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Long Theory About Harry's Family
Lady Arabella Mon May 30, 2011 1:37 am
The following material was orginally posted on the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum, hosted by World Crossing, which ceased operations on April 15, 2011.
Last edited by Lady Arabella on Mon May 30, 2011 12:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
Lady Arabella- Prefect
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Introduction (Posts 1 to 3)
Lady Arabella Mon May 30, 2011 1:41 am
Long Theory about Harry's Family
Denise P. - Jul 12, 2004 10:18 am Reply
Edited by Kip Carter Nov 17, 2005 7:04 pm
This is a repost of a well-thought-out theory posted by Round Pink Spider. While I have left the original posts complete with the invisible font, please keep in mind that this is a THEORY only. It does NOT contain spoilers unless the theory is proven true, you do not have to use invisible fonts to reply to any part of it. Feel free to discuss it normally as you would any theory posted on the Forum.
Note: When archiving this material from World Crossing, all font was archived as normal text, not invisible.
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Round Pink Spider - Jul 12, 2004 3:26 am (#1 of 565) Reply
Edited Jul 12, 2004 4:39 am
WARNING: If correct, the following theory could reveal some of the plot of book 6!
In each book, the title has revealed the central subject by which JKR will reveal information about Harry. In each successive book, that subject has been somewhat more closely linked to Harry. The stone in SS/PS was only indirectly connected with Harry because Voldemort’s possession of it would have threatened his life, and the information we gained at the end was fairly limited. The Order of the Phoenix, on the other hand, was more intimately connected with Harry because he is their only hope of victory in the war against Voldemort, and the information we gained was very significant. To continue this pattern, the Half-blood Prince would probably have close ties to Harry, and the information we gain at the end should be exponentially more important.
There are two bodies of information large enough to continue this pattern: the mystery of Harry’s family and their background, and the mystery of how Harry is to defeat Voldemort. The central mystery of HbP will probably be the background of Harry’s family.
Royalty and the Gryffindor Line – I believe that JKR has been implying all along that the line of Godric Gryffindor is royal. ‘Godric’ means ‘heavenly ruler’ or ‘ruler by the power of God.’ The crest of Gryffindor house, instead of being a griffin as one might expect, is a golden lion on a red background, associated with English royalty. In fact, the first established coat of arms for an English king was exactly that: gules a lion rampant or, for Henry II. (Scroll down at [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] to see a picture.) Golden lions on a red background still figure prominently in the current royal family’s crest. (Although the movie isn’t canon, if you look closely at the fabric on the Gryffindor section of the Quidditch stands, you will see that the pattern on the red squares alternates between two golden lions and two golden crowns.)
Arthur, Bill, Charlie, Fred, and George all have names of legendary or actual English kings (Arthur, William, Charles, Alfred, and George). Several of these names were used over and over, so the Weasley family resembles a “Who’s Who” of English royalty. Several other English kings have been named James; and Harry is the nickname of Prince Henry, the Queen’s second grandson. I suspect JKR may be implying that both Harry’s and Ron’s families are descended from a royal line. But I think JKR has thrown us a red herring: Ron Weasley as King. At the end of OotP, Gryffindor house members were carrying Ron and singing “Weasley is our King” (OotP, p. 702). Harry also dreamed that Ron and Hermione were wearing crowns (OotP, p. 179). I think it’s possible that JKR put “Weasley is our King” in book 5 to supply an obvious explanation for the increasing number of royalty references. However, clues to a royal line have centered around Harry from the beginning.
Harry and the Arthurian Connection – From the first book, JKR has been giving us hints that Harry is royal. For example, she had Petunia Dursley say that Harry was a “nasty common name” (SS/PS, p. 7). Harry was brought up in Surrey, surrounded by famous British castles. And on p. 837 in OotP, Dumbledore said that Harry was not “a pampered little prince” after living for 11 years at the Dursley’s house.
But many of the clues have been Arthurian references. JKR established that Merlin was real in her stories by having Merlin on a Chocolate Frog card (SS/PS, p.103), and by phrases like “the Order of Merlin” and “Merlin’s beard”. Albus Dumbledore had the infant Harry brought to Surrey and laid him on the Dursley’s doorstep, as Merlin brought the infant Arthur to Sir Ector to be raised. Harry grew up ignorant of his heritage, as Arthur did. Then Harry pulled the sword of Godric Gryffindor from a hat (“pulling the sword from the stone” [Arthur] combined with “pulling a rabbit from a hat” [magic]). When Arthur pulled the sword from the stone, it proved he was the true heir of the dead King. What did Harry prove? “ ‘Only a true Gryffindor could have pulled that out of the hat, Harry,’ said Dumbledore simply.” (CoS, p. 334)
By having Harry defeat the Hungarian Horntail, JKR implied that Harry is “the Pendragon,” the most powerful dragon, a title borne by King Arthur. She has been teasing her readers further by connecting Harry with eggs: two dozen of his Hogwarts letters came rolled up inside eggs (SS/PS, p. 40); the rubies in Godric Gryffindor’s sword were the size of eggs (CoS, p. 320); he had to snatch a golden dragon’s egg in the first task; and Gilderoy Lockhart offered Harry “a round dozen” autographed photos (OotP, p. 509).
Godric Gryffindor lived more than 900 years ago. Most Arthurian legends place King Arthur just shortly before that. Supposedly, after his wounding in his final battle, Arthur was spirited away by enchantresses to be healed. Some legends also claim that Arthur took a second wife after the unfaithful Guinevere abandoned him. I am speculating that, in book 6, Harry will discover that Godric Gryffindor was Arthur’s son (the Half-blood Prince) by his second wife (a witch), and that he, Harry, is Godric’s direct descendent.
I think that JKR is positioning Harry to be the fulfillment of Merlin’s prophecy that Arthur would return some day when England needed him the most.
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Denise P. - Jul 12, 2004 9:24 am (#2 of 565) Reply
Edited Jul 12, 2004 4:33 pm
Round Pink Spider - Jul 12, 2004 4:29 am
This thread is the second in a three-part theory. If you haven’t read Part 1, you might need to read the initial posts from Part 1 in order to understand parts of this thread.
WARNING: If correct, the following could reveal some of the plot in books 6 and/or 7!
WELCOME TO LUNA-LAND! This is the part of the theory that I expect people will find the hardest to believe. If you don’t believe it, you’ll be in good company! But I hope to leave you wondering, at least…
Fudge’s Little Joke – JKR sometimes feeds her readers clues through jokes, such as Dumbledore’s comment that Harry and Hermione couldn’t have released Sirius Black unless they were “able to be in two places at once”. Then Ron said that Gryffindor had as much chance of winning the Quidditch Cup as his father had of becoming Minister of Magic. Since they did win the Quidditch Cup, many people are now expecting that Arthur Weasley will become the Minister of Magic eventually.
I started wondering when Fudge said: “Oho! …Willy Widdershins was lying, was he? Or was it Potter’s identical twin in the Hog’s Head that day? (underlining is mine) Or is there the usual simple explanation involving a reversal of time, a dead man coming back to life, and a couple of invisible dementors?” (OotP, p. 614.) We know that Harry and Hermione did go back in time, that a “dead man” (Peter Pettigrew) is alive, and that the dementors were real. But “Potter’s identical twin”?
Holly and Oak – It’d be easy to ignore this, even with the company it’s keeping. But I’ve found other twin references connected to Harry. I found one while studying holly, the wood from which Harry’s wand is made. There is an old Celtic belief that Holly and Oak are twin kings, locked in a cyclic battle in which Holly rules from the summer solstice to the winter solstice, and Oak from the winter solstice to the summer solstice (“At the solstice will come a new…”). Holly is strongest at the winter solstice, then reaches its weakest point right before the summer solstice, when it begins its next ascent to power. Harry’s life-threatening crisis always comes right around the summer solstice, after which he begins to recover. Now that we’ve heard about a “Half-blood Prince”, it’s even harder to ignore the legend of the twin kings. If Harry has a twin, the twin should probably have an oak wand.
Symbolic Scenes – JKR also uses “symbolic scenes” to slip in clues. Usually, the symbolic meaning is communicated visually and is unconnected with the scene in which it appears. An example of a symbolic scene we’ve seen fulfilled was in CoS on p. 49. In Borgin and Burke’s, Harry saw a withered hand on a cushion, a blood-stained pack of cards, a staring glass eye, evil-looking masks, and an assortment of human bones. All of these refer to the climax of GoF. Wormtail’s severed hand, Harry’s blood, and Riddle Sr.’s bone were in the potion that restored Voldemort, and the staring glass eye and evil-looking masks were Harry’s enemies, the fake Moody and the Death Eaters.
Notice that Harry’s blood, above, was associated with a pack of cards (as in Kings and Queens). In GoF on p. 393, Ron was building a card castle out of Exploding Snap cards. He put the last two cards on top (the latest additions to the Potter family, perhaps?). Then the castle blew up, singeing Ron’s eyebrows. After Fred and George teased him, Ron “felt [his forehead to see] how much damage had been done” [think scar]. Interestingly, singeing or shaving one’s eyebrows was a sign of mourning in ancient Egypt.
The Seven Tasks and the Seven Books – I believe the most important symbolic scenes are the seven tasks at the end of SS/PS. Tomoe started a thread theorizing that these tasks might represent the seven books. I think this was brilliant, and I think it’s true.
I also believe that the tasks are in correct book order, with the potions and Snape’s riddle representing book 6. If you read through the riddle now, you may notice that the last two lines read, “Fourth, the second left and the second on the right/Are twins once you taste them, though different at first sight.” If the bottles represent people, this line could mean that one element of book 6 is a set of twins that cannot be recognized as twins because they don’t look like each other. Twins, of course, do not have to look like each other, but the riddle also implies that they ought to look like each other (“though different at first sight”), and also possibly that they will look like each other eventually.
The seventh task, representing book 7, might also refer to Harry’s identical twin. Harry’s image in the Mirror of Erised “placed” the stone in his pocket, giving him what he needed to thwart Voldemort and Quirrel. This could mean that somehow Harry’s identical twin will help him find the key to defeating Voldemort.
Two Neptunes – In GoF, on p. 201, Professor Trelawney requires her class to chart the positions of the planets at the moment of their birth. Harry ends up with two Neptunes on his chart. In astrology, Neptune represents secrets, but it’s also associated with orphans. JKR may be trying to use Harry’s “mistake” to imply the birth of twins who would share a secret, or who would be orphaned.
Who is the Twin? – SPOILER WARNING: Some of you may have already guessed who the hidden identical twin would have to be. If you haven’t, and you don’t want to know, skip the invisible text below. The topic can be discussed without knowing the identity of the secret twin (although there are additional “twin” clues below that are associated specifically with that person). I would ask anyone who reads the invisible text below to refer to the twin in posts as “the secret twin” rather than by name.
**Despite the fact that Dumbledore referred to him as a pure-blood and implied that Harry and Neville do not have the same parents, I believe the secret twin is Neville. We know Harry and Neville were born within a few days of each other, possibly the same day. And James didn’t always tell Dumbledore his important decisions. For example, Dumbledore thought that the Potters’ secret keeper was Sirius Black, because James didn’t tell Dumbledore that he’d switched to Peter Pettigrew. If Lily gave birth to twins and Alice Longbottom’s son was stillborn, James and Lily might have decided to protect one of their infant sons by transfiguring him into the image of the dead baby and allowing the Longbottoms to raise him. If they didn’t tell Dumbledore, then the only people still alive who would know about the switch would be the Longbottoms. And Harry may be perfectly positioned to find out the truth in book 6.
There are several clues that Neville might be Harry’s twin, such as Neville’s grandmother’s comment that Neville “doesn’t have his father’s talent,” Harry calling himself Neville on the Knight Bus, and Neville coming to rescue Harry in the Death Chamber at the end of OotP. But the biggest clue was cleverly hidden. In OotP, on p. 186, when Luna commented that she didn’t know who Neville was, he answered (rather bizarrely) “I’m nobody.” I believe this is a reference to a poem by Emily Dickinson:
I’m nobody! Who are you?
Are you nobody too?
Then there’s a pair of us – don’t tell!
They’d banish us, you know.
How dreary to be somebody!
How public, like a frog
To tell one’s name the livelong day
To an admiring bog!
I believe Harry and Neville are a pair. Harry is the one who must tell his name to an admiring crowd (and he does find it dreary), while Neville is allowed to be a nobody, not required to reveal his true identity.
Neville’s wand (which had belonged to Frank Longbottom) very conveniently broke at the end of last year, so Neville will need a new wand. If he returns next year with an oak wand, then this theory may very well be correct, and Neville is Harry’s twin brother.**
This thread is focused on both the existence and the identity of the secret twin.
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Denise P. - Jul 12, 2004 9:26 am (#3 of 565) Reply
Edited Jul 12, 2004 4:32 pm
Round Pink Spider Jul 12, 2004 4:34 am
This thread is the third part of a three-part theory. It is here to answer the inevitable question, “Why would there be a royal family if they don’t rule anyone?” It depends on information from Part 1, but not from Part 2. If you haven’t read Part 1, you might need to read the initial posts from Part 1 in order to understand parts of this thread.
WARNING: If correct, the following theory might give away parts of books 6 and 7. YOU DO NOT NEED TO READ PART 3 to understand Parts 1 and 2.
Why does England need a royal Wizarding line? – Governments in the Wizarding World seem to center on a Ministry of Magic, with the Minister of Magic as leader. There seems to be no reason for a royal family. It is possible that the “king” might serve as a figurehead, or perhaps a watchdog, to make certain the Ministry doesn’t get out of hand. But it seems odd that none of Harry’s pureblood friends ever mentioned a royal family. Although I can’t rule out that it could be some sort of constitutional monarchy, I’m wondering if the princely line of Godric Gryffindor might have a purpose taken from another part of the legend of King Arthur: the story of Percival and the Fisher King.
Parallels between the story of Percival and Harry Potter – The story of the Fisher King concerns the Holy Grail. It combines Christian stories with old Celtic traditions. The similarities between the legend and the Harry Potter stories are very compelling:
1. Percival lives in seclusion with a female relative (in the legend, his mother), with no exposure to the world of chivalry.
2. Percival’s father was a great knight who died when Percival was very young, and he’s been kept deliberately ignorant so that he wouldn’t try to become a knight as well.
3. Percival meets some knights and decides to become a knight over the protest of his relative.
4. In his adventures, he shows that he’s a powerful opponent, but he knows so little about chivalry that some people think he’s out of his mind.
5. Percival sees the Fisher King on his journey, but the King is already at the castle before Percival arrives.
6. The Fisher King is very tall, old but not frail, and unfailingly polite.
7. The Fisher King has a terrible wound that should have taken his life, but he has been miraculously spared. However, the wound gives him great pain. (In this case, Harry plays the part of the Fisher King.)
8. The wound is often said to be in the thigh, and inflicted by a spear (“wand” and “spear” are related words in Gaelic; remember the scar above Dumbledore’s knee).
9. The castle in which the Fisher King lives is made of gray stone, square and possessing turrets and a tower. Enchantments hide it from mortal eyes, and it cannot be found without help. It is among hills, beyond some natural barrier, such as a lake or a forest. It cannot usually be reached before nightfall.
10. Percival receives a fine sword as a gift from the Fisher King.
11. Percival takes part in a tremendous feast after his arrival.
12. After the feast, four holy objects, including the Grail, are carried through the hall. The Grail shines so brightly that the candles seem dim.
13. In one version of the legend, the knight (in this case Gawain instead of Percival) plays chess against a magic chessboard.
14. Percival was taught not to ask questions.
15. Percival’s (Harry’s) failure to ask questions causes the Fisher King’s (Harry’s) agony to be increased, and causes devastation in the land.
The Celtic Background – The ancient Celtic legends on which the Fisher King story appears to be based hold more information for the Harry Potter stories. In those legends, the four holy objects are the Cauldron of Rebirth, the bright silver sword, the powerful spear (wand), and the Lia Fail, a stone (or circle of stones) that reveals the rightful king. We’ve already seen a cauldron of rebirth and the bright sword. The spear or wand could be Harry’s, or it could be some other wand we haven’t yet seen. And I have suspicions about the stone circle!
The word Grail comes from graal, a bowl or platter. From this point of view, we’ve seen another graal, the Pensieve, so the Pensieve could be yet another reference to the Grail. But there is another Celtic legend associated with the graal, that of Bran the Blessed. Bran, mortally wounded and in agony, ordered his companions to cut off his head and carry it back with them. This head remained magically alive, and was carried on a bowl-like platter. After the enchantment was broken, the head of Bran was supposedly buried in England, where it is believed (in parts of Wales) to protect England from invasion. The miraculous sustaining of life and the protection of England associated with the head eventually transferred in legend from the head to the graal itself. To this day, the Grail is associated with miraculous healing and protection.
Important “cups” have surrounded Harry since he began school: the House Cup, the Quidditch Cup, the Quidditch World Cup, the Triwizard Cup, and the Goblet of Fire. Is there is a connection between the Grail, the embodiment of love and truth, and the locked room in the Department of Mysteries? And is there is a connection between the circle of stones that recognizes the rightful king and Stonehenge, which is near the Malfoy’s manor in Wiltshire? Decapitation is also a big theme in the stories (did you notice all the talking heads in the third movie?). I dread to think where she may be going with that!
Again, though I can’t rule out a monarchy or a watchdog-type role, if Harry’s family members are guardians of something like the Grail, their principle role as a royal family might be the magical protection of England. Any wizard trying to take over England would then need to eliminate the Potters!
Denise P. - Jul 12, 2004 10:18 am Reply
Edited by Kip Carter Nov 17, 2005 7:04 pm
This is a repost of a well-thought-out theory posted by Round Pink Spider. While I have left the original posts complete with the invisible font, please keep in mind that this is a THEORY only. It does NOT contain spoilers unless the theory is proven true, you do not have to use invisible fonts to reply to any part of it. Feel free to discuss it normally as you would any theory posted on the Forum.
Note: When archiving this material from World Crossing, all font was archived as normal text, not invisible.
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Round Pink Spider - Jul 12, 2004 3:26 am (#1 of 565) Reply
Edited Jul 12, 2004 4:39 am
WARNING: If correct, the following theory could reveal some of the plot of book 6!
In each book, the title has revealed the central subject by which JKR will reveal information about Harry. In each successive book, that subject has been somewhat more closely linked to Harry. The stone in SS/PS was only indirectly connected with Harry because Voldemort’s possession of it would have threatened his life, and the information we gained at the end was fairly limited. The Order of the Phoenix, on the other hand, was more intimately connected with Harry because he is their only hope of victory in the war against Voldemort, and the information we gained was very significant. To continue this pattern, the Half-blood Prince would probably have close ties to Harry, and the information we gain at the end should be exponentially more important.
There are two bodies of information large enough to continue this pattern: the mystery of Harry’s family and their background, and the mystery of how Harry is to defeat Voldemort. The central mystery of HbP will probably be the background of Harry’s family.
Royalty and the Gryffindor Line – I believe that JKR has been implying all along that the line of Godric Gryffindor is royal. ‘Godric’ means ‘heavenly ruler’ or ‘ruler by the power of God.’ The crest of Gryffindor house, instead of being a griffin as one might expect, is a golden lion on a red background, associated with English royalty. In fact, the first established coat of arms for an English king was exactly that: gules a lion rampant or, for Henry II. (Scroll down at [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] to see a picture.) Golden lions on a red background still figure prominently in the current royal family’s crest. (Although the movie isn’t canon, if you look closely at the fabric on the Gryffindor section of the Quidditch stands, you will see that the pattern on the red squares alternates between two golden lions and two golden crowns.)
Arthur, Bill, Charlie, Fred, and George all have names of legendary or actual English kings (Arthur, William, Charles, Alfred, and George). Several of these names were used over and over, so the Weasley family resembles a “Who’s Who” of English royalty. Several other English kings have been named James; and Harry is the nickname of Prince Henry, the Queen’s second grandson. I suspect JKR may be implying that both Harry’s and Ron’s families are descended from a royal line. But I think JKR has thrown us a red herring: Ron Weasley as King. At the end of OotP, Gryffindor house members were carrying Ron and singing “Weasley is our King” (OotP, p. 702). Harry also dreamed that Ron and Hermione were wearing crowns (OotP, p. 179). I think it’s possible that JKR put “Weasley is our King” in book 5 to supply an obvious explanation for the increasing number of royalty references. However, clues to a royal line have centered around Harry from the beginning.
Harry and the Arthurian Connection – From the first book, JKR has been giving us hints that Harry is royal. For example, she had Petunia Dursley say that Harry was a “nasty common name” (SS/PS, p. 7). Harry was brought up in Surrey, surrounded by famous British castles. And on p. 837 in OotP, Dumbledore said that Harry was not “a pampered little prince” after living for 11 years at the Dursley’s house.
But many of the clues have been Arthurian references. JKR established that Merlin was real in her stories by having Merlin on a Chocolate Frog card (SS/PS, p.103), and by phrases like “the Order of Merlin” and “Merlin’s beard”. Albus Dumbledore had the infant Harry brought to Surrey and laid him on the Dursley’s doorstep, as Merlin brought the infant Arthur to Sir Ector to be raised. Harry grew up ignorant of his heritage, as Arthur did. Then Harry pulled the sword of Godric Gryffindor from a hat (“pulling the sword from the stone” [Arthur] combined with “pulling a rabbit from a hat” [magic]). When Arthur pulled the sword from the stone, it proved he was the true heir of the dead King. What did Harry prove? “ ‘Only a true Gryffindor could have pulled that out of the hat, Harry,’ said Dumbledore simply.” (CoS, p. 334)
By having Harry defeat the Hungarian Horntail, JKR implied that Harry is “the Pendragon,” the most powerful dragon, a title borne by King Arthur. She has been teasing her readers further by connecting Harry with eggs: two dozen of his Hogwarts letters came rolled up inside eggs (SS/PS, p. 40); the rubies in Godric Gryffindor’s sword were the size of eggs (CoS, p. 320); he had to snatch a golden dragon’s egg in the first task; and Gilderoy Lockhart offered Harry “a round dozen” autographed photos (OotP, p. 509).
Godric Gryffindor lived more than 900 years ago. Most Arthurian legends place King Arthur just shortly before that. Supposedly, after his wounding in his final battle, Arthur was spirited away by enchantresses to be healed. Some legends also claim that Arthur took a second wife after the unfaithful Guinevere abandoned him. I am speculating that, in book 6, Harry will discover that Godric Gryffindor was Arthur’s son (the Half-blood Prince) by his second wife (a witch), and that he, Harry, is Godric’s direct descendent.
I think that JKR is positioning Harry to be the fulfillment of Merlin’s prophecy that Arthur would return some day when England needed him the most.
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Denise P. - Jul 12, 2004 9:24 am (#2 of 565) Reply
Edited Jul 12, 2004 4:33 pm
Round Pink Spider - Jul 12, 2004 4:29 am
This thread is the second in a three-part theory. If you haven’t read Part 1, you might need to read the initial posts from Part 1 in order to understand parts of this thread.
WARNING: If correct, the following could reveal some of the plot in books 6 and/or 7!
WELCOME TO LUNA-LAND! This is the part of the theory that I expect people will find the hardest to believe. If you don’t believe it, you’ll be in good company! But I hope to leave you wondering, at least…
Fudge’s Little Joke – JKR sometimes feeds her readers clues through jokes, such as Dumbledore’s comment that Harry and Hermione couldn’t have released Sirius Black unless they were “able to be in two places at once”. Then Ron said that Gryffindor had as much chance of winning the Quidditch Cup as his father had of becoming Minister of Magic. Since they did win the Quidditch Cup, many people are now expecting that Arthur Weasley will become the Minister of Magic eventually.
I started wondering when Fudge said: “Oho! …Willy Widdershins was lying, was he? Or was it Potter’s identical twin in the Hog’s Head that day? (underlining is mine) Or is there the usual simple explanation involving a reversal of time, a dead man coming back to life, and a couple of invisible dementors?” (OotP, p. 614.) We know that Harry and Hermione did go back in time, that a “dead man” (Peter Pettigrew) is alive, and that the dementors were real. But “Potter’s identical twin”?
Holly and Oak – It’d be easy to ignore this, even with the company it’s keeping. But I’ve found other twin references connected to Harry. I found one while studying holly, the wood from which Harry’s wand is made. There is an old Celtic belief that Holly and Oak are twin kings, locked in a cyclic battle in which Holly rules from the summer solstice to the winter solstice, and Oak from the winter solstice to the summer solstice (“At the solstice will come a new…”). Holly is strongest at the winter solstice, then reaches its weakest point right before the summer solstice, when it begins its next ascent to power. Harry’s life-threatening crisis always comes right around the summer solstice, after which he begins to recover. Now that we’ve heard about a “Half-blood Prince”, it’s even harder to ignore the legend of the twin kings. If Harry has a twin, the twin should probably have an oak wand.
Symbolic Scenes – JKR also uses “symbolic scenes” to slip in clues. Usually, the symbolic meaning is communicated visually and is unconnected with the scene in which it appears. An example of a symbolic scene we’ve seen fulfilled was in CoS on p. 49. In Borgin and Burke’s, Harry saw a withered hand on a cushion, a blood-stained pack of cards, a staring glass eye, evil-looking masks, and an assortment of human bones. All of these refer to the climax of GoF. Wormtail’s severed hand, Harry’s blood, and Riddle Sr.’s bone were in the potion that restored Voldemort, and the staring glass eye and evil-looking masks were Harry’s enemies, the fake Moody and the Death Eaters.
Notice that Harry’s blood, above, was associated with a pack of cards (as in Kings and Queens). In GoF on p. 393, Ron was building a card castle out of Exploding Snap cards. He put the last two cards on top (the latest additions to the Potter family, perhaps?). Then the castle blew up, singeing Ron’s eyebrows. After Fred and George teased him, Ron “felt [his forehead to see] how much damage had been done” [think scar]. Interestingly, singeing or shaving one’s eyebrows was a sign of mourning in ancient Egypt.
The Seven Tasks and the Seven Books – I believe the most important symbolic scenes are the seven tasks at the end of SS/PS. Tomoe started a thread theorizing that these tasks might represent the seven books. I think this was brilliant, and I think it’s true.
I also believe that the tasks are in correct book order, with the potions and Snape’s riddle representing book 6. If you read through the riddle now, you may notice that the last two lines read, “Fourth, the second left and the second on the right/Are twins once you taste them, though different at first sight.” If the bottles represent people, this line could mean that one element of book 6 is a set of twins that cannot be recognized as twins because they don’t look like each other. Twins, of course, do not have to look like each other, but the riddle also implies that they ought to look like each other (“though different at first sight”), and also possibly that they will look like each other eventually.
The seventh task, representing book 7, might also refer to Harry’s identical twin. Harry’s image in the Mirror of Erised “placed” the stone in his pocket, giving him what he needed to thwart Voldemort and Quirrel. This could mean that somehow Harry’s identical twin will help him find the key to defeating Voldemort.
Two Neptunes – In GoF, on p. 201, Professor Trelawney requires her class to chart the positions of the planets at the moment of their birth. Harry ends up with two Neptunes on his chart. In astrology, Neptune represents secrets, but it’s also associated with orphans. JKR may be trying to use Harry’s “mistake” to imply the birth of twins who would share a secret, or who would be orphaned.
Who is the Twin? – SPOILER WARNING: Some of you may have already guessed who the hidden identical twin would have to be. If you haven’t, and you don’t want to know, skip the invisible text below. The topic can be discussed without knowing the identity of the secret twin (although there are additional “twin” clues below that are associated specifically with that person). I would ask anyone who reads the invisible text below to refer to the twin in posts as “the secret twin” rather than by name.
**Despite the fact that Dumbledore referred to him as a pure-blood and implied that Harry and Neville do not have the same parents, I believe the secret twin is Neville. We know Harry and Neville were born within a few days of each other, possibly the same day. And James didn’t always tell Dumbledore his important decisions. For example, Dumbledore thought that the Potters’ secret keeper was Sirius Black, because James didn’t tell Dumbledore that he’d switched to Peter Pettigrew. If Lily gave birth to twins and Alice Longbottom’s son was stillborn, James and Lily might have decided to protect one of their infant sons by transfiguring him into the image of the dead baby and allowing the Longbottoms to raise him. If they didn’t tell Dumbledore, then the only people still alive who would know about the switch would be the Longbottoms. And Harry may be perfectly positioned to find out the truth in book 6.
There are several clues that Neville might be Harry’s twin, such as Neville’s grandmother’s comment that Neville “doesn’t have his father’s talent,” Harry calling himself Neville on the Knight Bus, and Neville coming to rescue Harry in the Death Chamber at the end of OotP. But the biggest clue was cleverly hidden. In OotP, on p. 186, when Luna commented that she didn’t know who Neville was, he answered (rather bizarrely) “I’m nobody.” I believe this is a reference to a poem by Emily Dickinson:
I’m nobody! Who are you?
Are you nobody too?
Then there’s a pair of us – don’t tell!
They’d banish us, you know.
How dreary to be somebody!
How public, like a frog
To tell one’s name the livelong day
To an admiring bog!
I believe Harry and Neville are a pair. Harry is the one who must tell his name to an admiring crowd (and he does find it dreary), while Neville is allowed to be a nobody, not required to reveal his true identity.
Neville’s wand (which had belonged to Frank Longbottom) very conveniently broke at the end of last year, so Neville will need a new wand. If he returns next year with an oak wand, then this theory may very well be correct, and Neville is Harry’s twin brother.**
This thread is focused on both the existence and the identity of the secret twin.
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Denise P. - Jul 12, 2004 9:26 am (#3 of 565) Reply
Edited Jul 12, 2004 4:32 pm
Round Pink Spider Jul 12, 2004 4:34 am
This thread is the third part of a three-part theory. It is here to answer the inevitable question, “Why would there be a royal family if they don’t rule anyone?” It depends on information from Part 1, but not from Part 2. If you haven’t read Part 1, you might need to read the initial posts from Part 1 in order to understand parts of this thread.
WARNING: If correct, the following theory might give away parts of books 6 and 7. YOU DO NOT NEED TO READ PART 3 to understand Parts 1 and 2.
Why does England need a royal Wizarding line? – Governments in the Wizarding World seem to center on a Ministry of Magic, with the Minister of Magic as leader. There seems to be no reason for a royal family. It is possible that the “king” might serve as a figurehead, or perhaps a watchdog, to make certain the Ministry doesn’t get out of hand. But it seems odd that none of Harry’s pureblood friends ever mentioned a royal family. Although I can’t rule out that it could be some sort of constitutional monarchy, I’m wondering if the princely line of Godric Gryffindor might have a purpose taken from another part of the legend of King Arthur: the story of Percival and the Fisher King.
Parallels between the story of Percival and Harry Potter – The story of the Fisher King concerns the Holy Grail. It combines Christian stories with old Celtic traditions. The similarities between the legend and the Harry Potter stories are very compelling:
1. Percival lives in seclusion with a female relative (in the legend, his mother), with no exposure to the world of chivalry.
2. Percival’s father was a great knight who died when Percival was very young, and he’s been kept deliberately ignorant so that he wouldn’t try to become a knight as well.
3. Percival meets some knights and decides to become a knight over the protest of his relative.
4. In his adventures, he shows that he’s a powerful opponent, but he knows so little about chivalry that some people think he’s out of his mind.
5. Percival sees the Fisher King on his journey, but the King is already at the castle before Percival arrives.
6. The Fisher King is very tall, old but not frail, and unfailingly polite.
7. The Fisher King has a terrible wound that should have taken his life, but he has been miraculously spared. However, the wound gives him great pain. (In this case, Harry plays the part of the Fisher King.)
8. The wound is often said to be in the thigh, and inflicted by a spear (“wand” and “spear” are related words in Gaelic; remember the scar above Dumbledore’s knee).
9. The castle in which the Fisher King lives is made of gray stone, square and possessing turrets and a tower. Enchantments hide it from mortal eyes, and it cannot be found without help. It is among hills, beyond some natural barrier, such as a lake or a forest. It cannot usually be reached before nightfall.
10. Percival receives a fine sword as a gift from the Fisher King.
11. Percival takes part in a tremendous feast after his arrival.
12. After the feast, four holy objects, including the Grail, are carried through the hall. The Grail shines so brightly that the candles seem dim.
13. In one version of the legend, the knight (in this case Gawain instead of Percival) plays chess against a magic chessboard.
14. Percival was taught not to ask questions.
15. Percival’s (Harry’s) failure to ask questions causes the Fisher King’s (Harry’s) agony to be increased, and causes devastation in the land.
The Celtic Background – The ancient Celtic legends on which the Fisher King story appears to be based hold more information for the Harry Potter stories. In those legends, the four holy objects are the Cauldron of Rebirth, the bright silver sword, the powerful spear (wand), and the Lia Fail, a stone (or circle of stones) that reveals the rightful king. We’ve already seen a cauldron of rebirth and the bright sword. The spear or wand could be Harry’s, or it could be some other wand we haven’t yet seen. And I have suspicions about the stone circle!
The word Grail comes from graal, a bowl or platter. From this point of view, we’ve seen another graal, the Pensieve, so the Pensieve could be yet another reference to the Grail. But there is another Celtic legend associated with the graal, that of Bran the Blessed. Bran, mortally wounded and in agony, ordered his companions to cut off his head and carry it back with them. This head remained magically alive, and was carried on a bowl-like platter. After the enchantment was broken, the head of Bran was supposedly buried in England, where it is believed (in parts of Wales) to protect England from invasion. The miraculous sustaining of life and the protection of England associated with the head eventually transferred in legend from the head to the graal itself. To this day, the Grail is associated with miraculous healing and protection.
Important “cups” have surrounded Harry since he began school: the House Cup, the Quidditch Cup, the Quidditch World Cup, the Triwizard Cup, and the Goblet of Fire. Is there is a connection between the Grail, the embodiment of love and truth, and the locked room in the Department of Mysteries? And is there is a connection between the circle of stones that recognizes the rightful king and Stonehenge, which is near the Malfoy’s manor in Wiltshire? Decapitation is also a big theme in the stories (did you notice all the talking heads in the third movie?). I dread to think where she may be going with that!
Again, though I can’t rule out a monarchy or a watchdog-type role, if Harry’s family members are guardians of something like the Grail, their principle role as a royal family might be the magical protection of England. Any wizard trying to take over England would then need to eliminate the Potters!
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septentrion - Jul 12, 2004 7:25 am (#4 of 565) Reply
RPS, I'm impressed ! I know need to read your theories several times to let them sink into me and maybe discuss them. You maybe speculating but that connection with Arthur's legend is indeed tooooooo interesting !
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Catherine - Jul 12, 2004 7:27 am (#5 of 565) Reply
Round Pink Spider,
I really do appreciate all of your efforts in making a fun riddle, and in posting some elaborate theories. I just think that if you really want some discussion about your riddle, asking everyone to post in invisible font is a bit much. I'm certainly not a moderator, so this is just my personal opinion.
I've enjoyed reading your posts about your pet theory, and I think it could spark a lot of discussion. I'm just not sure that we need all the hush-hush measures.
Just my two Knuts, and thanks again for your hard work. Cheers!
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Tomoé - Jul 12, 2004 7:44 am (#6 of 565) Reply
Edited Jul 12, 2004 8:46 am
Ok, so through Godric Gryffindor, Harry is parent with Arthur, Neville, transfigurated to look like the Longbottom's stillborn son, is Harry's identical twin and both of them, as descendants of Arthur will protect the Graal.
I'll mull it over.
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Round Pink Spider - Jul 12, 2004 8:26 am (#7 of 565) Reply
Edited Jul 12, 2004 9:27 am
Catherine,
Maybe you're right, as far as the invisible font thing... Perhaps warning it had the potential to be a spoiler in the first place was enough. If others feel this way too, then you can ignore my suggestion about the invisible font.
Hmmm...I'm a little confused, Tomoe. What do you mean by "Harry is parent with Arthur"? I think perhaps Harry is descended from Arthur. Or did you mean that he's related to Arthur Weasley?
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Tomoé - Jul 12, 2004 8:32 am (#8 of 565) Reply
Sorry, I meant related, French took over proper English in that sentence.
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popkin - Jul 12, 2004 10:53 am (#9 of 565) Reply
Round Pink Spider, your theory really beats the "Dumbledore is Ron" chess play theory all to heck. It was really full of holes, but we're still debating its logic. I don't see any gaping holes in your theory. I guess I'll just wait and see if you turn out to be right.
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haymoni - Jul 12, 2004 11:04 am (#10 of 565) Reply
Edited Jul 12, 2004 12:05 pm
Could the "twins" be Hagrid and Grawp?
I realize that they are not literally twins but they are brothers and they are different.
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Round Pink Spider - Jul 12, 2004 11:55 am (#11 of 565) Reply
There are many "twin" pairs: the Patils, Fred and George, possibly Albus and Aberforth... But I believe Snape's riddle is about the heart of HbP, and Hagrid and Grawp, while a part of the overall picture, probably aren't the heart of the story. I think Grawp represents the "good side" among the giants, as Firenze and Dobby do for their species.
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Angel of the North - Jul 12, 2004 1:23 pm (#12 of 565) Reply
In Astrology there is the concept of 'Time Twins' - people born not more than 10 miles apart and within an hour of each other. (I've heard variants on a theme, but that is the one I'm most familiar with).
I don't think that Neville and Harry are Physical twins, but that they have chosen to be twins, complementary personalities that can be told apart by their mental scars.
From what I understand, JKR is a socialist, and therefore I can see her having inheritance by merit, in which the Sorting Hat clams up until the next heir is ready.
My big question - which of the Four Founders was a Legilimens, and what happens if a natural-born-Occlumens is confronted with the sorting hat...
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Stringer - Jul 12, 2004 2:46 pm (#13 of 565) Reply
Edited Jul 12, 2004 3:48 pm
I find this theory to be very interesting.
It would explain the many times Harry and Neville have been brought together:
Harry saving Neville's rememberall.
Harry finding out about Neville's parents.
Snape’s hatred for Neville and Harry.
Neville going with them to duel Malfoy, and finding the trap door.
Harry using Neville's name on the night bus.
Moody giving Neville the information for Harry to find for the second task.
Neville training with Harry in the DA meetings.
Neville being able to see the Thestrals.
Neville being brought into Umbridge’s office, and being included to go to the ministry of magic.
It just seemed Neville is added into a lot of Storylines, when the story could go forward without mention of him.
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Round Pink Spider - Jul 12, 2004 2:56 pm (#14 of 565) Reply
Edited Jul 12, 2004 3:58 pm
Thanks, Stringer.
You know, I didn't think of it until after I posted this morning, but it's really revealing, if you look at the way Neville shows up in the Chamber when Harry is cornered. He comes in and says (through his broken nose), "He's dot alone! He's got be!" (I think those are approximately the right words--don't have the book here.)
Harry's not alone. He's got Neville.
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Denise P. - Jul 12, 2004 3:15 pm (#15 of 565) Reply
Edited Jul 12, 2004 4:16 pm
Tomoé - Jul 12, 2004 8:18 am
Where did you get those fact from Arthur's legend? There a lot of Codswallop around I just want to make sure we have facts, not Arthurian fannon.
Now, heraldry. We know Henry II arms are "Gules a lion rampant or" (On a red background, a yellow lion on its rear legs looking to the left side of the shield), but we don't know exactly what's Gryffindor arms are, just there is a golden lion on a red background. If the lion is "rampant guardant" (like above but looking at us instead of to the left) we have brand new arms even if Harry can barely make the difference. If the lion looks to the right (like in Hogwarts' crest at the beginning of each book) we have brand new arms all over again. I just looked in my books, the crest illustration is not credited, so it should be JKR's illustration, right? Anyway, that doesn't mean anything as JKR doesn't seem to know much about heraldry (yellow and gold being different colors, really! -_-)
I don't think the arms of Henry II should be liked to Godric Gryffindor (Godric lived a century before Henry anyway and we know who Henry's parent were).
Round Pink Spider - Jul 12, 2004 9:54 am
The few bits of Arthurian legend I mentioned are from Le Morte d'Arthur.
Good heavens! I never meant to imply that Godric Gryffindor's arms are identical to Henry II's. Sorry about the confusion! I was drawing a parallel between the vague description "a golden lion on a red background" and the prevalence of similar lions in the coats of arms of English royalty of the past. Rereading what I wrote, though, I can see why my words might have someone knowledgeable about heraldry "up in arms." I am NOT an expert in heraldry!
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Hollywand - Jul 12, 2004 4:10 pm (#16 of 565) Reply
Great theory Spidey, with some lovely supporting background. You might want to check out the Longbottom thread about their stay at St. Mungo's Janus ward 49---it fits nicely with your twin theory. :-)
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S.E. Jones - Jul 12, 2004 4:25 pm (#17 of 565) Reply
I don't know about Neville and Harry being actual brothers, more brothers in circumstance or something (literary twins, not actual twins).
Anyway, when I first read your riddle on the other thread, I'd guessed most of this from that, but I said I disagreed. What I disagreed with was the Neville=Oak King thing. I was thinking more along the lines of Voldemort somehow being the oak since it seems to me that he was born in mid-winter which would be the opposite of Harry's mid-summer birth. Also, they are like mirror images and direct opposites. That seems like a contradiction, doesn't it. I mean, one is all the light of the same things that the other is all the dark of.... I think that makes sense....
I must say, though, that your "Two Neptunes" comments have me thinking, though. I definitely agree the two planets point to Harry and Neville....
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definitelyCuivienen - Jul 12, 2004 4:39 pm (#18 of 565) Reply
Just one point that bothers me about this theory -- if Neville is the HBP and Harry's hidden twin, then Harry is also a half-blood prince, and JKR has explicitly stated that Harry is not the HBP. (Of course this is logical, too -- Harry Potter and Harry Potter as the book title?)
Might want to try to tighten ends on that one.
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Denise P. - Jul 12, 2004 4:50 pm (#19 of 565) Reply
Not necessarily. Neville can be the HBP and his twin cannot be. It is a matter of birth order. If that is the case, JKR would be correct in saying Harry is not the HBP.
Look at England's monarchy. If Prince Charles had a twin brother, that brother would not be the Crown Prince no matter that they are twins.
We don't know what exactly the HBP entails, is it a title inherited, is a specific person, what is it? That being the case, it would be possible, if this theory were true, for Neville to hold that title and not Harry.
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S.E. Jones - Jul 12, 2004 5:04 pm (#20 of 565) Reply
Edited Jul 12, 2004 6:07 pm
Couldn't it also be true for Gryffindor to be the HBP without his heirs inheriting the title (i.e. nickname)? I mean, it could still be important that someone is his heir and that he was called that at some point in time without his heirs inheriting the same nickname.... Richard II wasn't called "The Black Prince", even though that was his father's nickname....
What I'm saying is, if the "Half Blood Prince" is a nickname for Godric, his heirs wouldn't inherit it, just the title that went with his family (Sir whatever or Prince whatever....)...
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Round Pink Spider - Jul 12, 2004 5:14 pm (#21 of 565) Reply
Cuivienen,
JKR says Harry is not THE Half-blood Prince, the one in the title. She never said he couldn't be A half-blood prince. I said that I think Gryffindor is a royal line. And remember the way that James acted? It could just have been because he was a spoiled only child or a rich kid...but it could also have been that he was overly proud of his descent from Godric Gryffindor.
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Round Pink Spider - Jul 12, 2004 5:19 pm (#22 of 565) Reply
I agree with you, Sarah. I have no real opinion on the issue of a title for Harry. If anything, I think that his family may simply be responsible for something like the Grail.
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popkin - Jul 12, 2004 6:47 pm (#23 of 565) Reply
Hagrid has an oak wand. Does that figure into your theory at all?
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Ozymandias - Jul 12, 2004 9:55 pm (#24 of 565) Reply
After reading your riddle and the link you provided about holly and oak, I also noted that doors, especially at Hogwarts, usually seem to be made of oak.
I think the theory is great, but the part about the Fisher King confused me. You seem to be saying that Harry is both Percival and the Fisher King, and that Dumbledore is also the Fisher King. Also, what do you make of the fact that one of Dumbledore's names is Percival?
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zelmia - Jul 12, 2004 11:08 pm (#25 of 565) Reply
Edited Jul 13, 2004 12:29 am
Well, I make it that Percy Weasley was named for him - after a fashion.
I think you need to be VERY careful when you suggest things like "James could have transfigured Neville to look like the Longbottom's stillborn son." For one thing, what purpose does it really serve? Yes, his "true identity" is hidden. But it smacks just a bit too much of "Lupin is really James Potter" for my taste. For another... well, it's just kind of creepy in my opinion.
I guess I just don't understand what purpose it would really serve. I know that his true identity (assuming he has another) is hidden from everyone. But as Rowling herself points out, a wizard can make him- or herself un-findable the way a location can be made unplottable. So why go to such morbid extremes? This seems, frankly, too far-fetched even for the imagined world of Harry Potter.
What I think is that the two are "spiritual" twins. They share the common bond of the Prophecy because either of them could have been "chosen". Neville wasn't, but he will always be the "one who wasn't" if you follow me.
Neville's destiny is linked to Harry's because he could just as easily have been "the one". But a simple figurative coin flip kept him from being that "one". As the two boys grow in both experience and power (and in especially Neville's case, confidence) they will come to know how similar they really are; something Harry has already begun to discover.
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Round Pink Spider - Jul 13, 2004 4:21 am (#26 of 565) Reply
Edited Jul 13, 2004 5:26 am
Yes, I'm aware that Hagrid has an oak wand, Popkin. And even Hagrid said that they're in the same boat, both being half-blood and orphans. If they're the "twins," though, obviously it isn't in any physical sense! Besides, he wasn't in the Hog's Head that day... But maybe Harry and Hagrid will end up coming into some sort of conflict.
Ozymandius, I'm not trying to imply that either Harry or Dumbledore is the Fisher King. They both share characteristics of the Fisher King. Both have been wounded, apparently, and from the way Dumbledore spoke in OotP, I would guess both have suffered, although Dumbledore's may have been primarily spiritual (hard to know). Harry has most of the characteristics of Percival now, but maybe in his youth Dumbledore was like that, and made some terrible mistake for which he has suffered.
Zelmia...well, there are lots of people that really dislike the "Remus is James" theory, and they're probably going to feel the same way about mine. But if the Potters were vital to England or the Wizarding world in some way, and if there were only three of them, with James out there risking his life fighting Voldemort, and Voldemort wanting to kill the Potter's son(s) because of the prophecy, and a traitor in the Order... well, I can imagine going to some great extremes to protect at least one of those baby boys. The Fidelius Charm certainly didn't save Harry! If they were physical twins, keeping them in the same house wasn't very safe, and just having the Longbottoms take one to raise wouldn't have been enough if Voldemort wanted to eliminate all the Potters. Remember what Dumbledore said, that even his most complex charms and enchantments wouldn't have been enough to protect Harry in the long run. And JKR deliberately pointed out that James' wand was good for transfiguration.
As far as "spiritual twins," that's what I thought originally, and you could be right...But JKR is so fond of using jokes to convey information, and that little joke of Fudge's is still nagging at me. If she'd left out the word "identical", I'd be right behind you. But then, I thought she was implying a "spiritual royalty" of some sort too, until she came out with the title "Half-blood Prince"!!! Apparently she really means to go through with some sort of literal royalty, although I have no idea how she's going to do it. That was what gave me the nerve to come out with this theory in the first place: if she was going to have a literal prince, maybe Harry and Neville are literal twins.
I won't really argue the point of Neville's parentage with anyone, because it's all just guesswork. Neville could come back with an oak wand, and they still could be only "spiritual twins." I'm going to hold out for them being real twins, because it's just the sort of weird plot twist JKR would introduce. But I have no problem with anyone not believing it. My own daughter didn't believe it, until we found those lines in Snape's riddle. As I said, you're in good company!
On a different topic (getting long here), someone over on the Half-blood Prince thread pointed out that I had my dates shuffled, and there's at least 400 years between Arthur's and Gryffindor's times. Granted that wizards live a lot longer than muggles, that's still a bit of a stretch for a father-son relationship, especially since Arthur was a muggle. I was working from Le Morte d'Arthur, which takes more of a medieval tone. But I still suspect Godric Gryffindor is the Half-blood Prince, although it weakens my case. I also still think Arthur, Merlin, or both are going to come into his ancestry, because the references to royalty and Arthurian legend are so strong.
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Hollywand - Jul 13, 2004 9:11 am (#27 of 565) Reply
Well, it is interesting, the mention the birth dates of Neville and Harry are the same, and the astrological connections fly around in Trelawney's class, along with the Prophecy...Ron mentions two Neptunes. Both of the boys "born as the seventh month dies". Nice synchronicity.
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Gemini12602 - Jul 13, 2004 9:32 am (#28 of 565) Reply
I think the spiritual twin thing is very possibly, but not actual twins. It’s just as far-fetched, or maybe even more so than Lupin is James.
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S.E. Jones - Jul 13, 2004 11:12 pm (#29 of 565) Reply
Edited Jul 14, 2004 12:24 am
My major problem with the theory is this: The Holly and The Oak act to counterbalance each other, like yin and yang (sp?), when one dies off the other is at full bloom, etc. Neville and Harry don't represent, to me, a cycle but, instead, the same arc or a cycle. They are born at the same time. Oak represents strength, endurance, long life, etc. (mainly going from memory here) but I don't see how that fits into the story. However, Harry and Voldemort do form a nice, neat, cycle. Harry is all the light and Voldemort all the dark of the same things, like two sides of a coin. Their wands even hold this cycle analogy. Yew, in this sense, has some symbolic purpose in the story, taking the place of oak, in my view. I think it would ruin the story to have Neville be Harry blood twin rather than have Neville be the pureblooded son of powerful Aurors (everything Voldemort should have feared based on his own ideology, but he still chose the half-blood). I think the way it is, it is far more poetic and caters to a greater literary theme (this fated match of good against evil).
