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Hermione Granger

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Post  Mona Thu May 05, 2011 10:59 am



This is an archive of two threads about Hermione Granger, orginally posted on the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum hosted by World Crossing, which ceased operations on April 15, 2011.

Hermione Granger #2 (Posts from Nov 11, 2003 to Sep 26, 2009)

Kip Carter - Nov 11, 2003 3:44 am
Edited Nov 17, 2005 2:22 am
I changed one word in the text. - Kip 17Jun04

I changed the title of this thread from Hermione Granger #2 to Hermione Granger and changed the title of the linked thread from Hermione Granger #1 to Hermione Granger (posts from Aug 29, 2003 to Nov 9, 2003) when I moved the linked thread to the Archived folder. - Kip 9Mar04

Hermione Granger is one of the key characters in the Harry Potter series and because of this, the messages in her thread grow at a huge rate. The first thread Hermione Granger (posts from Aug 29, 2003 to Nov 9, 2003) accumulated 229 messages in the 74 days since we returned to the World Crossing (WX) system.

The original thread had 620 messages on November 10,2003 with the last message that day being Post #205 by LauraAngel. In an effort to consolidate some similiar messages on another thread, Hermione's True Age was moved to the end of the original thread and the 24 messages of that thread start at Post #206 and continue to the end where I have stopped any further posts.

The creation of this new thread allows those who care to look back and continue what wwas being discussed in a logical way without having to manuever around the 24 added messages. This will also allow for those interested in the moved 24 messages to now logical enter their thoughts into the new conversation.

Some of you may find this tedious and some of you, I hope, will find this a good working solution to the original huge thread. Regardless of how each of you handle this new thread depends on our working together. The nature of a forum is that new people come in and are faced with this huge number of messages to read and are somewhat intimidated by the amount that is needed to read before they can add their thoughts and ideas. This has caused many messages to start to rehash issues that some feel have already been discussed and problems occur. I hope my closing out the original huge thread and providing the links in this new thread will allow a new peaceful discussion of Hermione Granger to continue with new life and no preconceived ideas of what needs to be discussed.

The first message to this new thread will set the tone of the thread for future posters. Let try to make this work.

For those who care about the original thread with its added messages, I have changed its status to permanent (for how long it remains in that status depends on how this thread progresses) and have placed it at the bottom of this folder for those who want to read those the various posts.

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Post  Mona Thu May 05, 2011 11:08 am

Mad Goose - Nov 11, 2003 7:19 pm (#1 of 2486)
I wonder if Hermiones parents know of the danger she's been in, or any of the adventures she's been on?



Taylor Buetts - Nov 11, 2003 5:55 pm (#2 of 2486)
Hermiones fears

In PoA I noticed something, maybe there is another thread that I haven't read that discusses this, but to my knowledge no one has brought it up. Why didn't Lupin let Hermione take a try at the boggart? What was he afraid it would turn into? Hermione is not afraid of Voldemort as she said his name in Ootp, but maybe she was then. Any ideas?



Carina - Nov 11, 2003 5:54 pm (#3 of 2486)
I think Lupin had given Hermione a chance to answer questions and therefore, wanted to give the other kids a chance to participate before she got another chance. It could just be a time issue.

Also, it gives more of a punch when we meet Hermionie's bogart for the first time during finals. Seeing it in the class first would have created less of an effect, especially after Neville's bogart.



schoff - Nov 11, 2003 10:43 pm (#4 of 2486)
Or maybe Lupin did it as a red herring for the class when he denied Harry the opportunity to battle the boggart. People would have talked if only Harry didn't face the boggart. Or maybe he did it so Harry wouldn't feel upset that he was the only singled out.



Rich - Nov 11, 2003 11:09 pm (#5 of 2486)
I think both reasons are possible and most likely probable.

I just want to talk about something Taylor Buetts said, about how Hermione is not afraid of Voldemort. Why do you think this is?

Is she not worried because DD is on their side? Or is she just putting on a brave face in front of the Order?



schoff - Nov 12, 2003 12:18 am (#6 of 2486)
rich: I just want to talk about something Taylor Buetts said, about how Hermione is not afraid of Voldemort. Why do you think this is?

Personally, I think there are two reasons: One, she's Muggleborn and did not grow up in the "Voldemort is the most terrible thing ever" atmosphere like wizard children did (ie Ron). Second, I don't think she's quite afraid because Voldemort is intangible to her. She has never faced him as an enemy; she has only heard about the stuff he's done. I've heard terrible things about a great many people, but I'm not afraid of them because I've never met them. All bets are probably off though, if I had to meet them face to face.



Lenka - Nov 12, 2003 5:24 am (#7 of 2486)
I agree with scoff. I think the fear of Voldemort can't be created by reading the statistics, death toll ect., of when he was powerfull. You have to be there and live in the constant fear of your familly dieing to understand. I don't think Harry and Ron are as afraid of Voldemort as for example Mrs. Weasley. I also don't think Harry fully understands what Voldemort can do. Only when Harry realizes he could come back from the summer hollidays and find his friends dead will he realize the true meaning of Lord Voldemort's rise.



Sly Girl - Nov 12, 2003 11:55 am (#8 of 2486)
I've always thought Hermione had a healthy fear of Voldemort because she recognizes that most of the adults that she trusts hold him in a certain light. Hermione doesn't strike me as the type that would let her fear paralyze her, and she's probably rationalized her fear of Voldemort (which in this case, could be manifested as a fear of the 'unknown' which we know she doesn't really do well with) to a certain extent. She did still have trouble saying his name, let's not forget that. Which is another reason why I think there's something to that not saying his name business, but I'll save that for that thread.



S.E. Jones - Nov 12, 2003 1:51 pm (#9 of 2486)
I quite agree with Sly, I think Hermy is indeed afraid of Voldemort. Just because she's let the practical side of her personality take over and is refusing to let a name scare her, doesn't mean she isn't afraid of the person.....



Grant the Great - Nov 13, 2003 9:07 pm (#10 of 2486)
I don't know on the afraid-of-Voldemort issue, but I would like to comment on the boggart situation. My first inclination has already been stated: that he needed an excuse for Harry not to face one, so he picked the question-answering one. However, it could have just been that he saw Harry getting ready to face it, so he stopped it there, regardless of who was following, and then he used the excuse of question-answering.



Mrs. Sirius - Nov 13, 2003 11:36 pm (#11 of 2486)
Well, I always thought that Lupin didn't let Hermione face the boggart because her biggest fear is the (irrational in her case) fear of failure and doing poorly in school, poor grades and facing McGonagall. All of the other things that we see that the other students fear are outside, things that are outside of their control. Nevile fears Prof. Snape, but Prof. Snape purposely terrorizes him.

Hermione's fear is that she might fail or not excel. If the other students were to see this it would make Hermione a target for teasing and ridicule. Ron, who knows Hermione and her personality and standards already gives her a hard time about this.



Viola Intonada - Nov 14, 2003 8:00 am (#12 of 2486)
I am not sure which of the teachers knew that Hermione had a time turner, but I figured Lupin didn't have Hermione face the bogart because he was afraid it may reveal the fact that she had a time turner.



Essidji - Nov 14, 2003 8:18 am (#13 of 2486)
I believe as Mrs Sirius that Hermione's greatest fear is to fail. What would the Boggart change in in that case? And how could Hermione find a parade to this? I mean, we all know the "ridikkulus" spell, and how we must think about something funny to turn the boggart in confusion. But do you think Hermione could be strong enough to see herself failing, take distance from that AND find a way to laugh of it? I think she is just unable to take this at a second degree...



Blast - Nov 16, 2003 1:24 am (#14 of 2486)
But is not Hermione a logical person? As in the first book she figures out Snapes puzzle. She also says that most wizards are not logical. She knows what Voldemort is and what he has done. As for the boggart I think that Lupin did not let her face it because of the time turner issue. When she faces the boggart later, it is not infront of the class because don't they go into a wardrobe to face it?



Andrew Hunt - Nov 16, 2003 8:27 am (#15 of 2486)
I agree with Miss Evil Bunny. The only reason Hermione didn't get to see the baggart in the beggining of the year was because we learn what it is during their exam.



Little Ginny - Nov 17, 2003 12:48 pm (#16 of 2486)
When reading he boggart episode, I was not quite sure whether really every student except Harry and Hermione had faced the boggart. Perhaps the only reason Hermione hasn't taken the boggart simply is that after Lupin defeated it there was not enough time left?

Another reason might be that if Lupin knew about Hermione being top-student (and he seems to be informed about his pupils) he would assume that she is able to do it and therefore he would try and give people like Neville who are not so good a chance first.



timrew - Nov 17, 2003 5:56 pm (#17 of 2486)
Or maybe JKR was just saving Hermione's boggart for later on?



Grant the Great - Nov 18, 2003 8:21 pm (#18 of 2486)
I think in all actuality, it was just JKR wanting to throw in the joke of Hermy's boggart form at the end (it wouldn't be as funny so close to Snape in drag). Anyway, in answer to Little Ginny, you may want to check out this essay in the Lexicon. I read it a long time ago, so I don't remember what it's called, but it's about how many Gryffindors in Harry's year there are. They mention that there is probably another Gryffindor girl . . . but this isn't the thread for that. In any case, the boggart shifts into so many forms that there were enough to satisfy the fears of the four boys and three girls (Parvati, Lavendar, and the mystery girl). We know Hermione and Harry both didn't face it. Anyway, you get my point, just read the essay, if you want to know more.



freshwater - Nov 19, 2003 7:53 am (#19 of 2486)
I agree that JKR wanted to save Hermione's boggart for exam time....how else would we ever get to see her choke in an exam? Makes her a bit more human, and the humor isn't overlooked as it might have been had this scene been included with Snape in a dress.



Sinister Kittens - Nov 20, 2003 4:14 pm (#20 of 2486)
I always thought it was because Lupin did not want to single Harry out as the only person who did not face the boggart in class. But I see what you all mean about the humour.



Peregrine - Nov 21, 2003 9:39 am (#21 of 2486)
I was just reading that scene again, and the thought occurred to me that maybe Lupin wanted Neville to finish the boggart off. It was weakening as they progressed so maybe if Hermione had gotten her turn, she would have destroyed it, but Lupin was saving that honor for Neville.



Psychedelic Enchantress - Nov 23, 2003 11:21 am (#22 of 2486)
Edited by Nov 23, 2003 10:21 am
Do you think this could be foreshadowing?- That if Neville suddenly gets a new lease of life, and starts to do really well in lessons, that he won't be scared of Snape anymore?

I would love it if he earned an Outstanding, or, more realistically, an Exceeds Expectations on his Potions OWL. Can you imagine the look on Snape's face?

Back to Hermione... I wonder what will happen with her OWLS, particularly with the Astromony one, which she most likely didn't get to complete. Would the examiners have decided that full marks could hardly be achieved under such circumstances? Since, judging by how engrossed and horrified she was by the scene, she gave up on her star chart, too.



Killian - Nov 23, 2003 12:49 pm (#23 of 2486)
Good question! I was wondering how the examiners were going to grade all of the Astronomy exams as well. I figured that they would probably just scale it or something like that, since it seemed like everyone stopped focusing on their star charts once McGonagall jumped into the scene. I was also wondering if Hermione wasn't going to get an "Outstanding" for every subject. I mean, I know that she's good and all but it would be kind of disappointing if she ended up succeeding in everything.



SJ Rand - Nov 23, 2003 1:33 pm (#24 of 2486)
Psychedelic Enchantress: >>Would the examiners have decided that full marks could hardly be achieved under such circumstances? Since, judging by how engrossed and horrified she was by the scene, she gave up on her star chart, too.

I wondered about that too, but when everyone just got on the train at the end of the term it seemed like no exception was going to be made. I'd have expected somebody to say something about rescheduling. Even Hermione didn't bring it up on the ride home, which is very out of character. Things were back to normal enough that they had time to gossip about boyfriends....



Psychedelic Enchantress - Nov 23, 2003 3:09 pm (#25 of 2486)
It reminded me of my English Language GCSE, where somebody set fire to the Science lab and we had to be ushered out half way through. We had to stand around for the best part of an hour, and when we finally were ushered back in, most of us had completely forgotten what we were supposed to be writing about... and weren't allowed much in the way of extra time.

All the same, considering how dramatic the attacks on Hagrid and McGonagall were (even the examiners stopped supervising), you'd think some exceptions would be made.



Madame Librarian - Nov 23, 2003 4:10 pm (#26 of 2486)
Maybe as part of a subtle re-cap of the previous school year, we'll have a mention of this problem when Harry receives his grades during the summer. A letter enclosed with their marks may say something to the effect...

Due to the extraordinary circumstances that occurred during the Astronomy exam, the following allowances have been made...

Ciao. Barb



Carla Hodge - Nov 23, 2003 4:56 pm (#27 of 2486)
I sense off-topicness...I shall attempt to bring it back on :-)

Maybe Hermione's fear is dentists? Could you imagine the chaos that would break loose if she got a filling/cavity? :-)



Denise P. - Nov 23, 2003 5:07 pm (#28 of 2486)
Since her parents are dentists, I somehow think that is not a fear Hermione has.



Neville Longbottom - Nov 23, 2003 5:23 pm (#29 of 2486)
Maybe this is the reason why she didn't spend Christmas with her parents. ;-)



Killian - Nov 23, 2003 6:23 pm (#30 of 2486)
No, I don't think Hermione's afriad of dentists. That's just kind of silly. But I do wonder if her fear has changed since Voldemort came back? Whether it's like Mrs. Weasley's, in that she fears the people she cares about dying, or if it is of Voldemort, or what?



Sly Girl - Nov 23, 2003 8:24 pm (#31 of 2486)
Maybe Hermione's new fear (if it has changed) is a combination of both- she fears failing her friends- whether it be by protection or some other way.



S.E. Jones - Nov 23, 2003 9:00 pm (#32 of 2486)
Ooh, that's good, Sly. I could easily see her fear switching from her knowledge failing her to it failing her friends at some crucial moment. I wonder how that would manifest itself in a boggart? Harry's fear of fear was manifested in the form of a dementor is embodied fear to him, and Hermione's fear of acedemic failure was embodied by McGonagall. What would her embodiment of this new failure be?



Sly Girl - Nov 23, 2003 10:07 pm (#33 of 2486)
Perhaps Harry or Ron being struck down and Hermione in the middle, unable to help either one? Or her seeing someone go down and she's standing there trying to get a spell out and she can't, for whatever reason?



Carla Hodge - Nov 24, 2003 12:59 pm (#34 of 2486)
Indeed the intention was for it to be a stupid comment - I know her parents are dentists. I was attempting to get back on topic, I didn't want a Kippendo come shooting in :-)

Worked as well :-D



SJ Rand - Nov 24, 2003 1:27 pm (#35 of 2486)
What could be more on topic about Hermione then discussing a possibility of her not getting a top grade on an exam? After all, we're talking about someone who gives out homework planners as christmas gifts.



Emily - Nov 24, 2003 3:49 pm (#36 of 2486)
I don't think the grade will be that important, even to Hermione, since I never got the impression that any of the trio were going to take NEWT level astronomy. She won't be able to say that she got straight O's, but who would want to sit and listen to her brag anyway. Although she has improved alot about things like thatsince joining Harry and Ron. So that's my question - What influences have the two boys had on her? What influences has she had on them?

I've found alot; the most obvious being that she is no longer fussy about rule breaking; but I'm sure there are alot that I've missed.

As for her boggart- I think it would have been letting Professor McGonnagal(sp?) down by accidently revealing that she had a time turner. Or maybe the new DADA proffessor thinking she wasn't competent. I actuallyu think Hermione didn't know what her boggart was at that time. She'd probably never thought about exactly what she was most afraid of before then. I'm the age she was then now (13, for anyone who didn't follow that, it took me a minute to figure out), and I don't know many people who could tell you what their greatest fear is. Maybe, if you are constantly worried about being attackeed by your neighbor's dog, or falling into the lake next ro your house and drowning. But who at age 13 would admit that- to themselves or their friends?



S.E. Jones - Nov 24, 2003 5:17 pm (#37 of 2486)
Sly Girl: Perhaps Harry or Ron being struck down and Hermione in the middle, unable to help either one?

I agree, but how would it be embodied? Harry's fear of fear, Lupin's fear of his "wolf side," Mrs. Weasley's fear of losing her family were all demonstrated by one object or idea, a dementor, the moon, the dead Weasleys and Harry. Would it be something like what Molly saw, Harry and Ron dead? Or maybe a boggart them confronting her about not being there for them when they needed her? What do you think?



timrew - Nov 24, 2003 5:55 pm (#38 of 2486)
Could be an incredibly indecisive boggart that looks exactly like Hermione. An embodiment of her worst fears - not being able to make the correct decision at the right time.



Viola Intonada - Nov 24, 2003 6:51 pm (#39 of 2486)
I do hope they put the Hermione/boggart scene in the movie.

I wonder how Hermione did on her DADA practical exam? I wonder if she will get an Exceeds Expectations and Harry will get an Outstanding? Harry has to out score her in something.



Mrs. Sirius - Nov 24, 2003 7:00 pm (#40 of 2486)
Humm, great fear theories. Hermione facing herself, not know the answer. Unable perhaps to rush in and save her friends.

Mauruder5, I believe that it is Prof. McGonagall gives Hermione the time turner in PoA. She called Hermione and Harry into her office before the start of term feast to discuss Harry's run in with the dementors and to give Hermione the time turner.



Gina R Snape - Nov 24, 2003 7:01 pm (#41 of 2486)
Hey, Carla. Maybe Hermione has a fear of failing and a fear of fillings.

Marauder5, I agree that a lot of 13 year olds would have a hard time pinpointing what is their WORST fear. But then, I suspect a lot of adults might have difficulty too. I have fears, but I'm not sure I could definitively say "this one is the worst of them all..." Come to think of it, a boggart might be a useful therapy tool!

But I sincerely doubt revealing the time turner would be up there among her biggest. Aside from the fear of failure, I would suspect she'd fear something happening to Harry, Ron, her parents, and anyone else she cares about.



Devika - Dec 9, 2003 2:49 am (#42 of 2486)
I was just thinking what would happen if Hermione does not get top marks in her OWLs. Could it do something to remedy her one weakness... her overconfidence in her academic abilities?

I know I know... Hermione lovers will bash me up, but hey I love Hermione too. I was just thinking of the possibility that she doesn't do as well as she expected - of course not as badly as Harry or Ron who will never match up to her standards except Harry in DADA.



Gina R Snape - Dec 9, 2003 10:57 am (#43 of 2486)
I don't think Hermione will face any more of that academically. I think with the broomstick flying, the boggart, and then divination she's been confronted with the fact that not everything comes from books. She's a good student and there's no reason to believe she won't do well in anything academic. Well, maybe not the astronomy OWL practical, but that's an issue not specific to Hermione alone.

What I do see though, is a hard lesson about trying to champion the rights of those who do not wish to have their lives changed. Despite her seeming knowledge of the relations between males and females, she seems astonishingly clueless about the lives, values and social structures of other creatures--namely centaurs and house elves.



SJ Rand - Dec 9, 2003 11:19 am (#44 of 2486)
I think something will change with the house Elfs, and Hermione may well be central to it. I "bought" Ron's estimation of her fighting a non-cause until Dumbledore referred to Kreacher as being enslaved to the Black house.

With that, Rowling has acknowledged that it is slavery, even for the ones who don't think of it that way. She also drove the point a bit deeper by having Kreacher's greatest ambition as getting his head mounted on the wall.

Even when only one house Elf, Dobby, considered himself a slave it meant that they all were. These are fully sentient creatures with magic at or above the level of trained human wizards. Rowling can't just leave it this way now.



Gina R Snape - Dec 9, 2003 11:46 am (#45 of 2486)
Oh, I agree that JKR cannot just drop the whole house elf thing. I rather suspect that statue of magical brethren was a clue that things will change. But Hermione is misguided in her attempts. It is the first rule of organising that you cannot champion a people, represent them and not understand them. The house elves are resentful of Hermione and her efforts. She may have her heart in the right place, but she is going about it all wrong.

On another note, had I been at Grimmauld Place, I would have had no qualms about assisting Kreacher in achieving his goal.



SJ Rand - Dec 9, 2003 12:57 pm (#46 of 2486)
You and me both.



popkin - Dec 10, 2003 8:36 am (#47 of 2486)
Edited by Dec 10, 2003 7:38 am
I think that since Hermione is supposed to be like JKR she will end up becoming an author, and she will write a book to garner support for House Elf rights.

In the beginning the fight for House Elf rights will have to come from the outside, that is from non-House Elves. They are currently too downtrodden to speak up for themselves, or even to realize that they could enjoy more fulfilling lives outside enslavement. That is why Hermione is going to have to recruit sympathetic witches and wizards to her cause. So far, she seems to have only one recruit - Dumbledore. But, with his support and direction, she'll be able to make headway.

Hermione may be able to recruit Dobby to be a House Elf representative to the MOM. He'll need some lessons in diplomacy first, though, to be an effective representative.



Devika - Dec 11, 2003 2:34 am (#48 of 2486)
Or maybe Kreacher.... he's out of job ! ;-)



Devika - Dec 31, 2003 4:47 am (#49 of 2486)
I was thinking if it is possible that Hermione has some wizard relatives. That would explain how she knows so much about the wizard world. How many books could she have read in a month after all before coming to Hogwarts. Also how does she know of Hogwarts' reputation of the best school of magic there is?



Gina R Snape - Dec 31, 2003 8:25 am (#50 of 2486)
How many books could Hermione have read?

Well, we are talking about Hermione! I would guess she could easily get through at least 10 books in a month before school. It's summer holiday, which means no homework to being with. 10 books would be about 2-3 per week. Chances are she's the kind of girl who doesn't read one book at a time.

I think the wizarding relative idea takes away from her status as a muggleborn. But I wouldn't be surprised if she got onto Diagon Alley and started chewing people's ears off trying to learn things.


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Post  Mona Thu May 05, 2011 11:15 am

S.E. Jones - Dec 31, 2003 11:02 am (#51 of 2486)
Well she mentioned three or so history books that she'd read and Hogwarts a History was among them. I'm guessing that's where most of her information about Hogwarts came from. Then she probably surveyed people on the train or something and started in on the library once they got to school......



Sly Girl - Dec 31, 2003 5:32 pm (#52 of 2486)
Yeah I see Hermione just bursting to read something from the wizarding world as soon as she found out she was 'different' from other Muggles. But we shouldn't assume she just found out when she was 11 that she was going. She could have known from a very young age and been reading since she's been able to hold a book...



Lady Nagini - Dec 31, 2003 9:16 pm (#53 of 2486)
Edited by Dec 31, 2003 8:17 pm
Wait, SG, maybe I missed something, but being Muggleborn, how could Hermione know that she was going to Hogwarts before getting her letter the summer before first year?



Joanna S Lupin - Jan 1, 2004 9:01 am (#54 of 2486)
You're right Lady Nagini Hermione found out that she was a witch from a letter, she mentioned somewhere that she was shocked when she got it (I'll post exact quoe when I find it) and we mustn't forget that she is HERMIONE, I bet that when she got the letter she went to Diagon Alley and bought as many books as she could to feel confident when she get at Hogwarts instead of being newcomer who knows nothing



Joanna S Lupin - Jan 1, 2004 12:39 pm (#55 of 2486)
Edited by Jan 1, 2004 11:53 am
Here is quote:

'Nobody in my family's magic at all, it was ever such a surprise when I got my letter, but I was ever so pleased, of course, I mean, it's the very best school of witchcraft there is, I've heard - I've learned all our course books by heart...' page 105 American edition,paper-back

so there can't be any magic relatives, she's just clever and fast-learning



Lady Nagini - Jan 1, 2004 5:38 pm (#56 of 2486)
Thanks, Joanna.



Kathryn Pottinger - Jan 9, 2004 2:34 pm (#57 of 2486)
".......ever so surprised." Surely that's something of an understatement considering that muggles don't belive in magic or that wizards are anything other than fiction. I'm surprised muggleborns don't think its some kind of joke when they get their letter.



Joanna S Lupin - Jan 12, 2004 11:01 am (#58 of 2486)
probably they did experience some odd goings on, probably they can feel something weird about themselfes, they just do not know what that must mean until they receive a letter



Lynn Allen - Jan 15, 2004 11:59 am (#59 of 2486)
I've had a concern, speaking of Hermione's worst fear while facing a boggart, that Voldemort's followers might attack and kill the Grangers, Hermione's Muggle parents. They would be extremely vulnerable and an obvious target--harming them would shake one of Harry's best friends and supporters to the core, and terrorize every Hogwarts students with Muggle family members. Do you suppose there are ways she could protect her parents from attack, and does anyone think such measures might have been taken?



Lynn Allen - Jan 15, 2004 12:23 pm (#60 of 2486)
Sly Girl said: "Yeah I see Hermione just bursting to read something from the wizarding world as soon as she found out she was 'different' from other Muggles."

I agree that Hermione's first and foremost goal was to read everything she could find about the Wizarding World, including such essentials as "Hogwarts: A History." The problem is, however, that at age 11 she would not have had the personal experience to judge what was NOT being reported in those books, or what was misrepresented. She found out by observation that slavery was accepted by both wizards and elves which shocked and outraged her. I wonder whether learning her books could not be trusted was nearly as troubling to her as the attitudes her newfound community hold?



Madame Librarian - Jan 15, 2004 2:53 pm (#61 of 2486)
If what you suggest, Lynn, as a plot twist with Hermione's parents actually happens, I can see it as a huge Wizarding World crisis in that Voldemort and his DEs take the previously unheard of step of expanding this war into the Muggle world, not so much from pure nastiness toward Muggles, but solely as a way to get at Harry and his friends. It would be cause for serious and possibly open Wizard-Muggle cooperation (ala the time when Sirius first escaped only more so). Might make for some really interesting drama. Wow, Petunia and Vernon would absolutely freak. Can you imagine?

Ciao. Barb



Gina R Snape - Jan 15, 2004 2:58 pm (#62 of 2486)
Well, Lucius Malfoy knows what the Grangers look like, because he saw them on Diagon Alley at the bookshop. So, even if LV doesn't have the idea, Malfoy might take matters into his own hands, or give LV the idea for specific muggle targets.

I have to wonder if the Grangers as potential targets plays a part in Hermione spending less time with them on some unconscious level. I also wonder if the Grangers continue to escort Hermione to Diagon Alley. I believe she went with the Weasleys in both books 4 and 5.



Czarina - Jan 15, 2004 3:08 pm (#63 of 2486)
"...Voldemort's followers might attack and kill the Grangers, Hermione's Muggle parents."

I think it is interesting that Hermione spends more holiday time with the Weasleys than she does with her parents. Perhaps she feels that because she is different (maybe she has muggle siblings?) from her family, she would rather spend time away from them until she has mastered wizardry. In other words, she feels caught between two worlds and would rather stay primarily in one until she has found herself. I highly doubt she is turning away from her family; she is only temporarily staying away from them. Because of this, it would be especially heartbreaking for her parents to be killed.

However, I think it is rather likely for something drastic of that sort to happen to Hermione. Despite the fact that she is very concerned about Voldemort and is always pressuring Harry to practice Occlumency (and do his homework!), she is much more absorbed in her schoolwork. Other than organising the DA and standing up to Umbridge, she spends most of her time studying and sewing hats for House elves. What she needs to realise is that her tactics with the House elves are not working; she also needs to learn that Voldemort probably won't be defeated by books. She recognises the trauma that Voldemort inflicts on Harry, but does not go about a good way of treating it. (Not that she doesn't try, she just doesn't know what to do.) She is all about "fixing the problem" and "ignoring the obvious if it detracts from fixing the problem." Her parents being killed would profoundly affect her character, which I believe is due for a bit of a change.

If the Grangers were killed, Hermione would be forced to depend on the Weasleys. Such tragedy might improve (or fastforward) her relationship with Ron. Most importantly, however, it would change her attitude toward Harry. She might realise what he faces is greater than a whole mountain of homework.



Madame Librarian - Jan 15, 2004 3:30 pm (#64 of 2486)
Hermione's parents being killed by the DEs isn't the only scenario. They could be captured, held for ransom (with the implied threat of revealing the whole ballgame of the magical world to the Muggle world), or something like that. Again, a tactic by Voldemort to draw out Harry to the rescue.

Also, here's an odd possibility--loaded with irony: The house-elves disdain Hermione and her SPEW efforts, but they know deep down she's doing it from a sense of what's right, what's moral. So, when her family is threatened, the elves rise up and step in with their special brand of magic to help. Or, on the flip side, they really get offended and angry with her and create the situation that puts her parents in harm's way in the first place.

Ciao. Barb



Mrs. Black - Jan 15, 2004 6:48 pm (#65 of 2486)
Ooooh, I like this idea. It brings up so many possibilites. It does seem as though Hermione is due for some sort of tragedy, up till now she has been oddly exempt from them. As long as they don't do it before the they kids go visit the Grangers it's find by me - I really want to see Ron in a muggle house.



freshwater - Jan 15, 2004 6:48 pm (#66 of 2486)
Lynn wrote: I wonder whether learning her books could not be trusted was nearly as troubling to her as the attitudes her newfound community hold?

I thought it was interesting that, in the battle at the MOM, when hit with an Impedimentia curse "Hermionie smashed into a bookcase and was promptly deluged in a cascade of heavy books..." (US, OoP, p. 792). Talk about being betrayed by her favorite items!



Julia. - Jan 15, 2004 7:45 pm (#67 of 2486)
Well spotted, Freshwater I've read that scene more times than I care to admit and I missed the irony. Good Job.



Fawkes Forever - Jan 16, 2004 6:35 am (#68 of 2486)
Wow, have you guys all been reading my mind. Just last night I was thinking about Hermiones parents & how vulnerable they are. My exact thoughts where (apart from I need a life ), if the DE's escape from Azkaban, is going after the Grangers something Malfoy would do? That scene in CoS where Malfoy comments on Hermiones parents has always bothered me, & note they kept that in the movie! (but thats for another thread)

Hermione is still quite close to her parents however, they come to collect her from the train at the end of OotP, but I did notice that Molly welcomes Hermione home before her parents do, unless they where running late & just got to the train station as Molly was welcoming the kids. I also noted that Hermione 'disengages herself' from her mothers hug, to go over & join the 'posse' as they are warning the Dursleys to treat Harry with a bit of respect!

Perhaps it's a bit of foreshadowing that the more she is involved in the Wizarding World, the more she will remove herself from her parents world! Admittedly, it would be very hard to live amongst muggles once you know that you really belong to the wizard world!

Also, I'm not sure of the exact quote, but I think there where Muggle killings during the first reign of Voldemort! Any one remember that?

Although I don't want to see anything bad happen to anyone, I feel that book 6 will have quite a few deaths in it, just to prove that it is a war after all! Hermiones parents are still pretty much unknown characters in the series, in fact we haven't really got to know them at all, sure we don't even know their first names.... I just hope thats not a sign that they are disposable characters....

The consequences this would have on Hermione would not only open her eyes, but it would devastate her. I can see her blaming herself for being a witch.... 'If I wasn't a witch, this never would have happened', you know how her logical mind works! Could she ever recover from something like this? Or will it band our heroes closer together... & spur Harry on to accepting his destiny to fulfil the prophesy?



Peregrine - Jan 16, 2004 8:43 am (#69 of 2486)
This is interesting theory. I’ve never been too crazy about the way Lucius was eyeing the Grangers either. If the theory that Lily’s parents were somehow killed by DEs or because of Lily’s relationship with the Order, etc., it would make for a good parallel with Hermione—history repeating itself and all that.

And yes, I think it was Sirius who told HRH about the Muggle killings in GoF...



Julia. - Jan 16, 2004 12:05 pm (#70 of 2486)
Here's the reference Fawkes.

"...The Ministry of Magic's in disarray, they don't know what to do, they're tryint to keep everything hidden from the Muggles, but meanwhile, Muggles are dying too. Terror everywhere...panic...confusion...that's how it used to be." (GoF ch. 27, pg. 457 UK)

I also think it's interesting to note that Hermione was welcomed by the Weasleys before her own parents, but that's something for the 'ship thread.



Rich - Jan 18, 2004 3:07 am (#71 of 2486)
Edited by S.E. Jones Jan 20, 2004 8:59 am
It was mentioned that Hermione will or is starting to drift away from her muggle parents and spend more time in the WW. Do you think that this is the same kind of thing that could've happened to Lily Potter? As she started to realise who she was, and she got involved with James and became close friends with the likes of DD she drifted away from her family.

We don't know how Lily's parents reacted to it, but we know Petunia kind of resents her for being a witch (and maybe also for slowly growing apart). Back on topic, do you think it's possible that Hermione's parent will become jealous of Harry and the Weasleys?

...But for all we know Hermione writes to her parents every night.

->Just correcting a typo. For questions, email me at [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]<- S.E. Jones



popkin - Jan 18, 2004 11:49 am (#72 of 2486)
I don't think that Hermione's parents are going to play a significant role in the books - they don't even have names. JKR has said that they're boring. "They're dentists." I got the definite impression that we would never be visiting the Granger home - not when we could go somewhere more interesting in the magical world.



Gina R Snape - Jan 18, 2004 7:53 pm (#73 of 2486)
I disagree with the statement that Hermione has been exempt from real problems. In CoS she was petrified by the basilisk for months. That can't have been pleasant.

I do, however, see her suffering more in the future. I doubt we'll get to know the Grangers, but that doesn't exclude them from being killed off in my opinion.



popkin - Jan 18, 2004 9:05 pm (#74 of 2486)
That's true, Gina. Hermione's parents (or a parent) could be killed off without us getting to know them. That would be a milder way to present a significant death (as in significant to a main character) without it being overly devastating to the readers. That seems like a definite possibility.



Fawkes Forever - Jan 19, 2004 4:03 am (#75 of 2486)
That's exactly what I was trying to say Popkin. I'm now worried for the safety of the Grangers....



Czarina - Jan 19, 2004 5:54 am (#76 of 2486)
I think the very fact that the Grangers DON'T have first names is a clue that they are possible Voldemort victims. Their deaths would be a significant plot event for the characters, but maybe not for us readers.

Back on topic (somewhat), would losing her parents shake Hermione off her "I have to do my homework and get good grades at all costs" pedestal? Either that or the opposite; any significant change in Hermione's character would be welcome to the story.



timrew - Jan 19, 2004 1:34 pm (#77 of 2486)
It's like the two crew members who beamed down with the Star Trek team. You never knew their names, you'd never seen them before; and you could safely say, 'They'll be dead in five minutes!'



Madame Librarian - Jan 19, 2004 2:38 pm (#78 of 2486)
Yes, tim, and the guy in "Galaxy Quest" who was not a featured name in the cast kept telling everyone that he, was gonna die 'cuz he fit the profile of the expendable crewman.

Ciao. Barb



popkin - Jan 19, 2004 2:51 pm (#79 of 2486)
Crewman Number 6. Sorry to stray off topic, but I must say that that is my favorite movie!



Cliff Hamaker - Jan 19, 2004 5:27 pm (#80 of 2486)
I dunno. I don't think Hermione's parents will be killed. I just don't see why a Death Eater or Voldy would do that. To get at Harry?



Gina R Snape - Jan 19, 2004 5:53 pm (#81 of 2486)
Aside from the fact that they are muggles who produced an extremely bright and accomplished witch, Lucius has met them and has threatened them in CoS.

Hermione puts herself and her parents in danger just by being friends with Harry. That doesn't mean she shouldn't be friends with him. Just that the Death Eaters will see Hermione as an enemy and a target for 2 reasons. Her parents being killed would hurt her. That's reason enough. But it all depends upon what is the agenda of the DEs. It seems to me that Voldemort wanted power and glory and all that during his first reign. Now he seems mostly intent upon getting Harry.



Czarina - Jan 19, 2004 6:37 pm (#82 of 2486)
Hermione has remained a calm, collected ally for Harry. She advises him and helps him. If her parents were killed, she would be distraught and maybe lose that sense of mental cohesiveness that she has. Harry relies on Hermione, who was also the brains behind the DA. Voldemort (or more likely Lucius Malfoy, acting on info from Draco and Kreacher) would want to strip Hogwarts -- particularly Harry, of course -- of the brilliant Hermione. Killing her parents might do just that, playing into Voldemort's hands.

Of course, I think that losing her parents would make Hermione all the MORE determined (maybe after recovering from shock, though) to defeat Voldemort at all costs.



Devika - Jan 20, 2004 2:51 am (#83 of 2486)
Muggle deaths are mentioned so frequently in relation to Voldemort's rise to power. We just have to be seeing some. That said, Hermione's parents seem to be the closest muggles we are acquainted with (I'm talking 3rd person - excluding the Durlseys). Maybe if Hermione faces something so grim it will bring about a major change in her. But I think if this does happen, it'll be one parent not both. No real reason except that it will be really unfair.



Czarina - Jan 20, 2004 6:26 am (#84 of 2486)
Back in Book 1, before any inkling of a second war came up, Hermione says "You could get us all killed, or worse -- EXPELLED!" or something to that effect. (sob! missing books to check) So far in the story, that has been her outlook. She hasn't experienced any deaths that have affected her deeply. She is slowly changing (she did organise the DA) but I don't know if she really grasps the severity of the situation. Something must happen in the next book or two to get her to "sort out her priorities," as put so eloquently by Rowling.



freshwater - Jan 20, 2004 1:05 pm (#85 of 2486)
Czarina, I mostly agree with you, but I do think that Hermione has been increasingly taking the LV situation seriously: 1) she began subscribing to The Daily Prophet because "it's good to know what your enemies are saying"; 2) she understood the impact of a reporter like Rita Skeeter, and took her out singlehandedly; 3)she listened to Umbridge's speech at the beginning of book 5 and realized that she wasn't just a tedious, nasty woman, but was part of a larger plan to exert MoM influence at Hogwarts; 4) although everything she heard about Harry and occlumency came to her second-hand, she took it more seriously than he did and nagged him to continue/resume it.

Although it would be very sad to see Hermione's parents killed, it would leave her in a position which might awaken the protective-caretaking part of Ron's nature and open his eyes to his own feelings for her. Perhaps Hermione's spending so much time with the Weasley family has been to reassure us that she will have a loving family to care for her if the worst happens.



Rich - Jan 20, 2004 7:26 pm (#86 of 2486)
People have been hoping for a change in Hermione's character, but to me this change is well under way. Since the end of PoA I think she has started to realise that standing up for what you believe in is more important than achieving good grades.

In PS/SS and maybe even CoS Hermione does have a preoccupation with achieving good grades and she still does, which is fine, but she seems to hold it above all else (including death), which has been mentioned.

But it's about now, after CoS that she changes. She used the Time Turner to help free Buckbeak and Sirius who were both innocent, she did what she thought was right, not what she thought was the somewhat sensible thing to do (which would have been to not break the rules and to let them both die).

In GoF she takes part in helping Harry practice for the challenges (correct me if I'm wrong, but the participants weren't allowed help, were they?). She also helps with Harry's rendezvous' with Sirius and with Harry and Ron she goes to meet him in the cave near Hogsmeade (I think?). We see the start of her political consience when she starts SPEW. Sticking up for the rights of others and doing what she believes is right.

In OotP she does something which cemented my liking of her, she stood up to Umbridge in a way for which she couldn't (rightly) be punished. Harry lost it a couple of times, he was stupid in the way he handled Umbridge (as Mc-G told him). But Hermione, she was calm and collected, she told the toad politely that she had done all the work to which Umbridge questioned her about a chapter. Hermione answered correctly and threw it back in her face by arguing with the author's opinions. Hermione won the argument using her brain. Something I am yet to see Harry or Ron do. In this year she also started the DA and helped Harry in the DoM.

Hermione is a very complex character, whether you believe it or not. She does still do everything she can to get good grades, but she does this because she realises that she can, she has the brains to do it, so why would she let anyone keep her back? She has more brains than Harry and Ron put together and she knows how to use them to her advantage. She uses them to do what is right. Harry and Ron try to do what is right the foolish way, they lose their heads and in some cases come to blows. Hermione will not, she has wit (though it doesn't always come through). Hermione is as brave and noble as Harry and Ron, she just has different ways of showing it.



Weeny Owl - Jan 20, 2004 9:08 pm (#87 of 2486)
rich:

I like your take on Hermione, and I will add that she was willing to help Harry after he saw Sirius at the Department of Mysteries, but she kept her head and wanted to see if he could be found first.

She does defend her friends, and I was so proud of her when she slapped Draco after his nasty comments about Hagrid in PoA. She took on one of the nastiest specimens of studenthood at Hogwarts and he backed off.

I don't want her parents to die, but if something happened to one or both of them, I think we've seen that Hermione has the strength to find a way of avenging something like that without betraying her cool logic.

She may not be predestined to defeat Voldie, but I think she could give the Death Eaters a run for their money.



Flame Alligator - Jan 21, 2004 4:26 am (#88 of 2486)
rich, Wasn't it Dumbledore's idea to use the Time Turner to save Sirius and Buckbeak? Not to take anything away for Hermione as I complete agree with you.



Lynn Allen - Jan 21, 2004 7:11 am (#89 of 2486)
I marvel that Hermione was given unrestricted access to the Time Turner, and wonder what that action says about Hermione and Professors McGonagall and Dumbledore? Does that act suggest Hermione is not really a child at all or that the two Hogwarts faculty were criminally negligent? We were told in Book 5 that "Time" is one of the Mysteries studied in the Ministry of Magic's Department of Mysteries, and that significant damage to the timeline had previously been done by adult wizards. Yet Hermione, while a 3rd year Hogwarts student, was turned loose with a Time-Turner and trusted to use it responsibly. It just seems terribly presumptious and dangerous for Profs. McGonagall and Dumbledore to provide such a powerful artifact to a 13-year-old child simply to facilitate her schoolwork. Despite Hermione's obvious intelligence, it took excellent judgment and discretion to prevent catastrophic contamination of the timeline. Hermione had to repeatedly curb fellow 3rd-year student Harry's impulsiveness while using the Time-Turner in PA Chapter 21. How could McGonagall and Dumbledore know she would not also have been overwhelmed by the night's events and make the situation even worse by introducing time paradoxes? Why were they willing to take such an astounding risk when events were already disastrous? Are these examples of desperation, or of negligence and poor judgment or do McGonagall and Dumbledore know Hermione is far more than the 13-year-old child she is presumed to be? And what would that be, anyway? Lynn Allen



popkin - Jan 21, 2004 8:36 am (#90 of 2486)
I suspect that Dumbledore had already seen that Hermione and Harry had accomplished their task, so he knew he wasn't taking a risk - just as Harry knew he could defeat the Dementors because he had already done it. It's circular logic, but still logical somehow.

Also, the DOM had to have agreed to Hermione receiving the time turner to aid in her school work, as it was registered with them.



Gina R Snape - Jan 21, 2004 11:45 am (#91 of 2486)
I'm not sure McGonagall and Dumbledore would have allowed it for just anyone. But they know Hermione very well. She is ultimately trustworthy, and they knew that.

What's interesting is that the MoM knew she had the time turner. Yet, Fudge did not make any connexion to it with Sirius Black's and Buckbeak's escape, and Snape clearly didn't know she had it. So, my guess is the rest of the staff were not aware either. I can't imagine, though, that they wouldn't know she was double-booked for classes. How could that have not come up in the staff room during faculty meetings?



Peregrine - Jan 21, 2004 12:11 pm (#92 of 2486)
Well at the time Snape wasn't really his normal collected self. He was insistant on blaming Harry for Sirius' escape and in his fury he may have overlooked Hermione. Or Snape really didn't know about the time turner, nor did he care about Hermione's schedule (the other teachers may have asked Dumbldore how she was getting to class).



Cliff Hamaker - Jan 21, 2004 2:49 pm (#93 of 2486)
Gina, you're assuming that Fudge would know about the Time Turner. However, with the beauties of bureacracy is that Fudge could very well live the rest of his life not knowing that Hermione was EVER in possesion of a Time Turner. Technically, it is the Dept. of Mysteries, well, department to deal with the issuing, as Harry saw an entire shelf of them, I belive, in the Battle at the Ministry. Besides, if the memo did have to go by Fudge for his approval, I think that he was too busy thinking about how much money Lucius was going to donate that month to bother actually READING it. Greedy little man....



Lynn Allen - Jan 21, 2004 2:56 pm (#94 of 2486)
It may say more about me than about McGonagall and Dumbledore but I would never allow a 13-year-old access to such a powerful device, even Hermione. That is why I voiced suspicion she may be more than she appears. (What that might be is a question I can't answer). Sorry but I don't understand what popkin and Gina Snape said, so please correct me if I'm misinterpreting. You are suggesting that the fact the "now" isn't a disaster makes using the Time-Turner a safer proposition? But one critical deviation (like picking up the invisibility cloak to prevent Prof. Snape from taking it) could cause disaster, as Dumbledore reminded them: "If all goes well, you will be able to save more than one innocent life tonight. But remember this, both of you: you must not be seen. Miss Granger, you know the law--you know what is at stake...You--must--not--be--seen!" PA pg. 393. Harry was ready to change history within minutes, and Hermione had to remind him: "We're breaking one of the most important wizarding laws! Nobody's supposed to change time, nobody!...Professor McGonagall told me what awful things have happened when wizards have meddled with time ..." PA pp.398-399. One change could alter the timeline, eliminating what they started with and replacing it with something even worse. Time travel...it bends my mind!



Madame Librarian - Jan 21, 2004 3:39 pm (#95 of 2486)
I'm not going to even try to explain the rationale DD and McG might have had in allowing the Time Turner to be used by a 13-yr. old, but on the issue of the MoM knowing about it, I will offer this: is it possible that McG requested it for herself without mentioning that she was going to lend it to Hermione? Combine that with the point about the MoM being a somewhat chaotic bureacracy, and I don't think anyone thought twice about it.

As far as Hermione's other teachers being aware of her doubled up schedule, again I will offer the explanation that something like this can happen just under the "radar" of the school officials because it, too, is a bureacracy in many ways. It seems that your Head of House is the one who really knows what you are up to academically, and no one else would focus on a student's particular schedule unless some really weird things happen. Be honest, don't you remember pulling all kinds of similar stunts in high school? OK, we poor Muggles can't use magic to elude the notice of the staff, but we certainly had our tricks.

And, finally, I often think we think too much on certain issues. JKR probably never fretted about all the ramifications. She needed a plot device that moved the story where she needed it to go and she came up with a clever magical tool to use.

Ciao. Barb



timrew - Jan 21, 2004 3:47 pm (#96 of 2486)
That's exactly what I think, Barb. JKR is the author; she takes us where we need to go.



Ladybug220 - Jan 21, 2004 6:19 pm (#97 of 2486)
Barb, I agree with you but the ministry did know that it was for Hermione,

"Professor McGonagall made me swear I wouldn't tell anyone. She had to write all sorts of letters to the Ministry of Magic so I could have one. She had to tell them that I was a model student, and that I'd never, ever use it for anything except my studies...."

POA, US, pg 395-396



Madame Librarian - Jan 21, 2004 6:33 pm (#98 of 2486)
Uh, oh, my mistake. Knew I should have checked the book. Thanks, Ladybug for setting the record straight. Aside from that I think my point still stands.

Ciao. Barb

Edit--tim, that is just too creepy. If I were really nasty, I'd use that same line Snape uses about Hermione's teeth. Not much difference, or something to that effect. This polyjuice thing is getting a bit carried away (boy, do I have my "mom" voice on; I can get just as shriek-y at Molly).



Gina R Snape - Jan 21, 2004 8:15 pm (#99 of 2486)
Somehow, I don't think DD would have given Harry the time turner alone. But Hermione has a powerful reigning-in effect on Harry at some very important moments. I'm sure he was aware of that and was counting on it. He certainly reminded her not just as a shortcut for time, but also because he knew it was up to her to make sure they didn't do anything Dumbledore wouldn't want to have done.



Flame Alligator - Jan 22, 2004 7:02 am (#100 of 2486)
I do not underestimate Hermione just because she is a 13 year old. Dumbledore and McGonagal trust her. They probably assessed that she is responsible. If you are responsible, you can be trusted with a device such as the Time Turner no matter your age. She proves this beautifully with the reigning in of my dear, fly by the seat of your pants, Harry.

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Devika - Jan 22, 2004 7:52 am (#101 of 2486)
Gina,I think you hit the nail on the head. Hermione was there to keep a rein on Harry who has a tendency to get hot-headed in such situations. On the other hand Hermione's temprament is such that she takes a very measured approach, careful not to let anything go wrong. Also, it seems that JKR/DD would have chosen Hermione, instead of someone else like maybe Ron to accompany Harry, because if Harry failed to figure out DD's cryptic hints or mess with time, then there had better be a more intelligent person to accompany him. But I agree with Barb, that it was just a little device to propel the climax forward.



Lynn Allen - Jan 22, 2004 10:24 am (#102 of 2486)
Tim, I like the photo... Makes me wonder whether there actually are goblins! You WOULD tell us, wouldn't you?



Czarina - Jan 30, 2004 11:02 am (#103 of 2486)
Hermione is far more intelligent than her age. If she went to a muggle school, she would take higher level classes (in some subjects, at least) and probably, if she could afford it, special tutoring. There are a lot of exceptions made for such students, depending on the school and the district. In Hermione's case, the Time-Turner was a special privilege that she understands full well the implications of. McGonagall had to make a special case to the Ministry, just as a school might have to make a special case to the government if a student is to graduate early with fewer credits or overload certain credits, perhaps.



timrew - Jan 30, 2004 4:52 pm (#104 of 2486)
Lynn, I promise you I'm not a goblin. Okay, I might have been when I was on the Polyjuice - I don't know where that toenail came from!......but not anymore!

And to bring this discussion back on track, do you think the MOM (on the advice of Professor McGonagall) would entrust Hermione with a time turner again? Or has it served its purpose in POA?



Rich - Jan 30, 2004 7:26 pm (#105 of 2486)
I don't think they ould trust Mc-G with a Time Turner given her close alliance with DD, they'd be paranoid as to what she would want it for, even if it was for Hemrione. But if the attitude of the Ministry has changed then I suppose they might lend it to her again. But as you said Tim, I think it's served it's purpose.



popkin - Jan 31, 2004 3:39 pm (#106 of 2486)
I don't think the MOM is necessarily aware of what goes on in the DOM. If the DOM authorized someone to be given a time-turner, I don't think they'd share that information with another department or even with the head of the MOM (Fudge).



loony - Feb 1, 2004 1:48 am (#107 of 2486)
About the Time Turner and why Mc-G thought it was wise to give it to Hermione... I think it was actually DD who was so sure that Hermy will do just the right thing with it - for better understanding of what I´m talking about read :

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there is a discussion about it on "Ron Weasley".



Rod Beecham - Feb 28, 2004 2:42 am (#108 of 2486)
Hi, everyone! I'm new to the Forum, and I haven't read all prior material, yet (there's an awful lot of it!), so what I'm about to say may well have been discussed already. Please be patient with me.

The initial posts about Hermione seemed to be faintly patronising in tone. There was a lot of talk about her "growing up", as if she is or was in some way deficient in maturity by comparison with Harry and Ron. I think the complete opposite is true. At the climax of the PS she says: " Books! And cleverness! There are more important things - friendship and bravery and - oh Harry - be careful!"

I find that speech very impressive. It demonstrates a self-awareness and a capacity for constructive self-reflection far in advance of anything shown by Harry himself (whose trademark is to say "Fine" when anyone asks how he is, even though he usually isn't fine at all). Hermione is clever, and she is a swot, but she is also extremely perceptive about human behaviour. She points out to the uncomprehending Harry in GoF that Ron is jealous of him, she feels instinctively that Harry is rushing into a trap at the Department of Mysteries ("don't you think you've got a bit of a - a - saving-people thing?"), and she shows infinitely more emotional maturity about romantic partnership in GoF than the appalling (and hilariously well-observed) Harry and Ron.

Her standing up to Harry about his vision of Sirius' torture in OoP is every bit as brave as Neville's equivalent "standing up to his friends" in PS, especially as she cares deeply for Harry and knows the intensity of his anger.

That she chose Crookshanks, the cat with infallible instincts about who is trustworthy and who is not, is symbolic.

You may have deduced from the above that I am a Hermione fan. I am! She provides a lot of humour in the stories with her bookishness, and is a very useful authorial device, as she can explain most things plausibly by saying she read about them, but she's also a brave, generous, insightful and admirable person. Go Hermione!



Czarina - Feb 28, 2004 7:41 am (#109 of 2486)
Just a question -- what's a swot, exactly?

Don't forget that it was Hermione who was able to analyze and understand Cho's reactions with Harry in OoP. She is much more knowledgeable about such things than Harry or Ron -- both of whom are amazed at the range of emotions that Hermione mentions.



Dr Filibuster - Feb 28, 2004 1:56 pm (#110 of 2486)
swot;

verb: work hard, especially at books.

noun: person who works hard, especially at learning: hard work or study.

swot up;

study hurriedly or for particular occasion.

Definitions courtesy of my trusty Little Oxford Dictionary.

Are you in the USA? What word do you use instead?



Madame Librarian - Feb 28, 2004 2:54 pm (#111 of 2486)
I'm not sure we have quite the parallel as a slang term here in the US. I can't think of anything except bookworm, which is not exactly the same thing; egghead, which is old (1950s) slang for an intellectual.

To learn stuff in a hurry in order to be ready for an exam is to cram. To study in general is to hit the books.

In the US Hermione would definitely be a bookworm. When she quoted stuff she learned, she'd be dubbed an egghead, and instead of socializing in the common room, she'd say she had to go hit the books. She'd chastise Ron and Harry for goofing off by telling them they'll really have to cram to get their test prep done.

Anybody else have some terms that we use in the US?

Ciao. Barb



SarcasticGinny - Feb 28, 2004 3:16 pm (#112 of 2486)
Kids at the school I went to would call her bookworm or book nerd and kiss-up (since she always has her hand raised). I probably would have hung out with her. :-)



Czarina - Feb 28, 2004 4:13 pm (#113 of 2486)
I'm Canadian, actually.

other terms applicable to Hermione: brown-nose, teacher's pet, geek, perfectionist...



Dr Filibuster - Feb 28, 2004 4:22 pm (#114 of 2486)
Sorry I forgot your nationality Czarina. I guessed the correct continent though.

All the alternative swot words offered for Hermione are in common use in Britain too.



MrsGump - Mar 1, 2004 3:01 pm (#115 of 2486)
I was a bit Hermione-ish, and everyone's favorite was "brain".

Oh, nerd or goody-goody would get attached sometimes, but brain was the big one.



nmnjr - Mar 3, 2004 8:03 pm (#116 of 2486)
"Doogie Howser" was a popular one when I was in jr. high, after the character on the TV show of the same name. Doogie was a teenage genius and medical doctor.



Chris. - Mar 4, 2004 10:39 am (#117 of 2486)
Just to say about Hermione's middle name, Jane that JKR revealed on the Live Chat held this morning.

It's not very important but could be named after Charlotte Bronte's Jane Eyre or Jane Austen, author of Sense and Sensibility and Pride and Prejudice who I believe is a favourite of JKR.

I've never read Jane Eyre so could someone please either tell me what happens in the book or direct me to a site where it would so there would be no 'Off topic' subjects on the thread.





Rod Beecham - Mar 4, 2004 1:07 pm (#118 of 2486)
Dear Kingsley,

I can't possibly tell you what happens in "Jane Eyre": that would ruin a wonderful book!

I can say, however, that Jane herself is a proud, intelligent woman, with a strong moral compass.



Dr Filibuster - Mar 4, 2004 1:53 pm (#119 of 2486)
OOh, "Jane" after Jane Austin. I like your thinking Kingsley.



Madame Librarian - Mar 4, 2004 2:04 pm (#120 of 2486)
Jane Eyre was a governess who worked for a mysterious, brooding nobleman. She was charged with teaching his young ward. As with the HP books Bronte scatters clues and hints about the true nature of what's going on. Like Harry Jane was an orphan, raised for while by a cruel aunt and uncle. When uncle dies, she's sent off to an orphanage/boarding school that lost as many students (all girls training to be governesses) to illness and despair as they did to graduation. The pathos of her situation is not unlike Harry's. In the meantime, the reader gets to enjoy a combined love story and mystery story with a touch of the Gothic about it. There, I didn't give too much away, did I?

Ciao. Barb



Chris. - Mar 4, 2004 2:33 pm (#121 of 2486)
Thanks Madame Librarian



SarcasticGinny - Mar 4, 2004 8:07 pm (#122 of 2486)
Does anyone else think that the addition of "Jane" makes Hermione Jane Granger a gorgeous name? I thought it was pretty ordinary before I found out the middle name, but all together, it sounds lovely.



Madame Librarian - Mar 4, 2004 8:14 pm (#123 of 2486)
It does have a nice rhythm to it. Much nicer than Ronald Bilius Weasley. Bilius??

Ciao. Barb



mollis - Mar 4, 2004 8:36 pm (#124 of 2486)
Don't forget poor Ginny Molly Weaseley. Poor thing. Hermione got off good!



Psychedelic Enchantress - Mar 5, 2004 6:07 am (#125 of 2486)
Which makes me wonder why it's also Umbridge's middle name... She is not a gorgeous character, nor noticeably like Jane Eyre (my sister's name, incidentally... how embarrassing!)



Czarina - Mar 5, 2004 8:12 am (#126 of 2486)
Jane makes a good middle name to counter a longer first name (ie. Hermione, Dolores). I agree -- "Hermione Jane" has a nice ring to it. Actually, "Ginny Molly Weasley" isn't so bad -- it rhymes perfectly and is easy to remember.

Hey -- now Ron/Hermione and Harry/Ginny shippers can craft fan-fiction wedding announcements! :-)



Cherrie - Mar 13, 2004 12:36 pm (#127 of 2486)
The funny thing is, I actually had it set in my brain that Elizabeth was a cute middle name for Hermione. Now I see it is a tad too formal. :-D Maybe too much Pirates of the Caribbean, eh?

Yes, Poor Ginny -- not that her mum is a bad person! Jane is a sweet middle name for Hermione. Because Jane Austen is mentioned by JKR in so many interviews, and her work referred to as "un-putdownable", I would agree that Hermione was named after Jane Austen...at least subconciously!!

-Cher



Catherine - Mar 23, 2004 9:25 am (#128 of 2486)
Devika seems to wonder if Hermione could have had wizarding parents, and so do I! I mentioned it recently in posts in the "Harry's Ancestry" thread. Actually, I started to talk about Hermione's ancestry there as a tangent and decided to pop over here to talk about it so I wouldn't ruin that other thread. It might be interesting for anyone to look at those posts to see my speculations on "what else doesn't Harry know" and "did Harry have other family members who perished (or were thought to have died) the night Voldemort attacked."

Rowling has never actually denied that Harry and Hermione are siblings. She makes the coy "Star Wars" comment, but never really confirms anything. Her latest chat mentioned a possible sister for Hermione, but that was in context of the Grangers. The kids' names are just too similar! Harry James Potter; Hermione Jane Granger. I note that Harry's middle name is from his father. Lily's maiden name, "Evans" is interesting when you note that "Evan" is a form of the name "John," and "Jane" is the feminine version of John. Maybe just a coincidence. But names are important in Rowling's universe. Lupin's middle name is John, too, but that doesn't fit as neatly in my wild speculations, so I'm ignoring it for now.

I agree that Hermione being a "mudblood" is important to the moral compass of the novels. Does it ruin anything for her to have wizarding parents? As I mentioned in the Harry's Ancestry post, there is a strong literary tradition of "lost" royal children whose nobility is revealed in the end--like Sleeping Beauty, for example. The peasant is revealed as a princess at age 16! Certainly Harry went from being "just Harry" to "The Boy Who Lived!" We've already seen one child sent to live with muggles. Why not another?

Even if one disagrees that Hermione is Harry's sister, I do wonder if she could have wizarding parents. There is a strong theme in the novels of coming to terms with one's identity: Hagrid and his giantess mother; Harry and his father as teenage jerk; Hermione and non-magic parents. It may be as simple as that. But I have this niggling doubt. It was raised when the LeStranges came into the picture. The name suggests a "French connection," and Hermione has vacationed in France, and seems to know quite a bit about it--remember when Hagrid returned in OotP and she started to ask him, "Did you see..." before she got cut off. I mention this because it would be interesting to see a child coming to terms with having Dark or evil wizard parents. Also, it would make sense for a child who had parents in Azkaban to be raised by foster parents of sorts.

Also, while I know this is a leap on the order of the Grand Canyon, I have always wondered if there could be a connection between Sirius and Hermione. The Black family tapestry and the Wizarding Genealogy book have always interested me. No child of Sirius's would show up on the tapestry since he'd been blasted off, but that doesn't mean he never had any. Or that he knows that Harry had other relatives who died that Halloween night. I guess I'm still waiting to see what's in the genealogy book.

My final musing involves Hermione's boggart, and why it was not revealed until the end of PoA. I have wondered if Lupin had an ulterior motive for not allowing Hermione to battle the boggart in class, just as he did with Harry. It made me wonder if Lupin knows something about Hermione that we don't know--if he's worried about the form her boggart will take, just as he is about Harry's boggart. Of course, the most sensible answer is that he was trying to not single Harry out, and it provided good comic relief at the end of the novel.

Forgive this most off the wall post, but this keeps my mind occupied while I wait for the next book...and the movie...Sigh.



Rich - Mar 24, 2004 3:08 am (#129 of 2486)
You've made some really good points Catherine. There's a couple of things I want to add.

I don't want Hermione to be born of wizard parents. As you mentioned, Hermione having muggle parents and being the most talented pupil in her year - and the school before long - is an important aspect of the books. It shows that the "purity" of one's blood means nothing. For JKR to turn around and say, "No, this and that happened in the past and Hermione is really a "pure blood" witch," I think it would destroy one of the main themes that JKR has been developing since, I suppose, CoS.

But on the other hand it would be great - plot wise, I mean - to find out that Hermione was born of evil wizarding parents. It would raise more issues for Hermione about coming to terms with her identity if she had evil parents than having muggle parents, I think so anyway.

Hermione isn't very close to her parents from what we see, but keep in mind we don't see much concerning her relationship with her parents. Though all the things you've mentioned Catherine would be great for the story I can't really see them happening this late in the series. Afterall there's only two books to go...

...Besides, I'm still holding out for Hermione to be the first muggle-born Minister of Magic (that we know of).



Kirsti Bane - Mar 25, 2004 8:36 am (#130 of 2486)
thought the basilisk only petrified muggleborns - if she was a pure/halfblood she wouldn't have been attacked.



Mad Madame Mim - Mar 25, 2004 9:54 am (#131 of 2486)
Well the basilisk did petrify Mrs. Norris and Nearly Headless Nick. And Harry was trying very hard not to see the Basilisk's eyes, Maybe that's another reason why Fawkes blinded it.

"..all who are fixed with the beam of its eye shall suffer instant death." (CoS, 290, US)

Remember no one looked directly into its eyes except for Myrtle.



Rod Beecham - Mar 25, 2004 2:52 pm (#132 of 2486)
I think the point is that the basilisk's stare is fatal to anyone. The Heir of Slytherin attempts to control it to kill only those of "impure" blood, but the basilisk itself is impartially fatal to "purebloods" and "mudbloods" alike.



Czarina - Mar 25, 2004 6:53 pm (#133 of 2486)
The basilisk might not like to eat purebloods, but it kills whoever it looks at in the eyes regardless.

Going back to Hermione, I do wonder if Tom Riddle intentionally set the snake upon her. She was in the library, though, where potentially a lot of students could be. I didn't think Riddle would want the basilisk to be seen by a lot of witnesses. It was generally believed that the monster was Aragog and the culprit fifty years earlier had been poor Hagrid. If word got out that it was really a basilisk...? Anyhow, the fact that no one had yet seen the creature (without being petrified, of course) added to its mystery, and if there were lots of students in the library, chances would be pretty good that the basilisk might kill a pureblood. But if the target had since switched to Harry, why send the basilisk to the library at all?

In the film, Hermione was attacked right before a Quidditch game. That meant that the library would be practically deserted. Surely a sensible Hermione would NOT go to the library then? But in the book, I can't remember if there is a game or not. Was there?

The fact that Hermione enlisted Penelope to help her seems to indicate that there would be no one else in the library, as she needed special permission. From a mere prefect? If the school was considered to be in danger, EVERYone else was out playing Quidditch, why would she get permission from a prefect? Surely Penelope, a RAVENCLAW, would not be daft enough to allow Hermione into a deserted library under such circumstances. Hermione should have perhaps asked a teacher to accompany her?

So what made Hermione, the smartest witch in her year but on her guard because she is a "mudblood", decide to go to the library when it was deserted (and a monster was loose) with only a prefect to accompany her? If the diary was forcing Ginny to write in it, was there some dark force pulling Hermione to be vulnerable in the library? Or did Ginny have anything to do with it?

I just think it is pretty odd that such a smart girl like Hermione did such a stupid thing. It was only the library and I doubt the book was restricted. She could have got the book when there were people in the library.



Mrs. Sirius - Mar 25, 2004 10:32 pm (#134 of 2486)
I don't know if Hermione "enlisted" Penelope to help her so much as she was just trying to warn Penelope who happened to be in the library at the time, after she (Hermione) discovered that the monster was a Basilik.

And I think that Hermione was in a conversation with Harry and Ron she she suddenly remembered something she had previously read and ran off saying she had to go check it at the library.



The giant squid - Mar 25, 2004 11:24 pm (#135 of 2486)
You're correct, Mrs. S. I just finished re-reading CoS last night, and Hermione literally (no pun intended...well, maybe a little) jumps up in the middle of a conversation with H & R and runs off.

Czarina, Hermione may be the smartest student at Hogwarts, but she's not necessarily the wisest. She's let her quest for knowledge lead her into bad situations at other times as well.

--Mike



OkieAngel - Mar 26, 2004 12:17 am (#136 of 2486)
Wow, it has been ages since I've visited this thread, I can't believe how much it's grown, there's so many new (and not-so-new)points that I'd like to discuss further. So, here goes:

I posted ages ago that I felt that there was an attack in the Granger's near future coming from the DE's, specifically from Malfoy. Back when I posted my thoughts, it wasn't a very popular theory so I let it die, but I've always felt that ever since the comments made by Lucius in Diagon Alley, the Grangers are in danger. Now that the theory has become popular, I see that there are several "signs" pointing to the fact that they could be seriously harmed or killed. I agree with the thought that our beloved Hermy is due some personal tragedy. She seems to really take her muggle dentist parents for granted, as all teens do at some point, but she appears to be really pulling away from them. Is this a ploy by JKR to get us ready for them not to be there? Also, the comment she made to Harry about wishing she could see the thestrals really struck a chord, and made my plot twist antannae start tingling...

As for Hermy and Harry being siblings, well, to me it's just to Luke and Leia, but who knows how things really work in the Rowling universe??

Hermione having evil wizard parents. Have to say that that theory has to rank up there with the Lupin is James thread, but I'm jonesing for anything Potter, so I'll go along for arguments sake. It would definitely be an awesome plot twist if say the Grangers are killed off as a way to undermine Hermione and our trio's power of three, then just as she's starting to deal with the loss of her parents, she finds out that she's really the daughter of the evil Bellatrix. Wow, that would give her some demons to wrassle with.

Lots of words for just a few of my thoughts




rambkowalczyk - Mar 26, 2004 8:51 am (#137 of 2486)
In the Chamber of Secrets Hermione deliberately went to the library because she had an inspiration about what was attacking the students and went to the library to verify it. (when in doubt go to the library) She was later going to rejoin Ron at the Quidditch game. She looked up the basilisk, ripped out the appropriate page (don't they have copy machines in the wizarding world?) but when she left the library, something made her cautious and she asked Penalope to take out her mirror to look around the corner.



Czarina - Mar 26, 2004 5:24 pm (#138 of 2486)
Why didn't she just drag Ron with her? They would have gotten into a fight in the library and missed the basilisk altogether. But then, Penelope would be dead.

Did she just find Penelope in the hall? That's an awful coincidence -- Hermione just HAPPENED to want a mirror and find someone else wandering the corridor with one? Or was Penelope accompanying her?I guess we'll never know, or need to know.

Thanks for finding the passage in CoS to tell me when Hermione went to the library. So she DID go right before a Quidditch game. Humph! Never thought I'd say this to my favourite character, but: Smart move, mudblood! (I mean it NICELY, of course!)



Neville Longbottom - Mar 26, 2004 6:14 pm (#139 of 2486)

Did she just find Penelope in the hall? That's an awful coincidence


I wouldn't say it was that much of a coincidence. We don't know very much about Penny, but considering that she is/was Percy's girlfriend, a prefect and a Ravenclaw, I can see her being someone, who is rather in the library than at a Quidditch-match, especially because the match was Gryyfindor - Hufflepuff, therefore Penny's house wasn't involved. I think Justin seeing the Basilisk through Nick was far more of a coincidence. The reason is probably that JKR didn't want a death at that point in the series, or maybe she didn't want Ginny to be responsible for a student's death. And Penny was probably involved to lay a red herring towards Percy, because we know he was following her to the dungeons.



Czarina - Mar 27, 2004 8:33 am (#140 of 2486)
Red herring? I pretty much figured that if a sixteen-year-old Gryffindor boy is hanging around the dungeons near a similarly-aged Ravenclaw girl, they must be looking for a little privacy! :-)



Catherine - Apr 2, 2004 8:39 am (#141 of 2486)
I was reflecting on Hermione's vulnerability (something Rowling mentioned in an old interview).

The posts here have covered the threats she may receive either directly or indirectly due "mudblood" status. But I was thinking that Rowling has shown us more than that.

I was thinking that, next to Harry, Hermione has been in more danger than the other students. Certainly Neville and Ron have had their share of misfortunes, but I am talking about being singled out for attacks. I began to wonder about Quirrell's troll attack in SS. Yes, I know it was a diversionary tactic, but it is interesting that the first student it encounters is a brilliant mudblood. Also, she was not yet Harry's good friend, so she was not targeted for this reason.

Snape is ruder to her than he is to any other girl we have met so far. This also gives her something in common with Harry. She is the only other student besides Harry to be singled out by Rita Skeeter for a mean-spirited article.

She is probably second only to Harry in the number and seriousness of physical injuries she has sustained, although Ron has suffered, too. The last injury received at the Ministry in OotP could have killed her; Harry was afraid that she was dead.

I don't know if Rowling is building up to Hermione's death, or to show that Hermione (since Hermione is "heroine" without the "m") is heroic in her own right.

Thoughts?



DJ Evans - Apr 2, 2004 12:11 pm (#142 of 2486)
And Catherine Allen, don't forget about Hermione's problem with the Polyjuice Potion that she had, then that spell someone put on her (I think) where her teeth grew huge, AND she was one of the victum's of the Basilisk. Those are just 3 that popped into my head after reading your post. Gosh, when you sit back and think about it, she has been through a bunch, hasn't she? But I think with each episode it just makes her a stronger person (as it does with Harry)and plus, to me, it makes her have more human qualities--instead of just being known for a "brain"!! If that makes sense! Good thoughts there that you had!!



Molly Weasly Wannabe - Apr 2, 2004 2:41 pm (#143 of 2486)
I think Snape is reminded of Lily Evans when he sees Hermonie. That they both were/are brillant witches, and it just ticked him off that these two girls were so powerful and not originally from the wizarding world. I think his dislike towards Hermonie (and Lily) is that they are Mudbloods who know more than he does.



Catherine - Apr 2, 2004 2:46 pm (#144 of 2486)
Molly Weasley Wannabe,

I think you are right about Snape being reminded of Hermione. In fact, in an earlier post in this thread I did my best to link Lily and Hermione (yes, even though it ruins the "Hermione as mudblood" theme).

I think there's something there.



Rod Beecham - Apr 3, 2004 12:55 am (#145 of 2486)
It struck me forcibly the other day that the key character to die soon may well be Hermione. She's been threatened often enough, and her murder would make Voldemort's evil real to Harry and to us in a way the death of no other character could.



Neville Longbottom - Apr 3, 2004 7:18 am (#146 of 2486)
I think there's no way that Ron or Hermione will die before the end of book 7. They are to important. It's nearly as killing off Harry himself. Especially because Hermione is a caricature of JKR, I doubt JKR would kill her off.



Catherine - Apr 3, 2004 9:17 am (#147 of 2486)
Well, I think JKR has proven that she'll kill a character no matter how much she loves him.

I agree with Neville that Hermione wouldn't die, at least yet, because her character advances the plot; Harry really needs her, and as the reader WE need her to tell us things that Harry doesn't know.



Norbert not a common welsh green - Apr 4, 2004 1:53 pm (#148 of 2486)
I belive that if any of Harrys friends die it will be Ron not Hermione as he is the closed to Harry. This would have a much biger impact on him. He is more upset about losing Ron as a Friend in GoF then when he has an arguement with Hermione in PoA



Catherine - Apr 4, 2004 2:13 pm (#149 of 2486)
I think that Harry has a history of taking things for granted. He's never really been faced with losing Hermione until the fight at the Ministry, and he was more upset there than he seemed during the second task of GoF when rescuing Ron. In fact, Hermione and Cho's presence caused him to delay his return to the surface.



HP Fan - Apr 4, 2004 3:30 pm (#150 of 2486)
I'd never really noticed how many scrapes 'our Hermione' has got into before now. But thinking about it - she has been through a lot. I hope that those of you who think it could be to point to her early death are wrong! I can see bits of me in Hermione after Harry she's the character I really can relate to.

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alexa - Apr 5, 2004 12:56 am (#151 of 2486)
Well, Harry panicked when he thought Hermione died in the battle in the Department of Mystery right? He was so relieved when Neville said he felt a pulse. If either Ron or Hermione died, Harry will be equally devastated.

I almost thought Hermione died in the scene and nearly shouted out, not Hermione, please!



Padfoot - Apr 5, 2004 12:34 pm (#152 of 2486)
I don't think JKR would be so cruel to kill Hermione. Then again, she did kill off Sirius. But he wasn't a major character like Harry, Ron and Hermione. If any of them die, it will be at the end of book 7. But what a bummer of a way to end the series. She can't kill any of the trio. All of us fans would be up in arms over it.



Fawkes Forever - Apr 6, 2004 6:31 am (#153 of 2486)
Padfoot, I agree, I don't think I could handle that... it would make re-reading the series too sad. However, I keep thinking back to an old interview with JKR, I think it was 'Harry & Me' on BBC in the UK. Where she said :

Quote from Transcript on Mugglenet [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Death is the most important theme throughout all seven books. “More people are going to die. One death is going to be horrible to write. IT HAS TO BE.”

This interview was before OotP, so I'm thinking that the death she was talking about in this interview was Dear Old Sirius... so I keep hoping that because she said 'one death is going to be horrible to write', and we know how upset she was when she killed off Sirius. I doubt that she would be so flippant about killing off Ron or Hermione. If she where to kill off one of them, I think she would have said "well I've another couple of horrible deaths to come & they will be very difficult to write"

So here's hoping the Trio & the rest of our beloved characters will last out the series. *pretty please*

Hermiones vulnerability has always bothered me also, I did the same as Alexa when reading the Department of Mysteries chapter in OotP, & I have an awful niggling feeling that something is going to happen her parents... poor Hermy...



Chris. - Apr 6, 2004 8:55 am (#154 of 2486)
I posted this on the Caradoc Dearborn thread, and thought it should belong here as well.

From the Name Origins Page on [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Hermione - Means well born or stone. Feminine version of Hermes. In Greek Mythology, she was the daughter of Helen of Troy and King Menelaus of Sparta. Hermione is also a character in Shakespeare's A Winter's Tale. (Bold is mine)

Is there a connection between well born and Dearborn?



haymoni - Apr 8, 2004 6:31 am (#155 of 2486)
Question for canon specialists - did Hermione ever fix Harry's glasses in the books? I know Arthur fixed them in COS, but the movies show Hermione fixing them in both SS/PS and COS.

(My son had the word "example" in his spelling list and used: "For example," said Hermione, "Occulus Reparo!" - we were trying to find the spell in the books for the correct spelling of "occulus" but couldn't locate it.)



Denise P. - Apr 8, 2004 6:40 am (#156 of 2486)
Nope, movie magic. She did put a water repelling spell on them for Quidditch but I don't recall any repairs.

In PS/SS on the train: never even attempted a spell on the train although she says she practiced loads of them

In CoS: Arthur fixes Harry's glasses



haymoni - Apr 8, 2004 7:51 am (#157 of 2486)
That's what I thought - thanks!



Fawkes Forever - Apr 8, 2004 7:54 am (#158 of 2486)
Even though it looks impressive it always 'irks me in CoS, I find myself saying... Hermione wouldn't perform magic outside of school, she knows about the decree for underage Wizards...

Silly I know... but its always the little things!



Lagniappe - Apr 9, 2004 2:09 pm (#159 of 2486)
Fawkes, it irks me too. I want to yell, "Wait, a minute! She can't do that, it's not allowed outside of school!"



Rich - Apr 13, 2004 1:23 am (#160 of 2486)
In OotP HRH and a bunch of other DA members cast spells and hexes and stuff on Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle on the Hogwarts Express on the way back from Hogwarts. Maybe coming back from Hogwarts is still in the school year but on the way to Hogwarts isn't. Or the rule is open for interpretation.



haymoni - Apr 13, 2004 5:08 am (#161 of 2486)
There was some mention in one of the books that while on the return trip home on the Hogwarts Express the students took advantage of their last chance to do magic. I believe it involved a game of Exploding Snap with the twins.



The giant squid - Apr 13, 2004 11:02 pm (#162 of 2486)
Ginny also uses magic on the way to Hogwarts in OotP. She casts scourgify to clean up the mimbletonia muck (can't think of the exact name of it at the moment). My guess is that the Hogwarts Express is considered part of the school year, i.e. the term begins as soon as the Express pulls out of King's Cross and ends when it returns. I haven't seen it expressed as such (no pun intended) but that's how it always read to me.

--Mike



Doris Crockford - Apr 15, 2004 2:06 pm (#163 of 2486)
The 'mimbletonia muck' is 'stinksap'.

I don't really know any way to link 'well born' and 'Dearborn', Kingsley, since all we really know about Caradoc Dearborn is that, according to the Lexicon, he is a "Member of the original Order of the Phoenix; missing and presumed dead (OP9)." Unless you mean to suggest that Hermione will go missing or die(I hope she doesn't)? Although the Lex also says "JKR chose the name Hermione from a character in Shakespeare's play A Winter's Tale, although she says that the characters are not at all similar. She thought it made sense for a couple of professional dentists to name their only daughter something like that to show how clever they were. But she chose a very unusual name because she worried that, if there were a real child somewhere who was bright and had larger-than-usual front teeth that had the same name, she might get teased (NPC)", so there probably isn't some hidden meaning in the name Hermione.



Neville Longbottom - Apr 15, 2004 3:33 pm (#164 of 2486)
As an addition to Doris' post:

The Hermione from The Winter's Tale was turned to stone in the play and came to life again at the end, which is of course sort of similar to Hermione being petrified in CoS.



The giant squid - Apr 16, 2004 6:24 am (#165 of 2486)
The 'mimbletonia muck' is 'stinksap'

Thanks, Doris. Naturally, I remembered that 31 minutes after posting... Wink

--Mike



Kirsti Bane - Apr 21, 2004 8:10 am (#166 of 2486)
There is also a Hermione in mythology who caused a war because two men were in love with her.



SarcasticGinny - May 3, 2004 9:57 am (#167 of 2486)
In regards to Hermione using spells out of school, she did cast "Lumos" in the woods in GOF.



Hagsquid - May 3, 2004 10:58 am (#168 of 2486)
Edited by May 3, 2004 10:59 am
It's been argued that perhaps "Lumos" isn't a spell, but a built in command of the wands themselves. (Check Peeves and Wandless Magic thread.)

I noticed that it never mentions the Students of Durmstrang and Beauxbatons using Lumos. Maybe the command is exclusive to Olivanders.

In the CoS movie (not the book) she casts "Occulus Repero" in Diagon Ally. (In the book, Mr Weasley casts the spell.)



Prefect Marcus - May 3, 2004 10:59 am (#169 of 2486)
Hermione casting "Lumos" in the woods at the World Cup would not get her into trouble by any stretch of imagination. They were in a dangerous situation. People were panicing. They were surrounded by fellow wizards. The only muggles around for miles were up in the air above the Deatheaters. Besides, all the Ministry personal were concentrating on the riot. A little thing like under-age magic dealing with a simple "Lumos" spell is not going to be noticed.



Catherine - May 3, 2004 12:22 pm (#170 of 2486)
Ditto to what Prefect Marcus said, and also it highlights how Harry has been targeted unfairly by the Ministry, and how the Ministry doesn't apply the rules in an impartial way.



Robert Dierken - May 5, 2004 7:58 pm (#171 of 2486)
Actually it was Helen who was fought over in the Trojan War. Hermione was Helen's daughter.



Catherine - May 6, 2004 4:43 am (#172 of 2486)
Actually, Hermione was fought over as well:

She was a daughter of Menelaus and Helen. Before the Trojan War began, she was betrothed to Orestes, her cousin through Menelaus' brother, Agamemnon. Later, her father wanted her to marry Neoptolemus. The two grooms fought and Neoptolemus was killed.



Czarina II - May 9, 2004 8:45 pm (#173 of 2486)
That's doesn't bear any resemblance to the Harry Potter series, though, thank goodness. And that's certainly not a well-known Greek myth.



Catherine - May 10, 2004 5:40 am (#174 of 2486)
I don't know, Czarina,

Looks like maybe Hermione has inspired some rivalry between two potential suitors--Ron and Viktor! Viktor was pretty jealous, although of Harry, and Ron was definitely miffed that Viktor was showing her so much attention.

Maybe a shred of truth in there after all!



S.E. Jones - May 10, 2004 8:09 pm (#175 of 2486)
Good point, Catherine. Seems Victor's been keeping his eye on the wrong friend, he should be watching out for Ron and not Harry. It makes you even more curious to know what they talk about in their letters to each other, doesn't it? Probably boring stuff, though, like what new fascinating book each has discovered. Victor did seem to be the bookish type.



Verbina - May 10, 2004 9:10 pm (#176 of 2486)
But those letters are so long!!!! Okay they could be talking about books in them but...nothing else???



S.E. Jones - May 10, 2004 9:34 pm (#177 of 2486)
Maybe they're giving each other tips on being grumpy?...



Fawkes Forever - May 11, 2004 2:32 am (#178 of 2486)
Hee hee Sarah... lesson 1, how to perfect the perfect scowl....

Hmmm, I do wonder what Hermione writes in those long letters.... we also have no idea as to the length of Viktors replies.... It's possibly.. "Harry & Ron did this.... and then that, & urgh they are such boys!" Viktor replies.... "It is very nice this time of year in Bulgaria Her-my-own-ninny, are you sure you wouldn't like to visit over the holidays?" Hermione: "ummm actually I don't know! I might be going to the Burrow this year... staying with Ron, I mean Ginnys' family..."

Hmmm, JK, after you've finished Hogwarts a History... could you write 'The Correspondence of Miss Hermione Granger : Companion Piece to GoF & OotP' Well it's worth a try!



haymoni - May 11, 2004 5:18 am (#179 of 2486)
If Umbridge was watching the mail, that must have been some code that Hermione was using to write to Krum. She may have been trying to see if Viktor had noticed anything happening at Durmstrang.



Catherine - May 11, 2004 5:21 am (#180 of 2486)
I don't think that Viktor was at Durmstrang in OoP--wasn't he in his final year in GoF?

I'm not sure that anyone would think that Hermione's letters were worth opening! They probably assumed she was talking about her lastest Arithmancy class or something...



haymoni - May 11, 2004 5:24 am (#181 of 2486)
But she hangs around the evil Harry Potter. I can't believe Umbridge would let Hermione's letters go through unchecked.

You are right about Viktor being out of school - if he was still playing for Bulgaria, though, he would have the ability to travel and talk with other wizards to see if they had noticed anything strange going on in their countries.



mike miller - May 11, 2004 5:27 am (#182 of 2486)
I agree that Hermione's letters would have been screened. I can just see Pansy wanting to read every single word!



Chris. - May 11, 2004 5:32 am (#183 of 2486)
Hmm... if Pansy did get her hands on them, she would've told Rita Skeeter.



Loopy Lupin - May 11, 2004 10:01 am (#184 of 2486)
I don't think Rita is corresponding with too many people these days. She'd be scared that she would do something to upset Hermione and then Hermione would turn her in for being an unregistered animagus.



Czarina II - May 11, 2004 6:04 pm (#185 of 2486)
I think when characters in the Harry Potter universe think of Hermione Granger, most of them immediately think of books. Adjectives that they would commonly use to describe her would be smart, bossy, arrogant (or know-it-all), talented, powerful, subtly attractive (she's not gorgeous or anything), and thinks well on her feet. Also, she is mysterious and therefore interesting -- to teenage boys (because she is DEFINITELY an enigma to them!) and to teenage girls, because she is atypical. The only girl at Hogwarts more strange than Hermione is Luna.

Umbridge would think nothing of Hermione's letters if they did not explicitly contain anything suspicious. She probably read one of her letters to Viktor and thought either a) "This girl is much too into books! How boring." or b) "The musings of a teenage girl to her star Quidditch player boyfriend. Now, these could be interesting, but...oh, what a dimwit! All she talks about with him is books! [or some other boring subject that does not relate to power-mongering]" Hermione is much too smart for Umbridge.



Liz Mann - May 15, 2004 9:23 am (#186 of 2486)
On J.K.'s official site, she says that Hermione was born on September 19th.



Mrs. Sirius - May 17, 2004 11:36 pm (#187 of 2486)
On her site JKR also says that the Boggart in the wardrobe with Hermione in POA signifies Hermione's fear of failure!



Mare - May 18, 2004 7:03 am (#188 of 2486)
I wonder if at some point Hermiones boggart changes from fear of failure in class, in fear of failing her friends?



Mrs. Sirius - May 18, 2004 9:31 pm (#189 of 2486)
I think Hermione's fear of failure extends to every thing she does. She has exceptional high standards and expect to excel in everything she tries, (e.g. helping Hagrid with research to save Buckbeak, DA). Which I think why SPEW and it's lack of success is so frustrating to her.



Tsuta - Jun 17, 2004 7:51 am (#190 of 2486)
Hi! I just finished reading this thread and I have two things to say. First, peoples talked about Hermione's boggart a lot through all the messages. If I understand well, we're supposed to see her boggart at the exams in POA... well, I didn't remember that so I went to check, but ... I own the HP books only in french you see, and well, when I went to see, the DADA exams part was just a tiny bit where it was just said they had to fight many different creatures, including a boggart. But there weren't any details at all! It's so frustrating! So... *please* could someone be kind enough to quote me the part about Hermione facing her boggart? Pretty please? ...I wonder what else is missing in the french books too, now >=(

Okay, the other thing I wanted to post here now...

Right now I'm re-reading GOF and I'm almost finished with it. Last night, I saw (well, read) something I never noticed before. I don't know if it's ever been discussed elsewhere, if it was, I'm sorry about that. Okay, so you know, in the 36th chapter (well, in the french version, it's in that chapter, I don't know if it's different for the original version), at the very end of it, Molly is hugging Harry, and then (and please bear with me, can't quote properly since I don't have the english books so I'll just try to translate what I read in the french version)

"There was a big noise, like a door being shut (abruptly, I mean), and Mrs Weasly let go of Harry. Hermione, standing up in front of the window, was holding something very tightly in her hand.

-I'm sorry, she whispered
-Your potion, Harry, suddenly said Mrs Weasley, wipping her eye with the back of her hand"

And then Harry take the potion and fall asleep again, blah blah blah.

But what is it with Hermione? It's the first time I even notice this bit... what was she holding? Why did she whisper I'm sorry?



mike miller - Jun 17, 2004 7:55 am (#191 of 2486)
Tsuta - I too have just finished rereading GoF, last night in fact. I think (I'm pretty sure) that was Hermione catching Rita Skeeter in her animagus form.



Kerstin - Jun 17, 2004 8:02 am (#192 of 2486)
Tsuta, Hermione was catching Rita Skeeter in her animagus-form. She told Harry and Ron later on the train home about it.

I can't answer your first question, I don't have my books here, but I don't think there's something left out in any translated version. And I can't remember about Hermiones boggart showing up at the exams.

But I'm sure someone will look it up for you and post it.



Fawkes Forever - Jun 17, 2004 8:15 am (#193 of 2486)
I've no books here... so this is from memory, so it might not be correct

In PoA, Lupin sets up an obstacle course of sorts for their practical DADA exam. He has placed a boggart in a Wardrobe at the end of this course. As part of the exam each student goes into the wardrobe individually to deal with the boggart. When it is Hermiones turn, she comes out of the wardrobe in tears, saying that Prof Mc Gonagall (I think) is in there & that she just told Hermione that she failed all her exams...

We of course know that its actually a boggart, which tells us that Hermiones biggest fear is failure which in turn highlights her insecurity. Prof Lupin has to calm Hermione down after this ... & Ron, being Ron finds it amusing

And yes the noise in the hospital wing was Hermione trapping Rita



Tomoé - Jun 17, 2004 8:28 am (#194 of 2486)
First Tsuta, the chapters of the French Translation, and likely all other translations, fit the original British chapters.

Second, here's the quote where we learn what is the form of Hermione's Boggart :

Hermione did everything perfectly until she reached the trunk with the Boggart in it. After about a minute inside it, she burst out again, screaming.
'Hermione!' said Lupin, starled. 'What's the matter?'
'P-P-Professor McGonagall!' Hermione gasped, pointing into the trunk. 'Sh-she said I'd failed everything!'
It took a while to calm Hermione down. When at last she had regained a grip on herself, she, Harry and Ron went back to the castle. Ron was still slightly inclined to laugh at Hermione's Boggart (UK PS ch.16 p.234)

I think I remember reading that in the French version too, maybe my memories are tricking me again, it was two year ago.

Edit : you were faster than me Fawkes. ^_^



Accio Book Six - Jun 17, 2004 8:37 am (#195 of 2486)
Poor Hermione.

I think that this is a testament as to HOW afraid of failure Hermione is. She KNEW it was a boggart, but still she let it bother her so much that she had to leave before finishing it off. It just seems so out of character for Hermione to ever leave a task unfinished, ESPECIALLY in an exam.



Tsuta - Jun 17, 2004 9:13 am (#196 of 2486)
Nope, it isn't in the french version... well, not in mine anyway, maybe it's there in others editions (I'm clueless about that sort of thing)? Anyway thanks for quoting it ^_^ *happy* ..poor Hermione though =(

And thanks everyone who answered me about what Hermione was holding. I didn't think about that. I always thought Hermione caught Skeeter later, during the last school week. lol... so when I caught that bit in the novel for the firt time, I imagined a whole impossible plot, with Hermione going back in time to try stopping them (Cedric and Harry) from touching the trophy but failed to get throught the maze in time. Yeah, I know she gave back the time turner, so it isn't possible but... I dunno. Good fanfic material thought, I guess =D



Tomoé - Jun 17, 2004 9:28 am (#197 of 2486)
My sister in law's pocket size have it on page 340, her copy was printed in 2001, but the translation copyright is dated 1999.

Edit : Maybe that's one of those valuable misprint. ^_~



Tsuta - Jun 17, 2004 1:35 pm (#198 of 2486)
Which is a valuable misprint, the one with Hermione's boggart?

This is weird... I wonder why it's not there in my copy. The only thing that is there is after the boggart lesson, Hermione is saying how she would have liked to fight the boggart too. And then Ron says 'what would be your worst fear, not scoring 20/20 on a test?' ... I wonder ... in the versions with Hermione's boggart, is that part mentionned too, or is it a complete surprise when Hermione do her exams (well, a surprise.. not really, but you see what I mean)



Padfoot - Jun 17, 2004 1:38 pm (#199 of 2486)
I think that when Hermione faces a Boggart for the first time, it is on her exams. Talk about nerve racking! She didn't get to properly prepare for a test, that must have really made her mad. Perhaps that's why she is so upset when she does face the Boggart, it was scarier than she anticipated.



Kip Carter - Jun 17, 2004 2:07 pm (#200 of 2486)
In my books, the text at the end of Chapter Seven reads as follows:

"He seems like a very good teacher," said Hermione approvingly. "But I wish I could have had a turn with the boggart --"

"What would it have been for you?" said Ron, sniggering. "A piece of homework that only got nine out of ten?"
Tsuta. where did you get that wording?

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Sir Tornado - Jun 17, 2004 2:20 pm (#201 of 2486)
Hermione Granger is one of the key characters in the Harry Potter series and because of this, the messages in his thread grow at a huge rate.--Introduction.

Shouldn't the underlined word in the introduction be her instead of his?

P.S-Sorry couldn't help noticing.



Kip Carter - Jun 17, 2004 2:26 pm (#202 of 2486)
Tornedo, Thanks and you are very correct in your correction. I have made the change. My error!



Tomoé - Jun 17, 2004 3:20 pm (#203 of 2486)
You are not reading the right chapter Tsuta, it's chapter 16, not chapter 7. And the mystery is solved. ^_~



Tsuta - Jun 17, 2004 7:24 pm (#204 of 2486)
no, what I said is the bit where they do the DADA exam, it is not detailed. We don't see Hermione fighting/reacting to her boggart at all, we're just told that Harry did good. The only bit where Hermione's boggart is 'hinted' is more in the beggining, after the first DADA lesson, when Ron say that her boggart would be not having a perfect score on a test. But he was just poking fun at Hermione. In my version of POA, Hermione never face any Boggarts. That's kinda frustrating because it makes me wonder if there are a lot more missing bits thorought all the books. Makes me want to buy the books in english from now on... I like the original names better anyway...



Accio Book Six - Jun 18, 2004 5:32 am (#205 of 2486)
If you're missing out on anything, it probably isn't major, but it would still probably annoy me. They probably had to cut some minor stuff just because French is longer than English, and it would be getting PRETTY lengthy if they didn't shave a bit off. I know that cuz I'm Canadian and EVERYTHING that is written in English here has to be written in French too, and the sentences are twice as long as the English one.

That's my guess anyway. If I were you, I'd probably invest in the English ones... but that IS expensive and you probably aren't missing anything that major.



Tomoé - Jun 18, 2004 1:03 pm (#206 of 2486)
Sorry Tsuta, I thought Kip's post was one of yours. I read too fast yet again. -_-

Anyway, I strongly recommend you to buy the original English version or at least contact the editor to know why certain copies have that part and some others no. By the way, do you have a pocket size book or a paperback one?

Accio, they could have cut some stuff in the fist books (like the flesh-eating slug repellant that became a slug repellant in CoS), but they have nothing to win now by cutting a single word now. ^_^



Tsuta - Jun 18, 2004 1:20 pm (#207 of 2486)

is canadian too* ... erm.. they're not.. *twice* as long... are they? Does it annoy you that the french has to be there too? ^^;; eheh, sorry.. I just feel a bit defensive about my first language, I guess.

Hey, I know it's been talked about already, but I'd like to talk about Hermione's parents... why do we almost never see them? Maybe we'll see them more in the 6th book? JKR said that that the intro of the 6th book has been in the brewing since 13 years, but that she wasn't able to put it in any other books before... maybe we'll see Hermione's house now? Well, it's probably not that... but it's pretty annoying that we know Harry and Ron's familly, but not Hermione's at all. They're muggle, so what? Some nice muggles for once in the book, that'd be a great change.



Tsuta - Jun 18, 2004 1:30 pm (#208 of 2486)
The first three books I have are pocket sized.. we bought them together, it was cheaper that way. We got the paperback version for the last two books though, because I was too eager to wait for the pocket format lol



Tomoé - Jun 18, 2004 1:46 pm (#209 of 2486)
I don't think Harry will ever go to the Grangers', I would be unsafe now. Maybe Ron will go to the Grangers' this summer and tell Harry stuff about Hermione's family (yes, I'm a R/Hr shipper ^_^ ).



Accio Book Six - Jun 18, 2004 1:52 pm (#210 of 2486)
Just to clarify, I'm sorry Tsuta. I wasn't knocking french at all! And I know it's not TWICE as long, but I was just thinking of a reason that that bit would be cut. I'd say that *some* sentences are twice as long, though, right? hehe, I'm sorry. I sort of find this funny. I love natives from quebec! And I love it when I go to Quebec city and get laughed at for my broken french Smile

Anyways, about Hermione's parents, I don't think that they'll really play a part. I think that JK once said that the story is about wizards and not muggles, and I THINK that she said that about Hermione's parents specifically. If anyone can find the quote, that would be great. I think that if they DO play a part at all, it will be because they'll hear about VWII and try and make Hermione stay away from wizards. What do you think?



Tsuta - Jun 18, 2004 3:25 pm (#211 of 2486)
Hm.. I can see how it would be unsafe.. didn't think about that. Well... hm.. maybe the Grangers could visit the Weasleys in the summer? I mean, they must miss their daughter, sometime! I would... I like the idea of them trying to keep Hermione away for her safety... I mean I don't *like* the idea (I don't want Hermione to stay away!), but I think it'd be a great way to deepen Hermione's character. Even more I mean.

Oh and Accio (great nickname btw lol.. if it could be that simple..) .. don't worry ^^; you have nothing to apologize for, like I said, I get a bit too defensive when it comes to french. But thanks for your explanation. And you're right after all, french can get long sometime lol. I still don't like missing details of the books though... oh well.



Weeny Owl - Jun 18, 2004 9:08 pm (#212 of 2486)
Maybe the Grangers will be threatened and will end up at 12 Grimmauld Place. I see some dental work in Snape's future if that happens, although poor Hermione would probably be in detention until the end of the series.





Lars Smedberg - Jun 19, 2004 12:05 pm (#213 of 2486)
Are you sure Hermione's parents really miss her ?

I know this sounded stupid, but I read about this question in another thread; why does Hermione spend so little time with her parents ? She usually stay at home during Christmas - O.K., Harry is her friend and she wants to keep him company and so on, but what about her parents ? Don't they want her home ? Don't she want to visit them ? And what about summer holiday between Book # 4 and Book # 5 - it seemes like Hermione spent that holiday together with Ron and the others, NOT with her parents.

I have thought at this; could it be something "fishy" with the relation between Hermione and her parents ? Maybe - yes, this is pure speculation, I KNOW that, but still... - they never really wanted a child ? I figure them as a (young) couple, divided between profession and social life, with not much interest in "ordinary family life" and who never really wanted children. When they nevertheless HAD a child, they tried to do their best, and I don't think they are bad people - but I don't think they really succeeded with the "family" thing, and that they were quite relieved when they were spared from the responsibilities of parenthood thanks to the Hogwarts letter; possibly they would have sent her to boarding school (a Muggle one, that is) anyway ?

And as for Hermione herself; she might also have seen the Hogwarts letter as a relief; now it was confirmed that she did belong to another world, not to her parents' - this might also be one answer to the question why she's so ambitious...

As I said, this is just pure speculation - but what do you think ?



Weeny Owl - Jun 19, 2004 1:17 pm (#214 of 2486)
I think the Grangers love their daughter and realize that she's driven by her insatiable curiosity, her need to learn, and her need to fit in in a totally new world.

They were with her in CoS when she was getting her books, they've taken her on trips, and she mentioned how much they would like the Toothflossing Stringmints.

While we haven't seen much of them, what we have seen or heard about indicates to me that they are supportive of her and that she's a beloved child.

I don't see anything fishy about what we hear or don't hear because the books are mostly from Harry's perspective, and chances are her parents are rarely a topic of discussion considering what happens to the trio each year.



Chemyst - Jun 19, 2004 1:37 pm (#215 of 2486)
To say that the Grangers never really wanted children is a giant leap. We have very little information on any Hogwart parent who does not belong to the wizarding world. If anyone is pushing anyone away, it seems to be Hermione ditching her parents, not them abandoning her. She seems to know how to push their buttons and manipulate them, because "Mom, I can't go skiing, I need to study." is not the excuse of a typical 15 year-old.

I think the main reason we haven't seen more of Hermione's parents is because this isn't a book about muggle dentistry. We hear references of fabulous vacations they've taken her on- or wanted to. They were present and trying to be supportive in CS Diagon Alley scenes. But they "were standing nervously at the counter that ran all along the green marble hall (of Gringotts), waiting for Hermione to introduce them." Mr. Weasley is delighted to meet muggles, but that is an exception. They are probably well aware of wizard prejudices against them and don't want to impose.

I wonder too if there were many similarities between the Grangers and Mr. & Mrs. Evans. Did Lily's parents let her do whatever and go wherever she wanted? (Meanwhile Petunia was the "good daughter" who stayed home and scrubbed the house? No wonder she has issues.) Or it may be that both the Grangers and the Evans realized they had daughters with unique talents which they had limited ability to develop and nurture, so they entrusted their daughters to a boarding school to "let the experts handle it." They may miss her terribly but think they are "doing the right thing" by letting her go.



Lars Smedberg - Jun 19, 2004 2:44 pm (#216 of 2486)
Like I said, it was only speculations from my side... Well, we might know for sure - or we might not...

Another thing about Hermione, though; what about the relation between her and Ron ? It doesn't seem to evolve at all during Book # 5; the only indication that there might be something between them is the jealousy Ron shows when Hermione tells that she's corresponding with Krum; the thing are just like they are in Book # 4...

Imagine what might have happened; they have been together for what seems to be most of Summer holidays... Okay, they've had a lot of "chaperones" - I don't think that Mrs. Weasley would have let something "improper" pass unnoticed - but still; what might have happened...



Lars Smedberg - Jun 19, 2004 2:52 pm (#217 of 2486)
And I would like to add this; I never said that Hermione's parents ABANDONED her - on the contrary, they were probably very anxious to "do the right thing", and at least TRY to behave as "normal parents". But she's a smart girl - she knows truth for what it is. And SHE surely wants to behave as a "normal daughter", too - but she's young, and good intentions are sometimes easily forgotten...



S.E. Jones - Jun 19, 2004 11:56 pm (#218 of 2486)
I think the Grangers do, indeed, miss their daughter, but as Chemyst said, are willing to let her go because this is her world ( this Wizarding world) and not theirs, a world she'll have to someday function in, and they know it. Hermione's description of her parents in OotP made it sound to me that they were very disappointed that she couldn't go skiing with them, like they were looking forward to spending time with her but want her to do well and so were willing to let her go back to school. I am, however, more disturbed by Hermione's lack of - emotion, perhaps - in regards to missing her parents. She doesn't seem to miss them much at all. I'll bet that Ron would comment on missing his family if he didn't see them for more than a week out of a year, but we don't hear anything from Hermione about it. I know this isn't a story about dentists, but it is one about witches and wizards, and Hermione is one such witch in question. It has really made me start to think about just what makes Hermione tick, you know?



Weeny Owl - Jun 20, 2004 1:11 am (#219 of 2486)
I think Hermione weighs how desperate someone's needs are before making decisions.

Her parents are happy, going on a skiing trip, and have no cares that we know of about what is going on in the Wizarding World. They were a bit disappointed, but they probably understand what it's like to be a teen. Granted, she didn't tell her parents the truth, but as we've seen from her best friends, they don't always tell the truth either.

Dumbledore had told her what had happened, and while it was her decision, I doubt if he would have told her had he not already thought she would go to Grimmauld Place to support the Weasleys and Harry.

Hermione is a very caring person, and there is no doubt in my mind that she would drop everything (even her study schedule) should her parents need her... not just want her on a vacation with them, but truly need her.



Czarina II - Jun 20, 2004 9:11 pm (#220 of 2486)
Hermione's parents might well have assumed that Hermione wanted to spend more time with Ron and Harry over Christmas holidays. She's fifteen, after all, and just had her first real romance (Krum). Maybe Hermione was home with the Grangers for two weeks at the end of GoF and all she could talk about were boys. We don't know what/if she writes letters home. Her mother might have easily read between the lines of a letter or two about how much fun or how annoying Ron was at Hallowe'en (I'm entirely making this up) and logically assumed that Hermione wanted to spend time with the Weasleys, especially if Mr Weasley was ill. I'd like to think Arthur got a get-well/Christmas card from the Grangers. [I apologise -- I am sentimental!]

I think that because Hermione is a witch, she doesn't identify with her mother and father in the same way that Ginny identifies with Molly. In fact, Hermione can probably identify more with Molly Weasley than she can her own mother.



Lars Smedberg - Jun 22, 2004 11:13 am (#221 of 2486)
"Romance" - should we really call what happened between Hermione and Krum for a romance ? Okay, maybe it was from HIS point of view, but I don't think she was THAT interested in him; she probably thought it was nice to be "courted". She has hormones too, you know... But I believe it's very probable that Hermione idealizes the Weasley family; sees them as the "ideal family", with a "motherly" mother and a lot of kids - herself, she has no brothers or sisters, and her parents, well... you know my theory.



Norbert not a common welsh green - Jun 22, 2004 12:53 pm (#222 of 2486)
Did JKR not say she had a little sister?



Tomoé - Jun 22, 2004 1:04 pm (#223 of 2486)
She said she will likely edit her out.

I always planned that Hermione would have a younger sister but she's never made an appearance and somehow it feels like it might be too late now.



scorpio 75 - Jun 23, 2004 8:48 am (#224 of 2486)
Do you think Hermione will end up with Ron? or is it possible that she will end up with Harry instead?



Fawkes Forever - Jun 23, 2004 8:56 am (#225 of 2486)
Hee hee Scorpio, the time old question

Most of us here on the forum have our own ideas about this, but we're not really supposed to discuss them on the main threads... because the debates can get a little bit heated

There's a thread dedicated to relationships on the forum, the 'Ship-'Ship (Exploring Relationships) thread, (under the Theories section) so you might want to that check that out & post some of your ideas over there. There are plenty of colourful discussions in that thread regarding the Ron/Hermione or Harry/Hermione situation, as well as other possible relationships in the series... Happy reading...



scorpio 75 - Jun 23, 2004 9:11 am (#226 of 2486)
Thanks for the info Fawkes! Can't wait to go there.



Fawkes Forever - Jun 23, 2004 9:12 am (#227 of 2486)
No problem Scorpio, just be prepared for a long read



Mrs. Sirius - Jun 27, 2004 9:32 pm (#228 of 2486)
Tsuta, I checked my copy of POA in French, it does seem to skip a the Hermione fighting McGonagall boggart in the DADA exam. I wondered if I had missed that omission when I had read it in Spanish. It seems that Spanish version translated that portion, it's in two short paragraphs. Spanish is like French in that it takes much longer to write from the English.

Unfortunately, I have lent my English POA so I can't a full comparison to the English. The paperback French edition has 461 pages, the hardcover Spanish edition has 359 pages. I know that this is not a fair comparison in that the type set and layout are different, but it does make you wonder.

On the question of Hermione's parents, I think it's very unselfish of them to allow their young daughter to spend so much time in her own world. The skills of the muggle world are not going to be that useful to Hermione in the long run, they know this. Wizards and witches can spend their entire life times with no interactions with muggles. Hermione has come late to this world and they know that she is in good hands with the Weasleys, having met them in COS. They also know Hermione can handle herself.



Czarina II - Jul 4, 2004 8:11 pm (#229 of 2486)
Has anyone read a recent editorial on Mugglenet? It's called "The Death of the Grangers". The author points out several good arguments for the death of Hermione's parents in the last books.

The link to the editorial is [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Any thoughts?



Julia. - Jul 4, 2004 9:08 pm (#230 of 2486)
Sounds very likely. I can see that happening, although I'm not sure about Ron and Harry saying there over the summer.



DJ Evans - Jul 4, 2004 9:32 pm (#231 of 2486)
Wow, you're right--a lot of thought went into that. And as Julia said, I see it also as a possibility--not just Ron/Harry staying there either.

After reading that & taking their theory on a different route, I see more of it as maybe happening something on this order. As we've been told this is suppose to be Harry's shortest stay at #4 Privet Drive--that maybe something dire happens and to keep Harry safer, the Order moves him (along with Ron/Hermione) to a secret location. In LV's attempt to draw them out, to get to Harry, he sends his D.E.'s after The Granger's. As I feel either the charm will be enough for The Dursley's safety or The Order might even move them to this secret location too? (Hey, it's a thought?) Therefore, this might be when The Granger's are killed. He figures by drawing out Hermione that Harry won't be far behind.

As far as to whether this might be where Hermione becomes the all powerful witch as the author said? Well, and many of you might disagree with me here, but I hope that it might bring someone else forward & not Hermione. I mean, we already know she is someone to be reckon with--that she is the "smartest witch for her age" and all. I would just like to see someone else get the chance to shine here. If that makes sense?

Later, Deb



Tomoé - Jul 4, 2004 11:49 pm (#232 of 2486)
Yes DJ Evans, I too wish to see someone to get the chance to shine. And like Julia, I believe it's unlikely Harry will go to the Granger's, not safe enough. Ron on the other hand could pass the summer there. However, the Grangers are definitely on the top of my list of people who may get killed.



DJ Evans - Jul 5, 2004 8:33 am (#233 of 2486)
No, I couldn't really see where they would let Harry stay at a Muggle residence either. I was hoping that it would might be Neville's time to shine, but I just can't see where he would fit into this scenario with Hermione and the Granger's though.

As someone said (sorry can't remember who now) that we would need to get to know more of the Granger's or the impact of them being killed just wouldn't affect us as much as a known character would. I know we've heard some on them, but no inter-reaction really with them. I know I'm not saying that right , that it sounds kinda cold--and I'm not trying to come across as that by any means. Either way, if it should come about--it will be hard on Hermione. Which will affect Ron/Harry in their own way.

Later, Deb



Sherbie Lemon - Jul 5, 2004 6:57 pm (#234 of 2486)
Deb, I don't think what you wrote sounds cold at all. Indeed, it's quite true that we haven't grow attached to the Grangers, though we certainly have to Hermione. Which means that when the Grangers are murdered, our pain won't stem from the hole that they leave (ala Sirius), rather it will be from Hermione's anquish.

Like everyone else, I don't think it likely that Harry and Ron will stay at the Grangers. I can't imagine forcing muggles to live under the Fidelius Charm, how on earth would the postman or their friends find them? How would they explain their absence? Instead I think it more likely that Hermione's parents will come to stay with the Order. Perhaps in HBP, someone (Lucius?) will attempt to kill or torture them, but be thwarted somehow. Then the Grangers, for their own protection or to be near their daughter, will stay at headquarters (whether that be Grimmauld Place or not) and the readers will have the opportunity to become somewhat attached to them. Perhaps later in HBP or even book 7, they will be murdered.

Yet on the other hand, they could just be killed without us ever growing attached. Our pain would instead come from reading about Hermione's grief, rather than from their actual deaths.



Julia. - Jul 5, 2004 9:43 pm (#235 of 2486)
I'm with Sherbie on this one. Our pain would come from Hermione's grief. If the Grangers died on page two of HBP I would fell horrible about it, because Hermione would be devistated at the loss of her parents.



Steve Newton - Jul 6, 2004 8:13 am (#236 of 2486)
Some thoughts that may follow the previous thoughts.

In POA Lupin says that Hermione is the greatest witch of her age. (Not a direct quotation, I don't have the book handy.)

Does he mean age 14 or does he mean of the current era?

If the current era it would seem that Lord V would target her a a main opponent to destroy or harm or distract.



Sir Tornado - Jul 6, 2004 12:04 pm (#237 of 2486)
I think of her age. i.e 14 years. Anyway, that sounded a bit offhand comment to me.



Prefect Marcus - Jul 6, 2004 1:46 pm (#238 of 2486)
I always assumed he Lupin meant she was the cleverest witch of her year at Hogwarts. That includes Hannah, Lavender, Pavarti, Pansy, etc.



The Artful Dodger - Jul 6, 2004 6:46 pm (#239 of 2486)
quoting Czarina, message #63: "She also needs to learn that Voldemort probably won't be defeated by books. She recognises the trauma that Voldemort inflicts on Harry, but does not go about a good way of treating it. ... Most importantly, however, it would change her attitude toward Harry. She might realise what he faces is greater than a whole mountain of homework. "

Don't know if anybody commented on that already (too lazy to read all the posts), but Hermione has already realized this.

"Harry", she said timidly,"don't you see? This ... this is exactly why we need you ... we need to know what it's r-really like ... facing him ... facing V-Voldemort." (from "The Order of Phoenix", British Hardback Edition, Ch.15, p.293)

What I'm trying to say is, she has changed her over-sophisticated attitude, she is really affected emotionally by the menace of Lord Voldemort and the gravity of Harry's fate.



Ff3girl - Jul 6, 2004 7:46 pm (#240 of 2486)
I think she has known this for a long time. *sigh* I still don't have my books, but I know before Harry goes in to fight Quirrelmort, Hermione says something like... "Books, cleverness, there are more important things... and oh, Harry! Just be careful!" I think she's always known that books and cleverness aren't the most important things in life, but they sure come in handy.

Book smarts always give a strong advantage to anyone. Hermione was the one who knew what to do to the Devil's Snare, she was able to figure out before anybody that the monster in the chamber of secrets was a basilisk, she figured out that Lupin was a werewolf... I could keep going, but you get the idea.

Quite frankly, I think we would have a lot less to worry about if Harry would worry more about his studies. I think he will in the next books, anyway. After all, knowledge is power, etc. yada yada.



Hollywand - Jul 6, 2004 7:59 pm (#241 of 2486)
Great points, Ff3; I think if you read Hermione's remarks in tense times, she's very insecure about being muggle-born, and her parting remark to Harry reflects a real key to to the direction of the story.



Tom Vitleysa - Jul 7, 2004 8:32 am (#242 of 2486)
I don't think Hermione did always know that book-smarts weren't everything. I think she learned that at the beginning of PS and really came to some hard understandings in life in the girls' bathroom before she was so rudely interupted. There was no reason for her to lie about the events in the bathroom. If she had said that Harry and Ron had come to get her because they knew she didn't know of the danger and by the time they got there, there was no time to get help, I doubt anyone would have gotten in trouble. It certainly would have been better than "I came looking for the troll to take it on myself." I think she lied because she wanted to prove to the boys that she wasn't everything they thought she was. It was that act, after all, that secured their friendship. Hermione, of course, seems to have learned these lessons with as much proficiency as her book studies.



haymoni - Jul 7, 2004 8:46 am (#243 of 2486)
I agree, Tom - I've never understood that line - Hermione didn't even know about the troll until it was standing in front of her.

How did she know that everyone was looking for it?

The more plausible answer was what you suggested.



Ff3girl - Jul 7, 2004 9:22 pm (#244 of 2486)
I think she lied about seeking out the troll so that McGonagall wouldn't find out the real reason she was in the girls' room. Maybe if McGonagall found out she was in the girls' room because Ron was making fun of her, he might have been in trouble, so she was maybe protecting him? Just an idea...

Even if telling the truth would have been more logical, I think that for maybe the first time, she decided to go against what was logical and do something to earn the respect of people she wanted to be her friends. After all, it seems like before this she didn't really have any friends.



Sir Tornado - Jul 8, 2004 1:04 am (#245 of 2486)
Had that Troll incident not happened, I think Hermione would've been the next Percy of Hogwarts, don't you think? Instead, she became my favourite character.



Anna Osipova - Jul 8, 2004 1:23 am (#246 of 2486)
Definately! I totally agree with you Tornedo Smile

"Maybe if McGonagall found out she was in the girls' room because Ron was making fun of her, he might have been in trouble, so she was maybe protecting him?" - Ff3girl

Hermione could have simply said that someone had been making fun of her, she needn't have mentioned any names. But I do agree with you about her doing it for the sake of friendship.



Fawkes Forever - Jul 8, 2004 2:27 am (#247 of 2486)
Just had a mad thought... if Ron & Harry hadn't of saved Hermione from the Troll, we may have had another weeping ghost haunting a girls bathroom & more than likely haunting Ron Weasley as well Hee hee... sorry, couldn't resist.

I think Hermione cottoned on pretty quickly to the situation & covered for the boys because she knew she would get away with a lighter punishment as it was a 'first offence' & she probably felt she owed them, after they had saved her life. It just showed the boys that she was a decent friend & was not a tattle tail

There was one deleted scene on the PS DVD I thought should have been included (as it was only a few seconds long), was when Ron & Harry thank Hermione for covering for them & Ron says something like "Sure what are friends for". It just highlights the change in their attitude towards her... the same as in the book.



total hatred - Jul 8, 2004 3:54 am (#248 of 2486)
You got a point there. If the boys don't save her, we have another Moaning Myrtle. I just love the idea Hermione haunting Ron.



Catherine - Jul 8, 2004 5:57 am (#249 of 2486)
I always thought we saw a little of the "wizard debt" playing out in the troll scene. Even though the boys' bumbling locked the troll in the bathroom with her, they did save her life, and she may have felt obligated to keep them out of trouble.

I also like that it's an accidental version of Sirius's prank on Snape. Ron accidentally set it up (by making fun of Hermione) that she would be attacked by a troll, and then Ron and Harry go save her. But instead of being lifelong enemies, it made them the best of friends.



Anna Osipova - Jul 8, 2004 1:54 pm (#250 of 2486)
"I just love the idea Hermione haunting Ron." - total hatred

Are you saying it's any different from that now? Smile

I was just wondering why Hermione is so "knowledge oriented"? Did her parents maybe grind that idea that school is the most important thing? Because from what I've noticed about her parents, they don't seem to be too like that. Or was it just a born characteristic?

Although she's definitely changed, that quote ("We could have all been killed - or worse, expelled." - Ch. 9, Pg. 162, Bk. 1, US Version) has always stuck with me. What would make her say that? A mere affinity for learning?

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ellebell86 - Jul 8, 2004 2:29 pm (#251 of 2486)
I dont think that it was her parents that made her into an obsessive student i think that it is just part of her character. She's simply an overachiever and her parents dont seem to have too much influence on her life. After all they let her go to stay in diagon alley before her third year starts knowing that she will be gone for most of the year anyway. And over Christmas break she goes to OotP instead of on the ski trip with her parents. I know that if I went to a boarding school my parents would want me with them over breaks. Im not saying that they dont love her but that Hermione has more influence over her parents than most. Personally I have friends who are overachievers with perfectly normal parents. But we do not know much about Hermione's parents except that they are muggle dentists and that they dont want her to fix her own teeth.

Also,I'm not sure if this has already been covered but I've been wondering why everyone seems oblivious of her birthday which we know falls during the school year because she gets the money for crookshanks as an early birthday present.



Anna Osipova - Jul 8, 2004 2:35 pm (#252 of 2486)
Her birthday is September 19. I don't think that people (if by that you mean Hogwarts students) are oblivious, it's just that nothing significant has ever occurred on that particular day, so JKR didn't feel the need to include the celebration, much like with Ron.



Muggle Doctor - Jul 8, 2004 3:32 pm (#253 of 2486)
In the film version (Aussie release) of PoA, both Lupin and Sirius tell her that she is the "brightest witch of her generation."

If we accept that they use the word "witch" because they are talking to a girl, this means that she is the most intelligent magic-user of her chronological age (of any gender) and a few years each way ("generation" covers quite a broad range). Anywhere. Not just Hogwarts.

Even if we think they are ONLY referring to female magic-users, she is still the brightest of the girls (and probably more than almost all boys). While this leaves things open for a male student to better her, she's still one of the brightest in existence.

Clever enough, perhaps, to work out a shield to the killing curse?

We already know she was struck by a somewhat half-baked version of it in the MoM battle; what if she is able to somehow use the experience to develop a defence? Proof: in the sick bay afterwards, it is remarked that the curse had done nowhere near as much damage as if the incantation had been spoken out loud (the DE responsible had been hit with a silencing charm) - we do not hear what was said, but given that she was knocked unconscious for some time, and required a lot of patching up, perhaps the incantation was avada kedavra?

While slightly off the topic, this yields a possible mechanism by which Harry might bring about Voldemort's death, without having himself to become a murderer. Recall that they cannot duel directly: their wands share cores, and all you get is "Prior incantatem" out of the loser's wand (it was Voldemort who had the join between the spells forced back onto his own wand, and Voldemort's wand which was forced to regurgitate its spells). What if Harry, suitably armoured against ANYTHING Voldemort can throw at him, engages Voldy, brings about "Prior Incantatem," and allows the spirits of ALL those Voldemort has killed to bring about Voldemort's destruction? He beat Voldy in the graveyard duel, and must surely beat him again with three more years' training and hard experience under his belt...



Anna Osipova - Jul 8, 2004 3:45 pm (#254 of 2486)
That's certainly an interesting theory.

This may sound weird, but in a recent re-run of Charmed, there was a demon of some sorts who had nine lives. Once those nine lives were up, he became immortal. The Charmed Ones managed to vanquish him by forcing unto him the pain of all nine deaths. Could something similar be done here? If what Voldemort is scared of is death, then perhaps experiencing the death of his victims upon himself might kill him?



Star Crossed - Jul 8, 2004 8:39 pm (#255 of 2486)
Going a few posts back where someone mentions "We could have been killed --- or worse, expelled." I was really bored one day so I was pondering why Hermione said this. Yes, it's to show her "I like school. It's cool." personality, but it might be something more. If they were killed by Fluffy, they would have died with honour, sticking up for themselves. However, if they were expelled, it would just show that they messed up again. Besides, look at Harry, he was expelled and he thought it was the end of the world. He had no where to go or anything. He was just there. So maybe being expelled is worse than death. Aha! So that's how we defeat Voldemort. Take him back to school and expell him!



Anna Osipova - Jul 8, 2004 8:51 pm (#256 of 2486)
I do like that, but I am inclined to believe that at that point, Hermione was simply being, well, Hermione. Maybe if she had said that sometime later?



Muggle Doctor - Jul 9, 2004 12:08 am (#257 of 2486)
E.E. "Doc" Smith's classic 40's to 50's sci-fi "Lensman" novels offer another angle on the theme. There, space-pirates who intrude upon the mysterious planet Arisia basically have all their skeletons dragged out of their closets; all the evil they have ever committed is dredged up and presented to them in all its raw, unadulterated glory in a single dose - the effect is so revolting that it causes them to die. Voldemort was uncertain enough in the GoF graveyard battle: having all his sins revisited upon him might just be sufficient to destroy him. Recall also that in the novel of "The Neverending Story", the wish that destroyed the evil queen was "I wish you had a heart..."

Okay, that's enough woolgathering: back to Hermione now. (I know what it's like to have someone like Hermione as a girlfriend - going on experience, whoever actually gets Hermione would be advised to appreciate her intellect and soothe her insecurities: she is using the one as a crutch for the other, and until she gets over the insecurities, that Boggart is going to keep on telling her she's failed everything).



Sir Tornado - Jul 9, 2004 7:27 am (#258 of 2486)
You know what, I've always thought about Hermione's parents. I was always intrigued by the fact that that they were Dentists. I love Dentists. They are usually your gentle people with safe hands who can't hurt a fly. (unless they have that drill with them) But, you know, most Doctors I know want their children to follow their footsteps and become doctors as well, and, well, you've gotta be a responsible person and an intelligent one to become that. All Docs. hold a great value for education. All these qualities are found in Hermione. I think she'll become a healer.



Anna Osipova - Jul 9, 2004 1:23 pm (#259 of 2486)
Tornedo, I've recently been thinking that too, but I'm sure she'll be famous for inventing some spell or potion that will save many lives. I can definatly picture her working at St. Mungo's or perhaps even starting a new one.



Chemyst - Jul 9, 2004 4:33 pm (#260 of 2486)
I've never seen her as a Healer, even though she has met the basics listed for it in the career advice chapter (OP 29). The words describing Hermione when she looks at the pamphlets are "absently" and "vaguely" --it's as if she is looking at them out of curiosity rather than for advice. I think she already knew what she wanted to do, but since Harry never asked, we the readers don't know. The best career clues are in her S.P.E.W. activism, DA organizing, schedule organizing, and in her mystery-solving. She was intent on figuring out who Flammel was is PS/SS (even though Harry came up with the card,) she figured out the basilisk in CS, that Lupin was a werewolf in PA, that Rita was an animagi in GF. She has said her favorite class is Arithmancy, but the only career we know of that requires that is banking, and she flat out says, "I don't much fancy banking." But in PA we also learn that Professor Vector assigns essays as homework, which involves writing. Also, JKR says Hermione is a lot like she was, so I think Hermione could easily become a writer who champions causes she feels are important.



Courtney22 - Jul 9, 2004 5:21 pm (#261 of 2486)
Maybe she will take over the Daily Prophet and heighten the standards of journalism in the WW



Prefect Marcus - Jul 9, 2004 5:32 pm (#262 of 2486)
Naaaah. She's got too much integrity to be a journalist. :-)



Anna Osipova - Jul 9, 2004 5:49 pm (#263 of 2486)
Perhaps an author? Who knows, she might be the author of the Transfiguration text books Hogwarts might use :~D



I Am Used Vlad - Jul 9, 2004 6:37 pm (#264 of 2486)
I like that idea, Anna. Hermione could write the definitive Harry biography. He'd just love that.



Sir Tornado - Jul 9, 2004 7:46 pm (#265 of 2486)
I think Hermione could easily become a writer who champions causes she feels are important.--Chemyst

Bingo! Hermione's gonna be a journalist. By the end of OotP, Hermione has understood the full power of Newspaper-- how it can be used to influence a lot of people. I have a feeling she'll become a journalist and use Newspapers to propogate House-elves freedom strugle and SPEW.



DJ Evans - Jul 9, 2004 8:22 pm (#266 of 2486)
Chemyst: "Also, JKR says Hermione is a lot like she was, so I think Hermione could easily become a writer who champions causes she feels are important.

The I would be willing to take a willlllld guess and say that Hermione won't be writing the next text book for Prof. Trelawney's class. hmmmm? hee hee

Later, Deb



Chemyst - Jul 10, 2004 4:22 am (#267 of 2486)
I think you're safe on that prediction, Deb. If she wrote about divination at all, it would be an exposé.



DJ Evans - Jul 10, 2004 2:41 pm (#268 of 2486)
So right Chemyst!!! hee hee

Later, Deb



drippan - Jul 12, 2004 3:03 pm (#269 of 2486)
Hey everyone,

I think Hermoine is quite scared of Voldemort but she is also intelligent enough to realize that being scared of not saying a name is just plain stupid.

At first she does stutter the name then by the end of the book she is scolding Ron about his wincing every time the name is mentioned.

This shows that she is getting braver but I don't think it shows that she is stupid enough not to believe LV is not dangerous.

She realizes right from book 1 that she is not really strong enough to fight a strong fight when she told Harry that he must go on. That he is the one and that, even though she has knowledge, using that knowledge is very hard.

This can be seen also when she failed at riding a broomstick the very first time. I'm not certain, but I can highly speculate, that she read every book on "Riding a Broom" but failed to achieve the actual task.

DripPan



Sir Tornado - Jul 12, 2004 8:07 pm (#270 of 2486)
Yeah, there are some things you can't learn from books- Flying Broomsticks and facing Lord Voldemort are just two of them. What else d'you think Hermione might not be able to do?



Courtney22 - Jul 12, 2004 10:01 pm (#271 of 2486)
I think what Hermione can and can not acomplish is based on what is important to her. Riding a broom is not something she has ever placed any importance on. I think if she thoguht it would further her career or help her in a significant way she would simply work on it until she was good at it.



Leila 2X4B - Jul 12, 2004 10:10 pm (#272 of 2486)
I agree Courtney, Hermione's time is too precious to try to be perfect at everything. SPEW was important to her, thus she threw her heart and soul into it. Quidditch is not as important to her, therefore she could easily suggest that it breeds enmity between the houses. However, should one attempt to insinuate that she is less then capable it might spur her on to try.



drippan - Jul 12, 2004 11:08 pm (#273 of 2486)
Tornedo, "What else d'you think Hermione might not be able to do?"

Strategy! That's Ron's department (he's great at wizards chess and he finally comes up with a great strategy for being the keeper for Quidditch that did not let a single Quaffle go through). Hermione is great at logical problems (1+1=2) but that does not make a great strategist. Harry let's his emotions get in the way too much to be a great strategist.

Interpersonal relationships could be another weakness. I'm not saying she's cold hearted but she sure seems like she gets in alot of arguments. Also, she does try to take control of most situations. I wonder how she handled giving Hagrid those lesson plans in OotP? I can hear her now telling him "You have to do it this way or you'll get fired!" with love, of course. But Hagrid wouldn't listen to her and I can see her getting very frustrated at him just like she does with her relationships with everyone else.

Courtney22, "I think what Hermione can and can not accomplish is based on what is important to her."

That's is anyone in life. You set your heart to something and nothing can stop you. Except that, IMO, people are gifted in certain ways better than others. Hermoine is brainy, Harry is emotional, Ron takes other people into account (learned that from being in a big family).

My wife works for a doctor who has a photographic memory. I've seen him take a book and tell me what page what was said on it!! Amazing! I also seen him pick up a hammer and try to use it. I ran for my life!! It was quite scary.

Maybe that's why he doesn't do surgeries?! He knows what he doesn't know.....

DripPan



Kathryn Pottinger - Jul 13, 2004 3:06 am (#274 of 2486)
Socialization is an aspect of Ginny's personality that I think Hermione lacks. - Mrs Sirius, Ginny Weasley thread

Interpersonal relationships could be another weakness - drippan

I've seen loads of passing mentions on various threads about Hermione lacking in social skills (I hope that's the right way of putting it). I'm really interested in what people think about this because I don't think that is the case at all. True, she doesn't have lots of girl friends but isn't that because she doesn't want them? I get the impression that she would rather have a few close friendships (Harry, Ron, Ginny for example) than being part of a crowd of girls (such as Cho, Pansy etc.) If she had any real problems getting on with, for example, the other girls in her Gryffindor year I'm sure we would hear about it. I think she just doesn't spend much time with them out of choice. Do other people think she is socially lacking in some way?



Sir Tornado - Jul 13, 2004 5:45 am (#275 of 2486)
I double your views Kathryn.



Fawkes Forever - Jul 13, 2004 5:56 am (#276 of 2486)
Hermione certainly seems to know a lot more people in her year than Ron or Harry do. However that may be because she takes more classes than they do, so may be mixing in a larger circle of students.

I do think that she is quite insecure & thus over compensates for this with her 'bossy know it all' attitude. To me this screams "look I am a confident person... really I am"! Deep down her insecurities have made her quite shy on a social basis. For example, if we look at the scene were the DA have their first meeting in the Hogshead... Hermione appears quite nervous when she realises just how many students have turned up & that she now has to speak in front of all of them.

She uses this bossy persona as a cover up, to hide that she is shy. Unfortunately, her bossy know it all attitude has a tendancy to put people off from getting to know her better. Even Ron & Harry didn't have much time for her before the Troll incident, as thus she doesn't appear to have many friends outside of the trio. Ginny & herself appear quite close.... but that's a connection from Ron as well. Hermione is Rons friend, & has therefore spend time with Rons family... Being the only girls, Hermione & Ginny have spent a lot of time together by default... sharing a room & a tent & the like! From this the two girls have grown close, probably because Ginny has been able to see past the bossy know it all exterior & can see Hermione for the kind hearted, sweet person that she really is. I do wonder however, if Ginny wasn't Rons sister, would the two girls have become friends? Hermione doesn't appear to have much time for Lavender or Parvati, they seem like polar opposites to Hermione, but who's to say they don't have girly chats in their dorm

To say that Hermione is socially lacking might be a bit harsh, but on some occasions she does find it hard to relate to people. Luna Lovegood for example. Indeed sometimes, Hermione can come across as being quite rude to Luna... it could just be a case that she just doesn't get Luna, so appears slightly intollerant of Luna... which is a little out of character for Hermione if you ask me. She normally supports the underdog, the student others appear to pick on (Neville for example), & tries to help them, whether they want help or not However it could be argued that she is slightly jealous (consciously or subconciously), & a bit insecure, as Luna appears to be actively persuing a certain redheaded prefect, thus making her [Hermione] appear abrasive, but hey thats for another thread

If we look at situations were her self confidence is boosted, we begin to see a more relaxed & social Hermione. For example when Krum accompanied her to the ball. That was a huge boost to the old self confidence.... a world famous Quidditch player asked her out. At the beginning, she is nervous yes... but also appears quite relaxed chatting to Krum during the meal, she even stays on to dance after the first song has ended. Nevertheless, this new found self confidence is quite brittle, when Ron 'suggests' that Krum only asked her out to spy on Harry, her insecurities flare up again & she takes it quite badly.

Her self confidence is growing .... much the same Ron & Harrys, especially so as their circle of friends has increased. So it should be interesting to see how this develops in the next two books.

Sorry for the long post... I've rambled on a bit



Chemyst - Jul 13, 2004 6:29 am (#277 of 2486)
Fawkes did such a great job of answering this while I was out busily searching for quotes, that I'm not even going to bother with my original response now. Basically, I was going to show that Hermione can analyze social situations well and understands relationships from a clinical viewpoint (as when she explains Cho's reactions to Harry & Ron,) but mostly she doesn't bother to put a lot of effort into anything that she hasn't written down in her Personal-Goals-Master-Plan-Organizer (or whatever is the wizard world equivalent of a PDA.)
If Crumple Horned Snorkacks become important either to survival or to getting a good grade, Hermione will be able to relate to Luna just fine.



Fawkes Forever - Jul 13, 2004 6:39 am (#278 of 2486)
Thanks Chemyst *blush*.

I'd like to see your original response... I'm afraid I couldn't back mine up with quotes as I don't have my books with me...

Talking of which.... I agree, analysis is one of Hermiones strong points... indeed she is good at analysing other peoples social interactions... but is unable to apply her good advice to her own social interactions ... however this is something not only Hermione is guilty of



drippan - Jul 13, 2004 6:57 am (#279 of 2486)
Edited by Denise P. Jul 13, 2004 10:39 am
I edited out an offensive term in this post. Please think before using a term that as offensive to us muggles as mudblood is to wizards. Denise P.

Hermione was socially inept from the get go. I could see her going around the train to Hogwarts in SS stuck up. As a matter of fact, the only person who likes her on the train, IMO, is Neville who would be acceptable of anybody of Hermione's knowledge (don't forget Neville feels weak as a Wizard).

We know what everyone else thinks of her by Ron's comment about nobody can stand her! I don't think Ron was her only partner from Sept 1 to Halloween when the comment was made. I'm quite sure that she has corrected other partners the same way she had corrected Ron. Also, Ron is quite aware of other peoples feelings and I don't think he would have said that if he knew Hermione was there. That being said, I will have to take Ron's words as being true.

I do have to agree with you about her being choosy who her friends are but you can also say the same of Harry and Ron. Example is that Harry is part of the Quidditch team but doesn't spend alot of "friendship" time with them. Ron hung out with his brothers and other classmates (I think Ron has the most friends out of the 3) when him and Harry seperated in GoF.

Hermione is different from a lot of girls at Hogwarts. She thinks high marks are more important than anything. She is not smitten with first meeting Harry or Viktor. I remember alot of the girls at Hogwarts falling for Harry and Viktor right away for no other reason than they are famous (Ginny was that way when first meeting Harry).

The only reason she can't get along with Luna is the same reason she can't get along with Pr. Trawlaney. Hermione cannot accept anything that is not black and white. She needs definite proof and not speculation. I'm trying to remember if Hermione has ever made a decision on gut instinct vice knowledge, but can't come up with one. I wonder what she is going to think when she finds out about Trawlaney prophecy about Harry? Is she going to believe it or blow it off as another one of Trawlaney's predictions?

She is growing out of her way of thinking though. I can't remember if it was in GoF or OotP but she states that it is more important to do something else besides school work!!! What a shocker!!! This proves that she is looking outside her own little world of books and high marks.

Hermione, just like Ron and Harry, is growing up. She is finally realizing that the books that she is reading are written from the "past" but it is the "present" and "future" that makes a difference.

BTW, Hermione is the one character I can relate to the most. She reminds me of my wife alot. OCD to the max! She needs to learn to relax.....



Steve Newton - Jul 13, 2004 7:02 am (#280 of 2486)
In the meeting at with Rita Skeeter in OOTP Hermione cuts off Rita's question about her and Harry's relationship. She says, sorry can't quote, that she doesn't want Rita to write anything about this.

What bothers me about this is that she had encouraged Harry to bring Cho to the interview.

I figure that either she wanted to throw Rita off the track or she knew that Harry was going down in flames.

Would this make her cold and calculating?



Catherine - Jul 13, 2004 8:30 am (#281 of 2486)
Edited by Denise P. Jul 13, 2004 10:37 am
Drippan,

I do not think that Hermione was, as you termed it, socially inept even in SS. I think when we first meet her on the Hogwarts Express in SS, she is a stickler for rules, and more than a little overbearing, but she does have a kind heart. She attempts to help Neville find his toad Trevor. No one else bothers.

A line was edited out of the above since it referred to something in another post that had been removed, leaving this comment an orphan. Denise P.

Your question, " I wonder what she is going to think when she finds out about Trawlaney prophecy about Harry? Is she going to believe it or blow it off as another one of Trawlaney's predictions? " has already been mostly answered in OoP. Hermione now believes that prophecies do exist, "After we've just found out that there are real prophecies?" (OoP, p. 849, Scholastic). Hermione believes in Dumbledore, and I think that if she knew that Dumbledore witnessed Trelawney's predicition personally, then she would be accepting of its veracity.

I disagree with your statement that she can't get along with Luna. I think that Hermione has come a long way since the train ride at the beginning of OoP. She seemed to coexist quite peacefully with Luna in the Three Broomsticks while blackmailing Rita into writing Harry's story of Voldemort's return. She made an admirable effort in the hospital wing when Luna announced that the profits from selling the Quibbler article were going toward a Snorkack expedition by just saying, "That sounds lovely" (OoP, p. 848, Scholastic).



mike miller - Jul 13, 2004 9:38 am (#282 of 2486)
I totally agree with Fawkes! Take 10 points.

Hermione has grow through the books, just as all of the characters have. I think the possible issues with Luna are two fold. First, Luna is not grounded in facts and seems to be "out of focus" with reality as Hermione sees it. I think Hermione is somewhat getting over this aspect of Luna's personality. Second, as was so astutely pointed out by Fawkes, Luna is interested in Ron. This interest is particularly apparent early in our introduction to Luna.

As far as what Hermione's career after leaving Hogwarts, she will learn the true meaning of advocacy through her efforts with S.P.E.W. After uncovering the mystery behind the house elves enslavement and creating a new alliance where choice is allowed for house elves, Hermione will start the wizard A.C.L.U. (All Creatures Liberation Union).



Hollywand - Jul 13, 2004 10:03 am (#283 of 2486)
Edited by Denise P. Jul 13, 2004 10:38 am
Rowling may have initially set up Hermione as a character with friction, but Harry and Ron have deeply bonded with her, trust her with their lives and defend her valiantly when the chips are down. If I were Hermione, I would much prefer solving mysteries, riding Hippogriffs and hanging with Hagrid to hanging out with the Veelas talking about my fingernail polish. It's interesting to note how much Hermione, as a well-educated and outspoken young woman is the subject of scorn from so many readers, as Rowling herself has remarked in interviews. Scary.

A line was edited out of the above post since what it was referring to was removed. Denise P.



MrsGump - Jul 13, 2004 10:51 am (#284 of 2486)
Hermione from the beginning of SS/PS is a bit different from the real Hermione.

I'd assume that she was very bright at her Muggle school before she got her letter. Now, she's being sent away (although excited about it) to a boarding school, full of "real". full blood wizards, and she's a Muggle with no real world experience.

This would be why she reads "Hogwarts: A History" plus all of her spell books before she gets to the train. She wants to prove herself just as capable and just as worthy as the other students. She wants to please the teachers (let's face it, we do teach them young that teachers like students who read ahead, answers questions, perform tasks as expected, etc, etc). Hermione is in a completely different world, wants people to like her, and so tries to be the best at everything.

After overhearing Ron, I'm sure she realized it wasn't working on the other students. And after the troll, you see a change in hermione that continues through the rest of the books. So I'd say she started out not really socially adept (and neither is Harry from lack of experience) but has gotten much better at understanding others than Harry has over the past 5 years at Hogwarts.

Edit: I also fell a connection to Hermione, because she reminds me alot of myself. I can see her heart is in the right place when she helping Neville or giving out information, she just doesn't see how others preceive her.



drippan - Jul 13, 2004 12:50 pm (#285 of 2486)
Hollywand, "It's interesting to note how much Hermione, as a well-educated and outspoken young woman is the subject of scorn from so many readers, as Rowling herself has remarked in interviews."

I don't know if it's just aimed at Hermione. We can find faults with Ron, Harry, DD, Luna, Ginny, Percy, LV, Wormtail, Luna........um, I think we can scorn everyone in the books.

I think Hermione might get scorned on the most because she is the only main female lead in each and every book! This puts her as a target to every female reader who wants to be Hermione but not act like her.

What's that old saying "There is no wraith like a woman's scorn".

I wondering what it would have been like if Ron was the know it all and Hermione was the crack up? People would still find fault with both of them.



Catherine - Jul 13, 2004 1:17 pm (#286 of 2486)
"I think Hermione might get scorned on the most because she is the only main female lead in each and every book! This puts her as a target to every female reader who wants to be Hermione but not act like her."--Drippan

I'm not sure that I agree with Drippan's explanations as to why Hermione is often a scorned character. I don't think that female readers are solely responsible for any scorn heaped upon Hermione, or that female readers target Hermione because they harbor some sort of fantasy about being Hermione.

EDIT: Did you mean to use the quote by William Congreve "Heaven has no rage like love to hatred turned, Nor hell a fury like a woman scorned."? If so, I'm not sure how it applies to your post about female readers and their response to Hermione.



Sir Tornado - Jul 13, 2004 1:29 pm (#287 of 2486)
I think readers target Hermione because she er, takes some fun out of Harry and Ron's life (I don't think that's true) by reprimanding them about breaking rules. Let's face it, Hermione does act like a teacher most of the time. Well, now most of us don't like students who act like teachers do we? Still, Hermione's my favourite character. I always hope I was as sincere as she is.



haymoni - Jul 13, 2004 1:33 pm (#288 of 2486)
What's annoying is that she is often right and Ron & Harry know it.

She was right about the Firebolt. She was right about Sirius trying to live through Harry. She was right about Harry's "saving people" thing. She's right about studying for tests and being prepared and justice for house elves.

It's annoying!



Sir Tornado - Jul 13, 2004 1:54 pm (#289 of 2486)
Yes, but I still like her. She reminds me of... me! Well, ok, I'm not as sincere as she is and don't mind breaking rules if I feel they are worth it but apart from that I'm just like Hermione.



Hollywand - Jul 13, 2004 2:14 pm (#290 of 2486)
I think, drippan, the quote is "wrath" and not "wraith". I realize there are whole threads created by people who wish death and destruction on Harry and Ron and practically every other character in the book. Ron and Harry have come to rely on and have deep affection for Hermione, and they all do things to irritate each other, it makes the characters richer. I admire Hermione's willingness to educate herself, and her enthusiasm for good ethics, and her willingness to see that one can't always blindly follow the rules. I'm just expressing a disagreement with the "Little Miss Perfect" charge in principle, as it often shames young gifted women to be less than they are.



Sir Tornado - Jul 13, 2004 2:23 pm (#291 of 2486)
That's not Hermione's fault and that should not be used as a cover for jealousy and an excuse for subjecting Hermione to scorn of so many people.



haymoni - Jul 13, 2004 5:57 pm (#292 of 2486)
Oh, don't get me wrong - I love Hermione.

I meant it would be annoying to Harry & Ron.

I thought it was really big of her to ask Harry to teach them DADA. She could have tried it herself - especially when she saw all the books in the Room of Requirement, but she deferred to him.

I'm really curious to see what she will be like in Book 6.



Chemyst - Jul 13, 2004 7:24 pm (#293 of 2486)
Catherine, three years after William Congreve wrote The Mourning Bride with the famous woman scorned quote, he wrote "A little disdain is not amiss; a little scorn is alluring." The Way of the World (1700). Maybe that's why we love Hermione so much!

Thank God for search engines!



Sir Tornado - Jul 13, 2004 8:05 pm (#294 of 2486)
I thought it was really big of her to ask Harry to teach them DADA. She could have tried it herself - especially when she saw all the books in the Room of Requirement, but she deferred to him. --haymoni.

Actually I quite liked it when she asked Harry to teach DADA. She gave him confidence for doing so, and indirectly for fighting Voldemort. She, also, for the first time acknowledged that somebody was better than her in an acadamical field, although she did it grudgingly.

She could have tried it herself - especially when she saw all the books in the Room of Requirement, but she deferred to him. --haymoni

Yeah, but well, books can teach you only spell, curses and hexes, but they can't teach you how to fight Lord Voldemort. I was pleased here, to see that Hermione has finally accepted that books aren't everything. Actually, she starts doing so in PS, but it is most telling in OotP. Still, as they say, "old habits die hard", and Hermione gets all excited when she sees the books in Room of Requirement.

Also, had the DA members had agreed to learn defence from Harry and not Hermione. They wouldn't've liked a change of plans at the last moment would they? Hermione deciding to teach would've may be made Harry a bit glad, but his self-confidence would've been hit badly. NO, I don't think Hermione did anything wrong regarding the D.A.

I'm really curious to see what she will be like in Book 6. --haymoni.

Hmm, I think she'll be more understanding towards Harry and stop nagging him a bit when it comes to paying attention in History of Magic classes. Also, I expect her to find a way in summer to control Harry's now frequent outbursts. She may learn Occulmency/Legimens, we never know. After finding out about the Prophecy, I expect her to be a lot more accepting towards Luna and Trelawney. Well, apart from that, yeah, she might start hating Kreacher bit and it's about time she gets into a fight with someone-- maybe Malfoy. I'd love to see him become a ferret and bounce along the Entrance hall once again. *sighs* No one likes the bad guy.



Catherine - Jul 14, 2004 9:18 am (#295 of 2486)
Phelim wrote this about Hermione on the Luna thread: "On the Luna/Hermione issue - as people have mentioned we know that Hermione was in the thick of the battle. This is probably a sign of her hot headedness. But as to why Luna survived longest - they did not want to take Harry out because of his importance re the prophecy, but as Luna's father is the editor of the Quibbler did the Death Eaters decide Luna was too silly to think about. Hermione on the other hand has non-wizard parents and appeared to be threat. Put simply I guess the Death Eaters dismissed Luna as a harmless eccentric while Hermione rushed in head first without thinking. "

I disagree that Hermione is a "hot head" who rushed in "without thinking." Of all the students who went to the MoM that night, I see Hermione as the most logical, most restrained, and the most clear-headed.

With the exception of Lucius Malfoy, I also don't think many of the Death Eaters even knew who Hermione was, or that any of them would necessarily know Luna by sight.



Eponine - Jul 14, 2004 10:37 am (#296 of 2486)
I think that if the DE's had known what Hermione was, a muggle-born, they may have been a little harder on her in the battle just for the fun of it.



Hollywand - Jul 14, 2004 11:26 am (#297 of 2486)
Gryffindors are known, above all, for their courage. Hermione demonstrated in the battle with the Death Eaters that the Sorting Hat was not wrong in placing her in Gryffindor.



Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 15, 2004 7:19 am (#298 of 2486)
Catherine - just popped over to the Hermione thread. Trust a psychologist (which I am) Hermione comes across as hot-headed. Here's my explaination. While Hermione is intelligent, and appears to be trustworthy she also has very low self-esteem. This is something that JKR has actually pointed to in her comments when interviewed. As Hermione relies on intelligence to get her through then her biggest fear is failure. This showed itself in the Boggart who turned into McGonnagel. In her efforts to impress through her knowledge and ability, Hermione does not stop to think about the consequences. Her self esteem is just as low as Ron's but where Ron hides his with jokes Hermione hides behind books. This could be a major issue in later books through her conversations with Krum. In an effort to show her ability Hermione could give something away. Look at how Hermione shows off through the first three books - in her desperation to be accepted she pushes people away and actually isolates herself more.

Hermione's lack of self confidence could actually come from the wierd things that happened when she was a child. This would isolate her as "odd" and give children a reason to bully her, and issue made worse by her intellignece. To compensate Hermione relies on her book knowledge and goes in where she is unable. This would make her actually quite week in the face of adversity. She has been classified as the "cleverest wizard". This does not make her sensible or powerful.

The interest from Krum has probably given her a confidence boost. As did the fact she became prefect. This though may actually bring out the worst in Hermione not the best.

One other point - Draco versus Hermione. I'm sure there is going to be a conflict over this. But how did Draco know Hermione's exam results?



Catherine - Jul 15, 2004 8:09 am (#299 of 2486)
Phelim,

I don't disagree that Hermione fears failure, or that she over-compensates at times. But I do disagree with your statement that "In an effort to show her ability Hermione could give something away."

I think the evidence that we have seen from the novels thus far contradicts this. Hermione showed in PoA that no matter how stessed she felt, she did not betray a secret. She showed enormous strength of character to withstand Ron's constant questions, and her own fatigue. She could have impressed her fellow students with her deductions about Lupin, but she kept her silence instead. She could have bragged about how she was doing the near impossible with her lessons and the Time-Turner, but she never did. Prudence and promises, and loyalty outweighed any desire to show off.

I respect your position as a psychologist, but I disagree that Hermione is hot-headed. The closest she comes is when she slaps Malfoy in PoA and pulls her wand on him, but then she decides not to jinx him. I don't think she is any different from the Weasleys or Harry when the Slytherins bait them into a physical confrontation. In general, Hermione has shown herself resistant to baiting, and she tells Harry many to ignore the teasing in GoF, as she herself does.

We'll have to disagree about Hermione's "hot-headedness."



Wheezy - Jul 15, 2004 8:51 am (#300 of 2486)
A point that should be taken into account about Hermione's hot-headedness comes through in the POA confrontation with Malfoy. Although she slaps him, she does not curse him. This is an important thing when we compare her actions to those of Ron and Harry. Whenever the boys get into an conflict with Malfoy, they usually resort to their wands. I think that it's significant that Hermione does not.

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Hollywand - Jul 15, 2004 9:23 am (#301 of 2486)
Phelim, your analysis as a psychologist could be read as a parody. Psychologists are not above reproach. I disagree with your analysis of Hermione's character. No matter how many successes the muggle-born Hermione pulls off in this very challenging wizarding world, one could interpret them as failures, but I doubt that this is Rowling's intent for that character.



Sir Tornado - Jul 15, 2004 12:54 pm (#302 of 2486)
Phelim, just one slap, and you label Hermione as Hot-Headed? Well, in that case, Ron would be an active volcano.



Chemyst - Jul 15, 2004 1:12 pm (#303 of 2486)
Phelim, I think I need to know your definition of "hot-headed" because somewhere on the slide of meaning from impetuous to impulsive to quick-triggered to rash to irritable to angry-beyond-reason -- somewhere along the way-- we're just not communicating.



total hatred - Jul 15, 2004 9:03 pm (#304 of 2486)
I think Hermione is ruled by emotion that time. She was fighting like a rabid animal. I believe that she was really desperate at that time. Either saving her own life or saving Harry no matter the cost



Sir Tornado - Jul 16, 2004 12:38 am (#305 of 2486)
Total hatred, for once, I have to disagree with you. Hermione is the most cool minded of the trio and one of the last person to be ruled by her emotions. We've seen that happen only once or may be twice in 2000 pages. Give the girl a break.



Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 16, 2004 6:58 am (#306 of 2486)
Oh I have put the cat among the pixies haven't I.

Catherine, Hollywand - I also work with teenagers. I'm not just speaking as a psychologist, I'm speaking as someone who deals with them daily. I am applying what I see as a youth worker with psychological training who is training as a counsellor to work with adolescents, to Hermione AND Ron.

Why didn't Hermione let slip about the Time Turner? Think about what she said just after they discovered fang. That being expelled was worse than death. She didn't let slip about the Time Turner because to do so would have jepordised her position at Hogwarts. This would have been failure.

Behind the logic Hermione is, I believe, ruled by the emotion fear. At times the veil slips and she become impetuous and even impulsive. These are the situations when her book knowledge are not of any use. Her stepping aside concerning Dumbledore's Army must have been hard because she realised that Harry had more experience of the subject. But this was a similar situation to the flying lessons and divination. Ron only appears more hot headed because he does not have the safety net of book learning.

Having said this, the incident at the Ministry may be the making of Hermione. Notice the change in attitude towards prophecy. She is beginning to learn that there is more than books to being a powerful wizard and should start to develop depth to go with the width of her abilities. As she starts to trust herself and her abilities - not just her knowledge - then she will become someone to fear. She has the ability there, she could do simple spells before even getting on the train (but why didn't she get in trouble with the Ministry?) she just lacks the self-confidence to go deeper.

Now to sit back and watch people shout at me.

edit - I will write something up giving my psychological profile of Harry, Ron, and Hermione. I may also do Ginny, Neville and the twins. It will be posted as fan fiction and give a fuller understanding of where I am coming from on this.



Catherine - Jul 16, 2004 7:15 am (#307 of 2486)
Phelim writes about Hermione, "She is beginning to learn that there is more than books to being a powerful wizard "

Actually, I think Hermione realizes this much earlier than you suggest, as she tells Harry in SS/PS, "Books! And cleverness! There are more important things--friendship and bravery and --oh Harry--be careful!" (p 287, Scholastic hardback).

I really do not see Hermione being ruled by emotions or being impulsive or impetuous. She is the adolescent voice of caution throughout the series thus far! JKR has written Hermione to be an authority in the novels. I disagree with your interpretation of Hermione's motives. I think your interpretation of Hermione is not supported by the evidence in the novels, and I think that your interpretation is at odds with JKR's intentions.



Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 16, 2004 7:21 am (#308 of 2486)
Catherine - wait until you read my report!!!!

Also, I will not be posting anything more about the psychology of Hermione or the others until after I've written the report.



Catherine - Jul 8, 2004 8:35 pm (#309 of 2486)
I had not read your edit, Phelim, when I posted my last post, but I will say that it would take a lot for me to change my mind about your interpretations of Hermione, but give me a heads up when you write your report and I will certainly see if you make your case then.



Hollywand - Jul 16, 2004 7:46 am (#310 of 2486)
I agree with Catherine's remarks, Phelim, they are very well argued. I would also add that fanfiction cannot be confused with the Rowling texts. Your initial post contained quite a bit of conjecture about Hermione's abused childhood, which Rowling has indicated nothing of the sort in the stories. If Rowling had intended to imply an abuse history for Hermione, she certainly would have included it in the character, as she has for Harry, Snape and Voldemort.



Weeny Owl - Jul 16, 2004 11:25 am (#311 of 2486)
Phelim:

If you're planning to write fanfiction, please give us a link to where we can read it because it can't be posted here, although it can be posted on the forum's fanfiction site.

I don't think Hermione is ruled by fear. Of course there will be things in a new world that scare her or make her unsure of herself, but overall Hermione is the logical and practical member of the trio. She does have insecurities, but her decisions are usually based on common sense and logic.

JKR is the only one who knows about Hermione's childhood, and until we read more about it, there's really no way of writing up a psychological profile of her or any other character. There are too many unknown factors.

Working with teenagers doesn't really help either because these kids are in a unique situation. Hermione is a witch. She doesn't spend her time (at least not her Hogwarts time) going to the mall, listening to CDs, watching TV, cruising around with friends in a car, or the myriad other things teens in our society do.

What Catherine said, "She is the adolescent voice of caution throughout the series thus far! JKR has written Hermione to be an authority in the novels," is much more in line with Hermione's character in the books.



Sir Tornado - Jul 16, 2004 12:04 pm (#312 of 2486)
Phelim, just drop me the link when you finish it.



drippan - Jul 16, 2004 6:57 pm (#313 of 2486)
Weeny Owl, "JKR is the only one who knows about Hermione's childhood, and until we read more about it, there's really no way of writing up a psychological profile of her or any other character. There are too many unknown factors."

I don't know about that. We know quite a bit about each character. We see Ron's home life at the Burrow, Sirius when he lived in a cave in GoF and his life at Grimmald Place, and Neville on his vacation.

Hermione is the child of two dentists. Both her and her parents were surprised that she got accepted to Hogwarts (boy, would I like to see what that letter said) and that they accept her as a witch.

This does not appear to be a child who is not accepted for who or what she is by a parent. As a matter of fact, it sounds like they support her and respect her decisions. Why else would they let a 15 year old stay for X-mas vice forcing her to go skiing in OotP?

A prime example of this is Hermione wanting her teeth fixed. Her parents didn't want her to use magic to correct her teeth and she respected them enough not to use it. But (and I can see this from my own teenagers) that she went around the system by not telling Madame Pomfrey how big her teeth were before the spell. Hey, my kids tried anything at that age group to make it look like they were innocent! Hermione was innocent in a way and her parents obviously didn't object to her teeth being fixed.

She's definitely was not abused as a child and there is no proof but a loving supportive family. I think she is a very intelligent teenager doing the typical teenager thing except she is a very knowledgeable witch.

DripPan



Courtney22 - Jul 16, 2004 7:08 pm (#314 of 2486)
"I think she is a very intelligent teenager doing the typical teenager thing except she is a very knowledgeable witch."---Drip Pan

I agree completely even your class valedictorian or SCA President, or any other role model type in school has their adolescent moments of hotheadedness or any other over emotional reaction. Every person no matter their age has those moments. That doesn't make someone over emotional or ruled by their emotions though. I don't even think Ron is that hot headed, he is normally very laid back but in dramatic situations he tends to overreact.



Sir Tornado - Jul 16, 2004 8:26 pm (#315 of 2486)
I 'gree with DripPan.



Lars Smedberg - Jul 17, 2004 3:14 am (#316 of 2486)
I don't think you could say that Hermione was ABUSED as a child, but - if my theories are correct - she might have been a little neglected...



drippan - Jul 17, 2004 4:30 am (#317 of 2486)
Lars Smedberg, "- if my theories are correct - she might have been a little neglected..."

Still don't bite on that.....

Neglected means that her parents ignore her (not feeding her, not hugging her, feeling no emotions). Anybody can say they were neglected, especially Harry by his Aunt, Uncle and cousin.

I can see maybe where her parents don't understand about her new world. They might feel a little apprehisive because they don't know about the wizarding world (we can see this in CoS when they are in Diagon Alley) but they don't neglect to do anything with or for their daughter.

Another thing that refutes this is the Christmas holidays. In SS/PS she goes home for Christmas and in OotP, her folks invite her to go skiing with them. They could have said, "Stay at school" but they didn't.

I think Hermione does keep alot from her parents about what happens in the Wizarding World. They would flip out if they even knew half the stuff that she's done! This is just ignorance on their part and not a sign of neglect. BTW, I don't think the school keeps the parents informed about the kids activities to well. I can't see Uncle Vernon/Aunt Petunia getting a letter of what Harry has been up too.

I would like to know your thoughts on what type of neglect you are talking about though. I'm always opened minded when it comes to topics but would like some proof.....

It's funny that of all the occupations Hermione's parents can have, JKR made them both dentists. Any thoughts on this?

DripPan



Sir Tornado - Jul 17, 2004 5:06 am (#318 of 2486)
Sure Drip. Well, Dentists. Yes. Dentists are the most lovable people on the planet. They are kind, understand, and can't hurt a fly. (unless they've got a drill in their hands) They are very gentle and have lets say the most delicate touches. Yes, they're quite clever; and very responsible people. They think carefully before acting. Majority of the Dentists I know (along with other Doctors) want their Children to follow their footsteps. 'course, you have to be very intelligent, resourcefull and kind to be a good doctor. Generally Doctors value education and respect school. I think all the characteristics I've mentioned have been transfered into Hermione. Oh, yes, one more... All the Dentists' children have got cleen teeth and good Oral Hygiene.

P.S= I'm telling this from my personal expirience. I've visited dentists far more time than an average 15-year old has, and that's the reason why I guess I'm sot scared of them. BTW, they know they cause certain amount of pain to their patients and try to make up for it by being nicer to other people. My dentist even stops to chat with me if I meet him in park or somewhere else.



Marcus Aurelius Ravenclaw - Jul 17, 2004 9:28 am (#319 of 2486)
Regarding Hermiones childhood; Phelim was talking about 'weird' things happening to her... as in manifestations of magical power like Harry had. How else would Hogwarts know she was a witch?

And about hot-headedness... Hermione is probably the character I am most like (though I'm a boy) and I am very cautious and reserved (I'd like to think intelligent too). With my friends, I'm always the one worried about getting hurt or into trouble. If I am under stress, say confronted by someone, I usually become quieter and hold back even more, but after a while I can blow up and become very rash indeed. Hermione may be the same way.



Catherine - Jul 17, 2004 9:56 am (#320 of 2486)
Marcus Aurelius Ravenclaw wrote, "How else would Hogwarts know she was a witch?"

JKR has said that there is a magic quill that detects the birth of wizard children and puts their names down to receive letters from Hogwarts.



Marcus Aurelius Ravenclaw - Jul 17, 2004 10:18 am (#321 of 2486)
Oh. Thanks. But she still was probably making wierd things happen. Undoubtedly, in fact.



Weeny Owl - Jul 17, 2004 10:29 am (#322 of 2486)
Weeny Owl, "JKR is the only one who knows about Hermione's childhood, and until we read more about it, there's really no way of writing up a psychological profile of her or any other character. There are too many unknown factors."

drippan, "I don't know about that. We know quite a bit about each character. We see Ron's home life at the Burrow, Sirius when he lived in a cave in GoF and his life at Grimmald Place, and Neville on his vacation."

Based on what we know, some conclusions can be made about Ron, Sirius, Neville, Harry, and perhaps others, but I still can't see a true psychological profile being possible. We can tell some basic characteristics about many of the people, but with JKR's sneakiness, there's no way of knowing for sure until she reveals more.

Throughout GoF, for instance, we thought Mad-Eye was a good guy. His behavior was just what a caring, yet somewhat gruff, teacher's behavior should be.

With Hermione, we know absolutely nothing about her home life. Her parents are dentists, they take her on trips, they went with her to Diagon Alley, they gave her enough money to get herself a birthday present (Crookshanks), she mentioned that they'd like Toothflossing Stringmints, but what does all of that really say?

To me it says they're kind, loving, understanding parents who genuinely want their daughter to be happy. To others it says something different.



Sir Tornado - Jul 17, 2004 11:09 am (#323 of 2486)
I agree with you Weeny.



MrsGump - Jul 17, 2004 5:51 pm (#324 of 2486)
The problem with trying to make any kind of psychological profile for anyone in the books is that we see them all through Harry's eyes.

Everything they say or do is somewhat tainted by Harry's point of view. If the book says someone was standing there nervously, it's because Harry thinks they're nervous. Does that make sense? We don't see/ hear anyone elses inner feelings or thoughts and Harry rarely asks for them.



Chemyst - Jul 17, 2004 6:29 pm (#325 of 2486)
MrsGump, that is particularly true for characters like Snape who Harry so often misinterprets, but even with our Harry-filtered perception of Hermione, we can still draw some conclusions:



Hermione is a hot head?

Codswallop, I say. If Hermione were truly a hot-head, she would have shown it on Halloween night of her second year. Honor bound to attend the Deathday party, she had just been through a trying evening of awkward social encounters. To cold, tired, hungry and disgruntled, we add the emotion of bewilderment at Harry's shout of, "He's going to kill someone!" and his mad dash up the staircase. It was Hermione who first saw the lettering on the wall announcing the opening of the chamber. And then the trio made the grisly discovery of Mrs. Norris dangling from the torch. It is at this point that Draco, flushed and grinning, shouts "You'll be next, Mudbloods!" A true hot-head who was coming off an evening like Hermione's would have been all over that boy.

But as chapter nine opens, it is Argus Filch, not Hermione who is losing it. In fact, we have no record of Hermione having any reaction beyond plain silence until Snape asks the trio why they were not at the feast. In the days that follow, Hermione is dull, plodding, and methodical. "It was quite usual for Hermione to spend a lot of time reading, but she was now doing almost nothing else. Nor could Harry and Ron get much response from her when they asked what she was up to, and not until the following Wednesday did they find out." (CS page 146, Scholastic pb)What they found, of course, was that she'd been searching every possible book in the library to find out more about the secret chamber. This is not a portrait of a hot-head.

Harry and Ron think she looks irritable when her search reaches a dead end, but the text clearly tells us that she is more irritated with herself for not packing her personal copy of Hogwarts: A History than she is at the students ahead of her on the book reserve list. She does refuse to help Ron with his essay when he pesters her, but she has good reason-- he had ten days to work on it. Even when she is justifiably annoyed she doesn't throw a hot-headed hissy-fit. A true hot-head would have had stronger reactions on both occasions. With logic and perseverance she moves on to "Plan B" and asks Professor Binns about the history of the chamber. That is a tactic a true hot-head would be hard-pressed to employ.



Sir Tornado - Jul 18, 2004 3:53 am (#326 of 2486)
I agree with Chemyst.



Stringer - Jul 18, 2004 7:45 pm (#327 of 2486)
I found some interesting information-probably not related to Hermione, but maybe... I was searching for Ancient doorways, trying to see if I could find anything about the arch in the DOM. I found this:

NEW GRANGE ENTRANCE STONE Time c. 3000 BC Location Neolithic Culture, New Grange, Ireland

The Entrance Stone (10 feet long, 4 feet high, weighing about 5 tons) guards the entrance to a beautiful and enigmatic chambered cairn that today is called New Grange. The Stone protected a 62 foot long passage into the mound which ends in a majestic cruciform chamber beneath a 20 foot high corbelled ceiling. For centuries it was believed that New Grange concealed the entrance to the realm of the gods the patriarchal god Dada, supernatural beings known as Tuatha de Danann, and Oenghus, the love god. Today many scholars believe that New Grange was built as a celebration of time and light, birth and rebirth, both of people and seasons.

I think it mentions a lot of Hermione's qualities. MAYBE that is where the name Granger came from.



Hollywand - Jul 18, 2004 8:04 pm (#328 of 2486)
Great reference, Stringer. I also like the possible reference to "grangerizing" a book, meaning that the text is a composite of many other books, as James Granger's "Biographical History of England". Possibly Rowling's sly reference to Hermione as herself constructing the Potter series from many other sources. :-)



Luke E.A. Lockhart - Jul 18, 2004 8:15 pm (#329 of 2486)
Why would "Granger" neccesarily mean anything? I know that some names have meaning, but I know someone named Granger in real life, and most of the names that have meaning (like Riddle or Dumbledore) are either invented, or foreign language composites.



Sir Tornado - Jul 18, 2004 8:35 pm (#330 of 2486)
Or, maybe, JKR knew someone with the name Granger and liked the name. Or may be it's like Longbottom, a real name but doesn't really mean anything on the story. It's also mentioned on JKR's site that Hermione's surname was "Puckle" but later discarded it in favour of Granger. Good thing she did there. Otherwise, me might've been talking about a "Hermione Puckle" right now. "Puckle", "Puckle", Hey, it does seem cute doesn't it?



Hollywand - Jul 18, 2004 9:41 pm (#331 of 2486)
Luke, your question is fair. Obviously, I think most of us try to look into every possibile meaning for our own enjoyment, and to get the maximum pleasure from what we find to be a great story. It's great to be able to work as a group devoted to the story.

You mention, for example, that you know a real life individual named "Granger". Well, this name also sources from "farmer", so maybe that person's family ancestry were farm related.

I just had a great time learning about New Grange from Stringer's reference. The great thing about getting lost on Rowling's possible references is that you will probably learn something.

I had the pleasure of having a British archeologist take me to some ancient burial sites while visiting England. Once I knew what I was looking for, they became obvious all over the countryside when previously I had not even noticed them. It was wonderful.



Sir Tornado - Jul 19, 2004 3:03 am (#332 of 2486)
I agree with Hollywand.



Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 19, 2004 7:36 am (#333 of 2486)
I will post the fan fiction link when it is written. But as I said, wait until you read it (it should be on the Lexicon fan fiction site). It may shake some of your ideas about Hermione and actually all of the gang - including Percy. I do hope when you read it that it will affect the way you look at the characters.

But I didn't say that Hermione was abused. Also, and I will just leave this comment at this, ask any psychologist, social worker etc and there are various ways of abuse. Even spoiling a child can be seen by some as abuse.



drippan - Jul 19, 2004 5:18 pm (#334 of 2486)
Phelim Mcintyre, "Even spoiling a child can be seen by some as abuse."

Oh, no! Your saying my hero, Dudley Wudley, is abused!

I agree with you 1000%.

DripPan



S.E. Jones - Jul 19, 2004 5:44 pm (#335 of 2486)
JKR has even said that Dudley is abused as badley as Harry is, just in a different way, because he is being so inappropriately prepared for life. However, I didn't see anything in Phelim's comments about abuse. Did I miss them? I only saw Lars pointing to neglect....



Emiko - Jul 20, 2004 1:30 pm (#336 of 2486)
Okay, somehow, I find it very hard to believe that Hermione is neglected. It seems to me that she's pushing her parents away, because she's "ready to grow up" (is that a form of abuse and neglect?) Since I'm Hermione's age, when she decides to skip skiing and hang out with Harry and Ron, and try to help the order, it seems perfectly normal, and almost lucky that her parents will let her. Maybe it's not the best thing for them, but most teenagers shove away from their parents (and I read in some book, no idea what it's called, that girls tend to shove harder than boys) in their quest for "independence". And Hermione, as keyed up on independence as she is, would certainly not see anything wrong in abandoning her parents for her friends. But, since I'm a teenager myself, maybe I'm just biased.



Catherine - Jul 20, 2004 2:21 pm (#337 of 2486)
Emiko,

You are correct. We have seen no evidence at all that Hermione has ever been abused by her parents!

Hermione belongs to a different world than her parents, and it seems normal to me that she would need to pull away from them somewhat.



Susurro Notities - Jul 20, 2004 7:34 pm (#338 of 2486)
Children who are gifted athletes often separate from family to train year round. Their parents are not suspected of abuse quite the contrary. They are viewed as trying to give these children every opportunity to excel. Hermione has a gift and her enlightened parents are sacrificing their time with her so that she might fulfill her potential.



Lily Potter - Jul 20, 2004 10:21 pm (#339 of 2486)
Susurro, I agree with that. Hermione's small interactions with her parents have shown nothing to disagree with that. I think her parents are very supportive of her. I'm sure they're proud. She wants to excel, not to pull away. It just happens that she has some very strong loyalties at school, life or death matters, and it's more important for her to be at school with her friends. I don't know to what extent she's told her parents about the tragic events from school, but I think they'd support her either way. Even though she came across as a stuck-up, goody-two shoes when she first arrived at Hogwarts, I think her true colours have come through. I think her parents have a part in who she is, and would understand her being away if something was this important.



Weeny Owl - Jul 20, 2004 11:03 pm (#340 of 2486)
What a beautiful way of phrasing that, Susurro. That's an excellent analogy.



Susurro Notities - Jul 20, 2004 11:29 pm (#341 of 2486)
Edited by Jul 20, 2004 11:30 pm
Thanks Weeny Owl.



mike miller - Jul 21, 2004 9:37 am (#342 of 2486)
As has been said so eloquently by Emiko, Susurro and Lily (Susan), Hermione is coming of age in a different world from her parents. The many challenges of growing up are taking place away from home and under a set of circumstances that are outside Hemione's parents frame of reference. I think they are being very supportive.

It is very possible that Mr. and Mrs. Weasley are in contact with Hermione's parents and have struck up quite a frienship. I think this is a good thing since they will become in-laws someday!



Emiko - Jul 23, 2004 9:08 pm (#343 of 2486)
Does anyone know the spell (or whatever) the death eater used on Hermione? Somehow, I feel that's an important spell, although, perhaps that question belongs in a different forum, I thought I'd ask here first.



Ff3girl - Jul 23, 2004 9:20 pm (#344 of 2486)
"But the Death Eater Hermione had just struck dumb made a sudden slashing movement with his wand from which flew a streak of what looked like purple flame." -pg 792 OotP Am. Ed.

Purple flame? I can't think of anything that matches that description... can anyone else remember?



Mark Evans - Jul 24, 2004 4:31 am (#345 of 2486)
hello everybody,

I just read the article about Harry and Hermione's evolving relationship. I had something I noticed in ootp about that topic. Would this be the place? I'm still new here.



drippan - Jul 24, 2004 4:40 am (#346 of 2486)
Hey Mark,

There's a thread under "Theories" called "'Ship-'Ship (Exploring Relationships)"......

DripPan

BTW, welcome!!



Mark Evans - Jul 24, 2004 4:50 am (#347 of 2486)
Thank You drippan.



Sir Tornado - Jul 24, 2004 12:14 pm (#348 of 2486)
Yeah Mark, I hope you are H/Hr.



Mark Evans - Jul 24, 2004 2:10 pm (#349 of 2486)
Am I ever, just take a look at my post for half blood prince.



S.E. Jones - Jul 24, 2004 9:10 pm (#350 of 2486)
I can't think of any spell that uses purple flame. However, I thought we'd seen evidence of other killing curses besides The Killing Curse. So, maybe this was a killing curse of some kind. Maybe it kills by causing intense internal damage (that seems to be what happened to Hermione).

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tracie1976 - Jul 24, 2004 9:17 pm (#351 of 2486)
This may be a little off topic but purple, I've noticed, represents mysterious things. We do not know what curse was thrown at Hermione and we really don't know what damage was done to Hermione besides knocking her out. Plus when we first meet Tonks, she has purple hair until she changes it to pink when she just starts talking away about her family.



Paulus Maximus - Jul 24, 2004 11:42 pm (#352 of 2486)
We do know that whatever damage was done to Hermione required her to take 10 different potions a day...

In other words, it must have been some serious damage...



Ozymandias - Jul 25, 2004 12:24 am (#353 of 2486)
In Snape's potion logic puzzle in SS, Hermione goes through the purple flame door to go back the way she came and get Ron. I don't see how these two relate, but it's interesting that the only two purple flames we've seen are associated with Hermione.



Sir Tornado - Jul 25, 2004 3:34 am (#354 of 2486)
I think Ron is strangled by Purple robes at GP12 in OotP.



Emiko - Jul 25, 2004 7:36 pm (#355 of 2486)
This may make sense to someone, although I don't really see the Hermione relevance in it. Purple, or Indigo, used to be a sign of royalty and/or importance merely because the dye was expensive. So, only really rich and important people ever got to wear purple.

WOW!!! New idea: Maybe stretching it a little, but red and blue make purple, right? (right.) well, red is the gryffindor color, and blue, the ravenclaw color. And Hermione fits in both houses, she's really smart etc. but is also really brave, noble, etc. maybe that's why purple seems to center around Hermione.



Sir Tornado - Jul 26, 2004 3:27 am (#356 of 2486)
Purple refers to royalty. 'Weasley is our King'. Harry sees Ron and Hermione wearing crowns in his dream. Ron is Pure-Blood. Hermione is a muggleborn. The name of the next book is Half-Blood Prince. I think I can almost read another Prophesy in the next book. Figure it out yet?



Paulus Maximus - Jul 26, 2004 6:18 am (#357 of 2486)
Hermione is pretty good at conjuring blue fire, if I remember correctly. And violet isn't that far from blue...



Hollywand - Jul 26, 2004 12:18 pm (#358 of 2486)
Ultra-violet light, in the natural world, is the most deadly. But I'm not sure the color correlation is consistent.



TomProffitt - Jul 26, 2004 1:00 pm (#359 of 2486)
Oh, my, Tornedo! That makes me go, "Hmmmmmmmm."

Can't say I agree, but I like it.



Ff3girl - Jul 27, 2004 1:20 am (#360 of 2486)
Ultra violet the most deadly? I think gamma rays are the furthest on the light spectrum, but uv rays will definitely give you a nasty sunburn. ^_~

It'a a good thing that DE wasn't able to speak (and pronounce the words of the spell), or else Hermione would've been a lot more hurt, right? Still, I almost have an evil little Voldie on my shoulder reminding me that we would know what it was if he had only been able to say it!



soldierboy - Jul 27, 2004 3:00 pm (#361 of 2486)
Come on Tornedo, you have a point but still man, ughh and when their at school!! I dont think JK is putting that in her books!



Hollywand - Jul 27, 2004 4:53 pm (#362 of 2486)
F3, true enough about gamma rays, but I was making an analogy to color associations, and as I said earlier, I'm not sure Rowling intends a spectral color correlation with spell colors.



Sir Tornado - Jul 27, 2004 10:49 pm (#363 of 2486)
I just said there might be a Prophecy in HbP. A prophecy which could be completed in say about 10 years. That would make Ron and Hermione targets of LV. Wow, I'm handing so much to R/Hr 'shippers.



Star Crossed - Jul 28, 2004 6:09 am (#364 of 2486)
You are, and soon, you'll be joining us.



Fawkes Forever - Jul 28, 2004 9:44 am (#365 of 2486)
Emm, a prophecy about a child of Ron & Hermione... hmmm, I don't see this happening.... well for one thing.. imagine what a revelation like that would do to Hermione & Ron! How do you think two sixteen year olds... who are struggling as it is to come to terms with their feelings, would take the news that that they'll have a baby together in [insert number here] years time... It would be a little bit embarrasing to say the least... I can't see JK doing that.

for example :
Ron upon hearing the news turned to Harry in a mix of disbelief & panic.
"Huh... you mean that me & her... I mean... she & I... me & ... that we... well... ummm... bloody hell". His eyes grew even bigger at the realisation of this & he looked quickly over at Hermione, before dropping his gaze to a piece of cracked floor tile. If possible his face had turned an even deeper shade of red.

Hermione, complete with matching red cheeks was standing in a complete state of shock, determinately avoiding Rons, & just about everyone elses eyes
"But.. that's just ..well... ridiculous!" She spluttered eventually, "Impossible ...there's no way... I mean... are you sure that you've got this right"?

Ron looked quite affronted at this, "What do you mean impossible...." he snapped & then cast a quick shifty look around the room, "I mean... yeah... what she said...."

They both looked down at their feet, afraid to catch anyones eye, and there was a long silence were no one even dared to move a muscle. Suddenly Hermione excused herself & practically bolted out of the room.

Sorry... couldn't resist.... *hums to herself & goes to book herself back into St Mungos*



Chris. - Jul 28, 2004 9:50 am (#366 of 2486)
Bravo, bravo!

If there is a third Prophecy made, I don't think it will refer to the offspring of Ron and Hermione. Maybe Harry's descendants?



Leila 2X4B - Jul 28, 2004 11:44 am (#367 of 2486)
Prongs it's Grimes...Grimey I love it. I think a third prophesy is in order. They are fun, but I think it will have to do with the next great threat. Isn't there always a threat to peace?

Leila



Emiko - Jul 28, 2004 2:02 pm (#368 of 2486)
Fawkes- You made me fall off my chair laughing with that "example". Although I love the idea of that prophecy... (Nice idea, Tornado) I just don't see that happening in the next book. I'm more inclined to agree with Sleeping Beauty about the prophecy having to deal with a new threat, or a new weapon. Not, exactly Hermione's offspring- besides, how does that fit with book 2?



Padfoot - Jul 28, 2004 3:03 pm (#369 of 2486)
Fawkes, I love it! Could totally see that happening as you describe it. I would love to see that play out in the books. But I do not think it realistically will. Hermione stresses out enough over her grades. She would self combust if she had to worry about that too.



drippan - Jul 28, 2004 3:24 pm (#370 of 2486)
Fawkes Forever, Fantastic Job!!!

Now, IMO, at the end, you made it seem that R/Hr accepted there destiny.

"They both looked down at their feet, afraid to catch anyones eye, and there was a long silence were no one even dared to move a muscle. Suddenly Hermione excused herself & practically bolted out of the room."

It leaves me to believe that they just have to really, really, really let it sink in........

Anyone else get that feeling?

DripPan



TomProffitt - Jul 28, 2004 3:28 pm (#371 of 2486)
I'll have to re-read it myself (perhaps this goes on the 'ship thread) but I think it has already sunk in, DripPan. The first time I read the scene where Harry has had his first snogging with Cho and has returned to the common room, I had the distinct feeling that Ron and Hermione had been doing a bit of snogging on their own while waiting for Harry to get back. Harry is the one that needs it to sink in, he just can't see his two best friends that way.



drippan - Jul 28, 2004 3:32 pm (#372 of 2486)
TomProffitt, "Harry is the one that needs it to sink in, he just can't see his two best friends that way."

I don't know about that. He did compare them to Mr. and Mrs. Weasley!

DripPan



TomProffitt - Jul 28, 2004 3:34 pm (#373 of 2486)
DripPan, I stand corrected.

By a Marine no less.



Luke E.A. Lockhart - Jul 28, 2004 3:37 pm (#374 of 2486)
Good point, drippan, I didn't remember that line!



Emiko - Jul 28, 2004 8:10 pm (#375 of 2486)
I dunno, Profitt, I really don't see Ron and Hermione realizing that they like each other just yet. Ron is too confused/freaked/godknowswhat by girls, and Hermione is too exasperated by Ron.... Maybe in book 6....



Sir Tornado - Jul 28, 2004 8:41 pm (#376 of 2486)
No, Fawkes, you missed an important point; Why do Ron, or Hermione have to know about the hypothetical prophecy? DD kept Harry in dark for 5 years, can't he keep Ron and Hermione in dark? For us, the readers to know about it, only Harry should know about the hypothetical Prophecy. DD could swear him secrecy so that he won't tell his friends.



Czarina II - Jul 28, 2004 9:37 pm (#377 of 2486)
Fawkes -- brilliant! I was giggling for a long time after reading that.

Tornedo -- you have a good point there. They wouldn't have to know; in fact, if you are correct, I can't see them knowing. The humour would be Harry interacting with them after learning about it!



Professor Jeeves - Jul 28, 2004 11:24 pm (#378 of 2486)
Tornedo-- I thought you were H/Hr 'shipper. What happened; change of heart? Good theory though.



Fawkes Forever - Jul 29, 2004 4:27 am (#379 of 2486)
Thanks Guys Must say I got a bit carried away there... sorry!

Drippan... I didn't mean to infer that they had both excepted their fate.. that little bit just wrote itself.... looks like my subconscious was coming into play there....

Tornedo, very good point... if there was a prophecy who is to say that they would ever find out about it until it had been fulfilled. Hmmm... *goes off to think this one over... perhaps stopping by the HBP thread*



Sir Tornado - Aug 1, 2004 12:26 am (#380 of 2486)
Ok, I can't stand Hermione being ignored for 2 days. So, what d'you think will be Hermione's reaction after hearing about the prophecy? I mean the one about Harry which crashed in DoM?



drippan - Aug 1, 2004 3:10 am (#381 of 2486)
She'll dive into books!! That's what Hermione does! Smile

DripPan



TomProffitt - Aug 1, 2004 5:00 am (#382 of 2486)
Tornedo, who's going to tell her? Not Dumbledore. Not Harry.



drippan - Aug 1, 2004 5:16 am (#383 of 2486)
TomProffitt, "Tornedo, who's going to tell her? Not Dumbledore. Not Harry."

Ron will...............while he's snogging with Hermione! hehehehe

DripPan



TomProffitt - Aug 1, 2004 5:25 am (#384 of 2486)
Same problem DripPan, Ron won't be told either.



The One - Aug 1, 2004 5:53 am (#385 of 2486)
TomProffitt

You just might be wrong here. Harry is developing, and he just might learn that keeping everything secret is not going to solve anything.

I expect him to tell his friends about both the prophesy and his shattered image of his father in book 6. My shippy side make me believe that he will tell Hermione first, but even if I am mistaken in this, I expect him to tell them.



Kasse - Aug 1, 2004 6:50 am (#386 of 2486)
JKR stated that he will tell them once he it has had time to sink in, at the end of OOP he was still not ready to say anything.



tracie1976 - Aug 1, 2004 6:55 am (#387 of 2486)
Harry will tell Hermione first. She will then probably look up any sort of spell for Harry to use against Voldemort.



Chris. - Aug 1, 2004 6:58 am (#388 of 2486)
I don't think Harry will tell anyone before anyone else. He'll get them all togther, when he feels the time is right, and tell them.

Hermione will stick with Harry and Ron may be a bit "distanced". If Harry reveals everything about Neville too, Nev will be scared. I don't know if he will tell Ginny and Luna though. Of course, I think this belongs on the "Harry" thread.



Chemyst - Aug 1, 2004 9:02 am (#389 of 2486)
JKR stated that he will tell them once he it has had time to sink in, at the end of OOP he was still not ready to say anything. - Kasse

Would you happen to have a reference for that?



Kasse - Aug 1, 2004 12:25 pm (#390 of 2486)
Chemyst I will look around for it I am sure I read it somewhere.....



Kasse - Aug 1, 2004 12:36 pm (#391 of 2486)
Ok I found it- it is on the mugglenet site under the JK Rowling World Book Day Chat 4/4/2004

Potter47: Will Harry tell Neville about the Prophesy? JK Rowling replies -> Harry will tell his nearest and dearest about the prophecy when he's ready. He needs time to digest the news himself first.

There you go Smile



Gemini Wolfie - Aug 2, 2004 12:17 am (#392 of 2486)
But how much harm is there in even Voldemort knowing the prophesy?The most important part of the prophesy "... and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not" is already done. Having Voldemort know it would only anger him. Same with the power the Dark Lord knows not. It'll give just give Voldemort fits! And Harry is Voldemort's #1 target anyways. The only bad thing I can see is that Voldemort will push harder to kill Harry now rather than later.

Anyways, I can imagine Harry telling Hermione and Ron. Harry will probably sulk for a long time before realizing that it's either him or Voldemort so he has to start working and not let his parents and Sirius' lives go to waste.



Ff3girl - Aug 2, 2004 1:37 am (#393 of 2486)
How much harm can come from Voldemort knowing the prophecy? Well, he knows the first half of it. That was why he came after Harry and getting ready to go after Neville. What Voldemort doesn't know is that the prophecy says that Harry must kill Volemort or visa versa.

Right now, Voldemort only wants to kill him because he hates him. Voldemort doesn't know that Harry is the only hope for humanity and must kill or be killed. If he knew that then he would put killing Harry much closer to the top of his 'evil things to do' list.

So anyway... how about that Hermione?? ^_^



Phelim Mcintyre - Aug 2, 2004 2:33 am (#394 of 2486)
Harry will probably tell Ron and Hermione on the Hogwart's Express. You know the routine, find a nice quiet compartment with no one else in it (just like in PoA). Hermione will hide her face in her hands and start to come up with lots of bits about not going to Hogwarts. Rom will go white (except for the frekles) and will then start going on about how the three of them together will do something.

Actually, the three of them together may be important. Their strengths and weaknesses balancing each other out. Where Voldemort is arrogant enough to use others but not partner with them, HRH are a partnership.



Sir Tornado - Aug 2, 2004 2:58 am (#395 of 2486)
HRH are a partnership. -- Phelim Mcintyre

Phelim; HRH aren't a patnership; they are a Trio.



Phelim Mcintyre - Aug 2, 2004 3:03 am (#396 of 2486)
Tornedo, they are a partnership in the fact that they are "persons associated with each other". They are more than a trio, a group of three. Look at how they work together to get to the Stone. The DA issue. What they have goes deeper. They work together as friends - and annoy each other in the process.



drippan - Aug 2, 2004 3:10 am (#397 of 2486)
"They work together as friends - and annoy each other in the process."

I think that is called a family! Smile

DripPan



Sir Tornado - Aug 2, 2004 3:10 am (#398 of 2486)
What I meant was; correct me if I'm wrong here; A patnership is an association between two people; not three people.



drippan - Aug 2, 2004 3:15 am (#399 of 2486)
Partnership can be more than 2 people.

There are partnerships in law firms where several lawyers get together.

My wife's doctors office has 3 doctors who formed a partnership. They all share in the expenses and the profits of the organization.

DripPan



Sir Tornado - Aug 2, 2004 3:48 am (#400 of 2486)
Thanks DripPan. See the advantages of this forum? My English has just improved.

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total hatred - Aug 2, 2004 4:23 am (#401 of 2486)
Voldie knowing the full prophecy will either send out his goons to kill Harry and will not bother to kil him personally or order them to capture him. He knows that Harry's death can be also his death. He will try to keep him alive.



Kathryn Pottinger - Aug 2, 2004 4:39 am (#402 of 2486)
I read a fanfic recently in which Hermione brought up a pretty important point with regard to the importance of Voldemort finding out about the full contents of the prophecy. If he does hear the whole thing then he'll know that Harry is the only one that can kill him. So will this mean he'll cease to be afraid of Dumbledore and go for Hogwarts??

(Apologies - I realise this is very much the wrong thread for that comment but I thought I'd mention it as it was being discussed here.)

As for Hermione's reaction to the prophecy, it wouldn't surprise me if she already suspected something of the sort. As readers, I think most people accepted that in the end it would come down to Harry vs Voldemort and possibly the most astute characters in the story would have been thinking along the same lines, even if only subconciously.



Sir Tornado - Aug 2, 2004 9:46 am (#403 of 2486)
Voldie knowing the full prophecy will either send out his goons to kill Harry and will not bother to kil him personally or order them to capture him. -- Total Hatred

Do you think Voldemort hasn't tried that already?



Magika - Aug 3, 2004 3:55 am (#404 of 2486)
Yep, he has tried that already. But if Voldemort got to know the entire Prophecy, panick would be added to his struggle for killing Harry. Then he'd know that he had to kill Harry, or else...

And i believe that Voldemort will attempt to kill <Harry personally. After all, the whole struggle between them is personal. Harry is Voldemort's greatest pain in the butt.



Steve Newton - Aug 3, 2004 7:16 am (#405 of 2486)
I am rereading OOTP and in Chapter 28, Snape's Worst Memory, we see Snape at his OWLs. His paper is described as "at least a foot more that his closest neighbors." Also the "writing was minuscule and cramped."

I have always thought of Hermione as a sort of young Mcgonnagall. But the length of Snape's paper and the tiny handwriting seem very like Hermione at about the same age. I don't like where this thought is taking me so I'll leave the observation without further comment.



Magika - Aug 3, 2004 3:58 pm (#406 of 2486)
It might not mean anything, Steve. I've noticed the same thing, but I've come to the conclution that Hermione reminds me more of MacGonnagal in major ways, f.ex. her respect for school rules, her strictness and intelligence. I've always seen her as a mini-MacGonnagal.



neu - Aug 4, 2004 9:17 pm (#407 of 2486)
This is a random thought, but does anyone believe Hermione is going to sacrifice her life to save Harry? I think she's deeply in love with Harry. But its not a selfish love, its a caring love. A love that's as strong as the love Lily and James had for Harry, if not stronger. (Maybe youve discussed that) I think her sacrifice will give Harry the shield/ protection needed to defeat Voldemort. (Just like Lily's sacrifice saved Harry, or so we think) With this, Harry will ultimately conquer death, because the A.K. curse won't kill him. And J.K. will use the "resurrection of the hero" twist, and Harry will somehow revive Hermione. (that being his ultimate power!! think about it... it is Voldemort's goal to conquer death, and he did, to an extent. And the prophecy states that Harry will have powers that the Dark Lord knows not. Maybe this is his true power!!)



Sir Tornado - Aug 4, 2004 9:53 pm (#408 of 2486)
No; I don't see JKR killing Hermione.



neu - Aug 4, 2004 10:04 pm (#409 of 2486)
yeah, you're right. That would be way to much of a shock. I would probably shed tears. But I did say Harry would rivive her. (Fantastical ideas of Harry's true power, I think there's a thread on that).



Chris. - Aug 4, 2004 10:07 pm (#410 of 2486)
yeah, you're right. That would be way to much of a shock. I would probably shed tears.- Neu.

All part of a good book/series. A death that the author wants us to feel distraught about, like with Sirius. I'm not saying I want Hermione to die, but nothing's certain with JKR.



The One - Aug 5, 2004 12:27 am (#411 of 2486)
About trio deaths:

If killing of Sirius was that bad, I do not see her having the heart to kill any trio member.

If she should kill of any of Harry closest friends, I think she will do it in book 6, to let Harry have time to feel the impact. If any trio member dies in the final showdown it will be Harry himself.

Killing of Hermione in book 6 does not fit my Hero/Heroine theory. Hence:



I expect the entire trio to survive.


If I am wrong, Ron may die in book 6. If he survives book 6 he should be safe.


Harry will survive book 6 (I guess most of us will agree on this one!) but there is a possibility he might die in book 7.


Hermione is safe in my mind.



Chris. - Aug 5, 2004 1:12 am (#412 of 2486)
Don't mean to bring 'Ship thread into other threads, but does your "Hero/Heroine" theory include the two getting together?



The One - Aug 5, 2004 1:31 am (#413 of 2486)
Don't mean to bring 'Ship thread into other threads, but does your "Hero/Heroine" theory include the two getting together?

See here:

The One "'Ship-'Ship (Exploring Relationships)" 8/1/04 3:10am

The theory is that for anything concerning Harry's main struggles Hermione is his most important supporter and to an increasingly degree partner. Ron's importance is decreasing. (And this is "my theory" because this is what I believe is happening. I does by no means claim to be the first one to read the books like this)

I believe that Hermione will survive because she is needed to fight LV, not because she is needed as Harry's girl friend. (That is just an added bonus. :-) )



Czarina II - Aug 5, 2004 11:20 am (#414 of 2486)
Hermione Granger is NOT the heroine. She has only PLAYED the heroine in PoA and (to a lesser extent) in PS. Ever since, she has been a sidekick like Ron, albeit smarter. If her name was Herbert and she was a boy, it wouldn't really change the storyline.



The One - Aug 5, 2004 12:24 pm (#415 of 2486)
Hermione Granger is NOT the heroine. She has only PLAYED the heroine in PoA and (to a lesser extent) in PS. Ever since; she has been a sidekick like Ron, albeit smarter.

I disagree very strongly! Ron was very important in the first book, as he, together with Hagrid was Harry's and Hermione's guide into the magical world. He also supplied Harry with his magical family and holiday resort. He also is a funny pal that Harry may relax with. The only important victory won by Ron alone is beating the chess game in PS The only otherwise important tactical decision was flying the Anglia, and going to Lockhart at the end of CoS. He is a sidekick. A brave one, but a sidekick.

Hermione, on the other hand is proactive. Her book knowledge and News-papers gets increasingly important as Harry and Hermione's catch up on Ron's general background knowledge. She actively coaches Harry to prepare him for the first and the third task. (Ron is used for target practice). She is the one who solves the basilisk mystery (And Harry is the one that interpret the clues she leaves behind when Hermione is taken out.) She is the one to capture Rita Skeeter, she is the one to organise the Quibbler interview, she is the one to initiate the DA, and later to organise it together with Harry. She is also the one to make Harry check whether Sirius rally have left GP 12, and functions more or less a co-leader during the search of the MoM. And she is the one to trick Umbrigde into the forest.

We see Harry and Ron quite often together doing schoolwork and playing chess etc. but when it come to adventures and important actions we se Harry and Hermione work together far more often then Harry and Ron. And when it comes to mystery solving we see Hermione and/or Harry work out things quite often, very seldom do we see Ron do so.

Both Ron and Hermione are sidekicks in the sense that their function is to support Harry, the main hero, but while Hermione acts independently, Ron is a follower.

It is a question of semantics when a character end being a hero/heroin and starts being an important sidekick. Harry is of course the most important character. Hermione is a good number two. But the distance back to Ron as number three is increasing throughout the books.

By the way, what do you meen by "Played the hero"?



Chemyst - Aug 5, 2004 1:14 pm (#416 of 2486)
If her name was Herbert and she was a boy, it wouldn't really change the storyline. - Czarina Viktor and Cho may disagree. But I do see your point. Having her be a girl increases the mass appeal of the books though. We girls need a smart resourceful chick to identify with.



Weeny Owl - Aug 5, 2004 3:34 pm (#417 of 2486)
I agree completely, Chemyst.

Hermione is one of the few good role models girls have these days. In my day it was rare to have a strong female in books, but I did always want to be Nancy Drew.

I do agree that Hermione isn't the heronie because the series doesn't need one. It's all Harry Potter and the <fill in the blank>.

I don't really see Ron and Hermione as side kicks, per se, but more as necessary components of what Harry can see as the best of the Wizarding World. One pure-blood and one Muggle-born, both good friends, both capable, both with different strengths and weaknesses that complement what Harry is.



Casey - Aug 6, 2004 9:24 am (#418 of 2486)
I'm not saying that Hermione will die, but I don't think JKR would simply NOT kill her because it'd be too sad. As she's put it quite plainly, there are more deaths coming that HAVE to happen, and if Hermione has to die to support the plot, then she will.



Solitaire - Aug 6, 2004 10:57 am (#419 of 2486)
Weeny Owl, I agree with you that the Trio together seem to kind of embody all of the best of the WW. Alone, each of them has some important flaws and gaps in what they can or are willing to do; together, they fill in each other's deficiencies. They remind me of a proverb in the Bible that says something like "a three-fold cord is not easily broken." When these three function as a unit, they are awesome.

I mean, do you think Harry would ever have been able to save the SS w/o Ron and Hermione? Ron handled the Chessboard, Hermione the Devil's Snare and the Potions Riddle. I'm not sure Harry could have worked those out on his own. I see the three of them almost as part of a unit. When one or all three are on the "outs" with each other, they do not function as well, do they?

I worry about Hermione, because I think her Muggle heritage is going to make her a prime target of DEs in general and the Malfoys in particular. Everything about her completely blows their pure-blood theories out of the water; she is an embarrassment that must be removed. I do not think her parents will escape unscathed, either. I don't like saying it, but I think it may happen. Sad I wish DD would put some of his special protection charms around her.

Solitaire



Weeny Owl - Aug 6, 2004 11:05 am (#420 of 2486)
I worry about Hermione, because I think her Muggle heritage is going to make her a prime target of DEs in general and the Malfoys in particular. Everything about her completely blows their pure-blood theories out of the water; she is an embarrassment that must be removed. I do not think her parents will escape unscathed, either. I don't like saying it, but I think it may happen. