Death Eaters

Potteraholic Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:13 pm

This topic serves as an archive of a thread from the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum as hosted on World Crossing, which ceased operation on April 15, 2011. It was copied/saved by Lady Arabella and reformatted/reposted by Potteraholic. ~Potteraholic

Sharon Peach - Oct 9, 2003 5:32 pm
Edited by Kip Carter Nov 17, 2005 3:52 am

I thought I would post a comment that the Lexicon does not have on its biographies. I am fairly sure that Rowling named the Death Eater Wilkes after John Wilkes Booth, the assassin of president Lincoln. Has anyone thought of this?

Also, Rowling mentioned in interviews that the Death Eaters used to call themselves the Knights of Walpurgis. This is undeniably similar to the former name of the Ku Klux Klan, the Knights of the White Camillia

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Potteraholic Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:18 pm

Madame Librarian - Oct 9, 2003 7:41 pm (#1 of 800)

Sharon, I think it's "Walpurgis." That's the name given to an ancient spring festival (originally called Beltaine) that was changed to Walpurgis Night when Christianity was displacing the old pagan religion. Walpurgis derives from the name of the saint Walburga. I did a Google search for Walpurgis and ended up here

Ciao. Barb

popkin - Oct 10, 2003 8:02 am (#2 of 800)

I would really like to like Snape, but I'm afraid JKR is setting us up for a big disappointment in his regard. I'm afraid Sirius was speaking very truthfully when he said no one ever leaves the Dark Lord's service - they either serve 'til their death, or die trying to leave (paraphrased).

...he was murdered by Voldemort. Or on Voldemort's orders, more likely, I doubt Regulus was ever important enough to be killed by Voldemort in person. From what I found out after he died, he got in so far, then panicked about what he was being asked to do and tried to back out. Well, you don't just hand in your resignation to Voldemort. It's a lifetime of service or death. (OotP US p112 ch. 6)

There is speculation that Regulus Black did not really die, but no proof.

Also, Karkaroff was trying to run away from LV, but we don't know if he was successful. And, even if Karkaroff were able to evade LV's presence, wasn't he ultimately "serving" LV in the way that he ran Durmstrang? It was like a DE military school - a training ground for dark arts experts.

Other than Snape, are there any Death Eaters who were successful in turning away from Lord Voldemort's service?

fidelio - Oct 10, 2003 8:07 am (#3 of 800)

Bagman? Assuming that he really was a DE, and not just a tool, per his hearing.

Madame Librarian - Oct 10, 2003 8:34 am (#4 of 800)
Edited Oct 10, 2003 9:35 am

Thanks, popkin, for incorporating my Regulus comment with this re-posting.

Perhaps, there are characters to be introduced in the future that are ex-DEs, but on the lam, laying low so to speak. They may or may not be helping the Order, but they've broken it off with V. Here's where it gets tricky because we don't have a clear sense of the numbers of DEs or the full size of the Order. If the DE membership is larger than those we've met so far, it may be possible for an ex-DE to elude V. at least for a while.

There is the possibility that with DD's protection, an ex-DE could survive.

Ciao. Barb

popkin - Oct 10, 2003 9:40 am (#5 of 800)

That's a good point Madame Librarian. Dumbledore is definitely protecting Snape. Maybe he is helping others as well.

Fawkesy Lady - Oct 10, 2003 10:23 am (#6 of 800)

Reading through the Lexicon, it says that Nott successfully avoided Azkaban but did attend Voldy's rebirthing party.

zelmia - Oct 10, 2003 10:54 am (#7 of 800)

That's because he was the Executioner for the Regulation and Control of Magical Creatures (Amos Diggory's office).

Hem Hem - Oct 10, 2003 11:01 am (#8 of 800)

The executioner's Macnair, I thought....

mischa fan - Oct 10, 2003 11:17 am (#9 of 800)

The executioner is Macnair, and he was one of the ones that came to Voldemort in the cemetery, Voldemort talks to him something along the lines of, "They tell me you execute animals for the Ministry of Magic, I will find you something better to execute."

zelmia - Oct 11, 2003 11:05 am (#10 of 800)

Oh yeah. Right... Well, I have a question: I have always assumed that the Death Eaters were only those who were summoned to the graveyard at the end of GF. I thought that the actual title of Death Eater refers to that select group of elite Voldemort followers (Malfoy, Lestrange, Crouch, etc.) - but not to every single person who joins forces with Voldemort. Is that right?

popkin - Oct 11, 2003 4:30 pm (#11 of 800)

I don't think its ever been explained. Someone, I think maybe it was Karkaroff at his trial, says that nobody knew who all the Death Eaters were. They were kept hidden from one another to reduce the risk of a traitor turning them all in.

Madame Librarian - Oct 12, 2003 10:13 am (#12 of 800)

Zelmia, the question you asked about the DEs (Death Eaters. i.e., what is the extent of the membership; are all who side with V. considered DEs?) is sort of what I was trying to get at when I raised the issue of how the "war" is fought in the WW. If the DE gang is like the Order, I suspect it, too, is an elite group of V. supporters, that does not include those that just think V. is on the right track "politically" for lack of a better term. We can make a very close analogy to Nazi Germany here.

I wonder how one is recruited or forced to join. Does V. look for those with an inclination to evil and some good wizarding skills?

Ciao. Barb

Blast - Oct 12, 2003 10:36 am (#13 of 800)

Now that the big V is back will we see new Death Eaters? I think that with Umbridge we have a good candidate. Big V tells Harry in book one that there is no good and evil just power and those who seek it. If Fudge now shuffles Umbridge to the side, she may just go over to Voldemort. I think that Fudge picked both Percy and Umbridge because they both will go along with anything to get this power. We also have ten years that Voldemort was out of circulation. In this time I am sure that the DEs that walked free have been quietly making notes on who they could recruit if Voldemort did return.

megfox - Oct 12, 2003 4:20 pm (#14 of 800)

Another thing that we have to consider here is whether or not Voldemort knows that Snape has left him? Does he know that he was spying for Dumbledore? I know that there are theories out there on the comments that Voldemort made in the graveyard about "one who has left me forever, yadda, yadda", that this is Snape and he will be killed, but this is not confirmed and we don't know what Voldy knows about Snape. To me, it seemed as if Regulus was dumb enough to say to someone in the Death Eaters, "hey, ya know, this just isn't for me anymore, so I'll see you later," and was therefore ultimately punished for his lack of loyalty, but I have a feeling that Snape has never let anyone on the "other side" know that his loyalties have changed. The way that Lucius Malfoy relates to Snape through Draco I think is a good example of this.

Blast - Oct 12, 2003 12:59 am (#15 of 800)

I was wondering will we see any new Death Eaters ?

Joost! - Oct 12, 2003 2:02 am (#16 of 800)
Edited Oct 12, 2003 3:03 am

I think this question is better suited for the "Death Eaters" thread: Sharon Peach "Death Eaters" 10/11/03 5:30pm

But I think we will...

Blast - Oct 12, 2003 10:37 am (#17 of 800)

I am sorry that I missed that posting. Thanks

PackinMama - Oct 14, 2003 11:28 pm (#18 of 800)

I am wondering if there is an age requirement to join the Death Eaters, like there is in The Order of the Phoenix? If there isn't then blokes like Draco could join up while still at Hogwarts, thus helping to fill the void left by his dad. And this could bring up who back in the time of the Marauders could have been working for Voldemort.

Susurro Notities - Oct 15, 2003 7:04 am (#19 of 800)

The young have historically been used to fight, think American Revolution or suicide bombers (Just examples I am not equating them). Draco may join up but he would be a poor replacement for his father.

Gina R Snape - Oct 15, 2003 9:21 am (#20 of 800)
Edited Oct 15, 2003 10:23 am

I suspect there are levels of involvement. Anyone who volunteers to join the Dark Lord would call themselves a Death Eater. But that does not mean they get the dark mark and to be part of his inner circle (invited to the 'parties' and such).

If Draco et al. do sign up in his service, they may be "junior" members with full rewards and benefits (as it were) upon graduation. Otherwise a kid might not be able to finish school and it is in the Dark Lord's benefit to have fully trained witches and wizards in his service. Not to mention it is in his interest to have some of his own inside the walls of Hogwarts.

On that note, Snape is in my opinion clearly playing the double agent role. In other words, I firmly believe the Dark Lord thinks Snape is a loyal Death Eater, deliberately placed inside Hogwarts as a spy. Little does he know that Snape has switched sides, and is spying on him, not on Dumbledore.

I also think that anyone who is doing work for Voldemort but is not doing so voluntarily (e.g. blackmail, torture), would not be called a Death Eater by the Dark Lord or his followers, but might be called one by the Ministry if they tried to convict.

Grant the Great - Oct 15, 2003 7:57 pm (#21 of 800)

I love this thread!!! I think that the DEs have--like Gina said (my brother used to call me Gina, just because he needed some girl name to call me that started with "G"? Sorry, just a tidbit!)--different levels of . . . OK, not "activity," I think there's a better word. I think that once you join the DEs you're IN. No escaping, you're in. Of course, it's easier for a new member of a cult to go "inactive," as it were, than the president. I hope you get my drift. It's kinda like the movie "The Skulls." If you haven't seen it, it's good. OK, more thoughts later!

shepherdess - Oct 16, 2003 5:44 am (#22 of 800)

Grant,

Could the word you're looking for be "rank"? Perhaps the Death Eaters are the "officers" in Thingy's "army", and there are other supporters with varying degrees of rank?

Madame Librarian - Oct 16, 2003 6:32 am (#23 of 800)

I would imagine that V. wants only skilled Wizards surrounding him as his close cohorts in the DE. Other Wizards who may support him, but are not particularly talented or devious serve him by just staying out of his way and not opposing him openly (again, think Nazi Germany with the DEs comparable to the SS). There may be some people who are lousy fighters as it were, but have connections, money, knowledge, etc., and these he would use as needed. I don't see V. forming any really permanent, unbreakable attachments with anyone. If you're no longer useful or become a hindrance, you're outta there.

Ciao. Barb

popkin - Oct 16, 2003 6:56 am (#24 of 800)
Edited by Oct 16, 2003 8:02 am

That doesn't account for Crabbe and Goyle being present in the circle in the graveyard in GOF. They are almost certainly something like their sons in intelligence and cunning (or lack thereof). Maybe the DEs in the circle are those considered to be the most loyal to LV? Or, maybe they've been in the organization the longest? Or, maybe they're the ones with whom LV feels most powerful? Maybe LV just has a certain rapport with that group, and likes having them around - each for his own function (some to think of good evil plans, some to make fun of and kick around, lots of "yes men", etc...).

shepherdess - Oct 16, 2003 7:17 am (#25 of 800)

I was thinking maybe he chooses those he thinks will be the most loyal (only to be proven wrong is some cases). Or maybe those that have done something to "prove" themselves to him. But I think it more likely that he chooses each one for individual reasons/what he can get out of each one, similar to what Barb said.

As for Crabbe and Goyle, the only thing I can think of is they might make good pawns to do jobs that no one else wants or don't require brains/subtlety/finesse.

Gina R Snape - Oct 16, 2003 7:56 am (#26 of 800)
Every operation needs its henchmen. Just like with Draco, I'm sure Crabbe and Goyle Sr. provide the brawns in absence of brains, with no moral compulsion to object.

Madame Librarian - Oct 16, 2003 8:15 am (#27 of 800)

Yes, I think "brute force/unquestioning loyalty" as far as Crabbe and Goyle are concerned; a few types like that would be useful. I also think V. would not want too many very intelligent DEs around him. It's always risky when your 2nd-in-command or trusted advisors are smarter than you are.

Ciao. Barb

Peregrine - Oct 16, 2003 8:57 am (#28 of 800)

Something struck me when I was plowing through the Snape thread, but it seems more fitting here.

There was some talk (a million posts back) about how long Snape had been a DE--if he had been recruited right out of Hogwarts or from within the school. Given the time frame he would have roughly three years to join, realize his mistake, repent and turn spy--which seems unlikely but could possibly happen. But what about Regulus? He was younger than Snape (assuming Snape and Sirius were the same age), so even if he was just a year younger, he would’ve had only two years to come to the same conclusion as Snape. From what Sirius said about his brother, ‘he got in so far’, it makes it sound like Regulus was a Death Eater for some time. This leads me to believe there was some sort of propaganda being spread around Hogwarts. And an opposite movement was probably being spread on the Order’s side as well (much like the DA), which pushed just-graduated Marauders and co. to join the Order right out of school.

Who knows, maybe the same thing is happening at Hogwarts now... an underground movement opposite to the DA.

Gina R Snape - Oct 16, 2003 5:44 pm (#29 of 800)

We should remember that there seemed to be heightened activity around the time of the Potters' deaths. Perhaps Regulus got recruited right out of school, and quickly rose to the inner ranks, owing to the death or imprisonment of other DEs. Thus, he got in too deep too fast and was knocked for a loop emotionally, physically and mentally.

With that said, the whole notion of a recruitment force, the Death Nibblers, and so on is very plausible. There is not, however a recruitment effort for the Order. The DA was a student-formed group which became a happy coincidence for Dumbledore the scene in his office against Fudge, when he left the school.

Hem Hem - Oct 16, 2003 9:01 pm (#30 of 800)
Edited Oct 16, 2003 10:01 pm

I've had a few burning questions about what exactly makes up Voldything's plan for Wizarding domination and the structure of his minions:

How many Death Eaters are there in total? The rebirthing party had only about two dozen. But we know that Voldemort's full-form army is much larger, after all, "He's certainly not going to try to take on the Ministry of Magic with only a dozen Death Eaters." --OotP Ch. 5, US p.93. Who else is going to join, exactly, that would significantly raise this figure? And do these additional members qualify as "Death Eaters?" We know that Regulus Black, who wasn't a highly regarded supporter, was given the "DE" title....so does every person in league with Voldy get the title? And if they do, where are the rest of them?

While we're pondering numbers, how many Death Eaters ended up in Azkaban? Azkaban is a huge jail, after all, if we take Hagrid's assessment of the place more or less at face value. "Long as they've got a couple o' hundred humans in with [the Dementors], they don't give a damn who's guilty and who's not." --PoA Ch11, US p. 221. Who are all these criminals in Azkaban? If there are more than a hundred of them, how many are petty criminals? Are the rest of them Voldemort supporters? Then again, if they did an offence worthy of Azkaban, wouldn't they be a top tier-DE? It has always seemed like the lesser supporters aren't 'worthy' enough to fulfill the Dork Lard's important tasks....

Basically, Voldemort is going to need an army of hundreds to make up the war that is coming. Are we still going to know every DE by name? Where are these people going to come from? And will there be another Azkaban breakout, featuring more Voldy-supporters? Or will all of the reinforcements come from Imperius-Victims?

Weeny Owl - Oct 16, 2003 9:38 pm (#31 of 800)

I don't have my copy of GoF with me, but after the rebirthing and sometime around when Harry and Voldie began dueling, Harry was thinking about what spells he could use, and thought about "Expelliarmus," but said something such as "being outnumbered thirty to one" it wouldn't do him much good to deprive Voldie of his wand.

Whether it's a dozen or thirty, you're right, Hem Hem... Voldie is going to need a lot more of a force.

He might have some potential Death Eaters in fairly recent Hogwarts graduates such as Marcus Flint. Sirius (I think so, anyway) said something about Voldie having his spies in the Ministry, so aside from Umbridge, there are probably a few sympathizers. There's no way of telling who might be lurking in Knockturn Alley as a sympathizer. Then, of course, there's Durmstrang... he would probably have quite a few supporters from there.

Hem Hem - Oct 16, 2003 9:43 pm (#32 of 800)

And the interesting thing is that Voldy's current game plan is to gather up as many supporters as possible before executing his goals of Wizarding Domination...through bribery and trickery. So it almost seems as though the majority of Voldemort's supporters are unwilling supporters....

Weeny Owl - Oct 16, 2003 9:51 pm (#33 of 800)

Hmmm... excellent point, Hem Hem. Sirius mentioned something about not being able to trust other witches and wizards because of the bribes, blackmail, and Imperious Curses.

Susurro Notities - Oct 17, 2003 7:15 pm (#34 of 800)

There may be loads of DEs but only the select get in the inner circle. Hitler had many SS members only a few were in the inner circle: "SS Reichsfhrer Heinrich Himmler was head of the entire Nazi police force including SD and the Gestapo, he was Minister of the Interior and commander of the Waffen SS and the Home Army..." "Adolf Eichmann...oversaw the deportation to the concentration camps and his efficient organization rounded up and transported millions to their deaths at infamous camps..." "Reinhard Heydrich was one of Hitler's most ruthless Nazis and second in importance only to Heinrich Himmler in the Nazi SS organization and the principle planner of the Final Solution. There was even talk of his one day succeeding Adolf Hitler." There were several other officers who must have lead many of SS middle management men who in turn lead the average cop or soldier. (check [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

The names of Hitler's (Voldemort's) inner circle are common knowledge. We do not know the names of all those who served as SS (DEs)

Hitler also had a youth organization: "Boys at 10, joined the Deutsches Jungvolk (German Young People) until the age of 13 when they transferred to the Hitler Jugend (Hitler Youth) until the age of 18." [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

If Voldemort's world is like Hitler's there are lots of DE members and a very active youth recruitment effort.

schoff - Oct 17, 2003 9:26 pm (#35 of 800)

Maybe there was a youth recruitment effort when Voldie was first rising to power. The kids who joined then would be adults now. Maybe that's how Malfoy, Bellatrix, Snape, etc first got involved.

Madame Librarian - Oct 18, 2003 5:11 am (#36 of 800)
Edited Oct 18, 2003 6:12 am

This relates to discussions earlier about how many followers V. has. I was listening these last few days to the OoP tape (US), and was on chapter 5 yesterday where Sirius and Lupin answer Harry's questions after dinner at 12GP. Here's what Sirius says when Harry asks what V's been up to after his re-birth.

Well, firstly, he wants to build up his army again, said Sirius. "In the old days he had huge numbers at his command; witches and wizards he'd bullied or bewitched into following him, his faithful Death Eaters, a great variety of Dark creatures. You heard him planning to recruit the giants; well, they'll be just one group he's after. He's certainly not going to try to take on the Ministry of Magic with only a dozen Death Eaters." (Italics mine.)

This, to me, is canon proof that the DEs are now and were an elite corps of small numbers. We will never be sure of what "huge numbers" means until it is explained in future books or JKR is asked at an interview. It is also canon here that most followers (non-DE variety) did not join V. willingly. Here's a quote from a page or so later:

He tricks, jinxes, and blackmails them. He's well-practiced at operating in secrecy....

Since we're speculating about numbers and armies and such, I thought it would be helpful to have the actual quotes about now. That's all.

Ciao. Barb

Susurro Notities - Oct 18, 2003 5:25 am (#37 of 800)
Edited by Oct 18, 2003 6:27 am

In the old days he had huge numbers at his command...his faithful Death Eaters

Madame Librarian, thank you for the quotes, I think they fit with what I had written earlier. The DEs are a few select like the SS officers and the rest of the followers are the underlings, important for their numbers but not select, comparable to Gestapo or Hitler's army.

Madame Librarian - Oct 18, 2003 1:02 pm (#38 of 800)

OK, I'm into careful re-reading of things now since I am currently listening to OotP. With our current discussion in mind of the number of DEs and the size of the Order, this bit stood out (US version, chap. 9 "The Woes of Mrs. Weasley, starting pg. 173) where Moody is showing Harry the group photo of the original Order, and he runs down the names of the people in the Order and what happened to them.

By my count he lists 22 including Wormtail, so that number is canon. For the sake of argument let's call it 25 to account for some who weren't in the photo (on duty, as it were, already dead, and the like). As this whole scene makes Harry uncomfortable, he comes up with an excuse to go upstairs to finish packing, so maybe there are a few that Moody never got a chance to mention; let's add 5 more. That brings me to 30 + or - a few.

Just a page or so later in that chapter (pg. 177, US) Molly is having hysterics over the Boggart she can't deal with. Lupin tries to reassure her about the Order being able to better handle the DEs this time around. Here's the quote:

... I can't promise no one's going to get hurt, nobody can promise that, but we're much better off than we were last time, you weren't in the Order then, you don't understand, last time we were outnumbered twenty to one by Death Eaters and they were picking us off one by one.... (Italics mine.)

So, if the ratio was 20 to 1, then 30x20=600. Were there 600 Death Eaters? Was Lupin just grabbing a number to make Molly feel better? If there really were 600 or so, do we still consider this an elite corps? It's more like a small army to me, but what do I know. Were there that many during VWI and now they are dispersed or dead? Is the current number of 12 DEs (based on the GoF graveyard scene) all that are left? Now that we have some actual facts and figures (if we take them to be reliable based on my presentation) how does that change our thinking?

I'm still processing this. What do you folks think?

Ciao. Barb

schoff - Oct 18, 2003 1:59 pm (#39 of 800)
Edited by Oct 18, 2003 3:04 pm

The Unofficial Guide has a picture of the positions of the DEs as the authors think Harry described it in the graveyard.

1. Voldemort mentioned 9 by name (Wormtail, Lucius, 2 Lestranges, McNair, Crabbe, Goyle, Nott, Avery).

2. He then mentioned 6 more, not by name (including Crouch Jr, and possible "Karkaroff" and "Snape" plus 3 who are now dead--Rosier, Wilkes and someone else). So the mentioned total = 15 (currently down to 12).

3. We also know that Rookwood, Jugson, Dolohov, Mulciber, Rabastan and three others (one was probably Travers--mentioned in Karkaroff's trial) should have been at the graveyard, but were in Azkaban with the Lestranges (OoP article states 10 escaped--the Lestranges, Dolohov, Rookwood and 6 others).

4. We also know Regulus Black was a DE.

Known DEs (in service during VWI):

Wormtail, Lucius, 2 Lestranges, McNair, Crabbe, Goyle, Nott, Avery, Black, Crouch, Karkaroff, Snape, Rosier, Wilkes, Rookwood, Jugson, Dolohov, Mulciber, Rabastan, Travers. That's 21. (Note: This does not account for the possibility that Bagman is also a DE.)

Unknown DEs that we know must exist:

One dead, unaccounted for. Two more in Azkaban breakout. That's 3 more, so 21+3=24 so far.

Estimated Remaining DEs:

What the Guide points out, though, is that Voldemort in two different spots did not pick people out individually. After passing Lucius (and the Lestranges) he then "spoke to some and passed others" bringing him to Macnair. Now, several of these might have included the gaps caused by the other DEs in Azkaban (definitely Rookwood and Travers). It could be argued that Mulciber, Jugson, and Rabastan were at the graveyard, just not mentioned. (If that's the case, then we have an additional 3 more people escaping from Azkaban that we don't know about which would then put the known DE total to 27.) I'm betting though, that there were more people in those gaps that Voldie passed over without mentioning. How many exactly is unknown. Harry estimated 30 bodies, but only 7 bodies were mentioned (see #1--the Lestranges don't count since they were in Azkaban). If Mulciber, Jugson, and Rabastan were also at the graveyard, that still leaves 20 more bodies left unaccounted for! Just how big WAS that circle???

Okay, now even I am getting lost with the Head count! Ugh, right now I'm sticking with the minimum 24 and I'll figure out the rest of the numbers later! Unless someone else can do it for me!

Ladybug220 - Oct 18, 2003 8:14 pm (#40 of 800)

I thought Rabastan was Rudolphus (?) Lestrange's brother and that he was in Azkaban with Bella, Rudolphus, and Crouch Jr.

schoff - Oct 19, 2003 2:15 am (#41 of 800)
Edited by Oct 19, 2003 3:28 am

Okay, I’ve worked on it a little more:

Known DEs (in service during VWI): Avery, Regulus Black, Crabbe, Barty Crouch, Jr., Antonin Dolohov, Goyle, Jugson, Igor Karkaroff, Bellatrix Lestrange, Rabastan Lestrange, Rodolphus Lestrange, Walden Macnair, Lucius Malfoy, Mulciber, Nott, Peter Pettigrew, Augustus Rookwood, Evan Rosier, Severus Snape, Travers, and Wilkes. That's 21. (Note: This does not account for the possibility that Bagman is also a DE.)

OoP 25 US 544: ‘...confirmed that ten high security prisoners escaped...’ We know for sure of three of them: Bellatrix, Dolohov, and Rookwood (OoP 25 US543-544). Mulciber, Rodolphus, and Rabastan must have escaped too since they were sent to Azkaban (GF 30 US590 and OoP 6 US114) but were at the DoM during the fight (OoP 35 US788). That makes six out of 10. There are still four more Death Eaters we don’t know about, although I think we can assume that Travers was one of them. This brings the total of known Death Eaters to 24.

Status/Whereabouts of Known Death Eaters at the time of Voldemort’s rebirth:

DEs in Azkaban/Not at Graveyard:
• Antonin Dolohov (OoP 25 US543)
• Bellatrix Lestrange (OoP 25 US544)
• Rabastan Lestrange (OoP 6 US114)
• Rodolphus Lestrange (OoP 6 US114)
• Mulciber (GF 30 US590)
• Augustus Rookwood (OoP 25 US543)
• Travers (GF 30 US590)

Minimum three more Death Eaters, names unknown.

Dead DEs:
• Regulus Black (OoP 6 112) [Suspected alive, but see this post.]
Evan Rosier (GF 30 US589 and GF 27 US531)
• Wilkes (GF 27 US531)

Ones who should have been at the Graveyard, but were not:

• Ludo Bagman [possible Death Eater, not confirmed]
• Barty Crouch, Jr. [now incapacitated by Dementor’s Kiss]
• Igor Karkaroff
• Severus Snape

DEs at the Graveyard: (GF 33 US648-651)

• Avery
• Crabbe
• Goyle
• Walden Macnair
• Lucius Malfoy
• Nott
• Peter Pettigrew
• Possibility of 23 more, names unknown. (GF 34 US660)

The only Death Eater I cannot account for during the time of Voldemort’s rebirth is Jugson. It is unknown if he was at the graveyard, or in Azkaban.

I’m now up to 47 Death Eaters (24+23=47) and counting...And this doesn’t account for other countries.

Madame Librarian - Oct 19, 2003 5:21 am (#42 of 800)
Edited Oct 19, 2003 6:22 am

Golly, I didn't realize that I was starting a mathematical survey of the DE universe here, but thanks for pursuing this issue, schoff, Ladybug, and others.

Here's the point, though. Whether there were 12 or 47 DEs left by the current storyline (OoP), the important number was the ratio of Order members to DEs. 20 to 1 was what Lupin said. It was just for argument sake that I put the approximate number of the original Order at 30 in order to get an approximate number of DEs. What is it now? What are the odds now? We should be figuring that out. Are there fewer DEs and a larger Order? It's too early for me to delve into that accounting. Is it even possible to get a head count based on canon?

OK, that's the math challenge for the day.

Ciao. Barb

popkin - Oct 20, 2003 7:39 am (#43 of 800)
Edited by Oct 20, 2003 8:41 am

Wow, Schoff! That was great! It sounds to me like Voldemort has enough DEs to do some real damage with. Maybe not enough to get the job done, yet, but he's well on his way.

Peregrine - Oct 20, 2003 12:58 pm (#44 of 800)

Well, since math has never been my friend I’ll just offer this: Maybe Lupin was just lumping all the Voldy supporters in with ‘Death Eaters’. The extra 560+/- people, going by Madame Librarian’s original calculations, could be all the ones who just joined because they were hexed, blackmailed, etc. and it was just easier for Lupin to consider them all DEs than get specific.

Emily - Oct 20, 2003 2:16 pm (#45 of 800)
Edited Oct 20, 2003 3:16 pm

As to how many Order members:

- we've met about twenty of them, said Ron, "but we think there are more...."

If you say that Death Eaters include all those that Voldemort has blackmailed, tricked, and jinxed, plus maybe any goblins, giants, or other creatures he has on his side, around 600 seems possible.

Of course, if it’s only 24 (20 Ron knows+4) x 20 then you only get 480 Death Eaters.

Either way it would be an almost impossible total if Lupin was only including Voldemort's inner circle. (Malfoy, Macnair, Lestrange...)

2nd option: Lupin was vastly exaggerating to make Mrs. Weasley feel better. This does seem more reasonable, doesn't it?

My head's spinning with all the numbers and possible variables.

Hem Hem - Oct 20, 2003 5:07 pm (#46 of 800)
Even though we've seen some canon quotes to back up the idea that the title "DE" follows only the inner circle of Voldemort supporters, I think that many people-- whether for lack of education or for ease of communication-- seem to use the term "DE" for any Voldemort supporter. After all, Regulus Black is labelled a DE, but Sirius also says that he was too out of touch with Voldemort to even be killed directly.

Perhaps I'm taking some logical leap here, but I think Regulus would not fall under the "upper-echelon SS men" category. And if you count the many "Regulus Blacks" into the number, you might a few dozen...imagine that there were 150 Voldemort supporters who were voluntary members (who had not been tricked or cheated to join), who some people would label as DEs but some would say are merely "Supporters." If the numbers came anywhere near resembling this, Lupin's statement is in the realm of being a reasonable exaggeration. After all, if there are 25 of you and some 150 of them, you could say that it's 20:1 and nobody would raise an eyebrow.

schoff - Oct 21, 2003 2:22 pm (#47 of 800)
Edited by Oct 21, 2003 3:46 pm

I was just at a website that listed the total number of European Countries at 44, and the total population at 567,095,995.

Now, before I do the math, I just want to state that I think VWI was not just limited to the United Kingdom, but the Continent as well. Plus, I'm just going to be general with my numbers and not break it down per country.

If Voldie had just 10 supporters in each country: 10x44=440. Not as much as Madam Librarian suggested, but on it's way. Plus, some countries would definitely have more than 10 (especially the UK). That would raise the number up quite a bit.

If just 5% of the European Community was a Voldie Supporter: 0.05x567,095,995=28,354,800. Let me rephrase that: that's over 28 million supporters! That is definitely a higher than 20:1 odds, based on Madam Librarian's numbers. (Note: that's also an average of 644,427 supporters per country: 28,354,800/44) If only 1% of the population were supporters, that still gets you over 5 million (5,670,959 to be more precise, and an average of 128,885 per country).

I envision the original OoP to be an "underground" movement, perhaps just limited to the UK. If the above numbers are anywhere near correct, then I can see the original OoP being outnumbered by the 20:1 odds.

I think the odds have changed for right now because Voldie needs to get his VWI supporters back. There are more numbers of OoP because Voldie's former supporters haven't been supporters for over 12 years, if you get what I mean. Right now, Voldie can only rely on the 40 or so known Death Eaters he's got that are still alive (and loyal).

Hem Hem - Oct 21, 2003 4:47 pm (#48 of 800)

Keep in mind, the WW makes up a very small percentage of the overall population of Europe.

schoff - Oct 21, 2003 10:42 pm (#49 of 800)
Edited by Oct 22, 2003 12:08 am

Very true, Jackie, and I realized this too late to fix it!

New numbers:

Current population of Europe: 567,095,995

If Wizarding Population is 10% of Muggle Population, then there are 56,709,600 wizards (567,095,995*0.10):

# If 10% of Wizarding Population are Voldie Supporters, then 56,709,600*0.10 = 5,670,960 Voldie Supporters

# If 5% of Wizarding Population are Voldie Supporters, then 56,709,600*0.05 = 2,835,480 Voldie Supporters

# If just 1% of Wizarding Population are Voldie Supporters, then 56,709,600*0.01 = 567,096 Voldie Supporters

If Wizarding Population is 5% of Muggle Population, then there are 28,354,800 wizards (567,095,995*0.05):

# If 10% of Wizarding Population are Voldie Supporters, then 28,354,800*0.10 = 2,835,480 Voldie Supporters

# If 5% of Wizarding Population are Voldie Supporters, then 28,354,800*0.05 = 1,417,740 Voldie Supporters

# If just 1% of Wizarding Population are Voldie Supporters, then 28,354,800*0.01 = 283,548 Voldie Supporters

If Wizarding Population is 1% of Muggle Population, then there are 5,670,960 wizards (567,095,995*0.01):

# If 10% of Wizarding Population are Voldie Supporters, then 5,670,960*0.10 = 567,096 Voldie Supporters

# If 5% of Wizarding Population are Voldie Supporters, then 5,670,960*0.05 = 283,548 Voldie Supporters

# If just 1% of Wizarding Population are Voldie Supporters, then 5,670,960*0.01 = 56,710 Voldie Supporters

In my view, even taking the 1% of the 1% (56,710) is a pretty high number compared to the original OoP numbers Madam Librarian brought up. The Order would have needed 2,836 members to get the 20:1 ratio (56,710/20).

Granted, the numbers are a little higher than a count based on Population survey in 1970, but I don't think it would be too much of a difference. The DE numbers would still be high.

The remaining disclaimers in my previous post still stand.

EDIT: I found the current population numbers for the United Kingdom (60,094,648). Maybe that will fit the 20:1 ratio better, but that will be a post for another day.

schoff - Oct 22, 2003 10:59 am (#50 of 800)
Edited by Oct 22, 2003 12:02 pm

Another day:

Current population of United Kingdom: 60,094,648 (Again, please note I am not separating into individual countries)

If Wizarding Population is 10% of Muggle Population, then there are 6,009,465 wizards (60,094,648*0.10):

If 10% of Wizarding Population are Voldie Supporters, then 6,009,465 *0.10 = 600,947 Voldie Supporters

If 5% of Wizarding Population are Voldie Supporters, then 6,009,465 *0.05 = 300,473 Voldie Supporters

If just 1% of Wizarding Population are Voldie Supporters, then 6,009,465 *0.01 = 60,095 Voldie Supporters

If Wizarding Population is 5% of Muggle Population, then there are 3,004,732 wizards (60,094,648*0.05):

If 10% of Wizarding Population are Voldie Supporters, then 3,004,732 *0.10 = 300,473 Voldie Supporters

If 5% of Wizarding Population are Voldie Supporters, then 3,004,732 *0.05 = 150,237 Voldie Supporters

If just 1% of Wizarding Population are Voldie Supporters, then 3,004,732 *0.01 = 30,047 Voldie Supporters

If Wizarding Population is 1% of Muggle Population, then there are 600,946 wizards (60,094,648*0.01):

If 10% of Wizarding Population are Voldie Supporters, then 600,946 *0.10 = 60,094 Voldie Supporters

If 5% of Wizarding Population are Voldie Supporters, then 600,946 *0.05 = 30,047 Voldie Supporters

If just 1% of Wizarding Population are Voldie Supporters, then 600,946 *0.01 = 6,009 Voldie Supporters

Taking the 1% of the 1% (6,009) then the Order would have needed only 300 members to get the 20:1 ratio (6,009/20). In the UK, that is.

Note: Granted, the numbers are a little higher than a count based on Population survey in 1980, but I don't think it would be too much of a difference. The DE numbers would still be high.

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popkin - Oct 24, 2003 7:09 am (#51 of 800)
Edited by Oct 24, 2003 8:10 am

‘The Dementors placed each of the four people in the four chairs with chained arms that now stood on the dungeon floor. There was a thickset man who stared blankly up at Crouch; a thinner and more nervous-looking man, whose eyes were darting around the crowd; a woman with thick, shining dark hair and heavily hooded eyes, who was sitting in the chained chair as though it were a throne; and a boy in his late teens, who looked nothing short of petrified. He was shivering, his straw colored hair all over his face, his freckled skin milk-white.’ GOF US ch30 p594

We know that the kid with straw colored hair is Barty Crouch, Jr. Do we know who the other three DEs are in this scene from the pensieve?

Catherine - Oct 24, 2003 7:37 am (#52 of 800)

In GoF, we can infer the identities of the wizards Harry sees in the Pensieve during Crouch, Jr.'s trial from when Voldemort mentions the Lestranges when he has his Death Eater reunion in the cemetery, He says, "The Lestranges should be standing here" (p. 650 GoF) but they were in Azkaban. Harry sees in the pensieve that they are convicted for using the Cruciatus curse on Frank and Alice Longbottom.

In OotP, Sirius tells Harry that he is related to Bellatrix (obviously the "heavy-lidded" woman he saw in the pensieve), and that Bellatrix, her husband Rodolphus, and Rodolphus' brother Rabastan were in Azkaban while he was there: From p. 114 of OotP, "'Bellatrix and her husband Rodolphus came in with Barty Crouch, Junior,'" said Sirius in the same brusque voice. "'Rodolphus' brother, Rabastan, was with them too.'"

So the Death Eaters are Bellatrix, Rabastan, and Rodolphus.

popkin - Oct 24, 2003 11:01 am (#53 of 800)

Voldemort moved on, and stopped, staring at the space -- large enough for two people -- that separated Malfoy and the next man. 'The Lestranges should stand here,' said Voldemort quietly. 'But they are entombed in Azkaban.'

‘And here we have six missing Death Eaters; three dead in my service. One, too cowardly to return; he will pay. One, who I believe has left me forever; he will be killed, of course... and one, who remains my most faithful servant, and who has already reentered my service.’ GOF US ch33 p651

It's interesting to me that Barty Crouch, Jr. (assuming he is the "most faithful") is standing apart from the Lestranges. I assumed they would stand together in the circle since they worked together interrogating the Longbottoms.

Madame Librarian - Oct 24, 2003 1:30 pm (#54 of 800)

popkin, help, I'm mixed up by your last paragraph. Are you saying that V. should have said "...The Lestranges and Crouch should stand here...." (Death Eaters. i.e., there should be three empty spaces there, and only five in the other part of the circle)?

If that's what you mean, I suppose JKR might have structured the whole circle scene as she did to highlight the last of the 6 missing DEs and to keep us guessing. Did she mean Crouch, there? Or Snape? Or someone else altogether? By putting Crouch next to the Lestranges, she would have missed a chance to torment us with clever ambiguity. (Sigh...)

popkin - Oct 24, 2003 2:47 pm (#55 of 800)
Edited by Oct 24, 2003 3:51 pm

I guess I'm thinking that the three Lestranges would stand in the space which looks big enough for two. A space for three could easily look like a space for two. But Crouch's space is elsewhere (he is the fourth interrogator). Why?

Catherine, I'm sorry for my lack of manners in my previous post. Thank you for filling in the blanks for the identities of the DEs in the GOF pensieve scene.

Catherine - Oct 24, 2003 3:18 pm (#56 of 800)
Edited Oct 24, 2003 4:24 pm

Popkin, no problem for you at all.

I am pleased to be of service. Just call me Winky! Catherine is a good house elf...(I like wine, not butterbeer!)

Everyone laughs at me because I am cursed/blessed with an eidetic memory, which means that for things I like, I am "almost" photographic in memory.

I think the last several posts show that Rowling wasn't quite sure where things might go. The "Lestranges" refer just as well to a couple as well to a married couple plus a brother-in-law.

Perhaps, then, we might wonder, why Rabastan is mentioned so specifically? Or maybe things just run in families. Which makes me think about another topic that doesn't have it's own thread.

Gotta go, and Cheers, like always, Catherine

Gina R Snape - Oct 25, 2003 1:10 pm (#57 of 800)
Edited Oct 25, 2003 2:11 pm

Do the Death Eaters have specific designated places for meetings? I mean, when they are summoned, do they always stand at the same place in the circle? The scene in GoF suggests this, but it is just as likely that people left room for other DEs who then did not show.

Also, while ratio of DEs to Order members might be of some significance, we should also consider that the DEs will be willing to "play dirty" which makes fighting them especially difficult.

Hankie - Nov 4, 2003 11:55 am (#58 of 800)

Hi

Never posted on the lexicon before, I hope this works. I just thought I'd mention an interesting moment I had a couple of days ago. I was flicking through a name meanings book and saw the name Macnair. It means 'son of the heir'. Nearly fell off my chair in excitement, although maybe I'm reading too much into this, but then again, does JK ever do things by accident?

When thinking about what this could mean, I thought maybe 'the heir' could be referring to Voldemort, who is the heir of Slytherin. Maybe Macnair is Voldy’s son? Although, maybe this is a tad ridiculous. Then again, I couldn't help noticing that in GOF when Voldy is going round the Death Eaters, he ticks off all of them for betraying him, even Lucius Malfoy. But he doesn't reprimand Macnair, he just says something like he's going to provide Macnair with better stuff to quench his killer instinct(not actual quote, JK put it much more eloquently, if I can spell eloquently). Maybe this is a sign that Voldy favours Macnair? And of course, Macnair is the one who is sent to visit the giants, a pretty important job. I just wondered what everyone thought about this. Although I'm probably reading way too much into all this, and if someone else posted this message, I'd probably think they were a bit of an idiot. So sorry if this is a load of tripe.

TTFN

Hem Hem - Nov 4, 2003 9:44 pm (#59 of 800)

We all know that JKR never uses a name without some reasoning behind it...thank you for providing the meaning to Macnair's name. If nothing else, it leaves us with something interesting to think about...perhaps he himself is 1/4 giant or something?

Certainly, your post was not a load of tripe. Welcome to the forum, make sure to look around and enjoy yourself as much as possible! Take yourself over to the Kip Carter "-- Tell About Yourself (new)" 11/4/03 6:17pm thread to introduce yourself!

Jackie F

Athena McGonagall - Nov 19, 2003 3:53 pm (#60 of 800)

One who I believe has left me forever - the first several times I read GoF, this didn't make much impact on me, in that I accepted it as fact that he knew one had left him forever. And maybe this belongs on the Snape thread - but I wonder if that's a window of opportunity for Snape to resume his duties as a spy for the Order. Snape is a superb Occlumens, as we know - is he powerful enough to conceal his true motives from Voldemort? And is the mean way in which he treats Harry part of his cover... I don't doubt his hatred of James, but if there were some deeper connection between him and Lily - especially a blood link, but a "hidden" one (maybe through adoption with one of them?) then that would explain some of the ways in which he has aided Harry, albeit grudgingly.

I'm getting a bit obsessive waiting for Book 6...

Lamia Nicolette - Nov 29, 2003 7:13 am (#61 of 800)

There are some things regarding the name 'Lucius' that just plain bug me. First of all: LUCIUS m Ancient Roman, English Pronounced: LOO-shus Roman praenomen, or given name, which was derived from Latin lux "light". Two Etruscan kings of early Rome had this name as well as several prominent later Romans, including Lucius Annaeus Seneca (known simply as Seneca), a famous statesman, philosopher, orator and tragedian. Also, three popes have borne this name.

Three popes!?!?! Also I have seen other translations of the name being "Bringer of the Light" "Light Bringer" (generally meaning the same thing) and "Father of Light".

It makes me think that although Lucius is a DE, his son might refuse. Although this is only my idea and it seems really far stretched to most, but tell me what you guys think alright?

Madame Librarian - Nov 29, 2003 7:49 am (#62 of 800)

Don't forget that the name Lucifer has the same root: lux.

According to my dictionary Lucifer means bringer or bearer of light. Keep in mind that before he fell, Lucifer was God's favored angel who was indeed His right-hand man and light bearer.

Was Lucius at first V's right-hand man? Did he "fall?" What would that mean for a DE? Would a "fall" for a DE mean that he's now a good guy? (Quite a twist, eh?) Or that he's fallen away from V. to do his own brand of evil. Didn't Lucifer try to take charge of things in heaven, and that's why the Boss kicked him out? Is that what Lucius name implies? Aah, more questions that answers as usual.

Ciao. Barb

Edit: I suppose if we get going on Lucius, we should copy and paste these last two to the Lucius thread.

Wendelin the Weird - Dec 28, 2003 10:15 am (#63 of 800)

Just noticing that there was mention by Sirius in GoF that Snape was part of a gang of Slytherins that nearly all turned out to be DEs: Rosier & Wilkes; the Lestranges; and Avery. That seems interesting to me that this was mentioned because in book 5 we see the Inquisitorial Squad of Draco, Pansy, Crabbe, Goyle, etc... Wondering if anyone else thinks this could be foreshadowing a new generation of DEs?

Gina R Snape - Dec 29, 2003 10:34 am (#64 of 800)

Oh yes, Wendelin. We here at the Lexicon Forum have dubbed them the "death nibblers" and I for one completely foresee there being a kind of an underground training up/recruiting ground for new Death Eaters for right after they graduate. Perhaps a "Death Nibbler" club like "Dumbledore's Army" even.

I also think it's interesting that the only thing we seem to hear about Avery in OoP (can't remember anything else) is that he is being punished for giving false information. Could it be that he, along with Snape, defected and is a spy? Or, is at least only pretending to still be a Death Eater? If they were friends, they may have formed a pact together or something. I do suspect there are more than just Snape and Karkaroff among the DE ranks who aren't exactly enthusiastic to still be DEs.

Wendelin the Weird - Dec 29, 2003 1:57 pm (#65 of 800)

I agree, and it was said in earlier books that Avery never admitted outright to being a "Nibbler", but claimed to have been forced into it. (sorry I don’t have a quote - will try to find one) His name keeps popping up but we don’t really get a clear picture about him, perhaps someday he will be seen at Grimmauld Place? (assuming they still meet there after Sirius' death)

Another who was oddly not present at the DoM battle was Goyle... it seemed everyone else was, {although perhaps Voldie had him off trying to get the trolls to join forces with him! HA HAA Him and Marcus Flint's father perhaps - Ron's always saying how trollish they are! Just joking... or am I?! ha ha}

Arrows' Biggest Fan - Jan 26, 2004 9:20 am (#66 of 800)

On various points:

Firstly: 'The Knights of Walpurgis'. In my opinion, JKR does not specifically say that in canon that is what they are called. It could be the name she herself used before deciding on 'Death Eaters'. Looking back over her 'records', she sees the name 'Knights of Walpurgis' (which, when she had written that particular section/essay/500-page description was what she called the Death Eaters) and, as she has forgotten it, says it out loud. This is just my opinion. I may be wrong.

Secondly, on the names of the Death Eaters. I have just been looking at the changes between the American and British editions of OotP on the Lexicon (mainly to see how 'philological' [in the US, 'sorcerers'] was 'translated' - I'm British)and found that one change was 'Algernon Rookwood' (in Britain) to 'Augustus Rookwood' (in the US). As far as I am aware, 'Augustus' is generally used elsewhere, but it's possible that there are two Death Eaters called Rookwood - and the American editors changed the name 'Algernon' because they thought it was a mistake by Rowling.

Thirdly, on wizarding population. Of about 60 million people in the UK and Ireland, more or less 7.5% of the population are aged between 11 and 18 (Hogwarts ages). There are approximately 1000 students at Hogwarts, which equates to only about 13,000 witches and wizards in Britain in total. This would set the entire wizarding population of Europe to around 130,000, and of the world to around 1,300,000. How many of these are Death Eaters I don't know, but it seems from their names that most of them come from countries that speak Germanic languages (Germany, Scandinavia, Eastern Europe, Holland, Austria, and a few others, and, of course, Britain), not the whole of Europe.

Also, on the point of population, Luxembourg would only have about 100 wizards. However, in 'Quidditch Through The Ages' it is referred to as 'a strong Quidditch nation' - but it seems to small to have its own league.

Marie E. - Jan 26, 2004 8:39 pm (#67 of 800)

Another thing I noticed in relation to Goyle not being at the battle: In SS/PS Draco chooses Crabbe as his second for the wizard duel. It could mean nothing or it could mean Draco knows something about the Goyle family as far as loyalties lie.

I suspect I may be reading too much into everything I read.

Mad Madame Mim - Jan 26, 2004 10:32 pm (#68 of 800)

I don't remember Goyle being part of Umbridge's Inquisitorial Squad. Could someone give me some references when the members where mentioned? I read OoP so fast I know missed things.

Also, if I recall in the essay about the Battle at the MoM it mentions that Goyle sr. was not there and Goyle Jr. wasn't on the squad....

I'm all confused now. Sad

fidelio - Jan 28, 2004 2:45 pm (#69 of 800)

Maybe the Goyles aren't as dumb as they look, and aren't as easy to sucker into things as the Crabbes!

Bash - Feb 11, 2004 9:12 am (#70 of 800)

If Hermione's compact caused permanent disfigurement to Marietta Edgecombe, then I hate to think what breaking a compact with Voldemort would do. I expect it really is impossible to renounce him completely.

Psychedelic Enchantress - Feb 12, 2004 3:04 am (#71 of 800)

We still don't know where Karkaroff is. He gave much information about the Death Eaters, remember, and did a runner at the end of GoF. In all likelihood he's been killed (I doubt LV would let him back into the 'inner circle' after such treachery).

Incidentally, the baby-headed Death Eater. How long do you suppose that enchantment will take to wear off?

Bash - Feb 12, 2004 7:39 am (#72 of 800)

Probably till the head matures... but then the body will be decrepit!

virgoddess1313 - Feb 12, 2004 8:34 am (#73 of 800)

That was what I was think would happen. He would continue to age as he is. I didn't get the idea that it was a charm that did that him, though, more like it was time, accelerated inside that jar. But that's another topic entirely. Anyway, I think his days of being useful as a Death Eater are probably over.

rambkowalczyk - Mar 12, 2004 3:32 pm (#74 of 800)

When thinking of people who helped LV, don't forget the giants. Wasn't it said somewhere that their population was significantly reduced during Voldemort’s first reign?

Chris. - Mar 12, 2004 3:51 pm (#75 of 800)

UK Edition, OoP, HAGRID'S TALE, Page 380

...He'd heard o' Dumbledore, heard he'd argued against the killin' o' the last giants in Britain...-Hagrid.

UK Edition, GoF, RITA SKEETER'S SCOOP, Page 382

..While many of the giants who served He Who Must Not Be Named were killed by Aurors working against the Dark Side... Daily Prophet report.

Doris Crockford - Mar 15, 2004 4:06 pm (#76 of 800)

Arrow's Biggest Fan (post 66)- I didn't think the switch from Algernon to Augustus Rookwood is a 'translation'. I have both of those names in my books, Algernon Rookwood in GoF and Augustus Rookwood in OoP, and my books are both the Canadian edition (which I don't think are different from the British except for the publishers). I also think I've heard others on the forum mention this mistake.

Chris. - Mar 20, 2004 12:29 pm (#77 of 800)

I looked up the meanings of both Algernon and Augustus,

Algernon: Originally a Norman French nickname derived from aux gernons "having a moustache".

Augustus: Means "great" or "venerable", derived from Latin augere "to increase". Augustus was the title given to Octavian, the first Roman emperor. He was the adopted son of Julius Caesar who rose to power through a combination of military skill and political prowess. This was also the name of three kings of Poland.

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Chris. - Mar 23, 2004 2:29 am (#78 of 800)

Were the Death Eaters actually called the Knights of Walpurgis or was this a title JK Rowling made before she came up with the current name?

Romana - Mar 23, 2004 4:48 am (#79 of 800)

According to the interview, it was what she was going to call them before she thought up Death Eaters. It is a pity she didn't keep the name, I quite like 'Knights of Walpurgis'.

virgoddess1313 - Mar 30, 2004 9:11 am (#80 of 800)

Death Eaters sounds more sinister, for sure.

Rich - Mar 31, 2004 11:34 pm (#81 of 800)

'Knights of Walpurgis' sounds like some kind of cult, don't you think?

(Just a bit of a side not. I went on that behindthename.com that Kingsley mentioned a few posts back. Check it out, the names in HP must have been researched. But of course we all knew that already.)

Chris. - Apr 1, 2004 10:23 am (#82 of 800)

Walpurgis Night is actually from German folklore. On the night of April 30, witches (and presumably wizards) met on the Brocken mountain and held revels with the Devil.

From that it would have been a great name for them!

Morsmorde - Apr 4, 2004 3:58 am (#83 of 800)

I was thinking about the whole Death Eater and numbers thing the other day and it occurred to me...

How many Death Eater's are there at large since after the battle at the Department of Mysteries? Going by the book and also by the article here at the Lexicon almost all who were present at the battle were caught and sent to Azkaban.

So I was just wondering if anyone out there has ever compiled a list of Death Eater's still at large after OotP.

TomoÈ - Apr 4, 2004 7:02 am (#84 of 800)

Morsmordre! did see who for months! Welcome back ^_^

To answer your question, click here for the names, only three known DE are still at large, but they were thirty at he grave yard, plus the twelve from Azkaban, they should remain around thirty of the old crowd. There could be some new people as well.

Prefect Marcus - Apr 9, 2004 10:11 am (#85 of 800)

Many people question why the Deathmark tattoo isn't used to identify Death Eaters.

I suspect it is like gang-tattoos in the real life. They are a strong indication of being part of a gang, but are not definitive proof.

Hem Hem - Apr 9, 2004 11:35 am (#86 of 800)

Marcus, do you mean that the MoM considers them to not be definitive proof, or that they aren't?

After all, Snape made the Dark Mark sound like a necessary "membership card" for every DE, when he showed it at the end of GoF (chapter 36?). In fact, didn't he show it to Fudge in that scene? If Fudge was watching, then even he would have testimony at this point that the Mark indicates membership.

