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Horcrux: ...Voldemort´s wand
Elanor Sat May 28, 2011 12:17 pm
Horcrux: ...Voldemort´s wand
theshadow07 - Jul 13, 2006 12:49 pm
Edited by Kip Carter Sep 8, 2006 1:57 am
Well, I have been thinking about it, we really don´t know what kind of things can or can´t be a horcrux. But, if a wand can become a horcrux, Voldemort´s wand could it be one of the missing horcruxes "Something of griffindor": the wand of Voldemort has something of griffindor, because inside of the wand there is a feather of Fawkes. The wand of Voldemort dissapear when Voldemort "died" and return when Voldemort gets a new body. All this time it was hidden. And at first sight it seems that someone took it from Godric´s hollow the night that Voldemort was "killed". But this death eather had to have some reason to do it. What do you think, this is only a thought...
This topic serves as an archive of a thread from the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum as hosted on World Crossing which ceased operation on April 15, 2011. Elanor
theshadow07 - Jul 13, 2006 12:49 pm
Edited by Kip Carter Sep 8, 2006 1:57 am
Well, I have been thinking about it, we really don´t know what kind of things can or can´t be a horcrux. But, if a wand can become a horcrux, Voldemort´s wand could it be one of the missing horcruxes "Something of griffindor": the wand of Voldemort has something of griffindor, because inside of the wand there is a feather of Fawkes. The wand of Voldemort dissapear when Voldemort "died" and return when Voldemort gets a new body. All this time it was hidden. And at first sight it seems that someone took it from Godric´s hollow the night that Voldemort was "killed". But this death eather had to have some reason to do it. What do you think, this is only a thought...
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Horcrux: ...Voldemort´s wand (Post 1 to 52)
Elanor Sat May 28, 2011 12:19 pm
deletedaccount - Jul 13, 2006 12:56 pm (#1 of 52)
I don't think the wand is a horcrux. You'd probably have to use the wand to make one though.
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Soul Search - Jul 13, 2006 1:30 pm (#2 of 52)
Good pickup, theshadow07. I think Voldmeort's wand as a horcrux is a new idea; at least, I haven't heard it before. And it does meet the basic criteria.
We need some more canon hints, though. Needs some thought.
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Choices - Jul 13, 2006 6:08 pm (#3 of 52)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I definitely think Voldemort's wand is not a Horcrux. Nor do we have any canon evidence that Fawkes at one time (a thousand years ago) belonged to Gryffindor. The tail feathers in the brother wands came from an incarnation of Fawkes during the time he was with Dumbledore. We have no information about Fawkes or his whereabouts before he chose to be with Dumbledore. I think Voldemort's wand is too "out in public" and we know Horcruxes, for the most part, are secret and carefully hidden - not waved around in front of people.
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Tom Marvolo Riddleton - Jul 13, 2006 9:49 pm (#4 of 52)
I think Voldemort's wand is too "out in public" and we know Horcruxes, for the most part, are secret and carefully hidden - not waved around in front of people. -Choices
Well, I'll admit that we know of Horcruxes that were hidden, but it wouldn't seem entirely unlikely to assume that Voldemort would have thought a Horcrux safe in his wand. I imagine that Voldemort would be confident enough in his own abilities to believe that nobody could possibly defeat him and deprive him of his wand, and thus would not see the need to hide it away. Also, to add to the wand as a Horcrux idea, could perhaps Voldemort believe that the wand's having a part of his soul in it strengthen it's attachment to him, perhaps even making him more powerful (at least in his mind)?
As for not having cannon evidence that the Dark Lord's wand might be a Horcrux, would we? I don't doubt that JKR might not have put anything in to suggest that the wand was a Horcrux, just to have something unexpected come up in the last book... Harry Potter and the Phoenix-Tailed Horcrux...
Just to add something of my own to this theory, I believe DD said that Voldemort would use things of significance for him in which to create a Horcrux; besides the fact that Voldemort's wand may be considered to be his greatest material possession, would it be possible that the wand also stands as a symbolic record of every murder Voldemort has ever committed, an idea which I don't doubt Voldemort would very much like. The reason I bring this up is I'm curious as to why Voldemort's wand only spat out the shadows of those he had most recently killed; why not show the Imperius Curse and the Cruciatus Curse, and perhaps even a silver hand should have formed, as these were all spells casted by Voldemort that came after he murdered James and Lily Potter. Wouldn't Priori Incantatem cause these things to come out also? Just a thought...
Very fun idea theshadow07. I like picturing the final battle between Harry and Voldemort involving Harry needing to destroy Voldemort's wand before killing him. Expelliarmus would not be enough unless Harry got to the wand first after it was casted away from it's owner, so one of Harry's best Dueling tools would perhaps be null and void. So, perhaps, would Harry's own wand; if Voldemort's wand were a Horcrux, and Harry had to destroy it, it would be very difficult for him to do considering that brother wands do not like to fight each other; it would be a powerful advantage to the Dark Lord, which I don't doubt he would very much enjoy, and would make the final battle very entertaining.
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Solitaire - Jul 13, 2006 11:11 pm (#5 of 52)
Choices is correct ... some have speculated that Fawkes belonged to GG (I think he did), but there is no canon evidence to substantiate this.
Solitaire
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Regan of Gong - Jul 13, 2006 11:59 pm (#6 of 52)
Self declared doctor of everything.
TMR makes some good points. I think the second part of your post has already been answered by JKR, I thought it said in GoF that a silver hand came out of the wand. Oh well, I'm sure someone knows the answer to this.
