Posts 701 to 750

Mona Sat Sep 10, 2011 8:12 am

Sir Tornado - Jul 17, 2004 10:47 am (#701 of 2971)

Don't worry haymoni, if Voldemort takes Vernon; I swear I won't shed any tears.

Paulus Maximus - Jul 17, 2004 11:24 am (#702 of 2971)
Edited Jul 17, 2004 12:29 pm

While you still call home the place where your mother's blood dwells, there you cannot be touched or harmed by Voldemort. (OotP, US 836)

You were in more danger than perhaps anyone but myself realized. Voldemort had been vanquished hours before, but his supporters- and many of them are almost as terrible as he- were still at large, angry, desperate, and violent. (OotP, Us 835).

I suppose that this means that Harry must have had some protection from Voldemort's followers as well.

On the other hand, if it were the same blood protection against Voldemort, no Death Eater should be able to touch him...

Sir Tornado - Jul 17, 2004 11:27 am (#703 of 2971)

Well, I reckon we should ask Steve. He's the Guru.

Round Pink Spider - Jul 17, 2004 1:54 pm (#704 of 2971)

I meant that if Voldie had Dudley or Petunia kidnapped, Vernon might force Harry to "get out of the house and don't come back without him/her." If the DEs managed to lure the Order away first with someone who LOOKED like Harry...

Luke E.A. Lockhart - Jul 17, 2004 1:58 pm (#705 of 2971)

If Dudley or Petunia was captured, Harry would go to save them, because he's a pure, uncomplicated hero type. Vernon might try to force him, but it wouldn't be neccesary.

Paulus Maximus - Jul 17, 2004 2:00 pm (#706 of 2971)

Harry now knows that his "saving people thing" is not always a good thing.

If the Dursleys were captured, Harry might see it as a trap.

S.E. Jones - Jul 17, 2004 2:10 pm (#707 of 2971)

I think the protection might go both ways, both protecting Harry and Petunia, if not Dudley. Dumbledore referred to it as a pact at one point. A 'pact' would infer an agreement on the part of multiple parties where each party is recieving some benefit of some kind. I think it would be very foolish of Dumbledore to cast a charm on Petunia and Harry that could be so easily broken by Petunia getting killed, especially considering how many people in the wizarding world know where Harry lives and that there were Voldemort supports still at large, as well as Voldemort himself (and Dumbledore knew he was coming back eventually). Lily's blood acts as a shield for Harry, according to Dumbledore, and I'm sure it does the same for Petunia if for no other purpose than to preserve the charm. Dudley may be a way around the charm, if he isn't protected, being too far removed from Lily but still connected to Petunia, or Vernon could be a way around it being part of Petunia's family/home but not a part of the blood on which the pact is based.

MrsGump - Jul 17, 2004 4:23 pm (#708 of 2971)

S.E. Jones said "Dumbledore referred to it as a pact at one point. A 'pact' would infer an agreement on the part of multiple parties where each party is recieving some benefit of some kind"

Very good point. That might also help explain Petunia's howler and what might have been in the "last" that she needed to remember. If they break the pact, there might be negative outcome, which is why Petunia changed her mind about kicking Harry out.

Hollywand - Jul 17, 2004 6:26 pm (#709 of 2971)

Hmmm, Mrs Gump, you raise an interesting possibility. What if Petunia does something in book six to break the pact with Harry? Yikes, that could spell (pun intended) double indeminity. A clever trick by the Death Eaters? Pressure from Vernon or Dudley? Hmmmm.

Paulus Maximus - Jul 17, 2004 10:41 pm (#710 of 2971)

Pressure from Vernon wasn't enough in the fifth book.

Pressure from Dudley might be enough in a future book...

Sticky Glue - Jul 18, 2004 1:19 am (#711 of 2971)

I had posted this in a different thread - but Loony Lupin suggested I post it here, so here goes.

I just wanted to get others thoughts on this: Until OotP, I had thought that Harry was one of, if not the only wizard that was related to all 4 of the founding members of Hogwarts - because he was so hard for the sorting hat to place, he would have fitted well into any of the houses. But in Ootp it was said that Tom was the last decendent of Slytherin. Butr maybe Harry is related to the other 3 and with the attack on him as a baby transferring some of the powers he was given a link to Slytherin as well. I think he is the key to uniting the houses.

Paulus Maximus - Jul 18, 2004 1:27 am (#712 of 2971)

I guess I'll repost my response to that idea, as well.

I think it runs contrary to the spirit of the books, as Albus constantly reminds us that it matters much less what a person is born than what that person makes of his life.

Sure, Harry might be a descendent of a Hogwart or three, but I think that, in the long run, his ancestry will be irrelevant.

S.E. Jones - Jul 18, 2004 1:27 am (#713 of 2971)

Maybe he was just so hard to place because of the connection with Voldemort. I think the Sorting Hat can "look inside your head" and see your underlying personality, it might even ask you questions (such as it tempting Harry with Slytherin) to see how you answer (like when you take sorting quizzes on fan sites) to help determine gray areas. It may have thus read some of Voldemort's personality traits for a moment or something, which confused it, and thus it took a little longer to sort Harry. Or, it could've just taken longer to get underneath the "mask" he shows people to his real underlying personality, since Harry is so introverted. This could also explain why Neville's took a good bit of time. I don't think Harry's related to all three other founders, though....

schoff - Jul 18, 2004 1:31 am (#714 of 2971)
Edited Jul 18, 2004 2:34 am

Actually, Tom is the last remaining ancestor of Slytherin (CS 18 332 US). A matter that has had some debate around here. If it's true, then there's still a chance Harry might have some Slytherin blood in him.

But you're right, Harry does exhibit qualities of all Houses, and the Sorting Hat did stress they would need to be united in OOP. Perhaps Harry will be the one to unite them.

S.E. Jones - Jul 18, 2004 2:15 am (#715 of 2971)
Edited Jul 18, 2004 3:17 am

Actually, it is supposed to be descendent. JKR has said so a few times, most recently on her website:

Scholastic interview #2, October 2000:
Q: Harry Potter for grownups again! Is Voldemort the last remaining ancestor of Slytherin, or the last remaining descendent of Slytherin?
A: Ah, you spotted the deliberate error. Yes, it should read "descendent." That's been changed in subsequent editions. (Keep hold of the "ancestor" one, maybe it'll be valuable one day!)

JKRowling.com, 2004 (Rumors section):
R: Voldemort is Harry’s real father/grandfather/close relative of some description.
A: No, no, no, no, no. You lot have been watching too much Star Wars. James is DEFINATELY Harry’s father. Doesn’t everybody Harry meets say ‘you look just like your father’? And hasn’t Dumbledore already told Harry that Voldemort is the last surviving descendent of Salazar Slytherin? Just to clarify - this means that Harry is NOT a descendent of Salazar Slytherin.

That last quote also clears up that "Harry is NOT a descendent of Salazar Slytherin"....

Sir Tornado - Jul 18, 2004 3:27 am (#716 of 2971)

I agree with Sarah.

Hollywand - Jul 18, 2004 5:28 am (#717 of 2971)

To me, the Sorting Hat question has always been a parable for Harry about power. The Sorting Hat sees that he has extremely powerful potential. Lust for individualistic short-term power corrupts (Voldemort). Tempered selfless power transcends (Dumbledore). I bet, as Harry gains more inidividual power in the next books, he will really struggle with not allowing his new found strength to corrupt him.

Eponine - Jul 18, 2004 6:31 am (#718 of 2971)

I'm just going to play devil's advocate for a minute. I don't for one minute believe that Harry is related to Voldy or Slytherin, but there is a distinctive difference between descendent and ancestor. For example, I am a direct descendent of Sir Frances Drake's brother. I am an ancestor of Drake himself. Technically, I am still (distantly) related to Drake, but I am not a descendent. Any of his descendents would be distant distant distant distant relatives. Not enough to make any sort of difference at all, but still related nonetheless. So JKR (to my knowledge) has never said Harry isn't an ancestor, just not a descendent.

P.S. Still don't think Harry's related though.

Sir Tornado - Jul 18, 2004 10:36 am (#719 of 2971)

Eponine, are you really related with Sir Francis Drake? If so, I would like you to know that I always admired Sir Francis Drakes' courage and Intelligence and tactical brilliance.

vball man - Jul 18, 2004 11:13 am (#720 of 2971)

You are his descendant; he is your ancestor.

You are not an ancestor of Drake. Drake is an ancestor of you.

schoff - Jul 18, 2004 11:32 am (#721 of 2971)
Edited Jul 18, 2004 12:38 pm

No, Eponine is not a descendant of Drake. Drake is not Eponine's ancestor.

Eponine is a descendent of Drake's brother.

Edited to add: I am still trying to figure out what definitions 2&3 mean. Do they help?

Edited again to add to the below post: Dumbledore's the one who made the comment, not Tom Riddle.

Sir Tornado - Jul 18, 2004 11:34 am (#722 of 2971)

Well, the thing about Riddle saying he was ancestor of Slytherin, well, it was a conversation they were having. So, Tom might have wanted to say descendent but said ancestor just like Epionine did here. Just a red Herring. But then, what does this have to do with Harry? Nothing. Will someone please steer the focus back on Harry please?

--THANKS--

Eponine - Jul 18, 2004 2:01 pm (#723 of 2971)

Yeah, I realized that a while ago that I had mistyped, but still. Sorry!

S.E. Jones - Jul 18, 2004 2:31 pm (#724 of 2971)

Schoff: I am still trying to figure out what definitions 2&3 mean. Do they help?

They mean the same thing as the fist definintion, basically.

\An"ces*tor\, n. [OE. ancestre, auncestre, also ancessour; the first forms fr. OF. ancestre, F. anc[^e]tre, fr. the L. nom. antessor one who goes before; the last form fr. OF. ancessor, fr. L. acc. antecessorem, fr. antecedere to go before; ante before + cedere to go. See {Cede}, and cf. {Antecessor}.]
1. One from whom a person is descended, whether on the father's or mother's side, at any distance of time; a progenitor; a fore father.

2. (Biol.) An earlier type; a progenitor; as, this fossil animal is regarded as the ancestor of the horse.
(A prototype; It means the horse is descended from this fossil ancestor; the dinosaur is the ancestor of the bird, etc.)

3. (Law) One from whom an estate has descended; -- the correlative of heir.
(It is who you inherit from where the 'heir' replaces 'descendent'; the house was inherited from his ancestor...)

Does that help?

Eponine - Jul 18, 2004 2:34 pm (#725 of 2971)

Too late to edit, but I was just going to say that the point of my orginial post was that according to what JKR has said, Harry could still be related to Slytherin, just not a descendent. But I don't think that he is.

S.E. Jones - Jul 18, 2004 2:47 pm (#726 of 2971)
Edited Jul 18, 2004 3:55 pm

No... If he's not a descendent then he can't be related. Unless, of coarse, he goes back in time and fathers Salazar Slytherin or Slytherin's father, thus becoming Slytherins ancestor, but as my other quote points out, the word was supposed to be descendent, not ancestor....

EDIT: I see what you're saying, Harry could be related to Slytherin through Slytherin's brother, if he had one. But we haven't heard of one and that would be very soap-opera-ish for JKR.....

schoff - Jul 18, 2004 2:50 pm (#727 of 2971)

I'm still suspicious of the "deliberate error." I still bet it means something.

Susurro Notities - Jul 18, 2004 6:10 pm (#728 of 2971)

I agree schoff. What does this confusing "deliberate error" mean? It simply does not seem to make sense to me. If it was "deliberate" why was it corrected?

Sir Tornado - Jul 18, 2004 6:55 pm (#729 of 2971)

It was just a mistake Riddle did while he was speaking. Just like we sometimes do while typing.

schoff - Jul 18, 2004 7:24 pm (#730 of 2971)

Tornedo, it was Dumbledore that made the statement, not Riddle.

CS 18 332 US, copyright 1999:

You can speak Parseltongue, Harry, said Dumbledore calmly, "because Lord Voldemort--who is the last remaining ancestor of Salazar Slytherin--can speak Parseltongue...."

Sir Tornado - Jul 18, 2004 7:48 pm (#731 of 2971)

Ok, so Dumbledore made a mistake while talking. (I know this sounds a bit lame now)

Luke E.A. Lockhart - Jul 18, 2004 7:52 pm (#732 of 2971)

I seem to recall hearing that this passage was changed in a later revision, and I'm almost certain that JKR has said it was a mistake.

The giant squid - Jul 19, 2004 12:25 am (#733 of 2971)

I'm of a mind that the phrase "deliberate error" was a joke on JKR's part. As in, "I meant to do that...not a mistake at all...nope, nothing to see here, move along...."

Hollywand - Jul 20, 2004 4:46 am (#734 of 2971)

The heart is a metaphor that is often used throughout the book regarding Harry's journey. Medically, the heart is spoken of as having two "chambers". The heart a metaphor for the seat of emotion. Anyone think that a reference to the "Chamber of Secrets" might be a reference to the secrets Harry holds within his heart? Some related examples of heart metaphors:

Dumbledore tells Harry his heart saved him. JK refers to "the heart of the matter" in a recent comment on the book. Harry's Patronus is the Hart. Richard the Lion-Heart (courage of Gryffindor)

Egyptian heart scarabs inscribe the face on the heart; the core of the person.

The heart is actually divided in two sections that blood must pass through to be nourished.

I would appreciate learning of any other associations others might have.

Green Eyes - Jul 20, 2004 6:42 am (#735 of 2971)

I have always thought the Chamber scene in COS was symbolic and in more than one way. The first is the Sleeping Beauty symbolism - but I've already discussed that on the 'ship thread. I've discussed this symbolism and the following somewhere on a forum, I just can't remember where, so if it was here forgive the repetition.

The other symbolism I see suggests to us what/how Harry will defeat Voldemort. He is fighting a giant snake - which is representative of Voldemort. He receives the sword of Gryffindor from the sorting hat (his choice to not be in Slytherin). The sword represents the courage of a Gryffindor. So, with the courage of a Gryffindor, Harry will defeat Voldemort.

The fang and the poison are significant too because they suggests that something from Voldemort or some part of Voldemort's essence will nearly kill Harry. However, we can infer from the symbolism in COS that Harry will live and actually turn that thing that almost kills him into the vehicle for destroying Voldemort.

When Harry uses the fang to destroy the diary, it foreshadows a stabbing ...the ink/blood running. But we can also interpret what Harry does as a freeing from possession (in COS it's Ginny who is possessed) so does this mean that perhaps there is possible redemption for Tom Riddle? I don't know. It strikes me as somewhat Star Wars for this last thing to happen.

Obviously, Harry's heart is a big reason that he has the courage to do any of this. I like the heart chamber/chamber of secrets analogy. If the Chamber is to be seen as representative of Harry's heart, we could say that Tom Riddle/Voldemort is there (which may be true!) It would also suggest that Ginny is there too (for the 'ship thread)?! Obviously Harry's heart is full of courage (sword). You can apply this symbolism as well.

Susurro Notities - Jul 20, 2004 6:37 pm (#736 of 2971) Reply
Edited by Jul 20, 2004 7:38 pm

Hollywand
Just a note.
The heart is divided into four chambers. Not sure what difference that makes.

Hollywand - Jul 20, 2004 6:46 pm (#737 of 2971)
Edited Jul 20, 2004 7:48 pm

Thank you Green Eyes for some very eloquent analogies on Harry's symbolism. I have always felt, too, that Ginny will return to play a critical part---the name Ginerva, she is a "Weasley" as a unifier of Gryffindor and Slytherin,though not necessarily Harry's romantic partner, my sickles are on Draco for some reason.

And thanks to you Susurro, as well for the four chambers, yes, this is true, wonder if it could be the four houses? I had also thought of the upper and lower nodes, the way the heart generates its own little electrical storm as a metaphor for the war between Harry and LV, but thought maybe I'm taking this heart thing too far....thanks!

Sir Tornado - Jul 20, 2004 7:00 pm (#738 of 2971)

It strikes me as somewhat Star Wars for this last thing to happen. --Green Eyes

Green Eyes, I agree with most of your post. But there's a thing I'd like to say. Some people try to compare Star Wars and HP and Dearth Vadar and Voldemort. Well, while I won't deny that there are many similarities between Star Wars and HP; Vadar-Voldemort is not one of them. In Star Wars, Vadar works for a higher authority, i.e. the Emperor. In the end, he redeems himself by killing the Emperor and saving Luke. That cannot be the case in HP. I mean, Voldemort is the ultimate dark authority. So, I don't think Voldemort will redeem in the series. The only ending I can see for him is in the grave.

The heart is divided into four chambers. Not sure what difference that makes. --Susurro Notities

I don't know what four chambers mean, but the only 'four' we have are four houses and four champions. Just an idea...

Green Eyes - Jul 21, 2004 9:38 am (#739 of 2971)

Tornedo...I see what you mean and it was only a thought that it would be somewhat Star Wars-ish. Anakin Skywalker was also Luke's father and we know from JKR that Voldemort is not related to Harry as a father/grandfather so of course this makes it different.

I brought it up because I'm not sure that JKR is planning for Harry to physically kill Voldemort...it's just a gut feeling I have and after years of dealing with Literature I've learned to trust my gut. The prophesy does imply a killing but I'm just not sure.

Personally, I would like to see Harry slice off Voldemort's head and for Neville to strangle Belletrix with his bare hands...but that's my wishlist!

I like the comparison of the heart chambers to the four houses. The human heart has 2 ventricles and two atria. Some pump blood in and others pump it out...

potterfan79 - Jul 21, 2004 9:10 pm (#740 of 2971)

I agree, Green Eyes, that JKR might not be planning for Harry to murder, though I don't think the prophecy impies killing. In the final chapter of OotP Harry is thinking about the prophecy and is having a hard time grasping the idea that he will have to either die or murder Voldemort. I just get the feeling that this actually won't end up being the case. Harry gets very emotional, as we all know, but I don't think he has a vindictive, murderous nature. He's definitly thought about killing some people (i.e. Sirius before he knew the truth, Wormtail before he took pity and spared his life, Belatrix though he didn't have the staying power), but something has always kept him from going through with it. Could it be that the special power inside Harry is keeping him from carrying out such hateful actions?

The reason why I don't think JKR means for Harry to kill Voldemort is because she says somewhere on her website that she and Trelawney chose the words of the prophecy very carefully. It specifically says "...and either must die at the hand of the other for niether can live while the other survives..." (OotP p. 841 american edition). Dying at someone's hand doesn't necessarily mean he will kill or murder another. Voldemort obviously wants to murder Harry, but I'm not sure Harry really wants to murder Voldemort. When it comes right down to it, he doesn't even seem to really want to kill Voldemort. I think that was made clear in the scene where Harry is thinking about what's in his future. I'm really just babbling at this point, and I'm not sure if I making any sense. I'm not saying that there won't be a death at the end of the series, I just don't think Harry actually end up murdering Voldemort. I think it may come out as self defense like it was at the end of GoF. OK I've said enough on that topic.

I really like the whole heart chamber analogy, that seems really brilliant. When you all pick apart everything I've just said, please be kind Smile

Hollywand - Jul 21, 2004 10:05 pm (#741 of 2971)
Edited Jul 21, 2004 11:06 pm

Thanks PotterFan your post was great and I'm new to this site as well and the people here are WONDERFUL. I was used to being instantly trolled on other sites---makes a person fearful of posting. Welcome!!! Look at the Fan Site Award on the main page of the Lexicon, I think a crest from Rowling's site. It's a crest with some very interesting symbols that may relate to the heart theory.

Dan Wells - Jul 24, 2004 11:48 pm (#742 of 2971)
Edited Jul 25, 2004 12:50 am

Hi!

I hate to bring semantics into this, but whether or not Harry "murders" Voldemort is up to Harry. If Voldie ambushes Harry and there's another running battle and Harry kills Voldie, that's not murder. If Voldie has a wand to Hermione's throat and Harry gets a killing shot into Voldie and saves Hermione, that's not murder.

Murder would be Harry spotting Voldemort from behind and attacking without warning. Or Harry attacking out of pure malice or revenge.

In the book, it's Harry not the omniscient narrater or Dumbledore who uses the word "murder". This shows that Harry has a strong aversion to killing that does him a lot of credit. In time, perhaps, he'll learn that murder is not what the Prophesy requires.

Also, there's the fact that there's a nearly-declared war on -- a war that never truly ended between Harry and Voldemort. Nearly anything Harry did to Voldemort could be filed under self defense after what Voldemort's put Harry through. Before I get flamed, please note I did say "Nearly"!

I just wanted to point out that there is a huge difference between killing Voldemort per se, and murdering him. No one here would want Harry to become a murderer, but Harry could kill Voldemort and not have committed murder.

Thanks!

Dan Wells

Professor V - Jul 25, 2004 10:41 am (#743 of 2971)

Does anyone happen to know what happened to the snitch Harry had with him when he got banned from quidditch in OotP? I dont't think its particularly important, I'm just curious.

Luke E.A. Lockhart - Jul 26, 2004 8:01 am (#744 of 2971)

The problem is whether or not it is possible to kill a wizard in a duel without using AK. Using AK would probably count as murder, as would blasting Voldemort repeatedly with Stunning Spells while he is down. I suppose if Harry used a sword on Voldie it wouldn't be murder. Actually, now that I think about it - I think it's pretty likely he'll use the Sword of Gryffindor at the end.

Weeny Owl - Jul 26, 2004 10:58 am (#745 of 2971)

Actually, now that I think about it - I think it's pretty likely he'll use the Sword of Gryffindor at the end.

It's possible, but I think JKR is going to do something for the demise of Voldemort that isn't anything quite that simple.

Harry and Voldemort share a common bond or two... the scar where Voldemort transferred some of his powers, and Harry's blood.

It seems more likely that JKR will have Harry do something that destroys Voldemort but that doesn't have anything to do with a sword, the Avada Kedavra Curse, or anything we've seen so far. She's really too sneaky for it to be something obvious.

Round Pink Spider - Jul 26, 2004 11:17 am (#746 of 2971)

I think Harry will use the Sword again (seems pretty lame, only using it once), but I agree with Weeny Owl. Maybe the Sword will see some use in HBP. (Hey, do you suppose the Sword might be the key to learning something, rather than killing something?)

Hollywand - Jul 26, 2004 11:20 am (#747 of 2971)

Spidey, you mean a "double-edged sword"?

Round Pink Spider - Jul 26, 2004 11:25 am (#748 of 2971)

Oh, ha ha, LOL!

TomProffitt - Jul 26, 2004 11:57 am (#749 of 2971)

I think the reductor curse would smart. Didn't Lavender turn a table to dust with it?

Richard !!!Reid - Jul 26, 2004 12:44 pm (#750 of 2971)

Maybe the sword is the key to Godric Gryffindor's secret layer - or maybe a way to harnise his power. mmm... maybe not

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S.E. Jones - Jul 26, 2004 6:37 pm (#751 of 2971)

It seems to me that there are other killing curses besides the AK, though. I'm betting these curses just cause internal damage or something that then causes death. If you got to a hospital quickly enough, you'd be fine, and you could block them with another spell, thus they are not as feared as the AK which kills instantly and can't be blocked unless you use another solid object.....

Luke E.A. Lockhart - Jul 26, 2004 6:45 pm (#752 of 2971)

But how is using Avada Kedavra "more dark" than using one of these hypothetical curses?

S.E. Jones - Jul 26, 2004 7:25 pm (#753 of 2971)

I would assume, because it can't be blocked magically (i.e. with another spell) and because it actually kills (the spell is what pulls out your lifeforce versus a spell that does physical damage and you die from the damage).

shepherdess - Jul 26, 2004 8:54 pm (#754 of 2971)

In other words: with the others, you have a sporting chance at survival. With the AK, you don't.

Czarina II - Jul 27, 2004 7:21 am (#755 of 2971) Reply
Edited by Jul 27, 2004 8:22 am

Precisely.

Most other curses are like being shot in the leg or shoulder. You could easily die from complications.

The AK is like being shot directly in the heart or head. You don't stand a chance, hence why there is something special about Harry. (I know that there are some people who have survived being shot in the head, but it is quite rare.)

Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 27, 2004 7:32 am (#756 of 2971)

Speaking as a psychologist, surviving a shot in the head changes someone's personality big time. Would surviving Avada Kedavra have the same effect? If so how has Harry changed? Any ideas.

Or to word the question in another way. Did the transfer of powers by Voldemort when Harry survived AK have any effect on Harry's personality and if so why?

Paulus Maximus - Jul 27, 2004 10:05 am (#757 of 2971)
Edited Jul 27, 2004 11:06 am

Well, the AK marked Harry as Voldemort's equal (which probably meant a huge surge of power in infant Harry, and in my opinion that's what burned the house down) and after Voldemort's rebirth Harry had some insights into Voldemort's thoughts, and presumably vice-versa.

So yes, the AK did affect Harry, and although he was far more hot-headed after Voldemort's rebirth, I do not think it addled him completely.

I find it very odd that even when Harry and Voldemort both feel the same emotion (e.g. rage at the end of the fifth book), Harry still knows the difference between his own feelings and Voldemort's.

Luke E.A. Lockhart - Jul 27, 2004 11:41 am (#758 of 2971)

OK, so if I have a gun, and I shoot you in the stomach, giving you a decent chance of survival but causing you to go through a lot more pain and probably die anyway, that's worse than if I shoot you in the head, giving you almost no chance of survival but killing you instantly?

Padfoot - Jul 27, 2004 11:59 am (#759 of 2971)

Yes. Although both are obviously bad. At least you have given the person a chance to recover and as you say a decent chance of survival. A decent chance is better than no chance at all.

Round Pink Spider - Jul 27, 2004 12:11 pm (#760 of 2971)

Well, it's certainly a more evil thing for you, since you've absolutely deprived the other person of the choices he or she could yet have made in life. No chance to survive means no opportunity to change, no second chances, no chance to say goodbye to loved ones...I would guess for the victim the instant death would be a lot easier.

On the other hand, I don't think the average killer is thinking, well, I'll just shoot him in the stomach and maybe that way he'll survive and have a chance to change. If you want to give the other person a chance to survive I would think there'd be better ways than shooting him in the stomach. So (after that long ramble) I guess what I'm saying is, it's what's in the heart of the perpetrator that determines how "evil" an act is. How "criminal" it is (morals as opposed to law) is a separate judgment made by courts.

TomProffitt - Jul 27, 2004 12:28 pm (#761 of 2971)
Edited Jul 27, 2004 1:28 pm

Luke, Padfoot, RPS, et al,

I think what we're really discussing is why is Avada Kedavra ia an unforgivable curse and some other curse which can kill is not unforgivable.

The answer lies in intent. There is only one intent with the three unforgiveables, no other options for their use. The intent to harm another.

I imagine if I appeared before the Wizengamut for using the reductor curse on a table I'd get off. If I had used it on my Dad I would be off to Azkaban.

S.E. Jones - Jul 27, 2004 1:15 pm (#762 of 2971)

Luke: OK, so if I have a gun, and I shoot you in the stomach, giving you a decent chance of survival but causing you to go through a lot more pain and probably die anyway, that's worse than if I shoot you in the head, giving you almost no chance of survival but killing you instantly?

Actually, what I was saying is the other way around. It would be worse for you to use the AK (shooting someone in the head) than using a different killing curse (shooting someone in the stomach), because the second stands a chance at survival (with treatment), while the first one doesn't. Shooting isn't really a good example, though, because like a normal killing curse, it isn't necessarily the bullet that kills you but complications following. I think any curse can be aimed at major organs (such as with Hermione) and you recieve massive damage from them, but the AK sucks your lifeforce out much like a dementor sucking out your soul. There isn't any way to possibly recover, there isn't any way to block it with another spell. The only thing you can do is duck or hide behind something else that is solid. In the cases of other killing curses, even if the damage is major, you still have a chance once you've been hit. I don't think intent has anything to do with it....

drippan - Jul 27, 2004 3:07 pm (#763 of 2971)

One of the things I feel about the AK spell is that it is not easy to do. It might take a little longer than the average spell.

Most of the spells we saw in the battle were quick, easy spells.

I think James put up a great battle with LV put got disarmed and LV can perform the spell faster than anyone (he did practice for years then trained his DE's). Lilly, IMO, was completely disarmed.

Another thing is Lucius, IMO, tried it on Harry at the end of COS movie. He got the first word out but Dobby still had more time to do what he did to stop him.

BTW, you are pretty much likely to die from a gut wound by a bullet due to infections.

DripPan

Luke E.A. Lockhart - Jul 27, 2004 3:13 pm (#764 of 2971)

BTW, you are pretty much likely to die from a gut wound by a bullet due to infections.

Yes, but you still have a better chance than if you are shot in the head.

My argument is that there is no "non-Dark" magical way to kill Voldie. I think Voldemort's death will be a more classical-combat style.

TomProffitt - Jul 27, 2004 3:25 pm (#765 of 2971)
Edited Jul 27, 2004 4:26 pm

The end of He Who Must Not Be Named(if my estimation of Jo Rowling is correct) will be unexpected or unusual, or perhaps not even death exactly. I doubt it would be classical-combat.

(My choice would be death by M1A2 Abrahms) (Even though I don't think Godric Griffyndor had one that would fit in the sorting hat)

Leila 2X4B - Jul 27, 2004 6:34 pm (#766 of 2971)
Edited Jul 27, 2004 7:34 pm

What about Harry and Voldy(not willingly) going through the veil together?

Paulus Maximus - Jul 27, 2004 7:00 pm (#767 of 2971)

Harry and Voldemort falling through the mortal portal?

Sounds too much like Robert Jordan to me...

Leila 2X4B - Jul 27, 2004 7:03 pm (#768 of 2971)

TeeHee. I don't actually think that is how it is going to end. Sometimes, often times, I suggest theories that I never think will happen just to see the responses. The theories that I actually believe are on the predictions thread. Harry, one way or another, is going to give Lord Thingy his comeuppance.

PotterAddict - Jul 27, 2004 7:29 pm (#769 of 2971)

ok, I have been reading this forum for months but have never posted before. I love all the ideas, many of them have great ideas. I dont think mine is even close to what will happen but I am always trying to think outside the box.

What if Harry somehow kills V in book 6 but all his 'Evil' power is transferred to him and he has to spend all of book 7 fighting the evil that is now inside of him before V is really gone? That would work for the prophecy. Only one can survive.

You may think I am a bit nutty but I have tons of off the wall theories. I just know how JKR is just so good at surprising us.

Paulus Maximus - Jul 27, 2004 7:32 pm (#770 of 2971)

What if Harry somehow kills V in book 6 but all his 'Evil' power is transferred to him and he has to spend all of book 7 fighting the evil that is now inside of him

And fails in the attempt?

Maybe I'm too into the idea that when good tries too hard to defeat evil, good ultimately becomes evil...

Luke E.A. Lockhart - Jul 27, 2004 7:41 pm (#771 of 2971)

That idea is one which I really wish would happen. Unfortunately, JKR isn't real big with the dark heroes.

vball man - Jul 27, 2004 8:16 pm (#772 of 2971)

According to my theories, there will be a lot to do after Vol is defeated. But it won't be an entire book. I can see it taking 10-15 chapters to sum it up.

Luke E.A. Lockhart - Jul 28, 2004 7:04 am (#773 of 2971)

But then we get into the J.R.R. Tolkein "Scouring of the Shire" syndrome, which will undoubtedly bore quite a few people, unless it's very well done...

Steve Newton - Jul 28, 2004 7:46 am (#774 of 2971)

I must not tell lies.

This is what Umbridge has Harry write in OOTP. Is this a lesson that JKR wants Harry to learn? Lying has played a relatively large part in the story so far. HRH become a trio only after Hermione lies after the troll incident. Ginny is a bald faced liar or demand. An the trio seems to appreciate it.

Just wondering.

Czarina II - Jul 28, 2004 10:32 am (#775 of 2971)

What's with the idea that lying is universally wrong? I am lying if I say that I got caught at a red light when I am a couple minutes late for something, when I really just left my house two minutes later than I should have. What is wrong with that, apart from the fact that I am shifting the blame from myself? (And if anyone quibbles about two minutes because my precise timing was necessary, I should be in trouble regardless.) For my above action to count as "wrong", I would have had to either a) shift the blame onto another person/animal or b) be intending to cause harm to the person I am lying to. I blamed the stoplight, which has no feelings, and I have no intention of harming anyone. My lie could very easily be true and it would cause the same harm. If I was entirely honest, I would cause harm to myself (obviously) and also perhaps to the recipient of the lie. Fibbing out of a two-minute lateness is quite harmless, in fact. Other lies might save someone's life or cause them less grief. Who would necessarily like to know that their friend committed suicide when they could just be told that they drowned in a boating accident?

Harry Potter lies often to people like Hermione because he knows it will make them feel better. Besides which, they're teenagers. I do not know a single teen who has not lied about something, and usually for much more selfish reasons that Harry, Ginny, Hermione, or anyone.

Steve Newton - Jul 28, 2004 11:01 am (#776 of 2971)

Of course, Czarina. We all lie. Sometimes its for a good reason and sometimes we convince ourselves that there is a good reason.

But, that wasn't my point. Is JKR trying to tell us that Harry must learn this lesson. For instance in COS, I think, Dumbledore asks Harry if there is anything that he (Harry) wants to tell him. Harry answers no. Well he was lying. We could debate whether or not this was a good thing to do and how it came out. So, is truthfulness something that Harry has to learn?

Luke E.A. Lockhart - Jul 28, 2004 11:22 am (#777 of 2971)

I hope desperately that JKR won't try to put morals like that in her story. These characters are humans, not saints! They're already too goody-goody - we don't want them any more so.

vball man - Jul 28, 2004 11:50 am (#778 of 2971)

I think that Harry's biggest struggle in life will be:

Seizing power and control over those around him -VS- not doing so.

I think that DD's choices about Harry's life are meant to prepare him for that. DD put him with the Dursleys to teach him to accept authority, even when the authority is wrong. DD made Ron prefect, I think, to teach Harry to get comfortable in second place. DD also models these same attributes. In OoP, we see that DD is very powerful. He could have forced his will and not left Hogwarts in Cos. He could have become Minister of Magic, but he has not sought power.

Czarina II - Jul 28, 2004 12:59 pm (#779 of 2971)

Sorry Steve, I missed your point entirely. But I agree with Luke that the characters aren't saints and shouldn't be. (Even saints are not perfect!)

However, it is a very good point that Harry lies often when he doesn't want the help that he probably needs, or when he doesn't want to talk about his troubles. He shouldn't, and I think JKR is subtlely getting that point across. Harry likes to battle his own demons and doesn't think that anyone understands him. It is interesting that in that regard, he is very similar to Snape!

Steve Newton - Jul 28, 2004 1:04 pm (#780 of 2971)

Czarina,

I often am unclear on what I write. I'll try to do better. Save time and aggravation for all of us.

Steve

Luke E.A. Lockhart - Jul 28, 2004 1:48 pm (#781 of 2971)

Yes, Harry does have a problem with not going to others for help when he needs it. I agree with you there.

drippan - Jul 28, 2004 2:05 pm (#782 of 2971)

Lockhart, "Yes, Harry does have a problem with not going to others for help when he needs it."

I agree too but Harry still is getting used to having friends and family.

Here is a "young man" who didn't have a single friend until going to Hogwart's. Now he has friends and family but still does not understand what that type of love they give him means.....

For example, there at St. Mungo's, Mrs. Weasley tells Harry to come in to the wing because he is family. This takes Harry by surprise and give him a warm fuzzy.

Later, he hears that he might have cause the incident to Arthur in the MoM. He starts to run away but DD sent a message for him to stay put. Instead, he goes into hiding. Now, this is out of fear that he might hurt someone, but he didn't express his feelings. Not until Hr/R/G talked to him.

His love for Sirius was great but that was because he found out he had family. Sirius, IMO, didn't show Harry about true love either. Why didn't he go to find Harry? Let Harry know no matter what he does, he will still love him?

Harry still does not know how much he is loved and that you are accepted, forgiven, etc no matter the situation. I hope JKR handles this situation soon or Harry will live to be an old man without knowing what true love is between friends, family, or girlfriends.

DripPan

P.S. I think Ginny is the only one right now who understands what love really is and will show Harry the way. Just my opinion.

Luke E.A. Lockhart - Jul 28, 2004 2:15 pm (#783 of 2971)

This isn't the 'ship thread, but the thing about Ginny: we don't know enough about her to think anything about her as to her feelings on love. (I do support the H/G 'ship, but this is the wrong thread).

But, yes, I agree that Harry is a little emotionally reserved. I personally feel that for the storyline this is a good thing - we don't want to read another "ah, yes, we're such happy people - we'll just beat the you-know-what out of You-Know-Who and go home and be happy. La la la" story. We want to read a dark, interesting story where the heros have real feelings and deal with things in a realistic way, rather than being ultra-perfect, ultra-happy magical caricatures.

drippan - Jul 28, 2004 2:18 pm (#784 of 2971)

And also grow more mature, since they did start at the age of 11.

DripPan

Luke E.A. Lockhart - Jul 28, 2004 2:34 pm (#785 of 2971)

There is a difference between growing more mature and learning to behave like a good little boy. Despite what teachers and parents and other authorities want kids to believe, maturity is not about obeying the rules. Maturity is about doing the right thing, regardless of the rules. It also isn't the pop-psychology idea about "let's be happy all the time, because everything will turn out OK". Maturity is about looking at the situation, deciding for yourself how bad it is, and reacting appropriately. I don't feel that JKR has written these books to deliver stale morals.

That said, I don't think Harry & Company have reached maturity yet, nor should they. I hope that through the next books, they will actually face the inner demons which should have been growing in them throughout the series, and overcome them in the last book - not simply shunt everything aside and decide to become cheerful, obedient little children.

drippan - Jul 28, 2004 3:19 pm (#786 of 2971)
Edited Jul 28, 2004 4:21 pm

I agree about the maturity. It is doing the right thing!

But, IMO, maturity is not "let's be happy all the time, because everything will turn out OK."

It is the reactions that you have to any situation, both good and bad.

For example, Dudley is immature because he throws a temper tantrum when he doesn't get his way.

Harry shows maturity in alot of areas. In CoS, he was ready to be expelled when him and Ron arrived in the car.

In PoA, he was ran away from the Dursley (immature) to facing Fudge with the truth and accepting whatever punishment there was for doing magic (maturity).

There's other examples of H/R/Hr acting mature and immature.

I think the best example is Fred and George. They joked around alot, pulled pranks, and made people laugh. But, also, they went back to school because of their mom's feelings and opened their own business. Not once did deny responsibility for all their actions.

Maturity does not mean stuffy or uprighteousness.

DripPan

Susurro Notities - Jul 28, 2004 7:16 pm (#787 of 2971) Reply
Edited by Jul 28, 2004 8:17 pm

Maturity is about doing the right thing, regardless of the rules. (Luke E.A. Lockhart, #785, Harry Potter thread)
Exactly. Well said.
And to go back a few posts "What's with the idea that lying is universally wrong?" (Czarina II, post #775, Harry Potter thread)To paraphrase Luke E.A. Lockhart - maturity is about doing what is moral and ethical. Lying is neither. It is at its simplest, blaming a stoplight, the inability to take responsibility for one's own actions. At its most awful it is harmful to another.
Maturity is telling the truth even if it is hurtful to oneself.
Even the "white lie" is problematic. Tell one tell a million. Telling a lie to make another feel better is due to a lack of skill. One should say nothing or say something truthful that is still kind.

Eponine - Jul 28, 2004 7:42 pm (#788 of 2971)

I think whether or not lying is wrong depends on the circumstances. There was a situation about 10 years ago in my family where lying was probably the only thing that kept some of them alive. Yes, we were still lying, but it was much better than the alternative.

So, I think that some lies are justified, but only in desperate situations.

Susurro Notities - Jul 28, 2004 8:16 pm (#789 of 2971)

Cassie Bernall is my hero. When the gunman at Columbine High School asked her about her faith she did not lie - she told the truth although a lie could have saved her life. She was more mature, ethical, and moral than most of us will ever be.

Czarina II - Jul 28, 2004 8:27 pm (#790 of 2971)

Now, if I tell you my shirt is blue even though it's pink...Some of us are Gryffindors, some are Slytherins, and others are somewhere in-between. If I knew that a neighbour was abusing their child,the child ran to me for help and I hid them in my house when their parents came to look for them (obviously lying to the parents), is that immature, unethical and immoral? Rhetorical question.

Anyhow, BACK TO HARRY POTTER. Columbine has nothing to do with it, other than both it and Hogwarts are schools.

One of Harry's great weaknesses is that he doesn't like to ask for help until things are desperate. This is likely because of how he was treated at the Dursleys. Vernon and Petunia never helped him. He thus does not expect help and he is extremely self-reliant. Does anyone think that this reluctance to seek help will change after the events in OoP?

Susurro Notities - Jul 28, 2004 9:07 pm (#791 of 2971) Reply
Edited by Jul 28, 2004 10:35 pm

I find it somewhat amazing that you, Czarina II, can state "One of Harry's great weaknesses is that he doesn't like to ask for help until things are desperate." (post #790, Harry Potter thread) yet you post a hypothetical that states that you knew the "...neighbour was abusing their child..." (Czarina II, post #790, Harry Potter thread) but waited to rescue that child until they knocked on your door with the parents in hot pursuit.
Yes - you could tell the truth even in that situation. You could take the brunt of the parents' punishment on yourself, you could not answer the door, you could call the police ... You could risk all for that child but maybe you should not have let it go so far. Maybe you now should indeed tell the truth and protect the child and face the parents' wraith. Possibly these parents need to hear the truth.
You are correct Czarina II. Columbine in general has nothing to do with HP. Cassie Bernall does, however, illustrate someone standing up for their beliefs resisting the temptation to lie despite their life being on the line. Very mature. Very ethical. Very moral.
That was the topic.
I sincerely hope Harry will continue to be self reliant, yet will see that no one person, despite the prophecy, can defeat Voldemort on their own. That he will grow to be an ethical leader. I hope he continues to be the guy who tells the truth despite the Umbidges.

S.E. Jones - Jul 28, 2004 9:21 pm (#792 of 2971)

We need to bring this thread back to directly discussing Harry....

Thanks....

Paulus Maximus - Jul 29, 2004 1:18 am (#793 of 2971)

Harry did swallow his pride enough to let Snape know about The Vision... on the other hand, there was nobody else from the Order...

Susurro Notities - Jul 29, 2004 4:47 am (#794 of 2971)

Does Harry need to ask for help? Certainly he does. There were resources. The mirror ( he at least could have tried) and Snape (Harry could have swallowed his pride). Will he change and ask for help before he is boxed into a corner? I would hope that he would begin to see that there are many all around him who believe in him and would help him. JKR has done a wonderful job of portraying Harry as a normal teen. Will he mature enough at age 16, but certainly at age 17, to know that despite his burden there are people all around him who have talents, knowledge, and wisdom. That there are those who would help without reservation, that he has a destiny, that being Harry is not to be used but to be celebrated as a hero.

haymoni - Jul 29, 2004 5:22 am (#795 of 2971)

I think asking for help is difficult for Harry because nobody helped him for 11 years.

The boy has built some pretty strong defense mechanisms around himself. It will take a while before he lets his guard down and trusts someone.

Stringer - Jul 30, 2004 3:12 pm (#796 of 2971)

HAPPY BIRTHDAY HARRY!!! It's officially 31/07/04 in the UK!

Crooky - Jul 30, 2004 4:06 pm (#797 of 2971)

Huge birthday wishes for our beloved bespectacled one. It's definately the 31st here (10am, 31 July, current local time). Time for a butter beer methinks!

boop - Jul 30, 2004 4:44 pm (#798 of 2971)

HARRY!!!!!!!!

Sir Tornado - Jul 30, 2004 7:05 pm (#799 of 2971)

HARRY POTTER, A VERY HAPPY BIRTHDAY

Hollywand - Jul 30, 2004 7:54 pm (#800 of 2971)

Born as the seventh month dies....Happy birthday Harry and Jo! ;-)

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Mona Sat Sep 10, 2011 8:23 am

Kasse - Jul 30, 2004 10:13 pm (#801 of 2971)

From one leo the another happy birthday Harry!

Sir Tornado - Jul 31, 2004 2:17 am (#802 of 2971)

I don't think there's going to be anything on this thread today except Birthday wishes for Harry.

The One - Jul 31, 2004 2:51 am (#803 of 2971)
Edited Jul 31, 2004 3:52 am

Tornedo

I don't think there's going to be anything on this thread today except Birthday wishes for Harry.

You do realise that your post falsified itself?

:-)

Sir Tornado - Jul 31, 2004 6:25 am (#804 of 2971)

Yeah; that's why I posted it.

Luke E.A. Lockhart - Jul 31, 2004 7:27 am (#805 of 2971)

Plrtz glrb. OK, that wasn't a birthday wish for Harry. Wait, it's the next day! For some of you. Actually, where I live July 31 is just starting.

In order to save this thread from its fate of falling into birthday-wish doominess, I shall herocially post... a theory. Or something.

Harry's personality has been growing more angry, less agreeable throughout the last couple of books. What direction do you think it will take in Half Blood Prince (and beyond)?

My opinion: he will grow more angry and more hateful throughout HbP, and it will be resolved at the end of the book, at which point Harry becomes a mature, grown-up hero for book seven.

The One - Jul 31, 2004 8:08 am (#806 of 2971)

Yeah; that's why I posted it.

Good.... :-)

Was just wondering.

Hollywand - Jul 31, 2004 8:53 am (#807 of 2971)

Hi Luke, I agree with your theory. As Harry grows older, he will blossom into his full emotional and wizarding powers, and learn what a challenge it can be to control such a gift as power. Can he temper his power? Does he have the strength? As Machiavelli noted, "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely" Let's hope Harry can step away from the abyss that Tom Riddle embraced.

Steve Newton - Jul 31, 2004 11:16 am (#808 of 2971)

LEAL,

Regretfully, I agree. I'm not sure that I will like Harry in the HBP. I do have high hopes. JKR could surprise us.

Kasse - Jul 31, 2004 4:28 pm (#809 of 2971)

I thought JKR said something to the extent of it was in book 5 that Harry went through a rough a dark time and he will be more agreeable in the last two books. Did anyone else hear something like this?

Ff3girl - Jul 31, 2004 4:43 pm (#810 of 2971)

I can't remember whether or not I've heard that, but it makes a lot fo sense. It would seem rather pointless for Harry to go through all the pain he did if he wasn't going to calm down a little bit and learn from it all.

TomProffitt - Jul 31, 2004 4:47 pm (#811 of 2971)

I remember that, too, Kasse. Can't remember where.

Hollywand - Jul 31, 2004 5:04 pm (#812 of 2971)

The interviews I have seen recently from JKR about Harry have been on the order of, "If I were Harry, I would run and hide, because I know what is in store.' I think Harry and his pals are in for a wild ride in the next book. You might want to search on the JKR transcript thread if you are interested in her remarks.

S.E. Jones - Jul 31, 2004 6:06 pm (#813 of 2971)

I think Harry will be much less angry in HBP. I think he's been thrown head-first into adulthood by experiencing the death of someone he saw as a parent. He seems much calmer at the end of OotP and sees his life as being divided into two universes - one where Sirius was alive and he wanted childish things, and one where Sirius is gone and the prophecy exists. I think he will have to put his anger aside before he can really come to grips with the Prophecy, and he will have to come to grips with the Prophecy before he can properly prepare to face Voldemort (at the end of Book 7)....

Ff3girl - Jul 31, 2004 9:27 pm (#814 of 2971)

Very good points, S.E. I agree with you completely.

Besides that, it would be kind of hard for a person who is angry all the time to be able to defeat evil with the power of love...

Czarina II - Jul 31, 2004 9:30 pm (#815 of 2971)

Well, Happy Birthday Harry! It's still July for another twenty minutes! (I suppose Harry was born at night anyway, seeing as he was born "as the seventh month dies")

Richard !!!Reid - Aug 1, 2004 9:55 am (#816 of 2971)

I agree with you S.E. I'm sure I've heard JK say that Harry will put his personal issue's aside to serve his place in the second war - something on those lines.

S.E. Jones - Aug 1, 2004 11:51 am (#817 of 2971)

I think the quote people are thinking of is this one:

World Day, 2004:
Field: Regarding Harrys subconscious feelings, how has it changed from book 1 to book 5?
JK Rowling replies -> Well he's obviously been through a lot since book one and book five was the book when he cracked up a little. In book six, the wizarding world is really at war again and he has to master his own feelings to make himself useful.

drippan - Aug 1, 2004 4:13 pm (#818 of 2971)

Here's a question for everyone: Will Harry apologize for leading the band into the DoM?

It seems that throughout OotP, he kept doing bad things to people. He sent them owls trying to find out what was going on. He even told Hedwig to bug them until they written back. When he sees Ron with his fingers all torn up, he was somewhat happy about this fact!

He also was angry at Ron and Hermione for not corresponding. They explained to him why not but he didn't want to hear their reasoning. He acted quite immature.

The only time he apolgizes is to Ginny. He said he forgot about her being possessed by TR/LV. He actually says he's sorry.

Now, with DoM, he made a big mistake. He got people hurt including his best friends. Maybe Hermione was right and Harry does have a "hero complex". Harry is going to have to live with this until he gets it out into the open. Then, luckly, he will understand that making mistakes does not mean that people stop loving you.

Also, what will Mrs. Weasley reaction be? Here, Harry has put 2 of her children in harm's way. They are both hurt and we know her biggest fear is of her children (including Harry) die. Will her love for him be just as much for Harry as for her own flesh and blood?

OotP left these things hanging. It's going to be interesting to see how HBP is going to start while handling these loose ends. I hope JKR does not leave these things as generally acceptable and goes on like nothing happened.

DripPan

TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 1, 2004 4:24 pm (#819 of 2971)

Yes, I think Harry, after his grief and sorting out will apoligise. He does hear and belive DD, although sometimes it takes him awhile..."`Well, Harry,' said Dumbledore, finally turning away from the baby bird, `you will be pleased to hear that none of your fellow students are going to suffer lasting damage from the night's events.' Harry tried to say, `Good,' but no sound came out. It seemed to him that Dumbledore was reminding him of the amount of damage he had caused, and although Dumbledore was for once looking at him directly, and although his expression was kindly rather than accusatory Harry could not bear to meet his eyes."

tracie1976 - Aug 1, 2004 8:02 pm (#820 of 2971)

Will Harry apologize for leading the band into the DoM?

I think he will but it might take awhile since I think he will blame himself for their injuries. But before he apologises I think he has to get over Sirius's death.

Paulus Maximus - Aug 1, 2004 8:57 pm (#821 of 2971)

If he blames himself, shouldn't it be that much easier to apologize?

Ff3girl - Aug 1, 2004 9:22 pm (#822 of 2971)
Edited Aug 1, 2004 10:23 pm

I don't know... an apology makes a person very vulnerable. Its completely up to the other person as to whether or not to accept it. There's always just a little awkward pause there that's like a leap of faith while you're waiting for the person to whom you're apologizing to say "Don't worry about it" or "its ok."

We all know Harry doesn't seem to have much experience with opening up to people.

Sir Tornado - Aug 2, 2004 2:20 am (#823 of 2971)

Will Harry apologize for leading the band into the DoM? -- DripPan.

Drip, why should Harry apologise to anyone? Harry did not want Neville, Ginny and Luna to come. They came on their own. As far as Ron and Hermione are concerned... well, he may try apologise to them. But they may say "It's OK" before he even opens his mouth. If there's one person who he should apologise, it's Sirius. But... I think that's where the Graveyard'll come. He'll go there to apologise to Sirius' grave or something.

Richard !!!Reid - Aug 2, 2004 4:32 am (#824 of 2971)

At the moment, i'm debating whether Harry will apologize or become arrogant, thinking that he does not owe anyone an apology. Remember how annoyed he was when he was kept in Privet Drive - all he thought about was how much he had done compared to Ron and Hermione

Kasse - Aug 2, 2004 6:57 am (#825 of 2971)

Remember how annoyed he was when he was kept in Privet Drive - all he thought about was how much he had done compared to Ron and Hermione - Richard

...he was going through a rough time, OOP was tough for Harry I am not making excuses for him, because throughout the book he had his moments where it was difficult to like him, but hopefully he is going to be more mature about things from now on.

Also I have to agre with Tornado, Harry did not force anyone to go with him, they came on their own accord knowing full well the risks, they are his friends and did not want him to go alone. I do not think he needs to apologise for what happened to them at he DOM. But apologising to the othersie ie the aurors and DD I think he should because they went to the DOM to save Harry once Snape informed them. - am I making any sense? I hope so!

T Brightwater - Aug 2, 2004 7:18 am (#826 of 2971)

I don't think Harry is arrogant, or will become so. If he were, he would have taken Hermione's suggestion that he teach a secret DADA class immediately. His first reaction is that it's absurd, that he's not qualified. Then they throw back at him all the things he's done, and he keeps saying that this was luck, or he had help with that, or someone else saved him at the last minute. Instead, he has to think about it for quite a while before realizing that he could do it - and when he does, he turns out to be a natural teacher.

At the beginning of OoP he's desperate to know what's going on. He senses that he's being kept in the dark because people don't think he can handle the information, which he understandably resents. He believes he has the right to know and the strength to deal with it. As it turns out, he was right about this and Dumbledore was wrong.

His resentments are mostly short-lived. At 12GP, when Sirius offers to answer some of his questions and Molly tries to send the other kids away, he briefly considers telling Ron and Hermione that he won't tell them a thing, and see how they like being kept in the dark, but he's already rejected that before he can even start to form the words. He only dislikes people who have given him plenty of reason to dislike them, and he's even polite to people who annoy him, like Colin Creevey.

He's angry at Dumbledore through most of OoP because DD seems to be, for no apparent reason, treating him almost the way the Dursleys do. Wouldn't you be bewildered and a bit angry if someone whom you relied on and considered a friend suddenly stopped speaking to you, or even looking at you, with no explanation?

Harry's not perfect, but he is a genuinely good person. It's astonishing, considering everything that's happened to him. I think that was part of the protection his mother gave him.

Sir Tornado - Aug 2, 2004 8:34 am (#827 of 2971)

I agree with T Brighwater.

The One - Aug 2, 2004 12:47 pm (#828 of 2971)

It is hard to say what he will do. Harry does apologize sometimes, he does thank his friends sometimes, but it is no doubt a trend that he tend to take his friends for granted and very often do neither.

In this case he does feel guilty for the havoc created, and I do hope he will learn from it, but how this new wisdom will manifest itself remains to be seen.

But whatever he does or does not do with regard to apologizing , I do not think he will be arrogant, the impact of Sirius death, the almost death of Hermione, the torture of Neville and the Brain attack on Ron is to strong. Whether the other was there on his request or voluntarily , he was the one to be tricked into believing the mission was necessary , the mission was lead by him, and he must take the main responsibility for the outcome. And he know it. Of course Dumbledore is to blame for not giving Harry the information that would have enabled him to see trough the bluff. But Hermione saw trough it, so it does not really free Harry for all blame. And anyway, even if Sirius had been captured, the Kids would still have lost the battle if they had not been saved by the order and Dumbledore.

All trough the series, Harry is guilty of diving headlong into situations he does not know how to handle, often bringing his friends, only being saved by sheer luck. It had to end in disaster at some point. More than apologizing, Harry need to reconsider his pattern of action. Will he do that?

Green Eyes - Aug 2, 2004 1:12 pm (#829 of 2971)

Harry's caring about what happens to his friends is what sets him apart from LV. In OOTP, Harry is learning to rely on others - not just himself and R/Hr. He didn't see Neville, Ginny and Luna as capbable in a tough situation. He ended up being wrong about that too. Neville is the last person standing with Harry. If the other three hadn't gone, Harry, Ron and Hermione would've perished, they'd have been outnumbered. The DA gained him supporters. He's going to need them.

Harry holds himself responsible for what happened at the ministry...all of it, including Sirius's death. He will apologize in some fashion for his fool hardiness, but I think to be fair, he wasn't fully informed about what was going on - which Dumbledore took responsibility for. Harry cares about the people who support him...Voldemort sees his Death Eaters as expendable, he doesn't give a damn about them except how they can do his bidding.

Richard !!!Reid - Aug 2, 2004 1:47 pm (#830 of 2971)

Very true - Harry definitely shows compassion for his friends, but it's always after he does or says something foolish. He only felt guilty for smashing the bowl of murtlap essence and shouting at Ron and Hermione after he did it - he did not try to control his emotions before hand. Same scenario when he wanted to go to the MoM. Although he did not want others going, he did not put up much of an argument. Will Harry perhaps control his emotions in the HBP before he "heats up." It may be just adolescence or maybe it's the Voldemort part inside him and it could be the "love" that makes makes up for it as he later feels compassion - he's very conflicted, or maybe it's just me.

vball man - Aug 2, 2004 9:02 pm (#831 of 2971)

I don't think that Harry owes any of them an apology for taking them to the MoM. They chose to go. He does owe Hermione one, though - for not listening to her. She tried to warn him of exactly what happened. Vol tricked him.

Sir Tornado - Aug 2, 2004 9:08 pm (#832 of 2971)

I agree with Vball.

Paulus Maximus - Aug 2, 2004 10:22 pm (#833 of 2971)
Edited Aug 2, 2004 11:23 pm

Actually, I think he owes her... two or three. At least that many times Harry has refused to admit that Hermione was right, even when he knew it.

I think a lesson in humility is in order.

T Brightwater - Aug 3, 2004 5:31 am (#834 of 2971)

Harry's just had a huge lesson in humility. His insistence that his vision of Sirius at the MoM was true has led to his godfather's death. Of course, it would have helped if someone had warned him of the possibility that Voldemort would be trying to trick him into going to the Department of Mysteries. Every other vision Harry has had from Voldemort's perspective has been true.

Ann - Aug 3, 2004 6:20 am (#835 of 2971)

Harry is used to being a leader and having his friends support him in doing what he thinks is right. When he turns out to be wrong, he always feels sorry, but rarely says so. I think he assumes they know. I always think Harry should apologize more, and also thank people more for their support (even Petunia--it might have interesting effects). But he's still a kid, and hence still seeing the world turn around himself.

One clue that he might be getting a bit better at controlling his anger is in the scene where he uses the Cruciatus curse against Bellatrix. When she tells him it only works if you really want to cause pain, that righteous anger isn't enough, he backs off rather than using the righteousness of his anger to push it over into that level where you want to hurt someone. He controls this urge several times earlier in the book (though not always), but never in circumstances so dire, and where he has such a good reason to hate the object of his rage.

I think it is interesting in OotP that both Umbridge and McGonagall are trying to get him to control himself. It gives the whole question of self control a kind of ambivalence.

Padfoot - Aug 3, 2004 10:40 am (#836 of 2971)

I don't think that Harry owes any of them an apology for taking them to the MoM. They chose to go. He does owe Hermione one, though - for not listening to her. -vball man

I agree with that. Why should he apologize to the rest? Now that they understand the danger first hand, they might be more cautious running into situations that could be traps. But I think they will still remain loyal to Harry and help him anyway they can.

When he turns out to be wrong, he always feels sorry, but rarely says so. I think he assumes they know. -Ann

Well Harry did apologize (or try to) in OotP when he was bickering with Ron and Hermione. I think there were other times he was apologetic. The main person he needs to apologize to right now is Snape.

Steve Newton - Aug 3, 2004 10:58 am (#837 of 2971)

Does Harry owe an apology to those that followed him to the MOM?

He is their leader and they trusted him. He led them into a trap. This would seem to be a major failing as a leader and the idea of an apology should come up.

I think that he learned from the experience and will do better in the future. His group was accomplished enough in DADA, in large part due to Harry's training, that no major damage occurred. He also looked after his people after the action began, in fact he reacted quite well to a fighting situation. Better, in fact, than he reacted to good advice from his followers. (This means Hermione.)

Ann - Aug 3, 2004 11:04 am (#838 of 2971)

Right you are, Padfoot. Apologizing to Snape might have interesting effects, too. But I bet he won't, since Harry is so angry about Snape's taunting of Sirius, and blames that for Sirius's desire to take part in the battle. (And, frankly, being a lot older than Sirius and, I like to think, as clever, I think Dumbledore was being a bit optimistic in saying that Sirius was too old and clever to be hurt by Snape's feeble taunting.)

TomProffitt - Aug 3, 2004 11:06 am (#839 of 2971)
Edited Aug 3, 2004 12:06 pm

Harry Potter has never been taught to apologize. This is among the many problems of having grown up at the Dursleys. Surely Vernon never apologized to him for anything. I expect that on more than one occasion he has been made to apologize to Dudley for something Dudley has done.

Mynn - Aug 3, 2004 11:07 am (#840 of 2971)
Edited Aug 3, 2004 12:09 pm

I Don't think Harry owes them an apology. They all chose to go with him. He originally protested, especially having Luna Lovegood and Neville go along.

Hermoine, tried to discourage Harry, warning him that it might be a trap. I think when they went to the MoM they were all if not consciously aware that it was a possibility, they were all sub-consciously aware. They went to the MoM because of their loyalty to Harry. Harry shouldn't have to apologize for that.

timrew - Aug 3, 2004 3:57 pm (#841 of 2971)
Edited Aug 3, 2004 4:58 pm

Oh, I think he definitely should apologise to all of the people who went to the MOM with him - for being a hot-headed, unthinking git.

He put all of their lives in danger for the sake of sitting down for five minutes and using his brain.

I think, when it all boils down to it, Harry realises that he is responsible for Sirius's death. And this is the reason he throws such a 'wobbler' in Dumbledore's office.

When he's had a chance to think about what he's done, he'll be all the better for it come book 6.

Leila 2X4B - Aug 3, 2004 4:04 pm (#842 of 2971)

Harry should apologize for his obstenense. He never thinks before acts, really. All of the times that he has "saved the day" barring GoF it was because he took it upon himself to do so. He never thinks to ask for help. In away Phineas is right about him. He thinks that only he can recognize danger, and only he can right it. This has led to him putting himself and his friends in danger more than enough times. He should consider that his friends may not have made it. He only found out about their condition because DD told him, he didn't even ask. I think that the totality of the situation will eventually work itself out in his mind and perhaps he will make smarter choices. However, I do not blame him for Sirius' death. Sirius, unlike his friends, was an adult and understood the consequences for his actions. The only one to blame for Sirius' death is Bellatrix.

timrew - Aug 3, 2004 4:15 pm (#843 of 2971)

Sleeping Beauty, all I'm saying is, that if Harry had not recklessly led his cohorts into the MOM, then the members of the Order would not have had to come to their rescue.

This makes Harry (however indirectly) responsible for Sirius's death.

Richard !!!Reid - Aug 3, 2004 4:17 pm (#844 of 2971)

I think Harry will linger on that thought all summer and it may drive him insane. Because of that, I think he will listen to Hermione a lot more. She knew after all it was a trap.

T Brightwater - Aug 3, 2004 4:19 pm (#845 of 2971)

Harry's been surrounded for most of his life by people who are the opposite of helpful to him. He's so used to going it alone that at the beginning of GoF he almost feels ashamed that he would like to have someone like a parent to talk to about his scar hurting.

When he had the vision of Sirius and Voldemort, he didn't have anyone to ask - Dumbledore, Hagrid, and McGonagall were all gone. He took Hermione's advice and tried to contact Sirius at 12GP, only to be deceived by a house elf, not realizing that Kreacher could lie to him. He even tried to get help from Snape, but as far as he could tell, Snape didn't understand him, didn't believe him, or didn't care.

Yes, if he'd learned Occlumency properly, none of this would have happened in the first place, but nobody really gave him a good reason to believe that Voldemort could make him see something that wasn't happening, and Snape was absolutely the wrong person to teach him, however good he might be at Occlumency.

And, yes, Bellatrix is the one responsible for Sirius' death.

timrew - Aug 3, 2004 4:24 pm (#846 of 2971)

T Brightwater, you could say that Dumbledore was wrong in making Harry take Occlumency lessons from Snape. But it was Harry who chose to ignore those lessons in order to find what lay behind the door in the MOM in his dreams.

The kid has a lot of growing up to do. In OoP, he came across as a temperamental, 'I know it all', typical teenager. He will have learned his lesson, I'm sure, by now.

T Brightwater - Aug 3, 2004 4:30 pm (#847 of 2971)

Of course he has a lot of growing up to do, he's just sixteen. But Dumbledore put his finger on it - he should have told Harry earlier about the prophecy. Even if he didn't tell him the exact contents, he could have let him know that Voldemort was likely to try to lure him into the Department of Mysteries, and that it would not be a good idea for him to go there. It's a bit hard to make correct decisions when you don't have all the facts.

Leila 2X4B - Aug 3, 2004 4:34 pm (#848 of 2971)

I would disagree with DD telling Harry earlier. What would Harry be like knowing from age 11 that either he or Voldy would kill one another. He would be nuts. He needed to have that bravado that got him through all those challenging adventures he finds himself in. He would have been paralyzed with fear knowing that any day Voldy could up and kill him, because, I doubt Harry would believe that he could kill Voldy. However, it does prevent Harry from making wise choices, not knowing. It was the catalyst needed for all of these things to fall into place for book 6

Leila

T Brightwater - Aug 3, 2004 4:37 pm (#849 of 2971)

Sleeping Beauty, I think you and DD are right that eleven is too young to find out something like that. But after Voldemort's return, I think it was more dangerous for him _not_ to know. As I said, even if DD didn't want to tell him everything, he could have told him a little more, at least enough to put him on his guard.

TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 3, 2004 10:00 pm (#850 of 2971)

Ok, I have a slight disagreement here, Harry, thought acting rashly, is NOT responsible for Sirius's death!

True, Harry placed himself and the DA's in danger, but Sirius, as an adult, chose his own path, in my nsho, Sirius caused his own death by his recklessness and the exuberance of being free, much as a school-boy freed for summer vacation.

Yes, Harry made a bad mistake, but his god-father made a bigger one. (danged hyphen)

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Weeny Owl - Aug 3, 2004 10:22 pm (#851 of 2971)
Edited Aug 3, 2004 11:23 pm

I've always strenously disagreed that Harry is responsible for Sirius dying, or at least being the one who is more responsible than anyone else.

This is a list, albeit not complete, of those who are responsible, in my opinion: Weeny Owl "Sirius Black" 4/27/04 8:47am

As for Harry not asking about the condition of everyone, he would have eventually, bur at the time he was too raw with grief. Harry was only fifteen. Most fifteen-year-olds wouldn't react any differently. Harry has had a difficult life, and he lost one of the few links he has to his parents. Sirius was not only Harry's godfather but his friend. He's lost two parents and a parental figure, and while I hope he overcomes his anger from OotP, it's still understandable.

Harry wanted to talk to Dumbledore throughout the year but was ignored. Ignored for a good reason? Perhaps, but Harry didn't know that. All he knew was that Dumbledore acted as if he didn't exist.

Sir Tornado - Aug 3, 2004 11:26 pm (#852 of 2971)

I am trying to agree with Weeny Owl.

septentrion - Aug 4, 2004 6:16 am (#853 of 2971)

Just my opinion : Harry does have great responsabilities in what happened in MoM because he didn't try to learn occlumency, because he didn't listen to Hermione, because he didn't think of Snape as a member of the Order...but the most responsible of all this mess is Voldemort. Yet I think Harry should apologise to his friends for his own part of responsabilities.
About Sirius, I don't think it was rash of him to go to the DoM. He loved Harry, and didn't care about his own security. In some way, Harry is like Sirius. What was rash from Sirius was his attitude with Bellatrix ("you can do better than that").

Weeny Owl - Aug 4, 2004 7:53 am (#854 of 2971)

Yes, septentrio, Harry does bear some responsibility, but choices were made by various people from the time of Tom Riddle, Jr.'s birth until the actual Department of Mysteries battle that affected Harry through no fault of his own.

Dumbledore and other members of the Order chose not to give Harry significant information, the Ministry made horrid decisions that had an adverse effect on the outcome, various people chose to follow a madman, and the madman himself chose to attack Harry's mind with certain visions.

Harry has been a pawn since before he was even born. Choices have been made for him that may or may not have been the best for him, but many of those choices are significant to the outcome of the final battle and may not have anything to do with Harry as a person.

As to him apologizing, perhaps he should, but if JKR chooses not to have him do so, it wouldn't matter to me that much. After hearing the Prophecy, he has a heavy weight on his shoulders. The fate of the entire Wizarding World lies with him.

neu - Aug 4, 2004 2:03 pm (#855 of 2971)

This may have already been discussed, but does anyone else think it is possible that Dumbledore will offer Harry the position for professor of Defense Against the Dark Arts? I mean, with his former experience as leader of the DA, and the success of his students at the Ministry Battle (they really put up a good fight against the Death Eaters). Dumbledore could then train Harry personally and prepare the students for the war.

T Brightwater - Aug 4, 2004 2:05 pm (#856 of 2971)

It probably comes up on the "students' future careers" thread. I can't see DD giving Harry that responsibility while he's still in school, but I hope that's what he does after he graduates.

Richard !!!Reid - Aug 4, 2004 2:06 pm (#857 of 2971)

He maybe a bit pushed for time, doing his Newts and teaching classes

TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 4, 2004 2:17 pm (#858 of 2971)

I highly doubt that neu, consider:

`I feel I owe you another explanation, Harry,' said Dumbledore hesitantly. `You may, perhaps, have wondered why I never chose you as a prefect? I must confess… that I rather thought… you had enough responsibility to be going on with.'

neu - Aug 4, 2004 2:26 pm (#859 of 2971)

Just my opinion : Harry does have great responsabilities in what happened in MoM because he didn't try to learn occlumency...

I thought Harry didnt have to learn occlumency in the first place, because Voldemort couldn't stand being inside of his body. Remember at the Ministry battle when Voldemort possesed him, and Dumbledore explained that Harry was full of what Voldemort despised, and therefore couldn't posses him very long, or something like that.

penguin patronus - Aug 4, 2004 2:27 pm (#860 of 2971)

Earlier someone spoke of Murtlap. If you read J.K. Rowling's comic relief, "Fantastic Beasts and Where To Find Them" and you read the definition of Murtlap (Pg. 30), you'll see that it says that it's a rat-like creature, and when it's pickled and eaten it promotes a resistance to curses and jinxes. I don't think she put this in the HP books just for Harry to soak his hand in. I think that maybe when Harry battles Voldy (in book seven, most likely) he'll eat some. What do you think about this?

TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 4, 2004 2:31 pm (#861 of 2971)
Edited Aug 4, 2004 3:35 pm

True, but if it were me I'd surely want to learn occlumency, after all, I'd really hate the idea of someone being able to invade my mind. Also consider the secrets that can be learned from Harry. DD says another interesting thing along those lines...that nothing could have been more dangerous than to open your mind even further to Voldemort while in my presence -

Heads off to St Mungo's again...giggling madly...just the thought of someone wanting to get in this mind...

neu - Aug 4, 2004 3:22 pm (#862 of 2971)

It sounds like something Hermione would suggest! Although, Voldemort's curses might a bit strong for pickled rat to block.

penguin patronus - Aug 4, 2004 3:58 pm (#863 of 2971)

True neu, but it would at least block some of the more minor ones, and the effects of the bigger curses probably wouldn't be as, shall I say harsh? I just wonder if they will use it later...

Green Eyes - Aug 5, 2004 6:45 am (#864 of 2971)

I think it will be interesting to see if Harry continues with Occlumency in book 6...Dumbledore says at the end of OOTP, "it mattered not that you could close your mind, it was your heart that saved you." Dumbledore was concerned about Harry being controlled by Voldemort through his mind, thus the need to close his mind. But if he hadn't seen the snake biting Arthur Weasley, the latter would have died. Plus all the times he "overhears" Voldemort talking to his followers when he angry or happy about something...it seems to me that this might be very valuable to the Order. When LV did try to possess Harry at the end, it wasn't really successful...Harry was aware of what was going on - he might have been sort of paralyzed from the pain but when Harry thought of Sirius, LV couldn't stand to stay in his body. Harry was able to "get rid of" LV, ulike either Quirrell or Ginny in their experiences. I think now that Harry knows what's going on he will be better able to understand what is happening to him and react accordingly.

Padfoot - Aug 5, 2004 8:19 am (#865 of 2971)

I think Harry should continue with Occlumency. If he actually tries to learn it this time it will be helpful in the future. He may not need it for Voldemort, but it might come in useful standing up to the DE's. Besides, if he does become an Auror, that will be a useful skill to have.

Steve Newton - Aug 5, 2004 8:24 am (#866 of 2971)

I think that Harry already knows Occlumency. He just needs to practice. He has been able to learn other spells after only a few tries and I don't see why Occlumency would be any different.

Will he practice?

Paulus Maximus - Aug 5, 2004 11:19 am (#867 of 2971)

But if he hadn't seen the snake biting Arthur Weasley, the latter would have died. Plus all the times he overhears" Voldemort talking to his followers when he angry or happy about something...it seems to me that this might be very valuable to the Order."

But Voldemort already knows how to feed Harry false information, so this tool won't be so useful anymore.

Ann - Aug 5, 2004 12:24 pm (#868 of 2971)

But Voldemort already knows how to feed Harry false information, so this tool won't be so useful anymore.

But perhaps if he learns Occlumency and Legilimency he will both be able to control when he shares Voldemort's thoughts and to determine whether they truly reflect what is going on. That would be useful indeed. And the fact that he was able to read Snape's mind at one point (excuse the crude Muggle phrasing) suggests he might be really good at it, now that he's motivated.

Sir Tornado - Aug 6, 2004 9:03 pm (#869 of 2971)

If Harry learns Legimency; would he be able to control Voldemort himself?

Chris. - Aug 6, 2004 9:14 pm (#870 of 2971)

I don't think so.

Even though Voldemort is evil, he is very powerful, like Dumbledore. Harry was having problems learning Occulmency, so I doubt he could learn Legimency.

Paulus Maximus - Aug 6, 2004 9:18 pm (#871 of 2971)

And besides, isn't the use of Legilimency strictly monitored by the Ministry? Snape said that Veritaserum was, and Legilimency is, if anything, more revealing than Veritaserum...

Chris. - Aug 6, 2004 9:22 pm (#872 of 2971)

Paulus, I don't think it's ever been said, but I suppose it could be construed as illegal. You are stealing people's thoughts, after all.

Julia. - Aug 8, 2004 7:34 pm (#873 of 2971)

Penguin Patronus, you might want to re ask your question on the shipping thread. This thread is to talk about Harry specifically, and not who we think he's going to snog. For people like me who don't care to read about shipping we simply avoid that thread, but it makes it harder to avoid it if it keeps turning up on the character threads. Thanks!

Paulus Maximus - Aug 8, 2004 8:07 pm (#874 of 2971)

The use of Veritaserum is controlled by very strict Ministry guidelines (Snape, GF, paraphrased).

That much, at least, has been said.

Knowing Harry, he might use some Veritaserum without the Ministry's permission...

septentrion - Aug 9, 2004 12:14 am (#875 of 2971)

as he did in some fanfiction Julia and I like very much

Archangel - Aug 9, 2004 4:40 am (#876 of 2971)

Do you think Harry will be as passionate about Quidditch or playing Quidditch as he was before Sirius' death? I mean he mentioned something in the end of OOP that his world seemed to have been split to the time when Sirius was alive and not that he was gone. I don't have the book with me so I can't post the exact quote but I think I pretty much conveyed its meaning. (If I didn't, I apologize in advance.)

Knowing that the Firebolt was a gift from his godfather and that he was a passionate supporter of the sport, do you think that Harry would play Quidditch next year (or even consider playing) given his new outlook in life and his heavy responsibility? Granted that Quidditch is a big deal in the wizarding world but it is afterall, still just a game.

Looking forward to your responses. Cheers!

Duncan - Aug 9, 2004 5:25 am (#877 of 2971) Reply
Edited by Aug 9, 2004 6:26 am

I think Harry is going to find that the Quidditch is a escape for all his problems, and also he is going to have a bigger responsability if he is chossen captain, so I think Quidditch is going to help him to get truogh all this.

boop - Aug 9, 2004 5:46 am (#878 of 2971)
Edited Aug 9, 2004 7:01 am

How do we know that Harry will even be allowed to play Quidditch. After all he was banned from playing ever again. I know Umbridge is no longer at Hogswarts, but maybe he still will be banned from playing. Besides won't he have enough to deal with, without worrying about being captain of the team.

Duncan - Aug 9, 2004 5:51 am (#879 of 2971)

I think he will be allowed to play and I think he will look foward to play and be capitan and also be Head Boy (sorry Ron),I think this stuff is going to make him forget, unless for a minute, all his problems whith LV

Kasse - Aug 9, 2004 5:51 am (#880 of 2971)

I agree with Duncan I can see Quidditch as a release for him. I think we all know that he was unfairly banned from the sport I am sure that McGonogal (Sp?) will allow Harry to re-join the team.

mike miller - Aug 9, 2004 6:19 am (#881 of 2971)

I think Harry's ban will be lifted and Quidditch will be Harry's "mental health" activity. I don't think he'll be made captain. Like the role of Prefect, Harry will have too many other distractions to allow him to captain the team. The captaincy has been debated on other threads, but I think it will be either Ron or maybe Ginny. Ginny if McGonagall see value in having consistency in the role of captain as Ginny could lead the team for 3 years instead of having a new captain every year.

Puja - Aug 9, 2004 6:52 am (#882 of 2971)
Edited Aug 9, 2004 7:53 am

You are right Mike, but I don't think that capitancy will be given to either Ron or Ginny, both of them are new and lack experience. I think captaincy would be given to Katie.

Paulus Maximus - Aug 9, 2004 8:53 am (#883 of 2971)
Edited Aug 9, 2004 9:53 am

After all he was banned from playing ever again.

In Ginny's words, he was banned as long as Umbridge was at Hogwarts, and there's a difference. And since Umbridge is no longer at Hogwarts...

