Home
Latest images
Register
Log inBeyond the Closed Door
Page 1 of 1
Beyond the Closed Door
Elanor Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:43 am
Beyond the Closed Door
Ole S - Oct 13, 2003 9:26 pm
Edited by Kip Carter Jan 12, 2006 12:08 pm
Hey There! I'm brand new at this forum, so maybe this has already been discussed to death somewhere else, but I'm really interested in hearing people's views about the mysterious locked room in the dept. of mysteries. It contains something "more wonderful and more terrible than death, than human intelligence, than the forces of nature" (OoP 743) and Harry Potter posseses this awesome power in such great quantites that the greatest dark wizard of all time cannot bear to possess him!
So...here are some of the things that whizzing through my mind: Could it be some essential spirit of humanity? Well, humans do a lot of nasty things as well as good things, even humans who we believe in, like Sirius and James and their cruelty to "Snivellus". It certainly seems that whatever is behind the door is awesome, but benevolent, sort of like love. But, on the other hand whatever is locked in that room must have been put there somehow or contained by people, so somehow it must be submissive to humanity. Or this force is letting itself be contained, letting itself be put in a box? So then is whatever behind the door conscience? It seems like it could be something like Love but its Conscious.
I get the impression that love in Harry's world is something very magical. There are various levels of magic, magic that is rather inoncuous like charms and pranks etc.; everyday magic seems which is the basest. Then there is Magic for power that leads wizards and witches down the road to the Dark arts, this is more inspired and more powerful. But the greatest is the kind of magic associated with Lily's sacrifice for Harry and Harry's love for Sirius that drove Voldemort's possession away- this magic which comes out of Love and is the most powerful of all and somehow comes from the force beyond that door.
Its almost like whatever force is behind the door is sort of like a god in the magical world- I imagine it like the Greek Fates in that it is stand-offish and mysetrious, but sort of like God (in a traditional sense) in that it loves to delight in the victory of good. This Force is what enjoys writing the fates of people like Luna Lovegood and Neville and Figg and Mundungus (who everyone thinks is foolish and unimportant from the outside) and using them as great heroes and champions. Dumbledore is the most powerful wizard because he is filled with love. Take away all his office, his positions, and he is still the most powerful because of the kindness in his eyes and the way he believes in people, even people like Snape. I think it is from this love his magic power arises, the power beyond the door.
I think people can choose whether they want to open to this force. Sort of like how you can't harden your heart with hate and selfishness, and still love people. Draco is going down that road, and Bellatrix and Voldemort are so far down they can't handle love when it is given to them. Maybe this is one of the reasons why Dumbledore made Harry grow up in Little Whinging because there he learned what its like to be hurt and vulnerable- so then he could emphathize and love those who are hurt and vulnerable as well as the people he idolizes- and from this awesome Love will come his power to destroy Voldemort in his final showdown with him. This is what I'm hoping for, anway! Sorry this is so long. I look forward to hearing what YOU think about the force behind the door. Cheers.
This topic serves as an archive of a thread from the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum as hosted on World Crossing which ceased operation on April 15, 2011. At that time, this thread was still set in the "Archived Thread to be Worked" folder of the WC forum. Elanor
Ole S - Oct 13, 2003 9:26 pm
Edited by Kip Carter Jan 12, 2006 12:08 pm
Hey There! I'm brand new at this forum, so maybe this has already been discussed to death somewhere else, but I'm really interested in hearing people's views about the mysterious locked room in the dept. of mysteries. It contains something "more wonderful and more terrible than death, than human intelligence, than the forces of nature" (OoP 743) and Harry Potter posseses this awesome power in such great quantites that the greatest dark wizard of all time cannot bear to possess him!
So...here are some of the things that whizzing through my mind: Could it be some essential spirit of humanity? Well, humans do a lot of nasty things as well as good things, even humans who we believe in, like Sirius and James and their cruelty to "Snivellus". It certainly seems that whatever is behind the door is awesome, but benevolent, sort of like love. But, on the other hand whatever is locked in that room must have been put there somehow or contained by people, so somehow it must be submissive to humanity. Or this force is letting itself be contained, letting itself be put in a box? So then is whatever behind the door conscience? It seems like it could be something like Love but its Conscious.
I get the impression that love in Harry's world is something very magical. There are various levels of magic, magic that is rather inoncuous like charms and pranks etc.; everyday magic seems which is the basest. Then there is Magic for power that leads wizards and witches down the road to the Dark arts, this is more inspired and more powerful. But the greatest is the kind of magic associated with Lily's sacrifice for Harry and Harry's love for Sirius that drove Voldemort's possession away- this magic which comes out of Love and is the most powerful of all and somehow comes from the force beyond that door.
Its almost like whatever force is behind the door is sort of like a god in the magical world- I imagine it like the Greek Fates in that it is stand-offish and mysetrious, but sort of like God (in a traditional sense) in that it loves to delight in the victory of good. This Force is what enjoys writing the fates of people like Luna Lovegood and Neville and Figg and Mundungus (who everyone thinks is foolish and unimportant from the outside) and using them as great heroes and champions. Dumbledore is the most powerful wizard because he is filled with love. Take away all his office, his positions, and he is still the most powerful because of the kindness in his eyes and the way he believes in people, even people like Snape. I think it is from this love his magic power arises, the power beyond the door.
I think people can choose whether they want to open to this force. Sort of like how you can't harden your heart with hate and selfishness, and still love people. Draco is going down that road, and Bellatrix and Voldemort are so far down they can't handle love when it is given to them. Maybe this is one of the reasons why Dumbledore made Harry grow up in Little Whinging because there he learned what its like to be hurt and vulnerable- so then he could emphathize and love those who are hurt and vulnerable as well as the people he idolizes- and from this awesome Love will come his power to destroy Voldemort in his final showdown with him. This is what I'm hoping for, anway! Sorry this is so long. I look forward to hearing what YOU think about the force behind the door. Cheers.
Elanor- Hufflepuff Prefect
- Posts : 1440
Join date : 2011-02-19
Age : 52
Location : France
Beyond the Closed Door (Post 1 to 64)
Elanor Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:44 am
Madame Librarian - Oct 14, 2003 8:16 am (#1 of 64)[/b]
Ole, a very thought-provoking essay. I think you may be on the right track, but I'm not totally sold that the "thing" or "force" behind the door has such a clear-cut moral component to it. I like the idea though that it may be the driver, so to speak, or power source for all human consciousness. I'm too much a believer in free will to give up JKR's major theme of "Choices."
Gawd, I hope it doesn't turn out to be some sort of "Matrix-y" thing or master control board. Even the "Force" business is inching too close to Star Wars.
Thanks for posting and welcome to the Forum !
Ciao. Barb
- - - - - - - - - -
Liz Mann - Oct 14, 2003 9:20 am (#2 of 64)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
You make some good points, Ole S. What on earth could be behind that door???? The description of it Dumbledore gave is really intriguing! "Something more wonderful and terrible than death, than human intelligence and the forces of nature"? Hm...
- - - - - - - - - -
Romulus - Oct 14, 2003 10:17 am (#3 of 64)
I could be wrong - I don't have my books with me - but I think Dumbledore was talking metaphorically? I thought he meant the human heart?
- - - - - - - - - -
Choices - Oct 14, 2003 10:52 am (#4 of 64)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Perhaps in that room is something like the tree in the Garden of Eden, it contains the knowledge of good and evil - that would definitely involve a choice.
- - - - - - - - - -
Ole S - Oct 14, 2003 11:59 am (#5 of 64)
Hey! Thank you for responding! The reason I thought that whatever is beyond the door has a moral element to it was that it opposes Voldemort- who is the epitomy of amoral. "Voldemort could not bear to be in a body so filled with a force he detests." Maybe it is purely metaphorical- like the human heart, but I am hesitant to go there because the human heart has choice and is both amoral and moral- Voldemort's heart chose evil. And I really hope that it won't turn into something Star Warsesque or matrix-y. If it is some sort of force or god we know it is extremely powerful, but reclusive- if the only face it presents to the magical people is a closed door it certainly is not looking for attention! I hope its just about love! (= Here's a crazy thought: I wonder if the open veil is the opposite of the closed door- like if they broke down the door all the love or whatever is behind it would be sucked into the oblivion behind the veil forever and so this is why the door must always be sealed. Reminds me of the dust and the abyss in Philip Pullman's Amber Spyglass. Thanks! Ole
- - - - - - - - - -
schoff - Oct 14, 2003 1:23 pm (#6 of 64)
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Edited by Oct 14, 2003 1:24 pm
I posted this on the "Wands" thread (in response to why Harry's wand overtook Voldemort's and not the other way around), but thought I'd mention it here (with some edits):
Well, Harry does have a very high ability to concentrate on a specific object or thought. That's possibly the reason why he could force the beam back to Voldemort's wand. I'm still impressed that he managed to completely forget his leg was nearly broken during the graveyard scene, and that he was able to run to Cedric on it. He did this in CoS, too--when he'd been injured by the basilisk. Not to mention his ability to summon a Patronus under the most extreme of circumstances. Isn't that also the reason Voldemort couldn't stay in Harry's body? Because Harry started focusing on Sirius and his love for him?