His wand being a symbol of every murder he has committed is something that I don't doubt he would like, and Big V being so arrogant as to think no-one could ever take it from him is very good.
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Tom Marvolo Riddleton - Jul 14, 2006 12:35 am (#7 of 52)
So very sorry, I am. Thank you for pointing out that a smoky hand did indeed fly out of the wand tip, Regan of Gong. I should pay more attention to what I read.
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Regan of Gong - Jul 14, 2006 3:39 am (#8 of 52)
Self declared doctor of everything.
Oh, don't be sorry...I just thought it happened, so I posted it. Other than that, it was an excellent post. Hope you feel loved/noticed/acknowledged now
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Choices - Jul 14, 2006 10:31 am (#9 of 52)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
TMR - "The reason I bring this up is I'm curious as to why Voldemort's wand only spat out the shadows of those he had most recently killed; why not show the Imperius Curse and the Cruciatus Curse, and perhaps even a silver hand should have formed"
"At once, Voldemort's wand began to emit echoing screams of pain....then---Voldemort's red eyes widened with shock---a dense, smoky hand flew out of the tip of it and vanished....the ghost of the hand he had made Wormtail....more shouts of pain....."
So, the shouts of pain are evidence of the torture and suffering Voldemort caused with his wand, in addition to the murders.
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Soul Search - Jul 14, 2006 11:27 am (#10 of 52)
Tom Marvolo Riddleton, good thoughts.
My read on the "brother wands" in GoF was a hint that Harry's defeat of Voldemort would not involve wands.
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TheSaint - Jul 14, 2006 7:46 pm (#11 of 52)
DD did say that what happened in the graveyard was 'priori incantem,' so it seems every spell cast by the wand should appear? Shouldn't it?
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Solitaire - Jul 14, 2006 11:05 pm (#12 of 52)
Near the end of Chapter 36 of GoF, Harry has been explaining what happened in the graveyard and tells Dumbledore and Sirius of the shadows that emerged from Voldemort's wand.
"The last murders the wand performed," said Dumbledore, nodding. "In reverse order. More would have appeared, of course, had you maintained the connection."
Solitaire
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TheSaint - Jul 15, 2006 3:58 am (#13 of 52)
But more than murder's showed up, unless we are calling the amputation of the hand a murder. No way we could call the Crucio's thrown at Harry murders.
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haymoni - Jul 15, 2006 4:22 am (#14 of 52)
Maybe in all the chaos of "people" coming out of the wand, Harry just didn't notice the Crucios, the Lumoses, the Make-A-Fire-In-The-Fireplace Spells, etc.
People would be a lot easier to identify.
The boy WAS a bit busy.
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Solitaire - Jul 15, 2006 6:45 am (#15 of 52)
Could be ... Remember what happened when Amos Diggory found Winky holding Harry's wand after the Dark Mark had been fired up at the QWC. Winky was denying having fired the Mark.
"Well, we'll soon see," growled Mr. Diggory, looking unimpressed. "There's a simple way of discovering the last spell a wand performed, elf, did you know that?"
Winky trembled and shook her head frantically, her ears flapping, as Mr. Diggory raised his own wand again and placed it tip to tip with Harry's.
"Prior Incantato!" roared Mr. Diggory.
Harry heard Hermione gasp, horrified, as a gigantic serpent-tongued skull erupted from the point where the two wands met, but it was a mere shadow of the green skull high above them; it looked as though it were made of thick gray smoke: the ghost of a spell.
It sounds like spells come out, as well. Hm ...
Solitaire
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Good Evans - Jul 15, 2006 8:01 am (#16 of 52)
Practically perfect in every way
A little off topic but still Voldemorts wand
I have often been interested in the idea that "brother" wands don't work properly against each other, and we saw in the graveyard what this could indeed mean. But more than that, if forced to do battle, what residual effect on the wand could this have (if anything). I wonder if there will be final revelations, have the wands learned something about each other? Have they absorbed a little of each other having been forced to do battle?
I took the warning / explanation in GOF to mean that there could be far more to the ramifactions of making brother wands do battle, than the wonderous effect that helped Harry at the end of GOF. Indeed I wonder if there is more that happened that night?
I think there is real possibility that the wands will not do battle again (The wand chooses the wizard, the wand seems to have some level of conciousness of its own?) even if forced, so yes, it may be that Harry has to finish off Voldy without his wand. I dont necessarily think a fistfight will occur (queensbury rules anyone?) but maybe it will have to come down to somthing else???????
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TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 15, 2006 10:25 am (#17 of 52)
"Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking"
If Harry had maintained the connection,would LV himself have come out. It was his AK from his wand that killed his body.
...toddles off with a headache now...
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Choices - Jul 15, 2006 10:31 am (#18 of 52)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Saint - "But more than murder's showed up..."
I think Dumbledore only mentioned the "murders" because those were most important. The "screams" that issued from the wand were not identifiable, but the "murders" were recognizable as known people.....Cedric, the old man, the Potters, Bertha, etc. and they were the ones who spoke to Harry, encouraging him and giving him advice.
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Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 15, 2006 10:43 am (#19 of 52)
TwinklingBlueEyes - if Mouldy Voldies body was going to appear from the wand it would have done so before Harry's mum.
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TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 15, 2006 12:34 pm (#20 of 52)
"Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking"
Please ignore the ring...
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Choices - Jul 15, 2006 12:37 pm (#21 of 52)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
There, there, TBE - it happens to all of us. **offers TBE a calming draught** :-)
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TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 15, 2006 12:49 pm (#22 of 52)
"Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking"
Care to join me Choices?
