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Mona Thu May 12, 2011 9:55 am
haymoni - Sep 5, 2007 6:40 pm (#1201 of 1326)
Wasn't there something in Lily's letter about Peter looking ill?
And why was that letter at #12 in the first place?
Sirius wasn't living there at the time, was he?
Allison R - Sep 5, 2007 8:18 pm (#1202 of 1326)
haymoni, perhaps number 12 Grimmauld Place was one of the places Siruis stayed while he was on the run after he escaped from Azkaban? He could have hidden some personal posessions somewhere while he was in Azkaban and, once he was out he retrieved them from wherever they were and brought them with him to Grimmauld Place while he was staying there?
(Okay, I have no evidence at all-- I just made it up, but it works for me LOL)
mona amon - Sep 6, 2007 9:39 am (#1203 of 1326)
Works for me too, Allison!
Actually,I thought it was a smart move.Wouldn't DE expect the Potters to select a stronger more capable wizard to be secret keeper? Why would anyone expect them to put their faith in the mousy,cowering underdog? (Madame Pomfrey)
I think it is stupid to do something foolish just because the DEs will not be expecting you to do something foolish. Its all the more foolish when we remember that Dumbledore had warned them that one of their friends was a traitor. When you get a warning like that, its time to take a good look at your friends, and when you see the rat- faced cowering underdog, decide that 'there's no way I'm trusting him with the lives of my wife and son. He's never done anything to us, but what do I know of him, really?'
T Vrana - Sep 6, 2007 10:25 am (#1204 of 1326)
I think James gets a bum rap, because people don't want to make their hero Snape look somehow less in comparison, not because they are viewing the books objectively. - T Proffitt
Uh.........no. (this assumption is rather insulting, BTW)
I really wish Jo had given us a better James. I thought we'd get it in DH, but alas, we got more nasty behaviour on the train, and even Lily thought he was a toerag until he started hiding his bullying. I feel a bit let down because I want to like James.
Joanna Lupin - Sep 6, 2007 11:02 am (#1205 of 1326)
I don't know if you consider trusting your friends foolish, Mona Amon, do you? I certainly don't, and James didn't either. Also, there is that wise proverb 'don't judge the book by it's cover', don't agree with it, I suppose?
I see no reason to judge the swap as foolish, it was genius, or would be if their assumptions were right (I suppose James, like Sirius, suspected Lupin of being a traitor).
Also, I think it's a bit harsh to judge James as a fool for forgetting his wand. It was certainly thoughtless, especially that he had his wand on the sofa beside him, didn't he? The same could be said of Lily, though.
We weren't given a lot of good James moments, but we cannot deny he was an extremely brave and loving man who gave his life to protect his family.
T Vrana - Sep 6, 2007 11:12 am (#1206 of 1326)
I don't know if you consider trusting your friends foolish, Mona Amon, do you?
I'd say stubborn and foolish. When the most powerful Dark Wizard in the WW is hunting you and your family,and you've been told someone close to you is passing him information, you ere on the side of caution. Protecting one's family comes before blindly trusting friends. If he had trusted them but had no warning he was being betrayed I'd cut him more slack, but he had a warning and ignored it. His family, and he, paid the price. He should have taken Dd up on his offer to be Secret Keeper and protected his family.
legolas returns - Sep 6, 2007 11:28 am (#1207 of 1326)
There is something that I dont quite understand/is a bit of an inconsistancy. In DH Mr Weasley and Bill are keepers for their respective houses/families. Why was Lily or James not keeper-Why did they have to choose a friend? If it was one of the Potters then there would not be a story but hopefully you see what I am getting at....
Joanna Lupin - Sep 6, 2007 11:40 am (#1208 of 1326)
Maybe they were taking turns leaving the house and never knew if they'd return? Ok... Lame story...
wynnleaf - Sep 6, 2007 12:16 pm (#1209 of 1326)
legolas returns,
I wonder if this is a continuity error. I've wondered about it as well. Why couldn't James have been his own secret keeper?
Otherwise, I completely agree with T Vrana. Trusting ones friends is very important. But in a war situation, when you know you and your family are targets, and you get a legitimate warning from the head of the Order that there may be a friend giving info to Voldemort, you don't risk your family in favor of trusting your friends. James did. And he and Lily died because of it.
Obviously, it was a foolish decision.
As regards being caught without his wand. I can't recall seeing any posts saying that James was foolish to not have his wand. He should have probably carried it at all times knowing that they were targets of Voldemort and having been given the warning that a friend might betray them. But still, it's a mistake anyone could make. The important thing here is that JKR chose to have James die without the big heroic fight scene, when she could easily have written the story to give us that. In reality, neither is probably more heroic. But as a piece of literature, dying with your weapon in hand is the more herioc ideal. JKR didn't write James with that sort of herioc ending. He could almost as easily have been the "innocent bystander." His death was tragic, but not herioc. He was brave, yes, but he wasn't given the literary version of a hero's death.
The Artful Dodger - Sep 6, 2007 5:03 pm (#1210 of 1326)
And we're told that James wouldn't have killed Pettigrew. He wouldn't have held an unarmed, cowering, pleading man who had never been taken before authorities, and killed him in cold blood in front of 3 thirteen year old kids. Well, that's a good thing, but not something in my book that's indicative of any unusual degree of nobility. (wynnleaf)
But that doesn't seem to be the impression JKR intended. Dumbledore says that James would have done the same as Harry, and in Dumbledore's book, Harry's act is "a very noble thing". (I hope this is correct, I haven't got my books with me to check.)
JKR told us everything she wanted us to know about James. He grew up to join the Order and fight Voldemort. That's a good thing. Mundungus did the same. (wynnleaf)
Snape also was an Order member. Is he to be compared with Mundungus, too? He gets admiration mostly because of his tireless work to thwart Voldemort. Other than amount of pages and antipathy, (let's be honest), I can't see why this is denied to James. He faced Voldemort three times, even with a wand, I suppose ;-), which is a good thing that shouldn't be diminished.
But I can't deny that I have a problem with James, too. The main reason for this is that most (or even all?) characters who have to say good things about James, the adult, also have a soft spot for the boy, who was, indisputably, a despicable fellow. I guess this has plot reasons in part, but that doesn't make appreciating James easier.
NFla Barbara - Sep 6, 2007 5:24 pm (#1211 of 1326)
wynnleaf, maybe it wasn't on this thread...we keep coming up to the same issues in different places...but the word foolish has been used a few times with respect to James. I think it's too harsh. The way the secret keeper works and is chosen is still a bit obscure to me, but it is completely consistent with what little we know about James that he trusted his friends. In a way it was his tragic flaw. Sirius says at the end of PoA that they would have all died for each other, even though by then the seeds of suspicion had been sown (they knew there might be a spy, but Sirius suspected Lupin and Lupin suspected Sirius).
As far as choosing family over friends goes, from what we have been told, they WERE each others' family. This is one of the ways the Marauders loosely parallel HRH -- Harry has no family, Hermione is an only child, and they both end up being enfolded into the Weasleys. But I think by the end of DH the three of them are really family to each other. Would we say Harry was foolish to trust Ron, even though Ron weakened and ran away at one point? I don't think so, but that's because we know in hindsight how things turned out. James the spoiled only child, Sirius the family outcast, and Remus the social outcast were each others' family (Sirius got enfolded into the Potters after being kicked out of his own house).
We also have to keep in mind, I think, that Sirius was behind the choice of Peter as secret-keeper, not just James. James trusted Sirius, and that choice turned out to be well founded...Sirius was extremely loyal.
We don't really know what Lily thought of all this. We have her letter in DH saying that Peter seemed "down" on his last visit. The letter to Sirius is itself extremely trusting.
T Vrana - Sep 6, 2007 5:35 pm (#1212 of 1326)
Sirius says at the end of PoA that they would have all died for each other
Which is fine....but James risked his family after being told someone near him was betraying him. He didn't have to abandon his friends, his 'other' family. All he had to do was make Dd Secret Keeper. I still contend it was foolish to ignore the warning.
Thom Matheson - Sep 6, 2007 9:40 pm (#1213 of 1326)
What are you guys talking about? Everyone knows the Potters died in a car crash.
Joanna Lupin - Sep 7, 2007 2:39 am (#1214 of 1326)
Those drunk drivers LOL
Anyway, back in time, I've re-read HP and SS yesterday and I came upon several inconsistencies (probably?). First is when Quirrelmort taunts Harry about his parents, he says "Your parents were brave... Your father put up a courageous fight..." (quote from memory). And now it comes to this - did Voldemort lie or did JKR originally had a different plan about what happened at GH?
Now, I had more but I can't remember!
mona amon - Sep 7, 2007 4:06 am (#1215 of 1326)
I don't know if you consider trusting your friends foolish, Mona Amon, do you? I certainly don't, and James didn't either. Also, there is that wise proverb 'don't judge the book by it's cover', don't agree with it, I suppose? (Joanna Lupin)
Well, if I had friends like wormtail I'd certainly consider it foolish. 'Trust' is not automatically a virtue. It has to be tempered with good judgement.
And no, I certainly do not agree with the proverb, which I do not think very wise. When judging people, how their outward appearance strikes you is very important. It is really your gut instinct about the person, and it is usually a good idea to trust it. I'd never trust the lives of my family to someone who reminded me of a rat.
Joanna Lupin - Sep 7, 2007 4:17 am (#1216 of 1326)
Not a straight quote, but in GOF DD said something along the lines of "Voldemort's greatest strenght is in sewing distrust and enmity, so we should reply in equal measure with trust and friendship."
Look at the situation at the Ministry in DH when you didn't know who to trust. Distrust and enmity weaken resistance.
mona amon - Sep 7, 2007 4:50 am (#1217 of 1326)
And look at what happened to the Potters when they trusted Wormtail.
Joanna Lupin - Sep 7, 2007 5:10 am (#1218 of 1326)
They didn't. They trusted Sirius, who, like most of the WW, distrusted werewolf Lupin, to his cost.
wynnleaf - Sep 7, 2007 5:33 am (#1219 of 1326)
Sure, James trusted Sirius, but it's not like he had no idea who the Secret Keeper was. If your good friend suggests you do something you believe is unwise, what do you do? Especially when the life of your wife and child is on the line? You do what your friend suggests? Just because you want to show your trust? That's ridiculous. Many adolescents get into trouble every day because they want to do what their good friends suggest. Better to keep their friend and do something against their own instincts -- with resulting terrible consequences. No. Absolutely not. You trust your instincts.
But James and Lily were very young, just out of their teens. Not really surprising that they'd make such a typical adolescent mistake.
NFla Barbara - Sep 7, 2007 5:50 am (#1220 of 1326)
It's adding to the story to say that James knew or should have known that Peter would betray them. Everything we know about Peter, we know in hindsight. That includes his appearance, which has become even more rat-like during his years of masquerading as Scabbers. He was the last person Sirius and Remus would have suspected, and probably James as well.
I don't think "trusting your friends is foolish" is the message the books are conveying. If Peter had had more faith in his friends, perhaps he would not have betrayed them himself.
JoannaLupin, it's certainly possible that JKR changed her mind about how James died, but I think Quirrell's statement can be reconciled with what we see when James is killed. She may have denied him the chance to go out with a wand in his hand, but he died charging straight at LV, which I think is very courageous. My own opinion is similar to one that has been expressed already, and I'm sorry I can't remember who said it at the moment, that she made James & Lily vulnerable at the end (no wands, no use of defensive magic) to emphasize that it was really all about Harry at that point, and they were acting like his very human parents.
wynnleaf - Sep 7, 2007 6:44 am (#1221 of 1326)
It's a mistake to think that James and Sirius were absolutely totally into the trusting your friends thing. After all, they had decided that they didn't trust Lupin, right? Sirius even said so.
Dumbledore had given James a warning that someone close to them could be betraying them. James knew that LV was getting info about them that seemed likely to be coming from someone close. DD offered to be James' Secret Keeper. James decided instead to have a friend be the secret keeper, even though he knew that a friend might be betraying them and that the lives of his family were at stake.
In my opinion, what James basically did was put the notion of trust in his friends above the safety of his family. On the other hand, James' trust in his friends was not complete, because we know he didn't trust Lupin.
James trust in Sirius' commitment to him would certainly not have been a mistake, because Sirius was a true friend. But James' trust in Sirius' judgment was obviously misplaced. He either agreed with Sirius, in which case they were both badly misjudging Peter, or he agreed to have Peter as the Secret Keeper purely on Sirius' judgment. We know from comments of others and from other incidents in the books that Sirius was prone to rather rash decisions. But James was his good friend and presumably had gone along Sirius' rash decisions in the past. So perhaps he wasn't a good judge of Sirius' decision making ability.
All in all, I'd say it's a bad decision to trust your friends judgment over your own instincts. And it's a bad decision to place your relationship with your friends over the safety of one's family. I don't think that equates to a message of "don't trust your friends," but there are times when even trust in friends can become reckless.
By the way, we see that Snape's associations with people who became Death Eaters led to his own mistakes. We all agree that it was wrong of him to have those associations. Surely Snape shouldn't have trusted his friends, right?
One of James friends turned out to be the same type of friend as many of Snape's friends. Shouldn't James have recognized that Peter was a bad sort? Just as Snape is in the wrong for having the wrong friends, isn't James in the wrong for having Peter as a friend? Peter became a Death Eater, too, after all.
Luna Logic - Sep 7, 2007 10:49 am (#1222 of 1326)
I think also that the fact Lily, James and Sirius didn't trust Lupin is a very important element. From the first moment I knew of that fact, I didn't like it. Yes they knew there was a spy among their close relations, but why suspect Lupin? Didn't they knew each other better than that? IMO it is somewhere in contradiction with the whole "creating animagus to be with Remus" thing.
NFla Barbara - Sep 7, 2007 11:08 am (#1223 of 1326)
One of James friends turned out to be the same type of friend as many of Snape's friends. Shouldn't James have recognized that Peter was a bad sort? Just as Snape is in the wrong for having the wrong friends, isn't James in the wrong for having Peter as a friend? Peter became a Death Eater, too, after all.
Snape was in the wrong because his friends were openly going down a path that lead to LV. All James could have had was a suspicion. It's not the same. Again, we are applying too much hindsight to decisions these characters made when they were very young, in my opinion.
Regarding not trusting Lupin...I think there is an underlying theme throughout the books of the distrust and fear the WW feels for any "different" creatures and the discrimination imposed on them, which is of course ironic, given that the WW itself went into hiding centuries ago. To me, the distrust of Lupin indicates that there was some deep-seated fear of him, even though, consciously, the other Marauders had embraced him as a friend. LV would have been good at exploiting that kind of difference to sow discord among people. Look at Ron and how long it took him to take elves seriously - not because he was evil, but because he grew up with certain attitudes that had never been challenged.
I still think James was basically good, despite his misdeeds at school, and that he and Lily would not have ended up married if he didn't eventually give up some of his more arrogant behavior. The comments made about him by others show that he was extremely loyal, including loyal to DD. Good people loved him - people may have been "charmed" or "hoodwinked" by Tom Riddle but never loved him. We learn about his flaws because Harry has to learn about them, but I don't think Harry is supposed to think his father was only his flaws, and so neither should we.
wynnleaf - Sep 7, 2007 11:39 am (#1224 of 1326)
Actually, I'd never thought about it before, but in my opinion it really is a consideration that James had Peter as a friend. Sure, Peter wasn't obviously out doing Dark Arts and he wasn't in Slytherin or saying he was going to join LV. But is that the only way James knew how to judge anyone? (It may have been, given that he judged so quickly just based on House.) Apparently, James only judged by the outward obvious banners of being in the "wrong" house, doing an obviously Dark Magic spell, or saying you wanted to join a Dark Lord. Just being a nasty person didn't so much matter. Similarly, without doing anything at all, a kid on the train who just mentions wanting to join Slytherin was automatically the wrong sort. James even said of Sirius, when he mentioned that his family had been in Slytherin, that James had thought he was alright up to that point.
It seems to me that we get a picture of James not judging people on true character, but only on outward obvious associations.
I am struck by Snape's comment to Lily asking what was the real difference between a dark magic joke, versus all the stuff that the Marauders did. Lily didn't seem to see the comparison Snape was making. I think I do.
James and his other friends couldn't distinguish what was wrong with Peter because they were so blinded by their labels. Peter was a Gryffindor and therefore okay. He wasn't doing dark magic and hadn't made any claims about joining LV, so they couldn't see that in fact he was just the sort of person to join Voldemort, do Dark Arts, and betray them all. It seems to me obvious in the Worst Memory scene that Peter is the slimy sort who get a visceral high from watching other people hurt and humiliated. But James and the rest of his friends couldn't see it.
In part, it might be because they themselves assumed that their "pranks" regardless how harmful (almost getting another student killed) or humiliating, couldn't possibly be really bad, because they didn't belong to Slytherin, they weren't doing Dark Magic, and they hadn't said they wanted to join LV.
They seem to me the types to live by labels. If you've got the right label, you're okay. If you don't have the Evil label, you couldn't be too bad. If you're under the wrong label (like Slytherin), they don't have to know anything else about you -- you're the wrong sort.
As for them, they don't see anything much wrong with their own behavior, other than as just boyish pranking, because they only interpret something as truly bad if it's got one of the Bad labels on it.
Luna Logic - Sep 8, 2007 12:59 am (#1225 of 1326)
Edited by Sep 8, 2007 1:04 am
I think Wynnleaf proposition of the "labelling" is a very god one for James an Sirius characters. I wonder how Lily could not see through this... or make them change - because we don't see her labelling people. She seems to judge people after facts. So my new question is:
Why did Lily did like and trust Peter?
But I will answer first to Madame Pomfrey post #747 in the Severus Snape thread:
Madame Pomfrey: How do we know he was not a true friend though?In Snapes worst memory, I had the impression that Peter idolized his friends,particularl;y James. I have seen no indication that Peter, prior to his betrayal,was a bad or untrustworthy person. I admit that I have only read PoA twice and it has been years since the read so I could have missed something said about his character . Did he say or do something that James should have been suspicious of?
I think you give the answer when you refer to Peter idolising James!("idolatry" source: J Rowling's choices of words in the Worst memory scene)
IMO: James - after maturing - and after being advertised of the existence a traitor - should have been suspicious of the sort of friendship Peter was offering. Idolatry is not loyalty, leads not to loyalty. The person who idolises someone doesn't really love her, but loves only a bright image, and she can find another idol someday (as it happened for Peter with Voldemort).
James appears there as lacking of some maturity in the evaluation of friends - as some have said, it is one of his flaws. And Wynnleaf's labelling" explanation could be added to James's acceptation of being idolised.
Madame Pomfrey Was the fidelius charm cast before Peter turned traitor?
I think Peter is said to have been a traitor for a year before the attack- but the fidelius charm was cast a week before it.
Madame Pomfrey: I wonder if Bathilda's news of Dumbledore's association with Grindelwald had anything to do with their decision? Lily did say in her letter that she didn't know how much to believe? Dumbledore told them that there was someone close to them passing info.Dumbledore also offered to be secret keeper.Could they have possibly been a little suspicious of Dumbledore after hearing what Bathilda (a historian) had to say? Hmm. Well.. They did start to mistrust Lupin so they at least took to heart what Dumbledore said about someone close passing info.
Yes I think they trusted Dumbledore. They didn't suspect him of treason. And Dumbledore was the only wizard that Voldemort was fearing. So their choice was not wise IMO. (but we wouldn't have a story, I agree...)
Their is another problem with the time line and the letter.
Sirius, James and Lily were very close and trusting friends. Sirius was Harry godfather. How could Lily have thanked Sirius for his birthday present three months after the present? (birthday: July 31; letter: some days before October 31)
All that is reinforcing my new question: Why did Lily did like and trust Peter?
Anna L. Black - Sep 8, 2007 10:58 am (#1226 of 1326)
I just wanted to point out that (as far as I remember) we're never told that James and/or Lily didn't trust Lupin - only that Sirius thought that he was the spy (That's what he says in the Shrieking Shack). Now, it doesn't necessarily mean that James and Lily did trust Lupin, but that is a possibility.
Madame Pomfrey - Sep 8, 2007 3:15 pm (#1227 of 1326)
Thats what I meant,Anna.Wrong wording.
I would really like to know if Peter went to DE/Voldemort or if they approached him? Was he threatened or promised rewards? Did he volunteer to be secret keeper?I still do not see why the sorting hat placed him in Gryffindor if he has such Slytherin characteristics.
As for James, He hated the dark arts.Of course he judged those in Slytherin. He wasn't wrong about them either! The one prank that could have been deadly was played out by Sirius and was righted by James.
Yes,they were blinded by Peter's faults.Gryffindor was their family while in school.He was selected for their house,naturally they were not looking for faults.He was supposed to have some of the same characteristics as they did daring,nerve and chivalry.
I always pictured the Hogwarts kids' jinxing each other a kind of normal thing for adolescent wizards.We see it all the time.I read James' hexing people"just because he can" to mean not that he had a mean streak but because he was an arrogant show off who could cast spells maybe other students couldn't do yet.
Chemyst - Sep 9, 2007 11:03 am (#1228 of 1326)
Why did Lily did like and trust Peter? ~ Luna Logic
I am not sure how much this applies to Lily because we haven't been given this sort of detail in canon, but your question immediately reminded me of a friend I had in college. For most of the two years we were in school together, she was dating the guy who eventually became her husband. The main weakness in our friendship, and probably the chief reason it did not last after college was that whatever 'he' liked, that would become her favorite too. She changed her favorite color, food choices, furniture style preference . . . if he had not approved of me, I sometimes wondered if she would have dropped me too. Generally, Lily seems stronger than that; she defended Snape for quite awhile. But love causes people to do some uncharacteristic things and she may have been worn out with justifying Snape to her friends and didn't want to put James in the position of having to justify Peter to her. Anyway, my point is, it is possible that Lily liked Peter for James' sake. Just as we find so many characters trusting Snape because Dumbledore did, Lily may have trusted Peter because James did.
How could Lily have thanked Sirius for his birthday present three months after the present?
I think she probably thanked him a little over a month after the birthday – that gives Harry a few weeks to learn to fly, break the vase and scare the cat, and another week to get the film developed & owled to Sirius. I think the extra time is accounted for by DD being so intrigued by the cloak that he kept it for a long time and was a bit wistful at the thought of returning it. Dumbledore could have borrowed the cloak in August; told the Potters he was busy with the start of a new term and needs more time; Lily writes the note shortly after that. They were keeping a low profile when she sent it, but they were still having visitors, so I don't think we can know for 100% if they had "upgraded" to the full fidelius charm yet.
I would really like to know if Peter went to DE/Voldemort or if they approached him? ~ Madame Pomfrey
I don't want to guess about your other questions, (if he threatened or promised rewards? Did he volunteer to be secret keeper?) but I think there is enough general information on Voldemort to know that he would be looking to exploit weaknesses. And Peter seems too wishy-washy to initiate such a bold move as going to LV. I think the safe bet is that Voldemort approached Peter first.
