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Deaths in Book Seven
Elanor Sat May 28, 2011 2:41 am
Deaths in Book Seven
Kip Carter - Jul 22, 2007 4:42 pm
co-Host with Steve on the Lexicon Forum, but he has the final say as the Owner!
Edited Sep 26, 2007 4:16 am
This thread is to discuss the Deaths in Book Seven. It was suggested by Phelim Mcintyre .
This topic serves as an archive of a thread from the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum as hosted on World Crossing which ceased operation on April 15, 2011. Elanor
Kip Carter - Jul 22, 2007 4:42 pm
co-Host with Steve on the Lexicon Forum, but he has the final say as the Owner!
Edited Sep 26, 2007 4:16 am
This thread is to discuss the Deaths in Book Seven. It was suggested by Phelim Mcintyre .
Elanor- Hufflepuff Prefect
- Posts : 1440
Join date : 2011-02-19
Age : 51
Location : France
Deaths in Book Seven (Post 1 to 50)
Elanor Sat May 28, 2011 2:41 am
aggieamy - Jul 22, 2007 5:08 pm (#1 of 127)
Wow. 1st post.
What was the worst death for everyone in DH?
I was crushed by Fred. Poor George. Percy completely redeemed himself for me by showing how much he cared for Fred. He couldn't even hardly pull himself away from his brothers body. That was the worst for me.
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TomProffitt - Jul 22, 2007 5:15 pm (#2 of 127)
Bullheaded empiricist
When Jo mentioned how she cried as she finished writing I was convinced that a character close to her and the readers would die. My first thought was for Hagrid, but I really feared for everyone.
While there were many deaths, most were peripheral characters and not main characters like the six who fought in the Ministry in OP. I was actually relieved that Fred, Lupin, and Tonks were the "worst" of it. I was expecting Harry and Ginny and Molly to all die.
Well, I guess I was afraid for all of the characters, but I expected Ron & Hermione to live.
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The giant squid - Jul 22, 2007 5:25 pm (#3 of 127)
I guess Fred hit me the hardest, just because it seems so wrong to break up the twins.
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Soul Search - Jul 22, 2007 5:37 pm (#4 of 127)
I was surprised (or something) that Bellatrix's death came at Molly's wand. Molly fought fiercely ... and triumphed. Mother cat protecting her kittens sort of thing.
Bellatrix is one of the few Death Eaters that we see actually die, at least up until the centuars etal join the fray.
I guess Neville couldn't deal with Bellatrix because she had to die, and Neville's soul was too pure for him to do it.
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Soul Search - Jul 22, 2007 5:46 pm (#5 of 127)
If Snape had to die, I would have wished for something more noble than being bitten by Nagini, and for a reason that was wrong.
I suppose I can say that Harry and Snape were finally reconciled. Snape gave Harry the memory and then asked Harry to "Look ... at ... me ..."
Harry gave his second son "Severus" for a middle name and told him "you were named for two headmasters of Hogwarts. One of them was a Slytherin and he was probably the bravest man I ever knew." That son had Lily's eyes.
I guess I can accept that.
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CatBailey - Jul 22, 2007 6:37 pm (#6 of 127)
Hedwig and Dobby both hit me really hard because I didn't expect them to die - both being relatively defenseless against wizards (or at least, in Dobby's case, not permitted to carry a wand, and not prone to attacking wizards.)
Charity Burbage, we hardly knew you - but I thought that was one of the creepiest chapters in the whole series. And I was horrified when I realized that the only reason she'd been suspended above that table, waiting for death and hoping against hope that help would arrive somehow, was because she taught Muggle studies and advocated better Muggle - Wizard relations.
I was sad to see Mad-Eye go so soon, but relieved it wasn't Hagrid (that early in the book, anyway - I really didn't expect Hagrid to live), but Tonks' line "You-Know-Who acted exactly as Mad-Eye expected him to...he'd expect the real Harry to be with the toughest, most skilled Aurors. He chased Mad-Eye first..." helped me get over it pretty quickly - he had to have expected that if they were ambushed, he would probably be in the most danger, and he'd have wanted to go down fighting.
I've been performing in a play the past couple of weeks, and since I wasn't finished before I had to go to the theatre, I took it with me. Fred died right before the show started, and in the random spots of free time I had during the show, I also read about Lupin, Tonks, and Snape's deaths - Lupin and Snape I expected to go, but not the way they went (especially Lupin and Tonks "offstage" deaths.) I had to touch-up my eye makeup very frequently with all the crying I was doing.
And Colin Creevey made me very sad, too - he could be annoying at times, but such a sweet, brave kid.
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wynnleaf - Jul 22, 2007 6:41 pm (#7 of 127)
I felt all of the earlier deaths were well done. Dobby's death and burial was very moving as well as truly helping to drive the plot and Harry's character development.
I felt Lupin and Tonk's deaths were poorly done. For such an important character I was shocked that we simply discovered Lupin was dead along with Tonks. So much could have been made of their deaths and wasn't.
Snape's death was particularly sad because he died still thinking that no one living knew his loyalty and the intent behind his actions. He was still being called a coward by people he'd worked with in the Order and at Hogwarts. And he died with no assurance that Harry would even look at the memories. And last, because Lily had never forgiven him, I had this feeling that he died with no one to go to after death. Unlike Harry's parents, the Marauders, and even Albus, I just didn't feel like anyone was waiting for Snape. Maybe Albus, but their relationship was a little harder to consider warm after DH. And then Snape's death turned out to be almost meaningless in that it didn't gain LV anything, and didn't really gain Harry anything either, other than to provide an opportunity for Snape to pass along his memories.
Oh, and last, we saw nothing of anything being done about Snape's body as we did with the other heroes of the war. Last we were told, he was just left in the Shrieking Shack.
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Veritaserum - Jul 22, 2007 8:43 pm (#8 of 127)
Go Jays!
Fred's, Tonks, and Lupin's deaths really got to me. I see what you mean, about it being rather glossed over, but still, I think it was just as wrenching that they were both dead, just like that.
I'm very relieved that that was the worst of it as well. On the way in to the bookstore, someone had "Hermione dies" written on their car, and I did not know if this was just a prediction or a spoiler, so I was on edge every time any Death Eaters or Voldemort were around. It was very tense on that count, having to expect a "bloodbath." But as people have mentioned on the "questions not answered," I would like to know who the other 50 were.
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Puck - Jul 22, 2007 8:52 pm (#9 of 127)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Hedwig's death shocked me, being so sudden and unexpected.
I had expected to lose a twin, so sad as it was, I was braced for it.
For some reason, it was Dobby's that had me sobbing.
I guess all the Marauders had to be reunited in the end.
I expected Moody to pop up as an inferi, but was glad that he didn't.
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zelmia - Jul 22, 2007 10:19 pm (#10 of 127)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
With the number of Wealseys involved, we had to know that at least one of them wasn't going to make it. I was shocked that it was Fred (I had always believed it would be Ron, actually), and deeply moved by the way Percy was so overcome with grief. Still, I think we can take comfort in the fact that Fred's last words were to congratulate Percy on his sense of humour (a trait Fred valued above nearly all else), and that he was laughing and seemed to be enjoying himself.
Lupin's death was not surpising to me. All of his friends had gone on ahead of him, after all. Tonks, was a bit surprising. I had thought that since she and Lupin had a baby that she would stick around to raise him. However, I don't think we really needed to "see" their deaths to feel the loss of them.
Snape's death was not a surprise to me, but the manner was definitely unexpected. I agree with you, Wynnleaf, that after the dangerous life he chose for himself, he deserved at least some measure of peace in his final moments. Instead, he was relegated to the desperation of hoping that his final message to Harry would be understood.
Wormtail's death, on the other hand, seemed very appropriate to me. That he should literally die by his own hand was very fitting, in my opinion.
Dobby. Not sure what to say about him... he always seemed to be such a peripheral, character, and yet he died a hero. Nice, and strangely appropriate, I think.
Mad-Eye. Wouldn't have expected anything less of him; and unfortunately, someone had to be the first.
Burage... Muggle Studies teacher.... All I can say about this is our friend Jo has a very dark, twisted and severely disturbed side to her.
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Madam Pince - Jul 22, 2007 10:30 pm (#11 of 127)
The eyes are the windows to the soul...
Wynnleaf, I very much agree with you about Severus' death. I am so sorry that he never got to know that he was finally redeemed in everyone's eyes. And I do think that such a central pivotal character should've at least gotten an "on-camera" funeral and an Order of Merlin First Class laid atop his casket. Harry & Ginny's son having his name was nice, but I thought a bit more would've been appropriate.
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totyle - Jul 22, 2007 10:32 pm (#12 of 127)
I wonder which death that caused JKR (reportedly) to have cried and tell her husband that she's just had to kill someone when she was in the midst of writing the book. I was shocked at Fred's death but I wasnt crying..there just wasnt time as it was so fast paced. And I cried at Hagrid's supposed death but that didnt happen..so i just wonder...was it at Fred/Lupin/Tonks deaths..? Perhaps it was Dobby's...Snape's death wasnt that emotionally wrecking either to me..
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Weeny Owl - Jul 22, 2007 10:48 pm (#13 of 127)
Hedwig and Dobby really got to me.
Mad-Eye, Fred, Lupin, and Tonks didn't at first because of all that was happening at the time. Now they've made me cry when I think of what they'll miss, but at the time too much was going on.
Snape totally got to me. I so wanted him to live, be vindicated, be the Deputy Headmaster to McG's Headmistress, and have a decent relationship with Harry. I never thought they'd be friends, but I did think they would come to a mutual respect.
While I'm not that bloodthirsty, I was disappointed that Lucius Malfoy lived. Granted, he was a shell of his former self, but after all he'd done, I just wanted him gone.
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Madam Pince - Jul 22, 2007 10:51 pm (#14 of 127)
The eyes are the windows to the soul...
And what about Umbridge? She certainly didn't get what she deserved, either, I'm thinking...
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 22, 2007 10:52 pm (#15 of 127)
Of the deaths I that I was most torn up over Tonks, Lupin, Fred and Snape.
Moody's death and that of Scrimgeour were expected.
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Weeny Owl - Jul 22, 2007 10:55 pm (#16 of 127)
Yes, Madam Pince, I so wanted to see Umbridge get what was coming to her.
JKR definitely needs to write another book about the aftermath of Deathly Hallows.
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Remi - Jul 23, 2007 3:59 am (#17 of 127)
Dumbledore's woman through and through
Hedwig death & the loss of the Firebolt (I know, it's not really a death) really got to me. Probably because they came so early, were unexpected, and in Hedwig's case, she was angry with Harry so it wasn't "good timing".
Though this wasn't technically a death, since he'll never see them again I'm reacating to it as such, Petunia leaving without saying good-bye - and Harry not saying "thank you for taking me in and saving my life" - got to me big time.
Dobby's death overwhelmed me. I didn't expect my response to be such. He wasn't a favorite of mine, yet I couldn't stop crying....
I too wish there was more to Tonks & Lupin's death (boy, I didn't want him to die, but you're right, Puck - the Marauders had to be united). I didn't cry for them - am still in shock. It's like in real life - I need to go to the wake & see the bodies myself.
I too agree with Wynnleaf about Snape. I knew he would die, but I wanted him to die a "hero's death" though he is very much a hero nevertheless.
The "Prince's Tale" chapter caused the most tears. I have read & re-read that chapter so many times my book automatically opens to it.
By the way, Soulsearch - I don't think Snape reconciled with Harry when he says, "Look ...at ... me." I think he just wanted to die looking at Lily's eyes. *a Hagrid-sized hankie is pulled out as I wipe my already puffy-eyes*
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sstabeler - Jul 23, 2007 5:14 am (#18 of 127)
As for Umbridge, I doubt she would keep her job long after such persecution of Muggle-Borns.
The saddest moment for me was Fred's death. crushed by a wall....
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Soul Search - Jul 23, 2007 6:18 am (#19 of 127)
Remi,
By the way, Soulsearch - I don't think Snape reconciled with Harry when he says, "Look ...at ... me." I think he just wanted to die looking at Lily's eyes.
I agree.
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Vox Gerbilis - Jul 23, 2007 8:45 am (#20 of 127)
Dobby's death was the most moving for me, probably because the others all happened in the heat of battle. Besides, I've always liked Dobby.
Not a death, but I was moved to tears by Ron's reconciliation with Harry, especially when Harry assured him that he loved Hermione like a sister. There's always been that underlying tension and envy in their friendship, so it was heartwarming to see it finally resolved.
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The giant squid - Jul 23, 2007 9:02 am (#21 of 127)
JKR definitely needs to write another book about the aftermath of Deathly Hallows.--Weeny Owl
This, I think, is my biggest complaint about DH. There's no wind-down after the intense moments of the final battle. The epilogue takes place too far ahead in time, where it would be odd to comment on things like the disposal of Snape's body, who killed Lupin & Tonks (and what happened to their killers), that sort of thing. A "one year later" blurb would have worked better, I think, or one mor chapter of aftermath and then the epilogue. I think we all would have been able to live with another 15 or so pages...
--Mike
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azi - Jul 23, 2007 10:49 am (#22 of 127)
Photo borrowed from Ardent Photography
The worst deaths for me were Lupin and Tonks. They were two of my favourite characters and I read a lot of fanfiction with them in. I would have liked more detail as to how it happened, but Harry can't be there everytime that people he cares about die. It would be unrealistic for him to see every death that mattered to him.
The other deaths I read with no emotion. I expected a lot of deaths and so was prepared for it. Even Lupin/Tonks merely made me do a double read to check it had happened. A few hours later it hit me.
A agree that the death in the first chapter was perhaps the most horrible. It had a shock-factor.
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Madame Pomfrey - Jul 23, 2007 10:51 am (#23 of 127)
I agree,Mike! I think(I hope) that there is such a big,18 year gap,in the epilogue is so there can be room to write about the aftermath and Harry's life as an auror.
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Madam Pince - Jul 23, 2007 11:04 am (#24 of 127)
The eyes are the windows to the soul...
I wish JKR had put just a little bit more into Snape's death scene other than just "...the green eyes found the black..." -- something like the black eyes softening or sparkling a tiny bit just before the light died within them... something soppy like that...
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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 23, 2007 12:37 pm (#25 of 127)
When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
None of the deaths really bothered me at all. It was the interactions amongst the living that effected me the most emotionally. But as for the deaths:
Hedwig- It was shocking more than anything because it happened so suddenly. I always felt like Harry took Hedwig for granted. So I was unconcerned with how Harry felt about it. He lost his errand-runner, not a friend.
Dobby- Dobby went out how he wanted to go out. I gurantee he would have gladly traded his life for Harry's if given the choice. Harry burying him by hand was a nice touch.
Fred- So 6 people get hit with the same explosion, 5 come out unscathed and Fred is dead. Huh? What exactly did Fred die from? Why did the other come out perfectly ok?
Mad-eye, Tonks, Lupin - It makes sense that some deaths had to occur off-camera so to speak. The vast majority of the books except a few odd first chapters are Harry point-of-view. Harry cannot see everyone die.
Snape- I was very disappointed in this death. It was not nearly painful enough, not nearly humiliating enough. I think he should have been hung upside down naked with Levicorpus and than be flayed slowly by sectumsempra while Lilly's ghost tells him she never loved him and hates his guts. The fact that Snape loved Lilly does not make him noble and heroic. It makes him a hyporcrite. He agrees with Voldemort, he is just mad that Voldemort killed Lilly. He thinks all muggles and muggle-born are scum, and only Lilly is the exception. He doesn't care if innocent people die. Had Harry's mom been anyone besides her, Snape would have gladly helped Voldemort kill the lot and been an evil deatheater to this day. He does everything he can to keep Harry alive, but he also takes every chance he can get to make Harry's life miserable. He is cruel to Neville and Hermione and any non-Slytherin student for the sheer pleasure of it. Snape did not deserve redemption because even as he died, he still only cared about one person, not doing what was right.
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Puck - Jul 23, 2007 1:28 pm (#26 of 127)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Wandless Wizard, feel free to express yourself.
(Oh, Snape did tell Phineas not to call Hermione a mudblood. That's something.) As SLughorn told us "Never underestimate the power of obcessive love."
The others were hurt in the explosion. Harry's head was bleeding, and I'm sure the others had injuries as well. Fred just caught the worst of it.
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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 23, 2007 1:45 pm (#27 of 127)
When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
Puck, you are right that Harry was bleeding. I missed that when reading it. Still, it strikes me as odd that they were all standing really close together, yet Fred dies instantly and the rest are able to run away and keep fighting. If Fred was seriously injured and dying, I could have accepted it. If something fell on Fred or he had some visible injury from the blast, I could have accepted it. If he was knocked into something sharp or out of the building, it would have made sense. But it seems the concussive force from the blast alone killed him and only dazed/cut the rest when they were standing really close to each other.
That still strikes me as strange. Maybe he was injured in some way and we just weren't told about it. Still, the the death struck me as fake, as something someone wrote to kill off a character in a shocking way. Which is what it was, but JKR has the talent to write it so we don't realize that. It is a mild complaint, but it took me out of the moment of the death.
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zelmia - Jul 23, 2007 1:48 pm (#28 of 127)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Yeah, I sort of imagined Fred was kind of right next to the wall while everyone else was far enough away - or was blasted farther away, as was Harry - that they only sustained injuries.
The repercussion from a blast like that can indeed kill someone who is inside the blast wave. It is an extremely powerful physical force upon the delicate human body.
What about that Crabbe, eh? A truly horrific way to die, but he was unfortunately a complete dolt right to the end. What's the old saying about "playing with fire"?
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Mare - Jul 23, 2007 2:01 pm (#29 of 127)
Maybe Fred got hit with the something that caused the wall to blast in the first place?