EDIT: Trelawny suggested that Harry was born in mid-winter, though he's in fact born in mid-summer (end of July). If Tom was born in mid-winter (end of January), he would be exactly opposite Harry and acting as the Oak King (this would also explain how Tom was 16 at the end of his 5th year if he'd had his birthday in January or February). As a side note, Yew is also an evergreen. This would be another good parallel between the evergreen Holly and Yew....
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riddikulus - Jul 14, 2004 3:31 am (#30 of 565) Reply
As much as I appreciate all the work involved, for you to create this theory... I'd personally be highly disappointed with JKR if any of it was correct. Hope that doesn't offend you... but I'd expect more from her than to get to the end of this series and find Neville is Harrys twin. Noooooooooooooooo
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Round Pink Spider - Jul 14, 2004 6:17 am (#31 of 565) Reply
I'm not offended, but I must admit I think it's kind of funny, all this fuss over the idea of Neville and Harry being twins...
I remember, the day people heard the title Harry Potter and the Half-blood Prince, reading a few people's posts that they were disappointed with the title, which they felt to be too prosaic. If, several years ago, someone had posted that they thought Voldemort wanted to eliminate Harry because of a prophecy, I'll bet a lot of people would have said that the prophecy idea was too cliché, and they hoped she wouldn't do it. I believe that JKR claims on her website that she went to some forum and posted her "ideas" about what would happen in books 6 and 7, and they were roundly rejected.
All of us come to these discussions with our own ideas. If someone else's theory conflicts with our ideas, we're not likely to be convinced. I dare say all of us will be surprised with some plot twist she comes up with in book 6!
Totally aside from the literal vs. spiritual twin issue, Sarah, part of the problem Harry has with Voldemort, you could say, is that he weakens after the winter solstice and becomes more vulnerable. If Neville is the opposite, he could strengthen Harry in his weakness and help him resist, as he did in the Death Chamber. Harry was just about to lose to the Death Eaters when Neville came charging in to help. And he gave Harry the extra time he needed to last until the Order showed up.
But it is true that Harry and Voldemort are very much a yin/yang, weak where the other is strong (aaaahhh...the zen of HP!). As I commented before, there are many "pairs": Ron and Harry, Harry and Draco, Harry and Voldemort, Dumbledore and Voldemort, Harry and Hagrid... I could go on, but the point is that each pair has a relationship with give and take, and in each case that give-and-take brings something to the story.
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S.E. Jones - Jul 14, 2004 1:46 pm (#32 of 565) Reply
True, there are many pairs, but I see Harry and Voldemort as the pair in the story. They are the good and evil that is fighting here and thus the cycle that must be represented.....
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MickeyCee3948 - Jul 14, 2004 2:12 pm (#33 of 565) Reply
Round Pink Spider--this is my first post so forgive any major errors. I love your theory and agree with a great deal of it. I also agree with some of the others who find more of a spiritual bonding between Harry and Neville rather than identical. I believe that the reason for Snape being a spy for the order is because of the death of Lily. I believe his hatred of Harry is the same hatred he had for James. How many times have we heard how much Harry looks exactly like James and I believe Harry's attitude is much like James’. Maybe not as arrogant but just as much a rebel. I am really wondering how Wormtail is going to repay Harry and where Sirius' mirror is going to fit into the whole thing.
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Sherbie Lemon - Jul 14, 2004 5:28 pm (#34 of 565) Reply
Edited Jul 14, 2004 6:29 pm
S.E. Jones - "I see Harry and Voldemort as the pair in the story. They are the good and evil that is fighting here and thus the cycle that must be represented..... "
I completely agree, Sarah. Like many who have posted, I do not believe in the slightest that Harry and Neville are physical twins. I do however, believe that they have many things in common and have a special bond (even if they do not realize this yet). Yet that does not make them twins, nor does it signify anything beyond what has already been revealed.
I agree that transfiguring a baby into a stillborn infant is a bit morbid and a stretch for even the Potterverse. I would be quite disturbed if this was to be true, not to mention disappointed. As has been said many times on this forum, the books are called "Harry Potter and the ____" not "Neville Longbottom and the _____." If Neville was revealed to be Harry's secret twin it would totally diminish Harry's role and purpose. I would feel highly betrayed if Neville became as important as Harry in the completion and conclusion of the series.
Although I appreciate all the effort and research that went into this theory, I think that it may be too complex to work. True, JKR does draw from mythology and legends, yet I do not think she follows them as closely as this theory suggests. Sometimes the circumstances surrounding events and occurrences in the HP world are much more simple than we originally plan them to be (think prophecy), while other times they are much more complicated (think Scabbers and the Marauders). In this case, I do not think it will be as intricate as Round Pink Spider theorizes.
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Robert Dierken - Jul 14, 2004 5:30 pm (#35 of 565) Reply
In Le Morte d'Arthur the second sword in a stone is found in the spring of the year 550, so King Arthur is from a much earlier time than Godric Gryfindor. Godric would not be the son of Arthur, but could be descended from somebody in the Arthurian legends.
There are some actual historical references to Arthur, who battled the Saxons in the early 500's.
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Round Pink Spider - Jul 14, 2004 5:43 pm (#36 of 565) Reply
Oh, I agree with you, Sarah. There's no question that Harry and Voldemort are the most important pair in the story, and that their conflict is the big conflict. I simply disagree that the Holly/Oak thing represents Harry and Voldemort. Harry has a holly wand, which is why Harry is associated with holly. Voldemort does not have an oak wand. The Saturn reference is easily explained by the fact that holly was associated by Romans with Saturn and the Saturnalia, which I believe occurred in mid-winter. It's a typical Trelawney perception: she Sees, but she misinterprets what she Sees.
Holly is associated with self-sacrifice. Yew is associated with immortality. These wand woods represent Harry and Voldemort very well. All the darkness of Voldemort's character is directed toward his own aggrandizement at the expense of others, and I suspect that his selfish desire for personal immortality will be his downfall in the end.
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mischa fan - Jul 14, 2004 5:46 pm (#37 of 565) Reply
MickeyCee3948: I believe that the reason for Snape being a spy for the order is because of the death of Lily.
Hi Mickey, welcome to the forum, Snape would have had to of been a spy before Voldemort Killed Lily, since minutes after he killed her, he lost all power trying to kill Harry.
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thetheatre62442 - Jul 14, 2004 6:14 pm (#38 of 565) Reply
Round Pink Spider, you have got my attention. I think your theory is the best one I've ever seen. I'm sitting here at my computer reading this and gasping out loud! The things you say! My very favorite one of yours was the symbology in CoS with the bloody cards, the bones and such in Borgin and Burkes. That was brilliant!
As much as I want to think that Harry and Neville are twins, I have this other theory in my head about the HBP. My friend and I have been discussing Harry theories at work together, and we both really think that it would be a great twist if DUDLEY were to be the Half Blood Prince. And throw Petunia in there somewhere, as a Squib or something. We've not discussed it thoroughly obviously, but I still think it would be such a great plot if that were to happen. Does anyone else think that? Am I alone? Does it make any sense? Send me your thoughts!
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S.E. Jones - Jul 14, 2004 6:16 pm (#39 of 565) Reply
Edited Jul 14, 2004 7:17 pm
RPS: I simply disagree that the Holly/Oak thing represents Harry and Voldemort. Harry has a holly wand, which is why Harry is associated with holly. Voldemort does not have an oak wand.... Holly is associated with self-sacrifice. Yew is associated with immortality. These wand woods represent Harry and Voldemort very well.
Yes, your second point here is the point I am trying to make. Holly v.s Yew has a symbolic purpose in the story. Holly vs. Oak doesn't. Oak has no real impact on the main cycle of good and evil that Harry and Voldemort represent. Holly and Yew do. Yew could replace Oak in the cycle, in a somewhat figurative sense, is what I was saying. One is strong when the other is weak. One is striving while the other is dying. Yin and Yang, again. Harry and Voldemort in my view, pure and simple, and thus Holly and Yew (their symbols in wood). My point about Trewlany's comment was that it also points out another part of this cycle. Harry's born in mid-summer, Voldemort might be born in mid-winter. Yes, there could be a connection between Saturn and Holly, but where is the specific connection to Oak here? Yes, she reads the signs, she just can't always interpret correctly. So, how do we know that she wasn't reading the signs for Voldemort and wasn't interpretting them correctly to know that they didn't go to Harry but to Voldemort?...
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thetheatre62442 - Jul 14, 2004 6:25 pm (#40 of 565) Reply
Holly is associated with self-sacrifice. Yew is associated with immortality. These wand woods represent Harry and Voldemort very well. ---Round Pink Spider
Harry's wand is Holly. Voldemort's wand is Yew. If these are correct representations, then Yew equals Voldemort which equals IMMORTALITY. And then Holly equals Harry which equals SELF-SACRIFICE.
So, Voldemort survives by being immortal and Harry (now knowing of the prophecy made of him and Voldemort), sacrifices himself to quote-unquote save the world?
Am I mad in thinking this??
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Round Pink Spider - Jul 14, 2004 6:39 pm (#41 of 565) Reply
Robert,
If you scroll all the way back up to post # 26, you'll see that I came straight over here after you made your point on the "Half-blood Prince" thread and agreed that I got the dates mixed up, and that a father-son relationship between Godric and Arthur is unfeasible.
On the subject of the "identical twin" thing again...This is obviously an emotionally-charged issue, so I think it would be best to go back to the reason it came up.
I want to say, first, that the "transfiguring into the image of the stillborn baby" bit is entirely my own invention, and my own explanation for how it could have been done. For the sake of the discussion, I'd like to set that aside, since JKR is far more creative than I am, and I'm sure she could come up with something more creative and less objectionable.
I believe I said in a previous post that I have one, and only one reason for my idea that Harry and Neville could be identical twins, and that was Fudge's comment:
...was it Potter’s identical twin in the Hog’s Head that day? [underlining is mine] Or is there the usual simple explanation involving a reversal of time, a dead man coming back to life, and a couple of invisible dementors?” (OotP, p. 614.)
As I said in my theory, JKR carefully put this weird comment with other details we know are true. When she does this, it is often her way of conveying a clue.
Every other “twin" clue I mentioned could easily be interpreted as Harry and Neville being joined as a pair by the prophecy, "spiritual twins" as has been suggested. And one clue is just one clue. That's why I said, to those of you who just don't believe it, you're in good company. But the line is still there, so the question is still open. Our own personal feelings aside, only JKR can answer the question, and we'll just have to wait for book 6 or an interview to find out.
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Round Pink Spider - Jul 14, 2004 6:58 pm (#42 of 565) Reply
Wow! I can't keep up! I'm such a slow poster, because I think everything to death...If anyone feels neglected because I skipped their post, it's just because everyone's here posting at once. It's like being caught in a hailstorm of e-owls...
Holly vs Yew has a symbolic purpose in the story. Holly vs Oak doesn't. Actually, Sarah, we don’t know that. It could have an as-yet-unrevealed purpose. I think JKR threw in that fragment of prophecy, “At the solstice will come a new…”, for a reason. We don’t know the reason yet, but to assume that, because we don’t know the reason that there isn’t one, is a capital mistake.
...we both really think that it would be a great twist if DUDLEY were to be the Half Blood Prince. I've seen this suggested on the "Half-blood Prince" thread. Certainly I can't discount it, especially since JKR has said in an interview that someone is going to use magic who wasn't supposed to be able to (don't quote me on the wording there, that's from memory). But I have reasons for thinking it's someone else, which I'll post at some point if I can get out from under all the owl feathers (hehe).
So, Voldemort survives by being immortal and Harry (now knowing of the prophecy made of him and Voldemort), sacrifices himself to quote-unquote save the world?
Well, if you're mad, so am I, because, yeah, that's almost what I'm expecting, EXCEPT that I think the connection between them will "short-circuit" Voldemort somehow, because Harry's sacrifice, made with the same sacrificial love with which his mother died, will somehow be intolerable to Voldemort. (And no, I don't think Harry will end up dead in the end.)
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Ozymandias - Jul 14, 2004 7:13 pm (#43 of 565) Reply
Edited Jul 14, 2004 8:14 pm
...was it Potter’s identical twin in the Hog’s Head that day? [underlining is mine] Or is there the usual simple explanation involving a reversal of time, a dead man coming back to life, and a couple of invisible dementors?” (OotP, p. 614.)
I think that this quote can be interpreted another way as well. The word “or" is important here. The structure of the sentence is twins OR 'the usual simple explanation So I see this comment as confirming that Harry does not have a twin. The "usual simple explanation" is something that sounds farfetched, but is in fact the truth. The invisibility cloak coupled with the secret passage certainly sounds farfetched to Fudge, but we know that it's true. Therefore, since the answer is the usual simple explanation, Harry does not have an identical twin.
I love the theory, RPS, but I'm going to join those who have said that Harry and Neville are spiritual twins, linked by the prophecy. I'm guessing that the Order will become overconfident in Harry's ability to vanquish Voldemort, and he will falter in some way (around the solstice, of course). Then Neville will come in and save the day. I can't wait to see what Neville's new wand is made of. Come to think of it, what was his father's wand made of?
Ooh, another thought. With the symbolic meanings of yew and holly, what would happen if Harry and Voldie swapped wands?
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Round Pink Spider - Jul 14, 2004 7:18 pm (#44 of 565) Reply
“This is a reposting of a post by Contess Lillein Asend on the "Half-blood Prince" thread.
Round Pink Spider,
Is it Dumbledore's words she is going by. He said that Harry had no other living relatives. But if James did not tell him about the secret keeper switch, maybe he doesn't know about the twin? Or maybe he is that secret keeper and could not reveal it.
Do you think "essence divided" is referring to between the twins?
Let me know
Also on the twin thing, Explains emphasis on James is good at transfiguration and Lili is good at charms.”
It's unclear if Dumbledore would have known about the twins, if in fact they are twins. Yes, James kept other information from Dumbledore. It was a time of great uncertainty, and everyone in the Order knew there was a traitor (although I find it hard to believe that anyone could have doubted Dumbledore!). It's obvious, looking at those first pages of SS/PS, that Dumbledore was keeping information from Prof. McGonagall. At that moment, no one even had a wrong guess as to who the traitor was, and murder had just been committed.
No, I don't think the "in essence divided" referred to the twins. I've visited the silver machine thread too, and I've seen several theories put forward. I don't think we have enough information to do more than speculate. I thought the strongest idea I heard on the subject was that Dumbledore was trying to determine whether Harry saw the vision because he and Voldemort are essentially one person, or whether they are simply bonded together, but "in essence divided."
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S.E. Jones - Jul 14, 2004 7:19 pm (#45 of 565) Reply
Edited Jul 14, 2004 8:29 pm
I can't see how the Twins thing is tied into the Holly/Oak thing. To me, as I've said, the Holly is aganst the Oak, each doing the opposite of the other (one strives while the other dies, etc, in a cycle). Twins would, in my mind, work to the same purpose, not opposing purposes. Neville and Harry are definitely "literary twins" to me. They seem to, in my mind, come together to form one half of an arc more than a cycle, if they can be joined in any way at all. But, they still don't oppose as the Holly and Oak do. Harry and Voldemort oppose each other.....
Edit: By the way, I don't think the Saturn festival was in mid-winter but in the beginning of winter. Isn't it around what is now Christmas time? That is traditionally considered early winter. Mid-winter is the end of January-beginning of February....
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Round Pink Spider - Jul 14, 2004 7:39 pm (#46 of 565) Reply
Thanks for the compliment, Ozy. We can just "agree to disagree," as my husband likes to say. To the wand-swapping thing, I hope it never comes up. I wouldn't even want to touch a wand that had been used to commit so many murders. ICK!
Sarah, I wanted to make a quick comment on the "no need for the Harry-Neville" connection". I could imagine Neville being the object of Harry's act of sacrifice. "Saving the world" is all very well, but in the end, people sacrifice for the people they love, not for something as abstract as "saving the world." Dumbledore couldn't even force himself to make Harry miserable for the sake of those nameless thousands, because he found himself loving Harry.
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Round Pink Spider - Jul 14, 2004 7:55 pm (#47 of 565) Reply
Sorry, Sarah, it happened again, you beat me to the post...
Yes, you're right, I used the word "mid-winter" because you did, and you did because Trelawney did. Actually, it's around the winter solstice, and so is Christmas, which is part of why holly is associated with Christmas.
I do think that Harry and Neville are going to come into conflict in the next book, but maybe not intentionally...I'm expecting that nasty little cactus of Neville's to cause all kinds of problems. There was a reason Neville "accidentally" transferred his ears onto a cactus with a Switching spell in GoF (p. 237)! (Just think visually...)
And yes, I know the Celtic tradition is that Holly and Oak are "in conflict" with one another, but essentially they "need" one another. They form a unified whole, like yin and yang, each strong when the other is weak, so that there is green in the forest year-round. That is the union that needs to be preserved. There is no cycle between Harry and Voldemort. It's more "the irresistible force meets the immoveable object."
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S.E. Jones - Jul 14, 2004 8:02 pm (#48 of 565) Reply
Edited Jul 14, 2004 9:06 pm
RPS: Sarah, I wanted to make a quick comment on the "no need for the Harry-Neville" connection".
I didn't mean there couldn't be a Harry-Neville connection of some sort. In fact, I think there could be, as I said in my last post. I just don't think they'll be playing the part of Holly and Oak, opposing each other as Holly and Oak do, but rather making up the same arc that makes half of the cycle.... I hope that made sense....
Found something interesting concerning Saturn. I've been looking at a lot of astrology sights and apparently there is something called the "Saturn-Neptune complex", or something with a similar name (it's always the Saturn-Neptune something). Apparently these two planets sort of represent the opposite of each other in some way. Saturn representing mainly the material and Neptune the ethereal or divine. Something apparently really nifty happens when you happen to have both come together. Anyway, I find this interesting because Harry, while doing his chart, finds Neptune prominent at his birth, and Trelawny suggested it was Saturn (and I think she was actually reading Voldemort hear). If Voldemort was really born in mid-winter, not only would his birthday be opposite Harry, but apparently his planetary sign (on his star chart) would too. Nice, neat little parallels and contradictions....
EDIT: RPS: There is no cycle between Harry and Voldemort. It's more "the irresistible force meets the immoveable object."
I disagree immensely. Harry and Voldemort form a perfect cycle. Light and dark, chaos and order, war and peace, good and evil. These are all traditional cycles. Yin and Yang is one of these (chaos and order, can't remember which is which though). They are the opposing forces of the same things, just like Harry and Voldemort.
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Land of the Shire - Jul 14, 2004 8:15 pm (#49 of 565) Reply
I think the whole thing is a very good theory (especially part 1, the Arthurian legend bit). I don't think that for part 2 to work Neville would necessarily have to be Harry's biological twin. Perhaps that they could both be indicated by Trelawney's prophecy is relation enough. It is obvious that JKR intends Neville to be a foil for Harry.
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Round Pink Spider - Jul 14, 2004 8:27 pm (#50 of 565) Reply
Edited Jul 14, 2004 9:30 pm
Sarah,
I think that this is where my husband would drop in his usual, "We can agree to disagree." I can be cool with your interpretation being different than mine.
Land of the Shire, welcome aboard. We've had quite a ride in the last few hours. Some time in the next few days, I'm hoping to post an extended interpretation of Snape's riddle in light of the connection between Harry and Neville (biological or whatever). If you didn't already see it, I withdrew my suggestion that Godric was Arthur's son, because someone pointed out that I got my dates wrong. But I still suspect there's some descent from Arthur there, since (as I said) the evidence points to the Gryffindors being the princely line, and the Arthurian references seem quite strong (at least to me).
It's actually 11:30 here, not 9:30 as the time on the post says, so no more play time for me tonight.
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S.E. Jones - Jul 14, 2004 8:36 pm (#51 of 565) Reply
We can agree to disagree.
Ah, the life's blood of this forum.... I can live with that....
And, I gotta say, I still like the Arthurian/Godric connections. I'm glad someone else finally saw them too. My brother was going nuts listening to me crow about them. I was screaming "yes, I'm not the only one!" when I read your riddle, RPS....
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Round Pink Spider - Jul 15, 2004 4:49 am (#52 of 565) Reply
Edited Jul 15, 2004 5:52 am
Sarah,
I didn't know you thought that! It's a small world...
Then I would guess you've noticed that southern Wales (one possible location for Godric's Hollow -I know, another "agree to disagree") is where Merlin was supposedly born (Carmarthen), and Cornwall, where I believe the Weasleys live, is where Tintagel (Arthur's birthplace) was supposed to be located? This is part of the reason I believe that:
1) the Potters and the Weasleys are distantly related;
2) both are of Gryffindor descent;
3) Godric was somehow descended from both Merlin AND Arthur;
4) Harry and Ron both seem to be showing Seer-tendencies (Merlin was an ancestor)
I also think that Harry and Ginny are going to end up together. Although I can't remember the exact quote (I'm not Hermione!), JKR said on her website that the one Harry ends up with has to do with his destiny, or something like that. Since I think Harry is an avatar of Arthur, it makes sense that he'd end up with Ginevra (Guinevere). Besides, she really likes him (she keeps turning SCARlet when the subject comes up -- did you notice?).
What is it with Potter boys and young ladies with red hair?
(I'm anticipating screams from those who think Harry's 'ship is going to unite the houses! Actually, I think Harry HIMSELF is the uniting factor. In OotP, Harry finally brought together Gryffindors, Ravenclaws, and Hufflepuffs in Dumbledore's Army. I'm expecting Harry to make friends with a disenfranchised member of Slytherin next. My money's on Teddy Nott; he doesn't seem to be part of Malfoy's little circle, and his dad was abandoned by the other DE's in the Department of Mysteries. Maybe he's the one who'll switch houses!)
Sorry, shouldn't be treating the thread as a back fence to gossip over...
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S.E. Jones - Jul 15, 2004 10:01 am (#53 of 565) Reply
Yes, Harry will unite the Houses as Arthur united the Brits...
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Madame Librarian - Jul 15, 2004 2:26 pm (#54 of 565) Reply
RPS--I've thoroughly enjoyed reading your treatise and the ensuing lively discussion. I myself waiver back and forth on whether I agree or not, but I feel there are definitely strong possibilities in it of the way things may go. My only concern is that because JKR is so clever at red herrings, and often in interviews seems to take the stance that she'd never make things that byzantine or weird, that your elegant design is simply too...dare I say, complex.
Be that as it may, you are to be congratulated and I look forward to more debate.
Here's a relatively dumb observation/question that instantly popped into my mind when I read the press release about the new title. I believe it is pertinent to the twin debate on this thread. I thought for sure that my newspaper had mis-quoted when it showed the words "half blood" as two separate words, not hyphenated. In PS, usage shows pure-blood and half-blood as hyphenated words (see pg. 116, US hardcover). Once I determined that JKR herself created the title without hyphenating half blood, I started wondering if there's significance in that fact alone. In other words is the “half” in “half blood” meant to imply that whoever is the prince is only half the prince, if that makes any sense? The "job" is to be shared with the other "half" (the twin?).
Now I did not do a thorough combing of all books to be sure that the terms half-blood, pure-blood, muggle-born, etc. are always hyphenated. I won't be able to take the time just now. Does someone know off the top of his or her head? The Lexicon jumps around in usage depending on who submitted the definition or essay, so we shouldn't rely on it.
We've mentioned many times how nothing JKR does should be ignored or regarded as merely incidental--everything has bearing on the plot. Is this simply a case of some graphic designer abhorring a poor hyphen, an editor becoming a stickler for consistent usage, or is it JKR herself hitting us over the head with a massive clue?
Thoughts?
Ciao. Barb
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Catherine - Jul 15, 2004 2:42 pm (#55 of 565) Reply
Barb,
I have noticed the seeming lack of hyphen myself, and have wondered what, if anything, it means.
I won't speculate here because I have nothing important to say about it yet, but I am glad that I am not the only person to have noticed this.
I haven't seen your posts in a little while, so it's good to see you back.
Cheers!
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Round Pink Spider - Jul 15, 2004 4:03 pm (#56 of 565) Reply
Um...how bizarre.
I wouldn't know whether to ignore that or how to interpret it. I've spent a lot of my time "sleuthing" for clues in Potter books, and that's the sort of thing I would tend to ignore...but that doesn't mean there ISN'T meaning, just that I wouldn't know what to do with it. I can't imagine any way in which Harry could have a half-brother, for example, since I can't imagine JKR going there.
I've already speculated that the Weasleys are descendents of Godric also. They're pure-blood, so far as we know. It would seem that Godric's line survived better than Salazar Slytherin's, so there could be others, I suppose. But I don't know if anyone would even apply the title "Prince" to Harry, much less Ron.
In my twin theory (with which people can feel free to disagree -- willing suspension here for the sake of discussion!), obviously both Harry and Neville would be princes "of the Blood Royal", and half-bloods. Either Godric Gryffindor or Neville would be the Half-blood Prince (I'm going to include a hyphen), and which it would be would depend on how JKR brings up the subject.
If, for example, Harry overhears a Death Eater or member of the Order apply that term to someone present-day, I would expect it to be Neville; if he heard the term applied to some historical or legendary person, I would expect it to be Godric. JKR could even play with it and have HRH thinking it was Godric when it was really Neville.
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Land of the Shire - Jul 15, 2004 9:09 pm (#57 of 565) Reply
Round Pink Spider writes:
Land of the Shire, welcome aboard. We've had quite a ride in the last few hours. Some time in the next few days, I'm hoping to post an extended interpretation of Snape's riddle in light of the connection between Harry and Neville (biological or whatever). If you didn't already see it, I withdrew my suggestion that Godric was Arthur's son, because someone pointed out that I got my dates wrong. But I still suspect there's some descent from Arthur there, since (as I said) the evidence points to the Gryffindors being the princely line, and the Arthurian references seem quite strong (at least to me).
Thanks for the warm welcome! I'm quite new to the forum.
I would not discount the Gryffindor-is-Arthur's-son theory just yet. I have done my own studying and what little I know is that everyone seems to have his or own theory regarding dates.
Another possibility is that Gryffindor is the son of Merlin. Even if Arthur lived sometime before that, Merlin was around a long time. Maybe Gryffindor was the son of Merlin and that nymph Nimue (most of my research happened while I played Mordred in Camelot in high school).
That would certainly make Gryffindor a half-blood.
But I guess he wouldn't be a prince.
And at this point I'm babbling.
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S.E. Jones - Jul 15, 2004 11:45 pm (#58 of 565) Reply
Edited Jul 16, 2004 12:48 am
As I've said before, I've come up with many of RPS's Arthurian and Gryffindor connections on my own, but I definitely interpreted them differently. Amazing how we can each find the same hidden clues but find different meanings in them. But, as we've seen with Trelawny, being able to read the signs does not a seer make; it's having the ability to interpret what you've read, so we'll have to wait for HBP to see who was closer... Can't wait myself....
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Round Pink Spider - Jul 16, 2004 3:07 am (#59 of 565) Reply
I'd love to hear your own interpretations, Sarah, especially if they're different.
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Hermione Weasley - Jul 18, 2004 8:39 pm (#60 of 565) Reply
Round Pink Spider,
Interesting theory! I don't know if I agree completely with everything but I have noticed Neville taking on a more pronounced role and even a significant role in the past books. I would be completely disappointed if JKR didn't develop him further. However, you theory did hit, indirectly at least, something that has been bothering me for a long, long, long, long, long time...
And remember the way that James acted? It could just have been because he was a spoiled only child or a rich kid...
WHAT was it that James and Lily did to be able to leave that large amount of gold to Harry?? I have always assumed they died very young. They could not possibly have had extremely well paying jobs in that short amount of time (at least well enough to provide for Harry throughout his schooling) especially if half the time they were worrying about other things i.e. Order of the Phoenix, and traitors amongst them etc.
So bravo to you for at least letting my mind wonder about that!!
Hermione
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S.E. Jones - Jul 18, 2004 8:48 pm (#61 of 565) Reply
Edited Jul 18, 2004 9:50 pm
The money in the vault is inherited (James inherited it first, then left it to Harry). JKR has said so in interviews....
“AOL Chat - October 19, 2000:
Q: What did James and Lily Potter do when they were alive?
A: Well, I can't go into too much detail, because you're going to find out in future books. But James inherited plenty of money, so he didn't need a well-paid profession...”
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Hermione Weasley - Jul 18, 2004 8:59 pm (#62 of 565) Reply
S.E. That's what I'm saying, I didn't know JKR had said that and RPS's theory seemed to fit what I've been wondering. Of course, JKR's Answer also seems to fit in RPS's theory because of the whole inheritance bit and the fact she can't give too much detail "because you're going to find out in future books."
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contess lillein asend - Jul 19, 2004 4:18 am (#63 of 565) Reply
I recently came up with this theory about Harry's Family. Tell me what you think.
James is descended from the first born children of Slytherin. Lili is descended from the first born children of Gryffindor. Harry is a half-blood prince on both sides.
This would make Harry the ultimate weapon. Dumbledore and Voldemort are both inside his head trying to control the ultimate weapon (though in very different ways). Dumbledore's observation about people coming from bad families but turning out good would apply here.
The fact that he looks like James would make people think he would be on the Slytherin side but, but he has Lili's eyes which are the windows to the soul, and her soul we know was "uncommonly kind".
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contess lillein asend - Jul 19, 2004 5:10 am (#64 of 565) Reply
As to the money,
What if James Maternal Grandfather was Bowman Wright who invented the snitch. This would explain the money and why James, a chaser, was always playing with the snitch, it was a toy from childhood.
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Hermione Weasley - Jul 19, 2004 5:48 am (#65 of 565) Reply
I thought James was a seeker? Am I wrong? I don't have the books with me, they're in storage and I've been checking them out from the library!!!! AAAAAUUUUUUGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!
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contess lillein asend - Jul 19, 2004 5:53 am (#66 of 565) Reply
JK told us he was a chaser
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Sticky Glue - Jul 19, 2004 6:12 am (#67 of 565) Reply
No, I'm sure in the books James was a seeker too.
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Hermione Weasley - Jul 19, 2004 6:21 am (#68 of 565) Reply
Does anyone have a quote from the books??
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Eponine - Jul 19, 2004 6:38 am (#69 of 565) Reply
This is a quote from an online chat at scholastic.com on October 16, 2000
“What position did James play on the Gryffindor Quidditch team? Was it seeker like Harry, or something different?
James was Chaser.”
As far as the books go, the only reference to James playing seeker would be his playing with the snitch in the Penseive scene. Since she has said that he was a chaser, we have no choice but to accept it. There are those who think that he could have been both, though.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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contess lillein asend - Jul 19, 2004 7:00 am (#70 of 565) Reply
If he had been both, wouldn't she say that?
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Eponine - Jul 19, 2004 7:03 am (#71 of 565) Reply
Probably, I personally think he was just a chaser, and the movie made him a seeker. There are those who try to explain it away by saying he could have been both.
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Hermione Weasley - Jul 19, 2004 7:14 am (#72 of 565) Reply
Thanks for that link!! It's amazing but I've only read two JKR chat's and both came from the lexicon.
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S.E. Jones - Jul 19, 2004 9:24 am (#73 of 565) Reply
Contess Lillein Asend: James is descended from the first born children of Slytherin.
I'm afraid this part of your theory doesn't work. JKR has said that "Harry is NOT a descendent of Salazar Slytherin." If James was descended from his first born children, then Harry would most definitely be a descendent, which we are told he isn't.
JKRowling.com, 2004 (Rumors section):
“R: Voldemort is Harry’s real father/grandfather/close relative of some description.
A: No, no, no, no, no. You lot have been watching too much Star Wars. James is DEFINITELY Harry’s father. Doesn’t everybody Harry meets say ‘you look just like your father’? And hasn’t Dumbledore already told Harry that Voldemort is the last surviving descendent of Salazar Slytherin? Just to clarify - this means that Harry is NOT a descendent of Salazar Slytherin.”
As to the Bowman Wright discussion, that has been theorized on the 'Heir of Gryffindor' thread and a few others. You might try the Search function (type in Bowman Wright) and see what you get.
We've been arguing for quite some time about whether James was a chaser, seeker, or both. Many have pointed out that Ginny will, as of the sixth book, have played both positions, so it is certainly possible for James to have as well. The books (and movies, though not canon) do point to him being a seeker, but JKR has said he was a chaser. I'd say both for now until we're told otherwise....
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contess lillein asend - Jul 19, 2004 12:54 pm (#74 of 565) Reply
So Sorry,
Those of us who just started reading in May 2004 are still very hyper. We shall stay mum and defer to the masters.
Thanks
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S.E. Jones - Jul 19, 2004 2:11 pm (#75 of 565) Reply
No need to stay mum. If you never ask, how will you ever know? That's what the forum is here for, to bounce theories and ideas and questions off of other, like-minded people.....
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zelmia - Jul 19, 2004 3:41 pm (#76 of 565) Reply
Also, Lily is MUGGLE-born. This has been stated quite clearly in the text ("My common muggle-born mother!" CS - Ch. 17). And while technically if the wizarding line had died out by Gryffindors marrying only muggles over the last several centuries, it does make the theory of Lily being descended from Gryffindor pretty remote, both literally and figuratively.
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Round Pink Spider - Jul 19, 2004 3:50 pm (#77 of 565) Reply
What if James Maternal Grandfather was Bowman Wright who invented the snitch?
Wow, all these posts, and I wasn't around! As Sarah said, we had some very interesting discussions on the "Godric's Hollow” thread about the possibility that Godric Gryffindor helped invent Quidditch. In that vein, I think Bowman Wright might well have been an ancestor, although probably longer ago than two generations.
Those of us who just started reading in May 2004 are still very hyper. We shall stay mum and defer to the masters.
Heavens, no! I'm with Sarah! In fact, sometimes a fresh viewpoint is just what's needed. A month or two ago, my six-year-old pointed out a couple of clues to me, so please, don't be shy, and do ask questions!!! (You're lucky you only just started reading them! I started about 9 mos. before GoF came out, so I've been suffering the long waits ever since. You only have a year or so to wait before HBP (I hope!).
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Lupin is Lupin. Natch. - Jul 19, 2004 6:07 pm (#78 of 565) Reply
Edited Jul 19, 2004 7:15 pm
What a wonderful theory, Round Pink Spider. I am always amazed at the research people undertake. I simply read the books.
It matters not to me whether Harry and Neville are identical or spiritual twins, however, I think the idea of Neville being transfigured into the Longbottom’s dead baby is exactly the sort of darkness JKR embraces. I can't remember the exact quote, but after she killed off Sirius and her husband suggested not doing it, she said you have to be ruthless when writing children's books. Your theory would play into that nicely.
I also like this idea because it gives Harry family where he has none. I've always believed there is a reward for Harry at the end of these trials. However, since so many think one or the other of them will die by the end of Book 7, perhaps it just sets us up for more heartbreak.
Either way, thank you for a truly entertaining and engaging theory. As a rule, I never read long posts but I read yours word for word. (Oh, I know what you're all thinking, "for someone who doesn't read long posts she's pretty long-winded herself." To which I reply, "do as I say, not as I do."
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Half Blood Princess - Jul 19, 2004 6:24 pm (#79 of 565) Reply
Edited Jul 19, 2004 7:27 pm
First off, let me start by saying:
WOW. I have never even thought of any of these theories. I guess I am not as die- hard as I thought! I bow to the superior minds.
Second, I truly believe in the spiritual twin theory. Neville is getting so courageous and more confident that I hope he stands alongside Harry. But what if it really is Neville that the prophecy was talking about? Then Neville will die or LV. I don't think Harry will die. Another think I was thinking about was some farfetched thing: LV and Harry represent the yin and yang. If you look at the yin yang, the white (good)when at its fullest has a seed of dark (evil). Whilst the white wanes, the dark gets bigger. When the Dark is finally at its peak, there is a seed of white. The white grows and thus the cycle continues. It is also enveloped in a circle which is a symbol of infinity. Without evil there can be no good and with out good there can be no evil. Thus the cycle continues for ever. That’s what I believe anyway. I don't know if anyone is taking the symbol of the yinyang without the circles in between, but when I think of the yin yang, I see the circles with the opposite colors. Is there a bit of harry in LV? Perhaps. When Bella says that you have to mean the hatred behind the unforgivable curses (somewhere in the end of OOP) does Harry eventually show his side of LV by using the unforgivable curse with TRUE hatred? LV would have to show some good. Perhaps Harry shows him love in the end. By loving those who commit crimes, when you show love, rather than hate, it breaks the bad in someone, if the love is soooo great. Voldemort will probably relinquish. Harry's mom died with love for her son. Perhaps LV looks into Harry's eyes or something. I don't know. But it could be love that saves the day in the end.
If there are any holes in this let me know. I'd like to hear more theories!
OOPSIE --Is there a bit of harry in LV? I meant is there a bit of LV in Harry!!!
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Penny Lane. - Jul 20, 2004 3:21 am (#80 of 565) Reply
But what if it really is Neville that the prophecy was talking about?
Dumbledore says "There is no doubt...That it is you." (OOP) JKRowling has said before that when she really wants to get across some information about the Wizarding World, she gives the line to either Dumbledore or Hermione. Furthermore, Lord Voldemort already fufilled part of the prophecy when he marked Harry with that scar. There is no way it can be Neville.
Without evil there can be no good and without good there can be no evil
This is a main theme of the books. The cosmic struggle between good and evil. When "The One" vanquishes "The Dark Lord" everything should be balanced again.
But it could be love that saves the day in the end
I believe that Love will be the force that Harry possesses that "The Dark Lord" knows not of. .. I have more, but It might be better suited for a different thread.
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Hermione Weasley - Jul 20, 2004 5:48 am (#81 of 565) Reply
Half Blood Princess,
Technically LV DOES have a bit of Harry in him. He took his blood remember? So that means that there is a bit of each of them in the other.
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Round Pink Spider - Jul 20, 2004 8:32 am (#82 of 565) Reply
I think the idea of Neville being transfigured into the Longbottom’s dead baby is exactly the sort of darkness JKR embraces.
One of the most important themes in the HP stories is that Justice must be tempered with Mercy. When rules or laws (Justice) are rigidly adhered to, without Mercy, darkness can always find a way to slip through the cracks. (For example, toward the end of the First War, Crouch was enforcing Justice without Mercy, and Sirius went to prison while Peter Pettigrew went free.) That's the reason Harry is a rule-breaker: he is seeking justice, with mercy. Rigid adherence to the rules would allow darkness (that is, Voldemort) to win.
Whenever darkness flourishes, the good may be forced to make dreadful decisions in the name of mercy. Firenze was ready to break the laws of his people to fight the darkness, and he was exiled and nearly killed. To transfigure one's baby and give it to another to raise would be an equally dreadful decision, but I do believe that it fits in with this theme of "breaking the rules in the name of Mercy" (something we know James was prone to).
I also like this idea because it gives Harry family where he has none. I've always believed there is a reward for Harry at the end of these trials. However, since so many think one or the other of them will die by the end of Book 7, perhaps it just sets us up for more heartbreak.
I recall Harry saying (way back in SS/PS) that he wished he had wizard brothers, like Ron. But I don't think either of them will die (at least, not really die, in the sense of "cannot be resuscitated"). I see Harry's love for Neville as the key that may release "the power that the Dark Lord knows not." But that's book 7.
...does Harry eventually show his side of LV by using the unforgivable curse with TRUE hatred? LV would have to show some good. Perhaps Harry shows him love in the end. By loving those who commit crimes, when you show love, rather than hate, it breaks the bad in someone, if the love is soooo great. Voldemort will probably relinquish. Harry's mom died with love for her son. Perhaps LV looks into Harry's eyes or something. I don't know. But it could be love that saves the day in the end.
I do think (as I just said above) that love will save the day in the end. But I think hatred can reach a stage at which it can no longer be touched by compassion or love, at which love is utterly rejected, and I think Lord Voldemort has reached that stage. I suspect Harry's magical love would kill Voldemort, rather than save him, just as Voldemort's hate nearly killed Harry when Voldemort possessed him.
On the other hand, I think there are those among the Death Eaters on whom Harry's love might have such an effect.
Could Harry give in to that little bit of Voldemort, and do something with true hatred? Well...I'm not sure. Bella identified his use of the Crucio curse as "righteous anger," which is connected with justice, whereas true hatred has no concern for justice OR mercy. So true hatred from Harry would be really contrary to everything we've seen from him so far. Does that make it impossible? Only JKR knows for sure.
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MadelineRock - Jul 21, 2004 1:28 pm (#83 of 565) Reply
Edited Jul 21, 2004 2:30 pm
Spider, I have been toying with a theory ever since I started reading the HP books (I got in the game very late, only in May), and I was happily shocked to see that part of your theory meshes well with what I have been speculating. However, I will admit mine is a bit more... well, out there I guess, and I don't want to post it because I'll probably be burned alive... Anyways, I'd LOVE to talk to you about our theories, so if you are interested, please email me!!!
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Ozymandias - Jul 21, 2004 4:01 pm (#84 of 565) Reply
Madeline, don't be afraid to post your theory. We only dissect every little detail because, well, that's what we do. It doesn't mean we hate it; quite the contrary. I spend the most time debating the theories I find most interesting. As for being "out there," there are a lot of crazy theories going around, and I for one would love to read yours.
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Round Pink Spider - Jul 21, 2004 5:04 pm (#85 of 565) Reply
Yes, Madeline, don't be scared. If I can scrape up the nerve to claim that Harry and Neville are identical twins, you can be sure I won't be too hard on you. They haven't burned me yet (although Madame Pomfrey is still treating some of the tooth marks)!
:-)
By the way, I did send you an e-mail.
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Casey - Jul 26, 2004 5:35 am (#86 of 565) Reply
Wow. This thread has OFFICIALLY blown my mind.
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contess lillein asend - Jul 26, 2004 5:55 am (#87 of 565) Reply
Round Pink, I was watching COS yesterday and noticed in McGonagall’s class room she had two blackboards, both with "Transfiguration Lesson 7", one on either side of the room, but....one was a mirror image of the other.....HHHHMMMMMM>
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Round Pink Spider - Jul 26, 2004 8:41 am (#88 of 565) Reply
Casey, thanks.
Contess, wow, I missed that; but then I wasn't sitting through CoS with a notebook (as I was with PoA!). Actually, if you're right, mirror images are in all three movies. In the first, of course, it's the Mirror of Erised. And in the third, we see the mirrored front of the cabinet with the boggart. And then there's "double, double, toil and trouble." (hope you noticed that, Contess!)
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Steve Newton - Jul 26, 2004 8:51 am (#89 of 565) Reply
RPS,
In OOTP when Moody shows Harry the picture of the original OOTP. Harry describes Neville as sort of a mirror image of himself in that he looks exactly like his mother. Harry, of course, looks exactly like his father. Except for the eyes. I don't recall any references to Neville's eyes, whether his father's or not.
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contess lillein asend - Jul 26, 2004 8:53 am (#90 of 565) Reply
Edited Jul 26, 2004 9:54 am
I got the one but not the other. Thanks for that. I just can't wait to get POA home and slow it all down. You know it’s a sad state of affairs when you have your television on pause and a mirror held up in front of it trying to read a backwards blackboard.
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Round Pink Spider - Jul 26, 2004 9:58 am (#91 of 565) Reply
Thanks, Steve. Have you ever noticed that we have no description of Neville, except that he looks like Alice, and that he has a round, pink face? No hair color, no eye color...I can't help feeling there are secrets around (teehee).
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contess lillein asend - Jul 26, 2004 10:04 am (#92 of 565) Reply
Good one Pink!
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Rosebud221 - Jul 26, 2004 1:02 pm (#93 of 565) Reply
OK, I'm all caught up here now, too. How in the name of Gryffindor am I going to keep up with all these threads.
First, I'm not sure how much of the theory I agree with. Part of me nods as I read it, and part of me says "Oh, JKR NO!!!" I'll just wait and see...
However, I do have my comments.
Going back to post 33, I don't think that Harry is really a rebel or arrogant. There are just those that think so -- Snape, Malfoy & Filch.
Then reflecting on Sherbie's comment #34, There's always been this whole loss thing that JKR refers to. Maybe Neville is "found" and Harry finally discovers the joy of having family only to lose him in the end (I hope not!)... This relationship (Harry/Neville) also brings back the reasons behind the torture of the Longbottoms... Maybe something slipped about Harry...
Also the transfigured thing. Maybe Neville hasn't been transfigured but has a spell/charm that makes him unrecognizable to everyone except the "secret keeper..."
RPS -- When I read your post #42 I got thinking about Petunia and the howler (or was it just a letter) she got from Dumbledore. I've always wondered if maybe there wasn't a little magic in her...
I'm eager to see how these discussions continue and how it all pans out in book 6!
By the way, are we all congratulating JKR on the upcoming addition to her real life family?!!!!
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Round Pink Spider - Jul 27, 2004 5:45 am (#94 of 565) Reply
Thanks to someone's comment about Harry's dress robes on the Hidden Meaning of Color thread, I want to post this:
Harry, at least, may be one of the "twins" in the riddle! According to the solution, the twins are the nettle wine. Mrs. Weasley was good enough to buy Harry bottle green robes for the Yule Ball (book 4, p. 156). Not only that, in book 5 on p. 487, J. K. R. said that Harry was feeling “nettled”. And let’s not forget that Harry’s wand produced wine during the weighing of the wands (book 4, p. 311)!
I think I'll copy this over to the "color" thread, too.
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The Artful Dodger - Jul 27, 2004 11:16 am (#95 of 565) Reply
Edited Jul 27, 2004 12:17 pm
I think there is a better explanation for Fudge's "Potter's identical twin" statement. I think this has to be seen in context with the time travel events in PoA, which are mentioned by Fudge just in the next sentence. During these events, we get to see the identical twin, indeed. So, I think that is what JKR is referring to, not that Neville and Harry are brothers (now, "better explanation" might not be the right words; I just like that better).
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contess lillein asend - Jul 27, 2004 6:04 pm (#96 of 565) Reply
oooohhhhh. Good one pink round pink.
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contess lillein asend - Jul 28, 2004 7:02 am (#97 of 565) Reply
Edited Jul 28, 2004 8:24 am
Here is a theory. You are not going to like it, but oh well.
What if Dumbledore's "plan" goes back much further? What if he orchestrated the whole thing? Based on time lines, little clues and Harry's first impressions.
We know 50 years ago DD was the transfiguration teacher at Hogwarts (1943). Two years later DD leaves Hogwarts to battle Grindenwald (right after Voldi graduates). He comes back to Hogwarts? Is he made Headmaster? or does he teach DADA?
1970 - Voldi is in power. James and Lili are in school, along with the rest of the mod squad. Is the OOTP already formed? We know Mr. and Mrs. Weasley have already graduated, as have McGonagall and Hagrid. Is the picture of the original OOTP really the original OOTP?
Has DD already hatched a plan on how to bring down Voldi? How far would he go to insure that the "good guys" win?
What if DD knows what is needed to stop Voldi. A little house unity, the right mix of magic. Could he orchestrate lives to create what he needs? Would he, say as Headmaster, know the background of each student born and be able to manipulate things to the Orders advantage?
As we see in book 5, Lili detests James. But by year 7, they are in love? Could the mention of Mrs. Weasley's love potion be a work here? Is Lili bewitched as Harry thinks to create what the Order needs. If Lili has the right blood, and James has the right blood? What about Frank and Alice, are they the pureblood version of the same strain?
Does DD know that he is going to hear the prophecy? Does he know that the spy is there? Could he have him ejected from the bar at just the right time? Would he orchestrate the attack on James and Lili knowing that she would sacrifice her life and Harry would be given some of Voldi's powers, creating the perfect weapon with a little of all four houses ( the vision of a snake, the bravery of Gryffindor, the kindness of Hufflepuff and some smarts from Ravenclaw). Were Frank and Alice attacked for the same reason? Another thread just made me realize when Harry was sorted did the hat say things that linked him to each of the houses?
After all we know that Harry is made of stronger stuff (per Mr. Weasley).
The problem with the plan is that DD loves Harry now. But how is Harry going to feel about DD when all this comes out? What is he going to do when he thinks the good guys are as bad as the bad guys?
Did his parents find out? If they worked for the DOM, did they leave something there for Harry to discover the truth? Something maybe sealed?
I am only starting the reread of POA, I just can't help but think things are not what they appear to be. I will be looking for more of Harry's first impressions.
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Round Pink Spider - Jul 28, 2004 9:56 am (#98 of 565) Reply
At this point, I don't think the clues warrant suspecting that level of control from DD. It is possible that there have been other prophecies in connection with the events in the books, and Dumbledore has known that something was brewing all along, but his actions so far have suggested that he prefers to let "fate" take its course, helped out by a prod in the right direction now and then.
James and Lily started going out in 7th year. Harry saw them in 5th year. Presumably, the business with Remus, Sirius, and Snape occurred in 6th year, and that did something to James.
It is a very interesting point that Grindelwald would have been around just about the time Tom Riddle graduated. I wonder if Tom Riddle was influenced by him at all? But we don't know that DD "left Hogwarts" to fight Grindelwald. After all, right now Dumbledore's at Hogwarts, and he's fighting Voldemort. We don't know where the battle happened. The British fought the Germans in the skies over England, too.
