Harry Potter and the Cursed Child (replies will contain SPOILERS)

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Did I miss some continuity errors?

Post  Hieronymus Graubart on Sun Sep 04, 2016 8:39 am

Well, this time we didn’t see Harry wake in the kitchen, like he did on the stairs in scene II/2. Harry may have gone to the kitchen to have a cup of tea after his nightmare. There are no stage directions for that, but I guess Ginny heard his scream in her sleep, took a second to wake, too, looked for Harry and just found him in the kitchen, fumbling with the kettle, when the scene starts.

I like Verity’s extended scene, although "Next Tuesday" is a bit exaggerated. So, the only scene that requires Scorpius to be a Slytherin is nonsensical. If Scorpius were in Hufflepuff, he couldn’t slip into the Slytherin dormitory at night. They would have their conversation when they meet in the library (can they still go there while they are in constant detention?) or when they have a class together (do Slytherins and Hufflepuffs share classes?), but then they have to part ways again to go to different classes, and when they secretly meet again at night, Albus has had time to send an owl to Delphi.

Lady Arabella, "the prophecy can only be retrieved by the persons it is about" only applies to the "official" copies of prophecies kept in the Department of Mysteries; they are under privacy protection charms. Everybody who heard the original prophecy may have told Rodolphus (if he didn’t hear it himself or made it up), everybody who knew about the prophecy could tell Delphi, and what’s retrieved from the lamp is just Delphi’s private copy of what Rodolphus told her.

If the Malfoys presented a random Mediwitch who confirmed that Scorpius is Draco’s child, everybody who believed the rumour would just believe that the Malfoys had bribed the Mediwitch. Apparently Harry doesn’t share Draco’s believe that everybody considers the Ministry unbribable.

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Re: Harry Potter and the Cursed Child (replies will contain SPOILERS)

Post  Verity Weasley on Sun Sep 04, 2016 9:01 am

Julia, we're not there yet with our scene by scene critical analysis, but later on when Delphi is talking to Harry disguised as Voldemort she says that she was born in Malfoy Manor before the Battle of Hogwarts. This definitely implies that she was born at some stage during the events of Deathly Hallows. I think this is one of the biggest issues with the whole script. The idea that Bellatrix could have a child during that time and no one would notice. If there were rumours about Scorpius's parentage, there definitely would have been rumours about any child of Bellatrix's.


Julia wrote:I see that at the moment he is drunk, but the next day, when he is (supposedly) sober, he still thinks it's all right and nobody finds that strange? Just how moronic did Ron get over the years?

Ron is definitely just here to fulfil the role of bumbling idiot. First we have him talking about how he was too drunk to remember his and Hermione's wedding, then recounting his story of drinking with Neville. Again, as we mentioned earlier, the idea of Ron being so flippant about the use of love potions is just unthinkable. Also, are we sure this is the next day? Ron says he saw Albus last night, but in that case, why would he think that there's nothing to worry about and that Albus and Scorpius are not actually missing? Isn't he suggesting that they're not missing, they're just on the roof with a girl? But if this is the next day, why would he think they are still on the roof?

In killing Craig Bowker Jr, didn't Delphi just create another spare?

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Re: Harry Potter and the Cursed Child (replies will contain SPOILERS)

Post  Verity Weasley on Sun Sep 04, 2016 9:14 am

Julia wrote:BTW, Dephi having a Time Turner would make the boys' actions totally unnecessary, because she could do everything herself. But to be honest, I don't understand why on earth she wants the boys to do the job instead of just taking the Time Turner from them by force at the very beginning. Is she afraid? But then why isn't she afraid in the end?
Delphi can't do it herself because of the prophecy. For some reason she seems to think that the 'unseen children' have to be the ones to use the time turner, and she's decided that Albus is the unseen child. And I guess Scorpius is just along for the ride. However, the prophecy is pretty vague on that whole thing - as prophecies tend to be. The prophecy talks in plurals - it's spares, children and fathers - but her plan only involves one spare, one unseen child and one murdered father. So, I don't know why she thinks her plan is going to work anyway.

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My notes for Scenes III/17 to III/21

Post  Hieronymus Graubart on Sun Sep 04, 2016 11:13 am

So – ah – new canon detected? I always believed that when Hermione and Ginny had finished school, they still waited some years before they formally married when they and their boyfriends decided that it was time to have children. But apparently Hermione and Ron married quite young and Ron was so nervous that he got drunk?

Ron saw Albus last night, so it's the next day now. Actually, it's the next morning, because Harry, Ginny and Draco wouldn't waste time in seeking the Minister for Magic's help. It's still less than twenty-four hours since Myrtle spilled the news of the Time-Turner to Draco and McGonagall. (Yeah, it’s definitively not the Ron I remember from the books, but we established already that we are in movieverse, with house-coloured ties and all.)

Silver and blue hair? Is Delphi trying to look like a Mary Sue? Sometimes I wonder whether Rowling intentionally took up the worst clichés of bad fanfiction to see whether she could make them work.


We may be getting closer to the truth; Amos Diggory never had a niece.


Why did Delphi waste so many hours before she took Albus and Scorpius to the Quidditch pitch? Shouldn’t she better have done this in the dark of the night? Or is this meant to be a flashback to last night?

In scene sixteen, Delphi said about her Augurey tattoo,
It reminds me that the future is mine to make.
That's quite ironic, because she doesn't actually do that. Delphi's flaw is that she cannot think on her own, or should I say that she isn't able to choose her own way. She totally depended on a prophecy to tell her what to do. She apparently never thought, Now that I found out where to steal a Time-Turner, I can travel back in time and

  • kill Neville so that he can't kill Nagini.
  • kill Narcissa so that she can't pretend that Harry Potter is dead when she knows he's still alive.
  • kill Aberforth Dumbledore so that he can't protect Harry Potter at Hogsmeade.
  • kill Dobby so that he can't help Harry Potter to escape from Malfoy Manor.
  • kill Ron so that he can't rescue Harry when Harry dives into this icy pool to get Gryffindor's sword.
  • kill Hermione so that she can't help Harry escaping from Bathilda Bagshot's house.  
  • kill Snape so that he can't overhear part of that prophecy and tell Voldemort about it.
  • kill Lily Evans before she meets James Potter.
  • or do anything else that would help Voldemort to win.