With the (awful) legal system that the Wizarding World seems to have -- people being punished without being found guilty -- I would be surprised if people looked for greater evidence than that.

Prefect Marcus - Apr 9, 2004 12:51 pm (#87 of 800)

I mean that it is not a definitive proof. Who's to say that Death Eaters don't Imperio somebody into getting the Mark just to spread distrust and suspicion?

Gina R Snape - Apr 9, 2004 6:11 pm (#88 of 800)

See, now, I think only those in LV's inner sanction had the "honour and distinction" of receiving the dark mark. Receiving the Mark is a sign of one's loyalty to LV. He gives it to you and you vow to come to his side for this cause as a pledge. In GoF, he specifically says something about the DEs pledging their eternal loyalty.

Gang affiliation is perhaps the closest we might come by way of comparison. Though I'm not sure if the DEs could be considered a gang when LV's aims are much larger than what gangs aim for.

I can't help but wonder if there is some other kind of initiation ritual besides the conferring of the tattoo.

Dr Filibuster - Apr 10, 2004 2:10 pm (#89 of 800)

I imagine the Dark Mark was inspired by the Mark witches were supposed to have on their bodies.

Suspected witches were examined by their captors...only trouble is nobody knew what it should look like... so any old mole, birthmark, pox mark was taken as "proof".

Gina, I'm sure Voldemort loves all sorts of pseudo rituals and initiations. It would make him feel so important, powerful, feared. It fits with all the "call me Lord" business. Perhaps the Death Eaters enter some magically enforced contract with him?

Mad Madame Mim - Apr 10, 2004 5:12 pm (#90 of 800)

In a word "hazing."

Gina R Snape - Apr 10, 2004 8:54 pm (#91 of 800)

Ok, so, I was rereading GoF last night, where Harry is at the graveyard facing LV and surrounded by the DEs. LV wants to duel with Harry before killing him and makes mention that Harry learned to duel in school. He informs him of proper form and uses Imperio to force Harry to bow.

My question is, how did LV know Harry had learnt this? I am posting it in the DE thread because I assume one of his DEs informed him. But which one? Snape? Wormtail? Malfoy via his son Draco?

The giant squid - Apr 10, 2004 11:24 pm (#92 of 800)

I would have said Malfoy, just because it's the sort of thing Draco would blab about to his father, but in that scene it seemed Lucius was seeing LV for the first time since his return. After all, if Voldie had contact with/access to Mr. Malfoy, why bother with a sniveling worm like Pettigrew?

--Mike

Dr Filibuster - Apr 11, 2004 2:26 am (#93 of 800)

It's either Wormtail, or Voldemort was assuming.

Maybe duelling used to be a set lesson at Hogwarts? Or fourth years would be expected to know the basic rules.

Perhaps Peter told Voldemort if he mentioned Harry was a Parselmouth? Although I like to think Voldie doesn't know about that...and will get a big surprise one day.

Madame Librarian - Apr 11, 2004 4:48 am (#94 of 800)

The whole business of Harry being a Parselmouth is discovered at the dueling club session in CoS, so word of that major a thing must have gotten out to Malfoy (via Draco or even Snape if he simply related to a dueler's parent about the incident). Then Malfoy either contacts LV directly (we don't know how), or in the course of mentioning this to like-minded Wizards involved in intrigues at the MoM, word of the club will have gotten back to LV. If it was Wormtail, he would have heard the boys discussing this later that same day in Gryffindor Tower. I'm assuming he didn't actually attend the session tucked away in Ron's pocket, but I suppose that's possible, too.

Ciao. Barb

TomoÈ - Apr 11, 2004 9:56 am (#95 of 800)

It was written in Rita Skeeter's article, HARRY POTTER 'DISTURBED AND DANGEROUS', two paragraphs about it. Almost everybody in Wizarding World should know by now.

Gina R Snape - Apr 11, 2004 2:38 pm (#96 of 800)

Yes, Tomoe. That's an excellent point. But LV wasn't in his body yet when that article came out. Are we to assume Wormtail read the Daily Prophet to him every day? I'm not saying it's not possible. We don't know exactly what those two got up to while hiding out in Barty Crouch's house (other than torturing Crouch Sr.).

The giant squid - Apr 11, 2004 3:09 pm (#97 of 800)

I could believe that Wormtail (and LV by proxy) were scanning the Daily Prophet and any other wizarding periodicals for stories about Harry. LV seems the type to want to know everything about his enemy. Whether he believes everything he reads or not is up for grabs...

--Mike

DJ Evans - Apr 11, 2004 6:12 pm (#98 of 800)

What about Mad Eye Moody (a.k.a. Crouch, Jr)? During his whole time at Hogwarts, he could have very well learned all about Harry and reported back to LV. Wouldn't there have to have been some kind of communication between LV and Mad Eye Moody? They had to arrange it all about where the Portkey would take Harry, time, etc.... Just a thought there, didn't know if that would have any merit or not.

Later, Deb

Marie E. - Apr 11, 2004 8:19 pm (#99 of 800)

There was communication between Moody/Crouch and Voldemort. There are a few times in GoF where Harry sees an eagle owl flying off and it's mentioned later that Moody/Crouch was using the eagle owl to send messages to Voldemort. Also, the dream Harry had when he sees Wormtail getting punished, Harry rides on the back of an eagle owl. Moody/Crouch alerted Voldy that his father, Crouch Sr., had been killed and Wormtail’s blunder had been corrected. It is not impossible then that other information had been shared.

TomoÈ - Apr 11, 2004 10:20 pm (#100 of 800)

Or Fudge could have refresh Lucius memories some when, or Nott could have tell Voldemort in a almost casual conversation between the DE and Voldie, or anything else.

That could or could not have slip in a conversation or another, but likely a couple of DEs know Harry is a Parselmouth. If Voldemort asked his DE what they know about Harry Potter, he should know, if he didn't, he could know or not.

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rambkowalczyk - Apr 12, 2004 12:22 pm (#101 of 800)

I got a question about the graveyard scene. Voldemort says that there are six empty spaces: 3 dead in my service... Who are the three. I can come up with Rosier and Wilkes who were killed before Voldemort was defeated. The reader would think the 3rd is Crouch's son who died in Azkaban but Voldemort knew that wasn't true; he was the faithful servant. Who am I missing?

dobbyiscool - Apr 12, 2004 1:19 pm (#102 of 800)

Maybe he just said this to keep the DEs from getting suspicious? I honestly haven't the slightest idea. The way they talked about how they caught DEs, I was surprised there weren’t more 'dead in his service.' Unless he just means since the last time they held a little meeting.

rambkowalczyk - Apr 14, 2004 12:12 pm (#103 of 800)

Allow me to elaborate on my question. By the time we get to the graveyard scene in GOF; Lord Voldemort makes the statement about 3 dead in his service and then he goes on to describe three people who are alive but who do not show up. The coward, the traitor, and his most faithful servant. If I were clever reader,(and I wasn't), I would think ok 3 dead Death Eaters: Rosier, Wilkes, ?, and Crouch Jr. Wait that's 4! maybe one of them is alive and might therefore be his most faithful servant. It seems to me that JKR would have left this clue.

Detail Seeker - Apr 14, 2004 12:53 pm (#104 of 800)

The normal reader does not know about Crouch Jr. at that time

Gina R Snape - Apr 14, 2004 5:39 pm (#105 of 800)

The normal reader :snerk: Good one, Detail Seeker!

rambkowalczyk - Apr 17, 2004 9:15 am (#106 of 800)

Crouch JR was arrested with Bella and Company and sent to Azkaban. Previously Sirius Black says the boy died soon after in Azkaban and Sirius saw him get buried. Maybe I'm not a "normal" reader but I knew Crouch JR was dead. Although I will acknowledge I thought he was innocent at the time. Is this what Detail Seeker was trying to say?

TomoÈ - Apr 17, 2004 8:40 pm (#107 of 800)

Maybe Voldemort made the comment about three dead in his service, a faithful servant, a coward and a traitor just because that was the largest gasp in the circle. It was said there was gasp here and there every where in the circle.

Gina R Snape - Apr 17, 2004 9:23 pm (#108 of 800)

Well Ramb; except that Crouch Jr *wasn't* dead. And the DL knew that when he said his speech.

Gina R Snape - Apr 19, 2004 12:48 pm (#109 of 800)

I have a question regarding DE recruitment.

As a friend and I were discussing how we don't know for sure if Snape became a DE before or after his NEWTs, I began to wonder if the DL would bother to recruit kids still at school. First of all, how would they get to his meetings? Most are too young to Apparate (which you can't do on the Hogwarts grounds anyway) and making portkeys all the time might get both tedious and dangerous if they are detectable.

Then there is the time commitment. Would the DL really take as an excuse "I can't come to a DE meeting or be there to attack so-and-so on this date and time because I have classes or exams..." Somehow, even if he needs to recruit, I don't think he'd be so forgiving. So it probably isn't even worth his while to officially recruit until the potential DE is of age, even if he can start to influence potential new DEs beforehand.

Thoughts?

tracie1976 - Apr 19, 2004 1:02 pm (#110 of 800)

Well we know that Snape is still "working" for Voldemort, so maybe Voldemort will try to get Snape to recruit the kids still in school and have him (Snape) work out his own little way of training the kids. That way Voldemort will have the younger DEs inside the school if he plans on attacking Hogwarts.

Dumbly-dorr - Apr 23, 2004 12:12 am (#111 of 800)

Voldemort might have taken great interest in recruiting young people. Look at what Hitler did with the youth of Germany. What were they called? 'Brown...something' He effectively poisoned them before they could fight against the Nazi party. Recruiting young minds, which are pliable, like Quirrell, is an effective tool for those wishing for the power to control others. Adults seem to be more wary and less trusting than the young are.

Gina R Snape - Apr 23, 2004 5:58 am (#112 of 800)

I don't doubt the DL would try to 'recruit their minds' early. In many cases the parents seem to be doing that already. But I still wonder if he would take them in as active DEs before they came of age or at least before they were finished at Hogwarts.

timrew - Apr 23, 2004 3:09 pm (#113 of 800)
Edited Apr 23, 2004 4:10 pm

They were called the 'Hitler Youth', Dumbly-dorr. I can remember a chilling scene from the film, 'Cabaret', of all things. It shows a handsome, blond boy (a head shot only) singing a song called, 'Tomorrow Belongs To Me'. Then the camera pans downwards, and the boy is wearing a Nazi uniform. He is a Hitler Youth recruit.

I can well see Voldie recruiting disaffected youth from Hogwarts and elsewhere into the DEs. Probably, Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle will be the first to go, seeing as their star has fallen so low at Hogwarts.

Rich - Apr 23, 2004 6:45 pm (#114 of 800)
Edited by Apr 23, 2004 7:46 pm

It would be like Voldemort to prey on those who are vulnerable and easily influenced. He does have a way of getting what he wants, he said it himself.

Edit: Just thought I'd add, the Hitler Youth was like a cult. It was, as Tim said, really freaky stuff.

Steve Newton - May 3, 2004 7:47 am (#115 of 800)

In reference to the Goyles. In the first book (SS/PS) on the train to Hogwarts Scabbers bites Goyle on the hand. Since Scabbers is more than the seems and is a follower of The Big V maybe he knows that Goyle is not loyal. Could Goyle come over to Dumbledore's Army?

Gina R Snape - May 3, 2004 8:15 am (#116 of 800)
Edited May 3, 2004 9:16 am

It's an interesting thought. But my hunch is Scabbers/Pettigrew was just acting in his role as faithful pet to Ron at that point. But it does confirm he knew exactly what was going on between the boys.

Hagsquid - May 3, 2004 8:29 am (#117 of 800)

It is an interesting idea indeed. JKR didn't just throw it in there for nothing. I imagine there was a reason that Wormtail bit Goyle... I wonder why?

I'm leaning towards Goyle picking on Peter. Either during school years, or when they were Death Eaters. Goyle may have looked down on Wormtail because he wasn't as great of a Wizard as the rest of the group.

hopping hessian - May 3, 2004 9:14 am (#118 of 800)

Though if Goyle Sr was anything like his son, he wouldn't have been the brightest star in the heavens either. As for Peter not being that good, I read an essay somewhere (I can't for the life of me remember where, so my apologies to the brilliant author) that readers often have a warped view of Peter's abilities because we compare him to James and Sirius. The latter two were beyond most in their abilities, so that could make Peter at least average. Think of what he has done: he is an Animagus, granted he had help, but he can still do it and it's very complex. He was able to fake his own death using magic, and did a very good job of it. He found Voldemort and managed to get him in his baby form and keep him alive, and he helped brew a very complex re-birthing serum. Not easy stuff. I think Peter has more talent then we give him credit for. As for why he bit Goyle, my own personal theory is, he had heard Harry and Ron complain about him, and he wanted to make himself useful/endear himself to Ron so he wouldn't get dumped down a sewer.

Sherbie Lemon - May 4, 2004 9:18 am (#119 of 800)
Edited May 4, 2004 10:28 am

Pardon the disruption, but I'd like to throw in something about the discussion over the DEs Dark Marks. I'm of the camp that believes all Death Eaters have them and that they are visible so long as Voldemort is powerful. I think that they burn black when LV calls his followers to his side, but I also feel pretty certain that they remain even when the DEs are not meeting. I gave several reasons on the What Does Dumbledore Hope to Gain with Snape thread (see post #134) that leads me to this opinion, but I had overlooked this one from OotP:

I mean, the stupid Ministry isn't going to realize Sirius innocent until they accept that Dumbledore's been telling the truth about him all along. And once the fools start catching real Death Eaters again it'll be obvious Sirius isn't one... I mean, he hasn't got the Mark, for one thing.

So that seems that the Mark does stay visible and that the Ministry uses it as a means to distinguish real DEs from those under the Imperius Curse. Although I suppose people could be Imperio'd to get the Mark, but I don't think so. For one, when they eventually come out from the curse, they'd still have the Mark and be able to see when Voldie and his followers were meeting. That seems like a security breech and a risk that Voldie would not take.

But back to the passage from OotP. This quote comes from Hermione, who according to JKR speaks for her a lot of the time. Since she's read The Rise and Fall of the Dark Arts, in which Harry and Voldemort are covered, then I think that it's safe to conclude that she's a good source for this information and the DE Marks stay at least somewhat visible and are a way of identifying Voldie's followers.

Prefect Marcus - May 4, 2004 9:30 am (#120 of 800)

Sherbie,

Number one cardinal rule for interpreting Rowling - Never ever take the word of a character! They may wrong, lying, mistaken, guessing, exaggerating, only speaking partial truths, or not in the possession of all the facts. Nobody is immune from this, not even Dumbledore.

I must say, it makes for refreshing reading. :-)

Marcus

Sherbie Lemon - May 4, 2004 9:50 am (#121 of 800)

I don't know with Hermione and Dumbledore, Prefect Marcus. I'd say nine times out of ten they're dead on with their assumptions and hunches. In fact, I can't recall a time when either gave Harry misinformation (unless, of course, you count DD not telling Harry everything he should have told him from the get go, still, that's not misinformation, that's withholding information). Dumbledore and Hermione are our two wells of factual information. Anything anyone else says I take with a grain of salt, but these two have been acknowledged by JKR herself, no less, to speak for her, to be authoritative on such matters.

Nonetheless, the point is not if a character is believable or not, that was just a bonus to my post. The point is that this is just one more instance where the Dark Mark is mentioned as a means of identification. Henceforth, the Dark Mark must continue to be visible when Voldie is in power.

DJ Evans - May 4, 2004 10:19 am (#122 of 800)

I wonder if the Dark Mark is put on the DEs by LV himself by a spell/charm? If so, it could have some sort of connection to LV--like him being able to control them in a way?

Same here, Sherbie--if you can't pretty much trust DD and what Hermione has read/learned then who can you trust? Hermione is well known for her book smarts!!

Later days, Deb

Prefect Marcus - May 4, 2004 5:23 pm (#123 of 800)

There is a difference between telling a lie and saying something that is untrue. The later is only a lie if the teller knows that it is untrue.

For instance, Hermione was convinced that Snape was jinxing Harry's broom and so stated it. This was certainly false, but nobody is going to call it a lie.

Marcus

Hagsquid - May 4, 2004 11:18 pm (#124 of 800)

Actually... it wasn't false. He was, in fact, jinxing Harry's broom. The fact that it was a *counter*-curse does not negate the fact that it was a curse. She recognized it for what it was. :-P

SarcasticGinny - May 17, 2004 12:53 pm (#125 of 800)

I thought the Dark Mark is pretty much invisible until Voldemort grows stronger and returns. Otherwise wouldn't Lucius (and loads of others...Crouch Jr., Karkaroff, Snape, shall I continue?) number have been up a long time ago if the Ministry checked suspected Death Eaters for the Mark?

Ozymandias - May 17, 2004 10:54 pm (#126 of 800)

I think that's right, SarcasticGinny. In GoF, Karkaroff shows Snape his Mark and says: "Do you see? It's never been this clear, never since-" I would assume that the rest of the sentence is something to the effect of "since Voldemort was alive." I'm thinking that the Dark Mark serves as a gauge of Lord Thingy's power. After Godric's Hollow, it may have been very faint or gone completely, and gets darker the stronger Voldemort gets. So after even if the MoM checked for it after VW I, the Marks may have been gone already.

Madame Librarian - May 18, 2004 7:08 am (#127 of 800)

I think it could be like a bruise--ordinary black and blue marks of various shapes that gradually coalesce into a "clear" tattoo-like mark when Voldemort is stronger. That way it's still there, and fellow DEs would be able to know each other, but others would not give it a second thought.

The actual mechanism of the thing is not really critical, I think.

Ciao. Barb

oeddypus - Jun 15, 2004 8:21 pm (#128 of 800)

Can anyone tell me really quickly how many Death Eaters were sent to Azkaban at the end of OotP? Who all were they?

I'm writing a Quibbler article for my RPG, and I can't seem to come up with this information. And my copy of the book is nowhere to be found. So, please help me!

TomoÈ - Jun 16, 2004 7:07 am (#129 of 800)
Edited Jun 16, 2004 8:08 am

There were 11 of them :

# Lucius Malfoy
# Augustus Rockwood
# Crabbe
# Antonin Dolohov
# Avery
# Jugson
# Rabastan Lestrange
# Rodolphus Lestrange
# Walden Macnair
# Mulciber
# Nott

Bella who escaped could have been seen by the MoM employees too as Fudge saw Voldemort.

oeddypus - Jun 16, 2004 10:59 am (#130 of 800)

Thank you, TomoÈ--I ended up making a list identical to yours. However, one of my friends, whose HP knowledge I trust implicitly, told me that Nott was injured at the ministry and left behind, instead of imprisoned. She hasn't yet responded to my question about that.

Was it Nott that was "injured" in the Time Room, and kept being changed into a baby (or his head, at least) and back? I do wonder..

Gina R Snape - Jun 16, 2004 12:33 pm (#131 of 800)

I think the assumption was that, since he was injured by the time thingy, he was captured there by Ministry officials/Aurors. My guess is he's probably now a permanent resident on observation at St. Mungo's. But who knows. They might have a magical remedy, and then it'll be off to Azkaban for him too!

S.E. Jones - Jun 16, 2004 2:16 pm (#132 of 800)

Nott was injured in the Hall of Prophecy and Lucius yelled to "leave him". We don't hear what happens to him after that, but I'd assume that Auror went through and picked him up later.

TomoÈ - Jun 17, 2004 6:40 am (#133 of 800)

Nott didn't sound to be able to run away very fast anyway. ^_^

Nathan Zimmermann - Jun 19, 2004 11:53 am (#134 of 800)
Edited Jun 19, 2004 12:55 pm

I have a question given the fact that Lucius Malfoy is currently in Azkaban who will assume his leadership role with the community of Death Eaters? Assuming that he does not continue in that leadership role from a prison cell.

Best Regards, Nathan Zimmermann

Chris. - Jun 19, 2004 12:13 pm (#135 of 800)

I would imagine Bellatrix. I've always wondered why she wasn't the leader at the start, as Voldemort thought her more faithful in the Graveyard scene.

Nathan Zimmermann - Jun 19, 2004 12:18 pm (#136 of 800)

Prongs the only drawback to that idea is her impatience. As is evidenced when Malfoy has to deflect her spell from hitting Harry when they first confront the D.A. members. Although, she definitely is a match for Malfoy in intelligence and cunning and has leadership abilities.

Best regards, Nathan Zimmermann

TomoÈ - Jun 21, 2004 6:10 pm (#137 of 800)
Edited Jun 21, 2004 7:11 pm

The only DE we know of that are out of Azkaban and alive are Wormtail, Bella, Crabbe and Snape. Bella is a bit too rash and neither Wormtail nor Crabbe have the leadership to take the job. Snape have leadership, yes, but how will he manage to get his teacher duties done? Make Wormtail correct the students' homework?

'Professor Snape', asked Hermione looking puzzled. 'What did you write here? I can't read your handwriting.' Snape give a look at her copy.

'No idea', he answered, unfathomable.

Nathan Zimmermann - Jun 21, 2004 7:48 pm (#138 of 800)
Edited Jun 21, 2004 8:49 pm

TomoÈ. That is an excellent counterpoint. Perhaps Bellatrix will temper her impatience. Or Narcissa could be recruited assuming she is not a Death Eater as well.

Best regards, Nathan Zimmermann

Gina R Snape - Jun 21, 2004 7:54 pm (#139 of 800)

Oh, it would be dreadful for Snape if he were made 'next in command' of the Death Eaters. He'd pass out from all the stress of spying for sure. No way he could do that and not tip his hand at some point.

At any rate, I still think the Dark Lord has 'good reason' for Snape to remain at Hogwarts. And he can't Apparate or Disapparate from the grounds, making him ill equipped in that case to be at the Dark Lord's beck-and-call.

It would be pretty funny, though, if he started scribbling on scrolls and nodding off during his own lectures from all the Order/DE/Teaching overtime!

Nathan Zimmermann - Jun 25, 2004 12:26 pm (#140 of 800)

Gina R. Snape there is one Death Eater who has not been mentioned. Travers, the Death Eater who murdered Marlene McKinnon and her family and was captured at the same time as Mulciber and to Azkaban.

Best regards, Nathan

Gina R Snape - Jun 25, 2004 12:35 pm (#141 of 800)

Hmmmmm. Wonder what's up with him.

I have my suspicions about Avery, mind you. He was punished by the Dark Lord for passing false information, and I believe is figured to be around the same age as Snape. I wonder if they are friends, or at least that Snape is not the only double operative amongst the DEs.

Nathan Zimmermann - Jun 25, 2004 1:37 pm (#142 of 800)
Edited Jun 25, 2004 2:55 pm

Gina R. Snape, Sirius mentioned in Goblet of Fire that Avery was a member of a gang of Slytherins. This gang of Slytherins included Snape, Rudolphus, Bellatrix, Rosier, and Wilkes.

Snape knew more curses when he arrived at school than half the kids seventh year, and he was part of a gang of Slytherins who nearly all turned out to be Death Eaters.

Sirius held up his fingers and began ticking off names. "Rosier and Wilkes -- they were both killed by Aurors the year before Voldemort fell. The Lestranges -- they're a married couple they're in Azkaban. Avery -- from what I heard he wormed his way out of trouble by saying he acted under the Imperius Curse -- he's still at large. But as far as I know Snape was never accused of being a Death Eater --- not that that means much. Plenty of them were never caught.."

Page 531 of Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire American Version printed by Scholastic Press

Best Regards, Nathan

Gina R Snape - Jun 25, 2004 5:18 pm (#143 of 800)

Yes, thanks Nathan. That's why I think they are the same age more or less.

But I meant, that they are friends NOW, but we don't see it because Harry doesn't see it. However, Harry did see Avery being punished and Snape did become upset by this. It could be surmised that Snape is upset to see Harry viewing DEs being punished. Or that he was upset to see Avery being punished...or both.

But we do know from Harry's 'vision' that Avery was punished by the Dark Lord for giving incorrect information. Either Avery did that mistakenly, or on purpose. And if he did it on purpose, then Snape is not the only DE quietly opposing the Dark Lord.

Nathan Zimmermann - Jun 25, 2004 6:02 pm (#144 of 800)

Gina R. Snape, your question makes me wonder if Snape is running a espionage ring within the Death Eaters, using active Death Eaters like Avery amongst others. While, hiding Karkaroff and perhaps Travers as well.

Best Regards, Nathan

Gina R Snape - Jun 25, 2004 6:29 pm (#145 of 800)

Oooooh. Now that would be interesting! Karkaroff came to Snape, who promised to 'make his excuses.' Snape must be getting information from other DEs.

I only wonder is who else is a traitor to the Dark Lord.

TomoÈ - Jun 26, 2004 7:48 pm (#146 of 800)

Harry didn't see Avery being punished, he just felt it. The scene Snape saw was the one with Rockwood and Voldemort talking of Avery.

Anyway, I wonder too if Snape and his old gang are still friends. We just don't know enough of Rodolphus (he's overshadowed by his wife), Rosier and Wilkes are dead, we don't know enough of Avery's and Bellatrix doesn't seems to have anything special with Snape, but she could have been not quite in the gang, more Lestrange's girlfriend than a real friend of them. I wonder who was the ring leader. I suppose there nothing to do but wait until book 6. -_-

Round Pink Spider - Jun 27, 2004 9:29 am (#147 of 800)

I just promised the folks in the 'Death Eaters in the MoM' thread that I would post this in a more appropriate place, since it applies to someone that probably isn't in the MoM.

I think I may have found some clues that Rabastan Lestrange never went to Azkaban. In GoF, on p. 594, during the trial over the torture of the Longbottoms, one of the Lestranges was described as a thickset man who ‘stared blankly’ at Crouch Sr. during the trial. Remember, this man was facing life imprisonment in Azkaban, and yet he was showing no emotion. Compare this to the scene on p. 616 in the OotP, when Marietta Edgecombe’s eyes looked ‘oddly blank’ because Kingsley had just performed a memory charm on her.

Now look at the scene in GoF, when Voldemort was working his way around the circle of Death Eaters. On p. 650, Voldemort paused before an opening big enough for only TWO (!!!) people, and said that the Lestranges, who should have stood there, were in Azkaban. If all three Lestranges were on trial and went to Azkaban, why was the opening only big enough for two?

All three of them were in the Department of Mysteries, chasing Harry and his friends (Lucius named all three of them on p. 788). Either Rudolphus or Rabastan could have escaped from prison, although the Ministry never made a fuss about it. After considering the courtroom scene, though, it seems possible that one of the two men never went to prison.

Maybe the real Uncle Algie was the victim of a switching spell and a memory charm, and was sent to Azkaban instead. (Remember that the Lestranges and Crouch Jr. were convicted and sentenced with indecent haste.) Certainly the current Uncle Algie doesn't seem like a very nice person. Pushing his nephew off Blackpool pier and dangling him out the window by the ankles and "accidentally" letting go? Especially now that we know Neville was one of the two boys to whom the prophecy could have applied...

P.S. (On a completely separate note, JKR said in a recent chat session that Rabastan IS dead. So that issue has been settled.)

TomoÈ - Jun 27, 2004 10:20 am (#148 of 800)

Rabastan is dead? JKR said so in a recent chat? Which one? When?

Nathan Zimmermann - Jun 27, 2004 10:33 am (#149 of 800)
Edited Jun 27, 2004 11:36 am

I would have thought if any Death Eater were dead it would have been Nott. Given he had incurred multiple injuries in the Department of Mysteries raid.

Julia. - Jun 27, 2004 10:52 am (#150 of 800)
Edited Jun 27, 2004 11:53 am

I don't recall her saying that Rastaban is dead. I do, however recall her saying in the World Book Day chat that Regulus Black is dead.

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Round Pink Spider - Jun 27, 2004 11:04 am (#151 of 800)

My apologies to you all. After all that typing, my fingers typed Rabastan instead of Regulus. It's Regulus that's dead. Sorry for the confusion.

Julia. - Jun 27, 2004 11:06 am (#152 of 800)

No worries RPS, happens all the time. With so much to keep track of, it's easy to get them mixed up.

TomoÈ - Jun 27, 2004 12:51 pm (#153 of 800)
Edited Jun 27, 2004 1:51 pm

The Lestrange family is intact then and my information is still accurate. ^_^

Nathan Zimmermann - Jun 27, 2004 1:47 pm (#154 of 800)
Edited Jun 27, 2004 2:51 pm

I wonder what the fate of those Death Eaters who were injured in the Department of Mysteries?

Could any of the injuries they suffered have been fatal?

Best regards, Nathan

Catherine - Jun 27, 2004 2:49 pm (#155 of 800)

Well, wasn't Nott left behind?

We already know that he is old. It's possible he didn't survive the attack. But we have no "official" word about this.

Nathan Zimmermann - Jun 27, 2004 5:30 pm (#156 of 800)

Yes, Nott was left behind on Malfoy's orders.

That leaves us with at least three others who suffered injuries

Those Death Eaters are Macnair who was injured when Neville thrust Hermione's wand through the eyehole of his mask, and two unnamed Death Eaters.

Of the two unknown Death Eaters one was disabled in the Planet room and the other was disabled in the time room when he got his he stuck in the jar.

Nathan

S.E. Jones - Jun 27, 2004 7:55 pm (#157 of 800)

RPS: Now look at the scene in GoF, when Voldemort was working his way around the circle of Death Eaters. On p. 650, Voldemort paused before an opening big enough for only TWO (!!!) people, and said that the Lestranges, who should have stood there, were in Azkaban. If all three Lestranges were on trial and went to Azkaban, why was the opening only big enough for two?

I think the two people were either the two Lestrange brothers and Bella normally stood somewhere else in the circle, or they were Mr. and Mrs. Lestrange and the brother stood somewhere else in the circle. But, I definitely think all three Lestranges went to Azkaban. We have four people hauled before the Wizengamot in the pensieve scene in GoF and then there is Sirius’ comment in OotP ("They're in Azkaban. Bellatrix and her husband Rodolphus came in with Barty Crouch, Junior. Rudolphus' brother, Rabastan, was with them too.").

Mellilot Flower. - Jun 28, 2004 4:51 am (#158 of 800)

Haven't there been great discussions accounting for everyone in that circle of Death Eaters? Only two Lestranges were ever mentioned as far as I can remember, which could simply mean that one of them, obviously not Bella was not in the inner circle. Since the tremendous show of loyalty in torturing the Longbottoms that may have since changed.

I admit, however that there is something suspicious about Uncle Algie... though quite why he'd be so determined to force some magic out of one of the boys who might possibly thwart his master, who knows? I'm not sure that the link from horned toads, to Trevor, to gifts, to the Mimbulus, to Algie being bad is a particularly strong one however... and the rest of the "bad" things Algie does are open to interpretation. One thing going for him though is that he does seem very close to Neville's grandmother, always on family outings etc and popping over for tea, that woman is very formidable and I can't imagine her allowing anyone she doesn't trust around Neville.

Catherine - Jun 28, 2004 6:11 am (#159 of 800)
Edited Jun 28, 2004 7:11 am

I don't think the graveyard scene in GoF excludes the possibility of three Lestrange family members. The space may have been "big enough for two people," but that doesn't mean that three couldn't stand there. There were other gaps in the circle as well. We have multiple references to three Lestranges.

Harry saw four people in the Pensieve scene in Dumbledore's office in GoF; one woman and three men. One of the men was Barty Crouch, Jr., and the woman was Bellatrix Lestrange.

Sirius tells Harry "Bellatrix and her husband Rodolphus came in with Barty Crouch, Junior," said Sirius in the same brusque voice. "Rudolphus' brother, Rabastan, was with them too." (OoP, Scholastic, p. 114) In this passage, Sirius refers to them being in Azkaban, not simply on trial. This passage names the two other men that Harry saw in Dumbledore's Pensieve in GoF.

In the Ministry of Magic showdown in chapter 35 of OoP, Malfoy issues orders: "...be gentle with Potter until we've got the prophecy, you can kill the others if necessary--Bellatrix, Rodolphus, you take the left, Crabbe, Rabastan, go right--" (OoP, Scholastic, p 788). All the Lestranges are mentioned here.

I guess I don't see a problem at this point.

Nathan Zimmermann - Jun 28, 2004 11:47 am (#160 of 800)
Edited Jun 28, 2004 1:10 pm

From the description of the space that existed between Lucius Malfoy and the next death. It sounds only to be large enough for two persons.

Voldemort moved on, and stopped, staring at the space--large enough for two people--that separated Malfoy and the next man, "The Lestranges should stand here," said Voldemort quietly. But, they are entombed in Azkaban..." Page 650 of the American Version of Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire printed by Scholastic Press

I think that only Bellatrix and Rodolphus were intended for those spots. Given the fact that from the first mention of the Lestranges in Goblet of Fire. The Lestranges were mentioned as a married couple.

The first mention of the Lestranges I am aware of occurred when Sirius mentioned in Goblet of Fire that Snape was a member of a gang of Slytherins. This gang of Slytherins included Avery, Rudolphus, Bellatrix, Rosier, and Wilkes.

Snape knew more curses when he arrived at school than half the kids seventh year, and he was part of a gang of Slytherins who nearly all turned out to be Death Eaters.

Sirius held up his fingers and began ticking off names. "Rosier and Wilkes -- they were both killed by Aurors the year before Voldemort fell. The Lestranges -- they're a married couple they're in Azkaban. Avery -- from what I heard he wormed his way out of trouble by saying he acted under the Imperius Curse -- he's still at large. But as far as I know Snape was never accused of being a Death Eater --- not that that means much. Plenty of them were never caught.."

Page 531 of Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire American Version printed by Scholastic Press

Another point would like to discuss is later in the scene with the Death Eaters in the graveyard when Voldemort alludes to six unnamed Death Eaters who are missing from the circle.

And here we have six missing Death Eaters...three dead in my service. One, too cowardly to return...he will pay. One, I believe has left me forever...he will be killed of course... and one, who remains my most faithful servant, and who has already reentered my service...."He is at Hogwarts, that faithful servant, and it was through his efforts that our young friend arrived here tonight..." Pages 651-652 of the American Version of Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire printed by Scholastic Press

The first three unnamed Death Eaters, he refers to as being dead in his service.

Of the three Death Eaters that are known to be dead. We know that both Rosier and Wilkes died fighting for Voldemort.

That leaves one Death Eater who died in his service unidentified.

After mentioning the dead Death Eaters. Voldemort describes the last three missing Death Eaters.

The fourth unnamed Death Eater is alluded to as one being too cowardly to return

The fifth unnamed Death Eater is alluded to as one who he believes has left his service and renounced his allegiance

The last unnamed Death Eater is referred to as his faithful servant who has reentered his service.

Now most theories I have read are of the opinion that Igor Karkaroff is the Death Eater too cowardly to return. I agree with this assessment given that it is borne out by his actions in Goblet of Fire.

I believe that the one who left his service forever and will be killed alludes to Severus Snape. This borne out by Severus protecting Harry from Quirrell during the Quidditch match in which, Quirrell was trying to throw him off his broom.

The allusion to the last unnamed Death Eater, the one Voldemort referred to as his faithful servant who has reentered his service can only logically be applied to one person given the text of the passage.

Given that last bit of information about his efforts to bring Harry Potter to Voldemort. The faithful servant can only be one person Bartemius Crouch Jr.

Having identified five of the six missing Death Eaters. I have a question.

My question is it possible that the third deceased Death Eater who remained unidentifiable at the end of Goblet of Fire, is in fact an allusion to Regulus Black. Even though he was murdered rather than being allowed to renounce his allegiance to Voldemort?

‘Oh, no,’ Sirius said. ‘No, he was murdered by Voldemort. Or on Voldemort’s orders more likely, I doubt Regulus was ever important enough to be killed by Voldemort in person. From what I found out after he died , he got in so far, then panicked about what he was being asked to do and tried to back out Well, you don’t just hand in your resignation to Voldemort . It’s a lifetime of service or death.’ Pages 111-112 of the American Version of Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix printed by Scholastic Press

I have another question... are the positionings of the Death Eaters in the circle indicative of their power and authority within the group?

Best regards, Nathan

haymoni - Jun 29, 2004 2:41 pm (#161 of 800)

I'm guessing since all the other Death Eaters are male that the space big enough for two was for the Lestrange brothers.

Trixie seems to be the only Death Eatress.

Dumbledore - Jun 29, 2004 4:22 pm (#162 of 800)

When did we start calling Bellatrix Trixie? :-)

Voldemort does have (human) supporters outside of the Death Eaters, right? I always thought that the Death Eaters were only his most faithful supporters, and that there were others doing his dirty work. With only such a small group as the Death Eaters, I don't see it plausible for Voldemort to rise to power. Having said that, I never thought that Regulus Black was considered to be that faithful and supportive of Voldemort to be a Death Eater. I always assumed that he was a Voldemort supporter, but hadn't yet reached that level of "prestige".

Nathan Zimmermann - Jun 29, 2004 4:44 pm (#163 of 800)
Edited Jun 29, 2004 5:48 pm

Dumbledore,

A few lines above that passage.

Sirius calls Regulus a stupid idiot and he goes to explain that he joined the Death Eaters. The reference to Regulus being a Death Eater can be found on Pages 111-112 of the American Version of Harry Potter and Order of the Phoenix

Best Regards, Nathan

Dumbledore - Jun 29, 2004 4:46 pm (#164 of 800)

Oh goodness! How could I have forgotten? *blushes* Thanks for the gentle nudge, Nathan, I needed the wake up call!

Mellilot Flower. - Jun 29, 2004 4:57 pm (#165 of 800)

But still, their must be ranks within the Death Eaters, in no organisation is everyone equal, especially not in an elitist group like this. Regulus would have been labelled a Death Eater, just like someone with a yellow belt would be said to do karate- they don't do it on the same level as a black belt, nor with the same skill, but it's the same art.

Nathan Zimmermann - Jun 29, 2004 5:03 pm (#166 of 800)

Chloe Chandler,

Your statement brings up an interesting question.

Is it possible that the positioning of the Death Eaters in the circle is indicative of their seniority within the group?

Best Regards, Nathan

Mellilot Flower. - Jun 29, 2004 5:12 pm (#167 of 800)

We've always been led to believe that Voldemort had great support and that the wizarding world was vaster than it seemed (this leads me to believe that many died in VWI and that the wizarding population has since been seriously depleted). It would be silly for such an organisation to be represented solely by people who could be named by memory... we know from what Harry saw in the pensieve and from the various hints we've had about spy operations and the work carried out by Aura's that the enemy, that the Death Eaters had much greater numbers than simply Severus' friends and a few pure-bloods (as in those that have been named)

Nathan Zimmermann - Jun 29, 2004 6:37 pm (#168 of 800)
Edited Jun 29, 2004 7:52 pm

Chloe Chandler,

I agree completely. First, I was wondering whether the circle represented the command structure of Voldemort's organization, with circle of Death Eaters representing only the most senior of Voldemort's lieutenants

Second, Does there existed within the circle a hierarchy based on seniority? Because, within the circle of Death Eaters Lucius Malfoy is positioned right next to the Lestranges. I

Voldemort moved on, and stopped, staring at the space--large enough for two people--that separated Malfoy and the next man, "The Lestranges should stand here," said Voldemort quietly. "But, they are entombed in Azkaban..."

Page 650 of the American Version of Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire printed by Scholastic Press I am curious because, in the subsequent raid on the Department of Mysteries raid Lucius Malfoy is clearly in command but, it seems to me Bellatrix is his second in command.

Best Regards, Nathan

Prefect Marcus - Jun 29, 2004 7:02 pm (#169 of 800)

Nathan,

I am not so sure that Bellatrix was second in command. She certainly was the most vocal, and the most aggressive. However, that does not necessarily mean she was second in command.

Would Voldemort want to trust an important mission to such a loose cannon? I have my doubts.

Marcus

S.E. Jones - Jun 29, 2004 7:39 pm (#170 of 800)

Well, Marcus, she's a loose canon now, after all those years in Azkaban to unnerve her, but was she a loose canon when she won the spot in the circle? Now that is the question....

Gina R Snape - Jun 29, 2004 8:18 pm (#171 of 800)

Yes, she has the fanaticism that comes with being locked up for years impatiently waiting for her master's return...and expecting rich rewards for it. How rudely awakened I suspect she will be!

I doubt Lucius operates under such thinking of rewards. He's by far in it for himself more than anyone else, in my opinion.

I wonder though, how many of the 'faithful' Death Eaters--ones active again--were less than thrilled to be summoned once more. Even if they weren't a traitor to the Dark Lord, surely their lives were easier without him. I wonder what kind of impact that will have on their success as a 'team'.

Nathan Zimmermann - Jun 29, 2004 8:29 pm (#172 of 800)

Gina R. Snape,

Your question about the ones that were less than thrilled makes one name spring to mind immediately. Avery, I doubt was thrilled to be summoned.

Best regards, Nathan

Mellilot Flower. - Jun 30, 2004 3:54 am (#173 of 800)

Circles usually indicate that all those within it are equal- as in the round table and it's knights. However, since no group of people are going have exactly the same skill level some (is Lucius) are bound to emerge as dominant. This may simply be because he wouldn't take a subservient role. I'm still curious as to why the unfaithful Lucius, who never tried to find his master and divorced himself so readily from responsibility is still thought of so highly in the circle- We've always received the impression that the Lestranges and Crouch Jr would become second in command in the new order because of their loyalty. We saw this when the Death Eaters were first recalled, and the way that Voldemort himself described each Death Eater, and then from what Bella said in the pensieve and what Couch Jr ranted under the Veritaserum and before... Crouch is out of course- but the other three seem to be fully operational, only what long term effect did those Dementors have on them?

Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 5, 2004 10:08 pm (#174 of 800)

Mellilot Flower,

That is an interesting question> I think of the remaining Death Eaters Bellatrix has shown herself to be the most loyal and the most powerful of the remaining Death Eaters. She is the only one who was able to deflect a spell cast by Albus Dumbledore. A feat that even Lucius Malfoy for all his cunning could not do. Or is it possible that a character that we have not yet seen like Pyrites could become Voldemort's second in command.

Other drafts included a character by the name of 'Pyrites', whose name means 'fool's gold'. He was a servant of Voldemort's and was meeting Sirius in front of the Potters' house. Pyrites, too, had to be discarded, though I quite liked him as a character; he was a dandy and wore white silk gloves, which I thought I might stain artistically with blood from time to time.

That being said I have two more questions

First, Given J.K. Rowling's statements about liking Pyrites is it possible that we will see Pyrites in books 6 and 7? Second, as servants of Voldemort could both Pyrites and Quirrell be classified as Death Eaters?

Best Regards, Nathan

Mellilot Flower. - Jul 6, 2004 2:54 am (#175 of 800)

I'm not sure that any old servant of Voldemort is classed as a Death Eater, I think it has more to do with the dark mark and I imagine some kind of ceremony welcoming them into the ranks.

As for Pyrites being introduced, I think it unlikely- she's given us too much information about him now for him to be important in the book. As far as I can tell what she tells us in the site she does so because she can't fit it into the books. However if she continues to write after the Harry Potter series we might see a very pyrite like character somewhere- most writers create and store characters to use where necessary.

Kip Carter - Jul 9, 2004 12:05 am (#176 of 800)
Edited Jul 9, 2004 1:07 am

I moved this post to this thread. - Kip

Severus Snape’s secret mission at the end of Goblet of Fire

starlitetwynk - Jul 5, 2004 4:40 pm
Edited by S.E. Jones Jul 5, 2004 4:58 pm

On page 651 of the Goblet of Fire(the graveyard scene, where the Death Eaters reappear), Voldemort states, "and here we have the six missing Death Eaters...three dead in my service. One, too cowardly to return...he will pay. One, who I believe has left me forever...he will be killed, of course...and one, who remains my most faithful servant, and who has already reentered my service." I think that it is assumed that the "cowardly" Death Eater is Karkaroff, and the "most faithful servant" is Crouch. However, the third, one is believed to have "left me forever" is unanswered. At first, I thought that it was obviously Snape, and I think that was the aim of J.K. Rowling for people to assume that. But, in the Order of the Phoenix, we find out that Snape has mastered Legilimency and Occlumency. And, if he truly has, and has been a veritable spy for the Order then Voldemort would not know he has left him forever. So, does this mean that Snape was one of the hooded Death Eaters not mentioned and was actually witness to the events in the graveyard? On page 706, when Harry is trying to convince Fudge of his story he offers to give names of the Death Eaters, and Snape, "made a sudden movement." Snape’s favorite student is also Malfoy and as he is most certainly aware that Lucius is a Death Eater, if he was on the good side wouldn’t he not favor Draco particularly? Barty Crouch didn't seem too angry at Snape for leaving Voldemort... (I've assumed that Snape’s secret duty has been to play roles on the good side and the bad side) And, if Snape was there, then who is the third missing Death Eater?

Courtney22 - Jul 9, 2004 3:09 pm (#177 of 800)

One thing I never understood is how can Barty JR. be Voldemort's most faithful servant if when in front of the court during his trial he said that he had nothing to do with the Dark Lord. Others who lied and manipulated there way out of jail (which lets face it Barty JR ultimately did) where reprimanded by Voldemort. That just never quite sat right with me. Wouldn't his most faithful servant be one who never denied him?

Ff3girl - Jul 9, 2004 9:11 pm (#178 of 800)

Hm... that is interesting that Barty Crouch seems to hate the other DEs for abandoning the Dark Lord when he so convincingly did the same thing in his trial. Makes me wonder... a while ago we were discussing on the Barty Crouch thread a theory that maybe he was innocent when he was sent to Azkaban. Even though its obviously unlikely, I still think its possible.

Even though Voldemort was not around, he was around lots of other DEs in Azkaban. The Lestranges were pretty convinced he would return, so maybe they taunted him/congratulated him about the great work he had done for the Dork Lard... all the while Barty Crouch would have been going insane from the Dementors and joining with the DEs might not have sounded such a bad idea.

I know there are arguments against it... "there was already a space for him at the circle"... "he proved he was a good actor when he played mad-eye moody"... "it defies all common sense..."

Well, too bad! I like the idea. ^_^

S.E. Jones - Jul 9, 2004 11:29 pm (#179 of 800)

Well, Voldemort might think him his most faithful because he never saw that pensieve seen (not being there at the time the hearing happened) and so didn't hear Crouch Jr denounce him. And, as far as Voldemort knows, Jr went to prison for him. Also, Jr spent years fighting to get away from his father's Imperius Curse so he could go looking for Voldemort (Voldemort wanted nothing more than for one of his "loyal DEs" to come find him in his weakened state). The lack of evidence against him and the evidence present that points to him being loyal would make Voldemort think him his most loyal....

Weeny Owl - Jul 10, 2004 12:02 am (#180 of 800)

Anyone who is interested in a debate on who is the one who has left forever and who is the coward should check out the Severus Snape thread. It's most interesting.

Courtney22 - Jul 10, 2004 9:42 am (#181 of 800)

Barty JR. didn't spend enough time in prison to be convinced to join the DE did he? I don't have the book in front of me but I was under the impression that his dad and mom came and got him out almost right away. Also I'm sure that there were enough people present at the trial, who witnessed him denounce his involvement for word to be spread and ultimately reach Voldemort. After all people thought less of Barty SR. for sending his son away who was pleading innocence. Or maybe they just thought less of him because his son was involved with DE.

I don't know... like I said before I just think its odd that one of his "Most loyal" had denied ever having anything to do with him.

schoff - Jul 10, 2004 10:57 am (#182 of 800)

I suspect that while Crouch Jr was innocent of the crime he went to Azkaban for, he was still a die-hard Death Eater at the time of the trial. Crouch is only protesting his innocence at the charges of torturing the Longbottoms. He never denies being a Death Eater.

I think he was very loyal to Voldemort, he was just doing other bad things at the time.

Courtney22 - Jul 10, 2004 11:15 am (#183 of 800)

You're right schoff I just reread the pensieve chapter and he never denies being a DE or denounces Voldemort. he just said he wasn't involved and he didn't know.

Well that could be the end of my ponderings on the subject.

Ff3girl - Jul 10, 2004 5:02 pm (#184 of 800)

OoTP... I suppose that ends it for me, too. I suppose its possible that Barty Crouch didn't actually torture the Longbottoms but was still a DE. I still think he became a DE while he was in prison, though. No real evidence for it, but hey, lots of people don't seem to mind that anymore. ^_~

MrsGump - Jul 12, 2004 6:39 am (#185 of 800)

When Crouch Jr transformed back to his normal self, why didn't anyone check his arm for the Dark Mark? That would show whether he was truly in the inner circle of Death Eater, but it's not done. That's bothered me. I suppose if he became a DE after getting sent to Azkaban, he wouldn't have one, but then he wouldn't be one of the missing in the circle, either.

Julia. - Jul 12, 2004 8:18 am (#186 of 800)

When Crouch Jr transformed back to his normal self, why didn't anyone check his arm for the Dark Mark?

That question occurred to me as well, and I think the answer is that only Voldemort can check for it. As he is the only one who knows how to burn it onto people's arms, I would think that when he devised the spell he put some sort of check in for it, but he is the only one who knows how to use it.

haymoni - Jul 12, 2004 10:21 am (#187 of 800)

Since Barty, Jr. was so much younger than the rest, I figured he wasn't around for the big tattoo party.

MrsGump - Jul 12, 2004 12:42 pm (#188 of 800)

But you don't need to be able to use it to see it. Snape showing his mark to Fudge should've been proof enough that LV was back, after all.

After Harry says the DE came back, then the Mark on Jr should've been visible as well. Karkaroff tells Snape it's starting to come back before LV even touched Wormtail's to call them.

Plus, if he was too young for the tattoo party (lovely picture in my head now, lol, all drunk on Firewhiskey and laughing while they get branded) then he wouldn't have a spot in the circle, either, because that's how the circle DEs were called.

schoff - Jul 12, 2004 2:17 pm (#189 of 800)

Hmmm. I understood the Dark Mark as kinda like a "beacon." Voldie activates it when he wants it, and it shuts off when the Death Eaters arrive. It's not visible all the time, otherwise it would be a dead give-away, especially to Malfoy. He couldn't have claimed he was Imperio'd if all they had to do was look at his arm. I thought the year it was returning during GoF was like it was recharging its batteries. That's why Karkaroff and Snape could see it. Faint, but there. Voldie makes it obvious at the Graveyard when he calls the Death Eaters to him. Jr.’s Mark would have been visible when Voldie first activated it, but an hour later it would have faded out.

MrsGump - Jul 12, 2004 4:42 pm (#190 of 800)

Then so should Snape’s, but he shows it to Fudge. It must last longer than that.

schoff - Jul 12, 2004 10:48 pm (#191 of 800)
Edited Jul 12, 2004 11:49 pm

Ah, quite right, MrsGump! Don't know how I could've forgotten ol' Severus!

Luis Paris - Jul 15, 2004 1:53 pm (#192 of 800)

But still couldn't those allegedly under the Imperius Curse accuse Voldemort of kidnapping them and burning the Mark upon them, thus excusing them of carrying it.

I believe that LV would gain nothing by burning the Mark on people under the Imperius Curse, but the Minister of Magic seems to buy cheap excuses from certain people (Ejm. Lucius Malfoy)

schoff - Jul 27, 2004 10:31 pm (#193 of 800)
Edited Jul 27, 2004 11:36 pm

Prongs (from Moody's thread):Were Bella and co. the last of the DEs to be captured? I always thought that was the end of the "Reign of Terror"

Sirius said they were initially "Death Eaters who managed to talk their way out of Azkaban." (GF 27 527 US) They were brought in after Voldemort vanished and Sirius was in Azkaban. Dumbledore said the attacks on the Longbottoms "came after Voldemort's fall from power, just when everyone thought they were safe." (GF 30 603 US) The Ministry was also under great pressure to find the perpetrators.

I think this infers that Bella and Co. were the last of the rounded up DEs. At the very least, they were at the end of the trials. Travers, Mulciber, and Dolohov were already in Azkaban. Rookwood went soon after, and most likely before the Fab 4--since Karkaroff's trial (where Rookwood was outed as a DE) was before theirs. There were most likely only 3 more DEs at Azkaban but we don't know their names or when they were apprehended--although one of them might be Jugson.

Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 4, 2004 3:51 pm (#194 of 800)

Speaking of Travers is there any mention of his fate. He was absent from the Battle of the Department of Mysteries and is not mentioned as being among the Ten who escaped Azkaban.

schoff - Aug 4, 2004 5:53 pm (#195 of 800)
Edited Aug 4, 2004 6:54 pm

Travers must have been one of the ten who escaped from Azkaban, but like Wormtail (and possibly Goyle--I can't find him mentioned in the chapter), was not at the DoM battle.