Mrs Brisbee - Sep 12, 2007 8:36 pm (#1229 of 1326)
I am not sure how much this applies to Lily because we haven't been given this sort of detail in canon, but your question immediately reminded me of a friend I had in college. For most of the two years we were in school together, she was dating the guy who eventually became her husband. The main weakness in our friendship, and probably the chief reason it did not last after college was that whatever 'he' liked, that would become her favorite too. She changed her favorite color, food choices, furniture style preference . . . if he had not approved of me, I sometimes wondered if she would have dropped me too. Generally, Lily seems stronger than that; she defended Snape for quite awhile. But love causes people to do some uncharacteristic things and she may have been worn out with justifying Snape to her friends and didn't want to put James in the position of having to justify Peter to her. Anyway, my point is, it is possible that Lily liked Peter for James' sake. Just as we find so many characters trusting Snape because Dumbledore did, Lily may have trusted Peter because James did.-- Chemyst
Child Lily didn't strike me as a doormat, but I sometimes wonder about Adult Lily.... Anyway, I think Chemyst is on to something. Lily may have simply trusted James's assessment of his friends-- putting much more trust in his judgment than she did in her own about her own friends because of the way her friendship with Snape turned out. This might explain why she didn't trust any of her other friends with Godmother and Secret Keeping duties, too, and why Sirius became her best friend as well as James's. Perhaps she just didn't quite trust her own judgment on friends anymore in a world where you really needed to trust your friends with your life on a daily basis.
Lily began school at about the same time that Voldemort and his followers moved into the open and the first war began. I have to wonder what it was like at Hogwarts back then. Was the atmosphere the same as it was in HBP, with murders and disappearances, the threat of attacking werewolves and giants, and people being Imperiused into doing terrible things? And Lily knows her former best friend was working toward joining forces with those responsible, the Death Eaters. I suppose that would make her a bit skitterish.
About using Dumbledore for Secret Keeper, I can think of lots of good reasons not to. Madame Pomfrey made an interesting point about Lily saying in her letter that she didn't know what to think. I don't think Lily held knowing Grindelwald against Dumbledore, but Dumbledore was a secretive guy with his own agenda. Just because he might have "The Greater Good" in mind with his plans doesn't necessarily mean he will have the good of the individual in mind, and Lily and James may have recognized this. Dumbledore was a busy man, and there was the small matter of the unreturned cloak, which would suggest that Dumbledore wouldn't be available in a timely fashion if the Potters needed their Secret Keeper (Sirius could be easily reached by magic mirror). Dumbledore also tended to treat people like children who needed him to make the important decisions for them, which might have made them lean more toward someone who would treat them as equals. I can see why Dumbledore wouldn't be the automatic man-of-choice for the Potters.
Esmeralda 'Granny' Weatherwax - Sep 13, 2007 5:15 am (#1230 of 1326)
Mrs Brisbee: Dumbledore also tended to treat people like children who needed him to make the important decisions for them
Hmm... what gave you this impression ? Please argument this with some examples from the books.
Mrs Brisbee - Sep 13, 2007 7:13 am (#1231 of 1326)
Hmm... what gave you this impression ?
Things like Dumbledore's treatment of Trelawney; he doesn't tell her that she needs to stay in the castle because she is in danger. Even if she is ditzy she is a grown-up and it's her life. Dumbledore's treatment of Sirius, who is Harry's godfather, over matters concerning Harry, especially Occlumency where Sirius is simply delivered a letter informing him how it's going to be. Dumbledore's inability to assign and train a new General for the resistance to take over when he died; instead, Dumbledore leaves the resistance fractured, and he tries to manage his plot from beyond the grave by controlling Snape via his portrait. Things like that make me think that Dumbledore didn't think other people were capable of dealing with intellectual or emotional complexity.
I think that new parents like Lily and James would want to rely on themselves and their friends, who they felt would watch out for them and keep them informed of what was going on. Both Lily and James had lost all their parents at this point, and they themselves were now the parents. I just think the last thing they would want would be some paternalistic Father-substitute controlling their lives at this point.
Esmeralda 'Granny' Weatherwax - Sep 13, 2007 11:12 am (#1232 of 1326)
Well, Mrs Brisbee I’m still not convinced.
I cannot argue about Sirius simply being delivered a letter informing him about Harry’s Occlumency lessons, because I haven’t reread OoP in ages and don’t remember quite a lot of it unfortunately. Yes, maybe he could have told him this in person as well as what he told Snape about the connection between Harry and Voldemort. He didn’t do this, or did he ? I really cannot recall.
As for Dumbledore not training a new “General for the resistance” I always got the impression that Moody was the leader of the Order after DD’s death. Granted, Dumbledore did not personally assign him or anything like that, but I suppose it was sort of natural and normal for the most experienced Auror to assume a leading role of the entire Order. The point I’m trying to make is that Dumbledore could not have simply told Moody: “I’m going to die, but after my death, you’re in charge here.” or anything along those lines, because giving away his certain death would have raised a torrent of questions, objections and general panic. Providing anyone (except Harry) with that information would bring him dangerously close to revealing the whole horcrux and elder wand business, which is something he could not have shared with anyone but Harry (and that he did - about the horcruxes I mean).
Things like that make me think that Dumbledore didn't think other people were capable of dealing with intellectual or emotional complexity. I disagree, Dumbledore shared information with Snape that qualifies as complex, advanced magic. For instance in their conversation in the forest or later in his office. And he certainly believed Harry, Ron and Hermione capable of dealing with emotional complexity, or he would not have left them such a difficult task, involving self-discovery and self-acceptance, as the Horcrux hunt has proven itself to be.
What concerns Lily and James, I tend to agree that they “would want to rely on themselves and their friends, who they felt would watch out for them and keep them informed of what was going on”. Although I’m sure Dumbledore had the same intention of keeping them safe (and informed) and they knew this. I believe it was more because of Dumbledore’s friendship with Grindelwald, the exact nature and outcome of which they were in the dark about, than their belief - as you are suggesting - that Dumbledore was trying to control their lives like an overprotective father, that made them hesitate and name Pettigrew as their Secret Keeper. It is not difficult to imagine the reaction of a dark-arts-loathing James at hearing of this relationship of DD’s with a very evil wizard. It may have given him second thoughts about placing their safety in his hands.
maria cloos - Sep 13, 2007 12:16 pm (#1233 of 1326)
I too agree with those who have noted that trusting Wormtail seems foolish only because hindsight is 20/20. In addition to that, we know for a fact that there was not one person in their circle that even considered Wormtail being the traitor (even through all of the years after the Potters' deaths). I think that should certainly be taken into account.
Also, when you've been friends with someone for a long time you become aware of their faults, but you also become accustomed to them. It would be only too easy not to recognize the signs that your close friend is betraying you. It's just difficult to reconcile because we KNOW what later happened.
wynnleaf - Sep 13, 2007 12:39 pm (#1234 of 1326)
Oh I don't so much blame James and Sirius for not realizing that Peter was betraying them. I blame them for not realizing that he was a horrible person.
He was the sort of person to enjoy watching people hurt and humiliated. He was a coward. He was the kind of person who could kill a young boy for no reason, simply at the orders of his master -- even after years of living peacably with a family of boys for years. He was a liar. He was so much not their friend that he was willing to see them all die or framed and sent to Azkaban.
And they couldn't see it. They'd lived with him 24/7 all through Hogwarts and never saw what sort of person he was becoming. It's one thing to not notice if your good friend is becoming a little lax in his ethics. It's another thing to not notice the degree of evil that Peter was moving toward.
Soul Search - Sep 13, 2007 12:55 pm (#1235 of 1326)
wynnleaf,
Given the character development we have for James and Sirius I can see them not recognizing signs in Peter that he was no longer their friend. What I can't see is Lupin not seeing the true Peter. He has been presented with a little more objectivity than James or Sirius.
Still, Lupin may not have been around the old gang much, so maybe that was it. We have no references for Lupin around the time of Godric's Hollow. Lily mentions Peter dropping by, but not Lupin. Lupin hasn't mentioned Godric's Hollow to Harry at all, has he?
Mrs. Sirius - Sep 21, 2007 12:20 pm (#1236 of 1326)
At heart, Peter is a coward and in search of powerful people to protect him. Cowards may well not let people see their true nature.
When he determined that Voldemort was the major power he certainly wasn't going to broadcast his new views or even behaviors in front of his old friends.
How many times haven't we heard on the news after some horrific crime, "but he was always such a nice boy..."
PeskyPixie - Sep 27, 2007 8:39 am (#1237 of 1326)
Throughout the series we have learned to trust Dumbledore even if he isn't putting all of his secrets in your basket . Thus, I cannot help but be annoyed at James for disregarding Dumbledore's information that someone very close to the Potters had turned spy for Voldemort and was leaking their whereabouts to him. After such a lead from Dumbledore James was arrogant enough to trust his own judgement of his friends? Sirius and Lupin were turned against one another by Pettigrew because they at least had enough faith in Dumbledore to believe that a traitor existed among them.
If James were single I might applaud his unwavering belief in friendship, but not when his baby son is being targetted by the most powerful dark wizard of all time. Even if James did not know of the prophecy, he was certainly aware of the danger Harry was in by the Potters being targetted by Voldemort. As a parent any warning sign that one's child might be in danger should not be taken lightly.
I remember a quote from a film I can't quite place at the moment: 'These are my children, and I will protect them even from myself if I have to.' James didn't.
Mrs Brisbee - Sep 27, 2007 9:02 am (#1238 of 1326)
James seems to have suspected Lupin as well. Lupin was the one left out of the loop, after all. I don't see him as disregarding Dumbledore, but picking the wrong friend to suspect. I don't see it as arrogant to trust one's friends, either-- especially if no one is giving him any hard evidence to judge by. I think it too much to ask that he stop trusting everybody. And it was Lily's judgment too. They both got it wrong together.
I think James and Sirius saw each other as family, and trusted each other as family. By Lupin's and Sirius's actions in the Shrieking Shack I think they also saw Peter's betrayal as a family affair, to be cleaned up by "family". I think Dumbledore would be seen by them as more of an authority figure rather than family, an outsider.
It kind of makes me sad if the only good choice James and Lily could have made was to stop trusting their own judgment, and stop trusting all of their friends. Sort of like Voldemort had already won. Maybe Lily and James needed just more information, or needed to think about it more intelligently. They needed to not second guess Sirius as Secret Keeper.
As an aside, though, the Secret Keeping thing isn't all that secure by the way it's done in DH, is it? If the Secret Keeper is killed then everyone who knew the secret becomes a Secret Keeper, so if there is even one spy they can now blab. Perhaps that is why Sirius thought it so important to switch to someone who would never be suspected of being the Secret Keeper. Why Lily wasn't the Keeper though I don't know. That would seem the most secure arrangement if they were allowed to Secret Keep for themselves.
wynnleaf - Sep 27, 2007 10:00 am (#1239 of 1326)
Why Lily wasn't the Keeper though I don't know. That would seem the most secure arrangement if they were allowed to Secret Keep for themselves.
We learn in DH that James or Lily could have been their own Secret Keeper. I can't help but wonder why they didn't. The only reason I can think of would be so that the Secret Keeper would be a person who could go out and about and be around other people and tell someone else the Secret if need be. With James and Lily in hiding, they couldn't very well pass along the secret to others without resorting to a note, which I suppose could fall into the wrong hands.
Mrs Brisbee - Sep 27, 2007 11:17 am (#1240 of 1326)
The only reason I can think of would be so that the Secret Keeper would be a person who could go out and about and be around other people and tell someone else the Secret if need be.
Yes, I think this must have been a big factor in Lily and James's choice. It may have been an attempt to keep some measure of control over their lives while having to go into hiding for an indefinite amount of time.
wynnleaf - Sep 27, 2007 11:20 am (#1241 of 1326)
I happened to see a comment on another site that got me thinking about James and Lily and the likelihood they'd have died regardless of the prophecy.
If LV had not been mostly destroyed when Harry was a year old, what would have occurred?
The Potters had placed themselves at the front line of the war, both serving as members of the Order and together "defying" Voldemort three times. The Longbottoms were attacked by Death Eaters and crucioed into insanity. Many other Order members were killed. Aurors and just regular wizarding families were attacked and killed with regularity.
A wizarding family made up of a "blood traitor" (James) and a "mudblood" (Lily), who were serving in the dangerous position of Order members and who had already defied Voldemort three times would have always been prime targets by Voldemort or his Death Eaters.
We see that in DH, even knowing that they are being specifically targeted, the Potters don't keep their wands with them at all times. James still wishes he could go out and about with his invisibility cloak. And they still had Peter Pettigrew -- a nasty character willing to serve Voldemort regardless of the prophecy -- in their close circle of friends.
So it seems to me that the Potters would very likely have been killed anyway, especially if the war had continued, as it would have if LV had not been partly destroyed when attempting to kill Harry.
Harry would likely have been orphaned, or ended up in a similar position as Neville with both parents incapable of caring for him. He may even have been killed as well.
And, of course, Voldemort would have continued to wage his war. Given that in Harry's time, Voldemort did take over shortly after Dumbledore died, it seems also likely that Voldemort would have only gained power and risen in his influence if he hadn't been stopped back when Harry was a baby. This would only have increased the likelihood that the Potters would eventually have been killed, as well as many others.
Mrs Brisbee - Sep 27, 2007 12:09 pm (#1242 of 1326)
Wynnleaf, that reminds me of the picture Moody had shown Harry of the original Order, where every other person had suffered a violent death. It is quite likely that both Lily and James would have died fighting for the Order had the Prophecy never been made-- though one or both might have lived. It does sound like a perilous life though, especially if Pettigrew was still a spy for Voldemort. It's sort of an alternate universe what-if. As things turned out, the death of Lily and James lead to a thirteen year respite from war, so their deaths had significant meaning for all of the wizarding world.
mona amon - Sep 28, 2007 4:46 am (#1243 of 1326)
This makes Snape's role crucial. By carrying the prophecy to Voldemort, he was the one who set it into motion. If he had not overheard Sybil's prophecy, there would be no 'chosen one', no one to stop Voldemort.
PeskyPixie - Sep 28, 2007 11:44 am (#1244 of 1326)
I have a lot to say regarding mona's post, however I'll save it for another day on the Snape thread.
James and Lily act as true Gryffindors in their loyalty to their friends. However, they should have been more concerned about the fact that a dark wizard was targeting them and one of their friends kept on leaking information about them to the enemy. Anybody in the magical world would desire Albus Dumbledore's protection in such a situation. Even Snape sought out Dumbledore as his best hope of protecting Lily.
James and Sirius act very true to their natures when they decline Dumbledore's protection and cook up their own scheme. I do consider the Potters' decision as disregarding DD's lead; one of three is a rat (i.e. a traitor, not Peter's animagus form ) who is a danger to their baby, yet they just choose to guess who he is? Sirius would be far more responsible if he would've instead talked James into accepting Dumbledore as secret-keeper, reminding him that no one is to be trusted with his godson's life until the snitch in the Order is discovered. A sad situation, yes, but this is war and the Potters' baby is at the centre of it. Seclusion under Dumbledore's protection until the traitor is caught is not a huge price to pay for the ultimate safety of one's baby.
I feel this way as my best friend and I are as close as James and Sirius; we are family. If she were in James' situation I (as best friend and godmother to her child) would opt for her (and her family's) protection by someone with greater ability than myself, even if that would mean not seeing her for a few years (or ever, if I were to die in the war). Then again, perhaps that is just the Slytherin in me.
I agree that the Fidelius Charm becomes very complicated in DH.
Solitaire - Sep 29, 2007 11:49 am (#1245 of 1326)
If he had not overheard Sybil's prophecy, there would be no 'chosen one', no one to stop Voldemort.
Actually, there still might have been a "Chosen One" that was "marked" by Voldemort ... except he might not have known he was "marking" him. After all, "the One with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord" was still going to be born (unless his mother died before she had a chance to give birth), even if no one but Dumbledore had heard the prophecy. Given the fact that Voldemort had been after James and Lily, as well as Alice and Frank Longbottom, there was still the distinct possibility that Voldemort could have come into contact with and injured either Harry or Neville, "marking" one or the other, even though he was unaware of having done so.
Solitaire
Joanna Lupin - Sep 29, 2007 1:13 pm (#1246 of 1326)
It wouldn't be enough to 'injure'. Voldemort's soul had to fall apart and latch itselt to Harry/Neville. It's unlikely it would happen in any other circumenstances.
Chemyst - Sep 29, 2007 3:30 pm (#1247 of 1326)
My inner Hermione is struggling to get out. . .
from wikipedia ~ "Markedness is a somewhat fuzzy notion. There are few strict criteria to determine which forms are considered more marked and which are not. A marked form is a non-basic or less natural form. An unmarked form is a basic, default form."
Prophecies are somewhat nebulous in their interpretations. Since the prophecy never specified a soul, either latched or detached, then 'marked' could mean almost anything Voldemort would have done that distinguished that person from the ordinary.
Solitaire - Sep 30, 2007 9:47 am (#1248 of 1326)
Well, we know that Voldemort had begun making Horcruxes long before there ever was a prophecy. Lily obviously would have known about the prophecy whether Voldemort knew or not ... so she would have been just as likely to behave in the same way if confronted. And Voldemort would have been just as likely to kill a baby as not, even if he didn't know it was prophesied to be his downfall.
I still think it is possible for it to have eventually happened. The circumstances would certainly be different; but I suspect that, as Harry came of age and entered the Wizarding World, something would have occurred to bring them into contact. Hard to say ...
Solitaire
wynnleaf - Sep 30, 2007 1:25 pm (#1249 of 1326)
Solitaire,
I agree that with the Potters defying LV 3 times, being Order members on the front line of the war, and being a marriage of a blood traitor with a "mudblood," they could easily have been targeted by LV even without the prophecy. And Lily would probably have reacted the same way about protecting Harry.
The big difference would be if Snape -- the linchpin in this plot it seems to me -- didn't know that LV was targeting the Potters, he wouldn't ask LV to spare Lily, giving her the crucial choice of whether or not to give her life to protect her child.
Solitaire - Sep 30, 2007 2:15 pm (#1250 of 1326)
I guess I don't see that as a factor, Wynnleaf. I think Lily would have stepped into the breach in any case, prophecy or no prophecy. If her child were threatened, she would stand between him and danger. JM2K, of course ...
Solitaire
Wasn't there something in Lily's letter about Peter looking ill?
And why was that letter at #12 in the first place?
Sirius wasn't living there at the time, was he?
Allison R - Sep 5, 2007 8:18 pm (#1202 of 1326)
haymoni, perhaps number 12 Grimmauld Place was one of the places Siruis stayed while he was on the run after he escaped from Azkaban? He could have hidden some personal posessions somewhere while he was in Azkaban and, once he was out he retrieved them from wherever they were and brought them with him to Grimmauld Place while he was staying there?
(Okay, I have no evidence at all-- I just made it up, but it works for me LOL)
mona amon - Sep 6, 2007 9:39 am (#1203 of 1326)
Works for me too, Allison!
Actually,I thought it was a smart move.Wouldn't DE expect the Potters to select a stronger more capable wizard to be secret keeper? Why would anyone expect them to put their faith in the mousy,cowering underdog? (Madame Pomfrey)
I think it is stupid to do something foolish just because the DEs will not be expecting you to do something foolish. Its all the more foolish when we remember that Dumbledore had warned them that one of their friends was a traitor. When you get a warning like that, its time to take a good look at your friends, and when you see the rat- faced cowering underdog, decide that 'there's no way I'm trusting him with the lives of my wife and son. He's never done anything to us, but what do I know of him, really?'
T Vrana - Sep 6, 2007 10:25 am (#1204 of 1326)
I think James gets a bum rap, because people don't want to make their hero Snape look somehow less in comparison, not because they are viewing the books objectively. - T Proffitt
Uh.........no. (this assumption is rather insulting, BTW)
I really wish Jo had given us a better James. I thought we'd get it in DH, but alas, we got more nasty behaviour on the train, and even Lily thought he was a toerag until he started hiding his bullying. I feel a bit let down because I want to like James.
Joanna Lupin - Sep 6, 2007 11:02 am (#1205 of 1326)
I don't know if you consider trusting your friends foolish, Mona Amon, do you? I certainly don't, and James didn't either. Also, there is that wise proverb 'don't judge the book by it's cover', don't agree with it, I suppose?
I see no reason to judge the swap as foolish, it was genius, or would be if their assumptions were right (I suppose James, like Sirius, suspected Lupin of being a traitor).
Also, I think it's a bit harsh to judge James as a fool for forgetting his wand. It was certainly thoughtless, especially that he had his wand on the sofa beside him, didn't he? The same could be said of Lily, though.
We weren't given a lot of good James moments, but we cannot deny he was an extremely brave and loving man who gave his life to protect his family.
T Vrana - Sep 6, 2007 11:12 am (#1206 of 1326)
I don't know if you consider trusting your friends foolish, Mona Amon, do you?
I'd say stubborn and foolish. When the most powerful Dark Wizard in the WW is hunting you and your family,and you've been told someone close to you is passing him information, you ere on the side of caution. Protecting one's family comes before blindly trusting friends. If he had trusted them but had no warning he was being betrayed I'd cut him more slack, but he had a warning and ignored it. His family, and he, paid the price. He should have taken Dd up on his offer to be Secret Keeper and protected his family.
legolas returns - Sep 6, 2007 11:28 am (#1207 of 1326)
There is something that I dont quite understand/is a bit of an inconsistancy. In DH Mr Weasley and Bill are keepers for their respective houses/families. Why was Lily or James not keeper-Why did they have to choose a friend? If it was one of the Potters then there would not be a story but hopefully you see what I am getting at....
Joanna Lupin - Sep 6, 2007 11:40 am (#1208 of 1326)
Maybe they were taking turns leaving the house and never knew if they'd return? Ok... Lame story...
wynnleaf - Sep 6, 2007 12:16 pm (#1209 of 1326)
legolas returns,
I wonder if this is a continuity error. I've wondered about it as well. Why couldn't James have been his own secret keeper?
Otherwise, I completely agree with T Vrana. Trusting ones friends is very important. But in a war situation, when you know you and your family are targets, and you get a legitimate warning from the head of the Order that there may be a friend giving info to Voldemort, you don't risk your family in favor of trusting your friends. James did. And he and Lily died because of it.
Obviously, it was a foolish decision.
As regards being caught without his wand. I can't recall seeing any posts saying that James was foolish to not have his wand. He should have probably carried it at all times knowing that they were targets of Voldemort and having been given the warning that a friend might betray them. But still, it's a mistake anyone could make. The important thing here is that JKR chose to have James die without the big heroic fight scene, when she could easily have written the story to give us that. In reality, neither is probably more heroic. But as a piece of literature, dying with your weapon in hand is the more herioc ideal. JKR didn't write James with that sort of herioc ending. He could almost as easily have been the "innocent bystander." His death was tragic, but not herioc. He was brave, yes, but he wasn't given the literary version of a hero's death.
The Artful Dodger - Sep 6, 2007 5:03 pm (#1210 of 1326)
And we're told that James wouldn't have killed Pettigrew. He wouldn't have held an unarmed, cowering, pleading man who had never been taken before authorities, and killed him in cold blood in front of 3 thirteen year old kids. Well, that's a good thing, but not something in my book that's indicative of any unusual degree of nobility. (wynnleaf)
But that doesn't seem to be the impression JKR intended. Dumbledore says that James would have done the same as Harry, and in Dumbledore's book, Harry's act is "a very noble thing". (I hope this is correct, I haven't got my books with me to check.)