Delpi believes that, since there is a prophecy about bringing the Dark Lord back, fulfilling the prophecy must be the only way to bring him back, and she has to go through all the trouble of making Albus fulfil the Prophecy.

And now, she depends on Scorpius inaccurate report, too. Just stunning Cedric would be sufficient, or teleporting him to the Sahara. Even killing Cedric in a way that doesn't allow Harry to feel responsible for Cedric's sudden death might work, but of course that wouldn't fulfil the prophecy. Delphi never thinks about what really made Cedric's survival significant apart from Voldemort himself calling him "the spare", or why her precious prophecy doesn't require the spare being humiliated before he is spared. Since humiliating Cedric apparently worked once, humiliating him again must be the only way to do this right.

And when it's all done, the Augurey will sit at Voldemort's side and be told what to do next, and since Voldemort will be immortal again she will never need to make a decision on her own. Poor girl. Can’t she think of a better dream to pursue?

Finally, we get to hear the prophecy, and it's as vague as prophecies usually are. Is it even about Voldemort? "Dark Lord" is such a generic title, I'm sure it has been claimed by more than one person in history. Is Delphi doing this wrong? Is Craig Bowker jr one of the spares who should have been spared? Just saying. She did call him a spare, right?


Yeah, Scorpius talks too much.  Don't tell her!

Ah, the Time-Turner can be used to go further back while already in the past. Is going in stages less dangerous than making one big jump? Delphi probably doesn't care; she acts on the spur of the moment.

And now she got that fulfilling her prophecy may not be the only way to bring Voldemort back.


Harry is not supposed to be understanding Parseltongue – but he does? And he can speak it, too, he just didn't try for many years? There's another reason to reread the previous books. How canonical is "Harry was a Parselmouth only as long as a part of Voldemort's soul was stuck in him"?
'I will rebirth the Dark. I will bring my father back.'
RON
         No. She can't...
HERMIONE
         How is it even – possible?
The voices of reason. We will discuss this when we got more details. For now let's keep in mind that we only have Delphi's word for it.

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Re: Harry Potter and the Cursed Child (replies will contain SPOILERS)

Post  Julia H. on Sun Sep 04, 2016 3:59 pm

Verity Weasley wrote:Julia, we're not there yet with our scene by scene critical analysis, but later on when Delphi is talking to Harry disguised as Voldemort she says that she was born in Malfoy Manor before the Battle of Hogwarts. This definitely implies that she was born at some stage during the events of Deathly Hallows. I think this is one of the biggest issues with the whole script. The idea that Bellatrix could have a child during that time and no one would notice. If there were rumours about Scorpius's parentage, there definitely would have been rumours about any child of Bellatrix's.

I agree, this is really strange. Yet, it seems that Delphi's existence was a well-kept secret. I can't imagine how she could have ended up being raised by a Death Eater family if the other side had known about her. Even if Euphemia Rowle wasn't herself a Death Eater, she obviously had "pretty extreme" Death Eater relatives. Who would leave Voldemort's child in such a family? I understand that (apparently) there are no orphanages in the wizarding world (am I right?), and that not many wizarding families would volunteer, but still - who chose Euphemia? Delphi says Euphemia raised her only for the gold - but who paid it? The Ministry? Then why weren't they watching over her? Was everyone so sure that the Dark Side had been forever defeated that they never worried that surviving dark wizards might want to use Voldie's child to achieve their own goals, to say just one example?

If, however, the Ministry never knew about Delphi, then the gold must have been paid out of Bella's vault by Bella's surviving family members - Narcissa, most likely, who wouldn't want to raise Voldie's child herself, but would feel perhaps obliged to arrange for someone to raise Bella's child. That could be why Delphi never went to Hogwarts.

If her birth was somehow magically registered, then someone probably modified the Ministry's files while Voldie was still in power. Perhaps Voldemort himself wanted to keep her birth a secret. Or perhaps Voldemort himself didn't know... (would that be possible?), perhaps Bella didn't dare to tell him and she used some magic to hide her pregnancy - so no one noticed (but someone must have helped her, so Narcissa probably knew).

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My notes for Scenes IV/1 to IV/5

Post  Hieronymus Graubart on Mon Sep 05, 2016 10:34 am

It's the second day since Albus's attempts to change history were found out, and this is very different from the first Extraordinary General Meeting. Now they all stand together. Apparently even the giants and the trolls haven't been overly hostile to being interviewed.

She's going to kill Harry herself.
No, that's impossible. The big one says that only Harry can kill Voldemort and only Voldemort can kill Harry, so Delphi can't. It's a common misunderstanding. I'm sure Delphi fell for it.

How do they get to Godric’s Hollow, with no wands, no brooms, no Muggle money, and keeping all interactions, like with the Aviemore Train Station Master, so low-level that they don’t cause any significant changes to history? My willing suspension of disbelief is stretched thin again. At least Delphi not causing any accidental changes before she intentionally tries to change history may be plausible; she may keep out of everybody’s sight because she expects that Albus and Scorpius will try to find and stop her.