I think Harry can focus more than Voldemort can. Maybe something to do with concentration lies behind the door? Although I can't figure out how it's "more wonderful and terrible than death, than human intelligence and the forces of nature".
- - - - - - - - - -
Detail Seeker - Oct 14, 2003 3:20 pm (#7 of 64)
Quod tempus non sanat, sanat ferrum,... so prepare
the citation "more wonderful and terrible than death, than human intelligence and the forces of nature"leads to an answer to Oles proposal, that, whatever is behind that door, it must be highly morally loaded. This shows very much, that this must be loaded with a highly ambiguous force. Otherwise it would make no sense to lock it away. Only the right person(s) can be allowed to use it, in the wrong hands results may be devastating. So the problem is, who decides, when to open it to whom. That does, als, bring me no closer to a solution, but perhaps, somebody else.
- - - - - - - - - -
J-D - Oct 14, 2003 3:33 pm (#8 of 64)
When DD said "more wonderful and terrible than death, than human intelligence and the forces of nature" I guess I interpreted it a bit differntly. I took it 100% literally. Like in GOF when HArry's in the 3rd task of the Tri-Wizard Tourney and had to get past the sphinx, the 2nd clue is "the middle of the middle and the end of the end" This literally meant the letter "d". I think the same applies for DD's quote. It truly is more wonderful and terrible than death... The only thing I can think of that literally applies to that is truth. The truth about everything, knowledge. It is that which DD has so much of and which Harry must have as well.
- - - - - - - - - -
Hem Hem - Oct 14, 2003 10:29 pm (#9 of 64)
In case anybody feels compelled to check out our thread about this topic from July, here's the link: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
The thread was called "The Room Full of What?," and it had 15 posts.
Enjoy!
- - - - - - - - - -
popkin - Oct 14, 2003 11:10 pm (#10 of 64)
mother
Something Harry has in great quantities that Voldemort cannot fathom is heroism. Harry values other peoples lives to the point that he is willing to sacrifice himself to protect them. Voldemort could never live in the body of someone who would not go to extreme lengths to preserve his own life.
- - - - - - - - - -
shepherdess - Oct 15, 2003 8:58 am (#11 of 64)
55 year old mother of 3, step-mother of 2, grandmom to 3, living in Oklahoma
popkin,
That's close to what I was thinking.
What is "more wonderful and terrible than death, than human intelligence and the forces of nature"? As we've seen already in this thread, the answer to that depends on who's answering. The real question is: what does JKR think is "more wonderful and terrible than death, than human intelligence and the forces of nature"? What is she most in awe of? Is there a clue in the fact that she favors Gryffindor over other houses?
- - - - - - - - - -
schoff - Oct 15, 2003 9:06 am (#12 of 64)
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Edited by Oct 15, 2003 9:06 am
What about curiosity? Like Pandora's box? Or is that hope?
- - - - - - - - - -
virgoddess1313 - Oct 16, 2003 10:22 am (#13 of 64)
I have only the vaguest of idea what may be behind the door, but I have to agree with Hermione... it's something blibbering, no doubt (at least I think that's who said that... and that is what she said. My memory isn't always so great.)
What I wonder is how whatever is behind the door is contained. To me, it doesn't really sound like something tangible, and even with magic aid, how do they keep it there, or even have it there in the first place?
- - - - - - - - - -
::StinkerBell:: - Oct 16, 2003 3:22 pm (#14 of 64)
Use to be LongLiveSnuffles.....
I'm sort of scared to find out whats behind it. Something more powerful that death. Some thing Harry has lots of? I never thought Harry has lots of love, he grew up being hated and he hated others, he never learned to love.
- - - - - - - - - -
Liz Mann - Oct 16, 2003 4:45 pm (#15 of 64)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
Maybe it's morality. Harry certainly has more of it than Voldemort. Loads more! Then again, he's not exactly the most moral of people himself, when you take into consideration his actions when his temper flares, the fact that he wanted to kill Sirius (even if he couldn't bring himself to do it) and his constant rule-breaking.
- - - - - - - - - -
megfox - Oct 18, 2003 8:44 am (#16 of 64)
My name is Madeline Guinevere Fox, and I am pleased to make your aquaintance!
I think that Harry does have some love - he was, after all loved deeply enough by his mother that she died saving his life
- - - - - - - - - -
J-D - Oct 18, 2003 4:28 pm (#17 of 64)
I still think it's truth/infinite knowledge, it just seems like it's been a common thread in the book that it's not always good to know everything. "Wisdom is a horrible thing when it brings no profit to its professor" Quoting Oedipus Rex, I think the truth can be both greater and worse than death depending on how you look at it.
- - - - - - - - - -
Emily - Oct 18, 2003 7:37 pm (#18 of 64)
I agree with the knowledge idea, too. Could the knowledge that Harry will have, and that Voldemort knows not be how you vanquish someone who can'tbe killed? No, I really am pretty serious about this. I thought of love at first, but decided it was too obvious.
Edit: I've come up with two points against myself.
1) Voldemort has plenty of knowledge, so it can't be knowledge in gnerall. It would have to be just the specific knowledge of how you destroy someting that technically can't be destroyed.
2)If it were knowledge, wouldn't the brains that Ron came upon be in there too, instead of where Ron found them?
I wish we had a map of the DoM, so I could figure out if the brain room were adjacent to, or anywhere near, the loked room.
- - - - - - - - - -
Hem Hem - Oct 22, 2003 9:08 pm (#19 of 64)
It's a large glass tank full of floating hearts...it is, really.
And they attack when you "accio" them, too.
Sorry to all of you who read me post this same comment at both of the EZboard Forums, but I felt that I couldn't try "take 3" of this discussion without my own two knuts.
- - - - - - - - - -
zixyer - Oct 22, 2003 9:23 pm (#20 of 64)
So Harry's going to kill Voldemort with a barrage of flying hearts? How disgusting.
- - - - - - - - - -
Hem Hem - Oct 22, 2003 9:26 pm (#21 of 64)
No worse than Ron getting attacked by a brain, is it?
- - - - - - - - - -
Susurro Notities - Oct 23, 2003 6:20 am (#22 of 64)
Bloodier, much Bloodier!
- - - - - - - - - -
timrew - Oct 23, 2003 3:04 pm (#23 of 64)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
So Voldie is going to die of a heart attack? Sorry - I know I've said it before!
- - - - - - - - - -
mischa fan - Oct 23, 2003 9:06 pm (#24 of 64)
Easy being green, it is not
Yes you have Tim, but I groaned just as loud as the first time I read it
- - - - - - - - - -
Susurro Notities - Oct 23, 2003 10:01 pm (#25 of 64)
Voldemort has a heart?!?
- - - - - - - - - -
::StinkerBell:: - Oct 23, 2003 10:03 pm (#26 of 64)
Use to be LongLiveSnuffles.....
Maybe on Chistmas Day, Voldmorts heart will grow three times larger, Do Da Da Do, here comes Chistmas day...... Sorry, Dr. Suess.......
- - - - - - - - - -
Neville Potter - Oct 26, 2003 2:17 pm (#27 of 64)
It's got to be love or something similar. It wasn't knowledge that stopped Voldy possessing Harry in the Atrium. Harry had been thinking that he would see Sirius again, and it says
"his heart swelled with emotion". That was when Voldy let go. Think, it's his HEART. What emotion does the heart have? Especially when he was thinking about Sirius!
- - - - - - - - - -
Tomoé - Nov 10, 2003 9:03 am (#28 of 64)
Back in business
'The Truth.' Dumbledore sighed. 'It is a beautiful and terrible thing, and should therefore be treated with great caution. (PS p.216)
If there is one thing Voldemort cannot understand, it is love. (PS p.216)
Truth or love ? DD's definition of Truth is closer to DD's definition of what lay beyond the closed door, but love is a power that Voldemort do not possess. Or maybe Harry knows something that will help him to vanquish the dark lord.
- - - - - - - - - -
SarcasticGinny - Nov 17, 2003 10:57 am (#29 of 64)
Hmm, maybe it's some form of both love and truth. Say the room contains something that pertains to the truth ABOUT love. Anyone has the ability to feel love, but not everyone has the ability to understand it. A deeper understanding of how love works can be both beautiful or terrible depending on the reasons for, and results of loving. There's no doubt that Lily loved Harry, that Harry loved Sirius, and on the flipside, you can argue that servants as devout as Bellatrix and Barty Jr. display some warped form of love for Lord Voldemort. The truth about love and its workings could be enormously powerful if Harry were to know, understand, and master it. Is this a bunch of mumbo-jumbo, or am I making any sense? I'm hoping its the latter, but the ammount of papers I've had garbling my mind this week makes me wonder. Just a thought...