T Brightwater - Aug 9, 2004 9:22 am (#884 of 2971)

I can't imagine Dumbeldore or McGonagall upholding any of Umbridge's decrees or decisions. It may be that Harry will lose interest in playing or doesn't have time.

ShelterGirl - Aug 9, 2004 9:50 am (#885 of 2971)

I can actually see McGonagall cackling happily to herself as she scratches out each and every decree. And T- we all know what happens when witches begin to cackle...*ahem*

I don't think Harry will ever lose interest in playing, but his game might suffer as his responsibilities increase. I agree that he needs at least one outlet in his life to keep from going stark raving loopy.

T Brightwater - Aug 9, 2004 10:16 am (#886 of 2971)

I will not start a Terry Pratchett tangent, though I could draw a parallel between Voldemort using Harry's blood in his "rebodification" and what happened when a bunch of vampires bit Granny Weatherwax. (Bad! Bad!...can't iron hands...aha! *hits self on head with lamp*)

Anyway, now that I think about it, we've seen Harry use Quidditch as a distraction before. After he returned from the World Cup, he went off to play with the Weasleys, much to Hermione's disgust. I seem to recall he mentions elsewhere that he appreciates post-practice fatigue as a way to keep him from thinking about everything else in his life.

schoff - Aug 9, 2004 10:10 pm (#887 of 2971)

Harry needs to play Quidditch to keep in shape. So far it's been his quick reflexes that have saved him from his encounters from Voldemort, not his knowledge.

Phelim Mcintyre - Aug 10, 2004 4:13 am (#888 of 2971)

T Brightwater. If you will not carpe jugulum who will? I've never heard JKR talk about Disk World, so I'm not sure about the idea.

I do agree though with Quiddich being a distration. Training and playing will allow him to use all that pent up energy.

McSnurp - Aug 10, 2004 7:30 am (#889 of 2971)

If Harry doesn't have Quidditch to sustain him. He will definatly fall into bad hands. The fact remains that that happened in book four, so it might happen in book six.

Padfoot - Aug 10, 2004 9:54 am (#890 of 2971)

I think Harry will be on the Quiddich team in the next two books, however he will not be the captain. I agree with Mike's comments in his last post. Harry has to have some fun after all.

Archangel - Aug 10, 2004 6:46 pm (#891 of 2971)

Wouldn't riding the Firebolt remind him so much of Sirius since it's a gift from him? But I do agree with what most of you said, he definitely needs a distraction or a light activity to keep him from going bonkers.

Shanda - Aug 10, 2004 7:46 pm (#892 of 2971)

I think that riding the firebolt will remind him of Sirius in a good way. He will remember how much Sirius loved watching him play quddich and I think that will help him with Sirius's death. Also I agree that Harry will need something to distract him from everything that he'll have to deal with. I don't think that he will be captian, but he will definately take up the seeker postition again.

Puja - Aug 13, 2004 7:22 am (#893 of 2971)
Edited Aug 13, 2004 8:31 am

This has been discussed several times that Harry knows legilimency,and we all agree with that. But today when I was reading OotP, I realised that Harry doesn't have this power.

The arguments which several people have given regarding Harry being a legilimens (sp?) are :

1. He could read LV's thoughts.

2. He could see Snape's memories of his childhood.

Well, the reason that Harry's can read LV's thoughts is not legilimency, but the scar which is a link between him and LV. And regarding Sanpe's memories I think Harry could see them because he used the "Protego" spell to defend himself.

In OotP Pg 488 (UK) it is written " Shield charm -a means of deflecting minor jinxes so that they rebounded upon the attacker"

Harry could see Snape's memory because he just backfired Legilimens spell on Snape.

From this I came to the conclusion that LV has transferred only those powers to Harry which he had inherited from his ancestors (like Parseltongue and other slytherin traits, and may be other powers about which we don't know yet), and not those which he has himself learned.

Well, what do you think about this?

Elanor - Aug 13, 2004 8:06 am (#894 of 2971)

Well, Puja, I think that does really make sense and I agree with you ! But, that doesn't mean that we already know all the powers LV transferred to Harry and that himself isn't aware of yet. He may have legilimency skills but not know how to use them yet. BTW, he could use that powers without realizing it (as when he first spoke parseltongue at the zoo).

And I wonder if this wasn't what happened when he "blown up" Aunt Marge because he was really angry but not meant to do that, just like when he made the glass disappeared at the zoo. Was it just some kind of "wizard temper" or the sign that he has something else to discover coming from Voldemort?

Ann - Aug 13, 2004 8:31 am (#895 of 2971)
Edited Aug 13, 2004 9:32 am

That's an interesting idea, Puja: that Voldemort transferred his innate abilities, but not his learned skills, to Harry. So Harry could learn to be as great a wizard as Voldemort ("It's all in here," says the Sorting Hat), but he doesn't have the knowledge of how to use all his talents yet.

The only evidence I've seen that he's got more than just the talent is that weird little bit in OotP where an Easter egg brings a lump to his throat, and he is both embarrassed and puzzled about why. It was suggested that this might be a memory of Voldemort's re-surfacing, although others have said (though I don't completely agree), that we can feel odd waves of strong emotion for no apparent reason. (I think we usually have some idea.) Anyway, I do wonder if Voldemort's memories as well as his talents were transferred, both because of that incident and the fact that JKR says we'll learn more about Voldemort's early life and how & why he went bad before the end of the series. Having Harry experience Voldemort's memories seems like a good mechanism for that.

T Brightwater - Aug 13, 2004 8:57 am (#896 of 2971)

I assumed that Harry's reaction to the Easter Egg was because it made him think of Mrs. Weasley, who's the closest thing to a mother he's ever had. Remember (from the Mirror of Erised scene) that "the deepest, most desperate desire" of Harry's heart is to be part of a _family_. He's really only had that feeling at the Burrow.

However, there may well be more to it than that. Good observation, Ann!

mike miller - Aug 13, 2004 9:15 am (#897 of 2971)

Hollywand made a statement over on the Hermione thread that got me thinking and since it relates to Harry, I'm bringing the idea here. Hollywand was comparing/constrasting the way Hermoine and Harry each deal with the perseved plight of the house elves.

In Harry's case he "tricks Lucius into freeing Dobby". What if Harry somehow tricks Voldemort in such a way that brings about his demise? I see this possibly happening in several diferent ways. Harry could take advantage of Voldemort's anger at not being able to kill Harry to get him to do something that exposes a vulnerability. Let's face it, Voldemort does not choose wisely when it comes to dealing with Harry. Another option would be for Harry to leverage the connection he has with Voldemort's mind to trick him into believing something that causes the action that exposes the weakness. (a reverse Sirius effect) Add the life debt owed Harry by Peter and the possibilities really run wild.

I know I don't have many details, just a concept, the whole idea was sparked by Hollywand's comparison. I'm sure this group can come up with many ways that this could play out. I really think that Harry somehow tricking Voldemort, leveraging his arrogence or anger, into exposing his weak spot may be how this is going to end.

Ann - Aug 13, 2004 11:28 am (#898 of 2971)

Thanks, T Brightwater, but it wasn't my idea. Someone else mentioned it in passing, and I looked up the scene and found it very weird indeed.

DJ Evans - Aug 13, 2004 12:02 pm (#899 of 2971)
Edited Aug 13, 2004 1:03 pm

Let's face it, Voldemort does not choose wisely when it comes to dealing with Harry." Mike Miller

So true, Mike. When you really think about it, for someone who is "suppose" to be such a smart wizard, he definitely leaves something to be desire in the ways that he has handled Harry so far. I know if he acted as smart as he is suppose to be, then there wouldn't be much to the books. But sometimes I have to wonder at some of the things he does do.

In what you said about ...if Harry somehow tricks Voldemort in such a way that brings about his demise? I can see something like that coming about for sure. It would fit in with how things have been going so far, wouldn't it?

Or going in a different direction in a way here -- as it's been said there are quite a few things that they both have in common. Such as both half-bloods, not raised by their parents, etc.... Where as Harry made the best out of his situation that he was able to, LV let it eat at him like a cancer & is basically just filled with anger/hatred. Harry knows and values the emotion of love (craves it in fact) where as LV feels nothing but contempt for it. So maybe this is how Harry will bring about LV's demise? Many of us have been taught that it is better to forget & forgive -- might this come into play between Harry & LV? Could there be a situation where Harry has the opportunity to do such a thing and by LV not being able to grasp this concept at all, be weaken and taken care of? I mean if you are a mean ol' person and treat your fellow man with nothing but hatred & anger, you expect nothing better from others. Always expecting the worse from all others & the only trust you have is that everybody out there to get you. So love & forgiveness just might be the downfall of LV in the end. Could be why DD calls LV Tom all of time -- to bring the "friend" factor back home to LV. To remind LV of a time when he did have friends that weren't out to get him & might even have cared for him at some point?

I know it's kinda of an out there logic & I know I'm probably not expressing my thoughts here very well, but maybe some of you will catch what I'm trying to say here?

Later, Deb

septentrion - Aug 14, 2004 2:23 am (#900 of 2971)

The way Harry tricked Lucius was very slytherin-like indeed. It shows us that slytherin characteristics aren't evil in themselves but in the way people use them. And we know that Harry is rather slytherin-like, if not, the sorting hat wouldn't have thought to send him in this house. The diference between Harry and the other Slytherins we know is the way they use their characteristics. So we may think Harry could use his slytherin abilities to trick LV to his downfall, and surely LV wouldn't expect that from Harry.

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ReadingNut - Aug 14, 2004 4:44 am (#901 of 2971)

DJ Evans said "Harry knows and values the emotion of love (craves it in fact) where as LV feels nothing but contempt for it."

I agree with this and it scares me a little. I can see that maybe LV (or should I say Tom) was craving love like Harry at some point - and was deeply hurt in some way. (Well, we know several ways already). It scares me a little that Harry could have been in that same place but for a few different choices.

Earlier someone (sorry - forgot who) posted an interesting thing - that perhaps Lily's sacrifice also protected the good in Harry. I really like this idea because I always wonder how Harry could have the background to make such good choices.

I do agree that Harry will "vanquish" LV with Love in some way - and I think it is also true that LV will be tricked. Doesn't he often "underestimate" the power of love?

DJ Evans - Aug 14, 2004 6:52 pm (#902 of 2971)

Doesn't he often "underestimate" the power of love?: Reading Nut

So true there. But you know, I'm also thinking LV doesn't "understand" love -- so to him it doesn't even exist -- & that's one of his biggest problems. Anger & hatred are his only two true friends that he has and he feeds those 2 emotions every chance he gets. Which to me is really scary!!!

Later, Deb

The giant squid - Aug 14, 2004 11:26 pm (#903 of 2971)

the power of love

Thanks, now I have a Huey Lewis & The News song running through my head...

ReadingNut - Aug 15, 2004 3:18 am (#904 of 2971)

Glad to oblige.

Archangel - Aug 15, 2004 8:14 pm (#905 of 2971)

I noticed some interesting similarities between Harry and Hercules. Hercules were given 12 nearly-impossible tasks in order to atone for the killing his family in a fit of madness. Granted that Harry hasn't done anything as dastardly as that (although I'm thinking that he must have said out loud he could kill the Dursleys in one of his outbursts), he has faced a lot of tasks and passed them if barely that even grown up wizards failed at.

Hercules' last task was go to down to the Underworld and to bring Cerberus back from Pluto. Pluto allowed him to bring Cerberus back only if he doesn't use any weapons to subdue him. Hercules did it with his god-like strength. IMO, magic and the ability to do magic wouldn't matter in Harry's face off with Voldemort. He would have to rely on his greatest strength, his heart, to win that epic battle.

Of course, the sad thing is that Hercules got injured so badly in the end but he still couldn't die. However he decided that he would go willingly with Death and thus built a pyre and he lay in it. After this, he got into Olympus, gor reunited with his mother Hera, and you could say lived happily ever after. (Does this mean Harry would indeed die in the end? *sniff*)

Leila 2X4B - Aug 15, 2004 8:18 pm (#906 of 2971)

Hera is not Heracles mother. Actually Hera detested Hercules because he was a result of Zeus' philandering

Archangel - Aug 15, 2004 8:22 pm (#907 of 2971)

You're right Sleeping Beauty. I misread the last line in the mythology book I was reading. He reconciled with Hera and married her daughter Hebe. Hercules' mother is Alcmena. Thanks for pointing this out. Cheers!

Mrs. Sirius - Aug 15, 2004 8:43 pm (#908 of 2971)
Edited Aug 15, 2004 9:44 pm

Harry doesn't die in book 7!!! JK's chat in Scotland today revealed that. You can check out the transcipt on her site, HPANA and Leaky also have it.

Chris. - Aug 15, 2004 8:51 pm (#909 of 2971)

Mrs Sirius, JKR said he doesn't die up to book seven which means he will be alive at the start of book seven, but maybe not at the end.

Archangel - Aug 15, 2004 8:51 pm (#910 of 2971)

I don’t think it is giving too much away to say that he will survive to book seven, mainly because I do not want to be strangled by you lot, but I am not going to say whether he grows any older than that because I have never said that.

Based on JKR's answer, my impression was that Harry will make it onto Book 7 which shouldn't be doubted since if he dies in Book 6 then that'll just leave us with 6 books and the whole book 7 would have been an epilogue. Whether he lives or dies, the jury's still out on that one.

Archangel - Aug 15, 2004 8:52 pm (#911 of 2971)

Prongs, we posted at the same time. Haha! Smile

Mrs. Sirius - Aug 16, 2004 4:42 am (#912 of 2971)

Thank you, I misunderstood that to mean that he lived until the end of book 7, but might die for the epilogue.

Good Evans - Aug 16, 2004 10:03 am (#913 of 2971)

I think nwe all surmised he would live to book 7 - otherwise what would the title have been ?????? Lord Voldemort and the final triumph????? hehe

septentrion - Aug 16, 2004 11:45 pm (#914 of 2971)

Welcome Chrissy Elizabeth ! I hope you'll have fun posting and reading on this forum. I'd just want to tell you to please capitalize your "I" to make your posts clearer as a lot of people here haven't English as their mother tongue, and to introduce yourself in the "tell about yourself" thread soemwhere above this thread.

Chrissy Elizabeth - Aug 17, 2004 6:30 am (#915 of 2971)

Hi, Im new here...after reading most of these posts, I think what harry really needs is a really good cry. he has so much anger and hatred as well as love built up inside of him and I think the only way he will be able to cope with the events that happened in OoP is by letting it all out. I dont think we've ever really seen harry break down(in tears rather than in anger like in DD's office)...at least not in front of people...I think if he does (and I kind of want this to happen in front of adults who are close to him i.e. Lupin or DD), he will be able clear his mind a little. also, I think him being comforted by adults such as Lupin or DD will really show him how much he is loved and allow him to grow into an even better person

Hermy-own - Aug 17, 2004 10:16 am (#916 of 2971)

Yes, good point Chrissy.

Sirius would have been the obvious adult figure to comfort Harry during a "break down".

DD and Harry weren't on the best of terms throughout OotP and unless JKR chooses to ameliorate their relationship in HBP I don't see Harry crying infront of him too soon.

Lupin - there's still time for JKR to develop something between him and Harry. In fact, I'm going to check out the 'Lupin is really James Potter' thread. It sounds interesting...

T Brightwater - Aug 18, 2004 5:25 am (#917 of 2971)

I'm going to expand on a theory I posted earlier, and probably other people have as well.

How on earth can Harry be such a good person? From the time he was fifteen months old until his eleventh birthday, he had no love, no encouragement, no friendship, no kindness; he was used as a punching bag, blamed for things he didn't do (as far as he knows) and treated worse than dirt. Yet when he gets on the Hogwarts Express, he makes friends with Ron within minutes, and enjoys, not only having the money to buy sweets for the first time in his life, but _sharing_ them with someone. He instinctively understands that Malfoy thinks he's better than everyone else and that he's only acting friendly to Harry because Harry's famous.

He finds Hermione extremely annoying at first (a lot of people do) but when the troll gets loose, he thinks of her, goes to warn her, and then helps to save her from the troll, becoming her friend as well. (Imagine Malfoy and someone who annoyed him in this situation.)

He talks about cursing Dudley in his first visit to the bookstore in Diagon Alley, and he takes out some of his frustration on a person who went out of his way to make life hell for him for ten years, but he saves him from the Dementors and then half-carries him home (no small task, even after a year's worth of dieting.)

I think Harry is protected by his mother's sacrifice in more ways than he knows.

Hermy-own - Aug 18, 2004 6:25 am (#918 of 2971)

Good stuff TBrightwater!

Archangel - Aug 18, 2004 7:05 am (#919 of 2971)

Could be the "green eyes from his mother" acts a protection from unleasing the dark emotions in him? Lupin did say that his mother was able to see good in people even if they themselves do not.

Time Traveler - Aug 18, 2004 8:02 am (#920 of 2971)

---How on earth can Harry be such a good person? --- T Brightwater

Hi, I'm a newcomer in this thread.. T Brightwater, I've always wandered the question, too!

He had been mistreated for 10 years by his own aunt, uncle, and thier son, even after he entered the school he had been tormented by his fellow students agitated by his cousin, Dudley. I don't think the Dursleys had been kinder to Harry in his babyhood. In this time, there were no one who had stood by him at all, in spite of Dursleys' incredible maltreatment. I have always been surprised at the way they treated him. They didn't feed him well, they didn't care about his hygiene, they simply ignored him. When they were angry at him for some reason, they easily used violence on him, for example, choking, or smashing with a weapon(?) like a frying pan. I believe it's just impossible to happen in Britain.. There are number of neighbors and they must have known that!! He had been treated without concerning his Muggle-rights and individuality! So to me, the depiction of the Dursleys are somewhat cartoon-like. You know, the cartoon characters are beaten to death, but revive soon..

Anyway, entering Hogwart and Wizarding society, he's plainly gotten some friends and supporters, even admirers some time, but he's had also foes and enemies as many as his supporters or even much more than them all the time. The life at Hogwart was very very tough, too. Oh, the detentions with Umbridge? There must be some different ideas about Wizard/Witch-rights.. (I know she is very cruel in Wizarding society, too, but there are many other things that gave such an impression to me..)

Hence, he has been growing up in the almost unbearable trials during his almost all life time of 15 years. And we all saw that in the last book, OoP, he became very irritable and confused.. He easily started yelling at their friends and sometimes even at his professors. However, I don't want to blame him at all. Rather, I personally think his behaviors are very natural and prearranged course of actions. As I'm studying psychology, I think Harry has a "hidden depression." A hidden depressive person, usually they are teenagers, commits very anti-social acts positively unlike general depressed people. However, when he/she takes a psychological examination, it turns out that his/her depression score is very high. That is, their depression is the motive of their anti-social acts.

I'll not be surprised if he's going to take a therapy in future books.. Oh, he really needs lots of help, support, concern, comfort, affection and love!! Just crying is not enough! Please come and I'll willingly lend my shoulder for you!

T Brightwater - Aug 18, 2004 8:45 am (#921 of 2971)

Welcome, Time Traveler!

They didn't feed him well, they didn't care about his hygiene, they simply ignored him. When they were angry at him for some reason, they easily used violence on him, for example, choking, or smashing with a weapon(?) like a frying pan. I believe it's just impossible to happen in Britain..

You'd be shocked at what can happen in "normal" middle class homes in civilized countries. If the neighbors had any idea of what was going on, they'd probably think that the Dursleys were well within their rights to discipline an unruly child, especially one who was left on their doorstep. (None of them are actually going to bother to find out what Harry is really like.) Aunt Marge may be slightly exaggerated, but probably a lot of the neighbors think the same way she does - that Harry has "bad blood," that his parents were drug addicts or alcoholics, and that it was positively saintly of the Dursleys to take him in.

The impression I get of the elder Dursleys is that they seem to stop short of causing real physical damage - Aunt Petunia doesn't actually connect with that frying pan, does she? Their favorite punishment is locking Harry in his room. They do feed him (even if insufficiently), clothe him (even if it's in Dudley's cast-offs), take him to get his eyes checked, and send him to school, where he somehow manages to do reasonably well. I suspect Dumbledore's letter (and maybe some shreds of human decency) may have helped keep Harry from sustaining worse injuries than getting his glasses broken.

Notice a very good writer at work, in the last sentence of the first paragraph of chapter 4 in CoS:

What Harry found most unusual about life at Ron's, however, wasn't the talking mirror or the clanking ghoul: It was the fact that everybody there seemed to like him.

For me at least, that brings home what Harry's life at the Dursleys' is like more forcefully than anything else.

True Love - Aug 18, 2004 5:07 pm (#922 of 2971)

You would be surprised at the sort of abuse children can (and do) take and still end up being nice individuals. Once Harry is exposed to other nice people like Hagrid, Hermione and Ron, he realizes being nice isn't abnormal. Of course he ends up angry in his later teen years, being kept in the dark about so much. Think how people react when secrets are kept - especially family related secrets. A lot of people don't think young people can handle tragic or disturbing information about their familes but I have always observed that keeping secrets only causes more harm in the long run.

Green Eyes - Aug 18, 2004 5:35 pm (#923 of 2971)

I think we are putting a little too much "real life" into Harry's upbringing, although he was certainly "abused" by the Dursley's if not in a physical way, then emotionally. I think the best therapy for Harry will be the "vanquishing" of the DL! However, I've posted this whole theory on a couple of different threads because I think it is central to why/how Harry has power the Dark Lord knows not. He is able to love after all of that. Yes, I believe it is the protection his mother gave him.

One thing to consider...the Dursley's may have inadvertantly "trained" Harry with their abuse of him. He is so averse to any sort of dominance by anyone (Snape, Malfoy, Umbridge, even Hermione!) and this mainly due to his upbringing. This may serve him well if LV tries to "possess" or dominate him in the future.

Ann - Aug 18, 2004 10:19 pm (#924 of 2971)
Edited Aug 18, 2004 11:19 pm

I think Time Traveller is right about the cartoonishness of life with the Dursleys--although fairy-tale like is perhaps more accurate. (Cinderella comes to mind, since she turned out to be a sweet, cheerful person, too, at least in the Disney movie!)

There is this rather widely held belief that oppressed people are more virtuous than those who've always got what they wanted, and that adversity builds character, but I'm not sure it is true in real life. I think that it's what you do with whatever you do get that makes the difference--look at the way Harry enjoys getting the remainder of Dudley's not-quite-perfect Knickerbocker Glory in PS.

T Brightwater, another interesting post. It also made me realize something I'd never thought of before: that Aunt Marge mirrors the blood obsession of the DEs/purebloods in the magical world. I'd forgotten that she talked about "bad blood." (And that's when the glass broke!)

S.E. Jones - Aug 18, 2004 11:20 pm (#925 of 2971)
Edited Aug 19, 2004 12:26 am

There is this rather widely held belief that oppressed people are more virtuous than those who've always got what they wanted, and that adversity builds character, but I'm not sure it is true in real life.

It seems that most people, when put into extreme situations in childhood (such as growing up with alcoholic parents) swing toward one pole or the other (they either become alcoholics themselves, this is a mimicking behavior as they are resorting to the coping mechanisms they learned by observing their parents, or make a conscious choice not to touch liquor, this is very much a cognitive stance against the mimicking behavior but requires new coping mechanisms to be learned). I think Harry, like most orphans, grew up with one saving grace - he didn't remember his parents (not remembering them means he never remembers any fights, never remembers any bad scenes; his mind can fill in all the blanks with wonderful, idealistic, unrealistic fantasy) thus he could put them up on pedestals and remind himself that there were people somewhere once who loved and wanted him, even if they weren't there now (which wasn't their fault). This would allow him to go into his own head when the Dursleys raged on about something; I think we might even see him do this once in the books (that is actually make mental comments along the lines of reminding himself of his parents and that they wanted him even if the Dursleys don't). I think this also allowed Harry to take a step back from his situation, in a way, and make a cognitive choice to not be like the Dursleys, instead of mimicking the behavior he saw them exhibiting. I also think this is why Harry is so introverted and so often "goes into his own head" when he is upset or stressed (we saw a lot of this in OotP). Just my opinion.

As for the "hidden depression", I took his behavior in OotP to be more along the lines of PTSD, or at least acute stress disorder. I actually sat down once and started matching his behavior to the DSM-IV criteria once.... It's an OCD thing to do.....

T Brightwater - Aug 19, 2004 5:55 am (#926 of 2971)

Very perceptive, S.E.! Have a butterbeer!

My own adoptive father was an alcoholic; fairly early on I realized that there was something wrong there and I wasn't going to do it. (I also decided not to make my mother's mistake and marry a guy like that. JKR's right, girls - don't bother with the bad boys!) I also spent a lot of my childhood in my own head, or in books. Although I knew I was adopted, I don't remember ever imagining anything about my birth parents.

I think the incident you refer to is in PoA, when Aunt Marge is speaking derisively of Harry and his parents and he's trying to think about his broomstick servicing manual.

Harry's got enough trauma in his past to have PTSD. What is acute stress disorder like?

S.E. Jones - Aug 19, 2004 1:17 pm (#927 of 2971)

It is technically PTSD but only has to last for less than a month instead of the required full month or more to be qualified as full-blown PTSD.

I don't think that's the reference I'm thinking of.

constant vigilance - Aug 19, 2004 4:13 pm (#928 of 2971)

I think Harry, like most orphans, grew up with one saving grace - he didn't remember his parents (not remembering them means he never remembers any fights, never remembers any bad scenes; his mind can fill in all the blanks with wonderful, idealistic, unrealistic fantasy) thus he could put them up on pedestals and remind himself that there were people somewhere once who loved and wanted him, even if they weren't there now (which wasn't their fault)

S.E. Jones, I think you're totally right about this. I also think that this is why Harry was so upset by what he saw in Snape's Penseive.

Up until that point, he had only positive things to think about his parents. Anybody who knew the Potters when they were alive told Harry what was good about them, with the exception of people Harry didn't like anyway (i.e. the Dursleys and Snape) so he never took the negative stories seriously. Actually seeing evidence of his father being a bully was traumatizing for Harry, because it completely shattered Harry's idealised version of who his father had been.

Hermy-own - Aug 19, 2004 5:36 pm (#929 of 2971)

Well said, constant vigilance.

A small compensation is that Harry can safely assume his father changed his ways - it is unlikey Lily would have dated (and eventually married) him if he remained a bully.

septentrion - Aug 20, 2004 12:39 am (#930 of 2971)

but you can consider it's essential for Harry to know how his father really was in order to grow up. Harry can't remain a child, he has to mature as everybody does, and he only can do it with understanding that any people, even the best ones, aren't just "perfect".

Time Traveler - Aug 20, 2004 2:23 am (#931 of 2971)
Edited Aug 20, 2004 3:25 am

I agree with you septentrion.
I read an essay titled "The Changing Image of Grown-Ups in the Harry Potter books" by Elizabeth Dalton, and here's her prediction..

=============================================================================================
I predict that in future books, as Harry becomes close to "grown up" himself, he'll come closer and closer to a viewpoint like this:

Grownups are just people (like you). Some are good, some are bad. Some may have reasons for acting that you don't know about or understand. Some are more powerful than you, some less so. Some are wiser than you, some less so. All of them are mortal. And so are you.
============================================================================================

Harry already know he or his friends are not perfect and I think he will accept that Sirius or his parents were not perfect although they showed great goodness and nobleness to Harry..
IMHO the imperfectness of any human is very important because Harry will have to take advantage of imperfectness of Voldemort..

Catherine - Aug 20, 2004 4:06 am (#932 of 2971)

As for the "hidden depression", I took his behavior in OotP to be more along the lines of PTSD, or at least acute stress disorder. I actually sat down once and started matching his behavior to the DSM-IV criteria once.... It's an OCD thing to do..... S.E. Jones

I liked your analysis here, Sarah, and I would like to encourage you in OCD!

**compelled to go to the DSM-IV to find out if I have OCD, also**

Padfoot - Aug 20, 2004 8:12 am (#933 of 2971)

**compelled to go to the DSM-IV to find out if I have OCD, also** -Catherine

LOL. So many jokesters on this forum.

Harry can't remain a child, he has to mature as everybody does, and he only can do it with understanding that any people, even the best ones, aren't just "perfect". -septentrion

I agree with this more than saying Harry was traumatized. Sure it was upsetting, but we all learn our parents are not perfect.

Fawkes - Aug 24, 2004 8:29 am (#934 of 2971)

Traumatized? That's even an understatement. From the very beginning of living with the Dursleys up until now...any normal child would probably be severely traumatized, unable to trust anyone, and much less like Harry is now. How the Dursleys treated him is child abuse, you know.

I do, however, think that much of Harry's behavior in OOtP was quite childish; he overreacted a lot.

Paulus Maximus - Aug 24, 2004 8:40 am (#935 of 2971)

A small compensation is that Harry can safely assume his father changed his ways - it is unlikey Lily would have dated (and eventually married) him if he remained a bully.

And it's also unlikely that James would have bothered to pull Snape out of the Shrieking Shack if he had remained a bully.

Hermy-own - Aug 24, 2004 8:56 am (#936 of 2971)
Edited Aug 24, 2004 9:57 am

Yes, I sort of agree, Paulus. "Sort of" because one could argue that James only rescued Snape to keep Sirius out of trouble. After all, it was his practical joke (unless I'm mistaken - does anyone remember what actually happened?)

S.E. Jones - Aug 24, 2004 12:14 pm (#937 of 2971)

We don't really know what actually happened. Snape said it was a practical joke (Lupin said it was a sort of practical joke, or something along those lines, though I get the feeling he doesn't know everything about what happened) and Sirius said that Snape deserved what he got. JKR said we'd find out more in regards to the Shack incident later:

World Day, March 2004:
Kyla: What made Sirius decide to send Snape to the Willow?
JK Rowling replies -> Because Sirius loathed Snape (and the feeling was entirely mutual). You'll find out more about this in due course.

T Brightwater - Aug 24, 2004 12:25 pm (#938 of 2971)

Sirius said that Snape deserved what he got.

Hmmm. Put that together with Dumbledore saying "My memory is as good as it ever was," and I start to wonder what Snape's contributions to the mutual bad feeling were. His memory in the Pensieve showed him as an innocent bystander, at least at first, but happened after that?

Upulwan - Aug 25, 2004 1:17 am (#939 of 2971)

I think it says somewhere in the books that Sirius conned a clueless Snape into going to the Shrieking Shack while Lupin was transforming, and James, after finding out, ran after Snape before he got mauled.(Alas!) Bear with me, I'll try to find exact quote, it's somewhere in GoF or OoP.

Ann - Aug 25, 2004 10:38 am (#940 of 2971)

Upulwan, it's in the Shrieking Shack scene in PoA.

S.E. Jones - Aug 25, 2004 1:44 pm (#941 of 2971)

Yes, Upulwan, that's what it says (well, that's the version of things that Lupin gives us), then Sirius says he deserved it. We aren't given the full details at any point. I've always wondered if Snape didn't retaliate for the "depantsing" that he got from James as seen in the Pensieve which then resulted in Sirius retaliating via the Shack incident. That's very much how a sixteen year old boy's mind would work....

TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 25, 2004 2:32 pm (#942 of 2971)

Very important point there SE, he has matured in some skills, but emotionally is not one of them.

penguin patronus - Aug 25, 2004 3:30 pm (#943 of 2971)

Earlier, people were talking about the room of requirement.I don't know if this was mentioned, but I think Harry should go to the room and just say: I need something to help me vanquish Voldy. It might work...

dragon keeper - Aug 25, 2004 3:33 pm (#944 of 2971)

Wouldn't that be great?! But as JKR would say, that would just be too easy Smile

Upulwan - Aug 25, 2004 5:21 pm (#945 of 2971)

Ahh..now I get it. Thanks Ann and S.E Jones.

Gemini Wolfie - Aug 26, 2004 6:16 pm (#946 of 2971)

SE, We are told that Snape never let an opportunity pass where he could curse James so he's definitely not an innocent bystander.

Back to Harry. Since his impatience and overreacting to things in OotP has been brought up again. Are we sure it isn't because LV was affecting him? I'm not surprised that Harry has so much anger inside of him although I was suprised at the frequency and intensity of his blowups. Like James, I think all this sets up for a nice reversal come maturity.

HPGeek - Aug 26, 2004 6:27 pm (#947 of 2971)

I am hoping that Harry's mood improves in HBP. Sure, he has reason to be upset, but he needs to stop driving away people with his best interests in mind. Hopefully now that he's a little older he'll be able to understand this better.

Archangel - Aug 26, 2004 6:37 pm (#948 of 2971) Reply
Edited by Aug 26, 2004 7:38 pm

I don't think we've seen the worst of Harry's tantrums or mood swings. There's just so much emotions bottled up inside him and it's dangerous to do that. I don't think Harry's doing it on purpose though. Sad

I'm personally waiting for an emotionally-charged, spit-flying, fists-curled, wands-at-the-ready exchange between him and Snape in his potions class.

sere35 - Aug 26, 2004 7:57 pm (#949 of 2971)

Archangel I agree 100%. I also hope to see the duel between Snape and Harry that would be so cool.

Weeny Owl - Aug 26, 2004 11:51 pm (#950 of 2971)

I'm personally waiting for an emotionally-charged, spit-flying, fists-curled, wands-at-the-ready exchange between him and Snape in his potions class.

I think if that happened, Dumbledore would have no choice but to expel Harry. If something like that happened between them, it would have to be during the summer.

I would like to see Harry kick the stuffing out of that hateful little ferret.

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Upulwan - Aug 27, 2004 12:13 am (#951 of 2971)
Edited Aug 27, 2004 1:16 am

Archangel, I have to disagree. I think we HAVE seen the worst of Harry's temper. Sure, he's definitely more upset than he was before, and sure he has a truckload of bottled feelings inside him, but I also think he's very exhausted with himself, with his rage. Also his sadness at Sirius's death is probably stronger than the anger he harbours about the whole thing, which makes me think that we'll see a subdued, withdrawn Harry, which is probably worse than the jump-at-my-throat Harry we saw at the beginning of OoP.

But of course, I could be wrong!

S.E. Jones - Aug 27, 2004 4:42 am (#952 of 2971)

I have to agree Upulwan. Harry's outburst at the end of last year served a duel purpuse, in my mind. It acted to allow Harry to express some grief and anger over Sirius's death so he could begin healing, certainly, but I think it also acted to release some of the anger that had been building in Harry the entire year. Afterwards, we do see a much more subdued Harry who has now been thrown into adulthood, forget stepping over the line at his own free will, by experiencing the death of a parental figure.

Ann - Aug 27, 2004 5:20 am (#953 of 2971)
Edited Aug 27, 2004 6:21 am

I think Gemini Wolfie is right that some of Harry's anger in OotP comes from his connection with Voldemort. Has anyone pointed this out the scene where he is in his room at 12 Grimauld Place, after Mr. Weasley has been attacked and Harry has overheard speculation in the hospital that he is being possessed by Voldemort? Nigellus shows up to tell him that Dumbledore wants him to stay where he is. And it says Harry's anger "rose like a snake from the grass" (or words to that effect). Surely that is an indication that it is really Voldemort's anger he is feeling.

Perhaps as he better understands where some of his rage comes from, and learns to distinguish it from his own, he'll be able to control both more productively.

Phoenix song - Aug 27, 2004 8:07 am (#954 of 2971)

I think that it was important for Harry to express the anger that he was feeling. But I agree that I think that Harry's anger was fueling off of the anger that he was unknowingly receiving from Voldemort. We know that Voldemort was feeling a great deal of anger and frustration. I believe that we can know that Harry was being fed Voldemort's anger by the snake-like descriptions used to describe these strong feelings.

I think that in order to be any real help to the Order, Harry will need to learn to control his mind and his anger. Feeling these emotions is to be human, as Dumbledore explained. Controlling these emotions is to be mature and effective. Harry will need to learn to control these emotions in order to reign in his immense power.

I hate to make Star Wars references, (because I know that JKR would only laugh), but I'm reminded of how Luke Skywalker had to learn to control his anger in order to be an effective Jedi. Remember that Yoda explained to Luke that anger would lead him to the dark side.

Sorry, I know that I was off on a tangent! But I do wonder if shutting his mind to Voldemort will come easier to Harry now that he is aware of how dangerous it could be to let him inside. There must have been some improvement by the end of the book. I'm basing this on the way that Dumbledore wasn't afraid to look Harry in the eye at the end of the book, and that Harry didn't feel anger at looking at Dumbledore.

Weeny Owl - Aug 27, 2004 9:06 am (#955 of 2971)

There must have been some improvement by the end of the book. I'm basing this on the way that Dumbledore wasn't afraid to look Harry in the eye at the end of the book, and that Harry didn't feel anger at looking at Dumbledore.

I wondered if this was partially because Voldie was a bit too afraid of what might happen to him after he felt Harry's emotions in the Atrium. Not only that, but since he just lost a significant number of Death Eaters, he might have been too busy having to regroup and plan what to do next.

I agree with those who said Harry will be more subdued and withdrawn.

JKR said it would be Harry's shortest stay at Privet Drive, and I've wondered if that will be because Dumbledore will move Harry to Grimmauld Place or Hogwarts to give him Occlumency lessons himself.

Phoenix song - Aug 27, 2004 11:14 am (#956 of 2971)

Weeny Owl, it's a good point that you've made about Voldemort not wanting to feel Harry's emotions. I wasn't thinking about it, but if Harry feels Voldie's anger then Voldemort must feel Harry's love. I'm sure that his longing and mourning for Sirius would be too much for Voldemort to bear. Surely he'd want to avoid "tapping into" Harry's heart.

dragon keeper - Aug 27, 2004 12:23 pm (#957 of 2971)

So if Harry's feelings of love and happiness became so overwhelming at some point, would Voldemort have a choice, or would he be at the mercy of those emotions? Could that destroy him (voldy) if it were powerful enough?

Richard !!!Reid - Aug 27, 2004 1:00 pm (#958 of 2971)

Since his impatience and overreacting to things in OotP has been brought up again. Are we sure it isn't because LV was affecting him?

Yes. I agree and noticed this a while ago. Harry is very angry, however, this anger never really existed in GoF and before (before LV returned).

I believe there are pieces of Voldemort trapped inside Harry. Pieces like his skills and his temper. I can only see Harry getting angrier, unless he finds some real way of controlling his emotions. He simply cannot help it. Voldemort naturally feels this way, and therefore, Harry is conflicted between the goodness of his parents and his own soul, and the evilness of Voldemort's. That's why I think he feels regret and guilt after he loses his temper.

Richard

Padfoot - Aug 27, 2004 1:47 pm (#959 of 2971) Reply
Edited by Aug 27, 2004 2:48 pm

I agree with Upulwan. I think we have seen Harry loose it in that manner for the last time. I also agree that he will be withdrawn from Ron and Hermione and his other friends. At least he will try to separate himself from his friends. I doubt they will let him though. Harry needs them and they know this.

T Brightwater - Aug 27, 2004 2:13 pm (#960 of 2971)

At least he will try to separate himself from his friends. I doubt they will let him though. Harry needs them and they know this.

I agree, Padfoot. He's tried it once already, at 12 GP, and they wouldn't let him get away with it. Ginny'll straighten him out if no one else does. It's interesting how getting over a crush on someone you like gives you a lot of insight into that person - at least, it's happened to me that way. (Getting over a crush on someone you really don't like once the enchantment has worn off gives you a lot of insight into yourself.)

Hermy-own - Aug 27, 2004 2:37 pm (#961 of 2971)

I also agree that he will be withdrawn from Ron and Hermione and his other friends. At least he will try to separate himself from his friends.

I agree, Padfoot.

It would be interesting to see how his 'ship fits into his life with him being all withdrawn.

*Oops, ignore that last bit - I'll take it to the 'ship thread*

DJ Evans - Aug 27, 2004 3:30 pm (#962 of 2971)

I agree with Upulwan. I think we have seen Harry loose it in that manner for the last time. I also agree that he will be withdrawn from Ron and Hermione and his other friends. At least he will try to separate himself from his friends. I doubt they will let him though. Harry needs them and they know this.: Padfoot

Cynde, I think you've hit it on the nail there! I believe Harry realizes just what he might have to be facing in the near future with LV and not wanting to cost anyone their lives, will try to back off from the group. He will see it as protecting them. But sadly I can see maybe "some" of the students (& maybe a friend or two even) reading his actions as "Harry wanting to play the hero". Which is the furthest from his mind, Harry just doesn't want any more lives to be lost.

Later, Deb

Paulus Maximus - Aug 28, 2004 10:58 am (#963 of 2971)
Edited Aug 28, 2004 12:02 pm

Harry is going to have to tell Ron and Hermione about his upcoming showdown with Voldemort. Jo said that he would tell his closest friends about the lost prophecy... and who among his friends are closer to him than Ron and Hermione?

Anyway, I agree that once that happens, they'll stick to his side whether he wants it or not. Anyone with any tactical ability (such as Ron) knows that even if the battle is ultimately between Harry and Voldemort, every wand on Harry's side improves Harry's odds of defeating Voldemort. Because you can bet that Voldemort will have plenty of wands on HIS side...

S.E. Jones - Aug 28, 2004 6:27 pm (#964 of 2971)

Richard Reid: Harry is very angry, however, this anger never really existed in GoF and before (before LV returned).

Why would it exist in GoF or before? The way I always saw it was from the point of view of Harry's experiences leading to acute stress disorder at the beginning of OotP (the traumatic event that triggered it being the entire graveyard scene). I can definately see such an event triggering anger, especially in a young adult, though it might trigger a different reaction in someone younger or older. The beginning of OotP really represeted the beginning of the most stressful period of Harry's life, and the graveyard scenario would act as a perfect stressor to cause any built up resentments to boil up to the surface.

Ann - Aug 28, 2004 6:37 pm (#965 of 2971)

S. E., I think you are right--Harry certainly has reason to be angry with the world, given what he's had to live through so far, especially since his fourth year (and I think it began not with the graveyard scene, but with the scorn he had to face when he unwillingly became the fourth champion). But I thought the line about his anger "rising like a snake from the grass" was way too Voldemort-ish to ignore. So it seems likely that Harry is feeling his own emotions, but also Voldemort's, and can't yet tell the difference.

S.E. Jones - Aug 28, 2004 8:31 pm (#966 of 2971)
Edited Aug 28, 2004 9:40 pm

The shunning the school gave him for being named fourth champion was far from the first time he's experienced it. He even pointed out the similarity between that situation and the one in CoS where the school avoided him because they thought he was the Heir of Slytherin. He's been picked out from the crowd since long before he entered the wizarding world, in both positive and negative ways, and that isn't easy for a child to deal with. I'd argue that these things gave him a predisposition toward the anger and resentment we see later in OotP but the events of the graveyard scene acted as the stressor that caused this predisposition to be expressed. I don't think this will be a permanent state of mind, however. We already see his mind changing, due mainly, I think, to cognitive influences, after Sirius's death. He sees himself differently (as a "marked man", as being seperate from everyone else, as being subject to/of the Prophecy); he's actively thinking about his choices and their consequences ("If he, Harry, had not been stupid enough to fall for Voldemort's trick, if he had not been so convinced that what he had seen in his dream was real, if he had only...."). I think all these things will combine to actively oppose Harry's resentments and diffuse his anger a great deal in the coming book. He will certainly encounter these emotions in the future, but his cognitive responses will be the ultimate deciding factor in his behavior this time around....

Upulwan - Aug 29, 2004 4:00 am (#967 of 2971)

Ann, I too did a double-take on that line from OoP about Harry's anger rising like a snake, because it did sound Voldy-ish, but for the large part, I think much of Harry's anger was his own.

And I agree, S.E Jones: as devastated as I was about what happened, I was feeling really hopeful by the end of OoP, because while still struggling with grief and shock, Harry seemed very steady in his thinking. But the very best thing was that he didn't seem brittle or bitter about what happened: sure he's very very miserable, but bitterness is the soul-destroyer, and Harry didn't seem bitter.

About withdrawal, when I mentioned the word in one of my earlier posts, I didn't quite mean that Harry will distance himself from his friends (which is the direction in which the discussion seems to have veered off). I think what I meant was that he'll be quieter within himself, more thoughtful perhaps, sort of in a think-before-you-jump mode, rather than cutting himself off from his friends. One reason why I think this is that, again, as much as he's devastated, Harry understands what he's up against and knows better than to isolate himself from his much-needed support system. The final few lines of the book highlighted this for me: Harry felt an upsurge of emotion in seeing 'everyone ranged there on his side'. This matters to him, and I don't think he'll do anything to jeopardize that.

I'm no psychologist, and I'm basing my view largely on the feeling that in literary terms, the mood of the last chapter, however mournful, is a hopeful one. I've heard it said that withdrawal (as in withdrawal from close relationships) is a possible aftermath of a loss like Harry's but I guess it varies with what kind of person you are? Any psychologists here? Withdrawal may be the case for a person with less resilience, and Harry's quite a strong and springy person, and given what he's got to face, I feel that he'll pick himself up rather quickly.

T Brightwater - Aug 29, 2004 7:26 am (#968 of 2971)

Terrific post, Upulwan! Ten points for your House! This line in particular struck me:

sure he's very very miserable, but bitterness is the soul-destroyer, and Harry didn't seem bitter.

You've got that right - we can see what it's done to Snape, for example.

I think you're right that Harry has learned his lesson about trying to distance himself from people. He went through a little of that after Sirius's death, but I think that's just part of his grieving. And yes, I felt hopeful at the end of OotP too.

Speaking of Harry's support group, it's amazing how many different races are included. He's got a half-giant, at least two ghosts, a house-elf, a werewolf, and a centaur all firmly on his side, and a part-veela who thinks well of him, too. Maybe in the next book he'll find a goblin friend. :-)

Magical Llama - Aug 29, 2004 6:42 pm (#969 of 2971)

I wonder if Harry will have access to the forbidden section in his sixth year to study advance defence against the dark arts.

The giant squid - Aug 29, 2004 11:47 pm (#970 of 2971)

I hope so, Magical Llama...so far the only time we saw the Forbidden Section was in CoS. They've got to be able to use it for real sometime. If the students never get access, why have the section there in the first place?

--Mike

Upulwan - Aug 30, 2004 12:47 am (#971 of 2971)

Thanks, TBrightwater, if I was the right shade of skin, you might've seen me blush Smile

As for Harry's support group, don't forget one very intrepid mudblood too!

Time Traveler - Aug 30, 2004 2:14 am (#972 of 2971)

Oh, if you say so, Upulwan, there are lots purebloods and a squib, too! :-)

Upulwan - Aug 30, 2004 2:46 am (#973 of 2971)

Sure, let's go all the way, shall we Smile

T Brightwater - Aug 31, 2004 7:55 am (#974 of 2971)

Maybe Sibyll's right and Harry will eventually be Minister of Magic - not right out of school, obviously, but he's a natural leader, gets along well with all sorts of people, and doesn't assume that rich and respectable purebloods can't possibly do anything wrong.

Ann - Aug 31, 2004 10:55 am (#975 of 2971)

T Brightwater: "Maybe Sibyll's right and Harry will eventually be Minister of Magic...[he] doesn't assume that rich and respectable purebloods can't possibly do anything wrong."

On the contrary, in wizard politics, as in our own, assuming that "rich and respectable purebloods can't possibly do anything wrong" seems to be a requirement for success.

Paulus Maximus - Aug 31, 2004 10:58 am (#976 of 2971)

I think that illusion has been shattered by Malfoy's capture and imprisonment in Azkaban.

Wait a minute... it was shattered when Crouch Jr went to Azkaban...

Ann - Aug 31, 2004 11:02 am (#977 of 2971)

And Rookwood, and....

Upulwan - Aug 31, 2004 4:32 pm (#978 of 2971)

And Ludo Bagman, even though inadvertently as it seems?

T Brightwater - Sep 1, 2004 5:59 am (#979 of 2971)

Maybe I should rephrase my statement. I think Harry would be a terrific MoM. Whether he's "electable" is another story. At least he has name recognition!

Chris. - Sep 1, 2004 12:43 pm (#980 of 2971)

That's what I'm worried about. If Harry has the chance to be elected for MoM, would people vote for him because of the name, or because of the person?

schoff - Sep 1, 2004 1:09 pm (#981 of 2971)

Would it matter at this point? Harry is no longer only recognizable because of his luck. He's got actual deeds under his belt. He's been forced to make quick and decisive decisions, and he's been in charge of others.

True Love - Sep 1, 2004 5:09 pm (#982 of 2971)

I think the MoM would be a really boring job for Harry. Can't see him at a desk job.

Upulwan - Sep 1, 2004 6:03 pm (#983 of 2971)

Have to agree, True Love. He's quite the action man, although of course the sensitive type Smile

Sir Tornado - Sep 1, 2004 7:12 pm (#984 of 2971)

He can be an Auror and be Minister after retirement.

Paulus Maximus - Sep 1, 2004 7:14 pm (#985 of 2971)

How many people would want an ex-Auror for a Minister?

Granted, Moody is the only ex-Auror we know...

schoff - Sep 1, 2004 10:29 pm (#986 of 2971)
Edited Sep 1, 2004 11:30 pm

How many people would want an ex-Auror for a Minister?

About as many as who wanted an ex-actor to become US President (Reagan).

The One - Sep 2, 2004 12:05 am (#987 of 2971)

How many people would want an ex-Auror for a Minister?

I understand that what the candidates did or did not do in Vietnam is an issue in present American elections.

Bush Sr. was an old warrior (WW II fighter pilot?). The same was J. F. Kennedy. (WW II Patrol boat captain?) Eisenhower (sp?) (WW II General.)

schoff - Sep 2, 2004 8:36 am (#988 of 2971)

Eh. Not quite. Clinton won two terms (stealing a term away from Bush Sr.) and he never served a day. He was also a fairly popular president (liked or not) since he won overwhelmingly both times.

It really depends on the mood of country at the time. Whether they are more focused on domestic issues--where military service really isn't needed, or international issues--where military service might be a huge plus.

Military leaders are usually the most popular choice for civilian leadership though, no matter what's going on in state. I'd be really surprised if the next Minister of Magic didn't have at least some background in fighting Voldemort.

The One - Sep 2, 2004 8:45 am (#989 of 2971)

Eh. Not quite. Clinton won two terms (stealing a term away from Bush Sr.) and he never served a day. He was also a fairly popular president (liked or not) since he won overwhelmingly both times.

That is true. I never claimed that all American presidents are elected due to their former status as war heroes, or even that war heros that are elected are elected mainly because of that, but it is sometimes an issue.

And in the Wizarding world, which is the real subject, Barty Sr. was about to be elected Minister due to his leadership fighting Voldemort, until the hole thing backfired.

Steve Newton - Sep 2, 2004 8:52 am (#990 of 2971)

fairly popular president (liked or not)

Huh?

timrew - Sep 2, 2004 2:23 pm (#991 of 2971)

How many people would want an ex-Auror for a Minister?

About as many as who wanted an ex-actor to become US President (Reagan).

LOL, schoff!

Weeny Owl - Sep 2, 2004 2:28 pm (#992 of 2971)

Ex-Auror or not, assuming Harry lives to a ripe old age, he'll always be known as the one who defeated Voldemort, and that would make him a prime candidate for Minister. He has a long way to go before entering politics, and if I were Harry, I wouldn't want to be in the spotlight any more than I had to.

Of course, if he did become Minister, I doubt if he would be a bad choice since he has befriended house-elves, centaurs, and Muggle-borns, plus the Merpeople seemed to like him.

T Brightwater - Sep 2, 2004 2:30 pm (#993 of 2971)
Edited Sep 2, 2004 3:32 pm

How many people would want an ex-Auror for a Minister?

About as many as who wanted an ex-actor to become US President.

Not to mention an ex-wrestler as governor...there was a recent attempt to get a football coach to run for the US Senate; fortunately that failed! Name recognition is a major factor in elections.

However, even if Harry got the office on the basis of name recognition, (perhaps as a Quidditch player rather than an Auror) he'd be good at it! (unlike, say, the above-mentioned ex-wrestler.) At least he wouldn't have Dolores Umbridge in his cabinet. :-)

True Love - Sep 3, 2004 3:53 am (#994 of 2971)

I can see Harry going on more adventures as an Auror but after all that I think he would just go off somewhere to relax in solitude - maybe write a book about his adventures. Good friends will stay in touch of course but to take up a political post - I doubt it. Leave that to the ex-actors, wrestlers, body-builders, and war-vets. The people who like and crave public attention and who like the power that comes with the post.

EbonyRebel - Sep 4, 2004 10:10 am (#995 of 2971)

can just imagine Harry relaxing in solitude - like Frodo Baggins after his conquest of Sauron. it's very fitting, somehow. personally, though, i don't think that Harry will survive. Himself and Voldemort are too intertwined. i think when one goes, the other will go down with him. sorry for this pessimistic view, but considering all the evidence for the closeness (albeit unwilling closeness) of Harry and V, I think that their ultimate fate will be to go down fighting..together.

Time Traveler - Sep 4, 2004 8:53 pm (#996 of 2971)
Edited Sep 4, 2004 9:56 pm

EbonyRebel, I saw some posts that compared Harry to Frodo. I think it is very interesting, but I think HP and LoR have very different style and content. Anyway, HP books are *originally* intended to be children's books, so I don't see too miserable and tragic endings for our young friends. JKR is definitely a writer who likes great humors even in the most serious and dangerous situations.. IMHO, I'd rather see two of them, Harry and LV will survive together. I don't want Harry to die or to be a murderer. I personally think that Harry will absorb or unite LV anyhow..

True Love, I like your idea about Harry's becoming a writer. Perhaps Rita Skeeter can help him to write.. Very Happy

Your ending reminded me of the ending of the movie, Minority Report. I really want to see that Harry will overcome his all hard trials and his all horrible experiences and hurts so that remain as a good healthy wise warm bright person forever..:-) No, become a better healthier wiser warmer brighter person, haha..(See Dumbledore.) Just my hope.:-)

Edit) Oh, I should write this. I think, the MOM will be good for Hermione. She will manage it very well.:-)

Hermy-own - Sep 5, 2004 7:22 am (#997 of 2971)
Edited Sep 5, 2004 8:22 am

I don't want Harry to die or to be a murderer.

I second that, Time Traveler. It's hard to say which one would be worse but I wouldn't wish either for Harry. I get the feeling JKR is setting us up for something else - something for LV in particular; something worse than death.

Sir Tornado - Sep 5, 2004 9:58 am (#998 of 2971)

Oh, I should write this. I think, the MOM will be good for Hermione. She will manage it very well.:-) -- Time Traveler

There is one glitch. She's a muggle-born. I'm sure that'd count against her. How many Blacks or Women have been US presidents? None.

Ladybug220 - Sep 5, 2004 10:01 am (#999 of 2971)

However, there has been a woman Prime Minister in the UK: Margaret Thatcher. So it stands that there could be a female Minister of (for) Magic.

sorry for the off topic post...

Sir Tornado - Sep 5, 2004 10:29 am (#1000 of 2971)

Yes, but she's still a muggle-born. However, if she marries Harry in the end, she'll have good chances of making MoM. It's all politics.

Yay! 1000th post on Harry's thread.

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Paulus Maximus - Sep 5, 2004 11:06 am (#1001 of 2971)

Except for one thing: if being Muggle-Born counts against Hermione, being a Half-Blood would count against Harry.

TomProffitt - Sep 5, 2004 1:49 pm (#1002 of 2971)

I have noticed that a number of posters, as well as Harry himself, describe Harry killing Lord Voldemort as murder.

I have a great deal of trouble with this definition. Lord Voldemort's crimes are notorious and unquestionably evil. He is a man who kills on a whim and for convenience. He has no respect for life, human or otherwise. Had he the opportunity he would slay Harry in a heartbeat.

I feel that this is a lesson Harry must learn. The distinction between murder and justice.

I don't know how Jo feels about it, but I cannot call the slaying of Lord Voldemort, in whatever form it could possibly take, anything other than justified.

The One - Sep 5, 2004 1:55 pm (#1003 of 2971)
Edited Sep 5, 2004 2:56 pm

Except for one thing: if being Muggle-Born counts against Hermione, being a Half-Blood would count against Harry.

Different wizards have different opinion of this. In the periods that Harry is considered the Boy who lived and a hero, he seems to be held in high esteem by most, but when he is considered a nutcase he is not. There are very many half bloods around, and they does not seem to be looked down to to the same degree as mugle-borns. Draco wanted to make friends with Harry, and only started to hate him when he was turned down.

Paulus Maximus - Sep 5, 2004 4:05 pm (#1004 of 2971)
Edited Sep 5, 2004 5:08 pm

To those who care about heritage (hereafter called 'pureblood fanatics'), purebloods are the best, mudbloods are the worst, and half-bloods are in between.

Pureblood fanatics still look down on half-bloods, though as you say, not as much as they look down on mudbloods.

That's why I say that if Hermione's status as a muggle-born counts against her, Harry's status as a half-blood will count against him. To a lesser degree, but it will still count against him.

Then there will be the pureblood fanatic who considers James Potter a blood traitor for marrying a mudblood, and who considers Harry as bad as a mudblood because of that.

I sincerely hope that there are few such people in the Ministry of Magic, but we don't know.

Czarina II - Sep 5, 2004 6:42 pm (#1005 of 2971)

There have been many female Ministers for Magic, as JKR writes in QTtA and FBaWtFT. I don't think Hermione's gender would count against her. I think her status as a Muggleborn would be a problem because she is not connected to any of the old families and it would be hard for the general population to trust her. Sure, she's smart, but smart does not equal trustworthy. If you want to get into any political body today, it is very wise to have some sort of familial connection if you don't have the best credentials. ("Look, my wife is the granddaughter of a famous senator!") In Ancient Rome, to get into the Senate, one pretty much HAD to belong to one of the old patrician (noble) families. Those who weren't had to prove themselves worthy to both the people AND the Senate. The latter's support obviously was what counted.

Harry is a half-blood, but he is still a Potter (apparently a respectable family). His parents were well-known enough to have been household names when they died. He then defeated Voldemort while still in his cot and nappies. Fast forward ten years, he defeats Voldemort (albeit a vapourous form) again. Three years later, defeats him again, another year, again. He will have to face him at least once more. In the meantime, he saved Hogwarts from the basilisk. These are more than enough credentials for a high government position.

Ann - Sep 5, 2004 8:02 pm (#1006 of 2971)

These are more than enough credentials for a high government position.

You need credentials for a high government position? Could have fooled me! But perhaps, given your name, we are from different parts of the world....

Solitaire - Sep 5, 2004 8:03 pm (#1007 of 2971)

I am in the process of reading through this entire thread. Since it is so long, I only do a bit at a time. I would like to comment on a post by Puja, who says the following: Harry could see Snape's memory because he just backfired Legilimens spell on Snape. From this I came to the conclusion that LV has transferred only those powers to Harry which he had inherited from his ancestors (like Parseltongue and other slytherin traits, and may be other powers about which we don't know yet), and not those which he has himself learned.

First, I do not think we know yet the extent of the powers Voldemort has transferred to Harry. It is very likely that only those inborn traits were transferred ... and there may be even more of them that make an appearance before the story is over.

Second, I think there is a tendency on the part of some readers to assume that any unusual skill or power Harry may possess is his only because Voldemort transferred it to him. To do this is to discount the fact that Harry is a Wizard in his own right--the offspring of two apparently powerful Wizarding parents. Isn't it just possible that legilimency may well be one of his inborn abilities? We already know that he is a natural flier, and he was able to produce a corporeal Patronus--something many wizards could never do--at the age of 13. Moving along ...

In the discussion of Harry's possession by Voldemort in the DoM, we see that Voldemort could not stand being in Harry's body when it was so full of love. But I think there was a second reason, as well.

We see Voldemort taunting Dumbledore ... "If death is nothing, Dumbledore, kill the boy ..."

Then we see Harry's thought response ... Let the pain stop. Let him kill us. ... End it, Dumbledore. ... Death is nothing compared to this ... And I'll see Sirius again ..."

Yes, I do believe Harry's heart flooding with emotion was too much for Voldemort to bear. The love in Harry's body would have been as painful to Voldemort as his occupation of Harry's body was to Harry.

BUT I also believe we saw that when it came right down to the moment, Voldemort learned a very scary truth about Harry: He is not afraid of death. He was willing to die. We saw this in the graveyard, too. I think THAT knowledge might unnerve Voldemort. He can't understand anyone who would welcome death, having fought it and cheated it his entire life.

I think Voldemort has suddenly been hit with the realization that Harry will be a far more formidable foe than he had anticipated. In the graveyard, Harry withstood Voldemort's Cruciatus curse and his Imperius curse ... and he still stood like a man and faced Voldemort.

Now he has suffered his mind to be repeatedly violated by Voldemort, and in the DoM, his body to be possessed by Voldemort as a snake. Harry has suffered pain so horrible and intense that death would have been a welcome release. Voldemort knows he has an enemy who is not afraid to die in battle ... and such an enemy is not as easy to intimidate as a coward.

Just my 2 knuts ...

Solitaire

Ann - Sep 5, 2004 8:12 pm (#1008 of 2971)

Solitaire, I think that is very insightful: Voldemort (like his DEs) constantly disparages Harry, but for some reason, he keeps winning. He can only dismiss it as a fluke for so long, and I think he must be getting a bit worried at this point.

But it is not just that Harry is willing to die to kill Voldemort, or to escape unbearable pain: Harry is actually ready to embrace death because he has so many beloved people (his father, his mother, and now Sirius, as well as Cedric to a lesser extent) beyond the veil.

It just occurs to me that, no matter how miserable the orphanage was, Harry has had a far more miserable school career than Riddle ever did.

Solitaire - Sep 5, 2004 8:38 pm (#1009 of 2971)

I agree, Ann, about why Harry is willing to die. It is all of those things ... but especially his belief that he will be reunited with lost loved ones "beyond the veil."

I also think we are going to see Harry realize and develop more of his powers in book 6. He now knows that his destiny is to either kill or be killed by Voldemort. He must be willing to embrace death in order to fulfill that destiny. If he does nothing but wait, he will eventually die at Voldemort's hand anyway. I don't see him wanting to stand idly by, waiting for the moment, so I figure he will use his time to explore abilities that may not yet have made an appearance.

I think his next HUGE issue will be fear for those who want to join him in the fight. He has already seen Sirius die and Hermione almost die in battle. Before that, his parents died at Voldemort's hand, and he has seen what happened to the Longbottoms.

Truthfully, I believe Harry knows the battle at the DoM was just a warm-up. I think he is going to have to come to terms with his "saving people thing," as Hermione calls it. He is going to have to acknowledge that others have the same right as he has to resist Voldemort's attempt to return to power, and he cannot be responsible for their fates should they perish in the fight. I feel this will be a HUGE issue for him to deal with in book 6, but deal with it he must ... because he is going to need all the help he can get.

Solitaire

Time Traveler - Sep 5, 2004 10:37 pm (#1010 of 2971)

Really good point, Solitaire.:-)

And guys, I think I should post the future MOM matter to the Hermione thread. If you want to talk about this more, please come and join.:-)

EbonyRebel - Sep 6, 2004 3:09 am (#1011 of 2971)

tom proffitt wrote "I feel this is a lesson Harry must learn. The distinction between murder and justice." that's a very interesting point - i never thought about it in relation to voldemort before. i think, however, that Harry has learnt the distinction - he did save Pettigrew's life.

it's ironic, isn't it, the way fate plays out? the boy who conquered Voldemort was a key player in his return. bearing this in mind, i think that Harry or V will die at the hand of the other, but taking DD's words "the consequences of our actions are so complex, so diverse", i think that perhaps Harry will not be directly responsible for the fatal blow, but will play a key part in it. (i do think that Voldemort will die - he doesn't have sufficient emotion to appreciate something worse than death, for example, the dementors don't seem to frighten him - "they are our natural allies". i doubt he even has a soul left after his earlier experiments in his quest for immortality - he doesn't regard those sort of things as important.)

Time Traveler - Sep 6, 2004 4:20 am (#1012 of 2971)
Edited Sep 6, 2004 5:28 am

tom proffitt wrote "I feel this is a lesson Harry must learn. The distinction between murder and justice." that's a very interesting point - i never thought about it in relation to voldemort before. i think, however, that Harry has learnt the distinction - he did save Pettigrew's life.

I'm with you, EbonyRebel. You-deserve-a-death idea seems just as the same as the baddies. You are a Muggle, or Muggle-born, so I have a right to kill you. This is utterly unreasonable, yes, but who has a natural right to kill them as a punishment? This IS a very arguable issue, but I wonder who can sentence someone to death. How bad are they enough to be sentenced? How many people do they kill enough to receive a death penalty? This cannot be a distinctive problem IMO..

Edit) I just hope JKR found out really worse punishment than death for LV..?
Edit) This is a really sensitive issue, so I'll leave this issue from now on.:-) If this was offensive to anyone, just forget this. I just don't want Harry to do such things.:-)

Ann - Sep 6, 2004 5:13 am (#1013 of 2971)

I suspect Harry won't do it intentionally; he will just be defending himself or someone else and something he does will have an unexpected effect, and kill Voldemort.

septentrion - Sep 6, 2004 7:22 am (#1014 of 2971)

Solitaire, your idea of Harry being scary to Voldemort because he isn't afraid of death rang a bell in my memlory : long ago, in philosophy class, we were told a Hegel's idea : the strongest is the one who is ready to die and whom foe is convinced he's ready to die. It's not an exact quote but it's the idea. (note : Hegel was a german philosopher in the 19th century).

The One - Sep 6, 2004 9:45 am (#1015 of 2971)
Edited Sep 6, 2004 10:46 am

I suspect Harry won't do it intentionally; he will just be defending himself or someone else and something he does will have an unexpected effect, and kill Voldemort.

Somehow that feels like cheating. The trick is used in a lot of fiction, that the villain attacks the hero and thus force the hero to kill in self defence. Or that the villain in some other way causes his own death.

In this way the author is allowed to solve the problems by killing the villain, without facing the moral issue of descending to the villain's level.

Solitaire - Sep 6, 2004 9:57 am (#1016 of 2971)

I think Harry already sees the moral dilemma ... he pretty much faced up Dumbledore with it in OotP. It has made him that "marked man." Somehow, though, I do not think too many in the WW would be outraged if he killed Voldemort (although there might be a few).

Sadly, even if he does vanquish Voldemort, there will eventually be another to take his place. Dumbledore defeated Grindelwald. Voldemort arose to take his place. As long as there are ruthless and ambitious Wizards, there will be Voldemorts.

Solitaire

TomProffitt - Sep 6, 2004 10:01 am (#1017 of 2971)

In PS/SS Quirrel was killed ,essentially, by wounds received in combat with Harry.

We are not calling Harry a murderer for killing Quirrel. Harry is not calling himself a murderer for that either.

Is this something that Harry can use as a key in accepting the painful truth of the prophecy?

Violence is a terrible, but sometimes unavoidable, choice. This is a choice forced upon us by those who do not hold life in high regard. It was a good and noble thing to spare Pettigrew his life. Harry believed that this murderer would be sent away to Azkaban when he stayed the hands of his father's friends. It clearly wounded Harry's soul when his act of mercy allowed Lord Voldemort to be reborn.

We know that Albus Dumbledore was trying to subdue Lord Voldemort when they fought, and not to kill him. Albus did not allow him to escape.

I do not submit that Harry should kill if given the opportunity, but I do submit that Harry must be ready to kill if that is his only opportunity.

I hope the distinction is understood.

vball man - Sep 6, 2004 10:03 am (#1018 of 2971)

Sadly, even if he does vanquish Voldemort, there will eventually be another to take his place. Dumbledore defeated Grindelwald. Voldemort arose to take his place. As long as there are ruthless and ambitious Wizards, there will be Voldemorts. -solitaire

I've often wondered if this could be wrong. Remember the two broken prophecies that Harry hears part of:

'… at the solstice will come a new …' said the figure of an old, bearded man.

'… and none will come after…' said the figure of a young woman.

Just a thought.

Solitaire - Sep 6, 2004 10:15 am (#1019 of 2971)
Edited Sep 6, 2004 11:16 am

I posted this idea on the Mirror thread last night, but I think it could work here: With all of the talk about mirrors, is it possible that Harry could use the Mirror of Erised to learn the key to defeating Voldemort?

Obviously, vanquishing Voldemort would have to be the deepest desire of his heart for it to work. I wonder if the Mirror would offer him any help in such a situation?

I would like to see him encounter the Mirror of Erised again, now that he is older and has experienced considerably more and has a larger task ahead of him ... wouldn't you?

Solitaire

Edit: Perhaps the Mirror could offer some key to help him work out the prophecy.

The giant squid - Sep 6, 2004 9:59 pm (#1020 of 2971)

I do not submit that Harry should kill if given the opportunity, but I do submit that Harry must be ready to kill if that is his only opportunity. --TomProffitt

I do get the disticntion, Tom, and I agree. To (over)simplify it: hope for the best, prepare for the worst. None of us want to see Harry become a killer, but if he accepts that either he or LV must die, then logically he has to prepare for the possibility that he may have to take a life. It's not easy, it's not fair, but it's the way it has to be.

--Mike

Solitaire - Sep 6, 2004 10:56 pm (#1021 of 2971)

To go off on a different tangent ... We have all read speculations about how Harry must have a relationship with someone from Slytherin to unite that house with Gryffindor. I don't really want to go there. We have also read about how the various magical groups will have to stand united against Voldemort if they are to have any hope of survival. I think that idea does look interesting.

Hasn't the magical world already begun to unite through Harry? Look at some of those with whom Harry has significant friendships or relationships:

Hermione (Muggle-born) Ron and the rest of the Weasleys (Pure-blood but poor) Sirius (Pure-blood) Remus (werewolf) Dobby (house-elf) Hagrid (half-breed Giant) Neville (Pure-blood)

Harry has also begun to widen his circle of relationships and acquaintances to include some newer friends:

Firenze (Centaur), who came to his rescue once out in the Forest Luna Lovegood (Ravenclaw house), fought with Harry & Co. in the DoM Terry Boot (Ravenclaw house), DA member & defended Harry on the train Ernie, Hannah & Susan (Hufflepuff House), DA and also defended Harry Mrs. Figg (Squib), member of the Order, testified for Harry Grawp (Hagrid's Giant brother who unwittingly helped Harry & Hermione)

It seems that members of many of the rejected groups in the Wizarding World (werewolves, muggle-borns, poor, house-elves, centaurs, giants, squibs) already look to Harry as a friend or are beginning to ally themselves with him. Students who are moving into key positions in their respective houses are also becoming friends with him and each other through the DA.

If this issue has already been discussed, I apologize. I have not read all of the posts on this lengthy thread. I just found this idea interesting.

Solitaire

T Brightwater - Sep 7, 2004 4:53 am (#1022 of 2971)

I mentioned the variety of Harry's friends in passing a while back, but it got lost in the shuffle, so I'm glad you brought it up again and went into more detail.

I wouldn't count part-Veela Fleur Delacour as a close friend, but she does think well of Harry, as does Viktor Krum.

I don't think Harry's going to have a Slytherin girlfriend, but I suspect he'll end up with a Slytherin friend or colleague. I've hypothesized that, as the Founders started out as four and lost one member, perhaps to re-unite the school HRH will add a member. It would take something even bigger than a mountain troll, though! :-) (feeble pun intended.)

Steve Newton - Sep 7, 2004 5:47 am (#1023 of 2971)

As another group of friends who could be helpful I would include the ghosts. Nick was very pleased that Harry attended his death day party and Myrtle is definitely making the moves on him.

I think that the ghosts could be helpful spies and messengers. (I also want to know more about the Wailing Widow of Kent.)

rambkowalczyk - Sep 7, 2004 5:58 am (#1024 of 2971)

Solitaire, doesn't Dumbledore say in book 1 that the Mirror of Erised only shows our deepest desires, not whether they are possible or how to acheive them. The only reason Harry got the stone in the mirror was because of a charm Dumbledore put on the mirror-to give the stone to the person who wanted it not to use it.

Solitaire - Sep 7, 2004 6:00 am (#1025 of 2971)

Brightwater & Steve, good calls on the ghosts and Fleur. I forgot about the Veela thing. Yes, I think she feels friendly to Harry, after he saved her sis. I suppose Poltergeists might be handy, too ... although I am not sure they are any more controllable than trolls.

Also, since Dung appears to like dressing as a hag (according to Sirius), maybe he can bring that group to Harry's camp! LOL However, we still need a few more ... The trolls will be difficult, I guess. Maybe Snape can help out with vampires (I still have not totally let go of my pet idea that Snape may be a vampire. hehe)

Solitaire

Paulus Maximus - Sep 7, 2004 6:35 am (#1026 of 2971)

I suppose Poltergeists might be handy, too ... although I am not sure they are any more controllable than trolls.

Yeah... Peeves has only ever taken an order from the Weasley twins.

On the other hand, the Weasley twins are on Harry's side too...

Maybe we could add another category: inventors or scientists...

LooneyLuna - Sep 7, 2004 7:32 am (#1027 of 2971)

Harry also has the respect of the merpeople (2nd task GoF). Dumbledore seems friendly with them. Harry's developing quite a following. Now all he needs is to befriend a Goblin and we'll have just about everyone covered. Smile

Hermy-own - Sep 7, 2004 9:11 am (#1028 of 2971)
Edited Sep 7, 2004 10:37 am

I'm guessing a Dementor would be out of the question?

Solitaire - Sep 7, 2004 9:27 am (#1029 of 2971)

Yeah, Hermy ... I was trying to think how we could get them into the "Harry Camp," but I have to say I think Voldemort was right when he said, "... they are our natural allies."

And didn't Remus Lupin call them "the foulest things on earth"? I do not have my books with me, so I can't remember who it was.

S.E. Jones - Sep 7, 2004 11:44 am (#1030 of 2971)

T BrightwaterI don't think Harry's going to have a Slytherin girlfriend, but I suspect he'll end up with a Slytherin friend or colleague.

It seems to me that the uniting factor will be each house realizing that their traits are not exclusive to their house, and the DA will be a major player in doing so. We saw how surprised the Ravenclaws were that Hermione, a Gryffindor, could come up with the gold coins that changed to tell the date of a DA meeting. By stating that she was nearly put in Ravenclaw house, she may have allowed some Ravenclaws in the group to view her differently, not as a Gryffindor, but as someone like themselves who just happens to be in a different house.

I also think Harry will continue to be the backbone of the DA. He's already got people from Gryffindor, Hufflepuff, and Ravenclaw looking to him for leadership; it won't be long before Slytherins are included in that group. I think the golden boy of Gryffindor admitting that he was nearly put in Slytherin would be quite a shock to each house, but may also help bridge some of the gap that openned between the two since the founders had their falling out.

Kasse - Sep 7, 2004 5:36 pm (#1031 of 2971)

I think the golden boy of Gryffindor admitting that he was nearly put in Slytherin would be quite a shock to each house, but may also help bridge some of the gap that openned between the two since the founders had their falling out. - S. E. Jones

I doubt that Harry is ready to admit that he was almost put in Slytherin, I think he is still very ashamed of that because of peoples views on Slytherin as a whole.

Steve Newton - Sep 7, 2004 5:44 pm (#1032 of 2971)

Some have predicted that Harry will transfer to Slytherin. If this happens it would seem to set up a power fight for the leadership of the House. Maybe both houses. come to think of it.

Paulus Maximus - Sep 7, 2004 6:47 pm (#1033 of 2971)
Edited Sep 7, 2004 7:47 pm

Some have predicted that Harry will transfer to Slytherin.

Considering that Harry passed up his best opportunity to transfer to Slytherin, I highly doubt that it will happen.

Solitaire - Sep 7, 2004 9:11 pm (#1034 of 2971)

S.E. Jones, I think you are quite correct: Harry admitting that the Sorting Hat wanted to put him into Slytherin might be just what is needed to bring some Slytherins into the mix.

The real question is whether he will have the courage to admit it ... even to his closest friends? Maybe they all need to sit around the Gryffindor fire some night sharing their deepest, darkest Hogwarts secrets ... and see what they learn.

It would be interesting to see what might come out if the three houses currently in the DA began to spill anything unusual that the Hat said to them. They might begin to see that each group needs the others to sort of "fill in the blanks" that they lack. We already see this principle in microcosm in the Trio. Together they are like the "cord of three strands" that is not easily broken ... much stronger than they are separately.

Solitaire

Sir Tornado - Sep 7, 2004 10:21 pm (#1035 of 2971)

I agree with Sarah.

S.E. Jones - Sep 7, 2004 10:24 pm (#1036 of 2971)

I doubt that Harry is ready to admit that he was almost put in Slytherin, I think he is still very ashamed of that because of peoples views on Slytherin as a whole.

To quote JKR: "In book six, the wizarding world is really at war again and he has to master his own feelings to make himself useful." (World Day, March 2004).

I think this is something Harry is going to have to come to grips with, let his resentments go, and step up to the challenge (i.e. opening himself to criticism from his own house in order to unite it with Slytherin)....

schoff - Sep 7, 2004 11:07 pm (#1037 of 2971)

Harry garnered quite a bit of attention while he was being Sorted. I've always wondered if him being put in Gryffindor was a surprise to anyone (Snape/Dumbledore).

If I were Dumbledore, knowing that Voldemort transferred his powers to Harry, I would have assumed Harry would end up in Slytherin just like Riddle. Actually, if I were anyone in the Wizarding World, I think I'd assume that anyone who defeats the Dark Lord would probably be kinda like him. Even Ernie made a comment that "Only a really powerful Dark wizard could have survived a curse like that." (CS 11 US199). I'm surprised more people haven't questioned Harry's placement in Gryffindor, particularly taking into account how the Wizarding World perceived him during OoP.

septentrion - Sep 8, 2004 1:29 am (#1038 of 2971)

but his parents were in Gryffindor so it wasn't a surprise if he was sorted in Gryffindor as well.

Siriusly - Sep 8, 2004 4:15 am (#1039 of 2971)

I think there was quite alot of interest in Harry's sorting, to see which side he would "choose".