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Veritaserum - Jul 23, 2007 4:52 pm (#30 of 127)
Go Jays!
That's kind of what I thought about Fred, Mare.
Also, Weeny Owl and Mike, I agree with you, I would have liked to see some more denouement, as it were, but I think JKR's intention was to leave it up to our imaginations.
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totyle - Jul 23, 2007 8:22 pm (#31 of 127)
Vox Gerbilis...that moment where Harry says he loves Hr as a sister and she him..wasnt that just so Star Wars-Princess Leia/Luke Skywalker/Hans Solo..I LOVED THAT! Thats when real Ron came back for me...!
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Madam Pince - Jul 23, 2007 9:20 pm (#32 of 127)
The eyes are the windows to the soul...
What's the old saying about "playing with fire"?
I always heard "Don't play with fire or you'll wet the bed at night," but I bet that's not the one you're searching for...
Wandless Wizard, I agree that I was disappointed in Snape's death, but in the opposite way from you, I fear. I wanted some more emotion from Harry when he found out that Snape had really been trying to protect him all along. What makes you say he thinks all muggles and muggle-born are scum? I don't see that. As Puck says, he didn't want Hermione referred to as a "mudblood." No question he projects a "superior" front, but I'm thinking that is a desperate attempt to boost self-esteem after coming from pretty low surroundings. Unfortunately, we do not get to "speak" with Snape before he dies, (this is one of the most regrettable things about his death scene, to me) so we don't know how he feels about having to watch innocents die to protect his and Dumbledore's cover, nor who he cares about and who he doesn't. We never do really get to crack his facade, the memories notwithstanding. But someone who can love someone that deeply and that unconditionally must have something good inside them, I can't help but believe that.
"After all this time?"
"Always," said Snape.
***sniff, sniff... trembling lower lip...sniff, sniff...***
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geauxtigers - Jul 23, 2007 10:04 pm (#33 of 127)
Yum!
Fred's death bothered me too. I think its terrible that she broke up the twins...terrible.
Dobby's death was hard to get through too. The funeral was a sob fest for me.
Snape's death was horrible, but I think its good how it is. Snape looking into Harry's eyes so that Lily's eyes were the last thing he saw. It was really sad. After seeing his memories, getting confirmation that he was good, is when I was the saddest. Poor Snape is all you can say. Its all very sad.
Tonks and Lupin dying were really sad too, but they didn't get to like the others. I think I was still in shock to find Harry alive.
Harry's "death" I started bawling when I found out he was a horcrux and didn't stop crying until mid-way through "King's Cross".
Hedwig made me really sad. I mean what was the point of killing Hedwig?
Then I thought Hagrid was dead too, but thankfully I was wrong.
Colin Creevy was really sad too.
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Pamzter - Jul 23, 2007 11:05 pm (#34 of 127)
When they carried in Colin's body and said he had tried to sneak back in to the battle, I could just imagine this scrawny kid with his face all scrunched up with determination plowing his way back to the battle desperately wanting to do his part . . . then . . . *sigh* . . . wonder if he even got the chance to fight or if they just blew him away. *sigh*
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zelmia - Jul 23, 2007 11:06 pm (#35 of 127)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
what was the point of killing Hedwig? - I think that was the point of killing Hedwig, if you take my meaning.
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Esther Rose - Jul 24, 2007 6:47 am (#36 of 127)
In the literary sense, Hedwig had to die. Harry needed to be cut off from both the Wizarding World and the Muggle World. Hedwig was a form of communication. Plus a snowy owl flying around in the woods would have been a dead give away to Harry's location. I didn't expect Hedwig to die. It was sad and so quick.
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Mrs Brisbee - Jul 24, 2007 7:02 am (#37 of 127)
Both Mad-Eye Moody and Hedwig were killed because Snape and Dumbledore betrayed the Order. I can't help but think that those two deaths must be symbolic. Hedwig was Harry's first birthday present after he entered the magical world, and his one friend at Privet Drive during the holidays. Moody was the Orders oldest and most experienced member, and knew Voldemort would likely target him. I doubt he would have expected it to be Dumbledore who sent Voldemort after him, though. For me, that makes his death sad and senseless.
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Madam Pince - Jul 24, 2007 8:49 am (#38 of 127)
The eyes are the windows to the soul...
Sad, definitely, but I wouldn't really call it senseless, except in the sense that war itself is senseless. It was sort of like Dumbledore was a general in a war -- sometimes the general has to send troops into what he knows is a situation they may not come out of alive, and just hope that they are skilled and lucky enough to make it. That's war. It stinks, but there it is. I wouldn't say they "betrayed" the Order, although I can see that a bit -- it was more like they were looking at the bigger picture. (There's that "greater good" thing again...)
Esther Rose, we were talking on another thread about how JKR's deaths are all pretty quick -- she doesn't believe in the long death-bed scenes for sure! I think she's reminding us how death often occurs in the real world, and there's a bit of a lesson there that you should always say the things you want to say while people are still around because you never know when they might not be around...
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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 24, 2007 1:09 pm (#39 of 127)
When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
Madam Pince wrote: "Wandless Wizard,...What makes you say [Snape] thinks all muggles and muggle-born are scum? I don't see that. As Puck says, he didn't want Hermione referred to as a "mudblood."
What Snape actually said in regards to Phineas calling Hermione a Mudblood was "Don't say that word." He did not like the word because it reminded him of the fatal blow to his relationship with Lily. Everytime one of the trio yell at someone for using that word, they say something along the lines of "Don't call her that" because they care about the people, not the word. Snape not wanting to hear the word that ruined his chances with the love of his life is not evidence that he likes muggle-borns.
My evidence that he hates muggle-borns is albeit circumstantial but convincing. First, Lily told us. She gave Snape every chance, ignored his faults and was friends with him. But she was growing increasingly concerned about his behaviour. When he finally called her a mudblood, she felt he was finally letting his true colors show. "But you call everyone of my birth Mudblood, Severus. Why should I be any different?"
My most compelling evidence is that he became a death eater. I don't see many muggle lovers lining up for that gig. He never showed he regreted his choice for any reason other than Lily's death. Even years later he tells Dumbledore he thought they were doing it all for Lily's child. Not for Harry, not to stop Voldemort, not to protect the muggle born and not because it was right, he only changed sides for Lily's child.
"But someone who can love someone that deeply and that unconditionally must have something good inside them, I can't help but believe that."
He might have something good inside of him, but he is not worth idolizing, and it doesn't mean he is should be redeemed. Lucius Malfoy loved Draco. When Draco was in danger, he no longer cared about the war or Voldemort, only about seeing his son safe. Does that make him warm and fluffy? Should Harry have named his son Lucius? What about Aunt Petunia? She loved Dudley unconditionally. Is she redeemed for how she treated Harry because she was kind to Dudley?
For some reason people turn a blind eye to all of Snape's flaws. He did do good things, but he is not a good man. He did good things for selfish reasons. And he did cruel things as well. I'll never forgive how he treated non-Slytherin students. There is no excuse to take delight in making 12 year old kids cry. He did not deserve redemption, Harry's respect, or even the moment of comfort when he looked into Harry's eyes and imagined they were Lily. If he ever did anything good for the right reason, he might have.
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zelmia - Jul 24, 2007 1:28 pm (#40 of 127)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
I'm afraid I agree with Wandless on all of his points about Snape.
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legolas returns - Jul 24, 2007 3:01 pm (#41 of 127)
Just reading peoples posts on this thread sets me off again. I have never in my life read a book that affected me so much.
Dobby-I sobbed my heart out for Dobby when he died. The whole funeral thing and digging a grave. Harry saved him from a terrible life with the Malfoys and saved Harry in return. Such a fitting way to die..
The fact that Lupin (my favourite character after Dumbledore)/Tonks and Mad Eye died off camera just resulted in a small lump in my throat. If Lupins death had been described I would have cried buckets.
Harrys "death"-The whole thing of his self sacrifice and his Parents/Lupin/Sirius conversation and walking to his "death" caused me to bubble endlessly. Saying he was sorry that they had died for him and particularly to Lupin after the birth of his son-that got me particularly after Harry had reminded him of his parenting responsibilities at the start of the book.
Freds death was such a big shock to me. It was good that he died laughing but that did cause the tears as well.
I also was upset when Snape died it seemed such a pointless way to go. I wanted something more torturous and long drawn out. He was not made to suffer. I believe that Snape was a truely horrible person. I do think that he obsessively loved Lily as much as he loved the dark arts. He was not willing to choose her over the dark arts. I think that his reasons for going to Dumbledore were wrong. He was prepared to have Harry/James murdered so that he could have Lily. People are not objects that you possess. He only wanted Lily to live. He also demands that nobody should ever know that he is protecting Harry because of Lily especially as the boy is "Potters son". Dumbledore passes off the fact that Snape Saves Harry due to him feeling a bedt to James. In Snapes favour he is loyal to Dumbledore and does what he asks (sometimes grudgingly) even though he is not given all the information/some of the things are "for greater good"/he constantly risks his life-shows great courage. The bit I find interesting is when he reacts to what Dumbledore tells him about the accidental horcrux and the fact that Harry has to die. I think that it is genuine shock that Dumbledore would send Harry to his death but I can understand why he feels used because he has been fufilling his side of the bargin e.g doing it for Lily/not been told about Harrys quest. I dont think he would ever think anything of Harry but his obsessive love carried him through. In summary I think he deserves some redemption-He made many wrong choices, did things for the wrong reason but at the same time was loyal(though sometimes he protested)/unbelievably couragous/put his life on the line.
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Madam Pince - Jul 24, 2007 9:45 pm (#42 of 127)
The eyes are the windows to the soul...
It doesn't make Lucius warm and fluffy, nor Aunt Petunia either, but I think it does say at least something about them as a human being that they can care for their families so much. True, they're not going to win any humanitarian awards, but they're not pure evil like Voldemort. And it seems like some people (not picking on anyone in particular here) seem to want to put Snape in that pure-evil category too.
I suppose I admit I turn something of a blind eye to Snape's flaws -- I recognize the ones I can't explain, but I still want to try to explain them, and that's very uncharacteristic of me. I usually don't do that. The only thing I can think of to blame it on is JKR's writing ability -- she has written a fascinatingly ambiguous character in Severus Snape.
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Luna Logic - Jul 25, 2007 2:12 am (#43 of 127)
from the other side (of the Channel)
Edited by Jul 25, 2007 2:12 am
Concerning the couples or the families, I cannot help myself from thinking that JKR made survive those which care more for their family than for the fight(Bill and Fleur, the Malfoy, the Dursleys, Arthur and Molly) - and that she means the others to die : as if she condemned the choice of Lupin and Tonks to take part in the fight…
Even Ted Tonks is dead... The family of Andromeda is devastated...
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Ida-ho-Potato - Jul 25, 2007 6:13 am (#44 of 127)
The Holloween Hag/Witch
As far as Snape dieing with no one knowing the truth, that is not so. He showed Harry all those memories. Don't you think he knew that Harry would have revealed a lot of those after the battle was over to prove Snape in the end was working for the good, not for Voldemort. He knew that even though he would not be there to receive the rewards, that they would come. At least he was not so arrogant to want self grattifaction in life. He was okay to receive it in Death. Snape was not evil. He was not pretty as a rose either. But you know, we all have something that we do that is wrong and take delight in it. We know it's wrong but can not help ourselves. Doesn't matter if it was only in thought or actions. Does that make us evil. NO. Just goes to say that not everyone is perfect.
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Mrs Brisbee - Jul 25, 2007 6:17 am (#45 of 127)
I thought Snape thought he would be sending Harry off to certain death with those memories. I don't think Snape would have thought Harry would have the time to repair Snape's reputation before going off to die himself.
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Ida-ho-Potato - Jul 25, 2007 6:24 am (#46 of 127)
The Holloween Hag/Witch
Even if Harry had died the memories were still sitting in the pensieve in Dumbledores office. Somebody would have found them. He also knew that Ron and Hermione was with him. They would have made sure to find them and see what they had told.
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Madam Pince - Jul 25, 2007 7:29 am (#47 of 127)
The eyes are the windows to the soul...
But Snape died not knowing whether Harry was even going to look at the memories in the flask Hermione conjured. For all he knew, (and certainly might expect, as he thought Harry despised him) Harry was going to just pour the silvery stuff out on the ground. He died not being sure that even Harry really knew, let alone anyone else. I'm not even sure that he was aware Harry caught the memories in the flask -- he was dying, after all.
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Mrs Brisbee - Jul 25, 2007 7:52 am (#48 of 127)
Ida-ho-Potato, I think I understand what you mean by Snape's need for vindication and recognition. Prior to DH coming out, I mused on the subject here. He did seem to have a deep-seeded need, based on his actions in the other books, for someone to look at his actions, pat him on the back, and say, "Well done!" And he would get very frustrated (to put it mildly) when his plans went wrong. I think he desperately wanted someone to tell him he had paid for his past crimes, and was now off the hook and didn't have to worry about it anymore. But there never was a time that he was off the hook, because the consequences of his actions had snowballed to the point that there was no straightforward way to repair the damage he had done.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jul 25, 2007 9:42 am (#49 of 127)
I hated the epilogue because it was too jarring to go from the battle and the deaths to an epilogue where we didn't get to hear what happened to all of the survivors, and how any of them coped.
I thought Hedwig's death was kind of pointless, as well as Colin's. Moody's less so. Fred's was awfully hard on me. I didn't want the twins split up. I wanted either both of them to go, or neither. I wish Harry had stopped and stood with the family a little during that scene where they were mourning Fred. I think he could have spared a moment.
Snape wanted to die looking into Lily's eyes. I don't think the fact that they were in Harry's face meant a rat's patootie to him.. I'm convinced of it. I just wish the whole hyped thing about her eyes had been a bit more substantial. I was let down by that. After all of the wonderful theories the fans had about how her eyes would be important, the reality of it wasn't worth it to me.
Remus and Tonks whole relationship was pointless to me in lieu of their deaths, and I had previously loved the idea of the ship. All it did was make Andromeda the next generation's Gran Longbottom. I loved the IDEA of R/T, but the reality of that one horrified me.
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Joanne Reid - Jul 25, 2007 10:39 am (#50 of 127)
Hi,
Dobby's death brought me to tears. Then, when Harry dug the grave and buried his faithful elf, I sobbed. But, the epitaph was the worst for me. I used half a box of tissues.
As for the others, I knew this was going to be bloody, and it was. Fred, Remus, Tonks, Colin ... all of them.
I cheered when Nagini killed Snape. He had earned a more prolonged and horrific death. But, it was good enough.
Finally, I was satisfied with the epilogue. They all survived and are doing well.
Wow. 1st post.
What was the worst death for everyone in DH?
I was crushed by Fred. Poor George. Percy completely redeemed himself for me by showing how much he cared for Fred. He couldn't even hardly pull himself away from his brothers body. That was the worst for me.
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TomProffitt - Jul 22, 2007 5:15 pm (#2 of 127)
Bullheaded empiricist
When Jo mentioned how she cried as she finished writing I was convinced that a character close to her and the readers would die. My first thought was for Hagrid, but I really feared for everyone.
While there were many deaths, most were peripheral characters and not main characters like the six who fought in the Ministry in OP. I was actually relieved that Fred, Lupin, and Tonks were the "worst" of it. I was expecting Harry and Ginny and Molly to all die.
Well, I guess I was afraid for all of the characters, but I expected Ron & Hermione to live.
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The giant squid - Jul 22, 2007 5:25 pm (#3 of 127)
I guess Fred hit me the hardest, just because it seems so wrong to break up the twins.
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Soul Search - Jul 22, 2007 5:37 pm (#4 of 127)
I was surprised (or something) that Bellatrix's death came at Molly's wand. Molly fought fiercely ... and triumphed. Mother cat protecting her kittens sort of thing.
Bellatrix is one of the few Death Eaters that we see actually die, at least up until the centuars etal join the fray.
I guess Neville couldn't deal with Bellatrix because she had to die, and Neville's soul was too pure for him to do it.
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Soul Search - Jul 22, 2007 5:46 pm (#5 of 127)
If Snape had to die, I would have wished for something more noble than being bitten by Nagini, and for a reason that was wrong.
I suppose I can say that Harry and Snape were finally reconciled. Snape gave Harry the memory and then asked Harry to "Look ... at ... me ..."
Harry gave his second son "Severus" for a middle name and told him "you were named for two headmasters of Hogwarts. One of them was a Slytherin and he was probably the bravest man I ever knew." That son had Lily's eyes.
I guess I can accept that.
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CatBailey - Jul 22, 2007 6:37 pm (#6 of 127)
Hedwig and Dobby both hit me really hard because I didn't expect them to die - both being relatively defenseless against wizards (or at least, in Dobby's case, not permitted to carry a wand, and not prone to attacking wizards.)
Charity Burbage, we hardly knew you - but I thought that was one of the creepiest chapters in the whole series. And I was horrified when I realized that the only reason she'd been suspended above that table, waiting for death and hoping against hope that help would arrive somehow, was because she taught Muggle studies and advocated better Muggle - Wizard relations.
I was sad to see Mad-Eye go so soon, but relieved it wasn't Hagrid (that early in the book, anyway - I really didn't expect Hagrid to live), but Tonks' line "You-Know-Who acted exactly as Mad-Eye expected him to...he'd expect the real Harry to be with the toughest, most skilled Aurors. He chased Mad-Eye first..." helped me get over it pretty quickly - he had to have expected that if they were ambushed, he would probably be in the most danger, and he'd have wanted to go down fighting.