Getting lots of fanon out of the way:

  • The Fidelius Charm isn’t an invisibility charm, and its use isn’t limited to hide persons or places. Professor Flitwick said that it involves concealing a secret, hiding information so that it can’t be found unless the Secret Keeper divulges it. There is no implication that the secret couldn’t be the amount of Flitwick’s monthly income or Robert Galbraith’s true name(*).
  • To illustrate the workings of the Fidelius Charm, Professor Flitwick said that Voldemort wouldn’t have been able to find the Potters "even if he had his nose pressed against their sitting-room window". Professor Flitwick, probably not knowing the actual words of the secret, may have assumed that it was something like "the Potters are hiding in their own house in Godric’s Hollow". Anyway, he didn’t specify whether Voldemort wouldn’t find the secret information because the house or the Potters would be invisible or because the Fidelius Charm in some way would prevent the Potters being in the sitting room at this specific time or Voldemort would just be confunded into not recognizing the persons in the sitting room or multiple other options I don’t even think of.
  • Actually there is no evidence that the Fidelius Charm ever made anything invisible. Since we don’t know that "every security measure known to wizardkind" (OP 6) doesn’t include being invisible to unwanted visitors, 12 GP being invisible to certain persons at certain times isn’t evidence that it was made invisible by the Fidelius Charm.
  • Professor Flitwick didn’t explain what happens to persons who know the secret before the spell is cast. There is no reason to assume that they forget what they knew and need to find the information again.
  • I don’t remember since when Hermione, to name one example, knew where the Potters had once been hiding, but I’m sure she found this information in some other way than being told by Peter Pettigrew. Obviously the Fidelius Charm stopped working when James and Lily were dead and Harry had been taken away, so that everybody could find out what once had been the secret.

 
All the time travellers knowing where the Potters had been hiding, not forgetting this information while travelling to a time when the Fidelius Charm was still active, and actually being able to find the place and to see the Potters shouldn’t surprise anyone (but apparently it does).

New canon detected! The secret must have been something as plain and simple as "the Potters are in Godric’s Hollow". No, this wouldn’t make the whole town of Godric’s Hollow invisible. But in an extension of Professor Flitwick’s quote, which actually reads
You-Know-Who could search the village where Lily and James were staying for years and never find them, not even if he had his nose pressed against their sitting-room window!
the Fidelius Charm also wouldn’t allow Voldemort to meet and recognize the Potters on the streets of that village, because that would mean finding out the secret information in another way than being told by the Secret Keeper. When Lily wrote to Sirius
James is getting a bit frustrated shut up here, he tries not to show it but I can tell – also, Dumbledore’s still got his Invisibility Cloak, so no chance of little excursions.
she didn’t talk about leaving the house; she must have meant leaving the town going to places where James could actually have done something to help the Order of the Phoenix.

Yes, I've seen complaints about how ignoring the Fidelius Charm here is breaking canon, and I actually complained myself about the Potters going on walks outside the house before I thought that through.   Embarassed


Ah, Dumbledore has a portrait in Harry’s office. And he's finally called out.

So the things in Theodore Nott's cellar may not have been family heirlooms after all. Theo is some sort of magical inventor who created devices that, although not necessarily being Dark, broke the laws in some way or another. He did it for profit or just to see whether it could be done, and Lucius Malfoy knew where he could get things that were the only one of their kind. Neither of them ever intended to use their Time-Turners for anything but testing the functionality, though.

I can't tell how long Draco hesitated before he revealed this to Harry. Two days since Scorpius pretended that he had lost Nott's Time-Turner? One day since Draco learned that Delphi must have taken it? Did more time pass?

Albus, there have been about a hundred books written on what Dumbledore knew, how he knew it or why he did what he did. But what’s undoubtedly true – what he did – he needs to do – and I’m not going to risk messing with it.
Is this a comment on twenty million badfics about not-caring, secretive, manipulative, evil Dumbledore and Harry taking revenge on him and setting things right?
So it's coming up to Hallow's Eve in their time as well as ours
. So we got a definite date again. Albus may have spent nearly two months in Gryffindor (and for this whole time Hermione never checked whether the Time-Turner was still hidden in her bookcase), but Voldemort Day in timeline three cannot have been later than October, 29th, depending on how much time passed since Scorpius returned from that timeline.


(*)New thought:
Since Draco apparently doesn't remember Bellatrix's daughter, "born in Malfoy Manor" is a lie (but Delphi may not know that). Actually Delphi was born in a secret place (after a secret pregnancy that fits best into HBP) and given to Euphemia Rowle very early. (Rodolphus Lestrange may have stayed with her when he wasn't on Death Eater duty; we didn't ever see him anywhere.) Regular payment was arranged with Gringotts. The goblins would pay as long as there was enough gold in the vault, so no other family members needed to be involved. A Fidelius Charm was cast on something like "Bellatrix Lestrange has a child who is raised by Euphemia Rowle", so nobody could find that out. The Fidelius Charm broke when Delphi  was no longer raised by Euphemia Rowle because she was grown up (or when she ran away with Rodolphus the Secret Keeper, the only person who could tell her about her mother before the Fidelius Charm broke). There is still the problem of the magic quill and the magic book that list's everybody who should be invited to Hogwarts. Was Delphi in it? Under which name?  The person who writes the Hogwarts letters may have seen "Delphini Lestrange", but couldn't make the connection to Bellatrix Lestrange, because this would have meant finding out the secret in a way other than being told by the Secret Keeper.

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Re: Harry Potter and the Cursed Child (replies will contain SPOILERS)

Post  Lady Arabella on Mon Sep 05, 2016 12:04 pm

Hieronymus Graubart wrote:
New thought:
Since Draco apparently doesn't remember Bellatrix's daughter, "born in Malfoy Manor" is a lie (but Delphi may not know that). Actually Delphi was born in a secret place (after a secret pregnancy that fits best into HBP) and given to Euphemia Rowle very early. (Rodolphus Lestrange may have stayed with her when he wasn't on Death Eater duty; we didn't ever see him anywhere.) Regular payment was arranged with Gringotts. The goblins would pay as long as there was enough gold in the vault . . . . . . .

That works for me !  Draco says clearly that he didn't know Voldemort had a daughter (don't have my notes at hand to give the scene ) so I really can't see how she could have been born at Malfoy Manor during the DH time frame.  And the goblins don't seem to care whether or not someone is alive/dead/on the run as long as there is gold in the vault.  Sirius' gold paid for Harry's Firebolt while Sirius was a wanted criminal - the goblins made no effort to turn him in or report he was drawing gold from his vault.

Yes, why didn't Draco tell Harry about his Time Turner earlier?

All good points about Delphi and her reliance on the prophesy and two bumbling, teen-aged boys.

Verity - love the missing dialogue!