I have fantasized (and that's all it is) that "the Order of the Phoenix" could have been started many years ago, either to give those who've screwed up their lives a second chance (rising from the ashes -- as I suspect DD did), or in connection with the descendants of Godric Gryffindor (I'm one of those who thinks Fawkes might have a connection with GG). I think eventually (hopefully in HBP) we'll find out why they're called "the Order of the Phoenix." Right now, we can only guess.
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lobelia - Jul 28, 2004 12:43 pm (#99 of 565) Reply
I have also speculated that the Order of the Phoenix and also Harry's fate lies in the fact (my speculation) that he is Gryffindor's heir. I can imagine Godric charming his blood (that eventually is to be passed down to Harry) to be protected from any Slytherin heir after the disagreement with Salazar. An argument based on half-bloods and muggle-bloods and magic. I believe it is this charm that Dumbledore speaks about when he talks about ancient magic, which caused the curse to backfire.
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contess lillein asend - Jul 28, 2004 1:09 pm (#100 of 565) Reply
This is why I love the forum. When I get too far out there you guys will drag me back to reality. Thanks
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Round Pink Spider - Jul 29, 2004 3:51 am (#101 of 565) Reply
Edited Jul 29, 2004 4:55 am
I wasn't quite ready to post this on the forum, but Sarahbud (that's Rosebud221) thought it was good, so that gives me the nerve. And it's just killing me to sit on it!
My daughter and I realized that there was another piece of evidence that Harry and Neville are related by blood. But I have to first give some explanation. In addition to colors having meaning, we think JKR uses certain shapes and creatures to add clues to the text (that's why I'm "Round Pink Spider"). Our HP group tries to determine those meanings by looking at a large sample of uses of that shape/creature, and seeing what meaning they could all have in common.
One of the more numerous creature references is to rabbits. From the usage, we believe that JKR only uses rabbits to refer to someone or something with a direct connection to Godric Gryffindor. (That means that being a member of Gryffindor house at Hogwarts isn't enough.) We have only seen rabbit references near Harry, the Weasleys, and things personally connected to Godric Gryffindor.
Here are some rabbit references (there are way more than this, believe it or not!):
- SS, p. 117, When Harry saw the Sorting Hat (Gryffindor's), he wondered if maybe they had to "try and get a rabbit out of it."
- The entrance to the Gryffindor common room is a hole in the wall.
- The Weasley's home is called the Burrow (as I said in the theory, I think the Weasleys are another branch of the Gryffindor line), and the Weasleys have "more children than they can afford" (rabbits multiply).
- PoA, p. 195, the tunnel between Hogwarts and Honeyduke's was "more like the burrow of a giant rabbit than anything else" (and Harry was passing through it -- visual clue)
- GoF, p. 27, Harry wasn't going to settle for what Uncle Vernon called "rabbit food."
- GoF, p. 70, On the way up Stoathead Hill (stoats are like weasels, and they hunt rabbits), Harry and the Weasleys kept stumbling in hidden rabbit holes.
- At the World Cup, Harry saw three African (as in Egyptian) wizards roasting a rabbit over a bright purple fire (Harry was getting "roasted" by the authorities the entire following year!).
- In the PoA movie, as the three friends were walking down the steep hill to Hagrid's hut for the Hippogriff class, a cute ickle bunny appeared in the foreground directly in front of Harry.
I want to add that JKR's first books that she wrote as a little girl were about a character called "Rabbit", and there might also be a connection to Peter Rabbit and Beatrix Potter.)
Okay, that's enough rabbit bits. Now for the clue we found. I haven't been able to chase down the first reference yet, but Neville wears bunny slippers. In the movie version of SS, in fact, he was wearing bunny slippers and bunny pajamas. And that didn't come from Hollywood! Apparently it came from JKR! If you search her website, one of the "rewards" was her personal "ancient" drawing of Harry, Ron, Hermione, Neville, and Dean (whom she later took out of the scene) for the chapter "The Midnight Duel" in SS. And she drew Neville in bunny pajamas! None of the others was wearing anything unusual, but even in her early stages of writing, she was associating Neville with rabbits! (I believe this may be the reason she included this picture on her website. I think the "rewards" are additional clues.)
In addition, when Neville was sorted into Gryffindor, he ran off wearing Godric Gryffindor's hat, as if it were his.
I realize that Neville could be related by blood to Gryffindor through the Longbottoms, but because of the very localized use of rabbits around Harry and the Weasleys (and now Neville), I don't think it's that simple.
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contess lillein asend - Jul 29, 2004 4:57 am (#102 of 565) Reply
That is simply beautiful, **sniff**.
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Steve Newton - Jul 29, 2004 5:35 am (#103 of 565) Reply
RPS,
Just a comment. Didn't one of the Gryffindor girls have a rabbit that died in POA? I can't go back and check now. Hermione has a long conversation about how this could not really be a Trelawney prediction.
I like the rabbit catch though. I hadn't picked up on that specific animal imagery. Except for the obvious snake stuff.
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Rosebud221 - Jul 29, 2004 6:51 am (#104 of 565) Reply
Steve,
You are correct! I remember that distinctly. One of the Pavil * twins * I believe?
--'bud
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TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 29, 2004 8:03 am (#105 of 565) Reply
Edited Jul 29, 2004 9:07 am
RPS, I found some more rabbit references, not sure if you also saw these.
1) “It bit me!” he said, showing them his hand, which was wrapped in a bloody handkerchief. "I'm not going to be able to hold a quill for a week. I tell you, that dragon's the most horrible animal I've ever met, but the way Hagrid goes on about it, you'd think it was a fluffy little bunny rabbit.”
2) Sirius's head turned. He became very still, like a dog that has scented a rabbit. 'Excellent,' he said softly. 'Snivellus.'
3) They didn't have breath to spare for talking as they began to climb Stoatshead Hill, stumbling occasionally in hidden rabbit holes, slipping on thick black tufts of grass.
4) Poisonous orange snails were oozing slowly up the side of their glass tank, and a fat white rabbit kept changing into a silk top hat and back again with a loud popping noise.
5) Harry looked down at the pair of white rabbits he was supposed to be turning into slippers.
6) Hagrid could be seen from the upstairs windows defrosting broomsticks on the Quidditch field, bundled up in a long moleskin overcoat, rabbit fur gloves, and enormous beaverskin boots.
7) “SHHHH!” said Hagrid again. "Listen - come an' see me later, I'm not promisin' I'll tell yeh anythin', mind, but don' go rabbitin' about it in here, students aren' s'pposed ter know. They'll think I've told yeh --"
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Loony Loopy Larissa - Jul 29, 2004 8:34 am (#106 of 565) Reply
I never noticed all the rabbit references!
Lavender Brown's bunny dies if I am not very much mistaken.
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riddikulus - Jul 29, 2004 8:43 am (#107 of 565) Reply
Edited by Jul 29, 2004 9:43 am
Binky... her rabbit was named Binky.
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contess lillein asend - Jul 29, 2004 9:17 am (#108 of 565) Reply
Edited Jul 29, 2004 10:35 am
O.K. I know how popular my "ultimate weapon" theory is, but..
What if Tom Riddle "was created" for the same purpose? To defeat Grindelwald, but his choices led him to the other side.
You know, I came up with this after re-reading an interview with JK where she said the story was going to turn very dark. This is the darkest thing I could think of. A sort of reverse Nazi theory. We all get behind what we think are the good guys and then she flips it on us.
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thetheatre62442 - Jul 29, 2004 7:28 pm (#109 of 565) Reply
Don't get me wrong, I think this theory is brilliant, but one question, now that JKR has updated her website.
What happens now that we know Neville and Harry weren't born on the same day? Seeing as how Neville's birthday is today... July 29. And Harry's is July 31.
Just a little something I thought I'd bring up. Post answers quickly please, I'm going out of town without a computer... *the world is coming to an end*
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Round Pink Spider - Jul 29, 2004 7:29 pm (#110 of 565) Reply
Yes, Binky (a "baby" rabbit) was killed by a fox. There are lots of baby references around Harry, too. I think this was a clue about the trustworthiness of someone wearing a fox-fur around her neck and a vulture (vultures are Death Eaters) on her hat.
TwinklingBlueEyes, thanks for all the references. One of those (I hope) falls under the "cigar is just a cigar" catagory (Hagrid with rabbit fur gloves?!? *whimper*), but I loved the "dragon is a bunny rabbit" and the "Harry's bunny slippers" one (that way, Harry will have a set, too!). The rabbit turning into a hat is probably another "rabbit is connected with the Sorting Hat" bit.
The most interesting one, though, is Sirius looking at Snape like a dog scenting a rabbit! Wow, we're going to have to watch that one!!! Is THAT why Snape hated James? Were they RELATED??? Well, nothing can breed hate like being badly treated by a relative (just look at Voldemort)!
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Round Pink Spider - Jul 29, 2004 7:42 pm (#111 of 565) Reply
thetheatre62442, if the REAL Neville Longbottom (stillborn) was born July 29th, that would give the Potters time to find out about it and make the switch (I had wondered about that). I am not trying to cling to my theory in the face of JKR's statement, just answering your question. That would explain how Neville's birthday could be on the 29th.
Frankly, if it weren't for the bunny slippers and pajamas, I would be quite willing to throw in the towel. So, for now, I'll say, "I'm going to just wait and see." JKR has connected Harry and Neville with rabbits for a reason, and I'm hoping we'll find out why.
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thetheatre62442 - Jul 29, 2004 7:51 pm (#112 of 565) Reply
I see, I see. Well, I do hope your theory pans out. It's the best one yet in my opinion!
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Round Pink Spider - Jul 29, 2004 7:58 pm (#113 of 565) Reply
I hate to be paranoid (I'm not the first one to wonder if JKR visits the forum, she did give the Lexicon the #1 award), but all this time it's been wizard of the month, and now all of a sudden it's Neville's birthday. You don't suppose she did that because she read...and she's trying to...she wouldn't do that, would she? (Not that I think it's not "Neville's" birthday, but...)
Just tell me I'm being paranoid. And thanks for the compliment!
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TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 29, 2004 8:00 pm (#114 of 565) Reply
Methinks the rabbit references kinda point toward timidity...Neville-ish , don't you think? But they also have useful positions.
Gloves, slipper, scent, metaphor...The rabbit turning into a hat, magic?
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contess lillein asend - Jul 29, 2004 8:15 pm (#115 of 565) Reply
RPS - I think someone been looking in on the lexicon.
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Round Pink Spider - Jul 29, 2004 8:15 pm (#116 of 565) Reply
Edited Jul 29, 2004 9:16 pm
Timidity won't work, Twinkling, Arthur Weasley and Harry are certainly not timid.
As for "magic", that only works for about half the quotes. It doesn't explain some of yours, or these:
1) the tunnel between Hogwarts and Honeyduke's was "more like the burrow of a giant rabbit than anything else" (and Harry was passing through it -- visual clue)
2) Harry wasn't going to settle for what Uncle Vernon called "rabbit food."
3) At the World Cup, Harry saw three African (as in Egyptian) wizards roasting a rabbit over a bright purple fire (Harry was getting "roasted" by the authorities the entire following year!).
I'm not wedded to "rabbits" meaning bloodline Gryffindors, but it's the only meaning I've found (so far) that could match most of the uses in the books. As far as I can tell, one can "be" a rabbit (as Harry is in these clues).
EDIT: what do you mean, Contess? Are you feeling watched, too?
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contess lillein asend - Jul 29, 2004 8:32 pm (#117 of 565) Reply
O.K. I thought more about it...How about this...
Every 25 years 2 children are born, one will be a dark wizard killer and the other (brother, twin, not related) will be a back-up – let’s call them The Heir and The Spare. That puts us at:
Heir/Spare DOB SCHOOL
Dumbledore/Aberforth 1831 1842-1849 unknown/unknown 1856 1867-1874 unknown/unknown 1881 1892-1899 unknown/unknown 1905 1917-1924 Riddle/Hagrid 1931 1942-1949 Lupin?/Pettigrew? 1956 1967-1974 Potter/Longbottom 1981 1992-1997
Let’s say the Heir has no proper family. Say they rise from the ashes of the destruction of thier proper families. Like the Phoenix.
The OOTP is in charge of watching over the heir. Maybe their ranks even volunteer themselves?
If this is true then:
When Riddle opened the Chamber of Secrets, Harry really was the heir. Enemies of the heir beware. I wondered why Colin and Justin were taken out. Could Ginny have written that they were bothering Harry in the diary?
I am not sure on the dates, just a guestimate, and I don't know about the Lupin/Pettigrew combo. I just know that James and Sirius had families while in school and I know nothing about Lupin/Pettigrew's families.
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MickeyCee3948 - Jul 29, 2004 8:33 pm (#118 of 565) Reply
On the Harry/Neville relationship. If Neville was supposed born two days before Harry and they are descendants of royalty then I suppose that would make Neville the Prince since he's the oldest. Wouldn't it? I think the paranoia you both (RPS & Contess) seem to be feeling is due to the knowledge you both possess of the subject matter. It is fantastic fun to sit here and read all of your theories. You are both fantastic.
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contess lillein asend - Jul 29, 2004 8:36 pm (#119 of 565) Reply
I forgot to mention: If the theory is right then Harry/Neville are the seventh set of Heir and Spare’s. Is this why there are seven candles on Neville's cake?
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TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 29, 2004 9:13 pm (#120 of 565) Reply
Hare and Spare?
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TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 29, 2004 9:33 pm (#121 of 565) Reply
Timidity won't work, Twinkling, Arthur Weasley and Harry are certainly not timid.
Not unless is in their best interest...""Did you really?" said Mr. Weasley eagerly. "Did it go all right? I - I mean," he faltered as sparks flew from Mrs. Weasley's eyes, "that - that was very wrong, boys - very wrong indeed ......"
Harry I can think of a lot of times, but not at this time.
Magic just referred to a thread of this story, and how is associated with "rabbit out of the hat", kind of like Gryffindor’s sword?
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contess lillein asend - Jul 30, 2004 12:38 am (#122 of 565) Reply
Edited Jul 30, 2004 1:49 am
RPS - I'm Thinking 11:57pm and 12;07am, what about you? Got that prickling feeling on the back of your neck?
Mickey: Thanks but I think the word is "possessed". It is rather difficult walking around doing everything one handed.
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contess lillein asend - Jul 30, 2004 2:46 am (#123 of 565) Reply
To expound upon my theory:
Tom Riddle was the previous heir. Let's say he descended from the main line of Ravenclaw (seeing as he was probably the most brilliant student Hogwart's has ever seen). He is born and shortly thereafter attacked by Grindelwald (previous heir or spare?)and the phoenix rises from the ashes. Raised in a muggle orphanage. Goes to Hogwart's. But when he is sorted he lets the hat put him in Slytherin. Did he find out what he was and why he ended up in the orphanage? Did he know his prophecy too? Did he choose to "fly from death".
Now there is Harry. He resists the hats will and makes a choice of his own. He faces many trials. He doesn't find out about the prophecy till the 5th year. What will he choose now? Being a pheonix he is designed to carry heavy loads. Will Harry's "tears have healing powers" on the Wizarding World?
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Round Pink Spider - Jul 30, 2004 4:29 am (#124 of 565) Reply
The Hare and the Spare. Twink, you're me! And who can blame a rabbit for being nervous when faced with a tiger?
Actually, Twink, our HP group tries hard to take meanings from context, otherwise we're just projecting our meanings rather than trying to find JKR's. You'd be surprised at the clues you can turn up just from collecting references to something like the color gold or round things or spots (all of which are meaningful), and figuring out what those meanings are.
Contess, I won't discourage you from pursuing this line (have fun!), but I ought to point out that Tom Riddle was two years older than Hagrid. Hagrid was expelled in his third year, whereas Tom Riddle was in his fifth. Also, although I can imagine pairs being born periodically, I don't think it's a good idea to project the term "Heir" on one of them. I think JKR has been clear that Voldemort is the Heir of Slytherin by , not destiny, and we've been told that Ginny was possessed by Voldie when she wrote "Enemies of the Heir, beware." So Voldie would have been referring to himself, not Harry.
Actually, Contess, even the seven candles could be a clue (or it could be a...coincidence *gasp* :-D). 7s, 12s, and 13s are all important. 13s seem to be associated with the enemy or evil; 12s appear to be associated with the Order or good; and 7s, like rabbits, might be associated with Gryffindors, especially Harry. For example, the vault in which the Stone was hidden was #713. The seven tasks and the titles of Gilderoy's seven books seem to have meanings connected to Harry's seven years at school. They even put a #7 on Harry's back during the Quidditch game in PoA! (Harry once had a dream that Wood yelled at him, "Where were you? We had to use Neville instead!")
MikeyCee, first, if the current Neville is really Neville Longbottom (as opposed to a Potter), it wouldn't matter that he's older, because he (like Ron) would probably be from a lateral branch of the family (in my theory). If they ARE twins, then Neville isn't really Neville Longbottom at all, and we would have no way of knowing who the older one was. Actually, I do suspect that Harry may actually be the younger, because "Harry" is the nickname of Prince Charles' SECOND son, and JKR has given so many "English Royalty" names in the Potter's and Weasley's families. But that's projection.
Also, since more babies are born at night than during the day, the REAL Neville's birth and Harry's birth could actually be as little as slightly more than 24 hrs. apart. As I said, that actually would simplify things, because it would give the Potters time to find out about the Longbottoms' loss.
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contess lillein asend - Jul 30, 2004 4:48 am (#125 of 565) Reply
Edited Jul 30, 2004 5:51 am
I just can't image Lily giving away one of her children. Heck, she gave up her life for one of them. What if Lily doesn't know.
Does anyone know when Mr. and Mrs. Weasley were in school? Mr. Weasley looks like a spare also. Why weren't they in the original order of the Phoenix? Make you say, HMMMMMM>
Did Volde date McGonagall in school? Harry has his seekers, did Voldie?
I'm like the Voldie of the Lexicon, projecting darkness on all I see.
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Kasse - Jul 30, 2004 5:31 am (#126 of 565) Reply
You know, I usually skip this thread because I thought that is was ludicrous but now that I have actually read it I do see there might be a connection. Would Lily give up one of her own children? Maybe. I guess what will seal it for me ifs if Neville in HBP gets and an oak wand.
Contess Lillein Asend - what would make you think McGonagall dated Voldi in school?
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contess lillein asend - Jul 30, 2004 5:51 am (#127 of 565) Reply
Edited Jul 30, 2004 6:57 am
Just that Harry is dating seekers and he and Harry are somewhat alike. I have the impression that McGonagall was a seeker, they went to school at the same time. I thought it was kind of funny. Maybe you don't know the Harry will end up with Ginny theory.
RPS - If I am the Lexicon voldie, you’re the lexicon Harry. I see conspiracy, you see bunnies. All we have in common is twins. I absolutely love reading your stuff.
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Kasse - Jul 30, 2004 6:53 am (#128 of 565) Reply
in the PS/SS movie when Hermione takes Harry (and Ron) to see James Potter’s badge that says seeker on it, supposedly next to his badge is McGonogall’s - I do not know if that is true I just heard it somewhere. Anyhow if it is true it would mean that she could not have been a seeker.
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Steve Newton - Jul 30, 2004 6:59 am (#129 of 565) Reply
I don't see why this would mean that McGonagall is not a seeker. There, apparent, age difference would just indicate that they played at different times.
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Rosebud221 - Jul 30, 2004 7:18 am (#130 of 565) Reply
In the movie on the Gryffindor quidditch plaque, there is definitely a McGonagall. We laughed about it when we first saw it. However, I think that Minerva is considerably older than James Potter and the McGonagall on the plaque is likely a sibling or maybe her child. I always wonder when I see that where we find out that James was a Gryffindor. I don't remember ever reading it anywhere but it has been quite a long time since I've read some of the books.
On another note, why the heck wouldn't JKR spy on us???!!! Lurk in the shadows as it were?! She may not post anything and only read what's going on (to see the newest outlandish idea we're debating, and either laughing her fanny off or wondering how we got so smart). If it was me (and it most definitely is NOT!) I think human nature might even drive her to try to contact some of those she feels most in tune with... you never know.
RPS, I'm still chasing little white rabbits! :-)
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Round Pink Spider - Jul 30, 2004 8:03 am (#131 of 565) Reply
Well, she's not contacting me! I was just feeling paranoid that that little tidbit of information popped out on her website just after I posted the bit about Neville and the bunny pajamas, almost as if she were trying to mislead us (because she doesn't want her story given away.) But of course, there are real-life coincidences. So I'm sure it is a coincidence that the first time she ever gave us information about the actual date of Neville's birthday just happened to be now...it is a coincidence, I'm sure of it...
Contess, of COURSE she might give away one of her children. She died to save Harry! Surely that would be more awful than watching someone you know and trust raise one of your children practically under your nose.
Kasse, I'm waiting for an oak wand, too. Or, of course, he could turn up with a holly wand with a phoenix feather...
I'd love it if McGonagall played Quidditch when she was younger. She certainly loves having the House Cup in her office now! Yes, Prof. M is about the same age as Voldie, about 70. Maybe it was a relative (I can't imagine her having had kids, but maybe I'm wrong!). Neat detail, anyway. I'll have to go back and watch that one.
**Sssshhh, be veeewwy quiet...we're hunting wabbits...(chuckles)***
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Catherine - Jul 30, 2004 9:16 am (#132 of 565) Reply
Silly rabbit! Trix are for kids!
Sorry. I couldn't help it. That, and the "Hare of Gryffindor" theory. Maybe we'll find out something concrete in HBP, or the theory could be "hare today and gone tomorrow."
*Catherine skips off St. Mungo's chuckling to herself*
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Rosebud221 - Jul 30, 2004 9:51 am (#133 of 565) Reply
Don't forget "Hare-ry..."
Catherine, I'm right behind you...
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Round Pink Spider - Jul 30, 2004 10:05 am (#134 of 565) Reply
Edited Jul 30, 2004 11:07 am
Love all the Rabbit jokes. They're multiplying...
I am now officially certifiable.
FIRST, it now says Neville's birthday is July 30th. Either JKR isn't telling, or the Happy Birthday went up too soon. Since Neville and Harry could have been born near midnight, the birthday no longer tells us anything one way or the other.
SECOND (and more important by far) -- NOW I REALLY FEEL WATCHED! Today JKR has added something to her Extra Stuff bulletin board! If you capture the image of the bulletin board just before all the things get put up on the board, you will see that there are now two identical pieces of paper, one on the left and one on the right, each showing Gryffindor, circled, connected to the letters HB (half-blood), also circled, and part of the Sorting Hat's song about Gryffindors. The one on the right has a visible corner on the bottom left that says Hufflepuff; the bottom left-hand corner of the one on the left is hidden (bet it'd say "Slytherin"!).
I would post a link to this picture, but I don't know how to do it. I pointed it out on the JK Rowling Official Site thread, though, so within a few hours there should be a link there.
I am trying so hard to bite my tongue right now...
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Round Pink Spider - Jul 30, 2004 10:25 am (#135 of 565) Reply
Edited Jul 30, 2004 11:45 am
Apparently I'm not certifiable, just blind. Sarah Jones tells me those pieces of paper have been there for some time. (There are other identical sheets on the desktop, but I can't read them.) Oddly enough, no one seems to see anything strange about having two identical HB (half-blood) Gryffindor diagrams. Sarah Jones has a link to the picture on post #865 over on the "Official Site" thread.
I hope you all enjoy seeing those...
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contess lillein asend - Jul 30, 2004 11:20 am (#136 of 565) Reply
Edited Jul 30, 2004 12:25 pm
People, the spot in the movie came from me, and they have different dates on each badge. The plaque does not indicate that James and McGonagall went to school at the same time. It appears to be added on to each year.
RPS - Paranoia is a good thing. I also started to notice that Trelawney's predictions are true for other people if you apply them to Harry. The thing that you dread, not Lavender's rabbit, but McGonagall denying Harry permission to go to Hogsmeade, etc. Now, beware of the man with red-hair!
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riddikulus - Jul 30, 2004 12:24 pm (#137 of 565) Reply
on JKRs sight, it says Happy birthday Neville 7-30-04. Harry was born on the 31st. If they're twins... the only way that could be, is if Neville was born at just before midnight and Harry just after midnight.... otherwise... I like all your thought, but again... don't see it.
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Rosebud221 - Jul 30, 2004 1:09 pm (#138 of 565) Reply
Twins can be born further apart than a few minutes. Hours and actually days are not unheard of! It would be easy for Neville to have been born on the 30th and Harry on the 31st. Neville could have been born at 11:00 PM and Harry at 1:00 am. No mystery there.
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Round Pink Spider - Jul 30, 2004 3:32 pm (#139 of 565) Reply
Sarahbud is right, they could be born within 10 min. of each other (typical for twins) and still be on 2 different days; although as I pointed out, the whole point is that Neville is concealed, therefore his "birthday" wouldn't necessarily be his real birthday. That's OK though, Riddikulus, I'm not trying to convince anyone, I'm just putting the clues out there.
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Round Pink Spider - Aug 1, 2004 7:36 am (#140 of 565) Reply
Edited Aug 1, 2004 8:38 am
I really want to bring up again something that come up a few days ago. After talking about rabbits and their connection to Godric Gryffindor and his descendants, TwinklingBlueEyes brought up a quote from "Snape's Worst Memory":
“Sirius's head turned. He had become very still, like a dog that has scented a rabbit. [emphasis mine].
'Excellent,' he said softly. 'Snivellus.' “
I don't believe even a small reference to rabbits should be ignored. This might explain a lot of the hostility between James and Snape.
Just as a theory, suppose James' grandfather...ah...sowed a wild oat or two when he was young. Snape would then be the result of an illegitimate branch of James' family. He would be James' half-cousin. An illegitimate child in a wealthy, possibly important family would have been quite an embarrassment. James would have grown up with that. Remember that James said he disliked Snape "because he exists."
As I said, nothing can breed hate like being badly treated by a relative (just look at Voldemort)! But the most important thing from all this is that (if Snape is in fact a half-blood), all this would mean he would be a half-blood prince. Notice -- Snape has black hair, like James.
I've seen people suggest over on the Half-Blood Prince thread that Snape could be the one, but I always discounted that possibility. Now I think this deserves serious consideration.
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contess lillein asend - Aug 1, 2004 7:42 am (#141 of 565) Reply
Edited Aug 1, 2004 8:44 am
RPS - what do you think of Frank Bryce? I was reading the scene where Volde destroys him and Harry sees it. Is he seeing it from Frank Bryce's point of view? You know Frank Bryce was "pottering" around.
He also was in a "war" and had an injury to his leg (like the Fisher King). He is the same age as Volde. Something tells me there is more to Frank then meets the eye.
Would he be protecting something in the Riddle House? Could what Volde wants be there the whole time?
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Round Pink Spider - Aug 1, 2004 9:41 am (#142 of 565) Reply
Yes, I noticed the "pottering". Did you notice the "weeds" creeping up on him? Sounds a little like Devil's Snare to me...
I think (since you ask) that Frank Bryce was an innocent victim. I think the injury to his leg probably was a reference to the Fisher King, and it may have been a foreshadowing of Dumbledore in some way (since he also suffered an injury to his leg at some point--the "London Underground" scar).
I would like to know if the current "rich owner" of the Riddle House has any connection to the Wizarding World, but there's no way to know at the moment. I doubt there was anything in the Riddle House before Voldemort and Wormtail came there, since apparently Voldemort's mother never lived there. I think the truth is exactly what the text says: the house was convenient because of its proximity to Riddle Sr.'s grave. Whether there's anything useful there now is anyone's guess.
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riddikulus - Aug 2, 2004 5:48 am (#143 of 565) Reply
Hey RPS and Rosebud: I like RPS' theory... a lot of work went into it. I just think that JKR put that on her site for a reason... ya know? She didn't put Happy birthday Harry. She hasn't put Happy birthday anyone else... why Neville? Maybe it's a message or clue.
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Rosebud221 - Aug 2, 2004 6:51 am (#144 of 565) Reply
Darn! I forgot to check the site over the weekend! Just too much going on. Company picnic, grass to cut, grocery shopping, laundry! It never ends! :-)
On that note, RPS, do you feel really paranoid now???
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Round Pink Spider - Aug 2, 2004 9:10 am (#145 of 565) Reply
Edited Aug 2, 2004 10:17 am
Thanks, Riddikulus...I appreciate that, I think...and I do think it's a message or a clue, one of JKR's favorite kinds: the kind that can be misinterpreted (look at the clues about Crouch Jr. in GoF). She loves to mislead her readers. In a mystery, it's the information on the silver platter you can't trust; the information you need to watch is the little clues in the background. I'm not saying she's lying; there is just the "obvious" explanation and the "secret" explanation.
As I said, it doesn't bother me a bit that she shows Neville's and Harry's birthdays on two different days. My whole theory is that Neville is hidden, so that would include when he was born. It's not like JKR would advertise it, would she? By the way, she did put a happy birthday to Harry. Sarah showed it, I believe, over on the Official Website thread. (It looks identical to Harry's, right down to the number of candles -- 7).
And yeah, I admit it, Sarahbud, I do feel a little paranoid, but that's OK. I'm in good company. :-D
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Rosebud221 - Aug 2, 2004 9:22 am (#146 of 565) Reply
I like the Snape connection. Not sure what to make of it yet. Let's dig up some more clues. Because of the faith DD and Hagrid have in him I've been thinking that there's much more to Snape than meets the eye, and I've been dying to know more about him (I'm sure it's forthcoming, JKR doesn't leave many dangling threads). It doesn't help that I picture Alan Rickman every time I read Snape because I think that somehow he got inside JKR's mind and plucked him out of there! He so perfectly fleshed out the character (for me anyway!), that now that I have a picture I want to know more & more & more. He's been playing it so well that you just KNOW there's something more there...
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Round Pink Spider - Aug 2, 2004 9:31 am (#147 of 565) Reply
Oh, yesss, my Precious, there's something about Ssssnape and his "spidery" movements (see that list of clues I sent you!), not to mention his "batty" behavior...but I really think he's OK. I think he hates Harry for the same reason as James, he sees him as a child of privilege, and maybe someone who judges others prematurely. If he knew Harry/like we know Harry...But maybe Harry has something he needs to learn from Snape. Yeah, Alan Rickman's doing a great job. I hope he sticks with it!
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Rosebud221 - Aug 2, 2004 9:43 am (#148 of 565) Reply
I'm sure that this belongs in another thread, but since we're on the topic... I love the movie cast. The powers that be definitely got all the right people for the various adult roles. We were even talking about it last night over our 100th screening of SS. Now that they're behind about 6 months, should the kids outgrow the roles, we pray that we don't lose any more of the adults. They're so perfect. I can't imagine anyone else as McGonagall, Snape, Hooch, Hagrid, Vernon or Petunia. Dudley is great, but he's not very blonde... You name it, they did an awesome job. I even like the new DD. Richard Harris was awesome -- who can forget "SILENCE!" in SS when the troll gets in and the students go nuts. That was ALL Harris! I always thought though that the Santa like "twinkle" wasn't quite there and now it is.
'nuff said, now back to the REAL discussion...
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contess lillein asend - Aug 2, 2004 10:05 am (#149 of 565) Reply
cannot remember what thread I read it on, but someone was theorizing that Snape was James’ illegitimate half-brother. I started thinking about this.
Would that go along with King Arthur's seduction by his sister, Morgan LeFey, that produced the son, Modred (I probably spelled all those wrong, but I am 900 miles away from my desk). Modred caused King Arthur's death.
That would explain their hatred for one another. So I went on a search for a description of Snape's father. There is the memory in the OOTP in Seen and Unforseen, where Snape is cowering in a corner while a hook-nosed man yells at his mother. So I go to the mirror of Erised in book 1 to seen how the Potter's are described. Same noses, but no description. I go to Snape's worst memory OOTP, to see if we get a description of James' nose. Still looking.
If this is right, would Snape be the half-blood prince?
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Rosebud221 - Aug 2, 2004 12:27 pm (#150 of 565) Reply
Edited Aug 2, 2004 1:31 pm
But isn't Harry supposed to be the image of James, except for the eyes? He has Lily's eyes... I don't recall a description of Harry with a hooked nose, and it seems an obvious trait that would be included in a description.
However, I believe there is definitely a connection between James & Severus. I'm just waiting to see what it is and enjoying the speculation!
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Round Pink Spider - Aug 3, 2004 2:49 am (#151 of 565) Reply
Edited Aug 3, 2004 3:58 am
Sarahbud, Harry looks like James; we don't know how much James looks like his own father. James might not have inherited the nose...but I don't think Snape and James are half-brothers, because they were the same age. It's not impossible, but I think it's more likely they are something like half-cousins. We'll just have to wait and see. But I'm not going to hang the "Mordred" sign on Snape, because I really think that's a case of "obvious." The obvious clues make Snape look bad. The hidden ones say Snape is OK. And I think in the next book Snape may come out looking even worse. But don't forget the "Voyages with Vampires" thing for book 7!
I think in the end Snape is going to help Harry. I even suspect that the reason Snape left the DEs in the first place may have been because he found out there was a traitor tailing James. (That was probably how the Order found out about the traitor in the first place.) Snape said that "James was too arrogant to believe he might be mistaken in his friends." DD said Snape saved Harry at that one Quidditch match because he owed James his life. Maybe he had tried to save James but failed.
Yeah, Sarahbud, I'm with you! I think it makes so much sense that there's a relationship there.
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Annika - Aug 3, 2004 7:18 am (#152 of 565) Reply
Round Pink Spider, I think that your theory is absolutely fantastic! Well thought out and well researched. I have been reading this forum as a guest for ages now and joined just so I could say BRAVO!
Annika
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Veritaserum - Aug 3, 2004 9:44 am (#153 of 565) Reply
Edited Aug 3, 2004 10:48 am
RPS, while your theory is very well thought out, I do not think it's very likely. However, I do like Contess's idea about DD. I more and more have been seeing him as pretty wicked close to omniscient, and the implications of that can get pretty weird. Your theory put me in mind of the season finale of "Alias", where it appears they have all been played by someone from the beginning. While I don't see a huge conspiracy coming out from JKR now, it is still very intriguing. In fact, the conspiracy was one of my original (“half-sirius”
) theories concerning the "look of triumph" back in the day when GoF had just come out.I just now remembered a theory I had last summer about the ending of book 5: Harry dies heroically after dueling Voldylocks. Just when it looks like one has perished at the hands of the other, in steps who else but Neville to defeat the Dark Lord once and for all!
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Round Pink Spider - Aug 3, 2004 10:38 am (#154 of 565) Reply
Edited Aug 3, 2004 11:39 am
Thanks so much for the compliment, Annika. We're on a roll here, so if you like this, keep coming back!
Veritaserum, I have no problem with you thinking it unlikely. Very few people on the forum believe it, and if I think that there are going to be a lot of disgusted people when HBP comes out, that's OK. And frankly, I do think Neville is going to play a role in the defeat. What his role may be I don't know, but I think he'll be in on it.
Now that the bit with Snape has been batted around, I want to bring up something else I picked up a few days ago. Here's an enormous post for those of you interested in seeing yet another twin connection!
On a different thread, we’ve been batting around something that Contess (was it you, Contess?) saw on the chalkboard during the movie Chamber of Secrets, in the scene in which Hermione asks Prof. McGonagall about the Chamber of Secrets. At the front of the classroom are two blackboards that show mirror images of each other. During a close shot of McGonagall, you can see behind her that the blackboards show a phoenix, what appears to be a royal seal, and a goblet. Then Ron turns Scabbers into a goblet with a tail. I speculated that all this may refer to the content of books 3-7:
Scabbers: PoA
Goblet with a tail: GoF (the “tail”, perhaps, meaning that it was a portkey)
Phoenix: OotP
Royal seal: HBP
Goblet or cup: book 7 (possibly the “grail-like” object)
I put together a clue from the PoA movie with the royal seal, and realized we’re seeing yet another literary reference, this time to the book The Prince and the Pauper. In that story, two identical boys, one Prince Edward, son of Henry VIII, the other a boy named Tom Canty, switched clothes. Prince Edward ended up being thrown out of the palace and spent the rest of the book trying to get back. Near the end, Tom Canty was nearly crowned King when Henry VIII died. The coronation was only stopped at the last minute by the timely appearance of the real prince. But to prove that he was the real Prince, he had to tell the courtiers where to find the missing royal seal. The interesting details in all of this are:
1) The finding of the royal seal identified Edward as the true Prince
2) During the time that the boys had switched positions, everyone thought both of them were crazy
3) Tom Canty admitted that he’d been using the royal seal to crack nuts with.
Remember that scene in the PoA movie, when Tom, the proprietor of the Leaky Cauldron, was cracking nuts in his hands?!? Tom, by the way, means twin.
Now, in terms of this theory and the Harry Potter universe, what if the “grail-like” object would give Voldemort what he wants, that is, immortality (like the Philosopher’s Stone), as well as healing someone (say, perhaps, Dumbledore)? Possibly, to get the “grail”, one needs the “seal”. What if only the Half-blood Prince can find the royal seal (could an infant be made a secret-keeper?) If Harry, Hermione, and Ron were trying to find the seal to save Dumbledore, they would discover Neville is a prince in the process! If either Harry or Neville fell into Voldemort’s hands, it could become a race to see who got the “grail” first.
There are holes galore in this idea, I know, but this is just a first draft of the idea. The two observations I want to add are, first, Edward is one of the few English royal names JKR hasn’t used yet for a Potter or a Weasley (is Neville’s real name Edward?); and second, on the way into the Divination class in the PoA movie, in that area with vertical wood paneling, the one word you can read incised in a panel (right on the right edge) appeared to be Edward or Edwardius.
Sorry, I know this is very long, but I hope you all find it interesting!
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Madame Librarian - Aug 3, 2004 10:45 am (#155 of 565) Reply
RPS, very intriguing and fun to ponder even though I wouldn't bet any sickles on it. Would you consider duplicating it for other threads where it fits? I'm thinking the "Chambers clue and book 6" one and the "HBP" one. Maybe the "Clues in the movies one." There is a lot of overlap in topic between those three so I don't know which is best.
Thanks.
Ciao. Barb
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contess lillein asend - Aug 3, 2004 11:20 am (#156 of 565) Reply
Wow RPS. I can see some things that hook up to your theory. What if the blowing gum anagram (the one about St. Mungos) is where the seal is? I was the one that saw the blackboard. I always hoped Neville's name would be William also, so we would have Wills and Harry.
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riddikulus - Aug 3, 2004 1:22 pm (#157 of 565) Reply
Edited by Aug 3, 2004 2:31 pm
RPS, You've really given this a lot of thought... perhaps you should write a book!
What I keep coming back to, is the prophecy, itself. DD tells it like it is. To Harry: YOU are the one who was marked. YOU must either kill or be killed in the end. He comes out and says, it's not Neville. Even if Neville is this secret twin... unless there's a scar on him, we're unaware of... and it was really him that was marked... he's really got no other role in the end... other than that like the rest... to come together in support of the war between good and evil. Although... I gather you're saying his role is different to what I'm suggesting here...
I'm aware that I'm consistently shooting down this part of your theory
Hey, consider it healthy discussion. I just find her to be more simplistic... brilliant, but simplistic... and your theory just seems too far off for me to accept. For me to want to accept.- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Rosebud221 - Aug 3, 2004 1:25 pm (#158 of 565) Reply
Somewhere in one of these threads (the JKR website one? maybe ) I saw a note about the countless gum wrappers being Neville's "grandmother's" way of reinforcing a charm or spell on Neville... ties in, eh?!
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Kasse - Aug 3, 2004 2:57 pm (#159 of 565) Reply
Rosebud I have never heard that but it makes one think....... against my better judgment this theory is growing on me
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Madame Librarian - Aug 3, 2004 3:19 pm (#160 of 565) Reply
Rosebud and Kasse, if you have the energy to dredge through the whole of the thread on the Longbottoms and the cause of their illness, I believe there was extensive speculation about the gum, the gum wrappers, Gran's dialogue with Neville at St. Mungos, all of that. Some excellent ideas were developed. You could use the search tool, too.
Ciao. Barb
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contess lillein asend - Aug 3, 2004 4:39 pm (#161 of 565) Reply
Edited Aug 3, 2004 5:57 pm
RPS - Let's try the story of Merlin.
In our story, Merlin will be played by Dumbledore.
Once upon a time there was a King (James' and Snape's (or Sirius) father. The king was killed by Vortigern (Voldemort)and took the throne. Merlin (DD)keeps attempting to put a good king on the throne (Maybe 7 times by now). Merlin (DD) predicts the downfall of Vortigern (Volde)by the King's sons. Pendragon (don't know yet, or even if were using both or have combined into one character) serves as king, then Uther (James) . Pendragon by the way could tranform himself into a number of animals, including a stag. Uther (James) fell in love with another man's wife, Igerne (Lili). Merlin (DD) transformed Uther (James) to look like the Igerne's (lili) husband and they had many trysts. Uther (James) killed the woman's husband and married the woman. For this act of Merlin's (DD) Uther (James) gives up the right to raise the son he has with Igerne (Lili). The child, King Arthur (Harry) is given to peasant's (Dursleys )to raise.
Wasn't Merlin there when Uther killed himself? Didn't stop it. I can't remember.
We know Arthur meets his downfall by Modred's hand, but who is playing Modred? We Merlin disappear?
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Round Pink Spider - Aug 3, 2004 4:46 pm (#162 of 565) Reply
Edited Aug 3, 2004 5:48 pm
Madame Librarian: RPS, very intriguing and fun to ponder even though I wouldn't bet any sickles on it. Would you consider duplicating it for other threads where it fits?
Thanks, Madame Librarian. To tell you the truth, I wouldn't bother. I'd considered starting a "literary reference" thread for the multitude of references to books and stories I've already found, but there are already a lot of threads, and I suspect people would think I was pushing an agenda...But if you think the connections are fun (whether you agree or not), come on back in a couple of days, I'll be dropping another one when this one dies down.
Riddikulus: What I keep coming back to, is the prophecy, itself. DD tells it like it is. To Harry: YOU are the one who was marked. YOU must either kill or be killed in the end. He comes out and says, it's not Neville.
Dumbledore has already demonstrated his fallibility. He testified to the courts that Sirius was the Potters' secret keeper. He confessed to Harry that he had failed him by not telling him about the prophecy sooner. He misjudged the extent of Snape's dislike for Harry and tried to have Snape teach Harry Occlumency. Harry pointed out how much people hate being locked up, and Dumbledore hid his face in his hands. All of OotP was a demonstration of Dumbledore's fallibility. Dumbledore knows a great deal, but he doesn't know everything.
JKR said that she worded the prophecy very carefully. That implies there's more meaning there than has yet been revealed. If you assume that the simplest, most obvious meaning is the correct one, you're falling into the standard trap in every good mystery. Generally, the obvious answer is wrong. You have to look at the hidden clues to find the answer.
JKR's simplicity is deceptive. No good mystery is simplistic. In an interview, JKR once said that her ambition had always been to write a mystery that one couldn't get all of on a first reading.
Keep shooting, "pardner"...
Contess: I always hoped Neville's name would be William also, so we would have Wills and Harry.
No law against duplication, but William's been used (Bill Weasley).
I think a lot of the items on JKR's desk are clues. Found another one this morning -- the coffee cup on the desk top. If you look at the title page of "Fantastic Beasts," you'll see that the wizarding publisher is Obscurus Press. The interesting thing about this is, she made the O look like a black circle with a crescent moon in it, very similar to the coffee cup seen from above. Obscurus is Latin for "dark" or "hidden". I would guess this is another clue about a "hidden cup" that could be important in book 7.
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Round Pink Spider - Aug 3, 2004 5:00 pm (#163 of 565) Reply
RPS - Let's try the story of Merlin.
In our story, Merlin will be played by Dumbledore.
Hi, Contess! I didn't know you were on right now. Actually, I do think Dumbledore is a Merlin figure, and I do think some of those parallels are valid (like delivering Harry to the Dursleys), but I can't say I think Lily was married to someone else...Generally, JKR uses some ideas from another literary work, but never all. I think Harry and Ron have some parallels to Merlin, also (Sarah Jones suggested this a while back).
We know Arthur meets his downfall by Modred's hand, but who is playing Modred? We Merlin disappear? I don't know if there will be a Mordred. Snape may be related to Harry and James. But as I said earlier, I think he may be blamed, but I don't think what's going to happen will be his fault. I think he's going to be framed again.
I think Dumbledore is in trouble. Will he survive it? I don't know, but I'm betting he'll be put out of action in book 6.
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Kasse - Aug 3, 2004 5:32 pm (#164 of 565) Reply
Madame Librarian (Barb, )thanks I will.
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contess lillein asend - Aug 3, 2004 5:40 pm (#165 of 565) Reply
I don't think Lily was married either, but maybe involved with Remus or someone else.
As for the "she uses some but not all" I believe that as well. I still feel that Harry's feeling that his mother was "charmed" to fall in love with his father may be a valid one.
She has weaved so many Myths together that its hard to tell who is whom. I just hope there is a twist to it all, and it doesn't follow any one precisely.
By the way, How are you doing? Still feeling watched? What do you make of the seven candles?
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Solitaire - Aug 3, 2004 8:16 pm (#166 of 565) Reply
Okay, Round Pink Spider ... I am not even a quarter of the way through this thread--and this will probably be hit eventually--but I had to jump ahead and ask ... if Neville and Harry are indeed fraternal twins, could one of the lines in "the prophecy" apply to them:
“... either must die at the hand of the other, for neither can live while the other survives ...” What if that line applied to Neville and Harry rather than Harry and LV? What if one of them is doomed to die at the hand of the other?
Other than that, I really like your theory so far. I can't wait to read the rest of the posts on this thread.
Solitaire
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contess lillein asend - Aug 4, 2004 3:07 am (#167 of 565) Reply
OK I got it.
This is all an ancient Egyptian curse placed on the families of King Arthur, the knights and the grail keepers. They are doomed to repeat the same scenario over and over until one of them figures out how to return the grail to its rightful place.
Harry will be the one to figure it out. The grail goes back. Time reverses and he grows up without that scar.
Dumbldore can see both time lines.
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lobelia - Aug 4, 2004 7:58 am (#168 of 565) Reply
The previously mentioned theories are very thought provoking, however, I am inclined to disagree that Neville is the Potter's child and Harry's twin. I do not think that the Longbottoms' child dies and Neville is given to them for his protection. I have no facts or lines from the books, this is just a gut feeling.
The first thing I think about is poor Neville. While his character is growing in strength, he has also had a sad life. His parents are alive but not comforting as a parent could be. He lives with his grandma and has an uncle that tried to force the magic out of him. I think that if Neville is really a Potter, you weaken the storyline of the Longbottoms' sacrifice. They sacrificed themselves for the Order and knew that being part of the Order could mean death and not being there for their son. Remember the part where the grandmother scolds Neville for not telling his friends about his parents. Neville seems to gain some strength from the fact that his parents were, while in the psych ward now, brave and strong, before the tragic events.
I also think of the poignancy of the scene where Neville keeps the gum wrapper his mom gave to him. I think this is one of the sweetest scenes in the novels. (I also think that they are memory charms.) Would this scene see so sweet to us if later we find out that he was keeping a wrapper from a woman he barely knew (less than a year and a couple of months) who adopted him to protect another family's twin son?
There also seems to be a significant amount of text in the books about Neville's family being concerned that their "Pureblood" family member would be a squib. Enough concern that his uncle dangled him out the window. With all of the pretentions we hear about the purebloods being better wizards, would it matter as much if the adopted child and half-blood would show less magical promise.
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Lupin is Lupin. Natch. - Aug 4, 2004 8:18 am (#169 of 565) Reply
There also seems to be a significant amount of text in the books about Neville's family being concerned that their "Pureblood" family member would be a squib. Enough concern that his uncle dangled him out the window. With all of the pretentions we hear about the purebloods being better wizards, would it matter as much if the adopted child and halfblood would show less magical promise. –lobelia
Assuming the twin theory is accurate, perhaps the Longbottoms were merely concerned that whatever spells and memory charms that had been placed on Neville might have affected his ability to perform magic.
But I think you make a valid point regarding the sacrifice the Longbottoms made and its value should this theory prove true.
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Kasse - Aug 4, 2004 8:24 am (#170 of 565) Reply
Lobelia, you raise some excellent points, got me thinking......
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Rosebud221 - Aug 4, 2004 8:25 am (#171 of 565) Reply
Solitaire --- OOOOOO! I like that idea. Got to think on that one a little more!
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Solitaire - Aug 4, 2004 9:41 am (#172 of 565) Reply
Rosebud ... I actually think it is a horrible idea. But it just kind of occurred to me when I read the twin theory. So much tragedy has happened thus far that I worry about what will become of Neville and Harry. I have a horrible, sick feeling that Harry will cause the death of someone close to him (check my Remus Lupin fears), which will further scar him and possibly lead to his own demise.
Do you suppose JKR really checks out the theories posted here? They certainly do seem to be more intelligently organized and posed here on the Forum than in some places I've seen.
Lobelia, I have to agree with you about the scene with Neville's mom in the hospital. That entire passage is very poignant in a couple of ways. Harry's sudden realization that the people in the end of the ward were Neville's parents and his attempt to remove Ron, Ginny, and Hermione from the ward before they saw him ... and his feeling that he "did not think he'd ever found anything less funny in his life" when Mrs. L gives Neville the gum wrapper ...
I think both of these moments are important, because they show an awareness within Harry of Neville's very real grief--his parents may be technically alive, but what made them who they were is just as lost to Neville as James and Lily are to Harry. I think this really is one of Harry's shining moments.
Solitaire
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zaaaach - Aug 4, 2004 12:12 pm (#173 of 565) Reply
I like this idea, some of it seems a little far-fetched but I think you may be going somewhere with the Holly/Oak theory.
