with Severus that he wanted out of the Death Eater's. Severus appears, and may well be, one of Voldemort's strongest supporters and the last person Regulus would tell. I doubt Severus knows about the horcruxes even at this stage of the story.
I think it was simply a matter of Regulus wanting out and knowing he would need something to "hold over Voldemort's head" if he wanted to stay alive. Through stealth he followed Voldemort, learned of the existence of the locket horcrux and brought Kreacher to assist him in get it. His actions somehow betrayed his intentions and he was killed.
Soul Search - May 8, 2006 1:23 pm (#2112 of 2969)
wynnleaf, Your scenario fits all our speculation. Well done.
rambkowalczyk, the idea that Snape became disaffected with Voldemort over some action related to Regulus and went to Dumbledore relating "remorse" over telling Voldemort the prophecy are not incompatible. Both could very well be true and it makes more sense that both are true.
mike miller, Voldemort certainly wouldn't want anyone to know about horcruxes, especially the plural. If someone did find out, he would probably be sent on some mission that had no return. Like putting the locket in the cave.
Magic Words - May 8, 2006 1:41 pm (#2113 of 2969)
What if RAB was given the locket to put in the cave, but not told what it was? Voldemort could have just said it was a weapon that they would need later on, like he told Lucius Malfoy the diary was enchanted to open the Chamber of Secrets. Later on, RAB could have gathered more clues and figured out the locket was a Horcrux, but he would already know how to get past the barriers.
Solitaire - May 8, 2006 6:18 pm (#2114 of 2969)
If Snape was indeed present throughout the entire prophecy--with Dumbledore's permission--then perhaps we should be looking for a different eavesdropper. I find it hard to believe Dumbledore would mention that someone heard half the prophecy and was then detected and thrown out if it were not true. Why make up such a silly lie?
Solitaire
Steve Newton - May 9, 2006 5:00 am (#2115 of 2969)
It seems to me that Aberforth was around to hear the prophecy.
wynnleaf - May 9, 2006 5:20 am (#2116 of 2969)
As to whether Regulas would have gone to Severus --- he might not have had to. Severus was the spy. He was supposed to be (one assumes) observing not only LV, but the other DE's. He could have become suspicious that Regulas was wanting out. Regulas was after all quite young and perhaps not the greatest actor. Anyway, it could have been Snape approaching Regulas and eventually winning his trust that he (Snape) could help in opposing LV.
In this scenario, it would not have been DD revealing the existence of horcruxes to Snape. He wouldn't have had to, as Snape would have already known through Regulas. As someone else said, where in the world did DD ever learn that Slughorn had ever had a horcrux conversation with LV??? Somebody had to tell DD, and I think we can assume it wasn't Slughorn.
On Snape hearing the prophecy...I really think JKR was pretty clear through DD's comments and his explanation of Trelawney's comments that it was Snape who heard the prophecy, but only a partial prophecy.
Solitaire - May 9, 2006 5:58 am (#2117 of 2969)
Edited May 9, 2006 7:03 am
Yes, Aberforth was there. But I somehow feel he was not the eavesdropper. Just a hunch ... but I suppose any further comments about Abe need to be on his own thread.
Solitaire
journeymom - May 9, 2006 11:52 am (#2118 of 2969)
" As someone else said, where in the world did DD ever learn that Slughorn had ever had a horcrux conversation with LV???"
There's a scenario that possibly explains it.
Knowledge of horcruxes seems to be very confidential. There was only one vague reference to them in the Hogwarts library. If there are only a few people in wizarding Britain who would know what they are and how to make them, perhaps Dd was able to deduce from whom Tom Riddle got his information from .
Just a thought.
haymoni - May 9, 2006 1:03 pm (#2119 of 2969)
How do we know that there is only 1 vague reference to them?
Hermione went looking for it - I'm guessing she had gotten special permission to be in the Restricted Section, but how would she know where to look?
Apparently there isn't a card catalogue system at Hogwarts, because they had such a hard time finding out about Flamel.
I can't picture Hermione asking Madame Pince about Horcruxes anymore than her asking about Nicholas Flamel.
Gina R Snape - May 9, 2006 4:55 pm (#2120 of 2969)
Edited May 9, 2006 6:13 pm
Horcruxes were outlawed from being discussed at the school. There's a good chance Pince went and removed any references to them. Seeing as how it is the darkest of dark magic, chances are there wasn't a whole lot at the school on it to begin with.
As for the rest of the library, I have always wondered why there was no card catalogue! Not only could they not find Flamel, they had problems finding gillyweed as well.
I don't think Snape was with Regulus Black regarding the locket. It just doesn't make sense to me, when we see what DD went through, that Snape would know about the fake locket. I do wonder about that potion, though.
I can see Snape and Regulus having interactions in the past, though. And I have always suspected Snape and Avery may be talking, that Avery may be working from the inside.
haymoni - May 9, 2006 5:48 pm (#2121 of 2969)
Gina - I asked you in the chat thread - anything on the Snape Trial yet?
Magic Words - May 9, 2006 6:15 pm (#2122 of 2969)
Why Avery, Gina? I don't recall reading much more about him than his name.
winlia - May 9, 2006 7:03 pm (#2123 of 2969)
Edited May 9, 2006 8:05 pm
You all have me rereading the end of HBP in order to keep up with the thread, and I just noticed how odd DD and Harry's conversation is before they leave for the cave. Harry is (understandably) worked up about Snape and the prophecy, and he tells DD that Malfoy has just succeeded in fixing something in the Room or Requirement, and that DD is leaving just when something is likely to happen. DD cuts him off pretty abruptly and tells him that extra protection is in place and that he does not wish to discuss it any further.
Makes me wonder just what DD knew about Malfoy and his plans, and whether he anticipated his own death. We know from the tower scene that DD didn't know about the vanishing cabinet specifically, but doesn't it say somewhere that DD knew that Malfoy was planning on killing him?
DD specifically mentions how dangerous the trip to the cave would be. Given that and Malfoy's plotting, one has to wonder why DD didn't give Harry more direction about how to carry on and whom to trust should he, DD, not survive. Even if DD didn't want to elaborate on the circumstances of Snape's return because he had promised Snape that he wouldn't discuss his relationship with Lily, I would think that he would stress more strongly his trust of Snape and the necessity for Harry to cultivate the same.
Catherine - May 10, 2006 5:45 am (#2124 of 2969)
As for the rest of the library, I have always wondered why there was no card catalogue! --Gina
So have I. I remember shaking my head when Snape had Harry copy over the punishment cards in detention, wondering, "But where is the card catalogue?"
Gina, I have also harbored the same suspicion about Avery.
Gina R Snape - May 10, 2006 5:52 am (#2125 of 2969)
Edited May 10, 2006 6:53 am
haymoni, what is it you want to know about the Snape trial? I have not heard any word from the Accio people about follow up regarding the conference.
Avery has been seen in a few places a few times, but remains curiously unnoticed nonetheless. Harry witnessed him being punished for something by Voldemort. We also know he's been working for the Ministry. And we do not have confirmation that he was at the Ministry when the DEs lured Harry there to get the prophesy.
haymoni - May 10, 2006 6:53 am (#2126 of 2969)
Oh, I just thought they may have released the transcript. Some lawyer types around work had wanted to read it and I hadn't asked lately.
I re-read "Spinners End" last night. There was one paragraph that made me think that Snape knew about the plan. I can't quote it now - no books, but it was right after he pulls Narcissa up and looks right into her face. It is possible that he could have just gotten the info from her at that point, but he says something right after that made me think that he knew Draco had to kill Dumbledore.
I also wondered about the twitch during the Vow. We saw Voldy's hand twitch when he cursed the DADA job. Is it possible that Snape cast some sort of spell to protect himself from the Vow?
wynnleaf - May 10, 2006 7:33 am (#2127 of 2969)
Edited May 10, 2006 8:33 am
I also wondered about the twitch during the Vow. We saw Voldy's hand twitch when he cursed the DADA job. Is it possible that Snape cast some sort of spell to protect himself from the Vow?
That's an interesting observation. Maybe there's not a spell that could just jump in and be protection in an Unbreakable Vow, but perhaps there was something else magical that he was doing?
What I keep remembering is that this is supposedly the first half of one big book. And then I remember how in GOF we learned in one of the last chapters how all those little apparently trivial details had been linked together into explaining what was really going on. So who knows? The twitch was definitely something. Maybe just a revealing of emotion, but maybe something magical.
Ann - May 10, 2006 11:40 am (#2128 of 2969)
Edited May 10, 2006 12:41 pm
Snape twitches a lot, actually. I'm still wondering about his twitch in GoF when Harry says that Malfoy senior was at Voldie's re-birthing party. (That makes two twitches caused by Malfoys, doesn't it?) And I think there are other significant twitches, though I can't think of them at the moment. Another summer project to put off doing real work, perhaps, unless someone has already gone through the books and collected twitches?
Catherine - May 10, 2006 1:17 pm (#2129 of 2969)
Well, now I will have to go back and rethink Snape and twitches.
That could prove interesting, especially given his teachings about non-verbal spells.
wynnleaf - May 10, 2006 1:34 pm (#2130 of 2969)
Of course, if he did a spell at the time of that switch, it would not only have been non-verbal, but also wandless. However, I've realized that there are several times when Snape does wandless magic, the first (I think) being the countercurse for Quirrell's broom curse at the Quidditch match in PS.
Magic Words - May 10, 2006 1:54 pm (#2131 of 2969)
"There was one paragraph that made me think that Snape knew about the plan. I can't quote it now - no books, but it was right after he pulls Narcissa up and looks right into her face." -Haymoni
I can't remember the part offhand, but if they've just made eye contact, I would bet he found out at that moment.
Soul Search - May 10, 2006 2:52 pm (#2132 of 2969)
Magic Words, likely that Snape could read Narcissa. Keeping in mind that it was Bellatrix that taught Draco Occulmency, rather than his mother.
Potter Ace - May 11, 2006 8:37 am (#2133 of 2969)
I don't think that Snape knew of the plan, he was bluffing about his role in order to have the ladies bring that subject to the "front" of their minds to "read" them so he would know of the actual plan. It seemed like such a false bravado act. Another thing that leads me to believe that he did not know of the plan is that I just can't see LV sitting around and talking gossip or shooting the breeze at it were. I would think that when LV asked Draco to preform the task, that he would have had all the parties present that he would have wanted to know about the plan. Think back to GOF and the rebirthing scene, he never mentions the name or the task of the DE (Crouch Jr.) that help send Harry to the cemetery. LV is way too much of a micro manager to involve outside people. With any instruction or task given to DE's, I would think that only LV and that particular DE would know of the instructions given. Loose lips sink ships to coin a phrase.
Anna L. Black - May 12, 2006 1:17 am (#2134 of 2969)
There might be a reason for Voldemort to tell Snape about the plan - Snape is, after all, Draco's teacher and Head of House. That can be related in two ways:
First, Snape is the person who knows Draco best (perhaps even better than his own parents), Voldemort might have wanted to know "what Draco is like". But that sounds pretty far-fetched.
Second, Voldemort might have instructed Snape not to interfere with Draco's actions (A detention could have ruined the plan
). Or he could have told him not to give Draco any direct help, if he asks for it. That seems more likely. Ann - May 12, 2006 4:32 am (#2135 of 2969)
Or he might have mentioned his intention in the course of a rant about how angry he was with Lucius. I agree that Voldemort isn't one for casual confidences, but, like so many evil overlords, he does like to rant about the failures of his minions and brag about how creatively he plans to punish them. If Snape was telling the truth about Voldemort intending to have him do it in the end, his master might have alluded to that in the course of bragging to him about how clever he was being in punishing Lucius by giving Draco an impossible task. After all, Narcissa says he's the Dark Lord's favorite, and Bella's spite suggests that she's not just flattering him. After all, Voldemort has very few minions who have screwed up as rarely as Snape. And he might also secretly think more highly of Snape because he's a half-blood--just as he apparently rated Harry more dangerous than Neville.
haymoni - May 12, 2006 4:45 am (#2136 of 2969)
Hey Ann - where ya been?
I see a lot of similarities between Voldy & Snape - the half-blood bit being the most obvious.
Even Dumbledore suggested that Voldy saw the danger of Harry, The Half-Blood over Neville, The Pure-Blood.
It would be interesting to see Snape & Voldy interacting. Too bad the Scar Connection has been severed.
Dobby Socks - May 13, 2006 2:25 am (#2137 of 2969)
Edited May 13, 2006 3:34 am
Sorry to interrupt the flow, but I need to go back several days to address this…
Solitare, I’m assuming this is a rhetorical question, but since I introduced the mess, I’ll take a stab at answering…
”If Snape was indeed present throughout the entire prophecy--with Dumbledore's permission--then perhaps we should be looking for a different eavesdropper. I find it hard to believe Dumbledore would mention that someone heard half the prophecy and was then detected and thrown out if it were not true. Why make up such a silly lie?”
Beats me, Solitare :::shrugs::: …I don’t believe that particular theory, so it’s hard for me to make a case for it. But I know I read an essay recently which involved that presumption at least in part. I’ll try to find it. I can’t remember all the particular explanations given, probably because I’ve been reading too much lately (I hadn’t read any of the RAB thread yet, and since we were talking about it, I went back and read all 1,000 or so posts in one afternoon – oy – and I keep wondering why I have to use Visine all the time.)
I know there was also an essay on the topic on Mugglenet at some point. And there’s been some discussion on the Lexicon forum, which is hard to forget because of the vehemence of the objections raised.
O.K., here are the links that I found:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] (This one starts to address the issue about a quarter of the way through.)
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] (red hen discusses it in the first 10th of the essay or so, and dedicates most of the rest to exploring her theory about Snape and Dumbledore’s plans to fake DD’s death.) …Also of note, there is a mention in there of the “sibling rivalry” between Snape and Harry that rambkowalczyk brought up. (Always a good sign when multiple people come to the same conclusion.) Red hen has some interesting ideas, some of which I would consider, others of which I don’t buy at all.
----I know there was another on Mugglenet, but I can’t find it now; ah well.
I don’t want to go into the theory in detail because I don’t want to give anyone the impression that I subscribe to it. It’s certainly intriguing, as many theories are, but it’s just not believable to me.
From what I’ve skimmed through looking for the sources, the answer to your question about the purpose of even bringing up an eavesdropper if this theory were correct is that LV has to think Snape is a spy for his side, therefore Snape has to assume the role of eavesdropper (and one caught part way through, thus stopping him from hearing the 2nd part of the prophecy.) On Dumbledore’s end, it’s also wise to stick to that story in general since anyone to whom he tells the truth could find themselves in a compromising situation with LV and be forced to reveal that information. In OotP, Albus has to avoid Harry because of the worry that LV might be “listening in on” his and Harry’s conversations. Additionally, DD wouldn’t want Harry to know the role he played in the Potter’s deaths. He needs Harry to trust him, and Harry might not be ready yet to see how DD’s actions were beneficial to the WW on a larger scale.
That said, I’m not going to argue this theory because, like I said, I don’t believe in it. I simply brought it up to illustrate one of the possible implications of a Regulus-Severus pairing if it seriously affected the timeline in terms of Snape working for Dumbledore pre-prophecy.
Anna L. Black - May 13, 2006 2:53 am (#2138 of 2969)
Edited May 13, 2006 3:54 am
I don't think that Dumbledore lied (or gave us only part of the truth) when he said that the eavesdropper only heard half of the prophecy. The chain of events, as I see it, is such:
Snape eavesdrops on Trelawney's interview -->
Trelawney goes into trance and starts giving the prophecy -->
After Snape hears half of the prophecy, Aberforth catches him -->
While Trelawney delivers the second part of the prophecy, Aberforth drags Snape and: -->
As she finishes, they burst into the room, and she wakes up (because she finished or because the noise startled her).
That way, Snape only hears the first half, he really is "detected only a short way into the prophecy", but he isn't thrown out of the building immediately, as it might seem at first, but a few minutes later, which isn't really that much difference. I believe it fits everything we were told so far about what happened in the Hog's Head that night.
Dobby Socks - May 13, 2006 4:56 am (#2139 of 2969)
Edited May 13, 2006 6:00 am
Yep, Anna,
That's how I think it happened also.
During the second half, Snape and Aberforth could also have been in a heated discussion about his eavesdropping, in which case he'd miss the rest of the prophecy. Afterwards, the two of them burst in through the door, either because they're in the midst of a physical altercation or, more likely, because Aberforth is bringing the eavesdropper to his brother's attention.
I agree completely.
It does fit both Dumbledore and Trelawney's accounts, even though they seem contradictory at first blush.
Solitaire - May 13, 2006 8:39 am (#2140 of 2969)
he had promised Snape that he wouldn't discuss his relationship with Lily
Did I miss something in one of the books, or is this just a theory?
Gina, thanks for bringing up Avery. I've often wondered what became of him. I suspected he'd been killed by Voldemort, but perhaps he has not ...
Magic Words, likely that Snape could read Narcissa. Keeping in mind that it was Bellatrix that taught Draco Occulmency, rather than his mother.
We are told in OotP that Snape is "a superb Occlumens." I've often wondered, though, how this would help him teach Harry. Anyone wanting to learn Occlumency--the ability to block someone from reading one's thoughts---would obviously need a Legilimens to read his thoughts ... right? It would seem Snape is also a skilled Legilimens, if he is "reading" Narcissa. Or could she have "sent" him that message deliberately, when he looked into her eyes? If she had done so, would Bella have been able to detect it?
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wynnleaf - May 13, 2006 9:05 am (#2141 of 2969)
Edited May 13, 2006 10:07 am
I was disappointed that the red hen article built so much of its case around the idea that Snape heard the entire prophecy and that DD intentionally misinformed Harry regarding that. It would be so very easy to block out (acting expression) such a scene just as Anna and Dobby Socks described where Snape heard only part of the prophecy, was interrupted by Alberforth and was still seen by Trelawney. I found much of the red hen article interesting, however, although she basically covers things that we've discussed at length here.
As regards Narcissa, we don't have any evidence that she's an occlumens -- after all, neither Lucius or Narcissa taught Draco. At Spinner's End, her emotions were very much "up front," so it might be easy for Snape to use legilimency on her.
I've been reading some various articles that theorize different variations on Snape's character in attempts to explain his actions and words. I've recently read several excellent ones that consider him emotionally immature. And red hen's article hypothesizes that much of Snape's hatred of Harry is based more on a sibling rivalry (DD as father figure), than James' memory -- this view is also in the Snape-as-emotionally-immature viewpoint.
Snape being a master occlumens and probably at least a strong legilimens seems somewhat at odds to me with also being emotionally immature and being emotionally adolescent. Occlumency in particular, and possibly legilimency would appear to necessitate a very high degree of emotional control and precise mental ability. That just doesn't fit with the theory that Snape is extremely immature emotionally.
The other thing that doesn't fit the "emotionally immature" characterization is Snape's long term success as a double agent. In addition to the obvious acting skills necessary, this would take someone able to live on the emotional edge for years at a time without breaking cover. Sorry, just doesn't fit the emotionally immature picture that we often assume in Snape's character. Further, if Snape is on the Bad side, there's no way such an immature character would fool DD for so long. And if he's on the Good side, then there's no way DD would have trusted him to such a great extent at the end of HBP if he thought him immature.
Of course, he's had three huge examples of loosing his temper in a big way, but two of them were at particularly stressful and dangerous times, and the pensieve scene was a particularly strong example of invasion of privacy.
Otherwise, the evidence for emotional immaturity is primarily found in the way he talks to his students. There's probably an assumption among most that anyone who would talk that way must be emotionally immature, but I'm not so certain of that, particularly as I recall several people that I've known that talked that way. I think there can be other explanations for that kind of communication style. Of course, I figure it's a lost cause trying to convince anyone of that except people who already know and enjoy people that talk that way...
TheSaint - May 13, 2006 1:03 pm (#2142 of 2969)
Also of note, there is a mention in there of the “sibling rivalry” between Snape and Harry that rambkowalczyk brought up.
See...I always had the impression the sibling rivaly was between James and Snape. Kind of like the illegitamte half brother...ala King Arthur and Mordred. I always wondered about James' comment about Snape 'existing.'
I have to wonder if Harry's break through of Snape's defences during Occulemency lessons was meant to happen. Is Harry that great a Legilemens or did Snape slip up...or let down his defences purposely?
winlia - May 13, 2006 2:10 pm (#2143 of 2969)
Wynnleaf
Regarding Snape's seeming lack of emotional maturity...
If we accept that Snape is partially responsible for the Potter's deaths because he reported the prophecy, then it follows that Snape's life has been consumed (to his detriment) with trying to put it right. If James had listened to his advice, the Potters might still be alive and Snape wouldn't be in this horrible double-spy predicament. That's huge incentive for Snape to resent both James and Harry. (Had Harry never been conceived, Snape might be better off. Or maybe he'd just be indebted to Neville.)
I think Snape reverts to childish behavior regarding Harry, not because he doesn't know any better, but because he has no other outlet for the resentment he feels. And the fact that Snape got himself into this predicament and Harry is blameless just makes it worse.
Snape will probably have his moment of glory in the end, but he's paid horribly for his prophecy mistake and will probably pay with his life before the end of 7. I hope not, but I think so.
wynnleaf - May 13, 2006 2:32 pm (#2144 of 2969)
Edited May 13, 2006 3:37 pm
winlia,
I agree with you in part. I don't think we can say that Snape's continued motivation toward defeating LV lies in the distant past. He would have had plenty of reason to develop a lot more reasons since the Potter's deaths. The situation with LV targeting the Potters appears to have lead him back to DD and a desire to defeat LV, but it doesn't necessarily follow that this continue to be his primary reason.
However, I agree that his hatred of Harry is likely rooted in the past and resentment not just of various and sundry bullying by James, but in particular his feeling that James' "arrogance" lead to the Potters deaths.
But Snape was stuck between LV and the good side as soon as he decided to leave LV -- and would have had almost the same predicament even if he had decided to oppose LV for some completely other reason. You don't just leave LV, whatever the reasons are. So his only real option was to spy for DD. In fact, one could argue that he could have felt some gratitude toward Harry's part in the Potter's deaths, since it lead to Snape's getting a sort of reprieve from LV for 10-12 years. But I don't think his hatred of Harry lies in Harry's part in LV's fall (or rise), but more likely for his part in Lily's death.
In the situation current to the books, Snape probably has some ongoing motivations to continue to feed his hatred of Harry -- not just Harry 's part in the tragedies or reminders of the past.
I don't personally agree with the sibling rivalry part. We aren't shown much about DD and Snape's relationship, but it is almost certainly as old as Harry and far beyond employer/employee. We don't know how much is father/son or mentoring, or friendship. But it's almost certainly very different from Harry's relationship with DD. And, by the way, DD might like Harry a lot, but he really spends very little time with him prior to HBP, whereas DD's apparently got a lot more direct contact with Severus. So I just don't see where the sibling rivalry thing would come about.
Further, I don't think Snape could feel a sibling rivalry thing with James, or through vicariously Harry, because we have no particular evidence that DD and James were close. Beyond the fact that DD gave James some advice and help regarding their going into hiding, we don't know that they were particularly close at all. Certainly, James did not try to use DD as a secret keeper. James was not like Harry and, among other things, had no need to look for a father figure in his life, like Harry and perhaps Severus do.
I was interested in the quote below by Alan Rickman. I know he's got at least some input from JKR on the character. We readers tend to assume that Severus' hatred of Harry is very strong and something he must focus on a lot, since he's apparently trying every single class meeting to be mean to Harry (we don't know this, it just seems like it).
"I think at heart Snape is basically quite an insecure person, he’s always longing to be something else that people will really respect like a black magician not just a school master. That's why he envies the more popular and successful boys like Harry. He does have a positive side though, even though Harry's a thorn in his side he doesn't let it worry him too much."
I struck me that Rickman sees Snape as disliking Harry, but not particularly wallowing in hate for Harry. Rickman doesn't play Snape as having this overwhelming dislike of Harry and constantly attempting to be mean to him. He does play him as sort of enjoying putting Harry down and assuming Harry is arrogant and always up to no good. Of course, we don't know how much is pure actor and director interpretation, and how much influence may have come from JKR.
winlia - May 13, 2006 2:58 pm (#2145 of 2969)
Wynnleaf
Pretty much anything Alan Rickman says or does is fine by me.
I see what you mean, but I do think that the prophecy mistake would continue to rankle. I see Snape as someone who dislikes making mistakes (fit's in with Rickman's comment about insecurity), and I don't think he would appreciate Harry as a constant reminder.
As for spying, didn't it appear that he had some choice at the end of GoF? I imagine LV gets everyone he targets in the end (except he won't get Harry, of course), but Snape may have preferred taking his chances without spying.
Soul Search - May 13, 2006 3:17 pm (#2146 of 2969)
winlia, I don't think Snape had much of a choice at the end of GoF. He either (pretended) to go back to Voldemort, or Voldemort would have hunted him down like Kakaroff. His only other choice would have been to go into deep hiding.
Solitaire - May 13, 2006 4:44 pm (#2147 of 2969)
If James had listened to his advice, the Potters might still be alive
If you are referring to the suggestion that James not use Sirius as the Secret Keeper, well ... he didn't, did he? He used Peter Pettigrew. Or are you referring to some other advice?
Solitaire
Magic Words - May 13, 2006 4:55 pm (#2148 of 2969)
"We aren't shown much about DD and Snape's relationship, but it is almost certainly as old as Harry and far beyond employer/employee. We don't know how much is father/son or mentoring, or friendship. But it's almost certainly very different from Harry's relationship with DD. And, by the way, DD might like Harry a lot, but he really spends very little time with him prior to HBP, whereas DD's apparently got a lot more direct contact with Severus. So I just don't see where the sibling rivalry thing would come about." -Wynnleaf
We know that DD "cares about" Harry (too much, he says in OotP) and he "trusts" Snape. We never get any indication that he cares for Snape beyond appreciating his role in the struggle against Voldemort. If Snape was in fact looking for a father/son relationship with DD, I'm sure it would rankle that he's been working with DD for years, and he's trusted, yes, but that's the extent of the relationship, then along comes this Potter kid and DD immediately starts putting the rest of the world on hold to safeguard this kid's happiness (not telling him the prophecy). As far as we know, DD never did anything to show consideration for Snape's feelings the way he has Harry's. I can definitely see Snape being jealous of that, which is how I interpreted the "sibling rivalry" idea.
winlia - May 13, 2006 6:33 pm (#2149 of 2969)
Solitare,
Doesn't Snape comment somewhere that James was too arrogant to listen to advice regarding hiding? Just Snape's view, of course.
rambkowalczyk - May 13, 2006 7:07 pm (#2150 of 2969)
he had promised Snape that he wouldn't discuss his relationship with Lily Did I miss something in one of the books, or is this just a theory? Solitaire
just a theory to explain why Dumbledore didn't tell Harry the full story when Harry confronted Dumbledore about Snape. If there is a Snape Lily relationship, I don't think Snape would want Harry to know of it.
I don't personally agree with the sibling rivalry part. ... And, by the way, DD might like Harry a lot, but he really spends very little time with him prior to HBP, whereas DD's apparently got a lot more direct contact with Severus. Wynnleaf
When I talk about sibling rivalry I don't necessarily think that Snape has any conscious awareness of his jealousy or that he is actively assessing how much time Dumbledore spends with Harry compared to him. But I think Snape does place importance on where he ranks in the Order. For instance it was important to Snape to let Sirius know that he was putting his life in danger while Sirius was housecleaning. Since Snape actually brings this up in front of Harry and further accuses Sirius of dodging responsibility by going to the train station with Harry, one wonders if subconsciously Snape is actually seeking Harry's approval--that is he is jealous of Harry's affection (respect)to Sirius.
Since Snape does place importance to the fact that he is doing important things in the order, he would be definately jealous if he (Snape) was not given the information that Harry was given in the sixth book. Although it is reasonable to assume Snape might know of the horcruxes, does he know there are seven. Did he know the ring was a horcrux? If Dumbledore hasn't told Snape as much as he told Harry, isn't it possible that he might feel that he was being taken for granted? That would be another possible reason why there was hatred on his face when he killed Dumbledore.
I don't think Snape could feel a sibling rivalry thing with James, or through vicariously Harry, because we have no particular evidence that DD and James were close. Wynnleaf
The jealousy is on the part of Snape only and it is due to his perceptions than hard fact. We know Snape and James hated each other similar to the way Harry and Draco hate each other as Dumbledore says this. I am making the assumption that when James was caught bullying, Snape would feel that James' punishment was lighter than if he were caught doing the same thing. I base this on McGonagall's recollection of James and Sirius trouble making (in POA)because she says this in a fond way.
Saracene - May 13, 2006 8:42 pm (#2151 of 2969)
I don't really think that emotional immaturity and ability to be an excellent Occlumens/spy are mutually exclusive. I think that Snape's strength, as an Occlumens and a spy, is his ability to repress and hide his real feelings and thoughts. But this ability does not necessarily make him emotionally mature.
Regarding Alan Rickman's quote, I find it interesting that he mentions absolutely nothing about Snape's hatred of Harry's father, which we can safely say is a canon fact, but says instead that Snape simply envies the successful boys like Harry. He makes it sound as if there's really nothing personal about Snape's distaste for Harry, which IMO goes completely against the picture the books paint.
"If James had listened to his advice, the Potters might still be alive and Snape wouldn't be in this horrible double-spy predicament. That's huge incentive for Snape to resent both James and Harry."
Yeah, I agree. Blaming James for his "arrogance" would help relieve Snape of his own feelings of guilt and he'd find some comfort in it.
Solitaire - May 13, 2006 9:29 pm (#2152 of 2969)
If James had listened to his advice, the Potters might still be alive
As I said earlier, James did use someone other than Sirius ... and the Potters are still dead. Snape has long known that it was not Sirius who betrayed the Potters, so that old argument is specious.
Solitaire
mooncalf - May 13, 2006 9:47 pm (#2153 of 2969)
Saracene, I agree with you that emotional immaturity and excellent occlumency skills are not mutually exclusive. JKR's characters are typically far more complex than that. We all know people who are mature in some ways and not in others. Snape clearly has issues, but that doesn't mean he's good for nothing! :-)
winlia - May 14, 2006 8:07 am (#2154 of 2969)
mooncalf, I agree with you and Saracene that is it possible for people to be mature in some ways and not in others, but the contrast in Snape is pretty dramatic. Even aside from the spying, he's leading a pretty sophisticated life as a Hogwarts Head-of-House, and yet he behaves like a first-year sometimes. I think that's the way JKR intends him to be, but in real life, I doubt there are many people in whom the contrast is that stark.
wynnleaf - May 14, 2006 8:34 am (#2155 of 2969)
Edited May 14, 2006 9:36 am
If James had listened to his advice, the Potters might still be alive
As I said earlier, James did use someone other than Sirius ... and the Potters are still dead. Snape has long known that it was not Sirius who betrayed the Potters, so that old argument is specious.
Well, it's a little different from that. We don't know for certain that the suspicions of James friends was from a spy's (Snape's?) input. When McGonagall, Hagrid and Fudge told Rosmerta the story, McGonagall said that DD was very concerned that someone "close to the Potters" was giving information on their whereabouts to LV. Apparently DD must have shared this concern with James, because he offered to be the Secret Keeper for the Potters, but James refused and seemed to have gone on at length to DD about his trust in Sirius. However, DD's suspicions (which may have come via a spy) did not focus specifically on Sirius, but close friends of the Potters in general.
James obviously did choose to trust both Sirius and Peter Pettigrew, in spite of DD's concerns and in spite of DD's offer to be the Secret Keeper.
Since McGonagall, Hagrid and Fudge all seemed well aware of these circumstances, and were unhesitatingly sharing it with Rosmerta, I think we can safely assume that Snape also knew that DD had shared his concerns with James and offered to be the Secret Keeper.
Snape (assuming he's on the good side) has obviously trusted DD with his life on an ongoing basis. He said that James was too arrogant to believe that one of his friends might have betrayed him. I can see why he'd think James' actions particularly arrogant, to refuse DD as Secret Keeper even in the light of suspicions of his friends.
Indeed, in spite of DD's concerns and even with the offer from an extremely trustworthy and powerful person like DD to be Secret Keeper, James chose to put not only his life, but also that of his wife and child on the line for his belief that none of his friends would betray him. Since Snape never thought much of any of the four anyway, it's natural that he'd consider this the height of arrogance.
One might assume Snape would only look back on this action of James with disdain, but it instead fuels his hatred. And that means that he takes this action of James' very personally.
As regards the immaturity thing -- yes there are definitely things that Snape does and says that show immaturity. The extremes are either unrealistic as winlia says, or there may be more to what Snape says and how he acts than we yet know.
I do think the Harry-centric mode of the narration changes are view. The Shrieking Shack chapter of POA makes Snapes actions and words appear over the top and immature. In fact, his words and actions are completely understandable for what the character knows at the time, and for what he thinks, mistakenly, is going on in the Shack.
Fawkes Egg - May 14, 2006 9:55 am (#2156 of 2969)
I have to wonder what it is about Snape that makes Dumbledore and Voldemort trust him, or appear to trust him. It can't be just his skills at Occlumency. Wouldn't Dumbledore and Voldemort both sense, being top-notch Legilimens themselves, that Occlumency was being used against them? Wouldn't they be suspicious as to why?
I find the whole Dumbledore-Snape-Voldemort interaction fascinating: it seesm to me that each of them is playing a very long game. In Voldemort's case, the object is total dominion over the WW and immortality. For Dumbledore, the object is ensuring that the WW (and Harry especially, as he pretty much admited in OotP) is free of such horrors as Voldemort. For both of them , Snape is an important player, if only because each side will think the other is being hoodwinked by him.
And for Snape? I suspect that the object of Snape's game is coming out ahead with his hide intact, regardless of who wins the war. Very, very Slytherin indeed!
JM2K!
On a lighter aside, whilst heading out to watch some birds today I passed a signpost pointing to...Snape!
Ann - May 14, 2006 10:12 am (#2157 of 2969)
Edited May 14, 2006 11:18 am
Solitaire: "James did use someone other than Sirius ... and the Potters are still dead. Snape has long known that it was not Sirius who betrayed the Potters, so that old argument is specious."
I agree with wynnleaf that it was not so much Sirius as any one of the three other Marauders. From Dumbledore's information (probably from Snape), one of them was likely to be a spy, and it's obvious from his apology in the Shrieking Shack that Sirius (and perhaps James as well) thought it was likely to be Remus. Peter may have helped foster this impression--I suspect he and Remus were not particularly close, since in a sense they were both rivals for the friendship of the more socially adept pair of their foursome. Remus was a werewolf, which might be seen as making it more likely he could turn to the Dark.
I'm sort of surprised that Snape didn't assume the traitor was Remus as well, given his experience with the werewolf. But he seems to have been secure enough to blame the proper person for that--Sirius. In fact, it may be wrong to accuse Snape of childishness for not being able to get over his dislike of the Marauders. James and Sirius (by changing Secret-Keepers, if not by actually betraying the Potters) and Peter were not just tormentors during his adolescence, but have made his adulthood miserable, too. If what Dumbledore said was true, Snape must surely have been anguished by the Potters' deaths. After realizing what he'd done, he did everything possible to save them, probably at great risk to himself. And then James disregarded his warnings and got not only himself, but Lily killed. Snape knows that on the deepest level, he is responsibile for that, and it must be wrenching to know that it might have been prevented. It's not childish to dislike the arrogant attitude that brought on the horrible consequences of his bad decision.
His treatment of Harry is horrible and abusive, but if he loved Lily, one can sort of understand it. I agree with those who think that his questions to Harry in that first Potions class were to see if there was any of Lily in him besides his eyes. But his evaluation is clearly distorted by Harry's fame, which has given him all the credit for Lily's sacrifice. Because Harry is famous and valued by everyone (at first, even Draco wants to befriend him), Snape sees him as James. One can see why Harry, neglected and abused by the Dursleys, enjoys that initial fame, but Snape doesn't realize quite where he's coming from. After giving him a "chance" to show that he's Lily's son, too, Snape evidently decided that Harry was all Potter, and his subsequent experiences of the risks Harry takes, seen through that Snape filter, would tend to confirm his view.
He fails to notice (usually because he has incomplete information) that the risks Harry takes and the rules he breaks are for a higher (if sometime mistaken) purpose than his father's. This is shown quite clearly in OotP, where Sirius tells Harry that reckless breaking of the rules is what makes it fun. Harry's dislike for Snape, particularly in OotP, and Draco, in HBP, only lead him to misguided actions, which further justify Snape's view of him. The eye contact necessary for those horrible Occlumency lessons must have been excruciating for Snape.
JKR has really done a masterful job of setting these two men, who in reality are quite similar in many ways (and particularly their relationship to Dumbledore), against each other.
wynnleaf - May 14, 2006 10:58 am (#2158 of 2969)
Ann,
Until you post I never consider something. If Snape cared a lot for Lily (even friendship), it could have been extremely galling to here Harry spoken of as having "defeated" LV, when Snape knew that it wasn't really Harry that did it, but Lily's sacrifice. I'd thought before that Snape could have resented Harry because Lily made that sacrifice, but how much more so to hear people praise Harry for that, when it was really Lily and it meant her death.
Solitaire - May 14, 2006 1:38 pm (#2159 of 2969)
Edited May 14, 2006 2:40 pm
I have a hard time accepting James, Sirius and Remus as responsible for making Snape miserable as an adult. They may have tormented him as an adolescent (although I still believe Snape gave as good as he got), but Snape is an adult now and has been for many years. At some point, people have to start taking responsibility for their own actions and attitudes. I think it is long past time for Snape to realize that he and he alone is responsible for his life now. If Snape is going to torment Harry, he needs to accept that he is a miserable, rotten human being who is tormenting Harry for his own pleasure and not for something that happened years ago.
BTW, I realize most people don't agree with me. That's okay. I don't mind being alone in disliking Snape, his attitudes, and his behavior.
Solitaire
wynnleaf - May 14, 2006 1:49 pm (#2160 of 2969)
Edited May 14, 2006 3:15 pm
Solitaire, understanding the reasons behind one's actions, and taking responsibility for one's own actions are not mutually exclusive things, you know.
I did not notice anyone saying recently that the Maruaders were responsible for Snape's actions. But perhaps you were simply being rhetorical.
I just realized something else about the "arrogance" of James and Sirius that I'd never thought of before. The whole reason they chose Peter was because they figured that no one would ever suspect Peter would be chosen. Why not?? Wasn't he one of the Marauders? Wasn't he supposed to be a good friend, too? But Sirius and James thought no one would ever think weak, timid Peter would be given any important secrets. After all, why would anyone expect them to trust their secrets to weak Peter? If you think about it, within a supposedly very close circle of friends, that's a very arrogant viewpoint and pretty clearly shows that for all their inclusiveness of Peter in their group, Sirius and James actually looked down on him. But they were wrong, and he turned out to be just the person that LV would get information from.
Soul Search - May 14, 2006 2:24 pm (#2161 of 2969)
wynnleaf, good points about Wormtail.
I wonder if I am doing the same thing: writing Wormtail off as being too weak to play any role in book seven?
Solitaire - May 14, 2006 3:46 pm (#2162 of 2969)
Edited May 14, 2006 4:47 pm
The whole reason they chose Peter was because they figured that no one would ever suspect Peter would be chosen.
Do remember that Sirius made that comment when he was in a state of incredibly deep anger and pain, Wynnleaf. Peter betrayed not only the Potters but also Sirius. He robbed Sirius of twelve years of his life and stamped him a murderous traitor in the eyes of the world. It must have been incredibly painful to discover one of the people he had trusted most in the world could so easily sell out James and Lily and then turn around and betray him, as well.
I can more easily acquit Sirius of irrational behavior than I can anyone else of his age group, including Snape. After all, none of them had been incarcerated in Azkaban, a place that is known to drive most people crazy. And Sirius had those twelve years to let that hurt, anger, and sense of betrayal fester and brew. It's little wonder he exploded in anger at Peter.
Solitaire
winlia - May 14, 2006 4:38 pm (#2163 of 2969)
wynnleaf
Thanks for the info, a couple of posts back, regarding the Potter's secret keeper. I really must reread these books (yet again).
Solitaire - May 14, 2006 5:44 pm (#2164 of 2969)
Above, I said, "I can more easily acquit Sirius of irrational behavior ..." I should have said that I can more easily forgive his behavior, given the circumstances that precipitated it.
Solitaire
Ann - May 14, 2006 9:06 pm (#2165 of 2969)
Edited May 14, 2006 10:15 pm
Solitaire, I'm not saying Snape's treatment of Harry is acceptable; obviously it isn't. I'm saying it is understandable, and not necessarily childish. The principle crime he accuses James and Sirius and Harry of is arrogance--destructive arrogance and disregard for the rules that gets themselves and others hurt. This is something that people of all ages can find enraging.
Sirius tried to murder Snape at 16, and in a way that would have had horrible consequences for Lupin as well. I don't think it's childish to despise his actions. We love Sirius because we see how much he loves Harry, and how much he loved James, and because he's been unjustly imprisoned for a crime he didn't commit. We see things through Harry's eyes, so he's a sympathetic character. But obviously, to Snape, the murder attempt outweighs everything. No one's ever tried to murder me (possibly because no one on the Lexicon knows where I live), but I think I'd resent it very deeply, too. I can imagine hating the perpetrator. (One could mention parallels in recent international politics here, but I'll refrain.)
James's arrogance is also obvious, certainly in the Pensieve scene. The idea that it's justifiable to attack Snape just because he exists is despicable, as Harry realizes. The recklessness is less obvious, since it comes in the form of disregarding good advice: Snape's advice. Snape, feeling terribly guilty for setting Voldemort after the Potters, gives them, through Dumbledore, information that would save them: Don't trust any of your close friends, because one of them is a spy for Voldemort. James arrogantly refuses to believe that one of his friends could betray him, and ignoring Snape's warning, precipitates a situation leading to his own death and Lily's. They're all in their early 20s at the time. Snape must take some responsibility for these deaths, and if James had been more willing to listen to reason, he would not have to bear this guilt. It is understandable that he resents this. (Obviously, neither Snape nor James are responsible for their deaths: Voldemort is, and Wormtail is also far guiltier than either.)
Snape's conclusions about Harry are less justified. Harry, when Snape first encounters him, is famous for something he didn't do and looks just like his dad. He has also heard from the Weasleys that Snape is predisposed to prejudice against Gryffindors. And he'd had that sharp reaction in his scar, by coincidence just as he looked at Snape (who was talking to Quirrell). Lots of reasons for them to dislike one another. Then, when Snape fires a string of Potions questions at him, Harry quickly gets fed up and, rather uncharacteristically, mouths off. ("Why don't you ask Hermione?") This is enough to confirm Snape in his suspicion that Harry is just like his father, and subsequent rule breaking and running his friends into danger can be seen as further justification for his conclusions, particularly in 5th year, where his lack of faith in Snape's ability to handle the situation (he doesn't even think of him, and then doesn't trust him to pass on the message) leads him to drag his friends off to the Ministry, where they all might have been killed, and Sirius is killed. I don't say that the way Snape treats Harry as a result of these conclusions is justified, but there is evidence for his conclusions.
Solitaire - May 15, 2006 6:11 am (#2166 of 2969)
I've often wondered ... did Sirius really intend for Snape to die, or did he intend for him to be bitten by Remus and turn into a Werewolf himself? I'll agree that neither option says too much about Sirius's character at that time, although I can't help thinking there was more backstory to that mutual hatred than simply Sirius and James being bullies.
I've often wondered whether Snape lured Regulus into the DEs as a kind of payback for that episode. What better way to hurt Sirius than to turn his brother into the thing he hated?
Solitaire
wynnleaf - May 15, 2006 6:11 am (#2167 of 2969)
Edited May 15, 2006 7:18 am
Ann,
That was an excellent post.
I'm currently reading COS to my 1st grader and last night we were reading the part where Harry, Ron and Hermione plot to steal ingredients of polyjuice potion from Snape's private stores. I was glad, as I read this to my daughter, that she'd already seen the movie because it gave me an opportunity to point out aspects of the story that a first time reader who had not seen the movie might miss.
All of Harry's interactions with Snape are written from Harry's point of view and this was no exception. In that chapter, the reader is made to view Snape as a Bad Man, the Enemy that HRH have to get past in order to get the necessary ingredients to do their Heroic Deed and get the Truth about Draco being the instigator of opening the Chamber of Secrets. However, once we know what's really going on it should be easy to see that HRH have taken their childish feud with Malfoy and in their willingness to believe absolutely any evil of Draco, determine that he simply must be the one that opened the Chamber. So what do they do? They decide to brew a dangerous potion with which to impersonate other students. In order to do this, they put together a plan to cause dangerous explosions in the Potions classroom which injure many completely innocent students (not HRH of course), and then they sneak into the teacher's storeroom to steal private supplies. Later, they put their own health at risk through the potion, they drug two other students, and then slip into another House's common room to interrogate another student under false pretenses. And all of this was completely unnecessary as Draco was not involved with the Chamber at all.
I asked my 1st grader, as well as my 5th grader (also listening) what they thought of a kid in their class doing that kind of thing and when put that way, they clearly saw that what HRH did was actually a terrible thing to do and any teacher would have plenty of cause to be utterly furious with them.
Now, Snape didn't catch HRH red-handed. But he knew that they were somehow responsible. He realized they were most likely responsible for the explosion and later he realized they'd stolen from his stores. He eventually figured out that they may have even been brewing polyjuice potion.
My point is that as each year goes by, Snape would be seeing, at least from his point of view, plenty of reasons to believe that Harry was in fact just as arrogant as James ever was, just as much a trouble maker, just as much convinced that the rules don't apply to him, and so on. And Snape doesn't get to see what we do -- more of what's really going on with Harry and some of his motivations and some of the extenuating circumstances. But he does get to see DD and McGonagall handing out points to Harry and the trio basically getting away with anything.
Funny, the way the end of OOTP is written, the points McGonagall gives HRH at the end seem fitting. But when I really think about how unnecessary their trip to the MOM was, and that people were killed and injured as a result, the giving of those points seems more ludicrous than anything.
None of this makes it "okay" for Snape to be mean to Harry. But given that Snape speaks in a naturally sarcastic tone in the first place, it's not surprising that he'd ratchet up the sarcasm and malice toward a student who he knows breaks rules right and left, endangers other students, lies to him, and who the child's head of house and the headmaster appear to give a free rein.
Solitaire - May 15, 2006 6:20 am (#2168 of 2969)
And all of this was completely unnecessary as Draco was not involved with the Chamber at all.
They didn't know that at the time, did they? And Draco seemed kind of cocky and know-it-all about what was happening. No wonder they suspected him. I'll admit I do not like the Trio's "ends-justifies-the-means" behavior, but things often seem to work that way in the Wizarding World, from what I see. Besides, no one else was doing anything to stop the attacks, and Harry was being blamed for it all. In his place, I probably would resort to extreme behavior, too. And btw, it was a Malfoy (Lucius) who incited the trouble by planting the Diary with Ginny ... wasn't it?
Solitaire
wynnleaf - May 15, 2006 6:32 am (#2169 of 2969)
Edited May 15, 2006 7:34 am
Just because the kid you dislike in school is a cocky know-it-all, and just because you don't like people being suspicious of you, doesn't mean it makes any kind of sense to 1. steal from a teacher 2. set off dangerous explosions and injure innocent students 3. brew a dangerous and controlled substance and take it 4. drug your fellow (innocent) students 5. impersonate other students and 6. question another student under false pretenses.
Don't you think that's an awful lot of mayhem in response to what they see as the problem? They assume no one is trying to do anything about it. After all, they never ask do they?
And Lucius being guilty of planting the diary doesn't make Draco guilty, any more than James being a bully makes Harry a bully.
Ann - May 15, 2006 9:41 am (#2170 of 2969)
Edited May 15, 2006 10:50 am
Solitaire, you surprise me. "I'll admit I do not like the Trio's "ends-justifies-the-means" behavior, but things often seem to work that way in the Wizarding World, from what I see."
The wizarding world seems to work rather similarly to ours, meaning that people do all sorts of wrong and hurtful things under the guise of noble ends. We all know where that road paved with good intentions can lead. I, frankly, don't think JKR is going to let Harry & Co. get away with it. Awarding Neville Longbottom those cup-winning points that first year for standing up to the trio is a huge clue to what she sees as real courage. Dumbledore rewards physical courage, of course; he's training soldiers for battle. And Harry's determination to save the stone is laudable. But if Neville had succeeded in stopping them, what would have happened? Harry and Ron wouldn't have been injured; Dumbledore would have arrived to find Quirrell still unable to get the stone; and he might have been able to save Quirrell when Voldemort fled.
Interestingly, Harry's most noble actions have frequently had this effect: letting Wormtail live, sharing the Triwizard victory with Cedric, going to save Sirius, even obeying Dumbledore's orders in HBP. Interestingly, it's in CoS (where, as wynnleaf points out, the trio has in some ways been the most ruthless) that Harry is the most unambiguously heroic--he kills the dragon and saves the princess, and bags his first Horcrux by showing loyalty to Dumbledore.
But adulthood is largely the ability to realize that other people see things differently than we do and aren't necessarily wrong--that people we don't like aren't always evil, and that people we do like aren't always good. Harry's reaction to the Pensieve scene is the beginning of this journey, and he's going to have to complete it (for literary, if not logistical reasons) before he's truly developed as a character sufficiently to fight Voldemort.
Solitaire - May 15, 2006 11:36 am (#2171 of 2969)
I agree with everything you say, Ann. Like I said, I do not like ends-justify-the-means actions, and I like to think I would never act that way myself. I suppose, though, that I really do put my "willing suspension of disbelief" to work and am able to thoroughly identify with Harry. He feels desperate, and desperate people sometimes resort to desperate and unwise measures.
You have cited several "ends-justfiy-the-means" situations, so I think I am correct in saying that the philosophy is frequently adopted. I never said it was right ... just that it was used a lot. The Trio bends and breaks rules frequently. It might be said to be their modus operandi. Sometimes things work out (Ginny is saved from the Basilisk because Harry and Ron were running around the castle in defiance of the rules; they overhear what has happened and decided to take action), and sometimes they do not (Harry & Co. charge off to the DoM, and Sirius winds up dead).
Perhaps I am in a mood to be sympathetic to Harry's transgressions right now, because I am in a situation where I feel I have lost control and no one will listen to the truth. I apologize for having offended anyone.
Solitaire
winlia - May 15, 2006 1:42 pm (#2172 of 2969)
Solitare, Ann, and wynnleaf,
I thoroughly enjoyed all your posts. Fiction involving kids often revolves around a stunning lack of supervision. Much has been written about one or both parents being deceased or "away" in the books, movies, and TV shows about childhood adventures. (In fact, the only exception to this rule that readily comes to my mind--I'm sure there are others--is Timmy constantly falling in the well, or some such thing. Where were his parents? How did they justify leaving the dog in charge? Anyway...)
I don't think we're meant to look too closely at Harry's daring and lack of judgment, or I should say, failure to anticipate the consequences. I'm sure if we looked closely, we'd decide that his best course of action in many of the situations would have been to tell an adult. Nor would DD and the others have let him run loose in the real world. But if Harry and Co. didn't take liberties, there would be no books. I think we're meant to see him they way Solitare sees him, not entirely blameless, but with his heart firmly in the right place. Harry's not trying to hurt anyone, at least not until the end of book 6.
I think it's different with Sirius and James; we're meant to see them as arrogant. The Worst Memory and the luring of Snape to the shack are very focused. There are some mitigating factors. James outgrew it, or started to, poor guy. Sirius is a sympathetic character given Azkaban and his death. But overall, their arrogance is meant to register with us; Harry's is more defused and some of it exists just to move the plot along.
Solitare, Sorry to hear of your troubles. Hope it works out.
Die Zimtzicke - May 15, 2006 2:59 pm (#2173 of 2969)
We had to see James being an arrogant jerk to Snape because he had to be an arrogant jerk with someone, to get Harry OFF the idea that his father was a saint, in my opinion. (This is probably because I wish he'd pay more attention to the fact that he is his mother's son. She's the one who died to save him after all.) Snape was the most logical choice for that kind of memory, to bring Harry to that kind of realization. He had idealized James, and ideals are something you can never attain/sustain as I see it. There's always a catch. Snape was the perfect person to bring that home to him, and it was then confirmed, gently, but definitely confirmed by Remus and Sirius.
Ann - May 15, 2006 3:35 pm (#2174 of 2969)
Edited May 15, 2006 4:38 pm
Solitaire, my sympathy on your situation. Losing control of a situation and being unable to get anyone to listen can be hellish.
I wasn't remotely offended, just surprised. I thought that, as a teacher, you'd see that Snape's opinion of Harry as a rule-breaker had some substance behind it. Snape is a horrible teacher, but he's not quite the monster Harry assumes him to be. Kids, as you know, can be absolutely ruthless when they dislike a teacher, and Snape is, even without his personality, the sort of teacher kids are prejudiced against at first sight and tend to attack as nastily as they can. Harry absolutely disregards him from the outset--dismisses him as not worth listening to or learning from--and Snape reacts in extremely counterproductive ways. But a reaction of some sort is not unwarranted; it's the bitter, retaliatory aspect of it that's wrong.
I think winlia is right: we're meant to read these books from Harry's point of view. But Harry's growing up, and his point of view is becoming more generous and adult, and I think he (and the reader) is soon going to be brought around to a broader view of Snape. He's a complete caricature in PS/SS--because Harry has a childish (and inaccurate) black-and-white view of him. From PoA to GoF to OotP, were given a much more varied view of him. He's become increasingly complex and satisfying as a character as Harry matures and allows us to see more of him. But although we are now getting additional information and hints about where Snape might be coming from, Harry is holding fast to his prejudices--helped by the author, who is I'm sure deluding Harry (and us) by what she chooses to show us. HBP is all about making us think again that Snape is the cardboard cut-out black hat that he seemed in PS/SS. Book 7, I predict, will be largely about Harry (and us) learning to get past those prejudices. Not that Snape is going to adopt Harry or anything, but they're going to have to work together. Closely.
Okay. Back to the depressing stack of final exams. (Yuck!)
winlia - May 15, 2006 7:09 pm (#2175 of 2969)
I'm reading SS to my 8-year-old son (again, not that I'm complaining) and got to Harry's first potions class. I think JKR exaggerated some of Snape's nastiness so that the younger readers understand what's going on. One or two nasty remarks, and a young kid may not understand that Harry's being singled out and that Snape dislikes him vehemently. (The way it's written, Snape's teaching career would be short-lived in the real world. I can't imagine that the school or the parents would tolerate such remarks, especially directed at a student who is only eleven.) JKR did the same thing with Sirius' death--she mentions several times how horrible Harry feels and how deeply he's mourning. An adult wouldn't need Snape's nastiness or Harry grief spelled out so explicitly.
Solitaire - May 15, 2006 8:49 pm (#2176 of 2969)
his best course of action in many of the situations would have been to tell an adult
I agree. Unfortunately, the adults in Harry's world are not always available or able to help. Think about it ...
In PS/SS, the kids do seek out Dumbledore but are told by McGonagall that he has gone to London to the Ministry of Magic. McGonagall--whom I truly do love and think is a wonderful teacher--blows off the kids' concern and shoos them outside. They take action only after they honestly believe all other avenues have been cut off.
In CoS, Dumbledore has been placed on suspension and none of the heads of houses--McGonagall, Sprout, Snape, or Flitwick--seem to have a clue what to do. Lockhart's about as helpful as a water pistol in a forest fire; his response is simply to flee the castle and leave Ginny to her fate. Harry and Ron finally decide to take matters into their own hands when they realize that if they do not, Ginny is as good as dead.
In PoA it is Dumbledore himself who has Hermione use the Time Turner, so that Buckbeak (condemned to death) and Sirius (due to have his soul sucked out of him) both can be set free ... much to the irritation of the Malfoys and Snape.
In GoF Harry must contend against unfair criticism and slander when he is accused of entering the contest against the rules. Even his best friend turns on him for a while. Throughout the story Rita makes his life a living hell. In the end, when he tries to make people understand what has happened, he is branded a lunatic (possibly even Cedric's murderer) and slandered continually in the Daily Prophet. So much for trying to tell the truth.
In OotP, Harry must contend with the painful incursions Voldemort has been making into his mind. Dumbledore believes him, which would probably have been enough to sustain him, had it not been for Dumbledore's distant demeanor. Instead of trying to help Harry understand what is happening to him, he cuts off all personal contact, leaving Harry angry and hurt. Then Umbridge cuts Harry off from Sirius, one of his few comforts. At his darkest hour, all of the adults Harry trusts (Dumbledore, McGonagall, Hagrid) have been sent away from Hogwarts. He is left to the cold comfort of Snape ... and forced to trust him. Sadly, Snape's actions can be interpreted two ways--helpful or obstructive. Given the way Snape has treated Harry from day one, is it little wonder Harry has no faith in Snape?
Harry feels alone, except for his friends, and he feels he is the only one who can save Sirius. Yes, he was wrong, and had he listened to Dumbledore, Sirius might be alive. But Dumbledore mishandled the situation, I think. He didn't help Harry understand, did he?
I'll stop there. I just think that, while Harry frequently did the wrong thing, I think he always acted in good faith. What's more, he generally took this action only when he felt he had been abandoned by those adults who should have been there to help him. Yes, I confess I do see things as Harry sees them ... but then I think that is how we are supposed to see them.
Solitaire
wynnleaf - May 16, 2006 5:31 am (#2177 of 2969)
Edited May 16, 2006 6:34 am
First, I agree with Ann's last post completely.
Solitaire said: I'll stop there. I just think that, while Harry frequently did the wrong thing, I think he always acted in good faith. What's more, he generally took this action only when he felt he had been abandoned by those adults who should have been there to help him. Yes, I confess I do see things as Harry sees them ... but then I think that is how we are supposed to see them.
There's a difference between what the reader sees and knows (all of Harry's pov), and what characters know. Snape, as I mentioned before, doesn't know all that Harry is experiencing, his motivations, etc. And the way you list events of the books, it makes it sound like HRH only act when adults aren't available or aren't responding (you may not have meant that, but it seemed like that from your listing). But many of their beliefs about situations are completely erroneous and they act on those beliefs -- for instance that Snape is trying to steal the philosophers stone or that Draco is opening the Chamber of Secrets. The example that I had given earlier -- of HRH's actions to question Draco in COS -- happened before DD had left Hogwarts. It didn't happen out of necessity, but because of their own assumptions that they just had to be right about Draco and that it was up to them to prove his guilt.
Following isn't about Snape specifically, but is directly related to why I take the views I do of Snape and other characters.
To address the books more broadly, I am often uncertain how to take JKR's writing. When I first read the books, I read the 1st four books almost back to back. When reading PS and COS, I was enjoying them like children's adventure books. For instance, the Dursleys were awful, but I didn't question the significance of what happened to Harry there -- as regarding the abuse and its effects, for instance. I didn't question the adults at first -- I took them purely on face value, assuming that as these were kid's books, whatever I was told was exactly what the author wanted me to believe. And I didn't question the "good" kids versus the "bad" kids. I accepted that the good kids always had mostly good reasons for what they did, and that it was okay to think the worst of the "bad" kids because they'd been set up by the author to be the "bad" guys. I didn't question the hexes, jinxes, etc. that the "good" or "bad" kids inflicted on each other because since this was a kid's book, nothing would "really" hurt anyone, right? It got dark at the end of COS, but, hey, I could deal with it and still saw it as a kid's book. The funny names of people and things, and a lot of funny dialog helped keep me thinking all was really okay -- this was just fun, right?
POA changed that for me. The evil villian turned out to have been wrongly accused and spent 12 years in a horrendous prison. The hates and grudges of adults came into play. Lupin, this guy I'd been convinced to like, acted very irresponsibly. The "cute" rat of two books turned out to be the wicked betrayer.
By GOF, I'd stopped seeing things as kid's books. We readers were lead along to like Moody, enjoy his apparent sympathy and support of Harry and even Neville, only to discover he was more evil than anyone we'd met so far other than LV. While seeing Moody as a strong "good" guy who supported Harry, I'd taken Moody's warning remarks to Snape as a "good" adult that thought of Snape as pretty slimy, even if he had saved Harry in PS. Then I find out the "Moody" that made those veiled threats was one of the most loyal DE's. Funny stuff kept happening, but Cedric's death was completely serious and LV was nothing, but dark. No, not the cardboard villian of a cartoon -- this was truly dark and evil.
By OOTP, it was clear that the "good" guys were not necessarily wearing white hats. The parent of Harry that we'd been lead to believe was all heroics and goodness, we suddenly saw in a scene for the first time and he was a bully. Sirius, the guy we'd seen as purely sympathetic before, was pressuring Harry to be James, was angry and depressed -- Sirius was not acting like a children's book character. He was acting like a real person with some major weaknesses. Umbridge's actions had gone far beyond the ridiculous nastiness of Filch (threats of dungeon tortures, how silly), and went directly to true physical abuse. There was no kidding myself about whether to take it seriously or not. Nope, it was really abuse and couldn't be hidden under the "only a kid's book" notion, like the first book was able to do with the Dursley's.
Now I find that I see all of the books, even the early ones, as much more serious and dark. But that leaves me still in a lot of quandaries about how to take the actions of various characters. For instance, Fred and George are clearly written for us readers to really enjoy. But they seriously injured Montague. So what if he was a "bad" guy? I can't take the kid's book idea anymore that some kids are just "bad" guys because HRH see them that way. Because it's not really a superficial kid's book. So what if Montague was being an unpleasant Slytherin? Did he deserve what happened to him? No. Should Fred and George have gotten away with it scot free? No. But they did.
I can no longer tell how JKR want's us to take things. I don't see how we can sort incidences into different categories and say "this nasty remark is serious and means something terrible about this character," but on the other hand say, "this terrible action isn't really bad because in the world of these kid's books this stuff happens all the time and it's okay."
My tendency now is to assume that everything that happens, whether it seems funny or serious, should still be considered seriously for it's impact on the other characters and what it reveals about a character. JKR might not mean it that way, but there's just far too much that's dark, in depth, and deadly serious about the books to do otherwise.
Oh, by the way, I do think these books are written primarily for children - older children, but yes I still think they're the primary audience. I just don't think they can be read like typical children's books, even the really good children's books.
Catherine - May 16, 2006 6:23 am (#2178 of 2969)
Edited May 16, 2006 7:24 am
Snape is a horrible teacher, but he's not quite the monster Harry assumes him to be.--Ann
Harry, in my opnion, is quite justified in seeing Snape as monstrous.
Snape initiated Harry's response to him. I strongly disagree with Ann that Harry was determined to disregard Snape. Snape was staring at Harry with dislike at the opening feast in SS/PS. He then ridiculed Harry at the beginning of the first Potions class. No matter what, Snape is an adult, and he "started it." Harry, in my opinion, should not be blamed for reacting negatively to a teacher who obviously loathes him. Snape's cruelty to Neville, and his meanness toward Hermione also serve to reinforce this opinion.
I am a teacher; I have taught 7th grade, all high school grades, and college. I have learned one essential fact: One gives respect in order to receive respect. While Sirius didn't quite live up to these words in regard to Kreacher, he did have a point about noticing how a man treats his inferiors, not his equals. I'm noticing Snape, and I don't like what I see.
I am not suggesting that Snape's actions toward Harry justify Harry's rule-breaking, (they don't), but at the end of the day, Snape had the responsibility to be a grown-up, and he either could not, or would not, behave as one.
Mrs Brisbee - May 16, 2006 6:45 am (#2179 of 2969)
Edited May 16, 2006 8:03 am
Well said, Catherine. I don't think we can make light of Snape having created the mistrust in the first place. Harry's mistrust of Snape is real and well placed. It is true that Harry needs to grow to see beyond it, but Snape's actions are at the heart and cause of the troubles. It is both sad and pathetic the amount of damage Snape has done.
Wynnleaf, that was also a very good post. I do think Rowling wants her readers to think about the characters' actions. Everything done by the Good Guys isn't necessarily nice and good and right, and everything done by the Bad Guys isn't Eeeeviiill! The causes that they fight for, and the means they use to achieve those ends are both important.
Magic Words - May 16, 2006 7:30 am (#2180 of 2969)
To an extend, Wynnleaf, I'd say you (and I both) had just the reaction JKR was going for - the early books are kids' books, they can be slight caricatures because they're from the point of view of a child, but as the series goes on and Harry grows up he begins to realize that the world is not black and white.
As far as the questionable actions of some "good" characters: I read this on the Forum at some point, so I apologize for taking someone else's idea and not being able to cite, but it does seem part of the culture of the wizarding world to accept things that we Muggles wouldn't. Maybe it's because serious damage is much easier to put right with the flick of a wand, and therefore not so serious after all, but the books are replete with instances of characters' lives being in danger and no one blinking an eye (Triwizard tournament, detention in the Forbidden Forest, shoving Montague into a Vanishing Cabinet, to name a few). Now, some actions, like Snape's constant picking on Harry and Neville, don't fall under the category of life-threatening and are much harder to fix with magic (unless there's such thing as a self-esteem potion for Neville to try) but maybe the wizarding world ignores such things as well because, as I've said, their culture is simply more laid back.
To look at the same question from a literary point of view: I'm trying to refrain from saying "there'd be no story if this didn't happen" because that's an answer to everything and nothing. But I do think that JKR's storyline often depends on characters acting out how they really feel, as opposed to how they would act if they felt the same way but had to consider the regulations of society. So we see Snape bullying his students and Umbridge threatening Harry with an Unforgivable curse in front of several witnesses, and we have to kind of ignore the fact that they shouldn't get away with something like that, and just look at what it says about their characters.
Edited May 13, 2006 10:07 am
I was disappointed that the red hen article built so much of its case around the idea that Snape heard the entire prophecy and that DD intentionally misinformed Harry regarding that. It would be so very easy to block out (acting expression) such a scene just as Anna and Dobby Socks described where Snape heard only part of the prophecy, was interrupted by Alberforth and was still seen by Trelawney. I found much of the red hen article interesting, however, although she basically covers things that we've discussed at length here.
As regards Narcissa, we don't have any evidence that she's an occlumens -- after all, neither Lucius or Narcissa taught Draco. At Spinner's End, her emotions were very much "up front," so it might be easy for Snape to use legilimency on her.
I've been reading some various articles that theorize different variations on Snape's character in attempts to explain his actions and words. I've recently read several excellent ones that consider him emotionally immature. And red hen's article hypothesizes that much of Snape's hatred of Harry is based more on a sibling rivalry (DD as father figure), than James' memory -- this view is also in the Snape-as-emotionally-immature viewpoint.
Snape being a master occlumens and probably at least a strong legilimens seems somewhat at odds to me with also being emotionally immature and being emotionally adolescent. Occlumency in particular, and possibly legilimency would appear to necessitate a very high degree of emotional control and precise mental ability. That just doesn't fit with the theory that Snape is extremely immature emotionally.
The other thing that doesn't fit the "emotionally immature" characterization is Snape's long term success as a double agent. In addition to the obvious acting skills necessary, this would take someone able to live on the emotional edge for years at a time without breaking cover. Sorry, just doesn't fit the emotionally immature picture that we often assume in Snape's character. Further, if Snape is on the Bad side, there's no way such an immature character would fool DD for so long. And if he's on the Good side, then there's no way DD would have trusted him to such a great extent at the end of HBP if he thought him immature.
Of course, he's had three huge examples of loosing his temper in a big way, but two of them were at particularly stressful and dangerous times, and the pensieve scene was a particularly strong example of invasion of privacy.
Otherwise, the evidence for emotional immaturity is primarily found in the way he talks to his students. There's probably an assumption among most that anyone who would talk that way must be emotionally immature, but I'm not so certain of that, particularly as I recall several people that I've known that talked that way. I think there can be other explanations for that kind of communication style. Of course, I figure it's a lost cause trying to convince anyone of that except people who already know and enjoy people that talk that way...
TheSaint - May 13, 2006 1:03 pm (#2142 of 2969)
Also of note, there is a mention in there of the “sibling rivalry” between Snape and Harry that rambkowalczyk brought up.
See...I always had the impression the sibling rivaly was between James and Snape. Kind of like the illegitamte half brother...ala King Arthur and Mordred. I always wondered about James' comment about Snape 'existing.'
I have to wonder if Harry's break through of Snape's defences during Occulemency lessons was meant to happen. Is Harry that great a Legilemens or did Snape slip up...or let down his defences purposely?
winlia - May 13, 2006 2:10 pm (#2143 of 2969)
Wynnleaf
Regarding Snape's seeming lack of emotional maturity...
If we accept that Snape is partially responsible for the Potter's deaths because he reported the prophecy, then it follows that Snape's life has been consumed (to his detriment) with trying to put it right. If James had listened to his advice, the Potters might still be alive and Snape wouldn't be in this horrible double-spy predicament. That's huge incentive for Snape to resent both James and Harry. (Had Harry never been conceived, Snape might be better off. Or maybe he'd just be indebted to Neville.)
I think Snape reverts to childish behavior regarding Harry, not because he doesn't know any better, but because he has no other outlet for the resentment he feels. And the fact that Snape got himself into this predicament and Harry is blameless just makes it worse.
Snape will probably have his moment of glory in the end, but he's paid horribly for his prophecy mistake and will probably pay with his life before the end of 7. I hope not, but I think so.
wynnleaf - May 13, 2006 2:32 pm (#2144 of 2969)
Edited May 13, 2006 3:37 pm
winlia,
I agree with you in part. I don't think we can say that Snape's continued motivation toward defeating LV lies in the distant past. He would have had plenty of reason to develop a lot more reasons since the Potter's deaths. The situation with LV targeting the Potters appears to have lead him back to DD and a desire to defeat LV, but it doesn't necessarily follow that this continue to be his primary reason.
However, I agree that his hatred of Harry is likely rooted in the past and resentment not just of various and sundry bullying by James, but in particular his feeling that James' "arrogance" lead to the Potters deaths.
But Snape was stuck between LV and the good side as soon as he decided to leave LV -- and would have had almost the same predicament even if he had decided to oppose LV for some completely other reason. You don't just leave LV, whatever the reasons are. So his only real option was to spy for DD. In fact, one could argue that he could have felt some gratitude toward Harry's part in the Potter's deaths, since it lead to Snape's getting a sort of reprieve from LV for 10-12 years. But I don't think his hatred of Harry lies in Harry's part in LV's fall (or rise), but more likely for his part in Lily's death.
In the situation current to the books, Snape probably has some ongoing motivations to continue to feed his hatred of Harry -- not just Harry 's part in the tragedies or reminders of the past.
I don't personally agree with the sibling rivalry part. We aren't shown much about DD and Snape's relationship, but it is almost certainly as old as Harry and far beyond employer/employee. We don't know how much is father/son or mentoring, or friendship. But it's almost certainly very different from Harry's relationship with DD. And, by the way, DD might like Harry a lot, but he really spends very little time with him prior to HBP, whereas DD's apparently got a lot more direct contact with Severus. So I just don't see where the sibling rivalry thing would come about.
Further, I don't think Snape could feel a sibling rivalry thing with James, or through vicariously Harry, because we have no particular evidence that DD and James were close. Beyond the fact that DD gave James some advice and help regarding their going into hiding, we don't know that they were particularly close at all. Certainly, James did not try to use DD as a secret keeper. James was not like Harry and, among other things, had no need to look for a father figure in his life, like Harry and perhaps Severus do.
I was interested in the quote below by Alan Rickman. I know he's got at least some input from JKR on the character. We readers tend to assume that Severus' hatred of Harry is very strong and something he must focus on a lot, since he's apparently trying every single class meeting to be mean to Harry (we don't know this, it just seems like it).
"I think at heart Snape is basically quite an insecure person, he’s always longing to be something else that people will really respect like a black magician not just a school master. That's why he envies the more popular and successful boys like Harry. He does have a positive side though, even though Harry's a thorn in his side he doesn't let it worry him too much."
I struck me that Rickman sees Snape as disliking Harry, but not particularly wallowing in hate for Harry. Rickman doesn't play Snape as having this overwhelming dislike of Harry and constantly attempting to be mean to him. He does play him as sort of enjoying putting Harry down and assuming Harry is arrogant and always up to no good. Of course, we don't know how much is pure actor and director interpretation, and how much influence may have come from JKR.
winlia - May 13, 2006 2:58 pm (#2145 of 2969)
Wynnleaf
Pretty much anything Alan Rickman says or does is fine by me.
I see what you mean, but I do think that the prophecy mistake would continue to rankle. I see Snape as someone who dislikes making mistakes (fit's in with Rickman's comment about insecurity), and I don't think he would appreciate Harry as a constant reminder.
As for spying, didn't it appear that he had some choice at the end of GoF? I imagine LV gets everyone he targets in the end (except he won't get Harry, of course), but Snape may have preferred taking his chances without spying.
Soul Search - May 13, 2006 3:17 pm (#2146 of 2969)
winlia, I don't think Snape had much of a choice at the end of GoF. He either (pretended) to go back to Voldemort, or Voldemort would have hunted him down like Kakaroff. His only other choice would have been to go into deep hiding.
Solitaire - May 13, 2006 4:44 pm (#2147 of 2969)
If James had listened to his advice, the Potters might still be alive
If you are referring to the suggestion that James not use Sirius as the Secret Keeper, well ... he didn't, did he? He used Peter Pettigrew. Or are you referring to some other advice?
Solitaire
Magic Words - May 13, 2006 4:55 pm (#2148 of 2969)
"We aren't shown much about DD and Snape's relationship, but it is almost certainly as old as Harry and far beyond employer/employee. We don't know how much is father/son or mentoring, or friendship. But it's almost certainly very different from Harry's relationship with DD. And, by the way, DD might like Harry a lot, but he really spends very little time with him prior to HBP, whereas DD's apparently got a lot more direct contact with Severus. So I just don't see where the sibling rivalry thing would come about." -Wynnleaf
We know that DD "cares about" Harry (too much, he says in OotP) and he "trusts" Snape. We never get any indication that he cares for Snape beyond appreciating his role in the struggle against Voldemort. If Snape was in fact looking for a father/son relationship with DD, I'm sure it would rankle that he's been working with DD for years, and he's trusted, yes, but that's the extent of the relationship, then along comes this Potter kid and DD immediately starts putting the rest of the world on hold to safeguard this kid's happiness (not telling him the prophecy). As far as we know, DD never did anything to show consideration for Snape's feelings the way he has Harry's. I can definitely see Snape being jealous of that, which is how I interpreted the "sibling rivalry" idea.
winlia - May 13, 2006 6:33 pm (#2149 of 2969)
Solitare,
Doesn't Snape comment somewhere that James was too arrogant to listen to advice regarding hiding? Just Snape's view, of course.
rambkowalczyk - May 13, 2006 7:07 pm (#2150 of 2969)
he had promised Snape that he wouldn't discuss his relationship with Lily Did I miss something in one of the books, or is this just a theory? Solitaire
just a theory to explain why Dumbledore didn't tell Harry the full story when Harry confronted Dumbledore about Snape. If there is a Snape Lily relationship, I don't think Snape would want Harry to know of it.
I don't personally agree with the sibling rivalry part. ... And, by the way, DD might like Harry a lot, but he really spends very little time with him prior to HBP, whereas DD's apparently got a lot more direct contact with Severus. Wynnleaf
When I talk about sibling rivalry I don't necessarily think that Snape has any conscious awareness of his jealousy or that he is actively assessing how much time Dumbledore spends with Harry compared to him. But I think Snape does place importance on where he ranks in the Order. For instance it was important to Snape to let Sirius know that he was putting his life in danger while Sirius was housecleaning. Since Snape actually brings this up in front of Harry and further accuses Sirius of dodging responsibility by going to the train station with Harry, one wonders if subconsciously Snape is actually seeking Harry's approval--that is he is jealous of Harry's affection (respect)to Sirius.
Since Snape does place importance to the fact that he is doing important things in the order, he would be definately jealous if he (Snape) was not given the information that Harry was given in the sixth book. Although it is reasonable to assume Snape might know of the horcruxes, does he know there are seven. Did he know the ring was a horcrux? If Dumbledore hasn't told Snape as much as he told Harry, isn't it possible that he might feel that he was being taken for granted? That would be another possible reason why there was hatred on his face when he killed Dumbledore.
I don't think Snape could feel a sibling rivalry thing with James, or through vicariously Harry, because we have no particular evidence that DD and James were close. Wynnleaf
The jealousy is on the part of Snape only and it is due to his perceptions than hard fact. We know Snape and James hated each other similar to the way Harry and Draco hate each other as Dumbledore says this. I am making the assumption that when James was caught bullying, Snape would feel that James' punishment was lighter than if he were caught doing the same thing. I base this on McGonagall's recollection of James and Sirius trouble making (in POA)because she says this in a fond way.
Saracene - May 13, 2006 8:42 pm (#2151 of 2969)
I don't really think that emotional immaturity and ability to be an excellent Occlumens/spy are mutually exclusive. I think that Snape's strength, as an Occlumens and a spy, is his ability to repress and hide his real feelings and thoughts. But this ability does not necessarily make him emotionally mature.
Regarding Alan Rickman's quote, I find it interesting that he mentions absolutely nothing about Snape's hatred of Harry's father, which we can safely say is a canon fact, but says instead that Snape simply envies the successful boys like Harry. He makes it sound as if there's really nothing personal about Snape's distaste for Harry, which IMO goes completely against the picture the books paint.
"If James had listened to his advice, the Potters might still be alive and Snape wouldn't be in this horrible double-spy predicament. That's huge incentive for Snape to resent both James and Harry."
Yeah, I agree. Blaming James for his "arrogance" would help relieve Snape of his own feelings of guilt and he'd find some comfort in it.
Solitaire - May 13, 2006 9:29 pm (#2152 of 2969)
If James had listened to his advice, the Potters might still be alive
As I said earlier, James did use someone other than Sirius ... and the Potters are still dead. Snape has long known that it was not Sirius who betrayed the Potters, so that old argument is specious.
Solitaire
mooncalf - May 13, 2006 9:47 pm (#2153 of 2969)
Saracene, I agree with you that emotional immaturity and excellent occlumency skills are not mutually exclusive. JKR's characters are typically far more complex than that. We all know people who are mature in some ways and not in others. Snape clearly has issues, but that doesn't mean he's good for nothing! :-)
winlia - May 14, 2006 8:07 am (#2154 of 2969)
mooncalf, I agree with you and Saracene that is it possible for people to be mature in some ways and not in others, but the contrast in Snape is pretty dramatic. Even aside from the spying, he's leading a pretty sophisticated life as a Hogwarts Head-of-House, and yet he behaves like a first-year sometimes. I think that's the way JKR intends him to be, but in real life, I doubt there are many people in whom the contrast is that stark.
wynnleaf - May 14, 2006 8:34 am (#2155 of 2969)
Edited May 14, 2006 9:36 am
If James had listened to his advice, the Potters might still be alive
As I said earlier, James did use someone other than Sirius ... and the Potters are still dead. Snape has long known that it was not Sirius who betrayed the Potters, so that old argument is specious.
Well, it's a little different from that. We don't know for certain that the suspicions of James friends was from a spy's (Snape's?) input. When McGonagall, Hagrid and Fudge told Rosmerta the story, McGonagall said that DD was very concerned that someone "close to the Potters" was giving information on their whereabouts to LV. Apparently DD must have shared this concern with James, because he offered to be the Secret Keeper for the Potters, but James refused and seemed to have gone on at length to DD about his trust in Sirius. However, DD's suspicions (which may have come via a spy) did not focus specifically on Sirius, but close friends of the Potters in general.
James obviously did choose to trust both Sirius and Peter Pettigrew, in spite of DD's concerns and in spite of DD's offer to be the Secret Keeper.
Since McGonagall, Hagrid and Fudge all seemed well aware of these circumstances, and were unhesitatingly sharing it with Rosmerta, I think we can safely assume that Snape also knew that DD had shared his concerns with James and offered to be the Secret Keeper.
Snape (assuming he's on the good side) has obviously trusted DD with his life on an ongoing basis. He said that James was too arrogant to believe that one of his friends might have betrayed him. I can see why he'd think James' actions particularly arrogant, to refuse DD as Secret Keeper even in the light of suspicions of his friends.
Indeed, in spite of DD's concerns and even with the offer from an extremely trustworthy and powerful person like DD to be Secret Keeper, James chose to put not only his life, but also that of his wife and child on the line for his belief that none of his friends would betray him. Since Snape never thought much of any of the four anyway, it's natural that he'd consider this the height of arrogance.
One might assume Snape would only look back on this action of James with disdain, but it instead fuels his hatred. And that means that he takes this action of James' very personally.
As regards the immaturity thing -- yes there are definitely things that Snape does and says that show immaturity. The extremes are either unrealistic as winlia says, or there may be more to what Snape says and how he acts than we yet know.
I do think the Harry-centric mode of the narration changes are view. The Shrieking Shack chapter of POA makes Snapes actions and words appear over the top and immature. In fact, his words and actions are completely understandable for what the character knows at the time, and for what he thinks, mistakenly, is going on in the Shack.
Fawkes Egg - May 14, 2006 9:55 am (#2156 of 2969)
I have to wonder what it is about Snape that makes Dumbledore and Voldemort trust him, or appear to trust him. It can't be just his skills at Occlumency. Wouldn't Dumbledore and Voldemort both sense, being top-notch Legilimens themselves, that Occlumency was being used against them? Wouldn't they be suspicious as to why?
I find the whole Dumbledore-Snape-Voldemort interaction fascinating: it seesm to me that each of them is playing a very long game. In Voldemort's case, the object is total dominion over the WW and immortality. For Dumbledore, the object is ensuring that the WW (and Harry especially, as he pretty much admited in OotP) is free of such horrors as Voldemort. For both of them , Snape is an important player, if only because each side will think the other is being hoodwinked by him.
And for Snape? I suspect that the object of Snape's game is coming out ahead with his hide intact, regardless of who wins the war. Very, very Slytherin indeed!
JM2K!
On a lighter aside, whilst heading out to watch some birds today I passed a signpost pointing to...Snape!
Ann - May 14, 2006 10:12 am (#2157 of 2969)
Edited May 14, 2006 11:18 am
Solitaire: "James did use someone other than Sirius ... and the Potters are still dead. Snape has long known that it was not Sirius who betrayed the Potters, so that old argument is specious."
I agree with wynnleaf that it was not so much Sirius as any one of the three other Marauders. From Dumbledore's information (probably from Snape), one of them was likely to be a spy, and it's obvious from his apology in the Shrieking Shack that Sirius (and perhaps James as well) thought it was likely to be Remus. Peter may have helped foster this impression--I suspect he and Remus were not particularly close, since in a sense they were both rivals for the friendship of the more socially adept pair of their foursome. Remus was a werewolf, which might be seen as making it more likely he could turn to the Dark.
I'm sort of surprised that Snape didn't assume the traitor was Remus as well, given his experience with the werewolf. But he seems to have been secure enough to blame the proper person for that--Sirius. In fact, it may be wrong to accuse Snape of childishness for not being able to get over his dislike of the Marauders. James and Sirius (by changing Secret-Keepers, if not by actually betraying the Potters) and Peter were not just tormentors during his adolescence, but have made his adulthood miserable, too. If what Dumbledore said was true, Snape must surely have been anguished by the Potters' deaths. After realizing what he'd done, he did everything possible to save them, probably at great risk to himself. And then James disregarded his warnings and got not only himself, but Lily killed. Snape knows that on the deepest level, he is responsibile for that, and it must be wrenching to know that it might have been prevented. It's not childish to dislike the arrogant attitude that brought on the horrible consequences of his bad decision.
His treatment of Harry is horrible and abusive, but if he loved Lily, one can sort of understand it. I agree with those who think that his questions to Harry in that first Potions class were to see if there was any of Lily in him besides his eyes. But his evaluation is clearly distorted by Harry's fame, which has given him all the credit for Lily's sacrifice. Because Harry is famous and valued by everyone (at first, even Draco wants to befriend him), Snape sees him as James. One can see why Harry, neglected and abused by the Dursleys, enjoys that initial fame, but Snape doesn't realize quite where he's coming from. After giving him a "chance" to show that he's Lily's son, too, Snape evidently decided that Harry was all Potter, and his subsequent experiences of the risks Harry takes, seen through that Snape filter, would tend to confirm his view.
He fails to notice (usually because he has incomplete information) that the risks Harry takes and the rules he breaks are for a higher (if sometime mistaken) purpose than his father's. This is shown quite clearly in OotP, where Sirius tells Harry that reckless breaking of the rules is what makes it fun. Harry's dislike for Snape, particularly in OotP, and Draco, in HBP, only lead him to misguided actions, which further justify Snape's view of him. The eye contact necessary for those horrible Occlumency lessons must have been excruciating for Snape.
JKR has really done a masterful job of setting these two men, who in reality are quite similar in many ways (and particularly their relationship to Dumbledore), against each other.
wynnleaf - May 14, 2006 10:58 am (#2158 of 2969)
Ann,
Until you post I never consider something. If Snape cared a lot for Lily (even friendship), it could have been extremely galling to here Harry spoken of as having "defeated" LV, when Snape knew that it wasn't really Harry that did it, but Lily's sacrifice. I'd thought before that Snape could have resented Harry because Lily made that sacrifice, but how much more so to hear people praise Harry for that, when it was really Lily and it meant her death.
Solitaire - May 14, 2006 1:38 pm (#2159 of 2969)
Edited May 14, 2006 2:40 pm
I have a hard time accepting James, Sirius and Remus as responsible for making Snape miserable as an adult. They may have tormented him as an adolescent (although I still believe Snape gave as good as he got), but Snape is an adult now and has been for many years. At some point, people have to start taking responsibility for their own actions and attitudes. I think it is long past time for Snape to realize that he and he alone is responsible for his life now. If Snape is going to torment Harry, he needs to accept that he is a miserable, rotten human being who is tormenting Harry for his own pleasure and not for something that happened years ago.
BTW, I realize most people don't agree with me. That's okay. I don't mind being alone in disliking Snape, his attitudes, and his behavior.
Solitaire
wynnleaf - May 14, 2006 1:49 pm (#2160 of 2969)
Edited May 14, 2006 3:15 pm
Solitaire, understanding the reasons behind one's actions, and taking responsibility for one's own actions are not mutually exclusive things, you know.
I did not notice anyone saying recently that the Maruaders were responsible for Snape's actions. But perhaps you were simply being rhetorical.
I just realized something else about the "arrogance" of James and Sirius that I'd never thought of before. The whole reason they chose Peter was because they figured that no one would ever suspect Peter would be chosen. Why not?? Wasn't he one of the Marauders? Wasn't he supposed to be a good friend, too? But Sirius and James thought no one would ever think weak, timid Peter would be given any important secrets. After all, why would anyone expect them to trust their secrets to weak Peter? If you think about it, within a supposedly very close circle of friends, that's a very arrogant viewpoint and pretty clearly shows that for all their inclusiveness of Peter in their group, Sirius and James actually looked down on him. But they were wrong, and he turned out to be just the person that LV would get information from.
Soul Search - May 14, 2006 2:24 pm (#2161 of 2969)
wynnleaf, good points about Wormtail.
I wonder if I am doing the same thing: writing Wormtail off as being too weak to play any role in book seven?
Solitaire - May 14, 2006 3:46 pm (#2162 of 2969)
Edited May 14, 2006 4:47 pm
The whole reason they chose Peter was because they figured that no one would ever suspect Peter would be chosen.
Do remember that Sirius made that comment when he was in a state of incredibly deep anger and pain, Wynnleaf. Peter betrayed not only the Potters but also Sirius. He robbed Sirius of twelve years of his life and stamped him a murderous traitor in the eyes of the world. It must have been incredibly painful to discover one of the people he had trusted most in the world could so easily sell out James and Lily and then turn around and betray him, as well.
I can more easily acquit Sirius of irrational behavior than I can anyone else of his age group, including Snape. After all, none of them had been incarcerated in Azkaban, a place that is known to drive most people crazy. And Sirius had those twelve years to let that hurt, anger, and sense of betrayal fester and brew. It's little wonder he exploded in anger at Peter.
Solitaire
winlia - May 14, 2006 4:38 pm (#2163 of 2969)
wynnleaf
Thanks for the info, a couple of posts back, regarding the Potter's secret keeper. I really must reread these books (yet again).
Solitaire - May 14, 2006 5:44 pm (#2164 of 2969)
Above, I said, "I can more easily acquit Sirius of irrational behavior ..." I should have said that I can more easily forgive his behavior, given the circumstances that precipitated it.
Solitaire
Ann - May 14, 2006 9:06 pm (#2165 of 2969)
Edited May 14, 2006 10:15 pm
Solitaire, I'm not saying Snape's treatment of Harry is acceptable; obviously it isn't. I'm saying it is understandable, and not necessarily childish. The principle crime he accuses James and Sirius and Harry of is arrogance--destructive arrogance and disregard for the rules that gets themselves and others hurt. This is something that people of all ages can find enraging.
Sirius tried to murder Snape at 16, and in a way that would have had horrible consequences for Lupin as well. I don't think it's childish to despise his actions. We love Sirius because we see how much he loves Harry, and how much he loved James, and because he's been unjustly imprisoned for a crime he didn't commit. We see things through Harry's eyes, so he's a sympathetic character. But obviously, to Snape, the murder attempt outweighs everything. No one's ever tried to murder me (possibly because no one on the Lexicon knows where I live), but I think I'd resent it very deeply, too. I can imagine hating the perpetrator. (One could mention parallels in recent international politics here, but I'll refrain.)
James's arrogance is also obvious, certainly in the Pensieve scene. The idea that it's justifiable to attack Snape just because he exists is despicable, as Harry realizes. The recklessness is less obvious, since it comes in the form of disregarding good advice: Snape's advice. Snape, feeling terribly guilty for setting Voldemort after the Potters, gives them, through Dumbledore, information that would save them: Don't trust any of your close friends, because one of them is a spy for Voldemort. James arrogantly refuses to believe that one of his friends could betray him, and ignoring Snape's warning, precipitates a situation leading to his own death and Lily's. They're all in their early 20s at the time. Snape must take some responsibility for these deaths, and if James had been more willing to listen to reason, he would not have to bear this guilt. It is understandable that he resents this. (Obviously, neither Snape nor James are responsible for their deaths: Voldemort is, and Wormtail is also far guiltier than either.)
Snape's conclusions about Harry are less justified. Harry, when Snape first encounters him, is famous for something he didn't do and looks just like his dad. He has also heard from the Weasleys that Snape is predisposed to prejudice against Gryffindors. And he'd had that sharp reaction in his scar, by coincidence just as he looked at Snape (who was talking to Quirrell). Lots of reasons for them to dislike one another. Then, when Snape fires a string of Potions questions at him, Harry quickly gets fed up and, rather uncharacteristically, mouths off. ("Why don't you ask Hermione?") This is enough to confirm Snape in his suspicion that Harry is just like his father, and subsequent rule breaking and running his friends into danger can be seen as further justification for his conclusions, particularly in 5th year, where his lack of faith in Snape's ability to handle the situation (he doesn't even think of him, and then doesn't trust him to pass on the message) leads him to drag his friends off to the Ministry, where they all might have been killed, and Sirius is killed. I don't say that the way Snape treats Harry as a result of these conclusions is justified, but there is evidence for his conclusions.
Solitaire - May 15, 2006 6:11 am (#2166 of 2969)
I've often wondered ... did Sirius really intend for Snape to die, or did he intend for him to be bitten by Remus and turn into a Werewolf himself? I'll agree that neither option says too much about Sirius's character at that time, although I can't help thinking there was more backstory to that mutual hatred than simply Sirius and James being bullies.
I've often wondered whether Snape lured Regulus into the DEs as a kind of payback for that episode. What better way to hurt Sirius than to turn his brother into the thing he hated?
Solitaire
wynnleaf - May 15, 2006 6:11 am (#2167 of 2969)
Edited May 15, 2006 7:18 am
Ann,
That was an excellent post.
I'm currently reading COS to my 1st grader and last night we were reading the part where Harry, Ron and Hermione plot to steal ingredients of polyjuice potion from Snape's private stores. I was glad, as I read this to my daughter, that she'd already seen the movie because it gave me an opportunity to point out aspects of the story that a first time reader who had not seen the movie might miss.
All of Harry's interactions with Snape are written from Harry's point of view and this was no exception. In that chapter, the reader is made to view Snape as a Bad Man, the Enemy that HRH have to get past in order to get the necessary ingredients to do their Heroic Deed and get the Truth about Draco being the instigator of opening the Chamber of Secrets. However, once we know what's really going on it should be easy to see that HRH have taken their childish feud with Malfoy and in their willingness to believe absolutely any evil of Draco, determine that he simply must be the one that opened the Chamber. So what do they do? They decide to brew a dangerous potion with which to impersonate other students. In order to do this, they put together a plan to cause dangerous explosions in the Potions classroom which injure many completely innocent students (not HRH of course), and then they sneak into the teacher's storeroom to steal private supplies. Later, they put their own health at risk through the potion, they drug two other students, and then slip into another House's common room to interrogate another student under false pretenses. And all of this was completely unnecessary as Draco was not involved with the Chamber at all.
I asked my 1st grader, as well as my 5th grader (also listening) what they thought of a kid in their class doing that kind of thing and when put that way, they clearly saw that what HRH did was actually a terrible thing to do and any teacher would have plenty of cause to be utterly furious with them.
Now, Snape didn't catch HRH red-handed. But he knew that they were somehow responsible. He realized they were most likely responsible for the explosion and later he realized they'd stolen from his stores. He eventually figured out that they may have even been brewing polyjuice potion.
My point is that as each year goes by, Snape would be seeing, at least from his point of view, plenty of reasons to believe that Harry was in fact just as arrogant as James ever was, just as much a trouble maker, just as much convinced that the rules don't apply to him, and so on. And Snape doesn't get to see what we do -- more of what's really going on with Harry and some of his motivations and some of the extenuating circumstances. But he does get to see DD and McGonagall handing out points to Harry and the trio basically getting away with anything.
Funny, the way the end of OOTP is written, the points McGonagall gives HRH at the end seem fitting. But when I really think about how unnecessary their trip to the MOM was, and that people were killed and injured as a result, the giving of those points seems more ludicrous than anything.
None of this makes it "okay" for Snape to be mean to Harry. But given that Snape speaks in a naturally sarcastic tone in the first place, it's not surprising that he'd ratchet up the sarcasm and malice toward a student who he knows breaks rules right and left, endangers other students, lies to him, and who the child's head of house and the headmaster appear to give a free rein.
Solitaire - May 15, 2006 6:20 am (#2168 of 2969)
And all of this was completely unnecessary as Draco was not involved with the Chamber at all.
They didn't know that at the time, did they? And Draco seemed kind of cocky and know-it-all about what was happening. No wonder they suspected him. I'll admit I do not like the Trio's "ends-justifies-the-means" behavior, but things often seem to work that way in the Wizarding World, from what I see. Besides, no one else was doing anything to stop the attacks, and Harry was being blamed for it all. In his place, I probably would resort to extreme behavior, too. And btw, it was a Malfoy (Lucius) who incited the trouble by planting the Diary with Ginny ... wasn't it?
Solitaire
wynnleaf - May 15, 2006 6:32 am (#2169 of 2969)
Edited May 15, 2006 7:34 am
Just because the kid you dislike in school is a cocky know-it-all, and just because you don't like people being suspicious of you, doesn't mean it makes any kind of sense to 1. steal from a teacher 2. set off dangerous explosions and injure innocent students 3. brew a dangerous and controlled substance and take it 4. drug your fellow (innocent) students 5. impersonate other students and 6. question another student under false pretenses.
Don't you think that's an awful lot of mayhem in response to what they see as the problem? They assume no one is trying to do anything about it. After all, they never ask do they?
And Lucius being guilty of planting the diary doesn't make Draco guilty, any more than James being a bully makes Harry a bully.
Ann - May 15, 2006 9:41 am (#2170 of 2969)
Edited May 15, 2006 10:50 am
Solitaire, you surprise me. "I'll admit I do not like the Trio's "ends-justifies-the-means" behavior, but things often seem to work that way in the Wizarding World, from what I see."
The wizarding world seems to work rather similarly to ours, meaning that people do all sorts of wrong and hurtful things under the guise of noble ends. We all know where that road paved with good intentions can lead. I, frankly, don't think JKR is going to let Harry & Co. get away with it. Awarding Neville Longbottom those cup-winning points that first year for standing up to the trio is a huge clue to what she sees as real courage. Dumbledore rewards physical courage, of course; he's training soldiers for battle. And Harry's determination to save the stone is laudable. But if Neville had succeeded in stopping them, what would have happened? Harry and Ron wouldn't have been injured; Dumbledore would have arrived to find Quirrell still unable to get the stone; and he might have been able to save Quirrell when Voldemort fled.
Interestingly, Harry's most noble actions have frequently had this effect: letting Wormtail live, sharing the Triwizard victory with Cedric, going to save Sirius, even obeying Dumbledore's orders in HBP. Interestingly, it's in CoS (where, as wynnleaf points out, the trio has in some ways been the most ruthless) that Harry is the most unambiguously heroic--he kills the dragon and saves the princess, and bags his first Horcrux by showing loyalty to Dumbledore.
But adulthood is largely the ability to realize that other people see things differently than we do and aren't necessarily wrong--that people we don't like aren't always evil, and that people we do like aren't always good. Harry's reaction to the Pensieve scene is the beginning of this journey, and he's going to have to complete it (for literary, if not logistical reasons) before he's truly developed as a character sufficiently to fight Voldemort.
Solitaire - May 15, 2006 11:36 am (#2171 of 2969)
I agree with everything you say, Ann. Like I said, I do not like ends-justify-the-means actions, and I like to think I would never act that way myself. I suppose, though, that I really do put my "willing suspension of disbelief" to work and am able to thoroughly identify with Harry. He feels desperate, and desperate people sometimes resort to desperate and unwise measures.
You have cited several "ends-justfiy-the-means" situations, so I think I am correct in saying that the philosophy is frequently adopted. I never said it was right ... just that it was used a lot. The Trio bends and breaks rules frequently. It might be said to be their modus operandi. Sometimes things work out (Ginny is saved from the Basilisk because Harry and Ron were running around the castle in defiance of the rules; they overhear what has happened and decided to take action), and sometimes they do not (Harry & Co. charge off to the DoM, and Sirius winds up dead).
Perhaps I am in a mood to be sympathetic to Harry's transgressions right now, because I am in a situation where I feel I have lost control and no one will listen to the truth. I apologize for having offended anyone.
Solitaire
winlia - May 15, 2006 1:42 pm (#2172 of 2969)
Solitare, Ann, and wynnleaf,
I thoroughly enjoyed all your posts. Fiction involving kids often revolves around a stunning lack of supervision. Much has been written about one or both parents being deceased or "away" in the books, movies, and TV shows about childhood adventures. (In fact, the only exception to this rule that readily comes to my mind--I'm sure there are others--is Timmy constantly falling in the well, or some such thing. Where were his parents? How did they justify leaving the dog in charge? Anyway...)
I don't think we're meant to look too closely at Harry's daring and lack of judgment, or I should say, failure to anticipate the consequences. I'm sure if we looked closely, we'd decide that his best course of action in many of the situations would have been to tell an adult. Nor would DD and the others have let him run loose in the real world. But if Harry and Co. didn't take liberties, there would be no books. I think we're meant to see him they way Solitare sees him, not entirely blameless, but with his heart firmly in the right place. Harry's not trying to hurt anyone, at least not until the end of book 6.
I think it's different with Sirius and James; we're meant to see them as arrogant. The Worst Memory and the luring of Snape to the shack are very focused. There are some mitigating factors. James outgrew it, or started to, poor guy. Sirius is a sympathetic character given Azkaban and his death. But overall, their arrogance is meant to register with us; Harry's is more defused and some of it exists just to move the plot along.
Solitare, Sorry to hear of your troubles. Hope it works out.
Die Zimtzicke - May 15, 2006 2:59 pm (#2173 of 2969)
We had to see James being an arrogant jerk to Snape because he had to be an arrogant jerk with someone, to get Harry OFF the idea that his father was a saint, in my opinion. (This is probably because I wish he'd pay more attention to the fact that he is his mother's son. She's the one who died to save him after all.) Snape was the most logical choice for that kind of memory, to bring Harry to that kind of realization. He had idealized James, and ideals are something you can never attain/sustain as I see it. There's always a catch. Snape was the perfect person to bring that home to him, and it was then confirmed, gently, but definitely confirmed by Remus and Sirius.
Ann - May 15, 2006 3:35 pm (#2174 of 2969)
Edited May 15, 2006 4:38 pm
Solitaire, my sympathy on your situation. Losing control of a situation and being unable to get anyone to listen can be hellish.
I wasn't remotely offended, just surprised. I thought that, as a teacher, you'd see that Snape's opinion of Harry as a rule-breaker had some substance behind it. Snape is a horrible teacher, but he's not quite the monster Harry assumes him to be. Kids, as you know, can be absolutely ruthless when they dislike a teacher, and Snape is, even without his personality, the sort of teacher kids are prejudiced against at first sight and tend to attack as nastily as they can. Harry absolutely disregards him from the outset--dismisses him as not worth listening to or learning from--and Snape reacts in extremely counterproductive ways. But a reaction of some sort is not unwarranted; it's the bitter, retaliatory aspect of it that's wrong.
I think winlia is right: we're meant to read these books from Harry's point of view. But Harry's growing up, and his point of view is becoming more generous and adult, and I think he (and the reader) is soon going to be brought around to a broader view of Snape. He's a complete caricature in PS/SS--because Harry has a childish (and inaccurate) black-and-white view of him. From PoA to GoF to OotP, were given a much more varied view of him. He's become increasingly complex and satisfying as a character as Harry matures and allows us to see more of him. But although we are now getting additional information and hints about where Snape might be coming from, Harry is holding fast to his prejudices--helped by the author, who is I'm sure deluding Harry (and us) by what she chooses to show us. HBP is all about making us think again that Snape is the cardboard cut-out black hat that he seemed in PS/SS. Book 7, I predict, will be largely about Harry (and us) learning to get past those prejudices. Not that Snape is going to adopt Harry or anything, but they're going to have to work together. Closely.
Okay. Back to the depressing stack of final exams. (Yuck!)
winlia - May 15, 2006 7:09 pm (#2175 of 2969)
I'm reading SS to my 8-year-old son (again, not that I'm complaining) and got to Harry's first potions class. I think JKR exaggerated some of Snape's nastiness so that the younger readers understand what's going on. One or two nasty remarks, and a young kid may not understand that Harry's being singled out and that Snape dislikes him vehemently. (The way it's written, Snape's teaching career would be short-lived in the real world. I can't imagine that the school or the parents would tolerate such remarks, especially directed at a student who is only eleven.) JKR did the same thing with Sirius' death--she mentions several times how horrible Harry feels and how deeply he's mourning. An adult wouldn't need Snape's nastiness or Harry grief spelled out so explicitly.
Solitaire - May 15, 2006 8:49 pm (#2176 of 2969)
his best course of action in many of the situations would have been to tell an adult
I agree. Unfortunately, the adults in Harry's world are not always available or able to help. Think about it ...
In PS/SS, the kids do seek out Dumbledore but are told by McGonagall that he has gone to London to the Ministry of Magic. McGonagall--whom I truly do love and think is a wonderful teacher--blows off the kids' concern and shoos them outside. They take action only after they honestly believe all other avenues have been cut off.
In CoS, Dumbledore has been placed on suspension and none of the heads of houses--McGonagall, Sprout, Snape, or Flitwick--seem to have a clue what to do. Lockhart's about as helpful as a water pistol in a forest fire; his response is simply to flee the castle and leave Ginny to her fate. Harry and Ron finally decide to take matters into their own hands when they realize that if they do not, Ginny is as good as dead.
In PoA it is Dumbledore himself who has Hermione use the Time Turner, so that Buckbeak (condemned to death) and Sirius (due to have his soul sucked out of him) both can be set free ... much to the irritation of the Malfoys and Snape.
In GoF Harry must contend against unfair criticism and slander when he is accused of entering the contest against the rules. Even his best friend turns on him for a while. Throughout the story Rita makes his life a living hell. In the end, when he tries to make people understand what has happened, he is branded a lunatic (possibly even Cedric's murderer) and slandered continually in the Daily Prophet. So much for trying to tell the truth.
In OotP, Harry must contend with the painful incursions Voldemort has been making into his mind. Dumbledore believes him, which would probably have been enough to sustain him, had it not been for Dumbledore's distant demeanor. Instead of trying to help Harry understand what is happening to him, he cuts off all personal contact, leaving Harry angry and hurt. Then Umbridge cuts Harry off from Sirius, one of his few comforts. At his darkest hour, all of the adults Harry trusts (Dumbledore, McGonagall, Hagrid) have been sent away from Hogwarts. He is left to the cold comfort of Snape ... and forced to trust him. Sadly, Snape's actions can be interpreted two ways--helpful or obstructive. Given the way Snape has treated Harry from day one, is it little wonder Harry has no faith in Snape?
Harry feels alone, except for his friends, and he feels he is the only one who can save Sirius. Yes, he was wrong, and had he listened to Dumbledore, Sirius might be alive. But Dumbledore mishandled the situation, I think. He didn't help Harry understand, did he?
I'll stop there. I just think that, while Harry frequently did the wrong thing, I think he always acted in good faith. What's more, he generally took this action only when he felt he had been abandoned by those adults who should have been there to help him. Yes, I confess I do see things as Harry sees them ... but then I think that is how we are supposed to see them.
Solitaire
wynnleaf - May 16, 2006 5:31 am (#2177 of 2969)
Edited May 16, 2006 6:34 am
First, I agree with Ann's last post completely.
Solitaire said: I'll stop there. I just think that, while Harry frequently did the wrong thing, I think he always acted in good faith. What's more, he generally took this action only when he felt he had been abandoned by those adults who should have been there to help him. Yes, I confess I do see things as Harry sees them ... but then I think that is how we are supposed to see them.
There's a difference between what the reader sees and knows (all of Harry's pov), and what characters know. Snape, as I mentioned before, doesn't know all that Harry is experiencing, his motivations, etc. And the way you list events of the books, it makes it sound like HRH only act when adults aren't available or aren't responding (you may not have meant that, but it seemed like that from your listing). But many of their beliefs about situations are completely erroneous and they act on those beliefs -- for instance that Snape is trying to steal the philosophers stone or that Draco is opening the Chamber of Secrets. The example that I had given earlier -- of HRH's actions to question Draco in COS -- happened before DD had left Hogwarts. It didn't happen out of necessity, but because of their own assumptions that they just had to be right about Draco and that it was up to them to prove his guilt.
Following isn't about Snape specifically, but is directly related to why I take the views I do of Snape and other characters.
To address the books more broadly, I am often uncertain how to take JKR's writing. When I first read the books, I read the 1st four books almost back to back. When reading PS and COS, I was enjoying them like children's adventure books. For instance, the Dursleys were awful, but I didn't question the significance of what happened to Harry there -- as regarding the abuse and its effects, for instance. I didn't question the adults at first -- I took them purely on face value, assuming that as these were kid's books, whatever I was told was exactly what the author wanted me to believe. And I didn't question the "good" kids versus the "bad" kids. I accepted that the good kids always had mostly good reasons for what they did, and that it was okay to think the worst of the "bad" kids because they'd been set up by the author to be the "bad" guys. I didn't question the hexes, jinxes, etc. that the "good" or "bad" kids inflicted on each other because since this was a kid's book, nothing would "really" hurt anyone, right? It got dark at the end of COS, but, hey, I could deal with it and still saw it as a kid's book. The funny names of people and things, and a lot of funny dialog helped keep me thinking all was really okay -- this was just fun, right?
POA changed that for me. The evil villian turned out to have been wrongly accused and spent 12 years in a horrendous prison. The hates and grudges of adults came into play. Lupin, this guy I'd been convinced to like, acted very irresponsibly. The "cute" rat of two books turned out to be the wicked betrayer.
By GOF, I'd stopped seeing things as kid's books. We readers were lead along to like Moody, enjoy his apparent sympathy and support of Harry and even Neville, only to discover he was more evil than anyone we'd met so far other than LV. While seeing Moody as a strong "good" guy who supported Harry, I'd taken Moody's warning remarks to Snape as a "good" adult that thought of Snape as pretty slimy, even if he had saved Harry in PS. Then I find out the "Moody" that made those veiled threats was one of the most loyal DE's. Funny stuff kept happening, but Cedric's death was completely serious and LV was nothing, but dark. No, not the cardboard villian of a cartoon -- this was truly dark and evil.
By OOTP, it was clear that the "good" guys were not necessarily wearing white hats. The parent of Harry that we'd been lead to believe was all heroics and goodness, we suddenly saw in a scene for the first time and he was a bully. Sirius, the guy we'd seen as purely sympathetic before, was pressuring Harry to be James, was angry and depressed -- Sirius was not acting like a children's book character. He was acting like a real person with some major weaknesses. Umbridge's actions had gone far beyond the ridiculous nastiness of Filch (threats of dungeon tortures, how silly), and went directly to true physical abuse. There was no kidding myself about whether to take it seriously or not. Nope, it was really abuse and couldn't be hidden under the "only a kid's book" notion, like the first book was able to do with the Dursley's.
Now I find that I see all of the books, even the early ones, as much more serious and dark. But that leaves me still in a lot of quandaries about how to take the actions of various characters. For instance, Fred and George are clearly written for us readers to really enjoy. But they seriously injured Montague. So what if he was a "bad" guy? I can't take the kid's book idea anymore that some kids are just "bad" guys because HRH see them that way. Because it's not really a superficial kid's book. So what if Montague was being an unpleasant Slytherin? Did he deserve what happened to him? No. Should Fred and George have gotten away with it scot free? No. But they did.
I can no longer tell how JKR want's us to take things. I don't see how we can sort incidences into different categories and say "this nasty remark is serious and means something terrible about this character," but on the other hand say, "this terrible action isn't really bad because in the world of these kid's books this stuff happens all the time and it's okay."
My tendency now is to assume that everything that happens, whether it seems funny or serious, should still be considered seriously for it's impact on the other characters and what it reveals about a character. JKR might not mean it that way, but there's just far too much that's dark, in depth, and deadly serious about the books to do otherwise.
Oh, by the way, I do think these books are written primarily for children - older children, but yes I still think they're the primary audience. I just don't think they can be read like typical children's books, even the really good children's books.
Catherine - May 16, 2006 6:23 am (#2178 of 2969)
Edited May 16, 2006 7:24 am
Snape is a horrible teacher, but he's not quite the monster Harry assumes him to be.--Ann
Harry, in my opnion, is quite justified in seeing Snape as monstrous.
Snape initiated Harry's response to him. I strongly disagree with Ann that Harry was determined to disregard Snape. Snape was staring at Harry with dislike at the opening feast in SS/PS. He then ridiculed Harry at the beginning of the first Potions class. No matter what, Snape is an adult, and he "started it." Harry, in my opinion, should not be blamed for reacting negatively to a teacher who obviously loathes him. Snape's cruelty to Neville, and his meanness toward Hermione also serve to reinforce this opinion.
I am a teacher; I have taught 7th grade, all high school grades, and college. I have learned one essential fact: One gives respect in order to receive respect. While Sirius didn't quite live up to these words in regard to Kreacher, he did have a point about noticing how a man treats his inferiors, not his equals. I'm noticing Snape, and I don't like what I see.
I am not suggesting that Snape's actions toward Harry justify Harry's rule-breaking, (they don't), but at the end of the day, Snape had the responsibility to be a grown-up, and he either could not, or would not, behave as one.
Mrs Brisbee - May 16, 2006 6:45 am (#2179 of 2969)
Edited May 16, 2006 8:03 am
Well said, Catherine. I don't think we can make light of Snape having created the mistrust in the first place. Harry's mistrust of Snape is real and well placed. It is true that Harry needs to grow to see beyond it, but Snape's actions are at the heart and cause of the troubles. It is both sad and pathetic the amount of damage Snape has done.
Wynnleaf, that was also a very good post. I do think Rowling wants her readers to think about the characters' actions. Everything done by the Good Guys isn't necessarily nice and good and right, and everything done by the Bad Guys isn't Eeeeviiill! The causes that they fight for, and the means they use to achieve those ends are both important.
Magic Words - May 16, 2006 7:30 am (#2180 of 2969)
To an extend, Wynnleaf, I'd say you (and I both) had just the reaction JKR was going for - the early books are kids' books, they can be slight caricatures because they're from the point of view of a child, but as the series goes on and Harry grows up he begins to realize that the world is not black and white.
As far as the questionable actions of some "good" characters: I read this on the Forum at some point, so I apologize for taking someone else's idea and not being able to cite, but it does seem part of the culture of the wizarding world to accept things that we Muggles wouldn't. Maybe it's because serious damage is much easier to put right with the flick of a wand, and therefore not so serious after all, but the books are replete with instances of characters' lives being in danger and no one blinking an eye (Triwizard tournament, detention in the Forbidden Forest, shoving Montague into a Vanishing Cabinet, to name a few). Now, some actions, like Snape's constant picking on Harry and Neville, don't fall under the category of life-threatening and are much harder to fix with magic (unless there's such thing as a self-esteem potion for Neville to try) but maybe the wizarding world ignores such things as well because, as I've said, their culture is simply more laid back.
To look at the same question from a literary point of view: I'm trying to refrain from saying "there'd be no story if this didn't happen" because that's an answer to everything and nothing. But I do think that JKR's storyline often depends on characters acting out how they really feel, as opposed to how they would act if they felt the same way but had to consider the regulations of society. So we see Snape bullying his students and Umbridge threatening Harry with an Unforgivable curse in front of several witnesses, and we have to kind of ignore the fact that they shouldn't get away with something like that, and just look at what it says about their characters.
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wynnleaf - May 16, 2006 7:35 am (#2181 of 2969)
Edited May 16, 2006 8:37 am
Snape was staring at Harry with dislike at the opening feast in SS/PS. He then ridiculed Harry at the beginning of the first Potions class. No matter what, Snape is an adult, and he "started it."
Another example of how we see everything from Harry's point of view. At the opening feast, Harry stares at Snape. They stare at each other. Then Harry's scar becomes really painful and he sort of grimaces and puts his hand to his scar. Then he has the distinct feeling that Snape doesn't like him.
But you could flip this around and try it from Snape's point of view (speculation only, of course). Snape stares at Harry not sure what he'll think of him -- like James or like Lily?? Suddenly, Harry, while still staring at Snape, gets a very pained expression on his face and puts his hand to his forehead. Then he looks away and starts talking to the Weasleys about Snape. Now, did Snape get the look of dislike because he already disliked Harry, or was he reacting to Harry's look of pained awareness which he mistook as a James-like look of dislike? Point is simply, we see it all from Harry's eyes.
In class, Snape asks Harry some tough questions which Harry can't answer. Harry's suggestion to ask Hermione is cheeky.
I'm not saying Snape's not badly at fault. Just pointing out that we only see things from Harry's point of view. I've got six kids. I've often had a child think a particular teacher is terrible. Sometimes I agree and turn out to be wrong. Sometimes they're right. But I've learned enough to know that my kid's point of view isn't usually the entire story.
Catherine - May 16, 2006 7:47 am (#2182 of 2969)
Edited May 16, 2006 8:50 am
Wynnleaf,
I would suggest that calling Harry, "our new--celebrity" during roll call, causing the Slytherins Draco, Crabbe, and Goyle to snigger behind their hands, was unkind and uncalled-for.
When Harry could not answer the first question, Snape's lips "curled into a sneer." Meanwhile, Snape tolerated the same Slytherin trio who were "shaking with laughter."
The comment "Thought you wouldn't open a book before coming, eh, Potter?" is snarky and demeaning.
Harry did not answer in a cheeky way; he answered "quietly." A few students did laugh, but how is this different from the Slytherin's behavior during Snape's questioning?
He called Neville, "Idiot boy." He unfairly blamed Harry for Neville's mess, not Seamus, who was Neville's partner, and took points off Harry.
Clearly, we do not read that scene the same way. I think any objective observer would say that Snape's behavior was inappropriate.
Sometimes they're right. But I've learned enough to know that my kid's point of view isn't usually the entire story. --Wynnleaf
Of course it isn't. Just the same, I think ANY eleven year-old would be bewildered and justifiably miffed at this kind of treatment.
wynnleaf - May 16, 2006 8:15 am (#2183 of 2969)
I'm not saying Snape's not badly at fault. Just pointing out that we only see things from Harry's point of view.
I could just say --- but I already said it....
Ann - May 16, 2006 8:42 am (#2184 of 2969)
Edited May 16, 2006 9:43 am
Catherine, you're quite right to believe that Snape's treatment justifies Harry's dislike. No teacher should allow personal feelings (resentment of the son of a childhood rival) to influence him that much.
But I think wynnleaf's also right that the two misunderstand each other from the beginning. Snape may indeed have glared at Harry, although the book says only that he "looked past Quirrell's turban straight into Harry's eyes." Harry's scar flares with pain, and Harry has the feeling that the teacher doesn't like him at all. But it may be Voldemort who is giving him that feeling, after all. He certainly doesn't like Harry, and the scar flaring often marks times when Harry senses his feelings.
Then Percy tells him that Quirrell is afraid of Snape, that Snape's unhappy with his job, and that he knows a lot about the Dark Arts. He watches Snape for a while (which Snape might find annoying). That night he has a dream about wearing Quirrell's turban, which tells him he should transfer to Slytherin, and being laughed at by Malfoy, who turns into Snape and then Voldemort (interesting progression), before he wakes to a burst of green light. So on the basis of a look, he's already associating Snape with the Dark wizard that killed his parents. It's not until four days later that he learns (from Ron) that Snape's head of Slytherin, and favors his House.
There's no question that Snape is a nasty teacher. He picks on Harry at the start of his first class, mentioning his celebrity status disparagingly and asking him quite advanced questions (we assume--although Hermione apparently knows the answers) and sneering that he doesn't know the answers. Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle snigger, but Snape doesn't seem to be playing to them. Harry is forcing himself to continue to look directly into Snape's eyes (which may be Snape's goal in this exercise), so Snape is seeing much more of his feelings than what he says. Harry makes his remark about Hermione quietly, yes; but it's sufficient to make some people laugh and Seamus wink at him. Snape clearly has extremely bad associations with a Potter that makes him the butt of others' laughter. So he continues to be mean to Harry, although as Catherine points out, he's really nastiest to Neville. By the end of the first class, they loathe each other. It becomes a self-perpetuating cycle.
And, yes, it's Snape's fault for being petty and abusing his power in the classroom. Teachers sometimes do that. JKR says Snape is based on one she had, and I can think of several I had. Both of us got past it, and Harry's going to as well. Snape may be a jerk, but he's brave and completely loyal to Dumbledore, and his position with Voldemort is going to prove very useful to Harry.
Catherine - May 16, 2006 9:14 am (#2185 of 2969)
Edited May 16, 2006 10:18 am
Snape may be a jerk, but he's brave and completely loyal to Dumbledore, and his position with Voldemort is going to prove very useful to Harry. --Ann
JKR has given Harry and us reasonable doubt about his loyalty to Dumbledore.
I'm not saying Snape's not badly at fault. Just pointing out that we only see things from Harry's point of view. --Wynnleaf
Well, I nearly agree. JKR does narrate the Quidditch match scene in the stands differently than the rest of the novel. Harry is up in the air flying and/or trying to stay on his broom while the reader "sees" the action in the stands. I don't see how this is from Harry's point of view?
I could just say --- but I already said it.... --Wynnleaf
Yes. I noticed.
Choices - May 16, 2006 11:04 am (#2186 of 2969)
Edited May 16, 2006 12:06 pm
It is both interesting and difficult to understand Dumbledore's motives in first having Harry raised by the Dursleys where he is barely tolerated, treated horribly and unloved. Then when he thinks he has found his nitch in the Wizard World and a great home at Hogwarts, he encounters Snape who barely tolerates him, treats him horribly and definitely has no love for him. What is Dumbledore going for with this tough (I almost said tough-love, but where is the love part???) treatment? What exactly does he want to accomplish? Surely Dumbledore knows about Snape's attitude towards Harry and does nothing to stop it. It puzzles me, I must admit.
haymoni - May 16, 2006 11:48 am (#2187 of 2969)
If I recall, Ron gave Harry some insight into Snape - something like he always favors the Slytherins.
Perhaps Snape treats lots of students like this. We really don't hear anything from Fred & George or from Ginny about how he treats the students in the other years.
Dumbledore may not want to get too involved when it comes to Harry. Or with any student, for that matter.
wynnleaf - May 16, 2006 12:09 pm (#2188 of 2969)
I was interested in Snape's comments to Draco after Slughorn's party. I got the impression he put pressure on his own house to study and do well in their classes. That was the first time I remember a clear indication of that, but with most everything from Harry's point of view (yes, in spite of a very few scenes like quidditch), we wouldn't be likely to see this as Snape would probably keep this in-house.
While I agree that Severus appears to let Draco and his friends get away with various bad behavior in class, remember that there are also things that HRH do which Snape does not punish them for because he has no proof. And recall also that his punishment for Harry over the Sectumsempra curse is, in my opinion, going very easy on Harry -- McGonagall herself said Harry was lucky he wasn't expelled.
I have begun to wonder if to some extent the Slytherin's appreciation of Snape's comments and actions in class are more because they are simply the type of people to enjoy that kind of person in the first place, and it's even more fun for them to see other people who don't like Snape's type of person getting very upset over his comments.
Example. In my first year of college, I had a music theory teacher who came across a lot like Snape in class. I can't even remember the man without a sneer on his face. He was always saying rather insulting things and seemed to take particular enjoyment from tormenting the students who were most easily provoked by his comments. He was, by the way, quite brilliant at music theory.
Some of us loved listening to him talk. I was the type who didn't say much of anything, just sat in back and got the biggest kick from listening to some of the students get very frustrated at him and try to somehow show their outrage at him. There was another small group that was a lot more vocal than I was, and who also enjoyed this teacher. These were guys and they'd occasionally toss out a remark to intentionally provoke the students who couldn't stand the teacher. They just loved to see those students get sort of "riled up" and then watch the ensuing interplay between them and the teacher. I can picture some of the Slytherins to be like that.
Of course, this was college. I've known a couple of other teachers like that in college and they tended to have students who really liked them, and some students who simply hated them. I really don't think this kind of personality would do well with 11 year old kids.
Okay, before anyone gets all upset, I'm not trying to say that's all there is to the Harry/Snape interaction. I'm saying there's possibly a different explanation for why the Slytherins appreciate Snape and the other houses don't -- because they have the personality to enjoy him, not because he "favors" them.
Remember, in Harry's point of view, and in fact all the Gryffindor point of view, Snape favors the Slytherins, but McGonagall is fair. But if you really look at some of the points she awards, I would say that McGonagall can occasionally be pretty biased herself.
Catherine - May 16, 2006 1:06 pm (#2189 of 2969)
Edited May 16, 2006 2:29 pm
While I agree that Severus appears to let Draco and his friends get away with various bad behavior in class, remember that there are also things that HRH do which Snape does not punish them for because he has no proof. --Wynnleaf
I'm not sure how this makes Snape especially good, that he didn't punish them wrongly? On the contrary, he issues a false accusation to Harry in GoF about the missing items from his private stores, and threatens Harry with Veritaserum.
But if you really look at some of the points she awards, I would say that McGonagall can occasionally be pretty biased herself.
The only example I can think of is when she gives points to Neville, Ginny, Luna, Hermione, Ron, and Harry at the end of OoP. I think that since the Slytherin-based Inquisitorial Squad unfairly took points all term from their classmates in other houses, it looks fairer all the time. I see nothing biased about McGonagall awarding points in this situation, especially as she then subtracted Harry's points that Snape just took away! McGonagall also took major points from Gryffindors during the "Norbert" episode in SS. I do not see her docking points unfairly from other houses, nor awarding exessive points in order to unfairly give Gryffindor house an edge.
Now, McGonagall is pretty clear where her Quidditch loyalties lie, but then again, all's fair with Quidditch. And Severus Snape seems to feel the same way!
And recall also that his punishment for Harry over the Sectumsempra curse is, in my opinion, going very easy on Harry -- McGonagall herself said Harry was lucky he wasn't expelled.
Harry was dead wrong to use an unfamiliar jinx, although my reading of the passage suggests that Draco pulled his wand and attacked Harry first. Harry did not use "Sectumsempra" until Malfoy began to use Crucio. Harry was immediately sorry afterward. I also think that McGonagall was her usual sensible self by confirming Snape's punishment for Harry.
I'm saying there's possibly a different explanation for why the Slytherins appreciate Snape and the other houses don't -- because they have the personality to enjoy him, not because he "favors" them.
I agree that the Slytherins have the personality to appreciate Snape for favoring them.
wynnleaf - May 16, 2006 1:36 pm (#2190 of 2969)
Edited May 16, 2006 2:37 pm
I'm not sure how this makes Snape especially good, that he didn't punish them wrongly? On the contrary, he issues a false accusation to Harry in GoF about the missing items from his private stores, and threatens Harry with Veritaserum.
Hm, I think I wasn't clear. I meant that HRH assume that anything the Slytherins do in class for which they don't get punished is simply because Snape is favoring the Slytherins -- the assumption is that Snape knew the Slytherin's did the bad stuff, and intentionally didn't punish them. But while I know that happened some, it doesn't make sense that Snape would have missed the proof the HRH had done some bad stuff in class, but never missed what the Slytherins did.
As regards the points at the end of OOTP....personally, I don't think making up for the lost points at the hands of the Inquisitorial Squad quite excuses giving points for knowingly taking one's friends into a situation where people could, and did get seriously injured and killed.
Similarly, while I agree that Draco did an equally bad thing by trying to cast Crucio on Harry, neither of the teachers knew anything about what Draco had done. And even if they did, I would think that would only mean Draco's actions should also be addressed, but not that it was somehow be a fair punishment to give detentions for coming close to killing someone. (Btw, I said "equally bad" because even though crucio is an unforgiveable, it is clearly evident that a broadly used Sectumsempra can rapidly kill if someone's not there to heal the person injured.)
Catherine - May 16, 2006 2:04 pm (#2191 of 2969)
Edited May 16, 2006 3:04 pm
As regards the points at the end of OOTP....personally, I don't think making up for the lost points at the hands of the Inquisitorial Squad quite excuses giving points for knowingly taking one's friends into a situation where people could, and did get seriously injured and killed. --Wynnleaf
She didn't award them points for that. She awarded them points for alerting the Wizarding World to the Dark Lord's return. Harry had been persecuted by Umbridge for maintaining that he was telling the truth. It was the Ministry's desire to suppress this information and desire to suppress and discredit Harry that led to Umbridge's tenure at Hogwarts, and the subsequent formation of the Inquisitorial Squad.
Truly, blaming Harry for his friends' insistence on accompanying him is too much.
Even Snape hasn't zinged Harry for that.
I will agree that there always could be a more positive explanation of why Snape acts the way he does, but that does not mean that JKR intends her readers to read him that way.
Just so I am not misunderstood, I think Snape is one of the most fascinating characters I've encountered. I just do not believe that she intends for us to think that he's a good teacher or a nice person. I think Snape enjoys the power he has over his students, exhalts that he is gifted enough to "pass" between Dumbledore and Voldemort, and wishes that everyone knew how really amazing he is.
In my opinion, he craves the "fame" and "celebrity" that he derides Harry for in SS. He's had to play a subordinate, "back burner" role for a long time, and he appears to be a gifted wizard. I think he resents having to be the wizard on the down low, and his resentment emerges in various inappropriate, yet highly entertaining (to the reader) ways.
That's just my 2 knuts.
winlia - May 16, 2006 4:44 pm (#2192 of 2969)
I don't see how it is possible to reconcile everybody's behavior and always keep them true to how their characters are written. Given DD's goodness, he would rein in some of Snape's more outlandish classroom behavior. Harry is old enough and smart enough to know that he should report Umbridge's torture to an authority--it is so outlandish that they wouldn't be able to ignore it. Harry wouldn't have emerged from the Dursleys' care so emotionally intact. And how was the evil Barty Jr. able to behave with so much compassion when he was impersonating Mad-Eye?
There's so much complexity in the thousands of pages of plot and several dozen characters that occasionally people behave out-of-character and events don't unfold like they would in the real world. Also, some things are just tongue-in-cheek, like the Dursleys and Filch.
Die Zimtzicke - May 17, 2006 8:35 am (#2193 of 2969)
Well, remember what Mark Twain said:
Truth is stranger than fiction; this is because fiction must be plauible, while truth has no such limitation.
Soul Search - May 17, 2006 10:52 am (#2194 of 2969)
Die Zimtzicke, thanks for that whole quote. I had heard the first part Truth is stranger than fiction a number of times, but have never seen the rest.
Choices - May 17, 2006 11:19 am (#2195 of 2969)
That is interesting, Die. I have never heard that last part either. Thanks.
winlia - May 17, 2006 2:17 pm (#2196 of 2969)
In rereading SS, I noticed that in the first potions lesson, Snape talks about the wonderful potions that he could teach if only the class wasn't composed of Dunderheads. One of the potions is the Draught of Living Death, and one of its ingredients is wormwood. "The New Yorker" recently had an article about absinthe (sp?), the alcoholic drink that was popular in New Orleans and banned early in the century. Apparently, the ingredient that made Absinthe unique and possibly dangerous was wormwood.
Ann - May 17, 2006 5:58 pm (#2197 of 2969)
Soul Search and Die Zimtzicke, I'm fairly certain "Truth is stranger than Fiction" is a proverb far older than Mark Twain. He just came up for a (really nifty) explanation why!
Die Zimtzicke - May 17, 2006 9:04 pm (#2198 of 2969)
I just like the way Twain put it. I don't know what his inspiration was.
wynnleaf - May 18, 2006 12:01 pm (#2199 of 2969)
Edited May 18, 2006 1:03 pm
In my opinion, he craves the "fame" and "celebrity" that he derides Harry for in SS. He's had to play a subordinate, "back burner" role for a long time, and he appears to be a gifted wizard. I think he resents having to be the wizard on the down low, and his resentment emerges in various inappropriate, yet highly entertaining (to the reader) ways.
I'm never quite sure where this interpretation of Snape comes from (out of canon, that is). I can't think of anywhere in the books where Snape appears to seek fame, status, etc. Of course, Fudge told Snape that he'd recommend him for an Order of Merlin for the capture of Sirius, but we know that Snape was after Sirius because he hated him and thought he was a mass murderer, not because he was looking for an award. I believe he thanked Fudge, but who wouldn't? Later, he's really upset that Sirius got away, but it's fairly clear to me that he's furious at Sirius' escape because he thinks he's a murderer and he hates him, not because he lost out on an award.
Is there a part there where Harry or one of the other kids thinks he's disappointed in not getting an award? That, of course, would only be another "Harry perspective."
School rumor had it that Snape wanted that DADA position, but even if he did apply for it each year (and he as a Dark Arts specialist surely knew it was a cursed position), how does that show any particular aspiration other than to teach the subject one would like? After all, there's no status in teaching DADA over potions.
No where else can I think of Snape attempting to get recognition. Harry has to push him into admitting that his job with the Order is to get info on LV and the DE's. And while he taunts Sirius about not doing much hanging around Grimmauld Place, he certainly isn't seeking recognition from Sirius or Harry.
So where does this notion come from? Many people seem to think this. Is there an assumption that taunting Harry for celebrity status is an indication that he wants it for himself? I know plenty of people who look down on the notion of "celebrity" who I can detect no personal desire for that status for themselves.
Maybe there's something else in canon I'm forgetting? Sorry, I don't have my books here.
haymoni - May 18, 2006 12:11 pm (#2200 of 2969)
I thought Remus said that the loss of the Order of Merlin hit Snape hard.
Perhaps it isn't what is IN canon as what is NOT in canon.
We don't hear of any trophies with Snape's name on them. We know he envied James's quidditch skills. There just seems to be a lack of public recognition when it comes to Severus Snape.
Of course we don't hear anything about Minerva or any of the other staff either...
Catherine - May 18, 2006 12:36 pm (#2201 of 2969)
Edited May 18, 2006 1:47 pm
I thought Remus said that the loss of the Order of Merlin hit Snape hard. --Haymoni
He did say this. This is one reason (and in canon!) that I think that Snape does wish to be "noted." One of the first things he says to Harry is about Harry being a "celebrity." In my opinion, this is significant, as Harry has in no way indicated to Snape that he desires celebrity. Methinks the Potions Professor doth protest too much...after all, Snape is the one who turned spy at great personal risk. Who wouldn't want some appreciation for this?
Snape also seems to relish his role as spy for the Order, as shown by the Occlumency scene in OoP. I think he enjoys telling Harry that he has that assignment.
It is also my opinion that Snape did not enjoy Slughorn indicating that Harry might equal him in Potions class.
School rumor had it that Snape wanted that DADA position, but even if he did apply for it each year (and he as a Dark Arts specialist surely knew it was a cursed position), how does that show any particular aspiration other than to teach the subject one would like? After all, there's no status in teaching DADA over potions. --Wynnleaf
Ah, but in my opinion it is the fact that he has been repeatedly refused the position by Dumbledore. He does not appear to appreciate it when Umbridge inquires as to why he has never been placed in the position. There is also no canon evidence that Snape knows that Voldemort has cursed the DADA position. It is quite possible that he knows from his associations with Dumbledore and/or Voldemort, however.
Finally, we know that Slytherins tend to be ambitious, at least as a general trait.
Of course we don't hear anything about Minerva or any of the other staff either...--Haymoni
True. Well, we know that Flitwick was a champion dueller in his youth, and we know that Madame Pomfrey thought highly of McGonagall's skills, as evidenced by her comments to Harry after McGonagall was hit in the chest at Hagrid's hut in HbP.
My interpretation of Severus Snape's words and actions in the novels indicate to me that he has "issues" with fame and acclaim (and in many ways, rightfully so).
wynnleaf - May 18, 2006 12:37 pm (#2202 of 2969)
Edited May 18, 2006 1:46 pm
Remus told Harry in POA that the problems between James and Snape were based on Snape being jealous of James' Quidditch skills. Can we seriously believe that after the rest of the books??
If Remus is also the one to say that the loss of the Order of Merlin hit Snape hard (in the same book where he made the "jealous over quidditch" comment), can we really believe this? Does Remus know Snape so well to know that he was upset about that, or was he trying to side-step the issues of what Snape was really furious about?
Sorry, I don't trust Remus' interpretations of Snape, particularly in POA where he seems to be trying to gloss over the truth of the history between the Maruaders and Snape to Harry. Besides, do we readers think that Harry understands Malfoy's motivations and desires, or vice versa? Would we assume that Snape's assessment of Remus' motivations was accurate? So why should Remus' assumptions be accurate, especially when we find out later that Snape's dislike of James had to do with a lot bigger things than Quidditch skills.
Is there any other canon evidence besides Remus' comments?
One of the first things he says to Harry is about Harry being a "celebrity." In my opinion, this is significant.
I'm curious as to why this indicates something? If someone makes fun of someone over something (wrong of course), it automatically means they wish that thing for themselves?
Snape also seems to relish his role as spy for the Order, as shown by the Occlumency scene in OoP.
I never got the impression Snape "relished" his role as a spy. He, after all, had no choice. DD seems to consider a role that puts him at "great risk." Would someone "relish" putting their life on the line constantly? Yes, he does say, when pushed by Harry, that his role is to gather the info on what LV's telling his DE's. But I don't see how that shows him relishing his role. Maybe so....
It is also my opinion that Snape did not enjoy Slughorn indicating that Harry might equal him in Potions class.
Perhaps because he knew for a fact that Harry wasn't equal to him, even if he wasn't aware that Harry was getting all that "talent" from using Snape's notes. After all, if he knew that Harry didn't have that kind of talent, he'd be pretty suspicious of why Harry appeared to have abilities that he didn't actually have.
Catherine - May 18, 2006 12:55 pm (#2203 of 2969)
Edited May 18, 2006 2:11 pm
If Remus is also the one to say that the loss of the Order of Merlin hit Snape hard (in the same book where he made the "jealous over quidditch" comment), can we really believe this? Does Remus know Snape so well to know that he was upset about that, or was he trying to side-step the issues of what Snape was really furious about?--Wynnleaf
Just because Remus did not reveal the entire unpleasant truth about James's behavior to James's son (which I think speaks of tact and a care for Harry's feelings) does not mean that Severus was not, in fact, jealous of James's skill on the Quidditch field.
I'm curious as to why this indicates something? If someone makes fun of someone over something (wrong of course), it automatically means they wish that thing for themselves? --Wynnleaf
I do not believe that I said automatically. It's not as though Snape made a casual comment about Harry Potter's celebrity status over a drink at the pub when everyone was shaking his hand. That the first words we ever see him say about Harry concern Harry's celebrity status could, in some people's opinion, elevate the importance of the remark.
It is obvious that people can choose to interpret characters' actions without suggesting that someone is not using canon evidence to support their interpretation. For example:
But I don't see how that shows him relishing his role. Maybe so.... --Wynnleaf
"...Harry convinced he had gone too far. But there was a curious, almost satisfied expression on Snape's face when her answered." "Yes, Potter, he said, his eyes glinting. "That is my job..." (OoP, 591, hardback). (emphasis mine)
Thus, the expression, the eye glint, lead me to believe that Snape enjoys having his special status acknowledged.
wynnleaf - May 18, 2006 1:11 pm (#2204 of 2969)
Edited May 18, 2006 2:23 pm
It is obvious that people can choose to interpret characters' actions in different ways without suggesting that someone is not using canon evidence to support their interpretation.
Oh, I did not intend to imply that the evidence mentioned was not in canon. I agree that we readers often interpret character's actions differently. That is part of the fun of the stories, in that the characters are 3-dimensional and have strengths and weaknesses which can cause us to interpret their comments and actions different ways. For instance, I agree that the remarks in OOTP are certainly part of canon and can be interpreted that way. However, I personally don't see that as an indication that Snape "relishes" his role. Similarly, I certainly agree that Remus made the comments he did in POA. I simply disagree with how much the reader should trust Remus' remarks about Snape.
Of course, it is surely possible that Remus is completely accurate in saying that Snape was jealous over James' Quidditch skills. But I'm not sure how Remus would know about another student's jealously, when that student was in another house and they appear to have had a strong annimosity toward one another. For instance, Harry could possibly assume that Draco was jealous of his quidditch skills, but how could he possibly really know?
Besides, saying "our group's prime enemy in school was mainly our enemy 'cause he was just jealous," --- well, that's a common remark, often said by both sides in a school-age feud. I occasionally hear that out of my own kids to explain why certain kids don't get along with them. I've rarely found it to be the real reason behind the problem.
Btw, my disagreement with the idea of Snape "relishing" his spying role may be primarily semantic. Based on a definition of "relish" as "derive or receive pleasure from; get enjoyment from; take pleasure in," I can't see in canon where Snape shows a "relish" of spying. I take the glint in his eye, etc. to indicate that he gains a satisfaction of sorts in telling Harry that spying is his job and not Harry's, but perhaps one could take it as enjoyment and pleasure from spying, or the status of that role in the Order, or something like that.
Hollywand - May 18, 2006 3:35 pm (#2205 of 2969)
Edited May 18, 2006 4:36 pm
Wynnleaf, just curious, do you think that Severus christening himself as a "Prince" is a little toward the "desires fame and immortaly" camp?
Pamzter - May 18, 2006 6:58 pm (#2206 of 2969)
New thought from from spot reading I was doing. I do think that it was Snape that Pet met. I do think Snape loved Lily. Now for new thought: I think Snape called her "Mudblood" on purpose, to create a breach between them. Perhaps to protect her from something or maybe he knew nothing could ever really happen so it was to force the issue so he could get over her. Or . . . I'm just thinking this as I'm typing . . . did he feel she'd betrayed him somehow (given James the spells he created?) and he was shooting back at her?
Magic Words - May 18, 2006 7:40 pm (#2207 of 2969)
Edited May 18, 2006 8:41 pm
Ooh, Pamzter, good thought! I don't know, though.... it would take some really quick thinking on his part. I assumed he was under emotional stress and was lashing out without thinking, but you're saying he was in control enough to size up the situation and take advantage of it, in a completely unrelated way. I guess, maybe if he'd been planning for a while to say something, so it was on his mind? I can't really see her giving James the spells. It sounds like she hated James almost as much as Snape did. He might have found them out, though, and Snape might have thought she told him.... that gets complicated. Maybe it was something else, like they'd recently had an argument about Voldemort?
Or... maybe both. He could have said it without thinking, but purposely didn't try to apologize or anything, because of what you suggested.
wynnleaf - May 18, 2006 7:44 pm (#2208 of 2969)
Edited May 18, 2006 8:46 pm
Wynnleaf, just curious, do you think that Severus christening himself as a "Prince" is a little toward the "desires fame and immortaly" camp?
I think Severus was doing something a number of very, very bright, nerdy teens do when they are also very much outsiders. On the inside, even though no one else can see it, they tell themselves that their being an outsider doesn't matter because ultimately they're better than every one else. It's a defensive mechanism and a way of feeling better about self. Lupin had never heard that title before. It's likely then that this was a private name Severus had for himself. It's an interesting way of taking aspects that others might consider negatives (being a half-blood) and a name he has some legitimate claim to (Prince), and making up a really cool name that sounds like a sort of cross between elite and mysterious. But it's a name he just uses privately. It's got a very proud sound to it.
But it appears to have been a very private name that he just had for himself. I think it's indicative of how I tend to see Snape. Very private, proud, trying to make up for insecurities -- mostly internally.
Magic Words, I agree with you. I think the situation was way too stressful for Severus' words to be anything, but reaction to the stress.
Pamzter - May 18, 2006 8:15 pm (#2209 of 2969)
How about this -- JK's chapter titles always seem to have double meaning. This one is "Snape's Worst Memory". What if it is his worst memory, not because of being turned upside down or having gray underwear, but because he called Lily a mudblood when he really loved her and ruined their friendship forever?
Hollywand - May 18, 2006 8:27 pm (#2210 of 2969)
Edited May 18, 2006 9:29 pm
Bravo, Wynnleaf, great answer! Lots of food for thought on this complex character.
****To contribute to the other dialog here, "Snape's Worst Memory" stems from his fear that Harry has the ability to turn magic used against him back upon the perpetrator, as his father James has done. James uses the Levicorpus spell on Severus to humiliate him. We don't learn until book six that Seveus invented the Levicorpus spell, which, ironically, Harry is very curious about in book six.
We see Harry turn Riddle's magic back upon him in the destruction of the diary. It's instinct with Harry; I'm pretty sure he doesn't consciously realize it (yet).
Severus is strategically smart enough to see Harry's inherent magical ability before Harry recognizes it, and hides his memory from Harry. I hope this makes sense.
Pamzter - May 19, 2006 4:34 am (#2211 of 2969)
Hmmm, I’ve never thought of Snape as proud, but rather his using “Half Blood Prince” as a derisive term against himself, as a reminder he is not worth anything. I don’t think he wants to be famous as he’s had an opportunity to singularize himself (could have been quite popular if he’d shared some of those spells to the others teens). I think this is a result of his abuse - everything got beaten out of him - all thoughts of being special, or clever, or acceptable. And being raised in an abusive home, he doesn’t know anything but to be abusive to others (and himself). If he was punished for being clever, he’s going to punish others when they try to be clever. I think he became a deatheater either because he needed to find people who would accept him in spite of his worthlessness or because he thought it was his destiny because he felt so worthless, or to prove there was a place he belonged.
By the time of the humiliation by James happened, I think Snape had already become, or decided to become, a deatheater (thus his “just you wait”) and had already planned to cut his ties to Lily and took the opportunity provided.
Catherine - Oct 7, 2005 3:48 pm (#2212 of 2969)
By the time of the humiliation by James happened, I think Snape had already become, or decided to become, a deatheater (thus his “just you wait”) and had already planned to cut his ties to Lily and took the opportunity provided.
I still don't know if I believe that Snape and Lily had ties. I always assumed that Lily was "doing the right thing" by interfering in James's heckling of Severus.
After HbP, what I want to know is how Severus may have felt about Narcissa. That she turns to him for help even though it may defy Voldemort's instructions...well, clearly she loves her son and she is quite desperate...but still....I wonder.
wynnleaf - May 19, 2006 5:36 am (#2213 of 2969)
Edited May 19, 2006 6:40 am
Pamzter,
Abuse (which I think we all assume is part of Severus' past), can take many forms and didn't necessarily have anything to do with his cleverness. I've never thought of Snape as having any lack of confidence in his intellectual abilities. Indeed, the notes in the HBP potions book display a high level on confident creativity. And remember the PS logic puzzle? That seems the kind of thing written by someone who knows he's clever and is pretty confident in it.
I agree that he's abusive toward others and perhaps to himself, and almost certainly has issues with self-worth. But that doesn't mean he's insecure intellectually.
If he was punished for being clever, he’s going to punish others when they try to be clever.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't remember examples of this except for Hermione. I see his "know-it-all" comments toward Hermione a bit differently -- more like the very creative and innovative person looking down on the quote-from-the-book, follow the instructions type person. I actually see Hermione as more intellectually insecure (relatively that is), in her need to try to answer every question, write pages and pages more than is asked for, etc.
I guess in part it has to do with how a reader responds to the name Half Blood Prince. Before the book came out, the focus was more on figuring out who the person was, not so much considering the name itself. But I always thought the name sounded way cool. Harry doesn't seem to see the name in a negative way, or self-deprecating way. He obviously thinks the HBP is pretty cool and we never see him juxtapose that with thinking that the name sounded a bit negative.
Oh, and as regards Narcissa...it's interesting that Narcissa, in her efforts to convince Severus to help Draco, focuses a lot on Severus' friendship with Lucius and relationship with Draco, but in no way seems to play on any knowledge or feeling that Severus cares for her personally. She, for instance, does not ask for his help based on any friendship with her. Given that Narcissa really, really wanted his help, I think she'd have used any attraction or friendship he'd had with her in her pleas to him. Nevertheless, Snape does act more gentle with Narcissa than we've ever seen him (possible exception later with Draco after Sectumsempra). So he may have feelings toward her.
Solitaire - May 19, 2006 6:09 am (#2214 of 2969)
I like the idea that Snape is jealous of Harry's "celebrity" ... celebrity that Snape obviously feels Harry did nothing to deserve. It would explain a lot of Snape's hostility toward Harry. I also like the suggestion that christening himself the Half-Blood Prince showed a desire for fame of his own. His mother's maiden name, Prince, would have been a good cover for it, too, had his personal nick been discovered by others. Nice suggestions, folks!
Solitaire
Pamzter - May 19, 2006 6:26 am (#2215 of 2969)
The abuse wouldn't have had to been directed at his cleverness to impact him that way - it would make him doubt everything about himself. (The abuse isn't assumed, I believe JK stated in an interview that his father was quite abusive)
I'm come to these thoughts for two reasons. The first is my experience with adults who were abused as children and the issues they face in coming to terms with themselves and accepting their own worth. The second, which may sound funny, is Alan Rickman's portrayal of Snape. If I just read the books I'd probably just hate Snape in a one-dimensional kind of way. But Rickman's portryal is so rich, I just feel all the pain.