- - - - - - - - - -
Lenka - Nov 19, 2003 11:54 am (#30 of 64)
ahhhh essays
It's love. I've never questioned that, and was actually surprised at this whole thread. Concider:
"...power the Dark Lord know's not-"
"But I don't!" said Harry, in a strangled voice. "I haven't powers he hasn't got, I couldn't fight the way he did tonight, I can't posess people or - or kill them -"
'There is a room in the Department of Mysteries,' interrupted Dumbledore, 'that is kept locked at all times. It contains a force that is at once more wonderful and more teribll than death, than human intelligence, than the forces of nature. It is also, perhaps, the most mysterious of the many subjects that reside there. It is the power held within that room that you posess is such quantities and which Voldemort has not at all. That power took you to save Sirius tonight. That power also saved you from possesion by Voldemort, because he could not bear to reside in a body so full of the force he detests. In the end, it mattered not that you could not close your mind. It was your heart that saved you."
1) The "power" that took Harry to go save Sirius tonight was love - Harry loved Sirius and could not watch him suffer and not do anything.
2) The power Voldemort detests is most likely love, becuase it (Lily's love for Harry) deprived him of a body for over ten years and causes "pain beyond pain". Also, Quirell can't touch harry because his mother's love (and sacrifice) is protecting him.
3) The moment when Voldy fled harry was when Harry wanted Dumbledore to kill him so he could be with Sirius again. This could be, I admit, interpreted as hope, but I think it's love.
4) Heart is often associated with love, and DD said it was Harry's heart that saved him.
5) Someone said the force is what JK thinks is "more wonderful and more teribll than death, than human intelligence, than the forces of nature." The idea of the love of Harry's mother saving Harry, and that Quirell couldn't touch Harry because he was marked by "such love", is already present in the books. Clearly, JK believes in truth, choices, and bravery, but I think above all, she shows it is the love inside Harry that makes it imposible for evil to touch him.
6) Also, it's a very deep idea, knowing the only force that can save the world from Voldy is love. It fits nicelly into the "we are as strong as we are united, and as weak as we are divided" and the "but if in our hearts we stay united" theory.
Now, as for more wonderfull and terrible than death. Well, more wonderfull than death - love makes life worth it. More terrible than death - Loosing people you love is worse than dying yourself. As for the forces of nature and human inteligence, well, no earthquake can be worse than seeigh someone you love die, and no sunny day can be better than being with the people you love, inteligence isn't more wonderfull than love (take that, Hermione
) and it can't be worse than losing the people you love.
I think Harry has lots of love, even towards people he doesn't know. I think that's what Hermione mistakes for his "Hero" complex. He simply doesn't have the heart to leave others to die. That's why he goes into the CoS although he doesn't really know or like Ginny, that's why he goes to save Ron in PoA, that's why he lets Pettigrew live, that's why he saves the Fleur Girl, tells Cedric about the dragons, goes to MoM to save Sirius...
Alright, I think this post is a bit too long and might get cut off at the end.
Lenka
- - - - - - - - - -
::StinkerBell:: - Nov 19, 2003 4:16 pm (#31 of 64)
Use to be LongLiveSnuffles.....
What the world needs now, is love, sweet love....
- - - - - - - - - -
timrew - Nov 19, 2003 4:29 pm (#32 of 64)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Ah, Love! It makes the world go round, it's a many spleandoured thing, it means never having to say you're sorry, it's all you need!
- - - - - - - - - -
Tomoé - Nov 19, 2003 9:02 pm (#33 of 64)
Back in business
Thanks for taking the time to put the evidences together Lenka ^_^ . Love seem more likely than Truth now.
Could Harry use a spell based on love, something like the patronus spell is based on happyness, or the inforgivable curses are based on ... er ... hate and sadistic pleasure. Will Harry create a spell that block AK ? Or a spell that bind Big V's magical power ? Or cause the dark lord to feel love again (if he have ever felt it ¬_¬ ). Or protect the entire world form Lord Thingy as he get kill.
- - - - - - - - - -
Susurro Notities - Nov 19, 2003 9:08 pm (#34 of 64)
"What's so funny about Peace, Love, and Understanding?"
- - - - - - - - - -
Tomoé - Nov 19, 2003 10:34 pm (#35 of 64)
Back in business
That's a bit clichéd, don't you think ^_^ . But yes it could be vanquish with love, compassion andunderstanding -_- .
- - - - - - - - - -
Susurro Notities - Nov 19, 2003 10:44 pm (#36 of 64)
Edited by Nov 19, 2003 9:44 pm
Exactly Mr. Costello's point. Clichéd yet true and wonderful.
- - - - - - - - - -
Tomoé - Nov 20, 2003 12:00 am (#37 of 64)
Back in business
But to come to understanding, love and compassion, you must first disarmed lord Voldie, because he won't come "quietly" if you ask him to do so.
- - - - - - - - - -
Scales - Nov 20, 2003 10:28 pm (#38 of 64)
aka Miss Granger
Just want to say that I love what everyone is saying and add a bit...
I think that it is not only the love that Harry has for everyone, but also the love that everyone has for him. No one truely loves Voldemort, not even Bellatrix or Peter. They have a strange love and devotion to him, but not the true love that comes deep from the heart and mind. Also, he was an orphan who never knew love from anyone. He never had anyone who cared about him or loved him the way Harry does. Even the Dursleys may act as though they don't love Harry, but I am sure there is a deep, sort of, hidden love for him and no matter how many threats from DD there were they would have already thrown him out, or never taken him from the begining. They are mean people, but not down right nasty, hating like Voldi. It's the love that Harry has for everyone, and the love that everyone was probably feeling for Harry at the time when Voldi tried to take him over. All that love at once probably shot thru Voldi like a lightening bolt.
Yes, I believe it some form of love behind that door.
- - - - - - - - - -
Choices - Dec 9, 2003 11:45 am (#39 of 64)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I definitely think that LOVE is the key. That bit of blood that Voldemort got from Harry in the graveyard at the end of GoF is going to be very important (IMO) in the defeat of Voldemort by Harry - the love of Harry's mother that protects him is in that blood somehow and now Voldemort has a bit of that love in him. I think it will grow and weaken the evil in Voldemort now and the power of that love will bring about his eventual downfall.
- - - - - - - - - -
Little Miss Question-All - Dec 11, 2003 6:25 pm (#40 of 64)
"Harry values other peoples lives to the point that he is willing to sacrifice himself to protect them. - Popkin
"I think Harry has lots of love, even towards people he doesn't know. I think that's what Hermione mistakes for his "Hero" complex. He simply doesn't have the heart to leave others to die." - Lenka
My first thought upon reading the end of OotP was that it was love. In fact, I never considered anything else until reading this thread. But the heroism point, which has been drilled into us throughout the books, I think is the most convincing evidence that it has to be love. After all, the greatest love you can show is to give your life for another person.
Of course, the question remains, how can love be locked in a room? I guess we'll just have to wait and see!
- - - - - - - - - -
Little Ginny - Dec 13, 2003 11:13 am (#41 of 64)
I don't know whether any of you have watched the first Indiana Jones movie- sorry, don't know its title at the moment, was something about a quest, if I remember correctly- but nearly at the end, when the Nazis try to open the case that contains the Ten Commandments, a kind of Divine force comes out and kills all who do not close their eyes. I thought maybe this love force might act the same way.
- - - - - - - - - -
timrew - Dec 14, 2003 3:56 pm (#42 of 64)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Little Ginny, it was called "The Raiders Of The Lost Ark".
I think you're right. But I think the 'Love Force' will only affect people like Voldemort or his Death Eaters, who have no love in their hearts.
People like Harry, who have love and compassion for others won't be affected.
- - - - - - - - - -
Little Ginny - Dec 17, 2003 10:27 am (#43 of 64)
Yes, of course there was no quest, sorry, I thought the German title.
Well, I think that the trick is that you must know with what you are dealing beforehand. I know that sounds very strange, but I don't know how to put it. It's like you said, timrew, that you have to have love, but I think that you also need to be aware of it, and appreciate it.
- - - - - - - - - -
freshwater - Dec 27, 2003 9:08 pm (#44 of 64)
Connections, speculation, discussion: the best part of HP reading! Check out the on-going HP Lex Forum series re-read! Currently reading GoF...
When I first read DD's explanation of the power Harry has that LV does not, I thought of it as love/compassion. After reading this thread, I'd also add self-denial...perhaps it is only one of the many aspects of love, but it would be in direct opposition to LV's character which is totally self-indulgent, self-absorbed and selfish.