I think JKR may bring this into play later in the book because we often hear Hagrid saying how he and Harry are one and the same or how Harry reminds him of himself when he were younger, how both lost their parents and both thought they wouldn't fit in at Hogwarts (GoF). And note that Hagrid's wand was 16 inches long and oak.
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Round Pink Spider - Aug 4, 2004 12:21 pm (#174 of 565) Reply
Yes, Zach. And actually, after some thought, I agree with you. Although I think he means well, I think Hagrid is very dangerous to Harry. I believe his "interestin' creatures" have placed Harry in danger in most of the books. This doesn't mean Neville may not come in with an oak wand, also, but yes, I am aware, and I agree. Oak and Holly are not a good combo.
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Solitaire - Aug 4, 2004 12:29 pm (#175 of 565) Reply
Round Pink Spider, did you check my post ... #166? I'd be curious to hear what you have to say about my Neville/Harry question. Thanks.
Solitaire
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Round Pink Spider - Aug 4, 2004 12:43 pm (#176 of 565) Reply
Edited Aug 4, 2004 1:56 pm
If Neville and Harry are indeed fraternal twins, could one of the lines in "the prophecy" apply to them?
I agree, Solitaire. I think “either must die by the hand of the other” sounds like three, not two. But I still think that Harry will be the one who must ultimately defeat Voldie. I think it may be Neville’s death (or near-death) that may spur Harry in the end.
This is all an ancient Egyptian curse placed on the families of King Arthur, the knights and the grail keepers. They are doomed to repeat the same scenario over and over until one of them figures out how to return the grail to its rightful place.
Harry will be the one to figure it out. The grail goes back. Time reverses and he grows up without that scar.
:-D
I think that if Neville is really a Potter, you weaken the storyline of the Longbottoms' sacrifice.
Lobelia, I don’t believe they would love Neville any less for his being adopted! They would have had him since the day he was born. They would love him as if he were their own child. I believe love comes from the everyday sacrifices we make, it doesn’t just happen. And frankly, I would not be surprised to discover that the Order exists partly for the purpose of protecting the “grail” and the royal line.
Yes, I think it would be a terrible wrench for Neville to discover that his “parents” are not his parents. But would Neville love them less for having sacrificed their sanity to protect him when they weren’t related?
On the pureblood subject, I do not believe anyone in the Longbottom family knows but Frank and Alice. They would believe he was pureblood. And yes, I think one can keep that kind of thing secret. I doubt the other Longbottoms knew that Frank and Alice were in the Order, for example.
I have a horrible, sick feeling that Harry will cause the death of someone close to him (check my Remus Lupin fears), which will further scar him and possibly lead to his own demise.
Solitaire, I’m more worried right now that Harry will feel responsible when Dumbledore goes down. I think Lupin will make it through at least into book 7.
EDIT: by the way, Solitaire, I was HIGHLY impressed by your comments on the "Chambers" thread.
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contess lillein asend - Aug 4, 2004 2:18 pm (#177 of 565) Reply
I may be wrong but I swear I was looking for something else this am and read the part where Neville was talking about Uncle Algie hanging him out the window. I think it said his family was afraid he was all "muggle" not squib. How could a pure blood be muggle. I am trying to find it again, but the books are starting to run together.
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TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 4, 2004 2:42 pm (#178 of 565) Reply
Here you go Contess SS, pg 101
‘ “Well, my gran brought me up and she's a witch,” said Neville, "but the family thought I was all- Muggle for ages. My Great Uncle Algie kept trying to catch me off my guard and force some magic out of me --he pushed me off the end of Blackpool pier once, I nearly drowned -- but nothing happened until I was eight. Great Uncle Algie came round for dinner, and he was hanging me out of an upstairs window by the ankles when my Great Auntie Enid offered him a meringue and he accidentally let go. But I bounced -- all the way down the garden and into the road. They were all really pleased, Gran was crying, she was so happy. And you should have seen their faces when I got in here -- they thought I might not be magic enough to come, you see. Great Uncle Algie was so pleased he bought me my toad." ‘
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Solitaire - Aug 4, 2004 4:18 pm (#179 of 565) Reply
Thank you, Round Pink Spider. I feel like I'm in heaven, having discovered a whole site where people do nothing but talk about Harry! One poster put it well ... The Forum is a sort of Pensieve for US to put all of our ideas, thoughts, speculations, theories, etc., about the world of HP.
I do hope that Dumbledore will begin working more closely with Harry in Book 6. If it is DD's destiny to die so that Harry may vanquish the Dark Lord--and I think DD understands death more and fears it less than any of the other characters--then Harry needs to be prepared for this eventuality, so that he is strengthened rather than weakened and disabled by it (as he nearly was with Sirius).
Regarding Neville's possible reaction to learning that the Longbottoms are not his family (if this WERE the case) ... I can only believe he would love them MORE for having essentially sacrificed their lives for him. The real blessing in such a circumstance would be finding that he has a brother he already loves and who loves him ... for I think Harry and Neville are slowly coming to regard each other as deep and faithful friends. The tragedy would be to find each other only to be ripped apart again.
Whatever happens ... if Neville turns out to be an awesome wizard upon getting his new wand, I hope he goes home and drops Uncle Algie on HIS head!
Solitaire
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contess lillein asend - Aug 4, 2004 5:21 pm (#180 of 565) Reply
Thanks Twinkles, now why would his Pureblood family think he is all-muggle and not all squib? Freudian slip?
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Madame Librarian - Aug 4, 2004 6:35 pm (#181 of 565) Reply
Do they possibly use the term in a half-joking, derogatory way, much like we might say, "Oh, little Festus is part fish, you know," about a little kid who loves to swim when everyone else in the family hates the water? Or refer to a wild, bratty kid as being a "little heathen savage." (Whew. Not very nice things to say, are they?)
Either that or it is a pure JKR splinch.
Ciao. Barb
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contess lillein asend - Aug 5, 2004 12:27 am (#182 of 565) Reply
Neville's grandmother does not strike me as the joking type. Do they seem humorous to you?
RPS - It's 3am and I can't sleep....so I thought up this doozie for you..
When Salazar Slytherin left Hogwarts, he left a curse on the school. He felt betrayed by his best friend (Gryffindor) and the rest. Maybe the four most powerful students each 25 years are doomed to replay the same "betrayal" scenario.
Peter claimed to be James' best friend and betrayed him. Some people are suspicious that Ron is going to betray Harry. Did Volde have a best friend that gave him up also? Who is the right age... Could this be one of the secrets of Hogwarts?
ALSO... Voldemort, had a few questions. If mother was a witch how did she die in childbirth? I mean if a car crash can't kill you.. Was Tom Riddle attacked as a child and his mom gave her life to save him? Did DD take him to his muggle father and leave him on a doorstep with a note? Did his muggle father (in the spirit of Aunt Marge) cart him off to an orphanage?
THE EGYPTIAN CURSE THEORY - what if when the curse is lifted the magic world reverts to muggle status. Harry is the only one that remembers the other world and he wrote it all down for us.
And finally... I still think Frank Bryce is a player in this game. We know way to much info about him and DD knows about him. What if DD owns the riddle house? Frank was 77 years old, about Volde age. He has that bad leg that hurts (I don't recall a mention of DD's hurting)he received in the war. Could he be Petunia and Lili's father? Was he a wizard and had his memory modified via "obliviate?" He appears to be guarding the Riddle House, maybe a "phoenix feather" warning system? When Harry witnesses the interactions in the Riddle House he appears to be viewing it through Frank's eyes or beside Frank.
Just some middle of the night musings.
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Round Pink Spider - Aug 5, 2004 4:28 am (#183 of 565) Reply
Edited Aug 5, 2004 5:30 am
Do they possibly use the term in a half-joking, derogatory way, much like we might say, "Oh, little Festus is part fish, you know"
I think I agree with you, Madame Librarian. Maybe in the wizarding world, squibs are virtually equated with Muggles (a certain amount of discrimination there). Certainly they must exist on the fringes of a society which they know about but in which they cannot take part.
I do hope that Dumbledore will begin working more closely with Harry in Book 6. If it is DD's destiny to die so that Harry may vanquish the Dark Lord...then Harry needs to be prepared for this eventuality, so that he is strengthened rather than weakened and disabled by it (as he nearly was with Sirius)
I have no doubt that DD will begin working more closely with Harry. He'd better! But I'm not sure anything can prepare Harry for losing DD. Having people die for him just destroys him. I would guess that's where his "saving-people-thing" comes from (ooops, forgot, this is just a book, got to remember that...).
I think Harry and Neville are slowly coming to regard each other as deep and faithful friends. The tragedy would be to find each other only to be ripped apart again.
And perhaps, from such pain (or the desire to save Neville), Harry will find the strength to do what needs to be done.
Whatever happens ... if Neville turns out to be an awesome wizard upon getting his new wand, I hope he goes home and drops Uncle Algie on HIS head!
Absolutely. Uncle Pond-scum definitely needs an attitude adjustment. :-D
When Salazar Slytherin left Hogwarts, he left a curse on the school. He felt betrayed by his best friend (Gryffindor) and the rest. Maybe the four most powerful students each 25 years are doomed to replay the same "betrayal" scenario.
Well, Contess, I wouldn't stick with the "25 years" thing necessarily...but maybe the "avatars" of Slytherin and Gryffindor are doomed to repeat this until it's settled, either by the demise of all the heirs of one side, or by the houses finally uniting. Maybe that's why Harry had to be "marked": to unite Slytherin and Gryffindor in himself. If he "wins," that'll be the end of it. As for everything reverting...we'll have to wait and see. The best (and funniest) idea I ever heard for the end of the last book was that all this was being told as a story by Harry to this woman on a train...can you picture it? :-D Harry gets off at a station, and as the train pulls out, JKR looks back over her shoulder, and he's disappeared...
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Round Pink Spider - Aug 5, 2004 4:42 am (#184 of 565) Reply
ALSO... Voldemort, had a few questions. If mother was a witch how did she die in childbirth? I mean if a car crash can't kill you.. Was Tom Riddle attacked as a child and his mom gave her life to save him? Did DD take him to his muggle father and leave him on a doorstep with a note? Did his muggle father (in the spirit of Aunt Marge) cart him off to an orphanage?
Sorry, Contess, missed these in the above post. One can apparate out of a car crash, but not out of childbirth (otherwise I would have tried it!). Attacked? I doubt it. Surely that would have left some good in him. I would guess maybe the midwife in the village tried to take him to his father, but your guess is as good as mine. But yes, I have no doubt his muggle father shipped him off to the orphanage. Fortunately, it sounds like we'll find out more about all this in the next book.
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Rosebud221 - Aug 5, 2004 6:22 am (#185 of 565) Reply
I always thought that in most ways witches and wizards are just as human as the rest of us. I always thought the horror Hagrid expresses at the thought of the car crash thing wasn't the fact that as magic folk Lily and James could avoid death that way, but just as an insult to the memory of the way they died.
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Ann - Aug 5, 2004 6:42 am (#186 of 565) Reply
Rosebud, that's the way I saw it, too. On the other hand, we have the account of Neville bouncing when he is dropped from a window, so it may be that wizards have some sort of resilience.
As for Dumbledore working closely with Harry, for example in extra DADA tutorials, I suppose it is possible, but he is an awfully busy man. But I wonder whether there are spells that need love to do, just like the cruciatus apparently needs hate. It certainly would be useful for him to learn them, if so, though it is hard to imagine what they might be. Perhaps protective charms like the one Dumbledore has put on Harry at Privet Drive.
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Solitaire - Aug 5, 2004 6:52 am (#187 of 565) Reply
Regarding dying in childbirth, if Tom's mother was a witch, wouldn't he have been born in a Wizarding hospital? I would imagine Wizarding childbirth is a snap when compared to some of the things (like regrowing bones) Madam Pomfrey considers run-of-the-mill.
Would Tom have been around at the time of Grindelwald? If there was a war back then, could his mother have died in it? Also, perhaps she was like Luna's mother ... died from a spell that went horribly wrong.
As for Frank Bryce, hadn't he just continued to live on the Riddle property as caretaker?
Solitaire
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Solitaire - Aug 5, 2004 7:18 am (#188 of 565) Reply
I never got the idea, Ann, that DD was too busy to work with Harry. In OotP, Dumbledore explains why he did not work with Harry to teach him Occlumency. He simply feared the uses to which LV would put Harry if he realized that DD & Harry had a relationship closer than Headmaster and student.
Interesting idea about charms that are the opposite of unforgiveable curses. I like that.
Solitaire
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Round Pink Spider - Aug 5, 2004 8:48 am (#189 of 565) Reply
Me too. Excellent thought, Ann!
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Loony Loopy Larissa - Aug 5, 2004 10:52 am (#190 of 565) Reply
I doubt Dumbledore could find anything more important than teaching Harry Defense Against the Dark Arts. All that he has been trying to accomplish for over a decade centers on Harry being able to defeat Voldemort.
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Ann - Aug 5, 2004 1:39 pm (#191 of 565) Reply
I was just reading the Occlumency & Legilimancy thread, which I'd never noticed before (no one's posted since early July, so it's at the bottom of the list), and I find that Wandless Wizard in post 40 has come to much the same conclusion that I did about perhaps there being spells that use love, but sort of the other way around. It's part of a whole theory of the use of emotions in magic, and is really subtle and interesting. Many of the other posts there contribute to it, and there are other good ideas in there as well. Highly recommended!
Reading these threads does make one realize the probability of multiple independent inventions!
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Madame Librarian - Aug 5, 2004 2:25 pm (#192 of 565) Reply
Regarding Tom's mother's death--I had speculated a while back (long ago and them more recently) that she had some deep, dark secret that kept her from returning to her family and/or the wizard world when Tom, Sr. dumped her. Were they on the Evil side of things and she not (or, vice versa--was she the nasty one and they good)? Was she disowned for marrying a Muggle? At any rate, when she started labor, she couldn't do it on her own, so she got herself to a Muggle hospital. Things went badly, and being a witch, Muggle medicine did her no good at all, even caused more trouble (remember the disaster at St. Mungos when that medic experimented on Arthur). I don't think wizards are impervious to injury and illness, just a bit more resilient that Muggles. There are all sorts things that can go wrong during childbirth, especially if one is already under great stress-- alone, scared, maybe not sleeping or eating well, maybe having been abused physically.
BTW--I think this may be another episode of "false memory syndrome" on my part, but is there a canon reference to the poor woman dying because she sought childbirth help or was taken in by Muggles or the orphanage itself?
Ciao. Barb
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contess lillein asend - Aug 5, 2004 3:25 pm (#193 of 565) Reply
Good thought Librarian! I love the muggle hospital angle. I bet we even tried to sew her up.
I like what you said about not being able to go home because she married a muggle. I was trying for a while to make Volde's mum Uncle Melifula's sister. Sirius' grandparent's brother (oldest and therefore direct descendant). I just loved the way Marvolo Melifula sounded.....
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Rosebud221 - Aug 6, 2004 6:02 am (#194 of 565) Reply
Don't forget though, childbirth is a completely "normal" thing. I would think that Muggle medicine should work for something normal. Arthur's problem was magical, I wouldn't expect muggle medicine to work on magic.
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Round Pink Spider - Aug 6, 2004 6:13 am (#195 of 565) Reply
Edited Aug 6, 2004 7:39 am
Ditto, Sarahbud (you're here early!).
Okay, I promised Madame Librarian I would drop another shoe in a couple of days, and I delayed a day because I thought the discussion was interesting. But the weekend's almost here, so I’m ready to drop it now. Here’s another literary reference: the play Macbeth. You English majors are probably aware that the song “Double, Double, Toil and Trouble” in the PoA movie came from Macbeth. But there are more important connections between Macbeth and Harry Potter.
If you’ve read Macbeth, you may be aware that there are three witches in the play, known as “the Weird Sisters.” It’s entirely appropriate that, in Harry Potter, the Weird Sisters should be a singing group, because it was the original Weird Sisters who chanted “Double, double, toil and trouble.” What’s less obvious (and more important) is the meaning of the word “weird.” In this case, it doesn’t mean “bizarre.” Instead, it comes from the Old English word “wyrd”, meaning “fate.” The Weird Sisters, effectively, are the three Fates (Past, Present, and Future), who know what will happen and utter prophecies which, although accurate, may conceal their ultimate meaning and deceive the hearer.
Macbeth consulted the three Weird Sisters about his future fate. They summoned forth apparitions that told him (among other things) that “none of woman born / Shall harm Macbeth,” and that “Macbeth shall never vanquished be until / Great Birnam Wood to high Dunsinane Hill [Macbeth's castle] / Shall come against him.” Since he believed such things were impossible, he assumed that that meant that he could murder the king and seize the kingship with impunity. But it turned out that his foe, Macduff, had been born by Caesarian section, and he and his army approached the castle camouflaged by branches cut from Birnam Wood. Macbeth was defeated mostly because he was overconfident that he understood the true meaning of the prophecies he had heard!
We have a prophecy that Voldemort may be misinterpreting, and what may be a royal line. Could Voldemort’s overconfidence in his understanding of the prophecy lead to his downfall, as it led to Macbeth’s?
Another important theme of Macbeth is doubling, mirror images, and opposites. We’ve seen lots of twins, mirrors, and mirror images, both in the books and the movies. And Harry and Voldemort seem to be opposites. Bellatrix, the one female DE (very like Lady Macbeth in many ways), with her vicious babytalk, is the opposite of Molly, the motherly witch who considers Harry “as good as a son” to her. And then, of course, there’s “Double Potions,” “Double Herbology,” and so on. I’m sure there are many more.
At the end of SS/PS, Harry receives the Stone through the agency of his image in the Mirror of Erised. Even ignoring the possibility of Harry having a living “mirror image,” there’s a huge amount of meaning in this connection with Macbeth.
Let the games begin!
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Madame Librarian - Aug 6, 2004 8:26 am (#196 of 565) Reply
Edited Aug 6, 2004 9:36 am
RPS, what good stuff! Another big thing about Macbeth is the setting--Scotland. OK, a little simplistic, I admit.
I will absolutely plotz if there's a scene somewhere in book 6 or 7 with Bellatrix (or Molly, wow) complaining about how filthy her hands are! The reason I even allow the possibility it would involve Molly is that she is so into the cleaning of 12GP. Oh my gosh--Petunia is a perfect fit for that scene! Double wow.
What were the Weird Sisters brewing? Towards the end they use the term "gruel," which implies something to eat (aaack, ick). OK, for the record, here's the scene:
ACT IV, Scene I. A cavern. In the middle, a boiling cauldron. Thunder. Enter the three Witches.
First Witch:
Thrice the brinded cat hath mew'd.
Second Witch:
Thrice and once the hedge-pig whined.
Third Witch:
Harpier cries 'Tis time, 'tis time.
First Witch:
Round about the cauldron go;
In the poison'd entrails throw.
Toad, that under cold stone
Days and nights has thirty-one
Swelter'd venom sleeping got,
Boil thou first i' the charmed pot.
ALL:
Double, double toil and trouble;
Fire burn, and cauldron bubble.
Second Witch:
Fillet of a fenny snake,
In the cauldron boil and bake;
Eye of newt and toe of frog,
Wool of bat and tongue of dog,
Adder's fork and blind-worm's sting,
Lizard's leg and owlet's wing,
For a charm of powerful trouble,
Like a hell-broth boil and bubble.
ALL:
Double, double toil and trouble;
Fire burn and cauldron bubble.
Third Witch:
Scale of dragon, tooth of wolf,
Witches' mummy, maw and gulf
Of the ravin'd salt-sea shark,
Root of hemlock digg'd i' the dark,
Liver of blaspheming Jew,
Gall of goat, and slips of yew
Silver'd in the moon's eclipse,
Nose of Turk and Tartar's lips,
Finger of birth-strangled babe
Ditch-deliver'd by a drab,
Make the gruel thick and slab:
Add thereto a tiger's chaudron,
For the ingredients of our cauldron.
ALL:
Double, double toil and trouble;
Fire burn and cauldron bubble.
Second Witch:
Cool it with a baboon's blood, Then the charm is firm and good.
Enter HECATE. To the other three Witches.
HECATE:
O well done! I commend your pains;
And every one shall share i' the gains;
And now about the cauldron sing,
Live elves and fairies in a ring,
Enchanting all that you put in.
Music and a song: 'Black spirits,' & c
HECATE retires.
Second Witch:
By the pricking of my thumbs,
Something wicked this way comes.
Open, locks,
Whoever knocks!
My old paperback edition of the play does not give away too much about the incantation other than to explain the prophecy they tell Macbeth (see RPS's post above). There are all kinds things in the chant that we bump into in HP--yew, fingers (removed from a "birth-strangled babe"--ewww), dragons, wolves, fairies, elves.
I haven't a clue as to whether we're on-topic here or not, but this sure is interesting.
Ciao. Barb
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Rosebud221 - Aug 6, 2004 8:43 am (#197 of 565) Reply
OK, gang, you're so much more learned than I! I feel truly humbled. I'm ashamed that I've forgotten more of my Shakespeare than I ever learned.
This sounds like a good fit to me though. Something occurred to me about the whole lineage thing while I read your post RPS, Dumbledore doesn't seem too worried about Harry when he's with the Weasleys. Do you think that there might be some kind of blood link between Lily and/or James and the Weasleys? I know that they're members of the Order, that they love Harry and all of that, but I can't help but wonder...
Barb, I love your additions, too. I'll have to pull out my complete collected works tome this weekend and see what else bubbles to the top of that cauldron! :-) Makes me wish that I didn't have to paint our porch...
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Madame Librarian - Aug 6, 2004 8:56 am (#198 of 565) Reply
Edited Aug 6, 2004 9:56 am
Thanks, Sarahbud, I blush.
I, too, have forgotten more of the Bard than I ever studied, and I was an English major with a specialty in Shakespeare!! It just so happens, I'm pretty handy with looking stuff up on the Net, and I was fortunate in that when we set up the wall unit in our den, I had the foresight to keep all the Shakespeare plays on the same shelf.
If this has any bearing on HP, I don't know, but I love the idea that Macbeth is the one play that most theater companies recognize as infused with magical bad luck. In the theater building itself, one is never to say the title. It is referred to as "the Scottish play." Until opening night, there are all sorts of superstitious rituals actors and crew will observe in order to assure a smooth and peril-free performance. Any theater folk out there to ponder this and find a tie-in with HP? A stretch, I know.
Ciao. Barb
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TomProffitt - Aug 6, 2004 9:34 am (#199 of 565) Reply
I will absolutely plotz if there's a scene somewhere in book 6 or 7 with Bellatrix (or Molly, wow) complaining about how filthy her hands are! --- Madame Librarian
Actually, it was Molly complaining about how dirty Ginny's hands are!
This makes me very upset that I can't remember my Macbeth (it has been 22 years), so post what it means, please.
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Round Pink Spider - Aug 6, 2004 10:20 am (#200 of 565) Reply
It's not a bit off-topic. My original topic was effectively clues from literature, really: Arthurian legend, and the Grail legends. I connected it to the background of Harry's family, and while I was on the topic of Harry's family, I threw in the bit about Neville because I felt like I was seeing clues other people weren't. So, essentially, the topics are: Harry's family, and connections in literature, stories, and legend that may shed light on Harry Potter, and especially on his family background. A broad topic, but I think we've stayed with it pretty well.
Tom, if someone doesn't get to it first, Lady Macbeth, when she started going crazy with guilt, started sleep-walking, and trying to wash "the blood" of the murdered king off her hands. Earlier in the play, she was saying that blood was easy to wash off.
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TomProffitt - Aug 6, 2004 10:22 am (#201 of 565) Reply
Ah, thanks RPS.
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Madame Librarian - Aug 6, 2004 10:24 am (#202 of 565) Reply
Edited Aug 6, 2004 11:26 am
Tom, Lady Macbeth is losing it. She's so embroiled in the murders that she imagines blood stains on her hands. Is it the guilt making her imagine this? Actually, she's sleepwalking when this scene takes place. She is being observed by a doctor and a gentleman
Act V, scene. I--
Lady: Out, damned spot, out, I say! One; two. Why then 'tis time to do't. Hell is murky. Fie, my lord, fie! a soldier, and afeard? What need we fear who knows it, when none can call our pow'r to accompt? Yet who would have thought the old man to have had so much blood in him?
[A gentleman and a doctor watching her, comment on how strangely she's acting lately.]
Lady: The Thane of Fife had a wife. Where is she now? What, will these hands ne'er be clean? No more o'that my lord, no more o'that! You mar all with this starting.
[More comments from the doctor and other guy.]
Lady: Here's the smell of blood still. All the perfumes of Arabia will not sweeten this little hand. Oh, oh, oh!
A wonderful scene!
Ciao. Barb
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riddikulus - Aug 6, 2004 10:59 am (#203 of 565) Reply
WoWeee RPS. Do you work? lol j/k You do devote so much time and effort to this. It's appreciated.
I suppose what can be concluded is, like most of the great works of today, it's similar to great works of yesterday. That JKR is not only well read, but uses her great imagination and ability, to our great enjoyment.
You may 100% right in all this and when the time comes, I may just bow down to you.
Since I've been skeptical till now... and I'm no quitter... I'll just read in awe for now, your wonderful efforts, with a bit of uncertainty.
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Rosebud221 - Aug 6, 2004 11:09 am (#204 of 565) Reply
WW, your comment is not far off base. I once heard it said that the great stories have all been written and the writers of today are merely re-writing... To our delight and pleasure I might add or we wouldn't be waiting with such impatient anticipation for HBP (and others).
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Round Pink Spider - Aug 6, 2004 11:10 am (#205 of 565) Reply
Edited Aug 6, 2004 12:35 pm
Wow, thanks, Riddikulus! That was glowing praise! Thanks!
You bet I work, I've got six kids on summer break right now. In fact, I've got to go get my youngest out of his crib, he just woke from his nap. But when I'm watching the baby, HP gives me something to do...And, as I've told Sarahbud, I'm prone to insomnia, and I work this stuff out during the night.
EDIT: actually, a last comment (before I start the dishes...); I said to Sarahbud that I think JKR is doing something VERY original. I think maybe she's using other famous works of literature, legends, stories, even kid's stories, to give us clues about her work, as sort of a "literary shorthand," if you will. Also, shes choosing ones that come together as part of her theme. And she's formed them into a mystery that's uniquely hers, with the best sense of humor I've ever seen. I know of nothing else like it! I stand humbled in her shadow.
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riddikulus - Aug 7, 2004 7:21 am (#206 of 565) Reply
Holy Hopping Hungarian Horntails!
Even more awesome that you find time to put together theories and type them up for us....coherently.
We're in agreement on JRs impressive wit.
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timrew - Aug 7, 2004 3:17 pm (#207 of 565) Reply
Here's a bit of the witches’ charm that's not reported in Shakespeare.....
Double double, toil and trouble,
Fire burn and cauldron bubble.
Seal the charm with haddocks eyes,
End up with Big Mac and Fries!
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Round Pink Spider - Aug 7, 2004 3:37 pm (#208 of 565) Reply
Yeah, well, who wants potion, anyway?
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Solitaire - Aug 7, 2004 4:36 pm (#209 of 565) Reply
I posted on the Mirror thread last night regarding some of the Macbeth parallels mentioned here, and Round Pink Spider has asked that I copy that part of my post to this thread. So from post 58 on the Mirror thread ... here goes!
... I began thinking of the Bloody Baron the other ghosts who always join the feasts ... and making the connection to Banquo's ghost at Macbeth's table.
Oh, dear ... now I am starting to connect things ... about how a host is responsible for his guests' safety as long as they are under his roof--rather like Petunia and Harry.
The Weird Sisters speak in paradoxes--"when the battle's lost and won"--because that's what will happen when Harry does battle with Voldemort. One will lose, one will win ... or maybe Harry must lose in order to win?
Solitaire
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Veritaserum - Aug 8, 2004 6:30 pm (#210 of 565) Reply
Or must Harry lose in order to win? –Solitaire
I love that idea. Very symbolic. Sadly I've never read Macbeth, but I think the idea that JKR uses literature as clues is wicked awesome! Holy cow, how does she come up with it all?
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Solitaire - Aug 8, 2004 7:57 pm (#211 of 565) Reply
Veritaserum, I think you might really like Macbeth. A couple of my junior high-ers have read it and really enjoyed it. There was an HBO cartoon (not funny, though) version of Macbeth produced about 12 years ago, and a super-condensed version found its way into Scope Magazine. I bet you could find it online or at a video store. Check it out ... it's worth it. There are lots of connections between the play and Harry's world.
Solitaire
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Rosebud221 - Aug 9, 2004 1:40 pm (#212 of 565) Reply
This just keeps getting better & better!
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Kevin Corbett - Aug 10, 2004 1:01 am (#213 of 565) Reply
Edited by Aug 10, 2004 2:04 am
You know, I'm right now reading "That Hideous Strength" by Lewis, and that sort of already had me meditating on the Arthur thing. Maaaaaaaybe the HBP really does have something to do with the Arthurian legend/myth/whatever, but I don't know yet. However, someone said above that Harry would unite the houses like Arthur did the Brits---but I hope it isn't so, because, mythological or historical, all of Arthur's army was killed, he only just escaped, and the Anglo-Saxons took over Britain.
contess lillein asend--- As I recall from my Silmarillion (which JKR need not have read, as I'm merely talking archetypes in the genre), the mother of the strongest, craftiest and most intelligent of the elves (Feanor) died from childbirth, and in that the reasoning was that the child was so great and had so high a doom (fate) that giving birth to him sapped all the life from her. Perhaps (tho Feanor, if hardly a saint, was no Voldy in the insidiousness of his greatness) it was the same sort of thing---so much innate power lay in the unborn Tom Riddle that just squeezing him out meant death for his mother. And Solitare, I think his mother was just so dejected by being thrown away like lasts nights sport's section by her husband (does it ever say they were married? I'm really just assuming then, I guess) that she didn't know where to turn, and probably ended up giving birth in a gutter or something (maybe her family disowned her for marrying a muggle if she was, as a descendent of Slytherin, a pureblood), and thus young Tom was recovered by muggles and sent to their orphanage.
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Round Pink Spider - Aug 10, 2004 3:56 am (#214 of 565) Reply
Kevin -- great thoughts on Feanor/Voldemort. I remember that bit, although I had to give up on the Silmarillion (with the way they don't die, I just kept getting more and more confused between all the different elves). But I do remember Feanor and his brothers and their terrible oath. Anyway, Voldie did call Tom Riddle Sr. "her husband", and although he is a liar, I suspect it's true. And from what he said, they had their own house, since he "moved back with his parents" as I recall. Probably without her husband's money, she lost the house.
As I said earlier on this thread, I think JKR is tapping into different literature as a form of literary shorthand: helping us to see the relationships and giving us clues through them. She never uses all of a legend or goes with all the details. So just because there are references to Arthurian legend, that doesn't mean everything that happened to Arthur will happen to Harry. She might have used those legends simply to imply that Harry is "the one who was destined to unite Britain against the enemy," bringing all the foes of the enemy into one camp.
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Elanor - Aug 10, 2004 4:58 am (#215 of 565) Reply
I loved your posts Kevin and RPS ! Speaking of Tolkien and "the one who was destined to unite Britain against the enemy", it reminds me of Aragorn too. Finally, his destiny (also foretold by a prophecy) was to unite all the free people, whatever was their origin was, under his banner, to resist and fight Sauron. But, you're right, this is just a parallel too, like so many little stones scattered by Tom Thumb...
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Round Pink Spider - Aug 10, 2004 5:17 am (#216 of 565) Reply
The "king" who is destined to fight evil and unite the forces of good is one of the basic stories of humanity. You can find it in any number of books and legends. If you've ever read The Belgariad by David (and Lea) Eddings, you'll find yet another version of this story, again told with much humor and humanity.
Actually, I wonder if JKR has read The Belgariad, because, in that set of books, there was an enemy wizard whose name the good guys had to avoid saying, so as to avoid drawing attention to what they were doing. In the end, to give themselves more freedom to speak, they had the kings of the different countries get their minstrels and storytellers to start telling the old stories in which the evil wizard was mentioned, so that so many people would be using his name that he wouldn't be able to pick out the pertinent information any more. Just what Dumbledore is trying to get people to do, if you think about it!
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riddikulus - Aug 10, 2004 10:03 pm (#217 of 565) Reply
RPS: I was just thinking (yes, very dangerous for me and those around me) "Remember my last" I was thinking... weird theory... I'm tired and will regret this, im sure... maybe it's not Neville, maybe it's Dudley.
Maybe Petunia and Vernon couldn't have a child of their own... maybe they acquired Ickle Duddykins and just maybe he's from a wizard family... maybe one well known.
Isn't he also born at the end of July?
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Solitaire - Aug 10, 2004 11:00 pm (#218 of 565) Reply
Edited Aug 11, 2004 12:01 am
Yikes, Riddikulus! Can you imagine Dudley with a wand? The Ministry thinks they have trouble with Harry ... I'm betting the Dudster would be MUCH worse! OMG!!! You have just given me a creepy thought. Dudley and Neville ... switched at birth! I wonder ... could Dudley be a "changeling"?
If I recall properly, a changeling is a child born to elves or fairies who is either ugly, stupid, bad-tempered, or a combination of those things. The fairies or elves don't want a kid like this, so they switch him with a mortal child who is beautiful, smart, etc.
Now ... let us apply this to the WW. The Longbottoms give birth to a child who is kind of a dummy, not too bright, bad-tempered, ugly. He isn't recorded as magical (in other words, he is a Squib).
Uncle Algie and Gran Longbottom find this intolerable. They do a bit of research and learn that a Muggle couple (Aunt Pet & Uncle Vernon) have given birth to a Wizard on exactly the same day. What's even better, he LOOKS a little like their boy.
While Frank and Alice are off fighting the DEs, Gran and Algie take their baby and exchange him with the Wizard, leaving their "dud" in his place. Since the new baby LOOKS like their Neville, they tell no one. Before Frank and Alice can ever learn about the switch, they are incapacitated. No one will ever know.
Dudley is really the "dud" or Squib Longbottom child. Neville is really the Muggle-born Wizard son of Petunia and Uncle Vernon. This could account for the Longbottoms' fear that Neville's powers were so slow to show up.
I know ... what a terrible thing to do to poor, sweet Neville. Okay, you can forget it. I'm sure it's nothing ... but ... could THIS be the memory Dudley sees or remembers in his encounter with the Dementor?
Solitaire
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Round Pink Spider - Aug 11, 2004 3:55 am (#219 of 565) Reply
Comfort yourself, Riddikulus...According to the Master Timeline in the Lexicon, Ickle Diddikins was born in June. I believe the only time Harry was there for his birthday was in the first book. They don't have a date, but they said it was in June. In any case, I don't think the Dursleys would have fawned all over him that way if he hadn't been theirs.
But Dudders with a wand? Oh horrors (for all concerned). The question is, will that happen? JKR did say, someone is going to show magic at a later-than-normal age...
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Rosebud221 - Aug 11, 2004 5:51 am (#220 of 565) Reply
But DUD-ley? Is that too much of a leap, Oh master of clues? I have always thought that too much emphasis is placed on Dudley for him to remain a relatively minor character.
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TomProffitt - Aug 11, 2004 5:53 am (#221 of 565) Reply
I have always thought of Dudley and Draco as character foils for Harry. They are not there to advance the plot, but to give us someone to compare Harry to.
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Rosebud221 - Aug 11, 2004 7:05 am (#222 of 565) Reply
That's what I always thought, too, but they seem to be getting stronger as the stories roll along... I guess it all remains to be seen.
It would be interesting though if the Dud winds up magical. If the gene (so to speak) is present in Petunia, why the heck not?!
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Round Pink Spider - Aug 11, 2004 7:55 am (#223 of 565) Reply
Oh, I agree that Dudley might be magical, Sarahbud (although I'd prefer it to be Petunia...it might make her less bitter toward Harry, and ick, Dudders with a wand!). But I find it highly unlikely that Dudley and Harry are the twins. There are no clues supporting it, whereas you know that I've found more and more clues supporting Harry and Neville.
I think both Draco and Dud have a role to play, especially after Dudley's exposure to dementors in OotP.
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Siriusly - Aug 11, 2004 8:16 am (#224 of 565) Reply
How about his one:
Harry is not the marked twin. Neville is. It almost killed him. Snape and DD gave Neville the potion to put a stopper in death, but he was confunded and almost powerless. Volde does not know there are two. They took Harry who was laying in the other crib and gave him a scar that is not real, gave him fame and glory and hid Neville away.
Harry really does not possess any extraordinary powers. The only power he possesses is his capacity to love and be loved, his kindness and compassion he inherited from his mother. Which will be Volde's downfall.
Neither (Harry or Neville) can live while the other (Volde) survives.
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riddikulus - Aug 11, 2004 8:35 am (#225 of 565) Reply
Edited by Aug 11, 2004 9:57 am
lol You guys... seriously, I was sleep-typing when writing that. I really should be more awake and coherent ... not that it makes that much of a difference, generally ... when stating things. But, I just had that far off theory about The Dudders and thought "wouldn't it be interesting?" I certainly can't imagine Dudderkins with a wand... he's probably a squib, IF anything at all...as Duddles hasn't shown any magical abilities.
RPS adopted children would be fussed over, just as much... sometimes more... maybe because of the appreciation of having something they wouldn't, otherwise. But even if he wasn't adopted from a wizard family, Petunia knows that a wizard can be born to muggle parents. I think they'd be walking on eggshells all the time, with their apparent hatred of the wizarding world...praying their “Dudder The Wunder” would never turn "abnormal."
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Lady Arabella Tue May 31, 2011 8:48 pm
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Round Pink Spider - Aug 11, 2004 9:57 am (#226 of 565) Reply
Edited Aug 11, 2004 10:58 am
...Volde does not know there are two. They took Harry who was laying in the other crib and gave him a scar that is not real, gave him fame and glory and hid Neville away...Harry really does not possess any extraordinary powers. The only power he possesses is his capacity to love and be loved, his kindness and compassion he inherited from his mother. Which will be Volde's downfall...Neither (Harry or Neville) can live while the other (Volde) survives.
I'll agree that Voldie probably doesn't know there are two (yet)...but the evidence is that the scar is real (it hurts for a reason, and is giving him real information), and that Harry does have extraordinary powers (parseltongue is apparently an extremely rare gift). But I think in the end it will be his capacity to love and be loved that will be Voldie's downfall, not the extraordinary powers. As for "neither can live", I know that's one possible interpretation, and I think it might be a good one. But the jury's still out.
RPS, adopted children would be fussed over, just as much... sometimes more... maybe because of the appreciation of having something they wouldn't, otherwise.
I made a similar point a week or two ago, when someone suggested that Neville being adopted would make the Longbottoms' sacrifice less meaningful. But Petunia and Vernon don't seem generous enough to fuss over an adopted child that way. I just really think Dudley is their child, between his appearance and their behavior.
A few people have asked me (over on the Predictions thread) to add them to the e-mail list of people for our newsletter, and I shipped them some back issues today. I'll extend the same offer over here. But be warned! The theories on this thread are very characteristic of the contents of the newsletter (in fact, a modified version of the theory that started this thread was in the last issue, as was the Macbeth stuff.)
If you want to have the newsletter, but your e-mail is private, you can do what I did for Sarahbud, and put your e-mail below. When I've got it, I'll post that I've got it, and you can delete your post. It's not risk-free, but it's fairly safe. I'll check several times a day, just in case.
I'm sorry I haven't followed up on the Macbeth stuff, but I've been in the middle of an analysis of all the symbolic scenes we've found that concern HBP, in order to make some predictions about it. I've finished the analysis, but now I have to write about 25 pages of newsletter in the next week. After that, maybe I can dig into Macbeth some more!
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Annika - Aug 11, 2004 10:02 am (#227 of 565) Reply
RPS - I would love to receive the newsletter! Thanks. Can't wait to see it.
Annika
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Round Pink Spider - Aug 11, 2004 10:24 am (#228 of 565) Reply
Got you, Annika. Back issues on the way (that ought to keep you busy for a while -- nearly 100 pages...)
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Rosebud221 - Aug 11, 2004 10:25 am (#229 of 565) Reply
Annika,
Be careful what you wish for!
Hah! I'M JUST KIDDING! :-) I just couldn't resist. The newsletter is really wonderful. If you're a Potty you'll love it!
--SB
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Round Pink Spider - Aug 11, 2004 10:33 am (#230 of 565) Reply
Edited Aug 11, 2004 11:43 am
Aw, Sarahbud, now you've gone and hurt my feewings....(theatrical *sniff*)
Yeah, I know, kinda like drinking from a firehose, ain't it?
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Rosebud221 - Aug 11, 2004 10:44 am (#231 of 565) Reply
Sorry! My smart aleck personality (one of many!) just couldn't resist! ;-P
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Annika - Aug 11, 2004 10:47 am (#232 of 565) Reply
Rosebud, I have already considered the frightening implications of the newsletter in light of the fact that our dear RPS
is already infiltrating my dreams!Just a joke! Thanks again RPS!
Annika
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Siriusly - Aug 11, 2004 11:44 am (#233 of 565) Reply
RPS - I am not saying the scar in not "real". I am just saying it is not from Volde. It may be one of those protections DD laid on him. Or a "sneakscope" of sorts.
The power of parseltongue came from Volde. The "seeing" power may come from his mother, much as her protection saved him in 1. It just seems that he does not have much to do with how he is saved.
The way I see it, the HBP (I am at work and every time I see this I think, high blood pressure) has to come from Slytherin in order to unite the last house for book 7.
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Round Pink Spider - Aug 11, 2004 12:13 pm (#234 of 565) Reply
Siriusly,
I can tell you (because I just put in two weeks of brain-bending analysis on JKR's clues about books six and seven) that I think you are both right and wrong about Slytherin. I'm pretty sure someone's going to switch houses, but I'm almost 100% sure you've got the wrong person (so did I, before)...
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Solitaire - Aug 11, 2004 1:17 pm (#235 of 565) Reply
Okay, RPS ... are you going to tell us who you think the "switcher" is going to be? **panting in anticipation**
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Siriusly - Aug 11, 2004 1:17 pm (#236 of 565) Reply
You’re not saying what I think your saying, are you?
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Kasse - Aug 11, 2004 1:24 pm (#237 of 565) Reply
Hmm could you be thinking about Luna, RPS?
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Amilia Smith - Aug 11, 2004 1:42 pm (#238 of 565) Reply
A while back on the “Switching Houses” thread, RPS, you mentioned you thought Teddy Nott would be the one to switch. Is this who you are referring to now, or is this who you originally guessed, but have now changed your mind?
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Round Pink Spider - Aug 11, 2004 3:08 pm (#239 of 565) Reply
Siriusly, I don't know what you think I'm saying, because you didn't tell me what you think I'm saying.
It's not Luna, and it's not Teddy Nott (I was wrong). I suppose I'll put it on the Predictions thread when I've gathered my quotes, but it won't matter; I doubt anyone's going to believe me.
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Siriusly - Aug 11, 2004 3:45 pm (#240 of 565) Reply
You are not thinking, RON! Harry's father's best friend became a DE. You don't think history will repeat itself?
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Round Pink Spider - Aug 11, 2004 3:55 pm (#241 of 565) Reply
No, it's not Ron. Give me some time, I'll get back to it as soon as I've got my clues lined up. If I just told you you'd never believe it, and then I'd have to go dig out my clues right this minute.
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Kasse - Aug 11, 2004 4:01 pm (#242 of 565) Reply
Ok RPS we will be waiting in anxious anticipation.
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Chris. - Aug 11, 2004 4:05 pm (#243 of 565) Reply
RPS, please can I have this much talked about newsletter? I love your theories and would like to see more.
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Round Pink Spider - Aug 11, 2004 4:26 pm (#244 of 565) Reply
Sure, Prongs, back issues on their way, new issue next week if you're lucky.
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thetheatre62442 - Aug 11, 2004 4:31 pm (#245 of 565) Reply
Me too, if it's not too much trouble
You;ve got the greatest theories! it's [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Thanks so much!- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Siriusly - Aug 11, 2004 5:11 pm (#246 of 565) Reply
RPS - I am going through the slow motion version of the Volde attack in SS/PS. I swear the first child seen and the second are not the same child. Also you notice the light is so low that Harry's mother's eyes are dilated so much you can't tell what color they are? In every other scene her eyes are shut.
Then when we see her in the mirror of erised, same thing and you have that blue wash on everything. What is JK hiding?
Count me in on the newsletter by the way, [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Thanks
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Round Pink Spider - Aug 11, 2004 5:18 pm (#247 of 565) Reply
Edited Aug 11, 2004 6:20 pm
They might not be the same child, Siriusly. You need to remember that child labor laws place very stringent requirements on the number of minutes toddlers can spend in front of a camera. Even a tiny scene like that can take hours to shoot, so they usually try to get twins for toddler roles (now that's what I call ironic...)
Even were Neville the one attacked, Siriusly, they wouldn't both have been in the same room at the time...
EDIT: I'll send the back issues out to you with the next bunch (had 11 other takers so far). I'll send them out tomorrow morning at the latest.
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Siriusly - Aug 11, 2004 5:23 pm (#248 of 565) Reply
Edited Aug 11, 2004 6:26 pm
That what I meant, sorry if unclear.
They could have been in the same room, if say mom put Harry down, covered him with the now famous invisibility cloak and was turning to pick up the other when Volde appears.
Also you notice in the scene that the nursery is very large from the outside. And is that an owl mobile?
Appreciate all you do.
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I Am Used Vlad - Aug 11, 2004 5:26 pm (#249 of 565) Reply
RPS, please send me your newsletter, too.
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Solitaire - Aug 11, 2004 6:31 pm (#250 of 565) Reply
Siriusly, I think we need to be careful about putting TOO much trust in the movies. There are things in the movies that are not accurate to the books.
Lady Arabella- Prefect
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Join date : 2011-02-22
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Lady Arabella Wed Jun 01, 2011 9:19 pm
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MickeyCee3948 - Aug 11, 2004 7:32 pm (#251 of 565) Reply
Agreed Solitaire, I felt that as good as the movies were, they left out way too much of the pertinent facts. Personally I didn't start reading the books until after CoS. My wife brought them for the grandkids and I just took a set (bad, bad Mikie) for myself.
Mikie
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Round Pink Spider - Aug 11, 2004 8:50 pm (#252 of 565) Reply
Actually, MickeyCee, I think it works both ways. JKR seems to have gotten visual clues worked into the movie that aren't in the books. But granted that the movie "clues" are not necessarily reliable...I joked once that maybe she let them leave clues out of the movies to encourage people to read the books (you think maybe?).
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Solitaire - Aug 11, 2004 11:01 pm (#253 of 565) Reply
RPS, I saw the first two movies before reading the books, and I was surprised that it was Prof. Binns rather than Prof. McGonagall who told the kids about the CoS. I do think that most of the changes that ARE done are probably "cosmetic" and don't really hurt the integrity of the basic story.
It's been a while since I watched either movie. Perhaps I need to get them out and have a look again. I sort of OD'd on them at one point, so I put them away. Perhaps it's time ... Does anyone know when PoA hits the stands?
Oh, and Mickey ... I think you deserve a whole box of Bertie Botts Every Flavour Beans for reading the grandkids' books! Bon appetit!
Solitaire
(BTW, I saw Harry Potter candy at the store a while ago when I ran down to grab some dinner. I was afraid to buy any Every Flavour Beans.)
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Round Pink Spider - Aug 12, 2004 3:13 am (#254 of 565) Reply
Ditto. But when we had our first Round Pink Spider meeting, we had an HP themed party, and we got mixed Jelly Bellies to stand in for Bertie Bott's (they're safer, no unnatural flavors!).
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Madame Librarian - Aug 12, 2004 6:18 am (#255 of 565) Reply
My clever husband got me a box of Every Flavour Beans for a b-day gift. The flavors are labeled, but I'm still afraid to open it. I'll save it for posterity. Collector's item, someday?
Ciao. Barb
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Kasse - Aug 12, 2004 6:31 am (#256 of 565) Reply
... Does anyone know when PoA hits the stands? –Solitaire
It hits the stands on Nov 23 2004 but is now available to pre order from Barnes and Nobel.
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Loony Loopy Larissa - Aug 12, 2004 8:31 am (#257 of 565) Reply
I've tried every one of the (labeled) Every Flavor Beans. Even the vomit one isn't all that horrible... at least it didn't make me want to be sick. The grass one is so wonderful. It is easily my favorite. Where's the fun without a little suspense?!
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Siriusly - Aug 12, 2004 9:20 am (#258 of 565) Reply
I would never mistake the movie as canon, I just know JKR had more input on these scenes then elsewhere...
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Rosebud221 - Aug 12, 2004 9:23 am (#259 of 565) Reply
MickeyCee!
Yes! Bravo for stealing the books! My parents actually gave them to me. They heard so much about them that they went out and bought them and after they both read them gave them to me.
I know, I know. What's so strange about that, right? My parents were in their 60's & 70's at the time & I was about 30!
You go!
My twins (pictured) are now the 3rd generation to love Harry. They saw a piece of one of the movies and wouldn't let us turn it off. We now get Harry'd to death almost every night. “Mumma, Harry Pottuh????” (they try to say it like McGonagal) “Watch Harry? Watch Harry?!”
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Penny Lane. - Aug 12, 2004 6:19 pm (#260 of 565) Reply
And to get back on topic...