Once the Time Turning starts, I am terribly confused about which scene is in which timeline.  I may have to do a Hermione and make a color-coded chart.    (But which may require me to actually buy the book . . . . which seems like a waste of money. ) And some of the confusion may be due to the play format and what can be accomplished or suggested onstage with scene changes.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Cursed Child (replies will contain SPOILERS)

Post  Verity Weasley on Tue Sep 06, 2016 5:52 am

Yes, how do they get to Godric's Hollow in less than a day without using magic and with no Muggle money? And how is it almost Halloween in the present time (with Harry et al) as well as in the past (with Albus and Scorpius)? The whole issue of time passing just makes no sense in this play at all, without even factoring in the time travel confusion.

We have time slowing down - so Albus can get the Gillyweed and send an owl to Delphi, and now we have time speeding up - so two months have passed since the boys first jumped off the train. But everything that's happened seems to have just been in the space of a few days. It seems as though the only logical place for the missing months to be are in the second timeline when Albus was in Gryffindor, Rose and Hugo didn't exist, and Albus was banned from seeing Scorpius. However, that seems unlikely. Perhaps we could believe that Albus was self-absorbed enough to not be concerned about putting things right, but it's unlikely Delphi would leave things that long before pressing them to get on with the plan.

Perhaps it's the case that as Croaker warned, time itself has been disturbed by the time travel episodes. As in the case of the Madam Mintumble affair:


‘Finally, there were alarming signs, during the days following Madam Mintumble’s recovery, that time itself had been disturbed by such a serious breach of its laws. Tuesday following her reappearance lasted two and a half full days, whereas Thursday shot by in the space of four hours.


Incidentally, that [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] is now back on Pottermore.

HG your fidelius charm explanations make sense. It's not something I had a big issue with, for many of the reasons you articulate. There are also so many other things to have an issue with!  

Like the most annoying line in the whole play from Scorpius: "Oh my, that’s her. Wow. Squeak. My geekness is a-quivering."

And further evidence of Albus's incredible selfishness:


ALBUS: This is Godric’s Hollow?
SCORPIUS: Your dad’s never taken you?
ALBUS: No, he tried to a few times but I refused.


and


ALBUS: You know what annoys me most of all? Dad will think we did it deliberately.

Even Scorpius calls him out on that one.


Hieronymus wrote:Ah, Dumbledore has a portrait in Harry’s office.

Not necessarily. Dumbledore just needs to have a portrait somewhere in the Ministry. He could then visit whatever painting was hanging in Harry's office. Harry seemed surprised to see him, so I would assume he wasn't usually in that frame. However, what exactly was the point of the conversation between Harry and Dumbledore's portrait?

On the plus side, we also have one of the funniest lines in these few scenes:


SCORPIUS: We send a memory – like a Pensieve – stand over him and send a message, hope he reaches for the memory at exactly the right moment. I mean, it’s unlikely, but... stand over the baby – and just repeatedly shout HELP. HELP. HELP. I mean, it might traumatise the baby slightly.
  lol!

What's the point of telling us that Delphi was 'born in Malfoy Manor' if it's a lie? If readers or spectators have to create their own alternative scenario to explain away the information that is given in the text, then there's a problem. This is one of the biggest plot holes in the entire play.  


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Born at Malfoy Manor

Post  Hieronymus Graubart on Tue Sep 06, 2016 8:00 am

Verity Weasley wrote:What's the point of telling us that Delphi was 'born in Malfoy Manor' if it's a lie?
The point is that Delphi can plausibly believe that she is Voldemort's daughter because somebody told her that she was born in Malfoy Manor and the history books confirm that Malfoy Manor was Voldemort's headquarters at the time. Unlike us, Delphi (and a less inquisitive part of the audience) probably doesn’t think much about how this could have been kept secret, so lying about that detail may have been easier than trying to explain the complex details and risking that Delphi wouldn’t believe a word of it.

Also, I may have gotten this wrong. "Born in Malfoy Manor" may actually be true if it happened while Draco was at Hogwarts, visibly pregnant Bellatrix was conveniently absent when Draco went home for holidays, and nobody wrote to him about her pregnancy. Do we even know whether Draco went home during HBP? He may have been so desperate that he stayed at Hogwarts to work on the vanishing cabinet.
Verity Weasley wrote:If readers or spectators have to create their own alternative scenario to explain away the information that is given in the text, then there's a problem.
Is there? Aren’t we used to hunt for subtle clues and avoid red herrings when we read Rowling’s books?

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Re: Harry Potter and the Cursed Child (replies will contain SPOILERS)

Post  Mona on Tue Sep 06, 2016 8:17 am

Yes, the "traumatize the baby" line totally made up for the "geekness" line.

Verity, I enjoyed your scenario. If you were to write an alternate version of The Cursed Child, I'd totally buy it. I didn't have any problem with the owl to Delphi, though. These are owls, not snail mail, and I'm not sure exactly how long it takes, but if Albus sent a quick note to Delphi just before following Scorpius to the Owlery (I'm assuming his owl was with him in the dorm and not in the owlery), and if Delphi was not too far away and his owl was a good one and she apparated to the Hogwarts gates immediately, well then, there she is, just in time to prevent a premature ending to the story.

Maybe Draco knew that Aunt Bellatrix had a baby just before the Battle of Hogwarts, but thought it was Uncle Rodophus's. As for Voldie and Bella having a baby - Eeeeew!   The imagination boggles most unpleasantly.

Edit: HG, I like your explanation better. I'd forgotten that Draco was in Hogwarts almost the whole time. I wonder why Bella's pregnancy was so hushed up. Wouldn't she have been proud of giving birth to the Dark Lord's heir? Or maybe not - if one is planning to live forever, an heir becomes not only unnecessary but potentially dangerous, and Bella may have suspected that he wouldn't be too pleased about it.

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Re: Harry Potter and the Cursed Child (replies will contain SPOILERS)

Post  Verity Weasley on Tue Sep 06, 2016 9:46 am

Hieronymus wrote:
Verity Weasley wrote:If readers or spectators have to create their own alternative scenario to explain away the information that is given in the text, then there's a problem.

Is there? Aren’t we used to hunt for subtle clues and avoid red herrings when we read Rowling’s books?