- - - - - - - - - -
Little Ginny - Dec 29, 2003 5:07 am (#45 of 64)
Edited by Kip Carter Dec 29, 2003 5:26 am
I edited this post and changed some abbreviations to actual words. The changes are in italics. - Kip
I just re-read that passage yesterday, and I noticed that "love" wasn't mentioned once. Even Dumbledore didn't say "the fact that your mother loved you so much that she died for you", he says just "The fact that our mother died for you" (paraphrasing, it's in Book 5, of course, I think the chapter is "The lost prophecy", but I don't have it with me now, sorry).
It seemed to me as if JK Rowling was deliberately avoiding the word "love", but almost paraphrased it, so that we all would think it was love, but in the end it will be something totally different.
- - - - - - - - - -
FCBarca - Dec 31, 2003 6:01 am (#46 of 64)
I would just like to say the force behind the door is love, or at least, all the 'evidence' points to love. What I think people may not realize is that the power behind the door isn't necessarily what Harry will use to kill Voldemort. I'm not critisising anyone, it's just I think some people may believe this power is what will kill Voldemort because Harry has it and Voldemort doesn't. Maybe it will be used to kill Voldemort, but the book never said that, all it said that the reason why Voldemort couldn't kill Harry at Godric's Hollow is because Harry has got 'power the Dark Lord knows not' (Chapter 37), which is the Love that Lily gave him by sacrificing herself to save him, and the reason Harry couldn't be possessed is love for another person, Sirius. Voldemort detest's love.
Remember, the Prophecy knew that was going to happen, just as it knew Voldemort will mark Harry as an equal. It knew Voldemort would lose his powers that night, because the Prophecy said 'and the Dark Lord 'will' mark him as his equal, but he 'will' have powers the Dark Lord knows not'.
I just thought I would mention that, as it seemed important that people realized that the power behind the door is what saved Harry, not necessarily the power what is going to kill Voldemort.
- - - - - - - - - -
Q. Trimble - Jan 23, 2004 2:24 pm (#47 of 64)
I'm also of the opinion that the force behind the door is not love. Harry is certainly capable of it but I don't this is what has consistently saved him or the only thing that Voldemort lacks. I think the force is faith.
JKR has created a world where nothing is certain, not even love, which can be brewed up in a potions lab and certain people like Riddle and Snape have just not been given. Thus I don't regard Voldemort as the real villain of the series; the worst thing that Harry has to deal with is the ever present attitudes of people like the Malfoys (which actually means 'bad faith' doesn't it?) And his only weapon against all the confusion is his faith in the goodness of the world. Voldemort fears death because he believes that this is the end and thus he doesn't recognise the value of worldly things, which, to him, will all eventually perish.
Notice that it is Harry's certainty that he will see Sirius again when Voldemort is about to kill him that really makes him relinquish his possession of Harry. It is Faith that people like Dumbledore have in bucketloads and Voldemort has not at all. Isn't the greatest strength of people like Dumbledore, Hagrid and Luna that they believe and trust where others don't? That they have faith in everyone. Clealy the dementors, who rob a person of this are Voldemort's true allies and their ability to rob a person of an after life could very well be the 'fate worse than death' that has been mentioned.
Plus it would be really ironic for all those people who find the books immoral for promoting witchcraft over religion.
- - - - - - - - - -
Choices - Jan 23, 2004 2:44 pm (#48 of 64)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Well said, Q. Trimble, well said! You make some very good points and it will be interesting to see if you are correct.
- - - - - - - - - -
freshwater - Jan 23, 2004 4:46 pm (#49 of 64)
Connections, speculation, discussion: the best part of HP reading! Check out the on-going HP Lex Forum series re-read! Currently reading GoF...
I don't know if I agree with you completely, Q. Trimble, but you certainly present a persuasive and intriguing argument. Take 25 points for your house....Ravenclaw, right? :-)
- - - - - - - - - -
Dr Filibuster - Jan 23, 2004 5:07 pm (#50 of 64)
Sue, from Northwich, England.
Pay a visit to the socks thread.
Maybe the room is full of socks! odd socks (hell) for some, lovingly laundered socks (heaven) for others? Maybe Voldiemort has no socks but Harry has an abundance of them?
Q Trimble, your post made me think of something like the stable in the last Narnia book.
- - - - - - - - - -
FCBarca - Jan 24, 2004 6:44 am (#51 of 64)
But Q.Trimble, faith isn't the reason why Harry tried to save Sirius, it was love. Dumbledore said the power behind the door is what Harry used to try and save Sirius, which is love, not faith, as faith is the belief of something. Some good point's brought up though, and you obviously could be right about it.
- - - - - - - - - -
Choices - Jan 24, 2004 10:01 am (#52 of 64)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I think you could say perhaps it was faith, as well as love, that made Harry try to save Sirius. Lily and James put their faith in Sirius when they named him Harry's godfather. They had faith that Sirius would care for Harry if anything happened to them. Harry has faith that Sirius is innocent of the crime he is accused of and faith in Sirius as a good person. He has faith that Sirius would be there for him and would try to save him (Harry) if he was in a perilous situation. Yes, it was love that motivated Harry, but I think it was also his belief (faith)in Sirius that prompted him to act.
- - - - - - - - - -
timrew - Jan 24, 2004 4:01 pm (#53 of 64)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Doc (Sue), I think you have a point comparing the room in the MOM with the stable at the end of the Narnia books. To enter that stable was Hell for some, and Heaven for others, depending on what was in their hearts.
Maybe your fate is decided before you even open the door.
- - - - - - - - - -
Dr Filibuster - Jan 24, 2004 4:49 pm (#54 of 64)
Sue, from Northwich, England.
Thanks Tim. Rowling will make Voldemort accountable for his actions somehow.
We have already seen how the phoenix song can give strength to some and weaken others. How it affects you depends on what is within you, what kind of person you have chosen to be.
Perhaps Harry could walk through that room and be OK, even gain strength, but if Voldemort went in he would be tormented?
Have you heard of that story often mentioned in school assembley? Two indentical rooms full of people sat at feast laden tables. The people are not able to feed themselves because they have huge forks strapped to their arms and can't reach their own mouths. In one room the people are starving, tormented, crying out for help. In the other they are content, full and laughing. The second room have been feeding their companions. Of course, Voldemort would probably get everyone to feed him.
Other things spring to mind...Somebody mentioned the climax to Raiders of the Lost Ark, which reminds me of Pandora's box. Wasn't it hope that came out last? Doesn't Harry represent hope?
How about the Holy Grail, wasn't it only the purest person who would find it?...or does that fit in with the first book and finding the stone better?
Hmm, some jumbled thoughts there sorry to ramble, hope some things were relevant.
- - - - - - - - - -
Madame Librarian - Jan 24, 2004 5:29 pm (#55 of 64)
Dr. F, you've mentioned only 2 of the many quest legends this world has produced. At some level they are all the same story. JKR is taking the common elements and creating a unique and delightful mix that we call Harry Potter. I'm sooo curious how it's going to all play out. I am confident the ending--what's in the DoM, Snape's true nature, what's with Petunia, all of those burning issues--will resolve in a way that fits with all the myths and legends but in a truly creative way.
A question I ask myself is this: Is what's behind the closed door the solution to everything or is it simply (well, not simply, but you know what I mean) another tool or advantage for Harry to use against Voldie? In other words, if Harry can reach the door and open it, will everything be over and have a happy ending, or does he still have that final confrontation to survive, then he can get the door open?
Am I making any sense? Didn't get my Saturday nap, so am rambling.
Ciao. Barb
- - - - - - - - - -
Q. Trimble - Jan 25, 2004 8:05 am (#56 of 64)
I suppose you could say that faith and love are related, or that you can't have one without the other. It's just that I can see how Harry's faith might be of more use to him in a duel with Voldemort (assuming that this will be the climax of th series) as the source of Harry's courage if you like. I love the way that Dumbledore is just totally unconcerned when he faces Voldemort and always utterly confident that whatever happens to him someone will eventually defeat Voldemort.
I think, Madame Librarian, that the door might never actually be opened (JKR might leave it as one of those unanswered questions like she did with the veil in OotP) because I think it represents those mysteries that will always remain, well, mysteries. You know the great unknown, which some people will trust and others, like Voldemort, will always be terrified of.
- - - - - - - - - -
Choices - Feb 14, 2004 7:53 pm (#57 of 64)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
In rereading OotP, I noticed something interesting in the chapter titled Christmas on the Closed Ward. It is when Harry falls asleep after speaking with Phineas Nigellus....."he reached the black door but could not open it.....He stood gazing at it, desperate for entry.....Something he wanted with all his heart lay beyond.....A prize beyond his dreams....." Doesn't this remind you of the Mirror of Erised and what it showed Harry.....the most desperate desire of his heart? His family! Is this possibly a hint as to what is beyond the black door?