Known DEs (in service during VWI): Avery, Regulus Black, Crabbe, Barty Crouch, Jr., Antonin Dolohov, Goyle, Jugson, Igor Karkaroff, Bellatrix Lestrange, Rabastan Lestrange, Rodolphus Lestrange, Walden Macnair, Lucius Malfoy, Mulciber, Nott, Peter Pettigrew, Augustus Rookwood, Evan Rosier, Severus Snape, Travers, and Wilkes. That's 21. (Note: This does not account for the possibility that Bagman is also a DE.)

Known DEs in Azkaban during Voldemort's rebirth (and not at the graveyard): Antonin Dolohov (OoP 25 US543) Bellatrix Lestrange (OoP 25 US544) Rabastan Lestrange (OoP 6 US114) Rodolphus Lestrange (OoP 6 US114) Mulciber (GF 30 US590) Augustus Rookwood (OoP 25 US543) Travers (GF 30 US590) Minimum three more Death Eaters, names unknown.

OoP 25 US544: ‘...confirmed that ten high security prisoners escaped...’ We know for sure of three of them: Bellatrix, Dolohov, and Rookwood (OoP 25 US543-544). Mulciber, Rodolphus, and Rabastan must have escaped too since they were sent to Azkaban (GF 30 US590 and OoP 6 US114) but were at the DoM during the fight (OoP 35 US788). That makes six out of 10. There are still four more Death Eaters we don’t know about, although I think we can assume that Travers was one of them (otherwise he's the only one left in Azkaban). This brings the total of known Death Eaters to 24.

Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 4, 2004 9:23 pm (#196 of 800)

Schoff, that is one of two possible explanations for his absence. The other explanation is that he died in Azkaban.

TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 4, 2004 9:43 pm (#197 of 800)

Schoff, that is one of two possible explanations for his absence. The other explanation is that he died in Azkaban.

Or went mad...

schoff - Aug 4, 2004 10:20 pm (#198 of 800)

Schoff, that is one of two possible explanations for his absence. The other explanation is that he died in Azkaban.

No, I don't think so. Voldemort only announces "Three dead in my service." (GF 33 651) Travers went to Azkaban during the trials (GF 30 US590). If he died there, it would not have been in Voldemort's service.

There are only 3 known Death Eaters who are dead: Regulus Black (OoP 6 112) [Suspected alive], Evan Rosier (GF 30 US589 and GF 27 US531), and Wilkes (GF 27 US531).

Now I will grant you that it is most likely that Regulus Black is not one of the three Voldemort mentioned at the graveyard. If this is the case, then Travers would also not be one of the three, since it is clear he did not die in Voldemort's service--he went to Azkaban instead.

There is a missing Death Eater who is dead, but I do not think it is Travers. He or she is as yet unknown to us (as many Death Eaters are).

rambkowalczyk - Aug 5, 2004 5:20 am (#199 of 800)

I agree that there is a missing Death Eater who died serving Voldemort. It can't be Regulus (unless there is a convoluted back-story we know nothing of) because Sirius says he was killed on Voldemort's orders. I brought this up earlier in the thread thinking that this third person could be easily figured out but he is still a mystery.

schoff - Aug 5, 2004 10:23 am (#200 of 800)
Edited Aug 5, 2004 11:30 am

rambkowalczyk: I did a post a long time ago that figured where all known Death Eaters were during the time of Voldemort's rebirth. (Actually, we were trying to figure out how many I there were to begin with.) Everyone known is accounted for except Jugson (who was at the DoM later and most likely at the Graveyard during the Rebirth). However, there are at least 26 Death Eaters that we know absolutely nothing about, including their names. You might want to check it out: Post 41. Note: The pages before and after it are interesting reads too.

The third missing Death Eater cannot yet be accounted for, unless he is Regulus.

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I Am Used Vlad - Aug 5, 2004 11:19 am (#201 of 800)

Cathedral: Will we be hearing anything from Sirius Black's brother, Regulus, in future books? JK Rowling replies -> Well, he's dead, so he's pretty quiet these days

JKR confirmed that Regulus is, in fact, dead.

Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 6, 2004 10:41 am (#202 of 800)
Edited Aug 6, 2004 11:48 am

Twinkling Blue Eyes, the possibility that Travers went mad had not occurred to me. But, given the nature of the Azkaban under the Dementors it is a possibility

Now onto another subject.

Since, the imprisonment of Malfoy, Rookwood and Mulciber following the raid on the DoM Voldemort, has been deprived of the majority of his most capable subordinates.

If the need for a future operation of the same magnitude as the DoM raid arises what Death Eaters are capable of planning and executing such an assignment?

Avery, Goyle, and Pettigrew are immediately excluded because, they lack the high level of intelligence that the planning such operations require. This leaves Voldemort with two Death Eaters who may have the capacity to plan and execute such operations namely Bellatrix Lestrange and Travers.

However, there exists a third possibility which could connect two statements that J.K. Rowling made.

First, J.K. Rowling said that Voldemort preferred to act through subordinates.

Second, when asked whether Narcissa Malfoy would be playing a more prominent role in future books. J.K. Rowling responded that readers would be seeing more of Narcissa Malfoy in books six and seven.

These two statements as I interpret them seem to indicate that there exists the possibility that Narcissa Malfoy is also a Death Eater.

Best Regards, Nathan

TomProffitt - Aug 6, 2004 10:59 am (#203 of 800)

Don't forget the highly capable DE, Severus Snape, Nathan. With so many DE out of action, He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named may have to use him, even though he believes him to be a well placed spy.

Come to think of it, He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named has all sorts of reasons to activate his sleeper agent.

Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 6, 2004 2:19 pm (#204 of 800)

Tom Proffitt, I excluded Severus Snape and Igor Karkaroff because, their loyalty to Voldemort is debatable. There is not enough information to say with certainty that the faithful servant that has already reentered my service Voldemort refers to is Severus Snape. That line could just as easily have referred to Bartemius Crouch Jr. Who was not exposed until after Harry's return from the graveyard.

TomProffitt - Aug 6, 2004 2:33 pm (#205 of 800)
Edited Aug 6, 2004 3:59 pm

I think Severus was the "one who [the Dark Lord] believes has left [him] forever..."

I think that Severus using his Occlumency and Legilimency has wormed his way back into the good graces of He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named. Otherwise, how could he be the spy for the Order? Conversely, He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named must believe that Severus is his spy in Hogwarts.

Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 6, 2004 2:42 pm (#206 of 800)
Edited Aug 6, 2004 3:46 pm

Tom Proffitt, I apologize I misunderstood. Yes, that is certainly possible. It would definitely have interesting repercussions for Voldemort and it raises the possibility of a counter espionage ring within the community of Death Eaters organized by Severus.

Solitaire - Aug 6, 2004 2:55 pm (#207 of 800)

Well, if Snape is an Animagus, perhaps he using that form to function as a sort of "fly on the wall" with regard to LV. A bat could do that.

TomoÈ - Aug 6, 2004 6:44 pm (#208 of 800)
Edited Aug 6, 2004 7:46 pm

Wasn't Avery in Azkaban as well?

Edit : as for the hint for Narcissa to be DE, she wasn't with Draco at the world cup, she likely was playing with Muggles hidden by her hood.

schoff - Aug 6, 2004 6:57 pm (#209 of 800)
Edited Aug 6, 2004 7:57 pm

Avery was at the graveyard. He's the one who fell before Voldemort and begged for forgiveness. (GF 33 US648-651--I don't have the exact page because I don't have my book with me.)

TomoÈ - Aug 6, 2004 7:00 pm (#210 of 800)

I knew I should be in bed. ^_^ I meant wasn't Avery in the gang that fought Harry and co. and were sent in Azkaban at the end of OoP? Nathan said he was still free like Goyle and Wormtail.

(I going to shot my computer and get some sleep now. Good night ^_~)

schoff - Aug 6, 2004 7:11 pm (#211 of 800)

Ah, sorry Tomoe. No, I don't believe he was. I don't have my book with me but the list is found on OoP 35 US788. Antonin Dolohov, Rabastan Lestrange, Rodolphus Lestrange, Mulciber, Augustus Rookwood, Crabbe, Walden Macnair, Lucius Malfoy, and Nott went to Azkaban. Only Bellatrix escaped. That's 10 total at the DoM, which were split, I believe, into 5 pairs.

Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 6, 2004 9:36 pm (#212 of 800)
Edited Aug 6, 2004 10:41 pm

Tomoe you are correct I was in error. Avery was indeed captured. He was paired with Walden Macnair when they split up.

schoff - Aug 6, 2004 10:09 pm (#213 of 800)

Yep, sorry. I left off Jugson too. Strangely, Goyle was not there, although Crabbe was.

TomoÈ - Aug 7, 2004 4:55 am (#214 of 800)
Edited Aug 7, 2004 5:57 am

Likely Mr. Goyle is thicker than Mr. Crabbe like Gregory is thicker than Vincent. Lucius' squad was short of only one member and they took Crabbe. ^_^

fortuna major - Aug 28, 2004 4:44 pm (#215 of 800)

I don't know how many of you guys have seen the Heath Ledger movie "The Order" but the whole plot surrounds the idea of the "sin eater." When I saw it I was immediately reminded of the Death Eaters.

SIN-EATER, a man who for a payment was believed to take upon himself, by means of food and drink, the sins of a deceased person. The custom was once common in many parts of England and in the highlands of Scotland, and survived until recent years in Wales and the counties of Shropshire and Herefordshire. Usually each village had its official sin-eater to whom notice was given as soon as a death occurred. He at once went to the house, and there, a stool being brought, he sat down in front of the door. A groat, a crust of bread and a bowl of ale were handed him, and after he had eaten and drunk he rose and pronounced the ease and rest of the dead person, for whom he thus pawned his own soul. The earlier form seems to have been more realistic, the sin-eater being taken into the death-chamber, and, a piece of bread and possibly cheese having been placed on the breast of the corpse by a relative, handed to the sin-eater, who ate it in the presence of the dead. The burial-cakes which are still made in parts of rural England, for example Lincolnshire and Cumberland, are almost certainly a relic of sin-eating.

I haven't had a chance to read the whole thread since I'm a newbie, but do we know where she came up with the name "Death Eaters"? The name lends me to believe that a DE would be someone unafraid of death but we know that with Voldie that is certainly not the case. Are his Death Eaters meant to be the ones to suffer death for him so that he can survive?

I guess the word "eater" is what struck me so much, and the fact that the tradition was predominantly in England. Does anybody else see any connections that turn into plausible theories?

TomoÈ - Aug 29, 2004 3:07 pm (#216 of 800)

Pretty interesting fact fortuna major, I never heard of sin-eater before (which mean I didn't watched the movie ^_~).

The Death Eater dying instead of Voldemort, either literally of not, interesting concept, indeed.

Chad Peters - Aug 29, 2004 8:23 pm (#217 of 800)

I dunno. For some reason I've always figured the numbers were far fewer than what's posted here. Myself, I saw there being something around...maybe sixty thousand total wizards in all of the UK.

When it came to the core of Voldy's supporters, I've imagined them something similar to a cult, with a very very small number of supporters, let's say a round 20, and then maybe a score for each one...that'd make what? 400 total Death Eaters?

as to other countries, we don't really hear stories about Voldy breaking out of the UK. Well, Romania doesn't count, but the point is; it seems most if not all of his activity was centralized in one set area. If this is true, I have to wonder WHY?

Solitaire - Aug 29, 2004 9:42 pm (#218 of 800)

I have read this thread pretty quickly, so perhaps I've missed a few things. I have a couple of questions. Perhaps someone can answer them for me.

Catherine Allen says Nott is old. How old might he be if he has a son at Hogwarts? Could he be in Molly & Arthur's generation? Older?

Regarding Uncle Algie's treatment of Neville and possible "bad guy" status ... Could Uncle Algie possibly be the eavesdropper who heard part of the prophecy in the Hog's Head? If so, might he have been testing Neville to find out if he was The One?

Aren't Lucius and Bella the only ones referred to by first name? Might that signify their closeness to LV?

If you check the Pensieve scene in GoF, it seems that Barty Jr. never actually denounced Voldemort. He denied torturing the Longbottoms, using phrases like "I didn't do it!" "I didn't know," "I wasn't involved," and "It wasn't me." He did not deny being a Death Eater or supporter of Voldemort.

Much has been said about the Dark Mark being given/received under the Imperious Curse. Is it possible that the Dark Mark is unable to be given unless someone asks for and accepts it of his free will? Just wondering ...

I am also wondering about Narcissa. Lucius is older than Bella's crowd, so does this mean that Narcissa might be older as well? Perhaps she is the oldest of the three Black sisters. I would think it is just possible that she might have been "otherwise occupied" in the last war, considering Draco's age. Perhaps she might have been unable to fight for Voldemort, being first pregnant with and then a new mom to Draco. Just wondering ...

Okay, it's time for bed! The first day of school comes early tomorrow. Sad

Solitaire

schoff - Aug 29, 2004 9:52 pm (#219 of 800)

Chad Peters: as to other countries, we don't really hear stories about Voldy breaking out of the UK.

Dang. We used to have an entire thread on this. I guess it wasn't archived. LV must have had some influence outside of the UK otherwise all the attention Harry gets from foreigners wouldn't be so dramatic. He'd be a local hero, not an international one.

Solitaire: Catherine Allen says Nott is old. How old might he be if he has a son at Hogwarts? Could he be in Molly & Arthur's generation? Older?

GF describes Nott as "stooping." (33 US651) I think that's where the idea that Nott is old comes from. If Wizards live to be over 100, then Nott theoretically could be a very old dad. Men don't lose that ability as the age, unlike women.

Solitaire: If so, might he have been testing Neville to find out if he was The One?

I am racking my brain trying to figure out how dropping Neville to the ground proves or disproves Neville is The One. I think it only proves that Neville is a wizard and less prone to injury.

TomoÈ - Aug 30, 2004 5:47 am (#220 of 800)
Edited Aug 30, 2004 6:48 am

I don't know for others, but the idea Mr. Nott was old came to me as I read JKR's website :

Raised by a very elderly widower and Death Eater father, Theodore is a clever loner who does not feel the need to join gangs, including Malfoy's.

That sounds like much older than Lucius or Arthur.

Solitaire - Sep 1, 2004 9:59 pm (#221 of 800)

Thank you, TomoÈ. I just wondered ...

Solitaire - Sep 5, 2004 6:28 pm (#222 of 800)
Earlier today I posted on the Snape thread, and Nathan Zimmerman suggested I copy my post here, as he felt it had some analysis pertinent to the DE thread. I've copied it below ...

Do you really think Snape wants (or ever wanted) power? I've mulled this over before, and come up with some different reasons why people might have joined Voldemort's original forces.

1 -- They genuinely believed in the original premise of Salazar Slytherin, that magic should be kept in pure-blood wizarding families. Here we obviously find people like Malfoy and Regulus Black ... and perhaps Snape. But as much as they believed in the pure-blood idea, some were not prepared to kill for it.

# *An additional category, suggested by T Brightwater, should fall here. Brightwater posted the following: I think you left out one category - those who were fully behind Voldemort and agreed with his methods as well as his purpose. I'd put Bellatrix and Crouch Jr. in this category at least.

2 -- Some might have desired power. While I think this might have been a strong lure for some of the original followers, it probably became rapidly apparent that LV wanted the power for himself. Anyone who was too interested in his own power would probably have become a liability and would have been "dealt with."

3 -- There might have been many who craved prestige and the respect of people who had always denied it to them. They may not have wanted power per se, but aligning themselves with a powerful wizard like LV would have given them some "reflected power" and perhaps that respect or deference they craved. I kind of tend to put Snape in this camp at the moment. (it could change)

4 -- Many probably joined Voldemort unwillingly, I am sure. They may have done it to preserve their own skins. They were too cowardly to resist him, and they might have hoped to just keep a low profile and be left alone, not required to do any killing or anything terrible or "important."

The way Peter talked, this may have been the reason he defected originally. But he had too many powerful friends (in the Order) to just hang out quietly in the shadows. Voldemort would have wanted some show of loyalty, such as handing over the Potters. I doubt Peter betrayed them out of hatred (just guessing); it was probably out of cowardice. And when his part in things was discovered in PoA, he had no where to go but back to Voldemort. Then he discovered that there would be retribution.

Going back to Snape ... I can see him joining DEs partly because he believes in the pure-blood cause ... but also because he would like to see people who've looked down at their noses at him all their lives (James and Sirius) treat him with the respect he believes he deserves.

In the beginning, perhaps the DE activities were confined to mild persecution of Muggles and Muggle-borns. Later, however--when Snape began to realize the violent lengths to which Voldemort was prepared to go to assume total power--he decided that neither respect nor prejudice was a good enough reason to kill people.

I have often wondered, too, whether Snape might not have uncovered a plan by Voldemort to kill Dumbledore--or might have been asked to kill Dumbledore himself. Since Dumbledore had probably always treated Snape fairly--I am assuming here, but it seems a fair assumption--Snape might have been horrified. This would have provided a reason to defect, and it would certainly have earned Dumbledore's trust. In return, Dumbledore could have offered Snape sanctuary and a means of livelihood. This could account for the bond of trust between them. Just a lot of speculation, of course ...

Solitaire

EbonyRebel - Sep 6, 2004 4:14 am (#223 of 800)

Solitaire just got ahead of me there! in response to Solitaire’s post, I also think it's possible that Snape joined partly for reflected glory, and also the fact that he believes in the pure-blood prejudice (as can be seen when he calls Lily a Mudblood). I also posted this idea on the Snape thread - that peer pressure may have been the deciding factor. He was only 17, and his group of friends, as Sirius said, nearly all turned out to be.

Nathan Zimmermann - Sep 6, 2004 8:22 am (#224 of 800)

Into the category of Death Eaters that joined unwillingly I would place Avery as well. He seems to me to be somewhat akin in spirit to Peter Pettigrew,

Solitaire - Sep 6, 2004 10:36 am (#225 of 800)

Yes, Avery certainly seems unwilling to be there now, and Voldemort realizes this. As I posted somewhere else (I can't remember), I think joining Voldemort is a lot like joining the Mafia. You don't just quit if it isn't what you thought it would be. Attempting to leave is tantamount to signing one's death warrant.

I believe Snape knows this and also knows the time is coming when he is going to have to face the music. Then again, he may realize that any real future for him apart from Dumbledore and Hogwarts depends on Harry being capable of vanquishing Voldemort. This could also be why he gets so exasperated with Harry. (I just thought of this ... although others have probably gotten here before.)

Solitaire

EbonyRebel - Sep 7, 2004 1:33 pm (#226 of 800)
Edited Sep 7, 2004 2:33 pm

Good point, Solitaire. I think this is sufficient evidence to back up the theory (I can't remember who's theory it was, but it was a good one) that Snape's Boggart is a dead Harry. This would tie in with the fact that Snape loathes Harry, but always does his utmost to protect him.

Solitaire - Sep 7, 2004 9:29 pm (#227 of 800)

That is interesting, Ebony. I hope we get a chance to see Snape's Boggart in the next book!

EbonyRebel - Sep 9, 2004 2:18 am (#228 of 800)

JK said that we'll definitely find out what Snape's Boggart and patronus are in either book six or seven. I can't wait!

I was thinking a bit more about WHY Snape joined the I, and that it was for reflected glory... and this lead me to think, Snape gets recognition and respect in his own right now, in the Order. The order members recognise and praise his abilities (for example Lupin saying that he is an excellent Occlumens, and everyone making noises of interest and excitement when Snape arrives to give a report). Anyway, the significance of this is that Snape no longer has to bask in Voldemort's reflected glory anymore - he's admired and respected now for himself - he doesn't need Voldemort anymore. I think that this could be a valid reason for him to stay loyal to the Order.

El Cronista de Salem - Sep 18, 2004 8:40 am (#229 of 800)

Where was Mr. Crabbe during the Battle of the Department of Mysteries?

There were all the known Death Eaters, without Wormtail and Crabbe. What was doing Crabbe without Goyle, which was in the battle?

Nathan Zimmermann - Sep 18, 2004 9:09 am (#230 of 800)
El Cronista de Salem, a third Death Eater was missing from the Battle of the Department of Mysteries. Travers, the Death Eater who murdered Marlene McKinnon and her family was also missing.

El Cronista de Salem - Sep 18, 2004 9:33 am (#231 of 800)

Hmmm... Travers. But recognize that I more strange that Crabbe wasn't, because he is a little bit more principal than Travers.

In all the cases, very rare strange that Travers wasn't... Any idea?

About Pyrite... Should she be added to the Death Eaters list? Will be say her in the next books?

Tessa's Dad - Sep 19, 2004 6:06 pm (#232 of 800)

After reading several posts in the Lexicon, I had a thought in my mind concerning the Death Eaters and the Dementors. In the ‘Goblet of Fire’ Voldemort calls the Dementors ‘our natural allies.’ Could this be a quasi-symbiotic relationship? The Death Eaters consume some portion of the ‘bodily death’ and the Dementors consume the ‘souls death?’

Together the two groups could eliminate all of their opposition.

Kenny

TwinklingBlueEyes - Sep 19, 2004 6:10 pm (#233 of 800)

Together the two groups could eliminate all of their opposition.

Now that would be a nasty alliance!

TomoÈ - Sep 22, 2004 11:20 pm (#234 of 800)
Edited Sep 23, 2004 12:20 am

Jo -> Snape’s ancestry is hinted at. He was a Death Eater, so clearly he is no Muggle-born, because Muggle-borns are not allowed to be Death Eaters, except in rare circumstances. (Edinburgh book festival)

Who?

Magical Llama - Sep 23, 2004 12:10 am (#235 of 800)
Edited Sep 23, 2004 1:12 am

Hey Tomoe, I have been waiting for someone to post that! I haven't a clue to whom it may be, but thanks for bringing it up.

Sharon Peach wrote: I am fairly sure that Rowling named the Death Eater Wilkes after John Wilkes Booth, the assassin of president Lincoln.

Yes, I read that on a transcript page a while ago. I find it equally fascinating that Cornelius Fudge's middle name is Oswald (as in Lee Harvey Oswald).

TomoÈ - Sep 23, 2004 12:50 am (#236 of 800)

I bet on Wormtail. ^_^

Lee Harvey Oswald ... was it the guy who killed Kennedy?

TomProffitt - Sep 23, 2004 5:52 am (#237 of 800)
Edited Sep 23, 2004 6:52 am

Yes, Oswald is the one who the Warren Commission fingered (gotta allow the conspiracy theorists their bit)as the assassin of JFK. He was then murdered (on live TV I believe) by Jack Ruby.

schoff - Sep 23, 2004 8:36 am (#238 of 800)
Edited Sep 23, 2004 9:38 am

• Avery--unknown, but I would guess yes since he's too much of a screw-up for Voldie to take him in if he was Muggle-born
• Regulus Black--yes
• Crabbe--most likely, since he and his son associate with the Malfoys
• Barty Crouch, Jr.--yes
• Antonin Dolohov--unknown, but he's pretty vicious
• Goyle--most likely, since he and his son associate with the Malfoys
• Jugson--unknown
• Igor Karkaroff--unknown, but most likely yes
• Bellatrix Lestrange--yes
• Rabastan Lestrange--yes (Can you see Bella married to a Muggle-born?)
• Rodolphus Lestrange--yes
• Walden Macnair--unknown, but he's pretty vicious
• Lucius Malfoy--yes
• Mulciber--unknown
• Nott--unknown, but honestly, I'm leaning towards Not
• Peter Pettigrew--unknown, possibly not. It's possible his value comes from what he could give Voldie as opposed to his pure-blood status
• Augustus Rookwood--unknown, but I would think yes
• Evan Rosier--unknown, but I would think yes. Rosier was a spy put to death during the Cold War, IIRC (can't look it up right now). He's just got that kind of name.
• Severus Snape—evidentially (or evidently?) yes
• Travers--unknown, as is nearly everything else about him
• Wilkes--unknown, but I would guess yes. Wilkes was the killer of Abraham Lincoln.

Discuss!

TomoÈ - Sep 23, 2004 12:38 pm (#239 of 800) Reply
Edited Sep 23, 2004 1:46 pm

(Archivist’s note: In order for the info. below to be easy to read, I inserted it into a table. Otherwise, the information would be spread across the page with various non-uniform space breaks. ~Potteraholic)

Here's my take :

Name	Parentage	Notes
Avery	W?	He was in the Lestranges’ gang, so he's not Muggle-born
Regulus Black	W	Canon
Crabbe	W?	His son is in Draco's gang
Barty Crouch, Jr	W	Canon
Antonin Dolohov	?	Muggle-borns tend to have very common English surname
Goyle	W?	His son is in Draco's gang
Jugson	?	I don't remember who he is -_-'
Igor Karkaroff	W	He was Headmaster of a school that accept only pure-bloods
Bellatrix Lestrange	W	Canon
Rabastan Lestrange	W	Bella wouldn't be on the tapestry if not
Rodolphus Lestrange	W	Bella wouldn't be on the tapestry if not
Walden Macnair	?	He works for the MoM, it doesn't sounds like they are keen to hire Muggle-born
Lucius Malfoy	W	Canon
Mulciber	?	I don't remember who he is -_-'
Nott	W?	Draco consider Theodore as his equal, the Nott family has to be pure-blood
Peter Pettigrew	?	He wasn't in Slytherin and no Marauder thought he was the traitor
Augustus Rookwood	?	He works for the MoM, it doesn't sounds like they are keen to hire Muggle-born
Evan	W?	was in the Lestranges’ gang, so he's not Muggle-born
Severus Snape	W?	He was in the Lestranges’ gang, so he's not Muggle-born
Travers	?	I don't remember who he is -_-'
Wilkes	W?	He was in the Lestranges’ gang, so he's not Muggle-born

My possible candidates are : Jugson, Mulciber, Pettigrew and Travers.

Nathan Zimmermann - Sep 23, 2004 3:09 pm (#240 of 800) Reply[/b][/Size]

Tomoe, Travers murdered Marlene McKinnon and her family.

Best Regards, Nathan

TomoÈ - Sep 23, 2004 3:25 pm (#241 of 800)

Thanks Nathan (I'm much better with the child than the DE it seems ^_^).

Nathan Zimmermann - Sep 23, 2004 3:39 pm (#242 of 800)

Schoff, and Tomoe I like the lists you both complied. They have given me much to ponder.

ex-FAHgeek - Sep 23, 2004 7:57 pm (#243 of 800)
Edited by Sep 23, 2004 8:58 pm

---quote--- Draco consider Theodore as his equal, the Nott family has to be pure-blood... ---end quote---

Not only that, but JKR says he's pure-blooded on her website...

...we rarely see Draco talking to anybody he considers a real equal, and he is forced to see Theodore as such, because Theodore is just as pure-blooded as he is...

There shouldn't be any question mark for him.

TomProffitt - Sep 23, 2004 8:23 pm (#244 of 800)

I suppose we have to consider the possibility that Crabbe and Goyle, Srs, are half-bloods or the children of half-bloods. They are relegated to the roles of lackeys and henchmen (both the children and adults). It may not be their lack of intellect which has forced them into the background.

TomoÈ - Sep 23, 2004 8:52 pm (#245 of 800)

Thanks for the quote ex-FAHgeek, I was too lazy to check over Jo's website.

Tom, they could be half-blood instead of pure-blood, that's why I put a question mark beside their names. Anyway, they can't be Muggle-borns, their sons wouldn't be so close to Draco if they were.

schoff - Sep 23, 2004 10:09 pm (#246 of 800)

They are relegated to the roles of lackeys and henchmen (both the children and adults).

I can't see Voldemort accepting any half or Muggle-born unless they were exceptionally useful. I have yet to see Crabbe or Goyle as anything other than brute strength. Voldemort can get plenty pure-bloods for that role.

A half or Muggle-born would either have to have brains (Rookwood?) or information (Pettigrew?) to join the Death Eaters.

TomoÈ - Sep 24, 2004 10:10 pm (#247 of 800)
Edited by Catherine Jan 14, 2007 11:19 am

Good point schoff, Crabbe and Goyle are too replaceable to be anything but pure-blood.

The more I think of it, the more Wormtail seems likely. Voldemort really treats him badly, even if he was the one who saved him.

EDIT: I substituted the words "treats him badly" instead of another phrase that used an unacceptable word.--Catherine

Wendelin the Weird - Sep 25, 2004 12:05 am (#248 of 800)

A few interesting tidbits here:

Snape & DADA: Relating to Snape and his duel role as a presumably trusted spy on both sides, why does Dumbledore not ever give him the chance to teach DADA even when it appears that there aren’t many qualified professors in this area? Does Dumbledore really trust him?

Does he suspect that Snape would not be open-minded enough to teach Harry defense or even undermine his chances to succeed in Defense when he is known to be the one who will vanquish the Dark Lord?

Does Snape even know that Harry is 'the one'? (we would assume to some degree he does.) Is it not possible also that Snape is the one who overheard the prophesy at the Hogs Head Pub years ago when DD interviewed Trelawney and perhaps part of the reason DD trusts him is that he did not fully reveal all the information about the finer points to Lord Thingy?

JK said that we'll definitely find out what Snape's Boggart and patronus are in either book six or seven. I can't wait!

This seems to suggest to me that we will be seeing a lot more of Dementors obviously, which also suggests that the captured Death Eaters in Book 5 may easily escape Azkaban yet again if the Dementors return to ally themselves with the Dark Lord.

Dolohov is a character in War & Peace by Tolstoy who is described as psychopathic. A wealthy noble and not a high aristocrat, Dolohov was a captain in the Russian army, banding together a group of peasants to fight the French in the Napoleonic war, fighting with guerilla warfare as the need arose. In one particular point of the story he had to choose between marching a group of prisoners of war to their deaths across the countryside or to just kill them and not have to endanger any of his men with the journey and send the prisoners on to what was already their fate. He chose to kill them all, save his own men and not fret over being the hand of death to the prisoners where his colleague did not want their deaths hanging on his conscience.

I think that’s a good parallel to Antonin Dolohov's character - he is nasty and dangerous and most likely very pragmatic about killing to achieve his mission. Just something I thought I'd add to the discussion. I’m guessing that as an avid reader JKR is a fan of Tolstoy and certainly has read War & Peace - I don't think its coincidence that this name was used for a character who is a DE. Smile

Solitaire - Sep 25, 2004 1:06 am (#249 of 800)

Wendelin, I've often wondered if Snape could have been the spy who overheard part of the prophecy in the Hog's Head--before he was tossed out. My colleagues at work insist it was Mundungus--citing that as the reason he is no longer welcome there--and a couple of my students vote for Wormtail. The reason "the finer points" of the prophecy were not revealed, however, is not due to any nobility on the part of the hearer; it is simply that they were not heard. Remember that the eavesdropper was detected and tossed out on his ear before he could hear the entire prophecy. He could only reveal the limited amount of the prophecy that he had heard.

As to Snape as DADA teacher, after seeing how "well" he was able to master his feelings and handle Harry's Occlumency lessons, I would not be too inclined to put him in the DADA position, if I were Dumbledore. In fact, he would be my VERY last resort.

I like your connection between Tolstoy's character and Antonin Dolohov. I think it fits very well.

Solitaire

Wendelin the Weird - Sep 25, 2004 2:01 am (#250 of 800)
Edited Sep 25, 2004 3:11 am

Thanks for the rebuttal Solitaire. Smile

I thought that Mundungus was tossed out prior to the time of the prophesy though (per the Mundungus discussion in his thread). I’m wondering exactly how one gets up and tosses someone out of a pub in the middle of one of Trelawney's prophesies? I mean, its not like he could just say "Hold on a tick, Sybill, I need to kick this peeper out the door. Be right back". You know what I mean? There is a sense of urgency about her visions that he would have missed a bunch himself unless someone else was there doing the kicking. Which of course would mean that not only Albus, Trelawney, and the peeper would have known about the prophesy, but whoever did the kicking out of the peeper. (I’m confusing myself with this ha ha)

Certainly the Hogs Head wasn’t a very safe place to have a prophesy come out, they were lucky that only one eavesdropper was there to overhear.

Yes, I suppose you’re right about his insistency to badger Harry because of his hate for James. But it would seem that if he would subject Harry to Occlumency lessons with Snape (which were in year 5 more crucial than DADA under Umbridge’s pathetic lessons) he would want Snape in the position rather than a Ministry goat who wants to prevent any real teaching being done. I would call that a last resort - she couldn’t have done too much damage as a Potions professor, could she?

And if I had to choose a favorite Death Eater it would be Dolohov ha haa... I know, it sounds twisted to have a favorite psychopathic killer, but he seems to me to be one of the more dangerous and serious of the group - not to be taken lightly. I hope to see more of his character developed in the near future, I’m sure it will be enlightening. He after all nearly killed Hermione, kicked Neville in the nose and broke it, broke Neville's wand and came very near to getting the prophesy. Even without a voice he got the message across very clearly to Harry to hand it over or he would have got the same as her. If it wasn’t for the bumbling baby-headed colleague he could has likely gotten it. Then later he managed to get his wand in Harry's face a second time and blasted Mad-Eye Moody a good one! (He also made Neville dance and slashed Harry's face - he did the most visible damage of any of them really, other than Bella.)

He keeps his focus and is a very dangerous no nonsense type - he doesn’t give in to the impatience of Bella, even after having spent more years in Azkaban than her.

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Solitaire - Sep 25, 2004 2:28 am (#251 of 800)

Actually, Wendelin, I agree with a lot of what you said ... and the things I don't know about just yet sound interesting enough to consider and are certainly not without merit.

Your point about tossing out the eavesdropper during the prophecy is another one I've pondered before. It must have been rather an awkward business. It makes me think there is even MORE to the prophecy than we already know. Perhaps, though, I just feel that because of all those ellipses ... BTW, I am guessing that Aberforth--Dumbledore's brother--was the Bouncer that night.

I agree with you about Dolohov. He is deadlier than Bella because he is more focused. He doesn't stop to get his "jollies" from taunting his victims first. Bella played with them too much--to her misfortune--and she will probably be seriously "disciplined" for it.

Solitaire

Wendelin the Weird - Sep 25, 2004 2:53 am (#252 of 800)

That’s what I was thinking as well...Aberforth would know of the prophesy, kicked the peeper out and missed the crucial bits. I wonder if Aberforth is all that trustworthy? I mean, he was in the one picture, but who knows if that was around the time of the prophesy? It was before Harry was born of course (or so I would imagine) and there is no mention of him being at any of the new meetings, or even of Albus speaking to him often... All that we know is that he has a fondness for goats and liquor, and is possibly illiterate. ha ha

What do you mean by 'all of those ellipses'? I’m just very curious how there could be more to the prophesy than we know.

So if the Death Eaters escape Azkaban again, which most likely they will, and if Narcissa has a larger role to play, it will be a most interesting year! Not to mention the impending attacks of allies like the Dementors - what would Voldemort's next avenue of attack be? Control of the Ministry? Do you think he wants political control over the Wizarding World as well as immortality? I could see that being his next attack then bringing in the Giants, Goblins and Dementors as his army to enforce his laws.

I’ve always suspected that Narcissa was simply a supporter and not a Death Eater, but I have to say that thinking back about her not being present with Draco during the Muggle torture at the World Cup that she must at least have a mask - which I would imagine puts her in as one of them. Don’t know though... I wonder how much of Malfoy's political lobbying will help him now, or if the Malfoys will lose face and prominence now that he’s a criminal.

TwinklingBlueEyes - Sep 25, 2004 6:53 am (#253 of 800)

he would want Snape in the position rather than a Ministry goat who wants to prevent any real teaching being done. I would call that a last resort - she couldn’t have done too much damage as a Potions professor, could she? Just a note, Dumbledore had no control over the positioning of Umbridge, that was entirely the MoM’s doing.

Ever wonder where the escaped I are hiding out? After all, they are not free to just resume their lives and jobs now.

Nathan Zimmermann - Sep 25, 2004 7:10 am (#254 of 800)

Solitaire, Dung was banned from the Hogshead in 1975. So if it was Dung who overheard the Prophecy he would have to have been there in disguise like he was in OotP.

Weeny Owl - Sep 25, 2004 8:32 am (#255 of 800)

Aside from JKR needing Umbridge as a plot device, she did say that that Dumbledore thought it might bring out the worst in Snape if he were to have the Defense job. Dumbledore might be worried that if Snape started teaching anything related to the Dark Arts, he might decide to do more than just Defense. If he started practicing dark spells, he could end up back with Voldemort. It could be similar to having an alcoholic work as a bartender.

Those are excellent points about Dolohov. While Bella seems to be so psychotic that she easily loses control, he seems more calculating and focused. Since we've not heard anything about Karkaroff lately, and since he named names before the Wizengamot, I'm wondering if he'll be the one who ends up killing Karkaroff.

It was mentioned that Mundungus was kicked out of the twenty years before, and it is certainly possible that he sneaked back in and overheard the Prophecy.

Nathan Zimmermann - Sep 25, 2004 11:54 am (#256 of 800)

Weeny Owl, I agree if Karkaroff is not dealt with by Voldemort personally. Dolohov, Rookwood, and Travers would have sufficient motive to kill Karkaroff themselves.

Wendelin the Weird - Sep 25, 2004 1:08 pm (#257 of 800)

Ahhh yes, of course the plot device. And you’re right about the alcoholic/dark arts idea - although defense and counter curses wouldn't be quite the same, but in the higher levels I imagine they do study the hexes themselves to know what they're up against.

As for Dumbledore having no say where Umbridge was placed, the reason she was placed in DADA is because Dumbledore failed to hire a new professor in time for the start of the year. Had he moved Snapers over to the job it would have left an opening for Potions instead. That was my point, but yeah, I think it was mainly plot related.

I RP as Dolohov so I am extremely partial to the nasty git. Hee hee I’m sure he would love nothing more than to hex Karkaroff (or much worse). I expect Igor will turn up before the end of the series, I imagine he has a role yet to play in all of this madness, as does Viktor Krum.

I wonder which Death Eaters other than Dolohov were responsible for killing the Prewetts? It said a group of DEs killed them...

Weeny Owl - Sep 25, 2004 2:11 pm (#258 of 800)

As for Dumbledore having no say where Umbridge was placed, the reason she was placed in DADA is because Dumbledore failed to hire a new professor in time for the start of the year. Had he moved Snapers over to the job it would have left an opening for Potions instead. That was my point, but yeah, I think it was mainly plot related.

It is interesting that out of all the people in the Wizarding World, Dumbledore couldn't find anyone to take over Defense. Is everyone so afraid of the alleged jinx on the job or did Dumbledore allow it to happen so he could see what the Ministry and Umbridge were up to? Maybe he wanted to draw out Death Eaters who hadn't been caught?

Solitaire - Sep 25, 2004 3:12 pm (#259 of 800)

That Dumbledore is one crafty dude! ;-) It could be as you say, Weeny Owl. LOL @ Wendelin calling Snape "Snapers." Does Gina have competition?

Regarding Karkaroff and Krum ... if the Malfoys were to hot-foot it over to the continent and put Draco in Durmstrang this year, that could open a way to bring K&K back into the action. Actually, Malfoy would probably be the one designated to kill Karkaroff in that scenario, wouldn't he? Or does Malfoy ever dirty his hands with actual killing?

Does anyone think it is even a remote possibility that Karkaroff might seek sanctuary at Hogwarts? Could it happen if the Malfoys turned up in Durmstrang? If so, perhaps he could teach DADA or something else. No, I don't really suppose I see it happening. But if he has truly left Voldemort, he certainly is vulnerable, and he might feel Dumbledore could offer him more protection than he is likely to find on his own--assuming he is still alive to worry about it. Just musing ...

Solitaire

Wendelin the Weird - Sep 25, 2004 9:20 pm (#260 of 800)
Edited Sep 25, 2004 10:24 pm

Ha haaa.. naw, I’m not 'a wooing ole Snapers, I just like to make up nicknames that are 'out there'. Its a real issue for me, kinda like Snapers' addiction to dark arts - I create names like Moldywart, and Roo (Rodolphus) and Annie (Antonin Dolohov)...and of course the ever present Lucie (Lucius) and Dumblydork. Wink

*maniacal laughter*

Hmmm... I’m not sure if Lucie is the killing type, in the CoS movie they made him out to be in the sock episode at the end, but it isn’t canon of course. He seems like if it came down to it he would, but he would push it off on his cronies if he could, unless it was someone he reeeeaally hated. Just my impression of him anyway. He seems like he would love to have Arthur at the tip of his wand.

So I imagine that as a rat snitch Karkaroff couldn't return to Lord Thingy's service if he wanted to - unless he wanted to mysteriously disappear having been killed off by the other DEs. Wink

Krum certainly found him annoying it seemed the way he fawned over him, but as nice as Krum was to Hermione, it still bothers me a little - something about Krum makes me uncomfortable and I have a sneaking suspicion that he really isn’t the 'misunderstood bad guy turned good guy' but really more of a 'bad guy playing good guy for the plot and then going bad again'. But then of course if you are an international Quidditch star why would you need to join up with some far off Dark Lord in Britain? Dunno.. I would like to know more about what he and Hermione have been talking about though. I wonder if she has let loose any info about Harry to him. I mean, she is a wise cookie but when it comes to her emotions it can weaken her a bit it seems.

Oh! And I thought after rereading the DoM Battle last night that it was rather funny that after the DE gets his head turned back to infancy and Hermione has that silly tantrum about 'You can't hurt a baby!' that the only thing that saved Harry and Neville from Dolohov in the next room after she was injured was the baby-headed DE coming into the room wailing and swinging his fists. Now is that just luck or was it meant to be? *giggles* That Hermione is even right about goofy stuff like baby-headed DEs.

Magical Llama - Sep 26, 2004 12:24 am (#261 of 800)
Edited Sep 26, 2004 1:31 am

Solitaire wrote: ... I've often wondered if Snape could have been the spy who overheard part of the prophecy in the Hog's Head--before he was tossed out. My colleagues at work insist it was Mundungus--citing that as the reason he is no longer welcome there--and a couple of my students vote for Wormtail.

The individual who gave LV the limited version of the prophecy was partially responsible for LV's thirteen year demise. I can't see LV being too pleased with that person -- Snape or Dung seem like reasonable candidates. I believe that the informer may have been Karkaroff - he is absolutely terrified of LV's return, and he acts like a hunted man.

Solitaire, what HP books do your students read over the course of their school year?

Solitaire - Sep 26, 2004 7:10 am (#262 of 800)
Edited Sep 26, 2004 8:14 am

Llama, sadly, I cannot teach HP at our school. There are many parents who think the books are inappropriate for their children to read. However, many of my students and colleagues are HP fans, so we do have opportunities to discuss the books.

I teach junior high language arts, and my students are the ones who turned me onto the books in the first place. Every once in a while--after we would cover some element of character or plot in class--a student would come up to me at recess and ask me if Voldemort was a round character or if Hermione being Unpetrified at the end of CoS was part of the denouement. Unfortunately, I couldn't answer, since I'd never read any of the books! But I was so pleased that they were making the transfer of class info to personal reading!

Eventually, I began to see more and more of the kids toting HP novels around and reading them during SSR time in class--their own copies, too, not those from the library! In fact, they would complain because the library copies were always checked out and there was a waiting list! Parents had also begun ordering the sets through our Scholastic book orders.

Finally, at the end of the 2002-2003 school year, I decided I simply had to read these books, since kids who'd never voluntarily picked up a book before were reading voraciously. I ordered the first four novels through Scholastic (OotP had not yet come out) and figured I'd plow my way through them during the summer. Hmph! I sprinted through them in less than 10 days, and the rest is history. I became completely addicted. I am a "Potterhead."

Solitaire

Edit: Actually, Llama, you have just given me an idea. Each semester, I must come up with two electives to teach. I may talk to my principal and ask if I can do a HP elective, where we read and discuss the literary aspects of the books. It would have to be by permission, but maybe he would let me do it ... Thanks for the brainwave!

Wendelin the Weird - Sep 26, 2004 9:12 am (#263 of 800)

I believe that the informer may have been Karkaroff - he is absolutely terrified of LV's return, and he acts like a hunted man.

Isn’t the reason he acts like a hunted man because he ratted out all the Death Eaters to save his own hide? Even the first time we see him in GoF in the Pensieve he has already started spilling names so it would explain why he is always so nervous. I imagine he may not have been openly disloyal to the Dark Lord when he was still in power but was dead afraid he'd wind up in Azkaban when he was supposedly killed by the Boy Who Lived. I don’t think he'd be brave enough to be a spy personally, he seems more like a Wormtail who grabs onto a powerful wizards coattails and follows orders.

Although it is interesting that of all people he talks openly to Snape! Perhaps its as mentioned earlier about Avery that Snape might have a group of friends on the inside that aren’t necessarily all that loyal to their master - sort of a hidden rebellion one might say. Snape’s character is hard to pin down.

How is it that Malfoy gets on so well with Snapers if they all suspect he is a spy for Dumbledore? I mean, it would seem obvious after he used the counter-curse on Quirrell and tried to thwart his attempts at the SS/PS. He must somehow have gained Malfoys trust as well by doing something to prove his loyalties still lie with the Death Eaters, right? Or am I wrong? It confuses me at times...

Solitaire - Sep 26, 2004 10:06 am (#264 of 800)

LOL Wendelin! I think a lot of us are frequently confused about Snape! I personally waffle about his loyalties quite often. As to the DEs, I'm not sure they suspect him of spying for Dumbledore. It is quite possible that Lucius believes he is just pretending to be loyal to Dumbledore but really answers to Voldemort.

Then again, it is quite possible that Lucius doesn't really care about Snape's loyalties and assumes Snape is like himself--loyal to whomever it is most convenient to be loyal to.

Frankly, I sometimes wonder about Lucius' loyalties, and I suspect Voldemort does, as well. After all, Lucius was quick to plead the Imperius Curse the first time around, and he didn't exactly bother looking for his Dark Lord, did he? Don't get me wrong, though. I think Lucius is thoroughly evil, and at the moment he gives every indication of being quite loyal to Voldemort. But I suspect his loyalties would vanish in a split-second if a stronger, more appealing, and certainly more beneficial option appeared.

I can even see Lucius pursuing power, now that the extent of his evil involvement is known. When his loyalties were unknown to the general WW, it was to his benefit to remain the "power behind the throne," so to speak. Now it may be to his benefit to be ON that throne. Depending on how Voldemort deals with Lucius--leaving him to languish in Azkaban or setting him free--and the other captured DEs, does anyone think mutiny within the ranks of the DEs is a possibility? Or would that play havoc with the prophecy and so be out of the question? Just posing some ideas to ponder ...

Solitaire

Weeny Owl - Sep 26, 2004 10:24 am (#265 of 800)

But I suspect his loyalties would vanish in a split-second if a stronger, more appealing, and certainly more beneficial option appeared.

I've often thought that many of the Death Eaters are that way, with some exceptions such as the Lestranges and the others who were in Azkaban. The ones who managed to plead the Imperius Curse are loyal only to themselves.

As for Snape, we won't know until JKR tells us. Read the Snape thread. There are tons of debates about his role in the basic scheme of things. My take is that Quirrell wanted the stone, Snape had no way of knowing Voldemort was involved, and that's how he can cover his backside on that one.

I've wondered the same thing about Malfoy, Solitaire. He wants power, and if he can grab it, he will.

Solitaire - Sep 26, 2004 12:17 pm (#266 of 800)

Weeny Owl: My take is that Quirrell wanted the stone, Snape had no way of knowing Voldemort was involved, and that's how he can cover his backside on that one.

That is probably true. I've often wondered to what extent Snape was able to work out what was going on with Quirrell.

Remember the welcoming feast at Harry's first night at Hogwarts. Snape is talking to Quirrell when he looks past his turban and directly into Harry's eyes. At precisely that moment, Harry's scar burns and his hand flies to his head.

In the movie, we see Snape look puzzled as he almost imperceptibly turns his head to look in Quirrell's direction. By that time, Quirrell has his back to Harry and almost appears to be bent over talking to someone. THAT makes sense NOW, because we know Harry's scar probably hurt due to Voldemort saying or doing something--or laughing--while he is in the back of Quirrell's head. The book, however, says Snape doesn't look at him again during the feast.

I have often wondered whether Snape suspected WHY Quirrell wanted that stone. Snape is no dummy, and he IS very suspicious. It would be interesting to know WHEN Quirrell began wearing that turban. I can't remember ... are we told?

Back to the DEs ... I agree about Bella. I think she is in it for the long haul. But are there any DEs you can think of who might jump ship completely? What about those who would like to set themselves up in power ... (besides Lucius)?

Solitaire

TomoÈ - Sep 26, 2004 12:30 pm (#267 of 800)
Edited Sep 26, 2004 1:31 pm

The turban was a present from a local prince in ... Timbuktu? ... anyway, for getting rid of a bunch of zombies there.

legolas - Sep 26, 2004 12:32 pm (#268 of 800)
Edited Sep 26, 2004 1:32 pm

Sounds like a good excuse and nobody would really question it. Was that Quirrell’s first year back from his travels?

Solitaire - Sep 26, 2004 1:41 pm (#269 of 800)

I'm just wondering if he only began wearing the turban when Voldemort took up residence on the back of his head.

TomProffitt - Sep 26, 2004 1:58 pm (#270 of 800)
Edited Sep 26, 2004 2:58 pm

I'm just wondering if he only began wearing the turban when Voldemort took up residence on the back of his head. --- Solitaire

In the Leaky Cauldron when Harry first meets Prof Quirrell, the professor is wearing the turban and shakes Harry's hand. In the movie Quirrell avoided the touch, but it says explicitly in the book that the handshake took place.

In the final confrontation before the Mirror of Erised Quirrell informs Harry, "He does not forgive mistakes easily. When I failed to steal the stone from Gringotts, he was most displeased. He punished me ... decided he would have to keep a closer watch on me...."

Voldemort did not reside on the back of Quirrell’s head prior to the Gringotts break in as evidenced by the handshake and Quirrell’s admission. After the break in as evidenced by the scar pain at the welcome feast and Quirrell’s admission Lord Voldemort was present.

Ergo the turban predates Lord Voldemort "possessing" Quirrell. The "possession" took place sometime between the Gringotts break in and the first day of school.

Weeny Owl - Sep 26, 2004 2:04 pm (#271 of 800)
Edited Sep 26, 2004 3:06 pm

But are there any DEs you can think of who might jump ship completely? What about those who would like to set themselves up in power ... (besides Lucius)?

I don't think there are as many Death Eaters who are loyal to Voldemort as there are Death Eaters who just want to be associated with someone who has power and be able to terrorize the wizarding community with how scary they are. There are probably only a small percentage of Death Eaters who are fanatics about the cause, and while they are scary in their determination, they also make the same mistakes Voldemort does. Their arrogance will be their downfall.

The ones who are similar to Lucius Malfoy are the ones who should be feared more in some ways. They're cold, calculating, and out only for themselves. Self-preservation is a great motivator.

The Death Eaters who didn't land in Azkaban had the world by the tail until Voldemort returned. I doubt if they were too happy about it because while he was gone they were free to do whatever they wanted, but now they have to answer to him.

schoff - Sep 26, 2004 2:07 pm (#272 of 800)
Edited Sep 26, 2004 3:10 pm

TomProffitt: In the Leaky Cauldron when Harry first meets Prof Quirrell, the professor is wearing the turban and shakes Harry's hand.

No, Quirrell is never mentioned as wearing a turban in The Leaky Cauldron (CH5 US68-71). Harry doesn't note the turban until the Welcoming Feast. In fact, Harry calls it "peculiar." (Ch7 US122) This indicates to me that the turban is new and he started wearing it after Voldemort took residence in the back of his head.

TomProffitt - Sep 26, 2004 2:11 pm (#273 of 800)

I guess I didn't escape all of the movie contamination myself.

Solitaire - Sep 26, 2004 2:39 pm (#274 of 800)

Pardon the question, but I am curious about whether Voldemort bore some sort of smell. I realize that sounds funny, but hear me out.

I don't remember the exact places in the book, but a "funny smell" is mentioned a few times in the book with regard to Quirrell. I can't find the spot, but I thought I remembered the Weasley twins say it is he has that turban stuffed full of garlic to ward off vampires. We now know THAT is not what was in his turban.

Down at the Mirror of Erised, we read again, "Harry breathed in the funny smell that seemed to come from Quirrell's turban." Could Voldemort possibly have some vile odor?

Solitaire

Nathan Zimmermann - Sep 26, 2004 3:43 pm (#275 of 800)
Edited Sep 26, 2004 4:44 pm

Solitaire, if Voldemort emitted some form of odor. I would suspect that it would be an odor of death and decay.

Solitaire - Sep 26, 2004 4:17 pm (#276 of 800)

Thanks, Nathan. That certainly sounds right to me, as the Dementors are always described as smelling like decay. I can't find the reference to Quirrell and garlic by the Weasleys, but I am sure I didn't dream it! I've wondered about the odor ever since the troll incident. I believe the troll smelled pretty foul, too.

legolas - Sep 26, 2004 10:56 pm (#277 of 800)

Alternatively I wonder if drinking Unicorn Blood would make you smell? After all you are meant to be cursed and have a half life after drinking it.