I've been performing in a play the past couple of weeks, and since I wasn't finished before I had to go to the theatre, I took it with me. Fred died right before the show started, and in the random spots of free time I had during the show, I also read about Lupin, Tonks, and Snape's deaths - Lupin and Snape I expected to go, but not the way they went (especially Lupin and Tonks "offstage" deaths.) I had to touch-up my eye makeup very frequently with all the crying I was doing.
And Colin Creevey made me very sad, too - he could be annoying at times, but such a sweet, brave kid.
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wynnleaf - Jul 22, 2007 6:41 pm (#7 of 127)
I felt all of the earlier deaths were well done. Dobby's death and burial was very moving as well as truly helping to drive the plot and Harry's character development.
I felt Lupin and Tonk's deaths were poorly done. For such an important character I was shocked that we simply discovered Lupin was dead along with Tonks. So much could have been made of their deaths and wasn't.
Snape's death was particularly sad because he died still thinking that no one living knew his loyalty and the intent behind his actions. He was still being called a coward by people he'd worked with in the Order and at Hogwarts. And he died with no assurance that Harry would even look at the memories. And last, because Lily had never forgiven him, I had this feeling that he died with no one to go to after death. Unlike Harry's parents, the Marauders, and even Albus, I just didn't feel like anyone was waiting for Snape. Maybe Albus, but their relationship was a little harder to consider warm after DH. And then Snape's death turned out to be almost meaningless in that it didn't gain LV anything, and didn't really gain Harry anything either, other than to provide an opportunity for Snape to pass along his memories.
Oh, and last, we saw nothing of anything being done about Snape's body as we did with the other heroes of the war. Last we were told, he was just left in the Shrieking Shack.
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Veritaserum - Jul 22, 2007 8:43 pm (#8 of 127)
Go Jays!
Fred's, Tonks, and Lupin's deaths really got to me. I see what you mean, about it being rather glossed over, but still, I think it was just as wrenching that they were both dead, just like that.
I'm very relieved that that was the worst of it as well. On the way in to the bookstore, someone had "Hermione dies" written on their car, and I did not know if this was just a prediction or a spoiler, so I was on edge every time any Death Eaters or Voldemort were around. It was very tense on that count, having to expect a "bloodbath." But as people have mentioned on the "questions not answered," I would like to know who the other 50 were.
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Puck - Jul 22, 2007 8:52 pm (#9 of 127)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Hedwig's death shocked me, being so sudden and unexpected.
I had expected to lose a twin, so sad as it was, I was braced for it.
For some reason, it was Dobby's that had me sobbing.
I guess all the Marauders had to be reunited in the end.
I expected Moody to pop up as an inferi, but was glad that he didn't.
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zelmia - Jul 22, 2007 10:19 pm (#10 of 127)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
With the number of Wealseys involved, we had to know that at least one of them wasn't going to make it. I was shocked that it was Fred (I had always believed it would be Ron, actually), and deeply moved by the way Percy was so overcome with grief. Still, I think we can take comfort in the fact that Fred's last words were to congratulate Percy on his sense of humour (a trait Fred valued above nearly all else), and that he was laughing and seemed to be enjoying himself.
Lupin's death was not surpising to me. All of his friends had gone on ahead of him, after all. Tonks, was a bit surprising. I had thought that since she and Lupin had a baby that she would stick around to raise him. However, I don't think we really needed to "see" their deaths to feel the loss of them.
Snape's death was not a surprise to me, but the manner was definitely unexpected. I agree with you, Wynnleaf, that after the dangerous life he chose for himself, he deserved at least some measure of peace in his final moments. Instead, he was relegated to the desperation of hoping that his final message to Harry would be understood.
Wormtail's death, on the other hand, seemed very appropriate to me. That he should literally die by his own hand was very fitting, in my opinion.
Dobby. Not sure what to say about him... he always seemed to be such a peripheral, character, and yet he died a hero. Nice, and strangely appropriate, I think.
Mad-Eye. Wouldn't have expected anything less of him; and unfortunately, someone had to be the first.
Burage... Muggle Studies teacher.... All I can say about this is our friend Jo has a very dark, twisted and severely disturbed side to her.
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Madam Pince - Jul 22, 2007 10:30 pm (#11 of 127)
The eyes are the windows to the soul...
Wynnleaf, I very much agree with you about Severus' death. I am so sorry that he never got to know that he was finally redeemed in everyone's eyes. And I do think that such a central pivotal character should've at least gotten an "on-camera" funeral and an Order of Merlin First Class laid atop his casket. Harry & Ginny's son having his name was nice, but I thought a bit more would've been appropriate.
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totyle - Jul 22, 2007 10:32 pm (#12 of 127)
I wonder which death that caused JKR (reportedly) to have cried and tell her husband that she's just had to kill someone when she was in the midst of writing the book. I was shocked at Fred's death but I wasnt crying..there just wasnt time as it was so fast paced. And I cried at Hagrid's supposed death but that didnt happen..so i just wonder...was it at Fred/Lupin/Tonks deaths..? Perhaps it was Dobby's...Snape's death wasnt that emotionally wrecking either to me..
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Weeny Owl - Jul 22, 2007 10:48 pm (#13 of 127)
Hedwig and Dobby really got to me.
Mad-Eye, Fred, Lupin, and Tonks didn't at first because of all that was happening at the time. Now they've made me cry when I think of what they'll miss, but at the time too much was going on.
Snape totally got to me. I so wanted him to live, be vindicated, be the Deputy Headmaster to McG's Headmistress, and have a decent relationship with Harry. I never thought they'd be friends, but I did think they would come to a mutual respect.
While I'm not that bloodthirsty, I was disappointed that Lucius Malfoy lived. Granted, he was a shell of his former self, but after all he'd done, I just wanted him gone.
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Madam Pince - Jul 22, 2007 10:51 pm (#14 of 127)
The eyes are the windows to the soul...
And what about Umbridge? She certainly didn't get what she deserved, either, I'm thinking...
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 22, 2007 10:52 pm (#15 of 127)
Of the deaths I that I was most torn up over Tonks, Lupin, Fred and Snape.
Moody's death and that of Scrimgeour were expected.
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Weeny Owl - Jul 22, 2007 10:55 pm (#16 of 127)
Yes, Madam Pince, I so wanted to see Umbridge get what was coming to her.
JKR definitely needs to write another book about the aftermath of Deathly Hallows.
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Remi - Jul 23, 2007 3:59 am (#17 of 127)
Dumbledore's woman through and through
Hedwig death & the loss of the Firebolt (I know, it's not really a death) really got to me. Probably because they came so early, were unexpected, and in Hedwig's case, she was angry with Harry so it wasn't "good timing".
Though this wasn't technically a death, since he'll never see them again I'm reacating to it as such, Petunia leaving without saying good-bye - and Harry not saying "thank you for taking me in and saving my life" - got to me big time.
Dobby's death overwhelmed me. I didn't expect my response to be such. He wasn't a favorite of mine, yet I couldn't stop crying....
I too wish there was more to Tonks & Lupin's death (boy, I didn't want him to die, but you're right, Puck - the Marauders had to be united). I didn't cry for them - am still in shock. It's like in real life - I need to go to the wake & see the bodies myself.
I too agree with Wynnleaf about Snape. I knew he would die, but I wanted him to die a "hero's death" though he is very much a hero nevertheless.
The "Prince's Tale" chapter caused the most tears. I have read & re-read that chapter so many times my book automatically opens to it.
By the way, Soulsearch - I don't think Snape reconciled with Harry when he says, "Look ...at ... me." I think he just wanted to die looking at Lily's eyes. *a Hagrid-sized hankie is pulled out as I wipe my already puffy-eyes*
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sstabeler - Jul 23, 2007 5:14 am (#18 of 127)
As for Umbridge, I doubt she would keep her job long after such persecution of Muggle-Borns.
The saddest moment for me was Fred's death. crushed by a wall....
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Soul Search - Jul 23, 2007 6:18 am (#19 of 127)
Remi,
By the way, Soulsearch - I don't think Snape reconciled with Harry when he says, "Look ...at ... me." I think he just wanted to die looking at Lily's eyes.
I agree.
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Vox Gerbilis - Jul 23, 2007 8:45 am (#20 of 127)
Dobby's death was the most moving for me, probably because the others all happened in the heat of battle. Besides, I've always liked Dobby.
Not a death, but I was moved to tears by Ron's reconciliation with Harry, especially when Harry assured him that he loved Hermione like a sister. There's always been that underlying tension and envy in their friendship, so it was heartwarming to see it finally resolved.
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The giant squid - Jul 23, 2007 9:02 am (#21 of 127)
JKR definitely needs to write another book about the aftermath of Deathly Hallows.--Weeny Owl
This, I think, is my biggest complaint about DH. There's no wind-down after the intense moments of the final battle. The epilogue takes place too far ahead in time, where it would be odd to comment on things like the disposal of Snape's body, who killed Lupin & Tonks (and what happened to their killers), that sort of thing. A "one year later" blurb would have worked better, I think, or one mor chapter of aftermath and then the epilogue. I think we all would have been able to live with another 15 or so pages...
--Mike
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azi - Jul 23, 2007 10:49 am (#22 of 127)
Photo borrowed from Ardent Photography
The worst deaths for me were Lupin and Tonks. They were two of my favourite characters and I read a lot of fanfiction with them in. I would have liked more detail as to how it happened, but Harry can't be there everytime that people he cares about die. It would be unrealistic for him to see every death that mattered to him.
The other deaths I read with no emotion. I expected a lot of deaths and so was prepared for it. Even Lupin/Tonks merely made me do a double read to check it had happened. A few hours later it hit me.
A agree that the death in the first chapter was perhaps the most horrible. It had a shock-factor.
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Madame Pomfrey - Jul 23, 2007 10:51 am (#23 of 127)
I agree,Mike! I think(I hope) that there is such a big,18 year gap,in the epilogue is so there can be room to write about the aftermath and Harry's life as an auror.
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Madam Pince - Jul 23, 2007 11:04 am (#24 of 127)
The eyes are the windows to the soul...
I wish JKR had put just a little bit more into Snape's death scene other than just "...the green eyes found the black..." -- something like the black eyes softening or sparkling a tiny bit just before the light died within them... something soppy like that...
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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 23, 2007 12:37 pm (#25 of 127)
When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
None of the deaths really bothered me at all. It was the interactions amongst the living that effected me the most emotionally. But as for the deaths:
Hedwig- It was shocking more than anything because it happened so suddenly. I always felt like Harry took Hedwig for granted. So I was unconcerned with how Harry felt about it. He lost his errand-runner, not a friend.
Dobby- Dobby went out how he wanted to go out. I gurantee he would have gladly traded his life for Harry's if given the choice. Harry burying him by hand was a nice touch.
Fred- So 6 people get hit with the same explosion, 5 come out unscathed and Fred is dead. Huh? What exactly did Fred die from? Why did the other come out perfectly ok?
Mad-eye, Tonks, Lupin - It makes sense that some deaths had to occur off-camera so to speak. The vast majority of the books except a few odd first chapters are Harry point-of-view. Harry cannot see everyone die.
Snape- I was very disappointed in this death. It was not nearly painful enough, not nearly humiliating enough. I think he should have been hung upside down naked with Levicorpus and than be flayed slowly by sectumsempra while Lilly's ghost tells him she never loved him and hates his guts. The fact that Snape loved Lilly does not make him noble and heroic. It makes him a hyporcrite. He agrees with Voldemort, he is just mad that Voldemort killed Lilly. He thinks all muggles and muggle-born are scum, and only Lilly is the exception. He doesn't care if innocent people die. Had Harry's mom been anyone besides her, Snape would have gladly helped Voldemort kill the lot and been an evil deatheater to this day. He does everything he can to keep Harry alive, but he also takes every chance he can get to make Harry's life miserable. He is cruel to Neville and Hermione and any non-Slytherin student for the sheer pleasure of it. Snape did not deserve redemption because even as he died, he still only cared about one person, not doing what was right.
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Puck - Jul 23, 2007 1:28 pm (#26 of 127)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Wandless Wizard, feel free to express yourself.
(Oh, Snape did tell Phineas not to call Hermione a mudblood. That's something.) As SLughorn told us "Never underestimate the power of obcessive love."
The others were hurt in the explosion. Harry's head was bleeding, and I'm sure the others had injuries as well. Fred just caught the worst of it.
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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 23, 2007 1:45 pm (#27 of 127)
When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
Puck, you are right that Harry was bleeding. I missed that when reading it. Still, it strikes me as odd that they were all standing really close together, yet Fred dies instantly and the rest are able to run away and keep fighting. If Fred was seriously injured and dying, I could have accepted it. If something fell on Fred or he had some visible injury from the blast, I could have accepted it. If he was knocked into something sharp or out of the building, it would have made sense. But it seems the concussive force from the blast alone killed him and only dazed/cut the rest when they were standing really close to each other.
That still strikes me as strange. Maybe he was injured in some way and we just weren't told about it. Still, the the death struck me as fake, as something someone wrote to kill off a character in a shocking way. Which is what it was, but JKR has the talent to write it so we don't realize that. It is a mild complaint, but it took me out of the moment of the death.
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zelmia - Jul 23, 2007 1:48 pm (#28 of 127)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Yeah, I sort of imagined Fred was kind of right next to the wall while everyone else was far enough away - or was blasted farther away, as was Harry - that they only sustained injuries.
The repercussion from a blast like that can indeed kill someone who is inside the blast wave. It is an extremely powerful physical force upon the delicate human body.
What about that Crabbe, eh? A truly horrific way to die, but he was unfortunately a complete dolt right to the end. What's the old saying about "playing with fire"?
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Mare - Jul 23, 2007 2:01 pm (#29 of 127)
Maybe Fred got hit with the something that caused the wall to blast in the first place?
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Veritaserum - Jul 23, 2007 4:52 pm (#30 of 127)
Go Jays!
That's kind of what I thought about Fred, Mare.
Also, Weeny Owl and Mike, I agree with you, I would have liked to see some more denouement, as it were, but I think JKR's intention was to leave it up to our imaginations.
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totyle - Jul 23, 2007 8:22 pm (#31 of 127)
Vox Gerbilis...that moment where Harry says he loves Hr as a sister and she him..wasnt that just so Star Wars-Princess Leia/Luke Skywalker/Hans Solo..I LOVED THAT! Thats when real Ron came back for me...!
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Madam Pince - Jul 23, 2007 9:20 pm (#32 of 127)
The eyes are the windows to the soul...
What's the old saying about "playing with fire"?
I always heard "Don't play with fire or you'll wet the bed at night," but I bet that's not the one you're searching for...
Wandless Wizard, I agree that I was disappointed in Snape's death, but in the opposite way from you, I fear. I wanted some more emotion from Harry when he found out that Snape had really been trying to protect him all along. What makes you say he thinks all muggles and muggle-born are scum? I don't see that. As Puck says, he didn't want Hermione referred to as a "mudblood." No question he projects a "superior" front, but I'm thinking that is a desperate attempt to boost self-esteem after coming from pretty low surroundings. Unfortunately, we do not get to "speak" with Snape before he dies, (this is one of the most regrettable things about his death scene, to me) so we don't know how he feels about having to watch innocents die to protect his and Dumbledore's cover, nor who he cares about and who he doesn't. We never do really get to crack his facade, the memories notwithstanding. But someone who can love someone that deeply and that unconditionally must have something good inside them, I can't help but believe that.
"After all this time?"
"Always," said Snape.
***sniff, sniff... trembling lower lip...sniff, sniff...***
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geauxtigers - Jul 23, 2007 10:04 pm (#33 of 127)
Yum!
Fred's death bothered me too. I think its terrible that she broke up the twins...terrible.
Dobby's death was hard to get through too. The funeral was a sob fest for me.
Snape's death was horrible, but I think its good how it is. Snape looking into Harry's eyes so that Lily's eyes were the last thing he saw. It was really sad. After seeing his memories, getting confirmation that he was good, is when I was the saddest. Poor Snape is all you can say. Its all very sad.
Tonks and Lupin dying were really sad too, but they didn't get to like the others. I think I was still in shock to find Harry alive.
Harry's "death" I started bawling when I found out he was a horcrux and didn't stop crying until mid-way through "King's Cross".
Hedwig made me really sad. I mean what was the point of killing Hedwig?
Then I thought Hagrid was dead too, but thankfully I was wrong.
Colin Creevy was really sad too.
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Pamzter - Jul 23, 2007 11:05 pm (#34 of 127)
When they carried in Colin's body and said he had tried to sneak back in to the battle, I could just imagine this scrawny kid with his face all scrunched up with determination plowing his way back to the battle desperately wanting to do his part . . . then . . . *sigh* . . . wonder if he even got the chance to fight or if they just blew him away. *sigh*
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zelmia - Jul 23, 2007 11:06 pm (#35 of 127)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
what was the point of killing Hedwig? - I think that was the point of killing Hedwig, if you take my meaning.
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Esther Rose - Jul 24, 2007 6:47 am (#36 of 127)
In the literary sense, Hedwig had to die. Harry needed to be cut off from both the Wizarding World and the Muggle World. Hedwig was a form of communication. Plus a snowy owl flying around in the woods would have been a dead give away to Harry's location. I didn't expect Hedwig to die. It was sad and so quick.
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Mrs Brisbee - Jul 24, 2007 7:02 am (#37 of 127)
Both Mad-Eye Moody and Hedwig were killed because Snape and Dumbledore betrayed the Order. I can't help but think that those two deaths must be symbolic. Hedwig was Harry's first birthday present after he entered the magical world, and his one friend at Privet Drive during the holidays. Moody was the Orders oldest and most experienced member, and knew Voldemort would likely target him. I doubt he would have expected it to be Dumbledore who sent Voldemort after him, though. For me, that makes his death sad and senseless.