JKR told us everything she wanted us to know about James. He grew up to join the Order and fight Voldemort. That's a good thing. Mundungus did the same. (wynnleaf)
Snape also was an Order member. Is he to be compared with Mundungus, too? He gets admiration mostly because of his tireless work to thwart Voldemort. Other than amount of pages and antipathy, (let's be honest), I can't see why this is denied to James. He faced Voldemort three times, even with a wand, I suppose ;-), which is a good thing that shouldn't be diminished.
But I can't deny that I have a problem with James, too. The main reason for this is that most (or even all?) characters who have to say good things about James, the adult, also have a soft spot for the boy, who was, indisputably, a despicable fellow. I guess this has plot reasons in part, but that doesn't make appreciating James easier.
NFla Barbara - Sep 6, 2007 5:24 pm (#1211 of 1326)
wynnleaf, maybe it wasn't on this thread...we keep coming up to the same issues in different places...but the word foolish has been used a few times with respect to James. I think it's too harsh. The way the secret keeper works and is chosen is still a bit obscure to me, but it is completely consistent with what little we know about James that he trusted his friends. In a way it was his tragic flaw. Sirius says at the end of PoA that they would have all died for each other, even though by then the seeds of suspicion had been sown (they knew there might be a spy, but Sirius suspected Lupin and Lupin suspected Sirius).
As far as choosing family over friends goes, from what we have been told, they WERE each others' family. This is one of the ways the Marauders loosely parallel HRH -- Harry has no family, Hermione is an only child, and they both end up being enfolded into the Weasleys. But I think by the end of DH the three of them are really family to each other. Would we say Harry was foolish to trust Ron, even though Ron weakened and ran away at one point? I don't think so, but that's because we know in hindsight how things turned out. James the spoiled only child, Sirius the family outcast, and Remus the social outcast were each others' family (Sirius got enfolded into the Potters after being kicked out of his own house).
We also have to keep in mind, I think, that Sirius was behind the choice of Peter as secret-keeper, not just James. James trusted Sirius, and that choice turned out to be well founded...Sirius was extremely loyal.
We don't really know what Lily thought of all this. We have her letter in DH saying that Peter seemed "down" on his last visit. The letter to Sirius is itself extremely trusting.
T Vrana - Sep 6, 2007 5:35 pm (#1212 of 1326)
Sirius says at the end of PoA that they would have all died for each other
Which is fine....but James risked his family after being told someone near him was betraying him. He didn't have to abandon his friends, his 'other' family. All he had to do was make Dd Secret Keeper. I still contend it was foolish to ignore the warning.
Thom Matheson - Sep 6, 2007 9:40 pm (#1213 of 1326)
What are you guys talking about? Everyone knows the Potters died in a car crash.
Joanna Lupin - Sep 7, 2007 2:39 am (#1214 of 1326)
Those drunk drivers LOL
Anyway, back in time, I've re-read HP and SS yesterday and I came upon several inconsistencies (probably?). First is when Quirrelmort taunts Harry about his parents, he says "Your parents were brave... Your father put up a courageous fight..." (quote from memory). And now it comes to this - did Voldemort lie or did JKR originally had a different plan about what happened at GH?
Now, I had more but I can't remember!
mona amon - Sep 7, 2007 4:06 am (#1215 of 1326)
I don't know if you consider trusting your friends foolish, Mona Amon, do you? I certainly don't, and James didn't either. Also, there is that wise proverb 'don't judge the book by it's cover', don't agree with it, I suppose? (Joanna Lupin)
Well, if I had friends like wormtail I'd certainly consider it foolish. 'Trust' is not automatically a virtue. It has to be tempered with good judgement.
And no, I certainly do not agree with the proverb, which I do not think very wise. When judging people, how their outward appearance strikes you is very important. It is really your gut instinct about the person, and it is usually a good idea to trust it. I'd never trust the lives of my family to someone who reminded me of a rat.
Joanna Lupin - Sep 7, 2007 4:17 am (#1216 of 1326)
Not a straight quote, but in GOF DD said something along the lines of "Voldemort's greatest strenght is in sewing distrust and enmity, so we should reply in equal measure with trust and friendship."
Look at the situation at the Ministry in DH when you didn't know who to trust. Distrust and enmity weaken resistance.
mona amon - Sep 7, 2007 4:50 am (#1217 of 1326)
And look at what happened to the Potters when they trusted Wormtail.
Joanna Lupin - Sep 7, 2007 5:10 am (#1218 of 1326)
They didn't. They trusted Sirius, who, like most of the WW, distrusted werewolf Lupin, to his cost.
wynnleaf - Sep 7, 2007 5:33 am (#1219 of 1326)
Sure, James trusted Sirius, but it's not like he had no idea who the Secret Keeper was. If your good friend suggests you do something you believe is unwise, what do you do? Especially when the life of your wife and child is on the line? You do what your friend suggests? Just because you want to show your trust? That's ridiculous. Many adolescents get into trouble every day because they want to do what their good friends suggest. Better to keep their friend and do something against their own instincts -- with resulting terrible consequences. No. Absolutely not. You trust your instincts.
But James and Lily were very young, just out of their teens. Not really surprising that they'd make such a typical adolescent mistake.
NFla Barbara - Sep 7, 2007 5:50 am (#1220 of 1326)
It's adding to the story to say that James knew or should have known that Peter would betray them. Everything we know about Peter, we know in hindsight. That includes his appearance, which has become even more rat-like during his years of masquerading as Scabbers. He was the last person Sirius and Remus would have suspected, and probably James as well.
I don't think "trusting your friends is foolish" is the message the books are conveying. If Peter had had more faith in his friends, perhaps he would not have betrayed them himself.
JoannaLupin, it's certainly possible that JKR changed her mind about how James died, but I think Quirrell's statement can be reconciled with what we see when James is killed. She may have denied him the chance to go out with a wand in his hand, but he died charging straight at LV, which I think is very courageous. My own opinion is similar to one that has been expressed already, and I'm sorry I can't remember who said it at the moment, that she made James & Lily vulnerable at the end (no wands, no use of defensive magic) to emphasize that it was really all about Harry at that point, and they were acting like his very human parents.
wynnleaf - Sep 7, 2007 6:44 am (#1221 of 1326)
It's a mistake to think that James and Sirius were absolutely totally into the trusting your friends thing. After all, they had decided that they didn't trust Lupin, right? Sirius even said so.
Dumbledore had given James a warning that someone close to them could be betraying them. James knew that LV was getting info about them that seemed likely to be coming from someone close. DD offered to be James' Secret Keeper. James decided instead to have a friend be the secret keeper, even though he knew that a friend might be betraying them and that the lives of his family were at stake.
In my opinion, what James basically did was put the notion of trust in his friends above the safety of his family. On the other hand, James' trust in his friends was not complete, because we know he didn't trust Lupin.
James trust in Sirius' commitment to him would certainly not have been a mistake, because Sirius was a true friend. But James' trust in Sirius' judgment was obviously misplaced. He either agreed with Sirius, in which case they were both badly misjudging Peter, or he agreed to have Peter as the Secret Keeper purely on Sirius' judgment. We know from comments of others and from other incidents in the books that Sirius was prone to rather rash decisions. But James was his good friend and presumably had gone along Sirius' rash decisions in the past. So perhaps he wasn't a good judge of Sirius' decision making ability.
All in all, I'd say it's a bad decision to trust your friends judgment over your own instincts. And it's a bad decision to place your relationship with your friends over the safety of one's family. I don't think that equates to a message of "don't trust your friends," but there are times when even trust in friends can become reckless.
By the way, we see that Snape's associations with people who became Death Eaters led to his own mistakes. We all agree that it was wrong of him to have those associations. Surely Snape shouldn't have trusted his friends, right?
One of James friends turned out to be the same type of friend as many of Snape's friends. Shouldn't James have recognized that Peter was a bad sort? Just as Snape is in the wrong for having the wrong friends, isn't James in the wrong for having Peter as a friend? Peter became a Death Eater, too, after all.
Luna Logic - Sep 7, 2007 10:49 am (#1222 of 1326)
I think also that the fact Lily, James and Sirius didn't trust Lupin is a very important element. From the first moment I knew of that fact, I didn't like it. Yes they knew there was a spy among their close relations, but why suspect Lupin? Didn't they knew each other better than that? IMO it is somewhere in contradiction with the whole "creating animagus to be with Remus" thing.
NFla Barbara - Sep 7, 2007 11:08 am (#1223 of 1326)
One of James friends turned out to be the same type of friend as many of Snape's friends. Shouldn't James have recognized that Peter was a bad sort? Just as Snape is in the wrong for having the wrong friends, isn't James in the wrong for having Peter as a friend? Peter became a Death Eater, too, after all.
Snape was in the wrong because his friends were openly going down a path that lead to LV. All James could have had was a suspicion. It's not the same. Again, we are applying too much hindsight to decisions these characters made when they were very young, in my opinion.
Regarding not trusting Lupin...I think there is an underlying theme throughout the books of the distrust and fear the WW feels for any "different" creatures and the discrimination imposed on them, which is of course ironic, given that the WW itself went into hiding centuries ago. To me, the distrust of Lupin indicates that there was some deep-seated fear of him, even though, consciously, the other Marauders had embraced him as a friend. LV would have been good at exploiting that kind of difference to sow discord among people. Look at Ron and how long it took him to take elves seriously - not because he was evil, but because he grew up with certain attitudes that had never been challenged.
I still think James was basically good, despite his misdeeds at school, and that he and Lily would not have ended up married if he didn't eventually give up some of his more arrogant behavior. The comments made about him by others show that he was extremely loyal, including loyal to DD. Good people loved him - people may have been "charmed" or "hoodwinked" by Tom Riddle but never loved him. We learn about his flaws because Harry has to learn about them, but I don't think Harry is supposed to think his father was only his flaws, and so neither should we.
wynnleaf - Sep 7, 2007 11:39 am (#1224 of 1326)
Actually, I'd never thought about it before, but in my opinion it really is a consideration that James had Peter as a friend. Sure, Peter wasn't obviously out doing Dark Arts and he wasn't in Slytherin or saying he was going to join LV. But is that the only way James knew how to judge anyone? (It may have been, given that he judged so quickly just based on House.) Apparently, James only judged by the outward obvious banners of being in the "wrong" house, doing an obviously Dark Magic spell, or saying you wanted to join a Dark Lord. Just being a nasty person didn't so much matter. Similarly, without doing anything at all, a kid on the train who just mentions wanting to join Slytherin was automatically the wrong sort. James even said of Sirius, when he mentioned that his family had been in Slytherin, that James had thought he was alright up to that point.
It seems to me that we get a picture of James not judging people on true character, but only on outward obvious associations.
I am struck by Snape's comment to Lily asking what was the real difference between a dark magic joke, versus all the stuff that the Marauders did. Lily didn't seem to see the comparison Snape was making. I think I do.
James and his other friends couldn't distinguish what was wrong with Peter because they were so blinded by their labels. Peter was a Gryffindor and therefore okay. He wasn't doing dark magic and hadn't made any claims about joining LV, so they couldn't see that in fact he was just the sort of person to join Voldemort, do Dark Arts, and betray them all. It seems to me obvious in the Worst Memory scene that Peter is the slimy sort who get a visceral high from watching other people hurt and humiliated. But James and the rest of his friends couldn't see it.
In part, it might be because they themselves assumed that their "pranks" regardless how harmful (almost getting another student killed) or humiliating, couldn't possibly be really bad, because they didn't belong to Slytherin, they weren't doing Dark Magic, and they hadn't said they wanted to join LV.
They seem to me the types to live by labels. If you've got the right label, you're okay. If you don't have the Evil label, you couldn't be too bad. If you're under the wrong label (like Slytherin), they don't have to know anything else about you -- you're the wrong sort.
As for them, they don't see anything much wrong with their own behavior, other than as just boyish pranking, because they only interpret something as truly bad if it's got one of the Bad labels on it.
Luna Logic - Sep 8, 2007 12:59 am (#1225 of 1326)
Edited by Sep 8, 2007 1:04 am
I think Wynnleaf proposition of the "labelling" is a very god one for James an Sirius characters. I wonder how Lily could not see through this... or make them change - because we don't see her labelling people. She seems to judge people after facts. So my new question is:
Why did Lily did like and trust Peter?
But I will answer first to Madame Pomfrey post #747 in the Severus Snape thread:
Madame Pomfrey: How do we know he was not a true friend though?In Snapes worst memory, I had the impression that Peter idolized his friends,particularl;y James. I have seen no indication that Peter, prior to his betrayal,was a bad or untrustworthy person. I admit that I have only read PoA twice and it has been years since the read so I could have missed something said about his character . Did he say or do something that James should have been suspicious of?
I think you give the answer when you refer to Peter idolising James!("idolatry" source: J Rowling's choices of words in the Worst memory scene)
IMO: James - after maturing - and after being advertised of the existence a traitor - should have been suspicious of the sort of friendship Peter was offering. Idolatry is not loyalty, leads not to loyalty. The person who idolises someone doesn't really love her, but loves only a bright image, and she can find another idol someday (as it happened for Peter with Voldemort).
James appears there as lacking of some maturity in the evaluation of friends - as some have said, it is one of his flaws. And Wynnleaf's labelling" explanation could be added to James's acceptation of being idolised.
Madame Pomfrey Was the fidelius charm cast before Peter turned traitor?
I think Peter is said to have been a traitor for a year before the attack- but the fidelius charm was cast a week before it.
Madame Pomfrey: I wonder if Bathilda's news of Dumbledore's association with Grindelwald had anything to do with their decision? Lily did say in her letter that she didn't know how much to believe? Dumbledore told them that there was someone close to them passing info.Dumbledore also offered to be secret keeper.Could they have possibly been a little suspicious of Dumbledore after hearing what Bathilda (a historian) had to say? Hmm. Well.. They did start to mistrust Lupin so they at least took to heart what Dumbledore said about someone close passing info.
Yes I think they trusted Dumbledore. They didn't suspect him of treason. And Dumbledore was the only wizard that Voldemort was fearing. So their choice was not wise IMO. (but we wouldn't have a story, I agree...)
Their is another problem with the time line and the letter.
Sirius, James and Lily were very close and trusting friends. Sirius was Harry godfather. How could Lily have thanked Sirius for his birthday present three months after the present? (birthday: July 31; letter: some days before October 31)
All that is reinforcing my new question: Why did Lily did like and trust Peter?
Anna L. Black - Sep 8, 2007 10:58 am (#1226 of 1326)
I just wanted to point out that (as far as I remember) we're never told that James and/or Lily didn't trust Lupin - only that Sirius thought that he was the spy (That's what he says in the Shrieking Shack). Now, it doesn't necessarily mean that James and Lily did trust Lupin, but that is a possibility.
Madame Pomfrey - Sep 8, 2007 3:15 pm (#1227 of 1326)
Thats what I meant,Anna.Wrong wording.
I would really like to know if Peter went to DE/Voldemort or if they approached him? Was he threatened or promised rewards? Did he volunteer to be secret keeper?I still do not see why the sorting hat placed him in Gryffindor if he has such Slytherin characteristics. As for James, He hated the dark arts.Of course he judged those in Slytherin. He wasn't wrong about them either! The one prank that could have been deadly was played out by Sirius and was righted by James.
Yes,they were blinded by Peter's faults.Gryffindor was their family while in school.He was selected for their house,naturally they were not looking for faults.He was supposed to have some of the same characteristics as they did daring,nerve and chivalry.
I always pictured the Hogwarts kids' jinxing each other a kind of normal thing for adolescent wizards.We see it all the time.I read James' hexing people"just because he can" to mean not that he had a mean streak but because he was an arrogant show off who could cast spells maybe other students couldn't do yet.
Chemyst - Sep 9, 2007 11:03 am (#1228 of 1326)
Why did Lily did like and trust Peter? ~ Luna Logic
I am not sure how much this applies to Lily because we haven't been given this sort of detail in canon, but your question immediately reminded me of a friend I had in college. For most of the two years we were in school together, she was dating the guy who eventually became her husband. The main weakness in our friendship, and probably the chief reason it did not last after college was that whatever 'he' liked, that would become her favorite too. She changed her favorite color, food choices, furniture style preference . . . if he had not approved of me, I sometimes wondered if she would have dropped me too. Generally, Lily seems stronger than that; she defended Snape for quite awhile. But love causes people to do some uncharacteristic things and she may have been worn out with justifying Snape to her friends and didn't want to put James in the position of having to justify Peter to her. Anyway, my point is, it is possible that Lily liked Peter for James' sake. Just as we find so many characters trusting Snape because Dumbledore did, Lily may have trusted Peter because James did.
How could Lily have thanked Sirius for his birthday present three months after the present?
I think she probably thanked him a little over a month after the birthday – that gives Harry a few weeks to learn to fly, break the vase and scare the cat, and another week to get the film developed & owled to Sirius. I think the extra time is accounted for by DD being so intrigued by the cloak that he kept it for a long time and was a bit wistful at the thought of returning it. Dumbledore could have borrowed the cloak in August; told the Potters he was busy with the start of a new term and needs more time; Lily writes the note shortly after that. They were keeping a low profile when she sent it, but they were still having visitors, so I don't think we can know for 100% if they had "upgraded" to the full fidelius charm yet.
I would really like to know if Peter went to DE/Voldemort or if they approached him? ~ Madame Pomfrey
I don't want to guess about your other questions, (if he threatened or promised rewards? Did he volunteer to be secret keeper?) but I think there is enough general information on Voldemort to know that he would be looking to exploit weaknesses. And Peter seems too wishy-washy to initiate such a bold move as going to LV. I think the safe bet is that Voldemort approached Peter first.
Mrs Brisbee - Sep 12, 2007 8:36 pm (#1229 of 1326)
I am not sure how much this applies to Lily because we haven't been given this sort of detail in canon, but your question immediately reminded me of a friend I had in college. For most of the two years we were in school together, she was dating the guy who eventually became her husband. The main weakness in our friendship, and probably the chief reason it did not last after college was that whatever 'he' liked, that would become her favorite too. She changed her favorite color, food choices, furniture style preference . . . if he had not approved of me, I sometimes wondered if she would have dropped me too. Generally, Lily seems stronger than that; she defended Snape for quite awhile. But love causes people to do some uncharacteristic things and she may have been worn out with justifying Snape to her friends and didn't want to put James in the position of having to justify Peter to her. Anyway, my point is, it is possible that Lily liked Peter for James' sake. Just as we find so many characters trusting Snape because Dumbledore did, Lily may have trusted Peter because James did.-- Chemyst
Child Lily didn't strike me as a doormat, but I sometimes wonder about Adult Lily.... Anyway, I think Chemyst is on to something. Lily may have simply trusted James's assessment of his friends-- putting much more trust in his judgment than she did in her own about her own friends because of the way her friendship with Snape turned out. This might explain why she didn't trust any of her other friends with Godmother and Secret Keeping duties, too, and why Sirius became her best friend as well as James's. Perhaps she just didn't quite trust her own judgment on friends anymore in a world where you really needed to trust your friends with your life on a daily basis.
Lily began school at about the same time that Voldemort and his followers moved into the open and the first war began. I have to wonder what it was like at Hogwarts back then. Was the atmosphere the same as it was in HBP, with murders and disappearances, the threat of attacking werewolves and giants, and people being Imperiused into doing terrible things? And Lily knows her former best friend was working toward joining forces with those responsible, the Death Eaters. I suppose that would make her a bit skitterish.
About using Dumbledore for Secret Keeper, I can think of lots of good reasons not to. Madame Pomfrey made an interesting point about Lily saying in her letter that she didn't know what to think. I don't think Lily held knowing Grindelwald against Dumbledore, but Dumbledore was a secretive guy with his own agenda. Just because he might have "The Greater Good" in mind with his plans doesn't necessarily mean he will have the good of the individual in mind, and Lily and James may have recognized this. Dumbledore was a busy man, and there was the small matter of the unreturned cloak, which would suggest that Dumbledore wouldn't be available in a timely fashion if the Potters needed their Secret Keeper (Sirius could be easily reached by magic mirror). Dumbledore also tended to treat people like children who needed him to make the important decisions for them, which might have made them lean more toward someone who would treat them as equals. I can see why Dumbledore wouldn't be the automatic man-of-choice for the Potters.
Esmeralda 'Granny' Weatherwax - Sep 13, 2007 5:15 am (#1230 of 1326)
Mrs Brisbee: Dumbledore also tended to treat people like children who needed him to make the important decisions for them
Hmm... what gave you this impression ? Please argument this with some examples from the books.
Mrs Brisbee - Sep 13, 2007 7:13 am (#1231 of 1326)
Hmm... what gave you this impression ?
Things like Dumbledore's treatment of Trelawney; he doesn't tell her that she needs to stay in the castle because she is in danger. Even if she is ditzy she is a grown-up and it's her life. Dumbledore's treatment of Sirius, who is Harry's godfather, over matters concerning Harry, especially Occlumency where Sirius is simply delivered a letter informing him how it's going to be. Dumbledore's inability to assign and train a new General for the resistance to take over when he died; instead, Dumbledore leaves the resistance fractured, and he tries to manage his plot from beyond the grave by controlling Snape via his portrait. Things like that make me think that Dumbledore didn't think other people were capable of dealing with intellectual or emotional complexity.
I think that new parents like Lily and James would want to rely on themselves and their friends, who they felt would watch out for them and keep them informed of what was going on. Both Lily and James had lost all their parents at this point, and they themselves were now the parents. I just think the last thing they would want would be some paternalistic Father-substitute controlling their lives at this point.
Esmeralda 'Granny' Weatherwax - Sep 13, 2007 11:12 am (#1232 of 1326)
Well, Mrs Brisbee I’m still not convinced.
I cannot argue about Sirius simply being delivered a letter informing him about Harry’s Occlumency lessons, because I haven’t reread OoP in ages and don’t remember quite a lot of it unfortunately. Yes, maybe he could have told him this in person as well as what he told Snape about the connection between Harry and Voldemort. He didn’t do this, or did he ? I really cannot recall.
As for Dumbledore not training a new “General for the resistance” I always got the impression that Moody was the leader of the Order after DD’s death. Granted, Dumbledore did not personally assign him or anything like that, but I suppose it was sort of natural and normal for the most experienced Auror to assume a leading role of the entire Order. The point I’m trying to make is that Dumbledore could not have simply told Moody: “I’m going to die, but after my death, you’re in charge here.” or anything along those lines, because giving away his certain death would have raised a torrent of questions, objections and general panic. Providing anyone (except Harry) with that information would bring him dangerously close to revealing the whole horcrux and elder wand business, which is something he could not have shared with anyone but Harry (and that he did - about the horcruxes I mean).
Things like that make me think that Dumbledore didn't think other people were capable of dealing with intellectual or emotional complexity. I disagree, Dumbledore shared information with Snape that qualifies as complex, advanced magic. For instance in their conversation in the forest or later in his office. And he certainly believed Harry, Ron and Hermione capable of dealing with emotional complexity, or he would not have left them such a difficult task, involving self-discovery and self-acceptance, as the Horcrux hunt has proven itself to be.