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Choices - Jul 15, 2006 1:04 pm (#23 of 52)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Scoot over and make mine a tall one. Thanks! LOL
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Solitaire - Jul 15, 2006 8:49 pm (#24 of 52)
Here ... I have a large cauldronful of Wit-Sharpening Potion. Anyone care for a draught?
Solitaire
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Tom Marvolo Riddleton - Jul 15, 2006 8:50 pm (#25 of 52)
All right, I had a revelation, and if this is anybody else's idea already, or you hate it, excuse me.
The prophecy makes no sense, because if it were true that neither could live while the other survives (something like that), then neither would be alive. Except, Voldi isn't really alive, is he? I mean, he's not mortal, thus can't die, yet, so maybe that means that Harry will have to destroy the last Horcrux and Voldi in the same swift move. This means that the last Horcrux will have to be with Voldi in the end, meaning it could indeed be his own wand. All right, that's it.
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Good Evans - Jul 16, 2006 7:14 am (#26 of 52)
Practically perfect in every way
good thought TBE, maybe indeed this is why it was "time" to break the connection the other "ghosts" could feel the imminent arrival of the evil one!!!! I wonder what happened to him - a crossed wire, sounds awful to be "lost in the connection"
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Die Zimtzicke - Jul 31, 2006 8:08 pm (#27 of 52)
I do not think it's Voldemort's wand. He trusted Peter with his wand, but he doesn't trust Peter with his life. He knows Peter only is around him out of fear. At least Lucius was smart, and even he ruined a horcrux. And I don't know how he made the wand itself into one if you need the wand to make them in the first place.
I don't think the last horcrux has to be with Voldie at all, although I concede it could. I think he still has CONTROL of a last bit of soul somehow.
If it's the wand I will be surprised and horribly disappointed.
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painting sheila - Aug 5, 2006 8:01 pm (#28 of 52)
Doing one of the things I love best . . .
I think the last part of the horcruxes will be the one remaining in Voldedmort - right? He has split his soul 7 times but the last part is still in his body, so after destroying the 6 other parts of his soul - the last one will be destroyed when Harry faces Voldie to kill him.
I think there will be one in plain sight. One that everyone has overlooked because it is so much in the open. Can anyone think of something like that?
I think it would be great if Ron stumbled on it and destroyed it. He is always so close to the truth - but not quick there. He must be a powerful wizard - Dobby said so. I think he could do it.
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Choices - Aug 6, 2006 9:49 am (#29 of 52)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I think the Hufflepuff cup is in the trophy case at Hogwarts and Ron did spend a good bit of time polishing the silver cups and trophies when he did detention. It is in plain sight and could turn out to be a Horcrux.
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Die Zimtzicke - Aug 6, 2006 5:25 pm (#30 of 52)
Weren't those cups in the trophy case all engraved? Could you alter a horcrux's appearance like that? I thought the cup was a regular sized cup and the trophies were larger.
But I still definitely do not think it's the wand.
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Choices - Aug 6, 2006 5:50 pm (#31 of 52)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I don't remember anything about the cups being engraved in the book, although I am sure most of them were - but wouldn't it be easy to place a cup engraved with a badger into one of the trophy cases - it would hardly be noticed among all the others. We are told the trophy room is never locked, so it would be easy to slip in unnoticed.
"The crystal trophy cases glimmered where the moonlight caught them. Cups, shields, plates, and statues winked silver and gold in the darkness." COS ch.9
In HBP the cup is described as "a small golden cup with two finely wrought handles" and on it was engraved a badger. Not all cups or trophies are large, some are small, so I think it could easily fit in among the other things in the trophy cases and not be noticed....unless one was specifically looking for such a cup.
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Solitaire - Aug 6, 2006 9:06 pm (#32 of 52)
Well, Harry has now seen the cup, so he should be able to recognize it ... I hope!
Solitaire
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painting sheila - Aug 9, 2006 7:50 pm (#33 of 52)
Doing one of the things I love best . . .
Are we guessing that the cup in the trophy case is the one from Hepzibah's house? Do we know if she has any family? She says her family couldn't "wait to get their hands on " it.
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Choices - Aug 10, 2006 6:35 pm (#34 of 52)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Yes, Hepzibah has family, but Tom Riddle made off with the cup and the locket and as far as we know the family has not recovered either item. I do think he turned the cup into a Horcrux and hid it carefully (but in plain view) in the Trophy Case at Hogwarts. The locket Horcrux and the cup will more than likely come to light in the final book.
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Die Zimtzicke - Aug 10, 2006 8:50 pm (#35 of 52)
I think Zacharias Smith is related to her, and that he might matter, and the trio will be a bit sorry that they weren't more reasonable to him, when they need him for information later.
Doesn't anyone else think that's possible? I know Smith is a common name, but why bring him up so many times? Jo could have had Ginny run over anyone that didn't completely support Harry. Why a Smith?
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Mediwitch - Aug 10, 2006 9:03 pm (#36 of 52)
"We could have all been killed-- or worse, expelled!"
I agree with you on this one, Die Zimtzicke, especially after the Mark Evans fiasco. If Smith was another Evans, she'd have let him quietly disappear in HBP, and not bring him back to our attention with Ginny smashing into him at the commentator's podium. (OR she could have changed Hepzibah's surname, as we hadn't yet met her!)
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Die Zimtzicke - Aug 10, 2006 9:20 pm (#37 of 52)
Smoochies to Mediwitch. That's exactly what I mean! After the Mark Evans thing, Jo should have known better to draw attention to someone with the same name as someone else.