Wendelin the Weird - Sep 27, 2004 12:25 am (#278 of 800)

Ooooh interesting comments here!

Solitaire, your take on Malfoy is right on. It struck something in me that I don't recall ever reading about in the Lucie thread.

Lucius had Tom Riddle's diary, of course we know this, and we've had some discussions on how he got it, but has anyone wondered if perhaps he wasn't using it himself to communicate with the young Tom Riddle during Voldemort's absence? I know Tom mentioned in the CoS that he knew of Harry through Ginny pouring her heart out to him, but would it be beyond belief that perhaps a loyal follower who was keeping some of his old school things might communicate with him as well?

In one sense with Lucius I feel the same - that he is mainly out for himself, but in another sense I think he has stuck true to his ideals all the time he was out of Azkaban and so has in a way continued to do the Dark Lord's work for him whether or not he actively sought him out.

As for Voldie's awful stench, I just imagined it was because Quirrell’s head was practically rotting where the face was growing on the back like some foul fungus. Interesting questions though!

As for others jumping ship, I suspect Macnair is in it for the long haul, and Dolohov, Malfoy was certainly keeping to Voldemort's plan and keeping his head on, but I think he is so driven by power and money that it drives him to serve Voldemort. Probably the same for many of the others who seem to be the most motivated Death Eaters - they all want to have a top spot on the day of reckoning so to speak.

Weeny Owl - Sep 27, 2004 12:29 am (#279 of 800)

In one sense with Lucius I feel the same - that he is mainly out for himself, but in another sense I think he has stuck true to his ideals all the time he was out of Azkaban and so has in a way continued to do the Dark Lord's work for him whether or not he actively sought him out.

I'm sure he's stuck to his ideals, but in many ways it's easier for someone to work behind the scenes with a focus on the main bad guy. With Voldemort outed, even if Malfoy hadn't ended up in Azkaban, he'd still have to tread carefully. I just get the feeling that Malfoy doesn't care who the big guy is as long as the objectives (getting rid of Muggles, Muggle-borns, Dumbledore, and Harry Potter) are accomplished. I feel that way mainly because he had more control in the Department of Mysteries than Bella had.

Madame Pomfrey - Sep 29, 2004 8:07 am (#280 of 800)

Solitaire. The Weasley twins do mention the smell of garlic. SS, ch 8, "The Potions Master" pg 167. I had asked this same question on the L.V./Tom Riddle thread because the Quirrell action figure doll which switches to LV by twisting the head around comes with a rope of garlic that is draped over his shoulder. It kind of goes with the LV is a vampire discussion on another thread. If Quirrell was possessed he might have been trying to repel LV if in fact he(LV)is a vampire. Maybe it was one of the steps he took to achieve immortality.

Solitaire - Sep 30, 2004 9:28 pm (#281 of 800)

Thank you, Madame Pomfrey! I had looked and looked, and was beginning to think I'd lost my mind ... or else had read about the turban before going to bed one night and just dreamed the garlic part! LOL

Hm ... Well, Quirrell DID meet Voldemort in a part of the world known for Vampires and other scary things. Possibly he agreed to bring LV back in exchange for not being "vamped" ... maybe?

Solitaire

Eponine - Oct 4, 2004 4:38 pm (#282 of 800)

hh: He's use to being at the top and having everyone else lick his muddy boots and be grateful for the privilege. It must have gone against his grain to have to bow and scrape before a half-blood nobody.

Boy, did you nail Malfoy! Do you suppose all of the DEs knew Voldemort was a half-blood? If not, do you suppose they all know it now? I know he mentioned his Muggle father in the graveyard, but wasn't that before the DEs arrived? Harry mentioned it in the DoM, but who actually heard him say it? I have no books here to check ...

Question: If they didn't know it before and DO know it now, how many will stay loyal to him (as loyal as a DE ever is), and how many will abandon him? Will it matter?

Solitaire from the Lucius Malfoy thread

I thought this was a very interesting question. I think if any of the I know that LV is a half-blood, then some of them may simply see him as a means to an end. He wants to get rid of the Muggle-borns and half-bloods and purify the Wizarding race. Some of the I like Lucius Malfoy may be willing to overlook his heritage in order to achieve that purity. My belief is that Malfoy does know LV's blood status, but that it is not a well known fact among the other Death Eaters. Bellatrix probably doesn't know. At least, I'm assuming that from her reaction to Harry in the DoM. I wonder how she would react to the truth. I tend to think that she might refuse to believe it, or she would feel extremely betrayed. I am very interested in what Bellatrix would do if she learned LV was not a pure-blood.

Solitaire - Oct 4, 2004 7:03 pm (#283 of 800)
Edited Oct 4, 2004 8:06 pm

Thanks, Eponine. You make some good points ... and in so doing raise some new questions!

You mention some DEs possibly knowing Voldemort's history but putting it aside and seeing him as a means to an end--purifying the Wizarding race. The fact that he is a half-blood and such a powerful wizard, however, flies in the face of everything he has pushed.

And what happens when the DEs either accomplish or abandon this end? Do they abandon the Dark Lord? We have frequently said that there is no resigning from the DEs. But what if ALL of the DEs abandoned him? Then what? Would he still be THE Dark Lord, if he had no one over whom to BE Lord?

This brings up yet another issue--a fascinating one. Exactly how many of the most powerful wizards of the past 1000 years (both good and evil, but especially those who pushed Slytherin's "noble work") were pure-bloods? Is anyone besides me interested in knowing this statistic?

In the end, does anyone believe it possible that some of the major DEs may abandon the pure-blood mania and leave the Dark Lord, opting to work for his defeat instead? Is his fight one that can be won? Is his defeat and the defeat of the pure-blood mania something that can ever be accomplished?

Just questions ... I honestly do not know what I think.

Solitaire

Eponine - Oct 4, 2004 7:26 pm (#284 of 800)

If any I do see LV as a means to an end, then I wonder if they would abandon him once that end is accomplished. They might just continue to ignore his heritage in favor of his actions.

Although an abandoned LV evokes an image of the evil Dark Lord trying to oversee a meeting of stuffed animals or something trying to make himself feel better.

Another thing I wonder about is his heritage as the descendant of Slytherin. Does this override any Muggle blood in LV's mind or that of his followers?

As far as any of his followers suddenly becoming Muggle-lovers, I don't think that is likely to happen. If any were to desert him and his ideology, they would probably be promptly killed.

All of this is purely speculation on my part, but I hope JKR will answer some of our questions.

Solitaire - Oct 4, 2004 10:09 pm (#285 of 800)

No, it makes a lot of sense. I believe you are correct about him being the heir to Slytherin. I think that might override his Muggle heritage. I suppose the behavior of the Muggle half of his family is only fuel for his beliefs of how evil Muggles are.

Weeny Owl - Oct 5, 2004 9:09 am (#286 of 800)

The Sorting Hat says Slytherins will use any means to achieve their ends.

If Voldemort managed to take over the Wizarding World, I doubt if they'd care that much about him having a Muggle father. They want power, they want purity, and if they have to ignore a bit of impurity in one person, they can manage to justify it to themselves. As has been said, having Salazar Slytherin's blood might be enough to let them ignore that one little distasteful fact for the bigger picture.

TomProffitt - Oct 5, 2004 2:07 pm (#287 of 800)

Fascists want the world to conform to their own image. It doesn't matter if we're talking about Nazis, the KKK, al-Qaida, or Death Eaters.

The basic characteristic of the Fascist is that their view of the way the world ought to be is undisputedly right. Petty concerns such as logic, truth, morality, or consistency are immaterial.

If Lord Voldemort can deliver a world ruled by pure blood wizards for pure blood wizards the Death Eaters would be perfectly happy if he himself was a Muggle.

True loyalty to Lord Voldemort will remain only as long as the Death Eaters believe he can deliver. A Death Eater, whether its Snape, Karkaroff, or Malfoy, will abandon Lord Voldemort as soon as they believe he has failed and that they can escape without retribution. Few of them seem to believe they can escape retribution, and few indeed seem to believe he can still deliver the final solution.

haymoni - Oct 8, 2004 10:39 am (#288 of 800)

What is the quote about pure-bloods and Death Eaters where Jo said that Death Eaters are always pure-bloods EXCEPT in rare circumstances?

Who would be the exception?

Does Wormtail count as a Death Eater if he doesn't have The Mark?

Eponine - Oct 8, 2004 10:45 am (#289 of 800)
Edited Oct 8, 2004 11:45 am

From the Edinburgh Book Festival:

Apart from Harry, Snape is my favourite character because he is so complex and I just love him. Can he see the Thestrals, and if so, why? Also, is he a pure blood wizard?

Snape’s ancestry is hinted at. He was a Death Eater, so clearly he is no Muggle-born, because Muggle-borns are not allowed to be Death Eaters, except in rare circumstances. Emphasis mine

It doesn't say anything about half-bloods. Is there another quote about I and pure bloods? That's the only one that I know of. Maybe they're not quite as prejudiced against half-bloods as they are Muggle-borns.

haymoni - Oct 8, 2004 11:08 am (#290 of 800)

Nope - that's the one.

So who is the Muggle-born Death Eater???

schoff - Oct 8, 2004 12:11 pm (#291 of 800)

Check out these posts, haymoni.

Phoenix song - Oct 8, 2004 3:52 pm (#292 of 800)

Wormtail does have the dark mark. Voldemort used it to "call" the rest of his dysfunctional family home to the graveyard.

Barbie

haymoni - Oct 8, 2004 9:16 pm (#293 of 800)

I wonder if he had it when he ratted on the Potters or if this is a new tattoo?

I just wonder what would make a Muggle-born turn on Muggles?

Could it be a Muggle-born that was taunted as a child for being magical or strange? Macnair seems to like killing animals - isn't that one of the signs of being a serial killer that Dr. Phil was talking about before? Macnair could have been taunted or abused as a child for his magical ability, causing him to hate those that are not magical.

TomoÈ - Oct 8, 2004 9:26 pm (#294 of 800)
Edited Oct 8, 2004 10:26 pm

Likely, the Muggle-born had something Voldemort needed and no one else could give him. Voldemort then proposed him/her to join the DE and that Muggle-born sign in, out of pure cowardice, hoping to be spared.

haymoni - Oct 8, 2004 9:32 pm (#295 of 800)

How awful for big, powerful Voldy to need a Muggle-born that much!

This will be a question that will make me crazy for a while!

TomoÈ - Oct 8, 2004 9:37 pm (#296 of 800)
Edited Oct 8, 2004 10:39 pm

He had no choice, Peter was the only one who was willing to give him the Potters. ^_~

Lupin and Sirius whole have rather die and anyway no one would suspect Peter, he's a Muggle-born, it's the perfect cover.

My bet is on Wormtail all the way!

Solitaire - Oct 9, 2004 9:25 am (#297 of 800)
Edited Oct 9, 2004 10:27 am

Haymoni, unless Voldemort gave it to him right there on the spot--since he had been unable to use a wand until he was reborn and had a body--Peter must have had the Dark Mark since before Voldemort's fall.

Solitaire

haymoni - Oct 9, 2004 11:44 am (#298 of 800)

Take 10 points, Solitaire!

Very good...unless...Voldy had Peter tattoo himself to show his loyalty.

Another question for Jo!

hopping hessian - Oct 9, 2004 11:50 am (#299 of 800)

Is Peter a Muggle-born? I must have missed that.

haymoni - Oct 9, 2004 12:01 pm (#300 of 800)

I don't think we know enough about Peter to know.

His mother is mentioned getting that wonderful keepsake of his, but nothing about whether she was a witch or not.

We are just trying to guess to whom JKR was referring.

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Potteraholic Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:45 pm

Nathan Zimmermann - Oct 9, 2004 12:10 pm (#301 of 800)
Edited Oct 9, 2004 1:15 pm

There is a another possibility, that Voldemort burned the dark mark into Peter as method of insuring his loyalty and making it more probable that neither James nor Sirius would accept him again in the event that his betrayal was prematurely revealed.

By that I mean to say that for Peter there was no going back once he had been branded as a Death Eater by Voldemort. Given the personalities of both James and Sirius, neither, would be able to willingly or readily forgive Peter for his betrayal if it had been discovered while James was still alive. At this time it is more likely that Remus and Lily would have given Peter a chance to redeem himself.

However, once James and Lily were murdered the possibility that he could ever be redeemed in the eyes of Remus and Sirius ceased to exist.

Solitaire - Oct 9, 2004 5:05 pm (#302 of 800)

Nathan, Peter's mark was above his elbow, so it probably would not have been seen by anyone who did not see him in short sleeves or with his upper arms exposed for some reason.

"Voldemort bent down and pulled out Wormtail's left arm; he forced the sleeve of Wormtail's robes up past his elbow, and Harry saw something upon the skin there, something like a vivid red tattoo--a skull with a snake protruding from its mouth--the image that had appeared in the sky at the Quidditch World Cup: the Dark Mark. Voldemort examined it carefully, ignoring Wormtail's uncontrollable weeping.

It is back,"" he said softly, ""they will all have noticed it ... and now, we shall see ... now we shall know ..."" (GoF, p 645, US ed.)"

When Snape shows his Dark Mark to Fudge (p 710), he tells him "Every Death Eater had the sign burned into him by the Dark Lord. It was a means of distinguishing one another, and his means of summoning us to him. ... This Mark has been growing clearer all year. Karkaroff's too."

I agree that neither James nor Sirius would have understood at all. Do you think even Remus or Lily would have given Peter a chance even after they saw the Mark? I believe Lily would have known what it meant ... that Peter had forked over something of HUGE importance to Voldemort. That would have meant betrayal of someone deeply important to the Order. I'm not sure even she could have forgiven that. Just my 2 knuts, of course.

Solitaire

TwinklingBlueEyes - Oct 9, 2004 5:34 pm (#303 of 800)

he forced the sleeve of Wormtail's robes up past his elbow,

In this instance, I think past the elbow meant to expose the forearm...if I push my sleeve "just" past the elbow, it still will not show my upper arm, but will expose all of the forearm.

Solitaire - Oct 9, 2004 6:04 pm (#304 of 800)

That could well be, Twinkles ... or he might have wanted it a bit higher, so that it couldn't accidentally be seen by anyone in the Order, since he was spying.

haymoni - Oct 9, 2004 7:23 pm (#305 of 800)
Either way, we don't really hear about wizards running around in T-shirts, so there may not have been a lot of opportunity to go checking people for tattoos.

I always picture the robes of the adults as they are portrayed in the movies. We don't really see a lot of skin in the Wizarding World.

Nathan Zimmermann - Oct 9, 2004 9:00 pm (#306 of 800)
Edited Oct 9, 2004 10:01 pm

Solitaire, I would assert that Lily and Remus considering their temperaments may consider giving Peter a second chance depending on the nature of the betrayal in effort follow the example set by Dumbledore.

Weeny Owl - Oct 9, 2004 10:22 pm (#307 of 800)

Karkaroff showed Snape something on his left forearm in GoF. In OotP, Snape grabbed his left forearm. That doesn't mean it applies to all Death Eaters, but it sounds as if that's standard.

Solitaire - Oct 9, 2004 10:53 pm (#308 of 800)
Edited Oct 9, 2004 11:56 pm

haymoni: We don't really see a lot of skin in the Wizarding World.

We don't, do we? At the Yule Ball in GoF, the girls wear dress robes. At a Yule Ball here in California--even in high schools--there would be a lot of skin flashed. We even begin "dress checks" for 8th grade graduation starting in about March ... just to make sure no girl pulls off her grad robe to reveal too skimpy a party dress. You can't believe what they try to sneak through. I rather like the fact that the WW seems a bit old-fashioned in that respect.

Then again, who would take a Death Eater seriously in a long, backless, sequined gown with a plunging neckline, a high slit up the side, and wearing stiletto heels? I personally can't picture Bella in that get-up, can you? Besides, where would she stow her wand when it wasn't in use?

haymoni - Oct 10, 2004 10:08 am (#309 of 800)

Yes, I think Rosmerta is about as risqué as we are ever going to see.

Solitaire - Oct 10, 2004 12:02 pm (#310 of 800)

And I believe it was confined to some sparkly high heels, wasn't it?

Grimber - Oct 10, 2004 1:04 pm (#311 of 800)

Wormtail had to have had the Mark before the graveyard scene.

We know Voldemort could cast spells after their leaving Albania. Wormtail followed Voldemort’s instructions to make him a new host form so he could travel and Voldemort was the one that killed Frank Bryce at the beginning of GoF.

We also know that the Mark can fade (possibly as far as being not visible?) Snape said this at the end of GoF that his wasn't as visible as it had been. Would be somewhat safe to assume then that for those Voldemort used as spies he would want them not to be identified so easily as just pull up a sleeve ad there you go. So knowing the Mark can fade, if we assume it could fade to not being visible to hide his spies identity wouldn't be too much of a step.

Wormtail would make an excellent spy for Vold because he was already considered a close friend by Potter, Black, Lupin and we know, either was Sirius or Lupin that stated Wormtail always hung around those that seemed to be the big guys on the block, Voldemort would definitely be the big guy then.

We also have to consider Voldemort’s wand. We know Wormtail was the one that became the Potters secret keeper so reported that to Voldemort. Voldemort took matters into his own hands to kill Harry himself. Disembodied after attacking Harry he couldn't have carried away his wand. Yet soon as Wormtail had made him a body to travel in, he had his wand. Would lead to that Wormtail had his wand all along after the night at the Potters, so Wormtail had to have lead Voldemort himself to the Potters, witnessed their deaths and Voldemort’s fall. Grabbed Voldemort’s wand and ran. Why run? he was the one that lead Voldemort to the Potters, so the DEs would blame him for his defeat.

Wormtail hid the wand, Black caught up to him did his faked death... had to be sometime shortly after his escape from Hogwarts he heard the same rumors DD had that Voldemort was in Albania. Retrieved Voldemort’s wand from its hiding spot, and went looking for Voldemort. As we know, Wormtail seemed to be the only one that went to look for his master, so he HAD to have had the wand.

Solitaire - Oct 10, 2004 1:20 pm (#312 of 800)

Grimber, do you think Peter was at Godric's Hollow the night the Potters died? I posted something similar here. What do you think?

Grimber - Oct 10, 2004 3:03 pm (#313 of 800)
Edited Oct 10, 2004 4:10 pm

Actually, yes I think besides Voldemort, he was the ONLY other person there until Hagrid, Sirius and the Muggle police and fire fighters showed up.

It looks to me as soon as Peter could get away from the Order after being made the secret keeper he ran straight to Voldemort. Not wanting to trust his servants to handle things, Voldemort had Peter lead him to the Potters immediately so not to give the Order the chance to figure out their mistake.

If other DEs had been around they would have taken Harry ( or killed him) and wouldn't have been frightened off by the Muggle police arrival. Being only Peter ( and we know he's somewhat of a coward) would have ignored Harry, grabbed Voldemort’s wand and ran at the sounds of the Muggles coming. ( probably being the coward he is, seeing Vold destroyed by Harry, he wasn't about to risk his own skin attacking Harry himself)

Soon after he ran, Hagrid and Siros showed up Hagrid rescued Harry from the burning house and Sirius gave Hagrid his bike to get Harry out of there quick as possible. ( no one suspected Black yet of anything). This also leads me to believe both Sirius and Hagrid were living somewhere close by in the same town else they couldn't have responded so quickly. Maybe as to why Sirius finally realised their mistake trusting Peter in that he came up missing so soon after the Potters being killed.

Solitaire - Oct 10, 2004 9:02 pm (#314 of 800)
Edited Oct 10, 2004 10:05 pm

Interesting point about Peter going missing so quickly after the Potters being killed. That would look suspicious to Sirius.

One of the best reasons for Peter to have been in Godric's Hollow, I think, is the fact that Voldemort had his original wand in GoF. Since he had been unable to hold it since the failed AK curse, someone would have had to pick it up out of the ruins of the Potters' house and take it. How else would Voldemort have gotten that wand all those years later, if Peter hadn't given it to him? And how would Peter have gotten it if he had not been on the spot where it was dropped? I wonder if Peter snatched the wand and then, afraid to try killing Harry himself, just left him there, figuring the explosion would probably trigger a fire and kill him.

I agree that if other DEs had been present, they would have killed Harry or taken him with them. Peter just makes sense as the person who was there. I'm with you.

Solitaire

Grimber - Oct 10, 2004 10:23 pm (#315 of 800)
Edited Oct 10, 2004 11:24 pm

thinking a bit more on Peter that night. we know he sort of tried convince Voldemort he didn't need to kill Harry in the graveyard in GoF.

If we look at Harry’s memories of the where Vold killed James and Lily it seems as if Voldemort had no interest in killing Lily at all " she didn't have to die at all..." Voldemort just wanted Harry.

I'm thinking Peter may have tried to do the same convincing to Voldemort then to 'just go after the boy' that night. The Potters where of no importance as long as the boy is killed. ( bit of a guilt trip that would fit Peter)

Solitaire - Oct 10, 2004 10:35 pm (#316 of 800)

If we are going to discuss Peter extensively, we should perhaps take this over to his thread. Smile

MzWhizz123 - Oct 17, 2004 10:46 am (#317 of 800)

OK, there are a couple of things that have had me baffled for some time. I have done several searches but have not found any compelling theories:

1.) We know Regulus was killed shortly before Voldemort made the fateful attack on the Potters, right? Sirius told us himself that Regulus had a change of heart and was considering "resigning". I have a theory about what might have caused Regulus change of perspective.

What if LV decided to send Regulus after Sirius (reason? perhaps to whittle down the pool of the Potters' friends, giving Wormtail a better chance of receiving information; maybe it was just a test of obedience; or it could be that Voldie saw Sirius as some sort of impediment to reaching the child mentioned in the prophesy), and Regulus balked at zapping his own brother. (Of course Sirius had been disowned by his mother by this time, but recall his great-grandfather's reaction when he heard that Sirius was dead. I think there were stronger family ties than we realize.)

Then, consider Sirius’ statement that Regulus was probably not killed by LV himself, but on his orders. Perhaps Bella used this as an opportunity to illustrate that killing one's own family was not so difficult when the Dark Lord commanded it. This, then would have strengthened Bella's ties to LV, giving him reason to trust her more than many other DEs. It also explains her statement during the battle at the MOM that she had been so busy dueling with the "Animagus Black" that she was not aware that the prophesy was smashed. She was afraid that he would blame her and wanted to remind him of her devotion. "Remember, I'm the one who will kill her own family for you?"

I think Bella killed Regulus for protecting Sirius somehow.

2.) The second thing is--why was the Potter's house burning? The AK curse itself would not cause a fire, would it? Was it LV's transformation into Vapormort that caused an explosion? And Lily's charm must have TRULY been powerful if Harry wasn't injured as well, don't you think?

On another one, and probably another thread as well, I agree with those who theorize that both Wormtail and Snape were present on that night at Godric's Hollow. Snape was the spy DE. After the fight, Wormtail got Voldie's wand and rat-I-sized, then took off while Snape went to Dumbledore with news of the situation.

Anyhow, if these items have already been discussed to oblivion, I apologize. I realize that threads get deleted regularly!

Nathan Zimmermann - Oct 17, 2004 12:39 pm (#318 of 800)

Mr. Whizz123 that is an interesting set of ideas. I think that Voldemort would think nothing of having Regulus kill Sirius. I also, think that Voldemort could have ordered Bella to kill Andromeda as he has not concept of family loyalty.

MzWhizz123 - Oct 17, 2004 1:08 pm (#319 of 800)

Thanks, Nathan. I also think it proves what a Bad Motor Scooter Bella really is. I'm afraid there will be no redemption available for her. Sad

Solitaire - Oct 17, 2004 3:37 pm (#320 of 800)
Edited Oct 17, 2004 4:38 pm

I agree that Andromeda probably would have been a big target, being a pure-blood married to a Muggle-born and all. I'm surprised she and her hubby escaped. Bella might have been ordered to kill Andromeda, but if she attempted it, she failed.

When the Advance Guard are at Privet Drive, Tonks talks about both of her parents in the present tense, giving the distinct impression that they are still very much alive. The fact that Regulus is dead makes me wonder if he was not ordered to dispose of certain family members and refused, leaving Bella (and possibly Narcissa) to do the job.

I agree with MzWhizz that Bella is a nasty piece of work. I do not see redemption in her future at all. She is not only evil, I think she is a bit unhinged from her time in Azkaban. She seems almost maniacal, to me.

Solitaire

Nathan Zimmermann - Oct 17, 2004 3:58 pm (#321 of 800)

I agree Bellatrix is at the very least sociopathic if not psychopathic. Andromeda's ability to survive with sisters like Bella and Narcissa and relations such as the Lestranges and Malfoys. It tends to show the strength of her character and the force of her will.

Solitaire - Oct 17, 2004 4:03 pm (#322 of 800)

Nathan, I wonder if she will be able to survive their treachery in this war. I have a bad feeling about her and Ted. Sad

Nathan Zimmermann - Oct 17, 2004 5:50 pm (#323 of 800)
Edited Oct 17, 2004 6:56 pm

Solitaire, I think if necessary she and Ted can seek refuge at Hogwarts of Number 12 GP. But, I think that she may be an exceptionally strong witch capable of defending herself just as Bella is.

Bella is an exceptionally powerful witch capable of deflecting a spell from Albus Dumbledore. I tend to think that such power may be inherent in all the Black sisters. Also, I am reminded that Nymphadora is a Metamorphmagus and she made a commentary about Metamorphmagi being born not made. This would seem to indicate that Andromeda may have the latent ability to become either an Animagus or Metamorphmagus. This idea that the Blacks possess a latent ability is further reinforced by the ability Sirius possessed to transform into Animagus form without a wand while, in Azkaban.

Solitaire - Oct 17, 2004 8:26 pm (#324 of 800)
Edited Oct 17, 2004 9:27 pm

Well, if Andromeda and Ted seek refuge at Hogwarts, perhaps they WILL be the next DADA teachers, as someone else suggested on the thread about the new DADA teacher.

It seemed a far-fetched idea to me when I first read it; but it would certainly provide a cover for their being at Hogwarts. Besides, if we learn that Harry is indeed a Metamorphmagus--as his hair-regrowing episode has kind of led me to suspect--it will be important for someone who understands and has had experience with that ability to be available to coach him ... right? Even if Andromeda herself is not a Metamorphmagus, she would have had experience with the ability through her daughter, Tonks. I know ... too much wild speculation!

Solitaire

Nathan Zimmermann - Oct 17, 2004 8:30 pm (#325 of 800)
Edited Oct 17, 2004 9:31 pm

Solitaire, I disagree it is not to much speculation. I think the scenario has merit.

Solitaire - Oct 17, 2004 8:39 pm (#326 of 800)

Nathan, have you ever wondered if JKR reads the stuff we write and, if so, what she thinks when she reads it? Do you suppose she marvels at our deep and amazing insight or howls with laughter and/or indignation at our bizarre ideas and speculation?

Nathan Zimmermann - Oct 17, 2004 8:49 pm (#327 of 800)

I wonder myself perhaps the insightfulness of posters delights her. After all look at the commentary relating to the James and Lupin switching theorem.

If each of the Black sisters possesses the abilities mentioned both the Order and the Ministry have their work cut out for them.

Solattice - Oct 17, 2004 10:49 pm (#328 of 800)
Edited Oct 17, 2004 11:51 pm

MzWhizz, you asked: "why was the Potter's house burning? The AK curse itself would not cause a fire, would it? Was it LV's transformation into Vapormort that caused an explosion? And Lily's charm must have TRULY been powerful if Harry wasn't injured as well, don't you think?"

I apologize if this has been proposed before, but when wondering about how Voldemort got his wand back after that night, Solitaire wrote this: "How else would Voldemort have gotten that wand all those years later, if Peter hadn't given it to him? And how would Peter have gotten it if he had not been on the spot where it was dropped? I wonder if Peter snatched the wand and then, afraid to try killing Harry himself, just left him there, figuring the explosion would probably trigger a fire and kill him."

To me, this seems the most plausible explanation for Voldemort getting his wand back, but how could Peter have accomplished this if the house was blowing up around him? He might have been able to get out alive if he turned into a rat, but trying to carry a wooden wand? To answer the first question, then, I wonder if Peter blew the house up himself, like he did the sewers when Sirius cornered him. Perhaps he thought the house would fall down on Harry's head and kill him, finishing Voldemort's work.

MzWhizz123 - Oct 18, 2004 6:22 pm (#329 of 800)

AAhhh... interesting theory, Solattice. It occurred to me as I read your post, that maybe Peter started the fire to try to kill Harry. I wonder... Maybe there was something else in the house that he wanted to conceal? Perhaps his own part in the whole debacle since he knew that DEs were bound to come to look around? Hmmm...

Doesn't Hagrid say that he picked Harry out of the rubble of the house? Yet we don't really know what his state of health was at that time. Someone suggested that Hagrid took his to DD for be "fixed up" before dropping him at #4. I just think that a scar on the forehead is extraordinarily minor damage for what the little tyke went through that night, wouldn't you say?

TomoÈ - Oct 19, 2004 9:21 am (#330 of 800)
Edited Oct 19, 2004 10:22 am

Nathan -> Also, I am reminded that Nymphadora is a Metamorphmagus and she made a commentary about Metamorphmagi being born not made. This would seem to indicate that Andromeda may have the latent ability to become either an Animagus or Metamorphmagus. This idea that the Blacks possess a latent ability is further reinforced by the ability Sirius possessed to transform into Animagus form without a wand while, in Azkaban.

There is no canon that support people can be born Animagus. We never saw any Animagi using a wand to transform, it therefore appear that Animagi's body are like flying broom, bewitched to acquire a new ability that can be summoned at will, without a wand. Plus, it sounds in PoA that anyone can become Animagus if one cast the spells correctly. So I don't think the Black family have any advantage in that matter.

We know Nymphadora is born Metamorphmagus, but that doesn't mean the Black family have anything to do with this, maybe that characteristic come from Ted's side of the family. Strangely, all the people we know to have special characteristic are half-blood, maybe most of those abilities need some new blood to show out.

Solattice -> [Peter] might have been able to get out alive if he turned into a rat, but trying to carry a wooden wand?

Animagus seems to transform with the stuff they are carrying and wearing. When they transform back to human, McGonagall, Sirius and Peter always wear cloths, you can see on McGonagall's cat and Rita's beetle marks looking like their glasses. If Peter put Voldemort's wand in his pocket, the wand would have became part of the rat.

haymoni - Oct 19, 2004 5:30 pm (#331 of 800)

Didn't Jo say that Peter hid Voldy's wand?

Prefect Marcus - Oct 19, 2004 6:51 pm (#332 of 800)

Didn't Jo say that Peter hid Voldy's wand?

I don't think so. That is something that serious fans continually want to know, but the chatters and the questioners at the events usually ask, "How did you decide to become a writer?" or, "Do you believe in magic?"

I believe there is at least one second-hand account that mentions the question, and JK ducked it if I recall.

MzWhizz123 - Oct 19, 2004 7:17 pm (#333 of 800)

Actually, I believe that Jo told us at one time that the wizard's possessions, (wand included), transform with them and re-form when the wizard returns to his/her natural form. I'll see if I can find that conversation somewhere.

Solitaire - Oct 19, 2004 8:54 pm (#334 of 800)

Solattice, you could be right about the fire/explosion. I suppose Peter could have caused it. Given the damage we saw in the Ministry after the battle, however, deflected and rebounded curses seem quite capable of causing fires, which could in turn could have triggered an explosion.

As for Peter, I think the cowardly rat probably snatched James's and Lily's wands, too, before he split from the scene (Where else did those escaped DEs get wands?). And if he wanted to destroy some evidence at the Potters' house, might it possibly have been information about the change from Sirius to Peter as Secret Keeper? We all know that McGonagall still believed Sirius to have been the Secret Keeper in PoA. She says so that day in the Three Broomsticks. If she believed it, others probably did, as well.

Solitaire

haymoni - Oct 19, 2004 9:37 pm (#335 of 800)

Ah - the Search function is a wonderful thing. Thank you, Hollywand for pointing the way to The Leaky Cauldron:

More Rowling tidbits from HP4U JKR Edinburgh Festival Report

HP4U has posted a report from the Edinburgh Festival where JKR answered a few new questions from two lucky young fans.

"...to where JK Rowling was, given our wristbands, then we went to meet her. We said hello and she told us 'she was really glad we could make it'. I told her I was really glad to be there and her books were the best, I said I wish I could have asked her a question and so she told me to 'go on then, ask away!'. I asked JK Rowling would Professor Lockhart get out of St Mungo’s, get his memory back and be in any of the next books?, she said no to all of these questions. I also asked when Harries [sic] parents were killed by Voldemort, Wormtail turned into a rat and pretended to be dead. How then did he give Voldemort his wand and robe back once he found him and helped give him back his body ?, she told me (after tapping her nose!) 'he hid them'.

I wish I could have asked her lots of questions but these were the only ones I could think of at the time."

Phew! I thought I had read this somewhere but couldn't find it!

Prefect Marcus - Oct 20, 2004 6:48 am (#336 of 800)

Haymoni,

Thanks for locating that quote. Unfortunately, it must be treated with a little suspicion since it is only second hand information. "She says that she says..."

Marcus

haymoni - Oct 20, 2004 6:51 am (#337 of 800)

Yes, Marcus - that is the same logic I am using for the Hagrid-is-not-the-HBP comments.

However, I KNEW that I had read it somewhere - it was just a relief to find it.

Now if I can only find that quote about Trevor being more than a toad...

Madame Pomfrey - Nov 6, 2004 7:27 am (#338 of 800)

Has any one wondered where Gregory Goyle was during the Inquisitorial Squads capture of Harry and friends? Also where was his father during the battle in the DOM?

Steve Newton - Nov 6, 2004 8:19 am (#339 of 800)

I certainly have. Ever since Gregory was bitten in SS I have thought that the bad guys knew that he was not a firm believer. I think that they are good candidates for coming over to the good side. Or course I wouldn't rule out the elder Goyle being dead. Its not nice to fool Lord Voldemort.

Solitaire - Nov 6, 2004 10:25 am (#340 of 800)

Could Goyle, Sr., have been on the mission to the Giants--with Macnair--and perhaps have been killed or injured severely?

Madame Pomfrey - Nov 6, 2004 11:40 am (#341 of 800)

I had forgotten that Gregory got bit by Wormtail... interesting. Maybe you're right Steve, Goyle may switch sides especially if VM has killed his father. Solitaire, I had wondered who was with Macnair on the giant mission. We know he wasn't the only one but isn't he the only one mentioned by name? That chapter( Hagrid's Tale) was a little bit tedious and I didn't pay it enough attention. Out of all 5 books this is the only chapter I had trouble getting into and there is probably a lot of hidden info in it.

Solitaire - Nov 6, 2004 3:02 pm (#342 of 800)

Madame P, Hagrid recognized Macnair because he was the one who'd come to kill Buckbeak. In OotP (Chapter 20, page 431, US ed.)L

... we soon found out he didn't object ter all wizards--just us. "Death Eaters?" said Harry quickly. "Yep," said Hagrid darkly. "Couple of 'em were visitin' him ev'ry day, bringin' gifts ter the Gurg, an' he wasn' dangling them upside down." "How d'you know they were Death Eaters?" said Ron. "Because I recognized one of 'em," Hagrid growled. "Macnair, remember him? Bloke they sent ter kill Buckbeak? Maniac, he is. Likes killin' as much as Golgomath, no wonder they were gettin' on so well."

Later--when he was talking about them sneaking around the mountains at night, looking for him and Madame Maxime--Hagrid refers to the Death Eaters as "Macnair an' the other one," which sounds like he doesn't know who it was.

Remember when everyone assumed Crookshanks had eaten Scabbers, Ron recalls when he bit Goyle and called it "his finest hour." Of course, this was before he knew who Scabbers really was. I suppose it's possible that Goyle and Wormtail could have had "issues" within the DE circle. I doubt any of them really trust each other.

If Voldemort killed (or caused the death of) Goyle, Sr., perhaps Goyle, Jr., might be considering defecting. But how would he do it, if he didn't switch houses? Draco would make his life miserable. Yet, I can't see anyone switching houses ... or did JKR say this would happen? I'm not really current on all of the hints and clues she has released.

Solitaire

El Cronista de Salem - Nov 21, 2004 7:36 am (#343 of 800)

Was Grindelwald a Death Eater?

In RAH, Jo said that Death Eater were called before Walpurgis Knights, but.. how many time before?

Are the Death Eater a team created by Voldemort, or Voldemort was a Death Eater before being the leader? Who was, then, the leader? Grindelwald?

She should have several pages about their history (I hope she publish them at EXTRA STUFF in her site!). Maybe the Death Eaters have centuries of history, or maybe only 20 years.

It is interesting that the Famous Wizards Cards, as the student books, don't mention these people. if they are from centuries ago, Harry should have studied them in History of Magic.

What do you think?

(in the drawing, this is as I imagine the Death Eater mask).

TomProffitt - Nov 21, 2004 9:06 am (#344 of 800)

I always pictured them (exactly, now that I think about it) as hooded Klansmen of the KKK.

El Cronista de Salem - Nov 21, 2004 9:45 am (#345 of 800)

do the books mention a hood?

I always draw them with a mask, a little bit as a snake.

MickeyCee3948 - Nov 21, 2004 7:49 pm (#346 of 800)

In GoF they all wore hoods in the cemetery.

Weeny Owl - Nov 22, 2004 3:09 am (#347 of 800)

From "Beyond the Veil," Chapter 35, OotP:

Black shapes were emerging out of thin air all around them, blocking their way left and right; eyes glinted through slits in hoods, a dozen lit wand tips were pointing directly at their hearts; Ginny gave a gasp of horror.

Oh, he knows how to play, little bitty baby Potter, she said, her mad eyes staring through the slits in her hood. "Very well, then-"

The woman stepped forward, away from her fellows, and pulled off her hood. Azkaban had hollowed Bellatrix Lestrange's face, making it gaunt and skull-like, but it was alive with a feverish, fanatical glow.

El Cronista de Salem - Nov 22, 2004 7:39 am (#348 of 800)

You are right, then ;-)

thanks a lot!

Nathan Zimmermann - Nov 24, 2004 4:02 pm (#349 of 800)

The analogy between the KKK and the Death Eaters is indeed apt. There is analogy that can be drawn between Hugo Black and Severus Snape. In that he renounced his ties with the organization and underwent a conversion and became a champion of the rights of the oppressed. I see a similar conversion occurring within the character of Severus Snape.

Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 17, 2004 10:16 pm (#350 of 800)

Question: Does the statement that J.K. Rowling made about the Lestranges not knowing of the prophecy concerning Neville and Harry indicate the possible existence of a hierarchy within the Death Eaters?

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Julia. - Dec 18, 2004 9:23 pm (#351 of 800)

Perhaps I'm just crazy, but I've always thought there was a hierarchy within the DEs. The exact reference escapes me, but I definitely remember reading that Lucius was right in Voldie's inner circle. That and if Voldie had as huge of an army as we're told he did in the first one, I can't imagine that there wouldn't have been some sort of hierarchy in the DEs. Also, in the DoM battle, Lucius took over the leadership role before Voldie got there. That made me think that he was the highest-ranking DE there.

TomProffitt - Dec 19, 2004 5:30 am (#352 of 800)

Julia, I don't think we have any direct evidence of the DE hierarchy. I believe the quote you are referring to was an observation by one of the characters that they made with a certain amount of prejudice. It's a reasonable assumption, but we don't have much info to go on.

Because we follow the story almost exclusively from Harry's point of view we may never know for certain how the DE are organized.

Julia. - Dec 19, 2004 10:34 am (#353 of 800)

You're right Tom, we don’t' have any canon to prove what I just said, save that one reference, which can't even be taken as fact. It just seems to make sense to me that there would be some sort of rank system in an organization as big as the first war DEs.

Solitaire - Dec 19, 2004 10:56 am (#354 of 800)

If, as some have suggested, Voldemort is modeled on Hitler, then there might be some sort of hierarchy. Hitler certainly had his inner circle of "henchmen": Heydrich, Himmler, Goering, and others. I can certainly see Lucius in one of these roles. In fact, when I think of Lucius, Reinhard Heydrich always immediately pops into my mind. I don't know why Heyrich, specifically, but that's always who it is ...

Solitaire

schoff - Dec 19, 2004 6:50 pm (#355 of 800)

I can't imagine there not being a hierarchy. Voldemort would be pretty stupid indeed if he considered Goyle, Crabbe, or even Avery to be equal to Malfoy or Bellatrix.

Gina R Snape - Dec 30, 2004 12:54 pm (#356 of 800)

I absolutely agree there must be a hierarchy. And I think this has been discussed on another thread, but for the life of me I can't think where at this moment.

But that's not why I'm posting. I had a thought today.

What if another DE came to DD for help because s/he wanted to switch sides? Is there a possibility of another one seeking redemption? How would DD react? Is there a place for this in the story so far?

Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 30, 2004 2:15 pm (#357 of 800)

Gina, I think it could be possible given the precedent set by both Snape and Regulus Black. Of the known Death Eaters, I think the three likeliest candidates are Karkaroff, Nott, or Avery.

Solitaire - Dec 31, 2004 12:39 am (#358 of 800)

What about Goyle? Wasn't he missing from the Battle in the DoM? If so, why?

Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 31, 2004 9:36 am (#359 of 800)

Solitaire, I see three possibilities where Goyle Sr. is concerned.

1. He could be included in the list of possible defectors.

2. He could have been part of another assignment for Voldemort.

3. Goyle could have not been included in the team that raided the DoM because, he like his son is so slow witted that his exclusion would have been a detriment to the team.

Solitaire - Dec 31, 2004 9:55 am (#360 of 800)

I kind of feel 1 & 3 are the likeliest possibilities--3 being more probable (I am assuming you mean his inclusion would have been a detriment?). Since he is usually seen with Crabbe and Malfoy, however, it surprises me a little. Have we seen Goyle Sr. at all in Book 5? I can't remember. If not, is it possible that he was on the trip to the giants, with Macnair, and was possibly injured or killed?

Solitaire

Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 31, 2004 10:43 am (#361 of 800)

Solitaire, yes I meant to say that Goyle's lack of intelligence could have been detrimental to the team, as such he was not included in this mission.

Gina R Snape - Dec 31, 2004 11:19 am (#362 of 800)

I see Avery as the most likely defector. Wasn't he the one who got Crucio’d at the Dark Lord's resurrection party at the end of GoF? And wasn't he the one Harry witnessed being 'disciplined' by the Dark Lord in a vision in OoTP?

I just have a feeling about him...

Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 31, 2004 11:45 am (#363 of 800)

Gina, that is an excellent point I have always wondered whether Avery was intentionally feeding Voldemort misinformation.

Solitaire - Dec 31, 2004 12:08 pm (#364 of 800)

I agree, Nathan and Gina, that Avery is another likely candidate for defection. He may have been "disciplined" once too often. Perhaps he's weary of Voldemort's brand of "tough love." I'm also wondering how Voldemort plans to "deal with" Bella for her part in the Ministry fiasco. I can imagine it won't be pretty--still, I suppose she is far too sold out to Voldemort to ever consider defecting. Too bad ...

Solitaire

TomoÈ - Dec 31, 2004 2:14 pm (#365 of 800)

I don't remember Mr. Goyle being mentioned at all in OoP beside the Quibbler article, maybe he was on a mission with Wormtail ...

As for Avery, his name is on my possible defectors/traitors list.

Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 31, 2004 4:13 pm (#366 of 800)

Here is my list of possible defectors:

1. Avery 2. Karkaroff 3. Nott 4. Goyle Sr.

In the case of Pettigrew I do not think it would be possible for him to break ranks with Voldemort even if he wanted to. I think Peter sealed his fate the night Lily and James were murdered,

Solitaire - Dec 31, 2004 4:21 pm (#367 of 800)

Nathan: I think Peter sealed his fate the night Lily and James were murdered

... and if not then, he surely sealed it the night he killed Cedric, forcibly took Harry's blood, helped "resurrect" Voldemort, and received his silver hand. My, he was a busy boy that night!

Solitaire

Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 31, 2004 6:25 pm (#368 of 800)

For wizard of limited talent when compared to James Sirius, and Remus he has done much. It makes one wonder what James and Sirius could have become if they had been allowed to live.

Auror Tonks - Jan 4, 2005 12:05 pm (#369 of 800)

I think he'll have a life changing role in HPBP because in HPPA Dumbledore tells Harry that when one wizard saves another's life it creates a certain bond between them and that Voldemort doesn't want a servant in Harry's debt. We already saw that in GoF at the beginning when Wormtail tells Voldemort it can be done without Harry Potter

Solitaire - Jan 30, 2005 8:35 pm (#370 of 800)

I have a question connected with the Death Eaters. What should happen to them, ultimately? A great deal has been said about how Harry and the kids should not be using Unforgiveable Curses, since doing so will essentially turn them into the thing they hate: Death Eaters. But if Azkaban prison can no longer contain them--we have already seen them break out once, and the presumption is that those captured at the Ministry won't be there for long--what should be their fate, if they are still in Azkaban, or if they are captured during the next war?

Should there be a "take no prisoners" policy on all who wage war on Voldemort and the Death Eaters? Should all battles be a fight to the Death? If merely capturing and imprisoning them does not guarantee that the world will be safe from them for long, what then? How should they be handled? Just wondering how people feel about these Witches and Wizards like Lucius, Anton Dolohov, Bella, etc....

Solitaire

Nathan Zimmermann - Feb 12, 2004 11:47 am (#371 of 800)

In terms of Bellatrix and Dolohov their manner is such that they would fight to the death. Their in sojourn Azkaban with the Dementors merely exacerbated those inherent tendencies and beliefs systems that resulted in their crimes and their subsequent incarceration.

The Ministry of Magic could legitimately institute a death people for those persons who use the Unforgivable Curses although given J.K Rowling's work for Amnesty International this is improbable as a solution.

Ydnam96 - Jan 30, 2005 9:19 pm (#372 of 800)

I think that's a great question Solitaire. I think it would be fairly hypocritical of the good guys to kill all the bad guys. I'm thinking since DD is big on justice that he would insist that they get fair treatment. And it seems that the WW doesn't put people to death for murder, as they put all the I in jail instead of killing them or having kissed by Dementors.

But you are right, they would probably be able to break out of jail. Well, at least Azkaban. And I have a feeling the Dementors will not be working for the MoM any time soon.

The only solution I can think of is if they had some sort of building that had an anti-Apparition charm on it (like the one DD used in the MoM at the end of OotP) with a magical border preventing them from leaving. Also, would it be possible to strip a person of their magical abilities? That would probably be the most "humane" way of going about things.

(side note: I did a little research on what the military tribunal at Nuremberg did with the war criminals they found guilty after WWII. For the most part they hung all of those guilty, with the exception of three I think who were imprisoned for substantial periods of time. I think that if they had been tried by the UN though they would not have been able to be put to death because the UN doesn’t sanction corporal punishment (I think). I was curious what the precedent in WWII was for war criminals...)

Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 30, 2005 9:33 pm (#373 of 800)

Yndam, I like the idea of the anti Apparition charm very much. The references you made to Nuremberg were interesting. I agree that Dumbledore would insist that any trials be different from those that occurred on Crouch's watch.

I think that trials if there were any would be patterned after the Nuremberg trials. I doubt that J.K. Rowling would use the Tokyo trials as a pattern because, they were a farce and would not meet accepted standards of justice and fairness.

Addendum: Yndam, at the first trial at Nuremberg after WWII 12 individuals were condemned to death, 2 were sentenced to life imprisonment, 6 were given various lesser terms of imprisonment and 3 were acquitted. 2 others committed suicide prior to trial and 1 was declared mentally unfit for trial.

Ydnam96 - Jan 30, 2005 9:46 pm (#374 of 800)

Nathan, thanks. I just quickly looked up the Nuremberg trials up on Google and didn't see all those stats you had. (mostly the 6 with lesser imprisonments, I must have just found a site that talked about the "big" sentences).

I thought of it because of the ties that HP has with WWII in our world. Be it on purpose or not, there are a lot of similarities. I think it would be interesting to do a more in depth study (or discussion) on the similarities with history and stuff but it gets very political and we are supposed to stay away from stuff like that.

I think the only answer for the HP series is if JK actually has all the I die in the war (thus eliminating a need for the WW to do anything about them) or has some sort of trial like those in Nuremberg.

MickeyCee3948 - Jan 30, 2005 10:19 pm (#375 of 800)

Have them walk through the veil. Dang their hides.

Mikie

Solitaire - Jan 31, 2005 7:01 am (#376 of 800)

Good responses. I kind of figure Jo would probably not want to resort to the Dementor's Kiss or the AK, even for the most heinous of criminals. Still, I kind of tend to agree with Mickey on this one. I believe certain DEs may be beyond redemption.

Nathan, I believe Bella and Dolohov would fight to the death. The question is, whose deaths? If those fighting against the DEs are not using AK and the Death Eaters are using it, it seems rather clear to me who will be dying. It's rather like using a water pistol against someone with a loaded gun. No contest.

As far as the anti-Disapparating jinx, I would suspect that such a safeguard is and has been in place for centuries at Azkaban. The DEs have simply figured out how to break through it. Don't forget that they practice the Dark Arts.

Actually, I've been giving that one some thought. How did they escape? Fudge insisted that the Dementors were under Ministry control at the time. We know that they obeyed Umbridge's order to attack Harry--although that was several months before the escape. Still, Sirius managed to escape by transforming into his Animagus form. Could the DEs have done the same? Could they have transformed? If the Dementors were not yet helping them, how else could they have managed?

The real issue at the moment seems to be making Azkaban prison secure, so that criminals cannot escape. Until this is accomplished, it would seem that the DEs will be escaping, terrorizing the world, being imprisoned, escaping again ... a vicious circle. I foresee a rough war for the good guys.

Solitaire

ex-FAHgeek - Jan 31, 2005 9:06 am (#377 of 800)

---quote--- I think that if they had been tried by the UN though they would not have been able to be put to death because the UN doesn’t sanction corporal punishment (I think). I was curious what the precedent in WWII was for war criminals...) ---end quote---

Of course, since the formation of the UN happened after WWII, their policies would have been irrelevant at the time, due to the whole not-existing-yet thing...

Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 31, 2005 10:02 am (#378 of 800)

Solitaire, I agree with your assessment of both Bella and Dolohov. Their nature is such that in order to overcome them the Aurors or whoever opposes them would be forced to kill them. I believe that Dumbledore realizes this as do Moody and Lupin and Amelia Bones.

TomProffitt - Jan 31, 2005 4:27 pm (#379 of 800)

To throw in my two knuts:

I believe that the US should abolish the death penalty for political reasons. On moral grounds I have absolutely no problem with the concept. There are a lot of other problems associated with the death penalty, but if there is no doubt of both the heinousness of a crime and the guilty party, I have no problem with shooting them. None at all. The "no doubt" part is where it all falls apart and the death penalty becomes less tenable.

I think it was fairly clear that the Death Eaters were able to escape Azkaban because of the complacency of the Fudge Administration vis a vis Dementors and the security of Azkaban. With the Dementors obviously gone and half way competent wizards working at the facility I believe the Death Eaters would be unable to escape without outside help.

Given sufficient quantities of Veritaserum I would line the Death Eaters up and execute all of the murderers (starting with Pettigrew) and sending the rest for appropriate terms in Azkaban.

timrew - Jan 31, 2005 4:49 pm (#380 of 800)

Bella and Dolohov, what to do with them? They're both obviously mad as mad can be.........in other words, they would back Lord Voldemort up if he asked them to dance round a fire naked (except for purple woad) and swear that he was even better than Michael Jackson.........

The veil is too good for them! The Dementor's kiss wouldn't do any good either, because they obviously don't have souls............

I think they should be turned over to Fred and George for experiments in joke magic. Ton-tongue toffee, Canary Candy, Chicken wands, Vomiting Lunch-boxes..........

Too good for them! But it's a start........

Saud - Jan 31, 2005 7:18 pm (#381 of 800)

Apologies for bad timing. Who was Mr. Bode killed by the Death Eaters?

TomProffitt - Feb 1, 2005 12:36 pm (#382 of 800)

Apologies for bad timing. Who was Mr. Bode killed by the Death Eaters? --- Saud

Broderick Bode, an unspeakable working in the Department of Mysteries, was apparently placed under an Imperius curse at some point in OP. It is surmised that while cursed he attempted to take The Prophecy, which resulted in memory loss. He was the recipient of a cutting of Devil's Snare around Christmas, and was subsequently throttled to death. Should the first two conjectures be correct, it follows that the Death Eater or Death Eaters responsible for the Imperius curse would have been responsible for the gift of Devil's Snare.