(Plus, with Rickkman, I know how cute Snape would be if he just cleaned up a little - hehehe)
wynnleaf - May 19, 2006 8:38 am (#2216 of 2969)
Edited May 19, 2006 10:07 am
Very interesting discussion....
The abuse wouldn't have had to been directed at his cleverness to impact him that way - it would make him doubt everything about himself. (The abuse isn't assumed, I believe JK stated in an interview that his father was quite abusive)
First, unless the interview you refer to is very new, I believe that you're mistaken about that. You might check the Madam Scoop's index of quotes under the "quotes" link on the Lexicon home page, you'll find all of JKR's quotes organized according to topic. I have never found a quote where she confirmed that Snape was abused as a kid. If you know where the quote is, please let me know as it would be quite interesting to read.
As far as I know, the only evidence we have is Snape's behavior -- which could stem from a background of abuse of some sort -- and the memory that Harry sees during occlumency lessons of the small boy crying in a corner while a man with a hook nose shouts at a woman. Many assume that this at least indicates that he grew up in a verbally abusive household. Even this is not definite, based only on that one memory.
While I certainly agree that there are those for who a background of abuse makes them doubt everything about themselves, that is not (through personal knowledge) true of all who experience that. I really think the type and degree of abusive or neglected background has a lot to do with it. So I think several options, including your's, are possible.
We have to remember, too, that Snape may have other reasons, besides an abusive background, to have difficulties with self esteem. If he did indeed grow up at Spinner's End, in a half-Muggle household, then it looks likely that he came to Hogwarts fresh from a Northern England, working class, partly Muggle background, complete with accent, mannerisms etc. Then he gets put in Slytherin, where there's lots of purebloods, and he's got an awful lot to overcome. Add to that the "otherness" that many very bright kids sense around children their age, and I'd say the situation was ripe for lots of instances that would thoroughly strain the self esteem of a kid already probably insecure. Remember the memory of the bucking broomstick (I seem to recall other kid's laughing)? If he grew up on Spinner's End, he'd almost certainly never been on a broom before.
Oh, now remember that Sirius and James were from wealthy, pureblood families. Lupin is apparently pureblood, though not wealthy. Good looking, talented, etc. Was Snape just naturally jealous of them? He apparently didn't hate Lucius for being wealthy, pureblood, good looking and talented. Or did he hate them because not only were they everything he wasn't, they were bullying? That "Snivellus" nickname is the kind of thing young kids think up -- they probably gave him that name early on. And it seems to refer to crying -- sniveling, you know. No, we don't know for sure, but if a kid already felt waaaay insecure -- and in part for good reason -- would it be any surprise that he'd quickly learn to hate anyone that belittled him further?
Anyhow, why do I think there's pride there? Because that's what I see soooo much of in the outsider, very bright kids. It's not a healthy pride. It's a defensive pride. It's a way of coping and being able to tell yourself that it's okay that people don't like you, because they aren't worth the trouble anyway. You may not have the school status that they do, but it doesn't matter because you're better -- and how better? Smarter.
That may not be the way Severus is. But I've seen too many people that were like that -- and yes, some from abusive and/or neglected backgrounds -- to not think it's a strong possibility.
the issues they face in coming to terms with themselves and accepting their own worth.
I've talked a lot with adults who are both very bright and came from abusive or neglectful homes. There are some, who don't even see their intellectual ability. They have no confidence in it and see no value in it and that became something they eventually had to deal with (often when they had their own kids). But there are others who retained plenty of acceptance and knowledge of their intellectual ability and were completely secure in that, but the problem is that they saw that as practically their only means of self-worth. They almost saw their worth in terms of how good a "tool" they were, if that makes any sense.
You know, if brevity is the soul of wit, I don't have much hope, do I?
journeymom - May 19, 2006 9:08 am (#2217 of 2969)
"Lupin is apparently pureblood, though not wealthy." Lupin is a half-blood. JKR doesn't specify which, but he has one muggle parent or grandparent.
I believe Snape was neglected and that he was the little boy in that memory, simply because it fits with JKR's literary pattern. The parallels between Tom Riddle, Harry Potter and Severus Snape have been growing through out the books. Harry feels a shiver of sympathy for Merope, and Tom Riddle by extension, in HBP.
Wasn't there an essay here that suggested that Snape faked those memories for Harry to see? I suppose it's possible, but that just seems unnecessarily complicated.
I read one fanfic that made an interesting twist on Snape's little boy crying memory. It turns out that the man with the hooked nose yelling at the woman is Severus and the little boy is his son. I know, not likely, but interesting nonetheless.
der 905 - May 19, 2006 10:26 am (#2218 of 2969)
"Lupin is a half-blood. JKR doesn't specify which, but he has one muggle parent or grandparent."
In HBP Lupin says Greyback bit him to punish his father for not cooperating with him, so it's probably safe to say that his mother is the muggle.
Someone said earlier (sorry don't remember who) that JKR gives double meaning to her chapter titles. What if the double meaning of "Snape's Worst Memory" isn't that the memory of James torturing him is his worst memory, but Harry seeing it is? I mean Harry going into the pensieve and seeing what he saw becomes his worst memory and not what was actually in the pensieve.
Also, I was rereading some of the Snape scenes in the book and remembered the scene where Harry learns he's a parceltongue (spelling ?). In it he says everyone was looking at him with an expression of shock and surprise except Snape who was looking at him very shrewdly. I started to wonder if maybe Snape was studying him because he understood what Harry said. What if Snape can also speak to snakes? Sorry to bring up something off topic, but I don't recall anybody ever mentioning this, so I'm wondering if I'm way off.
Soul Mate for Sirius - May 19, 2006 10:49 am (#2219 of 2969)
Edited May 19, 2006 11:51 am
der, good thoughts on Snape possibly understanding what Harry said. But, I thought I remembered DD telling Harry that, 1) Parseltounge is a very rare gift and 2) that Harry and LV may very well be the only ones to pass through Hogwarts since Slytherin himself. I may be a bit off on that, as I don't have my books, he may have just told Harry that Harry was the only one since LV, but either way, it supports my conclusion.
So, if we are to believe DD, and I feel certain we can, then I think it's highly unlikely that Snape is a Parselmouth. First, becuase he "passed through" Hogwarts after Lv, and also because, I would assume that DD would know this bit of information about Severus. Speaking to snakes is rumored to be a mark of a Dark wisard, and I'm sure DD would keep tabs whether any of his teachers had this particular gift. And finally, I doubt LV would want another Parselmouth around. Especially one not directly related to Slytherin. He just seems too proud of his origins to allow such a gift in one of his DE's.
JM2K
-Jenn
Magic Words - May 19, 2006 11:31 am (#2220 of 2969)
But there are others who retained plenty of acceptance and knowledge of their intellectual ability and were completely secure in that, but the problem is that they saw that as practically their only means of self-worth. They almost saw their worth in terms of how good a "tool" they were, if that makes any sense. -Wynnleaf
This strikes me as making a lot of sense for Snape. He had very high positions in both the Order and the Death Eaters, but I never got the impression he was reaching for power, for its own sake. He accepted Dumbledore's leadership, and I saw no evidence of jockeying for position against other Death Eaters, as they seem to do among themselves. All he's asked is recognition for what he does accomplish. I think you're right about the pride as well, Wynnleaf.
I read an essay on the Leaky Cauldron site that looked at Snape's atrological birth chart. I don't know much about astrology, but I remember one comment about Snape that made a lot of sense- that he needs to be in control, not necessarily of everything, but of his own environment.
Edited May 16, 2006 8:37 am
Snape was staring at Harry with dislike at the opening feast in SS/PS. He then ridiculed Harry at the beginning of the first Potions class. No matter what, Snape is an adult, and he "started it."
Another example of how we see everything from Harry's point of view. At the opening feast, Harry stares at Snape. They stare at each other. Then Harry's scar becomes really painful and he sort of grimaces and puts his hand to his scar. Then he has the distinct feeling that Snape doesn't like him.
But you could flip this around and try it from Snape's point of view (speculation only, of course). Snape stares at Harry not sure what he'll think of him -- like James or like Lily?? Suddenly, Harry, while still staring at Snape, gets a very pained expression on his face and puts his hand to his forehead. Then he looks away and starts talking to the Weasleys about Snape. Now, did Snape get the look of dislike because he already disliked Harry, or was he reacting to Harry's look of pained awareness which he mistook as a James-like look of dislike? Point is simply, we see it all from Harry's eyes.
In class, Snape asks Harry some tough questions which Harry can't answer. Harry's suggestion to ask Hermione is cheeky.
I'm not saying Snape's not badly at fault. Just pointing out that we only see things from Harry's point of view. I've got six kids. I've often had a child think a particular teacher is terrible. Sometimes I agree and turn out to be wrong. Sometimes they're right. But I've learned enough to know that my kid's point of view isn't usually the entire story.
Catherine - May 16, 2006 7:47 am (#2182 of 2969)
Edited May 16, 2006 8:50 am
Wynnleaf,
I would suggest that calling Harry, "our new--celebrity" during roll call, causing the Slytherins Draco, Crabbe, and Goyle to snigger behind their hands, was unkind and uncalled-for.
When Harry could not answer the first question, Snape's lips "curled into a sneer." Meanwhile, Snape tolerated the same Slytherin trio who were "shaking with laughter."
The comment "Thought you wouldn't open a book before coming, eh, Potter?" is snarky and demeaning.
Harry did not answer in a cheeky way; he answered "quietly." A few students did laugh, but how is this different from the Slytherin's behavior during Snape's questioning?
He called Neville, "Idiot boy." He unfairly blamed Harry for Neville's mess, not Seamus, who was Neville's partner, and took points off Harry.
Clearly, we do not read that scene the same way. I think any objective observer would say that Snape's behavior was inappropriate.
Sometimes they're right. But I've learned enough to know that my kid's point of view isn't usually the entire story. --Wynnleaf
Of course it isn't. Just the same, I think ANY eleven year-old would be bewildered and justifiably miffed at this kind of treatment.
wynnleaf - May 16, 2006 8:15 am (#2183 of 2969)
I'm not saying Snape's not badly at fault. Just pointing out that we only see things from Harry's point of view.
I could just say --- but I already said it....
Ann - May 16, 2006 8:42 am (#2184 of 2969)
Edited May 16, 2006 9:43 am
Catherine, you're quite right to believe that Snape's treatment justifies Harry's dislike. No teacher should allow personal feelings (resentment of the son of a childhood rival) to influence him that much.
But I think wynnleaf's also right that the two misunderstand each other from the beginning. Snape may indeed have glared at Harry, although the book says only that he "looked past Quirrell's turban straight into Harry's eyes." Harry's scar flares with pain, and Harry has the feeling that the teacher doesn't like him at all. But it may be Voldemort who is giving him that feeling, after all. He certainly doesn't like Harry, and the scar flaring often marks times when Harry senses his feelings.
Then Percy tells him that Quirrell is afraid of Snape, that Snape's unhappy with his job, and that he knows a lot about the Dark Arts. He watches Snape for a while (which Snape might find annoying). That night he has a dream about wearing Quirrell's turban, which tells him he should transfer to Slytherin, and being laughed at by Malfoy, who turns into Snape and then Voldemort (interesting progression), before he wakes to a burst of green light. So on the basis of a look, he's already associating Snape with the Dark wizard that killed his parents. It's not until four days later that he learns (from Ron) that Snape's head of Slytherin, and favors his House.
There's no question that Snape is a nasty teacher. He picks on Harry at the start of his first class, mentioning his celebrity status disparagingly and asking him quite advanced questions (we assume--although Hermione apparently knows the answers) and sneering that he doesn't know the answers. Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle snigger, but Snape doesn't seem to be playing to them. Harry is forcing himself to continue to look directly into Snape's eyes (which may be Snape's goal in this exercise), so Snape is seeing much more of his feelings than what he says. Harry makes his remark about Hermione quietly, yes; but it's sufficient to make some people laugh and Seamus wink at him. Snape clearly has extremely bad associations with a Potter that makes him the butt of others' laughter. So he continues to be mean to Harry, although as Catherine points out, he's really nastiest to Neville. By the end of the first class, they loathe each other. It becomes a self-perpetuating cycle.
And, yes, it's Snape's fault for being petty and abusing his power in the classroom. Teachers sometimes do that. JKR says Snape is based on one she had, and I can think of several I had. Both of us got past it, and Harry's going to as well. Snape may be a jerk, but he's brave and completely loyal to Dumbledore, and his position with Voldemort is going to prove very useful to Harry.
Catherine - May 16, 2006 9:14 am (#2185 of 2969)
Edited May 16, 2006 10:18 am
Snape may be a jerk, but he's brave and completely loyal to Dumbledore, and his position with Voldemort is going to prove very useful to Harry. --Ann
JKR has given Harry and us reasonable doubt about his loyalty to Dumbledore.
I'm not saying Snape's not badly at fault. Just pointing out that we only see things from Harry's point of view. --Wynnleaf
Well, I nearly agree. JKR does narrate the Quidditch match scene in the stands differently than the rest of the novel. Harry is up in the air flying and/or trying to stay on his broom while the reader "sees" the action in the stands. I don't see how this is from Harry's point of view?
I could just say --- but I already said it.... --Wynnleaf
Yes. I noticed.
Choices - May 16, 2006 11:04 am (#2186 of 2969)
Edited May 16, 2006 12:06 pm
It is both interesting and difficult to understand Dumbledore's motives in first having Harry raised by the Dursleys where he is barely tolerated, treated horribly and unloved. Then when he thinks he has found his nitch in the Wizard World and a great home at Hogwarts, he encounters Snape who barely tolerates him, treats him horribly and definitely has no love for him. What is Dumbledore going for with this tough (I almost said tough-love, but where is the love part???) treatment? What exactly does he want to accomplish? Surely Dumbledore knows about Snape's attitude towards Harry and does nothing to stop it. It puzzles me, I must admit.
haymoni - May 16, 2006 11:48 am (#2187 of 2969)
If I recall, Ron gave Harry some insight into Snape - something like he always favors the Slytherins.
Perhaps Snape treats lots of students like this. We really don't hear anything from Fred & George or from Ginny about how he treats the students in the other years.
Dumbledore may not want to get too involved when it comes to Harry. Or with any student, for that matter.
wynnleaf - May 16, 2006 12:09 pm (#2188 of 2969)
I was interested in Snape's comments to Draco after Slughorn's party. I got the impression he put pressure on his own house to study and do well in their classes. That was the first time I remember a clear indication of that, but with most everything from Harry's point of view (yes, in spite of a very few scenes like quidditch), we wouldn't be likely to see this as Snape would probably keep this in-house.
While I agree that Severus appears to let Draco and his friends get away with various bad behavior in class, remember that there are also things that HRH do which Snape does not punish them for because he has no proof. And recall also that his punishment for Harry over the Sectumsempra curse is, in my opinion, going very easy on Harry -- McGonagall herself said Harry was lucky he wasn't expelled.
I have begun to wonder if to some extent the Slytherin's appreciation of Snape's comments and actions in class are more because they are simply the type of people to enjoy that kind of person in the first place, and it's even more fun for them to see other people who don't like Snape's type of person getting very upset over his comments.
Example. In my first year of college, I had a music theory teacher who came across a lot like Snape in class. I can't even remember the man without a sneer on his face. He was always saying rather insulting things and seemed to take particular enjoyment from tormenting the students who were most easily provoked by his comments. He was, by the way, quite brilliant at music theory.
Some of us loved listening to him talk. I was the type who didn't say much of anything, just sat in back and got the biggest kick from listening to some of the students get very frustrated at him and try to somehow show their outrage at him. There was another small group that was a lot more vocal than I was, and who also enjoyed this teacher. These were guys and they'd occasionally toss out a remark to intentionally provoke the students who couldn't stand the teacher. They just loved to see those students get sort of "riled up" and then watch the ensuing interplay between them and the teacher. I can picture some of the Slytherins to be like that.
Of course, this was college. I've known a couple of other teachers like that in college and they tended to have students who really liked them, and some students who simply hated them. I really don't think this kind of personality would do well with 11 year old kids.
Okay, before anyone gets all upset, I'm not trying to say that's all there is to the Harry/Snape interaction. I'm saying there's possibly a different explanation for why the Slytherins appreciate Snape and the other houses don't -- because they have the personality to enjoy him, not because he "favors" them.
Remember, in Harry's point of view, and in fact all the Gryffindor point of view, Snape favors the Slytherins, but McGonagall is fair. But if you really look at some of the points she awards, I would say that McGonagall can occasionally be pretty biased herself.
Catherine - May 16, 2006 1:06 pm (#2189 of 2969)
Edited May 16, 2006 2:29 pm
While I agree that Severus appears to let Draco and his friends get away with various bad behavior in class, remember that there are also things that HRH do which Snape does not punish them for because he has no proof. --Wynnleaf
I'm not sure how this makes Snape especially good, that he didn't punish them wrongly? On the contrary, he issues a false accusation to Harry in GoF about the missing items from his private stores, and threatens Harry with Veritaserum.
But if you really look at some of the points she awards, I would say that McGonagall can occasionally be pretty biased herself.
The only example I can think of is when she gives points to Neville, Ginny, Luna, Hermione, Ron, and Harry at the end of OoP. I think that since the Slytherin-based Inquisitorial Squad unfairly took points all term from their classmates in other houses, it looks fairer all the time. I see nothing biased about McGonagall awarding points in this situation, especially as she then subtracted Harry's points that Snape just took away! McGonagall also took major points from Gryffindors during the "Norbert" episode in SS. I do not see her docking points unfairly from other houses, nor awarding exessive points in order to unfairly give Gryffindor house an edge.
Now, McGonagall is pretty clear where her Quidditch loyalties lie, but then again, all's fair with Quidditch. And Severus Snape seems to feel the same way!
And recall also that his punishment for Harry over the Sectumsempra curse is, in my opinion, going very easy on Harry -- McGonagall herself said Harry was lucky he wasn't expelled.
Harry was dead wrong to use an unfamiliar jinx, although my reading of the passage suggests that Draco pulled his wand and attacked Harry first. Harry did not use "Sectumsempra" until Malfoy began to use Crucio. Harry was immediately sorry afterward. I also think that McGonagall was her usual sensible self by confirming Snape's punishment for Harry.
I'm saying there's possibly a different explanation for why the Slytherins appreciate Snape and the other houses don't -- because they have the personality to enjoy him, not because he "favors" them.
I agree that the Slytherins have the personality to appreciate Snape for favoring them.
wynnleaf - May 16, 2006 1:36 pm (#2190 of 2969)
Edited May 16, 2006 2:37 pm
I'm not sure how this makes Snape especially good, that he didn't punish them wrongly? On the contrary, he issues a false accusation to Harry in GoF about the missing items from his private stores, and threatens Harry with Veritaserum.
Hm, I think I wasn't clear. I meant that HRH assume that anything the Slytherins do in class for which they don't get punished is simply because Snape is favoring the Slytherins -- the assumption is that Snape knew the Slytherin's did the bad stuff, and intentionally didn't punish them. But while I know that happened some, it doesn't make sense that Snape would have missed the proof the HRH had done some bad stuff in class, but never missed what the Slytherins did.
As regards the points at the end of OOTP....personally, I don't think making up for the lost points at the hands of the Inquisitorial Squad quite excuses giving points for knowingly taking one's friends into a situation where people could, and did get seriously injured and killed.
Similarly, while I agree that Draco did an equally bad thing by trying to cast Crucio on Harry, neither of the teachers knew anything about what Draco had done. And even if they did, I would think that would only mean Draco's actions should also be addressed, but not that it was somehow be a fair punishment to give detentions for coming close to killing someone. (Btw, I said "equally bad" because even though crucio is an unforgiveable, it is clearly evident that a broadly used Sectumsempra can rapidly kill if someone's not there to heal the person injured.)
Catherine - May 16, 2006 2:04 pm (#2191 of 2969)
Edited May 16, 2006 3:04 pm
As regards the points at the end of OOTP....personally, I don't think making up for the lost points at the hands of the Inquisitorial Squad quite excuses giving points for knowingly taking one's friends into a situation where people could, and did get seriously injured and killed. --Wynnleaf
She didn't award them points for that. She awarded them points for alerting the Wizarding World to the Dark Lord's return. Harry had been persecuted by Umbridge for maintaining that he was telling the truth. It was the Ministry's desire to suppress this information and desire to suppress and discredit Harry that led to Umbridge's tenure at Hogwarts, and the subsequent formation of the Inquisitorial Squad.
Truly, blaming Harry for his friends' insistence on accompanying him is too much.
Even Snape hasn't zinged Harry for that.
I will agree that there always could be a more positive explanation of why Snape acts the way he does, but that does not mean that JKR intends her readers to read him that way.
Just so I am not misunderstood, I think Snape is one of the most fascinating characters I've encountered. I just do not believe that she intends for us to think that he's a good teacher or a nice person. I think Snape enjoys the power he has over his students, exhalts that he is gifted enough to "pass" between Dumbledore and Voldemort, and wishes that everyone knew how really amazing he is.
In my opinion, he craves the "fame" and "celebrity" that he derides Harry for in SS. He's had to play a subordinate, "back burner" role for a long time, and he appears to be a gifted wizard. I think he resents having to be the wizard on the down low, and his resentment emerges in various inappropriate, yet highly entertaining (to the reader) ways.
That's just my 2 knuts.
winlia - May 16, 2006 4:44 pm (#2192 of 2969)
I don't see how it is possible to reconcile everybody's behavior and always keep them true to how their characters are written. Given DD's goodness, he would rein in some of Snape's more outlandish classroom behavior. Harry is old enough and smart enough to know that he should report Umbridge's torture to an authority--it is so outlandish that they wouldn't be able to ignore it. Harry wouldn't have emerged from the Dursleys' care so emotionally intact. And how was the evil Barty Jr. able to behave with so much compassion when he was impersonating Mad-Eye?
There's so much complexity in the thousands of pages of plot and several dozen characters that occasionally people behave out-of-character and events don't unfold like they would in the real world. Also, some things are just tongue-in-cheek, like the Dursleys and Filch.
Die Zimtzicke - May 17, 2006 8:35 am (#2193 of 2969)
Well, remember what Mark Twain said:
Truth is stranger than fiction; this is because fiction must be plauible, while truth has no such limitation.
Soul Search - May 17, 2006 10:52 am (#2194 of 2969)
Die Zimtzicke, thanks for that whole quote. I had heard the first part Truth is stranger than fiction a number of times, but have never seen the rest.
Choices - May 17, 2006 11:19 am (#2195 of 2969)
That is interesting, Die. I have never heard that last part either. Thanks.
winlia - May 17, 2006 2:17 pm (#2196 of 2969)
In rereading SS, I noticed that in the first potions lesson, Snape talks about the wonderful potions that he could teach if only the class wasn't composed of Dunderheads. One of the potions is the Draught of Living Death, and one of its ingredients is wormwood. "The New Yorker" recently had an article about absinthe (sp?), the alcoholic drink that was popular in New Orleans and banned early in the century. Apparently, the ingredient that made Absinthe unique and possibly dangerous was wormwood.
Ann - May 17, 2006 5:58 pm (#2197 of 2969)
Soul Search and Die Zimtzicke, I'm fairly certain "Truth is stranger than Fiction" is a proverb far older than Mark Twain. He just came up for a (really nifty) explanation why!
Die Zimtzicke - May 17, 2006 9:04 pm (#2198 of 2969)
I just like the way Twain put it. I don't know what his inspiration was.
wynnleaf - May 18, 2006 12:01 pm (#2199 of 2969)
Edited May 18, 2006 1:03 pm
In my opinion, he craves the "fame" and "celebrity" that he derides Harry for in SS. He's had to play a subordinate, "back burner" role for a long time, and he appears to be a gifted wizard. I think he resents having to be the wizard on the down low, and his resentment emerges in various inappropriate, yet highly entertaining (to the reader) ways.
I'm never quite sure where this interpretation of Snape comes from (out of canon, that is). I can't think of anywhere in the books where Snape appears to seek fame, status, etc. Of course, Fudge told Snape that he'd recommend him for an Order of Merlin for the capture of Sirius, but we know that Snape was after Sirius because he hated him and thought he was a mass murderer, not because he was looking for an award. I believe he thanked Fudge, but who wouldn't? Later, he's really upset that Sirius got away, but it's fairly clear to me that he's furious at Sirius' escape because he thinks he's a murderer and he hates him, not because he lost out on an award.
Is there a part there where Harry or one of the other kids thinks he's disappointed in not getting an award? That, of course, would only be another "Harry perspective."
School rumor had it that Snape wanted that DADA position, but even if he did apply for it each year (and he as a Dark Arts specialist surely knew it was a cursed position), how does that show any particular aspiration other than to teach the subject one would like? After all, there's no status in teaching DADA over potions.
No where else can I think of Snape attempting to get recognition. Harry has to push him into admitting that his job with the Order is to get info on LV and the DE's. And while he taunts Sirius about not doing much hanging around Grimmauld Place, he certainly isn't seeking recognition from Sirius or Harry.
So where does this notion come from? Many people seem to think this. Is there an assumption that taunting Harry for celebrity status is an indication that he wants it for himself? I know plenty of people who look down on the notion of "celebrity" who I can detect no personal desire for that status for themselves.
Maybe there's something else in canon I'm forgetting? Sorry, I don't have my books here.
haymoni - May 18, 2006 12:11 pm (#2200 of 2969)
I thought Remus said that the loss of the Order of Merlin hit Snape hard.
Perhaps it isn't what is IN canon as what is NOT in canon.
We don't hear of any trophies with Snape's name on them. We know he envied James's quidditch skills. There just seems to be a lack of public recognition when it comes to Severus Snape.
Of course we don't hear anything about Minerva or any of the other staff either...
Catherine - May 18, 2006 12:36 pm (#2201 of 2969)
Edited May 18, 2006 1:47 pm
I thought Remus said that the loss of the Order of Merlin hit Snape hard. --Haymoni
He did say this. This is one reason (and in canon!) that I think that Snape does wish to be "noted." One of the first things he says to Harry is about Harry being a "celebrity." In my opinion, this is significant, as Harry has in no way indicated to Snape that he desires celebrity. Methinks the Potions Professor doth protest too much...after all, Snape is the one who turned spy at great personal risk. Who wouldn't want some appreciation for this?
Snape also seems to relish his role as spy for the Order, as shown by the Occlumency scene in OoP. I think he enjoys telling Harry that he has that assignment.
It is also my opinion that Snape did not enjoy Slughorn indicating that Harry might equal him in Potions class.
School rumor had it that Snape wanted that DADA position, but even if he did apply for it each year (and he as a Dark Arts specialist surely knew it was a cursed position), how does that show any particular aspiration other than to teach the subject one would like? After all, there's no status in teaching DADA over potions. --Wynnleaf
Ah, but in my opinion it is the fact that he has been repeatedly refused the position by Dumbledore. He does not appear to appreciate it when Umbridge inquires as to why he has never been placed in the position. There is also no canon evidence that Snape knows that Voldemort has cursed the DADA position. It is quite possible that he knows from his associations with Dumbledore and/or Voldemort, however.
Finally, we know that Slytherins tend to be ambitious, at least as a general trait.
Of course we don't hear anything about Minerva or any of the other staff either...--Haymoni
True. Well, we know that Flitwick was a champion dueller in his youth, and we know that Madame Pomfrey thought highly of McGonagall's skills, as evidenced by her comments to Harry after McGonagall was hit in the chest at Hagrid's hut in HbP.
My interpretation of Severus Snape's words and actions in the novels indicate to me that he has "issues" with fame and acclaim (and in many ways, rightfully so).
wynnleaf - May 18, 2006 12:37 pm (#2202 of 2969)
Edited May 18, 2006 1:46 pm
Remus told Harry in POA that the problems between James and Snape were based on Snape being jealous of James' Quidditch skills. Can we seriously believe that after the rest of the books??
If Remus is also the one to say that the loss of the Order of Merlin hit Snape hard (in the same book where he made the "jealous over quidditch" comment), can we really believe this? Does Remus know Snape so well to know that he was upset about that, or was he trying to side-step the issues of what Snape was really furious about?
Sorry, I don't trust Remus' interpretations of Snape, particularly in POA where he seems to be trying to gloss over the truth of the history between the Maruaders and Snape to Harry. Besides, do we readers think that Harry understands Malfoy's motivations and desires, or vice versa? Would we assume that Snape's assessment of Remus' motivations was accurate? So why should Remus' assumptions be accurate, especially when we find out later that Snape's dislike of James had to do with a lot bigger things than Quidditch skills.
Is there any other canon evidence besides Remus' comments?
One of the first things he says to Harry is about Harry being a "celebrity." In my opinion, this is significant.
I'm curious as to why this indicates something? If someone makes fun of someone over something (wrong of course), it automatically means they wish that thing for themselves?
Snape also seems to relish his role as spy for the Order, as shown by the Occlumency scene in OoP.
I never got the impression Snape "relished" his role as a spy. He, after all, had no choice. DD seems to consider a role that puts him at "great risk." Would someone "relish" putting their life on the line constantly? Yes, he does say, when pushed by Harry, that his role is to gather the info on what LV's telling his DE's. But I don't see how that shows him relishing his role. Maybe so....
It is also my opinion that Snape did not enjoy Slughorn indicating that Harry might equal him in Potions class.
Perhaps because he knew for a fact that Harry wasn't equal to him, even if he wasn't aware that Harry was getting all that "talent" from using Snape's notes. After all, if he knew that Harry didn't have that kind of talent, he'd be pretty suspicious of why Harry appeared to have abilities that he didn't actually have.
Catherine - May 18, 2006 12:55 pm (#2203 of 2969)
Edited May 18, 2006 2:11 pm
If Remus is also the one to say that the loss of the Order of Merlin hit Snape hard (in the same book where he made the "jealous over quidditch" comment), can we really believe this? Does Remus know Snape so well to know that he was upset about that, or was he trying to side-step the issues of what Snape was really furious about?--Wynnleaf
Just because Remus did not reveal the entire unpleasant truth about James's behavior to James's son (which I think speaks of tact and a care for Harry's feelings) does not mean that Severus was not, in fact, jealous of James's skill on the Quidditch field.
I'm curious as to why this indicates something? If someone makes fun of someone over something (wrong of course), it automatically means they wish that thing for themselves? --Wynnleaf
I do not believe that I said automatically. It's not as though Snape made a casual comment about Harry Potter's celebrity status over a drink at the pub when everyone was shaking his hand. That the first words we ever see him say about Harry concern Harry's celebrity status could, in some people's opinion, elevate the importance of the remark.
It is obvious that people can choose to interpret characters' actions without suggesting that someone is not using canon evidence to support their interpretation. For example:
But I don't see how that shows him relishing his role. Maybe so.... --Wynnleaf
"...Harry convinced he had gone too far. But there was a curious, almost satisfied expression on Snape's face when her answered." "Yes, Potter, he said, his eyes glinting. "That is my job..." (OoP, 591, hardback). (emphasis mine)
Thus, the expression, the eye glint, lead me to believe that Snape enjoys having his special status acknowledged.
wynnleaf - May 18, 2006 1:11 pm (#2204 of 2969)
Edited May 18, 2006 2:23 pm
It is obvious that people can choose to interpret characters' actions in different ways without suggesting that someone is not using canon evidence to support their interpretation.
Oh, I did not intend to imply that the evidence mentioned was not in canon. I agree that we readers often interpret character's actions differently. That is part of the fun of the stories, in that the characters are 3-dimensional and have strengths and weaknesses which can cause us to interpret their comments and actions different ways. For instance, I agree that the remarks in OOTP are certainly part of canon and can be interpreted that way. However, I personally don't see that as an indication that Snape "relishes" his role. Similarly, I certainly agree that Remus made the comments he did in POA. I simply disagree with how much the reader should trust Remus' remarks about Snape.
Of course, it is surely possible that Remus is completely accurate in saying that Snape was jealous over James' Quidditch skills. But I'm not sure how Remus would know about another student's jealously, when that student was in another house and they appear to have had a strong annimosity toward one another. For instance, Harry could possibly assume that Draco was jealous of his quidditch skills, but how could he possibly really know?
Besides, saying "our group's prime enemy in school was mainly our enemy 'cause he was just jealous," --- well, that's a common remark, often said by both sides in a school-age feud. I occasionally hear that out of my own kids to explain why certain kids don't get along with them. I've rarely found it to be the real reason behind the problem.
Btw, my disagreement with the idea of Snape "relishing" his spying role may be primarily semantic. Based on a definition of "relish" as "derive or receive pleasure from; get enjoyment from; take pleasure in," I can't see in canon where Snape shows a "relish" of spying. I take the glint in his eye, etc. to indicate that he gains a satisfaction of sorts in telling Harry that spying is his job and not Harry's, but perhaps one could take it as enjoyment and pleasure from spying, or the status of that role in the Order, or something like that.
Hollywand - May 18, 2006 3:35 pm (#2205 of 2969)
Edited May 18, 2006 4:36 pm
Wynnleaf, just curious, do you think that Severus christening himself as a "Prince" is a little toward the "desires fame and immortaly" camp?
Pamzter - May 18, 2006 6:58 pm (#2206 of 2969)
New thought from from spot reading I was doing. I do think that it was Snape that Pet met. I do think Snape loved Lily. Now for new thought: I think Snape called her "Mudblood" on purpose, to create a breach between them. Perhaps to protect her from something or maybe he knew nothing could ever really happen so it was to force the issue so he could get over her. Or . . . I'm just thinking this as I'm typing . . . did he feel she'd betrayed him somehow (given James the spells he created?) and he was shooting back at her?
Magic Words - May 18, 2006 7:40 pm (#2207 of 2969)
Edited May 18, 2006 8:41 pm
Ooh, Pamzter, good thought! I don't know, though.... it would take some really quick thinking on his part. I assumed he was under emotional stress and was lashing out without thinking, but you're saying he was in control enough to size up the situation and take advantage of it, in a completely unrelated way. I guess, maybe if he'd been planning for a while to say something, so it was on his mind? I can't really see her giving James the spells. It sounds like she hated James almost as much as Snape did. He might have found them out, though, and Snape might have thought she told him.... that gets complicated. Maybe it was something else, like they'd recently had an argument about Voldemort?
Or... maybe both. He could have said it without thinking, but purposely didn't try to apologize or anything, because of what you suggested.
wynnleaf - May 18, 2006 7:44 pm (#2208 of 2969)
Edited May 18, 2006 8:46 pm
Wynnleaf, just curious, do you think that Severus christening himself as a "Prince" is a little toward the "desires fame and immortaly" camp?
I think Severus was doing something a number of very, very bright, nerdy teens do when they are also very much outsiders. On the inside, even though no one else can see it, they tell themselves that their being an outsider doesn't matter because ultimately they're better than every one else. It's a defensive mechanism and a way of feeling better about self. Lupin had never heard that title before. It's likely then that this was a private name Severus had for himself. It's an interesting way of taking aspects that others might consider negatives (being a half-blood) and a name he has some legitimate claim to (Prince), and making up a really cool name that sounds like a sort of cross between elite and mysterious. But it's a name he just uses privately. It's got a very proud sound to it.
But it appears to have been a very private name that he just had for himself. I think it's indicative of how I tend to see Snape. Very private, proud, trying to make up for insecurities -- mostly internally.
Magic Words, I agree with you. I think the situation was way too stressful for Severus' words to be anything, but reaction to the stress.
Pamzter - May 18, 2006 8:15 pm (#2209 of 2969)
How about this -- JK's chapter titles always seem to have double meaning. This one is "Snape's Worst Memory". What if it is his worst memory, not because of being turned upside down or having gray underwear, but because he called Lily a mudblood when he really loved her and ruined their friendship forever?
Hollywand - May 18, 2006 8:27 pm (#2210 of 2969)
Edited May 18, 2006 9:29 pm
Bravo, Wynnleaf, great answer! Lots of food for thought on this complex character.
****To contribute to the other dialog here, "Snape's Worst Memory" stems from his fear that Harry has the ability to turn magic used against him back upon the perpetrator, as his father James has done. James uses the Levicorpus spell on Severus to humiliate him. We don't learn until book six that Seveus invented the Levicorpus spell, which, ironically, Harry is very curious about in book six.
We see Harry turn Riddle's magic back upon him in the destruction of the diary. It's instinct with Harry; I'm pretty sure he doesn't consciously realize it (yet).
Severus is strategically smart enough to see Harry's inherent magical ability before Harry recognizes it, and hides his memory from Harry. I hope this makes sense.
Pamzter - May 19, 2006 4:34 am (#2211 of 2969)
Hmmm, I’ve never thought of Snape as proud, but rather his using “Half Blood Prince” as a derisive term against himself, as a reminder he is not worth anything. I don’t think he wants to be famous as he’s had an opportunity to singularize himself (could have been quite popular if he’d shared some of those spells to the others teens). I think this is a result of his abuse - everything got beaten out of him - all thoughts of being special, or clever, or acceptable. And being raised in an abusive home, he doesn’t know anything but to be abusive to others (and himself). If he was punished for being clever, he’s going to punish others when they try to be clever. I think he became a deatheater either because he needed to find people who would accept him in spite of his worthlessness or because he thought it was his destiny because he felt so worthless, or to prove there was a place he belonged.
By the time of the humiliation by James happened, I think Snape had already become, or decided to become, a deatheater (thus his “just you wait”) and had already planned to cut his ties to Lily and took the opportunity provided.
Catherine - Oct 7, 2005 3:48 pm (#2212 of 2969)
By the time of the humiliation by James happened, I think Snape had already become, or decided to become, a deatheater (thus his “just you wait”) and had already planned to cut his ties to Lily and took the opportunity provided.
I still don't know if I believe that Snape and Lily had ties. I always assumed that Lily was "doing the right thing" by interfering in James's heckling of Severus.
After HbP, what I want to know is how Severus may have felt about Narcissa. That she turns to him for help even though it may defy Voldemort's instructions...well, clearly she loves her son and she is quite desperate...but still....I wonder.
wynnleaf - May 19, 2006 5:36 am (#2213 of 2969)
Edited May 19, 2006 6:40 am
Pamzter,
Abuse (which I think we all assume is part of Severus' past), can take many forms and didn't necessarily have anything to do with his cleverness. I've never thought of Snape as having any lack of confidence in his intellectual abilities. Indeed, the notes in the HBP potions book display a high level on confident creativity. And remember the PS logic puzzle? That seems the kind of thing written by someone who knows he's clever and is pretty confident in it.
I agree that he's abusive toward others and perhaps to himself, and almost certainly has issues with self-worth. But that doesn't mean he's insecure intellectually.
If he was punished for being clever, he’s going to punish others when they try to be clever.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't remember examples of this except for Hermione. I see his "know-it-all" comments toward Hermione a bit differently -- more like the very creative and innovative person looking down on the quote-from-the-book, follow the instructions type person. I actually see Hermione as more intellectually insecure (relatively that is), in her need to try to answer every question, write pages and pages more than is asked for, etc.
I guess in part it has to do with how a reader responds to the name Half Blood Prince. Before the book came out, the focus was more on figuring out who the person was, not so much considering the name itself. But I always thought the name sounded way cool. Harry doesn't seem to see the name in a negative way, or self-deprecating way. He obviously thinks the HBP is pretty cool and we never see him juxtapose that with thinking that the name sounded a bit negative.
Oh, and as regards Narcissa...it's interesting that Narcissa, in her efforts to convince Severus to help Draco, focuses a lot on Severus' friendship with Lucius and relationship with Draco, but in no way seems to play on any knowledge or feeling that Severus cares for her personally. She, for instance, does not ask for his help based on any friendship with her. Given that Narcissa really, really wanted his help, I think she'd have used any attraction or friendship he'd had with her in her pleas to him. Nevertheless, Snape does act more gentle with Narcissa than we've ever seen him (possible exception later with Draco after Sectumsempra). So he may have feelings toward her.
Solitaire - May 19, 2006 6:09 am (#2214 of 2969)
I like the idea that Snape is jealous of Harry's "celebrity" ... celebrity that Snape obviously feels Harry did nothing to deserve. It would explain a lot of Snape's hostility toward Harry. I also like the suggestion that christening himself the Half-Blood Prince showed a desire for fame of his own. His mother's maiden name, Prince, would have been a good cover for it, too, had his personal nick been discovered by others. Nice suggestions, folks!
Solitaire
Pamzter - May 19, 2006 6:26 am (#2215 of 2969)
The abuse wouldn't have had to been directed at his cleverness to impact him that way - it would make him doubt everything about himself. (The abuse isn't assumed, I believe JK stated in an interview that his father was quite abusive)
I'm come to these thoughts for two reasons. The first is my experience with adults who were abused as children and the issues they face in coming to terms with themselves and accepting their own worth. The second, which may sound funny, is Alan Rickman's portrayal of Snape. If I just read the books I'd probably just hate Snape in a one-dimensional kind of way. But Rickman's portryal is so rich, I just feel all the pain.
(Plus, with Rickkman, I know how cute Snape would be if he just cleaned up a little - hehehe)
wynnleaf - May 19, 2006 8:38 am (#2216 of 2969)
Edited May 19, 2006 10:07 am
Very interesting discussion....
The abuse wouldn't have had to been directed at his cleverness to impact him that way - it would make him doubt everything about himself. (The abuse isn't assumed, I believe JK stated in an interview that his father was quite abusive)
First, unless the interview you refer to is very new, I believe that you're mistaken about that. You might check the Madam Scoop's index of quotes under the "quotes" link on the Lexicon home page, you'll find all of JKR's quotes organized according to topic. I have never found a quote where she confirmed that Snape was abused as a kid. If you know where the quote is, please let me know as it would be quite interesting to read.
As far as I know, the only evidence we have is Snape's behavior -- which could stem from a background of abuse of some sort -- and the memory that Harry sees during occlumency lessons of the small boy crying in a corner while a man with a hook nose shouts at a woman. Many assume that this at least indicates that he grew up in a verbally abusive household. Even this is not definite, based only on that one memory.
While I certainly agree that there are those for who a background of abuse makes them doubt everything about themselves, that is not (through personal knowledge) true of all who experience that. I really think the type and degree of abusive or neglected background has a lot to do with it. So I think several options, including your's, are possible.
We have to remember, too, that Snape may have other reasons, besides an abusive background, to have difficulties with self esteem. If he did indeed grow up at Spinner's End, in a half-Muggle household, then it looks likely that he came to Hogwarts fresh from a Northern England, working class, partly Muggle background, complete with accent, mannerisms etc. Then he gets put in Slytherin, where there's lots of purebloods, and he's got an awful lot to overcome. Add to that the "otherness" that many very bright kids sense around children their age, and I'd say the situation was ripe for lots of instances that would thoroughly strain the self esteem of a kid already probably insecure. Remember the memory of the bucking broomstick (I seem to recall other kid's laughing)? If he grew up on Spinner's End, he'd almost certainly never been on a broom before.
Oh, now remember that Sirius and James were from wealthy, pureblood families. Lupin is apparently pureblood, though not wealthy. Good looking, talented, etc. Was Snape just naturally jealous of them? He apparently didn't hate Lucius for being wealthy, pureblood, good looking and talented. Or did he hate them because not only were they everything he wasn't, they were bullying? That "Snivellus" nickname is the kind of thing young kids think up -- they probably gave him that name early on. And it seems to refer to crying -- sniveling, you know. No, we don't know for sure, but if a kid already felt waaaay insecure -- and in part for good reason -- would it be any surprise that he'd quickly learn to hate anyone that belittled him further?
Anyhow, why do I think there's pride there? Because that's what I see soooo much of in the outsider, very bright kids. It's not a healthy pride. It's a defensive pride. It's a way of coping and being able to tell yourself that it's okay that people don't like you, because they aren't worth the trouble anyway. You may not have the school status that they do, but it doesn't matter because you're better -- and how better? Smarter.
That may not be the way Severus is. But I've seen too many people that were like that -- and yes, some from abusive and/or neglected backgrounds -- to not think it's a strong possibility.
the issues they face in coming to terms with themselves and accepting their own worth.
I've talked a lot with adults who are both very bright and came from abusive or neglectful homes. There are some, who don't even see their intellectual ability. They have no confidence in it and see no value in it and that became something they eventually had to deal with (often when they had their own kids). But there are others who retained plenty of acceptance and knowledge of their intellectual ability and were completely secure in that, but the problem is that they saw that as practically their only means of self-worth. They almost saw their worth in terms of how good a "tool" they were, if that makes any sense.
You know, if brevity is the soul of wit, I don't have much hope, do I?
journeymom - May 19, 2006 9:08 am (#2217 of 2969)
"Lupin is apparently pureblood, though not wealthy." Lupin is a half-blood. JKR doesn't specify which, but he has one muggle parent or grandparent.
I believe Snape was neglected and that he was the little boy in that memory, simply because it fits with JKR's literary pattern. The parallels between Tom Riddle, Harry Potter and Severus Snape have been growing through out the books. Harry feels a shiver of sympathy for Merope, and Tom Riddle by extension, in HBP.
Wasn't there an essay here that suggested that Snape faked those memories for Harry to see? I suppose it's possible, but that just seems unnecessarily complicated.
I read one fanfic that made an interesting twist on Snape's little boy crying memory. It turns out that the man with the hooked nose yelling at the woman is Severus and the little boy is his son. I know, not likely, but interesting nonetheless.
der 905 - May 19, 2006 10:26 am (#2218 of 2969)
"Lupin is a half-blood. JKR doesn't specify which, but he has one muggle parent or grandparent."
In HBP Lupin says Greyback bit him to punish his father for not cooperating with him, so it's probably safe to say that his mother is the muggle.
Someone said earlier (sorry don't remember who) that JKR gives double meaning to her chapter titles. What if the double meaning of "Snape's Worst Memory" isn't that the memory of James torturing him is his worst memory, but Harry seeing it is? I mean Harry going into the pensieve and seeing what he saw becomes his worst memory and not what was actually in the pensieve.
Also, I was rereading some of the Snape scenes in the book and remembered the scene where Harry learns he's a parceltongue (spelling ?). In it he says everyone was looking at him with an expression of shock and surprise except Snape who was looking at him very shrewdly. I started to wonder if maybe Snape was studying him because he understood what Harry said. What if Snape can also speak to snakes? Sorry to bring up something off topic, but I don't recall anybody ever mentioning this, so I'm wondering if I'm way off.
Soul Mate for Sirius - May 19, 2006 10:49 am (#2219 of 2969)
Edited May 19, 2006 11:51 am
der, good thoughts on Snape possibly understanding what Harry said. But, I thought I remembered DD telling Harry that, 1) Parseltounge is a very rare gift and 2) that Harry and LV may very well be the only ones to pass through Hogwarts since Slytherin himself. I may be a bit off on that, as I don't have my books, he may have just told Harry that Harry was the only one since LV, but either way, it supports my conclusion.
So, if we are to believe DD, and I feel certain we can, then I think it's highly unlikely that Snape is a Parselmouth. First, becuase he "passed through" Hogwarts after Lv, and also because, I would assume that DD would know this bit of information about Severus. Speaking to snakes is rumored to be a mark of a Dark wisard, and I'm sure DD would keep tabs whether any of his teachers had this particular gift. And finally, I doubt LV would want another Parselmouth around. Especially one not directly related to Slytherin. He just seems too proud of his origins to allow such a gift in one of his DE's.
JM2K
-Jenn
Magic Words - May 19, 2006 11:31 am (#2220 of 2969)
But there are others who retained plenty of acceptance and knowledge of their intellectual ability and were completely secure in that, but the problem is that they saw that as practically their only means of self-worth. They almost saw their worth in terms of how good a "tool" they were, if that makes any sense. -Wynnleaf
This strikes me as making a lot of sense for Snape. He had very high positions in both the Order and the Death Eaters, but I never got the impression he was reaching for power, for its own sake. He accepted Dumbledore's leadership, and I saw no evidence of jockeying for position against other Death Eaters, as they seem to do among themselves. All he's asked is recognition for what he does accomplish. I think you're right about the pride as well, Wynnleaf.
I read an essay on the Leaky Cauldron site that looked at Snape's atrological birth chart. I don't know much about astrology, but I remember one comment about Snape that made a lot of sense- that he needs to be in control, not necessarily of everything, but of his own environment.
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rambkowalczyk - May 19, 2006 2:49 pm (#2221 of 2969)
Although I consider it unlikely that Snape is a parseltongue for the reason that Soul Mate for Sirius does, it shouldn't necessarily be ruled out. If Snape has that gift it most likely is something that Dumbledore knows about and chooses to keep from Harry. After all the kids already think he isn't to be trusted. Both Ron and Hermione were shocked to discover that Harry was Parseltongue. If Snape is Parseltongued it doesn't have to mean that he is related to Salazar Slytherin. It could just be a recessive gene.
Soul Search - May 19, 2006 3:53 pm (#2222 of 2969)
I wonder if Voldemort teaches parseltongue to the DEs. It could be the DEs "secret language." But, of course, Harry knows it too.
Die Zimtzicke - May 19, 2006 3:57 pm (#2223 of 2969)
I have major problems with the way Jo uses the word worst. I still can't believe as a Death Eater Snape's worst memory is of some petty chidlhood slight. I've said this before. I also disliked her having Ron say the worst he'd ever felt in his life was after the disastrous Quidditch game, and Harry agreed, saying "Join the club."
There are other examples. Jo has one crisis after another and it's always the worst one, until the next one. The word therefore no longer has any strong meaning for me.
Gina R Snape - May 19, 2006 4:18 pm (#2224 of 2969)
Die Zimtzicke, I think a lot of us have questioned that being Snape's worst memory. It's was hard to believe such an embarrassing moment to be the worst thing a former death eater current spy could come across. But then if you look closely, there is a lot going on in that scene to make you think. Sure, Snape was humiliated. But he was also made to suffer at the hands of his own hexes. It may have been a defining moment for him as well. The moment he lost his friendship with Lily? The moment he solidified his decision to become a DE? We don't know, but it's possible. Certainly then it might qualify as his worst memory. At least I think so. How 'bout you?
Holly T. - May 19, 2006 4:27 pm (#2225 of 2969)
I don't think we saw all of that memory.
Catherine - May 19, 2006 4:53 pm (#2226 of 2969)
I agree that we didn't see it all. JKR did indicate that this was from Snape's viewpoint, so I do wonder if there could be something else of significance that wasn't included, or obvious in that narration.
Hmmm....
wynnleaf - May 19, 2006 4:58 pm (#2227 of 2969)
JKR may have characters use the word "worst" in the same way that people often truly do throw the word around, not technically meaning the "worst," but simply really, really bad.
Gina said: It may have been a defining moment for him as well.
This is the way I think of that memory. Many times a defining moment isn't important because it's the worst, or greatest, or technically the "most" of whatever the memory is of, but because it's definitive -- it epitomizes something for the individual.
I think that memory qualified as "Snape's worst memory," not because it's technically the "worst" of anything, but because it epitomizes something for him, or he felt it defined him in some way. Of course, we don't know, as Gina said, exactly what aspect(s) of the memory is so important.
Saracene - May 20, 2006 1:10 am (#2228 of 2969)
Well, calling the chapter "One of Snape's Really Bad Memories" doesn't quite have the same zing to it,
Personally, it never occurred to me to question whether the Pensieve scene could really be Snape's worst memory, or at least one of his very worst (I believe that there were at least two other memories he removed before the lesson). I never saw any need to wonder whether there was some hidden significance to it. Snape was terribly humiliated in this scene and I think that humiliation and loss of dignity is what Snape finds unbearable most of all - especially if James really did remove his pants like he threatened to.
Ann - Dec 15, 2005 2:55 pm (#2229 of 2969)
I don't think that the "worst memory" can be one of the memories we didn't see, or a later part of the one we did. JKR put the label on the chapter, not on the Pensieve. I agree with Gina that this probably is his worst memory, because if he'd acted differently (not alienated Lily, for example), he might never have become a Death Eater. Surely a memory of the moment where he irrevocably turned toward that would sort of encompass all the more terrible things that came later.
As for the observation about Snape and Parseltongue--no, I don't think he's a Parselmouth. But after his years with Voldemort he almost certainly recognizes it, and he may even understand it a little. I'm sure Dumbledore understands it--after all, much of the conversation in the memory of the Gaunts takes place in Parseltongue. If the snaky parts were incomprehensible to Dumbledore, he would surely have asked Harry for a translation. He'd want to make certain that he hadn't missed anything important.
Fawkes Egg - May 20, 2006 6:42 am (#2230 of 2969)
I agree that this memory likely epitomizes Snape at that point in his life - alienated and at odds with the 'cool people' like James and Co. In OoTP Sirius described Snape as a 'little oddball'. Of course Sirius' opinion here is highly biased, but the memory shows Snape leaving the exam hall alone, absorbed into himself, and not surrounded by a group of friends. That, and what follows, epitomizes Snape the Alienated Loner.
But Snape and Lily as friends? I can't imagine calling a friend something as despicable as 'Mudblood' even in the heat of the mment as Snape did. Would Lily have cared so much about what was going on, and tried to stop it, if it hadn't been James doing the bullying? I think she intervened not because she was Snape's friend, but because she was naturally a kind person, and also because at that point she may have begun to harbour some latent affection for James, and so his behaviour was particularly upsetting to her.
JM2K
Solitaire - May 20, 2006 10:51 am (#2231 of 2969)
Interesting idea, Journeymom, about Snape as the hook-nosed man doing the yelling. In truth, it makes more sense to me than Snape as the child. I've always had a bit of difficulty with the idea of a Muggle abusing a Witch, while I can easily imagine Snape making a woman cry.
It isn't exactly like a Witch must put up with Muggle abuse, even if the Muggle is her husband. Even assuming she does not want to use violence or hurt him in any way, I can't believe there are not other options. A Witch could probably cast some sort of Shield Charm against physical violence. Or she could put a temporary body-bind charm on her attacker. Neither of those would hurt the attacker, and both would give her an opportunity to simply grab the child (Snape?) and disapparate. JM2K, of course ...
Solitaire
Ann - May 20, 2006 11:06 am (#2232 of 2969)
I've always thought it weird that Snape's father would have been able to abuse his mother as well. While I know (though I've never understood) that women sometimes put up with incredible abuse even if they're (physically) free to leave. But few women would allow their children to be abused.
I wonder, though--it might have been someone from her side of the family--perhaps a father or brother visiting Eileen Prince to berate her for marrying or staying with a Muggle. It doesn't seem likely that Snape's memories of himself yelling at a woman and a cowering small child would fit the patter of unpleasant memories that is set up in those Occlumency classes. He'd probably find that enjoyable.
Solitaire - May 20, 2006 11:14 am (#2233 of 2969)
Edited May 20, 2006 12:14 pm
it might have been someone from her side of the family
That makes sense, as well, Ann. I, too, am aware of the often unfathomable relationships between abusers and their victims. It just seems that the dynamics between a Muggle husband/Witch wife would allow her to prevent the abuse ... doesn't it? But perhaps some Witches are just as emotionally incapable of taking action in such situations as some Muggle women are. Who knows?
Solitaire
wynnleaf - May 20, 2006 11:34 am (#2234 of 2969)
Edited May 20, 2006 12:34 pm
Just from reading about spousal abuse situations, my understanding is that even women who could physically prevent the abuse are often still abused. There's so much emotion involved I guess. For instance, there are also battered husbands who are certainly physically capable of preventing the abuse, but don't. I don't personally understand it, but apparently it's common for the abused spouse to have the physical ability to either fight back, or to simply leave the situation, yet they don't because of the emotional and sometimes logistical contraints (such as money, children, or other ties).
Based on that, it doesn't seem unreasonable to think that a witch could be abused by her muggle husband. If she loved him, or particularly if she kept hoping things would get better, she might continue to put up with a lot.
Also, we don't actually know that there was anything beyond shouting. Surely it's not hard to imagine a witch being shouted at by her muggle husband.
As for Snape being the one doing the shouting, it's certainly possible within the parameters of what we already know. The big problem is that I wonder if JKR would introduce an entirely new group of players in the Snape/Maruader/Lily universe. I mean, who would the woman and child have been? It just seems like suddenly telling us in Book 7 that Snape had this relationship with a previously unheard of woman and (his?) son, just seems a bit too much.
Magic Words - May 20, 2006 2:16 pm (#2235 of 2969)
I assumed the man was Snape's father just because it seemed to make the most sense, if we assume the memory is important enough for JKR to show. I would also be surprised if it were an isolated incident, for the same reason. Whoever the man was, he shouted at the woman a lot, and the boy in the corner (presumably Snape) witnessed it often enough that it left a strong impression even years later. Even if it wasn't Snape's father and mother, I'd say they were people who had a lot of influence on him growing up. The biggest reason I don't think the man could be Snape is that I would have expected Harry to recognize him as an adult, but not as a small child.
Paulus Maximus - May 21, 2006 3:41 pm (#2236 of 2969)
"It isn't exactly like a Witch must put up with Muggle abuse, even if the Muggle is her husband. Even assuming she does not want to use violence or hurt him in any way, I can't believe there are not other options. A Witch could probably cast some sort of Shield Charm against physical violence. Or she could put a temporary body-bind charm on her attacker."
Why did Merope put up with Muggle abuse, then?
Choices - May 21, 2006 6:45 pm (#2237 of 2969)
She "loved" Tom and due to the abuse she suffered from her family and the fact that she tricked Tom into loving her (love potion), I'm sure she felt she deserved his ill treatment. Her father and brother made her feel worthless and she felt guilty for tricking Tom. She was a pretty needy and desperate woman.
der 905 - May 21, 2006 8:13 pm (#2238 of 2969)
Edited May 21, 2006 9:27 pm
Merope wasn't abused by Tom Riddle. She was abandoned by him when she let the potion wear off and she was on her own after that.
If you give someone a love potion, is that person able to be abusive? Could it be that if he would have been abusive anyway he would be? Does a love potion make the person only what to completely please the other and therefore incapable of hurting them? At least that's what if looked like for me when Ron was under the spell.
I wonder what Snape would be like under the influence of a love potion? Maybe Gina knows. ;-)
Solitaire - May 22, 2006 6:20 am (#2239 of 2969)
I don't know why she put up with it, Paulus. Truthfully, I am not sure Merope did have other options. A choice between her father and Muggle abuse isn't much of a choice. Perhaps she was not talented enough to do the things I suggested in my previous post.
Solitaire
Paulus Maximus - May 22, 2006 7:22 am (#2240 of 2969)
Edited May 22, 2006 8:23 am
Isn't it possible that Eileen was in the same position that Merope was in? We don't know much about the Prince family, or Eileen's talent...
journeymom - May 22, 2006 8:22 am (#2241 of 2969)
She was good at Gobstones...
Choices - May 22, 2006 9:33 am (#2242 of 2969)
der 905 - Sorry, but I consider it abuse when a husband abandons his pregnant wife and leaves her destitute and out on the streets.
Paulus Maximus - May 22, 2006 10:03 am (#2243 of 2969)
Edited May 22, 2006 11:03 am
I stand corrected; we don't know much about Eileen's talents other than that she was good at Gobstones...
Mattew Bates - May 22, 2006 10:16 am (#2244 of 2969)
We know she made it into NEWT-level potions as well, Paulus. The HBP textbook was originally hers.
wynnleaf - May 22, 2006 10:33 am (#2245 of 2969)
Edited May 22, 2006 11:36 am
While it's definitely abuse to abandon one's pregnant wife, knowingly leaving her destitute, it isn't the type of abuse that one can compare to Eileen and Tobias in the scene where he is shouting at her (probably them, I should say). I'm not talking about one being worse than the other, but simply that with Eileen, we wonder why she didn't, as a witch, do something about the abuse, whereas the only thing Merope could have done was use another love potion or imperious -- obviously not a good idea.
As to why Eileen didn't do something about the abuse, I really don't think the explanations are probably that different from real life situations. In many real life situations, the wife could -- technically -- leave the husband. But for many reasons including emotional issues, financial concerns, etc., a great many abused wives do not leave their husbands. I recall reading that many abused wives who stay in abusive situations also come from abusive backgrounds. Due to their own backgrounds, they sometimes believe that they "deserve" the abuse, or that somehow they can't get away from it. I know it probably all sounds peculiar to those of us who haven't experienced it, but still, I believe it's fairly common in abusive marriages.
As far as how this all affected Severus, I would like to repeat that we don't know from canon what kind of abusive home he came from, or even for sure that his home life was abusive. We tend to assume that because of his temperament and the memory of presumably Tobias shouting at Eileen. Still, even though it seems safe to assume that his parents were verbally abusive, it does not necessarily follow that there was physical abuse.
As a matter of fact, Severus own personality may be a hint. Snape is verbally abusive to others, but other than his physically grabbing Harry and throwing (? can't remember), him away from the pensieve in "Snape's Worst Memory," I don't think we've seen any hint that he has a tendency toward physical abusiveness. If a lot of his behavior is "learned" behavior from his parents, it may be that the nature of the abuse in his childhood is reflected in his own type of abusiveness -- verbal, but not physical.
That being said, I also tend to read Severus as a personality type that will always speak in a acerbic, sarcastic, or at least very blunt manner, even when he would not be intending to be intimidating or show anger.
Gina R Snape - May 22, 2006 11:22 am (#2246 of 2969)
LOL, I am afraid I cannot enlighten anyone here about Snape and love potions. Don't need 'em.
I agree, wynnleaf, he seems the sort to always be blunt and/or sarcastic regardless of the situation.
As for spousal abuse, if there is one thing we learned twice in HBP, it's that witches who feel emotionally crushed lose their power, their magic. Merope was abused by her family, then abandoned by the father of her child, who did not love her except under the influence of a potion. Tonks took Lupin's rejection so hard she lost her power for almost an entire year. I see no reason why Eileen Snape could not have been in a similar situation, somewhere between these two. She may have suffered at the hands of her family for marrying a muggle, then faced abuse by him. It's possible she didn't know any other way to conduct a marriage, or saw herself as having nowhere else to go and so stayed in a bad situation. Then poor little Severus grew up in an unhappy household, only to face more unhappiness at Hogwarts.
wynnleaf - May 22, 2006 12:36 pm (#2247 of 2969)
As for spousal abuse, if there is one thing we learned twice in HBP, it's that witches who feel emotionally crushed lose their power, their magic.
Gina, excellent point! Don't know how I'd forgotten that. I could also see a witch married to an abusive muggle and perhaps ostracized from her family, then loosing most of her magic, and not really knowing where to turn. Her magic becomes very weak, so she can't depend on it to solve her problems. Her family is unsupportive, so no help there. The muggle world is an unknown to her, so she can't turn that way. She could easily feel quite trapped -- and in a way, she would be trapped.
winlia - May 22, 2006 4:58 pm (#2248 of 2969)
Edited May 22, 2006 6:00 pm
Regarding the Worst Memory, I was at a dinner party years ago, and for some reason we started talking our most frightening memories. We ended up going around the table, and the range was incredible. None ended badly, but in a couple of them, the potential for real danger seemed truly high. For most of us, our imaginations had run wild, and several were very funny, though terrifying at the time. (Weirdly, I anticipated what one woman was about to say. She was an older child trick-or-treating, and saw another older kid doubled-over on the sidewalk. Peg put her hand on the girl's shoulder, and when the girl turned around, (and here's the part I anticipated) she appeared to have no facial features whatsoever. I have no idea why I expected Peg to say this. I don't believe in the supernatural, faceless people, ESP, none of that. I don't think I had heard Peg tell that story before, either. Isn't facelessness supposed to be a frequent component of dreams? I think having one's teeth fall out is as well.)
Anyway, if I were asked to tell my Worst Memory, I would think along the lines of something personal. I've seen a couple of horrible things, but mercifully, I wasn't personally involved. I would be inclined to come up with something where I was part of the action.
Ann - May 23, 2006 3:42 am (#2249 of 2969)
I agree with wynnleaf (as I so often do): Gina's point is excellent. JKR almost never puts things in these books without a purpose, and while Tonks's losing her Metamorphmagus abilities is simply part of the plot, Merope's losing her magic after Tom Sr.'s departure was one of those extraneous points thrown in that may be a big clue. I wonder if that's going to be used to explain Snape's family background (which has got to be elucidated a bit in Book 7--she's given us far too many glimpses now not to show us what it really was). I wonder if Eileen gave Tobias a love potion?
And remember the question from the WOMBATS? "Witch F fed love potion to a Muggle man, who has married her. When you went around with a wedding gift you discovered that she is using him as an occasional table." This is getting to be a bit of a leitmotif!
wynnleaf - May 23, 2006 6:49 am (#2250 of 2969)
Edited May 23, 2006 7:52 am
Thanks Ann. Is there some place we can go to find all those WOMBAT questions again? Other than the original location, that is. I hope JKR does fill us in on Snape's background. She's certainly hinted enough!
winlia,
I liked your bringing this up and I stopped and considered my own "worst memories," that is, the ones that make me feel the worst when I recall them, or things I really wouldn't want others to know. It's not anything related to deaths of people close to me, or even the horrific dog attack on one of my kids, because as scary or sad as these things were, they aren't difficult for others to know, they aren't terrible to think about, and they don't hit at my sense of self.
My own "worst memories," in the sense of not wanting others to know, tend to be deeply embarrassing things or things that were extremely hurtful to me and still are.
What I mean is that most bad memories we deal with and can revisit without too much trauma. It's the memories that still evoke the feelings that initially surrounded them that continue to be particularly bad for us. Just my opinion, anyway.
I think that could explain Snape's memories of school being "worse" than perhaps horrific, or sad things he saw as a DE.
Paulus Maximus - May 23, 2006 8:50 am (#2251 of 2969)
"As for spousal abuse, if there is one thing we learned twice in HBP, it's that witches who feel emotionally crushed lose their power, their magic."
I think Wizards do too. Lupin mentioned that if a wizard stays long enough in the presence of a Dementor, he loses his power. I don't know whether it's the same thing, but depression does seem to have a "draining" effect on wizards of both sexes.
Ann - May 23, 2006 9:25 am (#2252 of 2969)
Edited May 23, 2006 10:28 am
wynnleaf, the WOMBAT questions are still on the Lexicon site, with Steve and Belinda's discussions of the possible answers. It was apparently only the screenshots that they were asked to take down for some reason. (This makes no sense to me, but surely they took down what they were asked to.)
The link is [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
I wonder, now, if the other questions might also have some sort of correspondences with events or (as in this case) principles mentioned in the books. I liked Paulus's point equating Merope's and Tonks's loss of power due to unrequited love with the effects of a Dementor.
der 905 - May 23, 2006 10:06 am (#2253 of 2969)
"der 905 - Sorry, but I consider it abuse when a husband abandons his pregnant wife and leaves her destitute and out on the streets."
Choices, I thought I'd take this to another thread but there doesn't seem to be one on Tom Riddle Sr. Just thought I'd answer. I consider Tom Riddle a victim here not an abuser because he didn't willingly marry Merope he was tricked. He ended up with someone he didn't even like and losing his fiance and probably the woman he really loved. I think saying he should stay with Merope is like telling a rape victim she has to marry her rapist if she gets pregnant.
Also, didn't DD say Merope willingly stopped using magic, or gave it up completely when Riddle left not that she lost her magical abilities?
Choices - May 23, 2006 10:18 am (#2254 of 2969)
I sort of half agree der 905 - however, Tom could have at least seen Merope through her pregnancy and taken care of baby Tom. After all, it was not baby Tom's fault that his mother tricked his father. She did love him. I just think Tom, Sr. was unnecessarily cruel to Merope and the baby.
wynnleaf - May 23, 2006 3:12 pm (#2255 of 2969)
Maybe not so needlessly cruel to Merope, but certainly to the baby. Particularly given that we're talking about a wealthy person who could easily do something, versus a person with no resources at all except magic. Of course, I suppose one might argue that Tom, Sr. could assume that as a witch, Merope had all the resources she needed.
Ann - May 23, 2006 6:24 pm (#2256 of 2969)
Edited May 23, 2006 7:26 pm
I agree completely with der 905--Tom Riddle Sr., regardless of what a twit he seemed to be, is hardly responsible for his actions if he's been given a strong love potion (particularly if he doesn't even suspect that love potions exist). To come out of the sort of fog that we saw Ron Weasley in, only to find that he's married someone he used to make fun of and that she's pregnant by him.... Well, it must have been a terrible shock and one can hardly blame him for being very angry indeed. It seems to have lost him his girl friend as well (since he's still living with his parents 16 years later, even thought Merope was long dead.)
While it's true that a nobler person might take the innocent child into consideration, I don't think one can demand that Tom Sr. do so. He quite understandably simply wanted to get away from the whole thing. I can't really blame him for his lack of concern--a rape is an excellent parallel, except that the man doesn't carry the child, so he would not even have that connection to him. If Tom Sr. had made a bad choice, it would be one thing, but she gave him no choice at all. Just because Merope was treated horribly by her family does not mean she was a nice person. One can see a little of her selfish and inconsiderate son in her--it wasn't just the lack of love that made Voldemort what he is.
Catherine - May 24, 2006 3:59 am (#2257 of 2969)
let's get back to Severus Snape!
Feel free to continue the discussion about Merope and Riddle Sr. in the appropriate thread; I suggest either the Lord Voldemort/Tom Riddle thread or the Merope Gaunt Riddle thread.
Madame Pomfrey - May 25, 2006 2:00 pm (#2258 of 2969)
Choices,I would like to respond to your post #2254 over on the Merope thread.
der 905 - May 25, 2006 11:01 pm (#2259 of 2969)
Since there hasn't been any posts for awhile, I thought I could bring up a new subject that I believe hasn't really been discussed, only implied or briefly touched on.
We know for a fact that Snape only takes students with Outstandings in his NEWT's. And Snape stated in his first class that he was surprised that so many students got O's considering the teachers they've had over the years, which leads me to believe that his rule about only Outstanding students allowed still applied with his DADA class. Now, we know that Hermione and Ron got E's, which I understood that it meant Snape made an exception for them and allowed them in his class, either because he felt they would need it or more likely because DD persuaded him to allow them in.
From the previous post, I've gotten the impression that no one else read it this way. Some of you seem to believe that Snape lowered his standards because he finally got to teach the subject he liked. Or that since it was his first time teaching it, he couldn't really enforce his rule. I was wondering why you believed that? Is your interpretation of those scenes based on your opinion or is there something in the books I missed? Or mayby something in an interview JKR gave that I'm not aware of?
If I've read those scenes wrong, I would appreciate any help you could give me and correcting my misinterpretation. :-)
haymoni - May 26, 2006 5:24 am (#2260 of 2969)
I would guess that since it was his first year teaching the subject, he really couldn't set standards at all.
In Potions, he had taught all of these kids from day one, so he knew what they should be capable of.
With DADA, he probably needed to teach everyone that showed above average aptitude, especially with Voldy being back.
Gina R Snape - May 26, 2006 6:10 am (#2261 of 2969)
I took it to mean he was surprised so many people passed at all. He was being snide, yet at the same time giving a backhanded compliment.
wynnleaf - May 26, 2006 6:19 am (#2262 of 2969)
There was absolutely nothing mentioned about anyone with E's in DADA getting in as an exception. Therefore, I think we can assume that all O's and E's could be in the class.
I wouldn't call that a relaxing of standards. Snape's goals for potions, his teaching practices etc., would naturally be different -- it's a completely different field of study, after all. The fact that he allowed E's in DADA is also natural because it's the first year he'd taught the course, with the previous practice evidently being that E's could take the class.
I saw this discussion going on in a HP yahoo group. It seemed the intent was to figure out whether as many of Snape's students got O's as the DADA students coming off of a long serious of usually incompetent teachers. Frankly, I don't think you can tell because there's no way to figure out how many DADA students had received O's and how many had received E's.
Ann - May 26, 2006 2:29 pm (#2263 of 2969)
I agree that Snape, at the beginning of his time in the subject, wasn't in a position to keep people out of the class. He may have even had to admit anyone with a passing grade--probably a good idea anyway, under these wartime circumstances.
After all, people planning to take the course would already have bought their books by the first day of classes (just as Harry and Ron haven't bought their Potions books). There would be no way that Snape could tell them that, nope, I only take students with a grade of Outstanding. I bet he would in subsequent years, though (assuming there is any possibility of anyone ever teaching for more than one year, which he must know there is not).
Hollywand - May 26, 2006 5:38 pm (#2264 of 2969)
Edited May 26, 2006 6:39 pm
Maybe Dumbledore gave the final grades last year with Delores displaced in her teaching position---and Dumbledore wants as many students as possible to learn Defense Against the Dark Arts. Dumbledore often gives extra credit for special circumstances, and perhaps participating in Dumbledore's Army and the Ministry for Magic events count as extra.
Solitaire - May 27, 2006 8:49 am (#2265 of 2969)
Edited May 27, 2006 9:53 am
I thought McGonagall's comment "that Professor Snape absolutely refuses to take students who get anything other than "Outstanding" in their OWLs" was made in reference to his Potions class. Perhaps this is the reason Dumbledore felt he had to switch Snape out of Potions--because Dumbledore knew Harry needed to continue with Advanced Potions, and this was the only way he could ensure that it happened.
Even if Dumbledore had convinced Snape to allow Harry into Advanced Potions (despite a lower grade), Harry would probably not have done as well as he did with Professor Slughorn. The Prince's book notwithstanding, I believe Slughorn's demeanor and classroom environment were more conducive to Harry's success than Snape's would have been. It's hard for even the best student to succeed in a difficult subject when the teacher is continually demeaning and undermining his or her abilities and sabotaging the successes he or she does manage to achieve.
I also agree with Hollywand ... the kids' performance at the DoM surely must have counted for something toward their DADA scores. If nothing else, it proved they managed to learn despite Umbridge's incompetent performance as a teacher. And of course Dumbledore knew the real reason they did learn!
Solitaire
wynnleaf - May 27, 2006 12:29 pm (#2266 of 2969)
Edited May 27, 2006 1:29 pm
We know that the kids in the DA learned a lot more about DADA then they did in class. Still, it looks like there were a number of other kids passing the OWLs sufficiently to get into NEWT level classes -- despite the fact that they'd had mostly inferior teachers for years. Maybe it's not as exacting a field of study and therefore not as hard a class to do well in. Sort of like more people seeming to do well in history or English literature classes than in physics.
While I think Harry's situation was a nice benefit of moving Snape to DADA class, I don't think that was the primary reason behind Dumbledore's decision. I'd expect that more important was that he knew Hogwarts was going to loose Snape at the end of the year, which would mean not only having to replace the potions teacher, but also the head of house for Slytherin. Dumbledore wanted to connect with Slughorn anyway, and Slughorn would be safer from LV while at Hogwarts. So I think the fact that Dumbledore wanted Slughorn as a replacement for Snape -- both in potions and Slytherin House -- plus the information he could provide about LV and horcruxes, was the primary reason for getting Slughorn.
After all, if Harry eventually becomes an Auror, it will be after the time period of Book 7 -- and JKR, through Dumbledore, needs to accomplish things for the coming book, not so much for what will happen after the books are all done.
Of course, Dumbledore might see that Harry needs some more training in potions. But actually, Harry didn't do too badly in potions in the first 5 years. He got an E, after all. I imagine DD could have got Snape to take him on in 6th year potions, and Harry would probably have done just as well as he'd done all along -- about E level.
Snape was certainly very unpleasant to Harry, and yes one can argue that his teaching style isn't condusive to the best learning. But you can't get around the fact that Harry did pull an E on his OWL -- and he wasn't the type to be feverishly studying out-of-class material on his own. So he got that E from what he'd learned under Snape. Yes, Hermione helped, too, but I think the big difference in the OWLs wasn't that he'd learned so much extra from Hermione, but that in the OWLs, he didn't have Snape around making him nervous while he brewed the potions.
mooncalf - May 27, 2006 1:42 pm (#2267 of 2969)
I would have assumed that the change in teachers had come about late enough in the summer that the class lists had already been posted. Snape would not have been able to refuse students after their letters had been sent out, no matter what his standards were,
Catherine - May 27, 2006 3:51 pm (#2268 of 2969)
Edited May 27, 2006 4:52 pm
Yes, Hermione helped, too, but I think the big difference in the OWLs wasn't that he'd learned so much extra from Hermione, but that in the OWLs, he didn't have Snape around making him nervous while he brewed the potions.
I agree with this, but I think the experience of watching Hermione brew Polyjuice Potion, drinking Polyjuice Potion, and experiencing the "fake" Moody certainly helped Harry recognize the Polyjuice Potion on the O.W.L. I'll bet that helped him get an "E."
Snape also taught at at very high level, at least if Umbridge is to be believed when she observed Snape's class in OoP. Despite Snape's criticisms of his students, Umbridge seemed to believe that the students were advanced for their level (and also didn't want the students learning how to make Strengthening Solution.)
Ann - May 27, 2006 4:10 pm (#2269 of 2969)
Edited May 27, 2006 5:14 pm
I think, actually, that Snape's real love is Potions, and that's the subject that he wants to teach. He probably has applied for DADA every year because he had been ordered by Voldemort to apply for that position, because Voldemort knew it would only be for a year. Despite what he says in the Spinners End chapter, I think he really did believe that Voldemort would return eventually (Dumbledore and Hagrid certainly did) and he wanted to be able to say "Dumbledore just wouldn't let me have it." As he did to Voldemort when he returned, and as he did to Bellatrix in that chapter.
But in fact, Dumbledore and Snape both knew the job was cursed, and Dumbledore wanted Snape at Hogwarts for all sorts of obvious reasons (one of which *may* have been that his Potions students learned a lot, despite Solitaire's doubts on that head). I think the switch to DADA was clearly made after Dumbledore knew that Snape would be killing him by the end of the year, and I think it fulfilled all sorts of purposes: making it possible for Harry to get the courses he needs in for the Aurors' program, getting Slughorn to Hogwarts (for the memory and to take over Slytherin when Snape left), and most important of all, ensuring that all of the students knew as much about Defense as Snape could teach them. And after teachers like Lockhart and Quirrell and Umbridge, what Snape could teach them was no doubt a considerable addition to their skills, and will, I suspect be much in requisition in book 7.
Solitaire - May 27, 2006 4:45 pm (#2270 of 2969)
I agree, Ann, that Snape's DADA lessons will come into play in Book 7--particularly wordless magic. I got the definite impression that it was Harry's inability to use wordless spells proficiently that allowed Snape and Draco to escape following Dumbledore's murder. This makes me believe it will be something that must be mastered--and quickly--if Harry is to defeat Voldemort. JM2K ...
Solitaire
Although I consider it unlikely that Snape is a parseltongue for the reason that Soul Mate for Sirius does, it shouldn't necessarily be ruled out. If Snape has that gift it most likely is something that Dumbledore knows about and chooses to keep from Harry. After all the kids already think he isn't to be trusted. Both Ron and Hermione were shocked to discover that Harry was Parseltongue. If Snape is Parseltongued it doesn't have to mean that he is related to Salazar Slytherin. It could just be a recessive gene.
Soul Search - May 19, 2006 3:53 pm (#2222 of 2969)
I wonder if Voldemort teaches parseltongue to the DEs. It could be the DEs "secret language." But, of course, Harry knows it too.
Die Zimtzicke - May 19, 2006 3:57 pm (#2223 of 2969)
I have major problems with the way Jo uses the word worst. I still can't believe as a Death Eater Snape's worst memory is of some petty chidlhood slight. I've said this before. I also disliked her having Ron say the worst he'd ever felt in his life was after the disastrous Quidditch game, and Harry agreed, saying "Join the club."
There are other examples. Jo has one crisis after another and it's always the worst one, until the next one. The word therefore no longer has any strong meaning for me.
Gina R Snape - May 19, 2006 4:18 pm (#2224 of 2969)
Die Zimtzicke, I think a lot of us have questioned that being Snape's worst memory. It's was hard to believe such an embarrassing moment to be the worst thing a former death eater current spy could come across. But then if you look closely, there is a lot going on in that scene to make you think. Sure, Snape was humiliated. But he was also made to suffer at the hands of his own hexes. It may have been a defining moment for him as well. The moment he lost his friendship with Lily? The moment he solidified his decision to become a DE? We don't know, but it's possible. Certainly then it might qualify as his worst memory. At least I think so. How 'bout you?
Holly T. - May 19, 2006 4:27 pm (#2225 of 2969)
I don't think we saw all of that memory.
Catherine - May 19, 2006 4:53 pm (#2226 of 2969)
I agree that we didn't see it all. JKR did indicate that this was from Snape's viewpoint, so I do wonder if there could be something else of significance that wasn't included, or obvious in that narration.
Hmmm....
wynnleaf - May 19, 2006 4:58 pm (#2227 of 2969)
JKR may have characters use the word "worst" in the same way that people often truly do throw the word around, not technically meaning the "worst," but simply really, really bad.
Gina said: It may have been a defining moment for him as well.
This is the way I think of that memory. Many times a defining moment isn't important because it's the worst, or greatest, or technically the "most" of whatever the memory is of, but because it's definitive -- it epitomizes something for the individual.
I think that memory qualified as "Snape's worst memory," not because it's technically the "worst" of anything, but because it epitomizes something for him, or he felt it defined him in some way. Of course, we don't know, as Gina said, exactly what aspect(s) of the memory is so important.
Saracene - May 20, 2006 1:10 am (#2228 of 2969)
Well, calling the chapter "One of Snape's Really Bad Memories" doesn't quite have the same zing to it,
Personally, it never occurred to me to question whether the Pensieve scene could really be Snape's worst memory, or at least one of his very worst (I believe that there were at least two other memories he removed before the lesson). I never saw any need to wonder whether there was some hidden significance to it. Snape was terribly humiliated in this scene and I think that humiliation and loss of dignity is what Snape finds unbearable most of all - especially if James really did remove his pants like he threatened to.
Ann - Dec 15, 2005 2:55 pm (#2229 of 2969)
I don't think that the "worst memory" can be one of the memories we didn't see, or a later part of the one we did. JKR put the label on the chapter, not on the Pensieve. I agree with Gina that this probably is his worst memory, because if he'd acted differently (not alienated Lily, for example), he might never have become a Death Eater. Surely a memory of the moment where he irrevocably turned toward that would sort of encompass all the more terrible things that came later.
As for the observation about Snape and Parseltongue--no, I don't think he's a Parselmouth. But after his years with Voldemort he almost certainly recognizes it, and he may even understand it a little. I'm sure Dumbledore understands it--after all, much of the conversation in the memory of the Gaunts takes place in Parseltongue. If the snaky parts were incomprehensible to Dumbledore, he would surely have asked Harry for a translation. He'd want to make certain that he hadn't missed anything important.
Fawkes Egg - May 20, 2006 6:42 am (#2230 of 2969)
I agree that this memory likely epitomizes Snape at that point in his life - alienated and at odds with the 'cool people' like James and Co. In OoTP Sirius described Snape as a 'little oddball'. Of course Sirius' opinion here is highly biased, but the memory shows Snape leaving the exam hall alone, absorbed into himself, and not surrounded by a group of friends. That, and what follows, epitomizes Snape the Alienated Loner.
But Snape and Lily as friends? I can't imagine calling a friend something as despicable as 'Mudblood' even in the heat of the mment as Snape did. Would Lily have cared so much about what was going on, and tried to stop it, if it hadn't been James doing the bullying? I think she intervened not because she was Snape's friend, but because she was naturally a kind person, and also because at that point she may have begun to harbour some latent affection for James, and so his behaviour was particularly upsetting to her.
JM2K
Solitaire - May 20, 2006 10:51 am (#2231 of 2969)
Interesting idea, Journeymom, about Snape as the hook-nosed man doing the yelling. In truth, it makes more sense to me than Snape as the child. I've always had a bit of difficulty with the idea of a Muggle abusing a Witch, while I can easily imagine Snape making a woman cry.
It isn't exactly like a Witch must put up with Muggle abuse, even if the Muggle is her husband. Even assuming she does not want to use violence or hurt him in any way, I can't believe there are not other options. A Witch could probably cast some sort of Shield Charm against physical violence. Or she could put a temporary body-bind charm on her attacker. Neither of those would hurt the attacker, and both would give her an opportunity to simply grab the child (Snape?) and disapparate. JM2K, of course ...
Solitaire
Ann - May 20, 2006 11:06 am (#2232 of 2969)
I've always thought it weird that Snape's father would have been able to abuse his mother as well. While I know (though I've never understood) that women sometimes put up with incredible abuse even if they're (physically) free to leave. But few women would allow their children to be abused.
I wonder, though--it might have been someone from her side of the family--perhaps a father or brother visiting Eileen Prince to berate her for marrying or staying with a Muggle. It doesn't seem likely that Snape's memories of himself yelling at a woman and a cowering small child would fit the patter of unpleasant memories that is set up in those Occlumency classes. He'd probably find that enjoyable.
Solitaire - May 20, 2006 11:14 am (#2233 of 2969)
Edited May 20, 2006 12:14 pm
it might have been someone from her side of the family
That makes sense, as well, Ann. I, too, am aware of the often unfathomable relationships between abusers and their victims. It just seems that the dynamics between a Muggle husband/Witch wife would allow her to prevent the abuse ... doesn't it? But perhaps some Witches are just as emotionally incapable of taking action in such situations as some Muggle women are. Who knows?
Solitaire
wynnleaf - May 20, 2006 11:34 am (#2234 of 2969)
Edited May 20, 2006 12:34 pm
Just from reading about spousal abuse situations, my understanding is that even women who could physically prevent the abuse are often still abused. There's so much emotion involved I guess. For instance, there are also battered husbands who are certainly physically capable of preventing the abuse, but don't. I don't personally understand it, but apparently it's common for the abused spouse to have the physical ability to either fight back, or to simply leave the situation, yet they don't because of the emotional and sometimes logistical contraints (such as money, children, or other ties).
Based on that, it doesn't seem unreasonable to think that a witch could be abused by her muggle husband. If she loved him, or particularly if she kept hoping things would get better, she might continue to put up with a lot.
Also, we don't actually know that there was anything beyond shouting. Surely it's not hard to imagine a witch being shouted at by her muggle husband.
As for Snape being the one doing the shouting, it's certainly possible within the parameters of what we already know. The big problem is that I wonder if JKR would introduce an entirely new group of players in the Snape/Maruader/Lily universe. I mean, who would the woman and child have been? It just seems like suddenly telling us in Book 7 that Snape had this relationship with a previously unheard of woman and (his?) son, just seems a bit too much.
Magic Words - May 20, 2006 2:16 pm (#2235 of 2969)
I assumed the man was Snape's father just because it seemed to make the most sense, if we assume the memory is important enough for JKR to show. I would also be surprised if it were an isolated incident, for the same reason. Whoever the man was, he shouted at the woman a lot, and the boy in the corner (presumably Snape) witnessed it often enough that it left a strong impression even years later. Even if it wasn't Snape's father and mother, I'd say they were people who had a lot of influence on him growing up. The biggest reason I don't think the man could be Snape is that I would have expected Harry to recognize him as an adult, but not as a small child.
Paulus Maximus - May 21, 2006 3:41 pm (#2236 of 2969)
"It isn't exactly like a Witch must put up with Muggle abuse, even if the Muggle is her husband. Even assuming she does not want to use violence or hurt him in any way, I can't believe there are not other options. A Witch could probably cast some sort of Shield Charm against physical violence. Or she could put a temporary body-bind charm on her attacker."
Why did Merope put up with Muggle abuse, then?
Choices - May 21, 2006 6:45 pm (#2237 of 2969)
She "loved" Tom and due to the abuse she suffered from her family and the fact that she tricked Tom into loving her (love potion), I'm sure she felt she deserved his ill treatment. Her father and brother made her feel worthless and she felt guilty for tricking Tom. She was a pretty needy and desperate woman.
der 905 - May 21, 2006 8:13 pm (#2238 of 2969)
Edited May 21, 2006 9:27 pm
Merope wasn't abused by Tom Riddle. She was abandoned by him when she let the potion wear off and she was on her own after that.
If you give someone a love potion, is that person able to be abusive? Could it be that if he would have been abusive anyway he would be? Does a love potion make the person only what to completely please the other and therefore incapable of hurting them? At least that's what if looked like for me when Ron was under the spell.
I wonder what Snape would be like under the influence of a love potion? Maybe Gina knows. ;-)
Solitaire - May 22, 2006 6:20 am (#2239 of 2969)
I don't know why she put up with it, Paulus. Truthfully, I am not sure Merope did have other options. A choice between her father and Muggle abuse isn't much of a choice. Perhaps she was not talented enough to do the things I suggested in my previous post.
Solitaire
Paulus Maximus - May 22, 2006 7:22 am (#2240 of 2969)
Edited May 22, 2006 8:23 am
Isn't it possible that Eileen was in the same position that Merope was in? We don't know much about the Prince family, or Eileen's talent...
journeymom - May 22, 2006 8:22 am (#2241 of 2969)
She was good at Gobstones...
Choices - May 22, 2006 9:33 am (#2242 of 2969)
der 905 - Sorry, but I consider it abuse when a husband abandons his pregnant wife and leaves her destitute and out on the streets.
Paulus Maximus - May 22, 2006 10:03 am (#2243 of 2969)
Edited May 22, 2006 11:03 am
I stand corrected; we don't know much about Eileen's talents other than that she was good at Gobstones...
Mattew Bates - May 22, 2006 10:16 am (#2244 of 2969)
We know she made it into NEWT-level potions as well, Paulus. The HBP textbook was originally hers.
wynnleaf - May 22, 2006 10:33 am (#2245 of 2969)
Edited May 22, 2006 11:36 am
While it's definitely abuse to abandon one's pregnant wife, knowingly leaving her destitute, it isn't the type of abuse that one can compare to Eileen and Tobias in the scene where he is shouting at her (probably them, I should say). I'm not talking about one being worse than the other, but simply that with Eileen, we wonder why she didn't, as a witch, do something about the abuse, whereas the only thing Merope could have done was use another love potion or imperious -- obviously not a good idea.
As to why Eileen didn't do something about the abuse, I really don't think the explanations are probably that different from real life situations. In many real life situations, the wife could -- technically -- leave the husband. But for many reasons including emotional issues, financial concerns, etc., a great many abused wives do not leave their husbands. I recall reading that many abused wives who stay in abusive situations also come from abusive backgrounds. Due to their own backgrounds, they sometimes believe that they "deserve" the abuse, or that somehow they can't get away from it. I know it probably all sounds peculiar to those of us who haven't experienced it, but still, I believe it's fairly common in abusive marriages.
As far as how this all affected Severus, I would like to repeat that we don't know from canon what kind of abusive home he came from, or even for sure that his home life was abusive. We tend to assume that because of his temperament and the memory of presumably Tobias shouting at Eileen. Still, even though it seems safe to assume that his parents were verbally abusive, it does not necessarily follow that there was physical abuse.
As a matter of fact, Severus own personality may be a hint. Snape is verbally abusive to others, but other than his physically grabbing Harry and throwing (? can't remember), him away from the pensieve in "Snape's Worst Memory," I don't think we've seen any hint that he has a tendency toward physical abusiveness. If a lot of his behavior is "learned" behavior from his parents, it may be that the nature of the abuse in his childhood is reflected in his own type of abusiveness -- verbal, but not physical.
That being said, I also tend to read Severus as a personality type that will always speak in a acerbic, sarcastic, or at least very blunt manner, even when he would not be intending to be intimidating or show anger.
Gina R Snape - May 22, 2006 11:22 am (#2246 of 2969)
LOL, I am afraid I cannot enlighten anyone here about Snape and love potions. Don't need 'em.
I agree, wynnleaf, he seems the sort to always be blunt and/or sarcastic regardless of the situation.
As for spousal abuse, if there is one thing we learned twice in HBP, it's that witches who feel emotionally crushed lose their power, their magic. Merope was abused by her family, then abandoned by the father of her child, who did not love her except under the influence of a potion. Tonks took Lupin's rejection so hard she lost her power for almost an entire year. I see no reason why Eileen Snape could not have been in a similar situation, somewhere between these two. She may have suffered at the hands of her family for marrying a muggle, then faced abuse by him. It's possible she didn't know any other way to conduct a marriage, or saw herself as having nowhere else to go and so stayed in a bad situation. Then poor little Severus grew up in an unhappy household, only to face more unhappiness at Hogwarts.
wynnleaf - May 22, 2006 12:36 pm (#2247 of 2969)
As for spousal abuse, if there is one thing we learned twice in HBP, it's that witches who feel emotionally crushed lose their power, their magic.
Gina, excellent point! Don't know how I'd forgotten that. I could also see a witch married to an abusive muggle and perhaps ostracized from her family, then loosing most of her magic, and not really knowing where to turn. Her magic becomes very weak, so she can't depend on it to solve her problems. Her family is unsupportive, so no help there. The muggle world is an unknown to her, so she can't turn that way. She could easily feel quite trapped -- and in a way, she would be trapped.
winlia - May 22, 2006 4:58 pm (#2248 of 2969)
Edited May 22, 2006 6:00 pm
Regarding the Worst Memory, I was at a dinner party years ago, and for some reason we started talking our most frightening memories. We ended up going around the table, and the range was incredible. None ended badly, but in a couple of them, the potential for real danger seemed truly high. For most of us, our imaginations had run wild, and several were very funny, though terrifying at the time. (Weirdly, I anticipated what one woman was about to say. She was an older child trick-or-treating, and saw another older kid doubled-over on the sidewalk. Peg put her hand on the girl's shoulder, and when the girl turned around, (and here's the part I anticipated) she appeared to have no facial features whatsoever. I have no idea why I expected Peg to say this. I don't believe in the supernatural, faceless people, ESP, none of that. I don't think I had heard Peg tell that story before, either. Isn't facelessness supposed to be a frequent component of dreams? I think having one's teeth fall out is as well.)
Anyway, if I were asked to tell my Worst Memory, I would think along the lines of something personal. I've seen a couple of horrible things, but mercifully, I wasn't personally involved. I would be inclined to come up with something where I was part of the action.
Ann - May 23, 2006 3:42 am (#2249 of 2969)
I agree with wynnleaf (as I so often do): Gina's point is excellent. JKR almost never puts things in these books without a purpose, and while Tonks's losing her Metamorphmagus abilities is simply part of the plot, Merope's losing her magic after Tom Sr.'s departure was one of those extraneous points thrown in that may be a big clue. I wonder if that's going to be used to explain Snape's family background (which has got to be elucidated a bit in Book 7--she's given us far too many glimpses now not to show us what it really was). I wonder if Eileen gave Tobias a love potion?
And remember the question from the WOMBATS? "Witch F fed love potion to a Muggle man, who has married her. When you went around with a wedding gift you discovered that she is using him as an occasional table." This is getting to be a bit of a leitmotif!
wynnleaf - May 23, 2006 6:49 am (#2250 of 2969)
Edited May 23, 2006 7:52 am
Thanks Ann. Is there some place we can go to find all those WOMBAT questions again? Other than the original location, that is. I hope JKR does fill us in on Snape's background. She's certainly hinted enough!
winlia,
I liked your bringing this up and I stopped and considered my own "worst memories," that is, the ones that make me feel the worst when I recall them, or things I really wouldn't want others to know. It's not anything related to deaths of people close to me, or even the horrific dog attack on one of my kids, because as scary or sad as these things were, they aren't difficult for others to know, they aren't terrible to think about, and they don't hit at my sense of self.
My own "worst memories," in the sense of not wanting others to know, tend to be deeply embarrassing things or things that were extremely hurtful to me and still are.
What I mean is that most bad memories we deal with and can revisit without too much trauma. It's the memories that still evoke the feelings that initially surrounded them that continue to be particularly bad for us. Just my opinion, anyway.
I think that could explain Snape's memories of school being "worse" than perhaps horrific, or sad things he saw as a DE.
Paulus Maximus - May 23, 2006 8:50 am (#2251 of 2969)
"As for spousal abuse, if there is one thing we learned twice in HBP, it's that witches who feel emotionally crushed lose their power, their magic."
I think Wizards do too. Lupin mentioned that if a wizard stays long enough in the presence of a Dementor, he loses his power. I don't know whether it's the same thing, but depression does seem to have a "draining" effect on wizards of both sexes.
Ann - May 23, 2006 9:25 am (#2252 of 2969)
Edited May 23, 2006 10:28 am
wynnleaf, the WOMBAT questions are still on the Lexicon site, with Steve and Belinda's discussions of the possible answers. It was apparently only the screenshots that they were asked to take down for some reason. (This makes no sense to me, but surely they took down what they were asked to.)
The link is [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
I wonder, now, if the other questions might also have some sort of correspondences with events or (as in this case) principles mentioned in the books. I liked Paulus's point equating Merope's and Tonks's loss of power due to unrequited love with the effects of a Dementor.
der 905 - May 23, 2006 10:06 am (#2253 of 2969)
"der 905 - Sorry, but I consider it abuse when a husband abandons his pregnant wife and leaves her destitute and out on the streets."
Choices, I thought I'd take this to another thread but there doesn't seem to be one on Tom Riddle Sr. Just thought I'd answer. I consider Tom Riddle a victim here not an abuser because he didn't willingly marry Merope he was tricked. He ended up with someone he didn't even like and losing his fiance and probably the woman he really loved. I think saying he should stay with Merope is like telling a rape victim she has to marry her rapist if she gets pregnant.
Also, didn't DD say Merope willingly stopped using magic, or gave it up completely when Riddle left not that she lost her magical abilities?
Choices - May 23, 2006 10:18 am (#2254 of 2969)
I sort of half agree der 905 - however, Tom could have at least seen Merope through her pregnancy and taken care of baby Tom. After all, it was not baby Tom's fault that his mother tricked his father. She did love him. I just think Tom, Sr. was unnecessarily cruel to Merope and the baby.
wynnleaf - May 23, 2006 3:12 pm (#2255 of 2969)
Maybe not so needlessly cruel to Merope, but certainly to the baby. Particularly given that we're talking about a wealthy person who could easily do something, versus a person with no resources at all except magic. Of course, I suppose one might argue that Tom, Sr. could assume that as a witch, Merope had all the resources she needed.
Ann - May 23, 2006 6:24 pm (#2256 of 2969)
Edited May 23, 2006 7:26 pm
I agree completely with der 905--Tom Riddle Sr., regardless of what a twit he seemed to be, is hardly responsible for his actions if he's been given a strong love potion (particularly if he doesn't even suspect that love potions exist). To come out of the sort of fog that we saw Ron Weasley in, only to find that he's married someone he used to make fun of and that she's pregnant by him.... Well, it must have been a terrible shock and one can hardly blame him for being very angry indeed. It seems to have lost him his girl friend as well (since he's still living with his parents 16 years later, even thought Merope was long dead.)
While it's true that a nobler person might take the innocent child into consideration, I don't think one can demand that Tom Sr. do so. He quite understandably simply wanted to get away from the whole thing. I can't really blame him for his lack of concern--a rape is an excellent parallel, except that the man doesn't carry the child, so he would not even have that connection to him. If Tom Sr. had made a bad choice, it would be one thing, but she gave him no choice at all. Just because Merope was treated horribly by her family does not mean she was a nice person. One can see a little of her selfish and inconsiderate son in her--it wasn't just the lack of love that made Voldemort what he is.
Catherine - May 24, 2006 3:59 am (#2257 of 2969)
let's get back to Severus Snape!
Feel free to continue the discussion about Merope and Riddle Sr. in the appropriate thread; I suggest either the Lord Voldemort/Tom Riddle thread or the Merope Gaunt Riddle thread.
Madame Pomfrey - May 25, 2006 2:00 pm (#2258 of 2969)
Choices,I would like to respond to your post #2254 over on the Merope thread.
der 905 - May 25, 2006 11:01 pm (#2259 of 2969)
Since there hasn't been any posts for awhile, I thought I could bring up a new subject that I believe hasn't really been discussed, only implied or briefly touched on.
We know for a fact that Snape only takes students with Outstandings in his NEWT's. And Snape stated in his first class that he was surprised that so many students got O's considering the teachers they've had over the years, which leads me to believe that his rule about only Outstanding students allowed still applied with his DADA class. Now, we know that Hermione and Ron got E's, which I understood that it meant Snape made an exception for them and allowed them in his class, either because he felt they would need it or more likely because DD persuaded him to allow them in.
From the previous post, I've gotten the impression that no one else read it this way. Some of you seem to believe that Snape lowered his standards because he finally got to teach the subject he liked. Or that since it was his first time teaching it, he couldn't really enforce his rule. I was wondering why you believed that? Is your interpretation of those scenes based on your opinion or is there something in the books I missed? Or mayby something in an interview JKR gave that I'm not aware of?
If I've read those scenes wrong, I would appreciate any help you could give me and correcting my misinterpretation. :-)
haymoni - May 26, 2006 5:24 am (#2260 of 2969)
I would guess that since it was his first year teaching the subject, he really couldn't set standards at all.
In Potions, he had taught all of these kids from day one, so he knew what they should be capable of.
With DADA, he probably needed to teach everyone that showed above average aptitude, especially with Voldy being back.
Gina R Snape - May 26, 2006 6:10 am (#2261 of 2969)
I took it to mean he was surprised so many people passed at all. He was being snide, yet at the same time giving a backhanded compliment.
wynnleaf - May 26, 2006 6:19 am (#2262 of 2969)
There was absolutely nothing mentioned about anyone with E's in DADA getting in as an exception. Therefore, I think we can assume that all O's and E's could be in the class.
I wouldn't call that a relaxing of standards. Snape's goals for potions, his teaching practices etc., would naturally be different -- it's a completely different field of study, after all. The fact that he allowed E's in DADA is also natural because it's the first year he'd taught the course, with the previous practice evidently being that E's could take the class.
I saw this discussion going on in a HP yahoo group. It seemed the intent was to figure out whether as many of Snape's students got O's as the DADA students coming off of a long serious of usually incompetent teachers. Frankly, I don't think you can tell because there's no way to figure out how many DADA students had received O's and how many had received E's.
Ann - May 26, 2006 2:29 pm (#2263 of 2969)
I agree that Snape, at the beginning of his time in the subject, wasn't in a position to keep people out of the class. He may have even had to admit anyone with a passing grade--probably a good idea anyway, under these wartime circumstances.
After all, people planning to take the course would already have bought their books by the first day of classes (just as Harry and Ron haven't bought their Potions books). There would be no way that Snape could tell them that, nope, I only take students with a grade of Outstanding. I bet he would in subsequent years, though (assuming there is any possibility of anyone ever teaching for more than one year, which he must know there is not).
Hollywand - May 26, 2006 5:38 pm (#2264 of 2969)
Edited May 26, 2006 6:39 pm
Maybe Dumbledore gave the final grades last year with Delores displaced in her teaching position---and Dumbledore wants as many students as possible to learn Defense Against the Dark Arts. Dumbledore often gives extra credit for special circumstances, and perhaps participating in Dumbledore's Army and the Ministry for Magic events count as extra.
Solitaire - May 27, 2006 8:49 am (#2265 of 2969)
Edited May 27, 2006 9:53 am
I thought McGonagall's comment "that Professor Snape absolutely refuses to take students who get anything other than "Outstanding" in their OWLs" was made in reference to his Potions class. Perhaps this is the reason Dumbledore felt he had to switch Snape out of Potions--because Dumbledore knew Harry needed to continue with Advanced Potions, and this was the only way he could ensure that it happened.
Even if Dumbledore had convinced Snape to allow Harry into Advanced Potions (despite a lower grade), Harry would probably not have done as well as he did with Professor Slughorn. The Prince's book notwithstanding, I believe Slughorn's demeanor and classroom environment were more conducive to Harry's success than Snape's would have been. It's hard for even the best student to succeed in a difficult subject when the teacher is continually demeaning and undermining his or her abilities and sabotaging the successes he or she does manage to achieve.
I also agree with Hollywand ... the kids' performance at the DoM surely must have counted for something toward their DADA scores. If nothing else, it proved they managed to learn despite Umbridge's incompetent performance as a teacher. And of course Dumbledore knew the real reason they did learn!
Solitaire
wynnleaf - May 27, 2006 12:29 pm (#2266 of 2969)
Edited May 27, 2006 1:29 pm
We know that the kids in the DA learned a lot more about DADA then they did in class. Still, it looks like there were a number of other kids passing the OWLs sufficiently to get into NEWT level classes -- despite the fact that they'd had mostly inferior teachers for years. Maybe it's not as exacting a field of study and therefore not as hard a class to do well in. Sort of like more people seeming to do well in history or English literature classes than in physics.
While I think Harry's situation was a nice benefit of moving Snape to DADA class, I don't think that was the primary reason behind Dumbledore's decision. I'd expect that more important was that he knew Hogwarts was going to loose Snape at the end of the year, which would mean not only having to replace the potions teacher, but also the head of house for Slytherin. Dumbledore wanted to connect with Slughorn anyway, and Slughorn would be safer from LV while at Hogwarts. So I think the fact that Dumbledore wanted Slughorn as a replacement for Snape -- both in potions and Slytherin House -- plus the information he could provide about LV and horcruxes, was the primary reason for getting Slughorn.
After all, if Harry eventually becomes an Auror, it will be after the time period of Book 7 -- and JKR, through Dumbledore, needs to accomplish things for the coming book, not so much for what will happen after the books are all done.
Of course, Dumbledore might see that Harry needs some more training in potions. But actually, Harry didn't do too badly in potions in the first 5 years. He got an E, after all. I imagine DD could have got Snape to take him on in 6th year potions, and Harry would probably have done just as well as he'd done all along -- about E level.
Snape was certainly very unpleasant to Harry, and yes one can argue that his teaching style isn't condusive to the best learning. But you can't get around the fact that Harry did pull an E on his OWL -- and he wasn't the type to be feverishly studying out-of-class material on his own. So he got that E from what he'd learned under Snape. Yes, Hermione helped, too, but I think the big difference in the OWLs wasn't that he'd learned so much extra from Hermione, but that in the OWLs, he didn't have Snape around making him nervous while he brewed the potions.
mooncalf - May 27, 2006 1:42 pm (#2267 of 2969)
I would have assumed that the change in teachers had come about late enough in the summer that the class lists had already been posted. Snape would not have been able to refuse students after their letters had been sent out, no matter what his standards were,
Catherine - May 27, 2006 3:51 pm (#2268 of 2969)
Edited May 27, 2006 4:52 pm
Yes, Hermione helped, too, but I think the big difference in the OWLs wasn't that he'd learned so much extra from Hermione, but that in the OWLs, he didn't have Snape around making him nervous while he brewed the potions.
I agree with this, but I think the experience of watching Hermione brew Polyjuice Potion, drinking Polyjuice Potion, and experiencing the "fake" Moody certainly helped Harry recognize the Polyjuice Potion on the O.W.L. I'll bet that helped him get an "E."
Snape also taught at at very high level, at least if Umbridge is to be believed when she observed Snape's class in OoP. Despite Snape's criticisms of his students, Umbridge seemed to believe that the students were advanced for their level (and also didn't want the students learning how to make Strengthening Solution.)
Ann - May 27, 2006 4:10 pm (#2269 of 2969)
Edited May 27, 2006 5:14 pm
I think, actually, that Snape's real love is Potions, and that's the subject that he wants to teach. He probably has applied for DADA every year because he had been ordered by Voldemort to apply for that position, because Voldemort knew it would only be for a year. Despite what he says in the Spinners End chapter, I think he really did believe that Voldemort would return eventually (Dumbledore and Hagrid certainly did) and he wanted to be able to say "Dumbledore just wouldn't let me have it." As he did to Voldemort when he returned, and as he did to Bellatrix in that chapter.
But in fact, Dumbledore and Snape both knew the job was cursed, and Dumbledore wanted Snape at Hogwarts for all sorts of obvious reasons (one of which *may* have been that his Potions students learned a lot, despite Solitaire's doubts on that head). I think the switch to DADA was clearly made after Dumbledore knew that Snape would be killing him by the end of the year, and I think it fulfilled all sorts of purposes: making it possible for Harry to get the courses he needs in for the Aurors' program, getting Slughorn to Hogwarts (for the memory and to take over Slytherin when Snape left), and most important of all, ensuring that all of the students knew as much about Defense as Snape could teach them. And after teachers like Lockhart and Quirrell and Umbridge, what Snape could teach them was no doubt a considerable addition to their skills, and will, I suspect be much in requisition in book 7.
Solitaire - May 27, 2006 4:45 pm (#2270 of 2969)
I agree, Ann, that Snape's DADA lessons will come into play in Book 7--particularly wordless magic. I got the definite impression that it was Harry's inability to use wordless spells proficiently that allowed Snape and Draco to escape following Dumbledore's murder. This makes me believe it will be something that must be mastered--and quickly--if Harry is to defeat Voldemort. JM2K ...
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haymoni - May 27, 2006 4:47 pm (#2271 of 2969)
I wonder if DADA was not quite such a big deal after The Fall of Voldy.
If the most evil wizard has been vanquished and his followers - for the most part - had been rounded up, perhaps the emphasis on the subject had waned.
I always wondered why Remus was teaching the kids about boggarts and hinkypucks - what do these creatures have to do with the Dark Arts?
Perhaps that was why the Twins were so impressed with Barty/Moody.
wynnleaf - May 28, 2006 12:42 pm (#2272 of 2969)
Edited May 28, 2006 1:56 pm
New topic or observation...
From HBP we learn that in all likelihood, Severus was raised in a half-muggle household in working class northern England. Would he be likely to have originally had an accompanying accent?
If so, it was apparently gone by the time of "Snape's Worst Memory" -- the end of 5th year. Further, regardless how furious Snape has become on a few occasions -- even to completely "losing it" -- he never drops into another accent. Even in as early as 5th year, during an extremely stressful moment, he doesn't.
Either this is evidence that he didn't really grow up spending any time around people with a different accent (I tend to doubt this, given the location of Spinners End), or his transforming or sort of "re-inventing" of himself was so complete and so controlled that he never drops it even in extremely emotional moments.
Of course, JKR wouldn't have wanted to give anything away in the earlier books (although the "dunderhead" term may be indicative of his roots), but it's still interesting. Any thoughts?
And on another note (this I also posted on the Draco Malfoy thread)...
Someone mentioned on another site that it was interesting the parallel between LV sending Draco to kill DD, while DD is preparing Harry to kill LV.
Narcissa considers this pure malevolence on LV's part -- trying to get Draco killed as punishment for Lucius bungling of the MOM "fiasco." She asks Snape to protect Draco.
But DD is preparing Harry to go against LV. -- Oh, and maybe Snape is supposed to protect him, too...
Anyway, it's an interesting parallel.
Ann - May 29, 2006 3:13 am (#2273 of 2969)
Interesting observations, wynnleaf. There are a number of ways one can see Snape's working-class roots in the series. There's a bit in the first book, right after Harry has won a Quidditch game that Snape was refereeing by catching the Snitch almost as soon as the game starts, and Snape is said to spit on the ground. I don't know anyone who would do that. At the time one reads it as an expression of bitter frustration with the evaporation of his chance to kill Harry (as we think he tried to do at the previous game), but in retrospect it's a little odd in all sorts of ways.
There's also his bad teeth, of course. That speaks of a kind of childhood where one isn't taken to the dentist regularly or given braces (or whatever the wizarding equivalent is). And the sneering, clever insults wouldn't be out of place in a street tough--which is basically what Snape is, when you think about it. He's improved his vocabulary and developed some impressive academic skills, but intimidation and insults may come naturally to him. He's certainly defensive enough. And you can almost see his extensive partisan favoring of Slytherin as a kind of gang rivalry--they even have "gang colors."
Paulus Maximus - May 31, 2006 2:06 pm (#2274 of 2969)
"That speaks of a kind of childhood where one isn't taken to the dentist regularly or given braces (or whatever the wizarding equivalent is)."
That would be the potion (if I remember correctly) that Madam Pomfrey gave to Hermione in her 4th year, after Draco jinxed her.
Come to think of it, Snape might have been able to brew such a potion himself... Assuming, as always, that my memory is correct, and it WAS a potion rather than a spell. I suppose if there is a spell that enlarges teeth, there's a spell that shrinks teeth...
wynnleaf - May 31, 2006 3:09 pm (#2275 of 2969)
Edited May 31, 2006 4:09 pm
I doubt if he cares one way or the other about the way his teeth look. Or perhaps more likely, he doesn't think it should matter, so he doesn't do anything to change it.
I've seen some people from the UK comment that getting braces isn't nearly as common there as in the US. I certainly wouldn't know if that's true. JKR seemed to at least be saying that Snape's teeth were noticebly worse than other wizards.
Perhaps growing up in a half-muggle household that may have been heavily dominated by his father, he was never given magical treatments for his teeth, as well as perhaps not having the resources to get muggle dental care. Although I'd have thought with the medical care systems he'd have had access to dental care. Perhaps not braces.
Torill - Jun 2, 2006 4:58 am (#2276 of 2969)
Edited Jun 2, 2006 5:58 am
Kind of afraid to put my ore in here, Ann, as I have in no way read up on all the past Snape discussions of this board - but I felt I had to protest that Snape's tendency to be defensive, insulting and intimidating should be proof that he is of working class origin. That is sort of prejudist, isn't it? Presume that it is the working class people who would mostly be like that, while richer people would be nicer. I mean, Lucius Malfoy, aristocrat as he is clearly depicted to be, is not any less insulting and intimidating than Snape for instance - not to mention his son Draco... And the "gang" loyalty of the houses, with their different colours, pertains to each and every student at Hogwarts, no matter their backgrounds.
Also - I am not even convinced that the house in Spinner's End is his childhood home. Why should it be? But you have perhaps rehashed that topic a hundred times already, so... :-)
wynnleaf - Jun 2, 2006 6:54 am (#2277 of 2969)
Edited by Catherine Jun 2, 2006 3:07 pm
Torill,
I'm not sure which of all the discussion you might be referring to, but I'll try to recap a bit of the discussion over the thread that could have produced some of the thoughts you mention.
1. Spinners End. Of course, we don't know for certain that it's Snape's home. But it appeared to be somebody's home. It was not a purebloods home. Narcissa and Bella comment that they're likely the "first of our kind" to come there. By that, many presume they mean the first purebloods. So it's a home belonging to a non-pureblood wizard, currently occupied by Snape. And Peter refers to it as Snape's home when talking to Snape. Of course, Snape could have purchased it as an adult, but it seems a strange place to purchase. And why, if he bought it as an adult, would he put a small library in the house? He doesn't go there on holidays (he tends to stay at Hogwarts). Most professors I know (and I know a lot ), tend to keep their books where they live, not some far off residence. So I think we can guess that this is Snape's family home and the books were there as he grew up.
2. If Spinners End is his home, where is it? Fans from England generally seem to think it's in a mill town in Northern England -- something about all the descriptions. There's a link to a great article about that earlier in April or May's posts. A lot of people speculate near Manchester, but there are other possibilities.
3. If Snape is from a working class mill town in Northern England some people speculate that part of his manner of speaking could reflect a blunt, plain speaking style of that area. "Dunderhead" is apparently commonly used in certain areas of Northern England. Of course, this may be no more accurate than people in the US characterizing certain regions of the country for politeness, and others for very plain spoken styles. Still, JKR could have used that, sort of like a writer having a character from the US deep south speak very politely with lots of "yes ma'am" and "yes, sir."
But more than the effects of his roots, would be the effect of being put into Slytherin with those roots, as well as developing an enmity with the Marauders.
What would be the effect of a kid from a possibly poor, working class, Northern England, part-muggle background, placed in Slytherin where the emphasis is on blood purity, with lots of "old" wizarding families? And then there's Sirius and James, from very wealthy pureblood families.
"Snivellus" sounds like the kind of name younger kids come up with -- a name to pick on a crying kid. So you've got even in their early years the wealthy elite kids picking on the poor, working class kid. And accents can count, too. They help accentuate that difference.
And then there's the "otherness" of being very bright and highly creative. The HBP notes clearly show a high degree of creativity and brightness. That doesn't necessarily mean the kid is separated from age peers, but it can especially if there are a lot of other factors also separating the kid -- social class, looks, etc.
It's pretty easy to take that as a starting point and see where defensiveness got started, and the insults and intimidation as a way of defending himself. Without any other way to "fight back," I can easily see a very bright kid with no other real social attributes (family, looks, athletic ability, social ability), using his wit to fight back and to make him feel better about himself.
You know, I don't have to imagine this kind of thing. I've known a number of people who have done the same thing.
I removed the link to a livejournal account. Any questions, please email me at [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]--Catherine
journeymom - Jun 2, 2006 9:44 am (#2278 of 2969)
"Also - I am not even convinced that the house in Spinner's End is his childhood home. Why should it be? But you have perhaps rehashed that topic a hundred times already, so... :-) "
On reading HBP the first time it didn't even occur to me that Spinner's End might be Snape's childhood home. I kind of figured it was just some little out of the way house that LV bought (speculation, of course) so he could keep an eye on Pettigrew and Snape at the same time.
But wynnleaf, you make a good point about all the books. They make it look like he's lived there for years.
Except maybe that implies Snape is SUCH a book worm that he keeps his overflow at a separate residence. As an adult, a death eater and a spy he might have found it useful to have a small house separate from Hogwarts.
haymoni - Jun 2, 2006 9:47 am (#2279 of 2969)
Perhaps the books are Muggle books, so he keeps them "at home".
journeymom - Jun 2, 2006 9:52 am (#2280 of 2969)
Hmm, yes, lots and lots of Jane Austen.
haymoni - Jun 2, 2006 10:26 am (#2281 of 2969)
LOL
Very good!
wynnleaf - Jun 2, 2006 11:00 am (#2282 of 2969)
I work at a college and my office is near to a number of faculty offices, plus I get to see other faculty moving in and out on a somewhat regular basis. They always have a ton of books and are often trying to find places to put them between their home and office. But everybody seems to be quite adament about keeping all their books with them.
So I'm really only going on that... I just figure most of the book lovers I know might have a select stash at their getaway cabin, or beach place, or where ever they might have a regular holiday place, but the bulk of the books stay with them.
The description of the house at Spinners End was (as I recall) walls lined with books. That's a lot of books, even for a smallish living room.
Plus, if this was his family's home, then his mother, perhaps, having lots of books could explain his advanced knowledge of magic when he first went to Hogwarts.
I think we can be pretty sure it's Snape's house, just because Pettigrew said it was when talking to Snape. But we don't know for sure how he got the house.
Rea - Jun 2, 2006 11:47 am (#2283 of 2969)
My mother teaches chemistry in a university, here in Rome: she has her books both in her office and at home; my aunt as well is a professor and she has an office that looks like a library (it is a library indeed), and her house looks like that too.
Magic Words - Jun 2, 2006 1:29 pm (#2284 of 2969)
I wouldn't be surprised if many of those books contained Dark Arts material that is better off kept someplace other than Hogwarts.
Choices - Jun 2, 2006 4:31 pm (#2285 of 2969)
If Madame Pince does turn out to be Snape's mother and Spinner's End his childhood home, that would also explain all the books. She is a librarian and loves books.
Soul Search - Jun 2, 2006 7:28 pm (#2286 of 2969)
Choices,
I think you have hit on the reason there was a mention of books in "Spinner's End."
winlia - Jun 2, 2006 7:29 pm (#2287 of 2969)
Severus can aparate from the grounds outside Hogwarts to Spinner's End, so where he keeps his books is probably less important to him than it would be to a muggle professor.
Like Snape, I'm well educated and come from a modest, working-class background. (I do have good teeth, though. ) I grew up in the 60's near the Chicago stockyards; my father was a machinist in one of the meat-packing houses. We weren't poor, but many (most) of my friends were.
These days I work in as a chemist in the quality assurance dept. of a factory. In my experience, blue collar workers aren't any nastier or more plain spoken than white collar folks, although I can dredge up some interesting slang from my youth. (I once jokingly called a five dollar bill a "fin" and got a blank look from my husband.)
I certainly don't want to insult anyone, but Snape's formality and excessive aversion to being teased or the butt of a joke seem to me to be characteristics of someone who doesn't feel entirely comfortable. He seems insecure, and my interpretation is that his lack of confidence is probably in part because of his background, because he wasn't born to the world that he now inhabits. Snape's fastidious clothing in the movies fits in with my idea of someone who doesn't want to stand out as not knowing what's appropriate. (It also fits in with my approach to my attire at the company Christmas parties.)
I've done a poor job of getting my idea across, but I don't quite know how to improve on it. Can someone help me out? Or set me straight?? Whatever it takes...
Ann - Jun 2, 2006 8:34 pm (#2288 of 2969)
Edited Jun 2, 2006 9:39 pm
Torill, the remark I made about Snape being "defensive, insulting and intimidating" wasn't meant to apply to his working class roots at all, but to associate him with a specific subset of that--the "street tough." The sort of young man who has a gang and hangs out on street corners and verbally (at least) harasses rival gangs and often random passersby as well. I didn't at all mean to imply that all young men of the working class are street toughs, although few members of the upper or upper middle class are convincing in such a role. Just that this was a group of people that I could see Snape growing up in proximity to and imitating a bit (and ultimately reacting against, to some extent).
The only comments I made about the working class in general was that there tends to be less emphasis on refined manners and dental care. Not that there aren't working class people with excellent manners and lovely teeth, but, as I say, it's less of an obsession than it is with the upper middles. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear and offended anyone. (She says, defensively.)
I agree with winlia's remarks about Snape being a little insecure about his dress and behavior (and possibly accent--the exaggeratedly educated, sometimes almost archaic, mode of speech when addressing secondary school children strikes me as an over-correction).
wynnleaf - Jun 2, 2006 9:32 pm (#2289 of 2969)
Edited Jun 2, 2006 10:33 pm
As regards Severus speech as an adult...
Ann said and possibly accent--the exaggeratedly educated, sometimes almost archaic, mode of speech when addressing secondary school children strikes me as an over-correction).
But it may be something different. Some people that aren't very social, but read a lot will often tend to talk like they read. I remember a woman giving a personal example of this when she described being awakened in her dorm room by a drunken student pounding on her door and shouting in the mistaken belief that it was that student's room. The usual response might be "shut up and go away," but this woman yelled, "cease and desist!" And it was perfectly natural for her to do say that. In the particular circle of friends where this woman told her tale, almost everyone identified (including me!).
I think Severus' pattern of speech was initially learned, but it may have been more from doing lots and lots of reading and it has probably become very natural to him. Notice that even when he is completely furious, he never drops his manner of speech. If he had a very Northern English accent, he appears to have dropped that, too, although that would come from probably having a great ear and a conscious decision to change.
Torill - Jun 3, 2006 4:13 am (#2290 of 2969)
Thank you for that excellent recap, wynnleaf! I agree that it is as good as certain that Spinner's End is Snape's home, I definitely came away from HBP with that impression. But that is not the same as saying it is his childhood home. This seems a bit of a far stretch to me. The few glimpses we have from his childhood indicates that he didn't grow up in a happy home - so why should he choose to keep living there as an adult when he doesn't have to; when his wages as a professor at Hogwarts in all likelihood would provide him with means for far better accomodations?
I could see him buy the house as an adult for several reasons - one being that Snape with seclusiveness and secrecy as core traits of his personality would love to live in surrouondings where no one would think he would live. He doesn't want callers. This wouldn't work as well if he just stayed on living in his childhood home, several people would know about that after all.
I too think it is highly likely that the books described lining the walls in the living room are his collection of Dark Arts books; a collection he just can't have at display in his office at Hogwarts. No matter what we may think of his loyalties, Snape is not described as having given up his interest in the Dark Arts. This precious forbidden collection may actually be the chief reason why he would want such an unlikely and hidden place of residence as Spinner's End...
But my first thought when I read the book, with its hint of the living room giving one the feeling of a "padded cell", was that this was a place of keeping someone almost under lock and key as it were: Peter. He is showed in this chapter to be practically Snape's prisoner, and he needs to be kept safely away from both the Order and the Ministry. Not just for his own good - he can't be trusted by the DEs either, at least I am sure this is how Voldedmort sees it. The place is described as giving the feeling of not having been lived in for quite a while - this may mean that Snape and Peter have indeed moved in there quite recently, at Voldemort's orders. Snape would defintiely have brought his precious book collection if he expected this arrangement to last a while; while he would not necessarily think the place needed redecoration.
Ann - I am sorry if I came across as a bit defensive - I probably was. I grew up in middle class surroundings, but both my parents came from solid working class backgrounds (my mother even from a poor family), and so does the man in my life. I am very sensitive to the all too widespread idea that working class people are coarser, ruder and less sensitive to other people's needs than the upper classes are, even if their manners of speech may be less influenced by books...
But this aside - my point is that you do not need to look at class background to explain Snape's abysmally cruel and insensitive behaviour towards the kids in his care. Having been around "street toughs" is not necessary to learn how to insult and intimidate others - upper class kids are in every way capable of putting each other down and bully the less fortunate in just as elaborate ways as are the street toughs. I have heard them.... so have several of you, I am sure.
As for how Snape fared in Slytherin in his school days - I would think that the problem of being a half blood was a bigger issue there than being working class. Muggle father as such would be a potential bad thing to have in that house; but I don't think richer or poorer Muggle father would have made much of a difference.
And I disagree that we learn from HBP how Snape was a bright but basically defenseless kid who would need to learn how to snide people with smart remarks in order to defend himself. The main reason why he was James' victim was his obsession with the Dark Arts, and that at a time when Voldemort was at the rise. I think this factor cannot be ruled out, or emphasized too strongly. To compare it with RL for a moment, bearing in mind what the Dark Arts are supposed to represent in the books: if I had had an eleven year old in my class when I was a teacher, who were obsessed with torture instruments and methods and knew a disturbingly high amount of details about those; and this was something he had apparently picked up at home - I would have found it very alarming! Snape was NOT defenseless - HE was the one who invented the levicorpus spell James used against him in that infamous worst memory moment - for this to have become a fad in the school to the point where you couldn't walk the corridors for fear of being hoisted upside down in the air as Lupin said; Snape must have used this against others on more than one occation himself. This sheds a different light on that occation I think: Snape was ok with using this spell against others, but don't anyone dare use it against him!!! He also invented the horrible Sectumsempra spell - and from the description of its effects, it does indeed seem as if this was the spell he used against James in OotP - only he hit him on the cheek instead of the chest, lucky for James...
No, Snape was not a defenselsess victim. And he did not take to the Dark Arts as a defense against his bullies at Hogwarts, he was deeply invested in them when he arrived at school already. I think the dynamics between Snape and the marauders, and Snape and the rest of the students for that matter, was more complicated than the insecure bully vitcim compensating for his humiliations..
wynnleaf - Jun 3, 2006 6:28 am (#2291 of 2969)
Edited Jun 3, 2006 7:38 am
Torill,
And he did not take to the Dark Arts as a defense against his bullies at Hogwarts, he was deeply invested in them when he arrived at school already.
You know, the basis for this idea that Snape knew a huge amount of Dark Arts at 11 years old, and was obsessed by them -- that's something Lupin said, remember?
Lupin also told Harry that Snape's main reason for disliking James was jealousy over Quidditch, neglecting at the time to say anything to Harry about the bullying. During the same time period he was telling Harry that, he was not telling DD that Sirius (supposed mass murderer) was an animagus, or knew the secret passageways into Hogwarts.
It is Lupin who gave this excuse to Harry about why they disliked Snape -- Lupin who wants to keep the good opinion of people he cares about.
But what did Sirius say? On the "Snape's worst memory" scene, he said it was just because Snape existed.
And the nickname they gave him, probably as pretty young kids? Snivelus seems to refer to a crying kid. It's a derogatory nickname that evokes a sort of weepy weak feeling -- not exactly the kind of nickname you'd give to the school bully, is it?
Frankly, I don't think the testimony of Lupin -- one of the Maruaders, one that sat by and did nothing while Snape was bullied by Lupin's friends -- is the one to trust for a good characterization of Snape or a good description of what Snape knew or didn't know about Dark Arts as a kid.
I don't complete discount Lupin's remark, but I'd certainly take it with a grain of salt.
Fawkes Egg - Jun 3, 2006 7:05 am (#2292 of 2969)
Wynnleaf,
I would agree with you if it wasn't for the fact that the adult Lupin feels incredible guilt for his actions, or lack of action, as a schoolboy. Whilst he has a deep need to have a the good opinion of those he cares about, he feels shame over how satisfying that need has led to trouble: in PoA he admits to an internal struggle over telling Dumbledore that Sirius is an Animagus, and his rationalization of his attitude to Snape in HbP: "Dumbledore trusts him and therefore so do I" is perhaps partly born of his need for Dumbledore's approval and his guilt over his past actions towards Snape. This is reflectd in how he rationalizes his behaviour, and Snapes's behaviour, to Harry.
We gain further insight into Lupin's ambiguous (part guilt/part need for DD's approval) feelings towards Snape when Harry tells him why DD trusted Snape. Lupin breaks down at that point, seeing perhaps that his guilt and his need for DD's approval of his own attitudes is based on an apparently incredibly naive view of Snape on Dumbledore's part. I saw that scene as very telling: Lupin has spent much of his adult life plagued by guilt over his attitude as a schoolboy, perhaps not just towards Snape but to others that James and Sirius may have bullied too. Dumbledore, who trusts Snape, or repeatedly says he does, is probably the one person whose good opinion means everything to Lupin (he says as much in PoA). Then Lupin finds that Dumbledore's trust of Snape is apparently based on the flimsiest possible excuse - and all his guilt, all his efforts as being seen as A Good Person by Dumbledore, including trusting Snape, come crashing down.
In this reaction of Lupin's to hearing that Snape killed Dumbledore, we can see that Lupin has spent a great deal of (now apparently wasted) effort in developing a reasoned, rational, mature approach to his adult, post-schoolboy relationship with Snape - including rationalising his past behaviour, Snape's past behaviour, and the past behaviour of James and Sirius. He's actually WORKED on being reasonable about it all in hindsight - which is why Dumbledore's death at Snape's hands causes him to crumble as he does. It's also the reason why I'd tend to trust Lupin's opinions - he's worked so hard at being sensible and rational, based on the guilt/need for approval that he's carried with him all his life.
Does that make sense?
wynnleaf - Jun 3, 2006 7:55 am (#2293 of 2969)
Edited Jun 3, 2006 9:01 am
Fawkes Egg,
Yes, in many ways it does make sense.
But think back to what Lupin had said -- Sirius, by the way, asserted more or less the same thing. Lupin said that Snape knew a lot about Dark Arts is a young kid, when he came to Hogwarts. When Snape was 11, Lupin was 11. Similar thing goes for Sirius. Sirius said that Snape was this "little oddball" and into the Dark Arts. This was Sirius' view from when Sirius was a kid.
In other words, Lupin, Sirius and apparently James made these assessments of Snape-the-kid when they were themselves only 11. Over the next 7 years they used this assessment, apparently, as justification (right or wrong) for their enmity with him. And certainly Severus did grow in knowledge of the Dark Arts over his years at Hogwarts. Which would tend to make the Marauders even more sure of their initial judgement. But we have no evidence that their initial judgement, at age 11, was correct.
Later, as adults, when Harry asks for clarification and for reasons for their own behavior, Lupin and Sirius both fall back on this as part of the reasoning.
But Snape has a repeated assertion that they ganged up on him, 2, 3, and 4 to 1, which is at least backed up by the pensieve scene. Further, when Harry goes through Filch's detention files, he notes many detentions for the Marauders, but we don't see him finding any on Snape. While this certainly doesn't mean Snape never did anything, it does make me wonder about the Marauders.
I do not like to use the word of one of the parties involved, without some extra evidence. We don't have any evidence other than Sirius and Lupin's comments, that Snape was so very, very into the Dark Arts as a young child. And yet they had plenty of reason to desire that excuse in order to justify their actions. So I just don't think we should consider those comments entirely dependable.
As regards Snape's comments about the Marauders, we do have the objective evidence of the pensieve scene where they did indeed "gang up" on him and where it was entirely unjustified. Further, we have a bit of evidence in Filch's detention files that the Marauders seemed to get into a lot more trouble than Snape.
Where, exactly, was he supposed to have learned all those Dark Arts prior to Hogwarts? We don't fully know his history, but we have got hints that his father dominated the family. This wasn't like the Blacks -- a major Dark Arts family. This was a part muggle family, perhaps dominated by the muggle father. Sure, his mother may have been into Dark Arts -- but I doubt if she was anything like the Blacks, since she did marry a muggle. So what does that leave us? Mom had a lot of Dark Arts books at home and Severus read them? Possible, I suppose. But wouldn't she have had to be interested in Dark Arts to have a lot of books on it? And if she was so into Dark Arts, would she be the type to marry a muggle, much less be dominated by him? Maybe Severus visited some Dark Arts relatives often -- but we've had no hint of any Snape relatives so far.
I'm absolutely not trying to say Snape was a nice kid who went bad because of the nasty Marauders. But we don't really have any evidence to back up Lupin and Sirius' comments. And they had every reason to feel really comfortable about their assumptions about Snape -- it helped justify them. Lupin wouldn't even necessarily have been lying (a knowing falsehood), he could simply have convinced himself that his assessment at age 11 was correct.
So what do I think? I think Snape came to Hogwarts out of a somewhat abusive family, fairly poor, part muggle. I think his mom owned a lot of books and Snape read them and knew a lot before he came of all sorts of magic. If he cried a lot in 1st year, it probably wasn't from being homesick. Maybe more from feeling very out of place and insecure. I think Snape in school was probably very insecure, resentful, and bitter. My guess is he dealt with some of this by trying to look down on others from the vantage point of his intellect, which he used to develop weapons to fight people he felt were ganging up on him. I imagine he turned to the Dark side looking for people to affirm him, trying to find a place to "fit in." I'd bet the Lucius (about 6 years older) met him and used that need to develop Snape into his sort of protege -- probably mainly just to use him. Lucius seems like the type. Snape was certainly willing to use the Dark magic he created. It probably was the sectumsempra Snape used on James, although a much more controlled cut than Harry's wildly waving wand action produced. Snape as an adult, by the way, is very up front in HBP about that being Dark magic.
Hollywand - Jun 3, 2006 8:28 am (#2294 of 2969)
Torrill makes some great observations on Snape's dark nature. I would counter, Wynnleaf, that Rowling give us Seveus as a pretty young boy blasting flies from the ceiling. We could contrast this to Harry's confinement under the stairs by the Dursleys where he is trapped with spiders on his socks. Harry doesn't mind the spiders and accepts them, even though he is placed in an extremely poverty stricken position emotionally and physically.
Rowling also gives us young Tom Riddle, who is well into using his intuitive gift to humiliate and command others, well before he learns he is magical.
Rowling seems to make an important point with the Marauders that being in a position of power can seduce the powerful into using their power unfairly. James is a great example of this when he humiliates Severus. But I think Torrill's points are excellent that Severus is creatively constructing his own dark magic and using it to his strategic, and not always ethical advantage.
wynnleaf - Jun 3, 2006 9:35 am (#2295 of 2969)
Edited Jun 3, 2006 10:36 am
But I think Torrill's points are excellent that Severus is creatively constructing his own dark magic and using it to his strategic, and not always ethical advantage.
Yes, this is certainly true. We have evidence from the HBP notes that he was clearly using his abilities to devise means to fight against those he perceived as his enemies. But we actually have no evidence that he was doing that prior to Hogwarts, or that he actually came to Hogwarts well-versed in Dark Magic. We only have the comments of those who considered themselves his enemies at the time.
Snape very clearly went down a different path from Harry. There are a lot of parallels between the two, and Harry never took Dark paths, where Severus obviously did.
But I guess I don't like to see us make Snape out to be even worse than we actually know him to be. We know he created some nasty hexes and at least one dark magic curse -- sectumsempra. We know he eventually became a DE. We don't know for how long, but we know he went back to DD at approximately age 20.
But we don't know that he was into the Dark Arts from an early age. We don't know that he was some 11 year old interested in how to torture people, or other nasty interests. We have really no evidence of that.
On the flies and spiders thing -- I come from an area that has certain months with many flies. Anyone killing flies in the house would be considered to be doing a good thing. When I was a kid we had fly hunts. The saying was, "kill one fly and 10 come to the funeral." Killing spiders is generally bad (unless they're poisonous) because they kill flies and mosquitoes. I just can't get worked up about a kid zapping the flies in his room. Although I imagine JKR put it in there to show some sort picture of a bored kid killing insects. But I could never see it as a negative.
Hollywand - Jun 3, 2006 9:59 am (#2296 of 2969)
Wynnleaf, you list in your post above a whole lot of reasons to consider Snape a willfully dark wizard.
It seems to me that folks who like Snape's character spend a lot of effort defending away his cruel intentions, and yet offering very little understanding to other characters like Lupin or Sirius or James. For example, Snape's decision to become a Death Eater will, for me, forever taint him as a character with some very unflattering personality flaws. I can understand James' adolescent arrogance, and Lupin's desire to fit in, and Sirius' foolhardy love of risk, and even see that they retreated from these positions as they got older and wiser. Snape's foray into the dark side is much more difficult to explain away and overlook and even forgive, even though I trust Dumbledore's judgement that Severus is loyal to the ultimate goal of overcoming the Dark Lord.
Compassion for every living thing is a key element to Rowling's series, including spiders, flies and snakes. Harry has much more of it than Snape, Voldemort, Draco or James even, and I believe Rowling has been advancing this subplot throughout the series. If you look at the series, the references to spiders are legion, as well as deeply connected to compassion and keys to advancing the stories. Treatment of the animal world is central to the book. So I would argue, aside from liking or seeing the usefulness of living beings does not trump showing respect or compassion for them.
Ann - Jun 3, 2006 10:11 am (#2297 of 2969)
Edited Jun 3, 2006 11:17 am
Excellent points, Torill, wynnleaf, FawkesEgg and Hollywand.
I especially liked the spider-fly contrast. Spiders trap flies too--I wonder if one could make anything of that. Has anyone ever thought about how many spiders there are in this series? Almost as omnipresent as socks--including the Sphinx's riddle, the first part of which which foreshadows Snape's role a few chapters later.
As for Snape and Dark magic, it's actually Sirius who stresses the Dark Arts connection, both when the trio visit him in the cave and in Harry's Floo call after viewing Snape's memory. Remus doesn't disagree, but it's Sirius that twice brings this up and stresses it. And it is peculiar, as wynnleaf points out--where would Snape learn Dark magic? Perhaps someone taught him one spell (Malfoy?), and Sirius (clearly reacting against his own family, and probably knowing nothing about Snape's) over generalized? Sirius would have had plenty of opportunity to learn, given his family background, but all we know about Eileen Prince is that she's good at Gobstones (which isn't at all Dark--and really sounds like a pretty silly game to have a school team in). We haven't heard of any Snape cousins who became Death Eaters (although I suppose JKR would have hesitated to tell us if there were, lest she spoil the surprise at the end of HBP).
So, could Sirius be projecting a bit?
There is clearly a lot of anger there (hence the Sectumsempera), but the Levicorpus is more the sort of joke spell that the kids all use, like Jellylegs. And I've never understood how it became a fad--it's a non-verbal spell, after all.
--Cross-posted with Hollywand (I got interrupted while typing)--
wynnleaf - Jun 3, 2006 11:53 am (#2298 of 2969)
Edited Jun 3, 2006 12:58 pm
Wynnleaf, you list in your post above a whole lot of reasons to consider Snape a willfully dark wizard.
Of course, because as far as we know he was willfully a dark wizard by the time he was around 17 or 18.
It seems to me that folks who like Snape's character spend a lot of effort defending away his cruel intentions, and yet offering very little understanding to other characters like Lupin or Sirius or James.
I do not defend Snape's cruel intentions, where we know that his intentions are cruel. Additionally, there is practically no reason to defend Lupin, Sirius, or James, since practically everyone is agreed that they are on the "good" side and are mostly nice guys. What I sometimes find difficult to deal with is the notion that people who come across as pleasant and nice, just naturally have good intentions, their word can be trusted, etc. Whereas people who are generally disagreeable, sarcastic, resentful etc., are likely to be much worse than even what one can see for certain. (I am not saying that you implied that, Hollywand.) To me, it shows an overabundance of compassion and an unwillingness to consider fault for the people that seem nice, but a lack of compassion and willingness to search for even greater fault toward those who are unpleasant. This is simply my personal opinion and not meant as a judgement on anyone.
If you look at the series, the references to spiders are legion, as well as deeply connected to compassion and keys to advancing the stories. Treatment of the animal world is central to the book. So I would argue, aside from liking or seeing the usefulness of living beings does not trump showing respect or compassion for them.
With regards the spiders, I'm not completely sure of what point of mine you were commenting on. Yes, I'm well aware that spiders are important to the books and there's a lot of symbolic meaning attached to them. Yes, I think JKR used the fly killing memory to give us another glimpse of Snape. But do I really think killing flies is cruel? Absolutely not.
In RL, I would certainly kill a poisonous spider in my house, but overall we do not kill spiders. I did not notice much respect or compassion in the books for blast ended skrewts other than from Hagrid; or for poor Nagini (after all, can she help being possessed by LV?); or for the basilisk (what more is it than an overgrown deadly snake?). I can't see much difference between a basilisk and a black widow spider other than size and degree of deadliness. Why didn't we see compassion and respect for those creatures, if it's so important in the books for that to be accorded all living things? I do agree that there's a sense in the books that weaker things should be accorded compassion, but I don't see that applied to all living things.
Ann,
I like and agree with your post.
I think I'll bow out of this discussion for awhile.... have fun!
Hollywand - Jun 3, 2006 12:32 pm (#2299 of 2969)
Edited Jun 3, 2006 1:33 pm
Well, I would say that Rowling offers plenty of critical perspectives on the Marauders. Harry eventually realizes that his father is arrogant. Harry is objective enough to realize that, even though he would love to have an idealistic memory of his father he longs for. To Sirius' great credit, I think, he is honest with Harry and admits that he and James were "arrogant berks" and he's not proud of it.
I would say that Severus still lacks compassion, even after returning to Hogwarts. His encounter with Harry during Harry's foray into his memories demonstrates this concept. Harry invades the memories of both Dumbledore and Snape; Snape responds by throwing a glass jar at Harry (full of cockroaches), which could have very seriously injured him physically. Dumbledore stops Harry, but certainly doesn't try to physically hurt him.
I think Hagrid and his compassion for animals, even animals others think of as useless will be a strong central theme of the "red and gold" final book. Ironically, I think Harry will ultimately be required to extend compassion to Snape as part of the resolution of the series.
Ann - Jun 3, 2006 1:33 pm (#2300 of 2969)
wynnleaf, it was Hollywand's observation about the contrast between Snape's treatment of flies and Harry's of spiders that I was commenting on. I agree that compassion for flies isn't really required, but I do think her point, that Snape is zapping them idly, without even thinking about it, may have merit.
But Hollywand, I don't think you can compare the two Pensieve invasions, really. When Harry invades Dumbledore's Pensieve, it's a result of his curiosity--he doesn't know what the thing is, and the memories that he sees are just what happens to be there. When he invades Snape's, he knows very well that he is invading Snape's private and most sensitive memories, and that those memories have been put into the Pensieve specifically because Snape does not want him to see them. In Dumbledore's Pensieve, he sees Dumbledore acting wisely and compassionately as a judge. In Snape's Pensieve, he sees his teacher dangled upside down by his own charm, his knickers exposed, and laughed at by the surrounding students. No comparison.
As for Snape and compassion, well, he clearly hasn't shown much to Harry, who he regards as his childhood torturer reborn. However, we've seen him grip a chairback so hard that his knuckles whiten when he hears that Ginny Weasley has been taken in Book 2, and we've seen him croon a healing charm over Draco in Book 6. We've also seen him calm Narcissa by giving her a glass of wine, promising to help Draco as much as he can, and then putting his life on the line by Vowing to do so. He may have other motivations, but he does it. (And that's the only scene where we've seen Snape without the Harry filter.) Otherwise, we have only Harry's view of things, which is far from charitable. We never see him with friends or colleagues or with his Slytherins. So I don't think we really know what he's like.
Hollywand - Jun 3, 2006 1:57 pm (#2301 of 2969)
Hi Ann. I agree with you in that Rowling consistently minimizes Snape's admirable actions and lovingly stokes the cauldron of anger toward Snape when she can. ;-)
I still think, however, and I know we've flogged this poor topic to death, that Snape, as an adult, should exercise more self-control with his anger when Harry snoops. Perhaps a twelve-week, touchy feely Anger Management Class for our Slytherin Head of House. I can just see the look on his face right this second.
Ironically, at the close of book six, Severus does lose his temper with Harry and reveals a whole cache of very personal details about himself---ironic, since he has just chided Harry to keep his mind closed and his mouth shut. ;-) And his earlier comment to Harry about exercising emotional restraint.
It's great to read your contribution. I won't go into a bunch of Alchemy mumbo-jumbo here, but spiders, flies, snakes, rabbits, all of these are symbols that carry larger meaning as metaphors in the series. Oh yes, and as you pointed out, references to hanging, one of Jo's favorite childhood pastimes with her sister Di.
Saracene - Jun 3, 2006 6:17 pm (#2302 of 2969)
Personally, I tend to believe that Snape really was into Dark Arts when at school; and for their own sake rather than a mean to defend himself or whatever. Granted, most of that information comes from Sirius who hated Snape, but I tend to think that Sirius wasn't lying simply because JKR has never indicated that what Sirius said about Snape's fascination with Dark Arts was untrue. There is only so much space she is going to devote to the characters' backgrounds; when she wants to show that what Harry (and we the readers) had believed previously about a person was untrue, she clearly indicates so.
wynnleaf - Jun 3, 2006 6:29 pm (#2303 of 2969)
Edited Jun 3, 2006 7:30 pm
Personally, I tend to believe that Snape really was into Dark Arts when at school; and for their own sake rather than a mean to defend himself or whatever.
Just jumping in to quickly say I mostly agree with this. I just don't put much into the assertion that Snape knew more Dark magic when he started Hogwarts than most upper years. Where'd he learn it? His mom, who married a muggle and was perhaps dominated by him, practiced the Dark Arts? That doesn't seem to fit. So where'd did he learn it? How would 11 year olds like Sirius or Lupin know he knew that level of Dark Arts? I just think that was exaggeration and a belief they held on to in order to justify their own actions. But when you say he was into them "for their own sake," well, something would move a person in that direction, something he was perhaps searching for.
Magic Words - Jun 3, 2006 6:41 pm (#2304 of 2969)
Saracene, when you say he was into Dark Arts "for their own sake" do you mean as an intellectual curiosity? I think that's a possibility, and I think if it is the case it isn't nearly as bad as being into them for the sake of power or even self-defense.
winlia - Jun 3, 2006 6:43 pm (#2305 of 2969)
It seems to me that folks who like Snape's character spend a lot of effort defending away his cruel intentions, and yet offering very little understanding to other characters like Lupin or Sirius or James.
Hollywand
At the end of the day, Snape's classroom cruelties (remark about Hermione's teeth, calling Neville an "Idiot boy", etc.) won't do much to hinder those to whom they are addressed. Neville won't be stunted in his development; he'll come into his own and most likely kill Bellatrix in book 7. Harry will, of course, defeat LV.