Plot bunny example: Zacharias is moping around the trophy room, scowling at the Quidditch cup that Gryffinor won AGAIN and suddenly he thinks he sees his Great-Auntie's old cup in the case!
See how easy that is? There's so many ways you could work that in, it boggles the mind. Mind you, I'm not saying I am sure the cup is there, but I do concede it could be.
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Katrina Nadja Romanoff - Dec 22, 2006 10:47 am (#38 of 52)
I had a post bringin'the same thing up, but I think someone put it down, I can't find it anymore. Hepzibah and Zacharias are both biblical name of a married couple, they were Jesus'aunt and oncle. So they're probably from the same family and there's a naming tradition going on. So..."Zacharias smith" = "The heir of hufflepuff"
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spinowner - Dec 26, 2006 8:57 am (#39 of 52)
I have to reread the graveyard scene. The heading of this thread made it occur to me that if Harry himself is a horcrux V's wand should have released a shadow of that bit of magic before his parents' shadows emerged from the wand. I would think someone else has made that point already on another thread but I'll include it here since I happened to think of it.
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TheSaint - Dec 27, 2006 9:18 am (#40 of 52)
Does seem suspicious. The spell that started it all does not even appear in the line up. Wonder if it is a case of failed magic does not show, or the person blamed did not cast the spell at all. Opens whole other avenues to explore.
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painting sheila - Dec 29, 2006 9:48 pm (#41 of 52)
Doing one of the things I love best . . .
I think I remember Jo saying some where that if the connection between Harry's and LV's wand had contunued, other shadow's of those he had killed would have appeared.
Maybe it was their choice whether or not to show themselves?
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TheSaint - Dec 30, 2006 3:23 am (#42 of 52)
But no one died with that AK. Just Volde's body. I had to wonder, as all the crucios showed, the hand showed, so why not that specific AK?
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Solitaire - Dec 30, 2006 2:52 pm (#43 of 52)
Did the crucios show? I guess I'll have to do some rereading, as I don't remember that. And yes, Sheila, Dumbledore did say that, had the connection been maintained, more shadows would undoubtedly have appeared. I gather from the use of the Priori Incantatem spell back at the QWC that the spell forces previous spells to be regurgitated from the wand. I didn't get the idea that the spells had any choice about reappearing or not. I would assume that the spell works the same way with the brother wands, unless we are told that there is a variation.
Solitaire
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Choices - Dec 30, 2006 6:26 pm (#44 of 52)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I remember there were "screams" that came out of Voldemort's wand - I figure those were the "crucios".
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painting sheila - Dec 31, 2006 12:50 am (#45 of 52)
Doing one of the things I love best . . .
OH! Choices - I bet you are right. The people wouldn't show up because they weren't part of the spell - but the pain was. That is what was spewed out - the pain!
Good catch!
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TheSaint - Dec 31, 2006 2:08 am (#46 of 52)
So why doesn't the scar-making, Volde-body-killing AK show up? If the crucios show as pain, does the AK only show as murdered souls...and since no souls were murdered, nothing shows? I was under the impression PI is all spells in reverse order.
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Laura W - Dec 31, 2006 5:28 am (#47 of 52)
"I was under the impression PI is all spells in reverse order."
I think you're right, Saint. The way Dumbledore explains it anyway. "One of the wands will force the other to regurgitate spells it has performed - in reverse. The most recent first ... and then those which preceded it..." (GoF, chapter 36, p.605, Raincoast). Sounds like *all* spells the wand performed if I'm reading that correctly.
And DD goes on to explain, "More would have appeared, of course, had you maintained the connection" (p.606, Raincoast). That second quote *might* answer your question, "So why doesn't the scar-making, Volde-body-killing AK show up?"
Laura
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Soul Search - Dec 31, 2006 9:31 am (#48 of 52)
We saw spells coming out of Voldemort's wand, but not Harry's. Shouldn't spells have come out of both wands?
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TheSaint - Dec 31, 2006 9:57 am (#49 of 52)
But if the spells were in reverse order, The missing AK should be between his mother and Bertha Jorkin, not somewhere after his father. Unless...
The spells came out of the wand that lost the battle of the wills with the ball on the connecting string.
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Choices - Dec 31, 2006 12:01 pm (#50 of 52)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I think it is because the AK did not kill all of Voldemort...it only killed his body. Then he got a new body to house his tattered soul and he is standing there holding his wand as the shades come out. It would be impossible for his shade to come out since there is no shade - he didn't completely die and he didn't cross over. The AK fired at Harry failed to "properly" kill anyone, so it is not represented in what comes out of the wand.
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Laura W - Dec 31, 2006 4:46 pm (#51 of 52)
Soul Search, Dumbledore specifically says "One of the wands will force the other to regurgitate spells it has performed." It seems that means that one brother wand forces the other - somehow - to release the spells. Not that *both* wands will release their spells.
Maybe, having the additional strength of Fawkes' song (spirit?) in this case, it was Harry's wand that was able to force the spells out of Tom's instead of the other way around. Just guessing on that, though.
"But if the spells were in reverse order, The missing AK should be between his mother and Bertha Jorkin, not somewhere after his father." (TheSaint)
Well, we all know that Jo has a bit of a wand order problem. (wink)
Laura
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xray - Jan 23, 2007 12:18 pm (#52 of 52)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
TheSaint said:
So why doesn't the scar-making, Volde-body-killing AK show up? If the crucios show as pain, does the AK only show as murdered souls...and since no souls were murdered, nothing shows? I was under the impression PI is all spells in reverse order.