What concerns Lily and James, I tend to agree that they “would want to rely on themselves and their friends, who they felt would watch out for them and keep them informed of what was going on”. Although I’m sure Dumbledore had the same intention of keeping them safe (and informed) and they knew this. I believe it was more because of Dumbledore’s friendship with Grindelwald, the exact nature and outcome of which they were in the dark about, than their belief - as you are suggesting - that Dumbledore was trying to control their lives like an overprotective father, that made them hesitate and name Pettigrew as their Secret Keeper. It is not difficult to imagine the reaction of a dark-arts-loathing James at hearing of this relationship of DD’s with a very evil wizard. It may have given him second thoughts about placing their safety in his hands.
maria cloos - Sep 13, 2007 12:16 pm (#1233 of 1326)
I too agree with those who have noted that trusting Wormtail seems foolish only because hindsight is 20/20. In addition to that, we know for a fact that there was not one person in their circle that even considered Wormtail being the traitor (even through all of the years after the Potters' deaths). I think that should certainly be taken into account.
Also, when you've been friends with someone for a long time you become aware of their faults, but you also become accustomed to them. It would be only too easy not to recognize the signs that your close friend is betraying you. It's just difficult to reconcile because we KNOW what later happened.
wynnleaf - Sep 13, 2007 12:39 pm (#1234 of 1326)
Oh I don't so much blame James and Sirius for not realizing that Peter was betraying them. I blame them for not realizing that he was a horrible person.
He was the sort of person to enjoy watching people hurt and humiliated. He was a coward. He was the kind of person who could kill a young boy for no reason, simply at the orders of his master -- even after years of living peacably with a family of boys for years. He was a liar. He was so much not their friend that he was willing to see them all die or framed and sent to Azkaban.
And they couldn't see it. They'd lived with him 24/7 all through Hogwarts and never saw what sort of person he was becoming. It's one thing to not notice if your good friend is becoming a little lax in his ethics. It's another thing to not notice the degree of evil that Peter was moving toward.
Soul Search - Sep 13, 2007 12:55 pm (#1235 of 1326)
wynnleaf,
Given the character development we have for James and Sirius I can see them not recognizing signs in Peter that he was no longer their friend. What I can't see is Lupin not seeing the true Peter. He has been presented with a little more objectivity than James or Sirius.
Still, Lupin may not have been around the old gang much, so maybe that was it. We have no references for Lupin around the time of Godric's Hollow. Lily mentions Peter dropping by, but not Lupin. Lupin hasn't mentioned Godric's Hollow to Harry at all, has he?
Mrs. Sirius - Sep 21, 2007 12:20 pm (#1236 of 1326)
At heart, Peter is a coward and in search of powerful people to protect him. Cowards may well not let people see their true nature.
When he determined that Voldemort was the major power he certainly wasn't going to broadcast his new views or even behaviors in front of his old friends.
How many times haven't we heard on the news after some horrific crime, "but he was always such a nice boy..."
PeskyPixie - Sep 27, 2007 8:39 am (#1237 of 1326)
Throughout the series we have learned to trust Dumbledore even if he isn't putting all of his secrets in your basket . Thus, I cannot help but be annoyed at James for disregarding Dumbledore's information that someone very close to the Potters had turned spy for Voldemort and was leaking their whereabouts to him. After such a lead from Dumbledore James was arrogant enough to trust his own judgement of his friends? Sirius and Lupin were turned against one another by Pettigrew because they at least had enough faith in Dumbledore to believe that a traitor existed among them.
If James were single I might applaud his unwavering belief in friendship, but not when his baby son is being targetted by the most powerful dark wizard of all time. Even if James did not know of the prophecy, he was certainly aware of the danger Harry was in by the Potters being targetted by Voldemort. As a parent any warning sign that one's child might be in danger should not be taken lightly.
I remember a quote from a film I can't quite place at the moment: 'These are my children, and I will protect them even from myself if I have to.' James didn't.
Mrs Brisbee - Sep 27, 2007 9:02 am (#1238 of 1326)
James seems to have suspected Lupin as well. Lupin was the one left out of the loop, after all. I don't see him as disregarding Dumbledore, but picking the wrong friend to suspect. I don't see it as arrogant to trust one's friends, either-- especially if no one is giving him any hard evidence to judge by. I think it too much to ask that he stop trusting everybody. And it was Lily's judgment too. They both got it wrong together.
I think James and Sirius saw each other as family, and trusted each other as family. By Lupin's and Sirius's actions in the Shrieking Shack I think they also saw Peter's betrayal as a family affair, to be cleaned up by "family". I think Dumbledore would be seen by them as more of an authority figure rather than family, an outsider.
It kind of makes me sad if the only good choice James and Lily could have made was to stop trusting their own judgment, and stop trusting all of their friends. Sort of like Voldemort had already won. Maybe Lily and James needed just more information, or needed to think about it more intelligently. They needed to not second guess Sirius as Secret Keeper.
As an aside, though, the Secret Keeping thing isn't all that secure by the way it's done in DH, is it? If the Secret Keeper is killed then everyone who knew the secret becomes a Secret Keeper, so if there is even one spy they can now blab. Perhaps that is why Sirius thought it so important to switch to someone who would never be suspected of being the Secret Keeper. Why Lily wasn't the Keeper though I don't know. That would seem the most secure arrangement if they were allowed to Secret Keep for themselves.
wynnleaf - Sep 27, 2007 10:00 am (#1239 of 1326)
Why Lily wasn't the Keeper though I don't know. That would seem the most secure arrangement if they were allowed to Secret Keep for themselves.
We learn in DH that James or Lily could have been their own Secret Keeper. I can't help but wonder why they didn't. The only reason I can think of would be so that the Secret Keeper would be a person who could go out and about and be around other people and tell someone else the Secret if need be. With James and Lily in hiding, they couldn't very well pass along the secret to others without resorting to a note, which I suppose could fall into the wrong hands.
Mrs Brisbee - Sep 27, 2007 11:17 am (#1240 of 1326)
The only reason I can think of would be so that the Secret Keeper would be a person who could go out and about and be around other people and tell someone else the Secret if need be.
Yes, I think this must have been a big factor in Lily and James's choice. It may have been an attempt to keep some measure of control over their lives while having to go into hiding for an indefinite amount of time.
wynnleaf - Sep 27, 2007 11:20 am (#1241 of 1326)
I happened to see a comment on another site that got me thinking about James and Lily and the likelihood they'd have died regardless of the prophecy.
If LV had not been mostly destroyed when Harry was a year old, what would have occurred?
The Potters had placed themselves at the front line of the war, both serving as members of the Order and together "defying" Voldemort three times. The Longbottoms were attacked by Death Eaters and crucioed into insanity. Many other Order members were killed. Aurors and just regular wizarding families were attacked and killed with regularity.
A wizarding family made up of a "blood traitor" (James) and a "mudblood" (Lily), who were serving in the dangerous position of Order members and who had already defied Voldemort three times would have always been prime targets by Voldemort or his Death Eaters.
We see that in DH, even knowing that they are being specifically targeted, the Potters don't keep their wands with them at all times. James still wishes he could go out and about with his invisibility cloak. And they still had Peter Pettigrew -- a nasty character willing to serve Voldemort regardless of the prophecy -- in their close circle of friends.
So it seems to me that the Potters would very likely have been killed anyway, especially if the war had continued, as it would have if LV had not been partly destroyed when attempting to kill Harry.
Harry would likely have been orphaned, or ended up in a similar position as Neville with both parents incapable of caring for him. He may even have been killed as well.
And, of course, Voldemort would have continued to wage his war. Given that in Harry's time, Voldemort did take over shortly after Dumbledore died, it seems also likely that Voldemort would have only gained power and risen in his influence if he hadn't been stopped back when Harry was a baby. This would only have increased the likelihood that the Potters would eventually have been killed, as well as many others.
Mrs Brisbee - Sep 27, 2007 12:09 pm (#1242 of 1326)
Wynnleaf, that reminds me of the picture Moody had shown Harry of the original Order, where every other person had suffered a violent death. It is quite likely that both Lily and James would have died fighting for the Order had the Prophecy never been made-- though one or both might have lived. It does sound like a perilous life though, especially if Pettigrew was still a spy for Voldemort. It's sort of an alternate universe what-if. As things turned out, the death of Lily and James lead to a thirteen year respite from war, so their deaths had significant meaning for all of the wizarding world.
mona amon - Sep 28, 2007 4:46 am (#1243 of 1326)
This makes Snape's role crucial. By carrying the prophecy to Voldemort, he was the one who set it into motion. If he had not overheard Sybil's prophecy, there would be no 'chosen one', no one to stop Voldemort.
PeskyPixie - Sep 28, 2007 11:44 am (#1244 of 1326)
I have a lot to say regarding mona's post, however I'll save it for another day on the Snape thread.
James and Lily act as true Gryffindors in their loyalty to their friends. However, they should have been more concerned about the fact that a dark wizard was targeting them and one of their friends kept on leaking information about them to the enemy. Anybody in the magical world would desire Albus Dumbledore's protection in such a situation. Even Snape sought out Dumbledore as his best hope of protecting Lily.
James and Sirius act very true to their natures when they decline Dumbledore's protection and cook up their own scheme. I do consider the Potters' decision as disregarding DD's lead; one of three is a rat (i.e. a traitor, not Peter's animagus form ) who is a danger to their baby, yet they just choose to guess who he is? Sirius would be far more responsible if he would've instead talked James into accepting Dumbledore as secret-keeper, reminding him that no one is to be trusted with his godson's life until the snitch in the Order is discovered. A sad situation, yes, but this is war and the Potters' baby is at the centre of it. Seclusion under Dumbledore's protection until the traitor is caught is not a huge price to pay for the ultimate safety of one's baby.
I feel this way as my best friend and I are as close as James and Sirius; we are family. If she were in James' situation I (as best friend and godmother to her child) would opt for her (and her family's) protection by someone with greater ability than myself, even if that would mean not seeing her for a few years (or ever, if I were to die in the war). Then again, perhaps that is just the Slytherin in me.
I agree that the Fidelius Charm becomes very complicated in DH.
Solitaire - Sep 29, 2007 11:49 am (#1245 of 1326)
If he had not overheard Sybil's prophecy, there would be no 'chosen one', no one to stop Voldemort.
Actually, there still might have been a "Chosen One" that was "marked" by Voldemort ... except he might not have known he was "marking" him. After all, "the One with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord" was still going to be born (unless his mother died before she had a chance to give birth), even if no one but Dumbledore had heard the prophecy. Given the fact that Voldemort had been after James and Lily, as well as Alice and Frank Longbottom, there was still the distinct possibility that Voldemort could have come into contact with and injured either Harry or Neville, "marking" one or the other, even though he was unaware of having done so.
Solitaire
Joanna Lupin - Sep 29, 2007 1:13 pm (#1246 of 1326)
It wouldn't be enough to 'injure'. Voldemort's soul had to fall apart and latch itselt to Harry/Neville. It's unlikely it would happen in any other circumenstances.
Chemyst - Sep 29, 2007 3:30 pm (#1247 of 1326)
My inner Hermione is struggling to get out. . .
from wikipedia ~ "Markedness is a somewhat fuzzy notion. There are few strict criteria to determine which forms are considered more marked and which are not. A marked form is a non-basic or less natural form. An unmarked form is a basic, default form."
Prophecies are somewhat nebulous in their interpretations. Since the prophecy never specified a soul, either latched or detached, then 'marked' could mean almost anything Voldemort would have done that distinguished that person from the ordinary.
Solitaire - Sep 30, 2007 9:47 am (#1248 of 1326)
Well, we know that Voldemort had begun making Horcruxes long before there ever was a prophecy. Lily obviously would have known about the prophecy whether Voldemort knew or not ... so she would have been just as likely to behave in the same way if confronted. And Voldemort would have been just as likely to kill a baby as not, even if he didn't know it was prophesied to be his downfall.
I still think it is possible for it to have eventually happened. The circumstances would certainly be different; but I suspect that, as Harry came of age and entered the Wizarding World, something would have occurred to bring them into contact. Hard to say ...
Solitaire
wynnleaf - Sep 30, 2007 1:25 pm (#1249 of 1326)
Solitaire,
I agree that with the Potters defying LV 3 times, being Order members on the front line of the war, and being a marriage of a blood traitor with a "mudblood," they could easily have been targeted by LV even without the prophecy. And Lily would probably have reacted the same way about protecting Harry.
The big difference would be if Snape -- the linchpin in this plot it seems to me -- didn't know that LV was targeting the Potters, he wouldn't ask LV to spare Lily, giving her the crucial choice of whether or not to give her life to protect her child.
Solitaire - Sep 30, 2007 2:15 pm (#1250 of 1326)
I guess I don't see that as a factor, Wynnleaf. I think Lily would have stepped into the breach in any case, prophecy or no prophecy. If her child were threatened, she would stand between him and danger. JM2K, of course ...
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wynnleaf - Sep 30, 2007 2:55 pm (#1251 of 1326)
I guess I don't see that as a factor, Wynnleaf. I think Lily would have stepped into the breach in any case, prophecy or no prophecy. If her child were threatened, she would stand between him and danger. JM2K, of course ... (Solitaire)
Yes, Lily would have tried to save Harry regardless. But JKR made it clear that there was a difference in Lily's "choice" from the typical parent just instinctively trying to save their family. Lily had a specific and clear choice given to her. Otherwise, all those families that LV had killed in the past -- are we supposed to assume no parent ever tried to save or protect their child before? No, what JKR tried to say was that it was because LV had given her a clear and real choice, not the typical choice of a parent trying to save their family in a situation where LV was going to kill them all anyway. In that case, the parent isn't choosing to give up their own life, because they're going to die anyway. That's why James' death didn't count in the same way. JKR specifically said it was because he was going to die anyway. It was the fact that Lily didn't have to die that made her choice so important in protecting Harry. And she wouldn't have been given that choice except that Snape had known LV was targeting the Potters and asked that she be spared.
JKR's quote from 2005
Don't you want to ask me why James's death didn't protect Lily and Harry? There’s your answer, you've just answered your own question, because she could have lived and chose to die. James was going to be killed anyway. Do you see what I mean? I’m not saying James wasn't ready to; he died trying to protect his family but he was going to be murdered anyway. He had no - he wasn't given a choice, so he rushed into it in a kind of animal way, I think there are distinctions in courage. James was immensely brave. But the caliber of Lily's bravery was, I think in this instance, higher because she could have saved herself. Now any mother, any normal mother would have done what Lily did. So in that sense her courage too was of an animal quality but she was given time to choose. James wasn't. It's like an intruder entering your house, isn't it? You would instinctively rush them. But if in cold blood you were told, "Get out of the way," you know, what would you do? I mean, I don't think any mother would stand aside from their child. But does that answer it? She did very consciously lay down her life. She had a clear choice -
PeskyPixie - Nov 29, 2007 3:32 pm (#1252 of 1326)
So, what caused Lily to change her opinion of James and fall in love with him?
Chemyst - Nov 30, 2007 9:04 pm (#1253 of 1326)
So, what caused Lily to change her opinion of James and fall in love with him?
James caused it, mostly.
I don't think there was any one reason. Several things coalesced within a few months' time. One, she finally made a clean break with Severus and actually became available. Secondly, James tried, at least to her face, to change and appear more mature. Thirdly, James did have leadership qualities which are especially attractive in wartime. (I don't think James's being a Quidditch star impressed her directly, but having an athletic man in a time of war would make her feel a bit safer.)
Furthermore, Lily had to be affected by his persistence; eventually she would have had to deal with it one way or another – either to hear him out or to have him arrested as a stalker. And I also think, more than Lily would want to admit, that she likes his family status. I think both Evans sisters had a weakness for social standing. (Certainly social class was important to her sister Petunia, and probably an additional source of jealousy.) But with Lily, we see that Snape was the first who made her feel a special status about her powers; and that was no doubt one of the attractions she felt for him. Snape had always respected Lily. They stayed friends right up until the day he showed more respect toward his Slytherin house than he did to her.
All James really had to do was convince Lily that he respected her because he already had brains, looks, friends and money. And you can't underestimate the fact that James and his inheritance could make Lily feel like a princess when he tried.
HungarianHorntail11 - Jan 28, 2007 6:42 am (#1254 of 1326)
Not sure if it has been mentioned but I'd like to add the fact that she could see the good inside people. Someone like that may be put off of boorish behavior at first but eventually, she would come to see the good in that person - it seemed to be in her nature.
PeskyPixie - Jan 28, 2007 8:31 pm (#1255 of 1326)
I'm sure James is quite dashing and charming (not to mention cute and athletic, too!). Also, during the turbulent era in which they attend Hogwarts James opposes the ideology of the Death Eaters. I'm sure this earns him points with Lily. I'm not a fan of James as an individual, but I respect his ability (especially as a Pure-Blood with nothing to really personally fear from Death Eater policies) to choose the right side in the war.
Julia H. - Jan 3, 2008 12:52 pm (#1256 of 1326)
Poor Severus... what chance could he have?
TwinklingBlueEyes - Jan 5, 2008 1:19 am (#1257 of 1326)
"Poor Severus... what chance could he have?" Hmm, at what point in his life? Seems to me is a major theme is choices?
Barbara J - Jan 5, 2008 8:58 am (#1258 of 1326)
Um, you don't have to re-read thousands of posts to see that the question was about James and Lily, and in that context, what chance could Severus have with Lily? Yes, choices are a theme, but you can only make your own -- I'm sure Severus would have chosen for Lily to prefer him if he could have.
I think Hungarian Horntail is right -- we are told very explicitly that she sees the good in people -- that is the biggest explanation we are going to get for why she changes her mind about James, although we do not see him actually grow very much as a person.
mona amon - Jan 8, 2008 6:09 pm (#1259 of 1326)
Poor Severus... what chance could he have? (Julia H)
JKR tells us in an interview that Lily could have loved Severus romantically if he had given up the Dark Arts, so apparantly in the author's mind he did have a chance. But I agree with you, that does not come across to us in the books. A failure on Jo's part to convey her idea of the situation to us.
me and my shadow 813 - Jan 11, 2009 1:22 pm (#1260 of 1326)
Am I missing something? I am on the Severus thread being told to take my discussion of James to the James thread.
It's been a solid year since anyone posted here.
?
shepherdess - Jan 11, 2009 4:07 pm (#1261 of 1326)
Me and my shadow, I can understand your confusion. Sometimes it's hard to tell which thread something should go on, especially if what you want to say involves more than one character.
A general guideline to go by is: If what you have to say is primarily about one person then it should usually go on that person's thread. If is a comparison of two or more people it would fit best on the thread where that topic is being discussed.
Don't worry about the fact that a thread is inactive. If you post a message on an inactive thread, people will see it and respond if they have anything to contribute. When an inactive thread becomes active again, it will be moved to the main page for as long as there is discussion going on on that thread.
I hope that helps your confusion.
wynnleaf - Jan 11, 2009 8:10 pm (#1262 of 1326)
Shadow, go ahead and comment here about James. I'm sure the discussion will take off.
Soul Search - Jan 12, 2009 8:13 am (#1263 of 1326)
I had a thought reading about James and Lily on the Snape thread. It seems we think James must have changed his ways, otherwise Lily would never have starting dating him and certainly not married him. Maybe not.
James is the "bad boy." Some girls are very attracted to the "bad boy." James did try to keep his "bad boy" activities away from Lily, but I don't think he really changed. Even joining the order and all has a "bad boy" flavor to it.
Lily was attracted to James. I can see a "doth protest too much" suggestion when she calls James "toerag" to Snape.
James wasn't evil or malicious, mostly a prankster that didn't consider other people very well and overconfident in his own abilities so he didn't consider the risks of running around with a werewolf. Even the barmaid thought he and Sirius were quite funny. (His actions with Snape may have gone beyond this.)
By the way, from the size of the detention records for James, he must have spent every single Saturday at Hogwarts in detention.
wynnleaf - Jan 12, 2009 11:27 am (#1264 of 1326)
It seems we think James must have changed his ways, otherwise Lily would never have starting dating him and certainly not married him. Maybe not. (Soul Search)
When we see Lily and Snape talking about the Prank, this is before the Worst Memory scene. James has not changed, even in public, yet Lily believes the Marauder's story and James' heroism over Snape's side of it. In fact, even though she'd heard that Snape had some kind of life threatening experience related to the Whomping Willow, she had never even approach him to ask what happened, whether he was okay, or anything. But regarding her attitude toward James, it doesn't seem to have taken a change in James to make her believe James over Snape.
Later, in the Worst Memory scene, she does not speak to Snape at all until after the "mudblood"' comment. Her focus is not nearly so much on her supposed friend as it is on James. James' comments to Lily are very ominous to me. His "don't make me hex you, Evans" in response to her demands that he quit his own wrong behavior indicates that he's willing to use force on her when she objects to his own bad behavior and then blame her for "making" him do it. That's so classic for an abusive spouse that it's scary.
When Lily dated James she was led to believe that he'd quit much of his bad behavior. Perhaps he had quit a lot of it, but Lupin and Sirius agree that James did continue much behavior that he made sure occurred at a time and place that she never heard about it. And of course, the Marauders seem to have continued their monthly excursions. So Lily dated James at a point where he may have changed to a degree, but he was willing to hide his worse behavior from her and let her think he'd "reformed".
Given that James hid his behavior from Lily, we can't truly know that James must have changed in order for Lily to marry him.
Steve Newton - Jan 12, 2009 12:25 pm (#1265 of 1326)
Well, I have to disagree that James is a bully. He and Snape are enemies, apparently at first sight. Yes, Snapes memories are a true record, but a self selected record. Sort of the same was that Riddle used self selected memories in the diary to show that Hagrid was guilty of opening the Chamber of Secrets.
Julia H. - Jan 12, 2009 12:38 pm (#1266 of 1326)
But Riddle's diary only shows that Hagrid was accused of having opened the Chamber, not that he actually opened it. Snape's "self selected" memories show James behaving like a bully, not only being accused of being a bully. If Snape could select memories in which James was actually a bully, then James was a bully. (Behind the selection of any memories, there is also JKR's purpose to communicate something to us.) Besides, even the recollections of James's friends do not disprove that James was a bully.
Steve Newton - Jan 12, 2009 12:59 pm (#1267 of 1326)
No, the bullying is a conclusion that we come to with limited information. Just like Harry concluded that Hagrid must have opened the chamber. The worst memory was obviously traumatic to Snape, and James and Sirius treated him badly, but all other memories of their interaction are hand selected. We ahve nothing like a complete view of the relationship. Lily saw much of it and chose James. I trust her judgment.
TomProffitt - Jan 12, 2009 1:02 pm (#1268 of 1326)
Later, in the Worst Memory scene, she does not speak to Snape at all until after the "mudblood"' comment. Her focus is not nearly so much on her supposed friend as it is on James. --- wynnleaf
I need to spend more time thinking this through, but I'd like to throw out some food for thought.
The scene was "the worst memory," because it was the last straw. Later, in DH we see the final confrontation that it brought about.
It is worth considering that at this point Lily had already given up on Snape (the scene in "The Prince's Tale" lends weight to this idea) and was starting to pursue other interests. We can deduce that Snape considered it the last chance that he blew, but was it already too late?
wynnleaf - Jan 12, 2009 1:08 pm (#1269 of 1326)
Steve, one might as well say that we only think Harry is very brave, but we might be wrong. After all, there could be thousands of instances of Harry's cowardice that are off the page and we just don't see them. Ridiculous of course, but the whole way we learn about JKR's characters is when she gives us scenes that help us interpret who they really are, not to imagine that there's all sorts of extra stuff that change what we know about the characters she shows us. Yes, it's true that she had to leave out things about characters. This is true of any author. But we should not assume that JKR left out crucial info that actually contradicts the way she's portrayed certain characters.