Even though Snape is an adult and should know better, and Harry has had a horrible upbringing and should be crippled emotionally, it's Harry who has warm, healthy relationships and for whom the future is bright. Snape's nastiness is more palatable because it seems as though he isn't doing any lasting harm.
I can't speak for the other Snape fans, but I find myself feeling sorry for him, even though I realize that he's often cruel.
Hollywand - Jun 3, 2006 7:11 pm (#2306 of 2969)
Winlia, I respectfully disagree. I teach, and I am well aware of many instances where a teacher's remark, humiliating a student, especially in front of their peers, can be taken to be casual and have no effect. The examples you cite in your post demonstrate, to my mind, that defenders of Snape's character gloss over the injuries he inflicts and make him into a heroic figure. It is to Hermione and Neville's credit they are able to overcome Snape's cruelty, and not something that has very little significance.
Jo Rowling seems bewildered that so many of her readers like the Snape character---she definitely doesn't see him as a romantic interest or even compelling dinner company. Snape does stoke the tension in the group; that seems to be her primary interest in the character.
Predicting a positive outcome for Harry's inner circle of friends doesn't excuse Snape's petty childishness, especially in someone who is in a position of authority of other who are under his care.
Magic Words - Jun 3, 2006 7:42 pm (#2307 of 2969)
I see myself as a Snape defender, but if I come across as making him into a heroic figure, it's not my intention. A tragic hero or an anti-hero, maybe. He's not a wonderful character and I'd rather not start counting his potentially fatal flaws, but he does incite pity, for some readers at least. And he does perform heroic actions (I think ). And he probably will fall.
Saracene - Jun 3, 2006 7:43 pm (#2308 of 2969)
Edited Jun 3, 2006 8:53 pm
Magic Words - yes, "intellectual curiosity" is probaby what I'd describe it as. Or maybe by saying that for Snape Dark Arts may have been an end in itself, rather than means to an end such as power, intimidation, self-defence, etc.
I do feel sorry for Snape though I also think that he's a deeply awful person with extremely few redeeming qualities. I'm convinced he's on the good side and I'd defend him as far as the question of his loyalties goes, but not when it comes to his personality and his treatment of students. Honestly, some HP forums I've been on paint Snape in such rosy-tinted colours it makes my jaw drop.
wynnleaf - Jun 3, 2006 8:04 pm (#2309 of 2969)
Edited Jun 3, 2006 9:09 pm
The examples you cite in your post demonstrate, to my mind, that defenders of Snape's character gloss over the injuries he inflicts and make him into a heroic figure.
While I agree that he says some appallingly insulting things sometimes, we have yet to be shown in canon how any of the students have been injured by Snape -- in the long run. I'm not saying that to diminish his actions, but after all, even Neville is growing in courage and self-esteem. If JKR were going to show anyone really scarred by Snape, wouldn't it be Neville?
As to the heroic part, well if a hero is someone who exhibits exeptional courage, nobility and strength (dictionary there), and if Snape is really fulfilling DD's orders and is still DD's man, then with the exception perhaps of nobility, one would have to say he fit the definition. So maybe that makes him an anti-hero somewhat.
Thing is, insulting one's students doesn't (if he's on the good side), negate his other actions. You can't say, "he sure is mean, no matter what he risks or achieves for the Light, he won't be heroic because he's mean to his students." That just fits right in with what I said earlier. This tendency to think only the best of pleasant people, but be unable to accept acts of great good for what they are just because the person is quite unpleasant.
After all that transpired in HBP, if Snape is on the good side, then it's pretty clear he's risked a great deal more than most of the Order, to achieve victory against LV. Being insulting and cruel to his students doesn't negate what he's doing for the Order. One can't say, "yes that would have been true heroism, but because he's mean to his students, it's not."
What I like about this character is that he's not a card-board cut-out of either villian or hero.
Edit to comment on post below: Where would Hermione have got books on the Dark Arts? Flourish and Blots? She'd have bought them, right? Snape, if you recall, was apparently using his mom's used textbooks. Would he have been able to go buy books at Flourish and Blots? Do they sell Dark Arts books there? Would he have had the money to buy books? I don't think his family had as much money as Hermione's.
Solitaire - Jun 3, 2006 8:06 pm (#2310 of 2969)
where would Snape learn Dark magic?
If Hermione were interested in the Dark Arts, she would have managed to know plenty about them by the time she entered Hogwarts. She is a voracious reader and would have made it her business to know such information. I suspect Snape was also a reader ... and intelligent enough to have amassed all kinds of information on any subject that interested him sufficiently ... especially if it turns out that his mother is indeed the librarian!
Regarding the Pensieve scene ... I agree that Harry sticking his nose into Snape's Pensieve was a gross violation of Snape's privacy. Frankly, if the memories had not been about James and the Marauders, I doubt he would have stayed in the Pensieve. I can't help wondering, though, at Snape's having left the Pensieve out in the open when he knows how nosy and curious Harry is. I believe it was irresistible bait to snoop, and Harry took it.
I agree, Saracene, that Snape was into the Dark Arts--whether for intellectual curiosity or some other reason, I haven't decided yet. If Snape's mother was verbally abused by her husband, then it is equally possible that Snape was verbally (or even physically) abused, as well.
Remember that Voldemort was recruiting even back in Snape's earliest days at Hogwarts. Perhaps Snape was already making plans for the day when he would have power and authority and could exact his revenge. This could have happened even before he knew the Marauders. However, I have always believed that Sirius knew Snape before they entered Hogwarts. The Snivellus nickname has always made me think that Sirius had seen Snape in circumstances where he cried, possibly as a small child. Perhaps their families had occasion to meet socially, and Sirius witnessed Snape being punished, tormented, and made to cry. Just a thought ...
Hollywand: I teach, and I am well aware of many instances where a teacher's remark, humiliating a student, especially in front of their peers, can be taken to be casual and have no effect.
I must agree, Hollywand. I have taught adolescents for twenty years. Just because a kid seems to blow off a cruel comment in public doesn't mean it hasn't pierced him to the heart. Many times the damage caused by repeated cruel comments cannot be fully known until it manifests itself in some tragic way.
People who have been abused by others seem to react in one of two ways: 1) They are compassionate to others, because they understand how it feels to be bullied and humiliated; or 2) they become tormentors of others, carrying on the vicious tradition. One would like to think a "good guy" would want to spare others the pain he had to endure rather than take his revenge for it on them. JM2K ...
Solitaire
I wonder if DADA was not quite such a big deal after The Fall of Voldy.
If the most evil wizard has been vanquished and his followers - for the most part - had been rounded up, perhaps the emphasis on the subject had waned.
I always wondered why Remus was teaching the kids about boggarts and hinkypucks - what do these creatures have to do with the Dark Arts?
Perhaps that was why the Twins were so impressed with Barty/Moody.
wynnleaf - May 28, 2006 12:42 pm (#2272 of 2969)
Edited May 28, 2006 1:56 pm
New topic or observation...
From HBP we learn that in all likelihood, Severus was raised in a half-muggle household in working class northern England. Would he be likely to have originally had an accompanying accent?
If so, it was apparently gone by the time of "Snape's Worst Memory" -- the end of 5th year. Further, regardless how furious Snape has become on a few occasions -- even to completely "losing it" -- he never drops into another accent. Even in as early as 5th year, during an extremely stressful moment, he doesn't.
Either this is evidence that he didn't really grow up spending any time around people with a different accent (I tend to doubt this, given the location of Spinners End), or his transforming or sort of "re-inventing" of himself was so complete and so controlled that he never drops it even in extremely emotional moments.
Of course, JKR wouldn't have wanted to give anything away in the earlier books (although the "dunderhead" term may be indicative of his roots), but it's still interesting. Any thoughts?
And on another note (this I also posted on the Draco Malfoy thread)...
Someone mentioned on another site that it was interesting the parallel between LV sending Draco to kill DD, while DD is preparing Harry to kill LV.
Narcissa considers this pure malevolence on LV's part -- trying to get Draco killed as punishment for Lucius bungling of the MOM "fiasco." She asks Snape to protect Draco.
But DD is preparing Harry to go against LV. -- Oh, and maybe Snape is supposed to protect him, too...
Anyway, it's an interesting parallel.
Ann - May 29, 2006 3:13 am (#2273 of 2969)
Interesting observations, wynnleaf. There are a number of ways one can see Snape's working-class roots in the series. There's a bit in the first book, right after Harry has won a Quidditch game that Snape was refereeing by catching the Snitch almost as soon as the game starts, and Snape is said to spit on the ground. I don't know anyone who would do that. At the time one reads it as an expression of bitter frustration with the evaporation of his chance to kill Harry (as we think he tried to do at the previous game), but in retrospect it's a little odd in all sorts of ways.
There's also his bad teeth, of course. That speaks of a kind of childhood where one isn't taken to the dentist regularly or given braces (or whatever the wizarding equivalent is). And the sneering, clever insults wouldn't be out of place in a street tough--which is basically what Snape is, when you think about it. He's improved his vocabulary and developed some impressive academic skills, but intimidation and insults may come naturally to him. He's certainly defensive enough. And you can almost see his extensive partisan favoring of Slytherin as a kind of gang rivalry--they even have "gang colors."
Paulus Maximus - May 31, 2006 2:06 pm (#2274 of 2969)
"That speaks of a kind of childhood where one isn't taken to the dentist regularly or given braces (or whatever the wizarding equivalent is)."
That would be the potion (if I remember correctly) that Madam Pomfrey gave to Hermione in her 4th year, after Draco jinxed her.
Come to think of it, Snape might have been able to brew such a potion himself... Assuming, as always, that my memory is correct, and it WAS a potion rather than a spell. I suppose if there is a spell that enlarges teeth, there's a spell that shrinks teeth...
wynnleaf - May 31, 2006 3:09 pm (#2275 of 2969)
Edited May 31, 2006 4:09 pm
I doubt if he cares one way or the other about the way his teeth look. Or perhaps more likely, he doesn't think it should matter, so he doesn't do anything to change it.
I've seen some people from the UK comment that getting braces isn't nearly as common there as in the US. I certainly wouldn't know if that's true. JKR seemed to at least be saying that Snape's teeth were noticebly worse than other wizards.
Perhaps growing up in a half-muggle household that may have been heavily dominated by his father, he was never given magical treatments for his teeth, as well as perhaps not having the resources to get muggle dental care. Although I'd have thought with the medical care systems he'd have had access to dental care. Perhaps not braces.
Torill - Jun 2, 2006 4:58 am (#2276 of 2969)
Edited Jun 2, 2006 5:58 am
Kind of afraid to put my ore in here, Ann, as I have in no way read up on all the past Snape discussions of this board - but I felt I had to protest that Snape's tendency to be defensive, insulting and intimidating should be proof that he is of working class origin. That is sort of prejudist, isn't it? Presume that it is the working class people who would mostly be like that, while richer people would be nicer. I mean, Lucius Malfoy, aristocrat as he is clearly depicted to be, is not any less insulting and intimidating than Snape for instance - not to mention his son Draco... And the "gang" loyalty of the houses, with their different colours, pertains to each and every student at Hogwarts, no matter their backgrounds.
Also - I am not even convinced that the house in Spinner's End is his childhood home. Why should it be? But you have perhaps rehashed that topic a hundred times already, so... :-)
wynnleaf - Jun 2, 2006 6:54 am (#2277 of 2969)
Edited by Catherine Jun 2, 2006 3:07 pm
Torill,
I'm not sure which of all the discussion you might be referring to, but I'll try to recap a bit of the discussion over the thread that could have produced some of the thoughts you mention.
1. Spinners End. Of course, we don't know for certain that it's Snape's home. But it appeared to be somebody's home. It was not a purebloods home. Narcissa and Bella comment that they're likely the "first of our kind" to come there. By that, many presume they mean the first purebloods. So it's a home belonging to a non-pureblood wizard, currently occupied by Snape. And Peter refers to it as Snape's home when talking to Snape. Of course, Snape could have purchased it as an adult, but it seems a strange place to purchase. And why, if he bought it as an adult, would he put a small library in the house? He doesn't go there on holidays (he tends to stay at Hogwarts). Most professors I know (and I know a lot ), tend to keep their books where they live, not some far off residence. So I think we can guess that this is Snape's family home and the books were there as he grew up.
2. If Spinners End is his home, where is it? Fans from England generally seem to think it's in a mill town in Northern England -- something about all the descriptions. There's a link to a great article about that earlier in April or May's posts. A lot of people speculate near Manchester, but there are other possibilities.
3. If Snape is from a working class mill town in Northern England some people speculate that part of his manner of speaking could reflect a blunt, plain speaking style of that area. "Dunderhead" is apparently commonly used in certain areas of Northern England. Of course, this may be no more accurate than people in the US characterizing certain regions of the country for politeness, and others for very plain spoken styles. Still, JKR could have used that, sort of like a writer having a character from the US deep south speak very politely with lots of "yes ma'am" and "yes, sir."
But more than the effects of his roots, would be the effect of being put into Slytherin with those roots, as well as developing an enmity with the Marauders.
What would be the effect of a kid from a possibly poor, working class, Northern England, part-muggle background, placed in Slytherin where the emphasis is on blood purity, with lots of "old" wizarding families? And then there's Sirius and James, from very wealthy pureblood families.
"Snivellus" sounds like the kind of name younger kids come up with -- a name to pick on a crying kid. So you've got even in their early years the wealthy elite kids picking on the poor, working class kid. And accents can count, too. They help accentuate that difference.
And then there's the "otherness" of being very bright and highly creative. The HBP notes clearly show a high degree of creativity and brightness. That doesn't necessarily mean the kid is separated from age peers, but it can especially if there are a lot of other factors also separating the kid -- social class, looks, etc.
It's pretty easy to take that as a starting point and see where defensiveness got started, and the insults and intimidation as a way of defending himself. Without any other way to "fight back," I can easily see a very bright kid with no other real social attributes (family, looks, athletic ability, social ability), using his wit to fight back and to make him feel better about himself.
You know, I don't have to imagine this kind of thing. I've known a number of people who have done the same thing.
I removed the link to a livejournal account. Any questions, please email me at [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]--Catherine
journeymom - Jun 2, 2006 9:44 am (#2278 of 2969)
"Also - I am not even convinced that the house in Spinner's End is his childhood home. Why should it be? But you have perhaps rehashed that topic a hundred times already, so... :-) "
On reading HBP the first time it didn't even occur to me that Spinner's End might be Snape's childhood home. I kind of figured it was just some little out of the way house that LV bought (speculation, of course) so he could keep an eye on Pettigrew and Snape at the same time.
But wynnleaf, you make a good point about all the books. They make it look like he's lived there for years.
Except maybe that implies Snape is SUCH a book worm that he keeps his overflow at a separate residence. As an adult, a death eater and a spy he might have found it useful to have a small house separate from Hogwarts.
haymoni - Jun 2, 2006 9:47 am (#2279 of 2969)
Perhaps the books are Muggle books, so he keeps them "at home".
journeymom - Jun 2, 2006 9:52 am (#2280 of 2969)
Hmm, yes, lots and lots of Jane Austen.
haymoni - Jun 2, 2006 10:26 am (#2281 of 2969)
LOL
Very good!
wynnleaf - Jun 2, 2006 11:00 am (#2282 of 2969)
I work at a college and my office is near to a number of faculty offices, plus I get to see other faculty moving in and out on a somewhat regular basis. They always have a ton of books and are often trying to find places to put them between their home and office. But everybody seems to be quite adament about keeping all their books with them.
So I'm really only going on that... I just figure most of the book lovers I know might have a select stash at their getaway cabin, or beach place, or where ever they might have a regular holiday place, but the bulk of the books stay with them.
The description of the house at Spinners End was (as I recall) walls lined with books. That's a lot of books, even for a smallish living room.
Plus, if this was his family's home, then his mother, perhaps, having lots of books could explain his advanced knowledge of magic when he first went to Hogwarts.
I think we can be pretty sure it's Snape's house, just because Pettigrew said it was when talking to Snape. But we don't know for sure how he got the house.
Rea - Jun 2, 2006 11:47 am (#2283 of 2969)
My mother teaches chemistry in a university, here in Rome: she has her books both in her office and at home; my aunt as well is a professor and she has an office that looks like a library (it is a library indeed), and her house looks like that too.
Magic Words - Jun 2, 2006 1:29 pm (#2284 of 2969)
I wouldn't be surprised if many of those books contained Dark Arts material that is better off kept someplace other than Hogwarts.
Choices - Jun 2, 2006 4:31 pm (#2285 of 2969)
If Madame Pince does turn out to be Snape's mother and Spinner's End his childhood home, that would also explain all the books. She is a librarian and loves books.
Soul Search - Jun 2, 2006 7:28 pm (#2286 of 2969)
Choices,
I think you have hit on the reason there was a mention of books in "Spinner's End."
winlia - Jun 2, 2006 7:29 pm (#2287 of 2969)
Severus can aparate from the grounds outside Hogwarts to Spinner's End, so where he keeps his books is probably less important to him than it would be to a muggle professor.
Like Snape, I'm well educated and come from a modest, working-class background. (I do have good teeth, though.
) I grew up in the 60's near the Chicago stockyards; my father was a machinist in one of the meat-packing houses. We weren't poor, but many (most) of my friends were. These days I work in as a chemist in the quality assurance dept. of a factory. In my experience, blue collar workers aren't any nastier or more plain spoken than white collar folks, although I can dredge up some interesting slang from my youth. (I once jokingly called a five dollar bill a "fin" and got a blank look from my husband.)
I certainly don't want to insult anyone, but Snape's formality and excessive aversion to being teased or the butt of a joke seem to me to be characteristics of someone who doesn't feel entirely comfortable. He seems insecure, and my interpretation is that his lack of confidence is probably in part because of his background, because he wasn't born to the world that he now inhabits. Snape's fastidious clothing in the movies fits in with my idea of someone who doesn't want to stand out as not knowing what's appropriate. (It also fits in with my approach to my attire at the company Christmas parties.)
I've done a poor job of getting my idea across, but I don't quite know how to improve on it. Can someone help me out? Or set me straight?? Whatever it takes...
Ann - Jun 2, 2006 8:34 pm (#2288 of 2969)
Edited Jun 2, 2006 9:39 pm
Torill, the remark I made about Snape being "defensive, insulting and intimidating" wasn't meant to apply to his working class roots at all, but to associate him with a specific subset of that--the "street tough." The sort of young man who has a gang and hangs out on street corners and verbally (at least) harasses rival gangs and often random passersby as well. I didn't at all mean to imply that all young men of the working class are street toughs, although few members of the upper or upper middle class are convincing in such a role. Just that this was a group of people that I could see Snape growing up in proximity to and imitating a bit (and ultimately reacting against, to some extent).
The only comments I made about the working class in general was that there tends to be less emphasis on refined manners and dental care. Not that there aren't working class people with excellent manners and lovely teeth, but, as I say, it's less of an obsession than it is with the upper middles. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear and offended anyone. (She says, defensively.)
I agree with winlia's remarks about Snape being a little insecure about his dress and behavior (and possibly accent--the exaggeratedly educated, sometimes almost archaic, mode of speech when addressing secondary school children strikes me as an over-correction).
wynnleaf - Jun 2, 2006 9:32 pm (#2289 of 2969)
Edited Jun 2, 2006 10:33 pm
As regards Severus speech as an adult...
Ann said and possibly accent--the exaggeratedly educated, sometimes almost archaic, mode of speech when addressing secondary school children strikes me as an over-correction).
But it may be something different. Some people that aren't very social, but read a lot will often tend to talk like they read. I remember a woman giving a personal example of this when she described being awakened in her dorm room by a drunken student pounding on her door and shouting in the mistaken belief that it was that student's room. The usual response might be "shut up and go away," but this woman yelled, "cease and desist!" And it was perfectly natural for her to do say that. In the particular circle of friends where this woman told her tale, almost everyone identified (including me!).
I think Severus' pattern of speech was initially learned, but it may have been more from doing lots and lots of reading and it has probably become very natural to him. Notice that even when he is completely furious, he never drops his manner of speech. If he had a very Northern English accent, he appears to have dropped that, too, although that would come from probably having a great ear and a conscious decision to change.
Torill - Jun 3, 2006 4:13 am (#2290 of 2969)
Thank you for that excellent recap, wynnleaf! I agree that it is as good as certain that Spinner's End is Snape's home, I definitely came away from HBP with that impression. But that is not the same as saying it is his childhood home. This seems a bit of a far stretch to me. The few glimpses we have from his childhood indicates that he didn't grow up in a happy home - so why should he choose to keep living there as an adult when he doesn't have to; when his wages as a professor at Hogwarts in all likelihood would provide him with means for far better accomodations?
I could see him buy the house as an adult for several reasons - one being that Snape with seclusiveness and secrecy as core traits of his personality would love to live in surrouondings where no one would think he would live. He doesn't want callers. This wouldn't work as well if he just stayed on living in his childhood home, several people would know about that after all.
I too think it is highly likely that the books described lining the walls in the living room are his collection of Dark Arts books; a collection he just can't have at display in his office at Hogwarts. No matter what we may think of his loyalties, Snape is not described as having given up his interest in the Dark Arts. This precious forbidden collection may actually be the chief reason why he would want such an unlikely and hidden place of residence as Spinner's End...
But my first thought when I read the book, with its hint of the living room giving one the feeling of a "padded cell", was that this was a place of keeping someone almost under lock and key as it were: Peter. He is showed in this chapter to be practically Snape's prisoner, and he needs to be kept safely away from both the Order and the Ministry. Not just for his own good - he can't be trusted by the DEs either, at least I am sure this is how Voldedmort sees it. The place is described as giving the feeling of not having been lived in for quite a while - this may mean that Snape and Peter have indeed moved in there quite recently, at Voldemort's orders. Snape would defintiely have brought his precious book collection if he expected this arrangement to last a while; while he would not necessarily think the place needed redecoration.
Ann - I am sorry if I came across as a bit defensive - I probably was. I grew up in middle class surroundings, but both my parents came from solid working class backgrounds (my mother even from a poor family), and so does the man in my life. I am very sensitive to the all too widespread idea that working class people are coarser, ruder and less sensitive to other people's needs than the upper classes are, even if their manners of speech may be less influenced by books...
But this aside - my point is that you do not need to look at class background to explain Snape's abysmally cruel and insensitive behaviour towards the kids in his care. Having been around "street toughs" is not necessary to learn how to insult and intimidate others - upper class kids are in every way capable of putting each other down and bully the less fortunate in just as elaborate ways as are the street toughs. I have heard them.... so have several of you, I am sure.
As for how Snape fared in Slytherin in his school days - I would think that the problem of being a half blood was a bigger issue there than being working class. Muggle father as such would be a potential bad thing to have in that house; but I don't think richer or poorer Muggle father would have made much of a difference.
And I disagree that we learn from HBP how Snape was a bright but basically defenseless kid who would need to learn how to snide people with smart remarks in order to defend himself. The main reason why he was James' victim was his obsession with the Dark Arts, and that at a time when Voldemort was at the rise. I think this factor cannot be ruled out, or emphasized too strongly. To compare it with RL for a moment, bearing in mind what the Dark Arts are supposed to represent in the books: if I had had an eleven year old in my class when I was a teacher, who were obsessed with torture instruments and methods and knew a disturbingly high amount of details about those; and this was something he had apparently picked up at home - I would have found it very alarming! Snape was NOT defenseless - HE was the one who invented the levicorpus spell James used against him in that infamous worst memory moment - for this to have become a fad in the school to the point where you couldn't walk the corridors for fear of being hoisted upside down in the air as Lupin said; Snape must have used this against others on more than one occation himself. This sheds a different light on that occation I think: Snape was ok with using this spell against others, but don't anyone dare use it against him!!! He also invented the horrible Sectumsempra spell - and from the description of its effects, it does indeed seem as if this was the spell he used against James in OotP - only he hit him on the cheek instead of the chest, lucky for James...
No, Snape was not a defenselsess victim. And he did not take to the Dark Arts as a defense against his bullies at Hogwarts, he was deeply invested in them when he arrived at school already. I think the dynamics between Snape and the marauders, and Snape and the rest of the students for that matter, was more complicated than the insecure bully vitcim compensating for his humiliations..
wynnleaf - Jun 3, 2006 6:28 am (#2291 of 2969)
Edited Jun 3, 2006 7:38 am
Torill,
And he did not take to the Dark Arts as a defense against his bullies at Hogwarts, he was deeply invested in them when he arrived at school already.
You know, the basis for this idea that Snape knew a huge amount of Dark Arts at 11 years old, and was obsessed by them -- that's something Lupin said, remember?
Lupin also told Harry that Snape's main reason for disliking James was jealousy over Quidditch, neglecting at the time to say anything to Harry about the bullying. During the same time period he was telling Harry that, he was not telling DD that Sirius (supposed mass murderer) was an animagus, or knew the secret passageways into Hogwarts.
It is Lupin who gave this excuse to Harry about why they disliked Snape -- Lupin who wants to keep the good opinion of people he cares about.
But what did Sirius say? On the "Snape's worst memory" scene, he said it was just because Snape existed.
And the nickname they gave him, probably as pretty young kids? Snivelus seems to refer to a crying kid. It's a derogatory nickname that evokes a sort of weepy weak feeling -- not exactly the kind of nickname you'd give to the school bully, is it?
Frankly, I don't think the testimony of Lupin -- one of the Maruaders, one that sat by and did nothing while Snape was bullied by Lupin's friends -- is the one to trust for a good characterization of Snape or a good description of what Snape knew or didn't know about Dark Arts as a kid.
I don't complete discount Lupin's remark, but I'd certainly take it with a grain of salt.
Fawkes Egg - Jun 3, 2006 7:05 am (#2292 of 2969)
Wynnleaf,
I would agree with you if it wasn't for the fact that the adult Lupin feels incredible guilt for his actions, or lack of action, as a schoolboy. Whilst he has a deep need to have a the good opinion of those he cares about, he feels shame over how satisfying that need has led to trouble: in PoA he admits to an internal struggle over telling Dumbledore that Sirius is an Animagus, and his rationalization of his attitude to Snape in HbP: "Dumbledore trusts him and therefore so do I" is perhaps partly born of his need for Dumbledore's approval and his guilt over his past actions towards Snape. This is reflectd in how he rationalizes his behaviour, and Snapes's behaviour, to Harry.
We gain further insight into Lupin's ambiguous (part guilt/part need for DD's approval) feelings towards Snape when Harry tells him why DD trusted Snape. Lupin breaks down at that point, seeing perhaps that his guilt and his need for DD's approval of his own attitudes is based on an apparently incredibly naive view of Snape on Dumbledore's part. I saw that scene as very telling: Lupin has spent much of his adult life plagued by guilt over his attitude as a schoolboy, perhaps not just towards Snape but to others that James and Sirius may have bullied too. Dumbledore, who trusts Snape, or repeatedly says he does, is probably the one person whose good opinion means everything to Lupin (he says as much in PoA). Then Lupin finds that Dumbledore's trust of Snape is apparently based on the flimsiest possible excuse - and all his guilt, all his efforts as being seen as A Good Person by Dumbledore, including trusting Snape, come crashing down.
In this reaction of Lupin's to hearing that Snape killed Dumbledore, we can see that Lupin has spent a great deal of (now apparently wasted) effort in developing a reasoned, rational, mature approach to his adult, post-schoolboy relationship with Snape - including rationalising his past behaviour, Snape's past behaviour, and the past behaviour of James and Sirius. He's actually WORKED on being reasonable about it all in hindsight - which is why Dumbledore's death at Snape's hands causes him to crumble as he does. It's also the reason why I'd tend to trust Lupin's opinions - he's worked so hard at being sensible and rational, based on the guilt/need for approval that he's carried with him all his life.
Does that make sense?
wynnleaf - Jun 3, 2006 7:55 am (#2293 of 2969)
Edited Jun 3, 2006 9:01 am
Fawkes Egg,
Yes, in many ways it does make sense.
But think back to what Lupin had said -- Sirius, by the way, asserted more or less the same thing. Lupin said that Snape knew a lot about Dark Arts is a young kid, when he came to Hogwarts. When Snape was 11, Lupin was 11. Similar thing goes for Sirius. Sirius said that Snape was this "little oddball" and into the Dark Arts. This was Sirius' view from when Sirius was a kid.
In other words, Lupin, Sirius and apparently James made these assessments of Snape-the-kid when they were themselves only 11. Over the next 7 years they used this assessment, apparently, as justification (right or wrong) for their enmity with him. And certainly Severus did grow in knowledge of the Dark Arts over his years at Hogwarts. Which would tend to make the Marauders even more sure of their initial judgement. But we have no evidence that their initial judgement, at age 11, was correct.
Later, as adults, when Harry asks for clarification and for reasons for their own behavior, Lupin and Sirius both fall back on this as part of the reasoning.
But Snape has a repeated assertion that they ganged up on him, 2, 3, and 4 to 1, which is at least backed up by the pensieve scene. Further, when Harry goes through Filch's detention files, he notes many detentions for the Marauders, but we don't see him finding any on Snape. While this certainly doesn't mean Snape never did anything, it does make me wonder about the Marauders.
I do not like to use the word of one of the parties involved, without some extra evidence. We don't have any evidence other than Sirius and Lupin's comments, that Snape was so very, very into the Dark Arts as a young child. And yet they had plenty of reason to desire that excuse in order to justify their actions. So I just don't think we should consider those comments entirely dependable.
As regards Snape's comments about the Marauders, we do have the objective evidence of the pensieve scene where they did indeed "gang up" on him and where it was entirely unjustified. Further, we have a bit of evidence in Filch's detention files that the Marauders seemed to get into a lot more trouble than Snape.
Where, exactly, was he supposed to have learned all those Dark Arts prior to Hogwarts? We don't fully know his history, but we have got hints that his father dominated the family. This wasn't like the Blacks -- a major Dark Arts family. This was a part muggle family, perhaps dominated by the muggle father. Sure, his mother may have been into Dark Arts -- but I doubt if she was anything like the Blacks, since she did marry a muggle. So what does that leave us? Mom had a lot of Dark Arts books at home and Severus read them? Possible, I suppose. But wouldn't she have had to be interested in Dark Arts to have a lot of books on it? And if she was so into Dark Arts, would she be the type to marry a muggle, much less be dominated by him? Maybe Severus visited some Dark Arts relatives often -- but we've had no hint of any Snape relatives so far.
I'm absolutely not trying to say Snape was a nice kid who went bad because of the nasty Marauders. But we don't really have any evidence to back up Lupin and Sirius' comments. And they had every reason to feel really comfortable about their assumptions about Snape -- it helped justify them. Lupin wouldn't even necessarily have been lying (a knowing falsehood), he could simply have convinced himself that his assessment at age 11 was correct.
So what do I think? I think Snape came to Hogwarts out of a somewhat abusive family, fairly poor, part muggle. I think his mom owned a lot of books and Snape read them and knew a lot before he came of all sorts of magic. If he cried a lot in 1st year, it probably wasn't from being homesick. Maybe more from feeling very out of place and insecure. I think Snape in school was probably very insecure, resentful, and bitter. My guess is he dealt with some of this by trying to look down on others from the vantage point of his intellect, which he used to develop weapons to fight people he felt were ganging up on him. I imagine he turned to the Dark side looking for people to affirm him, trying to find a place to "fit in." I'd bet the Lucius (about 6 years older) met him and used that need to develop Snape into his sort of protege -- probably mainly just to use him. Lucius seems like the type. Snape was certainly willing to use the Dark magic he created. It probably was the sectumsempra Snape used on James, although a much more controlled cut than Harry's wildly waving wand action produced. Snape as an adult, by the way, is very up front in HBP about that being Dark magic.
Hollywand - Jun 3, 2006 8:28 am (#2294 of 2969)
Torrill makes some great observations on Snape's dark nature. I would counter, Wynnleaf, that Rowling give us Seveus as a pretty young boy blasting flies from the ceiling. We could contrast this to Harry's confinement under the stairs by the Dursleys where he is trapped with spiders on his socks. Harry doesn't mind the spiders and accepts them, even though he is placed in an extremely poverty stricken position emotionally and physically.
Rowling also gives us young Tom Riddle, who is well into using his intuitive gift to humiliate and command others, well before he learns he is magical.
Rowling seems to make an important point with the Marauders that being in a position of power can seduce the powerful into using their power unfairly. James is a great example of this when he humiliates Severus. But I think Torrill's points are excellent that Severus is creatively constructing his own dark magic and using it to his strategic, and not always ethical advantage.
wynnleaf - Jun 3, 2006 9:35 am (#2295 of 2969)
Edited Jun 3, 2006 10:36 am
But I think Torrill's points are excellent that Severus is creatively constructing his own dark magic and using it to his strategic, and not always ethical advantage.
Yes, this is certainly true. We have evidence from the HBP notes that he was clearly using his abilities to devise means to fight against those he perceived as his enemies. But we actually have no evidence that he was doing that prior to Hogwarts, or that he actually came to Hogwarts well-versed in Dark Magic. We only have the comments of those who considered themselves his enemies at the time.
Snape very clearly went down a different path from Harry. There are a lot of parallels between the two, and Harry never took Dark paths, where Severus obviously did.
But I guess I don't like to see us make Snape out to be even worse than we actually know him to be. We know he created some nasty hexes and at least one dark magic curse -- sectumsempra. We know he eventually became a DE. We don't know for how long, but we know he went back to DD at approximately age 20.
But we don't know that he was into the Dark Arts from an early age. We don't know that he was some 11 year old interested in how to torture people, or other nasty interests. We have really no evidence of that.
On the flies and spiders thing -- I come from an area that has certain months with many flies. Anyone killing flies in the house would be considered to be doing a good thing. When I was a kid we had fly hunts. The saying was, "kill one fly and 10 come to the funeral." Killing spiders is generally bad (unless they're poisonous) because they kill flies and mosquitoes. I just can't get worked up about a kid zapping the flies in his room. Although I imagine JKR put it in there to show some sort picture of a bored kid killing insects. But I could never see it as a negative.
Hollywand - Jun 3, 2006 9:59 am (#2296 of 2969)
Wynnleaf, you list in your post above a whole lot of reasons to consider Snape a willfully dark wizard.
It seems to me that folks who like Snape's character spend a lot of effort defending away his cruel intentions, and yet offering very little understanding to other characters like Lupin or Sirius or James. For example, Snape's decision to become a Death Eater will, for me, forever taint him as a character with some very unflattering personality flaws. I can understand James' adolescent arrogance, and Lupin's desire to fit in, and Sirius' foolhardy love of risk, and even see that they retreated from these positions as they got older and wiser. Snape's foray into the dark side is much more difficult to explain away and overlook and even forgive, even though I trust Dumbledore's judgement that Severus is loyal to the ultimate goal of overcoming the Dark Lord.
Compassion for every living thing is a key element to Rowling's series, including spiders, flies and snakes. Harry has much more of it than Snape, Voldemort, Draco or James even, and I believe Rowling has been advancing this subplot throughout the series. If you look at the series, the references to spiders are legion, as well as deeply connected to compassion and keys to advancing the stories. Treatment of the animal world is central to the book. So I would argue, aside from liking or seeing the usefulness of living beings does not trump showing respect or compassion for them.
Ann - Jun 3, 2006 10:11 am (#2297 of 2969)
Edited Jun 3, 2006 11:17 am
Excellent points, Torill, wynnleaf, FawkesEgg and Hollywand.
I especially liked the spider-fly contrast. Spiders trap flies too--I wonder if one could make anything of that. Has anyone ever thought about how many spiders there are in this series? Almost as omnipresent as socks--including the Sphinx's riddle, the first part of which which foreshadows Snape's role a few chapters later.
As for Snape and Dark magic, it's actually Sirius who stresses the Dark Arts connection, both when the trio visit him in the cave and in Harry's Floo call after viewing Snape's memory. Remus doesn't disagree, but it's Sirius that twice brings this up and stresses it. And it is peculiar, as wynnleaf points out--where would Snape learn Dark magic? Perhaps someone taught him one spell (Malfoy?), and Sirius (clearly reacting against his own family, and probably knowing nothing about Snape's) over generalized? Sirius would have had plenty of opportunity to learn, given his family background, but all we know about Eileen Prince is that she's good at Gobstones (which isn't at all Dark--and really sounds like a pretty silly game to have a school team in). We haven't heard of any Snape cousins who became Death Eaters (although I suppose JKR would have hesitated to tell us if there were, lest she spoil the surprise at the end of HBP).
So, could Sirius be projecting a bit?
There is clearly a lot of anger there (hence the Sectumsempera), but the Levicorpus is more the sort of joke spell that the kids all use, like Jellylegs. And I've never understood how it became a fad--it's a non-verbal spell, after all.
--Cross-posted with Hollywand (I got interrupted while typing)--
wynnleaf - Jun 3, 2006 11:53 am (#2298 of 2969)
Edited Jun 3, 2006 12:58 pm
Wynnleaf, you list in your post above a whole lot of reasons to consider Snape a willfully dark wizard.
Of course, because as far as we know he was willfully a dark wizard by the time he was around 17 or 18.
It seems to me that folks who like Snape's character spend a lot of effort defending away his cruel intentions, and yet offering very little understanding to other characters like Lupin or Sirius or James.
I do not defend Snape's cruel intentions, where we know that his intentions are cruel. Additionally, there is practically no reason to defend Lupin, Sirius, or James, since practically everyone is agreed that they are on the "good" side and are mostly nice guys. What I sometimes find difficult to deal with is the notion that people who come across as pleasant and nice, just naturally have good intentions, their word can be trusted, etc. Whereas people who are generally disagreeable, sarcastic, resentful etc., are likely to be much worse than even what one can see for certain. (I am not saying that you implied that, Hollywand.) To me, it shows an overabundance of compassion and an unwillingness to consider fault for the people that seem nice, but a lack of compassion and willingness to search for even greater fault toward those who are unpleasant. This is simply my personal opinion and not meant as a judgement on anyone.
If you look at the series, the references to spiders are legion, as well as deeply connected to compassion and keys to advancing the stories. Treatment of the animal world is central to the book. So I would argue, aside from liking or seeing the usefulness of living beings does not trump showing respect or compassion for them.
With regards the spiders, I'm not completely sure of what point of mine you were commenting on. Yes, I'm well aware that spiders are important to the books and there's a lot of symbolic meaning attached to them. Yes, I think JKR used the fly killing memory to give us another glimpse of Snape. But do I really think killing flies is cruel? Absolutely not.
In RL, I would certainly kill a poisonous spider in my house, but overall we do not kill spiders. I did not notice much respect or compassion in the books for blast ended skrewts other than from Hagrid; or for poor Nagini (after all, can she help being possessed by LV?); or for the basilisk (what more is it than an overgrown deadly snake?). I can't see much difference between a basilisk and a black widow spider other than size and degree of deadliness. Why didn't we see compassion and respect for those creatures, if it's so important in the books for that to be accorded all living things? I do agree that there's a sense in the books that weaker things should be accorded compassion, but I don't see that applied to all living things.
Ann,
I like and agree with your post.
I think I'll bow out of this discussion for awhile.... have fun!
Hollywand - Jun 3, 2006 12:32 pm (#2299 of 2969)
Edited Jun 3, 2006 1:33 pm
Well, I would say that Rowling offers plenty of critical perspectives on the Marauders. Harry eventually realizes that his father is arrogant. Harry is objective enough to realize that, even though he would love to have an idealistic memory of his father he longs for. To Sirius' great credit, I think, he is honest with Harry and admits that he and James were "arrogant berks" and he's not proud of it.
I would say that Severus still lacks compassion, even after returning to Hogwarts. His encounter with Harry during Harry's foray into his memories demonstrates this concept. Harry invades the memories of both Dumbledore and Snape; Snape responds by throwing a glass jar at Harry (full of cockroaches), which could have very seriously injured him physically. Dumbledore stops Harry, but certainly doesn't try to physically hurt him.
I think Hagrid and his compassion for animals, even animals others think of as useless will be a strong central theme of the "red and gold" final book. Ironically, I think Harry will ultimately be required to extend compassion to Snape as part of the resolution of the series.
Ann - Jun 3, 2006 1:33 pm (#2300 of 2969)
wynnleaf, it was Hollywand's observation about the contrast between Snape's treatment of flies and Harry's of spiders that I was commenting on. I agree that compassion for flies isn't really required, but I do think her point, that Snape is zapping them idly, without even thinking about it, may have merit.
But Hollywand, I don't think you can compare the two Pensieve invasions, really. When Harry invades Dumbledore's Pensieve, it's a result of his curiosity--he doesn't know what the thing is, and the memories that he sees are just what happens to be there. When he invades Snape's, he knows very well that he is invading Snape's private and most sensitive memories, and that those memories have been put into the Pensieve specifically because Snape does not want him to see them. In Dumbledore's Pensieve, he sees Dumbledore acting wisely and compassionately as a judge. In Snape's Pensieve, he sees his teacher dangled upside down by his own charm, his knickers exposed, and laughed at by the surrounding students. No comparison.
As for Snape and compassion, well, he clearly hasn't shown much to Harry, who he regards as his childhood torturer reborn. However, we've seen him grip a chairback so hard that his knuckles whiten when he hears that Ginny Weasley has been taken in Book 2, and we've seen him croon a healing charm over Draco in Book 6. We've also seen him calm Narcissa by giving her a glass of wine, promising to help Draco as much as he can, and then putting his life on the line by Vowing to do so. He may have other motivations, but he does it. (And that's the only scene where we've seen Snape without the Harry filter.) Otherwise, we have only Harry's view of things, which is far from charitable. We never see him with friends or colleagues or with his Slytherins. So I don't think we really know what he's like.
Hollywand - Jun 3, 2006 1:57 pm (#2301 of 2969)
Hi Ann. I agree with you in that Rowling consistently minimizes Snape's admirable actions and lovingly stokes the cauldron of anger toward Snape when she can. ;-)
I still think, however, and I know we've flogged this poor topic to death, that Snape, as an adult, should exercise more self-control with his anger when Harry snoops. Perhaps a twelve-week, touchy feely Anger Management Class for our Slytherin Head of House. I can just see the look on his face right this second.
Ironically, at the close of book six, Severus does lose his temper with Harry and reveals a whole cache of very personal details about himself---ironic, since he has just chided Harry to keep his mind closed and his mouth shut. ;-) And his earlier comment to Harry about exercising emotional restraint.
It's great to read your contribution. I won't go into a bunch of Alchemy mumbo-jumbo here, but spiders, flies, snakes, rabbits, all of these are symbols that carry larger meaning as metaphors in the series. Oh yes, and as you pointed out, references to hanging, one of Jo's favorite childhood pastimes with her sister Di.
Saracene - Jun 3, 2006 6:17 pm (#2302 of 2969)
Personally, I tend to believe that Snape really was into Dark Arts when at school; and for their own sake rather than a mean to defend himself or whatever. Granted, most of that information comes from Sirius who hated Snape, but I tend to think that Sirius wasn't lying simply because JKR has never indicated that what Sirius said about Snape's fascination with Dark Arts was untrue. There is only so much space she is going to devote to the characters' backgrounds; when she wants to show that what Harry (and we the readers) had believed previously about a person was untrue, she clearly indicates so.
wynnleaf - Jun 3, 2006 6:29 pm (#2303 of 2969)
Edited Jun 3, 2006 7:30 pm
Personally, I tend to believe that Snape really was into Dark Arts when at school; and for their own sake rather than a mean to defend himself or whatever.
Just jumping in to quickly say I mostly agree with this. I just don't put much into the assertion that Snape knew more Dark magic when he started Hogwarts than most upper years. Where'd he learn it? His mom, who married a muggle and was perhaps dominated by him, practiced the Dark Arts? That doesn't seem to fit. So where'd did he learn it? How would 11 year olds like Sirius or Lupin know he knew that level of Dark Arts? I just think that was exaggeration and a belief they held on to in order to justify their own actions. But when you say he was into them "for their own sake," well, something would move a person in that direction, something he was perhaps searching for.
Magic Words - Jun 3, 2006 6:41 pm (#2304 of 2969)
Saracene, when you say he was into Dark Arts "for their own sake" do you mean as an intellectual curiosity? I think that's a possibility, and I think if it is the case it isn't nearly as bad as being into them for the sake of power or even self-defense.
winlia - Jun 3, 2006 6:43 pm (#2305 of 2969)
It seems to me that folks who like Snape's character spend a lot of effort defending away his cruel intentions, and yet offering very little understanding to other characters like Lupin or Sirius or James.
Hollywand
At the end of the day, Snape's classroom cruelties (remark about Hermione's teeth, calling Neville an "Idiot boy", etc.) won't do much to hinder those to whom they are addressed. Neville won't be stunted in his development; he'll come into his own and most likely kill Bellatrix in book 7. Harry will, of course, defeat LV.
Even though Snape is an adult and should know better, and Harry has had a horrible upbringing and should be crippled emotionally, it's Harry who has warm, healthy relationships and for whom the future is bright. Snape's nastiness is more palatable because it seems as though he isn't doing any lasting harm.
I can't speak for the other Snape fans, but I find myself feeling sorry for him, even though I realize that he's often cruel.
Hollywand - Jun 3, 2006 7:11 pm (#2306 of 2969)
Winlia, I respectfully disagree. I teach, and I am well aware of many instances where a teacher's remark, humiliating a student, especially in front of their peers, can be taken to be casual and have no effect. The examples you cite in your post demonstrate, to my mind, that defenders of Snape's character gloss over the injuries he inflicts and make him into a heroic figure. It is to Hermione and Neville's credit they are able to overcome Snape's cruelty, and not something that has very little significance.
Jo Rowling seems bewildered that so many of her readers like the Snape character---she definitely doesn't see him as a romantic interest or even compelling dinner company. Snape does stoke the tension in the group; that seems to be her primary interest in the character.
Predicting a positive outcome for Harry's inner circle of friends doesn't excuse Snape's petty childishness, especially in someone who is in a position of authority of other who are under his care.
Magic Words - Jun 3, 2006 7:42 pm (#2307 of 2969)
I see myself as a Snape defender, but if I come across as making him into a heroic figure, it's not my intention. A tragic hero or an anti-hero, maybe. He's not a wonderful character and I'd rather not start counting his potentially fatal flaws, but he does incite pity, for some readers at least. And he does perform heroic actions (I think ). And he probably will fall.
Saracene - Jun 3, 2006 7:43 pm (#2308 of 2969)
Edited Jun 3, 2006 8:53 pm
Magic Words - yes, "intellectual curiosity" is probaby what I'd describe it as. Or maybe by saying that for Snape Dark Arts may have been an end in itself, rather than means to an end such as power, intimidation, self-defence, etc.
I do feel sorry for Snape though I also think that he's a deeply awful person with extremely few redeeming qualities. I'm convinced he's on the good side and I'd defend him as far as the question of his loyalties goes, but not when it comes to his personality and his treatment of students. Honestly, some HP forums I've been on paint Snape in such rosy-tinted colours it makes my jaw drop.
wynnleaf - Jun 3, 2006 8:04 pm (#2309 of 2969)
Edited Jun 3, 2006 9:09 pm
The examples you cite in your post demonstrate, to my mind, that defenders of Snape's character gloss over the injuries he inflicts and make him into a heroic figure.
While I agree that he says some appallingly insulting things sometimes, we have yet to be shown in canon how any of the students have been injured by Snape -- in the long run. I'm not saying that to diminish his actions, but after all, even Neville is growing in courage and self-esteem. If JKR were going to show anyone really scarred by Snape, wouldn't it be Neville?
As to the heroic part, well if a hero is someone who exhibits exeptional courage, nobility and strength (dictionary there), and if Snape is really fulfilling DD's orders and is still DD's man, then with the exception perhaps of nobility, one would have to say he fit the definition. So maybe that makes him an anti-hero somewhat.
Thing is, insulting one's students doesn't (if he's on the good side), negate his other actions. You can't say, "he sure is mean, no matter what he risks or achieves for the Light, he won't be heroic because he's mean to his students." That just fits right in with what I said earlier. This tendency to think only the best of pleasant people, but be unable to accept acts of great good for what they are just because the person is quite unpleasant.
After all that transpired in HBP, if Snape is on the good side, then it's pretty clear he's risked a great deal more than most of the Order, to achieve victory against LV. Being insulting and cruel to his students doesn't negate what he's doing for the Order. One can't say, "yes that would have been true heroism, but because he's mean to his students, it's not."
What I like about this character is that he's not a card-board cut-out of either villian or hero.
Edit to comment on post below: Where would Hermione have got books on the Dark Arts? Flourish and Blots? She'd have bought them, right? Snape, if you recall, was apparently using his mom's used textbooks. Would he have been able to go buy books at Flourish and Blots? Do they sell Dark Arts books there? Would he have had the money to buy books? I don't think his family had as much money as Hermione's.
Solitaire - Jun 3, 2006 8:06 pm (#2310 of 2969)
where would Snape learn Dark magic?
If Hermione were interested in the Dark Arts, she would have managed to know plenty about them by the time she entered Hogwarts. She is a voracious reader and would have made it her business to know such information. I suspect Snape was also a reader ... and intelligent enough to have amassed all kinds of information on any subject that interested him sufficiently ... especially if it turns out that his mother is indeed the librarian!
Regarding the Pensieve scene ... I agree that Harry sticking his nose into Snape's Pensieve was a gross violation of Snape's privacy. Frankly, if the memories had not been about James and the Marauders, I doubt he would have stayed in the Pensieve. I can't help wondering, though, at Snape's having left the Pensieve out in the open when he knows how nosy and curious Harry is. I believe it was irresistible bait to snoop, and Harry took it.
I agree, Saracene, that Snape was into the Dark Arts--whether for intellectual curiosity or some other reason, I haven't decided yet. If Snape's mother was verbally abused by her husband, then it is equally possible that Snape was verbally (or even physically) abused, as well.
Remember that Voldemort was recruiting even back in Snape's earliest days at Hogwarts. Perhaps Snape was already making plans for the day when he would have power and authority and could exact his revenge. This could have happened even before he knew the Marauders. However, I have always believed that Sirius knew Snape before they entered Hogwarts. The Snivellus nickname has always made me think that Sirius had seen Snape in circumstances where he cried, possibly as a small child. Perhaps their families had occasion to meet socially, and Sirius witnessed Snape being punished, tormented, and made to cry. Just a thought ...
Hollywand: I teach, and I am well aware of many instances where a teacher's remark, humiliating a student, especially in front of their peers, can be taken to be casual and have no effect.
I must agree, Hollywand. I have taught adolescents for twenty years. Just because a kid seems to blow off a cruel comment in public doesn't mean it hasn't pierced him to the heart. Many times the damage caused by repeated cruel comments cannot be fully known until it manifests itself in some tragic way.
People who have been abused by others seem to react in one of two ways: 1) They are compassionate to others, because they understand how it feels to be bullied and humiliated; or 2) they become tormentors of others, carrying on the vicious tradition. One would like to think a "good guy" would want to spare others the pain he had to endure rather than take his revenge for it on them. JM2K ...
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wynnleaf - Jun 3, 2006 8:28 pm (#2311 of 2969)
Edited Jun 3, 2006 9:29 pm
People who have been abused by others seem to react in one of two ways: 1) They are compassionate to others, because they understand how it feels to be bullied and humiliated; or 2) they become tormentors of others, carrying on the vicious tradition
It is not an "either/or" proposition. Far more common is someone who does care deeply for others, and who does understand what it's like to be bullied and humiliated. However, the person continues to fall back on the practices he or she learned in their youth, often to their own guilt and dismay.
winlia - Jun 3, 2006 9:39 pm (#2312 of 2969)
Edited Jun 3, 2006 10:47 pm
Hollywand, Solitare, and wynnleaf
People in these books don't react the way they would in real life. Harry would never have survived the Dursleys, at least not emotionally. Nor could he deal with the psycological pressure of the impending final showdown with LV--it would be like making an adolescent responsible for an assassination attempt on Attila the Hun. Many things are exaggerated. I don't think it is valid to compare Snape's classroom style with what would be expected or tolerated from a real teacher. Snape's insults are meant to show us that he has a mean streak. Lots of people do, and kids have to learn to deal with them. A few years back, the daughter of a coworker of mine was being picked on by one of her middle school teachers. The girl didn't enjoy school, never had, was a poor to mediocre student, and her lack of scholastic aptitude and ambition annoyed the teacher. Apparently, he much preferred teaching brighter students. It was clearly unfair, but my coworker didn't intervene on the theory that it would prepare her daughter for the day when she had an unfair boss, which happens to many of us. She told her daughter that the teacher was being unfair, and helped her daughter think of strategies to cope with the situation, but she never contacted the school. I'm not sure that my coworker was wrong.
edit: PS I think JKR is being disingenuous when she says that she doesn't understand why her readers like Snape or find him attractive.
Solitaire - Jun 3, 2006 10:14 pm (#2313 of 2969)
Edited Jun 3, 2006 11:23 pm
Wynnleaf: It is not an "either/or" proposition. Far more common is someone who does care deeply for others, and who does understand what it's like to be bullied and humiliated. However, the person continues to fall back on the practices he or she learned in their youth, often to their own guilt and dismay.
I respectfully disagree. A person may very well understand what it is to be bullied and humiliated. However, if he continues to practice the bullying and humiliation he or she experienced, then he is a tormentor and is carrying on the vicious tradition, remorse or guilt notwithstanding. His victims are probably not aware of how deeply he is caring for them as he abuses them.
Winlia, if the girl had been in my district, she would have had an advocate in our principal. Such behavior by any teacher is not tolerated by our principal, superintendent, or school board. I've seen more than one teacher receive walking papers for such behavior. I don't care what life throws at us; school should not be a place of abuse, either here or in Potterville.
I will admit that some things in the books are exaggerated for effect. Others are not. It sounds to me like the real-life teacher of your friend's daughter employed the Snape method. I wonder why nothing was ever done, because such people usually have more than one victim over the years.
As for Harry not surviving the Dursleys emotionally, that is not necessarily true. I taught a lovely 7th grade student at my previous school. She was a top student and seemed fairly well adjusted. At the end of the year, when I left for my new school, I had no inkling anything was wrong. Six months into the next year, the girl appeared at my new school; she'd been removed from her home and placed in foster care (I'm sure you can guess why). Even with repeated threats and harassment from her dad's brothers, a trial looming over her, fear for her younger sisters, and continual disruptions at school, she managed to remain steady and calm. She kept her grades up, braved the trial, and went on to graduate from high school and college. She is still a lovely person.
I could cite other examples of kids who endured horrid treatment yet turned out great. I could also cite examples of kids who have been raised in caring homes, yet they commit violent crimes. The human psyche is interesting. Who knows which kids will crack under verbal abuse and which will not be fazed by it? Who will forget it and move on, and who will inflict the destructive cycle on another generation?
BTW ... I have no idea why people like Snape. Perhaps Rowling is like me.
Solitaire
edited
wynnleaf - Jun 3, 2006 10:53 pm (#2314 of 2969)
Edited Jun 3, 2006 11:55 pm
I respectfully disagree. A person may very well understand what it is to be bullied and humiliated. However, if he continues to practice the bullying and humiliation he or she experienced, then he is a tormentor and is carrying on the vicious tradition, remorse or guilt notwithstanding. His victims are probably not aware of how deeply he is caring for them as he abuses them.
Solitaire, you clearly misunderstood my comment, as I was trying to say more or less what you did above. In your first comment (which I earlier quoted) it seemed to me you made a distinction -- either a person grew in compassion, etc. or a person became a tormentor, etc. What I was trying to say is that it is very often a combination, which is why one often sees adults who grew up in abusive homes become abusive parents even though they love their children and hate their own abusive actions. These people need a lot of counseling -- not because they hate their children and wish to torment them, but because they don't know how to stop the cycle of abuse. They don't know how to deal with their children in healthy ways, only in abusive ones. And you are correct that the kids being abused cannot necessarily see the love the adult has for them through the abuse.
winlia,
Thanks for you reminder. I completely agree and have commented before, in other discussions, about how we deal with this as readers. For instance, poor Montague apparently sustains long term damage from the "prank" that Fred and George play on him, yet the twins get absolutely no sensure and we the readers are presented with the incident as though somehow the kid deserved this for being on the Inquisitorial Squad.
I think JKR is being disingenuous when she says that she doesn't understand why her readers like Snape or find him attractive.
I agree. We are regularly reminded by readers of JKR's supposed dislike of Snape, and almost never reminded of the following quotes:
Interviewer: Who is your favourite character in the books?
Rowling: I have loads of favourite characters. I really like Harry, Ron, Hermione, Hagrid and Dumbledore. I love writing Snape - even though he is not always the nicest person, he is really fun to write.
and
Question from the public: Also, will we see more of Snape?
Rowling: You always see a lot of Snape, because he is a gift of a character. I hesitate to say that I love him. [Audience member: I do] You do? This is a very worrying thing. Are you thinking about Alan Rickman or about Snape? [Laughter]
"I hesitate to say I love him" "I love writing Snape" and "a gift of a character" doesn't exactly sound like she dislikes him, does it?
Saracene - Jun 3, 2006 11:40 pm (#2315 of 2969)
Edited Jun 4, 2006 12:49 am
Well, I don't think it's mutually exclusive for JKR to enjoy writing Snape and call him "a gift of a character" and not like him one bit as a person. When she's talking about her favourite characters, she says that she -likes- Harry, Ron, etc., but that she loves -writing- Snape. Saying that you like a character is not the same as saying that you enjoy writing a character. I don't doubt that Snape is tremendous fun to write, he after all has some of the best lines in the series and he brings great tension and drama to every scene he appears in. But JKR also referred to him as "sadistic" and a "deeply horrible person".
I also got an impression from the interviews that JKR feels very strongly about female readers romanticising or airbrushing the characters who are really quite awful, cruel people.
Catherine - Jun 4, 2006 6:01 am (#2316 of 2969)
I also got an impression from the interviews that JKR feels very strongly about female readers romanticising or airbrushing the characters who are really quite awful, cruel people.
I agree with this.
I don't see Snape as a particularly remorseful character, especially as his "teaching persona" is concerned. One of the themes of the series is "choices," and I think that Snape chooses to be nasty.
I also think it is not quite honest to suggest that he hasn't inflicted damage upon his students.
I also happen to believe Sirius when he said that Snape knew so much about the Dark Arts as an entering student. Sirius and James were among the cleverest students at Hogwarts, and I think that, given what we've seen of their egos and confidence, this assessment may be true. Lupin respected Snape's ability as an Occlumens--are we to discount this just because Lupin was not friendly with Snape in school?
Tom Riddle was already on his way down a Dark path when he entered Hogwarts--and he didn't even live in a wizarding household. I think Snape could have learned plenty on his own, even without having a witch for a mother and his Prince relatives on her side.
Torill - Jun 4, 2006 6:23 am (#2317 of 2969)
Hmm - this is such an interesting discussion, and there is so much to comment on here now, that I don't really know where to begin... I will probably have to write more posts than one here...
Ok, first - whether Harry, Neville, Hermione and the rest will come away unhurt from Snape's bullying or not, is really not relevant in discussing what this bullying behaviour tells us about Snape's character. Or in judging those actions. Snape has no way of knowing that his cruelty will not cause the children any harm, so this is no excuse for him at all. This said, I will maintain that Snape is a major inhibiting force in Neville's life, one who contributes substantially to his lack of self esteem, and if Neville does now appear to be slowly outgrowing this, it is no thanks to Snape.. (Besides, recent research hints that bein bullied by a teacher is probably worse for a child than being bullied by his peers - but this is a different discussion..)
It is true that victims of abuse may sometimes themselves turn out to be abusive - but this is mostly about people who were abused by their parents as children. There is no evidence that suggests how someone who was bullied by his peers at school should bully his students as a teacher, though, and in situations that are far from similar to the ones where he himself was the victim to boot. But this is what we see Snape do. Neville is not a problem in his class, he is never one to make nasty remarks to Snape, be arrogant or abusive or anything that should remind Snape of earlier bullies. All he does is being clumsy - and there is no reason what so ever why this should trigger any of Snape's old schoolday traumas. On the contrary, Snape was a bright kid in potions class, and was probably never bullied by Slughorn in any way. From what we have learned about Slughorn it was probably the other way around, he is seen in HBP to be unfairly partial towards bright kids. So I can't excuse Snape's bullying of Neville as a result of his own traumatic experiences. It just doesn't show that pattern.
And where is the evidence in canon that Snape in any way regrets this behaviour, wishes he could stop it, but is unable to contain himself? No evidence at all I would say. It seems like Snape is perfectly snug and pleased with himself here; he seems to think his nasty behaviour towards the Gryffindors and his ridiculous favouring of he Slytherins are all perfectly justified.
In abusive parents who love their children but can't break the circle of abuse they are conditioned from their own upbringing to repeat, you will as a rule see plenty of clear evidence that they love their children, plenty of situations when they do try their best to be good and caring, even if they be somewhat helpless in their way of doing this. This behaviour may occur just as often as the abusive one, which is typically triggered by stress, or by situations similar to the ones when they themselves experienced abuse. (In fact, this contradictive and seemingly unpredictable behaviour may be just as hurtful to the child as the abuse itself.) But you see no such contradictions in Snape's behaviour. He is very predictably abusive to his victims, all around, and not just in situations similar to his experiences with the marauders.. .
As for not being willing to admit that Snape's actions in the war on Voldemort can be heroic because he is a child abuser, well I wouldn't be among the ones saying that. In fact, if Snape is firmly on the dark side all the way through book seven, I will be somewhat disappointed, since I actually find it very interesting how Rowling seems to be willing to let a cruel and sadistic person turn out to be on the right side in the war. This is such a a good way of getting across the principle of how you cannot sort everyone nicely into two categories: good people and Death Eaters.
But what I am not willing to do, is to go all the way in the opposite direction, as some Snape fans tend to do: say that because Snape seems to be brave in some situations, the fact that he is also cruel and sadistic - not only in his youth, but today - must be forgiven, overlooked or explained away. I think Snape should only be forgiven for his child abuse if he shows that he regrets it and is at least struggling to overcome it. So far, I have seen absolutely no evidence to this, on the contrary, so yes, I do loath Snape as a character. And I will still do that even if he turns out to be a Great War Hero - because that is just not the same as being a good person.
This post is probably getting too long already to further discuss why I believe Sirius' report of Snape's early investment in the Dark Arts to be at least fairly accurate, and not just a projection or defence. I will have to come back to that, then. Just note here that the most important of my arguments is probably that Sirius is discussing this in situations where he is NOT defending or justifying his own behaviour towards Snape. Lupin does that, but Sirius does not.
But before I close, I have to point out: Snape's mother may very well have been deep into the Dark Arts, even though she has a child by a Muggle. I can't see how that is an argument against how Snape may have learned about the Dark Arts from her. There is no reason to believe that fascination for the Dark Arts should only be limited to those who also believe in the "Pure Blood" ideology, and is willing to use these methods to achieve "ethnical cleansing". We are talking about two different subjects here. The Sirius quote about how the world cannot be divided in good people and Death Eaters will apply here as well. In the Potterverse, you will probably find both people who believe in the "Pure Blood" cause but will never touch the Dark Arts, and people who will accept mixed blood marriages but still be cruel enough to want to use Dark Arts methods to achieve their ends. Sadists may be found among the followers of more than one ideology, I would think.
winlia - Jun 4, 2006 8:12 am (#2318 of 2969)
Edited Jun 4, 2006 9:14 am
Ok, first - whether Harry, Neville, Hermione and the rest will come away unhurt from Snape's bullying or not, is really not relevant in discussing what this bullying behaviour tells us about Snape's character. Or in judging those actions. Snape has no way of knowing that his cruelty will not cause the children any harm, so this is no excuse for him at all. ---Torill
I agree. Snape has a mean streak, and he intends to do harm. I just don't think that the effects of his verbal abuse are meant to be a focus of these books. We're shown Spinner's End and the Worst Memory to engender in us some sympathy for Snape and to help us understand where his bitterness is coming from. We're supposed to admire Harry and the others for overcoming the adversity with which they are faced. I don't think, though, that we are meant to worry about what Snape is doing to Neville in the same way that we are meant to consider what the Mauraders may have done to Snape. I think JKR may be trying to make the point that not all personable people are kind, and not all crabby people are truly mean. (I always beat that one to death in my Stranger Danger talks with my extremely outgoing son.)
There's an interesting non-fiction book out there called Blink that talks about, among other things, how quickly people make judgments about others based solely on appearances and mannerisms. Those of you in the teaching profession may enjoy it.
Solitare, my father was a wonderful man, and he came from a physically and verbally abusive home. His upbringing wasn't his only exposure to violence--he was in the infantry of Patton's Third Army. I don't know what his stand was on flies, but when he would find a spider, he'd take it outside and set it free.
Mediwitch - Jun 4, 2006 8:49 am (#2319 of 2969)
Edited Jun 4, 2006 9:50 am
Wynnleaf #2309 While I agree that he says some appallingly insulting things sometimes, we have yet to be shown in canon how any of the students have been injured by Snape -- in the long run.
I would have to respectfully disagree with this point. Snape has consistently been cruel and harsh toward Harry (not that I think Harry is perfect, but that's another thread); when he was assigned to tutor Harry in Occlumency, it seemed quite clear (in canon) that Harry was resistant to learning Occlumency because it was Snape teaching him. This in turn led to Harry being fooled by Voldemort planting the false vision of Sirius being tortured, which led to the MoM battle and Sirius's death. And canon is very clear that this has indeed hurt Harry.
(Yes, I think that if Dumbledore had explained why occlumency was necessary, it might have mitigated Harry's response to Snape's instruction, and I know JKR has said Harry would not be a good occlumens, but I think the point still stands that Harry would have tried harder if the teacher wasn't someone who had bullied him since day 1.)
Hollywand - Jun 4, 2006 9:47 am (#2320 of 2969)
Edited Jun 4, 2006 10:53 am
Wow, what a great discussion!
I would submit that "Snape's Worst Memory" is not really about how Snape feels about the Marauders. The memory demonstrates James' ability to turn an attacker's weapon back upon the perpetrator. This is why it is Snape's worst fear: he "invents" the Levicorpus and Sectumsempra, and James uses the spells against him during the Pensieve scene. Rowling's larger message, which I think will be fully developed in book seven, it that when a person invents a dangerous weapon, it can always be used against them. Hermione points out that the Levicorpus is used against Muggles by Death Eaters during the Triwizard Tournament; the implication here is that Voldemort once mined Severus for useful weapons, and Severus didn't seem to care for that very much, I suspect.
Harry has inherited an instinctual ability to defend himself. We see this ability demonstrated many times from his humiliation of Lucius Malfoy and Dobby's sock, to casting the Patronus, to slaying the Basilisk. I think Severus in strategic enough to recognize Harry's natural instinct, even if Harry doesn't quite realize he has his father's talent for self-defense.
I teach in the Arts, in Painting and Drawing, a practice that takes years to master. I think I can draw a parallel with learning Potions as an analogy. I don't have much respect for my fellow teachers who encounter a bunch of novices who deseprately want to learn to express themselves, and humiliate their pupils because they don't immediately show proficiency with making art. To me, that's equivalent to a fully grown adult taking advantage of those who are much less mature, physically smaller and relatively inexperienced. I have heard teachers say, "That's so bad (the image) you shouldn't even put that up for critique. Take it down." I fail to see what useful lesson a student could get from that experience to advance their creativity. The teacher is a coward and a bully. During one of my introductory classes, I make a point to show the early works of Matisse and Van Gogh, and everyone has a good laugh at how awkward their early work was; it gives those who are inexperienced courage. My mantra to my students: I never met anyone who was humiliated so much they became a great artist. It's bizarre to me that others think humiliation is beneficial. As Rowling says, you may need to sort out your priorities.
Dumbledore has shown Severus significant compassion by taking him under his wing and allowing him within the Hogwarts community. It would be to his own benefit not to be so nasty; in fact, to present such a nasty demeanor to the world and expect others to struggle to understand him and not think badly of him is solipsistic.
Solitaire - Jun 4, 2006 9:49 am (#2321 of 2969)
Wynnleaf, I don't think I did misunderstand you. I just disagree after a certain point. I believe that if an abuse victim (of either gender) has become an abuser--and he sees this and truly loves his spouse and children--he WILL seek help for the problem. If he chooses not to get help--and remember how important the theme of choice is in these novels--then IMO he does not love the spouse and children as much as he says he does.
Perhaps this is an area where I have a blind spot. Two friends of mine nearly died from such "love." In one case, the abuser did not want to jeopardize his job and reputation in order to get help. In the other case, the abuser always said, "Now, look what you made me do." He saw the abuse not as his problem but as the fault of the victim--who made him do it. He didn't need any help.
I also got an impression from the interviews that JKR feels very strongly about female readers romanticising or airbrushing the characters who are really quite awful, cruel people.
I couldn't agree more. I think she is aware that many women are attracted to "bad boy" types, often resulting in their own destruction.
Winlia: Solitare, my father was a wonderful man, and he came from a physically and verbally abusive home. His upbringing wasn't his only exposure to violence--he was in the infantry of Patton's Third Army. I don't know what his stand was on flies, but when he would find a spider, he'd take it outside and set it free.
Your dad sounds like a man who did not feel his childhood had to define him. He clearly made his own choices and became the man he wanted to be. There is a point in our lives when we all must take responsibility for our own actions. We can choose to be compassionate or cruel. Snape has clearly experienced enough mercy and clemency as an adult to know that there is another way besides cruelty. When Snape behaves cruelly toward a student, it is because he has chosen to inflict pain on that student. He wants that person to hurt. He is such a brilliant Wizard that I find it difficult to explain his actions in any other way.
Catherine and Mediwitch, I agree with all points each of you made in posts #2316 and #2319. I won't repeat them here.
Solitaire
Fawkes Egg - Jun 4, 2006 10:00 am (#2322 of 2969)
Wow, this discussion sure moves fast!
Wynnleaf - excellent points in response to my post above.
Solitaire, you make an excellent point: Harry and Snape appear to have had similarly deprived childhoods - but theyhave chosen to react differently. This may or may not be a conscious choice, but it's a dichotomy that is almost universal.
I know two sisters, both raised by alcoholic, abusive parents. One sister has sadly followed in her parents' footsteps. The other refuses to touch alcohol herself, but has worked hard to provide a loving, supportive environment for her own children, making sure too that they understand that alcohol should be used responsibly - and they seem to have gotten the message.
It seems though, that choosing the compassionate route requires more work than sliding into the same patterns of cruel behaviour that a person may have suffered as a child. Harry actively struggles with the fact that he needs to stand alone against Voldemort, in order to protect those he cares for. But for Snape, sarcasm and cruelty to children in his care are probably all too easy.
Die Zimtzicke - Jun 4, 2006 2:27 pm (#2323 of 2969)
Snape TALKS cruelly, but when has he ever actually hurt one of the kids? He has even done things to protect them. He couldn't ever talk nicely to Gryffindors. His own Slytherin students would likely have reported back to their parents if he was overly kind to the other side. Instead they have been gleefully (I'll bet!) been reporting every nasty remark, giving Snape credibility.
From the time he was trying to save Harry from falling off his broom, to the night he searched the forest for the kids, when did he actually do anything that really hurt them? The advice he gave Harry when he fled Hogwarts was even good advice.
Someone who is verbally abusive because he almost has to be is not in the same league with someone who is actively trying to kill you, which is how I think a lot of people see Snape. Is he a good person? No, probably not. Is he redeeamable? Possibly. Is he totally evil? Not as I see it.
He's a gray character, which is a good thing. Not everyone can be dark or light-. Why should anyone expect or want all the characters to be dark or light?
Torill - Jun 4, 2006 3:20 pm (#2324 of 2969)
I would like to go back to the discussion of whether Snape really was deep into the Dark Arts already when he started school.
The evidence that convinces me about Snape's early investments in the Dark Arts comes from Sirius, not so much from Lupin, and indirectly from DD – there must be a reason why DD thought it would bring out the worst in Snape to let him teach Defense Against the Dark Arts…
The question is of course whether Sirius can be trusted when it comes to information about Snape. I confess to be absolutely convinced that Sirius would not tell a conscious lie about anyone, not even Snape. Jo says in the interview with Emerson and Melissa that Sirius, regardless of his flaws, has a deep sense of honour, and I think this is how he comes across in the series as well. You should definitely not come on the wrong side of his anger; but he is the kind who would attack his enemy directly up front, not by telling lies about him behind his back. I can't see Sirius painting someone as worse than he knows them to be, just to make himself appear better.
So to dismiss what he says about Snape’s early investment in the Dark Arts as evidence, one will have to make a case of how Sirius may be honestly convinced about how Snape was invested in the Dark Arts at eleven, but somehow be misinformed or slightly delusional about it.
I will try and counter some of the arguments presented so far in this discussion as follows (forgive me for paraphrasing and not quoting the arguments - I have done my best not to misrepresent, if I have, I apologise and allow you to hit me with a bogeybat hex)
Sirius would not be capable of recognizing someone being into the Dark Arts at such an early age as eleven. I think he would. He grew up in a family so invested in the Dark Arts that his mother had a horrible instrument, designed to run up your body and pierce your throat, at display in pride of place among other equally horrible things in her drawing room - not just hidden away in a drawer somewhere to be used against possible intruders. Sirius did in fact have all the reasons to be just as invested in the Dark Arts at the age of 11 as Snape ever was. Given a mother like that, I hold it to be highly likely that she had tried to influence him in that direction at an early age. Sirius must have been able to develop a very strong opposition against this at an early age. (I am not sure I would like to think about what this may have costed him in punishments and abuse, thinking about the character we see painted in that portrait in the hall at 12GP...) So yes, I think eleven year old Sirius would have spotted someone with a deep fascination for the Dark Arts right away.
Sirius was only projecting the interest in the Dark Arts he saw in his home onto Snape, so as to defend his bullying in retrospect. Consider the situation in the cave in GF, where Sirius first tells HRH about Snape and the Dark Arts. (p.460-461, UK paperback ed.) Bearing in mind that it was then less than a year since Snape had almost succeded in handing Sirius over to the Dementor's Kiss (and I believe Snape knew Sirius was innocent at that point, but this is another discussion,) it is not difficult to understand how the hatred towards him was still very strong in Sirius. If he had been subjected to projecting in regards to Snape as an adult, he would have definitely given in to all the projections he might have had about Snape at this point, and declared him to be the sure candidate for the traitor at Hogwarts. Both Harry and Ron gave him this assumption on a silver plate. This would have been far more acutely tempting for him than exaggerating about Snape's childhood interest in the Dark Arts. But he doesn't do this, he doesn't even use same childhood interest to argue that Snape must be a traitor. This is the first time Sirius gives the information about Snape and the Dark Arts, it happens long before Harry has even seen the incident in the pensieve. The information is also given in the exact same monologue where Sirius goes very far in almost declaring Snape's innocence, as he cannot see that the evidence against him are strong enough. When all this is taken together, I think it is a bit unfair to declare this information to be the result of unfair projections.
Also - isn't it a bit unfair to assume that James and Sirius would be perfectly willing to attack and bully someone in the way we see them do it in the pensieve, for no other reason than being able to? And just dismiss the explanation given by one of the parties as a projective defense, something he had to unconsciously lie about in retrospect to make himself feel better? We actually do not have any evidence whatsoever that James and Sirius were the general school yard bullies, ready to gang up against anyone who appeared weak and unpopular. Both Sirius and Lupin admits to the fact that they were arrogant and a pair of show offs at this point in their development - Sirius goes as far as calling them arrogant berks and idiots in OP, and indicates that James needed to have his head deflated - but this is not the same as a readyness to downright bully anybody without a cause. Lilly yells at James that he hexes anyone in the corridors "just because he can" - but there's a difference between hexing and cursing. Lilly may well have been hinting to nothing worse than a possible showing off of the Levicorpus and the like in the corridors. This would not be quite the same as mean bullying. But because we have just been shown how mean he could be to Snape when Lilly says this, many fans have taken her words to mean that James also could be - and often were – equally mean to anybody. But we actually have no evidence for this.
The marauders had a lot more cases of detention in Filch’s files than Snape, this may mean that they were often in trouble for bullying others, while Snape maybe didn’t do such things. Actually – Harry doesn’t get to go through all of Filch’s files, only the boxes Snape gives him. It is clear from his remarks that Snape knows exactly what Harry will find in there (p. 497, HBP, UK hardback) – and of course he wouldn’t hand over to Harry very many boxes with his own name in them, if there were any…
The nickname ”Snivellus” indicates that Snape was a bit weak and maybe crying a lot, and this may mean that he wasn’t capable of being deeply invested in the Dark Arts I would say that the exaqct opposite may be just as likely – the Dark Arts could appear tempting to someone who felt too weak to be able to stand up to his enemies the regular way. I can’t see how strength and the Dark Arts need to be necessarily connected. Besides – I wouldn’t be very ready to take the nickname given to someone by the ones who use it to bully him, to be an accurate description of his character traits in any way. ”Snivellus” is similar enough to ”Severus” to be adapted by bullies in order to mock someone for being a crybaby, without this having to be true at all. Teenage boys have been known to put each other down with nasty characerisations of the other one’s mother, and hints about sexual orientation – but none of this should be taken as evidence to the actual facts in any of these matters….
Torill - Jun 4, 2006 3:47 pm (#2325 of 2969)
Edited Jun 4, 2006 4:50 pm
Sorry for the double posting - but I think my former post is too long to edit anymore into it..
I want to apologise for accidentily deleting my latest post save the one above. I wanted to delete an earlier version of that one, because it was far too long, and then I hit the delete button of an earlier post first by mistake. I am sorry if anyone has read that and wants to reply to it, but now cannot find it. I can see how that is annoying, and assure you I will be more careful next time!
As I know have the floor anyway, I will take the opportunity of answering Die Zimtzicke who posted while I was writing the above. I don't agree that Snape is not hurting the kids with his verbal abuse. It is not only physical harm that may hurt somebody.
And no, I don't think that Snape is only abusive to keep his cover in front of the Death Eaters children. While Voldemort was Vapourmort, all the Death Eaters who managed to stay out of Azkaban were able to do so only because they pretended to have been under the Imperius curse. They made a point of being firmly behind DD and the ministry, happy because of how Harry had defeated Voldemort and in every way against the Dark side. You can read in CS about how Lucius instructs his son about this, about how it would not be prudent of him to be abusive to Harry at school. The Death Eaters will not expect Snape to act any differently than they all do, and Snape is smart enough to know this.
Catherine - Jun 4, 2006 6:30 pm (#2326 of 2969)
Snape TALKS cruelly, but when has he ever actually hurt one of the kids?
This question begs a reply.
He physically grabbed and threw Harry after the Pensieve "Pants" episode. This is an example of physical hurt, which does not even BEGIN to answer the question of psychological damage done other times, other places.
I teach, AND I'm a parent, AND I cannot imagine a scenario in which I would condone/allow/turn a blind eye/think was nifty/ think that students are horrible so that they deserve such treatment... in which Snape practices as we see him do toward Harry, Hermione, Neville, etc. Also, I think his favoritism could be construed as "damage" toward the Slytherins, if the argument came down to that.
So Snape got caught with his pants down?? Horrid. Embarrassing. Not nearly the motive to treat Neville and Hermione so awfully.
I still wonder if Snape depanted anyone during his tenure. He's not...erm..."lily pure" if you know what I mean.
wynnleaf - Jun 4, 2006 7:37 pm (#2327 of 2969)
Edited Jun 4, 2006 8:40 pm
"Snape knew more curses when he arrived at school than half the kids in seventh year," Sirius
This is pure hyperbole. When Sirius was a 1st year, he'd have no clue what curses the 7th years knew. Further, we've all seen the extent to which Harry really knows what goes on in other houses -- that is to say, not really very much. Sirius would only really know about Snape's knowledge of curses from when he'd seen him in some kind of altercation. Further, "knowing more curses," is not the same as "knowing more Dark Arts." In the Wizarding World of HP, "curse" is not synonymous with "Dark Arts." Curses include the impediment, reductor and body bind. Those certainly are not Dark magic.
"he was part of a gang of Slytherins who nearly all turned out to be Death Eaters." Sirius goes on to mention the Lestranges, Avery and Wilkes as part of the gang.
While this may certainly be true -- that Snape was part of a gang -- we see no evidence of a single friend defending him, or even being concerned about what was going on, in the "worst memory" scene (unless, of course, Lily was a friend). Yet we see Slytherins sticking up for each other in Harry's time. Was Snape really a close part of a Slytherin gang? Lucius, the only DE we see as a probable sometime friend of Snapes, is about 6 years older. The Lestranges, who Sirius mentions as part of this gang Snape was in, were about the age of Lucius (Black family tree) and would have been gone from Hogwarts by the time Snape was in 2nd or possibly 3rd year. I doubt if 7th year Lestranges would have had much to do with 1st or 2nd year Snape. So Sirius is again likely exaggerating some.
Next, it's interesting that you afford Sirius the assumption that he would not only not lie about this, but wouldn't exaggerate, and would give his comments about this fair treatment. However, when discussing Snape's giving Harry detention working on Filch's files you say "of course he wouldn’t hand over to Harry very many boxes with his own name in them, if there were any…" Why not? That's basically saying that we can expect honorable consideration from Sirius regarding Snape's activities, but not from Snape regarding his own activities.
Torill said Also - isn't it a bit unfair to assume that James and Sirius would be perfectly willing to attack and bully someone in the way we see them do it in the pensieve, for no other reason than being able to?
I don't assume it. That's exactly what James said. Lily said, "What's he done to you?" "Well," said James, appearing to deliberate the point, "it's more the fact that he exists if you know what I mean."
Where were those lofty protestations from James about the Dark magic Snape is involved in? No, "it's more the fact that he exists ."
Snape obviously hates Sirius and James with a passion. But Sirius hates him right back. I see absolutely no reason to think that Sirius doesn't have prejudicial views on Snape. Even as an adult, he said that Snape deserved the trick Sirius played that almost got Snape attacked by a werewolf. And why did he say Snape deserved it? Because Snape was following them around. For this, adult Sirius still thought he deserved that prank? Sorry, I just don't think we can expect Sirius to give fair unbiased information on Snape.
By the way, I wouldn't expect we'd get any more fair information about Sirius from Snape either. I certainly don't believe Snape's view that Sirius wanted to be seen in dog form so he'd be forced to hide away at Grimmauld Place. Snape hated Sirius and his remarks about him must be regarded as prejudiced. Same goes for Sirius.
The Artful Dodger - Jun 5, 2006 6:37 am (#2328 of 2969)
Edited Jun 5, 2006 8:04 am
Snape TALKS cruelly, but when has he ever actually hurt one of the kids? -- Die Zimtzicke
Neville's boggart turning into Snape or Hermione hurrying off to the hospital wing in tears seem good evidence that Snape does hurt his students.
He couldn't ever talk nicely to Gryffindors. His own Slytherin students would likely have reported back to their parents if he was overly kind to the other side. -- Die Zimtzicke
Are you suggesting that this might cause the loss of his position in Voldemort's inner circle? If so, then keep in mind that for his role as a double-agent, Snape needs Dumbledore's trust, and Voldemort might consider treating the Gryffindors friendly as a necessary means to get it. That seems plausible, given that Voldemort was (is) a talented actor himself and made good use of that ability at Hogwarts. In fact, it seems so plausible that I cannot understand why Snape's behaviour never made Dumbledore question his loyalty.
Where were those lofty protestations from James about the Dark magic Snape is involved in? No, "it's more the fact that he exists ." -- wynnleaf
James may have hexed Snape for the fact that he exists because loving the Dark Arts is part of his existence.
It seems Snape-fans tend to overlook pretty simple solutions against their cause (to keep it fair, you often see the same thing with Snape-haters, of course).
Catherine - Jun 5, 2006 7:00 am (#2329 of 2969)
Edited Jun 5, 2006 8:13 am
This is pure hyperbole. When Sirius was a 1st year, he'd have no clue what curses the 7th years knew.--Wynnleaf
I'm not sure why you say this.
Sirius is speaking from a perspective of many years. We don't see Sirius saying, as a first year, "Snape knows as many curses as a 7th year." We see a man who was himself one of the most talented students at Hogwarts in his day, who is a member of the Order of the Phoenix, reflecting back on his experience and making that qualification. We don't know exactly when Sirius reached this conclusion, but he says this about Snape at a time when Sirius has certainly got more than clue about what curses 7th years (and Death Eaters) use.
James may have hexed Snape for the fact that he exists because loving the Dark Arts is part of his existence. --Artful Dodger
James's friends make the point of telling Harry that James hated the Dark Arts. We also know that Snape took every opportunity to curse James. I think JKR included that information because she does not want us to think that Snape is without responsibility or blame in the matter. I don't think she included that information so that we could say, "Sirius and Lupin are prejudiced against Snape."
wynnleaf - Jun 5, 2006 7:16 am (#2330 of 2969)
James may have hexed Snape for the fact that he exists because loving the Dark Arts is part of his existence.
Nice solution. Unfortunately, we can only go by what James actually said.
As regards whether or not Snape has actually hurt any of the students... When I mentioned this originally, I meant that we are given no evidence in the books that any of the children has sustained any lasting harm from any of Snape's nasty comments. Now it's perfectly easy to assert that they have sustained lasting harm -- all you have to do is say "naturally those kind of nasty remarks harm children, therefore they must have sustained lasting harm." But regardless what our personal opinions may be of how much those kinds of remarks harm children, there are still no references to evidence that shows that anyone, including Neville, sustained lasting damage from Snape's remarks.
Torill mentioned that Snapes method in teaching Harry occlumency produced lasting harm, because Harry didn't succeed at learning occlumency. But JKR said that Harry wasn't really cut out for occlumency and therefore wouldn't have learned it anyway. And certainly, Harry didn't practice at all. That doesn't make Snape's occlumency teaching method in any way all right. But Harry did not sustain lasting harm from it.
I don't think there's a single reader that would suggest that Snape's remarks don't hurt children's feelings, or that Neville isn't scared of Snape. But regardless what any of us may think about whether or not Snape's kind of sarcastic, insulting remarks will cause lasting harm, the fact is that JKR does not have any of the kids sustaining lasting harm. She really indicates nothing more than hurt feelings, anger, and Neville's fear of Snape. Neville, if everyone recalls, was already highly uncertain of his magical abilities due to the sustained attitude of his grandmother, who seemed to treat him like a near-squib and a bit of an embarrassment to the family. Granted, Snape's attitude toward Neville doesn't help any, but you can't get around the fact that Neville's self-confidence seems to greatly improve over the books, which shows that regardless of what Snape has said and done to him, it didn't hold Neville back. That's to Neville's credit, not Snape's. But JKR does not write Neville has having been truly damaged by Snape's behavior.
I don't think Snape's sarcasm, insults, etc. are an act. There may be a bit of it that's acting -- perhaps the larger amount of points taken from other houses than Slytherin. But I tend to think it's Snape's true attitudes coming out. But that doesn't translate -- in the books at least -- into long term damage to students.
Remember what I keep saying about how easy it is to excuse bad behavior from people that act nice, compared to people who act nasty? Fred and George did do long term damage to Montague, but I have yet to read any fan who thinks less of Fred and George due to their actions. JKR wrote them as fun people and we, the readers, are meant to like them. So regardless what they do to others, even if it results in true long term damage, we don't hold it against them.
Edited Jun 3, 2006 9:29 pm
People who have been abused by others seem to react in one of two ways: 1) They are compassionate to others, because they understand how it feels to be bullied and humiliated; or 2) they become tormentors of others, carrying on the vicious tradition
It is not an "either/or" proposition. Far more common is someone who does care deeply for others, and who does understand what it's like to be bullied and humiliated. However, the person continues to fall back on the practices he or she learned in their youth, often to their own guilt and dismay.
winlia - Jun 3, 2006 9:39 pm (#2312 of 2969)
Edited Jun 3, 2006 10:47 pm
Hollywand, Solitare, and wynnleaf
People in these books don't react the way they would in real life. Harry would never have survived the Dursleys, at least not emotionally. Nor could he deal with the psycological pressure of the impending final showdown with LV--it would be like making an adolescent responsible for an assassination attempt on Attila the Hun. Many things are exaggerated. I don't think it is valid to compare Snape's classroom style with what would be expected or tolerated from a real teacher. Snape's insults are meant to show us that he has a mean streak. Lots of people do, and kids have to learn to deal with them. A few years back, the daughter of a coworker of mine was being picked on by one of her middle school teachers. The girl didn't enjoy school, never had, was a poor to mediocre student, and her lack of scholastic aptitude and ambition annoyed the teacher. Apparently, he much preferred teaching brighter students. It was clearly unfair, but my coworker didn't intervene on the theory that it would prepare her daughter for the day when she had an unfair boss, which happens to many of us. She told her daughter that the teacher was being unfair, and helped her daughter think of strategies to cope with the situation, but she never contacted the school. I'm not sure that my coworker was wrong.
edit: PS I think JKR is being disingenuous when she says that she doesn't understand why her readers like Snape or find him attractive.
Solitaire - Jun 3, 2006 10:14 pm (#2313 of 2969)
Edited Jun 3, 2006 11:23 pm
Wynnleaf: It is not an "either/or" proposition. Far more common is someone who does care deeply for others, and who does understand what it's like to be bullied and humiliated. However, the person continues to fall back on the practices he or she learned in their youth, often to their own guilt and dismay.
I respectfully disagree. A person may very well understand what it is to be bullied and humiliated. However, if he continues to practice the bullying and humiliation he or she experienced, then he is a tormentor and is carrying on the vicious tradition, remorse or guilt notwithstanding. His victims are probably not aware of how deeply he is caring for them as he abuses them.
Winlia, if the girl had been in my district, she would have had an advocate in our principal. Such behavior by any teacher is not tolerated by our principal, superintendent, or school board. I've seen more than one teacher receive walking papers for such behavior. I don't care what life throws at us; school should not be a place of abuse, either here or in Potterville.
I will admit that some things in the books are exaggerated for effect. Others are not. It sounds to me like the real-life teacher of your friend's daughter employed the Snape method. I wonder why nothing was ever done, because such people usually have more than one victim over the years.
As for Harry not surviving the Dursleys emotionally, that is not necessarily true. I taught a lovely 7th grade student at my previous school. She was a top student and seemed fairly well adjusted. At the end of the year, when I left for my new school, I had no inkling anything was wrong. Six months into the next year, the girl appeared at my new school; she'd been removed from her home and placed in foster care (I'm sure you can guess why). Even with repeated threats and harassment from her dad's brothers, a trial looming over her, fear for her younger sisters, and continual disruptions at school, she managed to remain steady and calm. She kept her grades up, braved the trial, and went on to graduate from high school and college. She is still a lovely person.
I could cite other examples of kids who endured horrid treatment yet turned out great. I could also cite examples of kids who have been raised in caring homes, yet they commit violent crimes. The human psyche is interesting. Who knows which kids will crack under verbal abuse and which will not be fazed by it? Who will forget it and move on, and who will inflict the destructive cycle on another generation?
BTW ... I have no idea why people like Snape. Perhaps Rowling is like me.
Solitaire
edited
wynnleaf - Jun 3, 2006 10:53 pm (#2314 of 2969)
Edited Jun 3, 2006 11:55 pm
I respectfully disagree. A person may very well understand what it is to be bullied and humiliated. However, if he continues to practice the bullying and humiliation he or she experienced, then he is a tormentor and is carrying on the vicious tradition, remorse or guilt notwithstanding. His victims are probably not aware of how deeply he is caring for them as he abuses them.
Solitaire, you clearly misunderstood my comment, as I was trying to say more or less what you did above. In your first comment (which I earlier quoted) it seemed to me you made a distinction -- either a person grew in compassion, etc. or a person became a tormentor, etc. What I was trying to say is that it is very often a combination, which is why one often sees adults who grew up in abusive homes become abusive parents even though they love their children and hate their own abusive actions. These people need a lot of counseling -- not because they hate their children and wish to torment them, but because they don't know how to stop the cycle of abuse. They don't know how to deal with their children in healthy ways, only in abusive ones. And you are correct that the kids being abused cannot necessarily see the love the adult has for them through the abuse.
winlia,
Thanks for you reminder. I completely agree and have commented before, in other discussions, about how we deal with this as readers. For instance, poor Montague apparently sustains long term damage from the "prank" that Fred and George play on him, yet the twins get absolutely no sensure and we the readers are presented with the incident as though somehow the kid deserved this for being on the Inquisitorial Squad.
I think JKR is being disingenuous when she says that she doesn't understand why her readers like Snape or find him attractive.
I agree. We are regularly reminded by readers of JKR's supposed dislike of Snape, and almost never reminded of the following quotes:
Interviewer: Who is your favourite character in the books?
Rowling: I have loads of favourite characters. I really like Harry, Ron, Hermione, Hagrid and Dumbledore. I love writing Snape - even though he is not always the nicest person, he is really fun to write.
and
Question from the public: Also, will we see more of Snape?
Rowling: You always see a lot of Snape, because he is a gift of a character. I hesitate to say that I love him. [Audience member: I do] You do? This is a very worrying thing. Are you thinking about Alan Rickman or about Snape? [Laughter]
"I hesitate to say I love him" "I love writing Snape" and "a gift of a character" doesn't exactly sound like she dislikes him, does it?
Saracene - Jun 3, 2006 11:40 pm (#2315 of 2969)
Edited Jun 4, 2006 12:49 am
Well, I don't think it's mutually exclusive for JKR to enjoy writing Snape and call him "a gift of a character" and not like him one bit as a person. When she's talking about her favourite characters, she says that she -likes- Harry, Ron, etc., but that she loves -writing- Snape. Saying that you like a character is not the same as saying that you enjoy writing a character. I don't doubt that Snape is tremendous fun to write, he after all has some of the best lines in the series and he brings great tension and drama to every scene he appears in. But JKR also referred to him as "sadistic" and a "deeply horrible person".
I also got an impression from the interviews that JKR feels very strongly about female readers romanticising or airbrushing the characters who are really quite awful, cruel people.
Catherine - Jun 4, 2006 6:01 am (#2316 of 2969)
I also got an impression from the interviews that JKR feels very strongly about female readers romanticising or airbrushing the characters who are really quite awful, cruel people.
I agree with this.
I don't see Snape as a particularly remorseful character, especially as his "teaching persona" is concerned. One of the themes of the series is "choices," and I think that Snape chooses to be nasty.
I also think it is not quite honest to suggest that he hasn't inflicted damage upon his students.
I also happen to believe Sirius when he said that Snape knew so much about the Dark Arts as an entering student. Sirius and James were among the cleverest students at Hogwarts, and I think that, given what we've seen of their egos and confidence, this assessment may be true. Lupin respected Snape's ability as an Occlumens--are we to discount this just because Lupin was not friendly with Snape in school?
Tom Riddle was already on his way down a Dark path when he entered Hogwarts--and he didn't even live in a wizarding household. I think Snape could have learned plenty on his own, even without having a witch for a mother and his Prince relatives on her side.
Torill - Jun 4, 2006 6:23 am (#2317 of 2969)
Hmm - this is such an interesting discussion, and there is so much to comment on here now, that I don't really know where to begin... I will probably have to write more posts than one here...
Ok, first - whether Harry, Neville, Hermione and the rest will come away unhurt from Snape's bullying or not, is really not relevant in discussing what this bullying behaviour tells us about Snape's character. Or in judging those actions. Snape has no way of knowing that his cruelty will not cause the children any harm, so this is no excuse for him at all. This said, I will maintain that Snape is a major inhibiting force in Neville's life, one who contributes substantially to his lack of self esteem, and if Neville does now appear to be slowly outgrowing this, it is no thanks to Snape.. (Besides, recent research hints that bein bullied by a teacher is probably worse for a child than being bullied by his peers - but this is a different discussion..)
It is true that victims of abuse may sometimes themselves turn out to be abusive - but this is mostly about people who were abused by their parents as children. There is no evidence that suggests how someone who was bullied by his peers at school should bully his students as a teacher, though, and in situations that are far from similar to the ones where he himself was the victim to boot. But this is what we see Snape do. Neville is not a problem in his class, he is never one to make nasty remarks to Snape, be arrogant or abusive or anything that should remind Snape of earlier bullies. All he does is being clumsy - and there is no reason what so ever why this should trigger any of Snape's old schoolday traumas. On the contrary, Snape was a bright kid in potions class, and was probably never bullied by Slughorn in any way. From what we have learned about Slughorn it was probably the other way around, he is seen in HBP to be unfairly partial towards bright kids. So I can't excuse Snape's bullying of Neville as a result of his own traumatic experiences. It just doesn't show that pattern.
And where is the evidence in canon that Snape in any way regrets this behaviour, wishes he could stop it, but is unable to contain himself? No evidence at all I would say. It seems like Snape is perfectly snug and pleased with himself here; he seems to think his nasty behaviour towards the Gryffindors and his ridiculous favouring of he Slytherins are all perfectly justified.
In abusive parents who love their children but can't break the circle of abuse they are conditioned from their own upbringing to repeat, you will as a rule see plenty of clear evidence that they love their children, plenty of situations when they do try their best to be good and caring, even if they be somewhat helpless in their way of doing this. This behaviour may occur just as often as the abusive one, which is typically triggered by stress, or by situations similar to the ones when they themselves experienced abuse. (In fact, this contradictive and seemingly unpredictable behaviour may be just as hurtful to the child as the abuse itself.) But you see no such contradictions in Snape's behaviour. He is very predictably abusive to his victims, all around, and not just in situations similar to his experiences with the marauders.. .
As for not being willing to admit that Snape's actions in the war on Voldemort can be heroic because he is a child abuser, well I wouldn't be among the ones saying that. In fact, if Snape is firmly on the dark side all the way through book seven, I will be somewhat disappointed, since I actually find it very interesting how Rowling seems to be willing to let a cruel and sadistic person turn out to be on the right side in the war. This is such a a good way of getting across the principle of how you cannot sort everyone nicely into two categories: good people and Death Eaters.
But what I am not willing to do, is to go all the way in the opposite direction, as some Snape fans tend to do: say that because Snape seems to be brave in some situations, the fact that he is also cruel and sadistic - not only in his youth, but today - must be forgiven, overlooked or explained away. I think Snape should only be forgiven for his child abuse if he shows that he regrets it and is at least struggling to overcome it. So far, I have seen absolutely no evidence to this, on the contrary, so yes, I do loath Snape as a character. And I will still do that even if he turns out to be a Great War Hero - because that is just not the same as being a good person.
This post is probably getting too long already to further discuss why I believe Sirius' report of Snape's early investment in the Dark Arts to be at least fairly accurate, and not just a projection or defence. I will have to come back to that, then. Just note here that the most important of my arguments is probably that Sirius is discussing this in situations where he is NOT defending or justifying his own behaviour towards Snape. Lupin does that, but Sirius does not.
But before I close, I have to point out: Snape's mother may very well have been deep into the Dark Arts, even though she has a child by a Muggle. I can't see how that is an argument against how Snape may have learned about the Dark Arts from her. There is no reason to believe that fascination for the Dark Arts should only be limited to those who also believe in the "Pure Blood" ideology, and is willing to use these methods to achieve "ethnical cleansing". We are talking about two different subjects here. The Sirius quote about how the world cannot be divided in good people and Death Eaters will apply here as well. In the Potterverse, you will probably find both people who believe in the "Pure Blood" cause but will never touch the Dark Arts, and people who will accept mixed blood marriages but still be cruel enough to want to use Dark Arts methods to achieve their ends. Sadists may be found among the followers of more than one ideology, I would think.
winlia - Jun 4, 2006 8:12 am (#2318 of 2969)
Edited Jun 4, 2006 9:14 am
Ok, first - whether Harry, Neville, Hermione and the rest will come away unhurt from Snape's bullying or not, is really not relevant in discussing what this bullying behaviour tells us about Snape's character. Or in judging those actions. Snape has no way of knowing that his cruelty will not cause the children any harm, so this is no excuse for him at all. ---Torill
I agree. Snape has a mean streak, and he intends to do harm. I just don't think that the effects of his verbal abuse are meant to be a focus of these books. We're shown Spinner's End and the Worst Memory to engender in us some sympathy for Snape and to help us understand where his bitterness is coming from. We're supposed to admire Harry and the others for overcoming the adversity with which they are faced. I don't think, though, that we are meant to worry about what Snape is doing to Neville in the same way that we are meant to consider what the Mauraders may have done to Snape. I think JKR may be trying to make the point that not all personable people are kind, and not all crabby people are truly mean. (I always beat that one to death in my Stranger Danger talks with my extremely outgoing son.)
There's an interesting non-fiction book out there called Blink that talks about, among other things, how quickly people make judgments about others based solely on appearances and mannerisms. Those of you in the teaching profession may enjoy it.
Solitare, my father was a wonderful man, and he came from a physically and verbally abusive home. His upbringing wasn't his only exposure to violence--he was in the infantry of Patton's Third Army. I don't know what his stand was on flies, but when he would find a spider, he'd take it outside and set it free.
Mediwitch - Jun 4, 2006 8:49 am (#2319 of 2969)
Edited Jun 4, 2006 9:50 am
Wynnleaf #2309 While I agree that he says some appallingly insulting things sometimes, we have yet to be shown in canon how any of the students have been injured by Snape -- in the long run.
I would have to respectfully disagree with this point. Snape has consistently been cruel and harsh toward Harry (not that I think Harry is perfect, but that's another thread); when he was assigned to tutor Harry in Occlumency, it seemed quite clear (in canon) that Harry was resistant to learning Occlumency because it was Snape teaching him. This in turn led to Harry being fooled by Voldemort planting the false vision of Sirius being tortured, which led to the MoM battle and Sirius's death. And canon is very clear that this has indeed hurt Harry.
(Yes, I think that if Dumbledore had explained why occlumency was necessary, it might have mitigated Harry's response to Snape's instruction, and I know JKR has said Harry would not be a good occlumens, but I think the point still stands that Harry would have tried harder if the teacher wasn't someone who had bullied him since day 1.)
Hollywand - Jun 4, 2006 9:47 am (#2320 of 2969)
Edited Jun 4, 2006 10:53 am
Wow, what a great discussion!
I would submit that "Snape's Worst Memory" is not really about how Snape feels about the Marauders. The memory demonstrates James' ability to turn an attacker's weapon back upon the perpetrator. This is why it is Snape's worst fear: he "invents" the Levicorpus and Sectumsempra, and James uses the spells against him during the Pensieve scene. Rowling's larger message, which I think will be fully developed in book seven, it that when a person invents a dangerous weapon, it can always be used against them. Hermione points out that the Levicorpus is used against Muggles by Death Eaters during the Triwizard Tournament; the implication here is that Voldemort once mined Severus for useful weapons, and Severus didn't seem to care for that very much, I suspect.
Harry has inherited an instinctual ability to defend himself. We see this ability demonstrated many times from his humiliation of Lucius Malfoy and Dobby's sock, to casting the Patronus, to slaying the Basilisk. I think Severus in strategic enough to recognize Harry's natural instinct, even if Harry doesn't quite realize he has his father's talent for self-defense.
I teach in the Arts, in Painting and Drawing, a practice that takes years to master. I think I can draw a parallel with learning Potions as an analogy. I don't have much respect for my fellow teachers who encounter a bunch of novices who deseprately want to learn to express themselves, and humiliate their pupils because they don't immediately show proficiency with making art. To me, that's equivalent to a fully grown adult taking advantage of those who are much less mature, physically smaller and relatively inexperienced. I have heard teachers say, "That's so bad (the image) you shouldn't even put that up for critique. Take it down." I fail to see what useful lesson a student could get from that experience to advance their creativity. The teacher is a coward and a bully. During one of my introductory classes, I make a point to show the early works of Matisse and Van Gogh, and everyone has a good laugh at how awkward their early work was; it gives those who are inexperienced courage. My mantra to my students: I never met anyone who was humiliated so much they became a great artist. It's bizarre to me that others think humiliation is beneficial. As Rowling says, you may need to sort out your priorities.
Dumbledore has shown Severus significant compassion by taking him under his wing and allowing him within the Hogwarts community. It would be to his own benefit not to be so nasty; in fact, to present such a nasty demeanor to the world and expect others to struggle to understand him and not think badly of him is solipsistic.
Solitaire - Jun 4, 2006 9:49 am (#2321 of 2969)
Wynnleaf, I don't think I did misunderstand you. I just disagree after a certain point. I believe that if an abuse victim (of either gender) has become an abuser--and he sees this and truly loves his spouse and children--he WILL seek help for the problem. If he chooses not to get help--and remember how important the theme of choice is in these novels--then IMO he does not love the spouse and children as much as he says he does.
Perhaps this is an area where I have a blind spot. Two friends of mine nearly died from such "love." In one case, the abuser did not want to jeopardize his job and reputation in order to get help. In the other case, the abuser always said, "Now, look what you made me do." He saw the abuse not as his problem but as the fault of the victim--who made him do it. He didn't need any help.
I also got an impression from the interviews that JKR feels very strongly about female readers romanticising or airbrushing the characters who are really quite awful, cruel people.
I couldn't agree more. I think she is aware that many women are attracted to "bad boy" types, often resulting in their own destruction.
Winlia: Solitare, my father was a wonderful man, and he came from a physically and verbally abusive home. His upbringing wasn't his only exposure to violence--he was in the infantry of Patton's Third Army. I don't know what his stand was on flies, but when he would find a spider, he'd take it outside and set it free.
Your dad sounds like a man who did not feel his childhood had to define him. He clearly made his own choices and became the man he wanted to be. There is a point in our lives when we all must take responsibility for our own actions. We can choose to be compassionate or cruel. Snape has clearly experienced enough mercy and clemency as an adult to know that there is another way besides cruelty. When Snape behaves cruelly toward a student, it is because he has chosen to inflict pain on that student. He wants that person to hurt. He is such a brilliant Wizard that I find it difficult to explain his actions in any other way.
Catherine and Mediwitch, I agree with all points each of you made in posts #2316 and #2319. I won't repeat them here.
Solitaire
Fawkes Egg - Jun 4, 2006 10:00 am (#2322 of 2969)
Wow, this discussion sure moves fast!
Wynnleaf - excellent points in response to my post above.
Solitaire, you make an excellent point: Harry and Snape appear to have had similarly deprived childhoods - but theyhave chosen to react differently. This may or may not be a conscious choice, but it's a dichotomy that is almost universal.
I know two sisters, both raised by alcoholic, abusive parents. One sister has sadly followed in her parents' footsteps. The other refuses to touch alcohol herself, but has worked hard to provide a loving, supportive environment for her own children, making sure too that they understand that alcohol should be used responsibly - and they seem to have gotten the message.
It seems though, that choosing the compassionate route requires more work than sliding into the same patterns of cruel behaviour that a person may have suffered as a child. Harry actively struggles with the fact that he needs to stand alone against Voldemort, in order to protect those he cares for. But for Snape, sarcasm and cruelty to children in his care are probably all too easy.
Die Zimtzicke - Jun 4, 2006 2:27 pm (#2323 of 2969)
Snape TALKS cruelly, but when has he ever actually hurt one of the kids? He has even done things to protect them. He couldn't ever talk nicely to Gryffindors. His own Slytherin students would likely have reported back to their parents if he was overly kind to the other side. Instead they have been gleefully (I'll bet!) been reporting every nasty remark, giving Snape credibility.
From the time he was trying to save Harry from falling off his broom, to the night he searched the forest for the kids, when did he actually do anything that really hurt them? The advice he gave Harry when he fled Hogwarts was even good advice.
Someone who is verbally abusive because he almost has to be is not in the same league with someone who is actively trying to kill you, which is how I think a lot of people see Snape. Is he a good person? No, probably not. Is he redeeamable? Possibly. Is he totally evil? Not as I see it.
He's a gray character, which is a good thing. Not everyone can be dark or light-. Why should anyone expect or want all the characters to be dark or light?
Torill - Jun 4, 2006 3:20 pm (#2324 of 2969)
I would like to go back to the discussion of whether Snape really was deep into the Dark Arts already when he started school.
The evidence that convinces me about Snape's early investments in the Dark Arts comes from Sirius, not so much from Lupin, and indirectly from DD – there must be a reason why DD thought it would bring out the worst in Snape to let him teach Defense Against the Dark Arts…
The question is of course whether Sirius can be trusted when it comes to information about Snape. I confess to be absolutely convinced that Sirius would not tell a conscious lie about anyone, not even Snape. Jo says in the interview with Emerson and Melissa that Sirius, regardless of his flaws, has a deep sense of honour, and I think this is how he comes across in the series as well. You should definitely not come on the wrong side of his anger; but he is the kind who would attack his enemy directly up front, not by telling lies about him behind his back. I can't see Sirius painting someone as worse than he knows them to be, just to make himself appear better.
So to dismiss what he says about Snape’s early investment in the Dark Arts as evidence, one will have to make a case of how Sirius may be honestly convinced about how Snape was invested in the Dark Arts at eleven, but somehow be misinformed or slightly delusional about it.
I will try and counter some of the arguments presented so far in this discussion as follows (forgive me for paraphrasing and not quoting the arguments - I have done my best not to misrepresent, if I have, I apologise and allow you to hit me with a bogeybat hex)
Sirius would not be capable of recognizing someone being into the Dark Arts at such an early age as eleven. I think he would. He grew up in a family so invested in the Dark Arts that his mother had a horrible instrument, designed to run up your body and pierce your throat, at display in pride of place among other equally horrible things in her drawing room - not just hidden away in a drawer somewhere to be used against possible intruders. Sirius did in fact have all the reasons to be just as invested in the Dark Arts at the age of 11 as Snape ever was. Given a mother like that, I hold it to be highly likely that she had tried to influence him in that direction at an early age. Sirius must have been able to develop a very strong opposition against this at an early age. (I am not sure I would like to think about what this may have costed him in punishments and abuse, thinking about the character we see painted in that portrait in the hall at 12GP...) So yes, I think eleven year old Sirius would have spotted someone with a deep fascination for the Dark Arts right away.
Sirius was only projecting the interest in the Dark Arts he saw in his home onto Snape, so as to defend his bullying in retrospect. Consider the situation in the cave in GF, where Sirius first tells HRH about Snape and the Dark Arts. (p.460-461, UK paperback ed.) Bearing in mind that it was then less than a year since Snape had almost succeded in handing Sirius over to the Dementor's Kiss (and I believe Snape knew Sirius was innocent at that point, but this is another discussion,) it is not difficult to understand how the hatred towards him was still very strong in Sirius. If he had been subjected to projecting in regards to Snape as an adult, he would have definitely given in to all the projections he might have had about Snape at this point, and declared him to be the sure candidate for the traitor at Hogwarts. Both Harry and Ron gave him this assumption on a silver plate. This would have been far more acutely tempting for him than exaggerating about Snape's childhood interest in the Dark Arts. But he doesn't do this, he doesn't even use same childhood interest to argue that Snape must be a traitor. This is the first time Sirius gives the information about Snape and the Dark Arts, it happens long before Harry has even seen the incident in the pensieve. The information is also given in the exact same monologue where Sirius goes very far in almost declaring Snape's innocence, as he cannot see that the evidence against him are strong enough. When all this is taken together, I think it is a bit unfair to declare this information to be the result of unfair projections.
Also - isn't it a bit unfair to assume that James and Sirius would be perfectly willing to attack and bully someone in the way we see them do it in the pensieve, for no other reason than being able to? And just dismiss the explanation given by one of the parties as a projective defense, something he had to unconsciously lie about in retrospect to make himself feel better? We actually do not have any evidence whatsoever that James and Sirius were the general school yard bullies, ready to gang up against anyone who appeared weak and unpopular. Both Sirius and Lupin admits to the fact that they were arrogant and a pair of show offs at this point in their development - Sirius goes as far as calling them arrogant berks and idiots in OP, and indicates that James needed to have his head deflated - but this is not the same as a readyness to downright bully anybody without a cause. Lilly yells at James that he hexes anyone in the corridors "just because he can" - but there's a difference between hexing and cursing. Lilly may well have been hinting to nothing worse than a possible showing off of the Levicorpus and the like in the corridors. This would not be quite the same as mean bullying. But because we have just been shown how mean he could be to Snape when Lilly says this, many fans have taken her words to mean that James also could be - and often were – equally mean to anybody. But we actually have no evidence for this.
The marauders had a lot more cases of detention in Filch’s files than Snape, this may mean that they were often in trouble for bullying others, while Snape maybe didn’t do such things. Actually – Harry doesn’t get to go through all of Filch’s files, only the boxes Snape gives him. It is clear from his remarks that Snape knows exactly what Harry will find in there (p. 497, HBP, UK hardback) – and of course he wouldn’t hand over to Harry very many boxes with his own name in them, if there were any…
The nickname ”Snivellus” indicates that Snape was a bit weak and maybe crying a lot, and this may mean that he wasn’t capable of being deeply invested in the Dark Arts I would say that the exaqct opposite may be just as likely – the Dark Arts could appear tempting to someone who felt too weak to be able to stand up to his enemies the regular way. I can’t see how strength and the Dark Arts need to be necessarily connected. Besides – I wouldn’t be very ready to take the nickname given to someone by the ones who use it to bully him, to be an accurate description of his character traits in any way. ”Snivellus” is similar enough to ”Severus” to be adapted by bullies in order to mock someone for being a crybaby, without this having to be true at all. Teenage boys have been known to put each other down with nasty characerisations of the other one’s mother, and hints about sexual orientation – but none of this should be taken as evidence to the actual facts in any of these matters….
Torill - Jun 4, 2006 3:47 pm (#2325 of 2969)
Edited Jun 4, 2006 4:50 pm
Sorry for the double posting - but I think my former post is too long to edit anymore into it..
I want to apologise for accidentily deleting my latest post save the one above. I wanted to delete an earlier version of that one, because it was far too long, and then I hit the delete button of an earlier post first by mistake. I am sorry if anyone has read that and wants to reply to it, but now cannot find it. I can see how that is annoying, and assure you I will be more careful next time!
As I know have the floor anyway, I will take the opportunity of answering Die Zimtzicke who posted while I was writing the above. I don't agree that Snape is not hurting the kids with his verbal abuse. It is not only physical harm that may hurt somebody.
And no, I don't think that Snape is only abusive to keep his cover in front of the Death Eaters children. While Voldemort was Vapourmort, all the Death Eaters who managed to stay out of Azkaban were able to do so only because they pretended to have been under the Imperius curse. They made a point of being firmly behind DD and the ministry, happy because of how Harry had defeated Voldemort and in every way against the Dark side. You can read in CS about how Lucius instructs his son about this, about how it would not be prudent of him to be abusive to Harry at school. The Death Eaters will not expect Snape to act any differently than they all do, and Snape is smart enough to know this.
Catherine - Jun 4, 2006 6:30 pm (#2326 of 2969)
Snape TALKS cruelly, but when has he ever actually hurt one of the kids?
This question begs a reply.
He physically grabbed and threw Harry after the Pensieve "Pants" episode. This is an example of physical hurt, which does not even BEGIN to answer the question of psychological damage done other times, other places.
I teach, AND I'm a parent, AND I cannot imagine a scenario in which I would condone/allow/turn a blind eye/think was nifty/ think that students are horrible so that they deserve such treatment... in which Snape practices as we see him do toward Harry, Hermione, Neville, etc. Also, I think his favoritism could be construed as "damage" toward the Slytherins, if the argument came down to that.
So Snape got caught with his pants down?? Horrid. Embarrassing. Not nearly the motive to treat Neville and Hermione so awfully.
I still wonder if Snape depanted anyone during his tenure. He's not...erm..."lily pure" if you know what I mean.
wynnleaf - Jun 4, 2006 7:37 pm (#2327 of 2969)
Edited Jun 4, 2006 8:40 pm
"Snape knew more curses when he arrived at school than half the kids in seventh year," Sirius
This is pure hyperbole. When Sirius was a 1st year, he'd have no clue what curses the 7th years knew. Further, we've all seen the extent to which Harry really knows what goes on in other houses -- that is to say, not really very much. Sirius would only really know about Snape's knowledge of curses from when he'd seen him in some kind of altercation. Further, "knowing more curses," is not the same as "knowing more Dark Arts." In the Wizarding World of HP, "curse" is not synonymous with "Dark Arts." Curses include the impediment, reductor and body bind. Those certainly are not Dark magic.
"he was part of a gang of Slytherins who nearly all turned out to be Death Eaters." Sirius goes on to mention the Lestranges, Avery and Wilkes as part of the gang.
While this may certainly be true -- that Snape was part of a gang -- we see no evidence of a single friend defending him, or even being concerned about what was going on, in the "worst memory" scene (unless, of course, Lily was a friend). Yet we see Slytherins sticking up for each other in Harry's time. Was Snape really a close part of a Slytherin gang? Lucius, the only DE we see as a probable sometime friend of Snapes, is about 6 years older. The Lestranges, who Sirius mentions as part of this gang Snape was in, were about the age of Lucius (Black family tree) and would have been gone from Hogwarts by the time Snape was in 2nd or possibly 3rd year. I doubt if 7th year Lestranges would have had much to do with 1st or 2nd year Snape. So Sirius is again likely exaggerating some.
Next, it's interesting that you afford Sirius the assumption that he would not only not lie about this, but wouldn't exaggerate, and would give his comments about this fair treatment. However, when discussing Snape's giving Harry detention working on Filch's files you say "of course he wouldn’t hand over to Harry very many boxes with his own name in them, if there were any…" Why not? That's basically saying that we can expect honorable consideration from Sirius regarding Snape's activities, but not from Snape regarding his own activities.
Torill said Also - isn't it a bit unfair to assume that James and Sirius would be perfectly willing to attack and bully someone in the way we see them do it in the pensieve, for no other reason than being able to?
I don't assume it. That's exactly what James said. Lily said, "What's he done to you?" "Well," said James, appearing to deliberate the point, "it's more the fact that he exists if you know what I mean."
Where were those lofty protestations from James about the Dark magic Snape is involved in? No, "it's more the fact that he exists ."
Snape obviously hates Sirius and James with a passion. But Sirius hates him right back. I see absolutely no reason to think that Sirius doesn't have prejudicial views on Snape. Even as an adult, he said that Snape deserved the trick Sirius played that almost got Snape attacked by a werewolf. And why did he say Snape deserved it? Because Snape was following them around. For this, adult Sirius still thought he deserved that prank? Sorry, I just don't think we can expect Sirius to give fair unbiased information on Snape.
By the way, I wouldn't expect we'd get any more fair information about Sirius from Snape either. I certainly don't believe Snape's view that Sirius wanted to be seen in dog form so he'd be forced to hide away at Grimmauld Place. Snape hated Sirius and his remarks about him must be regarded as prejudiced. Same goes for Sirius.
The Artful Dodger - Jun 5, 2006 6:37 am (#2328 of 2969)
Edited Jun 5, 2006 8:04 am
Snape TALKS cruelly, but when has he ever actually hurt one of the kids? -- Die Zimtzicke
Neville's boggart turning into Snape or Hermione hurrying off to the hospital wing in tears seem good evidence that Snape does hurt his students.
He couldn't ever talk nicely to Gryffindors. His own Slytherin students would likely have reported back to their parents if he was overly kind to the other side. -- Die Zimtzicke
Are you suggesting that this might cause the loss of his position in Voldemort's inner circle? If so, then keep in mind that for his role as a double-agent, Snape needs Dumbledore's trust, and Voldemort might consider treating the Gryffindors friendly as a necessary means to get it. That seems plausible, given that Voldemort was (is) a talented actor himself and made good use of that ability at Hogwarts. In fact, it seems so plausible that I cannot understand why Snape's behaviour never made Dumbledore question his loyalty.
Where were those lofty protestations from James about the Dark magic Snape is involved in? No, "it's more the fact that he exists ." -- wynnleaf
James may have hexed Snape for the fact that he exists because loving the Dark Arts is part of his existence.
It seems Snape-fans tend to overlook pretty simple solutions against their cause (to keep it fair, you often see the same thing with Snape-haters, of course).
Catherine - Jun 5, 2006 7:00 am (#2329 of 2969)
Edited Jun 5, 2006 8:13 am
This is pure hyperbole. When Sirius was a 1st year, he'd have no clue what curses the 7th years knew.--Wynnleaf
I'm not sure why you say this.
Sirius is speaking from a perspective of many years. We don't see Sirius saying, as a first year, "Snape knows as many curses as a 7th year." We see a man who was himself one of the most talented students at Hogwarts in his day, who is a member of the Order of the Phoenix, reflecting back on his experience and making that qualification. We don't know exactly when Sirius reached this conclusion, but he says this about Snape at a time when Sirius has certainly got more than clue about what curses 7th years (and Death Eaters) use.
James may have hexed Snape for the fact that he exists because loving the Dark Arts is part of his existence. --Artful Dodger
James's friends make the point of telling Harry that James hated the Dark Arts. We also know that Snape took every opportunity to curse James. I think JKR included that information because she does not want us to think that Snape is without responsibility or blame in the matter. I don't think she included that information so that we could say, "Sirius and Lupin are prejudiced against Snape."
wynnleaf - Jun 5, 2006 7:16 am (#2330 of 2969)
James may have hexed Snape for the fact that he exists because loving the Dark Arts is part of his existence.
Nice solution. Unfortunately, we can only go by what James actually said.
As regards whether or not Snape has actually hurt any of the students... When I mentioned this originally, I meant that we are given no evidence in the books that any of the children has sustained any lasting harm from any of Snape's nasty comments. Now it's perfectly easy to assert that they have sustained lasting harm -- all you have to do is say "naturally those kind of nasty remarks harm children, therefore they must have sustained lasting harm." But regardless what our personal opinions may be of how much those kinds of remarks harm children, there are still no references to evidence that shows that anyone, including Neville, sustained lasting damage from Snape's remarks.
Torill mentioned that Snapes method in teaching Harry occlumency produced lasting harm, because Harry didn't succeed at learning occlumency. But JKR said that Harry wasn't really cut out for occlumency and therefore wouldn't have learned it anyway. And certainly, Harry didn't practice at all. That doesn't make Snape's occlumency teaching method in any way all right. But Harry did not sustain lasting harm from it.
I don't think there's a single reader that would suggest that Snape's remarks don't hurt children's feelings, or that Neville isn't scared of Snape. But regardless what any of us may think about whether or not Snape's kind of sarcastic, insulting remarks will cause lasting harm, the fact is that JKR does not have any of the kids sustaining lasting harm. She really indicates nothing more than hurt feelings, anger, and Neville's fear of Snape. Neville, if everyone recalls, was already highly uncertain of his magical abilities due to the sustained attitude of his grandmother, who seemed to treat him like a near-squib and a bit of an embarrassment to the family. Granted, Snape's attitude toward Neville doesn't help any, but you can't get around the fact that Neville's self-confidence seems to greatly improve over the books, which shows that regardless of what Snape has said and done to him, it didn't hold Neville back. That's to Neville's credit, not Snape's. But JKR does not write Neville has having been truly damaged by Snape's behavior.
I don't think Snape's sarcasm, insults, etc. are an act. There may be a bit of it that's acting -- perhaps the larger amount of points taken from other houses than Slytherin. But I tend to think it's Snape's true attitudes coming out. But that doesn't translate -- in the books at least -- into long term damage to students.
Remember what I keep saying about how easy it is to excuse bad behavior from people that act nice, compared to people who act nasty? Fred and George did do long term damage to Montague, but I have yet to read any fan who thinks less of Fred and George due to their actions. JKR wrote them as fun people and we, the readers, are meant to like them. So regardless what they do to others, even if it results in true long term damage, we don't hold it against them.
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Catherine - Jun 5, 2006 7:30 am (#2331 of 2969)
Edited Jun 5, 2006 8:31 am
When I mentioned this originally, I meant that we are given no evidence in the books that any of the children has sustained any lasting harm from any of Snape's nasty comments.
We seem to have gone from the word "harm" to the phrase "lasting harm."
I will assert that Snape did cause Harry lasting harm by spying on Dumbledore's meeting with Sybill Trelawney and reporting the prophecy to Voldemort. Harry lost his parents as a result. Snape also refused to continue Occlumency lessons with Harry; the results of this choice devastate Harry.
I'm not certain that I believe that Snape was remorseful about James's death. I'm also really bothered by what Bellatrix did to Frank and Alice Longbottom, and Snape's attitude toward Neville throughout the books. I see no reason not to believe that Snape was in a gang of Slytherins that included Bellatrix, even if Bellatrix was older. Snape seems to be kicking Neville when he's already lost so much.
wynnleaf - Jun 5, 2006 7:39 am (#2332 of 2969)
Edited Jun 5, 2006 8:43 am
Let me see if I can explain my thoughts about Sirius recollection of Snape age 11, a little better.
If any of you are mid-30's or older, how many of you can actually remember detailed information about the abilities of other kids you knew at age 11? I'm not talking about your close friends, but kids you weren't close to and perhaps that you didn't get along with and only had in some classes? I mean, seriously, do we really expect Sirius at about age 35 to be able to recollect clearly what curses, hexes, jinxes, etc. Snape knew when he first came to Hogwarts, compared to the various spells Snape knew in 2nd, or 3rd, or 4th years and so on? And then remember this so clearly that he could make an accurate judgement on the degree to which Snape's magical knowledge at age 11 compared to 7th years? Of course Sirius doesn't really know this information accurately!
Nor do I think Sirius was lying -- that is, I don't think Sirius was intentionally making this up. What I think Sirius was doing was recalling his school age assessment of Snape as being someone who knew a lot more magic than other kids his age and used some spells (hexes, jinxes, curses etc), that no other younger students seemed to know. I think that when Sirius was a kid, because of his great dislike for Dark Arts as well as Slytherin in general, probably translated into "wow, this guy is heavily into the Dark Arts!" and continued with that assessment in all his dealings with Snape. Certainly Snape did get into the Dark Arts and learned a great deal about it. This would naturally further enhance Sirius view as well as make his memory of Snape at 11 years old seem even more accurate, because Snape had ultimately fulfilled Sirius' assumptions.
But that doesn't mean that Snape actually came to school heavily into Dark Arts.
Further, as I said before, "curses" are not necessarily "dark arts," so knowing a lot of hexes, jinxes, and curses could be learned from books at home, yet not necessarily be related to Dark Arts at all.
Last, it would be nice if no one made the mistake of thinking I'm trying to make Snape seem nicer than the books. I am simply trying to discourage people from attributing worse things to Snape than we actually know. And I don't think Sirius' "knowledge" of Snape can be trusted as adding to what we know about Snape.
Solitaire - Jun 5, 2006 7:50 am (#2333 of 2969)
there must be a reason why DD thought it would bring out the worst in Snape to let him teach Defense Against the Dark Arts
Apparently Dumbledore had concerns over Snape's involvement in and fascination with the Dark Arts.
This is pure hyperbole. When Sirius was a 1st year, he'd have no clue what curses the 7th years knew.
... unless he knew from observation! Actually, Sirius was in a great position to know what 7th years knew. Sirius's favorite cousin, Andromeda, seems to have been more than seven years older than he. Wouldn't she have been in a pretty good position to give him all kinds of information on such things? I know I asked my older cousin all sorts of things about school, college, etc. He was a fountain of information! Just something to consider ...
Solitaire
The Artful Dodger - Jun 5, 2006 8:25 am (#2334 of 2969)
Edited Jun 5, 2006 9:46 am
Nice solution. Unfortunately, we can only go by what James actually said. -- wynnleaf
Why can't we go only by what Sirius says about Snape and Dark Arts, then? Just as you claim that Sirius is inaccurate and not the whole story, I think that existence means more to James than being alive, and that it is quite logical to assume this.
Now it's perfectly easy to assert that they have sustained lasting harm -- all you have to do is say "naturally those kind of nasty remarks harm children, therefore they must have sustained lasting harm." -- wynnleaf
Note that I didn't say that. I personally think that short and intense pain is bad enough. And that none of the kids sustained lasting harm is debatable, anyway; see the following.
She really indicates nothing more than hurt feelings, anger, and Neville's fear of Snape. -- wynnleaf
Neville's boggart turns into Snape since the third year, possibly earlier. If that hasn't changed, Neville's worst fear (and not just fear!) since at least three years is Snape. How can you not call this "lasting damage"?
But JKR does not write Neville has having been truly damaged by Snape's behavior. -- wynnleaf
I guess this happened unintentionally, but it sounds like Snape has damaged Neville, just not truly. Which of course doesn't give Snape any credit.
Torill - Jun 5, 2006 8:56 am (#2335 of 2969)
Edited Jun 5, 2006 9:57 am
I think I need to make it clear here that I do not wish to find reasons for James' bullying of Snape that would absolve him of all blame. No matter how deeply invested in the Dark Arts Snape may have been at this point, no matter the history of mutual attacks he and James may have had; the fact remains that James and Sirius attacked him unprovoked when he was unaware, and subjected him to the humiliation of his fellow students. It was cruel and mean, and I do not wish to defend it.
But I do not wish to make it worse than it was either. Seeing something like that, I would want to understand the reasons, and the true dynamics between the people involved.
I don't read James' answer to Lily as evidence that the true reason why he bullies Snape has nothing at all to do with who and what Snape was as a student, but only to do with how James needs his fun. His answer, with its mock deliberation, is obviously as much a part of the ongoing bullying of Snape as it is an honest answer to Lily; and it is a cruel, demeaning thing to say, too.
But even if taken at face value - why should he loathe Snape's very existence so much? By this answer, James admits it hasn't got so much to do with what Snape has done to him especially, not only about self-defence or retaliation or who did what to whom earlier; but as much to do with the kind of person that Snape is. And that is the crucial point here, isn't it?
Actually, one of the chief reasons why I think Sirius' explanation of the conflict between the two of them is plausible, is because it does shed some light on how a situation like this could have developed. Sirius describes the conflict as a deeply personal thing between Snape and James, calling it "one of those things". When he offers the Dark Arts as explanation of James hatred, it is to explain how it all started. What he thinks are Snape's motives back then does not have to be true, Snape's wouldn't exactly have shared his thoughts and feelings with Sirius. He is a lot better witness when it comes to James' motives though, he probably was among the ones who knew James' the best.
I can certainly see how a young Snape, coming from a troubled background, possibly lacking in social skills and not exactly with his looks going for him, could have been stupid enough to use his knowledge of the Dark Arts to try and impress, intimidate, defend himself against real or perceived attacks, perhaps even try and win some frinds through it. He may soon have learned that this was a bad idea... but some of those who later turned DEs might have taken an interest in him. The fact that he drifted towards the wrong crowd early on may have played a vital role in his later development, and was probably a lot more important than the conflict with James.
Yes, I believe they might not have liked him enough to stick up for him when he was in trouble - it may be that they just tolerated him but couldn't be bothered to defend him. If this is so, I can't see how Sirius exaggerates here. All he says is that Snape was "part of" a gang, he does not touch upon his position within the gang at all, and that may not have been so obvious from the outside either. Again, this "underdog" position among the ones whose friendship he really wanted, may have contributed to Snape's negative development a lot more than an animosity with some Gryffindors he was supposed to loath on principle anyway.. (And as for the timeline arguent concerning who was part of the gang - I hate too say this, but Jo is too often too sloppy with her maths for me to take timeline arguments too seriously. In the familiy tree for instance, someone is made to be a father at thirteen - I don't think Jo really meant that...)
Even if it may have started with a hatred because of the Dark Arts on James' part; at the end of their fifth year, the deeply personal conflict between James and Snape appears to have gotten completely out of hand. I would think that at this point, it no longer had one simple, clear-cut explanation either of them would have been able to articulate meaningfully in front of an audience. To James at this point, it probably wasn't only about the Dark Arts any more; it probably also was about Snape's spying and ratting to the teachers, his horrible curses and his blood prejudices, and yes, even his looks and his greasy hair. I think that Snape at that age probably also could have stated with vehemence how he hated James' very existence. I think he would have been able to, and even wanted to, do each of the things to James that James did to him in the pensieve, had he been given the chance to strike first.
I never meant to say that you can always take everything that Sirius says about Snape as unbiased. Far from it, Sirius was no saint. Sometimes he even lashes out to Snape in order to hurt and put down, as when he calls Snape Lucius' lapdog. I would never take that as solid proof of the true relationship between those two men. I was only discussing whether what Sirius says about Snape and the Dark Arts can be taken as evidence. Before we decide this, I believe we have to evaluate the context in which he says it, and with what motive, to what purpose it is said. In fact, I think this is necssary to do for all of the characters, when deciding what to believe of what they say in the series.
In the context of the situation you refer to, wynleaf, it is very clear that Snape gives Harry files with information about his father's punishments to hurt and annoy him. I am sure Snape sees this as a just and becoming punishment; but his object is in no way to give Harry an opportunity to compare James' conduct at school with his own.
The context of the conversation in the cave in book four, indicates very strongly in my opinion that what Sirius says about Snape and the Dark Arts is about something real, not just a self-serving projection. What he says in book five fits in with what he says here, thus this gives credit to that situation also. Here they are, Sirius and HRH, debating who the traitor at Hogwarts is. Sirius has a very deep interest in discovering that traitor: Harry's very life is at stake. His motive to try and look at the evidence as objective as possible is therefore very strong here. It would have been disastrous to let his hatred overrule his reason, and paint Snape darker than he is, just because this would justify his hatred.
He could still have done it of course. It would have been human, if not wise or honourable. Maybe he would have too, if Harry had been accusing him of the bullying of Snape, thus provoking Sirius' possible defences and projections. But this is not what happens. Harry has not seen the pensieve scene yet, and makes no secret of how he loathes Snape. Both he and Ron suggests Snape as the possible traitor. This would work directly to allow Sirius to abandon his possible projective defenses: his own hatred and loathing is confirmed and validated from the one he cares about the most in this world. Sirius has nothing to defend in this particular situation, nothing to lose, and can therefore afford to be fairly open and objective about the sensitive subject - and so he comes out virtually clearing Snape.
This doesn't mean we have to take every detail in what he says here as correct, of course. "More curses than half the seventh year" should not be taken literally, it's just an illustration. Just as Jo says somewere that Hagrid has feet the size of baby dolphins, that should only be taken to mean: "very huge compared to normal feet". Sirius is merely driving home a point here. The vital information is that Snape stood out among his peers at the age of eleven, when it came to knowledge of and admiration for the Dark Arts
Magic Words - Jun 5, 2006 8:57 am (#2336 of 2969)
there must be a reason why DD thought it would bring out the worst in Snape to let him teach Defense Against the Dark Arts
Do we know this for a fact, or is it just what Snape told Bellatrix?
I don't see it as very relevant whether or not any students suffered lasting harm from Snape's remarks, unless you want to argue that since they didn't, that proves the remarks weren't really that bad. I suppose Snape could have considered what he thought the students could handle, but that seems unlikely. To me, the question is whether he meant to cause lasting harm, whether he simply didn't think, didn't care, or whether he thinks they need toughening up and is trying to help in some twisted way.
Catherine - Jun 5, 2006 9:09 am (#2337 of 2969)
Last, it would be nice if no one made the mistake of thinking I'm trying to make Snape seem nicer than the books. I am simply trying to discourage people from attributing worse things to Snape than we actually know.
We do "know" things from the books; you seem to have discounted the evidence. It is up for individuals to decide, I suppose, how much weight they wish to give certain characters' words.
But I do not think it is "wrong" for readers to decide that they believe Sirius when he says that Snape was part of a Slytherin gang. Nor is it "wrong" for readers to decide that they think that Snape was an oddball student who was fascinated by the Dark Arts, and came to school unusually well-equipped with jinxes and curses.
As for me, I'm having a difficult time reconciling Dumbledore's trust of Snape, as we've seen Dumbledore make errors of judgment concerning Snape in the past. Lupin, a character who has given Snape the benefit of the doubt (praising his Occlumency, encouraging Harry to get past his dislike of Snape to participate in the lessons) seems appalled when Harry tells them why Dumbledore trusted Snape.
Die Zimtzicke - Jun 5, 2006 9:15 am (#2338 of 2969)
When Hermione went off crying, it certainly was because Snape had not been sympathetic to her, but he wasn't he one who enlarged her teeth. We still haven't got one case here of Snape going past verbal abuse besides him pushing Harry after the pensieve scene, when he obviously lost his temper. He should not have, not the way he lectures Harry about control. But what else have we got besides that one instance?
He could have let Quirrell toss Harry off his broom. He could have left the kids in the forest, and not gone looking for them in OotP. He could have killed Harry when he found him unconcious by the lake in PoA, run to Voldemort with the body and gotten a huge reward. No matter what anyone says about Harry being Voldemort's to finish, I can't believe anyone who showed up with a dead Harry would be in that much trouble. He could have, as far as that goes, let the death eaters kill Harry after the battle on the tower, but he tells them to leave Harry for Voldemort.
I don't see how we can prove that Snape knew for sure Harry would lose his parents, especially since he only gave Voldemort half the prophecy, which could also have applied to Neville. I actually think he may have heard the whole thing and concealed half of it, since Trelawney knew he was there, which she could not have done if he had already been gone when she came out of her trance.
McGonnagall is strict too, and no one ever calls her on it. Was it good for poor Neville's ego to have her tell him in front of the whole class not to let the Durmstrangs know he couldn't do a simple switching spell? Should someone have complained about the fake Moody sooner, after he traumatized Neville by making him watch the curse that was used on his parents?
Most of this stuff with Snape is petty and related to ego or self esteem. (If you think your teachers are mean to you, wait until you get a hard you-know-what boss. Let's face it, when you get out into the world, no one cares about your self esteem but you. I tell all of my kids that, and I am a mother of many.) If any of the kids in the Potterverse lets themselves fail because they are hurt by something Snape said, then they are being weak in wartime. They need people to be hard with them, and not cuddle them all the time. Maybe Snape goes too far. I'll concede that, but they can't be totally cocooned, either. Snape is a vivid example of the old adage, "When the going gets tough, the tough get going."
I'm not saying Snape is a good guy, or a hero. I'm just saying he's not pure evil, from what I have seen. I just like characters who have some gray to them. He's complex to me in a book where a lot of characters are VERY flat to me.
Catherine - Jun 5, 2006 9:30 am (#2339 of 2969)
Edited Jun 5, 2006 10:31 am
When Hermione went off crying, it certainly was because Snape had not been sympathetic to her, but he wasn't he one who enlarged her teeth. We still haven't got one case here of Snape going past verbal abuse besides him pushing Harry after the pensieve scene, when he obviously lost his temper. He should not have, not the way he lectures Harry about control. But what else have we got besides that one instance?
I disagree with your assessment of the "teeth" episode. Snape was cruel about Hermione's teeth, not "unsympathetic." He set her up for public ridicule.
How about threatening Neville with poisoning Trevor? How about actually using Trevor as the test for Neville's potion?
How about having Neville and Harry do dententions sorting through slimy things without gloves?
How about performing the Avada Kedavra curse on Dumbeldore? Talk about performing illegal curses in front of students...Harry was there, under the cloak, and Draco was there as well.
I believe that verbal abuse (which is not strictness, nor the kind of "telling off" that McGonagall does) is as harmful as physical abuse. My opinion of that aside, Snape's actions descend into psychological abuse.
journeymom - Jun 5, 2006 11:58 am (#2340 of 2969)
Edited by Catherine Jun 5, 2006 1:31 pm
Wow, great discussion.
First, I'll reiterate that I'm a Snape fan. In the same way that I really like Hannibal Lecter in both the book and the movie. Lecter got inside my head and is incredibly charismatic. He is undeniably a fantastic character.
But in reference to Jo's expression of disappointment that women are attracted to Snape, just as I wouldn't want to actually spend much time with Hannibal Lecter (might be dangerous ), I wouldn't want to spend time with Snape. I certainly wouldn't marry a man like him. In fact I married the polar opposite; dh's personality is silly, funny, emotionally stable and he hasn't got a mean bone in his body. And he's not emotionally stunted, either, as Snape sort of seems to be. (But then, that's my adult woman appraisal. I don't think Jo's 13 y.o. readers care about that.) My point is that in the defense-of-Snape/defense-of-Marauders debate, it's clear to me at least that you can LOVE Snape and still think he's despicable.
In regard to Filch's detention files, I immediately decided this was simply Snape reminding Harry that James and Sirius were no angels. I'll have to go back and read that portion, to see if it truly emphasises that the Marauders got detention and Snape did NOT. But that's a good point, that Snape could easily make sure that Harry only saw the files he wanted him to see.
A small question; zapping flies, is it meaningful? Sure. It's a small demonstration of Snape's personality and abilities. And situation. I don't think we should make as much of it as Riddle hanging the rabbit. I really don't feel as bad for a fly on the windshield as I do for bunny roadkill. But it shows Snape's room had flies, yuck. It shows him bored and entertaining himself by killing flies. I don't care about the flies. But he's not entertaining himself in some obviously more wholesome way. And, he's he's bettering his wand skills.
I also wonder about the beginnings of the Marauder's dislike for Snape. Do we agree that James was the de facto leader of the group? It immediately bothered me that the ultimate explanation given for James' dislike of Snape is that James hated the dark arts. So what? What does that really have to do with Severus Snape? I'll condemn Snape for his actions, not his association with a title (Dark Arts).
One point made in James' favor that I'll keep is that this was during the 1st war with Voldemort and I don't have James' perspective as a wizard living under that deadly shadow. So I just can't know how scary it was and how disgusting it might be to learn that someone would choose to follow the dark side over the light.
I also agree Sirius was not speaking literally, but making a point when he said Snape started school knowing as many dark spells as half the 7th years. But you all have made some good points about Sirius. I've never thought much about him, I don't especially like him. But it's a good point that he overcame difficult odds coming from such a Dark home. That must have been very challenging. It IS a correlation to the choice that Snape made, I think, and also analogous to Harry's experience growing up with the Dursleys. Without knowing more about James' family, Sirius seems to be better justified being all righteously angry about 11 year old Snape's dark tendendcies.
Sirius says Snape gave as good as he got, and I believe it. His demonstrated abilities and personality make it believeable. I just wish we knew for sure who started the feud, and in what manner. A good portion of Book 7 could be dedicated to that story and I'd be very happy, but I know that won't happen.
My opinion, Snape is a mean, nasty guy. He's unfair, cruel and abusive to his students. The fact that Snape has never shown any remorse or inclination to make ammends is crucial to the theme of redemption. IF he's a good guy, then he HAS been attempting to make amends for his choice to take the prophecy to LV.
I removed a Forum unfriendly abbreviation and substituted the word "guy." Please do not use abbreviations if the spelled-out version would be unacceptable. Please remember that the Forum tries to remain friendly to members of all ages.--Catherine
haymoni - Jun 5, 2006 12:04 pm (#2341 of 2969)
Snape just has the best lines and yes, I am clouded by Alan Rickman, but so what???
No - I would not like to share a compartment on the Hogwarts Express with Snape - I'd pick Sirius every time.
But I can still enjoy reading about him.
I think it is like actors that like playing the bad guy. No, they don't want to BE the bad guy, but it's got to be a release to say everything that Snape says.
Jo did teach, after all. Maybe Snape lets her vent a bit. He says the things she wished she could have said, but was much too polite to do so.
wynnleaf - Jun 5, 2006 12:27 pm (#2342 of 2969)
Edited Jun 5, 2006 1:30 pm
Torill, there is a great deal of what you theorize of Snape in your last post that I agree with. I am actually not, as it may appear to some, trying to say that Snape wasn't strongly interested in the Dark Arts, or doesn't say hurtful things to his students.
However, I find it hard to believe that someone thoroughly seduced by the Dark Arts would make the huge change that Snape is apparently supposed to have made when he was only about 19 or 20 years old.
When Draco can't kill DD on the tower, we really only see that Draco finds that he can't kill someone face-to-face. We do not see him necessarily making some huge paradigm shift. I would find it difficult to believe, for instance, that he would suddenly be willing to risk his life for the side of Light. And we don't even have a lot of direct evidence that Draco spent much of time learning and practicing Dark Arts. Sure, he's willing to use Crucio, and buy Darkly cursed objects from Borgin and Burkes, but we aren't lead to believe he's studying up on becoming a Dark Arts expert.
Yet Snape apparently made a huge, dramatic shift. He goes from taking the Dark Mark and being a full-fledged DE, a spy for LV, and a person who it seems was studying the Dark Arts intently, to being willing to not only run to DD with the news that LV was targeting the Potters, but being willing to risk his life on a day-to-day basis to bring down LV. That is a very, very big shift. If Snape was really a Tom Riddle look-alike as a kid (personality and interests wise), I would find that unbelievable. The fact that he made the change he did, and was willing to so markedly risk his life for it, leads me to believe that it was never so thoroughly ingrained, even to the degree that DE beliefs are ingrained in Draco, much less Riddle.
I do not, for instance, think that Snape was into the blood purity thing, because he used "half-blood" in his name for himself. Riddle, on the other hand, hid his half-blood roots and developed a completely new name with a sort of vainglorious title.
Below is a bit of a personal confession and I do feel as though I take a risk admitting this.
The question of Snape's sarcastic and insulting comments to students leads many to believe that his entire personality must be shot through with cruelty. I tend to take this notion rather personally. I take it personally because I have had several people very close to me over the years who had extremely similar ways of talking to people. I never used to relate those people to Snape's comments, but since HBP, it dawned on me that if I were a fan fic writer (I'm not) I could probably put together long, long pages of Snape dialogue simply by using the spoken and written dialogue from the people I know. Once I realized that, I started to listen to these friends with a particular "ear" for how their comments would sound especially if they were written down. I actually found it got extremely funny as I'd think "this was such a wonderful line, but someone else would read this as being terrible." I began to realize that a great deal of what was said could be interpreted by someone who knew the person as a particularly caustic, gallows humour sort of joke, but if written down would seem utterly appalling. I knew that only those who really understood where those particular people were "coming from" would understand the intent of what was said, but that many other people -- complete strangers, or those predisposed to take what was said in a negative way, for instance -- would probably "hear" the comments in the same way those comments look when written down. Absolutely awful. I guess that's when I started to take Snape personally. I'd read back over dialogue in the books and think, "okay, how would this or that person I know have intended that remark?" And suddenly, Snape didn't seem nearly as intentionally cruel. Yes, there were still places where he seemed intentionally cruel , but not nearly as much as before. But on an even more personal level, I started "hearing" the words of friends through the "ears" of others who would probably think their words were indicative of being a terrible person. And yet I knew these people were in fact rather wonderful people in prickly, ascerbic, hard-to-deal with ways. And I started to get somewhat defensive about it all.
I've talked to a few other HP fans who have had good friendships or family relationships with people who are like this, and they too, often see Snape as this kind of person. I think for those that know and appreciate people who talk this way, it's not hard to see Snape's mode of talking from a very different vantage point. But there is no way that I could explain that or convince someone who had not already really known and enjoyed those types of people. If you're not the type of person to like someone who talks like that, I don't think you'd ever "read" any of Snape's comments as anything other than intentionally cruel.
It may be that Snape is intended by JKR to be completely and intentionally cruel in all of the remarks he makes to students. But the fact is that there are people who say many similar things who do not intend them cruelly.
By the way, I don't care for the way Rickman plays Snape and it is not the way he plays Snape that makes me "read" the character the way I do.