Jiminy Cricket! It's hard to be succinct when there are all of those suppositions in there!

Mrs Brisbee - Feb 1, 2005 12:47 pm (#383 of 800)

I wonder how permanent transfigurations are. Maybe all the convicted DEs could be turned into ferrets, and made to live in a habitrail with an Unbreakable charm on it.

Nathan Zimmermann - Feb 1, 2005 1:29 pm (#384 of 800)

Mrs Brisbee, that is interesting turning them into ferrets and then feeding them to Buckbeak could be construed as an appropriate punishment for Bella, Dolohov and Macnair.

Solitaire - Feb 1, 2005 1:36 pm (#385 of 800)

I tend to think of that as an appropriate punishment for Draco, Nathan ... considering he was willing for Buckbeak to become the Headless Hippogriff. I wonder ... could Bucky have ridden in the Headless Hunt then?

Weeny Owl - Feb 1, 2005 2:01 pm (#386 of 800)

My problem with that is that it would be cruel and unusual punishment for Buckbeak.

TomProffitt - Feb 1, 2005 2:12 pm (#387 of 800)

I tend to think of that as an appropriate punishment for Draco.... --- Solitaire

At this point in the story Draco has not actually committed any actions worse than school boy brawls. Yes, he has displayed both a foul mouth and a racist attitude, but he has yet to actually do anything worthy of a significant punishment. I don't like Draco, but he is clearly still in a position where he could be redeemed.

The only punishment I think Draco has both earned and deserved are a docking of points from his house. Severus Snape has done more evil things in the series than Draco actually has.

And no, membership in the Inquisitorial Squad doesn't count in my book. They never accomplished anything more than bullying. Any attempted evil was actually attempted by their faculty advisor and not by the students themselves.

Let Draco do something other than dream about doing something before you transfigure him.

Catherine - Feb 1, 2005 2:19 pm (#388 of 800)

Let Draco do something other than dream about doing something before you transfigure him. --Tom Proffitt

Fair enough, and a good approach to take. But my view on Draco is that he just hasn't gotten caught yet.

Nathan Zimmermann - Feb 1, 2005 5:56 pm (#389 of 800)

The question of trials and punishments for the Death Eaters is complex one.

For example, Lucius Malfoy was able to avoid a conviction and term of imprisonment in the aftermath of the first war. Currently Lucius is in Azkaban for his role in the raid on the DoM. But, is he slippery enough to manage an acquittal at a trial.

Also, in the aftermath of the first war Avery claimed he acted under the influence of the Imperius Curse. Could he successfully he reassert this defense in the aftermath of the second war.

Another question as Headmaster of Durmstrang which is outside of the jurisdiction of the Ministry of Magic is Karkaroff immune from prosecution for any acts he may commit

Wand Maker - Feb 1, 2005 6:37 pm (#390 of 800)

I had always thought that there was either a spot in Azkaban where one could Apparate into and out from. Either that or portkeys were needed to come and go.

I think that the Death Eaters escaped with help from the outside and probably a bunch of help from the inside via the Dementors. I'm sure that they stayed at Azkaban under Voldemort's orders until the Ministry recognized the fact that Voldemort was back.

I think that most of the hard core Death Eaters will fight to their death. It is the lesser DEs that will have to be dealt with after the war.

Could the MoM Obliviate their memories and retrain them as upstanding citizens as an alternative to incarceration, death, or Dementor kiss?

MickeyCee3948 - Feb 1, 2005 8:14 pm (#391 of 800)

Nathan-I think the only act Karkaroff has performed since Voldemort's return is hiding in very dark and desolate places. Either that or he is visiting with Sirius, Lily and James in the great beyond.

Mikie

Nathan Zimmermann - Feb 1, 2005 8:25 pm (#392 of 800)

I agree Karkaroff is mostly likely hiding from Voldemort. I was just curious as to whether Karkaroff could be prosecuted for causing the death of any Death Eaters who attempt to capture him.

MickeyCee3948 - Feb 1, 2005 8:29 pm (#393 of 800)

SELF DEFENSE!!! I can see the plea not.

Mikie

Solitaire - Feb 2, 2005 1:41 am (#394 of 800)

Is it possible that--now that the Ministry has had to acknowledge that Harry was correct and Voldemort is indeed back--the Ministry will revisit what Harry said at the end of GoF about who was present at the rebirthing of Voldemort? In other words, why would he lie about who was there if he was telling the truth about everything else? Or is that expecting the impossible of the Ministry?

If the Ministry does indeed take the responsible (albeit unlikely) action of questioning Harry about this event and who he saw at the rebirthing--admittedly a big "if"--how will it be possible for those DEs in attendance to try and slither out of it this time? Also, it's one thing to plead the Imperius Curse when Voldemort is Vapormort. It is quite another to attempt to deny him when he is on the loose and quite capable of vaporizing any disloyal followers ... don't you think?

Solitaire

wwtMask - Feb 2, 2005 6:24 am (#395 of 800)

Didn't Harry name all of the DEs in his Quibbler interview? Of course, all of those DEs were either captured or not present at the MoM events.

Wand Maker - Feb 2, 2005 5:24 pm (#396 of 800)

If Fudge is ousted early in book six, we might see the Ministry act. He won't do it - he would think that he was driving the nails in his political coffin by acknowledging that Harry was correct all along. I would guess that now that it is acknowledged that Voldemort is back, all Death Eaters that Harry named that are still free are now making themselves a bit scarce.

There were Death Eaters that Voldemort did not speak to at his rebirthing party. We don't know who they are, so they are safe to be in public for the time being.

Solitaire - Feb 3, 2005 11:16 pm (#397 of 800)

Well, if Harry is taken seriously, there could be a round-up of those he named who weren't captured (are there any left?). If so, maybe we will hear more "songbirds"--a la Karkaroff!

Solitaire

Archangel - Feb 4, 2005 12:14 am (#398 of 800)
Edited by Feb 4, 2005 12:15 am

Hmmm, I not sure about the "snitch and squeal" scenario mainly because the circumstances of the arrests are different. Most of the DEs that squealed on their fellow DEs did so out of fear of being locked up in Azkaban and fear that they may never get out of the prison because Voldemort is gone. This time around, their arrests happened or would happen while Voldemort is gaining power and their "guards" have become their allies. From a DEs point of view, this is not the time to save one's skin... yet.

Wand Maker - Feb 5, 2005 7:02 pm (#399 of 800)

Yes, I don't think that any of the caught Death Eaters will be willing to sing, with Voldemort back. It is likely that Voldemort will want to spring any captured DEs - these are his most devoted supporters, after all.

In GoF, Voldemort says the names of the following Death Eaters: Wormtail, Avery, Lucius, (the two Lestranges), Macnair, Crabbe, Goyle, Nott. There were three implied most faithful (Crouch Jr.), Two afraid (Karkaroff), Left forever (Snape).

In the MoM in OoP, Lucius names the following Death Eaters: Nott, Jugson, Bellatrix, Rodolphus, Crabbe, Rabastan, Dolohov, Macnair, Avery, Rookwood, and Mulciber.

So, Goyle and Bellatrix are the only named Death Eaters still with Voldemort that were not captured in the MoM. That was actually quite a few of the Death Eaters caught.

Bellatrix will not just walk around for anyone to pick her up.

I wonder how many of the previously accused Death Eaters (from WWI) that were cleared haven't yet been mentioned.

Weeny Owl - Feb 5, 2005 8:22 pm (#400 of 800)

I disagree with the coward and the one who has left forever, but all of that is archived on the old Snape threads.

There were twelve Death Eaters in the Department of Mysteries, but Harry said something in GoF about being outnumbered by at least 30 to 1.

In the Graveyard, he named about a third of them, if Harry's account is fairly accurate. That means that there are another twenty or so Death Eaters wandering around and no one knows who they are.

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Solitaire - Feb 5, 2005 10:51 pm (#401 of 800)

Is it possible that some of those DEs were on hand at the final Triwizard Tournament event, visiting from other countries? After all, Karkaroff, a former DE, is from another country. Perhaps some of the spectators were from other European countries. In the hubbub, it might have been easy enough to slip outside the gates of Hogwarts and Apparate. Lucius certainly managed to get there. From where did he Apparate ... home or just outside Hogwarts grounds? We really do not know.

Solitaire

Weeny Owl - Feb 6, 2005 2:08 am (#402 of 800)

Foreign Death Eaters are certainly possible, but if a witch or wizard lived and worked in another part of Europe besides Great Britain, they'd have a more difficult time doing much there.

I'm more interested in the people we've already met who might be Death Eaters, and ones who attended the rebirthing.

There are around twenty unnamed Death Eaters from the rebirthing, and some of them have to be spies at the Ministry. Sirius said that Voldemort would have spies there.

We know that McGonagall and Snape are part of the Order, but what about other teachers at Hogwarts? Could any of them be Death Eaters?

Then, there's always St. Mungo's. After what happened to Bode, it wouldn't surprise me if someone on staff was a Death Eater. The Devil's Snare might have been brought in by a visitor, but between Malfoy giving St. Mungo's a ton of money, no one noticing that Bode's plant was dangerous regardless of who brought it in, and the Longbottoms not improving, there could be a few Death Eaters employed there.

Solitaire - Feb 6, 2005 9:26 am (#403 of 800)

We know that McGonagall and Snape are part of the Order, but what about other teachers at Hogwarts? Could any of them be Death Eaters?

Wow! It was scary enough just to learn about Fake Moody. I hate to think what other teacher might be a DE. Any ideas?

Here is another idea: If Lucius were there, wouldn't it be likely that Narcissa--if she is a DE, as well--was also present? Could some of the others have been spouses of those named? We know that Crabbe and Goyle have children at Hogwarts, which suggests that Mrs. Crabbe and Mrs. Goyle may also be DEs (surely any DE spouse who did not support Voldemort would have been killed). While this is merely speculation, if it is correct, there could have been several couples among the DEs, and that could account for the numbers. Just a thought ...

Edit: I completely agree that there are other anonymous DEs in the Ministry. It would explain why certain things happen as they do ... or are ignored as they are ... I also agree about St. Mungo's. It is the perfect place for DEs to "hide in plain sight," and it explains a lot.

Solitaire

Wand Maker - Feb 6, 2005 3:42 pm (#404 of 800)

I forgot about the at "least to one" line in GOF, Weeny. Voldemort still has plenty of Death Eaters around him, including any more that he might have recruited since his rebirth.

I guess that it is possible that Narcissa is a Death Eater and was on Lucius left in the graveyard. I just got the feeling that Jo would have written something about the Malfoys being more of a pair. Could going into the MoM have been enough of a risk that Narcissa did not accompany Lucius, to keep her identity a bit more secret? There were other Death Eaters in the MoM that I don't remember hearing about before.

If not Death Eaters in St. Mungo’s, then supporters that might even turn a blind eye at times.

Weeny Owl - Feb 6, 2005 8:57 pm (#405 of 800)

The thing with the Malfoys, and maybe with other married couples except the Lestranges, is that maybe only one person from a couple is an actual Death Eater, while the other is just supportive of the cause.

It's possible, although not probable, perhaps, that couples with children make a decision that only one will become a Death Eater, leaving the other as a back-up in case.

I have no way of knowing, of course, but since Kreacher respects Narcissa, she is either a Death Eater, or she is similar to Sirius’ mother in that she supports the cause but never actually got the Dark Mark. I cannot, in any way, shape, or form, believe that Narcissa is anything but a follower of Voldemort, even if she hasn't totally jumped into the fray yet. I cannot see her as ever supporting the good guys.

Solitaire - Feb 6, 2005 10:23 pm (#406 of 800)

I cannot, in any way, shape, or form, believe that Narcissa is anything but a follower of Voldemort, even if she hasn't totally jumped into the fray yet. I cannot see her as ever supporting the good guys

I agree completely. If she'd been working against him or attempting to undermine Lucius, she'd have been toast by now. I suspect she is as evil as Bella. She just has more "class" and knows how to control herself in public. Bella is one loose cannon! I wouldn't be surprised to see Bella on the receiving end of a tirade from Narcissa, as being at least partially responsible for Lucius landing in Azkaban.

Solitaire

Delightful Task! - Feb 7, 2005 10:21 am (#407 of 800)

As Death Eaters seem to embody everything I hate, I imagine they are rather sexist and want their wives to remain at home! I'm not even sure Narcissa ever imagined she could be a DE! She's just a woman after all! And this rather seems to be a male thing!

Bellatrix is a kind of exception for me, and her husband doesn't seem to be a match for her.

I'm new to that thread but I've just read JKR's interview at the Edinburgh Book Festival again , where she mentions Snape not being a "Muggle-born"

Anyway I was more puzzled by this part: "Muggle-borns are not allowed to be Death Eaters, except in rare circumstances." Why did JKR need to mention that? My feeling is that she would not talk about it if she had not created a Muggle-born DE! But on the other hand I can't find who this could be! Have I missed something here? Do you know who the "rare" Muggle-born DEs are? I can't help thinking It must be important!

(I tried the search function but couldn't find anything... but that must be because I don't use it correctly!)

Weeny Owl - Feb 7, 2005 10:58 am (#408 of 800)

I don't see the Death Eaters as sexist, but I do see JKR making most of them men until the war really starts, because I think she's going to surprise us with some people who do end up as Death Eaters. So far we've seen Bella as the only known female Death Eater, so I can imagine a few more women being outed in HBP.

I don't see Voldemort caring about the gender of a follower, but only the loyalty and power that follower has.

I also found that comment about Muggle-borns to be interesting.

timrew - Feb 7, 2005 3:35 pm (#409 of 800)

So can we expect an appearance of Mrs. Crabbe and Mrs. Goyle (senior)?

Solitaire - Feb 7, 2005 7:44 pm (#410 of 800)

Personally, Tim ... I can't wait! I really can't wait to see a fan drawing of the two of them! hehe (If I could draw, I'd do it myself! I have quite the mental pic of them both!)

Solitaire

Weeny Owl - Feb 7, 2005 8:29 pm (#411 of 800)

I would also like to know which other Death Eaters have children at Hogwarts. I think there will be a few surprises there as well.

Solitaire - Feb 9, 2005 2:20 am (#412 of 800)

Whom do you suspect, Weeny, other than the obvious ones we already know? I'm dying of curiosity ... it must be my cat Animagus! LOL

Weeny Owl - Feb 9, 2005 11:49 am (#413 of 800)

LOL, Solitaire.

I don't suspect anyone in particular, but with Hagrid stating that there wasn't a witch or wizard who went bad who wasn't a Slytherin, and with Peter Pettigrew being bad and a Gryffindor, I just think that there will have to be students from houses other than Slytherin whose parents support Voldemort.

Solitaire - Feb 9, 2005 8:12 pm (#414 of 800)

Yes, I'll admit that would certainly knock the wind out of a lot of people ... both readers and characters!

TomoÈ - Feb 9, 2005 9:01 pm (#415 of 800)

Delightful Task! -> Anyway I was more puzzled by this part: "Muggle-borns are not allowed to be Death Eaters, except in rare circumstances." Why did JKR need to mention that? My feeling is that she would not talk about it if she had not created a Muggle-born DE! But on the other hand I can't find who this could be! Have I missed something here? Do you know who the "rare" Muggle-born DEs are? I can't help thinking It must be important!

I believe it's Peter, and I believe it's why none of the marauders suspected him.

As for a DEs child for any other house than Slytherin, we don't have much clue.

Delightful Task! - Feb 10, 2005 1:21 am (#416 of 800)

I agree with you TomoÈ, it must be Pettigrew... Do we have any proof that he is Muggle-born, though?

As for Narcissa, when I said I didn't think she was a DE, I didn't mean she was a nice and poor woman either... Actually, here in France we've had a strange phenomenon with the extreme right... Some far right politicians were elected as mayors, then convicted for different reasons... As they were not able to run for the following election, their wives ran as candidates, and they were elected... It was clear though that their ideas were those of their husbands, who were always close behind... and it was also clear that the electors had voted for a name, trusting the policies of the wife would be the same as those of the husband... According to me, that's why Narcissa could become more important in the following book... With Lucius in jail, she might be asked to represent him in a way or another... Lucius was always in different boards or at the Ministry, and I suppose Narcissa could do that very well...

Eric Bailey - Feb 10, 2005 5:21 am (#417 of 800)

Oh, I'd guess Narcissa is a full fledged DE, but she wouldn't go on missions with her husband. They have a child and family business to consider, so it's best that she not risk capture. I suppose now we'll see how much in common she has with her sister, Bellatrix.

As for JKR's comment about Muggle-borns, there may not be any. But, if I was Voldemort, and I was scouting the current Hogwarts student body, a certain Muggle-born would be at the top of my wish list. She'd reject the offer, of course, but I could see him making the recruiting attempt. Now, THAT would finally drive Draco around the bend, sending him to St. Mungo’s. Smile

Solitaire - Feb 10, 2005 7:15 am (#418 of 800)

I agree with your statement about Narcissa. She was most likely a DE before Draco was born but retired from "active duty" during pregnancy and following childbirth. Voldemort was probably vaporized by the time she would have been ready to return to duty.

Solitaire

TomoÈ - Feb 10, 2005 9:10 am (#419 of 800)

Do we have any proof that Peter is a Muggle-born? Not much, we know Sirius was a pure-blood, James was likely one also or half-blood at least, Remus is half-blood, so a Muggle-born would balance the gang (Lily wasn't around until their seventh year). There's also the fact Voldemort treat Peter like vermin.

Anyway, for a Muggle-born to become DE, Voldemort have to take them in, so they have to bring the Dark Lord something no one else can. Wormtail, as the only marauder who was willing to sell the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord's family, would fit that criterion. It would also give a good reason for Peter to betray, Voldemort was winning and there was no place for Muggle-borns in Voldemort's world, he needed to bargain himself a place in that world.

Weeny Owl - Feb 10, 2005 9:14 am (#420 of 800)

They have a child and family business to consider

What family business? Lucius seemed to spend his time bribing or threatening people, but where is there a mention of a family business?

I love your analysis, Tomoe, and if Pettigrew isn't a Muggle-born, he should be!

ex-FAHgeek - Feb 10, 2005 11:46 am (#421 of 800)

---quote--- What family business? Lucius seemed to spend his time bribing or threatening people, but where is there a mention of a family business? ---end quote---

Lobbying, sitting on boards, acting as an advisor/consultant, eating death, etc. It's not a "business" with a name and a shop with 9-5 hours six days a week, but it certainly encompasses their daily activities and livelihood.

pottermom34 - Feb 10, 2005 4:20 pm (#422 of 800)

Maybe his business is the Wizard Mafia , extortion, racketeering, money laundering etc. The way his and Draco's hair is "slicked back" one might think so. He kind of fits the persona. "The Godwizard".

Nathan Zimmermann - Feb 10, 2005 8:07 pm (#423 of 800)

Pottermom34 that is a most interesting thought and presents some points of interest. For example, The presence of the Dark Mark on the arm of the Death Eaters seem to me to be the result of some form of initiation ceremony.

Weeny Owl - Feb 10, 2005 10:48 pm (#424 of 800)

Where does it say that either Lucius or Draco have hair that is slicked back? The only descriptions of them that I remember are that they both have pale pointed faces, gray eyes, and blond hair.

TomoÈ - Feb 10, 2005 11:34 pm (#425 of 800)

Thanks Weeny Owl!

I think the Malfoys' business is mafia-like, but I doubt Voldemort's business is. Mafia-like systems' goal is power for power sake, Voldemort's goal with the DE is to get rid of the non-pure-blood, it's more akin to KKK. Draco is important in the Malfoy's business and Narcissa too, their "customers" must believe their investments will still be honored if anything is to happen to Lucius (like getting imprisoned).

About Peter and Voldemort, the spy problem appeared a year before Voldemort's demise, which mean no so far after Harry's birth. It doesn't seem like Voldemort had any interest in Wormtail before. Or maybe it's the other way around, Wormtail didn't have any interest in Voldemort before Harry's birth (though I don't quite see how Harry's birth could have made Peter to switch side). Anyway, the birth of Harry is the thing that provokes their alliance.

pottermom34 - Feb 11, 2005 10:18 am (#426 of 800)

I thought I was something about the hair somewhere maybe not. Just a mental picture thinking of Draco in the movies.

Weeny Owl - Feb 11, 2005 11:31 am (#427 of 800)

One of my problems with the movies is that they contaminate what JKR has actually written.

Even Walden Macnair isn't portrayed the way he's described in the books.

I don't know, Tomoe. It's possible Harry's birth had an effect on Wormtail, but from what he said in PoA, I get the impression that he was just a weak person who wanted to ally himself with those stronger. Sirius said something about that as well.

TomoÈ - Feb 11, 2005 2:50 pm (#428 of 800)

The question is why didn't Peter ally himself with Voldemort sooner, was the Order winning before 1980 or was Voldemort uninterested by Peter's candidature. If the second is true, what would make Peter less interesting than Avery or Nott? Muggle-born/half-blood is the only thing I can see. Anyone have other idea?

timrew - Feb 11, 2005 4:33 pm (#429 of 800)
ExFAHgeek What family business?

Yes, does Voldie pay his Death Eaters? And if so, how much?

I can see Lucius counting his pay-packet at the end of GOF........

Lucius: "I'm about £100 short, here....."
Voldemort: "And......?"
Lucius: "Well.....why.......?"
Voldemort: ""Because you let them all escape, you plonker!....."
Lucius: "Oh.......okay........"

wwtMask - Feb 12, 2005 10:17 am (#430 of 800)

I'm sorry, where was it said that Lupin is half-blood? I recall Umbridge calling him (in an offhanded way) a "dangerous half-breed". I always attributed this to her ignorance and racism. After all, any human, pure-blood, half-blood, Muggle-born, or Muggle, can become a werewolf.

Weeny Owl - Feb 12, 2005 12:07 pm (#431 of 800)

From the World Book Day chat:

"Siriusstar: Is Remus a pure-blood?

JKR: Half blood."

Solitaire - Feb 12, 2005 12:08 pm (#432 of 800)

About Lucius Malfoy's hair ... near the end of CoS, when he bursts into Dumbledore's office with Dobby: Apparently Mr. Malfoy had set out in a great hurry, for not only were his shoes half-polished, but his usually sleek hair was disheveled.

I always supposed sleek just meant it was usually neatly combed. I tend to think of Lucius as impeccably groomed. Even if you look at the "movie contaminated" Lucius, doesn't he usually wear his hair neatly brushed and tied back? And even movie Draco's previously slicked blond hair sports a looser cut in PoA, I seem to remember.

While the Malfoys may not have a "family business," per se, I tend to agree with ex-FAHgeek. I figure Lucius makes a full-time job of threatening people, blackmailing school governors to do as he wishes, plotting and planning with Voldemort, bribing government officials, etc. I'm sure he finds it quite as time-consuming as he would if it WERE a business! And Narcissa will surely have to "keep up his work."

Solitaire

pottermom34 - Feb 12, 2005 7:39 pm (#433 of 800)

I agree with you Solitaire that's why I mentioned the Mafia theory. Those are the same kinds of things mobsters or henchmen would do, and now that I read the quote you wrote above (and remember it myself) about his usually sleek hair, that's where I got the slicked back idea. Incidentally I didn't think the movies contaminated, granted they weren't always completely accurate because that would make it a miniseries not a movie, I think they gave us a better visual of what the characters are like.

Solitaire - Feb 12, 2005 7:44 pm (#434 of 800)

Oh, a Harry Potter Miniseries! Now, there's a great idea down the road, in the future! They could really be faithful to the story.

TomProffitt - Feb 13, 2005 7:42 am (#435 of 800)

At the risk of straying off topic, I'd like to put in my two knuts about movie contamination.

I wrote a couple of short one act plays in college for my drama group (nothing much really, almost just skits), but I always had our faculty advisor direct them. I thought he could do a better job with them. And they were always better for it I thought.

Whether you're talking about a play or a movie, an ensemble effort brings out a lot more people's interpretations than the author's. I think Jo realizes that. She allows the directors to stray from the books and add their interpretations, because it is both a unavoidable and positive outcome of the medium, and because I think she likes to see what other people would do with her work.

I like both the books and the movies, but they are going to show things differently.

Movie Hermione is nothing like the Hermione I picture when I read, but I enjoy the character very much.

Conversely Snape and Lucius Malfoy are almost exactly as I pictured them.

(And let's not even talk about Tom from the Leaky Cauldron)

Solitaire - Feb 13, 2005 5:43 pm (#436 of 800)

Tom, I agree with you about those three characters. Movie Hermione is a lot prettier than I imagined her in the books ... until she showed up as Krum's date in GoF, when we (and Harry) became aware that there was actual beauty there. Actually, she seemed a bit more know-it-all and self-important--like book Hermione--in the beginning of the first movie.

Snape and Lucius, however, really do seem just as nasty in the movies as in the books. Their characters translate beautifully. In fact, I can totally believe both Alan Rickman and Jason Isaacs as DEs! LOL

Solitaire

haymoni - Feb 13, 2005 6:33 pm (#437 of 800)

Lucius, yes - Snape, no.

Snape is far more wicked to Harry in the books than he is in the movies. The only scene that even touched on his loathing of Harry was in SS/PS and it was cut. The whole bit about how Harry should be on bended knee for Snape saving him in POA was cut - among other things.

However, that is not Alan Rickman's fault. He is doing a fantastic job with what little they have given him.

I'm still not clear as to which I are in Azkaban and who is still out and about - the DEs that we know of I mean.

Does anyone have a list of who is in and who is out? I don't have my books at hand right now. Bella was the only DE who was at the MOM to get away, correct? Lucius got caught. Did Crabbe and Goyle get caught? I know Nott was there, Dolohov was there. Was Macnair there? I'll have to get my OotP out again, but if anyone feels like saving me the trouble...

Weeny Owl - Feb 13, 2005 8:41 pm (#438 of 800)

I agree with that, haymoni.

Snape's personality is never quite right in the movies, and even the way he treats Hermione isn't quite as mean.

He was livid in the Shrieking Shack, and he called Hermione a stupid girl, yet in the movie, he said nothing to her.

We can't get into a discussion about the movies or we'll get our hands (and wings) smacked, but Snape just isn't quite Snape to me.

Bella was the only Death Eater who wasn't caught. Goyle wasn't there.

The Death Eaters who were at the Department of Mysteries were:

• Lucius Malfoy
• Bellatrix Lestrange
• Rodolphus Lestrange
• Rabastan Lestrange
• Walden Macnair
• Antonin Dolohov
• Augustus Rookwood
• Avery
• Crabbe
• Jugson
• Mulciber
• Nott

Nott wasn't too involved since he was injured early on.

dizzy lizzy - Feb 13, 2005 10:50 pm (#439 of 800)

There is a good essay on the Lexicon regarding the DEs and their battle in the MoM. Interesting to say the least when it comes to how they author deducted who was who.

Eric Bailey - Feb 14, 2005 12:22 am (#440 of 800)

"Tom, I agree with you about those three characters. Movie Hermione is a lot prettier than I imagined her in the books ... until she showed up as Krum's date in GoF, when we (and Harry) became aware that there was actual beauty there. Actually, she seemed a bit more know-it-all and self-important--like book Hermione--in the beginning of the first movie.

Snape and Lucius, however, really do seem just as nasty in the movies as in the books. Their characters translate beautifully. In fact, I can totally believe both Alan Rickman and Jason Isaacs as DEs! LOL"""

Snape also certainly isn't described, in the books, as the sex symbol with loads of drooling fangirls Alan Rickman has made him into. In the books, he's described in very unattractive tones, the hook-nose, the yellow teeth. He's also a lot cooler in the movies, not always snarling like book-Snape. Also, Draco isn't described in the books as Tom Felton, but "ferret faced", with pointy features. So, I don't understand the double standard of singling out Emma Watson being prettier than Hermione is described. Even Harry in the movies doesn't look like the geeky looking kid on the early book covers. It's a movie thing. I'm pretty sure none of us pictured Voldemort as the English Patient with red eyes, but that's what we're getting.

Delightful Task! - Feb 14, 2005 7:29 am (#441 of 800)

I'm not really a fan of the movies, and I have to admit it's partly because the characters are much nicer in the films than in the books... It reminds me of fairy tales after Disney rewrote them... ( Azkaban was perhaps a bit better than the others...!) Anyway, what I mean is that JKR's description of the wizarding world is much more violent than what we see in the movies... or much more weird, or nasty... Even the good characters. As if being a witch or a wizard, you had to be excessive. That's the way JKR describes them of course, physically. She is drawing kinds of caricatures. She's clearly not interested in nice and good-looking people ( in her books at least!!!)

Choices - Feb 14, 2005 9:31 am (#442 of 800)

Eric - "Snape also certainly isn't described, in the books, as the sex symbol with loads of drooling fangirls Alan Rickman has made him into".

In defense of Rickman - I really don't think it was a conscience effort on his part to make Snape into a sex symbol. The man can hardly be blamed for being adored by millions of women fans. I think he is a perfect Snape - not quite as greasy and yellow-toothed as in the books, but that is the movie make-up people's fault, not Rickman's. He just can't help being gorgeous. LOL

Denise P. - Feb 14, 2005 9:59 am (#443 of 800)

Remember, no matter how much we may like or dislike a HP actor, discussion of that actor needs to take place in either the appropriate movie thread or on the cast thread

haymoni - Feb 17, 2005 4:04 pm (#444 of 800)

Thanks for the list.

The question remains - who is left to help Voldy?

• Bella
• Wormtail
• Goyle
• Snape in his role as a double agent (possibly!)
• Narcissa
• Kreacher

Anyone else?

Weeny Owl - Feb 17, 2005 4:32 pm (#445 of 800)

In the graveyard scene in GoF, Harry was thinking that he was outnumbered by about 30 to 1... those 30 included Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle, Nott, Avery, Macnair, and Wormtail. Voldemort also mentioned the Lestranges, but they weren't present. That leaves at least 20 unknown and unnamed Death Eaters wandering around with no one suspicious... or at least no one we've been told is suspicious.

Albus Silente - Mar 2, 2005 7:49 am (#446 of 800)

I actually don't know on which thread to place this, anyhow I hope it will go well here.

...it was the sound he connected with Dumbledore, and it was almost as though a friend was speaking in his ear...

Don't break the connection. (Bloomsbury, pg. 576- Priori Incantatem)

We know that Snape is a quite skilled Legilimens, we know Dumbledore trusts Snape, we know he was a DE, we know time-turners exist. It is not yet sure that Snape wasn't at the Rebirthing Party. What if the "friend speaking in his ear" was the masked Snape putting the "Don't break the connection" into Harry's mind by Legilimency? Even if LV was more skilled than Snape, he already had too much to struggle with than listening to other people's thoughts. Harry instead in the chaos might not have been aware that the voice was Snape's and took it for a voice from somewhere or even Dumbledore's of Fawkes'.

Prefect Marcus - Mar 2, 2005 9:48 am (#447 of 800)

If Snape could send secret messages to Harry's brain in the Graveyard, why didn't he send secret messages to Harry in Umbridge's office?

You might wish to continue this on the Snape thread since it pre-supposes that Snape was in the Graveyard, and that is one of the topics being dealt with over there.

Nathan Zimmermann - Mar 13, 2005 4:11 pm (#448 of 800)

Haymoni, in Post number 444 there is one Death Eater you did not mention in your post. Travers who murdered Marlene McKinnon.

haymoni - Mar 16, 2005 4:39 pm (#449 of 800)

Thank you, Nathan.

It just doesn't seem enough to be much of a force, does it?

Nathan Zimmermann - Mar 16, 2005 9:18 pm (#450 of 800)

Haymoni, the only two on that list who have the potential of becoming leaders among the Death Eaters are Narcissa and Bella. The problem with Bella is her short temper. Narcissa on the other hand seems to have ice in her veins.

In order to be successful Harry must place Voldemort into a position in which a zugzwang occurs. A zugzwang is chess term. It means forcing one's opponent into making a disadvantageous move with the result being the loss of one or more pieces and a loss of momentum.

Harry has done this once already by temporarily neutralizing Lucius Malfoy, Macnair, Rookwood, the Lestrange brothers, Mulciber, and Dolohov.

The loss of Bellatrix or Narcissa at this point would be highly disadvantageous to Voldemort. Because, Pettigrew for all the ability he has as a wizard, he is also a liability to Voldemort, in that were he shown to be living, it could possibly force a reexamination of the events of October 31, 1981. Such a reexamination might demonstrate the innocence of Sirius Black and the complicity of Peter Pettigrew in the 14 murders.

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Maollelujah - Mar 16, 2005 10:17 pm (#451 of 800)

There is most likely another leader or two among the twenty unknown Death Eaters.

Also the number of Death Eaters are likely to grow as I am sure that Lucius spent some of his time (during days of a bodiless Voldie) finding like minded young idealists willing to join the service. (Much as the Order has new members.)

Choices - Mar 17, 2005 9:00 am (#452 of 800)

How can we speculate that Narcissa has leadership abilities when we barely know her. We have never seen her in action and do we even know for sure that she is a DE? Maybe she is a sweet little homebody and it is just Lucius that is a DE. Also, I believe Bellatrix is too crazed and rash to be a good leader. She has the mentality of a suicide bomber. She may be a good follower (as long as Voldemort can keep her under control), but I don't see her as an effective leader.

Nathan Zimmermann - Mar 17, 2005 9:28 am (#453 of 800)

Choices, I based my speculations on J.K Rowling's statement that we as readers would be seeing more of Narcissa now that Lucius is otherwise occupied. There are many possibilities that exist to explain this statement among the ones that need to be considered is Narcissa will act as the principal agent for Lucius during his imprisonment.

As to Bella even people who possess temperaments akin to that of suicide bombers are capable of planning and leadership. Her innate leadership skill is demonstrated by the fact that on J.K. Rowling's web site, she is one of the people whose name appears on an award within J.K. Rowling's trophy case.

Choices - Mar 17, 2005 10:20 am (#454 of 800)

Nathan - "she is one of the people whose name appears on an award within J.K. Rowling's trophy case."

Hmmmm....that depends on what the award is for, doesn't it? Maybe it has nothing to do with leadership - maybe it's just a Nasty Mean Witch award?

Nathan Zimmermann - Mar 17, 2005 6:13 pm (#455 of 800)

Perhaps, but the possibility cannot be dismissed outright because, even though she is a zealot she is an extremely powerful witch as was demonstrated in the DoM.

Delightful Task! - Mar 21, 2005 6:55 am (#456 of 800)

LOL Choices! And now, Miss Nasty Mean Witch... Bellatrix Black!

I'm not sure about Narcissa being a Death Eater... She might have to become one now Lucius isn't there any more after all... But that's not how I imagined the Malfoy family. I rather thought she let that kind of things to her husband (Which doesn't mean I think she's nice and all!)

I don't think the DEs will remain in Azkaban for a long time anyway... But Bellatrix, as a leader or on her own, is definitely extremely dangerous! But she's so hysterical that it might lead her to make mistakes...

Solitaire - Mar 21, 2005 9:12 am (#457 of 800)

It seems as though Voldemort may hold Bella responsible for the destruction of the prophecy ...

Be quiet, Bella," said Voldemort dangerously. "I shall deal with you in a moment. Do you think I have entered the Ministry of Magic to hear your sniveling apologies?"

Then again, perhaps it was simply anger that she was the only one left to punish, the others having been apprehended. In truth, she did seem to be more interested in dueling with Sirius and torturing and taunting Harry and Neville than in getting the prophecy, which was the reason she was there in the first place. I'm sure she will be reminded of that by her Master.

Solitaire

MickeyCee3948 - Mar 25, 2005 9:54 am (#458 of 800)

Oh, I hope so, Solitaire. Would love to see a scene where she is on the floor enduring extreme pain and suffering. Yes, Yes, YES!!!!

MIkie

Astragynia Winifred Posy Miranda Yseult Cawdor - Apr 29, 2005 11:57 pm (#459 of 800)
Edited Apr 30, 2005 1:00 am

Back when this thread was comparing the DEs (or at least the Malfoys) to the Mafia, Tomoe said: "Mafia-like systems' goal is power for power sake, Voldemort's goal with the DE is to get rid of the non-pure-blood, it's more akin to KKK."

Is that his goal, though? It seems to me that though Voldemort has internalised the "Muggles are inferior" mindset (and so is ashamed of his own background), he's much more interested in power and immortality for himself than he is in the pure-blood cause.

What I find most interesting about the Death Eaters is that instead of being mindless, personality-less minions, JK Rowling has given them such a wide variety of motivations for supporting "the Dark Lord:" pure-blood ideology of hatred for Muggles (Mrs. Black, Bellatrix), ambition for personal power in Voldemort's future new world order (Lucius, Quirrell?), self-preservation/protection (Wormtail), an excuse to kill (Macnair), an excuse to use the dark arts, torture, and generally abuse others (Bellatrix, Snape?)... etc.

All of these are interconnected, of course; for example, a lot of racism is based on an assumption that you have a "right" to more power and higher status than somebody else, based on race/birth/whatever.

And, if the Death Eaters hold to the pattern of most Muggle groups, then there are also people who are in it just to get rich, or just because their friends are.

Figuring out who supports Voldie for which reasons could be the key to defeating him (or more to the point, it could be key to predicting the plot). Opinions?

Ponine - Apr 30, 2005 3:16 am (#460 of 800)

Astra - I always perceived this variety to reflect the notion that the world is not divided into good people and Death Eaters. Just like non-Death Eaters can be cruel, kind, rich, self-righteous etc, the many DEs are also 'very' non-uniform. They have different motives, drives and aspirations, and I appreciate the fact that they have lives of their own, so to speak, rather than being a blob of evil people indistinguishable from each other. That being said, I really like your point, and it may very well come into play - I look forward to hearing other people's views about this.

Puck - Apr 30, 2005 6:22 pm (#461 of 800)

I think this shows that the DEs are everywhere, come from many walks of life, so to speak. They are pervasive, which will make it harder to tract them down and get rid of them.

TomoÈ - May 2, 2005 5:19 am (#462 of 800)
Edited May 2, 2005 6:21 am

Astragynia Winifred Posy Miranda Yseult Cawdor -> Back when this thread was comparing the DEs (or at least the Malfoys) to the Mafia, Tomoe said: "Mafia-like systems' goal is power for power sake, Voldemort's goal with the DE is to get rid of the non-pure-blood, it's more akin to KKK."

I read somewhere in one of the book (can't remember now) a phrasing going like "Voldemort's first attempt to take power" which would mean he was trying to overtake the ministry, he would be more akin to Hitler than the KKK.

Edit: Sure the DEs have all kind of motivation but they are not the ones in command, Voldemort has the final word in regard of their common goals.

Solitaire - May 2, 2005 6:15 am (#463 of 800)

Voldemort was sort of MIA for a long time. It may well be that some of those old DEs (Malfoy, Macnair, etc.) have found "socially acceptable" ways to continue the activities that "amuse" them without Voldemort. The problem with an outfit like Voldemort's is that, eventually, someone within that group may decide he or she is better suited to be "in power." Just tossing out a new bone to chew for a bit ...

Solitaire

TomoÈ - May 2, 2005 6:59 am (#464 of 800)
Edited May 2, 2005 7:59 am

The question is who is powerful enough to overthrow a man that can read most of people mind, don't think of your coup to loud before hand or he'll kill you ...

Plus, Voldemort is unkillable, even himself couldn't do it. Harry is the only one with the power to vanquish Voldy, sure not all the DE know that, but they know the steps Voldemort took to become immortal.

He's immortal, he can read your mind, Dumbledore said he knows more magic than any living wizard and was the most brilliant student Hogwarts ever had, which DE is powerful enough to take over that monster?

Choices - May 2, 2005 7:51 am (#465 of 800)

I think getting rid of Muggle-borns and half-bloods is just a sideline with Voldemort. He did teach Quirrell that "there is only power and those too weak to seek it". Voldemort is on a huge power trip and I think that is his main goal - becoming the most powerful wizard in the world.

Solitaire - May 2, 2005 9:41 am (#466 of 800)

I have one question: What would he do after he achieved that goal? What would be left for him to achieve? Eventually he would have killed all of the Muggles, Muggle-borns, and others he deems unworthy to live. What then? What is the point of living?

Solitaire

Choices - May 2, 2005 10:10 am (#467 of 800)
Edited May 2, 2005 11:11 am

Oh, I think there would always be new undesirables to kill and more power to gain. There would be new candidates vying for Voldemort's position - new contenders for the title of most powerful wizard in the world. He would want to move on to conquer new areas of the world to include in his domain and recruit new followers. After all, a dictator's work is never done.

TomoÈ - May 2, 2005 12:08 pm (#468 of 800)

After conquering death and humanity, what about conquering time and rewrite the history to way you want it to be?

Solitaire - May 2, 2005 9:42 pm (#469 of 800)

Although, who would be around to read it?

dizzy lizzy - May 2, 2005 10:53 pm (#470 of 800)
Edited May 2, 2005 11:53 pm

Or the will and interest to read it?

Lizzy

Puck - May 3, 2005 5:18 am (#471 of 800)

I think that's kind of the point. Those who seek such power do so with little regard to the consequences. I'm sure neither Voldy nor the DE have thought of much other than their short-sighted goals.

TomoÈ - May 3, 2005 8:36 am (#472 of 800)
Edited May 3, 2005 9:38 am

Solitaire -> Although, who would be around to read it?

The brand new human race Voldemort will create. ^_~

dizzy lizzy Or the will and interest to read it?

They will be create with the will and the interest to read it. ^_~

They will be created to worship him. ^_~

wwtMask - May 3, 2005 12:07 pm (#473 of 800)

Ultimately, I think what matters more to Voldemort than anything else is power (over death especially). If there had not already been a strong undercurrent of racism against Muggle-borns, he would have gladly latched onto another divisive ideology as long as it allowed him to draw powerful people to him. That doesn't mean he isn't a racist, I just don't think racism is what makes him get out of bed each morning. We see now that he's abandoned Muggle persecution as a strategy because it is a dead end and a waste of effort. There is no reason for him to keep up that front when everyone really knows he's just after power.

I think Astra is right on point. It stands to reason that one of the identifying marks of Voldemort's followers would be racism. These are powerful people or people seeking power; they already feel or want to feel superior anyway. It is easy to feel that way when your target is a weak minority anyway.

Finn BV - May 14, 2005 1:03 pm (#474 of 800)
Edited May 14, 2005 1:44 pm

The Three DEs at the End of GoF

We know that in GoF Voldie says (p. 651 US), "One, too cowardly to return... he will pay. One, who I believe has left me forever... he will be killed, of course... and one, who remains my most faithful servant, and who has already reentered my service."

Which people that we know are Death Eaters do we think are these three?

My first guess would be the cowardly one = Karkaroff, the faithful one = Crouch, Jr., and the "left me forever" one = Snape. So, why would Voldie have said "I believe has left me forever..."? What did this person do that gives Voldie question in his mind?

Also, the coward is going to "pay" but the one gone forever is going to "die"? How would they pay? I look forward to whom we speculate these three DEs are.

Nathan Zimmermann - May 14, 2005 12:51 pm (#475 of 800)
Edited May 14, 2005 2:17 pm

There are several possible interpretations of that passage which come to mind

First, if one assumes that Karkaroff is the DE mentioned by Voldemort as being too cowardly to return and who will be made to pay. Is it possible that Karkaroff may pay Voldemort by killing Severus in essence paying the debt Voldemort feels he is owed by Karkaroff by killing Snape again assuming that Snape is the Death Eater who has left Voldemort's service forever. Such a theorem mandates that Crouch Jr. is the faithful DE who reentered Voldemort's service.

Second, If Snape is the DE mentioned by Voldemort as being too cowardly to return and who will be made to pay. Then there seem to be two possibilities here: One that the retribution will be exacted by Voldemort himself; two could Crouch Jr. have been instructed to exact the retribution. Karkaroff's actions during GoF seem to dismiss him from consideration as the faithful DE and would mark him as the DE to be killed.

Also, I have two questions first, If Snape is the faithful DE then why did his image appear in the Foe Glass with McGonagall and Dumbledore's when they confronted Crouch Jr. Second, if Voldemort believed that Crouch Jr. was unfaithful and left him forever why entrust a traitor like Crouch Jr. to impersonate Moody instead of having Pettigrew take on the assignment.

GryffEndora - May 14, 2005 2:08 pm (#476 of 800)

There is another possibility. Crouch Jr. may not have been any one of the three. We have no proof that he even has the Mark on his arm. Crouch Jr. could have been in the wrong place at the wrong time, gone to prison for a crime he didn't commit, been driven mad by the Dementors and his father's mistrust, and become loyal to LV after entering Azkaban. Bertha tells LV about Crouch Jr.'s existence and that he is loyal to LV now so LV shows up to use the boy and his father. Crouch Jr. could have also just been recruited by the DE and was along with the three to see how loyal he would become. He didn't necessarily participate in the torture but again, after his father's distrust, turns to LV's side but never takes the Mark.

I know people on this forum have speculated that the faithful DE may still be at large. Both Bagman and Fudge display behavior that is suspicious. Bagman in the woods during the riot & trying to cheat to help Harry win, and Fudge both in trying to remove Harry from DD's presence after the 3rd task, then leaving Harry for Fake Moody to take away, then bringing the Dementor in to kiss Crouch Jr. so no further evidence could be given.

There is also the possibility that someone was killed in the woods at the same time that Crouch stunned his son. Rita does say there was a rumor that several bodies were seen being removed from the woods. What if there were several instead of just the one? For instance, if Bagman were killed and the loyal DE, who might be a Metamorphmagus, could make themselves appear to be Bagman and work to help Harry win the tournament and keep an eye on Crouch Jr. just in case he was a loose cannon. Yes I know tons of speculation here.

I personally like each book to wrap up it's own loose ends and tend to believe that Crouch JR. = Loyal, Karkaroff = frightened Snape = left forever.

The phrase I believe could indicate that Snape has a chance to convince LV that he is still loyal and was simply behaving the way he did when LV was possessing Quirrell because he did not know LV was behind it and thought Quirrell wanted the stone for himself. He could also be trying to convince LV that his "loyalty" to DD is a lie and it is his way of getting inside information for LV. Either Snape is a double agent loyal to DD, a triple agent loyal to LV or a rogue agent loyal only to himself and positioning himself close to both leaders so he can join the victor in the end.

Well those are my thoughts so far. Sorry if this is a long post. I hope I summed up arguments I've read other places correctly. fbv807 - I am also interested in seeing what others think about The Three.

Nathan Zimmermann - May 14, 2005 4:37 pm (#477 of 800)
Edited May 14, 2005 6:06 pm

GryffEndora, that was a brilliant post indeed, those possibilities hadn't occurred to me. I think Fudge could very well be a Death Eater it would be reminiscent of the espionage that occurred in Bonn during the term of Willy Brandt

Solitaire - May 14, 2005 7:25 pm (#478 of 800)

Nathan, there used to be a post here on the forum that discussed that issue. In fact, someone pointed me to it when I first began posting here last summer. Sadly, I cannot find it. However, here is a link to an old post of mine that contains some links to Mugglenet essays debating the Fudge-as-Death Eater issue.

Solitaire

Weeny Owl - May 14, 2005 11:19 pm (#479 of 800)

I look forward to whom we speculate these three DEs are.

You need to look on the archived Snape threads. There's a ton of speculation, from Karkaroff to Snape to Crouch, Jr. to Bagman. It's really quite interesting.

Finn BV - May 15, 2005 9:48 am (#480 of 800)

Yes, Weeny Owl, I had originally made a thread, thinking it would be a good topic, separate from DEs in general (I have never delved into the threads referring to one person or a group of persons, like this one), but S.E. Jones moved it here. I guess to do it without editing she didn't change anything, so that would be what it would sound like assuming it were its own thread. I will definitely look into those threads. Thanks!

PS Fudge as a DE? I like it, but why would he keep calling him Lord Thingy, etc.? Fudge is too stupid to continuously do that; also, if Fudge is stepping down as MoM (or somehow he is not going to be MoM) in HBP, where will he go that will keep his name around? It's a nice theory but I have this speculation that we will be leaving Fudge in HBP.

pottermom34 - May 15, 2005 11:24 am (#481 of 800)

I think Crouch Jr. is the faithful one, because I think he is the one that turned the Triwizard cup into a portkey, what better way than to be in disguise at Hogwarts. I think Snape is the one believed to have left forever, for reasons I'm not sure of, and I think Karkaroff is the cowardly one, because he seemed worried when he went to talk to Snape about the dark mark.

Nathan Zimmermann - May 15, 2005 12:24 pm (#482 of 800)

fbv, even though Fudge will be removed as MoM. I think that were he a DE he may still be of use to Voldemort by keeping him informed of developments within the Wizengamot this scenario however depends on whether he has a seat on that body after his removal as MoM

Netherlandic - May 31, 2005 10:17 am (#483 of 800)

I think I can help you there (to move away from religion), Astragynia, by pointing out that the actions you mention frequently occur or used to occur in every situation in which hierarchy plays an important role. Every figure of large power gets some kind of devotion from surrounding people. People crawling for kings and pharaohs and not being allowed to look at their faces, people kissing the hand of a bishop. Also common: walking backwards out of a room, not being allowed to address someone if not spoken to, not being allowed to sit down if one is not of the highest nobility. (For instance, once upon a time in the French royal court only princes and dukes were allowed to sit down, earls had to stand for hours).

This kind of behavior has a tendency to make authority figures even more important, which then leads to people doing everything in their power to get noticed by this figures and/or they identify with these figures. Crouch Jr. indeed identifies with Voldemort, others, like Wormtail, try to get noticed for their servience.

Solitaire - Jul 5, 2005 3:46 pm (#484 of 800)

Too Cowardly ... Gone Forever ... Faithful Servant

The "who" to which each of these descriptions is referring seems to spark endless speculation and lively debate. What is more, that debate seems to spill over into several different threads, which makes it kind of difficult to follow sometimes. I would like to see it contained within one thread. With as many posters and as many different opinions as we have on the forum, it seems we could keep this thread hopping until we find out exactly whom Voldemort meant by each description.

I realize the debate has been raging for a few years. However, some of us are newer to the forum and would like a chance to get in on the discussion, especially with HBP due out in a few days. It is possible that HBP may create even more questions with regard to this puzzle.

Because I have often tended to go for the obvious, I have always thought that Karkaroff was the coward, Snape the one gone forever, and Barty Jr. the faithful servant. I see now that some posters have very different opinions for some less obvious but no less compelling reasons.

Would someone with different opinions care to start the ball rolling with reasons why they feel their candidates are more probable? I can't wait to see some new and interesting takes on the old clues.

Solitaire

Paulus Maximus - Jul 5, 2005 12:44 pm (#485 of 800)

The problem with Snape being gone forever is that he would have incredible difficulty infiltrating the Death Eaters again, and that is his job... That would probably make it difficult if he is the coward too...

I don't think that anyone disputes the idea that Crouch Jr. is Voldemort's most faithful servant, and Karkaroff's behavior has definitely been cowardly...

Perhaps we have not yet met the Death Eater who has "left Voldemort forever"...

Solitaire - Jul 5, 2005 2:02 pm (#486 of 800)

Just what we need, eh? Another Death Eater! Actually, I did have another thought about who might qualify as the cowardly DE. What about Ludo Bagman? The twins (wasn't it the twins?) think the reason he split was that the Triwizard Tourney didn't come out as he had expected. What if he left for another reason ... because his mark began to burn? Was he ever checked to see if he had a Dark Mark on his arm? Or did the Council just take his word for it that he was not a DE? Just wondering ...

Solitaire

katrira - Jul 5, 2005 2:19 pm (#487 of 800)

While doing my recent re-reading of the whole series, I found myself wondering more and more about Fudge. I came to the (probably faulty) conclusion that Karkaroff is the DE gone forever, Fudge is the coward (after all, he really likes being head honcho & really wouldn't want to kowtow to the Dark Lord again), and Snape is the Faithful Servant (at least as far as LV knows, but we know better). Feel free to rip this apart as I am generally very clueless.

haymoni - Jul 5, 2005 2:36 pm (#488 of 800)

I agree with your version, Solitaire.

I always felt it was Snape who had left forever. Voldy sees that Snape is working for Dumbledore, so he thinks Severus has left him forever.

Dumbledore asks Snape at the end of GOF to go do something very difficult. Severus has to go to Voldy and lie like a lilac rug so that Voldy will believe that Snape has been waiting for his return, like Lucius.

Harry, in OotP, says "That's your job!", inferring that it was Snape's job to find out what Voldy was thinking. And Snape agrees.

Karkaroff is the coward - first because he named names and second because he ran off.

Barty Jr. is the most loyal servant that Voldy had at the time.

Solitaire - Jul 5, 2005 2:36 pm (#489 of 800)

Katrira, I have read a couple of interesting essays on the idea of Fudge as DE (check over on Mugglenet for a great one). I do not think it is entirely out of the question. On the contrary, Fudge as DE might answer a lot of questions about a lot of things!