JKR includes scenes for reasons. Snape didn't actually choose the pensieve scenes; JKR chose them.
It is worth considering that at this point Lily had already given up on Snape (the scene in "The Prince's Tale" lends weight to this idea) and was starting to pursue other interests. (Tom)
Sure, that's likely the case. But as regards Lily's interest in James I was trying to point out that even in the midst of a very clear case of bullying, where James is being particularly nasty, Lily's interest is more on James than his victim. JKR has strongly implied that we should be able to tell in this scene that Lily is interested in James in a "fancy" sort of way. In a way, her focus on James rather than the plight of the victim or helping the victim (doesn't really matter who it is at this point), is noteworthy because even though she dislikes what James is doing, she doesn't actually dislike James.
TomProffitt - Jan 12, 2009 1:43 pm (#1270 of 1326)
In a way, her focus on James rather than the plight of the victim or helping the victim (doesn't really matter who it is at this point), is noteworthy because even though she dislikes what James is doing, she doesn't actually dislike James. --- wynnleaf
I'm no child psychologist and its been a while since I was 16, but isn't that pretty typical behavior of a teenager? Isn't it normal for a teenager not to fully grasp that the actions are the person? It takes a great deal of maturity to realize just how hard it is to change a person.
me and my shadow 813 - Jan 12, 2009 2:02 pm (#1271 of 1326)
even though she dislikes what James is doing, she doesn't actually dislike James. - wynnleaf
Yes, JKR does say regarding this memory that Lily already had feelings for James but was acting as typical teenagers act. Yet, JKR also said if Severus had given up the dark arts Lily could have chosen him. If only...
I certainly hope that in the sixth and seventh years, James displayed some serious improvement and integrity when it came to other people's feelings. It seems they got married pretty quickly after graduating, and I always wondered why JKR had Molly tell us that people were hastily getting married during the first war.
Quinn Crockett - Jan 12, 2009 2:29 pm (#1272 of 1326)
Lily believes the Marauder's story and James' heroism over Snape's side of it. - Maybe that's because James was telling the truth? Anyway, what was "Snape's side" of it? That he was stupid enough to listen to his arch rival's advice (whatever that might have been - most likely a dare) to head down the tunnel and see what he could see? Or that the whole reason he sneaked out in the first place was for the specific purpose of trying to get a good friend of Lily's into trouble, or at least publicly humiliate him about his "condition"?
His "don't make me hex you, Evans" in response to her demands that he quit his own wrong behavior indicates that he's willing to use force on her when she objects to his own bad behavior and then blame her for "making" him do it. That's so classic for an abusive spouse that it's scary.
I find this to be an extreme interpretation. Boys don't know how to interact with girls they like. They pull hair, knock them down, tickle, tussle and tease. I see this only as the wizard equivalent of that, nothing more.
It is worth considering that at this point Lily had already given up on Snape (the scene in "The Prince's Tale" lends weight to this idea) and was starting to pursue other interests. We can deduce that Snape considered it the last chance that he blew, but was it already too late? - I agree. She is very clear in stating her reasons for ending the friendship.
Steve Newton - Jan 12, 2009 2:39 pm (#1273 of 1326)
wynnleaf, we are given many examples of Harry being brave and perhaps cowardly, approaching Cho for instance. In the case of James we have one example and then carefully selected memories. We also have been told that he always resisted the dark arts. I also think that Lily was a pretty good judge of people and she chose James. I think that he was an all right guy. He and Snape were obviously enemies and treated each other as such.
If we didn't have more to go on then the diary memories of the diary would suggest that Riddle was a brave and heroic character. He wasn't.
wynnleaf - Jan 12, 2009 3:48 pm (#1274 of 1326)
I'm no child psychologist and its been a while since I was 16, but isn't that pretty typical behavior of a teenager? Isn't it normal for a teenager not to fully grasp that the actions are the person? It takes a great deal of maturity to realize just how hard it is to change a person. (Tom)
Agreed. But my point was that James didn't have to change first for Lily to be attracted to him, nor did he have to truly change (as opposed to faking a change and hiding the bad behavior), in order to get her to date him. So Lily's dating and finally marrying James is not proof that he changed.
Lily believes the Marauder's story and James' heroism over Snape's side of it. (me)
Maybe that's because James was telling the truth? (Quinn)
Whether it was false or the truth makes absolutely no difference to my point. She heard the Marauder side before she ever even talked to Snape, immediately believing what she heard. James had not "changed" at that point (evidence of Worst Memory), yet she believed in his bravery and, I assume, his good intentions regardless. Once again, this supports the notion that Lily did not need James to change to believe in him, like him, etc.
find this to be an extreme interpretation. Boys don't know how to interact with girls they like. They pull hair, knock them down, tickle, tussle and tease. (Quinn)
When they're 15 they would do this to a girl obviously angry at them? Not a girl the guy is dating. James isn't 10 here, after all.
In the case of James we have one example and then carefully selected memories. (Steve)
Carefully selected by who?? Snape didn't write the story.
I also think that Lily was a pretty good judge of people (Steve)
We know this how? She apparently didn't realize that James was hiding plenty of misbehavior and reckless actions from her. And in her letter to Sirius she sounds quite sympathetic to Pettigrew. Not a great judge of Peter, as it turned out. Sure, maybe she was just going along with Peter because after all, her friends liked him -- but wasn't that partly what she accuses Snape of? Having the wrong friends? Being a "good judge of people" doesn't mean being a good judge of people when they're all open and above board. It means seeing the reality of who someone really is. We don't have evidence that she was anything above average at that.
If we didn't have more to go on then the diary memories of the diary would suggest that Riddle was a brave and heroic character. (Steve)
Once again, Tom Riddle didn't choose those memories to go into the book. JKR was the real person making the choice, and she made sure we also learned of the truth in that situation with Hagrid, as well as the reality of Riddle's evil. When did she show us the truth of the changed James?
Edited for typos.
TomProffitt - Jan 12, 2009 3:58 pm (#1275 of 1326)
wynnleaf, I understand where you are coming from, and I'm not sure that I can agree with your assessment of James' adult character. I would like, but don't have the time time now, to do a deeper study as to what Harry is told about his parents from other sources.
As I've said before, it's the opinions Harry receives from Dumbledore, Hagrid, McGonagall, Flitwick, and others as well as Sirius and Lupin that give me my overall impression of James and Lily as adults.
Hopefully I'll have time to do this in the near future and be able to share my results.
Steve Newton - Jan 12, 2009 7:18 pm (#1276 of 1326)
Snape selected the memories.
We also know that James saved Snape's life.
Ludicrous Patents Office - Jan 12, 2009 7:44 pm (#1277 of 1326)
The things Harry learned about his parents are colored by their heroic deaths. There is a piece of not speaking ill of the dead. Order members (with the noted exception of Snape) liked Harry's parents.
Tom I hope you get the time for your study. I am interested in what you learn. LPO
Julia H. - Jan 12, 2009 8:13 pm (#1278 of 1326)
If we didn't have more to go on then the diary memories of the diary would suggest that Riddle was a brave and heroic character. He wasn't. Steve
If we didn't have anything else about Riddle but the diary memory, he would be a brave and heroic character. After all, it is not a real-life person but a character in the novel and the "truth" about him must be in the novel.
As for Snape selecting the memories: I think if anyone has any true memories of a person being a bully, that person is a bully. If he bullies only one other person, he is a bully. But we have the detention records, and Sirius's observation ("slip of the tongue?") about Pettigrew always choosing to be the follower of the "biggest bully" available - now, who is Pettigrew following while at school?
It would be interesting to study the other characters' observations about James. My hypothesis is that they do not disprove that James was a bully, even if he may have been a great friend at the same time. (He was not bullying his friends but he was certainly bullying Snape.)
wynnleaf - Jan 12, 2009 8:28 pm (#1279 of 1326)
Quite a while back I did study what others said about James. I can't recall all of what I found or my original opinions about it, but as I recall the basics are:
DD has little to say that's really good about James other than that he saved Snape's life and he wouldn't have killed Pettigrew in the Shrieking Shack (a begging, unarmed man). And that Harry's intent to bring down LV shows a way he's like James. That's about it. No sterling endorsements exactly. And he wasn't particularly cut up over James' death. And we know that, as regards James saving Snape's life, DD did not know that full story as he didn't know about the Marauders being animagi, that they released Lupin each month, or anything else. In other words, DD had no idea how much James had to hide regarding that incident.
McGonagall seems to have compared James and friends to Fred and George. Can't recall much else.
Rosemerta the barmaid liked he and Sirius I think.
Hagrid doesn't actually say a huge amount. Can't recall exactly. I think it's all in PS/SS.
Of course, Sirius and Lupin adored James.
Can't recall any other character relating anything about James. Other than Lily of course. I haven't gone back and really looked. I'm just trying to remember what I checked out a couple of years back.
mona amon - Jan 12, 2009 10:59 pm (#1280 of 1326)
Edited Jan 12, 2009 11:57 pm
I think the most that one can say of James (and Lily) after one has closed the last book, is that they were very normal people, they showed bravery in a time of war by joining the Order and defying Voldemort three times, that they loved each other, their baby, and their friends. This is quite a pleasant picture, and should be enough for me, yet I cannot find them particularly admirable or inspiring.
I guess this is because JKR didn't show me any really inspiring James moments. She really does not give him a chance to shine or display any admirable qualities which he may have had, and which his friends praise him for.
Take Dudley, for instance. There are many similarities between him and James. James was a Quidditch champion. Dudley was a boxing champion. They were both adored by their parents. They both had 'gangs' and they were both bullies. James ought to be the more sympathetic character, because he has certain qualities which Dudley doesn't, bravery and...er...umm..., But for me at least, Dudley ends up as the more sympathetic character because he's given his 'shining moment' at the beginning of DH, when he expresses in a bungling (but rather endearing) manner his attachment, concern and gratitude to Harry. It does not matter that he looks more like Grawp during his shining moment, or that he does not exhibit any drastic change. It was enough to change my attitude towards this character. Unfortunately for James, his big scene is Snape's Worst Memory.
James wasn't evil or malicious, mostly a prankster that didn't consider other people very well and overconfident in his own abilities so he didn't consider the risks of running around with a werewolf. Even the barmaid thought he and Sirius were quite funny. (His actions with Snape may have gone beyond this.)
By the way, from the size of the detention records for James, he must have spent every single Saturday at Hogwarts in detention. (Soul Search)
I think you've got down James character very well, Soul Search. As for the detention records, we must remember that not all the cards in the boxes were the Marauders'.
(Editted to fix a typo)
Quinn Crockett - Jan 12, 2009 11:32 pm (#1281 of 1326)
Take Dudley, for instance. There are many similarities between him and James. - Okay let's use that analogy. We know that Dudley did change, that he did have an epiphany of sorts, and that he did begin to treat Harry differently. Why should James be any different?
mona amon - Jan 13, 2009 12:51 am (#1282 of 1326)
I'm not saying he was any different. But we are shown Dudley's shining moment, and that's what made me more sympathetic to him. We are not shown any such moment for James.
Julia H. - Jan 13, 2009 6:06 am (#1283 of 1326)
McGonagall seems to have compared James and friends to Fred and George. Can't recall much else. (Wynnleaf)
This is what McGonagall says in PoA: "Precisely," said Professor McGonagall. "Black and Potter. Ringleaders of their little gang. Both very bright, of course - exceptionally bright, in fact - but I don't think we've ever had such a pair of troublemakers -" "I dunno," chuckled Hagrid. "Fred and George Weasley could give 'em a run fer their money."
So McGonagall remembers James and Sirius as "ringleaders of their gangs" "exceptionally bright" and "troublemakers". It is in fact Hagrid who compares them to Fred and George.
wynnleaf - Jan 13, 2009 7:22 am (#1284 of 1326)
Take Dudley, for instance. There are many similarities between him and James. -(mona amon)
Okay let's use that analogy. We know that Dudley did change, that he did have an epiphany of sorts, and that he did begin to treat Harry differently. Why should James be any different? (Quinn)
Well, we're shown that Dudley and his gang bullied Harry, but Dudley has some sort of change and shows that in his final comments to Harry. The parallel between James and his gang and Dudley and his gang is one that JKR has Harry observe when he sympathizes with Snape in the Worst Memory scene. There's also the coincidental (?) Peter-the-rat and Piers(Peter)-the-rat in both gangs. And both Dudley and James are pampered only children.
But if that's the parallel, then the situation of Harry bullied by Dudley is paralleled by James bullying Snape, a parallel Harry observes. And we are shown that James had no epiphany about his treatment of Snape even if he didn't hex others so much. We are not shown James going to Snape and trying to make peace, but instead we learn that James continued the hexing and so forth throughout school, only hiding it toward the end.
Mrs Brisbee - Jan 13, 2009 7:56 am (#1285 of 1326)
I think the most that one can say of James (and Lily) after one has closed the last book, is that they were very normal people, they showed bravery in a time of war by joining the Order and defying Voldemort three times, that they loved each other, their baby, and their friends. This is quite a pleasant picture, and should be enough for me, yet I cannot find them particularly admirable or inspiring.-- mona amon
I mostly agree with that. One of the great disappointments for me was how little we were given for the adult James and Lily, considering that it was the adult James and Lily who where so important to Harry. We do get a picture of them as a normal, loving family, but I would have loved a better sense of who they were as people.
Quinn Crockett - Jan 13, 2009 2:19 pm (#1286 of 1326)
And we are shown that James had no epiphany about his treatment of Snape even if he didn't hex others so much. - The only thing we're ever shown of James is the worst memory, and no, he didn't have any sort of epiphany in that moment. But if you are going to make a parallel between Dudley the bully and James the bully, we know that Dudley the bully did eventually come around. And we know that James the bully did too because he was made Head Boy and that Lily married him.
He may have continued the occasional scrap with Snape, but there is nothing to suggest that he sought Snape out for the purpose. Rather, it seems he only did so in retaliation ("[Snape] never lost an opportunity to curse James, so you couldn't really expect James to take that lying down, could you?")
wynnleaf - Jan 13, 2009 6:58 pm (#1287 of 1326)
Quinn, just because there are parallels doesn't mean they are exact and James necessarily had to follow the same path as Dudley. Harry sees parallels between Riddle and others, too. And there are parallels between DD and Snape, but certainly not exact.
And we know that James the bully did too because he was made Head Boy and that Lily married him. (Quinn)
That reasoning is based several premises which are highly questionable. 1. If James continued to bully, the school administration would know about it. 2. If James continued to bully, Lily would have known about it. 3. Lily wouldn't marry a bully.
We already know for certain that at least some of James' worst behavior over the years was kept completely secret from the school, therefore we have no reason to believe that the school would necessarily know if James was continuing to bully people. Since we already know that James was able to keep his fighting with Snape secret from Lily, we have no reason to assume that he wouldn't be able to keep bullying from Lily. And since we already know that Lily was attracted to James even before he changed (if he really did), then her marrying him is no proof of a change.
"[Snape] never lost an opportunity to curse James, so you couldn't really expect James to take that lying down, could you?"
Sirius or Lupin assert this, but they also tell Harry that James was able to keep all of his fighting with Snape secret from Lily. How would he have been able to do this for two years if it was not at least primarily James calling the time and place of any fighting? Snape has no reason to keep these confrontations secret from Lily -- only James. In order to keep them secret, the confrontations would have to not only take place out of Lily's sight, but also away from where any of her friends could pass along the info as well. Snape wouldn't care about that. Only James. Therefore if James was able to keep Lily from ever finding out, he must have been the one who determined when most of those confrontations took place. Therefore he initiated them.
me and my shadow 813 - Jan 13, 2009 7:21 pm (#1288 of 1326)
We already know for certain that at least some of James' worst behavior over the years was kept completely secret from the school, therefore ... - wynnleaf
Totally agree. I'd add the quote from DD in King's Cross:
James had showed it to me just a few days previously. It explained much of his undetected wrongdoing at school!
This says to me that James was doing more wrong than just what he was put into detention for. More than what was detected or found out about.
TomProffitt - Jan 13, 2009 7:31 pm (#1289 of 1326)
We already know for certain that at least some of James' worst behavior over the years was kept completely secret from the school ... --- wynnleaf
I know it's splitting a hair, but we only know that Dumbledore doesn't contradict Remus when Remus claims that it was kept secret. Dumbledore kept many secrets, told numerous lies of omission, and I think he also lied by commission (but I can't recall an example). That said, I tend to think that you're right on this one, but I'm keeping an open mind.
Snape has no reason to keep these confrontations secret from Lily -- only James. --- wynnleaf
This presumes that Snape has given up hope on attracting Lily for himself or at least getting her friendship back. I think it quite possible that Snape was an active participant in the feud and astute enough to keep it out of sight of Lily. At the same time I wonder of this is just a less mature Sirius (less mature than James I mean) remembering the past the way he wanted to rather than a report of high accuracy. I know that there is no evidence for this interpretation of Sirius's comment, but it fits my view of Sirius very well.
wynnleaf - Jan 13, 2009 8:07 pm (#1290 of 1326)
It explained much of his undetected wrongdoing at school! (DD)
Fascinating quote. This seems to indicate that DD was acknowledging that James must have done a lot of wrongdoing in school that DD never knew about until later. I wouldn't think he'd be referring to James being an animagus, because James wouldn't need the cloak so much for that. Basically, DD seems to be admitting that he had realized, at least well after the fact, that James had gotten away with a good deal of misbehavior in school.
Maybe that explains how James got made Head Boy. DD simply didn't know how much wrong he was doing at the time.
me and my shadow 813 - Jan 13, 2009 8:28 pm (#1291 of 1326)
Yeah, I tend to agree with that, wynnleaf, despite trying to keep my imagination in check regarding what James could have enjoyed as extracurricular activities besides Quidditch. But, if he liked hexing random people while walking down the hall... imagine what a kid like that could do with an impenetrable means to be invisible...
My imagination goes to things well beyond toenail-growing and hanging people upside down.
mona amon - Jan 13, 2009 8:44 pm (#1292 of 1326)
Wasn't Lord Voldy himself made head boy? So that's not much evidence of change, is it?
Quinn Crockett - Jan 13, 2009 8:59 pm (#1293 of 1326)
Quinn, just because there are parallels doesn't mean they are exact and James necessarily had to follow the same path as Dudley. - Well, I'm confused then. Because Wynnleaf, you reasoned that the parallel between Dudley and James was deliberate on the author's part - to the point that she had even included similarly named characters in their respective "gangs". If that were true, why would that parallel suddenly just drop off when it comes to any kind of maturity or change?
How would he have been able to do this for two years if it was not at least primarily James calling the time and place of any fighting? - This doesn't really make any sense to me. Just because James chose not to retaliate where Lily could find out about it doesn't mean that Snape was so accommodating.
Solitaire - Jan 13, 2009 11:00 pm (#1294 of 1326)
Now, you see, I had a completely different understanding of this quote.
It explained much of his undetected wrongdoing at school! (DD)
Fascinating quote. This seems to indicate that DD was acknowledging that James must have done a lot of wrongdoing in school that DD never knew about until later.
To me, this suggests that Dumbledore probably guessed that James was up to mischief ... he just couldn't quite figure out how he was getting away with it. It also suggests to me that Dumbledore didn't think whatever he was doing seemed that serious.
I thought the toenail-growing hex was from The HBP, not from James. Anything to do with toenails sounds very Snape-y, to me.
TomProffitt - Jan 14, 2009 3:41 am (#1295 of 1326)
Soli, I share your interpretation of the Dumbledore quote. It referred to the Cloak Hallow, not any specific misdeed.
The toenail growing hex, if I recall correctly, and I believe I do, was one Harry acquired from Snape via the book and used on a random person in the hall.
And while we are on the random casting of spells in the halls. This reminds me of quidditch week when it was not unusual for people to be randomly hexed in the halls or end up in the hospital wing with a set of antlers or extremely bushy eyebrows. My impression of James's random hexing is that of a kid throwing spitballs in the hall, mischievous and immature, but not at all similar to a kid brandishing a knife in the hall.
I think that there is a wide discrepancy among we posters on the severity of this infraction. Just how bad is it? From the typical stuff going on in the halls and Jo's frequent use of "low brow" humor I don't think we can conclude it was any worse than Ron's abuse of Prefect Powers to acquire a fanged frisbee.
wynnleaf - Jan 14, 2009 7:15 am (#1296 of 1326)
Quinn, just because there are parallels doesn't mean they are exact and James necessarily had to follow the same path as Dudley. (me)
Well, I'm confused then. Because Wynnleaf, you reasoned that the parallel between Dudley and James was deliberate on the author's part - to the point that she had even included similarly named characters in their respective "gangs". If that were true, why would that parallel suddenly just drop off when it comes to any kind of maturity or change? (Quinn)
I can't see why this is confusing. An author plans a parallel, but not an exact parallel. Happens all the time. JKR does it many, many times. Why, just because it's a parallel, must it be exact?
If a parallel runs closely and then diverges at the end, then the intent may be specifically to show how one person's choice made a difference. Dudley and Harry eventually make peace. Dudley, the bully, was the one that initiated that peace. James and Snape did not make peace. James, the bully, did not initiate it. The two are not exact parallels by any means. But in the bullying, being pampered only kids with a little gang, they are parallels. Harry sees the parallel. Then he gets to see what happens if the bully changes, regrets his past actions, and offers peace -- enmity ceases. We know that enmity between James and Snape did not cease and we never get the slightest clue that James ever offered peace or regrets.
Mrs Brisbee - Jan 14, 2009 7:55 am (#1297 of 1326)
Harry sees the parallel. Then he gets to see what happens if the bully changes, regrets his past actions, and offers peace -- enmity ceases. We know that enmity between James and Snape did not cease and we never get the slightest clue that James ever offered peace or regrets.
I think in the Snape/James scenario, the enmity went both ways, and that might be the factor. We see Harry going out of his way to antagonize Dudley through fifth year, but not after that. Harry isn't jealous of Dudley, either, as far as I can tell.
Now, it would have been awesome if James could have been The Great Peacemaker, but I think the James=Dudley, Snape=Harry scenario breaks down dramatically particularly in the latter years of the feud, where the war would have exacerbated their positions. At that point, the two simply have radically different values that aren't compatible with peace between the two.
wynnleaf - Jan 14, 2009 8:13 am (#1298 of 1326)
Dudley offers peace following Harry's 6th year. In other words, they were still in school -- mid-teens. We aren't shown that James had any regrets about his actions toward Snape ever (Sirius certainly didn't, anyway). At the time James and Snape were at the end of 6th year, james had not yet joined the Order or Snape the DEs (at least as far as we know for either). As far as we know we don't even know that they actually saw each other as representative of differing sides in a war at that point. Certainly Sirius, James' close friend, never thought Snape was a Death Eater, so James probably didn't either. At that point, as far as we know, the enmity James had for Snape was for their actual interactions at school.