I might add, several of the people I've personally known who talked like that were teachers. However, they were teachers at the high-school and college level and tended to draw students who came to appreciate their personalities. I myself, for instance, mentioned on this thread really liking a teacher in college who was very, very Snape like in his style of speaking and dealing with students. Perhaps these people are not very good for younger students, but the one's I've known did quite well with older students who learned to interpret their remarks and also learned how to respond to them. I've sometimes wondered if the main reason the Slytherins like Snape, when Gryffindors absolutely don't, isn't just because of house rivalry, but also perhaps because they are more likely, through their personality types, to be able to understand him.
The thing of threatening Trevor, for instance. I never, ever would suspect Snape would actually hurt Trevor. I read that through my own filter of knowing people who would make a similar kinds of threat -- not as a joke, but as what they'd expect anyone to realize as an over-the-top kind of threat which basically means "take this very seriously," even though the threat itself is not actually serious. Honestly, I don't think I can explain this unless you already know and understand this style of talking.
Last, of the people I know who will talk like that, some tended toward bitterness and others are not bitter or resentful people at all. The underlying bitterness or lack thereof, does seem to make a big difference in the way that style of communicating comes across to others.
Okay, out with the dungbombs. I really can't explain or attempt to convince on this. But perhaps you guys will at least understand why I seem to care so much.
Catherine - Jun 5, 2006 12:46 pm (#2343 of 2969)
The thing of threatening Trevor, for instance. I never, ever would suspect Snape would actually hurt Trevor. I read that through my own filter of knowing people who would make a similar kinds of threat -- not as a joke, but as what they'd expect anyone to realize as an over-the-top kind of threat which basically means "take this very seriously," even though the threat itself is not actually serious. Honestly, I don't think I can explain this unless you already know and understand this style of talking.
The point I was making was not whether Snape intended to hurt Trevor but that the students believed he would. As a matter of fact, I don't think Snape would have been too fussed if Trevor had "croaked" during the test.
I am unsure if JKR intends for Snape's apparent cruelty to be read through a sympathetic filter by subsitituting friends' voices for Snape's voice. Also, I think that humor and sarcasm must be treated gently. For example, I am naturally quite a sarcastic person, and I have a child with an autistic spectrum disorder. She simply does not "get" sarcasm and many forms of verbal humor, and can be left feeling quite threatened and left out. I've had to conscously modify my behavior in order to accomodate her needs. Carelessness with words does wound people, even if they aren't "special" like my daughter. It's a hard learned lesson that I have taken with me to my classroom.
I do not think that Snape is merely careless with his sarcasm, however. I think he intends to prick, to hurt, to wound. I think he enjoys it. That's actually one reason that, as a character, he both fascinates and repels me.
journeymom - Jun 5, 2006 12:54 pm (#2344 of 2969)
Edited Jun 5, 2006 1:56 pm
I completely understand what you mean about Snape's style of communication, and agree, except where it applies to 11 y.o.'s and the like. An emotionally stable grown-up, even with an ascerbic wit, would eventually figure out that that style of speech hurts Neville more than it helps, and would quit it.
But your theory is supported by JKR's own sly wit, I think.
I think Snape definitely tends towards bitter and resentful.
winlia - Jun 5, 2006 2:18 pm (#2345 of 2969)
The question of Snape's sarcastic and insulting comments to students leads many to believe that his entire personality must be shot through with cruelty. I tend to take this notion rather personally. I take it personally because I have had several people very close to me over the years who had extremely similar ways of talking to people.
My eight-year-old son occasionally comes to me and asks if specific words are bad. (Usually, they're not.) I tell him that what you say and how you say it depends on your audience, and that what's considered offensive varies widely from person to person. I think I'd like your friends, wynnleaf. I doubt that Snape is quite as nice as they are, though. I don't think he means to devastate anyone, but most of the time (not always), he's being deliberately unkind.
I'm a huge fan of Dorothy Parker, the writer from the 20's. She was a bit mean (maybe more than a bit), a bit tragic, and extremely funny.
I'm comfortable with my understanding of Snape's remarks. To me, they reveal that he's somewhat nasty, and a bit jealous of the socially-adept kids. And I feel that I understand the some aspects of the pensive scene. It sets up the heightened tension between Harry and Snape, shows that Harry isn't completely innocent, and makes us (most of us) and Harry feel some sympathy for Snape. What I don't understand, and I'd love to hear the thoughts of the others on this thread, is the purpose that was served by showing Harry how cruel his father could be. I'm sure it was deliberate by JKR, but why? Just to drive Harry further from trusting Snape?
Magic Words - Jun 5, 2006 2:29 pm (#2346 of 2969)
Edited Jun 5, 2006 3:30 pm
I think it's meant to be an important step in Harry's development that has little or nothing to do with Snape. Harry's spent his whole life hearing how he's just like his father, and with the exception of Snape, everyone who says that means it as a compliment. So he's striven to be just like (how he perceives) James. But at some point, when he's old enough, he has to learn that it's better to be your own person than to let someone else dictate who you are, even if the someone else is a parent.
Edit: It also does have some effect on how we view Snape, because until then we've assumed he was lying about James out of jealousy, but now he's been somewhat vindicated.
winlia - Jun 5, 2006 2:42 pm (#2347 of 2969)
Edited Jun 5, 2006 3:43 pm
Let's face it, when you get out into the world, no one cares about your self esteem but you. I tell all of my kids that, and I am a mother of many. ---Die Zimtzicke
I heartily agree. The trend is to be very gentle and emphathetic when dealing with kids in the lower grades (epitomized by giving everyone on the team a trophy), and while it feels good now to see my children being cherished by their teachers and coaches, I suspect they are in for a rude awakening as they approach adulthood.
One component of a happy life is not hurting others, but equally important is not being overly-sensitive.
journeymom - Jun 5, 2006 3:05 pm (#2348 of 2969)
Edited Jun 5, 2006 4:06 pm
"The trend is to be very gentle and emphathetic when dealing with kids in the lower grades (epitomize by giving everyone on the team a trophy), and while it feels good now to see my children being cherished by their teachers and coaches, I suspect they are in for a rude awakening as they approach adulthood. "
Off topic a bit here, but I have to comment: I'm probably naive but isn't it possible that after several years of 'attachment parenting', gentle discipline, consciousness raising, positive behavior modification and any number of other childhood behavior theories that have been implemented by parents and teachers in the past 50 years, some of this might have actually *worked* on the last couple of generations? I know it's easy to make fun of psych theories as applied to raising and teaching children. But if the last generation was raised by thoughtful parents and teachers who cherished them and rewarded them for their efforts (if not their achievements) then perhaps when they become adults, and become bosses (and teachers) they will treat their underlings better than previous generations did. I mean, that's supposed to be the whole point of raising our children gently and with dignity. There has to be a better way. If I discover that my child is being treated cruelly by an adult I will no doubt tell her that's life and to expect more of it, but I'll also look into this adult's actions and see if follow up on my part is necessary.
And I disagree that they'll be in for rude awakening. Or, really, so what if they are? If we've done our jobs right, our adult children will be emotionally strengthened by a positive childhood, and therefore able to handle rude awakenings with grace.
Yes, I'm one of those who thinks that if Severus Snape had been nursed longer and held more and had more hugs he wouldn't have turned to The Dark Side. If only his father told him he loved him!
Catherine - Jun 5, 2006 3:08 pm (#2349 of 2969)
One component of a happy life is not hurting others, but equally important is not being overly-sensitive.--Winlia
I so totally agree. I try to teach this.
I do not think, however, that Harry, Ron, Hermione, or Neville could be "overly-sensitive" given Snape's actions.
I do not nitpick, for example, when Snape ridicules Hermione for being a know-it-all. The teeth thing, though, that was too much.
Snape's attitude toward Neville is almost brutal, and I can't see what Neville has done to deserve it. I still wonder if Snape could have been behind the attack on the Longbottoms (NO, there is no canon evidence there, I simply wonder) or prevented it.
Ron--well, he's Bill's brother (Bill didn't like Snape) and he's pureblood and from a blood traitor family. I still can't imagine what Ron really did to Snape to elicit a comment about Ron's appparating (which, techinically, is none of Snape's business, is it?)
Harry--in my opinion, is still on the "plus side" of the equation. It seems as though Harry came to Hogwarts on the "debit" side, due to his father, although this is so immature to me.
winlia - Jun 5, 2006 3:32 pm (#2350 of 2969)
Edited Jun 5, 2006 5:03 pm
journeymom
I do my best to be kind, and I think most who know me well would consider me to be so (Lex members may disagree ), but I have no illusions that everyone else will be kind to me. (I haven't been proven wrong either.) I don't think the world has changed all that much in the last 40 years, not in that regard. For one thing, some kids are still as cruel to each other as they were in my day.
Edit
And I disagree that they'll be in for rude awakening. Or, really, so what if they are? ---journeymom
If they are, they may well be living in my basement when they're 35. Not that they won't be welcome, of course...
Pamzter - Jun 5, 2006 3:33 pm (#2351 of 2969)
Okay, here's something bizarre. I was dreaming last night, absolutely nothing to do with HP. However at the very end of the dream I walked by a table and overheard a woman telling her friend, "Well, you know, Snape is married of course." I woke up and thought, "That's stupid. He is not."
But I've been thinking about it all day. JK said that we're going to find out some of the Hogwarts teachers are/have been married and why we haven't heard about it before. Well, who cares if Flitwick or Sprout is married and what could it add to the story? However, if Snape has been married . . . JK also said she was surprised that someone asked if Snape had ever been loved because of something that is going to be revealed later . . . And beyond committing an unbreakable vow with Dumbledore, a wife would make DD's trust in Snape more undertandable.
Now, I actually don't really believe it myself, but it's an interesting thought. It's also interesting to try to think of evidence for something you don't agree with.
Plus, just in case it does happen, I wanted to have evidence (after I scraped myself up off the ground from disbelief).
Any comments?
haymoni - Jun 5, 2006 3:43 pm (#2352 of 2969)
Pamzter - those of us who have been posting awhile on the Forum know exactly to whom Snape is married - Gina Snape!!! She won't let you forget it either!!
I don't think Snape has been married.
I don't know why - I have no concrete, canon-based reason.
It just doesn't SEEM right.
Snape is nasy and snide, but who is going to correct him? Should Harry run to Dumbledore every time Snape says something? I'm wondering if teachers in English boarding schools aren't a bit more like Snape.
As for the prizes all around, I think it's fine for stuff like T-ball, where you don't really keep score, but eventually everyone figures out who is best at baseball.
Someday, you aren't going to get the job, or get the promotion, or get the loan, or get the girl, or get the healthy kid. If you've taught your children that they are more than just an athlete or an artist or a scholar or "the nice kid", they'll be fine.
Snape was definitely lacking something - perhaps it was his father or maybe it was just a shower.
Catherine - Jun 5, 2006 5:59 pm (#2353 of 2969)
Snape was definitely lacking something - perhaps it was his father or maybe it was just a shower.--Haymoni
This is WRONG, but...
ROFL...ROFL.....
OKay...back to what Snape is lacking. Is it compassion...heart....? He seems to berate Harry for showing emotions that betray longing, jealousy, or fear.
Coincidence?
timrew - Jun 5, 2006 6:03 pm (#2354 of 2969)
You wanna know what Snape is lacking? Just follow your nose, because it's definitely soap or shampoo..................
And he wears greying y-fronts!
wynnleaf - Jun 5, 2006 6:13 pm (#2355 of 2969)
Edited Jun 5, 2006 7:15 pm
Over on the yahoo HP for adults group, there was a conversation about a week or so ago where a long time teacher at a British boarding school (complete with houses), said that a number of the teachers there were sort of like Snape. In fact, she said that she was more that way herself. Further, according to this lady, she felt that schools would tend to hold onto a teacher whose students had high percentages of good scores (Snape said he had a very high OWL pass rate for his students), and that would be considered a lot more important than their style of dealing with students.
Of course, I have no idea if that's really true, but it's just what one person said.
I had an interesting conversation with my 13 yr old son this evening. Three of my kids when in 5th grade had a teacher that they all liked. But for each kid, I really worried at first how they'ed get along with the teacher. I even requested that my 10 year old daughter not be in this teacher's homeroom, because I thought she might be sort of traumatized by him. Instead, she spent all year wishing she was in his homeroom. I asked my son to refresh my memory about this male teacher. He is very easily angered and yells at the students often. My daughter who just left 5th grade was convinced that if angered enough he would throw a kid out the 2nd floor window - he certainly said he would. I understand he told them that he had done that before. He'd often use the best kids in the class as examples of terrible behavior (facetiously evidently, but as though it was true). All of my children said he was much more strict about work and classroom behavior and his punishments a lot more quickly forthcoming than other teachers. My son said when he got angry at you he made you feel terrible. My son told me that with one particularly badly behaved kid, the teacher actually grabbed the child by the arms and held up against the wall (yes, I know, they aren't supposed to do that!). Yet all my kids developed much stronger time management skills under this teacher. They all showed a strong improvement in work with this teacher. And the strangest of all, they all really, really liked this teacher, more than almost any other.
I asked my son which kids tended to dislike this teacher and he replied that the kids who misbehaved the most were the only ones who disliked him. My son, by the way, is definitely no angel and got his share of being yelled at from that teacher. I asked my son why he liked this teacher so much. It apparently was because they loved hearing whatever he'd say next. My son said you could learn great lines from him.
I've known this guy as a coach and as a parent. He's a very tough and strict coach and goes overboard (I think) in not wanting to coddle a child. While he's perhaps a strict parent, he's actually very gentle with his little children -- one of my girls used to babysit for them or just go over to visit and play with their toddlers.
Now am I saying Snape is like this? No, no, no! But I am trying to say that sometimes behavior that we think is going to be really bad for kids is actually not really as bad as we'd assume. Kind, encouraging teaching styles are great for kids. But some teachers can be completely different, and not kind at all, but instead rather scary for kids, and yet achieve great results and even be liked by students.
sere35 - Jun 5, 2006 6:35 pm (#2356 of 2969)
Edited Jun 5, 2006 7:40 pm
If I had kids I would not mind them having a teacher like Snape. As long as the teacher would do their best to convey the information I am fine with it. If my child was 11 years or older and as long as the teachers were not physically abusive; I would tell them to suck it up and that life is like that, and to get use to it. Wynnleaf I have heard that the boarding schools are like that to. Another thing teachers are not their to coddle the kids, hold their hands and praise them for every little thing, they are their to convey the information.
Hollywand - Jun 5, 2006 7:13 pm (#2357 of 2969)
Well, this seems to me to be growing antecedotal rather than a discussion of the Rowling text. Our school has a very harsh instructor who yells at the students and calls them idiots, and our students don't love her at all. They talk constantly about instructor's effective teaching styles, and can recognize it when someone is abusive and bad at delivering information. Our school is moving to take the teacher out of her teaching position.
Rowling also provides Hagrid, Dumbledore and McGonnagall, which I'm sure are intended a much more positive mentor contrasts to Severus Snape, as well as Sirius and Lupin.
haymoni - Jun 5, 2006 7:23 pm (#2358 of 2969)
When filming GOF, they said it was much more "British" and that Hogwarts was much more like a British boarding school.
I look at MadEye's performance in the classroom - specifically throwing the chalk at Seamus - as well as Snape's physical performance during study hall.
If "more British" means more physical or scary or demanding, then perhaps the characterization of Snape is not that far off.
Hollywand - Jun 5, 2006 10:38 pm (#2359 of 2969)
I'm not sure that's an accurate account of the contemporary British school system. If you follow the news in the UK, they are moving toward much more concern for students safety---I mean, Rowling herself is leading the way on humane treatment of children.
Saracene - Jun 6, 2006 3:34 am (#2360 of 2969)
Regarding Snape's feud with James, I tend to go by Sirius' comment that Snape and James loathed each other from the moment they met. I imagine a sort of instant antipathy that's almost on a molecular level or something; hate on first sight, so to speak. I certainly can't imagine that, in the entire school, Snape was the -only- student interested in Dark Arts.
I don't remember any indication though that -Sirius- was feeling righteous indignation about Snape's interest in Dark Arts.
I'm very sceptical about the idea that Snape "gave as good as he got". The way I see it, the power balance in their feud simply could not be equal because of the different positions Snape and James held in the school hierarchy.
wynnleaf - Jun 6, 2006 5:19 am (#2361 of 2969)
I'm very sceptical about the idea that Snape "gave as good as he got". The way I see it, the power balance in their feud simply could not be equal because of the different positions Snape and James held in the school hierarchy.
Not to mention that it appears that at least James and Sirius did work together. Even the detentions, which didn't necessarily have anything to do with Snape, showed them into most mischief in pairs or groups. Neither Lupin or Sirius ever mention Snape and a friend joining in opposing the Maruaders. I didn't get the impression from the pensieve scene that Snape had a greater ability at throwing hexes, jinxes, and curses than James and Sirius. So two, three or four against one doesn't look like he could "give as good as he got."
Pinky Prime - Jun 6, 2006 9:47 am (#2362 of 2969)
Edited Jun 6, 2006 10:59 am
I posted this on another thread but I think it applies here...
Was Snape using Legitimacy on Trelawney the whole time and getting buzz sounds? Who knows for sure what assignment LV had him on. It may very well be to secure the prophesy from Trelawney by other means. Even she can't remember what happens in her trance state! I surely hope that Harry will figure out why Snape was at Hogwarts in the first place! Legilimency or not I think Harry can sense evil. That may well be a latent ability. It is my opinion that Harry would have easily made it as a Dark Wizard and that may be why the Sectumsempra spell worked so well against Malfoy. Due to his connection to LV.
DD knew this! His choices and not ability however, may manifest from his conscience for not doing permanent damage to people. That may be the reason his Crutiatus curse was so weak against Bella and Snape.
Die Zimtzicke - Jun 6, 2006 8:20 pm (#2363 of 2969)
Has anyone ever considered that maybe teaching just isn't Snape's thing? Snape possibly is the way he is, at least partly, because he just doesn't really want to teach. I can see him wanting to do research, and be left alone with his work, and not having to deal with a bunch of low-level talent kids. Unluckily for him, he has to be at Hogwarts teaching, either because Voldemort wanted him there, or Dumbledore wanted him there, or both. Like Trelawny, whom I consider an abysmal teacher, he has to be held in place for whatever reason. She was most likely there for her protection. Him, I don't know, but I don't think either of them is there for their talent at teaching. For that matter, neither is Binns, who redefines the word tenure, and not in a good way.
Maybe Snape just hated his situation, but was trapped in it. Just because you're good at something doesn't mean you CAN teach it, or SHOULD teach it or even WANT to teach it.
journeymom - Jun 6, 2006 10:17 pm (#2364 of 2969)
Hm, yes, you know how they say those can't do, teach instead. Perhaps Snape has been put in the untenable situation of being brilliant at what he does but being forced to teach anyway.
Ann - Jun 7, 2006 6:05 am (#2365 of 2969)
Edited Jun 7, 2006 7:28 am
I think one perspective that's being left out of this discussion is the fact the JKR clearly is manipulating our perspectives about Snape. She wants us to believe that he's horrible and then that he's redeemable, and then later that, nope, we were wrong, he's horrible. Remember back when Book 3 came out, she was hinting that there's more to Snape than meets the eye, because after his ranting attacks on Harry, readers were too inclined to dismiss him entirely. After he is clearly shown as being Dumbledore's left hand man (McGonagall being his right) in Book 4, however, readers were cutting him too much slack, so she had him being even more nasty (particularly to Sirius) in Book 5, although in Books 5 and 6, she balances all the nastiness with Dumbledore's trust--and then with Snape's murder of Dumbledore, she makes us question whether that trust is a mistake. It's quite clear what she wants us to believe at the end of Book 6 (which tends to make me think that Book 7 will prove just the opposite view).
JKR clearly doesn't see Snape as a nice man (she says she's based him partly on a nasty teacher of her own). And, of course, he did join the Death Eaters. So he's not likely, really, to be the sensitive, misunderstood nice guy one sees in some fan fiction. On the other hand, just as with the conversation between Snape and Quirrell in the forest in Book 1, She's clearly showing us a skewed picture because she's trying to direct our belief in such a way that when we see the whole picture we'll say, 'oh, yes, well, that was there all the time, but I didn't notice it.'
In Book 4, for example, she has Sirius tell Harry: "Snape’s always been fascinated by the Dark Arts, he was famous for it at school." "Fascinated by" may mean simply intrigued. He says to Narcissa that DADA was his best subject. Perhaps better than Sirius & James, Sirius is holding this against him? (He taunts him in the Pensieve incident saying that his greasy nose will make the answers unreadable--not that the answers would be wrong.) "Snape knew more curses when he arrived at school than half the kids in the seventh year and he was part of a gang of Slytherins who nearly all turned out to be Death Eaters." The first seems unlikely, given his family (Muggle father, mother who married a Muggle), but perhaps he had some Dark, Black-like cousins who thought it was amusing to teach Dark magic to an eleven-year-old. The "gang of Slytherins" comment, which says he was friends with Avery, Wilkes, Rosier, and the Lestranges, is clearly odd, since at least Bellatrix was out of school by the time he arrived and they are clearly NOT friends in HBP. So it seems likely that Sirius's perceptions are not entirely correct.
The Pensive incident in OotP cuts a lot of different ways. Yes, Snape probably used a Dark curse that cuts James (just as Harry does, when he's attacked by Draco, though I've never thought it was the Sectumsempra, since James does not seem to be bleeding badly nor worrying about scars). And he calls Lily a Mudblood (but I am convinced that this is why it's his worst memory--because he's goaded by shame into attacking her). On the other hand, James and Sirius are shown to be ganging up on him, two to one, attacking without provocation and not even bothering to justify it. But what's probably the most cruel is that they use his unpopularity to make him even a greater object of scorn and derision, for the lowest of motives (showing off, to girls and each other). Harry is right to be angry and disgusted with them all in this scene. And adult Sirius says only that Snape was "up to his eyeballs in the Dark Arts" (not that he used them, mind you--just as Sirius said earlier that he was "fascinated" by them). And that he's jealous of James's popularity.
Hired as a teacher at 22, Snape was only 4 years out of Hogwarts himself. He clearly still felt very closely tied and loyal to his house, of which he was made Head. McGonagall, by contrast, is less partial, since she was out of school for many, many years before returning. To differentiate himself from his students and maintain discipline in a subject that can be extremely dangerous, he doubtless adopted the scary persona we see. He is, by this time, Dumbledore's spy (since he turned spy "before Voldemort's downfall"). By this time, also, he has presumably learned some self control; he's still an emotional, violent man, with a penchant for the Dark, but his spite is limited to words (his only physical attacks--against Sirius at Grimmauld Place and against Harry after the Pensieve incident--occur under fairly extreme provocation), and in the duel with Harry at the end of HBP he limits himself to blocking and disarming Harry. This is not to say that people can't be terribly hurt by words; but words are certainly superior to blows, if you're going to lose control. And what we see him doing puts him firmly in the "protect the students" camp--possibly even including his murder of Dumbledore.
So, no, he's not a nice man. But he's not as evil as she wants us to think he is, either.
(Sorry to be so long-winded.)
Hollywand - Jun 7, 2006 6:54 am (#2366 of 2969)
An wonderful, articulate post Ann. I agree with your well advanced arguments. I will look forward to seeing if the "Worst Memory" title is identified. You raise an interesting motive for Snape's distate for the memory. Hmmm.
TomProffitt - Jun 7, 2006 8:37 am (#2367 of 2969)
Severus Snape is not in the habit of liking and respecting people. Not only did the Marauders bully him, I imagine that the "Gang of Slytherins" bullied him as well. Every teenager, even the introverted ones, desperately want to fit in somewhere, somehow.
James and Sirius enjoyed bullying Severus. Severus's worst memory is one of total humiliation at the hands of the supposed good guys. Is this his worst memory not because he was humiliated, but because it was the incident that made him choose to hang with future Death Eaters? Is that why Severus truly hates James & Sirius? Not because they tried to have him attacked by a werewolf, but because Severus would choose the Death Eaters over the Order of Phoenix as a result of this incident.
Now, obviously, Severus is responsible for his own choices and actions. Severus, I think, craves recognition and fame. He wants to be a hero, he is not one to wait on the sidelines. He doesn't just hate Harry for his resemblance to his father, but because he is the Wizarding World's hero with out having done anything other than be loved by his mum.
I think it shallow that concern for Lily alone would be Severus's motivaton. We have really seen no evidence along those lines, but we have seen plenty of Snape belittling Harry's accomplishments and extolling his own. He is torturing himself because he wants to see Harry fail and knows he can't allow it to happen.
I hope this makes sense, I hadn't really thought it out before hand.
haymoni - Jun 7, 2006 8:50 am (#2368 of 2969)
The "Lucius's lapdog" comment made me think that Severus may not have been an ubercool Slytherin.
TomProffitt - Jun 7, 2006 9:00 am (#2369 of 2969)
"... Severus may not have been an ubercool Slytherin." --- haymoni
I doubt that the Slytherins treated Severus much better than James & Sirius did. I see him as being forced to be someone else's Crabbe or Goyle. I'm sure he hated it, but saw it as better than being caught on his own by the Marauders again. Dumbledore is probably the only person who has treated him with respect, at least prior to him coming to Hogwarts. And that's probably why he stayed, regardless of what he told Narcissa & Belatrix, the Hogwarts Staff were the first people to treat him with respect and as an equal.
wynnleaf - Jun 7, 2006 9:05 am (#2370 of 2969)
Ann,
Thank you for a well thought out, balanced post!
With most of the characters, whatever JKR tells us about the character can generally be considered simply expanded or deeper insight into the character. But with Snape, JKR is actively trying to pull us back and forth in our opinion of him, rather than trying to give us a full or complete view of his motivations, personality, etc.
With Lupin, for instance, we may debate his strengths and weaknesses, but overall, we know JKR is presenting us with actions, words, events that help us see the character more clearly. That's true with most of the characters. But with Snape, she's trying to keep us confused.
That alone makes it much more difficult for understand him. And of course, that's exactly what she wants.
Edited Jun 5, 2006 8:31 am
When I mentioned this originally, I meant that we are given no evidence in the books that any of the children has sustained any lasting harm from any of Snape's nasty comments.
We seem to have gone from the word "harm" to the phrase "lasting harm."
I will assert that Snape did cause Harry lasting harm by spying on Dumbledore's meeting with Sybill Trelawney and reporting the prophecy to Voldemort. Harry lost his parents as a result. Snape also refused to continue Occlumency lessons with Harry; the results of this choice devastate Harry.
I'm not certain that I believe that Snape was remorseful about James's death. I'm also really bothered by what Bellatrix did to Frank and Alice Longbottom, and Snape's attitude toward Neville throughout the books. I see no reason not to believe that Snape was in a gang of Slytherins that included Bellatrix, even if Bellatrix was older. Snape seems to be kicking Neville when he's already lost so much.
wynnleaf - Jun 5, 2006 7:39 am (#2332 of 2969)
Edited Jun 5, 2006 8:43 am
Let me see if I can explain my thoughts about Sirius recollection of Snape age 11, a little better.
If any of you are mid-30's or older, how many of you can actually remember detailed information about the abilities of other kids you knew at age 11? I'm not talking about your close friends, but kids you weren't close to and perhaps that you didn't get along with and only had in some classes? I mean, seriously, do we really expect Sirius at about age 35 to be able to recollect clearly what curses, hexes, jinxes, etc. Snape knew when he first came to Hogwarts, compared to the various spells Snape knew in 2nd, or 3rd, or 4th years and so on? And then remember this so clearly that he could make an accurate judgement on the degree to which Snape's magical knowledge at age 11 compared to 7th years? Of course Sirius doesn't really know this information accurately!
Nor do I think Sirius was lying -- that is, I don't think Sirius was intentionally making this up. What I think Sirius was doing was recalling his school age assessment of Snape as being someone who knew a lot more magic than other kids his age and used some spells (hexes, jinxes, curses etc), that no other younger students seemed to know. I think that when Sirius was a kid, because of his great dislike for Dark Arts as well as Slytherin in general, probably translated into "wow, this guy is heavily into the Dark Arts!" and continued with that assessment in all his dealings with Snape. Certainly Snape did get into the Dark Arts and learned a great deal about it. This would naturally further enhance Sirius view as well as make his memory of Snape at 11 years old seem even more accurate, because Snape had ultimately fulfilled Sirius' assumptions.
But that doesn't mean that Snape actually came to school heavily into Dark Arts.
Further, as I said before, "curses" are not necessarily "dark arts," so knowing a lot of hexes, jinxes, and curses could be learned from books at home, yet not necessarily be related to Dark Arts at all.
Last, it would be nice if no one made the mistake of thinking I'm trying to make Snape seem nicer than the books. I am simply trying to discourage people from attributing worse things to Snape than we actually know. And I don't think Sirius' "knowledge" of Snape can be trusted as adding to what we know about Snape.
Solitaire - Jun 5, 2006 7:50 am (#2333 of 2969)
there must be a reason why DD thought it would bring out the worst in Snape to let him teach Defense Against the Dark Arts
Apparently Dumbledore had concerns over Snape's involvement in and fascination with the Dark Arts.
This is pure hyperbole. When Sirius was a 1st year, he'd have no clue what curses the 7th years knew.
... unless he knew from observation! Actually, Sirius was in a great position to know what 7th years knew. Sirius's favorite cousin, Andromeda, seems to have been more than seven years older than he. Wouldn't she have been in a pretty good position to give him all kinds of information on such things? I know I asked my older cousin all sorts of things about school, college, etc. He was a fountain of information! Just something to consider ...
Solitaire
The Artful Dodger - Jun 5, 2006 8:25 am (#2334 of 2969)
Edited Jun 5, 2006 9:46 am
Nice solution. Unfortunately, we can only go by what James actually said. -- wynnleaf
Why can't we go only by what Sirius says about Snape and Dark Arts, then? Just as you claim that Sirius is inaccurate and not the whole story, I think that existence means more to James than being alive, and that it is quite logical to assume this.
Now it's perfectly easy to assert that they have sustained lasting harm -- all you have to do is say "naturally those kind of nasty remarks harm children, therefore they must have sustained lasting harm." -- wynnleaf
Note that I didn't say that. I personally think that short and intense pain is bad enough. And that none of the kids sustained lasting harm is debatable, anyway; see the following.
She really indicates nothing more than hurt feelings, anger, and Neville's fear of Snape. -- wynnleaf
Neville's boggart turns into Snape since the third year, possibly earlier. If that hasn't changed, Neville's worst fear (and not just fear!) since at least three years is Snape. How can you not call this "lasting damage"?
But JKR does not write Neville has having been truly damaged by Snape's behavior. -- wynnleaf
I guess this happened unintentionally, but it sounds like Snape has damaged Neville, just not truly. Which of course doesn't give Snape any credit.
Torill - Jun 5, 2006 8:56 am (#2335 of 2969)
Edited Jun 5, 2006 9:57 am
I think I need to make it clear here that I do not wish to find reasons for James' bullying of Snape that would absolve him of all blame. No matter how deeply invested in the Dark Arts Snape may have been at this point, no matter the history of mutual attacks he and James may have had; the fact remains that James and Sirius attacked him unprovoked when he was unaware, and subjected him to the humiliation of his fellow students. It was cruel and mean, and I do not wish to defend it.
But I do not wish to make it worse than it was either. Seeing something like that, I would want to understand the reasons, and the true dynamics between the people involved.
I don't read James' answer to Lily as evidence that the true reason why he bullies Snape has nothing at all to do with who and what Snape was as a student, but only to do with how James needs his fun. His answer, with its mock deliberation, is obviously as much a part of the ongoing bullying of Snape as it is an honest answer to Lily; and it is a cruel, demeaning thing to say, too.
But even if taken at face value - why should he loathe Snape's very existence so much? By this answer, James admits it hasn't got so much to do with what Snape has done to him especially, not only about self-defence or retaliation or who did what to whom earlier; but as much to do with the kind of person that Snape is. And that is the crucial point here, isn't it?
Actually, one of the chief reasons why I think Sirius' explanation of the conflict between the two of them is plausible, is because it does shed some light on how a situation like this could have developed. Sirius describes the conflict as a deeply personal thing between Snape and James, calling it "one of those things". When he offers the Dark Arts as explanation of James hatred, it is to explain how it all started. What he thinks are Snape's motives back then does not have to be true, Snape's wouldn't exactly have shared his thoughts and feelings with Sirius. He is a lot better witness when it comes to James' motives though, he probably was among the ones who knew James' the best.
I can certainly see how a young Snape, coming from a troubled background, possibly lacking in social skills and not exactly with his looks going for him, could have been stupid enough to use his knowledge of the Dark Arts to try and impress, intimidate, defend himself against real or perceived attacks, perhaps even try and win some frinds through it. He may soon have learned that this was a bad idea... but some of those who later turned DEs might have taken an interest in him. The fact that he drifted towards the wrong crowd early on may have played a vital role in his later development, and was probably a lot more important than the conflict with James.
Yes, I believe they might not have liked him enough to stick up for him when he was in trouble - it may be that they just tolerated him but couldn't be bothered to defend him. If this is so, I can't see how Sirius exaggerates here. All he says is that Snape was "part of" a gang, he does not touch upon his position within the gang at all, and that may not have been so obvious from the outside either. Again, this "underdog" position among the ones whose friendship he really wanted, may have contributed to Snape's negative development a lot more than an animosity with some Gryffindors he was supposed to loath on principle anyway.. (And as for the timeline arguent concerning who was part of the gang - I hate too say this, but Jo is too often too sloppy with her maths for me to take timeline arguments too seriously. In the familiy tree for instance, someone is made to be a father at thirteen - I don't think Jo really meant that...)
Even if it may have started with a hatred because of the Dark Arts on James' part; at the end of their fifth year, the deeply personal conflict between James and Snape appears to have gotten completely out of hand. I would think that at this point, it no longer had one simple, clear-cut explanation either of them would have been able to articulate meaningfully in front of an audience. To James at this point, it probably wasn't only about the Dark Arts any more; it probably also was about Snape's spying and ratting to the teachers, his horrible curses and his blood prejudices, and yes, even his looks and his greasy hair. I think that Snape at that age probably also could have stated with vehemence how he hated James' very existence. I think he would have been able to, and even wanted to, do each of the things to James that James did to him in the pensieve, had he been given the chance to strike first.
I never meant to say that you can always take everything that Sirius says about Snape as unbiased. Far from it, Sirius was no saint. Sometimes he even lashes out to Snape in order to hurt and put down, as when he calls Snape Lucius' lapdog. I would never take that as solid proof of the true relationship between those two men. I was only discussing whether what Sirius says about Snape and the Dark Arts can be taken as evidence. Before we decide this, I believe we have to evaluate the context in which he says it, and with what motive, to what purpose it is said. In fact, I think this is necssary to do for all of the characters, when deciding what to believe of what they say in the series.
In the context of the situation you refer to, wynleaf, it is very clear that Snape gives Harry files with information about his father's punishments to hurt and annoy him. I am sure Snape sees this as a just and becoming punishment; but his object is in no way to give Harry an opportunity to compare James' conduct at school with his own.
The context of the conversation in the cave in book four, indicates very strongly in my opinion that what Sirius says about Snape and the Dark Arts is about something real, not just a self-serving projection. What he says in book five fits in with what he says here, thus this gives credit to that situation also. Here they are, Sirius and HRH, debating who the traitor at Hogwarts is. Sirius has a very deep interest in discovering that traitor: Harry's very life is at stake. His motive to try and look at the evidence as objective as possible is therefore very strong here. It would have been disastrous to let his hatred overrule his reason, and paint Snape darker than he is, just because this would justify his hatred.
He could still have done it of course. It would have been human, if not wise or honourable. Maybe he would have too, if Harry had been accusing him of the bullying of Snape, thus provoking Sirius' possible defences and projections. But this is not what happens. Harry has not seen the pensieve scene yet, and makes no secret of how he loathes Snape. Both he and Ron suggests Snape as the possible traitor. This would work directly to allow Sirius to abandon his possible projective defenses: his own hatred and loathing is confirmed and validated from the one he cares about the most in this world. Sirius has nothing to defend in this particular situation, nothing to lose, and can therefore afford to be fairly open and objective about the sensitive subject - and so he comes out virtually clearing Snape.
This doesn't mean we have to take every detail in what he says here as correct, of course. "More curses than half the seventh year" should not be taken literally, it's just an illustration. Just as Jo says somewere that Hagrid has feet the size of baby dolphins, that should only be taken to mean: "very huge compared to normal feet". Sirius is merely driving home a point here. The vital information is that Snape stood out among his peers at the age of eleven, when it came to knowledge of and admiration for the Dark Arts
Magic Words - Jun 5, 2006 8:57 am (#2336 of 2969)
there must be a reason why DD thought it would bring out the worst in Snape to let him teach Defense Against the Dark Arts
Do we know this for a fact, or is it just what Snape told Bellatrix?
I don't see it as very relevant whether or not any students suffered lasting harm from Snape's remarks, unless you want to argue that since they didn't, that proves the remarks weren't really that bad. I suppose Snape could have considered what he thought the students could handle, but that seems unlikely. To me, the question is whether he meant to cause lasting harm, whether he simply didn't think, didn't care, or whether he thinks they need toughening up and is trying to help in some twisted way.
Catherine - Jun 5, 2006 9:09 am (#2337 of 2969)
Last, it would be nice if no one made the mistake of thinking I'm trying to make Snape seem nicer than the books. I am simply trying to discourage people from attributing worse things to Snape than we actually know.
We do "know" things from the books; you seem to have discounted the evidence. It is up for individuals to decide, I suppose, how much weight they wish to give certain characters' words.
But I do not think it is "wrong" for readers to decide that they believe Sirius when he says that Snape was part of a Slytherin gang. Nor is it "wrong" for readers to decide that they think that Snape was an oddball student who was fascinated by the Dark Arts, and came to school unusually well-equipped with jinxes and curses.
As for me, I'm having a difficult time reconciling Dumbledore's trust of Snape, as we've seen Dumbledore make errors of judgment concerning Snape in the past. Lupin, a character who has given Snape the benefit of the doubt (praising his Occlumency, encouraging Harry to get past his dislike of Snape to participate in the lessons) seems appalled when Harry tells them why Dumbledore trusted Snape.
Die Zimtzicke - Jun 5, 2006 9:15 am (#2338 of 2969)
When Hermione went off crying, it certainly was because Snape had not been sympathetic to her, but he wasn't he one who enlarged her teeth. We still haven't got one case here of Snape going past verbal abuse besides him pushing Harry after the pensieve scene, when he obviously lost his temper. He should not have, not the way he lectures Harry about control. But what else have we got besides that one instance?
He could have let Quirrell toss Harry off his broom. He could have left the kids in the forest, and not gone looking for them in OotP. He could have killed Harry when he found him unconcious by the lake in PoA, run to Voldemort with the body and gotten a huge reward. No matter what anyone says about Harry being Voldemort's to finish, I can't believe anyone who showed up with a dead Harry would be in that much trouble. He could have, as far as that goes, let the death eaters kill Harry after the battle on the tower, but he tells them to leave Harry for Voldemort.
I don't see how we can prove that Snape knew for sure Harry would lose his parents, especially since he only gave Voldemort half the prophecy, which could also have applied to Neville. I actually think he may have heard the whole thing and concealed half of it, since Trelawney knew he was there, which she could not have done if he had already been gone when she came out of her trance.
McGonnagall is strict too, and no one ever calls her on it. Was it good for poor Neville's ego to have her tell him in front of the whole class not to let the Durmstrangs know he couldn't do a simple switching spell? Should someone have complained about the fake Moody sooner, after he traumatized Neville by making him watch the curse that was used on his parents?
Most of this stuff with Snape is petty and related to ego or self esteem. (If you think your teachers are mean to you, wait until you get a hard you-know-what boss. Let's face it, when you get out into the world, no one cares about your self esteem but you. I tell all of my kids that, and I am a mother of many.) If any of the kids in the Potterverse lets themselves fail because they are hurt by something Snape said, then they are being weak in wartime. They need people to be hard with them, and not cuddle them all the time. Maybe Snape goes too far. I'll concede that, but they can't be totally cocooned, either. Snape is a vivid example of the old adage, "When the going gets tough, the tough get going."
I'm not saying Snape is a good guy, or a hero. I'm just saying he's not pure evil, from what I have seen. I just like characters who have some gray to them. He's complex to me in a book where a lot of characters are VERY flat to me.
Catherine - Jun 5, 2006 9:30 am (#2339 of 2969)
Edited Jun 5, 2006 10:31 am
When Hermione went off crying, it certainly was because Snape had not been sympathetic to her, but he wasn't he one who enlarged her teeth. We still haven't got one case here of Snape going past verbal abuse besides him pushing Harry after the pensieve scene, when he obviously lost his temper. He should not have, not the way he lectures Harry about control. But what else have we got besides that one instance?
I disagree with your assessment of the "teeth" episode. Snape was cruel about Hermione's teeth, not "unsympathetic." He set her up for public ridicule.
How about threatening Neville with poisoning Trevor? How about actually using Trevor as the test for Neville's potion?
How about having Neville and Harry do dententions sorting through slimy things without gloves?
How about performing the Avada Kedavra curse on Dumbeldore? Talk about performing illegal curses in front of students...Harry was there, under the cloak, and Draco was there as well.
I believe that verbal abuse (which is not strictness, nor the kind of "telling off" that McGonagall does) is as harmful as physical abuse. My opinion of that aside, Snape's actions descend into psychological abuse.
journeymom - Jun 5, 2006 11:58 am (#2340 of 2969)
Edited by Catherine Jun 5, 2006 1:31 pm
Wow, great discussion.
First, I'll reiterate that I'm a Snape fan. In the same way that I really like Hannibal Lecter in both the book and the movie. Lecter got inside my head and is incredibly charismatic. He is undeniably a fantastic character.
But in reference to Jo's expression of disappointment that women are attracted to Snape, just as I wouldn't want to actually spend much time with Hannibal Lecter (might be dangerous ), I wouldn't want to spend time with Snape. I certainly wouldn't marry a man like him. In fact I married the polar opposite; dh's personality is silly, funny, emotionally stable and he hasn't got a mean bone in his body. And he's not emotionally stunted, either, as Snape sort of seems to be. (But then, that's my adult woman appraisal. I don't think Jo's 13 y.o. readers care about that.) My point is that in the defense-of-Snape/defense-of-Marauders debate, it's clear to me at least that you can LOVE Snape and still think he's despicable.
In regard to Filch's detention files, I immediately decided this was simply Snape reminding Harry that James and Sirius were no angels. I'll have to go back and read that portion, to see if it truly emphasises that the Marauders got detention and Snape did NOT. But that's a good point, that Snape could easily make sure that Harry only saw the files he wanted him to see.
A small question; zapping flies, is it meaningful? Sure. It's a small demonstration of Snape's personality and abilities. And situation. I don't think we should make as much of it as Riddle hanging the rabbit. I really don't feel as bad for a fly on the windshield as I do for bunny roadkill. But it shows Snape's room had flies, yuck. It shows him bored and entertaining himself by killing flies. I don't care about the flies. But he's not entertaining himself in some obviously more wholesome way. And, he's he's bettering his wand skills.
I also wonder about the beginnings of the Marauder's dislike for Snape. Do we agree that James was the de facto leader of the group? It immediately bothered me that the ultimate explanation given for James' dislike of Snape is that James hated the dark arts. So what? What does that really have to do with Severus Snape? I'll condemn Snape for his actions, not his association with a title (Dark Arts).
One point made in James' favor that I'll keep is that this was during the 1st war with Voldemort and I don't have James' perspective as a wizard living under that deadly shadow. So I just can't know how scary it was and how disgusting it might be to learn that someone would choose to follow the dark side over the light.
I also agree Sirius was not speaking literally, but making a point when he said Snape started school knowing as many dark spells as half the 7th years. But you all have made some good points about Sirius. I've never thought much about him, I don't especially like him. But it's a good point that he overcame difficult odds coming from such a Dark home. That must have been very challenging. It IS a correlation to the choice that Snape made, I think, and also analogous to Harry's experience growing up with the Dursleys. Without knowing more about James' family, Sirius seems to be better justified being all righteously angry about 11 year old Snape's dark tendendcies.
Sirius says Snape gave as good as he got, and I believe it. His demonstrated abilities and personality make it believeable. I just wish we knew for sure who started the feud, and in what manner. A good portion of Book 7 could be dedicated to that story and I'd be very happy, but I know that won't happen.
My opinion, Snape is a mean, nasty guy. He's unfair, cruel and abusive to his students. The fact that Snape has never shown any remorse or inclination to make ammends is crucial to the theme of redemption. IF he's a good guy, then he HAS been attempting to make amends for his choice to take the prophecy to LV.
I removed a Forum unfriendly abbreviation and substituted the word "guy." Please do not use abbreviations if the spelled-out version would be unacceptable. Please remember that the Forum tries to remain friendly to members of all ages.--Catherine
haymoni - Jun 5, 2006 12:04 pm (#2341 of 2969)
Snape just has the best lines and yes, I am clouded by Alan Rickman, but so what???
No - I would not like to share a compartment on the Hogwarts Express with Snape - I'd pick Sirius every time.
But I can still enjoy reading about him.
I think it is like actors that like playing the bad guy. No, they don't want to BE the bad guy, but it's got to be a release to say everything that Snape says.
Jo did teach, after all. Maybe Snape lets her vent a bit. He says the things she wished she could have said, but was much too polite to do so.
wynnleaf - Jun 5, 2006 12:27 pm (#2342 of 2969)
Edited Jun 5, 2006 1:30 pm
Torill, there is a great deal of what you theorize of Snape in your last post that I agree with. I am actually not, as it may appear to some, trying to say that Snape wasn't strongly interested in the Dark Arts, or doesn't say hurtful things to his students.
However, I find it hard to believe that someone thoroughly seduced by the Dark Arts would make the huge change that Snape is apparently supposed to have made when he was only about 19 or 20 years old.
When Draco can't kill DD on the tower, we really only see that Draco finds that he can't kill someone face-to-face. We do not see him necessarily making some huge paradigm shift. I would find it difficult to believe, for instance, that he would suddenly be willing to risk his life for the side of Light. And we don't even have a lot of direct evidence that Draco spent much of time learning and practicing Dark Arts. Sure, he's willing to use Crucio, and buy Darkly cursed objects from Borgin and Burkes, but we aren't lead to believe he's studying up on becoming a Dark Arts expert.
Yet Snape apparently made a huge, dramatic shift. He goes from taking the Dark Mark and being a full-fledged DE, a spy for LV, and a person who it seems was studying the Dark Arts intently, to being willing to not only run to DD with the news that LV was targeting the Potters, but being willing to risk his life on a day-to-day basis to bring down LV. That is a very, very big shift. If Snape was really a Tom Riddle look-alike as a kid (personality and interests wise), I would find that unbelievable. The fact that he made the change he did, and was willing to so markedly risk his life for it, leads me to believe that it was never so thoroughly ingrained, even to the degree that DE beliefs are ingrained in Draco, much less Riddle.
I do not, for instance, think that Snape was into the blood purity thing, because he used "half-blood" in his name for himself. Riddle, on the other hand, hid his half-blood roots and developed a completely new name with a sort of vainglorious title.
Below is a bit of a personal confession and I do feel as though I take a risk admitting this.
The question of Snape's sarcastic and insulting comments to students leads many to believe that his entire personality must be shot through with cruelty. I tend to take this notion rather personally. I take it personally because I have had several people very close to me over the years who had extremely similar ways of talking to people. I never used to relate those people to Snape's comments, but since HBP, it dawned on me that if I were a fan fic writer (I'm not) I could probably put together long, long pages of Snape dialogue simply by using the spoken and written dialogue from the people I know. Once I realized that, I started to listen to these friends with a particular "ear" for how their comments would sound especially if they were written down. I actually found it got extremely funny as I'd think "this was such a wonderful line, but someone else would read this as being terrible." I began to realize that a great deal of what was said could be interpreted by someone who knew the person as a particularly caustic, gallows humour sort of joke, but if written down would seem utterly appalling. I knew that only those who really understood where those particular people were "coming from" would understand the intent of what was said, but that many other people -- complete strangers, or those predisposed to take what was said in a negative way, for instance -- would probably "hear" the comments in the same way those comments look when written down. Absolutely awful. I guess that's when I started to take Snape personally. I'd read back over dialogue in the books and think, "okay, how would this or that person I know have intended that remark?" And suddenly, Snape didn't seem nearly as intentionally cruel. Yes, there were still places where he seemed intentionally cruel , but not nearly as much as before. But on an even more personal level, I started "hearing" the words of friends through the "ears" of others who would probably think their words were indicative of being a terrible person. And yet I knew these people were in fact rather wonderful people in prickly, ascerbic, hard-to-deal with ways. And I started to get somewhat defensive about it all.
I've talked to a few other HP fans who have had good friendships or family relationships with people who are like this, and they too, often see Snape as this kind of person. I think for those that know and appreciate people who talk this way, it's not hard to see Snape's mode of talking from a very different vantage point. But there is no way that I could explain that or convince someone who had not already really known and enjoyed those types of people. If you're not the type of person to like someone who talks like that, I don't think you'd ever "read" any of Snape's comments as anything other than intentionally cruel.
It may be that Snape is intended by JKR to be completely and intentionally cruel in all of the remarks he makes to students. But the fact is that there are people who say many similar things who do not intend them cruelly.
By the way, I don't care for the way Rickman plays Snape and it is not the way he plays Snape that makes me "read" the character the way I do.
I might add, several of the people I've personally known who talked like that were teachers. However, they were teachers at the high-school and college level and tended to draw students who came to appreciate their personalities. I myself, for instance, mentioned on this thread really liking a teacher in college who was very, very Snape like in his style of speaking and dealing with students. Perhaps these people are not very good for younger students, but the one's I've known did quite well with older students who learned to interpret their remarks and also learned how to respond to them. I've sometimes wondered if the main reason the Slytherins like Snape, when Gryffindors absolutely don't, isn't just because of house rivalry, but also perhaps because they are more likely, through their personality types, to be able to understand him.
The thing of threatening Trevor, for instance. I never, ever would suspect Snape would actually hurt Trevor. I read that through my own filter of knowing people who would make a similar kinds of threat -- not as a joke, but as what they'd expect anyone to realize as an over-the-top kind of threat which basically means "take this very seriously," even though the threat itself is not actually serious. Honestly, I don't think I can explain this unless you already know and understand this style of talking.
Last, of the people I know who will talk like that, some tended toward bitterness and others are not bitter or resentful people at all. The underlying bitterness or lack thereof, does seem to make a big difference in the way that style of communicating comes across to others.
Okay, out with the dungbombs. I really can't explain or attempt to convince on this. But perhaps you guys will at least understand why I seem to care so much.
Catherine - Jun 5, 2006 12:46 pm (#2343 of 2969)
The thing of threatening Trevor, for instance. I never, ever would suspect Snape would actually hurt Trevor. I read that through my own filter of knowing people who would make a similar kinds of threat -- not as a joke, but as what they'd expect anyone to realize as an over-the-top kind of threat which basically means "take this very seriously," even though the threat itself is not actually serious. Honestly, I don't think I can explain this unless you already know and understand this style of talking.
The point I was making was not whether Snape intended to hurt Trevor but that the students believed he would. As a matter of fact, I don't think Snape would have been too fussed if Trevor had "croaked" during the test.
I am unsure if JKR intends for Snape's apparent cruelty to be read through a sympathetic filter by subsitituting friends' voices for Snape's voice. Also, I think that humor and sarcasm must be treated gently. For example, I am naturally quite a sarcastic person, and I have a child with an autistic spectrum disorder. She simply does not "get" sarcasm and many forms of verbal humor, and can be left feeling quite threatened and left out. I've had to conscously modify my behavior in order to accomodate her needs. Carelessness with words does wound people, even if they aren't "special" like my daughter. It's a hard learned lesson that I have taken with me to my classroom.
I do not think that Snape is merely careless with his sarcasm, however. I think he intends to prick, to hurt, to wound. I think he enjoys it. That's actually one reason that, as a character, he both fascinates and repels me.
journeymom - Jun 5, 2006 12:54 pm (#2344 of 2969)
Edited Jun 5, 2006 1:56 pm
I completely understand what you mean about Snape's style of communication, and agree, except where it applies to 11 y.o.'s and the like. An emotionally stable grown-up, even with an ascerbic wit, would eventually figure out that that style of speech hurts Neville more than it helps, and would quit it.
But your theory is supported by JKR's own sly wit, I think.
I think Snape definitely tends towards bitter and resentful.
winlia - Jun 5, 2006 2:18 pm (#2345 of 2969)
The question of Snape's sarcastic and insulting comments to students leads many to believe that his entire personality must be shot through with cruelty. I tend to take this notion rather personally. I take it personally because I have had several people very close to me over the years who had extremely similar ways of talking to people.
My eight-year-old son occasionally comes to me and asks if specific words are bad. (Usually, they're not.) I tell him that what you say and how you say it depends on your audience, and that what's considered offensive varies widely from person to person. I think I'd like your friends, wynnleaf. I doubt that Snape is quite as nice as they are, though. I don't think he means to devastate anyone, but most of the time (not always), he's being deliberately unkind.
I'm a huge fan of Dorothy Parker, the writer from the 20's. She was a bit mean (maybe more than a bit), a bit tragic, and extremely funny.
I'm comfortable with my understanding of Snape's remarks. To me, they reveal that he's somewhat nasty, and a bit jealous of the socially-adept kids. And I feel that I understand the some aspects of the pensive scene. It sets up the heightened tension between Harry and Snape, shows that Harry isn't completely innocent, and makes us (most of us) and Harry feel some sympathy for Snape. What I don't understand, and I'd love to hear the thoughts of the others on this thread, is the purpose that was served by showing Harry how cruel his father could be. I'm sure it was deliberate by JKR, but why? Just to drive Harry further from trusting Snape?
Magic Words - Jun 5, 2006 2:29 pm (#2346 of 2969)
Edited Jun 5, 2006 3:30 pm
I think it's meant to be an important step in Harry's development that has little or nothing to do with Snape. Harry's spent his whole life hearing how he's just like his father, and with the exception of Snape, everyone who says that means it as a compliment. So he's striven to be just like (how he perceives) James. But at some point, when he's old enough, he has to learn that it's better to be your own person than to let someone else dictate who you are, even if the someone else is a parent.
Edit: It also does have some effect on how we view Snape, because until then we've assumed he was lying about James out of jealousy, but now he's been somewhat vindicated.
winlia - Jun 5, 2006 2:42 pm (#2347 of 2969)
Edited Jun 5, 2006 3:43 pm
Let's face it, when you get out into the world, no one cares about your self esteem but you. I tell all of my kids that, and I am a mother of many. ---Die Zimtzicke
I heartily agree. The trend is to be very gentle and emphathetic when dealing with kids in the lower grades (epitomized by giving everyone on the team a trophy), and while it feels good now to see my children being cherished by their teachers and coaches, I suspect they are in for a rude awakening as they approach adulthood.
One component of a happy life is not hurting others, but equally important is not being overly-sensitive.
journeymom - Jun 5, 2006 3:05 pm (#2348 of 2969)
Edited Jun 5, 2006 4:06 pm
"The trend is to be very gentle and emphathetic when dealing with kids in the lower grades (epitomize by giving everyone on the team a trophy), and while it feels good now to see my children being cherished by their teachers and coaches, I suspect they are in for a rude awakening as they approach adulthood. "
Off topic a bit here, but I have to comment: I'm probably naive but isn't it possible that after several years of 'attachment parenting', gentle discipline, consciousness raising, positive behavior modification and any number of other childhood behavior theories that have been implemented by parents and teachers in the past 50 years, some of this might have actually *worked* on the last couple of generations? I know it's easy to make fun of psych theories as applied to raising and teaching children. But if the last generation was raised by thoughtful parents and teachers who cherished them and rewarded them for their efforts (if not their achievements) then perhaps when they become adults, and become bosses (and teachers) they will treat their underlings better than previous generations did. I mean, that's supposed to be the whole point of raising our children gently and with dignity. There has to be a better way. If I discover that my child is being treated cruelly by an adult I will no doubt tell her that's life and to expect more of it, but I'll also look into this adult's actions and see if follow up on my part is necessary.
And I disagree that they'll be in for rude awakening. Or, really, so what if they are? If we've done our jobs right, our adult children will be emotionally strengthened by a positive childhood, and therefore able to handle rude awakenings with grace.
Yes, I'm one of those who thinks that if Severus Snape had been nursed longer and held more and had more hugs he wouldn't have turned to The Dark Side. If only his father told him he loved him!
Catherine - Jun 5, 2006 3:08 pm (#2349 of 2969)
One component of a happy life is not hurting others, but equally important is not being overly-sensitive.--Winlia
I so totally agree. I try to teach this.
I do not think, however, that Harry, Ron, Hermione, or Neville could be "overly-sensitive" given Snape's actions.
I do not nitpick, for example, when Snape ridicules Hermione for being a know-it-all. The teeth thing, though, that was too much.
Snape's attitude toward Neville is almost brutal, and I can't see what Neville has done to deserve it. I still wonder if Snape could have been behind the attack on the Longbottoms (NO, there is no canon evidence there, I simply wonder) or prevented it.
Ron--well, he's Bill's brother (Bill didn't like Snape) and he's pureblood and from a blood traitor family. I still can't imagine what Ron really did to Snape to elicit a comment about Ron's appparating (which, techinically, is none of Snape's business, is it?)
Harry--in my opinion, is still on the "plus side" of the equation. It seems as though Harry came to Hogwarts on the "debit" side, due to his father, although this is so immature to me.
winlia - Jun 5, 2006 3:32 pm (#2350 of 2969)
Edited Jun 5, 2006 5:03 pm
journeymom
I do my best to be kind, and I think most who know me well would consider me to be so (Lex members may disagree
), but I have no illusions that everyone else will be kind to me. (I haven't been proven wrong either.) I don't think the world has changed all that much in the last 40 years, not in that regard. For one thing, some kids are still as cruel to each other as they were in my day. Edit
And I disagree that they'll be in for rude awakening. Or, really, so what if they are? ---journeymom
If they are, they may well be living in my basement when they're 35.
Not that they won't be welcome, of course... Pamzter - Jun 5, 2006 3:33 pm (#2351 of 2969)
Okay, here's something bizarre. I was dreaming last night, absolutely nothing to do with HP. However at the very end of the dream I walked by a table and overheard a woman telling her friend, "Well, you know, Snape is married of course." I woke up and thought, "That's stupid. He is not."
But I've been thinking about it all day. JK said that we're going to find out some of the Hogwarts teachers are/have been married and why we haven't heard about it before. Well, who cares if Flitwick or Sprout is married and what could it add to the story? However, if Snape has been married . . . JK also said she was surprised that someone asked if Snape had ever been loved because of something that is going to be revealed later . . . And beyond committing an unbreakable vow with Dumbledore, a wife would make DD's trust in Snape more undertandable.
Now, I actually don't really believe it myself, but it's an interesting thought. It's also interesting to try to think of evidence for something you don't agree with.
Plus, just in case it does happen, I wanted to have evidence (after I scraped myself up off the ground from disbelief).
Any comments?
haymoni - Jun 5, 2006 3:43 pm (#2352 of 2969)
Pamzter - those of us who have been posting awhile on the Forum know exactly to whom Snape is married - Gina Snape!!! She won't let you forget it either!!
I don't think Snape has been married.
I don't know why - I have no concrete, canon-based reason.
It just doesn't SEEM right.
Snape is nasy and snide, but who is going to correct him? Should Harry run to Dumbledore every time Snape says something? I'm wondering if teachers in English boarding schools aren't a bit more like Snape.
As for the prizes all around, I think it's fine for stuff like T-ball, where you don't really keep score, but eventually everyone figures out who is best at baseball.
Someday, you aren't going to get the job, or get the promotion, or get the loan, or get the girl, or get the healthy kid. If you've taught your children that they are more than just an athlete or an artist or a scholar or "the nice kid", they'll be fine.
Snape was definitely lacking something - perhaps it was his father or maybe it was just a shower.
Catherine - Jun 5, 2006 5:59 pm (#2353 of 2969)
Snape was definitely lacking something - perhaps it was his father or maybe it was just a shower.--Haymoni
This is WRONG, but...
ROFL...ROFL.....
OKay...back to what Snape is lacking. Is it compassion...heart....? He seems to berate Harry for showing emotions that betray longing, jealousy, or fear.
Coincidence?
timrew - Jun 5, 2006 6:03 pm (#2354 of 2969)
You wanna know what Snape is lacking? Just follow your nose, because it's definitely soap or shampoo..................
And he wears greying y-fronts!
wynnleaf - Jun 5, 2006 6:13 pm (#2355 of 2969)
Edited Jun 5, 2006 7:15 pm
Over on the yahoo HP for adults group, there was a conversation about a week or so ago where a long time teacher at a British boarding school (complete with houses), said that a number of the teachers there were sort of like Snape. In fact, she said that she was more that way herself. Further, according to this lady, she felt that schools would tend to hold onto a teacher whose students had high percentages of good scores (Snape said he had a very high OWL pass rate for his students), and that would be considered a lot more important than their style of dealing with students.
Of course, I have no idea if that's really true, but it's just what one person said.
I had an interesting conversation with my 13 yr old son this evening. Three of my kids when in 5th grade had a teacher that they all liked. But for each kid, I really worried at first how they'ed get along with the teacher. I even requested that my 10 year old daughter not be in this teacher's homeroom, because I thought she might be sort of traumatized by him. Instead, she spent all year wishing she was in his homeroom. I asked my son to refresh my memory about this male teacher. He is very easily angered and yells at the students often. My daughter who just left 5th grade was convinced that if angered enough he would throw a kid out the 2nd floor window - he certainly said he would. I understand he told them that he had done that before. He'd often use the best kids in the class as examples of terrible behavior (facetiously evidently, but as though it was true). All of my children said he was much more strict about work and classroom behavior and his punishments a lot more quickly forthcoming than other teachers. My son said when he got angry at you he made you feel terrible. My son told me that with one particularly badly behaved kid, the teacher actually grabbed the child by the arms and held up against the wall (yes, I know, they aren't supposed to do that!). Yet all my kids developed much stronger time management skills under this teacher. They all showed a strong improvement in work with this teacher. And the strangest of all, they all really, really liked this teacher, more than almost any other.
I asked my son which kids tended to dislike this teacher and he replied that the kids who misbehaved the most were the only ones who disliked him. My son, by the way, is definitely no angel and got his share of being yelled at from that teacher. I asked my son why he liked this teacher so much. It apparently was because they loved hearing whatever he'd say next. My son said you could learn great lines from him.
I've known this guy as a coach and as a parent. He's a very tough and strict coach and goes overboard (I think) in not wanting to coddle a child. While he's perhaps a strict parent, he's actually very gentle with his little children -- one of my girls used to babysit for them or just go over to visit and play with their toddlers.
Now am I saying Snape is like this? No, no, no! But I am trying to say that sometimes behavior that we think is going to be really bad for kids is actually not really as bad as we'd assume. Kind, encouraging teaching styles are great for kids. But some teachers can be completely different, and not kind at all, but instead rather scary for kids, and yet achieve great results and even be liked by students.
sere35 - Jun 5, 2006 6:35 pm (#2356 of 2969)
Edited Jun 5, 2006 7:40 pm
If I had kids I would not mind them having a teacher like Snape. As long as the teacher would do their best to convey the information I am fine with it. If my child was 11 years or older and as long as the teachers were not physically abusive; I would tell them to suck it up and that life is like that, and to get use to it. Wynnleaf I have heard that the boarding schools are like that to. Another thing teachers are not their to coddle the kids, hold their hands and praise them for every little thing, they are their to convey the information.
Hollywand - Jun 5, 2006 7:13 pm (#2357 of 2969)
Well, this seems to me to be growing antecedotal rather than a discussion of the Rowling text. Our school has a very harsh instructor who yells at the students and calls them idiots, and our students don't love her at all. They talk constantly about instructor's effective teaching styles, and can recognize it when someone is abusive and bad at delivering information. Our school is moving to take the teacher out of her teaching position.
Rowling also provides Hagrid, Dumbledore and McGonnagall, which I'm sure are intended a much more positive mentor contrasts to Severus Snape, as well as Sirius and Lupin.
haymoni - Jun 5, 2006 7:23 pm (#2358 of 2969)
When filming GOF, they said it was much more "British" and that Hogwarts was much more like a British boarding school.
I look at MadEye's performance in the classroom - specifically throwing the chalk at Seamus - as well as Snape's physical performance during study hall.
If "more British" means more physical or scary or demanding, then perhaps the characterization of Snape is not that far off.
Hollywand - Jun 5, 2006 10:38 pm (#2359 of 2969)
I'm not sure that's an accurate account of the contemporary British school system. If you follow the news in the UK, they are moving toward much more concern for students safety---I mean, Rowling herself is leading the way on humane treatment of children.
Saracene - Jun 6, 2006 3:34 am (#2360 of 2969)
Regarding Snape's feud with James, I tend to go by Sirius' comment that Snape and James loathed each other from the moment they met. I imagine a sort of instant antipathy that's almost on a molecular level or something; hate on first sight, so to speak. I certainly can't imagine that, in the entire school, Snape was the -only- student interested in Dark Arts.
I don't remember any indication though that -Sirius- was feeling righteous indignation about Snape's interest in Dark Arts.
I'm very sceptical about the idea that Snape "gave as good as he got". The way I see it, the power balance in their feud simply could not be equal because of the different positions Snape and James held in the school hierarchy.
wynnleaf - Jun 6, 2006 5:19 am (#2361 of 2969)
I'm very sceptical about the idea that Snape "gave as good as he got". The way I see it, the power balance in their feud simply could not be equal because of the different positions Snape and James held in the school hierarchy.
Not to mention that it appears that at least James and Sirius did work together. Even the detentions, which didn't necessarily have anything to do with Snape, showed them into most mischief in pairs or groups. Neither Lupin or Sirius ever mention Snape and a friend joining in opposing the Maruaders. I didn't get the impression from the pensieve scene that Snape had a greater ability at throwing hexes, jinxes, and curses than James and Sirius. So two, three or four against one doesn't look like he could "give as good as he got."
Pinky Prime - Jun 6, 2006 9:47 am (#2362 of 2969)
Edited Jun 6, 2006 10:59 am
I posted this on another thread but I think it applies here...
Was Snape using Legitimacy on Trelawney the whole time and getting buzz sounds? Who knows for sure what assignment LV had him on. It may very well be to secure the prophesy from Trelawney by other means. Even she can't remember what happens in her trance state! I surely hope that Harry will figure out why Snape was at Hogwarts in the first place! Legilimency or not I think Harry can sense evil. That may well be a latent ability. It is my opinion that Harry would have easily made it as a Dark Wizard and that may be why the Sectumsempra spell worked so well against Malfoy. Due to his connection to LV.
DD knew this! His choices and not ability however, may manifest from his conscience for not doing permanent damage to people. That may be the reason his Crutiatus curse was so weak against Bella and Snape.
Die Zimtzicke - Jun 6, 2006 8:20 pm (#2363 of 2969)
Has anyone ever considered that maybe teaching just isn't Snape's thing? Snape possibly is the way he is, at least partly, because he just doesn't really want to teach. I can see him wanting to do research, and be left alone with his work, and not having to deal with a bunch of low-level talent kids. Unluckily for him, he has to be at Hogwarts teaching, either because Voldemort wanted him there, or Dumbledore wanted him there, or both. Like Trelawny, whom I consider an abysmal teacher, he has to be held in place for whatever reason. She was most likely there for her protection. Him, I don't know, but I don't think either of them is there for their talent at teaching. For that matter, neither is Binns, who redefines the word tenure, and not in a good way.
Maybe Snape just hated his situation, but was trapped in it. Just because you're good at something doesn't mean you CAN teach it, or SHOULD teach it or even WANT to teach it.
journeymom - Jun 6, 2006 10:17 pm (#2364 of 2969)
Hm, yes, you know how they say those can't do, teach instead. Perhaps Snape has been put in the untenable situation of being brilliant at what he does but being forced to teach anyway.
Ann - Jun 7, 2006 6:05 am (#2365 of 2969)
Edited Jun 7, 2006 7:28 am
I think one perspective that's being left out of this discussion is the fact the JKR clearly is manipulating our perspectives about Snape. She wants us to believe that he's horrible and then that he's redeemable, and then later that, nope, we were wrong, he's horrible. Remember back when Book 3 came out, she was hinting that there's more to Snape than meets the eye, because after his ranting attacks on Harry, readers were too inclined to dismiss him entirely. After he is clearly shown as being Dumbledore's left hand man (McGonagall being his right) in Book 4, however, readers were cutting him too much slack, so she had him being even more nasty (particularly to Sirius) in Book 5, although in Books 5 and 6, she balances all the nastiness with Dumbledore's trust--and then with Snape's murder of Dumbledore, she makes us question whether that trust is a mistake. It's quite clear what she wants us to believe at the end of Book 6 (which tends to make me think that Book 7 will prove just the opposite view).
JKR clearly doesn't see Snape as a nice man (she says she's based him partly on a nasty teacher of her own). And, of course, he did join the Death Eaters. So he's not likely, really, to be the sensitive, misunderstood nice guy one sees in some fan fiction. On the other hand, just as with the conversation between Snape and Quirrell in the forest in Book 1, She's clearly showing us a skewed picture because she's trying to direct our belief in such a way that when we see the whole picture we'll say, 'oh, yes, well, that was there all the time, but I didn't notice it.'
In Book 4, for example, she has Sirius tell Harry: "Snape’s always been fascinated by the Dark Arts, he was famous for it at school." "Fascinated by" may mean simply intrigued. He says to Narcissa that DADA was his best subject. Perhaps better than Sirius & James, Sirius is holding this against him? (He taunts him in the Pensieve incident saying that his greasy nose will make the answers unreadable--not that the answers would be wrong.) "Snape knew more curses when he arrived at school than half the kids in the seventh year and he was part of a gang of Slytherins who nearly all turned out to be Death Eaters." The first seems unlikely, given his family (Muggle father, mother who married a Muggle), but perhaps he had some Dark, Black-like cousins who thought it was amusing to teach Dark magic to an eleven-year-old. The "gang of Slytherins" comment, which says he was friends with Avery, Wilkes, Rosier, and the Lestranges, is clearly odd, since at least Bellatrix was out of school by the time he arrived and they are clearly NOT friends in HBP. So it seems likely that Sirius's perceptions are not entirely correct.
The Pensive incident in OotP cuts a lot of different ways. Yes, Snape probably used a Dark curse that cuts James (just as Harry does, when he's attacked by Draco, though I've never thought it was the Sectumsempra, since James does not seem to be bleeding badly nor worrying about scars). And he calls Lily a Mudblood (but I am convinced that this is why it's his worst memory--because he's goaded by shame into attacking her). On the other hand, James and Sirius are shown to be ganging up on him, two to one, attacking without provocation and not even bothering to justify it. But what's probably the most cruel is that they use his unpopularity to make him even a greater object of scorn and derision, for the lowest of motives (showing off, to girls and each other). Harry is right to be angry and disgusted with them all in this scene. And adult Sirius says only that Snape was "up to his eyeballs in the Dark Arts" (not that he used them, mind you--just as Sirius said earlier that he was "fascinated" by them). And that he's jealous of James's popularity.
Hired as a teacher at 22, Snape was only 4 years out of Hogwarts himself. He clearly still felt very closely tied and loyal to his house, of which he was made Head. McGonagall, by contrast, is less partial, since she was out of school for many, many years before returning. To differentiate himself from his students and maintain discipline in a subject that can be extremely dangerous, he doubtless adopted the scary persona we see. He is, by this time, Dumbledore's spy (since he turned spy "before Voldemort's downfall"). By this time, also, he has presumably learned some self control; he's still an emotional, violent man, with a penchant for the Dark, but his spite is limited to words (his only physical attacks--against Sirius at Grimmauld Place and against Harry after the Pensieve incident--occur under fairly extreme provocation), and in the duel with Harry at the end of HBP he limits himself to blocking and disarming Harry. This is not to say that people can't be terribly hurt by words; but words are certainly superior to blows, if you're going to lose control. And what we see him doing puts him firmly in the "protect the students" camp--possibly even including his murder of Dumbledore.
So, no, he's not a nice man. But he's not as evil as she wants us to think he is, either.
(Sorry to be so long-winded.)
Hollywand - Jun 7, 2006 6:54 am (#2366 of 2969)
An wonderful, articulate post Ann. I agree with your well advanced arguments. I will look forward to seeing if the "Worst Memory" title is identified. You raise an interesting motive for Snape's distate for the memory. Hmmm.
TomProffitt - Jun 7, 2006 8:37 am (#2367 of 2969)
Severus Snape is not in the habit of liking and respecting people. Not only did the Marauders bully him, I imagine that the "Gang of Slytherins" bullied him as well. Every teenager, even the introverted ones, desperately want to fit in somewhere, somehow.
James and Sirius enjoyed bullying Severus. Severus's worst memory is one of total humiliation at the hands of the supposed good guys. Is this his worst memory not because he was humiliated, but because it was the incident that made him choose to hang with future Death Eaters? Is that why Severus truly hates James & Sirius? Not because they tried to have him attacked by a werewolf, but because Severus would choose the Death Eaters over the Order of Phoenix as a result of this incident.
Now, obviously, Severus is responsible for his own choices and actions. Severus, I think, craves recognition and fame. He wants to be a hero, he is not one to wait on the sidelines. He doesn't just hate Harry for his resemblance to his father, but because he is the Wizarding World's hero with out having done anything other than be loved by his mum.
I think it shallow that concern for Lily alone would be Severus's motivaton. We have really seen no evidence along those lines, but we have seen plenty of Snape belittling Harry's accomplishments and extolling his own. He is torturing himself because he wants to see Harry fail and knows he can't allow it to happen.
I hope this makes sense, I hadn't really thought it out before hand.
haymoni - Jun 7, 2006 8:50 am (#2368 of 2969)
The "Lucius's lapdog" comment made me think that Severus may not have been an ubercool Slytherin.
TomProffitt - Jun 7, 2006 9:00 am (#2369 of 2969)
"... Severus may not have been an ubercool Slytherin." --- haymoni
I doubt that the Slytherins treated Severus much better than James & Sirius did. I see him as being forced to be someone else's Crabbe or Goyle. I'm sure he hated it, but saw it as better than being caught on his own by the Marauders again. Dumbledore is probably the only person who has treated him with respect, at least prior to him coming to Hogwarts. And that's probably why he stayed, regardless of what he told Narcissa & Belatrix, the Hogwarts Staff were the first people to treat him with respect and as an equal.
wynnleaf - Jun 7, 2006 9:05 am (#2370 of 2969)
Ann,
Thank you for a well thought out, balanced post!
With most of the characters, whatever JKR tells us about the character can generally be considered simply expanded or deeper insight into the character. But with Snape, JKR is actively trying to pull us back and forth in our opinion of him, rather than trying to give us a full or complete view of his motivations, personality, etc.
With Lupin, for instance, we may debate his strengths and weaknesses, but overall, we know JKR is presenting us with actions, words, events that help us see the character more clearly. That's true with most of the characters. But with Snape, she's trying to keep us confused.
That alone makes it much more difficult for understand him. And of course, that's exactly what she wants.
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TomProffitt - Jun 7, 2006 9:46 am (#2371 of 2969)
"But with Snape, she's trying to keep us confused." --- wynnleaf
We probably have a more clear picture of Tom Riddle than we do of any other character, excepting Harry himself.
I think it was very obtuse of Dumbledore to keep his reasons for trusting Severus, so close to his chest. It's poor leadership to be saying "Trust him, because I said so."
It may have hurt Severus's self-esteem to have to 'fess up in front of the Order, but that will preferable to getting wrongly slain for being a bad guy in Book 7.
All I can think of to justify Severus & Dumbledore being so closed mouth about this would be suspision of another traitor in their midst.
haymoni - Jun 7, 2006 10:59 am (#2372 of 2969)
I think Severus may have been more like Peter. It seems as though James & Sirius merely tolerated his presence. I don't think Severus would have been as grovelly, though.
Solitaire - Jun 7, 2006 4:12 pm (#2373 of 2969)
Is that why Severus truly hates James & Sirius? Not because they tried to have him attacked by a werewolf, but because Severus would choose the Death Eaters over the Order of Phoenix as a result of this incident
It would seem pretty lame, even for Snape, to blame someone else for taking a step as dramatic as joining the DEs. He would never "grant" that much power to anyone. I believe it was a succession of incidents over the course of his young life that probably led him to make such a choice ... probably because he believed it would afford him a chance to get even with anyone against whom he had a grudge.
Maybe Snape just hated his situation, but was trapped in it. Just because you're good at something doesn't mean you CAN teach it, or SHOULD teach it or even WANT to teach it.
Die Zimtzicke, this is absolutely correct. For four years I taught with a young woman who was an extremely gifted mathematician. Alas, she was NOT gifted as a teacher, and she made her students' lives miserable. I think you are quite correct to say teaching just isn't Snape's thing. It is obvious from his behavior and comments that he really does not like kids.
I'm sure that Slughorn is no more gifted than Snape (possibly less so) as a Potions Master ... but he is a far more effective teacher (for Harry, at least), because he helps his students believe that they can succeed. He seems capable of rewarding the good students without completely demeaning and debilitating those who are less successful--something Snape seems unable to do.
I, too, think Snape may have been to the Slytherins as Peter was to the Marauders. The difference, I suspect, is that Snape was a good student. (I have always suspected that he was the very "know-it-all" he accused Hermione of being.) If he was as good at Dark Arts as Sirius said, then perhaps he saw that as a way to gain entrée into the "ruling ranks" of Slytherins. JM2K ...
Solitaire
TomProffitt - Jun 7, 2006 4:29 pm (#2374 of 2969)
"I, too, think Snape may have been to the Slytherins as Peter was to the Marauders." --- Solitaire
This is precisely what I was trying to say, Soli. There are likely a host of incorrect ideas in my post, it was almost "brainstorming" when I wrote it.
I imagine that Severus's Slytherin "friends" were significantly more cruel to him than James & Sirius were to Peter, but I'm sure the cruelty was there for all to see. Peter was, I imagine, the kind of kid that would accept the cruel jokes and sarcasm, laughing with his friends, but feeling the hurt inside. The Marauders probably tried to convince themselves they weren't too cruel to Peter, but I expect they were and that they knew it.
And Severus endured worse from his Slytherin friends. Later, he would endure much worse from the Death Eaters. I expect he believed he was gaining stature and respect, and later learned this was not, so.
I think Snape probably did break down in genuine remorse in front of Dumbledore. The question is not, for me at least, did Snape repent? But, did he have the courage to switch loyalties and stay switched?
wynnleaf - Jun 7, 2006 5:23 pm (#2375 of 2969)
Edited Jun 7, 2006 6:29 pm
It would seem pretty lame, even for Snape, to blame someone else for taking a step as dramatic as joining the DEs. He would never "grant" that much power to anyone. I believe it was a succession of incidents over the course of his young life that probably led him to make such a choice ..
Solitaire, I very much agree with this comment. Particularly that Snape wouldn't "grant that much power to anyone." Not that it didn't influence him (building up resentment, bitterness, etc.), but I don't think he'd ever consciously consider anyone as driving him to LV.
Actually, Solitaire, I agree with pretty much that entire post. I wonder if Snape was forced (not coerced, but forced by circumstances) to stay at Hogwarts. After all, the MOM let him off even knowing he was a DE, because DD vouched for him as a spy. Plus, DD knew that Snape's value to LV -- when LV finally came back -- would probably be tied to how close Snape was to DD. In other words, if Snape had little value to LV, he'd be at a lot more risk to get killed as the one LV thought "would never return." But as even Snape said at Spinner's End, being able to give LV a lot of reports about DD and Hogwarts helped save his life when LV came back.
However, even if Snape didn't ever want to teach and despite Snape being mean to students, he does achieve very high results -- at least if we're to believe his own comment to his class that he had a very high OWL pass rate. So apparently, students were learning under Snape. Even Harry got an E, and he got picked on more than anyone other than Neville.
As regards how other Slytherins likely treated Snape.... I don't think they treated him quite like the Marauder's treated Peter -- well, maybe sort of. I think at some point Snape really was friends with Lucius. Narcissa uses that friendship as one of her reasons for why Snape should help Draco. And Draco, prior to HBP, acted like he respected Snape. So I don't think the Lucius and Snape friendship was anything like James and Sirius with Peter. I tend to think (guess) that Lucius probably sort of mentored Snape when they were younger -- he was 6 years older after all. I'd think there might have been a bit of hero worship early on, when that age difference seemed pretty big.
However, we don't really see a lot of evidence of friendship between Snape and any other Slytherins besides the Malfoys. Bellatrix seems to have a certain contempt for him. The way she refers to she and Narcissa as "the first of our kind" to visit Spinners End, makes me think she sees the difference in her pureblood and Snape half-blood quite acutely.
I think of Snape's personality type as not so much extremely shy as extremely introverted. (Would extremely shy people make good spies?) If you think of him entering Slytherin as a known half-blood, poor (used textbooks remember), maybe an accent that made a class difference obvious and add that to a very introverted temperament, and I think you'd get a kid that didn't have a lot of friends and didn't try to make them either.
Solitaire - Jun 7, 2006 7:03 pm (#2376 of 2969)
Wynnleaf, I do believe Snape was at Hogwarts out of necessity, just as Trelawney was. The position was certainly ideal for a double agent, wasn't it? If Voldemort indeed did order him to Hogwarts, why not stay? If Dumbledore felt it would keep him safe, well ... how silly to leave a place of relative safety, where both "masters" wanted him to be!
Regarding Snape's position within the Slytherins ... once he joined the DEs, it might have been different than it was when he was a mere student. I sometimes wonder how many Slytherins actually knew of Snape's Muggle ancestry. While it would not be something he would trumpet around, it certainly puts him in the same boat with Voldemort, doesn't it? I wonder how many DEs knew (or know yet) of Voldemort's Muggle father? Wormtail knows ... but has he told anyone?
I agree with your speculation that Lucius was probably a mentor to Snape. It would really make perfect sense, if we see Snape as a very talented kid who was drawn to the Dark Arts. Naturally Lucius would want to bring such a gem into the DEs as one whose talents could benefit them. Snape's comments to Bella regarding special and direct meetings and assignments with Voldemort would seem to indicate that he was in the "inner circle" of the DEs.
I agree, too, that Narcissa seems to consider Snape a real friend to Lucius and the family. She seems to put far more faith and trust in Snape than she does in her own sister. If Lucius was Snape's mentor, it would make sense that she would feel Snape would help her.
In the graveyard, Voldemort called Lucius "slippery"; but I think Snape is far more so. Nearly everything he has done, as we have seen, can be interpreted in more than one way. Snape's explanations to Bella illustrate this clearly. In fact, I almost think that one point of "Spinner's End" was to show us once again how mercurial Snape is and how ambiguous his loyalties appear. JM2K ...
Solitaire
Ann - Jun 7, 2006 7:45 pm (#2377 of 2969)
Edited Jun 7, 2006 8:48 pm
I think the point of the Spinners End chapter was to clarify Snape's position as a double agent (remember, before HBP, a lot of people thought he was just hanging out with Lucius and other Death Eaters, but not actually meeting with Voldemort) and, more importantly, to delude us into thinking that he was really the evil, calculating Death Eater git he pretends to be in that chapter. I really don't think JKR wanted us to see Snape in that chapter to be ambiguous at all--I think she wanted us to see him as purely evil, a loyal Death Eater. I know a lot of people who found that chapter shocking, because they felt it confirmed that Snape had really been in Voldemort's camp all along, an interpretation that they thought was confirmed by his murder of Dumbledore at the end.
Not everyone who reads the books (it's very safe to say) analyzes them with the thoroughness of people on this Forum. When I pointed out to some of my friends the twitch of Snape's hand during the Vow, the possible significance of the Forbidden Forest conversation Hagrid overhears, and the similarity of Snape's situation on the Tower to Harry's situation in the Cave, they were amazed. It is on the basis of those hints (as well as the overall arc of the books) that assures me that Snape will turn out to be working for the Order throughout Book 7. It's amazing, really, that JKR manages as well as she does, given the wide range of attention that her readers are paying her work. Yet, it can be enjoyed on many, many different levels.
Solitaire - Jun 8, 2006 9:49 am (#2378 of 2969)
delude us into thinking that he was really the evil, calculating Death Eater git he pretends to be in that chapter.
Well, maybe she was deluding us and maybe she wasn't. As for wanting us to see Snape as purely evil ... if that was her aim, she was not too successful, was she? Snape's "performance" in Spinner's End and his AK-ing of Dumbledore only served to make many people even more convinced of his innocence!
Since Jo is familiar with the Forum--she has obviously checked it out if she gave it an award--I think she does realize she has a broad base of readers who truly do dissect her characters and plot devices to pieces. I do not think she believes her true Snape fans gullible enough to simply switch allegiances from that one scene. I believe Jo understands and has far more respect for her readers than that. In my opinion, the Spinner's End chapter was her personal Confundus Charm, an attempt to further muddy the waters regarding Snape's true loyalties. JM2K, of course ... perhaps I am giving her more credit than she deserves.
Solitaire
SilverMoonLady - Jun 8, 2006 12:59 pm (#2379 of 2969)
It seems to me, when taking a close look at Snape, that it is probably important to differentiate between his personal dislikes/hatreds and his moral allegiences to Dumbledore or Voldemort or himself. Those things affect each other in some ways, for example in coloring his relationship with Harry, but I do not think it is impossible or even improbable for Snape to have deeply negative feelings about Harry (because of either past or present), and yet still be entirely loyal to Dumbledore. One can cordially despise one's allies.
This fact definitely makes me wary of using any of the things that happen between Snape & Harry, or Snape & Sirius or even Lupin, in the context of the larger Good vs Bad war. It's personal.
Just my humble thoughts..
PS: much fun reading all of this lovely debate; I love the Lex Forum!
wynnleaf - Jun 8, 2006 1:18 pm (#2380 of 2969)
Edited Jun 8, 2006 2:21 pm
I have been wondering about the options of 1. Snape on the good side, 2. Snape on the bad side and 3. Snape out for himself. The other night I was watching POA (admittedly "off" from canon in numerous places), and began to wonder how the various options for Snape fit into his actions at the end of POA.
After considering it, I don't feel the actions of Snape at the end of POA (not the film alterations, but the actual book), are indicative of someone who is playing both sides and basically working for himself.
At the end of POA, when Snape runs from Lupin's office to the Whomping Willow, he knew that he was going alone to face Sirius -- thought to be a possibly insane murderer of 13 -- and Lupin who hadn't taken his Wolfsbane potion and was about to transform. Yet Snape goes anyway. Of course, a "good" Snape might be going to help the children. A "bad" Snape might be going to take advantage of an opportunity to do away with both Sirius and Lupin. And a "playing both sides" Snape might be doing the same, since he hated Sirius.
But actually, it makes almost no sense for Snape to put his life at such great risk from both Sirius and especially Lupin, solely to take an opportunity to capture or kill a hated school-time rival. The degree of risk that Snape willingly takes on can only be explained by his seeing that the "benefit" of his action was equal to or outweighed the risk of his own life. And what could be worth the substantial risk to his life? I can't see a "for self only" Snape considering that the capture of Sirius was worth the risk of his own life at the teeth and claws of a werewolf. Nor can I see why a "working for Voldemort" Snape would consider it worth that risk either. The only thing that I can see that could be considered worth the risk Snape took, would be if Snape was on the good side and was attempting to save the lives of three others (the children).
I suppose that one might feel that Snape hated Sirius to such a degree that he'd risk his own life at the teeth of a werewolf in order to get Sirius, but I just don't think that's the sort of action a self-serving person would take. After all, Snape knew for certain that Lupin was about to change. The risk was huge that he'd be dealing with a werewolf. I can't see a self-serving person taking such a risk solely to get at Sirius.
Of course, there's always the other option that Snape was faithful to the good side through POA or GOF -- even to the extent of being willing to risk his life at the end of POA -- but then either switched sides or became "out for himself," after GOF. Only thing is, the willingness to risk his life at the end of POA just doesn't seem to me to fit with someone who would switch sides. Why switch sides or suddenly become "out for himself" after all? Self-preservation is all I could think of. But if so, why wasn't self-preservation as important at the end of POA?
SilverMoonLady - Jun 8, 2006 2:31 pm (#2381 of 2969)
Well, here's my biggest reservation on speculating why Snape went to the Whomping Willow that night in PoA: as I understand it, the Map doesn't show the Shrieking Shack, only the passage heading away from the Whomping Willow. I base this on two things: Harry says he doesn't know where the passage goes but has a good idea; Snape likewise says he saw Lupin in the passage heading off the map. I don't have the book with me, so I may be wrong.
If I am correct, then there is no way for Snape to *know* that Sirius or HRH are in the Shack. He might well suspect that Sirius was down there, as he has suspected Lupin all along of aiding him into the school. (Makes you wonder why Snape never bothered to make a stink about the passage himself, since he knew it was there... But then neither did Dumbledore...)
And if his concern was for Lupin - motivated by duty more than any fondness I'm sure we all agree - then why didn't he take Wolfsbane with him? What would he have done had Lupin gone 'were' in his presence?
Why *did* Snape head off after someone who was a short time away from becoming very dangerous to be near to?
For that reason, and some others, I tend to view Snape's actions *in the Shrieking Shack* as motivated by purely personal reasons.
JM2K, as y'all like to say:))
winlia - Jun 8, 2006 3:01 pm (#2382 of 2969)
Snape didn't know that the kids would disarm him when he went to the shack. Maybe a werewolf isn't such a big threat to a wizard with a wand?
SilverMoonLady - Jun 8, 2006 3:11 pm (#2383 of 2969)
Maybe a werewolf isn't such a big threat to a wizard with a wand?
That's entirely possible, especially one as good at DADA as Snape. Still makes me wonder what his intentions were...
Oh, and lest I be misclassed as a Snape-basher, I'm not. I find him fascinating and complex, and very very human in his imperfections.
TomProffitt - Jun 8, 2006 3:18 pm (#2384 of 2969)
Edited Jun 8, 2006 4:23 pm
Part of the confusion over Snape's loyalties at the end of PoA is that Severus didn't know Riddle was back until the end of GoF.
With that in mind we only have one simple question to ask (the answer is harder).
What choices did Severus have? Snape knew that Remus hadn't had his potion & if a werewolf kills the children it would be rather hard to hide that fact. At the very least he'd be in serious trouble with Dumbledore if he didn't do something. Three choices for Severus then, call for help, be a hero save the children & have vengeance on two of his worst enemies from school, (can't tamper with the potion to get Lupin, rather obvious), or do nothing, which is kind of bad because everyone would know he should have done something.
I discount option A, it implies cowardice. Being self-centered and being a coward are not the same. I'm sure someone who aspires to teach DADA can handle a werewolf. Option A gains nothing, but relative safety.
Option C, doing nothing, causes problems for Severus, it does not gain him anything.
Option B works well no matter what his motivation. If he's "good" saving the day is better than hoping someone else will. If he's "evil" he gets his vengeance while appearing to be a hero. If he is out for himself, see "evil" answer above.
No, I think the PoA ending works for a Severus with suspect moral fiber no matter who he's working for. Severus is not a good person, but he could be working for the good guys.
[edited about four times just after post]
wynnleaf - Jun 8, 2006 3:22 pm (#2385 of 2969)
Edited Jun 8, 2006 4:26 pm
SilverMoonLady and winlia,
Some good arguments.
Snape, however, did know about the passage to the Shrieking Shack. He found out about it when he was in school at Hogwarts and Sirius played the trick on him and got him to go down the passage. Therefore he knew where Lupin was going.
If Snape merely thought Lupin was out for a stroll, there would be no reason at all to follow him. However, if he thought he was going to meet Black, then of course that would be a reason to follow. Once he got to the Whomping Willow, he knew Harry was there, because he found the invisibility cloak. So at that point he knew that he was following Harry and Lupin, who was shortly to transform. Even if he didn't know Black was down there, what motive could he have of following Lupin other than to safegaurd Harry? Simply to discredit Lupin because he forgot his potion? How much simpler to let Lupin go, probably kill or injure Harry (a positive for an evil Snape), and say later "hey, look, I always knew he couldn't be trusted."
If he thought Black was down there, it would make going to the Shrieking Shack all the more dangerous (werewolf and crazed murderer). Once again, if he didn't care about HRH's safety, why not just let events take their course? Why expose himself to the risk?
Okay, the next objection would be that with a wand in hand, a werewolf is not a big threat. I don't think we've got any clear information on how one defends oneself against a werewolf. However, I don't get the impression that while Harry and Hermione are in the forest they have any thought of using wands to protect against the werewolf, even though they'd already studied about them and presumably how to defeat them. I'm not sure about film contamination on this one, but I don't think we see Black try to stop the transformed Lupin with a wand either. I'm not sure if we get any more about werewolves and defense in other books. I just didn't get the impression that having a wand made you "safe" against a werewolf. And particularly if the werewolf was accompanied by a crazed murderer or hated enemy (whichever Snape considered Sirius to be).
Snape knew that Remus hadn't had his potion & if a werewolf kills the children it would be rather hard to hide that fact. At the very least he'd be in serious trouble with Dumbledore.
Why would Snape be in trouble with DD because Lupin ran out of the castle forgetting to take his potion? Snape wouldn't have to admit he knew where Lupin had gone. And Harry would be dead or injured, too, through no apparent "fault" of Snape's.
Also, as to all the options for Snape, remember he couldn't have stopped to think for more than seconds, if that. He came into the office and saw Lupin on the map heading to the Whomping Willow. For him to get all the way to the Shrieking Shack so quickly he'd have to have left immediately -- no hanging around weighing the pros and cons.
TomProffitt - Jun 8, 2006 3:28 pm (#2386 of 2969)
As a further addendum to this line of thought;
I think Severus aspires to be heroic. I think he desires fame and recognition. I think this is a large part of his hatred of both Harry & James. They both received what he felt were undeserved admiration.
I don't think Severus particularly wants to help people he wants the adulation that goes with being a hero.
TomProffitt - Jun 8, 2006 3:34 pm (#2387 of 2969)
"Why would Snape be in trouble with DD .... " --- wynnleaf
Severus's knowledge that there was a werewolf loose somewhere would have to be reported. If he claimed he didn't know where Remus was, that would require him and the staff to respond as though there were a werewolf loose in the castle with all of the kids. Severus is not merely the potion brewer, he is de facto responsible to see that action is taken if Remus doesn't get his potion. No one would expect him to fight a werewolf, everyone would expect him to see that some action were taken.
wynnleaf - Jun 8, 2006 3:43 pm (#2388 of 2969)
Edited Jun 8, 2006 4:44 pm
I agree that Snape would have to report that Lupin was out without the potion, but he wouldn't have to say that he knew where he was. And why not report that Lupin was out? While everyone was searching, Lupin could conveniently kill or injure Harry -- hey, and maybe Sirius, too.
What evidence is there that shows that Snape is desires fame? All I can think of is his losing his temper at the end of POA. Some might interpret that as fury over the loss of the Order of Merlin, but it sounded much more like fury that someone he hated had escaped. Is there any other evidence that he's looking for fame?
SilverMoonLady - Jun 8, 2006 3:44 pm (#2389 of 2969)
Edited by Jun 8, 2006 4:56 pm
I wish I had PoA with me to check the appropriate chapter, with regards to what Snape could actually see on the Marauder's Map... *grumble*
I completely agree that A and C - as presented - are entirely out of character for Snape.
Edit: ack, extra posts whilst thinking!
Certainly, by the time Snape enters the Shack itself, he knows that Harry is in there because of the cloak. And I'm likewise reserving judgement on the effectiveness of wands on werewolves for exactly the same reason as you, though if there *is* a way, Snape would definitely know it.
To me, there are not too many motivations for Snape to dash out after Lupin, and it could not, initially, be to save students he didn't know were there.
It could be to catch him with Sirius and turn them in.
It could be to make sure Lupin didn't end up loose on the grounds (but then, why not take the potion with him?)
It could be in the hopes to gather more evidence to get Lupin sacked.
Hmmmm....
TomProffitt - Jun 8, 2006 3:56 pm (#2390 of 2969)
"What evidence is there that shows that Snape is desires fame?" --- wynnleaf
I think I see it in the way he belittles, Harry. The way he mocks him as the Chosen One. Or our new celebrity. I see him as ridiculing Harry for having the things he wants. It's subtle, but it's in most of the books if not all of them. I don't see it as defining Severus, and I don't think on it's own it's a bad thing. It's merely part of the way I see the character
Catherine - Jun 8, 2006 4:19 pm (#2391 of 2969)
Edited Jun 8, 2006 5:20 pm
What evidence is there that shows that Snape is desires fame? All I can think of is his losing his temper at the end of POA. Some might interpret that as fury over the loss of the Order of Merlin, but it sounded much more like fury that someone he hated had escaped. Is there any other evidence that he's looking for fame?
We've discussed this. Tom summarizes nicely. It may be that we do not agree on the interpretation of Snape's words.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] This is the link where I mention Snape and fame.
Here is Wynnleaf's response Choices, "+ Severus Snape" #2195, 17 May 2006 12:19 pm
haymoni, "+ Severus Snape" #2200, 18 May 2006 1:11 pm Here are some other responses.
wynnleaf - Jun 8, 2006 4:41 pm (#2392 of 2969)
Edited Jun 8, 2006 5:45 pm
Catherine, thanks for finding those. I knew we'd discussed that before, but I was wondering what Tom's arguments were.
Anyway, back to the POA scene, I checked it again. While we still don't have any kind of definitive info on defense against werewolves, it was interesting to see that even though Sirius had a wand, he opted to transform into his dog form to try to protect the kids from Lupin/werewolf. Seems like if a simple Stupify would have done the trick, he'd have done that instead, since becoming a dog didn't necessarily guarantee any kind of protection. Yes, he'd "run" with Lupin/werewolf years before -- but that was 12+ years previously.
I'll certainly agree that there could be other motivations for a bad Snape or out-for-himself Snape to want to go after Lupin. But none of those reasons seem to gain enough supposed benefit compared to the clear risk.
As far as I can tell from the text, Snape would only have known he was chasing Lupin-about-to-become-werewolf, until he got to the tree when he'd have only known about the addition of Harry.
If he was evil Snape, the far less risk would be to let the two continue down the passage on their own -- thus incriminating Lupin in the death or injury of Harry, both of whom Snape would want harmed as much as possible. And there would be no risk for Snape, since he could simply report Lupin as out, somewhere, in werewolf form and never report that he had any idea where Lupin had gone, and certainly not that he knew Harry was there, too. Why go to all the risk of life, or risk of becoming a werewolf, too, solely to gain some fame? Oh, and remember -- if no Sirius, there'd be no fame attached.
If self-serving Snape, there would be an even greater interest in the risks versus the benefits. The only benefit I can see for Snape, that he wouldn't get anyway by simply letting events continue as they were, would be he'd maybe get some appreciation for saving Harry from werewolf Lupin. But that would be at the risk of his own life. Remember, at that point Snape had no idea Sirius was done the tunnel, and so wouldn't have been considering the "fame" of catching Sirius. Even if he suspected Sirius might be there, why risk death simply on the chance that Sirius might be down the tunnel? And if Sirius was down the tunnel, Snape would know the risks only increased.
The problem for evil or self-serving Snape, is that I just can't see why the benefits could outweigh the risks of going down that tunnel. Would a Slytherin who's basically just self-serving take those kinds of risks? A possibility of fame weighing against possibility of death or becoming a werewolf? And remember, if it was only Lupin and Harry down the tunnel, there'd be no fame at all, just whatever satisfaction Snape might get out of the trouble it would cost Lupin.
SilverMoonLady - Jun 8, 2006 4:52 pm (#2393 of 2969)
Oh, I absolutely agree that once Snape realizes that Harry is down the passage as well, *then* he really does have to go, whether it is to protect him (regardless of the source of his motivation, be it duty, caring or something more self-serving), or to merely witness the mess and come out shiny afterwards.
Mind you, I happen to be in the Snape-is-loyal-to-Dumbledore camp, and therefore feel that it is within the parameters of his duties as an Order member, staff member and enemy of Voldemort, to protect Harry! But again, I'm separating out Snape's ill-will towards anyone connected with the Marauder-era grudge match and his broader loyalties. Remember, I don't think that the two are mutually exclusive..
I therefore ask again, in that short span of time from spotting Lupin on the Marauder's Map and finding the cloak, what is in dear Snape's mind & heart? I don't think it is anything *noble*, from my reading of the character and the text, but I enjoy the discussion very much, and have often found that it spurs my mind into possibilities I haven't yet considered:)
winlia - Jun 8, 2006 5:04 pm (#2394 of 2969)
Maybe one can defend one's self against a werewolf with a wand but not without doing great harm to him?
I'm not married to this wand idea, but it seems odd that no one tries to do anything. Wouldn't werewolves overrun the world if there's no defense?
wynnleaf - Jun 8, 2006 5:18 pm (#2395 of 2969)
Edited Jun 8, 2006 6:20 pm
It is a point that prior to getting to the Whomping Willow, Snape was as far as he knew, only going after Lupin. If he's on the good side, why would he do that? Hm, well, he'd been telling DD that he suspected Lupin was trying to help Sirius (incorrect of course). So perhaps he followed Lupin suspicious of his motives for going to the Shrieking Shack. But why follow just for those reasons at the risk of his life? I still can't see the reason for that, unless he did think that Lupin was helping a dangerous insane murderer and it was worth the risk of his life to investigate.
The more I think about it, until Snape knew that there was a student down in the tunnel, it doesn't make sense to risk his life for any of those reasons (good, bad, or self-serving), just to go after Lupin. Why not get help first? Lupin was, after all, definitely going to change into a werewolf and at least he might be somewhat confined down the tunnel or in the shack. Why not go for help? Even with help, if it had only been Lupin, Snape would have still done whatever damage to Lupin he'd hoped to do. There was no fame to miss out on by bringing along help, because he didn't know at the time that Sirius was there.
SilverMoonLady - Jun 8, 2006 5:26 pm (#2396 of 2969)
Yep... I couldn't fathom it either...
Wouldn't werewolves overrun the world if there's no defense?
Seems there's got to be a better thread for that question (which is a good point!); thoughts?
Sil
.*most desirous not to be off-topic-ticketed*
Pinky Prime - Jun 8, 2006 7:57 pm (#2397 of 2969)
Edited Jun 8, 2006 9:11 pm
Snape's conversation with Bella at Spinners End...
"I should remind you that when Potter first arrived at Hogwarts there were still many stories circulating about him rumors that he was a great dark wizard." HBP Chapter 2
I saw jealousy in that statement. The Slytherins in general are fame seekers. Even as the Sorting Hat told Harry, Slytherin could lead him to greatness. A pattern that most DE's share is competing for the attention and associated fame of the Dark Lord.
If the Snape was the low man on the Totem Pole in regards to the hierarchy of the DE's, he most certainly has a lot of respect from LV for his contributions now. Making him more impressive of a marked man on both sides. Despite what DD said to the MoM or the Order about his newfound loyalties. I think he likes the attention that he gets now that he may not have gotten in the past. A Slytherin trait to be sure. Remember how the DE's moved out of his way and allowed him to fulfill Draco's mission. I'd say by the end of HBP he had finally achieved one end to fame and glory.
I admit I would not put it past Snape to use these Slytherin characteristics against the DE's. But nonetheless everytime Harry does something heroic, his own Slytherin and DE characteristics show up. I think he hates Harry more than James because Harry is symbolic of his never achieving the kind of fame that would bring him out of the shadows of his past.
This being said jealousy or revenge is not his motive for finally showing his true colors and siding with Voldemort. I believe Snape's motivation comes from something similar to Harry (as the sorting Hat put it) "A Thirst to Prove Himself". In the POA I interpreted his being denied the Order of Merlin as an indication that he had been thwarted by a Potter again in his Slytherin quest for Fame.
As for the Shrieking Shack in POA with Sirius and Lupin. IMHO Snape knew or suspected (albeit falsely) that they might be there at the same time. As he even told DD of his suspicions Snape almost slipped as to his intentions to find Sirius first. Which was the reason why he was on the lookout for anything suspicious from Harry, Lupin, or less used passageways. He was ready to face them all singlehandedly if need be to prove himself or else he would have had assistance with him while facing the lot. With a bonus to sway the magical community that he did it to save the kids. Yeah right!
I'll stop here before I explore more lines of thought!
haymoni - Jun 9, 2006 5:34 am (#2398 of 2969)
Edited Jun 9, 2006 6:35 am
I agree with Pinky Prime on this.
I always figured that Snape saw Lupin on the map going into the Shrieking Shack and since he already suspects Lupin as the one who let Sirius into the castle, he's on the lookout for anything suspicious.
He knows that nobody from the Wizarding World goes near the Shrieking Shack, so it would be the perfect hideout for Sirius Black, who of course knew of its use by Lupin. Sirius was, after all, the one who sent Snape there in the first place.
I think he went out there to catch Lupin & Black red-handed. I'm sure he thought that he would be powerful enough to take them both on. When he found the cloak, he knew Harry was in danger, since everyone believed Sirius to be after Harry - and now he had Lupin there to help.
wynnleaf - Jun 9, 2006 6:08 am (#2399 of 2969)
Edited Jun 9, 2006 7:12 am
I'm concerned at the equating of ambition, or a thirst to prove oneself, or a desire for others to recognize one's contributions as a desire for fame.
These are not the same at all. Even the most shy person could wish others to acknowledge his contributions, but that doesn't equate to desiring fame.
The more I look at what JKR has done with the Slytherin characterstics, the Sorting Hat songs, and the characters she has described in Slytherin, the more I wonder if she's done a disservice to her own notion that it takes all four houses -- all four personality types -- to make a unified whole.
Ambition is a good thing. Certainly it can cause a person to do bad things if ambition has no moral compass, but the Gryffindor bravery can cause a person to do bad things, too, if not tempered by descretion. Yet because JKR has not shown us the good side of Slytherin characteristics, she makes it look like being ambitious, cunning, etc. produce evil people. And then she has most of her "good" characters promote the idea that all Slytherins are evil, that most DE's come from Slytherin, etc.
Yet she appears to want to show that it takes unity of all the houses to defeat evil. But how can anyone believe in that idea, when she's effectively told us that the attributes of one house aren't attributes at all?
Even the desire for fame, which is not listed as a characteristic of Slytherins, is not necessarily a bad thing, although it certainly seems shallow.
"I should remind you that when Potter first arrived at Hogwarts there were still many stories circulating about him rumors that he was a great dark wizard."
That of course, is the first we've heard of any such rumours, but Bella wasn't around at the time to know any better. I don't see jealousy there, because I understand that to be a lie, as was his implication that he'd reserved judgement of Harry to see what kind of wizard he'd be. We all know he judged him immediately.
In the POA I interpreted his being denied the Order of Merlin as an indication that he had been thwarted by a Potter again in his Slytherin quest for Fame.
We actually never see any indication that he sought the Order of Merlin or that we was angry at losing it, only his fury at Sirius' escape. I'll repeat, desire for others (Harry, DD, the Order, or whoever) to recognize one's ability or contributions is not the same as desiring fame.
I believe Snape's motivation comes from something similar to Harry (as the sorting Hat put it) "A Thirst to Prove Himself".
I agree that this is part of his motivation. But that's not the same as desiring fame.
TomProffitt - Jun 9, 2006 10:32 am (#2400 of 2969)
Yes, the "Thirst to prove himself" is a good discriptor for Severus. Maybe that says more for his dislike of Harry. From Severus's point of view Harry has received much undeserved recognition, he (Harry) has not proven himself.
Another tack on the PoA scene as an example of "Good Snape" versus "Evil Snape." Prior to GoF Severus did not know that Tom Riddle was not dead. His actions would not be based on a choice between Dumbledore and Riddle, but some other standard derived from Severus's goals. Severus's choice certainly tells us something about his character, but it does not tell us what he would do if faced with a choice between a gruesome death and returning to Tom Riddle's service.
In my opinion, I think Severus is a poor actor. He can magically hide his thoughts from a legilimens, but I don't think he can hide his emotions. I believe that Riddle knows Severus is trying to play the double agent, trying to straddle the fence to stay alive, and Riddle thinks it's an amusing bit of torture. Riddle feeds Severus what he wants to, perhaps a few things slip through that have import, but Riddle is not fooled.
Of course, this view leaves some difficult questions to answer, but essentially they are the same questions that have us confused no matter which way we view the character.
Solitaire - Jun 9, 2006 11:04 am (#2401 of 2969)
I believe that Riddle knows Severus is trying to play the double agent, trying to straddle the fence to stay alive, and Riddle thinks it's an amusing bit of torture. Riddle feeds Severus what he wants to, perhaps a few things slip through that have import, but Riddle is not fooled.
I confess, I've occasionally wondered the same thing, Tom. The fact that Snape is still alive is no proof that Voldemort hasn't figured out his game. It could simply mean that Voldemort is still able to make use of him where he is. I think putting Wormtail and Snape together is an interesting move ...
Solitaire
TomProffitt - Jun 9, 2006 11:08 am (#2402 of 2969)
"I think putting Wormtail and Snape together is an interesting move ..." --- Solitaire
It's certainly not an indicator of Riddle's trust in Snape. More likely an indicator of his lack of trust.
Catherine - Jun 9, 2006 11:30 am (#2403 of 2969)
Hmm...I wondered if it was a lack of trust in Pettigrew versus Snape.
Or, perhaps he figured that they'd be pleasant roomies.
I have wondered if Snape will make the same mistake with Pettigrew that Sirius made with Kreacher--disregarding his feelings, underestimating both his resentment and his desire for escape.
Solitaire - Jun 9, 2006 12:25 pm (#2404 of 2969)
Edited Jun 9, 2006 1:45 pm
perhaps he figured that they'd be pleasant roomies
ROTFL Catherine! That's the best laugh I've had in a week!
Tom, I really did see putting them together as an indication of his lack of trust in both. Voldemort already knows Wormtail is not to be trusted. His fear of retribution makes him easy to manipulate. Wormtail is so servile that it is easy to visualize him in the role of an ill-tempered, resentful servant who does his master's bidding but mutters nasty comments under his breath the whole time. I can picture Snape bossing him around and taking advantage of the situation. But Wormtail also strikes me as a big tattletale. I can just see him running to Voldemort with his little accounts of Snape's peccadillos.
Snape would seem to be harder to manipulate, because he is smarter and more capable of masking his thoughts. Wherever his loyalties lie, however, he has been playing a dangerous game, and I believe he must know the bill will eventually come due.
Solitaire
TomProffitt - Jun 9, 2006 12:53 pm (#2405 of 2969)
" ... and I believe he must know the bill will eventually come due." --- Solitaire
I don't know you could take that as a physical form, but that's my bet for Severus's boggart.
Ann - Jun 9, 2006 7:58 pm (#2406 of 2969)
Edited Jun 9, 2006 9:01 pm
I don't know why people seem to think that Voldemort is suspicious of Snape--or, perhaps I should say, extraordinarily suspicious. Voldemort trusts no one, and he's intelligent enough to be particularly dubious about a double agent. On the other hand, both Narcissa (flatteringly) and Draco (resentfully) seem to think that Snape is Voldemort's favorite at the beginning of HBP, and why shouldn't he be? Rookwood and Lucius Malfoy seem to me to be the only other members of his crew who are neither stupid and thuggish nor totally nuts, and they've both landed themselves in jail. Snape shares a lot of Voldemort's characteristics: love of Dark Arts, half-blood, good at Potions, intelligent and articulate, amazing duelist. And he holds a valuable strategic position at Hogwarts. He's much younger, so not likely to be a rival--more like a protege.
I think Voldemort does trust him, as much as he trusts anyone. He may also have given him Wormtail as an assistant to spy on him. On the other hand, he doesn't think much of Wormtail (the man must be endlesssly annoying to live with), and he probably wants to farm him out with someone else. It might amuse him that Wormtail's friends were Snape's enemies in school. It could be a reward to give him Wormtail to serve his drinks, given the relationship they had as kids. And I've always suspected that Wormtail was a Muggle-born (JKR said something about them being allowed to become Death Eaters only under very special circumstances, but being Secret Keeper for the Potters would probably qualify. Snape's neighborhood might be a good place to hide him. (After all, he's not just a fugitive, but his very survival is a secret.)
Solitaire - Jun 9, 2006 9:08 pm (#2407 of 2969)
So you do not believe Snape is the DE whom Voldemort believes "has left me forever" and will be killed? Just wondering ...
Laura W - Jun 10, 2006 2:57 am (#2408 of 2969)
Edited Jun 10, 2006 4:02 am
Ah! Thanks for reminding me about that, Solitaire. If one does believe Voldemort is talking about Snape here, he absolutely knows that Severus is working for the other side. *If* Snape is the one he is talking about - which is what I too thought when I first read it.
Thus: the theory that V will let Severus live and will not let on that he knows that Snape has left the fold (as Sirius' brother did) and will use him until he has no more use for him. Then, it's "AK, Severus!".
I'm not saying I necessarily buy what I wrote in the paragraph above. Just trying to reconcile what Voldemort said to the other DEs in the graveyard in GoF (as Solitaire pointed out) with the fact that, exactly two years after that pronouncement, Severus Snape is still alive. Apparently Regulus was killed within days of his defection.
Laura
Fawkes Egg - Jun 10, 2006 3:40 am (#2409 of 2969)
I think Snape is the DE Voldemort refers to in the graveyard - but by his own explanation at the start of HbP, Snape talked pretty fast to avoid being killed.
Of course, it might well be argued that if Snape is the DE in question, Voldemort would have killed him on sight, thereby giving him no chance to talk his way out of being AKed (for the time being anyway). But Voldemort likes to gloat before he kills, if his attempts on Harry's life are anything to go by (excluding the first attempt of course). He plays with Harry in the graveyard before trying to kill him, rather than just AKing him in front of the DEs right away, making him duel and so on. He also plays with Frank Bryce before kiling him, although his intention is always that Frank is going to die for what he's overheard.
This tendency of Voldemort's may well have saved Snape's life: he would have shown up two hours after the others and begged for his life, Occlumenting for all he was worth of course, and offering Voldemort oodles of inside information on Dumbledore into the bargain. Whether Voldemort plans to still kill Snape in the end or not - and I think he does - there' no way he could resist the possibility of a ready-made spy who's not only ready to take up his old role and keep tabs on Dumbledore, but also has 16 years' worth of back catalogue information to boot.
TomProffitt - Jun 10, 2006 5:07 am (#2410 of 2969)
"This tendency of Voldemort's may well have saved Snape's life...." --- Fawkes Egg
I'm sure that it did play a significant part, but I think we should also remember what trust means to Tom Riddle. It doesn't mean anything. While Riddle is toying with Severus he is also trying to decide if he still has a use for him. Lucky for Severus, Riddle decided he still had value, but he never decided that Severus was a loyal follower.
"But with Snape, she's trying to keep us confused." --- wynnleaf
We probably have a more clear picture of Tom Riddle than we do of any other character, excepting Harry himself.
I think it was very obtuse of Dumbledore to keep his reasons for trusting Severus, so close to his chest. It's poor leadership to be saying "Trust him, because I said so."
It may have hurt Severus's self-esteem to have to 'fess up in front of the Order, but that will preferable to getting wrongly slain for being a bad guy in Book 7.
All I can think of to justify Severus & Dumbledore being so closed mouth about this would be suspision of another traitor in their midst.
haymoni - Jun 7, 2006 10:59 am (#2372 of 2969)
I think Severus may have been more like Peter. It seems as though James & Sirius merely tolerated his presence. I don't think Severus would have been as grovelly, though.
Solitaire - Jun 7, 2006 4:12 pm (#2373 of 2969)
Is that why Severus truly hates James & Sirius? Not because they tried to have him attacked by a werewolf, but because Severus would choose the Death Eaters over the Order of Phoenix as a result of this incident
It would seem pretty lame, even for Snape, to blame someone else for taking a step as dramatic as joining the DEs. He would never "grant" that much power to anyone. I believe it was a succession of incidents over the course of his young life that probably led him to make such a choice ... probably because he believed it would afford him a chance to get even with anyone against whom he had a grudge.
Maybe Snape just hated his situation, but was trapped in it. Just because you're good at something doesn't mean you CAN teach it, or SHOULD teach it or even WANT to teach it.
Die Zimtzicke, this is absolutely correct. For four years I taught with a young woman who was an extremely gifted mathematician. Alas, she was NOT gifted as a teacher, and she made her students' lives miserable. I think you are quite correct to say teaching just isn't Snape's thing. It is obvious from his behavior and comments that he really does not like kids.
I'm sure that Slughorn is no more gifted than Snape (possibly less so) as a Potions Master ... but he is a far more effective teacher (for Harry, at least), because he helps his students believe that they can succeed. He seems capable of rewarding the good students without completely demeaning and debilitating those who are less successful--something Snape seems unable to do.
I, too, think Snape may have been to the Slytherins as Peter was to the Marauders. The difference, I suspect, is that Snape was a good student. (I have always suspected that he was the very "know-it-all" he accused Hermione of being.) If he was as good at Dark Arts as Sirius said, then perhaps he saw that as a way to gain entrée into the "ruling ranks" of Slytherins. JM2K ...
Solitaire
TomProffitt - Jun 7, 2006 4:29 pm (#2374 of 2969)
"I, too, think Snape may have been to the Slytherins as Peter was to the Marauders." --- Solitaire
This is precisely what I was trying to say, Soli. There are likely a host of incorrect ideas in my post, it was almost "brainstorming" when I wrote it.
I imagine that Severus's Slytherin "friends" were significantly more cruel to him than James & Sirius were to Peter, but I'm sure the cruelty was there for all to see. Peter was, I imagine, the kind of kid that would accept the cruel jokes and sarcasm, laughing with his friends, but feeling the hurt inside. The Marauders probably tried to convince themselves they weren't too cruel to Peter, but I expect they were and that they knew it.
And Severus endured worse from his Slytherin friends. Later, he would endure much worse from the Death Eaters. I expect he believed he was gaining stature and respect, and later learned this was not, so.
I think Snape probably did break down in genuine remorse in front of Dumbledore. The question is not, for me at least, did Snape repent? But, did he have the courage to switch loyalties and stay switched?
wynnleaf - Jun 7, 2006 5:23 pm (#2375 of 2969)
Edited Jun 7, 2006 6:29 pm
It would seem pretty lame, even for Snape, to blame someone else for taking a step as dramatic as joining the DEs. He would never "grant" that much power to anyone. I believe it was a succession of incidents over the course of his young life that probably led him to make such a choice ..
Solitaire, I very much agree with this comment. Particularly that Snape wouldn't "grant that much power to anyone." Not that it didn't influence him (building up resentment, bitterness, etc.), but I don't think he'd ever consciously consider anyone as driving him to LV.
Actually, Solitaire, I agree with pretty much that entire post. I wonder if Snape was forced (not coerced, but forced by circumstances) to stay at Hogwarts. After all, the MOM let him off even knowing he was a DE, because DD vouched for him as a spy. Plus, DD knew that Snape's value to LV -- when LV finally came back -- would probably be tied to how close Snape was to DD. In other words, if Snape had little value to LV, he'd be at a lot more risk to get killed as the one LV thought "would never return." But as even Snape said at Spinner's End, being able to give LV a lot of reports about DD and Hogwarts helped save his life when LV came back.
However, even if Snape didn't ever want to teach and despite Snape being mean to students, he does achieve very high results -- at least if we're to believe his own comment to his class that he had a very high OWL pass rate. So apparently, students were learning under Snape. Even Harry got an E, and he got picked on more than anyone other than Neville.
As regards how other Slytherins likely treated Snape.... I don't think they treated him quite like the Marauder's treated Peter -- well, maybe sort of. I think at some point Snape really was friends with Lucius. Narcissa uses that friendship as one of her reasons for why Snape should help Draco. And Draco, prior to HBP, acted like he respected Snape. So I don't think the Lucius and Snape friendship was anything like James and Sirius with Peter. I tend to think (guess) that Lucius probably sort of mentored Snape when they were younger -- he was 6 years older after all. I'd think there might have been a bit of hero worship early on, when that age difference seemed pretty big.
However, we don't really see a lot of evidence of friendship between Snape and any other Slytherins besides the Malfoys. Bellatrix seems to have a certain contempt for him. The way she refers to she and Narcissa as "the first of our kind" to visit Spinners End, makes me think she sees the difference in her pureblood and Snape half-blood quite acutely.
I think of Snape's personality type as not so much extremely shy as extremely introverted. (Would extremely shy people make good spies?) If you think of him entering Slytherin as a known half-blood, poor (used textbooks remember), maybe an accent that made a class difference obvious and add that to a very introverted temperament, and I think you'd get a kid that didn't have a lot of friends and didn't try to make them either.
Solitaire - Jun 7, 2006 7:03 pm (#2376 of 2969)
Wynnleaf, I do believe Snape was at Hogwarts out of necessity, just as Trelawney was. The position was certainly ideal for a double agent, wasn't it? If Voldemort indeed did order him to Hogwarts, why not stay? If Dumbledore felt it would keep him safe, well ... how silly to leave a place of relative safety, where both "masters" wanted him to be!
Regarding Snape's position within the Slytherins ... once he joined the DEs, it might have been different than it was when he was a mere student. I sometimes wonder how many Slytherins actually knew of Snape's Muggle ancestry. While it would not be something he would trumpet around, it certainly puts him in the same boat with Voldemort, doesn't it? I wonder how many DEs knew (or know yet) of Voldemort's Muggle father? Wormtail knows ... but has he told anyone?
I agree with your speculation that Lucius was probably a mentor to Snape. It would really make perfect sense, if we see Snape as a very talented kid who was drawn to the Dark Arts. Naturally Lucius would want to bring such a gem into the DEs as one whose talents could benefit them. Snape's comments to Bella regarding special and direct meetings and assignments with Voldemort would seem to indicate that he was in the "inner circle" of the DEs.
I agree, too, that Narcissa seems to consider Snape a real friend to Lucius and the family. She seems to put far more faith and trust in Snape than she does in her own sister. If Lucius was Snape's mentor, it would make sense that she would feel Snape would help her.
In the graveyard, Voldemort called Lucius "slippery"; but I think Snape is far more so. Nearly everything he has done, as we have seen, can be interpreted in more than one way. Snape's explanations to Bella illustrate this clearly. In fact, I almost think that one point of "Spinner's End" was to show us once again how mercurial Snape is and how ambiguous his loyalties appear. JM2K ...
Solitaire
Ann - Jun 7, 2006 7:45 pm (#2377 of 2969)
Edited Jun 7, 2006 8:48 pm
I think the point of the Spinners End chapter was to clarify Snape's position as a double agent (remember, before HBP, a lot of people thought he was just hanging out with Lucius and other Death Eaters, but not actually meeting with Voldemort) and, more importantly, to delude us into thinking that he was really the evil, calculating Death Eater git he pretends to be in that chapter. I really don't think JKR wanted us to see Snape in that chapter to be ambiguous at all--I think she wanted us to see him as purely evil, a loyal Death Eater. I know a lot of people who found that chapter shocking, because they felt it confirmed that Snape had really been in Voldemort's camp all along, an interpretation that they thought was confirmed by his murder of Dumbledore at the end.
Not everyone who reads the books (it's very safe to say) analyzes them with the thoroughness of people on this Forum. When I pointed out to some of my friends the twitch of Snape's hand during the Vow, the possible significance of the Forbidden Forest conversation Hagrid overhears, and the similarity of Snape's situation on the Tower to Harry's situation in the Cave, they were amazed. It is on the basis of those hints (as well as the overall arc of the books) that assures me that Snape will turn out to be working for the Order throughout Book 7. It's amazing, really, that JKR manages as well as she does, given the wide range of attention that her readers are paying her work. Yet, it can be enjoyed on many, many different levels.
Solitaire - Jun 8, 2006 9:49 am (#2378 of 2969)
delude us into thinking that he was really the evil, calculating Death Eater git he pretends to be in that chapter.
Well, maybe she was deluding us and maybe she wasn't. As for wanting us to see Snape as purely evil ... if that was her aim, she was not too successful, was she? Snape's "performance" in Spinner's End and his AK-ing of Dumbledore only served to make many people even more convinced of his innocence!
Since Jo is familiar with the Forum--she has obviously checked it out if she gave it an award--I think she does realize she has a broad base of readers who truly do dissect her characters and plot devices to pieces. I do not think she believes her true Snape fans gullible enough to simply switch allegiances from that one scene. I believe Jo understands and has far more respect for her readers than that. In my opinion, the Spinner's End chapter was her personal Confundus Charm, an attempt to further muddy the waters regarding Snape's true loyalties. JM2K, of course ... perhaps I am giving her more credit than she deserves.
Solitaire
SilverMoonLady - Jun 8, 2006 12:59 pm (#2379 of 2969)
It seems to me, when taking a close look at Snape, that it is probably important to differentiate between his personal dislikes/hatreds and his moral allegiences to Dumbledore or Voldemort or himself. Those things affect each other in some ways, for example in coloring his relationship with Harry, but I do not think it is impossible or even improbable for Snape to have deeply negative feelings about Harry (because of either past or present), and yet still be entirely loyal to Dumbledore. One can cordially despise one's allies.
This fact definitely makes me wary of using any of the things that happen between Snape & Harry, or Snape & Sirius or even Lupin, in the context of the larger Good vs Bad war. It's personal.
Just my humble thoughts..
PS: much fun reading all of this lovely debate; I love the Lex Forum!
wynnleaf - Jun 8, 2006 1:18 pm (#2380 of 2969)
Edited Jun 8, 2006 2:21 pm
I have been wondering about the options of 1. Snape on the good side, 2. Snape on the bad side and 3. Snape out for himself. The other night I was watching POA (admittedly "off" from canon in numerous places), and began to wonder how the various options for Snape fit into his actions at the end of POA.
After considering it, I don't feel the actions of Snape at the end of POA (not the film alterations, but the actual book), are indicative of someone who is playing both sides and basically working for himself.
At the end of POA, when Snape runs from Lupin's office to the Whomping Willow, he knew that he was going alone to face Sirius -- thought to be a possibly insane murderer of 13 -- and Lupin who hadn't taken his Wolfsbane potion and was about to transform. Yet Snape goes anyway. Of course, a "good" Snape might be going to help the children. A "bad" Snape might be going to take advantage of an opportunity to do away with both Sirius and Lupin. And a "playing both sides" Snape might be doing the same, since he hated Sirius.
But actually, it makes almost no sense for Snape to put his life at such great risk from both Sirius and especially Lupin, solely to take an opportunity to capture or kill a hated school-time rival. The degree of risk that Snape willingly takes on can only be explained by his seeing that the "benefit" of his action was equal to or outweighed the risk of his own life. And what could be worth the substantial risk to his life? I can't see a "for self only" Snape considering that the capture of Sirius was worth the risk of his own life at the teeth and claws of a werewolf. Nor can I see why a "working for Voldemort" Snape would consider it worth that risk either. The only thing that I can see that could be considered worth the risk Snape took, would be if Snape was on the good side and was attempting to save the lives of three others (the children).
I suppose that one might feel that Snape hated Sirius to such a degree that he'd risk his own life at the teeth of a werewolf in order to get Sirius, but I just don't think that's the sort of action a self-serving person would take. After all, Snape knew for certain that Lupin was about to change. The risk was huge that he'd be dealing with a werewolf. I can't see a self-serving person taking such a risk solely to get at Sirius.
Of course, there's always the other option that Snape was faithful to the good side through POA or GOF -- even to the extent of being willing to risk his life at the end of POA -- but then either switched sides or became "out for himself," after GOF. Only thing is, the willingness to risk his life at the end of POA just doesn't seem to me to fit with someone who would switch sides. Why switch sides or suddenly become "out for himself" after all? Self-preservation is all I could think of. But if so, why wasn't self-preservation as important at the end of POA?
SilverMoonLady - Jun 8, 2006 2:31 pm (#2381 of 2969)
Well, here's my biggest reservation on speculating why Snape went to the Whomping Willow that night in PoA: as I understand it, the Map doesn't show the Shrieking Shack, only the passage heading away from the Whomping Willow. I base this on two things: Harry says he doesn't know where the passage goes but has a good idea; Snape likewise says he saw Lupin in the passage heading off the map. I don't have the book with me, so I may be wrong.
If I am correct, then there is no way for Snape to *know* that Sirius or HRH are in the Shack. He might well suspect that Sirius was down there, as he has suspected Lupin all along of aiding him into the school. (Makes you wonder why Snape never bothered to make a stink about the passage himself, since he knew it was there... But then neither did Dumbledore...)
And if his concern was for Lupin - motivated by duty more than any fondness I'm sure we all agree - then why didn't he take Wolfsbane with him? What would he have done had Lupin gone 'were' in his presence?
Why *did* Snape head off after someone who was a short time away from becoming very dangerous to be near to?
For that reason, and some others, I tend to view Snape's actions *in the Shrieking Shack* as motivated by purely personal reasons.
JM2K, as y'all like to say:))
winlia - Jun 8, 2006 3:01 pm (#2382 of 2969)
Snape didn't know that the kids would disarm him when he went to the shack. Maybe a werewolf isn't such a big threat to a wizard with a wand?
SilverMoonLady - Jun 8, 2006 3:11 pm (#2383 of 2969)
Maybe a werewolf isn't such a big threat to a wizard with a wand?
That's entirely possible, especially one as good at DADA as Snape. Still makes me wonder what his intentions were...
Oh, and lest I be misclassed as a Snape-basher, I'm not. I find him fascinating and complex, and very very human in his imperfections.
TomProffitt - Jun 8, 2006 3:18 pm (#2384 of 2969)
Edited Jun 8, 2006 4:23 pm
Part of the confusion over Snape's loyalties at the end of PoA is that Severus didn't know Riddle was back until the end of GoF.
With that in mind we only have one simple question to ask (the answer is harder).
What choices did Severus have? Snape knew that Remus hadn't had his potion & if a werewolf kills the children it would be rather hard to hide that fact. At the very least he'd be in serious trouble with Dumbledore if he didn't do something. Three choices for Severus then, call for help, be a hero save the children & have vengeance on two of his worst enemies from school, (can't tamper with the potion to get Lupin, rather obvious), or do nothing, which is kind of bad because everyone would know he should have done something.
I discount option A, it implies cowardice. Being self-centered and being a coward are not the same. I'm sure someone who aspires to teach DADA can handle a werewolf. Option A gains nothing, but relative safety.
Option C, doing nothing, causes problems for Severus, it does not gain him anything.
Option B works well no matter what his motivation. If he's "good" saving the day is better than hoping someone else will. If he's "evil" he gets his vengeance while appearing to be a hero. If he is out for himself, see "evil" answer above.
No, I think the PoA ending works for a Severus with suspect moral fiber no matter who he's working for. Severus is not a good person, but he could be working for the good guys.
[edited about four times just after post]
wynnleaf - Jun 8, 2006 3:22 pm (#2385 of 2969)
Edited Jun 8, 2006 4:26 pm
SilverMoonLady and winlia,
Some good arguments.
Snape, however, did know about the passage to the Shrieking Shack. He found out about it when he was in school at Hogwarts and Sirius played the trick on him and got him to go down the passage. Therefore he knew where Lupin was going.
If Snape merely thought Lupin was out for a stroll, there would be no reason at all to follow him. However, if he thought he was going to meet Black, then of course that would be a reason to follow. Once he got to the Whomping Willow, he knew Harry was there, because he found the invisibility cloak. So at that point he knew that he was following Harry and Lupin, who was shortly to transform. Even if he didn't know Black was down there, what motive could he have of following Lupin other than to safegaurd Harry? Simply to discredit Lupin because he forgot his potion? How much simpler to let Lupin go, probably kill or injure Harry (a positive for an evil Snape), and say later "hey, look, I always knew he couldn't be trusted."
If he thought Black was down there, it would make going to the Shrieking Shack all the more dangerous (werewolf and crazed murderer). Once again, if he didn't care about HRH's safety, why not just let events take their course? Why expose himself to the risk?
Okay, the next objection would be that with a wand in hand, a werewolf is not a big threat. I don't think we've got any clear information on how one defends oneself against a werewolf. However, I don't get the impression that while Harry and Hermione are in the forest they have any thought of using wands to protect against the werewolf, even though they'd already studied about them and presumably how to defeat them. I'm not sure about film contamination on this one, but I don't think we see Black try to stop the transformed Lupin with a wand either. I'm not sure if we get any more about werewolves and defense in other books. I just didn't get the impression that having a wand made you "safe" against a werewolf. And particularly if the werewolf was accompanied by a crazed murderer or hated enemy (whichever Snape considered Sirius to be).
Snape knew that Remus hadn't had his potion & if a werewolf kills the children it would be rather hard to hide that fact. At the very least he'd be in serious trouble with Dumbledore.
Why would Snape be in trouble with DD because Lupin ran out of the castle forgetting to take his potion? Snape wouldn't have to admit he knew where Lupin had gone. And Harry would be dead or injured, too, through no apparent "fault" of Snape's.
Also, as to all the options for Snape, remember he couldn't have stopped to think for more than seconds, if that. He came into the office and saw Lupin on the map heading to the Whomping Willow. For him to get all the way to the Shrieking Shack so quickly he'd have to have left immediately -- no hanging around weighing the pros and cons.
TomProffitt - Jun 8, 2006 3:28 pm (#2386 of 2969)
As a further addendum to this line of thought;
I think Severus aspires to be heroic. I think he desires fame and recognition. I think this is a large part of his hatred of both Harry & James. They both received what he felt were undeserved admiration.
I don't think Severus particularly wants to help people he wants the adulation that goes with being a hero.
TomProffitt - Jun 8, 2006 3:34 pm (#2387 of 2969)
"Why would Snape be in trouble with DD .... " --- wynnleaf
Severus's knowledge that there was a werewolf loose somewhere would have to be reported. If he claimed he didn't know where Remus was, that would require him and the staff to respond as though there were a werewolf loose in the castle with all of the kids. Severus is not merely the potion brewer, he is de facto responsible to see that action is taken if Remus doesn't get his potion. No one would expect him to fight a werewolf, everyone would expect him to see that some action were taken.
wynnleaf - Jun 8, 2006 3:43 pm (#2388 of 2969)
Edited Jun 8, 2006 4:44 pm
I agree that Snape would have to report that Lupin was out without the potion, but he wouldn't have to say that he knew where he was. And why not report that Lupin was out? While everyone was searching, Lupin could conveniently kill or injure Harry -- hey, and maybe Sirius, too.
What evidence is there that shows that Snape is desires fame? All I can think of is his losing his temper at the end of POA. Some might interpret that as fury over the loss of the Order of Merlin, but it sounded much more like fury that someone he hated had escaped. Is there any other evidence that he's looking for fame?
SilverMoonLady - Jun 8, 2006 3:44 pm (#2389 of 2969)
Edited by Jun 8, 2006 4:56 pm
I wish I had PoA with me to check the appropriate chapter, with regards to what Snape could actually see on the Marauder's Map... *grumble*
I completely agree that A and C - as presented - are entirely out of character for Snape.
Edit: ack, extra posts whilst thinking!
Certainly, by the time Snape enters the Shack itself, he knows that Harry is in there because of the cloak. And I'm likewise reserving judgement on the effectiveness of wands on werewolves for exactly the same reason as you, though if there *is* a way, Snape would definitely know it.
To me, there are not too many motivations for Snape to dash out after Lupin, and it could not, initially, be to save students he didn't know were there.
It could be to catch him with Sirius and turn them in.
It could be to make sure Lupin didn't end up loose on the grounds (but then, why not take the potion with him?)
It could be in the hopes to gather more evidence to get Lupin sacked.
Hmmmm....
TomProffitt - Jun 8, 2006 3:56 pm (#2390 of 2969)
"What evidence is there that shows that Snape is desires fame?" --- wynnleaf
I think I see it in the way he belittles, Harry. The way he mocks him as the Chosen One. Or our new celebrity. I see him as ridiculing Harry for having the things he wants. It's subtle, but it's in most of the books if not all of them. I don't see it as defining Severus, and I don't think on it's own it's a bad thing. It's merely part of the way I see the character
Catherine - Jun 8, 2006 4:19 pm (#2391 of 2969)
Edited Jun 8, 2006 5:20 pm
What evidence is there that shows that Snape is desires fame? All I can think of is his losing his temper at the end of POA. Some might interpret that as fury over the loss of the Order of Merlin, but it sounded much more like fury that someone he hated had escaped. Is there any other evidence that he's looking for fame?
We've discussed this. Tom summarizes nicely. It may be that we do not agree on the interpretation of Snape's words.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] This is the link where I mention Snape and fame.
Here is Wynnleaf's response Choices, "+ Severus Snape" #2195, 17 May 2006 12:19 pm
haymoni, "+ Severus Snape" #2200, 18 May 2006 1:11 pm Here are some other responses.
wynnleaf - Jun 8, 2006 4:41 pm (#2392 of 2969)
Edited Jun 8, 2006 5:45 pm
Catherine, thanks for finding those. I knew we'd discussed that before, but I was wondering what Tom's arguments were.
Anyway, back to the POA scene, I checked it again. While we still don't have any kind of definitive info on defense against werewolves, it was interesting to see that even though Sirius had a wand, he opted to transform into his dog form to try to protect the kids from Lupin/werewolf. Seems like if a simple Stupify would have done the trick, he'd have done that instead, since becoming a dog didn't necessarily guarantee any kind of protection. Yes, he'd "run" with Lupin/werewolf years before -- but that was 12+ years previously.
I'll certainly agree that there could be other motivations for a bad Snape or out-for-himself Snape to want to go after Lupin. But none of those reasons seem to gain enough supposed benefit compared to the clear risk.
As far as I can tell from the text, Snape would only have known he was chasing Lupin-about-to-become-werewolf, until he got to the tree when he'd have only known about the addition of Harry.
If he was evil Snape, the far less risk would be to let the two continue down the passage on their own -- thus incriminating Lupin in the death or injury of Harry, both of whom Snape would want harmed as much as possible. And there would be no risk for Snape, since he could simply report Lupin as out, somewhere, in werewolf form and never report that he had any idea where Lupin had gone, and certainly not that he knew Harry was there, too. Why go to all the risk of life, or risk of becoming a werewolf, too, solely to gain some fame? Oh, and remember -- if no Sirius, there'd be no fame attached.
If self-serving Snape, there would be an even greater interest in the risks versus the benefits. The only benefit I can see for Snape, that he wouldn't get anyway by simply letting events continue as they were, would be he'd maybe get some appreciation for saving Harry from werewolf Lupin. But that would be at the risk of his own life. Remember, at that point Snape had no idea Sirius was done the tunnel, and so wouldn't have been considering the "fame" of catching Sirius. Even if he suspected Sirius might be there, why risk death simply on the chance that Sirius might be down the tunnel? And if Sirius was down the tunnel, Snape would know the risks only increased.
The problem for evil or self-serving Snape, is that I just can't see why the benefits could outweigh the risks of going down that tunnel. Would a Slytherin who's basically just self-serving take those kinds of risks? A possibility of fame weighing against possibility of death or becoming a werewolf? And remember, if it was only Lupin and Harry down the tunnel, there'd be no fame at all, just whatever satisfaction Snape might get out of the trouble it would cost Lupin.
SilverMoonLady - Jun 8, 2006 4:52 pm (#2393 of 2969)
Oh, I absolutely agree that once Snape realizes that Harry is down the passage as well, *then* he really does have to go, whether it is to protect him (regardless of the source of his motivation, be it duty, caring or something more self-serving), or to merely witness the mess and come out shiny afterwards.
Mind you, I happen to be in the Snape-is-loyal-to-Dumbledore camp, and therefore feel that it is within the parameters of his duties as an Order member, staff member and enemy of Voldemort, to protect Harry! But again, I'm separating out Snape's ill-will towards anyone connected with the Marauder-era grudge match and his broader loyalties. Remember, I don't think that the two are mutually exclusive..
I therefore ask again, in that short span of time from spotting Lupin on the Marauder's Map and finding the cloak, what is in dear Snape's mind & heart? I don't think it is anything *noble*, from my reading of the character and the text, but I enjoy the discussion very much, and have often found that it spurs my mind into possibilities I haven't yet considered:)
winlia - Jun 8, 2006 5:04 pm (#2394 of 2969)
Maybe one can defend one's self against a werewolf with a wand but not without doing great harm to him?
I'm not married to this wand idea, but it seems odd that no one tries to do anything. Wouldn't werewolves overrun the world if there's no defense?
wynnleaf - Jun 8, 2006 5:18 pm (#2395 of 2969)
Edited Jun 8, 2006 6:20 pm
It is a point that prior to getting to the Whomping Willow, Snape was as far as he knew, only going after Lupin. If he's on the good side, why would he do that? Hm, well, he'd been telling DD that he suspected Lupin was trying to help Sirius (incorrect of course). So perhaps he followed Lupin suspicious of his motives for going to the Shrieking Shack. But why follow just for those reasons at the risk of his life? I still can't see the reason for that, unless he did think that Lupin was helping a dangerous insane murderer and it was worth the risk of his life to investigate.
The more I think about it, until Snape knew that there was a student down in the tunnel, it doesn't make sense to risk his life for any of those reasons (good, bad, or self-serving), just to go after Lupin. Why not get help first? Lupin was, after all, definitely going to change into a werewolf and at least he might be somewhat confined down the tunnel or in the shack. Why not go for help? Even with help, if it had only been Lupin, Snape would have still done whatever damage to Lupin he'd hoped to do. There was no fame to miss out on by bringing along help, because he didn't know at the time that Sirius was there.
SilverMoonLady - Jun 8, 2006 5:26 pm (#2396 of 2969)
Yep... I couldn't fathom it either...
Wouldn't werewolves overrun the world if there's no defense?
Seems there's got to be a better thread for that question (which is a good point!); thoughts?
Sil
.*most desirous not to be off-topic-ticketed*
Pinky Prime - Jun 8, 2006 7:57 pm (#2397 of 2969)
Edited Jun 8, 2006 9:11 pm
Snape's conversation with Bella at Spinners End...
"I should remind you that when Potter first arrived at Hogwarts there were still many stories circulating about him rumors that he was a great dark wizard." HBP Chapter 2
I saw jealousy in that statement. The Slytherins in general are fame seekers. Even as the Sorting Hat told Harry, Slytherin could lead him to greatness. A pattern that most DE's share is competing for the attention and associated fame of the Dark Lord.
If the Snape was the low man on the Totem Pole in regards to the hierarchy of the DE's, he most certainly has a lot of respect from LV for his contributions now. Making him more impressive of a marked man on both sides. Despite what DD said to the MoM or the Order about his newfound loyalties. I think he likes the attention that he gets now that he may not have gotten in the past. A Slytherin trait to be sure. Remember how the DE's moved out of his way and allowed him to fulfill Draco's mission. I'd say by the end of HBP he had finally achieved one end to fame and glory.
I admit I would not put it past Snape to use these Slytherin characteristics against the DE's. But nonetheless everytime Harry does something heroic, his own Slytherin and DE characteristics show up. I think he hates Harry more than James because Harry is symbolic of his never achieving the kind of fame that would bring him out of the shadows of his past.
This being said jealousy or revenge is not his motive for finally showing his true colors and siding with Voldemort. I believe Snape's motivation comes from something similar to Harry (as the sorting Hat put it) "A Thirst to Prove Himself". In the POA I interpreted his being denied the Order of Merlin as an indication that he had been thwarted by a Potter again in his Slytherin quest for Fame.
As for the Shrieking Shack in POA with Sirius and Lupin. IMHO Snape knew or suspected (albeit falsely) that they might be there at the same time. As he even told DD of his suspicions Snape almost slipped as to his intentions to find Sirius first. Which was the reason why he was on the lookout for anything suspicious from Harry, Lupin, or less used passageways. He was ready to face them all singlehandedly if need be to prove himself or else he would have had assistance with him while facing the lot. With a bonus to sway the magical community that he did it to save the kids. Yeah right!
I'll stop here before I explore more lines of thought!
haymoni - Jun 9, 2006 5:34 am (#2398 of 2969)
Edited Jun 9, 2006 6:35 am
I agree with Pinky Prime on this.
I always figured that Snape saw Lupin on the map going into the Shrieking Shack and since he already suspects Lupin as the one who let Sirius into the castle, he's on the lookout for anything suspicious.
He knows that nobody from the Wizarding World goes near the Shrieking Shack, so it would be the perfect hideout for Sirius Black, who of course knew of its use by Lupin. Sirius was, after all, the one who sent Snape there in the first place.
I think he went out there to catch Lupin & Black red-handed. I'm sure he thought that he would be powerful enough to take them both on. When he found the cloak, he knew Harry was in danger, since everyone believed Sirius to be after Harry - and now he had Lupin there to help.
wynnleaf - Jun 9, 2006 6:08 am (#2399 of 2969)
Edited Jun 9, 2006 7:12 am
I'm concerned at the equating of ambition, or a thirst to prove oneself, or a desire for others to recognize one's contributions as a desire for fame.
These are not the same at all. Even the most shy person could wish others to acknowledge his contributions, but that doesn't equate to desiring fame.
The more I look at what JKR has done with the Slytherin characterstics, the Sorting Hat songs, and the characters she has described in Slytherin, the more I wonder if she's done a disservice to her own notion that it takes all four houses -- all four personality types -- to make a unified whole.
Ambition is a good thing. Certainly it can cause a person to do bad things if ambition has no moral compass, but the Gryffindor bravery can cause a person to do bad things, too, if not tempered by descretion. Yet because JKR has not shown us the good side of Slytherin characteristics, she makes it look like being ambitious, cunning, etc. produce evil people. And then she has most of her "good" characters promote the idea that all Slytherins are evil, that most DE's come from Slytherin, etc.
Yet she appears to want to show that it takes unity of all the houses to defeat evil. But how can anyone believe in that idea, when she's effectively told us that the attributes of one house aren't attributes at all?
Even the desire for fame, which is not listed as a characteristic of Slytherins, is not necessarily a bad thing, although it certainly seems shallow.
"I should remind you that when Potter first arrived at Hogwarts there were still many stories circulating about him rumors that he was a great dark wizard."
That of course, is the first we've heard of any such rumours, but Bella wasn't around at the time to know any better. I don't see jealousy there, because I understand that to be a lie, as was his implication that he'd reserved judgement of Harry to see what kind of wizard he'd be. We all know he judged him immediately.
In the POA I interpreted his being denied the Order of Merlin as an indication that he had been thwarted by a Potter again in his Slytherin quest for Fame.
We actually never see any indication that he sought the Order of Merlin or that we was angry at losing it, only his fury at Sirius' escape. I'll repeat, desire for others (Harry, DD, the Order, or whoever) to recognize one's ability or contributions is not the same as desiring fame.
I believe Snape's motivation comes from something similar to Harry (as the sorting Hat put it) "A Thirst to Prove Himself".
I agree that this is part of his motivation. But that's not the same as desiring fame.