TomProffitt - Sep 8, 2004 4:44 am (#1040 of 2971)

Maybe they all need to sit around the Gryffindor fire some night sharing their deepest, darkest Hogwarts secrets ... and see what they learn. --- Solitaire

That's just not a guy kind of thing to do. At least not sober American guys.

It might be useful and helpful, but I just don't see it.

LooneyLuna - Sep 8, 2004 5:32 am (#1041 of 2971)

The sorting hat also said of Harry, "Difficult. Very difficult. Plenty of courage (Gryffindor), I see. Not a bad mind either (Ravenclaw). There's talent, oh my goodness yes (Hufflepuff) and a nice thirst to prove yourself (Slytherin), now that's interesting....So where shall I put you?"

I think Harry could have gone into any of the houses - a natural leader of them all.

Solitaire - Sep 8, 2004 6:27 am (#1042 of 2971)

I agree with you, Looney. I think you have hit it right on the head!

I reread the scene this morning. I noticed that Harry was thinking, "Not Slytherin, not Slytherin," before the Hat even mentioned a house!

Perhaps the Hat was just jerking his chain. "Not Slytherin, eh? Are you sure? ..."

I have begun to think the Sorting Hat is a legilimens. It "reads" a person's qualities and abilities and "sorts" through them, perhaps looking for a pattern in the way the person has lived thus far ... or examining the inner core of values. Maybe it is seeking a quality that needs to be drawn out or nurtured in some way and places the student accordingly. Harry certainly needs to learn to trust and depend on others, doesn't he? Could he have EVER learned that in Slytherin? I wonder ...

It seems to me that one of his biggest "issues" in the books thus far is a tendency to want to act on his own--a natural consequence of the way he has been raised by the Dursleys. It has taken him time to learn to trust Ron and Hermione, although he still has a way to go. Many have brought that out in other places--that if he'd trusted Hermione about Occlumency, he would have realized Voldemort was trying to mislead him about Sirius.

The fact that Harry is a Seeker--not just in quidditch but in life--shows he is on some sort of Quest to find his own history and destiny. Being a Gryffindor has given him a special bond with other Gryffindors--Sirius, Lupin, Hagrid--who knew his parents and can help him in his quest. Sorry to ramble ... does this make sense?

Solitaire

Phoenix song - Sep 8, 2004 8:05 am (#1043 of 2971)

Looney Luna: I really like the way that you've broken down the sorting hat's assessments of Harry. I'd always concentrated more on the Slytherin/Gryffindor qualities and didn't realize that he actually possessed qualities associated with all 4 houses. Maybe the uniting of the houses occurs when Harry realizes that he has the qualities that all of the founders valued best within his own mind.

In accepting that he has pieces of all of the houses within himself, he will accept/unite all of the houses. Does that seem to be too much like psychological mush?

Barbie

Ann - Sep 8, 2004 10:35 am (#1044 of 2971)

Boy, I stop reading for a few days (start of classes) and you guys pile up all sorts of interesting ideas!

I like the idea of blurring the lines between the houses--that seems to me a much more reasonable way to unite them than a 'ship, which is, after all, more personal than general. But I agree that 16 year old guys don't sit around sharing their deepest, darkest secrets. It will probably come up more casually--someone Harry doesn't like making disparaging remarks about anyone in Slytherin House, and perhaps someone in that house that he has come to respect, and he blurts it out. That would make it easier for others to admit their conversations with the Sorting Hat.

To go back (way back) to what I said about Harry killing Voldemort in an accidental way, via the unexpected effect of his actions, I don't mean that he won't intend to kill him, just that the way it works will be a surprise. (The way his defeat of Quirrell was a surprise.) As for killing him in self-defense being a cop-out (as the One suggested), I think it is pretty much a given that it will be self defense. I mean, it seems unlikely that Harry will sneak up behind him and AK him. And, basically, if Voldemort knows Harry's there, it will be self-defense, by definition. I don't think that is a cop-out, since I'm not sure that killing is morally defensible except to defend oneself.

Some have suggested that Harry will decide to spare Voldemort at the last instant because he has truly come to love him (or at least Riddle) and then the love will kill Voldemort. But I find it really hard to believe that even JKR can write this without making it really, really sappy. Not to mention that the lesson doesn't seem quite right for a children's book ("love kills").

haymoni - Sep 8, 2004 12:24 pm (#1045 of 2971)

Hermione admitted that the Hat almost put her in Ravenclaw - maybe Harry will ask her about that.

schoff - Sep 8, 2004 6:59 pm (#1046 of 2971)

Septentrion: but his parents were in Gryffindor so it wasn't a surprise if he was sorted in Gryffindor as well.

The Hat doesn't necessarily put everyone in the same family in the same House. Parvati and Padma are in separate Houses, and they are identical twins. It's possible this happened to Sirius, who may have been the only Gryffindor in a family full of Slytherins.

Just because Harry's parents were Gryffindors does not automatically mean Harry would be a Gryffindor, especially if Harry has inherited Voldemort's Slytherin magic abilities and qualities.

S.E. Jones - Sep 8, 2004 7:06 pm (#1047 of 2971)
Edited Sep 8, 2004 8:06 pm

schoff: especially if Harry has inherited Voldemort's Slytherin magic abilities and qualities

But he's also inherited his parents' magic abilities and qualities. There were some things transferred to Harry when the AK backfired, but I don't see why more of Voldemort would be transferred to Harry than he would inherit from his own parents. I've always assumed that just enough was transferred to Harry to equal the playing ground between him and Voldemort (i.e the Parsletongue ability), but that Harry would still have become a rather powerful wizard (as his parents were both powerful and seem to have been loving and supportive), even if he wouldn't have been quite as powerful as he is now.

Solitaire - Sep 8, 2004 7:27 pm (#1048 of 2971)

Voldemort's abilities were transferred to Harry with the failed curse, but I don't think we should assume that his character qualities were transferred, as well.

Harry probably does have certain inborn abilities and traits that come from his parents, even though his time with them was brief. I've had two friends in my lifetime (one male, one female) who lost parents in early childhood. I can still remember adults who knew their parents saying things like "You have the same green thumb your mom had" ... or "you are just like your dad, always bringing home birds with broken wings or injured rabbits" ... or "You know, you are a peace-maker, just like your mother" ... or "You looked just like your dad walking across the yard just now." They were forever drawing comparisons between the children and the parents they couldn't even remember.

I believe that it is possible Dumbledore's charms and spells might have protected the parts of Harry's parents that lived within him. Think about his Patronus form. It is his father's animagus form. Just because Harry didn't necessarily HAVE to be a Gryffindor doesn't mean he shouldn't have been one.

Solitaire

TwinklingBlueEyes - Sep 8, 2004 7:30 pm (#1049 of 2971)

A very astute observation Soli. He's all of the above, and still, he's "just Harry".

Solitaire - Sep 8, 2004 7:40 pm (#1050 of 2971)

Thanks, Twinkles. S.E. Jones says the following: Harry would still have become a rather powerful wizard (as his parents were both powerful and seem to have been loving and supportive), even if he wouldn't have been quite as powerful as he is now.

I agree and said something similar earlier this week on post #1007: I think there is a tendency on the part of some readers to assume that any unusual skill or power Harry may possess is his only because Voldemort transferred it to him. To do this is to discount the fact that Harry is a Wizard in his own right--the offspring of two apparently powerful Wizarding parents.

Solitaire

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schoff - Sep 8, 2004 7:47 pm (#1051 of 2971)

I think there is a tendency on the part of some readers to assume that any unusual skill or power Harry may possess is his only because Voldemort transferred it to him.

Not true.

S.E. Jones - Sep 8, 2004 7:50 pm (#1052 of 2971)

I don't know. I've definately seen some readers do this and have gotten that feeling from some members on the Forum.

But I'd like to point out Solitaire did say "some readers" not "all readers". So, no need for quibbling.....

StareyedSlytherin - Sep 8, 2004 8:04 pm (#1053 of 2971)

>but his parents were in Gryffindor so it wasn't a surprise if he was sorted in Gryffindor as well.

Remember though that he was almost sorted in Slytherin, and with the connection between him and Voldy I can see why the hat struggled with where to place him.

Also, it kind of came across to me that if he hadn't been informed about Slytherin by his friends, he wouldn't have had enough to go on in making any sort of decision and wouldn't have asked not to be put there. It almost seems to me that if Harry hadn't had any input, the hat would have more likely sorted him into Slytherin in the end. Since the emphasis here is on his own personal choice, the hat has to listen to that and place him where he chooses to be. This is probably the main reason that he is in Gryffindor even though he has the qualities associated with Gryffindor. He's not so different from Voldy except in his choices.

Solitaire - Sep 8, 2004 11:12 pm (#1054 of 2971)
Edited Sep 9, 2004 12:15 am

StareyedSlytherin, I just went back and reread the scene in Madam Malkin's robe shop where Harry met Draco--although he didn't know at the time who he was. Draco was being ... well, Draco! and he asked Harry if he knew what house he would be in yet. He then said, "... I know I'll be in Slytherin, all our family have been--imagine being in Hufflepuff, I think I'd leave, wouldn't you?"

Harry is saved the trouble of a reply when Draco spies Hagrid and makes several rude remarks about him. The narrative says Harry "was liking the boy less and less every second." Then, in addition to what happened in the robe shop, there was the confrontation on the train with Malfoy and his sidekicks.

Even if Hagrid or Ron hadn't said anything, I think Harry's initial encounters with Malfoy--knowing he'd already been sorted into Slytherin--would have been enough to turn him off to that house.

Besides that, I think you have to look at what was happening as Harry sat on the stool. "He gripped the edges of the stool and thought, Not Slytherin, not Slytherin."

The Hat then responded, "Not Slytherin, eh? Are you sure? You could be great, you know, it's all here in your head, and Slytherin will help you on the way to greatness, no doubt about that--no? Well, if you're sure--better be GRYFFINDOR!"

The Hat does not suggest Slytherin first and then change because Harry said no. I think it is possible that people are misinterpreting that scene, saying Harry interfered with the Sorting Hat's process. I disagree. It is just as likely that the Hat would have put him in Gryffindor if Harry hadn't been having that "mental conversation" with it. We will never know, will we?

The truth is, we don't know what the Sorting Hat said when it was sitting on all of those other heads, because we were not privy to those little mental conversations. How many other kids might have had the same conversation regarding different houses? Since the Hat says it's never been wrong yet, I think we must assume Harry was put in the proper house. Do you really think it would intentionally put a student where he truly did not belong?

Solitaire

septentrion - Sep 9, 2004 12:28 am (#1055 of 2971)

Thanks Solitaire for having pointed out to us how things happened during Harry's sorting. I haven't noticed when reading that the sorting hat only answered to Harry's request about not being put into Slytherin. But on the other hand, the sorting hat confirmed Harry could have been put in Slytherin in DD's office in CoS.

The One - Sep 9, 2004 1:39 am (#1056 of 2971)

The truth is, we don't know what the Sorting Hat said when it was sitting on all of those other heads, because we were not privy to those little mental conversations.

That is true. We do not know what tha hat was going to do. But DD line about "It is our choices, more than our abilities that define who we really are" does not make much sense if Harry wishes did not have some effect on the process.

EbonyRebel - Sep 9, 2004 2:52 am (#1057 of 2971)
Edited Sep 9, 2004 3:52 am

Going off on a slightly different tangent - JK said that we'll be seeing more of Blaise Zabini in the next book. Could this be the good slytherin we've yet to see? So far, descriptions of the Slytherins have been very black and white (they're all bad!). As I read the sorting in PS/SS, I noticed that practically all the children mentioned at the sorting have a bigger role to play in later books (Terry Boot, Susan Bones...etc). Blaise is the only other Slytherin (besides Malfoy) who is mentioned. It's possible that he was never mentioned before because the Gryffindors were too busy being prejudiced by hating all the Slytherins. Rowling wanted to demonstrate the prejudices in the wizarding world - now, she wants to demonstrate the power of unity and of putting these prejudices aside. I think that Blaise will join the DA and provide this missing link that will allow Harry to unite Hogwarts from within. At least, that's what I'm hoping for!

TomProffitt - Sep 9, 2004 4:08 am (#1058 of 2971)
Edited Sep 9, 2004 5:08 am

But DD line about It is our choices, more than our abilities that define who we really are" does not make much sense if Harry wishes did not have some effect on the process." --- The One

It is a distinction between making the wish and being the kind of person who would make the wish.

Being a parselmouth does not truly bear on Harry's nature. Harry's preferences, voiced or unvoiced, are the "choices" to which Jo refers.

I do not believe that the Sorting Hat needs to play "Twenty Questions" with the students to learn what their choices would be. Jo and Harry have merely been kind enough to show us such a choice.

S.E. Jones - Sep 9, 2004 4:50 am (#1059 of 2971)
Edited Sep 9, 2004 5:51 am

You could be great, you know, it's all here in your head, and Slytherin will help you on the way to greatness, no doubt about that--no?

As I said before, I think the Hat was asking him a question to help determine his personality. If he were an ambitious Slytherin, he would have taken the bait ("Slytherin will help you on the way to greatness"), but instead he resolutely stood his ground ("Not Slytherin.") which is more a Gryffindor trait, as is chivalry which sort of excludes, or at least downplays, personal ambition.

The One - Sep 9, 2004 4:55 am (#1060 of 2971)

I do not believe that the Sorting Hat needs to play "Twenty Questions" with the students to learn what their choices would be.

I may read you wrong, but I feel that you are saying "What choices you make depends on who you are." DD said "Who you are depend on what choices you make."

Those are not quite the same, and both are true to some extent, but I feel that JKR want to emphasis the last one.

rambkowalczyk - Sep 9, 2004 5:05 am (#1061 of 2971)

Even if Harry hadn't met Draco before, I think it's possible the Sorting Hat still would have put him Gryffindor but would have challenged him in a different way. Harry hated Draco because he reminded him too much of Dudley and Harry wanted an environment where bullying wasn't the status quo.

The Sorting Hat probably would have given Harry a choice between seeking revenge on Dudley or being in the same house with his new friend Ron. There are holes here like how would the Sorting Hat know where Ron would be, but I hope you get the general point.

TomProffitt - Sep 9, 2004 5:11 am (#1062 of 2971)
Edited Sep 9, 2004 6:13 am

I may read you wrong, but I feel that you are saying What choices you make depends on who you are." DD said "Who you are depend on what choices you make." --- The One

I'm making a distinction between superficial traits and character or personality traits.

Harry is half-blood, dark haired, short, parselmouth, eye glass wearing, male, and quite a good broom flier. These are superficial traits which I see as having no bearing on the Sorting Hat's placement.

Harry also has a "saving people thing," a "thirst to prove himself," is loyal, just, kind, and more or less law abiding. These are character traits and are much more indicative as to where he belongs.

Overall, I think the Sorting Hat can see well enough into a person to recognize these character traits with in the students. I tend to agree with Solitaire that the Hat was pulling Harry's chain, but I will concede the possibility that the Hat was seeking clarification between two strong character traits.

I will however stick to my guns in professing that I do not believe that in most cases it is strictly necessary for the students to make actual choices. I think the Hat can see their character well enough to make reasonable deductions about their character to foresee their potential choices.

It's more about the character behind the choices than it is the choices themselves.

EDIT: Jo, through Dumbledore, has stated a simple axiom. I am attempting to further define the axiom, not contradict it.

Madame Kulich - Sep 9, 2004 9:58 am (#1063 of 2971)

I don't know if this has been covered before, but I was just rereading GOF and I noticed something that may be a clue of things to come. When Harry was doing the task with the Horntail, it said that the Horntail swayed "like a snake before its charmer." I thought this may be foreshawdowing that later Harry will discover he can control or instruct dragons to do as he wished, like snakes through his parseltongue. Also, later in the task, the Horntail wouldn't get up from her eggs until Harry said, "Come on, come and get me. Up you get now." I didn't put much into those incidents the first 1,000 times I read the book, but now I think there is a clue in there. What does everyone think about it? Do you think dragons will come to the aid of the Order through Harry's guidance and instruction? Thanks for your time.

StareyedSlytherin - Sep 9, 2004 10:18 am (#1064 of 2971)

I'm not sure how they would with him being at school far away from any. There may be a clue there though ^_^

S.E. Jones - Sep 9, 2004 11:17 am (#1065 of 2971)

I will however stick to my guns in professing that I do not believe that in most cases it is strictly necessary for the students to make actual choices. I think the Hat can see their character well enough to make reasonable deductions about their character to foresee their potential choices.

Agreed. I saw the hat questioning him as more it coming down to two possibilites (i.e. strong personality traits) and it was asking as a way of clarifying. This would explain why some students (Harry, Neville) took longer to place (they were harder to read or had certain traits that were hard to choose between) while others (Draco) were easily placed.

Good Evans - Sep 9, 2004 11:29 am (#1066 of 2971)

I agree with solitaire, there is nothing to assume that the hat would ahve chosen Slytherin for harry. The sorting hat is a fantastic character I dont think it is above playing a little with the students if they wish to make their feelings known. I think it was doing just that, playing with him having a bit of fun, after all it cant be much fun being a hat - as Ron sort of points out! It is harry's paranoia and continued misassumption that makes him assume he was about to be placed there. The sorting hat was mulling over everything and what he would ahve decided without harry's interference we will not know unless the sorting hat chooses to let us in on it later. It hasn't as yet.

anyhow - that is my beleif

mike miller - Sep 9, 2004 11:53 am (#1067 of 2971)

Dalus - I too am re-reading GoF and had similar thoughts related to the First task. However, I see it a little differently. I think that before the end, probably more in book 7 than HBP, Harry will get inside Voldemort's head.

Voldemort does not think clearly when it comes to Harry. He overlooks critical details, misreads signs, let's face it Voldemort is obsessed with killing Harry. Harry may be able to exploit this weakness. Hary could get inside Voldemort's mind and either force him to experience love or to plant incorrect information that will open Harry's true opportunity to defeat Voldemort.

Ann - Sep 9, 2004 2:53 pm (#1068 of 2971)

The One responding to Tom Proffitt: I may read you wrong, but I feel that you are saying "What choices you make depends on who you are." DD said "Who you are depend on what choices you make."

I think you guys are both right: your choices make you what you are, and what you are determines your choices. It is a circular process, and feeds itself, so that most people grow more and more like themselves as they get older. This is what Aristotle meant when he said that virtue (and vice) is a habit--the habit of making virtuous choices makes a person virtuous, and virtuous people habitually make virtuous choices.

Upulwan - Sep 10, 2004 4:34 am (#1069 of 2971)

Makes sense. It's interesting that you throw 'habit' into the equation, because to my mind it says that virtue isn't automatic, that one isn't born with an inner well of goodness, but that being virtuous requires actively choosing between options.

Time Traveler - Sep 10, 2004 4:38 am (#1070 of 2971)
Edited Sep 10, 2004 5:45 am

About the Sorting system, I'm also very curious about how it works exactly.:-) Apparently, Hermione's talent at magic surprised Ravenclaws. And the same thing will happen when Harry confesses his own sorting experience. However, I'm wondering... they already know there are some people who is particulary difficult for Sorting, and some of them know they could be in another houses theirselves. So why do they think that they are utterly different from others? Thinking a few minutes, they will find some students in other houses sharing their own talents and abilities..

Another questoin. There are holes here like how would the Sorting Hat know where Ron would be, but I hope you get the general point. --- rambkowalczyk

Really annoying point, it is. People assume there are almost the same number of students in each houses every year. How is this? Do the genes of the Wizard folk control on each wizards' ability or something? Well, this Sorting thing is only for Hogwarts, so this sounds nonsense. Then, the Sorting Hat probably divides students into 4 equal parts.. If so, are the last students divided into any house with any room? (Zabini might have had Gryffindor or other house talent, but there was no room for him in other houses?)
I'm joking, but this seems very marvelous, huh? :-)

Edit) I know the last questoin about the Sorting Hat is rather for the Sorting Hat thread, but I just wanted to mention it here..(Actually, I wanted to joke about Harry's misfortune to slip from the Slytherin, but there WAS a room for Slytherin, so..:-( )

Paulus Maximus - Sep 10, 2004 6:54 am (#1071 of 2971)
Edited Sep 10, 2004 8:00 am

Hermione's talent at magic surprised Ravenclaws. And the same thing will happen when Harry confesses his own sorting experience.

Well, everyone already knows that Harry is a Parselmouth, and you can be sure that that surprised the Slytherins...

A Parselmouth in Gryffindor? Unheard of!

LooneyLuna - Sep 10, 2004 7:13 am (#1072 of 2971)

I'm sure that Luna's bravery (she was the only non-Gryffindor at the DOM fight) surprised Harry and Co. How different would Harry's world have been if Luna had been sorted into Gryffindor and Hermione into Ravenclaw (I do realize they are in different years).

It will be interesting in Harry befriends some Slytherins or that some Slytherins join the DA.

Solitaire - Sep 10, 2004 10:20 am (#1073 of 2971)

I believe the insistence of Neville, Ginny and Luna that they were going probably shocked the heck out of the Trio (who are used to doing brave but hairbrained things). Remember the "looks" Harry and Ron exchanged (no books, so doing this by memory) when he finally gave in. Harry knew Ron was thinking the same thing he was--that if he could have chosen any three from the DA to accompany himself, Ron, and Hermione to save Sirius, it sure wouldn't have been Neville, Luna, and Ginny.

But Luna acquitted herself as well as any of the kids, and she was pretty cool under pressure, too. I think Harry has begun to see her differently. She is brave, and she also does not wallow in self-pity. She has lost a mother she loved very much, and kids obviously pick on her terribly. But she just goes along and does what she needs to do, trusting that things will "right themselves" in the end.

And of all people to still be standing with Harry after the others had been taken out with injuries--who'd have guessed it would be Neville! Granted, he couldn't throw any hexes or spells due to his inability to speak the words properly. But he was there WITH Harry, and that says a lot about his fortitude.

It was good for Harry to see that others can step up to the plate and be brave and daring, too, when the need arises. His little "inner dialog" upon finding out that Ron was to be a prefect instead of him shows us that he needed this realization.

Perhaps these realizations will bring Harry to a place where he will be able to accept a Slytherin ally, should one appear.

Solitaire

caro - Sep 10, 2004 10:23 am (#1074 of 2971)

I think that Harry could have gone into any of the four houses, but he went to Gryffindor because he's brave more than anything else. I believe the Sorting Hat places an individual based on the quality they have more of. Hermione, for example, is smart(Ravenclaw), loyal (Hufflepuff) and disobeys the rules (Slytherin)but she's also VERY brave. Harry also asked the sorting hat not to place him in Slytherin, which makes him different from Voldermort.

schoff - Sep 10, 2004 2:06 pm (#1075 of 2971)
Edited Sep 10, 2004 3:09 pm

I think it is possible that people are misinterpreting that scene, saying Harry interfered with the Sorting Hat's process.

Just because Harry brings it up first does not mean the Hat was not already contemplating it. It even makes a comment on Harry's Slytherin qualities before Harry even mentions that he doesn't want to be in Slytherin: "--and a nice thirst to prove yourself, now that's interesting." (P/SS 7 US121)

Harry may very well have picked up on the Hat's comments and thought the Hat might place him in Slytherin. His asking not to be placed there probably influenced the Hat in its decision, although how it influenced the Hat is still a subject for debate.

Solitaire - Sep 11, 2004 1:05 am (#1076 of 2971)
Edited Sep 11, 2004 2:11 am

The Hat says it's never been wrong yet. Maybe Harry is a first for the Hat then?

Actually, when the Hat is talking and says, "But where to put you ...," it is possible Harry is afraid it might say Slytherin. I believe he has already figured out from the little he has seen of Malfoy--in the robe shop and on the train--and his cronies that Slytherin doesn't sound like a place he would want to be.

Who can blame him, really? Perhaps he figures it would be nice--just for once in his life--to have his "home" be a place he can relax with people who seem to like him rather than having to worry about a skinny, Wizard-version of Dudley (Malfoy) and his buddies picking on him.

Solitaire

Phoenix song - Sep 11, 2004 7:29 am (#1077 of 2971)

I think that it's important to bring up the Harry brought up the name Slytherin first, NOT the hat. Everyone assumes that the first choice was Slytherin, and the second was Gryffindor because Harry insisted "not Slytherin". Actually, the hat mentioned qualities that are predominant of all four houses.
# "Plenty of courage, I see." (Gryffindor)
# "Not a bad mind either." (Ravenclaw)
# "There's talent, oh my goodness, yes-" (Slytherin)
# "and a nice thirst to prove yourself," (Hufflepuff)
then..."now that's interesting..."(Interesting because Harry has the qualities of ALL FOUR houses, NOT because he was leaning more towards Slytherin!) {SS, Ch. 7, pg. 121, U.S. Ed.}

I think that everybody assumes that the "thirst to prove yourself" places Harry more firmly in the Slytherin category. I think that Slytherins are generally so arrogant that they don't feel compelled to prove themselves. It is the underdogs that want to prove their worth. I think that what we've heard about Hufflepuff let us know that they are a house that feels undervalued. I think that they would more likely want to prove themselves. Without the naked ambition of the Slytherins they strive to prove themselves by the quality of their character. These are people who quietly prove their worth by being hard workers, loyal friends, and decent people. Just because they don't shout to the others that they NEED to be considered important doesn't mean that they lack the thirst to prove their worth.

Hagrid tells Harry that everybody considers Hufflepuff to be a bunch of "duffers" but that he doesn't agree. The Hufflepuffs don't push their way ahead and are often left without glory. I think that it doesn't mean that they aren't talented enough for glory, but that their basic sense of goodness keeps them from "stealing" the glory. I think that this is why they took it so hard when Harry took some of the attention away from Cedric in the GoF.

I know that this is a long post. I wanted to get across that I think that it is often overlooked that Harry possessed qualities of all four houses, and not just the two. I also wanted to explain why I thought that the "thirst to prove" himself was a Hufflepuff quality and not a Slytherin quality. Feel free to disagree with me, of course.

Barbie

KWeldon - Sep 11, 2004 8:46 am (#1078 of 2971)

Barbie,

Very nice points, and well-spoken. I've often felt sorry for Hufflepuff, because they are so overlooked. And, of course our hero has so many great qualities, representing ALL four houses! Hopefully he will utilize those traits prudently to unite folks in a fight against Big V.

KWeldon

Weeny Owl - Sep 11, 2004 8:47 am (#1079 of 2971)

Do you think dragons will come to the aid of the Order through Harry's guidance and instruction? Thanks for your time.

Voldemort has creatures on his side, so I don't see why the Order can't have creatures on their side.

Between Harry, Ron (he helped Hagrid take care of Norbert), Hagrid, and Charlie, there seem to be plenty of people associated with the Order who are known by the dragons.

I'm not sure if I believe Harry can speak to them and have them follow his orders, but I am not completely discounting it.

I do think that dragons will have some bearing on events somehow, but how is anyone's guess.

As for the sorting process and Harry's placement, I'm sure the Sorting Hat can read enough to know which house would best suit the students' personalities, but since choice is a theme for JKR, I can see choices influencing the final decision. Basically, I agree with both sides because I can see it either way. How's that for a wishy-washy opinion?

Solitaire - Sep 11, 2004 4:00 pm (#1080 of 2971)

Nice post, Barbie. I agree with your assessment about Hufflepuff and "the thirst to prove yourself." Cedric was obviously talented, and now Ernie MacMillan seems to be very concerned about doing well. I think it's just the name that sounds a bit cutesy, and they can't help that.

As for Slytherins being talented, do we really know that they are more talented than kids put into other houses, based on those we have seen thus far? Draco seems to be about the same caliber of student as Ron and Harry, but even he can't outshine Hermione--according to his father. Based on Draco's jibes here and there in the stories, I don't get the idea that either Goyle or Crabbe are especially bright or talented, and we don't really know about the girls. Marcus Flint required 8 years to graduate, so I am assuming he wasn't exactly a beacon of brilliance. None of them seem to be gifted on the level of a Snape or a Riddle.

It seems to me that the "naked ambition" you mention is what really sets the Slytherins apart as a house. And we do not know yet if that same level of ambition even exists in this group of Slytherins, other than Draco. We simply haven't seen enough OF the Slytherin kids in any meaningful way to have a fix on their talents and abilities.

Solitaire

haymoni - Sep 11, 2004 6:50 pm (#1081 of 2971)

I think "talent" refers to Hufflepuff - Helga wanted to teach anyone who had magical talent.

The "thirst" is Slytherin.

Upulwan - Sep 11, 2004 9:38 pm (#1082 of 2971)

Lovely post, Barbie. And the Hufflepuffs will simply adore you too:) that was a great look into the most overlooked house.

Isn't it curious though? The house that values hard-work the most is the one most overlooked, and even considered to contain those who haven't enough talent to belong to the other houses. Almost as if it's those who are untalented who need to actually work hard to compensate for the lack of talent. Curious, because we know from Harry's trials and LV's life that even with talent, choosing the right course is hard-work. In other words, choice, which is probably the strongest message in the books, perhaps has nothing to do with talent but everything to do with hard-work. So the most overlooked house may embody the most emphasized theme in the books. Do I make sense? Do you think it's another one of JKR's ever so subtle nudges?

Ann - Sep 12, 2004 10:59 am (#1083 of 2971)
Edited Sep 12, 2004 12:22 pm

About the Hufflepuff house, the Red Hen site has an essay on Hufflepuff and the other three houses that I found quite interesting, though I'm not sure I entirely agree with it. His/her take is that Hufflepuff's main characteristic is loyalty to the group and the group's success. It is painted as the opposite of Ravenclaw, which is seen as a haven for individualists and loners.

The link is [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I find that it takes aeons to load--I'm not sure why, though hitting refresh from time to time seems to help. (Maybe it's just an illusion.)

Actually, though I usually agree with you Upulwan, I don't think that hard work is the principal requirement for making the right choices. Courage has a lot more to do with it--not physical courage, obviously, but the sort of courage Harry showed in confronting Umbridge and in giving the post-Voldemort interview to Rita Skeeter; and the sort of courage that Neville showed, and that DD made so much of in SS, in defying even your own friends to do what you think is right.

I do think, from the "uniting the houses" theme introduced at the beginning of OotP, that Harry's world will increasingly include people from other houses, including Slytherin. So we may get a more closely resolved picture of what the Sorting Hat's criteria really are in the last two books.

constant vigilance - Sep 12, 2004 12:04 pm (#1084 of 2971)
Edited Sep 12, 2004 1:05 pm

I mostly agree with Barbie's analysis in post 1077, but I would like to comment on one section: "I think that Slytherins are generally so arrogant that they don't feel compelled to prove themselves. It is the underdogs that want to prove their worth."

Yes, underdogs often want to prove their worth, but often those who are underdogs are overlooked simply because they choose not to put themselves into the spotlight. Take Ginny, for example. She is the youngest of 7 children, the only girl in the family, and she comes after a series of very successful, very prominent kids. She could have spent her childhood, and her time at Hogwarts, running around trying to get everyone's attention by being a loud, "big" personality. Instead, she develops her skills quietly and unnoticed, and when the opportunity comes for her to shine she astounds everybody. In many ways Ginny is an underdog, but she does not seek to prove herself; she simply does what she does and the proof exposes itself because it's there to be exposed.

Now take Draco, who is very Slytherin and very, very arrogant. Draco is forever trying to make others look worse so that he may look better. Rather than trying to prove himself, he tries to pull other people down to his level and below.

Anyway, this is getting long and rambley and I think I may have lost my point somewhere along the way, but I have one more thing to say. I don't think Harry is unique in having been suitable to any of the houses. Though it is common for individuals to have particular strengths, the qualities that define each house tend to exist in every individual to some extent. I think it is more common for a person to have traits that could place them in at least 2 of the houses than for a person to fit solely and absolutely into one house. I can see ways for Harry's Slytherin traits to be applied to Gryffindor as well (except Parseltongue), and I think Harry's heart is what places him in Gryffindor far more than Slytherin.

The One - Sep 12, 2004 12:13 pm (#1085 of 2971)

I agree with what you say about Ginny.

Just take Hermione:

Hardworking and loyal: huffelpuff Brave: Gryffindor Intelligent and clever: Rawenclaw. Bluffing Lockheart, stealing stuff from Snape, blackmailing Rita, jinx on DA paper disfiguring Marietta: Slytherin.

I would expect Cedric to be brave enough to be in Gryffindor. The same goes for Luna.

I bet there are many other examples.

PS: What is the HTML code for new_line?

schoff - Sep 12, 2004 12:28 pm (#1086 of 2971)

< br >

The One - Sep 12, 2004 12:44 pm (#1087 of 2971)

Many
thanks!!
Seems
to
work!

Phoenix song - Sep 12, 2004 4:28 pm (#1088 of 2971)
Edited Sep 12, 2004 5:30 pm

constant vigilance:

Without the naked ambition of the Slytherins they strive to prove themselves by the quality of their character. These are people who quietly prove their worth by being hard workers, loyal friends, and decent people. Just because they don't shout to the others that they NEED to be considered important doesn't mean that they lack the thirst to prove their worth.-Phoenix Song

Instead, she develops her skills quietly and unnoticed, and when the opportunity comes for her to shine she astounds everybody. In many ways Ginny is an underdog, but she does not seek to prove herself; she simply does what she does and the proof exposes itself because it's there to be exposed.-constant vigilance

I think what we're saying is basically the same thing. There are people who quietly go about their lives doing the right things. They work hard, learn, and wait for their time in the sun. They don't shout aloud their need for acknowledgment. The only difference that I see in our beliefs is that I think that just because these hard working, loyal, and quiet people do not demand their fair share of approval does not mean that they do not "thirst" for it all the same.

Just because the Hufflepuffs don't demand deferential treatment from the other houses (as the Slytherins do) doesn't mean that they don't want and need to feel valued and worthy by others. They're just doing the longing in their hearts and not with their mouths. Many of them are probably working with the belief that if you work hard enough long enough that you will be noticed and rewarded. Unfortunately, this rarely happens. We often don't notice the quiet, undemanding workers in our lives until they've gotten tired of waiting for praise and recognition and leave quite unexpectedly.

I think that this quality that the sorting hat pointed out applies to Harry just as much as any other quality mentioned. I further think that it applies to Hufflepuff as I've stated previously. Harry does feel a need to prove that he is worth the sacrifice that his parents made for him to live. He feels the need to prove that he is worth the fame that has been thrust upon him. He feels the need to prove that he is worth the magical life that he finds himself in after so many years locked in a cupboard under the stairs.

I'm not sure if I was clear enough in my statement that I felt that the Slytherins were too arrogant to need to prove their worth to others. Since they feel that they are the only wizards worth knowing, why would they want to prove how great they are to others? They consider the other students to be nuisances to put up with until there is a completely pure-blood Hogwart's. It would be like a person trying to convince a bug that he was great. Nobody would do that because who cares what a bug thinks about you! I hope that I've made some sense and cleared up any confusion.

Sorry for the long post, but I wanted to make sure that I was being clear!

Barbie

TwinklingBlueEyes - Sep 12, 2004 5:26 pm (#1089 of 2971)

Made sense to me, but of course, I have a new tailor now, he does some of the funniest things with sleeves.

I think you are "spot on", to borrow a phrase from our British friends.

Harry is learning, and he strives hard to do the "right" thing, inspite of his upbringing and the strange circumstances he has found himself in. I wonder how many of us would have "taken it in stride" as Harry has done, esp. at his age?

Solitaire - Sep 12, 2004 6:37 pm (#1090 of 2971)
Edited Sep 12, 2004 7:38 pm

I understand what you mean, Phoenix Song ... What's more, I think you sum it up nicely: Since they feel that they are the only wizards worth knowing, why would they want to prove how great they are to others? They consider the other students to be nuisances to put up with until there is a completely pure-blood Hogwarts.

Interestingly, the Slytherin kids we have seen thus far haven't been singled out for much ... except the Inquisitorial Squad. I wouldn't say they have exactly DONE anything to warrant being treated deferentially, would you?

Students from all three of the other houses, however, have been busy distinguishing themselves throughout the series:

--The Trio manages to save the Sorcerer's Stone.
--Harry and Ron go into the forest and learn the secret of Hagrid's innocence in the prior opening of the Chamber of Secrets.
--Hermione figures out what is attacking the students and how it is getting around.
--Harry and Ron find and Harry opens the Chamber.
--Harry, aided by Fawkes, kills the Basilisk and Riddle's "diary self" and saves Ginny.
--Harry produces the Patronus in PoA that saves all of them (Sirius, Ron, Hermione, etc.) from the Dementors.
--Harry and Hermione save Buckbeak and free Sirius.
--Cedric (Hufflepuff) is a skilled and fair Quidditch player. He is also chosen by the Goblet of Fire. Okay, Harry is, too, but it was rigged, so we will never know.
--Harry battles Voldemort and DEs in the graveyard and manages to escape, returning Cedric's body to Hogwarts with him.
--Students from three houses form the DA and begin to prepare themselves for the coming battle in the WW. Hermione demonstrates her skill in several ways here. Neville grows by leaps and bounds. Seamus eventually comes around and joins, as well.
--Fred and George manage to outwit Umbridge and leave Hogwarts in a blaze of glory. (Okay, this one is reaching a bit, but you must admit it will be their badge of distinction for years to come!)
--Our junior "Delta Force, Hogwarts style" head for the DoM to save Sirius. Luna figures out how they will get there in the absence of their brooms.
--Luna (Ravenclaw) demonstrates bravery and skill in the battle at the DoM.
--Ginny, Neville, Ron, Hermione and Harry (Gryffindor) also demonstrate skill and bravery in the battle at the DoM.
--On the train back home, Terry, Ernie, Hannah, Susan, Justin and Anthony (all Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw) successfully defend Harry against an ambush by Draco & Co.
Over and over again, we see members of three of the houses distinguishing themselves--and I don't think any of them are doing it for their own glory. They are always led to do it to help someone. The only ones who seem conspicuously absent are the Slytherin kids. Or am I forgetting something they have done?

Solitaire

TwinklingBlueEyes - Sep 12, 2004 6:49 pm (#1091 of 2971)
Edited Sep 12, 2004 7:54 pm

Cause trouble? Seriously, they have held their own in most everything we have seen them do. And gotten away with more than most us would have ever tried. Ok, we'd try, but for different reasons. Is just like all who are ruled by greed and power, they always seem to come up on the short end of the stick.

Pam

DJ Evans - Sep 12, 2004 6:59 pm (#1092 of 2971)

And do you ever wonder just how much trouble they would cause if it wasn't for Draco? I mean it seems like to me he is behind "most" of the causing trouble routines.

I think Harry would be willing to give most of the Slytherin's a chance. He seems to rather make his own judgments instead of taking anothers word that "NO" Slytherin is good/decent.

Later, Deb

TwinklingBlueEyes - Sep 12, 2004 7:11 pm (#1093 of 2971)
Edited Sep 12, 2004 8:12 pm

I think Harry would be willing to give most of the Slytherin's a chance. He seems to rather make his own judgments instead of taking anothers word that NO" Slytherin is good/decent."
As opposed to Ron's way of thinking? I think you are right. I had just posted on Ron's thread some of my thought's on this.

Phoenix song - Sep 12, 2004 7:13 pm (#1094 of 2971)
Edited Sep 12, 2004 8:19 pm

Solitaire: I couldn't agree with you more. The Slytherins are all set apart from the other houses as if they are an elite group of wizards & witches. Yet they haven't demonstrated any exceptional abilities or accomplishments. Surely if a main quality of Slytherin house were the "thirst to prove" yourself (as others think), then we would see several Slytherin members doing extraordinary things.

I think that the sorting hat was referring to Slytherin when it said "there's talent". I just think that the Slytherins are a talented, yet selfish group. Why should they waste their talent, time or abilities helping others? Why should they waste their time in any pursuit that doesn't benefit themselves personally? We haven't seen much evidence of their talent, but that doesn't mean that it's not there.

I believe that they don't feel the need to prove themselves to be great because they feel that their bloodline is all the proof that they'll ever require.

Barbie

EDIT: I also think that Harry will be willing to give individual Slytherins the chance to prove that they aren't evil. He has been on the bad end of prejudice, and I think that he is sensitive to its effects. He also has the knowledge that he was almost placed in Slytherin. He would want the chance to prove that he was okay if he had been placed there.

Ron will come around to the Slytherins after they are accepted by Harry and Hermione. He has strong feeling towards the ones that he knows, but he isn't so stubborn that he would categorically reject ALL Slytherins.

Solitaire - Sep 12, 2004 7:47 pm (#1095 of 2971)

Again, Barbie ... I have to agree!

Twinkles, of course you are right again! When it comes to causing trouble, those Slytherins are champs! Well, Draco is, anyway. He does seem to be the ringleader, as Deb says. I'm not sure I'd put that in the same class with the accomplishments of the other kids, though.

Deb, have you ever wondered whether the others would really be as obnoxious without Draco around? I've often considered this question. And I have to agree that Harry--though suspicious--would probably be willing to give other Slytherins a chance. I'm not sure about Ron.

Actually, if there were to be a blow-up between Harry and Ron--something others have speculated will happen in Book 6 or 7--I think it could well be over bringing Slytherins--even those who haven't gotten under the Gryffindors' skin--into the DA. Actually, most of the Gryffindors are pretty much left alone by the Slytherins, aren't they?

Our Trio seem to have been the major targets of Draco & Co., and Ron (Weasley is our King) has certainly been as much a victim here as Harry. Hermione has come in for her fair share of harassment, too, what with the Mudblood comments, the growing teeth incident (not helped by Snape's snotty remark), and the bubotuber pus burns (assuming it came from a Slytherin ... not proven yet). Neville and Ginny, by their close relationship to the Trio, also seem to get a fair share of nastiness.

Honestly? I think Ron would balk at trying to mend any fences or establish any positive relationships there. He seems pretty closed off to their having any merits at all. I see Harry and Hermione as more willing. I can even believe that Ginny might be more open to them than Ron. She seems rather Dumbledore-ish when it comes to giving people a fair shake. But I bet she would knock the stink-sap out of them if they pulled anything.

Solitaire

TwinklingBlueEyes - Sep 12, 2004 8:09 pm (#1096 of 2971)

Yeah, size is no guarantee of power, said George. "Look at Ginny." "What d'you mean?" said Harry. "You've never been on the receiving end of one of her Bat-Bogey Hexes, have you?"

S.E. Jones - Sep 12, 2004 9:50 pm (#1097 of 2971)

Phoenix Song: The Slytherins are all set apart from the other houses as if they are an elite group of wizards & witches.

I have to wonder, though, are the Slytherins set apart because they want to be or because no one wants to trust them? That would certainly make the Slytherins, as a whole, rather defensive toward other houses and might explain why we don't hear much from that house's students. I think it would come as a huge shock to any Slytherin if Harry were to welcome one of them into the DA. Then again, shocks aren't always bad....

Upulwan - Sep 13, 2004 1:48 am (#1098 of 2971)

Ann, sorry, I don't think I expressed myself clearly. When I made my comment about Hufflepuff, I didn't mean "hardwork is the principal element in making the right choices". Rather, that making the right choices takes much hard-work, more than most are ready to grant. You can have the brains, the bravery, the talent and the ambition, but without the effort and commitment to mould and steer them in the right direction every minute of the day, you cannot hope to achieve greatness. It is that effort and commitment that I see as hard-work. Which is also the difference between taking the path of least resistance and doing what is difficult but right, as DD says in Gof. Being courageous doesn't come easy: it takes hard-work.

I just feel that we can see the four houses as an analogy for this. While the qualities the other houses embody are often thrust into limelight, Hufflepuff generally sits in the shadows.

And Sarah, that's a great point. I may be drawn and quartered for saying this, (and just to save Sarah from the same fate, I don't think that what I'm about to say necessarily follows from what Sarah meant Smile

) but sometimes I cannot help but feel sorry for the Slytherins. Their reputation always precedes them: they are relegated forever to the Dark Wizard stereotype, and if there is a 'good' Slytherin among them, we're never to know because the other houses are always so prejudiced against the Slytherins. I'm not saying that they are a bunch of misunderstood and misrepresented saints, but that surely, ALL Slytherins can't be that bad?

In a way, the behaviour of other houses towards Slytherin seems to be a slightly askew reflection of Slytherin's own credo and prejudice. Have we any evidence that anyone ever tried to really befriend a Slytherin just to see for themselves how bad the beast is? Okay they are not exactly the friendlies of folk to put it mildly, but doesn't everyone assume they're evil simply by building on existing prejudices?

Better stop now, I hear a suspiciously squishy zooming heading my way...

DJ Evans - Sep 13, 2004 7:15 am (#1099 of 2971)

Solitaire: :Deb, have you ever wondered whether the others would really be as obnoxious without Draco around? I've often considered this question. And I have to agree that Harry--though suspicious--would probably be willing to give other Slytherins a chance. I'm not sure about Ron." (see? Green for Slytherin!!!

And yes, I've often wonder that myself. Draco has the type of personality that is more apt to be the one to "start" the trouble and then stand back and let others carry it out. If he is by himself he is basically harmless. Remember I said basically there, not that he wouldn't have "his" moments, I just see him being more quite without his henchmen behind him.

I don't know what it would take for Ron to trust/like any Slytherin. It is so ingrained in him on how bad the ones he knows that he slots them all into the same category. I'm thinking it would take a situation where a Slytherin saved Ron's life that he might start seeing them in a different like.

Sarah/S.E. Jones: "I have to wonder, though, are the Slytherins set apart because they want to be or because no one wants to trust them? That would certainly make the Slytherins, as a whole, rather defensive toward other houses and might explain why we don't hear much from that house's students. I think it would come as a huge shock to any Slytherin if Harry were to welcome one of them into the DA. Then again, shocks aren't always bad...."

Sarah, I see it as both really. And I agree with the rest that you said there. I'm wondering how the other Slytherin's would react to a Slytherin that did joined the DA? Would they be outcast from the House basically? Oh, I'm pretty sure I know how Draco would react, but I was just wondering on some of the others.

Later, Deb

Ann - Sep 13, 2004 11:00 am (#1100 of 2971)

I'd like to see Slytherins in the DA--the more trained wizards on the right side, the better--but I wonder if any Slytherin would agree to work under Harry's direction? Possibly some of the younger ones, but with the ones his own age, if they wanted to join, I would suspect their intentions a bit (and so would Ron, I'm sure), even if they really didn't intend to subvert the organization.

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Paulus Maximus - Sep 13, 2004 11:34 am (#1101 of 2971)

Well, if Harry gets up to speed on his Potions and can brew a Veritaserum, there will bo no need to suspect the Slytherins who join the DA. Not only would the brewing of the Veritaserum impress Snape, but the use of it would weed out the sneaks.

Weeny Owl - Sep 13, 2004 11:48 am (#1102 of 2971)

Well, if Harry gets up to speed on his Potions and can brew a Veritaserum, there will bo no need to suspect the Slytherins who join the DA. Not only would the brewing of the Veritaserum impress Snape, but the use of it would weed out the sneaks.

It might impress Snape, but since the use of Veritaserum is controlled by strict Ministry guidelines, I doubt if its use would be allowed. Hermione would have a cow over it.

Steve Newton - Sep 13, 2004 11:54 am (#1103 of 2971)

Controlled by strict Ministry guidelines is far different from strict Ministry control. Guidelines means that they have rules and standards. Control would mean access.

Weeny Owl - Sep 13, 2004 12:44 pm (#1104 of 2971)

Yes, but if the DA is going to be a sanctioned Hogwarts club, I doubt if allowing the use of Veritaserum would be something that would happen because if anyone found out, it could get Dumbledore in trouble yet again.

TomProffitt - Sep 13, 2004 1:00 pm (#1105 of 2971)

--but I wonder if any Slytherin would agree to work under Harry's direction? --- Ann

If ambition allows a Slytherin to submit to Lord Voldemort, I don't think working for Harry would be a problem for any of them.

Paulus Maximus - Sep 13, 2004 3:51 pm (#1106 of 2971)

Do you really think that the Ministry authorized Dumbledore to use Veritaserum on Crouch Jr? That Dumbledore didn't breach any Ministry guidelines by doing so? I somehow doubt it.

And, as Snape says, Harry has been crossing lines since his first day at Hogwarts. If the use of Veritaserum on fellow students is a breach of the strict Ministry guidelines... well, that didn't stop Harry in the past...

constant vigilance - Sep 13, 2004 3:54 pm (#1107 of 2971)
Edited Sep 13, 2004 4:56 pm

Sorry to rewind a bunch of posts, but Phoenix Song, I just wanted to let you know that I felt your analysis was very well-articulated and I agree with you (and did all along).

As far as Slytherins and their bad reputation, well, I agree that they are subject to prejudice. However, every time we see a Slytherin talk about what it means to be a Slytherin, he/she lets us know that they are proud of their ambition. It seems to me that they strive to live up to that Slytherin reputation.

The difference between Slytherin and all the other houses is that Slytherins have no qualms about walking all over people to attain their means. It is not just ambition, or the desire to succeed, that separates Slytherins from the other houses. Hufflepuff house was proud of Cedric for being chosen for the Triwizard Tournament, and they shared in his glory vicariously. All of the houses hope to win the House Cup every year, and there is no shortage of competitive strategising at Hogwarts. But Slytherins will bend the rules, they will play dirty, and they will behave unethically, if that is the only way to get them where they need to go.

Here's an example: In GoF, Harry found out about the dragons before he had to face them, and knew that Fleur and Krum were aware of them as well. Since Cedric was the only one who didn't know, Harry tipped him off--something Draco would never have done. Then in the second task, Cedric returned the favour and told Harry how to hear his clue. They each wanted to win the Tournament, but they had the sportsmanship to help each other out because that was most fair. In the third task, they were even--Harry had helped Cedric, and Cedric had helped Harry. By the time they reached the centre of the maze they no longer felt indebted to each other, but even then they each felt the other one should get the Cup. Maybe that was an illustration of those 2 specific people's characters, and not representative of their houses, but I am quite certain that a Slytherin would have never engaged in such chivalrous behaviour.

edited to add: one little afterthought...where does it say that there are strict Ministry guidelines regarding the use of Veritaserum?

Paulus Maximus - Sep 13, 2004 3:59 pm (#1108 of 2971)

When Snape first shows the Veritaserum to Harry, after the second task. "Now, the Ministry has strict guidelines for the use of Veritaserum. But unless you watch your step, you'll find my hand slips right over your evening drink," or something to that effect...

S.E. Jones - Sep 13, 2004 5:42 pm (#1109 of 2971)

but I am quite certain that a Slytherin would have never engaged in such chivalrous behaviour

Do we really know that? What Slytherin have we really met aside from Draco, his "Draco clones" (i.e. Crabbe and Goyle), and Pansy? We've met Mulisant (sp?) but she just seems to be a female version of Crabbe and Goyle.....

constant vigilance - Sep 13, 2004 6:27 pm (#1110 of 2971)

Phineas Nigellus, for one. As well as Tom Riddle, Bellatrix LeStrange, Lucius Malfoy, Severus Snape, Dolores Umbridge [(?) not sure if this one is canon but sure seems that she is one...] Of course we ought not to jump to conclusions but the general consensus within the Wizarding Community seems to be that Slytherins are self-serving and will take any means necessary to achieve their goals. That type of attitude just doesn't lend itself to chivalry, because chivalry requires you to put the needs of others ahead of your own. Still, it would be a pleasure to meet a Slytherin character who defies that definition.

DJ Evans - Sep 13, 2004 6:36 pm (#1111 of 2971)

Maybe we haven't met any of the other Slytherins is because they "are" nice and have more to them than just self-serving etc....? Jo might have wanted to wait a bit, to carry on the theme of Slytherins that we've seen so far? I do think we will meet the good ones in the upcoming books though. Most likely through Harry and the DA's.

Later, Deb

S.E. Jones - Sep 13, 2004 7:43 pm (#1112 of 2971)

I ment any Slytherins currently attending Hogwarts. Usually the troublemakers are the ones who standout the most (i.e. Draco, and even old alumni like Lucius). The nice ones don't do anything that would focus attention on them (considering this story is about a Gryffindor and the people he comes into contact with). There could be nice Slytherin students and alumni out there but we only focus on the bad ones because those are the ones in direct opposition to our hero....

Phoenix song - Sep 13, 2004 8:11 pm (#1113 of 2971)

Sorry to rewind a bunch of posts, but Phoenix Song, I just wanted to let you know that I felt your analysis was very well-articulated and I agree with you (and did all along).-constant vigilance

Gee, thanks! I appreciate that very much!

I am also interested in seeing when JKR will introduce some Slytherins that will "choose" to unite the houses. Surely, this is a major theme in the books, so she must have thought of a way to accomplish this goal? Nearly Headless Nick reminds the trio that unity among the houses is key and that the ghosts all get along regardless of house affinity. I don't think that the scene with the sorting hat's advice and this "reproach" from Nick was placed there without a reason. We all know that JKR doesn't place things in the books without cause.

I think that Harry will be key in getting the other members of DA to accept any Slytherins that come forward. He will have a feeling that he was almost in the same house, and should feel an extra dose of compassion towards them. We know that Hermione will gladly follow along with what would be best for the school (unity), and that Ginny has already established inter-house relationships. I think that Ron will be a "harder sell". He has some built-up animosity towards the Slytherin house, and it will take some convincing from the others for him to relent.

Barbie

StareyedSlytherin - Sep 13, 2004 9:12 pm (#1114 of 2971)

I agree, I think that there will be at least one 'good' Slytherin who will appear by the end. It would just seem too unrealistic and steriotypical for them to all be Draco-clones. Harry and the others might have trouble accepting them at first, but it is only reasonable to assume that there can be 'good' Slytherins just as there are some 'not so good' members of other houses.

Solitaire - Sep 13, 2004 10:22 pm (#1115 of 2971)

I for one would LOVE to see a Slytherin who has not been "soured" by the attitudes of previous Slytherin generations. I think such a student could be the means of helping to bring along the Slytherin kids who do not support Draco & Co.

I had to giggle at whoever called Millicent a female version of Crabbe and Goyle. She does seem to be a bit of a female thug.

DJ: Maybe we haven't met any of the other Slytherins is because they "are" nice and have more to them than just self-serving etc....? Jo might have wanted to wait a bit, to carry on the theme of Slytherins that we've seen so far?

I think that could be likely, DJ. Perhaps JKR is just allowing our anti-Slytherin prejudice to harden sufficiently, so that she can spring a nice surprise on us!

Solitaire

Upulwan - Sep 14, 2004 12:01 am (#1116 of 2971)
Edited Sep 14, 2004 1:02 am

I agree Solitare: she's a master in the very fine art of springing suprises, isn't she?

constant vigilance - Sep 14, 2004 2:38 pm (#1117 of 2971)

Solitaire, I also agree. I don't think all Slytherins are like Draco, and I have never intentionally suggested that I think they are. I was just saying that JKR has depicted Slytherin house in a certain way, and given us no indication otherwise. What makes me question the likelihood of chivalry from a Slytherin is that the way they're depicted suggests that they don't see their self-servitude as a bad thing. Some people think it's wrong to put yourself first, and some people view such an attitude as only natural and right. Slytherins, as we've seen so far, from their own mouths, fit into the second category. Like I've already said, I would LOVE to meet a "good" Slytherin, and I find it nearly impossible to believe there aren't any in the Wizarding World. We just haven't encountered them yet.

vball man - Sep 14, 2004 3:37 pm (#1118 of 2971)

I think that the hat responded not to the overall picture inside Harry's head, but to what Harry said: "Not Slytherin."

It seems to me that if a generally nice person happened to be in a foul mood when sorted, he might end up in Slytherin. He should have been in another house.

Paulus Maximus - Sep 14, 2004 4:10 pm (#1119 of 2971)
Edited Sep 14, 2004 5:12 pm

Well, remember what Harry was doing when he said "not Slytherin". He knew well that Slytherin was the house for the most ambitious of the students, so by choosing "not Slytherin", he was putting aside his ambitions and making himself less qualified for Slytherin anyway...

Of course, for all we know Hermione said "not Ravenclaw", and intelligence is much harder to set aside than ambition...

And a foul mood has nothing to do with it. Someone in a good mood will be just as determined to achieve an end (and thus, will be as eligible for Slytherin) as someone in a bad mood.

vball man - Sep 14, 2004 8:37 pm (#1120 of 2971)

Well, I guess I think of the hat the way I think of a personality test. And they are quite mood dependent.

Czarina II - Sep 15, 2004 4:04 am (#1121 of 2971)

I think it is more dependent on the mood of the Hat! :-)

Solitaire - Sep 15, 2004 6:25 am (#1122 of 2971)
Edited Sep 15, 2004 7:26 am

The Sorting Hat says it has never yet made a mistake. Would you say it is a smart move to determine the lives of people for the next 7 years based on their mood the night they are sorted? With the possible exception of a few Slytherins--who are probably the only ones who KNOW where they are going--most of the kids are probably nervous, frightened, and very worried.

Vball man, I do not think a SMART Sorting Hat would make such a pronouncement about a student based on what that student was feeling at one very stressful moment in time. Would YOU make a judgement about who a person was and what he or she might become in the future--or at least how he/she should spend his/her next 7 years--if you met him or her at such a moment? I certainly hope not.

Hogwarts may be a magical school, but it is still a school, responsible for inspiring and encouraging students to grow and become who they will become. I think the Hat looks inside the students ... looks for qualities, characteristics, abilities, and talents that may be nurtured, expanded, created, etc. I apologize if this seems disjointed. I am on a fast break.

Solitaire

vball man - Sep 15, 2004 9:07 am (#1123 of 2971)
Edited Sep 15, 2004 10:13 am

Vball man, I do not think a SMART Sorting Hat would make such a pronouncement about a student based on what that student was feeling at one very stressful moment in time. Would YOU make a judgement about who a person was and what he or she might become in the future--or at least how he/she should spend his/her next 7 years--if you met him or her at such a moment? I certainly hope not.

hmm. interesting question. What if I made a school and wanted to have different houses based on personality. The way to do this would be to first administer a test. This is a blunt tool that would let me get started on what the personality of the individual is. Then the test would have to be read by a competent counselor, based on conversation with the student. Unfortunately for me, reading the student's mind would not be part of the process.

The hat does claim that he's "never yet been wrong." Maybe this is exaggeration. Maybe its just to rhyme with "tell where you belong." (If my memory of the song serves.) Maybe its true. But how does the hat know that he's never been wrong. Certainly Hermione would have done well in Ravenclaw. If she'd taken that path, we (and the hat) would have no idea what would have happened had she been in Gryffindor. I'm not sure the hat is really able to definitively make that claim.

haymoni - Sep 15, 2004 10:22 am (#1124 of 2971)

Who is going to claim that they were sorted into the wrong house?

You are 11 years old - you are standing up in front of a room full of strangers and talented wizards - you're just glad to get that old thing off your head.

Ron didn't even know how the kids were sorted - he's had 5 brothers go to Hogwarts before him and he STILL didn't know. (It could just be a Weasley thing - don't clue the younger siblings in on what will happen.)

I think the descriptions are vague enough that you can see a bit of yourself in every house.

I'm guessing the Black family had a bit of a problem when Sirius was sorted into Gryffindor, but he didn't seem to mind.

Hollywand - Sep 15, 2004 1:42 pm (#1125 of 2971)

To continue the line of thinking that "The Sorting Hat says it has never been wrong...." Maybe Harry should ask the Hat why Peter Pettigrew was chosen as a Gryffindor?

haymoni - Sep 15, 2004 2:53 pm (#1126 of 2971)

I think we'll have to see if the life-debt thing ever plays out.

If it does, then Peter will show that he is brave enough to defy Voldy and save Harry.

TomProffitt - Sep 15, 2004 5:13 pm (#1127 of 2971)

Those of you know how to link quotes should check out Jo's quote for this thread. When asked if the Sorting Hat had ever been wrong, Jo replied, "It's sincere."

Which to my mind means that it could on occasion be mistaken. Of course that quote could have been referring to the "unite the houses" bit.

S.E. Jones - Sep 15, 2004 7:18 pm (#1128 of 2971)

What chat is that quote from?

I Am Used Vlad - Sep 15, 2004 7:37 pm (#1129 of 2971)
Edited Sep 15, 2004 8:39 pm

Arianna: Can we believe everything the sorting hat says? JK Rowling replies -> The Sorting Hat is certainly sincere.

It's from JKR Chat Transcript thread, so it is from her March chat.

Ann - Sep 15, 2004 7:39 pm (#1130 of 2971)

D.J. and Solitaire suggested a few pages back that JKR may be holding the good Slytherins in reserve for later, since it is so odd that we haven't met any of them. But I wonder if it isn't more a consequence of her editing: she says that she's taken a scene with Nott & Malfoy out of several books, and then there is a Weasley cousin who is a Slytherin (Malfada?) who was removed from GoF. If these were characters with large roles, she may have played down the other Slytherins so as not to overbalance; then, when they were removed, it looks like she is avoiding describing them.

(I tried looking "It's sincere" and various combinations of Hat and sincere up on the Quotes listing; no positives.)

Solitaire - Sep 15, 2004 8:05 pm (#1131 of 2971)

Well, since we have not heard so much as a peep from Blaise Zamboni and Theodore Nott--and so have not yet learned to hate them--perhaps they will become the Slytherins we can actually like. Just a thought ...

Solitaire

TomProffitt - Sep 16, 2004 4:01 am (#1132 of 2971)
Edited Sep 16, 2004 5:03 am

Thanks Nimrod, that was the quote I was trying to remember.

I don't know if that means the Hat could put a student in the wrong House or if it means it is not vitally important for the Houses to unite.

I think it best to assume it means the Hat is well intentioned, but fallible.

EDIT: I can't find "intentioned" in my dictionary, does that mean that word doesn't exist? I've used the phrase "well intentioned" all my life.

Hermy-own - Sep 16, 2004 6:09 am (#1133 of 2971)
Edited Sep 16, 2004 7:10 am

Well-intentioned is a commonly used expression(at least where I'm from).

Here's a definition of intentioned. Hope it helps.

Hermy.

Kasse - Sep 17, 2004 11:12 am (#1134 of 2971)

D.J. and Solitaire suggested a few pages back that JKR may be holding the good Slytherins in reserve for later, since it is so odd that we haven't met any of them. - Ann

Just to let you know Ann that it has been argued that we have met one of then, namely Tonks. When mentioning how she never became a prefect she said mysteriously 'my head of house said I caused too much trouble" (something like that I do not have OOP with me for the exact quote)she never mentioned the name of her head of house

now to realate this back to Harry

If Tonks turns out to be a Slytherin then maybe Harry will be ready to admit that he too was almost sorted into that house. He might not feel so bad about being considered for slytherine if someone he likes was in that house.

constant vigilance - Sep 17, 2004 1:32 pm (#1135 of 2971)

Hmm. If Tonks is a Slytherin, she certainly wasn't cast into the same mold as the other Slytherins we've met. I mean, if I was going to guess which house Tonks was in I might say Hufflepuff. And while I agree that Harry would probably need to meet a "good" Slytherin to change his perception of that house, I can't really blame him for not liking Slytherin.

Harry's introduction to Slytherin House was most disconcerting--first Draco saying he was just about certain that's where he'd be placed, and then Hagrid saying that You-Know-Who was a Slytherin and so were all of the Dark Wizards who followed him. Harry had a very good reason to not want to be a Slytherin--as Dumbledore explained, the House you are placed into becomes your family while you are in school. Would you be comfortable being placed within the family structure that bred the killer of your parents? I know I wouldn't...

Again, I am not saying there is no hope for Slytherin House. I am simply stating that so far, Harry has not been given a good reason to think positively about the Slytherins.

S.E. Jones - Sep 17, 2004 7:48 pm (#1136 of 2971)

While I agree that Harry hasn't had any good experiences with Slytherins in the past, I'd hate to see a few ruin his view of the entire house. There are more people and personalities in the house than the few we've seen highlighted. I think Harry needs to put some of his personal feelings behind, get rid of the chip on his shoulder, and open himself up to the possibility that Draco doesn't represent the whole House.

->I do agree that we need to try to turn our focus back onto Harry a bit more. We've been straying a little off point lately, though it's been an excessively enjoyable ride.<-

popkin - Sep 18, 2004 7:39 am (#1137 of 2971)

I think that Harry is a generous enough person to give everyone a fair shake. If there are good Slytherins out there, and if Harry meets them, I think he'll know right away that they are different from their housemates. That seems to be one of Harry's strengths - he gives everyone a fair chance.

constant vigilance - Sep 18, 2004 11:43 am (#1138 of 2971)

Popkin, I agree. I don't think Harry is totally closed-minded to the idea of a good Slytherin, he just hasn't yet had a reason to think well of the people of Slytherin House. And it didn't help that his introduction to Slytherin was that it was the house Voldemort had been in. But I have enough hope/faith in Harry that if he were given evidence to the contrary he would be able to change his mind about Slytherin.

Eponine - Sep 18, 2004 12:17 pm (#1139 of 2971)

Constant, this is totally off topic, but every time I see your avatar, I think it's broccoli!

I agree with you though. I think Harry just hasn't had a reason to think of any Slytherins in a positive light.

constant vigilance - Sep 18, 2004 12:38 pm (#1140 of 2971)

Eponine, Oh dear! It's the baobabs from the Little Prince, another of my favourite books. But I like broccoli, so that's not so bad =). But that is totally off topic. sorry!

LooneyLuna - Sep 18, 2004 5:00 pm (#1141 of 2971)

But lets not forget that the Little Prince could talk to snakes too!

You have good poison?

I think that Harry is maturing fast, and he'll befriend a Slytherin or two with some reservation, of course.

TomProffitt - Sep 19, 2004 1:58 pm (#1142 of 2971)

Hermy-own, I thought I was using an unabridges dictionary, I guess I wasn't, thanks.

TwinklingBlueEyes - Sep 19, 2004 6:16 pm (#1143 of 2971)

an unabridges dictionary

Tom, you made my heart skip a beat, I read that as umbridges dictionary, of which Harry sure is listed in that book! It must be getting late!

Gerald Costales - Sep 20, 2004 4:43 am (#1144 of 2971)
Edited Sep 20, 2004 5:44 am

Just posted this question in the Dumbledore thread, I thought it could fit here also.

With Harry and Voldermort sharing Brother Wands, how would that final confrontation occur? We already know what happened last time with the Brother Wands locking and releasing the shadows of Voldermort's recent victims in the graveyard. Wouldn't a second confrontation be another repeat of the first confrontation with the wands locking yet again?

Maybe Fawkes, because of the Feather core, or even the "Half-Blood Prince" will be the tie breaker, to allow Voldermort to be defeated. ;-) GC

Don't know why I haven't been to this thread before. But when I came up with this question I wanted as much feedback as possible. ;-) GC

Solitaire - Sep 20, 2004 6:09 am (#1145 of 2971)

GC, have you checked this page at Mugglenet? It says ... "These are facts straight from the mouth of J.K. Rowling, and were gathered from numerous online chats with her. Everything here is confirmed." There are some mighty interesting little pieces of information there.

One of the facts mentioned is that "it's very important in the plot that Harry has his mother's eyes, and that her wand was very good for charms." This leads me to wonder if Harry will find and use her wand at some point. I haven't yet decided what it makes me think about his eyes.

Solitaire

Julie Aronson - Sep 20, 2004 6:47 am (#1146 of 2971)

OOOHH! Great info!

Paulus Maximus - Sep 20, 2004 8:53 am (#1147 of 2971)

Not that this info is relevant to Harry, but some of the facts "not disclosed in the books" WERE, in fact, disclosed in the fifth book; e.g. Harry's middle name being James, and Lily's maiden name being Evans...

TomProffitt - Sep 20, 2004 8:17 pm (#1148 of 2971)

Sorry, Twink, that was a typo that should have been "unabridged."

TwinklingBlueEyes - Sep 21, 2004 2:53 am (#1149 of 2971)

Typo's can be a good thing! I liked umbridges dictionary better! She certainly has her own definitions, esp. where Harry's concerned. Thanks for the chuckle Tom, even if it was unintentional.

The Niffler - Sep 30, 2004 1:11 am (#1150 of 2971)
Edited Sep 30, 2004 2:15 am

Whew, I've just ploughed through all the posts. My brain is feeling fuddled. But I have a new theory that I don't think anyone has mentioned (probably because it's too ridiculous). It's one of those someone is actually someone else theories, so here goes:

Harry is Salazar Slytherin.

Now, before you start saying, "Harry's not related to Slytherin, JK said so", if he IS Slytherin, he isn't related to him. He just IS him. I have a couple of things to back up my (somewhat dubious) theory. There are the obvious things, like the hat shrewdly suggesting to put him in Slytherin house, and his Slytherin characteristics, such as Parseltongue, which Slytherin is said to have possessed.

Now, how could this happen? (This theory works in my head, but I don't know how it looks here Very Happy

). Well, what if, similarly to how Riddle became Voldemort, Harry is destined to become Slytherin. He grows darker throughout the books, and at some point, goes back in time and eventually becomes known as Slytherin, etc. Therefore all the events in all the seven books are in a constant time loop, with Harry going back in time, becoming Slytherin and the ancestor of Voldemort, then Voldemort transmitting some of his powers to baby Harry (who does NOT have to be related to Slytherin), and the cycle continues.

Now what if, in each recurrence of the time loop, two things can potentially happen: Harry can be killed by Voldemort, or if he chooses to avoid this, he can go back in time but always becomes Slytherin. Since Voldemort is the descendent of Slytherin, if Voldemort kills Harry, he kills himself unknowingly. Maybe the current loop of events in the HP series is the final loop of the time paradox where Harry chooses to sacrifice himself, so that although he dies young, he knows that Voldemort AND Slytherin will never exist, thus putting an end to both the pureblood and muggle-born segregation, and to the wars inspired by Voldemort. So in the end, it really is Harry who unites the Hogwarts houses, and proves to be like his mother in deliberately sacrificing himself to save others.

Then bits of the prophecy even make sense. "The Dark Lord shall mark him as his equal" (Harry and Voldie really are both Slytherins) and especially: "Either must die at the hand of the other" (but Harry can't kill Voldemort because that part of the cycle involves him always going back in time and becoming Slytherin).

Okay, this is too complicated.

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Mona Sat Sep 10, 2011 8:50 am

Loopy Lupin - Sep 30, 2004 5:03 am (#1151 of 2971)

somewhat dubious-- Dooby

Well, I have to say that I can agree with this much of your theory, but see no need for the qualifier.

Actually, I would also agree that there has been no real explanation why the sorting hat felt that Harry would "do well" in Slytherin. Still, I would imagine that if Harry were some kind of incarnation of Salazar himself, there wouldn't have been time for debate. The hat would have shouted "Slytherin!" before even being fully placed on Harry's head. As for the Parseltongue, I would tend to believe Dumbledore's theory that this is the result of some kind of transfer of power from Voldemort to Harry. I tend to believe that theory because even if it is DD's theory it, ultimately, comes from JKR herself.

Finally, I can't agree with this theory for at least two of the same reasons that I don't hold with the "Lupin is James" or "Ron is Dumbledore" theory. First, there are two books left. Though, together, they may be 2500 pages (I hope) there's only so much that can be done in two books. JKR has spent 5 books leading us toward the final battle between Harry and Voldemort and I can't see how we would have time to discover and explain an elaborate "someone is not who they seem to be" plot twist. Second, we've had Scabbers become Peter Pettigrew and then we had Moody turn out to be "fake Moody" through Polyjuice Potion. I don't think she's going to tap this well again.

Catherine - Sep 30, 2004 5:41 am (#1152 of 2971)

He grows darker throughout the books, and at some point, goes back in time and eventually becomes known as Slytherin, etc. Therefore all the events in all the seven books are in a constant time loop, with Harry going back in time, becoming Slytherin and the ancestor of Voldemort, then Voldemort transmitting some of his powers to baby Harry (who does NOT have to be related to Slytherin), and the cycle continues. --Dooby

Ok. I'm no expert at the time loop paradox thingies, as I've stated on the Time Travel thread. But I see many problems with this theory, Dooby. I can tell that you spent a lot of time thinking about the mechanism of time travel, which is interesting, but there are some big holes in your proposal.

JKR, through Dumbledore, has explained Harry's Parseltongue ability. Even if this were not the case, how exactly does Harry, even assuming that he gets a Time Turner and has enough free time to turn it back over a thousand years, "become known as Slytherin?" The images we've seen in the Chamber of Slytherin do not look like Harry. Or, does Harry go back a thousand years, drink Polyjuice Potion for the rest of his life, and masquerade as Slytherin?

I'm afraid that this theory also does not address Harry's motivation to go back in time and "become Slytherin." Nor does it show why Harry would be so antagonistic toward the idea of being placed in Slytherin House at his Sorting. It also fails to address how Harry is a "true Gryffindor," and pulls Godric Gryffindor's sword out of the Sorting Hat in order to defeat Slytherin's Basilisk.

I also agree with Loopy Lupin's concerns with the theory, also.

Ann - Sep 30, 2004 5:48 am (#1153 of 2971)

Actually, I think there's plenty of time left for a revelation that one of the characters is really someone else: all that is needed is that one of the characters admits it and explains how. It won't be repetitious if it isn't because the person is an animagus or because of polyjuice potion. But then I'm a firm "Dumbledore is Ron" adherent, so perhaps that prejudices me.

But as for Harry is Slytherin, why? What would it explain? What evidence is there for this in the canon? Doesn't make any sense to me at all. After all, it wasn't really that Sorting Hat wanted to put Harry in Slytherin; the Hat was just reacting to Harry's own "Not Slytherin!" thoughts.

Loopy Lupin - Sep 30, 2004 6:44 am (#1154 of 2971)

the Hat was just reacting to Harry's own "Not Slytherin!" thoughts. -- Ann

Good point. Plus, if you're right about Ron/DD, JKR will be way too busy explaining that one, don't you think?

Phoenix song - Sep 30, 2004 7:30 am (#1155 of 2971)

I agree that the reason that the Sorting Hat seemed to single out Slytherin is because Harry singled out Slytherin first. I think that Harry exemplifies characteristics of all four houses, and the sorting hat was thinking over these characteristics. "Where to put you?", and it was Harry who said "Not Slytherin."

It would be the same deal if I were the manager of a restaurant or something. I have a candidate who is qualified to do multiple tasks, and as I'm looking over their application I mutter, "Where do I put you?" If the applicant interjects, "Not a dishwasher!" I'm going to naturally respond, "Not a dishwasher, eh?" and then want to explore why this is so. "Being a dishwasher can help you on your way to having a paycheck, and you can do it...it's all here on your application. Well, if you're sure..." Okay, I've officially gone off the deep end. But I hope that I've gotten my point across. If somebody automatically offers that they DO NOT want to be someplace or to do something, the natural inclination is to explore WHY.

Barbie

Ann - Sep 30, 2004 7:48 pm (#1156 of 2971)

Phoenix song, very clear indeed!

So where would you put them then? "Well, if you're sure...better be AIRLINE PILOT!

TwinklingBlueEyes - Sep 30, 2004 9:56 pm (#1157 of 2971)

"Phoenix song, very clear indeed!

So where would you put them then? Well, if you're sure...better be AIRLINE PILOT!"""

I think Phoenix song was very clear in explaining why it would be a normal reaction to ask why. And I think JKR answers it well throughout the series, choices...

Given that the Sorting Hat has been described as having brains put into it, the fact it does live (sit) in Dumbledores office, also remembering someone said something about it having all year to think up a new song, but did issue warnings when it felt the school was in danger (Sir Nick).

As a thinking entity I would assume that it would ask why when Harry was so insistent about not being placed in Slytherin.

...of course, I'd never trust something I couldn't see where it kept it's brains... does family count here?

The Niffler - Oct 1, 2004 12:12 am (#1158 of 2971)
Edited Oct 1, 2004 1:40 am

Don't get too serious about this theory, you guys. I was half being tongue in cheek. I tend to hate those "someone is someone else" theories too. I'm just mentioning this as a possibility that hasn't been suggested. But even though I don't think there is much chance of it being true, I'll still clear up the holes you guys have suggested (I just knew I wouldn’t be able to explain this properly, hee hee).

Still, I would imagine that if Harry were some kind of incarnation of Salazar himself, there wouldn't have been time for debate. The hat would have shouted "Slytherin!" before even being fully placed on Harry's head. - Loopy Lupin

Okay. In this theory, I'm not saying that Harry is an incarnation of Slytherin, but that he is born a normal boy (well, wizard) with no link to Slytherin, either as a descendant or incarnation. For all present intents and purposes, he is just born "Harry". That is why the hat does not place him in Slytherin, firstly because at present he has no link to Salazar Slytherin (but the hat still detects the faint Slytherin qualities such as Parseltongue, which Voldemort passed to Harry, and this makes the hat ponder on Slytherin at any rate), and secondly for the obvious reason that Phoenix Song has stated: that the hat is just plain curious! Very Happy

As for the Parseltongue, I would tend to believe Dumbledore's theory that this is the result of some kind of transfer of power from Voldemort to Harry. I tend to believe that theory because even if it is DD's theory it, ultimately, comes from JKR herself. - Loopy Lupin

I believe this too. In my theory, Voldemort does transfer some of his powers to Harry, including Parseltongue. This is the first catalyst for Harry's eventual transformation into Salazar.

JKR has spent 5 books leading us toward the final battle between Harry and Voldemort and I can't see how we would have time to discover and explain an elaborate "someone is not who they seem to be" plot twist. - Loopy Lupin

Yes, some explaining would be necessary, but JKR is very good at explaining Wink

. She’s certainly explained weirder theories than this. In my theory, the final battle does occur, and this time, Voldemort kills Harry. In the other time loops, Harry went back in time. How? Not by a Time Turner, obviously. He would have a very sore wrist. But by some other means, maybe something similar to a Portkey, with strong magical powers that can pull a person somewhere else. If this can occur by moving from place to place, why not time to time? Certain things that have already introduced by JKR--an object that moves someone instantly from place to place (a portkey), a spell that moves someone instantly from place to place (Apparation) an object that moves someone slowly from place to place (floo powder) an object that moves someone slowly from time to time (a time turner), and an object that can rapidly alter an object in a time field (the jar in the DoM)--suggest the POSSIBILITY that there is an object or spell that can move someone instantly from time to time. And in any case, JK introduces new magical things into every book, a whole multitude of them. So obviously we haven’t seen everything yet.