- - - - - - - - - -
FCBarca - Feb 15, 2004 7:34 am (#58 of 64)
Choices, the door Harry is referring to there is the entrance to the DoM, not the door Dumbledore was talking about. And it was what Voldemort wanted, not Harry, as he was sharing Voldemort's thoughts at the time. The Prophecy is what Voldemort wanted most, and because Harry was sharing Voldemort's thoughts, it was also what Harry wanted most.
- - - - - - - - - -
Choices - Feb 16, 2004 3:02 pm (#59 of 64)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I'm not sure I agree with you FC - I'll have to think about it some more.
- - - - - - - - - -
FCBarca - Feb 16, 2004 3:13 pm (#60 of 64)
Honestly Choices, if you re-read it, I'm sure you'll find that he is talking about the entrance to the DoM. He says, when he realizes in the dreams where he is (the DoM), that the corridor has torch brackets on the wall, and that is what he says he is when he reaches the door in the dream about the object beyond his wildest dreams. And the corridor leading to the entrance to the DoM has torch brackets on the walls.
- - - - - - - - - -
Choices - Feb 17, 2004 7:13 pm (#61 of 64)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I have no doubt about which door it is FC - the door to the Dept. of Mysteries. It is the object he desires with all his heart - I'm not sure that thought is entirely Voldemorts. I think it could also be partly Harry's. I'm not even sure Harry is aware of what it is, but I feel that he knows (perhaps on a subconscience level) that there is something inside the DOM that he desperately desires. It could also be something different from what Voldemort is seeking. (Just my opinion.)
- - - - - - - - - -
FCBarca - Feb 18, 2004 3:23 am (#62 of 64)
Okay, Choices. It's just that his scar was prickling at the time, and that happens when Voldemort is either in his head or around (and Voldemort was dreaming of the door at the time, as it is unlikely Harry was dreaming of the place on his own.) But, there isn't actually anything solid there to contradict you, so...
- - - - - - - - - -
Choices - Feb 18, 2004 10:44 am (#63 of 64)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Yes, his scar was prickling and that is why I said I thought perhaps that thought was not entirely Voldemorts. I know Voldemort was thinking about the DOM, but I also suspect that Harry may want something that is in the DOM himself - something he may not even know what it is yet.
- - - - - - - - - -
Kip Carter - Mar 20, 2004 3:06 am (#64 of 64)
co-Host with Steve on the Lexicon Forum, but he has the final say as the Owner!
I found some posts above interesting and felt that this thread should be temporarily saved from the automatic deletion cycle and changed its status to Permanent; however I have stopped the discussion on this thread and moved it to the folder =+=+= Archived Threads: Since Reorganization =+=+= for the editors to decide its fate and possibly archive it or part of it eventually.
As this thread stood shortly after 2:00 am Saturday 20 March 2004 and with no posts since February 18th, it would have been automatically deleted in one hour. Therefore I saved it for future use.
To avoid any conflicts, I have closed out this thread to further discussion here.
Ole, a very thought-provoking essay. I think you may be on the right track, but I'm not totally sold that the "thing" or "force" behind the door has such a clear-cut moral component to it. I like the idea though that it may be the driver, so to speak, or power source for all human consciousness. I'm too much a believer in free will to give up JKR's major theme of "Choices."
Gawd, I hope it doesn't turn out to be some sort of "Matrix-y" thing or master control board. Even the "Force" business is inching too close to Star Wars.
Thanks for posting and welcome to the Forum !
Ciao. Barb
- - - - - - - - - -
Liz Mann - Oct 14, 2003 9:20 am (#2 of 64)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
You make some good points, Ole S. What on earth could be behind that door???? The description of it Dumbledore gave is really intriguing! "Something more wonderful and terrible than death, than human intelligence and the forces of nature"? Hm...
- - - - - - - - - -
Romulus - Oct 14, 2003 10:17 am (#3 of 64)
I could be wrong - I don't have my books with me - but I think Dumbledore was talking metaphorically? I thought he meant the human heart?
- - - - - - - - - -
Choices - Oct 14, 2003 10:52 am (#4 of 64)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Perhaps in that room is something like the tree in the Garden of Eden, it contains the knowledge of good and evil - that would definitely involve a choice.
- - - - - - - - - -
Ole S - Oct 14, 2003 11:59 am (#5 of 64)
Hey! Thank you for responding! The reason I thought that whatever is beyond the door has a moral element to it was that it opposes Voldemort- who is the epitomy of amoral. "Voldemort could not bear to be in a body so filled with a force he detests." Maybe it is purely metaphorical- like the human heart, but I am hesitant to go there because the human heart has choice and is both amoral and moral- Voldemort's heart chose evil. And I really hope that it won't turn into something Star Warsesque or matrix-y. If it is some sort of force or god we know it is extremely powerful, but reclusive- if the only face it presents to the magical people is a closed door it certainly is not looking for attention! I hope its just about love! (= Here's a crazy thought: I wonder if the open veil is the opposite of the closed door- like if they broke down the door all the love or whatever is behind it would be sucked into the oblivion behind the veil forever and so this is why the door must always be sealed. Reminds me of the dust and the abyss in Philip Pullman's Amber Spyglass. Thanks! Ole
- - - - - - - - - -
schoff - Oct 14, 2003 1:23 pm (#6 of 64)
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Edited by Oct 14, 2003 1:24 pm
I posted this on the "Wands" thread (in response to why Harry's wand overtook Voldemort's and not the other way around), but thought I'd mention it here (with some edits):
Well, Harry does have a very high ability to concentrate on a specific object or thought. That's possibly the reason why he could force the beam back to Voldemort's wand. I'm still impressed that he managed to completely forget his leg was nearly broken during the graveyard scene, and that he was able to run to Cedric on it. He did this in CoS, too--when he'd been injured by the basilisk. Not to mention his ability to summon a Patronus under the most extreme of circumstances. Isn't that also the reason Voldemort couldn't stay in Harry's body? Because Harry started focusing on Sirius and his love for him?
I think Harry can focus more than Voldemort can. Maybe something to do with concentration lies behind the door? Although I can't figure out how it's "more wonderful and terrible than death, than human intelligence and the forces of nature".
- - - - - - - - - -
Detail Seeker - Oct 14, 2003 3:20 pm (#7 of 64)
Quod tempus non sanat, sanat ferrum,... so prepare
the citation "more wonderful and terrible than death, than human intelligence and the forces of nature"leads to an answer to Oles proposal, that, whatever is behind that door, it must be highly morally loaded. This shows very much, that this must be loaded with a highly ambiguous force. Otherwise it would make no sense to lock it away. Only the right person(s) can be allowed to use it, in the wrong hands results may be devastating. So the problem is, who decides, when to open it to whom. That does, als, bring me no closer to a solution, but perhaps, somebody else.
- - - - - - - - - -
J-D - Oct 14, 2003 3:33 pm (#8 of 64)
When DD said "more wonderful and terrible than death, than human intelligence and the forces of nature" I guess I interpreted it a bit differntly. I took it 100% literally. Like in GOF when HArry's in the 3rd task of the Tri-Wizard Tourney and had to get past the sphinx, the 2nd clue is "the middle of the middle and the end of the end" This literally meant the letter "d". I think the same applies for DD's quote. It truly is more wonderful and terrible than death... The only thing I can think of that literally applies to that is truth. The truth about everything, knowledge. It is that which DD has so much of and which Harry must have as well.
- - - - - - - - - -
Hem Hem - Oct 14, 2003 10:29 pm (#9 of 64)
In case anybody feels compelled to check out our thread about this topic from July, here's the link: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
The thread was called "The Room Full of What?," and it had 15 posts.
Enjoy!
- - - - - - - - - -
popkin - Oct 14, 2003 11:10 pm (#10 of 64)
mother
Something Harry has in great quantities that Voldemort cannot fathom is heroism. Harry values other peoples lives to the point that he is willing to sacrifice himself to protect them. Voldemort could never live in the body of someone who would not go to extreme lengths to preserve his own life.
- - - - - - - - - -
shepherdess - Oct 15, 2003 8:58 am (#11 of 64)
55 year old mother of 3, step-mother of 2, grandmom to 3, living in Oklahoma
popkin,
That's close to what I was thinking.
What is "more wonderful and terrible than death, than human intelligence and the forces of nature"? As we've seen already in this thread, the answer to that depends on who's answering. The real question is: what does JKR think is "more wonderful and terrible than death, than human intelligence and the forces of nature"? What is she most in awe of? Is there a clue in the fact that she favors Gryffindor over other houses?
- - - - - - - - - -
schoff - Oct 15, 2003 9:06 am (#12 of 64)
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Edited by Oct 15, 2003 9:06 am
What about curiosity? Like Pandora's box? Or is that hope?
- - - - - - - - - -
virgoddess1313 - Oct 16, 2003 10:22 am (#13 of 64)
I have only the vaguest of idea what may be behind the door, but I have to agree with Hermione... it's something blibbering, no doubt (at least I think that's who said that... and that is what she said. My memory isn't always so great.)