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Madam Pince - Jul 24, 2007 8:49 am (#38 of 127)
The eyes are the windows to the soul...
Sad, definitely, but I wouldn't really call it senseless, except in the sense that war itself is senseless. It was sort of like Dumbledore was a general in a war -- sometimes the general has to send troops into what he knows is a situation they may not come out of alive, and just hope that they are skilled and lucky enough to make it. That's war. It stinks, but there it is. I wouldn't say they "betrayed" the Order, although I can see that a bit -- it was more like they were looking at the bigger picture. (There's that "greater good" thing again...)
Esther Rose, we were talking on another thread about how JKR's deaths are all pretty quick -- she doesn't believe in the long death-bed scenes for sure! I think she's reminding us how death often occurs in the real world, and there's a bit of a lesson there that you should always say the things you want to say while people are still around because you never know when they might not be around...
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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 24, 2007 1:09 pm (#39 of 127)
When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
Madam Pince wrote: "Wandless Wizard,...What makes you say [Snape] thinks all muggles and muggle-born are scum? I don't see that. As Puck says, he didn't want Hermione referred to as a "mudblood."
What Snape actually said in regards to Phineas calling Hermione a Mudblood was "Don't say that word." He did not like the word because it reminded him of the fatal blow to his relationship with Lily. Everytime one of the trio yell at someone for using that word, they say something along the lines of "Don't call her that" because they care about the people, not the word. Snape not wanting to hear the word that ruined his chances with the love of his life is not evidence that he likes muggle-borns.
My evidence that he hates muggle-borns is albeit circumstantial but convincing. First, Lily told us. She gave Snape every chance, ignored his faults and was friends with him. But she was growing increasingly concerned about his behaviour. When he finally called her a mudblood, she felt he was finally letting his true colors show. "But you call everyone of my birth Mudblood, Severus. Why should I be any different?"
My most compelling evidence is that he became a death eater. I don't see many muggle lovers lining up for that gig. He never showed he regreted his choice for any reason other than Lily's death. Even years later he tells Dumbledore he thought they were doing it all for Lily's child. Not for Harry, not to stop Voldemort, not to protect the muggle born and not because it was right, he only changed sides for Lily's child.
"But someone who can love someone that deeply and that unconditionally must have something good inside them, I can't help but believe that."
He might have something good inside of him, but he is not worth idolizing, and it doesn't mean he is should be redeemed. Lucius Malfoy loved Draco. When Draco was in danger, he no longer cared about the war or Voldemort, only about seeing his son safe. Does that make him warm and fluffy? Should Harry have named his son Lucius? What about Aunt Petunia? She loved Dudley unconditionally. Is she redeemed for how she treated Harry because she was kind to Dudley?
For some reason people turn a blind eye to all of Snape's flaws. He did do good things, but he is not a good man. He did good things for selfish reasons. And he did cruel things as well. I'll never forgive how he treated non-Slytherin students. There is no excuse to take delight in making 12 year old kids cry. He did not deserve redemption, Harry's respect, or even the moment of comfort when he looked into Harry's eyes and imagined they were Lily. If he ever did anything good for the right reason, he might have.
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zelmia - Jul 24, 2007 1:28 pm (#40 of 127)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
I'm afraid I agree with Wandless on all of his points about Snape.
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legolas returns - Jul 24, 2007 3:01 pm (#41 of 127)
Just reading peoples posts on this thread sets me off again. I have never in my life read a book that affected me so much.
Dobby-I sobbed my heart out for Dobby when he died. The whole funeral thing and digging a grave. Harry saved him from a terrible life with the Malfoys and saved Harry in return. Such a fitting way to die..
The fact that Lupin (my favourite character after Dumbledore)/Tonks and Mad Eye died off camera just resulted in a small lump in my throat. If Lupins death had been described I would have cried buckets.
Harrys "death"-The whole thing of his self sacrifice and his Parents/Lupin/Sirius conversation and walking to his "death" caused me to bubble endlessly. Saying he was sorry that they had died for him and particularly to Lupin after the birth of his son-that got me particularly after Harry had reminded him of his parenting responsibilities at the start of the book.
Freds death was such a big shock to me. It was good that he died laughing but that did cause the tears as well.
I also was upset when Snape died it seemed such a pointless way to go. I wanted something more torturous and long drawn out. He was not made to suffer. I believe that Snape was a truely horrible person. I do think that he obsessively loved Lily as much as he loved the dark arts. He was not willing to choose her over the dark arts. I think that his reasons for going to Dumbledore were wrong. He was prepared to have Harry/James murdered so that he could have Lily. People are not objects that you possess. He only wanted Lily to live. He also demands that nobody should ever know that he is protecting Harry because of Lily especially as the boy is "Potters son". Dumbledore passes off the fact that Snape Saves Harry due to him feeling a bedt to James. In Snapes favour he is loyal to Dumbledore and does what he asks (sometimes grudgingly) even though he is not given all the information/some of the things are "for greater good"/he constantly risks his life-shows great courage. The bit I find interesting is when he reacts to what Dumbledore tells him about the accidental horcrux and the fact that Harry has to die. I think that it is genuine shock that Dumbledore would send Harry to his death but I can understand why he feels used because he has been fufilling his side of the bargin e.g doing it for Lily/not been told about Harrys quest. I dont think he would ever think anything of Harry but his obsessive love carried him through. In summary I think he deserves some redemption-He made many wrong choices, did things for the wrong reason but at the same time was loyal(though sometimes he protested)/unbelievably couragous/put his life on the line.
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Madam Pince - Jul 24, 2007 9:45 pm (#42 of 127)
The eyes are the windows to the soul...
It doesn't make Lucius warm and fluffy, nor Aunt Petunia either, but I think it does say at least something about them as a human being that they can care for their families so much. True, they're not going to win any humanitarian awards, but they're not pure evil like Voldemort. And it seems like some people (not picking on anyone in particular here) seem to want to put Snape in that pure-evil category too.
I suppose I admit I turn something of a blind eye to Snape's flaws -- I recognize the ones I can't explain, but I still want to try to explain them, and that's very uncharacteristic of me. I usually don't do that. The only thing I can think of to blame it on is JKR's writing ability -- she has written a fascinatingly ambiguous character in Severus Snape.
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Luna Logic - Jul 25, 2007 2:12 am (#43 of 127)
from the other side (of the Channel)
Edited by Jul 25, 2007 2:12 am
Concerning the couples or the families, I cannot help myself from thinking that JKR made survive those which care more for their family than for the fight(Bill and Fleur, the Malfoy, the Dursleys, Arthur and Molly) - and that she means the others to die : as if she condemned the choice of Lupin and Tonks to take part in the fight…
Even Ted Tonks is dead... The family of Andromeda is devastated...
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Ida-ho-Potato - Jul 25, 2007 6:13 am (#44 of 127)
The Holloween Hag/Witch
As far as Snape dieing with no one knowing the truth, that is not so. He showed Harry all those memories. Don't you think he knew that Harry would have revealed a lot of those after the battle was over to prove Snape in the end was working for the good, not for Voldemort. He knew that even though he would not be there to receive the rewards, that they would come. At least he was not so arrogant to want self grattifaction in life. He was okay to receive it in Death. Snape was not evil. He was not pretty as a rose either. But you know, we all have something that we do that is wrong and take delight in it. We know it's wrong but can not help ourselves. Doesn't matter if it was only in thought or actions. Does that make us evil. NO. Just goes to say that not everyone is perfect.
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Mrs Brisbee - Jul 25, 2007 6:17 am (#45 of 127)
I thought Snape thought he would be sending Harry off to certain death with those memories. I don't think Snape would have thought Harry would have the time to repair Snape's reputation before going off to die himself.
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Ida-ho-Potato - Jul 25, 2007 6:24 am (#46 of 127)
The Holloween Hag/Witch
Even if Harry had died the memories were still sitting in the pensieve in Dumbledores office. Somebody would have found them. He also knew that Ron and Hermione was with him. They would have made sure to find them and see what they had told.
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Madam Pince - Jul 25, 2007 7:29 am (#47 of 127)
The eyes are the windows to the soul...
But Snape died not knowing whether Harry was even going to look at the memories in the flask Hermione conjured. For all he knew, (and certainly might expect, as he thought Harry despised him) Harry was going to just pour the silvery stuff out on the ground. He died not being sure that even Harry really knew, let alone anyone else. I'm not even sure that he was aware Harry caught the memories in the flask -- he was dying, after all.
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Mrs Brisbee - Jul 25, 2007 7:52 am (#48 of 127)
Ida-ho-Potato, I think I understand what you mean by Snape's need for vindication and recognition. Prior to DH coming out, I mused on the subject here. He did seem to have a deep-seeded need, based on his actions in the other books, for someone to look at his actions, pat him on the back, and say, "Well done!" And he would get very frustrated (to put it mildly) when his plans went wrong. I think he desperately wanted someone to tell him he had paid for his past crimes, and was now off the hook and didn't have to worry about it anymore. But there never was a time that he was off the hook, because the consequences of his actions had snowballed to the point that there was no straightforward way to repair the damage he had done.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jul 25, 2007 9:42 am (#49 of 127)
I hated the epilogue because it was too jarring to go from the battle and the deaths to an epilogue where we didn't get to hear what happened to all of the survivors, and how any of them coped.
I thought Hedwig's death was kind of pointless, as well as Colin's. Moody's less so. Fred's was awfully hard on me. I didn't want the twins split up. I wanted either both of them to go, or neither. I wish Harry had stopped and stood with the family a little during that scene where they were mourning Fred. I think he could have spared a moment.
Snape wanted to die looking into Lily's eyes. I don't think the fact that they were in Harry's face meant a rat's patootie to him.. I'm convinced of it. I just wish the whole hyped thing about her eyes had been a bit more substantial. I was let down by that. After all of the wonderful theories the fans had about how her eyes would be important, the reality of it wasn't worth it to me.
Remus and Tonks whole relationship was pointless to me in lieu of their deaths, and I had previously loved the idea of the ship. All it did was make Andromeda the next generation's Gran Longbottom. I loved the IDEA of R/T, but the reality of that one horrified me.
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Joanne Reid - Jul 25, 2007 10:39 am (#50 of 127)
Hi,
Dobby's death brought me to tears. Then, when Harry dug the grave and buried his faithful elf, I sobbed. But, the epitaph was the worst for me. I used half a box of tissues.
As for the others, I knew this was going to be bloody, and it was. Fred, Remus, Tonks, Colin ... all of them.
I cheered when Nagini killed Snape. He had earned a more prolonged and horrific death. But, it was good enough.
Finally, I was satisfied with the epilogue. They all survived and are doing well.
Elanor- Hufflepuff Prefect
- Posts : 1440
Join date : 2011-02-19
Age : 51
Location : France
Deaths in Book Seven (Post 51 to 100)
Elanor Sat May 28, 2011 2:42 am
Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 25, 2007 4:18 pm (#51 of 127)
I find I was most saddened by Snape's death, I am glad though that he found a measure of redemption.
Fred's death was also hard on me because, it had a van Gogh like quality to it, in the sense that close relationship between Fred and George reminded me oof the close relationship between Vincent and Theo van Gogh. Although, in the case of Fred and George, it was George who loss his ear while, Fred ultimately liost his life.
Lupin and Tonks death bothered me greatly too because, in effect Teddy has become the (Harry/Neville) of his generation.
Moody's death did not bother me because, he died as he woud have liked, a warrior to the end who died in battle.
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Madam Pince - Jul 25, 2007 7:03 pm (#52 of 127)
The eyes are the windows to the soul...
Oops! Nathan, here I thought you were being funny in an earlier post about the van Gogh brothers -- I thought you were just making an "'ear 'ear" joke! Uncultured swine that I am, I must admit that I don't know much of anything about van Gogh except that he was missing an ear! I apologize for giggling earlier!
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 25, 2007 8:41 pm (#53 of 127)
Madam P. No worries, I should have explained the comparison. It just seemed apt to me because of Fred and George's closeness reminded me of the van Gogh brother because like Fred and George, Vincent and Theo van Gogh were extraordinarily close and it seems apt in the sense that both sets that Theo and George both lost brothers at an early age and were both greatly affected by the loss.
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Mrs Figg - Jul 26, 2007 7:26 am (#54 of 127)
I was not surprised that Lupin died in book 7 all the other mauraders had died (Peter in this book too) and it seemed befitting that he should go with the other mauraders. I was surprised that Tonks died, and was very sad for little Teddy. Knowing Harry was his godfather, I thought he would end up living with him, but I guess Andromeda being his grandmother makes more sense.
I think that Hedwig's death was a reminder of the innocent casualties of war (though not directly involved in the fight she still was caught in the middle). Fred's death was the saddest, I agree with Die Zimtzicke that it should have been neither or both. The comparison to the Van Gogh brothers by Nathan was intersting, I remember from the museum exhibit that Theo died just 6 months after Vincent (grief and syphillis), though they were very disimilar in personality unlike Fred and George. I hope that George did not meet the same fate as Theo, someone has to keep Weasley's Wizarding Wheezes going.
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Puck - Jul 26, 2007 10:40 am (#55 of 127)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
George will honor his twin's memory. I knew we would lose one of them, though sad to be right.
I long ago said Creevy was toast. Again, sad to be right.
Still, I thought it would be worse, with more familiar faces lying in the Great Hall.
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Madam Pince - Jul 26, 2007 11:55 pm (#56 of 127)
The eyes are the windows to the soul...
I was writing a post the other day in answer to Die, but our eckeltricity went out and it got lost.
I think the point of the pointless deaths was actually that they were pointless, if you know what I mean. No matter how justified a war is, there will always be innocent deaths. Robert E. Lee said (paraphrased but close) "It is well that war is so terrible, lest we should grow too fond of it."
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Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 27, 2007 2:39 am (#57 of 127)
At least three of the deaths (Dobbie, Remus, Fred) put paid to the idea that we had that those wished Happy Birthday on JKR's website survived. Oh well, another theory bites the dust.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jul 27, 2007 8:23 am (#58 of 127)
I admit, I never liked that birthday theory. I had actually forgotten about it. I wish we had a thread about theories that we liked that didn't work out. We could say why we liked them and if they played out in any way.
I also hope George "forged" on in memory of Fred. If he did, it would explain why Ginny didn't insist on naming one of her children after him. Maybe George had already done so? I suppose if he had, he would have been on the platform with his kid, too, but one can hope. I really dislike all the kids names in the epilogue.
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Veritaserum - Jul 27, 2007 8:38 am (#59 of 127)
Go Jays!
I'm really hoping Ginny joined George at Weasley's Wizarding Wheezes.
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Puck - Jul 27, 2007 10:12 am (#60 of 127)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Percy was there on the train platform. Perhaps his child was named "Fred"....
Maria had the theory that when JKR used the term "croaked" to decribe someone's voice, then that person later did. As we were reading , I gasped and called her attention to the line "Fred croaked". However, this theory does not pan out, as Ron and Kreacher survived.
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Soul Search - Jul 27, 2007 10:17 am (#61 of 127)
I think it is significant that none of the good guys got revenge.
Our "wishful speculation" had Neville doing in Bellatrix, something happening to Umbridge at Harry's hand, etc. But, nothing like that happened.
Molly killed Bellatrix to protect her kids, not out of revenge for anything Bellatrix might have done.
The only revenge that comes to mind was from Voldemort: the Malfoys, others that displeased him, and, of couse, his pursuit of Harry, which backfired.
Harry's immediate thoughts during his final defeat of Voldemort are to protect those around him, not of revenge for his mother and father.
I think on my next series reread I might have to keep the lack of revenge in mind to see if it is a consistant theme.
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Puck - Jul 27, 2007 10:20 am (#62 of 127)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
True. Lupin didn't do in Greyback, either.
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Soul Search - Jul 27, 2007 10:52 am (#63 of 127)
I wondering if killing for revenge counts as murder and damages one's soul, whereas killing in defense only scratches it a little.
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I Am Used Vlad - Jul 27, 2007 11:10 am (#64 of 127)
I Am Almighty!
Colin's death bothered me the most. Reading CoS will never be the same.
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Solitaire - Jul 27, 2007 11:40 am (#65 of 127)
Snape's death turned out to be almost meaningless in that it didn't gain LV anything, and didn't really gain Harry anything either, other than to provide an opportunity for Snape to pass along his memories.
I've not yet finished reading this thread, but I just have to jump in now. I am afraid I must respectfully disagree here. Snape's death may not have gained LV anything, but he helped others immeasurably, IMO. Snape took with him one vital piece of information about the Elder Wand which would certainly have cost Draco and possibly Harry their lives. If Snape had confided to LV that it was Draco who'd disarmed Dumbledore, Draco would have been toast. LV would have gone after him first. Then we'd have had another unnecessary death, unless Snape had known and told LV that Harry had since disarmed Draco. Then again, maybe Voldemort would still have been too foolish or too arrogant to figure out what Harry was able to understand about wand allegiance. Still, if he had understood, his first task would have been to kill Draco and subsequently disarm Harry, and that might have changed outcomes considerably.
I believe the fact that Snape died as he did continued that "protection factor" around Harry. Even though he didn't actually love Harry, he still gave up his life. I also think Snape knew in the end that Harry would take the time to look at his memories. Perhaps, in addition to looking into Lily's eyes one last time, Snape was reading Harry's intentions, as well. He has followed Harry's path all year, and I think Snape knew he could trust Harry to look at the memories.
It is ironic that, in death, Snape finally received the respect and recognition he'd craved, which allowed people to understand how he had contributed to LV's downfall all these years. Harry gave him that recognition before the Wizarding community, and he didn't have to do it. He could have kept those private things to himself and still defeated LV. I think it took guts for Harry to have to say things that proved he'd been wrong about Snape all these years.