Even if this were not the case, how exactly does Harry ..... "become known as Slytherin?" The images we've seen in the Chamber of Slytherin do not look like Harry. Or, does Harry go back a thousand years, drink Polyjuice Potion for the rest of his life, and masquerade as Slytherin? - Catherine

The images we've seen in the Chamber of Secrets were not drawn by JK, and are movie contamination. The artists do not know what will happen later in the books, as JK has not told them. Even if the images weren't inspired by the movie artists, do we know how old Slytherin lived to be? People's appearances tend to change over time, and this is even more valid with wizards, who live very long. In any case, when Harry hypothetically goes back in time, he would not go to the time when Salazar and the other Founders are adults, but when the Founders are also 17ish years old. See, there is no person who is born Salazar Slytherin in the past--because Harry later BECOMES Salazar in the past.

I'm afraid that this theory also does not address Harry's motivation to go back in time and "become Slytherin." - Catherine

Sorry, Catherine, I worded that wrongly in my first post. In this theory, Harry is not motivated to go back in time, specifically, but at some point in the final battle is either forcibly transferred there, by a spell, or chooses to bail and desperately grabs some object that he believes is a Portkey, but this object whisks him to another time, not another place. And Harry could quite possibly be hit by a Memory Charm in the battle or after he has been jolted back in time, and the only name he can remember is Salazar Slytherin. Believing it to be his name, he thereafter grows as Salazar.

Nor does it show why Harry would be so antagonistic toward the idea of being placed in Slytherin House at his Sorting. It also fails to address how Harry is a "true Gryffindor," and pulls Godric Gryffindor's sword out of the Sorting Hat in order to defeat Slytherin's Basilisk. - Catherine

He would not want to be placed in Slytherin House because at this point in the theory, he is not, nor has ever been linked to Salazar. He is not his descendent, and he is not his incarnation, and the only thing of him that is vaguely Slytherin are the powers that Voldemort transferred to him. At this stage in the books, he IS a true Gryffindor.

But as for Harry is Slytherin, why? What would it explain? What evidence is there for this in the canon? - Ann

Not everything that has happened in these books has been suggested or supported by canon in the previous books. If I'd suggested prior to GoF that there would be a magic goblet that determines which people are worthy, people would have laughed. I'm not coming up with any new concepts here; each aspect of my theory is supported by something that has already been introduced in the books (eg. time travel, portkeys, and blahdeblah), so I'm just putting 2 and 2 together (and probably making 15 of them). However, we do know that JK goes against the grain with her plots, and that she loves to write twists that truly shock us. We know that Harry has been growing darker throughout the series, and that he has been screaming and ranting that he just doesn't care about anything anymore. Maybe he will turn to darker powers in his grief. Why not? Tom did.

Okay. Having, said all that, I’ll recap the end of my theory. This time loop, in the final battle, something is different. Harry is not saved by being bounced back a thousand years, but makes the choice (there's that theme of choices again) to sacrifice himself, and Voldemort kills him. Consequently, both of them die, since Harry would have later become Salazar, who is the ancestor of Voldemort. This theory also supports the fact that Voldemort is not related to Harry, but is related to Salazar. And then this theory also explains how the houses can eventually be united (by making sure that the segregation can never come to be), the wizarding world can be at peace (no Vold Wars), and parts of the prophecy can be fulfilled (see my last post).

So even though it is highly unlikely that this theory will occur (JK has her own brill ideas) it's still technically possible. Hope that clears it up Smile

The Niffler - Oct 1, 2004 1:08 am (#1159 of 2971)
Edited Oct 1, 2004 2:15 am

Sorry, I forgot to mention, was that idea floating around that there is a character who changes houses later in the books ever confirmed? Because if it was, and if this theory holds up, it could be Harry, going from Gryffindor to effectively being Salazar Slytherin, and therefore a Slytherin.

Oh, and another idea pops up. Wow, they just keep coming Smile

What could be worse than death for Voldemort? How about ... never existing at all, either in the past or the future?

Catherine - Oct 1, 2004 3:32 am (#1160 of 2971)

Dooby, when you said, "The images we've seen in the Chamber of Secrets were not drawn by JK, and are movie contamination," you implied that I was referring to the movie images in my post.

I was not referring to the movie images, as I am well aware of movie contamination. I was referring to the stone image of Slytherin in the chamber that was described as "ancient and monkeyish, with a long thin beard." (CoS, p. 307).

Hope that clears things up a bit.

Gerald Costales - Oct 1, 2004 4:12 am (#1161 of 2971)

Dooby interesting thoughts. But if you're right maybe JKR is planning a series of "Salazar Slytherin and the . . ." books.

It's too much of a "Luke I am your father" twist to buy into. Don't think you're right but you did a great job presenting and defending it.

Brillant and original. ;-) GC

The Niffler - Oct 1, 2004 4:13 am (#1162 of 2971)
Edited Oct 1, 2004 5:17 am

Oh, ok, Catherine thanks. Whoops, I'm so dumb Smile

But I still think it's possible that a wizard's appearance can change over a period of many years, especially when they can grow so old.

And thanks Gerald Smile

I think it would be a long shot too, I just wanted to fill in some of the holes people were banging in my little theory.

Loopy Lupin - Oct 1, 2004 5:52 am (#1163 of 2971)

(Pssst. The Niffler f/k/a Dooby. Don't accuse Catherine of movie contamination; she'll crucio you in a heart beat.)

Well, I have read your responses to my reaction to the Harry is Salazar Slytherin theory. But, I don't really have anything to add to what I've already written. I simply see no evidence for it and the things that are presented are something else entirely.

LooneyLuna - Oct 1, 2004 5:55 am (#1164 of 2971)

As for Harry looking monkeyish, in OotP, Dobby paints a portrait of Harry. Fred and George say Harry looks like a Gibbon, which is a type of monkey.

The Niffler - Oct 1, 2004 5:59 am (#1165 of 2971)

Thanks for the warning Loopy Lupin Very Happy

Re the theory, that's okay, I don't expect everyone to agree with it. (I know I don't agree with a lot of other people's theories.) But you gotta admit, it is at least possible Wink

Solitaire - Oct 1, 2004 6:10 am (#1166 of 2971)

Twinkles, I have wondered, too, about the Sorting Hat, given Arthur Weasley's admonition. Does this mean he thinks it shouldn't be trusted either? If you decide to answer me, I guess we should take it to the Sorting Hat thread ... so I'll check there later! Smile

Solitaire

Paulus Maximus - Oct 1, 2004 9:21 am (#1167 of 2971)
Edited Oct 1, 2004 10:23 am

The "Harry is Salazar Slytherin" idea seems to me to be easily defeated for one reason:

Voldemort is described as "the last remaining ancestor (or descendant) of Salazar Slytherin," so Voldemort must be related to Slytherin either way. Harry and Voldemort are not related, so Harry cannot be Slytherin.

Loopy Lupin - Oct 1, 2004 10:17 am (#1168 of 2971)
Edited Oct 1, 2004 11:20 am

But you gotta admit, it is at least possible Wink

-- The Niffler

Well, I really don't want to, but I suppose anything is, indeed, possible. If JKR ultimately writes it, it will be so. Of course, it is possible that she could ultimately write that this series has been all a dream of Colin Creavy's, but I doubt she would want to see her precious books chucked out so many windows. And, frankly, she wouldn't be very sure to avoid that if we find out that Harry is somehow Salazar Slytherin.

T Brightwater - Oct 1, 2004 2:58 pm (#1169 of 2971)

All sorts of things may be possible, but not all that many of them are likely....

Solitaire - Oct 1, 2004 8:21 pm (#1170 of 2971)
Edited Oct 1, 2004 9:23 pm

Over on the Snape thread, the Occlumency issue is being discussed, but as I began to post my ideas, I thought they might work better here on the Harry thread, since they pertain more to his role in things.

Back in PoA, when Remus was trying to teach Harry the Patronus charm to dispel the Dementors, I remember Harry wondering how he was ever going to perform the charm successfully when there was still a part of him that wanted to hear his parents' voices.

In OotP, we know that Harry was always angry when he was dreaming about the corridor and something awakened him before he got to the door at the end of it. The truth is, he wanted to know what was beyond that door.

I think that part of the reason for his failure to really buckle down with Occlumency was that he felt it was his only way to learn what it was that Voldemort was after. Perhaps if Dumbledore had allowed him to be told a bit more--or had talked to Harry himself--he might have been able to give Harry sufficient information to actually make him want to learn his Occlumency. Then again, if Harry had learned to block Voldemort's intrusions, we wouldn't have had much of a story, would we? Alas ... earwax!

Solitaire

Phoenix song - Oct 1, 2004 8:46 pm (#1171 of 2971)

Solitaire: I think that you're really on to something! I knew that Harry wasn't giving his all to the Occlumency lessons, and I knew that he wanted to know what was down that corridor, but I hadn't connected it yet with him wanting to hear his parents' voices. Good catch! It would be difficult to near impossible to successfully accomplish a difficult piece of magic (like the patronus or occlumency) unless you are focusing you all into learning it. There must not be any part of you that does not want to be successful. I believe (but am too terribly lazy to verify at this moment) that what led Harry to tackle the Patronus was losing the Quidditch match due to the arrival of the dementors. I think that his humiliating loss gave him the extra incentive to "give up" this link to his past.

I'm certain that additional information as to the importance of the occlumency, (and the dangers of not mastering the art), would have given Harry the impetus to have mastered his curiosity and prevailed. Of course, as Solitaire has also said, if Harry had been able to block out Voldemort's staged "torturing" of Sirius we would have missed out on a great deal of story. We also would have been devoid of pertinent information.

Barbie

Solitaire - Oct 1, 2004 9:21 pm (#1172 of 2971)

Yes, Phoenix, the lit teacher in me is wise to these plot devices. Like any good, cooperative reader, however, I willingly engage in suspension of disbelief.

Truthfully, I am still enough of a kid at heart that I get thoroughly caught up in the stories and treat the characters as if they were real people. I am far worse than most of my students--although I do have a few who could give me a run for my money!

Solitaire

T Brightwater - Oct 1, 2004 9:41 pm (#1173 of 2971)

That's the magic of good writing - that the characters seem to have lives of their own, independent of the book. Trying to explain the inconsistencies just makes it more fun - as any Baker Street Irregular could tell you. :-)

Anyway, Harry's curiosity has been known to get the better of him - most disastrously, when he looked in the Pensieve to see what Snape was trying to hide.

Phoenix song - Oct 1, 2004 10:53 pm (#1174 of 2971)

Anyway, Harry's curiosity has been known to get the better of him - most disastrously, when he looked in the Pensieve to see what Snape was trying to hide.-T Brightwater

I have to agree whole heartedly. When Harry was contemplating looking into the Pensieve to see what Snape was keeping from him, I was yelling inside of my mind, "NO! Stop! BAD idea!"

These characters can seem so real that I'm almost ashamed of how much emotion I have invested in them. The other day another forum member posted on how they were still miffed at Dumbledore for the way that he treated Harry in the OoP and for the mistakes that he made with Sirius. I can understand this feeling. JKR has made this world and these characters so real that it is difficult to not see them as being real.

Barbie

Jessalynn Quirky - Oct 2, 2004 6:29 am (#1175 of 2971)

I know that we all tend to invest a little emotion in these characters--even though they're not real!

A lot of people said they cried after reading OOTP because of Sirius.

Phoenix song - Oct 2, 2004 8:42 am (#1176 of 2971)

You mean you didn't cry when Sirius died? I thought that everyone did? I was devastated. I cried when Cedric died, actually when DD made his speech about Cedric, I was too much in shock before then. I mourned Sirius as if he were my godparent.

Harry just seems so real to me. No other book and no other characters affect me like JKR's.

Barbie

Jessalynn Quirky - Oct 2, 2004 11:07 am (#1177 of 2971)

I didn't cry, but I was very shocked. I reread that part at least twenty times.

freshwater - Oct 2, 2004 2:09 pm (#1178 of 2971)

Same with me, Jessica. I didn't cry at Sirius' death (too shocked to take it in) or even during the scene in Dumbledore's office (although that's the saddest bit for me). But I did find myself re-reading the final chapters of OotP over and over....suppose I needed to keep revisiting it in order to really take it in and digest it.

Czarina II - Oct 3, 2004 4:53 am (#1179 of 2971)

Ditto, freshwater.

But they were very sad scenes.

Daioma Dumbledore - Oct 6, 2004 5:57 am (#1180 of 2971)

I cried! & Cried! & Cried! (Each time I've read it) Each time I think I won't cry when that part comes up, but when Lupin is holding Harry back from going to the veil & He's yelling for Sirius, oh, I just can't help it. It's like the burial scene in Steel Magnolias when Sally Field yells, "I'm fine I could run to Texas(?) and back but my daughter never could!" It just turns me to water every time!

Ginevra-Weasley - Oct 6, 2004 6:21 am (#1181 of 2971)

Me mum had to dry two bedsheets that day (I had blown my nose ni them).Booooo I am not still properly dry :-(

haymoni - Oct 7, 2004 5:58 am (#1182 of 2971)

On one of the other threads, they were discussing the meaning of "home" and I wondered about the relationship between Harry & Petunia.

Now that Harry knows why he must stay at the Dursleys, do you think he may feel differently towards Petunia?

I mean, he now knows how risky it was for Petunia to take him in. It certainly doesn't excuse her treatment of him, but do you think this revelation of why he is safe at Privet Drive may lead to some shred of understanding between them?

Solitaire - Oct 7, 2004 6:12 am (#1183 of 2971)
Edited Oct 7, 2004 7:13 am

haymoni, Harry has got to grow up sooner or later. If he holds a grudge for the rest of his life, he is going to be miserable. I know about this, because there are two world champion grudge-holders in my family. They are never happy ... ever. Their grudges control them.

Harry may never be able to forgive Uncle Vernon--not that he deserves forgiving for his abominable behavior--but perhaps he and Aunt Pet may be able to come to some sort of peace, for the sake of his mother's memory. Even if Aunt Pet remains as stubborn and unbending as she has been, forgiveness on Harry's part will make HIM--well, if not happier, it might make him less irritated over what they have done the past 16 or so years. He may have to settle for that.

Solitaire

popkin - Oct 7, 2004 6:34 am (#1184 of 2971)

I can't see Lily holding a grudge against her sister - which is funny, because we have almost no back story on Lily, and since she is entirely back story, that means we have almost no information on Lily at all. One thing we do know though is that Harry has her eyes. I think that means that Harry will see things as Lily would have seen them. Lily saw the good that others could not see in people (sorry if that's a bit of movie contamination - it's a bit hard to keep it all straight). Harry will be able to see Petunia and Vernon (and Dudley) as people with tremendous shortcomings, but who are nonetheless his relatives. They are the only family he has, and that will be reason enough for him to eventually accept them. He won't ever like them, or really enjoy being with them, but he'll realize that they are who they are. Once he is no longer required to share living space with them, I think he'll be able to move on.

Solitaire - Oct 7, 2004 9:46 am (#1185 of 2971)

I agree about Lily. She is one who obviously understands love and the importance of those we love. Although I have no proof for what I believe, I get a sense from what we have read that the estrangement between Petunia and Lily was Petunia's desire.

I tend to agree that Harry will probably be able to move on once he no longer feels like a prisoner. Hopefully, there will BE a Harry to move on and a family to accept when it's all over.

Solitaire

Ann - Oct 7, 2004 10:04 am (#1186 of 2971)

I don't know, Solitaire, he might find the Dursley's a lot easier to forgive and accept if he knew he wouldn't actually have to deal with them any more!

haymoni - Oct 7, 2004 11:48 am (#1187 of 2971)

I had posted this on the Aunt Petunia thread a while back. Thought you might like it:

Now that Harry knows why he needs to be at Privet Drive, he will be able to tolerate it better.

Although I can see Harry writing Dumbledore -

OK, I've been here 3 days. Is that long enough to make the protection stick? Can I go now?

I've been here 1 week. Aunt Petunia actually touched me when she passed by me in the hallway. Am I protected NOW???

It's going on a fortnight. I've reached my limit. If you don't send for me now, I will not be held responsible for my actions!

Hermy-own - Oct 7, 2004 12:00 pm (#1188 of 2971)
Edited Oct 7, 2004 1:01 pm

Hehe! I remember the post, haymoni. It still makes me giggle!

I would love for Harry and Petunia to put all the history behind them and forgive each other. It certainly would make for a touching scene...

Hermy.

Ann - Oct 7, 2004 12:04 pm (#1189 of 2971)

It would certainly make a touching scene...

Yeah, and then he could write Dumbledore and say "Aunt Petunia actually touched me...Am I protected NOW?!?"

Hermy-own - Oct 7, 2004 12:19 pm (#1190 of 2971)
Edited Oct 7, 2004 1:20 pm

LOL! Ann, that was 'spew-worthy!' It is with luck that I did not happen to be drinking any coffee at the time!

Let me try again: I would love for Harry and Petunia to put all the history behind them and forgive each other. Furthermore, I hope the Dursleys, Dudley included, begin to treat Harry like family. That way, he would not dread staying at 4PD each summer, and more importantly he would not have to write facetious letters to Dumbledore. *winks at haymoni and Ann*

Hermy.

Potions Mistress - Oct 7, 2004 12:21 pm (#1191 of 2971)

Harry has got to grow up sooner or later. If he holds a grudge for the rest of his life, he is going to be miserable.--Solitaire

Let's face it, if Harry doesn't grow up, he's going to end up like Snape in that aspect--he'll become what he hates. So, I hope for his sake that he does try to find some understanding about his Petunia (as well as Vernon and Dudley). But I can also see him using that understanding with "I don't hate them, can I go now?"

~pm

Prefect Marcus - Oct 7, 2004 12:57 pm (#1192 of 2971)

Yes, Harry still is carrying around far too much baggage. There is Snape, the Dursleys, and the entire Slytherin house.

I fully agree with Potions Mistress that if he doesn't start dropping those grudges, he is going to end up being what he hates.

popkin - Oct 7, 2004 4:41 pm (#1193 of 2971)
Edited by Oct 7, 2004 5:44 pm

Hermy-own - Oct 7, 2004 1:19 pm (#1190) Furthermore, I hope the Dursleys, Dudley included, begin to treat Harry like family. That way, he would not dread staying at 4PD each summer, and more importantly he would not have to write facetious letters to Dumbledore.

I'm afraid that's not in the cards. Every year the Dursley's treat Harry worse than they did the year before. This past summer he was simply ignored completely, until he was locked in his room where he was ignored and imprisoned. He was in solitary confinement when the advance guard showed up, and he had not had a decent meal all summer. There's no way the Dursleys will start treating Harry like real family. They will never even treat him like a human being.

Harry will forgive them, because he will not want hate to have a hold in his life. He will realize that he can't change their behavior or their attitudes toward him, but that he can change how he feels about them.

Potions Mistress - Oct 7, 2004 5:16 pm (#1194 of 2971)

I don't hold out any hope for Vernon or Dudley changing, but I have just a teeny-tiny smidgen of hope that <*i> maybe <*/i> Petunia will have a (slight) change of heart. I think this was demonstrated in OotP after the Dementor attack. First of all, Petunia does have to acknowledge she has a connection to the wizarding world (more than her husband and son). Second of all, she has a deal or understanding or something with DD that Harry is to be protected. I'm not hoping for Petunia to start treating Harry as her own son, but maybe she won't let him be placed in solitary confinement during his summer stay.

Still, Harry must also realize that there will probably be very little change at Privet Drive. Instead of being bitter about it, I hope that he accepts it for what it is--needed protection, and more time to fight LV.

~pm

Solitaire - Oct 7, 2004 9:16 pm (#1195 of 2971)

Sometimes, growing up involves being able to look at certain people and just realize that what you see in them is probably all you are ever going to get ... because it is all they have to give. Being angry at people for being who they are is useless, because they really don't even know you are angry--or don't care. The only one who is hurt by your anger ... is you.

When one gives so much of oneself to hating and carrying grudges, there is little energy and emotional room left over for anything positive. As PM says (I think it was you), Harry must let go of all that junk or risk turning into the thing he hates. I hope he can rise above that fate.

Solitaire

Albus-Dumbledore - Oct 8, 2004 3:48 am (#1196 of 2971)
Edited Oct 8, 2004 4:55 am

Hey I dunno whether this question has been raised in this thread before, but anyway here it is.

During an interview, when JKR was asked in which Hogwarts room she'd like to be for 1 hour, she said it would be a room in which Harry has been before, but doesn't know its importance. Yet. (this could have happened in book 5, but we're unsure). You can check authenticity of this fact by going here:http://www.mugglenet.com/books/futurebooks/book6facts.shtml. This is a fact confirmed in mugglenet's website.

So what do you consider? Which room is it and what's so important about it?

haymoni - Oct 8, 2004 4:33 am (#1197 of 2971)

It is my understanding that she was referring to the Room of Requirement.

At the time of that interview, GOF was out and we were waiting for OotP. JKR says that the room was mentioned before but Harry didn't know its importance.

Some people thought it was the room where they took the Champions after the names came out of the Goblet. But a "select few" recalled Dumbledore's chamber pot room.

Potions Mistress - Oct 8, 2004 9:55 pm (#1198 of 2971)

I think Solitaire is right. I doubt the Dursleys realize the extent of their in-/actions and it's better if Harry just accepts it for what it is and move on to bigger and more important things. I think that since he is older now and realizes why he has to stay with the Dursleys, he might be able to accept and move on. Anger and bitterness, not only toward the Dursleys, but Snape, and I'd even go as far to say DD (and goodness knows who else, for whatever reason in HBP), would be a huge interference in the fight against LV. I hope that Harry takes a long, hard look at Snape and see where all Snape's pent-up anger and grudges have gotten him.

~pm

Ann - Oct 9, 2004 7:14 am (#1199 of 2971)
Edited Oct 9, 2004 8:17 am

Solitaire, you are very wise and absolutely correct, although as I'm sure you realize that your rational and enlightened view of one's persecutors is very difficult to achieve, at least while they are still around and persecuting.

The quote about the mysterious room is from a March 2001 chat for Comic Relief: Q: If you could travel to Hogwarts for an hour, what would you do there? JKR: Go straight into a certain room, mentioned in book four which has certain magical properties Harry hasn't discovered yet! I had thought at one point that she said Harry had actually been in the room, but now I cannot find anywhere that she did, so it probably was the Room of Requirement. (The fact that she put it on her website suggests, too, that it is one of her favorites.)

But the room I'm curious about is mentioned in an intriguing line on her website itself: in her write-up of the Godric's Hollow fan site: she says that Hufflepuff's common room is in a cellar, not a dungeon: "a subtle but important difference." Why should anyone think the Hufflepuff's common room is a dungeon in the first place? (It's downstairs, but so are the kitchens.) And why should the fact that it's a cellar be important?

freshwater - Oct 9, 2004 7:59 am (#1200 of 2971)

Ann wrote: ...Hufflepuff's common room is in a cellar, not a dungeon: "a subtle but important difference."...

And why should the fact that it's a cellar be important?

Interesting point, Ann, and one that is new to me. I suppose my image of a dungeon includes dark, dank, dripping stone walls with iron chains and manacles insinuating torture, madness, evil and insanity.

But, my image of a cellar is one of dimness, order and storage of necessary and useful things, including tools (maybe weapons?) and preserved foods. And that's a connection with Hufflepuff House is makes a lot of sense, but had not ocurred to me. I wonder if we will see this house--and its assets (human and material)--become more vitally important in the struggle against Voldie and the DE's in the next 2 books.

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Solitaire - Oct 9, 2004 8:11 am (#1201 of 2971)

Ann, you are correct--it is an enlightened view and not an easy one to reach. As I said earlier, I have seen this in my family, and I pointed out this very lesson to one of the grudge-holders last night.

The offender usually goes on his merry way, not thinking about it much. He has hurt himself in the long run, but he either doesn't know or doesn't care. The victim--left holding the bag (or grudge)--cares so much he just can't put down the bag (or grudge), and he winds up dragging it for years and being weighed down to the point where he finally can't move on. This has been Snape, I think. Sadly, this has turned Snape into something of an offender, I believe.

Hopefully, Harry is young enough that he can see this for what it is and realize that trying to hang onto hatred and resentment will just poison him. One needn't be old to come to this realization; I was pretty young. I saw what similar sentiments were doing to an adult I loved very deeply, and I decided I couldn't live like that ... dragged down and "stuck" by hurt and bitterness all the time over something I could not change--and it was probably not likely to change, because the offender was not likely to change any time soon.

There are times and situations when youth has more perspective than age because it isn't fettered by so many past experiences. Hopefully, Harry will see this more clearly than Snape has done and learn to accept that some people (Snape, Uncle Vernon, perhaps even Dudley and Aunt Pet) are probably never going to treat him with any respect or decency. Constantly trying to get something from someone who cannot or will not give it is an exercise in frustration and a waste of time. It's best to just keep one's exposure to such people (Snape and Uncle Vernon, for example) to a minimum.

Solitaire

Flutterby - Oct 9, 2004 2:00 pm (#1202 of 2971)
Edited Oct 9, 2004 3:01 pm

I'm new to the Lexicon and there are ALOT of posts to catch up on.... I was just wondering if there has been any speculation about Harry's eyes? Several times it is remarked that he looked like his father but had his mothers eyes. I vaguely remember JKR referencing it somewhere. Was there something particularly special about her eyes that maybe Harry inherited? I may be way off base but it comes up an awful lot in the books.

haymoni - Oct 9, 2004 3:35 pm (#1203 of 2971)

Flutterby - the topic of Harry's eyes has it's own thread.

I'm not good at the linking thing so you'll have to search for it yourself.

There is a LOT of speculation about Harry's eyes.

Solitaire - Oct 9, 2004 4:35 pm (#1204 of 2971)

Welcome, Flutterby. Here is a link to the thread about Harry's eyes. Yes, they are a major topic of interest--LOTS of theories about Harry's eyes.

Solitaire

eggplant - Oct 17, 2004 9:53 pm (#1205 of 2971)

“When one gives so much of oneself to hating and carrying grudges, there is little energy and emotional room left over for anything positive. […], Harry must let go of all that junk or risk turning into the thing he hates. I hope he can rise above that fate.”

You mean something like this could happen:

In the 20 years since Harry killed Voldemort he has become the most respected and feared professor at Hogwarts. On the first day of class as Harry glanced over a list of his new first years he saw a name he recognized. He looked down on a terrified looking eleven year old boy with a hooked noise and greasy black hair and sneered, “Mr. Snape! What would I get if I added powdered root of asphodel to an infusion of wormwood?" “I don't know sir," said the little boy. "Let's try again.” Said Harry in a hard cold voice, “Snape, where would you look if I told you to find me a bezoar?" The little boy looked like he was on the verge of tears when he croaked out in a very small voice, “I don’t know sir”. "And what is the difference, Snape” Harry roared just inches from the trembling boy's face “between monkshood and wolfsbane?"

Eggplant

Solitaire - Oct 17, 2004 10:08 pm (#1206 of 2971)

I doubt whether Harry would do that to any kid, eggplant--even Snape's kid. But who does his hatred of Snape really hurt? Does Snape lose sleep over it? Probably not. It hurts Harry more than anyone else, because it robs him of energy that could be used more productively elsewhere. It may even prevent him from learning something important from Snape, because he can't get past the grudge.

Snape's grudges and hatred have prevented him from hearing and accepting the truth about Lupin, Sirius, and James. He seems to have persisted in his belief that Sirius was the traitor, even in book 5, when everyone else has accepted the truth--at least, this is what some of his comments to Harry about his father's beliefs about Sirius seem to imply.

Solitaire

Ludicrous Patents Office - Oct 22, 2004 3:33 am (#1207 of 2971)

Gosh eggplant that presents a grim future for Harry. Bitterness and disappointment can change people. I hope Harry has enough moral fiber to not allow the bitterness to take over. If Harry continues to hate Snape, or anyone for that matter, it will be harder for him to defeat Voldemort. DD ordered Mrs. Figg to not let Harry know she was a squib. She gave Harry a hard time. Maybe Snape is supposed to make Harry hate him. It would be easy for Snape to do because of past connections with James and it would look good to Voldemort. LPO

eggplant - Oct 22, 2004 7:18 am (#1208 of 2971)

I guess that was a little grim, OK,maybe it will have a happy ending:

And then Voldemort said "Harry I can see you were right, you were right about everything. I can't thank you enough for returning my lost little puppy, Skippy, to me" Voldemort wiped a single perfect tear from his eye and said "You've taught me the true meaning of friendship and the true meaning of Christmas too. I know now I've made some poor decisions in my life. Harry, I'm sorry I tortured you and murdered your parents, I don't think that was a very nice thing to do, I really don't. " "Ah, forget it you knucklehead" said Harry feeling slightly embarrassed and giving Voldemort a friendly punch on the shoulder. "None of us are perfect we all make mistakes." They put their arms on each other's shoulder and then the feeling of joy in the hearts of both Harry and Voldemort became so large that they could contain it no longer and burst into song: "I love you, you love me, we're a happy family..."

And they all lived happily ever after.

Eggplant

Potions Mistress - Oct 22, 2004 9:38 am (#1209 of 2971)

Eggplant, you are wonderfully weird!! LOL!! :-)

~pm

Jessalynn Quirky - Oct 22, 2004 2:48 pm (#1210 of 2971)

THAT was my daily shocker for the day. I burst into insane laughter. Thanks, eggplant!

total hatred - Oct 22, 2004 3:13 pm (#1211 of 2971)

I never knew that Voldie has a puppy. I thought Voldie only takes snakes as pets. Oh I almost forgot, Voldie really has pet dogs. His lap dogs that is.

Ludicrous Patents Office - Oct 22, 2004 3:20 pm (#1212 of 2971)

LOL eggplant. Great ending. Much better than the previous. Though I like the hope you have of Snape finding someone to marry and start a family with. Somehow I think Harry would be tormenting the poor child as the DADA teacher. There is always hope he can learn the subtle art of potion making. LPO

Ann - Oct 23, 2004 6:01 am (#1213 of 2971)

Actually, however destructive Harry's hatred for Snape is (and I think it is pretty destructive already at this point), one thing I suspect he would not do is take it out on Snape's son. He's had a little too much of being viewed as James, by Snape and (I think he'll come to see) by Sirius. He is also coming to realize that he is a different person from James, and not necessarily a worse one. He's too able to put himself in other people's shoes to blame Snape's son for Snape's behavior.

Solitaire - Oct 23, 2004 9:11 am (#1214 of 2971)

I agree, Ann. All his life Harry has been blamed, either by the Dursleys or by Snape, for being his parents' son--something he couldn't help. Neither Snape nor the Dursleys seem able to separate Harry from the "offenses" of those with whom they associate him.

It's rough when you have to live down not only your own personal peccadillos, mistakes, and errors in judgment (including behaviors that are considered mistakes by others) but all those of your parents, as well. No wonder Harry is a bit cranky by book 5!

Solitaire

Zirtaheb - Oct 25, 2004 11:58 pm (#1215 of 2971)

I thnk that Harry has living as an adult person. His experiences are similiar to the experiencies of an adult person and this is one reason for Harry to die. It isn't very good for a boy to do thinks that he realley don't have to do. He is living very very fast.

(I have a sense that my english can't explain this idea at all Sad

)

Hermy-own - Oct 26, 2004 9:08 am (#1216 of 2971)
Edited Oct 26, 2004 10:10 am

Zirtaheb,

A similar thing has recently been said of Hermione, over on the Hermione Granger thread: she, too, does not seem to be having much of a "teenager-hood."(to borrow from Solitaire )

Harry and Hermione need only to hang in there for two more books, then their lives should, in theory, become more "normal." This will be much easier said than done, mind you; after all, they've got to defeat Voldemort along the way!

Hermy.

freshwater - Oct 26, 2004 12:58 pm (#1217 of 2971)

Zirtaheb, you explained that just fine. If isn't good for a young person to have to assume the cares and responsibilities that would normally fall to someone with much more experience and maturity. It is almost as though Harry is living a compressed life: like he's lived 30-40 years worth of experiences in his 12-16 years. I can see where this might lead you to think that he will then die at the end of book 7...but I really hope you're wrong!

Ludicrous Patents Office - Oct 26, 2004 5:38 pm (#1218 of 2971)

Harry and Hermione have to make up for the time they missed in the wizarding world. Ron has an advantage growing up around magic. Harry's great thirst to prove himself and his connection with Voldy have forced him to learn a lot in a short time. LPO

wwtMask - Oct 27, 2004 5:18 am (#1219 of 2971)

LPO, I think his thirst to not be murdered might also encourage him to learn a lot very quickly.

Jessalynn Quirky - Oct 27, 2004 1:45 pm (#1220 of 2971)

I agree. Like he said in GoF: "Now we know what to do if I can't learn a spell--threaten me with a dragon." I know I'd work harder in Harry's position!

Potions Mistress - Oct 27, 2004 3:27 pm (#1221 of 2971)

T Brightwater: What if DD or SS had said, up front, "Once you are good at Occlumency we can let you have more information"? I think Harry would have made Hermione look like a slacker.

I think these are exact and the only words that would make Harry cooperate.-Lina (from the Snape thread)

Looking at Harry's anger in OP, I think he would've done the opposite: told DD and Snape a few choice words and then to rebel against being kept in the dark, refused to learn Occlumency (to nobody's benefit, incl. Harry). After re-reading OP, I wanted to shake DD and tell him to tell Harry just what the heck was going on! ~pm

T Brightwater - Oct 28, 2004 6:00 am (#1222 of 2971)

Looking at Harry's anger in OP, I think he would've done the opposite

That might have been his first reaction, but I think he would change his mind once he calmed down. I'm going by his initial reaction to Hermione's suggestion that he teach a secret DADA class. (The way Hermione and Ron quote practically verbatim from one of Harry's own tirades is a nice touch.) He blew up, but once he had a chance to think about it he realized it was a good idea.

Also, if DD didn't want to explain this to Harry himself, he should have delegated Lupin or McGonagall to tell him - someone who likes and respects Harry and vice versa, not Snape.

I'd have told Harry at 12 GP,over the Christmas holidays: "As you know, there's a mental connection between you and Voldemort. Since the attack on Arthur, there is a strong probability that Voldemort is now aware of this connection and could use it against you and the Order. You need to learn Occlumency.

"Voldemort may try to use you to get at Dumbledore; that's why Dumbledore has been avoiding you, so as not to encourage him to do that. That's also why Dumbledore doesn't want to teach you Occlumency himself.

Voldemort will probably try to lure you to the Department of Mysteries to do something for him there; don't do it, no matter what you think is happening there. For now, that's all we can tell you; there is information he wants that we can't let you have until you learn how to protect your mind."

Professor Snape is good at this; you know he has some old issues with you, your father and Sirius, but try not to let that get in your way.

I think Harry would have responded well to an approach like this - treating him as an adult with responsibilities and experience, explaining at least to some extent why he's been kept in the dark, and not assuming that he can make all the logical connections on his own.

(Then I'd have had a little talk with Snape about mastering _his_ emotions.)

Gerald Costales - Oct 28, 2004 7:04 am (#1223 of 2971)
Edited Oct 28, 2004 8:08 am

Then I'd have had a little talk with Snape about mastering _his_ emotions. T Brightwater

I think Snape would have nodded his head and agreed with Dumbledore and still treated Harry the same.

This was a difficult situation. Harry needed more information but there was the problem of Harry tipping off Voldermort (Harry still has Voldermort in his head so to speak).

Too bad, there wasn't a "Cone of Silence", lead lined room, secured phone line, etc. to allow Harry more information. Dumbledore probably didn't handle the situation properly, but all of us can see the mistakes we made after the fact. Albus is as human as the rest of us. He puts his Wizard's robe on one arm at a time. ;-) GC

PS Do Wizard use buttons, zippers or velcro? And what does a Wizard wear under his robes anyway? ;-) GC

Liz Mann - Oct 28, 2004 7:06 am (#1224 of 2971)
Edited Oct 28, 2004 8:07 am

Why the heck didn't they say all that from the moment he first arrived at Privet Drive?? It doesn't give away any of the things they wanted to keep from him, but lets him know enough that he doesn't get frustrated. But noooo, they give him tantalising hints about a secret weapon then tell him to go to bed.

Well, actually the reason why they didn't do this is obvious. A lot of the storyline wouldn't have happened if they had.

MickeyCee3948 - Oct 28, 2004 7:10 am (#1225 of 2971)

Evidently DD isn't worried about Voldemort finding out anymore as he relates all of the information to Harry at the end of OotP.

Mikie

Liz Mann - Oct 28, 2004 7:18 am (#1226 of 2971)
Edited Oct 28, 2004 8:18 am

Why would he have changed his mind? I thought that maybe he just didn't expect Voldie to be 'listening in' at that point, since he would have been distracted by his considerable fury at both the prophecy being smashed and his secrecy from the Ministry being blown. Perhaps Voldemort can only read the thoughts that Harry is thinking at that particular moment. After all, he had to learn of Harry's devotion to Sirius through Kreacher, not through his thoughts.

Steve Newton - Oct 28, 2004 7:49 am (#1227 of 2971)

And what does a Wizard wear under his robes anyway? ;-) GC

Some things are best left unknown.

TwinklingBlueEyes - Oct 28, 2004 10:19 am (#1228 of 2971)

And what does a Wizard wear under his robes anyway? ;-) GC

Grey underpants come to mind...

Paulus Maximus - Oct 28, 2004 10:21 am (#1229 of 2971)

And what does a Wizard wear under his robes anyway? ;-) GC

From what Archie said, something very loose, if anything at all...

Tessa's Dad - Oct 28, 2004 10:37 am (#1230 of 2971)

A nice pair of silk lined underrobes?

MickeyCee3948 - Oct 28, 2004 10:50 am (#1231 of 2971)

Voldemort couldn't have been to upset or Harry would have felt it in his scar. I have placed a theory on the Harry/Voldemort connection and wonder if some of the other members of the forum would read it and see if I should punish myself of have a few butterbeers.

Mikie

Jessalynn Quirky - Oct 28, 2004 1:48 pm (#1232 of 2971)

I'll read it!

MickeyCee3948 - Oct 28, 2004 2:10 pm (#1233 of 2971)

Thank You very much Jessalynn.

Mikie

Solitaire - Oct 28, 2004 8:11 pm (#1234 of 2971)

Mikie: Evidently DD isn't worried about Voldemort finding out anymore as he relates all of the information to Harry at the end of OotP

Am I the only one who thinks Dumbledore did NOT confide ALL of his information to Harry ... and that he still has more than a few juicy tidbits of information and many more tricks up his flowing Wizard's sleeve?

Solitaire

Liz Mann - Oct 29, 2004 1:14 am (#1235 of 2971)
Edited Oct 29, 2004 2:15 am

You're not the only one. I think so too. J.K. said at the Edinburgh Book Festival that we should be asking outselves why Dumbledore didn't kill Voldemort at the Ministry. So clearly there are still things to find out.

MickeyCee3948 - Oct 29, 2004 10:40 am (#1236 of 2971)

Solitaire - I agree - I don't think that from the first chapter of the PS/SS Dumbledore has been COMPLETELY forthcoming with information to anyone. He had to know about the Sirius/Peter battle when he dropped off Harry at the Dursleys and didn't divulge that fact to either Hagrid or Minerva.

Mikie

Paulus Maximus - Oct 29, 2004 12:25 pm (#1237 of 2971)
Edited Oct 29, 2004 1:26 pm

Dumbledore didn't try to kill Voldemort at the ministry because he knew that he was powerless to do so, and that only Harry could finish him off for good.

Liz Mann - Oct 29, 2004 12:52 pm (#1238 of 2971)

That's too obvious. J.K. said that that, and what steps Voldemort took to make himself immortal, are the two main things that we should be thinking about to unravel the mysteries of the series. If the answer were that obvious now that we know the prophecy, she wouldn't have said that. Unless she's giving out red herrings.

Paulus Maximus - Oct 29, 2004 5:28 pm (#1239 of 2971)
Edited Oct 29, 2004 6:35 pm

What further reason is necessary for not doing something, if you know for sure that it won't work?

Maybe the real question is, why wouldn't it work?

And of course, Voldemort's undeath would probably have an effect on that as well...

Ludicrous Patents Office - Oct 30, 2004 2:10 pm (#1240 of 2971)

Voldemort has done a lot to make sure he can live forever. I think Harry may have to kill him with a special set of circumstances. DD knows what would kill Voldemort and he has to set it up so Harry can do it. Harry has been marked by Voldemort as his equal. He has been magically protected by his mother and DD. DD may have other protections or enhancements he put on Harry. Just some rambling thoughts! LPO

roz000 - Oct 30, 2004 7:58 pm (#1241 of 2971)

This is probably off the subject of what was being talked about but I have to pose a question. Does anybody think Harry will die? I think he might, and if that happens I know that wouldnt make me mad, because I believe that that would be an ok ending. It shows what the price of evil is. It shows that because of Voldemort, and inoccent boy and so much riding on his shoulders and he ended up dyeing. It shows that so many innocent lives were wasted, just because Voldemort is a power hungry fool. Any thoughts?

Solitaire - Oct 30, 2004 11:34 pm (#1242 of 2971)

It's possible.

The giant squid - Oct 30, 2004 11:38 pm (#1243 of 2971)

roz000, it depends on the rest of the outcome. If Harry dies as a noble sacrifice, giving his own life to stop Voldy, then I'd probably accept it--not like it, but accept it. If Harry dies just to say that life is hard and there are no happy endings, I'd probably join the mob of disgruntled fans wending their way to Scotland...

--Mike

Liz Mann - Oct 31, 2004 2:03 pm (#1244 of 2971)
Edited Oct 31, 2004 3:04 pm

I am worried that Harry will die but I sincerely hope that he doesn't. I don't think that it would be an okay ending. It would be terrible for him to die after everything he will go through to get to the final battle. I agree with what the giant squid says about how it won't be as bad if Harry dies through noble sacrifice, but I will still be part of the mob wending their way to Scotland.

Uh oh, I've just thought of something... Maybe Sirius is the first of every person Harry cares about dying, so that at the end it won't be as bad that Harry dies too because he has nothing to live for anyway.

Hollywand - Oct 31, 2004 4:07 pm (#1245 of 2971)

Harry has plenty to live for! He has a whole Order of the Phoenix devoted to him, two great friends, the White Wizard as his mentor and a talented git for a Potions Master.

Rowling's not going to send Harry to the toaster. The series is about hope and courage and triumph. Go Gryffindor.

T Brightwater - Oct 31, 2004 5:26 pm (#1246 of 2971)

I sincerely hope Jo isn't going to kill off every one of Harry's friends. The only way I can see Harry dying is if his death is the only way to defeat Voldemort; he'd make that choice gladly.

MickeyCee3948 - Oct 31, 2004 6:03 pm (#1247 of 2971)
Edited Oct 31, 2004 7:04 pm

Hollywand I agree with you I don't see JKR killing off Harry, but I am afraid one of the gang is going to go down. I'm afraid it will be Ron but his death will serve as the rallying point which pulls at least the 3/4th of Hogwarts together. After all even with his unwavering support of Harry he has never really made any enemies in either Ravenclaw or Hufflepuff. His death will make all of the houses understand their own vulnerability.

Mikie

Ludicrous Patents Office - Oct 31, 2004 6:44 pm (#1248 of 2971)

I agree that if Harry dies it will be to cause Voldemort's death. I hope he does not. He is connected to Voldemort in so many ways it may be the only possible outcome. I hope he does not become Voldemort to destroy him. LPO

Liz Mann - Nov 1, 2004 10:23 am (#1249 of 2971)

Harry has plenty to live for! He has a whole Order of the Phoenix devoted to him, two great friends, the White Wizard as his mentor and a talented git for a Potions Master.

At the moment, yes. But what I'm saying is maybe she'll kill off the two great friends and the White Wizard (who I think is actually very likely going to die), so that Harry wouldn't have anything much to live for by the end of the seventh book when he comes to make the sacrifice.

Although, actually, if Harry and Voldemort's life forces are joined (which would explain why Harry would need to die to get rid of Voldemort), then why are people trying so very very hard to keep Harry alive?

Anyway, I hope you're right Hollywand.

Weeny Owl - Nov 1, 2004 10:36 am (#1250 of 2971)

I don't think Harry will die mainly because no matter what has happened to him so far, each book has ended on an up note. Even with Sirius dying, Harry was pleased at seeing his reception committee at King's Cross.

Having said that, I could still see JKR killing him for various reasons, one of which is if it's the only way to defeat Voldemort.

I really don't think she'll kill Ron and Hermione, although that possibility is lurking in my mind. Even if she did, I'm not sure that would mean the end of Harry.

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legolas - Nov 1, 2004 11:40 am (#1251 of 2971)

Go Hollywand-Nice bit of positive thinking there.

I dont think Harry is going to die at the end of the book. At the same time I dont think he is going to live happily ever after either. I think he might well have a nice bed in St Mungos as a result of the damage sustained. I could be wrong but it would give a real finality to the books without making her public enemy number one. Otherwise Jo will be pestered to the end of all time to write a sequel.

Liz Mann - Nov 1, 2004 11:42 am (#1252 of 2971)

Even with Sirius dying, Harry was pleased at seeing his reception committee at King's Cross.

Or, more importantly, Umbridge was chased out of Hogwarts.

Potions Mistress - Nov 1, 2004 2:43 pm (#1253 of 2971)

Although, actually, if Harry and Voldemort's life forces are joined (which would explain why Harry would need to die to get rid of Voldemort), then why are people trying so very very hard to keep Harry alive?--Liz Mann

I've figured it's because Harry's power to defeat LV isn't quite up to par yet; it still has to be further developed (if Harry must die to defeat LV).

Either that, or because Harry doesn't have to die to defeat LV (and his power still has to be developed, anyway). I hope it's this case.

Maybe if we all collectively channel our desire for books 6 and 7, JKR will get them written (and thus published) faster. ;-)

~pm

Hollywand - Nov 1, 2004 3:09 pm (#1254 of 2971)

I actually think that Harry's power to unite the Order behind him, and the forces of Snape and Dumbledore will prove to be too powerful for the Dark Lord.

And, perhaps a bit of help from some muggle dentists and a Manx Mouse. ;-)

I think the ending will be upbeat and charming. Yes, you can call me Pollyanna Hollywand.

Having said that, I still think Ginny or Percy one or both is "headed for the toaster" to use an eyebrow raising metaphor cluck-clucked on the Ginny thread.

Why? There's a legendary supersition in the British Isles that if one weasel is killed, a whole group of weasels is sure to attack. All of the other Weasleys have been quietly receiving dragon hide regalia, one by one, um, save for Ginny and Percy Ignatius (Fire). I need some suspenseful music here, please..... ;-)

Jessalynn Quirky - Nov 1, 2004 4:06 pm (#1255 of 2971)

Maybe if we all collectively channel our desire for books 6 and 7, JKR will get them written (and thus published) faster. ;-) --Potions Mistress

We're already doing that, PM!

T Brightwater - Nov 1, 2004 4:17 pm (#1256 of 2971)

And Jo knows perfectly well that as soon as we've all read HBP we'll be clamoring for the next one! (and what are we going to argue about after that?)

dizzy lizzy - Nov 1, 2004 4:23 pm (#1257 of 2971)

Are any of us really truly deep down looking towards the end?

T Brightwater you are so right - what are we going to do after that?

Potions Mistress - Nov 1, 2004 5:14 pm (#1258 of 2971)

Re-read each and every book (incl. the "school books" and possibly ones in a different language) and nit-pick at them even more than we do right now. Smile

As for if a Weasley dies, I don't think it'd be Ginny, she was almost down that road before.

~pm

Urvi Bhimani - Nov 1, 2004 5:23 pm (#1259 of 2971)

If a Weasley is to die, it has to be Ron. I can just feel it.

MickeyCee3948 - Nov 1, 2004 5:29 pm (#1260 of 2971)

Jessalynn-Every night right after saying a prayer for my seven grandkids and my five kids. I add a little one for JKR and her family. Most of the time she ranks above my wife of 34 years.

As for which Weasley may meet the bitter end, I will place my money on Percy. I think after his cauldron full of mistakes in the last two books, I wouldn't be surprised if he attempts some dumb action to try and get back into the good graces of his family and the ministry which will prove unsucessful in a permanent way.

Mikie

Catherine - Nov 1, 2004 7:16 pm (#1261 of 2971)

I add a little one for JKR and her family. Most of the time she ranks above my wife of 34 years. --MickeyCee3948

I don't think that JKR would find that so very nice, actually. I hope you were kidding, and I missed the cute part.

Solitaire - Nov 1, 2004 8:11 pm (#1262 of 2971)

I realize JKR doesn't need more money, but I hope she considers all of the future Potter fans out there, some not even born yet. Knowing that Harry is going to die before they even pick up book one of the series would really rob them of a lot of the joy of the series. I speak feelingly; there are certain books I refuse to read because I already know the hero/heroine dies--and I already love to read.

I think of many of my young students who never voluntarily cracked a book before HP came along but are now devoted Potterheads. I have a couple who say they will not read the last book if they find out Harry dies. Sad

I hope that doesn't have to happen. Are you listening, Jo?

It isn't as if we would all die of sugar poisoning if our Trio and Remus were to live--and the DEs got blasted off the face of the earth--is it? After all, we have already met death and devastation along the way. Surely there are others who are far better suited for life beyond the veil. I can think of several!

Solitaire

Ann - Nov 1, 2004 8:56 pm (#1263 of 2971)

Surely there are others who are far better suited for life beyond the veil. I can think of several!

Now, Solitaire! We're not supposed to talk about politics on the site! (Sorry--do vote, everyone!)

Potions Mistress - Nov 1, 2004 9:29 pm (#1264 of 2971)

Solitaire, I do agree that JKR wouldn't be "sugar-coating" series if HRH, Remus, and the Weasleys (with the possible exception of Percy) lived. Ann, I'm already ahead of you--absentee ballots make voting way easy; the ballot comes to you! Smile

~pm

Solitaire - Nov 1, 2004 10:04 pm (#1265 of 2971)

Ann, is that politics? I was thinking perhaps ... Fudge, Malfoy, Umbridge ...

eggplant - Nov 1, 2004 10:56 pm (#1266 of 2971)

“I have a couple who say they will not read the last book if they find out Harry dies. […] It isn't as if we would all die of sugar poisoning if our Trio and Remus were to live”

So you’re saying that a devoted Harry Potter fan would devour 6 books but because he heard a rumor that Harry would die they wouldn’t even bother to look at book 7 and find out how it all ends. Not a snowball’s chance in hell. And yes, I think if the Trio and their friends were all to live happily ever after it would be so sweet we’d all be in grave danger of developing diabetes.

The most popular and profound dramas in human history have all been tragedies, from Shakespeare to the ancient Greeks to the most money making movie of all time, Titanic. If Harry is still living at the end of book 7 it will be in a emotionally damaged state, grieving over the loss of friends and second guessing himself over the unpleasant and controversial things he had to do to defeat Voldemort.

Eggplant

Solitaire - Nov 1, 2004 11:09 pm (#1267 of 2971)

Eggplant, I am talking about kids. They don't always think like the rest of us. I have kids who have said just what I told you.

Also, who said anything about living happily ever after? I said that I didn't think NOT killing them off would make us die of sugar poisoning. I think JKR can wreak plenty of devastation without actually killing everyone we care about.

Ludicrous Patents Office - Nov 2, 2004 4:43 am (#1268 of 2971)

JKR portrays how life and personal choices change people. Her characters evolve. Things continue to happen. I do not see a neat, Happy Ever After ending for Harry. He will be a very different person. Hopefully alive and a powerful wizard. There will be more tragedy to live through. LPO

wwtMask - Nov 2, 2004 5:34 am (#1269 of 2971)

How about a compromise? Harry doesn't die, but he has to struggle with the emotional/physical toll that the entire ordeal has taken on him, kind of the way that war affects the lives of soldiers after the fighting has stopped. And, for the shippers out there, someone (i'm not naming names) brings him back from the brink of despair and he learns to move on. Not too saccharine, not to harsh.

T Brightwater - Nov 2, 2004 6:49 am (#1270 of 2971)

A damaged Harry living quietly in the background is a little too much like Frodo, don't you think? Of course, just about any ending you can think of has been used somewhere.

In Tolkien's essay "On Fairy Stories" he says that although tragedy is the highest form of drama, eucatastrophe (good catastrophe, the "turn" that leads to the happy ending) is essential to fairy-tales. Eucatastrophe depends on the very real (in terms of the story) presence and possibility of loss, defeat, and tragedy, and the joy that accompanies it is anything but sugar-coated.

In Dorothy L. Sayers' _Busman's Honeymoon_, she contrasts two attitudes toward life. For Peter, speaking of his past, life was essentially dismal and worthless; day-to-day events were the little points of interest that kept him going; for Harriet, life was essentially good even though many tragic and painful things had happened to her. I think Jo's with Harriet, and I don't think she'll let us down.

Solitaire - Nov 2, 2004 6:56 am (#1271 of 2971)

Brightwater, I loved that novel (and all of her Peter-Harriet novels and stories)! I like the comparison and hope you are right.

Solitaire

MickeyCee3948 - Nov 2, 2004 7:19 am (#1272 of 2971)

Catherine - Of course, I was kidding sorry you missed the humor my wife thought it was very funny.

Mikie

Catherine - Nov 2, 2004 7:37 am (#1273 of 2971)

I thought so, Mickey, but it's nice to have you confirm it! Well, please wish Jo and your wife the very best from me...

Steve Newton - Nov 2, 2004 7:45 am (#1274 of 2971)

I was thinking(believe it or not) about Snape giving Harry Occlumency lessons. It is strange that Snape was selected since they, to put it mildly, don't play together nicely. Then I thought that the most immediate secret that Harry knows is that Snape is an agent for Dumbledore. Perhaps Snape wanted to teach Harry because he had the most to lose.

Liz Mann - Nov 2, 2004 2:07 pm (#1275 of 2971)

Somone asked what are we going to do after the seventh book. Well, probably nit pick about all the tons of teensy tiny little questions that weren't answered in the books (and I'm sure they'll be loads because J.K. might not recognise all of them as questions).

Jessalynn Quirky - Nov 2, 2004 6:35 pm (#1276 of 2971)

I can see Jo being annoyed until the end of her life answering all these tiny, nagging questions that are really unimportant to the plot (in some cases, anyway) but drive us bonkers!

roz000 - Nov 2, 2004 8:15 pm (#1277 of 2971)

I have something else. Im thinking that maybe at the end if he kills Voldemort he will try to isolate himself and be alone. Then everybody will try to be close to him. When I think about that it seems more possible that in the end he will try and leave it all behind him and be by himslef.

Solitaire - Nov 2, 2004 8:49 pm (#1278 of 2971)

It's possible, roz. I think it would depend on just how many people he loves die in the war. He has already lost his parents and Sirius. I move the loss of his parents forward, because in a sense, he is only now getting to know them, years after their death. Learning who they are and how they died makes it all seem rather fresh. Does that make sense?

If Harry were to lose Remus, Hermione, Ron, Hagrid, and the senior Weasleys ... I think it might very well cause him to want to turn his back on the WW. Harry has certainly endured considerable loss already, for one so young. I hope he finds some kind of peace eventually.

Solitaire

TomProffitt - Nov 2, 2004 9:18 pm (#1279 of 2971)

I can see Jo being annoyed until the end of her life answering all these tiny, nagging questions that are really unimportant to the plot (in some cases, anyway) but drive us bonkers! --- Jessalynn Quirky

This reminds me of a Saturday Night Live skit where William Shatner is at a Trek Convention and a fan asks "Remember the episode so and so, where you're about to beam down to the planet, but first you open your safe and look at your medals? What was the combination?"

A lot of the questions we want to know the answer to are just about that trivial in the big picture. I know many of mine are. I'll be happy to speculate at unanswered questions at the end of the series, I trust Jo to answer the important ones.

Ann - Nov 2, 2004 10:55 pm (#1280 of 2971)

When I think about the ending of the series, it seems to me that the one thing that cannot happen is Voldemort's survival. Whether Harry lives or dies, the resolution of the story requires that Voldemort be permanently vanquished, out of the picture, no longer a problem. Anything else would be a violation of the form and the dramatic premises she has established.

And if you accept that (and I think even JKR has to), the key to Harry's fate is perhaps to be found in the prophecy: Neither can live while the other survives. If this means what it appears to (and I don't completely rule out the possibility that it doesn't), it implies that neither Harry nor Voldemort has been living, in the sense they were meant to, because the other survives. And if Harry can fully live only after Voldemort's death, it would seem almost a failure to fulfill the prophecy to have him die. I don't think he will be happy for a while, but where there is life, there is hope.

This is obviously not a flawless logical argument; there are several holes and jumps. But I think, purely on the basis of the literary form, that it's the most probable bet.

Liz Mann - Nov 3, 2004 6:04 am (#1281 of 2971)

Actually, perhaps all the people Harry cares about won't die. Because J.K. said in Harry Potter and Me (BBC December 2001) that the last chapter of book seven, which she has already written, describes what happens to everyone after they leave school (those who survive). Which makes it sound like she's talking about the students. Some will die but not all. So some of Harry's friends will die, but not all. So if he does live, he will have something to live for.

Solitaire - Nov 3, 2004 6:44 am (#1282 of 2971)

Since I am among those who want Harry to live, I hate to be a Gloomy Gus; but "Harry and Me" could be a retrospective told by one of the other characters because Harry isn't around to tell it himself. Sad

Just so it isn't Rita Skeeter's account of his last days or something equally bizarre.

Solitaire

Liz Mann - Nov 3, 2004 7:33 am (#1283 of 2971)

Oh, I wasn't saying that it's evidence to suggest Harry will survive, but that at least some of his friends will, so that if Harry does he won't be too lonely.

StareyedSlytherin - Nov 3, 2004 9:31 pm (#1284 of 2971)

Ann , I would be dissapointed too, if although neither can live while the other survives, the one who wins the battle ends up not getting that chance to live after making sure that his enemy doesn't survive. I think JK said somewhere that the wording of the prophecy was important. Maybe that's what she meant. Could be just hopeful thinking on my part too though..

Snuffles - Nov 4, 2004 12:57 pm (#1285 of 2971)

Hi everyone this is my first post although i have been following the forum for a while. Whilst re-reading ootp i noticed on page 736 of the British version that when DD is explaining to Harry why he must stay at the Dursleys he says "you would be protected by an ancient magic of which he knows, which he despised, and which he has always, therefore, underestimated - to his cost. I am speaking, of course, of the fact that your mother died to save you. she gave you a lingering protection he never expected, a protection that flows in your veins to this day. i put my trust, therefore, in your mother's blood. i delivered you to her sister, her only remaining relative." HER only remaining relative.

The way is see this is Harry had to go to the Dursleys because his mother sacrificed herself and her blood is in Harry. The only other person who has his mothers blood is aunt Petunia. Has DD ever said that there is no other remaining relatives on James' side or does Harry just presume that because he has never been told different. DD knows that if Harry thought his fathers parents were alive he would want to live with them (and who could blame him!!) he was made to live with the Dursleys and now that LV has overcome this blood protection after his re-birthing by using some of Harrys blood this protection no longer exists. Maybe Spinners End is where Harrys grandparents live on James' side and DD decides he can no longer keep them secret and sends Harry there after the death(sob sob) of Sirius. Sorry for the long post but i had to say it and now you can all pelt me with Stoat sandwiches and pick holes in my theory. Hope this made sense.

Liz Mann - Nov 4, 2004 1:01 pm (#1286 of 2971)

I think even if Harry couldn't live with them, any living relative of his would have made themselves known by now.

T Brightwater - Nov 4, 2004 2:28 pm (#1287 of 2971)

Hi Snuffles, glad you decided to stop lurking and join in!

I thought JKR said, (in a chat somewhere? on her website?) that all of Harry's grandparents are dead. Also, at the very beginning, Dumbledore says that the Dursleys are all the family Harry has left, which rather suggests that he doesn't have anyone as close as an aunt, uncle, or first cousin on James's side either. I find it hard to believe that _all_ of James's (or Petunia's, for that matter) extended family are dead, though it's possible, but second or third cousins don't exactly count as family. And yes, you're right, even if distant cousins of his father would have taken him in, he needed to go to where his _mother's_ blood resided.

I think the protection of Lily's sacrifice still works at 4 Privet Drive - Voldemort spoke in the present tense at his rebirthing party speech: "Not even I can touch him there." If it doesn't, I can't imagine DD letting Harry stay there a moment longer than necessary.

freshwater - Nov 4, 2004 2:29 pm (#1288 of 2971)

Clever idea there, Snuffles. Thanks for sharing it! Even if it's not James' parents, it makes sense that Spinners End could be a different place for Harry to spend the summer....although, wouldn't the blood thing with Voldemort have had its effect in diminishing the protection at the Dursleys, by the end of GoF? Hmmmm....

Liz Mann - Nov 4, 2004 3:14 pm (#1289 of 2971)

Actually, Harry probably has lots of family out there. It's just that they're so distant that they don't really count as family. Remember what Sirius said about all the pure-blood families being related in some way? Well, James was pure-blood as far as we know, wasn't he? So Sirius and James were related, Sirius and Harry were related, Harry and Ron are related, Ron and Malfoy are related and Harry and Malfoy are related. *shudders*

Potions Mistress - Nov 4, 2004 4:19 pm (#1290 of 2971)

Does anybody know for certain if James was pureblood? I don't think it's ever said for certain, but I could be mistaken.

~pm

Solitaire - Nov 4, 2004 9:48 pm (#1291 of 2971)

If James and both his parents were only children and died, there might not be any other surviving family members around. Do we know whether James had siblings? What about his parents? I would like it not to be so, because I'd like Harry to discover some really wonderful extended family members.

Jessalynn Quirky - Nov 5, 2004 3:44 am (#1292 of 2971)

Don't know about hios parents, but she did say somewhere that James is an only child. Or maybe I've been reading too much fanfics......

wwtMask - Nov 5, 2004 5:39 am (#1293 of 2971)

I'm not sure if this has already been answered, but, since Voldemort has found a way around Harry's protection, does that mean he can hurt Harry while he's at the Dursley's? If not, he sure went out of the way just to be able to touch Harry!

This is off the subject, but I sure hope Harry starts to take more of an interest in his family. Maybe his whole experience with the Mirror of Erised had something to do with his almost uninterested attitude about that subject?

LooneyLuna - Nov 5, 2004 10:22 am (#1294 of 2971)

I was thinking of the Mirror of Erised. It did show Harry surrounded by family, not just his parents, but other family members as well. Now, did the mirror show us some truths? I'm thinking that it did and that's why Dumbledore cautioned Harry about the mirror, that men went mad looking at it. Dumbledore could have merely been putting off Harry's curiosity about James' side of the family, since Dumbledore wasn't ready to tell Harry the truth.

Liz Mann - Nov 5, 2004 12:33 pm (#1295 of 2971)

You know, for someone who is always interested in finding out more about his parents, there sure are a lot of extremely obvious questions that he hasn't even thought of. Like why are all my family dead? What did my parents do for a living? He has a tendancy not to see things that are obvious sometimes.

Annika - Nov 5, 2004 12:52 pm (#1296 of 2971)

I wonder if his lack of question asking in regards to his family dates back to the "don't ask question" rule that he has lived with at the Dursleys. He was never allowed to bring up his parents/family. I agree, though, that it is odd that he hasn't asked.

Annika

Liz Mann - Nov 5, 2004 1:21 pm (#1297 of 2971)

Hmm... that's a possibility, actually. He grew up being told, "Don't ask questions" so it's become kind of an unconcious habit.

Actually, in the BBC programme Harry Potter and Me, J.K. said that in book five Harry would have to ask some questions that she was hoping the readers will think, "Why hasn't he asked that before?". Does anybody know what those questions were?

Mrs Brisbee - Nov 5, 2004 2:06 pm (#1298 of 2971)

I think another reason Harry doesn't ask questions about his family is that he becomes dangerously obsessed by them. It was his family he saw in the Mirror of Erised, that he wants so desperately above anything else. He became so distracted by wanting to hear his parent's voices in PoA that he had a hard time learning to conjure a Patronus. I think he took Dumbledore's advice to heart, to not dwell on dreams and forget to live. I think knowing too much about something he wanted so much but was always deprived of was just too painful. It isn't so much a lack of curiosity as consciously choosing to avoid the subject.

Now that he is maturing, the Weasleys are established as his surrogate family, and he has a solid group of friends to support him I think he will start asking questions about his family.

LooneyLuna - Nov 5, 2004 2:08 pm (#1299 of 2971)

Off the top of my head I say, "Why did my mom marry my dad?" and "Why does Snape hate me so?"

Liz Mann - Nov 5, 2004 3:13 pm (#1300 of 2971)

Well, the latter one has asked.

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Solitaire - Nov 5, 2004 6:17 pm (#1301 of 2971)

LooneyLuna, in Chapter 29, page 671 of OotP (US ed.)--the first time Harry talks to Sirius and Remus in Umbridge's fire (when the Weasleys set off all the fireworks)--he asks Sirius, "How come she married him? ... She hated him!"

Solitaire

LooneyLuna - Nov 5, 2004 6:32 pm (#1302 of 2971)

Solitare, yes, I know Harry asked that question. Liz Mann referenced a JKR quote and I was giving an answer, although I didn't know the exact quote. Thank you.

Ann - Nov 6, 2004 10:13 am (#1303 of 2971)

Solitaire asked, some posts back, "Do we know whether James had siblings?" I think we do: he didn't, at least have any brothers. When Sirius is telling Harry about Harry's grandparents in OotP, he says something like "they took me in like a second son." That of course leaves open the possibility of an aunt, but I think with Petunia and Marge, Harry's had enough of those.

I sort of agree that the Dursley's prohibition about questions has probably made him hesitate to ask about his parents too much. And I really like the idea that he is a bit afraid that thinking about them will weaken him, as it has--not only in PoA, but also in OotP (when he looks at the Prophecy and realizes that it is responsible for his parents' death, losing track of the fact that he and his friends are threatened by 12 DEs). But his mother strengthened him in PS/SS, his father (as a patronus) protected him in PoA and OotP, and both of them saved him at the end of GoF, which may be why giving any thought to the possibility that they weren't perfect is also terrifying. So he's finding that his parents are a mixed bag (as they all are).

I also wonder whether some of his incuriousness might just be that kids do take so much for granted. The way things are tends to be seen as the only way they could have been, and it takes a while for them to develop an interest in their and other people's family history. (Think of their attitude towards Neville, for example.) Harry's growth in that direction may simply be slowed by a number of factors. (I do think it's odd, however, that he didn't ask about his parents' careers when he was told to begin thinking about his own. Their careers must have been common knowledge--Ron might even know. And Hermione surely does!)

Solitaire - Nov 6, 2004 10:21 am (#1304 of 2971)

I don't believe Harry ever thought to ask about Neville's parents or Susan Bones's parents, because some people are taught that such personal questions would be impolite.

TomProffitt - Nov 6, 2004 10:34 am (#1305 of 2971)

It could also be that Harry doesn't know who he can or should ask. Or even know who would have the information he wants.

Liz Mann - Nov 6, 2004 2:50 pm (#1306 of 2971)

Liz Mann referenced a JKR quote and I was giving an answer...

J.K. said, before it came out, that in book five Harry would have to ask some questions that she was hoping the readers will wonder why Harry hasn't asked before. I just can't remember him asking any questions in OotP that might qualify, and was wondering if anyone else could think of anything.

librarian314 - Nov 6, 2004 2:55 pm (#1307 of 2971)

Hey all!

Asking questions about a dead parent isn't easy. My mom died over 20 years ago and it still isn't easy to talk to my dad, grandmother, and aunt and uncle about her. First as TomProffitt said, it's hard to know who to ask. Secondly, Harry really is a compassionate sort and asking people about dead friends/relatives can be upsetting for them. About the only people left to ask questions of are members of the Order of the Phoenix from the first Voldemort war. Throughout much of OotP, Harry was cut off from those that might have answered the questions, should he have asked them.

Hopefully, he'll ask the right people the right question in HBP and get the answers we want.

# *michelle the librarian**

Liz Mann - Nov 6, 2004 4:37 pm (#1308 of 2971)

I don't think he didn't ask questions about them because it was a hard subject. If that were it he would at least be thinking them, and J.K. would write them in the books. He doesn't even seem to think of the obvious questions.

LooneyLuna - Nov 6, 2004 4:52 pm (#1309 of 2971)

Speaking from my own experience (my dad died when I was 7), I never really wondered about him until I was an adult. I never thought too much about who he was. And I'm sure a lot of kids don't dwell on their parents, even when they are alive.

Harry is still a kid, so I'm willing to cut him a little slack on asking pertinent questions about his parents. He hasn't really asked many questions up until now, I'm sure that will change in HBP. Or at least, I hope! Smile

Adamo Lateramen - Nov 6, 2004 8:33 pm (#1310 of 2971)

Hello all, my first post on this thread, so I want to make it good. I have suffered severe depression throughtout my teenage years (I am 20 now and almost completely recovered) Harry really struck a chord with me in OotP. The pent up fear, anger and hurt that he expressed in bursts (as immature 15 year old boys do) made me cry, and i realised that poor harry will never quite get over his losses and pains. All the horrible things he is exposed to and all the darkness inside him is so like depression.

Could Harry Potter be clinically depressed? feelings of withdrawl, and constant sadness nearly overwhelming him at times, that certainly seems like depression to me.

Potions Mistress - Nov 6, 2004 10:13 pm (#1311 of 2971)

Hey Adamo, welcome to the Forum! I think that's a very interesting way to look at Harry. When we see how much he has been through, since he was a little baby to finding out that he is somehow supposed to fight the ultimate evil--which is the root of all his problems, but being kept in the dark about it...I think that it is possible that Harry does suffer from some form of depression. What makes me sad is that in OoP, acting on DD's (well-intentioned, but misguided) orders (I assume), nobody was really there to give Harry the kind of help and support that he needed.

~pm

Liz Mann - Nov 7, 2004 10:20 am (#1312 of 2971)

Adamo - that's a good point. I don't think he was clinically depressed in OotP, just angry. But I wouldn't be at all surprised if he is at the beginning of HBP, because of Sirius and being told about the Prophecy. However, there was one point in OotP when his behaviour was kind of like clinical depression and that was when the Dursleys had him locked in his room after the incident with the Dementors. He'd spend all his time laying on his bed, staring at the ceiling and slipping into a kind of stupor. I have a feeling he will be doing a lot of that in the coming book, at least until he starts to come to terms with it all, and particuarly before he goes back to Hogwarts. I mean, at Privet Drive he's completely alone. But at Grimmauld Place, it's even worse because it's Sirius's house, and it's just going to remind him of things because Sirius should be there but isn't.

Solitaire - Nov 7, 2004 11:25 am (#1313 of 2971)

I agree, Liz, that GP is going to be even more depressing now that Sirius is gone. I shudder to think, too, what will happen when Harry sees Kreacher for the first time after Sirius's death. **sigh**

Tessa's Dad - Nov 7, 2004 11:50 am (#1314 of 2971)

I don’t believe that Harry is able to ask questions. He was raised under the authority of the Dursleys. The Dursleys were a family that treated him as if he were less than an unwanted pet. “Don’t ask question!” This seemed to be the Dursley family motto. I feel that this attitude may have followed Harry into his school years. If Harry asked any questions in school, I’m willing to bet that Dudley would tell the Dursleys and they would punish him for this.

After 10 years of such treatment it will take an amazing amount of love and understanding before Harry reaches a point where he feels comfortable asking anyone questions.

Who is Harry close enough to ask questions? In my mind Harry is still reluctant to trust anyone enough to ask questions. He seems to have a very hard time trusting enough to open up to anyone around him. I can’t say I blame Harry for this attitude.

Before you break out the bag of chalk and walking stick, I’ve tried to find places in the books where Harry opened up and shared with his friends. I’m not including the times he blew up in the fifth book. I don’t consider those examples sharing, those were a small nuclear accidents!

Ludicrous Patents Office - Nov 7, 2004 12:03 pm (#1315 of 2971)

Harry is learning to ask questions. That is why it was so important to him to talk to Sirius after seeing what jerk his dad was. Hopefully he will be able to turn to Remus to ask more questions.

I have a feeling Voldemort is responsible for more than a few of Harry's family members deaths. He is missing both sets of grandparents. Petunia spends her time denying the WW exists. It may be because she lost her parents and sister to it. As for the Potters, we know wizards live longer than Muggles so they may have met with an untimely death. LPO

Adamo Lateramen - Nov 7, 2004 5:12 pm (#1316 of 2971)

Depression: A psychiatric disorder characterized by an inability to concentrate, insomnia, loss of appetite, anhedonia(unable to feel pleasure) feelings of extreme sadness, guilt, helplessness and hopelessness, and thoughts of death.

The theory that Harry is depressed certainly started with is despondency in OotP, when locked in his room in Privet Drive, the burst of emotion and anger in Grimmauld Place against Ron and Hermione was never resolved until the end, it was always bubbling beneath the surface throughout the whole book. The only pleasure he got was in DA, and that was a revengeful feeling pleasure. I cannot fin one part in the book where Harry is content, really happy and satisfied with who he is and what he is doing.

He seems to constantly have the feelings described above. Now comes the interesting bit. In HBP Harry can go two ways. He can wallow in his sorrow and self-pity, only increasing his depression and loss of self, or he can overcome it with his friends and love shown from them. He has two roads to pick from, one leads him to a better self and the other to be a selfish, guilty, hating man.

Because he is the hero in the books, we like to think that he will develop a feeling that he is better than that, that Sirius dying will not cause him to give up that last feeling of hope in goodness, but what if he doesnt? What if J K Rowling makes Harry to become (gasp?) a REAL person with REAL problems, mentally? in occlumency, there was always lurking behind distractions, anger, feelings of guilt, and curiosity. he never seemed able to sleep properly or to concentrate fully (except on DA)

What do you all think? In HBP will Harry become a better person mentally, or will things only get worse for him, emotionally and mentally?

Paulus Maximus - Nov 7, 2004 5:23 pm (#1317 of 2971)

I can see Harry fighting sleep, maybe because I started staying up all night when I was 16...

If anything, Sirius' death would give him worse nightmares than Cedric's death gave him. Between that and the possibility of Voldemort probing his mind as he had probed Voldemort's (learning about the Prophecy, among other things) he might try to either fight sleep or master Occlumency by himself.

I would prefer that he do the latter, myself. Harry would get a well-deserved break if he managed to clear his mind...

Potions Mistress - Nov 7, 2004 7:17 pm (#1318 of 2971)

In HBP Harry can go two ways. He can wallow in his sorrow and self-pity, only increasing his depression and loss of self, or he can overcome it with his friends and love shown from them. He has two roads to pick from, one leads him to a better self and the other to be a selfish, guilty, hating man. Adamo

If Harry goes the latter, I think (fear) that he will become what he hates: Snape. Makes me wonder how exactly Snape became who is he today.

~pm

Solitaire - Nov 7, 2004 7:41 pm (#1319 of 2971)

After his conversation with Dumbledore at the end of OotP, Harry now realizes he is a "marked man." Presumably this knowledge will inform and direct his behavior and goals in the coming books. I just hope it does not make him reckless.

Steve Newton - Nov 8, 2004 6:42 am (#1320 of 2971)

Solitaire, I just finished listening to OOTP and I noticed the phrase "marked man." Since this is, in one way, a coming of age story I think that this phrase was a major turning point in the story. Harry is now a man, not a boy.

Mrs Brisbee - Nov 8, 2004 7:12 am (#1321 of 2971)

Hi Adamo. I think you are right about Harry being depressed. Me and my family went through several years of constant harrassment and death threats from a gang of drug dealers that were operating in our neighborhood, at the same time my husband and mother were suffering from serious physical illness, and we had a baby daughter. The authorities in town were totally useless and failed to address the problem (which had been growing for years before we moved here without them doing anything). I do know what depression is, and how important being supported by family and friends (and those in authority who can actually do something about the problems causing the depression GRR..) is.

One reason that the HP books spoke so strongly to me was because it was nice to read about someone with problems a lot bigger than mine, who handled them a lot better... until we get to OotP, at which point I can understand what he is feeling and why he acts the way he does. I actually loved the book, simply because I think he acts so realistically for someone who has been through everything he has (in fact I admit to finding it highly entertainly and more amusing than I probably should, because there are people who I would dearly have loved to scream I few unedited opinions at during my family's ordeal, but I usually excercise more restraint).

Harry certainly lacked the support needed to cope with his problems. The authorities who could help him deal with the problems failed him. By the end of OotP though he had a good support system in place, and maybe now the MoM will start tackling the real problems.

T Brightwater - Nov 8, 2004 7:12 am (#1322 of 2971)

Hi Adamo, welcome to the Forum, and congratulations on your recovery!

Speaking as someone who also suffered badly from depression in high school (and long after), before it was recognized as a disorder the way it is now, I think most people went through some kind of emotional upheaval during adolescence, and just about everybody has been "down" at sometime in their lives. As I understand it, though, clinical depression is distinct from that because it is apparently causeless (i.e. it's brain chemistry at work, not events) and persistent.

Harry may often be sad, angry, and frustrated about things that have happened to him, but I don't think he has a chemical disorder. He didn't really have much to be happy about in OotP, but he did feel relief when Ginny convinced him that Voldemort wasn't possessing him, and even felt like joining in when Sirius started singing; he had considerable satisfaction at the progress his underground DADA class made; he grinned at Professor McGonagall after she put Umbridge in her place during her "examination," and he was moved and comforted by the support shown him by the welcoming committee at the train station. He was downright elated on several occasions that involved Cho, such as when Hermione told him that Cho couldn't take her eyes off him during the first meeting of the DA. I think Harry has been depressed at various times, but that he doesn't have clinical depression.