This does make sense. I've discussed this elsewhere and believe that spells that didn't work don't show up, e.g. Voldemort's crucio spell that missed and hit the gravestone instead. And since AK didn't actually work completely (his soul wasn't completely murdered), he didn't show up.
Priori Incantatem revealed the spells in this order:
Screams of Pain (Crucio)
Smoky hand (Wormtail's)
More shouts of pain (Crucio)
Cedric Diggory
More screams of pain
Frank Bryce
Bertha Jorkins
Lilly Potter*
James Potter*
* Editors incorrectly reversed this order in early US editions.
I do think Lord Voldemort's wand is a horcrux created using a different wand, perhaps Bertha Jorkins' or Wormtail's wand.
I don't think the wand is a horcrux. You'd probably have to use the wand to make one though.
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Soul Search - Jul 13, 2006 1:30 pm (#2 of 52)
Good pickup, theshadow07. I think Voldmeort's wand as a horcrux is a new idea; at least, I haven't heard it before. And it does meet the basic criteria.
We need some more canon hints, though. Needs some thought.
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Choices - Jul 13, 2006 6:08 pm (#3 of 52)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I definitely think Voldemort's wand is not a Horcrux. Nor do we have any canon evidence that Fawkes at one time (a thousand years ago) belonged to Gryffindor. The tail feathers in the brother wands came from an incarnation of Fawkes during the time he was with Dumbledore. We have no information about Fawkes or his whereabouts before he chose to be with Dumbledore. I think Voldemort's wand is too "out in public" and we know Horcruxes, for the most part, are secret and carefully hidden - not waved around in front of people.
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Tom Marvolo Riddleton - Jul 13, 2006 9:49 pm (#4 of 52)
I think Voldemort's wand is too "out in public" and we know Horcruxes, for the most part, are secret and carefully hidden - not waved around in front of people. -Choices
Well, I'll admit that we know of Horcruxes that were hidden, but it wouldn't seem entirely unlikely to assume that Voldemort would have thought a Horcrux safe in his wand. I imagine that Voldemort would be confident enough in his own abilities to believe that nobody could possibly defeat him and deprive him of his wand, and thus would not see the need to hide it away. Also, to add to the wand as a Horcrux idea, could perhaps Voldemort believe that the wand's having a part of his soul in it strengthen it's attachment to him, perhaps even making him more powerful (at least in his mind)?
As for not having cannon evidence that the Dark Lord's wand might be a Horcrux, would we? I don't doubt that JKR might not have put anything in to suggest that the wand was a Horcrux, just to have something unexpected come up in the last book... Harry Potter and the Phoenix-Tailed Horcrux...
Just to add something of my own to this theory, I believe DD said that Voldemort would use things of significance for him in which to create a Horcrux; besides the fact that Voldemort's wand may be considered to be his greatest material possession, would it be possible that the wand also stands as a symbolic record of every murder Voldemort has ever committed, an idea which I don't doubt Voldemort would very much like. The reason I bring this up is I'm curious as to why Voldemort's wand only spat out the shadows of those he had most recently killed; why not show the Imperius Curse and the Cruciatus Curse, and perhaps even a silver hand should have formed, as these were all spells casted by Voldemort that came after he murdered James and Lily Potter. Wouldn't Priori Incantatem cause these things to come out also? Just a thought...
Very fun idea theshadow07. I like picturing the final battle between Harry and Voldemort involving Harry needing to destroy Voldemort's wand before killing him. Expelliarmus would not be enough unless Harry got to the wand first after it was casted away from it's owner, so one of Harry's best Dueling tools would perhaps be null and void. So, perhaps, would Harry's own wand; if Voldemort's wand were a Horcrux, and Harry had to destroy it, it would be very difficult for him to do considering that brother wands do not like to fight each other; it would be a powerful advantage to the Dark Lord, which I don't doubt he would very much enjoy, and would make the final battle very entertaining.
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Solitaire - Jul 13, 2006 11:11 pm (#5 of 52)
Choices is correct ... some have speculated that Fawkes belonged to GG (I think he did), but there is no canon evidence to substantiate this.
Solitaire
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Regan of Gong - Jul 13, 2006 11:59 pm (#6 of 52)
Self declared doctor of everything.
TMR makes some good points. I think the second part of your post has already been answered by JKR, I thought it said in GoF that a silver hand came out of the wand. Oh well, I'm sure someone knows the answer to this.
His wand being a symbol of every murder he has committed is something that I don't doubt he would like, and Big V being so arrogant as to think no-one could ever take it from him is very good.
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Tom Marvolo Riddleton - Jul 14, 2006 12:35 am (#7 of 52)
So very sorry, I am. Thank you for pointing out that a smoky hand did indeed fly out of the wand tip, Regan of Gong. I should pay more attention to what I read.
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Regan of Gong - Jul 14, 2006 3:39 am (#8 of 52)
Self declared doctor of everything.
Oh, don't be sorry...I just thought it happened, so I posted it. Other than that, it was an excellent post. Hope you feel loved/noticed/acknowledged now
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Choices - Jul 14, 2006 10:31 am (#9 of 52)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
TMR - "The reason I bring this up is I'm curious as to why Voldemort's wand only spat out the shadows of those he had most recently killed; why not show the Imperius Curse and the Cruciatus Curse, and perhaps even a silver hand should have formed"
"At once, Voldemort's wand began to emit echoing screams of pain....then---Voldemort's red eyes widened with shock---a dense, smoky hand flew out of the tip of it and vanished....the ghost of the hand he had made Wormtail....more shouts of pain....."