I think that having anyone else defeat Voldemort would really be a letdown. The books are about Harry Potter, not Neville Longbottom. The books are now leaning towards the topic of Harry coming to understand that sometimes the good of the one (himself) may be outweighed by the good of the many. Also, I really feel that to have Neville be anybody but Neville would really take away from his character. JKR has said that she took away Dean's story to concentrate on Nevilles. I took that to mean that she didn't have Neville's story planned from the very beginning, but she has said that she has had Harry's planned. Therefore, it just wouldn't make sense.
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MickeyCee3948 - Aug 12, 2004 8:23 pm (#261 of 565) Reply
Edited Aug 12, 2004 9:25 pm
Rosebud221-I know what you mean. My oldest granddaughter also assists me in putting together some of my theories and 4 of my 5 other grandchildren demand to see either the CoS or PS/SS dvd each and every time they spend the night.
My oldest granddaughter is 12 and I don't think she had read a book longer than 150-200 pages before JKR came along. She has now read all of Harry's books at least twice and her and I are reading Macbeth and King Arthur's Legend so she can learn more. This is the legacy that JKR has left our children and grandchildren and we all owe her more gratitude than we could ever repay.
You Go-JKR
Mikie
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Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 12, 2004 8:41 pm (#262 of 565) Reply
Edited Aug 12, 2004 9:45 pm
Penny L., I think that each of the characters in their own way will contribute to Harry's learning process and they will give him the knowledge he needs to defeat Voldemort so while, Dean's full story may not be included in the books. I believe that Dean will still have a contribution to make in the upcoming books even though his role will be dramatically altered from J.K. Rowling's original intent. I would further argue that the members of the Order and the D.A. are rapidly becoming a second family to Harry. I would argue that Snape as loathsome as he acts towards Harry is after a fashion looking out for Harry's well- being.
Best Regards, Nathan
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Penny Lane. - Aug 12, 2004 8:49 pm (#263 of 565) Reply
But I still don't believe that Neville and Harry are twins. To put Neville through the torment of seeing his parents every holiday at St. Mungos, but to still know and think of them as his parents, only to have all that taken away by having someone tell him that oh, well, he's actually Harry Potter's brother who was switched at birth? It's just doesn't sound right, and it's not JKR's style. Her books are about living with what you are delt. Not waking up one day and finding out that your father is actually your Professor who didn't want to take care of you so he switched bodies with his best friend.
The books are about how Harry Potter's parents were killed when he was one year old. If he was so loved by his parents, I couldn't imagine why any parent would give away one child and keep the other. Its too much like a dark version of "The Parent Trap."
Why would JKR take Harry's struggle away from him? The prophecy is something that Harry has to deal with. To suddenly say, “oh, wait, it's not you” would really be sending the wrong message. Not everything can be fixed with magic, people still die, people still lie, and occasionally people ARE who everyone thinks they are.
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Solitaire - Aug 12, 2004 9:26 pm (#264 of 565) Reply
Nathan, I agree that the Order and certain members of the DA are indeed becoming Harry's family.
When he looks in the Mirror of Erised for the first time, he sees his family standing beside him, supporting him. Since the death of his parents, he has never known that support in his lifetime. All of a sudden, on the train, six members of the DA come to his aid ... they stand with him and support him. When he walks through the barrier at the station, he sees Lupin, Moody, Tonks, the Weasleys ... standing with him and supporting him. And they make it clear to the Dursleys that they ARE supporting him.
In a sense, the end of book 5 is where that "deepest desire of his heart" is fulfilled. Yes, he has lost Sirius. That cannot be denied. But for the first time in his life, I think he realizes he is not alone. There ARE people who love him and would do anything for him.
Solitaire (When I suggested this a week or so ago, someone accused me of being too saccharin. I'm sorry if it seems that way.)
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Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 13, 2004 8:46 am (#265 of 565) Reply
Edited Aug 13, 2004 9:57 am
Penny L., I do not think Neville and Harry twins either that is too much akin to a Star Wars-like ending. I do think however that both Neville and Dean will play a role in future books and will help Harry to learn what he needs to defeat Voldemort. But, that Harry alone is the only one able to defeat Voldemort.
The task of defeating Voldemort is one that the fates have ordained to be Harry Potter's alone. However, it is impossible to defeat one's enemy without knowledge. For Harry to defeat Voldemort he must learn about and acquire knowledge about not only his enemy but, also about himself. Because, the person who does not understand herself or himself will not defeat their enemy. The purpose of the D.A., and the Order is to assist Harry in acquiring this knowledge and to prepare him for the final confrontation
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shushu - Aug 13, 2004 9:43 am (#266 of 565) Reply
RPS, Could you add me to your newsletter list, [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]?Thanks.
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Round Pink Spider - Aug 13, 2004 10:20 am (#267 of 565) Reply
Sure, Shushu. Are you new? I haven't seen your nickname anywhere before. I'll send you the back issues today, but be warned, the newsletter is very much in the same vein as the stuff on this thread! I'm working extremely hard right now on a very prolonged analysis of the symbolic scenes concerning books 6 & 7, so I won't be stopping in much over the next 5 days or so. I have around 20(?) more pages to write, I think -- it's gonna be a BIG issue.
Penny L., it's cool if you don't think Harry and Neville are twins -- if they are, it should come out in the next book, so we'll all find out. In the meantime, I hope you enjoy the literary analysis part of the thread.
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Steve Newton - Aug 13, 2004 10:29 am (#268 of 565) Reply
I looked up twin online ([You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] (American Heritage College Dictionary.
One of the many definitions is:
TRANSITIVE VERB: 1. To pair or couple. 2. To provide a match or counterpart to.
Part 2 of this seems to be a sure thing.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 13, 2004 10:46 am (#269 of 565) Reply
Edited Aug 13, 2004 11:46 am
I agree that the second definition is possible. I do not believe that Neville and Harry are twins in the biological sense. But, as was demonstrated in the Battle of the Department of Mysteries, they are counterparts clearly to each other.
Cheers, Nathan
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Steve Newton - Aug 13, 2004 11:01 am (#270 of 565) Reply
I should probably point out that I have no idea how a transitive verb is different from a regular old verb.
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shushu - Aug 13, 2004 11:08 am (#271 of 565) Reply
Thanks RPS. I received the first issue already and read it right away. Some interesting theories. Can't wait for the rest.
I am new to posting, however I have been reading the threads for some time.
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Ann - Aug 13, 2004 11:39 am (#272 of 565) Reply
Edited Aug 13, 2004 12:40 pm
Steve, "transitive" simply means the action of the verb involves something else, a direct object. So with "Harry runs." the verb is intransitive; "Harry kills Voldemort" (Yay!) the verb is transitive because it takes an object (Voldemort). The object can even be the person who does the action "Voldemort kills himself" (Yay!), but it has to be there. Many verbs can be used both in transitive and intransitive ways; every verb has to be one or the other. (Uh oh...why can't we stay away from these words?!?)
So "Neville twins Harry," if RPS is correct. But, actually, I don't think the verb can be used for biological twins, since they appear at (approximately) the same time.
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Steve Newton - Aug 13, 2004 12:19 pm (#273 of 565) Reply
Ann,
Thanks, I think, for the explanation. There is even a small chance that I will remember it.
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Siriusly - Aug 13, 2004 3:38 pm (#274 of 565) Reply
RPS - I think the new alchemy thread has the answer for which you seek? Egypt.
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Madame Librarian - Aug 14, 2004 5:43 am (#275 of 565) Reply
Hey, Steve, what does your dictionary show as the definition of "twin" as a noun?
Ciao. Barb
Lady Arabella- Prefect
- Posts : 2566
Join date : 2011-02-22
Location : Silicon Valley, CA
Posts 276 to 300
Lady Arabella Wed Jun 01, 2011 9:20 pm
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Steve Newton - Aug 14, 2004 8:10 am (#276 of 565) Reply
NOUN: 1. One of two offspring born at the same birth. 2. One of two identical or similar people, animals, or things; a counterpart. 3. twins Mineralogy Two interwoven crystals that are mirror images of each other. 4. A twin-size bed.
For now I'm ruling out the twin bed idea. 2 looks pretty good and 3 could be inspired. Mirror images.
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Siriusly - Aug 14, 2004 11:27 am (#277 of 565) Reply
Two Mercury, interesting.
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Round Pink Spider - Aug 14, 2004 11:30 am (#278 of 565) Reply
Hmmm? Two Mercury? Stop teasing me, Siriusly, and out with it!! And what's that bit about the CoS movie virtual tour? Is it the Phoenix --seal--goblet thing on the mirror image boards?
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Siriusly - Aug 14, 2004 11:46 am (#279 of 565) Reply
Mercury seems to be the most important step in alchemy (you should see the stuff I have already RPS). My thought is you would want to have two mercury elements in case one slipped through your fingers.
COS DISK TWO - You can go to Diagon Alley or Tour of Hogwarts. On Tour of Hogwarts there is the option of Classrooms. Click classrooms, Go to McG's class (signified by cat of course) when you enter, the blackboard keeps posting something similar to that of the classroom but totally different. I copied the whole thing, took forever because it keeps erasing and reposting. Most of the clues are Hogwash (hahaha) but there is a portion that works. Later when I went to the library, as the scene loads, it shows you the same information with the portion that works highlighted in red.
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Round Pink Spider - Aug 14, 2004 11:56 am (#280 of 565) Reply
Siriusly, I don't have a Tour of Hogwarts on CoS disk 2, at least not that I can find. How do you get there?
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Siriusly - Aug 14, 2004 12:33 pm (#281 of 565) Reply
Edited Aug 14, 2004 1:41 pm
Sorry my fault, Its on Sorcerer’s Stone disk two ( i watched them both back to back) Oh you have to go to Diagon Alley and get money and a wand before it will let you do anything
Oh,RPS - I started laughing when I read this - one step in sequence of alchemy process - Treatment in Hermetic Vase with color change. Thought you would like that.
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Round Pink Spider - Aug 14, 2004 2:08 pm (#282 of 565) Reply
So lock him up by himself, treat him, and he changes color? Ha ha ha *plop* (laughing my head off).
I'll have to look at the disk 2 stuff tomorrow or so, I need to go take a nap, then I'm going out later with my computer for about two hours of serious writing.
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Ozymandias - Aug 14, 2004 2:30 pm (#283 of 565) Reply
RPS, can you put me on your newsletter mailing list too, please? I'd love some Potty email, and I just adore reading your theories, even if I don't always agree with them.
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Siriusly - Aug 14, 2004 2:53 pm (#284 of 565) Reply
Edited Aug 14, 2004 3:58 pm
RPS - I, in my research, found this stunner:
From the bottom of our hearts we ought to thank the modest men who held in their hands the magical Emerald Formula that makes a man master of the world, a formula which they took as much trouble to hide as they had taken to discover it. For however dazzling and bright the obverse of the alchemical medallion, its reverse is dark as night. The way of good is the same as the way of evil, and when a man has crossed the threshold of knowledge, he has more intelligence but no more capacity for love. For with knowledge comes pride, and egoism is created by the desire to uphold the development of qualities that he considers necessary. Through egoism he returns to the evil that he has tried to escape. Nature is full of traps, and the higher a man rises in the hierarchy of men, the more numerous and the better hidden are the traps.
A. Cockren - History of Alchemy @ [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Can you say Holy Cow Batman.
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Ann - Aug 14, 2004 3:04 pm (#285 of 565) Reply
Very nice, Siriusly!
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Round Pink Spider - Aug 14, 2004 4:42 pm (#286 of 565) Reply
Sounds like something DD would have written.
Emerald Formula? As in all the Emerald green? So what is this "Emerald Formula?"
Ozymandius, it's OK with me if you want to read the newsletter, but, as I just told Mike Miller over on the Members' Chat thread, it's like this thread but PhD (piled higher and deeper). If you find some of this hard to believe...well, let's just say I avoid certain topics on the Forum because I've found people just don't want to hear them, clues or no clues. The Harry/Neville thing is right on the edge of what people are willing to hear. But our club does believe them, and in the newsletter, I'm writing for our club, not the Forum.
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Round Pink Spider - Aug 15, 2004 5:31 am (#287 of 565) Reply
OK, Luna, I've got you, you can delete that post! I keep all the back issues on file, it's very easy for me to send them. About 90 pages of reading material, headed your way! The next newsletter ought to be out next week, so read fast.
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LooneyLuna - Aug 15, 2004 11:00 am (#288 of 565) Reply
Thank you, RPS!!
julie
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Siriusly - Aug 15, 2004 7:11 pm (#289 of 565) Reply
RPS – The watch on Jo's desk is truly the watch of an alchemist.
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Round Pink Spider - Aug 16, 2004 4:39 am (#290 of 565) Reply
Edited Aug 16, 2004 5:43 am
In what way, Siriusly?
I'm going to throw y'all a crumb from my latest newsletter (most of you are going to be getting it soon and there's lots better stuff in it, but anyway...
Here's another literary reference. When I first saw the description of the Durmstrang ship, I laughed and said, "It's the Flying Dutchman!" I was right. Here's some stuff I got on the legend of the Flying Dutchman:
“The legend of The Flying Dutchman is said to have started in 1641 when a Dutch ship sank off the coast of the Cape of Good Hope: Captain van der Decken was pleased. The trip to the Far East had been highly successful and at last, they were on their way home to Holland. As the ship approached the tip of Africa, the captain thought that he should make a suggestion to the Dutch East India Company (his employers) to start a settlement at the Cape on the tip of Africa, thereby providing a welcome respite to ships at sea. He was so deep in thought that he failed to notice the dark clouds looming and only when he heard the lookout scream out in terror, did he realise that they had sailed straight into a fierce storm. The captain and his crew battled for hours to get out of the storm and at one stage it looked like they would make it. Then they heard a sickening crunch - the ship had hit treacherous rocks and began to sink. As the ship plunged downwards, Captain van der Decken knew that death was approaching. He was not ready to die and screamed out a curse: "I WILL round this Cape even if I have to keep sailing until doomsday!" So, even today whenever a storm brews off the Cape of Good Hope, if you look into the eye of the storm, you will be able to see the ship and it's captain - The Flying Dutchman. Don't look too carefully, for the old folk claim that whoever sights the ship will die a terrible death. Many people have claimed to have seen The Flying Dutchman, including the crew of a German submarine boat during World War II and holidaymakers. On 11 July 1881, the Royal Navy ship, the Bacchante was rounding the tip of Africa, when they were confronted with the sight of The Flying Dutchman. The midshipman, a prince who later became King George V, recorded that the lookout man and the officer of the watch had seen the Flying Dutchman and he used these words to describe the ship: "A strange red light as of a phantom ship all aglow, in the midst of which light the mast, spars and sails of a brig 200 yards distant stood out in strong relief." It's pity that the lookout saw the Flying Dutchman, for soon after on the same trip, he accidentally fell from a mast and died. Fortunately for the English royal family, the young midshipman survived the curse.”
From the site ms.essortment.com/dutchmanflying_rrqy.htm
I assume you see the connection between Harry and the prince who became King George V...
EDIT: I believe Disney's "Black Pearl" was based on the ghost ship the Flying Dutchman also.
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TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 16, 2004 5:42 am (#291 of 565) Reply
RPS, could you please resend me the newsletters? My computer crashed and I lost EVERYTHING! Thank you in advance.
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Round Pink Spider - Aug 16, 2004 6:19 am (#292 of 565) Reply
Yikes! That's so awful when that happens! (For me that would be ultimate devastation, I never back up my work enough. Think I'll take that as a warning, and back up my work right now!)
Newsletters comin' back at ya.
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TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 16, 2004 6:29 am (#293 of 565) Reply
Edited Aug 16, 2004 7:30 am
Be sure to backup you address book, after 7 years online, that's what I miss the most, my memory and other backups can replace the rest. Talk about overlooking the obvious! :-) ACCIO ADDRESS BOOK!
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Madame Librarian - Aug 16, 2004 2:45 pm (#294 of 565) Reply
Edited Aug 16, 2004 3:47 pm
RPS, here's the synopsis of Wanger's opera, "The Flying Dutchman." Thought the Forum might enjoy it, too. I found it on a Google site called metopera.org/symopses/hollander.html (I'll bet you can put in the title of any opera and get a good re-cap)--
Der Fliegende Holländer Richard Wagner
“Norway, 1700s. An icy storm drives the sea captain Daland's ship miles beyond his home on the coast. As the sky suddenly darkens and the waters again grow rough, another ship, a ghostly schooner, arrives and drops anchor next to Daland's. Its captain, the Flying Dutchman, steps ashore, despairing of his fate. He once swore he would sail around the Cape of Good Hope if it took him forever, and the devil took him at his word. Once every seven years he may leave his ship in search of a woman who will redeem him from his deathless wandering if she gives him faithful, absolute love; failing this, he is condemned to roam the seas until the Day of Judgment. He tells Daland of his plight and offers a reward of gold and jewels for a night's lodging. Then, discovering that Daland has a young daughter, the Dutchman asks for her hand in marriage. Daland, seeing the extent of the stranger's wealth, immediately agrees. Instructing the Dutchman to follow, Daland sets sail for his home port. At Daland's house, his daughter, Senta, dreamily watches village women as they spin and make sails. They tease the girl about her suitor, the huntsman Erik, but she remains in a trance. Staring at a portrait of the Flying Dutchman, she sings a ballad about the phantom captain. With burning intensity she prays that she may be the one to save him. Erik enters and, after the others have left, asks Senta to plead his cause with Daland. Noticing her preoccupation with the Dutchman's picture, he relates a frightening dream in which he saw her embrace the Dutchman and sail away in his ship. Senta exclaims that this is her own dream as well, and the despairing Erik rushes away. A moment later, the Dutchman himself stands before the girl. He tells her of his sad lot, and she vows to be faithful to him unto death. Daland blesses the union.
At the harbor, the villagers celebrate the sailors' return. They invite the Dutchman's crew to join them but are frightened away by the ghostly crew's weird chanting. Senta soon rushes in, pursued by Erik, who insists she has pledged her love to him. Overhearing this, the Dutchman believes himself betrayed and jumps aboard his ship. As horrified villagers crowd the shore, he reveals his name and nature and sets sail. Senta runs to the top of a cliff, triumphantly proclaiming herself faithful unto death, and leaps into the sea.”
Totally off-topic...so sorry.
Ciao. Barb
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Hollywand - Aug 16, 2004 2:46 pm (#295 of 565) Reply
Round Pink Spider, can you please tell me what alchemy grids Siriusly is referring to give to you on the Alchemy thread that are being prepared? Is this something intended for publication?
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Siriusly - Aug 16, 2004 2:55 pm (#296 of 565) Reply
No it is not for pulication, it is research only.
RPS -
The watch has 12 planets. There are 12 steps in alchemy. Each step must be conducted at a presice time (during the appropriate Zodiac sign. There are 16 mineral/metals involved in the process, mixed during different stages. Thus 12 planets tell you when, 16 marks tell you what.
I thought that last night.
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TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 16, 2004 3:08 pm (#297 of 565) Reply
Edited Aug 16, 2004 4:08 pm
There are 12 uses for dragons’ blood too!
Ok, am going now...
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Hollywand - Aug 16, 2004 3:14 pm (#298 of 565) Reply
Siriusly, you have made a couple of remarks on the Alchemy thread the "Round Pink Spider" will be annoyed with you if you mention this or that, and to me, this kind of cryptic messaging and references is exclusive and not in the spirit of the Lexicon. Archangel, Elanor, Zelmia and the others working on the theory have been careful to include and credit others. That's the rule of ethic of fairness in an academic conversation. Since one of the moderators of the Lexicon suggested we consider presenting the Alchemy theory at the Accio conference, I intend to ensure that everyone who contributed ideas gets credit for them if it does get any sort of public attention. That's only fair.
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Round Pink Spider - Aug 16, 2004 3:50 pm (#299 of 565) Reply
Edited Aug 16, 2004 4:50 pm
I absolutely agree, Hollywand. Heavens, Siriusly, don't keep any secrets! Sharing is as much a part of our newsletter as it is a part of the Forum! And I would be delighted to give credit in my newsletter to all the people who are participating in creating this neat theory. Mostly I was asking Siriusly (after participating in learning about alchemy) to go searching through the books for bits of text that might be alchemy references. And I have never had a problem with Siriusly sharing those either! But identifying meaningful bits of text is an important part of the research for our newsletter, and I told Siriusly that I don't have time to do the necessary research in this case, because it means learning a totally new subject. So I asked Siriusly if she would do it, in preparation for an article in our newsletter.
If I have ever "reserved" information, it was either because I didn't have my references ready, or because I thought it was a theory that wouldn't interest people on the Forum.
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Hollywand - Aug 16, 2004 3:58 pm (#300 of 565) Reply
Great, Pink Spider, thanks for clarifying that you are going to publish the references in your newsletter. It would only be cricket to give credit to all those members of the Order of the Lexicon who contributed to the theory, and they are noted on the transcript of the Alchemy thread. Thanks!
Lady Arabella- Prefect
- Posts : 2566
Join date : 2011-02-22
Location : Silicon Valley, CA
Posts 301 to 325
Lady Arabella Wed Jun 01, 2011 9:22 pm
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Siriusly - Aug 16, 2004 5:16 pm (#301 of 565) Reply
I would never do that. I have no intention of publishing anything, I would not know where to start. I am just a nurse from Texas who lives alone and has a lot of time on my hands. I have no children so I work and the rest of the time I do what I want. I have no interest in recognition, publication any of that. Take it all, I don't care.
In fact I am not going to do the assignment.
I have found the answer. I know the begining the middle and the end. I cannot do the assignment if I know the answer. I have been working on this for three months, completely obsessed with the puzzle. My friends think I am nuts. I don't have to look any further, I found the whole story.
Thanks for the opportunity RPS, but I will have to pass.
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Hollywand - Aug 16, 2004 5:37 pm (#302 of 565) Reply
Sirusly, it is frustrating if all of us contribute our ideas freely, then you hint that you have found some incredible solution, but refuse to share it with the rest of the group. I commend you for your efforts, but I hope you can understand that it's frustrating to hint at a resolution then withhold the information.
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Siriusly - Aug 16, 2004 5:40 pm (#303 of 565) Reply
Hollywand, If you want the answer - and I'm talking BIG SPOILER - then email me and I tell you where it is.
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Hollywand - Aug 16, 2004 5:57 pm (#304 of 565) Reply
I'd much rather have your good will and wait three years for the next two books. Friends, ok? ;-)
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Siriusly - Aug 16, 2004 6:58 pm (#305 of 565) Reply
I thought you might feel that way. Friends, yes.
I probably won’t be writing much, but I will keep reading.
Good Luck Children of the Light.
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Hollywand - Aug 16, 2004 7:07 pm (#306 of 565) Reply
I hope you will continue to contribute, and howzabout this for a mystery? Help me pal. I think the real clue on Jo's new update to the site is not the puzzle behind the door, that seems to me a red herring. I think the real tidbit is in Sibyll's tea cup, the Extra Stuff link. When you open the link, the clue will appear written on the text to your left on the bulletin board, then it is quickly covered by the blank piece of paper. Hah! I think she tricked everyone! What a prankster. Tell me if you see it.
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Siriusly - Aug 16, 2004 7:35 pm (#307 of 565) Reply
Hollywand, old buddy,
I am working on a lap top that won't apparate for a good 20 minutes. I'll check it out at work, you know the deluxe, touch screen, instant loading computers.
As to other, well....
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Hollywand - Aug 16, 2004 8:00 pm (#308 of 565) Reply
Ok, no sweat, child of the light. I have confirmations from others, thanks.
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Round Pink Spider - Aug 16, 2004 11:04 pm (#309 of 565) Reply
Hollywand, are you talking about the circled HB pointing to Gryffindor? Or are you talking something else?
This time I KNOW she's changed her board. Oh, I WISH I knew how to do screen captures...
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Round Pink Spider - Aug 16, 2004 11:13 pm (#310 of 565) Reply
S.E. Jones' post 865 on the J.K. Rowling Official Website thread shows a screen capture of the old bulletin board, so you can see the changes.
There used to be an identical piece like that on each side, as the link shows; now, on the right side, there's what looks like a diagram of the Room of Requirement and "Half-Blood Prince," written in large letters and circled.
(*Pardon me, please excuse me, I'm having another paranoid moment...*) :-o
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Round Pink Spider - Aug 25, 2004 5:21 pm (#311 of 565) Reply
Edited Aug 25, 2004 6:24 pm
Now that I've finished another issue of the newsletter, it's time for me to bring some more literary analysis to the Forum. (Although I'd still love to see something more done with Macbeth...Maybe I'll get back to that someday!)
My daughter and I noticed that, in the Harry Potter books, if you stick your nose into danger, it could get hurt. Dumbledore’s nose is so crooked it looks as if it may have been broken more than once. Moody is missing a piece of his nose. And Neville had his nose broken in the Department of Mysteries. Why all this focus on noses?
We think it’s a reference to another piece of children’s literature: “The Elephant’s Child” by Rudyard Kipling. In the story, the Elephant’s Child suffered from “ ’satiable curiosity”, and asked endless questions, for which his relations endlessly punished him.
He asked his tall aunt, the Ostrich, why her tail-feathers grew just so, and his tall aunt the Ostrich spanked him with her hard, hard claw. He asked his tall uncle, the Giraffe, what made his skin spotty, and his tall uncle, the Giraffe, spanked him with his hard, hard hoof. And still he was full of 'satiable curiosity! He asked his broad aunt, the Hippopotamus, why her eyes were red, and his broad aunt, the Hippopotamus, spanked him with her broad, broad hoof; and he asked his hairy uncle, the Baboon, why melons tasted just so, and his hairy uncle, the Baboon, spanked him with his hairy, hairy paw. And still he was full of 'satiable curiosity!
Then, one day, he developed a dangerous desire to know what the Crocodile had for dinner. After being spanked once again for his ’satiable curiosity, the Elephant’s Child set out for “the banks of the great grey-green, greasy Limpopo River, all set about with fever-trees,” to find out the answer to his question. Eventually, he met a Crocodile. Eagerly, he got down on his knees and asked the Crocodile what he had for dinner. And the Crocodile, of course, grabbed hold of his little nose, and said, “I think to-day I will begin with Elephant's Child!”
How does this connect with Harry Potter? First, keep in mind that the Elephant’s Child is being punished for asking questions. Then, if you look at the descriptions of Harry’s Uncle Vernon and Aunt Petunia, Uncle Vernon sounds a great deal like the Elephant’s Child’s broad aunt the Hippopotamus (“a big beefy man with hardly any neck, although he did have a very large mustache.”). Aunt Petunia sounds a great deal like his tall uncle, the Giraffe (she was “…thin and blonde and had nearly twice the usual amount of neck”). I would guess JKR switched “aunt” and “uncle” in this case, since women are generally more associated with gossip and spying on neighbors.
Then look at the description of Neville’s Grandmother in book 5: her hand was described as “shriveled” and “clawlike,” and, since her hat had a stuffed vulture on it, effectively she had tail-feathers. We haven’t yet seen Neville’s Uncle Algie yet, but we have already seen others in the book described as being “monkeyish” in appearance (Salazar Slytherin, for one), so it would hardly be surprising to see Uncle Algie described in that way.
Back in book 1, before Harry heard about Hogwarts, he was going to go to Stonewall High. Aunt Petunia was dyeing some of Dudley’s old things gray, and Harry thought he would look “like he was wearing bits of old elephant skin”. And in the Prisoner of Azkaban movie, after Neville ate a candy, he started making elephant sounds. (Speaking of the movie, did you notice the Fat Lady hiding behind a hippopotamus, and the giraffe walking through the paintings?) There are other references besides these, like Harry dragging his heavy trunk around.
So who’s the Crocodile? Well, one obvious answer is Rita Skeeter. Not only is she always damaging people’s reputations, she carries a crocodile-skin handbag, which she keeps closing with a SNAP. But I think the crocodile is essentially the enemy, who damages the nose (or reputation, or life) of the one “nosy” enough to intrude in his business. Neville’s nose was broken by a Death Eater. And in book 1, Quirrel said that Harry was “too nosy to live.”
We can still hope that Harry may survive his own encounter with “the crocodile.” But will his nose be unbroken? (Probably not!)
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Madame Librarian - Aug 25, 2004 6:54 pm (#312 of 565) Reply
OK, RPS, a very clever association. Next question for JKR on her website should be, "Tell us, Jo, were you a big fan of Kipling stories?"
Seriously, you've done a nice bit of supporting your theory.
Ciao. Barb
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Julia. - Aug 25, 2004 8:31 pm (#313 of 565) Reply
Oh, great catch RPS! I never would have thought to associate HP with Kipling. Take 15 points for your house.
I rather like this parallel to the Elephant Child. I just want to add the following bit. Remember, that in the end, the Elephant Child was better off for asking the question about what the crocodile ate for dinner. He got a cool new nose that he could use to grab food off the tall trees, spray himself with water on hot days, and spank everyone who had ever spanked him. Harry needs to learn the lesson here that although he used to be punished for asking questions, it is something he really needs to do now. If he doesn't ask questions, he'll never find out what's going on, and never enjoy any rewards that might come from it. Although the Elephant Child never did find out what the crocodile ate for dinner, he was greatly rewarded for asking the question and then going after the answer.
Now, what did Harry's parents do for a living? I guess he'll just have to head on down to the banks of the great gray-green-greasy Limpopo River all set about with fever-trees to find out.
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Solitaire - Aug 25, 2004 10:12 pm (#314 of 565) Reply
RPS, I think we have discussed before how Harry DOES keep sticking his nose into potentially dangerous things--Pensieves, for one. And isn't that always when he is "sucked into" them?
He didn't stick his nose into the diary, but he put his eye up to the little calendar thing that looked like a window--and his nose probably touched it, too. That is how he was pulled into it.
I like your "nose" theme ... very interesting!
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Round Pink Spider - Aug 26, 2004 5:50 am (#315 of 565) Reply
Julia, great point! Absolutely! Obviously Dumbledore would agree with you (since his nose has been nailed more than once).
Solitaire, yup. There's a connection right from "Elephant's Child" straight into "Through the Looking Glass", conjoined by the nose!
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riddikulus - Aug 26, 2004 9:43 am (#316 of 565) Reply
Edited by Aug 26, 2004 10:44 am
I’m sorry, RPS... haven't we established, JKR is well read and has been influenced by many great works? I don't see though, what the connection with this story has to do with HP though (aside from the obvious, nose thing)... does it show us a conclusion, based on the comparisons?
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Round Pink Spider - Aug 27, 2004 3:18 pm (#317 of 565) Reply
Calla, I'll send those to you ASAP.
Riddikulus, as I said a while ago, JKR uses her literary references as a shorthand to convey clues. Although I rather agree with Julia's remark (above), I think the most important nose clue (as opposed to a simple association, like the connection between Harry and Neville) is the chunk missing off the end of Moody's nose. As I said in my newsletter, it looks to me like the "croc" might just have gotten someone!
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definitelyCuivienen - Aug 27, 2004 7:53 pm (#318 of 565) Reply
Does that mean that you think Rosier was/will become an important character? (Rosier, IIRC, was the Death Eater who mangled Moody's nose. It's in GoF.)
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Round Pink Spider - Aug 28, 2004 4:25 am (#319 of 565) Reply
Edited Aug 28, 2004 5:27 am
Well, I think it's possible. Am I committed to it? No. There are other possibilities. But I'm not convinced that THIS Moody is the real Moody, either. There are some very threatening indications around him:
- Sirius said that Moody never killed suspects when he could help it, yet he was supposed to have killed Evan Rosier. JKR had Sirius mention that for a reason.
- Rosier supposedly took a chunk off his nose. And as I said above, with the connections to "Elephant's Child", I think we should be very nervous about someone who’s missing a piece of his nose.
- In book 3 on p. 105, Ron saw a blob “a bit like a bowler hat” in Harry's tea leaves. Moody wore a bowler hat twice in book 5 (Fudge wears a bowler hat also -- I don't trust him either).
- Moody kept poking Harry in the back on the way into St. Mungo’s. There are several references that indicate that Ron (under the Imperious Curse) may stab Harry in the back (literally), sending him to St. Mungo's in the next book. IF Moody were actually a DE, he'd be ideally placed to put Ron under the Imperious Curse before he goes back to school next year.
- I believe Moody was the person who was supposed to have been on duty at the DOM right before Sturgis (I couldn't find the reference this morning, but I remember Moody complaining that "Sturgis didn't show up"). Sturgis was put under the Imperious Curse, forced to try to break through the door they were guarding, and was arrested. Interesting timing, isn't it? Maybe Sturgis DID show up.
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Parrothead Patronus - Aug 28, 2004 11:50 am (#320 of 565) Reply
It's a good theory Spider but, If he isn't the real Moody would Crouch Jr. have turned into Moody or Rosier? Or would it be: Moody 1 (the real Moody)--> Moody 2 (Rosier)--> Moody 3 (Crouch)--> Moody 4 (Rosier again). I just don't know.
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argumentTwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 28, 2004 1:14 pm (#321 of 565) Reply
All those Moody's being someone else is really making me moody.
I think this Moody is the real one. I can't see JKR using that again.
Will the "real" Moody please stand up?
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Round Pink Spider - Aug 28, 2004 5:07 pm (#322 of 565) Reply
Edited Aug 28, 2004 6:07 pm
Twink, I sincerely hope you're right and I'm wrong (I really do!), because otherwise we have a DE running around that everyone (including Dumbledore) trusts! But the poking in the back REALLY bothers me...you've read Issue 4, I assume, so you know why...
Parrothead, IF I'm right (and as I said, I want to be wrong!), this is what I think MIGHT have happened:
Evan Rosier (perhaps) is a metamorphmagus (someone probably will be, now that we've been introduced to the idea). Evan got caught in a faceoff with Moody, and *surprise* managed to kill him. Evan was tired of being a Death Eater and wanted out. So he turned into Moody, transformed Moody's body to look like Rosier, and played out the part of Alistair Moody until the end of the First War. Voldie gets stopped, Evan breathes a sigh of relief, and retires from being an Auror.
THEN, Crouch comes after him, and he's captured. Voldie figures out that this Moody is actually Evan Rosier (he would still have the Dark Mark), considers him a traitor, and intends to kill him (he's the one who has "left forever", not Snape). Yada, yada, Dumbledore releases him from the trunk, and now Evan knows that he's dead meat unless he goes crawling back to Voldemort and offers to get him Harry Potter. Voldie figures having someone on the inside of the Order is worth sparing him, so now we have a traitor in the Order.
There are other possible scenarios (including Rosier being the real Faithful Servant and standing in for Bagman, and Crouch just being a fall guy), but that's the simplest.
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riddikulus - Aug 28, 2004 6:19 pm (#323 of 565) Reply
I'm sorry, once again... but, regarding Moody transforming into a person. I was under the assumption that you can only do that through Polyjuice potion. I think you can transform yourself to animal form, or animal to object... but I haven't seen any indication that you can transform to another human being. Otherwise, wouldn't Crouch Jr. and him mum just transform into one another, instead of going to all the trouble of using the potion, at least initially?
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Parrothead Patronus - Aug 28, 2004 6:38 pm (#324 of 565) Reply
Spider that explains it alot better. I hope it isn't true cause I like Moody. Was Moody wearing the hat when they went to St. Mungos? (I think he was) Maby it was just a hint that Fudge was going to be the one that puts the curse on Ron. He would have plenty of chances to do it without anyone seeing.
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Solitaire - Aug 28, 2004 9:41 pm (#325 of 565) Reply
The metamorphmagus idea makes sense from the standpoint of Rosier transforming himself to look like Moody and getting out of the DEs ... but the other way around? This would mean that Rosier was always carrying a flask of polyjuice potion around on the off chance that he could get someone to drink it and transform into him and transform himself into the drinker.
Question: If one dies while in the transformation state, does the transformation fade or just stay put? Since we are not told how much time passed between Mrs. Crouch's death (looking like Barty Jr.) and her burial, I just wondered if the effects would be permanent if one died while transformed.
A more difficult question: What if Rosier had killed the real Moody? How would he transform the body into him with it already dead? Is that an easier transformation to work? I know Barty Jr. transformed his dad into a bone and buried it. Since we have not yet "learned" with the kids how to do this, I just wondered if it were possible.
Solitaire
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riddikulus - Aug 28, 2004 11:14 pm (#326 of 565) Reply
Your idea of transforming got me thinking... I still don't see, other than with Polyjuice potion, a human can take the form of another human... although, I’m no expert on it, I honestly just don't know about it. But we do know about transfiguration. Animals to objects, Crouch to a bone, Humans to animals, etc. Well, My original theory of GG being the sorting hat got me thinking. What if it's not the hat at all. Pettigrew spent 12 years as a rat. What if someone has spent even more time as, say, a Phoenix? Is there anyone with knowledge on animaguses? Do you know if there are any animals, birds, etc. that are off limits to transform into?
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Round Pink Spider - Aug 29, 2004 6:29 am (#327 of 565) Reply
Riddikulus, I can't imagine why a metamorphmagus couldn't look exactly like an existing person. Just because Tonks has never done it...after all, JKR would probably want to avoid getting us thinking along those lines, if she was going to spring a surprise like this on us.
No, Solitaire, I don't think he was carrying polyjuice potion around. I would think it would be a fairly simple matter for Rosier to transform Moody's dead body to look like himself. And it appears that if one dies while under Polyjuice, one stays in that form. Crouch said that his mother was careful to drink it right up to the end, and she was buried looking like him. Whether it wears off days later...well, who wants to go and find out? (Yuck)
Parrothead, I hope you're right, but I don't quite believe it. Moody has a lot more opportunities to be close to Harry and Ron than Fudge is ever likely to have at this point. And as far as liking Moody...well, I liked the fake Moody too. (I'm a right little ray of sunshine, aren't I? Sorry...where JKR's characters are concerned, I belong to the "Better suspicious than dead" school.)
Riddikulus, I saw someone post something to the effect that JKR said no animagus can transform into a phoenix, but that's 5th-hand at best. I've never seen any comment of hers to that effect. I've got no problem with Fawkes being GG, other than that there're no clues to indicate it.
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Siriusly - Aug 29, 2004 6:50 am (#328 of 565) Reply
RPS - When Harry was told about Apparating without a license and Splinching, he had a vision of legs and an eye laying out on Privet Drive. I think that Moody will go down in the battle, but..if Rosier is Moody maybe they are just laying there because he has transformed back into himself to join the battle.
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riddikulus - Aug 29, 2004 8:22 am (#329 of 565) Reply
I can't imagine why a metamorphmagus couldn't look exactly like an existing person. Just because Tonks has never done it.
RPS. This is exactly why. I love your ideas... I enjoy your thought processes. You've given me lots of food for thought and got me to bend in areas I was initially rigid on. But, because she's never done it, is why I don't think it's going to be a factor. IF in fact, it was possible, we would have seen a foreshadowing through Tonks. JRs a brilliant writer, but when I've gotten to the end of each book, I've hit my head and said, duh... look where the clues lead us. I just don't see her springing something this interesting on us, in this form. Look, you may be right... I hope you are... I, personally, just don't see it... the metamorphagus factor and Rosier.
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Solitaire - Aug 29, 2004 2:28 pm (#330 of 565) Reply
But Riddikulus, Tonks DID talk about how useful being a metamorphmagus was to an Auror and how she got great scores in concealment and disguise ... and she also mentioned that they are really rare, and most wizards need wands or potions to change their appearances. But I think that the possibility HAS been set up for someone else to be a metamorphmagus.
Frankly, I've wondered if perhaps Harry might be one, given his ability to make that bad haircut grow back overnight. I wonder if he has ever tried to change his appearance since learning he was a wizard ... well, other than the polyjuice adventure. It might be interesting to see him try.
Solitaire
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Round Pink Spider - Aug 29, 2004 5:38 pm (#331 of 565) Reply
Edited Aug 29, 2004 6:43 pm
Oh, Solitaire, I SO hope you're right! That's what my daughter and I have thought in the past, and I hope that's the case. Since they're supposed to be so rare, I'd be surprised if there's more than one secret metamorphmagus running around, and I'd much rather it was Harry than Rosier...
Riddikulus, several more points:
1)IF Rosier were both alive AND a metamorphmagus, he'd be much older and more experienced at it than Tonks. Getting someone else's appearance exactly right would probably be a challenge.
2) JKR often adds on to things she showed in previous books. For example, she had Harry talk to a snake in SS/PS; in CoS we saw him use the same skill to open doors that only responded to Parseltongue.
3) Since getting it right would be a challenge, taking on someone else's appearance (unless it were to save that person's life) would be much more valuable to the bad guys than the good guys. Being unrecognizable would usually be enough for an Auror. Certainly we haven't seen Tonks in any situation yet that would have required it, although I could imagine it coming up.
Anyway, I've got no problem with "agreeing to disagree." I'm only arguing the point to bring it up. I really don't want to see this Moody be a bad guy too. Either way, we'll all find out eventually.
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Round Pink Spider - Aug 30, 2004 3:35 pm (#332 of 565) Reply
Thanks, Siriusly. Please do send references to my e-mail address, though, unless they concern what we're talking about. Otherwise it's going to get very confusing for those who don't get the newsletter.
That speculation about whether the brain left Ron any memories is very interesting! You might want to take that over to the Ron Weasley thread, and see what they make of it, just as an interesting idea!
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Siriusly - Aug 30, 2004 4:08 pm (#333 of 565) Reply
Edited Aug 30, 2004 5:09 pm
Sorry RPS, I read the earlier posts and was reading GOF at the time, got excited, my apologies.
If Harry is a metamorphagus now is the best time. We left him in book five wanting to be someone else.
Maybe, he is the new DADA teacher. The new clue is what he looks like and his name... Rhett Raypor, anagram of Harry Potter.
Nah, that would never work. When would he go to class?
Just kidding.
I wondered about the repeating theme idea. We had Polyjuice potion in COS, Used it again to get Barty Jr out of Azkaban, used it again to turn into Moody. Doesn't seem to be a problem.
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lupin's daughter - Aug 30, 2004 4:24 pm (#334 of 565) Reply
Edited Aug 30, 2004 5:25 pm
RPS, all I can say is that I am speechless and bow to a superior mind. and congrats on the great theory
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Round Pink Spider - Aug 31, 2004 6:56 am (#335 of 565) Reply
Hello and thanks, lupin's daughter. Are you new? I don't remember you visiting here before. Welcome!
Well, quite some time ago I admitted I got wrong who was going to switch houses, and I promised I'd tell Solitaire and the others who visit this thread eventually. This probably won't come up until the beginning of book 7, so it's gonna be a long time until we find out if I'm right...but it appears (from the stuff I did for my newsletter) that Harry's going to switch to Slytherin house. I have stuff to back me up in the newsletter, but it would take forever to explain...but there's been lots of indications all along (all that green stuff Mrs. Weasley gives him, Dobby's painting, etc.).
Anyway, it appears that Harry may end up in Voldemort's power, either at the end of book 6 or the beginning of book 7. I don't think he'll stay entirely under Voldie's control, but he'll have to pretend to be, to get close enough to Voldemort to do what needs to be done. I think Prof. Snape is going to be helping him a certain amount.
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Archangel - Sep 2, 2004 3:06 am (#336 of 565) Reply
Hello RPS! Can I be in your newsletter's mailing list as well, if it's not much trouble? My email add's in my profile. Thanks in advance!
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lupin's daughter - Sep 2, 2004 4:06 am (#337 of 565) Reply
RPS, I've been on the forum for a few months. But I don't post very often.
On the first page of PS/SS it is said that Aunt Petunia has not seen her sister for several years. If Lily and James were married just out of school and Harry was born when Lily was 20 then I do not think that Aunt Petunia was at the wedding. Also a thought on the funeral for Lily's parents. If they did die at the hands of Death Eaters and Petunia is the elder sister then she might not have wanted Lily/James or any wizard at the service. Her hate and predigest of the WW would have only been made worse by the death of her parents. She might have held that against Lily and shut her out the service. If this has been posted before I apologies for the re-post.
-jen-
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Round Pink Spider - Sep 2, 2004 10:48 am (#338 of 565) Reply
Archangel, I'll be happy to add you to my mailing list. I'll send you our back newsletters too (you'll need them, because I'm always quoting earlier newsletters -- I build on my old stuff). But my e-mail is down right now, and I may not be able to send them for a day or two. Also, I've had a lot of trouble with Hotmail -- the accounts get overwhelmed easily. So once I can e-mail, you'll have to keep emptying your account until you've got them all (we have 5 back issues so far).
Lupin's daughter, from what Petunia said in SS/PS, I've always wondered if they eloped (Petunia said "they left and got married."). Not real evidence, of course, but a curiosity. I doubt she would have attended her sister's wedding in any case, and you might be right about the funeral, although we don't actually know when or how their parents died. They could have died years before. I gather we may find out in HBP.
Anyway, I believe that, according to the Lexicon timeline, James and Lily might have been married for a couple of years before they had Harry.
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librarian314 - Sep 3, 2004 9:52 am (#339 of 565) Reply
Hey all!
Jen, that is a good point about “several.” I double checked what several meant and was surprised that dictionary.com defines it thusly: Being of a number more than two or three but not many. I had always thought several and many were close synonyms.
If The Evans were killed about the time Lily left Hogwarts, "several" years could have passed before Petunia saw the younger Potters again.
*michelle the librarian** (It's amazing how many everyday words you don't really know the meaning of until you look them up. As a cataloguer I do this all the time to understand the nuances!)
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Magical Llama - Sep 4, 2004 6:12 am (#340 of 565) Reply
Edited Sep 4, 2004 7:42 am
I have my doubts about Nevile Longbottom being Harry's twin.
I believe that Voldemort is a more likely candidate for the following reasons:
1) Voldemort and Harry share the same wand core. I believe this symbolizes that Harry and Voldemort are literally birds of a feather (twins). Harry and Voldemort have BROTHER wands.
2) Doby gives Harry a PAIR of socks. These socks symbolize twins with different personalities ... One green (Voldemort), One red (Harry).
3) Harry and Voldemort seem to be SPIRITUAL Siamese twins - joined together by the curse. If one twin dies, they both die. This is the reason why Dumbledore does NOT attempt to kill Voldemort. Voldemort's death would have resulted in Harry's death as well.
The prophecy states: " ..either must die at the hand of the other, for neither can live while the other survives...."
This means that Harry cannot truly live while Voldemort is alive, unless he personally kills his Siamese twin, and becomes one.
Note: Lily's sacrifice saved Harry once. Voldemort's steps to prevent death saved him from the rebound.
4) "In essence Divided".
5) Voldemort and Harry share a common past history. They are both orphans and are probably the heirs of their respective houses. Tom Riddle mentions a few more similarities in CoS. Harry resembles Tom Riddle (twins would resemble each other).
Further evidence of a past SPIRITUAL connection:
...And while Harry was sure he had never heard the name T. M. Riddle before, it still seemed to mean something to him, almost as though Riddle was a friend he'd had when he was very small, and had half-forgotten....
--
I am aware of JKR's statement about Harry's relationship. I believe this Rumor is more revealing then dismissive. JRK is incredibly deceptive with her word usage and she does not outright say, "Voldemort is in NO way related to Harry." In fact, JKR, makes a clarification at the end of her answer.
JKRowling.com, 2004 (Rumors section):
“R: Voldemort is Harry’s real father/grandfather/close relative of some description.
A: No, no, no, no, no. You lot have been watching too much Star Wars. James is DEFINITLEY Harry’s father. Doesn't’ everybody Harry meets say ‘you look just like your father’? And hasn’t Dumbledore already told Harry that Voldemort is the last surviving descendent of Salazar Slytherin? Just to clarify - this means that Harry is NOT a descendent of Salazar Slytherin.”
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Phoenix song - Sep 4, 2004 6:22 am (#341 of 565) Reply
Magical Llama: You've made some excellent points. I'm not sure about how the "spiritual twin" thing would work, but I can see it working that way. However, I would think that if Dumbledore told Harry that Voldemort was the last surviving descendent of SS that it was true. JKR has said in an interview on the second disk of the first movie that the information given by DD and Hermione is reliable.
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definitelyCuivienen - Sep 4, 2004 6:51 am (#342 of 565) Reply
Magical Llama -- she begins the statement by saying no five times. I think this should assure us that Harry and Voldemort are not at all related.
You also have provided no evidence pointing to Neville not being Harry's twin, just evidence that points to Harry and Voldemort being connected (btw, none of your evidence indicates twinhood, just a strong connection).
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Magical Llama - Sep 4, 2004 7:00 am (#343 of 565) Reply
Edited Sep 4, 2004 8:23 am
Her "no" refers to the Darth Vader Theory. She clarifies what her answer means at the end.
I do not see any clear links that Neville is Harry's twin. Neville is not an orphan. The idea that James would transform Neville into the image of the dead, Longbottoms son, is not compelling evidence. The links between Voldemort and Harry are much more obvious.
Phoenix song: I am not suggesting that Voldemort and Harry are related by blood ... more by spirit.
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Round Pink Spider - Sep 4, 2004 7:03 am (#344 of 565) Reply
Magical Llama, I'll be happy to add you to the mailing list. I'll also be happy to pick up the "twin" gauntlet and address your suggestion. I'm about to take part in our HP Club monthly meeting, but I wanted to post to let you know I see your comments and will get back to you as soon as I can!
The twin issue has to do with the Snape's riddle of the bottles. In the last issue of our newsletter, I did a VERY LONG analysis of symbolic scenes, and I spent several pages on Snape's riddle. Later today or tomorrow, I'll summarize that for you (or possibly post it in its entirety). But you'll understand my "answers" to the riddle much better when you read the most recent newsletter.