Also, I believe Snape ultimately got a hero's burial following the final battles. At least we know Nagini didn't eat him! And since the dead never truly leave us, well ... I can only hope Snape knows he has been vindicated in death. It isn't as satisfying as it might have been while he was alive, but ...
Solitaire
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Luna Logic - Jul 27, 2007 12:04 pm (#66 of 127)
from the other side (of the Channel)
Edited by Jul 27, 2007 12:05 pm
Solitaire : Even though he didn't actually love Harry, he still gave up his life. I also think Snape knew in the end that Harry would take the time to look at his memories. Perhaps, in addition to looking into Lily's eyes one last time, Snape was reading Harry's intentions, as well. He has followed Harry's path all year, and I think Snape knew he could trust Harry to look at the memories.
I am just coming from reading the today's discussion on the Snape thread, and I think the opinion you express here resume my (actual! ) thought.
Solitaire: Harry gave him that recognition before the Wizarding community, and he didn't have to do it. He could have kept those private things to himself and still defeated LV. I think it took guts for Harry to have to say things that proved he'd been wrong about Snape all these years.
I think this is a most important fact. Considering the discussion above, about revenge, I would say that in JKR world, the important thing is not revenge, but acknowledgment of errors.
But I'm not so sure about the hero's funeral...
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Soul Search - Jul 27, 2007 12:13 pm (#67 of 127)
Solitaire, really good observation!
...and, Snape could (might) have saved his own life if he had convinced Voldemort that Draco was the master of the Elder Wand.
This is serious enough that I want to make sure Snape knew that Draco had become master of the Elder Wand. I can't think of any direct canon, but I think I will re-read "A Prince's Tale" with it in mind.
If Snape knew Draco was master of the Elder Wand then he did, indeed, die for something (Draco, Harry, cause, revenge on Voldemort?) and a hero's death.
I wonder if the "Protect Draco" part of the vow was still in effect. Draco had completed his task for Voldemort, but I can't recall if the vow was task specific or open ended.
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Allison R - Jul 27, 2007 12:47 pm (#68 of 127)
Saying goodbye to a friend: We love you, Dusty Bunny. You will be missed.
I'm probably having a brain cramp... but do we know that Snape knew about he Elder Wand and the Deathly Hallows before that last, final confrontation with Voldemort in the Shrieking Shack? I thought when Dd called him in to help with his hand, Dd was a bit purposefully vague about how he sustained the injury and never mentioned putting on the ring because it was one of the Hallows, right? So the Shrieking Shack could have been the first time Snape had heard of it.
If Snape only knew about the Elder Wand in the very last minutes before his death, he might not have had time to go back and re-process all the events in light of this new information even if he had heard the story of the Elder Wand. If he didn't know the story of the Elder Wand, then all he knew was that Voldemort was talking about some wand that was apparently supposed to be very powerful but wasn't working for him the way he thought it should.
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legolas returns - Jul 27, 2007 12:53 pm (#69 of 127)
I dont think Snape knew about the Deathly Hallows. In the Princes Tale-All he knew was that the ring was cursed. Dumbledore said that he was tempted and Snape asks him what by. Dumbledore changes the conversation. I dont think he knew about the wand and he did not know that Harrys cloak was the final hallow. As far as I know he only knew Harry had an invisibility cloak. He never had time to examine it-even in POA he was so anxious to get to SIrius.
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Remi - Jul 27, 2007 5:06 pm (#70 of 127)
Dumbledore's woman through and through
I don't think Snape knew about the Deathly Hallows either. I'm re-reading that section of the book, and I think Snape seems genuinely surprised when Voldie says, "While you live, Severus, the Elder Wand cannot be truly mine." I mean, Snape protests with a "My Lord!" (EXCLAMATION) as he raises his wand against Voldie's 'attack' If he knew about the Hallows, I think he may have been prepared.
By the way, was anyone else surprised that ARTHUR got the reprieve and Lupin & Tonks were the two who got the ax instead? I would've bet my life that Hagrid got the reprieve, and I was more-than-hoping-almost-praying that Lupin would live - I really thought one of Harry's father's friend had to survive, right? WRONG!
I want to ask Jo why oh why Teddy had to grow up as an orphan. But at least she gave him Harry as a godparent, so he'd have someone who has been there to care of him.
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Soul Search - Jul 27, 2007 5:32 pm (#71 of 127)
I'll bet Teddy got a toy broom on his first birthday.
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Vox Gerbilis - Jul 27, 2007 5:44 pm (#72 of 127)
I never really warmed to Tonks as a character, so I was not much affected by her death, but I'm disturbed by her decision to join the battle. I agreed entirely with Harry when he rebuked Lupin for leaving his pregnant wife to accompany the trio on their mission. I was glad that Lupin subsequently returned to her. However, I don't think that Lupin was wrong to join the battle of Hogwarts. Parent-soldiers face a horrible dilemma, and sometimes that parent must risk sacrificing his own life to fight for a worthy cause. But I can't agree that both of Teddy's parents had to make that decision. One of them should have stayed alive for his sake. Her devotion to Lupin also was not a justification. Better for her to live as a widow than for her child to be an orphan.
I haven't worked out the timeline, but I also wonder if Tonks was mentally and physically fit for this battle. Maybe witches have it easier than muggles, but essential childcare and househole chores were all I could manage for the first month or two after my daughter's birth.
It's all about choices, and I'm convinced that Tonks made the wrong choice.
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Remi - Jul 27, 2007 6:03 pm (#73 of 127)
Dumbledore's woman through and through
Nice point about the post-childbirth fitness of Tonks. Wizards may be very different.
(I on the other hand wasn't capable of doing anything a fraction as challenging 12 weeks post labour).
I can only guess that the reason for Tonks battling was to help make sure that Teddy would grow up in a world that was Voldemort-free. For the greater good. I honestly have no idea if I'm capable of making the same choice, but I find Lupin & Tonks' decision extremely admirable and heart-breaking.
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Solitaire - Jul 27, 2007 7:37 pm (#74 of 127)
I think Remi is right ... Tonks was probably thinking about the future. She knew that if Voldemort wasn't defeated--and if Auntie Bella had her way--Baby Teddy would be toast. I think she did what she felt she had to do.
Teddy has at least had Granny Andromeda, the Potters, and the entire Weasley clan to stand with him as a surrogate family. While he has missed out having a great dad and a fun mom, he has certainly not missed out on love ... has he?
Solitaire
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Vox Gerbilis - Jul 28, 2007 4:43 am (#75 of 127)
Good points, Remi and Soli, but I'm not persuaded. I don't believe that Tonks's participation in the battle increased the odds against LV to any significant degree. On the other hand, if LV prevailed, that's all the more reason why Teddy would need a strong mother to look after him. Tonks also might have considered herself as part of a reserve force that would fight against Voldemort in the future.
I'm not a Tonks fan because it seems her flamboyance exceeds her effectiveness. All derring-do with very little actually done. Dashing off to join her husband in battle and ending up dead corroborates that impression.
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Puck - Jul 28, 2007 6:29 am (#76 of 127)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Vox, I agree. Tonks should have stayed with her child. A mother's first instinct should be to protect her young -as shown by Molly.
I new Lupin would go, if only to uncomplicate the whole Daddy turning into a vicious creature every month thing.
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Remi - Jul 28, 2007 10:09 am (#77 of 127)
Dumbledore's woman through and through
Oh, I certainly wish Tonks had not fought, had not been killed and that Teddy grew up with a mommy. But I'm just trying to figure out why Jo did what she did and what reasons she'd give Tonks to do what she did.
Molly did protect her kids instinctively - and her instincts were to fight. Tonks is an auror. It may not be so far to think that she perceived that Teddy's safety was threatened and she so fought accordingly.
I would love to know Jo's take on it. I, personally, don't want to think that Tonks fought out of attachment to Lupin & concerns about his safety (over Teddy's). But I think the last we see of alive-Tonks, she had inquired about Lupin's whereabouts and just followed......
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Mrs Brisbee - Jul 28, 2007 2:26 pm (#78 of 127)
I think Tonks did the right thing. If the hour when everything is at stake is not the hour to stand up and fight, then what is? I don't think it matters that she was only one person and therefore just a drop in the bucket against Voldemort's forces. If everyone had felt that way then no one would have shown up to fight. Part of what earned the Good Guys the victory is that so many people came to fight the final battle. Lupin and Tonks knew that their child would be cared for should they die. They knew what the world would be like should Voldemort win. Tonks was a trained Auror, too, and had been in battles with Death Eaters before, so she was not only obligated by her job to protect others but she should be considered competent to do so, more so than most of the Moms and Dads that showed up to fight that day.
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Choices - Jul 28, 2007 2:32 pm (#79 of 127)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Teddy may have to grow up without a Mom and Dad, but thanks to them (and others) he can grow up without fear of Voldemort or DE's or seeing the Dark Mark over the houses of friends and family, knowing that someone dear to him is dead inside. Obviously, Dora and Remus thought this was something worth dying for - a better world for their son. They knew he would be loved and cared for.
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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 29, 2007 12:29 am (#80 of 127)
When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
I honestly don't think Tonks was considering that Teddy would grow up without a mother, because I don't think she expected to die. She thought she would keep Remus from dying, and thus allow Teddy to have two parents. If we had seen the scense where they died, I think we would have seen a whole lot of remorse on Tonks' face when she realized what it meant. Lupin is cornered, Tonks charges in only to be surrounded by Death Eaters. Lupin grabs Tonks hand. Tonks looks around, realizes what it means, looks at Lupin, and says "Oh no, Tedd..." as she is hit with an AK.
On a side note, the idea of Lupin's child not having to grow up with out a family despite losing his parents was foreshadowed...kind of...in reverse. Remember the scene with the boggart in the drawing room in OotP? Molly, while she was in her fit of tears, asked what would happen to her children if she an Arthur died. Lupin responded something along the lines of "Do you think we'd let them starve?". Then we later find out that Teddy comes around to Harry's house ll the time for dinner. So Harry makes sure he doesn't "let him starve". Kind of a nice reverse on a throw away line. The point being that the order is a sort of family, and they look out for each other.
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Puck - Jul 29, 2007 5:52 am (#81 of 127)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Nice catch, wandless!
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Luna Logic - Jul 29, 2007 8:44 am (#82 of 127)
from the other side (of the Channel)
Yes, that "Do you think we'd let them starve?" did me a great good!
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Chemyst - Jul 29, 2007 5:11 pm (#83 of 127)
"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
I honestly don't think Tonks was considering that Teddy would grow up without a mother, because I don't think she expected to die. –Wandless Wizard
I don't think she expected to die either, even though the Bellatrix-factor would have put her at high risk. Most of those fighting did not have an aunt who, as a chief officer for the Dark Lord, has been assigned to take you out personally. Tonks had already won a personal love-battle just in getting Lupin to marry her. Had Bella survived, Teddy would still have been in danger from Bella's wrath no matter which side won at Hogwarts. I can totally understand a 'Live Free or Die' attitude in such a case.
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megfox* - Jul 29, 2007 5:24 pm (#84 of 127)
In her interview on NBC, Jo said that she saved Arthur in OoP and killed Remus and Tonks instead. She wanted to have an "echo" of what happened to Harry, to show the effect that Voldemort had on a lot of lives, that he left orphans in his wake. She also said that she didn't want to kill off who she felt was the only good father in the series, and someone who was such a strong father figure to Harry, and she had already killed off Sirius. She also said it was hard to kill them, as she really loved them as characters.
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Remi - Jul 30, 2007 1:46 pm (#85 of 127)
Dumbledore's woman through and through
I saw the Dateline interview as well. I was touched by how concerned she was about Teddy - having killed off his parents she really wanted to make sure he was alright.
As much as I adore Lupin and did not want him to die, I think I'm okay knowing that he died (as did Tonks) to in effect save Arthur.
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Solitaire - Jul 30, 2007 2:05 pm (#86 of 127)
Perhaps Tonks believed that Bella would come after her, Remus, and Teddy, particularly after what happened to her dad. It is possible that she felt she needed to meet Bella away from home, to protect her son. Consider Voldemort's comment in Ch. 1 about the "diseased" family trees, directed most pointedly at Bella and Narcissa:
"You must prune yours, must you not, to keep it healthy? Cut away those parts that threaten the health of the rest."
"Yes, my Lord," whispered Bellatrix, and her eyes swam with tears of gratitude again. "At the first chance!"
Perhaps Hogwarts was her first chance to battle Tonks and Remus, and maybe she killed them both. JM2K ...
Solitaire
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Esther Rose - Jul 30, 2007 2:09 pm (#87 of 127)
Solitaire,
I just read JKR's webchat. She said that Bellatrix killed Tonks. (Which I had assumed because Bella was after Tonks with a vengence in 7 Harrys) And Dolohov killed Lupin. sigh... (off to cry like a house elf.)
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legolas returns - Jul 30, 2007 2:36 pm (#88 of 127)
I dont think Tonks had a chance against Bellatrix. She managed to escape the first time. I think that would have made Bellatrix more determined to kill her. She was pruning her family as Voldemort asked.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 30, 2007 4:56 pm (#89 of 127)
I think Bella's fate was sealed the moment she killed Dora, had Molly not dispatched Bella in so efficent a manner, Andromeda would have made it her mission to hunt down and destroy Bella becoming Nemesis.
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Solitaire - Jul 30, 2007 6:56 pm (#90 of 127)
Yeah, I don't think either Andromeda or Narcissa had very sisterly feelings for Bella dear by the time DH opens. As for taking her on over Tonks, I should think she would already be itching to take her on over Ted! After the "pruning" comments, I am guessing she made her own extended family a priority here.
Solitaire
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Puck - Jul 30, 2007 7:28 pm (#91 of 127)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
The comment about George never getting over losing Fred was so sad. I kept picturing him saying the first half of a sentence and waiting for someone to finish it for him.
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Veritaserum - Jul 30, 2007 9:05 pm (#92 of 127)
Go Jays!
Oh, Puck, you're making me want to cry...
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Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 31, 2007 4:30 am (#93 of 127)
Knowing what twins are like, even those who loose their twin in the womb, I'm worried about George. I agree that he won't be getting over the death of Fred.
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Puck - Jul 31, 2007 5:39 am (#94 of 127)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Jo said he names his first child Fred. Well, at least we know he does manage to move on in his life.
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Solitaire - Jul 31, 2007 11:05 am (#95 of 127)
Fred still died a hero's death, defending those who were important to him, and I think that's how he would have wanted to go. He's now onto the "next great adventure" with those Magical Mischief Makers--Moony, Prongs & Padfoot--probably making mischief beyond the veil!
Solitaire
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Veritaserum - Jul 31, 2007 1:25 pm (#96 of 127)
Go Jays!
Messrs. Moony, Padfoot, Prongs and Rapier bring you... the Marauders Map, Afterlife edition
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Remi - Jul 31, 2007 3:53 pm (#97 of 127)
Dumbledore's woman through and through
Thanks for making me laugh thru my tears
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Phelim Mcintyre - Aug 1, 2007 3:38 am (#98 of 127)
At least Fred doen't become a ghost - he would have given Peeves a run for his money!
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legolas returns - Aug 1, 2007 11:47 am (#99 of 127)
I wonder who the other 50 bodies were and I wonder if they were given a memorial at Hogwarts?
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Celestina Warbeck - Aug 5, 2007 3:08 am (#100 of 127)
Fred's death was the worst!!!! I was completely in tears... "the ghost of the last laugh".
I had expected Hagrid to die so the reprieve made be heave a sigh of relief!!!
I must confess though that I felt a bit shortchanged that we never got to know how Tonks and Lupin died. I had been pretty sure they would die and I had really wanted to know how, but I never really found out. It was touching nevertheless. My heart just went out to little Teddy somehow even though he didn't quite know what had happened... I could just imagine his hair turning a mousy brown!
Bellatrix's end was satisfying and Molly's cry was such a high-five moment, if I may...
I find I was most saddened by Snape's death, I am glad though that he found a measure of redemption.
Fred's death was also hard on me because, it had a van Gogh like quality to it, in the sense that close relationship between Fred and George reminded me oof the close relationship between Vincent and Theo van Gogh. Although, in the case of Fred and George, it was George who loss his ear while, Fred ultimately liost his life.
Lupin and Tonks death bothered me greatly too because, in effect Teddy has become the (Harry/Neville) of his generation.
Moody's death did not bother me because, he died as he woud have liked, a warrior to the end who died in battle.
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Madam Pince - Jul 25, 2007 7:03 pm (#52 of 127)
The eyes are the windows to the soul...
Oops! Nathan, here I thought you were being funny in an earlier post about the van Gogh brothers -- I thought you were just making an "'ear 'ear" joke! Uncultured swine that I am, I must admit that I don't know much of anything about van Gogh except that he was missing an ear! I apologize for giggling earlier!
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 25, 2007 8:41 pm (#53 of 127)
Madam P. No worries, I should have explained the comparison. It just seemed apt to me because of Fred and George's closeness reminded me of the van Gogh brother because like Fred and George, Vincent and Theo van Gogh were extraordinarily close and it seems apt in the sense that both sets that Theo and George both lost brothers at an early age and were both greatly affected by the loss.
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Mrs Figg - Jul 26, 2007 7:26 am (#54 of 127)
I was not surprised that Lupin died in book 7 all the other mauraders had died (Peter in this book too) and it seemed befitting that he should go with the other mauraders. I was surprised that Tonks died, and was very sad for little Teddy. Knowing Harry was his godfather, I thought he would end up living with him, but I guess Andromeda being his grandmother makes more sense.