I read in a companion volume somewhere that Jo has said that the Dementors are the one bit of intentional allegory in the books, and that they represent depression. Can anyone confirm this, or is this another of those smelly rumors? :-) If it is true, I think it's significant that Harry, who is more severely affected by Dementors than his peers, also learned at an unusually early age how to banish them - and he managed to do it even at one of the low points in his life.

Solitaire - Nov 8, 2004 11:14 am (#1323 of 2971)

Steve ... as far as we know, Harry has not yet confided all of what he learned from Dumbledore even to Ron and Hermione. I think we saw the results of his awareness of his ultimate destiny in his behavior during his final days at Hogwarts.

I believe his inability to feel comfortable either with them or apart from them demonstrates his awareness of the HUGE difference between what he must become--either Voldemort's victim or Voldemort's killer--and all of the possibilities that lie before them. While others look ahead and dream of their futures, Harry knows there is one showdown that must come before he can truly be free to pursue anything else. He really is going to have to live in the here and now.

I can't help thinking this is going to bring about major changes in his behavior to his friends as well as his adversaries. I hope it improves his time spent with Snape ... but I'm not counting on it. I hope this makes sense and doesn't sound like nutty rambling.

Solitaire

Elanor - Nov 8, 2004 12:13 pm (#1324 of 2971)

It does make sense to me Solitaire! I also think that it will be an immense relief for him when he will be able to talk about the prophecy with his friends, as it helped him when he thought he was possessed by Voldemort. I hope he will remember the lesson this time! If he is able to share his problems with true friends, the "dementor" will begin to leave him in peace. Hermione will reason about it aloud and say something like "Okay, I'm sure I've read something in a book about prophecies...", Ron will remain flabbergasted at him and, at once, he will feel better just to feel they are concerned and will do all that they can to help him. Or at least, I hope so...

BTW, Steve, I feel exactly the same thing when I read this part of OotP. Each time, the words "marked man" also remind me of Snape who is also a marked man, in the literal AND figurative sense of the words, as Harry is. I hope it foreshadows a better understanding between them.

Solitaire - Nov 8, 2004 12:20 pm (#1325 of 2971)

I'd never thought of Snape as a "marked man," Elanor, but you are correct. He is.

Regarding the prophecy, I'm sure that if Harry doesn't eventually tell Ron and Hermione about it, they will probably ask him. After all, it was such a critical focus of the battle in the DoM, wasn't it? They are bound to have questions about why it was so important--don't you think? I suppose Neville, too, deserves to know. After all, he was right there with Harry when it was broken.

Solitaire

Elanor - Nov 8, 2004 12:26 pm (#1326 of 2971)

I think you're right Solitaire! Hermione started to ask about it when she was in the hospital wing but Harry ran away ar once: he won't be able to do that all summer and, knowing Hermione, she will make him talk about it, as she did when she arrived at 12 GP for Christmas.

Neville deserves the truth too and it may even help him to understand what happened to his parents, why they were such "targuets" for the DE then. It may help him to feel better and also to take heart in the battle to come.

T Brightwater - Nov 8, 2004 2:36 pm (#1327 of 2971)

It's good for Harry that he has friends that won't let him get away with feeling sorry for himself for very long. I agree that he'll end up talking about the prophecy to someone; if not to Ron or Hermione at first, then Neville or Remus or Arthur Weasley.

Going back to a slightly earlier topic, not only has Harry been consistently discouraged from asking questions at home, he has not always had good experiences from asking them at Hogwarts. The first question he ever asked Dumbledore, if I remember correctly, wasn't answered until his fifth year. When he asked Lupin about Sirius, Lupin was rather abrupt, and Harry wished he hadn't asked. He had to be nudged by Sirius before he started asking questions of the adults at 12 GP because everyone had been telling him they couldn't tell him anything.

The questions he did ask about his parents were after his experience in Snape's Pensieve memory. This was really the first time he'd learned anything negative about his dad, and he wanted to know what that was about, especially since Lily Evans had apparently loathed James.

Liz Mann - Nov 8, 2004 2:36 pm (#1328 of 2971)

I studied psychology at college. Harry is not suffering from clinical depression at the moment. He is certainly extremely depressed, but there is a difference between that and clinincal depression. To be catagorised as clinical, it needs to be extreme. Snapping at his friends all the time and being moody and irritable does not make him clinically depressed. However, in HBP, he could be, because now he has even more to make him that.

Accouring to a website, the symptoms are the following (most are the same as was said earlier):

# A persistent sad, anxious or "empty" mood
# Sleeping too little or sleeping too much
# Reduced appetite and weight loss, or increased appetite and weight gain
# Loss of interest or pleasure in activities once enjoyed
# Restlessness or irritability
# Persistent physical symptoms that don't respond to treatment [such as headaches, chronic pain, or constipation and other digestive disorders]
# Difficulty concentrating, remembering, or making decisions
# Fatigue or loss of energy
# Feeling guilty, hopeless or worthless
# Thoughts of death or suicide

Harry suffers mildly from symptoms 5 and 9, but not enough for a doctor to classify him as clinically depressed. Harry is more angry than depressed in OotP.

T Brightwater - Nov 8, 2004 2:43 pm (#1329 of 2971)

Thanks, Liz, for the definition. I think Harry was closest to clinical depression during his last few days at Privet Drive, when he added symptoms 1 and 8 on your list to the others.

Fortunately, Harry is fairly resilient and he doesn't tend to hang on to bad feelings deliberately - unlike, for example, Snape.

Liz Mann - Nov 8, 2004 2:46 pm (#1330 of 2971)

I agree. But actually, clinical depression is more common in females than males. Males are more prone to schizophrenia. But Harry is definately not suffering from that at the moment. Whether or not he will in HBP is another thing.

T Brightwater - Nov 8, 2004 2:49 pm (#1331 of 2971)

Ooops, Liz, we're editing around each other's posts!

I'd be interested in hearing what you think Snape's diagnosis would be - see you on the Snape thread?

Liz Mann - Nov 8, 2004 3:14 pm (#1332 of 2971)

Possibly.

Ludicrous Patents Office - Nov 8, 2004 6:41 pm (#1333 of 2971)

Liz, my husband suffers from clinical depression. After he was diagnosed we were amazed at how many males do have clinical depression. I agree Harry has some of the symptoms. The big one is wanting to commit suicide. Harry wants out when he is talking to DD at the end of OoP. He wants to be someone else, not end his life. At least that is how I read it.

I do remember reading something about JKR saying the Dementers represent depression. I don't remember where though!LPO

Adamo Lateramen - Nov 8, 2004 10:55 pm (#1334 of 2971)

I find it very ineteresting that Harry feared Dementors, that Dementors are symbolic of Depression, and that he was able to overcome them with a Patronus Charm. However, actually over coming the symbol aka the dementors may be quite alot easier than actually over coming depression.

I guess i didnt mean 'clinical' depression the sort where the brains chemicals are at fault. i meant that throughout OotP there is a persistent sadness, culmitating in a death of a loved one, and the closest encounter yet with the Dark Lord. That has to effect Harry in darker and deeper ways than a simples Dementor, and he cannot rid himself of depression by casting a Patronus.

Paulus Maximus - Nov 9, 2004 7:40 am (#1335 of 2971)

I think it's more likely that Neville is clinically depressed than that Harry is.

Maybe it's simply that Neville can't think of a happy memory with which to conjure a Patronus...

mike miller - Nov 9, 2004 8:41 am (#1336 of 2971)

Harry's mental state during the entirety of OotP is extremely strained at the very least. DD said at the end of GoF that Harry had faced as much as any fully grown wizard and fared better than anyone could have expected (sorry - no books at work to check for the quote).

Here is the start of the problem for Harry. Up until this point, every adventure has been clearly focused and did not involve the ultimate defeat of Voldemort. Although DD recognizes Harry's resilience, he is still unwilling to fill Harry in on the "big picture". This is when Harry's desire for information and understanding takes center stage. He has always been curious and now, without DD's direct guidance, his lack of knowledge is more than Harry can manage. DD missed the golden opportunity to fill Harry in on the scope of things. DD should have acted quickly since he feared that Voldemort would eventually discover the connection between himself and Harry.

I see Harry as more a frustrated teenager who must deal with both his raging hormones and lack of understanding of what is going on around him than someone truly suffering from depression. Yes, Harry is depressed at times. The pressure, both external and self-imposed, seems to be more than Harry can handle once his normal release (Quidditch) is taken away.

Liz Mann - Nov 9, 2004 9:36 am (#1337 of 2971)

Clinical depression is not just caused by brain chemicals. There are several causes:

Biological - People with depression typically have too little or too much of certain brain chemicals, called "neurotransmitters." Changes in these brain chemicals may cause, or contribute to, clinical depression.
# Cognitive - People with negative thinking patterns - people who are pessimistic, have low self-esteem, worry too much or feel they have little control over life events - are more likely to develop clinical depression.
# Genetic - A family history of clinical depression increases the risk for developing the illness. However, clinical depression can also occur in people who have had no family members with depression.
# Situational - Difficult life events, including the death of a loved one, divorce, financial problems, moving to a new place or significant loss, can contribute to clinical depression.
# Co-occurring - Clinical depression is more likely to occur along with certain medical illnesses, such as stroke, heart disease, cancer, Parkinson's disease, Alzheimer's disease, diabetes and hormonal disorders. This is called "co-occurring depression." Co-occurring depression should be treated in addition to the physical illness. It is important that you report any depressive symptoms to your doctor.
# Medications - In addition, some medications for various medical illnesses can actually cause clinical depression. That's why it is also important to tell your doctor about all the medications you are taking.

Harry's could be caused by the second or fourth ones. Or both.

Ludicrous Patents Office - I know that men do suffer. But it is a fact that women are more than twice as likely as men to experience clinical depression.

Ludicrous Patents Office - Nov 11, 2004 8:42 am (#1338 of 2971)

I think Harry would definitely be suffering from situational depression. Hopefully it won't turn into a full blown depression.

Good point Liz. I wonder if women are diagnosed more frequently than men. LPO

Liz Mann - Nov 12, 2004 8:40 am (#1339 of 2971)

Yes, they are.

Liz Mann - Nov 12, 2004 11:43 am (#1340 of 2971)

I think I might have just found some evidence that Harry is not going to die. Accourding to Alivians.com, who sell Harry Potter-style wands, holly is, "the strongest of the protective woods and is the symbol of life, vitality and immortality. It is used to guard against evil, protects against lightning, and great for dream magic."

That's not to say I think he's going to become immortal, just that it might be a sign he won't die.

Steve Newton - Nov 19, 2004 6:28 am (#1341 of 2971)

Well, I had some thoughts in the middle of the night. This can be considered a warning to beware of total drivvle.

In POA Harry see's himself and thinks that it is his father. In OOTP Sirius seems to, on occasion, confuse Harry with James. WE are repeatedly told that Harry looks like his father. Harry's patronus is associated with his father.

Is it possible that Lily's 'ancient magic' transferred James essence(ghostliness?) into Harry when the AV curse hit?

Please feel extra allowed to ignore.

KWeldon - Nov 19, 2004 6:41 am (#1342 of 2971)

Other than their looks, though, what about Harry demonstrates the essence of James? Even Harry thought that at 15 he and James were totally different. Granted they both have a knack for mischief, but Harry's is usually some because of some well-intended purpose, wherein we're lead to believe James' mischief was pure entertainment.

Steve Newton - Nov 19, 2004 6:48 am (#1343 of 2971)

Well, the first time Harry got on a broom he seemed to instantly know how to fly. A trait in common with James.

Ron's the one who messes up his hair though. After his first good quidditch match.

Maybe there was more to what the marauders did than entertainment. Maybe not.

Solitaire - Nov 19, 2004 7:04 am (#1344 of 2971)

Wouldn't Lily have already been dead by the time Harry was hit by the attempted AK?

Steve Newton - Nov 19, 2004 7:08 am (#1345 of 2971)

Well, yes. But we know that her ancient magic worked. Harry and Lord V are still with us.

I think.

Ludicrous Patents Office - Nov 20, 2004 6:11 am (#1346 of 2971)

We know Lily's sacrifice impacts Harry. James sacrificed himself too. We do not know if it has magical consequences for Harry. LPO

Liz Mann - Nov 20, 2004 9:21 am (#1347 of 2971)

Other than their looks, though, what about Harry demonstrates the essence of James?

They are both talented Quiddich players, both have a knack for trouble, both slightly arrogant (as much as Harry tries to deny it), both despise the Dark Arts. I'm sure there's more that I can't think of at the moment.

KWeldon - Nov 20, 2004 11:19 am (#1348 of 2971)

They are both talented Quiddich players, both have a knack for trouble, both slightly arrogant (as much as Harry tries to deny it), both despise the Dark Arts.

There's no doubt that both James and Harry share these traits, you are right. I just don't know that they are uniquely James' to be passed on. I love the theory that Harry shares the essence of his father with him, but I do wonder if it is true and Harry finds this out, if he is going to have some serious identity issues, especially since at least some of Voldemort's traits are in Harry also.

MickeyCee3948 - Nov 20, 2004 1:14 pm (#1349 of 2971)

What about identical Patronus? Also have similar dislike of Snape although I don't think Harry's reason is the same as his fathers.

Mikie

haymoni - Nov 20, 2004 1:18 pm (#1350 of 2971)

Mickey - Harry's Patronus is a stag, but we don't know what form James's patronus is.

I don't think animagus form = patronus - or has JKR said that they do?

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MickeyCee3948 - Nov 20, 2004 1:44 pm (#1351 of 2971)

Oops, was thinking about Lupin telling Harry about Prongs at the end of PoA and got his animagus and patronus mixed up. Sorry about that, I would iron my hands but their so burnt right now, maybe I'll just beat my head on the wardrobe for an hour or so.

Mikie

Ann - Nov 20, 2004 4:42 pm (#1352 of 2971)

I think James is a part of Harry, but not through any particular magical transfer. He is, in some ways, his father's son. Obviously he is biologically. He has inherited his skills and his looks, and therefore has been subject to many of the same influences, and has tried to emulate him. His father is literally his patronus, of course, and also serves magically as the spirit that protects him. Dumbledore says as much at the end of PoA.

But, like most 15 year olds, Harry has in OotP had the opportunity to see his father from a slightly more adult (and hence less uncritical) viewpoint. I think the pensieve scene is a real masterpiece, in that Harry begins by looking at his father physically, and really reveling in their similarities. Here he is being a child, trying to be just like his father, happily measuring himself against his father as the ideal. Then, as he sees his father act, he sees things that he doesn't agree with, choices made that he would make differently, and (like many adolescents) he over-reacts, assuming for a while that his father is a horrible person, because he's so disappointed to find that he is merely human. Eventually, like most sons (and because James really does become a rather heroic figure later), Harry will learn to take a juster and more balanced view of him. (And he'll be one up on Snape when he does!)

Solitaire - Nov 20, 2004 4:46 pm (#1353 of 2971)

I'm curious about why Harry's Patronus assumed the form of a stag--or why anyone's Patronus (or animagus) assumes the form it does.

Could Harry's Patronus have assumed the shape it did because he heard his father's voice with the Dementor and was thinking about him? Could it be simply because he needed his dad so much just then?

I hope we find out more in book 6 about how one's Patronus and animagus forms are determined.

Solitaire

Edit: Sirius's big, bounding, loyal dog seems appropriate for him. James's stag would certainly have been physically impressive and quite beautiful. Peter's rat obviously is perfect for him! McGonagall's cat seems to suit her to a T, and Rita's beetle enabled her to eavesdrop rather unobtrusively when she wished--quite a boon for a reporter. Do people's animagi reflect their characters?

haymoni - Nov 20, 2004 4:46 pm (#1354 of 2971)

Yes - It only took Harry one memory to go through what most of us do in about 20 years. Admiration, embarrassment - he hasn't reached acceptance yet.

MickeyCee3948 - Nov 20, 2004 6:21 pm (#1355 of 2971)

I can remember when I came to the realization that my dad wasn't a perfect person it was a relatively easy step for me because I had all of the memories from before my revelation. I think it was harder for me to realize that my greatest hero who was John Kennedy was not perfect. "That" I never wanted to understand or accept.

I believe it is harder on Harry because he doesn't remember his dad and therefore has only the hero image and memories of the other members of the WW from which to judge. I believe it will be alot harder for Harry to accept.

Mikie

TomProffitt - Nov 21, 2004 4:07 am (#1356 of 2971)

Do people's animagi reflect their characters? --- Solitaire

Yes! I am positive that Jo has made it quite clear in chats or interviews or whatever.

haymoni - Nov 21, 2004 6:43 am (#1357 of 2971)

yes - the quote ended something like "Imagine putting in all that study and finding out that you become a warthog."

Hollywand - Nov 21, 2004 7:31 am (#1358 of 2971)

Harry's patronus is also a play on words: The Hart, another word for a stag.

Liz Mann - Nov 21, 2004 9:11 am (#1359 of 2971)

Here's a thought. Harry's Patronus is a stag, which presumably is because of how he always felt about his father, kind of being a hero and everything (because of what he remembered about his father trying to hold Voldemort off, and also all the things that people like Dumbledore had said about him). But now that he knows about James being arrogant and immature, and is perhaps less admiring of him, will his Patronus take on a different form the next time he conjures it?

Hollywand - Nov 21, 2004 10:21 am (#1360 of 2971)

Hi Liz, I guess I'm a bit of an optimist, but I'm hoping Harry sees James in another phase of his development that emphasizes that James develops compassion to win Lily and deepens his compassion when his son is born---and the patronus will remain a noble creature like the hart patronus.

Liz Mann - Nov 21, 2004 1:35 pm (#1361 of 2971)

I hope so too. But he might need to use the Patronus before then.

Solitaire - Nov 21, 2004 3:29 pm (#1362 of 2971)

I can't imagine one's Patronus form would change. I would think it, like the animagus, has something to do with the character of the person casting it ...

Steve Newton - Nov 21, 2004 5:17 pm (#1363 of 2971)

Does character change? Could Peter's animagus form change? (I think that there is a relationship between patronus and animagus.)

Archangel - Nov 21, 2004 10:17 pm (#1364 of 2971) Reply
Edited by Nov 21, 2004 10:21 pm

I think the animal form of an animagi can change over time. IMO, the form is up to the wizard's transfiguration/magical ability more than his character. Turning into an animagi requires extensive knowledge of transfiguration and probably lots of mental focus too so it'd be too draining for someone to try and alter their animal form that much.

As for the patronus form, I'm not so sure. The patronus acts as a guard, does it follow though that the form it takes is reflective of what the caster feels is the animal that best guards them or is just reflective of an inate trait of the caster?

Solitaire - Nov 21, 2004 11:02 pm (#1365 of 2971)

I don't think Harry "intended" his Patronus to be a stag. Why would he at that point? Remember the first time he successfully cast it on the Quidditch pitch: ... he whipped out his wand and roared, "Expecto Patronum!" Something silver-white, something enormous, erupted from the end of his wand. Of course, the "dementors" weren't real; they were Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle, and Marcus Flint.

Anyway, when he was being congratulated by his friends after catching the Snitch and winning the match ... "That was quite some Patronus," said a voice in Harry's ear. Harry turned around to see Professor Lupin, who looked both shaken and pleased.

Perhaps Remus was both shaken and pleased because Harry's Patronus was the image of James as Prongs. Remember that he had been startled to learn that Harry heard his dad's voice when he was training Harry with the Boggart Dementor.

The truth is that Harry didn't know anything about James being an animagus and his form at that time, so he certainly wouldn't have "chosen" a Patronus based on that. I think the form the Patronus assumes must be connected to the Wizard in some way. Maybe the Patronus and the animagus form choose the Wizard ... rather like his wand.

Solitaire

dizzy lizzy - Nov 21, 2004 11:06 pm (#1366 of 2971)

I think the wizard doesn't get much of a say in their patronus and animagus form at all. You summed it up nicely Solitaire.

Lizzy

Rosie - Nov 22, 2004 6:06 am (#1367 of 2971)

I just finished watching Prisoner of Azkaban and then The Return of the King on DVD. I could not but notice a similarity between Frodo and Harry. Both are 'processed' by an evil power that they manage to hold at bay, with help from friends; until the end in Frodo's case, when the ring manage to take him over at the place it was both the strongest and at its must vonderable (Mount Doom). At this point Gollum bites the ring off and falls over the edge, so destroying the ring by accident. I wonder if this may be a clue to what will happen in book 7. Any ideas?

TomProffitt - Nov 22, 2004 6:37 am (#1368 of 2971)

The Lord of the Rings is about duty, self-sacrifice for the common good, and defeating the evil within ourselves.

Harry Potter is more about growing responsibly into our place in society and the world.

The two works share many common elements in their moral views, but there is a difference in emphasis. Tolkien's work suggests that the individual must be ready to sacrifice themselves for society, Gandalf, Frodo, Aragorn, Arwen, Galadriel, and even Sam all make this sacrifice in some way. Conversely, Rowling's work is more about the responsibility of society in shaping itself, whether we see this in the positive ways of Dumbledore, Molly, and Lupin or in the negative examples of the Dursleys, Snape, Fudge and Umbridge.

The two works are opposites in this respect. Tolkein is the duty of the individual to the whole, Rowling the converse, the responsibility of society to mold itself and its children.

Just snooping - Nov 22, 2004 11:03 am (#1369 of 2971)

I did do a search in the Forum before placing this question. Does Harry have a life-debt to Snape since Snape has saved him a couple of times so far?

Do all those kids have life-debts with the Order members who showed up in the Ministry to save them from Death Eaters in OotP?

Does any witch or wizard have a life-debt with any Auror or Wizarding law-enforcement agent who saves them?

What about Healers? Does a wizard have a life-debt with a Healer who saves his life?

The question started with Potter, but sort of grew outward.

Just Snooping

Mrs Brisbee - Nov 22, 2004 12:41 pm (#1370 of 2971)

Just Snooping, I've idly thought about posting a similar question in the Peter Pettigrew thread, but it is a broad question so no idea where it would properly belong.

I would think that if Peter owes Harry a life debt, then it would surely apply in all the other cases you mentioned too. Harry didn't actually risk his life at all to stop Sirius and Lupin from killing Peter, he just asked them not to and they agreed.

I'm trying to remember all the times Snape has tried to save Harry, though my brain is a bit fuzzy from lack of sleep. At least one of them has to be good enough for a life debt. Harry definately owes Dumbledore three life debts--one for pulling Quirrel off him, another for rescuing him from Fake Moody, and the last from saving him from Voldemort at the end of OotP.

LooneyLuna - Nov 22, 2004 4:23 pm (#1371 of 2971)

Ginny and Arthur owe Harry their lives too. What about Neville or Ron? My brain is confuddled right now....have to think about it.

I don't know if Harry owes Snape a life debt or not. Did Harry stay on his broom due to Snape's countercurse or through his own sheer will. I say the latter. Just like Harry didn't drink the Veritaserum from Umbridge - even though Snape provided her with a fake potion - didn't matter because Harry didn't drink it anyway.

Czarina II - Nov 22, 2004 6:28 pm (#1372 of 2971)

I think there is a difference between the Peter Pettigrew and Harry Potter case and all the other cases.

In all the other situations, the rescuer saved the victim because it was the right thing to do. If I grabbed a curious child away from a rattlesnake, the child doesn't owe me a lifedebt because I SHOULD have saved him or her. It doesn't matter who the kid is, or who I am. I'm just saving a kid's life.

However, by all means of literature (and even our common sense), Harry SHOULD HAVE LET PETER DIE. This is the man who betrayed his parents, his godfather, and himself! Peter condemned them all to death. Harry should not have had any sympathy for him, but he did. He chose to save Peter because Sirius and Lupin's honour meant more to him than whether Peter lived or died.

The kid who happens to be playing near a rattlesnake does not deserve to die. Peter Pettigrew deserved to die for his crimes, although dying in prison would be more humane than coldblooded murder. Harry chose to save the man who chose to have him killed before, so that man owes him a lifedebt.

Everyone else just owes multiple debts of gratitude.

Mrs Brisbee - Nov 22, 2004 7:33 pm (#1373 of 2971)

Good points, Czarina II, especially about it being our duty to protect children. However, didn't Snape feel he owed James a life debt for saving him from Sirius's "joke"? Maybe there were more to it than we know about, but it seems James saved him because it was the right thing to do. Also one of Harry's stated reasons for saving Peter was to keep Lupin and Sirius from becoming murderers--which has nothing to do with sympathy for Peter. And condemning Peter to a slow tortured death in Azkaban doesn't sound more humane than cold blooded murder (though Peter did escape).

Under what circumstances does life debt occur? Maybe it does have something to do with going beyond one's duty to save someone. I do like the idea of healers being owed life debt by those they save though.

Solitaire - Nov 22, 2004 7:57 pm (#1374 of 2971)

I agree with Czarina on this one. What Harry did with regard to Peter was essentially "commute" his death sentence. I don't really think he did this for Peter, however, although the "whys" don't seem to matter. I think he did it for the reasons he said. He didn't want Sirius and Remus to become murderers. Sirius was already labeled a murderer, and Harry knew that Peter was the only one who could clear him.

The situation with Snape is different. As a teacher at Hogwarts, part of Snape's responsibilities certainly included watching over the safety of his students and seeing that they were not exposed to any unnecessary risks.

Snape might have gone to Dumbledore with his suspicions way back after the troll incident, but he apparently chose not to. Some may see this as noble, I am sure. I see it as rather foolish given what was at stake. And if Snape actually knew what Quirrell was up to and thought he could persuade him out of stealing the stone--it was also a bit arrogant. Snape, more than many others, should have known how difficult it would be for Quirrell to resist Voldemort's power. If he did indeed know the extent of Quirrell's involvement/possession (and we do not know this), he took a horrible risk that Voldemort would get the Sorcerer's Stone.

I think Hermione may owe Ron and Harry, because they did, indeed, step between her and death at the hand of the troll.

I do think we need to be careful about seeing a life debt every time one wizard comes to another's aid. They would never be paid, and we could never keep track! I think a life debt must involve a very unique circumstance. We already know that Peter owed Harry a life debt, but it certainly didn't stop him from following Voldemort's instructions to use Harry to bring him back to life.

It will be interesting to see whether the life debt is exacted by some "unseen force"--the hand of fate, perhaps--if the debtor refuses to step forth and cover it of his own volition. I think this is a very real possibility with Peter, who seems unable to take a stand on his own.

Solitaire

Ann - Nov 22, 2004 8:24 pm (#1375 of 2971)

It may be significant that the life debts we know about for sure (Peter to Harry and Snape to James) are between people who are otherwise adversaries. Yes, Ginny and Arthur may owe Harry, and Hermione may owe Harry and Ron, and the eight from the DA group may owe the Order members who came to save them, but in all those cases the people involved would probably do their very best to save the person they owe anyway. I think the significance of a life debt may be that to some extent, the debtor has to be unwilling to pay it. Based on that model, Harry may indeed owe Snape, but he doesn't owe Dumbledore a thing.

TomProffitt - Nov 22, 2004 8:28 pm (#1376 of 2971)

I think I have a different take on the life debt bit.

Really, what is the big deal about Harry having multiple life debts to Dumbledore? Is there any doubt that Harry would do the same for him? The trio indebted to each other? It's only natural.

The significance of the Wormtail life debt is not the life debt, but who it is between.

Solitaire - Nov 22, 2004 8:32 pm (#1377 of 2971)

I like that, Ann. It's interesting, too, that both James and Harry SAVE people the (Snape and Peter) they like least of all. That reminds me ... would Umbridge owe Dumbledore a life debt? I'm not sure anyone else would have bothered to save her.

Weeny Owl - Nov 23, 2004 12:20 am (#1378 of 2971)

While we can't always trust everything Hagrid says, it is obvious that what would kill a Muggle wouldn't necessarily kill someone from the Wizarding World. Hagrid was stunned that the Dursleys told Harry and Lily and James died in a car crash. If a car crash wouldn't kill them, why would falling from a broom kill Harry? Harry might have been severly injured, and it's possible, I suppose, that he might have died, but it isn't one hundred percent a given. I don't think Harry owes Snape a life debt for that.

Again, with the Department of Mysteries battle, while Lucius said it was okay to kill everyone but Harry, no one actually did try to kill the kids. There was a battle, but no one tried to Avada Kedavra any of them, although with Hermione's severe injuries, if she hadn't used the Silencio, she might have died. If that's the case, she owes herself a life debt.

Harry does owe Dumbledore a life debt, I would think, because Voldemort did try an Avada Kedavra.

septentrion - Nov 23, 2004 3:41 am (#1379 of 2971)

I think Harry owes Snape a life debt : maybe Harry's skills on a broom are enough to keep him on an unstable broomstick but Snape's countercurse allowed him to gain time. If Snape hadn't acted, Harry could have fallen well before the curse was stopped.

Steve Newton - Nov 23, 2004 6:19 am (#1380 of 2971)

Weeny, I thought that the DEs were trying to kill the kids. Just not until the Prophecy was out of the way. Whatever it was that got Hermione looks to me like it would have killed.

Since the scene in the Shrieking Shack when Harry was ready to kill Sirius it has seemed to me that there are other ways to kill without the AK. (Surprise that the stunners didn't kill McGonagall for instance.)

LooneyLuna - Nov 23, 2004 8:35 am (#1381 of 2971)

Well, there's always that entrail expelling curse. That's GOT to hurt. Smile

I do wonder if the "hand of fate" will intervene at the last moment so that Peter will end up saving Harry or one of Harry's friends, most likely losing his own life in the process. Dumbledore said (paraphrase), "There might come a time, Harry, when you'll be glad you spared Peter's life."

Weeny Owl - Nov 23, 2004 11:06 am (#1382 of 2971)

Weeny, I thought that the DEs were trying to kill the kids. Just not until the Prophecy was out of the way. Whatever it was that got Hermione looks to me like it would have killed.

I took it that the Death Eaters were after the Prophecy first, and if they killed someone along the way, that was fine, but their purpose wasn't specifically to kill anyone. They may have been allowed to kill those who got in their way, but their task was getting the Prophecy. As for Hermione, I think if she hadn't used the Silencio spell, she would have died, but since she is the one who used it, she doesn't owe anyone a life debt.

Since the scene in the Shrieking Shack when Harry was ready to kill Sirius it has seemed to me that there are other ways to kill without the AK. (Surprise that the stunners didn't kill McGonagall for instance.)

Yes, there would be other ways of killing someone without using an Avada Kedavra, but when the members of the Order appeared in the room with the veil, the only two kids in danger at that time were Harry and Neville. It's possible that Harry and Neville owe those Order members a life debt.

Then again, since five others went with Harry, could he owe them a life debt since he would have likely been killed if they hadn't been there?

This whole life debt thing is very confusing.

Mrs Brisbee - Nov 23, 2004 4:29 pm (#1383 of 2971)

This whole life debt thing is very confusing.--Weeny Owl

Yup.

Peter didn't try to help Harry in the graveyard, and I would have thought that if magic somehow compelled the debter to repay a life debt, then that would have been a good time for it to happen. It must be more complex than that. It looks like the debtor might get to choose whether or not they repay. I wonder what happens when they don't, especially when the opportunity arises and it's not taken.

It also seems likely that a life debt doesn't occur unless one wizard takes action that directly and immediately prevents another wizard from dying.

Steve Newton - Nov 23, 2004 5:05 pm (#1384 of 2971)

I thought that Peter made a mild attempt to help Harry. He said that the other (Cedric) would do.

Mrs Brisbee - Nov 23, 2004 7:42 pm (#1385 of 2971)

Peter tried to convince Voldemort that another wizard would do as well as Harry earlier, in the dream at the beginning of GoF. In the graveyard he does nothing to help Harry. Quite the contrary. And he is very pleased at the end because he gets his new hand, is back in Voldemort's good graces, and seems to have suffered no ill consequences for his treatment of Harry. Of course, there might be a reckoning. We have no concrete information on how this life debt thing really works. Snape apparently feels he owed James, whom he detested, something he never had a chance to repay, and so doggedly tries to protect Harry, whom he detests. Maybe if a wizard misses their chance to repay the one who saved them in the first place, the debt is transfered to someone important to the saving wizard?

MzWhizz123 - Nov 23, 2004 10:14 pm (#1386 of 2971)

You know, all this talk about life debts and their repayment makes me wonder about the Godric's Hollow situation. Maybe LV owed a debt to Lily somehow(I don't see how, but it COULD have been Harry, too I suppose).

If a wizard who owes a life debt choses to ignore it as LV did with Lily, I'm kind of thinking it could be transferred--maybe with a clever and powerful charm.

This, of couse, is a simple explaination for why Harry didn't die. And we know that nothing from Jo would be that easy. Alas!

Liz Mann - Nov 24, 2004 1:23 am (#1387 of 2971)

I think to create a life debt, one wizard has to save another one wizard directly in a situation where they don't have to.

James didn't have to save Snape, he did it because it was the right thing (as far as we know) and Harry certainly didn't have to save Pettigrew, he did it for moral reasons.

People who make a living saving lives wouldn't owe life debts because they're doing their job. It is the Order's job to fight against Voldemort so saving Harry and the others wouldn't create a life debt because it is their job to protect Harry.

Also, I don't think the person who was saved has to repay the debt, the magical contract will just ensure that they won't be able to rest unless they do.

Steve Newton - Nov 24, 2004 6:17 am (#1388 of 2971)

Liz, you must be right or, at least, close. Otherwise there would be hundreds of life debts flying around all over the place.

Liz Mann - Nov 24, 2004 8:30 am (#1389 of 2971)

Naturally I'm right.

Mrs Brisbee - Nov 24, 2004 12:47 pm (#1390 of 2971)

You know, all this talk about life debts and their repayment makes me wonder about the Godric's Hollow situation. Maybe LV owed a debt to Lily somehow(I don't see how, but it COULD have been Harry, too I suppose).

If a wizard who owes a life debt choses to ignore it as LV did with Lily, I'm kind of thinking it could be transferred--maybe with a clever and powerful charm. --MrWhizz123

Hey, that's a pretty cool idea. It would certainly explain why Voldemort didn't just AK Lily to start with. Though I can't for the life of me come up with a scenario where Lily would save Voldemort, unless Lily inheritted the life debt from someone else. Okay, now it's starting to sound far to complicated...

Liz Mann might be right, but I'm not sure if having hundreds of life debts flying around is any sort of problem, unless your an anti-social psychopathic murderer.

Steve Newton - Nov 24, 2004 1:30 pm (#1391 of 2971)

unless your an anti-social psychopathic murderer.

Like Lord V.

Mrs Brisbee - Nov 24, 2004 2:34 pm (#1392 of 2971)

Right. In which case it would be highly irritating to owe anybody anything.

TomProffitt - Nov 24, 2004 8:28 pm (#1393 of 2971)

I whole heartedly agree, Mrs Brisbee!

Potions Mistress - Nov 25, 2004 10:08 am (#1394 of 2971)

I think Liz is on to something when she says that life debts are probably created when one wizard saves another, but didn't have to--James/Snape, Harry/Peter, Hermione/baby-head DE(?). (BTW, for a more complete discussion on that last one, check out the Hermione thread.) That would certainly make the issue of whom owes who less complicated. However, what I'm still wondering about is how or even if the life-debt is paid, and possible consequences if it is not. There might be times where the situation never arises, or it is to late to repay the life debt (meaning that "defaulting" wasn't done on purpose, possibly with James and Snape), while there are other times when the debtor refuses to "pay the debt," like with Harry and Peter thus far. Hmm...things to ponder...

PS: Solitaire, I had to giggle about Umbridge owing DD a life debt, as he's the only way who would save her. :-)

~pm

Solitaire - Nov 25, 2004 9:49 pm (#1395 of 2971)

LOL PM! Can you imagine anyone else--even Fudge--doing it? I really cannot.

About the life-debts ... I hope that deliberately ignoring it or failing to repay it (Peter in the graveyard, for example) carries some consequences for the defaulter. I said earlier that I wonder if this is where the "hand of fate" might not "take a hand" in things. If there truly is something to a life-debt, then it could happen.

Solitaire

Mrs Brisbee - Nov 27, 2004 6:51 am (#1396 of 2971)

Maybe you don't need to go out of your way to repay a life debt, only to take the opportunity if it arises. So if your savior never needs your help, no goblin life debt collection squad will come round to break your legs.

Potions Mistress - Nov 27, 2004 8:38 am (#1397 of 2971)

LOL, Mrs Brisbee! Goblin life debt collection squad goons. Hee hee!

~pm

Solitaire - Nov 27, 2004 8:56 am (#1398 of 2971)

Well, I'd say that Wormtail certainly missed the opportunity of a lifetime in the graveyard. If ever there were a case for the life-debt collection goon squad--assuming one existed--he would be it! If I were Peter, I'd watch my tail ... in more ways than one!

Solitaire

Steve Newton - Nov 27, 2004 3:59 pm (#1399 of 2971)

I searched this thread and didn't find any mention of runes. Harry's scar is related to ancient magic. Hermione is studying ancient runes. Could the scar be some sort of rune?

Apologies if this has been discussed and I missed it. JKR is quoted somewhere saying something about the scar but I can't remember what. I haven't figured out how to search her interviews.

Hollywand - Nov 27, 2004 4:16 pm (#1400 of 2971)

Hi Steve, the rune question has been discussed quite a bit on the alchemy link.

A focused search within that discussion will bring up the posts. Wonderful details on runes, Hermione's mistakes as a key pun of Yew and Horse.

Zelmia is our resident runemiester.

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Steve Newton - Nov 27, 2004 8:29 pm (#1401 of 2971)

Thanks Hollywand. I had searched only this thread.

Ann - Nov 28, 2004 6:36 am (#1402 of 2971)

Steve, I think JKR said that it was not the shape of Harry's scar that was important--in a way that implied that something else was. Perhaps color or placement, or simply the effect it has on him. This has been discussed on "The Lightning Bolt Scar" thread, listed under "Potter-Pouri," too.

Steve Newton - Nov 28, 2004 6:58 am (#1403 of 2971)

Ann, thanks. If its not the shape that is important then I don't see how the scar could be a rune.

Ann - Nov 28, 2004 7:23 am (#1404 of 2971)

I found the quote:

Cathedral: Don't want to rune the ending, but will we be finding out more about the significance of the shape of Harry's scar in future books?
JK Rowling: The shape is not the most significant aspect of that scar, and that's all I'm going to say!

Not the most significant, but I suppose it could still be significant. (I've wondered about the "rune" in the question--is it just a typo for "ruin" or is someone trying to be clever?)

T Brightwater - Nov 29, 2004 7:29 am (#1405 of 2971)

I've just started a thread on Life Debts, since any discussion of them seems to extend over several characters.

When Harry starts punching Draco after the first Quidditch match in OotP, is that the first time he has reacted to a taunt with physical violence? I seem to recall that before that, he had mostly intervened to try and stop others from fighting.

mooncalf - Nov 29, 2004 9:04 am (#1406 of 2971)

I think that you are right, Brightwater, assuming that we are not counting the times that he and Malfoy exchange curses. But Harry is so angry throughout this book, that it is not too surprising that he snapped in that situation. I hope that he has himself under better control in the next book!

Liz Mann - Nov 29, 2004 10:27 am (#1407 of 2971)

Definately, because a person who has a lot of anger inside them is fair game for the villains. They let their guard down easily when taunted. I think Harry will definately have to do something about his temper. Even if he manages to survive Voldemort, it could hinder him when becoming an Auror, because they do personality tests. That is if Harry doesn't give up the Auror idea to become a professional Quiddich player. In fact actually, I'm surprised that option hasn't even occured to him before.

T Brightwater - Nov 29, 2004 2:55 pm (#1408 of 2971)

What struck me about that scene in OotP is that for once we see Harry acting like Dudley.

Liz Mann - Nov 29, 2004 4:41 pm (#1409 of 2971)

Yes, Harry was a bit of a hypocrite several times in the fifth book. Taunting Dudley, thinking that he can't imagine Fred and George doing something as horrible to someone as James and Sirius did to Snape, but then adding "well, maybe Malfoy or someone who really deserved it".

Ludicrous Patents Office - Nov 29, 2004 6:58 pm (#1410 of 2971)

I think part of Harry's reaction to what his dad did was feeling sorry for Snape. Harry isn't used to feeling that way about Snape. LPO

Potions Mistress - Nov 29, 2004 7:07 pm (#1411 of 2971)

I also think that stems from Harry seeing James and Snape in a very different light--James as the jerk, Snape as the victim, and most importantly, Snape's hatred for James doesn't necessarily come from petty jealousy.

~pm

Ann - Nov 29, 2004 7:36 pm (#1412 of 2971)

Good point, Potions Mistress! I think most adult readers will have assumed well before the pensieve scene that there was probably some provocation on James & Sirius's part that kept Snape going after them, but it's true that all Harry has heard is that Snape was a git and that he was jealous of James. He probably believed that.

Potions Mistress - Nov 29, 2004 8:00 pm (#1413 of 2971)

Very true, Ann. He's told that from Day one in the WW his father was the greatest thing since sliced bread. He never heard anything different, other from Snape, and the aminosity between them (Harry and Snape) certainly didn't make Harry willing or even able to believe a word Snape said about his father. I think the Pensieve scene was a wake-up call to Harry--that his dad was not perfect, but in fact human, with flaws and the ability to act like a stupid git. So, lo and behold, Snape was right! Harry was forced to see both these men in a totally different light. I wonder how this will affect his relationship with Snape and how he will reconcile this real view of his dad and the "golden boy" he previously held.

~pm

Solitaire - Nov 29, 2004 10:52 pm (#1414 of 2971)

I think we need to back up the broom here, PM! I am not saying James didn't act like a stupid git in the Pensieve scene. He did. But it was one scene and one incident, and I don't think we should just assume that "low and behold, Snape was right!" Snape may have been correct about James being arrogant in that scene, but carrying it farther to assume Snape was right in general about James is really jumping the gun.

Let us not forget that Snape himself is more than a bit arrogant, and we have seen plenty of instances of his cruelty. I don't believe we should grant blanket acceptance to any of his character analyses of others, until there is a lot more proof. After all, this is Snape's Pensieve. James's Pensieve might tell a somewhat different story of the same event, were we to have the privilege of snooping in it.

Solitaire

MickeyCee3948 - Nov 30, 2004 11:45 am (#1415 of 2971)

I agree with you whole heartedly Solitaire. Yes James may have been a silly, stupid git occasionally aren't we all. We certainly don't see Snape acknowledging that James saved his life later when he stopped the potential attack by Remus.

However, I believe that Harry's feelings with Snape after OotP will have to be resolved. Remember at the end of the book he still was blaming Snape for Sirius's death.

Mikie

mooncalf - Nov 30, 2004 12:07 pm (#1416 of 2971) Reply
Edited by Nov 30, 2004 12:09 pm

I agree with you, Mikie, and I think that it will happen.

At the end of the book Harry was in terrible pain from Sirius' Death. It is difficult to be rational when you are in that much pain - he doesn't normally throw people's things around. One of the early stages of grief is anger, and we saw a lot of that. It's quite understandable that in that condition, he vented his anger on somebody he hates: Snape. I don't expect him to go up to Snape with an apology and a big hug, but by the very end of the book, after he has talked to Luna, he has already begun to return to his normal, rational self.

He needs to do some healing, and then he will see things more clearly. I think that part of the reason Sirius had to die was to help Harry to grow up. And I think that he will be at Privet Drive long enough to think things over and come to a more rational understanding of what happened.

MickeyCee3948 - Nov 30, 2004 12:10 pm (#1417 of 2971)

Mooncalf I hope your right but I agree with someone on one of the other threads. The pace of the books is going to pick up alot faster than in the past and time to heal could be very short.

Mikie

mooncalf - Nov 30, 2004 12:19 pm (#1418 of 2971)

Yes, that's true. But I think that Harry generally manages to keep pace. Throughout OotP he was ruled by his emotions; I would like to think that he has learned his lesson, will overcome it all, and will be more rational now that the war has really started.

At least I hope so. I'm always an optimist. :-)

Liz Mann - Nov 30, 2004 2:29 pm (#1419 of 2971)

I think we can safely assume that James was a git outside that one scene. From what Lily said James acted like that all the time. He was a bully and more than a little arrogant. But despite that he wasn't a bad person, just like the Weasley twins have no respect for the law but aren't bad people. James detested the Dark Arts, was extremely angry when Snape called Lily a Mudblood and as far as we know was loyal to his friends. And he outgrew his arrogant phase.

Snape on the other hand has not grown out of the way he was as a teenager. He may be on the right side but he is still a bully, unable to move on from his conflict with James and punishes Harry for what his father did. I don't think Harry is going to be able to be civil to Snape until Snape is able to be civil to him. And that will be a long time from the way things are going at the moment.

Solitaire - Nov 30, 2004 4:51 pm (#1420 of 2971)

Liz, this was still one scene, and Lily was angry, as well. James was a bully in that scene, and it is quite possible that Lily was reacting to his behavior there.

Lupin--who seems to have been established in the books as someone who is trustworthy--says Snape never lost an opportunity to hex James, and James couldn't be expected to just take that lying down. I don't have a book handy, but I believe it was during the conversation Harry had with Remus and Sirius the first time he (successfully) used Umbridge's fire to contact Sirius--the chapter where Fred & George leave Hogwarts.

My point, once again, is that this is still only one scene, and even though Lily was angry about what happened, I do not think we should automatically assume that this was James's usual mode of behavior. Even if it was how he behaved at age 15, it was not the way he behaved forever. Also, we should not forget that this was a time when Snape was sufficiently involved in the Dark Arts--and with those who practiced them--that he joined the DEs following Hogwarts.

Solitaire

Ludicrous Patents Office - Nov 30, 2004 6:57 pm (#1421 of 2971)

I think James grew up. It happens to the best of us. When someone dies we tend to think about the good things about them. James grew into a good person so that is what people remember. Snape was the exception because of the animosity between them. Harry already learned to not trust Snape because of his cruelty. When it comes down to life and death Snape helps Harry. That is as difficult for Harry to accept as for Snape to accept James' help. LPO

Paulus Maximus - Nov 30, 2004 9:25 pm (#1422 of 2971)

Even if it was how he behaved at age 15, it was not the way he behaved forever.

No, indeed. I find it hard to believe that the James whom we saw in Snape's memory could have possibly found the nerve and the moral fiber to pull Snape away from the Shrieking Shack...

Rosie - Dec 1, 2004 3:20 am (#1423 of 2971)

All that stuff about Harry becomong 'nastier', is this the affect of Voldemort, with whom we know he has a connection? This is becoming more and more like the Ring's effects on Frodo; will Harry be able to throw off V's affect on him or is someone else going to have to help him (and who and how)?

Potions Mistress - Dec 1, 2004 6:34 am (#1424 of 2971)

Thank you Liz! You stated that much better than I did. I keep forgetting that the internet isn't that great of a place to practice Legilimency and that you all can't read my mind! ;-)

Let me clarify my stance concerning how Harry now views James and Snape. Growing up with the Dursleys, Harry had very little info. about James (and Lily) and what he did have was all negative. But, he wasn't overly fond of the Dursleys, so it was easier to ignore it. Also, I don't think we have seen any evidence thus far that James did anything truly horrible to the Dursleys.

But, when Harry joined the WW at age 11, the only negative things he heard were coming from Snape--whom Harry also didn't like and thus found it easier to ignore as well. However, we do know that James (and Sirius) pulled some nasty stuff with Snape. This is not say that Snape's hands are clean in any way--he made his fair share of contributions to the feud. Yet I don't believe the pensieve was just one scene of James acting like a git toward Snape. I doubt that either one missed an opportunity to further the feud.

What the penseive scene means to Harry is that he now sees both James and Snape in a different light. James was not necessarily the hero that most of the other people saw him and Snape was not necessarily the antagonizer (in this scene) that I think Harry believed him to be. Hopefully, Harry will come to understand that indeed, James did mature and got over the feud (as exemplified by saving Snape), while Snape is still emotionally stunted and nursing that decades old grudge. I think we're going to see that play out in HBP. All right, I hope this makes more sense. Sorry for such the long post.

~pm

wwtMask - Dec 1, 2004 7:09 am (#1425 of 2971)

One thing that always bothered me about Snape's Worst Memory was the fact that Harry took it to be the absolutely accurate version of what happened. I'm not saying that it didn't happen more or less that way, but it was a memory that was more than 15 years old and, in that time, it has more than likely been colored by Snape's experience, and his brooding over the incident, and loss of detail as time has gone on. Assuming the pensieve actually hold and plays the memory as the person knows it, that would put the entire scene into a little bit of doubt. After all, Snape had no reason to be fair or objective with regards to the Marauders and he certainly would have been less so with this particular memory. I think that the incident definitely did happen but Snape's view of it is skewed and, thus, it is a bit naive of Harry to take it as unbiased truth.

rambkowalczyk - Dec 1, 2004 7:25 am (#1426 of 2971)

Unfortunately it doesn't state in the books as to whether the pensieve scenes are a true re-creation of events or whether it depends on the person who remembers it. I've always assumed that since magic was involved it can be regarded as objectively true.

Solitaire - Dec 1, 2004 7:41 am (#1427 of 2971)

PM: I don't believe the pensieve was just one scene of James acting like a git toward Snape

I assume you mean you don't think James's behavior was limited to that one scene only, because it was just one scene.

As to the Pensieve being absolutely true, perhaps it is. But since we know from Remus that Snape never missed an opportunity to hex James, has Snape perhaps "edited" his role in anything that happened that afternoon? In fact, has Snape perhaps edited all of his own contributions to the feud from his own memory? I've said before that I have a couple of relatives who are masters at "reshaping" history ... and I am not overstating the case when I call them masters!

Solitaire

mooncalf - Dec 1, 2004 9:05 am (#1428 of 2971) Reply
Edited by Dec 1, 2004 9:06 am

I would also assume that the scenes we saw in the pensieve are objective, primarily because we saw a great deal in the pensieve, such as the conversation between the Marauders after the exam, that Snape would never have seen. I get the feeling that going into the pensieve takes one back to a certain place and time, rather than just playing a memory as though it were film. If the latter were true, Harry would have seen only what Snape saw, and not been able to move around so as to see what was of most interest to him.

Solitaire - Dec 1, 2004 11:06 am (#1429 of 2971)

Mooncalf, since this is Snape's memory, he must have overheard that conversation. I got the distinct impression from the text of that chapter that Snape was eavesdropping on the Marauders' conversation. Remember Sirius said that he was always following them around and eavesdropping on them, trying to get them expelled. If he overheard what they were talking about that day, there were certainly plenty of hints dropped about the fact that Remus was a werewolf and the other three were animagi. They even used their werewolf and animagi names on each other pretty freely.

Solitaire

Paulus Maximus - Dec 1, 2004 12:44 pm (#1430 of 2971)

But if Snape knew in advance that Lupin was a werewolf, why would he so blindly follow Sirius' advice and risk his own life?

MickeyCee3948 - Dec 1, 2004 1:16 pm (#1431 of 2971)

I believe that the memories in the pensieve are how Snape perceived them, not necessary canon for the actual events. If any 2 people look at the same event they will each have different views of what happen. I believe that Snape's memories of the event where James saved him would be slanted aganist James. He has already expressed as much to Harry.

Mikie

rambkowalczyk - Dec 1, 2004 1:41 pm (#1432 of 2971) Reply
Edited by megfox Dec 15, 2004 1:42 pm

Solitaire, I don't think that Snape overheard the mauraders-see Paulus Maximus comment. I do however think he may have trying to eavesdrop. Harry wasn't really paying any attention to Snape as he was distracted by his father's presence.

Snape followed, still poring over the paper and apparently with no fixed idea of where he was going. my italics

They sit by the lake. Harry only looks over his shoulder to see Snape "as deeply immersed in the O.W.L. paper"... Perhaps if Harry looked more often he would have seen Snape trying to spy on the marauders.

The James says to Sirius "Look who it is" Sirius head turned. He had become very still, like a dog that has scented a rabbit. "Excellent," he said softly. "Snivellus" Harry turned to see what Sirius was looking at. Snape was on his feet again, and was stowing the O.W.L. paper in his bag.

At this point did Snape know James was talking about him and decided to discreetly leave?

As Snape leaves James calls out "All right Snivellus" Snape reacted so fast it was as though he had been expecting an attack.

Since this is the Harry thread there is no need to comment on what Snape was actually thinking but if Harry were watching Snape closely he may have saw different things that might explain why James did what he did.

mooncalf - Dec 1, 2004 2:00 pm (#1433 of 2971)

Good point. In that memory we see only what Harry is looking at; we don't know what Snape was doing while Harry was following his father. But I never got the impression from that scene that Snape was eavesdropping on the Marauders, although Sirius, does indicate that that was Snape's habit. I had always assumed that Snape really was involved in his exam, and doing a Hermoine by reviewing it afterwards.

During the exam, Snape was clearly engrossed in what he was doing. So if this was only his view of the event, how do we account for Harry's view of the exam room? How could he have seen, for example, Sirius giving James the thumbs up, or that girl giving Sirius the eye, if all we see is what Snape remembers? He didn't see those things because he was busy writing everything he could remember on to his exam parchment.

Potions Mistress - Dec 1, 2004 2:44 pm (#1434 of 2971)

Because we see the whole OWL exam scene: the room, the flirting, etc., etc., I do wonder if the Pensieve presents memories in an objective manner--that they are viewed without the "coloring" of the "rememberer" (sorry, that's not a real word!). Or, if it is shown how the person saw things happening, with their own biases,etc. Hmm...now that's going to bug me whenever I read a Pensieve scene. How is the person remembering all this? How will that affect the person (whomever it is) viewing the memory?

~pm

TomProffitt - Dec 1, 2004 3:09 pm (#1435 of 2971)

I think it reasonable to assume that Harry was able to witness things in the pensieve that Snape could not have been aware of. For example people sitting behind Snape working on their exam papers.

How were they then added to the pensieve? Does the magic extrapolate from Snape's memory and knowledge to have the people working diligently at their papers or sneaking glances at another's paper? Or do these details come from truth?

I don't see how we can know the answer to this until Jo tells us.

Right now my inclination is towards the truth as opposed to the perception. Would Snape have noticed Lily's "furious expression had twitched for an instant as though she was going to smile ..." whilst hanging upside? Is it really the kind of thing his memory would add?

I doubt the version we have seen has been much doctored by the Potion Master.

Liz Mann - Dec 1, 2004 3:44 pm (#1436 of 2971)

I think it reasonable to assume that Harry was able to witness things in the pensieve that Snape could not have been aware of. For example people sitting behind Snape working on their exam papers.

He could have looked around earlier in the exam to see where everyone was sitting. I do that in exams.

Do we remember events exactly how they happen? No. Can how we were feeling at the time of the event affect how we remember it? Yes. Could Snape have remembered James as being nastier than he really was as far as tone of voice and the exact wording of what he said goes? Yes. A penseive is a place to store a person's memories. I don't think somehow that the penseive is going to correct any little mistakes in the way the event was remembered. It makes sense that what appears in the Penseive is the way the person remembers it.

Would Snape have noticed Lily's "furious expression had twitched for an instant as though she was going to smile ..." whilst hanging upside? Is it really the kind of thing his memory would add?

Possibly, or J.K. might not be thinking in that much detail. If he hated Lily too (makes sense seeing as she's Muggle born and he obviously has a problem with that because he called her Mudblood), and what with Lily later marrying Snape's arch enemy, he might think back on the event and remember that little detail or his mind may invent it because he wants to believe it. It's the way the human brain works.

Harry wasn't watching Snape when he saw his dad and Sirius and everybody reacting to each other in the exam. For all we know Snape could have been watching too.

The One - Dec 1, 2004 3:56 pm (#1437 of 2971)

I tend to disagree. Dumbledore uses the penisieve as a means to reconstruct the prophesy "exactly". This indicates that the penesive is a magic device that is reliable.

To me, there is nothing in Lilly's reactions in the penisieve scene, or in Sirius' or Remus' reactions when told about it that indicates that the situation was not typical for James at age 15. Apparently he had changed by his 7th year.

LooneyLuna - Dec 1, 2004 4:13 pm (#1438 of 2971)

In the Muggle world, the eyes take in way more than the brain can process coherently. Our eyes see things that our brain doesn't acknowledge. Perhaps this is the secret of the Pensieve. It is Snape's or Dumbledore's memory, but it is everything that is seen and not necessarily remembered on a conscious level. Which is why the Pensieve is such a useful tool.

Sorry for the intrusion....

T Brightwater - Dec 1, 2004 4:27 pm (#1439 of 2971)

Very good point, LooneyLuna. If the Pensieve preserves everything that the senses take in, whether consciously remembered or not, it is a very useful tool indeed. I suspect Dumbledore uses this aspect of the Pensieve quite a lot.

Snape probably didn't _consciously_ hear the Marauders' conversation (or he'd have known Remus was a werewolf) but his ears picked it up and it registered subconsciously. Since Harry was more interested in his father than Snape, he chose to follow the background line of conversation even though Snape's own focus was on his exam paper.

TomProffitt - Dec 1, 2004 4:57 pm (#1440 of 2971)

If it's based on unconscious memory, that implies that it is truth as opposed to memory as Snape wants to remember it.

We certainly have no way of knowing for certain, but it seems more likely we are seeing actual events and not Snape influenced events.

Hollywand - Dec 1, 2004 5:05 pm (#1441 of 2971)

I agree, Looney and Brightwater, with your conceptual comments about the Pensieve.

Perhaps it captures a snippet of the past in real time rather than a biased memory. It's more akin to a Time Turner.

This concept seems to fit with Rowling's concept as she reconstructs a past event, yet interjects Harry so he can assemble bits of the past for his own personal development.

What's also interesting, I had not considered this before, is that Snape didn't remove the memory of James saving him that we know from Rowling's description. One would think that Snape's near death experience from werewolf attack, saved by the silver hart stag would trump the underpants incident.

Snape isn't sure what he will be getting into with Potter and his powers, so takes extra precautions against Harry's powers, even though he's known to be such an accomplished Occlumens. Hmmm.

TomProffitt - Dec 1, 2004 5:12 pm (#1442 of 2971)

I had not considered this before, is that Snape didn't remove the memory of James saving him that we know from Rowling's description. --- Hollywand

Do you mean to say we don't know if this memory was in the pensieve or not? I would think it would be there, after all, Harry didn't have enough time to look at everything there.

LooneyLuna - Dec 1, 2004 5:12 pm (#1443 of 2971)

I was also thinking that *eyewitness* accounts in the Muggle world are often wrong. We *witness* things that didn't happen or did not happen the way we remember. I'm thinking of criminal trials where a person is accused wrongly, but a witness is absolutely sure that it was them. DNA evidence or some other evidence clears them - the witness still thinks it was that person who perpetrated the crime.

Which, brings us back to square one with Snape's worst memory. Did Harry witness events that actually happened, Snape's version of the events, or some omnipotent version.

Hopefully, JKR will clue us in. When's the next question poll?

Potions Mistress - Dec 1, 2004 5:38 pm (#1444 of 2971)

Just to let everyone know, I posted the question of how the Pensieve works over on the Snape thread too.

~pm

Hollywand - Dec 1, 2004 5:48 pm (#1445 of 2971)

Tom, to reply directly to your question: The chapter is titled "Snape's Worst Memory", so the reader would think that the worst is being shown. And so my remark about the near death experience perhaps would trump the underpants incident.

One would also think that Snape would not want Harry to see many of his Death Eater experiences, and the pivotal question about which side he belongs to much worse than the underpants incident.

Alas, earwax, I fear I grow too pragmatic, witch cannot be applied to our magical story.....too limiting.....

Paulus Maximus - Dec 1, 2004 6:45 pm (#1446 of 2971)

With the prophecy, Dumbledore himself said that HE recalled it perfectly, which implies that the Pensieve did not reconstruct the memory for him.

I see no further reason to suppose that the Pensieve reconstructed Snape's memory than that it had reconstructed Dumbledore's.

vball man - Dec 1, 2004 8:25 pm (#1447 of 2971)

Great points, everyone. I was reading this latest batch of posts and the answer struck me!
The pensieve is magic. It is doing things that can't be done.

I would mention that I've wondered about how exactly the prophecy memory was displayed. Those elipses (...) could indicate pauses or parts left out. Not likely, but possible.

Ann - Dec 1, 2004 8:29 pm (#1448 of 2971)

Paulus: What he says is "the prophecy was made to somebody, and that person has the means of recalling it perfectly."

Not that he recalled it perfectly, but that he has the means of doing so.

I think the pensieve is that means. It allowed him to extract that particular memory immediately after the event and insure that it was never distorted or corrupted (though he does seem to store it in his head when he's not pensieve-ing it). But I agree with you that the pensieve doesn't really reconstruct memories. They seem to be extremely accurate representations of events. (As Dumbledore says, they recall things "perfectly."

Vball man: We get the elipses in Trelawney's other, non-pensieve prophecy, too, the one in PoA. And JKR seems to use elipses frequently in her writing to express natural pauses in conversation. I don't think they can omit a real omission.

Solitaire - Dec 1, 2004 9:26 pm (#1449 of 2971)

Tom: I don't see how we can know the answer to this until Jo tells us.

I will agree with this statement.

Ann: I think the pensieve is that means. It allowed him to extract that particular memory immediately after the event and insure that it was never distorted or corrupted (though he does seem to store it in his head when he's not pensieve-ing it).

It seems to me that Dumbledore and Snape both "pull" memories out and put them into the Pensieve many years after they actually occurred. If this particular memory has been sitting in Snape's brain, being nursed and dwelt upon, it is certainly nice and raw.

Or are you suggesting that Snape immediately removed this memory and has been keeping it in the Pensieve all of these years? (I may have misunderstood you up above.) If this is so and he has kept a perfect memory in the Pensieve all these years, why would he pull it out again and stick it in the Pensieve? If it was to keep Harry from seeing it in his mind, well, it still seemed to remain in his mind. This does not make sense to me. I think I must stick with what Tom said earlier ... about waiting till JKR explains it.

Also, others have suggested in the past that this is Dumbledore's Pensieve that Snape has borrowed. Would he be storing memories in Dumbledore's Pensieve over the long term? Wouldn't that get kind of confusing--not to mention risky to one's memories?

Solitaire

LooneyLuna - Dec 2, 2004 5:45 am (#1450 of 2971)

Solitaire - I think the Pensieve is used as temporary storage. All memories go back into the head once you're done.

Just my two knuts. Smile

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MickeyCee3948 - Dec 2, 2004 7:47 am (#1451 of 2971)

Solitaire how do we know that the memory that Harry saw was the one that Snape pulled from his head in the presence of Harry. He pulled several threads out and this could have been one of those or it could have been stored there for a longer period.

Mikie

Potions Mistress - Dec 2, 2004 11:09 am (#1452 of 2971)

I think you're right, LooneyLuna--didn't DD say in GoF that he uses the Pensieve when his "gets too full," and he uses it to examine those memories?

~pm

Steve Newton - Dec 2, 2004 11:38 am (#1453 of 2971)

I think that he said that he used it to organize his thoughts and see connections.

StareyedSlytherin - Dec 4, 2004 6:56 pm (#1454 of 2971)

I tend to agree with what someone said above, about it taking everything that would have entered a person's mind, not just the things that person was focused on at the moment. That could allow Harry to see things that Snape had filtered out, and it could also allow Dumbledore to examine his memories and find connections that he probably would have never knew existed if he hadn't been able to seperate that memory from himself and look at it from an outsider's viewpoint. I think it just gives a different perspective on what's going on, so that maybe later on, the person can come back and explore the memory a bit and find what they may have missed earlier on.

MickeyCee3948 - Dec 5, 2004 2:44 pm (#1455 of 2971)

To change the subject just a little from the pensieve. I have just finished reading POA for the umtheenth time. I noticed that at the beginning of the book where Harry puts the charm on Aunt Marge he didn't need a wand. It also occurred to me that the MOM did not make a mention of Harry breaking the wine glass. Was that Petunia or did old Marge just squeeze to hard on the glass? How many other wizards or witches have we seen that can think of a charm and curse and invoke it without a wand or even speaking the spell aloud? The only one I can think of was Kingley who put the memory charm on Marietta. Any one else come to mind?

Mikie

Potions Mistress - Dec 5, 2004 4:08 pm (#1456 of 2971)

Mikie, I know there's discussions on the Forum concerning wandless magic, but I just don't remember where. If you do a search, you might be able to read some posts about it.

I think that as far as wandless magic goes in Harry's case, it comes about at highly emotionally charged times: breaking Marge's glass (which I think he did, but she thought it was just her strength), then blowing her up. There's also mention of it in SS/PS: finding himself up on the school roof trying to get away from Dudley comes immediately come to mind (this takes place in his conversation in his first meeting with Hagrid, sorry don't have the book with me).

As far as controlled wandless magic, I think that is a difficult task to pull off, hence the lucrative wand trade in the WW, which are used to "focus" that magic. I'm sure DD and LV could easily do controlled "wandless" magic, but they're the only ones who I can think of at the moment.

~pm

TomProffitt - Dec 6, 2004 4:52 am (#1457 of 2971)

Mikie, we do know of a few things that are wandless magic. The animagus transformation appears to be one such example. The transformation from animal back to human is definitely wandless magic, even if the converse is not true.

Using floo powder, apparating, making potions, using a port key, giving prophecy, are all examples of magic done with out the wand. I would imagine some things are easier to do than others without a wand, just as some witches and wizards would have an easier time of it than others.

Oh, and Petunia & the wine glass has been discussed extensively somewhere, the Petunia thread I think.

Liz Mann - Dec 6, 2004 6:54 am (#1458 of 2971)

I think the wine glass wasn't mentioned at the hearing because maybe it was too small a piece of magic to be punished. The thing about the hover charm Dobby used, the Patronus, and blowing Aunt Marge up is that they are all blatent uses of magic that, if a Muggle should see, they wouldn't be able to explain away.

Hollywand - Dec 6, 2004 8:10 am (#1459 of 2971)

An interesting connection to Harry's magic rage response:

When Marge zeros in on insulting Harry's mother, he explodes.

When Draco insults his mother and Molly after his last Quidditch match, Harry crossed another line and physically punched Draco.

Hmmm.

Paulus Maximus - Dec 6, 2004 8:47 am (#1460 of 2971)

A muggle would DEFINITELY notice a glowing wand in the dark (or, for that matter, anything glowing in the dark), and yet the Lumos spell that Harry cast before he cast the Patronus was not brought up at the trial...

T Brightwater - Dec 6, 2004 10:09 am (#1461 of 2971)

Hollywand, good point - Harry is very sensitive about his parents. He really blew up at Snape in PoA when Snape started maligning James. Also, the only other time I remember Harry resorting to physical violence was against Sirius, when he still thought he had betrayed his parents.

wwtMask - Dec 6, 2004 10:15 am (#1462 of 2971)

Paulus, I think most are in agreement that Lumos is such a basic spell that it could be built in to each wand or is so small that it wasn't worth mentioning at the trial (imagine them trying to expel him for casting a spell that would make his wand look like a flashlight to a muggle!).

It's funny Harry is sensitive enough about his parents to get angry and hit people but he's hardly been interested enough to get more than some basic information about them. I know this is supposed to be addressed next book, but it makes me wonder how JKR will explain that away.

T Brightwater - Dec 6, 2004 10:31 am (#1463 of 2971)

I wonder if Harry isn't a little bit afraid of finding out more about his parents - especially now, after seeing Snape's Pensieve memory. His image of them as good, noble, self-sacrificing people has been at least somewhat of a comfort to him, and we saw how shaken he was when he saw his father in a different light.

mooncalf - Dec 6, 2004 11:11 am (#1464 of 2971)

I don't think Harry was afraid of what he would learn, until he saw Snape's memory in the pensieve. Every adult that Harry likes and trusts has told him nothing but good things about his parents. That is why it was such a shock for him to find that there was truth in what Snape had been telling him about his father all along. As you suggest, Brightwater, I think that Harry had tremendous faith in the goodness of his parents; I think it was something he clung to during his years of misery with the Dursleys. There wasn't much else he could hold on to.

As to why he hasn't asked more questions about his parents, I think that we'll have to be content with the explanation that the Dursleys conditioned him not to ask questions.

MickeyCee3948 - Dec 6, 2004 11:23 am (#1465 of 2971)

A fifteen year old will normally bear very little resemblance to the adult they will become. We must assume but it appears that James(the adult)turned into a respected wizard, a good father to Harry and a good husband to Lily.

Harry needs to forgive the impulsiveness and rash behavior of a fifteen year old young man. The things that Harry did at fifteen are hopefully not indicative of what he will do at 21 or 22.

I think that Snape should also apply a little dose of forgiveness to his memories of James. His view of Harry might change radically.

Mikie

mooncalf - Dec 6, 2004 11:38 am (#1466 of 2971)

Very true, Mikie. Those are things that we can all hope for. But I don't expect to see 'Snape' and 'forgiveness' in the same sentence very often!

Paulus Maximus - Dec 6, 2004 12:57 pm (#1467 of 2971)

Unless there is also a "never" in that sentence...

MickeyCee3948 - Dec 6, 2004 3:32 pm (#1468 of 2971)

Point taken Mooncalf & Paulus Maximus just the eternal optimist in me.

Mikie

constant vigilance - Dec 6, 2004 5:36 pm (#1469 of 2971)

As to why Harry hasn't sought more information about his parents: He has tried, on occasion, but people haven't been very forthcoming. They will tell him how great his parents were, but there hasn't been much exchange of solid information. Harry is treated with a very "need-to-know" mentality by most of the adults in his life. That, coupled with the Dursley's conditioning to not ask questions, explains (at least for me) why Harry hasn't learned more up to now. Maybe by his 6th year he will be considered ready and needy to handle the information, not to mention he will have developed a much better understanding of how things work in the wizarding world--knowledge he was not at all in possession of until more recently. There are a lot of magical things that wizards take for granted, that Harry was only introduced to in his 4th year (portkeys, for instance).

Hollywand - Dec 6, 2004 6:30 pm (#1470 of 2971)

Speaking from personal experience, lots of kids with turbulent backgrounds aren't anxious to ask a lot of questions, especially if the answers are likely to exacerbate the pain.

Adolescents also have a very pronounced need for privacy. With most of the Wizarding World already having more knowledge of Harry's past than he does, perhaps his instinct is to try to make a clean break initially, and just live in the present with his newfound deep friendships with Ron and Hermione.

Add to that the challenges of learning new magic, meeting all the wonderful character/mentors, some git mentors, and having one hideously evil adult nipping at your heels......

I can see why Harry hasn't demanded more information ;-)

Ludicrous Patents Office - Dec 6, 2004 6:49 pm (#1471 of 2971)

Perhaps Harry has not taken the time to sort out what he wants to ask. He has been pretty busy. He is also sensitive about exposing his ignorance about the WW to people Maybe he does not reveal himself by asking certain questions. LPO

Hollywand - Dec 6, 2004 7:15 pm (#1472 of 2971)

Or, as Jo's husband wryly commented, maybe Harry also knows that there are two more books on the way. ;-)

MickeyCee3948 - Dec 7, 2004 6:37 am (#1473 of 2971)

Hollywand-"having one hideously evil adult nipping at you heels"-Why only one I think Snape comes close to falling in that category also.

Mikie

Potions Mistress - Dec 7, 2004 3:46 pm (#1474 of 2971)

When all is said and done, I think that Snape hates Harry but doesn't necessarily want him dead, if only because Harry is the one who is supposed to defeat LV. But that's just my opinion.

~pm

Hollywand - Dec 7, 2004 4:51 pm (#1475 of 2971)

Mikie, a good point. Voldemort has sought actively to kill Harry since he was a baby, but the Dursleys have been extremely mean to him whilst Harry was still in a very vulnerable psychological and emotional state as a child. To me, the Dursleys are even worse than Severus because they were Harry's private childhood life.

Petunia could have chosen a very different pathway for Harry's upbringing, but has only contributed to his suffering, for which I actively dislike her and Vernon. I hate to admit this in a public forum, but I will most likely relish passages where they are perhaps in a position where they will need Harry's protection. I doubt seriously that Harry will be as unkind and uncaring to them as they were to him as a child. On my "ugly" list, the Dursleys rank above Severus.

Severus is inexcusably mean to the trio, petty, harsh---but I would not put into the evil category per se. He has done nothing to get himself put in Azkaban that we are aware of, and Severus has actally protected the trio, and Harry in particular at certain junctures. He's twisted, I will not argue about that, he's hard on Harry, but I'm betting we will see some pivotal change in that dynamic in the forthcoming books.

White skin, flat nose, red eyes----I can hardly wait to see Ralph Fiennes looking like that! Yikes. Evil. Fiennes will really put some bite into Voldy, ok, I'm hiding under the stairs in the cupboard now......

MickeyCee3948 - Dec 7, 2004 5:20 pm (#1476 of 2971)

Hollywand-I will give you that much. Snape has not tried to kill Harry yet, wonder what will happen at the end of book 7 though if both are alive.

I agree about the Dursley's having been more evil than Severus up to this point. I think we have already seen Harry show that he has a higher opinion of the Dursleys than they have of him. He did save Dudley from the dementors.

Mikie

Paulus Maximus - Dec 7, 2004 5:43 pm (#1477 of 2971)

What Harry did to save Dudley might have been nothing more than what James did to save Snape...

So, did James have (or get) a higher opinion of Snape than vice-versa?

MickeyCee3948 - Dec 7, 2004 5:47 pm (#1478 of 2971)

I don't think so! After Harry came so close to that final kiss, I don't think he wanted anybody to suffer in that way even if his name was Dudley.

Mikie

Paulus Maximus - Dec 7, 2004 7:54 pm (#1479 of 2971)

Maybe James could have said that same about anyone being mangled by a werewolf...

Because Dudley does seem to be to Harry (on some level at least) what Snape was to James.

Kerrie-Louise - Dec 8, 2004 12:27 am (#1480 of 2971)

I think the other thing to remember here is the fact that Harry is a very fair boy. He likes justice to be done and I'm sure he would see the Dementors as an unjust punishment for a muggle child - no matter how much he hates him!

mooncalf - Dec 8, 2004 6:06 pm (#1481 of 2971) Reply
Edited by Dec 8, 2004 6:07 pm

Harry does have that saving-people thing; he wouldn't leave anyone behind. And as Kerry-Louise said, I don't think he would wish that particular fate on anyone - even Dudley.

Elanor - Dec 8, 2004 10:21 pm (#1482 of 2971)

I agree that he would want nobody to be kissed by Dementors. It is the humanity in him, the one DD talks about at the end of OotP and he seems to have got that from both his parents.

But, I also think that blood ties are important here, even if Harry hates Dudley. Those blood ties have proved to be very important for Harry's safety during all those years and they might still be important in the future. Harry could never call his relatives "a family" but they are of his blood and he can't erase that.

I was just thinking that, if both Harry and Dudley ever survived the series, one day Harry could have nephews that could be wizards. I would love to see the happy grandparents faces when they would hear the good news... LOL!

MickeyCee3948 - Dec 9, 2004 9:56 am (#1483 of 2971)

Elanor-Laughed thinking about Vernon and Petunia with grandkids on brooms.

I also see a relationship between Sirius and the Blacks with Harry and the Durseys.

Mikie

Liz Mann - Dec 9, 2004 2:49 pm (#1484 of 2971)

I agree that he would want nobody to be kissed by Dementors.

He wanted Sirius to be in PoA. Well, he said so anyway.

Harry sat stunned for a moment at the idea of someone having their sole sucked out through their mouth. But then he thought of Black.

He deserves it, he said suddenly.

You think so? said Lupin lightly. "Do you really think anyone deserves that?"

Yes, said Harry defiantly. "For... for some things."

Paulus Maximus - Dec 9, 2004 3:03 pm (#1485 of 2971)

Maybe he thought that Pete deserved the same fate that he had previously thought Sirius deserved.

On the other hand, do you really think that Harry hated Dudley as much as he hated Pete at the beginning of OP?

Or perhaps, like James, Harry would have gotten hell from the Dursleys if Dudley had been soul-sucked, and he was looking out for himself as much as for Dudley...

vball man - Dec 9, 2004 6:41 pm (#1486 of 2971)

I think that Harry was just speaking in an angry way. There was no risk of Harry having to actually decide right then what would happen to Black.
I think that Harry was thinking of his Mother - he had just been listening to her screams.
Harry is "defiant," but he seems to have a little struggle to be so. He pauses: "for... for some things.'
I think that Harry was comforted somewhat by Lupin's response.
In fact, the way Harry grows through this book is shown in this type of response.
At the begining, Harry blows up his aunt for insulting his parents.
In the middle, he pauses a bit, but states that Black should be kissed.
At the end, he stops the punishment of Wormtail.
Harry is learning forgiveness, and self control.

Professor Dumbledore - Dec 10, 2004 4:45 am (#1487 of 2971)

I wouldn't say 'self-control'. He does explode a lot in OotP...

On another note...I was rereading OotP again and I got struck by this question...Harry was left on his Aunt and Uncle's doorstep? On November 1st? I don't know about the UK, but there's usually snow on the ground by November here in New York...Why didn't he freeze?

MickeyCee3948 - Dec 10, 2004 7:38 am (#1488 of 2971)

Professor Dumbledore - Cause JKR wouldn't have had a story to tell if it had happen.

Mikie

Professor Dumbledore - Dec 10, 2004 8:14 am (#1489 of 2971)

lol...That seems to be her explanation for everything...

librarian314 - Dec 10, 2004 9:14 am (#1490 of 2971)

Hey all!

Not to change the subject too drastically but in my recent re-read I came across another couple of things that we might want to add to Harry's list of possessions: the two badges from the Ministry of Magic in OotP, especially the one labeled, "Harry Potter Rescue Mission".

I don't know about Harry, but I have a tendency to save badges. I've got ones from former jobs, and various conventions, conferences, and summer camps I've attended. It wouldn't surprise me if he'd kept them. It also wouldn't surprised me if he'd tossed them either but you never know.