TomProffitt - Jun 9, 2006 10:32 am (#2400 of 2969)
Yes, the "Thirst to prove himself" is a good discriptor for Severus. Maybe that says more for his dislike of Harry. From Severus's point of view Harry has received much undeserved recognition, he (Harry) has not proven himself.
Another tack on the PoA scene as an example of "Good Snape" versus "Evil Snape." Prior to GoF Severus did not know that Tom Riddle was not dead. His actions would not be based on a choice between Dumbledore and Riddle, but some other standard derived from Severus's goals. Severus's choice certainly tells us something about his character, but it does not tell us what he would do if faced with a choice between a gruesome death and returning to Tom Riddle's service.
In my opinion, I think Severus is a poor actor. He can magically hide his thoughts from a legilimens, but I don't think he can hide his emotions. I believe that Riddle knows Severus is trying to play the double agent, trying to straddle the fence to stay alive, and Riddle thinks it's an amusing bit of torture. Riddle feeds Severus what he wants to, perhaps a few things slip through that have import, but Riddle is not fooled.
Of course, this view leaves some difficult questions to answer, but essentially they are the same questions that have us confused no matter which way we view the character.
Solitaire - Jun 9, 2006 11:04 am (#2401 of 2969)
I believe that Riddle knows Severus is trying to play the double agent, trying to straddle the fence to stay alive, and Riddle thinks it's an amusing bit of torture. Riddle feeds Severus what he wants to, perhaps a few things slip through that have import, but Riddle is not fooled.
I confess, I've occasionally wondered the same thing, Tom. The fact that Snape is still alive is no proof that Voldemort hasn't figured out his game. It could simply mean that Voldemort is still able to make use of him where he is. I think putting Wormtail and Snape together is an interesting move ...
Solitaire
TomProffitt - Jun 9, 2006 11:08 am (#2402 of 2969)
"I think putting Wormtail and Snape together is an interesting move ..." --- Solitaire
It's certainly not an indicator of Riddle's trust in Snape. More likely an indicator of his lack of trust.
Catherine - Jun 9, 2006 11:30 am (#2403 of 2969)
Hmm...I wondered if it was a lack of trust in Pettigrew versus Snape.
Or, perhaps he figured that they'd be pleasant roomies.
I have wondered if Snape will make the same mistake with Pettigrew that Sirius made with Kreacher--disregarding his feelings, underestimating both his resentment and his desire for escape.
Solitaire - Jun 9, 2006 12:25 pm (#2404 of 2969)
Edited Jun 9, 2006 1:45 pm
perhaps he figured that they'd be pleasant roomies
ROTFL Catherine! That's the best laugh I've had in a week!
Tom, I really did see putting them together as an indication of his lack of trust in both. Voldemort already knows Wormtail is not to be trusted. His fear of retribution makes him easy to manipulate. Wormtail is so servile that it is easy to visualize him in the role of an ill-tempered, resentful servant who does his master's bidding but mutters nasty comments under his breath the whole time. I can picture Snape bossing him around and taking advantage of the situation. But Wormtail also strikes me as a big tattletale. I can just see him running to Voldemort with his little accounts of Snape's peccadillos.
Snape would seem to be harder to manipulate, because he is smarter and more capable of masking his thoughts. Wherever his loyalties lie, however, he has been playing a dangerous game, and I believe he must know the bill will eventually come due.
Solitaire
TomProffitt - Jun 9, 2006 12:53 pm (#2405 of 2969)
" ... and I believe he must know the bill will eventually come due." --- Solitaire
I don't know you could take that as a physical form, but that's my bet for Severus's boggart.
Ann - Jun 9, 2006 7:58 pm (#2406 of 2969)
Edited Jun 9, 2006 9:01 pm
I don't know why people seem to think that Voldemort is suspicious of Snape--or, perhaps I should say, extraordinarily suspicious. Voldemort trusts no one, and he's intelligent enough to be particularly dubious about a double agent. On the other hand, both Narcissa (flatteringly) and Draco (resentfully) seem to think that Snape is Voldemort's favorite at the beginning of HBP, and why shouldn't he be? Rookwood and Lucius Malfoy seem to me to be the only other members of his crew who are neither stupid and thuggish nor totally nuts, and they've both landed themselves in jail. Snape shares a lot of Voldemort's characteristics: love of Dark Arts, half-blood, good at Potions, intelligent and articulate, amazing duelist. And he holds a valuable strategic position at Hogwarts. He's much younger, so not likely to be a rival--more like a protege.
I think Voldemort does trust him, as much as he trusts anyone. He may also have given him Wormtail as an assistant to spy on him. On the other hand, he doesn't think much of Wormtail (the man must be endlesssly annoying to live with), and he probably wants to farm him out with someone else. It might amuse him that Wormtail's friends were Snape's enemies in school. It could be a reward to give him Wormtail to serve his drinks, given the relationship they had as kids. And I've always suspected that Wormtail was a Muggle-born (JKR said something about them being allowed to become Death Eaters only under very special circumstances, but being Secret Keeper for the Potters would probably qualify. Snape's neighborhood might be a good place to hide him. (After all, he's not just a fugitive, but his very survival is a secret.)
Solitaire - Jun 9, 2006 9:08 pm (#2407 of 2969)
So you do not believe Snape is the DE whom Voldemort believes "has left me forever" and will be killed? Just wondering ...
Laura W - Jun 10, 2006 2:57 am (#2408 of 2969)
Edited Jun 10, 2006 4:02 am
Ah! Thanks for reminding me about that, Solitaire. If one does believe Voldemort is talking about Snape here, he absolutely knows that Severus is working for the other side. *If* Snape is the one he is talking about - which is what I too thought when I first read it.
Thus: the theory that V will let Severus live and will not let on that he knows that Snape has left the fold (as Sirius' brother did) and will use him until he has no more use for him. Then, it's "AK, Severus!".
I'm not saying I necessarily buy what I wrote in the paragraph above. Just trying to reconcile what Voldemort said to the other DEs in the graveyard in GoF (as Solitaire pointed out) with the fact that, exactly two years after that pronouncement, Severus Snape is still alive. Apparently Regulus was killed within days of his defection.
Laura
Fawkes Egg - Jun 10, 2006 3:40 am (#2409 of 2969)
I think Snape is the DE Voldemort refers to in the graveyard - but by his own explanation at the start of HbP, Snape talked pretty fast to avoid being killed.
Of course, it might well be argued that if Snape is the DE in question, Voldemort would have killed him on sight, thereby giving him no chance to talk his way out of being AKed (for the time being anyway). But Voldemort likes to gloat before he kills, if his attempts on Harry's life are anything to go by (excluding the first attempt of course). He plays with Harry in the graveyard before trying to kill him, rather than just AKing him in front of the DEs right away, making him duel and so on. He also plays with Frank Bryce before kiling him, although his intention is always that Frank is going to die for what he's overheard.
This tendency of Voldemort's may well have saved Snape's life: he would have shown up two hours after the others and begged for his life, Occlumenting for all he was worth of course, and offering Voldemort oodles of inside information on Dumbledore into the bargain. Whether Voldemort plans to still kill Snape in the end or not - and I think he does - there' no way he could resist the possibility of a ready-made spy who's not only ready to take up his old role and keep tabs on Dumbledore, but also has 16 years' worth of back catalogue information to boot.
TomProffitt - Jun 10, 2006 5:07 am (#2410 of 2969)
"This tendency of Voldemort's may well have saved Snape's life...." --- Fawkes Egg
I'm sure that it did play a significant part, but I think we should also remember what trust means to Tom Riddle. It doesn't mean anything. While Riddle is toying with Severus he is also trying to decide if he still has a use for him. Lucky for Severus, Riddle decided he still had value, but he never decided that Severus was a loyal follower.
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Ann - Jun 10, 2006 6:39 am (#2411 of 2969)
Edited Jun 10, 2006 7:52 am
So you do not believe Snape is the DE whom Voldemort believes "has left me forever" and will be killed? Just wondering ...
I do think that Voldemort was referring to Snape, Solitaire. Snape actually confirms this by quoting the line at the beginning of HBP, as FawkesEgg points out. But, as he also says in that chapter, Voldemort appreciated, when Snape returned to him (two hours late, sent by Dumbledore), that Snape has carefully preserved the facade of loyalty to Dumbledore that he had ordered him to create, and that he is now perfectly positioned to serve him as a spy (since Moody/Crouch is gone). Snape explained, and Voldemort accepted his explanation and forgave him his minor tardiness. As Snape himself points out in that chapter, Bella's fanatic loyalty is unaccompanied by much else in the way of advantages.
I think Snape's explanation of his current (fall 1996) relationship with Voldemort in that chapter is pretty close to the truth. After all, who else is there who hasn't failed him? Lucius? Avery? Rookwood? Bella herself? All were involved in the fiasco at the DoM, and, except Bella, all are in prison. Wormtail has been faithful and useful, but he's a fugitive and annowing (and I suspect Muggle-born). If the picture Snape paints were a huge exaggeration, Bella would find it merely laughable; but it obviously fits with what she knows, because it worries her. Even she admits that the Dark Lord trusts him, even though she thinks he's wrong to do so.
Voldemort knows that Snape is a valuable ally and a useful spy--he knows Dumbledore thinks Snape is spying for him, but he thinks Dumbledore is too trusting and wrong--a fool who was taken in by Snape's pretended remorse. Snape is the best Voldemort has (look at the "Flight of the Prince" chapter), and I think Voldemort knows it. I think he even gave him a chance to explain himself. He's not stupid--and to kill such a potential ally without giving him a chance to explain himself would be stupid.
What he doesn't understand, of course, is love. And if, as I think HBP makes almost explicit, Snape loved Lily, he could never truly serve her murderer. But Voldemort has a blind spot there, and wouldn't see any reason why he couldn't. Dumbledore, however, understands, and it's why he trusts Snape. That's what I think.
Magic Words - Jun 10, 2006 7:08 am (#2412 of 2969)
Even if Voldemort was planning to kill Snape on sight or after some brief gloating, the fact that Snape returned of his own accord probably threw him off. He knew Snape as a Death Eater and Slytherin, and would probably think that while Snape might try to get out of DE-ship, he wouldn't risk his life to resume his spy status against Voldemort, therefore, his return must be sincere.
wynnleaf - Jun 10, 2006 7:59 am (#2413 of 2969)
Ann and Magic Words,
Very good points. I think the best evidence that those ideas are correct is Bella's response. She does not trust Snape, but it's pretty obvious that she's frustrated that LV does trust Snape, at least a lot more than Bella thinks he should. And when Snape gives his reasons for why LV didn't kill him in the graveyard (or where ever they met up), Bella accepts that. Not that she trusts Snape any more after his explanations, but she does seem to accept that these are the likely reasons for LV's acceptance of Snape.
As to whether or not LV would eventually intend to kill Snape, I think he is always probably prepared to kill anyone that is no longer useful and is a liability. He'd keep Snape around as long as he could use him. But I've wondered if Snape's AKing of DD might, in the short run, gain him more status with LV, but in the long run cause LV to distrust him even more and grow concerned about what Snape would do if he was working for himself.
Also, I don't think LV works on any sort of real "trust" level. He doesn't trust anyone really.
On the other hand, I expect that DD's trust is true trust. He uses that word over and over in relation to Snape. Therefore I doubt if his trust in Snape is based on any sort of vow, etc. as that wouldn't engender "trust," being more of a coercion.
journeymom - Jun 10, 2006 8:50 am (#2414 of 2969)
"On the other hand, I expect that DD's trust is true trust. He uses that word over and over in relation to Snape. Therefore I doubt if his trust in Snape is based on any sort of vow, etc. as that wouldn't engender "trust," being more of a coercion."
Absolutely. I'm almost certain Dd didn't require a Vow from Snape.
Solitaire - Jun 10, 2006 8:58 am (#2415 of 2969)
Voldemort likes to gloat before he kills
He never learns, does he? Let's hope he never does! This little quirk of Voldemort's is always what has allowed Harry to escape his clutches.
Snape is the best Voldemort has
Alas, this is too true, whether he is still unsure of Snape or thinks Snape may still be his disciple. Snape is focused and calculating, particularly when compared to a hot-headed loose cannon like Bella. If, however, Voldemort truly believes Snape has left him forever, he must suspect Snape of working for the other side. What can he hope to gain from him? Is he just toying with Snape, passing false information to trip him up? Then again, whatever Voldemort may have thought about Snape by the beginning of HBP, I agree that his AK-ing of Dumbledore could cause Voldemort to re-evaluate his loyalties.
Tom is still right, though ... trust isn't even an issue with Voldemort. He doesn't understand it. Usefulness is more the issue with him. As soon as he is finished with someone, that person is toast.
HBP makes almost explicit, Snape loved Lily
I still don't get how this is "explicit." I think it is a possibility that he liked her--based on the Pensieve scene from OotP--but I don't see anything in HBP that really confirms it. Am I completely alone in this?
Solitaire
wynnleaf - Jun 10, 2006 10:04 am (#2416 of 2969)
Edited Jun 10, 2006 11:06 am
HBP makes almost explicit, Snape loved Lily
I still don't get how this is "explicit." I think it is a possibility that he liked her--based on the Pensieve scene from OotP--but I don't see anything in HBP that really confirms it. Am I completely alone in this?
I agree that it is not confirmed by HBP. However, based on what DD says in HBP, we are at this point left with practically no other alternative other than Snape loving or at least caring very strongly for Lily. DD said that Snape's greatest regret was what happened to the Potters and what caused him to turn toward DD. It is almost impossible to see DE Snape turning away from LV due to James' life being in danger through Snape's actions. That just leaves Lily as the motivation and cause of his great regret.
Others have said that Snape could have regretted putting James' life in danger due to the life debt. But really, we haven't seen the life debt that Pettigrew owes Harry causing him any major discomfort or causing him to re-evaluate his allegiances. Therefore I don't think we can necessarily assume that life debts hold such power over someone, particularly when there was such hatred between the two. In other words, it would have to be a powerful life debt force to overcome that degree of hatred Snape had for James. Yet Peter doesn't appear to hate Harry much at all and his life debt has not changed his actions so far. Hope that made sense.
Anyway, take the fact that DD said the danger to, and subsequent death of the Potters was Snape's greatest regret, and add that to the fact that Snape never criticized or even mentioned Lily to Harry, and it looks very strongly that Snape cared for her. Then HBP showed us that they had a strong common interest in potions. And last, the way JKR has Slughorn always attribute Harry's "talent" in potions to Lily, except just one time, when Slughorn was talking to Snape about it. That was the only time Slughorn didn't mention Lily. I could not think why JKR wouldn't have him mention Lily, except that she didn't want to have Snape interact with a character during the mention of Lily.
Catherine - Jun 10, 2006 10:17 am (#2417 of 2969)
Edited Jun 10, 2006 11:17 am
HBP makes almost explicit, Snape loved Lily
I still don't get how this is "explicit." I think it is a possibility that he liked her--based on the Pensieve scene from OotP--but I don't see anything in HBP that really confirms it. Am I completely alone in this?
No!
Ann - Jun 10, 2006 1:11 pm (#2418 of 2969)
Edited Jun 10, 2006 2:14 pm
I did say almost explicit.
Dumbledore says that discovering that his information had set Voldemort against the Potters was the greatest regret of his life. And he implies that it the reason he changed allegiances.
Snape (unless he is acting all the time and has been lying to Harry over six years in mentioning his father) hates James and would not be all that disturbed by his death.
Potters - James = Lily Q.E.D.
Discovering that his information had set Voldemort against Lily was the greatest regret of his life.
I think the fact that wynnleaf cited--that Slughorn omits mention of Lily only when Snape is present--is significant. On an authorial level, I think the fact that JKR has left Slughorn out of the scene where Harry says Snape didn't think much of his mother either is also significant. Had he been there, I think he would not have let it pass.
I agree also with wynnleaf's conclusion that Dumbledore trusts Snape, not because of a Vow or anything that is coercive, but because Dumbledore believes in the power of love. He believes that Snape would never go back to Voldemort because Voldemort has killed someone he loves. It's exactly the same reason Harry will always be against Voldemort. (Yet another Harry-Snape parallel.)
By the way, I think Voldemort "believed" Snape was the one who left him forever--not "believes." He changed his mind based on what Snape told him. He does not particularly distrust him now. And I think he will indeed honor Snape above all others, for a while anyway. That's the point.
TomProffitt - Jun 10, 2006 3:32 pm (#2419 of 2969)
"I still don't get how this is "explicit." I think it is a possibility that he liked her--based on the Pensieve scene from OotP--but I don't see anything in HBP that really confirms it. Am I completely alone in this?" --- Solitaire
No.
There is room to interpret scenes that way, but I don't see evidence that is the best interpretation.
We know via Dumbledore what Severus claimed as his reason for leaving the Death Eaters. This presumes Severus's honesty in that situation. It also presumes that Dumbledore did not (for reasons unknown) intentionally mislead Harry. It is quite possible Severus told the truth, but his remorse was not based on who was killed but that someone was killed. It was remorse because this was the first time that Severus's actions led to murder.
Killing other people is not normal behavior. People have to learn how to kill. I don't mean how to pull the trigger, but how to choose to pull the trigger. No matter how cruel you are it can be a difficult choice, witness Draco on the tower.
I cannot discount the possibility that Snape loved Lily, but there is scant evidence for me to assign it anything other than an outside chance. (of course my tendancy is to discount the honesty of his claims of remorse)
Die Zimtzicke - Jun 10, 2006 3:53 pm (#2420 of 2969)
I never thought Snape was the Death Eater Voldemort felt had left him forever. If Voldemort told Snape to go to Hogwarts in the first place, then Snape was exactly where Voldemort expected him to be that night. I always suspected it was Karkaroff the dark Lord was referring to.
I really think the fact that Snape did not just leave Harry at the shack where he could possibly be killed by either Sirius or Lupin in werewolf form, shows he was still protecting Harry.
He could always go in afterwards, find dead Harry, and say, "Sorry, I got there too late" just as Lockhart planned to do in the chamber.
journeymom - Jun 10, 2006 4:32 pm (#2421 of 2969)
"HBP makes almost explicit, Snape loved Lily."
"I still don't get how this is "explicit." I think it is a possibility that he liked her--based on the Pensieve scene from OotP--but I don't see anything in HBP that really confirms it. Am I completely alone in this?"
I think by the end of HBP Jo has made about 50-50 odds that Snape cared for Lily, if only as a friend; it can go either way. I think there's another possible way that proves to Dumbledore beyond doubt that he can trust Snape. Perhaps Snape performed an unbreakable vow with Lily promising to protect Harry. He wouldn't have to Love Lily in order to do this, he could simply regret that his actions have set Voldemort on the Potters. Whatever Snape is, I don't think he's a complete monster like Voldemort. The strength of my argument comes in literary symmetry. In "Spinner's End" we're introduced to the concept of the UV and we see a desperate Narcissa beg Snape to protect Draco from LV. Draco's and Harry's lives have contrasted through out the stories. It's not too much of a stretch to think that we're supposed to see that what happened between Narcissa and Snape happened 17 or so years prior between Lily and Snape.
wynnleaf - Jun 10, 2006 6:08 pm (#2422 of 2969)
Edited Jun 10, 2006 7:10 pm
journeymom,
I suppose that DD could truly "trust" Snape based not on Snape's being coerced by Vow, but by Snape's willingness to take such a vow to protect Harry. Still, there'd have to be 1. a reason Lily would ask Snape of all people, to make such a vow and 2. a reason why she would even consider him willing to do it and 3. a reason for why he'd do it. All presume a strong degree of care between them.
I cannot discount the possibility that Snape loved Lily, but there is scant evidence for me to assign it anything other than an outside chance. (of course my tendency is to discount the honesty of his claims of remorse)
Thing is, it was fairly obvious that DD hadn't told Harry the whole story in why he trusted Snape. Yet he did tell him part, and that only because Harry brought Trelawney's story of Snape and the prophecy to DD, demanding answers. And the part he gave was the remorse Snape had.
DD never trusted Tom Riddle, in spite of all of Riddles pretensions of honesty and "I'm a good kid" acts that certainly won over the other professors at the time. It's pretty doubtful then that -- with far, far more reasons to suspect Snape -- he'd trust him solely because he claimed he was remorseful. If DD was that foolish, Harry has no business trusting him for anything else, much less his opinion of Snape.
Solitaire - Jun 10, 2006 6:14 pm (#2423 of 2969)
Edited Jun 10, 2006 7:19 pm
Well, while I will admit it is a possibility--just as I think it is a possibility that all of the Marauders were a tiny bit in love with Lily--I do not really see anything in the book that leads me to think it. I am, however, rereading, so I might change my mind.
I will say that Lily going behind James's back to make an unbreakable vow with Snape--and I believe that is the only way it could have happened--seems unlikely to me. But I am wrong a lot! LOL
Edit: It's pretty doubtful then that -- with far, far more reasons to suspect Snape -- he'd trust him solely because he claimed he was remorseful. If DD was that foolish, Harry has no business trusting him for anything else, much less his opinion of Snape.
But that is the reason Dumbledore gives Harry for trusting Snape ... and he expects Harry to trust Snape.
Solitaire
Mediwitch - Jun 10, 2006 6:57 pm (#2424 of 2969)
Die Zimtzieke - I never thought Snape was the Death Eater Voldemort felt had left him forever.
I'm sure this was discussed in minute detail here, but I just wanted to say that I agree. I think it's possible that LV considered Snape the "one too cowardly" to return, and that is partially why Snape reacts so strongly to Harry calling him a coward.
Holly T. - Jun 10, 2006 7:05 pm (#2425 of 2969)
I thought Karkaroff was the one too cowardly to return.
Solitaire - Jun 10, 2006 7:34 pm (#2426 of 2969)
Since Karkaroff fled, I assumed he was the coward, too, Holly.
Saracene - Jun 10, 2006 9:09 pm (#2427 of 2969)
It never really occurred to me to think that perhaps Snape was the "coward" LV referred to; I always thought that he referred to Karkaroff since he was the one who fled and the one who had pointed too many fingers during the DE trials. On the other hand, Snape himself told Bellatrix that the Dark Lord had thought that Snape turned Dumbledore's stooge and that was why LV didn't turn to him for help in the first book. So I think it makes sense that LV would think that Snape left him forever.
I don't think however that LV ever considered that Snape's deflection to the good side could have been genuine - i.e., that he wasn't working for Dumbledore because it suited him and gave him protection and a comfortable job. I think he'd be more likely to think that Snape was simply playing loyal for his own gain.
Solitaire - Jun 10, 2006 9:36 pm (#2428 of 2969)
I think he'd be more likely to think that Snape was simply playing loyal for his own gain.
Well, that is the Slytherin way, isn't it?
Ann - Jun 11, 2006 7:06 am (#2429 of 2969)
Edited Jun 11, 2006 8:08 am
I don't think Dumbledore would have asked Snape to make an Unbreakable Vow, and I find that an unrealistic element in a lot of fanfiction. An Unbreakable Vow is just that: it can't ever be broken, by any of the participants, and it can easily lead to the death of the one who makes the Vow by a mistake or an unforeseen circumstance that makes its fulfillment impossible. If it were possible to just cancel it, Arthur Weasley wouldn't have gone nuts when he caught Fred & George (age 7) trying to get Ron (age 5) to make one.
So I think the Vow is a Really Big Deal. You can see that from Bella's reaction when Snape agrees to make it. And I think Snape makes it only because he thinks that it's worth it strategically--he wants to protect Draco, and the last stipulation... well, I think he's already discussed this possibility with Dumbledore after the arm incident. It's possible that he doesn't know what he's Vowing, and is willing to die rather if it turns out to be, say, kill Potter; but in either case it's a huge gamble and one for which Snape is putting up very high stakes. And I think he wins Bella's faith here (if probably never her affection).
Dumbledore would never have asked him to do such at thing. And I think Voldemort would be extremely angry to know that he's risked his life in this way. (Snape's life belongs to him, damn it!) Such coercive magic leaves them very little wiggle room.
wynnleaf - Jun 11, 2006 8:17 am (#2430 of 2969)
In addition to what Ann said, which I completely agree with, I doubt if Lily would have asked for that either. Even though we don't really know much at all about her personality, I doubt she was the type of person who would have asked someone to commit their life in that way.
Solitaire - Jun 11, 2006 8:27 am (#2431 of 2969)
Lily knew how James felt about Snape. I can't see her bringing him that deeply into their personal business. JM2K ...
Solitaire
journeymom - Jun 11, 2006 10:05 am (#2432 of 2969)
I wish we knew more about Lily and why she got together with James. While I'm not going to push my Lily/Snape Unbreakable Vow theory much, I'll make one more point. James didn't think it was necessary to make Dumbledore their secret keeper. Perhaps Lily thought that was unwise. If Snape came to Lily to warn her that Voldemort was targeting them (he would avoid visiting when James was there) I can see her, as a desperate young mother, asking her old potions lab partner Snape to do whatever is in his capacity to look after Harry should she and James die.
That said, I'm not comfortable with Lily requiring a UV from Snape either, except that she's a mother, and that I do understand. This is a scenario I can see happening, though I'm not attached to it. Well, I do like it! I'd love 'to be right' when Book 7 comes out!
Mediwitch - Jun 11, 2006 10:21 am (#2433 of 2969)
Saracene: It never really occurred to me to think that perhaps Snape was the "coward" LV referred to; I always thought that he referred to Karkaroff since he was the one who fled and the one who had pointed too many fingers during the DE trials.
It never really occurred to me until very recently. I also thought Karkaroff was the coward, but that also seems so obvious that I began to wonder. Of course, I am rarely ever right about these things!
Solitaire - Jun 11, 2006 10:53 am (#2434 of 2969)
Edited Jun 11, 2006 11:53 am
If Snape came to Lily to warn her
I always figured Snape told Dumbledore and he told the Potters. I've always kind of had the impression that James and Lily worked very much in tandem at whatever they did. I really am only basing that feeling on what the prophecy said, about "them" escaping him thrice--as though they were a single target.
Solitaire
journeymom - Jun 11, 2006 1:59 pm (#2435 of 2969)
Solitaire, I always figured the same thing, that Dd told the Potters, not Snape. I'm just speculating how to make my Snape/Lily UV scenario work. And I see Lily and James working together also.
wynnleaf - Jun 11, 2006 2:05 pm (#2436 of 2969)
I agree with Solitaire, that Snape probably warned DD and DD took the warning to James and Lily.
However, here's a possibility -- supposing that Snape really cared about Lily (could be friendship), and was really concerned that "arrogant" James wasn't taking his warning about a spy among their close friends. What if Snape went to Lily and offered to help, with an Unbreakable Vow as a guarantee of the veracity of his warnings and his commitment.
While I still don't think DD's trust in Snape had anything to do with an Unbreakable Vow, if there were such a Vow, that sort of scenario could make sense without having any of the "good" characters asking or demanding such a Vow from anyone.
journeymom - Jun 11, 2006 2:29 pm (#2437 of 2969)
So wynnleaf, are you speculating that, in this scenario, Snape offered the UV but Lily refused? That could work.
Catherine - Jun 11, 2006 3:31 pm (#2438 of 2969)
So wynnleaf, are you speculating that, in this scenario, Snape offered the UV but Lily refused? That could work.
Possibly.
Perhaps I am a traditional Witch, but I worry about taking Unbreakable Vows with someone whom you are NOT married or otherwise obligated to. Arthur's uncharasteristic fury speaks volumes...
I feel like we don't know enough about Unbreakable Vows to understand the obligation, and or the connections....
Solitaire - Jun 11, 2006 4:24 pm (#2439 of 2969)
Edited Jun 11, 2006 5:25 pm
I still feel pretty much as Catherine does, Wynnleaf. Lily was married to James. Putting myself in James's place ... if my spouse secretly performed something as binding and obligating as an unbreakable vow with someone I truly hated, I would consider it a betrayal of gargantuan proportions. It would be tantamount to agreeing with this enemy about my shortcomings and admitting I was ineffective and arrogant--something that is incredibly disloyal. I just cannot see Lily doing something this hurtful.
Solitaire
Ann - Jun 11, 2006 6:56 pm (#2440 of 2969)
Edited Jun 11, 2006 7:57 pm
Solitaire, I don't think it would be a betrayal if Snape was doing the Vowing--if Lily made a Vow without James' knowledge, that would be another (and far more shameful) thing altogether. After all, in such a case, she'd be risking her own life. But Snape is (as far as we know) unattached, so he wouldn't have been betraying anyone.
And he certainly doesn't see the Vow he does make as a betrayal of Lucius. (And if there were any social tendency to see things that way, surely he would have grabbed at it. And Narcissa clearly doesn't feel it is any betrayal of her own marriage to ask the vow of Snape, nor is Bella at all shocked.
That said, I don't think the Vow with Lily happened. I don't think she'd ask it. She might have asked him to promise--I think a man like Snape would find such a promise even more compelling. But, simply because it relied on his honor rather than his fear of death, such a request would be more personal, and perhaps something she wouldn't want to do without James' knowledge.
wynnleaf - Jun 11, 2006 7:26 pm (#2441 of 2969)
Solitaire,
I tend to agree with you, but Ann also had a good point with the vow Snape made for Narcissa. I think Narcissa seems pretty committed to Lucius (hard to imagine, but here you are). Yet she doesn't seem to see anything untoward with Snape making this vow to her. Of course, Lucius was in Azkaban, so perhaps that's a difference.
Rea - Jun 12, 2006 9:35 am (#2442 of 2969)
Maybe I'm wrong, but you need a third party if you want to do an UV... So we should have a third party also in Lily/Snape vow, and I can't find anyone.
SilverMoonLady - Jun 12, 2006 9:47 am (#2443 of 2969)
Assuming that the Snape-loved-Lily theory pans out, I can well imagine how seeing her eyes gazing out from Harry's face (so like James, by all the evidence) must have stirred some pretty deep and conflicting emotions in him; one might even extrapolate a world of guilt, blame and anger surging up, making his initial and continuing reaction to Harry so strong - here is the walking reminder not only of school-days torment, but of a love lost by his own actions.
Hmmm, a most angst-ridden possibility. We shall have to see if Book 7 bears any of our speculations out! Oooh, the vicarious thrill of literature!
Sil
Solitaire - Jun 12, 2006 11:14 am (#2444 of 2969)
Wynnleaf, the situations of Narcissa and Lily are completely different. Lucius and Snape are friends; James and Snape were enemies. I can't even begin to compare them.
Ann, the very nature of this kind of vow still makes me consider it a terrible betrayal. It would really diminish my opinion of Lily and her love for James. I hope it didn't happen.
Solitaire
wynnleaf - Jun 12, 2006 11:32 am (#2445 of 2969)
Edited Jun 12, 2006 12:36 pm
Wynnleaf, the situations of Narcissa and Lily are completely different. Lucius and Snape are friends; James and Snape were enemies. I can't even begin to compare them.
Ann, the very nature of this kind of vow still makes me consider it a terrible betrayal. It would really diminish my opinion of Lily and her love for James. I hope it didn't happen.
Well, I'm sorry I so misunderstood you. I thought you meant that "the very nature of this kind of vow" was what was such a betrayal -- for any married person to commit to with another person without the knowledge of their spouse. So basically, what you're saying is that it's not the nature of the vow itself that's the problem (since it's okay for Narcissa to make one, regardless of being married to Lucius), but the fact that James and Snape were enemies, which would make Lily's going into such a vow a betrayal. Actually, since it doesn't commit her to a single thing, I'm not so certain it's a betrayal, but that's certainly debatable.
I think the spousal betrayal idea is a concern regardless of whether we're talking about a vow or any other kind of relationship. If Lily and Severus were friends, would she have continued that friendship after marrying someone who was at such enmity with her husband? It's hard to say.
One thing we don't know, and may never find out, is the degree to which the hate between James and Severus continued between the time Snape left Hogwarts and James' death. Did it continue unabated? Or did they act somewhat more mature about it for awhile, but Severus' hate rekindled when James refused to take the warning about a spy among his friends and he and Lily died as a result? We really don't know. For instance, it's possible that James and Lily, as part of the Order, knew that Snape was a spy for Dumbledore (the current Order in Harry's time knows, after all). It could be that there had been a lessening of open discord for a year or so, making it possible for Lily and Snape to have a friendship. It is also possible that James would not want to break up a friendship of his wife's over a school time grudge.
The thing is, we know that James and Severus carried on their grudge after school. We don't the degree to which they continued to be enemies until James' death.
If it turns out that there was some sort of strong caring feeling that Snape had toward Lily, it makes a great deal of sense that his hatred of James would have greatly intensified after James disregarded the warning and he and Lily were both killed. This could make it appear, at this point, that his hatred/grudge had remained exactly the same since school days, but it's possible that there was a brief year or so when they were both in the Order before the Potter's deaths when it was at least in part set aside.
I'm not saying this is my theory. I'm just saying we don't know and it's a possibility.
Solitaire - Jun 12, 2006 11:58 am (#2446 of 2969)
Wynnleaf, it is the nature of the vow that would (for me only, I see) make it such a betrayal in Lily's case, because of the hatred between James and Snape. Since Lucius and Snape are friends, I think the case is different. I almost think Lucius might expect Snape to help out Narcissa, given their friendship.
Since the whole issue of a Lily-Snape Vow is pure speculation anyway, I am not going to belabor my feelings any further. I was simply explaining in what light I would consider my spouse's actions had he taken such a step with an enemy of mine. You obviously do not share my sensibilities on this issue, and that's okay. If there were never any disagreement on anything, the forum wouldn't last too long, would it?
Solitaire
Magic Words - Jun 12, 2006 12:32 pm (#2447 of 2969)
I'll say right off that I don't think a Lily-Snape Vow is very likely, although I guess it's not impossible. My take on their relationship was that it essentially ended after Snape called her a Mudblood. Even if it didn't end abruptly at that point, they would have drifted apart anyway as he pursued Dark Arts and she took up with James. By the time Snape goes to Dumbledore after the prophecy, Lily is pretty firmly on James's side. It would be Snape who remembered (and still regretted losing) her friendship.
wynnleaf - Jun 12, 2006 1:29 pm (#2448 of 2969)
Edited Jun 12, 2006 2:33 pm
The biggest reason I don't think an Unbreakable Vow was involved was that, to me, an Unbreakable Vow has nothing to do with trust. Narcissa and Bella wanted to force Snape's hand; that's why they asked for the vow. If Lily had ever asked Snape to gaurd Harry in the event of she and James' death, it would presumably be because she trusted him, in which case she wouldn't need a Vow. If he offered the Vow, the offer alone shows the commitment, and once again, if she didn't trust him in the first place, she wouldn't want him protecting her son. And if she did, there's no need for a Vow.
This is the same point I've made with the idea of Snape making a Vow to DD. DD "trusts" Snape. Snape is therefore not coerced by a Vow to serve with the Order or for DD.
I was simply explaining in what light I would consider my spouse's actions had he taken such a step with an enemy of mine. You obviously do not share my sensibilities on this issue, and that's okay.
Solitaire, I'd like to drop this issue of the Vow, but must clarify one thing. I certainly do not think that it is okay for a committed spouse to make a secret agreement with her spouses' enemy!
TomProffitt - Jun 12, 2006 2:18 pm (#2449 of 2969)
Edited Jun 12, 2006 3:20 pm
I personally believe that the evidence of A Snape-Lily relationship is very thin. How often are the two mentioned together in the same conversation? How often have we seem them together?
We really only have two examples of their relationship together. First we know that Severus hated her husband and felt he owed him a life debt. And second we witnessed her interaction in Severus's memory.
While the possibility of them having a relationship is open to possibility there is only circumstantial evidence which can easily be interpreted in another manner. What evidence do we have that they even knew each others' names? We don't know for certain that they were in the same year (maybe we do, I'm not sure) or that they had any classes together. Edit: Yes, we do know they were in the same year, so they would have know each from NEWT Potions at least.
Edit again: I guess what I'm asking is what non-circumstantial evidence do we have for a relationship of any sort (other than classmates) do we have?
SilverMoonLady - Jun 12, 2006 2:28 pm (#2450 of 2969)
I don't think we'll find text evidence of a *relationship* - but the possibility of Snape having feelings for Lily (probably unrequited) beyond that of a classmate... well, I'm on the fence. In terms of plotting and character development, it is a valid path to take; there are some small clues which can be interpreted that way (as discussed above by many).
But no, nothing written in stone yet exists.
Edited Jun 10, 2006 7:52 am
So you do not believe Snape is the DE whom Voldemort believes "has left me forever" and will be killed? Just wondering ...
I do think that Voldemort was referring to Snape, Solitaire. Snape actually confirms this by quoting the line at the beginning of HBP, as FawkesEgg points out. But, as he also says in that chapter, Voldemort appreciated, when Snape returned to him (two hours late, sent by Dumbledore), that Snape has carefully preserved the facade of loyalty to Dumbledore that he had ordered him to create, and that he is now perfectly positioned to serve him as a spy (since Moody/Crouch is gone). Snape explained, and Voldemort accepted his explanation and forgave him his minor tardiness. As Snape himself points out in that chapter, Bella's fanatic loyalty is unaccompanied by much else in the way of advantages.
I think Snape's explanation of his current (fall 1996) relationship with Voldemort in that chapter is pretty close to the truth. After all, who else is there who hasn't failed him? Lucius? Avery? Rookwood? Bella herself? All were involved in the fiasco at the DoM, and, except Bella, all are in prison. Wormtail has been faithful and useful, but he's a fugitive and annowing (and I suspect Muggle-born). If the picture Snape paints were a huge exaggeration, Bella would find it merely laughable; but it obviously fits with what she knows, because it worries her. Even she admits that the Dark Lord trusts him, even though she thinks he's wrong to do so.
Voldemort knows that Snape is a valuable ally and a useful spy--he knows Dumbledore thinks Snape is spying for him, but he thinks Dumbledore is too trusting and wrong--a fool who was taken in by Snape's pretended remorse. Snape is the best Voldemort has (look at the "Flight of the Prince" chapter), and I think Voldemort knows it. I think he even gave him a chance to explain himself. He's not stupid--and to kill such a potential ally without giving him a chance to explain himself would be stupid.
What he doesn't understand, of course, is love. And if, as I think HBP makes almost explicit, Snape loved Lily, he could never truly serve her murderer. But Voldemort has a blind spot there, and wouldn't see any reason why he couldn't. Dumbledore, however, understands, and it's why he trusts Snape. That's what I think.
Magic Words - Jun 10, 2006 7:08 am (#2412 of 2969)
Even if Voldemort was planning to kill Snape on sight or after some brief gloating, the fact that Snape returned of his own accord probably threw him off. He knew Snape as a Death Eater and Slytherin, and would probably think that while Snape might try to get out of DE-ship, he wouldn't risk his life to resume his spy status against Voldemort, therefore, his return must be sincere.
wynnleaf - Jun 10, 2006 7:59 am (#2413 of 2969)
Ann and Magic Words,
Very good points. I think the best evidence that those ideas are correct is Bella's response. She does not trust Snape, but it's pretty obvious that she's frustrated that LV does trust Snape, at least a lot more than Bella thinks he should. And when Snape gives his reasons for why LV didn't kill him in the graveyard (or where ever they met up), Bella accepts that. Not that she trusts Snape any more after his explanations, but she does seem to accept that these are the likely reasons for LV's acceptance of Snape.
As to whether or not LV would eventually intend to kill Snape, I think he is always probably prepared to kill anyone that is no longer useful and is a liability. He'd keep Snape around as long as he could use him. But I've wondered if Snape's AKing of DD might, in the short run, gain him more status with LV, but in the long run cause LV to distrust him even more and grow concerned about what Snape would do if he was working for himself.
Also, I don't think LV works on any sort of real "trust" level. He doesn't trust anyone really.
On the other hand, I expect that DD's trust is true trust. He uses that word over and over in relation to Snape. Therefore I doubt if his trust in Snape is based on any sort of vow, etc. as that wouldn't engender "trust," being more of a coercion.
journeymom - Jun 10, 2006 8:50 am (#2414 of 2969)
"On the other hand, I expect that DD's trust is true trust. He uses that word over and over in relation to Snape. Therefore I doubt if his trust in Snape is based on any sort of vow, etc. as that wouldn't engender "trust," being more of a coercion."
Absolutely. I'm almost certain Dd didn't require a Vow from Snape.
Solitaire - Jun 10, 2006 8:58 am (#2415 of 2969)
Voldemort likes to gloat before he kills
He never learns, does he? Let's hope he never does! This little quirk of Voldemort's is always what has allowed Harry to escape his clutches.
Snape is the best Voldemort has
Alas, this is too true, whether he is still unsure of Snape or thinks Snape may still be his disciple. Snape is focused and calculating, particularly when compared to a hot-headed loose cannon like Bella. If, however, Voldemort truly believes Snape has left him forever, he must suspect Snape of working for the other side. What can he hope to gain from him? Is he just toying with Snape, passing false information to trip him up? Then again, whatever Voldemort may have thought about Snape by the beginning of HBP, I agree that his AK-ing of Dumbledore could cause Voldemort to re-evaluate his loyalties.
Tom is still right, though ... trust isn't even an issue with Voldemort. He doesn't understand it. Usefulness is more the issue with him. As soon as he is finished with someone, that person is toast.
HBP makes almost explicit, Snape loved Lily
I still don't get how this is "explicit." I think it is a possibility that he liked her--based on the Pensieve scene from OotP--but I don't see anything in HBP that really confirms it. Am I completely alone in this?
Solitaire
wynnleaf - Jun 10, 2006 10:04 am (#2416 of 2969)
Edited Jun 10, 2006 11:06 am
HBP makes almost explicit, Snape loved Lily
I still don't get how this is "explicit." I think it is a possibility that he liked her--based on the Pensieve scene from OotP--but I don't see anything in HBP that really confirms it. Am I completely alone in this?
I agree that it is not confirmed by HBP. However, based on what DD says in HBP, we are at this point left with practically no other alternative other than Snape loving or at least caring very strongly for Lily. DD said that Snape's greatest regret was what happened to the Potters and what caused him to turn toward DD. It is almost impossible to see DE Snape turning away from LV due to James' life being in danger through Snape's actions. That just leaves Lily as the motivation and cause of his great regret.
Others have said that Snape could have regretted putting James' life in danger due to the life debt. But really, we haven't seen the life debt that Pettigrew owes Harry causing him any major discomfort or causing him to re-evaluate his allegiances. Therefore I don't think we can necessarily assume that life debts hold such power over someone, particularly when there was such hatred between the two. In other words, it would have to be a powerful life debt force to overcome that degree of hatred Snape had for James. Yet Peter doesn't appear to hate Harry much at all and his life debt has not changed his actions so far. Hope that made sense.
Anyway, take the fact that DD said the danger to, and subsequent death of the Potters was Snape's greatest regret, and add that to the fact that Snape never criticized or even mentioned Lily to Harry, and it looks very strongly that Snape cared for her. Then HBP showed us that they had a strong common interest in potions. And last, the way JKR has Slughorn always attribute Harry's "talent" in potions to Lily, except just one time, when Slughorn was talking to Snape about it. That was the only time Slughorn didn't mention Lily. I could not think why JKR wouldn't have him mention Lily, except that she didn't want to have Snape interact with a character during the mention of Lily.
Catherine - Jun 10, 2006 10:17 am (#2417 of 2969)
Edited Jun 10, 2006 11:17 am
HBP makes almost explicit, Snape loved Lily
I still don't get how this is "explicit." I think it is a possibility that he liked her--based on the Pensieve scene from OotP--but I don't see anything in HBP that really confirms it. Am I completely alone in this?
No!
Ann - Jun 10, 2006 1:11 pm (#2418 of 2969)
Edited Jun 10, 2006 2:14 pm
I did say almost explicit.
Dumbledore says that discovering that his information had set Voldemort against the Potters was the greatest regret of his life. And he implies that it the reason he changed allegiances.
Snape (unless he is acting all the time and has been lying to Harry over six years in mentioning his father) hates James and would not be all that disturbed by his death.
Potters - James = Lily Q.E.D.
Discovering that his information had set Voldemort against Lily was the greatest regret of his life.
I think the fact that wynnleaf cited--that Slughorn omits mention of Lily only when Snape is present--is significant. On an authorial level, I think the fact that JKR has left Slughorn out of the scene where Harry says Snape didn't think much of his mother either is also significant. Had he been there, I think he would not have let it pass.
I agree also with wynnleaf's conclusion that Dumbledore trusts Snape, not because of a Vow or anything that is coercive, but because Dumbledore believes in the power of love. He believes that Snape would never go back to Voldemort because Voldemort has killed someone he loves. It's exactly the same reason Harry will always be against Voldemort. (Yet another Harry-Snape parallel.)
By the way, I think Voldemort "believed" Snape was the one who left him forever--not "believes." He changed his mind based on what Snape told him. He does not particularly distrust him now. And I think he will indeed honor Snape above all others, for a while anyway. That's the point.
TomProffitt - Jun 10, 2006 3:32 pm (#2419 of 2969)
"I still don't get how this is "explicit." I think it is a possibility that he liked her--based on the Pensieve scene from OotP--but I don't see anything in HBP that really confirms it. Am I completely alone in this?" --- Solitaire
No.
There is room to interpret scenes that way, but I don't see evidence that is the best interpretation.
We know via Dumbledore what Severus claimed as his reason for leaving the Death Eaters. This presumes Severus's honesty in that situation. It also presumes that Dumbledore did not (for reasons unknown) intentionally mislead Harry. It is quite possible Severus told the truth, but his remorse was not based on who was killed but that someone was killed. It was remorse because this was the first time that Severus's actions led to murder.
Killing other people is not normal behavior. People have to learn how to kill. I don't mean how to pull the trigger, but how to choose to pull the trigger. No matter how cruel you are it can be a difficult choice, witness Draco on the tower.
I cannot discount the possibility that Snape loved Lily, but there is scant evidence for me to assign it anything other than an outside chance. (of course my tendancy is to discount the honesty of his claims of remorse)
Die Zimtzicke - Jun 10, 2006 3:53 pm (#2420 of 2969)
I never thought Snape was the Death Eater Voldemort felt had left him forever. If Voldemort told Snape to go to Hogwarts in the first place, then Snape was exactly where Voldemort expected him to be that night. I always suspected it was Karkaroff the dark Lord was referring to.
I really think the fact that Snape did not just leave Harry at the shack where he could possibly be killed by either Sirius or Lupin in werewolf form, shows he was still protecting Harry.
He could always go in afterwards, find dead Harry, and say, "Sorry, I got there too late" just as Lockhart planned to do in the chamber.
journeymom - Jun 10, 2006 4:32 pm (#2421 of 2969)
"HBP makes almost explicit, Snape loved Lily."
"I still don't get how this is "explicit." I think it is a possibility that he liked her--based on the Pensieve scene from OotP--but I don't see anything in HBP that really confirms it. Am I completely alone in this?"
I think by the end of HBP Jo has made about 50-50 odds that Snape cared for Lily, if only as a friend; it can go either way. I think there's another possible way that proves to Dumbledore beyond doubt that he can trust Snape. Perhaps Snape performed an unbreakable vow with Lily promising to protect Harry. He wouldn't have to Love Lily in order to do this, he could simply regret that his actions have set Voldemort on the Potters. Whatever Snape is, I don't think he's a complete monster like Voldemort. The strength of my argument comes in literary symmetry. In "Spinner's End" we're introduced to the concept of the UV and we see a desperate Narcissa beg Snape to protect Draco from LV. Draco's and Harry's lives have contrasted through out the stories. It's not too much of a stretch to think that we're supposed to see that what happened between Narcissa and Snape happened 17 or so years prior between Lily and Snape.
wynnleaf - Jun 10, 2006 6:08 pm (#2422 of 2969)
Edited Jun 10, 2006 7:10 pm
journeymom,
I suppose that DD could truly "trust" Snape based not on Snape's being coerced by Vow, but by Snape's willingness to take such a vow to protect Harry. Still, there'd have to be 1. a reason Lily would ask Snape of all people, to make such a vow and 2. a reason why she would even consider him willing to do it and 3. a reason for why he'd do it. All presume a strong degree of care between them.
I cannot discount the possibility that Snape loved Lily, but there is scant evidence for me to assign it anything other than an outside chance. (of course my tendency is to discount the honesty of his claims of remorse)
Thing is, it was fairly obvious that DD hadn't told Harry the whole story in why he trusted Snape. Yet he did tell him part, and that only because Harry brought Trelawney's story of Snape and the prophecy to DD, demanding answers. And the part he gave was the remorse Snape had.
DD never trusted Tom Riddle, in spite of all of Riddles pretensions of honesty and "I'm a good kid" acts that certainly won over the other professors at the time. It's pretty doubtful then that -- with far, far more reasons to suspect Snape -- he'd trust him solely because he claimed he was remorseful. If DD was that foolish, Harry has no business trusting him for anything else, much less his opinion of Snape.
Solitaire - Jun 10, 2006 6:14 pm (#2423 of 2969)
Edited Jun 10, 2006 7:19 pm
Well, while I will admit it is a possibility--just as I think it is a possibility that all of the Marauders were a tiny bit in love with Lily--I do not really see anything in the book that leads me to think it. I am, however, rereading, so I might change my mind.
I will say that Lily going behind James's back to make an unbreakable vow with Snape--and I believe that is the only way it could have happened--seems unlikely to me. But I am wrong a lot! LOL
Edit: It's pretty doubtful then that -- with far, far more reasons to suspect Snape -- he'd trust him solely because he claimed he was remorseful. If DD was that foolish, Harry has no business trusting him for anything else, much less his opinion of Snape.
But that is the reason Dumbledore gives Harry for trusting Snape ... and he expects Harry to trust Snape.
Solitaire
Mediwitch - Jun 10, 2006 6:57 pm (#2424 of 2969)
Die Zimtzieke - I never thought Snape was the Death Eater Voldemort felt had left him forever.
I'm sure this was discussed in minute detail here, but I just wanted to say that I agree. I think it's possible that LV considered Snape the "one too cowardly" to return, and that is partially why Snape reacts so strongly to Harry calling him a coward.
Holly T. - Jun 10, 2006 7:05 pm (#2425 of 2969)
I thought Karkaroff was the one too cowardly to return.
Solitaire - Jun 10, 2006 7:34 pm (#2426 of 2969)
Since Karkaroff fled, I assumed he was the coward, too, Holly.
Saracene - Jun 10, 2006 9:09 pm (#2427 of 2969)
It never really occurred to me to think that perhaps Snape was the "coward" LV referred to; I always thought that he referred to Karkaroff since he was the one who fled and the one who had pointed too many fingers during the DE trials. On the other hand, Snape himself told Bellatrix that the Dark Lord had thought that Snape turned Dumbledore's stooge and that was why LV didn't turn to him for help in the first book. So I think it makes sense that LV would think that Snape left him forever.
I don't think however that LV ever considered that Snape's deflection to the good side could have been genuine - i.e., that he wasn't working for Dumbledore because it suited him and gave him protection and a comfortable job. I think he'd be more likely to think that Snape was simply playing loyal for his own gain.
Solitaire - Jun 10, 2006 9:36 pm (#2428 of 2969)
I think he'd be more likely to think that Snape was simply playing loyal for his own gain.
Well, that is the Slytherin way, isn't it?
Ann - Jun 11, 2006 7:06 am (#2429 of 2969)
Edited Jun 11, 2006 8:08 am
I don't think Dumbledore would have asked Snape to make an Unbreakable Vow, and I find that an unrealistic element in a lot of fanfiction. An Unbreakable Vow is just that: it can't ever be broken, by any of the participants, and it can easily lead to the death of the one who makes the Vow by a mistake or an unforeseen circumstance that makes its fulfillment impossible. If it were possible to just cancel it, Arthur Weasley wouldn't have gone nuts when he caught Fred & George (age 7) trying to get Ron (age 5) to make one.
So I think the Vow is a Really Big Deal. You can see that from Bella's reaction when Snape agrees to make it. And I think Snape makes it only because he thinks that it's worth it strategically--he wants to protect Draco, and the last stipulation... well, I think he's already discussed this possibility with Dumbledore after the arm incident. It's possible that he doesn't know what he's Vowing, and is willing to die rather if it turns out to be, say, kill Potter; but in either case it's a huge gamble and one for which Snape is putting up very high stakes. And I think he wins Bella's faith here (if probably never her affection).
Dumbledore would never have asked him to do such at thing. And I think Voldemort would be extremely angry to know that he's risked his life in this way. (Snape's life belongs to him, damn it!) Such coercive magic leaves them very little wiggle room.
wynnleaf - Jun 11, 2006 8:17 am (#2430 of 2969)
In addition to what Ann said, which I completely agree with, I doubt if Lily would have asked for that either. Even though we don't really know much at all about her personality, I doubt she was the type of person who would have asked someone to commit their life in that way.
Solitaire - Jun 11, 2006 8:27 am (#2431 of 2969)
Lily knew how James felt about Snape. I can't see her bringing him that deeply into their personal business. JM2K ...
Solitaire
journeymom - Jun 11, 2006 10:05 am (#2432 of 2969)
I wish we knew more about Lily and why she got together with James. While I'm not going to push my Lily/Snape Unbreakable Vow theory much, I'll make one more point. James didn't think it was necessary to make Dumbledore their secret keeper. Perhaps Lily thought that was unwise. If Snape came to Lily to warn her that Voldemort was targeting them (he would avoid visiting when James was there) I can see her, as a desperate young mother, asking her old potions lab partner Snape to do whatever is in his capacity to look after Harry should she and James die.
That said, I'm not comfortable with Lily requiring a UV from Snape either, except that she's a mother, and that I do understand. This is a scenario I can see happening, though I'm not attached to it. Well, I do like it! I'd love 'to be right' when Book 7 comes out!
Mediwitch - Jun 11, 2006 10:21 am (#2433 of 2969)
Saracene: It never really occurred to me to think that perhaps Snape was the "coward" LV referred to; I always thought that he referred to Karkaroff since he was the one who fled and the one who had pointed too many fingers during the DE trials.
It never really occurred to me until very recently. I also thought Karkaroff was the coward, but that also seems so obvious that I began to wonder. Of course, I am rarely ever right about these things!
Solitaire - Jun 11, 2006 10:53 am (#2434 of 2969)
Edited Jun 11, 2006 11:53 am
If Snape came to Lily to warn her
I always figured Snape told Dumbledore and he told the Potters. I've always kind of had the impression that James and Lily worked very much in tandem at whatever they did. I really am only basing that feeling on what the prophecy said, about "them" escaping him thrice--as though they were a single target.
Solitaire
journeymom - Jun 11, 2006 1:59 pm (#2435 of 2969)
Solitaire, I always figured the same thing, that Dd told the Potters, not Snape. I'm just speculating how to make my Snape/Lily UV scenario work. And I see Lily and James working together also.
wynnleaf - Jun 11, 2006 2:05 pm (#2436 of 2969)
I agree with Solitaire, that Snape probably warned DD and DD took the warning to James and Lily.
However, here's a possibility -- supposing that Snape really cared about Lily (could be friendship), and was really concerned that "arrogant" James wasn't taking his warning about a spy among their close friends. What if Snape went to Lily and offered to help, with an Unbreakable Vow as a guarantee of the veracity of his warnings and his commitment.
While I still don't think DD's trust in Snape had anything to do with an Unbreakable Vow, if there were such a Vow, that sort of scenario could make sense without having any of the "good" characters asking or demanding such a Vow from anyone.
journeymom - Jun 11, 2006 2:29 pm (#2437 of 2969)
So wynnleaf, are you speculating that, in this scenario, Snape offered the UV but Lily refused? That could work.
Catherine - Jun 11, 2006 3:31 pm (#2438 of 2969)
So wynnleaf, are you speculating that, in this scenario, Snape offered the UV but Lily refused? That could work.
Possibly.
Perhaps I am a traditional Witch, but I worry about taking Unbreakable Vows with someone whom you are NOT married or otherwise obligated to. Arthur's uncharasteristic fury speaks volumes...
I feel like we don't know enough about Unbreakable Vows to understand the obligation, and or the connections....
Solitaire - Jun 11, 2006 4:24 pm (#2439 of 2969)
Edited Jun 11, 2006 5:25 pm
I still feel pretty much as Catherine does, Wynnleaf. Lily was married to James. Putting myself in James's place ... if my spouse secretly performed something as binding and obligating as an unbreakable vow with someone I truly hated, I would consider it a betrayal of gargantuan proportions. It would be tantamount to agreeing with this enemy about my shortcomings and admitting I was ineffective and arrogant--something that is incredibly disloyal. I just cannot see Lily doing something this hurtful.
Solitaire
Ann - Jun 11, 2006 6:56 pm (#2440 of 2969)
Edited Jun 11, 2006 7:57 pm
Solitaire, I don't think it would be a betrayal if Snape was doing the Vowing--if Lily made a Vow without James' knowledge, that would be another (and far more shameful) thing altogether. After all, in such a case, she'd be risking her own life. But Snape is (as far as we know) unattached, so he wouldn't have been betraying anyone.
And he certainly doesn't see the Vow he does make as a betrayal of Lucius. (And if there were any social tendency to see things that way, surely he would have grabbed at it. And Narcissa clearly doesn't feel it is any betrayal of her own marriage to ask the vow of Snape, nor is Bella at all shocked.
That said, I don't think the Vow with Lily happened. I don't think she'd ask it. She might have asked him to promise--I think a man like Snape would find such a promise even more compelling. But, simply because it relied on his honor rather than his fear of death, such a request would be more personal, and perhaps something she wouldn't want to do without James' knowledge.
wynnleaf - Jun 11, 2006 7:26 pm (#2441 of 2969)
Solitaire,
I tend to agree with you, but Ann also had a good point with the vow Snape made for Narcissa. I think Narcissa seems pretty committed to Lucius (hard to imagine, but here you are). Yet she doesn't seem to see anything untoward with Snape making this vow to her. Of course, Lucius was in Azkaban, so perhaps that's a difference.
Rea - Jun 12, 2006 9:35 am (#2442 of 2969)
Maybe I'm wrong, but you need a third party if you want to do an UV... So we should have a third party also in Lily/Snape vow, and I can't find anyone.
SilverMoonLady - Jun 12, 2006 9:47 am (#2443 of 2969)
Assuming that the Snape-loved-Lily theory pans out, I can well imagine how seeing her eyes gazing out from Harry's face (so like James, by all the evidence) must have stirred some pretty deep and conflicting emotions in him; one might even extrapolate a world of guilt, blame and anger surging up, making his initial and continuing reaction to Harry so strong - here is the walking reminder not only of school-days torment, but of a love lost by his own actions.
Hmmm, a most angst-ridden possibility. We shall have to see if Book 7 bears any of our speculations out! Oooh, the vicarious thrill of literature!
Sil
Solitaire - Jun 12, 2006 11:14 am (#2444 of 2969)
Wynnleaf, the situations of Narcissa and Lily are completely different. Lucius and Snape are friends; James and Snape were enemies. I can't even begin to compare them.
Ann, the very nature of this kind of vow still makes me consider it a terrible betrayal. It would really diminish my opinion of Lily and her love for James. I hope it didn't happen.
Solitaire
wynnleaf - Jun 12, 2006 11:32 am (#2445 of 2969)
Edited Jun 12, 2006 12:36 pm
Wynnleaf, the situations of Narcissa and Lily are completely different. Lucius and Snape are friends; James and Snape were enemies. I can't even begin to compare them.
Ann, the very nature of this kind of vow still makes me consider it a terrible betrayal. It would really diminish my opinion of Lily and her love for James. I hope it didn't happen.
Well, I'm sorry I so misunderstood you. I thought you meant that "the very nature of this kind of vow" was what was such a betrayal -- for any married person to commit to with another person without the knowledge of their spouse. So basically, what you're saying is that it's not the nature of the vow itself that's the problem (since it's okay for Narcissa to make one, regardless of being married to Lucius), but the fact that James and Snape were enemies, which would make Lily's going into such a vow a betrayal. Actually, since it doesn't commit her to a single thing, I'm not so certain it's a betrayal, but that's certainly debatable.
I think the spousal betrayal idea is a concern regardless of whether we're talking about a vow or any other kind of relationship. If Lily and Severus were friends, would she have continued that friendship after marrying someone who was at such enmity with her husband? It's hard to say.
One thing we don't know, and may never find out, is the degree to which the hate between James and Severus continued between the time Snape left Hogwarts and James' death. Did it continue unabated? Or did they act somewhat more mature about it for awhile, but Severus' hate rekindled when James refused to take the warning about a spy among his friends and he and Lily died as a result? We really don't know. For instance, it's possible that James and Lily, as part of the Order, knew that Snape was a spy for Dumbledore (the current Order in Harry's time knows, after all). It could be that there had been a lessening of open discord for a year or so, making it possible for Lily and Snape to have a friendship. It is also possible that James would not want to break up a friendship of his wife's over a school time grudge.
The thing is, we know that James and Severus carried on their grudge after school. We don't the degree to which they continued to be enemies until James' death.
If it turns out that there was some sort of strong caring feeling that Snape had toward Lily, it makes a great deal of sense that his hatred of James would have greatly intensified after James disregarded the warning and he and Lily were both killed. This could make it appear, at this point, that his hatred/grudge had remained exactly the same since school days, but it's possible that there was a brief year or so when they were both in the Order before the Potter's deaths when it was at least in part set aside.
I'm not saying this is my theory. I'm just saying we don't know and it's a possibility.
Solitaire - Jun 12, 2006 11:58 am (#2446 of 2969)
Wynnleaf, it is the nature of the vow that would (for me only, I see) make it such a betrayal in Lily's case, because of the hatred between James and Snape. Since Lucius and Snape are friends, I think the case is different. I almost think Lucius might expect Snape to help out Narcissa, given their friendship.
Since the whole issue of a Lily-Snape Vow is pure speculation anyway, I am not going to belabor my feelings any further. I was simply explaining in what light I would consider my spouse's actions had he taken such a step with an enemy of mine. You obviously do not share my sensibilities on this issue, and that's okay. If there were never any disagreement on anything, the forum wouldn't last too long, would it?
Solitaire
Magic Words - Jun 12, 2006 12:32 pm (#2447 of 2969)
I'll say right off that I don't think a Lily-Snape Vow is very likely, although I guess it's not impossible. My take on their relationship was that it essentially ended after Snape called her a Mudblood. Even if it didn't end abruptly at that point, they would have drifted apart anyway as he pursued Dark Arts and she took up with James. By the time Snape goes to Dumbledore after the prophecy, Lily is pretty firmly on James's side. It would be Snape who remembered (and still regretted losing) her friendship.
wynnleaf - Jun 12, 2006 1:29 pm (#2448 of 2969)
Edited Jun 12, 2006 2:33 pm
The biggest reason I don't think an Unbreakable Vow was involved was that, to me, an Unbreakable Vow has nothing to do with trust. Narcissa and Bella wanted to force Snape's hand; that's why they asked for the vow. If Lily had ever asked Snape to gaurd Harry in the event of she and James' death, it would presumably be because she trusted him, in which case she wouldn't need a Vow. If he offered the Vow, the offer alone shows the commitment, and once again, if she didn't trust him in the first place, she wouldn't want him protecting her son. And if she did, there's no need for a Vow.
This is the same point I've made with the idea of Snape making a Vow to DD. DD "trusts" Snape. Snape is therefore not coerced by a Vow to serve with the Order or for DD.
I was simply explaining in what light I would consider my spouse's actions had he taken such a step with an enemy of mine. You obviously do not share my sensibilities on this issue, and that's okay.
Solitaire, I'd like to drop this issue of the Vow, but must clarify one thing. I certainly do not think that it is okay for a committed spouse to make a secret agreement with her spouses' enemy!
TomProffitt - Jun 12, 2006 2:18 pm (#2449 of 2969)
Edited Jun 12, 2006 3:20 pm
I personally believe that the evidence of A Snape-Lily relationship is very thin. How often are the two mentioned together in the same conversation? How often have we seem them together?
We really only have two examples of their relationship together. First we know that Severus hated her husband and felt he owed him a life debt. And second we witnessed her interaction in Severus's memory.
While the possibility of them having a relationship is open to possibility there is only circumstantial evidence which can easily be interpreted in another manner. What evidence do we have that they even knew each others' names? We don't know for certain that they were in the same year (maybe we do, I'm not sure) or that they had any classes together. Edit: Yes, we do know they were in the same year, so they would have know each from NEWT Potions at least.
Edit again: I guess what I'm asking is what non-circumstantial evidence do we have for a relationship of any sort (other than classmates) do we have?
SilverMoonLady - Jun 12, 2006 2:28 pm (#2450 of 2969)
I don't think we'll find text evidence of a *relationship* - but the possibility of Snape having feelings for Lily (probably unrequited) beyond that of a classmate... well, I'm on the fence. In terms of plotting and character development, it is a valid path to take; there are some small clues which can be interpreted that way (as discussed above by many).
But no, nothing written in stone yet exists.
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TomProffitt - Jun 12, 2006 2:40 pm (#2451 of 2969)
I guess part of my confusion comes from the two ways that Severus can be interpreted. Either the dark, brooding, misunderstood good guy or the angry, hateful, selfish guy working who's willing to work for the good guys (and of course the evil git who murdered DD for Tom Riddle). I would hazard a guess that none of the people in favor of the Lily-Severus relationship theory are in the "Angry, hateful guy working for DD" category, which is my interpretation. Should the other interpretation be more accurate the Severus-Lily relationship becomes much more probable.
SilverMoonLady - Jun 12, 2006 2:45 pm (#2452 of 2969)
Ah... Well, I think that even if he is an "Angry, hateful guy working for DD", it's conceivable he might, when younger, have harbored feelings for a very kind and pretty woman; rejection could make one 'angry' and 'hateful', no? But it's all speculation until Book 7, right?
Magic Words - Jun 12, 2006 2:53 pm (#2453 of 2969)
Is there no room for an angry, hateful, selfish good guy? As in, I suppose, someone who hates Voldemort more than he hates anyone in the Order? I do think he must have changed from his school days, and probably for the worse.
Hollywand - Jun 12, 2006 3:36 pm (#2454 of 2969)
I'm not sure why Lily would need to have Severus assist her in protecting Harry; James seems a more powerful wizard than Severus in sheer skill, and James and Lily defy Voldemort themselves without the help of Severus Snape.
Catherine - Jun 12, 2006 3:46 pm (#2455 of 2969)
If it turns out that there was some sort of strong caring feeling that Snape had toward Lily, it makes a great deal of sense that his hatred of James would have greatly intensified after James disregarded the warning and he and Lily were both killed.
I could agree with this, if I thought that Snape was capable of loving someone in an unselfish way. ::Gina, sweeting, of course I'm not talking about YOU. ::
I say this because I do wonder if Snape cares about Narcissa Malfoy--we see a more sympathetic and "nicer" side of Snape in that scene.
Before OoP, I did wonder if Snape had an itch for Lily. The "Mudblood" scene extinguished that for me, and left me so cold that I really do not wish to contemplate his feelings about Lily further.
Narcissa, though...blonde...pureblood...good-looking...I could see Severus appreciating what he perceives to be "the best" from a wizarding "stock" point of view, especially if Narcissa "looks up to him" and thinks he's powerful and in the know. I always wonder if the "obsessive love" Slughorn refers to could be about Snape and Narcissa.
....probably fruitless, I know.....
TomProffitt - Jun 12, 2006 4:13 pm (#2456 of 2969)
Is there no room for an angry, hateful, selfish good guy? --- Magic Words
Semantics I think, on that one. It depends on what "selfish" and "good" mean to you. By my definitions of the terms it's just not possible to pack them all into the same reasonably sane person. Obviously Lily likes the "bad boy" type or she wouldn't have been with James, but Severus by this definition was never the "bad boy" type, he would have been "slimy evil." He's not Han Solo or Indiana Jones, not even Anakin Skywalker, he's more Jaba the Hutt (I'm struggling to find the right bad guy here, Alan Rickman is a much more appealing person than how I perceive Severus).
I say this because I do wonder if Snape cares about Narcissa Malfoy --- Catherine
As I read that scene I saw Severus as perceiving the sisters as weak and cowardly. They were an obstacle in his path. I thought him contemptuous of them, which may be how he was suckered into an Unbreakable Vow he did not want.
Magic Words - Jun 12, 2006 6:38 pm (#2457 of 2969)
Oh, when I say Snape is "good" I never mean he's the kind of person you'd like to be around or even that he embodies the qualities Dumbledore would hope for in his allies, just that he's fighting with the "good guys" as opposed to the evil bad guys. And I mean he's fighting for reasons that are idealogical in some way, shape, or form, not 100% selfish - that is, he wouldn't change sides in the blink of an eye if he realized he was losing. There's no reason someone like that can't be angry - Harry's angry in OotP, but luckily it's just a stage. Hateful is harder... but as I said, maybe he just hates Voldemort the most. Or maybe his hatred doesn't preclude compassion as entirely as it seems to do whenever Harry is around. Selfish... similar argument. I think what I'm getting at is that Snape can be all those things but not be completely lacking in nobler qualities, and while we've certainly seen how he conducts himself on a personal level, that doesn't mean he lets the same motives guide (i.e. get in the way of) his role in the war. Remember Mundungus Fletcher. Well, admittedly, he did let his personal affairs affect the war effort (leaving Harry unguarded at Privet Drive) but the Order as a whole accepts his contribution in spite of the other things he does.
And I all but forgot we were tying this to the chances of Snape feeling something for Lily. I've mentioned above how he could be hateful etc. but not to the exclusion of all else, and that's really the crux of my argument. He could hate James and still admire/like/love Lily.
journeymom - Jun 12, 2006 10:15 pm (#2458 of 2969)
"I say this because I do wonder if Snape cares about Narcissa Malfoy--we see a more sympathetic and "nicer" side of Snape in that scene."
I loved that whole chapter just because we got to see/hear so much more of Snape than we ever have before. We've never heard him speak so positively before, have we?
And didn't he come across as slippery-charming? I'm sorry, I can't think of the right word now. Charming, but in a repellant way.
Ann - Jun 13, 2006 1:10 am (#2459 of 2969)
Edited Jun 13, 2006 2:16 am
Catherine said "Before OoP, I did wonder if Snape had an itch for Lily. The "Mudblood" scene extinguished that for me, and left me so cold that I really do not wish to contemplate his feelings about Lily further."
I think that's exactly what JKR wants us to think--and she also wants us to think it's Snape's worst memory because James exposed his underwear. But when you think about it, that's fairly thin, compared to what his other memories must be; and I think it's quite likely that being goaded into making the Mudblood comment is what's so terrible about it. He ruined whatever friendship he had with her, and it started him on the path to Voldemort.
There are lots of circumstantial clues that support a relationship of some kind between Snape and Lily. Most importantly, there's Dumbledore's statement about Snape's remorse for being (remotely) the cause of the Potters' death--and since we know he loathed/loathes James (with good reason), that's probably mostly Lily. Dumbledore clearly considers telling Harry more there; if the reason for his trust is something like an Unbreakable Vow, or simply that Dumbledore knows him and trusts him, there would be no reason he shouldn't tell Harry. But if it's about Lily, his decision is understandable. Harry's in a right state already, and that would send him around the bend. What else would Dumbledore have hesitated to mention at that point? He wants Harry to trust Snape as he does, so why not tell him why? The only reason would be that the circumstance would probably make Harry even angrier.
Then there's the Potions connection (both Snape and Lily were clearly good at it), the fact that Slughorn mentions her every time he praises Harry's skill in Potions except in Snape's presence, and the fact that JKR keeps Slughorn out of the room when Harry repeats the Mudblood comment (he would have reacted, I think). And there's Petunia's reference to "that awful boy" telling Lily about the Dementors at Azkaban. Harry thinks she's talking about James, and so did we; but someone asked JKR to confirm that and she wouldn't. She's also said that Lily was a "very popular girl." And a more subtle clue, I think, is the difficulty Snape had teaching Harry Occlumency, where eye contact (with Lily's eyes) is so essential. I will be very surprised if it doesn't turn out to be the case that there was a friendship or even more, at least on Snape's side.
Saracene - Jun 13, 2006 1:33 am (#2460 of 2969)
The main reason I believe in Snape/Lily connection is Dumbledore's story about Snape's remorse over his role in the prophecy and what it meant for Harry's parents. For me it's a matter of simple elimination: I can't imagine Snape feeling life-changing remorse on James' behalf, so that leaves Lily.
And if this theory was true, and this connection is a twist meant for the last book, then clearly JKR would not give any direct evidence for it. Since then it wouldn't be a twist.
rambkowalczyk - Jun 13, 2006 3:17 am (#2461 of 2969)
Edited Jun 13, 2006 4:17 am
The strength of my argument referring to the idea of Snape making an unbreakable vow to Lily comes in literary symmetry. In "Spinner's End" we're introduced to the concept of the UV and we see a desperate Narcissa beg Snape to protect Draco from LV. Draco's and Harry's lives have contrasted through out the stories. It's not too much of a stretch to think that we're supposed to see that what happened between Narcissa and Snape happened 17 or so years prior between Lily and Snape. Journeymom
How's this for literary symmetry. James only saves Severus life because if he didn't he would have been in serious trouble. Also James was indirectly involved in putting Severus' life in danger in the first place. Severus vows to do anything he can to keep Harry alive since he was responsible for putting it at risk in the first place. And assuming that Snape values Dumbledore's opinion he would have to save Harry in order to maintain it.
I heard many good arguments as to why Lily or Dumbledore wouldn't require an Unbreakable Vow from Severus. But two things are missing: Severus and James. If one can accept that Severus wants to do good, he probably feels his life isn't worth living if Harry dies as a result of his action, therefore to him an Unbreakable Vow isn't much of an extra commitment.
Also my gut feelings is that James would not have a problem with Severus making an Unbreakable Vow because I think that if anything were to happen to Harry, James would kill Severus in revenge.
wynnleaf - Jun 13, 2006 4:11 am (#2462 of 2969)
Edited Jun 13, 2006 5:11 am
rambkowalczyk,
You seem to be assuming that James knew that Snape is the one that gave the prophecy to LV. That may be true. But if DD wouldn't tell Harry that Snape was the one, is it any more likely he'd have told James -- for the very reasons you gave? James would be so angry at Snape that he'd try to get revenge.
Dobby Socks - Jun 13, 2006 5:21 am (#2463 of 2969)
I’m hoping to get these responses posted this morning before they fall into my “100-odd Snape posts that fell by the wayside either because the thread was moving too fast or because there were more important things I had to do than finish the post” folder.
So, to try to cobble together my posts from yesterday (I’m holding Tom’s Han Solo vs. Jabba the Hut question until later since I won’t be able to answer it adequately this morning)…
1.) Tom, the reasons I find it likely that there was a relationship between Lily and Snape have already been well-stated in Ann’s post #2418 (June 10th) and wynnleaf’s post #2416 (also June 10th). As for hard evidence, there isn’t any, and there shouldn’t be any yet since the question of why Dumbledore trusted Snape is still open and awaiting an answer in Book 7. The reason it won’t be answered until the final book is because it’s enormously important to the series, one part of JKR’s big finale. ….Saracene stated this point above in a more succinct manner than I have, and I agree with her 100%.
I reluctantly came to the Lily/Snape conclusion because it fits best with what DD has already told Harry. DD obviously decided to withhold part of the information from Harry in HBP before they left for the cave. But if we believe what he did tell him was true (and I do), then some form of a Lily/Snape relationship is what fits best logically as the whole reason that DD trusted Snape.
2.) Speculation about a Lily/Snape UV:
The most important reaction I had to this debate follows (although there is certainly more to say).
In this hypothetical Lily/Snape UV scenario, I can imagine that James would have been far happier to have been consulted about it if possible, but I highly doubt he would put bruised pride above the life of his child. I do agree with Catherine that we may not understand the social implications of such a vow. But, taking into account only what we know, I don’t see James considering this to be disloyal on Lily’s part. If you and your wife were at risk of dying and there was a chance your child would survive but be in danger, I can’t understand for a moment why you wouldn’t want as many people as possible looking out for your child’s welfare, no matter who those people might be. And, as I understand the UV, it wouldn’t matter if the parties involved considered the vow taker trustworthy, a good person, etc. Snape would be absolutely bound to protect Harry’s life. The fact that Snape has a DE history would put him in an even better position to protect Harry if he were obligated by an UV to do so. I think it would be a smart decision to make.
Solitare said that from James’ perspective It would be tantamount to agreeing with this enemy about my shortcomings and admitting I was ineffective and arrogant--something that is incredibly disloyal. I can understand where you are coming from with this point, and I can certainly see Snape using it as a statement about James’ “arrogance” regarding the Secret Keeper issue (and in general). But I think the practical aspect of the vow would supercede such juvenile concerns in the minds of both Lily and James. The bottom line is that their child would be safer. I can’t imagine any parent who is concerned about their child’s life raising a valid objection to this.
3.) Ann, I also believe that the Mudblood comment is what defines the pensieve memory as Snape’s worst. But with all the hints dropped about their connection in 6th year potions, I have to wonder did their friendship survive this slur (at least through the following year). Or was Slughorn careful about not commenting on Lily around Snape based on what he knew from earlier years? This always strikes me as an odd discrepancy and I’m trying to wrap my brain around it. Maybe Lily understood the reasons behind Snape’s outburst and forgave it, but by 6th year Snape had started his descent into future DE-hood, which by the end of 6th year reached the point where she could no longer abide it. I know Snape’s Worst Memory has been discussed a lot. Let me know if this question has already been resolved and I’ll search for it.
TomProffitt - Jun 13, 2006 10:14 am (#2464 of 2969)
And didn't he come across as slippery-charming? I'm sorry, I can't think of the right word now. Charming, but in a repellant way. --- journeymom
Is this where that wonderful British word "smarmy" is used? I don't think Americans have anything close that isn't profanity.
Ann, wynnleaf, Dobby Socks, and others who are proponents of a Lily/Snape relationship (my apologies for including someone who shouldn't be) I believe I see where we part ways. The final conclusion is one in a series of conclusions, each building on the other. I don't share your certainty on the foundations, so at each progressive level it becomes harder for it all to stand together.
Many bad things happened to Severus in his worst memory, it could be worst because of the combination of things rather than a single instance. Severus could be remorseful because it was his first contribution to a murder. Soldiers have crisis of conscience over the death of complete and total strangers. The slaying of an enemy can cause remorse and often does. I don't believe it fair to discount remorse over James because he was hated. We also have to consider whether or not the remorse was genuine or deeply felt.
Failure of Slughorn to mention Lily in Severus's presence could be coincidence, an indication of Severus's jealousy over someone reputedly better at potions than himself, or anger at Lily for her choosing James & not Severus.
There are many possibilities that fit the evidence we have. I desire more information before I'm willing to commit to this kind of theory. I probably won't be saying "Ah hah!" until I'm well into book 7.
haymoni - Jun 13, 2006 10:29 am (#2465 of 2969)
Edited Jun 13, 2006 11:33 am
The "awful boy" comment made me think that there was more to Snape & Lily.
When I first read that, I thought Pet was referring to James, but someone on this Forum led me to believe that it could have been Snape.
Why would he be at their home?
wynnleaf - Jun 13, 2006 10:30 am (#2466 of 2969)
Edited Jun 13, 2006 11:36 am
Tom said: Severus could be remorseful because it was his first contribution to a murder. Soldiers have crisis of conscience over the death of complete and total strangers. The slaying of an enemy can cause remorse and often does. I don't believe it fair to discount remorse over James because he was hated.
While this theory doesn't necessarily fall upon it, it should be noted that Severus did not become remorseful after the deaths of the Potters. His remorse was prior to their deaths. If you recall, he turned from LV and became a spy for the Order for some time before LV's fall. It sounds, from DD comments, that it was LV targeting the Potters that provoked the remorse that Severus felt.
haymoni,
The "awful boy" comment from Petunia seems to be made with the idea that someone in her listening audience (Vernon??) knew who she meant. It's sort of implied in the sentence that a listener understands that she's referring to a particular person. Still, even if Vernon didn't know who she was talking about, it does sound as though this was a boy -- not a man -- that she was somewhat familiar with and disliked.
JKR's unwillingness to say that it was James is quite interesting. And why have Petunia say "awful boy" at all, rather than "your drunk of a father," or whatever, unless is wasn't James?
The use of "boy" instead of "man" implies that this was someone talking with Lily outside of Hogwarts, but while she was still in school -- so that would mean it would likely be during the summer at some point. It doesn't necessarily mean it was at their home. I suppose it's possible that Petunia could have gone with Lily and their parents to Diagon Alley at some point.
journeymom - Jun 13, 2006 10:58 am (#2467 of 2969)
Edited Jun 13, 2006 11:59 am
"JKR's unwillingness to say that it was James is quite interesting. And why have Petunia say "awful boy" at all, rather than "your drunk of a father," or whatever, unless is wasn't James?
The use of "boy" instead of "man" implies that this was someone talking with Lily outside of Hogwarts, but while she was still in school -- so that would mean it would likely be during the summer at some point. It doesn't necessarily mean it was at their home. I suppose it's possible that Petunia could have gone with Lily and their parents to Diagon Alley at some point."
I've never been a proponent of the Severus-as-'that awful boy' idea. It makes much more sense that it's James. When would Petunia ever meet Snape? But you all make great points. Depending on the scenario (did Pet happen to be at the Potter's house when Snape came to call?) it would make sense that she'd be there when Snape explains about dementors and Azkaban. Though it does beg the question, why would either Snape or James have anything particular to say about dementors or Azkaban that Petunia would overhear?
Magic Words - Jun 13, 2006 11:27 am (#2468 of 2969)
I have heard that Snape could be the "awful boy," but I never understood why James wouldn't have been more likely? When did JKR refuse to say it was James?
haymoni - Jun 13, 2006 11:32 am (#2469 of 2969)
Are you kidding????
Pet is the nosiest busy-body in the world!
A boy from that strange school comes to their home - if you think Pet wasn't trying to eavesdrop on that conversation, I think you need to re-read the books!
As much as she may hate magic or think that Lily is a freak, it would KILL her to not know what was going on.
I think she would have said "your father" instead of "that awful boy" if it were James. I also think this visit came early - possibly in Year 2 or Year 3.
If Lily is younger than Pet, I suppose even a 16-year-old would be a "boy" to Pet, but I'm still thinking it was early on.
wynnleaf - Jun 13, 2006 11:43 am (#2470 of 2969)
Edited Jun 13, 2006 12:53 pm
Madam Scoop's list of themed JKR quotes said this:
Petunia knows about dementors because she "overheard a conversation" between Lily and someone else. But there is more to it than that; we will earn more in Book 7.
It had a link to the 2005 ITV interview, but I couldn't get the link to work. The assumption is that the overheard conversation is what Petunia heard "that awful boy" say. But JKR could have said simply, "Petunia overheard James mention it," rather than "overheard a conversation." That leads one to believe that the conversation was not a simple chat between Lily and James. And why would a conversation between Lily and James, in which he mentioned dementors, have any impact on Book 7?
Edit after Tom's post below (saving on posts):
If it was one of the Marauders I don't see either why JKR wouldn't have said so as she was answering the question -- she "overheard a conversation between Lily and Remus" for instance. And I don't see how that would impact Book 7. We already assume that Lily got along with the other Marauders. It would be no surprise at all. So the fact that JKR didn't say who Petunia heard it from, and the fact that it impacts Book 7, points more toward a surprising character as that "awful boy," rather than an expected character.
TomProffitt - Jun 13, 2006 11:48 am (#2471 of 2969)
Petunia would have called any of the Marauders "that awful boy." It could as easily have been Peter, Sirius, or Remus as Severus. It could have been a character we've never met.
haymoni - Jun 13, 2006 11:54 am (#2472 of 2969)
That is completely possible, Tom.
Although, I'm guessing Sirius would not have been too awful!!
TomProffitt - Jun 13, 2006 11:58 am (#2473 of 2969)
Although, I'm guessing Sirius would not have been too awful!! --- haymoni
He's a wizard, that would be enough for Petunia.
Ann - Jun 13, 2006 12:31 pm (#2474 of 2969)
Edited Jun 13, 2006 1:37 pm
From the Edinburgh "cub reporter" press conference, ITV, 16 July 2005
David Moulds for the News of the World - How does Aunt Petunia know about dementors and all the other magical facts she knows?
JK Rowling: Another very good question. She overheard a conversation, that is all I am going to say. She overheard conversation. The answer is in the beginning of Phoenix, she said she overheard Lily being told about them basically.
[Moulds] Is that true?
JK Rowling: Yes. The reason I am hesitant is because there is more to it than that. As I think you suspect. Correctly, but I don't want to say what else there is because it relates to book 7.
Ann: It could hardly be James, which is what Harry guessed, or she wouldn't be making such a big deal out of it. Lily was not really friends with the Marauders until the end of 6th year--and there was a war going on. Surely she would have learned about Dementors and Azkaban before that. I rest my case.
Catherine - Jun 13, 2006 12:45 pm (#2475 of 2969)
Edited Jun 13, 2006 1:47 pm
Lily was not really friends with the Marauders until the end of 6th year--
Is that explicitly stated and I missed it?
Just because Lily was not dating James does not mean that she was not friendly with Lupin or (ick) Pettigrew. I'm excluding Sirius from this because he and James were so close.
journeymom - Jun 13, 2006 2:06 pm (#2476 of 2969)
Edited Jun 13, 2006 3:13 pm
Snape just doesn't seem to fit in the muggle world at all, so I have a difficult time picturing a scenario where Petunia would see that awful boy talking with Lily.
And conversely, I can't see Petunia at Diagon Alley. Of course as a girl still living with her parents she may not have had a choice. Or maybe she was curious and wasn't hateful of the magical world yet.
And Snape is a half blood. His father is a muggle, so Snape would be somewhat familiar with the muggle world.
But I'm giving the wrong impression. I think it's quite possible that Snape is that boy.
Catherine - Jun 13, 2006 3:19 pm (#2477 of 2969)
Edited Jun 13, 2006 4:20 pm
But I'm giving the wrong impression. I think it's quite possible that Snape is that boy.
By that reasoning, Lupin could fit, as a half-blood.
I could see Petunia thinking that a sickly, scarred boy as Lupin may have been would be "awful."
No arguments, though, that Petunia would have probably classified the teenaged Snape as "awful."
Solitaire - Jun 13, 2006 4:10 pm (#2478 of 2969)
Edited Jun 13, 2006 5:15 pm
Lily was not really friends with the Marauders until the end of 6th year
Even though he was not Head Boy, Remus was a Prefect. If Lily was also a Prefect, then I think it is quite likely that she might have been good friends with Remus even before she and James got together. While I will admit I think Snape is awful, I think any boy from Hogwarts could have been that awful boy by Petunia's standards. JM2K ...
Solitaire
Dobby Socks - Jun 13, 2006 4:57 pm (#2479 of 2969)
"While I will admit I think Snape is awful, I think any boy from Hogwarts could have been that awful boy by Petunia's standards.”---
Lol, Solitare. Too true. Snape, though, would be the antithesis of Pet. She’d be wiping every surface with Lysol for days.
Choices - Jun 13, 2006 5:03 pm (#2480 of 2969)
We do know from canon that James was never a prefect, but we sure don't know that Lily wasn't one. I do believe though, that if she had been it would have been mentioned or at least hinted at.
Solitaire - Jun 13, 2006 5:17 pm (#2481 of 2969)
Hm ... Snape's greasy hair and yellow teeth make me wonder ... if he did visit their home, could he have been responsible for triggering Pet's cleaning fetish?
Solitaire
Hollywand - Jun 13, 2006 5:48 pm (#2482 of 2969)
I could easily see Petunia describing James as "awful" out of jealousy. She's certainly jealous of Lily's magical abilities. Who would you rather marry? James or Vernon? Why, Snape begins to look like a very decent alternative to Vernon any day of the week..... ;-)
Solitaire - Jun 13, 2006 5:55 pm (#2483 of 2969)
Just wash his hair and give him a lifetime supply of Crest Whitestrips ...
The Artful Dodger - Jun 14, 2006 1:02 am (#2484 of 2969)
Should it turn out in book 7 that Snape really had a friendship with Lily, or even loved her, then his hatred towards Harry becomes even less acceptable.
Ann - Jun 14, 2006 2:05 am (#2485 of 2969)
Should it turn out in book 7 that Snape really had a friendship with Lily, or even loved her, then his hatred towards Harry becomes even less acceptable.
Actually, it makes his annoyance with Harry more understandable. Even Remus Lupin got angry with him for sneaking off to Hogsmeade, ignoring the restrictions that had been put in place for his own safety, and, as Lupin pointed out, risking the gift that his mother had given him. Snape has seen a lot more of Harry's reckless behavior, and if he loved Lily, his resentment of some of Harry's stupider moves would be proportionately greater.
That's not to justify hatred (if he really hates Harry, which I'm not altogether sure of), but it explains some of his nasty comments.
wynnleaf - Jun 14, 2006 5:12 am (#2486 of 2969)
Edited Jun 14, 2006 6:14 am
A number of people were saying that many characters would have been considered an "awful boy" by Petunia. And that's certainly true.
But that's not the entire reason to suspect it's Snape. Here's the rest of JKR's quote again.
The reason I am hesitant is because there is more to it than that. As I think you suspect. Correctly, but I don't want to say what else there is because it relates to book 7.
If that "awful boy" were Remus or Sirius, it's hard to see why it would relate to some revelation in book 7. No reader would be surprised to learn that Petunia had at some point met Remus or Sirius, or even Peter, because as friends of James it would be nothing out of the ordinary for them to have hung around Lily some, especially in their last years at school. The idea that they might have come by her house in the summer would be no particular surprise either.
We already know that Petunia knows about dementors and that she overheard it from an acquaintance of Lily. That's no revelation for book 7. Any of the Marauders being one of the acquaintances is perfectly natural -- as is evidence by how quickly readers (see posts above) assume it could be one of them.
So why would JKR be "hesitant" to say more if it were that obvious? As she said, "there's more to it" and "as you suspect..." As the questioner suspects??? The questioner was perhaps asking a question based on fan speculation. I wonder what speculation JKR assumed the question was based on?
And the fact that JKR said it relates to book 7. Are we suspecting we'll learn something unusual about a Lily relationship with another Marauder? Some close early friendship that had to be kept under wraps until Book 7?
If you look at all of JKR's answer, it looks more like that "awful boy" is going to be a bit of a surprise to many and will affect some of the revelations of Book 7. In my opinion, Snape sounds like a lot more likely a candidate than Sirius, Remus, or even Peter.
haymoni - Jun 14, 2006 5:15 am (#2487 of 2969)
We know nothing of Lily & Pet's upbringing.
Pet's obsession with cleanliness, with showing off the new car, lavishing Dudley with gifts - she's a social-climber.
It makes me think that the Evans family could have been very middle-class or even lower-middle class.
Perhaps they grew up in an area similar to Spinners' End.
Snape could have been friends with Lily early on.
Just because nobody visits Harry doesn't mean other students don't visit one another over the holidays.
I just wonder when the dementors first started guarding Azkaban. Dumbledore says Fudge put them in charge, so the visit had to be while Fudge was Minister in order for Snape or whomever to mention that they guard Azkaban.
I think the "awful boy" was Snape, but I thought it was James until someone here on the Forum suggested otherwise.
Magic Words - Jun 14, 2006 5:47 am (#2488 of 2969)
Should it turn out in book 7 that Snape really had a friendship with Lily, or even loved her, then his hatred towards Harry becomes even less acceptable.
Ann makes a good point about Harry's recklessness, but I'd like to add that we know Snape associates Harry more with his father than his mother, and in this case Snape would have even more reasons to hate James than we've already seen--he married Lily, his arrogance got Lily killed, etc. Not to mention, Harry also contributed to Lily's death by being a target.
wynnleaf - Jun 14, 2006 6:06 am (#2489 of 2969)
Edited Jun 14, 2006 7:07 am
I agree with Magic Words. If it turns out that Snape cared a lot for Lily, I'd guess that makes him resent Harry even more. Not only does Harry look like a replica of that arrogant jerk who didn't take the proper precautions about protecting Lily (what Snape probably thinks), he's also a kid who takes her sacrifice for granted by taking unwarranted risks. Snape might have started off Harry's first year bitter that Lily had given up her life for a James clone -- and then proceeded to try to prove to himself that Harry was every bit as unworthy of Lily's sacrifice as he thought.
But bitterness toward the object of Lily's sacrifice might also explain why he'd be willing to protect Harry on occasion. He will value Lily's sacrifice, even if Harry (Snape feels) takes it for granted.
Just speculating, of course.
None of that excuses Severus in any way. If the feelings above are anything like what we'll discover in Book 7, then those feelings are rooted in bitterness and resentment. I don't think that makes Snape's behavior toward Harry either better or worse, it simply gives a partial explanation for it.
haymoni - Jun 14, 2006 7:16 am (#2490 of 2969)
Edited Jun 14, 2006 8:16 am
I think "the eyes" have it.
I could see some sort of tirade from Snape about how Harry looked like his father so it was easy to detest him, but when he had to look at Harry and see Lily's eyes staring back at him, it reminded him that he was the cause of her death - or something like that.
(I was going to say something sappier - like he was reminded of his one true love, but that just sounded gross.)
I guess part of my confusion comes from the two ways that Severus can be interpreted. Either the dark, brooding, misunderstood good guy or the angry, hateful, selfish guy working who's willing to work for the good guys (and of course the evil git who murdered DD for Tom Riddle). I would hazard a guess that none of the people in favor of the Lily-Severus relationship theory are in the "Angry, hateful guy working for DD" category, which is my interpretation. Should the other interpretation be more accurate the Severus-Lily relationship becomes much more probable.
SilverMoonLady - Jun 12, 2006 2:45 pm (#2452 of 2969)
Ah... Well, I think that even if he is an "Angry, hateful guy working for DD", it's conceivable he might, when younger, have harbored feelings for a very kind and pretty woman; rejection could make one 'angry' and 'hateful', no?
But it's all speculation until Book 7, right? Magic Words - Jun 12, 2006 2:53 pm (#2453 of 2969)
Is there no room for an angry, hateful, selfish good guy? As in, I suppose, someone who hates Voldemort more than he hates anyone in the Order? I do think he must have changed from his school days, and probably for the worse.
Hollywand - Jun 12, 2006 3:36 pm (#2454 of 2969)
I'm not sure why Lily would need to have Severus assist her in protecting Harry; James seems a more powerful wizard than Severus in sheer skill, and James and Lily defy Voldemort themselves without the help of Severus Snape.
Catherine - Jun 12, 2006 3:46 pm (#2455 of 2969)
If it turns out that there was some sort of strong caring feeling that Snape had toward Lily, it makes a great deal of sense that his hatred of James would have greatly intensified after James disregarded the warning and he and Lily were both killed.
I could agree with this, if I thought that Snape was capable of loving someone in an unselfish way. ::Gina, sweeting, of course I'm not talking about YOU. ::
I say this because I do wonder if Snape cares about Narcissa Malfoy--we see a more sympathetic and "nicer" side of Snape in that scene.
Before OoP, I did wonder if Snape had an itch for Lily. The "Mudblood" scene extinguished that for me, and left me so cold that I really do not wish to contemplate his feelings about Lily further.
Narcissa, though...blonde...pureblood...good-looking...I could see Severus appreciating what he perceives to be "the best" from a wizarding "stock" point of view, especially if Narcissa "looks up to him" and thinks he's powerful and in the know. I always wonder if the "obsessive love" Slughorn refers to could be about Snape and Narcissa.
....probably fruitless, I know.....
TomProffitt - Jun 12, 2006 4:13 pm (#2456 of 2969)
Is there no room for an angry, hateful, selfish good guy? --- Magic Words
Semantics I think, on that one. It depends on what "selfish" and "good" mean to you. By my definitions of the terms it's just not possible to pack them all into the same reasonably sane person. Obviously Lily likes the "bad boy" type or she wouldn't have been with James, but Severus by this definition was never the "bad boy" type, he would have been "slimy evil." He's not Han Solo or Indiana Jones, not even Anakin Skywalker, he's more Jaba the Hutt (I'm struggling to find the right bad guy here, Alan Rickman is a much more appealing person than how I perceive Severus).
I say this because I do wonder if Snape cares about Narcissa Malfoy --- Catherine
As I read that scene I saw Severus as perceiving the sisters as weak and cowardly. They were an obstacle in his path. I thought him contemptuous of them, which may be how he was suckered into an Unbreakable Vow he did not want.
Magic Words - Jun 12, 2006 6:38 pm (#2457 of 2969)
Oh, when I say Snape is "good" I never mean he's the kind of person you'd like to be around or even that he embodies the qualities Dumbledore would hope for in his allies, just that he's fighting with the "good guys" as opposed to the evil bad guys. And I mean he's fighting for reasons that are idealogical in some way, shape, or form, not 100% selfish - that is, he wouldn't change sides in the blink of an eye if he realized he was losing. There's no reason someone like that can't be angry - Harry's angry in OotP, but luckily it's just a stage. Hateful is harder... but as I said, maybe he just hates Voldemort the most. Or maybe his hatred doesn't preclude compassion as entirely as it seems to do whenever Harry is around. Selfish... similar argument. I think what I'm getting at is that Snape can be all those things but not be completely lacking in nobler qualities, and while we've certainly seen how he conducts himself on a personal level, that doesn't mean he lets the same motives guide (i.e. get in the way of) his role in the war. Remember Mundungus Fletcher. Well, admittedly, he did let his personal affairs affect the war effort (leaving Harry unguarded at Privet Drive) but the Order as a whole accepts his contribution in spite of the other things he does.
And I all but forgot we were tying this to the chances of Snape feeling something for Lily. I've mentioned above how he could be hateful etc. but not to the exclusion of all else, and that's really the crux of my argument. He could hate James and still admire/like/love Lily.
journeymom - Jun 12, 2006 10:15 pm (#2458 of 2969)
"I say this because I do wonder if Snape cares about Narcissa Malfoy--we see a more sympathetic and "nicer" side of Snape in that scene."
I loved that whole chapter just because we got to see/hear so much more of Snape than we ever have before. We've never heard him speak so positively before, have we?
And didn't he come across as slippery-charming? I'm sorry, I can't think of the right word now. Charming, but in a repellant way.
Ann - Jun 13, 2006 1:10 am (#2459 of 2969)
Edited Jun 13, 2006 2:16 am
Catherine said "Before OoP, I did wonder if Snape had an itch for Lily. The "Mudblood" scene extinguished that for me, and left me so cold that I really do not wish to contemplate his feelings about Lily further."
I think that's exactly what JKR wants us to think--and she also wants us to think it's Snape's worst memory because James exposed his underwear. But when you think about it, that's fairly thin, compared to what his other memories must be; and I think it's quite likely that being goaded into making the Mudblood comment is what's so terrible about it. He ruined whatever friendship he had with her, and it started him on the path to Voldemort.
There are lots of circumstantial clues that support a relationship of some kind between Snape and Lily. Most importantly, there's Dumbledore's statement about Snape's remorse for being (remotely) the cause of the Potters' death--and since we know he loathed/loathes James (with good reason), that's probably mostly Lily. Dumbledore clearly considers telling Harry more there; if the reason for his trust is something like an Unbreakable Vow, or simply that Dumbledore knows him and trusts him, there would be no reason he shouldn't tell Harry. But if it's about Lily, his decision is understandable. Harry's in a right state already, and that would send him around the bend. What else would Dumbledore have hesitated to mention at that point? He wants Harry to trust Snape as he does, so why not tell him why? The only reason would be that the circumstance would probably make Harry even angrier.
Then there's the Potions connection (both Snape and Lily were clearly good at it), the fact that Slughorn mentions her every time he praises Harry's skill in Potions except in Snape's presence, and the fact that JKR keeps Slughorn out of the room when Harry repeats the Mudblood comment (he would have reacted, I think). And there's Petunia's reference to "that awful boy" telling Lily about the Dementors at Azkaban. Harry thinks she's talking about James, and so did we; but someone asked JKR to confirm that and she wouldn't. She's also said that Lily was a "very popular girl." And a more subtle clue, I think, is the difficulty Snape had teaching Harry Occlumency, where eye contact (with Lily's eyes) is so essential. I will be very surprised if it doesn't turn out to be the case that there was a friendship or even more, at least on Snape's side.
Saracene - Jun 13, 2006 1:33 am (#2460 of 2969)
The main reason I believe in Snape/Lily connection is Dumbledore's story about Snape's remorse over his role in the prophecy and what it meant for Harry's parents. For me it's a matter of simple elimination: I can't imagine Snape feeling life-changing remorse on James' behalf, so that leaves Lily.
And if this theory was true, and this connection is a twist meant for the last book, then clearly JKR would not give any direct evidence for it. Since then it wouldn't be a twist.
rambkowalczyk - Jun 13, 2006 3:17 am (#2461 of 2969)
Edited Jun 13, 2006 4:17 am
The strength of my argument referring to the idea of Snape making an unbreakable vow to Lily comes in literary symmetry. In "Spinner's End" we're introduced to the concept of the UV and we see a desperate Narcissa beg Snape to protect Draco from LV. Draco's and Harry's lives have contrasted through out the stories. It's not too much of a stretch to think that we're supposed to see that what happened between Narcissa and Snape happened 17 or so years prior between Lily and Snape. Journeymom
How's this for literary symmetry. James only saves Severus life because if he didn't he would have been in serious trouble. Also James was indirectly involved in putting Severus' life in danger in the first place. Severus vows to do anything he can to keep Harry alive since he was responsible for putting it at risk in the first place. And assuming that Snape values Dumbledore's opinion he would have to save Harry in order to maintain it.
I heard many good arguments as to why Lily or Dumbledore wouldn't require an Unbreakable Vow from Severus. But two things are missing: Severus and James. If one can accept that Severus wants to do good, he probably feels his life isn't worth living if Harry dies as a result of his action, therefore to him an Unbreakable Vow isn't much of an extra commitment.
Also my gut feelings is that James would not have a problem with Severus making an Unbreakable Vow because I think that if anything were to happen to Harry, James would kill Severus in revenge.
wynnleaf - Jun 13, 2006 4:11 am (#2462 of 2969)
Edited Jun 13, 2006 5:11 am
rambkowalczyk,
You seem to be assuming that James knew that Snape is the one that gave the prophecy to LV. That may be true. But if DD wouldn't tell Harry that Snape was the one, is it any more likely he'd have told James -- for the very reasons you gave? James would be so angry at Snape that he'd try to get revenge.
Dobby Socks - Jun 13, 2006 5:21 am (#2463 of 2969)
I’m hoping to get these responses posted this morning before they fall into my “100-odd Snape posts that fell by the wayside either because the thread was moving too fast or because there were more important things I had to do than finish the post” folder.
So, to try to cobble together my posts from yesterday (I’m holding Tom’s Han Solo vs. Jabba the Hut question until later since I won’t be able to answer it adequately this morning)…
1.) Tom, the reasons I find it likely that there was a relationship between Lily and Snape have already been well-stated in Ann’s post #2418 (June 10th) and wynnleaf’s post #2416 (also June 10th). As for hard evidence, there isn’t any, and there shouldn’t be any yet since the question of why Dumbledore trusted Snape is still open and awaiting an answer in Book 7. The reason it won’t be answered until the final book is because it’s enormously important to the series, one part of JKR’s big finale. ….Saracene stated this point above in a more succinct manner than I have, and I agree with her 100%.
I reluctantly came to the Lily/Snape conclusion because it fits best with what DD has already told Harry. DD obviously decided to withhold part of the information from Harry in HBP before they left for the cave. But if we believe what he did tell him was true (and I do), then some form of a Lily/Snape relationship is what fits best logically as the whole reason that DD trusted Snape.
2.) Speculation about a Lily/Snape UV:
The most important reaction I had to this debate follows (although there is certainly more to say).
In this hypothetical Lily/Snape UV scenario, I can imagine that James would have been far happier to have been consulted about it if possible, but I highly doubt he would put bruised pride above the life of his child. I do agree with Catherine that we may not understand the social implications of such a vow. But, taking into account only what we know, I don’t see James considering this to be disloyal on Lily’s part. If you and your wife were at risk of dying and there was a chance your child would survive but be in danger, I can’t understand for a moment why you wouldn’t want as many people as possible looking out for your child’s welfare, no matter who those people might be. And, as I understand the UV, it wouldn’t matter if the parties involved considered the vow taker trustworthy, a good person, etc. Snape would be absolutely bound to protect Harry’s life. The fact that Snape has a DE history would put him in an even better position to protect Harry if he were obligated by an UV to do so. I think it would be a smart decision to make.
Solitare said that from James’ perspective It would be tantamount to agreeing with this enemy about my shortcomings and admitting I was ineffective and arrogant--something that is incredibly disloyal. I can understand where you are coming from with this point, and I can certainly see Snape using it as a statement about James’ “arrogance” regarding the Secret Keeper issue (and in general). But I think the practical aspect of the vow would supercede such juvenile concerns in the minds of both Lily and James. The bottom line is that their child would be safer. I can’t imagine any parent who is concerned about their child’s life raising a valid objection to this.
3.) Ann, I also believe that the Mudblood comment is what defines the pensieve memory as Snape’s worst. But with all the hints dropped about their connection in 6th year potions, I have to wonder did their friendship survive this slur (at least through the following year). Or was Slughorn careful about not commenting on Lily around Snape based on what he knew from earlier years? This always strikes me as an odd discrepancy and I’m trying to wrap my brain around it. Maybe Lily understood the reasons behind Snape’s outburst and forgave it, but by 6th year Snape had started his descent into future DE-hood, which by the end of 6th year reached the point where she could no longer abide it. I know Snape’s Worst Memory has been discussed a lot. Let me know if this question has already been resolved and I’ll search for it.
TomProffitt - Jun 13, 2006 10:14 am (#2464 of 2969)
And didn't he come across as slippery-charming? I'm sorry, I can't think of the right word now. Charming, but in a repellant way. --- journeymom
Is this where that wonderful British word "smarmy" is used? I don't think Americans have anything close that isn't profanity.
Ann, wynnleaf, Dobby Socks, and others who are proponents of a Lily/Snape relationship (my apologies for including someone who shouldn't be) I believe I see where we part ways. The final conclusion is one in a series of conclusions, each building on the other. I don't share your certainty on the foundations, so at each progressive level it becomes harder for it all to stand together.
Many bad things happened to Severus in his worst memory, it could be worst because of the combination of things rather than a single instance. Severus could be remorseful because it was his first contribution to a murder. Soldiers have crisis of conscience over the death of complete and total strangers. The slaying of an enemy can cause remorse and often does. I don't believe it fair to discount remorse over James because he was hated. We also have to consider whether or not the remorse was genuine or deeply felt.
Failure of Slughorn to mention Lily in Severus's presence could be coincidence, an indication of Severus's jealousy over someone reputedly better at potions than himself, or anger at Lily for her choosing James & not Severus.
There are many possibilities that fit the evidence we have. I desire more information before I'm willing to commit to this kind of theory. I probably won't be saying "Ah hah!" until I'm well into book 7.
haymoni - Jun 13, 2006 10:29 am (#2465 of 2969)
Edited Jun 13, 2006 11:33 am
The "awful boy" comment made me think that there was more to Snape & Lily.
When I first read that, I thought Pet was referring to James, but someone on this Forum led me to believe that it could have been Snape.
Why would he be at their home?
wynnleaf - Jun 13, 2006 10:30 am (#2466 of 2969)
Edited Jun 13, 2006 11:36 am
Tom said: Severus could be remorseful because it was his first contribution to a murder. Soldiers have crisis of conscience over the death of complete and total strangers. The slaying of an enemy can cause remorse and often does. I don't believe it fair to discount remorse over James because he was hated.
While this theory doesn't necessarily fall upon it, it should be noted that Severus did not become remorseful after the deaths of the Potters. His remorse was prior to their deaths. If you recall, he turned from LV and became a spy for the Order for some time before LV's fall. It sounds, from DD comments, that it was LV targeting the Potters that provoked the remorse that Severus felt.
haymoni,
The "awful boy" comment from Petunia seems to be made with the idea that someone in her listening audience (Vernon??) knew who she meant. It's sort of implied in the sentence that a listener understands that she's referring to a particular person. Still, even if Vernon didn't know who she was talking about, it does sound as though this was a boy -- not a man -- that she was somewhat familiar with and disliked.
JKR's unwillingness to say that it was James is quite interesting. And why have Petunia say "awful boy" at all, rather than "your drunk of a father," or whatever, unless is wasn't James?
The use of "boy" instead of "man" implies that this was someone talking with Lily outside of Hogwarts, but while she was still in school -- so that would mean it would likely be during the summer at some point. It doesn't necessarily mean it was at their home. I suppose it's possible that Petunia could have gone with Lily and their parents to Diagon Alley at some point.
journeymom - Jun 13, 2006 10:58 am (#2467 of 2969)
Edited Jun 13, 2006 11:59 am
"JKR's unwillingness to say that it was James is quite interesting. And why have Petunia say "awful boy" at all, rather than "your drunk of a father," or whatever, unless is wasn't James?
The use of "boy" instead of "man" implies that this was someone talking with Lily outside of Hogwarts, but while she was still in school -- so that would mean it would likely be during the summer at some point. It doesn't necessarily mean it was at their home. I suppose it's possible that Petunia could have gone with Lily and their parents to Diagon Alley at some point."
I've never been a proponent of the Severus-as-'that awful boy' idea. It makes much more sense that it's James. When would Petunia ever meet Snape? But you all make great points. Depending on the scenario (did Pet happen to be at the Potter's house when Snape came to call?) it would make sense that she'd be there when Snape explains about dementors and Azkaban. Though it does beg the question, why would either Snape or James have anything particular to say about dementors or Azkaban that Petunia would overhear?
Magic Words - Jun 13, 2006 11:27 am (#2468 of 2969)
I have heard that Snape could be the "awful boy," but I never understood why James wouldn't have been more likely? When did JKR refuse to say it was James?
haymoni - Jun 13, 2006 11:32 am (#2469 of 2969)
Are you kidding????
Pet is the nosiest busy-body in the world!
A boy from that strange school comes to their home - if you think Pet wasn't trying to eavesdrop on that conversation, I think you need to re-read the books!
As much as she may hate magic or think that Lily is a freak, it would KILL her to not know what was going on.
I think she would have said "your father" instead of "that awful boy" if it were James. I also think this visit came early - possibly in Year 2 or Year 3.
If Lily is younger than Pet, I suppose even a 16-year-old would be a "boy" to Pet, but I'm still thinking it was early on.
wynnleaf - Jun 13, 2006 11:43 am (#2470 of 2969)
Edited Jun 13, 2006 12:53 pm
Madam Scoop's list of themed JKR quotes said this:
Petunia knows about dementors because she "overheard a conversation" between Lily and someone else. But there is more to it than that; we will earn more in Book 7.
It had a link to the 2005 ITV interview, but I couldn't get the link to work. The assumption is that the overheard conversation is what Petunia heard "that awful boy" say. But JKR could have said simply, "Petunia overheard James mention it," rather than "overheard a conversation." That leads one to believe that the conversation was not a simple chat between Lily and James. And why would a conversation between Lily and James, in which he mentioned dementors, have any impact on Book 7?
Edit after Tom's post below (saving on posts):
If it was one of the Marauders I don't see either why JKR wouldn't have said so as she was answering the question -- she "overheard a conversation between Lily and Remus" for instance. And I don't see how that would impact Book 7. We already assume that Lily got along with the other Marauders. It would be no surprise at all. So the fact that JKR didn't say who Petunia heard it from, and the fact that it impacts Book 7, points more toward a surprising character as that "awful boy," rather than an expected character.
TomProffitt - Jun 13, 2006 11:48 am (#2471 of 2969)
Petunia would have called any of the Marauders "that awful boy." It could as easily have been Peter, Sirius, or Remus as Severus. It could have been a character we've never met.
haymoni - Jun 13, 2006 11:54 am (#2472 of 2969)
That is completely possible, Tom.
Although, I'm guessing Sirius would not have been too awful!!
TomProffitt - Jun 13, 2006 11:58 am (#2473 of 2969)
Although, I'm guessing Sirius would not have been too awful!! --- haymoni
He's a wizard, that would be enough for Petunia.
Ann - Jun 13, 2006 12:31 pm (#2474 of 2969)
Edited Jun 13, 2006 1:37 pm
From the Edinburgh "cub reporter" press conference, ITV, 16 July 2005
David Moulds for the News of the World - How does Aunt Petunia know about dementors and all the other magical facts she knows?
JK Rowling: Another very good question. She overheard a conversation, that is all I am going to say. She overheard conversation. The answer is in the beginning of Phoenix, she said she overheard Lily being told about them basically.
[Moulds] Is that true?
JK Rowling: Yes. The reason I am hesitant is because there is more to it than that. As I think you suspect. Correctly, but I don't want to say what else there is because it relates to book 7.
Ann: It could hardly be James, which is what Harry guessed, or she wouldn't be making such a big deal out of it. Lily was not really friends with the Marauders until the end of 6th year--and there was a war going on. Surely she would have learned about Dementors and Azkaban before that. I rest my case.
Catherine - Jun 13, 2006 12:45 pm (#2475 of 2969)
Edited Jun 13, 2006 1:47 pm
Lily was not really friends with the Marauders until the end of 6th year--
Is that explicitly stated and I missed it?
Just because Lily was not dating James does not mean that she was not friendly with Lupin or (ick) Pettigrew. I'm excluding Sirius from this because he and James were so close.
journeymom - Jun 13, 2006 2:06 pm (#2476 of 2969)
Edited Jun 13, 2006 3:13 pm
Snape just doesn't seem to fit in the muggle world at all, so I have a difficult time picturing a scenario where Petunia would see that awful boy talking with Lily.
And conversely, I can't see Petunia at Diagon Alley. Of course as a girl still living with her parents she may not have had a choice. Or maybe she was curious and wasn't hateful of the magical world yet.
And Snape is a half blood. His father is a muggle, so Snape would be somewhat familiar with the muggle world.
But I'm giving the wrong impression. I think it's quite possible that Snape is that boy.
Catherine - Jun 13, 2006 3:19 pm (#2477 of 2969)
Edited Jun 13, 2006 4:20 pm
But I'm giving the wrong impression. I think it's quite possible that Snape is that boy.
By that reasoning, Lupin could fit, as a half-blood.
I could see Petunia thinking that a sickly, scarred boy as Lupin may have been would be "awful."
No arguments, though, that Petunia would have probably classified the teenaged Snape as "awful."
Solitaire - Jun 13, 2006 4:10 pm (#2478 of 2969)
Edited Jun 13, 2006 5:15 pm
Lily was not really friends with the Marauders until the end of 6th year
Even though he was not Head Boy, Remus was a Prefect. If Lily was also a Prefect, then I think it is quite likely that she might have been good friends with Remus even before she and James got together. While I will admit I think Snape is awful, I think any boy from Hogwarts could have been that awful boy by Petunia's standards. JM2K ...
Solitaire
Dobby Socks - Jun 13, 2006 4:57 pm (#2479 of 2969)
"While I will admit I think Snape is awful, I think any boy from Hogwarts could have been that awful boy by Petunia's standards.”---
Lol, Solitare. Too true. Snape, though, would be the antithesis of Pet. She’d be wiping every surface with Lysol for days.
Choices - Jun 13, 2006 5:03 pm (#2480 of 2969)
We do know from canon that James was never a prefect, but we sure don't know that Lily wasn't one. I do believe though, that if she had been it would have been mentioned or at least hinted at.
Solitaire - Jun 13, 2006 5:17 pm (#2481 of 2969)
Hm ... Snape's greasy hair and yellow teeth make me wonder ... if he did visit their home, could he have been responsible for triggering Pet's cleaning fetish?
Solitaire
Hollywand - Jun 13, 2006 5:48 pm (#2482 of 2969)
I could easily see Petunia describing James as "awful" out of jealousy. She's certainly jealous of Lily's magical abilities. Who would you rather marry? James or Vernon? Why, Snape begins to look like a very decent alternative to Vernon any day of the week..... ;-)
Solitaire - Jun 13, 2006 5:55 pm (#2483 of 2969)
Just wash his hair and give him a lifetime supply of Crest Whitestrips ...
The Artful Dodger - Jun 14, 2006 1:02 am (#2484 of 2969)
Should it turn out in book 7 that Snape really had a friendship with Lily, or even loved her, then his hatred towards Harry becomes even less acceptable.
Ann - Jun 14, 2006 2:05 am (#2485 of 2969)
Should it turn out in book 7 that Snape really had a friendship with Lily, or even loved her, then his hatred towards Harry becomes even less acceptable.
Actually, it makes his annoyance with Harry more understandable. Even Remus Lupin got angry with him for sneaking off to Hogsmeade, ignoring the restrictions that had been put in place for his own safety, and, as Lupin pointed out, risking the gift that his mother had given him. Snape has seen a lot more of Harry's reckless behavior, and if he loved Lily, his resentment of some of Harry's stupider moves would be proportionately greater.
That's not to justify hatred (if he really hates Harry, which I'm not altogether sure of), but it explains some of his nasty comments.
wynnleaf - Jun 14, 2006 5:12 am (#2486 of 2969)
Edited Jun 14, 2006 6:14 am
A number of people were saying that many characters would have been considered an "awful boy" by Petunia. And that's certainly true.
But that's not the entire reason to suspect it's Snape. Here's the rest of JKR's quote again.
The reason I am hesitant is because there is more to it than that. As I think you suspect. Correctly, but I don't want to say what else there is because it relates to book 7.
If that "awful boy" were Remus or Sirius, it's hard to see why it would relate to some revelation in book 7. No reader would be surprised to learn that Petunia had at some point met Remus or Sirius, or even Peter, because as friends of James it would be nothing out of the ordinary for them to have hung around Lily some, especially in their last years at school. The idea that they might have come by her house in the summer would be no particular surprise either.
We already know that Petunia knows about dementors and that she overheard it from an acquaintance of Lily. That's no revelation for book 7. Any of the Marauders being one of the acquaintances is perfectly natural -- as is evidence by how quickly readers (see posts above) assume it could be one of them.
So why would JKR be "hesitant" to say more if it were that obvious? As she said, "there's more to it" and "as you suspect..." As the questioner suspects??? The questioner was perhaps asking a question based on fan speculation. I wonder what speculation JKR assumed the question was based on?
And the fact that JKR said it relates to book 7. Are we suspecting we'll learn something unusual about a Lily relationship with another Marauder? Some close early friendship that had to be kept under wraps until Book 7?
If you look at all of JKR's answer, it looks more like that "awful boy" is going to be a bit of a surprise to many and will affect some of the revelations of Book 7. In my opinion, Snape sounds like a lot more likely a candidate than Sirius, Remus, or even Peter.
haymoni - Jun 14, 2006 5:15 am (#2487 of 2969)
We know nothing of Lily & Pet's upbringing.
Pet's obsession with cleanliness, with showing off the new car, lavishing Dudley with gifts - she's a social-climber.
It makes me think that the Evans family could have been very middle-class or even lower-middle class.
Perhaps they grew up in an area similar to Spinners' End.
Snape could have been friends with Lily early on.
Just because nobody visits Harry doesn't mean other students don't visit one another over the holidays.
I just wonder when the dementors first started guarding Azkaban. Dumbledore says Fudge put them in charge, so the visit had to be while Fudge was Minister in order for Snape or whomever to mention that they guard Azkaban.
I think the "awful boy" was Snape, but I thought it was James until someone here on the Forum suggested otherwise.
Magic Words - Jun 14, 2006 5:47 am (#2488 of 2969)
Should it turn out in book 7 that Snape really had a friendship with Lily, or even loved her, then his hatred towards Harry becomes even less acceptable.
Ann makes a good point about Harry's recklessness, but I'd like to add that we know Snape associates Harry more with his father than his mother, and in this case Snape would have even more reasons to hate James than we've already seen--he married Lily, his arrogance got Lily killed, etc. Not to mention, Harry also contributed to Lily's death by being a target.
wynnleaf - Jun 14, 2006 6:06 am (#2489 of 2969)
Edited Jun 14, 2006 7:07 am
I agree with Magic Words. If it turns out that Snape cared a lot for Lily, I'd guess that makes him resent Harry even more. Not only does Harry look like a replica of that arrogant jerk who didn't take the proper precautions about protecting Lily (what Snape probably thinks), he's also a kid who takes her sacrifice for granted by taking unwarranted risks. Snape might have started off Harry's first year bitter that Lily had given up her life for a James clone -- and then proceeded to try to prove to himself that Harry was every bit as unworthy of Lily's sacrifice as he thought.
But bitterness toward the object of Lily's sacrifice might also explain why he'd be willing to protect Harry on occasion. He will value Lily's sacrifice, even if Harry (Snape feels) takes it for granted.
Just speculating, of course.
None of that excuses Severus in any way. If the feelings above are anything like what we'll discover in Book 7, then those feelings are rooted in bitterness and resentment. I don't think that makes Snape's behavior toward Harry either better or worse, it simply gives a partial explanation for it.
haymoni - Jun 14, 2006 7:16 am (#2490 of 2969)
Edited Jun 14, 2006 8:16 am
I think "the eyes" have it.
I could see some sort of tirade from Snape about how Harry looked like his father so it was easy to detest him, but when he had to look at Harry and see Lily's eyes staring back at him, it reminded him that he was the cause of her death - or something like that.
(I was going to say something sappier - like he was reminded of his one true love, but that just sounded gross.)
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The Artful Dodger - Jun 14, 2006 8:09 am (#2491 of 2969)
Edited Jun 14, 2006 9:11 am
First, you can't compare Lupin and Snape when Harry's reckleness is concerned. While Lupin explains to Harry that he must not risk his life after Lily sacrificed hers for him, Snape doesn't. Second, Harry did not contribute to Lily's death, unless you consider being born as a contribution. Third, given what JKR has written and said about love so far, loving Lily should have a positive effect on how Snape views Harry, not a negative one.
haymoni - Jun 14, 2006 8:21 am (#2492 of 2969)
I think it does have a positive effect.
He can't bring himself to totally hate the Son of James because of Lily.
Ann - Jun 14, 2006 9:00 am (#2493 of 2969)
I'm not saying that what Snape says and does as a result of Harry's recklessness is comparable to what Lupin says and does. I'm saying that Lupin expresses feelings that Snape may feel. The difference in their responses to these feelings is caused by the fact that Lupin looks at Harry and sees his old friend James and Snape looks at him and sees someone who hexed him "just for the fun of it" and "because he exists." Lupin yells at him and explains why. Snape just yells at him.
The Artful Dodger - Jun 14, 2006 9:02 am (#2494 of 2969)
Edited Jun 14, 2006 10:03 am
You can see it that way, haymoni, but you could also wonder why Snape is not able to overcome his hatred towards James and love the Son of Lily.
I'd expect the effect to be a lot stronger, but that certainly is a question of personal taste, so there's no need to discuss that point any further.
Magic Words - Jun 14, 2006 9:16 am (#2495 of 2969)
Second, Harry did not contribute to Lily's death, unless you consider being born as a contribution. Third, given what JKR has written and said about love so far, loving Lily should have a positive effect on how Snape views Harry, not a negative one. -The Artful Dodger
I think Snape is very likely to consider being born a contribution. We've already seen him blame Harry for things Harry had no control over, i.e. looking like James.
Oh, and I think it will have a positive effect, in book 7, once Harry manages to convince Snape that he isn't, as Wynnleaf put it, a James clone.
wynnleaf - Jun 14, 2006 9:21 am (#2496 of 2969)
you could also wonder why Snape is not able to overcome his hatred towards James and love the Son of Lily.
Oh, I imagine Snape probably could overcome it -- if he had any desire to, which he likely doesn't.
haymoni - Jun 14, 2006 9:25 am (#2497 of 2969)
People say that Harry looks just like James - except for the eyes.
I'm guessing if you saw Harry from far away, you would think he was James, but only someone who knew Lily would know that his eyes were hers when you were up close.
I guess what I am saying is there is more of James in Harry than there is Lily.
Now if Harry looked like Lily and had James's eyes, then I think Snape could get over it.
journeymom - Jun 14, 2006 10:27 am (#2498 of 2969)
"I guess what I am saying is there is more of James in Harry than there is Lily. " heymoni
Could we take the physical comparison one step further and extrapolate that Harry -is- more like James than Lily?
Harry has his dad's quidditch talents. He is not, however, innately talented in potions, as apparently Lily was. Was Lily more compassionate than James? The scene in the pensieve would seem to indicate that.
Harry has never been as cruel to others as James was in his behavior with Snape. So I don't know. Snape has lots of explanations but no good excuses for treating Harry so poorly.
Choices - Jun 14, 2006 10:33 am (#2499 of 2969)
Edited Jun 14, 2006 11:34 am
I think Harry may look more like James, but his heart is more like Lily.....he is not arrogant or conceited or a bully - he is kinder and has a "saving people" thing, as did Lily. She saved Harry, and she tried to save Snape from James and Sirius.
wynnleaf - Jun 14, 2006 11:31 am (#2500 of 2969)
Edited Jun 14, 2006 12:34 pm
Other than the Quidditch skills and physical characteristics (and maybe the Quidditch is simply an extension of the physical similarities), I don't think of Harry as like anything we actually know about James.
Practically all that we've actually seen of James is the pensieve scene. Still... James was apparently really popular. Harry's not the highly gregarious type. He's got a few friends and his roommates. James seemed very self-confident. Harry's not. James came across like a bully -- in fact, I can't imagine anyone who was not basically a bully behaving in that way. When I first read that pensieve scene, the main thing I could think of was that Harry absolutely would never act like that. It was more like how Dudley would treat Harry.
If Harry got his heart from either of his parents, I'd expect he got it from Lily.
BUT, it's very clear that Snape sees Harry as a James clone. He interprets all of Harry's rule breaking as though it was a kid out for a lark, when for Harry he's usually doing something that rightly or wrongly he feels he has to do, and often to protect others or prevent some bad thing from happening. Snape seems to see Harry's "saving people thing" not as someone who truly feels he has to save someone else, but that Harry arrogantly thinks he's the most necessary person to solve a particular situation.
It's interesting that one of the biggest problems for Harry is assuming that no adult will help him with a problem (and sometimes he's right). So he's often taking things into his own hands. For instance, at the start of COS, anyone thinking clearly would remember that Arthur would be coming very soon to get the flying car, but Harry and Ron assume no one will be there to help out, so they fly to Hogwarts. But Snape always sees this sort of behavior as arrogant. In that case, Ron has really no excuse. But Harry's life has been such that the adults "in charge" generally could not be trusted to help out. So one can understand where he's coming from.
Snape always sees that behavior as arrogant. When he sees Harry only trusting himself to take care of something, he sees James' arrogance and hates him for it.
And the arrogance issue is very big with Snape -- which makes a great deal of sense if he cared for Lily. He'd see James' refusal to heed the warnings about betrayal among his friends as exceedingly arrogant and leading to Lily's death. When he sees what he thinks is the same arrogance in Harry -- who Lily died to save -- it would infuriate him.
Anyway, that's my theory.
Die Zimtzicke - Jun 14, 2006 11:38 am (#2501 of 2969)
Edited Jun 14, 2006 12:39 pm
Back to an earlier point- I see no similarities between Narcissa making a vow with Snape and Lily possibly having made one behind James' back with Snape.
Lucius is in prison and while he's keeping himself safe to maybe come back to her some day, I doubt if he's much help to Narcissa. Snape can be a help to Narcissa, because she wants him to keep an eye on Draco who is living in the house Snape oversees.
Lily making a vow with Snape has none of these elements. James was presumably there during the time period we're talking about, and Lily and James had Harry with them.
wynnleaf - Jun 14, 2006 11:51 am (#2502 of 2969)
Die Zimtzicke,
I'm not sure that anyone actually saw the two Vows (one only a possibility), as similar. The confusion was over exactly what was meant when someone commented on the wrong aspects of a spouse making such a vow with another person, unbeknownst to their spouse. Apparently, the biggest concern wasn't a married person accepting such a vow without their spouse's knowledge, but accepting such a vow from their spouse's enemy. Narcissa was only brought up because she accepted a vow without her spouse's knowledge and it wasn't considered a problem by the characters at the time. That of course, was not the same as accepting such a vow from one's spouse's enemy.
I am only speaking of my understanding of the discussion.
TomProffitt - Jun 14, 2006 12:12 pm (#2503 of 2969)
Snape has lots of explanations but no good excuses for treating Harry so poorly. --- journeymom
I couldn't agree more. It disgusts me that a teacher would have less maturity than the student he torments. Severus does not strike me as someone who is willing to do the right thing if it is not absolutely necessary. Dumbledore may be correct in trusting that Severus has truly turned away from Tom Riddle, but I would not trust someone with so little self control with anything else.
rambkowalczyk - Jun 14, 2006 6:52 pm (#2504 of 2969)
I see no similarities between Narcissa making a vow with Snape and Lily possibly having made one behind James' back with Snape. Die Z
One similarity is that Snape did this to save the child. Draco's life was in danger because of what his father did (lose horcrux) or didn't do (not get prophecy). Harry's life was in danger because of what Snape did. But both were in danger from Voldemort. In both cases it was an attempt to do the right thing although I will admit in Harry's case it is also an attempt to atone for his previous actions.
As I mentioned before Snape trying to save the life of Harry after Voldemort chooses to kill him has a symmetry to James saving Snape's life when threatened by Lupin. In both instances each is saving the life of someone that they had previously put in danger.
Obviously at this point any vow Snape made to Lily is speculation. I don't necessarily think that Snape would have to do it behind James' back. It would be unusual for Snape to ask for forgiveness because he would rightly fear that it wouldn't be given. But if he truly regretted his actions as Dumbledore said he did, this might be the exception that proves the rule. Nothing James or Lily would do could make him feel worse. He would want to make the vow to show he meant what he said.
Solitaire - Jun 14, 2006 8:53 pm (#2505 of 2969)
Ramb, I don't really want to get back on this issue, but I was the one who said I couldn't see Lily going behind James's back to make such a vow with Snape. Since (I am assuming) Snape and James didn't have a relationship, it isn't the same thing (to me).
Solitaire
Saracene - Jun 15, 2006 2:01 am (#2506 of 2969)
Regarding Snape's attittude to Harry and how his feelings for Lily would fit into it, I think it entirely believable that he would treat Harry worse rather than better. As was remarked already, Harry is a split image of his father who Snape hates. And I think that if Snape cared for Lily and was partly responsible for her death, then IMO the primary emotions associated with her would be not some warm and fuzzy recollection of his school love, but a feeling of horrible guilt. Even decent, un-Snapelike people may often lash out against those who remind them of their guilt.
journeymom - Jun 15, 2006 8:41 am (#2507 of 2969)
Regarding whether or not James (and Lily) would forgive Snape for putting LV onto them, it's important to remember that Snape is not responsible for LV's actions. I would hope that the Potters would remember that regardless of what LV does with the information, Snape is not guilty of persecuting the Potters himself. He's guilty of taking the prophecy to a murderer. And the wizarding world and Jo's readers should remember that Snape did not kill the Potters. Even after Snape gave the prophecy to him, Lord Voldemort didn't have to kill the Potters. That action rests squarely on LV's shoulders.
Catherine - Jun 15, 2006 8:48 am (#2508 of 2969)
Journeymom,
Voldemort made the choice to hunt the Potters, but Snape gave him the ammunition to do it.
Snape had to have known that his information would be putting someone at risk.
Solitaire - Jun 15, 2006 9:13 am (#2509 of 2969)
Snape had to have known that his information would be putting someone at risk.
I think that is the bottom line, Catherine. Whether it was the Potters, the Longbottoms, or some unknown couple or family, Snape must have known--given Voldemort's desire for ultimate power--that he was delivering a death warrant for some unborn child. How unfortunate for Snape that Voldemort's target turned out to be none other than the man (and the son of the man) to whom Snape owed a life debt.
Solitaire
haymoni - Jun 15, 2006 10:03 am (#2510 of 2969)
Or...the target turned out to be the son of the woman that he loved.
TomProffitt - Jun 15, 2006 10:45 am (#2511 of 2969)
Or...the target turned out to be the son of the woman that he loved. Draco wasn't born in July.
haymoni - Jun 15, 2006 10:55 am (#2512 of 2969)
Ah...perhaps Snape is a man of many tastes - blondes, red heads...
wynnleaf - Jun 15, 2006 11:12 am (#2513 of 2969)
I know we've had this discussion before -- to what degree is Snape culpable for turning over the partial prophecy to LV?
I guess it all depends.... We don't know anything about why Snape joined LV in the first place, what communications were like between LV and the DE's, or even just how deadly LV was at that point. We don't know how publically his killings were until right around the time of the year before the Potter's deaths -- at which point if was obvious to anyone that LV killed people. But we don't know at what point his murders became public. He was committing murders even while at Hogwarts and even DD didn't know at the time.
So we don't know for certain that when Snape joined LV in his late teens, if a new recruit would know that LV was a murderer.
If Snape knew at the time that LV was a vicious murderer with absolutely no conscious who would definitely try to kill anyone, including a baby, just on the strength of a prophecy from an old fraud (usually) like Trelawney, then his taking that prophecy to LV was practically an accessory before the fact of murder.
BUT, if LV's murders were still secretive, then it's possible that a young, rather new DE could hear the partial prophecy and take it to LV not realizing that he was practically signing some unknown person's death warrent.
Personally, I think that Snape has truly turned from the evil side, but to what degree were the depths of his wrongdoings -- well, I don't think we know that for sure at this point.
TomProffitt - Jun 15, 2006 11:21 am (#2514 of 2969)
wynnleaf, from the descriptions we've received from other characters about those times (mostly from Hagrid & the elder Weasleys) we know that Riddle was openly bad. I believe from things we heard from Sirius we knew that things were bad while the Marauders were at school.
In this country(the US) accessories to murder before the fact are charged as if they committed the act themselves.
Severus may have been denying things to himself, but there can be little doubt (particularly when one considers the wording of the prophecy) that Riddle would have taken extreme measures. We can argue mitigating circumstances for Severus but we are denying things to ourselves if we accept exonerating arguments.
Catherine - Jun 15, 2006 11:31 am (#2515 of 2969)
Edited Jun 15, 2006 12:33 pm
Voldemort and his Death Eaters liked to publicize their kills by sending up the Dark Mark, the same mark that Death Eaters have branded on their skin by Voldemort. That's hardly secret.
I can't imagine that if , as it is said in HbP, Voldemort and his followers killed enough people to make an army of Inferi, that someone like Snape would not realize that Voldemort would use any means to achieve his ends.
Regulus Black, perhaps, did not realize at first what would be required of him when he joined the Death Eaters, but he realized it very soon and tried to back out. Snape would presumably have had ample time to recognize what the effect of sharing the prophecy with Voldemort might be.
haymoni - Jun 15, 2006 12:04 pm (#2516 of 2969)
How did Snape know to listen in on Trelawney?
wynnleaf - Jun 15, 2006 1:41 pm (#2517 of 2969)
Somehow or another, JKR decided to write Snape's actions as having been to some degree reviewed by the MOM and he was released. I assume that the Wizengamot and the MOM didn't know about Snape's part in taking the prophecy to LV.
However, everyone by the fall of LV knew that the DE's and LV were involved in widespread murder. And the MOM learned, perhaps from DD, certainly from other DE's, that Snape had indeed once been a DE.
There must have been some reason why they felt that he either did not need to be charged, or could be pardoned, or whatever, for his role as a DE. Personally, I'd consider any deatheater who helped LV in any way to be an accessory to murder, or even guilty of murder, because even if he didn't commit the acts himself, he helped in the overall actions.
Point being -- the MOM either didn't prosecute Snape, or pardoned him. You don't "make up" for murders by helping out with the war effort as a spy, regardless how risky it was. So they either had to decide he wasn't truly guilty of that, or for some reason there wasn't enough there to prosecute him -- or they pardoned him.
I was trying to come up with a reason for why that happened. Like I said, helping out as a DE in any way is basically being an accessory to many murders. But the MOM still let Snape go. He may have been in Azkaban very briefly, but he was clearly teaching at Hogwarts too long for any stay in Azkaban to be any more than nominal.
Of course, I don't think too much of the justice of the MOM. Still, they (or the Wizengamot) and DD did not seem to think it wrong for him to go free. And not only that, but to teach at Hogwarts -- which after all is also governed by the MOM.
This makes me think that JKR could probably, if pressed and she decided to answer, give some reason for why Snape was not actually guilty of murder. But of course, I could be wrong.
TomProffitt - Jun 15, 2006 3:10 pm (#2518 of 2969)
I think Severus got the "Spy's Pardon." He was put in the place of choosing either Azkaban for life or be a spy. Dumbledore vouched for his reliability as a spy and that was good enough for Barty Crouch. Karkarof was able to trade names for his freedom, but Severus's price was steeper because his guilt was steeper.
Catherine - Jun 15, 2006 3:33 pm (#2519 of 2969)
Point being -- the MOM either didn't prosecute Snape, or pardoned him. You don't "make up" for murders by helping out with the war effort as a spy, regardless how risky it was. So they either had to decide he wasn't truly guilty of that, or for some reason there wasn't enough there to prosecute him -- or they pardoned him.
Are we really trusting the MOM for whom they arrest and whom they don't? See Books 1-6 for details.
Snape's lack of prosecution doesn't attest to his innocence.
Die Zimtzicke - Jun 15, 2006 3:47 pm (#2520 of 2969)
No, Dumbledore attested to Snape's innnocence, and he must have had a reason. And I still say Harry's life was saved by Snape more than once. Better to be picked on and alive than treated well in class, and killed outside of class.
TomProffitt - Jun 15, 2006 4:28 pm (#2521 of 2969)
Edited Jun 15, 2006 5:29 pm
No, Dumbledore attested to Snape's innocence, and he must have had a reason. --- Die Zimtzicke
It was my impression that Dumbledore vouched for Snape's reliability and remorse. I don't think DD ever said "Snape is innocent" he said that Snape no longer served Riddle, that he had shown remorse, and that he was trusted. None of these things speak to innocence, they are more of a plea bargain.
Sun Tzu said in On War (written circa 300 BCE) that spies should be turned & not killed. When you catch a spy you make him work for you and not the other guy. This is what Crouch and Dumbledore did with Snape.
wynnleaf - Jun 15, 2006 6:29 pm (#2522 of 2969)
Edited Jun 15, 2006 7:30 pm
When you catch a spy you make him work for you and not the other guy. This is what Crouch and Dumbledore did with Snape.
And you have him join your teaching staff and teach the eleven year old kids for 16 years and say "I trust him" over and over and over, in spite of all sorts of temperamental behavior..... Personally, I think trust is something quite different from coercion. Would DD trust a murderer? Perhaps over many years and evidence of change, yes. Would he place a person guilty of murder in charge of his students with barely any passage of time? (remember that Snape was probably teaching several months before the Potter's deaths and only at most a year after turning from LV.)
I agree -- Snape is not "innocent." But there's a lot of room between "innocent" of any number of various offences and "guilty of murder." What I was addressing in my last post was the degree of Snape's culpability in murder -- not whether or not he was completely "innocent" or not.
Are we really trusting the MOM for whom they arrest and whom they don't?
Also, I did already state that the MOM's justice is not reliable.
Ann - Jun 15, 2006 6:59 pm (#2523 of 2969)
Just a remark on the question of whether Snape could have joined Voldemort without knowing what he was signing on to do. He cannot have done that. Dumbledore refers quite pointedly, in the first book, to the fact that the eleven years before Voldemort's disastrous (to him) attack on the Potters were a time of attacks and danger. That means that Voldemort came out of the closet (so to speak) in 1970, and didn't let up until 1981. Snape (and Wormtail--and for that matter the slightly younger Regulus Black) cannot have been ignorant of what they were signing on to.
TomProffitt - Jun 16, 2006 4:48 am (#2524 of 2969)
Snape (and Wormtail--and for that matter the slightly younger Regulus Black) cannot have been ignorant of what they were signing on to. --- Ann
Really what it is is self-delusion. Knowing and understanding are often quite different. I think Severus bought into the propaganda, "Wizards are better, muggles are sub-human." It didn't become real and personal for him until (effectively, not literally) he sent people he knew to gallows.
What I was addressing in my last post was the degree of Snape's culpability in murder -- not whether or not he was completely "innocent" or not. --- wynnleaf
To me Dumbledore is the kind of person that tries to see what is in someone's heart and not judge them by their actions. I think that for Albus the concern is not what someone has done in the past, but what someone will do in the future. I think that this is how he can bring Severus to his school despite his level of culpability in the death of Lily & James Potter. Essentially what I'm saying is that Dumbledore possesses a level of trust and forgiveness that I don't possess myself. Were I in DD's place I would never have trusted Snape, but I'm most certainly not Albus Dumbledore. From what we've seen on the printed page thus far I have no idea who's right and who's wrong.
wynnleaf - Jun 16, 2006 5:07 am (#2525 of 2969)
Edited Jun 16, 2006 6:09 am
Really what it is is self-delusion. Knowing and understanding are often quite different. I think Severus bought into the propaganda, "Wizards are better, muggles are sub-human." It didn't become real and personal for him until (effectively, not literally) he sent people he knew to gallows.
I agree with this, although I'm not sure whether what Snape was buying into was the parts about muggles being sub-human, or some other aspect of LV. We haven't been told yet.
We had a long discussion back in the Fall on this topic. LV was recruiting many of his DE's as teenagers. In real life, terrorist organizations often recruit among the young. Not meaning to disparage an entire age group by any means, but it seems many young people in terrorist groups are pretty deluded as to the realities of the organization until they've been in it a while. For many, they seem to get trapped and end up following orders to commit terrible acts often because they are threatened with harm to their families, or threatened with exposure if they try to leave -- their association with the organization having already made them, at least as far as they know, warrenting death if they are exposed and caught. Others continue to buy into whatever the propaganda of the group is in a wholehearted, very delusional sort of way. But it does seem much easier for these groups to target young people.
Notice also that terrorist groups not only recruit the young, but often young people who already feel resentful and targeted by what they grow to see as the "enemy."
TomProffitt - Jun 16, 2006 5:17 am (#2526 of 2969)
Exactly, wynnleaf, the human brain doesn't finish developing until (on average) age 20 or so. The ability to fully understand the consequences of your actions is tied to it. This how Malvo could be recruited into the DC Sniper shootings and why terrorists, fascists, etc. recruit the young. This is why teenagers can make those big stupid mistakes (like flying the car to school) and not really understand how they could have been that dumb.
But as my Dad put it to me (he was a Juvenile & Family Court probation officer in the 60s), "Okay, he's kid and didn't understand what he was doing, but he still participated in murder, what do you do with him?" He's been indoctrinated, is it safe to return someone like that to society?
haymoni - Jun 16, 2006 5:20 am (#2527 of 2969)
Edited Jun 16, 2006 6:21 am
I don't know about that, Ann. If you read Sirius's comments in OotP, he says loads of folks agreed with Voldy's pureblood beliefs, but then backed off when they saw what he really wanted to do.
I guessing it is one thing to only want purebloods in Hogwarts or in the Ministry, but to kill people off or use Unforgiveable Curses may have changed a few minds.
At least that's how I took Regulus's situation.
Snape may have been spouting the pureblood philosophy, but he may not have known how far Voldy wanted to take things.
And once you are in, it's not like you can just say, "I'm done playing. I want to go home."
Steve Newton - Jun 16, 2006 5:28 am (#2528 of 2969)
"the human brain doesn't finish developing until (on average) age 20 or so"
I guess thats it for me. Sigh. All down hill from here. My brain stopped developing decades ago.
Hollywand - Jun 16, 2006 6:36 am (#2529 of 2969)
Edited Jun 16, 2006 7:37 am
Steve, you can console yourself by thinking of Harry: eleven years under the stairs, seven years being chased by an evil wizard, only two years of bliss, then it's downhill.... ;-)
Ann - Jun 16, 2006 8:08 am (#2530 of 2969)
Edited Jun 16, 2006 9:10 am
haymoni said "I don't know about that, Ann. If you read Sirius's comments in OotP, he says loads of folks agreed with Voldy's pureblood beliefs, but then backed off when they saw what he really wanted to do."
But the problem is, we don't know what period he was talking about. Dumbledore said (twice) in PS/SS that the first war lasted eleven years. That's an odd number, really, and it suggests a definite moment of its beginning. (Coincidentally, that moment is at exactly the same time that many timelines mark as the Marauders' first year at Hogwarts, 1970.) I always assumed that the period Sirius was talking about was before the war, when Voldemort was arguing his pureblood beliefs but had not yet begun to attack those who disagreed. I'd have put this period between the time of his visit to Dumbledore (newly made headmaster of Hogwarts in winter 1956, when McGonagall began teaching Transfiguration) and 1970, when war broke out.
But unless Regulus became a DE before the age of 9, Voldemort was already at war with the British wizarding world when he joined. So I think Tom must have been right about Regulus deluding himself, if he was shocked by Voldemort's tactics as Sirius says. Snape, however, I would see as being a bit more aware of what sort of thing he was getting into, but being was angry enough not to care. I think he had dehumanized the victims in his head--until one of the victims was someone he knew and liked. I think this was Lily, rather than Lily and James. James was one of the people he was (is) angry at.
Potter Ace - Jun 16, 2006 8:34 am (#2531 of 2969)
Solitaire - #2407 So you do not believe Snape is the DE whom Voldemort believes "has left me forever" and will be killed? Just wondering ...
I thought that this was Head of Durmstag (sorry can't recall the name) whom ended up dead at the beginning of OotP? I recall that there 3 or 4 references to DE's that did not return when called, have they all been pointed out somewhere?
Magic Words - Jun 16, 2006 10:24 am (#2532 of 2969)
He gave some names, mentioned the "faithful servant at Hogwarts" (Crouch), one "too cowardly to return" (I assumed that was Karkaroff, since we know he fled in fear), and one "that has left me forever." Process of elimination leaves Snape; it could have been someone we don't suspect, but that would raise the question of why Voldemort didn't mention Snape at all.
haymoni - Jun 16, 2006 10:30 am (#2533 of 2969)
I always took that passage the same way you did, Magic Words.
Did we have a recent JKR quote to back that up? Something in the Emerson/Melissa interview perhaps??
Solitaire - Jun 16, 2006 12:14 pm (#2534 of 2969)
that would raise the question of why Voldemort didn't mention Snape at all
Snape had not yet returned, remember ... he came two hours later. At the time Voldemort made the statement, maybe he thought Snape had left him forever.
Solitaire
Magic Words - Jun 16, 2006 12:16 pm (#2535 of 2969)
That's what I meant, Solitaire. It wouldn't make sense for the one who left forever to be anyone other than Snape, because Voldemort mentioned everyone who wasn't there, so he must have mentioned him.
wynnleaf - Jun 16, 2006 1:17 pm (#2536 of 2969)
After finishing GOF, I assumed the "too cowardly" person was Karkarov, and that LV knew about the cowardliness through Crouch, Jr. As Magic Words said, that just leaves Snape for the one gone forever. Since Snape himself says in Spinners End that LV mostly identified him that way, it seems to indicate that it was indeed Snape that LV meant in the graveyard.
Choices - Jun 16, 2006 5:44 pm (#2537 of 2969)
Snape himself tells us which one he was...."Yes, the Dark Lord thought that I had left him forever, but he was wrong." Ch. Spinner's End - p. 29 (top of page) Scholastic Hardcover edition
haymoni - Jun 17, 2006 5:37 pm (#2538 of 2969)
I knew it was somewhere! Thanks, Choices!
Choices - Jun 17, 2006 5:39 pm (#2539 of 2969)
You're very welcome! :-)
rambkowalczyk - Jun 18, 2006 4:33 am (#2540 of 2969)
Regarding Voldemorts statement at the graveyard 1 a traitor, one who has left me forever--he will be killed 2 a coward--he will be punished 3 my most faithfull servent--he will be rewarded.
Everyone assumes that Barty Crouch jr is #3. with Karkaroff and Snape vying for positions one and two.
After reading book 4, it was easier to conclude that Snape was the traitor and Karkaroff was the coward.
Except in book 5 Snape isn't dead and in book 6 Karkaroff is killed. One could then argue that Karkaroff was the traitor because he gave up names--Rookwood. That leaves Snape being the coward which in Voldemort's eyes makes the most sense since Snape did return two hours later. Plus Snape gets very defensive when he is called a coward.
The ironic thing is that Snape could easily be any of those three positions.
Edited Jun 14, 2006 9:11 am
First, you can't compare Lupin and Snape when Harry's reckleness is concerned. While Lupin explains to Harry that he must not risk his life after Lily sacrificed hers for him, Snape doesn't. Second, Harry did not contribute to Lily's death, unless you consider being born as a contribution. Third, given what JKR has written and said about love so far, loving Lily should have a positive effect on how Snape views Harry, not a negative one.
haymoni - Jun 14, 2006 8:21 am (#2492 of 2969)
I think it does have a positive effect.
He can't bring himself to totally hate the Son of James because of Lily.
Ann - Jun 14, 2006 9:00 am (#2493 of 2969)
I'm not saying that what Snape says and does as a result of Harry's recklessness is comparable to what Lupin says and does. I'm saying that Lupin expresses feelings that Snape may feel. The difference in their responses to these feelings is caused by the fact that Lupin looks at Harry and sees his old friend James and Snape looks at him and sees someone who hexed him "just for the fun of it" and "because he exists." Lupin yells at him and explains why. Snape just yells at him.
The Artful Dodger - Jun 14, 2006 9:02 am (#2494 of 2969)
Edited Jun 14, 2006 10:03 am
You can see it that way, haymoni, but you could also wonder why Snape is not able to overcome his hatred towards James and love the Son of Lily.
I'd expect the effect to be a lot stronger, but that certainly is a question of personal taste, so there's no need to discuss that point any further.
Magic Words - Jun 14, 2006 9:16 am (#2495 of 2969)
Second, Harry did not contribute to Lily's death, unless you consider being born as a contribution. Third, given what JKR has written and said about love so far, loving Lily should have a positive effect on how Snape views Harry, not a negative one. -The Artful Dodger
I think Snape is very likely to consider being born a contribution. We've already seen him blame Harry for things Harry had no control over, i.e. looking like James.
Oh, and I think it will have a positive effect, in book 7, once Harry manages to convince Snape that he isn't, as Wynnleaf put it, a James clone.
wynnleaf - Jun 14, 2006 9:21 am (#2496 of 2969)
you could also wonder why Snape is not able to overcome his hatred towards James and love the Son of Lily.
Oh, I imagine Snape probably could overcome it -- if he had any desire to, which he likely doesn't.
haymoni - Jun 14, 2006 9:25 am (#2497 of 2969)
People say that Harry looks just like James - except for the eyes.
I'm guessing if you saw Harry from far away, you would think he was James, but only someone who knew Lily would know that his eyes were hers when you were up close.
I guess what I am saying is there is more of James in Harry than there is Lily.
Now if Harry looked like Lily and had James's eyes, then I think Snape could get over it.
journeymom - Jun 14, 2006 10:27 am (#2498 of 2969)
"I guess what I am saying is there is more of James in Harry than there is Lily. " heymoni
Could we take the physical comparison one step further and extrapolate that Harry -is- more like James than Lily?
Harry has his dad's quidditch talents. He is not, however, innately talented in potions, as apparently Lily was. Was Lily more compassionate than James? The scene in the pensieve would seem to indicate that.
Harry has never been as cruel to others as James was in his behavior with Snape. So I don't know. Snape has lots of explanations but no good excuses for treating Harry so poorly.
Choices - Jun 14, 2006 10:33 am (#2499 of 2969)
Edited Jun 14, 2006 11:34 am
I think Harry may look more like James, but his heart is more like Lily.....he is not arrogant or conceited or a bully - he is kinder and has a "saving people" thing, as did Lily. She saved Harry, and she tried to save Snape from James and Sirius.
wynnleaf - Jun 14, 2006 11:31 am (#2500 of 2969)
Edited Jun 14, 2006 12:34 pm
Other than the Quidditch skills and physical characteristics (and maybe the Quidditch is simply an extension of the physical similarities), I don't think of Harry as like anything we actually know about James.
Practically all that we've actually seen of James is the pensieve scene. Still... James was apparently really popular. Harry's not the highly gregarious type. He's got a few friends and his roommates. James seemed very self-confident. Harry's not. James came across like a bully -- in fact, I can't imagine anyone who was not basically a bully behaving in that way. When I first read that pensieve scene, the main thing I could think of was that Harry absolutely would never act like that. It was more like how Dudley would treat Harry.
If Harry got his heart from either of his parents, I'd expect he got it from Lily.
BUT, it's very clear that Snape sees Harry as a James clone. He interprets all of Harry's rule breaking as though it was a kid out for a lark, when for Harry he's usually doing something that rightly or wrongly he feels he has to do, and often to protect others or prevent some bad thing from happening. Snape seems to see Harry's "saving people thing" not as someone who truly feels he has to save someone else, but that Harry arrogantly thinks he's the most necessary person to solve a particular situation.
It's interesting that one of the biggest problems for Harry is assuming that no adult will help him with a problem (and sometimes he's right). So he's often taking things into his own hands. For instance, at the start of COS, anyone thinking clearly would remember that Arthur would be coming very soon to get the flying car, but Harry and Ron assume no one will be there to help out, so they fly to Hogwarts. But Snape always sees this sort of behavior as arrogant. In that case, Ron has really no excuse. But Harry's life has been such that the adults "in charge" generally could not be trusted to help out. So one can understand where he's coming from.
Snape always sees that behavior as arrogant. When he sees Harry only trusting himself to take care of something, he sees James' arrogance and hates him for it.
And the arrogance issue is very big with Snape -- which makes a great deal of sense if he cared for Lily. He'd see James' refusal to heed the warnings about betrayal among his friends as exceedingly arrogant and leading to Lily's death. When he sees what he thinks is the same arrogance in Harry -- who Lily died to save -- it would infuriate him.
Anyway, that's my theory.
Die Zimtzicke - Jun 14, 2006 11:38 am (#2501 of 2969)
Edited Jun 14, 2006 12:39 pm
Back to an earlier point- I see no similarities between Narcissa making a vow with Snape and Lily possibly having made one behind James' back with Snape.
Lucius is in prison and while he's keeping himself safe to maybe come back to her some day, I doubt if he's much help to Narcissa. Snape can be a help to Narcissa, because she wants him to keep an eye on Draco who is living in the house Snape oversees.
Lily making a vow with Snape has none of these elements. James was presumably there during the time period we're talking about, and Lily and James had Harry with them.
wynnleaf - Jun 14, 2006 11:51 am (#2502 of 2969)
Die Zimtzicke,
I'm not sure that anyone actually saw the two Vows (one only a possibility), as similar. The confusion was over exactly what was meant when someone commented on the wrong aspects of a spouse making such a vow with another person, unbeknownst to their spouse. Apparently, the biggest concern wasn't a married person accepting such a vow without their spouse's knowledge, but accepting such a vow from their spouse's enemy. Narcissa was only brought up because she accepted a vow without her spouse's knowledge and it wasn't considered a problem by the characters at the time. That of course, was not the same as accepting such a vow from one's spouse's enemy.
I am only speaking of my understanding of the discussion.
TomProffitt - Jun 14, 2006 12:12 pm (#2503 of 2969)
Snape has lots of explanations but no good excuses for treating Harry so poorly. --- journeymom
I couldn't agree more. It disgusts me that a teacher would have less maturity than the student he torments. Severus does not strike me as someone who is willing to do the right thing if it is not absolutely necessary. Dumbledore may be correct in trusting that Severus has truly turned away from Tom Riddle, but I would not trust someone with so little self control with anything else.
rambkowalczyk - Jun 14, 2006 6:52 pm (#2504 of 2969)
I see no similarities between Narcissa making a vow with Snape and Lily possibly having made one behind James' back with Snape. Die Z
One similarity is that Snape did this to save the child. Draco's life was in danger because of what his father did (lose horcrux) or didn't do (not get prophecy). Harry's life was in danger because of what Snape did. But both were in danger from Voldemort. In both cases it was an attempt to do the right thing although I will admit in Harry's case it is also an attempt to atone for his previous actions.
As I mentioned before Snape trying to save the life of Harry after Voldemort chooses to kill him has a symmetry to James saving Snape's life when threatened by Lupin. In both instances each is saving the life of someone that they had previously put in danger.
Obviously at this point any vow Snape made to Lily is speculation. I don't necessarily think that Snape would have to do it behind James' back. It would be unusual for Snape to ask for forgiveness because he would rightly fear that it wouldn't be given. But if he truly regretted his actions as Dumbledore said he did, this might be the exception that proves the rule. Nothing James or Lily would do could make him feel worse. He would want to make the vow to show he meant what he said.
Solitaire - Jun 14, 2006 8:53 pm (#2505 of 2969)
Ramb, I don't really want to get back on this issue, but I was the one who said I couldn't see Lily going behind James's back to make such a vow with Snape. Since (I am assuming) Snape and James didn't have a relationship, it isn't the same thing (to me).
Solitaire
Saracene - Jun 15, 2006 2:01 am (#2506 of 2969)
Regarding Snape's attittude to Harry and how his feelings for Lily would fit into it, I think it entirely believable that he would treat Harry worse rather than better. As was remarked already, Harry is a split image of his father who Snape hates. And I think that if Snape cared for Lily and was partly responsible for her death, then IMO the primary emotions associated with her would be not some warm and fuzzy recollection of his school love, but a feeling of horrible guilt. Even decent, un-Snapelike people may often lash out against those who remind them of their guilt.
journeymom - Jun 15, 2006 8:41 am (#2507 of 2969)
Regarding whether or not James (and Lily) would forgive Snape for putting LV onto them, it's important to remember that Snape is not responsible for LV's actions. I would hope that the Potters would remember that regardless of what LV does with the information, Snape is not guilty of persecuting the Potters himself. He's guilty of taking the prophecy to a murderer. And the wizarding world and Jo's readers should remember that Snape did not kill the Potters. Even after Snape gave the prophecy to him, Lord Voldemort didn't have to kill the Potters. That action rests squarely on LV's shoulders.
Catherine - Jun 15, 2006 8:48 am (#2508 of 2969)
Journeymom,
Voldemort made the choice to hunt the Potters, but Snape gave him the ammunition to do it.
Snape had to have known that his information would be putting someone at risk.
Solitaire - Jun 15, 2006 9:13 am (#2509 of 2969)
Snape had to have known that his information would be putting someone at risk.
I think that is the bottom line, Catherine. Whether it was the Potters, the Longbottoms, or some unknown couple or family, Snape must have known--given Voldemort's desire for ultimate power--that he was delivering a death warrant for some unborn child. How unfortunate for Snape that Voldemort's target turned out to be none other than the man (and the son of the man) to whom Snape owed a life debt.
Solitaire
haymoni - Jun 15, 2006 10:03 am (#2510 of 2969)
Or...the target turned out to be the son of the woman that he loved.
TomProffitt - Jun 15, 2006 10:45 am (#2511 of 2969)
Or...the target turned out to be the son of the woman that he loved. Draco wasn't born in July.
haymoni - Jun 15, 2006 10:55 am (#2512 of 2969)
Ah...perhaps Snape is a man of many tastes - blondes, red heads...
wynnleaf - Jun 15, 2006 11:12 am (#2513 of 2969)
I know we've had this discussion before -- to what degree is Snape culpable for turning over the partial prophecy to LV?
I guess it all depends.... We don't know anything about why Snape joined LV in the first place, what communications were like between LV and the DE's, or even just how deadly LV was at that point. We don't know how publically his killings were until right around the time of the year before the Potter's deaths -- at which point if was obvious to anyone that LV killed people. But we don't know at what point his murders became public. He was committing murders even while at Hogwarts and even DD didn't know at the time.
So we don't know for certain that when Snape joined LV in his late teens, if a new recruit would know that LV was a murderer.
If Snape knew at the time that LV was a vicious murderer with absolutely no conscious who would definitely try to kill anyone, including a baby, just on the strength of a prophecy from an old fraud (usually) like Trelawney, then his taking that prophecy to LV was practically an accessory before the fact of murder.
BUT, if LV's murders were still secretive, then it's possible that a young, rather new DE could hear the partial prophecy and take it to LV not realizing that he was practically signing some unknown person's death warrent.
Personally, I think that Snape has truly turned from the evil side, but to what degree were the depths of his wrongdoings -- well, I don't think we know that for sure at this point.
TomProffitt - Jun 15, 2006 11:21 am (#2514 of 2969)
wynnleaf, from the descriptions we've received from other characters about those times (mostly from Hagrid & the elder Weasleys) we know that Riddle was openly bad. I believe from things we heard from Sirius we knew that things were bad while the Marauders were at school.
In this country(the US) accessories to murder before the fact are charged as if they committed the act themselves.
Severus may have been denying things to himself, but there can be little doubt (particularly when one considers the wording of the prophecy) that Riddle would have taken extreme measures. We can argue mitigating circumstances for Severus but we are denying things to ourselves if we accept exonerating arguments.
Catherine - Jun 15, 2006 11:31 am (#2515 of 2969)
Edited Jun 15, 2006 12:33 pm
Voldemort and his Death Eaters liked to publicize their kills by sending up the Dark Mark, the same mark that Death Eaters have branded on their skin by Voldemort. That's hardly secret.
I can't imagine that if , as it is said in HbP, Voldemort and his followers killed enough people to make an army of Inferi, that someone like Snape would not realize that Voldemort would use any means to achieve his ends.
Regulus Black, perhaps, did not realize at first what would be required of him when he joined the Death Eaters, but he realized it very soon and tried to back out. Snape would presumably have had ample time to recognize what the effect of sharing the prophecy with Voldemort might be.
haymoni - Jun 15, 2006 12:04 pm (#2516 of 2969)
How did Snape know to listen in on Trelawney?
wynnleaf - Jun 15, 2006 1:41 pm (#2517 of 2969)
Somehow or another, JKR decided to write Snape's actions as having been to some degree reviewed by the MOM and he was released. I assume that the Wizengamot and the MOM didn't know about Snape's part in taking the prophecy to LV.
However, everyone by the fall of LV knew that the DE's and LV were involved in widespread murder. And the MOM learned, perhaps from DD, certainly from other DE's, that Snape had indeed once been a DE.
There must have been some reason why they felt that he either did not need to be charged, or could be pardoned, or whatever, for his role as a DE. Personally, I'd consider any deatheater who helped LV in any way to be an accessory to murder, or even guilty of murder, because even if he didn't commit the acts himself, he helped in the overall actions.
Point being -- the MOM either didn't prosecute Snape, or pardoned him. You don't "make up" for murders by helping out with the war effort as a spy, regardless how risky it was. So they either had to decide he wasn't truly guilty of that, or for some reason there wasn't enough there to prosecute him -- or they pardoned him.
I was trying to come up with a reason for why that happened. Like I said, helping out as a DE in any way is basically being an accessory to many murders. But the MOM still let Snape go. He may have been in Azkaban very briefly, but he was clearly teaching at Hogwarts too long for any stay in Azkaban to be any more than nominal.
Of course, I don't think too much of the justice of the MOM. Still, they (or the Wizengamot) and DD did not seem to think it wrong for him to go free. And not only that, but to teach at Hogwarts -- which after all is also governed by the MOM.
This makes me think that JKR could probably, if pressed and she decided to answer, give some reason for why Snape was not actually guilty of murder. But of course, I could be wrong.
TomProffitt - Jun 15, 2006 3:10 pm (#2518 of 2969)
I think Severus got the "Spy's Pardon." He was put in the place of choosing either Azkaban for life or be a spy. Dumbledore vouched for his reliability as a spy and that was good enough for Barty Crouch. Karkarof was able to trade names for his freedom, but Severus's price was steeper because his guilt was steeper.
Catherine - Jun 15, 2006 3:33 pm (#2519 of 2969)
Point being -- the MOM either didn't prosecute Snape, or pardoned him. You don't "make up" for murders by helping out with the war effort as a spy, regardless how risky it was. So they either had to decide he wasn't truly guilty of that, or for some reason there wasn't enough there to prosecute him -- or they pardoned him.
Are we really trusting the MOM for whom they arrest and whom they don't? See Books 1-6 for details.
Snape's lack of prosecution doesn't attest to his innocence.
Die Zimtzicke - Jun 15, 2006 3:47 pm (#2520 of 2969)
No, Dumbledore attested to Snape's innnocence, and he must have had a reason. And I still say Harry's life was saved by Snape more than once. Better to be picked on and alive than treated well in class, and killed outside of class.
TomProffitt - Jun 15, 2006 4:28 pm (#2521 of 2969)
Edited Jun 15, 2006 5:29 pm
No, Dumbledore attested to Snape's innocence, and he must have had a reason. --- Die Zimtzicke
It was my impression that Dumbledore vouched for Snape's reliability and remorse. I don't think DD ever said "Snape is innocent" he said that Snape no longer served Riddle, that he had shown remorse, and that he was trusted. None of these things speak to innocence, they are more of a plea bargain.
Sun Tzu said in On War (written circa 300 BCE) that spies should be turned & not killed. When you catch a spy you make him work for you and not the other guy. This is what Crouch and Dumbledore did with Snape.
wynnleaf - Jun 15, 2006 6:29 pm (#2522 of 2969)
Edited Jun 15, 2006 7:30 pm
When you catch a spy you make him work for you and not the other guy. This is what Crouch and Dumbledore did with Snape.
And you have him join your teaching staff and teach the eleven year old kids for 16 years and say "I trust him" over and over and over, in spite of all sorts of temperamental behavior..... Personally, I think trust is something quite different from coercion. Would DD trust a murderer? Perhaps over many years and evidence of change, yes. Would he place a person guilty of murder in charge of his students with barely any passage of time? (remember that Snape was probably teaching several months before the Potter's deaths and only at most a year after turning from LV.)
I agree -- Snape is not "innocent." But there's a lot of room between "innocent" of any number of various offences and "guilty of murder." What I was addressing in my last post was the degree of Snape's culpability in murder -- not whether or not he was completely "innocent" or not.
Are we really trusting the MOM for whom they arrest and whom they don't?
Also, I did already state that the MOM's justice is not reliable.
Ann - Jun 15, 2006 6:59 pm (#2523 of 2969)
Just a remark on the question of whether Snape could have joined Voldemort without knowing what he was signing on to do. He cannot have done that. Dumbledore refers quite pointedly, in the first book, to the fact that the eleven years before Voldemort's disastrous (to him) attack on the Potters were a time of attacks and danger. That means that Voldemort came out of the closet (so to speak) in 1970, and didn't let up until 1981. Snape (and Wormtail--and for that matter the slightly younger Regulus Black) cannot have been ignorant of what they were signing on to.
TomProffitt - Jun 16, 2006 4:48 am (#2524 of 2969)
Snape (and Wormtail--and for that matter the slightly younger Regulus Black) cannot have been ignorant of what they were signing on to. --- Ann
Really what it is is self-delusion. Knowing and understanding are often quite different. I think Severus bought into the propaganda, "Wizards are better, muggles are sub-human." It didn't become real and personal for him until (effectively, not literally) he sent people he knew to gallows.
What I was addressing in my last post was the degree of Snape's culpability in murder -- not whether or not he was completely "innocent" or not. --- wynnleaf
To me Dumbledore is the kind of person that tries to see what is in someone's heart and not judge them by their actions. I think that for Albus the concern is not what someone has done in the past, but what someone will do in the future. I think that this is how he can bring Severus to his school despite his level of culpability in the death of Lily & James Potter. Essentially what I'm saying is that Dumbledore possesses a level of trust and forgiveness that I don't possess myself. Were I in DD's place I would never have trusted Snape, but I'm most certainly not Albus Dumbledore. From what we've seen on the printed page thus far I have no idea who's right and who's wrong.
wynnleaf - Jun 16, 2006 5:07 am (#2525 of 2969)
Edited Jun 16, 2006 6:09 am
Really what it is is self-delusion. Knowing and understanding are often quite different. I think Severus bought into the propaganda, "Wizards are better, muggles are sub-human." It didn't become real and personal for him until (effectively, not literally) he sent people he knew to gallows.
I agree with this, although I'm not sure whether what Snape was buying into was the parts about muggles being sub-human, or some other aspect of LV. We haven't been told yet.
We had a long discussion back in the Fall on this topic. LV was recruiting many of his DE's as teenagers. In real life, terrorist organizations often recruit among the young. Not meaning to disparage an entire age group by any means, but it seems many young people in terrorist groups are pretty deluded as to the realities of the organization until they've been in it a while. For many, they seem to get trapped and end up following orders to commit terrible acts often because they are threatened with harm to their families, or threatened with exposure if they try to leave -- their association with the organization having already made them, at least as far as they know, warrenting death if they are exposed and caught. Others continue to buy into whatever the propaganda of the group is in a wholehearted, very delusional sort of way. But it does seem much easier for these groups to target young people.
Notice also that terrorist groups not only recruit the young, but often young people who already feel resentful and targeted by what they grow to see as the "enemy."
TomProffitt - Jun 16, 2006 5:17 am (#2526 of 2969)
Exactly, wynnleaf, the human brain doesn't finish developing until (on average) age 20 or so. The ability to fully understand the consequences of your actions is tied to it. This how Malvo could be recruited into the DC Sniper shootings and why terrorists, fascists, etc. recruit the young. This is why teenagers can make those big stupid mistakes (like flying the car to school) and not really understand how they could have been that dumb.
But as my Dad put it to me (he was a Juvenile & Family Court probation officer in the 60s), "Okay, he's kid and didn't understand what he was doing, but he still participated in murder, what do you do with him?" He's been indoctrinated, is it safe to return someone like that to society?
haymoni - Jun 16, 2006 5:20 am (#2527 of 2969)
Edited Jun 16, 2006 6:21 am
I don't know about that, Ann. If you read Sirius's comments in OotP, he says loads of folks agreed with Voldy's pureblood beliefs, but then backed off when they saw what he really wanted to do.
I guessing it is one thing to only want purebloods in Hogwarts or in the Ministry, but to kill people off or use Unforgiveable Curses may have changed a few minds.
At least that's how I took Regulus's situation.
Snape may have been spouting the pureblood philosophy, but he may not have known how far Voldy wanted to take things.
And once you are in, it's not like you can just say, "I'm done playing. I want to go home."
Steve Newton - Jun 16, 2006 5:28 am (#2528 of 2969)
"the human brain doesn't finish developing until (on average) age 20 or so"
I guess thats it for me. Sigh. All down hill from here. My brain stopped developing decades ago.
Hollywand - Jun 16, 2006 6:36 am (#2529 of 2969)
Edited Jun 16, 2006 7:37 am
Steve, you can console yourself by thinking of Harry: eleven years under the stairs, seven years being chased by an evil wizard, only two years of bliss, then it's downhill.... ;-)
Ann - Jun 16, 2006 8:08 am (#2530 of 2969)
Edited Jun 16, 2006 9:10 am
haymoni said "I don't know about that, Ann. If you read Sirius's comments in OotP, he says loads of folks agreed with Voldy's pureblood beliefs, but then backed off when they saw what he really wanted to do."
But the problem is, we don't know what period he was talking about. Dumbledore said (twice) in PS/SS that the first war lasted eleven years. That's an odd number, really, and it suggests a definite moment of its beginning. (Coincidentally, that moment is at exactly the same time that many timelines mark as the Marauders' first year at Hogwarts, 1970.) I always assumed that the period Sirius was talking about was before the war, when Voldemort was arguing his pureblood beliefs but had not yet begun to attack those who disagreed. I'd have put this period between the time of his visit to Dumbledore (newly made headmaster of Hogwarts in winter 1956, when McGonagall began teaching Transfiguration) and 1970, when war broke out.
But unless Regulus became a DE before the age of 9, Voldemort was already at war with the British wizarding world when he joined. So I think Tom must have been right about Regulus deluding himself, if he was shocked by Voldemort's tactics as Sirius says. Snape, however, I would see as being a bit more aware of what sort of thing he was getting into, but being was angry enough not to care. I think he had dehumanized the victims in his head--until one of the victims was someone he knew and liked. I think this was Lily, rather than Lily and James. James was one of the people he was (is) angry at.
Potter Ace - Jun 16, 2006 8:34 am (#2531 of 2969)
Solitaire - #2407 So you do not believe Snape is the DE whom Voldemort believes "has left me forever" and will be killed? Just wondering ...
I thought that this was Head of Durmstag (sorry can't recall the name) whom ended up dead at the beginning of OotP? I recall that there 3 or 4 references to DE's that did not return when called, have they all been pointed out somewhere?
Magic Words - Jun 16, 2006 10:24 am (#2532 of 2969)
He gave some names, mentioned the "faithful servant at Hogwarts" (Crouch), one "too cowardly to return" (I assumed that was Karkaroff, since we know he fled in fear), and one "that has left me forever." Process of elimination leaves Snape; it could have been someone we don't suspect, but that would raise the question of why Voldemort didn't mention Snape at all.
haymoni - Jun 16, 2006 10:30 am (#2533 of 2969)
I always took that passage the same way you did, Magic Words.
Did we have a recent JKR quote to back that up? Something in the Emerson/Melissa interview perhaps??
Solitaire - Jun 16, 2006 12:14 pm (#2534 of 2969)
that would raise the question of why Voldemort didn't mention Snape at all
Snape had not yet returned, remember ... he came two hours later. At the time Voldemort made the statement, maybe he thought Snape had left him forever.
Solitaire
Magic Words - Jun 16, 2006 12:16 pm (#2535 of 2969)
That's what I meant, Solitaire. It wouldn't make sense for the one who left forever to be anyone other than Snape, because Voldemort mentioned everyone who wasn't there, so he must have mentioned him.
wynnleaf - Jun 16, 2006 1:17 pm (#2536 of 2969)
After finishing GOF, I assumed the "too cowardly" person was Karkarov, and that LV knew about the cowardliness through Crouch, Jr. As Magic Words said, that just leaves Snape for the one gone forever. Since Snape himself says in Spinners End that LV mostly identified him that way, it seems to indicate that it was indeed Snape that LV meant in the graveyard.
Choices - Jun 16, 2006 5:44 pm (#2537 of 2969)
Snape himself tells us which one he was...."Yes, the Dark Lord thought that I had left him forever, but he was wrong." Ch. Spinner's End - p. 29 (top of page) Scholastic Hardcover edition
haymoni - Jun 17, 2006 5:37 pm (#2538 of 2969)
I knew it was somewhere! Thanks, Choices!
Choices - Jun 17, 2006 5:39 pm (#2539 of 2969)
You're very welcome! :-)
rambkowalczyk - Jun 18, 2006 4:33 am (#2540 of 2969)
Regarding Voldemorts statement at the graveyard 1 a traitor, one who has left me forever--he will be killed 2 a coward--he will be punished 3 my most faithfull servent--he will be rewarded.
Everyone assumes that Barty Crouch jr is #3. with Karkaroff and Snape vying for positions one and two.
After reading book 4, it was easier to conclude that Snape was the traitor and Karkaroff was the coward.
Except in book 5 Snape isn't dead and in book 6 Karkaroff is killed. One could then argue that Karkaroff was the traitor because he gave up names--Rookwood. That leaves Snape being the coward which in Voldemort's eyes makes the most sense since Snape did return two hours later. Plus Snape gets very defensive when he is called a coward.
The ironic thing is that Snape could easily be any of those three positions.
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Solitaire - Jun 18, 2006 8:02 am (#2541 of 2969)
That's the thing about Snape ... a lot of what he says and does can be interpreted from two different perspectives. He himself proves this at Spinner's End, when he explains his actions--and inaction--to Bella. Things that have been interpreted by Dumbledore and others as protecting Harry are interpreted differently by Snape. JM2K ...
Solitaire
Magic Words - Jun 18, 2006 8:52 am (#2542 of 2969)
I think Crouch has to be the faithful servant. He and Wormtail were the only ones providing any service, the entire book. As for Snape and Karkaroff... at this point, does it matter which was the coward and which the traitor? One is dead and the other has successfully changed Voldemort's mind. (Unless Snape was the coward and Voldemort fully intended to accept him back once he was punished. But again, does it matter?)
rambkowalczyk - Jun 18, 2006 4:28 pm (#2543 of 2969)
Edited Jun 18, 2006 5:29 pm
But again, does it matter?) Magic Words
If the answer to the questions are the above speculations, no maybe not.
In my previous post 2540, I wanted to point out that at various times in the book Snape can be thought of as any one of the three, and arguments can be made for either. I think this was deliberate on Jo's part.
But the answer to that question would be very significant if it turns out that Snape isn't the answer to any of those possibilities. If that is the case then Crouch is his most faithful servant, Karkaroff is the traitor, and the coward is someone like Fudge or Ludo Bagman.
Mrs. D. - Jun 21, 2006 9:19 am (#2544 of 2969)
A few of my thoughts on Snape.
1. He really isn't a good guy. Something tells me that had the curse been about the Longbottoms, he would never have turned spy for DD. That says much for his character.
2. There is no way he took a vow with Lily to protect Harry. I cannot reconcile an UV with how he treats Harry during the occlumency lessons. He never really tried to teach Harry. He rather enjoyed torturing him though.
3. Even if he ends up saving Harry, having not killed DD, or whatever, he deep down is still a slithering snake. If he only went against Voldemort for Lily's sake, it was still selfish on his part. I'm not sure he can be fully redeemed.
Even with that said, I STILL find myself liking him. Perhaps it is the movie contamination though. I did see the first movie before ever reading the book and I do love Alan Rickman. I wish I could seperate the two and really read the novels without him in my head. I think I might like Snape much less then.
Choices - Jun 21, 2006 9:43 am (#2545 of 2969)
Mrs. D - "Even with that said, I STILL find myself liking him. Perhaps it is the movie contamination though. I did see the first movie before ever reading the book and I do love Alan Rickman. I wish I could seperate the two and really read the novels without him in my head. I think I might like Snape much less then."
LOL Join the club!
haymoni - Jun 21, 2006 9:57 am (#2546 of 2969)
Gina hates when I say this, but I first read SS right before the movie came out and all I could picture was Gargamel - the guy from the Smurfs - whenever I saw Snape.
I was greatly relieved when I saw Alan Rickman!
Now I see a combination of Gargamel, Alan Rickman and the picture JKR drew of Snape where he has the collar that reminds me of the Mayor of Munchinland.
wynnleaf - Jun 21, 2006 10:01 am (#2547 of 2969)
haymoni,
You said the picture JKR drew of Snape where he has the collar that reminds me of the Mayor of Munchinland.
I don't think I've ever seen that. Where is it?
haymoni - Jun 21, 2006 10:05 am (#2548 of 2969)
I'm pretty sure she showed it during that "Biography" show, but I seem to recall seeing it on the internet as well.
I'll search around for it.
Catherine - Jun 21, 2006 10:06 am (#2549 of 2969)
I'd forgotten about the "Gargamel" image.
That's what I initially pictured, too. Alan Rickman is much more appealing.
haymoni - Jun 21, 2006 10:41 am (#2550 of 2969)
OK wynnleaf - as I am not able to insert ANYTHING in my posts, I emailed you the sketch copy I found on the internet to the email address in your profile.
sere35 - Jun 21, 2006 4:28 pm (#2551 of 2969)
Snape is the truest Slytherin of all. Snape is out for and on the side of only Snape. He will do whatever it takes to survive if that is siding with dumbledore he did it if its supporting Voldermort he will do it.
As to who he loved at one point. At first I thought it was Lily which would go along with him my theory of him being at Lilys house and that is how perunia find out about dementors. Petunia was spying on Lily and snape. But I think that is to obvious so I dont realy know.
Saracene - Jun 22, 2006 3:08 am (#2552 of 2969)
I love Alan Rickman but he is -not- my picture of Snape. He's at least fifteen years too old, too attractive and charismatic and definitely not skinny and greasy enough. Plus Steven Kloves seems intent to soften Snape's nastier edges as much as possible - which IMO does a disservice to the book character.
wynnleaf - Jun 22, 2006 3:59 am (#2553 of 2969)
Edited Jun 22, 2006 5:03 am
Where in canon are we told that a characteristic of Slytherin is being out for yourself? Being ambitious is not the same thing, by the way. Neither is wanting to prove oneself. I'm not saying it's not in canon somewhere, but I can't find it.
It's interesting to me that Draco was first interested in what he could personally get out of his mission -- the glory, that is. But when he was getting more frustrated and frightened of failure, the thing that kept him going wasn't what he could get out of it for himself, but his desire to protect his family. So commitment to family was the overriding motivator, not personal ambition. And Draco is surely a thoroughgoing Slytherin.
Saracene, I agree entirely. When I first heard Rickman was to play Snape I thought it would be good, but I was remembering him in films where he's younger. Snape is only in his mid to later 30's in the books. And I always pictured a thinner person. Rickman is actually thinner than he looks in the films -- the costumes they use for him make him look a bit bulkier. But still, I think of Snape's face a rather lean, and Rickman's definitely isn't. And I agree about the film character being softened. I'm curious to see how they'll do Snape in the OOTP film, especially when he needs to seem the same age as Sirius and Lupin.
haymoni - Jun 22, 2006 4:25 am (#2554 of 2969)
wynnleaf - I think it is Phineas Nigellus who says something when Harry is packing to leave #12 because he thinks he is possessed by Voldy.
Phineas says something like "You should have been in my own house" and something about "saving your own skin". And Harry says he isn't doing that and Phineas says "Ah, then this is a noble..." something.
No books!
Saracene - Jun 22, 2006 4:41 am (#2555 of 2969)
I think Phineas says something along the lines of, "we Slytherins are brave but not stupid. Given the choice, we will always choose to save our own necks."
haymoni - Jun 22, 2006 4:59 am (#2556 of 2969)
That's the one! Thanks!
haymoni - Jun 22, 2006 10:31 am (#2557 of 2969)
Edited Jun 22, 2006 11:31 am
I was re-reading GOF today during lunch and I got to the hospital scene.
When Snape reacts to Harry's mention of Lucius, I was wondering if the 2 of them may have had some discussions about their now "cushy" lifestyles without Voldy around.
Snape could have been reacting to the fact that Lucius was willing to give that all up to go back to Voldy. Certainly his contacts at the Ministry would have been able to protect him if he decided not to go back to Voldy.
Perhaps Snape realizes that he is truly alone.
Greyback Hunter - Jun 22, 2006 4:41 pm (#2558 of 2969)
I don't know if this has been mentioned before in this thread, I haven't had time to read all 2557 posts. Anyway I thought I'd toss this out and see what happens. Since Haymoni mentioned GOF in the last post I thought this might be relevant since it concerns a theory I've developed from something that occurs in the GOF movie. I've looked through several other threads on this board and I haven't seen anyone else mention this so I thought I'd bring it up here.
During the scene where Harry encounters Snape and Karkaroff discussing the dark mark in Snape's store room I believe a clue is given as to how Harry will ultimately find the remaining horcruxes. Snape hauls Harry into the store room and accuses him of stealing the ingredients for polyjuice potion. It's during this scene that he introduces Veritaserum and threatens Harry with it. This scene appears in both the book and the movie but there is a slight difference that occurs in the movie. In the book Snape tells Harry about the potion and says, '...a Truth Potion so powerful that three drops would have you spilling your innermost secrets for this entire class to hear..'(GOF 27). He utters the same line in the movie except there is just a slight change. Instead of using Harry as an example Snape says that '..three drops of this would have the Dark Lord himself spilling his darkest secrets...'.
I think that pretty much says it all. In 'Spinner's End' Narcissa speaks of how Voldemort now trusts Snape. We know that Snape is an extremely accomplished Occlumens and it's pretty certain that Voldy can't read his thoughts. Therefore who better to devise a plan in which Voldemort could successfully be given Veritaserum in some way, and then spill his 'darkest secrets' (the horcruxes and their locations) to none other than Severus Snape.
This is how I figure Harry will learn about the remaining hocruxes and their whereabouts though I'm not sure Snape will be the one who tells him. With all the loose ends that need to be tied up in this last book I really believe that this would be a quick, clever and effective way for JKR to move this issue of the horcruxes along.
Well?
Magic Words - Jun 22, 2006 4:47 pm (#2559 of 2969)
I wondered about that line, actually, because JKR answered a question about Veritaserum on her website and said there are ways to counter it. It worked on Barty Crouch Jr. because he was weakened at the time, but someone stronger could have used Occlumency against it, if I remember correctly.
That being said, it's not impossible for Snape to find a way to give it to Voldemort without him being on his guard enough to counter it. I guess I always figured Snape could get information if he wanted it, and didn't give much thought to whether this would be through shrewd questioning, spying, or truth potions.
Soul Search - Jun 22, 2006 4:54 pm (#2560 of 2969)
Greyback Hunter, Interesting. Voldemort is certainly the one person that knows where all the horcruxes are.
One problem is that Voldemort can't know that anyone is hunting his horcruxes. Otherwise, he could rescue them first or make more.
So, can Veritaserum be used without the recipient being aware of it?
Another is, it is unclear if Snape knows about Dumbledore's interest in Voldemorts history and the horcruxes. It could be risky, Snape being with Voldemort, also a good legitemens.
Yet, what else would be so important to sacrifice Dumbledore so Voldemort would trust Snape more?
Choices - Jun 22, 2006 5:04 pm (#2561 of 2969)
If Snape dared use Veritaserum on Voldemort and Voldemort was aware of it, it would surely jeopardize more than just Snape's career as a spy....I think he would be toast!!
Soul Search - Jun 22, 2006 5:24 pm (#2562 of 2969)
How about Voldemort trusts Snape so much that he tasks him to check on his horcruxes.
Magic Words - Jun 22, 2006 5:26 pm (#2563 of 2969)
Snape knowing about the Horcruxes would be a calculated risk that, I think, would be well worth it. He's in the best position to find out where they are, if he knows what he's looking for. Yes, if Voldemort ever reads his mind he'd know they were being hunted, but there's so much depending on Snape's Occlumency ability, it almost doesn't matter. Certainly if Voldemort learned that he'd helped DD with the ring, even if Snape didn't know what it was, Voldemort would realize that DD had found and destroyed one Horcrux (the second of six).
Soul Search - Jun 22, 2006 5:38 pm (#2564 of 2969)
Good thoughts, Magic Words. I also thought it unlikely that Dumbledore could have kept his fifteen-odd years of Voldemort/horcrux research from Snape. Snape could have even been useful, knowing Voldemort and DEs when he was a DE.
What bothers me, though, is Dumbledore never hinting to Harry that Snape could help. Maybe he would have later, or will somehow, but Harry knowing about Snape would be important to the horcrux hunt. Dumbledore did impress Harry with Snape's dark arts knowledge and ability to heal dark spell effects. The sectrumsempra scene also reinforced this.
Of course, if he had, then we wouldn't have this delicious Snape good/bad mystery.
Die Zimtzicke - Jun 22, 2006 5:44 pm (#2565 of 2969)
If Snape is completely evil, which I do not believe, but I know some folks do, why did he merely give Harry detentions for almost killing Draco? It was obviously a Dark Spell that Harry used. Snape recognized it at once. Yet Harry got off with a very mild punishment for almost killing someone. Even McGonagall is surprised he didn't get worse.
I can't stand it when Harry uses Dark Spells or unforgivables. I think he has to rise above all that to win. And I don't know why, if Snape is pure evil, he didn't take advanatge of that situation.
Jewel - Jun 22, 2006 6:32 pm (#2566 of 2969)
Soul Search.....What bothers me, though, is Dumbledore never hinting to Harry that Snape could help.
Maybe DD didn't tell Harry that Snape could help with the horcruxes, but he did remind him of Snape's status with the Order after the death of Sirius.
Harry has been told many times by Dumbledore that he trusts Snape, it is Harry that chooses not to trust Snape, for his own reasons. That lack of trust is shown when he "forgets" about Snape being in the Order when he goes to the MOM.
Personally, if I don't trust someone, I wouldn't immediately think of going to them for help in a time of panic. Of course after the dangers are over, most think to themselves, "If I had only..." I think that is what Harry is thinking to himself, no matter how much he loathes Snape, he could have possibly saved Sirius.
Mediwitch - Jun 22, 2006 7:39 pm (#2567 of 2969)
Edited Jun 22, 2006 8:39 pm
Jewel - I agree with your point about Harry not trusting Snape. I suspect that may be why Dumbledore did not discuss Snape's level of knowledge regarding Voldemort's horcruxes with Harry, if indeed Snape actually does know about them. Harry would need to learn to trust Snape before he could turn to Snape for help.
wynnleaf - Jun 22, 2006 8:02 pm (#2568 of 2969)
Edited Jun 22, 2006 9:39 pm
If DD told Snape about the horcruxes, yet Snape didn't tell LV that DD was after the horcruxes, then that's just about certain proof of Snape's loyalties. Because of that, there is no way that JKR can let the reader know if DD told Snape about the horcruxes. We can't be told.
Further, within the confines of the plot, Harry can't be told either. If DD and Snape planned for Snape to AK DD, with Harry as the prime witness, DD cannot give Harry proof that Snape is in fact loyal to DD. Otherwise, Harry, who is not the best with guarding his thoughts, will not make a good witness for Snape murdering DD.
DD can't tell Harry that Snape knows about horcruxes, and JKR can't tell the readers.
Pamzter - Jun 22, 2006 8:11 pm (#2569 of 2969)
With regards to Snape giving Veritaserum to LV, or anyone for that matter . . . he does have a new little roommate whom he has serve drinks to guests. Wonder how well the serum mixes with the finest elf wine.
haymoni - Jun 23, 2006 4:14 am (#2570 of 2969)
I'm guessing Voldy is as paranoid as Moody.
We've never actually seen or heard of him eating - other than the "Nagini Serum".
I wonder if he's found a way around that??
Solitaire - Jun 23, 2006 8:52 am (#2571 of 2969)
Edited Jun 23, 2006 9:54 am
If Snape knew what all the Horcruxes were and where they are located--and Dumbledore would certainly have known this if Snape is on the side of the Order--don't you think Dumbledore would have destroyed all of the Horcruxes by now? At the very least, he would have told Harry which things were Horcruxes and/or where to find them. Either Snape doesn't know, or he isn't telling. JM2K, of course ...
Solitaire
Magic Words - Jun 23, 2006 11:02 am (#2572 of 2969)
Edited Jun 23, 2006 12:03 pm
Dumbledore didn't suspect multiple Horcruxes until year two, correct? If we assume that Snape can learn of them because of his association with Voldemort, he's had about two years so far to work on getting the information (end of GoF to end of HBP), counting the time he's at Hogwarts and not in much contact with Voldemort or his DE's. So basically he's had two summers. In that time, four Horcruxes and two of their locations have been identified. Now, much of this work was Dumbledore's, but I don't see why Snape couldn't have been helping where he could.
haymoni - Jun 23, 2006 11:15 am (#2573 of 2969)
In the graveyard scene, after Voldy smells "guilt" on everybody, he says:
"And then I ask myself, but how could they have believed I would not rise again? They, who knew the steps I took, long ago, to guard myself against mortal death? They, who had seen proofs of the immensity of my power in the times when I was mightier than any wizard living?"
So what steps did the DEs know about? Did they actually know about the Horcruxes? Horcrux? Something else? Maybe it was just the "association with the worst of our kind".
Die Zimtzicke - Jun 23, 2006 4:21 pm (#2574 of 2969)
Harry forgot a lot of things he should have remembered...not just that Snape was in the Order. He also forgot about the mirror, for example.
He also forgot that he has to control his emotions, which Snape helpfully reminded him to do, even at a critical moment. Harry IS going to have to be more focused to win. Snape gave him good advice at the end, besides keeping the other Death Eaters from taking or seriously hurting Harry.
The Artful Dodger - Jun 24, 2006 1:40 am (#2575 of 2969)
Edited Jun 24, 2006 2:41 am
JKR says she doesn't think Harry will ever learn Occlumency, so I don't expect it to happen, give or take Snape's "advice" at the end of HBP. Besides, why should Harry learn to shut down his greatest strength?
wynnleaf - Jun 24, 2006 5:47 am (#2576 of 2969)
The Artful Dodger,
I assume you mean Snape's advice for Harry to keep his mouth shut and his mind closed.
You have a good point. However, Snape's advice is still very useful. If Harry can't quit practically mentally telegraphing what his next curse is going to be to his opponent, then he needs to somehow adjust for that factor. Harry will probably get better at nonverbal spells, but Snape is right about the problem of all Harry's intentions and emotions being right there on the surface, and that being a weakness. Sometimes we can't overcome certain weakness, but if that's the case, those weaknesses still have to be accounted for.
There don't seem to be a lot of wizards who could use this weakness of Harry's against him. Snape can apparently "read" what Harry's next hex or jinx is going to be. Presumably LV would be able to do the same. But I can't think of any of the DE's who have done this with Harry -- maybe Bella? Not sure.
Tom Marvolo Riddleton - Jun 28, 2006 6:19 pm (#2577 of 2969)
So what steps did the DEs know about? Did they actually know about the Horcruxes? Horcrux? Something else? Maybe it was just the "association with the worst of our kind". - haymoni
That part in GoF always troubled me. I didn't think it made much sense for R.A.B. to talk of discovering Voldemort's secret about the Horcrux in the cave unless it really was a secret, I didn't quite understand how many Horcruxes R.A.B. was supposed to have known about, and I couldn't figure out how R.A.B. could have not only discovered that Voldemort had produced a Horcrux but, most puzzling, have figured out where to find it. It seems to me that if Voldemort could have let all of this slip to a DE he probably didn't trust to well (I was under the impression that Regulus was young and wouldn't have had time to gain the Dark Lord's trust to a high degree) that it might not be unreasonable to assume that other DEs could have known of the Horcruxes, and thus Snape would be privy to knowledge, if indeed he is the Dark Lord's Golden Boy. Personally, I have the same spiteful admiration for Voldemort that Harry had when looking in the Pensieve (admiration for Voldemort's complete lack of fear at the Gaunts' house, well-said questioning of Slughorn about Horcruxes), but letting anybody but Dumbledore, who is quite intelligent, discover his secret soul fragments was a bit of a letdown. So, as for my own opinion, I think there's a back story that needs to be told about Regulus Black that will restore my confidence in the Dark Lord's abilities, and thus I don't really think Snape will know of the Horcruxes, because it's too much of a weakness on Voldemort's part.
Which, annoyingly enough, still doesn't answer the question of what the steps that were taken to guard Voldemort against mortal death. Perhaps, in the seventh book, we will learn of a Cruxhor, which is a piece of somebody else's soul that can be used towards immortality, assuming you have the dementor to steal the soul in the first place.
Ann - Jun 29, 2006 4:10 am (#2578 of 2969)
I think, from what Dumbledore says in HBP, that Rowling wanted that statement of Voldemort's to be a little joke he was making to himself. In fact, none of his followers (he believes) know about his Horcruxes, although they may know that he has researched methods for gaining immortality (unicorn blood, Nagini's milk, the Philosopher's Stone). So they know that he's looking for immortality, and has taken certain steps toward it (perhaps developing the blood/milk potion), but I agree with you that no one has been told about the Horcruxes. (Dumbledore says, for example, that Lucius didn't really know what the Diary was, and if Voldemort were going to tell anyone, he'd presumably tell Lucius.)
Regulus knew about the one Horcrux in the cave, probably because he ran accross the information by accident. He doesn't know about the others, because he thinks that destroying the locket Horcrux will make Voldemort vulnerable to death. I also think Snape knows about the Horcruxes, but from Dumbledore, not from Voldemort. After all, he helped keep Dumbledore alive after the ring Horcrux almost killed him.
Solitaire - Jun 29, 2006 9:12 am (#2579 of 2969)
You know, Ann, I was thinking about Snape's comment to Bella that Dumbledore had sustained a serious injury since the DoM debacle. That seems like information that would not normally be broadcast to the enemy.
Solitaire
haymoni - Jun 29, 2006 9:15 am (#2580 of 2969)
Does he say "since" the MOM battle or "from" the MOM battle?
Or does he say Dumbledore suffered an injury from his last encounter with the Dark Lord? Which means they had another encounter after the MOM battle?
I thought his hand was injured getting the Horcrux, but we never heard "the thrilling tale", so I guess we don't know.
At work.
No books.
wynnleaf - Jun 29, 2006 11:43 am (#2581 of 2969)
Edited Jun 29, 2006 12:44 pm
Snape does mention an injury that weakened DD since the MOM battle. In fact, if you look at timeline clues very carefully, the injury (with the ring horcrux) had probably only occurred with the past few days. Within the span of less than 1 week, DD gets injured by the horcrux, Snape saves his life, Snape has the discussion at Spinners End and makes the Vow, and DD sends a letter to Slughorn about teaching potions (who he may have already been in contact with - we don't know).
Anyway, if Snape is ESE (ever so evil, I think -- many on other sites are using this abbreviation), then it could be a disloyal action to share about DD's weakness with the Enemy. On the other hand, given that DD's hand was a pretty obvious problem, some aspects of his injury would become widely known rather quickly. So this might not really be especially "restricted" information.
However, many who think Snape is DDM (DD's Man), theorize that DD wanted the DE's and LV to think that he was getting weaker and the information Snape gave to Bella was leaked to her as part of a plan to make LV trust in DD's presumed weakness.
rambkowalczyk - Jun 29, 2006 12:29 pm (#2582 of 2969)
When I first read Spinners End, it seemed to imply that Dumbledore got the injury at the ministry of magic when dueling with Voldemort. This clearly isn't true as Harry didn't see any injury when he was talking to Dumbleddore in his office right after the battle. So Snape telling Bella that Dumbledore was injured then is a bit of misdirection isn't it?
journeymom - Jun 29, 2006 1:09 pm (#2583 of 2969)
I don't have my book now, but I remember the implication was that Dd got the injury after the battle at the MoM, and obviously sometime before we next see him. I never got the impression that he got the injury at the MoM.
TheSaint - Jun 29, 2006 2:39 pm (#2584 of 2969)
'...Dumbledore is growing old. The duel with the Dark Lord last month shook him. He has since sustained a serious injury because his reactions are slower than they once were.'
Injury was after the MOM. But that sure does seem like a lot of information for Snape to have on a casual basis.
Fawkes Egg - Jun 29, 2006 2:49 pm (#2585 of 2969)
Edited Jun 29, 2006 3:49 pm
Harry asks him what happened to his hand on page 63 of the UK edition and Dumbledore replies that "It is a thrilling tale, I wish to do it justice", so there's no implication that it happened at the MoM. Dumbledore also explains how he got the injury later on pages 470-471, raising his hand and explaining how Snape helped him recover when he returned to Hogwarts "desperately injured" after destroying the ring. Also there is Slughorn's reference on page 68: "Reactions not what they were, I see." Plenty of people saw Dumbledore with two healthy hands right after the MoM battle, so it wouldn't be surmised generally that he got the injury there. Snape may be misdirecting Bella and Narcissa at Spinner's End, but he does so with his usual mix of truths, half truths, lies and ambiguous statements.
wynnleaf - Jun 29, 2006 3:16 pm (#2586 of 2969)
Sorry, I don't have time to look it up, but DD also told Harry at another time that he injured his hand a few days before he went to get Harry. I tend to assume that he meant no more than a week at most. Snape mentions the injury (sounds like the same injury) at Spinners End. Spinners End appears to take place the same night (same fog anyway) as Fudge's visit with the PM. When Harry gets his letter from DD, it had been owled about 3 days before. There's more -- but in general, you can gradually work out the timeline. If anyone's truly interested I could look it all up and post it again, or try to search for where it's originally posted.
Anyway, when DD goes to Privet Dr. -- no more than a week since Spinners End and only a few days more since his injury -- he uses his injured hand when he draws and uses his wand with such speed that Harry can hardly see it happen. In other words, at Privet Dr. we see that the injury to his hand had apparently not weakened his reactions or abilities at all. It looks like Snape was doing a lot of misdirection at Spinners End.
Ann - Jun 29, 2006 6:33 pm (#2587 of 2969)
Edited Jun 29, 2006 7:34 pm
This doesn't really belong on the Snape thread, except that Snape is clearly spreading the information that Dumbledore has been injured (which the Death Nibblers will know anyway, as soon as school starts, and dutifully write their parents.) In fact, all through HBP we are given contadictory information abou Dumbledore's health. Harry notes that he swims like a young man in "The Cave." Something is clearly going on here, and if one assumes that Snape is indeed on the right side, one can conclude that the point of it all is to exaggerate Dumbledore's weakness. The $64,000 question, of course, is why?
TheSaint - Jun 29, 2006 8:01 pm (#2588 of 2969)
It does appear as if he is trying to make him out to be an easy mark, which suggests a plot to me.
Solitaire - Jun 29, 2006 8:04 pm (#2589 of 2969)
When Dumbledore and Harry prepare to apparate to Budleigh Babberton, he says the following to Harry: "... you will need to hold onto my arm very tightly. My left, if you don't mind--as you have noticed, my wand arm is a little fragile at the moment."
Quick or not, it seems some significant damage was done to that wand arm--significant enough that Dumbledore does not want to put any undue pressure on it.
Solitaire
Tom Marvolo Riddleton - Jun 29, 2006 9:18 pm (#2590 of 2969)
I can just picture DD at the Gaunts' house performing complicated wand movements and murmuring over the ring which he can touch but can't pick up. "I can only deduce that I must consent to wear the ring before I can obtain it..."
That's the thing about Snape ... a lot of what he says and does can be interpreted from two different perspectives. He himself proves this at Spinner's End, when he explains his actions--and inaction--to Bella. Things that have been interpreted by Dumbledore and others as protecting Harry are interpreted differently by Snape. JM2K ...
Solitaire
Magic Words - Jun 18, 2006 8:52 am (#2542 of 2969)
I think Crouch has to be the faithful servant. He and Wormtail were the only ones providing any service, the entire book. As for Snape and Karkaroff... at this point, does it matter which was the coward and which the traitor? One is dead and the other has successfully changed Voldemort's mind. (Unless Snape was the coward and Voldemort fully intended to accept him back once he was punished. But again, does it matter?)
rambkowalczyk - Jun 18, 2006 4:28 pm (#2543 of 2969)
Edited Jun 18, 2006 5:29 pm
But again, does it matter?) Magic Words
If the answer to the questions are the above speculations, no maybe not.
In my previous post 2540, I wanted to point out that at various times in the book Snape can be thought of as any one of the three, and arguments can be made for either. I think this was deliberate on Jo's part.
But the answer to that question would be very significant if it turns out that Snape isn't the answer to any of those possibilities. If that is the case then Crouch is his most faithful servant, Karkaroff is the traitor, and the coward is someone like Fudge or Ludo Bagman.
Mrs. D. - Jun 21, 2006 9:19 am (#2544 of 2969)
A few of my thoughts on Snape.
1. He really isn't a good guy. Something tells me that had the curse been about the Longbottoms, he would never have turned spy for DD. That says much for his character.
2. There is no way he took a vow with Lily to protect Harry. I cannot reconcile an UV with how he treats Harry during the occlumency lessons. He never really tried to teach Harry. He rather enjoyed torturing him though.
3. Even if he ends up saving Harry, having not killed DD, or whatever, he deep down is still a slithering snake. If he only went against Voldemort for Lily's sake, it was still selfish on his part. I'm not sure he can be fully redeemed.
Even with that said, I STILL find myself liking him. Perhaps it is the movie contamination though. I did see the first movie before ever reading the book and I do love Alan Rickman. I wish I could seperate the two and really read the novels without him in my head. I think I might like Snape much less then.
Choices - Jun 21, 2006 9:43 am (#2545 of 2969)
Mrs. D - "Even with that said, I STILL find myself liking him. Perhaps it is the movie contamination though. I did see the first movie before ever reading the book and I do love Alan Rickman. I wish I could seperate the two and really read the novels without him in my head. I think I might like Snape much less then."
LOL Join the club!
haymoni - Jun 21, 2006 9:57 am (#2546 of 2969)
Gina hates when I say this, but I first read SS right before the movie came out and all I could picture was Gargamel - the guy from the Smurfs - whenever I saw Snape.
I was greatly relieved when I saw Alan Rickman!
Now I see a combination of Gargamel, Alan Rickman and the picture JKR drew of Snape where he has the collar that reminds me of the Mayor of Munchinland.
wynnleaf - Jun 21, 2006 10:01 am (#2547 of 2969)
haymoni,
You said the picture JKR drew of Snape where he has the collar that reminds me of the Mayor of Munchinland.
I don't think I've ever seen that. Where is it?
haymoni - Jun 21, 2006 10:05 am (#2548 of 2969)
I'm pretty sure she showed it during that "Biography" show, but I seem to recall seeing it on the internet as well.
I'll search around for it.
Catherine - Jun 21, 2006 10:06 am (#2549 of 2969)
I'd forgotten about the "Gargamel" image.
That's what I initially pictured, too. Alan Rickman is much more appealing.
haymoni - Jun 21, 2006 10:41 am (#2550 of 2969)
OK wynnleaf - as I am not able to insert ANYTHING in my posts, I emailed you the sketch copy I found on the internet to the email address in your profile.
sere35 - Jun 21, 2006 4:28 pm (#2551 of 2969)
Snape is the truest Slytherin of all. Snape is out for and on the side of only Snape. He will do whatever it takes to survive if that is siding with dumbledore he did it if its supporting Voldermort he will do it.
As to who he loved at one point. At first I thought it was Lily which would go along with him my theory of him being at Lilys house and that is how perunia find out about dementors. Petunia was spying on Lily and snape. But I think that is to obvious so I dont realy know.
Saracene - Jun 22, 2006 3:08 am (#2552 of 2969)
I love Alan Rickman but he is -not- my picture of Snape. He's at least fifteen years too old, too attractive and charismatic and definitely not skinny and greasy enough. Plus Steven Kloves seems intent to soften Snape's nastier edges as much as possible - which IMO does a disservice to the book character.
wynnleaf - Jun 22, 2006 3:59 am (#2553 of 2969)
Edited Jun 22, 2006 5:03 am
Where in canon are we told that a characteristic of Slytherin is being out for yourself? Being ambitious is not the same thing, by the way. Neither is wanting to prove oneself. I'm not saying it's not in canon somewhere, but I can't find it.
It's interesting to me that Draco was first interested in what he could personally get out of his mission -- the glory, that is. But when he was getting more frustrated and frightened of failure, the thing that kept him going wasn't what he could get out of it for himself, but his desire to protect his family. So commitment to family was the overriding motivator, not personal ambition. And Draco is surely a thoroughgoing Slytherin.
Saracene, I agree entirely. When I first heard Rickman was to play Snape I thought it would be good, but I was remembering him in films where he's younger. Snape is only in his mid to later 30's in the books. And I always pictured a thinner person. Rickman is actually thinner than he looks in the films -- the costumes they use for him make him look a bit bulkier. But still, I think of Snape's face a rather lean, and Rickman's definitely isn't. And I agree about the film character being softened. I'm curious to see how they'll do Snape in the OOTP film, especially when he needs to seem the same age as Sirius and Lupin.
haymoni - Jun 22, 2006 4:25 am (#2554 of 2969)
wynnleaf - I think it is Phineas Nigellus who says something when Harry is packing to leave #12 because he thinks he is possessed by Voldy.
Phineas says something like "You should have been in my own house" and something about "saving your own skin". And Harry says he isn't doing that and Phineas says "Ah, then this is a noble..." something.
No books!
Saracene - Jun 22, 2006 4:41 am (#2555 of 2969)
I think Phineas says something along the lines of, "we Slytherins are brave but not stupid. Given the choice, we will always choose to save our own necks."
haymoni - Jun 22, 2006 4:59 am (#2556 of 2969)
That's the one! Thanks!
haymoni - Jun 22, 2006 10:31 am (#2557 of 2969)
Edited Jun 22, 2006 11:31 am
I was re-reading GOF today during lunch and I got to the hospital scene.
When Snape reacts to Harry's mention of Lucius, I was wondering if the 2 of them may have had some discussions about their now "cushy" lifestyles without Voldy around.
Snape could have been reacting to the fact that Lucius was willing to give that all up to go back to Voldy. Certainly his contacts at the Ministry would have been able to protect him if he decided not to go back to Voldy.
Perhaps Snape realizes that he is truly alone.
Greyback Hunter - Jun 22, 2006 4:41 pm (#2558 of 2969)
I don't know if this has been mentioned before in this thread, I haven't had time to read all 2557 posts. Anyway I thought I'd toss this out and see what happens. Since Haymoni mentioned GOF in the last post I thought this might be relevant since it concerns a theory I've developed from something that occurs in the GOF movie. I've looked through several other threads on this board and I haven't seen anyone else mention this so I thought I'd bring it up here.
During the scene where Harry encounters Snape and Karkaroff discussing the dark mark in Snape's store room I believe a clue is given as to how Harry will ultimately find the remaining horcruxes. Snape hauls Harry into the store room and accuses him of stealing the ingredients for polyjuice potion. It's during this scene that he introduces Veritaserum and threatens Harry with it. This scene appears in both the book and the movie but there is a slight difference that occurs in the movie. In the book Snape tells Harry about the potion and says, '...a Truth Potion so powerful that three drops would have you spilling your innermost secrets for this entire class to hear..'(GOF 27). He utters the same line in the movie except there is just a slight change. Instead of using Harry as an example Snape says that '..three drops of this would have the Dark Lord himself spilling his darkest secrets...'.
I think that pretty much says it all. In 'Spinner's End' Narcissa speaks of how Voldemort now trusts Snape. We know that Snape is an extremely accomplished Occlumens and it's pretty certain that Voldy can't read his thoughts. Therefore who better to devise a plan in which Voldemort could successfully be given Veritaserum in some way, and then spill his 'darkest secrets' (the horcruxes and their locations) to none other than Severus Snape.
This is how I figure Harry will learn about the remaining hocruxes and their whereabouts though I'm not sure Snape will be the one who tells him. With all the loose ends that need to be tied up in this last book I really believe that this would be a quick, clever and effective way for JKR to move this issue of the horcruxes along.
Well?
Magic Words - Jun 22, 2006 4:47 pm (#2559 of 2969)
I wondered about that line, actually, because JKR answered a question about Veritaserum on her website and said there are ways to counter it. It worked on Barty Crouch Jr. because he was weakened at the time, but someone stronger could have used Occlumency against it, if I remember correctly.
That being said, it's not impossible for Snape to find a way to give it to Voldemort without him being on his guard enough to counter it. I guess I always figured Snape could get information if he wanted it, and didn't give much thought to whether this would be through shrewd questioning, spying, or truth potions.
Soul Search - Jun 22, 2006 4:54 pm (#2560 of 2969)
Greyback Hunter, Interesting. Voldemort is certainly the one person that knows where all the horcruxes are.
One problem is that Voldemort can't know that anyone is hunting his horcruxes. Otherwise, he could rescue them first or make more.
So, can Veritaserum be used without the recipient being aware of it?
Another is, it is unclear if Snape knows about Dumbledore's interest in Voldemorts history and the horcruxes. It could be risky, Snape being with Voldemort, also a good legitemens.
Yet, what else would be so important to sacrifice Dumbledore so Voldemort would trust Snape more?
Choices - Jun 22, 2006 5:04 pm (#2561 of 2969)
If Snape dared use Veritaserum on Voldemort and Voldemort was aware of it, it would surely jeopardize more than just Snape's career as a spy....I think he would be toast!!
Soul Search - Jun 22, 2006 5:24 pm (#2562 of 2969)
How about Voldemort trusts Snape so much that he tasks him to check on his horcruxes.
Magic Words - Jun 22, 2006 5:26 pm (#2563 of 2969)
Snape knowing about the Horcruxes would be a calculated risk that, I think, would be well worth it. He's in the best position to find out where they are, if he knows what he's looking for. Yes, if Voldemort ever reads his mind he'd know they were being hunted, but there's so much depending on Snape's Occlumency ability, it almost doesn't matter. Certainly if Voldemort learned that he'd helped DD with the ring, even if Snape didn't know what it was, Voldemort would realize that DD had found and destroyed one Horcrux (the second of six).
Soul Search - Jun 22, 2006 5:38 pm (#2564 of 2969)
Good thoughts, Magic Words. I also thought it unlikely that Dumbledore could have kept his fifteen-odd years of Voldemort/horcrux research from Snape. Snape could have even been useful, knowing Voldemort and DEs when he was a DE.
What bothers me, though, is Dumbledore never hinting to Harry that Snape could help. Maybe he would have later, or will somehow, but Harry knowing about Snape would be important to the horcrux hunt. Dumbledore did impress Harry with Snape's dark arts knowledge and ability to heal dark spell effects. The sectrumsempra scene also reinforced this.
Of course, if he had, then we wouldn't have this delicious Snape good/bad mystery.
Die Zimtzicke - Jun 22, 2006 5:44 pm (#2565 of 2969)
If Snape is completely evil, which I do not believe, but I know some folks do, why did he merely give Harry detentions for almost killing Draco? It was obviously a Dark Spell that Harry used. Snape recognized it at once. Yet Harry got off with a very mild punishment for almost killing someone. Even McGonagall is surprised he didn't get worse.
I can't stand it when Harry uses Dark Spells or unforgivables. I think he has to rise above all that to win. And I don't know why, if Snape is pure evil, he didn't take advanatge of that situation.
Jewel - Jun 22, 2006 6:32 pm (#2566 of 2969)
Soul Search.....What bothers me, though, is Dumbledore never hinting to Harry that Snape could help.
Maybe DD didn't tell Harry that Snape could help with the horcruxes, but he did remind him of Snape's status with the Order after the death of Sirius.
Harry has been told many times by Dumbledore that he trusts Snape, it is Harry that chooses not to trust Snape, for his own reasons. That lack of trust is shown when he "forgets" about Snape being in the Order when he goes to the MOM.
Personally, if I don't trust someone, I wouldn't immediately think of going to them for help in a time of panic. Of course after the dangers are over, most think to themselves, "If I had only..." I think that is what Harry is thinking to himself, no matter how much he loathes Snape, he could have possibly saved Sirius.
Mediwitch - Jun 22, 2006 7:39 pm (#2567 of 2969)
Edited Jun 22, 2006 8:39 pm
Jewel - I agree with your point about Harry not trusting Snape. I suspect that may be why Dumbledore did not discuss Snape's level of knowledge regarding Voldemort's horcruxes with Harry, if indeed Snape actually does know about them. Harry would need to learn to trust Snape before he could turn to Snape for help.
wynnleaf - Jun 22, 2006 8:02 pm (#2568 of 2969)
Edited Jun 22, 2006 9:39 pm
If DD told Snape about the horcruxes, yet Snape didn't tell LV that DD was after the horcruxes, then that's just about certain proof of Snape's loyalties. Because of that, there is no way that JKR can let the reader know if DD told Snape about the horcruxes. We can't be told.
Further, within the confines of the plot, Harry can't be told either. If DD and Snape planned for Snape to AK DD, with Harry as the prime witness, DD cannot give Harry proof that Snape is in fact loyal to DD. Otherwise, Harry, who is not the best with guarding his thoughts, will not make a good witness for Snape murdering DD.
DD can't tell Harry that Snape knows about horcruxes, and JKR can't tell the readers.
Pamzter - Jun 22, 2006 8:11 pm (#2569 of 2969)
With regards to Snape giving Veritaserum to LV, or anyone for that matter . . . he does have a new little roommate whom he has serve drinks to guests. Wonder how well the serum mixes with the finest elf wine.
haymoni - Jun 23, 2006 4:14 am (#2570 of 2969)
I'm guessing Voldy is as paranoid as Moody.
We've never actually seen or heard of him eating - other than the "Nagini Serum".
I wonder if he's found a way around that??
Solitaire - Jun 23, 2006 8:52 am (#2571 of 2969)
Edited Jun 23, 2006 9:54 am
If Snape knew what all the Horcruxes were and where they are located--and Dumbledore would certainly have known this if Snape is on the side of the Order--don't you think Dumbledore would have destroyed all of the Horcruxes by now? At the very least, he would have told Harry which things were Horcruxes and/or where to find them. Either Snape doesn't know, or he isn't telling. JM2K, of course ...
Solitaire
Magic Words - Jun 23, 2006 11:02 am (#2572 of 2969)
Edited Jun 23, 2006 12:03 pm
Dumbledore didn't suspect multiple Horcruxes until year two, correct? If we assume that Snape can learn of them because of his association with Voldemort, he's had about two years so far to work on getting the information (end of GoF to end of HBP), counting the time he's at Hogwarts and not in much contact with Voldemort or his DE's. So basically he's had two summers. In that time, four Horcruxes and two of their locations have been identified. Now, much of this work was Dumbledore's, but I don't see why Snape couldn't have been helping where he could.
haymoni - Jun 23, 2006 11:15 am (#2573 of 2969)
In the graveyard scene, after Voldy smells "guilt" on everybody, he says:
"And then I ask myself, but how could they have believed I would not rise again? They, who knew the steps I took, long ago, to guard myself against mortal death? They, who had seen proofs of the immensity of my power in the times when I was mightier than any wizard living?"
So what steps did the DEs know about? Did they actually know about the Horcruxes? Horcrux? Something else? Maybe it was just the "association with the worst of our kind".
Die Zimtzicke - Jun 23, 2006 4:21 pm (#2574 of 2969)
Harry forgot a lot of things he should have remembered...not just that Snape was in the Order. He also forgot about the mirror, for example.
He also forgot that he has to control his emotions, which Snape helpfully reminded him to do, even at a critical moment. Harry IS going to have to be more focused to win. Snape gave him good advice at the end, besides keeping the other Death Eaters from taking or seriously hurting Harry.
The Artful Dodger - Jun 24, 2006 1:40 am (#2575 of 2969)
Edited Jun 24, 2006 2:41 am
JKR says she doesn't think Harry will ever learn Occlumency, so I don't expect it to happen, give or take Snape's "advice" at the end of HBP. Besides, why should Harry learn to shut down his greatest strength?
wynnleaf - Jun 24, 2006 5:47 am (#2576 of 2969)
The Artful Dodger,
I assume you mean Snape's advice for Harry to keep his mouth shut and his mind closed.
You have a good point. However, Snape's advice is still very useful. If Harry can't quit practically mentally telegraphing what his next curse is going to be to his opponent, then he needs to somehow adjust for that factor. Harry will probably get better at nonverbal spells, but Snape is right about the problem of all Harry's intentions and emotions being right there on the surface, and that being a weakness. Sometimes we can't overcome certain weakness, but if that's the case, those weaknesses still have to be accounted for.
There don't seem to be a lot of wizards who could use this weakness of Harry's against him. Snape can apparently "read" what Harry's next hex or jinx is going to be. Presumably LV would be able to do the same. But I can't think of any of the DE's who have done this with Harry -- maybe Bella? Not sure.
Tom Marvolo Riddleton - Jun 28, 2006 6:19 pm (#2577 of 2969)
So what steps did the DEs know about? Did they actually know about the Horcruxes? Horcrux? Something else? Maybe it was just the "association with the worst of our kind". - haymoni
That part in GoF always troubled me. I didn't think it made much sense for R.A.B. to talk of discovering Voldemort's secret about the Horcrux in the cave unless it really was a secret, I didn't quite understand how many Horcruxes R.A.B. was supposed to have known about, and I couldn't figure out how R.A.B. could have not only discovered that Voldemort had produced a Horcrux but, most puzzling, have figured out where to find it. It seems to me that if Voldemort could have let all of this slip to a DE he probably didn't trust to well (I was under the impression that Regulus was young and wouldn't have had time to gain the Dark Lord's trust to a high degree) that it might not be unreasonable to assume that other DEs could have known of the Horcruxes, and thus Snape would be privy to knowledge, if indeed he is the Dark Lord's Golden Boy. Personally, I have the same spiteful admiration for Voldemort that Harry had when looking in the Pensieve (admiration for Voldemort's complete lack of fear at the Gaunts' house, well-said questioning of Slughorn about Horcruxes), but letting anybody but Dumbledore, who is quite intelligent, discover his secret soul fragments was a bit of a letdown. So, as for my own opinion, I think there's a back story that needs to be told about Regulus Black that will restore my confidence in the Dark Lord's abilities, and thus I don't really think Snape will know of the Horcruxes, because it's too much of a weakness on Voldemort's part.
Which, annoyingly enough, still doesn't answer the question of what the steps that were taken to guard Voldemort against mortal death. Perhaps, in the seventh book, we will learn of a Cruxhor, which is a piece of somebody else's soul that can be used towards immortality, assuming you have the dementor to steal the soul in the first place.
Ann - Jun 29, 2006 4:10 am (#2578 of 2969)
I think, from what Dumbledore says in HBP, that Rowling wanted that statement of Voldemort's to be a little joke he was making to himself. In fact, none of his followers (he believes) know about his Horcruxes, although they may know that he has researched methods for gaining immortality (unicorn blood, Nagini's milk, the Philosopher's Stone). So they know that he's looking for immortality, and has taken certain steps toward it (perhaps developing the blood/milk potion), but I agree with you that no one has been told about the Horcruxes. (Dumbledore says, for example, that Lucius didn't really know what the Diary was, and if Voldemort were going to tell anyone, he'd presumably tell Lucius.)
Regulus knew about the one Horcrux in the cave, probably because he ran accross the information by accident. He doesn't know about the others, because he thinks that destroying the locket Horcrux will make Voldemort vulnerable to death. I also think Snape knows about the Horcruxes, but from Dumbledore, not from Voldemort. After all, he helped keep Dumbledore alive after the ring Horcrux almost killed him.
Solitaire - Jun 29, 2006 9:12 am (#2579 of 2969)
You know, Ann, I was thinking about Snape's comment to Bella that Dumbledore had sustained a serious injury since the DoM debacle. That seems like information that would not normally be broadcast to the enemy.
Solitaire
haymoni - Jun 29, 2006 9:15 am (#2580 of 2969)
Does he say "since" the MOM battle or "from" the MOM battle?
Or does he say Dumbledore suffered an injury from his last encounter with the Dark Lord? Which means they had another encounter after the MOM battle?
I thought his hand was injured getting the Horcrux, but we never heard "the thrilling tale", so I guess we don't know.
At work.
No books.
wynnleaf - Jun 29, 2006 11:43 am (#2581 of 2969)
Edited Jun 29, 2006 12:44 pm
Snape does mention an injury that weakened DD since the MOM battle. In fact, if you look at timeline clues very carefully, the injury (with the ring horcrux) had probably only occurred with the past few days. Within the span of less than 1 week, DD gets injured by the horcrux, Snape saves his life, Snape has the discussion at Spinners End and makes the Vow, and DD sends a letter to Slughorn about teaching potions (who he may have already been in contact with - we don't know).
Anyway, if Snape is ESE (ever so evil, I think -- many on other sites are using this abbreviation), then it could be a disloyal action to share about DD's weakness with the Enemy. On the other hand, given that DD's hand was a pretty obvious problem, some aspects of his injury would become widely known rather quickly. So this might not really be especially "restricted" information.
However, many who think Snape is DDM (DD's Man), theorize that DD wanted the DE's and LV to think that he was getting weaker and the information Snape gave to Bella was leaked to her as part of a plan to make LV trust in DD's presumed weakness.
rambkowalczyk - Jun 29, 2006 12:29 pm (#2582 of 2969)
When I first read Spinners End, it seemed to imply that Dumbledore got the injury at the ministry of magic when dueling with Voldemort. This clearly isn't true as Harry didn't see any injury when he was talking to Dumbleddore in his office right after the battle. So Snape telling Bella that Dumbledore was injured then is a bit of misdirection isn't it?
journeymom - Jun 29, 2006 1:09 pm (#2583 of 2969)
I don't have my book now, but I remember the implication was that Dd got the injury after the battle at the MoM, and obviously sometime before we next see him. I never got the impression that he got the injury at the MoM.
TheSaint - Jun 29, 2006 2:39 pm (#2584 of 2969)
'...Dumbledore is growing old. The duel with the Dark Lord last month shook him. He has since sustained a serious injury because his reactions are slower than they once were.'
Injury was after the MOM. But that sure does seem like a lot of information for Snape to have on a casual basis.
Fawkes Egg - Jun 29, 2006 2:49 pm (#2585 of 2969)
Edited Jun 29, 2006 3:49 pm
Harry asks him what happened to his hand on page 63 of the UK edition and Dumbledore replies that "It is a thrilling tale, I wish to do it justice", so there's no implication that it happened at the MoM. Dumbledore also explains how he got the injury later on pages 470-471, raising his hand and explaining how Snape helped him recover when he returned to Hogwarts "desperately injured" after destroying the ring. Also there is Slughorn's reference on page 68: "Reactions not what they were, I see." Plenty of people saw Dumbledore with two healthy hands right after the MoM battle, so it wouldn't be surmised generally that he got the injury there. Snape may be misdirecting Bella and Narcissa at Spinner's End, but he does so with his usual mix of truths, half truths, lies and ambiguous statements.
wynnleaf - Jun 29, 2006 3:16 pm (#2586 of 2969)
Sorry, I don't have time to look it up, but DD also told Harry at another time that he injured his hand a few days before he went to get Harry. I tend to assume that he meant no more than a week at most. Snape mentions the injury (sounds like the same injury) at Spinners End. Spinners End appears to take place the same night (same fog anyway) as Fudge's visit with the PM. When Harry gets his letter from DD, it had been owled about 3 days before. There's more -- but in general, you can gradually work out the timeline. If anyone's truly interested I could look it all up and post it again, or try to search for where it's originally posted.
Anyway, when DD goes to Privet Dr. -- no more than a week since Spinners End and only a few days more since his injury -- he uses his injured hand when he draws and uses his wand with such speed that Harry can hardly see it happen. In other words, at Privet Dr. we see that the injury to his hand had apparently not weakened his reactions or abilities at all. It looks like Snape was doing a lot of misdirection at Spinners End.
Ann - Jun 29, 2006 6:33 pm (#2587 of 2969)
Edited Jun 29, 2006 7:34 pm
This doesn't really belong on the Snape thread, except that Snape is clearly spreading the information that Dumbledore has been injured (which the Death Nibblers will know anyway, as soon as school starts, and dutifully write their parents.) In fact, all through HBP we are given contadictory information abou Dumbledore's health. Harry notes that he swims like a young man in "The Cave." Something is clearly going on here, and if one assumes that Snape is indeed on the right side, one can conclude that the point of it all is to exaggerate Dumbledore's weakness. The $64,000 question, of course, is why?
TheSaint - Jun 29, 2006 8:01 pm (#2588 of 2969)
It does appear as if he is trying to make him out to be an easy mark, which suggests a plot to me.
Solitaire - Jun 29, 2006 8:04 pm (#2589 of 2969)
When Dumbledore and Harry prepare to apparate to Budleigh Babberton, he says the following to Harry: "... you will need to hold onto my arm very tightly. My left, if you don't mind--as you have noticed, my wand arm is a little fragile at the moment."
Quick or not, it seems some significant damage was done to that wand arm--significant enough that Dumbledore does not want to put any undue pressure on it.
Solitaire
Tom Marvolo Riddleton - Jun 29, 2006 9:18 pm (#2590 of 2969)
I can just picture DD at the Gaunts' house performing complicated wand movements and murmuring over the ring which he can touch but can't pick up. "I can only deduce that I must consent to wear the ring before I can obtain it..."
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wynnleaf - Jun 29, 2006 9:26 pm (#2591 of 2969)
Quick or not, it seems some significant damage was done to that wand arm--significant enough that Dumbledore does not want to put any undue pressure on it.
Or it could be that a little misdirection was being applied to Harry. Harry doesn't seem to pay much attention to the contradiction of DD's strong swimming, immediately after him talking about his arm being frail. But of course, that's most likely part of the big Point of the evening -- misdirect Harry, LV, Draco, and anyone else necessary.
As to application for this thread, it was mentioned earlier that Snape's discussing DD's injury at Spinners End was questionable. Discussion of the misdirection of DD's "weakened" state supports the idea that Snape was leaking info to Bella to simply give the impression of weakness. Without other evidence that DD's weakened state was not nearly so weak as he made it out to be, Snape's comments at Spinners End do become extremely suspicious of disloyalty.
TheSaint - Jun 29, 2006 9:42 pm (#2592 of 2969)
Doesn't Slughorn say something about DD not being as quick as he used to be?
wynnleaf - Jun 29, 2006 11:24 pm (#2593 of 2969)
TheSaint, that would be very interesting. If you can find where he does, please post where you found it.
Anna L. Black - Jun 30, 2006 12:10 am (#2594 of 2969)
Edited Jun 30, 2006 1:11 am
Actually, Fawkes Egg quoted it in post #2585:
Also there is Slughorn's reference on page 68: "Reactions not what they were, I see."
But I think this could be a result of his getting older, not neccesarily his injured arm.
Dobby Socks - Jun 30, 2006 12:36 am (#2595 of 2969)
Edited Jun 30, 2006 1:59 am
The Saint, Yep, he does. As Fawkes Egg pointed out, during the visit to Slughorn’s, um, current living space, Slughorn sees DD’s injured hand and says, “Reactions not what they were, I see.” To which DD responds, “You’re quite right. […] I am undoubtedly slower than I was” (p. 67, US).
This is, of course, an assumption on Slughorn’s part which DD encourages, as he does such reactions to his hand throughout HBP. However, it also comes in the context of Slughorn trying to refuse DD’s offer of the teaching position on the pretext of being too old, and slowed due to rheumatism (even though he managed to set the scene for his ::cough:: faked death in two minutes.)
If there’s another instance, though, please post it when you find it. I imagine there could be.
Well, I’m too slow with the refresh button. Alas… Earwax.
EDIT: Although this has nothing to do with Snape directly, any evidence contributing to (or refuting) a number of DD’s death plot theories has a great bearing on the Good/Evil Snape Debate.
rambkowalczyk - Jun 30, 2006 9:51 am (#2596 of 2969)
When I first read Spinners End, it seemed to imply that Dumbledore got the injury at the ministry of magic when dueling with Voldemort. Rambkowalczyk post 2582
...Dumbledore is growing old. The duel with the Dark Lord last month shook him. He has since sustained a serious injury because his reactions are slower than they once were.' quote found by the saint to refute my impression
just a small clarification. I was describing a first impression I got. Obviously I skipped over the word "since" and assumed that Snape was lying to Bella to misdirect her. That was my entire point. Snape is misdirecting Bella.
Mattew Bates - Jun 30, 2006 10:15 am (#2597 of 2969)
wynnleaf, I like those abbreviations. Is there a similar one to suggest that Snape's true loyalty is to himself alone? Of course, perhaps that is splitting hairs between "ESE Loyal Death Eater" and "ESE Out For Himself," but I think it is a valid distinction if our hypothesizing extends to his motivations.
Magic Words - Jun 30, 2006 12:19 pm (#2598 of 2969)
IMO all the mentions of Dumbledore being slower and weaker than he once was refer to the mistake that injured his hand, not the effect of the injury. If his reactions were as fast as they had always been, I don't believe he would have sustained lasting damage as he clearly did. The times when he does use his hand, for wandwork or swimming, could easily be chalked up to adrenaline.
TheSaint - Jun 30, 2006 1:49 pm (#2599 of 2969)
The times when he does use his hand, for wandwork or swimming, could easily be chalked up to adrenaline.
This is true..Epinephrine will make a dead heart sing just a while longer. I do think had he been as fast as he used to be he would not have sustained the injury, but i do think they are overplaying his 'disability' a bit.
Dobby Socks - Jun 30, 2006 2:23 pm (#2600 of 2969)
Hi Magic Words. I’ve been sitting here for a seemingly immeasurable amount of time trying to figure out whether Snape being out for himself can be absolutely extricated from either Good Snape or Evil Snape, and if so, in what situation (trying to formulate a list of all possible situations). Also, can the end justify the motivation? And I’m working up a massive headache. If I don’t make any sense, chalk it up to that.
Re: your post… I can see how an adrenaline surge could overcome an injury (not one that is very serious, but perhaps mildly incapacitating -- unless this is different in the Wizarding World.)
I do think, given the probable nastiness of the ring horcrux, that it very well could have injured him in the manner it did no matter how fast his reactions were.
I wonder, if Snape could *really* “stopper death,” or at least do so for a bit, could he make a hand temporarily regain its former function?
It does seem like they are broadcasting his injury and his “slowed reactions” over a loudspeaker at every convenient chance.
Tom Marvolo Riddleton - Jun 30, 2006 3:04 pm (#2601 of 2969)
Personally, I don't believe that DD's getting older was really taking much of an effect on him; if anything, perhaps the pressure he has had on him lately might be stressing him out. I wouldn't be surprised if DD knew that he would have his hand injured when he obtained the ring from the Gaunt house, and was simply agreeing with Slughorn when he suggested "Reactions not what they were, I see" so as not to have to go into detail about how he had sustained his injury, thus misdirecting anybody from figuring out anything that had to do with Voldemort's Horcrux. Perhaps the reason that we have yet to really learn of the thrilling tale of DD's having obtained the ring can be attributed to some from of DD's willingness to sacrifice himself? The reason I bring this up on this thread is that, if I am lucky enough to be on the right track with my guess work, perhaps it can shed some light on whether or not Snape is or is not ESE? If DD was willing to give up his hand, then it might be possible that he was willing to give up the rest of his body also, and thus it could tie into some of the theories floating around out there that suggest that DD had sacrificed himself on the lightning-struck tower. This might justify DD's complete lack of fear in the tower, and perhaps when DD was begging Snape it was not for help to survive but rather to kill him; Snape was angry because DD had asked him to do such a thing, and thus the look on his face in the tower. This might have something to do with the scene at Spinner's End; IMO, the sacrificial plan would have had to come after this if it existed at all, but Snape would perhaps have been suggesting that DD was getting weaker simply to throw off Bella of the missions that DD was going on. While I still think it's pretty up in the air whether or not Snape knew anything about the Horcruxes, he must have had some idea what DD was doing to have sustained the injury, as it was him that had to save the Headmaster; he was the one that would have had to know enough of the mission to understand the magic that he must use to save DD; either way, I like to think Snape is pretty intelligent and can figure some stuff out for himself. And I don't personally think that DD was lying when he said he had an ironclad reason to trust Snape, and while I can only guess what that reason is for now, I imagine that DD would trust Snape enough to let him, above all others but Harry, know some information about his missions when he leaves the school. And I know this is all a little iffy, the night of the lightning-struck tower scene, but it is my belief that DD knew what the potion in the cave was, knew that he would be incredibly weakened by it, but was perfectly OK with that because he had come up with some sacrificial plot involving Snape, involving the Unbreakable Vow that Snape might not have truly known about (meaning what Draco's real mission was) but had already made and thus had no choice but to do or die (literally). And if there was no sacrificial plot that was planned out with precision for that night (it would make sense for DD to have had some more Order members present if he knew Draco was going to do something, as he may be OK with sacrificing himself but he would certainly be unhappy about leaving his students unprotected), I at least think that DD was not to worried about sacrificing himself at some time; after all, I believe it's "to the organized mind, death is but the next great step." And I think DD has learned by now that he can't protect Harry forever, as suggested by his willingness to finally tell Harry about the prophecy and to let Harry come along with him to the cave. I know I copied a bunch of people's ideas here, but that was not my intention; I'm just trying to find a way to piece all of this together from beginning to end of HBP in a way that might suggest that Snape is on the side of good and not evil. And finally, after all of that, perhaps Snape really was giving Harry advice at the end of HBP when he told Harry to close his mind; Voldemort, being as naive as he is towards the power of love, would try and attack Harry based on what Harry loves in life, as the Dark Lord would see this as Harry's greatest weakness. Snape, while perhaps not really liking Harry in any way, was still loyal to DD even after he had killed him and was trying to get Harry to understand the one advantage he has over Voldemort, the same thing DD tried to get Harry to understand repeatedly, and was attempting to tell Harry to not let Voldemort use this against him. I don't know if this all works, but I put a lot of effort into stringing all of the "Snape is good" theories together and making the Spinner's End scene make sense as towards Snape's attitude towards DD's possible weakness due to age.
wynnleaf - Jun 30, 2006 3:28 pm (#2602 of 2969)
IMO all the mentions of Dumbledore being slower and weaker than he once was refer to the mistake that injured his hand, not the effect of the injury. If his reactions were as fast as they had always been, I don't believe he would have sustained lasting damage as he clearly did. The times when he does use his hand, for wandwork or swimming, could easily be chalked up to adrenaline.
Not the first time we see him use his injured hand. It's at the Dursley's and DD had his wand out and in use so fast Harry could hardly see it. No adrenaline can explain that.
On the ESE (ever so evil) and DDM (Dumbledore's Man), I don't think there's one for Snape being out for himself. Well, anyway, if there is such an abbreviation, I haven't seen it. And ESE and DDM can be used for many characters.
Choices - Jun 30, 2006 4:22 pm (#2603 of 2969)
Dobby Socks - "I do think, given the probable nastiness of the ring horcrux, that it very well could have injured him in the manner it did no matter how fast his reactions were."
I agree with you, Dobby. I think the protections on the ring Horcrux could not be delt with in any other way but to sacrifice his hand. Speed, reaction time, old age...had nothing to do with it. Also, I think that in times of war, it is never a bad thing to have your enemy THINK you are weaker than you really are.
Ken Brennan - Jun 30, 2006 5:50 pm (#2604 of 2969)
I think that despite the overwhelming evidence that Snape is evil...he may be good still. He may have killed dumbledore knowing the symptoms of the potion and knowing that he was done for anyway. Also, he saw that Dumbledore was wandless, thus any attempt to get him his wand would make the death eaters suspicious. He also may have killed him to help in his case that he is on volds side to get in deeper and eventually help Harry. Also, Snape had to kill Dumbledore one way or the other if Draco didnt due to the Vow correct?. Evidence supporting this theory: Snape stupefied the proffessor in the dungeon..not kill him. Snape didnt kill harry. Snape could have killed Order members unnoticed...didn't. Evidence against: The descriptioin of the look on Snape's face when he killed DD. Dumbledore himself said that great wizards though however rare make mistakes...and when they do, they are huge, and snape could have been one of them. Just like Voldemort. Both were Half blood...along with harry, Is Harry a mistake...hmm. Also, snape's potions book was evil enough. (6/27/06) More evidence for the theory: When Hagrid and Harry put out the shed(on fire), Hagrid hit the nail on the head when he explained, "What musta happened was, DD musta told Snape to go with them Death Eaters,". That is probably exactly what He told him to do. This helps justify the look on Snape's face when he killed DD. He knew he'd be a marked man from then on. (4/26/06) Just throwin this out there. I think DD may be alive. It may have been an intricate plan to fake a death to help Harry outside of the school and make Vold. Think he was gone. He knew the school was capable of running itself and had to pursue more important things. This coupled with Bellatrix's quote"an unforgivable curse won't work unless you mean it." This could be how dumb. survived the killing curse. Snape being an excellant legilimens, read dd's mind on the tower and saw what dumblesore had in mind. He would not have wanted to take the risk of actually kiling dd which explains the look on his face when he did it. DD saw the look and said" severus...please." And severus did it. The fact that Harry describes DD falling "Slowly", may hint at a levitating charm. Besides, all the other death eaters were right there(I hope Rowling didn't confirm his death)(if so...whoops) -Later when Harry met with Snape in the woods, snape didnt hurt harry, nor did he let another death eater kill him. Though his excuse was that the dark lord wanted him for himself, he may have been protecting Harry. ( I know I have restated myslef a few times)
Magic Words - Jun 30, 2006 6:22 pm (#2605 of 2969)
Edited Jun 30, 2006 7:24 pm
One passage I see as a major piece of evidence that wasn't brought up in either summary just now was Snape's reaction to Harry calling him a coward or, more specifically, the way JKR wrote his reaction. Harry calls Snape a coward twice. The first time, "Stand and fight, you coward," Snape responds with a jab at the Marauders ("your father never attacked me unless it was four on one, what does that make him?") A couple pages later, Harry says "Kill me like you killed him, you coward," and Snape completely loses it. It can't have been the word "coward" he was really reacting to, because he's already been called a coward and didn't lose his cool. So it must have been "kill me like you killed him" that upset him. Also, he's described as looking like he's in pain. Not anger, pain. He's actually compared to Fang, who's trapped in a burning building at the time. This would be an odd thing for Harry to notice, since you generally don't stop to sympathize with people you're angry enough with to kill, so it must be very important for JKR to point it out.
Ken Brennan - Jun 30, 2006 7:53 pm (#2606 of 2969)
Maybe Snape felt like telling Harry that DD wanted snape to kill him, and the word coward would certainly be an offense after doing something that must've taken all the courage in the world.
Tom Marvolo Riddleton - Jun 30, 2006 8:36 pm (#2607 of 2969)
Quite astute, Magic Words. I'm curious as to why you offer no explanation as towards what you feel this might suggest? Perhaps you thought it was self-explanatory. Either way, I'll offer my own opinion; if nothing else, you can tell me if I've got it right. When Harry speaks to Snape of the deed he did it sickens him. His terrible aggravation was directed not at being called a coward but rather at having been reminded of the deed he had done, as you pointed out it was "as though he was in as much pain as the yelping, howling dog stuck in the burning house behind them." (pg 604, HBP US HDBK) I'm assuming (and hoping) that this means that Snape was absolutely devastated at what he had done, and thus that Snape had not wanted to kill DD at all, and finally that that must mean he was on the side of good, and not ESE. And perhaps we can guess that he murdered DD under DD's orders, based on DD's having pleaded with Snape for something in the lightning-struck tower, and thus that DD sacrificed himself. Does that sound about right?
Solitaire - Jun 30, 2006 9:05 pm (#2608 of 2969)
Ken and Tom, a request ... You both have good things to say, but those really L-O-N-G posts are hard to read for someone with bad eyes ... like me. It would help if you could put a couple of paragraph breaks (double spaces) into those really long posts. Thank you.
Solitaire
Laura W - Jun 30, 2006 11:52 pm (#2609 of 2969)
Edited Jul 1, 2006 12:57 am
Ken Brennan wrote: "Maybe Snape felt like telling Harry that DD wanted snape to kill him, and the word coward would certainly be an offense after doing something that must've taken all the courage in the world."
Not to mention the courage Snape has had to exhibit by pretending to spy for Voldemort while actually spying for DD all these years - assuming, for the time being, that that is what has been going on.
He would require physical courage to face every day what would undoubtedly happen to him if V or any of the other DEs (read, Bellatrix) ever found out the truth, and emotional courage to live every day with being mistrusted - hated, even - by both sides. This being the case, it is understandable how he would react to being called a coward.
Laura
Magic Words - Jul 1, 2006 5:56 am (#2610 of 2969)
Sorry, Tom. I did think it was self-explanatory, because I've expressed my views about Snape before (often), but most of those posts were a while ago and it didn't occur to me that not everyone would have seen them. Yes, you've pretty well explained what I was implying.
wynnleaf - Jul 1, 2006 6:35 am (#2611 of 2969)
Edited Jul 1, 2006 7:36 am
I was reading some threads on another site and had a thought -- wondering who had saved lives the most lives during the actual events of the HP series (not including before Harry came to Hogwarts). I think it's Snape, depending on what you're willing to count or not as saving or helping to save lives.
Definite lives threatened and Snape saved (or helped save) life:
1. Harry on broom in SS/PS 2. Harry about to be attacked by Moody/Crouch in GOF -- Snape joins with DD and McGonagall 3. OOTP, Snape sends Order to MOM which saves lives of all students there 4. in HBP he saves DD's life 5. in HBP he saves Katie Bell's life 6. in HBP he saves Draco's life (sectemsempra event) 7. in HBP he saves Harry when he stops DE from attacking Harry. Granted you could probably come up with reasons for why an Evil Snape would do these things. Still, it's a lot of lives saved to have to come up with Evil reasons for all of them.
Lives that were in debatable peril
1. Snape moves 4 people to safety from werewolf in POA 2. Stops Harry from being strangled in OOTP 3. and through the potions book he makes it possible for Harry to save Ron in HBP.
Now Harry has saved these from definite peril:
1. Ginny in COS 2. Sirius in POA 3. Pettigrew in POA 4. sort of helped save Arthur in OOTP by telling about his vision 5. Ron in HBP
Saved lives from debatable peril:
1. in GOF he saved Ron and Fleur's little sister in lake.
DD saved 1. Harry from fall from broom 2. Harry and friends at MOM 3. Harry from Crouch/Moody in GOF 4. may have sent Fawkes to Harry in COS 5. gave Harry the info to fight inferi and helped in saving them from inferi.
There may be some I'm forgetting. Maybe if anyone remembers more you could add to my list.
Of course you can come up with reasons for why an evil Snape would save lives in order to further an Evil Plan, or to keep from being Found Out, or some other reason. However, it will seem like very strange character portrayal if JKR has Snape be Evil while also saving perhaps more lives than anyone else during the series.
Thoughts anyone?
Catherine - Jul 1, 2006 7:27 am (#2612 of 2969)
Edited Jul 1, 2006 8:38 am
2. Stops Harry from being strangled in OOTP --Wynnleaf
I don't recall this. Perhaps you mean Neville instead of Harry?
Mundungus saved Ron from being strangled in OoP.
Grawp's interference saved Harry and Hermione from the Centaurs and Umbridge in the Forbidden Forest.
Dumbledore saved Harry at the end of SS/PS
Harry rescued Cedric from Krum's Crucio in the maze, and kept Cedric from being attacked by the acromantula.
Harry and Ron saved Hermione from the troll in SS/PS.
Lily Potter saved her son with her sacrifice.
Harry saved Dobby from Lucius Malfoy's rage.
Dobby did not allow Lucius Malfoy to attack Harry at the end of CoS.
Harry saved Ginny, Ron, and Hermione (probably) by giving them each a dose of his Felix Felicis
Hagrid helped rescue Katie Bell by getting her to the hospital wing speedily.
Harry and Hermione saved Sirius's soul (which is akin to life, in my opinion) from being sucked out.
Harry and Hermione saved Buckbeak's life.
Soul Search - Jul 1, 2006 7:29 am (#2613 of 2969)
Edited Jul 1, 2006 8:33 am
Good analysis, wynnleaf.
What comes to mind first is that for most of Snape's "saving" events, there is a reason why an "evil" Snape would have done it. That is, Snape would have a good reason to hand for the "saving" if Voldemort (or Bella) called him on it.
I find it interesting that the storyline has specifically included evidence and justifications for both sides of the Snape good/evil question for Snape's "saving" actions.
Snape's reaction to Bella's accusations in Spinner's End even highlights this duality for we readers. (Since Harry wasn't there, the whole chapter was just for we reader's understanding.) It might even be significant that the information in Spinner's End was presented without Harry; we understand Snape's good/evil duality, but Harry only sees the evil side.
As I suggested a while back, I am believing that the storyline for the entire Harry Potter series is Harry/Snape, rather than Harry/Voldemort: we see a lot more of the Harry/Snape relationship than the Harry/Voldemort relationship.
wynnleaf - Jul 1, 2006 8:43 am (#2614 of 2969)
Soul Search,
I agree entirely.
Catherine,
Thanks for mentioning the other life saving events. I'd forgotton who was being strangled in OOTP! Thanks!
I didn't list anyone other than Harry, DD, and Snape because I knew no other character had close to the number of lives saved. If you add on the ones you listed of Harry's, it looks like Snape and Harry saved a similar number of lives (sending the Order to the MOM counted for 5 people saved). Harry may be ahead on number of life-saving events. Snape may be ahead on numbers of people.
The main thing that struck me was how strange this will look if Snape turned out to be Evil. And how would we find out why Snape did all these things? Another round of explanations like he did with Bella? After all, Bella didn't know he's saved anyone's life, so he never had to explain that to her.
Solitaire - Jul 1, 2006 8:55 am (#2615 of 2969)
The main thing that struck me was how strange this will look if Snape turned out to be Evil.
Oddly, I think it would only serve to make him look even more evil ... because it would point out the lengths to which he was willing to go--the duplicitous life he'd lived for so many years--to carry out his evil deeds. JM2K ...
Solitaire
Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 1, 2006 12:14 pm (#2616 of 2969)
Edited Jul 1, 2006 1:23 pm
I find the description of the Hebridean Black Dragon given by J.K. Rowling to be applicable to Severus Snape.
Britain's other native dragon is more aggressive than its Welsh counterpart. It requires a territory of as much as a hundred square miles per dragon. Up to thirty feet in length, the Hebridean Black is rough scales, with brilliant purple eyes, and line of shallow but razor-sharp ridges along its back. Its tail is tipped by an arrow shaped spike and it has bat like wings. The Hebridean Black feeds mostly on deer, though it has been known to carry off large dogs and even cattle. The wizard clan MacFusty, who have dwelled in the Hebrides for centuries have traditionally taken responsibility for the management of their native dragons. (FB page 12)
First, Severus has an aggressive nature and is also quite territorial. Second, Severus Snape has been described as bat-like on several occasions Most not notably he was described as an overgrown bat during the course of PS. Second, Severus was a member of the House of Slythern while in school and later served as it's head. The emblem of Slytherin is a serpent. Third, the fact that the diet of the Hebridean Black consists mainly of deer and can sometimes include large dogs reminds me of the animosity that existed between Severus and James whose animagus form was that of stag (deer) and Sirius whose animagus form was that of large black dog.
Choices - Jul 1, 2006 12:16 pm (#2617 of 2969)
I think Snape reacted so violently to the word "coward" for much the same reason he argued with Dumbledore in the forest. He is really tired of doing what he is doing - he has taken on this spy job that requires him to do things that put him in great personal danger - nobody but Dumbledore seems to know just what all that entails. Snape has just done something so horrendous, so upsetting, something that took tremendous courage to do, and then Harry blithely throws out the "coward" accusation. I can just see Snape thinking, "OK, that's the final straw. This little twirp dares to call me a coward when he knows nothing of the lengths to which I have to go to do what I do. How dare he!!" Understandable explosion!!
Solitaire - Jul 1, 2006 12:34 pm (#2618 of 2969)
Edited Jul 1, 2006 1:35 pm
Snape has just done something so horrendous, so upsetting, something that took tremendous courage to do
Alas, all Harry knows is that Snape killed an unarmed Dumbledore. To him, it was extremly cowardly, not courageous. Harry cannot be blamed for feeling as he does in this instance. He is not privy to any plans involving the killing of Dumbledore. Besides, we still do not know for certain that it was an act of courage ... do we?
Solitaire
wynnleaf - Jul 1, 2006 3:09 pm (#2619 of 2969)
Choices,
I agree with you interpretation of Snape's reaction to the word "coward." Of course, Harry can in no way be expected to know it wasn't anything other than a cowardly act. Even if Harry had not hated Snape already, even if he had trusted him like DD, he would still have seen the AKing of DD as a terribly cowardly act.
Solitaire, I'm not quite sure I get what you mean. At first I thought I agreed, but now I'm not sure. If Snape is truly evil, how can the "apparently" good deeds he did (saving lives) make him somehow more evil? In other words, even though that would show even more underhanded actions, the actions themselves would have had good effects (lives saved). So I can't see how they'd add to his evil.
But what I really meant about it seeming strange for Snape to have done all that and still be evil is more from a character portrayal aspect. Can anyone imagine an Evil Villian gloating at how he'd accomplished lots of nasty plans by saving or helping to save a number of people's lives? It just seems sort of bizarre. Or how about the explanation to another DE -- "oh, I had to save this person's life to accomplish x, this person's life to accomplish y, and this person's life to accomplish z. So don't hold all those lives I saved against me. I can save lots of people's lives and still be loyal to LV." It just sounds sort of silly. I suppose JKR might be able to write that believably, but to me it's hard to imagine. And if Snape turns out to be evil, she'll have to explain his "good" actions, since he never explained anything about the lives saved at Spinners End.
Choices - Jul 1, 2006 4:55 pm (#2620 of 2969)
Edited Jul 1, 2006 5:56 pm
I was speaking of Snape's reaction to Harry calling him a coward. Of course to Harry it seemed a cowardly act - he didn't know any better. I was just trying to say how Snape must have felt, knowing what he/Snape knows about the life he has been living for so long and the things he has had to do as a spy. His life is on the line constantly, so being called a coward had to have hurt and enraged him at the same time.
wynnleaf - Jul 1, 2006 7:19 pm (#2621 of 2969)
I'm sorry, Choices. I knew that's what you meant. But I combined the stuff on what Harry thought into the paragraph where I said I agreed with you, making it appear that I'd misinterpreted your comments. That's where my own bad paragraph construction can really mess me up!
The Artful Dodger - Jul 2, 2006 4:37 am (#2622 of 2969)
Edited Jul 2, 2006 5:44 am
"I can save lots of people's lives and still be loyal to LV." It just sounds sort of silly.
That is true. But on the other hand, "I'm a good guy, but I had to kill Dumbledore." sounds equally sort of silly, doesn't it?
I am not convinced of the had to part, especially. While I could accept (with a little effort) that Dumbledore and Snape planned the killing, I cannot see why this should have been a necessity.
wynnleaf - Jul 2, 2006 4:46 am (#2623 of 2969)
Edited Jul 2, 2006 5:47 am
The Artful Dodger,
Well, actually, it's the number that makes it sound so bizarre to me. For an Evil Villian to explain why he had to save a life once , in order to carry out his nefarious plans, sounds plausible. Ditto for why a good guy might have to explain why he had to kill someone once (uh, that's if DD's really dead, of course). So it really doesn't sound so silly -- if a sufficiently strong explanation were produced -- to say that one of the good guys had to kill another good guy. But suppose Snape had on numerous occasions killed some of the good guys, and then tried to say it was all to benefit the good side's plans. Well, that would just sound ridiculous - unbelievable for the plot. In the same way, it sounds sort of ridiculous for Snape the Evil Villian to have saved lives many times, all to carry forward evil plans.
Solitaire - Jul 2, 2006 6:28 am (#2624 of 2969)
Edited Jul 2, 2006 7:30 am
Wynnleaf, people often do seemingly good things for bad reasons and bad things for good reasons (ends justify the means?) ... I think that is what I mean, but I may need more coffee before I'm sure!
I was thinking of Snape's explanations to Bella back at Spinner's End. Whatever good Snape may have done, if his ultimate goal all along was the destruction of the Order, the murder of Dumbledore, and the death of Harry, then IMO, any good things he may have done along the way would seem meaningless and cruel. They would be nothing but manipulation and lies. That's just how I see it, of course.
Solitaire
Soul Search - Jul 2, 2006 7:06 am (#2625 of 2969)
Does this all mean Snape has "a saving people thing?"
Regarding Snape's reaction to Harry calling him a coward:
Snape reacts strongly, bringing up Harry's father. Sounds to me like Snape really cares what Harry thinks of him. Bit strange that Snape values Harry's opinion of him.
We might extrapolate and suggest that Snape sought a favorable opinion from James, but never could get it.
Dobby Socks - Jul 2, 2006 9:46 am (#2626 of 2969)
Edited Jul 2, 2006 11:00 am
Does this all mean Snape has "a saving people thing?" LOL, Soul Search. I know it’s not a laughing matter, but it just struck me as funny. I think because I’m picturing one of the trio (was it Hermione or maybe Ron?) walking up to Severus and saying in a scolding yet concerned way, “Well, you know Professor Snape, you do kind of have a, uhh… sort of a Saving People Thing.” Wonder what his reaction to that would be?
Still, most instances of Snape saving people fall into one of two categories. He saves Harry repeatedly (and, as in the MoM incident, those who are with Harry at least by default.) And, in the cases of Katie Bell, etc., I think it’s because his extensive knowledge of the Dark Arts and particularly his talent for Potions often puts him in the role of resident Healer when the matter is too complex for Madame Pomfrey to handle.
As for Neville (apart from a good opportunity for JKR to insert some humor into that situation,) I think it’s a natural human reaction to stop someone from being strangled to death. Would “Evil Snape” have done the same thing? Maybe, since he’s in public view. I really have no idea. It seems like a particularly bad idea for anyone to let that happen. I think even Umbridge may have stopped it: if she hadn’t been in such a crazed, fanatical state, she may have noticed the possibility that something truly bad might have happened to Neville. Lying about a Crucio is one thing (easy to get away with.) Having a dead student on her hands would be a political nightmare.
And, despite his harsh treatment of some of his students, I don’t think Snape wants to see any of the kids hurt or dead. He might actually have a “saving people thing,” either because of lingering guilt from his DE days, or from seeing all the horrible things happen when he was a DE (and likely as a spy, depending on what the requirements of that were.) He may be trying to reverse what he’s done and what he’s witnessed. He may also feel a moral obligation to protect the students.
Why he’s particularly prone to saving Harry is still up in the air, IMO. Transferred Life Debt? Keeping the “Chosen One” intact to finish off Voldemort?
"Regarding Snape's reaction to Harry calling him a coward:
Snape reacts strongly, bringing up Harry's father. Sounds to me like Snape really cares what Harry thinks of him. Bit strange that Snape values Harry's opinion of him.
We might extrapolate and suggest that Snape sought a favorable opinion from James, but never could get it."
Soul Search, I think Snape’s reaction to Harry calling him a coward is simply what several people have noted recently. He just did one of the most difficult and painful things he’s ever had to do. From his POV, the furthest thing from a cowardly act.
I do think it’s interesting that you brought up Snape’s valuing Harry’s opinion of him. I’d never really thought about it, but I think he does. I think he dislikes Harry. I think Harry frustrates him constantly. But I really think Snape wants respect from almost everyone no matter who they are. I think it’s a point of pride with him (which makes sense given what JKR has shown us about his childhood and teenaged years.) Does he particularly want respect from Harry? Perhaps he does due to what he went through with Harry’s father. A very interesting question.
Respect from James? My knee jerk reaction was no. I think once the dynamics of their relationship was crystallized, there was no chance for a friendly respect, needless to say. And when they were first at Hogwarts, I can’t see him seeking respect from James in terms of friendship – they appeared to be polar opposites and I can’t see a kid from Slytherin who was introverted, extremely bright, academically inclined, and carrying a Dark Arts background seeking out respect from a popular, wealthy, Dark Arts hating Gryffindor, who seemed to be more concerned with having fun than with gaining knowledge (although we know James was also very bright.) I can see Severus having some envy which he probably denied. However, as they became rivals, I can see him wanting James to respect him in a sort of “I can out hex you from here to Kingdom Come” kind of way. “You may have all of these coveted qualities, but in the end, I’m smarter, stealthier, more powerful” and etc.
Ann - Jul 2, 2006 4:00 pm (#2627 of 2969)
Edited Jul 2, 2006 5:04 pm
Regarding Snape's reaction to Harry calling him a coward, I don't think that "Don't call me coward!" was what he meant to say at first. What JKR wrote was "Don't----call me coward!" Then she spooned a lot of description in between the dashes for camouflage.
Regarding Snape's statements at Spinner's End versus his Saving People Thing. I've always said that you have to watch what Snape actually DOES. He's very skilled at manipulating words (see his poetic speeches at the beginning of Potions and DADA), and that's clearly what he's doing at Skinner's End. But if you look at what options he has and what he actually chooses to do, it's clear (to me) that he's Dumbledore's Man.
Regarding something that I haven't seen discussed (let me know if you have, please--I don't read all the threads): There's a theory (summarized on the Red Hen site under the title Second Guessing) that book 1 parallels 5, book 2 parallels 6, and book 3 will parallel 7. It's a clever theory, and strangely convincing, though it's not entirely clear why JKR would do this. Still, a summary:
1 & 5: Voldemort spends the entire book trying to get a magical object (SS/prophecy) that's hidden underground, at the end of a series of rooms containing barriers. His henchman uses Harry to get the object, but fails to get it away from him, and in the end it is destroyed. Ron and Hermione help, but are unavailable at the climax. Dumbledore saves Harry from Voldemort.
2 & 6: A book, which Harry has for at least part of the year, is really important, and leads characters to do things they might not do otherwise. It's origin is uncertain, and it turns out to have originated with someone that Harry hates, though he thinks as the writer/annotater as a friend initially. Harry's skill as a Parseltongue plays an important role throughout, as do House-Elves. Fawkes sings at the end.
3 & 7: A murderer is on the run throughout most of the book, and Harry thinks he really hates him, but towards the end he discovers that the man's actions have been misunderstood and he's really an ally. Dementors feature prominently, and Remus Lupin is important. Harry finds out a lot about his parents that he hadn't known previously. Ron is badly hurt, and Harry and Hermione fight on. Going back in time is featured.
This is only an outline--there are lots of other parallels--but I find it pretty convincing. A lot of things in the 3-7 parallel are hinted about in the earlier books. But I'm posting it here, since it's particularly interesting in view of the parallel between Sirius and Snape.
Choices - Jul 2, 2006 4:38 pm (#2628 of 2969)
Those parallels are very interesting Ann - thanks for posting them.
rambkowalczyk - Jul 2, 2006 6:41 pm (#2629 of 2969)
Previously there has been mentioned of Snape doing the Machiavelli thing, that is he is in it for himself. There is a reference to a Severus in Roman times who sought to be governor by having two side play against each other and then he defeated the winner. The point is in books 1 through 5 and the first part of 6 it was convenient for Snape to act as though he was on Dumbledore's side because it earns Dumbledore's trust.
For whatever reason whether Dumbledore ordered it or not he killed Dumbledore to insure that the Dark Lord knows whose side he is on. Here's the key point: In order for ESE Snape to defeat Voldemort, he has to help Harry find the Horcruxes and destroy them.
It is only after Harry kills Voldemort does he then try to kill Harry.
This is the jist of a theory that I read on the Mugglenet Editorials.
Ann - Jul 2, 2006 7:21 pm (#2630 of 2969)
But that doesn't make any sense at all rambkowalczyk. If he's evil, he's either out for Voldemort or for himself. If he's for Voldemort, he wouldn't help Harry with the Horcruxes. If he's for himself, why in heaven's name has he spent fifteen years as a much-hated school teacher? There are many more effective ways to build up a following than alienating the generation that will be fighting with our against you. By being Dumbledore's employee all these years (perhaps under duress, but he has remained at Hogwarts) and by being nasty to everyone who isn't a Slytherin, Snape has surrendered any hope of recruiting followers. The DE wannabes will hate him for turning on Voldemort; the others will hate him for favoring the DE wannabes. It's simply not good politics.
I've always thought that the clearest evidence of the side he's really on is that he argues with Dumbledore and doesn't argue with Voldemort (so far as we can see). If Snape were trying to fool Dumbledore, he'd go along with everything, and then undercut it. But he argues....
Quick or not, it seems some significant damage was done to that wand arm--significant enough that Dumbledore does not want to put any undue pressure on it.
Or it could be that a little misdirection was being applied to Harry. Harry doesn't seem to pay much attention to the contradiction of DD's strong swimming, immediately after him talking about his arm being frail. But of course, that's most likely part of the big Point of the evening -- misdirect Harry, LV, Draco, and anyone else necessary.
As to application for this thread, it was mentioned earlier that Snape's discussing DD's injury at Spinners End was questionable. Discussion of the misdirection of DD's "weakened" state supports the idea that Snape was leaking info to Bella to simply give the impression of weakness. Without other evidence that DD's weakened state was not nearly so weak as he made it out to be, Snape's comments at Spinners End do become extremely suspicious of disloyalty.
TheSaint - Jun 29, 2006 9:42 pm (#2592 of 2969)
Doesn't Slughorn say something about DD not being as quick as he used to be?
wynnleaf - Jun 29, 2006 11:24 pm (#2593 of 2969)
TheSaint, that would be very interesting. If you can find where he does, please post where you found it.
Anna L. Black - Jun 30, 2006 12:10 am (#2594 of 2969)
Edited Jun 30, 2006 1:11 am
Actually, Fawkes Egg quoted it in post #2585:
Also there is Slughorn's reference on page 68: "Reactions not what they were, I see."
But I think this could be a result of his getting older, not neccesarily his injured arm.
Dobby Socks - Jun 30, 2006 12:36 am (#2595 of 2969)
Edited Jun 30, 2006 1:59 am
The Saint, Yep, he does. As Fawkes Egg pointed out, during the visit to Slughorn’s, um, current living space, Slughorn sees DD’s injured hand and says, “Reactions not what they were, I see.” To which DD responds, “You’re quite right. […] I am undoubtedly slower than I was” (p. 67, US).
This is, of course, an assumption on Slughorn’s part which DD encourages, as he does such reactions to his hand throughout HBP. However, it also comes in the context of Slughorn trying to refuse DD’s offer of the teaching position on the pretext of being too old, and slowed due to rheumatism (even though he managed to set the scene for his ::cough:: faked death in two minutes.)
If there’s another instance, though, please post it when you find it. I imagine there could be.
Well, I’m too slow with the refresh button. Alas… Earwax.
EDIT: Although this has nothing to do with Snape directly, any evidence contributing to (or refuting) a number of DD’s death plot theories has a great bearing on the Good/Evil Snape Debate.
rambkowalczyk - Jun 30, 2006 9:51 am (#2596 of 2969)
When I first read Spinners End, it seemed to imply that Dumbledore got the injury at the ministry of magic when dueling with Voldemort. Rambkowalczyk post 2582
...Dumbledore is growing old. The duel with the Dark Lord last month shook him. He has since sustained a serious injury because his reactions are slower than they once were.' quote found by the saint to refute my impression
just a small clarification. I was describing a first impression I got. Obviously I skipped over the word "since" and assumed that Snape was lying to Bella to misdirect her. That was my entire point. Snape is misdirecting Bella.
Mattew Bates - Jun 30, 2006 10:15 am (#2597 of 2969)
wynnleaf, I like those abbreviations. Is there a similar one to suggest that Snape's true loyalty is to himself alone? Of course, perhaps that is splitting hairs between "ESE Loyal Death Eater" and "ESE Out For Himself," but I think it is a valid distinction if our hypothesizing extends to his motivations.
Magic Words - Jun 30, 2006 12:19 pm (#2598 of 2969)
IMO all the mentions of Dumbledore being slower and weaker than he once was refer to the mistake that injured his hand, not the effect of the injury. If his reactions were as fast as they had always been, I don't believe he would have sustained lasting damage as he clearly did. The times when he does use his hand, for wandwork or swimming, could easily be chalked up to adrenaline.
TheSaint - Jun 30, 2006 1:49 pm (#2599 of 2969)
The times when he does use his hand, for wandwork or swimming, could easily be chalked up to adrenaline.
This is true..Epinephrine will make a dead heart sing just a while longer. I do think had he been as fast as he used to be he would not have sustained the injury, but i do think they are overplaying his 'disability' a bit.
Dobby Socks - Jun 30, 2006 2:23 pm (#2600 of 2969)
Hi Magic Words. I’ve been sitting here for a seemingly immeasurable amount of time trying to figure out whether Snape being out for himself can be absolutely extricated from either Good Snape or Evil Snape, and if so, in what situation (trying to formulate a list of all possible situations). Also, can the end justify the motivation? And I’m working up a massive headache. If I don’t make any sense, chalk it up to that.
Re: your post… I can see how an adrenaline surge could overcome an injury (not one that is very serious, but perhaps mildly incapacitating -- unless this is different in the Wizarding World.)
I do think, given the probable nastiness of the ring horcrux, that it very well could have injured him in the manner it did no matter how fast his reactions were.
I wonder, if Snape could *really* “stopper death,” or at least do so for a bit, could he make a hand temporarily regain its former function?
It does seem like they are broadcasting his injury and his “slowed reactions” over a loudspeaker at every convenient chance.
Tom Marvolo Riddleton - Jun 30, 2006 3:04 pm (#2601 of 2969)
Personally, I don't believe that DD's getting older was really taking much of an effect on him; if anything, perhaps the pressure he has had on him lately might be stressing him out. I wouldn't be surprised if DD knew that he would have his hand injured when he obtained the ring from the Gaunt house, and was simply agreeing with Slughorn when he suggested "Reactions not what they were, I see" so as not to have to go into detail about how he had sustained his injury, thus misdirecting anybody from figuring out anything that had to do with Voldemort's Horcrux. Perhaps the reason that we have yet to really learn of the thrilling tale of DD's having obtained the ring can be attributed to some from of DD's willingness to sacrifice himself? The reason I bring this up on this thread is that, if I am lucky enough to be on the right track with my guess work, perhaps it can shed some light on whether or not Snape is or is not ESE? If DD was willing to give up his hand, then it might be possible that he was willing to give up the rest of his body also, and thus it could tie into some of the theories floating around out there that suggest that DD had sacrificed himself on the lightning-struck tower. This might justify DD's complete lack of fear in the tower, and perhaps when DD was begging Snape it was not for help to survive but rather to kill him; Snape was angry because DD had asked him to do such a thing, and thus the look on his face in the tower. This might have something to do with the scene at Spinner's End; IMO, the sacrificial plan would have had to come after this if it existed at all, but Snape would perhaps have been suggesting that DD was getting weaker simply to throw off Bella of the missions that DD was going on. While I still think it's pretty up in the air whether or not Snape knew anything about the Horcruxes, he must have had some idea what DD was doing to have sustained the injury, as it was him that had to save the Headmaster; he was the one that would have had to know enough of the mission to understand the magic that he must use to save DD; either way, I like to think Snape is pretty intelligent and can figure some stuff out for himself. And I don't personally think that DD was lying when he said he had an ironclad reason to trust Snape, and while I can only guess what that reason is for now, I imagine that DD would trust Snape enough to let him, above all others but Harry, know some information about his missions when he leaves the school. And I know this is all a little iffy, the night of the lightning-struck tower scene, but it is my belief that DD knew what the potion in the cave was, knew that he would be incredibly weakened by it, but was perfectly OK with that because he had come up with some sacrificial plot involving Snape, involving the Unbreakable Vow that Snape might not have truly known about (meaning what Draco's real mission was) but had already made and thus had no choice but to do or die (literally). And if there was no sacrificial plot that was planned out with precision for that night (it would make sense for DD to have had some more Order members present if he knew Draco was going to do something, as he may be OK with sacrificing himself but he would certainly be unhappy about leaving his students unprotected), I at least think that DD was not to worried about sacrificing himself at some time; after all, I believe it's "to the organized mind, death is but the next great step." And I think DD has learned by now that he can't protect Harry forever, as suggested by his willingness to finally tell Harry about the prophecy and to let Harry come along with him to the cave. I know I copied a bunch of people's ideas here, but that was not my intention; I'm just trying to find a way to piece all of this together from beginning to end of HBP in a way that might suggest that Snape is on the side of good and not evil. And finally, after all of that, perhaps Snape really was giving Harry advice at the end of HBP when he told Harry to close his mind; Voldemort, being as naive as he is towards the power of love, would try and attack Harry based on what Harry loves in life, as the Dark Lord would see this as Harry's greatest weakness. Snape, while perhaps not really liking Harry in any way, was still loyal to DD even after he had killed him and was trying to get Harry to understand the one advantage he has over Voldemort, the same thing DD tried to get Harry to understand repeatedly, and was attempting to tell Harry to not let Voldemort use this against him. I don't know if this all works, but I put a lot of effort into stringing all of the "Snape is good" theories together and making the Spinner's End scene make sense as towards Snape's attitude towards DD's possible weakness due to age.
wynnleaf - Jun 30, 2006 3:28 pm (#2602 of 2969)
IMO all the mentions of Dumbledore being slower and weaker than he once was refer to the mistake that injured his hand, not the effect of the injury. If his reactions were as fast as they had always been, I don't believe he would have sustained lasting damage as he clearly did. The times when he does use his hand, for wandwork or swimming, could easily be chalked up to adrenaline.
Not the first time we see him use his injured hand. It's at the Dursley's and DD had his wand out and in use so fast Harry could hardly see it. No adrenaline can explain that.
On the ESE (ever so evil) and DDM (Dumbledore's Man), I don't think there's one for Snape being out for himself. Well, anyway, if there is such an abbreviation, I haven't seen it. And ESE and DDM can be used for many characters.
Choices - Jun 30, 2006 4:22 pm (#2603 of 2969)
Dobby Socks - "I do think, given the probable nastiness of the ring horcrux, that it very well could have injured him in the manner it did no matter how fast his reactions were."
I agree with you, Dobby. I think the protections on the ring Horcrux could not be delt with in any other way but to sacrifice his hand. Speed, reaction time, old age...had nothing to do with it. Also, I think that in times of war, it is never a bad thing to have your enemy THINK you are weaker than you really are.
Ken Brennan - Jun 30, 2006 5:50 pm (#2604 of 2969)
I think that despite the overwhelming evidence that Snape is evil...he may be good still. He may have killed dumbledore knowing the symptoms of the potion and knowing that he was done for anyway. Also, he saw that Dumbledore was wandless, thus any attempt to get him his wand would make the death eaters suspicious. He also may have killed him to help in his case that he is on volds side to get in deeper and eventually help Harry. Also, Snape had to kill Dumbledore one way or the other if Draco didnt due to the Vow correct?. Evidence supporting this theory: Snape stupefied the proffessor in the dungeon..not kill him. Snape didnt kill harry. Snape could have killed Order members unnoticed...didn't. Evidence against: The descriptioin of the look on Snape's face when he killed DD. Dumbledore himself said that great wizards though however rare make mistakes...and when they do, they are huge, and snape could have been one of them. Just like Voldemort. Both were Half blood...along with harry, Is Harry a mistake...hmm. Also, snape's potions book was evil enough. (6/27/06) More evidence for the theory: When Hagrid and Harry put out the shed(on fire), Hagrid hit the nail on the head when he explained, "What musta happened was, DD musta told Snape to go with them Death Eaters,". That is probably exactly what He told him to do. This helps justify the look on Snape's face when he killed DD. He knew he'd be a marked man from then on. (4/26/06) Just throwin this out there. I think DD may be alive. It may have been an intricate plan to fake a death to help Harry outside of the school and make Vold. Think he was gone. He knew the school was capable of running itself and had to pursue more important things. This coupled with Bellatrix's quote"an unforgivable curse won't work unless you mean it." This could be how dumb. survived the killing curse. Snape being an excellant legilimens, read dd's mind on the tower and saw what dumblesore had in mind. He would not have wanted to take the risk of actually kiling dd which explains the look on his face when he did it. DD saw the look and said" severus...please." And severus did it. The fact that Harry describes DD falling "Slowly", may hint at a levitating charm. Besides, all the other death eaters were right there(I hope Rowling didn't confirm his death)(if so...whoops) -Later when Harry met with Snape in the woods, snape didnt hurt harry, nor did he let another death eater kill him. Though his excuse was that the dark lord wanted him for himself, he may have been protecting Harry. ( I know I have restated myslef a few times)
Magic Words - Jun 30, 2006 6:22 pm (#2605 of 2969)
Edited Jun 30, 2006 7:24 pm
One passage I see as a major piece of evidence that wasn't brought up in either summary just now was Snape's reaction to Harry calling him a coward or, more specifically, the way JKR wrote his reaction. Harry calls Snape a coward twice. The first time, "Stand and fight, you coward," Snape responds with a jab at the Marauders ("your father never attacked me unless it was four on one, what does that make him?") A couple pages later, Harry says "Kill me like you killed him, you coward," and Snape completely loses it. It can't have been the word "coward" he was really reacting to, because he's already been called a coward and didn't lose his cool. So it must have been "kill me like you killed him" that upset him. Also, he's described as looking like he's in pain. Not anger, pain. He's actually compared to Fang, who's trapped in a burning building at the time. This would be an odd thing for Harry to notice, since you generally don't stop to sympathize with people you're angry enough with to kill, so it must be very important for JKR to point it out.
Ken Brennan - Jun 30, 2006 7:53 pm (#2606 of 2969)
Maybe Snape felt like telling Harry that DD wanted snape to kill him, and the word coward would certainly be an offense after doing something that must've taken all the courage in the world.
Tom Marvolo Riddleton - Jun 30, 2006 8:36 pm (#2607 of 2969)
Quite astute, Magic Words. I'm curious as to why you offer no explanation as towards what you feel this might suggest? Perhaps you thought it was self-explanatory. Either way, I'll offer my own opinion; if nothing else, you can tell me if I've got it right. When Harry speaks to Snape of the deed he did it sickens him. His terrible aggravation was directed not at being called a coward but rather at having been reminded of the deed he had done, as you pointed out it was "as though he was in as much pain as the yelping, howling dog stuck in the burning house behind them." (pg 604, HBP US HDBK) I'm assuming (and hoping) that this means that Snape was absolutely devastated at what he had done, and thus that Snape had not wanted to kill DD at all, and finally that that must mean he was on the side of good, and not ESE. And perhaps we can guess that he murdered DD under DD's orders, based on DD's having pleaded with Snape for something in the lightning-struck tower, and thus that DD sacrificed himself. Does that sound about right?
Solitaire - Jun 30, 2006 9:05 pm (#2608 of 2969)
Ken and Tom, a request ... You both have good things to say, but those really L-O-N-G posts are hard to read for someone with bad eyes ... like me. It would help if you could put a couple of paragraph breaks (double spaces) into those really long posts. Thank you.
Solitaire
Laura W - Jun 30, 2006 11:52 pm (#2609 of 2969)
Edited Jul 1, 2006 12:57 am
Ken Brennan wrote: "Maybe Snape felt like telling Harry that DD wanted snape to kill him, and the word coward would certainly be an offense after doing something that must've taken all the courage in the world."
Not to mention the courage Snape has had to exhibit by pretending to spy for Voldemort while actually spying for DD all these years - assuming, for the time being, that that is what has been going on.
He would require physical courage to face every day what would undoubtedly happen to him if V or any of the other DEs (read, Bellatrix) ever found out the truth, and emotional courage to live every day with being mistrusted - hated, even - by both sides. This being the case, it is understandable how he would react to being called a coward.
Laura
Magic Words - Jul 1, 2006 5:56 am (#2610 of 2969)
Sorry, Tom. I did think it was self-explanatory, because I've expressed my views about Snape before (often), but most of those posts were a while ago and it didn't occur to me that not everyone would have seen them. Yes, you've pretty well explained what I was implying.
wynnleaf - Jul 1, 2006 6:35 am (#2611 of 2969)
Edited Jul 1, 2006 7:36 am
I was reading some threads on another site and had a thought -- wondering who had saved lives the most lives during the actual events of the HP series (not including before Harry came to Hogwarts). I think it's Snape, depending on what you're willing to count or not as saving or helping to save lives.
Definite lives threatened and Snape saved (or helped save) life:
1. Harry on broom in SS/PS 2. Harry about to be attacked by Moody/Crouch in GOF -- Snape joins with DD and McGonagall 3. OOTP, Snape sends Order to MOM which saves lives of all students there 4. in HBP he saves DD's life 5. in HBP he saves Katie Bell's life 6. in HBP he saves Draco's life (sectemsempra event) 7. in HBP he saves Harry when he stops DE from attacking Harry. Granted you could probably come up with reasons for why an Evil Snape would do these things. Still, it's a lot of lives saved to have to come up with Evil reasons for all of them.
Lives that were in debatable peril
1. Snape moves 4 people to safety from werewolf in POA 2. Stops Harry from being strangled in OOTP 3. and through the potions book he makes it possible for Harry to save Ron in HBP.
Now Harry has saved these from definite peril:
1. Ginny in COS 2. Sirius in POA 3. Pettigrew in POA 4. sort of helped save Arthur in OOTP by telling about his vision 5. Ron in HBP
Saved lives from debatable peril:
1. in GOF he saved Ron and Fleur's little sister in lake.
DD saved 1. Harry from fall from broom 2. Harry and friends at MOM 3. Harry from Crouch/Moody in GOF 4. may have sent Fawkes to Harry in COS 5. gave Harry the info to fight inferi and helped in saving them from inferi.
There may be some I'm forgetting. Maybe if anyone remembers more you could add to my list.
Of course you can come up with reasons for why an evil Snape would save lives in order to further an Evil Plan, or to keep from being Found Out, or some other reason. However, it will seem like very strange character portrayal if JKR has Snape be Evil while also saving perhaps more lives than anyone else during the series.
Thoughts anyone?
Catherine - Jul 1, 2006 7:27 am (#2612 of 2969)
Edited Jul 1, 2006 8:38 am
2. Stops Harry from being strangled in OOTP --Wynnleaf
I don't recall this. Perhaps you mean Neville instead of Harry?
Mundungus saved Ron from being strangled in OoP.
Grawp's interference saved Harry and Hermione from the Centaurs and Umbridge in the Forbidden Forest.
Dumbledore saved Harry at the end of SS/PS
Harry rescued Cedric from Krum's Crucio in the maze, and kept Cedric from being attacked by the acromantula.
Harry and Ron saved Hermione from the troll in SS/PS.
Lily Potter saved her son with her sacrifice.
Harry saved Dobby from Lucius Malfoy's rage.
Dobby did not allow Lucius Malfoy to attack Harry at the end of CoS.
Harry saved Ginny, Ron, and Hermione (probably) by giving them each a dose of his Felix Felicis
Hagrid helped rescue Katie Bell by getting her to the hospital wing speedily.
Harry and Hermione saved Sirius's soul (which is akin to life, in my opinion) from being sucked out.
Harry and Hermione saved Buckbeak's life.
Soul Search - Jul 1, 2006 7:29 am (#2613 of 2969)
Edited Jul 1, 2006 8:33 am
Good analysis, wynnleaf.
What comes to mind first is that for most of Snape's "saving" events, there is a reason why an "evil" Snape would have done it. That is, Snape would have a good reason to hand for the "saving" if Voldemort (or Bella) called him on it.
I find it interesting that the storyline has specifically included evidence and justifications for both sides of the Snape good/evil question for Snape's "saving" actions.
Snape's reaction to Bella's accusations in Spinner's End even highlights this duality for we readers. (Since Harry wasn't there, the whole chapter was just for we reader's understanding.) It might even be significant that the information in Spinner's End was presented without Harry; we understand Snape's good/evil duality, but Harry only sees the evil side.
As I suggested a while back, I am believing that the storyline for the entire Harry Potter series is Harry/Snape, rather than Harry/Voldemort: we see a lot more of the Harry/Snape relationship than the Harry/Voldemort relationship.
wynnleaf - Jul 1, 2006 8:43 am (#2614 of 2969)
Soul Search,
I agree entirely.
Catherine,
Thanks for mentioning the other life saving events. I'd forgotton who was being strangled in OOTP! Thanks!
I didn't list anyone other than Harry, DD, and Snape because I knew no other character had close to the number of lives saved. If you add on the ones you listed of Harry's, it looks like Snape and Harry saved a similar number of lives (sending the Order to the MOM counted for 5 people saved). Harry may be ahead on number of life-saving events. Snape may be ahead on numbers of people.
The main thing that struck me was how strange this will look if Snape turned out to be Evil. And how would we find out why Snape did all these things? Another round of explanations like he did with Bella? After all, Bella didn't know he's saved anyone's life, so he never had to explain that to her.
Solitaire - Jul 1, 2006 8:55 am (#2615 of 2969)
The main thing that struck me was how strange this will look if Snape turned out to be Evil.
Oddly, I think it would only serve to make him look even more evil ... because it would point out the lengths to which he was willing to go--the duplicitous life he'd lived for so many years--to carry out his evil deeds. JM2K ...
Solitaire
Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 1, 2006 12:14 pm (#2616 of 2969)
Edited Jul 1, 2006 1:23 pm
I find the description of the Hebridean Black Dragon given by J.K. Rowling to be applicable to Severus Snape.
Britain's other native dragon is more aggressive than its Welsh counterpart. It requires a territory of as much as a hundred square miles per dragon. Up to thirty feet in length, the Hebridean Black is rough scales, with brilliant purple eyes, and line of shallow but razor-sharp ridges along its back. Its tail is tipped by an arrow shaped spike and it has bat like wings. The Hebridean Black feeds mostly on deer, though it has been known to carry off large dogs and even cattle. The wizard clan MacFusty, who have dwelled in the Hebrides for centuries have traditionally taken responsibility for the management of their native dragons. (FB page 12)
First, Severus has an aggressive nature and is also quite territorial. Second, Severus Snape has been described as bat-like on several occasions Most not notably he was described as an overgrown bat during the course of PS. Second, Severus was a member of the House of Slythern while in school and later served as it's head. The emblem of Slytherin is a serpent. Third, the fact that the diet of the Hebridean Black consists mainly of deer and can sometimes include large dogs reminds me of the animosity that existed between Severus and James whose animagus form was that of stag (deer) and Sirius whose animagus form was that of large black dog.
Choices - Jul 1, 2006 12:16 pm (#2617 of 2969)
I think Snape reacted so violently to the word "coward" for much the same reason he argued with Dumbledore in the forest. He is really tired of doing what he is doing - he has taken on this spy job that requires him to do things that put him in great personal danger - nobody but Dumbledore seems to know just what all that entails. Snape has just done something so horrendous, so upsetting, something that took tremendous courage to do, and then Harry blithely throws out the "coward" accusation. I can just see Snape thinking, "OK, that's the final straw. This little twirp dares to call me a coward when he knows nothing of the lengths to which I have to go to do what I do. How dare he!!" Understandable explosion!!
Solitaire - Jul 1, 2006 12:34 pm (#2618 of 2969)
Edited Jul 1, 2006 1:35 pm
Snape has just done something so horrendous, so upsetting, something that took tremendous courage to do
Alas, all Harry knows is that Snape killed an unarmed Dumbledore. To him, it was extremly cowardly, not courageous. Harry cannot be blamed for feeling as he does in this instance. He is not privy to any plans involving the killing of Dumbledore. Besides, we still do not know for certain that it was an act of courage ... do we?
Solitaire
wynnleaf - Jul 1, 2006 3:09 pm (#2619 of 2969)
Choices,
I agree with you interpretation of Snape's reaction to the word "coward." Of course, Harry can in no way be expected to know it wasn't anything other than a cowardly act. Even if Harry had not hated Snape already, even if he had trusted him like DD, he would still have seen the AKing of DD as a terribly cowardly act.
Solitaire, I'm not quite sure I get what you mean. At first I thought I agreed, but now I'm not sure. If Snape is truly evil, how can the "apparently" good deeds he did (saving lives) make him somehow more evil? In other words, even though that would show even more underhanded actions, the actions themselves would have had good effects (lives saved). So I can't see how they'd add to his evil.
But what I really meant about it seeming strange for Snape to have done all that and still be evil is more from a character portrayal aspect. Can anyone imagine an Evil Villian gloating at how he'd accomplished lots of nasty plans by saving or helping to save a number of people's lives? It just seems sort of bizarre. Or how about the explanation to another DE -- "oh, I had to save this person's life to accomplish x, this person's life to accomplish y, and this person's life to accomplish z. So don't hold all those lives I saved against me. I can save lots of people's lives and still be loyal to LV." It just sounds sort of silly. I suppose JKR might be able to write that believably, but to me it's hard to imagine. And if Snape turns out to be evil, she'll have to explain his "good" actions, since he never explained anything about the lives saved at Spinners End.
Choices - Jul 1, 2006 4:55 pm (#2620 of 2969)
Edited Jul 1, 2006 5:56 pm
I was speaking of Snape's reaction to Harry calling him a coward. Of course to Harry it seemed a cowardly act - he didn't know any better. I was just trying to say how Snape must have felt, knowing what he/Snape knows about the life he has been living for so long and the things he has had to do as a spy. His life is on the line constantly, so being called a coward had to have hurt and enraged him at the same time.
wynnleaf - Jul 1, 2006 7:19 pm (#2621 of 2969)
I'm sorry, Choices. I knew that's what you meant. But I combined the stuff on what Harry thought into the paragraph where I said I agreed with you, making it appear that I'd misinterpreted your comments. That's where my own bad paragraph construction can really mess me up!
The Artful Dodger - Jul 2, 2006 4:37 am (#2622 of 2969)
Edited Jul 2, 2006 5:44 am
"I can save lots of people's lives and still be loyal to LV." It just sounds sort of silly.
That is true. But on the other hand, "I'm a good guy, but I had to kill Dumbledore." sounds equally sort of silly, doesn't it?
I am not convinced of the had to part, especially. While I could accept (with a little effort) that Dumbledore and Snape planned the killing, I cannot see why this should have been a necessity.
wynnleaf - Jul 2, 2006 4:46 am (#2623 of 2969)
Edited Jul 2, 2006 5:47 am
The Artful Dodger,
Well, actually, it's the number that makes it sound so bizarre to me. For an Evil Villian to explain why he had to save a life once , in order to carry out his nefarious plans, sounds plausible. Ditto for why a good guy might have to explain why he had to kill someone once (uh, that's if DD's really dead, of course). So it really doesn't sound so silly -- if a sufficiently strong explanation were produced -- to say that one of the good guys had to kill another good guy. But suppose Snape had on numerous occasions killed some of the good guys, and then tried to say it was all to benefit the good side's plans. Well, that would just sound ridiculous - unbelievable for the plot. In the same way, it sounds sort of ridiculous for Snape the Evil Villian to have saved lives many times, all to carry forward evil plans.
Solitaire - Jul 2, 2006 6:28 am (#2624 of 2969)
Edited Jul 2, 2006 7:30 am
Wynnleaf, people often do seemingly good things for bad reasons and bad things for good reasons (ends justify the means?) ... I think that is what I mean, but I may need more coffee before I'm sure!
I was thinking of Snape's explanations to Bella back at Spinner's End. Whatever good Snape may have done, if his ultimate goal all along was the destruction of the Order, the murder of Dumbledore, and the death of Harry, then IMO, any good things he may have done along the way would seem meaningless and cruel. They would be nothing but manipulation and lies. That's just how I see it, of course.
Solitaire
Soul Search - Jul 2, 2006 7:06 am (#2625 of 2969)
Does this all mean Snape has "a saving people thing?"
Regarding Snape's reaction to Harry calling him a coward:
Snape reacts strongly, bringing up Harry's father. Sounds to me like Snape really cares what Harry thinks of him. Bit strange that Snape values Harry's opinion of him.
We might extrapolate and suggest that Snape sought a favorable opinion from James, but never could get it.
Dobby Socks - Jul 2, 2006 9:46 am (#2626 of 2969)
Edited Jul 2, 2006 11:00 am
Does this all mean Snape has "a saving people thing?" LOL, Soul Search. I know it’s not a laughing matter, but it just struck me as funny. I think because I’m picturing one of the trio (was it Hermione or maybe Ron?) walking up to Severus and saying in a scolding yet concerned way, “Well, you know Professor Snape, you do kind of have a, uhh… sort of a Saving People Thing.” Wonder what his reaction to that would be?
Still, most instances of Snape saving people fall into one of two categories. He saves Harry repeatedly (and, as in the MoM incident, those who are with Harry at least by default.) And, in the cases of Katie Bell, etc., I think it’s because his extensive knowledge of the Dark Arts and particularly his talent for Potions often puts him in the role of resident Healer when the matter is too complex for Madame Pomfrey to handle.
As for Neville (apart from a good opportunity for JKR to insert some humor into that situation,) I think it’s a natural human reaction to stop someone from being strangled to death. Would “Evil Snape” have done the same thing? Maybe, since he’s in public view. I really have no idea. It seems like a particularly bad idea for anyone to let that happen. I think even Umbridge may have stopped it: if she hadn’t been in such a crazed, fanatical state, she may have noticed the possibility that something truly bad might have happened to Neville. Lying about a Crucio is one thing (easy to get away with.) Having a dead student on her hands would be a political nightmare.
And, despite his harsh treatment of some of his students, I don’t think Snape wants to see any of the kids hurt or dead. He might actually have a “saving people thing,” either because of lingering guilt from his DE days, or from seeing all the horrible things happen when he was a DE (and likely as a spy, depending on what the requirements of that were.) He may be trying to reverse what he’s done and what he’s witnessed. He may also feel a moral obligation to protect the students.
Why he’s particularly prone to saving Harry is still up in the air, IMO. Transferred Life Debt? Keeping the “Chosen One” intact to finish off Voldemort?
"Regarding Snape's reaction to Harry calling him a coward:
Snape reacts strongly, bringing up Harry's father. Sounds to me like Snape really cares what Harry thinks of him. Bit strange that Snape values Harry's opinion of him.
We might extrapolate and suggest that Snape sought a favorable opinion from James, but never could get it."
Soul Search, I think Snape’s reaction to Harry calling him a coward is simply what several people have noted recently. He just did one of the most difficult and painful things he’s ever had to do. From his POV, the furthest thing from a cowardly act.
I do think it’s interesting that you brought up Snape’s valuing Harry’s opinion of him. I’d never really thought about it, but I think he does. I think he dislikes Harry. I think Harry frustrates him constantly. But I really think Snape wants respect from almost everyone no matter who they are. I think it’s a point of pride with him (which makes sense given what JKR has shown us about his childhood and teenaged years.) Does he particularly want respect from Harry? Perhaps he does due to what he went through with Harry’s father. A very interesting question.
Respect from James? My knee jerk reaction was no. I think once the dynamics of their relationship was crystallized, there was no chance for a friendly respect, needless to say. And when they were first at Hogwarts, I can’t see him seeking respect from James in terms of friendship – they appeared to be polar opposites and I can’t see a kid from Slytherin who was introverted, extremely bright, academically inclined, and carrying a Dark Arts background seeking out respect from a popular, wealthy, Dark Arts hating Gryffindor, who seemed to be more concerned with having fun than with gaining knowledge (although we know James was also very bright.) I can see Severus having some envy which he probably denied. However, as they became rivals, I can see him wanting James to respect him in a sort of “I can out hex you from here to Kingdom Come” kind of way. “You may have all of these coveted qualities, but in the end, I’m smarter, stealthier, more powerful” and etc.
Ann - Jul 2, 2006 4:00 pm (#2627 of 2969)
Edited Jul 2, 2006 5:04 pm
Regarding Snape's reaction to Harry calling him a coward, I don't think that "Don't call me coward!" was what he meant to say at first. What JKR wrote was "Don't----call me coward!" Then she spooned a lot of description in between the dashes for camouflage.
Regarding Snape's statements at Spinner's End versus his Saving People Thing. I've always said that you have to watch what Snape actually DOES. He's very skilled at manipulating words (see his poetic speeches at the beginning of Potions and DADA), and that's clearly what he's doing at Skinner's End. But if you look at what options he has and what he actually chooses to do, it's clear (to me) that he's Dumbledore's Man.