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Aurora Gubbins - Sep 4, 2004 2:44 pm (#345 of 565) Reply
Something has just sprung out of the window on JKR's website: FAQ section; The comment JKR puts about the differences between pure-blood, half-blood and Muggle-born. She states that Harry would be considered by the likes of the Malfoys as "'half' wizard, because of his mother's grandparents". In the light of the comment about Petunia not being a Squib, but... (Edinburgh Book Festival) does anyone have any theories about the implications of her statement? I know this has huge importance, but I don't know what it is!!!
I just sat and sketched it out and I think I may have worked something out... Lily and Petunia are both magical. Lily and Petunia's parents are both magical. Of their Grandparents, one couple are magical and the other couple are not, or in other words one of the Evans girls' parents is a magical child born of Muggle parents. (It was Petunia who either couldn't or wouldn't be involved in the magical world, for whatever reason)
WOW, that took some working out!! I need to copy this and post it on some other threads...
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Solitaire - Sep 4, 2004 6:44 pm (#346 of 565) Reply
Edited Sep 4, 2004 7:45 pm
Aurora: one of the Evans girls' parents is a magical child born of Muggle parents
Question: If Lily is a muggle-born witch, how can one of her parents be magical?
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Siriusly - Sep 4, 2004 7:26 pm (#347 of 565) Reply
Edited Sep 4, 2004 8:28 pm
She is not a muggle-born witch. She is a witch who had a grandparent that was a muggle. Latest definition of JK's answer at Book Fest (I believe that's where it was). Apparently the pure blood fanatics call you muggle born even if it was one of your grandparents or great-grandparents. Something was said earlier you a pureblood if you can go back 9 generations without us muggles rising in your family.
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definitelyCuivienen - Sep 4, 2004 7:35 pm (#348 of 565) Reply
No, she said they call you half-blood if you have a Muggle grandparent, not muggleborn. Thus, Harry's children (assuming his wife is pureblood) would be considered pureblood, even though Harry, who has two Muggle grandparents, is considered half-blood.
If it was the way you say, Siriusly, then Harry would be muggleborn.
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Solitaire - Sep 4, 2004 8:07 pm (#349 of 565) Reply
Edited Sep 4, 2004 9:08 pm
So both of the Evanses were not Muggles, as it says in the Lexicon? I'm confused ... Does this mean one of Lily's parents was a Squib and the other was a Muggle? Can you please give me the source for this information? Thanks.
Solitaire
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Aurora Gubbins - Sep 5, 2004 2:34 am (#350 of 565) Reply
Solitaire, I just checked JKR website and JKR says (see transcript of EBF) that Petunia is not a squib, she is a muggle. If you go to FAQ on her website and go to the 'About the Books' section, read the question "Why are some people in the wizarding world (e.g., Harry) called 'half-blood' even though both their parents were magical?"
In the first paragraph of her reply she says that Harry is considered 'half' wizard because of his mother's grandparents, or, put another way, Harry's great grandparents. Further down she comments on the bizarre attitude of the Nazis and something she saw in Washington's Holocaust museum about the Nazi belief that "A single Jewish grandparent 'polluted' the blood"
JKR makes the comparison between the Nazis and the Death Eaters and the way they view their pure blood status, along with their lack of acceptance of Muggles and the Muggle World. Petunia is clearly the other side of the coin, taking her acceptance and acknowledgement of her 'perfect' muggle world being the only way, completely denying the magical side of their Universe.
As for the Lexicon, wonderful as it is, only works on the facts we all have, and assumptions have to be made based on the knowledge imparted to date. Until POA I think we all believed Petunia was just a Muggle, but she's obviously so much more.
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Solitaire - Sep 5, 2004 7:21 am (#351 of 565) Reply
Aurora, I was just questioning the suggestion that one of Lily's parents was magical, since we are clearly told that Lily is a Muggle-born witch (like Hermione). If Lily was Muggle-born, then Lily's parents were Muggles.
Whether or not Petunia is magical was beside that particular point. Petunia may indeed be a witch in denial ... or a witch stripped of her powers ... or a just a Muggle with a long neck and a long nose that she sticks into everyone else's business.
Perhaps she is a Muggle who once attempted to perform a magic spell with Lily's things and accidentally did something to herself or Dudley--his worst memory, perhaps?--causing the MoM to show up at her doorstep with a couple of Dementors to warn her to cut it out. Or maybe Dudley is magic and Petunia cut a deal with Dumbledore and the MoM to keep him in the dark about this--in exchange for taking in Harry. If this is indeed the case, given Dudley's tantrums, I look for some VERY interesting unintentional magic from Dudley in the coming books! The look on Uncle Vernon's face would be priceless!
It's all speculation at this point, but it gives us something to dream about while waiting Impatiently for book 6!
Solitaire
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Madame Librarian - Sep 5, 2004 7:42 am (#352 of 565) Reply
Thus, Harry's children (assuming his wife is pureblood) would be considered pureblood, even though Harry, who has two Muggle grandparents, is considered half-blood. posted by Cuivienen above.
I don't think so. If Harry (half-blood) married Ginny (pure-blood) their children would be considered half-blood for many generations. Speculation put it at for nine generations based on something one of the students (who?) said, assuming all the Harry-Ginny offspring don't themselves marry Muggles or half-bloods. Half-blood is an all-encompassing term to cover the children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren, and so on of mixed marriages of any sort. The only exception is an especially nasty term--mudblood--for someone like Hermione or Lily, first generation witches, who supposedly have no magical forebears at all, although these days we're not 110% sure about those Evanses.
You know, it's really amazing that every few months or so, we get all in a tangle about these differences and how the terms are used. Adding to the snarl, in this case, is a slip by JKR or an intentional clue disguised as a misstatement by her. Frustrating? Naaah, we're tough here on the Forum. We can take it. Keeps us on our toes. Improves our analytical skills and our keyboarding. (**frantically flees to private closet in which to scream "arrrggghhh," and bang head against door jamb)
Ciao. Barb
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Choices - Sep 5, 2004 9:04 am (#353 of 565) Reply
Careful Barb.....you could end up with a jagged scar on your forehead that everyone will stare at for the rest of your days. LOL
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Round Pink Spider - Sep 5, 2004 11:13 am (#354 of 565) Reply
Edited Sep 5, 2004 12:14 pm
I think that JKR was trying to say that if a witch or wizard had even one Muggle great-grandparent, that would be enough to make that person a half-blood (in the Death Eaters' eyes). I don't think she was trying to imply anything one way or another about Lily's parents; she's done that by labeling Lily "muggle-born." By JKR's statement, I believe that means that, if Harry married a pure-blood, his children would still be considered half-bloods, because they would have two muggle great-grandparents. But if his children married pure-bloods, I guess Harry's grandchildren would be considered pure-blood.
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Madame Librarian - Sep 5, 2004 12:46 pm (#355 of 565) Reply
RPS, I still think Harry's grandchildren would be considered half-bloods. I believe the stigma of half-blood (at least according to racist pure-bloods and DEs) is many generations long. As I said, the term is an umbrella term to exclude any who have muggles or half-bloods in their direct line of forebears.
It is possible that once your family is quite entrenched in Wizarding society, half-blood grandparents and great grandparents (and back) don't mean a fig to the tolerant members of the society like the Weasleys, so it becomes a non-issue as Ron implied in his remark about just about every Wizard family having intermarried with Muggles at some point or another (not a direct quote).
Ciao. Barb
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Round Pink Spider - Sep 5, 2004 2:19 pm (#356 of 565) Reply
I drew my line where I did because of JKR's statement. By saying it was "Lily's grandparents," she indicated that it's a three-generation thing. If she'd meant to be nonspecific, she could have said it was "Lily's family" or "Lily's ancestors." So I assume she meant it literally.
I agree with you, though, that most members of Wizarding society probably wouldn't care much.
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Magical Llama - Sep 5, 2004 8:37 pm (#357 of 565) Reply
Edited Sep 5, 2004 10:00 pm
Back to my theory about Voldemort being Harry's twin:
Harry mislabels the planet Venus, as Mars, during his practical exam for astrology. We know that Mars is associated with Voldemort (cursed forest scene in SS/PS). My guess is Venus is associated with Harry, because it is the planet of love. Why would Harry mislabel these planets? What about the Brother wand?
What about the "In Essence Divided" scene with two snakes? (I am not suggesting Harry is the heir of Slytherin).
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Siriusly - Sep 6, 2004 2:28 am (#358 of 565) Reply
Neville is Harry's other half. The salt of his spirit. Together they are One.
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Magical Llama - Sep 6, 2004 4:06 am (#359 of 565) Reply
Edited Sep 6, 2004 5:35 am
I don't see how Neville is Harry's other half. Please elaborate.
Please be active in this discussion. I feel like I am being blown off.
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Siriusly - Sep 6, 2004 8:13 am (#360 of 565) Reply
Dear LLama:
Did not mean to offend. Please accept my apologies.
My statement is based on an alchemy document I found. I believe it is the 12 Uses of Dragon's Blood.
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Round Pink Spider - Sep 6, 2004 9:29 am (#361 of 565) Reply
Edited Sep 6, 2004 10:31 am
Magical Llama, I wanted to address your comment about Neville and Voldemort properly, which as I said I couldn’t do yesterday because of the meeting. This will be a very long response, because I’m going to bring forward all the “evidence” I’ve found since the initial posting of this thread. But I want to start by saying that I’m presenting this information for completeness and in the spirit of sharing information with the Forum rather than with the thought of “convincing” anyone! The question of Harry’s “twin” will only be settled by JKR (and I’m hoping it will be settled in HBP!), so I am perfectly content to “agree to disagree” with those who disagree with me.
First, back to ancient history…just to review, these were the bits of evidence I originally supplied at the beginning of this thread:
- Fudge’s joke: “Oho! …Willy Widdershins was lying, was he? Or was it Potter’s identical twin in the Hog’s Head that day? Or is there the usual simple explanation involving a reversal of time, a dead man coming back to life, and a couple of invisible dementors?” (OotP, p. 614.)
- The old Celtic belief that Holly and Oak are twin kings, locked in a cyclic battle in which Holly rules from the summer solstice to the winter solstice, and Oak from the winter solstice to the summer solstice (“At the solstice will come a new…”). Holly reaches its weakest point right before the summer solstice. Harry’s life-threatening crisis always comes right around the summer solstice, after which he begins to recover. If Harry has a twin, the twin should have an oak wand.
- The symbolic scene in GoF on p. 393, in which Ron was building a card castle out of Exploding Snap cards. He put the last two cards on top. Then the castle blew up, singeing Ron’s eyebrows. After Fred and George teased him, Ron “felt [his forehead to see] how much damage had been done”.
- GoF, p. 201, when Professor Trelawney required her class to chart the positions of the planets at the moment of their birth, and Harry ended up with two Neptunes on his chart. In astrology, Neptune represents secrets, but it’s also associated with orphans. That could imply that two (future) orphans with secrets were born at that moment.
We’ve found additional clues about Harry’s “twin” since then, but first I want to address your suggestion that Voldemort is Harry’s “spiritual twin.”
There is actually a lot of “doubling” in HP. It’s one of the main themes of the book. In earlier posts, I brought up the play Macbeth, from which “the Weird Sisters” and “Double, double, toil and trouble” came, and I mentioned that doubles are very important in that play. In Harry Potter, we’ve seen several sets of birth twins, people who are spiritually alike, and people who are opposites.
I agree with you (as I said in an earlier post) that Voldemort’s and Harry’s “life forces” are probably joined together. And in each book, Harry’s mental connection with Voldemort has grown stronger. I believe the two of them are being drawn toward a point of identity, a point at which they would mentally become one person. At the same time, they are such polar opposites that joining would probably destroy both of them. So I do actually agree with you that Harry and Voldemort are “doubles!” However, I would probably call them “mirror images” rather that “spiritual” or “symbolic” twins. In fact, they are perhaps closer to being one entity “in essence divided” than two individuals sharing something in common.
I am actually not trying to split hairs! The word “twin” came up on this thread both because of Fudge’s joke and Snape’s riddle. If the posting on this thread lags again, I may bring my analysis of Snape’s riddle in here, but basically, Voldemort doesn’t really fit either Fudge’s joke or the symbolic meaning of Snape’s riddle. I may bring my analysis of Snape’s riddle in here if the posting lags again, but the point is that I’m trying to use the word “twin” the way I think JKR used it, rather than in a vague “similarity” sense.
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Round Pink Spider - Sep 6, 2004 9:30 am (#362 of 565) Reply
Edited Sep 6, 2004 10:32 am
Now, the other “evidence” for Neville as Harry’s actual, biological twin:
The Sock Connection:
I’m very impressed that you brought up Dobby’s socks, Magical Llama, because you recognized it for what it was – a hint about the twins. But I believe you misinterpreted it because you missed some other information. The red sock didn’t represent Harry, it represented Neville:
- Back in SS/PS, Ron said, concerning Hagrid telling anyone how to get past Fluffy, that “Neville will play Quidditch for England before Hagrid lets Dumbledore down.” Notice that Hagrid did reveal how to get past Fluffy to the disguised Quirrel.
- In GoF, p. 231, under the Imperious Curse “Neville performed a series of quite astonishing gymnastics he would certainly not have been capable of in his normal state.” (We believe Neville may have been made clumsy by repeated memory charms, which may be broken in HBP.)
- In PoA, p. 302, Harry dreamed that he had overslept the Quidditch Final, and Wood was yelling at him, “Where were you? We had to use Neville instead!” We’re speculating that Neville may actually be playing Quidditch in book 7.
It was the green sock that represented Harry. Notice it was the green sock that had the pattern of Snitches. There has been some debate recently about whether JKR ever actually said that someone would be switching houses; no one can seem to find the reference, including me. But if anyone does switch houses, it will be Harry switching to Slytherin. However, whether Harry actually switches houses, comes under Voldemort’s control, or is simply associated with Slytherin because of his mental connection with Voldemort, I’ve found several references to Harry in connection to Slytherin (I am aware that Harry is not related to Salazar Slytherin):
- Harry’s dream on p. 130 of SS/PS, in which Quirrel’s turban was telling him to transfer to Slytherin house “because it was his destiny.”
- Although other people have dressed in green off and on, every sweater Molly Weasley has made for Harry has been green (she bought him bottle-green dress robes too).
- Dobby’s Christmas gift for Harry was a picture of himself looking like “a gibbon with two black eyes” (OotP, p. 502). Looking monkeyish has been associated with Slytherins since CoS (the face of the statue of Salazar Slytherin looked “ancient and monkeyish”, CoS p. 307; Goyle doing lines “I… must… not…look… look… like… a… baboon’s… backside…”, OotP p. 189).
- Draco made that little joke calling Harry and Ron “Potty and the Weasel.” I think he’s called them that more than once, but the first time was PoA on p. 80. That’s a reference to the children’s song, “All around the cobbler’s bench the monkey chased the weasel”.
- More socks: In that same scene, Harry was embarrassed that he didn’t have a present for Dobby. He got out the pair of mustard yellow socks that the Dursleys had given him and gave them to Dobby. (In JKR’s symbolic language, yellow means “mortal danger”, and socks are “safety”. So the Dursleys had given Harry “safety from mortal danger.”) Dobby said they’d made a mistake at the shop and given Harry two the same (they were identical twins). Ron gave Dobby a pair of violet socks (purple symbolizes “authority”) and told Dobby he could mix them up properly. So the authorities are properly mixed up because the pair no longer look the same.
JKR’s Website Clues:
Rabbits -- Back on post #101 on this thread, I posted some information about the symbolic meaning of “rabbits.” From the usage, we believe that JKR only uses rabbits to refer to someone or something with a direct connection to Godric Gryffindor. (That means that being a member of Gryffindor house at Hogwarts isn't enough.) We have only seen rabbit references near Harry, the Weasleys, and things personally connected to Godric Gryffindor. This is a repost of that information:
Here are some rabbit references (there are more than this, believe it or not!):
1) SS, p. 117, When Harry saw the Sorting Hat (Gryffindor's), he wondered if maybe they had to "try and get a rabbit out of it."
2) The entrance to the Gryffindor common room is a hole in the wall.
3) The Weasley's home is called the Burrow (as I said in the theory, I think the Weasleys are another branch of the Gryffindor line), and the Weasleys have "more children than they can afford" (rabbits multiply).
4) PoA, p. 195, the tunnel between Hogwarts and Honeyduke's was "more like the burrow of a giant rabbit than anything else" (and Harry was passing through it -- visual clue)
5) GoF, p. 27, Harry wasn't going to settle for what Uncle Vernon called "rabbit food."
6) GoF, p. 70, On the way up Stoathead Hill (stoats are like weasels, and they hunt rabbits), Harry and the Weasleys kept stumbling in hidden rabbit holes.
7) At the World Cup, Harry saw three African (as in Egyptian) wizards roasting a rabbit over a bright purple fire (Harry was getting "roasted" by the authorities the entire following year!).
8 ) In the PoA movie, as the three friends were walking down the steep hill to Hagrid's hut for the Hippogriff class, a cute ickle bunny appeared in the foreground directly in front of Harry.
I haven't been able to chase down the first reference yet, but Neville wears bunny slippers. In the movie version of SS, in fact, he was wearing bunny slippers and bunny pajamas. And that didn't come from Hollywood! Apparently it came from JKR! If you search her website, one of the "rewards" was her personal "ancient" drawing of Harry, Ron, Hermione, Neville, and Dean (whom she later took out of the scene) for the chapter "The Midnight Duel" in SS. And she drew Neville in bunny pajamas! None of the others was wearing anything unusual, but even in her early stages of writing, she was associating Neville with rabbits! (I believe this may be the reason she included this picture on her website. I think the "rewards" are additional clues.)
In addition, when Neville was sorted into Gryffindor, he ran off wearing Godric Gryffindor's hat as if it were his.
The Identical Pages -- Back at the end of July, I noticed that JKR had two identical sheets of paper with Gryffindor, a circle with HB (half-blood), a line connecting the two, and the Gryffindor lines of the Sorting Hat’s first song from SS/PS on her bulletin board. They could be seen before all the other pieces of paper came down. Sarah Jones did a screen capture that can still be seen here: noteboard One of the sheets of paper has since been replaced, although the other is still present.
That’s pretty much everything we have so far, Magical Llama. As I said, it’s fine with me if you agree to disagree with me. But I’ll add you to the newsletter list, and I suggest you read Issue #4 and the symbolic analysis.
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popkin - Sep 6, 2004 1:55 pm (#363 of 565) Reply
Edited by Sep 6, 2004 3:03 pm
Round Pink Spider, I love your theory, but there are a couple of mistakes (bound to happen when you're holding so many facts in your head at the same time). Neville's pajamas in SS are covered with teddy bears, not bunnies. Also, Mrs. Weasley gives Harry a scarlet sweater with a Gryffindor lion on it in POA.
The symbolic scene in GoF on p. 393, in which Ron was building a card castle out of Exploding Snap cards. He put the last two cards on top. Then the castle blew up, singeing Ron’s eyebrows. After Fred and George teased him, Ron “felt [his forehead to see] how much damage had been done”.
I don't understand what symbolism you are seeing here (or, more specifically, how Ron is involved in it). Could you please explain?
Sorry, I don't have anything really constructive to add to your thoughtful post.
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Steve Newton - Sep 6, 2004 2:14 pm (#364 of 565) Reply
Popkin, I think that the Neville bunny pajamas is from the JKR web site. One of the rewards.
I, too, have trouble with the identical twin idea but there is definitely an important connection between Neville and Harry. At times they seem to be twinned and at times they seem to be mirror images. At least to me.
And I think that they are both marked. If you have two items you cannot just mark one. They will both be identifiable.
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Madame Librarian - Sep 6, 2004 2:24 pm (#365 of 565) Reply
The fact of Ron touching his forehead to see "how much damage was done" (GoF, p.393, US hardcover) might be yet another slight hint that Ron is marked, too, in someway, or jealous of the fact that Harry is special (evidenced by Harry's scar on the forehead). Does Ron wish for a "scar" like Harry's?
I am also thinking of the smudge on Ron's face in PS that JKR makes such a big deal about (chpt. 6). First Molly Weasely tries to wipe it off, but Ron ducks and pushes her hand away. Then on the train, Hermione's first comment to Ron directly is to tell him that he's got dirt on his face.
Wishful thinking to be like Harry? JKR's hinting that there's something we should watch about Ron, too? Red herrings altogether?
Ciao. Barb
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Round Pink Spider - Sep 7, 2004 4:29 am (#366 of 565) Reply
Thanks, Popkin! I appreciate the sweater correction. I was thinking at the time, "Shouldn't you check before you write that?" But I'd already spent something like 6 hours writing the thing, and I was getting mighty tired...SCARlet is, of course, Harry's special color! He SHOULD be wearing red and gold all the time, though...
Popkin, Steve is quite correct, the bunny pajamas are from JKR's website, and they are clearly bunnies (long ears). I haven't had time to review the DVD to see if the PJs in the movie had long ears or not. Have to get back to you on that...later today if I can.
The castle is a reference to the princely line of Gryffindor. I talked about the connections between Gryffindor and royalty back in the beginning of this thread. Ron is often the "agent of fate" in HP, in the sense that he acts as a seer. He makes jokes that come true, he plays chess games that symbolize action in the story, etc. The two cards laid on top of the castle at the same time would represent two descendents of the princely line, born at the same time. Then the castle blew up (Harry's house was destroyed), and Harry got his scar.
Madame Librarian, the "dirt" was actually on Ron's nose, which of course was highly meaningful. Actually, JKR initially described it as a "black mark on his nose", which in symbolic language is downright threatening!
As I mentioned earlier on the thread, noses symbolize curiosity (as per "Elephant's Child"). Why was it dirt? I don't know. Maybe this just represents his curiosity about Harry. Note that Harry saw Luna with "earth" on her nose in OotP. (Ha ha, the Moon had "Earth" on her nose...cute!)
Ron certainly wishes he could be like Harry. No, I don't think that's totally a red herring. And Ron definitely bears watching.
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Phoenix song - Sep 7, 2004 9:46 am (#367 of 565) Reply
RPS, I'm curious...do you see the dirt on Ron's nose as being a symbol that he will turn against Harry? I know that there are many who sense that he will betray him for wealth, power or fame. I've always denied that he could ever do that, (argument in the GoF aside) but you bringing up the descriptive term "black mark" has given me cause for concern. It's too close to "dark mark" for my tastes.
I still see Ron as a devoted friend, but I do fear that his insecurities could be a weak point for him. Maybe I should say that I feel that his need to stand out will prove to be a weakness. With the added prestige that he is now receiving from being a prefect and being on the Quidditch team, I hope that he can overcome this weakness and be impervious to temptation.
Just curious, though, what do you think will be Ron's status?
Barbie
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popkin - Sep 7, 2004 3:50 pm (#368 of 565) Reply
Ron is starting to come into his own. I don't think he'll be all that insecure in book six. He's doing well in quidditch, the twins won't be around to put him down, and he's a very talented guy. His minor insecurities will not lead him to betray his best friend, or to join the very people he's been fighting against for the past five years.
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Round Pink Spider - Sep 7, 2004 5:24 pm (#369 of 565) Reply
Phoenix Song and Popkin, actually, according to the symbolic stuff we've been looking at, Ron's probably going to be under the Imperious Curse, and be forced to attack Harry. Here are some of the references we found to that (these are summarized from my newsletters):
1) In GoF, p. 385-386, we see Harry and Ron playfully dueling with a couple of Fred and George’s fake wands. Harry’s has transformed into a rubber haddock, and Ron’s into a tin parrot. The head of Harry’s haddock fell silently to the floor, because the beak of Ron’s parrot had severed it.
Although this looks like a funny scene, I don’t think it is, mostly because of the head-severing thing. To me, this appears to be the first reference to Ron being under the Imperious Curse (he’s a "tin parrot", that is, he’s being artificially forced to “parrot” what he’s been told). Ron appears to be giving away one of Harry’s “fish stories,” probably getting Harry into trouble.
2) In GoF, p. 411, Ron used a Severing Charm at the neckline and cuffs of his dress robes to rid them of lace (his head and hands were "cut off", that is, they were no longer under his control).
3) Also on p. 411, when Dean said he couldn’t understand how Harry and Ron got the two best-looking girls in the year, Ron said it was “animal magnetism,” an old term for hypnosis, somewhat similar to the Imperious Curse.
4) In GoF, back in p. 222, when Ron and Harry were making up their predictions, Ron suggested, “Why don’t you get stabbed in the back by someone you thought was a friend?” And then, in book 5, Moody kept shoving and poking Harry between the shoulder blades as they were on their way into St. Mungo’s (p.483-4).
Right before the Second Task, Harry has fallen into an exhausted sleep. Then he has the following dream, interrupted by Dobby:
The mermaid in the painting in the prefect’s bathroom was laughing. Harry was bobbing like a cork in bubbly water next to her rock, while she held his Firebolt over his head.
“Come and get it!” she giggled maliciously. “Come on, jump!”
“I can’t,” Harry panted, snatching at the Firebolt, and struggling not to sink. “Give it to me!”
But she just poked him painfully in the side with the end of the broomstick, laughing at him.
“That hurts – get off – ouch –”
“Harry Potter must wake up, sir!”
“Stop poking me –”
“Dobby must poke Harry Potter, sir, he must wake up!”
Harry opened his eyes. He was still in the library; the Invisibility Cloak had slipped off his head as he’d slept, and the side of his face was stuck to the pages of Where There’s a Wand, There’s a Way. He sat up, straightening his glasses, blinking in the bright daylight.
“Harry Potter needs to hurry!” squeaked Dobby. “The second task starts in ten minutes, and Harry Potter –”
From all the hints, it appears that Ron may stab Harry, either in the side or the back, while he’s distracted. Notice the Invisibility Cloak has slipped off his head; this is another subtle decapitation reference.
Does Dobby find Harry dying from blood loss? JKR cut him off in mid-sentence, but Dobby almost said that he had to wake Harry or Harry would be late (as in the late Harry Potter)!
When Harry runs down to the lake (in an effort to avoid being late), he arrives with “a stitch in his side that felt as though he had a knife between his ribs”.
5) In the PoA movie, Ron woke from a dream in which spiders were trying to force him to tap dance. This may be a reference to the spider that was forced to tap dance under the Imperious Curse, book 4, p. 213.)
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Phoenix song - Sep 7, 2004 8:30 pm (#370 of 565) Reply
RPS: Thank you for your informative post. I feel better thinking that the clues don't lead to Ron willingly betraying Harry. I hadn't thought about the Imperious Curse being used on Ron before. It seems like such an obvious thing that I should have the word "Duh!" tatooed on my forehead. (But only if I can also get a nice shaped lightning bolt as well.)
Could I possibly also get a copy of your newsletter? If it is as well written as your posts then I can't wait to read them!
Thank you!
Barbie
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popkin - Sep 7, 2004 10:13 pm (#371 of 565) Reply
Edited by Sep 7, 2004 11:14 pm
Ron is definitely more susceptible to mind control that Harry. Look at the effects of the Veela on him.
That thing about the invisibility cloak slipping off Harry's head being a subtle clue about beheading is chilling. I hope that's a red herring.
Does haddock have any symbolic significance? Could it be used to indicate that that particular clue is a red herring? Maybe the part about Ron being a tin parrot is the clue, but not the part about him beheading Harry (the haddock).
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Round Pink Spider - Sep 8, 2004 5:58 am (#372 of 565) Reply
Edited Sep 8, 2004 7:27 am
It's NOT a red herring, Popkin. Headless clues are VERY prevalent, all over HP. But rest easy (sort of) -- the many headless references do NOT seem to mean having one's head physically cut off (well, it's possible that somebody will lose their head, but I don't think it'll be Ron or Harry). Think about all the cut-off heads we've seen that are still talking! (Remember the head on the Knight Bus in the movie saying to Harry, "Watch your head..." Funny...not!) They are either references to mortal danger or to having your "head" under the control of someone else (Imperious Curse, potions, possession...).
No, that's not a pleasant thought, either! It appears Harry is going to be fighting off that kind of thing off and on over the next couple of books. But at least he's capable of fighting it...From what I'm working on right now (Quidditch), I think Ron will eventually fight it off, either in book 7 or at the end of HBP, but I can't tell which it is right now (that's what that bit about Ron as Keeper means, believe it or not...)
I interpreted that "haddock" to mean that Harry was telling a fib (a red herring) and Ron gave it away. But I don't know if that's a good interpretation. I don't know if fish have particular symbolic significance, beyond the fact that they swim in water. Right now I think water symbolically means either knowledge or truth (that's why there was a drought in Harry's part of England at the beginning of OotP!). So being a fish could mean being a full wizard (able to act in knowledge) or it could mean being a student, or it could mean something else entirely... Ron has had a few references to being a goldfish, which with his potentially being a seer, would be pretty appropriate.
In that light (being headless meaning mortal danger), that could mean that their little duel scene actually is a reference to Ron placing Harry in mortal danger. But we'll have to wait and see, I guess.
Phoenix Song, I'll send you our back newsletters. There are 5 so far, representing about 130 pages of text. With school starting, I'm having a little trouble getting the next one done. But hopefully I'll have it finished by the end of the third week of September.
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Phoenix song - Sep 8, 2004 8:23 am (#373 of 565) Reply
Thanks RPS! I'll look forward to reading them!
Barbie
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Steve Newton - Sep 8, 2004 8:44 am (#374 of 565) Reply
RPS, I just reread the duel scene, the very start of chapter 22 of GOF, and noticed that Harry and Ron were using fake wands. Perhaps they will fake a break between them.
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Round Pink Spider - Sep 8, 2004 9:32 am (#375 of 565) Reply
Perhaps, Steve. But I can't think of anything they could accomplish that way so early in HBP. Any suggestions? I guess I felt the fake wands were just a convenient excuse to give Harry and Ron something symbolic to fight with.
I've seen so many "stabbing in the back" references that it's getting kind of icky. In fact, I found another one that I didn't list here in the Quidditch games I'm dealing with for the next issue.
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Steve Newton - Sep 8, 2004 9:34 am (#376 of 565) Reply
RPS, I'm clutching at straws.
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Madame Librarian - Sep 8, 2004 10:00 am (#377 of 565) Reply
Did you mention the Quirrell situation with Voldemort right on the back of his head? Gaaa! How awful that is. A warning to watch your back in the most serious way, no? (How lazy can I get? Can't even scroll back to re-read RPS's nice post. Sheesh.)
I will google haddock when I have a bit of time.
Ciao. Barb
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Steve Newton - Sep 8, 2004 10:03 am (#378 of 565) Reply
Madame, Are you Googling the text of the books?
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Round Pink Spider - Sep 8, 2004 1:37 pm (#379 of 565) Reply
Edited Sep 8, 2004 2:38 pm
Steve, what has you clutching straws?
And Madame, I didn't mention Quirrel, although there probably is some significance (that escapes me) in having Voldemort on the back of his head. Generally what we see ON the head in HP symbolizes what's IN the head, so maybe that's it. The references to which I'm referring are ones connected to Harry getting stabbed in the back or side in HBP. Most of these (if not all) have been in either GoF or OotP.
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Steve Newton - Sep 8, 2004 5:41 pm (#380 of 565) Reply
I don't want Ron to stab Harry in the back. He's my favorite character.
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Round Pink Spider - Sep 9, 2004 6:20 am (#381 of 565) Reply
I love Ron, too. I was quite shocked. I wasn't expecting something as physical as a stabbing. I was expecting Harry to end up in the hospital through lies and treachery on the part of the Ministry. And hey, I could still be wrong, right? At least it doesn't look like Ron's going to betray Harry on purpose, that's something!
I'm grasping at straws too, aren't I?
Steve, I'm sending you an e-mail, I need some special help in order to get my article on Quidditch done.
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Madame Librarian - Sep 9, 2004 2:14 pm (#382 of 565) Reply
Edited Sep 9, 2004 3:16 pm
Madame, Are you Googling the text of the books? (Steve Newton)
Steve, I don't understand your question. If you are asking whether I use Google to look up specific quotes or scenes in the books, no, I don't think that miraculous feature is available in Google yet. It would be lovely though, wouldn't it? I'd love it if each book came with an index so we could just flip to the back, look up the name or term and be directed to the pertinent pages. That'd be awesome for Forum people.
When I need a reference, I just flip through the books and hope my memory as to where I first read something is good. Occasionally the Lex helps. And, of course, the other people here are extremely helpful and knowledgeable.
Anyway, if that's not what you meant, please elaborate.
BTW--I didn't find much on "haddock" other than the basic definitions of what kind of fish it is, etc. It is often called finnan haddie, which sounds like it could be a name, but I don't think we'll suddenly have a character with the name Finnan or Haddock or Haddie pop up in book 6 or 7. If JKR does do that, everybody remember, you read it here first.
The only remotely interesting thing I found on haddock was in a dream diary dictionary that expanded it to fish in general. Here's the only comment that had any bearing: Dead fish either in their natural habitat or in a market are an omen of disappointment or discouragement. Here's the site if you want to read what fish in your dreams mean--
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Ciao. Barb
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Steve Newton - Sep 9, 2004 4:44 pm (#383 of 565) Reply
Madame Librarian, I think I misunderstood what you were saying.
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Acceber - Sep 10, 2004 5:04 pm (#384 of 565) Reply
Barb-Finnan kind of sounds like Finnigan... But only kind of. I'm really trying every possible thing. Don't blame me. I got it from you lot .
RPS, how's that newsletter going? No pressure, just curiosity from an adoring fan.
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Round Pink Spider - Sep 11, 2004 12:44 pm (#385 of 565) Reply
Now, now, Acceber, don't start "fishing" like that... :-D
I'm writing some of it this afternoon. And I work better under pressure anyway!
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Julie Aronson - Sep 22, 2004 2:14 pm (#386 of 565) Reply
Edited Sep 22, 2004 3:15 pm
I originally posted this idea on the Alchemy thread, but it really fits better here:
In Geoffrey of Monmouth's version of the Arthurian legend, Arthur's spear was called "Ron." I would like to think that this means Ron will come to someone's aid, not stab them in the back.
Julie
RPS:
Can I get your newsletter, too? My e-mail is posted.
Thanks!!!!
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Round Pink Spider - Sep 22, 2004 7:53 pm (#387 of 565) Reply
Edited Sep 22, 2004 9:09 pm
I'll be happy to send you my newsletters, Julie. As for the helping and the backstabbing, well, you can judge for yourself after you read the newsletters.
By the way, I hope you're not overwhelmed by the volume of reading material in your account now!
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Solitaire - Sep 22, 2004 10:01 pm (#388 of 565) Reply
RPS, Ron did kind of "lose his head" in the DoM when he was attacked by the brains. He certainly wasn't much good to Harry there, was he?
Neville kind of literally "dropped the ball" when the prophecy fell out of his pocket and smashed. On page 805 of OotP (US ed.), Neville's "legs continued to flounder." Okay, so I'm reaching.
Solitaire
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Round Pink Spider - Sep 23, 2004 5:32 am (#389 of 565) Reply
No, I don't think so! JKR loves word play. I'm almost finished with this month's newsletter, which is mostly about Quidditch, and one of the running gags in several of the morning games (it's not really all that funny, when you think about it) is that someone, usually Harry, almost has toast for breakfast. You know what they say, you are what you eat...at least they weren't offering him nuts with the toast, as they did in the PoA movie!
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Todd Watts - Sep 24, 2004 10:46 am (#390 of 565) Reply
R.P.S. Could you send me your newsletter?
I have enjoyed reading your theories. I have some similar theories, but have been too scared to state them.
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Round Pink Spider - Sep 24, 2004 1:34 pm (#391 of 565) Reply
Oh, don't be scared, Todd. If you want, you can post them here. I really don't bite. I don't even growl!
And by the way, if I'm like everyone else, people do read that introduction, when seeing someone whom they don't know!
I'll be sending you the back newsletters in addition to the most recent one (just came out yesterday night). Don't get too overwhelmed by the quantity of reading material...
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Round Pink Spider - Sep 28, 2004 11:18 am (#392 of 565) Reply
Edited Sep 28, 2004 12:21 pm
It's been a while since we've had a literary topic, which is really what this thread is all about. One of the biggest areas for literary exploration (and good laughs) in HP is actually Alice in Wonderland and Through the Looking Glass, by Lewis Carroll. I'm going to be doing this as a topic in my newsletter for the holiday issue, so I haven't gone very far with it, but it looks like a goldmine!
A Mad Tea Party, which is Chapter 7 in Alice, is an example. Harry is Alice throughout. Ron's already been connected with rabbits (his family lives in the Burrow), and he was born in March, so that makes him the March Hare. Hermione's been knitting hats to free the house-elves, so that makes her the Mad Hatter. And one of the first things the Mad Hatter told Alice is "Your hair wants cutting."
Albus (the white...rabbit?) Dumbledore pulled out his watch at the beginning of SS/PS and remarked that Hagrid was late. The Duchess' baby looked remarkably like a pig, just like Dudley. (And it turned into a pig later -- just think what that could imply!) And then there's the Queen of Hearts, shouting "Off with her head!" (Just think of all the decapitation references.)
I encourage you to dig in, and have some laughs! There's an online copy of both books right here.
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Elanor - Sep 28, 2004 11:59 pm (#393 of 565) Reply
Very interesting similarities RPS! I am ashamed to say that I only saw the movie and never read the book, but I think I remember potions (or was it just a mushroom?) in the movies: one to make you bigger and one to make you smaller and I was thinking to our beloved potion's master and the similar potions he teaches at Hogwarts. But I think I should read the book before talking more about it!
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Round Pink Spider - Sep 29, 2004 2:46 am (#394 of 565) Reply
Edited Sep 29, 2004 3:50 am
You're right, Elanor, Snape did teach a Swelling Solution (as I recall, they lobbed a firework in it in second year as a distraction so that Hermione could steal potion ingredients for the Polyjuice Potion), and they've done a Shrinking Solution also.
Actually, in the book, Alice was constantly eating and drinking things that made her shrink and grow. You would think after a while she would have learned to stay away from that stuff!
Ooo, I just remembered -- at one point, when she ate something that made her grow ridiculously tall, a bird in the woods accused her of being a serpent, and intending to steal her eggs! (That was in the movie, too.)
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Jessalynn Quirky - Sep 29, 2004 1:31 pm (#395 of 565) Reply
Darn. My mother doesn't like Alice in Wonderland, so I have only seen the movie once when I was five and have never read the book.
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Round Pink Spider - Sep 29, 2004 1:34 pm (#396 of 565) Reply
Well, Quirky, now's your chance. There's a link to a site with an online copy of the book on post #392 above. You don't have to read that closely to start finding things!
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Jessalynn Quirky - Sep 29, 2004 1:37 pm (#397 of 565) Reply
Yay! * does a happy dance *
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CrazyMom - Oct 1, 2004 5:40 pm (#398 of 565) Reply
Hello There! I'm kind of new here, but am very excited about all of the wonderful things I've read. At this moment, I love this theory! I think that it gives you a lot to think about. I'm wondering though, has JKR ever told us that Harry and Voldemort are not related? Maybe you guys have discussed the possibility that the Riddles and the Evans could be related? It would explain why Lily's sacrifice, that protected Harry, caused Volde's spell to backfire. I mean if he tried to curse his own blood, it wouldn't have worked. It would also mean, now that Volde has used Harry's blood to come back to life, he might have negated that blood protection for himself. It might too explain Aunt Petunia's agreement to take in Harry as protection for Dudley, especially if DD put on his ancient magic blood protection, (that Voldemort has always despised). Could the half-blood prince be Volde's Dad? I wouldn't put it past Voldemort to underestimate his muggle geneological connection as being his undoing. He likes to conveniently forget that part of family history. Harry's family history may not be relevant on his Dad's side, but on his Mom's. Maybe Lily knew that her family tree included the Riddles and she placed her blood charm on Harry to seal her protection. She was a very clever witch. If Harry has Gryffindor blood also ,Godric's, Arthur's, etc...it would give him a definate advantage over Volde. What do you think?
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Round Pink Spider - Oct 2, 2004 3:06 am (#399 of 565) Reply
Edited Oct 2, 2004 4:11 am
Sorry! JKR has, in fact, specifically said that Harry and Voldie are NOT related. She put it on her official website. I had been speculating about that myself until she made that clear. Right now, a lot of people (including me) do think that Harry is a descendent of Godric Gryffindor. She has indicated that Lily is Muggle-born (not that that excludes the possibility of wizard ancestors!), so it seems likely that the wizarding descent is on his father's side at this point.
Welcome to the Forum, CrazyMom (I only started last June), and sorry about all your hurricane trouble (I read your intro)! Enjoy yourself!
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Loony Loopy Larissa - Oct 2, 2004 7:43 am (#400 of 565) Reply
CrazyMom, perhaps the Magical Maintenance crew are looking for a pay raise again (referring, of course, to your intro)!
Lady Arabella- Prefect
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CrazyMom - Oct 3, 2004 11:44 am (#401 of 565) Reply
Okay, thanks you guys for clearing up the Riddle/Evans connection. I still really love this Harry/Arthur theory. What I also find interesting, and maybe you've mentioned it already, is that Harry escapes Voldemort and death, with a Grail/Goblet. It gives him a chance at life. Does this theory also make Malfoy, the golden-haired boy, a farfetched version of Mordred? This is so cool, the possibilities are endless.
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Round Pink Spider - Oct 4, 2004 6:57 am (#402 of 565) Reply
Edited Oct 4, 2004 8:26 am
One of the things we discussed in the past on this thread is that JKR has used a number of different "keys" to shape her stories. She uses these keys as a sort of "shorthand" to imply things about her stories. Arthurian legend is actually just one of many keys. They're discussing another over on the "Alchemy" thread (that's a very complicated discussion, but they're finding a lot of good details). We've also discussed a couple of other, smaller literary keys on this thread, such as Macbeth and "The Elephant's Child". Other keys I'm aware of include some of Edgar Allen Poe, Alice in Wonderland and Through the Looking-Glass, a number of children's fairy tales, and "The Wasteland" by T. S. Eliot.
The important thing to understand about all these keys is that JKR never uses all the details from any one source for her books. She uses the details that are useful to her, then ignores the rest. So although the possibilities with Arthurian legend are endless, the actual references aren't.
As far as we can tell, JKR hasn't included a Mordred-figure. Mordred was related to Arthur (usually he was depicted as an illegitimate son, but sometimes a nephew). I really thought she was going to turn her one-line reference to a "Mark Evans" (mentioned at the beginning of OotP) into her Mordred, since he shared Lily's maiden name; but she has admitted on her website that Mark Evans was just a name, and he won't be appearing as a character in her books. We have, however, noted cheerfully that Ginny's full name is Ginevra. Rather remarkably close to Guinevere, wouldn't you say? :-D
Also, from the research I've done for my newsletters, I do believe that the Grail-references may be a very important continuing theme, especially in book 7.
If you find all this interesting, you may want to read through the back posts on this thread. We've had a lot of interesting discussions about the different keys to Harry Potter since this thread started. The discussion about the original posts mostly finished around post #100. If you want to skip that part, you can do a search for "Sarahbud" and select post #101. We've been mostly discussing other topics since then.
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CrazyMom - Oct 4, 2004 2:17 pm (#403 of 565) Reply
Thanks Round Pink Spider for the information. This is a wonderful theory to get your brain around. I can't wait to start hunting through the back posts.
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veraco - Oct 15, 2004 7:43 am (#404 of 565) Reply
Edited Oct 15, 2004 8:50 am
I just love this theory! but there is just one thing I'm not so sure about and it's the twins part.
I agree that Neville and Harry could be considered twins, but not as blood-related twins but as destiny twins. Let’s see if I can actually put this into words and forgive my english please.
What if the two Neptunes reference was related to Neville and Harry, but not to indicate that they are brothers or blood related, but to show that they share a prophecy? Remember what Dumbledore said in the end of OoP? when you listen to the prophecy you can conclude there are two boys who can have been chosen as the "nemesis" of Voldemort, you can say they were "twins" in many ways because of the signals that where to be considered if you were looking for one them: both have parents that had defeated Voldemort 3 times, both where born at the end of July, etc. But there is a small difference so the "twins" are not identical, one is a half-blood child and the other is pure-blood. In the end that small, but great difference, was a key part in the desicion Voldemort made when he decided to search for the Potters and Harry, he choose the one who like himself was a half-blood, marking him as his equal, instead of the pure-blood Longbottons and Neville.
As for Neville's wand and his lack of power, I just think it has something to do with the fact that he was using a wand that wasn't his own and that he lacks the confidence he needs to do the spells properly, that and the fact that he has always been told how good his parents where in everything they did. I just think Neville must feel a bit nervous or pressure to be or become more like his parents when he might not want that. When Neville was in the DA he was improving nicely because he was motivated and encourage by Harry, and when Snape is not around he is not so terribly horrible in potions. We will see what happens next, but I just think that the twins relationship has more to do with the prophesy that with anything else. I also think Neville part in all this will go further but not much, Harry is the one who in the end will go to the final battle and who will fulfil the prophesy in one way or another.
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Round Pink Spider - Oct 18, 2004 6:32 am (#405 of 565) Reply
Edited Oct 18, 2004 7:39 am
Hello, Veraco! Welcome, and thank you! I'm sorry I didn't see your post sooner.
There are many people who agree with you, and I can understand why. There are many hidden clues that indicate that Neville and Harry are physical twins, but they are so tucked away in the text that they are easy to overlook and easy to dismiss. However, I don't mind that people don't agree. I believe this issue will come up near the end of HBP, so hopefully it will be resolved then.
If anyone who enjoys this theory ever wants to see the monthly Potter newsletter I put out, just let me know here. It's mostly devoted to symbolic analysis of the text and finding references to other famous literary works, like the legends of King Arthur. If you do a search for "Macbeth" on this thread and select post #195, that is a good example of the contents of the newsletter.
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Magical Llama - Oct 18, 2004 1:11 pm (#406 of 565) Reply
Spider --
Can you explain why Harry mislabels the planet Venus as Mars during his astrology practical-exam, or why Voldemort and Harry share brother wands? How can you discount Voldemort in the twin theory when J.K.R's answer to the relation question is so vague and inconclusive?
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Round Pink Spider - Oct 18, 2004 1:56 pm (#407 of 565) Reply
Edited Oct 18, 2004 3:05 pm
Although I'm not certain about the Venus-Mars thing, I would guess it refers to Harry's constantly yelling at his friends throughout OotP, and thinking that Dumbledore doesn't care about him. He's mistaking love for war (Venus for Mars), and treating those that care about him as enemies. But astrology is not my specialty.
I believe that Voldemort and Harry share brother wands because Harry is carrying Voldemort's powers. Only a wand as nearly identical to Voldemort's as possible would suit Harry. I would guess they could use each other's wands just as effectively.
As I said once before, I don't discount Harry and Voldemort as a "pair." This is only a question of definition. I consider Harry's and Voldemort's relationship to be one of identity (in the mathematical sense). They are like opposite poles of one magnet, or maybe like matter and antimatter. They have almost identical powers. They have similar backgrounds. They appear to have equally intense personalities. But they are completely opposing forces. That's why it's excruciatingly painful for Harry when they come together.
Although opposing pairs are also an important theme in Harry Potter (the Macbeth post I mentioned above, #195, talks about this a little), I consider twins to be similar, not opposite. If you look at those that JKR calls twins in HP, they are all identical or similar. I have no problem if you want to call Voldemort and Harry "twins". I don't use that term because that's not how I use the word "twin." I'm just trying to use it as JKR has used it.
In the case of Harry and Neville coming into conflict, this is a situation in which forces outside of their control would force them to oppose one another. It is not a question of their essential natures being opposite, but of Fate pitting them against one another when neither of them desires it.
I'm uncertain what you are speaking about when you say that "JKR's answer to the relation question is so vague and inconclusive". Her answers are often vague or misleading. To which answer are you referring?
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Acceber - Oct 19, 2004 12:46 pm (#408 of 565) Reply
While reading through CoS the other day, looking for Running Bits (I'm being good, Amy) I noticed something about lineage. Here's the quote: "'But maybe you've got to be related to Slytherin, so Dumbledore couldn't-' began Dean Thomas, but Professor Binns had had enough."-page 152.
In one reference book I own, they have a rule of thumb where if JKR stops in the middle of a phrase, she's hiding something. Dumbledore couldn't-what? We know for a fact he's not related to Slytherin, but what's JKR hiding here? And will it come up in HBP?
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Round Pink Spider - Oct 19, 2004 1:26 pm (#409 of 565) Reply
Hi, Acceber!
(I have that book, too.) I think in this case JKR was hiding a big ol' smelly red herring. Dumbledore couldn't "open the Chamber of Secrets." Dumbledore isn't related to Salazar Slytherin, but neither is Harry. JKR has said this, even on her website. Because Harry has Voldie's powers, he can speak Parseltongue. I think the goal of this "clue" was to get us all to wonder about Harry.
I do think the topic of Harry having Voldie's powers will come up in HBP. I also wonder if, in a sense, Harry will "replace" Voldemort as sort of a spiritual Heir of Slytherin, so that the school can be renewed. Even though he isn't a blood descendant, apparently the Chamber "accepted" him as the Heir.
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Jessalynn Quirky - Oct 19, 2004 1:58 pm (#410 of 565) Reply
It didn't exactly--well, that is the basilisk wouldn't obey Harry, but it would follow Tom, who was just a memory. How did the basilisk know that Tom was the heir and not Harry? It wouldn't've seen Tom, because he was possessing Ginny. How did it know Ginny wasn't the heir?
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veraco - Oct 20, 2004 5:15 am (#411 of 565) Reply
Edited Oct 20, 2004 6:19 am
Well maybe the basilisk is like a dog, he can recognize a voice even if he cannot see or recognize the one who's speaking, maybe even recognize an Heir or an older master since Tom opened the Chamber before for the first time (that we know of) in years?.