I think that Hedwig's death was a reminder of the innocent casualties of war (though not directly involved in the fight she still was caught in the middle). Fred's death was the saddest, I agree with Die Zimtzicke that it should have been neither or both. The comparison to the Van Gogh brothers by Nathan was intersting, I remember from the museum exhibit that Theo died just 6 months after Vincent (grief and syphillis), though they were very disimilar in personality unlike Fred and George. I hope that George did not meet the same fate as Theo, someone has to keep Weasley's Wizarding Wheezes going.
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Puck - Jul 26, 2007 10:40 am (#55 of 127)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
George will honor his twin's memory. I knew we would lose one of them, though sad to be right.
I long ago said Creevy was toast. Again, sad to be right.
Still, I thought it would be worse, with more familiar faces lying in the Great Hall.
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Madam Pince - Jul 26, 2007 11:55 pm (#56 of 127)
The eyes are the windows to the soul...
I was writing a post the other day in answer to Die, but our eckeltricity went out and it got lost.
I think the point of the pointless deaths was actually that they were pointless, if you know what I mean. No matter how justified a war is, there will always be innocent deaths. Robert E. Lee said (paraphrased but close) "It is well that war is so terrible, lest we should grow too fond of it."
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Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 27, 2007 2:39 am (#57 of 127)
At least three of the deaths (Dobbie, Remus, Fred) put paid to the idea that we had that those wished Happy Birthday on JKR's website survived. Oh well, another theory bites the dust.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jul 27, 2007 8:23 am (#58 of 127)
I admit, I never liked that birthday theory. I had actually forgotten about it. I wish we had a thread about theories that we liked that didn't work out. We could say why we liked them and if they played out in any way.
I also hope George "forged" on in memory of Fred. If he did, it would explain why Ginny didn't insist on naming one of her children after him. Maybe George had already done so? I suppose if he had, he would have been on the platform with his kid, too, but one can hope. I really dislike all the kids names in the epilogue.
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Veritaserum - Jul 27, 2007 8:38 am (#59 of 127)
Go Jays!
I'm really hoping Ginny joined George at Weasley's Wizarding Wheezes.
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Puck - Jul 27, 2007 10:12 am (#60 of 127)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Percy was there on the train platform. Perhaps his child was named "Fred"....
Maria had the theory that when JKR used the term "croaked" to decribe someone's voice, then that person later did. As we were reading , I gasped and called her attention to the line "Fred croaked". However, this theory does not pan out, as Ron and Kreacher survived.
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Soul Search - Jul 27, 2007 10:17 am (#61 of 127)
I think it is significant that none of the good guys got revenge.
Our "wishful speculation" had Neville doing in Bellatrix, something happening to Umbridge at Harry's hand, etc. But, nothing like that happened.
Molly killed Bellatrix to protect her kids, not out of revenge for anything Bellatrix might have done.
The only revenge that comes to mind was from Voldemort: the Malfoys, others that displeased him, and, of couse, his pursuit of Harry, which backfired.
Harry's immediate thoughts during his final defeat of Voldemort are to protect those around him, not of revenge for his mother and father.
I think on my next series reread I might have to keep the lack of revenge in mind to see if it is a consistant theme.
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Puck - Jul 27, 2007 10:20 am (#62 of 127)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
True. Lupin didn't do in Greyback, either.
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Soul Search - Jul 27, 2007 10:52 am (#63 of 127)
I wondering if killing for revenge counts as murder and damages one's soul, whereas killing in defense only scratches it a little.
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I Am Used Vlad - Jul 27, 2007 11:10 am (#64 of 127)
I Am Almighty!
Colin's death bothered me the most. Reading CoS will never be the same.
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Solitaire - Jul 27, 2007 11:40 am (#65 of 127)
Snape's death turned out to be almost meaningless in that it didn't gain LV anything, and didn't really gain Harry anything either, other than to provide an opportunity for Snape to pass along his memories.
I've not yet finished reading this thread, but I just have to jump in now. I am afraid I must respectfully disagree here. Snape's death may not have gained LV anything, but he helped others immeasurably, IMO. Snape took with him one vital piece of information about the Elder Wand which would certainly have cost Draco and possibly Harry their lives. If Snape had confided to LV that it was Draco who'd disarmed Dumbledore, Draco would have been toast. LV would have gone after him first. Then we'd have had another unnecessary death, unless Snape had known and told LV that Harry had since disarmed Draco. Then again, maybe Voldemort would still have been too foolish or too arrogant to figure out what Harry was able to understand about wand allegiance. Still, if he had understood, his first task would have been to kill Draco and subsequently disarm Harry, and that might have changed outcomes considerably.
I believe the fact that Snape died as he did continued that "protection factor" around Harry. Even though he didn't actually love Harry, he still gave up his life. I also think Snape knew in the end that Harry would take the time to look at his memories. Perhaps, in addition to looking into Lily's eyes one last time, Snape was reading Harry's intentions, as well. He has followed Harry's path all year, and I think Snape knew he could trust Harry to look at the memories.
It is ironic that, in death, Snape finally received the respect and recognition he'd craved, which allowed people to understand how he had contributed to LV's downfall all these years. Harry gave him that recognition before the Wizarding community, and he didn't have to do it. He could have kept those private things to himself and still defeated LV. I think it took guts for Harry to have to say things that proved he'd been wrong about Snape all these years.
Also, I believe Snape ultimately got a hero's burial following the final battles. At least we know Nagini didn't eat him! And since the dead never truly leave us, well ... I can only hope Snape knows he has been vindicated in death. It isn't as satisfying as it might have been while he was alive, but ...
Solitaire
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Luna Logic - Jul 27, 2007 12:04 pm (#66 of 127)
from the other side (of the Channel)
Edited by Jul 27, 2007 12:05 pm
Solitaire : Even though he didn't actually love Harry, he still gave up his life. I also think Snape knew in the end that Harry would take the time to look at his memories. Perhaps, in addition to looking into Lily's eyes one last time, Snape was reading Harry's intentions, as well. He has followed Harry's path all year, and I think Snape knew he could trust Harry to look at the memories.
I am just coming from reading the today's discussion on the Snape thread, and I think the opinion you express here resume my (actual! ) thought.
Solitaire: Harry gave him that recognition before the Wizarding community, and he didn't have to do it. He could have kept those private things to himself and still defeated LV. I think it took guts for Harry to have to say things that proved he'd been wrong about Snape all these years.
I think this is a most important fact. Considering the discussion above, about revenge, I would say that in JKR world, the important thing is not revenge, but acknowledgment of errors.
But I'm not so sure about the hero's funeral...
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Soul Search - Jul 27, 2007 12:13 pm (#67 of 127)
Solitaire, really good observation!
...and, Snape could (might) have saved his own life if he had convinced Voldemort that Draco was the master of the Elder Wand.
This is serious enough that I want to make sure Snape knew that Draco had become master of the Elder Wand. I can't think of any direct canon, but I think I will re-read "A Prince's Tale" with it in mind.
If Snape knew Draco was master of the Elder Wand then he did, indeed, die for something (Draco, Harry, cause, revenge on Voldemort?) and a hero's death.
I wonder if the "Protect Draco" part of the vow was still in effect. Draco had completed his task for Voldemort, but I can't recall if the vow was task specific or open ended.
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Allison R - Jul 27, 2007 12:47 pm (#68 of 127)
Saying goodbye to a friend: We love you, Dusty Bunny. You will be missed.
I'm probably having a brain cramp... but do we know that Snape knew about he Elder Wand and the Deathly Hallows before that last, final confrontation with Voldemort in the Shrieking Shack? I thought when Dd called him in to help with his hand, Dd was a bit purposefully vague about how he sustained the injury and never mentioned putting on the ring because it was one of the Hallows, right? So the Shrieking Shack could have been the first time Snape had heard of it.
If Snape only knew about the Elder Wand in the very last minutes before his death, he might not have had time to go back and re-process all the events in light of this new information even if he had heard the story of the Elder Wand. If he didn't know the story of the Elder Wand, then all he knew was that Voldemort was talking about some wand that was apparently supposed to be very powerful but wasn't working for him the way he thought it should.
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legolas returns - Jul 27, 2007 12:53 pm (#69 of 127)
I dont think Snape knew about the Deathly Hallows. In the Princes Tale-All he knew was that the ring was cursed. Dumbledore said that he was tempted and Snape asks him what by. Dumbledore changes the conversation. I dont think he knew about the wand and he did not know that Harrys cloak was the final hallow. As far as I know he only knew Harry had an invisibility cloak. He never had time to examine it-even in POA he was so anxious to get to SIrius.
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Remi - Jul 27, 2007 5:06 pm (#70 of 127)
Dumbledore's woman through and through
I don't think Snape knew about the Deathly Hallows either. I'm re-reading that section of the book, and I think Snape seems genuinely surprised when Voldie says, "While you live, Severus, the Elder Wand cannot be truly mine." I mean, Snape protests with a "My Lord!" (EXCLAMATION) as he raises his wand against Voldie's 'attack' If he knew about the Hallows, I think he may have been prepared.
By the way, was anyone else surprised that ARTHUR got the reprieve and Lupin & Tonks were the two who got the ax instead? I would've bet my life that Hagrid got the reprieve, and I was more-than-hoping-almost-praying that Lupin would live - I really thought one of Harry's father's friend had to survive, right? WRONG!
I want to ask Jo why oh why Teddy had to grow up as an orphan. But at least she gave him Harry as a godparent, so he'd have someone who has been there to care of him.
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Soul Search - Jul 27, 2007 5:32 pm (#71 of 127)
I'll bet Teddy got a toy broom on his first birthday.
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Vox Gerbilis - Jul 27, 2007 5:44 pm (#72 of 127)
I never really warmed to Tonks as a character, so I was not much affected by her death, but I'm disturbed by her decision to join the battle. I agreed entirely with Harry when he rebuked Lupin for leaving his pregnant wife to accompany the trio on their mission. I was glad that Lupin subsequently returned to her. However, I don't think that Lupin was wrong to join the battle of Hogwarts. Parent-soldiers face a horrible dilemma, and sometimes that parent must risk sacrificing his own life to fight for a worthy cause. But I can't agree that both of Teddy's parents had to make that decision. One of them should have stayed alive for his sake. Her devotion to Lupin also was not a justification. Better for her to live as a widow than for her child to be an orphan.
I haven't worked out the timeline, but I also wonder if Tonks was mentally and physically fit for this battle. Maybe witches have it easier than muggles, but essential childcare and househole chores were all I could manage for the first month or two after my daughter's birth.
It's all about choices, and I'm convinced that Tonks made the wrong choice.
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Remi - Jul 27, 2007 6:03 pm (#73 of 127)
Dumbledore's woman through and through
Nice point about the post-childbirth fitness of Tonks. Wizards may be very different.
(I on the other hand wasn't capable of doing anything a fraction as challenging 12 weeks post labour).
I can only guess that the reason for Tonks battling was to help make sure that Teddy would grow up in a world that was Voldemort-free. For the greater good. I honestly have no idea if I'm capable of making the same choice, but I find Lupin & Tonks' decision extremely admirable and heart-breaking.
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Solitaire - Jul 27, 2007 7:37 pm (#74 of 127)
I think Remi is right ... Tonks was probably thinking about the future. She knew that if Voldemort wasn't defeated--and if Auntie Bella had her way--Baby Teddy would be toast. I think she did what she felt she had to do.
Teddy has at least had Granny Andromeda, the Potters, and the entire Weasley clan to stand with him as a surrogate family. While he has missed out having a great dad and a fun mom, he has certainly not missed out on love ... has he?
Solitaire
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Vox Gerbilis - Jul 28, 2007 4:43 am (#75 of 127)
Good points, Remi and Soli, but I'm not persuaded. I don't believe that Tonks's participation in the battle increased the odds against LV to any significant degree. On the other hand, if LV prevailed, that's all the more reason why Teddy would need a strong mother to look after him. Tonks also might have considered herself as part of a reserve force that would fight against Voldemort in the future.
I'm not a Tonks fan because it seems her flamboyance exceeds her effectiveness. All derring-do with very little actually done. Dashing off to join her husband in battle and ending up dead corroborates that impression.
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Puck - Jul 28, 2007 6:29 am (#76 of 127)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Vox, I agree. Tonks should have stayed with her child. A mother's first instinct should be to protect her young -as shown by Molly.
I new Lupin would go, if only to uncomplicate the whole Daddy turning into a vicious creature every month thing.
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Remi - Jul 28, 2007 10:09 am (#77 of 127)
Dumbledore's woman through and through
Oh, I certainly wish Tonks had not fought, had not been killed and that Teddy grew up with a mommy. But I'm just trying to figure out why Jo did what she did and what reasons she'd give Tonks to do what she did.
Molly did protect her kids instinctively - and her instincts were to fight. Tonks is an auror. It may not be so far to think that she perceived that Teddy's safety was threatened and she so fought accordingly.
I would love to know Jo's take on it. I, personally, don't want to think that Tonks fought out of attachment to Lupin & concerns about his safety (over Teddy's). But I think the last we see of alive-Tonks, she had inquired about Lupin's whereabouts and just followed......
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Mrs Brisbee - Jul 28, 2007 2:26 pm (#78 of 127)
I think Tonks did the right thing. If the hour when everything is at stake is not the hour to stand up and fight, then what is? I don't think it matters that she was only one person and therefore just a drop in the bucket against Voldemort's forces. If everyone had felt that way then no one would have shown up to fight. Part of what earned the Good Guys the victory is that so many people came to fight the final battle. Lupin and Tonks knew that their child would be cared for should they die. They knew what the world would be like should Voldemort win. Tonks was a trained Auror, too, and had been in battles with Death Eaters before, so she was not only obligated by her job to protect others but she should be considered competent to do so, more so than most of the Moms and Dads that showed up to fight that day.
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Choices - Jul 28, 2007 2:32 pm (#79 of 127)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Teddy may have to grow up without a Mom and Dad, but thanks to them (and others) he can grow up without fear of Voldemort or DE's or seeing the Dark Mark over the houses of friends and family, knowing that someone dear to him is dead inside. Obviously, Dora and Remus thought this was something worth dying for - a better world for their son. They knew he would be loved and cared for.
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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 29, 2007 12:29 am (#80 of 127)
When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
I honestly don't think Tonks was considering that Teddy would grow up without a mother, because I don't think she expected to die. She thought she would keep Remus from dying, and thus allow Teddy to have two parents. If we had seen the scense where they died, I think we would have seen a whole lot of remorse on Tonks' face when she realized what it meant. Lupin is cornered, Tonks charges in only to be surrounded by Death Eaters. Lupin grabs Tonks hand. Tonks looks around, realizes what it means, looks at Lupin, and says "Oh no, Tedd..." as she is hit with an AK.
On a side note, the idea of Lupin's child not having to grow up with out a family despite losing his parents was foreshadowed...kind of...in reverse. Remember the scene with the boggart in the drawing room in OotP? Molly, while she was in her fit of tears, asked what would happen to her children if she an Arthur died. Lupin responded something along the lines of "Do you think we'd let them starve?". Then we later find out that Teddy comes around to Harry's house ll the time for dinner. So Harry makes sure he doesn't "let him starve". Kind of a nice reverse on a throw away line. The point being that the order is a sort of family, and they look out for each other.
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Puck - Jul 29, 2007 5:52 am (#81 of 127)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Nice catch, wandless!
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Luna Logic - Jul 29, 2007 8:44 am (#82 of 127)
from the other side (of the Channel)
Yes, that "Do you think we'd let them starve?" did me a great good!
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Chemyst - Jul 29, 2007 5:11 pm (#83 of 127)
"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
I honestly don't think Tonks was considering that Teddy would grow up without a mother, because I don't think she expected to die. –Wandless Wizard
I don't think she expected to die either, even though the Bellatrix-factor would have put her at high risk. Most of those fighting did not have an aunt who, as a chief officer for the Dark Lord, has been assigned to take you out personally. Tonks had already won a personal love-battle just in getting Lupin to marry her. Had Bella survived, Teddy would still have been in danger from Bella's wrath no matter which side won at Hogwarts. I can totally understand a 'Live Free or Die' attitude in such a case.
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megfox* - Jul 29, 2007 5:24 pm (#84 of 127)
In her interview on NBC, Jo said that she saved Arthur in OoP and killed Remus and Tonks instead. She wanted to have an "echo" of what happened to Harry, to show the effect that Voldemort had on a lot of lives, that he left orphans in his wake. She also said that she didn't want to kill off who she felt was the only good father in the series, and someone who was such a strong father figure to Harry, and she had already killed off Sirius. She also said it was hard to kill them, as she really loved them as characters.
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Remi - Jul 30, 2007 1:46 pm (#85 of 127)
Dumbledore's woman through and through
I saw the Dateline interview as well. I was touched by how concerned she was about Teddy - having killed off his parents she really wanted to make sure he was alright.
As much as I adore Lupin and did not want him to die, I think I'm okay knowing that he died (as did Tonks) to in effect save Arthur.
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Solitaire - Jul 30, 2007 2:05 pm (#86 of 127)
Perhaps Tonks believed that Bella would come after her, Remus, and Teddy, particularly after what happened to her dad. It is possible that she felt she needed to meet Bella away from home, to protect her son. Consider Voldemort's comment in Ch. 1 about the "diseased" family trees, directed most pointedly at Bella and Narcissa:
"You must prune yours, must you not, to keep it healthy? Cut away those parts that threaten the health of the rest."
"Yes, my Lord," whispered Bellatrix, and her eyes swam with tears of gratitude again. "At the first chance!"
Perhaps Hogwarts was her first chance to battle Tonks and Remus, and maybe she killed them both. JM2K ...