Regarding something that I haven't seen discussed (let me know if you have, please--I don't read all the threads): There's a theory (summarized on the Red Hen site under the title Second Guessing) that book 1 parallels 5, book 2 parallels 6, and book 3 will parallel 7. It's a clever theory, and strangely convincing, though it's not entirely clear why JKR would do this. Still, a summary:
1 & 5: Voldemort spends the entire book trying to get a magical object (SS/prophecy) that's hidden underground, at the end of a series of rooms containing barriers. His henchman uses Harry to get the object, but fails to get it away from him, and in the end it is destroyed. Ron and Hermione help, but are unavailable at the climax. Dumbledore saves Harry from Voldemort.
2 & 6: A book, which Harry has for at least part of the year, is really important, and leads characters to do things they might not do otherwise. It's origin is uncertain, and it turns out to have originated with someone that Harry hates, though he thinks as the writer/annotater as a friend initially. Harry's skill as a Parseltongue plays an important role throughout, as do House-Elves. Fawkes sings at the end.
3 & 7: A murderer is on the run throughout most of the book, and Harry thinks he really hates him, but towards the end he discovers that the man's actions have been misunderstood and he's really an ally. Dementors feature prominently, and Remus Lupin is important. Harry finds out a lot about his parents that he hadn't known previously. Ron is badly hurt, and Harry and Hermione fight on. Going back in time is featured.
This is only an outline--there are lots of other parallels--but I find it pretty convincing. A lot of things in the 3-7 parallel are hinted about in the earlier books. But I'm posting it here, since it's particularly interesting in view of the parallel between Sirius and Snape.
Choices - Jul 2, 2006 4:38 pm (#2628 of 2969)
Those parallels are very interesting Ann - thanks for posting them.
rambkowalczyk - Jul 2, 2006 6:41 pm (#2629 of 2969)
Previously there has been mentioned of Snape doing the Machiavelli thing, that is he is in it for himself. There is a reference to a Severus in Roman times who sought to be governor by having two side play against each other and then he defeated the winner. The point is in books 1 through 5 and the first part of 6 it was convenient for Snape to act as though he was on Dumbledore's side because it earns Dumbledore's trust.
For whatever reason whether Dumbledore ordered it or not he killed Dumbledore to insure that the Dark Lord knows whose side he is on. Here's the key point: In order for ESE Snape to defeat Voldemort, he has to help Harry find the Horcruxes and destroy them.
It is only after Harry kills Voldemort does he then try to kill Harry.
This is the jist of a theory that I read on the Mugglenet Editorials.
Ann - Jul 2, 2006 7:21 pm (#2630 of 2969)
But that doesn't make any sense at all rambkowalczyk. If he's evil, he's either out for Voldemort or for himself. If he's for Voldemort, he wouldn't help Harry with the Horcruxes. If he's for himself, why in heaven's name has he spent fifteen years as a much-hated school teacher? There are many more effective ways to build up a following than alienating the generation that will be fighting with our against you. By being Dumbledore's employee all these years (perhaps under duress, but he has remained at Hogwarts) and by being nasty to everyone who isn't a Slytherin, Snape has surrendered any hope of recruiting followers. The DE wannabes will hate him for turning on Voldemort; the others will hate him for favoring the DE wannabes. It's simply not good politics.
I've always thought that the clearest evidence of the side he's really on is that he argues with Dumbledore and doesn't argue with Voldemort (so far as we can see). If Snape were trying to fool Dumbledore, he'd go along with everything, and then undercut it. But he argues....
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Magic Words - Jul 2, 2006 7:49 pm (#2631 of 2969)
Edited Jul 2, 2006 8:53 pm
The trouble is, I'm not sure the DE's and Co. would hate him. Well, they might, but I think they would follow him anyway if he managed to kill Voldemort and proclaim himself Dark Lord. He might have to get rid of Bella in the process, but then he'd have just proven himself more powerful than Voldemort, and the DE's would have a choice between supporting him and running to the Ministry. Presumably by that point the good side would be severely weakened, maybe recovering from a large battle, with Dumbledore gone and possibly Harry. I'm not saying this will happen or even that it's his plan, but IMO it's plausible enough that I can't keep it from nagging at the back of my mind.
Edit: Ann--I'd been thinking the parallels were more 1/7, 2/6, 3/5, but your suggestion probably makes more sense. I hope it's true about the escaped "murderer!"
sere35 - Jul 3, 2006 12:43 pm (#2632 of 2969)
I have always said that Snape is out for himself. However I dont think he has any desire to have followers or be the next dark lord. I think he is evil and has been playing both sides against the other but has been doing it for his own reasons that are not readily apparent.
Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 3, 2006 3:12 pm (#2633 of 2969)
sere35 I have thought that too. I don't even think Snape knows whose side he is on. He probably won't till the end. He is so evil. LPO
cindysuewho45 - Jul 4, 2006 1:23 am (#2634 of 2969)
Hi all, I was thinking that we may not see as much of Snape as we think at the start. Snape will be in hiding form the MoM and the Order. So Harry will not be seeing him all the time, like he did when he was at school. Snape will show up at some point, maybe helping LV or to try and make up for all that has happened. "Maybe" We will see. I do not think that Snape is a good guy. But I love the way that JKR has wrote him as well as, I love how he is played in the movies.
Ann - Jul 4, 2006 4:07 am (#2635 of 2969)
I think (continuing the parallel with Sirius I mentioned earlier), that we'll perhaps get a glimpse of Snape at the beginning. The manhunt for him will continue, and will be an important subplot interwoven with the Horcrux hunt. Harry will learn even more damning things about his backstory, will occasionally glimpse him, and will perhaps receive something that Hermione suspects was sent by him. And then he will appear towards the end of the book and play a big role in the final conflict.
And of course, I do believe he will turn out to be Dumbledore's man. I don't think any other ending is possible.
Solitaire - Jul 4, 2006 11:11 am (#2636 of 2969)
I agree, Ann, that we will see Snape at the beginning. Having killed Dumbledore, perhaps he will be welcomed by Bella and will hide out with her. Or maybe we will see him in company with Voldemort in this book. I can hardly wait to see how this whole thing plays out.
Solitaire
haymoni - Jul 4, 2006 12:10 pm (#2637 of 2969)
I think we'll see another "3rd person" chapter like "Spinner's End" with Snape in it. Or possibly a pensieve scene. Otherwise, I don't think we'll see him until the end.
wynnleaf - Jul 4, 2006 12:49 pm (#2638 of 2969)
I really hope we get to see a scene where Snape interacts with LV. I've wanted to know exactly how that looks.
In POA, we didn't see much of anything of Sirius until the end. Yes, we saw things he'd done, but we didn't actually get to see him until the climactic parts. Book 7 could do something similar.
Mediwitch - Jul 4, 2006 4:46 pm (#2639 of 2969)
Edited Jul 4, 2006 5:46 pm
Well, wynnleaf, we did catch a glimpse of Sirius in animagus form (although we didn't know it until later), the night Harry blew up Aunt Marge and left Privet Drive. We really didn't see any action involving Sirius, but we did have that brief appearance.
I agree - I'd LOVE to see a scene with Snape and Voldemort interacting.
Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 4, 2006 6:13 pm (#2640 of 2969)
It would be interesting a scene with Snape and Voldemort. I wonder if Snape's eyes would have the empty, hollow look. Or would they be glittering with emotion? LPO
Catherine - Jul 4, 2006 6:50 pm (#2641 of 2969)
Interesting.
I thought Snape's eyes were black and cold and empty of emotion.
If they prove different, please let me know.
whitehound - Jul 4, 2006 7:21 pm (#2642 of 2969)
Snape's eyes are bound to be black most of the time when Harry sees him, since he is a dark-eyed man working in low light (the dungeons), and dark-eyed people don't tend to see well in the dark. His pupils will be fully expanded most of the time.
Other than that - JK repeatedly describes Snape as having cold, empty, dead-looking eyes, and I strongly suspect she knows that this dead look is called Thousand Mile Stare and is a known and common symptom of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder.
I don't know whether this has been raised before - I don't have time to read through the back posts, so somebody tell me and knock it on the head if you've already been through it. But -
We know there's something odd about the business with Snape telling Voldemort about the prophecy. It *could* just be sloppy writing, but certainly it sounds, both from the recording of the prophecy and from Sybill's account, as if that prophecy was made all in one piece, it wasn't interrupted by Snape being found listening at the door. It sounds as though he was caught after Sybyll had finished - and yet Dumbledore says Snape only gave Voldie half the prophecy.
Could it be that Snape was *already* Dumbledore's agent, and gave Voldie part of the prophecy on DD's orders? Since DD himself doesn't believe in prophecy he might have thought it was a harmless enough piece of information, which would entrench Snape in Voldie's good graces without telling him anything very useful - and then been surprized when two boys whose parents had thrice defied Voldie really were born at the end of July.
That would then raise the question of what, if it wasn't the threat to the Potters, caused Snape to desert Voldie and rejoin DD. But maybe nothing did. Maybe the reason DD trusts Snape so completely is because Snape has been DD's man all along, and only ever joined the Death Eaters as the Order's agent.
Of course, DD told the Wizengamot that Snape was a Death Eater who deserted Voldie - but that might have been a lie. We know Voldie and his inner circle know DD *thinks* Snape is his man, so hearing DD say Snape had deserted the Death Eaters and started working for him would jsut make them think Snape had done a very good job of convincing DD. But the information that DD had put him up to joining Voldie in the first place could get him killed.
Ann - Jul 4, 2006 8:17 pm (#2643 of 2969)
Edited Jul 4, 2006 9:18 pm
Whitehound, I think the way JKR had Dumbledore describe the eavesdropping at first is what's confusing things. He said (OotP) that a Death Eater heard the first part of the prophecy, but was detected and thrown out. He didn't mention a detail of the incident that we learn in HBP: the door to the room was opened in between so that the person who discovered the eavesdropper could tell the occupants that he (Snape) had been listening. Then he threw Snape out.
So the prophecy was continuous, but the second half ("And the Dark Lord shall mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not... And either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives") occurs while Snape is having a conversation with the discoverer. ("Hey! You there! You ought to be ashamed of yourself, listening at keyholes. This is a respectable inn! My guests deserve their privacy!" "You have... misunderstood, old man. I was simply tying my shoe." "Sure you were, mate. You're banned from the Hog's Head 'til further notice. Here... Excuse me, miss, but I thought you ought to know that this fellow has been listening at your keyhole. Oh! Hello, Albus! Anyway, I've got to throw this bloke out now.") It's easy to imagine that Snape was distracted by being discovered during the few seconds it took Sibyll to finish making the prophecy, so that when the door opened, she was already herself again.
What Dumbledore says makes it pretty clear that it was Voldemort's interpretation of the Prophecy that caused Snape to feel remorse and come to Dumbledore. So his conversion has to happen after he overhears the Prophecy (in Fall 1980, since that's when Trelawney was hired)--but I don't think it was much after.
Solitaire - Jul 4, 2006 8:18 pm (#2644 of 2969)
Well, Snape's eyes glittered in Chapter 36 of GoF:
"Severus," said Dumbledore, turning to Snape, "you know what I must ask you to do. If you are ready . . . if you are prepared ..."
"I am," said Snape.
He looked slightly paler than usual, and his cold, black eyes glittered strangely.
"Then good luck," said Dumbledore, and he watched, with a trace of apprehension on his face, as Snape swept wordlessly after Sirius.
Solitaire
Laura W - Jul 5, 2006 12:16 am (#2645 of 2969)
Edited Jul 5, 2006 1:18 am
"I thought Snape's eyes were black and cold and empty of emotion."
You're right, of course, Catherine. Most of the time they are described this way.
"If they prove different, please let me know."
From PoA:
(p. 209, Raincoast), " 'How extraordinarily like your father you are, Potter,' Snape said suddenly, his eyes glinting."
(p. 210, Raincoast), "Harry was suddenly on his feet. ... He didn't care that Snape's face had gone rigid, the black eyes flashing dangerously."
(p. 263, Raincoast), "Snape was slightly breathless, but his face was full of suppressed triumph. 'You're wondering, perhaps, how I knew you were here?' he said, his eyes glittering."
(p. 263, Raincoast), " 'Two more for Azkaban tonight,' said Snape, his eyes now gleaming fanatically."
(p. 264, Raincoast), "But there was a mad glint in Snape's eye that Harry had never seen before."
Hmm, Severus' eyes seem to have taken on a different personality in PoA than their usual cold, lifeless, dark-tunnel one.
Laura
Saracene - Jul 5, 2006 2:57 am (#2646 of 2969)
I agree that seeing some direct interaction between Snape and Voldemort would be awesome. I'm really curious what Snape is like around him.
I also keep my fingers crossed for the flashback to when Snape first approached Dumbledore back in the first war. Now that must have been one heck of an interesting conversation!
I've seen a few theories suggesting that Snape has been Dumbledore's man all along, but I very much doubt it. That would rob his character of complexity to a point and IMO it just makes for a much more powerful story if Snape had once truly been on the bad side and then repented.
Catherine - Jul 5, 2006 3:53 am (#2647 of 2969)
Hmm, Severus' eyes seem to have taken on a different personality in PoA than their usual cold, lifeless, dark-tunnel one. --Laura
Excellent sleuthing, Laura! I thank you.
haymoni - Jul 5, 2006 4:52 am (#2648 of 2969)
Yes - Snape with the Dark Lord - if he is closing his mind, that must take great effort vs. Voldy.
Interesting. I wonder if Voldy speaks to Snape like he does the other Death Eaters? Condescending. Mmmm...
wynnleaf - Jul 5, 2006 6:17 am (#2649 of 2969)
Edited Jul 5, 2006 7:20 am
Whitehound,
Ann gave a good summary of many of our thoughts regarding that particular problem (whether or not Snape heard the whole prophecy, his being thrown out, and Trelawney seeing him at the door).
I have read the Red Hen (at redhen-publications.com) essay where she believes that Trelawney's seeing Snape at the door is incompatible with DD's comments that he didn't hear the whole prophecy and was thrown out of the building. I wrote to her and went over the same basic explanation that Ann gave. She (Red Hen) seemed to think that DD had said that Snape was thrown out before the prophecy was completed, but that's not quite correct. DD simply said that the eavesdropper had been interrupted and was thrown out, but didn't get specific as to exactly when he was ejected from the building.
Once you envision the scene as Ann described, it's easy to see how Snape could simply have been unable to listen to the second half of the prophecy, as he was busy trying to deal with Alberforth. Then as Trelawney ends the prophecy, DD either hears Alberforth and Snape arguing in the corridor and opens the door, or Alberforth opened the door to alert DD that Snape had been eavesdropping. Anyway, Trelawney then saw Snape before Alberforth removed him.
For those that haven't read Red Hen's comments, she thought that DD must have been intentionally deceptive when he first told Harry that someone (Snape) had heard only half the prophecy and taken it to LV. She feels that since Snape must have heard the whole prophecy, he must have never been truly on LV's side, or he'd have given him the whole prophecy. Her theory is that Snape became a DE as a spy for DD.
I agree with many of the Red Hen's theories and her essays which, even if you don't agree, are fascinating and well thought through. But I don't agree with this particular theory.
Further, I agree with Saracene above. Snape's becoming a DE and then turning away from LV is a pretty powerful and complex part of the character. Not that other scenarios couldn't be just as powerful, but I do think the story needed a person who had gone toward LV and then turned away. (Regulas hardly counts since he's dead and not really a part of the story, even if he did write that note.)
Ann - Jul 5, 2006 7:25 am (#2650 of 2969)
Edited Jul 5, 2006 8:27 am
Wynnleaf, thanks for the support--though I think you were actually the first to formulate this. Point of fact, however: it's never been confirmed that it was Aberforth that caught Snape. (I think it almost certainly was, though.)
And I agree with you about Red Hen and her misguidedness on this particular question. After all, Dumbledore does say that Snape's greatest regret is giving Voldemort the part of the prophecy he heard. If he'd done so on Dumbledore's orders he would not be responsible for the decision. Dumbledore would never be so cowardly as to tell Harry that "Professor Snape made a terrible mistake" if the decision had been his own. And Dumbledore says specifically that when Snape heard the prophecy he was "still in Lord Voldemort's employ." He's not now, although he's pretending to be; that implies a change of loyalties. To put so much stress on the assumption that discovered and thrown out implies a continuous motion seems wrong-headed. (She also builds her entire timeline around Bellatrix's birthdate, as reported by a single person who saw it on the Black family tree at the auction preview, which I think is also wrong, especially given JKR's notorious sloppiness about numbers and birthdays anyway.) I love her "Second Guessing" essay, though.
Potter Ace - Jul 5, 2006 8:48 am (#2651 of 2969)
I read on another fan site that Harry will be using the two-way mirror in book 7. Does anybody think that Snape will be the person on the other end? Assuming that Snape is a good guy, how else do you suppose that he communicate with Harry to explain why he did what he did. This would give him the perfect opportunity to explain while not having to make a personal appearance.
Surely if he is on the good side, he will have to have another advocate on his side with DD gone, who better than Harry?
HungarianHorntail11 - Jul 5, 2006 9:18 am (#2652 of 2969)
Snape does not strike me as the "explaining oneself" type. I think he lets his actions speak for themselves and leaves others to figure it out. Though he does seem to relish being respected, that is as far as it seems to go. Furthermore, he only seems to be concerned with having the respect of those whom he deems superiors. If that was not the case, I don't think he'd put his neck on the line on DD's request as DD claims he had done.
Die Zimtzicke - Jul 5, 2006 10:11 am (#2653 of 2969)
I still think it is quite possible that Snape only gave Voldemort half of the prophecy.
It does say that:
"the eavesdropper was detected only a short way into the prophecy and thrown from the building"
But that doesn't add up when you think about the fact that Trelawney knew Snape was there, and she doesn't know what she doing when she makes a prophecy. If what Dumbledore said there was true, I still don't see how she could know it was Snape who was eavesdropping. I can't see why Dumbledore woukd tell her, unless it was a plus when he was trying to get her to Hogwarts, to keep her safe at that point. That's pretty much why she got the job. (It wasn't for ther Divination talent.) That might have backfired, though, when Snape started working there. She could have wondered why Dumbledore wanted her there, and then let Snape come work there, too.
Aren't we ALL wondering that one? LOL!
But maybe Snape had to give Voldmeort something, gave him half a prophecy, and it turned out to be a mistake to do that. But then why does he say it was Voldemort who wanted him to take the Hogwarts job? He can't be lying about that. It would be too easy for Bella to go back and ask Voldemort if it were true. It woudl be great to kow who thought up the idea of Snape working at Hogwarts first..Voldemort, Dumbledore or Snape himself.
Choices - Jul 5, 2006 10:24 am (#2654 of 2969)
I would love to see Snape face off with Voldemort. I was somewhat embarrassed for Lucius Malfoy when he faced Voldemort in the graveyard. Lucius is so arrogant and snobby that it was sort of painful to see him have to grovel before his "master" - not so much painful for me, but for him. Don't get me wrong, he deserved it. LOL
HungarianHorntail11 - Jul 5, 2006 10:37 am (#2655 of 2969)
Edited Jul 5, 2006 11:47 am
Die, from the reading, I gather that Trelawney was not aware that she was in danger. Snape may have even told Big V that some woman gave a prophecy and later put two and two together once Trelawney was hired.
If DD opened the door after Trelawney finished the prophecy, she would have been in a conscious state and may even have approached the door after DD to see what the fuss was about. Whoever followed Snape up the stairs caught him before she was through, but it was only seconds.
What I wonder is whether Snape told Big V that he only heard part of it, or whether he was afraid to and just gave him what he had without an explanation. Perhaps even he did not know he hadn't heard it in its entirety.
Choices, you are truly a kind hearted soul.
Just thought I'd bring this to the thread, maybe we can pick through it to figure out what Snape did afterward:
Well, it does seem as though Snape knew Big V had targeted all three Potters and it is possible that there was enough time for DD to send Snape to invoke some form of potions protection. If he and Lily were classmates, she would most likely trust him (James would have to be out of the way, though, because he certainly would not). Snape would be taking quite a chance at getting caught by Big V (or his spies) at the Potters' trying to help. That would explain DD's vouching for Snape at the trial in the Pensieve.
My point for bringing this post here is to solidify why DD trusts him.
rambkowalczyk - Jul 5, 2006 5:17 pm (#2656 of 2969)
But that doesn't make any sense at all rambkowalczyk. If he's evil, he's either out for Voldemort or for himself. If he's for Voldemort, he wouldn't help Harry with the Horcruxes. If he's for himself, why in heaven's name has he spent fifteen years as a much-hated school teacher? There are many more effective ways to build up a following than alienating the generation that will be fighting with our against you. By being Dumbledore's employee all these years (perhaps under duress, but he has remained at Hogwarts) and by being nasty to everyone who isn't a Slytherin, Snape has surrendered any hope of recruiting followers. The DE wannabes will hate him for turning on Voldemort; the others will hate him for favoring the DE wannabes. It's simply not good politics. Ann
Ann is responding to a theory I read in the Mugglenet Editorials which if nothing else implies that JKR is familiar with Machiavelli. To summarize, Niccolo Machiavelli wrote a book called "The Prince". At various points in book 6, the author of the Potion book scribblings is referred to as the Prince. The book is an advice, or how-to manual on how to get and keep power. Maybe somewhat similar to the Slytherin ideal on using any means available to get power.
Machiavelli also gives as an example of using fear and cunning a Roman general who made himself emperor. This Roman general was named Severus, described with the fierceness of a lion and the craft of a fox. (Snape can be seen as fierce and cruel, though the lion analogy may not work, but Bella did kill a fox on the way to Spinner's end).
This general, Severus was able to dispose of the current Emperor Julianus,(no particular parallel here) but to maintain this position he still had two other generals to contend with: Niger and Albinus. (Niger means black and Albinus means white). He offered a joint position of Emperor to Albinus so that Albinus would leave him alone. After he defeated Niger, he then killed Albinus. (The author of this theory, B J Texan, says Snape lead Voldemort to his death by giving him the prophecy, then he killed Albus Dumbledore).
The point I had wanted to make was that the instances where it seemed that Snape was following Dumbledore's orders could be just as easily explained by assuming Snape has this long range plan to obtain power.
Now to return to Ann's arguments. I'm stating that under this theory Snape is in it for himself not Voldemort. He works at Hogwarts, because he knows that Voldemort wasn't fully defeated by Harry. So he stays at Hogwarts because it's the best course of action. He knows that Dumbledore will help Harry when he gets older to defeat Voldemort. He stays there acting as Dumbledore's right hand man. He protects Harry not because Dumbledore wants him to but because he knows Harry is the only one who can defeat the dark lord,and he stays there because that is where the dark lord expected him to be.
Snape's following would be the death Eater's who are disillusioned with Voldemort. The Malfoy's come to mind. I'm sure there are others as well.
As far as it not being good politics, I tend to agree with Ann. Just because Snape is trying to obtain power isn't proof that he will get it or keep it. But according to Machiavelli this Severus general managed to not come to a bad end.
whitehound - Jul 5, 2006 5:28 pm (#2657 of 2969)
Edited Jul 5, 2006 6:34 pm
Ann says that "What Dumbledore says makes it pretty clear that it was Voldemort's interpretation of the Prophecy that caused Snape to feel remorse and come to Dumbledore."
This presupposes that Dumbledore is telling the truth, which is by no means guaranteed. In fact we're specifically told (in the conversation about the Mirror of Erised) that he doesn't always tell Harry the truth.
Laura W - Jul 5, 2006 11:14 pm (#2658 of 2969)
You're welcome, Catherine.
Laura
darien - Jul 6, 2006 1:56 am (#2659 of 2969)
I like the Machiavelli's Prince thing. Didn't someone say( Phineas Nigellus if I remember well) that a Slytherin will always choose to save his own neck. Well Snape is saving his own neck and not taking any sides other that his own,
haymoni - Jul 6, 2006 4:56 am (#2660 of 2969)
I've often thought of Severus in the same vein as Peter - Peter ran with the biggest bully on the block.
If Severus is truly riding the fence, he's waiting just like Peter did.
wynnleaf - Jul 6, 2006 7:24 am (#2661 of 2969)
My May 1, #2009 post: Nathan said Magic Words, I would assert that in narrow context Severus could be viewed as having a Machiavellian nature for example, I would argue that the teaching style of Severus Snape is congruent with the Machiavellian principle that it is better to be feared rather than loved.
wynnleaf While I quite agree with Nathan's comment above, I'd think that if Snape were trying to follow Machiavellian strategies and play LV and DD off against each other in order to take over after they fall, he failed miserably. First, he got into a situation where no one was supporting his cause; instead he was working to support the causes of two masters. He has not drawn, as far as we know, one single DE, auror, or Order member -- or any other wizard or witch -- to his personal support. Even those that did trust him and could have been possible supporters (Draco on the darker side, Order members following DD's lead on the light side), no longer trust him and would not support him.
Just how is this guy supposed to "take over" once his supposed machinations bring down both DD and LV? He has none of the powers of LV to lure others into his service and he has no power base with which to "take over" anyone.
While the emperor Severus had a power base to work from, Severus Snape has no power base whatsoever.
Honestly, if this were Machiavelli 101, I'd say he failed.
On another note...
Whitehound said: Ann says that "What Dumbledore says makes it pretty clear that it was Voldemort's interpretation of the Prophecy that caused Snape to feel remorse and come to Dumbledore."
This presupposes that Dumbledore is telling the truth, which is by no means guaranteed. In fact we're specifically told (in the conversation about the Mirror of Erised) that he doesn't always tell Harry the truth.
Actually, I think DD's comments about the Mirror are a great example of how he misdirects. Technically, what DD told Harry was correct, at least as regards the usual way the Mirror works. But he deceived Harry in that he, DD, was putting the Mirror to a different use and at some point the Mirror would show Harry what was actually occurring (the stone being in his pocket) and not solely his desire. Dumbledore does sometimes outright lie (as about the DA in OOTP), but for the most part he deceives or misdirects by using partial truth.
As regards why Snape came to DD, the reasons may well have included other things than just LV's use of the prophecy. I don't think DD directly lying about that kind of thing would be consistent with his canon character. However, I think it would be consistent with his character to tell Harry that as though it was the total truth, when in fact, it might only be a small part. That's still deceptive, of course -- telling partial truths in order to direct someone away from a greater truth is still deception, even if some might think it's not technically lying.
Mattew Bates - Jul 6, 2006 11:49 am (#2662 of 2969)
Just catching up on posts here. To add to your “saves” list, wynnleaf, Dumbledore saved Umbridge from the Centaurs in OotP.
Also, similarly to Solitaire, I think that Snape’s good deeds compound his villainy. It makes him more of a traitor. Wormtail is more despicable to us because he turned on his friends, those with whom he shared trust. Like Wormtail, Snape has gained trust of those around him by his actions, and then turned on them in their hour of need.
However, as I’m still in the OFH (out for himself) camp, I find it easy to believe that Snape would do whatever villainous or good deed he is presented with, provided he can see how it will work out best for him if he does.
Ann, I don’t think arguing with Voldey does much good for your life expectancy. He could just be buttering him up to make it more of a surprise when he stabs him in the back.
wynnleaf - Jul 6, 2006 12:16 pm (#2663 of 2969)
Edited Jul 6, 2006 1:19 pm
Also, similarly to Solitaire, I think that Snape’s good deeds compound his villainy.
Matthew, you might have misunderstood my intent in counting up the lives that Snape has saved. I was not intending to say, "look how many lives he saved. Saving lives must make him a good guy." That's not what I meant.
What I was pointing out was the literary choice that JKR made in having him save or participate in saving, so many lives. Up until the final chapters of HBP, she had not shown us any confirmed evil that Snape had actually accomplished, beyond sarcasm and insults. Sure, there was suspicion -- but canon didn't really tell us about anything he'd definitely done that ranked as "evil deeds worthy of being a DE." (We knew he'd been a DE, but not what he'd done as one.) Yet, JKR had shown Snape doing the life-saving thing on numerous occasions -- and beyond reader speculation, there isn't anything in canon to actually show or explain how those "good deeds" were actually meant for Evil Purposes.
So if Snape turns out to be evil, JKR has to somehow explain away all of those lives saved. One or two would be fairly simple -- the Evil Villian could gloat awhile and explain it. Or maybe another character could have some inside info and explain one or two of the lives saved. But the number of life saving instances is a bit too large to just explain away by one character, or a quick "this is why I saved all those lives" statement from Snape. In the end, I think it would be somewhat unbelievable if JKR has an Evil Snape that she has to explain away all the "good deeds."
If Snape is good (well, let's just say a White Hat, since he may not be good ) it's fairly easy to explain his sarcasm, insults, etc. The side of the good guys isn't necessarily made up of nice people, and adoring Harry isn't a prerequisite to following the Order.
The other things JKR has to explain, if Snape's a White Hat, are why DD trusted him (which we're already expecting to find out anyway), and what exactly was going on the Tower -- also an expected Big Part of book 7. But JKR has already set us up to expect those answers. I haven't noted any drift in her writing that's setting us up to learn why Snape saved various people's lives going all the way back to SS/PS.
wynnleaf - Jul 7, 2006 6:08 am (#2664 of 2969)
Let me add an example to my above post.
Snape saved DD's life early in HBP. We don't know why. As far as canon has told us, only DD, Snape and Harry knew that Snape had done this. Someone else may know also, but we haven't been told.
If Snape is evil, how will we ever have any explanation for why Snape saved DD's life? There's no one as far as we know -- except the reader -- who has any interest in finding out. Even before Snape AK'd DD, Harry had no interest in even wondering why Snape saved his life. Now, he certainly could care less. Snape doesn't have to explain that action to anyone on LV's side, since no one apparently knew.
If Snape is evil, this is one life-saving incident -- and a crucial one -- that I can see no plot mechanism (no one interested in why, no reason to explain to anyone) already in place for Snape's motives to ever be explained to the readers. You end up with a big hole at the end if she has Snape be evil, but can't explain why he did good things.
On the other hand, if Snape is on DD's side, then of course we already discussed many plot devices for discovering why he AK'd DD. And there's reasons why -- if Snape on the good side -- characters would want and need to know why he did it.
Maybe this more fully explains why I think it's significant that JKR has had Snape save or be instrumental in saving so many lives.
Ann - Jul 7, 2006 6:44 am (#2665 of 2969)
Matthew Bates, I think you must have either misunderstood me or confused my name with someone else's post. I don't think Snape argues with Voldemort. I think he just says, 'yes, sir, that's right, sir, I'll do exactly as you ask sir,' and then does his best to undercut whatever Voldemort is trying to accomplish. He does argue with Dumbledore, because he respects him and because they're on the same side. While it's true that Voldemort would probably kill him if he objected and Dumbledore would never do so, I think if he were really out for himself, he would treat Dumbledore just as he does Voldemort.
Solitaire - Jul 7, 2006 8:43 am (#2666 of 2969)
If Snape is evil, how will we ever have any explanation for why Snape saved DD's life?
I believe he might explain it--to Bella, for example--by saying he is still maintaining his appearance of being loyal to Dumbledore, according to Voldemort's orders. I'd say that is as good an explanation as any.
Solitaire
Choices - Jul 7, 2006 10:39 am (#2667 of 2969)
If Snape saved Dumbledore's life, does Dumbledore then owe Snape a life debt? If so, will Dumbledore perhaps leave a memory that will save Snape's life somehow?
haymoni - Jul 7, 2006 10:45 am (#2668 of 2969)
That works for me, Choices!
Severus is just too delicious a character to be "ever so evil" - even if he is evil, he deserves redeeming.
Mattew Bates - Jul 7, 2006 1:00 pm (#2669 of 2969)
Ann, I was referring to your post #2630 from July 2. All snark aside, I like where you're coming from, but I think Dumbledore would be less likely to trust a "yes man" than someone showing individuality & sprirt. VM trusts nobody, so Snape simply tries to appear useful to him. It's a bit paradoxical, but arguing with DD may have helped Snape fool him. I think he's playing them both like pianos, but each with a different tune.
haymoni - Jul 7, 2006 3:09 pm (#2670 of 2969)
Nice, Mattew.
Edited Jul 2, 2006 8:53 pm
The trouble is, I'm not sure the DE's and Co. would hate him. Well, they might, but I think they would follow him anyway if he managed to kill Voldemort and proclaim himself Dark Lord. He might have to get rid of Bella in the process, but then he'd have just proven himself more powerful than Voldemort, and the DE's would have a choice between supporting him and running to the Ministry. Presumably by that point the good side would be severely weakened, maybe recovering from a large battle, with Dumbledore gone and possibly Harry. I'm not saying this will happen or even that it's his plan, but IMO it's plausible enough that I can't keep it from nagging at the back of my mind.
Edit: Ann--I'd been thinking the parallels were more 1/7, 2/6, 3/5, but your suggestion probably makes more sense. I hope it's true about the escaped "murderer!"
sere35 - Jul 3, 2006 12:43 pm (#2632 of 2969)
I have always said that Snape is out for himself. However I dont think he has any desire to have followers or be the next dark lord. I think he is evil and has been playing both sides against the other but has been doing it for his own reasons that are not readily apparent.
Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 3, 2006 3:12 pm (#2633 of 2969)
sere35 I have thought that too. I don't even think Snape knows whose side he is on. He probably won't till the end. He is so evil. LPO
cindysuewho45 - Jul 4, 2006 1:23 am (#2634 of 2969)
Hi all, I was thinking that we may not see as much of Snape as we think at the start. Snape will be in hiding form the MoM and the Order. So Harry will not be seeing him all the time, like he did when he was at school. Snape will show up at some point, maybe helping LV or to try and make up for all that has happened. "Maybe" We will see. I do not think that Snape is a good guy. But I love the way that JKR has wrote him as well as, I love how he is played in the movies.
Ann - Jul 4, 2006 4:07 am (#2635 of 2969)
I think (continuing the parallel with Sirius I mentioned earlier), that we'll perhaps get a glimpse of Snape at the beginning. The manhunt for him will continue, and will be an important subplot interwoven with the Horcrux hunt. Harry will learn even more damning things about his backstory, will occasionally glimpse him, and will perhaps receive something that Hermione suspects was sent by him. And then he will appear towards the end of the book and play a big role in the final conflict.
And of course, I do believe he will turn out to be Dumbledore's man. I don't think any other ending is possible.
Solitaire - Jul 4, 2006 11:11 am (#2636 of 2969)
I agree, Ann, that we will see Snape at the beginning. Having killed Dumbledore, perhaps he will be welcomed by Bella and will hide out with her. Or maybe we will see him in company with Voldemort in this book. I can hardly wait to see how this whole thing plays out.
Solitaire
haymoni - Jul 4, 2006 12:10 pm (#2637 of 2969)
I think we'll see another "3rd person" chapter like "Spinner's End" with Snape in it. Or possibly a pensieve scene. Otherwise, I don't think we'll see him until the end.
wynnleaf - Jul 4, 2006 12:49 pm (#2638 of 2969)
I really hope we get to see a scene where Snape interacts with LV. I've wanted to know exactly how that looks.
In POA, we didn't see much of anything of Sirius until the end. Yes, we saw things he'd done, but we didn't actually get to see him until the climactic parts. Book 7 could do something similar.
Mediwitch - Jul 4, 2006 4:46 pm (#2639 of 2969)
Edited Jul 4, 2006 5:46 pm
Well, wynnleaf, we did catch a glimpse of Sirius in animagus form (although we didn't know it until later), the night Harry blew up Aunt Marge and left Privet Drive. We really didn't see any action involving Sirius, but we did have that brief appearance.
I agree - I'd LOVE to see a scene with Snape and Voldemort interacting.
Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 4, 2006 6:13 pm (#2640 of 2969)
It would be interesting a scene with Snape and Voldemort. I wonder if Snape's eyes would have the empty, hollow look. Or would they be glittering with emotion? LPO
Catherine - Jul 4, 2006 6:50 pm (#2641 of 2969)
Interesting.
I thought Snape's eyes were black and cold and empty of emotion.
If they prove different, please let me know.
whitehound - Jul 4, 2006 7:21 pm (#2642 of 2969)
Snape's eyes are bound to be black most of the time when Harry sees him, since he is a dark-eyed man working in low light (the dungeons), and dark-eyed people don't tend to see well in the dark. His pupils will be fully expanded most of the time.
Other than that - JK repeatedly describes Snape as having cold, empty, dead-looking eyes, and I strongly suspect she knows that this dead look is called Thousand Mile Stare and is a known and common symptom of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder.
I don't know whether this has been raised before - I don't have time to read through the back posts, so somebody tell me and knock it on the head if you've already been through it. But -
We know there's something odd about the business with Snape telling Voldemort about the prophecy. It *could* just be sloppy writing, but certainly it sounds, both from the recording of the prophecy and from Sybill's account, as if that prophecy was made all in one piece, it wasn't interrupted by Snape being found listening at the door. It sounds as though he was caught after Sybyll had finished - and yet Dumbledore says Snape only gave Voldie half the prophecy.
Could it be that Snape was *already* Dumbledore's agent, and gave Voldie part of the prophecy on DD's orders? Since DD himself doesn't believe in prophecy he might have thought it was a harmless enough piece of information, which would entrench Snape in Voldie's good graces without telling him anything very useful - and then been surprized when two boys whose parents had thrice defied Voldie really were born at the end of July.
That would then raise the question of what, if it wasn't the threat to the Potters, caused Snape to desert Voldie and rejoin DD. But maybe nothing did. Maybe the reason DD trusts Snape so completely is because Snape has been DD's man all along, and only ever joined the Death Eaters as the Order's agent.
Of course, DD told the Wizengamot that Snape was a Death Eater who deserted Voldie - but that might have been a lie. We know Voldie and his inner circle know DD *thinks* Snape is his man, so hearing DD say Snape had deserted the Death Eaters and started working for him would jsut make them think Snape had done a very good job of convincing DD. But the information that DD had put him up to joining Voldie in the first place could get him killed.
Ann - Jul 4, 2006 8:17 pm (#2643 of 2969)
Edited Jul 4, 2006 9:18 pm
Whitehound, I think the way JKR had Dumbledore describe the eavesdropping at first is what's confusing things. He said (OotP) that a Death Eater heard the first part of the prophecy, but was detected and thrown out. He didn't mention a detail of the incident that we learn in HBP: the door to the room was opened in between so that the person who discovered the eavesdropper could tell the occupants that he (Snape) had been listening. Then he threw Snape out.
So the prophecy was continuous, but the second half ("And the Dark Lord shall mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not... And either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives") occurs while Snape is having a conversation with the discoverer. ("Hey! You there! You ought to be ashamed of yourself, listening at keyholes. This is a respectable inn! My guests deserve their privacy!" "You have... misunderstood, old man. I was simply tying my shoe." "Sure you were, mate. You're banned from the Hog's Head 'til further notice. Here... Excuse me, miss, but I thought you ought to know that this fellow has been listening at your keyhole. Oh! Hello, Albus! Anyway, I've got to throw this bloke out now.") It's easy to imagine that Snape was distracted by being discovered during the few seconds it took Sibyll to finish making the prophecy, so that when the door opened, she was already herself again.
What Dumbledore says makes it pretty clear that it was Voldemort's interpretation of the Prophecy that caused Snape to feel remorse and come to Dumbledore. So his conversion has to happen after he overhears the Prophecy (in Fall 1980, since that's when Trelawney was hired)--but I don't think it was much after.
Solitaire - Jul 4, 2006 8:18 pm (#2644 of 2969)
Well, Snape's eyes glittered in Chapter 36 of GoF:
"Severus," said Dumbledore, turning to Snape, "you know what I must ask you to do. If you are ready . . . if you are prepared ..."
"I am," said Snape.
He looked slightly paler than usual, and his cold, black eyes glittered strangely.
"Then good luck," said Dumbledore, and he watched, with a trace of apprehension on his face, as Snape swept wordlessly after Sirius.
Solitaire
Laura W - Jul 5, 2006 12:16 am (#2645 of 2969)
Edited Jul 5, 2006 1:18 am
"I thought Snape's eyes were black and cold and empty of emotion."
You're right, of course, Catherine. Most of the time they are described this way.
"If they prove different, please let me know."
From PoA:
(p. 209, Raincoast), " 'How extraordinarily like your father you are, Potter,' Snape said suddenly, his eyes glinting."
(p. 210, Raincoast), "Harry was suddenly on his feet. ... He didn't care that Snape's face had gone rigid, the black eyes flashing dangerously."
(p. 263, Raincoast), "Snape was slightly breathless, but his face was full of suppressed triumph. 'You're wondering, perhaps, how I knew you were here?' he said, his eyes glittering."
(p. 263, Raincoast), " 'Two more for Azkaban tonight,' said Snape, his eyes now gleaming fanatically."
(p. 264, Raincoast), "But there was a mad glint in Snape's eye that Harry had never seen before."
Hmm, Severus' eyes seem to have taken on a different personality in PoA than their usual cold, lifeless, dark-tunnel one.
Laura
Saracene - Jul 5, 2006 2:57 am (#2646 of 2969)
I agree that seeing some direct interaction between Snape and Voldemort would be awesome. I'm really curious what Snape is like around him.
I also keep my fingers crossed for the flashback to when Snape first approached Dumbledore back in the first war. Now that must have been one heck of an interesting conversation!
I've seen a few theories suggesting that Snape has been Dumbledore's man all along, but I very much doubt it. That would rob his character of complexity to a point and IMO it just makes for a much more powerful story if Snape had once truly been on the bad side and then repented.
Catherine - Jul 5, 2006 3:53 am (#2647 of 2969)
Hmm, Severus' eyes seem to have taken on a different personality in PoA than their usual cold, lifeless, dark-tunnel one. --Laura
Excellent sleuthing, Laura! I thank you.
haymoni - Jul 5, 2006 4:52 am (#2648 of 2969)
Yes - Snape with the Dark Lord - if he is closing his mind, that must take great effort vs. Voldy.
Interesting. I wonder if Voldy speaks to Snape like he does the other Death Eaters? Condescending. Mmmm...
wynnleaf - Jul 5, 2006 6:17 am (#2649 of 2969)
Edited Jul 5, 2006 7:20 am
Whitehound,
Ann gave a good summary of many of our thoughts regarding that particular problem (whether or not Snape heard the whole prophecy, his being thrown out, and Trelawney seeing him at the door).
I have read the Red Hen (at redhen-publications.com) essay where she believes that Trelawney's seeing Snape at the door is incompatible with DD's comments that he didn't hear the whole prophecy and was thrown out of the building. I wrote to her and went over the same basic explanation that Ann gave. She (Red Hen) seemed to think that DD had said that Snape was thrown out before the prophecy was completed, but that's not quite correct. DD simply said that the eavesdropper had been interrupted and was thrown out, but didn't get specific as to exactly when he was ejected from the building.
Once you envision the scene as Ann described, it's easy to see how Snape could simply have been unable to listen to the second half of the prophecy, as he was busy trying to deal with Alberforth. Then as Trelawney ends the prophecy, DD either hears Alberforth and Snape arguing in the corridor and opens the door, or Alberforth opened the door to alert DD that Snape had been eavesdropping. Anyway, Trelawney then saw Snape before Alberforth removed him.
For those that haven't read Red Hen's comments, she thought that DD must have been intentionally deceptive when he first told Harry that someone (Snape) had heard only half the prophecy and taken it to LV. She feels that since Snape must have heard the whole prophecy, he must have never been truly on LV's side, or he'd have given him the whole prophecy. Her theory is that Snape became a DE as a spy for DD.
I agree with many of the Red Hen's theories and her essays which, even if you don't agree, are fascinating and well thought through. But I don't agree with this particular theory.
Further, I agree with Saracene above. Snape's becoming a DE and then turning away from LV is a pretty powerful and complex part of the character. Not that other scenarios couldn't be just as powerful, but I do think the story needed a person who had gone toward LV and then turned away. (Regulas hardly counts since he's dead and not really a part of the story, even if he did write that note.)
Ann - Jul 5, 2006 7:25 am (#2650 of 2969)
Edited Jul 5, 2006 8:27 am
Wynnleaf, thanks for the support--though I think you were actually the first to formulate this. Point of fact, however: it's never been confirmed that it was Aberforth that caught Snape. (I think it almost certainly was, though.)
And I agree with you about Red Hen and her misguidedness on this particular question. After all, Dumbledore does say that Snape's greatest regret is giving Voldemort the part of the prophecy he heard. If he'd done so on Dumbledore's orders he would not be responsible for the decision. Dumbledore would never be so cowardly as to tell Harry that "Professor Snape made a terrible mistake" if the decision had been his own. And Dumbledore says specifically that when Snape heard the prophecy he was "still in Lord Voldemort's employ." He's not now, although he's pretending to be; that implies a change of loyalties. To put so much stress on the assumption that discovered and thrown out implies a continuous motion seems wrong-headed. (She also builds her entire timeline around Bellatrix's birthdate, as reported by a single person who saw it on the Black family tree at the auction preview, which I think is also wrong, especially given JKR's notorious sloppiness about numbers and birthdays anyway.) I love her "Second Guessing" essay, though.
Potter Ace - Jul 5, 2006 8:48 am (#2651 of 2969)
I read on another fan site that Harry will be using the two-way mirror in book 7. Does anybody think that Snape will be the person on the other end? Assuming that Snape is a good guy, how else do you suppose that he communicate with Harry to explain why he did what he did. This would give him the perfect opportunity to explain while not having to make a personal appearance.
Surely if he is on the good side, he will have to have another advocate on his side with DD gone, who better than Harry?
HungarianHorntail11 - Jul 5, 2006 9:18 am (#2652 of 2969)
Snape does not strike me as the "explaining oneself" type. I think he lets his actions speak for themselves and leaves others to figure it out. Though he does seem to relish being respected, that is as far as it seems to go. Furthermore, he only seems to be concerned with having the respect of those whom he deems superiors. If that was not the case, I don't think he'd put his neck on the line on DD's request as DD claims he had done.
Die Zimtzicke - Jul 5, 2006 10:11 am (#2653 of 2969)
I still think it is quite possible that Snape only gave Voldemort half of the prophecy.
It does say that:
"the eavesdropper was detected only a short way into the prophecy and thrown from the building"
But that doesn't add up when you think about the fact that Trelawney knew Snape was there, and she doesn't know what she doing when she makes a prophecy. If what Dumbledore said there was true, I still don't see how she could know it was Snape who was eavesdropping. I can't see why Dumbledore woukd tell her, unless it was a plus when he was trying to get her to Hogwarts, to keep her safe at that point. That's pretty much why she got the job. (It wasn't for ther Divination talent.) That might have backfired, though, when Snape started working there. She could have wondered why Dumbledore wanted her there, and then let Snape come work there, too.
Aren't we ALL wondering that one? LOL!
But maybe Snape had to give Voldmeort something, gave him half a prophecy, and it turned out to be a mistake to do that. But then why does he say it was Voldemort who wanted him to take the Hogwarts job? He can't be lying about that. It would be too easy for Bella to go back and ask Voldemort if it were true. It woudl be great to kow who thought up the idea of Snape working at Hogwarts first..Voldemort, Dumbledore or Snape himself.
Choices - Jul 5, 2006 10:24 am (#2654 of 2969)
I would love to see Snape face off with Voldemort. I was somewhat embarrassed for Lucius Malfoy when he faced Voldemort in the graveyard. Lucius is so arrogant and snobby that it was sort of painful to see him have to grovel before his "master" - not so much painful for me, but for him. Don't get me wrong, he deserved it. LOL
HungarianHorntail11 - Jul 5, 2006 10:37 am (#2655 of 2969)
Edited Jul 5, 2006 11:47 am
Die, from the reading, I gather that Trelawney was not aware that she was in danger. Snape may have even told Big V that some woman gave a prophecy and later put two and two together once Trelawney was hired.
If DD opened the door after Trelawney finished the prophecy, she would have been in a conscious state and may even have approached the door after DD to see what the fuss was about. Whoever followed Snape up the stairs caught him before she was through, but it was only seconds.
What I wonder is whether Snape told Big V that he only heard part of it, or whether he was afraid to and just gave him what he had without an explanation. Perhaps even he did not know he hadn't heard it in its entirety.
Choices, you are truly a kind hearted soul.
Just thought I'd bring this to the thread, maybe we can pick through it to figure out what Snape did afterward:
Well, it does seem as though Snape knew Big V had targeted all three Potters and it is possible that there was enough time for DD to send Snape to invoke some form of potions protection. If he and Lily were classmates, she would most likely trust him (James would have to be out of the way, though, because he certainly would not). Snape would be taking quite a chance at getting caught by Big V (or his spies) at the Potters' trying to help. That would explain DD's vouching for Snape at the trial in the Pensieve.
My point for bringing this post here is to solidify why DD trusts him.
rambkowalczyk - Jul 5, 2006 5:17 pm (#2656 of 2969)
But that doesn't make any sense at all rambkowalczyk. If he's evil, he's either out for Voldemort or for himself. If he's for Voldemort, he wouldn't help Harry with the Horcruxes. If he's for himself, why in heaven's name has he spent fifteen years as a much-hated school teacher? There are many more effective ways to build up a following than alienating the generation that will be fighting with our against you. By being Dumbledore's employee all these years (perhaps under duress, but he has remained at Hogwarts) and by being nasty to everyone who isn't a Slytherin, Snape has surrendered any hope of recruiting followers. The DE wannabes will hate him for turning on Voldemort; the others will hate him for favoring the DE wannabes. It's simply not good politics. Ann
Ann is responding to a theory I read in the Mugglenet Editorials which if nothing else implies that JKR is familiar with Machiavelli. To summarize, Niccolo Machiavelli wrote a book called "The Prince". At various points in book 6, the author of the Potion book scribblings is referred to as the Prince. The book is an advice, or how-to manual on how to get and keep power. Maybe somewhat similar to the Slytherin ideal on using any means available to get power.
Machiavelli also gives as an example of using fear and cunning a Roman general who made himself emperor. This Roman general was named Severus, described with the fierceness of a lion and the craft of a fox. (Snape can be seen as fierce and cruel, though the lion analogy may not work, but Bella did kill a fox on the way to Spinner's end).
This general, Severus was able to dispose of the current Emperor Julianus,(no particular parallel here) but to maintain this position he still had two other generals to contend with: Niger and Albinus. (Niger means black and Albinus means white). He offered a joint position of Emperor to Albinus so that Albinus would leave him alone. After he defeated Niger, he then killed Albinus. (The author of this theory, B J Texan, says Snape lead Voldemort to his death by giving him the prophecy, then he killed Albus Dumbledore).
The point I had wanted to make was that the instances where it seemed that Snape was following Dumbledore's orders could be just as easily explained by assuming Snape has this long range plan to obtain power.
Now to return to Ann's arguments. I'm stating that under this theory Snape is in it for himself not Voldemort. He works at Hogwarts, because he knows that Voldemort wasn't fully defeated by Harry. So he stays at Hogwarts because it's the best course of action. He knows that Dumbledore will help Harry when he gets older to defeat Voldemort. He stays there acting as Dumbledore's right hand man. He protects Harry not because Dumbledore wants him to but because he knows Harry is the only one who can defeat the dark lord,and he stays there because that is where the dark lord expected him to be.
Snape's following would be the death Eater's who are disillusioned with Voldemort. The Malfoy's come to mind. I'm sure there are others as well.
As far as it not being good politics, I tend to agree with Ann. Just because Snape is trying to obtain power isn't proof that he will get it or keep it. But according to Machiavelli this Severus general managed to not come to a bad end.
whitehound - Jul 5, 2006 5:28 pm (#2657 of 2969)
Edited Jul 5, 2006 6:34 pm
Ann says that "What Dumbledore says makes it pretty clear that it was Voldemort's interpretation of the Prophecy that caused Snape to feel remorse and come to Dumbledore."
This presupposes that Dumbledore is telling the truth, which is by no means guaranteed. In fact we're specifically told (in the conversation about the Mirror of Erised) that he doesn't always tell Harry the truth.
Laura W - Jul 5, 2006 11:14 pm (#2658 of 2969)
You're welcome, Catherine.
Laura
darien - Jul 6, 2006 1:56 am (#2659 of 2969)
I like the Machiavelli's Prince thing. Didn't someone say( Phineas Nigellus if I remember well) that a Slytherin will always choose to save his own neck. Well Snape is saving his own neck and not taking any sides other that his own,
haymoni - Jul 6, 2006 4:56 am (#2660 of 2969)
I've often thought of Severus in the same vein as Peter - Peter ran with the biggest bully on the block.
If Severus is truly riding the fence, he's waiting just like Peter did.
wynnleaf - Jul 6, 2006 7:24 am (#2661 of 2969)
My May 1, #2009 post: Nathan said Magic Words, I would assert that in narrow context Severus could be viewed as having a Machiavellian nature for example, I would argue that the teaching style of Severus Snape is congruent with the Machiavellian principle that it is better to be feared rather than loved.
wynnleaf While I quite agree with Nathan's comment above, I'd think that if Snape were trying to follow Machiavellian strategies and play LV and DD off against each other in order to take over after they fall, he failed miserably. First, he got into a situation where no one was supporting his cause; instead he was working to support the causes of two masters. He has not drawn, as far as we know, one single DE, auror, or Order member -- or any other wizard or witch -- to his personal support. Even those that did trust him and could have been possible supporters (Draco on the darker side, Order members following DD's lead on the light side), no longer trust him and would not support him.
Just how is this guy supposed to "take over" once his supposed machinations bring down both DD and LV? He has none of the powers of LV to lure others into his service and he has no power base with which to "take over" anyone.
While the emperor Severus had a power base to work from, Severus Snape has no power base whatsoever.
Honestly, if this were Machiavelli 101, I'd say he failed.
On another note...
Whitehound said: Ann says that "What Dumbledore says makes it pretty clear that it was Voldemort's interpretation of the Prophecy that caused Snape to feel remorse and come to Dumbledore."
This presupposes that Dumbledore is telling the truth, which is by no means guaranteed. In fact we're specifically told (in the conversation about the Mirror of Erised) that he doesn't always tell Harry the truth.
Actually, I think DD's comments about the Mirror are a great example of how he misdirects. Technically, what DD told Harry was correct, at least as regards the usual way the Mirror works. But he deceived Harry in that he, DD, was putting the Mirror to a different use and at some point the Mirror would show Harry what was actually occurring (the stone being in his pocket) and not solely his desire. Dumbledore does sometimes outright lie (as about the DA in OOTP), but for the most part he deceives or misdirects by using partial truth.
As regards why Snape came to DD, the reasons may well have included other things than just LV's use of the prophecy. I don't think DD directly lying about that kind of thing would be consistent with his canon character. However, I think it would be consistent with his character to tell Harry that as though it was the total truth, when in fact, it might only be a small part. That's still deceptive, of course -- telling partial truths in order to direct someone away from a greater truth is still deception, even if some might think it's not technically lying.
Mattew Bates - Jul 6, 2006 11:49 am (#2662 of 2969)
Just catching up on posts here. To add to your “saves” list, wynnleaf, Dumbledore saved Umbridge from the Centaurs in OotP.
Also, similarly to Solitaire, I think that Snape’s good deeds compound his villainy. It makes him more of a traitor. Wormtail is more despicable to us because he turned on his friends, those with whom he shared trust. Like Wormtail, Snape has gained trust of those around him by his actions, and then turned on them in their hour of need.
However, as I’m still in the OFH (out for himself) camp, I find it easy to believe that Snape would do whatever villainous or good deed he is presented with, provided he can see how it will work out best for him if he does.
Ann, I don’t think arguing with Voldey does much good for your life expectancy. He could just be buttering him up to make it more of a surprise when he stabs him in the back.
wynnleaf - Jul 6, 2006 12:16 pm (#2663 of 2969)
Edited Jul 6, 2006 1:19 pm
Also, similarly to Solitaire, I think that Snape’s good deeds compound his villainy.
Matthew, you might have misunderstood my intent in counting up the lives that Snape has saved. I was not intending to say, "look how many lives he saved. Saving lives must make him a good guy." That's not what I meant.
What I was pointing out was the literary choice that JKR made in having him save or participate in saving, so many lives. Up until the final chapters of HBP, she had not shown us any confirmed evil that Snape had actually accomplished, beyond sarcasm and insults. Sure, there was suspicion -- but canon didn't really tell us about anything he'd definitely done that ranked as "evil deeds worthy of being a DE." (We knew he'd been a DE, but not what he'd done as one.) Yet, JKR had shown Snape doing the life-saving thing on numerous occasions -- and beyond reader speculation, there isn't anything in canon to actually show or explain how those "good deeds" were actually meant for Evil Purposes.
So if Snape turns out to be evil, JKR has to somehow explain away all of those lives saved. One or two would be fairly simple -- the Evil Villian could gloat awhile and explain it. Or maybe another character could have some inside info and explain one or two of the lives saved. But the number of life saving instances is a bit too large to just explain away by one character, or a quick "this is why I saved all those lives" statement from Snape. In the end, I think it would be somewhat unbelievable if JKR has an Evil Snape that she has to explain away all the "good deeds."
If Snape is good (well, let's just say a White Hat, since he may not be good ) it's fairly easy to explain his sarcasm, insults, etc. The side of the good guys isn't necessarily made up of nice people, and adoring Harry isn't a prerequisite to following the Order.
The other things JKR has to explain, if Snape's a White Hat, are why DD trusted him (which we're already expecting to find out anyway), and what exactly was going on the Tower -- also an expected Big Part of book 7. But JKR has already set us up to expect those answers. I haven't noted any drift in her writing that's setting us up to learn why Snape saved various people's lives going all the way back to SS/PS.
wynnleaf - Jul 7, 2006 6:08 am (#2664 of 2969)
Let me add an example to my above post.
Snape saved DD's life early in HBP. We don't know why. As far as canon has told us, only DD, Snape and Harry knew that Snape had done this. Someone else may know also, but we haven't been told.
If Snape is evil, how will we ever have any explanation for why Snape saved DD's life? There's no one as far as we know -- except the reader -- who has any interest in finding out. Even before Snape AK'd DD, Harry had no interest in even wondering why Snape saved his life. Now, he certainly could care less. Snape doesn't have to explain that action to anyone on LV's side, since no one apparently knew.
If Snape is evil, this is one life-saving incident -- and a crucial one -- that I can see no plot mechanism (no one interested in why, no reason to explain to anyone) already in place for Snape's motives to ever be explained to the readers. You end up with a big hole at the end if she has Snape be evil, but can't explain why he did good things.
On the other hand, if Snape is on DD's side, then of course we already discussed many plot devices for discovering why he AK'd DD. And there's reasons why -- if Snape on the good side -- characters would want and need to know why he did it.
Maybe this more fully explains why I think it's significant that JKR has had Snape save or be instrumental in saving so many lives.
Ann - Jul 7, 2006 6:44 am (#2665 of 2969)
Matthew Bates, I think you must have either misunderstood me or confused my name with someone else's post. I don't think Snape argues with Voldemort. I think he just says, 'yes, sir, that's right, sir, I'll do exactly as you ask sir,' and then does his best to undercut whatever Voldemort is trying to accomplish. He does argue with Dumbledore, because he respects him and because they're on the same side. While it's true that Voldemort would probably kill him if he objected and Dumbledore would never do so, I think if he were really out for himself, he would treat Dumbledore just as he does Voldemort.
Solitaire - Jul 7, 2006 8:43 am (#2666 of 2969)
If Snape is evil, how will we ever have any explanation for why Snape saved DD's life?
I believe he might explain it--to Bella, for example--by saying he is still maintaining his appearance of being loyal to Dumbledore, according to Voldemort's orders. I'd say that is as good an explanation as any.
Solitaire
Choices - Jul 7, 2006 10:39 am (#2667 of 2969)
If Snape saved Dumbledore's life, does Dumbledore then owe Snape a life debt? If so, will Dumbledore perhaps leave a memory that will save Snape's life somehow?
haymoni - Jul 7, 2006 10:45 am (#2668 of 2969)
That works for me, Choices!
Severus is just too delicious a character to be "ever so evil" - even if he is evil, he deserves redeeming.
Mattew Bates - Jul 7, 2006 1:00 pm (#2669 of 2969)
Ann, I was referring to your post #2630 from July 2. All snark aside, I like where you're coming from, but I think Dumbledore would be less likely to trust a "yes man" than someone showing individuality & sprirt. VM trusts nobody, so Snape simply tries to appear useful to him. It's a bit paradoxical, but arguing with DD may have helped Snape fool him. I think he's playing them both like pianos, but each with a different tune.
haymoni - Jul 7, 2006 3:09 pm (#2670 of 2969)
Nice, Mattew.
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rambkowalczyk - Jul 7, 2006 3:39 pm (#2671 of 2969)
If Snape is evil, how will we ever have any explanation for why Snape saved DD's life? wynnleaf
Perhaps he knew that Dumbledore was going to tell Harry about the horcruxes and Tom's background and figured that it would be better if Harry had all the information at his disposal. (It's possible that Dumbledore hasn't told Snape much about Voldemort's background.) He didn't want to kill Dumbledore before Harry's training was complete.
The main reason I brought up the Machiavelli thing is that it seems to be a deliberate reference by JKR. If Snape isn't in it for himself (I do tend to agree-or is it want to in spite of overwhelming evidence- with Wynnleaf and Ann in their previous objections). Do you think the similarities are just coincidences?
Another thing I find interesting is that we don't see any of Snape's memories of Voldemort. Surely there must be some that further define the Dark Lord.
wynnleaf - Jul 7, 2006 4:37 pm (#2672 of 2969)
Edited Jul 7, 2006 6:00 pm
If Snape is evil, how will we ever have any explanation for why Snape saved DD's life?
I believe he might explain it--to Bella, for example--by saying he is still maintaining his appearance of being loyal to Dumbledore, according to Voldemort's orders. I'd say that is as good an explanation as any.
Solitaire, I don't think so (edit: not the explanation part, but that he'd give it to Bella or anyone). Bella has no idea Snape saved DD's life. As far as we know, no one does other than Harry and Harry certainly isn't wondering why Snape has saved anyone's life. In other words, there isn't any character that's going to ask Snape why he saved anyone's life -- DD's in the case of my example. So Snape has no reason to be telling anyone. That's why I'm saying if Snape's evil there's no device hinted at yet through which JKR can explain Snape's actions. She hasn't left us with anyone who wants to know -- except the readers.
Choices, I bet Snape already owed DD a huge amount. DD kept him out of Azkaban for one thing.
rambkowalczyk, the reason I brought up the "why Snape saved DD" isn't to figure out the "why" part. We can theorize all sorts of reasons. The problem is that I don't see how (if Snape's evil) we'll ever find out in canon -- either about DD or the other lives saved. There's no character that is in the position of either knowing Snape saved lives, or wanting to know why. So there's no particular plot device hinted at yet through which JKR could tell the readers why Snape had saved DD's or other's lives.
On the Machievelli thing. Back when we first discussed this, I read the Mugglenet article and then looked up as much of the history I could find on the Roman Severus, Albinus, and others. Once I really started to read the history, it didn't particularly line up to the LV, DD, and Severus situation as we know it. Even just on the surface, HP Severus is in the weakest position for taking power, compared to the Roman one. But there's a lot of other differences.
Here's a quote of mine from #2005 on this thread.
As regards Lucius Septimius Severus, I suggest reading up on his life. It was really all quite complicated and the whole thing with Clodius Albinus is really nothing like the JKR characters. Albinus, for instance, was placed by Severus in a junior position as a governor of sorts with the understanding that he'd be Severus' successor. At about the same time Niger was setting himself up as emperor although Severus was also acclaimed emperor in Rome. These were basically two rivals that were clearly going to fight for the right to be emperor. Once Niger was defeated Severus had more secure power, and declared his own son his successor. Seems natural to me, but Albinus took offence (he was probably meant to take offense), and Albinus moved on Rome to fight Severus -- note: Albinus moved on Rome. A war started which Severus eventually won. Albinus probably committed suicide, although he may have been murdered (not by Severus).
Sure "Severus" "Albinus" and "Niger" (black, aka dark???), bear a resemblence to Albus, the Dark Lord, and Severus. But the stories don't seem much alike, especially with Albinus being subordinate to Severus. And there was never any question about Severus serving either Niger or Albinus, more like the opposite.
As to whether or not it's coincidental -- no. Here's a further quote from my #2009 post on that subject.
In our search for the hidden clues with which to figure out the future of the plot, there are some readers who hope to find some hidden pattern lurking in a game, a philosophy, history, other literature, where they will find JKR's plans systematically reflecting that earlier pattern. My guess is that in reality, JKR uses chess, alchemy, history, religious themes, literary themes, myth, and yes, even Machiavelli and the Severus and Albinus of history to piece together her own plot. But just because we can see glimmers of her sources doesn't mean that her plots will follow any of the source material so directly that we can predict either her plots or chara
Choices - Jul 7, 2006 5:05 pm (#2673 of 2969)
Wynnleaf - "Choices, I bet Snape already owed DD a huge amount. DD kept him out of Azkaban for one thing."
Good point!
Ann - Jul 7, 2006 5:52 pm (#2674 of 2969)
Edited Jul 7, 2006 6:54 pm
wynnleaf: "Sure "Severus" "Albinus" and "Niger" (black, aka dark???), bear a resemblence to Albus, the Dark Lord, and Severus. But the stories don't seem much alike, especially with Albinus being subordinate to Severus. And there was never any question about Severus serving either Niger or Albinus, more like the opposite."
And you'd think that Niger would be Sirius (or Regulus?). Actually it seems much more likely to me that JKR chose the name Albus because it means white rather than because it resembles Albinus. She's pretty careful with names, and if she was going to echo an ancient situation, she would presumably echo it. After all, when she chose that name, she was writing a children's book that she wasn't sure would ever be published. The odds of the kids reading Machiavelli or Roman history is pretty tiny, so why bother disguising the name? She didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition that has descended on her since.
Good writers may use older stories or histories as their starting point, but then they do their own thing with them. I think she's far more likely to consciously use a pattern of structural frameworks (like the 1/5-2/6-3/7 pattern I wrote about earlier) than make her story an allegorical recreation of a not very compelling bit of Roman history.
Snape may well be out for Snape, but I would venture to say that the role of charismatic leader of a Dark hoard is one that he knows is well beyond his capacity. (The man is decidedly not stupid.) Not to mention the fact that most of the hoard consists of annoyingly thick people, and I don't see him wanting to spend a lot of time with them. On the other hand, he is the consummate fanatical follower. He followed Voldemort in his youth, until Voldemort went after Lily. He's still following Dumbledore's instructions, just as Harry is.
Die Zimtzicke - Jul 7, 2006 7:14 pm (#2675 of 2969)
Speaking of Snape's memories, I still cannot beleive that his WORST memory was of some petty childhood slight. He must have seen some heavy things go down as a death eater.
But then Jo is pretty loose with the word worst. Remember when Ron said that the bad Quidditch game was the worst he ever felt, and Harry said, "Join the club"?
rambkowalczyk - Jul 7, 2006 7:30 pm (#2676 of 2969)
Wynnleaf, thanks for the reality check on Machiavelli, I will admit I never read it.
I still think the choice of names is somewhat deliberate. It doesn't necessarily mean Snape is out for himself but it might be a clue to his personality.
The Mugglenet author used the clues that Ron and Hermione referred to him as the prince. It could simply mean like Harry thought: If Voldemort is Lord then Snape is a prince and that JKR was not making a reference to Machiavelli. But in book 6, Snape is not a prince, he is half a prince, so maybe it means he is only halfway in it for himself. The other half might be on Dumbledore's side.
wynnleaf - Jul 7, 2006 8:54 pm (#2677 of 2969)
Edited Jul 7, 2006 9:56 pm
Ann,
Hey, Ann, I think you usually understand my admittedly convoluted posts fairly well, but I think you must have missed my meaning this time. Way back around posts number 2005 and 2009 (the ones I quoted myself on), I had been basically saying that JKR might have got the name Severus from the Roman Severus, as well as possibly picking Albus from Albinus' name. Or, if she had known long since about the historical characters, she may have thought of Albinus as soon as she came up with the name "Albus" and from there remembered the name Severus. But overall, I didn't think there was much similarity between the historical figures and JKR's characters.
I certainly don't think Niger would be Sirius or anything like that and was trying to say that the characters in her books aren't much like the historical characters situations at all.
I think she's far more likely to consciously use a pattern of structural frameworks (like the 1/5-2/6-3/7 pattern I wrote about earlier) than make her story an allegorical recreation of a not very compelling bit of Roman history.
I agree with you. I'd say, the better place to look for patterns is within her own books -- not in how they pattern other stories, games, or systems of thought. That's not to say she doesn't use other ideas. I think she's been fairly obviously using alchemical ideas. But I think we go too far if we began to assume that her plots are bound to particular outside systems not of her creation.
Ann - Jul 8, 2006 2:08 am (#2678 of 2969)
wynnleaf, I understood you. I was just being obscure myself. (I knew what I meant, after all!) A little more explicitly put: my point about Niger = Black was that such a parallel is at least as obvious as Niger = Dark Lord or Albinius = Albus. If Snape had had a more direct hand in Sirius's death, we could be saying Aha! about a very different parallel taken from the same group of characters. But he didn't, so we don't. Human beings look for patterns and connections, and often see them when they aren't even there; so if one can come up with an equally strong and entirely different pattern in the same evidence, our first pattern is quite possibly imaginary.
Okay, so that's not very clear either. It's very early--my cat woke me by knocking a pile of books off the headboard and onto my head, which may explain something, too. Must... make... coffee....
journeymom - Jul 8, 2006 11:41 am (#2679 of 2969)
Edited Jul 8, 2006 12:42 pm
Help! I'm reading a story; Snape is NOT Draco Malfoy's godfather in canon is he? That's been a feature in fanfic so often I'm starting to doubt myself. No where does JKR ever say Snape is Draco's godfather, right?
Choices - Jul 8, 2006 12:01 pm (#2680 of 2969)
Right! Remember, that "fic" in Fanfic stands for fiction. LOL
haymoni - Jul 8, 2006 6:56 pm (#2681 of 2969)
That's why I don't read fan fiction - It's hard enough to keep the REAL story straight! Movie contamination is bad enough!
wynnleaf - Jul 8, 2006 7:55 pm (#2682 of 2969)
Has there ever been a thread about fan fiction? I don't mean about particular stories. I've been interested in 1. Insight we get from trends in fan fics (such as why so many evil-DD stories, or insights gained when many writers try to make sense of the characters while staying true to canon) and 2. Misinformation or fan "legends" that get perpetuated by fan fic stories -- like Snape being Draco's godfather.
Dobby Socks - Jul 9, 2006 6:59 am (#2683 of 2969)
Edited Jul 9, 2006 8:02 am
wynnleaf,
If there hasn’t been one, I think that would be a great idea. There are many Snape “standards” (for lack of a better word – I’m tired) in fan fiction which fall into 3 categories: 1.) based in canon 2.) no basis in canon whatsoever 3.) can be extrapolated from canon depending on the author’s reading of Snape’s character. I wonder how much FF actually influences the fans who read it. Why people feel such a strong need to write it is another good question.
Even though I swore I’d never read it (as Haymoni says, movie contamination is bad enough,) I actually feel that there are certain authors who’ve expanded my insight into some canon concepts. And there are some that have raised questions that haven’t been fully answered in canon and would make for interesting discussions. Since beginning to read FF, I’ve become quite interested in how the Dark Arts are defined (apart from the Unforgiveables.) Is there a strict, uncrossable line between light and dark, or can the lesser dark spells and charms vary in darkness dependent on the motivation of the caster, on what end they achieve?
I also read a Red Hen essay in which she was labeling prophecies as a Dark Art because they are “wild magic,” uncontrolled (if I’m remembering correctly). Which is what child wizards do before they are schooled. Hmm.
Anyway, I like the first set of points you raised, especially how or if we can gain insight into a character through authors of FF trying to do the same. If it’s based in canon, it’s basically what we are trying to do here when we examine a character. Simply a different format. I’d like to see a thread on this.
EDIT: BTW, has there ever been a thread on what defines the Dark Arts?
wynnleaf - Jul 9, 2006 7:18 am (#2684 of 2969)
How do you start a thread? Sorry -- off topic, but where do I find out?
Mediwitch - Jul 9, 2006 7:19 am (#2685 of 2969)
wynnleaf, there is actually a forum called "Harry Potter Lexicon Fan Fiction". Although I have visited briefly, I don't think any of the threads there meet your criteria.
To come back to Snape...I agree with Dobby Socks, in the bit of FF I have read, Snape is one character who varies significantly from author to author.
Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 9, 2006 7:40 am (#2686 of 2969)
Mediwitch LOL Dobby Socks! LPO
Choices - Jul 9, 2006 8:52 am (#2687 of 2969)
Edited Jul 9, 2006 9:54 am
I am like Haymoni in that I do not read fanfic. Not only does it add to the confusion of facts (in my mind), like the movies do, but I find it disrespects the characters in that it portrays them with attitudes and in situations that JKR never intended. I simply do not even want to imagine these beloved characters in ways that are not appropriate or faithful to the HP story. Of all the characters in the books, I think Snape has been corrupted the most in fanfic and I find the majority of it repugnant.
Ann - Jul 9, 2006 10:30 am (#2688 of 2969)
Edited Jul 9, 2006 11:35 am
I don't know. I think, for those of us who've read the books over and over, it's not such a danger that we'll lose track of what's canon and what isn't. It is mostly people who have read the books through once and then lost themselves in romantic stories (mostly the favorite HG/SS pairing) that lose track of what's actually in the books. (Just as it is those for whom the films are primary who tend to suffer the most from movie contamination.)
I read fanfic quite a lot, and there are some wonderful ideas out there, many of which may eventually play out in canon. For example, in Wartcap's "Pumblechook," a delightful and hilarious story told from the point of view of an anti-Voldemort Dementor, she has Hermione retrieve a Horcrux simply by saying "Accio Horcrux." And I thought, "But that didn't work in HBP!" and then I realized that it wasn't really a Horcrux (just as Scabbers wasn't a rat in SS/PS, so he didn't turn yellow with Ron's spell). Wouldn't surprise me a bit if Rowling used that.
And, although you're all correct that Snape can be horribly out of character, the number of explanations that have been proposed for what happened on the Astronomy Tower or his half-Muggle background are as well thought out as they are on this discussion group--and of course there's the added plus of seeing the consequences. There are some nice stories that attempt to give us canon events through a different point of view that are quite insightful attempts to reconstruct what we would see if we weren't distracted by the Harry filter.
And, really, isn't that what we're all doing when we try and predict HP 7 or explain backstory, writing a speculative version of the story? I don't quite see the difference.
wynnleaf - Jul 9, 2006 10:51 am (#2689 of 2969)
Edited Jul 9, 2006 11:53 am
Sometimes it's interesting if a writer tries to keep characters as close to the canon characters as possible, and then put them in new situations and see if it truly fits the character. Many times I've seen posts on this forum where someone will say that they can't see (this or that) character doing a particular thing, or reacting a particular way. But I'll remember that a writer of a FF story was able to take that character, keep it very "in canon" as a character, and still have the character react in the unexpected way. I'll think, "if that writer could make it believable for the character to react that way, then JKR certainly could if she chose that path."
Choices, I used to think of FF like you. But I started to think that HP fan fiction was not particularly different in purpose than the innumerable Star Wars, Star Trek, Sherlock Holmes, and many, many other stories based on another's original work. Even some well-respected authors have written what is basically fan-fic (think Nicholas Meyer, for instance). Most I'll agree, is dreadful -- in more ways than one! But there are some gems and I do find some of the theories regarding plot or character motivations to be often thought provoking.
Sometimes, these writers have made me think about characters and their possible canon motivations in very different ways. For instance, a writer known as Possum132 writes Snape as not at all nice, emotionally immature, and (this was a new idea for me) a person whose hatred and jealousy of Harry is partly rooted in a sort of sybling rivalry, as both see DD as a kind of father figure. Of course, the sibling rivalry thing -- if brought up on this forum -- would be a theory to be tossed around, check out what evidence we've got that might support it, etc. But in the stories, the writer and his/her readers can explore whether or not it could possibly "work," while keeping the characters as close to what seems to be canon as possible.
journeymom - Jul 9, 2006 6:16 pm (#2690 of 2969)
Ann, the story Pumblechook also suggests dementors could be used to "suck" the bits of Voldy-soul out of the horcruxes. I thought that was intriguing.
Also, "A Walking Shadow" has my favorite theory, that Snape made an unbreakable vow with Lily to protect Harry. And that's why Dumbledore says the Potter's deaths are Snape's greatest regret. I brought that suggestion up here and several people brought up some chinks in the theory. I still like it, even if it doesn't hold out.
Solitaire - Jul 9, 2006 6:38 pm (#2691 of 2969)
Snape suffering from sibling rivalry with Harry ... interesting theory! Given that I see Snape as emotionally stunted, it kind of makes sense to me.
Solitaire
wynnleaf - Jul 10, 2006 6:43 am (#2692 of 2969)
Edited Jul 10, 2006 7:46 am
Snape suffering from sibling rivalry with Harry ... interesting theory! Given that I see Snape as emotionally stunted, it kind of makes sense to me.
I found it interesting. When Snape turned to DD prior to the Potter's deaths, DD would not simply take a newly disaffected DE and let him loose. I'd assume DD would spend quite a bit of time training and mentoring him. Most likely DD taught Snape occlumency (would LV want to train anyone with that sort of aptitude to be such a good occlumence? probably not). My guess is that DD wouldn't send a 19 year old as a spy against LV without also spending a good deal of time working with the young man.
Further, assuming JKR has really been hinting that Snape's father was abusive (maybe not, but canon seems to hint in that direction), then Snape may be another in the long line of characters without a good father figure. So DD, as a mentor and a person that is bestowing all this trust on Snape, might become a father-figure to Snape. Further, Snape does appear to want respect. DD gives him that.
So here's this young man who is largely not trusted or respected, who may not have had a decent fatherly influence, suddenly getting mentored, trusted, and respected by DD.
Despite Snape fans oft cited point that DD was prejudiced against Slytherins in favor of Gryffindor, we really don't see that prior to Harry's coming to Hogwarts. Slytherin won the house cup for years before Harry got there. Plus, we see DD making Snape a teacher at a very young age and allowing Snape a lot of latitude in his teaching.
Then Harry comes. Of course, Snape hates him at first because of James. But is this really going to sustain hatred for 6 years, without some current reasons to hate Harry? What if Snape's hatred builds not because of James, but because of DD's apparent bias toward Harry? And some of what DD does for Harry might appear to Snape to be diminishing himself. For instance, at the end of SS/PS when DD takes the house cup away from Slytherin and gives it to Gryffindor. Or when DD takes Harry's story about Sirius over Snape's (in Snape's eyes, of course). Or when Harry doesn't get punished as strongly as Snape thinks he should.
DD admits to his love for Harry. If Snape can sense that, too, and if he thinks of DD like a father, he might feel an added resentment toward Harry for seeming to take that fatherly favor of DD's away from Snape.
Of course, that's never going to be proven in canon. It's just a way of reading the character. I don't necessarily agree with it, but it makes a certain sense, and was a theory that could most fully be explored in the fan fiction format.
journeymom - Jul 10, 2006 7:55 am (#2693 of 2969)
There's the scene in OotP where Harry 'accuses' Snape of being a spy and Snape stares at him for a moment and then gets a satisfied grin and says yes, as a matter of fact I am a spy. Or words to that effect. In the context of sibling rivalry, this could be seen as Snape boasting about his position to Dd.
Soul Search - Jul 10, 2006 8:10 am (#2694 of 2969)
Edited Jul 10, 2006 9:12 am
I think there is merit to the idea that Snape resents Harry and the attention Harry receives from Dumbledore. I don't think "father figure" is quite right as a designation, however. Not wrong, exactly, but I would think it is more like Snape has been in a favored position with Dumbledore for thirteen years, and now Harry has usurped that.
It has also been suggested that Snape very much wants to be the one to defeat Voldemort, for reasons yet revealed, and resents that Harry is the one the prophecy was about.
Snape has tried to save Harry at least once (SS,) but has also tried to get him expelled (CoS, and threatened in PoA.) Suggests that Snape knows Harry must defeat Voldemort and so can't be killed, but would rather have Harry away from Snape's mentor, Dumbledore.
Strangely, there is a similarity between Bellatrix and Voldemort and Snape and Dumbledore. Bellatrix is jealous of Snape's favor with Voldemort and tries to cast doubt on his loyalty to Voldemort.
Snape and Bellatrix seem to have similar characteristics.
Solitaire - Jul 10, 2006 9:08 am (#2695 of 2969)
Bellatrix is jealous of Snape's favor with Voldemort and tries to cast doubt on his loyalty to Voldemort.
I wouldn't say Harry is jealous of Snape, exactly ... but doesn't he try to cast doubt on Snape's loyalty to Dumbledore?
Solitaire
wynnleaf - Jul 10, 2006 9:41 am (#2696 of 2969)
Edited Jul 10, 2006 10:42 am
Bellatrix is jealous of Snape's favor with Voldemort and tries to cast doubt on his loyalty to Voldemort.
I wouldn't say Harry is jealous of Snape, exactly ... but doesn't he try to cast doubt on Snape's loyalty to Dumbledore?
Solitaire, that's another interesting point. As I read Soul Search's post, I was thinking that, like Bellatrix wanting to retain her position with LV, Snape seems to highly value his position with DD. As Bellatrix would like to undermine Snape's position with LV, Snape would like to point out Harry's flaws to DD. But until you wrote it, I hadn't really put Harry into that equation also, in terms of his attempts to discredit Snape to DD.
Soul Search, I think you're right that "father figure" isn't really the right designation for either Harry or Snape's relationship with DD. But Snape and Harry appear to be similar in that they lacked good father figures (not certain with Snape of course). So that might make them both more apt to depend on a relationship with a father figure or at least an older male mentor. And both Harry and Snape try to undermine the good will that DD has for the other.
By the way, I wonder to what degree the need for a male mentor played into Snape's going to LV in the first place? If we assume that LV was a lot more charismatic before his defeat at Godrics Hollow, he could play on a disaffected young man like Snape and his need for respect, to be appreciated, trusted, etc. and make Snape think he was the one person that valued him. Just a guess, but it would create a similarity between the needs that drove Snape to LV (discovering later that LV didn't actually meet those needs) and the needs that would bind him so closely to DD that he'd eventually be willing to do practically anything for DD -- uh, except overcome his hate of Harry.
Soul Search - Jul 10, 2006 10:44 am (#2697 of 2969)
I never thought of Harry's repeated "bad Snape" claims to Dumbledore were related to a competition for Dumbledore's attention. No, I can't see it. Until HBP, Harry had little to do with Dumbledore, and then mostly when he was in trouble. He respected Dumbledore, but didn't confide in him or pour out his feelings, or anything.
He might have even feared Dumbledore a bit, since Dumbledore could send him back to the Dursleys. We saw this directly in CoS, when Harry didn't trust Dumbledore enough to tell him he was hearing voices no one else could.
I am not sure I would have recognized any claim that Snape sought Dumbledore's attention until HBP.
Harry just doesn't like, trust, or respect Snape and can't quite understand how anyone, especially Dumbledore, can.
Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 10, 2006 11:13 am (#2698 of 2969)
I think the jealousy Snape had for James has been transferred to Harry. Harry really looks like his father. Like Sirius, Snape struggles with separating the two. Snape knows his value to Dumbledore. LPO
Solitaire - Jul 10, 2006 11:20 am (#2699 of 2969)
Edited Jul 10, 2006 12:21 pm
I never thought of Harry's repeated "bad Snape" claims to Dumbledore were related to a competition for Dumbledore's attention.
No, Soul Search ... I do not think so, either. I just pointed out that, as Bella tries to disparage Snape's loyalty to Voldemort, Harry tries to get Dumbledore to see Snape's flaws and potential treachery. That was the only parallel I was making. I do not think Harry is "in competition" with Snape (or anyone else) for Dumbledore's attentions, affections, or loyalties. I agree with all of the points you made.
Solitaire
Dobby Socks - Jul 10, 2006 12:06 pm (#2700 of 2969)
Edited Jul 10, 2006 1:10 pm
I don’t see Harry participating in any sort of sibling rivalry for DD’s respect. I think you’re correct, Soul Search. This doesn’t fit with his view of Snape or motivation behind anything he says to DD regarding Snape.
Yet, I can see this as a possibility on Snape’s side. “Father figure” may not be the best term. “Mentor” fits better. I agree that he does appear to seek the respect of older, established, powerful men, which could have something to do with his home life as a child. Lucius could also fit this profile when the two were younger since he was, I think, about 6 years older than Severus, and may have recruited him for the DEs or helped him along once he was in their ranks. He probably also helped Snape polish himself socially. From what Sirius said (I know, Lol,) Snape’s social group at Hogwarts were all, as far as we know (that is, known timeline,) significantly older kids.
It does go to show how interesting theories can be raised and/or explored through fan-fiction. And wynnleaf, I’m not sure how to start a thread, but I think I’ve seen others mentioning contacting Kip about it. (?) I’ll pick back up on fanfic (have one more thing to say) unless the subject falls away too quickly. (I know it’s a bit OT.)
Soul Search, I’m one of those people who thinks Snape may hate Harry because he wanted to kill LV himself. I don’t see James being Harry’s father as quite a strong enough reason, even for Snape. I think it’s a contributing factor, but I suspect there are several contributing factors, all possible. I would say all probable. But, because it’s literature, JKR might do better to streamline it. Doesn’t seem to be room to make it overly complex. Unfortunately. I wonder how long people will be analyzing after the release and digestion of HP7?
Afterthought: Like Sirius, Snape struggles with separating the two. Nice parallel, LPO. I just find it hard to buy this as the only reason when there are many more that also fit with the way Snape might think.
wynnleaf - Jul 10, 2006 12:29 pm (#2701 of 2969)
Edited Jul 10, 2006 1:30 pm
I agree with everyone else that Harry isn't trying to compete with Snape, is not jealous of Snape, or any other sort of sybling rivalry sort of problem he'd have with Snape. Any sybling rivalry aspect to the two would be from Snape toward Harry. I only meant that it was interesting that they both are in the position of making desparaging remarks about each other to DD.
Like others, I tend to think Snapes motivations for hating Harry are several-fold. His hatred for James is certainly one. Possibly Harry's being the person that Lily died for. Possibly Snape's jealousy that Harry is the one prophecied to have a chance at killing LV, and also possibly a kind of sybling rivalry on Snape's part for the regard of their mentor. I see Snape's hatred for James as being the intial reason for his hatred of Harry, but that other things came into play to continue to sustain that hatred.
Solitaire - Jul 10, 2006 12:44 pm (#2702 of 2969)
I couldn't have put it better myself, Wynnleaf!
Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 10, 2006 1:52 pm (#2703 of 2969)
I agree Wynnleaf. There are many reasons for Snape to hate Harry. They are too the point of blindly hating each other no matter what. LPO
Vulture - Jul 10, 2006 9:02 pm (#2704 of 2969)
Edited Jul 10, 2006 10:09 pm
How do you start a thread? Sorry -- off topic, but where do I find out? (wynnleaf Jul 9, 2006 8:18 am (#2684))
Hi, wynnleaf: Click on "Harry Potter Lexicon Forum" (if you're in here, I mean). When you get out to the main Forum, you'll see a link (small letters, easy enough to miss) called "Add Discussion". Just click on that, type out your thread's title and introduction, click the buttons and away you go.
Usually, there'll be a few days before your thread gets approved _ it should turn up in the "New Threads Not Yet Approved" folder fairly quickly, though. My own most recent thread is "Avra Kedavra and The Morality Of Killing" _ still in there, I think. After it gets approved, where it goes depends on what it's about. I often find that mine are initially hard to find and that the quickest way is to do a search on the thread title. But that's probably me being thick, because I usually find that contributors have no trouble finding the new threads.
When you're typing out your thread introduction, remember to make clear what you regard as relevant or irrelevant, and what you want the thread to do. Might seem an obvious point, but even the most tightly-defined threads seem to veer off on intriguing side-tracks if given half a chance. (Myself being one of the guiltiest parties !!)
Hope this helps _ give a shout if any problems.
Vulture - Jul 10, 2006 9:24 pm (#2705 of 2969)
By the way, I'm not sure that I agree about Snape regarding Dumbledore as a father figure and/or mentor. The warmest feeling one can pick up from anything Snape says about Dumbledore in all the books so far is that of restrained respect.
The most passionate thing I've heard Snape say about Dumbledore is when he indignantly proclaims to (fake) Moody _ "The Headmaster trusts me !!" Snape usually refers to Dumbledore as "The Headmaster" _ not by his name, not even "Professor Dumbledore". He does say to Harry that "Dumbledore is a very great wizard. While he may feel able to say the name (Voldemort's), the rest of us ..." But even there, the warmest feeling one can deduce is professional admiration.
I think it's the other way about _ it's Dumbledore who keeps calling him "Severus" and saying that he trusts him.
Solitaire - Jul 10, 2006 9:33 pm (#2706 of 2969)
Doesn't Dumbledore call lots of people by their first names (Severus, Cornelius, Sirius, Arthur, Molly, Minerva, Tom ...)? This is something that actually caught my attention, because it seemed odd that he referred to Hermione and Ron as Miss Granger and Miss Weasley.
Solitaire
The One - Jul 10, 2006 10:07 pm (#2707 of 2969)
because it seemed odd that he referred to Hermione and Ron as Miss Granger and Miss Weasley.
Yes, Miss Weasley is particicularly weird! :p
Joke aside, it is a bit weird. But come to think of it, doesn't he almost always use the the form Mr/Miss <last name> about students other than Harry?
Solitaire - Jul 11, 2006 3:35 am (#2708 of 2969)
Now that I stop to think of it, I believe he refers to Neville and Draco by their first names, as well. Interesting ... But yes, I do believe he uses Mr. and Miss for most of the kids. Hm ...
Solitaire
The One - Jul 11, 2006 4:17 am (#2709 of 2969)
I think you are right Solitare.
But he does both I think. In PS he describes the relationship between James and Snape as "not unlike you and Mr Malfoy" if I remeber correctly. But at the tower he says Draco. I do not remeber what he says the other places.
Soul Search - Jul 11, 2006 5:06 am (#2710 of 2969)
Edited Jul 11, 2006 6:10 am
Given that Dumbledore is 150 years old, we might be seeing a long lost formality. Just reviewing in my mind, I have come up with the following:
Use formal Mr./Mrs./Miss (note, no MS.) when in a group or making a reference about someone in a conversation.
Use first name when one-to-one.
Does this fit, or mostly fit?
If it is a formality of Dumbledore's early years, I must applaud JKR for such attention to detail when developing a character.
If Snape is evil, how will we ever have any explanation for why Snape saved DD's life? wynnleaf
Perhaps he knew that Dumbledore was going to tell Harry about the horcruxes and Tom's background and figured that it would be better if Harry had all the information at his disposal. (It's possible that Dumbledore hasn't told Snape much about Voldemort's background.) He didn't want to kill Dumbledore before Harry's training was complete.
The main reason I brought up the Machiavelli thing is that it seems to be a deliberate reference by JKR. If Snape isn't in it for himself (I do tend to agree-or is it want to in spite of overwhelming evidence- with Wynnleaf and Ann in their previous objections). Do you think the similarities are just coincidences?
Another thing I find interesting is that we don't see any of Snape's memories of Voldemort. Surely there must be some that further define the Dark Lord.
wynnleaf - Jul 7, 2006 4:37 pm (#2672 of 2969)
Edited Jul 7, 2006 6:00 pm
If Snape is evil, how will we ever have any explanation for why Snape saved DD's life?
I believe he might explain it--to Bella, for example--by saying he is still maintaining his appearance of being loyal to Dumbledore, according to Voldemort's orders. I'd say that is as good an explanation as any.
Solitaire, I don't think so (edit: not the explanation part, but that he'd give it to Bella or anyone). Bella has no idea Snape saved DD's life. As far as we know, no one does other than Harry and Harry certainly isn't wondering why Snape has saved anyone's life. In other words, there isn't any character that's going to ask Snape why he saved anyone's life -- DD's in the case of my example. So Snape has no reason to be telling anyone. That's why I'm saying if Snape's evil there's no device hinted at yet through which JKR can explain Snape's actions. She hasn't left us with anyone who wants to know -- except the readers.
Choices, I bet Snape already owed DD a huge amount. DD kept him out of Azkaban for one thing.
rambkowalczyk, the reason I brought up the "why Snape saved DD" isn't to figure out the "why" part. We can theorize all sorts of reasons. The problem is that I don't see how (if Snape's evil) we'll ever find out in canon -- either about DD or the other lives saved. There's no character that is in the position of either knowing Snape saved lives, or wanting to know why. So there's no particular plot device hinted at yet through which JKR could tell the readers why Snape had saved DD's or other's lives.
On the Machievelli thing. Back when we first discussed this, I read the Mugglenet article and then looked up as much of the history I could find on the Roman Severus, Albinus, and others. Once I really started to read the history, it didn't particularly line up to the LV, DD, and Severus situation as we know it. Even just on the surface, HP Severus is in the weakest position for taking power, compared to the Roman one. But there's a lot of other differences.
Here's a quote of mine from #2005 on this thread.
As regards Lucius Septimius Severus, I suggest reading up on his life. It was really all quite complicated and the whole thing with Clodius Albinus is really nothing like the JKR characters. Albinus, for instance, was placed by Severus in a junior position as a governor of sorts with the understanding that he'd be Severus' successor. At about the same time Niger was setting himself up as emperor although Severus was also acclaimed emperor in Rome. These were basically two rivals that were clearly going to fight for the right to be emperor. Once Niger was defeated Severus had more secure power, and declared his own son his successor. Seems natural to me, but Albinus took offence (he was probably meant to take offense), and Albinus moved on Rome to fight Severus -- note: Albinus moved on Rome. A war started which Severus eventually won. Albinus probably committed suicide, although he may have been murdered (not by Severus).
Sure "Severus" "Albinus" and "Niger" (black, aka dark???), bear a resemblence to Albus, the Dark Lord, and Severus. But the stories don't seem much alike, especially with Albinus being subordinate to Severus. And there was never any question about Severus serving either Niger or Albinus, more like the opposite.
As to whether or not it's coincidental -- no. Here's a further quote from my #2009 post on that subject.
In our search for the hidden clues with which to figure out the future of the plot, there are some readers who hope to find some hidden pattern lurking in a game, a philosophy, history, other literature, where they will find JKR's plans systematically reflecting that earlier pattern. My guess is that in reality, JKR uses chess, alchemy, history, religious themes, literary themes, myth, and yes, even Machiavelli and the Severus and Albinus of history to piece together her own plot. But just because we can see glimmers of her sources doesn't mean that her plots will follow any of the source material so directly that we can predict either her plots or chara
Choices - Jul 7, 2006 5:05 pm (#2673 of 2969)
Wynnleaf - "Choices, I bet Snape already owed DD a huge amount. DD kept him out of Azkaban for one thing."
Good point!
Ann - Jul 7, 2006 5:52 pm (#2674 of 2969)
Edited Jul 7, 2006 6:54 pm
wynnleaf: "Sure "Severus" "Albinus" and "Niger" (black, aka dark???), bear a resemblence to Albus, the Dark Lord, and Severus. But the stories don't seem much alike, especially with Albinus being subordinate to Severus. And there was never any question about Severus serving either Niger or Albinus, more like the opposite."
And you'd think that Niger would be Sirius (or Regulus?). Actually it seems much more likely to me that JKR chose the name Albus because it means white rather than because it resembles Albinus. She's pretty careful with names, and if she was going to echo an ancient situation, she would presumably echo it. After all, when she chose that name, she was writing a children's book that she wasn't sure would ever be published. The odds of the kids reading Machiavelli or Roman history is pretty tiny, so why bother disguising the name? She didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition that has descended on her since.
Good writers may use older stories or histories as their starting point, but then they do their own thing with them. I think she's far more likely to consciously use a pattern of structural frameworks (like the 1/5-2/6-3/7 pattern I wrote about earlier) than make her story an allegorical recreation of a not very compelling bit of Roman history.
Snape may well be out for Snape, but I would venture to say that the role of charismatic leader of a Dark hoard is one that he knows is well beyond his capacity. (The man is decidedly not stupid.) Not to mention the fact that most of the hoard consists of annoyingly thick people, and I don't see him wanting to spend a lot of time with them. On the other hand, he is the consummate fanatical follower. He followed Voldemort in his youth, until Voldemort went after Lily. He's still following Dumbledore's instructions, just as Harry is.
Die Zimtzicke - Jul 7, 2006 7:14 pm (#2675 of 2969)
Speaking of Snape's memories, I still cannot beleive that his WORST memory was of some petty childhood slight. He must have seen some heavy things go down as a death eater.
But then Jo is pretty loose with the word worst. Remember when Ron said that the bad Quidditch game was the worst he ever felt, and Harry said, "Join the club"?
rambkowalczyk - Jul 7, 2006 7:30 pm (#2676 of 2969)
Wynnleaf, thanks for the reality check on Machiavelli, I will admit I never read it.
I still think the choice of names is somewhat deliberate. It doesn't necessarily mean Snape is out for himself but it might be a clue to his personality.
The Mugglenet author used the clues that Ron and Hermione referred to him as the prince. It could simply mean like Harry thought: If Voldemort is Lord then Snape is a prince and that JKR was not making a reference to Machiavelli. But in book 6, Snape is not a prince, he is half a prince, so maybe it means he is only halfway in it for himself. The other half might be on Dumbledore's side.
wynnleaf - Jul 7, 2006 8:54 pm (#2677 of 2969)
Edited Jul 7, 2006 9:56 pm
Ann,
Hey, Ann, I think you usually understand my admittedly convoluted posts fairly well, but I think you must have missed my meaning this time. Way back around posts number 2005 and 2009 (the ones I quoted myself on), I had been basically saying that JKR might have got the name Severus from the Roman Severus, as well as possibly picking Albus from Albinus' name. Or, if she had known long since about the historical characters, she may have thought of Albinus as soon as she came up with the name "Albus" and from there remembered the name Severus. But overall, I didn't think there was much similarity between the historical figures and JKR's characters.
I certainly don't think Niger would be Sirius or anything like that and was trying to say that the characters in her books aren't much like the historical characters situations at all.
I think she's far more likely to consciously use a pattern of structural frameworks (like the 1/5-2/6-3/7 pattern I wrote about earlier) than make her story an allegorical recreation of a not very compelling bit of Roman history.
I agree with you. I'd say, the better place to look for patterns is within her own books -- not in how they pattern other stories, games, or systems of thought. That's not to say she doesn't use other ideas. I think she's been fairly obviously using alchemical ideas. But I think we go too far if we began to assume that her plots are bound to particular outside systems not of her creation.
Ann - Jul 8, 2006 2:08 am (#2678 of 2969)
wynnleaf, I understood you. I was just being obscure myself. (I knew what I meant, after all!) A little more explicitly put: my point about Niger = Black was that such a parallel is at least as obvious as Niger = Dark Lord or Albinius = Albus. If Snape had had a more direct hand in Sirius's death, we could be saying Aha! about a very different parallel taken from the same group of characters. But he didn't, so we don't. Human beings look for patterns and connections, and often see them when they aren't even there; so if one can come up with an equally strong and entirely different pattern in the same evidence, our first pattern is quite possibly imaginary.
Okay, so that's not very clear either. It's very early--my cat woke me by knocking a pile of books off the headboard and onto my head, which may explain something, too. Must... make... coffee....
journeymom - Jul 8, 2006 11:41 am (#2679 of 2969)
Edited Jul 8, 2006 12:42 pm
Help! I'm reading a story; Snape is NOT Draco Malfoy's godfather in canon is he? That's been a feature in fanfic so often I'm starting to doubt myself. No where does JKR ever say Snape is Draco's godfather, right?
Choices - Jul 8, 2006 12:01 pm (#2680 of 2969)
Right! Remember, that "fic" in Fanfic stands for fiction. LOL
haymoni - Jul 8, 2006 6:56 pm (#2681 of 2969)
That's why I don't read fan fiction - It's hard enough to keep the REAL story straight! Movie contamination is bad enough!
wynnleaf - Jul 8, 2006 7:55 pm (#2682 of 2969)
Has there ever been a thread about fan fiction? I don't mean about particular stories. I've been interested in 1. Insight we get from trends in fan fics (such as why so many evil-DD stories, or insights gained when many writers try to make sense of the characters while staying true to canon) and 2. Misinformation or fan "legends" that get perpetuated by fan fic stories -- like Snape being Draco's godfather.
Dobby Socks - Jul 9, 2006 6:59 am (#2683 of 2969)
Edited Jul 9, 2006 8:02 am
wynnleaf,
If there hasn’t been one, I think that would be a great idea. There are many Snape “standards” (for lack of a better word – I’m tired) in fan fiction which fall into 3 categories: 1.) based in canon 2.) no basis in canon whatsoever 3.) can be extrapolated from canon depending on the author’s reading of Snape’s character. I wonder how much FF actually influences the fans who read it. Why people feel such a strong need to write it is another good question.
Even though I swore I’d never read it (as Haymoni says, movie contamination is bad enough,) I actually feel that there are certain authors who’ve expanded my insight into some canon concepts. And there are some that have raised questions that haven’t been fully answered in canon and would make for interesting discussions. Since beginning to read FF, I’ve become quite interested in how the Dark Arts are defined (apart from the Unforgiveables.) Is there a strict, uncrossable line between light and dark, or can the lesser dark spells and charms vary in darkness dependent on the motivation of the caster, on what end they achieve?
I also read a Red Hen essay in which she was labeling prophecies as a Dark Art because they are “wild magic,” uncontrolled (if I’m remembering correctly). Which is what child wizards do before they are schooled. Hmm.
Anyway, I like the first set of points you raised, especially how or if we can gain insight into a character through authors of FF trying to do the same. If it’s based in canon, it’s basically what we are trying to do here when we examine a character. Simply a different format. I’d like to see a thread on this.
EDIT: BTW, has there ever been a thread on what defines the Dark Arts?
wynnleaf - Jul 9, 2006 7:18 am (#2684 of 2969)
How do you start a thread? Sorry -- off topic, but where do I find out?
Mediwitch - Jul 9, 2006 7:19 am (#2685 of 2969)
wynnleaf, there is actually a forum called "Harry Potter Lexicon Fan Fiction". Although I have visited briefly, I don't think any of the threads there meet your criteria.
To come back to Snape...I agree with Dobby Socks, in the bit of FF I have read, Snape is one character who varies significantly from author to author.
Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 9, 2006 7:40 am (#2686 of 2969)
Mediwitch LOL Dobby Socks! LPO
Choices - Jul 9, 2006 8:52 am (#2687 of 2969)
Edited Jul 9, 2006 9:54 am
I am like Haymoni in that I do not read fanfic. Not only does it add to the confusion of facts (in my mind), like the movies do, but I find it disrespects the characters in that it portrays them with attitudes and in situations that JKR never intended. I simply do not even want to imagine these beloved characters in ways that are not appropriate or faithful to the HP story. Of all the characters in the books, I think Snape has been corrupted the most in fanfic and I find the majority of it repugnant.
Ann - Jul 9, 2006 10:30 am (#2688 of 2969)
Edited Jul 9, 2006 11:35 am
I don't know. I think, for those of us who've read the books over and over, it's not such a danger that we'll lose track of what's canon and what isn't. It is mostly people who have read the books through once and then lost themselves in romantic stories (mostly the favorite HG/SS pairing) that lose track of what's actually in the books. (Just as it is those for whom the films are primary who tend to suffer the most from movie contamination.)
I read fanfic quite a lot, and there are some wonderful ideas out there, many of which may eventually play out in canon. For example, in Wartcap's "Pumblechook," a delightful and hilarious story told from the point of view of an anti-Voldemort Dementor, she has Hermione retrieve a Horcrux simply by saying "Accio Horcrux." And I thought, "But that didn't work in HBP!" and then I realized that it wasn't really a Horcrux (just as Scabbers wasn't a rat in SS/PS, so he didn't turn yellow with Ron's spell). Wouldn't surprise me a bit if Rowling used that.
And, although you're all correct that Snape can be horribly out of character, the number of explanations that have been proposed for what happened on the Astronomy Tower or his half-Muggle background are as well thought out as they are on this discussion group--and of course there's the added plus of seeing the consequences. There are some nice stories that attempt to give us canon events through a different point of view that are quite insightful attempts to reconstruct what we would see if we weren't distracted by the Harry filter.
And, really, isn't that what we're all doing when we try and predict HP 7 or explain backstory, writing a speculative version of the story? I don't quite see the difference.
wynnleaf - Jul 9, 2006 10:51 am (#2689 of 2969)
Edited Jul 9, 2006 11:53 am
Sometimes it's interesting if a writer tries to keep characters as close to the canon characters as possible, and then put them in new situations and see if it truly fits the character. Many times I've seen posts on this forum where someone will say that they can't see (this or that) character doing a particular thing, or reacting a particular way. But I'll remember that a writer of a FF story was able to take that character, keep it very "in canon" as a character, and still have the character react in the unexpected way. I'll think, "if that writer could make it believable for the character to react that way, then JKR certainly could if she chose that path."
Choices, I used to think of FF like you. But I started to think that HP fan fiction was not particularly different in purpose than the innumerable Star Wars, Star Trek, Sherlock Holmes, and many, many other stories based on another's original work. Even some well-respected authors have written what is basically fan-fic (think Nicholas Meyer, for instance). Most I'll agree, is dreadful -- in more ways than one! But there are some gems and I do find some of the theories regarding plot or character motivations to be often thought provoking.
Sometimes, these writers have made me think about characters and their possible canon motivations in very different ways. For instance, a writer known as Possum132 writes Snape as not at all nice, emotionally immature, and (this was a new idea for me) a person whose hatred and jealousy of Harry is partly rooted in a sort of sybling rivalry, as both see DD as a kind of father figure. Of course, the sibling rivalry thing -- if brought up on this forum -- would be a theory to be tossed around, check out what evidence we've got that might support it, etc. But in the stories, the writer and his/her readers can explore whether or not it could possibly "work," while keeping the characters as close to what seems to be canon as possible.
journeymom - Jul 9, 2006 6:16 pm (#2690 of 2969)
Ann, the story Pumblechook also suggests dementors could be used to "suck" the bits of Voldy-soul out of the horcruxes. I thought that was intriguing.
Also, "A Walking Shadow" has my favorite theory, that Snape made an unbreakable vow with Lily to protect Harry. And that's why Dumbledore says the Potter's deaths are Snape's greatest regret. I brought that suggestion up here and several people brought up some chinks in the theory. I still like it, even if it doesn't hold out.
Solitaire - Jul 9, 2006 6:38 pm (#2691 of 2969)
Snape suffering from sibling rivalry with Harry ... interesting theory! Given that I see Snape as emotionally stunted, it kind of makes sense to me.
Solitaire
wynnleaf - Jul 10, 2006 6:43 am (#2692 of 2969)
Edited Jul 10, 2006 7:46 am
Snape suffering from sibling rivalry with Harry ... interesting theory! Given that I see Snape as emotionally stunted, it kind of makes sense to me.
I found it interesting. When Snape turned to DD prior to the Potter's deaths, DD would not simply take a newly disaffected DE and let him loose. I'd assume DD would spend quite a bit of time training and mentoring him. Most likely DD taught Snape occlumency (would LV want to train anyone with that sort of aptitude to be such a good occlumence? probably not). My guess is that DD wouldn't send a 19 year old as a spy against LV without also spending a good deal of time working with the young man.
Further, assuming JKR has really been hinting that Snape's father was abusive (maybe not, but canon seems to hint in that direction), then Snape may be another in the long line of characters without a good father figure. So DD, as a mentor and a person that is bestowing all this trust on Snape, might become a father-figure to Snape. Further, Snape does appear to want respect. DD gives him that.
So here's this young man who is largely not trusted or respected, who may not have had a decent fatherly influence, suddenly getting mentored, trusted, and respected by DD.
Despite Snape fans oft cited point that DD was prejudiced against Slytherins in favor of Gryffindor, we really don't see that prior to Harry's coming to Hogwarts. Slytherin won the house cup for years before Harry got there. Plus, we see DD making Snape a teacher at a very young age and allowing Snape a lot of latitude in his teaching.
Then Harry comes. Of course, Snape hates him at first because of James. But is this really going to sustain hatred for 6 years, without some current reasons to hate Harry? What if Snape's hatred builds not because of James, but because of DD's apparent bias toward Harry? And some of what DD does for Harry might appear to Snape to be diminishing himself. For instance, at the end of SS/PS when DD takes the house cup away from Slytherin and gives it to Gryffindor. Or when DD takes Harry's story about Sirius over Snape's (in Snape's eyes, of course). Or when Harry doesn't get punished as strongly as Snape thinks he should.
DD admits to his love for Harry. If Snape can sense that, too, and if he thinks of DD like a father, he might feel an added resentment toward Harry for seeming to take that fatherly favor of DD's away from Snape.
Of course, that's never going to be proven in canon. It's just a way of reading the character. I don't necessarily agree with it, but it makes a certain sense, and was a theory that could most fully be explored in the fan fiction format.
journeymom - Jul 10, 2006 7:55 am (#2693 of 2969)
There's the scene in OotP where Harry 'accuses' Snape of being a spy and Snape stares at him for a moment and then gets a satisfied grin and says yes, as a matter of fact I am a spy. Or words to that effect. In the context of sibling rivalry, this could be seen as Snape boasting about his position to Dd.
Soul Search - Jul 10, 2006 8:10 am (#2694 of 2969)
Edited Jul 10, 2006 9:12 am
I think there is merit to the idea that Snape resents Harry and the attention Harry receives from Dumbledore. I don't think "father figure" is quite right as a designation, however. Not wrong, exactly, but I would think it is more like Snape has been in a favored position with Dumbledore for thirteen years, and now Harry has usurped that.
It has also been suggested that Snape very much wants to be the one to defeat Voldemort, for reasons yet revealed, and resents that Harry is the one the prophecy was about.
Snape has tried to save Harry at least once (SS,) but has also tried to get him expelled (CoS, and threatened in PoA.) Suggests that Snape knows Harry must defeat Voldemort and so can't be killed, but would rather have Harry away from Snape's mentor, Dumbledore.
Strangely, there is a similarity between Bellatrix and Voldemort and Snape and Dumbledore. Bellatrix is jealous of Snape's favor with Voldemort and tries to cast doubt on his loyalty to Voldemort.
Snape and Bellatrix seem to have similar characteristics.
Solitaire - Jul 10, 2006 9:08 am (#2695 of 2969)
Bellatrix is jealous of Snape's favor with Voldemort and tries to cast doubt on his loyalty to Voldemort.
I wouldn't say Harry is jealous of Snape, exactly ... but doesn't he try to cast doubt on Snape's loyalty to Dumbledore?
Solitaire
wynnleaf - Jul 10, 2006 9:41 am (#2696 of 2969)
Edited Jul 10, 2006 10:42 am
Bellatrix is jealous of Snape's favor with Voldemort and tries to cast doubt on his loyalty to Voldemort.
I wouldn't say Harry is jealous of Snape, exactly ... but doesn't he try to cast doubt on Snape's loyalty to Dumbledore?
Solitaire, that's another interesting point. As I read Soul Search's post, I was thinking that, like Bellatrix wanting to retain her position with LV, Snape seems to highly value his position with DD. As Bellatrix would like to undermine Snape's position with LV, Snape would like to point out Harry's flaws to DD. But until you wrote it, I hadn't really put Harry into that equation also, in terms of his attempts to discredit Snape to DD.
Soul Search, I think you're right that "father figure" isn't really the right designation for either Harry or Snape's relationship with DD. But Snape and Harry appear to be similar in that they lacked good father figures (not certain with Snape of course). So that might make them both more apt to depend on a relationship with a father figure or at least an older male mentor. And both Harry and Snape try to undermine the good will that DD has for the other.
By the way, I wonder to what degree the need for a male mentor played into Snape's going to LV in the first place? If we assume that LV was a lot more charismatic before his defeat at Godrics Hollow, he could play on a disaffected young man like Snape and his need for respect, to be appreciated, trusted, etc. and make Snape think he was the one person that valued him. Just a guess, but it would create a similarity between the needs that drove Snape to LV (discovering later that LV didn't actually meet those needs) and the needs that would bind him so closely to DD that he'd eventually be willing to do practically anything for DD -- uh, except overcome his hate of Harry.
Soul Search - Jul 10, 2006 10:44 am (#2697 of 2969)
I never thought of Harry's repeated "bad Snape" claims to Dumbledore were related to a competition for Dumbledore's attention. No, I can't see it. Until HBP, Harry had little to do with Dumbledore, and then mostly when he was in trouble. He respected Dumbledore, but didn't confide in him or pour out his feelings, or anything.
He might have even feared Dumbledore a bit, since Dumbledore could send him back to the Dursleys. We saw this directly in CoS, when Harry didn't trust Dumbledore enough to tell him he was hearing voices no one else could.
I am not sure I would have recognized any claim that Snape sought Dumbledore's attention until HBP.
Harry just doesn't like, trust, or respect Snape and can't quite understand how anyone, especially Dumbledore, can.
Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 10, 2006 11:13 am (#2698 of 2969)
I think the jealousy Snape had for James has been transferred to Harry. Harry really looks like his father. Like Sirius, Snape struggles with separating the two. Snape knows his value to Dumbledore. LPO
Solitaire - Jul 10, 2006 11:20 am (#2699 of 2969)
Edited Jul 10, 2006 12:21 pm
I never thought of Harry's repeated "bad Snape" claims to Dumbledore were related to a competition for Dumbledore's attention.
No, Soul Search ... I do not think so, either. I just pointed out that, as Bella tries to disparage Snape's loyalty to Voldemort, Harry tries to get Dumbledore to see Snape's flaws and potential treachery. That was the only parallel I was making. I do not think Harry is "in competition" with Snape (or anyone else) for Dumbledore's attentions, affections, or loyalties. I agree with all of the points you made.
Solitaire
Dobby Socks - Jul 10, 2006 12:06 pm (#2700 of 2969)
Edited Jul 10, 2006 1:10 pm
I don’t see Harry participating in any sort of sibling rivalry for DD’s respect. I think you’re correct, Soul Search. This doesn’t fit with his view of Snape or motivation behind anything he says to DD regarding Snape.
Yet, I can see this as a possibility on Snape’s side. “Father figure” may not be the best term. “Mentor” fits better. I agree that he does appear to seek the respect of older, established, powerful men, which could have something to do with his home life as a child. Lucius could also fit this profile when the two were younger since he was, I think, about 6 years older than Severus, and may have recruited him for the DEs or helped him along once he was in their ranks. He probably also helped Snape polish himself socially. From what Sirius said (I know, Lol,) Snape’s social group at Hogwarts were all, as far as we know (that is, known timeline,) significantly older kids.
It does go to show how interesting theories can be raised and/or explored through fan-fiction. And wynnleaf, I’m not sure how to start a thread, but I think I’ve seen others mentioning contacting Kip about it. (?) I’ll pick back up on fanfic (have one more thing to say) unless the subject falls away too quickly. (I know it’s a bit OT.)
Soul Search, I’m one of those people who thinks Snape may hate Harry because he wanted to kill LV himself. I don’t see James being Harry’s father as quite a strong enough reason, even for Snape. I think it’s a contributing factor, but I suspect there are several contributing factors, all possible. I would say all probable. But, because it’s literature, JKR might do better to streamline it. Doesn’t seem to be room to make it overly complex. Unfortunately. I wonder how long people will be analyzing after the release and digestion of HP7?
Afterthought: Like Sirius, Snape struggles with separating the two. Nice parallel, LPO. I just find it hard to buy this as the only reason when there are many more that also fit with the way Snape might think.
wynnleaf - Jul 10, 2006 12:29 pm (#2701 of 2969)
Edited Jul 10, 2006 1:30 pm
I agree with everyone else that Harry isn't trying to compete with Snape, is not jealous of Snape, or any other sort of sybling rivalry sort of problem he'd have with Snape. Any sybling rivalry aspect to the two would be from Snape toward Harry. I only meant that it was interesting that they both are in the position of making desparaging remarks about each other to DD.
Like others, I tend to think Snapes motivations for hating Harry are several-fold. His hatred for James is certainly one. Possibly Harry's being the person that Lily died for. Possibly Snape's jealousy that Harry is the one prophecied to have a chance at killing LV, and also possibly a kind of sybling rivalry on Snape's part for the regard of their mentor. I see Snape's hatred for James as being the intial reason for his hatred of Harry, but that other things came into play to continue to sustain that hatred.
Solitaire - Jul 10, 2006 12:44 pm (#2702 of 2969)
I couldn't have put it better myself, Wynnleaf!
Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 10, 2006 1:52 pm (#2703 of 2969)
I agree Wynnleaf. There are many reasons for Snape to hate Harry. They are too the point of blindly hating each other no matter what. LPO
Vulture - Jul 10, 2006 9:02 pm (#2704 of 2969)
Edited Jul 10, 2006 10:09 pm
How do you start a thread? Sorry -- off topic, but where do I find out? (wynnleaf Jul 9, 2006 8:18 am (#2684))
Hi, wynnleaf: Click on "Harry Potter Lexicon Forum" (if you're in here, I mean). When you get out to the main Forum, you'll see a link (small letters, easy enough to miss) called "Add Discussion". Just click on that, type out your thread's title and introduction, click the buttons and away you go.
Usually, there'll be a few days before your thread gets approved _ it should turn up in the "New Threads Not Yet Approved" folder fairly quickly, though. My own most recent thread is "Avra Kedavra and The Morality Of Killing" _ still in there, I think. After it gets approved, where it goes depends on what it's about. I often find that mine are initially hard to find and that the quickest way is to do a search on the thread title. But that's probably me being thick, because I usually find that contributors have no trouble finding the new threads.
When you're typing out your thread introduction, remember to make clear what you regard as relevant or irrelevant, and what you want the thread to do. Might seem an obvious point, but even the most tightly-defined threads seem to veer off on intriguing side-tracks if given half a chance. (Myself being one of the guiltiest parties !!)
Hope this helps _ give a shout if any problems.
Vulture - Jul 10, 2006 9:24 pm (#2705 of 2969)
By the way, I'm not sure that I agree about Snape regarding Dumbledore as a father figure and/or mentor. The warmest feeling one can pick up from anything Snape says about Dumbledore in all the books so far is that of restrained respect.
The most passionate thing I've heard Snape say about Dumbledore is when he indignantly proclaims to (fake) Moody _ "The Headmaster trusts me !!" Snape usually refers to Dumbledore as "The Headmaster" _ not by his name, not even "Professor Dumbledore". He does say to Harry that "Dumbledore is a very great wizard. While he may feel able to say the name (Voldemort's), the rest of us ..." But even there, the warmest feeling one can deduce is professional admiration.
I think it's the other way about _ it's Dumbledore who keeps calling him "Severus" and saying that he trusts him.
Solitaire - Jul 10, 2006 9:33 pm (#2706 of 2969)
Doesn't Dumbledore call lots of people by their first names (Severus, Cornelius, Sirius, Arthur, Molly, Minerva, Tom ...)? This is something that actually caught my attention, because it seemed odd that he referred to Hermione and Ron as Miss Granger and Miss Weasley.
Solitaire
The One - Jul 10, 2006 10:07 pm (#2707 of 2969)
because it seemed odd that he referred to Hermione and Ron as Miss Granger and Miss Weasley.
Yes, Miss Weasley is particicularly weird! :p
Joke aside, it is a bit weird. But come to think of it, doesn't he almost always use the the form Mr/Miss <last name> about students other than Harry?
Solitaire - Jul 11, 2006 3:35 am (#2708 of 2969)
Now that I stop to think of it, I believe he refers to Neville and Draco by their first names, as well. Interesting ... But yes, I do believe he uses Mr. and Miss for most of the kids. Hm ...
Solitaire
The One - Jul 11, 2006 4:17 am (#2709 of 2969)
I think you are right Solitare.
But he does both I think. In PS he describes the relationship between James and Snape as "not unlike you and Mr Malfoy" if I remeber correctly. But at the tower he says Draco. I do not remeber what he says the other places.
Soul Search - Jul 11, 2006 5:06 am (#2710 of 2969)
Edited Jul 11, 2006 6:10 am
Given that Dumbledore is 150 years old, we might be seeing a long lost formality. Just reviewing in my mind, I have come up with the following:
Use formal Mr./Mrs./Miss (note, no MS.) when in a group or making a reference about someone in a conversation.
Use first name when one-to-one.
Does this fit, or mostly fit?
If it is a formality of Dumbledore's early years, I must applaud JKR for such attention to detail when developing a character.
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Solitaire - Jul 11, 2006 10:21 am (#2711 of 2969)
Edited Jul 11, 2006 11:24 am
Use formal Mr./Mrs./Miss (note, no MS.) when in a group or making a reference about someone in a conversation. ... Use first name when one-to-one.
I think this mostly fits, Soul Search, and you are certainly correct about the long-lost formalities ... but there do seem to be some exceptions. Below are a few I could remember ...
In PoA, when Dumbledore is in the infirmary with Harry, and Hermione, we see the following exceptions:
(Speaking about them) -- "I would like to speak to Harry and Hermione alone," said Dumbledore abruptly. "Cornelius, Severus, Poppy -- please leave us."
(Speaking to them) -- "I am going to lock you in. It is --" he consulted his watch, "five minutes to midnight. Miss Granger, three turns should do it. Good luck."
In GoF, after Harry has snooped in the Pensieve, Dumbledore refers to Neville by his first name: Dumbledore gave Harry a very sharp look. "Has Neville never told you why he has been brought up by his grandmother?" he said.
I'm not sure where I'm going with all this ... and I suppose it really belongs on Dumbledore's thread, anyway. I just thought it was interesting.
Along this same idea, something else struck me ... Doesn't Snape usually refer to Harry as just "Potter"--whether speaking to him or about him--without the Mr. he uses with the other boys? I believe there are probably some early exceptions, but he generally does not seem to afford Harry any of his usual "courtesies." It just seems one more example of Snape going out of his way to denigrate Harry. You know, Uncle Vernon should meet Snape. If he were to share his sentiments about Harry, he might redeem the magical population in Uncle Vernon's eyes.
Solitaire
journeymom - Jul 11, 2006 11:13 am (#2712 of 2969)
Sorry to interrupt, but I'm suffering from fanfic contamination, I think. Did Snape spend time in Azkaban?
haymoni - Jul 11, 2006 11:29 am (#2713 of 2969)
Not that I recall. Check with Gina.
journeymom [/b]- Jul 11, 2006 12:51 pm (#2714 of 2969)
I checked Snape's time-line on the Lexicon, no he didn't spend any time in Azkaban. That was the point of Dumbledore vouching for him, I suppose.
wynnleaf - Jul 11, 2006 1:16 pm (#2715 of 2969)
Sorry to interrupt, but I'm suffering from fanfic contamination, I think. Did Snape spend time in Azkaban?
I'm not sure that we actually know the answer to this question. Yes, DD vouched for Snape, presumably sometime shortly after LV's fall at Godric's Hollow. But we don't at what point DD had to vouch for Snape.
DD could have approached the MOM first, explaining that Snape was a spy and not to go after him as a DE.
Or, Snape could have been accused by another DE before the MOM, and DD could have then come forward to vouch for Snape's activities as a spy.
If the former occurred, we don't know if Snape stayed completely out of Azkaban, or if he was arrested first and then DD came to his support.
If we never learn any more about it, then in all probability, Snape never went into Azkaban at all. But since we haven't gotten a lot of information about exactly how it all happened, we just don't know.
On the other hand, perhaps I'm mistaken and someone remembers a point in the text where we get definite info about this.
journeymom - Jul 11, 2006 1:30 pm (#2716 of 2969)
Well, darn you wynnleaf, you're making it a gray issue instead of a nice, tidy black and white, yes or no issue!
Soul Search - Jul 11, 2006 2:40 pm (#2717 of 2969)
Edited Jul 11, 2006 3:43 pm
I think in the GoF pensive scene, when Karkaroff names Snape, Dumbledore immediately speaks up and says Snape turned spy before Voldemort's downfall and had been cleared by the council. It is my understanding that the pensive scene was shortly after Godric's Hollow, so there wouldn't have been much time for any accusations of Snape to come before the council from another DE's testimony.
I do wonder that Dumbledore spoke up, as if Crouch didn't know about it.
There is still some doubt if Snape had any kind of formal arrest and hearing, but I would vote for no time in Azkaban.
Solitaire - Jul 11, 2006 2:50 pm (#2718 of 2969)
The way I understood it from the Pensieve scene in GoF, Snape came to Dumbledore voluntarily, before any accusations or charges of involvement with the DEs had even been leveled. I got the idea that Dumbledore immediately took him in at Hogwarts. JM2K, of course ...
Solitaire
Vulture - Jul 11, 2006 3:17 pm (#2719 of 2969)
Edited Jul 11, 2006 4:26 pm
I'm inclined to think Snape never went to Azkaban, or if he did at all, it was probably on the same basis as Hagrid in Book 2, for a few nights while under suspicion. In "Spinner's End", he says that he took up the Hogwarts post "on the Dark Lord's orders" _ i.e. before Voldemort fell. In Book 4, Dumbledore says that Snape returned to "our side" before Voldemort fell, and "turned spy for us". In Book 6, we're told that Snape was the Hog's Head eavesdropper referred to in Book 5, and that Snape was looking for a job at Hogwarts at the time. Given that Snape was "thrown from the building" (as stated, without naming him, in Book 5) he could not have later got the job after all without, as he put it himself, spinning Dumbledore a tale of deepest remorse (whether genuine or not, is not my point here). Also, Dumbledore, like most anti-Voldemort wizards, would be more sceptical of those, like Lucius Malfoy, who deserted Voldemort after he had fallen.
So, my point with all this is :
(1) no-one escaped from Azkaban before Sirius, and the Ministry weren't much in the mood for letting out suspects during the first Voldemort war, so it's unlikely that Snape was ever in Azkaban before he came to Hogwarts;
(2) from the crowded nature of the events leading up to his Hogwarts job, I think it unlikely that he was arrested during them;
(3) once he was in Hogwarts, he was under Dumbledore's protection. He himself says to Bellatrix in "Spinner's End" that "it was only Dumbledore's protection that was keeping me out of Azkaban". He also defends himself against Bellatrix's comparisons of him and her in terms that indicate that he was never in Azkaban _ if he had been there while she was, I think he would have mentioned it, or she would have known: Sirius, after all seemed to know about other prisoners.
=======================================================================================================
By the way, that phrase about "spinning a tale of deepest remorse" reminds me that I keep meaning to mention the possible double meaning in the chapter title "Spinner's End" _ i.e. that the Vow is what finally stops Snape the Spinner from spinning his webs. I suppose this has been noticed before ? (I may even have mentioned it before, myself !!)
=======================================================================================================
Along this same idea, something else struck me ... Doesn't Snape usually refer to Harry as just "Potter"--whether speaking to him or about him--without the Mr. he uses with the other boys? I believe there are probably some early exceptions, but he generally does not seem to afford Harry any of his usual "courtesies." It just seems one more example of Snape going out of his way to denigrate Harry. (Solitaire Jul 11, 2006 11:21 am (#2711))
In fairness to Snape (Good God, what's happening to me ?!!), I think he refers to, and addresses, all male students by their surnames without the "Mr.". The one exception is Draco, whom we hear him addressing by his first name _ but even that is outside the class situation, as far as I recall. He does address female students with "Miss", as in when he takes points from Hermione in Book 3 "for being an insufferable know-it-all".
As for Dumbledore, he seems to use "Mr." and "Miss" to students in formal school and class situations, particularly when other teachers or adults are present. On the other hand, he usually addresses adults by their first names. In one-to-one situations, or informal ones, he sometimes addresses students by their first-name terms.
I think (this bit is just me reading his character _ no evidence as such) it comes down to what Dumbledore feels is best for the student in the particular situation. For example, when he says to Harry, "Has Neville never told you why he has been brought up by his grandmother?", I think that it's best at that point to talk as if Neville is Harry's friend, rather than "Mr. Longbottom". Again, on the Tower in Book 6, I think his priority, when calling Malfoy "Draco", is to relax the situation.
Why does he say "Miss Granger, three turns should do it. Good luck" in Book 3 ? Well, it probably doesn't matter much, but (1) Miss Granger herself (especially in the early books) prefers being all-present-and-correct with teachers, and (2) the "Miss Granger" phrase does communicate a certain authority, and therefore urgency, which is necessary in the situation. That is to say (really nit-picky, this !!), necessary for the particular situation between Dumbledore and Hermione at that moment. (And yes, I realise that Dumbledore would not have called Harry "Mr. Potter".)
When Dumbledore says "Not unlike yourself and Mr. Malfoy" in Book 1, he is doing several things with one simple phrase. For one thing, he is trying to bring Harry's view of Snape a bit more down to earth _ Harry's "he hates me because he hated my father" gives a much harsher and more emphatic picture than Dumbledore's answer. Secondly, the "Mr. Malfoy" is a deliberate courtesy to someone whom Harry doesn't feel like being routinely courteous to _ in Dumbledore's school, everyone has equal rights. Thirdly, the way Dumbledore's answer is separated into two sentences _ not "Well, they did rather detest each other, not unlike yourself and Mr. Malfoy.", but "Well, they did rather detest each other. Not unlike yourself and Mr. Malfoy." _ has a definite effect: the first sentence agrees with what Quirrell told Harry, but (unlike Quirrell's "They loathed each other") has an indulgent, almost benevolent tone to it that reminds us that we're talking about two schoolboys. Then the second sentence reminds Harry that we all have our quarrels and enmities.
Of course, even Dumbledore cannot change the one clear injustice in the situation _ Snape's choice to take out his feelings against James on James's son.
Solitaire - Jul 11, 2006 3:28 pm (#2720 of 2969)
In fairness to Snape (Good God, what's happening to me ?!!)
LOL Vulture! I felt the same way in my previous post! hehe
Choices - Jul 11, 2006 5:38 pm (#2721 of 2969)
In Snape's conversation with Bellatrix and Narcissa at Spinner's End, I think it is made pretty clear that Snape did not do any time in Azkaban.
journeymom - Jul 11, 2006 7:27 pm (#2722 of 2969)
Ah see, there it is, Choices. Thanks.
Todd Watts - Jul 12, 2006 11:05 am (#2723 of 2969)
I have a question. How did Snape know about the battle that Draco and Harry were having in the bathroom. Does the Unbreakable have a warning that the one under protection is in danager. This just didn't set right with me. Why was it Snape that came in? Another Question, why was Snape misleading Bella at Spinners End about Harry's abilities, he states that Harry is average. We know, and so does Snape all the things Harry has done (The Patronus?, the Dementors, rescuing Sirius, etc) He wanted Bella to think less of Harry and Dumbledore
What do you guys think? Thanks,
Choices - Jul 12, 2006 11:14 am (#2724 of 2969)
Todd Watts - "why was Snape misleading Bella at Spinners End about Harry's abilities, he states that Harry is average."
I think Snape knows that the best thing your enemy can do is to underestimate his opponent's abilities.
wynnleaf - Jul 12, 2006 11:27 am (#2725 of 2969)
Todd Watts,
I agree that Snape was intentionally misinforming Bella about both Harry and DD's abilities at Spinners End.
On why Snape showed up in the bathrooms during the Sectumsempra chapter... I have given that some thought in the past. My favorite theory is that Snape had set some sort of watch over Draco. Whether due to the Vow, or simply because he was trying to figure out exactly what Draco's plans were, I think Snape was watching Draco as closely or even more closely than Harry. After all, Harry didn't know what Draco was up to. Snape at least knew that he was trying to kill DD. Anyway, I thought that there could be several ways Snape could keep a watch on Draco, and that might include a method that would tell him that Harry had entered into the bathrooms as well. So he could have been going toward the bathrooms, and been almost there, at the moment Moaning Myrtle came out into the hall screaming "murder!"
An example of a way to watch Draco could include something akin to the Marauder's Map. Or there could be other magical means. Since DD was supporting Snape's attempts to discover what Draco was up to, DD could have helped Snape with the magical means to watch Draco.
Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 12, 2006 2:11 pm (#2726 of 2969)
Todd Watts I think Snape truly believes Harry is average. I don't think Snape wants to admit anything positive about Harry. No matter who he is talking to. If we compare Harry to Snape, James or Sirius he is pretty average academically. LPO
Ann - Jul 12, 2006 3:34 pm (#2727 of 2969)
Edited Jul 12, 2006 4:38 pm
I agree with those of you who say that Snape thinks of Harry as average. He certainly hasn't done well in Potions, and by the time Snape begins teaching him in Defense, his opinion of the kid is pretty well set. When I first read in HBP that Snape had been given the Defense position at last, I expected that he would be surprised to observe that Harry was actually pretty good at it, and that this would be the beginning of a rapprochement between the two--which I think has to happen eventually anyway. But, of course, I was wrong.
As for Snape in Azkaban: He started at Hogwarts in September of 1981, and the Potters were killed two months later. I think at this point he'd been working for Dumbledore as a spy for almost two years. (The prophecy happened soon after Harry's conception in October 1979, since Trelawney has been teaching two years longer than Snape when Umbridge asks them both in OotP, and I think Snape went to Dumbledore quite soon afterwards.) Dumbledore had to vouch for him, so presumably someone must have fingered him as a DE, and it's possible he spent time in Azkaban.
But if so, it must have been very brief; and in fact I bet he didn't, since he wouldn't have arrived until Sirius was already there, and Sirius seems to have kept fairly careful tabs on arrivals. Sirius also says that, as far as he knows (and despite his contacts) Snape was never accused of being a DE, so it sounds unlikely that there was any sort of formal trial.
Of course, Sirius doesn't know about the Dark Mark, either--but I really wonder if anyone does, except Dumbledore, before Snape's dramatic gesture to Fudge. Snape and Kakaroff are both Death Eaters, as is Moody-Crouch Jr. ("spots that don't come off"), and no one else seems to know that they're all branded. You'd think the Minister of Magic, of all people, would know; and Sirius was an Order member, so it can't have been widely known among them. And, in fact, it would have been a fool-proof way to counter the Imperius defense (if they'd checked Malfoy's arm) or other uncertainty (Crouch Jr.). If it was not known, Snape's revealing it, only moments before he returns to Voldemort's fold and spying for the order, may have been a much more significant and brave act than most of us have seen it as. (I still view this one of the most important reasons to believe that Snape Is Good.)
Of course, you could argue that Sirius is a bit oblivious about Snape, since he'd actually been teaching at Hogwarts for two months before Sirius was imprisoned (and he says in both GoF and OotP that he didn't know this). But for some reason this looks more like a JKR error to me than the other, which is quite pointed. (She loves to do things like that: the spell to turn the rat yellow doesn't work because he's not a rat; Aurors don't know about the Dark Mark, because Crouch-Moody isn't really an Auror; and Harry's "Accio Horcrux" spell is unsuccessful because the locket isn't a Horcrux.
Solitaire - Jul 12, 2006 5:02 pm (#2728 of 2969)
I thought the Potters went into hiding under the Fidelius Charm as soon as they found out they were being targeted. Surely Dumbledore would have told them they were in danger as soon as Snape told him.
In PoA, Fudge says following: "And then, barely a week after the Fidelius Charm had been performed --"
"Black betrayed them?" breathed Madam Rosmerta.
"He did indeed ..."
This makes it sound like not more than a couple of weeks could have passed between the time Dumbledore was told the Potters were being targeted and the night they died. If it was that particular piece of information which made Snape defect from Voldemort--as many believe is the case--then it seems unlikely that he could have been working for Dumbledore much longer.
Solitaire
journeymom - Jul 12, 2006 8:52 pm (#2729 of 2969)
"This makes it sound like not more than a couple of weeks could have passed between the time Dumbledore was told the Potters were being targeted and the night they died." Solitaire
I thought that one of the complaints about Dumbledore is that he deliberates too long before deciding on a course of action. He knew that Voldemort was targeting the Potters for -a while- (I don't know how long) before they decided upon the Fidelius Charm.
Or I might be getting the scenario mixed up with the prophecy as opposed to LV targeting the Potters.
Solitaire - Jul 12, 2006 9:49 pm (#2730 of 2969)
I realize Voldemort had attempted to take out the Potters before--particularly if Sybill's prophecy was referring to three escapes they had made up to the point in time when she made the prophecy. I am talking about what Dumbledore did once he was certain Voldemort was after the Potters ... because Snape had told him. Surely he would not have waited two years to tell them this information!
Solitaire
Ann - Jul 13, 2006 4:32 am (#2731 of 2969)
Edited Jul 13, 2006 5:33 am
The times are simply inconsistent. JKR said in one of her interviews (the Edinburgh Book Fair, I think) that the Potters were planning to go into hiding at the time of Harry's christening--she said it was a small affair, with only one godfather, because of their situation (I think the question was about a godmother). On the other hand, in the discussion the trio overhears at the Three Broomsticks in PoA, it is explicitly said that Dumbledore told them as soon as his spy told him that they were being targeted, and told them that the Secret Keeper Charm would be their best plan. It's hard to imagine, though, that with that sort of warning they would have waited 18 months before performing it. And then in the Shrieking Shack scene, Sirius accuses Peter of having been Voldemort's spy for over a year (and he implicitly admits it). And since we've never heard about another spy for Dumbledore in Voldemort's camp, that sounds as if Snape alerted him by October 1980 that there was a spy, which means that Snape had gone to Dumbldore before that.
There's also Voldemort to consider. He hears the prophecy in October or November 1979, and I can't imagine that he's going to wait around. He may not know who's expecting a child at the end of July yet, but there are presumably a limited number of people who've defied him three times, and I think he's likely to have targeted them as soon as possible. Certainly I can't imagine him waiting around after the child has actually been born, and JKR's remarks (that the Potters were already planning to go into hiding at his birth) would suggest that.
This may be one of those authorial slip-ups....
Morlicar - Jul 13, 2006 4:50 am (#2732 of 2969)
Or, perhaps, they did go into hiding to protect Harry soon after Harry's birth (e.g. keeping a low profile to reduce the chance of a DE visit), but only decided that they needed the Fidelius Charm when Dumbledore was informed that Voldemort was specifically gunning for Harry.
wynnleaf - Jul 13, 2006 5:23 am (#2733 of 2969)
Edited Jul 13, 2006 6:26 am
Good posts, Ann.
In the discussion with Fudge in POA, McGonagall comments that DD was certain that someone was keeping LV informed as to the Potters movements. It that because of this, that he recommended the Fidelius Charm. I always pictured them as attempting to evade LV for some time, perhaps by moving around frequently, and the Fidelius Charm was to enable them to stay hidden in one spot.
I find it very interesting that DD offered to be the secret keeper, but James refused that offer, instead ending up with Peter Pettigrew, even though he knew that DD feared someone close to the Potters was passing info to LV. We don't know if James knew that DD's fears stemmed in part from a spy's information, but I can understand Snape's feeling that it was arrogance on James' part to choose one of the Marauders as a secret keeper even in the face of warnings. I expect that if McGonagall knew DD had offered to be secret keeper, Snape probably knew as well. I expect in Snape's view, James decision to disregard warnings about a weak link among his friends and to decline the offer of the most powerful trustworthy wizard to be secret keeper -- even at the risk of the lives of himself and his family -- are evidence of his great arrogance. And of course, those decisions lead to his own and Lily's deaths.
Honour - Jul 13, 2006 6:53 am (#2734 of 2969)
Hey there Wynnleaf, like father, like son... There are many occassions during the first 5 books that Harry demonstrates his 'not lack' of trust but 'choice of trusting' his friends Hermione and Ron rather than DD with whatever is ailing him at the time. It isn't until the HBP that you get the impression that Harry totally trusts DD.
wynnleaf - Jul 13, 2006 8:47 am (#2735 of 2969)
Edited Jul 13, 2006 9:49 am
I found a site that many of you may find helpful to bookmark. I won't leave the actual link, because it may link on to some objectionable things -- I just don't know. But if you Google, in quotations marks, "Professor Severus Snape's Quotes" you will get two links to a site that has ALL of the quotes from the texts of Books 1-4 that relate to Snape. I think under Google you'll get links to one or two of the pages, and the rest of links are at the bottom of the pages at the site. Look around and you'll see what I mean. There's a separate page for each of the 1st four books, with all of the text relating to Snape.
I found it very interesting to read through it. It's especially interesting to read it with a conscious effort to weed out the Harry point-of-view bias. When you do that, there are actually only a few places where Snape goes beyond the line of what a typical very strict teacher might say or do. And you can really see the degree of bias toward the students point of view. For instance, the students were "forced" to learn about antidotes. Neville getting detention of disembowling toads for melting down his cauldron was presented as though that was akin to torture. A potions essay assignment on poisons is described as nasty. The list can go on and on.
Also, if you look objectively and from the point of view of a strict teacher, most of the punishments (note, I said "most"), are not out of line, but All of the punishments as well as other actions by Snape are presented from the point of view of students who consider them unfair.
Anyway, it's a very interesting site, to see all those quotes together in one place. You might like to check it out.
Soul Search - Jul 13, 2006 9:02 am (#2736 of 2969)
I don't think Harry completely "trusted" Dumbledore through the first five books.
Harry really has little reason to fully trust Dumbledore. Nor, from Harry's viewpoint, does Dumbledore "trust" Harry. Full trust has to be mutual.
Harry finds out, from Hargid's visit, that Dumbledore left him with the Dursleys. Even when Molly wants him to live at the Burrow, Dumbledore won't let her. To Harry, this is a cruel punishment.
At the end of SS, Harry asks Dumbledore why Voldemort is after him, and Dumbledore wouldn't trust Harry enough tell him.
In CoS, Dumbledore threatens to expell him, so Harry doesn't confide in Dumbledore that he hears voices that no one else can hear.
In PoA, Harry discovers that everyone, including Dumbledore, have been keeping secrets from him.
In GoF, Dumbledore fails Harry, and Harry has to compete in the Tri-Wizard.
I think it is at the end of OotP, first when he confronts Voldemort, then when he tells Harry "everything," that Harry begins to trust Dumbledore.
Even in HBP Harry's trust of Dumbledore is not full. Harry keeps telling Dumbledore about Draco and Snape, but Dumbledore doesn't trust Harry enough to explain about Draco and why Dumbledore trusts Snape.
Solitaire - Jul 13, 2006 9:13 pm (#2737 of 2969)
We don't know if James knew that DD's fears stemmed in part from a spy's information
Are we ever told whether James does or does not know who gave Dumbledore the information? If he did know, it is understandable that he would eschew any help from Snape, as he may have considered it a trap. If the "traitor" Snape fingered was Sirius, I can imagine how angry and hurt James would be, even with Dumbledore. James was fiercely loyal to Sirius. It's too bad he didn't stick with Sirius ... all three Potters might still be alive.
Morlicar, I think you make sense.
Solitaire
wynnleaf - Jul 13, 2006 10:15 pm (#2738 of 2969)
Edited Jul 13, 2006 11:17 pm
According to the conversation in POA with Fudge, McGonagall and Hagrid describing what happened, there was only information that someone close to the Potters was giving info to LV about them. There was not a specific person mentioned and it doesn't sound like there was a specific person mentioned by DD or the spy.
In that conversation, we aren't specifically told who the spy was that brought this info to DD. It's easy to assume it's Snape, but even Snape doesn't say that it was his advice or information that James was rejecting.
Personally, I think it sounds downright foolish of James to have used Pettigrew as a secret keeper while rejecting the offer from Dumbledore, especially when he'd had a warning from DD that someone close to him might be passing info to LV. It's not like he was just risking his own safety, after all. He was risking the lives of his family as well. Loyalty to friends is one thing, but in the face of what was at risk, it sounds like James put his faith in his friends over his responsibility to his family.
Snape specifically says that James' willingness to believe that none of his friends could be a traitor, even with the warnings, was evidence of great arrogance. Without knowing what attitude that James had toward that decision, I wouldn't consider it actual arrogance, but I do think it shows that James' commitment to believe in the his friends had moved passed admirable loyalty to foolhardiness.
Solitaire - Jul 13, 2006 10:46 pm (#2739 of 2969)
Edited Jul 13, 2006 11:47 pm
It's a tough call, Wynnleaf. People denigrate Molly for believing the information that Hermione was two-timing Harry. However, they criticize James for his fierce loyalty to his friends ... and for believing in their loyalty to him instead of believing some nameless spy's information. In James's spot, I probably would have used Dumbledore ... but I'd have done it because I would not have wanted to endanger my friends. If Dumbledore had suggested himself for that reason, James might have agreed. His suggestion, however, that one of James's friends was a traitor was probably too much to take.
I will admit that Peter would not have been my first choice as secret-keeper, but then I have knowledge of his betrayal, so it is easy in retrospect to see him as a weak and spineless hanger-on who might be tempted by a better offer.
Solitaire
Angie - Jul 14, 2006 1:16 am (#2740 of 2969)
Yes Solitaire I agre. James is loyal and trusting to his friends - this reminds me of DD who can also be extremely trusting of people . I think it is admirable that James was loyal to his closest friends, he had faith in Sirius' plan that Peter would be the perfect SK as no one would suspect him. Also James was relatively young at the time, not that long out of Hogwarts, not suprising that he felt more affinity to his friends, who he probably spent much time with rather than the brilliant but I would guess rather distant and very busy former headmaster.
Dobby Socks - Jul 14, 2006 3:38 am (#2741 of 2969)
From one point of view, it may be admirable that James showed so much trust in his friends, and maybe DD was distant while they were at Hogwarts. At the same time, it must have been obvious that DD was the most powerful wizard next to LV. Why not use him as the secret keeper? Especially with so much at stake. Even if he hadn’t been warned that one of his friends was a spy for LV, if I were in his shoes I’d choose DD, no question. The lives of his family were at risk and I’m sure his friends would understand. To me, there’s no sense whatsoever in rejecting DD’s offer. James was probably reacting against the idea that one of his friends was a traitor, and rebelling against DD’s suggestion by demonstrating his full faith in them. Still though, I don’t think that’s an excuse when he had the most trustworthy and powerful person make the offer. I wouldn’t call his decision arrogance as much as pride, stubbornness, and a certain amount of immaturity that clouded his vision.
If he knew the information came from Snape this would certainly give him a further reason to turn down DD. However, we know that DD plays his cards close to his chest and doesn’t share information that isn’t absolutely necessary. I can’t see him naming his spy to James. Particularly since he’s aware of the animosity between the two (if, indeed, it was Severus.) He would be aware of the emotional complications involved.
Or, perhaps, they did go into hiding to protect Harry soon after Harry's birth (e.g. keeping a low profile to reduce the chance of a DE visit), but only decided that they needed the Fidelius Charm when Dumbledore was informed that Voldemort was specifically gunning for Harry. Morlicar, I agree that this seems to be the most likely scenario.
wynnleaf - Jul 14, 2006 5:30 am (#2742 of 2969)
Edited Jul 14, 2006 6:37 am
The big problem to me with James' decision isn't that he was loyal to his friends, but that he put his loyalty to his friends over the safety of his wife and child. Even on the barest outside chance that the information could be correct (that someone close to James could be giving info to LV), James should have been intent on avoiding that slight chance of risk to his family and used DD as secret keeper. Why should his decision be about protecting his friends? To me, that's the entire problem with James' decision. His relationship with his friends seemed to take a greater priority than ensuring the safety of his wife and baby.