There's a difference between hunting for subtle clues and tying yourself in knots to try and come up with a plausible explanation for an evident plot hole.  

Thanks Mona!   I agree, the idea of Bellatrix and Voldemort having the kind of intimate contact necessary to produce a child is just ... wrong. I think if Voldemort was aware he had a child, he would think of some way to use it for his own ends, and I would not count on the child having a long life expectancy.

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Re: Harry Potter and the Cursed Child (replies will contain SPOILERS)

Post  Lady Arabella on Tue Sep 06, 2016 2:04 pm

Mona wrote:I'd forgotten that Draco was in Hogwarts almost the whole time. I wonder why Bella's pregnancy was so hushed up. Wouldn't she have been proud of giving birth to the Dark Lord's heir?

I had also forgotten Draco was at Hogwarts 7th year - for some reason I thought he - as a Death Eater in Training - was at Malfoy Manor.  He certainly was there when the Trio was captured and brought to Malfoy Manor, and Hermione was tortured by Bellatrix.  (Who was not apparently pregnant at that point.)

And I think Bellatrix would certainly be proud to give birth to the Dark Lord's heir - that seems quite in character for her, and she may have been so overwhelmed by the "privilege" she wouldn't think much further. But I don't see her having any maternal instinct or sense whatsoever.  So she might not wonder if Voldie was equally pleased by the event.  But bottom line - Voldemort & Bellatrix together is just wrong on so many levels!

The Time Turner article was interesting!  (Albus and Scorpius should be causing a lot more trouble than they are. )  But if Time Turners are so dangerous and the Department of Mysteries exercises strict control - wouldn't they set up some kind of warning system when ingredients to make Time Turners are purchased or that would detect ripples in time?  Who made the ones owned by Theodore Nott and Lucius Malfoy?  Sigh - Not pertinent to the play but would provide some internal consistency in the story line.

If there had to be the "8th book" about a child of Voldemort's, I could have accepted it more easily if the child had been conceived before Voldemort became "Vapormort."  His "rebirth" didn't seem to make him really human and he came back with a minimal body.  His soul is split into so many parts there is very little still residing in the reborn body.  He seemed unmoved by Bellatrix slavering at his feet,and uninterested in human contact. (And if Voldemort was reborn using Harry's blood, whose blood or DNA does Delphi have?)

Going back several scenes, I liked Scorpius bluntly telling Albus how self-absorbed he is.
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My notes for Scenes IV/6 to IV/11

Post  Hieronymus Graubart on Tue Sep 06, 2016 4:32 pm

(Lady Arabella, according to Draco, Theodore Nott made both Time-Turners, because Lucius wanted to purchase one "gleaming like gold" and Theo built a cheap prototype to test his concept first.)

Fortunately, this mouldy blanket has never been washed in forty years. I guess Petunia just threw it into a dark corner in the basement or the attic, and it was forgotten until Dudley cleared out his parent's house.  It probably has some monogram or such on it, otherwise Dudley wouldn't have known what it was.


They're all on the same team now, and even Ron admits that Draco produced a relatively nice child (that's some progress from the seventh book's epilogue) and got really nice hair.


The big reunion isn't such a big thing. I’m fond of British understatement.


Ginny got it right. Delphi still depends on prophecies telling her what should and shouldn’t be done, so she’s going to tell Voldemort the part of the prophecy he never heard, and she is going to do it at Godric's Hollow because she doesn't know where she could have found him earlier. Unfortunately, no prophecy did tell Delphi that Voldemort might immediately zap everybody who gets into his way and isn't Lily Potter. But then, he didn’t kill this random small boy (DH 17), so she may have a chance.


ALBUS
      Draco, trust my dad. He won’t let us down.
That’s a new quality in these relationships.


I am from the future. The child of Bellatrix Lestrange and you. I was born in Malfoy Manor before the Battle of Hogwarts.
Is it even possible that Bellatrix Lestrange had a child?

There wasn't enough time to become pregnant and give birth between Bellatrix and Rodolphus escaping from Azkaban (in January, OP 25) and the Battle of the DOM in June.

Bellatrix wasn't visibly pregnant at the Battle of the DOM or when she and Narcissa visited Snape during summer (HBP 2), but then we didn't see Bellatrix again for the rest of the book. If Delphi was born near the end of HBP, we wouldn't have noticed. The earliest possible date may be fifteen months before the Battle of Hogwarts, giving us an interesting parallel to Harry, who was born fifteen months before his parents died, too.

Bellatrix wasn't visibly pregnant in the last summer before the Battle of Hogwarts (DH 1). I don't remember whether we have seen her between this scene and the next spring, when Harry, Ron and Hermione were taken to Malfoy Manor (DH 23). Bellatrix wasn't visibly pregnant then, but Delphi may have been born shortly before this event, some weeks before the Battle of Hogwarts.

Whether it's even possible that Voldemort had a daughter, only the Dark Lord knew. Bellatrix may have known, too, but can we be sure that she wouldn't have lied about that? Lying into the Dark Lord's face would have been dangerous, but lying to everybody else with his permission… I have no idea where I'm going here.

Is it possible that Delphi was born in Malfoy Manor? Shouldn't Draco remember that there was a child assumed to be his cousin (and Voldemort's daughter)? Was there a reason to keep this secret from him? Maybe Delphi was actually born and raised in another, secret place, and lies about being born in Malfoy Manor, or just doesn't know better?

Would Delphi lie about her ancestry to get the place at the returned Dark Lord's side? Lying into the Dark Lord's face is dangerous, so she probably believes what she says.

But Delphi cannot have been older than fifteen months when her alleged parents died in the Battle of Hogwarts. How much does she remember of them? How does she even know who her parents are? I can imagine a spiteful person, like Euphemia Rowle was described by Delphi, saying that the Augurey cries because it knows of Delphi's ancestry (described in words I can't repeat here) that will bring her to a sticky end. I can imagine Euphemia Rowle saying this even if it isn't true, and I can imagine a random foster child believing it all and trying to live up to it, to take revenge on Euphemia.  