What I wonder is how whatever is behind the door is contained. To me, it doesn't really sound like something tangible, and even with magic aid, how do they keep it there, or even have it there in the first place?
- - - - - - - - - -
::StinkerBell:: - Oct 16, 2003 3:22 pm (#14 of 64)
Use to be LongLiveSnuffles.....
I'm sort of scared to find out whats behind it. Something more powerful that death. Some thing Harry has lots of? I never thought Harry has lots of love, he grew up being hated and he hated others, he never learned to love.
- - - - - - - - - -
Liz Mann - Oct 16, 2003 4:45 pm (#15 of 64)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
Maybe it's morality. Harry certainly has more of it than Voldemort. Loads more! Then again, he's not exactly the most moral of people himself, when you take into consideration his actions when his temper flares, the fact that he wanted to kill Sirius (even if he couldn't bring himself to do it) and his constant rule-breaking.
- - - - - - - - - -
megfox - Oct 18, 2003 8:44 am (#16 of 64)
My name is Madeline Guinevere Fox, and I am pleased to make your aquaintance!
I think that Harry does have some love - he was, after all loved deeply enough by his mother that she died saving his life
- - - - - - - - - -
J-D - Oct 18, 2003 4:28 pm (#17 of 64)
I still think it's truth/infinite knowledge, it just seems like it's been a common thread in the book that it's not always good to know everything. "Wisdom is a horrible thing when it brings no profit to its professor" Quoting Oedipus Rex, I think the truth can be both greater and worse than death depending on how you look at it.
- - - - - - - - - -
Emily - Oct 18, 2003 7:37 pm (#18 of 64)
I agree with the knowledge idea, too. Could the knowledge that Harry will have, and that Voldemort knows not be how you vanquish someone who can'tbe killed? No, I really am pretty serious about this. I thought of love at first, but decided it was too obvious.
Edit: I've come up with two points against myself.
1) Voldemort has plenty of knowledge, so it can't be knowledge in gnerall. It would have to be just the specific knowledge of how you destroy someting that technically can't be destroyed.
2)If it were knowledge, wouldn't the brains that Ron came upon be in there too, instead of where Ron found them?
I wish we had a map of the DoM, so I could figure out if the brain room were adjacent to, or anywhere near, the loked room.
- - - - - - - - - -
Hem Hem - Oct 22, 2003 9:08 pm (#19 of 64)
It's a large glass tank full of floating hearts...it is, really.
And they attack when you "accio" them, too.
Sorry to all of you who read me post this same comment at both of the EZboard Forums, but I felt that I couldn't try "take 3" of this discussion without my own two knuts.
- - - - - - - - - -
zixyer - Oct 22, 2003 9:23 pm (#20 of 64)
So Harry's going to kill Voldemort with a barrage of flying hearts? How disgusting.
- - - - - - - - - -
Hem Hem - Oct 22, 2003 9:26 pm (#21 of 64)
No worse than Ron getting attacked by a brain, is it?
- - - - - - - - - -
Susurro Notities - Oct 23, 2003 6:20 am (#22 of 64)
Bloodier, much Bloodier!
- - - - - - - - - -
timrew - Oct 23, 2003 3:04 pm (#23 of 64)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
So Voldie is going to die of a heart attack? Sorry - I know I've said it before!
- - - - - - - - - -
mischa fan - Oct 23, 2003 9:06 pm (#24 of 64)
Easy being green, it is not
Yes you have Tim, but I groaned just as loud as the first time I read it
- - - - - - - - - -
Susurro Notities - Oct 23, 2003 10:01 pm (#25 of 64)
Voldemort has a heart?!?
- - - - - - - - - -
::StinkerBell:: - Oct 23, 2003 10:03 pm (#26 of 64)
Use to be LongLiveSnuffles.....
Maybe on Chistmas Day, Voldmorts heart will grow three times larger, Do Da Da Do, here comes Chistmas day...... Sorry, Dr. Suess.......
- - - - - - - - - -
Neville Potter - Oct 26, 2003 2:17 pm (#27 of 64)
It's got to be love or something similar. It wasn't knowledge that stopped Voldy possessing Harry in the Atrium. Harry had been thinking that he would see Sirius again, and it says
"his heart swelled with emotion". That was when Voldy let go. Think, it's his HEART. What emotion does the heart have? Especially when he was thinking about Sirius!
- - - - - - - - - -
Tomoé - Nov 10, 2003 9:03 am (#28 of 64)
Back in business
'The Truth.' Dumbledore sighed. 'It is a beautiful and terrible thing, and should therefore be treated with great caution. (PS p.216)
If there is one thing Voldemort cannot understand, it is love. (PS p.216)
Truth or love ? DD's definition of Truth is closer to DD's definition of what lay beyond the closed door, but love is a power that Voldemort do not possess. Or maybe Harry knows something that will help him to vanquish the dark lord.
- - - - - - - - - -
SarcasticGinny - Nov 17, 2003 10:57 am (#29 of 64)
Hmm, maybe it's some form of both love and truth. Say the room contains something that pertains to the truth ABOUT love. Anyone has the ability to feel love, but not everyone has the ability to understand it. A deeper understanding of how love works can be both beautiful or terrible depending on the reasons for, and results of loving. There's no doubt that Lily loved Harry, that Harry loved Sirius, and on the flipside, you can argue that servants as devout as Bellatrix and Barty Jr. display some warped form of love for Lord Voldemort. The truth about love and its workings could be enormously powerful if Harry were to know, understand, and master it. Is this a bunch of mumbo-jumbo, or am I making any sense? I'm hoping its the latter, but the ammount of papers I've had garbling my mind this week makes me wonder. Just a thought...
- - - - - - - - - -
Lenka - Nov 19, 2003 11:54 am (#30 of 64)
ahhhh essays
It's love. I've never questioned that, and was actually surprised at this whole thread. Concider:
"...power the Dark Lord know's not-"
"But I don't!" said Harry, in a strangled voice. "I haven't powers he hasn't got, I couldn't fight the way he did tonight, I can't posess people or - or kill them -"
'There is a room in the Department of Mysteries,' interrupted Dumbledore, 'that is kept locked at all times. It contains a force that is at once more wonderful and more teribll than death, than human intelligence, than the forces of nature. It is also, perhaps, the most mysterious of the many subjects that reside there. It is the power held within that room that you posess is such quantities and which Voldemort has not at all. That power took you to save Sirius tonight. That power also saved you from possesion by Voldemort, because he could not bear to reside in a body so full of the force he detests. In the end, it mattered not that you could not close your mind. It was your heart that saved you."
1) The "power" that took Harry to go save Sirius tonight was love - Harry loved Sirius and could not watch him suffer and not do anything.
2) The power Voldemort detests is most likely love, becuase it (Lily's love for Harry) deprived him of a body for over ten years and causes "pain beyond pain". Also, Quirell can't touch harry because his mother's love (and sacrifice) is protecting him.
3) The moment when Voldy fled harry was when Harry wanted Dumbledore to kill him so he could be with Sirius again. This could be, I admit, interpreted as hope, but I think it's love.
4) Heart is often associated with love, and DD said it was Harry's heart that saved him.
5) Someone said the force is what JK thinks is "more wonderful and more teribll than death, than human intelligence, than the forces of nature." The idea of the love of Harry's mother saving Harry, and that Quirell couldn't touch Harry because he was marked by "such love", is already present in the books. Clearly, JK believes in truth, choices, and bravery, but I think above all, she shows it is the love inside Harry that makes it imposible for evil to touch him.
6) Also, it's a very deep idea, knowing the only force that can save the world from Voldy is love. It fits nicelly into the "we are as strong as we are united, and as weak as we are divided" and the "but if in our hearts we stay united" theory.
Now, as for more wonderfull and terrible than death. Well, more wonderfull than death - love makes life worth it. More terrible than death - Loosing people you love is worse than dying yourself. As for the forces of nature and human inteligence, well, no earthquake can be worse than seeigh someone you love die, and no sunny day can be better than being with the people you love, inteligence isn't more wonderfull than love (take that, Hermione
) and it can't be worse than losing the people you love. I think Harry has lots of love, even towards people he doesn't know. I think that's what Hermione mistakes for his "Hero" complex. He simply doesn't have the heart to leave others to die. That's why he goes into the CoS although he doesn't really know or like Ginny, that's why he goes to save Ron in PoA, that's why he lets Pettigrew live, that's why he saves the Fleur Girl, tells Cedric about the dragons, goes to MoM to save Sirius...
Alright, I think this post is a bit too long and might get cut off at the end.
Lenka
- - - - - - - - - -
::StinkerBell:: - Nov 19, 2003 4:16 pm (#31 of 64)
Use to be LongLiveSnuffles.....