So, the shouts of pain are evidence of the torture and suffering Voldemort caused with his wand, in addition to the murders.
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Soul Search - Jul 14, 2006 11:27 am (#10 of 52)
Tom Marvolo Riddleton, good thoughts.
My read on the "brother wands" in GoF was a hint that Harry's defeat of Voldemort would not involve wands.
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TheSaint - Jul 14, 2006 7:46 pm (#11 of 52)
DD did say that what happened in the graveyard was 'priori incantem,' so it seems every spell cast by the wand should appear? Shouldn't it?
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Solitaire - Jul 14, 2006 11:05 pm (#12 of 52)
Near the end of Chapter 36 of GoF, Harry has been explaining what happened in the graveyard and tells Dumbledore and Sirius of the shadows that emerged from Voldemort's wand.
"The last murders the wand performed," said Dumbledore, nodding. "In reverse order. More would have appeared, of course, had you maintained the connection."
Solitaire
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TheSaint - Jul 15, 2006 3:58 am (#13 of 52)
But more than murder's showed up, unless we are calling the amputation of the hand a murder. No way we could call the Crucio's thrown at Harry murders.
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haymoni - Jul 15, 2006 4:22 am (#14 of 52)
Maybe in all the chaos of "people" coming out of the wand, Harry just didn't notice the Crucios, the Lumoses, the Make-A-Fire-In-The-Fireplace Spells, etc.
People would be a lot easier to identify.
The boy WAS a bit busy.
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Solitaire - Jul 15, 2006 6:45 am (#15 of 52)
Could be ... Remember what happened when Amos Diggory found Winky holding Harry's wand after the Dark Mark had been fired up at the QWC. Winky was denying having fired the Mark.
"Well, we'll soon see," growled Mr. Diggory, looking unimpressed. "There's a simple way of discovering the last spell a wand performed, elf, did you know that?"
Winky trembled and shook her head frantically, her ears flapping, as Mr. Diggory raised his own wand again and placed it tip to tip with Harry's.
"Prior Incantato!" roared Mr. Diggory.
Harry heard Hermione gasp, horrified, as a gigantic serpent-tongued skull erupted from the point where the two wands met, but it was a mere shadow of the green skull high above them; it looked as though it were made of thick gray smoke: the ghost of a spell.
It sounds like spells come out, as well. Hm ...
Solitaire
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Good Evans - Jul 15, 2006 8:01 am (#16 of 52)
Practically perfect in every way
A little off topic but still Voldemorts wand
I have often been interested in the idea that "brother" wands don't work properly against each other, and we saw in the graveyard what this could indeed mean. But more than that, if forced to do battle, what residual effect on the wand could this have (if anything). I wonder if there will be final revelations, have the wands learned something about each other? Have they absorbed a little of each other having been forced to do battle?
I took the warning / explanation in GOF to mean that there could be far more to the ramifactions of making brother wands do battle, than the wonderous effect that helped Harry at the end of GOF. Indeed I wonder if there is more that happened that night?
I think there is real possibility that the wands will not do battle again (The wand chooses the wizard, the wand seems to have some level of conciousness of its own?) even if forced, so yes, it may be that Harry has to finish off Voldy without his wand. I dont necessarily think a fistfight will occur (queensbury rules anyone?) but maybe it will have to come down to somthing else???????
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TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 15, 2006 10:25 am (#17 of 52)
"Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking"
If Harry had maintained the connection,would LV himself have come out. It was his AK from his wand that killed his body.
...toddles off with a headache now...
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Choices - Jul 15, 2006 10:31 am (#18 of 52)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Saint - "But more than murder's showed up..."
I think Dumbledore only mentioned the "murders" because those were most important. The "screams" that issued from the wand were not identifiable, but the "murders" were recognizable as known people.....Cedric, the old man, the Potters, Bertha, etc. and they were the ones who spoke to Harry, encouraging him and giving him advice.
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Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 15, 2006 10:43 am (#19 of 52)
TwinklingBlueEyes - if Mouldy Voldies body was going to appear from the wand it would have done so before Harry's mum.
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TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 15, 2006 12:34 pm (#20 of 52)
"Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking"
Please ignore the ring...
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Choices - Jul 15, 2006 12:37 pm (#21 of 52)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
There, there, TBE - it happens to all of us. **offers TBE a calming draught** :-)
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TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 15, 2006 12:49 pm (#22 of 52)
"Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking"
Care to join me Choices?
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Choices - Jul 15, 2006 1:04 pm (#23 of 52)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Scoot over and make mine a tall one. Thanks! LOL
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Solitaire - Jul 15, 2006 8:49 pm (#24 of 52)
Here ... I have a large cauldronful of Wit-Sharpening Potion. Anyone care for a draught?
Solitaire
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Tom Marvolo Riddleton - Jul 15, 2006 8:50 pm (#25 of 52)
All right, I had a revelation, and if this is anybody else's idea already, or you hate it, excuse me.
The prophecy makes no sense, because if it were true that neither could live while the other survives (something like that), then neither would be alive. Except, Voldi isn't really alive, is he? I mean, he's not mortal, thus can't die, yet, so maybe that means that Harry will have to destroy the last Horcrux and Voldi in the same swift move. This means that the last Horcrux will have to be with Voldi in the end, meaning it could indeed be his own wand. All right, that's it.