Loyalty to ones friends is admirable. But it's not right to put one's faith in friends above ensuring the safety of his family. I mean, we're talking about the difference in considering the possibility of fallible friends and therefore choosing DD as secret keeper, versus the possibility of the deaths of your family. Which is more important?
In my opinion, James was not just wrong in hindsight. His decision put his friends over his family and was wrong. Even if he had turned out to be right about his friend's loyalty, it was still wrong to choose belief in their loyalty at the possible risk of death to his family.
It may be that Snape just hates James in general and sees this decision as one more example of James character, which he already saw in the worst light. But if Snape cared for Lily, then he'd likely see James decision in light of the considerations above, causing Snape to hate James all the more for putting his faith in the Marauders above the life of his wife and child.
Ann - Jul 14, 2006 6:13 am (#2743 of 2969)
Edited Jul 14, 2006 7:15 am
I agree, Wynnleaf, that putting your family at risk rather than allowing anyone to think for a moment that you distrusted any of your friends is rather cowardly. I mean, he would know that Dumbledore was (a) trustworthy and (b) unlikely to be captured by Voldemort and made to reveal the secret. Dumbledore was obviously the best choice. I wonder what Lily thought about it?
I agree with Sirius, too, when in the Shrieking Shack he says to Peter that he wonders why they never saw that he was the most likely to turn traitor. Peter seems to have won his place in the Marauders by his sycophantic admiration of Sirius and James. (Certainly we've seen nothing to indicate he had any other charms.) We're told that James, at least, outgrew his need to hex people and came to be somewhat ashamed of the showing off and (not to put too fine a point on it) cruelty that accompanied it. (Harry calls the detentions his father and Sirius earned that Snape makes him catalogue "petty misdeeds," but they sound fairly dire to me.) You would think that if James saw the error of his own behavior, he would have wondered about the boy who egged him on.
Mrs Brisbee - Jul 14, 2006 6:43 am (#2744 of 2969)
Wasn't it Lily and James's choice together as to who was trustworthy enough to be secret keeper? It's possible that James was domineering and Lily was a doormat-- we really don't know that much about them-- but as far as we know Lily trusted James friends, too (though apparently not any of her own **sigh**).
I can't see it as arrogance to trust in one's friends.
Solitaire - Jul 14, 2006 7:38 am (#2745 of 2969)
Edited Jul 14, 2006 8:40 am
I'm with Mrs. B here. Also, I can't help feeling that if James distrusted Dumbledore's advice about his friend, there must have been a reason other than arrogance. Perhaps Dumbledore wouldn't tell James the source of his information. This could have made him suspicious, particularly if he knew Snape had switched sides. Given the history between James and Snape, it is understandable that anything connected with Snape would be regarded with deepest suspicion ... and I can't help feeling that James knew Snape was somehow connected. This would certainly account for his remarks about James's arrogance concerning his friends. JM2K ... I know the Snape-lovers will never agree with anything I say.
Solitaire
Edit: I can't believe Lily was a doormat, if we take her comments to James in OotP as any indicator of her willingness to speak out.
Soul Search - Jul 14, 2006 7:38 am (#2746 of 2969)
Edited Jul 14, 2006 8:40 am
I think we do know that it was Snape who warned Dumbledore that one of James' friends was passing information to Voldemort. Snape thought it was Sirius, though.
(Snape, too, must have thought Pettigrew was beneath notice and, obviously, Snape was not so close to Voldemort at the time that he would have known for sure that it was Pettigrew.)
I think it was in one of the occlumency lessons. Snape accuses Harry of being arrogant, like his father. Harry responds, and Snape says that James was too arrogant to believe one of his friends was a traitor when he (Snape) told Dumbledore.
Snape trying to help James, and being snubbed for it, is probably significant to the backstory, if we just had a few more little bits of information to fill it in.
We do get enough to surmise that Snape's resentment of James, and therefore Harry, is related to this situation, at least in part. There must be more, though.
I think it was this comment of Snape's that added fuel to the Snape/Lily connection.
wynnleaf - Jul 14, 2006 8:23 am (#2747 of 2969)
Edited Jul 14, 2006 9:34 am
Also, I can't help feeling that if James distrusted Dumbledore's advice about his friend, there must have been a reason other than arrogance. Perhaps Dumbledore wouldn't tell James the source of his information. This could have made him suspicious, particularly if he knew Snape had switched sides. Given the history between James and Snape, it is understandable that anything connected with Snape would be regarded with deepest suspicion ... and I can't help feeling that James knew Snape was somehow connected.
Solitaire, I too, would not call James' attitude arrogance without some real evidence that he made his decision out of personal pride, disdain for other's opinions, etc. And we don't really have any evidence that those were his attitudes. Still, James' opinion of Snape -- even if he did think the info came from him -- should have had nothing at all to do with the choice. The choice was 1. use DD as a secret keeper (which is a completely safe choice and it makes no difference if Snape was correct, mistaken, or outright lying about a leak to LV), or 2. trust one of his friends for which there'd been at least some indication that one might be giving info to LV. While James' feelings about that decision could have been affected by his thoughts about Snape, the actual decision was no different regardless of Snape's trustworthiness -- a certainty with DD, versus some degree of uncertainty with a friend.
In effect, what James did was to choose to put the lives of his wife and child into the hands of Peter Pettigrew, rather than the hands of DD. If that wasn't out of arrogance (and probably wasn't), it was at least utterly foolish.
Because Snape was already so convinced that James often acted out of arrogance, he saw this decision as rooted in arrogance also. But Snape doesn't seem to ever see the Marauders actions in the light of foolishness or thoughtlessness, but exclusively from arrogance or other more negative characteristics.
On the other hand, Snape uses the word "arrogant" so often that I think his view of it is a lot broader than typical. That is, I think he often sees a decision where a person thinks their own decision is the right one to take, over those who are older, wiser, more experienced and more powerful (DD for instance) as being basically an arrogant decision. He also tends to treat any willingness to break rules as "arrogant." Though of course, he sort of picks and chooses whose "arrogance" to focus on. But overall, I think his view of what qualifies as arrogance is pretty broad.
I'm re-thinking. In some ways, considering how obvious Pettigrews lack of character is to we readers (even in the Snape's worst memory scene), there may have been at least a degree of arrogance, in that James apparently felt that nothing would sway Peter from his loyalty to James. It's one thing to think that about one's true close friends -- Sirius and Lupin. But I never got the impression that Pettigrew was more than a sort of "hanger on," following them around. Yet James must have felt completely confident of his loyalty. I can't quite fathom why, given what we've seen of Peter.
Snape of course, developed his opinions of James' decision while believing that it was really James' close friend Sirius who was the traitor.
Mrs Brisbee - Jul 14, 2006 9:00 am (#2748 of 2969)
Edited Jul 14, 2006 10:08 am
I'm with Mrs. B here. Also, I can't help feeling that if James distrusted Dumbledore's advice about his friend, there must have been a reason other than arrogance. --Solitaire
Heehee, actually I think I am with you on this one, since you said it first.
Still, James' opinion of Snape -- even if he did think the info came from him -- should have had nothing at all to do with the choice. The choice was 1. use DD as a secret keeper (which is a completely safe choice and it makes no difference if Snape was correct, mistaken, or outright lying about a leak to LV), or 2. trust one of his friends for which there'd been at least some indication that one might be giving info to LV. While James' feelings about that decision could have been affected by his thoughts about Snape, the actual decision was no different regardless of Snape's trustworthiness -- a certainty with DD, versus some degree of uncertainty with a friend. --wynnleaf
Actually, I don't think it was so clearcut as choice 1 good, choice 2 bad. As for DD automatically being the right choice, he was their Order leader but we have no evidence that the Potters were particularly close to him, or could even get access to him as their secret keeper if necessary. Dumbledore might be trustworthy, but he's a busy guy, he's at the forefront of the battle against Voldemort, and he also likes to play things close to his chest-- i.e., he might not think that what the Potters want is necessarily whats best for the Potters, and would control the situation but not necessarily give the Potters an explanation for his actions. I can really see why the Potters wouldn't want him for a secret keeper, regardless of how trustworthy he was. Under those dire circumstances, I'd want to keep some control over my own fate. There is a tendency for us to view Dumbledore, I think, as the Perfect Solution To All Problems, but maybe some of the characters have a slightly different viewpoint.
As for choice 2, trust a friend, we do have good evidence that it was Lupin they suspected, and acted on that suspicion by cutting him out of the loop, and switching secret keepers to Pettigrew without telling him. They were tragically mistaken, yes, but there is good evidence right there that they took the information seriously, and acted on it.
Because Snape was already so convinced that James often acted out of arrogance, he saw this decision as rooted in arrogance also. But Snape doesn't seem to ever see the Marauders actions in the light of foolishness or thoughtlessness, but exclusively from arrogance or other more negative characteristics.
That much I do agree on, as well as your interpretation of how Snape uses the word "arrogance".
journeymom - Jul 14, 2006 9:26 am (#2749 of 2969)
As far as Dumbledore is concerned, we've seen how he didn't share information with Harry and what a disaster that caused. It could be that he made suggestions to the Potters but didn't share why he thought so.
"I mean, he would know that Dumbledore was (a) trustworthy and (b) unlikely to be captured by Voldemort and made to reveal the secret. Dumbledore was obviously the best choice. I wonder what Lily thought about it? " -Ann
Yes, I wonder about Lily, too. I don't think she has to be a doormat in this scenario. It's possible that she simply disagreed with James about who the SK should be, but he proceeded without her. That would certainly be very arrogant of him.
haymoni - Jul 14, 2006 10:04 am (#2750 of 2969)
Lily may have been fine with Sirius being the Secret Keeper. She may have been standing right there when Sirius made his suggestion to change to Peter. It does sound like a reasonable plan - why would Voldy choose Peter over Sirius?
They couldn't have known that Peter was going to "rat" them out, although I still think I would wonder about anyone whose animagus turned out to be a rat!
I would have preferred Dumbledore over Sirius, but that's just me.
Edited Jul 11, 2006 11:24 am
Use formal Mr./Mrs./Miss (note, no MS.) when in a group or making a reference about someone in a conversation. ... Use first name when one-to-one.
I think this mostly fits, Soul Search, and you are certainly correct about the long-lost formalities ... but there do seem to be some exceptions. Below are a few I could remember ...
In PoA, when Dumbledore is in the infirmary with Harry, and Hermione, we see the following exceptions:
(Speaking about them) -- "I would like to speak to Harry and Hermione alone," said Dumbledore abruptly. "Cornelius, Severus, Poppy -- please leave us."
(Speaking to them) -- "I am going to lock you in. It is --" he consulted his watch, "five minutes to midnight. Miss Granger, three turns should do it. Good luck."
In GoF, after Harry has snooped in the Pensieve, Dumbledore refers to Neville by his first name: Dumbledore gave Harry a very sharp look. "Has Neville never told you why he has been brought up by his grandmother?" he said.
I'm not sure where I'm going with all this ... and I suppose it really belongs on Dumbledore's thread, anyway. I just thought it was interesting.
Along this same idea, something else struck me ... Doesn't Snape usually refer to Harry as just "Potter"--whether speaking to him or about him--without the Mr. he uses with the other boys? I believe there are probably some early exceptions, but he generally does not seem to afford Harry any of his usual "courtesies." It just seems one more example of Snape going out of his way to denigrate Harry. You know, Uncle Vernon should meet Snape. If he were to share his sentiments about Harry, he might redeem the magical population in Uncle Vernon's eyes.
Solitaire
journeymom - Jul 11, 2006 11:13 am (#2712 of 2969)
Sorry to interrupt, but I'm suffering from fanfic contamination, I think. Did Snape spend time in Azkaban?
haymoni - Jul 11, 2006 11:29 am (#2713 of 2969)
Not that I recall. Check with Gina.
journeymom [/b]- Jul 11, 2006 12:51 pm (#2714 of 2969)
I checked Snape's time-line on the Lexicon, no he didn't spend any time in Azkaban. That was the point of Dumbledore vouching for him, I suppose.
wynnleaf - Jul 11, 2006 1:16 pm (#2715 of 2969)
Sorry to interrupt, but I'm suffering from fanfic contamination, I think. Did Snape spend time in Azkaban?
I'm not sure that we actually know the answer to this question. Yes, DD vouched for Snape, presumably sometime shortly after LV's fall at Godric's Hollow. But we don't at what point DD had to vouch for Snape.
DD could have approached the MOM first, explaining that Snape was a spy and not to go after him as a DE.
Or, Snape could have been accused by another DE before the MOM, and DD could have then come forward to vouch for Snape's activities as a spy.
If the former occurred, we don't know if Snape stayed completely out of Azkaban, or if he was arrested first and then DD came to his support.
If we never learn any more about it, then in all probability, Snape never went into Azkaban at all. But since we haven't gotten a lot of information about exactly how it all happened, we just don't know.
On the other hand, perhaps I'm mistaken and someone remembers a point in the text where we get definite info about this.
journeymom - Jul 11, 2006 1:30 pm (#2716 of 2969)
Well, darn you wynnleaf, you're making it a gray issue instead of a nice, tidy black and white, yes or no issue!
Soul Search - Jul 11, 2006 2:40 pm (#2717 of 2969)
Edited Jul 11, 2006 3:43 pm
I think in the GoF pensive scene, when Karkaroff names Snape, Dumbledore immediately speaks up and says Snape turned spy before Voldemort's downfall and had been cleared by the council. It is my understanding that the pensive scene was shortly after Godric's Hollow, so there wouldn't have been much time for any accusations of Snape to come before the council from another DE's testimony.
I do wonder that Dumbledore spoke up, as if Crouch didn't know about it.
There is still some doubt if Snape had any kind of formal arrest and hearing, but I would vote for no time in Azkaban.
Solitaire - Jul 11, 2006 2:50 pm (#2718 of 2969)
The way I understood it from the Pensieve scene in GoF, Snape came to Dumbledore voluntarily, before any accusations or charges of involvement with the DEs had even been leveled. I got the idea that Dumbledore immediately took him in at Hogwarts. JM2K, of course ...
Solitaire
Vulture - Jul 11, 2006 3:17 pm (#2719 of 2969)
Edited Jul 11, 2006 4:26 pm
I'm inclined to think Snape never went to Azkaban, or if he did at all, it was probably on the same basis as Hagrid in Book 2, for a few nights while under suspicion. In "Spinner's End", he says that he took up the Hogwarts post "on the Dark Lord's orders" _ i.e. before Voldemort fell. In Book 4, Dumbledore says that Snape returned to "our side" before Voldemort fell, and "turned spy for us". In Book 6, we're told that Snape was the Hog's Head eavesdropper referred to in Book 5, and that Snape was looking for a job at Hogwarts at the time. Given that Snape was "thrown from the building" (as stated, without naming him, in Book 5) he could not have later got the job after all without, as he put it himself, spinning Dumbledore a tale of deepest remorse (whether genuine or not, is not my point here). Also, Dumbledore, like most anti-Voldemort wizards, would be more sceptical of those, like Lucius Malfoy, who deserted Voldemort after he had fallen.
So, my point with all this is :
(1) no-one escaped from Azkaban before Sirius, and the Ministry weren't much in the mood for letting out suspects during the first Voldemort war, so it's unlikely that Snape was ever in Azkaban before he came to Hogwarts;
(2) from the crowded nature of the events leading up to his Hogwarts job, I think it unlikely that he was arrested during them;
(3) once he was in Hogwarts, he was under Dumbledore's protection. He himself says to Bellatrix in "Spinner's End" that "it was only Dumbledore's protection that was keeping me out of Azkaban". He also defends himself against Bellatrix's comparisons of him and her in terms that indicate that he was never in Azkaban _ if he had been there while she was, I think he would have mentioned it, or she would have known: Sirius, after all seemed to know about other prisoners.
=======================================================================================================
By the way, that phrase about "spinning a tale of deepest remorse" reminds me that I keep meaning to mention the possible double meaning in the chapter title "Spinner's End" _ i.e. that the Vow is what finally stops Snape the Spinner from spinning his webs. I suppose this has been noticed before ? (I may even have mentioned it before, myself !!)
=======================================================================================================
Along this same idea, something else struck me ... Doesn't Snape usually refer to Harry as just "Potter"--whether speaking to him or about him--without the Mr. he uses with the other boys? I believe there are probably some early exceptions, but he generally does not seem to afford Harry any of his usual "courtesies." It just seems one more example of Snape going out of his way to denigrate Harry. (Solitaire Jul 11, 2006 11:21 am (#2711))
In fairness to Snape (Good God, what's happening to me ?!!), I think he refers to, and addresses, all male students by their surnames without the "Mr.". The one exception is Draco, whom we hear him addressing by his first name _ but even that is outside the class situation, as far as I recall. He does address female students with "Miss", as in when he takes points from Hermione in Book 3 "for being an insufferable know-it-all".
As for Dumbledore, he seems to use "Mr." and "Miss" to students in formal school and class situations, particularly when other teachers or adults are present. On the other hand, he usually addresses adults by their first names. In one-to-one situations, or informal ones, he sometimes addresses students by their first-name terms.
I think (this bit is just me reading his character _ no evidence as such) it comes down to what Dumbledore feels is best for the student in the particular situation. For example, when he says to Harry, "Has Neville never told you why he has been brought up by his grandmother?", I think that it's best at that point to talk as if Neville is Harry's friend, rather than "Mr. Longbottom". Again, on the Tower in Book 6, I think his priority, when calling Malfoy "Draco", is to relax the situation.
Why does he say "Miss Granger, three turns should do it. Good luck" in Book 3 ? Well, it probably doesn't matter much, but (1) Miss Granger herself (especially in the early books) prefers being all-present-and-correct with teachers, and (2) the "Miss Granger" phrase does communicate a certain authority, and therefore urgency, which is necessary in the situation. That is to say (really nit-picky, this !!), necessary for the particular situation between Dumbledore and Hermione at that moment. (And yes, I realise that Dumbledore would not have called Harry "Mr. Potter".)
When Dumbledore says "Not unlike yourself and Mr. Malfoy" in Book 1, he is doing several things with one simple phrase. For one thing, he is trying to bring Harry's view of Snape a bit more down to earth _ Harry's "he hates me because he hated my father" gives a much harsher and more emphatic picture than Dumbledore's answer. Secondly, the "Mr. Malfoy" is a deliberate courtesy to someone whom Harry doesn't feel like being routinely courteous to _ in Dumbledore's school, everyone has equal rights. Thirdly, the way Dumbledore's answer is separated into two sentences _ not "Well, they did rather detest each other, not unlike yourself and Mr. Malfoy.", but "Well, they did rather detest each other. Not unlike yourself and Mr. Malfoy." _ has a definite effect: the first sentence agrees with what Quirrell told Harry, but (unlike Quirrell's "They loathed each other") has an indulgent, almost benevolent tone to it that reminds us that we're talking about two schoolboys. Then the second sentence reminds Harry that we all have our quarrels and enmities.
Of course, even Dumbledore cannot change the one clear injustice in the situation _ Snape's choice to take out his feelings against James on James's son.
Solitaire - Jul 11, 2006 3:28 pm (#2720 of 2969)
In fairness to Snape (Good God, what's happening to me ?!!)
LOL Vulture! I felt the same way in my previous post! hehe
Choices - Jul 11, 2006 5:38 pm (#2721 of 2969)
In Snape's conversation with Bellatrix and Narcissa at Spinner's End, I think it is made pretty clear that Snape did not do any time in Azkaban.
journeymom - Jul 11, 2006 7:27 pm (#2722 of 2969)
Ah see, there it is, Choices. Thanks.
Todd Watts - Jul 12, 2006 11:05 am (#2723 of 2969)
I have a question. How did Snape know about the battle that Draco and Harry were having in the bathroom. Does the Unbreakable have a warning that the one under protection is in danager. This just didn't set right with me. Why was it Snape that came in? Another Question, why was Snape misleading Bella at Spinners End about Harry's abilities, he states that Harry is average. We know, and so does Snape all the things Harry has done (The Patronus?, the Dementors, rescuing Sirius, etc) He wanted Bella to think less of Harry and Dumbledore
What do you guys think? Thanks,
Choices - Jul 12, 2006 11:14 am (#2724 of 2969)
Todd Watts - "why was Snape misleading Bella at Spinners End about Harry's abilities, he states that Harry is average."
I think Snape knows that the best thing your enemy can do is to underestimate his opponent's abilities.
wynnleaf - Jul 12, 2006 11:27 am (#2725 of 2969)
Todd Watts,
I agree that Snape was intentionally misinforming Bella about both Harry and DD's abilities at Spinners End.
On why Snape showed up in the bathrooms during the Sectumsempra chapter... I have given that some thought in the past. My favorite theory is that Snape had set some sort of watch over Draco. Whether due to the Vow, or simply because he was trying to figure out exactly what Draco's plans were, I think Snape was watching Draco as closely or even more closely than Harry. After all, Harry didn't know what Draco was up to. Snape at least knew that he was trying to kill DD. Anyway, I thought that there could be several ways Snape could keep a watch on Draco, and that might include a method that would tell him that Harry had entered into the bathrooms as well. So he could have been going toward the bathrooms, and been almost there, at the moment Moaning Myrtle came out into the hall screaming "murder!"
An example of a way to watch Draco could include something akin to the Marauder's Map. Or there could be other magical means. Since DD was supporting Snape's attempts to discover what Draco was up to, DD could have helped Snape with the magical means to watch Draco.
Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 12, 2006 2:11 pm (#2726 of 2969)
Todd Watts I think Snape truly believes Harry is average. I don't think Snape wants to admit anything positive about Harry. No matter who he is talking to. If we compare Harry to Snape, James or Sirius he is pretty average academically. LPO
Ann - Jul 12, 2006 3:34 pm (#2727 of 2969)
Edited Jul 12, 2006 4:38 pm
I agree with those of you who say that Snape thinks of Harry as average. He certainly hasn't done well in Potions, and by the time Snape begins teaching him in Defense, his opinion of the kid is pretty well set. When I first read in HBP that Snape had been given the Defense position at last, I expected that he would be surprised to observe that Harry was actually pretty good at it, and that this would be the beginning of a rapprochement between the two--which I think has to happen eventually anyway. But, of course, I was wrong.
As for Snape in Azkaban: He started at Hogwarts in September of 1981, and the Potters were killed two months later. I think at this point he'd been working for Dumbledore as a spy for almost two years. (The prophecy happened soon after Harry's conception in October 1979, since Trelawney has been teaching two years longer than Snape when Umbridge asks them both in OotP, and I think Snape went to Dumbledore quite soon afterwards.) Dumbledore had to vouch for him, so presumably someone must have fingered him as a DE, and it's possible he spent time in Azkaban.
But if so, it must have been very brief; and in fact I bet he didn't, since he wouldn't have arrived until Sirius was already there, and Sirius seems to have kept fairly careful tabs on arrivals. Sirius also says that, as far as he knows (and despite his contacts) Snape was never accused of being a DE, so it sounds unlikely that there was any sort of formal trial.
Of course, Sirius doesn't know about the Dark Mark, either--but I really wonder if anyone does, except Dumbledore, before Snape's dramatic gesture to Fudge. Snape and Kakaroff are both Death Eaters, as is Moody-Crouch Jr. ("spots that don't come off"), and no one else seems to know that they're all branded. You'd think the Minister of Magic, of all people, would know; and Sirius was an Order member, so it can't have been widely known among them. And, in fact, it would have been a fool-proof way to counter the Imperius defense (if they'd checked Malfoy's arm) or other uncertainty (Crouch Jr.). If it was not known, Snape's revealing it, only moments before he returns to Voldemort's fold and spying for the order, may have been a much more significant and brave act than most of us have seen it as. (I still view this one of the most important reasons to believe that Snape Is Good.)
Of course, you could argue that Sirius is a bit oblivious about Snape, since he'd actually been teaching at Hogwarts for two months before Sirius was imprisoned (and he says in both GoF and OotP that he didn't know this). But for some reason this looks more like a JKR error to me than the other, which is quite pointed. (She loves to do things like that: the spell to turn the rat yellow doesn't work because he's not a rat; Aurors don't know about the Dark Mark, because Crouch-Moody isn't really an Auror; and Harry's "Accio Horcrux" spell is unsuccessful because the locket isn't a Horcrux.
Solitaire - Jul 12, 2006 5:02 pm (#2728 of 2969)
I thought the Potters went into hiding under the Fidelius Charm as soon as they found out they were being targeted. Surely Dumbledore would have told them they were in danger as soon as Snape told him.
In PoA, Fudge says following: "And then, barely a week after the Fidelius Charm had been performed --"
"Black betrayed them?" breathed Madam Rosmerta.
"He did indeed ..."
This makes it sound like not more than a couple of weeks could have passed between the time Dumbledore was told the Potters were being targeted and the night they died. If it was that particular piece of information which made Snape defect from Voldemort--as many believe is the case--then it seems unlikely that he could have been working for Dumbledore much longer.
Solitaire
journeymom - Jul 12, 2006 8:52 pm (#2729 of 2969)
"This makes it sound like not more than a couple of weeks could have passed between the time Dumbledore was told the Potters were being targeted and the night they died." Solitaire
I thought that one of the complaints about Dumbledore is that he deliberates too long before deciding on a course of action. He knew that Voldemort was targeting the Potters for -a while- (I don't know how long) before they decided upon the Fidelius Charm.
Or I might be getting the scenario mixed up with the prophecy as opposed to LV targeting the Potters.
Solitaire - Jul 12, 2006 9:49 pm (#2730 of 2969)
I realize Voldemort had attempted to take out the Potters before--particularly if Sybill's prophecy was referring to three escapes they had made up to the point in time when she made the prophecy. I am talking about what Dumbledore did once he was certain Voldemort was after the Potters ... because Snape had told him. Surely he would not have waited two years to tell them this information!
Solitaire
Ann - Jul 13, 2006 4:32 am (#2731 of 2969)
Edited Jul 13, 2006 5:33 am
The times are simply inconsistent. JKR said in one of her interviews (the Edinburgh Book Fair, I think) that the Potters were planning to go into hiding at the time of Harry's christening--she said it was a small affair, with only one godfather, because of their situation (I think the question was about a godmother). On the other hand, in the discussion the trio overhears at the Three Broomsticks in PoA, it is explicitly said that Dumbledore told them as soon as his spy told him that they were being targeted, and told them that the Secret Keeper Charm would be their best plan. It's hard to imagine, though, that with that sort of warning they would have waited 18 months before performing it. And then in the Shrieking Shack scene, Sirius accuses Peter of having been Voldemort's spy for over a year (and he implicitly admits it). And since we've never heard about another spy for Dumbledore in Voldemort's camp, that sounds as if Snape alerted him by October 1980 that there was a spy, which means that Snape had gone to Dumbldore before that.
There's also Voldemort to consider. He hears the prophecy in October or November 1979, and I can't imagine that he's going to wait around. He may not know who's expecting a child at the end of July yet, but there are presumably a limited number of people who've defied him three times, and I think he's likely to have targeted them as soon as possible. Certainly I can't imagine him waiting around after the child has actually been born, and JKR's remarks (that the Potters were already planning to go into hiding at his birth) would suggest that.
This may be one of those authorial slip-ups....
Morlicar - Jul 13, 2006 4:50 am (#2732 of 2969)
Or, perhaps, they did go into hiding to protect Harry soon after Harry's birth (e.g. keeping a low profile to reduce the chance of a DE visit), but only decided that they needed the Fidelius Charm when Dumbledore was informed that Voldemort was specifically gunning for Harry.
wynnleaf - Jul 13, 2006 5:23 am (#2733 of 2969)
Edited Jul 13, 2006 6:26 am
Good posts, Ann.
In the discussion with Fudge in POA, McGonagall comments that DD was certain that someone was keeping LV informed as to the Potters movements. It that because of this, that he recommended the Fidelius Charm. I always pictured them as attempting to evade LV for some time, perhaps by moving around frequently, and the Fidelius Charm was to enable them to stay hidden in one spot.
I find it very interesting that DD offered to be the secret keeper, but James refused that offer, instead ending up with Peter Pettigrew, even though he knew that DD feared someone close to the Potters was passing info to LV. We don't know if James knew that DD's fears stemmed in part from a spy's information, but I can understand Snape's feeling that it was arrogance on James' part to choose one of the Marauders as a secret keeper even in the face of warnings. I expect that if McGonagall knew DD had offered to be secret keeper, Snape probably knew as well. I expect in Snape's view, James decision to disregard warnings about a weak link among his friends and to decline the offer of the most powerful trustworthy wizard to be secret keeper -- even at the risk of the lives of himself and his family -- are evidence of his great arrogance. And of course, those decisions lead to his own and Lily's deaths.
Honour - Jul 13, 2006 6:53 am (#2734 of 2969)
Hey there Wynnleaf, like father, like son... There are many occassions during the first 5 books that Harry demonstrates his 'not lack' of trust but 'choice of trusting' his friends Hermione and Ron rather than DD with whatever is ailing him at the time. It isn't until the HBP that you get the impression that Harry totally trusts DD.
wynnleaf - Jul 13, 2006 8:47 am (#2735 of 2969)
Edited Jul 13, 2006 9:49 am
I found a site that many of you may find helpful to bookmark. I won't leave the actual link, because it may link on to some objectionable things -- I just don't know. But if you Google, in quotations marks, "Professor Severus Snape's Quotes" you will get two links to a site that has ALL of the quotes from the texts of Books 1-4 that relate to Snape. I think under Google you'll get links to one or two of the pages, and the rest of links are at the bottom of the pages at the site. Look around and you'll see what I mean. There's a separate page for each of the 1st four books, with all of the text relating to Snape.
I found it very interesting to read through it. It's especially interesting to read it with a conscious effort to weed out the Harry point-of-view bias. When you do that, there are actually only a few places where Snape goes beyond the line of what a typical very strict teacher might say or do. And you can really see the degree of bias toward the students point of view. For instance, the students were "forced" to learn about antidotes. Neville getting detention of disembowling toads for melting down his cauldron was presented as though that was akin to torture. A potions essay assignment on poisons is described as nasty. The list can go on and on.
Also, if you look objectively and from the point of view of a strict teacher, most of the punishments (note, I said "most"), are not out of line, but All of the punishments as well as other actions by Snape are presented from the point of view of students who consider them unfair.
Anyway, it's a very interesting site, to see all those quotes together in one place. You might like to check it out.
Soul Search - Jul 13, 2006 9:02 am (#2736 of 2969)
I don't think Harry completely "trusted" Dumbledore through the first five books.
Harry really has little reason to fully trust Dumbledore. Nor, from Harry's viewpoint, does Dumbledore "trust" Harry. Full trust has to be mutual.
Harry finds out, from Hargid's visit, that Dumbledore left him with the Dursleys. Even when Molly wants him to live at the Burrow, Dumbledore won't let her. To Harry, this is a cruel punishment.
At the end of SS, Harry asks Dumbledore why Voldemort is after him, and Dumbledore wouldn't trust Harry enough tell him.
In CoS, Dumbledore threatens to expell him, so Harry doesn't confide in Dumbledore that he hears voices that no one else can hear.
In PoA, Harry discovers that everyone, including Dumbledore, have been keeping secrets from him.
In GoF, Dumbledore fails Harry, and Harry has to compete in the Tri-Wizard.
I think it is at the end of OotP, first when he confronts Voldemort, then when he tells Harry "everything," that Harry begins to trust Dumbledore.
Even in HBP Harry's trust of Dumbledore is not full. Harry keeps telling Dumbledore about Draco and Snape, but Dumbledore doesn't trust Harry enough to explain about Draco and why Dumbledore trusts Snape.
Solitaire - Jul 13, 2006 9:13 pm (#2737 of 2969)
We don't know if James knew that DD's fears stemmed in part from a spy's information
Are we ever told whether James does or does not know who gave Dumbledore the information? If he did know, it is understandable that he would eschew any help from Snape, as he may have considered it a trap. If the "traitor" Snape fingered was Sirius, I can imagine how angry and hurt James would be, even with Dumbledore. James was fiercely loyal to Sirius. It's too bad he didn't stick with Sirius ... all three Potters might still be alive.
Morlicar, I think you make sense.
Solitaire
wynnleaf - Jul 13, 2006 10:15 pm (#2738 of 2969)
Edited Jul 13, 2006 11:17 pm
According to the conversation in POA with Fudge, McGonagall and Hagrid describing what happened, there was only information that someone close to the Potters was giving info to LV about them. There was not a specific person mentioned and it doesn't sound like there was a specific person mentioned by DD or the spy.
In that conversation, we aren't specifically told who the spy was that brought this info to DD. It's easy to assume it's Snape, but even Snape doesn't say that it was his advice or information that James was rejecting.
Personally, I think it sounds downright foolish of James to have used Pettigrew as a secret keeper while rejecting the offer from Dumbledore, especially when he'd had a warning from DD that someone close to him might be passing info to LV. It's not like he was just risking his own safety, after all. He was risking the lives of his family as well. Loyalty to friends is one thing, but in the face of what was at risk, it sounds like James put his faith in his friends over his responsibility to his family.
Snape specifically says that James' willingness to believe that none of his friends could be a traitor, even with the warnings, was evidence of great arrogance. Without knowing what attitude that James had toward that decision, I wouldn't consider it actual arrogance, but I do think it shows that James' commitment to believe in the his friends had moved passed admirable loyalty to foolhardiness.
Solitaire - Jul 13, 2006 10:46 pm (#2739 of 2969)
Edited Jul 13, 2006 11:47 pm
It's a tough call, Wynnleaf. People denigrate Molly for believing the information that Hermione was two-timing Harry. However, they criticize James for his fierce loyalty to his friends ... and for believing in their loyalty to him instead of believing some nameless spy's information. In James's spot, I probably would have used Dumbledore ... but I'd have done it because I would not have wanted to endanger my friends. If Dumbledore had suggested himself for that reason, James might have agreed. His suggestion, however, that one of James's friends was a traitor was probably too much to take.
I will admit that Peter would not have been my first choice as secret-keeper, but then I have knowledge of his betrayal, so it is easy in retrospect to see him as a weak and spineless hanger-on who might be tempted by a better offer.
Solitaire
Angie - Jul 14, 2006 1:16 am (#2740 of 2969)
Yes Solitaire I agre. James is loyal and trusting to his friends - this reminds me of DD who can also be extremely trusting of people . I think it is admirable that James was loyal to his closest friends, he had faith in Sirius' plan that Peter would be the perfect SK as no one would suspect him. Also James was relatively young at the time, not that long out of Hogwarts, not suprising that he felt more affinity to his friends, who he probably spent much time with rather than the brilliant but I would guess rather distant and very busy former headmaster.
Dobby Socks - Jul 14, 2006 3:38 am (#2741 of 2969)
From one point of view, it may be admirable that James showed so much trust in his friends, and maybe DD was distant while they were at Hogwarts. At the same time, it must have been obvious that DD was the most powerful wizard next to LV. Why not use him as the secret keeper? Especially with so much at stake. Even if he hadn’t been warned that one of his friends was a spy for LV, if I were in his shoes I’d choose DD, no question. The lives of his family were at risk and I’m sure his friends would understand. To me, there’s no sense whatsoever in rejecting DD’s offer. James was probably reacting against the idea that one of his friends was a traitor, and rebelling against DD’s suggestion by demonstrating his full faith in them. Still though, I don’t think that’s an excuse when he had the most trustworthy and powerful person make the offer. I wouldn’t call his decision arrogance as much as pride, stubbornness, and a certain amount of immaturity that clouded his vision.
If he knew the information came from Snape this would certainly give him a further reason to turn down DD. However, we know that DD plays his cards close to his chest and doesn’t share information that isn’t absolutely necessary. I can’t see him naming his spy to James. Particularly since he’s aware of the animosity between the two (if, indeed, it was Severus.) He would be aware of the emotional complications involved.
Or, perhaps, they did go into hiding to protect Harry soon after Harry's birth (e.g. keeping a low profile to reduce the chance of a DE visit), but only decided that they needed the Fidelius Charm when Dumbledore was informed that Voldemort was specifically gunning for Harry. Morlicar, I agree that this seems to be the most likely scenario.
wynnleaf - Jul 14, 2006 5:30 am (#2742 of 2969)
Edited Jul 14, 2006 6:37 am
The big problem to me with James' decision isn't that he was loyal to his friends, but that he put his loyalty to his friends over the safety of his wife and child. Even on the barest outside chance that the information could be correct (that someone close to James could be giving info to LV), James should have been intent on avoiding that slight chance of risk to his family and used DD as secret keeper. Why should his decision be about protecting his friends? To me, that's the entire problem with James' decision. His relationship with his friends seemed to take a greater priority than ensuring the safety of his wife and baby.
Loyalty to ones friends is admirable. But it's not right to put one's faith in friends above ensuring the safety of his family. I mean, we're talking about the difference in considering the possibility of fallible friends and therefore choosing DD as secret keeper, versus the possibility of the deaths of your family. Which is more important?
In my opinion, James was not just wrong in hindsight. His decision put his friends over his family and was wrong. Even if he had turned out to be right about his friend's loyalty, it was still wrong to choose belief in their loyalty at the possible risk of death to his family.
It may be that Snape just hates James in general and sees this decision as one more example of James character, which he already saw in the worst light. But if Snape cared for Lily, then he'd likely see James decision in light of the considerations above, causing Snape to hate James all the more for putting his faith in the Marauders above the life of his wife and child.
Ann - Jul 14, 2006 6:13 am (#2743 of 2969)
Edited Jul 14, 2006 7:15 am
I agree, Wynnleaf, that putting your family at risk rather than allowing anyone to think for a moment that you distrusted any of your friends is rather cowardly. I mean, he would know that Dumbledore was (a) trustworthy and (b) unlikely to be captured by Voldemort and made to reveal the secret. Dumbledore was obviously the best choice. I wonder what Lily thought about it?
I agree with Sirius, too, when in the Shrieking Shack he says to Peter that he wonders why they never saw that he was the most likely to turn traitor. Peter seems to have won his place in the Marauders by his sycophantic admiration of Sirius and James. (Certainly we've seen nothing to indicate he had any other charms.) We're told that James, at least, outgrew his need to hex people and came to be somewhat ashamed of the showing off and (not to put too fine a point on it) cruelty that accompanied it. (Harry calls the detentions his father and Sirius earned that Snape makes him catalogue "petty misdeeds," but they sound fairly dire to me.) You would think that if James saw the error of his own behavior, he would have wondered about the boy who egged him on.
Mrs Brisbee - Jul 14, 2006 6:43 am (#2744 of 2969)
Wasn't it Lily and James's choice together as to who was trustworthy enough to be secret keeper? It's possible that James was domineering and Lily was a doormat-- we really don't know that much about them-- but as far as we know Lily trusted James friends, too (though apparently not any of her own **sigh**).
I can't see it as arrogance to trust in one's friends.
Solitaire - Jul 14, 2006 7:38 am (#2745 of 2969)
Edited Jul 14, 2006 8:40 am
I'm with Mrs. B here. Also, I can't help feeling that if James distrusted Dumbledore's advice about his friend, there must have been a reason other than arrogance. Perhaps Dumbledore wouldn't tell James the source of his information. This could have made him suspicious, particularly if he knew Snape had switched sides. Given the history between James and Snape, it is understandable that anything connected with Snape would be regarded with deepest suspicion ... and I can't help feeling that James knew Snape was somehow connected. This would certainly account for his remarks about James's arrogance concerning his friends. JM2K ... I know the Snape-lovers will never agree with anything I say.
Solitaire
Edit: I can't believe Lily was a doormat, if we take her comments to James in OotP as any indicator of her willingness to speak out.
Soul Search - Jul 14, 2006 7:38 am (#2746 of 2969)
Edited Jul 14, 2006 8:40 am
I think we do know that it was Snape who warned Dumbledore that one of James' friends was passing information to Voldemort. Snape thought it was Sirius, though.
(Snape, too, must have thought Pettigrew was beneath notice and, obviously, Snape was not so close to Voldemort at the time that he would have known for sure that it was Pettigrew.)
I think it was in one of the occlumency lessons. Snape accuses Harry of being arrogant, like his father. Harry responds, and Snape says that James was too arrogant to believe one of his friends was a traitor when he (Snape) told Dumbledore.
Snape trying to help James, and being snubbed for it, is probably significant to the backstory, if we just had a few more little bits of information to fill it in.
We do get enough to surmise that Snape's resentment of James, and therefore Harry, is related to this situation, at least in part. There must be more, though.
I think it was this comment of Snape's that added fuel to the Snape/Lily connection.
wynnleaf - Jul 14, 2006 8:23 am (#2747 of 2969)
Edited Jul 14, 2006 9:34 am
Also, I can't help feeling that if James distrusted Dumbledore's advice about his friend, there must have been a reason other than arrogance. Perhaps Dumbledore wouldn't tell James the source of his information. This could have made him suspicious, particularly if he knew Snape had switched sides. Given the history between James and Snape, it is understandable that anything connected with Snape would be regarded with deepest suspicion ... and I can't help feeling that James knew Snape was somehow connected.
Solitaire, I too, would not call James' attitude arrogance without some real evidence that he made his decision out of personal pride, disdain for other's opinions, etc. And we don't really have any evidence that those were his attitudes. Still, James' opinion of Snape -- even if he did think the info came from him -- should have had nothing at all to do with the choice. The choice was 1. use DD as a secret keeper (which is a completely safe choice and it makes no difference if Snape was correct, mistaken, or outright lying about a leak to LV), or 2. trust one of his friends for which there'd been at least some indication that one might be giving info to LV. While James' feelings about that decision could have been affected by his thoughts about Snape, the actual decision was no different regardless of Snape's trustworthiness -- a certainty with DD, versus some degree of uncertainty with a friend.
In effect, what James did was to choose to put the lives of his wife and child into the hands of Peter Pettigrew, rather than the hands of DD. If that wasn't out of arrogance (and probably wasn't), it was at least utterly foolish.
Because Snape was already so convinced that James often acted out of arrogance, he saw this decision as rooted in arrogance also. But Snape doesn't seem to ever see the Marauders actions in the light of foolishness or thoughtlessness, but exclusively from arrogance or other more negative characteristics.
On the other hand, Snape uses the word "arrogant" so often that I think his view of it is a lot broader than typical. That is, I think he often sees a decision where a person thinks their own decision is the right one to take, over those who are older, wiser, more experienced and more powerful (DD for instance) as being basically an arrogant decision. He also tends to treat any willingness to break rules as "arrogant." Though of course, he sort of picks and chooses whose "arrogance" to focus on. But overall, I think his view of what qualifies as arrogance is pretty broad.
I'm re-thinking. In some ways, considering how obvious Pettigrews lack of character is to we readers (even in the Snape's worst memory scene), there may have been at least a degree of arrogance, in that James apparently felt that nothing would sway Peter from his loyalty to James. It's one thing to think that about one's true close friends -- Sirius and Lupin. But I never got the impression that Pettigrew was more than a sort of "hanger on," following them around. Yet James must have felt completely confident of his loyalty. I can't quite fathom why, given what we've seen of Peter.
Snape of course, developed his opinions of James' decision while believing that it was really James' close friend Sirius who was the traitor.
Mrs Brisbee - Jul 14, 2006 9:00 am (#2748 of 2969)
Edited Jul 14, 2006 10:08 am
I'm with Mrs. B here. Also, I can't help feeling that if James distrusted Dumbledore's advice about his friend, there must have been a reason other than arrogance. --Solitaire
Heehee, actually I think I am with you on this one, since you said it first.
Still, James' opinion of Snape -- even if he did think the info came from him -- should have had nothing at all to do with the choice. The choice was 1. use DD as a secret keeper (which is a completely safe choice and it makes no difference if Snape was correct, mistaken, or outright lying about a leak to LV), or 2. trust one of his friends for which there'd been at least some indication that one might be giving info to LV. While James' feelings about that decision could have been affected by his thoughts about Snape, the actual decision was no different regardless of Snape's trustworthiness -- a certainty with DD, versus some degree of uncertainty with a friend. --wynnleaf
Actually, I don't think it was so clearcut as choice 1 good, choice 2 bad. As for DD automatically being the right choice, he was their Order leader but we have no evidence that the Potters were particularly close to him, or could even get access to him as their secret keeper if necessary. Dumbledore might be trustworthy, but he's a busy guy, he's at the forefront of the battle against Voldemort, and he also likes to play things close to his chest-- i.e., he might not think that what the Potters want is necessarily whats best for the Potters, and would control the situation but not necessarily give the Potters an explanation for his actions. I can really see why the Potters wouldn't want him for a secret keeper, regardless of how trustworthy he was. Under those dire circumstances, I'd want to keep some control over my own fate. There is a tendency for us to view Dumbledore, I think, as the Perfect Solution To All Problems, but maybe some of the characters have a slightly different viewpoint.
As for choice 2, trust a friend, we do have good evidence that it was Lupin they suspected, and acted on that suspicion by cutting him out of the loop, and switching secret keepers to Pettigrew without telling him. They were tragically mistaken, yes, but there is good evidence right there that they took the information seriously, and acted on it.
Because Snape was already so convinced that James often acted out of arrogance, he saw this decision as rooted in arrogance also. But Snape doesn't seem to ever see the Marauders actions in the light of foolishness or thoughtlessness, but exclusively from arrogance or other more negative characteristics.
That much I do agree on, as well as your interpretation of how Snape uses the word "arrogance".
journeymom - Jul 14, 2006 9:26 am (#2749 of 2969)
As far as Dumbledore is concerned, we've seen how he didn't share information with Harry and what a disaster that caused. It could be that he made suggestions to the Potters but didn't share why he thought so.
"I mean, he would know that Dumbledore was (a) trustworthy and (b) unlikely to be captured by Voldemort and made to reveal the secret. Dumbledore was obviously the best choice. I wonder what Lily thought about it? " -Ann
Yes, I wonder about Lily, too. I don't think she has to be a doormat in this scenario. It's possible that she simply disagreed with James about who the SK should be, but he proceeded without her. That would certainly be very arrogant of him.
haymoni - Jul 14, 2006 10:04 am (#2750 of 2969)
Lily may have been fine with Sirius being the Secret Keeper. She may have been standing right there when Sirius made his suggestion to change to Peter. It does sound like a reasonable plan - why would Voldy choose Peter over Sirius?
They couldn't have known that Peter was going to "rat" them out, although I still think I would wonder about anyone whose animagus turned out to be a rat!
I would have preferred Dumbledore over Sirius, but that's just me.
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Soul Search - Jul 14, 2006 10:52 am (#2751 of 2969)
I think one idea was that Voldemort would assume the Potters would choose Sirius for a secret keeper and would, therefore, hunt him down. It was also assumed that no one would even think they would choose Pettigrew, him being a coward, and all. Sirius would then, himself, go into hiding. And Sirius was seriously endangering himself; he was making a supreme sacrifice for his friends. Even if Voldemort found him, he wouldn't be able to reveal the secret. And, Sirius was keeping track of Pettigrew, just in case.
It sounds like a clever plan to me. Taking the "secret keeper" idea even one step further.
Only flaw, of course, that Pettigrew turned out to be the traitor.
I don't even fault them for not suspecting that. It wasn't James assuming Pettigrew's loyalty, but knowing Pettigrew and assuming the coward could never become a death eater, a dangerous affiliation.
haymoni - Jul 14, 2006 11:40 am (#2752 of 2969)
"Look, before we do this Fidelius thing - everyone roll up your sleeves!"
How hard is that???
Mattew Bates - Jul 14, 2006 12:38 pm (#2753 of 2969)
I was under the impression that the existence of the Dark Mark on the forearm only became common knowledge to the Order after Voldy's first fall, Haymoni.
While I agree that James and Lily's decision to use Pettigrew as SK was foolish, hindsight is 20/20, and we still don't have the full story around the switch. I believe we will find out about extenuating circumstances that make their decision seem more plausible.
wynnleaf - Jul 14, 2006 2:46 pm (#2754 of 2969)
I don't quite understand the comments about whether or not James should wonder about LV "choosing" one of his friends or getting to one of his friends. That would be, of course, a concern when they chose a secret keeper -- worrying that the person chosen would run an extra risk of LV trying to capture them, maybe trying to forcibly get the info out of them. But that wasn't really the reason DD offered to be secret keeper. The problem was that DD had word that someone close to the Potters was already giving LV info about them. So the question James should have been considering was not only whether or not particular friends would be suspected of being the secret keeper, but also that one of his friends might already be betraying him -- even if inadvertently (I don't know if what DD suspected was an intentional traitor, or just a leak). In choosing a Peter to be secret keeper (and by the way, this seems to be something decided between Sirius and James - Lily isn't mentioned by Sirius as being involved in that plan), James was not only picking someone he and Sirius thought was least likely to be suspected, he was also making the assumption that Peter couldn't possibly be the leak. It's a bit amazing to me that James had so much faith in Peter -- faith enough to risk his family's lives on -- when it doesn't really appear that Peter was as close to James as Sirius, or even Lupin.
Oh, well, we've mostly gotten off the primary connection with Snape. Personally, I just can't get past the fact that James risked his family's lives on Peter Pettigrew's integrity, in spite of warnings of a leak, when he clearly had better choices. Maybe I'm too much of a "better safe than sorry," kind of person, or maybe I just can't see trusting any of my family's lives to anyone other than the most trustworthy possible (especially if I knew their lives were in danger), but I can't justify James' decision to choose the weakest of his friends when he had the most trustworthy and powerful wizard offering his help.
Magic Words - Jul 14, 2006 3:19 pm (#2755 of 2969)
Whoever brought up the possibility that the Potters were not close to Dumbledore has a good point. James could have seen how hard Dumbledore was working and decided there was no need to burden him with something the Marauders could just as easily take care of by themselves.
Saracene - Jul 14, 2006 7:09 pm (#2756 of 2969)
Wow, so many posts to catch up with...
- On fanfiction: while I enjoy reading light-hearted, humorous takes and parodies, as a rule I'm not too keen on the more straightforward, "serious" fanfiction - even if it's well-written. For some bizarre reason I can't really explain, it just makes me feel very uncomfortable to read the stories where other people take well-established characters and write about them outside of canon.
- On Snape and Dumbledore's relationship: while I do think that there's some sort of bond there I doubt it's as personal or close as father/son or mentor/student. Just because Snape didn't have a good father figure it doesn't necessarily mean IMO that he actually wants one or that he looks for one in other people like Dumbledore. But if what Dumbledore told Harry about Snape's remorse was true, then obviously Dumbledore got to see the side of Snape most people wouldn't imagine existing and Snape himself would rarely reveal to anyone and that, in a way, creates a sort of a bond. Whether Snape himself feels actual affection towards Dumbledore is hard to say since even if he did, he's IMO simply not the sort of person to express it, especially in front of other people.
- On the secret keeper business: I don't think it's 100% clear from the PoA text that Dumbledore actually told James or anyone else about his suspicions at the time. And it's also not clear whether Dumbledore had "a word" or any sort of solid information about the traitor or whether all he had were his own suspicions.
In any case, I agree that turning down Dumbledore's offer to be a Secret Keeper in favour of Sirius or Pettigrew was just plain daft. Interesting question on what part Lily had to play in all of this; logically you'd think that she would but on the other hand Minerva doesn't mention Lily once when she's talking about Dumbledore's offer. It's, "James insisted on Black" and "James told Dumbledore that Black would rather die", etc. So it does look like James' decision, to me.
Solitaire - Jul 14, 2006 8:54 pm (#2757 of 2969)
Edited Jul 14, 2006 9:56 pm
the actual decision was no different regardless of Snape's trustworthiness -- a certainty with DD, versus some degree of uncertainty with a friend
To James, Sirius was trustworthy--so much so that he was named Harry's godfather. I am putting myself in James's place, so the following is only speculative ...
If Dumbledore had come to me with information that my best friend in the whole world was passing information on me to the enemy, I think I would probably assume that some "interested" third party was trying to set a trap for me using someone else I trusted. At the very least, I would assume that someone was using Dumbledore to drive a wedge between my best friend and me.
The thing is, James was being no more stubborn about Sirius than Dumbledore continues to be about Snape. And James had a lot more history with Sirius catching his back than Dumbledore had with Snape at that time.
Dumbledore could not name the traitor, apparently. Since he did not tell James who gave the information, it probably seemed nothing but heresay, as far as James was concerned. If he had told James that Snape had accused one of his friends, it is understandable that James would not have believed Snape. If he didn't believe Snape, he wouldn't feel a need for changing from Sirius.
Once the Potters had decided to make a change, I will admit it is odd that he chose Peter instead of Dumbledore. I would be interested to find out more about how he decided on Peter. I think there may be more to that choice than Sirius explained that night in the Shack. JM2K ... I probably won't be pursuing this issue, because it is clear we will never agree ... but that's okay, too.
Solitaire
Ann - Jul 15, 2006 6:09 am (#2758 of 2969)
Edited Jul 15, 2006 7:10 am
Dumbledore knew that one of James Potter's friends was passing information to Voldemort. I think James and Sirius took this quite seriously--Sirius, in the Shrieking Shack, seemed quite clear about how long this had been going on--at least a year before the fall of Voldemort.
But I think Sirius wanted to be Secret Keeper. Lily obviously trusted him, too--if he was Harry's godfather, as Solitaire points out, James trusted him, and Lily must have trusted him, as well. My point is that it would have been hard for James to say to Sirius, 'look, I trust you and Peter' (though apparently not Remus, from what Sirius says in the Shrieking Shack) 'but, just to be on the safe side, I'm going to let Dumbldore be my Secret Keeper.' That's where I see the cowardice/arrogance in his decision--he doesn't want to play it safe, if it means questioning the loyalty of his friends. He is either afraid of what they will think of him if he does, or too arrogant to imagine that they would ever desert him.
All four Marauders obviously knew that one of them was a traitor. Sirius thought it was Remus and Remus thought it was Sirius. That may have been an added incentive for James to go with Peter. I would bet (theory here) that Peter was a Muggle-born, and hence no one thought Voldemort would put up with him. (JKR said once, at Edinburgh Book Fair, I think, that Snape's being a Death Eater ruled out his being a Muggle-born, since Voldemort didn't accept Muggle-borns as Death Eaters except under very special circumstances. Like they had information about 'the one who has the power to vanquish the Dark Lord,' for instance?)
That might also explain why Snape assumed that it was Sirius as well. I don't think Dumbledore would have told James that the information came from Snape (though I think it most likely did--he's clearly the main, if not the only, spy); he would know that such a source would lead James to discount it, of course, but it would also be stupid to tell ANYONE who the spy was. (And if he had told James, James would have told Sirius and Peter, and he obviously didn't.)
Vulture - Jul 15, 2006 11:43 am (#2759 of 2969)
Edited Jul 15, 2006 12:59 pm
All four Marauders obviously knew that one of them was a traitor. Sirius thought it was Remus and Remus thought it was Sirius (Ann [/b]- Jul 15, 2006 7:09 am (#2758))
Not at the time, they didn't. Remus, like everyone else, accepted the story about Sirius killing Pettigrew after the event, but I can't think of anything indicating what he was thinking before the Potters were killed. Sirius suspected him at the time (due to the werewolf thing ?) but not necessarily vice versa.
I have a question. How did Snape know about the battle that Draco and Harry were having in the bathroom. Does the Unbreakable have a warning that the one under protection is in danager. This just didn't set right with me. Why was it Snape that came in? Another Question, why was Snape misleading Bella at Spinners End about Harry's abilities, he states that Harry is average. We know, and so does Snape all the things Harry has done (The Patronus?, the Dementors, rescuing Sirius, etc) He wanted Bella to think less of Harry and Dumbledore (Todd Watts Jul 12, 2006 12:05 pm (#2723))
Well, I assumed that Snape was just generally following Draco around the place _ at the end, Draco says that Snape has been constantly pestering him about his plan. If Snape is on the good side, Dumbledore's orders (as stated on the Tower) are to keep an eye on Draco. If Snape is evil, it is probable that he has noticed Harry following Draco and keeps an eye on both to ensure Draco's plan goes OK.
At Spinner's End, it again depends which side Snape is on. If he's on the good side, he is trying to make Bellatrix underestimate Dumbledore and Harry, as other posts have suggested. If he's on the evil side _ well, as early as Book 3, we've seen Snape play down an enemy's abilities when he talks to Harry about James: whatever we may think of Snape or James, we all know that James was regarded as very good both academically and at Quidditch, but Snape cannot stand to acknowledge this.
Whichever side Snape is on, there is another issue, raised by Hermione in Book 1 when she says that there are things beyond books and cleverness and that Harry is a "great wizard" because of those things. Of course, she says this at a moment of great emotion for them both, as we all understand, but her words have a more long-term significance: I suspect that she recognises and values things which Snape cannot.
Snape, in "Spinner's End", attributes Harry's successes against the Dark Side to "luck, and more talented friends" _ I would assume that by the latter he means Hermione, though he wouldn't say so to Bellatrix. Snape probably recognises why people (like Lupin in Book 3) would call Hermione the cleverest witch of her year. But _ quite apart from his enmity with Harry _ he does not understand or value love a great deal: he instead places excessive emphasis on logic and subtlety. Even if he is on the good side, it's not surprising that this would lead him to regard Harry as "mediocre".
If it (his Dark Mark) was not known, Snape's revealing it, only moments before he returns to Voldemort's fold and spying for the order, may have been a much more significant and brave act than most of us have seen it as. (I still view this one of the most important reasons to believe that Snape Is Good.) (Ann Jul 12, 2006 4:34 pm (#2727))
I believe it was known to Dumbledore _ in the Book 4 Pensieve scene, Dumbledore's memory has Snape saying "It's coming back ... Karkaroff's, too".
Anyway, the trouble is that the essence of good spying is that all evidence which the side you're spying on can find, will point to your loyalty to that side. Snape illustrates this to Bellatrix by saying "I returned on Dumbledore's orders" (to her momentary shock).
Snape reveals the Dark Mark to Fudge after Dumbledore has finished speaking _ yes, it may be a loyal gesture of support, but if he's evil, it may be that he sees that there's no danger of Fudge believing Dumbledore, and simply intervenes to cement Dumbledore's trust in him.
And since we've never heard about another spy for Dumbledore in Voldemort's camp ... (Ann Jul 13, 2006 5:32 am (#2731))
Are you sure ? I thought I read about Dumbledore's "spies" _ plural _ somewhere. Maybe I'm dreaming.
I find it very interesting that DD offered to be the secret keeper, but James refused that offer, instead ending up with Peter Pettigrew, even though he knew that DD feared someone close to the Potters was passing info to LV. We don't know if James knew that DD's fears stemmed in part from a spy's information, but I can understand Snape's feeling that it was arrogance on James' part to choose one of the Marauders as a secret keeper even in the face of warnings. I expect that if McGonagall knew DD had offered to be secret keeper, Snape probably knew as well. I expect in Snape's view, James decision to disregard warnings about a weak link among his friends and to decline the offer of the most powerful trustworthy wizard to be secret keeper -- even at the risk of the lives of himself and his family -- are evidence of his great arrogance. And of course, those decisions lead to his own and Lily's deaths. (wynnleaf Jul 13, 2006 6:23 am (#2733))
(I assume that this is mainly based on Book 3 ?) My impression is that James refused the offer originally when it was a matter of choosing between Dumbledore and Sirius _ if Dumbledore communicated his misgivings to James, it's likely that James would indignantly affirm his trust in Sirius, his best friend. (He may even have felt that Sirius was being suspected by others due to his Slytherin family origins, and have felt defensive of him.) Sirius tells us that he persuaded James to change to Pettigrew at the last minute. This is a typically impetuous moment from Sirius _ and of course, one which he feels guilty for, for the rest of his life. In Book 5, Harry gets the impression that Sirius was the one person (when they're fifteen) who could change James's mind. Anyway, by the time James made his final choice, the option of Dumbledore was unlikely to be there, as they were rushing into hiding. Another thing to bear in mind is that we only know about Dumbledore's misgivings from McGonagall, so we don't know exactly what the discussions with James consisted of. To me, the key point is that James was correct about Sirius's loyalty _ and fatally, that led him to trust Sirius's judgement.
I largely agree with you about Snape's view of James's choice of Secret-Keeper. The only thing I'm not clear on is how much Snape knew at the time, and how much he learned afterwards. His words to Harry in Book 3, about James dying without admitting he might be mistaken in Sirius, make clear that (by Book 3) he is quite sure (like others) that Sirius was the Secret-Keeper. Where Snape does wrong is in trying to hang on to this view, for the sake of a grudge, when logic is threatening it.
Vulture - Jul 15, 2006 11:51 am (#2760 of 2969)
Edited Jul 15, 2006 1:11 pm
I found a site that many of you may find helpful to bookmark. I won't leave the actual link, because it may link on to some objectionable things -- I just don't know. But if you Google, in quotations marks, "Professor Severus Snape's Quotes" you will get two links to a site that has ALL of the quotes from the texts of Books 1-4 that relate to Snape. I think under Google you'll get links to one or two of the pages, and the rest of links are at the bottom of the pages at the site. Look around and you'll see what I mean. There's a separate page for each of the 1st four books, with all of the text relating to Snape.
I found it very interesting to read through it. It's especially interesting to read it with a conscious effort to weed out the Harry point-of-view bias. When you do that, there are actually only a few places where Snape goes beyond the line of what a typical very strict teacher might say or do. And you can really see the degree of bias toward the students point of view. For instance, the students were "forced" to learn about antidotes. Neville getting detention of disembowling toads for melting down his cauldron was presented as though that was akin to torture. A potions essay assignment on poisons is described as nasty. The list can go on and on.
Also, if you look objectively and from the point of view of a strict teacher, most of the punishments (note, I said "most"), are not out of line, but All of the punishments as well as other actions by Snape are presented from the point of view of students who consider them unfair. (wynnleaf Jul 13, 2006 9:47 am (#2735))
No, I'm sorry, but (surprise, surprise !!) I don't agree. In Book 1, Snape tells the whole class to look at "the perfect way Malfoy had stewed his horned slugs". Nothing wrong in praise for a good student, but in a later book, when he sets a very difficult potion, Hermione (naturally !!) does it perfectly. Yet Snape, after carefully examining it, says absolutely nothing _ because Hermione is Muggle-born and not a Slytherin.
We have two explicit incidents of students being late for a Snape class _ Harry and Malfoy. In Harry's case, Snape immediately takes points; in Malfoy's, he simply says "Settle down, settle down" to the class in general.
In Harry's very first class with Snape, Snape rounds on Harry for not telling Neville how to do his potion. This is not only unfair _ it's blatantly ludicrous, as Harry's attention had been on his own cauldron ... well, I don't need to explain _ this one is obvious, isn't it ? Besides, when Hermione does try to help others with their work, Snape doesn't like that either.
I haven't even bothered with all the various ways Snape fulfils Ron's Book 1 statement that "they say he always favours them (Slytherins)", but one will suffice. In Book 4, Harry and Malfoy duel but injure others by mistake _ Goyle and Hermione. Snape arrives and immediately sends the Slytherin to hospital. Yet, though Hermione's two front teeth are growing down to the floor, Snape not only does nothing but says "I see no difference" _ deliberately humiliating her about a part of her appearance about which she has always felt self-conscious. We know that this is a common Slytherin taunt at Hermione because Malfoy has done an impression of leaping up and down with his hand up for questions _ and buck teeth.
Snape is not a strict-but-fair teacher _ he is a cruel and petty one. McGonagall is a strict teacher _ almost to the extent of being tougher on her own House than any other. The difference is quite clear. I suggest that, in any question about Snape's class behaviour, we simply stop to imagine how McGonagall would have handled the same incident. That should make things clear.
Snape bears all the signs of someone who has known so little love that by now it's almost unbearable when it is offered. (Harry sees signs of this problem in Snape's memories in Book 5.) We know of precisely two characters who show liking for Snape _ Dumbledore and (until Book 6) Draco Malfoy. This explains much of his behaviour and demeanour, even when he tries to do good (like refereeing to protect Harry in Book 1).
Snape is a fascinating character, and if he's on the good side, he is doing one of the hardest and most moving things any human can do _ trying to be a good person while saddled with appalling personality problems: like a conscientious driver in a wreck of a car. But he is not a good teacher _ not even a strict teacher. We are shown two different models of successful teaching: McGonagall and Lupin. Snape approximates to neither.
By the way, I looked up "Professor Severus Snape's Quotes", thanks. The sites are very interesting, but didn't affect my view of Snape.
Choices - Jul 15, 2006 12:22 pm (#2761 of 2969)
I know Snape appears to favor Draco, but I often wonder if this is not in conjunction with his spy job - he tries to impress Lucius and stay close to him by favoring his son - that way he is in with Lucius and can gain insider information from him.
Saracene - Jul 15, 2006 8:15 pm (#2762 of 2969)
Vulture, I agree with you 100%. Except that I probably wouldn't necessarily attribute Snape's attitude to Hermione to her muggle-born origin. But no, I don't see Snape as strict-but-fair teacher at all either.
Mrs Brisbee - Jul 16, 2006 3:10 am (#2763 of 2969)
Vulture, I agree with you too!
wynnleaf - Jul 16, 2006 6:35 am (#2764 of 2969)
Edited Jul 16, 2006 7:44 am
I agree that Snape is not a fair teacher, but that was not the point of my post. What I was trying to point out was that over and over, regardless of what Snape does, even on the many occasions when his actions or punishments are not unfair, the narration is written as though they are unfair, or the students comment on it as though it's unfair. I believe that it's written that way because JKR wants us to only see Snape's actions through the pov of "everything he does is mean or unfair," and she also wants the students to only be viewing Snape that way.
Here's some examples:
In SS/PS Harry has Quidditch Through the Ages outside. Snape stops him and asks what he's got, and takes the book saying that books aren't allowed outside of the school. Harry assumes, "he just made that rule up."
Draco verbally provokes Ron. Ron physically dives at him just as Snape comes into view. Hagrid tells Snape Ron was provoked. Snape says that regardless, fighting is prohibited and takes 5 points from Ron.
As they make a Forgetfulness potion, Snape is described as making them all nervous by breathing down their necks. Many teachers walk around classrooms while students work, but in Snape's case, it's presented as a negative.
And of course, everything Snape was doing in that book was described from the view of being extraordinarily suspicious. When Harry's wandering the halls or the restricted section at night, avoiding Snape is written as though Harry's avoiding someone evil who might stop him from his noble purpose. Obviously the readers are supposed to be suspicious of Snape, just like Harry is, and the way actions are described contribute to that.
In COS:
During entire incident where Snape catches Harry and Ron sneaking into Hogwarts after flying there in the car, Snape is described as though everything he said was unfair, but actually what Snape said was correct and fair. Even DD said that if Harry and Ron did anything like that again they'd be expelled.
In the scene where the trio steal ingredients from Snape's storeroom, the whole thing is presented as though it were some covert operation in enemy territory. You find yourself sort of cheering HRH on. Snape is pretty sure Harry was up to something and at the end of that scene we read, "Snape can't prove it was you," said Ron reassuringly to Harry. "What can he do?" "Knowing Snape, something foul," said Harry as the potion frothed and bubbled. It's presented as though HRH activities are good and justified and if Snape learns what Harry did and does anything to Harry because of it, it's "foul."
In POA, there's a class where Draco's arm had been injured (it wasn't a fake injury, even if he made it last a lot longer than necessary). Ron was told to cut up Draco's ingredients for him, so he cut them up very poorly. Snape made him exchange his own well-cut ingredients with the poorly cut ones he did for Draco. Ron acts like this was unfair and it wasn't. In the same class, Snape tells Hermione not to help Neville with his potion. She does anyway and later Snape takes 5 points because she helped Neville. Ron exclaims that Snape took 5 points because the potion was right. Of course, he didn't. He took 5 points because Hermione had done exactly what he told her not to do. As regards feeding the potion to Trevor, that was certainly a threat Snape had made to Neville, which was wrong and certainly helped terrify Neville. We don't know whether Snape would really have done anything that would actually hurt the toad (Snape hasn't actually shown any tendencies like that). You can't help but wonder why Neville carries his pet to class anyway -- no one else appears to. But still, I agree that Snape shouldn't have threatened to dose the toad -- especially to Neville, who would believe he'd really do it.
In POA, when Snape teaches the DADA class about werewolves, he asks questions of the class and Hermione is the only one to put up her hand and he doesn't call on her. She answers out of turn. Unlike in the film, Ron says out loud, "You asked us a question and she knows the answer! Why ask if you don't want to be told?" Ron gets detention. While readers can easily see that Ron was being disrespectful in tone, the general sentiment seems right to us. It's easy to remember Harry, in his first class of potions, when Snape has asked him questions he doesn't know, suggesting to Snape that he ask Hermione the questions since she seems to know the answers. It's a typical notion of many students that teachers ask the class questions in order to find out the answers -- which is simply not true. Teachers ask classes questions to find out what they know, not to find out the answers. While students who know most all the answers often want, and should get, the opportunity to answer a certain number of questions, it usually doesn't do anyone in the class much good for the teacher to call on the extremely knowledgeable student to answer questions. The teacher knows the answer and knows that the very knowledgeable student knows, too. The other students aren't going to learn better from hearing the top student spout off the answer -- often the rest of the students just tune out when a dialogue starts between the teacher and the class top student. But in the case of Snape's classes, we're given the perspective of the students, who act as though Snape's not calling on Hermione is unfair, or that a student telling or suggesting to Snape to call on Hermione is somehow a reasonable thing to tell him.
As is typical, Snape's confrontations with Harry at night in the halls, or regarding being in Hogsmeade, are presented as Harry talking to an enemy who has to be thwarted, rather than a confrontation with a teacher who is legitimately recognizing and trying to get to the bottom of Harry's breaking rules.
I'll stop here. Please, please note. I'm not trying to say Snape is this perfectly fair and just teacher. What I'm trying to point out is that the students and narration presents everything Snape does as though it's all unfair or mean, or as though it's all an action of an "enemy" of Harry's. The reader is trained to see everything Snape does from the "this is the enemy of Harry, and everything he does has bad motives" perspective. But if you look at it all objectively, it doesn't necessarily come across that way. Some does. Yes, Snape dislikes Harry and yes, he's biased toward Slytherin, and yes, he say's mean things to some of the students. But that doesn't actually mean that everything that we see him do is as mean or unfair as it's presented.
I'm reminded of the expression, a "snow job," except instead of positive it's a negative slant. In other words, an effort is made to convince the reader of Snape's complete nastiness, by not allowing any incident with Snape to go by without putting it in a bad light.
Catherine - Jul 16, 2006 7:07 am (#2765 of 2969)
The reader is trained to see everything Snape does from the "this is the enemy of Harry, and everything he does has bad motives" perspective. But if you look at it all objectively, it doesn't necessarily come across that way. Some does. Yes, Snape dislikes Harry and yes, he's biased toward Slytherin, and yes, he say's mean things to some of the students. But that doesn't actually mean that everything that we see him do is as mean or unfair as it's presented. --Wynnleaf
During entire incident where Snape catches Harry and Ron sneaking into Hogwarts after flying there in the car, Snape is described as though everything he said was unfair, but actually what Snape said was correct and fair. Even DD said that if Harry and Ron did anything like that again they'd be expelled.--Wynnleaf
I think the issue for me, as a reader in that scene, is not whether the boys committed a wrongful act. It could appear to the reader that Snape is very eager for the boys to be expelled. That doesn't seem "correct and fair" to me, never mind that I find it unprofessional.
In POA, there's a class where Draco's arm had been injured (it wasn't a fake injury, even if he made it last a lot longer than necessary). --Wynnleaf
Snape could have asked a Slytherin to help Draco. He could have asked anyone else in the class, BUT he purposely choose the two students that would provide Draco with enjoyment. Never mind the fact that I think Draco's arm had been mended quickly by Madame Pomfrey and that he was shamming there (this shamming helped Draco to get Hagrid into trouble and appeared to get him special treatment). I think Snape is far too smart to be manipulated by Draco, so I question Snape's motives here.
n POA, when Snape teaches the DADA class about werewolves, he asks questions of the class and Hermione is the only one to put up her hand and he doesn't call on her. She answers out of turn. --Wynnleaf
Snape was being unprofessional regarding Professor Lupin. Snape was disrespectful toward Professor Lupin's handling of the DADA class. He also insulted the class for not having covered material at the end of the textbook. Respect is a two-way street.
Snape's actions are questionable without resorting to "the reader is trained to see Snape as an enemy."
Soul Search - Jul 16, 2006 7:11 am (#2766 of 2969)
wynnleaf, well thought out and presented. Clearly, JKR is presenting Snape in the worst light possible.
Might add, that even when Snape does do something good for Harry, it is largely dismissed. For example, in SS we learn from Quirrel/Voldemort that Snape was trying to counter the broom hex, rather than creating the hex, but it is quickly dismissed (although Hermione mentions it later.) Both the source of the information and the information itself demean the act, rather than place it in a proper perspective.
My read is all this demeaning Snape is so we will be surprised when Snape saves Harry in Book Seven.
Solitaire - Jul 16, 2006 8:25 am (#2767 of 2969)
Edited Jul 16, 2006 9:27 am
Snape is always careful to adhere to the letter of the rules, but he ignores the spirit of the rules. I have no quarrel with him taking 5 points from Ron for fighting. Where he crossed the line into unfairness was not taking the same 5 from Malfoy. But he did that because he could do it. It's this type of behavior that makes me dislike him.
I believe Snape takes every possible opportunity to punish Harry for scores he couldn't even with James--either because he couldn't get away with it at school or because James died too soon to allow him the opportunity to get even man-to-man. Either way, Snape makes Harry miserable because he can. Snape abuses his power.
I agree, too, that Snape is unprofessional in how he handles the business about Remus. That is another payback from his youth. He does it because he can. Snape's behavior to the Gryffindor kids just underlines how truly petty and emotionally immature he is. It's sad ... Snape seems to have everything it takes to be a truly gifted Wizard like Dumbledore ... everything except humanity and a heart. Even if he does turn out to be on the side of good, his manner of dealing with people has cost him so many opportunities to influence a lot of kids in a positive way. How sad for a teacher ...
Solitaire
wynnleaf - Jul 16, 2006 11:40 am (#2768 of 2969)
It's interesting that JKR has done such an excellent job at convincing the readers of Snape's complete nastiness. I'm always amazed at how often you see the notion that Snape is constantly trying to get Harry expelled, or would like to see him expelled. In fact, Snape mentions it once in Book 1, when he knows that it was Harry out in the night in the restricted section of the Library, and is warning him about doing that again; and again at the first of COS when Snape is taking Harry and Ron to task over the flying car -- an incident that apparently even DD thought an offence that could (if repeated) warrent expulsion.
Snape says to his potions class at large, during a COS scene, that if he finds out who intentionally threw wrong ingredients into the cauldrons, intentionally causing an explosion and injuries, that he'd seek their expulsion. Of course, he thinks Harry is responsible, but it was something Harry did intentionally, was quite wrong and irresponsibly endangering other students, and didn't even have a very good purpose behind it.
In POA Snape suggests that another student would be suspended for leading his friends into danger as Harry did at the Shrieking Shack. But suspension is not expulsion.
In GOF, Harry thinks about Snape having saved his life before, but also giving him punishments and suggesting that he be suspended. Notice, Harry recalls Snape suggesting he be suspended, but doesn't think about Snape as trying to get him expelled.
In any case, after POA, Snape has not since tried to get Harry either expelled, or even suspended -- even after the Sectumsempra event.
Yet this idea persists among readers that Snape is always looking for any opportunity to try to get Harry expelled. JKR has done an excellent job in getting readers to think the worst of Snape.
Where he crossed the line into unfairness was not taking the same 5 from Malfoy. But he did that because he could do it.
Snape wasn't there when Draco made his comment; he only saw Ron's attack. In any case, verbal insults aren't generally considered in the same category of offense as physical attacks. Snape's response makes sense. And he didn't even give Ron detention. As to "he did that because he could..." we aren't told why he did it.
Snape's unprofessionalism with Remus really has little or nothing to do with Hermione's speaking out of turn in class and doesn't say anything about whether or not his reaction to her speaking out of turn was fair or not. I certainly have not tried to say Snape is fair in everything, or never unprofessional. There are obviously other examples of that, besides his retaliatory action to Remus' instructing Neville to turn his boggart of Snape into a figure of fun in the middle of the full DADA class (not exactly the most professional action, either).
Snape could have asked a Slytherin to help Draco. He could have asked anyone else in the class, BUT he purposely choose the two students that would provide Draco with enjoyment.
In that case, Draco, Harry and Ron were the only ones at the table. Regardless of whatever Draco's motivations may have been for sitting there, it was natural that the teacher would ask someone to help from the same table. It's only the way it's written that encourages us to believe that somehow Snape picked Ron and Harry out specially so that they'd have to help Draco and be angered. I've seen many times where one of my kids gets partnered with someone they dislike. Occasionally, they are angry that the teacher did the pairing -- why not someone they got along with? But rarely do they think the teacher did it just to make them upset.
Soul Search,
I agree. It's interesting how neither Harry, nor the readers, are ever put into a position to reflect on anything positive that Snape has done. It's like, once Snape does something positive it's never mentioned again, either in the narration or through dialog.
Catherine - Jul 16, 2006 12:07 pm (#2769 of 2969)
Snape's unprofessionalism with Remus really has little or nothing to do with Hermione's speaking out of turn in class and doesn't say anything about whether or not his reaction to her speaking out of turn was fair or not.--Wynnleaf
Well, I disagree. I think one could argue that Hermione does not want Snape to think that Lupin hasn't done a good job, or that the class is deficient.
It is also not Lupin's fault that Neville's boggart is Snape. It is also not Lupin's fault that Snape insulted Neville in front of Lupin and the DADA classmates. Snape was going to have to be laughable if Neville was to defeat the boggart. Again, in this instance, Snape instigated the events by drawing Lupin's attention to Neville.
wynnleaf - Jul 16, 2006 2:38 pm (#2770 of 2969)
Edited Jul 16, 2006 3:41 pm
On the topic of Snape taking Remus' DADA class, Hermione first interrupted to tell Snape that they weren't supposed to be on werewolves yet. The second time was to answer the question of distinctions of werewolves. Sure, she's doing it in part to offer info on where the class is in the book, and secondly to answer the question about werewolves. But surely even Hermione knows that her own knowledge about a topic is in no way indicative of what the class knows on the subject. It would be hard to believe that Hermione was insistent on answering that question so that Snape would think that Lupin was teaching them well. She, the rest of the class, and certainly any teacher including Snape is well aware that Hermione reads ahead and knows what's in the book. But the point isn't Hermione's motives for answering the question when she'd been directly told not to. Snape had already told her not to answer out-of-turn and she did it anyway. She wasn't proving anything about Lupin's teaching ability, since everyone in the room was well aware that Hermione must have learned it on her own. So Snape took 5 points, because she directly disobeyed him. Not unfair.
As to why I made an aside about Remus' professionalism with the boggart class.... Boggarts, as we learn in the books, and from JKR's comments, can be very personally revealing. Neville could just as easily have had a Death Eater boggart as Harry could have had a Voldemort boggart. Further, any student could have a boggart that involved other real people at varying levels of guilt or innocence for being that person's boggart -- opening up those people who are the subjects of the boggart to the need for ridicule (necessary, of course, to defeat the boggart). In my opinion, the confrontations with the boggart should not have been done openly before the whole class. I believe it was the OWL tests (or was it end-of-year exams 3rd year?) where the boggart test was done only before teachers? Anyway, I think working with the boggart in front of all the other kids was not a wise idea. Lupin should have seen that as soon as Neville told him what his greatest fear was. But Lupin didn't think of it until Harry came forward and Lupin realized that his boggart might be just too much for the class. I think that as soon as Lupin realized that another teacher would have be to held up for ridicule, and he as a teacher would have to support it, then he should have changed the plan and done it privately.
The fact that Snape had just finished publically ridiculing Neville does not make Lupin's actions justified. The old adage, "two wrongs don't make a right," seems to fit.
Catherine - Jul 16, 2006 3:46 pm (#2771 of 2969)
Edited Jul 16, 2006 4:50 pm
). In my opinion, the confrontations with the boggart should not have been done openly before the whole class. I believe it was the OWL tests (or was it end-of-year exams 3rd year?) where the boggart test was done only before teachers? --Wynnleaf
We learn in PoA, however, that it is better to deal with boggarts in company; the boggart is more easily confused. Was Lupin to privately tutor all third years on boggarts? When was this to have happened? That doesn't seem to be a good use of instructional time.
The students battled with a boggart in the third year exams inside of a trunk. This was probably done to test the students' competence in controlling the boggart without outside interference-- a one-on-one experience. Harry watched Ron and Hermione take their DADA practical; there was nothing secret about it.
I did not suggest that "two wrongs make a right"; I was suggesting that Snape's actions opened the door to the events that followed.
Hermione's intention was not to be disobedient, disrespectful, or rebellious. She was not the only student to speak "out of turn," as Parvati and Dean did also. Merely docking the points from Gryffindor would have sufficed, but he called her "an insufferable little know-it-all" in front of the entire class and brought tears to her eyes. That goes beyond what a strict teacher would do. I still believe that Hermione was defending Lupin and her class; Snape had just made the statement about "informing Professor Dumbledore how very behind you are" (Scholastic 172) when Hermione spoke out of turn the second time.
It's been a while since I read Fantastic Beasts, but I believe that Snape was in error when he said that "That is incorrect, the kappa is more commonly found in Mongolila." (Scholastic 172) If he's going to criticize Lupin, perhaps he should get his facts straight!
Yep, Snape was in error. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
It is also quite hypocritical for Snape to come to Lupin's class, denigrate Lupin's teaching and the students, and then threaten Ron with "And if I ever hear you criticize the way I teach a class again, you will be very sorry indeed." (Scholastic 172)
Die Zimtzicke - Jul 16, 2006 5:05 pm (#2772 of 2969)
Edited Jul 16, 2006 6:07 pm
I absolutely and totally agree with wynnleaf's posts. (Why does that not surprise anyone? LOL!) I don't care if you have the nastiest teacher on earth, you have to remember that they are in charge, and you have to follow whatever rules they set up. If the kids think some of their teachers are ridiculous, wait until they get the bosses from hell that we all run into at some point in our lives.
Solitaire - Jul 16, 2006 7:11 pm (#2773 of 2969)
Snape wasn't there when Draco made his comment; he only saw Ron's attack.
It wouldn't matter if Snape were there or not. He does not bother to get the facts, as fair teachers do. He just socks it to the Gryffindor kids.
I agree, Catherine, that Hermione was defending a teacher whom she believed had been teaching the class well. Snape doesn't like Remus and took the opportunity to not only denigrate him but insult Hermione into the bargain. It must have been bad if the kids, who agreed Hermione was a know-it-all, concurred that Snape hit below the belt: It was a mark of how much the class loathed Snape that they were all glaring at him, because every one of them had called Hermione a know-it-all at least once, and Ron, who told Hermione she was a know-it-all at least twice a week ...
Once again, even if Snape does turn out to have been truly on Dumbledore's side all along, he is still a miserable human being. I think it is tragic that he has allowed his personal resentment of the Marauders to turn him into a petty tyrant with the kids. His attitude and behavior have rendered him incapable of positively influencing a group of kids who probably would have repaid his efforts with the respect he has always craved. I think that loss is a sad legacy for any teacher ... especially one as gifted as Snape.
Solitaire
Ann - Jul 17, 2006 5:01 am (#2774 of 2969)
Edited Jul 17, 2006 6:07 am
I agree with everyone who says that Snape should probably not be teaching. Trelawney probably shouldn't be, either, for very different reasons. Both of them are there because of the war. Snape is obviously not incompetent (his students do very well on O.W.L.s and even Umbridge admits that they're well ahead of what they should be doing), but he is impatient and easy to anger. He'd do better in an elective class, where the students wanted to be there, and with older students who can deal with an occasional snide remark. I should think that his N.E.W.Ts classes are extremely demanding and stimulating for those students who choose to take them.
He has also learned, as hot tempered people have to, to use words rather than violence to express his anger. (And as Ron needs to--no verbal provocation justifies physical violence, and Snape hardly needs to ‘get the facts’ of the situation if that's the only justification the Gryffindors are offering when he takes the five points. If Ron had said something cutting and Draco had let loose with his fists, no one would have any patience with Snape if he waited to ‘get the facts.’) He's very good at using words, perhaps too good. But he treats children as little adults, as many childless people who are not particularly close to children do, and he over-estimates their ability to deal with hurtful words. The one time we do see violence used with a student, the Pensieve incident, the provocation was extreme, and, it seems to me he's making a herculean effort to control it or direct it elsewhere (throwing the jar over the door, not at Harry directly). It's a failure, but we all fail sometimes. Hogwarts is not heaven, and the people there are not perfect, considerate, and controlled at every moment. What fun would that be?
All that said, I think that the points made by wynnleaf and Soul Search are very well taken. They've been arguing that JKR has used Harry's point of view to make reasonable discipline sound unreasonable, to make harshness and sarcasm sound far worse than it is, and to play down any positive moments. This is just what Harry does himself, in his head, so it's completely justified in the books. But it also has the effect of making Snape seem much worse than he is, and aiding in authorial misdirection. The very consistency with which she does this is one of the main reasons I am SURE that Snape is going to turn out to be Dumbledore's man through and through.
All great literature (as well as a lot of not so great, of course) requires that the hero/heroine change and grow. The turning point of any story is when the hero realizes he's been wrong and grows up a little. If you look at Pride and Prejudice (one of JKR's favorite books), you can see some similarities between Snape and Darcy (hence, I suspect, a lot of the fan fiction). Both are good at cutting words and inconsiderate of the feelings of others. But when Elizabeth compares Darcy with a real villain, she realizes that beneath the surface nastiness, he's a man of honor and generosity in his actions. She's acted on the assumption that he was evil, and she's wronged him. I will therefore predict that, by the end of the series, Harry will have a similar revelation about Snape, and we will get a scene something like:
[He] grew absolutely ashamed of [him]self. Of neither [Snape] nor [whoever turns out to be the traitor] could [he] think without feeling that [he] had been blind, partial, prejudiced, absurd.
"How despicably have I acted!" [he] cried; "I, who have prided myself on my discernment! I, who have valued myself on my abilities! Who have often disdained the generous candour of [Hermione], and gratified my vanity in useless or blameable distrust. How humiliating is this discovery! Yet how just a humiliation! Had I been in love, I could not have been more wretchedly blind. But vanity, not love, has been my folly. Pleaseed with the preference of [the traitor], and offended by the neglect of [Snape], on the very beginning of our acquaintance, I have courted prepossession and ignorance, and driven reason away, where either were concerned. Till this moment, I never knew myself."
Of course, I don't think Harry will use quite the same words as Elizabeth did; and there may not actually be a traitor for contrast, as there is in Book 3 where Sirius and Wormtail have their positions reversed at the climax. And I'm not at all sure that Snape will acknowledge his mistakes and make an attempt to be more considerate and less arrogant, as Darcy does. But he might.
(Sorry about the long post!)
wynnleaf - Jul 17, 2006 6:39 am (#2775 of 2969)
Edited Jul 17, 2006 7:56 am
Ann, it's interesting that you would use Austen's works in comparison. I have thought about this very thing quite a bit the last few weeks after running across JKR's comments on Austen.
"I love a good whodunnit and my passion is plot construction. Readers loved to be tricked, but not conned," Rowling says, warming to her theme. "The best twist ever in literature is in Jane Austen's Emma. To me she is the target of perfection at which we shoot in vain." This was from the Readers Digest, 2000
Now, read this interesting analysis of "Emma," focusing on just how the author manages to trick the reader. This is written by Jitender Rajpoot, at Cal State and is titled "The 'Seeming' Reality."
In Jane Austen’s Emma, we catch a glimpse of a character that seems to be attuned to her surroundings, and who is observant enough to provide us with a glimpse into the interior world of her supporting cast. This effect is attained by the writing style of the author who provides us with a seemingly omniscient narration that appears to travel within the consciousness of her characters. However, there is an undermining irony operating throughout the text which makes a more effective claim than what a superficial reading might suggest. The inability of Emma to perceive the true intentions of other characters, or as Harriet states “see into the heart” of others, actually envelops the reader as well. The narration of the novel makes us as vulnerable to take superficiality as reality as does the plot in misdirecting Emma.
Austen achieves the art of misdirecting the reader by getting him caught up in the mundane details that border precision, but in reality serve to get him enraptured in a feeling of trusting the narrator. At times we are regaled the same account of events from different perspectives, which lead us to believe the validity of the event because there is corroboration from different characters. Ironically, this is a fault that we are critiquing in Emma who takes superficial details to infer something deeper (truthful). Just as she misconstrues signs, we take the corroboration of events to lead us down a misdirected path. And this is a crucial effect of Austen’s writing style- have the reader believe all that is told to him as if the narrator has an inner view into the character’s motivation (omniscient perspective), but the deception is that in reality the narrator is limited......
Just as Emma is guilty of taking superficial details to confirm the pre-existing convictions in her mind, we are at fault to consider the narrator to be all-knowing and honest with us. Austen plays a trick on Emma by pulling the rug from underneath her feet, and we are duped analogously for confirming our convictions by taking the events of the story to be relayed in an unbiased fashion.
"Emma" -- JKR's "target of perfection" for tricking the reader. Do I think JKR is doing this with HP? Yes, indeed. Read back and replace "Emma" with "Harry" and "Austen" with "Rowling." Think back on how many times readers say that Harry has a lot of insight into characters and situations. Is this true? We're supposed to feel that it's true, but is it really? Think how wrong he was about Quirrell, the young Tom Riddle, and fake-Moody. What else might we find he's been wrong about? I'm betting it won't just be Snape.
Solitaire - Jul 17, 2006 7:15 am (#2776 of 2969)
Edited Jul 17, 2006 8:17 am
Gee, Ann, I hope I don't see Lizzy's words coming from Harry! While I will admit I can see your parallel--Snape, like Darcy, feeling it is beneath him to lay open his reasons for acting as he does--we are dealing with two different kinds of characters. I do not believe Darcy's intent was ever to hurt Elizabeth, whereas I believe Snape's intent is to inflict any kind of pain he can get away with inflicting.
Leaving that issue aside, however, the second time Darcy declares his love--back in Meryton, following the engagement of Jane and Bingley--he confesses to Elizabeth that his interference has been absurd and his behavior inappropriate. If you wish to see a confession such as Lizzy's from Harry, I long for a confession from Snape to Harry, that he has behaved abominably. Alas, I think Harry has more humility and would be able to admit he has been wrong, in the end--if he is. I do not have such hopes for Snape. If allowed to live, I think Harry will grow up emotionally. Snape never really has.
Austen achieves the art of misdirecting the reader by getting him caught up in the mundane details that border precision, but in reality serve to get him enraptured in a feeling of trusting the narrator.
Interesting, Wynnleaf ... I didn't feel misdirected at all in Emma. I remember the first time I read the novel. I had problems with Emma from the moment she interfered with Harriet's acceptance of Robert Martin's proposal. After that, I never trusted her. How interesting that I feel that way about Snape, too.
Solitaire
wynnleaf - Jul 17, 2006 7:34 am (#2777 of 2969)
Edited Jul 17, 2006 8:41 am
Hmm, oh well, JKR was obviously surprised. I'm assume, by the primary surprise plot twist, JKR meant the surprise about Frank Churchill, his true intentions and motivations. I certainly didn't guess it. But I guess Austen couldn't fool everyone.
In any case, regardless who was or wasn't fooled by Austen's plot - the point is that JKR thought it was the standard of all surprise plots, and that's the kind of thing she says she likes to write. So whether or not Austen fooled everyone isn't the point. The point is that JKR wants to trick people and is likely using the methods of Austen to do it. So the question isn't whether you were tricked by Austen, but whether you are being tricked by JKR.
After that, I never trusted her. How interesting that I feel that way about Snape, too.
The stories are not told from Snape's point of view. If JKR is using Austen's method, it would be Harry's point of view, and by extension the narrator's pov, that you shouldn't trust.
Catherine - Jul 17, 2006 8:02 am (#2778 of 2969)
There is still "omniscience" about the narration of the novels. The reader sees events unfold that Harry does not see. I'm not inclined to distrust Harry's feelings about Snape; Harry has legitimate reasons to feel hostile toward Snape.
I also think that I have pointed out that even without Harry's feelings about Snape in the way, the reader can see that Snape's actions are unacceptable. Does this mean that Snape still could be working for good in the end? Yes. But do I think that JKR means for her readers to mitigate the severity of Snape's actions? No, I absolutely do not.
As for Emma, I think that Austen did show her readers that Emma is just a little too satisfied and a little too smug. As Solitaire mentions, Austen allows her readers plenty of opportunity to see that Emma has some learning and growing to do. Similarly, JKR has allowed her readers to see the ways in which Harry has to learn and grown.
I really do not think that the comparison of Darcy and Snape fits, although I agree with Solitaire that for such a comparison to work, it would need to be a mutual exhchange.
wynnleaf - Jul 17, 2006 8:36 am (#2779 of 2969)
Edited Jul 17, 2006 9:36 am
We, the readers, don't find outselves mistaken about Frank Churchill's relationship with Jane Fairfax because we're believing Emma's interpretation of events. Note the paragraph below from "The 'Seeming' Reality."
Just as Emma is guilty of taking superficial details to confirm the pre-existing convictions in her mind, we are at fault to consider the narrator to be all-knowing and honest with us. Austen plays a trick on Emma by pulling the rug from underneath her feet, and we are duped analogously for confirming our convictions by taking the events of the story to be relayed in an unbiased fashion.
It's not that we believe Emma herself, but that we find ourselves doing the same thing Emma is doing -- looking at events as we see them (or as the narrator leads us to see them) and drawing the wrong conclusion. The problem is not that we believe Emma, but that we believe the narrator which, unrecognized to us, is following a very Emma-centric point of view.
This is what JKR is in all likelihood doing with Harry. It's not that the readers trust everything Harry thinks. It's that the reader interprets things based on a narration that is sort of "Harry-centric." We only see what Harry sees, and we fall into many of the same traps Harry does. The problem isn't solely trusting Harry, it's trusting the narrator. This is where Austen catches her readers. She convinces them to trust an untrustworthy narrator. If JKR -- who clearly admires Austen's methods -- is doing the same thing, then we can't just not trust Harry's interpretation of events, we have to be careful of the narrator, too.
That's what I've been trying to point out in the parts of the text about Snape. It's not that the narrator is directly lying to us. But the narrator pushes us to view things from a particular direction which is pretty much the same as the way Harry sees it.
Here's an example from "Emma" as described in "The 'Seeming' Reality."
For instance, the pianoforte that arrives as a gift for Jane Fairfax ends up being allotted to Mr. Knightley. The presentation of the events is why the reader is led to believe the validity of this conclusion. Firstly, we hear of Jane’s surprise upon the reception of the unexpected gift, and are quickly directed towards Col. Campbell being the culprit. However, the deductive conversation between the characters guides us to Mr. and Mrs. Dixon as being the responsible party for the pianoforte. This conclusion seems to satisfy the needs of the characters and so the subsequent sequence concerns the flirtation between Frank Churchill and Emma, but we are tempted to consider a third possibility for the gift- Mr. Knightley. The narrator is clever to encode this inference by making Mr. Knightley to be in love with Miss. Fairfax, which is a twofold validation for our conclusion that he must be the culprit. This conclusion is reinforced by the repetitive concern Mr. Knightley shows towards Miss. Fairfax...
Note. It is not Emma's belief that the reader tends toward. It is the belief toward which the narrator directs the reader -- which is incorrect and based on some false leads. This is what I think JKR is doing with Snape (and maybe with a lot more that I'm just not seeing). She uses the narration, sequences of events, etc. to build up a "case" in the reader's mind to direct them toward a false conclusion. And it is very difficult to read it from an objective view point instead of the narration, because we think that the narration is objective, when it is not.
Wow, I think I'd better take a break!!
Catherine - Jul 17, 2006 9:16 am (#2780 of 2969)
Edited Jul 17, 2006 10:16 am
We only see what Harry sees, and we fall into many of the same traps Harry does. --Wynnleaf
Actually, as I said in my previous post, we DO see things that Harry does not see.
Narrators are often "unreliable" in various ways. We may yet discover more about Harry's reliability vs. unreliability. But there is still an overriding omnisicient narrator who shows/tells us things that Harry is not privy to. I will be interested to see how that plays out in the 7th book.
I don't consider myself falling into a trap just because I think that Snape is a nasty person. He may well have been acting for the ultimate good, but that does not mean I am seeing him through a distorted lens. Harry, in fact, may be "seeing through a glass darkly" when it comes to Snape, and he will, perhaps, have an opportunity to see Snape more clearly and find some measure of forgiveness for him.
I think that I, as the reader, see Snape more clearly than Harry does. That said, I still think Snape is a nasty bit of work, and a fascinating character.
I think one idea was that Voldemort would assume the Potters would choose Sirius for a secret keeper and would, therefore, hunt him down. It was also assumed that no one would even think they would choose Pettigrew, him being a coward, and all. Sirius would then, himself, go into hiding. And Sirius was seriously endangering himself; he was making a supreme sacrifice for his friends. Even if Voldemort found him, he wouldn't be able to reveal the secret. And, Sirius was keeping track of Pettigrew, just in case.
It sounds like a clever plan to me. Taking the "secret keeper" idea even one step further.
Only flaw, of course, that Pettigrew turned out to be the traitor.
I don't even fault them for not suspecting that. It wasn't James assuming Pettigrew's loyalty, but knowing Pettigrew and assuming the coward could never become a death eater, a dangerous affiliation.
haymoni - Jul 14, 2006 11:40 am (#2752 of 2969)
"Look, before we do this Fidelius thing - everyone roll up your sleeves!"
How hard is that???
Mattew Bates - Jul 14, 2006 12:38 pm (#2753 of 2969)
I was under the impression that the existence of the Dark Mark on the forearm only became common knowledge to the Order after Voldy's first fall, Haymoni.
While I agree that James and Lily's decision to use Pettigrew as SK was foolish, hindsight is 20/20, and we still don't have the full story around the switch. I believe we will find out about extenuating circumstances that make their decision seem more plausible.
wynnleaf - Jul 14, 2006 2:46 pm (#2754 of 2969)
I don't quite understand the comments about whether or not James should wonder about LV "choosing" one of his friends or getting to one of his friends. That would be, of course, a concern when they chose a secret keeper -- worrying that the person chosen would run an extra risk of LV trying to capture them, maybe trying to forcibly get the info out of them. But that wasn't really the reason DD offered to be secret keeper. The problem was that DD had word that someone close to the Potters was already giving LV info about them. So the question James should have been considering was not only whether or not particular friends would be suspected of being the secret keeper, but also that one of his friends might already be betraying him -- even if inadvertently (I don't know if what DD suspected was an intentional traitor, or just a leak). In choosing a Peter to be secret keeper (and by the way, this seems to be something decided between Sirius and James - Lily isn't mentioned by Sirius as being involved in that plan), James was not only picking someone he and Sirius thought was least likely to be suspected, he was also making the assumption that Peter couldn't possibly be the leak. It's a bit amazing to me that James had so much faith in Peter -- faith enough to risk his family's lives on -- when it doesn't really appear that Peter was as close to James as Sirius, or even Lupin.
Oh, well, we've mostly gotten off the primary connection with Snape. Personally, I just can't get past the fact that James risked his family's lives on Peter Pettigrew's integrity, in spite of warnings of a leak, when he clearly had better choices. Maybe I'm too much of a "better safe than sorry," kind of person, or maybe I just can't see trusting any of my family's lives to anyone other than the most trustworthy possible (especially if I knew their lives were in danger), but I can't justify James' decision to choose the weakest of his friends when he had the most trustworthy and powerful wizard offering his help.
Magic Words - Jul 14, 2006 3:19 pm (#2755 of 2969)
Whoever brought up the possibility that the Potters were not close to Dumbledore has a good point. James could have seen how hard Dumbledore was working and decided there was no need to burden him with something the Marauders could just as easily take care of by themselves.
Saracene - Jul 14, 2006 7:09 pm (#2756 of 2969)
Wow, so many posts to catch up with...
- On fanfiction: while I enjoy reading light-hearted, humorous takes and parodies, as a rule I'm not too keen on the more straightforward, "serious" fanfiction - even if it's well-written. For some bizarre reason I can't really explain, it just makes me feel very uncomfortable to read the stories where other people take well-established characters and write about them outside of canon.
- On Snape and Dumbledore's relationship: while I do think that there's some sort of bond there I doubt it's as personal or close as father/son or mentor/student. Just because Snape didn't have a good father figure it doesn't necessarily mean IMO that he actually wants one or that he looks for one in other people like Dumbledore. But if what Dumbledore told Harry about Snape's remorse was true, then obviously Dumbledore got to see the side of Snape most people wouldn't imagine existing and Snape himself would rarely reveal to anyone and that, in a way, creates a sort of a bond. Whether Snape himself feels actual affection towards Dumbledore is hard to say since even if he did, he's IMO simply not the sort of person to express it, especially in front of other people.
- On the secret keeper business: I don't think it's 100% clear from the PoA text that Dumbledore actually told James or anyone else about his suspicions at the time. And it's also not clear whether Dumbledore had "a word" or any sort of solid information about the traitor or whether all he had were his own suspicions.
In any case, I agree that turning down Dumbledore's offer to be a Secret Keeper in favour of Sirius or Pettigrew was just plain daft. Interesting question on what part Lily had to play in all of this; logically you'd think that she would but on the other hand Minerva doesn't mention Lily once when she's talking about Dumbledore's offer. It's, "James insisted on Black" and "James told Dumbledore that Black would rather die", etc. So it does look like James' decision, to me.
Solitaire - Jul 14, 2006 8:54 pm (#2757 of 2969)
Edited Jul 14, 2006 9:56 pm
the actual decision was no different regardless of Snape's trustworthiness -- a certainty with DD, versus some degree of uncertainty with a friend
To James, Sirius was trustworthy--so much so that he was named Harry's godfather. I am putting myself in James's place, so the following is only speculative ...
If Dumbledore had come to me with information that my best friend in the whole world was passing information on me to the enemy, I think I would probably assume that some "interested" third party was trying to set a trap for me using someone else I trusted. At the very least, I would assume that someone was using Dumbledore to drive a wedge between my best friend and me.
The thing is, James was being no more stubborn about Sirius than Dumbledore continues to be about Snape. And James had a lot more history with Sirius catching his back than Dumbledore had with Snape at that time.
Dumbledore could not name the traitor, apparently. Since he did not tell James who gave the information, it probably seemed nothing but heresay, as far as James was concerned. If he had told James that Snape had accused one of his friends, it is understandable that James would not have believed Snape. If he didn't believe Snape, he wouldn't feel a need for changing from Sirius.
Once the Potters had decided to make a change, I will admit it is odd that he chose Peter instead of Dumbledore. I would be interested to find out more about how he decided on Peter. I think there may be more to that choice than Sirius explained that night in the Shack. JM2K ... I probably won't be pursuing this issue, because it is clear we will never agree ... but that's okay, too.
Solitaire
Ann - Jul 15, 2006 6:09 am (#2758 of 2969)
Edited Jul 15, 2006 7:10 am
Dumbledore knew that one of James Potter's friends was passing information to Voldemort. I think James and Sirius took this quite seriously--Sirius, in the Shrieking Shack, seemed quite clear about how long this had been going on--at least a year before the fall of Voldemort.
But I think Sirius wanted to be Secret Keeper. Lily obviously trusted him, too--if he was Harry's godfather, as Solitaire points out, James trusted him, and Lily must have trusted him, as well. My point is that it would have been hard for James to say to Sirius, 'look, I trust you and Peter' (though apparently not Remus, from what Sirius says in the Shrieking Shack) 'but, just to be on the safe side, I'm going to let Dumbldore be my Secret Keeper.' That's where I see the cowardice/arrogance in his decision--he doesn't want to play it safe, if it means questioning the loyalty of his friends. He is either afraid of what they will think of him if he does, or too arrogant to imagine that they would ever desert him.
All four Marauders obviously knew that one of them was a traitor. Sirius thought it was Remus and Remus thought it was Sirius. That may have been an added incentive for James to go with Peter. I would bet (theory here) that Peter was a Muggle-born, and hence no one thought Voldemort would put up with him. (JKR said once, at Edinburgh Book Fair, I think, that Snape's being a Death Eater ruled out his being a Muggle-born, since Voldemort didn't accept Muggle-borns as Death Eaters except under very special circumstances. Like they had information about 'the one who has the power to vanquish the Dark Lord,' for instance?)
That might also explain why Snape assumed that it was Sirius as well. I don't think Dumbledore would have told James that the information came from Snape (though I think it most likely did--he's clearly the main, if not the only, spy); he would know that such a source would lead James to discount it, of course, but it would also be stupid to tell ANYONE who the spy was. (And if he had told James, James would have told Sirius and Peter, and he obviously didn't.)
Vulture - Jul 15, 2006 11:43 am (#2759 of 2969)
Edited Jul 15, 2006 12:59 pm
All four Marauders obviously knew that one of them was a traitor. Sirius thought it was Remus and Remus thought it was Sirius (Ann [/b]- Jul 15, 2006 7:09 am (#2758))
Not at the time, they didn't. Remus, like everyone else, accepted the story about Sirius killing Pettigrew after the event, but I can't think of anything indicating what he was thinking before the Potters were killed. Sirius suspected him at the time (due to the werewolf thing ?) but not necessarily vice versa.
I have a question. How did Snape know about the battle that Draco and Harry were having in the bathroom. Does the Unbreakable have a warning that the one under protection is in danager. This just didn't set right with me. Why was it Snape that came in? Another Question, why was Snape misleading Bella at Spinners End about Harry's abilities, he states that Harry is average. We know, and so does Snape all the things Harry has done (The Patronus?, the Dementors, rescuing Sirius, etc) He wanted Bella to think less of Harry and Dumbledore (Todd Watts Jul 12, 2006 12:05 pm (#2723))
Well, I assumed that Snape was just generally following Draco around the place _ at the end, Draco says that Snape has been constantly pestering him about his plan. If Snape is on the good side, Dumbledore's orders (as stated on the Tower) are to keep an eye on Draco. If Snape is evil, it is probable that he has noticed Harry following Draco and keeps an eye on both to ensure Draco's plan goes OK.
At Spinner's End, it again depends which side Snape is on. If he's on the good side, he is trying to make Bellatrix underestimate Dumbledore and Harry, as other posts have suggested. If he's on the evil side _ well, as early as Book 3, we've seen Snape play down an enemy's abilities when he talks to Harry about James: whatever we may think of Snape or James, we all know that James was regarded as very good both academically and at Quidditch, but Snape cannot stand to acknowledge this.
Whichever side Snape is on, there is another issue, raised by Hermione in Book 1 when she says that there are things beyond books and cleverness and that Harry is a "great wizard" because of those things. Of course, she says this at a moment of great emotion for them both, as we all understand, but her words have a more long-term significance: I suspect that she recognises and values things which Snape cannot.
Snape, in "Spinner's End", attributes Harry's successes against the Dark Side to "luck, and more talented friends" _ I would assume that by the latter he means Hermione, though he wouldn't say so to Bellatrix. Snape probably recognises why people (like Lupin in Book 3) would call Hermione the cleverest witch of her year. But _ quite apart from his enmity with Harry _ he does not understand or value love a great deal: he instead places excessive emphasis on logic and subtlety. Even if he is on the good side, it's not surprising that this would lead him to regard Harry as "mediocre".
If it (his Dark Mark) was not known, Snape's revealing it, only moments before he returns to Voldemort's fold and spying for the order, may have been a much more significant and brave act than most of us have seen it as. (I still view this one of the most important reasons to believe that Snape Is Good.) (Ann Jul 12, 2006 4:34 pm (#2727))
I believe it was known to Dumbledore _ in the Book 4 Pensieve scene, Dumbledore's memory has Snape saying "It's coming back ... Karkaroff's, too".
Anyway, the trouble is that the essence of good spying is that all evidence which the side you're spying on can find, will point to your loyalty to that side. Snape illustrates this to Bellatrix by saying "I returned on Dumbledore's orders" (to her momentary shock).
Snape reveals the Dark Mark to Fudge after Dumbledore has finished speaking _ yes, it may be a loyal gesture of support, but if he's evil, it may be that he sees that there's no danger of Fudge believing Dumbledore, and simply intervenes to cement Dumbledore's trust in him.
And since we've never heard about another spy for Dumbledore in Voldemort's camp ... (Ann Jul 13, 2006 5:32 am (#2731))
Are you sure ? I thought I read about Dumbledore's "spies" _ plural _ somewhere. Maybe I'm dreaming.
I find it very interesting that DD offered to be the secret keeper, but James refused that offer, instead ending up with Peter Pettigrew, even though he knew that DD feared someone close to the Potters was passing info to LV. We don't know if James knew that DD's fears stemmed in part from a spy's information, but I can understand Snape's feeling that it was arrogance on James' part to choose one of the Marauders as a secret keeper even in the face of warnings. I expect that if McGonagall knew DD had offered to be secret keeper, Snape probably knew as well. I expect in Snape's view, James decision to disregard warnings about a weak link among his friends and to decline the offer of the most powerful trustworthy wizard to be secret keeper -- even at the risk of the lives of himself and his family -- are evidence of his great arrogance. And of course, those decisions lead to his own and Lily's deaths. (wynnleaf Jul 13, 2006 6:23 am (#2733))
(I assume that this is mainly based on Book 3 ?) My impression is that James refused the offer originally when it was a matter of choosing between Dumbledore and Sirius _ if Dumbledore communicated his misgivings to James, it's likely that James would indignantly affirm his trust in Sirius, his best friend. (He may even have felt that Sirius was being suspected by others due to his Slytherin family origins, and have felt defensive of him.) Sirius tells us that he persuaded James to change to Pettigrew at the last minute. This is a typically impetuous moment from Sirius _ and of course, one which he feels guilty for, for the rest of his life. In Book 5, Harry gets the impression that Sirius was the one person (when they're fifteen) who could change James's mind. Anyway, by the time James made his final choice, the option of Dumbledore was unlikely to be there, as they were rushing into hiding. Another thing to bear in mind is that we only know about Dumbledore's misgivings from McGonagall, so we don't know exactly what the discussions with James consisted of. To me, the key point is that James was correct about Sirius's loyalty _ and fatally, that led him to trust Sirius's judgement.
I largely agree with you about Snape's view of James's choice of Secret-Keeper. The only thing I'm not clear on is how much Snape knew at the time, and how much he learned afterwards. His words to Harry in Book 3, about James dying without admitting he might be mistaken in Sirius, make clear that (by Book 3) he is quite sure (like others) that Sirius was the Secret-Keeper. Where Snape does wrong is in trying to hang on to this view, for the sake of a grudge, when logic is threatening it.
Vulture - Jul 15, 2006 11:51 am (#2760 of 2969)
Edited Jul 15, 2006 1:11 pm
I found a site that many of you may find helpful to bookmark. I won't leave the actual link, because it may link on to some objectionable things -- I just don't know. But if you Google, in quotations marks, "Professor Severus Snape's Quotes" you will get two links to a site that has ALL of the quotes from the texts of Books 1-4 that relate to Snape. I think under Google you'll get links to one or two of the pages, and the rest of links are at the bottom of the pages at the site. Look around and you'll see what I mean. There's a separate page for each of the 1st four books, with all of the text relating to Snape.
I found it very interesting to read through it. It's especially interesting to read it with a conscious effort to weed out the Harry point-of-view bias. When you do that, there are actually only a few places where Snape goes beyond the line of what a typical very strict teacher might say or do. And you can really see the degree of bias toward the students point of view. For instance, the students were "forced" to learn about antidotes. Neville getting detention of disembowling toads for melting down his cauldron was presented as though that was akin to torture. A potions essay assignment on poisons is described as nasty. The list can go on and on.
Also, if you look objectively and from the point of view of a strict teacher, most of the punishments (note, I said "most"), are not out of line, but All of the punishments as well as other actions by Snape are presented from the point of view of students who consider them unfair. (wynnleaf Jul 13, 2006 9:47 am (#2735))
No, I'm sorry, but (surprise, surprise !!) I don't agree. In Book 1, Snape tells the whole class to look at "the perfect way Malfoy had stewed his horned slugs". Nothing wrong in praise for a good student, but in a later book, when he sets a very difficult potion, Hermione (naturally !!) does it perfectly. Yet Snape, after carefully examining it, says absolutely nothing _ because Hermione is Muggle-born and not a Slytherin.
We have two explicit incidents of students being late for a Snape class _ Harry and Malfoy. In Harry's case, Snape immediately takes points; in Malfoy's, he simply says "Settle down, settle down" to the class in general.
In Harry's very first class with Snape, Snape rounds on Harry for not telling Neville how to do his potion. This is not only unfair _ it's blatantly ludicrous, as Harry's attention had been on his own cauldron ... well, I don't need to explain _ this one is obvious, isn't it ? Besides, when Hermione does try to help others with their work, Snape doesn't like that either.
I haven't even bothered with all the various ways Snape fulfils Ron's Book 1 statement that "they say he always favours them (Slytherins)", but one will suffice. In Book 4, Harry and Malfoy duel but injure others by mistake _ Goyle and Hermione. Snape arrives and immediately sends the Slytherin to hospital. Yet, though Hermione's two front teeth are growing down to the floor, Snape not only does nothing but says "I see no difference" _ deliberately humiliating her about a part of her appearance about which she has always felt self-conscious. We know that this is a common Slytherin taunt at Hermione because Malfoy has done an impression of leaping up and down with his hand up for questions _ and buck teeth.
Snape is not a strict-but-fair teacher _ he is a cruel and petty one. McGonagall is a strict teacher _ almost to the extent of being tougher on her own House than any other. The difference is quite clear. I suggest that, in any question about Snape's class behaviour, we simply stop to imagine how McGonagall would have handled the same incident. That should make things clear.
Snape bears all the signs of someone who has known so little love that by now it's almost unbearable when it is offered. (Harry sees signs of this problem in Snape's memories in Book 5.) We know of precisely two characters who show liking for Snape _ Dumbledore and (until Book 6) Draco Malfoy. This explains much of his behaviour and demeanour, even when he tries to do good (like refereeing to protect Harry in Book 1).
Snape is a fascinating character, and if he's on the good side, he is doing one of the hardest and most moving things any human can do _ trying to be a good person while saddled with appalling personality problems: like a conscientious driver in a wreck of a car. But he is not a good teacher _ not even a strict teacher. We are shown two different models of successful teaching: McGonagall and Lupin. Snape approximates to neither.
By the way, I looked up "Professor Severus Snape's Quotes", thanks. The sites are very interesting, but didn't affect my view of Snape.
Choices - Jul 15, 2006 12:22 pm (#2761 of 2969)
I know Snape appears to favor Draco, but I often wonder if this is not in conjunction with his spy job - he tries to impress Lucius and stay close to him by favoring his son - that way he is in with Lucius and can gain insider information from him.
Saracene - Jul 15, 2006 8:15 pm (#2762 of 2969)
Vulture, I agree with you 100%. Except that I probably wouldn't necessarily attribute Snape's attitude to Hermione to her muggle-born origin. But no, I don't see Snape as strict-but-fair teacher at all either.
Mrs Brisbee - Jul 16, 2006 3:10 am (#2763 of 2969)
Vulture, I agree with you too!
wynnleaf - Jul 16, 2006 6:35 am (#2764 of 2969)
Edited Jul 16, 2006 7:44 am
I agree that Snape is not a fair teacher, but that was not the point of my post. What I was trying to point out was that over and over, regardless of what Snape does, even on the many occasions when his actions or punishments are not unfair, the narration is written as though they are unfair, or the students comment on it as though it's unfair. I believe that it's written that way because JKR wants us to only see Snape's actions through the pov of "everything he does is mean or unfair," and she also wants the students to only be viewing Snape that way.
Here's some examples:
In SS/PS Harry has Quidditch Through the Ages outside. Snape stops him and asks what he's got, and takes the book saying that books aren't allowed outside of the school. Harry assumes, "he just made that rule up."
Draco verbally provokes Ron. Ron physically dives at him just as Snape comes into view. Hagrid tells Snape Ron was provoked. Snape says that regardless, fighting is prohibited and takes 5 points from Ron.
As they make a Forgetfulness potion, Snape is described as making them all nervous by breathing down their necks. Many teachers walk around classrooms while students work, but in Snape's case, it's presented as a negative.
And of course, everything Snape was doing in that book was described from the view of being extraordinarily suspicious. When Harry's wandering the halls or the restricted section at night, avoiding Snape is written as though Harry's avoiding someone evil who might stop him from his noble purpose. Obviously the readers are supposed to be suspicious of Snape, just like Harry is, and the way actions are described contribute to that.
In COS:
During entire incident where Snape catches Harry and Ron sneaking into Hogwarts after flying there in the car, Snape is described as though everything he said was unfair, but actually what Snape said was correct and fair. Even DD said that if Harry and Ron did anything like that again they'd be expelled.
In the scene where the trio steal ingredients from Snape's storeroom, the whole thing is presented as though it were some covert operation in enemy territory. You find yourself sort of cheering HRH on. Snape is pretty sure Harry was up to something and at the end of that scene we read, "Snape can't prove it was you," said Ron reassuringly to Harry. "What can he do?" "Knowing Snape, something foul," said Harry as the potion frothed and bubbled. It's presented as though HRH activities are good and justified and if Snape learns what Harry did and does anything to Harry because of it, it's "foul."
In POA, there's a class where Draco's arm had been injured (it wasn't a fake injury, even if he made it last a lot longer than necessary). Ron was told to cut up Draco's ingredients for him, so he cut them up very poorly. Snape made him exchange his own well-cut ingredients with the poorly cut ones he did for Draco. Ron acts like this was unfair and it wasn't. In the same class, Snape tells Hermione not to help Neville with his potion. She does anyway and later Snape takes 5 points because she helped Neville. Ron exclaims that Snape took 5 points because the potion was right. Of course, he didn't. He took 5 points because Hermione had done exactly what he told her not to do. As regards feeding the potion to Trevor, that was certainly a threat Snape had made to Neville, which was wrong and certainly helped terrify Neville. We don't know whether Snape would really have done anything that would actually hurt the toad (Snape hasn't actually shown any tendencies like that). You can't help but wonder why Neville carries his pet to class anyway -- no one else appears to. But still, I agree that Snape shouldn't have threatened to dose the toad -- especially to Neville, who would believe he'd really do it.
In POA, when Snape teaches the DADA class about werewolves, he asks questions of the class and Hermione is the only one to put up her hand and he doesn't call on her. She answers out of turn. Unlike in the film, Ron says out loud, "You asked us a question and she knows the answer! Why ask if you don't want to be told?" Ron gets detention. While readers can easily see that Ron was being disrespectful in tone, the general sentiment seems right to us. It's easy to remember Harry, in his first class of potions, when Snape has asked him questions he doesn't know, suggesting to Snape that he ask Hermione the questions since she seems to know the answers. It's a typical notion of many students that teachers ask the class questions in order to find out the answers -- which is simply not true. Teachers ask classes questions to find out what they know, not to find out the answers. While students who know most all the answers often want, and should get, the opportunity to answer a certain number of questions, it usually doesn't do anyone in the class much good for the teacher to call on the extremely knowledgeable student to answer questions. The teacher knows the answer and knows that the very knowledgeable student knows, too. The other students aren't going to learn better from hearing the top student spout off the answer -- often the rest of the students just tune out when a dialogue starts between the teacher and the class top student. But in the case of Snape's classes, we're given the perspective of the students, who act as though Snape's not calling on Hermione is unfair, or that a student telling or suggesting to Snape to call on Hermione is somehow a reasonable thing to tell him.
As is typical, Snape's confrontations with Harry at night in the halls, or regarding being in Hogsmeade, are presented as Harry talking to an enemy who has to be thwarted, rather than a confrontation with a teacher who is legitimately recognizing and trying to get to the bottom of Harry's breaking rules.
I'll stop here. Please, please note. I'm not trying to say Snape is this perfectly fair and just teacher. What I'm trying to point out is that the students and narration presents everything Snape does as though it's all unfair or mean, or as though it's all an action of an "enemy" of Harry's. The reader is trained to see everything Snape does from the "this is the enemy of Harry, and everything he does has bad motives" perspective. But if you look at it all objectively, it doesn't necessarily come across that way. Some does. Yes, Snape dislikes Harry and yes, he's biased toward Slytherin, and yes, he say's mean things to some of the students. But that doesn't actually mean that everything that we see him do is as mean or unfair as it's presented.
I'm reminded of the expression, a "snow job," except instead of positive it's a negative slant. In other words, an effort is made to convince the reader of Snape's complete nastiness, by not allowing any incident with Snape to go by without putting it in a bad light.
Catherine - Jul 16, 2006 7:07 am (#2765 of 2969)
The reader is trained to see everything Snape does from the "this is the enemy of Harry, and everything he does has bad motives" perspective. But if you look at it all objectively, it doesn't necessarily come across that way. Some does. Yes, Snape dislikes Harry and yes, he's biased toward Slytherin, and yes, he say's mean things to some of the students. But that doesn't actually mean that everything that we see him do is as mean or unfair as it's presented. --Wynnleaf
During entire incident where Snape catches Harry and Ron sneaking into Hogwarts after flying there in the car, Snape is described as though everything he said was unfair, but actually what Snape said was correct and fair. Even DD said that if Harry and Ron did anything like that again they'd be expelled.--Wynnleaf
I think the issue for me, as a reader in that scene, is not whether the boys committed a wrongful act. It could appear to the reader that Snape is very eager for the boys to be expelled. That doesn't seem "correct and fair" to me, never mind that I find it unprofessional.
In POA, there's a class where Draco's arm had been injured (it wasn't a fake injury, even if he made it last a lot longer than necessary). --Wynnleaf
Snape could have asked a Slytherin to help Draco. He could have asked anyone else in the class, BUT he purposely choose the two students that would provide Draco with enjoyment. Never mind the fact that I think Draco's arm had been mended quickly by Madame Pomfrey and that he was shamming there (this shamming helped Draco to get Hagrid into trouble and appeared to get him special treatment). I think Snape is far too smart to be manipulated by Draco, so I question Snape's motives here.
n POA, when Snape teaches the DADA class about werewolves, he asks questions of the class and Hermione is the only one to put up her hand and he doesn't call on her. She answers out of turn. --Wynnleaf
Snape was being unprofessional regarding Professor Lupin. Snape was disrespectful toward Professor Lupin's handling of the DADA class. He also insulted the class for not having covered material at the end of the textbook. Respect is a two-way street.
Snape's actions are questionable without resorting to "the reader is trained to see Snape as an enemy."
Soul Search - Jul 16, 2006 7:11 am (#2766 of 2969)
wynnleaf, well thought out and presented. Clearly, JKR is presenting Snape in the worst light possible.
Might add, that even when Snape does do something good for Harry, it is largely dismissed. For example, in SS we learn from Quirrel/Voldemort that Snape was trying to counter the broom hex, rather than creating the hex, but it is quickly dismissed (although Hermione mentions it later.) Both the source of the information and the information itself demean the act, rather than place it in a proper perspective.
My read is all this demeaning Snape is so we will be surprised when Snape saves Harry in Book Seven.
Solitaire - Jul 16, 2006 8:25 am (#2767 of 2969)
Edited Jul 16, 2006 9:27 am
Snape is always careful to adhere to the letter of the rules, but he ignores the spirit of the rules. I have no quarrel with him taking 5 points from Ron for fighting. Where he crossed the line into unfairness was not taking the same 5 from Malfoy. But he did that because he could do it. It's this type of behavior that makes me dislike him.
I believe Snape takes every possible opportunity to punish Harry for scores he couldn't even with James--either because he couldn't get away with it at school or because James died too soon to allow him the opportunity to get even man-to-man. Either way, Snape makes Harry miserable because he can. Snape abuses his power.
I agree, too, that Snape is unprofessional in how he handles the business about Remus. That is another payback from his youth. He does it because he can. Snape's behavior to the Gryffindor kids just underlines how truly petty and emotionally immature he is. It's sad ... Snape seems to have everything it takes to be a truly gifted Wizard like Dumbledore ... everything except humanity and a heart. Even if he does turn out to be on the side of good, his manner of dealing with people has cost him so many opportunities to influence a lot of kids in a positive way. How sad for a teacher ...
Solitaire
wynnleaf - Jul 16, 2006 11:40 am (#2768 of 2969)
It's interesting that JKR has done such an excellent job at convincing the readers of Snape's complete nastiness. I'm always amazed at how often you see the notion that Snape is constantly trying to get Harry expelled, or would like to see him expelled. In fact, Snape mentions it once in Book 1, when he knows that it was Harry out in the night in the restricted section of the Library, and is warning him about doing that again; and again at the first of COS when Snape is taking Harry and Ron to task over the flying car -- an incident that apparently even DD thought an offence that could (if repeated) warrent expulsion.
Snape says to his potions class at large, during a COS scene, that if he finds out who intentionally threw wrong ingredients into the cauldrons, intentionally causing an explosion and injuries, that he'd seek their expulsion. Of course, he thinks Harry is responsible, but it was something Harry did intentionally, was quite wrong and irresponsibly endangering other students, and didn't even have a very good purpose behind it.
In POA Snape suggests that another student would be suspended for leading his friends into danger as Harry did at the Shrieking Shack. But suspension is not expulsion.
In GOF, Harry thinks about Snape having saved his life before, but also giving him punishments and suggesting that he be suspended. Notice, Harry recalls Snape suggesting he be suspended, but doesn't think about Snape as trying to get him expelled.
In any case, after POA, Snape has not since tried to get Harry either expelled, or even suspended -- even after the Sectumsempra event.
Yet this idea persists among readers that Snape is always looking for any opportunity to try to get Harry expelled. JKR has done an excellent job in getting readers to think the worst of Snape.
Where he crossed the line into unfairness was not taking the same 5 from Malfoy. But he did that because he could do it.
Snape wasn't there when Draco made his comment; he only saw Ron's attack. In any case, verbal insults aren't generally considered in the same category of offense as physical attacks. Snape's response makes sense. And he didn't even give Ron detention. As to "he did that because he could..." we aren't told why he did it.
Snape's unprofessionalism with Remus really has little or nothing to do with Hermione's speaking out of turn in class and doesn't say anything about whether or not his reaction to her speaking out of turn was fair or not. I certainly have not tried to say Snape is fair in everything, or never unprofessional. There are obviously other examples of that, besides his retaliatory action to Remus' instructing Neville to turn his boggart of Snape into a figure of fun in the middle of the full DADA class (not exactly the most professional action, either).
Snape could have asked a Slytherin to help Draco. He could have asked anyone else in the class, BUT he purposely choose the two students that would provide Draco with enjoyment.
In that case, Draco, Harry and Ron were the only ones at the table. Regardless of whatever Draco's motivations may have been for sitting there, it was natural that the teacher would ask someone to help from the same table. It's only the way it's written that encourages us to believe that somehow Snape picked Ron and Harry out specially so that they'd have to help Draco and be angered. I've seen many times where one of my kids gets partnered with someone they dislike. Occasionally, they are angry that the teacher did the pairing -- why not someone they got along with? But rarely do they think the teacher did it just to make them upset.
Soul Search,
I agree. It's interesting how neither Harry, nor the readers, are ever put into a position to reflect on anything positive that Snape has done. It's like, once Snape does something positive it's never mentioned again, either in the narration or through dialog.
Catherine - Jul 16, 2006 12:07 pm (#2769 of 2969)
Snape's unprofessionalism with Remus really has little or nothing to do with Hermione's speaking out of turn in class and doesn't say anything about whether or not his reaction to her speaking out of turn was fair or not.--Wynnleaf
Well, I disagree. I think one could argue that Hermione does not want Snape to think that Lupin hasn't done a good job, or that the class is deficient.
It is also not Lupin's fault that Neville's boggart is Snape. It is also not Lupin's fault that Snape insulted Neville in front of Lupin and the DADA classmates. Snape was going to have to be laughable if Neville was to defeat the boggart. Again, in this instance, Snape instigated the events by drawing Lupin's attention to Neville.
wynnleaf - Jul 16, 2006 2:38 pm (#2770 of 2969)
Edited Jul 16, 2006 3:41 pm
On the topic of Snape taking Remus' DADA class, Hermione first interrupted to tell Snape that they weren't supposed to be on werewolves yet. The second time was to answer the question of distinctions of werewolves. Sure, she's doing it in part to offer info on where the class is in the book, and secondly to answer the question about werewolves. But surely even Hermione knows that her own knowledge about a topic is in no way indicative of what the class knows on the subject. It would be hard to believe that Hermione was insistent on answering that question so that Snape would think that Lupin was teaching them well. She, the rest of the class, and certainly any teacher including Snape is well aware that Hermione reads ahead and knows what's in the book. But the point isn't Hermione's motives for answering the question when she'd been directly told not to. Snape had already told her not to answer out-of-turn and she did it anyway. She wasn't proving anything about Lupin's teaching ability, since everyone in the room was well aware that Hermione must have learned it on her own. So Snape took 5 points, because she directly disobeyed him. Not unfair.
As to why I made an aside about Remus' professionalism with the boggart class.... Boggarts, as we learn in the books, and from JKR's comments, can be very personally revealing. Neville could just as easily have had a Death Eater boggart as Harry could have had a Voldemort boggart. Further, any student could have a boggart that involved other real people at varying levels of guilt or innocence for being that person's boggart -- opening up those people who are the subjects of the boggart to the need for ridicule (necessary, of course, to defeat the boggart). In my opinion, the confrontations with the boggart should not have been done openly before the whole class. I believe it was the OWL tests (or was it end-of-year exams 3rd year?) where the boggart test was done only before teachers? Anyway, I think working with the boggart in front of all the other kids was not a wise idea. Lupin should have seen that as soon as Neville told him what his greatest fear was. But Lupin didn't think of it until Harry came forward and Lupin realized that his boggart might be just too much for the class. I think that as soon as Lupin realized that another teacher would have be to held up for ridicule, and he as a teacher would have to support it, then he should have changed the plan and done it privately.
The fact that Snape had just finished publically ridiculing Neville does not make Lupin's actions justified. The old adage, "two wrongs don't make a right," seems to fit.
Catherine - Jul 16, 2006 3:46 pm (#2771 of 2969)
Edited Jul 16, 2006 4:50 pm
). In my opinion, the confrontations with the boggart should not have been done openly before the whole class. I believe it was the OWL tests (or was it end-of-year exams 3rd year?) where the boggart test was done only before teachers? --Wynnleaf
We learn in PoA, however, that it is better to deal with boggarts in company; the boggart is more easily confused. Was Lupin to privately tutor all third years on boggarts? When was this to have happened? That doesn't seem to be a good use of instructional time.
The students battled with a boggart in the third year exams inside of a trunk. This was probably done to test the students' competence in controlling the boggart without outside interference-- a one-on-one experience. Harry watched Ron and Hermione take their DADA practical; there was nothing secret about it.
I did not suggest that "two wrongs make a right"; I was suggesting that Snape's actions opened the door to the events that followed.
Hermione's intention was not to be disobedient, disrespectful, or rebellious. She was not the only student to speak "out of turn," as Parvati and Dean did also. Merely docking the points from Gryffindor would have sufficed, but he called her "an insufferable little know-it-all" in front of the entire class and brought tears to her eyes. That goes beyond what a strict teacher would do. I still believe that Hermione was defending Lupin and her class; Snape had just made the statement about "informing Professor Dumbledore how very behind you are" (Scholastic 172) when Hermione spoke out of turn the second time.
It's been a while since I read Fantastic Beasts, but I believe that Snape was in error when he said that "That is incorrect, the kappa is more commonly found in Mongolila." (Scholastic 172) If he's going to criticize Lupin, perhaps he should get his facts straight!
Yep, Snape was in error. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
It is also quite hypocritical for Snape to come to Lupin's class, denigrate Lupin's teaching and the students, and then threaten Ron with "And if I ever hear you criticize the way I teach a class again, you will be very sorry indeed." (Scholastic 172)
Die Zimtzicke - Jul 16, 2006 5:05 pm (#2772 of 2969)
Edited Jul 16, 2006 6:07 pm
I absolutely and totally agree with wynnleaf's posts. (Why does that not surprise anyone? LOL!) I don't care if you have the nastiest teacher on earth, you have to remember that they are in charge, and you have to follow whatever rules they set up. If the kids think some of their teachers are ridiculous, wait until they get the bosses from hell that we all run into at some point in our lives.
Solitaire - Jul 16, 2006 7:11 pm (#2773 of 2969)
Snape wasn't there when Draco made his comment; he only saw Ron's attack.
It wouldn't matter if Snape were there or not. He does not bother to get the facts, as fair teachers do. He just socks it to the Gryffindor kids.
I agree, Catherine, that Hermione was defending a teacher whom she believed had been teaching the class well. Snape doesn't like Remus and took the opportunity to not only denigrate him but insult Hermione into the bargain. It must have been bad if the kids, who agreed Hermione was a know-it-all, concurred that Snape hit below the belt: It was a mark of how much the class loathed Snape that they were all glaring at him, because every one of them had called Hermione a know-it-all at least once, and Ron, who told Hermione she was a know-it-all at least twice a week ...
Once again, even if Snape does turn out to have been truly on Dumbledore's side all along, he is still a miserable human being. I think it is tragic that he has allowed his personal resentment of the Marauders to turn him into a petty tyrant with the kids. His attitude and behavior have rendered him incapable of positively influencing a group of kids who probably would have repaid his efforts with the respect he has always craved. I think that loss is a sad legacy for any teacher ... especially one as gifted as Snape.
Solitaire
Ann - Jul 17, 2006 5:01 am (#2774 of 2969)
Edited Jul 17, 2006 6:07 am
I agree with everyone who says that Snape should probably not be teaching. Trelawney probably shouldn't be, either, for very different reasons. Both of them are there because of the war. Snape is obviously not incompetent (his students do very well on O.W.L.s and even Umbridge admits that they're well ahead of what they should be doing), but he is impatient and easy to anger. He'd do better in an elective class, where the students wanted to be there, and with older students who can deal with an occasional snide remark. I should think that his N.E.W.Ts classes are extremely demanding and stimulating for those students who choose to take them.
He has also learned, as hot tempered people have to, to use words rather than violence to express his anger. (And as Ron needs to--no verbal provocation justifies physical violence, and Snape hardly needs to ‘get the facts’ of the situation if that's the only justification the Gryffindors are offering when he takes the five points. If Ron had said something cutting and Draco had let loose with his fists, no one would have any patience with Snape if he waited to ‘get the facts.’) He's very good at using words, perhaps too good. But he treats children as little adults, as many childless people who are not particularly close to children do, and he over-estimates their ability to deal with hurtful words. The one time we do see violence used with a student, the Pensieve incident, the provocation was extreme, and, it seems to me he's making a herculean effort to control it or direct it elsewhere (throwing the jar over the door, not at Harry directly). It's a failure, but we all fail sometimes. Hogwarts is not heaven, and the people there are not perfect, considerate, and controlled at every moment. What fun would that be?
All that said, I think that the points made by wynnleaf and Soul Search are very well taken. They've been arguing that JKR has used Harry's point of view to make reasonable discipline sound unreasonable, to make harshness and sarcasm sound far worse than it is, and to play down any positive moments. This is just what Harry does himself, in his head, so it's completely justified in the books. But it also has the effect of making Snape seem much worse than he is, and aiding in authorial misdirection. The very consistency with which she does this is one of the main reasons I am SURE that Snape is going to turn out to be Dumbledore's man through and through.
All great literature (as well as a lot of not so great, of course) requires that the hero/heroine change and grow. The turning point of any story is when the hero realizes he's been wrong and grows up a little. If you look at Pride and Prejudice (one of JKR's favorite books), you can see some similarities between Snape and Darcy (hence, I suspect, a lot of the fan fiction). Both are good at cutting words and inconsiderate of the feelings of others. But when Elizabeth compares Darcy with a real villain, she realizes that beneath the surface nastiness, he's a man of honor and generosity in his actions. She's acted on the assumption that he was evil, and she's wronged him. I will therefore predict that, by the end of the series, Harry will have a similar revelation about Snape, and we will get a scene something like:
[He] grew absolutely ashamed of [him]self. Of neither [Snape] nor [whoever turns out to be the traitor] could [he] think without feeling that [he] had been blind, partial, prejudiced, absurd.
"How despicably have I acted!" [he] cried; "I, who have prided myself on my discernment! I, who have valued myself on my abilities! Who have often disdained the generous candour of [Hermione], and gratified my vanity in useless or blameable distrust. How humiliating is this discovery! Yet how just a humiliation! Had I been in love, I could not have been more wretchedly blind. But vanity, not love, has been my folly. Pleaseed with the preference of [the traitor], and offended by the neglect of [Snape], on the very beginning of our acquaintance, I have courted prepossession and ignorance, and driven reason away, where either were concerned. Till this moment, I never knew myself."
Of course, I don't think Harry will use quite the same words as Elizabeth did; and there may not actually be a traitor for contrast, as there is in Book 3 where Sirius and Wormtail have their positions reversed at the climax. And I'm not at all sure that Snape will acknowledge his mistakes and make an attempt to be more considerate and less arrogant, as Darcy does. But he might.
(Sorry about the long post!)
wynnleaf - Jul 17, 2006 6:39 am (#2775 of 2969)
Edited Jul 17, 2006 7:56 am
Ann, it's interesting that you would use Austen's works in comparison. I have thought about this very thing quite a bit the last few weeks after running across JKR's comments on Austen.
"I love a good whodunnit and my passion is plot construction. Readers loved to be tricked, but not conned," Rowling says, warming to her theme. "The best twist ever in literature is in Jane Austen's Emma. To me she is the target of perfection at which we shoot in vain." This was from the Readers Digest, 2000
Now, read this interesting analysis of "Emma," focusing on just how the author manages to trick the reader. This is written by Jitender Rajpoot, at Cal State and is titled "The 'Seeming' Reality."
In Jane Austen’s Emma, we catch a glimpse of a character that seems to be attuned to her surroundings, and who is observant enough to provide us with a glimpse into the interior world of her supporting cast. This effect is attained by the writing style of the author who provides us with a seemingly omniscient narration that appears to travel within the consciousness of her characters. However, there is an undermining irony operating throughout the text which makes a more effective claim than what a superficial reading might suggest. The inability of Emma to perceive the true intentions of other characters, or as Harriet states “see into the heart” of others, actually envelops the reader as well. The narration of the novel makes us as vulnerable to take superficiality as reality as does the plot in misdirecting Emma.
Austen achieves the art of misdirecting the reader by getting him caught up in the mundane details that border precision, but in reality serve to get him enraptured in a feeling of trusting the narrator. At times we are regaled the same account of events from different perspectives, which lead us to believe the validity of the event because there is corroboration from different characters. Ironically, this is a fault that we are critiquing in Emma who takes superficial details to infer something deeper (truthful). Just as she misconstrues signs, we take the corroboration of events to lead us down a misdirected path. And this is a crucial effect of Austen’s writing style- have the reader believe all that is told to him as if the narrator has an inner view into the character’s motivation (omniscient perspective), but the deception is that in reality the narrator is limited......
Just as Emma is guilty of taking superficial details to confirm the pre-existing convictions in her mind, we are at fault to consider the narrator to be all-knowing and honest with us. Austen plays a trick on Emma by pulling the rug from underneath her feet, and we are duped analogously for confirming our convictions by taking the events of the story to be relayed in an unbiased fashion.
"Emma" -- JKR's "target of perfection" for tricking the reader. Do I think JKR is doing this with HP? Yes, indeed. Read back and replace "Emma" with "Harry" and "Austen" with "Rowling." Think back on how many times readers say that Harry has a lot of insight into characters and situations. Is this true? We're supposed to feel that it's true, but is it really? Think how wrong he was about Quirrell, the young Tom Riddle, and fake-Moody. What else might we find he's been wrong about? I'm betting it won't just be Snape.
Solitaire - Jul 17, 2006 7:15 am (#2776 of 2969)
Edited Jul 17, 2006 8:17 am
Gee, Ann, I hope I don't see Lizzy's words coming from Harry! While I will admit I can see your parallel--Snape, like Darcy, feeling it is beneath him to lay open his reasons for acting as he does--we are dealing with two different kinds of characters. I do not believe Darcy's intent was ever to hurt Elizabeth, whereas I believe Snape's intent is to inflict any kind of pain he can get away with inflicting.
Leaving that issue aside, however, the second time Darcy declares his love--back in Meryton, following the engagement of Jane and Bingley--he confesses to Elizabeth that his interference has been absurd and his behavior inappropriate. If you wish to see a confession such as Lizzy's from Harry, I long for a confession from Snape to Harry, that he has behaved abominably. Alas, I think Harry has more humility and would be able to admit he has been wrong, in the end--if he is. I do not have such hopes for Snape. If allowed to live, I think Harry will grow up emotionally. Snape never really has.
Austen achieves the art of misdirecting the reader by getting him caught up in the mundane details that border precision, but in reality serve to get him enraptured in a feeling of trusting the narrator.
Interesting, Wynnleaf ... I didn't feel misdirected at all in Emma. I remember the first time I read the novel. I had problems with Emma from the moment she interfered with Harriet's acceptance of Robert Martin's proposal. After that, I never trusted her. How interesting that I feel that way about Snape, too.
Solitaire
wynnleaf - Jul 17, 2006 7:34 am (#2777 of 2969)
Edited Jul 17, 2006 8:41 am
Hmm, oh well, JKR was obviously surprised. I'm assume, by the primary surprise plot twist, JKR meant the surprise about Frank Churchill, his true intentions and motivations. I certainly didn't guess it. But I guess Austen couldn't fool everyone.
In any case, regardless who was or wasn't fooled by Austen's plot - the point is that JKR thought it was the standard of all surprise plots, and that's the kind of thing she says she likes to write. So whether or not Austen fooled everyone isn't the point. The point is that JKR wants to trick people and is likely using the methods of Austen to do it. So the question isn't whether you were tricked by Austen, but whether you are being tricked by JKR.
After that, I never trusted her. How interesting that I feel that way about Snape, too.
The stories are not told from Snape's point of view. If JKR is using Austen's method, it would be Harry's point of view, and by extension the narrator's pov, that you shouldn't trust.
Catherine - Jul 17, 2006 8:02 am (#2778 of 2969)
There is still "omniscience" about the narration of the novels. The reader sees events unfold that Harry does not see. I'm not inclined to distrust Harry's feelings about Snape; Harry has legitimate reasons to feel hostile toward Snape.
I also think that I have pointed out that even without Harry's feelings about Snape in the way, the reader can see that Snape's actions are unacceptable. Does this mean that Snape still could be working for good in the end? Yes. But do I think that JKR means for her readers to mitigate the severity of Snape's actions? No, I absolutely do not.
As for Emma, I think that Austen did show her readers that Emma is just a little too satisfied and a little too smug. As Solitaire mentions, Austen allows her readers plenty of opportunity to see that Emma has some learning and growing to do. Similarly, JKR has allowed her readers to see the ways in which Harry has to learn and grown.
I really do not think that the comparison of Darcy and Snape fits, although I agree with Solitaire that for such a comparison to work, it would need to be a mutual exhchange.
wynnleaf - Jul 17, 2006 8:36 am (#2779 of 2969)
Edited Jul 17, 2006 9:36 am
We, the readers, don't find outselves mistaken about Frank Churchill's relationship with Jane Fairfax because we're believing Emma's interpretation of events. Note the paragraph below from "The 'Seeming' Reality."
Just as Emma is guilty of taking superficial details to confirm the pre-existing convictions in her mind, we are at fault to consider the narrator to be all-knowing and honest with us. Austen plays a trick on Emma by pulling the rug from underneath her feet, and we are duped analogously for confirming our convictions by taking the events of the story to be relayed in an unbiased fashion.
It's not that we believe Emma herself, but that we find ourselves doing the same thing Emma is doing -- looking at events as we see them (or as the narrator leads us to see them) and drawing the wrong conclusion. The problem is not that we believe Emma, but that we believe the narrator which, unrecognized to us, is following a very Emma-centric point of view.
This is what JKR is in all likelihood doing with Harry. It's not that the readers trust everything Harry thinks. It's that the reader interprets things based on a narration that is sort of "Harry-centric." We only see what Harry sees, and we fall into many of the same traps Harry does. The problem isn't solely trusting Harry, it's trusting the narrator. This is where Austen catches her readers. She convinces them to trust an untrustworthy narrator. If JKR -- who clearly admires Austen's methods -- is doing the same thing, then we can't just not trust Harry's interpretation of events, we have to be careful of the narrator, too.
That's what I've been trying to point out in the parts of the text about Snape. It's not that the narrator is directly lying to us. But the narrator pushes us to view things from a particular direction which is pretty much the same as the way Harry sees it.
Here's an example from "Emma" as described in "The 'Seeming' Reality."
For instance, the pianoforte that arrives as a gift for Jane Fairfax ends up being allotted to Mr. Knightley. The presentation of the events is why the reader is led to believe the validity of this conclusion. Firstly, we hear of Jane’s surprise upon the reception of the unexpected gift, and are quickly directed towards Col. Campbell being the culprit. However, the deductive conversation between the characters guides us to Mr. and Mrs. Dixon as being the responsible party for the pianoforte. This conclusion seems to satisfy the needs of the characters and so the subsequent sequence concerns the flirtation between Frank Churchill and Emma, but we are tempted to consider a third possibility for the gift- Mr. Knightley. The narrator is clever to encode this inference by making Mr. Knightley to be in love with Miss. Fairfax, which is a twofold validation for our conclusion that he must be the culprit. This conclusion is reinforced by the repetitive concern Mr. Knightley shows towards Miss. Fairfax...
Note. It is not Emma's belief that the reader tends toward. It is the belief toward which the narrator directs the reader -- which is incorrect and based on some false leads. This is what I think JKR is doing with Snape (and maybe with a lot more that I'm just not seeing). She uses the narration, sequences of events, etc. to build up a "case" in the reader's mind to direct them toward a false conclusion. And it is very difficult to read it from an objective view point instead of the narration, because we think that the narration is objective, when it is not.
Wow, I think I'd better take a break!!
Catherine - Jul 17, 2006 9:16 am (#2780 of 2969)
Edited Jul 17, 2006 10:16 am
We only see what Harry sees, and we fall into many of the same traps Harry does. --Wynnleaf
Actually, as I said in my previous post, we DO see things that Harry does not see.
Narrators are often "unreliable" in various ways. We may yet discover more about Harry's reliability vs. unreliability. But there is still an overriding omnisicient narrator who shows/tells us things that Harry is not privy to. I will be interested to see how that plays out in the 7th book.
I don't consider myself falling into a trap just because I think that Snape is a nasty person. He may well have been acting for the ultimate good, but that does not mean I am seeing him through a distorted lens. Harry, in fact, may be "seeing through a glass darkly" when it comes to Snape, and he will, perhaps, have an opportunity to see Snape more clearly and find some measure of forgiveness for him.
I think that I, as the reader, see Snape more clearly than Harry does. That said, I still think Snape is a nasty bit of work, and a fascinating character.
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