Solitaire
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Esther Rose - Jul 30, 2007 2:09 pm (#87 of 127)
Solitaire,
I just read JKR's webchat. She said that Bellatrix killed Tonks. (Which I had assumed because Bella was after Tonks with a vengence in 7 Harrys) And Dolohov killed Lupin. sigh... (off to cry like a house elf.)
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legolas returns - Jul 30, 2007 2:36 pm (#88 of 127)
I dont think Tonks had a chance against Bellatrix. She managed to escape the first time. I think that would have made Bellatrix more determined to kill her. She was pruning her family as Voldemort asked.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 30, 2007 4:56 pm (#89 of 127)
I think Bella's fate was sealed the moment she killed Dora, had Molly not dispatched Bella in so efficent a manner, Andromeda would have made it her mission to hunt down and destroy Bella becoming Nemesis.
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Solitaire - Jul 30, 2007 6:56 pm (#90 of 127)
Yeah, I don't think either Andromeda or Narcissa had very sisterly feelings for Bella dear by the time DH opens. As for taking her on over Tonks, I should think she would already be itching to take her on over Ted! After the "pruning" comments, I am guessing she made her own extended family a priority here.
Solitaire
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Puck - Jul 30, 2007 7:28 pm (#91 of 127)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
The comment about George never getting over losing Fred was so sad. I kept picturing him saying the first half of a sentence and waiting for someone to finish it for him.
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Veritaserum - Jul 30, 2007 9:05 pm (#92 of 127)
Go Jays!
Oh, Puck, you're making me want to cry...
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Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 31, 2007 4:30 am (#93 of 127)
Knowing what twins are like, even those who loose their twin in the womb, I'm worried about George. I agree that he won't be getting over the death of Fred.
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Puck - Jul 31, 2007 5:39 am (#94 of 127)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Jo said he names his first child Fred. Well, at least we know he does manage to move on in his life.
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Solitaire - Jul 31, 2007 11:05 am (#95 of 127)
Fred still died a hero's death, defending those who were important to him, and I think that's how he would have wanted to go. He's now onto the "next great adventure" with those Magical Mischief Makers--Moony, Prongs & Padfoot--probably making mischief beyond the veil!
Solitaire
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Veritaserum - Jul 31, 2007 1:25 pm (#96 of 127)
Go Jays!
Messrs. Moony, Padfoot, Prongs and Rapier bring you... the Marauders Map, Afterlife edition
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Remi - Jul 31, 2007 3:53 pm (#97 of 127)
Dumbledore's woman through and through
Thanks for making me laugh thru my tears
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Phelim Mcintyre - Aug 1, 2007 3:38 am (#98 of 127)
At least Fred doen't become a ghost - he would have given Peeves a run for his money!
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legolas returns - Aug 1, 2007 11:47 am (#99 of 127)
I wonder who the other 50 bodies were and I wonder if they were given a memorial at Hogwarts?
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Celestina Warbeck - Aug 5, 2007 3:08 am (#100 of 127)
Fred's death was the worst!!!! I was completely in tears... "the ghost of the last laugh".
I had expected Hagrid to die so the reprieve made be heave a sigh of relief!!!
I must confess though that I felt a bit shortchanged that we never got to know how Tonks and Lupin died. I had been pretty sure they would die and I had really wanted to know how, but I never really found out. It was touching nevertheless. My heart just went out to little Teddy somehow even though he didn't quite know what had happened... I could just imagine his hair turning a mousy brown!
Bellatrix's end was satisfying and Molly's cry was such a high-five moment, if I may...
Elanor- Hufflepuff Prefect
- Posts : 1440
Join date : 2011-02-19
Age : 51
Location : France
Deaths in Book Seven (Post 101 to 127)
Elanor Sat May 28, 2011 2:43 am
Snuffles - Aug 6, 2007 7:09 am (#101 of 127)
Olivia
I was preparing myself for lots of deaths in the book, but they all still came as a shock. The two that came as a real suprise were Dobby and Hedwig. It never entered my head that we may lose them.
I guessed that Snape would die, but I was hoping it was more of a heroic sort of death. In front of LV or some death eaters, protecting one of the trio or something. As it was, I was kind of dissapointed.
I was very upset at losing Lupin. I was hoping that one Marauder would survive the whole series. After getting over the shock, I remember thinking "Oh goodness, Soli is going to be very upset!"
I will take up Celestina's high five with Molly and Bellatrix!
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Celestina Warbeck - Aug 6, 2007 7:34 am (#102 of 127)
I agree with Snuffles about Snape's death... it was definitely unexpected. Not at all heroic. I would not however say that I was disappointed. Yes, the death did not touch me the way it should have, but I guess that was because till then all that we had figured out was that he had colluded with Dumbledore in killing him. It was only after reading The Prince's Tale that I realized what he had actually been up to and how tragic his death was. That was when I was definitely moved!!!
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QueenMaab - Aug 8, 2007 8:41 am (#103 of 127)
of the fae
I think Snape showed his true colours to Harry in giving him his memories at the end of his life. Remember he had asked Dumbledore not to reveal the best side of him, but to let him remain masked in his blanket of solitude and pain. Even as Headmaster, he tried to make sure the students were taken care of without giving up his death eater appearance. Giving Detention with Hagrid after all... after Ginny, Neville, and Luna, broke into his office and tried to steal Gryffidor's sword. Now from Snape, I think he was protecting them from the Carrows. I wonder if Snape ended up getting a portrait in the Headmaster's office.
Colin Creevey... I believe was an error on JKR's part. He shouldn't have even been in attendance at Hogwarts having been Muggle-born and unable to prove his blood status. How would he then be able to sneak back into the castle to be killed? Just a thought there.
So many questions, thoughts, speculations.....
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Die Zimtzicke - Aug 8, 2007 9:47 am (#104 of 127)
The rest of the DA got back in. Why not Colin? The book has many things I would consider mistakes, but not that.
The death that really got to me will always be Dobby's, because we got to see it, the reaction to it from many characters, and the aftermath. it was the most detailed death situation to me.
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Choices - Aug 8, 2007 9:52 am (#105 of 127)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
QueenMaab - "I wonder if Snape ended up getting a portrait in the Headmaster's office."
JKR said in a WebChat that Harry made sure that Snape got his portrait in the headmaster's office.
As to Colin, he and Dennis were very brave and daring. Colin came back to Hogwarts with some of the DA to fight against Voldemort. The DA members still had the coins Hermione created to call them or advise them of meetings. Colin evidently got the message and answered the call. Brave little guy!
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QueenMaab - Aug 8, 2007 3:05 pm (#106 of 127)
of the fae
Yes, but... in chapter thirty-one 'The Battle of Hogwarts'... "half of Gryffindor remained in their seats, necessitating Professor McGonagall's descent from the teachers' platform to chivvy the underage on their way. 'Absolutely not, Creevey, go! And you Peakes!'"
So it seems like Colin was in attendance at Hogwarts at that time. I do research such things before I post them.
And I'm so glad to hear that Snape is getting (or received) a headmaster's portrait.
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Choices - Aug 8, 2007 4:01 pm (#107 of 127)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Oh QueenMaab, you are right. I am about half-way through my reread, so have not gotten to the battle yet. I guess I thought that Colin wouldn't be at Hogwarts because he is Muggle born and it would be too dangerous. I should have checked. I thought he got called by the coin Hermione had used for the DA members. Evidently he appeared to leave Hogwarts, but sneaked back in to fight.
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mollis - Aug 9, 2007 1:56 pm (#108 of 127)
Actually, QueenMaab, I think Choices was right. In the chapter that you sited, the Weaslys are all sitting at the Gryfindor table as well, because Harry goes up to them to ask if they know where Ron and Hermione are. It seems that everyone who returned through the ROR to fight joined the current students in the Great Hall and, naturally, joined their (former) house tables.
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Choices - Aug 9, 2007 4:28 pm (#109 of 127)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Yes, Colin was there at the Gryffindor table and McGonagall told him and (Jimmy?) Peakes to leave because they were underage. Later in the "Forest Again" chapter, it says Colin must have sneaked back in to fight and was killed.
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QueenMaab - Aug 10, 2007 1:09 am (#110 of 127)
of the fae
Ok.... I surrender.
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Madam Pince - Aug 14, 2007 7:17 pm (#111 of 127)
The eyes are the windows to the soul...
Besides, JKR said it in the webchat. She said that the DAs all still had their coins as sort of "honor badges"; she said she liked to imagine Prof. Longbottom showing his to his admiring students.
Roseweasley: Why was colin creavey still a student at hogwarts when he was muggleborn surely he would have been locked up and interogated, not allowed back to school therefore, he shouldnt have died
J.K. Rowling: Colin wasn’t a student. He sneaked back with the rest of the DA, along with Fred, George and the rest. He ought not to have stayed behind when McGonagall told him to leave, but alas – he did.
----------------------------------------------
Vox Gerbilis, I'm with you on the Tonks decision. Like you, I was never very attached to the Tonks character -- never really took the time to analyze why, but after the end of DH it was confirmed for me. Although everyone makes good points about how she and Lupin would know that Teddy would be cared for by somebody, I still have to believe that in the greater scheme of things it would've been more important for her to be there to protect her son rather than join in the Battle of Hogwarts. For all she knew, Voldemort would still win, whether she was there and got killed or not. And she would have to expect that Andromeda would be high on the hit list, being married to Ted and all. So essentially she would be leaving her infant son with someone who is not what I would call in a safe position. (Not that she would be any safer than Andromeda in that situation, either, but still... Teddy is her responsibility.) That's just me, though, and I know others might make a different call.
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I'll bet Teddy got a toy broom on his first birthday.--Soul Search
Awwwwwww.... ***sniff, sniff...***
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One more webchat thing, earlier someone asked on this thread about Snape's portrait at Hogwarts. JKR said he didn't have one originally, but she liked to hope that Harry would've remedied that situation:
Laura Trego: Was the absence of snapes portrait in the headmasters office in the last scene innocent or deliberate
J.K. Rowling: It was deliberate. Snape had effectively abandoned his post before dying, so he had not merited inclusion in these august circles.
J.K. Rowling: However, I like to think that Harry would be instrumental in ensuring that Snape’s portrait would appear there in due course.
Edit: Man, this is getting creepy. Here I am post #111. Earlier on some thread I posted at 4:44. I keep looking at digital clocks all summer long catching them at 11:11 or 2:22 or something. I am starting to seriously worry what is up with that...
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Die Zimtzicke - Aug 14, 2007 9:24 pm (#112 of 127)
The DA were not very honorable when most of them were not keeping their coins handy a book earlier. Only Luna and Neville had honor then, and they were made out to be rather pathetic. Once Harry is a big hero again, then everyone that was ever involved with him digs out their coins? That is kind of low to me.
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Madam Pince - Aug 14, 2007 9:48 pm (#113 of 127)
The eyes are the windows to the soul...
I took it that nobody else in the DA kept their coins handy in HBP because they had no way of realizing they would ever be needed again. The DA wasn't "active" anymore, in the sense that regular meetings had been discontinued. Everybody moved on to other things -- sports, boyfriends/girlfriends, career plans, NEWTS, etc.
I interpreted Luna and Neville as having kept them because Luna and Neville are sort of the...ummm... what's the word here... not really "outcasts" but maybe not really the most popular students at Hogwarts? They didn't really have a lot of extracurriculars and interests and friendships outside the DA, so naturally they would keep their coins closer as a reminder of something they "belonged" to. Does that make sense?
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Neville Longbottom - Aug 15, 2007 12:39 am (#114 of 127)
The DA were not very honorable when most of them were not keeping their coins handy a book earlier.
The DA didn't have the coins handy, because Harry himself basically abandoned the group for a whole year. Why should the others expect, that suddenly there was some reason to check their coins, after nearly a year. The moment Voldemort took over, at a time, where hardly anyone could profit from being in close contact with Harry, the DA members started to fight again.
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TomProffitt - Aug 15, 2007 4:47 am (#115 of 127)
Bullheaded empiricist
Having served in the Military I have a different view on the Tonks thing. When you train to do a job for years you begin to feel an obligation to do what you've been trained to do. When the final battle came along I'm sure Tonks felt something along the lines of "This is what the Ministry trained me to do ever since I got out of Hogwarts. I owe it to them, the Wizarding World, Mad Eye and all my other fallen comrades, to repay that trust by using the skills they gave me in the final battle." Was she torn at the prospect of leaving little Teddy? Of course she was, but she had made other commitments as well. Tonks was honoring a choice she had made years before and would have felt like a traitor had she not showed up for the battle.
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Madam Pince - Aug 15, 2007 11:38 am (#116 of 127)
The eyes are the windows to the soul...
Good point, Neville. I don't remember anybody saying at the end of OotP "Oh and by the way, keep these coins handy just in case we ever need to get in touch with you again in some sort of war-situation." I wouldn't call them "not honorable" just because they didn't think ahead -- maybe not as astute as they might've been, but I wouldn't associate honor with it.
It's sort of like Harry with Sirius' mirror -- look how long it took him to remember to try to use it. Maybe the DA members (less Luna and Neville, of course) never even thought to try their coins until things started getting rough. Unfortunately, it led to some of their deaths. But very honorable deaths.
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Allison R - Aug 15, 2007 6:54 pm (#117 of 127)
Saying goodbye to a friend: We love you, Dusty Bunny. You will be missed.
I'm not sure this is the best place to post this, but it's the closest related folder I could come up with...
I just finished a re-read of OotP and was really touched at the end of the book by the final scene at King's Cross. Harry has just lost Sirius and is still reeling from the death of Cedric the year previous. He gets off the train expecting to see only the Dursley's and finds a welcoming committe consisting of Mr and Mrs Weasley, Fred, George, Mad-Eye, Lupin, and Tonks.
Here is a group of adults who love him. They are essentially sending him a very strong message that even though Sirius is gone-- the closest thing to a parental figure he has any memory of-- here is a collective body who claim him, who tell the Dursely's in no uncertain terms that they will be held accountable for how they treat him, and that they will love and look after him and look out for his welfare. The message was so strong and clear to me that it really touched me-- and then it hit me:
Of the seven adults on that platform, only three of them will survive the final book. It made my heart hurt for Harry, YK? The enormity of his personal losses really touches me.
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NFla Barbara - Aug 15, 2007 8:23 pm (#118 of 127)
I have been going back and looking at lots of things in OoP with a new eye -- that scene certainly feels a lot different now that we know what happened, and underscores how painful these losses are.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 15, 2007 11:16 pm (#119 of 127)
The deaths of the fifty Hogwarts students and Colin Creevey'a death remind me of the Los Niños Héroes or the Boy Heroes of Chapultepec Castle who were six army cadets that died defending the citadel of Chapultepec Castle during the Battle of Chapultepec during the Mexican-American War.
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Remi - Aug 17, 2007 5:02 pm (#120 of 127)
Dumbledore's woman through and through
I just finished listening to Jim Dale's audio version of DH (have read it twice already), and I realized that we don't know what happened to Dean Thomas - I now fear that he is among the 50 people who are lying dead in the Great Hall.
We last see Dean fighting Dolohov - the DE who killed Lupin - as Harry, Ron & Hermione are trying to get to the Whomping Willow. Dolohov is next seen with Yaxley, unknowingly leading Harry to Voldemort in the Forest. There is no mention of Dean at the end.
It looks like I have another person to mourn.
And this might not be the right thread, but when Phineas Nigellus said, "And let it be noted that Slytherin House played its part!" what does he mean? The only Slytherin I see fighting on Harry's side was Slughorn. Did any Slytherin student die besides Crabbe?
[Allison - I'm also devastated by all Harry's losses.]
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kingdolohov - Aug 17, 2007 5:43 pm (#121 of 127)
Remi, I do not think that my namesake killed Dean, at least at that point. "Dean made the most of the Death Eater's momentary distraction, knocking him out with a Stunning Spell; Dolohov attempted to retaliate and Parvati shot a Body-Bind curse at him" (p. 645 American). Dolohov obviously was freed by another DE.
Greyback was hit by Hermione and then by Trelawney's ball, and he later ended up in the clearing with the other DEs and got taken down in the Great Hall fight. Apparently the Order/DA/school did a lousy job of taking care of defeated DEs. If they weren't prepared to kill they could have at least locked them up somewhere.
As for other Slytherins being involved, Phineas probably heard about Snape. It sounded like all of the portraits crammed into the portraits around the fights, so he very well might have witnessed the Harry-Voldemort dialogue, where Harry mentioned Snape helping Dumbledore. If any other Slytherin students died, it wasn't while defending the school; Voldemort says the rest of them (not Malfoy) joined him.
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Remi - Aug 17, 2007 5:52 pm (#122 of 127)
Dumbledore's woman through and through
Thanks, King How could I have forgotten about SNAPE! Yes, Phineas has reason to celebrate Slytherins part in Voldemort's defeat.
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Choices - Aug 17, 2007 6:15 pm (#123 of 127)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
And we can't forget Regulus' (also a relative of Phineas and a Slytherin) contribution to the defeat of Voldemort. It may have happened a while ago, but every notch out of the tree trunk makes it easier to fall.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 17, 2007 9:44 pm (#124 of 127)
Also Crabbe's last act was to destroy the diadem albeit inadvertently and unintentionally but, he did so nonetheless.
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Madam Pince - Aug 17, 2007 11:42 pm (#125 of 127)
The eyes are the windows to the soul...
Boy, that's really something, isn't it? Dumb old thick-headed Crabbe -- destroying one of Lord Voldemort's horcruxes. Something that Dumbledore, the world's most powerful wizard, had been trying to do for ages. Wow. Who'd have thought that? That's one that never made it onto any "Predictions" list, I'll bet!