Mrs Brisbee - Jan 14, 2009 8:32 am (#1299 of 1326)
No, we aren't shown that James had regrets over his actions towards Snape. But my point is that James doesn't have the same sort of relationship with Snape that Dudley has with Harry, so I don't think it possible to say straight up that if Dudley does something, James should have done exactly that, too. By the time James might have matured enough, the Wizarding World was divided by the hatred sown by Voldemort and his ilk. Snape wasn't a Death Eater at school, but he did belong to the Death Eater wannabe crowd, so it wasn't exactly a secret where he stood-- even if his "filthy little Mudblood" shot at Lily hadn't have been done in front of the Marauders.
It is quite possible that James never changed his mind about his treatment of Snape. Or he might have. We don't know. But it was never going to be manifested in a Dudley-like I-like-you-now-you-saved-my-life kind of way. The relationship between Dudley and Harry does not run exactly parallel to James and Snape.
wynnleaf - Jan 14, 2009 9:07 am (#1300 of 1326)
It is quite possible that James never changed his mind about his treatment of Snape. Or he might have. We don't know. But it was never going to be manifested in a Dudley-like I-like-you-now-you-saved-my-life kind of way. The relationship between Dudley and Harry does not run exactly parallel to James and Snape. (Mrs Brisbee)
I agree. The parallels are not exact, nor were they meant to be. I believe that the parallel was initially brought up because someone pointed out that they felt, in the end, more sympathetic toward Dudley because he was ultimately shown to regret his former bullying and tried to make show his regret and willingness to make peace with Harry. So for that poster (can't recall who), it made Dudley more likeable by the end of the series.
I guess I don't see that as a factor, Wynnleaf. I think Lily would have stepped into the breach in any case, prophecy or no prophecy. If her child were threatened, she would stand between him and danger. JM2K, of course ... (Solitaire)
Yes, Lily would have tried to save Harry regardless. But JKR made it clear that there was a difference in Lily's "choice" from the typical parent just instinctively trying to save their family. Lily had a specific and clear choice given to her. Otherwise, all those families that LV had killed in the past -- are we supposed to assume no parent ever tried to save or protect their child before? No, what JKR tried to say was that it was because LV had given her a clear and real choice, not the typical choice of a parent trying to save their family in a situation where LV was going to kill them all anyway. In that case, the parent isn't choosing to give up their own life, because they're going to die anyway. That's why James' death didn't count in the same way. JKR specifically said it was because he was going to die anyway. It was the fact that Lily didn't have to die that made her choice so important in protecting Harry. And she wouldn't have been given that choice except that Snape had known LV was targeting the Potters and asked that she be spared.
JKR's quote from 2005
Don't you want to ask me why James's death didn't protect Lily and Harry? There’s your answer, you've just answered your own question, because she could have lived and chose to die. James was going to be killed anyway. Do you see what I mean? I’m not saying James wasn't ready to; he died trying to protect his family but he was going to be murdered anyway. He had no - he wasn't given a choice, so he rushed into it in a kind of animal way, I think there are distinctions in courage. James was immensely brave. But the caliber of Lily's bravery was, I think in this instance, higher because she could have saved herself. Now any mother, any normal mother would have done what Lily did. So in that sense her courage too was of an animal quality but she was given time to choose. James wasn't. It's like an intruder entering your house, isn't it? You would instinctively rush them. But if in cold blood you were told, "Get out of the way," you know, what would you do? I mean, I don't think any mother would stand aside from their child. But does that answer it? She did very consciously lay down her life. She had a clear choice -
PeskyPixie - Nov 29, 2007 3:32 pm (#1252 of 1326)
So, what caused Lily to change her opinion of James and fall in love with him?
Chemyst - Nov 30, 2007 9:04 pm (#1253 of 1326)
So, what caused Lily to change her opinion of James and fall in love with him?
James caused it, mostly.
I don't think there was any one reason. Several things coalesced within a few months' time. One, she finally made a clean break with Severus and actually became available. Secondly, James tried, at least to her face, to change and appear more mature. Thirdly, James did have leadership qualities which are especially attractive in wartime. (I don't think James's being a Quidditch star impressed her directly, but having an athletic man in a time of war would make her feel a bit safer.)
Furthermore, Lily had to be affected by his persistence; eventually she would have had to deal with it one way or another – either to hear him out or to have him arrested as a stalker. And I also think, more than Lily would want to admit, that she likes his family status. I think both Evans sisters had a weakness for social standing. (Certainly social class was important to her sister Petunia, and probably an additional source of jealousy.) But with Lily, we see that Snape was the first who made her feel a special status about her powers; and that was no doubt one of the attractions she felt for him. Snape had always respected Lily. They stayed friends right up until the day he showed more respect toward his Slytherin house than he did to her.
All James really had to do was convince Lily that he respected her because he already had brains, looks, friends and money. And you can't underestimate the fact that James and his inheritance could make Lily feel like a princess when he tried.
HungarianHorntail11 - Jan 28, 2007 6:42 am (#1254 of 1326)
Not sure if it has been mentioned but I'd like to add the fact that she could see the good inside people. Someone like that may be put off of boorish behavior at first but eventually, she would come to see the good in that person - it seemed to be in her nature.
PeskyPixie - Jan 28, 2007 8:31 pm (#1255 of 1326)
I'm sure James is quite dashing and charming (not to mention cute and athletic, too!). Also, during the turbulent era in which they attend Hogwarts James opposes the ideology of the Death Eaters. I'm sure this earns him points with Lily. I'm not a fan of James as an individual, but I respect his ability (especially as a Pure-Blood with nothing to really personally fear from Death Eater policies) to choose the right side in the war.
Julia H. - Jan 3, 2008 12:52 pm (#1256 of 1326)
Poor Severus... what chance could he have?
TwinklingBlueEyes - Jan 5, 2008 1:19 am (#1257 of 1326)
"Poor Severus... what chance could he have?" Hmm, at what point in his life? Seems to me is a major theme is choices?
Barbara J - Jan 5, 2008 8:58 am (#1258 of 1326)
Um, you don't have to re-read thousands of posts to see that the question was about James and Lily, and in that context, what chance could Severus have with Lily? Yes, choices are a theme, but you can only make your own -- I'm sure Severus would have chosen for Lily to prefer him if he could have.
I think Hungarian Horntail is right -- we are told very explicitly that she sees the good in people -- that is the biggest explanation we are going to get for why she changes her mind about James, although we do not see him actually grow very much as a person.
mona amon - Jan 8, 2008 6:09 pm (#1259 of 1326)
Poor Severus... what chance could he have? (Julia H)
JKR tells us in an interview that Lily could have loved Severus romantically if he had given up the Dark Arts, so apparantly in the author's mind he did have a chance. But I agree with you, that does not come across to us in the books. A failure on Jo's part to convey her idea of the situation to us.
me and my shadow 813 - Jan 11, 2009 1:22 pm (#1260 of 1326)
Am I missing something? I am on the Severus thread being told to take my discussion of James to the James thread.
It's been a solid year since anyone posted here.
?
shepherdess - Jan 11, 2009 4:07 pm (#1261 of 1326)
Me and my shadow, I can understand your confusion. Sometimes it's hard to tell which thread something should go on, especially if what you want to say involves more than one character.
A general guideline to go by is: If what you have to say is primarily about one person then it should usually go on that person's thread. If is a comparison of two or more people it would fit best on the thread where that topic is being discussed.
Don't worry about the fact that a thread is inactive. If you post a message on an inactive thread, people will see it and respond if they have anything to contribute. When an inactive thread becomes active again, it will be moved to the main page for as long as there is discussion going on on that thread.
I hope that helps your confusion.
wynnleaf - Jan 11, 2009 8:10 pm (#1262 of 1326)
Shadow, go ahead and comment here about James. I'm sure the discussion will take off.
Soul Search - Jan 12, 2009 8:13 am (#1263 of 1326)
I had a thought reading about James and Lily on the Snape thread. It seems we think James must have changed his ways, otherwise Lily would never have starting dating him and certainly not married him. Maybe not.
James is the "bad boy." Some girls are very attracted to the "bad boy." James did try to keep his "bad boy" activities away from Lily, but I don't think he really changed. Even joining the order and all has a "bad boy" flavor to it.
Lily was attracted to James. I can see a "doth protest too much" suggestion when she calls James "toerag" to Snape.
James wasn't evil or malicious, mostly a prankster that didn't consider other people very well and overconfident in his own abilities so he didn't consider the risks of running around with a werewolf. Even the barmaid thought he and Sirius were quite funny. (His actions with Snape may have gone beyond this.)
By the way, from the size of the detention records for James, he must have spent every single Saturday at Hogwarts in detention.
wynnleaf - Jan 12, 2009 11:27 am (#1264 of 1326)
It seems we think James must have changed his ways, otherwise Lily would never have starting dating him and certainly not married him. Maybe not. (Soul Search)
When we see Lily and Snape talking about the Prank, this is before the Worst Memory scene. James has not changed, even in public, yet Lily believes the Marauder's story and James' heroism over Snape's side of it. In fact, even though she'd heard that Snape had some kind of life threatening experience related to the Whomping Willow, she had never even approach him to ask what happened, whether he was okay, or anything. But regarding her attitude toward James, it doesn't seem to have taken a change in James to make her believe James over Snape.
Later, in the Worst Memory scene, she does not speak to Snape at all until after the "mudblood"' comment. Her focus is not nearly so much on her supposed friend as it is on James. James' comments to Lily are very ominous to me. His "don't make me hex you, Evans" in response to her demands that he quit his own wrong behavior indicates that he's willing to use force on her when she objects to his own bad behavior and then blame her for "making" him do it. That's so classic for an abusive spouse that it's scary.
When Lily dated James she was led to believe that he'd quit much of his bad behavior. Perhaps he had quit a lot of it, but Lupin and Sirius agree that James did continue much behavior that he made sure occurred at a time and place that she never heard about it. And of course, the Marauders seem to have continued their monthly excursions. So Lily dated James at a point where he may have changed to a degree, but he was willing to hide his worse behavior from her and let her think he'd "reformed".
Given that James hid his behavior from Lily, we can't truly know that James must have changed in order for Lily to marry him.
Steve Newton - Jan 12, 2009 12:25 pm (#1265 of 1326)
Well, I have to disagree that James is a bully. He and Snape are enemies, apparently at first sight. Yes, Snapes memories are a true record, but a self selected record. Sort of the same was that Riddle used self selected memories in the diary to show that Hagrid was guilty of opening the Chamber of Secrets.
Julia H. - Jan 12, 2009 12:38 pm (#1266 of 1326)
But Riddle's diary only shows that Hagrid was accused of having opened the Chamber, not that he actually opened it. Snape's "self selected" memories show James behaving like a bully, not only being accused of being a bully. If Snape could select memories in which James was actually a bully, then James was a bully. (Behind the selection of any memories, there is also JKR's purpose to communicate something to us.) Besides, even the recollections of James's friends do not disprove that James was a bully.
Steve Newton - Jan 12, 2009 12:59 pm (#1267 of 1326)
No, the bullying is a conclusion that we come to with limited information. Just like Harry concluded that Hagrid must have opened the chamber. The worst memory was obviously traumatic to Snape, and James and Sirius treated him badly, but all other memories of their interaction are hand selected. We ahve nothing like a complete view of the relationship. Lily saw much of it and chose James. I trust her judgment.
TomProffitt - Jan 12, 2009 1:02 pm (#1268 of 1326)
Later, in the Worst Memory scene, she does not speak to Snape at all until after the "mudblood"' comment. Her focus is not nearly so much on her supposed friend as it is on James. --- wynnleaf
I need to spend more time thinking this through, but I'd like to throw out some food for thought.
The scene was "the worst memory," because it was the last straw. Later, in DH we see the final confrontation that it brought about.
It is worth considering that at this point Lily had already given up on Snape (the scene in "The Prince's Tale" lends weight to this idea) and was starting to pursue other interests. We can deduce that Snape considered it the last chance that he blew, but was it already too late?
wynnleaf - Jan 12, 2009 1:08 pm (#1269 of 1326)
Steve, one might as well say that we only think Harry is very brave, but we might be wrong. After all, there could be thousands of instances of Harry's cowardice that are off the page and we just don't see them. Ridiculous of course, but the whole way we learn about JKR's characters is when she gives us scenes that help us interpret who they really are, not to imagine that there's all sorts of extra stuff that change what we know about the characters she shows us. Yes, it's true that she had to leave out things about characters. This is true of any author. But we should not assume that JKR left out crucial info that actually contradicts the way she's portrayed certain characters.
JKR includes scenes for reasons. Snape didn't actually choose the pensieve scenes; JKR chose them.
It is worth considering that at this point Lily had already given up on Snape (the scene in "The Prince's Tale" lends weight to this idea) and was starting to pursue other interests. (Tom)
Sure, that's likely the case. But as regards Lily's interest in James I was trying to point out that even in the midst of a very clear case of bullying, where James is being particularly nasty, Lily's interest is more on James than his victim. JKR has strongly implied that we should be able to tell in this scene that Lily is interested in James in a "fancy" sort of way. In a way, her focus on James rather than the plight of the victim or helping the victim (doesn't really matter who it is at this point), is noteworthy because even though she dislikes what James is doing, she doesn't actually dislike James.
TomProffitt - Jan 12, 2009 1:43 pm (#1270 of 1326)
In a way, her focus on James rather than the plight of the victim or helping the victim (doesn't really matter who it is at this point), is noteworthy because even though she dislikes what James is doing, she doesn't actually dislike James. --- wynnleaf
I'm no child psychologist and its been a while since I was 16, but isn't that pretty typical behavior of a teenager? Isn't it normal for a teenager not to fully grasp that the actions are the person? It takes a great deal of maturity to realize just how hard it is to change a person.
me and my shadow 813 - Jan 12, 2009 2:02 pm (#1271 of 1326)
even though she dislikes what James is doing, she doesn't actually dislike James. - wynnleaf
Yes, JKR does say regarding this memory that Lily already had feelings for James but was acting as typical teenagers act. Yet, JKR also said if Severus had given up the dark arts Lily could have chosen him. If only...
I certainly hope that in the sixth and seventh years, James displayed some serious improvement and integrity when it came to other people's feelings. It seems they got married pretty quickly after graduating, and I always wondered why JKR had Molly tell us that people were hastily getting married during the first war.
Quinn Crockett - Jan 12, 2009 2:29 pm (#1272 of 1326)
Lily believes the Marauder's story and James' heroism over Snape's side of it. - Maybe that's because James was telling the truth? Anyway, what was "Snape's side" of it? That he was stupid enough to listen to his arch rival's advice (whatever that might have been - most likely a dare) to head down the tunnel and see what he could see? Or that the whole reason he sneaked out in the first place was for the specific purpose of trying to get a good friend of Lily's into trouble, or at least publicly humiliate him about his "condition"?
His "don't make me hex you, Evans" in response to her demands that he quit his own wrong behavior indicates that he's willing to use force on her when she objects to his own bad behavior and then blame her for "making" him do it. That's so classic for an abusive spouse that it's scary.
I find this to be an extreme interpretation. Boys don't know how to interact with girls they like. They pull hair, knock them down, tickle, tussle and tease. I see this only as the wizard equivalent of that, nothing more.
It is worth considering that at this point Lily had already given up on Snape (the scene in "The Prince's Tale" lends weight to this idea) and was starting to pursue other interests. We can deduce that Snape considered it the last chance that he blew, but was it already too late? - I agree. She is very clear in stating her reasons for ending the friendship.
Steve Newton - Jan 12, 2009 2:39 pm (#1273 of 1326)
wynnleaf, we are given many examples of Harry being brave and perhaps cowardly, approaching Cho for instance. In the case of James we have one example and then carefully selected memories. We also have been told that he always resisted the dark arts. I also think that Lily was a pretty good judge of people and she chose James. I think that he was an all right guy. He and Snape were obviously enemies and treated each other as such.
If we didn't have more to go on then the diary memories of the diary would suggest that Riddle was a brave and heroic character. He wasn't.
wynnleaf - Jan 12, 2009 3:48 pm (#1274 of 1326)
I'm no child psychologist and its been a while since I was 16, but isn't that pretty typical behavior of a teenager? Isn't it normal for a teenager not to fully grasp that the actions are the person? It takes a great deal of maturity to realize just how hard it is to change a person. (Tom)
Agreed. But my point was that James didn't have to change first for Lily to be attracted to him, nor did he have to truly change (as opposed to faking a change and hiding the bad behavior), in order to get her to date him. So Lily's dating and finally marrying James is not proof that he changed.
Lily believes the Marauder's story and James' heroism over Snape's side of it. (me)
Maybe that's because James was telling the truth? (Quinn)
Whether it was false or the truth makes absolutely no difference to my point. She heard the Marauder side before she ever even talked to Snape, immediately believing what she heard. James had not "changed" at that point (evidence of Worst Memory), yet she believed in his bravery and, I assume, his good intentions regardless. Once again, this supports the notion that Lily did not need James to change to believe in him, like him, etc.
find this to be an extreme interpretation. Boys don't know how to interact with girls they like. They pull hair, knock them down, tickle, tussle and tease. (Quinn)
When they're 15 they would do this to a girl obviously angry at them? Not a girl the guy is dating. James isn't 10 here, after all.
In the case of James we have one example and then carefully selected memories. (Steve)
Carefully selected by who?? Snape didn't write the story.
I also think that Lily was a pretty good judge of people (Steve)
We know this how? She apparently didn't realize that James was hiding plenty of misbehavior and reckless actions from her. And in her letter to Sirius she sounds quite sympathetic to Pettigrew. Not a great judge of Peter, as it turned out. Sure, maybe she was just going along with Peter because after all, her friends liked him -- but wasn't that partly what she accuses Snape of? Having the wrong friends? Being a "good judge of people" doesn't mean being a good judge of people when they're all open and above board. It means seeing the reality of who someone really is. We don't have evidence that she was anything above average at that.
If we didn't have more to go on then the diary memories of the diary would suggest that Riddle was a brave and heroic character. (Steve)
Once again, Tom Riddle didn't choose those memories to go into the book. JKR was the real person making the choice, and she made sure we also learned of the truth in that situation with Hagrid, as well as the reality of Riddle's evil. When did she show us the truth of the changed James?
Edited for typos.
TomProffitt - Jan 12, 2009 3:58 pm (#1275 of 1326)
wynnleaf, I understand where you are coming from, and I'm not sure that I can agree with your assessment of James' adult character. I would like, but don't have the time time now, to do a deeper study as to what Harry is told about his parents from other sources.
As I've said before, it's the opinions Harry receives from Dumbledore, Hagrid, McGonagall, Flitwick, and others as well as Sirius and Lupin that give me my overall impression of James and Lily as adults.
Hopefully I'll have time to do this in the near future and be able to share my results.
Steve Newton - Jan 12, 2009 7:18 pm (#1276 of 1326)
Snape selected the memories.
We also know that James saved Snape's life.
Ludicrous Patents Office - Jan 12, 2009 7:44 pm (#1277 of 1326)
The things Harry learned about his parents are colored by their heroic deaths. There is a piece of not speaking ill of the dead. Order members (with the noted exception of Snape) liked Harry's parents.
Tom I hope you get the time for your study. I am interested in what you learn. LPO
Julia H. - Jan 12, 2009 8:13 pm (#1278 of 1326)
If we didn't have more to go on then the diary memories of the diary would suggest that Riddle was a brave and heroic character. He wasn't. Steve
If we didn't have anything else about Riddle but the diary memory, he would be a brave and heroic character. After all, it is not a real-life person but a character in the novel and the "truth" about him must be in the novel.
As for Snape selecting the memories: I think if anyone has any true memories of a person being a bully, that person is a bully. If he bullies only one other person, he is a bully. But we have the detention records, and Sirius's observation ("slip of the tongue?") about Pettigrew always choosing to be the follower of the "biggest bully" available - now, who is Pettigrew following while at school?
It would be interesting to study the other characters' observations about James. My hypothesis is that they do not disprove that James was a bully, even if he may have been a great friend at the same time. (He was not bullying his friends but he was certainly bullying Snape.)
wynnleaf - Jan 12, 2009 8:28 pm (#1279 of 1326)
Quite a while back I did study what others said about James. I can't recall all of what I found or my original opinions about it, but as I recall the basics are:
DD has little to say that's really good about James other than that he saved Snape's life and he wouldn't have killed Pettigrew in the Shrieking Shack (a begging, unarmed man). And that Harry's intent to bring down LV shows a way he's like James. That's about it. No sterling endorsements exactly. And he wasn't particularly cut up over James' death. And we know that, as regards James saving Snape's life, DD did not know that full story as he didn't know about the Marauders being animagi, that they released Lupin each month, or anything else. In other words, DD had no idea how much James had to hide regarding that incident.
McGonagall seems to have compared James and friends to Fred and George. Can't recall much else.
Rosemerta the barmaid liked he and Sirius I think.
Hagrid doesn't actually say a huge amount. Can't recall exactly. I think it's all in PS/SS.
Of course, Sirius and Lupin adored James.
Can't recall any other character relating anything about James. Other than Lily of course. I haven't gone back and really looked. I'm just trying to remember what I checked out a couple of years back.
mona amon - Jan 12, 2009 10:59 pm (#1280 of 1326)
Edited Jan 12, 2009 11:57 pm
I think the most that one can say of James (and Lily) after one has closed the last book, is that they were very normal people, they showed bravery in a time of war by joining the Order and defying Voldemort three times, that they loved each other, their baby, and their friends. This is quite a pleasant picture, and should be enough for me, yet I cannot find them particularly admirable or inspiring.
I guess this is because JKR didn't show me any really inspiring James moments. She really does not give him a chance to shine or display any admirable qualities which he may have had, and which his friends praise him for.
Take Dudley, for instance. There are many similarities between him and James. James was a Quidditch champion. Dudley was a boxing champion. They were both adored by their parents. They both had 'gangs' and they were both bullies. James ought to be the more sympathetic character, because he has certain qualities which Dudley doesn't, bravery and...er...umm..., But for me at least, Dudley ends up as the more sympathetic character because he's given his 'shining moment' at the beginning of DH, when he expresses in a bungling (but rather endearing) manner his attachment, concern and gratitude to Harry. It does not matter that he looks more like Grawp during his shining moment, or that he does not exhibit any drastic change. It was enough to change my attitude towards this character. Unfortunately for James, his big scene is Snape's Worst Memory.
James wasn't evil or malicious, mostly a prankster that didn't consider other people very well and overconfident in his own abilities so he didn't consider the risks of running around with a werewolf. Even the barmaid thought he and Sirius were quite funny. (His actions with Snape may have gone beyond this.)
By the way, from the size of the detention records for James, he must have spent every single Saturday at Hogwarts in detention. (Soul Search)
I think you've got down James character very well, Soul Search. As for the detention records, we must remember that not all the cards in the boxes were the Marauders'.
(Editted to fix a typo)
Quinn Crockett - Jan 12, 2009 11:32 pm (#1281 of 1326)
Take Dudley, for instance. There are many similarities between him and James. - Okay let's use that analogy. We know that Dudley did change, that he did have an epiphany of sorts, and that he did begin to treat Harry differently. Why should James be any different?
mona amon - Jan 13, 2009 12:51 am (#1282 of 1326)
I'm not saying he was any different. But we are shown Dudley's shining moment, and that's what made me more sympathetic to him. We are not shown any such moment for James.