I'm the type of person that saves both happy mementos as well as sad ones. Perhaps Harry is too.

# *michelle the librarian**

Potions Mistress - Dec 10, 2004 6:52 pm (#1491 of 2971)

Michelle, I'd completely forgotten about the badges! Like you, I tend to save things of that nature, but usually the ones associated with happy and fun memories. It's possible he saved the "Rescue Mission" ones, as they were done out of friendship. We also see badges come up from time to time in general, especially with prefect badges. Makes me wonder if they have any sort of significance...

As to why Harry wouldn't let the Dementors "kiss" Dudley: while there is obviously no love lost between the cousins, Dudley has not done anything as vicious as murder (that we know of, anyway...). We must also remember that Harry was thirteen when he said the Sirius deserved to have his soul sucked out by them Dementors. He was talking about a man accused of mass murder and the murder of his parents (I think Harry heard the story then: was the conversation with Lupin before or after the Hogsmeade "revelation"?). However, since Harry has had his full share of the Dementors, I can't see him NOW wanting anyone to suffer that fate, no matter how bad that person is. Look at this as the WW equivalent to the death penalty: many times, emotion tends to play a major role in one's opinion of such.

~pm

Liz Mann - Dec 11, 2004 7:24 am (#1492 of 2971)

I think Harry heard the story then: was the conversation with Lupin before or after the Hogsmeade "revelation"?

It was after. That's what he meant when he said, "for some things".

Muggle Doctor - Dec 14, 2004 4:29 pm (#1493 of 2971)

Again off the topic.

Harry's biggest blunder in the MoM battle (apart from going there in the first place) was a direct result of his anger.

When he used the cruciatus curse on Bellatrix, he nailed her fair and square - she didn't have time to block him. If only he had kept his head, he could have yelled "Stupefy" instead. I know Voldemort turned up at that point, but whether he'd have had enough time to reanimate her AND deal with Harry (against whom he has previously LOST) before Dumbledore appeared is debatable. It could also be argued that having stunned Bellatrix, Harry could have spent the time that was otherwise spent in taunting her over the smashed prophecy to get back down to the battle and be under Dumbledore's wing by the time LV arrived.

I wonder if JKR will have Harry reflect upon his great missed opportunity (especially since he now has to live with the use of an Unforgivable on his conscience, effective or not).

Potions Mistress - Dec 14, 2004 8:42 pm (#1494 of 2971)

As has been discussed previously, it seems that Harry uses his time on Privet Drive to do some reflection on the past year. I think the Doctor is right--Harry let his anger get the best of him. For all of Snape's faults, he did try to get it through to Harry that he couldn't go around wearing his emotions on his sleeve (specifically in Occlumency, but I'd also imagine in general). Harry spent most of his time in OP being incredibly angry at everything (granted, he did have some valid reasons), but I hope that he does think about his anger got the best of him and that he did things that he'll probably regret a few months down the road. Hope this makes sense, I've been writing essays all day and am about to collapse.

~pm

Ann - Dec 15, 2004 7:38 am (#1495 of 2971)

Muggle Doctor: "I wonder if JKR will have Harry reflect upon his great missed opportunity (especially since he now has to live with the use of an Unforgivable on his conscience, effective or not)."

Very good point! Although there are an awful lot of such missed opportunities throughout the series if you look for them. (I don't; it sort of spoils things to reflect that, for example, if Harry et al. hadn't gone after the Stone at the end of PS/SS, Dumbledore would still have caught Quirrellmort, and possibly more effectively.)

And about Harry's attempt to use the Cruciatus curse: it taught us something (that you really have to mean it--to want and enjoy pain--to use it; and that this is also true of the AK and Imperius Curses), and I agree with you that Harry is going to (and ought to) regret it.

But it's not illegal, I think, against an escaped DE, assuming that Crouch Sr.'s "reforms" are still in effect.

Paulus Maximus - Dec 15, 2004 9:12 am (#1496 of 2971)

Nobody would press charges against Harry even if it were illegal. Bella can't, because she's an escaped convict; Harry won't, because he isn't stupid; and there were no other witnesses at the time.

TwinklingBlueEyes - Dec 15, 2004 9:18 am (#1497 of 2971)

I was under the impression that the MOM had legalized the use of the "unforgivables" by the Aurors against the DE's. That it did not allow their use by the wizarding population at large.

Liz Mann - Dec 15, 2004 1:34 pm (#1498 of 2971)

I think Harry is still going to be very angry at the beginning of HBP. He has a lot to be angry about. He seems to turn all other negative emotions into anger, so he will be angry about Sirius. And he could also be angry at Dumbledore and most of the Order for keeping crucial info from him that could have saved Sirius's life. J.K. said he has to master his emotions but I don't think that'll happen until later in the book. At the beginning, I think we can expect to see an extremely angsty Harry.

Steve Newton - Dec 15, 2004 1:48 pm (#1499 of 2971)

I don't know, Liz. At the end of OOTP he was calling himself a marked man. Man being the important word, for now. (Marked also has potential but that is another topic.) The books have been described as coming of age stories. This man stuff may mean that he is now ready to deal with things maturely.

Perhaps not.

Elanor - Dec 15, 2004 2:02 pm (#1500 of 2971)

I agree Steve, the more because DD himself uses that word in "The lost prophecy" chapter: "Harry, suffering like this proves you are still a man!" (p.726). I think there is no coincidence that this word is used twice in a very short time at the end of OotP. It is the end of a stage in Harry's life, a stage that lasted for the 5 first years he spent in Hogwarts, till he knows the truth (or at least part of it).

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Prefect Marcus - Dec 15, 2004 2:08 pm (#1501 of 2971)

... and ready to take on the fairer sex in earnest. :-)

MickeyCee3948 - Dec 15, 2004 3:09 pm (#1502 of 2971)

I don't see it that way Liz Mann, I believe that Elanor and Steve Newton are on the right track. Harry is upset but I believe his anger is directly more inward. He knows that if he had listened to certain people, Hermione, Professor Snape & DD then the possibility exists that Sirius might not have died. I believe he understands that if he does not want to suffer further emotional losses then he must learn to control his emotions. No one can help him with this job, he must do it himself and I think we saw the beginning of the realization in the last chapter of OotP. Just my 2 knuts, though.

Mikie

Solitaire - Dec 15, 2004 3:20 pm (#1503 of 2971)

I think that the term man could have two meanings as it is used. Yes, it is referring to the fact that Harry is at a point where he must assume responsibility for his actions ... and for fulfilling his destiny. I think Dumbledore might also be using it to indicate humanity. Harry can still feel human emotions, something that Voldemort--even with Harry's very human blood now in him--probably has ceased to do.

Solitaire

Paulus Maximus - Dec 15, 2004 3:39 pm (#1504 of 2971)

It is interesting that Harry says of himself that "he had always been a marked man."

To suppose that one has always been a man is to suppose that one has never been a boy...

Ludicrous Patents Office - Dec 15, 2004 5:05 pm (#1505 of 2971)

Harry was very touched by how everyone met him at the station. They agreed to stay in contact with him at least every three days. I think that will help his anger. At the beginning of OoP he could not see how people cared about him. Now he can. I think that is part of him becoming a man. He is developing the maturity to see beyond himself. LPO

TomProffitt - Dec 15, 2004 9:03 pm (#1506 of 2971)

Being a "marked man" is an idiom. It is unconventional to use any other term than "man" in the idiom. While it may be more accurate or appropriate to use other words it does not feel the same to say "I've always been a marked teenager."

I don't believe Jo had any intention of that idiom carry special meaning in regards to Harry's maturity, but only intended to give further description of Voldemort's motivation for attacking him.

It is deviation from a normal idiom that should spark our curiosity, not the idiom itself.

TwinklingBlueEyes - Dec 15, 2004 9:24 pm (#1507 of 2971)

Whew Tom! That was a mouthful! Well said, I thunk! Ok, I admit, was well said.

I think Mickey hit it spot on. Harry is growing, realizing he is growing. He has reached his crisis. Where he chooses to go from here will determine the man he becomes. Very good points ya'll!

Steve Newton - Dec 16, 2004 6:10 am (#1508 of 2971)

TomProffitt, you are, of course, correct, it is an idiom. (I'm also practicing my commas.) But, it hasn't come up before. I think that it is meaningful in this case. As Elanor pointed out, it is emphasized by Dumbledore.

LooneyLuna - Dec 16, 2004 10:38 am (#1509 of 2971)

Also, Dumbledore is the first adult to recognize/call Harry a man. Then Harry refers to himself as a man. He also leads the Dursleys out of King's Cross Station - they follow in his wake. This is a marked change for Harry.

Toddles off to St. Mungos for tea.

Steve Newton - Dec 16, 2004 11:11 am (#1510 of 2971)

He also leads the Dursleys out of King's Cross Station

Looney, I hadn't caught that. Good one. Sort of reminiscent of, can't remember the name, the guy who plays Vernon, on the evolving relationship of the Dursleys and Harry on the DVD.

Prefect Marcus - Dec 16, 2004 11:20 am (#1511 of 2971)

LooneyLuna - He also leads the Dursleys out of King's Cross Station - they follow in his wake. This is a marked change for Harry.

Didn't they also follow in his wake at the end of PoA when Harry mentioned his Godfather, the escaped murderer? I don't have my books with me so I can't check.

Elanor - Dec 16, 2004 12:58 pm (#1512 of 2971)

You're right Prefect Marcus, but the situation is described in a very different way. In PoA, the last sentence is:

And grinning broadly at the look of horror on Uncle vernon's face, Harry set off towards the station exit, Hedwig rattling along in front of him, for what looked like a much better summer than the last.

There is no mention of the Dursleys following him. Harry makes his point and doesn't wait for them. The Dursleys are frozen to the spot and start to fear him now, as the actor who plays Vernon said.

In OotP, the last sentence is:

Instead, he smiled, raised a hand in a farewell, turned around and led the way out of the station towards the sunlit street, with Uncle Vernon, Aunt Petunia and Dudley hurrying along in his wake.

The Dursleys are defeated, they just have to follow him and live in the fear of what may come, Mad-eyed wizards, dementors, pink haired witches and what else, and above all in the fear of what Harry is becoming and that they can't (try to) control anymore. They are overtaken by events they thought they could have avoid by burying their heads in the sand. Bad luck. I could even pity them eventually, though narrow they are...

Hollywand - Dec 16, 2004 1:25 pm (#1513 of 2971)

Elanor, you are such a kind hearted soul, like Harry, much more compassion than the Dursleys deserve....

MickeyCee3948 - May 18, 2004 11:25 pm (#1514 of 2971)

After what the Dursleys have put Harry through, I'm afraid personnally that they would be groveling and begging for a long, long time. Only an attack by Voldemort and DE's could soften my feelings aganist them. No muggle should endure the pain that they are capable of.

Mikie

Phoenix song - Dec 16, 2004 7:44 pm (#1515 of 2971)

This discussion reminds me of the story of Cinderella. She was mistreated and abused by her step-mother and step-sisters, yet she forgave them and allowed them to come and live with her in the castle when she married the prince. The step family deserved to be mistreated, but she was a better person because she didn't abuse her authority against them when she had the opportunity.

I think that by the end of the series Harry will be able to forgive the Dursleys as well. Do they deserve good treatment from Harry? Absolutely not. Yet they did take him in at his time of need, and Harry will not totally negate that debt. Dumbledore said that it was Pet taking him in, although she did it furiously and grudgingly, that kept him alive until he was old enough to attend Hogwarts. That must count for something even if their actions showed what small hearted people they really are.

Further more, I just think that by the end of the books Harry will realize that hatred and vengefulness will make him turn out like Snape and Voldemort. He will have experienced enough hatred and will not want to be a party to spreading more of it.

Just my opinion, of course!
Barbie

Ydnam96 - Dec 16, 2004 7:53 pm (#1516 of 2971)

Phoenix Song! As I was reading the post above you the scene from Ever After where the evil step mother (Angelica Houston) and her daughter are forced to be servants to Danielle (Drew Barrymore) and her Prince in the castle and are pushed into a big vat of purple clothing dye. I LOVE that scene. Only because they are finally getting treated the way they treated cinderella for the whole movie. When I read your post I laughed out loud, we were thinking the same thing: Harry is Cinderella- hopefully the Durselys get their just reward.

edit: [obviously I am not as generous as you are to the Dursleys Smile

I wouldn't mind seeing them apologize for how they treated Harry, but I'd also like to see one kind of scene where they get a taste of how Harry's life was with them]

Ann - Dec 16, 2004 8:01 pm (#1517 of 2971)

Phoenix Song, excuse the "I agree" type post, but I just wanted to say how much I like your phrase "small hearted." That's exactly what the Dursleys are!

I agree with Elanor--I don't really want to see them punished at this point (though it was funny earlier: the lawn competition, particularly). But I would like to see them shamed.

Solitaire - Dec 16, 2004 8:32 pm (#1518 of 2971)

I agree, Ann. I'm not yet sure, however, that they are capable of feeling shame. I think the Dursleys honestly believe they have been generous, caring guardians of Harry. Just consider all of the snotty remarks Aunt Marge makes in PoA. I feel pretty sure she echoes Uncle Vernon's sentiments. Petunia? Time will tell, I suppose, whether or not she felt anger toward Marge for the vicious insults she hurled at Lily. I hope she did.

Solitaire

dizzy lizzy - Dec 16, 2004 10:19 pm (#1519 of 2971)

I would hope that Harry does forgive the Dursley's. Only because he knows what lies ahead of him if he keeps carrying his hate and hurt around around. Solitaire, I sometimes wonder if even the characters we see as "two dimensional" like Petunia, Vernon and Dudley turn out to have a couple of extra layers of complexity by the end of the series.

Lizzy

Nicole Bloom - Dec 16, 2004 10:49 pm (#1520 of 2971)

I think Petunia definitley knows something that she's not telling and I do hope that when it is revealed she and Harry will become closer. She is his mother's sister after all and she must have felt some loyality to blood to take him in in the first place.

Solitaire - Dec 17, 2004 8:34 am (#1521 of 2971)

Lizzy, as my post indicates, I think it is possible there is more to Petunia. But I do believe Uncle Vernon is pretty much what he seems to be. As a literature teacher, I know that not every character in a novel can be a dynamic (changing) or even a round character. There simply isn't time in such a crowded book to develop every character sufficiently. That is why authors often use stereotyped characters. They don't need to take the time to inform us of the whys and wherefores of their actions, since the avid readers among us know the general "character types" and can figure out some things on our own.

I consider Uncle Vernon a stereotype character. We know pretty much what to expect of him--and so far, we have not been surprised--because we have met similar characters in other stories. I think Aunt Petunia's startling revelations at the beginning of OotP indicate that she is not really a stereotyped character. There is certainly more to her than meets the eye. I'm not sure about Dudley.

When I said I was not sure that the Dursleys were capable of feeling shame, that was not a pronouncement of their character types. Even multidimensional characters may not be capable of feeling shame.

Solitaire

The One - Dec 17, 2004 8:51 am (#1522 of 2971)

I'm not sure about Dudley.

I) agree with your post Solitare. As far as Dudley is concerned, JKR did say about him that "What you see is what you get". Probably Petunia will turn out to be the only interesting character of the family.

Ann - Dec 17, 2004 10:11 am (#1523 of 2971)

This probably all belongs on a Dursley thread, but it occurs to me:

Vernon: no possibility of redemption; superficial
Petunia: no possibility of redemption; complex
Dudley: possibility of redemption; superficial

Interesting--they're all different.

TomProffitt - Dec 17, 2004 11:13 am (#1524 of 2971)

Harry and we, the readers, are only just beginning to realize something very important about Petunia and Vernon. They are terrified of all wizards. It appears now (seeing as we know Petunia is aware of Dementors) that they have very good reason to be afraid.

We may not know what happened to the rest of Lily's (and Petunia's) family, but you can rest assured that Petunia and Vernon know. Perhaps we should be more understanding of the Dursleys, even if we cannot find it within ourselves to be forgiving.

Weeny Owl - Dec 17, 2004 11:23 am (#1525 of 2971)

Understanding that the Dursleys have fears of the Wizarding World isn't a difficult thing.

Understanding how anyone could lock a child in a cupboard for years and years, allow another relative and her dog to torment the child, basically treat him as an indentured servant, allow his cousin to beat him up and stuff him in a toilet, verbally berate him, and the myriad other things the Dursleys have allowed and have done to him is an incredibly difficult thing.

Solitaire - Dec 17, 2004 11:35 am (#1526 of 2971)

Are we sure Vernon knows that information, Tom? He certainly knows what he has seen (or thinks he has seen), and Petunia has obviously told him certain things. But were they accurate? I think whatever Petunia has told Vernon in the past is open to scrutiny. We know she lied to Harry about how his parents died. I think it is quite likely that she has lied about or "edited" other information when it has suited her purpose. I do not believe we should take anything she has said as being necessarily the truth.

Solitaire

MickeyCee3948 - Dec 17, 2004 11:38 am (#1527 of 2971)

Here,Here Weeny Owl - No amount of fear would account for what the Dursleys have done to Harry. I agree that there are things that we don't know. That Petunia & Vernon probably do know. But nothing they know could condone their actions aganist Harry.

I believe Ann's analogy of the Dursley's is very foretelling as it is my belief that the reason for Harry's short stay at #4 will be an attack on the Dursley's and Harry/Petunia having to save Dudley. I believe that Vernon will either be killed or seriously injured.

Mikie

TomProffitt - Dec 17, 2004 11:47 am (#1528 of 2971)

Are we sure Vernon knows that information, Tom? --- Solitaire

I had second thoughts about that after I posted it. It is uncertain exactly what Vernon knows, but something did happen to Petunia's family. Something that made the Dursley's fear that Harry would become not just a wizard, but a Death Eater.

I don't think that it is just a matter of Vernon and Petunia fearing wizards. Something terrible happened, not just to James and Lily, but quite likely the rest of the Potters and Evanses. As narrow-minded as Vernon and Petunia seem to be it is only reasonable for them to fear Harry becoming the only kind of wizard they know, one that kills randomly and indiscriminately. The final scene of OotP did not assuage their fears of this, but heightened them.

The behavior of Vernon and Petunia in Harry's up bringing was not mere prejudice against wizards, but fear for their very lives.

Prefect Marcus - Dec 17, 2004 12:21 pm (#1529 of 2971)

All this Dursley talk is facinating, but shouldn't it be over on a 'Dursley' thread? "Good ol' Aunt Petunia" sounds like a winner.

Weeny Owl - Dec 17, 2004 10:58 pm (#1530 of 2971)

I believe Ann's analogy of the Dursley's is very foretelling as it is my belief that the reason for Harry's short stay at #4 will be an attack on the Dursley's and Harry/Petunia having to save Dudley.

JKR said in her recent website update that the rumors about Harry leaving Privet Drive early because he would be on trial again were false, and that he would be leaving for a more pleasant reason. That suggests to me that it would have anything to do with an attack on the Dursleys or Harry.

MickeyCee3948 - Dec 18, 2004 4:07 am (#1531 of 2971)

I know. I know Weeny Owl. I have revamped my opinion based on JKR's comments guess I just wanted to see the Dursley's get their's a little earlier on. Will now just have to wait for the final volume.

Mikie

Ludicrous Patents Office - Dec 18, 2004 4:20 pm (#1532 of 2971)

In OoP Harry has both his worlds crash together. I think that foreshadows what will happen in book 7. I don't think we will learn much about Petunia and Vernon until then. Hopefully Harry will have a little better summer away from #4. His stay will only be the minimum length to satisfy the charm DD laid on him. LPO

septentrion - Dec 23, 2004 2:30 am (#1533 of 2971)

I've poste it on the JKR's website thread but thought it could fit here too : I wonder if Harry isn't to leave Privet Drive early to have a party for his "outstanding" results for OWLS ? Or maybe not for a party but because of his results ? It sounds somewhat far-fetched as I'm typing it but what do you think of it ?

MickeyCee3948 - Dec 23, 2004 6:54 am (#1534 of 2971)

septentrion I don't think there's going to be much time for partying during HBP. Now that Voldemort has been exposed so to speak, I am afraid that most of the good guys are going to be on the run trying to stay alive.

Mikie

LooneyLuna - Dec 23, 2004 7:00 am (#1535 of 2971)

Harry will be 16. So, it would be nice if he could have a little party celebrating his birthday. A nice party with guests, cake, games, and presents.

I know HBP isn't going to be a picnic for Harry, but it would be nice if Harry could have a proper birthday party for once - not couped up in his room at the Dursleys.

scoop2172000 - Dec 23, 2004 7:13 am (#1536 of 2971)

A proper party for Harry would be nice, and it's the sort of thing I can see Molly Weasley organizing. The Best Birthday would counter The Worst Birthday in CoS.

T Brightwater - Dec 23, 2004 9:46 am (#1537 of 2971)

LooneyLuna, I think you may be right. Since he has always been at #4 for his birthday, if he has a party somewhere else that would fulfill Jo's hint that his stay at the Dursleys this summer will be the shortest yet, and also that Harry's reason for leaving early will be a pleasant one. (I'm sure that the Dursleys won't give him a party!)

I can imagine Lupin would be in on the plans, too.

Solitaire - Dec 23, 2004 10:54 am (#1538 of 2971)

I agree with you all! I vote for a birthday party that doesn't involve being cooped up in his room with Hedwig and a half can of cold soup! A 16th birthday party sounds just like something Molly would organize, with Order members and as many of his friends as she can muster.

I wonder if--when they come to fetch Harry away--Arthur will take this opportunity to tell the Dursleys they really ought to wish Harry a happy birthday? Remember his admonitions to them in GoF? hehe

Solitaire

dizzy lizzy - Dec 23, 2004 12:49 pm (#1539 of 2971)

Just because we think the next book will be "dark" (wizarding War/death/fights/grief etc); there is no reason to think there will be no "light" (birthday parties, romance, school, funny things etc). You can't have one without the other. Although I concede the balance between the two (dark/light) is a little skewed at the present time.

For that reason if any, I think there has to be happiness and cheefulness and laughter in the book and what better way than for Harry to have a birthday party. He's never had one before and I really want him to experience one.

Lizzy

LooneyLuna - Dec 23, 2004 2:24 pm (#1540 of 2971)

I think I'd gift Harry with a Portable Swamp from Weasley's Wizarding Wheezes. I'll throw in some Canary Creams and Skivving Snackboxes. Do you think Fred and George do gift baskets? Smile

Paulus Maximus - Dec 23, 2004 3:21 pm (#1541 of 2971)

Nah... those would be more appropriate gifts for the Dursleys.

Imagine a portable swamp on their front lawn...

Ludicrous Patents Office - Dec 23, 2004 3:34 pm (#1542 of 2971)

Great idea Paulus. I hope he leaves early because Fred and George rescue him. They are "adults" now. I don't think they will treat Harry like a child and leave him in the dark. After all he is their financial backer. A birthday party hosted by the twins would be pretty funny. LPO

Choices - Dec 23, 2004 4:40 pm (#1543 of 2971)

Who-wee! Lots of fireworks compliments of Fred and George. I love the idea of a 16th birthday bash.

LooneyLuna - Dec 23, 2004 5:58 pm (#1544 of 2971)

Paulus - I meant that Harry could use those on others. Smile

Aunt Petunia would be scandalized by having a swamp for a front yard. Imagine, Dudley turning into a Canary!

Yes, Choices, I agree. Loads of Fireworks compliments of Fred and George. Headless hats for everyone!

vball man - Dec 23, 2004 10:10 pm (#1545 of 2971)

Blowing up a portable swamp at the Dursley's is the best idea I've heard for a while.
There's so many "clean" references. It would bother more than anything. They would be the disgrace of the neighborhood.

Julia. - Dec 23, 2004 10:16 pm (#1546 of 2971)

I'm with you on that one! The Dursleys would be mortified if there was a swamp on their precious lawn. The neighbors would laugh and they wouldn't be able to get rid of it. Kudos to who ever came up with that one!

scoop2172000 - Dec 24, 2004 5:38 am (#1547 of 2971)

I love the idea of a swamp at #4. LOL!

Too bad the swamp might violate the secrecy laws -- and Harry would probably get blamed for more underage magic even if it was Gred & Forge, not him, who set it off.

I could see the twins apparating to Privet Drive to drop in on Harry. They've been to the Dursleys twice (in the Anglia to rescue Harry in CoS and to help pick him up for the World Cup in GoF.) They know exactly where Harry lives in the summer.

One visit from the twins might make Uncle Vernon reconsider his ban on the phone calls, ha, ha. He might even rethink his aversion to owl post, preferring owls arriving with letters to the twins showing up at his home.

P.S. A Skivving Snackbox would be a handy gift for Harry if he manages to get into NEWT-level Potions.

T Brightwater - Dec 24, 2004 6:34 am (#1548 of 2971)

If Harry gets into NEWT-level Potions, _Snape_ might want a Skiving Snackbox...

Ann - Dec 24, 2004 8:05 am (#1549 of 2971)

If Harry gets into NEWT-level Potions, _Snape_ might want a Skiving Snackbox...

Indeed! He will be so unhappy if he doesn't get rid of Harry next year!

Incidentally, I agree with those who say there will be bits of light and happiness for Harry in the next book. If there is no joy and happiness and love, the risks he takes and the the dangers he faces will seem less intense. And JKR's going to make sure that Harry suffers, she's said.

I don't know whether this belongs here or on the 'ships thread or perhaps the 'who is going to die' thread, but I suspect that the next person Harry falls in love with is going to die.

scoop2172000 - Dec 24, 2004 9:13 am (#1550 of 2971)

Interesting theory, Ann, that "the next person Harry falls in love with is going to die."

Voldemort found out, through the Malfoys via Kreacher, that Harry cared deeply about Sirius. Voldemort used that information to trick Harry into going to the Ministry of Magic, guessing correctly that Harry would go to any legnth to rescue Sirius.

Maybe Voldemort and the Death Eaters are planning to go after the people nearest and dearest to Harry, trying to destroy Harry that way. This could include Harry's first "true love."

I don't count Cho as his first love, by the way. First "crush" yes, but not love.

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Ludicrous Patents Office - Dec 24, 2004 2:23 pm (#1551 of 2971)

I agree Ann, there has to be something to fight for. JKR has too good a sense of humor to not add something light in the next couple books. LPO

Potions Mistress - Dec 24, 2004 7:22 pm (#1552 of 2971)

Interesting idea about LV killing Harry's first love. I do wonder if for that reason if Harry will distance himself from those he loves (romantically, platonically, etc.) in an effort to keep them safe. Can't wait for July 16!

~pm

Ann - Dec 24, 2004 8:44 pm (#1553 of 2971)

I'm glad people think it's an interesting idea (although, of course, I assume we all would prefer not to put Harry through such a thing).

One point--Sirius's death was not the result of his closeness to Harry: it was a completely random and gratuitous blow of fate, as sadly happens often in war, and I think JKR has said that that was part of the point, although she has also said that his death was necessary from a plotting perspective.

(Merry Christmas to those who are celebrating it!)

Choices - Dec 25, 2004 9:07 am (#1554 of 2971)

Thanks Ann - Merry Christmas to you too! I have to say I think Sirius' death had a little bit to do with his love for Harry - he would not have rushed to the MOM to help Harry if he didn't love him. And yes, it was also a random act of war that killed him. He maybe underestimated Bella just a tad. Lesson to all - never get hit with a spell while standing in front of a death portal.

Ann - Dec 25, 2004 10:28 am (#1555 of 2971)

Choices, you're right, of course. What I meant is that he was not specifically targeted by LV.

Choices - Dec 25, 2004 2:24 pm (#1556 of 2971)

Yes, you are right in that Ann - Sirius was not the target - his image was just used by LV to entice Harry there.

Potions Mistress - Dec 27, 2004 7:08 pm (#1557 of 2971)

But that was the image of someone Harry loved. Yes, in Sirius' case, his death came about as more of random tragedy, but I wouldn't put it past LV to threaten/kill someone Harry loves just to torture Harry. Look how torn up Harry is about Cedric's death--yes, Cedric was a completely innocent bystander, but Harry didn't know him that well. I think that LV will kill more of Harry's loved ones not only to get to Harry in a physical manner (like Sirius), but in an emotional manner as well--trying to weaken him, if you will.

~pm

Ludicrous Patents Office - Dec 28, 2004 4:21 pm (#1558 of 2971)

~pm the DE at the MOM had no problems threatening Ginny and torturing Neville to coerce Harry. I think they could easily choose a friend of Harry's to torture or kill. LV knows Harry likes to save people. Through Draco and the MOM battle they will have reliable information on who Harry is close to. LPO

Solitaire - Dec 28, 2004 5:15 pm (#1559 of 2971)

Despite Hermione's assessment that Harry has a "saving people thing," LPO, I'm not so sure if it is that Harry likes to save people. I think there are other factors in play.

In PS/SS, Harry was convinced that Snape was after the Stone. Okay, he was wrong about who was trying to steal it; but he wasn't wrong that someone was trying to steal it--and steal it for Voldemort--was he? He set out to save it, because he honestly believed no one else was going to bother to do it!

In CoS, kids were falling right and left, and no one was able to stop whatever was doing it. When (with Hermione's help) he finally figures out what's going on, it's pretty clear that the only adult he could have counted besides Dumbledore (who is gone) is a big fraud. He knows that if he and Ron don't go after Ginny, no one else is going to do it. If he hadn't gone, she would have died.

In PoA, Voldemort isn't directly involved, but even Dumbledore sends Harry and Hermione on a "mission of mercy," doesn't he? I mean, Dumbledore himself could probably have gone back in time to save Sirius and Buckbeak, but he obviously wanted Harry to be involved for some reason.

In GoF, Harry is immersed in something he did not seek out and does not really understand. He didn't know that the kids at the bottom of the lake were safe. All he knew is that it looked like Fleur's sister was in danger. He willingly relinquished what he felt were his chances to win in order to save her. When the chips were down, other people's lives were more important to him than his own--a quality or belief he seems to have inherited from his mother, by the way. For what it's worth, I believe Harry would have died in Cedric's place, if he'd had the opportunity. Like his mother, Harry is not afraid to die--or maybe I should say, he is willing to die, if he must, to accomplish his goals. Voldemort cannot understand this.

In OotP, I do not see Harry as being arrogant or out to have fun on his trip to the Ministry. Due mainly to the machinations of Umbridge and Fudge (are we sure she isn't in cahoots with LV?), Harry has been rather effectively cut off from every adult he trusts. In desperation, he tries to communicate with Snape, but he is not aware of having succeeded. As a result, he does the only thing he can think to do: he sets out to see if he can find and rescue him. I think he would have loved to let Dumbledore and the Order do it for him. In his mind, however, there was no one else to do it.

Yes, Harry goes off half-cocked on partial information. But I think it must be conceded that he operates on partial information not because he is too lazy to find out the truth, but because people have withheld it from him. Hopefully, that will change.

It is true that kidnapping someone Harry loves--Ron & the other Weasleys, Hermione, Remus, even Neville--would certainly bring him running to their rescue. I guess I just see that tendency in a different light. Think about it. During all those "Dursley years," Harry dreamed that someone would come and rescue him from that life. I think he understands what it feels like to be abandoned, forgotten, left behind--which is certainly how he must have felt--and no one he values is going to have to endure that feeling if he can do anything about it.

I guess I don't see this tendency in Harry as simply "liking to save people." I see it more as his being unable to stand the idea of someone he values being abandoned to his or her fate. Harry would give his life for those he loves ... much like his mother. In the end, maybe that's what it all comes down to: the part of Lily that resides in Harry is just not as easy to get to as simply taking a few drops of his blood.

Solitaire (sorry for such a long post)

Choices - Dec 28, 2004 6:25 pm (#1560 of 2971)

Wow Solitaire - nobody minds a long post when it has as much to say as yours does. I like your thinking and I totally agree.

Just a thought about all the deeds Harry has had to perform - I think Dumbledore has set up (so to speak) or allowed things to happen to train Harry, to give him the opportunity to experience what it's like to be under fire from various "bad guys" or bad situations. I think that explains the satisfied smile on Dumbledore's face when Harry, Ron and Ginny return from the Chamber of Secrets. It was like he was thinking, "Well done Harry, well done ...... you have exceeded my expectations". I think Dumbledore is doing his best to test Harry, to determine his strengths and to give him some experience in situations like he will have to face in the final war with Voldemort. If Harry didn't have this strong desire to help his friends, to be a "savior", then he wouldn't measure up for the job he has to do.

Solitaire - Dec 28, 2004 6:57 pm (#1561 of 2971)

Thanks, Choices. **blushing** I agree with you, too, about Dumbledore knowing a lot of what is going on with Harry. I think Dumbledore's "invis" ability has allowed him to observe Harry during all of his various tasks or "quests" at Hogwarts.

Dumbledore himself told Harry (in OotP) that he has watched him more closely than he could have imagined. I got the distinct idea from that part of the conversation that he has been "up in the rafters," overseeing every part of Harry's journey--even during those times when Harry felt he was alone.

Perhaps this is why Dumbledore always knows when Harry has reached his limit and either appears himself or sends his spirit through Fawkes ... as if by magic! It is one of those issues where I willingly "suspend my disbelief" and go with the story.

Solitaire

Ludicrous Patents Office - Dec 28, 2004 8:09 pm (#1562 of 2971)

Solitaire, Excellent post of "other factors". I agree that Harry knows what it is like to feel abandoned so he is not going to do the same. I also think there is something more to it. He feels a strong sense of responsibility and almost an obligation to protect people. In OoP (Scholastic p. 547 Hardbound) when Broderick Bode was killed by the Devils Snare Harry says "...we could've stopped this from happening..." Ron and Hermione do not react by feeling responsible for Broderick's death. Ron sees it as a mistake and Hermione as a murder. They are horrified by it but do not feel the weight of it as Harry did. My wording of "likes" was incorrect, I'm off to slam my ears in the oven and munch down a stoat sandwich. I agree that DD is watching and guiding Harry in more ways than we and Harry know about. LPO

Solitaire - Dec 28, 2004 8:17 pm (#1563 of 2971)

He feels a strong sense of responsibility and almost an obligation to protect people.

I think you've nailed it there, LPO. What's more--and worse, perhaps?--I think that feeling of obligation will grow more insistent now that Harry knows the content of the prophecy. What do you think?

Oh! and no ear-slamming, either, please! I like your ears the way they are! ;-)

Solitaire

Ludicrous Patents Office - Dec 28, 2004 8:39 pm (#1564 of 2971)

I agree Solitaire. It will grow worse. Harry now understands certain consequences of his actions. Hopefully that will temper the weight of the prophecy. I can see him feeling more and more responsible as Voldemort's power grows. Harry will think he could have saved the people who are going to be injured and killed by full filing the prophecy. Hopefully DD and others who care for him can prepare him emotionally and magically for what is to come. Gad, what a burden of guilt.

I am re reading CoS and Dobby just explained to Harry about punishing himself by slamming his ears in the oven. Thanks for your intervention! LPO

Edit: Are we going to see Harry turn from hunted to hunter?

wwtMask - Dec 29, 2004 5:34 am (#1565 of 2971)

Well said Solitaire and LPO. Honestly, I never thought that deeply into Harry's "saving people thing" and, in retrospect, I've been rather harsh in my estimation of him. In this new perspective, however, he appears a rather tragic hero, whose senses of justice and responsibility seem to be leading him toward a noble, self-sacrificing end on behalf of the WW. Considering the general ill-treatment of Harry by the WW for the last year, even when wizards know he put Voldemort out of commission fifteen years prior, I wonder if the WW really deserves his sacrifice (assuming he sacrifices himself). Knowing Harry, whether or not they deserve it, he'll put his life on the line anyway.

LPO, I can't see how Harry will have time to do any hunting unless Voldemort decides to turn up at Hogwarts, and even then I think Harry still feels in the position of the hunted due to Voldemort's extremely impressive magical ability.

librarian314 - Dec 29, 2004 6:03 am (#1566 of 2971)

Hey all!

I think Harry has already sacrificed quite a lot for the wizard community. The last five years have been fraught with peril. He's been close to death himself at least 4 times and seen death twice in little over a year. That's on top of all the hassles that the other students and the wizard community heap on top of him (the speculation of whether or not he's the Heir of Slytherin; Rita Skeeter's horrid articles, etc.)

Harry has sacrificed having a normal, quiet schooling. He's not allowed to make the thousands of little learning mistakes that teach one how to survive in the world. His mistakes get splashed all over the Daily Prophet or contribute to people's deaths.

I think that Harry has given quiet enough to the wizards, especially seeing as how fickle they are. If he were to say, "See ya!" and went and retired to some uncharted island and let the wizard world deal with Voldemort on their own, without him, I couldn't really blame him.

Not that Harry will do that. He will save the wizarding world because there are enough people there that he cares about that he will not abandon them as he has been abandoned at various times in the past. As others have mentioned, he feels a responsibility to look after those that can't look after themselves and help where he can. If that includes giving his life to conquer Voldemort, once and for all, I believe he'd do it, in a heartbeat. I just hope it doesn't come down to that, because dear Harry deserves to have a nice quiet stress free life once he's done saving the world.

Hope everyone had a nice holiday and has a safe new year!

# *michelle the librarian**

Ann - Dec 29, 2004 7:30 am (#1567 of 2971)

Wonderful posts, people! And a typically excellent analysis of the "saving people thing," Solitaire.

I was just re-reading the end of OotP, actually, and it struck me as totally nuts that Harry and five other teenagers go off to save someone from the most evil and powerful wizard of their time. Not surprising that they would do it, since they clearly felt they had no other choice; but surprising that Voldemort could predict that they would. He certainly wouldn't have done the same! How could he conceive of the love Harry had for Sirius, or that his friends have for him?

I think a large part of HBP is going to be about the efforts of Dumbledore (and everyone else who loves Harry) to prevent him from attacking Voldemort before he is ready. Talk about responsibility! Now that he knows that he is the only one who can defeat Voldemort, he will see every death as his fault--had he attacked Voldemort earlier, this person or that person would not have had to die. But he needs to be fully trained; and I think it is also necessary that Ron, Hermione, and the others be fully trained, too. Harry's capacity for inspiring love in others is going to be as important as his capacity to love others himself.

Solitaire - Dec 29, 2004 9:31 am (#1568 of 2971)

Ann: Now that he knows that he is the only one who can defeat Voldemort, he will see every death as his fault--had he attacked Voldemort earlier, this person or that person would not have had to die.

Yes, I see this huge pile of guilt as a potentially paralyzing problem if it isn't addressed and headed off before it begins. I think that Dumbledore must assume a more "hands on" approach with Harry, if Harry is going to be ready to meet Voldemort in the ultimate challenge. Having gone toe-to-toe with Grindelwald, Dumbledore has been in Harry's shoes before, although he had considerably more training and experience by the time he reached that point. I think he needs to start bringing Harry along more directly, rather than letting Harry "find his way."

I like Michelle's point about how Harry has not been allowed to just live like a regular kid (Wizard or Muggle) and make his normal, growing-up kind of mistakes in private. Rather, they are splashed all over the headlines for the Wizarding World to read, misinterpret, and ridicule. Unfortunately, Rita will be "unleashed" to write what she pleases in the coming book. It will be interesting to see whether she pursues truth and justice ... or seeks revenge.

Solitaire

Choices - Dec 29, 2004 10:11 am (#1569 of 2971)

Solitaire - "Rita will be "unleashed" to write what she pleases in the coming book. It will be interesting to see whether she pursues truth and justice ... or seeks revenge."

Reading that made me wonder.....What if something is discovered about Rita - something embarrassing or just false - and it is splashed across the Daily Prophet front page for all to see. Then maybe Rita will know what it's like to have that kind of bad press - to have your mistake or just your life put out for public ridicule. That is all I can see that might change her and make her more likely to persue the truth and quit writing evil things about people. Just a thought.

Solitaire - Dec 29, 2004 10:23 am (#1570 of 2971)

I don't know, Choices. Hermione still has some pretty damning evidence on her--the unregistered animagus business. It will be interesting to see how this affects what she writes. I suppose, if things were to get totally ugly, Hermione could leak the info to Luna's dad and it could wind up on the front pages.

The problem with exposing Rita would be that any hope of restraint would then be removed, wouldn't it? As long as Hermione has that piece of info on Rita, I think she hopes it might "temper" what Rita writes. I wonder, however, whether this is a vain hope.

Solitaire

Ludicrous Patents Office - Dec 29, 2004 10:26 am (#1571 of 2971)

One of the questions JKR suggests we think about is why didn't Voldemort die when the curse on baby Harry rebounded. Harry and Voldemort share many things. What will it take to kill Voldemort? How can Harry do it? We know he has to be careful with the wands meeting. Voldemort cannot possess Harry like he can others. It seems like they cannot kill each other using conventional ways. How will Harry's heart save him or lead him to destruction? I think that is what DD must try to figure out and teach Harry. Maybe the reason Sirius had to die was to teach Harry control of his emotions. LPO

Choices - Dec 29, 2004 10:28 am (#1572 of 2971)

Solitaire....I was just wondering if Rita were exposed by Hermione or someone else, and her story were in the headlines for all to see, if it might not cause her to experience a change of heart and become "nicer"? Maybe not....

vball man - Dec 29, 2004 10:35 am (#1573 of 2971)

Couldn't Rita just go register? Once she has, its their word against hers about how long she's been doing it.

Ludicrous Patents Office - Dec 29, 2004 10:38 am (#1574 of 2971)

If she registered she should get punished for waiting so long. I wonder if there is a loop hole somewhere? LPO

John Bumbledore - Dec 29, 2004 12:00 pm (#1575 of 2971)

In the muggle world, (at least the state I am in) you are required to transfer your driving lisence withing 30 days of becoming a resident. But, do they check your answer when they ask you... "how long have you lived in this state?" No.

In WW,

MoM, dept of animagi registration (AR): "so how long have you been able to correctly transfigure to your animagus form?"
New Animagus (NA): "Ah, just 28 days. I wanted to be sure I had it nailed down before I registered."
AR: "Good, that is long enough for your features to be stablized. Please transform and I will take a picture for our records."

Etc.. (John) Bumbledore

Solitaire - Dec 29, 2004 12:18 pm (#1576 of 2971)

I don't know ... I think that Hermione and others might be able to shoot down that 28-day claim--although it would probably mean revealing information they would rather not give up. If it were possible to make the claim successfully, I think Rita would have done so by now. JM2K, of course ...

Solitaire

mike miller - Dec 29, 2004 2:12 pm (#1577 of 2971)

Outstanding series of posts here, Solitaire (take 25 points for post #1559), LPO, Choices, Ann and Mask.

Harry, being a victim of injustice, cannot tolerate it any way, shape, size or fashion. Harry has had to operate without complete knowledge ever since coming to Hogwarts. DD has admitted he should have told Harry everything much earlier. The challenge before DD, et al., is not to overload Harry. The puzzle of defeating Voldemort must be layed out in such a way that Harry will put the pieces together himself.

I think the other event that must take place is a coming to terms with Snape. Harry does not trust Severus, yet he may be the best source of information about Voldemort and his weaknesses.

Ann - Dec 29, 2004 3:27 pm (#1578 of 2971)

vball man: "Couldn't Rita just go register? Once she has, it's their word against hers about how long she's been doing it."

Great observation! I think she could probably register safely, but then people would know she could do it. Word would probably get around really fast, particularly among the people she'd annoyed. They'd know to be suspicious of any bugs. Can't you just see Wizarding World celebrities (the Weird Sisters, say, or important ministry officials, or Harry) ferociously swatting anything that buzzed? Things could get really dangerous for her!

That said, I just noticed this morning when I was looking up something else that JKR said in her Edinburgh book fair chat "There's more to come on Rita." It's sort of buried in the paragraph--I don't think people have made much of it.

Uh...this doesn't have much to do with Harry, does it?

Choices - Dec 29, 2004 5:09 pm (#1579 of 2971)

Ann - "Uh...this doesn't have much to do with Harry, does it?"

Relax Ann - I think everything that we discuss in all threads has something to do with Harry - either directly or indirectly.

Ludicrous Patents Office - Dec 29, 2004 5:55 pm (#1580 of 2971)

Thank you Mike. Severus is a valuable source of information. I agree, Harry will have to put the pieces of the puzzle together to learn how to defeat Voldemort. There are so many connections between Tom/Voldemort and the people who care for Harry. I am certain whatever the solution is it will involve all of them.

Ann LOL I love the idea of everyone swatting at any insect near them. That would hamper Rita's style. LPO

Solitaire - Dec 29, 2004 7:19 pm (#1581 of 2971)

Thanks, Mike. And I do agree that the Snape-Harry connection is going to have to undergo some major improvements on each side for both of them to function at their best. By willingly setting aside their hostilities and cooperating, they could truly make an awesome team--but I feel the respect is going to have to come from both sides.

Harry is going to have to stop suspecting and blaming Snape at every turn (not easy!), and Snape is going to have to face facts and admit that Harry does, indeed, have talents and abilities, and that he is neither his father nor Sirius (about time!). Then they can both get on with the business at hand--joining forces to defeat Voldemort.

Solitaire

MickeyCee3948 - Dec 29, 2004 9:33 pm (#1582 of 2971)

Back to Rita. Luna was in the Three Broomsticks when Hermione had Harry relate his story to Rita. She may not appear very bright(seems to be a hangover from the 60's)but Hermione did come right out and threaten Rita with the information that she was an unregistered animagus so Luna could drop that bit of information to her dad at any time she wants to...

Mikie

Solitaire - Dec 29, 2004 9:51 pm (#1583 of 2971)

Whoa! Good catch, Mikie!

scoop2172000 - Dec 30, 2004 5:25 am (#1584 of 2971)

But would Luna's father attack Rita in print?

Rita interviewed Harry about what went on in the graveyard, and she wrote the story for The Quibbler. The edition in which the story appeared sold out, and after Voldemort was seen in the Ministry of Magic, Luna's father got money for selling the interview story to The Daily Prophet.

Seems to me Mr. Lovegood would be eager to hire Rita, having her write more stories for his magazine. She'd be great at writing stories critical of the Ministry.

wwtMask - Dec 30, 2004 5:28 am (#1585 of 2971)

Or it could be a bit of useful..."leverage", shall we say, to convince Rita to do a regular column in the Quibbler.

Resolving the antagonism between Snape and Harry seems to be key to the stories. I, for one, hope that Snape is the one that steps forward to put an end to a problem that he instigated. Otherwise, I doubt I'll ever be able to respect him as an adult, regardless of anything else he does.

mike miller - Dec 30, 2004 7:47 am (#1586 of 2971)

If "choice" is at the heart of the series, Harry and Severus will have to choose to work together. They each are responsible for the current state of their relationship; although I place greater blame on Severus. He was in the stronger position being the adult AND has carried his animosity towards Harry from day one.

I can see Harry being willing to "bury the hatchet"; but, it will need to be Severus who takes the first steps. It may even require Severus to prove his intentions in some way to prevent Harry from being suspicious of Snape's motives.

Ludicrous Patents Office - Dec 30, 2004 8:13 am (#1587 of 2971)

Harry began to see a different side of Snape after he broke into Snape's memories and saw Snape's worst memory. It is hard to feel sympathy for someone you loathe. It is easier to blame and feel hate. Which is where Harry was at the end of OoP. Hopefully both Harry and Snape will consider what they have seen about each others past. Snape did question Harry about the dog. Harry has more in common with Snape than James. Mike, I agree it will have to be a choice they make. LPO

Madame Pomfrey - Dec 30, 2004 9:11 am (#1588 of 2971)

I agree LPO.Harry and Snape have more in common than either of them realize.Both have had an unhappy upbringing/family life,both have been taunted and ridiculed by classmates and both have the respect of Dumbledore among other things.I would have thought that the occumulens lessons and pensieve would lessen the feelings of hatred they have for one another.

scoop2172000 - Dec 30, 2004 9:25 am (#1589 of 2971)

Unfortunately, the pensieve incident seems to have intensified Snape's hatred of Harry. When Snape learned that Harry now knew about his (Snape's) humiliation, Snape's reaction was to completely lose control and nearly harm Harry physically.

librarian314 - Dec 30, 2004 10:37 am (#1590 of 2971)

Hey all!

I have thought for a while now that one of the obstacles Harry will have to overcome in order to defeat Voldemort is his animosity towards Prof. Snape.

We've seen that Harry has a lot of love, in all it's various forms (mostly platonic but familial and the care one shows other humans and living creatures in general, as well), in his heart. Just think of everyone he rescues. Some are friends, some are family (even if they hate him (Dudley)), some have no relation to him at all (Gabrielle, Fleur's sister) and some (Peter Pettigrew) have harmed him and don't necessarily deserve his mercy.

My guess is that at some point, probably in HBP, Harry will rescue the Potions Master. He will show that his love of humanity has grown such that he can put aside his own personal feelings of loathing and help those who have actively hurt him. (Snape may not have physically harmed Harry but he has inflicted quite a number of emotional hurts and many believe that emotional wounds take far longer to heal than physical ones.)

As much as I'd like the dread professor to show some maturity and act his age, I think in this instance, Harry will have to be the one to make the overture towards Snape, as it is beyond the professor's capabilities. Harry is one of that man's weaknesses, in that he can not get past what his father (who has been dead now for ~15 years) and his father's friends did ~20 years ago.

Harry, being young and still somewhat idealistic, will be able to set aside his feelings and do what needs to be done. Whether or not the professor will be able to deal with the aftermath is up to speculation, he could well continue the animosity that he felt towards James or his heart could thaw somewhat.

In overcoming his feelings towards Snape, Harry will strengthen the love that is within him and make him stronger in that force that he has and Voldemort has not for the final confrontation.

Y'all take care!

# *michelle the librarian**

Ann - Dec 30, 2004 11:03 am (#1591 of 2971)

I agree with Michelle, although for different reasons. Harry will have to be the one who takes the first step towards improving the relationship between Harry and Snape. Not just because it is more likely that he will be able to (the fact that he is younger and nicer and has less "face" to lose than Snape would), but because he owes Snape a huge apology.

Harry actively chose to go into that pensieve, knowing what it was, knowing that it contained things that Snape had especially put there to keep hidden from him. What he saw there was an unconscionable violation of Snape's privacy, much as he enjoyed (in parts) the opportunity to see his father. I wonder, too, what would have happened if Snape had not yanked him out of there. Assuming Snape ever had a love life, Harry might just as easily have seen that, or perhaps some of his much-regretted activities with the DEs. It seems likely to me that some of Snape's rage may stem from the thought of Harry's potentially invading his other very private memories.

And Harry himself knows that there are things that should be kept private--he resented Snape's seeing his kiss with Cho--so he should be able to empathize. Snape has said and done some pretty horrible things to Harry, I agree; but I don't think he's ever done anything quite so baldly immoral, except possibly his violence in removing Harry from the pensieve (which is also unacceptable, if somewhat understandable in the circumstances).

The advantage of Harry's apologizing is that Snape will not expect it; it is something (at least in Snape's view) that James would not think of doing--Snape assumes that James (and by extension, Harry) would be more likely to spread the story around. An apology, particularly if it is revealed that Harry has told no one what he saw, would force Snape to accept the fact that Harry isn't James, and might lead to his considering Harry in a more mature manner than he has thus far. I am fairly sure that any concession Snape makes will be matched and raised by Harry and lead to a rapprochment. The question is whether Snape will make that first concession, even if given an opportunity.

Ludicrous Patents Office - Dec 30, 2004 12:12 pm (#1592 of 2971)

One thing that may prevent either Snape or Harry from making the first move is embarrassment. It is difficult to face someone who has seen your most humiliating experiences. It gives that person power over you. The reaction is to strike out at him. Harry desperately wanted to blame Snape for everything. It was easier than admitting he or Sirius had made mistakes. LPO

wwtMask - Dec 30, 2004 1:06 pm (#1593 of 2971)

Ann, I can see where you're coming from, but, as bad as what Harry did was, Snape has years of unwarranted animosity, humiliation, and general unfairness towards Harry that he must answer for before he deserves anything from Harry. Taking out his hatred for James on an innocent child and using his authority as a teacher to harm Harry is unconsionable (if he wasn't a general pain-in-the-you-know-what to all non-slytherins, he'd probably be out of a job). In a way, I feel that Snape asked for what happened by constantly attacking Harry verbally and goading him when he knew that Harry could not retaliate. The pensieve was an extremely good opportunity for Harry to get back at Snape.

Potions Mistress - Dec 30, 2004 1:57 pm (#1594 of 2971)

I didn't really see Harry breaking into the pensieve as an act of revenge against Snape--rather, I saw it as curiousity that eventually spun out of control. BTW, we've seen how Harry's curiousity leads him to do some potentially dangerous things--like DD's pensieve in GoF. I'm thinking Harry might want to start heeding that warning about curiousity and the cat, esp. with LV on the loose again!

While I agree that a building of respect and forgiveness on the parts of both Harry and Snape will probably be key to LV's downfall, I also think this will prove one (if not THE) greatest obstacle to said downfall. Snape has this irrational hatred of Harry stemming from James (over 20 years ago) and Harry's irrational hatred comes from Sirius' death, which he blames Snape for. (Which bugs me, because if Harry were to step back and look at it more objectively and listen to DD, he'd realize that Snape was not involved in Sirius' death.) Both of them must get over their mutual antipathy for each other for the greater good. (Only 197 more days until HBP.)

~pm

PS: Awesome post (1559, I think) Solitaire. What house are you in--you're analysis struck as very "Ravenclawish." Oh well, whatever house, take another 25 points...and a butterbeer on me.

Solitaire - Dec 30, 2004 2:39 pm (#1595 of 2971)

Potions Mistress, I've been sorted on more than one site at different times and have answered some questions differently, depending on my mood ... yet each time, I wind up in Gryffindor. I have no idea how this happens, because I am the biggest chicken on the face of the earth. Also, I do tend to plan ahead and think things through before barging blindly into situations, which is more the mark of a Ravenclaw.

It must be some other factors that tip me toward Gryffindor. Perhaps it is the fact that, as a teacher, I feel a strong sense of "stewardship" and responsibility toward my students and what they achieve. I suppose that's kind of "Harry-like." And thank you for the compliment.

And now, about Harry ...

As much as I'd like the dread professor to show some maturity and act his age, I think in this instance, Harry will have to be the one to make the overture towards Snape

I believe it was Michelle who said this, and I concur. Snape is a big one to tell Harry to master his emotions, if you ask me! He has been unable to master his emotions with regard to James and Sirius (and even Remus, to an extent) for twenty years! In fact, he is so unable to master his feelings about them that he takes his revenge and hatred out on James's son!

Whatever has happened during Harry's time at Hogwarts, it must be remembered that Snape threw down the gauntlet. Harry was not dragging a grudge against Snape when he arrived at Hogwarts. Harry is certainly not blameless regarding things that have happened over the years--particularly in OotP. Still, it was Snape who set the tone of their relationship from the beginning, and it has been Snape who has stoked the fires of animosity with unfairness, anger, resentment, and cruelty every day since then.

Solitaire

MickeyCee3948 - Dec 30, 2004 6:03 pm (#1596 of 2971)

Does everyone remember Harry's first nite at Hogwarts when Snape first looked into Harry's eyes. He felt a stab of pain in his scar. Also Snape took every chance to humiliate Harry in his first class, even though you would figure that DD has let Snape know what Harry's background has been. So I won't blame Harry for any of the problems. Snape is an adult and supposedly mature enough to be a man but his first contacts with Harry are painful and humiliating.

Mikie

edited: Cross Posts with you Solitaire.

Steve Newton - Dec 30, 2004 6:19 pm (#1597 of 2971)

Mikie, Its been a while but wasn't the first night pain actually from the back of Quirrell's head? Or is this movie contamination?

MickeyCee3948 - Dec 30, 2004 6:24 pm (#1598 of 2971)

Page 126-American Edition PS/SS -"It happened very suddenly. The hook-nosed teacher looked past Quirrell's turban straight into Harry's eyes--and a sharp, hot pain shot across the scar on Harry's forehead.

Mikie

Choices - Dec 30, 2004 6:54 pm (#1599 of 2971)

I always took that to be from Quirrell/Voldemort. However, I think JKR wrote it that way to try to fool us into believing it was Snape. She wanted us to believe he was the bad guy until she was ready to let us in on the fact that it was Quirrell/Voldemort.

Also wanted to ask - has anyone else wondered why in COS Harry's scar never bothered him when he was talking to Tom Riddle in the chamber? Is it because Tom wasn't real - only a memory, or is it because he wasn't yet a full-fledged Voldemort who had marked Harry?

# MickeyCee3948 - Dec 30, 2004 7:08 pm (#1600 of 2971)

I think it was because as you say Tom wasn't real. I believe that the scar is part of Voldemort. The part of him that he lost when he attacked Harry which was well after he was Tom Riddle. The ultimate solution will be how Harry can destroy what is inside of the scar before Voldemort can kill Harry and retrieve for lack of a better word his "essence".

Mikie

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Steve Newton - Dec 30, 2004 7:44 pm (#1601 of 2971)

Mikie, to me that quotation says that Quirrell/Lord V caused the pain. As Choices says, it was to throw us off of the real villain.

Solitaire - Dec 30, 2004 8:29 pm (#1602 of 2971)

Even with movie contamination, I believed it was Voldemort looking at Harry that caused the pain (after seeing the end, that is). Remember that in the movie, Quirrell's back was to Harry, so Voldemort would have been looking straight at him (I just watched PS/SS this afternoon).

From the expression on his face and his surreptitious sideways glance at Quirrell, Snape appeared to have seen what happened, I think, and guessed that Harry's scar had hurt him for some reason. I believe this caused further suspicion of Quirrell (and it seemed Snape had suspected Quirrell for a while). But I believe Harry associated the pain with Snape right up until the end of the book--as did many of us who saw the movie before reading the book.

Sadly, Snape's behavior toward Harry for the rest of PS/SS and the next four books has done little to give Harry pause or a reason to re-evaluate his opinions about Snape. It's too bad Snape was not able to master his feelings where Harry was concerned and treat him more fairly. I believe he has lost a lot of opportunities to mentor Harry and strengthen his abilities as a Wizard. Harry may have learned and grown in spite of Snape's treatment of him. Just think how he might have grown and developed had Snape adopted a more adult attitude. I'm not suggesting he be another Remus. Moody, for example, is hardly tactful and nurturing; but he is fair, and that goes a long way with Harry. I think Snape has blown a lot of opportunities.

Solitaire

Weeny Owl - Dec 30, 2004 8:41 pm (#1603 of 2971)

From a JKR interview in October of 1999:

SB: Why in the first book does Harry’s lightening scar flash, or when he gets his lightening scar flash, when Snap looks at him?

JKR: Snape.

SB: Snape.

JKR: Okay, this is a… [laughter]

SB: I have a problem as well!

JKR: He’s sleep deprived, he’s got five-month old twins. Um… *exasperated noise* If anyone hasn’t finished reading book one, would they please put their fingers really tightly in their ears now, if they don’t want the ending ruined? Really tightly now, cause this is a question about the ending. Um…Quirrell had the back of his head to Harry at the point when Harry looked at Snape, so someone else was looking at Harry through a certain turban. See what I mean? If you’ve read it, you understand, and if you haven’t read it, you’re going what? But that’s okay.

The bold is mine, but it wasn't Snape who caused Harry's scar to hurt; it was Voldemort.

MickeyCee3948 - Dec 30, 2004 9:04 pm (#1604 of 2971)

I agree with all of you that it was Voldemort but Harry didn't know that and attached the pain to Snape. Thus his first glance at Snape was painful and foretelling of things to come.

Mikie

septentrion - Dec 31, 2004 1:34 am (#1605 of 2971)

I agree that Snape should be the one to take the first step for a kind of reconciliation with Harry. Yet, he isn't able to do it because he cna't master his emotions, so Harry should do it because he has the ability to overcome his emotions for the greater good. I firmly believe that if Harry was persuaded it'd be necessary to defeat LV to reconcile with Snape, he'd do it, not for Snape's sake but for saving the Wizarding World.

Ludicrous Patents Office - Dec 31, 2004 7:39 am (#1606 of 2971)

Snape and Harry need to master anger. Snape has mastered his other emotions to point of nonexistence. Harry wears his heart on his sleeve. They both are prone to losing their tempers. It makes them very vulnerable. Until they can master anger it will be difficult to work together. LPO

Solitaire - Dec 31, 2004 8:40 am (#1607 of 2971)

LPO: Snape has mastered his other emotions to point of nonexistence.

Boy, if that isn't the truth! I wonder, though, whether it is only anger they need to master or something else. I think it is raw anger and volatile emotion on Harry's part--combined with a certain amount of "established" dislike, mistrust, and animosity; if he is unable to let go of it, however, I can see it festering into pure, true hatred. If this happens, he will be seriously crippled in his ability to fight Voldemort, because it is Harry's heart that is his strongest weapon. If that becomes "impaired," so will his ability to fight Voldemort.

Where Snape is concerned, I believe the emotion is less anger than it is bitterness and resentment. What's more, it has been festering for so many years--like a big, ugly sore--that it has infected his entire emotional being and has already begun to affect his sense of logic. Why else would we see him taking such relish in tormenting an innocent kid (which Harry was at the beginning when Snape started all of this)? I fear it is going to take a major (and possibly devastating) event to open this ugly "abcess" on Snape's heart and drain out the poison.

Solitaire

T Brightwater - Dec 31, 2004 4:37 pm (#1608 of 2971)

There are two people who have considerable amounts of trust and sympathy for both Snape and Harry, and of those two, Dumbledore is probably not going to force any kind of truce on them, partially because he's in a position of power relative to both of them which makes things a little tense and awkward, and partially because he saw how well it worked with Sirius and Snape. Lupin's the man. He didn't actively persecute Snape, at least as far as we know, and he has made at least a few attempts to mend fences, even after Snape did him out of one of the few jobs he's ever had. He's a powerful example of self-restraint and forgiveness for Harry.

PS Great posts, Solitaire!

Potions Mistress - Dec 31, 2004 5:02 pm (#1609 of 2971)

T Brightwater, I think you are right when you say that DD cannot/will not force a truce between Harry and Snape. He saw how well that worked with Sirius, and with all the bitterness and acrimony stemming from Sirius' death (esp. on Harry's part), I don't think that DD could force a truce even if he wanted to. I think you're right when you say that if a truce is to come about, then it would probably be best coming from Lupin, who has a better ability to see both sides of the issue. BTW, could you copy your post to the Lupin thread, also?

On a different note: assuming Harry survives the series, how does everybody think he is going to deal with a "normal" life? How is he going to make that transistion from being the one who (had to) save the WW to going to a quiet(er) life?

~pm

Madame Pomfrey - Jan 1, 2005 9:02 am (#1610 of 2971)

If he becomes an auror he will in a way still be saving the wizarding world- from dark wizards.I cant see Harry's life being very sedate.I would think he would find that kind of life boring after all the excitement he has seen.A quiet,boring life would probably remind him of his years with the Dursley's.

Solitaire - Jan 1, 2005 10:11 am (#1611 of 2971)

Good point, Madame P. In fact, I think it is very likely the opportunity to finally get out and DO something in the WW--that "thirst to prove yourself" the Sorting Hat mentioned, perhaps?--that has contributed to Harry's successes.

The Dursleys' certain knowledge that Harry would out-perform The Dud at anything he attempted probably contributed to their efforts to keep him squashed down and (in their minds) "in his place." They certainly did not allow him any creative opportunities, did they? In fact, they totally discouraged the development of the imagination, something that must be present and cultivated, if one is to dream and aspire. No wonder they are so dull.

Solitaire

LooneyLuna - Jan 1, 2005 10:46 am (#1612 of 2971)

I think Harry would make an excellent teacher. Sure, he could become an Auror, but after defeating/vanguishing Voldemort, how could he top that career-wise? Oh, ho hum, another day defeating subpar evil people - yawn. Smile

MickeyCee3948 - Jan 1, 2005 1:09 pm (#1613 of 2971)

Careful folks you are making an awful good reason for Harry not to survive Book 7.

Mikie

Hollywand - Jan 1, 2005 2:34 pm (#1614 of 2971)

Dumbledore had a wonderful career after defeating Grindewald. Maybe Harry will study alchemy with Dumbledore.

Ludicrous Patents Office - Jan 1, 2005 2:38 pm (#1615 of 2971)

Yikes Mickie! I hope that is not the case. I agree with LooneyLuna Harry would make a great teacher. That is one job that is never boring!

Solitaire "abcess" perfectly describes Snape's emotional state. I hope we get some back story as to why he is on DD's side. Everything about him fits as a Death Eater. I agree also that Lupin will have to help Harry see how Snape helped him and did not cause Sirius' death. I don't think he has much influence on Snape to help him cease bothering Harry. LPO

Solitaire - Jan 1, 2005 2:47 pm (#1616 of 2971)

I agree, LPO, that Harry will have to be the adult in this scenario, if any healing is to happen between them. Snape is "stuck." He is unable to move past this obstacle in his life. Remus is realistically the one who can help, because he has known Snape's venom and meanness, and yet he has been able to get past it for the good of Harry, the Order, etc. Hopefully, Harry will see that Remus is the role model to follow in this area ... not Snape.

Solitaire

Ludicrous Patents Office - Jan 1, 2005 2:58 pm (#1617 of 2971)

The similarities between Harry and Snape are frightening. I hope Harry does see Remus as a role model and does not allow his anger and bitterness to rule his life. The good thing about Harry is he does not like to be mean or cruel. He feels bad when he hurts people. Harry is well aware his parents loved him. He also realizes the love other people are giving him. I'm not sure Snape has ever felt loved. LPO

haymoni - Jan 1, 2005 5:10 pm (#1618 of 2971)

Goodness!

After Harry defeats Voldy, I hope he gets to do something fun and care-free, like playing Quidditch for a living.

I could see him playing Quidditch until he retires and then running for office.

Ann - Jan 1, 2005 6:25 pm (#1619 of 2971)

LooneyLuna: "Oh, ho hum, another day defeating subpar evil people - yawn."

It's hard to imagine that Voldemort is the only, or even the most evil person/being out there. After all, Dumbledore defeated Grindelwald, then was faced with Voldemort. Evil wizards probably turn up pretty frequently. And then, of course, there are all those other dark beings. I can see Harry having a real career that rivaled Lockhart's fictional one in excitement and useful work.

Also, there are all those non-dark but nonetheless nasty people to fight, like Umbridge and Fudge and Crouch Sr. and Snape. Harry's knowledge of them may prove useful in his career, too. I don't see his future life (and I assume he's going to have one) being boring, but I don't see it being exactly carefree, either. Happy, I hope, but I don't think Harry would enjoy carefree. Quidditch is for fun.

Ydnam96 - Jan 1, 2005 6:39 pm (#1620 of 2971)

Hmmm...what to do with Harry at the end is a problem. Happily ever after won't work. Killing him (while an option, will make lots of people mad). Harry isn't gonna just sit idely for the rest of his life. I can't really see him as a teacher or a desk worker at the Ministry. But I don't see him as a super hero like person, saving the world for the rest of his life. Hmmmm...when he's done some growing up I think he would make a good Headmaster....

Ludicrous Patents Office - Jan 1, 2005 8:33 pm (#1621 of 2971)

If he plays Quidditch I hope he does not wind up like Ludo! LPO

Potions Mistress - Jan 1, 2005 8:37 pm (#1622 of 2971)

Oh, that would be bad!

~pm

Nicole Bloom - Jan 1, 2005 10:52 pm (#1623 of 2971)

Given all of the bad DADA teacher, with the exception of Lupin of course and to an extent Crouch Jr., I think that Harry would make an excellent one merely because of his experience. He's already shown his capabilites while teaching the DA. I can see him morphing the teaching styles of Lupin and Moody(Crouch Jr.) into his own style of teaching and being very successful at it. I think it would give him satisfaction to teach others and the kids would love it.

Solitaire - Jan 1, 2005 10:56 pm (#1624 of 2971)

Harry did enjoy teaching the DA, but I'm not sure whether that was for the teaching itself, the chance to practice defensive magic, or the fact that he was doing it under Umbridge's nose--in essence thumbing his nose at her.

Solitaire

septentrion - Jan 2, 2005 4:17 am (#1625 of 2971)

JKR chat transcript (March 4th 2004) : gazza: will harry become head master of hogwarts JK Rowling replies -> I'm not sure I can see Harry in an academic career, he's seen so much action!

Isn't that a hint that Harry won't become a teacher ?

MickeyCee3948 - Jan 2, 2005 8:20 am (#1626 of 2971)

I would take it as one septentrion. I agree with JKR. How is Harry going to settle into teaching with everything that has gone on for the last 7 years. An augor would probably fit him more but I am afraid he could become a Moody copy. Paranoid and seeing DE's behind every corner.

Mikie

Solitaire - Jan 2, 2005 9:07 am (#1627 of 2971)

I suppose there are different ways to look at things. Teaching could seem pretty boring after what Harry has done. Then again, he might appreciate a little less action and excitement for a few years. He could teach the DADA class. Those teachers never do stick around long.

I suppose we could also look at Dumbledore's educational career. It hardly seems to have been dull, what with having both Tom Riddle and Harry Potter on his hands! If Harry wound up with a student like himself, life would hardly be dull!

Harry loves Quidditch, and he has not had much opportunity to play recently. There was no Quidditch in GoF, and he was suspended for most of the OotP games. He may be itching to get back on his broom and play, by the end of the series. I can see him putting in a few years of professional play. That would be fun, exciting, and certainly a break from all the Dark activity.

In the end, I think Harry will probably become an Auror. I also hope he eventually (we may not see this but rather be led to expect it in the future) marries and has the warm, loving family life that was denied him as a child. I believe he deserves that.

Solitaire

Ludicrous Patents Office - Jan 2, 2005 9:46 am (#1628 of 2971)

Solitaire I like your scenario. I think Harry will pursue the Auror course. He is used to taking the hard route. Becoming a Auror is the best training for fighting Voldemort. I hope he survives to have a family. LPO

Solitaire - Jan 5, 2005 11:12 pm (#1629 of 2971)

I posted the following on the Luna thread in response to a suggestion that Harry was too emotionally limited for Luna. Elanor suggested that I post it here, as it pertains to Harry ...

I certainly do not see Harry as someone with limited emotions at all. On the contrary, I think we have observed an incredible range of emotions from someone who was raised in a dysfunctional home with dysfunctional people and never given an ounce of tenderness at all between the ages of one and eleven. He is amazingly well-adjusted!

It is true that the overriding emotion we see in Harry in OotP was anger. But I think that anger stemmed largely from feelings of fear, helplessness, ignorance of the facts, deprivation (by Umbridge) of almost any contact with the closest thing he can remember to a parent (Sirius), and, finally, the death of that loved one. You see Harry's all-consuming desire to save Sirius as "brave recklesness." I see it as a fear of losing the person he has come to love very deeply. I think we can see the extent of the love Harry felt for Sirius by the simple fact that he was so overflowing with it that Voldemort couldn't even bear being in his body.

Granted, Harry's anger at Dumbledore over Sirius's death--once they are back at school--is somewhat misplaced. He behaves a lot like a child in that scene. But I think a lot of that rage is the expression of a grief that has cut him to the quick--a grief so terrible he doesn't even know how to express the pain. Until he is able to express that pain and sorrow, he will certainly not able to acknowledge his own contribution to the circumstances that led to Sirius's death. When he does, though, I fear the pain accompanying that acceptance will be acute.

Regarding more tender emotions ... toward the end of PS/SS, we see him so overcome with emotion at the gift Hagrid gives him--the album full of photos of his parents that Hagrid got from the Potters' old friends--that he is unable to speak.

His reaction seems much the same at the end of OotP, when he sees all of the Order members, the twins, Ron and Hermione--and Mrs. Weasley hugging him again. He somehow could not find words to tell them what it meant to him, to see them all ranged there, on his side. Instead he smiled, raised a hand in farewell ...

Harry also seems pretty capable of experiencing the old butterflies in the stomach when he is around Cho ... although she brings a lot of complicated feelings and baggage with her. Yes, a lot of this is hormone-related; but his feelings seem pretty strong for what must be a first love.

Harry certainly had strong feelings when he was trying to describe the events in the graveyard to Dumbledore and Sirius. When he got to the part about his parents coming out of Voldemort's wand--he became too choked up to talk. Later, in the hospital, when Mrs. Weasley hugged him--He had no memory of ever being hugged like this, as though by a mother. The full weight of everything he had seen that night seemed to fall in upon him as Mrs. Weasley held him to her. His mother's face, his father's voice, the sight of Cedric, dead on the ground all started spinning in his head until he could hardly bear it, until he was screwing up his face against the howl of misery fighting to get out of him."

In PoA, we see him experiencing feelings of joy at discovering Sirius, the amazing sadness when he felt he was immediately going to lose him ... He is even able to experience the complex emotions that go along with knowing he has helped Sirius become free, yet he is sad because he won't be able to be with him and see him, since Sirius has to go into hiding.

I don't know ... I can think of a lot of things for which people might criticize Harry. Somehow, having limited emotions certainly isn't one of them. If anything, I find Luna to be a bit emotionally limited, compared to Harry!

Solitaire

Eric Bailey - Jan 6, 2005 5:42 am (#1630 of 2971)

It's not that Luna doesn't have emotions. She controls them. You never know what she's thinking until she chooses to reveal it. That's something Harry needs to learn to do, and fast.

Aside from the obvious reason (so he won't go CAPS LOCK on people. Gives them headaches), there's something more important, here. Luna's very empathic. Most people are an open book, to her. Yet, she, herself, is virtually unreadable. What does this have to do with Harry, you may ask? What were the things he needed to learn about in OotP that he failed miserably at? Legilimency and Occlumency, being able to read others and keeping others from reading you. The keys would appear to be sensitivity and emotional control. That's why Snape couldn't teach him. he can't maintain his own emotional control where Harry's concerned.

Solitaire - Jan 6, 2005 8:21 am (#1631 of 2971)

Eric, you are correct. We do not necessarily know that Luna is limited emotionally. I "misspoke." What I meant was that she is less demonstrative than Harry. As Snape has said, Harry does "wear his heart on his sleeve." I guess it is just that--in most circumstances--some of us do not necessarily see this as a failing. I like people who are "transparent"; I am able to trust them more easily than those I feel are concealing things.

Sadly, however, this "transparency" is dangerous for Harry, because of his association with Voldemort. His sensitivity and transparency make him vulnerable in the most dangerous and revealing ways. The issue of self control is also important for Harry, because he is so obviously in the public eye. People who find themselves there--even through no faults of their own--are subject to harsher criticisms than the rest of us, who can have our occasional "meltdowns" in relative privacy.

Since Harry has entered the Wizarding World, privacy has gone out the window. Everything he does is "news." This is rough, particularly for a kid, who needs to be able to make mistakes if he is to grow and mature. It's hard, though, to see your mistakes splashed all over the headlines and watch yourself become the fodder of jokes and ridicule for people like the Malfoys and Fudges of the world.

So, sadly, I believe Harry will have to begin being more secretive. I guess it is the price he must pay for being who he is.

Solitaire

Potions Mistress - Jan 6, 2005 1:34 pm (#1632 of 2971)

That seems like an awfully high price to pay, considering that Harry didn't even ask for all of it...

~pm

dizzy lizzy - Jan 6, 2005 3:25 pm (#1633 of 2971)

This is something else I was thinking about. Why is it Harry who always responds to Voldemort's attempts to kill/injure him?? When will Harry turn the tables and do the reverse??

I think Harry will realise that (if he wants to live) he no longer can be the hunted and now he has to be the hunter. That would tie in with what Solitaire(and others) have said that Harry may have to learn to be more secretive of his emotions and learn those darn skills of Occlumency/Legilimency.

The only thing that really saddens me about the whole series is that although Harry said he was "just Harry" in the first book; he has never had the chance to be "just Harry". He has spent the past 5-6 years living in what looks awfully like a fishbowl and everyone commenting on every aspect of your life.

It is, unfortunately, a high price to pay isn't it.

Lizzy

edited for grammer

Ludicrous Patents Office - Jan 6, 2005 4:23 pm (#1634 of 2971)

Lizzy I agree. Harry is a victim. He needs to learn to take matters in his own hands and act on them. Voldemort made him an orphan, caused him to be raised in a hurtful environment, indirectly killed Sirius and a whole host of other things. Harry has to react to everything. He needs to learn how to master himself and act. I believe he can and will. He has proven himself to be a talented wizard and good fighter. He finds a way to survive. After saying all that I hope he does not become a loose unreasonable canon! I think Harry has an incredible range of emotion. He needs to learn to control them more. LPO

Ann - Jan 6, 2005 5:28 pm (#1635 of 2971)

I like the contrast Eric and Solitaire draw between Harry and Luna, with Harry being one extreme (in showing his emotions) and Luna being the other (in not showing hers). Obviously, one needs to find a middle ground, but people who are completely controlled are not, I think, to be trusted.

It made me think of a passage in Jane Austen's Persuasion (one of the most wonderful, romantic books ever written, for any of you who haven't yet had the pleasure, by the way). Anyway, in it, the heroine objects to an apparently perfect suitor of whom she thinks "There was never any burst of feeling, any warmth of indignation or delight, at the evil or good of others.... She felt that she could so much more depend upon the sincerity of those who sometimes looked or said a careless or a hasty thing, than of those whose presence of mind never varied, whose tongue never slipped."

Remembering that Rowling is a great Austen fan (direct quote from P&P in chapter one of PS/SS, two books--though not Persuasion--on the links page), I wonder if this something we should be looking out for.

That said, Eric, I love the phrase "going CAPSLOCK." Is it yours? Can I use it? It's really great.

Eric Bailey - Jan 6, 2005 5:45 pm (#1636 of 2971)

Well, people have referred to CAPSLOCK!Harry as one of his personas, so I don't know who originated it. It's come into common usage in some forums, though, so feel free. Smile

It's not just emotional control Harry needs to learn, though, but empathy. He's been kind of lacking, there. His own traumas have blinded him a bit to those of others. For example, Ginny had to remind him that she knew a little something about being posessed by Voldemort. So, learning empathy and self control would not only make him a better fighter against Voldemort, but a better guy to hang around with.