Actually, Delphi tells us how she knows – if she doesn't lie about that.
It was Rodolphus Lestrange, Bellatrix’s loyal husband, who on return from Azkaban told me who I was and revealed the prophecy he thought I was destined to fulfil.
Bellatrix cheated on Rodolphus with Voldemort and it's totally okay? Rodolphus is still loyal to Voldemort and wants to bring him back, and he believes that Voldemort's daughter is destined to fulfil the prophecy? Where did this prophecy come from, and what does it have to do with Delphi? What happened to Rodolphus? Is he still around? How old and susceptible was Delphi when Rodolphus returned from Azkaban?

Rodolphus Lestrange doesn’t even appear in this play, he was barely mentioned in the books, and he was never set up to be a reliable person. Are we really supposed to believe every word he said?

Maybe Rodolpus lied to Delphi. Knowing that he isn't Dark Lord material, he tried to set his daughter up to be the new Dark Queen, and himself to be her royal advisor, the closest he could get to being the new Dark Lord himself. "You know I'm not really your father, but the Dark Lord's Royal Consort's Official Husband must obviously have been your true father's right hand man – because he wouldn't have given her to anybody else, and she wouldn't have accepted to be given to anybody else – so you better listen to me, girl!"

Maybe Rodolphus didn't believe that the prophecy can be fulfilled, because he had made it up just to keep Delphi interested in getting his advice on how to fulfil it, so that he would be her advisor forever. Of course he would have advised her to gain some power and establish her rule over the wizarding world before she even tried to find some invisible kids willing to murder their fathers, but then Rodolphus died or Delphi just refused to listen to him when she found her own interpretation of the fake prophecy that had specifically been designed to distract her from thinking about more reasonable applications in case she ever found a Time-Turner.

We didn't see Rodolphus at Malfoy Manor, right? Maybe Bellatrix and Rodolphus had this cunning plan B already going during DH; in case Voldemort is defeated by Harry, raise their daughter to be the new Dark Lady, pretending that she is actually Voldemort's daughter. Maybe Rodolphus lied to Delphi about being born in Malfoy Manor, or he didn't say anything about that and Delphi just assumes that she must have been born in Malfoy Manor, because the history books tell that Voldemort and Bellatrix lived there at the time. Maybe Delphi was actually born and raised in a secret place far away from Malfoy Manor, so that nobody would remember to have seen her and the Dark Lord in the same place, and the Dark Lord not treating her like she was his daughter.

On the other hand, the plot doesn't even require that Delphi is Bellatrix's daughter. Maybe on his return from Azkaban Rodolphus found an orphaned parselmouth, raised by a foster mother somehow related to Death Eaters – because these were the people Rodolphus knew – and treated so badly that she happily believed Rodolphus lies. I like this theory even better than "plan B", because it avoids all the complicated secrecy issues.

A man speaking Parseltongue doesn't proof that he is Lord Voldemort (apparently not even that a part of Voldemort resides within him). Are we supposed to believe that a woman speaking Parseltongue must be Voldemort’s daughter? It’s not a common gift, but as far as I remember, nobody claimed that only Slytherin's heirs can do it.

Let's look at the biggest red herring ever: The Augurey. Nobody in timeline three ever talked about Voldemort's daughter. Of course they couldn't, it would have spoiled the surprise. Nobody ever referred to the Augurey by any other name. Of course they couldn't, it would have spoiled the surprise. The dramaturgical reasons are so obvious; I fell for it hook, line and sinker. Only very recently I started to wonder why Delphi would name herself the Augurey, or get an Augurey tattoo and be named after it, if she didn’t grow up with Euphemia Rowle and her Augurey. But why would Euphemia Rowle be allowed to raise and mistreat Bellatrix's daughter if Voldemort won and no Death Eaters were imprisoned after the Battle of Hogwarts? Scorpius fell for a coincidence or two; the third timelines Augurey actually isn't the third timelines version of Delphi and it (do we even know whether it's female?) got the important position for doing something important, not for being assumed to be Voldemort's daughter.  

So, much ado about nothing? Since we totally depend on the tales of unreliable characters, and the plot only depends on Delphi believing that she is Voldemort's daughter, not on this actually being true, "Voldemort and Bellatrix had a daughter" is not more canon than "several bodies were removed from the woods" after the Quidditch World Cup? The latter was at least printed in the Daily Prophet (GF 10); it must be true!
I only wanted to know my father.
I can nearly pity her. If she hadn't needlessly killed Craig Bowker jr...

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Re: Harry Potter and the Cursed Child (replies will contain SPOILERS)

Post  Mona on Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:16 am

Lady Arabella wrote:
And I think Bellatrix would certainly be proud to give birth to the Dark Lord's heir - that seems quite in character for her, and she may have been so overwhelmed by the "privilege" she wouldn't think much further. But I don't see her having any maternal instinct or sense whatsoever.  So she might not wonder if Voldie was equally pleased by the event.

I'm not so sure. If she did have a daughter, and after reading HG's post I'm having doubts about that, I think she may have had her maternal instincts alright. She does have family feelings for her sister in the Spinner's End scene, and does not rat her out to Voldemort. I always thought it humanized her a bit. A very little bit - it is difficult to forget the evil she did to the Longbottoms and others, but compared to Umbridge - but I guess anyone looks good when compared to Umbridge.

Hieronymus Graubart wrote:So, much ado about nothing? Since we totally depend on the tales of unreliable characters, and the plot only depends on Delphi believing that she is Voldemort's daughter, not on this actually being true, "Voldemort and Bellatrix had a daughter" is not more canon than "several bodies were removed from the woods" after the Quidditch World Cup? The latter was at least printed in the Daily Prophet (GF 10); it must be true!

I think this is an excellent theory! If JKR wants to backtrack on this Voldie's child thing, and I hope she does, she certainly has plenty of room to do so.

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Re: Harry Potter and the Cursed Child (replies will contain SPOILERS)

Post  Verity Weasley on Wed Sep 07, 2016 7:37 pm

I too would like to cling to the hope that Delphi is (or has been) deluded and is not really Voldemort's daughter at all. I agree with Mona that the room is there for JKR to wriggle out of it if she chooses.