In CoS Tom was talking trough Ginny so the beast was controlled by her at those moments but when she was out of the scene Tom was the one having the control and not Harry because the basilisk recognize Tom voice as the voice of his master.
Harry could open the chamber because he can speak parseltongue but couldn't control the beast because the basilisk did not recognize him as his owner and master.
If I'm not mistaken didn't the book said the Heir alone could control the beast? If that's right you can think anyone who can speak parseltongue could open the chamber, but only a true Slytherin Heir could hope to control the horror inside.... That still leaves us with the question about JKR cut phrase but can help us (or not) with other things.
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LooneyLuna - Oct 20, 2004 5:52 am (#412 of 565) Reply
We don't know for sure if Harry could control the Basilisk, he didn't try. Riddle just said Harry wouldn't be able too, but we know Riddle is a liar.
Although, when Harry asked for help, the Basilisk swept the Sorting Hat into Harry's arms, so maybe the Basilisk was trying to help.
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Round Pink Spider - Oct 20, 2004 10:16 am (#413 of 565) Reply
What an interesting discussion!
I went back and checked the text -- it was only in the movie that Riddle told Harry the Basilisk wouldn't obey him.
I think the Basilisk might have obeyed Harry if he'd commanded it, especially after it was blinded. I think that the only reason "the Heir alone" would be able to control it is that Parseltongue is so rare. Riddle seemed to think that only he and Harry had been able to speak it among all the students to attend Hogwarts in 1000 years. In Fantastic Beasts, it says that "Basilisks are uncontrollable except by Parselmouths" (emphasis mine).
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Madame Librarian - Oct 20, 2004 12:51 pm (#414 of 565) Reply
And...there's the possibility that it's not only Parseltongue that's important, but that one knows the right things to say. Maybe there are special code words or a special spell/charm/incantation that triggers the desired response.
Ciao. Barb
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Solitaire - Oct 21, 2004 8:06 pm (#415 of 565) Reply
I agree with LooneyLuna ... we really don't know that Harry couldn't control the Basilisk. After all, Harry (and we) only had Riddle's word for it, and we all know what that is worth! I wish he had tried to talk to the Basilisk. We know he understood what Riddle was saying, and we know he was able to open the Chamber.
I wonder if each Parselmouth's "snake language" is unique to him or her. If it is, then it stands to reason that Harry would understand and probably even be able to speak Voldemort's "dialect" or "idiolect" of it.
Since Parseltongue has been important thus far, I'm wondering if it will be important again. We all know that Voldemort is arrogant with regard to Harry, so perhaps he disregards Harry's ability as a Parselmouth. Perhaps we might get to see Harry commanding Nagini to do something against Voldemort. hehe
Solitaire
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MickeyCee3948 - Oct 22, 2004 9:18 am (#416 of 565) Reply
Does he know of Harry's ability as a Parselmouth? Harry has never tried to talk Parselmouth to Nagini and it wasn't Voldemort in CoS, it was Tom Riddle's memory. Harry may be able to use this transferred power aganist Voldemort in the end.
Mikie
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definitelyCuivienen - Oct 23, 2004 12:05 pm (#417 of 565) Reply
Presumably, he knew what Ginny knew, which included the fact that Harry was a Parselmouth. In any case, if he didn't know that Harry was a Parselmouth, why try to lure Harry down to the CoS by taking Ginny there if he didn't know Harry could open the Chamber in the first place?
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MickeyCee3948 - Oct 23, 2004 1:44 pm (#418 of 565) Reply
Cuivienen you misunderstand my meaning. I am not saying Tom Riddle in CoS didn't know of Harry being able to speak Parselmouth. I am saying that Voldemort after his rebirthing would not know of Harry being a Parselmouth.
Mikie
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LooneyLuna - Oct 23, 2004 3:52 pm (#419 of 565) Reply
I'm sure Voldemort knows. It was in the paper, and I'm sure either Wormtail, Snape or Malfoy have mentioned that tidbit to him.
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Jessalynn Quirky - Oct 23, 2004 4:50 pm (#420 of 565) Reply
If he does know, does he know that Harry got it from him?
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Solitaire - Oct 23, 2004 5:42 pm (#421 of 565) Reply
Jessalyn, I agree with LooneyLuna that Wormtail would probably have told him by now, since he would have known all about it. Even if he had not told him, it is possible that Voldemort might have probed Harry's memories and found out about it.
Whether Voldemort would assume he transferred the power to Harry is up for grabs. In his arrogance, Voldemort sometimes seems to overlook the obvious. Then again, that very arrogance COULD lead him to assume the gift could only have come from him, since Harry is not an heir of Slytherin.
Whatever the case, I find it hard to believe that such an important ability will not come into use in the coming books--especially now that we know of Voldemort's affinity for snakes.
Solitaire
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Round Pink Spider - Oct 24, 2004 5:22 am (#422 of 565) Reply
That's a really great question! Has Voldemort yet figured out that he transferred power to Harry? I think the answer is no. I would think that Voldemort would be expecting Harry, as his "chosen opponent", to have unusual powers, maybe even Parseltongue. How long will Voldemort continue to underestimate Harry, do you think?
When we discussed the connections with Macbeth, I pointed out that Macbeth was defeated in the end because he thought he understood the prophecies, and was overconfident that he had provided adequately to protect himself. In the end, it was his own overconfidence that was his undoing. I think Voldemort is going to underestimate Harry right up to the end. He'll think that he has everything under control, and that will be Voldemort's undoing.
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LooneyLuna - Oct 24, 2004 5:33 am (#423 of 565) Reply
I agree with you both, RPS and Solitare. I don't think Voldemort has figured out he transferred powers to Harry yet, but he will soon.
Voldemort will never say that Harry is more powerful or has a power that Voldemort "knows not" though. Voldemort thinks highly of himself
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Solitaire - Oct 24, 2004 1:50 pm (#424 of 565) Reply
I'll admit that it certainly makes for more drama if Voldemort does not know that he transferred certain powers to Harry. It also makes me wonder ... what other powers that we have not yet seen were transferred?
In Mugglenet's page of facts we know about Book 6, the 7th item on the Random Facts list says "Harry becomes even more powerful in book 6." I just wonder what powers we will see. Will they be powers that are his alone, from his parents ... or will there be even more powers from Voldemort ... or both?
Solitaire
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Round Pink Spider - Oct 25, 2004 4:50 am (#425 of 565) Reply
And the answer is....yes. :-D
Seriously, the way that people kept talking in the early books about how Voldemort "lost" his powers, I think they all got dumped into Harry. And "Spider Trelawney" is predicting that he'll probably become aware of them in HBP, but he won't accept them until near the end of the book (when it would be the most dramatic).
Really, it would have to be near the end of the book when you think about it. This has to be the book when everything goes wrong, and if Harry gets too powerful too early, it would be "HARRY TO THE RESCUE!!!"
Hey, does anyone have any speculations about why DD would have been writing to Petunia before Harry arrived on their doorstep? JKR said he was. Boy, I'm coming up empty on this one.
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Madame Librarian - Oct 25, 2004 8:52 am (#426 of 565) Reply
RPS, on the DD's Dursley letter thread there's lots of good discussion about the letters to Petunia before Harry was there, and some that may have come to her when Harry was there, but did not get shared with Vernon (they were for her eyes only, or Pet chose not to include Vernon in the loop).
Good stuff there on that thread.
Ciao. Barb
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Round Pink Spider - Nov 19, 2004 8:32 pm (#427 of 565) Reply
Although Julie Aronson and I are still working on the article for our newsletter, I wanted to bring up the Alice in Wonderland topic again. I mentioned at the end of September that there are a lot of ties between HP and Alice. These are the connections that have been found so far (Harry is "Alice" throughout):
- Ron, who's already been connected with rabbits (his family lives in the Burrow), was born in March, so that makes him the March Hare
- Hermione's been knitting hats to free the house-elves, so that makes her the Mad Hatter
- Albus (meaning white) Dumbledore pulled out his watch at the beginning of SS/PS and remarked that Hagrid was late, very much like the white rabbit at the beginning of Alice
- The Duchess' baby looked remarkably like a pig, just like Dudley. (And it turned into a pig later.)
- There are many references to decapitation in both cases ("Off with his/her head!")
- Alice ate or drank many things that made her grow or shrink. Snape has taught both a Swelling Solution and a Shrinking Solution.
- At one point, when something Alice ate made her extremely tall (with a long, sinuous neck), a bird accused her of being a serpent, and thought she wanted to steal eggs (both important references in HP).
Here is a new one from Alice:
- When Alice fell into the pool of her own tears, a mouse swam by, and she asked it for help. When it didn't respond, she decided it must be a French mouse, come over with William the Conqueror. There is a Chateau du Crevy in Britanny, one of the provinces that assisted William the Conqueror. So it would appear that one of the "mousey" Creevey brothers could be connected to this "French" mouse.
And here are some additional ones from Through the Looking Glass:
- Alice passed through a glass (mirror) that had become "like a bright silvery mist" (like the thoughts in the Pensieve, which became like a glass through which Harry could pass)
- The pictures on the wall in the "Looking Glass House" all seemed to be alive.
- While Alice was watching things in the "Looking Glass House", she observed that no one could see her or hear her.
- JKR herself has already connected Luna to the White Queen, who was able to believe six impossible things before breakfast, because she practiced.
- It appears that Sir Cadogan, the little knight in the painting in PoA, is the White Knight in Through the Looking Glass (he constantly falls off his horse)
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TwinklingBlueEyes - Nov 19, 2004 8:58 pm (#428 of 565) Reply
RPS, I l also agree there are a lot of ties, or similarities in HP and Alice in Wonderland, but may I point out there are also a lot of ties with mythology, alchemy, medieval legends, and JKR's vast knowledge of a lot of literary themes in her work? Not to discredit Wonderland, but there is more at work in JKR's mind, I do believe.
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Julie Aronson - Nov 20, 2004 5:00 am (#429 of 565) Reply
TBE:
I agree that the pool from which JKR draws is indeed vast and varied. However, part of the fun is trying to pin down which things are from where in an effort to solve her puzzles, don't you think?
Julie
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Round Pink Spider - Nov 20, 2004 5:38 am (#430 of 565) Reply
Hi, TBE!
Of course there are! I can't remember if you were visiting this thread earlier, but this thread started with legends of King Arthur and the Holy Grail, and we've also visited Macbeth and "The Little Elephant's Child." The connections to alchemy are of course far more profound, but JKR has drawn from many lesser works also, including quite a few children's stories. I think this is connected to her sense of humor; I think she takes great delight in tying nonsense like "The Frog Prince" and "Hansel and Gretel" into serious material like T. S. Eliot's "The Wasteland" and Greek mythology. I mean, who can think about that without a smile? Not me!
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Elanor - Nov 21, 2004 11:26 am (#431 of 565) Reply
Hi RPS! I've searched a little for the Château du Crévy but unfortunately I have not found a lot of information about it. As far as I know only a ruin of that castle still exists and I have found nothing about its history. But I can easily email the tourist office of Ploërmel, the town near the castle, they might have something interesting to say about it. Would you want me to do it?
BTW, I went on the Ploërmel site and I couldn't believe my eyes! It is a small town and guess what is the name of their only cinema? "The Syrius"!
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Round Pink Spider - Nov 22, 2004 7:09 am (#432 of 565) Reply
If you'd like, Elanor, but I'm not sure there's any more information there. I think the real connection with our "French mouse" is that it saved Alice from drowning. Perhaps that is the role that one of the Creevey brothers will play. The name may serve no more purpose than to identify the Creeveys with that mouse. (We've already seen Dennis in the lake!)
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Solitaire - Nov 22, 2004 8:25 pm (#433 of 565) Reply
What about Harry, who saved Fleur's little sister (or so he thought) from drowning during the second Triwizard task? This act earned him Fleur's gratitude, respect, and admiration. Any connection?
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Round Pink Spider - Nov 23, 2004 5:09 am (#434 of 565) Reply
I'm not sure if his saving her is specifically connected to that, because JKR has made such a point of calling the Creevey brothers "mousey." I've noticed that being saved from drowning is sort of a theme in the books, though. Hermione observed that Ron had himself down as "drowning twice" in his dream diary; Dennis fell in the lake and was saved by the giant squid; Harry said that the Dursleys didn't get him any swimming lessons, perhaps because they hoped he'd drown; then there was the Second Triwizard Task. I kind of think we may see more of this in the next book.
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Amilia Smith - Dec 10, 2004 12:12 pm (#435 of 565) Reply
There is a bunch of new information on jkrowling.com that applies to some of your theories, RPS. I've copied and pasted what I thought was relevant.
In the Extra Stuff page, under WANDS, Jo writes:
“I gave Harry a wand made of holly wood back in 1990, when I first drafted chapter six of ‘Philosopher’s Stone’. It was not an arbitrary decision: holly has certain connotations that were perfect for Harry, particularly when contrasted with the traditional associations of yew, from which Voldemort’s wand is made. European tradition has it that the holly tree (the name comes from ‘holy’) repels evil, while yew, which can achieve astonishing longevity (there are British yew trees over two thousand years old), can symbolise both death and resurrection; the sap is also poisonous.
Sometime after I had given Harry his holly-and-phoenix wand I came across a description of how the Celts had assigned trees to different parts of the year and discovered that, entirely by coincidence, I had assigned Harry the ‘correct’ wood for his day of birth.”
(skipping a bit)
“Hagrid, . . . has an oak wand, though by this Celtic system he should have a wand made of elder; in Britain, the oak is ‘King of the Forest’ and symbolises strength, protection and fecundity; what other wood could ‘choose’ Hagrid?”
(end quote)
Then, in the FAQ section, under an Open Letter question about Theodore Nott being the stringy Slytherin who can see thestrals, she says:
“In my notes, Nott is also described as ‘rabbity’ in appearance.”
(end quote)
So . . . what do you think?
Mills.
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Round Pink Spider - Dec 10, 2004 1:56 pm (#436 of 565) Reply
Thanks, Amilia, that's very interesting!
It would also have been interesting to find out whether she knew that the Celts considered Holly and Oak to be "twin kings". If Neville does come back with an oak wand, you can be sure it's not a coincidence; if he doesn't, there's no way to know. I notice she didn't mention that HOLLY is considered a woodland king, also. :-D
So, she called Nott "rabbity" in her notes? Interesting... fascinating, even. It's also intriguing that she didn't use the word to describe him in the text... I'd been questioning my interpretation of "Rabbits are Gryffindors" over the last few days; however, it would take a very long post to explain what I'm guessing. However, I find it extremely significant that she bothered to mention this on her website. She does like to drop clues like that for the alert. I suspect that Teddy Nott and Harry may end up being friends...
By the way, be sure to check the Door on JKR's website on the winter solstice! If it doesn't open that day, I will drop dead with surprise.
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Round Pink Spider - Dec 20, 2004 4:08 pm (#437 of 565) Reply
Yup, today's the winter solstice, and it opened!
I wonder if the release date will be the summer solstice again...
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Scarlet Seer - Jan 10, 2005 4:03 pm (#438 of 565) Reply
Hey, good call about the door opening on the solstice. The book will be coming out a bit before the solstice, though. By the way, has anyone ever wondered if the ways the letters were delivered to Harry in Book I are significant? There are seven of them...
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Julia. - Jan 10, 2005 8:15 pm (#439 of 565) Reply
Scarlet Seer, the ways the letters were delivered to Harry in Book 1? Which letters are you talking about, and could you please remind me about the ways they were delivered?
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hawkeyetkdchick - Jan 10, 2005 11:34 pm (#440 of 565) Reply
Julia- I think Scarlet Seer is talking about the letters Harry received inviting him to Hogwarts. Without looking through the books I remember the first day was by normal muggle post, the next day I think was just more letters by post, then coming under the front door (I think), coming in eggs, through the fireplace, and finally being delivered by Hagrid. I missed a few, but I don't have my books on me at the moment.
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Scarlet Seer - Jan 11, 2005 7:17 pm (#441 of 565) Reply
First Attempt - Before Harry got his first letter, he had just emerged from his cupboard, which is under the stairs. In the same way, Harry has been “underground” up until now, “under the stares,” that is, away from the attention of, the world. Harry’s first letter was delivered through normal channels. It was delivered in an obvious manner; there wasn’t any subterfuge. In the first book, the conflict was pretty obvious. Although Harry didn’t know what teacher he was working through, it was clear that the threat was Voldemort’s attempt to get the Stone.
Second Try - Before Harry’s second set of letters was delivered, he was in Dudley’s second bedroom, where everything is broken and the only things untouched are the books. In the second book, the broken things were important: the out-of-order girl’s restroom and the tap that “never worked.” The school had been scoured for signs of the Chamber of Secrets, but Hermione found the answer in an old book that had been overlooked before. Also, notice the video camera lying about. Remember that Colin was taking pictures of Harry, which he wanted to have developed magically so they would move, just as a picture taken by a video camera would move. When the letters were delivered, they still were delivered in the obvious way, but there was a living obstacle in Harry’s way (Uncle Vernon), just as the basilisk guarding the Chamber of Secrets.
Third Try - Before Harry’s third set of letters was delivered, Uncle Vernon was nailing up the mail slot, just as Filch was nailing up mouse holes in Prisoner of Azkaban. Aunt Petunia served a fruitcake, which is what everyone thought Sirius was. Despite all their precautions, however, the letters got in, just as Sirius was able to enter the grounds and the dementors came to the Quidditch game.
Fourth Try - “On Saturday, things began to get out of hand,” just as events got away from Dumbledore’s and the Ministry’s control at the end of the third task. The letters were hidden in eggs, just as Harry had to get the dragon egg and open it to get its secrets.
Fifth Try - On Sunday, the letters came through the fireplace. In Order of the Phoenix, there was a plot that involved fireplaces and Floo Powder. Uncle Vernon “seized Harry around the waist and threw him into the hall.” At the end of Order of the Phoenix, Harry was sent back to Dumbledore’s study via a portkey, which is describes as causing a feeling like a yank behind the navel, so it pulls at Harry in the vicinity of the waist. As in the end of Book V, Harry was sent out of the room before everything had been resolved.
Sixth Try - Before the sixth batch of letters was delivered, Harry, Aunt Petunia, Uncle Vernon, and Dudley took off in the car. We know that Harry’s stay at Number 4 will be the “shortest yet” and that he will be picked up for a “happier reason” than getting taken to St. Mungo’s. The trip in the Dursley’s car might refer to that. They ended up in a dingy hotel where “Dudley and Harry shared a room with twin beds and damp, musty sheets.” IF (and this is a big “if,” because I’m not really sure where I stand on this one) Harry and Neville are twins, the “twin beds” could be a reference to that fact. I wonder what the dingy hotel is…
Seventh Try - Before the seventh batch of letters were delivered, Harry and company took a trip on a little boat over storm-tossed waters to a tiny shack on a rock. Harry was wondering if the roof would fall in, which is what happened to his parents’ house. I would think that Harry would visit Godric’s hollow one of these days, but it may well not be until Book 7. Hagrid knocked at the door with a loud “Boom” precisely at midnight, on the first second of Harry’s birthday. Dudley sat up and said, “Where’s the cannon?” This might be a reference to the final battle between Harry and Voldemort, but there really isn’t much to give any details. Anyway, I’m not committed to any of this. What do you old hands think?
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Julia. - Jan 11, 2005 10:56 pm (#442 of 565) Reply
Thanks Scarlet Seer! I'm much less confused now.
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hawkeyetkdchick - Jan 12, 2005 7:12 am (#443 of 565) Reply
Scarlet Seer- That would make an interesting thread, in my opinion. You might want to start one.
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Round Pink Spider - Feb 11, 2005 6:04 pm (#444 of 565) Reply
I’m sorry it took me so long to get back to you, Scarlet Seer! A whole month…
Your analysis is quite good, but I think you lost your place in the middle of the letters (an easy thing to do)…so I’ll just add my comments. I agree with you that it looks like these represent the seven books, but if you count, there were actually eight attempts to contact Harry, the last being Hagrid. I think maybe the seventh book will have a double climax, like GoF (Voldemort trying to kill Harry, then Crouch Jr. trying to kill him).
The first day/book: Excellent observation about Harry being “under the stares”! I like that.
The second day/book: Another excellent observation about the “broken things” being the important things in CoS. One thing I noticed was that, after the second letter, Harry was confined to his room, just as he was at the beginning of CoS.
The third day/book: This was where you lost your place. This was the day when Harry was trying to sneak out of the house to get his letters from the mailman and stepped on his uncle. In PoA, Harry ran away from the house, and ended up getting on the Knight Bus, which took him right to the Minister of Magic. It was at the end of this day that Uncle Vernon was nailing up the mail slot with a fruitcake. This matches up with Harry scaring his Aunt and Uncle into being nicer to him by telling them that Sirius was dangerous.
The fourth day/book:[ The letters tried to get in under the doors and around the edges of the windows, just as the Weasleys tried to get in through the boarded-up fireplace. Vernon was humming “Tiptoe Through the Tulips”, maybe as a reference to Voldemort being “resurrected”, since bulbs are a symbol of resurrection. Vernon made it impossible for anyone to go in or out; we saw Harry stuck at Privet Drive without information as a result of Voldemort’s return.
The fifth day/book: I think the eggs actually represent the prophecies that Harry saw, and the letters were the truth, hidden within the “eggs”. The things that got out of hand were probably the DEs, and they were out of hand because the Ministry refused to take a hand in stopping them.
The sixth day/book: This would represent HBP. Thirty or forty letters came out of the fireplace “like bullets.” To me, this sounds like attacks on Harry, which would really be inevitable now that Voldemort is no longer hiding. I think everyone expects Harry to lose Dumbledore in this next book. I would predict that Vernon throwing Harry into the hall by the waist would be Dumbledore saving Harry’s life at the expense of his own. They ended up leaving the house and spending all day traveling. At one point, Jo Rowling commented that this book would be quite short without all the “to-ing and fro-ing”, so maybe Harry spends a lot of this year going places? But at the end, they end up in the dingy hotel with the twin beds. I’m of the opinion that the dingy hotel is St. Mungo’s, and that this scene (and others I’ve seen) are implying that BOTH Harry and Neville will end up in St. Mungo’s at the end of HBP.
The seventh day/book: This was the one day Harry didn’t even get to SEE the letters – Uncle Vernon went off and dealt with them at the front desk. As sheer speculation, this makes me think of the Order trying to see Harry in the hospital and not being permitted to see him. Uncle Vernon spent all day looking for something. Finally, he took them out to the tiny shack on the rock. (Didn’t JKR once say that she had imagined the house in which Harry’s family was hiding as a little house out on a rock in the middle of the water, but then changed that?) I agree with you, though, Scarlet Seer – this last bit with Hagrid sounds like Voldemort’s attack on the house in Godric’s Hollow! As evidence, I believe that the house in Godric’s Hollow was attacked around midnight on Monday, October 31st, and the next day, November 1st, was a TUESDAY. Hagrid arrives at the hut at around midnight on a Monday, and the next day was a TUESDAY. And the first thing Hagrid said to Harry was “Las’ time I saw you, you was only a baby.” I find that very intriguing…
I think a lot of people have speculated that the voice Harry heard and thought was his dad was actually himself, just as he thought he SAW his dad at the end of PoA. As you mentioned, as Harry was counting down the minutes before his birthday, he was wondering if the roof would fall in, which might have happened at his parents’ house.
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Phoenix song - Feb 23, 2005 12:25 pm (#445 of 565) Reply
Scarlet Seer and Round Pink Spider, I think that these are excellent observations on both of your parts! You've done a great job of finding the clues (like the leaves of Lorien) that Jo has left behind for us and have expertly utilized them to decipher the remaining books...and to more deeply appreciate the books that are already being studied.
I also wonder if the voice that Harry assumed was James' voice might actually be his own. As you've astutely pointed out, Harry has mistaken himself for his father once before. Wouldn't that be an interesting turn of events?
Barbie
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Solitaire - Feb 23, 2005 11:48 pm (#446 of 565) Reply
For the voice he hears to be his own, he must be using a Time Turner--and think how many times he'd have had to turn it! And if that "self" was killed there in Godric's Hollow, how could he exist now? Oh, it's too late and I'm confused ... The Time Turner always makes my brain hurt!
Solitaire
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Phoenix song - Feb 24, 2005 7:01 am (#447 of 565) Reply
Solitaire, you must remember that it was because of the time turner that Harry first confused his father for himself...and we know that Jo has promised us much "to-ing and fro-ing" in the upcoming books (which seems to indicate time travel). So it's not impossible to think that time travel will play into the future books, and into revealing what occurred in the past. There are too many possible twists and turns for me to begin to speculate about how such-and-so will transpire, but I think that it's important that we are open to all possibilities and do not limit ourselves by what OUR imagination can conjure. We're relying on JKR's imagination to see us through to the end. I can definitely see her using the time turner again and having a "mirroring" scene, like this one, in which Harry discovers that who he assumed to be James was really himself.
Time travel is a sticky, convoluted, hard-to-imagine and explain concept. However, since JKR has already utilized this magical means of altering events, then I think that it's important for us to keep an open mind with regards to the possibilities that it will happen again...and possibly with a more shocking result. It's just my thoughts, of course.
Barbie
Edit: With regards to "how many times" the time turner must be turned, I'm wondering if there are different sizes of time turners. Hermione's time turner was small and could be used to turn back in hourly increments. It may be that there are larger ones that can be made to turn back larger intervals of time...days, months, years, even. The possibilities are endless in a magical environment!
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Solitaire - Feb 24, 2005 7:24 am (#448 of 565) Reply
There would certainly have to be turners for years, decades, and centuries, I would think. Time travel surely happened with the diary--several decades (and yes, I realize that was a diary and not a time-turner)--so it is possible. Harry traveling to GH is tricky, though I have hardly closed my mind to it ... even though it does make my brain hurt. I do a lot of things that make my brain hurt. After all, I teach junior high! LOL
In fact, I can see the very real possibility of Harry traveling back in time and actually "vanquishing" Voldemort AT Godric's Hollow, when he is in a weakened state. Or perhaps he might try to kill Voldemort before he kills James and Lily ... although perhaps there are rules and laws about that sort of thing. I suppose Dumbledore would tell him.
Okay, that's enough time-turning for this morning. I haven't even had a full cup of coffee yet!
Solitaire
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Phoenix song - Feb 24, 2005 7:53 am (#449 of 565) Reply
Solitaire, I think that you've made a great connection with the Diary. I hadn't really thought of it before, but certainly Riddle used some sort of time turning "enchantment" within the diary to bring Harry back 50 years.
I agree that time turning is a headachy business to contemplate (possibly even more perplexing than a school full of junior high students...no, probably not that frustrating...) My husband is a fan of the series, but he goes ballistic with the whole time turning concept.
But, like you've speculated, it would be wonderful if there was some way that Harry could go back to the night in Godric's Hollow and erase some of the wrongs done. There is certainly more that happened to Harry, his parents, and even Voldemort that fateful night than what we've been told so far. I'm hopeful that we will learn more in HBP and not have to wait for book 7.
Barbie
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Steve Newton - Feb 24, 2005 8:58 am (#450 of 565) Reply
I don't know. I don't think that Harry went back 50 years. I always conceive of the diary as sort of a 3d movie experience, highly edited by Riddle. I could be wrong.
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Round Pink Spider - Feb 24, 2005 9:34 am (#451 of 565) Reply
I agree with you, Steve. I guess I assume that the diary was behaving somewhat like a Pensieve, although it might only show what Riddle wanted shown, edited as you say.
I'm highly suspicious that Harry defeating Voldemort might not be the last word. I've found a number of symbolic scenes that seem to imply something happening after that. Sheer speculation... what if Harry defeated Voldemort decisively, but Voldemort survived, and he decided that the only way to get rid of Harry was to go back and kidnap Harry's mother, so that she wasn't there to save Harry?
If, as I suspect, James wasn't there that night, and Harry followed him back...well, I do have some reasons for the speculation. I noticed months ago that, in SS/PS, p. 215, Harry was having a dream about his parents disappearing in a flash of green light. That really bothers me. According to everything we know, baby Harry neither saw nor heard the attack on James. And JKR said that he didn't see his mother die because he was in his crib. I can't help wondering if baby Harry saw his parents (actually Lily, then Harry) disappearing through the Floo network.
As far as I know, only 3 magical spells make green light: Avada Kedavra, Morsmordre, and Floo powder. I've always found that rather suspicious.
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Choices - Feb 24, 2005 10:21 am (#452 of 565) Reply
It would seem that when a person goes back in time, like Harry and Hermione did, they actively participate in what is going on at the time or they can manipulate what is going on. With Riddle's diary, Harry was more an observer, not able to be heard or to participate, so that makes me think he did not actually go back, but saw what was going on much like in the Pensieve.
What about what took place in the bell jar in the DOM.....was that going back in time? The hummingbird went from egg to adulthood and back again - did it time travel in its life cycle? How about the DE? That covered a span of many years - baby to adult - in a short period of time. Was that one of the larger time turners that could cover say 50 years in a few seconds? Who manipulated the time turner to cause the process? Does the bell jar have some sort of built-in time turner? Questions, questions!
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Round Pink Spider - Feb 24, 2005 3:41 pm (#453 of 565) Reply
It'd be nice if JKR would answer these questions someday... :-)
I would guess that time turners create a "field" in which time moves backward the amount determined by how many times the turner is turned over. The bell jar seems to contain a "circle" of time, that goes backward and then moves forward again. But frankly, I really think that the bell jar thing is supposed to be symbolic of Harry going back to the time when he was a baby, and then returning (coming full circle).
It seems pretty obvious that some very important details were left out of the beginning of SS/PS. My favorite: how did everyone know that Voldemort was gone? Clearly there was no body; people started celebrating within 12 hours of his "disappearance." Something happened that has yet to be revealed, that made it clear that Voldemort had been temporarily defeated. That's part of the reason I think Harry has to go back, because it's such a secret.
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Annika - Mar 14, 2005 11:16 am (#454 of 565) Reply
I don't think that Harry can use the TimeTurner to defeat Voldemort in the past, because if he did, he would be defeated presently. His presence in the past (if it was him and not his father, which by the way is a wonderful theory) may have been the reason young Harry lived, but if a Time Turner will be/has been used, the effects of said travel will have already taken place. We just haven't seen it from the present point of view yet, only from the POV of baby Harry. On the other hand, if "Vanquished" means "to force into submission", then it is possible that Harry used the TimeTurner that night, "vanquished" the Dark Lord and returned, thinking that all was well and good, but he hadn't changed anything that he had already experienced. If this is the case, has Harry already fulfilled part of the Prophecy?
Ouch, headache. Sorry for the rambling. Annika
(This is just an opinion based upon my assumption of how the TimeTurner works. Not to mention I am not sure it makes a lick of sense.)
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Annika - Mar 14, 2005 11:25 am (#455 of 565) Reply
Scarlet Seer, I apologize, in my above rantings, I forgot to mention how much I love your theory. Very insightful and interesting. I am sold more and more each day on the twins theory. One more notch to the tally. Thanks.
Sorry for the double post.
Annika
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Round Pink Spider - Mar 15, 2005 1:25 pm (#456 of 565) Reply
I hope I don't make your head-ache worse by adding this, Annika...if the Voldemort of the present went back into the past, there would be two of them there at the same time (as there were two Harrys and Hermiones at the same time in PoA). I was speculating that what baby Harry might have seen ("his parents disappearing in a flash of green light") was Harry pursuing the present-day Voldemort, who could have taken Lily in an effort to ensure that his past self wouldn't face Lily when he came for baby Harry. Grown-up Harry would then have to pursue the present-day Voldemort to save his mother and make sure that things happened the way they were supposed to...even if he didn't want them to -- otherwise, he would cease to exist, and Voldemort would win.
Can one change the past? Well, Hermione said that "loads" of wizards ended up eliminating their past or future selves by mistake, so it sounds like it's possible. Maybe Harry going back and preventing a change is the only way to make sure everything stays the same. It'd be a cruel thing to put Harry through, forcing him to save his mother so that she can sacrifice herself to save him, but JKR did say that, as an author, she had to be "ruthless". But maybe it's something else... Maybe we'll discover that something totally amazing happened that night. Long wait to find out...
I don't know if Harry can stand in for his father -- it's an interesting speculation, but I still can't see how he could survive it. Maybe that's not guessable at this point. From the clues I've seen, though, I do think the story begins and ends at Godric's Hollow somehow. I can't wait to see how it works out.
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Annika - Mar 16, 2005 6:34 am (#457 of 565) Reply
I agree with you on all points. I forgot to add "future Voldemort" into my equation, possibly due to the splitting headache that erupted the second I started typing about time travel. The above is very well said, by the way. I found it difficult to write on such an abstract topic.
Annika
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LaLaLisa - Mar 22, 2005 1:23 am (#458 of 565) Reply
Wow, amazing theory and the recurrence of twins is very present in the books. I am impressed! The only thing is... where does Voldemort fit into all of it? Is he attempting a sort of overthrow of the wizarding royalty? Where does he come in? And where does Dumbledore come in? I agree that Neville is in there a lot and must have some great purpose other than just another character, but just curious if there are any additional portions of the theory about Dumbledore and Voldemort? And by the way, Annika and Scarlet Seer, I have thought that time travel has somehow fit into the equation of the story since I read PoA and found out that time travel occurred for wizards. I'm just not entirely sure exactly how it all would work or who would be time traveling....
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Round Pink Spider - Mar 23, 2005 4:15 pm (#459 of 565) Reply
Hello, LaLaLisa! Are you new? I haven't seen you around before! Welcome!
I and my friends locally have "learned" a great deal since I wrote the original posts that started this thread. A lot of what we've learned is connected to Alchemy, which is really important to HP.
Voldemort, as the Heir of Slytherin, is sort of a fulfillment of the divisive influence that Salazar Slytherin started. He is a living representative of Slytherin House's separation from the rest of Wizarding Society. At the very least, I'd say that Harry is the Heir of Gryffindor, but he may actually unite all three of the remaining lines in himself.
There are a lot of signs in the language of the text that Harry's family in some way has a unifying influence in the Wizarding World. I think Harry's family's purpose was summed up by Gilderoy Lockhart's "Ideal Birthday Gift":
I clearly state in chapter twelve that my ideal birthday gift would be harmony between magic and non-magic peoples--though I wouldn't say no to a large bottle of Ogden's Old Firewhisky! (CoS, p. 100)
Gilderoy means "gilded king", a fake king, and his heart is locked, whereas Harry's is open to the suffering of love.
I don't know if Voldemort knows about Harry's peculiar position, but that bit Sirius said about giving Voldemort "the last of the Potters" seems like a pretty intriguing clue. It makes it sound like Voldie's been exterminating Potters all along.
Where does DD come in? Well, at the least I would guess that he knows about Harry's position. I don't think they're related, but I sometimes wonder if there was some connection in the past between Harry's family and DD. Strictly speculation there, though. I'm sure we'll find that out in the next book.
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Choices - Mar 23, 2005 5:54 pm (#460 of 565) Reply
RPS - "It makes it sound like Voldie's been exterminating Potters all along."
I have often wondered at the short time span between James and Lily's deaths and the demise of James' parents. Sirius mentioned that he spent time with the elder Potter's after he left home and then got his own place at about 17/18 years of age. The elder Potter's died sometime between then and James' and Lily dying - a span of maybe 4 to 5 years. It makes me wonder if Voldemort didn't kill them and then killed James and Lily a few years later. Can't wait to find out.
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Round Pink Spider - Mar 23, 2005 6:05 pm (#461 of 565) Reply
Choices -- my thought exactly. Very strange that both James' parents died in such a short time. And all those relatives (aunts, uncles, grandparents, etc.) that he saw in the mirror -- they're all gone. WHY? Granted that a lot of people probably died during the First War, wizarding folk are supposed to live longer than Muggles. So why does it appear that Harry has no living relatives but the Dursleys?
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Veritaserum - Mar 31, 2005 7:32 pm (#462 of 565) Reply
Yes, I too have wondered why Harry has no other living relatives...hmm, very strange.
RPS, you keep making me wish I had the time and ability to go back and find all the clues that you use in your theories. Great point about the AK and Floo Powder being the same color. I'm sure there was something going on at Godric's Hollow that hasn't come out yet...things are rarely what they seem in Harry Potter, eh?
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Round Pink Spider - Apr 30, 2005 8:11 pm (#463 of 565) Reply
Uncle Vernon spent all day looking for something. Finally, he took them out to the tiny shack on the rock. (Didn’t JKR once say that she had imagined the house in which Harry’s family was hiding as a little house out on a rock in the middle of the water, but then changed that?)
Going back to the idea that the tiny shack on the rock represents the house at Godric's Hollow, I'm starting to wonder if the Shrieking Shack might not also represent the house at Godric's Hollow in some way. I've noticed that important story elements seem to appear again and again (symbolically) in the stories. Voldemort's laugh is always being described as high and cold... isn't a shriek of laughter high and cold???
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Solitaire - May 1, 2005 9:32 am (#464 of 565) Reply
With the exception of the Weasleys, the majority of Wizarding families we've met seem to have fewer rather than more children. Therefore, it does not seem odd to me that Harry has no other relatives on his father's side. If his father was an only child, that would rule out any Potter aunts, uncles and cousins. If his grandparents--or even one of them--were only children, that would further limit the possibility relatives on the Potter side.
If the entire Potter family (James and his parents) opposed Voldemort, it is possible that they might all have perished in the war or its aftermath. If James had a sibling, it seems Sirius would have mentioned him or her. Also, it would have given Harry another blood relative, had this person survived, and we have no indication that such a relative exists--or has ever existed.
Since we even know about the relatives of Molly Prewett Weasley, Susan Bones, and Sirius Black who were killed on Voldemort's orders, it seems odd that similar deaths in Harry's family would go unremarked by at least one of the former Order members we've met. JM2K, of course ...
Solitaire
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Finn BV - May 1, 2005 10:23 am (#465 of 565) Reply
It seems that somebody has brought up before if James was an only child and I think we arrived at the answer being yes. Sirius has said that the Potters took him "as a second son," so, James is at least the only boy in the family, and if James had at least a sister, Sirius would have said "third child" - JKR wouldn't leave out girls like that.
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Round Pink Spider - May 1, 2005 1:51 pm (#466 of 565) Reply
I do think that James was an only child. I was speaking of older relatives. The Mirror of Erised showed "at least ten others" who were related to him. A few of these were undoubtedly from his mother's side of the family ("other pairs of green eyes like his"), but some of them at least must have been his father's relatives. I was questioning both the rather sudden deaths of James' parents and the lack of any other living relatives. Even if James and his father were only children, what about his grandfather? His great-grandfather? A long line of only children, all of whom have died? Kind of odd...
Did you notice that Professor Marchbanks, who was one of Harry's O.W.L examiners, said that she'd examined Dumbledore herself when he did his NEWTs? That was 133 years ago -- and she must have already been a retired teacher at that point, since it appears they bring in retired teachers as examiners. And Professor Tofty was supposed to be older than she was. That'd make them, say 200 to 250 years old. That's about 8 to 10 generations. And Harry has no living wizard relations? Even if living to be 200 is uncommon, you'd think a few of his older relations might still be around.
Maybe it's just convenient, because orphans are rather a fixture in literature, and it leaves him free to deal with situations without much adult involvement. But if this were real life, I'd suspect foul play.
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Solitaire - May 1, 2005 7:56 pm (#467 of 565) Reply
If Harry turns out to be a descendant of GG, could that account for so many Potters having been killed off relatively early in their lives?
Solitaire
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Round Pink Spider - May 3, 2005 5:25 am (#468 of 565) Reply
Could be, Solitaire. After learning what I have about alchemy, I rather expect Harry to turn out to be a descendent of all three of the remaining founders. But I would guess that his family's connection with GG will be the most important. In any case, I don't find it particularly hard to believe that his family might have its enemies, maybe even other ones besides Voldything. But I'm sure we'll find out about all of that in the next book.
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librarian314 - May 3, 2005 7:07 am (#469 of 565) Reply
Hey all!
I've formed this theory that the Elder Mr. Potter (James' dad) was active in the fight against Grindlewald. If the whole of the Potter clan was involved in that (and other things that happened in WWII) then it wouldn't be surprising if some of the elder Potters and Evans' (as they were Muggles) died during WWII. There also may not have been many Evans' left due to the high death rate of soldiers during WWI.
I've gotten the idea that James' dislike of the Dark Arts is something that was "in his blood". (I'm at work and the books are at home or I'd cite passages. Primarily, I'm thinking of the conversation between Harry, Remus, and Sirius via Floo in OotP.) If one comes to school disliking something as much as we are told James disliked the Dark Arts, then I tend to think that it is something one learned at home, from his parents.
What if all of the Potters had a bit of a "saving people thing" which have lead to early demises? We don't know how old James' parents were. They could easily have been in their late 30s/early 40s when Sirius came to live with them, if they fell in love and had James as soon out of Hogwarts as James and Lily had Harry. The elder Potters could have been young enough to have been in the thick of things in Voldie War I (ala Arthur and Bill Weasley this time around) or old enough to have participated in the Grindlewald problem and James was a child of their older years.
It's also not that unusual to have branches of family trees to dwindle out. I look at my own family tree and am amazed that between my mother's and father's siblings (mom had 3; dad has 1) I have only 3 first cousins from my mother's sister. One aunt and both uncles have not had children. Perhaps something similar has happened in Both the Potter and Evans families.
Y'all take care!
*michelle the librarian**
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Solitaire - May 3, 2005 10:18 am (#470 of 565) Reply
Michelle, your mention of WWII--not to mention WWI--could well account for a slim family tree in many Wizarding families. Because both wars were fought on European soil, the casualties were HUGE in both wars. Certainly entire family lines of Muggles were wiped out.
I realize that Wizards seem to be less susceptible to dying from some of the more mundane things that kill us Muggles. Still, the Wizarding World had no trouble believing (erroneously) that Peter had died in an explosion caused by Sirius. This makes me think that there are some Muggle accidents which can probably be fatal to Wizards, as well. I'm willing to bet a bomb might be one of them.
Besides all of this, we must remember that Grindelwald was active during the time of WWII, as Michelle mentions above. So this war could have been going on "in the wings" while the Muggle world fought the WWII we all know. Indeed, it does seem that many could have died during that time. We do know that James's and Lily's parents were alive at the time of the last VWar, so they would not have been casualties; however, other generations might have been.
Solitaire
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Finn BV - May 3, 2005 12:37 pm (#471 of 565) Reply
Edited May 3, 2005 1:42 pm
This whole deal with Muggle wars and 1945… it makes sense as the reason why Harry's grandparents aren't living, but can you imagine JKR making this the actual explanation which people will read in a book? Think about it, people who read the books are not going to remember what year DD defeated Grindlewald, if they even remember who Grindlewald is. I mean, when I read CoS for the first time, never did it occur to me "Oh, it's 1992 because NHN died in 1492 and it's his 500th death day party!" People who don't read this forum or go to the Lexicon will have no idea what this is all about. I think we have to think practically about the "less-informed" crowd.
Do we even know anything about G? I checked the Lexicon and all it says is that "some have speculated that G and Hitler are the samer person, or G is at least related to the events of World War II." DD might briefly explain to us, but how is this going to relate to the end effects of the book?
Edit: I notice that this thread is about Harry's Family and not the end of the books, but this explanation is just getting way too over over the top. No offense to the originator, but as I said, we have to think, Is JKR going to write in a book that the reason Harry's grandparents are dead is this?
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Round Pink Spider - May 4, 2005 1:26 pm (#472 of 565) Reply
It's an interesting thought, Michelle and Solitaire, as far as Grindelwald goes... And also it certainly is possible that some of them might have been killed in WWI or WWII. I have no idea how much bombing went on in southern Wales. Do either of you?
Fbv, I could see JKR connecting it, although I'm not claiming she will. First, she doesn't write to please the less-informed crowd. She writes what she likes and what makes sense to her. (She's said this herself.) Second, she's old enough to at least have heard parents and relatives talking about WWII, and the aftereffects of the war made themselves felt far more and for far longer in England than in the USA. However, I will grant you this much: I can't remember right now any case in which she's openly connected events in her stories with real-life events in our world. She's kept the Muggle world and our history pretty separate in the text.
That said, she does put in a lot of references connecting her world to literature, mythology, and real history, references that the average person off the streets never follows up. Also, as Harry grows up, her stories have been gradually changing from "fairy tale" to "real life." (She's also mentioned this as deliberate on her part.) So will she step over the boundary and hook up with real events? Could happen. But if it doesn't, I think it'll be because she wants to keep the Wizarding World and the Muggle World separate, not because of what the less informed crowd knows or doesn't know.
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vball man - May 5, 2005 9:12 pm (#473 of 565) Reply
I've been contemplating the idea of a WizWorld connnection with muggle WWII.
The connection between Grindelwald's death and the end of WWII is quite easy, by the way. Check Dumbledore's chocolate frog card.
Anyway, I think that Grindelwald may have been involved in WWII, but I don't think that he had a big part. At least he didn't cause it; and I'm sure that JKR won't say that WWII didn't actually happen the way history records it and that the whole thing is simply a story to explain a lot of deaths to muggles. I just don't see her trodding on the memories of heroic soldiers.
I think that Voldemort is more powerful than Grindelwald was. Voldemort didn't cause a world war. I don't think that any significant fighting was going on in Europe in the 70's, was it?
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Professor Harte - May 12, 2005 5:56 pm (#474 of 565) Reply
Round Pink Spider: I was thinking a lot about your theory, then came over this passage from OOTP Hardback edition page 173 last night: Moody is showing Harry at picture of the original OOTP and points out Frank and Alice Longbottom. Harry stares at Alice and gets a sick feeling and thinks "he knew her round, friendly face very well even though he had never met her, because she was the image of her son, Neville".
So doesn't really help your theory...
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Solitaire - May 14, 2005 8:04 am (#475 of 565) Reply
Edited May 14, 2005 9:05 am
Part of Dumbledore's closing speech at the end of GoF included the following comment: "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great. We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust. Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open."
In the seventies, wasn't Eastern Europe beginning to experience some political upheaval? Pehaps it was not full-scale war, but a lot of what had been going on prior to that time--when Tom Riddle/Voldemort would have been gathering strength the first time--might be tied to what we grew up calling the Cold War. Also, remember that war was going on in Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, etc.
If I remember correctly, the "feelings" that seemed to pervade the world at that time would certainly seem to be feelings of discord and enmity. Yet in the eighties, as we move away from Voldemort's first "vanquishing," countries began to break free. The Berlin Wall fell in the late 80s ... It may be a big reach, but I suppose that could be tied to the same kind of stuff with Voldemort, couldn't it?
Sorry if this does not seem to belong here. I was responding to Vball man's post. If a monitor wants to move it to a more appropriate thread, please do so.
Solitaire
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Round Pink Spider - May 16, 2005 7:52 pm (#476 of 565) Reply
Edited May 16, 2005 8:53 pm
It seems that JKR finally answered the big question, 2 months before the release date.
No, it looks like Neville isn't Harry's twin.
Yes, it appears Harry is a king.
JKR's response:
“To recap: Neville was born on the 30th of July, the day before Harry, so he too was born 'as the seventh month dies'. His parents, who were both famous Aurors, had 'thrice defied' Voldemort, just as Lily and James had.
...In choosing which boy to murder, he was also (without realising it) choosing which boy to anoint as the Chosen One – to give him tools no other wizard possessed – the scar and the ability it conferred, a magical window into Voldemort's mind.
...So where does this leave Neville, the boy who was so nearly King?”
Does this mean that Harry and Neville are cousins, albeit perhaps distant ones?
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Professor Harte - May 17, 2005 12:29 pm (#477 of 565) Reply
No --- I don't think they are cousins and I don't think Harry will be King in a completely literal sense (i.e. King Harry). I think the whole delicious answer from JKR just explains how destiny slapped one boy on the forehead and it might as well have been the other boy except for the particular choice that LV made. This decision (pick the Half Blood over the Pure Blood) set fate into motion and both boys are connected in that the current fate of one might just as well have been the fate of the other. I think she clearly teases us with the point during the chase scene in the OOTP when both boys handle the orb.
That said --- still appreciate you going out on a limb with a theory.
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Round Pink Spider - Jun 17, 2005 6:58 am (#478 of 565) Reply
It's time for my usual comment -- based on the solstice theory at the beginning of the thread, watch for the door to open on the Summer Solstice!
Order of the Phoenix -- released on the Summer Solstice
Release date of Half-Blood Prince -- announced on the Winter Solstice
The Solstice actually occurs at 6:46 AM GMT (Greenwich time), 1:46 AM EST (2:46 AM right now on Daylight Savings). I didn't check on the Winter Solstice to see if it opened at the moment of the solstice, or just on midnight of the solstice.
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Steve Newton - Jun 17, 2005 7:32 am (#479 of 565) Reply
Edited Jun 17, 2005 8:55 am
Something juicy. You mean, of course, a recipe for pumpkin juice.
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HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 21, 2005 12:49 pm (#480 of 565) Reply
Edited Jun 21, 2005 1:50 pm
I just reread your theory and have some questions to work out.
If Neville is the twin and the Longbottoms know, then, it makes sense to me that DD also knows. Could this be why the Longbottoms never recovered? There were hints in the book that some patients are being watched, as when Bode was strangled by the Devil's Snare. I'm not saying DD did that, but he may want to keep Neville's identity a secret until Big V has been dealt with and is keeping the Longbottoms at bay - maybe he chose Harry or saw something in him as an infant. My only question is, most people know when they are carrying twins and such news often travels quickly, so how could Lily have kept this a secret?