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Good Evans - Jul 16, 2006 7:14 am (#26 of 52)
Practically perfect in every way
good thought TBE, maybe indeed this is why it was "time" to break the connection the other "ghosts" could feel the imminent arrival of the evil one!!!! I wonder what happened to him - a crossed wire, sounds awful to be "lost in the connection"
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Die Zimtzicke - Jul 31, 2006 8:08 pm (#27 of 52)
I do not think it's Voldemort's wand. He trusted Peter with his wand, but he doesn't trust Peter with his life. He knows Peter only is around him out of fear. At least Lucius was smart, and even he ruined a horcrux. And I don't know how he made the wand itself into one if you need the wand to make them in the first place.
I don't think the last horcrux has to be with Voldie at all, although I concede it could. I think he still has CONTROL of a last bit of soul somehow.
If it's the wand I will be surprised and horribly disappointed.
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painting sheila - Aug 5, 2006 8:01 pm (#28 of 52)
Doing one of the things I love best . . .
I think the last part of the horcruxes will be the one remaining in Voldedmort - right? He has split his soul 7 times but the last part is still in his body, so after destroying the 6 other parts of his soul - the last one will be destroyed when Harry faces Voldie to kill him.
I think there will be one in plain sight. One that everyone has overlooked because it is so much in the open. Can anyone think of something like that?
I think it would be great if Ron stumbled on it and destroyed it. He is always so close to the truth - but not quick there. He must be a powerful wizard - Dobby said so. I think he could do it.
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Choices - Aug 6, 2006 9:49 am (#29 of 52)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I think the Hufflepuff cup is in the trophy case at Hogwarts and Ron did spend a good bit of time polishing the silver cups and trophies when he did detention. It is in plain sight and could turn out to be a Horcrux.
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Die Zimtzicke - Aug 6, 2006 5:25 pm (#30 of 52)
Weren't those cups in the trophy case all engraved? Could you alter a horcrux's appearance like that? I thought the cup was a regular sized cup and the trophies were larger.
But I still definitely do not think it's the wand.
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Choices - Aug 6, 2006 5:50 pm (#31 of 52)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I don't remember anything about the cups being engraved in the book, although I am sure most of them were - but wouldn't it be easy to place a cup engraved with a badger into one of the trophy cases - it would hardly be noticed among all the others. We are told the trophy room is never locked, so it would be easy to slip in unnoticed.
"The crystal trophy cases glimmered where the moonlight caught them. Cups, shields, plates, and statues winked silver and gold in the darkness." COS ch.9
In HBP the cup is described as "a small golden cup with two finely wrought handles" and on it was engraved a badger. Not all cups or trophies are large, some are small, so I think it could easily fit in among the other things in the trophy cases and not be noticed....unless one was specifically looking for such a cup.
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Solitaire - Aug 6, 2006 9:06 pm (#32 of 52)
Well, Harry has now seen the cup, so he should be able to recognize it ... I hope!
Solitaire
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painting sheila - Aug 9, 2006 7:50 pm (#33 of 52)
Doing one of the things I love best . . .
Are we guessing that the cup in the trophy case is the one from Hepzibah's house? Do we know if she has any family? She says her family couldn't "wait to get their hands on " it.
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Choices - Aug 10, 2006 6:35 pm (#34 of 52)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Yes, Hepzibah has family, but Tom Riddle made off with the cup and the locket and as far as we know the family has not recovered either item. I do think he turned the cup into a Horcrux and hid it carefully (but in plain view) in the Trophy Case at Hogwarts. The locket Horcrux and the cup will more than likely come to light in the final book.
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Die Zimtzicke - Aug 10, 2006 8:50 pm (#35 of 52)
I think Zacharias Smith is related to her, and that he might matter, and the trio will be a bit sorry that they weren't more reasonable to him, when they need him for information later.
Doesn't anyone else think that's possible? I know Smith is a common name, but why bring him up so many times? Jo could have had Ginny run over anyone that didn't completely support Harry. Why a Smith?
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Mediwitch - Aug 10, 2006 9:03 pm (#36 of 52)
"We could have all been killed-- or worse, expelled!"
I agree with you on this one, Die Zimtzicke, especially after the Mark Evans fiasco. If Smith was another Evans, she'd have let him quietly disappear in HBP, and not bring him back to our attention with Ginny smashing into him at the commentator's podium. (OR she could have changed Hepzibah's surname, as we hadn't yet met her!)
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Die Zimtzicke - Aug 10, 2006 9:20 pm (#37 of 52)
Smoochies to Mediwitch. That's exactly what I mean! After the Mark Evans thing, Jo should have known better to draw attention to someone with the same name as someone else.
Plot bunny example: Zacharias is moping around the trophy room, scowling at the Quidditch cup that Gryffinor won AGAIN and suddenly he thinks he sees his Great-Auntie's old cup in the case!
See how easy that is? There's so many ways you could work that in, it boggles the mind. Mind you, I'm not saying I am sure the cup is there, but I do concede it could be.
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Katrina Nadja Romanoff - Dec 22, 2006 10:47 am (#38 of 52)
I had a post bringin'the same thing up, but I think someone put it down, I can't find it anymore. Hepzibah and Zacharias are both biblical name of a married couple, they were Jesus'aunt and oncle. So they're probably from the same family and there's a naming tradition going on. So..."Zacharias smith" = "The heir of hufflepuff"
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spinowner - Dec 26, 2006 8:57 am (#39 of 52)
I have to reread the graveyard scene. The heading of this thread made it occur to me that if Harry himself is a horcrux V's wand should have released a shadow of that bit of magic before his parents' shadows emerged from the wand. I would think someone else has made that point already on another thread but I'll include it here since I happened to think of it.