Solitaire

PS That's my problem with this issue ... I'm too suggestible! Everyone's interpretation sounds logical! LOL

Ms Amanda - Jul 5, 2005 2:39 pm (#490 of 800)
Edited by Jul 5, 2005 3:39 pm

Well, I believe that Snape is one of the three. And I just don't see Crouch, Jr., as being the most faithful servant. Since the faithful servant is at Hogwarts, maybe it could be Snape. Still, that leaves Voldie being pretty dense, since Quirrelmort knew that Snape was trying to save Harry with a counter jinx in PS/SS. Either way, Voldemort is a nitwit, since we know that Crouch junior did deny working for Voldemort during the trial, or at least his involvement with the torture of the Longbottoms.

Finn BV - Jul 5, 2005 3:27 pm (#491 of 800)

The faithful servant was at Hogwarts ñ in GoF. Not necessarily at any other times. I'm kind of with the boring old Karkaroff-coward, Snape-gone, Crouch, Jr.-faithful idea, but I'm up for including Fudge in there somewhere. Still, Fudge sounds just too out there for it to be true.

Solitaire, I'm afraid your thread won't last very long, as I tried to make one of the same type but it was merged with the Death Eater thread. Oh, well.

Solitaire - Jul 5, 2005 3:46 pm (#492 of 800)

Well, it was fun while it lasted!

Ponine - Jul 5, 2005 5:22 pm (#493 of 800)

One, too cowardly to return... he will pay. One, who I believe has left me forever... he will be killed, of course... and one, who remains my most faithful servant, and who has already reentered my service. (p.651)

First of all - GREAT thread, Solitaire! If I had been a bit more apt at this thread thing, I would have started it myself, as I love the topic. If I try to be deductive and analytical, I believe that JK put these words into LV's mouth for one reason alone; to have the reader speculate about whether Severus Snape is the one who left forever or the one already in service. Through Harry we are inclined to believe he is the one already in service, through Dumbledore we are led to believe that he is the one who left forever, or, alternatively, the one Voldemort is likely to believe has reentered his service. Although I have some questions about how Snape (and Dumbledore, for that matter), as skilled Legilimens failed to detect Voldemort's presence at the back of Quirrell's head, and the fact that Moody was Crouch, I have chosen to accept, for the time being, that there is simply more to the story than I have been able to figure out.

I believe that the one too cowardly to return can refer to Karkaroff as well as Bagman, and while it would make more sense initially to assume it is Karkaroff, it may be evident enough to be wrong, if that makes sense. Thus my personal favorite for this one would be Bagman.

As mentioned before, I have come to believe that the line "One, who I believe has left me forever... he will be killed, of course..." actually refers to Crouch Jr.. That LV at this point in time considers him collateral damage; he thinks that Crouch will not return to serve, as he will more than likely die on duty, as Dumbledore will bust his cover once Harry is gone.

Then, by default, practically, Severus is left as the faithful servant who has already reentered LV's service.

In my opinion, that opens a whole new can of worms. How is reentering service to be defined? I suppose it could indicate that Snape merely was inactive, rather than actively joining the opposing side.

ARGH - nothing makes sense to me!!! If Snape is not the one who reentered, how could he possibly be going back to Voldemort and gaining his trust?

...Unless....Snape is the one believed to be too cowardly to return, so that Snape and Dumbledore both know that he will walking into his own private Crucio date with LV, and that someone like Bagman or Karkaroff is actually the one who has already reentered his service...

Hmm - Convincing, heh? I hate it when I have a good theory and end up confusing myself like this...

Solitaire - Jul 5, 2005 5:31 pm (#494 of 800)
Edited Jul 5, 2005 6:56 pm

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Ponine! I thought it was a good idea, too, as it is more specific than just DEs. Alas ... earwax! Oh, well ... that's the way the Chocolate Cockroach crumbles!

Solitaire

Edit: I was just down on the House-elf thread and a thought struck me. I mentioned a few posts back about Ludo Bagman being a possible DE. I know he denied it, but so did Lucius! Question: Didn't Winky referred to Bagman as a "bad, dark wizard"? Why? We aren't told, but it sounds like she must have had some interaction with him. Is it possible that he was involved in the kidnapping of Moody and Barty Jr.'s cover-up at Hogwarts? Do we see him after Harry returns from the Graveyard? I can't remember ...

MickeyCee3948 - Jul 5, 2005 7:15 pm (#495 of 800)

NO, We do not. I have always thought that there was more to Bagman than just a politician with a gambling habit. But when I expressed that feeling several months ago the dungbombs which flew my way were enough to fertilize my lawn for several years.

Mickey

Herm-own-ninny Weezly - Jul 5, 2005 10:03 pm (#496 of 800)

I too feel there is much more to Bagman than we have been led to believe. I think there is a great possibility that he is a Death Eater, but I'm not sure if he is one of the 3 we are discussing. When I found out that he fled right after the 3rd task, I thought he had gone to the graveyard. He could have been one of the ones that Voldemort passed in silence. I just think it odd that he would run from goblins right after the 3rd task unless he had talked to them and found out that they didn't think a tie would count for the bet (that is assuming they came to watch the task). And then wouldn't it be rather difficult to run from them after just speaking; surely they would chase him...

I think the one that Voldemort thought was too cowardly was Snape. This would make it possible for him show up slightly late (when Dumbledore sends him) and apologize, though I'm sure some Crucio'ing was in store for him...

Then the one that left forever would be Karkaroff because he turned in other Death Eaters to the Ministry, a sure sign that he had left for good in Voldemort's eyes.

As far as the faithful one, I have always thought that was Crouch Jr. I am definitely open to the idea that it may be Snape, but other clues seem to point to Crouch as well. Earlier in that chapter of GoF, Voldemort is accusing Lucius of running from the Dark Mark "when a faithful Death Eater sent it into the sky last summer." I believe that faithful Death Eater (Crouch) to be the same faithful Death Eater to whom Voldemort is referring the second time.

Let me know what you think!

Solitaire - Jul 5, 2005 10:34 pm (#497 of 800)

Herm, this is one issue on which I have a hard time deciding what to think. As I said several posts back, my initial tendency was to go with the obvious three, because they make the most sense. Unfortunately, when I start picking away at things I know about others, it is not so simple. I can see a few candidates for the "unnamed DE" in the graveyard. I can also understand why various other DEs are put forth as the coward, the faithful, the one who will die, etc. Really, everyone is able to put out some evidence for his or her nominees ... and that means I have no idea!

Solitaire

Weeny Owl - Jul 5, 2005 11:44 pm (#498 of 800)
Edited Jul 6, 2005 12:48 am

I think the faithful servant was Crouch, Jr.

The other two? Hmmm...

JKR does love her twists and turns. It seems obvious, too obvious to me, that Snape is the one who left forever and Karkaroff is the coward.

Karkaroff
Don't forget... Karkaroff named names. He also denounced Voldemort in front of the entire Wizengamot. Sirius spoke of how unpopular Karkaroff was with the Death Eaters in Azkaban. Sirius also said he never heard any rumors of Snape being a Death Eater. Karkaroff actually left... physically left after the Third Task. Taking into account Barty Crouch, Jr.'s time spent in Azkaban, he would have heard what the other Death Eaters were saying about Karkaroff, and he would probably also know that Snape wasn't the topic of conversation. When discussing the Death Eaters still in Azkaban with Voldemort, mentioning that Karkaroff had named names seems to be a fairly good indication that the consensus would be that Karkaroff was disloyal, and therefore would be the one who had left forever. You can't name names and expect to be welcomed back with open arms.

Snape
It's been mentioned more than once, but nothing that happened while Voldemort was with Quirrell is anything that Snape can't explain away. In fact, everything leading up to and including the rebirthing that Snape might be in trouble for can be explained away. This is what I said on another thread:

Snape is a smart guy. By the time Voldemort's rebirthing takes place, Snape would have gone over his actions of the last eleven years and found ways to explain away anything Voldemort questions.

Why did he save Harry? He could say that it was the lingering life debt he owed to James and wanted to get it out of the way. He could say that Dumbledore gave him an order to make sure nothing happened during the Quidditch match. He could say Quirrell was mistaken and that it was actually Flitwick or another teacher.

As for Snape confronting Quirrell about his loyalties, Snape had no idea Voldemort was involved. He thought Quirrell was trying to get the stone for himself. If he had known Voldemort was the one who actually wanted it, he would have been eager to help.

Any of those explanations would probably work, and Snape, by using Occlumency, can suppress any memories so as to make what he is saying sound truthful.

Snape is still around. If he were the one to be killed, Voldemort would probably tell the other Death Eaters, and each one would scramble around madly trying to be the one to kill Snape so as to be honored. I especially can't imagine Lucius Malfoy speaking highly of Snape to Umbridge if Snape is the one who has left forever.

Snape comes and goes during the summer, as we've seen, at least at Grimmauld Place. If he's out and about it probably wouldn't be that difficult to track him down if someone was intent on killing the one who has left forever.

Voldemort never said that the one who had left forever was a traitor, was a spy for the other side, or indicated that said person was anything but someone who no longer was a team player.

Snape went somewhere that was dangerous enough for Dumbledore to be worried. I doubt if it was only to visit Lucius Malfoy or another Death Eater or two. Lockhart said in CoS that Snape said he knew a tiny little something about dueling, but Lockhart always puts people down to build himself up, so I think Snape would be a great dueler, and one most people, Death Eaters included, wouldn't want to face. I can picture Snape going to Voldemort after the hospital wing scene and being "Crucio’d" for not showing up when he was called. After a few hexes and a lecture, Snape would have groveled enough by then to be brought back into the fold.

Stop and think what your opinion would be if the book had ended with Harry touching the portkey. What would you think then? JKR writes suspense and writes it well. We already knew at that point that Snape had been a Death Eater. Voldemort said his most loyal servant was at Hogwarts. At that point in the book, I think she wanted the reader to suspect Snape. He seemed the most obvious at that time. We still thought Moody was Moody. I think she misled us deliberately so when the "Moody is really the evil Death Eater" denouement came about everyone would be surprised. That also fits in with Snape being the one who left forever... JKR doesn't always do the obvious, is tricky, and likes to surprise people, so it being Snape just seems wrong.

Ludo Bagman
I think Ludo Bagman is a Death Eater. He was in the forest at the Quidditch World Cup and ran into the trio in the forest. When they told him about the riot he said, "Damn them!" and Disapparated. I think he had been hanging around with his Death Eater buddies talking about old times. Everyone was drinking, having fun, and decided that torturing Muggles would be fun. Bagman disagreed just because he thought they should all keep a low profile or because he didn't want attention drawn to himself because of the goblins. The goblins hunted him down, took him elsewhere for a chat, and while he was gone, the other Death Eaters went back to their plan. He was angry, not because Muggle torture was going on, but because of the problems the whole thing caused.

Winky said Bagman was a bad wizard. Passing info along to a Death Eater isn't a good thing, but perhaps Winky heard more than that and is sure Bagman truly is bad.

Bagman left, but Fred and George don't know why. They have their suspicions, they have their opinions, but they don't know for sure. I think Bagman was at the rebirthing.

As for anyone else, it's possible that pretty much anyone and everyone could be a Death Eater, even people we've come to trust. Harry said he was outnumbered by over 30 to 1, and Voldemort didn't name thirty Death Eaters.

Ms Amanda - Jul 6, 2005 3:53 am (#499 of 800)

There could be an excellent reason for Snape not to show at the graveyard scene: if he is supposed to be spying on DD, it would look odd for him to disappear from Hogwarts during the tournament. Besides, there is the whole Apparition, Hogwarts grounds, thing that we keep getting reminded of. I'm sure that comes in handy for Snape to miss meetings.

Also, it seems to me that unless Voldemort is a dunderhead, he has found out how each of the Death Eaters who avoided Azkaban did so. He would know that the Malfoys claimed Imperio, Karkaroff named names, and that DD gave evidence for Snape. He would know that Crouch, Jr. wept like a baby and begged to be freed because he claimed he did nothing. He would know that Bagman claimed he did not know who was a DE. He would know that Bella Lestrange stood up and claimed Voldemort would return to power.

Sigh, if we just did not know that Bellatrix was in prison, it would seem she was the most faithful. But we know she is in Azkaban and that Voldie even mentions a reward for her. We know that Wormtail is at the ceremony and that despite his whining, he is not considered "faithful," since Voldemort told him he wanted someone whose loyalty had never wavered. Ug, sludge, sludge, sludge. It's about as clear as mud what Voldemort would consider faithful.

As for Karkaroff, he seems to be the obvious choice for coward. However, the only one we know to have seen Karkaroff being cowardly is Snape. Does that mean that Snape passes correct information to Voldemort? (If he does then he can't be the one who left forever.) Or that Karkaroff was wildly imprudent about showing the Dark Mark and being fearful about Voldie to other DEs? It seems to me that the only way a DE who had named names would talk to someone who he knew to be a DE would be if he believed that DE had completely reformed.

Goodness, what would it take for a frightened turncoat DE to believe that Snape had reformed, if my premise holds true? Would Karkaroff really take DD's word on it?

This all reminds me of a riddle I heard when I was younger about three groups, one who always lied, one who always told the truth, and one who lied half the time and told the truth half the time. Voldemort is like the group who tells the truth half of the time. I can't reconcile his actions with his words about faithfulness among the DEs, and he keeps the membership of his inner circle so secret that not everyone is named, so perhaps Karkaroff and Bagman are there, merely waiting hidden in line.

Solitaire - Jul 6, 2005 9:13 am (#500 of 800)

I believe Bagman is a DE, too ... which means Weeny agrees with me! The difference is that I believe he could be either the unnamed DE in the graveyard or the cowardly DE who fled. One way or the other, I agree that Winky's comments cannot be discounted ... nor can his behavior at the QWC. I just wish Dumbledore would question Winky, since I think it will require a Legilimens to find what she has locked away in her brain. She will not give up Crouch family secrets voluntarily.

Solitaire

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Paulus Maximus - Jul 6, 2005 9:25 am (#501 of 800)

If Bagman was a Death Eater, then it is quite likely that he knew about the plan to resurrect Voldemort. He really had no other reason to put such a large wager on Harry winning the Triwizard Tournament...

...Which means, of course, that either he DIDN'T know about the plan to resurrect Voldemort, or else he is on Voldemort's side (Death Eaters. i.e. not the coward or the deserter.)

Astragynia Winifred Posy Miranda Yseult Cawdor - Jul 6, 2005 2:53 pm (#502 of 800)
Edited Jul 6, 2005 3:55 pm

Bagman bet on Harry winning because he planned to cheat and help Harry win. Presumably, he only chose Harry because Harry was a long shot and the goblins would give him better odds.

Winky is hardly a reliable source of information; remember, all her information comes from Crouch Sr., whom she assumes to be always correct. In the pensieve-scene of Bagman's trial, it's quite clear that Crouch wants Bagman in prison; it would be completely in character for him to go home and rant and rave for weeks about how Bagman ought to be in Azkaban, how everybody who passes information to DEs is evil and ought to be in Azkaban, perhaps without ever mentioning that Bagman claimed he didn't know that it was Voldemort's side getting the info. Winky could then reasonably conclude that Bagman must be a dark wizard (because master is always right and just, of course).

I really think Crouch Jr. is the "most faithful servant." True, it seems "too obvious" now, but at the time when the line is said in the book, it's not obvious at all. Yes, Crouch Jr. did denounce Voldemort, but remember that Voldemort is Slytherin. The fact that little Barty lied so convincingly that he came close to being declared innocent, and then was successful in getting out of Azkaban (by lying to his mother and using her) so that he could be useful to Voldie once more - surely this would command more respect with You-Know-Who than Bellatrix's headstrong pride. In Slytherin philosophy, the ends always justify the means, and in this case the end is more power for Voldemort. I think it's only Bellatrix and Sirius who say that Voldie is upset with Lucius and co. because they denounced him; to Voldemort and Barty Jr., their crime was not the denouncing so much as then failing to use their freedom to go and look for their lord in Albania (or wherever). (Pettigrew doesn't count as faithful because he waited to do this until he had nowhere else to turn).

I don't think Snape is the one who has left forever. Why? Well, he's still alive, isn't he? (Vampire theories notwithstanding). I get the strong impression that if Voldemort wants somebody dead, they're dead - with the major, major exceptions of Albus Dumbledore and, of course, Harry Potter.

Solitaire - Jul 6, 2005 10:14 pm (#503 of 800)
Edited Jul 6, 2005 11:15 pm

I don't think Winky can be written off just because she was devoted to the Crouches. After all, she lived in the house and would have been privy to lots of conversations and meetings. We know for a fact that Barty Jr. met with Wormtail and Voldemort in the Crouch home. Barty Sr. probably didn't know who was coming and going at first, since he was at work all day. Once he was under the Imperius Curse, there wasn't much he could do about it even if he did know. I suspect Winky saw quite a lot.

Solitaire

Weeny Owl - Jul 7, 2005 12:00 am (#504 of 800)

I agree with that, Solitaire. After all, Dobby certainly knew what went on in the Malfoy residence.

haymoni - Jul 7, 2005 2:40 am (#505 of 800)

I think we need to look at Ludo's brother - was his name Otto?

Arthur got loads of tickets to the TOP box - not just regular seats - for cleaning up a mess with a lawn mower.

Lawn mowers can be VERY dangerous without spells.

Perhaps Otto was Muggle-baiting and Ludo needed Arthur to cover it all up.

Ludo may have given his brother information without realizing it - he doesn't appear to be the brightest bulb in the bunch.

Why bother mentioning the details of the incident? JKR could have written it as "just a favor" - All those choice tickets...it just seems odd to me.

Ponine - Jul 7, 2005 4:08 am (#506 of 800)
Edited Jul 7, 2005 5:08 am

I agree haymoni - there are supposedly 20 seats in this box, with, amongst others, the Bulgarian minister and Fudge and - Nine Weasleys & friends because of a lawn mower?!?!

Solitaire - Jul 7, 2005 6:49 am (#507 of 800)

Well ... imagine a lawnmower run amok! It could be mowing people down, right and left!

Paulus Maximus - Jul 7, 2005 10:59 am (#508 of 800)

I still find it hard to believe it to be just a coincidence that Ludo and Voldemort both placed such large bets on Harry winning the Triwizard Tournament...

haymoni - Jul 7, 2005 2:35 pm (#509 of 800)

But Ludo was already in trouble from betting at the World Cup - he really needed Harry to come through for him.

Forgive me - Mr. Crabbe & Mr. Goyle aside - Ludo just doesn't seem sly enough to be a DE.

Weeny Owl - Jul 7, 2005 7:35 pm (#510 of 800)

There are no rules that we know of for being a Death Eater. I can imagine only one main rule... usefulness. Well, that and loyalty. I just can't see that being sly would be necessary with each and every Death Eater, although it probably would with most.

Amilia Smith - Jul 7, 2005 8:00 pm (#511 of 800)

Well, you never know . . . Bagman may be pulling a Scarlet Pimpernel: pretending to be somewhat duller than he really is.

Mills.

Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 13, 2005 8:39 pm (#512 of 800)
Edited Jul 13, 2005 9:41 pm

Is it possible that the Death Eaters kept the wands of those individuals that they murdered as trophies or as another proof for Voldemort that they actually committed murders in addition to the presence of the Dark Mark?

Madam Pince - Jul 14, 2005 6:12 am (#513 of 800)

Anybody else just have a vivid mental picture of Dorothy presenting the Wizard of Oz with the burned-up broom of the Wicked Witch of the West?

I bet we're going to get some surprises this weekend in HBP with some DE identities. I don't know about Gran Longbottom (somebody mentioned this somewhere else?) but I'll bet we'll get some surprises. Possibly high Ministry officials.

The Wandless Wizard - Jul 14, 2005 3:09 pm (#514 of 800)

Don't we know all the Death Eaters? I don't have the book in front of me, but I believe Voldemort names all of them in GOF during the graveyard scene. There may be others that are helping Voldemort, but do not rise to the rank of a DE. But he names all the ones that were at the graveyard, plus the ones in jail, plus 3 who couldn't/didn't come (Karkaroff, Snape, and Crouch Jr). Unless you think he has raised new DEs, I don't see many surprises.

Madam Pince - Jul 14, 2005 3:38 pm (#515 of 800)
Edited Jul 14, 2005 4:38 pm

...He walked on. Some of the Death Eaters he passed in silence, but he paused before others and spoke to them. -- (GoF, Chapter 33, "The Death Eaters") (emphasis mine)

..."And here we have six missing Death Eaters...three dead in my service. One, too cowardly to return...he will pay. One, who I believe has left me forever...he will be killed, of course...and one, who remains my most faithful servant, and who has already reentered my service." (ibid.)

No, I don't think we know them all. He definitely skipped past some in the circle without naming names, so we don't have any idea who they are, or even how many they are. We can make speculations as to who the six missing Death Eaters are, but JKR has not confirmed that in canon yet. I think you're right that we are meant to assume that the last three are Karkaroff, Snape, and Crouch, Jr. However, that very fact is what makes me wonder if that's who she was really referring to. Could easily be a red herring.

The Wandless Wizard - Jul 14, 2005 3:49 pm (#516 of 800)

Thanks Madam Pince. That should teach me about speaking without the book in front of me. I forgot that he passed by some in silence. Those could very well be anybody. As the one mentioned were not at all surprising, Malfoy, Nott, Crabbe, and Goyle, I think it is safe to assume that the ones who weren't mentioned will be surprising. And you are right, Snape, Karkaroff, and Crouch Jr are not cannon, but I think it would be a nasty trick of a red herring if it wasn't those three.

Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 14, 2005 3:57 pm (#517 of 800)

Of those six we know two are Rosier, and Wilkes.

Madam Pince - Jul 14, 2005 4:19 pm (#518 of 800)

Thanks, Nathan. I knew we had heard a couple names of DEs that had been killed, but I couldn't recall exactly how many or who they were. I remember one of them being discussed in the Pensieve scene, I think.

Weeny Owl - Jul 14, 2005 10:25 pm (#519 of 800)

Before the duel with Voldemort began, Harry was thinking of what spells he could use, thought about Expelliarmus, decided that even if he got Voldemort's wand it wouldn't matter since he was outnumbered by at least thirty to one. Not that many Death Eaters were named if he was outnumbered by thirty to one.

Kip Carter - Aug 1, 2005 10:46 am (#520 of 800)
Edited Aug 1, 2005 11:46 am

Death Eaters - Let's Review What We Now Know!

Nathan Zimmermann suggested the following new thread to "discuss the new information on the Death Eaters. The areas examples I would like discuss in the thread are the following. First, the veiled references to the loyal servant, coward, and the Death Eater who left forever. Second, I would like to talk about the new Death Eaters Alecto, Amycus, the Carrows, Gibbon, Greyback, and Draco Malfoy, I would also like to discuss Narcissa and debate whether she is or is not a Death Eater. Fourth I would also like to discuss Snape."

septentrion - Jul 18, 2005 2:04 am (#521 of 800)

Wouldn't Snape need an entire thread for himself ?

Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 18, 2005 6:41 am (#522 of 800)

I have some questions about the Death Eaters.

First, in GoF in the now famous speech in the graveyard Voldemort mentioned the coward, the one who has left forever and the loyal servant. I wonder if HBP provided the full answer to that riddle?

Second, I would assert that Narcissa establishes that there exists some form of loose hierarchy within the Death Eaters.

If the hierarchy were sketched out I would place Severus, Lucius, Igor, and Augustus directly below Voldemort. Below those four I would place the others what does everyone think?

Third, does it seem odd that Voldemort who places such high value on purity of blood would allow Greyback an individual afflicted with lycanthropy to be a DE? Also, if Voldemort is such a skilled Legilimens how is that he allows Snape to become a Death Eater. I wonder if Severus skills as Occlumens allowed him to keep that little fact hidden from Voldemort?

azi - Jul 18, 2005 6:52 am (#523 of 800)

I feel the hierarchy must be pretty fluid to suit Voldemort's needs. It seems definite (as seen by the Lucius prophecy mess-up) that Death Eaters fall quickly in and out of Voldemort’s favour depending on how well they perform their service. Therefore, I would think that currently Snape is in the highest hierarchy, but previously Bellatrix and Lucius were in the same position. I feel Narcissa is a Death Eater, as otherwise she would not know of any of Voldemort's plans, but she is not particularly active or parry to his other ideas.

Snape said in Chapter 2, I believe, that he was the one Voldemort thought had left him forever. Therefore, I do think that speech has been cleared up. However, Karkaroff was killed wasn't he? So therefore he wasn't punished as Voldemort said he would be. Maybe Karkaroff decided he didn't want to rejoin and tried to escape, so becoming the one that left forever?

Your 3rd point. I think it is completely unsurprising for a werewolf to be allowed to be a DE. Voldemort promises to give people in the Wizarding World who are ordinarily shunned, such as werewolves and giants, power and recognition, possibly even integration. He uses the prejudice the Wizarding World has against these groups to his advantage. Which I feel is a shrewd idea. The groups which are ostracised are easy to encourage to the dark side because they have nothing to gain by fighting on the 'good side'. They are shunned from that society.

So Sirius - Jul 18, 2005 7:16 am (#524 of 800)

I still don't know what the 12 uses of Dragons blood are for nor anything about Grindlewald or how LV got his wand back after the A.K. on Harry. Many other things, but these stand out for now.

Astragynia Winifred Posy Miranda Yseult Cawdor - Jul 18, 2005 8:57 am (#525 of 800)
Edited Jul 18, 2005 9:58 am

Well, we've learned that Bellatrix is yet another skilled Occlumens - she can hide the fact that she thinks Voldie is wrong about Snape, and Snape comments to Draco that "Aunt Bellatrix" must be teaching him Occlumency. Any more of these Occlumens running around, and I'll begin to doubt the usefulness of Legilimency!

A few intriguing hints (admittedly very small ones) about possible Snape/Narcissa and Bellatrix/Voldemort relationships... Narcissa calls Snape "Severus," whereas Bellatrix calls him Snape - though if she knows "Snape" was the name of his Muggle-born father, maybe she just does it to be insulting. My flat-mate has this theory now that Draco is Snape's love child, but I think that may be taking it a bit far. And Bellatrix says "we" to refer to herself and the Dark Lord...

We also now know that the earliest DEs knew Riddle at Hogwarts - look at the names of the other boys in the Slug Club. Of course, whether they're fathers or grandfathers of the DEs we know is debatable.

Weeny Owl - Jul 18, 2005 9:49 am (#526 of 800)

One thing that surprised me was that the Death Eaters in the Department of Mysteries battle were still in Azkaban. I really expected them to break out before Christmas.

Lucius... boy is he in trouble now. I wondered why Bella was being her usual self, at least for the most part, while Narcissa was so upset at Voldemort being angry with Lucius. I didn't think Lucius had done anything worse than Bella even if he had been leading the expedition for the prophecy.

Knowing now that the diary had much more significance than it seemed to makes Voldemort's anger at Lucius make sense. He was responsible for the destruction of part of Voldemort's soul which certainly is a much worse offense than not getting the prophecy.

Draco seemed his usual cocky self at the beginning. In Borgin and Burkes he was haughty. On the train he was smug. When did this change? What made him the crying boy talking to Moaning Myrtle?

I'm not sure what will happen with Lucius and Narcissa, but I don't see a bright future for Draco, if he has a future at all.

Gina R Snape - Jul 18, 2005 10:32 am (#527 of 800)
Edited Jul 18, 2005 11:33 am

I wonder if the Dark Lord knows the truth about Snape's family history. Or any of them, for that matter. Surely Snape is right at the top of the Dark Lord's favourites at the moment. Of course, I think that was DD's whole plan, but never mind that now.

I was surprised the Dark Lord kept his Death Eaters in Azkaban. It's a bit like cutting your nose to spite your face, as they say. Would it not have been better to Crucio them a little and put them back to work than keep them locked up?

Clearly Bellatrix is raving. Her recklessness and utter lack of ability to love will be part and parcel of her downfall, I predict.

I still question whether Narcissa is an actual Death Eater or not. Surely she'd be more active if she were. I think she's seen as the DEs wife. And yes, Draco was both being groomed to step in as a DE, and he was set up. There was no way Draco could have accomplished his goal.

Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 18, 2005 12:12 pm (#528 of 800)
Edited Jul 18, 2005 1:21 pm

Astragynia Winifred Posy Miranda Yseult Cawdor, your statement about doubting the effectiveness Legilimency is quite insightful because, I think points out something about Voldemort. I think that your statement highlights one of Voldemort's key character flaws namely that Voldemort is too overconfident in his own skills that he fails to realize that there are others who skills as a Legilimens or Occlumens may be superior to his own for example, Albus Dumbledore, Bellatrix, Severus, Remus, and Sirius amongst others who possess sufficient ability to counteract attempts by Voldemort to probe their minds.

Gina, yes Bellatrix is a raving lunatic and her downfall I think will be caused by this attribute. I think that her stay in Azkaban and the torture she probably suffered at the hands of Voldemort for the loss of the prophecy merely exacerbated socio or psychopathic tendencies that exist within her character.

I think the same can be said of Fenrir Greyback also I would class him in the same class as Bella. He is the only werewolf I would class being truly rabid.

septentrion - Jul 18, 2005 12:18 pm (#529 of 800)
Edited Jul 18, 2005 1:19 pm

I've wondered it too Gina. But now, the prisoners are guarded by humans with probably extra security measures, and they won't let Voldemort make the prisoners free as the Dementors did.

I think Voldemort knew about Snape parentage. It must have been known when he was at school, the wizarding community is small after all. Didn't Jo say in an interview that LV accepted only Pure-bloods and exceptionally half-blood people but never Muggle-born within the Death Eaters ? Snape is powerful, craves for some sort of recognition, is skilled, cunning...how could LV refuse him to enter his ranks ?

I don't think Narcissa is a DE, she wasn't at LV's rebirth. And all people the Dark Lord meet aren't necessary Death Eaters.

I agree with you Nathan about LV often underestimating the other people's abilities.

Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 18, 2005 12:37 pm (#530 of 800)

Septentrion your use of the J.K Rowling quote raises a question. Why did Voldemort permit Avery, Crabbe, or Goyle to become Death Eaters? They do not seem to me to be particularly intelligent or adept wizards?

frogface - Jul 18, 2005 1:38 pm (#531 of 800)
Edited Jul 18, 2005 2:39 pm

They are pure blood and loyal though. Incredibly stupid people can have their uses Razz

Once again we saw very little of Wormtail in this book, we know that he is assisting Snape, but exactly how? What is he doing while Snape is at Hogwarts? (I doubt he's cleaning his office and making him drinks somehow).

Sorry Jessica, cross-posted with you there!

Jessalynn Quirky - Jul 18, 2005 1:38 pm (#532 of 800)

They may not be particularly clever or skilled, but they are pure-bloods who are very willing to serve him.

Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 18, 2005 1:41 pm (#533 of 800)
Edited Jul 18, 2005 2:53 pm

I finally found where I had heard the name Fenrir before, the name Fenrir comes from Norse mythology he is the son of Loki the trickster God who brings about Ragnarok. Fenrir is a huge wolf like creature.

This comes from the Encyclopedia Mythica

Fenrir (or Fenris) is a gigantic and terrible monster in the shape of a wolf. He is the eldest child of Loki and the giantess Angrboda. The gods learned of a prophecy which stated that the wolf and his family would one day be responsible for the destruction of the world... They caught the wolf and locked him in a cage. Only the god of war, Tyr, dared to feed and take care of the wolf.

When he was still a pup they had nothing to fear, but when the gods saw one day how he had grown, they decided to render him harmless. However, none of the gods had enough courage to face the gigantic wolf. Instead, they tried to trick him. They said the wolf was weak and could never break free when he was chained. Fenrir accepted the challenge and let the gods chain him. Unfortunately, he was so immensely strong that he managed to break the strongest fetters as if they were cobwebs.

After that, the gods saw only one alternative left: a magic chain. They ordered the dwarves to make something so strong that it could hold the wolf. The result was a soft, thin ribbon: Gleipnir. It was incredibly strong, despite what its size and appearance might suggest. The ribbon was fashioned of six strange elements: the footstep of a cat; the roots of a mountain; a woman's beard; the breath of fishes; the sinews of a bear; and a bird's spittle.

The gods tried to trick the wolf again, only this time Fenrir was less eager to show his strength. He saw how thin the chain was, and said that was no pride in breaking such a weak chain. Eventually, though, he agreed, thinking that otherwise his strength and courage would be doubted. Suspecting treachery however, he in turn asked the gods for a token of good will: one of them had to put a hand between his jaws. The gods were not overly eager to do this, knowing what they could expect. Finally, only Tyr agreed, and the gods chained the wolf with Gleipnir. No matter how hard Fenrir struggled, he could not break free from this thin ribbon. In revenge, he bit off Tyr's hand.

Being very pleased with themselves, the gods carried Fenrir off and chained him to a rock (called Gioll) a mile down into the earth. They put a sword between his jaws to prevent him from biting. On the day of Ragnarok, Fenrir will break his chains and join the giants in their battle against the gods. He will seek out Odin and devour him. Vidar, Odin's son, will avenge his father by killing the wolf.

The part of the God of War's hand being bitten reminds me of Dumbledore's hand. Is it possible that Dumbledore's hand was injured in a confrontation with Greyback? Albus is frequently absent during the course of HBP.

timrew - Jul 18, 2005 3:45 pm (#534 of 800)

Reminds me of a poem..........

The God of War rode out one day
Upon his favourite filly.
I'm Thor! he cried, his horse replied,
You forgot your thaddle, thilly!

Astragynia Winifred Posy Miranda Yseult Cawdor - Jul 18, 2005 3:58 pm (#535 of 800)
Edited Jul 18, 2005 4:59 pm

Funny, Timrew.

A random thought: NO WONDER Severus hated James and Sirius so much - they were pure-bloods - and didn't even care - whereas he was "only" an ashamed half-blood. (Lupin and Pettigrew were presumably seen as pure-bloods, too, for that matter).

Blast - Jul 18, 2005 6:50 pm (#536 of 800)

Lupin is a half blood as well.

Astragynia Winifred Posy Miranda Yseult Cawdor - Jul 18, 2005 8:44 pm (#537 of 800)
Edited Jul 18, 2005 9:44 pm

Oh, you're right, Blast. That'll teach me to check the Lexicon for things like that before I post (though in my defense, the information was from an interview, not the books). Thanks.

wwtMask - Jul 19, 2005 9:14 am (#538 of 800)

There is no proof that Narcissa isn't a DE. I'd wager she is because it appears that she is privy to the plans of Voldemort and the movements of the DEs. Back in GoF, Harry noted that he was outnumbered thirty to one. Out of those 30, only 9 or so DEs are mentioned by name. Thus, it is entirely plausible that she was among the unnamed.

I'm not surprised that Fenrir is a prominent DE. Voldemort's prejudice is against people of "improper" wizarding heritage. Fenrir is probably pure-blood and his condition probably makes him plenty powerful as well.

glerf - Jul 19, 2005 12:55 pm (#539 of 800)

Question about ages of DEs - we hear Lestrange's name being popped in Slughorn's memory of the Horcruxes, Lestrange is in the Slug Club with Riddle. do you guys think this is Rodolphus Lestrange, or someone else? because that would mean that the Lestranges could not have been at Hogwarts with the Marauders, like Sirius said in GF.

I think it makes more sense that the Lestranges went to Hogwarts quite a bit earlier than the Marauders. we know that LV was gaining power in the mid-70s. we also know that 16 is *very* young for a DE, meaning that the Lestranges may not have joined straight out of Hogwarts. moving right along, Nymphadora, the daughter of the middle Black sister, is around 21 in OotP, meaning that Andromeda, *should* be at least around 5 years older than the Marauders. just a random guess, I would say Narcissa is a bit older than the Marauders as well.

I also swear that I saw the name Rosier pop up in HBP as an operating DE, which would go against past information. don't have my book right now to check, but I think the name was in some long list.

Oruma - Jul 19, 2005 1:37 pm (#540 of 800)
Edited by Jul 19, 2005 2:37 pm

Narcissa, like Lucius, should probably be 5 years older than Snape and the Marauders. Is there any indication which sister (Cissy and Bella) is older?

On another note, I don't think Narcissa is a DE, and she knew of the Plan from Draco.

Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 19, 2005 1:39 pm (#541 of 800)
Edited Jul 19, 2005 2:47 pm

Glerf, I think the Lestrange mentioned Slughorn's memory may have been Rudolphus and Rabistan's father.

Oruma, Lucius Malfoy is 42 at the time of HBP so I would estimate Narcissa's age as being between 36 and 42. Also there was some speculation on the construction of the Black family tapestry in the Bellatrix Lestrange thread beginning with post 158.

Mattew Bates - Jul 19, 2005 3:25 pm (#542 of 800)

Oruma, JKR has confirmed that Bellatrix is Sirius' oldest living relative, as Dumbledore said 12GP would have gone to her if not for Sirius' will.

Weeny Owl - Jul 20, 2005 12:05 am (#543 of 800)

Tom Riddle was in school during World War II. Any of the names we recognize as Death Eaters during the previous five books would have to be their children or nieces/nephews.

The Chamber of Secrets was opened about fifty years before Harry's second year.

Voldemort said that while in school he was already starting to be called Lord Voldemort by his closets friends.

wwtMask - Jul 20, 2005 5:00 am (#544 of 800)

I'm going to disagree with most people and say that the DEs that we know by name and the people who were mentioned in Slughorn's memory are, in fact, the same people. Considering the way wizard's age, I think it is quite plausible. If that is the case, then the DEs are composed of several generations; it would also indicate that Bellatrix married a much older man. Given the pure-blood mania that the Black family had, it's actually not surprising, as such things used to occur with royalty as well. I am also convinced that, so far, Draco is the only DE of his generation. It seems that Nott, Crabbe, and Goyle have not yet been forced to make the choice of following in their fathers' footsteps.

Maollelujah - Jul 20, 2005 4:38 pm (#545 of 800)

In GOF Sirius mentions that Snape was part of a gang of Slytherins that all turned out Death Eaters, and the Lestranges are part of the gang. ("The Lestranges - they're a married couple - they're in Azkaban.") Which means Bella married a nice Slytherin boy from school. Unless the Lestrange mentioned in HBP, like Goyle and Crabbe, took awhile to pass their OWLs. Smile

Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 20, 2005 4:49 pm (#546 of 800)

So the gang that included Snape also included Bellatrix that is most interesting. I wonder what engendered her distrust of Snape. I tend to think that there may have been event that occurred prior to the incarceration Bellatrix that caused her to develop a distrust for Snape. Because, I did not completely buy her explanations to Narcissa for her distrust of Snape. It seems like there is more to it then there is as first glance.

schoff - Jul 20, 2005 6:58 pm (#547 of 800)
Edited Jul 20, 2005 8:36 pm

Nathan Zimmerman: First, in GoF in the now famous speech in the graveyard Voldemort mentioned the coward, the one who has left forever and the loyal servant. I wonder if HBP provided the full answer to that riddle?

Hmmm... Interesting question. Why is my initial impression a resounding "no"? Somehow it feels even more muddled if possible.

Weeny Owl: Knowing now that the diary had much more significance than it seemed to makes Voldemort's anger at Lucius make sense.

I've got to disagree here. It makes no sense at all to me. Wormtail must have told Voldemort about the Chamber of Secrets ordeal, which means Voldie had to have known the diary was destroyed and Malfoy was responsible. Why then did Voldie greet Lucius so warmly in the Graveyard? The anger should have been apparent then, not over a year later.

Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 20, 2005 7:06 pm (#548 of 800)

Schoff, I am inclined to agree I doubt the riddle from the Graveyard has been solved. I doubt we will have the true answer until the end.

zelmia - Jul 20, 2005 7:30 pm (#549 of 800)

Lucius, my slippery friend. It appears that Voldemort was referring to Lucius' antics at the QWC. But in fact, he was referring to the fact that Lucius had used the Diary for personal vengeance rather than hanging on to it for safekeeping the way Voldemort had instructed him.

Read that little exchange from GF between Lucius and Voldemort again. I think you'll be able to see all of the subtext clearly now.

schoff - Jul 20, 2005 7:39 pm (#550 of 800)

If your interpretation is right, zelmia, then that just seems to further emphasize my point that Voldemort should not have been so pleasant to Lucius at the Graveyard. Why did the anger over the diary debacle not show up until now?

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zelmia - Jul 20, 2005 8:01 pm (#551 of 800)

Because Harry wasn't there, so we didn't see it first hand. And I disagree that Voldemort was "pleasant" to Lucius at the graveyard. He was sizing Lucius up. He is making a determination about whether or not Lucius could still be of use while uttering this: "I am told that you have not renounced the old ways, though to the world you present a respectable face."

Voldemort recognizes how very useful Lucius' duplicity might be; and as we saw in OP, he was right about that. Because Lucius had ingratiated himself to the Minister of Magic himself, he was well known - and well regarded - enough by the Ministry to stay above suspicion. His donations to St Mungo's and other philanthropies only cemented his reputation.

And because of this, Lucius was easily able to gain access to the most secret areas of the Ministry, having considerable knowledge of its layout.

Weeny Owl - Jul 21, 2005 7:56 am (#552 of 800)

I've got to disagree here. It makes no sense at all to me. Wormtail must have told Voldemort about the Chamber of Secrets ordeal, which means Voldie had to have known the diary was destroyed and Malfoy was responsible. Why then did Voldie greet Lucius so warmly in the Graveyard? The anger should have been apparent then, not over a year later.

Wormtail might not have known quite enough to tell Voldemort anything that seemed that important until after he had his body back.

In GoF there were all sorts of stuff that might seem more important than Lucius Malfoy or the Chamber of Secrets. Scabbers might not have been hanging around with Ron enough to know all the details, and only after Voldemort had his body back, would they have the time to go over it all. Sometime after that Voldemort confronted Lucius, and I can see that he would have other things to deal with, such as killing Harry, right after his rebirth. It may have been directly after Harry portkeyed back to Hogwarts that Voldemort turned his wrath on Lucius.

Verbina - Jul 21, 2005 8:49 am (#553 of 800)

To everyone else, the diary was just that, a diary with something odd about it. Lucius only knew it would cause the opening of the chamber. Nothing more. And Lucius, while having a huge ego, is not stupid. There is no way that he would tell LV that he messed up with the diary and it got destroyed. Lucius would simply not say anything. Wormtail may not have known everything going on. How much does a person in Animagus form understand of the real world? Especially when he has been in that form for many years? Nope, I don't think Voldemort knows about the diary being destroyed...the Chamber being opened, possibly but the diary...no. He may know now but not at the time in the graveyard.

Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 21, 2005 8:56 am (#554 of 800)

Verbina, I agree I do not think that Peter was in a position to have learned the complete tale of what occurred in the Chamber. I also think to tend that Voldemort may have entrusted the guarding of the Horcruxes to the Death Eaters without telling them why the were guarding them because, I believe that several of the Death Eaters would use the knowledge of the Horcruxes to advance their personal gain.

Puck - Jul 21, 2005 9:54 am (#555 of 800)

I believe that it likely that Voldy asked Lucius to get the diary so he could quietly put it into play, and distract DD. Lucius, then had to admit what happened. He gave Lucius a chance to redeem himself, but Malfoy failed. As punishment, LV leaves him in Azkaban and recruits his teenage son. He was counting on Draco to fail.

A comment was made on another thread about Draco now "playing with the big boys". This is likely why he is suddenly not playing his old games of antagonizing, etc...

Verbina - Jul 21, 2005 9:57 am (#556 of 800)
Exactly. The DEs strike me as being like sharks. Any sign of weakness within their group and they are ready to tear them apart. Weakness on the part of Voldie would be like an open invitation to rebellion. LV lords over them with fear...no loyalty there in truth. Plus, LV is very very private about everything. If he tells anyone anything, it is not the entire plan or story. So he gave the diary to Lucius, expecting Lucius fear of LV to keep him in line. I know I wouldn't want to admit to LV the destruction of something like that!

greyeyesathene - Jul 21, 2005 12:06 pm (#557 of 800)

Oruma, I seriously doubt Draco would tell Narcissa anything about his involvement with the Death Eaters. From what he said to Borgin, Draco does not seem to be aware that Narcissa knows anything. I agree that Narcissa does not strike me as the Death Eater type. What Sirius said about the world not being divided into good people and Death Eaters could be true on so many levels for her. She doesn't seem to particularly care about LV's return, if he wants to murder Muggles and Muggle-borns, all the power to him, but don't overly involve her or her family. As to how Narcissa knew about Draco's (suicide)mission, I'm willing to bet that Voldy's keeping house with the Malfoys when the Ministry isn't looking. It would be further punishment for Lucius' failure for LV to let loose a mass of rowdy, post-revel Death Eaters on a probably drunken rampage through Malfoy Manor.

zelmia - Jul 21, 2005 9:18 pm (#558 of 800)
Edited Jul 21, 2005 10:19 pm

I'm curious as to why you would think that Draco wouldn't say anything to his mum about his mission. To this point in the story, Draco has not really shown any proclivity for secret-keeping, no pun intended. On the contrary, Draco boasts at every opportunity about his father, his family's influence, and so on. We even saw a bit of that in HBP, when Draco attempted to gain the favour of Slughorn: "Sir, I believe you knew my grandfather Abraxas..."

Personally, I believe Voldemort was actually counting on Draco telling his parents everything. What better way to punish Lucius for his multiple failures than to recruit his only child for, what will surely be, a suicide mission.

schoff - Jul 21, 2005 9:32 pm (#559 of 800)
Edited Jul 21, 2005 10:33 pm

All Wormtail needed to know was that the Chamber was opened. At the very least, living with the Weasleys would certainly gave him plenty of opportunity to know that. It's not like it wouldn't have been talked about ad nauseum over the summer. Voldemort can put two and two together.

Plus--Peter must have been very sentient even when in Animagus form. Otherwise he never would have fretted over Sirius' escape--or done so much to avoid Sirius catching him.

Puck - Jul 22, 2005 5:23 am (#560 of 800)

DD says himself in the Horcrux chapter that LV didn't know about the diary being destroyed until he forced the information out of Lucius. Therefore, I believe nothing was said by Wormtail. I mean, would you want to be the bearer of bad news? We saw how frightened Rookwood was in OotP to tell him about the limits as to who could take the prophecy, frightened of being punished for giving the bad news. Like Wormtail would be brave enough to volunteer such information!

greyeyesathene - Jul 22, 2005 8:33 pm (#561 of 800)

You make a good point, Zelmia. Yes Draco would want to gloat about the 'honor' bestowed upon him, but he isn't stupid. He has to be aware of how fiercely over protective his mum is of him(and in this case it's completely warranted)and would understand that she would not be happy at all to hear he had joined the DEs at merely sixteen. Of course, the whole point of LV making/letting Draco join was to punish his parents. So skipping right back to my theory that LV took over Malfoy Manor(after the Aurors had left, of course)my guess is that LV dropped some very plain hints to Narcissa and made it very easy to eavesdrop on the meeting Draco was branded/given his assignment. Of course LV may see Malfoy Manor as a very unsecure hideaway (even temporarily), but he could have just as easily gotten the message to Narcissa via Bella. In fact I sorta remember Bella saying something to Narcissa along the lines of, "We were told not to say anything about the plan! This is a betrayal of the Dark Lord's-", which would suggest that Narcissa was told about the plan by either LV himself or someone high up. The main point is there are plenty of ways that LV could have gotten his point across other than simply counting on the probability that Draco would blab.

zelmia - Jul 22, 2005 10:01 pm (#562 of 800)
Edited Jul 22, 2005 11:02 pm

I don't disagree, Greyeyes. I don't think Voldemort was "counting on" Draco's boasting at all. I was simply asking why anyone would think Draco "wouldn't say anything" to Narcissa when his behaviour to that point in the saga indicated otherwise. I didn't mean that as a criticism, by the way. I am genuinely curious.

Verbina - Jul 23, 2005 8:37 am (#563 of 800)

Well the age is what makes me think that. Draco is 16 years old and in all truth, not many 16 year olds go their parents about much. Some will come forward with things here and there but...Draco is at the age when he wants to prove himself to be a man and to deal with things on his own. Even though he is way over his head. Plus Narcissa comes off through comments made by Draco as a very overly protective mother...at least in his thinking. There is a very slim chance that he would tell his mother about the mission.

Anna L. Black - Jul 23, 2005 9:36 am (#564 of 800)

I had the impression that Narcissa, Draco and Bella were all told about the plan together by Voldemort himself. I might be wrong of course, but that's the way it seems to me at the moment. That's mainly because of what Bellatrix says - "We were told not to speak of the plan to anyone", not "You were told..." (although such a quote also appears later).

Verbina - Jul 23, 2005 8:14 pm (#565 of 800)

You know, it could have been something like...Bella, being a DE, would likely hear through the grape vine that something was up with Draco and would tell Narcissa thinking she would be proud. Or word could have gotten to Bella that LV was angry with Lucius and she may have told Narcissa. Narcissa could have asked for a way redeem the Malfoy name with the DEs and LV decided on this plan. I think that because, if Narcissa was willing to beg for help for Draco, she may have tried to beg for help for Lucius.

Puck - Jul 26, 2005 9:50 am (#566 of 800)

Okay, I was thinking about LV and his Death Eaters, and it seems odd that there was no real plan in place for what would happen if his body was destroyed and he needed a new one. I mean, it takes 10 years of living as "less than spirit" for LV to get a hold of Quirrell. And, instead of having Quirrell make the potion as he had Wormtail do, and tries to steal the stone, and survives on unicorn blood. Did he not know the spell to regenerate himself at this point?

It just seems to me that he would have done the research about HOW to regenerated earlier, while he was making the Horcruxes. Then he could have arranged a hiding place where his I could find him and perform the spell to bring him back. This obviously not the case, as Bella and company had no idea where to find him, and Quirrell was not asked to perform the spell. Was this just part of his over confidence?

Verbina - Jul 26, 2005 11:11 am (#567 of 800)

I would say it would be his over confidence, Puck. Voldemort underestimates people, thinking himself superior in many things.

When LV had control of Quirrell, I think the sorcerer's stone was a quick fix to the problem LV faced. Quirrell was easily controlled and scared. A DE would not be so easy plus I seriously doubt that LV would risk revealing himself to the DEs in that weakened condition. He did show himself to Wormtail later but again, Wormtail was easier to control and frighten.

I get the feeling that he had to be strong enough to do the spell to regain his soul form a Horcrux. Since he hasn't done that yet...makes one wonder what he is waiting for actually.

Madam Pince - Jul 26, 2005 4:39 pm (#568 of 800)

Why would he want to regain his soul from a Horcrux? Doesn't he want them to stay all spread out in six different places? I thought that was the whole point -- don't keep all your eggs in one basket, as it were. He didn't need a soul when he was with Quirrell, he just needed a body. He hadn't died, just his body got destroyed. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding the question.

Puck - Jul 26, 2005 5:12 pm (#569 of 800)

No Pince, I'm with you. He only needed a body, as he was existing as a fragment of soul. I just wondered why he never gave his Death Eaters instructions on how to find him and restore his body should the need arise. I mean, if he had bothered to do so he could have been back much more quickly, not waiting almost 14 years. It does make sense that perhaps he didn't want them to see him in a weakened state, or had underestimated just how fragile he would be once his body was destroyed.

Draco I feel will try to get back to the other side, if possible. He was all for LV when he thought of him as "purifying" the wizarding race, but now he sees the truth, that LV has no trouble killing pure-bloods, including the Malfoy family.

Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 26, 2005 8:37 pm (#570 of 800)

As of HBP five Death Eaters have been killed. Rosier, Wilkes, Black, Karkaroff, and Gibbon, and one Crouch Jr. was subjected to the Dementor's Kiss

As of HBP the fates of four are undetermined Nott, Greyback, Travers, and the Death Eater on the Lexicon called Big Blond.

Michael Prinsell - Jul 27, 2005 5:48 am (#571 of 800)

This is just my thought, but Voldemort didn't know everything about the Horcruxes. After all, he did ask Slughorn about them and he probably thought having 7 parts of his soul in different places made him invincible. He had no way of knowing that he would become a mean spirit with no body. That is why I think he did not have a plan ready. Either that, or he was planning on making the 6th Horcrux with Harry's death and then would make plans for the eventually that he might be killed.

Weeny Owl - Jul 27, 2005 7:18 am (#572 of 800)

It's possible Voldemort didn't have a contingency plan because when he went to Godric's Hollow that night he didn't see that there would be a problem. Why should there be one?

By that time he had already killed quite a few people, and we know that Dorcas Meadowes was an Order member he killed personally, so why would he be afraid of James and Lily much less a baby?