Julia H. - Jan 13, 2009 6:06 am (#1283 of 1326)
McGonagall seems to have compared James and friends to Fred and George. Can't recall much else. (Wynnleaf)
This is what McGonagall says in PoA: "Precisely," said Professor McGonagall. "Black and Potter. Ringleaders of their little gang. Both very bright, of course - exceptionally bright, in fact - but I don't think we've ever had such a pair of troublemakers -" "I dunno," chuckled Hagrid. "Fred and George Weasley could give 'em a run fer their money."
So McGonagall remembers James and Sirius as "ringleaders of their gangs" "exceptionally bright" and "troublemakers". It is in fact Hagrid who compares them to Fred and George.
wynnleaf - Jan 13, 2009 7:22 am (#1284 of 1326)
Take Dudley, for instance. There are many similarities between him and James. -(mona amon)
Okay let's use that analogy. We know that Dudley did change, that he did have an epiphany of sorts, and that he did begin to treat Harry differently. Why should James be any different? (Quinn)
Well, we're shown that Dudley and his gang bullied Harry, but Dudley has some sort of change and shows that in his final comments to Harry. The parallel between James and his gang and Dudley and his gang is one that JKR has Harry observe when he sympathizes with Snape in the Worst Memory scene. There's also the coincidental (?) Peter-the-rat and Piers(Peter)-the-rat in both gangs. And both Dudley and James are pampered only children.
But if that's the parallel, then the situation of Harry bullied by Dudley is paralleled by James bullying Snape, a parallel Harry observes. And we are shown that James had no epiphany about his treatment of Snape even if he didn't hex others so much. We are not shown James going to Snape and trying to make peace, but instead we learn that James continued the hexing and so forth throughout school, only hiding it toward the end.
Mrs Brisbee - Jan 13, 2009 7:56 am (#1285 of 1326)
I think the most that one can say of James (and Lily) after one has closed the last book, is that they were very normal people, they showed bravery in a time of war by joining the Order and defying Voldemort three times, that they loved each other, their baby, and their friends. This is quite a pleasant picture, and should be enough for me, yet I cannot find them particularly admirable or inspiring.-- mona amon
I mostly agree with that. One of the great disappointments for me was how little we were given for the adult James and Lily, considering that it was the adult James and Lily who where so important to Harry. We do get a picture of them as a normal, loving family, but I would have loved a better sense of who they were as people.
Quinn Crockett - Jan 13, 2009 2:19 pm (#1286 of 1326)
And we are shown that James had no epiphany about his treatment of Snape even if he didn't hex others so much. - The only thing we're ever shown of James is the worst memory, and no, he didn't have any sort of epiphany in that moment. But if you are going to make a parallel between Dudley the bully and James the bully, we know that Dudley the bully did eventually come around. And we know that James the bully did too because he was made Head Boy and that Lily married him.
He may have continued the occasional scrap with Snape, but there is nothing to suggest that he sought Snape out for the purpose. Rather, it seems he only did so in retaliation ("[Snape] never lost an opportunity to curse James, so you couldn't really expect James to take that lying down, could you?")
wynnleaf - Jan 13, 2009 6:58 pm (#1287 of 1326)
Quinn, just because there are parallels doesn't mean they are exact and James necessarily had to follow the same path as Dudley. Harry sees parallels between Riddle and others, too. And there are parallels between DD and Snape, but certainly not exact.
And we know that James the bully did too because he was made Head Boy and that Lily married him. (Quinn)
That reasoning is based several premises which are highly questionable. 1. If James continued to bully, the school administration would know about it. 2. If James continued to bully, Lily would have known about it. 3. Lily wouldn't marry a bully.
We already know for certain that at least some of James' worst behavior over the years was kept completely secret from the school, therefore we have no reason to believe that the school would necessarily know if James was continuing to bully people. Since we already know that James was able to keep his fighting with Snape secret from Lily, we have no reason to assume that he wouldn't be able to keep bullying from Lily. And since we already know that Lily was attracted to James even before he changed (if he really did), then her marrying him is no proof of a change.
"[Snape] never lost an opportunity to curse James, so you couldn't really expect James to take that lying down, could you?"
Sirius or Lupin assert this, but they also tell Harry that James was able to keep all of his fighting with Snape secret from Lily. How would he have been able to do this for two years if it was not at least primarily James calling the time and place of any fighting? Snape has no reason to keep these confrontations secret from Lily -- only James. In order to keep them secret, the confrontations would have to not only take place out of Lily's sight, but also away from where any of her friends could pass along the info as well. Snape wouldn't care about that. Only James. Therefore if James was able to keep Lily from ever finding out, he must have been the one who determined when most of those confrontations took place. Therefore he initiated them.
me and my shadow 813 - Jan 13, 2009 7:21 pm (#1288 of 1326)
We already know for certain that at least some of James' worst behavior over the years was kept completely secret from the school, therefore ... - wynnleaf
Totally agree. I'd add the quote from DD in King's Cross:
James had showed it to me just a few days previously. It explained much of his undetected wrongdoing at school!
This says to me that James was doing more wrong than just what he was put into detention for. More than what was detected or found out about.
TomProffitt - Jan 13, 2009 7:31 pm (#1289 of 1326)
We already know for certain that at least some of James' worst behavior over the years was kept completely secret from the school ... --- wynnleaf
I know it's splitting a hair, but we only know that Dumbledore doesn't contradict Remus when Remus claims that it was kept secret. Dumbledore kept many secrets, told numerous lies of omission, and I think he also lied by commission (but I can't recall an example). That said, I tend to think that you're right on this one, but I'm keeping an open mind.
Snape has no reason to keep these confrontations secret from Lily -- only James. --- wynnleaf
This presumes that Snape has given up hope on attracting Lily for himself or at least getting her friendship back. I think it quite possible that Snape was an active participant in the feud and astute enough to keep it out of sight of Lily. At the same time I wonder of this is just a less mature Sirius (less mature than James I mean) remembering the past the way he wanted to rather than a report of high accuracy. I know that there is no evidence for this interpretation of Sirius's comment, but it fits my view of Sirius very well.
wynnleaf - Jan 13, 2009 8:07 pm (#1290 of 1326)
It explained much of his undetected wrongdoing at school! (DD)
Fascinating quote. This seems to indicate that DD was acknowledging that James must have done a lot of wrongdoing in school that DD never knew about until later. I wouldn't think he'd be referring to James being an animagus, because James wouldn't need the cloak so much for that. Basically, DD seems to be admitting that he had realized, at least well after the fact, that James had gotten away with a good deal of misbehavior in school.
Maybe that explains how James got made Head Boy. DD simply didn't know how much wrong he was doing at the time.
me and my shadow 813 - Jan 13, 2009 8:28 pm (#1291 of 1326)
Yeah, I tend to agree with that, wynnleaf, despite trying to keep my imagination in check regarding what James could have enjoyed as extracurricular activities besides Quidditch. But, if he liked hexing random people while walking down the hall... imagine what a kid like that could do with an impenetrable means to be invisible...
My imagination goes to things well beyond toenail-growing and hanging people upside down.
mona amon - Jan 13, 2009 8:44 pm (#1292 of 1326)
Wasn't Lord Voldy himself made head boy? So that's not much evidence of change, is it?
Quinn Crockett - Jan 13, 2009 8:59 pm (#1293 of 1326)
Quinn, just because there are parallels doesn't mean they are exact and James necessarily had to follow the same path as Dudley. - Well, I'm confused then. Because Wynnleaf, you reasoned that the parallel between Dudley and James was deliberate on the author's part - to the point that she had even included similarly named characters in their respective "gangs". If that were true, why would that parallel suddenly just drop off when it comes to any kind of maturity or change?
How would he have been able to do this for two years if it was not at least primarily James calling the time and place of any fighting? - This doesn't really make any sense to me. Just because James chose not to retaliate where Lily could find out about it doesn't mean that Snape was so accommodating.
Solitaire - Jan 13, 2009 11:00 pm (#1294 of 1326)
Now, you see, I had a completely different understanding of this quote.
It explained much of his undetected wrongdoing at school! (DD)
Fascinating quote. This seems to indicate that DD was acknowledging that James must have done a lot of wrongdoing in school that DD never knew about until later.
To me, this suggests that Dumbledore probably guessed that James was up to mischief ... he just couldn't quite figure out how he was getting away with it. It also suggests to me that Dumbledore didn't think whatever he was doing seemed that serious.
I thought the toenail-growing hex was from The HBP, not from James. Anything to do with toenails sounds very Snape-y, to me.
TomProffitt - Jan 14, 2009 3:41 am (#1295 of 1326)
Soli, I share your interpretation of the Dumbledore quote. It referred to the Cloak Hallow, not any specific misdeed.
The toenail growing hex, if I recall correctly, and I believe I do, was one Harry acquired from Snape via the book and used on a random person in the hall.
And while we are on the random casting of spells in the halls. This reminds me of quidditch week when it was not unusual for people to be randomly hexed in the halls or end up in the hospital wing with a set of antlers or extremely bushy eyebrows. My impression of James's random hexing is that of a kid throwing spitballs in the hall, mischievous and immature, but not at all similar to a kid brandishing a knife in the hall.
I think that there is a wide discrepancy among we posters on the severity of this infraction. Just how bad is it? From the typical stuff going on in the halls and Jo's frequent use of "low brow" humor I don't think we can conclude it was any worse than Ron's abuse of Prefect Powers to acquire a fanged frisbee.
wynnleaf - Jan 14, 2009 7:15 am (#1296 of 1326)
Quinn, just because there are parallels doesn't mean they are exact and James necessarily had to follow the same path as Dudley. (me)
Well, I'm confused then. Because Wynnleaf, you reasoned that the parallel between Dudley and James was deliberate on the author's part - to the point that she had even included similarly named characters in their respective "gangs". If that were true, why would that parallel suddenly just drop off when it comes to any kind of maturity or change? (Quinn)
I can't see why this is confusing. An author plans a parallel, but not an exact parallel. Happens all the time. JKR does it many, many times. Why, just because it's a parallel, must it be exact?
If a parallel runs closely and then diverges at the end, then the intent may be specifically to show how one person's choice made a difference. Dudley and Harry eventually make peace. Dudley, the bully, was the one that initiated that peace. James and Snape did not make peace. James, the bully, did not initiate it. The two are not exact parallels by any means. But in the bullying, being pampered only kids with a little gang, they are parallels. Harry sees the parallel. Then he gets to see what happens if the bully changes, regrets his past actions, and offers peace -- enmity ceases. We know that enmity between James and Snape did not cease and we never get the slightest clue that James ever offered peace or regrets.
Mrs Brisbee - Jan 14, 2009 7:55 am (#1297 of 1326)
Harry sees the parallel. Then he gets to see what happens if the bully changes, regrets his past actions, and offers peace -- enmity ceases. We know that enmity between James and Snape did not cease and we never get the slightest clue that James ever offered peace or regrets.
I think in the Snape/James scenario, the enmity went both ways, and that might be the factor. We see Harry going out of his way to antagonize Dudley through fifth year, but not after that. Harry isn't jealous of Dudley, either, as far as I can tell.
Now, it would have been awesome if James could have been The Great Peacemaker, but I think the James=Dudley, Snape=Harry scenario breaks down dramatically particularly in the latter years of the feud, where the war would have exacerbated their positions. At that point, the two simply have radically different values that aren't compatible with peace between the two.
wynnleaf - Jan 14, 2009 8:13 am (#1298 of 1326)
Dudley offers peace following Harry's 6th year. In other words, they were still in school -- mid-teens. We aren't shown that James had any regrets about his actions toward Snape ever (Sirius certainly didn't, anyway). At the time James and Snape were at the end of 6th year, james had not yet joined the Order or Snape the DEs (at least as far as we know for either). As far as we know we don't even know that they actually saw each other as representative of differing sides in a war at that point. Certainly Sirius, James' close friend, never thought Snape was a Death Eater, so James probably didn't either. At that point, as far as we know, the enmity James had for Snape was for their actual interactions at school.
Mrs Brisbee - Jan 14, 2009 8:32 am (#1299 of 1326)
No, we aren't shown that James had regrets over his actions towards Snape. But my point is that James doesn't have the same sort of relationship with Snape that Dudley has with Harry, so I don't think it possible to say straight up that if Dudley does something, James should have done exactly that, too. By the time James might have matured enough, the Wizarding World was divided by the hatred sown by Voldemort and his ilk. Snape wasn't a Death Eater at school, but he did belong to the Death Eater wannabe crowd, so it wasn't exactly a secret where he stood-- even if his "filthy little Mudblood" shot at Lily hadn't have been done in front of the Marauders.
It is quite possible that James never changed his mind about his treatment of Snape. Or he might have. We don't know. But it was never going to be manifested in a Dudley-like I-like-you-now-you-saved-my-life kind of way. The relationship between Dudley and Harry does not run exactly parallel to James and Snape.
wynnleaf - Jan 14, 2009 9:07 am (#1300 of 1326)
It is quite possible that James never changed his mind about his treatment of Snape. Or he might have. We don't know. But it was never going to be manifested in a Dudley-like I-like-you-now-you-saved-my-life kind of way. The relationship between Dudley and Harry does not run exactly parallel to James and Snape. (Mrs Brisbee)
I agree. The parallels are not exact, nor were they meant to be. I believe that the parallel was initially brought up because someone pointed out that they felt, in the end, more sympathetic toward Dudley because he was ultimately shown to regret his former bullying and tried to make show his regret and willingness to make peace with Harry. So for that poster (can't recall who), it made Dudley more likeable by the end of the series.
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Julia H. - Jan 14, 2009 9:18 am (#1301 of 1326)
Actually, it would have been satisfying if the James who was coming back from behind the veil had dropped a word about his changed attitude towards Snape. The best time for it would have been when Harry was walking towards the forest to face Voldemort. He had just learned about Snape's true allegiance and he met the Marauders. I know there were more important things to discuss but since Harry did have a thought of Snape before using the stone, it would not have been strange to mention him. James then could have said something (especially in the knowledge that Snape had saved Harry's life) meaning he had reconsidered his part in the enmity or something similar.
TomProffitt - Jan 14, 2009 9:55 am (#1302 of 1326)
Actually, it would have been satisfying if the James who was coming back from behind the veil had dropped a word about his changed attitude towards Snape. The best time for it would have been when Harry was walking towards the forest to face Voldemort. --[/b]- Jul ia H.
From a fan's desire for more information it would have been nice to know more about James and Snape as they matured, but I really think it would have significantly harmed "the moment" if we went off on any tangents other than Harry going forward to meet his death.
On the other hand, Harry's chat with Dumbledore in King's Cross would have been a great time to throw out all sorts of exposition and even an opportunity for Harry to have a real good talk with his parents.
Quinn Crockett - Jan 14, 2009 12:43 pm (#1303 of 1326)
Why, just because it's a parallel, must it be exact? - I think if you're going to draw a conclusion about one character based on a stated claim that the author is deliberately making this character similar to another - to the point that you think it significant that the characters have similarly named friends - then you need to carry it all the way through. It seems to me that you are dispensing with the comparison when it no longer serves your purposes.
Personally, I have never thought the author was making a parallel. So for me, even whatever passing similarities the James and Dudley might share don't mean anything.
I agree with Mrs Brisbee that the circumstances of the James/Snape rivalry were entirely different and had an entirely different set of reasons.
me and my shadow 813 - Jan 14, 2009 1:44 pm (#1304 of 1326)
I thought the toenail-growing hex was from The HBP, not from James. Anything to do with toenails sounds very Snape-y, to me.
LOL, Solitaire. Yes, they were both from the Prince, I was just using examples of hexes that are interpretted by most as relatively "harmless".
wynnleaf - Jan 14, 2009 3:02 pm (#1305 of 1326)
Why, just because it's a parallel, must it be exact? (me)
I think if you're going to draw a conclusion about one character based on a stated claim that the author is deliberately making this character similar to another - to the point that you think it significant that the characters have similarly named friends - then you need to carry it all the way through. (Quinn)
By "carry it all the way through" you seem to mean "make the parallel complete through all aspects of the two sides of the supposed parallel lines (or characters in this case)". Well, no, in point of fact, I don't have to do that, because authors who use parallels don't make both sides of the parallel lines or threads or characters line up exactly.
Personally, I have never thought the author was making a parallel. So for me, even whatever passing similarities the James and Dudley might share don't mean anything. (Quinn)
Not much point in debating the characteristics of the parallel between the two characters if you don't think it's there at all. See, you seem to be asserting that James likely changed -- and that this would make a parallel between Dudley and James complete. But if you see no parallel at all, what's the point in insisting on an indicator of a parallelism which you don't think exists?
Solitaire - Jan 14, 2009 10:09 pm (#1306 of 1326)
I think it's a moot point to speculate whether or not James changed. We know precious little of James from the time he left school until he died. We know he married, fathered a child and (with Lily) defied Voldemort thrice. That isn't much to go on.
The fact that Dumbledore not only took him into the Order but offered to be Secret Keeper for James and Lily says a lot to me about Dumbledore's regard for the Potters, despite what at least one poster said on a different thread (that Dumbledore didn't particularly care for James). I think Dumbledore also liked Sirius. He certainly corresponded with him once he re-entered Harry's life, and he helped him find a place to stay in GoF. I don't think DD would have gone to so much trouble had he not liked him. JM2K ...
wynnleaf - Jan 15, 2009 6:34 am (#1307 of 1326)
On that logic, DD liked Mundungus as well. Whether he did or didn't, Mundungus was a thief and quite irresponsible. I'm sure he had his uses, but being asked by DD to join the Order is not evidence of great character.
Julia H. - Jan 15, 2009 6:47 am (#1308 of 1326)
Dumbledore allowed Snape to work for the Order when he did not have a lot of reason to be especially fond of him. Offering to be a Secret Keeper indicates the Potters were important. Their son was the one to vanquish Voldemort, after all. (I guess all known Order members had to keep their whereabouts a secret from DE's or to stay in fortified places at least, but the Potters were a special target for Voldemort.) DD also protected Trelawney in his own school without appearing to be particularly attached to her as a person.
Mrs Brisbee - Jan 15, 2009 7:21 am (#1309 of 1326)
I think it's a moot point to speculate whether or not James changed. We know precious little of James from the time he left school until he died. We know he married, fathered a child and (with Lily) defied Voldemort thrice. That isn't much to go on.-- Solitaire
I think that about sums it up. Unfortunately, despite their importance to Harry, we are never given much about what adult James and Lily were like as persons. We get Lily's letter to Sirius, we get their murders from Voldemort's view, and that's about it. We can tell that they were loving parents, and both Lily and James died trying to protect their family. But we never get them fleshed out. I find this a great pity, because I would have liked to know them better, before "The Forest Again".
Solitaire - Jan 15, 2009 11:01 pm (#1310 of 1326)
being asked by DD to join the Order is not evidence of great character.
No ... but I happen to think offering to be the Potters' SK evidences a fondness for Lily and James. You are certainly free to disagree. It won't change my mind.
mona amon - Jan 16, 2009 8:41 am (#1311 of 1326)
I think Dumbledore was fond of Lily and James in the same moderate degree that he was fond of any other Order member. He doesn't usually allow himself to become really fond of anyone. Maybe Nicolas Flammel, but we don't hear much about that. Harry is the one exception. But I'm going off topic- There's really not that much to say about James and Lily, is there?
ETA: I feel Dumbledore would have offered to be Secret Keeper to any Order member who needed his protection, and also to reformed DEs or anyone who asked for his help.
Solitaire - Jan 17, 2009 8:52 am (#1312 of 1326)
"Lily and James ... I can't believe it ... I didn't want to believe it ... Oh, Albus ..."
Dumbledore reached out and patted her on the shoulder. "I know ... I know ..." he said heavily.
...
Professor McGonagall pulled out a lace handkerchief and dabbed at her eyes beneath her spectacles. Dumbledore gave a great sniff as he took a golden watch from his pocket ..." (PS/SS, Ch. 1)
These are only a few lines ... but I think this entire scene shows great tenderness toward James and Lily by both McGonagall and Dumbledore. You are free to feel as you like.
wynnleaf - Jan 18, 2009 6:19 am (#1313 of 1326)
I did not mean to imply that DD was completely unmoved by the Potter's deaths. But a heavy sigh and a sniff are things even I might do if I'd come only hours since from a death scene, even if it was of complete strangers. Actually, I'd probably be more moved than that, even for strangers.
My reading of DD during that scene is based on his comments and his demeanor. I went back and re-read it and was actually a bit struck by McGonagall as well.
The discussion is rather lengthy well before they get around to discussing the Potters. DD actually asks Minerva at first why she wasn't off celebrating, or if she'd been celebrating. What a bizarre thing to say if DD had known her to be very close to the couple whose bodies he had just recently seen dead in the wreckage of their house.
Minerva doesn't say something like "Celebrate?! How can you ask? I heard that Lily and James were dead!" Oh no. She goes on about people celebrating and how they should be more careful and how muggles are going to hear about this. It's as though she's saying that she's not celebrating because it's not the careful or circumspect thing to do.
Then DD asks her if she wants a sherbert lemon and goes on to describe how he's come to enjoy this sweet.
Finally, Minerva gets around to asking about the Potters. Yes, it turns out that's what she'd originally come to ask about, so it was clearly of high importance to her. But she doesn't seem to feel that DD's initial question to her about celebrating was odd, or that DD's sharing the sherbert lemon was a bit out of place, nor had she earlier said she wasn't celebrating because she'd heard some close friends had died.
I'm sure that DD was affected by the Potter's deaths. He surely felt a bit saddened. But he doesn't act anything like a man who had lost people he deeply cared about.
As I recall, Elphias Doge comments or at least strongly implied in DH that DD wasn't really close to anyone since Grindelwald. Of course, being close to someone isn't necessarily the same as caring about someone deeply. Still, as I mentioned above, in the first chapter of PS/SS, DD's comments do not seem as though he had just come from seeing the dead bodies of people for whom he had deep or strong feelings, nor for whom he thought McGonagall had deep feelings.
Soul Search - Jan 18, 2009 7:51 am (#1314 of 1326)
What we learn later, and especially what we learn in Deathly Hallows, certainly casts a new light on our first glimpse of Dumbledore.
Dumbledore had promised Snape he would help protect Lily, yet she is dead. He must have recently had the scene with a sobbing Snape, yet he makes no mention of it, nor does he seem all that much affected by it.
Dumbledore knows Harry is important to the Wizarding World, but just dumps him on the doorstep to be raised by Muggles.
No mention of Sirius. Has Sirius been carted off to Azkaban yet?
Our first read of this scene has Dumbledore as a wise, kindly Headmaster. After all we learn in the next six books the same scene shows him as really cold and uncaring.
TomProffitt - Jan 18, 2009 8:26 am (#1315 of 1326)
Our first read of this scene has Dumbledore as a wise, kindly Headmaster. After all we learn in the next six books the same scene shows him as really cold and uncaring. --- Soul Search
I don't so much see him as uncaring, but as someone who has become afraid to care, because he has placed himself in a position where to defeat Voldemort he has to send so many people (including himself) into mortal peril and many of them asuredly to their deaths.
wynnleaf - Jan 18, 2009 8:58 am (#1316 of 1326)
I don't so much see him as uncaring, but as someone who has become afraid to care, because he has placed himself in a position where to defeat Voldemort he has to send so many people (including himself) into mortal peril and many of them asuredly to their deaths. (Tom)
Well, yes, I think in general you're right.