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TheSaint - Dec 27, 2006 9:18 am (#40 of 52)
Does seem suspicious. The spell that started it all does not even appear in the line up. Wonder if it is a case of failed magic does not show, or the person blamed did not cast the spell at all. Opens whole other avenues to explore.
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painting sheila - Dec 29, 2006 9:48 pm (#41 of 52)
Doing one of the things I love best . . .
I think I remember Jo saying some where that if the connection between Harry's and LV's wand had contunued, other shadow's of those he had killed would have appeared.
Maybe it was their choice whether or not to show themselves?
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TheSaint - Dec 30, 2006 3:23 am (#42 of 52)
But no one died with that AK. Just Volde's body. I had to wonder, as all the crucios showed, the hand showed, so why not that specific AK?
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Solitaire - Dec 30, 2006 2:52 pm (#43 of 52)
Did the crucios show? I guess I'll have to do some rereading, as I don't remember that. And yes, Sheila, Dumbledore did say that, had the connection been maintained, more shadows would undoubtedly have appeared. I gather from the use of the Priori Incantatem spell back at the QWC that the spell forces previous spells to be regurgitated from the wand. I didn't get the idea that the spells had any choice about reappearing or not. I would assume that the spell works the same way with the brother wands, unless we are told that there is a variation.
Solitaire
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Choices - Dec 30, 2006 6:26 pm (#44 of 52)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I remember there were "screams" that came out of Voldemort's wand - I figure those were the "crucios".
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painting sheila - Dec 31, 2006 12:50 am (#45 of 52)
Doing one of the things I love best . . .
OH! Choices - I bet you are right. The people wouldn't show up because they weren't part of the spell - but the pain was. That is what was spewed out - the pain!
Good catch!
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TheSaint - Dec 31, 2006 2:08 am (#46 of 52)
So why doesn't the scar-making, Volde-body-killing AK show up? If the crucios show as pain, does the AK only show as murdered souls...and since no souls were murdered, nothing shows? I was under the impression PI is all spells in reverse order.
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Laura W - Dec 31, 2006 5:28 am (#47 of 52)
"I was under the impression PI is all spells in reverse order."
I think you're right, Saint. The way Dumbledore explains it anyway. "One of the wands will force the other to regurgitate spells it has performed - in reverse. The most recent first ... and then those which preceded it..." (GoF, chapter 36, p.605, Raincoast). Sounds like *all* spells the wand performed if I'm reading that correctly.
And DD goes on to explain, "More would have appeared, of course, had you maintained the connection" (p.606, Raincoast). That second quote *might* answer your question, "So why doesn't the scar-making, Volde-body-killing AK show up?"
Laura
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Soul Search - Dec 31, 2006 9:31 am (#48 of 52)
We saw spells coming out of Voldemort's wand, but not Harry's. Shouldn't spells have come out of both wands?
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TheSaint - Dec 31, 2006 9:57 am (#49 of 52)
But if the spells were in reverse order, The missing AK should be between his mother and Bertha Jorkin, not somewhere after his father. Unless...
The spells came out of the wand that lost the battle of the wills with the ball on the connecting string.
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Choices - Dec 31, 2006 12:01 pm (#50 of 52)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I think it is because the AK did not kill all of Voldemort...it only killed his body. Then he got a new body to house his tattered soul and he is standing there holding his wand as the shades come out. It would be impossible for his shade to come out since there is no shade - he didn't completely die and he didn't cross over. The AK fired at Harry failed to "properly" kill anyone, so it is not represented in what comes out of the wand.
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Laura W - Dec 31, 2006 4:46 pm (#51 of 52)
Soul Search, Dumbledore specifically says "One of the wands will force the other to regurgitate spells it has performed." It seems that means that one brother wand forces the other - somehow - to release the spells. Not that *both* wands will release their spells.
Maybe, having the additional strength of Fawkes' song (spirit?) in this case, it was Harry's wand that was able to force the spells out of Tom's instead of the other way around. Just guessing on that, though.
"But if the spells were in reverse order, The missing AK should be between his mother and Bertha Jorkin, not somewhere after his father." (TheSaint)
Well, we all know that Jo has a bit of a wand order problem. (wink)
Laura
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xray - Jan 23, 2007 12:18 pm (#52 of 52)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
TheSaint said:
So why doesn't the scar-making, Volde-body-killing AK show up? If the crucios show as pain, does the AK only show as murdered souls...and since no souls were murdered, nothing shows? I was under the impression PI is all spells in reverse order.
This does make sense. I've discussed this elsewhere and believe that spells that didn't work don't show up, e.g. Voldemort's crucio spell that missed and hit the gravestone instead. And since AK didn't actually work completely (his soul wasn't completely murdered), he didn't show up.
Priori Incantatem revealed the spells in this order:
Screams of Pain (Crucio)
Smoky hand (Wormtail's)
More shouts of pain (Crucio)
Cedric Diggory
More screams of pain
Frank Bryce
Bertha Jorkins
Lilly Potter*
James Potter*
* Editors incorrectly reversed this order in early US editions.
I do think Lord Voldemort's wand is a horcrux created using a different wand, perhaps Bertha Jorkins' or Wormtail's wand.
Elanor- Hufflepuff Prefect
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Similar topics» Purchasing a Second Wand
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» Riddle's Diary aka Horcrux version 1.0
» Is Voldemort Our Next Ghost?
» Voldemort and Death
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