Dumbledore said ancient magic was something Voldemort disliked, so while making plans, he wouldn't have taken that into account. No one had ever lived after having an Avada Kedavra curse cast at them. Voldemort would have thought his plan was perfect.

Voldemort thought his plan for the Philosopher's Stone was perfect as well. He waited until he could get Dumbledore out of the castle, and all that was left was to go through all of the puzzles since he could now get past Fluffy. He probably thought he'd have the stone in no time since he knew what the puzzles were, so he wouldn't have had to plan to get another Death Eater to restore him to a body.

As he showed in the graveyard scene, he hasn't forgiven the Death Eaters for abandoning him for all those years. After the fiasco at the Department of Mysteries he is probably even less pleased. He doesn't trust them completely, not even his favorites, and I just cannot imagine him telling them too much about the Horcruxes since that might give them ideas. Ideas about his downfall or ideas about them doing something similar and trying to be a Dark Lord themselves.

septentrion - Jul 27, 2005 7:48 am (#573 of 800)

Now that I think of it, it doesn't seem probable that Voldemort would have gone for the Potters alone. I don't think he's particularly a coward but he wouldn't face two full-grown wizards who have already defied him thrice without back-up however confident in himself he may have been. Unless he acted recklessly that night.

Verbina - Jul 27, 2005 8:00 am (#574 of 800)

OotPs. Guess I misunderstood something along the way there.

I would hazard a guess that Voldemort did have a contingency plan in place when the backfire happened. But he had not figured upon how weakened he would be. I was thinking of the effect on Voldemort due to the Horcruxes and I believe that not only did it make him appear less human but it also made it so when the backfire happened, he was much weaker than he would have been had is soul been whole.

So he could have set things up with the DEs that if something had happened to him at any point (though he would have thought it a rare chance) he would return to the DEs and present himself to them for assistance. I believe this because the DEs continued to torture people...i.e. the Longbottoms, trying to find him. They knew to look for him but they did not see what they were told to look for. Not knowing that Voldemort was too weak to reveal himself to them, they moved on, thinking him truly gone.

This also leads me to think that they did not know of the Horcruxes. If they knew the Horcruxes existed, they would have known that there was no way that Voldemort was truly dead. They knew that certain items were important but not why. Some were entrusted with items, like Lucius. But Lucius became a respected member of wizarding society and so when the MoM started searching out items, Lucius decided it was time to get rid of the diary, one thing that would link him to Voldemort. He only knew that Voldemort had said that what was in the diary would bring about the opening of the CoS. What better way to get rid of the diary and yet get rid of people that annoyed him and possibly get DD removed from Hogwarts than to get the diary to the school.

Interesting to see though that the Diary was known to Lucius as being able to cause the opening of the CoS. Makes one think that Voldemort always intended to return and open it at some point.

Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 27, 2005 8:04 am (#575 of 800)

There was a question raised in the Greyback thread regarding why Voldemort allows Lucius and the others captured in the DoM to remain in Azkaban? I wonder whether this could be Voldemort's way of punishing them for their failure?

septentrion - Jul 27, 2005 10:26 am (#576 of 800)

Perhaps they're not so eager to get out and to meet their master's wrath.

TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 27, 2005 11:33 am (#577 of 800)

Slightly off topic: Weeny, I love the new avatar.

Back to topic, interesting points Nathan and sept.

Weeny Owl - Jul 27, 2005 2:18 pm (#578 of 800)

Thank you, Twinkling.

septentrion: I can certainly see that point of view, and Dumbledore did say that Lucius Malfoy might not be too eager to leave Azkaban right now.

We saw a lot of Blaise, and I think he's already a Death Eater, but I'm not sure about Crabbe, Goyle, and Nott. Crabbe, Goyle, Zabini, and Pansy knew that Draco was doing something for Voldemort, or they knew Draco had implied he was. Either they're all in league with Voldemort or they are used to Draco bragging. Heaven knows he's done enough of it.

I wanted to see what Wormtail was actually doing, or at least get some idea of what he had done during OotP. We barely saw him.

JKR had to introduce new Death Eaters because during the rebirthing scene from GoF Harry had been thinking that he was outnumbered by about 30 to 1. That means that more Death Eaters should appear in the last book, but will she make them new characters or surprise us with already-mentioned characters we never suspected?

septentrion - Jul 27, 2005 11:06 pm (#579 of 800)

I don't know if Zabini is or will be a Death Eater. The Slytherin crowd is certainly accustomed to Draco's bragging, and most of them are convinced of the superiority of the Pure-Bloods, but what happened to Draco may have some of them to get cold feet.

And I think too we'll see new DE, perhaps people already mentioned in previous books, but not so much : the series will get to its end, it wouldn't do to add too many new characters.

The Sword and the Lion - Jul 29, 2005 1:44 am (#580 of 800)

I originally posted this on the Who Knows that Voldemort is Tom Riddle Thread: feel free to sink your teeth in

Does Lord Voldemort really care about blood-status? It seems to me that his only concern in life is pursuing the road down immortality. Let's face it: Tom isn't even a half-blood wizard. His mother, Merope, was a squib. Furthermore, Tom murdered Morfin, the last pure-blooded descendant of Slytherin. Voldemort loathed his squib mother for dying in child-birth and we know that he hated his "dirt-veined" father.

I'm sure that having some of the powers that Slytherin valued is a great recruiting tool, but it seems apparent that Lord Voldemort is using his servants for his own gain. Voldemort's ranks are full of half-bloods and individuals who do not come from Slytherin's house (worm-tail, etc.).

If Slytherin were alive, what would he think of Lord Voldemort? However, the quote that Tom Riddle says in the Chamber of Secrets is disturbing: I am going to continue Salazar Slytherin's noble work -- does that mean "purifying" the wizarding-world or chasing immortality?

Kazius - Jul 29, 2005 9:49 am (#581 of 800)

Two things I take issue with in your post, for one Merope was not a Squib, that is made clear by Dumbledore. Reread the passage filling in what happened to Merope after Morfin and Marvolo were imprisoned.

Secondly, Morfin was not murdered, he was just knocked out while LV stole his ring.

About Salazar, Voldemort took more pride in his bit of magical blood (I'll give you weak, but again Merope was NOT a squib) then his Muggle blood. He's just being plain stupid about it, there's nothing else to be said.

The Sword and the Lion - Jul 29, 2005 2:35 pm (#582 of 800)
Edited Jul 29, 2005 4:24 pm

My bad --

You are right about Merope being a witch, Kazius. Marvolo referred to her as a squib. When Morfin and Marvolo were carted off to Azkaban she discovered her powers. Tom was responsible for the death of Morfin though.

Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 29, 2005 4:46 pm (#583 of 800)

In GoF Harry mentions that the was outnumbered by a margin of 30 to 1. If this ratio is taken literally. That would imply that their were at least 30 DEs in the Graveyard. Of those 30 the readers are aware of the identities of 13 of them.

Ann - Jul 31, 2005 6:31 am (#584 of 800)

And of course there were more: Snape, we now know wasn't there; and Crouch was at Hogwarts. It's mentioned that Voldemort passed several empty places without comment, so it may be there were others that didn't return right away but did when their DE friends told them what had happened. And, after all, there were probably a lot of people, including other DEs, at the final task of the Triwizard Tournament, and we all know that you can't Apparate from Hogwarts.

irish flutterby - Aug 1, 2005 6:41 am (#585 of 800)

I have a question about imprisoned/escaped Death Eaters. When placed in Azkaban, does the ministry snap their wands? It should if it would do so for more minor offenses like underage use of magic and use of magic in a Muggle inhabited area. Anyways, my question is this, If their wands get snapped, and a DE escapes from Azkaban, where do they get a new wand from? is there some Dark wand maker somewhere in the world that wouldn't turn them in when they bought a wand?

Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 1, 2005 2:15 pm (#586 of 800)

Brandi, it seems likely that their wands would have been snapped. After all Hagrid had his wand snapped after he was accused of opening the CoS in 1943.

Ludicrous Patents Office - Aug 1, 2005 3:44 pm (#587 of 800)

Maybe that is why Ollivander disappeared. LPO

irish flutterby - Aug 3, 2005 2:24 pm (#588 of 800)

Curious! because he didn't want to be approached for a wand and then killed for having seen them? I seriously doubt that Ollivander would disappear to go help the Death Eaters.

Briar Rose - Aug 5, 2005 1:15 am (#589 of 800)
Edited Aug 5, 2005 2:55 am

It isn't clear if Ollivander left his shop voluntarily. Maybe he was forced by the DE to make a new wand for Voldemort. Perhaps Voldemort wants to avoid another Priori Incantatem with Harry's wand. JM2K.

irish flutterby - Aug 5, 2005 3:21 pm (#590 of 800)

Poor Ollivander. I would imagine that his absence and return will play a role in the next book if that is the case. More than just LV would need new wands, though. All of the Death Eater in Azkaban will need something to torture people with. Hmm. What a terrible job. Although, maybe he could sabotage (sp?) them.

J Hood - Aug 5, 2005 3:37 pm (#591 of 800)

Where are Gred and Feorge when you need one of their fake wands. Wouldn't it be great a Death Eater would say use the AK and their wand turns into a rubber chicken.

irish flutterby - Aug 7, 2005 2:49 pm (#592 of 800)
Edited Aug 7, 2005 3:50 pm

Fabulous. They should invent a stink sap wand. Wave it to cast curse and it sprays you with Stink Sap. Then you could identify the DEs by their smell!

T Vrana - Aug 9, 2005 7:08 am (#593 of 800)
Edited Aug 9, 2005 8:15 am

Haven't seen this mentioned and am curious if anyone else was curious about the big, blond DE. While re-reading HBP he seems to stand out as either very inept (firing curses everywhere and never hitting anyone), or very planned. The only thing he hits is Hagrid's house, which forces Hagrid to disengage and go save Fang. It seems to me he may be there to provide cover fire to keep everyone ducking and out of the way. He never hurts anyone. Who is this guy and which side is he really on?

edit- wait, he hits Hagrid, too. Maybe he is inept and can only hit really big things...Or maybe he isn't hitting Hagrid with anything too damaging...

haymoni - Aug 9, 2005 7:10 am (#594 of 800)

I think he is Otto Bagman, Ludo's brother.

David Breeze - Aug 9, 2005 9:03 am (#595 of 800)

Do you think that some of the older ex-Slytherins are Death Eaters?

I'm thinking especially of Marcus Flint (He will be about 22 when the final book comes out), Montague and Warrington. All three graduated a few years ago. It is obvious whose side they would choose in the war.

My bet is that Marcus Flint is a Death Eater. I'm sure that Harry would just love to hex Flint if the chance arose.

Gregory Royal - Aug 19, 2005 1:08 pm (#596 of 800)

Flint never seemed particularly evil to me, really. Oh, a bad, mean jerk, but not a Death Eater.

The world isn't divided into good people and Death Eaters, as Sirius Black put it.

Oruma - Aug 21, 2005 11:09 am (#597 of 800)

has anyone called Lucius "Lose-sious" yet? for being a loser of a father? Razz

timrew - Aug 21, 2005 2:46 pm (#598 of 800)

I think Lucius has been a strict father to Draco. It's Narcissa who spoils him rotten.

Either way, he's a kid who's ended all mixed up, not unlike Dudley.

irish flutterby - Aug 21, 2005 5:59 pm (#599 of 800)

Really. How normal can a kid turn out with a dad who, along with his friends, call themselves Death Eaters, and think it's loads-o-fun to torture other people.

timrew - Aug 22, 2005 2:05 pm (#600 of 800)

Well, look how I turned out, irish flutterby.........

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 22, 2005 2:42 pm (#601 of 800)

Scourgify! Thank you Tim!

...toddles off to work on Sheild charm to protect my monitor and keyboard...

irish flutterby - Aug 22, 2005 2:51 pm (#602 of 800)

you could just buy a shield cloak from Weasleys' Wizard Wheezes and throw it over your comp. That's what I did! Works like a charm! Wink

David Breeze - Aug 23, 2005 10:44 am (#603 of 800)
Edited by Aug 23, 2005 11:45 am

I think that the big blond Death Eater was probably Yaxley. My reasoning for this was because in chapter 2 of HPB, Snape says the following:

You ask me why I did not attempt to find him when he vanished. For the same reason that Avery, Baxley, the Carrows, Greyback, Lucius. He inclined his head slightly to Narcissa. "and many others did not attempt to find him."

Now, we have already met Avery and Lucius previously in the series, and Greyback and the Carrows (who the Lexicon suspects are Alecto & Amicus) crop up at the end of HBP. That means that the only Death Eater in this list that we know nothing about is Yaxley. That is why I believe him to be 'big blond.'

Essidji - Aug 29, 2005 10:17 am (#604 of 800)

Look, I was listening to an old album from The Pink Floyd, when hearing their song "the dogs of War"; I couldn’t help but think about the Death Eaters...

The Dogs of War

Dogs of war and men of hate
With no cause, we don't discriminate
Discovery is to be disowned
Our currency is flesh and bone
Hell opened up and put on sale
Gather 'round and haggle
For hard cash, we will lie and deceive
Even our masters don't know the web we weave

One world, it's a battleground
One world, and we will smash it down
One world ... One world

Invisible transfers, long distance calls,
Hollow laughter in marble halls
Steps have been taken, a silent uproar
Has unleashed the dogs of war
You can't stop what has begun
Signed, sealed, they deliver oblivion
We all have a dark side, to say the least
And dealing in death is the nature of the beast

One world, it's a battleground
One world, and we will smash it down
One world ... One world

The dogs of war don't negotiate
The dogs of war won't capitulate,
They will take and you will give,
And you must die so that they may live
You can knock at any door,
But wherever you go, you know they've been there before
Well winners can lose and things can get strained
But whatever you change, you know the dogs remain.

One world, it's a battleground
One world, and we will smash it down
One world ... One world

What do you think?

haymoni - Aug 29, 2005 12:07 pm (#605 of 800)

I am thoroughly depressed.

dizzy lizzy - Aug 29, 2005 1:31 pm (#606 of 800)

Pretty apt description, even if it is a bit depressing .

irish flutterby - Aug 29, 2005 4:14 pm (#607 of 800)

I just love the way Pink Floyd has a way of lofting one's spirits from the pits of Hades to the outer courts of it. (sarcasm. in case you missed it).

haymoni - Aug 29, 2005 5:53 pm (#608 of 800)

Apparently it does something to "The Wizard of Oz", though!

I've never tried that - have any of the Forum members tried playing "Dark Side of the Moon" while watching Dorothy?

I really want that big blond Death Eater to be Otto Bagman. I don't know what impact that would have on the story, but I'd like one of my guesses to be correct!

Derek Robertson - Sep 2, 2005 6:27 am (#609 of 800)

Hi folks, What I was wondering is what happened to Fenrir Greyback and the unnamed "brutal-faced" Death Eater in HBP who were Petrified and Stupefied respectively by Harry in the battle in Hogwarts?

We never heard about them again even though they were absent from the sprint across the Hogwarts lawn headed by Snape. Did they escape through the Vanishing cabinet again? I doubt it, I think they both must have been captured.

Rufus Scrimgeour told Harry they knew a Death Eater was Stupefied on the tower (even though he was actually petrified) and they suspected Harry was with Dumbledore when he died because of the two brooms. How would Scrimgeour know about the Death Eater if they hadn't captured him?

P.S. The "Brutal-faced" Death Eater is not listed in the Lexicon it seems. He was never named in HBP.

DM Havox - Sep 3, 2005 3:24 pm (#610 of 800)

I have seen it once. A local theater back home played it once. They called it" Dark Side of the Rainbow" Its pretty cool.

Madam Pince - Sep 6, 2005 4:50 am (#611 of 800)

Hi Derek! I wonder the same thing as you! There was some discussion on the Fenrir Greyback thread about his possible fate, but I don't think we reached any firm conclusion. You're right, JKR just sort of "forgot" to mention them any more after they were petrified/stupefied. I don't think they got away when Snape, etc. did, because I think Harry would've noticed -- he noticed the brother and sister team's escape.

Another interesting question with regard to them is: was it actually Harry who petrified/stupefied/stunned them? I assumed it was, until some alert Forum members noticed that it wasn't very specific in the text, and upon my re-read I have to agree. It might've been Harry, or it might also have been Snape?

Derek Robertson - Sep 7, 2005 8:21 am (#612 of 800)

Hurray! Brutal-faced is now on the Death Eater list.

But I don't think he can possibly be the same as the massive blond, JKR stuck to descriptions for them as "brutal" and "blond/massive" to define these two different people. Blond was already at the bottom of the stairs when Harry ran down the tower to find everybody fighting, he couldn't have overtaken Harry without running through him. Even if he did why would JKR change the way she described him?

Weeny Owl - Sep 16, 2005 12:19 pm (#613 of 800)

In the chapter, "Will and Won't," there are newspaper articles discussing events, and one of the articles mentions the Death Eaters who were in the Department of Mysteries.

It says something about how the Death Eaters are in Azkaban for trespass and attempted theft.

Does this mean that their sentences won't be too long? It never says how long the sentences are, and while having Death Eaters in Azkaban for life would be a good thing, trespass and attempted theft don't seem to be worthy of life sentences.

Either they'll break out of prison in the seventh book or they'll have served their sentences and be released.

irish flutterby - Sep 16, 2005 1:19 pm (#614 of 800)

I think the MoM might have glossed that over a bit. They wouldn't have wanted people knowing that there were DEs in the Dept. of Mysteries going after a prophecy about "the Chosen One", would they?

Weeny Owl - Sep 16, 2005 11:05 pm (#615 of 800)

The article said the Death Eaters were possibly after a prophecy, but what I'm wondering is how long their prison sentences are. It never says, but trespass and attempted theft don't sound like crimes that merit a life sentence.

Nathan Zimmermann - Sep 17, 2005 12:51 pm (#616 of 800)

Now that Sirius has been cleared, is it possible that a new charge of murder will be issued against Bellatrix, for her part in causing the death of Sirius Black.

Madame Pomfrey - Oct 4, 2005 5:29 am (#617 of 800)

I think the brutal-faced DE on the tower was captured by the Ministry. Scrimgeour told Harry he knew Harry to be on the tower by the stunned DE and the two brooms left. "The Ministry can add two and two, Harry." My question is… Why did Dumbledore not acknowledge him like the rest of the DE? The brutal faced DE saved Dumbledore from Greyback twice, the second time he blasted him. I wonder if maybe he is really on "our" side.

T Vrana - Oct 4, 2005 5:50 am (#618 of 800)
Edited Oct 4, 2005 7:28 am

Madame Pomfrey- Interesting point.

I have also wondered if big blond was on our side. He is mentioned several times as throwing hexes everywhere, but only hits the DE who cast the Dark Mark. The way he was throwing hexes around, bouncing off everywhere, it sounded more like he was trying to keep everyone ducking, not trying to actually hit anyone.

Later he hexes Hagrid, but not with anything that really bothers Hagrid (Harry assumes from his giant skin, but perhaps not). When Hagrid doesn't back off he sets fire to his hut, but still, he really doesn't do damage to anyone but that DE who put up the Dark Mark.

I'm in the Snape is on DD's side and much of that fateful evening was planned, so I have no problem seeing Snape getting help from other DE plants who are on our side. Fudge did say a few books back (POA) that DD has several useful spies...

Nathan Zimmermann - Oct 4, 2005 6:21 am (#619 of 800)

That is an interesting point Madame Pomfrey I wonder whether Dumbledore other spies within the DEs besides Snape for example, big blond, and Regulus.

Madame Pomfrey - Oct 4, 2005 4:42 pm (#620 of 800)

I agree big blond seemed to be more of a help to us. The fire to Hagrid's hut might have been for show in front of the brother/sister DE. It certainly didn't cause harm to any human. There might be quite a few Death Eaters siding with Dumbledore being that they might have wanted out of Voldemort’s circle for a long time but were too scared knowing they would die if they tried.

Ana Cis - Oct 4, 2005 6:53 pm (#621 of 800)

I thought the Big Blond DE was the one who did the Crucio curse on Harry, where Snape had to order him to stop. That was my impression.

kingdolohov - Oct 4, 2005 7:00 pm (#622 of 800)

Am I the only one who noticed that the list of Death Eaters says the brutal faced one and the big blond might be the same person?

This seems impossible, considering Harry petrified brutal-face, and then saw the big blond sending spells everywhere.

Not really looked at logically by whoever made the list.

T Vrana - Oct 4, 2005 7:29 pm (#623 of 800)

Ana Cis- Alecto and Amycus were right there, as well. It could have been any of the three. Typical JK, any situation has at least two possibilities.

Ana Cis - Oct 4, 2005 8:17 pm (#624 of 800)
Edited by Oct 4, 2005 9:17 pm

She just loves to drive us crazy, doesn't she? There's a sadistic streak in her. I mean it in the kindest way.

haymoni - Oct 5, 2005 5:50 am (#625 of 800)

If my theory "Big Blond = Otto Bagman" theory is correct, it is possible that he is the spy.

But the whole lawnmower thing that Arthur had to clean up makes me think otherwise.

Maybe he just isn't that good.

Madame Pomfrey - Oct 5, 2005 6:52 am (#626 of 800)
Edited Oct 5, 2005 8:01 am

Well, the Bagmans do have their problems. But I agree that big blond and brutal face are two different characters. I think Brutal face was the stunned one the ministry found. I am hoping Greyback was still stunned when the ministry got there but Its hard to tell, we don't know who stunned him. What I mean is if it were Harry or Snape the spell could have been lifted once they were far from the castle. Time & distance matter in magic thingy.

kingdolohov - Oct 5, 2005 8:22 am (#627 of 800)

Since the Antonin Dolohov thread was deleted, I'm not sure of what exactly was written, but I'll try. I think many people wondered where he was from, but they expected eastern Europe, but were not sure because they hadn't heard him speak.

The only problem with that is he has spoken. He wasn't just silenced by Hermione. He started to speak "We've got him . . . !" before she silenced him. And later, he says "Now, Potter" and two spells. So he has spoken in the books.

Maybe I'm not remembering someone else correcting that on his thread.

Nathan Zimmermann - Nov 12, 2005 9:47 am (#628 of 800)

I know there has been speculation that the Death Eater known as Big Blond is in fact a member of the Order. In Order of the Phoenix Sturgis Podmore was arrested for attempting to break into the MoM and sentenced to six months in Azkaban. Does the possibility exist that while, imprisoned in Azkaban Sturgis on Dumbledore's orders infiltrated the Death Eaters.

In the chapter of OotP in which the Advanced Guard removes Harry from 4PD Sturgis Podmore was described as square-jawed wizard with thick straw-colored hair

wynnleaf - Nov 12, 2005 11:23 am (#629 of 800)

Then Harry would have recognized him, right?

Nathan Zimmermann - Nov 12, 2005 12:22 pm (#630 of 800)

Wynnleaf, yes that is true but, there is no indication whether Harry did or did not recognize any DEs.

T Vrana - Nov 12, 2005 12:24 pm (#631 of 800)

Wouldn't the other Order members recognize him?

Nathan Zimmermann - Nov 12, 2005 12:37 pm (#632 of 800)

T. Vrana, the same explanation can be given for the members of the Order. The only Order Members present were Bill, Tonks, Remus and McGonagall each may well have recognized the Death Eaters .

frogface - Nov 25, 2005 2:58 am (#633 of 800)

I don't think it would really make sense for Harry to recognize one of the Death Eaters as Sturgis Podmore and not mention it at all, or to not have it included in the narrative.

Honour - Nov 25, 2005 4:33 am (#634 of 800)

Hey there guys, in regards to the "big Blond" and whether or not he may or may not be Podmore ... Harry hasn't recognized Aberforth yet as Dumbledore's brother, initially in GOF Harry didn't even recognize Hermione at the Yule Ball, maybe with all that was going on that night Harry may have to revisit his memories (via the pensieve) to get a clearer understanding of what actually happened, and who did what?

me and my shadow 813 - Nov 25, 2005 9:25 am (#635 of 800)

More importantly than if Harry or Order members would recognize Podmore, what about the DEs? Surely the person would need a bit of Polyjuice in order to pull it off. Not a problem, though, we've got a whole vat of it in Potions... only need a hair. Who would be able to access a DE hair? Snape. Who would he give it to? DD to give to Aberforth, Moody, ...?

me and my shadow 813 - Nov 27, 2005 7:51 pm (#636 of 800)

I've been thinking about the Dark Mark/Death Eaters and wonder why Vold wouldn't make each and every one of them take an Unbreakable Vow. It would be powerful ritual at the time they receive the Mark, and it would guarantee their "devotion" or just get them out of the way if they tried to "switch sides"...

Has this already been discussed?

TwinklingBlueEyes - Nov 27, 2005 8:34 pm (#637 of 800)

Interesting idea, but I don't think is Voldemort's style. Think kids in cave. He enjoys making others suffer.

Nathan Zimmermann - Dec 2, 2005 2:42 pm (#638 of 800)

I have been wondering how was Lucius Malfoy inducted into the ranks of the Death Eaters is possible given Slughorn's reaction at the mention of Abraxas Malfoy's been one of indifference or distaste that Abraxas was one of the earliest Death Eaters.

Mrs Brisbee - Dec 19, 2005 11:49 am (#639 of 800)
Excuse me if I'm interrupting any ongoing conversation, but has anyone done a count of how many Death Eaters invaded Hogwarts vs. the number of defenders? I'm curious about the actual size of the battle.

frogface - Dec 20, 2005 2:06 pm (#640 of 800)

I'm not entirely sure. The events and consequences of what happened that night are still quite shaky in my mind, and a lot hasn't really been confirmed (the whereabouts of Trelawney and Greyback for instance) but we can make an educated guess. We know that Alecto, Amycus, Greyback, Gibbon (who died I think) and the Blond Death Eater (I think he remains unnamed) were there. That gives us 5, or 7 if you want to include Draco and Snape. I don't think I've missed anyone out, although I often get confused between Gibbon and the Blond Death Eater!

Derek Robertson - Dec 26, 2005 6:34 am (#641 of 800)

There were 6 Death Eaters versus 4 members of the OotP.

However there were also 6 members of Dumbledores Army involved as well as Snape and Draco for the Death Eaters. So you could say there were 8 invaders (if you count Snape and Draco) against 10 defenders (if you include the DA members).

8 Death Eaters: Draco Malfoy, Severus Snape, Alecto, Amycus, Gibbon, Fenrir Greyback, Big Blond and Brutal-faced. (The Lexicon theorises that the last two could be the same person, but I don't understand how this could be possible when we know Big Blond never went up the astronomy tower?)

4 Members of the Order of the Phoenix: Remus Lupin, Nymphadora Tonks, Bill Weasley and Minerva McGonagall.

6 members of the DA: Ginny Weasley, Neville Longbottom, Luna Lovegood, Ron Weasley, Hermione Granger and Harry Potter.

Mrs Brisbee - Dec 27, 2005 6:16 pm (#642 of 800)

Thanks. I'm still trying to get the whole battle sorted out in my mind: who was where, and when.

Flitwick was also apparently part of the battle at one point, but was inexplicably sent away by McGonagall to fetch Snape.

Honour - Dec 28, 2005 12:44 am (#643 of 800)

That little tidbit of information about how Minerva sent Filius to fetch Severus has always bugged me. Why would you send a duelling champion away from a fight? It would have been much easier for Minerva to have sent her Patronus? or if she didn't want it intercepted or to give away to anyone that Severus was known to the Order, then why didn't she send one of the students? OK I know I asked this very same question awhile back and someone suggested that the reason that Minerva sent Filius away was because they wanted only Order members to be present. At the time I let it go, but now, I'm thinking that that reason makes less sense too! If the School came under attack it would be the staffs' duty to help protect it and most importantly, its students. So, Minerva should have sent the students away to alert the rest of the staff, etc. etc., and Filius the duelling champion should have stayed behind to help? Just being nit-picky, please continue with your discussion ... Smile

Mrs Brisbee - Dec 28, 2005 6:14 am (#644 of 800)

That's been bugging me too, Honour. Sending a student away from the battle to fetch Snape-- especially one of the underage students-- would have made so much more sense than sending the duelling champion away. And why did he need to go all the way to the dungeons from the seventh floor, when he could have called Snape via Floo from his seventh floor office? Snape called Lupin via the Hogwarts Floo Network in PoA, why not do the same sort of thing in HBP instead of pelting down nine floors?

Derek Robertson - Dec 28, 2005 7:21 am (#645 of 800)

I don't think we can tell if the battle had started when McGonagall sent Filius for Snape. She may have been on her way to help when she sent him? I think it was only Lupin, Tonks and Bill who Ron, Neville and Ginny met in the corridor and caught up with the Death Eaters first.

Weeny Owl - Dec 28, 2005 9:23 am (#646 of 800)

It could be the time factor that mattered most.

It was rather late when all of this happened. I don't have my book handy, but didn't Hermione mention something about midnight?

Anyway, it was summer or nearly so. By the time June hits in the Northern Hemisphere, it stays lighter out later. The sun was setting as Harry and Dumbledore left, so it was probably around 8:30 or 9:00, and by the time it all started, it was probably after curfew.

If Dumbledore was thinking Snape was asleep, then perhaps McGonagall thought the same thing and sent Flitwick because he would have access to Snape's living quarters where a student wouldn't. Same thing with Flooing Snape the way he Flooed Lupin in PoA... if it's that late, Flooing someone's office probably wouldn't have worked if said someone was already in his living area. Perhaps McGonagall tried to Floo Snape and didn't get a response because he was off visiting the little boys' room.

Then there's the fact that it IS Snape, and the time a student might spend convincing him that it wasn't a joke or a misunderstanding could have been crucial. I can't imagine Snape would be any more reasonable with other students than he was with Harry in GoF when Harry was trying to get access to Dumbledore's office when Barty Crouch showed up.

There are all sorts of logical explanations why Flitwick was sent off instead of trying to get Snape's attention some other way.

Mrs Brisbee - Dec 28, 2005 6:22 pm (#647 of 800)

Harry met Trelawney a few minutes before 9 p.m. that evening, so it was definitely very late when he and Dumbledore got back.

But I'm not buying that sending Flitwick away from the battle was more logical then sending a student or a Patronusgram. The time it took Flitwick to hurtle down all those floors and find Snape-- time Flitwick himself was absent from the battle and not fighting-- could have been critical also.

Usually I'll let things slide for the sake of a good story, but Rowling keeps introducing new and improved methods of communication, but then only has a few people use them selectively! What are the point of Patronusgrams if the Order doesn't use them in emergencies? Likewise for the Hogwarts internal Floo network. Ghosts. Portraits. House Elves. Draco practically writes Rosmerta novellas on the back of a coin, but no one else is using the Protean Charm as a matter of course to instant message their buds. I don't get it.

Maybe there is a good reason, and Rowling let us know what it is in book 7.

Weeny Owl - Dec 28, 2005 9:16 pm (#648 of 800)

Since we don't know what was going on when McGonagall sent Flitwick to get Snape, we can't really say what options she had, if any.

As for other methods of communication, some might depend on knowing a person is awake or has a specific coin handy or can get a ghost at a moment's notice or be able to send a house-elf with a message, etc.

McGonagall might not even have known the kids were around. Flitwick didn't notice Hermione and Luna, after all, so maybe Flitwick was her only choice at the time. Not everyone thinks well or does the best thing during a crisis.

Honour - Dec 29, 2005 12:00 am (#649 of 800)

So why weren't the rest of the staff gathered as well? The school must have some kind of policy in place, like a fire drill? A safe assembly area, Prefects following a plan etc., staff members like the resident Giant and DADA tutor and a past duelling champion even a gifted potions master in residence, all ready to be called into action? There must have been a contingency plan surely after all, everyone knew that Voldemort and his DEs were out there, everyone knew Harry could be a target as he has been in the past on at least 3 occasions, so, what the?

Yes I know this was a crisis but Minerva was the 2nd in charge so, she should be well versed with the procedure of an emergency, otherwise she has either demonstrated that she is not quite Headmistress material or that maybe ... (well that thought is quite horrible.) Even in the real world schools have emergency plans, and fire drill practices? Maybe this was a case of when Dumbledore errs its a biggy?

Weeny Owl - Dec 29, 2005 9:30 am (#650 of 800)

Harry never noticed anything like a fire drill, at least not that we saw.

With it probably being after curfew, most of the people in the castle were probably asleep. Even with whatever safety measures were in place, no one would have thought of guarding the Room of Requirement, and after the Death Eaters were discovered, there probably wasn't enough time to do much of anything.

Since Hogwarts is magical, there probably aren't too many instances where things such as fire drills would even be needed. This seems to have been just as much of a fluke occurrence as what happened when Sirius was breaking in.

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Mrs Brisbee - Dec 29, 2005 6:41 pm (#651 of 800)

Yes I know this was a crisis but Minerva was the 2nd in charge so, she should be well versed with the procedure of an emergency, otherwise she has either demonstrated that she is not quite Headmistress material or that maybe ... (well that thought is quite horrible.) Even in the real world schools have emergency plans, and fire drill practices? Maybe this was a case of when Dumbledore errs its a biggy? --Honour

Since Hogwarts is magical, there probably aren't too many instances where things such as fire drills would even be needed. This seems to have been just as much of a fluke occurrence as what happened when Sirius was breaking in. --Weeny Owl

I think Honour has a really good point. Since there was a fluke and Sirius Black got into the school, there's a good indication right there that sometimes the school defenses can be breached (no matter how good they are) and an emergency plan in the event of a similar occurrence would be just plain common sense.

Dumbledore seemed pretty confident that Death Eaters couldn't make it into the school, but he did set a five person patrol up just in case. There just didn't seem to be much of a plan about what they should do if they did happen to run into trouble.

Some day when I have the time I'll try to map out the battle and see if it makes any better sense.

Weeny Owl - Dec 29, 2005 8:43 pm (#652 of 800)

The thing is that no matter what they might have decided to prepare for, it's always that thing out of left field that causes problems. No matter how good the defenses are, an unforeseen crack will happen. That's true in real life, so it could be just as true in JKR's world.

dallas anderson - Jan 18, 2006 4:10 pm (#653 of 800)

One thing that hasn't been mentioned in regards to Lupin is that his spy days are assuredly over.

If he is in defense of the castle, its students etc. then certainly Greyback and other DEs would have noticed?

Is it safe to say that the Order effectively lost two spies (Snape, Lupin) that night as well as the leader of the OOTP?

That was a painful night to digest for the good guys.

Matrona - Jan 18, 2006 7:44 pm (#654 of 800)

Can anyone tell me if any of the DEs were captured at the attack on Hogwarts?

Gibbon is dead, and of course Snape and Malfoy escaped, but I'm not sure about any of the others. What happened to Greyback after he was frozen?

me and my shadow 813 - Jan 18, 2006 11:14 pm (#655 of 800)

You may want to look back on this thread as it's been discussed I think. JKR didn't specify about Greyback and other DEs that were frozen, etc. I'd assume if they remained on Hogwarts grounds after that night, they either un-froze, which is bizarre since Harry needed unfreezing on Hogwarts Express by Tonks when Draco hexed him. Or they're still laying around on the floor somewhere when we return in book 7, which is also bizarre.

Is it possible one of the students helped them escape through cabinet?

MickeyCee3948 - Jan 19, 2006 9:04 am (#656 of 800)

Or one of the unfrozen DEs released them from the curse...

Mickey

me and my shadow 813 - Jan 19, 2006 5:48 pm (#657 of 800)

Mickey, it's possible. I don't have book but I recall studying that chapter and thinking the DEs were already fleeing, leaving Greyback and the one at the top of the tower behind... what did you get from the chapter?

MickeyCee3948 - Jan 19, 2006 9:33 pm (#658 of 800)

My readings of the chapter show Harry jinxing only one brutal faced DE at the top of the tower but not Greyback, someone unnamed jinxes Greyback just when he is getting ready to chomp down on Harry's neck at the bottom of the tower. Who threw the jinx, isn't disclosed. Could have even been Snape or Malfoy or any of the other Order members. And the book does not disclose who releases them either. The only other one Harry jinxes is the sister Alecto who is presumably released by her brother who falls over her.

Mickey

Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 20, 2006 2:16 pm (#659 of 800)

If it were Malfoy or Snape that prevented Greyback from harming Harry it would definitely have interesting consequences for Harry. Although, if it were Draco who prevented Harry from being harmed by Greyback I think that Snape would take the credit in order to shield Malfoy from any of Voldemort's displeasure.

Mrs Brisbee - Jan 21, 2006 6:55 am (#660 of 800)

I don't have my book handy, but hadn't Snape and Draco already disappeared around the corner when Greyback and Harry got into their tousle? If so, it can't have been either of them who jinxed Greyback.

Derek Robertson - Jan 22, 2006 5:35 pm (#661 of 800)

Yes, you're right. Snape and Malfoy had indeed turned a corner before somebody saved Harry from Greyback. The only clue as to who it was I can see is that Ginny was the first person Harry saw after he got up, and the fact the spell wasn't a non-verbal one, which surely a member of the order would have used?

So did Ginny save Harry?

me and my shadow 813 - Jan 22, 2006 7:47 pm (#662 of 800)

I'm not as concerned about who saved Harry as I am about who released those DEs from the curse and, if no one did, what happened to them? There were enough days passed that surely someone would have noticed them lying there... is this a JKR oversight or are we in for a rude awakening at the beginning of book 7?

Derek Robertson - Jan 23, 2006 4:22 am (#663 of 800)

me and my shadow, I brought this up previously (see post 256 on Questions correction to the lexicon thread) and the only conclusion I could come to was that the "Brutal-faced" Death Eater up the tower was probably captured, although few people seem to agree with me.

My thinking is that Harry used "Petrificus Totalus" on "Brutal-faced" before he could escape; he was never mentioned again or running across the lawn like all the other Death Eaters (except Greyback).

Scrimgeour mentions to Harry after Dumbledores funeral that somebody "Stupefied" a Death Eater after Dumbledore died. So how could he say this if they hadn't captured the said Death Eater? Another problem with this though is that Scrimgeour refers to the wrong spell used on "Brutal-faced", just to complicate things even more!?!?!

So basically what I'm saying is that I think Greyback and "Brutal-faced" were captured but we are not told this directly. Snape and Draco were leading the escape from Hogwarts but Greyback and "Brutal-faced" are never described unlike the rest running across the lawn to Apparate beyond the gates. Harry seemed to think the cabinet wasn't used to leave.

By the way the Lexicon thinks "Brutal-faced" and "Big/enormous Blond" may be the same person? Even though "Blond" never went up the astronomy tower according to Lupin!

[End of Rant]

Madame Pomfrey - Jan 25, 2006 11:24 am (#664 of 800)

That was my thought too, Derek. That the one Scrimgeour was talking about was Brutal face and that he was captured. I don't think Big Blond and Brutal Face are the same. I think maybe Big Blond might be on the side of good(Order member in disguise?)Wasn't Big Blond in the area when Harry was saved from Greyback?

me and my shadow 813 - Jan 25, 2006 3:38 pm (#665 of 800)

Yes Madame Pomfrey, I agree regarding blond DE. I and others (maybe you?) posted this on various threads. I went so far as to speculate that blond DE was responsible for the block/spell on the tower lifting since he cast a spell, the ceiling smashed down, and the blockage spell was gone. I thought perhaps he purposefully removed the spell...which would make him a "good guy". He could've been a Polyjuiced Moody, etc.

Madame Pomfrey - Jan 25, 2006 3:59 pm (#666 of 800)

Ooh.. I didn't think about him possibly lifting the spell, which is very possible. I just remember him firing spells left and right and not hitting anyone-Odd for a DE being sent to where Dumbledore and Order members are.

K Stahl - Jan 25, 2006 9:05 pm (#667 of 800)

Regarding the question of who releases the stunned Death Eaters, note that there is a fair amount of action revolving around the concept of non-verbal charms and hexes. It could very well be that once an accomplished wizard recovered composure from the immediate result of a hex (e.g. falling down and bashing his head against the stone floor), he could remove the spell non-verbally. Harry and company will need to create some new incapacitating spells. They can, in that way, prevail against the Death Eaters.

haymoni - Jan 26, 2006 5:26 am (#668 of 800)

I am still holding out that Big Blond is Otto Bagman.

Goodness, let ONE of my theories be right!!!

Matrona - Jan 26, 2006 7:04 am (#669 of 800)

I think Big Blond is Goyle Sr. He and Crabbe Sr. were the largest DEs in the graveyard, and Crabbe Sr. was captured at the Department of Mysteries, but Goyle wasn't there. It makes sense that he's so incompetent he can't hit any of his adversaries in a room full of people, the only one he kills is one of his own. Or, he could indeed be on the Order's side after all... I like the theory of Big Blond being a good guy in disguise.

haymoni - Jan 26, 2006 7:14 am (#670 of 800)

I would expect Crabbe Senior to be a bit slower on his feet.

I don't think Voldy would trust him with trying to infiltrate Hogwarts.

kingdolohov - Jan 26, 2006 6:56 pm (#671 of 800)

I don't think Voldy would trust him with trying to infiltrate Hogwarts.

He wasn't exactly sending the best Death Eaters to help Draco; he would have been happy if Draco died. The most effective Death Eater that night was Greyback, and he went on his own, it seems. The others all were expendable for Voldemort. The valuable ones are in prison except for Bellatrix.

haymoni - Jan 27, 2006 6:31 am (#672 of 800)

Yes, he may be down to the second team now.

I still think we would have seen more "lumbering".

If my Otto theory is correct, he may have been almost as athletic as Ludo (at one time), so even though Big Blond is big, he may still be able to move pretty quickly.

Mrs Brisbee - Feb 2, 2006 5:46 am (#673 of 800)

I think there had to be more then the eight Death Eaters we have counted in the battle.

When Harry runs down the Tower stairs, Snape and Draco disappear around the corner. Harry gets Fenrir with Petrificus Totalus, then he fells Amycus. Tonks is battling the Big Blond. Gibbon is dead, and Brutal Face is still up on the Tower. So the only named Death Eater who is unaccounted for is Alecto, but Harry sees Lupin, McGonagall, and Ron each battling a separate Death Eater. So we need to add two extra mystery Death Eaters to the total.

tamerlane - Feb 17, 2006 6:56 am (#674 of 800)

I think that Tonks is a Death Eater or helping in some manner. Draco said that he was getting help with his problem. He told Dumbledore that Rosmerta was under the imperious curse. He never said who put her under it. Not him. he never left school. They never explained fully why Tonks was by the room of requirement the day Harry saw her. DD office is no where around there and the 7th floor is not on the way anywhere. How did Rosmerta get the enchanted device that Draco talks to her with? The book leads you to believe that Tonks' change is due to her love of Remus. Which she might. But I think she had a lot more to do with this than the book revealed. We know nothing of Tonks other than she was Sirius' second cousin. The daughter of his favorite cousin. She is an Auror. Just a thought

haymoni - Feb 17, 2006 7:10 am (#675 of 800)

Oh, I really don't want to believe that. Our beloved Tonks - in cahoots with the Death Eaters??? I don't like it. I just don't like it.

I don't see why Draco couldn't go to Hogsmeade & visit Rosmerta. Just because we didn't see it in the book doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Mrs Brisbee - Feb 17, 2006 7:21 am (#676 of 800)

How did Rosmerta get the enchanted device that Draco talks to her with? --tamerlane

Good question. How did Draco even know about the enchanted coins? Umbridge and the MoM seem to have bought the story that they had busted up the first meeting, and that it had been organized by Dumbledore. But then Draco knows that the coins were made by Hermione. How? Marietta is the only one with spots. Did she fill in Umbridge later, despite the memory modification? It seems to me that only a DA member could have given Draco some of those details.

haymoni - Feb 17, 2006 7:36 am (#677 of 800)

Now THAT is an excellent question - how did Draco know about Hermione's coins???

It is possible that when Marietta first told Umbridge about the DA that she told her EVERYTHING. How the group knew when to meet would be especially interesting to Dolores. She may have told the I-Squad about the coins - or maybe Marietta even showed them the coin and how it was warm.

Funny how Draco isn't above taking an idea from a Mudblood like Hermione.

Weeny Owl - Feb 17, 2006 10:08 am (#678 of 800)

I suspected that Blaise Zabini was involved in the whole Imperius Curse thing with Madam Rosmerta and Katie. I don't believe it was coincidence that he was mentioned as being in The Three Broomsticks right before the trio left and encountered Katie and the necklace.

I don't think Tonks is a Death Eater at all.

haymoni - Feb 17, 2006 10:37 am (#679 of 800)

I agree, Weeny Owl.

And I had such high hopes for the boy!!!

tamerlane - Feb 17, 2006 12:11 pm (#680 of 800)

I believe that JKR adds info into the story which is not fully realized until later books. Like the hand of Glory. In COS Draco and his father speak about the object but it was not purchased. I Believe that she placed Tonks in that hallway for a reason. There is not other purpose for her to be there. It might be a "Red Herring" but I don't think so. At the end of book seven JKR cannot just say that Tonks is a Death Eater.

There were many hints in the first book that Quirrell was the villain and not Snape. They were cleverly masked to make the reader believe that it was Snape. But at the end you can look back and see them.

Similarly I also believe that the archway in the ministry will play a very large role in the final outcome. She gave us enough info to know what it is and how it works that it will not be a surprise when it is used. It is in the "Death Chamber." No one asks why is there a Death chamber with viewing stands.

haymoni - Feb 17, 2006 12:46 pm (#681 of 800)

JKR said that it was in the Department of Mysteries because it was used to STUDY death - that it was not a device used to kill people.

I think Tonks was there as Harry's personal bodyguard. She goes looking for him when he doesn't come off the train. She's right there in Hogsmeade when he strangles Dung. I think she was specifically assigned to Harry - and being young, it might not look too weird if she was seen following him around.

But I've been wrong before!!!!

Caius Iulius - Feb 17, 2006 3:33 pm (#682 of 800)

Wouldn't Lupin - eventually - notice his lady being Imperio’d?

Choices - Feb 17, 2006 6:05 pm (#683 of 800)

haymoni - "JKR said that it was in the Department of Mysteries because it was used to STUDY death - that it was not a device used to kill people."

Surely JKR realizes that in order to study death, someone has to die. A bunch of people sitting on the risers, staring at the arch and veil, will not learn much about death unless someone actually goes through the veil and dies. OK, we need a volunteer from the audience.....anyone???

haymoni - Feb 17, 2006 7:29 pm (#684 of 800)

Maybe they just listen to the whispers.

Solitaire - Feb 18, 2006 10:43 am (#685 of 800)

Perhaps the chamber allows someone to communicate with the whisperers???

I agree with Haymoni and Weeny ... Tonks isn't a DE!! No, no, no!!! I think it is Blaise. He is possessed of an arrogance very similar to Draco, if you ask me.

Solitaire

Weeny Owl - Feb 18, 2006 2:22 pm (#686 of 800)

I can't picture Tonks as a Death Eater for a few reasons.

She speaks too fondly of her father in OotP, and he's the Muggle-born. She has a familiarity with Mad-Eye in OotP that seems natural and not forced. She's nice to Hermione. She nice to the entire Weasley family, known to be blood traitors.

In the hospital wing she was just too adamant about Lupin's stubbornness regarding their relationship. That wasn't an act. She truly cares about him, and even her Patronus changed.

She was actually fighting the Death Eaters in the Department of Mysteries. She couldn't have faked that.

I do think there are people we think are good guys who are really Death Eaters, and vice versa, though. I'm not sure who might be good but is pretending to be bad or who is bad but pretending to be good, but there have to be others.

me and my shadow 813 - Feb 21, 2006 7:20 pm (#687 of 800)

I think it was this thread where we discussed what happened to those Petrified DEs scattered about the school... I just finished rereading and never noticed this line from Scrimgeour after the funeral to Harry:

Somebody Stupefied a Death Eater on top of the Tower after Dumbledore died. There were also two broomsticks up there. The Ministry can add two and two, Harry.

I don't know why, but I never thought the MoM came in that night and took the DEs away. But it sounds like that may have occurred. The MoM could have Fenrir and "Brutal-faced" DE in custody.

This may belong on another thread, but it seems Petrificus Totalus is being called "Stupefying" here. This also seems to be called a Freezing Charm, as in Harry thinking he was frozen on top of the Tower. Then, as he later recalls it, Harry says he "knows" DD is dead because a Full Body-Bind cannot be released unless the spell caster releases it or dies. Are these three different spells? Did Scrimgeour use the wrong term? If so, then is "Full Body-Bind" the same as "Freezing" and is the incantation Petrificus Totalus?

Derek Robertson - Feb 22, 2006 8:03 am (#688 of 800)

You're right me and my shadow813, this has been discussed already, see post 609 & 663 earlier in the thread.

missme - Feb 26, 2006 9:00 pm (#689 of 800)

I know this is really changing the topic, but when Harry discovers Malfoy and Snape talking outside Slughorn's party, Snape realizes Malfoy has been taught Legilimency by his aunt Bellatrix. Then Snape says "What have you to hide from your master?" (meaning LV) So does that mean that Bellatrix is hiding something from LV? Is Snape hiding more from LV?

Caius Iulius - Feb 27, 2006 12:42 pm (#690 of 800)

Could "master" not refer to Snape himself? He is Head of House after all, and has been an ally of Malfoy for years.

Steve Newton - Feb 27, 2006 12:43 pm (#691 of 800)

That's what I thought. We have to be careful when JKR is being ambiguous.

haymoni - Feb 27, 2006 12:55 pm (#692 of 800)

When I read it, I thought "master" was Voldy.

Narcissa implied that Voldy trusted Snape "so". It seemed to me that Snape was suggesting to Draco that if he was willing to hide his thoughts from Snape it was the same as hiding things from Voldy.

Choices - Feb 27, 2006 1:48 pm (#693 of 800)

I'm with you Haymoni - I think master refers to Voldemort. It just sounds too presumptuous and unlike Snape to refer to himself as Draco's master.

Caius Iulius - Feb 28, 2006 4:18 am (#694 of 800)

I wouldn't put it past Snape to call himself "master" though.

tamerlane - Mar 2, 2006 12:12 pm (#695 of 800)

Malfoy learned Occlumency not Legilimency from Bellatrix. I think Snape was referring to himself as his master. That is why Malfoy said he is not trying to hide anything from " Him". Saying that he has a new master.

kingdolohov - Mar 11, 2006 12:38 pm (#696 of 800)

Recently I have been appreciating how talented the "bad guys" are in the books. In almost every movie I see, the bad side is really incompetent and it seems too easy for the good guys to win. But in these books, the dark side is actually a formidable opponent, often getting the best of the good guys. Not that I want the Death Eaters defeat the Order, but I appreciate that it's not easy for the Order to win. Even though we know that in the end the Order will win, at least the talent of the other side keeps it very interesting.

Solitaire - Mar 11, 2006 6:57 pm (#697 of 800)
Even though we know that in the end the Order will win

Do we know ... for certain? At the rate the good guys are dying, there may not be an Order left in the end, even if Voldemort is vanquished ... and I can't believe he won't be.

Solitaire

kingdolohov - Mar 11, 2006 8:28 pm (#698 of 800)

By winning, I mean defeating Voldemort, since that's the only reason the Order exists. And the fact that members will die is exactly what I appreciate. Plus, not everyone in the Order is going to die. There are a lot of people in the Order, not just the ones we've seen fight.

bigearl - Mar 16, 2006 1:52 pm (#699 of 800)

I saw a quote from JKR basically saying, that there are children of Death Eaters at Hogwarts who are not in Slytherin.

Who could they be? Will they turn on Harry? Will they turn on their parents? Will any Slytherins ever help Harry?

Derek Robertson - Mar 24, 2006 7:04 am (#700 of 800)

Hey bigearl could you point me in the direction of a quote for this?

Cheers.

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Potteraholic Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:08 pm

bigearl - Mar 24, 2006 9:22 am (#701 of 800)

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I saw it in the Death Eater Section.

Nathan Zimmermann - Mar 24, 2006 9:26 am (#702 of 800)

The Death Eater children are a small fraction of the total Slytherin population. In fact, some Death Eater children belong to other houses.. The quote is found in part three of The Leaky Cauldron and Mugglenet interview.

The quote actually makes me wonder whether Cormac McLaggen's parents are Death Eaters?

Solitaire - Mar 25, 2006 6:40 pm (#703 of 800)

Interesting speculation, Nathan. If they are DEs, I wonder if Slug knows. Remember the comment Blaise made on the train about how Slug and Mr. Nott had been old friends ... yet he looked unhappy when he heard Mr. Nott had been caught at the Ministry ... and Theodore hadn't been invited to join the Slug Club on the train.

Of course, I realize that could also be interpreted in a different light: Slug doesn't want to be seen with known DEs or their kids, because it might put him under suspicion. Hard to tell these days, isn't it?