Ludicrous Patents Office - Jan 6, 2005 7:06 pm (#1637 of 2971)

Eric I agree, Harry needs to work on empathy. I think that he started feeling sympathy with Luna at the end of OoP. He has no idea how much people care about him. He is so wrapped up in himself he cannot see others. He has flashes of it. In GoF he sent Sirius food because he knew what it was like to be hungry. He felt genuinely bad when Ginny talked to him about being possessed by Voldemort. LPO

T Brightwater - Jan 7, 2005 6:18 am (#1638 of 2971)

And let's not forget his empathy with Snape after the Pensieve scene.

Ann - Jan 7, 2005 6:27 am (#1639 of 2971)

T, you are right; Harry did feel tremendous empathy for Snape after that. (And everyone's been assuming that Snape didn't realize how Harry felt about seeing his humiliation. I wonder, though, if Snape actually saw Harry's empathy in that scene, and whether that wasn't why he threw the jar after him. Pity, coming from Harry, might have been even harder to take than scorn.)

I would agree that Harry is actually quite good at empathy. It's just that, as LPO says, he's sometimes absorbed in himself and doesn't really look at other people properly. But his ability to empathize with others when he does look seems to me to be boundless. As he grows less self-absorbed, he will automatically becom more empathetic. I don't really think he needs to work on it.

vball man - Jan 7, 2005 7:39 am (#1640 of 2971)

He feels for the teachers that Umbridge is after. Even Trelawney, somewhat. But especially Hagrid.

wwtMask - Jan 7, 2005 11:19 am (#1641 of 2971)

In Harry's defense, who wouldn't feel self absorbed after all the stuff he's been through? It's hard to feel too sorry for others when you literally have the weight of the wizarding world on your shoulders. I can imagine it:

Harry: Oh, your girlfriend dumped you? Well, at least your parents weren't killed by Voldemort and you're not going to be forced to kill him or be killed by him yourself. And did I mention that the outcome of that battle will likely determine the fate of the world? Now what was your problem again?

Ok, so maybe that's a trivial example, but I imagine Harry considers most problems to be a major improvement over his life of infamy and danger.

Elanor - Jan 7, 2005 12:44 pm (#1642 of 2971)

Ann: T, you are right; Harry did feel tremendous empathy for Snape after that. (And everyone's been assuming that Snape didn't realize how Harry felt about seeing his humiliation. I wonder, though, if Snape actually saw Harry's empathy in that scene, and whether that wasn't why he threw the jar after him. Pity, coming from Harry, might have been even harder to take than scorn.)

I do agree Ann, because I always thought that Snape's worst fear was to be weak and that the motto of his life could be "better be feared than pitied". All of this hapenned very fast but Snape certainly didn't expect empathy from Harry. I hope that, time helping and now knowing what was Harry's childhood, Snape will learn from Harry's empathy. They will have to work together and to know each other is the first step towards respect and acceptance of the other one, even if they would never acknowlegde that they have something in common.

Choices - Jan 7, 2005 3:09 pm (#1643 of 2971)

Elanor - "better be feared than pitied".

I really like that Elanor and I think you are so right. I would love to see Harry and Snape thrown together - maybe doing something for the Order - where they would have to work together and maybe by so doing, they would come to respect each other - even if it was grudingly.

Ann - Jan 8, 2005 6:39 pm (#1644 of 2971)

I think if Voldemort had the sense to want Snape dead, dead, dead, he would be dead, dead, dead. But luckily, he's not....yet.

Thanks, Elanor. I hadn't tied it in to your "better feared than pitied" theme, but you're right of course. I've been thinking about Snape and pity lately. If it's not extracted forcibly or turned on oneself, pity is really a kind of love, isn't it? It is based on empathy and fellow feeling, but unlike a fuller kind of love (not being very clear here, I know) it is definitely not egalitarian, and therefore completely unbearable to those whose identity is closely tied to personal pride and dignity like Snape's is.

Elanor - Jan 9, 2005 1:20 pm (#1645 of 2971)

Thanks Ann! And I do agree as well. I was just wondering if Harry's pity/empathy was so unbearable for Snape because it reminded him Lily's pity/empathy we just saw in the pensieve scene. Harry has Lily's eyes, were those eyes looking at Snape as Lily's used to look at him?

Anyway, I don't think he would bear pity from anyone. "Weak people are to be pitied, and he is not weak, he will never be." That is what he thinks but I believe it is his greatest weakness in fact, not to be able to bear feelings of pity, or love, or just care. If the perfect armour of duty, coldness, pride and intellect he patiently built around him was to crack, what would remain of him? Would he be liberated or destroyed? I believe (hope) he would be liberated and that Harry, and only Harry, as the power of cracking that armour though none of them want it.

Does it make sense?

Ludicrous Patents Office - Jan 9, 2005 3:38 pm (#1646 of 2971)

Elanor I don't recall Snape mentioning Lily at all. He seems focused on James. If he sees Lily in Harry it may be difficult to say anything.

I don't know if Harry has the ability or will to crack Snape's armor. He has enough to be going on with. It may happen in the process of bringing down Voldemort. Personally I hope Snape would be liberated but I think he would be destroyed. LPO

Elanor - Jan 9, 2005 10:28 pm (#1647 of 2971)

Well, I don't think that Harry wants to crack Snape's armor but they have to work together, and Harry in a way is forcing Snape to look at a past that haunts him and I think the key of Snape's future lies in his past, and Harry's.

The fact that Snape never mentions Lily is interesting, all his hate is focused on the Marauders but don't seem to extend to her (as far as we know) because we should have heard him criticize her before IMO, if only on her muggle-born condition. In hte pensieve scene, her anger is focused on James but it is pity for Snape (for lack of a better word) that makes her say something. A pity Snape couldn't bear, hence the insult. But it is only the feeling I have when I read this scene.

About Voldemort wanting Snape dead, I think he may want him dead but let him live, for the moment, because he wants to use him. The day, Snape won't be useful anymore to his eyes, yes I think Snape will be in great trouble...

T Brightwater - Jan 10, 2005 8:32 pm (#1648 of 2971)

I just re-read "Snape's Worst Memory" and realized that this was yet another bit of damage that might have been prevented if DD had told Harry what was going on. Harry's motivation wasn't just sheer nosiness (though he has plenty of that), he thought Snape might have hidden information about that room in the Department of Mysteries of which he had been dreaming, and about which no one would tell him anything except "it's none of your business."

I still want to shout at him at that point - if only because he apparently doesn't know how to get out of a Pensieve on his own...

scoop2172000 - Jan 11, 2005 4:52 am (#1649 of 2971)

I wonder how Harry would get himself out of a Pensieve on his own if he had to.

Both times he's slipped into one, he had still been busy watching events unfold as the Pensieve's users (Dumbledore first and Snape second) had returned and caught him red-handed.

While we're on the subject, I wonder whether Dumbledore, if he takes over tutoring Harry on Occlumency, will loan Harry the Pensieve so that Harry can store thoughts he'd prefer Dumbledore not see. There's a lot of incriminating stuff rattling around in Harry's head: the Polyjuice Potion, the Maurauders Map, etc.

T Brightwater - Jan 11, 2005 9:48 am (#1650 of 2971)

I think DD already knows about the Polyjuice Potion; if Harry didn't mention it in his debriefing in DD's office after getting out of the Chamber of Secrets, Snape would surely have reported ingredients going missing from his private store cupboard, and DD could probably put two and two together - it's also possible Moaning Myrtle reports to him. He certainly knows about the map, since Moody/Crouch mentioned it in his confession.

However, scoop, there are other things he might want to hide even from DD - his encounters with Cho, the mud-throwing incident at the Shrieking Shack, or what he saw in Snape's Pensieve memory.

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Ludicrous Patents Office - Jan 11, 2005 5:09 pm (#1651 of 2971)

I think it would be good for DD to see some of Harry's memories. Especially how hurt and angry Harry was when DD was ignoring him. Though I agree there are some Harry would want to keep secret. LPO

Mrs Brisbee - Jan 11, 2005 8:05 pm (#1652 of 2971)

I think scoop has the right idea. Really, I was surprised that DD would think it important to lend Snape the Pensieve so he could protect his most secret memories, but not extend a similar courtesy to Harry. What was he thinking?

Hollywand - Jan 11, 2005 9:07 pm (#1653 of 2971)

You make a good point Mrs. Brisbee. If I may offer this analogy between the Pensieve and the Mirror of Erised:

Dumbledore allowed Harry to encounter the Mirror of Erised, to prepare him for the crucial trial where he would encounter it during his struggle with QuirrelMort, the final barrier to the Philosopher's Stone. A trial Harry wins because, in his heart, he has exactly the required sentiment to use the Stone for the greater good and not personal gain.

Dumbledore lets Harry know that he's been present and invisible during Harry's encounters with the Mirror of Erised, and by extension, probably other times as well.

Dumbledore knew Harry had dipped into the Pensieve during his encounter, probably allowed Harry the space and time to take this action.

Perhaps Dumbledore fully intended to bring Harry and Snape together through the Pensieve---a liquid mirror of compassion.

Harry does not love Snape, but he does have an gifted ability to appreciate Snape's suffering at the hands of his father, and his sense of justice is wounded. He wants Sirius to restore his idealization of his father, but Lupin and Sirius cannot do this.

Snape also has a sort of darkly compassionate gift, and as Elanor has noted, I think correctly, Snape's gift of Occlumency is a sort of compassion turned inward.

In this way, Dumbledore tests the mettle of both wizards. I think, I hope, the test will bear fruit in the later books.

Potions Mistress - Jan 12, 2005 9:02 am (#1654 of 2971)

Just a thought concerning the Philosopher's Stone (it occured to me whilst reading Hollywand's post): We know that the PS can create immortality (or at least extend life for a very, very long time) and is used in alchemy (gold production, for all intents and purposes). When Harry got it, I believe he didn't use it for personal gain for 2 reasons: 1)Most importantly, it would mean the return of LV and Harry understood the greater good concerning that and 2)perhaps not as important, but a possible reason nonetheless: Harry was 11 at the time. At Hogwarts, he had almost everything he could ever need or want: food, shelter, money in the bank, Quidditch, friends--and that he would continue to have those at Hogwarts. So besides the greater good of delaying LV's return, I don't think that 11 year old Harry really had any sort of personal use for the PS. That might've changed since then, but I also don't think that Harry would use the Stone for himself, but possibly for friends/the Order...All right, I'm starting to ramble. Thoughts?

~pm

Hollywand - Jan 12, 2005 9:52 am (#1655 of 2971)

That's a very interesting insight, Potions Mistress. Consider that Harry was willing to let go of life at the end of Order of the Phoenix. I'm not sure he has the same lust for immortality that Voldy showed as Tom Riddle at 15.

Harry's detachment and Pathos could be at the heart of "power the Dark Lord knows not"

Choices - Jan 12, 2005 9:55 am (#1656 of 2971)

Nice post Hollywand - I too hope Snape and Harry can come to some sort of terms where they can respect, if not like, each other.

MickeyCee3948 - Jan 12, 2005 10:00 am (#1657 of 2971)

Potions Mistress - If I'm not mistaken(never happen before)Dumbledore tells Harry as the end of PS/SS that the stone has been destroyed.

Mrs Brisbee - One reason Dumbledore may not have extended use of the Pensieve to Harry is that he doesn't know how to use it. I can imagine it is rather difficult to reach into you brain with you wand and remove a particular memory without removing other items. We definitely don't want Harry turning himself into a drooling/zombie type individual.

Mikie

Choices - Jan 12, 2005 10:18 am (#1658 of 2971)

Good thought Mickey - It never occurred to me, but I guess one wouldn't just know how to work the pensieve. I think you're right in that to use it, one would have to be shown how the process of removing and depositing a "thought" works and also how to retrieve thoughts.

Mrs Brisbee - Jan 12, 2005 12:56 pm (#1659 of 2971)

One reason Dumbledore may not have extended use of the Pensieve to Harry is that he doesn't know how to use it. I can imagine it is rather difficult to reach into you brain with you wand and remove a particular memory without removing other items. We definitely don't want Harry turning himself into a drooling/zombie type individual. --MickeyCee

Heehee. Good point. Actually upon reflection I think Dumbledore lent the Pensieve to Snape so Snape could remove information sensitive to the Order. Dumbledore had left teaching Occlumency too late, and there wasn't much choice in the pairing of teacher with student at that point.

DD tends to expect others can set aside their feelings when it is necessary to work for the Greater Good, and he forgets that since others aren't privy to the same information that he has that they might be veiwing the situation in a whole other light. T Brightwater made the observation a few posts back that if Harry had been told what was going on, curiosity wouldn't have driven him to stick his nose in the Pensieve. That's true, especially as the trust Harry had for Dumbledore had crumbled away. It is very important for a leader to be trusted be their followers if they expect their edicts to be followed, especially if the reason for their instructions aren't readily apparent.

Potions Mistress - Jan 12, 2005 1:32 pm (#1660 of 2971)

Ooh, good catch Mikie! I forgot that DD said the PS had been destroyed. Still, even if it wasn't I can't imagine Harry using it for himself. Adding to Hollywand's post, Harry doesn't have the same lust for immortality and power that Voldy seems to have. Harry is a good leader; people follow him because they want to, not because they are threatened by him, unlike Voldemort who operates out of charisma and fear (like Hitler)--for those who don't want to follow him anymore, it's too late. (Hope that is clear!)

~pm

Ann - Jan 12, 2005 2:33 pm (#1661 of 2971)

About the pensieve, it's been noted elsewhere, I think, that Harry has no idea how to get out of it. The first time he was escorted out by Dumbledore, the second time by Snape. Horrified as he was to have Snape find him there, it might have been much worse had Snape not found him. He could have been stuck for days. Going through all Snape's memories. (Remember, when he went into Dumbledore's memories, he saw three of them, one after the other.)

I think the reason Dumbledore gave Snape the pensieve was actually to protect Harry. Even at 16, I suspect that to deal with some of the things Snape can remember might be pretty soul-destroying. After all, look at what they've done to Snape himself, and he seems to be a pretty tough cookie.

Ludicrous Patents Office - Jan 12, 2005 6:22 pm (#1662 of 2971)

~pm and Hollywand I agree, I don't think Harry has that lust for power. He is uncomfortable with the spotlight. I think he just wants to be a kid and have fun. He was amazed in the first DA meeting that his students actually listened to him. I don't think immortality is important because he has loved ones who he may be reunited with when he dies. In fact dying holds a certain attraction.

Ann, what a horrible thought to be lost in Snape's worst memories! LPO

Solitaire - Jan 12, 2005 8:19 pm (#1663 of 2971)

Wouldn't he only be lost in the memories that Snape actually put into the Pensieve? And that reminds me ... what if there are other memories there ... memories that belong to Dumbledore? Or is this possible?

wwtMask - Jan 13, 2005 5:36 am (#1664 of 2971)

I feel certain that Dumbledore retrieved all of his memories before handing the pensieve over to Snape.

As to whether Dumbledore should've given Harry a way to protect his memories, I think it may have been deliberate on his part. Surely the idea of one someone he dislikes seeing his memories and thoughts would have spurred Harry on to becoming a good occlumens. Unfortunately for Dumbledore, all of Harry's worries and troubles were too distracting for this to be a good motivator.

Potions Mistress - Jan 13, 2005 9:38 am (#1665 of 2971)

Also, perhaps DD wanted Snape to see Harry in a different light as well--from the arrogant "James-clone" to a young man with his own distinct personality, life, and problems. Maybe DD wanted Snape to sympathize with Harry, knowing that he too had a terrible homelife. If that was the case though...alas, earwax!

~pm

Solitaire - Jan 13, 2005 11:07 am (#1666 of 2971)

Then again, it's possible that with all Dumbledore had going on in the Umbridge/Fudge department, he didn't stop to think about those particular aspects of things. He assumed (mistakenly, he admits) that Snape could be a mature adult where such an important issue was at stake. He assumed (again, mistakenly) that Harry would trust that what he was telling him to do was important and he needed to just do it. And perhaps he forgot about Harry's propensity to snoop in other people's Pensieves.

Solitaire

Mrs Brisbee - Jan 13, 2005 12:34 pm (#1667 of 2971)

Dumbledore did have a kind of dichotomy in his thinking about Harry: either he thought of Harry as the entity "The One," or as the young person he had grown fond of, but he wasn't able to reconcile these two images of Harry until the end of OotP and make decisions about Harry based on Harry being both of those things.

Dumbledore seems to have been trying to make many of his decisions about Harry in OotP based on Harry being "The One." Perhaps that is what led to the Occlumency fiasco, because he just didn't stop to think about the people involved.

T Brightwater - Jan 13, 2005 1:10 pm (#1668 of 2971)

Solitaire, I'm with you - I think DD had a lot on his mind (it's amazing how much he does manage to keep track of) and was trusting both Harry and Snape to act like grownups. I also think that DD's weak spot is that he really doesn't understand hate, not from inside. He's never hated anyone the way Snape hated James.

Ludicrous Patents Office - Jan 13, 2005 6:34 pm (#1669 of 2971)

Even Lupin admitted Snape was very skilled at Occlumency. DD knew he could not do it. He thought he provided Harry with the best teacher for the job. LPO

constant vigilance - Jan 18, 2005 8:39 am (#1670 of 2971)

Solitaire, excellent post you made about Harry! You said everything I had been thinking for a long time.

I think Harry's anger in OotP was largely a result of Cedric's death. After the events in the graveyard, Harry only had a short time to grieve with people who cared about him around. Then he was whisked back to Dursley Land where Harry knows they would have been glad if he had died too. He had no one to talk to about Cedric. And he still felt responsible for it. Molly had said it wasn't his fault, but I think Harry needed to hear that message more than once. He was furious that everyone else got to be together to deal with the turmoil of Voldemort's return except Harry--the person who needed that the most.

Once Harry's anger got the best of him at Privet drive there was no way to assuage it...unless he took the advice of Cho. She was absolutely correct when she told Harry he needed to mourn what had happened to Cedric. She knew how upset she was about losing her boy friend, but she realize that was not as bad as seeing him murdered. Throughout the whole book, I just wanted Harry to express that sadness and guilt, which he sort of did when Sirius died.

oh..yes.. Harry also extends a great deal of empathy toward Neville. Once he found out about Neville's parents, Harry wasn't able to look at Neville the same.

Ludicrous Patents Office - Jan 18, 2005 7:53 pm (#1671 of 2971)

Cedric's death was Harry's first cognitive experience of death. Anger is part of the grieving process. Harry had to work through it. I agree Constant Vigilance Harry needed more time with people who care about him to help him cope with Cedric's death. LPO

Solitaire - Jan 18, 2005 11:53 pm (#1672 of 2971)

Thanks, Constant Vigilance ... and may I return the compliment. I think you've nailed one of the biggest problems I've seen in the whole scheme of things: Harry is never really allowed time and the right setting and companions to properly mourn his losses or assimilate some of his bizarre and horrifying experiences in a meaningful way.

Spend some time with a friend who has been through a major trauma. At first he may clam up, but once he finds someone who seems safe--if it's you, watch out!--the floodgates will open, and he will talk and talk and talk ...

Harry has certainly experienced the "clam up" stages of things right after all of his terrifying experiences, generally because he is still in shock and doesn't really understand what has happened. However, by the time the shock wears off, he is, as you say, back in Dursley Land. He isn't likely to find anyone there to talk to and sound out about all the stuff that must be ripping through his mind and heart.

By the time the next school term starts, he is usually facing some new and deadly threat, so talking out the old stuff will just have to wait. Harry never has time to just reflect ... spot patterns ... make connections. Boy, if anyone could use a Pensieve, he could!

The upshot of how all of this seems to play out is that all of the anger, grief, fear, and confusion of the previous year must be "stuffed down" so that he can get on with things. I think that the events in the beginning of OotP just brought everything to a head, and Harry just blew! He'd had no one around as a safety valve with whom he could let off steam--and that was in addition to having to be with the Dursleys.

I would love to see Remus come and whisk Harry away to someplace relaxing for a bit of nice, quiet reflection on the things that have happened over the past few years--particularly the deaths of Sirius and Cedric. Remus knows enough to stand back and let Harry have his rant and run out of steam. He can then come alongside and help Harry look for those patterns and make those connections. I think Remus would also be someone "safe" with whom Harry could truly mourn his losses without feeling weak or powerless. I hope he avails himself of this wonderful resource.

Solitaire

PS I think Harry is suffering from repeated incidents of post traumatic stress disorder.

Eric Bailey - Jan 19, 2005 1:51 am (#1673 of 2971)

Remus would be good for that, though Luna would probably be better, being in his age group. She's managed to get him to relax and open up when the times and places weren't ideal, so imagine if she had him somewhere in a relaxing environment for genuine down time.

scoop2172000 - Jan 19, 2005 7:29 am (#1674 of 2971)

Solitaire: I'm not so sure Harry has risen to the level of PTSD. Certainly, he had nightmares for a few months after Cederic's murder, which would be normal under the circumstance, but there's no evidence he had them for a protacted amount of time coupled with daytime flashbacks and panic-attack symptoms and hyper-vigilance, which are symptoms of PTSD.

Solitaire - Jan 19, 2005 7:31 am (#1675 of 2971)

Possibly, Eric ... but I think Harry needs the company of someone who actually knew Sirius and his parents right now. I think his grief for them will be acute, and while Luna can relate to losing a parent, it is not the same. She has not lost everyone who could reasonably be called "family"; she still has her father. She did not know Sirius or the Potters at all. Of course, Harry still has the Dursleys, although I hesitate to call them family.

Other than Dumbledore--whose roles, I think, would have been more along the lines of Headmaster, "leader," mentor, and possibly a grandfather--Remus is really the last one left to Harry who can help him truly know his parents and Sirius in an honest, sincere, and loving way. Aunt Petunia and Snape aren't going to be much help there, are they?

Solitaire

librarian314 - Jan 19, 2005 7:32 am (#1676 of 2971)

Hey all!

I certainly hope that reason that the summer between Harry's 5th and 6th years is his shortest stay ever at the Dursleys is because the responsible adults around him see the need for him to be around people more supportive of him than his aunt and uncle.

I think we see a little of this in the scene at Platform 9 3/4 at the end of OotP. Remus, Mad Eye, Tonks, and assorted Weasleys show solidarity towards Harry. They let him know that they want to hear from him and that if they don't they will come and check on him. Every other year, Harry's been abandoned to his own devices and had to deal with what had happened on his own. The easiest year for him to deal with was between 3rd and 4th when he had Sirius to whom he could write.

Growing up is hard; growing up when your the center of a maelstrom is even worse. Harry has had to face more tragedies, alone, in his not even 16 years than many people face ever, in their entire lives.

I hope that Remus is the one that Harry decides to talk to, because even though Luna is his own age and has dealt with death of close loved ones, Remus has more knowledge of those Harry has lost.

As someone whose mother died when I was almost 14, I found it hard to talk about with my peers. They just didn't get it. (There were days I wanted to scream at one of my friends who regularly complained about shopping with her mom; I would have given anything to have gotten to go shopping with my mom one more time.) It was easier to talk to the friends of my parents. (My parents were 20 when they married in the late 1960s; pretty young as parents go ;-).) They generally treated me with respect and would listen to me. They could help with things with which my friends had no real world experience.

Remus knew and loved all those that Harry has lost. He can provide the little details that bring them to life, make them more than just photos. Those same details could make Harry feel more connected to his parents (all of them, including his godfather). Even twenty years after my mom's death, I love finding out something new, that we have in common; it's a tangible reminder to me that she had a lasting impact. Harry needs to find some more connections with his parents besides his looks and quidditch.

# *michelle the librarian**

Ann - Jan 19, 2005 3:07 pm (#1677 of 2971)

I agree that Harry has to talk with someone, and that Lupin would probably be very sympathetic and helpful. But I worry that he himself may be something of a basket case at this point. True, he had two dead friends and one friend who turned traitor for many years, but getting Sirius back must have been a huge thing for him, and to lose him after only two years or so would be terribly wrenching. (I was struck by Harry's inability to see that Lupin was as devastated as he was in the DoM--understandable, but Lupin clearly saw Harry's pain through his own.) I wonder if someone a little more detached--Moody, for example, might not be better.

I agree that the support group that showed up at the station was important. Was it their own idea or Dumbledore's, do you think?

Solitaire: Remus is really the last one left to Harry who can help him truly know his parents and Sirius in an honest, sincere, and loving way. Aunt Petunia and Snape aren't going to be much help there, are they?

I do wonder, if some of us are right in assuming that Petunia knew Sirius, whether we'll get any reaction to his death from her. It might be quite revealing.

Solitaire - Jan 19, 2005 6:56 pm (#1678 of 2971)

Even if Petunia did know Sirius, I don't see her as being able or even willing to offer Harry much comfort--unless she undergoes some major transformation herself between the end of OotP and the next books. I confess, I would love to learn that Dumbledore had taken the opportunity to speak with Petunia during his "hiatus" from Hogwarts.

I can't help the way I feel: I think that, as Lily's sister and Harry's only living relative, Petunia OWES HARRY the respectful courtesy of sitting down with him, allowing him to ask any question in the world about his mother, and giving him a reasonable, rational, respectufl answer. There is certainly more to Lily than just being a witch. She was, after all, a human being with feelings, thoughts, abilities, passions, interests, talents, gifts ... I hope Petunia can find a way to rise above her jealousy and resentment and talk to Harry in a meaningful, truthful, respectful way.

As for Harry not being able to see Remus's devastation at losing Sirius, I think that is due to a couple of things. First, he is at an age of self-centeredness; he is almost completely focused on his own feelings. Second, consider his background. Until he came to Hogwarts, he was all he had. He is not used to having someone to share these kinds of feelings. Yes, he has had Ron and Hermione; but Harry is still rather new to even being allowed to express his feelings. Maybe that is why he is so explosive and so inwardly focused. I think he will get better.

Solitaire

Choices - Jan 19, 2005 7:04 pm (#1679 of 2971)

Lupin had some really wonderful things to say about Lily and Petunia should be a big enough person to talk to Harry about his mother and help him to know more about her. Petunia though, seems to be just the opposite of Lily, full of hatred, spiteful and definitely not very kind. It seems a bit much to expect her to do anything to help Harry understand and accept Lily's death.

Ludicrous Patents Office - Jan 19, 2005 7:55 pm (#1680 of 2971)

Harry has learned things about his father. I hope it is time for him to learn about his mother. Who were her best friends? What was she good at? We always hear how brilliant James and Sirius were. What about Lily? Harry needs to talk to more than one person. I agree Remus is the place to start. He probably needs to talk and listen about Sirius. I also think Luna can help in her odd way. She re-awakened Harry's ability to feel for others. I hope Harry isn't left alone. LPO

dizzy lizzy - Jan 20, 2005 2:35 pm (#1681 of 2971)

The bit that frightens me is, that in his own way, Harry has been alone all along. And that everyone seems to have "forgotten" the boy at the center of the maelstrom whirling around them.

They see Harry, but has anyone ever just let him be Harry?? (many thanks to the essay on the lexicon regarding harry's gifts and the last sentence regarding his mother's gifts to him.)

Lizzy

Choices - Jan 20, 2005 5:44 pm (#1682 of 2971)

but has anyone ever just let him be Harry?? - Dizzy Lizzy

Harry's whole life has been somewhat like the Triwizard Tournament - somehow his name got put down as the one to vanquish the Dark Lord and now he has been pulled into the center of a whirlwind. He didn't ask for it and it surely must be somewhat overwhelming for a boy who spent 11 years not even knowing he was a wizard, much less the one wizard who has to save a world he only recently found out existed. Imagine what it must be like for him? Saving the wizarding world is a large order for one so young and inexperienced. I'm surprised he isn't in one of the locked wards at St. Mungo's having daily therapy sessions with the shrink-wizard.

Solitaire - Jan 20, 2005 9:15 pm (#1683 of 2971)

Excellent comparison, Choices, of his life in general to the Triwizard Tournament!

Rosie - Jan 21, 2005 2:47 am (#1684 of 2971)

Dear Ludicrous Patents Office, I have a feeling that we find out more about Lily in HBP, including who her friends were. I believe that there is a surprise ex-friend waiting for us, one that Harry will not like to know about.

Ludicrous Patents Office - Jan 21, 2005 7:27 pm (#1685 of 2971)

Rosie, I like your idea that Lily has a surprise ex-friend. I hope we do find out more about her. She is a person I have wondered about. Harry knows his father through his friends. He does not know much about his mother. LPO

Solitaire - Jan 21, 2005 7:35 pm (#1686 of 2971)

What little he does know about her magical life, he seems to know from Remus and Dumbledore.

Solitaire

Ludicrous Patents Office - Jan 21, 2005 7:48 pm (#1687 of 2971)

I hope Harry becomes more interested in her. We really know little about her personality. She doesn't like bullies. She was a good person. Was she funny? Her wand was considered good for charm work, what else was she good at? No one seems to say much about her. Was she so overshadowed by her husband and his friends that people did not know her? LPO

MickeyCee3948 - Jan 22, 2005 4:44 am (#1688 of 2971)

Who is this surprise ex-friend of Lily's that is being talked about? Did I miss something? I would love for Harry to meet some of Lily's old friends as I believe that he will need the information to understand the magic that she used to protect him. He definitely is not going to get much information out of his Aunt.

Mikie

Robert Dierken - Jan 22, 2005 12:10 pm (#1689 of 2971)

Cou;d Bertha or Florence have been friends of Lily?

Choices - Jan 22, 2005 3:06 pm (#1690 of 2971)

Rosie - On what evidence do you base your belief about an ex-friend of Lily's that Harry will not like finding out about? Just curious.

StareyedSlytherin - Jan 29, 2005 3:22 pm (#1691 of 2971)

Hi, I was just reading through some of the posts above, and sorry if this is bringing back something that has already been discussed.. A lot of you seem to think that Sirius was the last remaining character who Harry could have thought of as family, but what about Mrs Weasley? She loves him as one of her own, and he seems to think of her as a mother figure too. As a matter of fact, the Weasley family has all but adopted him as one of them. Also, if I remember correctly, Mrs. Weasley has suffered loss of family in the last war against Voldy, so she would have an understanding of what Harry is going through. True, Lupin might would be better for Harry to vent to for plot purposes; he knows things about the Potters, Marauders, etc. that Harry [and we] don't know yet. But I would think it not impossible for Harry to feel able to talk to some of the Weasleys about Sirius as well.

Solitaire - Jan 29, 2005 3:57 pm (#1692 of 2971)

I agree, Stareyed, and posted something similar a week or so ago on a different thread (last paragraph). I think Molly could have been a great source of comfort on many occasions, if Harry had ever stopped to think about it.

Ludicrous Patents Office - Jan 29, 2005 8:31 pm (#1693 of 2971)

Molly is a good source of comfort. She is over protective of Harry though and treats him like a child. I think he will need her mothering but I don't think he will confide in her. I do not see her in a mentoring role to Harry. LPO

MickeyCee3948 - Jan 29, 2005 8:53 pm (#1694 of 2971)

I agree LPO, Molly would be a very good mother figure who Harry could turn to for affection and comfort. But she would be the last person he would want to tell about the prophecy. She would really freak out.

Mikie

Solitaire - Jan 29, 2005 9:02 pm (#1695 of 2971)

I doubt Harry would confide the prophecy in Molly. I see that info going to Ron and Hermione and probably Neville. Harry might feel comfortable talking to Remus about it eventually ... maybe.

The comfort I think Harry could find in Molly would be about learning to accept and cope with the loss of Sirius and his parents. Molly has lost family to the DEs, and she would understand Harry's emotions of hurt, anger, grief, loss, etc. She has the added advantage of truly loving him and considering him as a surrogate son. Harry may be getting older but he still needs a mom from time to time. Mrs. Weasley is probably the closest he will ever get to such a person.

I believe that if Harry could ever once let go and grieve for those he has lost, he might be able to move on and leave some (probably never all) of his anger behind. Then again, maybe Harry needs to hang onto that anger for some purpose I am not seeing. I am probably putting my own feelings onto him. I just hate to see him turn into another Snape by hanging onto a lot of negative "stuff."

Solitaire

MickeyCee3948 - Jan 29, 2005 9:11 pm (#1696 of 2971)

I agree with you Solitaire and I doubt that Harry will become another Snape. He now has too many people who care and love him and will not allow him to slip into that trap.

Mikie

Wand Maker - Jan 29, 2005 9:12 pm (#1697 of 2971)

Solitaire, Yes, I agree with you. He really felt the mothering Molly can give when she hugs him while in the hospital wing at the end of GOF.

I think that Harry must and will be able to leave his pent up anger behind, or at the very least be able to really control it. I think that will indeed play a major part in being able to vanquish Voldemort. Since so much of his anger is directed towards Snape, finally dealing with it will be an epiphiany for him just when he needs it most. Gina Snape said something somewhat like this on the Snape thread.

Nicole Bloom - Jan 29, 2005 9:26 pm (#1698 of 2971)

I am preparing for a whole army of dungbombs for what I am about to type.

I don't see why people feel Harry will be getting a mentor or a parental figure. In my opinion, JKR is setting him up to be alone. She is separating him from every adult role model or parent that is or was present. As much as I want him to gain a stable adult relationship which includes unconditional love, I highly doubt that he is going to get it, until the final battle is over anyway.

And for those of you who are going to say that Dumbledore is his mentor, I say his days are numbered simply because JKR has isolated Harry from those he would view as mentors. For those who are going to say Molly is a parental figure, I say look at the posts above me. Harry respects Molly and does care for and appriciate her, but he would never confide in her like his real mother because of her mollycoddling, no pun intended.

Alright, you can throw them at me now.

MickeyCee3948 - Jan 29, 2005 9:38 pm (#1699 of 2971)

Nicole Bloom-No dungbombs coming from me. I'm too used to having to duck them myself to throw any at others. But I think you are wrong. Yes, I agree that for the first 5 books it appeared that JKR was moving in the direction you indicated. However, I believe that Dumbledore has acknowledged his mistakes at the end of OotP and knows that he must change. I also believe that Harry's friends and fellow students know that they must now stand firmly behind Harry and provide him with the support and help that he needs. This was shown in the outpouring of support he received at King's Cross station at the very end of OotP.

Mikie

vball man - Jan 29, 2005 9:56 pm (#1700 of 2971)

I agree, also. Harry will have to go it alone.

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Weeny Owl - Jan 29, 2005 11:11 pm (#1701 of 2971)

She is over protective of Harry though and treats him like a child. I think he will need her mothering but I don't think he will confide in her. I do not see her in a mentoring role to Harry.

I agree completely with that. Molly definitely has her good points, but she won't be the one who mentors him.

I don't see Harry being isolated. I agree with Mikie on that.

Eric Bailey - Jan 30, 2005 12:45 am (#1702 of 2971)

Yes, Dumbledore's days are likely numbered. That won't leave Harry alone and isolated, though. The Trio has expanded into a Sextet. The rest of DA are going to watch his back, as we saw on the train. Then, there was the show of support at the station from the OotP.

Eventually, in these stories, the student has to be able to go without the mentor. But, Harry will still have Remus and Minerva, and he has a couple of brilliant friends who, between them, have a lot of Dumbledore's aspects. If Hermione and Luna can get their heads together, there's not much they can't figure out.

So, will he need to go without a mentor? Yes. Will he not have any teachers, or anyone he can confide in? No.

vball man - Jan 30, 2005 6:21 am (#1703 of 2971)

Well, I should say that while Harry will have to "go it alone," he will have training and support and friendship leading up to that. I see him alone for the final confrontation.

I still see him calling out for help from a source of power outside himself. Like Fawkes, Lily, or a patronus.

Steve Newton - Jan 30, 2005 7:23 am (#1704 of 2971)

Eric, I think that you are right but off by one. I think that it is a septet(this means a group of seven. I hope). The 6 kids at the MOM plus Lupin. This is the entire list of people who have ridden with Harry on the Hogwarts Express on the way to school. This is the core group. Although I have real fears for Ron I think that this is the core that will carry through.

Solitaire - Jan 30, 2005 9:57 am (#1705 of 2971)

I agree that the final showdown will be Harry v. Voldemort. It must be. But there are others besides Voldemort who must be taken out of play. This is where the DA, the Order members, and any others who are aligned on the side of Harry, Dumbledore, and the "good guys" will be invaluable.

I, for one, hope Neville gets to take out the Lestranges--particularly Bella. I think it would be poetic justice, and he deserves to be the one to do it. Also, if Susan winds up as part of the core team, I'd like to see her nail the DEs who killed her relatives, if possible. I believe that having the younger generation of DAs (sort of the "junior Order") take out those of Voldemort's servants who killed or disabled their familes would bring a huge sense of closure to some characters and their families. It would also bring a sense of relief to the WW at large to know that a powerful group of young Witches and Wizards have a stake in keeping things safe and peaceful.

Solitaire

Ann - Jan 30, 2005 10:59 am (#1706 of 2971)

Solitaire, a very interesting idea--having the DA attack specific DEs responsible for the loss of family members. It occurs to me Bill and Charlie probably actually remember Molly Weasley's brothers, their uncles. They are Order members rather than DA, but they're also young, and I'd like to see them get a bit of closure, too.

Weeny Owl - Jan 30, 2005 11:05 am (#1707 of 2971)

I agree that the final showdown will be Harry v. Voldemort. It must be

Agreed.

Up to the final showdown, though, Harry won't be isolated. He'll need help up to the end, and he'll get the help.

Solitaire - Jan 30, 2005 12:22 pm (#1708 of 2971)

I'm not even sure that Harry and Voldemort will be isolated from the DA or Order. The others may be in the vicinity, observing from some point. But I believe it will, nonetheless, be Harry v. Voldemort in the final battle. Even in the Graveyard scene of GoF, with the DEs standing around them in a circle, it was still Harry v. Voldemort, until the connection was broken.

If we are understanding the prophecy correctly, there is no other way. Even if it were possible, I'm not sure I can see all of the DA ganging up on Voldemort at once. I doubt Harry's sense of pride and fair play would allow it ... even with someone as reprehensible as Voldemort. Or is this totally out of whack? Harry knows what Voldemort is capable of doing. Would he welcome assistance or spurn it? Just wondering what others think, as I'm not sure myself.

Solitaire

Ludicrous Patents Office - Jan 30, 2005 12:59 pm (#1709 of 2971)

I agree it must be Harry and Voldemort. We know Harry has a great deal of heart, courage and love. I believe for him to be able to defeat Voldemort he has to be able to understand and reciprocate those things. Meaning he can care for people but he has to recognize people care for him. He has to allow them to love him and know he is not alone. I think the end of OoP he finally started to see that. He will become very powerful if he can draw on those who care for him, alive and dead. Especially during a confrontation with Voldemort. We have seen it with Fawkes, Dumbledore and his parents coming to his aid. Voldemort has never loved anyone. He is crippled because of it. LPO

Choices - Jan 30, 2005 5:20 pm (#1710 of 2971)

Well, I sort of see it both ways. Harry is the only one who can defeat or vanquish Voldemort, so he is alone in that. But, I think he is going to have a lot of support and help from those he loves.

Ydnam96 - Jan 30, 2005 6:05 pm (#1711 of 2971)

Hmm...random thought...if we are assuming that the prophecy has actually determined the future (I'm not necessarily one of the people who believe that but just for the sake of argument) then would it be possible for a situation like this to take place?:

Harry and VM are fighting. Somehow because of mirrors or some other something that would reflect curses and the like a spell rebounds on the person who cast it (VM or Harry) and that person actually dies? Would that be a fulfillment of the prophecy? Because that would actually be dying at the hand of himself and not the other (I guess unless whatever caused the rebound was a charm or some sort of protection the other person had)

What made me think of it is actually an Alias show (and actually a Biblical passage and several movies come to mind as well) where two people are fighting and the bad guy falls on his own sword/knife and kills himself. I just wonder if "either must die at the hand of the other" would include the hand of yourself?

Eric Bailey - Jan 30, 2005 7:33 pm (#1712 of 2971)

Well, the problem with "killing" Voldemort is you have to find a way to make it stick. Harry's already killed him once, in their first encounter. You have to make sure the Dark Lord Tom can't possess something or someone, again.

Solitaire - Jan 30, 2005 7:38 pm (#1713 of 2971)

I'm not sure how dying by one's own reflected curse would be dying at the hand of "the other" ... but I have a feeling that prophecy is going to turn out to have a few twists that aren't obvious to us now--but will be glaringly plain in the end.

As for the mirrors at Hogwarts and in the Wizarding World in general, the ones we've seen certainly do not seem to be ordinary mirrors. I believe it is quite possible that one or more of these magical looking glasses may come into play on the way toward vanquishing Voldemort (I hope it is he who is vanquished).

Solitaire

Ludicrous Patents Office - Jan 30, 2005 7:43 pm (#1714 of 2971)

Eric maybe Voldemort has to be vanquished before he can die. He has to be defeated or overcome in battle. Once he is completely subdued he will not be able to possess anything. If he is stripped of his powers he will die.

I don't know if he can kill himself. If he and Harry become more closely linked maybe he will. LPO

Solitaire - Jan 30, 2005 7:49 pm (#1715 of 2971)

Thank you, LPO. I was trying to think how to express it, and I think you hit on the issue of the powers having to be stripped or vanquished.

It would seem that Voldemort's body was killed the first time ... but was it really? If we think of everyone as having some sort of immortal spirit or soul (I'm not sure exactly how Jo sees this, and it really isn't appropriate to apply my beliefs here), then how will it ever be possible to vanquish him entirely? Even if his body were killed, if the spirit or "essence" of him were immortal, wouldnt it be possible for him to simply be resurrected over and over again? Yuck, what a horrible thought!

It seems that there must be some way to vanquish the "essence" or power of Voldemort, if he is ever truly to be vanquished. But it hurts my brain to try and think of how this could be accomplished. Does this make any sense to anybody? If not, I apologize and will cease rambling. It belongs on a different thread anyway.

Solitaire

Ludicrous Patents Office - Jan 30, 2005 7:57 pm (#1716 of 2971)

Solitaire I agree, in order for Voldemort to be completely destroyed his "essence" must be destroyed. Somehow the core of his being must be vanquished. If the core of Harry's being is love and Voldemort's is hate that is why they cannot both exist. One has to overcome the other. LPO

MickeyCee3948 - Jan 30, 2005 10:02 pm (#1717 of 2971)

And "Love conquers All."

Mikie

Archangel - Jan 31, 2005 1:59 am (#1718 of 2971)

I like that theory Solitaire/LPO. It gives the phrase "breaking the spirit" a whole new meaning. Smile

Ann - Jan 31, 2005 7:31 am (#1719 of 2971)

Ydnam96 and Solitaire, I think a reflected curse would not work: Voldemort will not fall on his own sword, but at the hand of Harry. After all, the AK curse at Godric's Hollow was a reflected curse, and I think the reason it did not kill Voldemort was because the curse wasn't from Harry's hand but from Voldemort's own. He can't kill himself any more than anyone else (except Harry) can kill him. Assuming that the prophecy is effective enough to, in itself, prevent Harry and Voldemort from dying from anything other than the "hand of the other," I think Harry will have to kill Voldemort in a one-on-one duel. (The whole bit about the prophecy itself having power to bring about its own events bothers me, but seems to be the way JKR sees prophecies.)

It is interesting to wonder whether Voldemort has an immortal soul (or a soul at all). Jo's given us all sorts of images of afterlife beings: the ghosts, images in the mirror of Erised portraits, dementor-inspired memories, pensieve memories, the "shadows" from the priori incantatum effect, and those voices from behind the veil. Of these, I think only the ghosts and the veil voices probably really possess "souls"; the rest are memories or echoes. The choice between the veil and becoming a ghost seems, from what NHN says, to be based on the degree to which the wizard feared death. So I don't think Voldemort will ever become a veil voice: he'll either become a ghost or (more likely) be completely annihilated in some way. And this will probably be easier to do if his body is annihilated at the same time.

Ydnam96 - Jan 31, 2005 8:39 am (#1720 of 2971)

Yes, Ann, that does seem to be how prophecies work in her world. So it would make my idea not possible. I was just thinking out loud (sorta) Smile

Ann - Jan 31, 2005 8:43 am (#1721 of 2971)

Ydnam96, thinking out loud is what we're here for!

Potions Mistress - Jan 31, 2005 9:34 am (#1722 of 2971)

And "Love conquers All." --Mikie

I think you hit the nail on the head, Mikie. Harry has the ability and power to defeat LV because 1) he still has Lily's love coursing through his veins 2) he knows of his parents' love for him and I think manages to find some comfort and strength in that knowledge and 3) since leaving Dursleyland, he has found people who love him and people he loves. LV knows nothing of love; I think that's the main reason he is now LV. Because Harry really does have love on his side, he will be able to completely vanquish LV--body, "essence," and all. I think if and/or how Harry survives is up to debate until the end of Book 7, but I have no doubt that he, with the true power of love, will defeat LV.

~pm

Ann - Jan 31, 2005 10:04 am (#1723 of 2971)

I'm curious about this question of Harry's love from Lily. Can Voldemort really take that? DD says at the end of PS/SS that the goodness of Lily's sacrifice for Harry is so strong that its protection resides in his very blood. But Lily's sacrifice was not for Voldemort, so how can merely taking his blood give Voldemort any protection? I can see how using Harry's blood in his regeneration can help him get past Harry's protection (since he now shares the blood).

Or perhaps it does give Voldemort the same projection--depends on how mechanical these things are, I suppose. If so, maybe Dumbledore's famous glint is just about another bit of the prophecy being fulfilled: Harry and Voldemort are now invincible to everything except each other.

Ludicrous Patents Office - Jan 31, 2005 7:30 pm (#1724 of 2971)

Ann I always thought it was an example of Voldemort underestimating ancient magic. The important thing is he thinks he is safe. I am sure there is more to it. I hope we find out a lot more about Lily.

~pm I think love will be the edge that Harry has. He will probably have to endure other people sacrificing themselves for him before it is over. LPO

Solitaire - Jan 31, 2005 10:28 pm (#1725 of 2971)

Ann, I agree about the reflected curse. I do not see how it would be possible.

Lily's sacrifice was not for Voldemort, so how can merely taking his blood give Voldemort any protection

I have always felt like this--that there is more to Lily's "blood" protection than the mere chemical properties of her blood. I think it was the sacrificial intent--the willingness to shed her blood--that truly gives Harry his protection.

Solitaire

Rosie - Feb 1, 2005 2:49 am (#1726 of 2971)

Check out your bibles - some where in there is the statement "There is no greater love than that of him that gives up his life for a friend". I feel also that the blood protection that Voldemort has attempted to steal will somehow rebound on him in the end.

Maybe Voldemort will attempt to process Harry when his body is destroyed and the combination of Lily's blood protection in his veins as well as Harry's will destroy him utterly (as love extinguishes hate, like light extinguishes dark).

Wand Maker - Feb 1, 2005 5:49 pm (#1727 of 2971)

I think that it is more that Voldemort used Harry's blood such that Lilly's dying protection would recognize it. Voldemort took it so he could once again touch Harry without massive pain (for himself, not Harry).

The end will be Harry vs. Voldemort. I don't think that the DA or Order members will try their hand at Voldemort. He will probably out of the way until it is time for he and Harry to duel.

Now, Harry must master occulmency. I am thinking that this will be the only way that he will be able to block out the unbearable pain that Harry experiences in his scar when Voldemort is in the same room.

StareyedSlytherin - Feb 2, 2005 1:54 pm (#1728 of 2971)

I've been wondering something about that. Since Harry hasn't mastered occulmency yet, and Dumbledore has revealed the entire prophesy to him, could it be possible for Voldemort to find out what it says through their connection? I also wonder if this could possibly cause danger for the Order, Harry, and whoever else gets involved... As I remember, in OOTP they were closely guarding that prophesy against Vol. getting to it + learning everything it said.

Denise P. - Feb 2, 2005 2:41 pm (#1729 of 2971)

What makes you think Dumbledore revealed the entire prophesy to Harry?

MickeyCee3948 - Feb 2, 2005 2:47 pm (#1730 of 2971)

Exactly Denise, he told Harry what he might even hope that Voldemort finds out about. Kinda rough on Harry though.

Mikie

Paulus Maximus - Feb 2, 2005 3:27 pm (#1731 of 2971)

It would be quite a blow to Voldemort, though, to learn that the prophecy is worthless.

Maybe DD did mean for Voldemort to learn the prophecy.

Really, the only thing that Voldemort can learn by knowing the prophecy is that he has marked Harry as his equal and that one of them has to kill the other (both of which he could have figured out by himself).

Prefect Marcus - Feb 2, 2005 4:26 pm (#1732 of 2971)

Denise P. - What makes you think Dumbledore revealed the entire prophesy to Harry?

How soon we forget.

Remember what the teaser was for OoP? A quote from Dumbledore saying to Harry that it was time for him to hear everything.

Besides, Dumbledore didn't tell Harry the Prophecy, the Pensieve-Trelawney did. I think it unlikely to assume that Dumbledore can chose to remember one part of a prophesy, but not another. That would be equivalent to telling someone not to think of a Fox.

Ludicrous Patents Office - Feb 2, 2005 5:13 pm (#1733 of 2971)

I think Dumbledore revealed all of the prophecy as Prefect Marcus pointed out. Dumbledore may be the only one who understands it though. I am sure there are many things we do not know about. I agree that Harry needs to learn Occlumency to keep Voldemort out of his mind. There is a lot Harry can reveal. LPO

Solitaire - Feb 2, 2005 6:02 pm (#1734 of 2971)

Well, Harry certainly knows at this point how crucial it is that he lock his mind to Voldemort. Perhaps finally giving him the information about the prophecy may have been the key to impressing him with the importance of mastering Occlumency. Before, he really didn't understand why it was so vital; he just saw it as another excuse for Snape to torment him. Now he has seen firsthand the destruction Voldemort is able to do just be inserting information into his mind.

I wonder ... Dumbledore seems to believe that Voldemort can spy on him via Harry, which suggests that Voldemort is indeed a Legilimens. Hopefully Harry will remember that there are legit reasons for him to practice.

Solitaire

vball man - Feb 2, 2005 8:24 pm (#1735 of 2971)

I think it unlikely to assume that Dumbledore can chose to remember one part of a prophesy, but not another. - P Marcus.

I think you're right that Dumbledore "recalled" the prophecy straight through. But it would be easy to cut parts out. Just as it was easy to cut out the other things that Trelawney said that night. Does that make sense? I mean obviously Dumbledore didn't simply recall the whole evening. He left out things that came before and after the prophecy. Why not something in the middle?

Solitaire - Feb 2, 2005 9:05 pm (#1736 of 2971)

Perhaps Dumbledore omitted something on purpose. He may have told Harry "everything" in the sense of why Voldemort tried to kill him, how he survived, the reason he was placed with the Dursleys, why Voldemort was trying to infiltrate his mind ... but isn't it possible that he may have "bleeped" something in the prophecy that he did not think Harry should know just now? I wonder ...

Solitaire

Steve Newton - Feb 3, 2005 3:33 am (#1737 of 2971)

Solitaire, I'm not sure that it is any longer important for Harry to lock his mind from Lord V. At the end of OOTP Dumbledore seemed to have no problem talking, or looking, at Harry. Lord V had been in Harry and could not tolerate it. I suspect that he won't be back.

vball man - Feb 3, 2005 5:03 am (#1738 of 2971)

Hmmm....That was weird. I thought it was. We didn't really get to know just why Dumbledore could look at him and talk to him for so long. Was this permanent or temporary?

My suspicion is that Voldemort can come anytime he likes, but that Harry will always be able to repell him by thinking of those he loves. And that repelling seems to have made Voldemort stay away, at least for a period of time.

Ann - Feb 3, 2005 6:59 am (#1739 of 2971)

I think Dumbledore told Harry EVERYTHING, just as he said he would. I can't see him giving Harry a partial prophecy, when knowledge of a partial prophecy has done so much to hurt Voldemort. (On another level, I don't think Jo would do that to us; she knew, surely, that there'd be lots of discussion, and it wouldn't be fair.)

But I agree with vball man that it is quite weird that Dumbledore changes his demeanor towards Harry so radically in that final conversation without ever really explaining why. You'd think he would have at least said something to Harry about what he ought to do now about the occlumency--either that learning it is no longer necessary, or that he should keep practicing, or that if he feels Voldemort's presence he should think of Sirius. And it's almost equally odd that Harry doesn't ask.

Solitaire - Feb 3, 2005 7:17 am (#1740 of 2971)

Perhaps Dumbledore felt like giving Harry one more instruction or admonition at that particular moment was superfluous. He was already overwhelmed, and this was simply not the time. Or perhaps Dumbledore himself needed to ponder what had happened with Voldemort before he set Harry on a different course of action. Is it possible that Voldemort can obtrude information into a mind but cannot actually retrieve it, the way they initially thought?

Snape has gone on and on about how fools who wear their hearts on their sleeves are easy pickin's for Voldemort. Yet it was that characteristic that saved Harry. Perhaps Harry is so much "heart and emotion" that Voldemort is unable to probe his mind in the way that he is with others. He keeps being driven out by the feelings and love. Harry seems to filter everything through his heart--and Voldemort is cold and calculating. Does he even have a heart anymore--a physical or emotional heart? Hm ... how would you like to do an autopsy on the "rebirthed" Voldemort? Scary! I wonder what would be found--and found missing--inside?

Is it also possible that Voldemort fears Harry may be able to read his thoughts and probe his mind? If Voldemort is a Legilimens, is he also an Occlumens?

Solitaire

Paulus Maximus - Feb 3, 2005 11:15 am (#1741 of 2971)

Voldemort might be an occlumens. He was capable of lying to Harry and making it look like the truth... just as Snape can lie to Voldemort and make it look like the truth...

Solitaire - Feb 3, 2005 8:48 pm (#1742 of 2971)

I think he probably is if he wants to be. As I stated in another post just now, I have come to think that anyone who truly desires to do so can probably learn some form of Occlumency (although perhaps not as complex as Harry had to learn) ... even me! I have read that part of the process of simple meditation entails learning to clear one's mind of extraneous concerns. If my understanding is correct, it sounds like something that can be done by most people--if they truly have the desire to do so.

Solitaire

septentrion - Feb 21, 2005 1:11 am (#1743 of 2971)

Hmmm, this thread has been quiet lately.

Well, I don't know if this has been told already but I lately thought that Harry and Neville are more linked than we may think :
-they both lost whom they considered their closest family alive because of Bellatrix Lestrange (she tortured Neville's parents and killed Sirius)
-their birthday are near at the same date
-they both fitted with the prophecy
-in the DoM battle, they were the only ones of the students who have seen death (Sirius' death) and therefore will still be the only ones of the group who'll be able to see thestrals.
That last point is the particularly one I don't remember having read it on the forum. I wonder why Jo made only these two ones see death. I can't help but think it could be of some importance in the last two books.

Eric Bailey - Feb 21, 2005 5:16 am (#1744 of 2971)

Actually, they could both see thestrals before the DoM battle, and they weren't the only ones of the Sextet who could. Harry could at the beginning of his fifth year because of Cedric. Neville could because of his grandfather. Luna has always seen the Hogwarts thestrals, because of her mom. The fourth student we know can see the thestrals is Theodore Nott.

Steve Newton - Feb 21, 2005 6:22 am (#1745 of 2971)

septentrion, I think that Harry and Neville have been paired (some would say twinned) from very early on. At one time I was keeping a list of connections and parallels. Alas, no idea where it might be. Round Pink Spider has suggested that they might be actual twins. At first I thought that this was impossible. I don't anymore.

Choices - Feb 21, 2005 8:56 am (#1746 of 2971)

Hmmmmm......wouldn't Lily or Alice remember if they had twins? Well, maybe Alice wouldn't now, but at one time before the torture she surely would have noticed she had two babies. How did the twins get split up and grow up in different homes with different families? Is there any evidence in the books to make the reader think Neville and Harry are twins, besides just the close birthdays? On what evidence is this theory based? Just curious!

septentrion - Feb 21, 2005 9:28 am (#1747 of 2971)

Well, I forgot Luna in that battle but the fact is the students who could see the thestrals before the battle will be the same after the battle. Jo didn't make Ron, Hermione or Ginny see death. I was just wondering if it could be of some importance later.

Steve Newton - Feb 21, 2005 9:53 am (#1748 of 2971)

Choices, at one time I had collected a bunch of hints. Can't find them. Sorry. I know that I came across one early in GOF (I'm listening to it again). When I listen and don't read I don't find it easy to go back and document. Maybe I'll actually have to reread. But, yes, the mothers would have noticed twins. The gist is that they would have been separated so that at least one will live.

Choices - Feb 21, 2005 10:13 am (#1749 of 2971)

OK, since Harry looks so much like James and has Lily's eyes, then obviously Lily had to have had the twins and one was given to the Longbottoms to raise? Seems a bit far-fetched to me, but I suppose it is possible.....anything is possible. Right??

Steve Newton - Feb 21, 2005 10:19 am (#1750 of 2971)

Choices, that was my initial response. I'll scout around for some clues. Not that I am saying that this is the case. But there is some suggestive evidence.

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Mona Sat Sep 10, 2011 9:40 am

Solitaire - Feb 21, 2005 1:55 pm (#1751 of 2971)

Choices, I think at least one of the explanations offered was that the real Neville had died, and the other Potter twin was transfigured to look like Neville--or something like that--and the Longbottoms agreed to take him and keep him safe. (This reminded me of the whole "changeling" idea from mythology.) Some have felt this was the reason Neville was dropped on his head, into the water, etc., to see if he had any magical powers ... because with Lily as his mother, there were Muggles in his background.

I'm not saying I believe it--just that this is one of the explanations I've seen (or close to it).

Solitaire

Potions Mistress - Feb 21, 2005 2:53 pm (#1752 of 2971)

Hmmm...while I have no doubt that Harry and Neville are connected, I doubt that they're twins--or even very closely related. JKR seems to love her plot twists, but this one sounds too farfetched even for that, IMO.

~pm

vball man - Feb 21, 2005 3:17 pm (#1753 of 2971)

Well, I love theories! But I doubt the Nev-Harry twin one.
In OoP, when Moody is showing Harry the photo of the original order of the phoenix:
Harrys stomach, already uncomfortable, clenched as he looked at Alice Longbottom; he knew her round, friendly face very well, even though he had never met her, because she was the image of her son, Neville

GryffEndora - Feb 21, 2005 3:19 pm (#1754 of 2971)

I think Neville and Harry would be much closer friends if they were twins separated at birth. They share most of their classes, they sleep in the same room, there is no reason Neville couldn't be as close to Harry as Ron & Hermione. They are friendly, yes, and connected, definitely, but I think this kind of "Star Wars" twins separated at birth and raised separately for their own protection is way off in this case. Besides I can't see JKR sharing this kind of plot twist when she often tells people "... you've seen Star Wars too much!" or something of the like. I can't believe this any more that I could believe Voldemort saying "Harry, I am Your Father". I would feel cheated and I just think JKR is more creative and original than to do that.

Just my 2 Knuts...

frogface - Feb 21, 2005 3:39 pm (#1755 of 2971)

Yes, Neville is deffinatly important, maybe even as important as Harry, but his twin? I don't think so. Although I have read that thread and its an ingenious and fun theory! xxxkieranxxx

T Brightwater - Feb 21, 2005 4:37 pm (#1756 of 2971)

Since Harry is the image of James with Lily's eyes, and Neville is the image of Alice Longbottom, I don't think they can be twins. Also they were born a day apart, weren't they?

Steve Newton - Feb 21, 2005 5:36 pm (#1757 of 2971)

As I recall it they were born hours apart. Can't think of a cite.

Solitaire - Feb 21, 2005 6:15 pm (#1758 of 2971)

I've been thinking about this issue, and I seem to remember Round Pink Spider saying something about this on a special thread--something like "Long Theory about the Longbottoms." The trouble is, I can't find the thread! But I am sure RPS will read this post and either confirm this information or correct my errors. Either way, maybe you will be able to read the whole theory and judge for yourself. Oh, RPS, where are you?

Solitaire

Eponine - Feb 21, 2005 6:35 pm (#1759 of 2971)

According to the Lexicon, Neville's birthday is July 30. We know that Harry's is July 31, but there's no evidence as to when in their respective days they were born.

I Am Used Vlad - Feb 21, 2005 6:37 pm (#1760 of 2971)

Solitaire, you probably mean the "Long Theory About Harry's Family" thread. It's still there.

Solitaire - Feb 21, 2005 6:49 pm (#1761 of 2971)

Thanks, Vlad. For some reason, I thought there was a second theory, about the Longbottoms. Okay, here are the links on that thread that talk about it. The first link and the second one ... I believe.

I suppose it is possible that there are more twin references in the thread ... but those seemed key. I hope this helps. Thanks again, Vlad.

Solitaire

Choices - Feb 22, 2005 8:39 am (#1762 of 2971)

Very, very interesting and well documented. Thanks Solitaire and RPS. That will definitely give me something to think about.

GryffEndora - Feb 22, 2005 12:41 pm (#1763 of 2971)

Solitare and RPS, thank you for the links and the analysis. I'm still not sure I want to believe this one but I am re-thinking my position. Thank you for "reminding me" to keep an open mind.

Steve Newton - Feb 22, 2005 5:01 pm (#1764 of 2971)

As Ron suggested in GOF maybe either Harry or Voldemort is an "extra concentrated ghost."

Potions Mistress - Feb 23, 2005 5:48 am (#1765 of 2971)

Steve, (or anyone else) do you have a citation for that--I don't remember the line or its context.

~pm

Steve Newton - Feb 23, 2005 6:07 am (#1766 of 2971)

My books are at home. I try to remember to check if no one else comes up with it.

Solitaire - Feb 23, 2005 7:10 am (#1767 of 2971)

The "extra concentrated ghost" remark comes in Chapter 22 of GoF (p. 372, US paperback), at the end of one of Trelawney's classes, when she's just predicted--what else?--Harry's death ... again.

Yes, said Professor Trelawney, nodding impressively, "it comes, ever closer, it circles overhead like a vulture, ever lower ... ever lower over the castle ..."
She stared pointedly at Harry, who yawned very widely and obviously.
It'd be a bit more impressive if she hadn't done it about eighty times before, Harry said as they finally regained the fresh air of the staircase beneath Professor Trelawney's room. "But if I'd dropped dead every time she's told me I'm going to, I'd be a medical miracle."
You'd be a sort of extra-concentrated ghost, said Ron, chortling, as they passed the Bloody Baron going in the opposite direction, his wide eyes staring sinisterly. "At least we didn't get homework. I hope Hermione got loads off Professor Vector, I love not working when she is. . . ."

I hope that helps.

Solitaire

Steve Newton - Feb 23, 2005 7:13 am (#1768 of 2971)

Solitaire, I hadn't recalled that the idea of the extra-concentrated ghost was so closely paired with the Bloody Baron. Mean anything to anyone?

Hollywand - Feb 23, 2005 9:00 am (#1769 of 2971)

Sibyll is seeing the dementors circling toward Harry and Sirius. She is seeing Harry's death approaching, but Harry manages to stave them off with the assistance of Hermione, the Time Turner, Dumbledore and his hart patronus.

Rowling has put some of her best clues in Sibyll's meanderings. Perhaps it is the dementors who are extra-concentrated ghost.

Romulus - Feb 23, 2005 9:17 am (#1770 of 2971)

Hollywand, the quote Solitaire has inserted is from GOF, not POA. Possibly if could be a reference to Cedric's death though.

Potions Mistress - Feb 23, 2005 3:31 pm (#1771 of 2971)

Thanks Solitaire! When I read that, I thought about how LV keeps trying to kill Harry, and yet doesn't ever succeed. Maybe that's what JKR is referring to? Or possibly LV himself, who can't die, and yet I don't really think is "alive." Or it could just be humor and nothing more.

~pm

Hollywand - Feb 23, 2005 3:36 pm (#1772 of 2971)

Romulus, thank you very much for pointing out the text. I am a Sibyll apologist. I was fooled by Harry and Ron when she saw the Grim. Had I listened to her and not the trio, I would have had myself a very densely packed clue about Sirius Black.

I will bet my flying Ford Anglia that Sibyll is seeing the Voldemort's army returning, the dementors as part of his wake, to do battle with Harry and the Order of the Phoenix.

The death she sees impending may be her own and not Harry's.

Solitaire - Feb 23, 2005 8:10 pm (#1773 of 2971)

I do agree, Holly, that Sibyll is toast at some point. I fear Voldemort will get hold of her and torture her beyond what happened to Bertha and the Longbottoms. Frankly, I believe that is why Dumbledore keeps her at Hogwarts--for her own protection. But I fear she may be lured away to her own destruction--probably because she is blinded by her belief in her own ability to see. That is, she does see, but she does not seem aware of the prophecies that are genuine ... and she places too much faith in the false ones. Does that make sense?

Steve, I am not sure about the Baron.

Solitaire

Steve Newton - Feb 24, 2005 5:57 am (#1774 of 2971)

I am not sure about the Baron.

I don't think that anybody is.

Gerald Costales - Feb 25, 2005 10:00 am (#1775 of 2971)

Re: post #1773)

. . .but she does not seem aware of the prophecies that are genuine ... and she places too much faith in the false ones. Does that make sense? Solitaire

Sibyll is definitely unaware of the TWO Real Prophecies that she'd made thus far in the Series. (And whether she has made any other genuine and real Prophecies, we hitherto are currently unaware as readers of the Series.) Sibyll was in a trance and has no recollection of either the "Prophecy" given to Dumbledore at the Hog's Head or the other Real Prophecy given to Harry about Wormtail's return to Voldermort.

The “Inner Eye” cannot, at else by Sibyll, be turned on or turned off at will. Dumbledore was indeed fortunate that when he wanted an example of Divination that Sibyll provided the “Prophecy”. Then again if “Predestination” exists, at else in the Series, both Dumbledore and Harry were preordained to receive their respective “Prophecies” because both were destined to receive them. Again, the existence of the “Prophecy” implies “Predestination” exists, at else in the Series.

The whole nature of Predestination, Prophecy, Fate, etc. is so abstract that one cannot tell the true beginning of events. Did the current mix of events first come into motion because of Fawkes? His tail feathers are the cores of both Voldermort’s “Yew Wand” and Harry’s “Holly Wand”. It can’t be all just Fawkes. So, neither can it be all just the “Prophecy” and Sibyll. Sibyll has been an unsuspecting messenger for both Real Prophecies. Some of Trelawney’s prophetic musings seem real though. But, I wouldn’t necessarily label them as false. Then again if you make as many prophetic-like comments as Sibyll, you may inadvertently turn out to be right sometimes. So, these false prophecies are just chance hits and not Real Prophecies.

But, Harry is not our hero by Chance. Harry is our hero by Fate. Harry is not a Victim of Fate. But, Fate‘s lieutenant. (“I am the Fates' lieutenant; I act under orders.” Moby Dick) And as I’ve have repeatedly posted, NO BROTHER WANDS at the Graveyard then Voldermort most likely kills Harry. End of Series. But, Harry was Fated to Survive. ;-) GC

PS Isn’t all about Harry. ;-) GC

PPS Chance is a Fool’s word for Fate. ;-) GC

edited for grammar and clarity. ;-) GC

Ludicrous Patents Office - Feb 25, 2005 6:28 pm (#1776 of 2971)

Can Harry change fate? Or by trying to change the prophecy will he fulfill it and turn the series into a Greek Tragedy? I think it is about choice. Harry would not let Sirius and Remus destroy Peter. He may find a different path than murdering Voldemort. Dumbledore says there are worse things than dying. Somethings are "predestined", your gender, when you are born, who you are born to. But in between birth and death there is a lot of choice. LPO

Solitaire - Feb 26, 2005 12:09 am (#1777 of 2971)

I'm not sure if this is the place to discuss the prophecy or not; I think it has a thread. But it seems to me that one of the main themes throughout the book is the issue of CHOICE. The prophecy says that "the One with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches ..." It does not say "The One who will vanquish the Dark Lord approaches ..." This sounds like Harry certainly does have a choice in the matter.

Choices is one of the themes of the series. I do not see predestination here. I do see character and choice.

Solitaire

Gerald Costales - Feb 26, 2005 2:35 pm (#1778 of 2971)

First of all, I do not believe in “Predestination”. I believe in Choices/Free Will. But in the Series, we are dealing in the Wizarding World and in the Potterverse. Many things are identical to our World. But not everything is identical to our World. The Real World our World may have Seers. In the Wizarding World Seers REALLY exist. (Despite Seers like Sybill T.)

(Re: post #1776)

“Can Harry change fate? * . . . Somethings are "predestined", your gender, when you are born, who you are born to. But in between birth and death there is a lot of choice." ** LPO

No *, if Fate is Fate and immutable. Harry can’t change Fate. But, neither can Voldermort change Fate. They are both bond by the “Prophecy”.

Yes **, somethings are “predestined”. The question is, in the Series, what is “predestined”? Yes, there are a lot of choices between birth and death. But, there are crossroads in our life, those moments of decision and destiny. The one thing I believe is “predestined” in this Series is a “Final Confrontation” between Harry and Voldermort. No matter what paths or roads either Harry or Voldermort chose, they will cross paths and they will meet at some crossroad for that “Final Confrontation.”

(Re: post #1777)

“I'm not sure if this is the place to discuss the prophecy* . . .”

“Choices is one of the themes of the series. I do not see predestination here. I do see character and choice.”** Solitaire

Well *, now that Harry has the “Prophecy”, what will he do? The “Prophecy” is important! That’s why Voldermort was willing to steal it from the DoM. And if it wasn’t really important, why did the Order need to guard it day and night? Will Harry change how he acts and reacts because of the “Prophecy”? (Yes, some discussion of the “Prophecy” is proper because Harry now has the “Prophecy”.)

Yes **, “Choices” is one of the themes of the Series. But, how do you handle the “Prophecy”? Dumbledore, I believe has and will make decisions based on the “Prophecy”. Voldermort wants the “Prophecy” in order to kill Harry. Is the “Prophecy” just the ramblings of that fraud Sibyll? Dumbledore didn’t and doesn’t think so. And Harry thinks that the Prophecy he heard about Wormtail was real!

The Series isn’t simply Harry Potter and the Prophecy. And, despite our convictions, beliefs, and arguments against “Predestination”. The “Prophecy” exists and some “Predestination” exists in the Series. ;-) GC

Solitaire - Feb 26, 2005 11:26 pm (#1779 of 2971)

I have responded to your post over on the Prophecy II thread, which I felt was a better place for it.

Joanne R. Reid - Mar 3, 2005 12:25 pm (#1780 of 2971)

Hi,

I was just rereading OotP for the many-ith time. Something struck me as odd. I wasn't sure where to post it. So I'm putting it here in the hopes that I will be redirected to the appropriate forum,

In Chapter One, Harry is begin attacked by the Dementors. He fails to produce his Patronus twice. A Dementor closes upon him.

'... -the high-pitched laughter was growing louder and louder, and a voice spoke inside his head - "Bow to death, Harry.... It might even be painless.... I would not know.... I have never died...."'

Is the voice of Voldemort? If it is Voldemort's voice there are many possible explanations:

1. Voldemort is mentally linked with Harry, he knows of this linkage and is actively gloating at Harry's impending demise

2. Voldemort is linked to the Dementors and is actively gloating at Harry's impending demise.

3. Harry is so frightened by the Dementors that he is fantasizing Voldemort's voice and words.

I'm not sure what to make of this scene. Anybody got an idea?

Thanks

Steve Newton - Mar 3, 2005 12:30 pm (#1781 of 2971)

I'll have to check but isn't that what Voldemort said to Harry in the gravweyard?

wwtMask - Mar 3, 2005 1:04 pm (#1782 of 2971)

It is indeed what Voldemort said to Harry in the graveyard.

Joanne, Dementors had a similar effect on Harry by making him remember the voices of his parents and Voldemorts voice from the night they died (POA). I always took this scene in OotP to reflect that Harry's new worst memory is his near death in the graveyard.

Choices - Mar 3, 2005 5:43 pm (#1783 of 2971)

Yes, Harry is remembering what Voldemort said to him in the graveyard and that is what spurs his determination to survive - to get the dementors before they get him.

Phoenix song - Mar 3, 2005 5:45 pm (#1784 of 2971)

I think that I remember Dumbledore saying that he believed that Voldemort was unaware of the connection between himself and Harry until after the attack on Mr. Weasley.

Barbie

Solitaire - Mar 3, 2005 8:24 pm (#1785 of 2971)

Snape tells Harry this information in Chapter 24, during the first Occlumency lesson. "It appears that the Dark Lord has been unaware of the connection between you and himself until very recently. Up till now it seems that you have been experiencing his emotions, and sharing his thoughts, without his being any the wiser. However, the vision you had shortly before Christmas--"
The one with the snake and Mr Weasley?
Do not interrupt me, Potter, said Snape in a dangerous voice. "As I was saying, the vision you had shortly before Christmas represented such a powerful incursion upon the Dark Lord's thoughts--"
I saw inside the snake's head, not his!
I thought I just told you not to interrupt me, Potter?
But Harry did not care if Snape was angry; at last he seemed to be getting to the bottom of this business. He had moved forward in his chair so that, without realising it, he was perched on the very edge, tense as though poised for flight.
How come I saw through the snakes eyes if it's Voldemort's thoughts I'm sharing?
... ... "You seem to have visited the snake's mind because that was where the Dark Lord was at that particular moment," snarled Snape. "He was possessing the snake at the time and so you dreamed you were inside it, too."
And Vol--he--realised I was there?
It seems so, said Snape coolly.

So you are correct, Phoenix. Ugh! Voldemort's mind ... what a horrible place to be.

Solitaire

Joanne R. Reid - Mar 4, 2005 10:23 am (#1786 of 2971)

Hi,

Thanks to both Steve Newton and wwtMask! Indeed you are correct.

Obviously, it's been a while since I've read GoF. I had forgotten Voldemort's exact words. Now that you have reminded me, I see their relevence.

I shall continue rereading OotP, savoring each word and sentence. I shall feast upon chapters, yet come away unsated. :-(

Accio, Half-Blood Prince!

Thanks,

Ponine - Mar 9, 2005 5:47 pm (#1787 of 2971)

I am so sorry if you already have discussed this, but I have yet to find any good explanation as to why Harry has a scar at all? The other people we know who have been AK'ed were left with no marks at all? Should he have that scar? Obviously it serves a function in the books, but I would like to know why and how, if anyone can give me a good suggestion, or show me somewhere to look for it, I would be very grateful! p.

Choices - Mar 9, 2005 6:23 pm (#1788 of 2971)

Ponine - Other people who have been AK'd aren't around to show off their scars. Harry is "the boy who lived" - the only known wizard to be AK'd and live to tell about it. The scar is a result of being touched by an evil curse (according to Hagrid) and Dumbledore says he will have it forever. Most of this can be found in the early part of book one.

Ponine - Mar 9, 2005 6:44 pm (#1789 of 2971)

Choices - I am aware of what you are referring to, but as far as we know, Cedric had no marks from the AK, and we know for a fact that the Riddle's were seemingly untouched, albeit dead. I just wonder if the scar may not have as much to do with the AK as something else that occurred that night? Did DD ever specify how Harry's scar came about?

Choices - Mar 9, 2005 6:55 pm (#1790 of 2971)

Oh, Ponine, you are right - I think my mind has already gone to bed tonight. LOL I had forgotten about Cedric and the Riddles. We surely did see their bodies and there were no marks/scars that we know of. Yes, Harry's scar must have been the result of the charms/spells that were placed on Harry to protect him and how the AK reacted/interacted with them. The prophesy says "the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal", but I don't think Voldemort intentionally did that since he did not know about that part of the prophesy. I don't think "mark him as his equal" meant an actual mark or scar as one might believe on first reading that. I think the way he "marked" Harry was not something visible.

Ponine - Mar 9, 2005 7:00 pm (#1791 of 2971)

Choices; I agree with you about the Dark Lord marking him as his equal, and how that does not necessarily point to the scar, or mark at all. I must admit that I am still not happy with what little we have been told, but - what can a girl do, but sit and wait.... and wait... and wait... Smile

Choices - Mar 9, 2005 7:03 pm (#1792 of 2971)

........what can a girl do, but sit and wait.... and wait... and wait... Smile

....And come to the forum and post and debate and theorize in a desperate effort to past the time until July 16th. LOL :-)

Mrs Brisbee - Mar 9, 2005 7:07 pm (#1793 of 2971)

I just wonder if the scar may not have as much to do with the AK as something else that occurred that night? Did DD ever specify how Harry's scar came about?

I'd been wondering the same thing about the scar, so a while ago I went through all the books to see if it said specifically anywhere that the AK caused the scar. Most mentions of the scar are vague on the point, except one:

Harry had escaped from the same attack with nothing more than a scar on his forehead, where Voldemort's curse, instead of killing him, had rebounded upon its originator. Barely alive, Voldemort had fled. (PoA, Ch1 "Owl Post")

It's the narrator speaking here, not a character offering opinion, so it does seem that the AK rebounding did cause the scar.

Tomoé - Mar 9, 2005 7:27 pm (#1794 of 2971)

Let's try something, maybe it's like a empty glass, as long as the glass is whole, there's no danger to get cut, but if you broke the glass, you have to watch your step. Likewise, as long as th AK is rightly performed, there no physical harm, mess the spell and loose magic can harm the body.

I hope it makes sense.

I Am Used Vlad - Mar 9, 2005 7:38 pm (#1795 of 2971)

I gave him a scar and in a prominent place so other people would recognize him. It is almost like being the chosen one, or the cursed one, in a sense. Someone tried to kill him; that's how he got it. JKR, from a 2001 interview in the Houston Chronicle.

This quote backs Mrs Brisbee's position. Voldemort's attack caused the scar.

S.E. Jones - Mar 9, 2005 9:19 pm (#1796 of 2971)

I've always wondered, considering it was his mother's sacrifice that saved him that night, whether his mother had kissed him on his forehead on that very spot where the mark later appeared.....

lilysmom - Mar 10, 2005 9:40 am (#1797 of 2971)

Oooooh! Very interesting thought!

Choices - Mar 10, 2005 10:10 am (#1798 of 2971)

Oh, S. E. Jones.....as a Mom I like that idea. A kiss might have first marked the spot.

librarian314 - Mar 14, 2005 6:45 am (#1799 of 2971)

Hey all!

S.E. Jones - I really like your idea about Lily kissing Harry's forehead. In the greater world of magic, spells are often set-up with just one word or action to spring them. A kiss on the forehead is such an innocent, tender thing, that Voldemort wouldn't ever realize it as being able to trigger protections strong enough to let a baby survive an AK.

Perhaps the pain Harry often feels is his mother's love fighting the evil of Voldemort.

# *michelle the librarian**

librarian314 - Mar 15, 2005 5:49 am (#1800 of 2971)

Hey all!

Hadn't really meant to post back to back! :-P

There's a discussion over on the Lily and James thread that got me to thinking about what Harry knows about the night his parents were killed.

Does he know as much as we know? He knows his parents were killed but what else? Does he know about the explosion? Has anyone bothered to tell him that Hagrid brought him from Godric's Hollow to the Dursleys' and that leaving him with his Muggle relations was DD's idea? Does he even know that he's from Godric's Hollow?

# *michelle the librarian**

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Solitaire - Mar 15, 2005 7:14 am (#1801 of 2971)

I don't know if he's heard yet where his parents lived, but he did hear quite a bit of background that day in the Three Broomsticks, when he was hiding under the table and listening to McGonagall, Flitwick, Fudge, and Hagrid. He got a bit more later in the book (PoA)--in the Shrieking Shack--when Sirius told him what he found when he got to the house.

I'm sure he's getting to the point where he is going to have to investigate just exactly what happened that night--especially the role Peter played. Peter and that silver hand--as well as his being indebtted to Harry--are going to figure into future events, I suspect.

More may also come out if/when the subject of his parents' wands--and where they might be--comes up. After all, Voldemort still has his wand, so wands must be pretty sturdy. This makes me wonder just how much stress was inflicted on Ron's and Neville's wands.

Harry has a lot of nosing around to do. Maybe he needs to look into his own Pensieve! Maybe he can get hold of Peter and take some thoughts out of his head and check out the events of that night ... who knows?

Solitaire

Ludicrous Patents Office - Mar 15, 2005 7:23 pm (#1802 of 2971)

S.E. I love the idea about Lily kissing Harry on the head. I always thought the scar was formed there because that is where the curse first hit. I hope we do find out more about Harry's and Lily's past. I wonder if Harry will let Aunt Pet know he knows about the charm Dumbledore placed on him. LPO

Solitaire - Mar 21, 2005 7:00 pm (#1803 of 2971)

It would be interesting to know just exactly how much Pet does know about Harry, Dumbledore's charms and protections, and James and Lily's life together. I really hope that--if Harry does try to talk to her about everything--he will not simply give up if she tries to dodge things and cut off the conversation.

When I read how some fans blame Harry for not asking more questions about James and Lily, I can't help believing the Dursleys are largely responsible for Harry's failure to question and pursue a lot of the things he would like to know. He has been trained not to ask any question that might make someone uncomfortable, and old, deeply-ingrained habits are hard to change.

I would like to see Harry become a bit more tenacious about some of these things, however. If he does not push and demand information about his parents--even if it hurts those who must answer--he is not likely to make much headway, if you ask me. I believe he will get as much as he can from Remus, but I wonder if he will have to get "ugly" (meaning pushy and forceful) to get anything of value from Petunia ...

Solitaire

haymoni - Mar 21, 2005 7:22 pm (#1804 of 2971)

It seems as though emotion is what triggers Pet to spill the beans.

Her anger spilled over at the Hut on the Rock and she was erupting like a volcano. The shock over seeing her precious Dudley reduced to a quivering, puking mess made her leak the bit about the dementors.

Maybe Harry can tick her off enough to make her recite the Dumbledore letter verbatim!

Puck - Mar 21, 2005 7:36 pm (#1805 of 2971)

I don't think Harry much cares anymore about not rocking the boat with the Dursley's. However, he will likely play it safe and ask questions while his uncle is off at work. I can see him pressing Petunia, and her letting something slip in frustration. She may even be relieved to talk about it. Lily was her sister, afterall, even if they didn't get along. I'm sure Vernon was of little comfort when they heard the news.

Just snooping - Mar 23, 2005 7:00 am (#1806 of 2971)

Czarina II, I don't agree here. Snape had a life debt with James Potter and James Potter only did what was a moral obligation to do. After all, no matter how nasty the greasy git was and is, NOBODY deserves to be mauled to death at the tender age of 17 (or 18, or whatever). James Potter acted with the absolute minimum requirement of humanity that is the same you show when you see a child playing with fire, or an adult who strolls onto the street without seeing a car coming... you yank the person back out of danger (even if he should have known better than to cross without looking). Therefore, a life debt should also apply for this case. Now you MIGHT convince me otherwise if you say that James Potter endangered himself in the saving of Snape.

Puck - Mar 23, 2005 12:14 pm (#1807 of 2971)

Just Snooping, I haven't found the original message you are referring to, but James did risk hmself. He ran down into the tunnel as a man, not a stag (we know this because he was never revealed as an animagus.) Therefore, he put himself at risk of being attacked by Lupin.

Choices - Mar 23, 2005 2:49 pm (#1808 of 2971)

But I don't think there was any indication that James got close to werewolf Lupin. Snape was probably between James and Lupin and James could have just called to Snape to warn him to not to go any farther because of what awaited him. I never got the impression that James was at any risk - if Lupin had come at him, he could have simply transformed, although I'm sure he didn't want to do that in front of Snape.

Puck - Mar 23, 2005 6:49 pm (#1809 of 2971)

I guess I was basing it partly on DD's statement to Harry that Snape disliked him partly because James had saved Snape's life "at great personal risk." Of course, DD didn't know at the time that James was an animagis

S.E. Jones - Mar 24, 2005 12:39 am (#1810 of 2971)

Perhaps this discussion of James and Snape should be taken to a more appropriate thread....

septentrion - Mar 24, 2005 2:41 am (#1811 of 2971)

Although I agree with the statement this discussion should belong to another thread, as I don't know where to put it and to keep coherence, here is a quote from PA which proves both Snape and James were in danger : "Snape glimpsed me, though, at the end of the tunnel". They clearly were close enough to risk a werewolf attack.

S.E. Jones - Mar 24, 2005 8:56 pm (#1812 of 2971)

Once more, please move this discussion elsewhere.

If you are looking for some place to put this discussion, try Not Covered in Other Threads or even the James and Lily Potter thread. Just repost the gist of the argument and post your thoughts.

Maiden - Mar 30, 2005 4:25 am (#1813 of 2971)

I did a search on snake on this thread, but didn't find a discussion of this scene: When Harry and Arthur run into Lucius Malfoy in the ministry after the hearing, Malfoy comments that Harry is good at getting away from a tight spot "very snakelike, infact". The connection between Harry and snakes here allways strike me as odd. Malfoy obviously knows from Draco that Harry is a parseltongue, but why mention snakes here? Is it meant as an insult, because it is hinting at Harry not being on the good (or right) side ? But why should Malfoy reinforce snakes as a symbol of evil? You might think snakes were positive animals to him.

To me the metaphor of a snake getting away doesn't really work and maybe that's why the line sticks out to me as if it is put there with a purpose. Is it a clue that Rowling needs to remind readers of Harrys snakelike, that is to say Slytherinlike character traits? Malfoy is a Slytherin man, so to him the snake will also represent Slytherin and the qualities you need to be there. Maybe Harry needs to remember the side of him that could have put him there.

septentrion - Mar 30, 2005 4:37 am (#1814 of 2971)

Or maybe the reference to snakes is an allusion to that Slytherin quality Harry has shown so much : to save one's neck.

Steve Newton - Mar 30, 2005 5:34 am (#1815 of 2971)

I have noticed that on occasion Lucius's actions can be seen as helping the trio. He passes on important information, usually through Draco, such as that Sirius has been noticed at the train station and that he is known to be an animagus. I'm not saying that Lucius is a good guy. I think that he is looking to win the battle over Voldemort and Dumbledore.

Solitaire - Mar 30, 2005 10:21 am (#1816 of 2971)

Interesting point, Steve. Could Lucius be a wild card in the battle against Voldemort? If he is a true Slytherin, he may wish to sstrike out on his own and establish himself as the Powerful One. This could be an interesting discussion, but I suppose we should take it to the Lucius Malfoy thread.

Solitaire

Puck - Mar 30, 2005 10:32 am (#1817 of 2971)

I think perhaps this is Malfoy's way of stating the Harry is untrustworthy. "Snake in the grass" so to speak. The Ministry has spent the summer trying to discredit Harry, this slams Harry, restating the Ministry arguement while adding a comparison to Voldemort. Trying to get in under Harry's skin.

Maiden - Mar 31, 2005 7:38 am (#1818 of 2971)

Puck, you are right that the mention of a snake seems to be a comparison to Voldemort. But this is part of what is odd. If Harry is supposed to be lying about Voldemort there is no need to point to the connection between them here.

I can't see snakes being a really negative symbol to Malfoy.

Ponine - Mar 31, 2005 4:53 pm (#1819 of 2971)

In effect, it strikes me as a foreshadowing of the fact that Harry will 'be the snake' later on. And while we know that Harry already has had dreams of the corridors and doors, I don't think Harry has yet to have a snake-perspective of anything. I am almost wondering if Lucius already at that point knows that Voldemort is trying to do, and is alluding (right word?) to this fact... He could perhaps also refer to the Chamber, where Harry killed the basilisk and got himself out of what could certainly be perceived to be tight holes. Not to mention the hole in the DE's ranks at the grave yard....?

Of course, maiden's notion that Lucius is acutally quite helpful on occasion is extremely interesting. *trots off to chew on this some more before continuing those thought on the Lucius thread*

Choices - Mar 31, 2005 5:36 pm (#1820 of 2971)

Ponine - "I don't think Harry has yet to have a snake-perspective of anything"

He definitely had the snake's perspective when Arthur was attacked and when he had to look at Dumbledore and wanted to hurt him.

Ponine - Mar 31, 2005 5:43 pm (#1821 of 2971)

Choices: Ponine - "I don't think Harry has yet to have a snake-perspective of anything"

He definitely had the snake's perspective when Arthur was attacked and when he had to look at Dumbledore and wanted to hurt him.

- Yes, those incidents were quite some time after the MoM hearing, which was when Lucius made the comment. I was just wondering if Lucius was aware of LVs plans. But, come to think of it, LV never intended to show Harry that particular incident with Arthur? sigh.. the more I think, the less I know...

Choices - Mar 31, 2005 5:57 pm (#1822 of 2971)

Sorry Ponine - I should have read back a few posts. I didn't realize you were talking about something from the hearing.

MickeyCee3948 - Apr 4, 2005 8:50 pm (#1823 of 2971)

I have a question? Upon my last reading of SS/PP I noticed something and although I have read most of the last 1,822 posts I don't think it has ever been discussed.

When Hagrid delivers Harry to Dumbledore at #4 Privet Drive. He has the scar but no one has ever said if there was ever any physical injury to Harry. A scar is normally the result of a physical injury that has healed. Why doesn't Harry have a bandage or why don't we hear more about what was done to heal the injury that occurred less than 24 hours earlier.

Mikie

Miriam Huber - Apr 5, 2005 4:10 am (#1824 of 2971)
Edited Apr 5, 2005 5:11 am

I think this scar is not an injury. At least not an ordinary one. Someone somewhere in the series (anyone knows who and where?) says: "This is not a normal scar. This is what you get when an evil curse touches you."

Solitaire - Apr 5, 2005 4:50 am (#1825 of 2971)

Wasn't there once an entire thread that dealt with Harry's scar?

Elanor - Apr 5, 2005 4:58 am (#1826 of 2971)
Edited Apr 5, 2005 5:58 am

In PoA, when Hagrid talks about that night though, he says "Jus' got him outta the ruins, poor little thing, with a great slash across his forehead, an' his parents dead..." (p.153). English is not my first language and I always assumed a slash was an injury, am I wrong? Anyway, I agree that it is not an ordinary one.

azi - Apr 5, 2005 6:12 am (#1827 of 2971)

Yes, a slash is an injury, like a cut. There was a thread on Harry's Scar, it was probably deleted, but don't take my word for it. Smile

Solitaire - Apr 5, 2005 6:20 am (#1828 of 2971)

Bonjour, Elanor! Yes, a slash is a cut--a big one. Remember that Sirius Black "slashed" the painting of the Fat Lady. Your English is beautiful!

Choices - Apr 5, 2005 7:45 am (#1829 of 2971)
Edited Apr 5, 2005 8:47 am

Remember we have about 24 hours that is unaccounted for after Hagrid gets Harry out of the ruins and delivers him to Privet Drive. He could have taken him to Hogwarts and the "slash" on his forehead could have been magically healed by Madame Pomfrey, leaving him with just the scar. Just a possibility.

Steve Newton - Apr 5, 2005 9:23 am (#1830 of 2971)

Maybe off the wall, but I am doing the read along and just, belatedly, realized that one of the articles in the Quuibbler is about Ancient Runes. Hermione is also studying Ancient Runes. Is it possible that Harry's scar is in the shape of an, are you ready for this, ancient rune?

Dr Filibuster - Apr 5, 2005 10:14 am (#1831 of 2971)
Edited Apr 5, 2005 11:22 am

Steve, it's a great idea. Have a search on the forum for "scar rune" and you should get loads of comments & rune research from fellow members.

Unfortunately, in her World Book Day interview of 2004, JKR said that the shape of Harry's scar was not the most important thing about it.

In earlier interviews she said she just picked a lightning bolt shape because it was distinctive. It's on his forehead because it's visible to others and a reminder that he's literaly a marked man.

So, she hasn't said "no, Harry's scar is not an ancient rune" but it doesn't look good for your theory.

Steve Newton - Apr 5, 2005 10:24 am (#1832 of 2971)

Dr., Thanks for the info. I could not remember what JKR had said about the scar. I'm just trying to figure out why Hermione is taking Ancient Runes. This seemed like a possibility.

S.E. Jones - Apr 5, 2005 12:17 pm (#1833 of 2971)

The slash turned scar could explain why Hagrid was around Bristol. He could've taken Harry somewhere safe to get healed, as Choices suggested.

Detail Seeker - Apr 5, 2005 1:06 pm (#1834 of 2971)

The "S"-rune is close to thes hape of a lightning.Besides its sound value, it symbolises the sun (Why ever this sign was connected with the sun,I do not get, but so it is written eg. Thorolf Wardel: Neue Runenkunde, Bremen 1987 and loci cited there).

So there is no contradiction between the runic assumption andthe canon information

T Brightwater - Apr 5, 2005 2:49 pm (#1835 of 2971)

Steve Newton, I think Hermione was taking Ancient Runes because she took _all_ the electives.

Going back to the previous discussion about how much Harry knows about the night his parents died, didn't Hagrid tell Harry that he (Hagrid) took him (Harry) from his parents' ruined house, the night Hagrid came to get Harry from the Hut on the Rock? And Harry remembers Hagrid telling him that, because the next day when he's worried about having the money to go to Hogwarts, he says "But, if their house was blown up..."

(I hope that makes sense.)

Steve Newton - Apr 5, 2005 4:23 pm (#1836 of 2971)

T, You're probably right but ancient things are pretty rare in the series. The ancient magic that Lily used to protect Harry, the ancient house of Black, and ancient runes, the ones that Hermione is studying and the ones mentioned in the Quibbler article. There may be more. I just wonder if they are connected.

GryffEndora - Apr 5, 2005 4:52 pm (#1837 of 2971)
Edited Apr 5, 2005 5:55 pm

The other place runes are mentioned is in the description of the pensive : "A shallow stone basin with odd runes and symbols carved around the edge. " Perhaps she'll help Harry make his own pensive (and it will sit on top of the Pillar of Storgé) like the one on the US cover.

Solitaire - Apr 5, 2005 6:25 pm (#1838 of 2971)

Wht is the Pillar of Storge? Is this something I missed?

MickeyCee3948 - Apr 5, 2005 6:35 pm (#1839 of 2971)

Solitaire you should be so lucky. Check out JKR Web site and the news concerning the "Pillar of Storge" which I believe was the title of OotP that was put on JKR's web site by some hacker. Perhaps someone more knowledgable can provide more information. LOL

Mikie

Ff3girl - Apr 5, 2005 7:04 pm (#1840 of 2971)

No, I don't think anybody actually hacked into her site. I think someone just had a screen cap with the title "The Pillar of Storge" that was made to look like it came from her website. I think that theory was the one to which she replied: "Get a grip, people." Then, she told us the real title of book 6: The Toenails of Icklibogg. ^_^

StareyedSlytherin - Apr 5, 2005 7:33 pm (#1841 of 2971)

GryffEndora, I'm guessing you saw that HBP countdown over on Mugglenet on April Fools? LoL!!

Anyways, I was also under the impression that Hagrid had picked Harry up straight from his parents' house, but it still doesn't account for it taking him so long to get him to Dumbledore... He probably did take Harry somewhere to try to get it healed. I've always thought of a slash as a very deep cut.

Melly - Apr 5, 2005 8:01 pm (#1842 of 2971)

I think Hagrid took HArry to a safehouse or something on DD orders until DD had organised the blood protection charm and got everything set up maybe also to let things settle down a bit. It is a bit of a mystery. It's curious JKR has never told us because there is whole 24 hours missing. Do you think she has never told us because it's not really important or because it holds some information that she will reveal soon?

There are also a few essays on MuggleNet that have some theories on this.

GryffEndora - Apr 5, 2005 8:48 pm (#1843 of 2971)

StareyedSlytherin - GryffEndora, I'm guessing you saw that HBP countdown over on Mugglenet on April Fools? LoL!!

Actually I was joking about the pillar part since I've seen others on this forum joking about the fact that the "pensive" on the cover of HBP looks like it sitting on some kind of pillar, and that, jokingly, it must be the Pillar of Storgé. I'm sorry for the confusion. The Pillar of Storgé was a fake title floating around before HBP was announced as the real title for the 6th book.

I knew I shouldn't have put the joke part in there. Once again, sorry for the confusion. Send the dungbombs my way!

Solitaire - Apr 5, 2005 8:57 pm (#1844 of 2971)

It's okay, Gryff. I just wondered where the "storge" part came from in the first place. Was it in the books and I missed it?

StareyedSlytherin - Apr 5, 2005 9:07 pm (#1845 of 2971)
Edited Apr 5, 2005 10:08 pm

That's ok, I just read your post and it reminded me of the countdown on their front page. They'd taken an image of that pillar from the book cover artwork and labeled it "Pillar of Storgé" ... or something like that. It was quite funny!

I don't think it's mentioned at all in the books. It was just a rumor that someone started back just before the book title was revealed, if I'm correct.

Hollywand - Apr 5, 2005 9:48 pm (#1846 of 2971)

Solitaire "Storge" is from the Greek, identifying parental love, as opposed to other types such as romantic love or filial love. I believe CS Lewis explores this concept a bit in writings on love in relationships. The mysterious "Pillar of Storge" prankster claimed to have captured a screen shot of text on a book behind the mystery door on Jo's site. Of course the faked shot was transmitted to all the fan sites, with lots of buzz. Jo squashed the hoax by opening the door on her site and giving fans the name of book Six, "Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince". The prankster admitted to the hoax. Now, Jo makes jokes about something being a "pile of storge" etc. I hope that's helpful.

The giant squid - Apr 5, 2005 11:11 pm (#1847 of 2971)

I don't know anything about Mary GrandPre's sense of humor, but I can absolutely see JKR looking at the final artwork and saying, "Oh, lord, she's put in the Pillar of Storge!"

S.E. Jones - Apr 5, 2005 11:26 pm (#1848 of 2971)

And now back to our regularly scheduled Harry-themed discussion....

Tomoé - Apr 7, 2005 7:50 am (#1849 of 2971)
Edited Apr 7, 2005 8:52 am

Colin and Dennis Creevey will be the new Gryffindor Beaters
Nice idea, but no. The new Gryffindor Beaters will be completely new finds of the new Captain’s. (jkrowling.com)

The question is: will the Creevey brothers be beaters.

The answer is: no, the beaters will be new finds of the new captain.

Why put emphasis on the fact the new Captain don't know yet the next Beaters? The Creeveys, weren't known for their Quidditch skills. Why does it matter if the new Captain know or don't know the new Beaters?

Unless it's Harry or Ron. But Ron wasn't that brilliant last year and he was on the team for only a year, could he become Captain? Or wouldn't Harry, the youngest Quidditch player in a century, who always catchs the Snitch (except for the match where Dementors came around) be a cleverer choice?

Your thoughts!

wwtMask - Apr 7, 2005 9:15 am (#1850 of 2971)

Ron won't be captain because JKR mentioned something about whether the new captain would let Ron stay on the team. Harry could be captain, I suppose, but considering all the other stuff he has to deal with, I'm thinking he'll step aside and let someone else (like the most senior member of the team) be the captain.

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Tomoé - Apr 7, 2005 9:58 am (#1851 of 2971)
Edited Apr 7, 2005 10:59 am

Harry is "the youngest house player in about a century", so if Alicia is still in Hogwarts next year, they both have been on the team for 4 years (no Quidditch in GoF). Therefore Harry is the most senior member of the team, maybe with Alicia, but it would be her 7th year and after what happened to Angelina last year, I'm not sure she'll try her first year as captain while she try pass her NEWTs.

And becoming Captain of the Gryffindor team could well be something on Harry's "things to do before Voldemort gets me" list.

Steve Newton - Apr 7, 2005 10:26 am (#1852 of 2971)

I think that Katie Bell is still on the team and has been longer than Harry. She is also a DA member. I think that she is only a year ahead of Harry and was already on the team when he arrived.

vball man - Apr 7, 2005 11:16 am (#1853 of 2971)

I think that Harry will be too busy with other things to worry about trifles like leading the quidditch team.

Even in OoP, Harry was disappointed when he couldn't play quidditch, but not horribly so. He dealt with it. As we saw him deal with it, I think that it showed him growing up.

Harry has bigger fish to fry than to worry about a Snitch.

Joanne R. Reid - Apr 7, 2005 11:26 am (#1854 of 2971)

Hi, vball man,

I didn't get that impression. I don't have all the quotes in front of me, but my feeling was that Harry was bitterly disappointed at not being able to play.

I'm sure that he will be eager to get back to the sport he loves and at which he is so good. This year will be especially important to him because he will have the opportunity to team up with Ron. Equally, it will be critical in Harry's ongoing battle with Draco.

Yes, there is no doubt that he will have plenty on his plate this year. But, I can't see Harry not playing Quidditch.

Thanks,

frogface - Apr 7, 2005 12:33 pm (#1855 of 2971)

I think Harry needs quidditch in a way. Yes he has a lot of resposiblity on his shoulders and he knows that now that he's heard the prophecy, but the poor kid also needs something to take his mind off all that, and quidditch is the ideal solution. Its something that he's very good at, it's something that he enjoys profoundly, and if he becomes a captain it might very well help him grow stonger as a leader as well. I think He's earned the posistion, it would be a reward for him and could help lift his spirits.

S.E. Jones - Apr 7, 2005 12:35 pm (#1856 of 2971)
Edited Apr 7, 2005 1:37 pm

We are already discussing which, if either, out of Harry and Ron might be Captain on the Internal Relationships of Our Trio thread. Maybe we should move the discussion there and join in with what has already been said.

I see what you mean by saying that Harry dealt with not playing, vball man, though I also see what Joanne means about him being disappointed. I think he needs Quidditch to help blow off steam, relieve anxiety, and to feel somewhat normal. He didn't have that opportunity last year, and I think it hurt him in terms of dealing with Sirius, Umbridge, Voldemort, Draco, etc. He did, however, find the DA to help divert his attention and energy, so that helped a lot. How does everyone think Harry will deal this year if he doesn't get to play Quidditch or doesn't re-unite the DA?

EDIT: I was typing as frogface posted... anyway, I second what frogface said.

frogface - Apr 7, 2005 12:41 pm (#1857 of 2971)

I'll third it Razz

I think that whether or not Harry continues with the DA and quidditch that he might start recieving personal coaching in terms of wizardry from Dumbledore this year. I think it would be an interesting prospect in terms of developing their relationship and in making both us and Harry more familiar with Dumbledore himself. Of course I'm basing alot of this on the recent book covers that show them together and basicly because Dumbledore is one of my fave characters and I want to see more of him in this book!

MoonRider - Apr 7, 2005 2:10 pm (#1858 of 2971)
Edited Apr 7, 2005 3:10 pm

Hi you guys!

Excuse me for interrupting......

I haven't read this thread, but I just posted the following, on another thread and thought it would do better, somewhere else-----if I've still got the inappropriate thread, I apologize:

I can't believe I didn't think of this, before-----please forgive me if someone already said this.....

What if when Voldy was possessing Harry in the MoM, DD didn't try to kill him-----not only because of the prophecy-----but, also because the spell would have rebounded-----just like what happened to Voldy-----but, it would have killed DD?

What if, if anybody tries to kill Harry, the curse-----or, whatever means is used to try and kill him-----would rebound onto themselves? I'm thinking that the protection that DD put on Harry was, like, "activated" by Lily's sacrifice-----I think someone already said this-----but, could DD's protection have been so specific as to work only on Voldy? Remember when Uncle Vernon was shaking Harry-----or, trying to strangle him-----or, whatever he was doing? Remember, he got, like, an electric "shock"-----what if he had put even more pressure on Harry-----almost killing him-----but, instead, he (Uncle Vernon) would have been killed?

Choices - Apr 7, 2005 4:19 pm (#1859 of 2971)
Edited Apr 7, 2005 5:21 pm

What if, Dumbledore just loves Harry so much that he would never dream of killing him just to get Voldemort? I can see that possibility too. Maybe he also knew that he might kill Harry and still not get Voldemort due to Voldemort's efforts to gain immortality.

MickeyCee3948 - Apr 7, 2005 9:25 pm (#1860 of 2971)

MoonRider Harry has been cursed by Draco in CoS and the spell didn't rebound. He was also cursed by Voldemort in GoF at the graveyard and the curse didn't rebound, so I don't know about your theory.

Mikie

MoonRider - Apr 8, 2005 3:11 am (#1861 of 2971)
Edited Apr 8, 2005 4:12 am

Choices: "Maybe he also knew that he might kill Harry and still not get Voldemort due to Voldemort's efforts to gain immortality."

That's a good thought!

MickeyCee3948: "MoonRider Harry has been cursed by Draco in CoS and the spell didn't rebound. He was also cursed by Voldemort in GoF at the graveyard and the curse didn't rebound, so I don't know about your theory."

Yeah, but, with those two curses they weren't trying to kill him.

Solitaire - Apr 8, 2005 6:26 am (#1862 of 2971)
Edited Apr 8, 2005 7:26 am

they weren't trying to kill him

I thought about that in connection with your theory as well, Moonrider. However, I suspect the rebounding business was a one-time thing. If it were something that went into effect any time someone tried to kill Harry, Dumbledore would never have had to be concerned about Harry, and he clearly is. In fact, we have seen him concerned for Harry's very life at many points in the saga.

I will admit I am intrigued that Dumbledore may have put some protections around Harry that were activated by something Lily did--according to DD's instructions--before she died. I do not believe, however, that he would have told her that she could protect Harry by sacrificing herself. Rather, I believe that by placing herself between Harry and death--by offering herself in his place--she automatically invoked the "ancient magic" about which Dumbledore has spoken, perhaps without even realizing what she was doing. And it may very well be that this is "wordless magic" at its deepest and most inscrutable.

Solitaire

Choices - Apr 8, 2005 8:02 am (#1863 of 2971)

I agree Solitaire, and I might add that the voluntary sacrifice of her life was what added to the powerful nature of the protection her death provided. I don't think for a moment that Dumbledore would have suggested that she do what she did.

wwtMask - Apr 8, 2005 8:59 am (#1864 of 2971)

I wonder about that protection. Is it total protection, or just protection from magical attack? Is it only protection from death? It would seem to me that the easiest way for Voldemort to get rid of Harry would be to get at him without magic.

I think that the protection that saved Harry from the AK is being confused with the protection related to Harry staying at the Dursley's. I think the first protection was a one time thing that only afforded him protection from Voldemort, while the other was protection from anyone while at home. This would then account for how others are able to harm Harry while away at school.

MoonRider - Apr 8, 2005 11:42 am (#1865 of 2971)

Okay, I think I'm starting to get confused.....

Here's what I've got rollin' around in my head-----hopefully someone can set me straight.....

#VALUE!

Now, what if the "rebound thing" wasn't a "one-time thing", but, like, a "short-term thing"-----like, it just lasts long enough for Harry to "come of age"?

Okay, that's one part. Now.....

see, what I keep doing is, like, comparing, or whatever, when Uncle Vernon gets shocked to when Quirrell gets his blisters-----because whenever I read, or hear of one I immediately think of the other.....

sooooo, maybe.....

I dunno-----I'm lost-----can anyone figure-out what I just said? LOL

I like the idea of Voldy having to use something other than magic if he wants to get Harry!

frogface - Apr 9, 2005 1:23 am (#1866 of 2971)

I don't think the two incidents are connected. I think the Quirrel thing was due to his Mother's protection, and I think he was just doing sort of subconcious magic when he was being strangled by his uncle. Sort of like all the incidents in PS/SS before he knew he was a Wizard (re-growing his hair etc)

Melly - Apr 9, 2005 2:48 am (#1867 of 2971)

Yes, I agree hat the electric shock on Uncle Vernon was just the emotional magic that happened to Harry before he knew he was a wizard and with the blowing up of Aunt Marge. With Quirrell not being able to touch Harry, Harry asks DD while talking to him in the hospital wing that question and I think DD said it was because Harry was filled with something so good (love) and Quirrell was full of hate and greed - or something along those lines. So whether that coincides with Lily's protection or not I don't know but I think that's how DD explains it to Harry (from memory).

Solitaire - Apr 9, 2005 8:17 am (#1868 of 2971)

Mask, I thought that's what I said in my first paragraph--that it was a one-time protection. I guess I wasn't clear. As to Quirrell, remember that Voldy didn't have his new body yet, so he was not able to touch Harry. That obstacle, as DD has said, has been overcome.

I'm sure that Harry is protected from some things while at the Dursleys' home, but that is likely because they are not able to protect him and DD can't be there 24/7 to watch out for him. He did as much as he could. I still feel, however, that Harry must be vulnerable in some ways while at Privet. If he were not, I doubt that Dung and Figgy would have been watching him so closely. Moonrider, I, too, believe this may be due to his own ability to defend himself now--something that was not true until he entered the Wizarding World. I hope this makes sense.

Solitaire

Choices - Apr 9, 2005 5:38 pm (#1869 of 2971)
Edited Apr 9, 2005 6:39 pm

It could be that the bigger/more powerful the threat to Harry, the more pronounced is his automatic protection response....if that makes sense?

StareyedSlytherin - Apr 9, 2005 8:19 pm (#1870 of 2971)

I think that Quirrell was not able to touch Harry because of Voldy posessing him. Voldy himself wasn't able to touch Harry.

I think that the shock could have come from the protection on the house, or as a form of self~protection magic from Harry, but probably had nothing to do with Voldy. Also, I don't think that Harry is necessarily vulnerable at Privet, but he is vulnerable while down the road or at the neighborhood park. And we know that he wonders around during the day, so that could be why Dung and Figg had to keep such a close watch on him.

The giant squid - Apr 9, 2005 11:59 pm (#1871 of 2971)

While I agree that there isn't really a connection between Quirrellmort being unable to touch Harry and Vernon getting shocked, I do find it interesting that the only two people who had violent reactions to coming in contact with Harry were Voldemort and Vernon Dursley. It makes one wonder, it does...

--Mike

Ydnam96 - Apr 10, 2005 7:03 am (#1872 of 2971)

Yes it does Mike! Indeed. But, I do think Vernon is ALLLLLLL muggle. I think it was just Harry and a combo of his anger/nervousness/excitment of what was going on at the moment that shocked Vernon. But, I think it was interesting that it was never mentioned again in the book. I think that means we are in for an explination in the coming books. JK wouldn't just put something like that in and not use it!

Solitaire - Apr 10, 2005 10:10 am (#1873 of 2971)
Edited Apr 10, 2005 11:11 am

I think Uncle Vernon hates Harry. His hatred is not the same kind as Voldemort's, but I believe he truly hates him all the same. Perhaps it is that hatred that caused the problem.

It would have been interesting to see if anything happened to Lucius in CoS, if he had succeeded in attempting to harm Harry. Dobby stopped him before he could make the actual attempt. But I believe Lucius is another who truly hates Harry.

I'm curious about Draco, as well. Does he truly hate Harry with a deep, dark, venomous hatred--or is it more a sense of dislike mixed with envy and jealousy? I believe it is true hatred, but perhaps he is just "mouthing" what he hears at home. I get the idea that Draco himself has been somewhat shielded from contact with Voldemort and DEs, and I'm not sure he really "gets it" where Harry, Dumbledore, and the evil of Voldemort are concerned.

Solitaire

HungarianHorntail11 - Apr 11, 2005 8:07 am (#1874 of 2971)

I agree, Solitaire, that hatred is what triggers such a defense in Harry.

Regarding the question as to whether his mother's protection is still intact, Dumbledore refers to it as a ". . . lingering protection that flows in your veins to this day." (Book V, Scholastic ed., pg 836.)

pottermom34 - Apr 11, 2005 10:26 am (#1875 of 2971)

I think you might be right Solitaire about Draco's dilike of Harry being more of a jealousy and envy. I too think he has been shielded to from contact with Voldemort and to an extent with the DEs. Meaning he has probably grown up with a lot of the kids of DE not knowing they were DEs. He has grown up and been taught to respect Voldemort as a ruler,and that Voldemort is a great wizard, but he doesn't know how evil he is, or anything about the connection between him, Harry and DD.

GryffEndora - Apr 11, 2005 11:12 am (#1876 of 2971)

Pottermom34 - he has probably grown up with a lot of the kids of DE not knowing they were DEs.

JK Rowling Official Site, Extra Stuff, Edits, Malfoy & Nott ". . . in this scene Theodore's father (the same Nott who was badly injured in the closing chapters of 'Order of the Phoenix') goes to visit Lucius Malfoy to discuss Voldemort-related business and we see Draco and Theodore alone in the garden having a talk of their own. I really liked the scene, firstly because it showed the Malfoys' home, and the difference between the place where Draco has grown up and number four, Privet Drive; then because we rarely see Draco talking to anybody he considers a real equal, and he is forced to see Theodore as such, because Theodore is just as pure-blooded as he is, and somewhat cleverer. Together these two Death Eaters' sons discuss Dumbledore's regime at Hogwarts and Harry Potter, with all sorts of stories that the Death Eaters tell about how this baby boy survived the Dark Lord's attack."

I think this edited out scene implys that Draco knows when a DE is in the house and when he's with the child of a DE. Specifically the part where they discuss "all sorts of stories that the Death Eaters tell about how this baby boy survived the Dark Lord's attack."

MickeyCee3948 - Apr 11, 2005 12:49 pm (#1877 of 2971)
Edited Apr 11, 2005 1:50 pm

I have to agree that Draco is more jealous and envious of Harry than having a pure dark hatred. I don't think that Draco knows that deep of an emotion. He is more like a small child who dislikes someone because he can't get his way with them. Or is upset because he isn't as popular as the other person. Draco has no reason to hate and has never experienced a real hatred. SO Far that is.

I have a question for the forum. Why does Uncle Vernon hate Harry so much? Harry has never done anything to him. Uncle Vernon seems to have a real concentrated hatred for Harry, WHY?

Mikie

Paulus Maximus - Apr 11, 2005 12:55 pm (#1878 of 2971)

He is more like a small child who dislikes someone because he can't get his way with them. Or is upset because he isn't as popular as the other person. Draco has no reason to hate and has never experienced a real hatred. SO Far that is.

In that last scene between Harry and Draco in OP, it sure seems like Draco holds Harry directly responsible for putting Lucius in prison and will stop at nothing to kill him... Or do you think that "You're dead" was an idle threat?

I personally think that Draco hadn't felt any real hatred... UNTIL his father had been put in chains...

MickeyCee3948 - Apr 11, 2005 1:03 pm (#1879 of 2971)

I did say "so far". Meaning up to the end of OotP. But I think that to a point Draco's "You're dead" was an idle threat. I don't think even Draco has an AK in him. JM2K's

Mikie

MoonRider - Apr 11, 2005 1:06 pm (#1880 of 2971)
Edited Apr 11, 2005 2:08 pm

MickeyCee3948: "Why does Uncle Vernon hate Harry so much?"

It may just be the age-old: "what is not understood, is feared"-----the same reason people hate others because they're a different color, or because they're gay, or because of their faith-----Uncle Vernon hates him because he's "magic"!

frogface - Apr 11, 2005 1:27 pm (#1881 of 2971)

I agree, I think Vernon is just a predujice idiot he doesn't even know why he hates people with magic powers.

Choices - Apr 11, 2005 4:34 pm (#1882 of 2971)

I think it's because of the "magic" thing, and also because Harry has dared to intrude in Vernon's neat, orderly little world. Vernon doesn't want to understand about the magic and he resents Harry because of it. He feels he is burdened by having to take Harry in and all this has just festered into a real hatred.

mooncalf - Apr 11, 2005 8:01 pm (#1883 of 2971)

I agree, MoonRider and all, that Uncle Vernon's hatred of Harry comes from prejudice, ignorance and fear. It is sort of the mirror image of the DE's hatred of muggles and muggle-borns; he hates all those with magical connections.

Solitaire - Apr 11, 2005 8:52 pm (#1884 of 2971)

I think all comments about Uncle Vernon are accurate. I'll add another one: I think he really hates that the balance of power has begun to tip in Harry's favor.

Harry is no longer at Uncle Vernon's mercy in quite the same way he has been up to now. Yes, he must still reside there a few weeks each year. Yes, his use of magic is restricted while he is there--for the moment. But that does not do away with the fact that Harry has the power to wreak some serious havoc on Uncle Vernon, if he chose to do it. That has to have given "old Unk" more than a few sleepless nights, don't you think?

Solitaire

TwinklingBlueEyes - Apr 12, 2005 3:18 am (#1885 of 2971)

I agree with most of the comments about Vernon, but I have to disagree with the idea that hatred "triggers" Harry's "emotional magic". I think Harry was just defending himself, pure and simple. JKR didn't express how Harry was feeling at that moment, but what he was feeling (strangled). I also agree with Soli that Vernon realizes Harry is growing up, not only as a person, but in ways he can't understand (magic), and he feels he's losing control of his little well ordered world.

Just my 2 knuts....

Solitaire - Apr 12, 2005 6:13 am (#1886 of 2971)

Do we know for certain if the "shock" was a result of Harry's "emotional magic"? Could it have been a part of the "magical protections" surrounding Harry? Could Dumbledore and/or Lily have placed magical protections on Harry's physical body as well as his surroundings?

Solitaire

The giant squid - Apr 12, 2005 10:09 pm (#1887 of 2971)

Well, Harry got beat up quite a bit by Dudley & his gang. If there were personal protections they most likely would have come up then. I'm not saying Dudley tried to beat Harry to death with his fists, but I doubt he would have been bothered much by the thought.

--Mike

S.E. Jones - Apr 12, 2005 11:18 pm (#1888 of 2971)

The thing is, although Dudley wanted to hit and bruise Harry, I don't think Dudley or his gang actually wanted to kill Harry. There is quite a bit of difference between giving another kid a black eye and strangling someone. Maybe Harry was, or felt that he was, in actual mortal danger while being strangled by Vernon. That would certainly give the protection a reason to work.

mooncalf - Apr 13, 2005 9:09 am (#1889 of 2971)

But sometimes the protection did kick in when Dudley's gang was after him. Remember when he ended up on the school roof when they were chasing him?

I still think that all that is emotional magic, though. It seems to be normal; in the Hut on the Rock, Hagrid asks Harry if he'd ever made anything happen when he was scared or upset. That seems to be how one identifies a magical child.

S.E. Jones - Apr 13, 2005 2:04 pm (#1890 of 2971)

I agree that ending up on the roof was emotional magic, but I was referring to laying hands on Harry with the intent to kill, or the desire to. Quirrell grabbed Harry while Voldemort was screaming "kill the boy", so I think that qualifies as Quirrell wanting to do Harry some mortal injury. Vernon was choking Harry to the point Harry couldn't breath.

fleur-de-lys - May 3, 2005 9:49 am (#1891 of 2971)

Harry Potter is the descendant of all four Hogwarts founders

I don't know if this has been discussed on or belings on another thread. I guess the Lexicon officials will decide that, but here goes.

Ok, I know the title sounds extrememly farfetched, but hear me out. I've been kicking this theory around in my head for a while, debating whether or not to post it. While reading another thread today, something else occurred to me. But is all starts with the Sorting Hat.

We know that in OoP, the Sorting Hat song states that the houses must unite.

For out Hogwarts is in danger from external, deadly foes And we must unite insider her or we'll crumble from within. (OoP pg. 206-207 hardback)

Now from reading that, the Sorting Hat seems to be talking to and about all the students within the school. But what if the Hat (is it a he or she?) is speaking of one student, Harry, and he unites all the houses by being descendant of all four founders, that the houses are named for.

I was just reading the "Why Voldemort didn't die" thread, talking about snakes, and the thought came to me, who is said can open the Chamber of Secrets? In the CoS booj, Professor Binns explains the legend of the Chamber. On who can open it, he says "Slytherin, according to the legenc, sealed the Chamber of Secrest so that none would be able to open it until his own true heir arrived at the school. The heir along would be able to unseal the Chamber of Secrets, and unleash the horrow within, and use it to purge the school of all who were unworthy to study magic." (CoS pg. 151 paperback) That got me thinking, How did Harry manage to open the Chamber to save Ginny if he isn't an heir of Slytherin. I know he speaks parseltongue and he got that from Voldie, but what if he's an heir?

I don't really have any aruments to make him and heir to any of the others, like I do for Slytherin, but I believe he's descended from Gryffindor from when DD says, about the sword, "Only a true Gryffindor could have pulled that our of the hat, Harry." (CoS pg 334 paperback) This was said to reassure Harry that he was in the right house, but I believe DD was saying more.

The school was founded over 1000 years ago, so that gives plenty of time for the founders to have off-spring. I'm sure there were some squibs along the way. According to the Weasleys, they have an Uncle who's a squib and they hardly ever see him. Perhaps many squibs become estranged from teh wizarding world and that's how Harry's family became muggle and not knowing much, if anything at all, about the wizard world. Well, this is quite a lengthy theory. I hope it makes a bit of sense. I'm anxiously awaiting thoughts on it.

Thanks for reading, Lori

Tomoé - May 3, 2005 9:20 am (#1892 of 2971)

Well, as Dumbledore said Voldemort was the last descendant of Slytherin, Harry couldn't possibly be one of Slytherin's descendant (unless he is dead but just don't know it yet ^_~), but he could still become the spiritual heir of all four founders.

Madam Pince - May 3, 2005 9:29 am (#1893 of 2971)

Interesting thoughts, Lori! I always thought of it like this: Voldemort / Tom Riddle "unsealed" the Chamber, then Harry was able to just open it. Kind of like "unsealing" was maybe "unlocking." The entrance was "closed" when Harry and Ron went to rescue Ginny, but not "locked." Does that make sense?

fleur-de-lys - May 3, 2005 9:35 am (#1894 of 2971)

Madam Pince, that was a thought I had when typing this. I guess that's the real issue with that piece of evidence. Is there a difference between unsealed and opened? Since both terms are used in the explanation, one would assume that once the heir unsealed the Chamber, any parselmouth can open it, as you said. But I've learned never to assume anything with JK. You just never know what she's gonna do. That's why I can't wait for the next book, but I'm a bit scared too.

Shannon aka Brammwell - May 3, 2005 9:48 am (#1895 of 2971)
Edited May 3, 2005 10:49 am

In the thread discussing whether Harry was the Heir to Gryffindor Choices had brought forth something very interesting that would apply to this topic:

It is interesting to see that when Harry was sorted, the Sorting Hat noted that he possessed qualities of all the houses.

Plenty of courage - the trademark of Gryffindor House.

Not a bad mind - Ravenclaw prizes intelligence, cleverness and wit.

There's talent - a quality for placement in Hufflepuff who valued hard workers, the patient, the loyal, the just and the true.

A nice thirst to prove yourself - Slytherins are ambitious.

Harry exhibits all the qualities of the four houses and he must use these qualities to unit Hogwarts and the Wizarding World to bring about the defeat of Voldemort.

I don't think that Harry could be a physical descendant to all four founders but that he could perhaps be a spiritual descendant based on all the qualities Choices had noted above. Further, we have already seen the seeds of his possibly uniting the houses in Harry's being the leader of the DA.

Ludicrous Patents Office - May 3, 2005 7:40 pm (#1896 of 2971)

Shannon wonderful post. I think Harry may have to be the spiritual heir to all the houses. I realize in the end it has to be him and Voldemort. I think he is going to need a lot of help getting there. LPO

pottermom34 - May 3, 2005 7:51 pm (#1897 of 2971)

Isn't it interesting that in the "end" it has to be Harry VS.Voldemort, when at the end of almost every book it has also been Harry V Voldemort.

Shannon aka Brammwell - May 3, 2005 9:01 pm (#1898 of 2971)
Edited May 3, 2005 10:47 pm

L.P.O (sorry had to short form it), thanks for the "wonderful post" note although I cannot take credit for the deciphering of the sorting hat/Harry and the four houses. That was "CHOICES", and he'd brought it up in another thread, I'd just copied and pasted it over.

But the addition of the spiritual heir/head was my bit!

Choices - May 4, 2005 7:58 am (#1899 of 2971)

That was CHOICES", and he'd brought it up in another thread, I'd just copied and pasted it over." :-) Thanks Shannon - actually it's "she'd" - just to be clear. LOL

Detail Seeker - May 4, 2005 1:28 pm (#1900 of 2971)

Having the main characteristica of the idealized character of all the Houses does not seem to be too seldom: You could say the same about e.g. Hermione (the "Know-it-all-attitude" is her slytherinesc trait) or Ginny. So, this need not indicate relationship between Harry and all the Founders.

The clue to Harry´s ability to open the chamber was being a parselmouth - and this he inherited from Voldemort that faithful Halloween. So, that is the "heirdom" to Slytherin.Of course he needed the brains to figure out, where to use this ability. I very much like the "unlock" and "unseal" theory. Under this, Riddle has already partly fulfilled the saga, Binns told.

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Shannon aka Brammwell - May 4, 2005 8:32 pm (#1901 of 2971)
Edited May 4, 2005 9:32 pm

Oops, sorry Choices, I was taking a stab in the dark as there's no bio for you! I still believe that your reference to the sorting hat and it's application to Harry reinforces that he contains all that the 4 houses value and could be the one to bring them together.

If Harry is the Heir to the Four Houses it would only be in a spiritual relation as stated above, we know that Voldemort is the last blood descendant of Slytherin!

Muggle Doctor - May 6, 2005 4:06 am (#1902 of 2971)

Seeing as Tom Riddle wanted a final confrontation with Harry, and seeing as he was the Slytherin heir, I think it was probably well within his power not only to unseal the chamber, but to decide who else could get in. Seeing as Harry is the only other Parselmouth, the restriction that needs to be put on the doors is simple.

A thought I had - I know everyone here probably shies away from Star Wars comparisons, BUT...

Bury your feelings deep down, Luke; they do you credit, but they could be made to serve the Emperor.

Switch Harry for Luke, Dark Lord for Emperor, and you have a combination of what Dumbledore and Snape have been trying to tell him (though Snape would NOT tell Harry that his feelings do him credit!).

Let us compare and contrast Anakin and Luke Skywalker with James and Harry Potter. In this case, the comparison is inverse because...

James is the beloved one, raised throughout his childhood by people who loved him (Okay, for James it was his parents, for Luke his aunt and uncle), and who (despite a somewhat imperfect adolescence) generally goes on to be a Pretty Good Guy until his death.

Harry WAS loved by his parents, but only for a year of his life which he can no longer remember (who here can seriously remember the first year of their life, i.e. all of it and not just images?). For the rest of the time he has been treated poorly, shoved into the cupboard under the stairs, been the Dursleys' whipping boy and servant, and grown up angry, moody and frustrated. Much like Anakin. Then he leaves his "slavery" and is introduced to vistas of limitless power (or so it must seem to him!). Much like Anakin.

As time goes on, people he loves are put at risk and some of them wind up dead, including one whom he had to leave (or at least see very little of, as they were wanted soulsucked or alive) and only see briefly again one more time just before their death (much like Anakin).

I have read the novelisation for Star Wars Episode 3 and will not spoil it except to say that... well, let's just say that Anakin Skywalker has, like Harry, a 'saving people thing', and that it his desire to do the impossible and save everyone which, as with Harry, leads to a spot of bother...

Given that Harry could have been in Slytherin, I think the parallel between him and Anakin is most apt. I do not think JKR intended this, whether she is a Star Wars fan or not, just as I am sure that George Lucas is not pinching ideas off of JKR. There may well be some unconscious "cross-pollination", as it were, but I think the themes of heroism/villainy, choosing your path and its consequences, temptation and redemption are so common to mythology as a whole that "plagiarism" seems a stupid charge to raise. And both fandoms, HP and SW, really are 'mythology' in the broadest sense of the word.

SW may have been a long time ago, in a galaxy far far away, but recall that the Potter History, if it is true, has also already happened in its entirety.

Shannon aka Brammwell - May 6, 2005 8:45 pm (#1903 of 2971)

Very detailed and interesting analogy between HP and SW Muggle Doctor. However in SW the dark side wanted Anakon to come over to their side whereas Voldemort wants nothing more then to kill Harry; he believes in the prophecy as is proof the first time he tried to kill Harry with the AK curse.

Harry has come to love the magical world where he has found a place where he truly belongs. He knows that Voldemort's aim is to destroy that world to make it his own. It is true that Harry has lost but he still has many things and many people which he holds dear. For these reasons I could not see him turning from those who are against Voldemort and there would be nothing to be gained as was the case for Anikan.

Further, we have to remember that JKR is the author, whose tales weave many twists and turns. I believe the road that Harry travels in the remaining two books will be alot more diverse and complicated than that which GL has aimed for in SW (not to discredit GL or SW). I just believe their aims are far different, kind of like apples and oranges.

Solitaire - May 7, 2005 3:09 am (#1904 of 2971)

Also, I'm sure I've seen interview transcripts--or some quotes on her site--in which Jo has said something like this: "You've been reading too much Star Wars!" This leads me to believe that she does not really intend us to look there for parallels.

Solitaire

Czarina II - May 7, 2005 7:59 pm (#1905 of 2971)

I don't think we should be looking for parallels between Star Wars and Harry Potter in terms of plot outline, storyline, morals, etc. However, comparing characters doesn't seem to be much of a problem. I think Muggle Doctor's analysis is very good, and the comparisons sound. Does this reflect the characters' positions in the story? No. Harry Potter is not about to turn evil or anything like that. But a pure comparison of character traits is hardly a bother, IMHO.

I think the "You've been reading too much Star Wars" quote is mostly in the context of Harry and Hermione being brother and sister and those type of parallels.

Harry Potter does indeed need to keep his feelings in check, but at the same time, his feelings/intuition are what guide him. Wizardry is not Jedi. (Personally, I find a lot of Jedi philosophy irritating and counterproductive anyhow.) Feelings are not shameful or misguiding -- they motivate us. Harry's anger is what needs to be controlled. But he is simply acting out his age. In the right circumstances, anger is a good thing. Harry is no doubt angry that Voldemort killed his parents and now Sirius. This anger motivates him further to defeat Voldemort. He does not like Voldemort. He will never like Voldemort, because he is angry at him (hates him, actually). This is where the StWs analogy obviously breaks up, with good reason.

Muggle Doctor - May 7, 2005 11:41 pm (#1906 of 2971)

Harry's anger wasn't the only feeling he needed to control; although his love for Sirius saved him from Voldemort, it also left him panicked, unable to think clearly (he forgot Sirius's magic mirror, the one thing which might have prevented disaster), and liable to make the mistake Voldemort was trying to lure him into. Anakin was lured into being evil because of his uncontrolled emotions; Harry has been lured into making silly blunders, and Snape is right about one thing - so long as he keeps on being emotionally unstable, the Dark Lord will always have a conduit into his mind.

Perhaps the real parallel is Anakin/Tom Riddle (orphaned, brilliant, turned to evil), but that's for another thread.

vball man - May 8, 2005 5:20 am (#1907 of 2971)

I don't want to encourage people to see a HP-SW connection, but...

The night after Harry's sorting and his first encounter with Quirrel-mort, Harry had this dream:

Perhaps Harry had eaten a bit too much, because he had a very strange dream. He was wearing Professor Quirrell's turban, which kept talking to him, telling him he must transfer to Slytherin at once, because it was his destiny. Harry told the turban he didn't want to be in Slytherin; it got heavier and heavier; he tried to pull it off but it tightened painfully -- and there was Malfoy, laughing at him as he struggled with it -then Malfoy turned into the hook-nosed teacher, Snape, whose laugh became high and cold -- there was a burst of green light and Harry woke, sweating and shaking.

I think that Harry will have a big struggle with whether he should be good, or "join the dark side."

frogface - May 8, 2005 5:28 am (#1908 of 2971)

I don't know if Harry will be tempted, after all Voldemort and the Death Eaters have never supplied Harry with anything but pain, and no promises of power so far. But I think perhapes Snape will have to make a big choice in the last two books about "where his loyalty's lie"

Ms Amanda - May 8, 2005 5:52 am (#1909 of 2971)

Ohhhh. Frogface, that quote about Snape got me thinking. I posted over on the Snape thread.

Harry won't be tempted to join the "dark side." Harry is never going to be a follower of the Dark Lord, and he does not seek power over people. Without the desire to have power over people, what could the Death Eaters or Voldemort offer him? Besides, Voldemort believes the prophecy and Harry wouldn't believe he'd be allowed to live.

What Harry isn't prepared for, however, is someone he trusts being tempted. I see Harry's reaction to Marietta forshadowing a bigger betrayal, or maybe just something Harry sees as a betrayal. I also see it as a step in Harry's character development; this way we can see Harry have a more mature reaction to someone else's temptation. I'm going to go use the search function now; I'm certain other people have said that better than I just did.

Joanne R. Reid - May 8, 2005 7:01 am (#1910 of 2971)

Hi, Vball Man,

I see what you mean, but I had interpreted that particular passage differently. I had thought that this was Voldemort, physically as well as metaphorically speaking directly to Harry. If he could persuade Harry to join Slytherin, he would have great control and influence over him. Ultimately, he wold be able to isolate and kill Harry.

Thanks,

Miriam Huber - May 8, 2005 12:27 pm (#1911 of 2971)

Yes, Joanne, I am with you on that. I always thought, too, that it was Voldemort trying to get Harry on his side -- perhaps mixed up with bits of HarryÂ´s imagination.

Ms Amanda - May 8, 2005 12:39 pm (#1912 of 2971)

Well, Voldie does ask Harry to join him in the chamber where the stone was kept.

So, Harry has already faced that choice.

Muggle Doctor - May 8, 2005 2:11 pm (#1913 of 2971)

The next choice, the foreshadowing of which we have seen in his fight with Bellatrix, is how 'dark' he is prepared to become in order to defeat the enemy. Ultimately nobody who wasn't a DE would care if he used the AK against Voldemort - that would seem to be a special case - but will he be tempted to use things like unforgivable curses again, or will he be, at the start of Book 6, so horrified by what he's done that he swears off them until the final confrontation?

I cannot draw the SW parallel without spoiling the story.

Solitaire - May 8, 2005 3:09 pm (#1914 of 2971)

I cannot draw the SW parallel without spoiling the story

Without spoiling what story, Muggle Doc? I must have missed something back a ways ... Surely everyone who hangs out at this site has read all five books. Any speculation about book 6 is just that--speculation and a little "educated guessing."

Solitaire

Puck - May 8, 2005 6:41 pm (#1915 of 2971)

I am guessing that Harry will defeat Voldy in another way, not the AK curse. Bellatrix said you need to ENJOY using an unforgivable curse. Harry wants Voldy gone, but does not like the idea of becoming a murderer. Remember, that's why Peter is free, he didn't think his Dad would want Sirius and Remus to become murderers. Harry will kill Voldy if necessary, but he won't enjoy doing it, and thus I don't see the AK as an option.

Ludicrous Patents Office - May 8, 2005 6:43 pm (#1916 of 2971)

It will be interesting to see what kind of "mood" Harry is in at the beginning of the book. I hope he does not use the "unforgivables" again. Maybe he learned that he can't really mean it so he can't do it. I don't think he will go to the dark side. I think he may have to sacrifice himself to end Voldemort's power. LPO

MickeyCee3948 - May 8, 2005 8:04 pm (#1917 of 2971)

I think Hermione and Dumbledore will be able to come up with a way for Harry to defeat Voldemort that will not require the unforgivables. I always remember Dumbledore's "there are things worse than death" comment to Voldemort.

Mikie

Muggle Doctor - May 8, 2005 11:27 pm (#1918 of 2971)

Sorry, Solitaire; I meant the Star Wars story.

frogface - May 9, 2005 1:11 am (#1919 of 2971)

It will be interesting to see what kind of mood Harry will be in this year. I hope he is slighty more passive, I think Lupin would be a good person to help calm Harry down, as Lupin has experienced almost as must hardship as Harry in his life, yet he manages to keep himself in check.

As for killing Voldemort...well the archway in the MoM always sticks out in my mind. I'm certain that however Voldemort might die, we haven't seen the last of that archway just yet.

Miriam Huber - May 9, 2005 4:30 am (#1920 of 2971)
Edited May 9, 2005 5:31 am

Muggle Doctor, I think that is a very interesting idea.

I always wondered if Harry would (again, if you count CoS) have to choose the "right way", but as people in the forum have pointed out already, it is very, VERY unlikely that Harry should be tempted even in the slightest to go over to Voldemort, after all that happened. But, in a way, I feel like there is a "temptation" missing for our hero, if you understand me.

Perhaps his temptation will really be more a "Crouch one" (thatÂ´s the way I understand your post) -- and even a bit like SiriusÂ´ behaviour (who did not feel sorry sending Snape to a werewolf, even about twenty years afterwards): fighting the dark side, but not always with "good weapons".

So it might be HarryÂ´s way to "mature morally": to accept that you shall not do everything you can, even when fighting the Dark...

Joanne R. Reid - May 9, 2005 7:22 am (#1921 of 2971)

Hi,

Yes, I agree with everyone. I can't see Harry using one of the Unforgivable Curses to destroy Voldemort.

Bellatrix pointed out that to use one of them, you REALLY had to want to cause injury, pain or death. That is, using my words, one has to be Evil to use them. In order for Harry to use them, he'd have to become as evil as Voldemort, Bellatrix, et. al. Then, if he were to destroy Voldemort, Harry would only be setting himself up as the next Dark Lord.

I do recognize that these observation reek of SW and LotR. However, this is the story of a hero fighting Evil. One of the critical aspects of any story of this type is the temptation to use Evil to confront Evil. The hero must knowingly eschew this option, else fall into the trap of Evil.

It's a grand theme, and one that needs to be retold as often as is possible.

Thanks,

T Brightwater - May 9, 2005 1:16 pm (#1922 of 2971)

I think another, and perhaps better, parallel for Harry is Meg Murry in Madeleine L'Engle's _A Wrinkle in Time_. Meg at one point has to rescue her little brother who is possessed by an alien intelligence, and during this battle realizes that hate cannot overcome evil, only love can. Her moments of despair, self-doubt, and obnoxiousness seem to me to be much like what Harry feels in OotP. This book and its sequels also follow the theme Joanne just summed up so neatly.

Archangel - May 9, 2005 5:45 pm (#1923 of 2971)

I think the tag line in the GoF trailer nicely sumps up the decision that Harry will have to make in the series -- choose what is right or choose what is easy.

Also, Voldemort hasn't really offered something that would make Harry go "Hmm.." Voldemort could leverage his knowledge of what happened during that fateful night in Godric's Hollow to lure Harry and do the whole hero tempting/twist facts/join the Dark side thing.

Ludicrous Patents Office - May 9, 2005 7:07 pm (#1924 of 2971)

I honestly don't think Voldemort will try and tempt Harry. He does not want to be overthrown by anyone. Harry has proven himself to be a threat. If the power to defeat Voldemort is Love, Harry must hang on to that. LPO

HungarianHorntail11 - May 10, 2005 10:19 am (#1925 of 2971)

He could have a LotR-ish moment where he puts on the ring at the edge and says, "the ring is mine!", but I don't see it, as Harry has too many personal vendettas against the dark side. Not to mention that he feels he needs to protect those near and dear to him.

Solitaire - May 10, 2005 10:36 am (#1926 of 2971)

I do not see Harry harboring any secret longing to hold power in the Wizarding World. He might enjoy fame as a professional Quidditch player someday, but I rather think he has had his fill of being in the spotlight for "other reasons."

Solitaire

frogface - May 11, 2005 1:51 am (#1927 of 2971)

It is possible that his connection to Voldemort could bring out an evil side in him that he has to fight inside him. But I think the temptation card is played too much in this kind of stories, if there is going to be a choice between good and evil to be made, I'd prefer it to be a choice for Snape or Peter to make.

Eric Bailey - May 11, 2005 3:28 am (#1928 of 2971)

Bellatrix pointed out that to use one of them, you REALLY had to want to cause injury, pain or death. That is, using my words, one has to be Evil to use them. In order for Harry to use them, he'd have to become as evil as Voldemort, Bellatrix, et. al. Then, if he were to destroy Voldemort, Harry would only be setting himself up as the next Dark Lord.

That may be what Bella says, but...

Aurors know them, and used them in the last war, I'd guess very efficiently. Remember the bit about Moody taking Death Eaters alive, if possible. It wasn't always possible. The Aurors we know aren't evil, but the job probably does require a certain amount of detachment from their work, when it requires something ugly.

That said, the killing curse won't permanently finish Voldemort, considering he survived the one that rebounded on him. He knows how to shift his conciousness into other bodies. So, they'll have to come up with something that'll prevent him from doing that.

GryffEndora - May 11, 2005 7:48 am (#1929 of 2971)

frogface - It is possible that his connection to Voldemort could bring out an evil side in him that he has to fight inside him. But I think the temptation card is played too much in this kind of stories, if there is going to be a choice between good and evil to be made, I'd prefer it to be a choice for Snape or Peter to make.

However, the increasing number of references to a snake laying dormant inside of Harry and waking up preparing to strike lead me to believe that he will have to deal with some kind of internal struggle against anger or darkness. Yes, I do think these references are related to part of Voldemort that was transferred to Harry, but the fact remains that part of LV is now a part of Harry and if Harry cannot defeat LV with in himself how will he ever defeat LV in real life? I guess what I'm saying is that while the temptation to the dark side theme has been played out many times before I feel it is an integral part of the structure of this kind of myth and must be played out in order to find resolution. I'm sure Jo will find a new and exciting way for this to happen so that we will not want to say "Yawn, been there done that, bored now."

librarian314 - May 11, 2005 8:12 am (#1930 of 2971)

Hey all!

I think that since this is an epic tale of good vs. evil and the choices one makes to vanquish said evil, the comparisons to other other epic tales (King Arthur, LotR, SW) are perfectly valid. I do it regularly myself.

A major plot point in all of these stories is that the hero faces a strong temptation to the side of evil and does not succumb. (Frodo almost did but the decision was taken away from him.) Has Harry faced his temptation?

I don't think so. I think that that's what HBP will contain. Harry is finally old enough to truly be tempted. It's hard to tempt people to Evil until they are old enough to understand what's really going on, somewhere in their teen years. Harry and the rest of the rising 6th and 5th years (to include Ginny and Luna) have enough life experience to understand the differences of Good and Evil, and may even be beginning to get some of the nuances. I think he could be tempted if he thought his actions would save someone he cared about. Something along the lines of, "You do X and I won't kill Ron (Hermione, Ginny, Remus, everyone at Hogwarts, etc.)"

The hard lesson that he will have to learn is that sometimes you have to let people die in order for the greater good to be achieved. We've seen him face death (his parents, Sirius, Cedric, himself) but he's yet to send someone to their death. He may feel like it was his fault Sirius died but it was Sirius' free will that took him to the DoM that night, not Harry telling him to go there. Harry has not yet said, "I need you to go do this thing that will probably get you killed, so these other people can do this other thing that will be really valuable." That's a hard lesson but one that leaders in a war have to learn to be most effective.

We got a foreshadowing of this in CoS, when Ron sacrificed himself in the chess game. Harry let Ron do this when he didn't really want to, hoping that he wouldn't really die. I think in this next book, he'll have to let someone else go into danger without the hope that they will return.

Thank goodness that HBP is just over two months away, I'm not certain if I can take too much more speculation!

# *michelle the librarian**

Steve Newton - May 11, 2005 8:16 am (#1931 of 2971)

The hard lesson that he will have to learn is that sometimes you have to let people die in order for the greater good to be achieved.

Wow, one of the later Animorph books did this. One of the major characters took one for the team.

LooneyLuna - May 11, 2005 8:51 am (#1932 of 2971)

Michelle, you make an excellent point. In order for Harry to assume a leadership role within the Order, he'll have to make those types of decisions and accept their consequences. Sirius pointed out to Fred & George in OotP, "That's why you're not in the Order, some things are worth dying for."

Joanne R. Reid - May 11, 2005 8:59 am (#1933 of 2971)

Hi,

Yes, the theme of Good vs Evil is one of the greatest of all time. It's the basis of most of the really good stories.

I'd also like to address Eric's concerns. He, quite rightly, points out that the Aurors were authorized to use the Unforgiveable Curses by Barty Crouch, Sr. I'd suggest that there is a huge difference between authorization and use.

For instance, the police and the Armed Forces are authorized to use deadly force. But, that use is severely proscribed. If the police shoot a person, they face a temporary suspension, are assigned to desk duties and face an inquiry, which must exonerate them, else they can be dismissed or prosecuted. Similary, the Armed Forces are only authorized to use their awesome array of killing machines under severely proscribed circumstances. Even then, their actions are under constant scrutiny. Misbehavior can result in court-martial and even execution.

So, I would suggest that the authorization to use extreme force is very different from the criminals' use. The criminal is unrestricted by codes of conduct. Often, extreme crimes are required for entry into local criminal organizations. Further, such organizations actively seek out the sociopath who kills for no reason at all or the disturbed person who kills because they like it. In this regard, I see a huge difference between the Aurors being authorized to use the Unforgiveable Curses and Lord Voldemort's or Bellatrix's great joy and extreme pleasure in inflicting pain, suffering and death.

Finally, I would like to point out the consequences of Barty Crouch's actions upon his life and carreer. His authorization backfired. The Aurors didn't kill the Death Eaters, except in extremis. They captured the DEs and brought them back for trial. That is, everyone in the WW was revulsed by the use of the Unforgiveable Curses. And, for his extremism in the face of provocation, Barty Crouch, Sr., was sidetracked from his goal of becoming Minister of Magic. He became a pathetic figure, used by Voldemort to return to power.

Thanks,

Muggle Doctor - May 11, 2005 2:29 pm (#1934 of 2971)
Edited May 11, 2005 3:38 pm

Joanne, I'm not sure I can completely agree with your viewpoint. Significant numbers of Death Eaters WERE killed by aurors in the course of duty, the aurors no doubt realising that their opponents were too dangerous to be taken alive. In war, it is permissible to kill your opponent ON SIGHT - in fact, it is necessary, lest he kill you first. Crouch Snr recognised this fact - the fate of humanity was in the balance, and desperate measures were mandatory. The fact that he became the 'fall guy' for all the terrible decisions that were taken (and some were clearly unacceptable, like dispatch to Azkaban without trial) takes nothing away from the fact that his willingness to be harsh may well have saved the Wizarding World.

It is easy to argue that Harry did that as a baby, but Voldemort was not the only Dark wizard - there were plenty of Death Eaters out there that still had to be taken care of. And Crouch Snr only became a pathetic figure because he let his wife talk him into freeing Barty Jnr, when he was in fact completely correct in leaving him to rot. The boy was guilty as hell. Hats off to Crouch Snr for making the harsh, but correct, decision to send him there in the first place. If only he'd left him there.

The problem with the Wizarding World is that, having hidden itself from the general run of human affairs, it has had far too few problems of its own for its people to cope effectively with a very large one. Voldemort and his followers took advantage of the Wizarding World's weakness and unpreparedness for a bitter life-or-death struggle, just as Hitler (initially) took advantage of a Europe that was eager to appease rather than fight him. And it made it all the bloodier when battle was finally joined.

The end result is that the general run of 'authority' cannot cope, and must turn to heroes like Dumbledore (vs Grindlewald & Voldemort) and Harry (vs. Voldemort), which it then permits to be treated shabbily when they try to alert their fellows to the resurgent danger - as Churchill tried to warn against Hitler.

The treatment of both Harry and Dumbledore (but especially Harry) is an indictment on the entire wizarding world (not to mention the Muggle world, viz. the Dursleys); the sad thing is that Harry will selflessly save both worlds (possibly dying in the process) when they have done nothing to deserve it - I hope the Wizarding World gives him his due if he survives, because he is due a massive apology.

HungarianHorntail11 - May 11, 2005 3:29 pm (#1935 of 2971)

the sad thing is that Harry will selflessly save both worlds (possibly dying in the process) when they have done nothing to deserve it

Well, we'd like to think so, anyway. What is it they say, "no good deed goes unpunished"?

Ludicrous Patents Office - May 11, 2005 4:55 pm (#1936 of 2971)

Muggle Doctor I really like your connection with Harry and Winston. Even after Winston was proven right people still did not listen to him. He saw the Soviet Union and Stalin as a threat to Europe. He was voted out of office for his troubles. The Wizarding World will still avoid believing that Voldemort has returned. Harry did a brave thing by telling the truth to the Quibbler. Hermione's timing was wonderful as usual. LPO

Choices - May 11, 2005 5:13 pm (#1937 of 2971)
Edited May 11, 2005 6:14 pm

Muggle Doc - "Significant numbers of Death Eaters WERE killed by aurors in the course of duty..."

Can you provide the book and chapter where you get this information? I would like to read it for myself.

Muggle Doc - "The boy was guilty as hell..."

I don't think that was ever proved conclusively. It has been argued that he may have been converted to a DE when in Azkaban and was possibly innocent when he went in. I'm not sure whether I believe this or not, but since there is no proof either way, one could argue this point from both sides.

Muggle Doctor - May 12, 2005 3:40 am (#1938 of 2971)

In the graveyard (GoF), Voldemort says:

...six missing Death Eaters, three dead in my service... and one who remains my most faithful servant, and who has already re-entered my service... He is at Hogwarts, that faithful servant, and it was through his efforts that our young friend (i.e. Harry) arrived tonight." On top of this, he notes that the Lestranges are missing (because they are still in Azkaban) - three dead out of eight missing (two of whom are Karkaroff and Snape).

This faithful servant is of course the younger Barty Crouch, who also makes references to returning to his master's (Voldemort's) service after his escape from Azkaban. So he was already a Death Eater when he went in, and his screams and pleas for mercy were aimed at getting him off scot free.

Tomoé - May 12, 2005 4:59 am (#1939 of 2971)
Edited May 12, 2005 6:00 am

Maybe he was a DE, but did nothing to the Longbottoms.

Anyway, he had a place in the circle, so he has to be a DE before Voldemort's fall.

Joanne R. Reid - May 12, 2005 9:10 am (#1940 of 2971)
Edited May 12, 2005 10:11 am

Hi, Muggle Doctor,

Yes, I see what you mean. At the same time, I think of the trials, with Barty Crouch, Sr., presiding. We see Bella and her husband (good old what's-his-name), Rookwood, Barty Jr., etc. The only DEs that appeared to have been killed were those who put up a fight. Mad-Eye seems to have been reluctant to have killed anyone, even though it was necessary at the time.

So, in this regard, I'm going to stick by my guns. It appeared to me that everyone, including the Aurors, were reluctant to use the Unforgivable Curses and sickened by their use, even when necessary.

Thanks,

Choices - May 12, 2005 9:13 am (#1941 of 2971)

So 3 dead DE's equal a "significant number' who have died? OK, I just don't think of 3 as being very many compared to how many Voldemort has killed.

I grant you it does look like Barty, Jr. was already a DE, but how deeply he was into it (how active he was) we don't know.

Muggle Doctor - May 12, 2005 6:28 pm (#1942 of 2971)
Edited May 12, 2005 7:30 pm

Re: significant number - I have already noted that out of eight who did not return that night, two were either defected (Karkaroff, ran for his life) or ready to betray him (??? all depends on what happens with Snape in the end). {I didn't count all the others (the ones who stood in the circle with Voldemort) because they had escaped conviction for their crimes.} Out of the six that the Good Guys managed to pin something on last time, or bring to heel, half had died. That's a significant proportion to me.

I suppose it all depends on how you do your accounting - do you count everyone who was suspected/brought in but later weaseled out of a prison sentence, or do you only count the ones removed from circulation?

As for Barty Jr, I think he would have to be into it pretty badly, to have no problems with killing his own father to avoid being caught again.

Tomoé - May 12, 2005 8:14 pm (#1943 of 2971)

Evan Rosier and Wilkes where killed by Aurors (Rosier took a bit of Moody's nose in the process), I don't know if they were among the three who dies in Voldemort's service, but the DE left gaps in the circle, and it seem to have been more than two gaps, so more prisoners and martyrs are likely.

Sirius said Crouch fought violence with violence, and authorise the use of the Unforgivable Curses against suspects, so innocent people could have been killed by Aurors, but we don't know for certain.

About Moody he said: I'll say this for Moody, though, he never killed if he could help it. Always brought people in alive where possible. He was though, but he never descended to the level of the Death Eaters. This sounds like he was an exception, but maybe it's just my twisted mind. ^_~

We also know that it took five DE to kill Gideon Prewett and his brother Fabian, they fought like heroes, so likely some of them were at least injuried.

Nowhere it says, black on white, that several DE were killed by Aurors, so we'll have to wait for July ... (still 63 days to go).

Phelim Mcintyre - May 13, 2005 12:21 am (#1944 of 2971)

Having just re-read GoF a number of things struck me about Harry. I have tried a search but found nothing so I thought I'd post them.

Firstly, while dreaming in Divination, Harry sees things through the eyes of the eagle owl. In OoP he sees things through the eyes of Nagini. This is an interesting point to do with Harry's powers.

The next thing is to do with Voldemort. He claimed in the graveyard scene to have gone further down the road to immortality that most, if not all, other wizards. This was why he did not die when the avada kedavra curse back fired. He also says that he was willing to give up the immortality he had gained to regain his mortal body. In CoS Dumbledore tells us that Voldemort gave some of his powers to Harry when he tried to perform the curse. Does this include some of his immortality?

Tomoé - May 13, 2005 6:21 am (#1945 of 2971)

Even more interesting, Voldemort was possessing Nagini, but he wasn't possessing the owl, so the GoF dream have nothing to do with Legilimency. Harry could be a seer.

Did Voldemort transfered some of his immortality to Harry? Only Jo knows ...

Choices - May 13, 2005 8:24 am (#1946 of 2971)

I don't think immortality would be considered a power. I could be wrong....that's just the first thing I thought of when I read your post.

Solitaire - May 14, 2005 12:04 am (#1947 of 2971)
Edited May 14, 2005 1:07 am

Interesting point, Phelim. Immortality may or may not be considered a power, but I do not see why it could not be transferred, as well as anything else.

Regarding being a seer ... Tonks made a comment about that in Chapter 22 of OotP: "There isn't any seer blood in your family, is there?" she inquired curiously, as they sat side by side on a train rattling toward the heart of the city.

No, said Harry, thinking of Professor Trelawney and feeling insulted.

No, said Tonks musingly, "no, I suppose it's not really prophesying you're doing, is it? I mean, you're not seeing the future, you're seeing the present ... It's odd, isn't it? Useful, though ..."

I suppose that could be taken one of two ways--either it opens the possibility that he actually is a seer, or it nixes the idea ... or perhaps it simply lets us know what actually is happening. I guess it depends on Tonks's function as far as revealing information is concerned.

Solitaire

Miriam Huber - May 14, 2005 2:43 am (#1948 of 2971)

Well, we all know that Voldemort is NOT immortal, so he could not have transferred it to Harry. He was "on the way", and perhaps (he says so, but we don´t know if it is true) some steps he took prevented him from being killed by his rebounding AK, but if he had already been immortal, he had had no use for the Philosopher´s Stone.

Muggle Doctor - May 14, 2005 7:00 am (#1949 of 2971)

Perhaps it is not "immortality" that is transferred but the ability to survive (within limits) something which would otherwise be lethal.

Note that I said "within limits". Voldemort's existence was severely altered by the rebounded AK - he spent a long time as a disembodied spirit or possessing soul, before he could return to even the most rudimentary body. So his ability to interact with the normal world was not lost, but he had a hell of a time finding his way back.

HungarianHorntail11 - May 14, 2005 9:06 am (#1950 of 2971)

some steps he took prevented him from being killed by his rebounding AK, but if he had already been immortal, he had had no use for the Philosopher´s Stone.

That's a very good point, Miriam Huber. I wonder, if this would tie in then, with Snape's comment regarding a "stopper in death" meaning not yet immortal. (But I guess that's for another thread.)

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