On another slight tangent, why was Rodolphus released from Azkaban in the first place? Surely his crimes would have warranted a life sentence. We know that Azkaban does not really go in for rehabilitation at all, and that most prisoners are simply driven mad by the continued presence of the dementors, so it doesn't seem likely that you'd then want to release dangerous dark wizards back into society. Under the new regime the Ministry may have made changes to Azkaban, so was Rodolphus supposedly re-educated or somehow rehabilitated before his release?

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Re: Harry Potter and the Cursed Child (replies will contain SPOILERS)

Post  Verity Weasley on Wed Sep 07, 2016 9:10 pm

HG wrote:Fortunately, this mouldy blanket has never been washed in forty years.

Hence the mould, I suppose. But yes, very lucky.

HG wrote:even Ron admits that Draco produced a relatively nice child (that's some progress from the seventh book's epilogue) and got really nice hair.
LOL

I think we have already mentioned the convenient use of polyjuice in the play, but it's worth mentioning again. Albus claims that the one thing he's really good at is polyjuicing. What exactly does he mean by this? He's never made the potion before. Delphi already had that prepared. So all he had to do was drink the potion. It doesn't exactly take a lot of skill. Unless he means he's good at acting convincingly as someone else while disguised with polyjuice potion (like kissing Hermione, ahem). So when Albus suggests polyjuicing, why is the only objection raised the fact that they don't have a piece of Voldemort to add to the potion, not the long and complicated brewing process.

Anyway, then they go on to discuss the transfiguration idea. I'm not sure why everyone is behaving as though it's such a big deal. Transfiguration involves magically changing the appearance, not physically changing into another person. We saw Ron transfigured as a disguise in DH. So why all the angst?

RON: He could get stuck – as Voldemort – forever.
Now what's this about Delphi sending bolts from her hand? She's not Voldemort's daughter after all. She's one of the X-Men! That would explain the hair.

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Re: Harry Potter and the Cursed Child (replies will contain SPOILERS)

Post  Hogwarts Class of 85 on Thu Sep 08, 2016 10:36 am

Hi all - hope you don't mind if I join in on the discussion.  I saw the plays yesterday - have been avoiding the book and the internet until today as I wanted to go into the theatre with no pre-conceptions.  It was a pretty amazing theatrical experience.  Will be interested to go back and read your thoughts as I read through the screenplay.

BTW, I would spoil anything about the production if people would prefer that I don't.....
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Re: Harry Potter and the Cursed Child (replies will contain SPOILERS)

Post  Verity Weasley on Thu Sep 08, 2016 10:45 am

Wow! It's great to have you drop in, HCo85 (your new abbreviated nickname). Yes, please join the discussion. And I don't think anyone will mind if you talk about the production, as the chances of any of us actually seeing it are probably pretty slim. It might help to shed light on some of our questions.

I have to say, I feel like I would enjoy the play if I saw it. I often watch movies that I enjoy in the moment, even while recognising that the plot has some major holes. Talking about it afterwards I will be able to discuss the contradictions or plot issues, but still have enjoyed the spectacle of the whole thing. I think I would feel like that about the play.

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Re: Harry Potter and the Cursed Child (replies will contain SPOILERS)

Post  Mona on Thu Sep 08, 2016 11:11 am

Hogwarts Class of 85 wrote:Hi all - hope you don't mind if I join in on the discussion.  I saw the plays yesterday - have been avoiding the book and the internet until today as I wanted to go into the theatre with no pre-conceptions.  It was a pretty amazing theatrical experience.  Will be interested to go back and read your thoughts as I read through the screenplay.

BTW, I would spoil anything about the production if people would prefer that I don't.....

Wow, lucky duck! Please do tell us all about your theatre experience!

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Re: Harry Potter and the Cursed Child (replies will contain SPOILERS)

Post  Lady Arabella on Thu Sep 08, 2016 1:42 pm

Hogwarts Class of 85 wrote:Hi all - hope you don't mind if I join in on the discussion.  I saw the plays yesterday - have been avoiding the book and the internet until today as I wanted to go into the theatre with no pre-conceptions.  It was a pretty amazing theatrical experience.  Will be interested to go back and read your thoughts as I read through the screenplay.

BTW, I would spoil anything about the production if people would prefer that I don't.....

Jump right in!!  And agreeing with Verity & Mona that I'd love to hear about the production. Unless I learn how to Apparate, I'm not likely to be in London any time soon!

I read the livejournal postings of a HP fanfiction author who saw the play.  She read the script in advance and thought ????? but after seeing the play said that it worked very well - due in great part to the special effects team.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Cursed Child (replies will contain SPOILERS)

Post  Lady Arabella on Thu Sep 08, 2016 2:10 pm

Verity Weasley wrote:

I think we have already mentioned the convenient use of polyjuice in the play, but it's worth mentioning again. Albus claims that the one thing he's really good at is polyjuicing. What exactly does he mean by this?

Yes, I read that and thought there should there should be a special Fanfiction Office for reporting the Abuse of the Use of Polyjuice as a Plot Device.   Did Albus mean he was good at swallowing Polyjuice???  Wow - what a gift!!!!  Color me impressed!!!  And since when is "Polyjuice" a verb?  (Maybe in the 20 years since DH ended some enterprising potioneer has created a stable Polyjuice base you can carry with you "just in case," and all you have to do is pop in the piece of that person you want to become.  But in assuming that, we are creating our own fanfiction.)

And I like Heironymus' explanation of Delphi's origins, which make a lot of sense - but again it feels like we are creating our own fanfiction to try to fill in the plot holes (or plot Grand Canyons, as the case may be).

Perhaps we should write our own play!
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Re: Harry Potter and the Cursed Child (replies will contain SPOILERS)

Post  Hogwarts Class of 85 on Thu Sep 08, 2016 3:30 pm

Thanks everyone

Verity Weasley wrote:I have to say, I feel like I would enjoy the play if I saw it. I often watch movies that I enjoy in the moment, even while recognising that the plot has some major holes. Talking about it afterwards I will be able to discuss the contradictions or plot issues, but still have enjoyed the spectacle of the whole thing. I think I would feel like that about the play.  