Solitaire

Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 25, 2006 12:37 pm (#704 of 800)

I have I have been thinking about the deaths and disappearances attributed to the Death Eaters during, the course of HBP. While, many of them are understandable. I cannot seem to see any reason for the targeting of Hannah Abbott's mother and Octavious Pepper?

Finn BV - Jul 25, 2006 6:26 pm (#705 of 800)

That's a really interesting point Nathan. Considering we don't Octavius Pepper at all, there may be some story behind him, but Hannah Abbott's mom stumps me. Perhaps she was concealing information or something? She may hold a respectable position in the wizarding world.

Anna L. Black - Jul 27, 2006 3:04 am (#706 of 800)

I think it was to show us that nobody is safe anymore - you don't necessarily have to be important (as far as we know) in order to be a target. It just gives you the general feeling of fear, and of death closing in on the Wizarding population.

Soul Search - Jul 27, 2006 9:52 am (#707 of 800)

On various topics we have hinted that some Death Eaters may not be fully in Voldemort's camp. They were quite content before Voldemort returned and are, now, Death Eaters only by fear. They may, when the time is right, fail to support Voldemort or even actively seek his defeat.

I was perusing PoA and this caught my eye (Fudge, with Harry overhearing, in the Three Broomsticks):

"Not many people are aware that the Potters knew You-Know-Who was after them. Dumbledore, who was of course working tirelessly against You-Know-Who, had a number of useful spies. One of them tipped him off, and he alerted James and Lily at once."

The plural "spies" is interesting. We know Snape was one. I haven't been able to come up with any direct canon to identify another. But there are a few hints that suggest Avery.

Avery is first mentioned in GoF, by Sirius, cave scene:

"Snape knew more curses when he arrived at school than half the kids in seventh year, and he was part of a gang of Slytherins who all turned out to be Death Eaters. ... Avery -- from what I've heard he wormed his way out of trouble by saying he'd been acting under the Imperius Curse -- he's still at large."

This seems like more information about Avery than we really needed to know ... unless Avery is more than just another Death Eater.

Our next view of Avery is in the GoF graveyard scene. Avery breaks the Death Eater circle and collapses at Voldemort's feet, pleading for forgiveness. Voldemort gives him the Crucio curse.

We next see Avery in OotP (Harry seeing through Voldemort's eyes.) Again, Voldemort gives him the Crucio curse. Apparently, Avery told Voldemort that Bode could retrieve the prophecy. Bode could never have, causing Voldemort to waste a lot of time on a vain pursuit.

This sounds to me like Avery deliberately gave Voldemort wrong information so Voldemort would waste effort and not be able to hear the prophecy (which was one of the Order's objectives.) Seems like the action of one of Dumbledore's spies.

So, Avery knew Snape (our known spy) at Hogwarts, got off with the Ministry (perhaps with a little help from Dumbledore, just like Snape,) isn't one of Voldemort's favorites, and misdirected Voldemort in his pursuit of the prophecy. This adds up to Avery being one of Dumbledore's spies and not a true supporter of Voldemort.

So we add Avery to the list of Death Eaters that are, or perhaps will, not support Voldemort when he needs them most.

Who are others? How will this help Harry?

Solitaire - Jul 27, 2006 9:58 am (#708 of 800)

Wasn't Goyle missing in action (MIA) in the battle at the DoM?

Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 27, 2006 10:18 am (#709 of 800)
Edited Jul 27, 2006 11:20 am

Solitaire, Goyle and Wormtail were missing from the raid on the Department of Mysteries.

Madame Pomfrey - Jul 27, 2006 1:24 pm (#710 of 800)

Also, Wormtail (Scabbers) bit Goyle Jr. I have always wondered if that meant anything.

Solitaire - Jul 27, 2006 3:28 pm (#711 of 800)

We've at least seen Wormtail at Spinner's End. We haven't seen Goyle, Sr., in a while, have we?

LOL Madame Pomfrey! Perhaps Goyle did something to Wormtail many years ago, when Wormtail was spying on the Potters. Could Goyle have been in the area when Wormtail blew up the street and killed all those Muggles? Maybe he was the one who severed Wormtail's finger, and Wormtail was attempting to return the favor. hehe Just kidding ...

Solitaire

Madame Pomfrey - Jul 27, 2006 8:19 pm (#712 of 800)

LoL, Soli. While we're on the finger... It was given to Wormtail’s mother. I wonder if she knows he is really alive. She was also given a Merlin first class. Hmm... if Snape ever gets one I wonder if it will be given post mortem.

Solitaire - Jul 27, 2006 8:44 pm (#713 of 800)

Good points, Madame P. I wonder if Wormtail was exposed in the Daily Prophet. We must check with Rita ...

Hard to say about Snape. If Dumbledore was telling the truth, he was very disappointed at losing one in PoA (I think that was the book).

Solitaire

journeymom - Jul 27, 2006 9:57 pm (#714 of 800)

Yes, Snape had a huge hissy fit in the hospital wing. I will never forgive Cuaron or Steve Kloves or whomever for not including that scene in the movie.

Madame Pomfrey - Jul 28, 2006 6:18 am (#715 of 800)

I agree Journeymom. Even Fudge seemed to worry about Snape cracking up in much the same way he has accused Harry.

rambkowalczyk - Aug 5, 2006 1:27 pm (#716 of 800)

Good Analysis on Avery. I didn't notice that there were spies and there could be more than one.

Soul Search - Aug 5, 2006 6:21 pm (#717 of 800)

Thanks, rambkowalczyk. Not sure it can be taken any further, though. I haven't been able to discover even the faintest hints.

Madame Pomfrey - Aug 6, 2006 8:13 am (#718 of 800)

Do we have a description on Avery? Could he be the Big Blond?

Solitaire - Aug 6, 2006 12:59 pm (#719 of 800)

Hasn't Harry seen Avery in some of those visions (or dreams) he was picking up from the big Voldemort satellite in GoF and OotP? Also, I think Avery was in that circle of boys with Riddle, just before he asked Slughorn about the Horcruxes. If so, wouldn't Harry have recognized him? Just asking ...

Solitaire

azi - Aug 6, 2006 1:03 pm (#720 of 800)
Edited Aug 6, 2006 2:03 pm

Soli, the Lexicon thinks that there are two Avery's - father and son. So the younger Avery is the one that seems to be pretty stupid, while the father was the one Harry saw.

I looked on the Lexicon for descriptions of Avery. There aren't any, but wasn't he one of the captured Death Eaters from the Ministry? So he'd be in Azkaban at the moment...therefore he can't be the 'big blond'.

Solitaire - Aug 6, 2006 1:06 pm (#721 of 800)

I do not remember where we are told that Avery attended Hogwarts with Snape's generation. Can someone point me to the book? Thanks.

Solitaire

Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 6, 2006 1:11 pm (#722 of 800)
Edited Aug 6, 2006 2:20 pm

Avery's father was mentioned in Half-Blood Prince chapter 20 when Tom Riddle came to ask Dumbledore about the vacant Defense Against the Dark Arts position ten years after he graduated. Avery, Nott, and Rosier were mentioned as awaiting Voldemort in Hogsmeade.

The knowledge that Avery's son attended Hogwarts with Snape and the Marauders came from Sirius in Goblet of Fire chapter twenty-seven.

azi - Aug 6, 2006 1:18 pm (#723 of 800)
Edited Aug 6, 2006 2:19 pm

The younger Avery is in Chapter 27 of GoF, pages 460-461 UK edition.

(Sirius on Snape) '...he was part of a gang that nearly all turned out to be Death Eaters...Rosier and Wilkes - they were both killed by Aurors the year before Voldemort fell. The Lestranges - they're a married couple - they're in Azkaban. Avery - from what I've heard he wormed his way out of trouble by saying he's been acting under the Imperius curse - he's still at large.'

Hope that helps.

Solitaire - Aug 6, 2006 1:31 pm (#724 of 800)

Thanks, Azi ... but I still am a bit unsure. There was also a Lestrange in that group of boys with Riddle and Avery, yet we do not see him mentioned separately in the Lexicon. Both Lestrange men listed are mentioned as contemporaries of Snape. I am going to have to reread GoF and OotP more carefully, I can see that.

Solitaire

Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 6, 2006 2:53 pm (#725 of 800)

Solitaire, I have been curious about that omission. I have often wonder whether that Lestrange was the father of Rodolphus and Rabastan Lestrange.

Solitaire - Aug 6, 2006 5:17 pm (#726 of 800)

We obviously need more info on the earlier generations of some of our Wizarding families.

Solitaire

haymoni - Aug 7, 2006 4:46 am (#727 of 800)

I always thought there were 2 generations - those that went to school with Tom Riddle and those that went to school with Snape.

Soul Search - Aug 7, 2006 5:43 am (#728 of 800)

And now we have a third generation, sort of, with Draco. I always thought it strange that three Death Eaters, Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle, would all have sons the same age so that Crabbe and Goyle would be available to "guard" Draco.

Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 8, 2006 7:26 pm (#729 of 800)
Edited Aug 8, 2006 8:27 pm

The same question cane be raised concerning Rosier because, there is Rosier among Voldemort's earliest followers and an Evan Rosier who attended school with Severus Snape.

darien - Aug 9, 2006 12:40 am (#730 of 800)

It starting to seem that Death Eaterness is not so popular and continues because of Family Membership more that something else...this is good.

Anna L. Black - Sep 9, 2006 8:32 am (#731 of 800)

Soul Search - Nott is in their year, as well, so it's already 4 Death Eaters that have sons of the same age. Not only that, but it seems that all of the other Death Eaters don't have kids at all (or, at least, they are a lot older/younger than Malfoy & company, so they're not at Hogwarts, and Harry doesn't know them...). Of course, it could be that JKR just didn't bother to mention them, but still, it's strange - none of the other Slytherins (or other students) is a child of a known (to Harry and to us) DE.

Derek Robertson - Sep 14, 2006 7:38 am (#732 of 800)

Just wondering how many Death Eaters (that we know of) are still at large?

According to the lexicons Death Eater page there are at least 9: excluding Snape just in case he's a goody Smile

, but not including Brutal/Blond incase they're the same person, or Yaxley in case he's blond/brutal, or the Carrows in case they are Amycus and Alecto, or Draco incase he's not yet a DE)

At most 16: including Draco, the Carrows in case they are not Alecto and Amycus, blond and brutal and Yaxley in case they are all separate, Greyback and Brutal assuming they did get away)

get all that!?!

This obviously affects how strong Voldemort's horde will be in any open battles against the Order or Ministry in the final book, we have no idea how many giants he has or what number the Dementors have bred to.

Laura W - Sep 14, 2006 11:46 pm (#733 of 800)

... or how many werewolves have joined his side, Derek.

me and my shadow 813 - Jan 30, 2009 6:46 pm (#734 of 800)

I've been listening to GoF and there is a fleeting mention of Mulciber being exceptionally good at the Imperius Curse. Now we know he was *in a way* the catalyst for Lily and Severus's argument in The Prince's Tale, I wondered if Mulciber had been trying out this Curse on Mary. I'm going to research and see if JKR tells us who "invented" the Imperius, but, any thoughts?

Solitaire - Jan 31, 2009 10:10 am (#735 of 800)

As Imperius is one of the Unforgivables, I get the idea that it has been around for longer than the first Voldy war. When people claimed to be under the Imperius Curse following the disappearance of Voldemort, everyone seemed to be familiar with it and understand what it did. If it had been invented by a student just a few years before, I don't think it would have been that well known and recognized among Ministry workers just yet. The fact that we learn Snape has invented spells is, I think, supposed to illustrate Snape's giftedness as a Wizard. JM2K, of course ...

Of course, even if Mulciber didn't invent the Imperius Curse, that doesn't mean he didn't try it out on Mary. Or perhaps he used Crucio! on her. That one is painful. Or maybe he used Levicorpus! on her. That would have been rather embarrassing to a girl. Come to think of it, that makes me wonder ... why wasn't Snape wearing trousers under his robes when he was hoisted in the air? If he had been, no one would have seen his grey bloomers.

Orion - Jan 31, 2009 10:17 am (#736 of 800)

It sounded more as if he had given her antlers, IMO. Or turned her into a gigantic slug-like creature, which I personally find quite vile. If he Imperiused her he must have made her do something really ridiculous and shameful.

me and my shadow 813 - Jan 31, 2009 1:52 pm (#737 of 800)

Come to think of it, that makes me wonder ... why wasn't Snape wearing trousers under his robes when he was hoisted in the air?

I recall noticing --in scenes where the kids are getting ready for bed, etc.-- that robes are their clothes and there are no "bottoms". I could be wrong...

I agree, though... Right after I wrote it I figured the Unforgivables have probably been around much longer than Mulciber. I agree with Orion, I could definitely see Lily being outraged that Mulciber Imperiused Mary and made her do something either ridiculous or "not nice".

Solitaire - Jan 31, 2009 2:40 pm (#738 of 800)

robes are their clothes and there are no "bottoms"

That must be chilly in that drafty old castle!

tandaradei - Jan 31, 2009 3:29 pm (#739 of 800)

...[cut]..."I'm not putting them [trousers] on!" said old Archie in indignation. "I like a healthy breeze around my privates, thanks!"...[cut]...

GoF,Ch7,"Bagman and Crouch," p.84 US pap. italics added

I've italicized the word 'indignation'. I thought Jo's choice of this word here made it understood that wizards/witches wore their robes in the same style that Scots wear kilts, if you get my drift (hehe, pun intended).

Julia H. - Jan 31, 2009 3:53 pm (#740 of 800)

That must be chilly in that drafty old castle!

But it was a warm June day and Hogwarts robes are black. On a summer day, you can get very hot wearing long black clothes so you may not want to wear multiple layers of clothes. Besides, OWL exams are important school events, where students may be expected to wear their school robes.

I can imagine Mulciber trying the Imperius Curse on Mary and trying to make her do something "ridiculous" (a la "Mario and the Magician"). Perhaps Mary managed to resist eventually (it is possible to resist the Imperius Curse) or someone (Lily?) may have arrived on time to stop Mulciber.

Solitaire - Jan 31, 2009 3:56 pm (#741 of 800)

Actually, it sounds to me as though old Archie was probably an anomaly. Even if he weren't, I would think the younger generations of Wizards--those in the Marauders' generation and younger--would probably wear normal Muggle clothing under their robes.

Julia H. - Jan 31, 2009 3:58 pm (#742 of 800)

Why would Muggle clothing be "normal" to them?

Solitaire - Jan 31, 2009 3:59 pm (#743 of 800)

When we meet Bill and Charlie Weasley, they are wearing what seems to be normal Muggle clothing, as are the other Weasley kids. I rather doubt they do this just for Harry's benefit. Mr. and Mrs. Weasley wear older, rather tattered robes, apparently ... but the kids seem to wear jeans, sweaters, etc. Mrs. Weasley knits enough sweaters for the kids, and I would imagine that, if they are wearing sweaters under their robes, they are just as likely to wear trousers of some sort.

Julia H. - Jan 31, 2009 4:04 pm (#744 of 800)

Yes, but this is school and an exam. Perhaps they are expected to wear robes during their OWLs and it can be just too hot to wear Muggle clothes as well. (Apparently, Snape does not get cold easily.) And Snape is a generation older than Bill and Charlie. Fashion probably changes in the wizarding world as well. (BTW, Snape seems to be similarly dressed in PS, when Harry sees his wound.)

Solitaire - Jan 31, 2009 4:13 pm (#745 of 800)

Apparently, Snape does not get cold easily.

True ... it's his slippery, Slytherin-y, snaky nature, I guess.

Julia H. - Jan 31, 2009 4:26 pm (#746 of 800)

Or just the fact that he grew up in the cold Slytherin basement of Hogwarts and that he came from a poor family where he may have had to get used to surviving with little heating. Poor families very often try to save money on heating.

Anyway... it does not seem to be illegal to wear just robes.

Solitaire - Jan 31, 2009 4:50 pm (#747 of 800)

I didn't say it was illegal. It just struck me as odd.

mona amon - Feb 1, 2009 4:10 am (#748 of 800)

Or perhaps he used Crucio! on her. That one is painful. Or maybe he used Levicorpus! on her. That would have been rather embarrassing to a girl. (Soli)

I don't think it was Crucio. Lily knew what they did to Mary, and she would hardly have excused Sev for calling that a laugh. Levicorpus is not dark magic, and didn't she say they used dark magic? I get a feeling the author couldn't think of anything that was 'dark magic', but which could justifiably be considered by Severus as something similar to what the Marauders did, so she just left it blank. Not fair!

I don't think any of the kids wear trousers under their robes. If Severus had been doing something as odd as not wearing trousers when all the other kids were wearing them, we'd have heard even more taunting from James and Sirius. And Lily would have mentioned it too, instead of merely telling him to wash his underpants.

wynnleaf - Feb 1, 2009 4:34 pm (#749 of 800)

My impression about the robes is that Harry's generation of kids wore more-or-less normal Muggle clothing when they were not wearing robes. However, when they were in their Hogwarts robes, they don't appear to be wearing trousers, or any other Muggle clothing. I don't think JKR's version of "school robes" was simply the typical school robes still used in some British schools. I think she was really thinking of robes more like magicians robes in fairy tales.

As regards what spell Mulciber did on Mary, in some ways Imperius sounds the most likely because Mulciber was later known for using it and because it's the kind of thing someone could use and some kids could shrug the results off as "just a laugh" (if Mary had been forced to do something embarrassing, but not actually harmful), but it would actually be a good deal worse because it was "dark" magic and therefore, well... Bad. (Not that we're ever told why it's worse than other curses and spells.) It the kind of thing Snape could easily, if the Worst Memory scene spells are anything to go by, compare to the things the Marauders did.

The problem with Mulciber using Imperius in school is that using the Unforgivables is supposed to be a major breach of Wizarding law and could send you off to Azkaban. It's hard to see Snape brushing that off as a laugh, if for no other reason than that it could have sent Mulciber to prison.

It could be that Mulciber was using something similar to Imperius, like a Confundus-like spell that was also Dark, but not actually Imperius.

It certainly would have been helpful if JKR had laid out a clear reason for what made Dark magic actually different from other magic.

Solitaire - Feb 1, 2009 6:44 pm (#750 of 800)

I should think that the intent of Dark Magic is to hurt people, either physically, emotionally, or mentally.

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me and my shadow 813 - Feb 1, 2009 6:45 pm (#751 of 800)

(Not that we're ever told why it's worse than other curses and spells.) - wynnleaf

My personal feeling about the Imperius Curse being an Unforgiveable is due to its deceptive nature. You can have a wizard/witch do just about anything including murder and never get your hands dirty. If one chooses to use the Imperius Curse on someone it would by definition be considered concealment or even "possession" if such a crime existed, which it must in WW.

Totally forgot you can get locked up for Imperius, though... OotPs In that case, if Mulciber was "practicing" on Mary his future specialty, then it must have looked like a less "bad" hex or charm...?

Hieronymus Graubart - Feb 2, 2009 12:49 am (#752 of 800)

False Moody teaching how to resist an Imperius Curse in the fourth year in GOF seemed to be an extraordinary situation. Normally this would be advanced stuff, if it is covered in curriculum at all. Watchers may not have recognized the curse. But Lily at least suspected what it had been?

Concerning robes: In PS/SS Hermione has to leave the compartment, so that Harry and Ron can put on their robes. Why should she, if they only pull the robes over their Muggle clothing? This doesn't occur again on other trips to Hogwarts, but then Hermione is not longer a stranger. Just everybody looking the other direction may be sufficient if everybody can be trusted to do so.

Julia H. - Feb 2, 2009 4:51 am (#753 of 800)

I should think that the intent of Dark Magic is to hurt people, either physically, emotionally, or mentally. (Solitaire)

It is likely to be so but the next question is where "hurting" starts. Clearly, the Unforgivables hurt people seriously. But what about Petrificus Totalus, for example? Can it be used with the intent to hurt? Of course, it can. Is it Dark Magic?

I could also mention the Memory Charm(s) or the various spells used in duels and other fights. Are these all Dark?

Solitaire - Feb 2, 2009 6:54 am (#754 of 800)

Normally this would be advanced stuff, if it is covered in curriculum at all. Watchers may not have recognized the curse. But Lily at least suspected what it had been?

The first Voldy War was in progress when Lily was in school. The kids may very well have learned about the Imperius Curse and how to resist it, given the fact that so many claimed to have been under it. As to Lily suspecting that Mary had been hit with the Imperius Curse, we have no idea what was used on her. We're speculating based on knowledge that Mulciber used that spell more recently. I'd say it's a good guess ... but it's equally possible that he used the Cruciatus Curse or some other curse that causes physical pain.

I do not believe Petrificus Totalus would be considered Dark Magic per se, although I can see it being used in conjunction with Dark spells.

Steve Newton - Feb 2, 2009 7:30 am (#755 of 800)

HG, I don't think that false Moody was teaching resistance to the Imperius Curse. He was demonstrating it and found out that Harry could resist.

mona amon - Feb 2, 2009 9:23 am (#756 of 800)

I could also mention the Memory Charm(s) or the various spells used in duels and other fights. Are these all Dark? (Julia)

Very ambiguous, I agree. Especially the distinction between the Confundus and the Imperius. I can see absolutely no difference between the two. Yet one is a charm and the other is a curse, and an unforgivable one at that.

Julia H. - Feb 2, 2009 10:07 am (#757 of 800)
Especially the distinction between the Confundus and the Imperius.

A very good example.

I do not believe Petrificus Totalus would be considered Dark Magic per se, although I can see it being used in conjunction with Dark spells. (Solitaire)

And yet, I would think paralyzing someone, even if only temporarily, counts as hurting.

Mrs Brisbee - Feb 2, 2009 11:21 am (#758 of 800)

Very ambiguous, I agree. Especially the distinction between the Confundus and the Imperius. I can see absolutely no difference between the two. Yet one is a charm and the other is a curse, and an unforgivable one at that.

As I understand the difference, Confundus makes someone believe something is true but does not force them to act upon it (although they may choose to act upon the false information), whereas an Imperius Curse forces a person to do actions that they would never normally consider doing, with no free will in the matter (unless they are able to fight the Imperius Curse, and break it).

I'm not really sure what the exact distinction between Dark and "normal" magic is, myself. I have a vague notion that most Dark magic was designed to cause harm, and is highly likely to cause irreversible damage, but it is all very amorphous.

me and my shadow 813 - Feb 2, 2009 12:49 pm (#759 of 800)

I think the concept of "as long as you are not harming yourself or others" applies here. Also the difference of if you tie somebody up in order to prevent them harming you versus tying somebody up in order to harm them. Same act, big difference. I'd say DEs rarely plan things defensively, rather they are in attack mode.

wynnleaf - Feb 2, 2009 2:44 pm (#760 of 800)

But "harm" can happen in many of the spells and other magic done by the good guys of HP, or taught at Hogwarts.

And what is Stupefy, but harmful? It basically knocks someone out, right? And enough of them certainly harmed McGonagall. The twins’ ton-tongue toffee could easily choke someone to death. Impedimenta can be used to tie someone up, one assumes against their will. Reducto could clearly cause great harm and the DA members use it. An Engorgement Charm, like ton-tongue toffee, could kill someone or cause great harm very easily.

We discussed this quite a bit a while back on another thread. As I recall, we basically got around to focusing on intent , but even there it didn't explain enough.

me and my shadow 813 - Feb 2, 2009 4:04 pm (#761 of 800)

(I was never fond of the twins’ incessant humor, or their version of fun)

I can't help but be reminded of Airport Security! LOL. A crayon could be considered "harmful" in the wrong hands . It ultimately becomes a tedious discussion, in my opinion. Since this is the DE thread, I'll just add that to me a DE-to-be would be into practicing offensive hexes and curses at Hogwarts if they could get away with it and I would imagine Mulciber could have been warming up on Mary with something Imperius-like. Who knows...

Steve Newton - Feb 2, 2009 4:41 pm (#762 of 800)

McGonagall wasn't stupefied. She was hit with Stunning Spells in OOTP.

wynnleaf - Feb 2, 2009 7:54 pm (#763 of 800)

Sorry, I thought Stupefy was a stunning spell. Perhaps I'm wrong. I'm just going from memory.

I checked the Lexicon and according to them, I'm right. A "stunner" is the same as Stupefy.

mona amon - Feb 3, 2009 3:11 am (#764 of 800)

As I understand the difference, Confundus makes someone believe something is true but does not force them to act upon it (although they may choose to act upon the false information), whereas an Imperius Curse forces a person to do actions that they would never normally consider doing, with no free will in the matter (unless they are able to fight the Imperius Curse, and break it). (Mrs Brisbee)

I don't know...if a person is magically conned into believing that something untrue is true, that's taking away their free will, isn't it? If we see the actual examples in the book, the distinction is even less clear. For instance, here's Hermione Confunding McLaggen, 'Cormac McLaggen saved four penalties out of five. On the last one, however, he shot off in completely the wrong direction; the crowd laughed and booed...' Clearly McLaggen did not want to go off in the wrong direction instead of trying to save the goal. But Hermione's spell makes him do it. She might just as well have used the Imperius on him.

Swedish Short-Snout - Feb 3, 2009 6:11 am (#765 of 800)

I think that Hermione's Confundus spell didn't force Cormac to go off in the wrong direction; it just made him confused, which made it more likely that he'd go off in the wrong direction. There's a difference.

wynnleaf - Feb 3, 2009 6:28 am (#766 of 800)

Confused and therefore "more likely" isn't exactly the way I think it goes. Somebody -- Shacklebolt? - used it on Marietta in DD's office in OOTP. It didn't just confuse her. It made her completely forget what she'd done as regards the DA.

Snape suggested that Sirius and/or Lupin had Confunded the trio. Fudge didn't seem to think it was an odd suggestion for the spell to have bee used in order to make the kids think that Sirius was innocent when he really wasn't. Therefore, making people think something that's completely untrue would be a use of the spell. Since people might then act on that false information, it could be a very dangerous spell.

In fact, it's hard to see a good use for Confundus.

Julia H. - Feb 3, 2009 6:45 am (#767 of 800)

If it is the intent of the user that defines what is Dark Magic and what is not, then it must be difficult to classify the spells themselves. When Hermione Confunds Cormac, we may say she does not hurt him - but would Cormac agree? Petrificus Totalus will be Dark Magic when it is used with the intention to attack and hurt someone, e.g., when Draco uses it against Harry in HBP. The same spell is not Dark, however, when Dumbledore uses is to Petrify and protect Harry at the end of HBP. But what about Hermione using it on Neville in PS? She certainly does not use it for Neville's immediate good, however, her general intentions are good and she does not specifically want to "hurt" Neville either.

Similarly, AK is a typical Dark spell, since killing someone is definitely a way of causing harm. And yet... when Snape AK’s Dumbledore, his intention is not to harm Dumbledore but to save him from something else that Dumbledore wants to be saved from. Can we say that AK is not Dark Magic at this moment?

Solitaire - Feb 3, 2009 7:04 am (#768 of 800)

Shacklebolt used a Memory-Modifying Charm on Marietta, according to Dumbledore. I'm inclined to think this is something different than a Confundus Charm. I should think a Memory-Modifying Charm will stay in place indefinitely, unless and until it is lifted ... assuming it can be lifted. A Confundus Charm seems different to me, somehow. JM2K ...

mona amon - Feb 3, 2009 7:16 am (#769 of 800)

Another example-

Snape Confunding Mundungus in the Prince's Tale-'You will suggest to the Order of the Phoenix,' Snape murmured, 'that they use decoys. Polyjuice Potion. Identical Potters. It is the only thing that might work. You will forget that I have suggested this. You will present it as your own idea. You understand?'

'I understand,' murmured Mundungus, his eyes unfocussed.

Compare this to Harry Imperiusing Travers to confuse him about Hermione's wand (in Gringotts),'Oh yes, I see, 'said Travers, looking down at Bellatrix's wand, 'yes, very handsome. And is it working well...[cut]...'

What's the difference? In both cases one person is making the other do or say what that person wants him to do or say. In both cases one person is imposing his will on the other.

me and my shadow 813 - Feb 3, 2009 1:00 pm (#770 of 800)

Good point mona amon and others. To have it handy, here's the Lexicon's definitions...

Confundo (con-FUN-doh) - Confundus Charm

confundo L. to mix up, jumble together, confuse, bewilder, perplex

Causes confusion. A person who is affected by this Charm is said to be Confunded.

# Snape suggested that Harry, Ron, and Hermione were Confunded by Sirius Black into believing him innocent (PA21).

# The fake Moody used this charm to fool the Goblet of Fire into accepting Harry's name under a fourth school (GF17).

# Hermione used a Confundus Charm on McLaggen during Keeper tryouts in her sixth year (HBP11).

# Snape speculated that a Confundus Charm had been placed on Dawlish, who was known to be susceptible (DH1).

# Cast by Harry on each of the two wizards outside the main entrance of Gringotts (DH26).

Imperio (im-PAIR-ee-oh) - Imperius Curse

impero L. order, govern, command

One of the Unforgivable Curses, this spell causes the victim to be completely under the command of the caster, who can make the victim do anything the caster wishes. A victim of this spell is said to have been Imperiused.

There are many citations for Imperius, so it's there for those wishing to see it

wynnleaf - Feb 3, 2009 5:31 pm (#771 of 800)

Solitaire , you're right. Shacklebolt's specific spell isn't given, just that it's a memory modification. So that's not helpful to understanding Confundus.

However (to everyone), I think the examples mona amon and me and my shadow gave show Confundus being used to change people's memories or understanding of what's going on.

I think a big difference may be that with Imperius, the person actually knows that they are being forced to do something against their will. Harry knows that he's being forced and he fights it. Crouch junior and senior both fight the curse because they know that they are being forced to do something they don't want to do.

Others around the victim might not know they are under Imperius, but the individual himself does know it, even if he can't do anything about it.

With Confundus, the person doesn't appear to be aware that they are under a spell. So Snape can change Mundungus' memories of things and put thoughts in his head and Mundungus doesn't even know it. Same apparently for what Snape was suggesting happened to the Trio in the Shrieking Shack (although of course he was wrong). What Snape suggests regarding Dawlish sounds like actually manipulation of his memories and thoughts. Whatever sort of artificial or magical intelligence that the Goblet has is fooled by the Confundus. Given those examples of what the spell seems to do, it seems less likely that Hermione's spell just befuddled McClaggen, but more likely actually altered his thoughts or memory incorrect, such as making him think the players or goals were in different places, or some other alteration of thought so that he would make bad plays.

In any case, whatever Hermione's did, it's pretty clear that Confundus can be used in very dangerous ways. I can see why Imperius is Really Bad, but what I don't see is why Confundus isn't just as bad. And I especially don't see why it's not even Dark at all.

By the way, just as we can see that Confundus could be used in very dangerous ways, I can also imagine ways where Imperius could be used in good ways. Sometimes it might be necessary to force someone to do something, for instance in an emergency, that is for their own good.

It's just like one could easily find excellent reasons for the AK, such as on an animal that is dying painfully and must be put down. It would be a quick and painless death. So why is it always bad? Or is it? DD appears to think that Snape using it in HBP would be a mercy.

Solitaire - Feb 3, 2009 8:12 pm (#772 of 800)

Wynnleaf, all I can think is that the situation must determine the good or bad of such spells as Confundus or Memory Charms. Why are they being performed? I'm sure that the Ministry would not think that Shacklebolt's modification of Marietta's memory in order to lie to the Ministry was a worthy excuse. On the other hand, the Ministry was so corrupted at that point that the Order couldn't take a chance that they might send Harry AND Dumbledore to Azkaban.

Ouch ... I hate situational ethics.

I agree that the Imperius Curse could be helpful in certain situations. Suppose you needed to have someone leave a dangerous situation, but panic rendered the person hysterical or incapable of moving one way or the other. If you can't snap a person out of panic and into his senses, the Imperius Curse would be a way to get him moving in the right direction and out of harm's way. Of course, I wonder if it has ever been used that way. I suspect it is mainly used to get people to act against their consciences and break the law.

Orion - Feb 4, 2009 3:13 am (#773 of 800)

I don't think that Imperiused persons know about their condition because the DE in DH who is Imperiused by Harry (forgot his name, they go to Gringotts together) doesn't have a clue. (BTW, I found him very likeable under the Imperius curse and really warmed to him. It helped his personality no end.) I agree about the helpfulness of the Imperius and the AK in certain situations, but there is one curse which doesn't have any positive capacities altogether and that is the Cruciatus.

Solitaire - Feb 4, 2009 7:24 am (#774 of 800)

Cruciatus and Aveda Kedavra were invented specifically to harm and to kill. While I do not approve of AK, I think Molly Weasley had ample reason to use it. If she hadn't, Bella would have used it on her. Anyway, Bella has already escaped from Azkaban, and she is dangerous. I think she needed to die. Sorry, Bella lovers ...

I have often wondered if the death of Crabbe made any difference in his father or in Goyle.

mona amon - Feb 4, 2009 7:26 am (#775 of 800)

Sorry, Bella lovers ...

Are there any?

wynnleaf - Feb 4, 2009 7:28 am (#776 of 800)

Orion, I agree about Cruciatus. It's torture, pure and simple, and I wouldn't consider it ever right, and it's use certainly never "gallant". I honestly couldn't understand JKR's having McGonagall say that. I can understand JKR's explanation of Harry's use of it, saying that Harry uses it because he is flawed, as Snape is flawed (her comment).

Back on the DEs, it's interesting that although some of the DEs clearly wanted out (like Karkaroff and later the Malfoys), JKR doesn't present any of them other than Snape and Regulus as rebelling against LV. I'm thinking of the recent film Valkerie (spelling), about the Nazi officers that tried to stop Hitler. Of course, at that time there were people who were officers before Hitler took over and kind of got caught up in events and trying to find a way be loyal to their country, including the new leader, yet then discovering that they couldn't support the leader. So that's different. But still, we don't see DEs during DH who were wanting to back out or subvert their evil leader. Am I forgetting someone?

mona amon - Feb 4, 2009 8:14 am (#777 of 800)

I think, with the exception of Bella, most of the inner circle DEs would have wanted to back out after a while, not because of ideological differences or remorse but because Voldy was such a twisted monster that they were always in danger of the Cruciatus or AK. He certainly doesn't make life very pleasant for his supporters. Look at the way he snubs Yaxley, harasses Lucius and taunts Bella in the first chapter of DH, not to mention feeding Charity Burbage to Nagini on poor Narcissa's dining table.

But I suppose they'd all be too scared to try and leave.

EDIT: I think McGonagall calls it gallant because Harry is quite willing to risk harming his immortal soul to avenge the insult to her. It isn't a good thing, but... I think it's gallant too!

Solitaire - Feb 4, 2009 7:31 pm (#778 of 800)

Yes, I think McGonagall was referring to the "chivalrous" action of avenging the disrespect done to her.

tandaradei - Feb 5, 2009 3:48 pm (#779 of 800)

Hey, as regards Dark Arts, I think Jo did some cogitating on that subject in Dumbledore's remarks after the 3rd tale of the Beedle stories ("The Warlock's Hairy Heart"). Dumbledore says, It [Hairy Heart story] speaks to the dark depths in all of us. It addresses one of the greatest, and least acknowledged, temptations of magic: the quest for invulnerability."

IMO this can mean more than a Death Eater's desire to be invulnerable. Too, I think it speaks a desire even a Muggle can have: which is to have all things "one's own way" only. The point of the Unforgivables, one might argue, is that they can occur without negotiations (where dueling, IMO, might be seen as "negotiating"). Of course, all acts of magic appear to be somewhat non-negotiable, in that if nothing is immediately done to offset them, they will take effect, if the caster is adept at such things. What I mean here for Dark Arts, though, is that if such spells are adeptly cast, that the receiver normally has no recourse. In this sense, a Dark Art comes from an Invulnerable, and is laid down onto a complete "Vulnerable" ... and that such stuff is unnatural in the way of things, or just bad or Dark.

me and my shadow 813 - Feb 5, 2009 9:25 pm (#780 of 800)

tanda, I would agree with your last paragraph. This falls again into the sense of not harming oneself or others, but more specifically not *overpowering* others. With a spell or "hex" the damage is such that the subject still has powers (physical/mental) with which to defend, counter, deflect or avoid completely subsequent spells/hexes. A curse is debilitating enough that, if one's reflexes are not up to par, power is taken away, thus the caster has overpowered you.

Differences, of course, regard the intent, i.e., DD using the Full Body Bind Curse on Harry atop the Tower. Even so, such a curse does not inflict damage unless the paralysed person hit their head or otherwise from the fall...

I keep going back to having a protective weapon at home and using it if you have to. For instance, having a baseball bat next to your bed if there are a lot of break-ins around your neighborhood. How is that Dark?

Orion - Feb 6, 2009 8:21 am (#781 of 800)

Self-defence in a situation of immediate danger can never be dark, IMO, no matter whether you hit somebody over the head or curse him. Again, I think this rules out the Cruciatus.

Edited because of grammar.

wynnleaf - Feb 10, 2009 3:03 pm (#782 of 800)

I'm curious about everyone's opinions on something.

In the HP universe, wizarding people are given several types of "blood" terms, not including "Mudblood". There's "pure-blood", "half-blood", and "Muggle-born".

JKR has said that half-blood is anyone who doesn't have two Muggle parents, but is also not a pure-blood. So, in other words, a half-blood could have 1 Muggle and 1 pure-blood parent, 1 Muggle-born and 1 pure-blood parent, or two Muggle-born parents, or 1 Muggle and one half-blood parent.

Death Eaters and LV are supposed to promote blood purity. The Death Eaters don't know that LV is a half-blood. He keeps that secret because he hated that aspect of himself. When Harry wanted to throw an infuriating comment at Bellatrix, he told her that Voldemort was a half-blood and that his father was a Muggle. Bellatrix gets very angry and that and wants to deny it.

JKR wanted to correlate the whole blood purity thing to real life racial prejudices. In many ways it works, although there's a big difference in some of the logistics of how the prejudices work out, since there are no visible signs to even hint that a person is pure-blood, half-blood, or Muggle-born. A person like LV can get away with hiding his being a half-blood for years.

In real life, people with mixed racial backgrounds often find themselves in a quandary over how to describe themselves, especially when faced with those frustrating government forms that ask you to check one box with your racial heritage. Good grief! Anyway, many people feel they are forced by "the system" to choose between two, or maybe even more, groups.

In real life, people of mixed heritage have historically often faced even worse prejudice than people of a single racial heritage, many times finding a bias in both of their family's racial groups toward their mix.

Further, in real life, when one group is strongly prejudiced against another, and even strongly oppressing the other group, most typically the oppressors will include anyone with partial heritage of the oppressed in with that group. So under the Nazis, having only one Jewish parent, or even just one grandparent, might mark you out.

Even more, when a particular racial or ethnic group is being oppressed, people with partial racial or ethnic status in the group tend to feel that it's "their" group that is being oppressed. There are always a few people who attempt to turn their backs on their own heritage (like LV), just as a few people with partial Jewish background in Nazi Germany not only tried to pretend that they didn't have that heritage (a bit more understandable), but actually joined and took part in Nazi activities.

But in the HP world, the mixed group seems to be in the opposite situation. Death Eaters and Voldemort are, of course, highly prejudiced against Muggle-borns, but they don't seem to have anything much to say about half-bloods. And we are never shown any problem that they have in accepting half-bloods into the ranks of DEs. Of course, they might just be following LV's lead on this without knowing that he's a half-blood himself. Still, we aren't shown that even the Malfoys (highly into the pure-blood thing), have any problem with Snape being a half-blood.

It's odd to me that the highly prejudiced pure-blood types are willing to accept half-bloods so completely, to the point of letting them join in with DEs, while still being so prejudiced toward Muggle-borns. And yet, Bella was completely insulted for LV when Harry told her LV had a Muggle father.

Another part that makes it more odd is that the Wizarding World of Britain would have had the population of a rather smallish town. As Sirius pointed out, most pure-bloods were related somehow or another, so they'd easily know who was likely to be a half-blood. An orphan like Riddle might be able to hide it, but I don't think most people would be able to do so. The half-blood DEs were most likely known to be half-blood. And yet they were accepted.

rambkowalczyk - Feb 10, 2009 6:10 pm (#783 of 800)

Although we can make a connection between Pure-blood, Mudblood and how we classified either 'races' or cultures, her analogy isn't complete. As was pointed out anyone who had even one Jewish or black ancestor would be considered Jewish or black.

This doesn't seem to be the same prejudice in the wizarding world. It is as though the magical parent more than makes up for the lack of magic in the other parent. As long as the offspring can do magic, then it doesn't matter. Pure-bloods probably fear that if they mate with a Muggle-born or someone whose bloodline isn't totally magical fear they will have a child that is a Squib.

I think Muggle-borns are feared because there is no explanation as to where their magic comes from. If magic can be freely given, then it stands to reason that magic can be taken away.

wynnleaf - Feb 10, 2009 6:33 pm (#784 of 800)

I think Muggle-borns are feared because there is no explanation as to where their magic comes from. If magic can be freely given, then it stands to reason that magic can be taken away. (ramb)

Good explanation. That makes sense to me, although I'm not sure if it's ever stated in the books.

Solitaire - Feb 10, 2009 8:03 pm (#785 of 800)

Actually, I think it is stated somewhere--in DH, perhaps. Okay, yes ... I just found it in Chapter 11 of DH. There is a blurb in the Daily Prophet that says that, where no Wizarding ancestry exists, the "so-called Muggle-borns" are likely to have obtained magical power by theft or by force.

Did the Ministry really believe this? Hard to say ... but they were perpetuating it and making people believe Muggle-borns had come by their magic illegally.

mona amon - Feb 10, 2009 8:37 pm (#786 of 800)

You've raised interesting points, Wynnleaf.

I feel that a racial minority cannot effectively bully another racial minority. To do this they need the support of the racial majority. In the WW pure-bloods are in the minority. So are Muggle-borns. We know that prejudice against Muggle-borns has existed for a long time, but that the majority of the people did not have this prejudice. It was Voldemort who was gradually able to get some support from the half-blood majority for his discriminatory ideology.

I'm not sure how he managed to do this. I'll have to think about it some more. But the trick is obviously to not discriminate against the half-bloods themselves. His tactics would include giving them a feeling that they are inferior to pure-bloods, but superior to Muggle-borns. I'm also not sure if his anti-Muggle-born ideology was a result of genuine conviction or mere political expediency.

And yet, Bella was completely insulted for LV when Harry told her LV had a Muggle father.

Voldemort himself never hid the fact that he was a half-blood of the 'worst' sort, i.e. having one Muggle parent. In GOF he explains to his circle of DEs that his Muggle father had his uses (or something like that). Devoted pure-bloods like Bella would try to play this down, even though they know it is true, and wince every time anyone has the courage to fling it at their faces, as Harry does.

Solitaire - Feb 10, 2009 9:44 pm (#787 of 800)

It was Voldemort who was gradually able to get some support from the half-blood majority for his discriminatory ideology. ... I'm not sure how he managed to do this.

Study the Holocaust.

mona amon - Feb 10, 2009 11:44 pm (#788 of 800)

Well I took your advice, at least to the extent of looking it up on wikipedia. I came across these chilling paragraphs-

Michael Berenbaum writes that Germany became a "genocidal state."[6] Every arm of the country's sophisticated bureaucracy was involved in the killing process. Parish churches and the Interior Ministry supplied birth records showing who was Jewish; the Post Office delivered the deportation and denaturalization orders; the Finance Ministry confiscated Jewish property; German firms fired Jewish workers and disenfranchised Jewish stockholders; the universities refused to admit Jews, denied degrees to those already studying, and fired Jewish academics; government transport offices arranged the trains for deportation to the camps; German pharmaceutical companies tested drugs on camp prisoners; companies bid for the contracts to build the crematoria; detailed lists of victims were drawn up using the Dehomag company's punch card machines, producing meticulous records of the killings. As prisoners entered the death camps, they were made to surrender all personal property, which was carefully catalogued and tagged before being sent to Germany to be reused or recycled. Berenbaum writes that the Final Solution of the Jewish question was "in the eyes of the perpetrators Ö Germany's greatest achievement."[19]

Saul Friedlander writes that: "Not one social group, not one religious community, not one scholarly institution or professional association in Germany and throughout Europe declared its solidarity with the Jews."[20] He writes that some Christian churches declared that converted Jews should be regarded as part of the flock, but even then only up to a point.

Friedlander argues that this makes the Holocaust distinctive because anti-Semitic policies were able to unfold without the interference of countervailing forces of the kind normally found in advanced societies, such as industry, small businesses, churches, and other vested interests and lobby groups.

But this does not answer my question. Now I'm not sure how the Nazis gathered so much majority support.

rambkowalczyk - Feb 11, 2009 4:51 am (#789 of 800)

so-called Muggle-borns are likely to have obtained magical power by theft or by force.

a statement motivated by fear. Sometimes it's easier to believe in nonsense than to accept the fact that not everything is known and explained.

If they truly believed this, than why don't Squibs use the same methods to get power.

I'm not sure if it's ever stated in the books.

It isn't. It is just an hypothesis.

In the WW pure-bloods are in the minority.

Well, true Pure-bloods are. It's possible that there are many half-bloods masquerading as Pure-bloods, so that it appears as if there are more Pure-bloods.

Technically speaking Harry is a half-blood because Lily is Muggle-born. However because of his deeds people are willing to forget this, provided he marries someone who is a Pure-blood, which he does. Of course, Harry doesn't have these Pure-blood ideals; he just happens to love Ginny.

I wonder if the label Pure-blood has to do with the type of person you marry because having a child who can do magic validates you as a person. Therefore Muggle-borns are offensive because their parents who are Muggles are somewhat equal to witches and wizards.

Solitaire - Feb 11, 2009 7:16 am (#790 of 800)

Ramb is correct in that it is motivated by fear. Hitler and the Nazi party used propaganda and fear to stir up hatred of the Jews. They were blamed for many of the evils that had existed in Germany since WWI. But there is more.

Jews were not the only group to be targeted by Hitler. Gypsies, communists, homosexuals, trade unionists, and other groups were also persecuted. The Germans were not the only ones dong the persecuting, either. Kinderlager describes the plight and persecution of three Jewish women who had miraculously managed to survive Auschwitz as children. Upon returning to their native Poland following the liberation of the camp by the Russians, the girls and their surviving family members were brutally persecuted by the Polish people and finally emigrated to America.

If you can find the right buttons to push, you can convince anyone that someone else is the enemy. Those who do it on the scale of Hitler also used intimidation. If you knew what was happening to the Jews, then you didn't want to become a victim yourself by helping them. Read Corrie Ten Boom's story of how her family hid Jews and were eventually sent to concentration camps themselves. Watch Sophie's Choice. People were frightened. Fear is a great motivator.

This is not a great answer, but I'm in a hurry, and my thoughts are rather disjointed. If you really want some good Holocaust sites to check out, or some books to read, email me, Mona. I haven't taught a class for a few years, but I can get my hands on some good resources for you.

wynnleaf - Feb 11, 2009 12:32 pm (#791 of 800)

If you can find the right buttons to push, you can convince anyone that someone else is the enemy. (Solitaire)

Quite true. I'm not nearly as well versed in my history about that as you are, Solitaire. However, as I recall one of the reasons many cite for the willingness of the country to accept these things was that Germany, after WWI, had been hit so very hard by ridiculously impossible international sanctions and penalties. Then the depression came along and the country was completely devastated by inflation and the plunging value of the Mark. I seem to recall (could be wrong), stories of people having to take huge amounts of cash with them simply to do weekly shopping, because the Mark was practically worthless.

I think that made it, unfortunately, easier to accept the almost bizarre ideas that certain racial and ethnic groups were somehow not only "not good" for the country, but also harming it and that they had to be removed by practically any method possible. In other words, people were looking for a scapegoat (kind of like during the Plague years when people looked for a scapegoat for what they assumed was divine wrath through the Plague). As I understand it, Hitler was able to capitalize on that climate and his ideas that these measures would help the country were accepted (initially, I mean, not after the fear factor set in), because the people were so desperate.

But in the Wizarding World, you don't have that sort of desperate situation driving the pure-bloods and half-bloods to embrace the purity issue. However, there is a type of fear factor, stemming in part from historical problems with Muggle persecution of the magical world. I can understand, especially with the growing power of the Muggle world, how fear of Muggles knowing about their world might increase significantly. And therefore, Muggle-borns, who bring their families into knowledge of the WW, would seem dangerous, even if they themselves were embracing magic.

Julia H. - Feb 11, 2009 1:22 pm (#792 of 800)

I think the necessity to hide may in itself create more tension than we actually see. The fear of being discovered, perhaps one day "out-powered"(?), by Muggles is added to that tension.

Solitaire - Feb 11, 2009 8:25 pm (#793 of 800)

Wynnleaf, you are right (I bet you never thought you'd see me write that! ) about Germany's economic situation being one of the huge engines that propelled Hitler's anti-Semitic talk. Everything really started with propaganda and scapegoating. The Jews provided a handy scapegoat upon which to heap the blame for Germany's problems. (Okay, I see you have mentioned this, as well.) BTW, I'm not sure that I am any more knowledgeable about the Holocaust than you or other members here on the Forum. I've read a lot of Holocaust history, and I've had the good fortune to meet Survivors and hear their personal stories, that's all.

I think most people with any basic knowledge of the Holocaust would have immediately drawn parallels between Hitler's persecution of the Jews and Voldemort's persecution of Muggle-born Wizards. I was not surprised later when I read that Jo had talked about these things. I still think fear was the lever that both Voldemort and Hitler used to bring the general public in line with "official" policy on racial stereotyping. I think Xenophilius Lovegood represents those who certainly do not agree with "the official party position" but who give in and support it out of fear for their loved ones.

me and my shadow 813 - Feb 11, 2009 8:48 pm (#794 of 800)

And therefore, Muggle-borns, who bring their families into knowledge of the WW, would seem dangerous, even if they themselves were embracing magic. - wynnleaf

Absolutely, combined with the aforementioned concept of Muggle-borns having their magic appear out of theft or some "wrong" source. Reminds me of a reversal of the Salem Witch Trials... that a 'normal' person would be persecuted for having magical/wizarding abilities.

I am no expert about Hitler’s rise to power but I was under the impression that he played to the peasants and their suppression. As wynnleaf stated, ‘blaming’ a race under the guise of righteousness, the restitution for those being oppressed. I’d like to hear others’ input because, although I am familiar with WWI history and Kaiser Wilhelm II, I am not well versed in Hitler’s propaganda.

me and my shadow 813 - Feb 12, 2009 3:49 pm (#795 of 800)

Correction of my above post:

Referring to wynnleaf's quote, I meant to say a 'reverse' of the Salem Witch Trials is the idea of Muggle parents of Muggle-borns being persecuted by WW for being 'regular' people...

Okay, that's better

wynnleaf - Feb 12, 2009 6:18 pm (#796 of 800)

Aside

Oh, shadow, I love the unicorn tapestries!!! Have you seen them? They're in NYC.

me and my shadow 813 - Feb 12, 2009 6:32 pm (#797 of 800)

No I haven't -- I wish I could have made this image a higher resolution but it was too much storage. They are great, talk about symbolism!

me and my shadow 813 - Feb 14, 2009 11:12 pm (#798 of 800)

so-called Muggle-borns are likely to have obtained magical power by theft or by force.

a statement motivated by fear. Sometimes it's easier to believe in nonsense than to accept the fact that not everything is known and explained.

If they truly believed this, than why don't Squibs use the same methods to get power?

Regarding this recent discussion, it's interesting to note that Muggle-borns are manifesting a recessive gene of magical abilities. I'm going to research this further on the Lex (I get so lost in there... which page was I on? ) but it seems important when considering prejudice and it's alter ego: fear of the unknown / inexplicable.

me and my shadow 813 - Feb 15, 2009 3:37 pm (#799 of 800)

Here is the quote about the recessive wizard gene popping up in the Muggle World. It refers to Ron explaining Squibs and their being very rare in WW.

This would suggest that the wizarding talent gene is recessive (or linked to more than one gene, or some other explanation), if apparently magic-less people produce a wizard, and wizards rarely produce anything but more wizards.

As mentioned, if you could "steal" magical power, Squibs wouldn't need Kwikspell which doesn't seem to work anyway. I am reminded of the recessive gene for blue eyes, which relates to Hitler's ideas. If someone is born with blue eyes in a family where no relation on record had anything but brown eyes, it would still stand to reason that the trait came from someone.

On the other hand, trying to keep certain traits/genes strong is not wrong, IMO. People with red hair are apparently a dying breed. A red-haired woman told me her family wants to send her to Scotland to marry a red-headed man. While this sounds odd, I wouldn't like to see red hair become extinct.

Regarding Muggles, it seems Vold split his soul before ever making a Horcrux, by denying the part of himself that is non-magical.

Solitaire - Feb 15, 2009 4:33 pm (#800 of 800)

I think the brutal-faced DE on the tower was captured by the Ministry. I love red hair!

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