I'd venture to say that his death is just about the most gruesome in the whole series, actually. Being burned to a crisp... ***shudder***
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Luna Logic - Aug 18, 2007 2:44 am (#126 of 127)
from the other side (of the Channel)
Kingdolohov: Apparently the Order/DA/school did a lousy job of taking care of defeated DEs. If they weren't prepared to kill they could have at least locked them up somewhere.
I agree with that. What a strange war, with no killing or safe binding of enemies, thus, finally, more friends killed when those enemies awake to their senses again.
One exception, McGonagall with the Carrows.
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Chemyst - Aug 18, 2007 8:16 pm (#127 of 127)
"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Remi asks in #120 …when Phineas Nigellus said, "And let it be noted that Slytherin House played its part!" what does he mean? The only Slytherin I see fighting on Harry's side was Slughorn.
kingdolohov adds Snape
Choices adds Regulus
Nathan adds Crabbe
Let's not forget the Family Malfoy--
Draco Malfoy - does not want to give Bellatrix a positive ID on the trio at the Malfoy Manor, and inadvertently paved the way for Harry to become master of the Elder Wand.
Lucius Malfoy - unwittingly played key roles in the destruction of the diary horcrux, the loss of the prophecy, and gave (albeit forced) Voldemort an inferior wand.
Narcissa Black Malfoy (presumed to be Slytherin based on Slughorn's comment that all Blacks except Sirius had been in his House) does not give Harry away.
Would you count the loyalties of Kreacher? He lead the house elves into battle with knives and kitchen utensils in the name of Regulus. True, he was never sorted into Slytherin, but was fighting "in the name of Regulus," a Slytherin.
And being a true Slytherin means looking out for oneself – so I think Phineas Nigelus Black's portrait was counting his own efforts too! He did several things; gathering information for Snape, giving the tip that allowed Harry to eventually get Gryffindor's sword, and occasionally helping Hermione deal with her loneliness during Ron's absence, keeping their morale up.
Olivia
I was preparing myself for lots of deaths in the book, but they all still came as a shock. The two that came as a real suprise were Dobby and Hedwig. It never entered my head that we may lose them.
I guessed that Snape would die, but I was hoping it was more of a heroic sort of death. In front of LV or some death eaters, protecting one of the trio or something. As it was, I was kind of dissapointed.
I was very upset at losing Lupin. I was hoping that one Marauder would survive the whole series. After getting over the shock, I remember thinking "Oh goodness, Soli is going to be very upset!"
I will take up Celestina's high five with Molly and Bellatrix!
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Celestina Warbeck - Aug 6, 2007 7:34 am (#102 of 127)
I agree with Snuffles about Snape's death... it was definitely unexpected. Not at all heroic. I would not however say that I was disappointed. Yes, the death did not touch me the way it should have, but I guess that was because till then all that we had figured out was that he had colluded with Dumbledore in killing him. It was only after reading The Prince's Tale that I realized what he had actually been up to and how tragic his death was. That was when I was definitely moved!!!
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QueenMaab - Aug 8, 2007 8:41 am (#103 of 127)
of the fae
I think Snape showed his true colours to Harry in giving him his memories at the end of his life. Remember he had asked Dumbledore not to reveal the best side of him, but to let him remain masked in his blanket of solitude and pain. Even as Headmaster, he tried to make sure the students were taken care of without giving up his death eater appearance. Giving Detention with Hagrid after all... after Ginny, Neville, and Luna, broke into his office and tried to steal Gryffidor's sword. Now from Snape, I think he was protecting them from the Carrows. I wonder if Snape ended up getting a portrait in the Headmaster's office.
Colin Creevey... I believe was an error on JKR's part. He shouldn't have even been in attendance at Hogwarts having been Muggle-born and unable to prove his blood status. How would he then be able to sneak back into the castle to be killed? Just a thought there.
So many questions, thoughts, speculations.....
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Die Zimtzicke - Aug 8, 2007 9:47 am (#104 of 127)
The rest of the DA got back in. Why not Colin? The book has many things I would consider mistakes, but not that.
The death that really got to me will always be Dobby's, because we got to see it, the reaction to it from many characters, and the aftermath. it was the most detailed death situation to me.
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Choices - Aug 8, 2007 9:52 am (#105 of 127)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
QueenMaab - "I wonder if Snape ended up getting a portrait in the Headmaster's office."
JKR said in a WebChat that Harry made sure that Snape got his portrait in the headmaster's office.
As to Colin, he and Dennis were very brave and daring. Colin came back to Hogwarts with some of the DA to fight against Voldemort. The DA members still had the coins Hermione created to call them or advise them of meetings. Colin evidently got the message and answered the call. Brave little guy!
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QueenMaab - Aug 8, 2007 3:05 pm (#106 of 127)
of the fae
Yes, but... in chapter thirty-one 'The Battle of Hogwarts'... "half of Gryffindor remained in their seats, necessitating Professor McGonagall's descent from the teachers' platform to chivvy the underage on their way. 'Absolutely not, Creevey, go! And you Peakes!'"
So it seems like Colin was in attendance at Hogwarts at that time. I do research such things before I post them.
And I'm so glad to hear that Snape is getting (or received) a headmaster's portrait.
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Choices - Aug 8, 2007 4:01 pm (#107 of 127)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Oh QueenMaab, you are right. I am about half-way through my reread, so have not gotten to the battle yet. I guess I thought that Colin wouldn't be at Hogwarts because he is Muggle born and it would be too dangerous. I should have checked. I thought he got called by the coin Hermione had used for the DA members. Evidently he appeared to leave Hogwarts, but sneaked back in to fight.
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mollis - Aug 9, 2007 1:56 pm (#108 of 127)
Actually, QueenMaab, I think Choices was right. In the chapter that you sited, the Weaslys are all sitting at the Gryfindor table as well, because Harry goes up to them to ask if they know where Ron and Hermione are. It seems that everyone who returned through the ROR to fight joined the current students in the Great Hall and, naturally, joined their (former) house tables.
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Choices - Aug 9, 2007 4:28 pm (#109 of 127)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Yes, Colin was there at the Gryffindor table and McGonagall told him and (Jimmy?) Peakes to leave because they were underage. Later in the "Forest Again" chapter, it says Colin must have sneaked back in to fight and was killed.
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QueenMaab - Aug 10, 2007 1:09 am (#110 of 127)
of the fae
Ok.... I surrender.
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Madam Pince - Aug 14, 2007 7:17 pm (#111 of 127)
The eyes are the windows to the soul...
Besides, JKR said it in the webchat. She said that the DAs all still had their coins as sort of "honor badges"; she said she liked to imagine Prof. Longbottom showing his to his admiring students.
Roseweasley: Why was colin creavey still a student at hogwarts when he was muggleborn surely he would have been locked up and interogated, not allowed back to school therefore, he shouldnt have died
J.K. Rowling: Colin wasn’t a student. He sneaked back with the rest of the DA, along with Fred, George and the rest. He ought not to have stayed behind when McGonagall told him to leave, but alas – he did.
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Vox Gerbilis, I'm with you on the Tonks decision. Like you, I was never very attached to the Tonks character -- never really took the time to analyze why, but after the end of DH it was confirmed for me. Although everyone makes good points about how she and Lupin would know that Teddy would be cared for by somebody, I still have to believe that in the greater scheme of things it would've been more important for her to be there to protect her son rather than join in the Battle of Hogwarts. For all she knew, Voldemort would still win, whether she was there and got killed or not. And she would have to expect that Andromeda would be high on the hit list, being married to Ted and all. So essentially she would be leaving her infant son with someone who is not what I would call in a safe position. (Not that she would be any safer than Andromeda in that situation, either, but still... Teddy is her responsibility.) That's just me, though, and I know others might make a different call.
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I'll bet Teddy got a toy broom on his first birthday.--Soul Search
Awwwwwww.... ***sniff, sniff...***
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One more webchat thing, earlier someone asked on this thread about Snape's portrait at Hogwarts. JKR said he didn't have one originally, but she liked to hope that Harry would've remedied that situation:
Laura Trego: Was the absence of snapes portrait in the headmasters office in the last scene innocent or deliberate
J.K. Rowling: It was deliberate. Snape had effectively abandoned his post before dying, so he had not merited inclusion in these august circles.
J.K. Rowling: However, I like to think that Harry would be instrumental in ensuring that Snape’s portrait would appear there in due course.
Edit: Man, this is getting creepy. Here I am post #111. Earlier on some thread I posted at 4:44. I keep looking at digital clocks all summer long catching them at 11:11 or 2:22 or something. I am starting to seriously worry what is up with that...
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Die Zimtzicke - Aug 14, 2007 9:24 pm (#112 of 127)
The DA were not very honorable when most of them were not keeping their coins handy a book earlier. Only Luna and Neville had honor then, and they were made out to be rather pathetic. Once Harry is a big hero again, then everyone that was ever involved with him digs out their coins? That is kind of low to me.
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Madam Pince - Aug 14, 2007 9:48 pm (#113 of 127)
The eyes are the windows to the soul...
I took it that nobody else in the DA kept their coins handy in HBP because they had no way of realizing they would ever be needed again. The DA wasn't "active" anymore, in the sense that regular meetings had been discontinued. Everybody moved on to other things -- sports, boyfriends/girlfriends, career plans, NEWTS, etc.
I interpreted Luna and Neville as having kept them because Luna and Neville are sort of the...ummm... what's the word here... not really "outcasts" but maybe not really the most popular students at Hogwarts? They didn't really have a lot of extracurriculars and interests and friendships outside the DA, so naturally they would keep their coins closer as a reminder of something they "belonged" to. Does that make sense?
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Neville Longbottom - Aug 15, 2007 12:39 am (#114 of 127)
The DA were not very honorable when most of them were not keeping their coins handy a book earlier.
The DA didn't have the coins handy, because Harry himself basically abandoned the group for a whole year. Why should the others expect, that suddenly there was some reason to check their coins, after nearly a year. The moment Voldemort took over, at a time, where hardly anyone could profit from being in close contact with Harry, the DA members started to fight again.
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TomProffitt - Aug 15, 2007 4:47 am (#115 of 127)
Bullheaded empiricist
Having served in the Military I have a different view on the Tonks thing. When you train to do a job for years you begin to feel an obligation to do what you've been trained to do. When the final battle came along I'm sure Tonks felt something along the lines of "This is what the Ministry trained me to do ever since I got out of Hogwarts. I owe it to them, the Wizarding World, Mad Eye and all my other fallen comrades, to repay that trust by using the skills they gave me in the final battle." Was she torn at the prospect of leaving little Teddy? Of course she was, but she had made other commitments as well. Tonks was honoring a choice she had made years before and would have felt like a traitor had she not showed up for the battle.
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Madam Pince - Aug 15, 2007 11:38 am (#116 of 127)
The eyes are the windows to the soul...
Good point, Neville. I don't remember anybody saying at the end of OotP "Oh and by the way, keep these coins handy just in case we ever need to get in touch with you again in some sort of war-situation." I wouldn't call them "not honorable" just because they didn't think ahead -- maybe not as astute as they might've been, but I wouldn't associate honor with it.
It's sort of like Harry with Sirius' mirror -- look how long it took him to remember to try to use it. Maybe the DA members (less Luna and Neville, of course) never even thought to try their coins until things started getting rough. Unfortunately, it led to some of their deaths. But very honorable deaths.
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Allison R - Aug 15, 2007 6:54 pm (#117 of 127)
Saying goodbye to a friend: We love you, Dusty Bunny. You will be missed.
I'm not sure this is the best place to post this, but it's the closest related folder I could come up with...
I just finished a re-read of OotP and was really touched at the end of the book by the final scene at King's Cross. Harry has just lost Sirius and is still reeling from the death of Cedric the year previous. He gets off the train expecting to see only the Dursley's and finds a welcoming committe consisting of Mr and Mrs Weasley, Fred, George, Mad-Eye, Lupin, and Tonks.
Here is a group of adults who love him. They are essentially sending him a very strong message that even though Sirius is gone-- the closest thing to a parental figure he has any memory of-- here is a collective body who claim him, who tell the Dursely's in no uncertain terms that they will be held accountable for how they treat him, and that they will love and look after him and look out for his welfare. The message was so strong and clear to me that it really touched me-- and then it hit me:
Of the seven adults on that platform, only three of them will survive the final book. It made my heart hurt for Harry, YK? The enormity of his personal losses really touches me.
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NFla Barbara - Aug 15, 2007 8:23 pm (#118 of 127)
I have been going back and looking at lots of things in OoP with a new eye -- that scene certainly feels a lot different now that we know what happened, and underscores how painful these losses are.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 15, 2007 11:16 pm (#119 of 127)
The deaths of the fifty Hogwarts students and Colin Creevey'a death remind me of the Los Niños Héroes or the Boy Heroes of Chapultepec Castle who were six army cadets that died defending the citadel of Chapultepec Castle during the Battle of Chapultepec during the Mexican-American War.
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Remi - Aug 17, 2007 5:02 pm (#120 of 127)
Dumbledore's woman through and through
I just finished listening to Jim Dale's audio version of DH (have read it twice already), and I realized that we don't know what happened to Dean Thomas - I now fear that he is among the 50 people who are lying dead in the Great Hall.
We last see Dean fighting Dolohov - the DE who killed Lupin - as Harry, Ron & Hermione are trying to get to the Whomping Willow. Dolohov is next seen with Yaxley, unknowingly leading Harry to Voldemort in the Forest. There is no mention of Dean at the end.
It looks like I have another person to mourn.
And this might not be the right thread, but when Phineas Nigellus said, "And let it be noted that Slytherin House played its part!" what does he mean? The only Slytherin I see fighting on Harry's side was Slughorn. Did any Slytherin student die besides Crabbe?
[Allison - I'm also devastated by all Harry's losses.]
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kingdolohov - Aug 17, 2007 5:43 pm (#121 of 127)
Remi, I do not think that my namesake killed Dean, at least at that point. "Dean made the most of the Death Eater's momentary distraction, knocking him out with a Stunning Spell; Dolohov attempted to retaliate and Parvati shot a Body-Bind curse at him" (p. 645 American). Dolohov obviously was freed by another DE.
Greyback was hit by Hermione and then by Trelawney's ball, and he later ended up in the clearing with the other DEs and got taken down in the Great Hall fight. Apparently the Order/DA/school did a lousy job of taking care of defeated DEs. If they weren't prepared to kill they could have at least locked them up somewhere.
As for other Slytherins being involved, Phineas probably heard about Snape. It sounded like all of the portraits crammed into the portraits around the fights, so he very well might have witnessed the Harry-Voldemort dialogue, where Harry mentioned Snape helping Dumbledore. If any other Slytherin students died, it wasn't while defending the school; Voldemort says the rest of them (not Malfoy) joined him.
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Remi - Aug 17, 2007 5:52 pm (#122 of 127)
Dumbledore's woman through and through
Thanks, King
How could I have forgotten about SNAPE! Yes, Phineas has reason to celebrate Slytherins part in Voldemort's defeat. - - - - - - - - - -
Choices - Aug 17, 2007 6:15 pm (#123 of 127)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
And we can't forget Regulus' (also a relative of Phineas and a Slytherin) contribution to the defeat of Voldemort. It may have happened a while ago, but every notch out of the tree trunk makes it easier to fall.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 17, 2007 9:44 pm (#124 of 127)
Also Crabbe's last act was to destroy the diadem albeit inadvertently and unintentionally but, he did so nonetheless.
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Madam Pince - Aug 17, 2007 11:42 pm (#125 of 127)
The eyes are the windows to the soul...
Boy, that's really something, isn't it? Dumb old thick-headed Crabbe -- destroying one of Lord Voldemort's horcruxes. Something that Dumbledore, the world's most powerful wizard, had been trying to do for ages. Wow. Who'd have thought that? That's one that never made it onto any "Predictions" list, I'll bet!
I'd venture to say that his death is just about the most gruesome in the whole series, actually. Being burned to a crisp... ***shudder***
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Luna Logic - Aug 18, 2007 2:44 am (#126 of 127)
from the other side (of the Channel)
Kingdolohov: Apparently the Order/DA/school did a lousy job of taking care of defeated DEs. If they weren't prepared to kill they could have at least locked them up somewhere.
I agree with that. What a strange war, with no killing or safe binding of enemies, thus, finally, more friends killed when those enemies awake to their senses again.
One exception, McGonagall with the Carrows.
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Chemyst - Aug 18, 2007 8:16 pm (#127 of 127)
"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Remi asks in #120 …when Phineas Nigellus said, "And let it be noted that Slytherin House played its part!" what does he mean? The only Slytherin I see fighting on Harry's side was Slughorn.
kingdolohov adds Snape
Choices adds Regulus
Nathan adds Crabbe
Let's not forget the Family Malfoy--
Draco Malfoy - does not want to give Bellatrix a positive ID on the trio at the Malfoy Manor, and inadvertently paved the way for Harry to become master of the Elder Wand.
Lucius Malfoy - unwittingly played key roles in the destruction of the diary horcrux, the loss of the prophecy, and gave (albeit forced) Voldemort an inferior wand.
Narcissa Black Malfoy (presumed to be Slytherin based on Slughorn's comment that all Blacks except Sirius had been in his House) does not give Harry away.
Would you count the loyalties of Kreacher? He lead the house elves into battle with knives and kitchen utensils in the name of Regulus. True, he was never sorted into Slytherin, but was fighting "in the name of Regulus," a Slytherin.
And being a true Slytherin means looking out for oneself – so I think Phineas Nigelus Black's portrait was counting his own efforts too! He did several things; gathering information for Snape, giving the tip that allowed Harry to eventually get Gryffindor's sword, and occasionally helping Hermione deal with her loneliness during Ron's absence, keeping their morale up.
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