I think that you probably would have enjoyed it as well.  To me, it was a bit of a celebration of stagecraft and, in many respects, a celebration of traditional stagecraft.  Many of the effects and illusions are based on techniques that would have been at home in a Victorian Music Hall.  Somehow this made it fit in more with the wizarding world in my mind.   The lighting and costume design were also pretty amazing.  The actors were also very good - especially Scorpius, Harry, Ron, Hermione, Myrtle and Albus.  I think that their performances helped to make up for some deficiencies in the plot.

I also think that the way it would work on stage played a central part in the development of the script - things like using the phone box as mechanism to enter and exit the ministry are used because they had a practical solution to how it would work.

But I must say when I was watching the first act and the time turners came up, I thought that the internet must have exploded after the book came out as I know how many people disliked time travel in PoA.
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My notes for Scenes IV/12 to IV/15 and final thoughts

Post  Hieronymus Graubart on Sat Sep 10, 2016 7:03 am

Voldemort's memories of this event (in DH 17) are not one hundred percent accurate. I like that little detail.


Hagrid takes little Harry away while the Muggle police or fire fighters arrive. Outside the house and off stage, he will meet Sirius Black.


Apparently Rose and Scorpius will be in love eventually. Who didn't expect that? All the people who expected that Albus and Scorpius would be in love, obviously.


So, Harry had still to get mentally rid of Voldemort. That's the explanation we get for the hurting scar, the foreshadowing dreams and the Parseltongue. Well, it may work for me. I guess it's all very deep magic even Dumbledore couldn't have fully explained.

Verity Weasley wrote:On another slight tangent, why was Rodolphus released from Azkaban in the first place? Surely his crimes would have warranted a life sentence. We know that Azkaban does not really go in for rehabilitation at all, and that most prisoners are simply driven mad by the continued presence of the dementors, so it doesn't seem likely that you'd then want to release dangerous dark wizards back into society. Under the new regime the Ministry may have made changes to Azkaban, so was Rodolphus supposedly re-educated or somehow rehabilitated before his release?
I guess after the bad experiences of VW II, Azkaban is no longer guarded by Dementors, and the rehabilitation policy may have been changed. We can expect that some progress occurred in twenty years, especially with Hermione Granger in the Department of Magical Law Enforcement.


Well, I didn't ask for an "eight story". I didn't really need this "eight story" with its circular plot that in the end leaves us where we apparently already had been in the seventh book's epilogue. It didn’t tell me much that I hadn't already got from the novels (it may be different if you only watched the movies or generally need things more spelled out). But it wasn't half as bad as I had expected from some comments I'd seen, and analyzing it was a lot of fun.

Characterizations are sometimes ridiculously off, but that's a problem of the media, playing the differences to the back row; I don’t blame Rowling for it.

Time travel simply doesn’t work, so I can’t expect anybody to do it right.

Delphi's mostly untold back story is a masterpiece of mystery writing, Rowling at her best. And leaving the question whether she's really Voldemort's daughter unanswered is totally okay with me.

But I suspect that Rowling thought the developing character relationships are the most important part of this story, and that’s the reason why a character driven play is the best way to tell it. It could have been done with a different plot, but who wants a quiet intimate play when we can have a great stage spectacle?

So there is probably some deep philosophical and psychological meaning in all this, but I usually don’t get these, or I don’t like to talk about what I got, because I'm not good at this emotions thing and too afraid that I might have got it wrong and will embarrass myself.

Thanks for listening to me and for helping me to get my thoughts straight.


Now that Harry's story is eventually really told to the end, can we please have Hermione Granger and the Interspecies Treaty about Hermione's first steps in her first job? It's far more interesting than Next Generation stories, and Harry doesn’t need to feature; he may be too busy rounding up the last Death Eaters.

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Re: Harry Potter and the Cursed Child (replies will contain SPOILERS)

Post  Verity Weasley on Sat Sep 17, 2016 3:40 am

Hieronymus wrote:Hagrid takes little Harry away while the Muggle police or fire fighters arrive. Outside the house and off stage, he will meet Sirius Black.
I'm not quite sure what the point of that scene was. Did we really need to see Hagrid coming to pick up baby Harry? There are still so many lingering questions about that night, but none of them were answered in this scene. How did Dumbledore know what happened? Why did he send Hagrid instead of going himself? How long was it after Voldemort's attack that Hagrid arrived? We see that he got there before the Muggle police arrived on the scene, but how long would that have taken?

Hieronymus wrote:Apparently Rose and Scorpius will be in love eventually. Who didn't expect that? All the people who expected that Albus and Scorpius would be in love, obviously.
We have discussed this a bit already, but again, what was the point of this scene? I don't think anyone expected a full-on declaration of love between Albus and Scorpius (they're only 14 after all), but why not leave it ambiguous? Why not leave it open to interpretation? I concede that there were a couple of hints earlier on that Scorpius liked Rose, but there were also many more hints that Albus and Scorpius had feelings for each other. Without this scene, or if this scene had a slightly different focus, it would have been left up to the audience (or reader) to make their own interpretation. This way, it's like Jack Thorne is saying, "Don't worry everyone. I know we made it look like Albus and Scorpius were gay, but they're actually really heterosexual. Just wanted to make sure everyone knew that."

Hieronymus wrote:And leaving the question whether she's really Voldemort's daughter unanswered is totally okay with me.
Is it really unanswered though? I would have liked to see a character in the play express some doubt about the validity of her story. As it is, no one in the play actually questions her parentage, it seems like they all just accept it as truth. It is only that the fans have raised the question since the play was released that there seems to be some doubt among the readers/viewers. (Much of which is probably just wishful thinking). If we had seen just one character ask the question, or make a comment about it, that would have added strength to the possibility of Delphi being misinformed. It would have made the doubt canon.

I agree that if we really needed an eighth story, this wasn't it. We end up exactly where we started, just a few years further on.

Now, what's with the pigeons? (closest emoji available)

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