My take on the story of Percival was that Harry was Percival, the Fisher King was DD and Gawain seems to parallel Ron.
I keep thinking back to how DD is looking tired and old as representative of the great pain.
My thoughts seem to be going in circles, now.
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Blast - Jun 21, 2005 7:28 pm (#481 of 565) Reply
Just to flip the time turner back a bit, the Mirror of Erised showed Harry only what his heart desired. Even though his parents were accurately shown, all the other relatives may be just made up by the mirror just to show Harry what he wants to see. The other point is Crevy Castle. If I am not mistaken the name was Crecy and the castle was near Normandy. The book A Distant Mirror is about one of the Crecys in the start of the Hundred Years Wars. He was a vassal of the king of France but was also the son in law of Edward the III of England.
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Round Pink Spider - Jun 24, 2005 9:42 am (#482 of 565) Reply
HH11, actually I don't think DD knows. The moon in the book is a very versatile symbol of knowledge -- with crescent moons representing clues and half-moons, like Dumbledore's glasses, representing half the truth. It appears that there's something about which DD only knows half the truth, and that's what I think it is. I can't imagine DD keeping the Longbottoms as they are to keep Neville safe in any case. I think, though, that it's just barely possible that Neville's grandmother may know.
The hints we've been finding seem to indicate that Neville is actually being protected by being kept in ignorance of something, whatever it may be, and it's something which his mother might be trying to warn him about. She may be just cognizant enough to know that Neville is in danger, without understanding that warning him may place him in even greater danger.
As far as carrying twins, without ultrasound it's much more common to have twins unexpectedly. My aunt gave birth to twins unexpectedly when I was 5. They were on top of each other, so the doctor only heard one heartbeat.
Blast, you are correct that the Mirror of Erised shows the heart's desire, but it would be no harder for a magical object to show images of his real family than "made-up" images.
As for the Crecys, as far as I can tell, the Chateau de Crecy is near Chartres, in the Centre region in the Loire Valley, not in Normandy. Chateau de Crevy is in Brittany. I believe that 3 provinces supported William the Conqueror in invading England. Brittany was one. William the Conqueror invaded in 1066. The Battle of Crecy happened in 1346, so as you see they were unrelated. When I did a search on Normandy and Crecy, I came up with nothing, so I think you must be mistaken.
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HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 24, 2005 11:21 am (#483 of 565) Reply
She may be just cognizant enough to know that Neville is in danger, without understanding that warning him may place him in even greater danger.
Forgive my ignorance, but are these the gum wrappers' significance?
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Blast - Jun 24, 2005 6:36 pm (#484 of 565) Reply
I am so sorry, the name is Coucy not Crecy. I must of mixed up the name with the battle, I will now go stick my head in the oven.
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Round Pink Spider - Jun 25, 2005 8:37 am (#485 of 565) Reply
Edited Jun 25, 2005 9:38 am
Forgive my ignorance, but are these the gum wrappers' significance?
HH11, yes, I believe that the wrappers may be a warning. But some of them may also be a plea for help. The reason I believe that finding out the presumed message on the gum wrappers may place Neville in danger is because I found out that vanishing and invisibility represent protection. That would mean that Hermione's revealer (if it revealed hidden messages on the wrappers) would take away protection.
In the UK version, the gum wrappers are called "sweet wrappers." In the symbolic language, this means "revelation of a mental secret." The "mental secret" could be that Neville is under a memory charm, that one or both of the Longbottoms are being kept apparently "insane" by potions, or it could be both. Or it could be something else.
I am so sorry, the name is Coucy not Crecy. I must of mixed up the name with the battle, I will now go stick my head in the oven.
OK, now this time I got something. Yes, there was a de Coucy involved with William, apparently. However, that doesn't affect my original point, that there is a Chateau de Crevy in Brittany. I was merely using this as a point connecting the mouse-like Colin Creevey with the "French" mouse that Alice supposed had come over with William the Conqueror, and which saved Alice from drowning. Jo Rowling often connects her characters with other works of literature, sometimes to provide very subtle clues. It's merely another feature in her wonderful jigsaw puzzle, that you can find bits of it through research.
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HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 25, 2005 11:29 am (#486 of 565) Reply
That would mean that Hermione's revealer (if it revealed hidden messages on the wrappers) would take away protection.
If teeth represent protection and Hermoine's parents are dentists and Hermoine has large teeth, that seems contradictory to the aforementioned.
My original thought (Post 480) was just that and that DD may be the one keeping the Longbottoms under such a potion until this Harry/Big V. situation rides itself out. Not to be evil, but for good cause in his mind - which we haven't been told about yet. I know you stated that he may not know the situation, but maybe the "half truth" represents something else?
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Solitaire - Jun 25, 2005 3:27 pm (#487 of 565) Reply
HH: DD may be the one keeping the Longbottoms under such a potion until this Harry/Big V. situation rides itself out
HH, that would be taking away the Longbottoms' CHOICE in their own fate, and I cannot see Dumbledore doing this, even for their own safety. I do think it is very likely that the Longbottoms are being kept in their current state by someone but for nefarious reasons. I can't believe it would be Dumbledore.
Solitaire
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HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 25, 2005 7:01 pm (#488 of 565) Reply
Edited Jun 25, 2005 8:03 pm
It could go either way. I state this because we've seen DD's less than gentle side, all for the sake of his endeavor.
Sorry for the edit: I don't think it's for their safety. I think it is to keep something from being revealed which would affect Harry, Neville and Big V's fate.
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Round Pink Spider - Jun 26, 2005 6:35 am (#489 of 565) Reply
If teeth represent protection and Hermione's parents are dentists and Hermione has large teeth, that seems contradictory to the aforementioned.
Not at all. Hermione is a protector by nature. It shows in her teeth and in her "bushy brown" hair (bushes and brown are both Protection words). But Hermione wouldn't necessarily realize that her revealer might cause problems. It's convenient for Hermione to have it, because she's the one that usually figures things out. Ironically, although she's a protector, she also reveals a lot of secrets. Hagrid is also a protector, and he reveals a few things too ("I shouldn'a said that...").
My original thought (Post 480) was just that and that DD may be the one keeping the Longbottoms under such a potion until this Harry/Big V. situation rides itself out. Not to be evil, but for good cause in his mind - which we haven't been told about yet. I know you stated that he may not know the situation, but maybe the "half-truth" represents something else?
From the bitterness in his voice when he spoke of the Longbottoms' insanity, I can't imagine that he could have anything to do with it.
I agree with Solitaire that the Longbottoms are probably being kept in their condition for nefarious reasons. We'll find out eventually...
As far as Dumbledore's glasses go, certainly there are other possibilities. I never meant to imply that mine was the only option! It's just one big secret I believe exists that Dumbledore only knows the half of. Again, we'll wait and see.
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HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 26, 2005 6:48 am (#490 of 565) Reply
I had forgotten about the bitterness part in the book. That makes sense.
I agree with Solitaire that the Longbottoms are probably being kept in their condition for nefarious reasons.
Maybe it's Fudge. I remember reading a thread devoted to Fudge's secret, and although it may not be precisely on target, I think there is more to his ineptitude than we now know.
I never meant to imply that mine was the only option!
I think I can "speak" for everyone when stating that when we read these threads, we know they are great ideas in the works with no one intending to be the person who has it right to a "T". After all, we know what kind of baggage goes along with being the "one". LOL
Your ideas (along with many others), are what makes this site so great, so please don't ever hold back. They are well based and lead to interesting theories, many of which may end up correct. My ideas are the only ones that make me cringe. LOL
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Choices - Jun 26, 2005 4:52 pm (#491 of 565) Reply
RPS - "It's just one big secret I believe exists that Dumbledore only knows the half of."
I tend to believe that it is the prophecy and we have only heard part of it. I think there is more to come.
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Round Pink Spider - Jun 28, 2005 2:18 pm (#492 of 565) Reply
That's a very interesting thought, Choices. I think Dumbledore heard all of the prophecy, but perhaps he didn't understand something big about it? That would certainly be possible...
I have been wondering if one (or both) of those prophecies we heard fragments of also apply to Harry. Poor Harry.
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Amaly Hawthorne - Jul 14, 2005 1:19 pm (#493 of 565) Reply
Hi All. I’m new posting but I first started reading this forum with Round Pink Spider’s theory about Harry’s origins. I love the Arthurian legend and RPS's theory and WANT to believe Harry is a noble descendent of the legendary king. One thing that always gives me goosebumps in CoS is the little thrill of sad, sweet music that plays as Harry looks at Godric Griffindor’s name on the sword. It’s the same music that plays as Harry gazes at his parents in The Mirror of Erised in SS. I wonder if this is a movie clue that Harry is indeed a descendent of Griffindor. I know score composers create “theme” music for different characters i.e. Hedwig has her own music. It always moves me when I hear it and I wonder if it is the theme for Harry’s family/ancestors.
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Kip Carter - Aug 2, 2005 10:25 am (#494 of 565) Reply
This thread was closed down during the sixteen day period surrounding the release of Book Six. It is now opened for posts.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 2, 2005 11:23 am (#495 of 565) Reply
Edited Aug 2, 2005 12:56 pm
RPS, I wonder the realization of the relationships at HBP is beginning of the realization of the Holy Grail for Harry. I would assert that Harry's purest desire and the the Holy Grail he seeks is a family. Could the relationship with Ginny mark the final stages of Harry's grail quest.
On another topic is it possible that Remus, Sirius, Neville, and Dumbledore have at various points been a metaphor for the lame Fisher King that is healed and comforted by the Galahad like figure of Harry.
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Steve Newton - Aug 2, 2005 12:54 pm (#496 of 565) Reply
Gee, I'm going to have to read up on King Arthur. I think I'm missing a lot.
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Ponine - Aug 3, 2005 3:58 pm (#497 of 565) Reply
I heard something swooshing by over my head, Steve, but that was about it...
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HungarianHorntail11 - Aug 5, 2005 12:13 pm (#498 of 565) Reply
I'll have to pay closer attention the next time we watch CoS, Amaly. It may have been something the directors didn't realize they'd gotten right for the series, not just this movie. I remember JKR saying something to the extent that she was surprised at how closely the directors came with their guesses regarding things that had not yet been revealed.
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Round Pink Spider - Sep 4, 2005 4:30 pm (#499 of 565) Reply
Hi, Amaly! In case you read this (and after nearly two months, you may not...), I'm glad you enjoyed the theory.
Since reading HBP and JKR's interviews since, I would venture to say that the many royalty references in the books probably have more to do with alchemy than with an actual royal line. JKR confirmed in her interview that Godric Gryffindor is connected with the "Element" Fire in the books. Through alchemy, that would connect his house with Sulphur, which is allegorically depicted as a Red King in a lot of alchemy literature. (And I'm sorry if that just went whistling over someone else's head... We can discuss that aspect of it here, if anyone wants to.)
Jo Rowling has a lot of fun using references to literature to hint at things in her stories. So I think she used the Arthurian references to hint that Harry is a "king" in the alchemical sense. That would connect him with Godric Gryffindor, at least in a symbolic way.
It's unclear at the moment whether there's any actual connection there between Harry and Godric Gryffindor. She shot down the theory that Voldemort wanted to kill Harry's family because he was Slytherin's heir and they were Gryffindor's descendants. I don't know if that eliminates just the theory, or it indicates that they aren't related to GG.
In her answer about Neville's connection to the prophecy, she hinted that Harry is a "king." She hasn't dealt with that topic yet, and she still hasn't told us about Harry's family or in what WAY the prophecy indicated that Harry is a king, metaphorically, literally, or whatever. I know that the majority opinion on the Forum is that it's metaphorical, and in the alchemical sense it might very well be. Personally, I think she's got to bring it into the book, because she bothered to mention princes twice in the book, AND because Snape was called "the Half-Blood Prince."
I can't help feeling that the whole business of princes is a case of "Methinks the lady doth protest too much." In addition to all the throw-away royalty references (like Slughorn never wanting to occupy "the throne" himself), twice she told us that "there are no wizarding princes." (Is that because Harry's a king now, not a prince? ) Then she named Snape's mother "Prince."
Why? Why even bother with the whole "half-blood Prince" thing? Why did Snape bother to call himself that? I'm sorry, but I think our devious author is putting one over on us. Either this is a whale of a red herring, or there's some hint there somewhere.
I don't know if I ever put it on this thread -- I think I did -- but I've been wondering for a year if Snape and James were related (distant cousins, perhaps), and this whole "half-blood Prince" thing was Snape's way of making himself feel better under James' oppression. People hate to hear me say that, but I still think it might be true.
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Veritaserum - Sep 5, 2005 6:35 pm (#500 of 565) Reply
The Princes and the Potters could probably be related. I don't think there are any wizarding families that aren't related to each other. There only seems to be a few wizarding families anyway.
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HungarianHorntail11 - Sep 17, 2005 6:50 am (#501 of 565) Reply
Edited Sep 17, 2005 7:51 am
Hi Round Pink Spider! With regard to James and Snape being related, I guess I can't see DD placing Harry with him, but I thought JKR made it clear that she killed off all of his relatives purposefully so he would have to stay at 4PD.
I completely agree with your post in that either it is a whale of a red herring, or there will be some revelation with regard to kingship - seems to be too much to include for it to be coincidence. I like the Arthur (pulling the sword from the stone) portrayed-by-Harry idea.
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Round Pink Spider - Sep 17, 2005 6:09 pm (#502 of 565) Reply
Hi, HH!
Those were the relatives on his mother's side of the family that could give him protection.
We do know that his grandparents on both sides are all dead, because she felt that it would be literarily convenient to have Harry be an orphan, because it would leave him both alone and free of some of the entanglements that children with parents have. Again, it's pretty conventional for the hero of this kind of story to lose all the people he loves at the beginning of the story.
Harry believes that he has no living relatives, but just because Harry believes it, that doesn't make it so. He's certainly believed other things before now and been wrong.
It's also possible that, whatever makes Harry a "king", it's something that Snape craves. I don't know if it has something to do with family, or circumstances, or bringing the four houses together. But I do know that the Red King is a very important symbol in alchemy. Since JKR has basically identified Harry as a king (symbolic or literal), it makes a certain amount of sense that identifying Snape as a "Prince" would connect him to Harry in some way. If they aren't related by blood, then I would guess that the connection was by ambition. But I think there's got to be some unrevealed significance there. Calling him a "Prince" without more reason than we know about so far just comes across as so pointless...
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HungarianHorntail11 - Sep 18, 2005 7:38 am (#503 of 565) Reply
I see your point and it does make sense. Can you elaborate a bit on the Red King reference?
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RoseMorninStar - Sep 18, 2005 6:50 pm (#504 of 565) Reply
JKR has said several times that there is nothing important about Harry's family but that Dumbledore's background would be a far more profitable line of inquiry. We KNOW that Godric's Hollow is a clue and was not named that by accident. I think Dumbledore sent them there. I think Dumbledore is a descendant of Godric Gryffindor. What significance that will have to the final part of the story is yet to be seen. (can't wait, can't wait, can't wait)
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Nathan Zimmermann - Sep 18, 2005 9:44 pm (#505 of 565) Reply
This raises an interesting point what if the house in Godric's Hollow where the Potters stay actually belonged to Dummbledore?
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Choices - Sep 19, 2005 8:47 am (#506 of 565) Reply
Nathan - I like that idea. Someone mentioned about the Potter's having a portrait in their home of one of the former headmasters - if it was Dumbledore's home, it would be likely he would have a portrait there of a former headmaster - perhaps even Godric himself. I still think that is how he knew what happened the night the Potter's were killed - a portrait reported to him what had occurred.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Sep 19, 2005 9:23 am (#507 of 565) Reply
choices, I posted the same idea here but with a couple of additional thoughts here Nathan Zimmermann, "Godric's Hollow" #174, 19 Sep 2005 10:17 am
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Round Pink Spider - Sep 19, 2005 12:02 pm (#508 of 565) Reply
Edited Sep 19, 2005 1:06 pm
RoseMorninStar, I have never seen a statement from JKR that there is nothing important about Harry's family. I have seen her interview that indicated that Voldemort was not trying to kill James and Harry because they were descendants of Gryffindor, but that's not the same thing. I would be delighted if you would show me where on the Internet she's said that Harry's family is unimportant, though. Personally, just from the fact that she hasn't told us anything about Harry's family, not even what James did as an occupation (except that he didn't need a job that paid a lot, because of the money he inherited), I am still expecting that she's hiding something. She could just be enjoying misleading us, but I think a lot of people would find it quite a let-down if she's held back the information for six books, only to say "Nothing there!" when book 7 comes out. That's sort of the same objection that most people have about Snape and the Half-blood Prince deal -- it seems like there ought to be more to it. It's just too small to name the book for that one minor detail.
That is a very interesting idea, Nathan! I like that! You know, that's the first time I ever heard anyone suggest that Dumbledore's family might have been descended from Gryffindor. (Well, I'm feeling stupid... ) Considering that the two glimpses she gave us of people descended from founders have been less than positive, and knowing what we know about Aberforth, that might fit...
HH, the Red King was one of the more common symbols in alchemy for sulphur, one of the principle ingredients that alchemists believed was used to make the Philosopher's Stone. (Alchemists used allegorical stories to communicate what they knew, so that the uninitiated wouldn't be able to understand. Quite a few of the people and creatures in the book are connected to these allegorical images.) Sulphur was connected to the Sun and the Element Fire.
The other most important ingredient is mercury, often depicted as a White Queen. There are several Red King-White Queen pairs -- Ron and Hermione are one (remember the dream of Ron and Hermione wearing crowns?), and Harry and Ginny are another. James and Lily also sort of fit this pattern. Luna might be another White Queen, since the Moon is connected to mercury in alchemy, but she might also represent Artemis the Huntress, whom I don't believe ever married (Nathan can correct me if I'm wrong ). She certainly fits the image of Artemis, after hunting the Crumple-Horned Snorkacks.
The thing you should be aware of about Harry being THE principle Red King in the story that is that the alchemical allegories usually depict the Red King as dying (usually a fairly nasty death), and then being resurrected. Of course, each of the books has ended with Harry being in a Land of the Dead and dying a symbolic death, so it's possible that Harry's "death" in book 7 will be symbolic again...
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Steve Newton - Sep 19, 2005 12:16 pm (#509 of 565) Reply
RPS, I think that this is what RMS was referring to:
“JKR: No. This takes us into more mundane territory. As a writer, it was more interesting, plot-wise, if Harry was completely alone. So I rather ruthlessly disposed of his entire family apart from Aunt Petunia. I mean, James and Lily are massively important to the plot, of course, but the grandparents? No. And, because I do like my backstory: Petunia and Lily's parents, normal Muggle death. James's parents were elderly, were getting on a little when he was born, which explains the only child, very pampered, had-him-late-in-life-so-he's-an-extra-treasure, as often happens, I think. They were old in wizarding terms, and they died. They succumbed to a wizarding illness. That's as far as it goes. There's nothing serious or sinister about those deaths. I just needed them out of the way so I killed them.”
It is from the Melissa and Emerson interview here:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
In the top third of the page.
She sort of says that Harry's family is unimportant but the examples she uses seem to be more limited than most people are thinking.
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Round Pink Spider - Sep 19, 2005 12:26 pm (#510 of 565) Reply
Edited Sep 19, 2005 1:30 pm
Thank you, Steve.
That reply really only indicates that the reason they died is not significant to the story. They didn't die because Voldemort killed them. The reply doesn't actually communicate anything about his family's occupation, background, or relative importance to the story. She needed them out of the way, so that Harry could be an orphan.
In the next line, she also indicates that it shoots down the "Heir of Gryffindor" theory. Again, that doesn't mean that Harry's family had no significance. It just means that Voldemort wasn't killing James and Harry because they were GG's descendants.
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Steve Newton - Sep 19, 2005 12:28 pm (#511 of 565) Reply
You're right, it is loosely constructed. She was speaking off the cuff but the wiggle room doesn't really rule out too much.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Sep 19, 2005 1:20 pm (#512 of 565) Reply
RPS, you are correct Artemis never married.
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Ana Cis - Sep 19, 2005 3:24 pm (#513 of 565) Reply
Edited by Sep 19, 2005 4:25 pm
RPS, we know that Voldemort killed James because as a member of OotP, he was LV's enemy. LV killed Harry because of the prophecy. However, this is what JKR said in 2004 World Book Chat.
Jami: Is Harry related to Godric Gryffindor? JK Rowling replies -> People are always wondering who Harry might be related to. Maybe he is
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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Nathan Zimmermann - Sep 19, 2005 3:29 pm (#514 of 565) Reply
Ana Cis I believe J.K. Rowling altered her postion since, the WBD chat.
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Ana Cis - Sep 19, 2005 3:32 pm (#515 of 565) Reply
She shouldn't be allowed to do that!!! ;~)
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Choices - Sep 19, 2005 4:57 pm (#516 of 565) Reply
Edited Sep 19, 2005 6:01 pm
I think James was killed for a bigger reason than just being a member of the OotP. Lily was a member and along with James had defied Voldemort three times, and Voldemort felt no compunction to kill her - he did kill her, but just to get her out of the way. He certainly offered to let her live. He came to Godric's Hollow to kill James and Harry - we know why Harry needed to die, and I think we will find out in book 7 why James was marked for death also.
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Ana Cis - Sep 19, 2005 5:08 pm (#517 of 565) Reply
I suspect you're correct, Choices. Unfortunately, we're not given much to go with, except that James was a member of the OotP, and Voldemort meant to kill him as well as Harry.
You know, JKR could be really sneaky about these things. Dumbledore and James may have been related since James is a pureblood and Dumbledore is 150 years old--he could be Harry's great,great grandfather/uncle. However, since it was Harry's mother who sacrificed herself, Harry had to live w/his mother's relatives. So JKR says that it's Dumbledores relations that are significant. Is that a roundabout way of saying Harry and DD were related? I know, I know, it's a wild unsupported guess...but I can fantasize!!
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Round Pink Spider - Sep 20, 2005 7:16 am (#518 of 565) Reply
I suspect it is a fantasy, though, Ana Cis. I too wish they were related, but I can't believe DD wouldn't have told him that once Harry knew why he had to live at the Dursleys. There just wouldn't have been any (obvious) reason not to.
Nathan is correct, BTW; the quote you had was from 2004, and after HBP came out she made a statement that seems to indicate that Harry is not a descendent of GG.
Choices, I agree with you also -- I really think there must have been some additional reason that James had to go. Maybe it had to do with his work; just because it didn't pay very much doesn't mean it wasn't vital to the fight against Voldemort in some way. Maybe he was working to unite the different creatures against Voldemort. That would fit in with Harry's apparent position currently as the one who has to unite everyone against Voldemort. That might explain why we haven't been told anything about James' occupation -- it might give away something about Harry's position in book 7. That would be my guess.
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HungarianHorntail11 - Sep 22, 2005 9:17 am (#519 of 565) Reply
Thanks for the information, RPS.
I agree, Choices, two things defy Big V's premeditated logic. JKR makes a point of saying that 1) James didn't have a choice, he was going to be killed no matter what and 2) Lily did have a choice and didn't have to die. Why must he go after James yet not Lily - they're both Harry's parents, so that can't be the reason.
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Round Pink Spider - Sep 22, 2005 11:43 am (#520 of 565) Reply
Edited Sep 22, 2005 12:46 pm
There's another interesting consideration. James did have to die, so there must be some reason for that beyond his being Harry's father. But Lily was in the way, and he bothered to try to get her out of the way. Since she was obviously being a nuisance, and since Voldemort is not exactly famous for his mercy , he had a reason for wanting Lily alive.
If it had been some reason that was vital to Voldemort, obviously he would have just stunned her or something simple like that, then taken her with him when Harry was gone. So she can't have been important to Voldemort personally. It must have been either that he thought she might be useful in some way, or he'd made a bargain with one of his Death Eaters (Snape? Wormtail?) that he would spare Lily if he could.
I've seen it proposed that Wormtail might have begged for Lily to be spared because he wanted her for himself, but that never held much water for me, because presumably Lily knew that Wormtail was the Secret Keeper. She would have known that he was responsible for the deaths of her husband and son. So I'm wondering if perhaps it was Snape that wanted her spared.
That might even go along with Snape's regret that Harry's parents were killed. Maybe he didn't mind all that much that James was gone, but Lily might be a different story. Look at this quote:
“ES: Was James the only one who had romantic feelings for Lily?
JKR: No. [Pause.] She was like Ginny, she was a popular girl.
MA: Snape?
JKR: That is a theory that's been put to me repeatedly.
ES: What about Lupin?
JKR: I can answer either one.
ES: How about both? One at a time.
JKR: I can't answer, can I, really?”
It really looks like she was dodging a bullet because, for the very next question, she did admit that Lupin was fond of Lily, but would never have competed with James for her.
I know that Snape called her a mudblood and was very insulting to her, but then he had just been humiliated in front of her, and to show gratitude to her at that point would have looked really wimpy, something he was obviously at pains to avoid. And then, she called James some pretty rude things at that time, too. And JKR indicated that she didn't really hate James.
It's an interesting thought.
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LooneyLuna - Sep 23, 2005 3:53 pm (#521 of 565) Reply
RPS, I've had that whole Snape-Lily thought as well. I think it was Snape's Worst Memory because he lost Lily that day, not because James pulled a Levi-Corpus on him. I don't think Lily and Snape dated, but I do think they were friends, perhaps "that awful boy" that told Lily about the Dementors was Snape and not James.
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Round Pink Spider - Sep 23, 2005 6:41 pm (#522 of 565) Reply
That's an interesting thought, LooneyLuna. I don't think Lily was the sort of person that goes around picking enemies, like James. Since they were both good at potions, they might have known one another, and been friends, or at least acquaintances. They were obviously both in Advanced Potions.
It's also possible that he "watched her from afar", as it were, and wished he was the sort that would have a chance with someone like her. On the "Snape's Worst Memory" thing, it might have even been the opposite -- that might have been the day that he realized he wanted her as more than just an acquaintance. But he never would have stood a chance with James around. Another reason to resent James...
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HungarianHorntail11 - Sep 23, 2005 6:55 pm (#523 of 565) Reply
Edited Sep 23, 2005 7:56 pm
I had a thought that I posted on the Snape thread regarding Snape's Worst Memory, which was that James was ruffling his hair and showing off in hopes of attracting Lily's attention, which lead me to believe he had not yet worked up the nerve to speak to her. This encounter with Snape brought her over and, although it was not a pleasant first encounter with James, it gave them an initial contact and conversation. In other words, it is when they first "met". Whether Snape admired her from afar (I think this may be so, RPS) or was just friends with Lily, I can imagine that his reaction when she and James started dating was to the tune of, 'oh no, anyone but James', and it all started that day . . .
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Round Pink Spider - Sep 23, 2005 10:07 pm (#524 of 565) Reply
Quite possible, HH11. It'll be interesting to find out...
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i spy - Sep 25, 2005 5:52 pm (#525 of 565) Reply
I wonder if Harry and Weasleys are related, and I cannot think of the fact that in small communities, and the wizarding world happens to be one, is forbidden to date and marry relatives closer than seventh grade. Or, Harry ends up with Ginny, and the fact that she is the first girl to be born in the Weasleys family for seven generations is making the relation safe and genealogically legitimate to pursue (as opposed, the Gaunts, with their unhealthy habit of marrying their cousins, are bearing crazy and violent descendants). And, one can read Potter as pOTTER, just kidding...
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Round Pink Spider - Sep 25, 2005 6:06 pm (#526 of 565) Reply
Are you saying that he "otter" be careful about marrying her?
Seriously, though, I have speculated in the past that the Potters and the Weasleys might be related, so I could hardly disagree with you. I wouldn't be at all surprised. But then (as people are always pointing out), JKR has told us that all the pureblood families are interrelated, and we now know that James was a pureblood.
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me and my shadow 813 - Oct 4, 2005 9:37 am (#527 of 565) Reply
Edited Oct 4, 2005 10:40 am
Hello, i wanted to provide an answer to "are DD and Harry related"...
I read on JKR's website - she says no they are not related because if they were then Harry would have stayed with DD after James and Lily were killed (he needed a blood relative's protection).
So it seems that Harry's bloodline was somehow wiped out with the death of James. We have a gaping hole when it comes to James's father, mother, granny or anyone really, or have i overlooked something?...
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LooneyLuna - Oct 4, 2005 9:58 am (#528 of 565) Reply
Edited Oct 4, 2005 11:01 am
As I understand it, Me & my Shadow, Petunia is Lily's only living relative, and since the blood protection comes from Lily's sacrifice, Harry had to stay with a relative on Lily's side (Petunia).
We know that James' parents are dead and that James was an only child; it is a reasonable assumption that Harry has distant relatives on James' side, we just don't know who they are (Great Uncles/Aunts, Cousins once/twice removed, etc).
We know that both Molly and Arthur are distantly related to Sirius. Not something the Weasleys were, er, willing to admit when Sirius was in Azkaban.
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me and my shadow 813 - Oct 4, 2005 10:02 am (#529 of 565) Reply
Edited Oct 4, 2005 11:07 am
Thanks for your reply. I think it's important that JKR plainly stated that if DD was Harry's grandfather then Harry would have gone to live with him instead of Petunia.
To quote JKR: "If DD had been Harry's grandfather, why on earth would he have been sent to live with the Dursley's?"
It's in page 2 of 'rumours' section on [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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RoseMorninStar - Oct 4, 2005 12:38 pm (#530 of 565) Reply
JKR has cut off most of the interesting discussion about Harry's ancestors. She has said that Dumbledore's ancestry would be an interesting line of inquiry however...
LooneyLuna- (your quote): As I understand it, Me & my Shadow, Petunia is Lily's only living relative, and since the blood protection comes from Lily's sacrifice, Harry had to stay with a relative on Lily's side (Petunia).
I think it is going to be very important in the next book to realize that the blood/family protection came from some ancient magic that Dumbledore invoked... it is not the same protection that Lily afforded Harry with her (sacrificial) death. Lily's protection came from Love.
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LooneyLuna - Oct 4, 2005 2:03 pm (#531 of 565) Reply
We know that since Voldemort took Harry's blood, Voldemort can touch Harry, where he couldn't before. Dumbledore says that Harry's blood is something special. Dumbledore's spell expires (for lack of a better word) when Harry turns 17. I agree with you, RoseMornin, that Lily's love/blood protection is different from Dumbledore's spell, but Dumbledore couldn't invoke the ancient magic without Lily's sacrifice.
I fully expect some sort of DE/Voldemort assault on Privet Drive on Harry's birthday in Book 7. Then Pet can show some extraordinary magic to protect IckleDuddykins and Vernon. She'll scrub those DEs until they are raw. SCOURGIFY!
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Ana Cis - Oct 4, 2005 6:03 pm (#532 of 565) Reply
I personally feel that JKR tricked us with her answer to the question about Dumbledore being a relative of Harry's; I don't believe anyone caught her bluff. If Dumbledore was related to Harry in his mother's side, her answer would have been correct. However, if Dumbledore is related to James side, Harry would still have had to live w/the Dursley because it was Harry's mother's blood due to her sacrifice the protected him. Not James' blood.
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Round Pink Spider - Oct 6, 2005 4:10 pm (#533 of 565) Reply
Edited Oct 6, 2005 5:15 pm
You could be right, Ana Cis. Generally, though, when JKR has answered questions in a way that could be considered devious (like this one), it's turned out that the simple, straightforward interpretation has been the right one. When she's hiding something, she usually changes the subject or refuses to answer. I have been tracking a number of her "devious" answers very carefully for several years. Changing the subject is usually the best indication that she's being devious. She did that when someone asked if Snape was a half-blood. She said that obviously he wasn't a muggle-born, because he'd been a Death Eater -- then she changed the subject to a different issue about Snape. (By the way, she did something similar when someone asked if Snape had ever had romantic feelings toward Lily. So be deeply suspicious. )
LooneyLuna, I agree with everything that you said. And I can't wait to see what Voldemort has done to himself by using Harry's blood... I'm also kind of expecting the DEs to show up at Privet Drive at 12:00:01 on July 31. And like you, I'm expecting to see some magic from Pet. Can't wait!
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RoseMorninStar - Oct 7, 2005 7:50 am (#534 of 565) Reply
Edited Oct 7, 2005 9:04 am
Ok, I'm going to go off on a wild idea tangent here so, I am sorry if it doesn't make total sense (as it's not supposed to make total sense!) Just throwing ideas out there to see what we come up with. I'm warning you in advance.
I changed some of my own thoughts and perceptions as I researched this post!
There are a couple of points that are interesting to explore about Lily's sacrifice and Dumbledore's protection charm and Petunia's acceptance of Harry.
- One, Dumbledore must have cast his charm almost immediately and because someone surviving the AK had never happened before, I am not so sure anyone realized what happened or just how Harry survived-or what protection he had from Lily. It is interesting to note that someone had to have been there and told Dumbledore what had happened and that Harry had indeed been AK'd.
- Two, Dumbledore put his faith in Lily's blood through Petunia. JKR has said that Harry was well protected until the end of GoF...until Voldemort used Harry's blood in his rebirthing ceremony. If Dumbledore's charm worked off of the same 'magic' as Lily's, then Harry would not have continued to have Dumbledore's protection until he was 17 either (it would seem)..the one where Dumbledore placed faith in family and was 'sealed' by Petunia's acceptance of taking Harry in.
- Three, If the protection afforded Harry was tied in with Lily's sacrifice and therefore Dumbledore's charm had to be invoked on the blood of Harry's mother's family (Lily) What about the other side of the family? This is a very interesting point brought up by Ana Cis, what if Dumbledore's ancestry is tied up somehow with the Potter side of the family? We all know JKR words things very carefully so I went on a troll again. Dumbledore did say (my emphasis): She gave you a lingering protection he never expected, a protection that flows in your veins to this day. I put my trust, therefore, in your mother's blood. I delivered you to her sister, her only remaining relative."
This is almost enough proof to allow me to think that Dumbledore's charm did work off of Lily's sacrifice. (but it makes me wonder about point #2)
Wouldn't it be a kicker if Dumbledore were some great, great Uncle of Harry's or something!...because now, Voldemort would not only have Harry's blood flowing in his veins...he would also have Dumbledore's blood in his veins. Interesting thought.
Then, if my suspicions are correct, (I think Dumbledore is a descendent of Gryffindor) then Harry would be too. JKR has been a bit coy about this. When asked in one interview (these are not direct quotes) she said, 'Maybe he is'. But when asked in another interview if a comment she made shuts down the idea that Harry is the heir of Gryffindor she says, '[Pause]Yeah, well - yeah.'(Although I cannot figure out what part she said to make the interviewer come to that conclusion, except that she said that Harry's grandparents background is more 'mundane' territory). In another interview when asked if Dumbledore was Harry's grandfather she said, 'Then why would he have been sent to live with the Dursley's! Well, I suppose if it required a blood relative of Lily's, maybe that's why. Even if Harry is not a blood descendent of Gryffindor, Dumbledore may still consider him to be a 'spiritual' heir of the Gryffindor spirit.
I don't know, what are your thoughts?
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HungarianHorntail11 - Oct 7, 2005 8:49 am (#535 of 565) Reply
The only input I can give to your point #2 is that the blood protection is not as cut and dry as Big V thinks it is. (i.e., just because he can touch him, he thinks he's mastered it.) This may play out as another of Big V's oversights that could be costly to him.
With regard to DD's ancestry, it has been toyed with and JKR's evasiveness can be perceived as a nod in this direction. I am still on the fence about this, however. Perhaps I am hoping for a really good reason to bring this about. I am not trying to be argumentative, but it seems to suffice that Harry is in Gryffindor house. The only way (that I can envision) this would be beneficial to Harry is if DD could reveal some blockbuster from the original argument between SS and GG.
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Ana Cis - Oct 7, 2005 7:37 pm (#536 of 565) Reply
Rose, On point 2, I thought that the charm Dumbledore put on Harry only protected him while he was staying inside Privet Drive. If he was outside of the house, he could be harmed. That's why in OotP, he kept getting messages not to leave the house. It's also the reason that Dumbledore had Harry closely watched so that nothing would happen to him whenever he left the house. The reason Harry was no longer as well protected after GOF was due to LV returning back to his body and getting his powers back, making him a greater threat against Harry.
As far as the blood protection, you may be interested in what in posted in Harry's Blood and Harmony thread: Ana Cis, "Harry's Blood and Harmony" #53, 7 Oct 2005 7:54 pm
Are you using Legilimency on me?
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Veritaserum - Oct 7, 2005 9:36 pm (#537 of 565) Reply
But Ana Cis, didn't Dumbledore say that as long as Harry went to Privet Drive at least once a year, the protection would work? That's why Harry has to go there only one last time. I think the OOP "don't go anywhere" business was just to keep Harry from doing anything rash.
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HungarianHorntail11 - Oct 8, 2005 5:54 am (#538 of 565) Reply
I thought GoF was a shining example of just how well protected Harry is. Being in the throes of DEs and Big V on an otherwise deserted graveyard and not only coming out of it alive, but able to fulfill someone's dying wish (Cedric's) was quite a feat he didn't seem to achieve by himself without help. So, I guess we ought to reevaluate the word "protection".
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Ana Cis - Oct 8, 2005 7:40 am (#539 of 565) Reply
Edited by Oct 8, 2005 8:41 am
OotP37, p. 836, U.S. Ed. "...Her blood became your refuge. You need return there only once a year, but as long as you can still call it home, there [my emphasis] he cannot hurt you..." Voldemort says something similar in GOF 34, p. 657, U.S. Ed.
I understand this to mean that Harry is only completely protected within Privet Drive.
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HungarianHorntail11 - Oct 8, 2005 8:01 am (#540 of 565) Reply
I hope I understand your point, Ana Cis, but then why couldn't Quirrell touch Harry outside of 4PD?
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Choices - Oct 8, 2005 8:22 am (#541 of 565) Reply
I agree with Ana Cis - I think he is only protected by the charm Dumbledore did when he is inside the house at 4 Privet Drive. As to why Quirrell couldn't touch him, I think that is because of the love within Harry. Not really anything to do with Dumbledore's charm.
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RoseMorninStar - Oct 8, 2005 4:52 pm (#542 of 565) Reply
Edited Oct 8, 2005 5:57 pm
Oh...I dont' know... maybe I am a legilimens...
I am not quite sure WHAT to think! I am pretty sure however, that the reason Quirrelmort couldn't touch Harry was specifically because of Lily's protection being in his very skin. Once Voldemort overcame that protection by using Harry's blood in his rebirthing ceremony, he only had Dumbledore's 'back-up' charm that worked through family ties & blood...sealed by Petunia's agreement. Now, whether or not that only protects him precisely at number 4 privet drive is a good question. If that were so..you would think that Harry wouldn't have been allowed to go anywhere.. Especially places like the Hogwarts express..where Death eaters would know exactly where and when Harry was there. Or into Hogsmeade. Or to the Weasley's. Dumbledore must have all of Britain 'charmed'!! Maybe it works in a range..sort of like, the closer he is to number four privet drive, the more protection he has. Because, otherwise, it seems they wouldn't be concerned only that he return there for a short while...but that he stay there as long as possible. This could be one of those things that may not have a solid answer.
I will have to ponder on this some more. In the meanwhile, I will have to check out Ana Cis' post in "Harry's blood and Harmony'.
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Ana Cis - Oct 8, 2005 7:02 pm (#543 of 565) Reply
Thanks, Choices, for confirming my understanding of those statements.
Rose: "If that were so..you would think that Harry wouldn't have been allowed to go anywhere.. Especially places like the Hogwarts express..where Death eaters would know exactly where and when Harry was there. Or into Hogsmeade. Or to the Weasley's. Dumbledore must have all of Britain 'charmed'!!"
You're closer to the truth than you may have realized. This is what Dumbledore said in OotP37, "I defy anyone who has watched you as I have—and I have watched you more closely than you could have imagined—"
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Round Pink Spider - Oct 9, 2005 6:44 pm (#544 of 565) Reply
Edited Oct 9, 2005 7:57 pm
This whole protection issue is really very interesting. For what it's worth, I think there are two different kinds of protection at work, both based on Lily's sacrifice, but entirely different in nature.
I would guess that Harry's protection at Privet Drive is on the house. When Petunia brought Harry into the house, I think she sealed a magical agreement a little like the magical contract with the Goblet of Fire. That agreement finished Dumbledore's charm that prevents Voldemort and his Death Eaters from entering the house as long as she allowed Harry to stay under her roof. Not even by the most powerful magic can Voldemort break into that house while it belongs to Petunia and Harry is there... until midnight, July 31st, when Harry turns 17. Then the charm is broken. (Like a lot of people, I wouldn't be surprised if DEs show up at 12:00:01...) That charm was based on Lily's sacrifice, but it's not the same "protection" that is in Harry's skin.
I think the instructions for Harry to stay in the house were to keep him as safe as possible, because nothing evil can enter the house to harm Harry (probably including dementors). That presumably is why Fudge and the Ministry were so flustered when Harry ran away from home in PoA. Harry had left the house, which (they thought) was all that was protecting Harry from a homicidal maniac on the loose. The "house" protection is general, against anyone or anything harmful. Remember that Dumbledore said that he was also concerned about protecting Harry from the Death Eaters, many of whom were almost as powerful and dangerous as Voldemort.
The protection in Harry's skin seems to have been placed there simply by Lily's sacrifice. I believe that the protection in his skin is only against Voldemort! Quirrel was hurt because he was sharing his soul with Voldemort. I base this on the fact that others have physically attacked Harry, but they haven't suffered the same effects. A DE in the Dept. of Mysteries was strangling him. The basilisk sank a fang into him. The grindylows were pulling at him under the lake.
If the protection in Harry's skin only protected him from Voldemort, then it's pretty much neutralized now. I think that's the most likely case. Otherwise, NOBODY would be able to touch Harry with the intention of killing him (except Voldemort), and NOBODY would be able to use the Killing Curse on him (except Voldemort). That doesn't make a lot of sense, because we would have seen more evidence of it by now.
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sstabeler - Oct 10, 2005 8:56 am (#545 of 565) Reply
on the subject of lord voldemort turning up a second past midnigkt on july the 31st in book 7, given that usually that would reference to a second into the day, when we do not know if it stops on harrys birthday, or at midnight on harry's birthday, meaning he is protected on his birthday too, that could turn out to be lord voldemort's greatest mistake.
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Round Pink Spider - Oct 11, 2005 10:52 am (#546 of 565) Reply
Dumbledore was pretty clear that the protection does not extend through Harry's birthday. It ends the second he becomes a man, that is, when he turns 17. The charm doesn't seem to take into account that Harry might have been born some time during the day on the 31st. DD's words seem to indicate that the protection ends on his birthday, not the day after his birthday. And the way that Harry counted down the minutes to his birthday in SS/PS certainly seems to indicate what moment JKR considers it Harry's birthday: midnight.
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haymoni - Oct 11, 2005 10:57 am (#547 of 565) Reply
Edited Oct 11, 2005 11:57 am
How is Harry going to make it down the front walk???
Perhaps the Twins will send him a Shield Cloak.
He could put on the Shield Cloak and put his Invisibility Cloak on over that.
He could hide behind Vernon as he leaves for work.
That should cover him sufficiently!
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Round Pink Spider - Oct 11, 2005 12:32 pm (#548 of 565) Reply
I visualize the DEs destroying Privet Drive, and Harry, Ron, and Hermione having to rescue Vernon, Petunia, and Dudley. Harry will have to take them with him to Godric's Hollow (or maybe Grimmauld Place -- bwah-ha-ha-ha!). The three of them will be forced to confront magic and live with it, and they'll have to live on Harry's charity.
Let's see how they like it...
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Steve Newton - Oct 11, 2005 12:42 pm (#549 of 565) Reply
I think that if I were Harry I'd skulk out the back door about 11:30 or so.
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Round Pink Spider - Oct 11, 2005 2:23 pm (#550 of 565) Reply
Ah, but remember, he can't use magic until he's 17... He'd be defenseless if Voldemort caught him outside the house before he was 17. At least at 12:00:01 he'd be able to defend himself.
If I were in the Order, I'd send some people to make sure he's safe.
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Steve Newton - Oct 11, 2005 4:31 pm (#551 of 565) Reply
Ah, the ambush theory. I like it.
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Ana Cis - Oct 11, 2005 6:58 pm (#552 of 565) Reply
Edited by Oct 11, 2005 8:01 pm
Round Pink Spider – When you mentioned Ron and Hermione coming to his rescues, I thought that some of the Order would be there to protect him also. We'll be reading about some very exciting as well as entertaining situations in Privet Drive considering that the Dursleys hate any use of magic around them. Can you imagine what it will be like if there's a magical battle around them. Vernon may rupture something from an apoplectic fit. They won't be able to face their neighbors. I would also enjoy reading about their stay in 12 GP if their house gets destroyed.
On slight change of topic. Will Harry learn about some negative aspects to James past in school when he goes to Godric Hollow or when he goes back to Hogwarts? I wonder it that will be some of the difficult experiences JKR referred to for Book 7?
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HungarianHorntail11 - Oct 12, 2005 2:11 pm (#553 of 565) Reply
RPS, I actually thought Harry would sneak off and hide the Dursleys at the Burrow - there are just not enough people residing there already - but I like your idea much better (or maybe Grimmauld Place -- bwah-ha-ha-ha!).
Ana Cis, do you have a quote regarding JKR's references to Book 7 and the difficult experiences? I guess I am not caught up on all of her interviews.
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Round Pink Spider - Oct 12, 2005 3:23 pm (#554 of 565) Reply
HH, remember that Vernon was so interested to hear that Harry had inherited a house...
What a great image: the Dursleys faced with the troll's leg umbrella stand and Mrs. Black...
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Ana Cis - Oct 12, 2005 5:09 pm (#555 of 565) Reply
Edited by Oct 12, 2005 6:10 pm
HH11 - She didn't actually say difficult experience, but an "extremely and torturous and winding journey," in my view, equates to experiencing difficult/daunting journey.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
MA: Here at the end you sort of get the feeling that we know what Harry’s setting out to do, but can this really be the entire throughline of the rest of the story? JKR: It's not all of it. Obviously it's not all of it, but still, that is the way to kill Voldemort. That's not to say it won't be extremely and torturous and winding journey, but that's what he's got to do. Harry now knows — well he believes he knows – what he’s facing. Dumbledore's guesses are never very far wide of the mark. I don't want to give too much away here, but Dumbledore says, ‘There are four out there, you've got to get rid of four, and then you go for Voldemort.’ So that's where he is, and that's what he's got to do.
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HungarianHorntail11 - Oct 12, 2005 6:10 pm (#556 of 565) Reply
Thanks so much, Ana Cis!
RPS, JKR could have some fun with that!
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haymoni - Oct 13, 2005 3:49 am (#557 of 565) Reply
There was some other quote about which character she would like to be or something and she said somthing along the lines of Harry not liking her because of all that she is going to put him through.
I can't remember WHEN that quote came out - was it before OotP for example.
Was the "all she is going to put him through" losing Sirius, losing Dumbledore or is it something more? Or is the task of finding the Horcruxes going to be the terrible thing?
If so, Harry won't need a dementor to drive him insane.
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muggle born - Oct 15, 2005 12:43 am (#558 of 565) Reply
I think Harry will find a tapestry of his family tree at Godric's Hollow. He will turn out to be related to Dumbledore on his dad's side and maybe even Dumbledore's portrait to help harry on his way and give him more information. (anything is possible)
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Vaughn - Oct 26, 2005 4:20 am (#559 of 565) Reply
I just wanted to say that this is a great thread, and I am now really excited for a possible battle at Privet Drive. I loved the ministry battle in OOTP, and was kind of sad not to see any of that really cool magic in HBP. A battle at Privet Drive would give some opportunity for that type of magic to be used again. Unfortunately DD won't be there to do the coolest stuff. It would be great to get an in depth description of Hagrid in a massive fight just beating on death eaters, forget the wand just tear 'em limb from limb.
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Choices - Oct 26, 2005 11:42 am (#560 of 565) Reply
Edited Oct 26, 2005 12:43 pm
I think the book at 12 Grimmauld Place - the wizarding geneology - will prove useful and interesting. Why Hermione wasn't curious to read that book I don't know - guess it just wasn't the time for them to discover certain things. I would think it would hold information about the Potters and Dumbledore's family, the Peverells, etc. Wish I could read it myself!!! It just might answer a lot of questions.
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LunaLovegood - Nov 7, 2005 11:45 pm (#561 of 565) Reply
Hi Denise P. Can you please let us know where you got that info cause it’s from a site I’ve desperately been searching for! Thanks!
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Finn BV - Nov 8, 2005 9:08 am (#562 of 565) Reply
LunaLovegood, you would be better off to ask Round Pink Spider, because it is really her theory. Denise P., a host, started the thread, but she simply reposted the information that RPS had posted somewhere else.
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LunaLovegood - Nov 8, 2005 2:18 pm (#563 of 565) Reply
Thanks Finn
Is there any way I can send her a pm or should I just post in this thread? Sorry Im new to all this - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Choices - Nov 8, 2005 6:25 pm (#564 of 565) Reply
Luna - I think if you post in this thread RPS will see it. :-) BTW - welcome to the forum. You'll get the hang of it in no time.
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Finn BV - Nov 8, 2005 7:04 pm (#565 of 565) Reply
I'm sure she'll see it, Luna, but if for some crazy reason she doesn't – you can always send people mail at their worldcrossing email. So she is [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], you are [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], and I am [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]. Sometimes the messages are forwarded to their email, whether it is hid or not, but other times you actually have to go to worldcrossing.com to check it.
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