To reiterate, I don't think Dumbledore was being cold the evening after the Potter's deaths. He did care and was moved by their deaths. But he wasn't deeply moved or particularly upset. And since I don't think DD was particularly callous, I don't think he believed McGonagall to be deeply upset by their deaths either, or he wouldn't have made his comments about why she wasn't "celebrating". On the other hand, sometimes I think DD really doesn't understand the emotional state of others -- remember how he criticized Sirius to his own godson's face, barely minutes after the godson, Harry, had seen Sirius murdered.
Maybe we should go to the Dumbledore thread.
Solitaire - Jan 18, 2009 9:05 am (#1317 of 1326)
**going off to check PS/SS, assuming I must have a different version from others here**
Chemyst - Aug 15, 2010 6:41 pm (#1318 of 1326)
Moving the Topic here from the Sirius Black Thread
I think it is worth discussing how all of these Patronuses formed after James and Lily fell in love, and what that reflects. - me and my shadow 813
Do we know when James and Lily were able to produce a partonus? I think the timing could be important, because of the seeming relationship between the heart and the form the patronus takes.
me and my shadow 813 - Aug 15, 2010 7:46 pm (#1319 of 1326)
I have always assumed that Dumbledore taught the initial Order members how to conjure a Patronus, that it was not taught at Hogwarts and none of them had attempted one prior to the forming of the Order. So, I've also assumed that neither Lily nor James would have known what form his Patronus would take until being taught during an Order meeting. Since that likely occured while they were engaged or married, I'm assuming Lily was already in love with him and so her Patronus reflected that. I think it's important to remember that in OoP when we see the students practicing their Patronuses, none of them have a partner like Lily and James did when theirs' formed. So, unless I'm missing something, it is possible that love affairs have a bearing on one's Patronus, but if one is too young to have experienced such emotional bonding, the Patronus takes on more of a reflection of the individual's personality... ?
Lots of assuming here but I'm wondering if Wormtail's Patronus was a rat? Or, if it had to do with his mommy
Solitaire - Aug 16, 2010 9:32 am (#1320 of 1326)
Did all Order members have Patronuses? Obviously, Arabella Figg didn't have one. I've often wondered if Wormtail could cast one. His traitorous character makes me question whether or not he could.
me and my shadow 813 - Aug 17, 2010 6:33 pm (#1321 of 1326)
Soli, it seems to me that if one is capable of feeling happiness then one can cast a Patronus charm. We only have Umbridge to go by regarding "dark" wizards casting the charm, so I'd imagine that Wormtail could have done so.
However, I have thought that maybe Umbridge could cast a Patronus because she was surrounded by others who were not dark, and she might have vampired off their hope/light to make her Patronus. This is the only explanation I can think of as to why JKR said (I think) that DE's can't cast Patronuses and yet she was able to, being in proximity to so many non-dark wizards in the "Muggle-born Registration Commission" chapter...
what do you think?
ps - I'm assuming Remus had a Patronus... was it the same wolf figure that Tonks's morphed into when she was mourning his rejection of her? If so, how does that correlate with Severus/Lily having the same form? Pretty close, eh?
Julia H. - Aug 18, 2010 9:57 am (#1322 of 1326)
JKR said (I think) that DE's can't cast Patronuses and yet she was able to, being in proximity to so many non-dark wizards in the "Muggle-born Registration Commission" chapter... (MAMS)
That's an interesting idea. My personal (non-canon) theory in connection with Umbridge is that she may have been a Ministry contact person for Dementors (they were practically Ministry employees, so someone must have been in charge of them), and therefore she practised the Patronus Charm a lot when she was perhaps not so evil yet, and that was why she was able to retain this ability even when she was not better than the Death Eaters. That would also explain why she thought of "neutralising" Harry using the Dementors.
As for Wormtail, he was a Death Eater; so with regard to him, I just accept JKR's statement. Of course, no one was born a Death Eater, but Voldemort liked to recruit young people, and it apparently takes time and strength and practice to learn the Patronus Charm.
I'm assuming Remus had a Patronus... was it the same wolf figure that Tonks's morphed into when she was mourning his rejection of her?
Good question - but Lupin hated to be a werewolf, so I don't know how he would feel about such a Patronus or even about Tonk's Patronus representing him in the shape of a wolf. BTW, Tonk's Patronus could be a female wolf as well... But maybe it was a male wolf, and represented not her happiness but her sorrow about Lupin, who refused her on the grounds that he was too dangerous for her. That does not match what we know about Patronus theory, but we also know that Tonks was extremely unhappy just when her Patronus started representing Lupin.
Lupin does not cast a Patronus when he teaches Harry the Patronus Charm. He does cast a Patronus on the train, but no specific shape is mentioned. This suggests that Lupin's Patronus might still be a wolf, because in PoA JKR does her best to conceal what it is. Here again, I don't see the strong happy thought connected with a wolf-Patronus.
Here we are on the Lily-James thread finally, talking about everyone else but them.
Hieronymus Graubart - Aug 18, 2010 12:40 pm (#1323 of 1326)
Here again, I don't see the strong happy thought connected with a wolf-Patronus.
Why should the happy thought be connected with the shape of the Patronus?
Here is a list of Harry's happy thoughts:
PA12: Memory of first flight
PA12: Memory of winning the house-cup
PA12: Memory of learning to be a wizard and escape from 4PD
PA20: Memory of Sirius' invitation to live with him
PA21: Nonverbal something like: "I can do it, I did it already!"
GF31: Expecting to rejoin with Ron and Hermione
OP1: Ron and Hermione (just their existence or being their friend)
OP31: Imagining the sacking of Dolores Umbridge
DH13: (no happy thought mentioned)
DH28: Ron and Hermione (again)
DH32: "We're all still here, we're still fighting"? (suggested by Luna, not confirmed)
Never was it "My father", "My parents" (I'm on topic ) or "The stag".
Julia H. - Aug 18, 2010 2:14 pm (#1324 of 1326)
Yes, you are completely right. The Patronus does not directly represent the necessary happy thought. Still, Harry's Patronus represents his father, i.e. something absolutely positive and important, even if not the direct result of the "happy thought". To Snape, Lily is clearly much more than just the source of a happy thought, and surely the source of a lot of unhappy thoughts, but ultimately the most important positive force in his life. To Tonks, Lupin means love, his condition notwithstanding. But what valuable quality does the wolf represent to Lupin? And yet, JKR (and even Lupin) being secretive about Lupin's Patronus in PoA suggests that it might be a wolf.
Hieronymus Graubart - Aug 19, 2010 12:44 am (#1325 of 1326)
Is it possible that JKR just wanted to hide the existence of corporeal patronuses (not the shapes of Lupin's Patronus and Dumbledore's Patronus) until Harry casted the stag?
Julia H. - Aug 23, 2010 4:25 pm (#1326 of 1326)
Maybe.
Actually, it would have been satisfying if the James who was coming back from behind the veil had dropped a word about his changed attitude towards Snape. The best time for it would have been when Harry was walking towards the forest to face Voldemort. He had just learned about Snape's true allegiance and he met the Marauders. I know there were more important things to discuss but since Harry did have a thought of Snape before using the stone, it would not have been strange to mention him. James then could have said something (especially in the knowledge that Snape had saved Harry's life) meaning he had reconsidered his part in the enmity or something similar.
TomProffitt - Jan 14, 2009 9:55 am (#1302 of 1326)
Actually, it would have been satisfying if the James who was coming back from behind the veil had dropped a word about his changed attitude towards Snape. The best time for it would have been when Harry was walking towards the forest to face Voldemort. --[/b]- Jul ia H.
From a fan's desire for more information it would have been nice to know more about James and Snape as they matured, but I really think it would have significantly harmed "the moment" if we went off on any tangents other than Harry going forward to meet his death.
On the other hand, Harry's chat with Dumbledore in King's Cross would have been a great time to throw out all sorts of exposition and even an opportunity for Harry to have a real good talk with his parents.
Quinn Crockett - Jan 14, 2009 12:43 pm (#1303 of 1326)
Why, just because it's a parallel, must it be exact? - I think if you're going to draw a conclusion about one character based on a stated claim that the author is deliberately making this character similar to another - to the point that you think it significant that the characters have similarly named friends - then you need to carry it all the way through. It seems to me that you are dispensing with the comparison when it no longer serves your purposes.
Personally, I have never thought the author was making a parallel. So for me, even whatever passing similarities the James and Dudley might share don't mean anything.
I agree with Mrs Brisbee that the circumstances of the James/Snape rivalry were entirely different and had an entirely different set of reasons.
me and my shadow 813 - Jan 14, 2009 1:44 pm (#1304 of 1326)
I thought the toenail-growing hex was from The HBP, not from James. Anything to do with toenails sounds very Snape-y, to me.
LOL, Solitaire. Yes, they were both from the Prince, I was just using examples of hexes that are interpretted by most as relatively "harmless".
wynnleaf - Jan 14, 2009 3:02 pm (#1305 of 1326)
Why, just because it's a parallel, must it be exact? (me)
I think if you're going to draw a conclusion about one character based on a stated claim that the author is deliberately making this character similar to another - to the point that you think it significant that the characters have similarly named friends - then you need to carry it all the way through. (Quinn)
By "carry it all the way through" you seem to mean "make the parallel complete through all aspects of the two sides of the supposed parallel lines (or characters in this case)". Well, no, in point of fact, I don't have to do that, because authors who use parallels don't make both sides of the parallel lines or threads or characters line up exactly.
Personally, I have never thought the author was making a parallel. So for me, even whatever passing similarities the James and Dudley might share don't mean anything. (Quinn)
Not much point in debating the characteristics of the parallel between the two characters if you don't think it's there at all. See, you seem to be asserting that James likely changed -- and that this would make a parallel between Dudley and James complete. But if you see no parallel at all, what's the point in insisting on an indicator of a parallelism which you don't think exists?
Solitaire - Jan 14, 2009 10:09 pm (#1306 of 1326)
I think it's a moot point to speculate whether or not James changed. We know precious little of James from the time he left school until he died. We know he married, fathered a child and (with Lily) defied Voldemort thrice. That isn't much to go on.
The fact that Dumbledore not only took him into the Order but offered to be Secret Keeper for James and Lily says a lot to me about Dumbledore's regard for the Potters, despite what at least one poster said on a different thread (that Dumbledore didn't particularly care for James). I think Dumbledore also liked Sirius. He certainly corresponded with him once he re-entered Harry's life, and he helped him find a place to stay in GoF. I don't think DD would have gone to so much trouble had he not liked him. JM2K ...
wynnleaf - Jan 15, 2009 6:34 am (#1307 of 1326)
On that logic, DD liked Mundungus as well. Whether he did or didn't, Mundungus was a thief and quite irresponsible. I'm sure he had his uses, but being asked by DD to join the Order is not evidence of great character.
Julia H. - Jan 15, 2009 6:47 am (#1308 of 1326)
Dumbledore allowed Snape to work for the Order when he did not have a lot of reason to be especially fond of him. Offering to be a Secret Keeper indicates the Potters were important. Their son was the one to vanquish Voldemort, after all. (I guess all known Order members had to keep their whereabouts a secret from DE's or to stay in fortified places at least, but the Potters were a special target for Voldemort.) DD also protected Trelawney in his own school without appearing to be particularly attached to her as a person.
Mrs Brisbee - Jan 15, 2009 7:21 am (#1309 of 1326)
I think it's a moot point to speculate whether or not James changed. We know precious little of James from the time he left school until he died. We know he married, fathered a child and (with Lily) defied Voldemort thrice. That isn't much to go on.-- Solitaire
I think that about sums it up. Unfortunately, despite their importance to Harry, we are never given much about what adult James and Lily were like as persons. We get Lily's letter to Sirius, we get their murders from Voldemort's view, and that's about it. We can tell that they were loving parents, and both Lily and James died trying to protect their family. But we never get them fleshed out. I find this a great pity, because I would have liked to know them better, before "The Forest Again".
Solitaire - Jan 15, 2009 11:01 pm (#1310 of 1326)
being asked by DD to join the Order is not evidence of great character.
No ... but I happen to think offering to be the Potters' SK evidences a fondness for Lily and James. You are certainly free to disagree. It won't change my mind.
mona amon - Jan 16, 2009 8:41 am (#1311 of 1326)
I think Dumbledore was fond of Lily and James in the same moderate degree that he was fond of any other Order member. He doesn't usually allow himself to become really fond of anyone. Maybe Nicolas Flammel, but we don't hear much about that. Harry is the one exception. But I'm going off topic- There's really not that much to say about James and Lily, is there?
ETA: I feel Dumbledore would have offered to be Secret Keeper to any Order member who needed his protection, and also to reformed DEs or anyone who asked for his help.
Solitaire - Jan 17, 2009 8:52 am (#1312 of 1326)
"Lily and James ... I can't believe it ... I didn't want to believe it ... Oh, Albus ..."
Dumbledore reached out and patted her on the shoulder. "I know ... I know ..." he said heavily.
...
Professor McGonagall pulled out a lace handkerchief and dabbed at her eyes beneath her spectacles. Dumbledore gave a great sniff as he took a golden watch from his pocket ..." (PS/SS, Ch. 1)
These are only a few lines ... but I think this entire scene shows great tenderness toward James and Lily by both McGonagall and Dumbledore. You are free to feel as you like.
wynnleaf - Jan 18, 2009 6:19 am (#1313 of 1326)
I did not mean to imply that DD was completely unmoved by the Potter's deaths. But a heavy sigh and a sniff are things even I might do if I'd come only hours since from a death scene, even if it was of complete strangers. Actually, I'd probably be more moved than that, even for strangers.
My reading of DD during that scene is based on his comments and his demeanor. I went back and re-read it and was actually a bit struck by McGonagall as well.
The discussion is rather lengthy well before they get around to discussing the Potters. DD actually asks Minerva at first why she wasn't off celebrating, or if she'd been celebrating. What a bizarre thing to say if DD had known her to be very close to the couple whose bodies he had just recently seen dead in the wreckage of their house.
Minerva doesn't say something like "Celebrate?! How can you ask? I heard that Lily and James were dead!" Oh no. She goes on about people celebrating and how they should be more careful and how muggles are going to hear about this. It's as though she's saying that she's not celebrating because it's not the careful or circumspect thing to do.
Then DD asks her if she wants a sherbert lemon and goes on to describe how he's come to enjoy this sweet.
Finally, Minerva gets around to asking about the Potters. Yes, it turns out that's what she'd originally come to ask about, so it was clearly of high importance to her. But she doesn't seem to feel that DD's initial question to her about celebrating was odd, or that DD's sharing the sherbert lemon was a bit out of place, nor had she earlier said she wasn't celebrating because she'd heard some close friends had died.
I'm sure that DD was affected by the Potter's deaths. He surely felt a bit saddened. But he doesn't act anything like a man who had lost people he deeply cared about.
As I recall, Elphias Doge comments or at least strongly implied in DH that DD wasn't really close to anyone since Grindelwald. Of course, being close to someone isn't necessarily the same as caring about someone deeply. Still, as I mentioned above, in the first chapter of PS/SS, DD's comments do not seem as though he had just come from seeing the dead bodies of people for whom he had deep or strong feelings, nor for whom he thought McGonagall had deep feelings.
Soul Search - Jan 18, 2009 7:51 am (#1314 of 1326)
What we learn later, and especially what we learn in Deathly Hallows, certainly casts a new light on our first glimpse of Dumbledore.
Dumbledore had promised Snape he would help protect Lily, yet she is dead. He must have recently had the scene with a sobbing Snape, yet he makes no mention of it, nor does he seem all that much affected by it.
Dumbledore knows Harry is important to the Wizarding World, but just dumps him on the doorstep to be raised by Muggles.
No mention of Sirius. Has Sirius been carted off to Azkaban yet?
Our first read of this scene has Dumbledore as a wise, kindly Headmaster. After all we learn in the next six books the same scene shows him as really cold and uncaring.
TomProffitt - Jan 18, 2009 8:26 am (#1315 of 1326)
Our first read of this scene has Dumbledore as a wise, kindly Headmaster. After all we learn in the next six books the same scene shows him as really cold and uncaring. --- Soul Search
I don't so much see him as uncaring, but as someone who has become afraid to care, because he has placed himself in a position where to defeat Voldemort he has to send so many people (including himself) into mortal peril and many of them asuredly to their deaths.
wynnleaf - Jan 18, 2009 8:58 am (#1316 of 1326)
I don't so much see him as uncaring, but as someone who has become afraid to care, because he has placed himself in a position where to defeat Voldemort he has to send so many people (including himself) into mortal peril and many of them asuredly to their deaths. (Tom)
Well, yes, I think in general you're right.
To reiterate, I don't think Dumbledore was being cold the evening after the Potter's deaths. He did care and was moved by their deaths. But he wasn't deeply moved or particularly upset. And since I don't think DD was particularly callous, I don't think he believed McGonagall to be deeply upset by their deaths either, or he wouldn't have made his comments about why she wasn't "celebrating". On the other hand, sometimes I think DD really doesn't understand the emotional state of others -- remember how he criticized Sirius to his own godson's face, barely minutes after the godson, Harry, had seen Sirius murdered.
Maybe we should go to the Dumbledore thread.
Solitaire - Jan 18, 2009 9:05 am (#1317 of 1326)
**going off to check PS/SS, assuming I must have a different version from others here**
Chemyst - Aug 15, 2010 6:41 pm (#1318 of 1326)
Moving the Topic here from the Sirius Black Thread
I think it is worth discussing how all of these Patronuses formed after James and Lily fell in love, and what that reflects. - me and my shadow 813
Do we know when James and Lily were able to produce a partonus? I think the timing could be important, because of the seeming relationship between the heart and the form the patronus takes.
me and my shadow 813 - Aug 15, 2010 7:46 pm (#1319 of 1326)
I have always assumed that Dumbledore taught the initial Order members how to conjure a Patronus, that it was not taught at Hogwarts and none of them had attempted one prior to the forming of the Order. So, I've also assumed that neither Lily nor James would have known what form his Patronus would take until being taught during an Order meeting. Since that likely occured while they were engaged or married, I'm assuming Lily was already in love with him and so her Patronus reflected that. I think it's important to remember that in OoP when we see the students practicing their Patronuses, none of them have a partner like Lily and James did when theirs' formed. So, unless I'm missing something, it is possible that love affairs have a bearing on one's Patronus, but if one is too young to have experienced such emotional bonding, the Patronus takes on more of a reflection of the individual's personality... ?
Lots of assuming here but I'm wondering if Wormtail's Patronus was a rat? Or, if it had to do with his mommy
Solitaire - Aug 16, 2010 9:32 am (#1320 of 1326)
Did all Order members have Patronuses? Obviously, Arabella Figg didn't have one. I've often wondered if Wormtail could cast one. His traitorous character makes me question whether or not he could.
me and my shadow 813 - Aug 17, 2010 6:33 pm (#1321 of 1326)
Soli, it seems to me that if one is capable of feeling happiness then one can cast a Patronus charm. We only have Umbridge to go by regarding "dark" wizards casting the charm, so I'd imagine that Wormtail could have done so.
However, I have thought that maybe Umbridge could cast a Patronus because she was surrounded by others who were not dark, and she might have vampired off their hope/light to make her Patronus. This is the only explanation I can think of as to why JKR said (I think) that DE's can't cast Patronuses and yet she was able to, being in proximity to so many non-dark wizards in the "Muggle-born Registration Commission" chapter...
what do you think?
ps - I'm assuming Remus had a Patronus... was it the same wolf figure that Tonks's morphed into when she was mourning his rejection of her? If so, how does that correlate with Severus/Lily having the same form? Pretty close, eh?
Julia H. - Aug 18, 2010 9:57 am (#1322 of 1326)
JKR said (I think) that DE's can't cast Patronuses and yet she was able to, being in proximity to so many non-dark wizards in the "Muggle-born Registration Commission" chapter... (MAMS)
That's an interesting idea. My personal (non-canon) theory in connection with Umbridge is that she may have been a Ministry contact person for Dementors (they were practically Ministry employees, so someone must have been in charge of them), and therefore she practised the Patronus Charm a lot when she was perhaps not so evil yet, and that was why she was able to retain this ability even when she was not better than the Death Eaters. That would also explain why she thought of "neutralising" Harry using the Dementors.
As for Wormtail, he was a Death Eater; so with regard to him, I just accept JKR's statement. Of course, no one was born a Death Eater, but Voldemort liked to recruit young people, and it apparently takes time and strength and practice to learn the Patronus Charm.
I'm assuming Remus had a Patronus... was it the same wolf figure that Tonks's morphed into when she was mourning his rejection of her?
Good question - but Lupin hated to be a werewolf, so I don't know how he would feel about such a Patronus or even about Tonk's Patronus representing him in the shape of a wolf. BTW, Tonk's Patronus could be a female wolf as well... But maybe it was a male wolf, and represented not her happiness but her sorrow about Lupin, who refused her on the grounds that he was too dangerous for her. That does not match what we know about Patronus theory, but we also know that Tonks was extremely unhappy just when her Patronus started representing Lupin.
Lupin does not cast a Patronus when he teaches Harry the Patronus Charm. He does cast a Patronus on the train, but no specific shape is mentioned. This suggests that Lupin's Patronus might still be a wolf, because in PoA JKR does her best to conceal what it is. Here again, I don't see the strong happy thought connected with a wolf-Patronus.
Here we are on the Lily-James thread finally, talking about everyone else but them.
Hieronymus Graubart - Aug 18, 2010 12:40 pm (#1323 of 1326)
Here again, I don't see the strong happy thought connected with a wolf-Patronus.
Why should the happy thought be connected with the shape of the Patronus?
Here is a list of Harry's happy thoughts:
PA12: Memory of first flight
PA12: Memory of winning the house-cup
PA12: Memory of learning to be a wizard and escape from 4PD
PA20: Memory of Sirius' invitation to live with him
PA21: Nonverbal something like: "I can do it, I did it already!"
GF31: Expecting to rejoin with Ron and Hermione
OP1: Ron and Hermione (just their existence or being their friend)
OP31: Imagining the sacking of Dolores Umbridge
DH13: (no happy thought mentioned)
DH28: Ron and Hermione (again)
DH32: "We're all still here, we're still fighting"? (suggested by Luna, not confirmed)
Never was it "My father", "My parents" (I'm on topic ) or "The stag".
Julia H. - Aug 18, 2010 2:14 pm (#1324 of 1326)
Yes, you are completely right. The Patronus does not directly represent the necessary happy thought. Still, Harry's Patronus represents his father, i.e. something absolutely positive and important, even if not the direct result of the "happy thought". To Snape, Lily is clearly much more than just the source of a happy thought, and surely the source of a lot of unhappy thoughts, but ultimately the most important positive force in his life. To Tonks, Lupin means love, his condition notwithstanding. But what valuable quality does the wolf represent to Lupin? And yet, JKR (and even Lupin) being secretive about Lupin's Patronus in PoA suggests that it might be a wolf.
Hieronymus Graubart - Aug 19, 2010 12:44 am (#1325 of 1326)
Is it possible that JKR just wanted to hide the existence of corporeal patronuses (not the shapes of Lupin's Patronus and Dumbledore's Patronus) until Harry casted the stag?
Julia H. - Aug 23, 2010 4:25 pm (#1326 of 1326)
Maybe.
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