What the world needs now, is love, sweet love....
- - - - - - - - - -
timrew - Nov 19, 2003 4:29 pm (#32 of 64)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Ah, Love! It makes the world go round, it's a many spleandoured thing, it means never having to say you're sorry, it's all you need!
- - - - - - - - - -
Tomoé - Nov 19, 2003 9:02 pm (#33 of 64)
Back in business
Thanks for taking the time to put the evidences together Lenka ^_^ . Love seem more likely than Truth now.
Could Harry use a spell based on love, something like the patronus spell is based on happyness, or the inforgivable curses are based on ... er ... hate and sadistic pleasure. Will Harry create a spell that block AK ? Or a spell that bind Big V's magical power ? Or cause the dark lord to feel love again (if he have ever felt it ¬_¬ ). Or protect the entire world form Lord Thingy as he get kill.
- - - - - - - - - -
Susurro Notities - Nov 19, 2003 9:08 pm (#34 of 64)
"What's so funny about Peace, Love, and Understanding?"
- - - - - - - - - -
Tomoé - Nov 19, 2003 10:34 pm (#35 of 64)
Back in business
That's a bit clichéd, don't you think ^_^ . But yes it could be vanquish with love, compassion andunderstanding -_- .
- - - - - - - - - -
Susurro Notities - Nov 19, 2003 10:44 pm (#36 of 64)
Edited by Nov 19, 2003 9:44 pm
Exactly Mr. Costello's point. Clichéd yet true and wonderful.
- - - - - - - - - -
Tomoé - Nov 20, 2003 12:00 am (#37 of 64)
Back in business
But to come to understanding, love and compassion, you must first disarmed lord Voldie, because he won't come "quietly" if you ask him to do so.
- - - - - - - - - -
Scales - Nov 20, 2003 10:28 pm (#38 of 64)
aka Miss Granger
Just want to say that I love what everyone is saying and add a bit...
I think that it is not only the love that Harry has for everyone, but also the love that everyone has for him. No one truely loves Voldemort, not even Bellatrix or Peter. They have a strange love and devotion to him, but not the true love that comes deep from the heart and mind. Also, he was an orphan who never knew love from anyone. He never had anyone who cared about him or loved him the way Harry does. Even the Dursleys may act as though they don't love Harry, but I am sure there is a deep, sort of, hidden love for him and no matter how many threats from DD there were they would have already thrown him out, or never taken him from the begining. They are mean people, but not down right nasty, hating like Voldi. It's the love that Harry has for everyone, and the love that everyone was probably feeling for Harry at the time when Voldi tried to take him over. All that love at once probably shot thru Voldi like a lightening bolt.
Yes, I believe it some form of love behind that door.
- - - - - - - - - -
Choices - Dec 9, 2003 11:45 am (#39 of 64)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I definitely think that LOVE is the key. That bit of blood that Voldemort got from Harry in the graveyard at the end of GoF is going to be very important (IMO) in the defeat of Voldemort by Harry - the love of Harry's mother that protects him is in that blood somehow and now Voldemort has a bit of that love in him. I think it will grow and weaken the evil in Voldemort now and the power of that love will bring about his eventual downfall.
- - - - - - - - - -
Little Miss Question-All - Dec 11, 2003 6:25 pm (#40 of 64)
"Harry values other peoples lives to the point that he is willing to sacrifice himself to protect them. - Popkin
"I think Harry has lots of love, even towards people he doesn't know. I think that's what Hermione mistakes for his "Hero" complex. He simply doesn't have the heart to leave others to die." - Lenka
My first thought upon reading the end of OotP was that it was love. In fact, I never considered anything else until reading this thread. But the heroism point, which has been drilled into us throughout the books, I think is the most convincing evidence that it has to be love. After all, the greatest love you can show is to give your life for another person.
Of course, the question remains, how can love be locked in a room? I guess we'll just have to wait and see!
- - - - - - - - - -
Little Ginny - Dec 13, 2003 11:13 am (#41 of 64)
I don't know whether any of you have watched the first Indiana Jones movie- sorry, don't know its title at the moment, was something about a quest, if I remember correctly- but nearly at the end, when the Nazis try to open the case that contains the Ten Commandments, a kind of Divine force comes out and kills all who do not close their eyes. I thought maybe this love force might act the same way.
- - - - - - - - - -
timrew - Dec 14, 2003 3:56 pm (#42 of 64)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Little Ginny, it was called "The Raiders Of The Lost Ark".
I think you're right. But I think the 'Love Force' will only affect people like Voldemort or his Death Eaters, who have no love in their hearts.
People like Harry, who have love and compassion for others won't be affected.
- - - - - - - - - -
Little Ginny - Dec 17, 2003 10:27 am (#43 of 64)
Yes, of course there was no quest, sorry, I thought the German title.
Well, I think that the trick is that you must know with what you are dealing beforehand. I know that sounds very strange, but I don't know how to put it. It's like you said, timrew, that you have to have love, but I think that you also need to be aware of it, and appreciate it.
- - - - - - - - - -
freshwater - Dec 27, 2003 9:08 pm (#44 of 64)
Connections, speculation, discussion: the best part of HP reading! Check out the on-going HP Lex Forum series re-read! Currently reading GoF...
When I first read DD's explanation of the power Harry has that LV does not, I thought of it as love/compassion. After reading this thread, I'd also add self-denial...perhaps it is only one of the many aspects of love, but it would be in direct opposition to LV's character which is totally self-indulgent, self-absorbed and selfish.
- - - - - - - - - -
Little Ginny - Dec 29, 2003 5:07 am (#45 of 64)
Edited by Kip Carter Dec 29, 2003 5:26 am
I edited this post and changed some abbreviations to actual words. The changes are in italics. - Kip
I just re-read that passage yesterday, and I noticed that "love" wasn't mentioned once. Even Dumbledore didn't say "the fact that your mother loved you so much that she died for you", he says just "The fact that our mother died for you" (paraphrasing, it's in Book 5, of course, I think the chapter is "The lost prophecy", but I don't have it with me now, sorry).
It seemed to me as if JK Rowling was deliberately avoiding the word "love", but almost paraphrased it, so that we all would think it was love, but in the end it will be something totally different.
- - - - - - - - - -
FCBarca - Dec 31, 2003 6:01 am (#46 of 64)
I would just like to say the force behind the door is love, or at least, all the 'evidence' points to love. What I think people may not realize is that the power behind the door isn't necessarily what Harry will use to kill Voldemort. I'm not critisising anyone, it's just I think some people may believe this power is what will kill Voldemort because Harry has it and Voldemort doesn't. Maybe it will be used to kill Voldemort, but the book never said that, all it said that the reason why Voldemort couldn't kill Harry at Godric's Hollow is because Harry has got 'power the Dark Lord knows not' (Chapter 37), which is the Love that Lily gave him by sacrificing herself to save him, and the reason Harry couldn't be possessed is love for another person, Sirius. Voldemort detest's love.
Remember, the Prophecy knew that was going to happen, just as it knew Voldemort will mark Harry as an equal. It knew Voldemort would lose his powers that night, because the Prophecy said 'and the Dark Lord 'will' mark him as his equal, but he 'will' have powers the Dark Lord knows not'.
I just thought I would mention that, as it seemed important that people realized that the power behind the door is what saved Harry, not necessarily the power what is going to kill Voldemort.
- - - - - - - - - -
Q. Trimble - Jan 23, 2004 2:24 pm (#47 of 64)
I'm also of the opinion that the force behind the door is not love. Harry is certainly capable of it but I don't this is what has consistently saved him or the only thing that Voldemort lacks. I think the force is faith.
JKR has created a world where nothing is certain, not even love, which can be brewed up in a potions lab and certain people like Riddle and Snape have just not been given. Thus I don't regard Voldemort as the real villain of the series; the worst thing that Harry has to deal with is the ever present attitudes of people like the Malfoys (which actually means 'bad faith' doesn't it?) And his only weapon against all the confusion is his faith in the goodness of the world. Voldemort fears death because he believes that this is the end and thus he doesn't recognise the value of worldly things, which, to him, will all eventually perish.
Notice that it is Harry's certainty that he will see Sirius again when Voldemort is about to kill him that really makes him relinquish his possession of Harry. It is Faith that people like Dumbledore have in bucketloads and Voldemort has not at all. Isn't the greatest strength of people like Dumbledore, Hagrid and Luna that they believe and trust where others don't? That they have faith in everyone. Clealy the dementors, who rob a person of this are Voldemort's true allies and their ability to rob a person of an after life could very well be the 'fate worse than death' that has been mentioned.
Plus it would be really ironic for all those people who find the books immoral for promoting witchcraft over religion.
- - - - - - - - - -
Choices - Jan 23, 2004 2:44 pm (#48 of 64)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Well said, Q. Trimble, well said! You make some very good points and it will be interesting to see if you are correct.
- - - - - - - - - -
freshwater - Jan 23, 2004 4:46 pm (#49 of 64)
Connections, speculation, discussion: the best part of HP reading! Check out the on-going HP Lex Forum series re-read! Currently reading GoF...
I don't know if I agree with you completely, Q. Trimble, but you certainly present a persuasive and intriguing argument. Take 25 points for your house....Ravenclaw, right? :-)
- - - - - - - - - -
Dr Filibuster - Jan 23, 2004 5:07 pm (#50 of 64)
Sue, from Northwich, England.
Pay a visit to the socks thread.
Maybe the room is full of socks! odd socks (hell) for some, lovingly laundered socks (heaven) for others? Maybe Voldiemort has no socks but Harry has an abundance of them?
Q Trimble, your post made me think of something like the stable in the last Narnia book.
- - - - - - - - - -
FCBarca - Jan 24, 2004 6:44 am (#51 of 64)
But Q.Trimble, faith isn't the reason why Harry tried to save Sirius, it was love. Dumbledore said the power behind the door is what Harry used to try and save Sirius, which is love, not faith, as faith is the belief of something. Some good point's brought up though, and you obviously could be right about it.
- - - - - - - - - -
Choices - Jan 24, 2004 10:01 am (#52 of 64)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I think you could say perhaps it was faith, as well as love, that made Harry try to save Sirius. Lily and James put their faith in Sirius when they named him Harry's godfather. They had faith that Sirius would care for Harry if anything happened to them. Harry has faith that Sirius is innocent of the crime he is accused of and faith in Sirius as a good person. He has faith that Sirius would be there for him and would try to save him (Harry) if he was in a perilous situation. Yes, it was love that motivated Harry, but I think it was also his belief (faith)in Sirius that prompted him to act.
- - - - - - - - - -
timrew - Jan 24, 2004 4:01 pm (#53 of 64)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Doc (Sue), I think you have a point comparing the room in the MOM with the stable at the end of the Narnia books. To enter that stable was Hell for some, and Heaven for others, depending on what was in their hearts.
Maybe your fate is decided before you even open the door.
- - - - - - - - - -
Dr Filibuster - Jan 24, 2004 4:49 pm (#54 of 64)
Sue, from Northwich, England.
Thanks Tim. Rowling will make Voldemort accountable for his actions somehow.
We have already seen how the phoenix song can give strength to some and weaken others. How it affects you depends on what is within you, what kind of person you have chosen to be.
Perhaps Harry could walk through that room and be OK, even gain strength, but if Voldemort went in he would be tormented?
Have you heard of that story often mentioned in school assembley? Two indentical rooms full of people sat at feast laden tables. The people are not able to feed themselves because they have huge forks strapped to their arms and can't reach their own mouths. In one room the people are starving, tormented, crying out for help. In the other they are content, full and laughing. The second room have been feeding their companions. Of course, Voldemort would probably get everyone to feed him.
Other things spring to mind...Somebody mentioned the climax to Raiders of the Lost Ark, which reminds me of Pandora's box. Wasn't it hope that came out last? Doesn't Harry represent hope?
How about the Holy Grail, wasn't it only the purest person who would find it?...or does that fit in with the first book and finding the stone better?
Hmm, some jumbled thoughts there sorry to ramble, hope some things were relevant.
- - - - - - - - - -
Madame Librarian - Jan 24, 2004 5:29 pm (#55 of 64)
Dr. F, you've mentioned only 2 of the many quest legends this world has produced. At some level they are all the same story. JKR is taking the common elements and creating a unique and delightful mix that we call Harry Potter. I'm sooo curious how it's going to all play out. I am confident the ending--what's in the DoM, Snape's true nature, what's with Petunia, all of those burning issues--will resolve in a way that fits with all the myths and legends but in a truly creative way.
A question I ask myself is this: Is what's behind the closed door the solution to everything or is it simply (well, not simply, but you know what I mean) another tool or advantage for Harry to use against Voldie? In other words, if Harry can reach the door and open it, will everything be over and have a happy ending, or does he still have that final confrontation to survive, then he can get the door open?
Am I making any sense? Didn't get my Saturday nap, so am rambling.
Ciao. Barb
- - - - - - - - - -
Q. Trimble - Jan 25, 2004 8:05 am (#56 of 64)
I suppose you could say that faith and love are related, or that you can't have one without the other. It's just that I can see how Harry's faith might be of more use to him in a duel with Voldemort (assuming that this will be the climax of th series) as the source of Harry's courage if you like. I love the way that Dumbledore is just totally unconcerned when he faces Voldemort and always utterly confident that whatever happens to him someone will eventually defeat Voldemort.
I think, Madame Librarian, that the door might never actually be opened (JKR might leave it as one of those unanswered questions like she did with the veil in OotP) because I think it represents those mysteries that will always remain, well, mysteries. You know the great unknown, which some people will trust and others, like Voldemort, will always be terrified of.
- - - - - - - - - -
Choices - Feb 14, 2004 7:53 pm (#57 of 64)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
In rereading OotP, I noticed something interesting in the chapter titled Christmas on the Closed Ward. It is when Harry falls asleep after speaking with Phineas Nigellus....."he reached the black door but could not open it.....He stood gazing at it, desperate for entry.....Something he wanted with all his heart lay beyond.....A prize beyond his dreams....." Doesn't this remind you of the Mirror of Erised and what it showed Harry.....the most desperate desire of his heart? His family! Is this possibly a hint as to what is beyond the black door?
- - - - - - - - - -
FCBarca - Feb 15, 2004 7:34 am (#58 of 64)
Choices, the door Harry is referring to there is the entrance to the DoM, not the door Dumbledore was talking about. And it was what Voldemort wanted, not Harry, as he was sharing Voldemort's thoughts at the time. The Prophecy is what Voldemort wanted most, and because Harry was sharing Voldemort's thoughts, it was also what Harry wanted most.
- - - - - - - - - -
Choices - Feb 16, 2004 3:02 pm (#59 of 64)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I'm not sure I agree with you FC - I'll have to think about it some more.
- - - - - - - - - -
FCBarca - Feb 16, 2004 3:13 pm (#60 of 64)
Honestly Choices, if you re-read it, I'm sure you'll find that he is talking about the entrance to the DoM. He says, when he realizes in the dreams where he is (the DoM), that the corridor has torch brackets on the wall, and that is what he says he is when he reaches the door in the dream about the object beyond his wildest dreams. And the corridor leading to the entrance to the DoM has torch brackets on the walls.
- - - - - - - - - -
Choices - Feb 17, 2004 7:13 pm (#61 of 64)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I have no doubt about which door it is FC - the door to the Dept. of Mysteries. It is the object he desires with all his heart - I'm not sure that thought is entirely Voldemorts. I think it could also be partly Harry's. I'm not even sure Harry is aware of what it is, but I feel that he knows (perhaps on a subconscience level) that there is something inside the DOM that he desperately desires. It could also be something different from what Voldemort is seeking. (Just my opinion.)
- - - - - - - - - -
FCBarca - Feb 18, 2004 3:23 am (#62 of 64)
Okay, Choices. It's just that his scar was prickling at the time, and that happens when Voldemort is either in his head or around (and Voldemort was dreaming of the door at the time, as it is unlikely Harry was dreaming of the place on his own.) But, there isn't actually anything solid there to contradict you, so...
- - - - - - - - - -
Choices - Feb 18, 2004 10:44 am (#63 of 64)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Yes, his scar was prickling and that is why I said I thought perhaps that thought was not entirely Voldemorts. I know Voldemort was thinking about the DOM, but I also suspect that Harry may want something that is in the DOM himself - something he may not even know what it is yet.
- - - - - - - - - -
Kip Carter - Mar 20, 2004 3:06 am (#64 of 64)
co-Host with Steve on the Lexicon Forum, but he has the final say as the Owner!
I found some posts above interesting and felt that this thread should be temporarily saved from the automatic deletion cycle and changed its status to Permanent; however I have stopped the discussion on this thread and moved it to the folder =+=+= Archived Threads: Since Reorganization =+=+= for the editors to decide its fate and possibly archive it or part of it eventually.
As this thread stood shortly after 2:00 am Saturday 20 March 2004 and with no posts since February 18th, it would have been automatically deleted in one hour. Therefore I saved it for future use.
To avoid any conflicts, I have closed out this thread to further discussion here.
Elanor- Hufflepuff Prefect
- Posts : 1440
Join date : 2011-02-19
Age : 52
Location : France
Similar topics» This forum has Polls! (poll is closed)
» What do you hope Pottermore is? (poll is closed)
» Which of the trio is your favourite? (a poll started by azi) Round 2 (poll is closed)
» What do you hope Pottermore is? (poll is closed)
» Which of the trio is your favourite? (a poll started by azi) Round 2 (poll is closed)
Page 1 of 1
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum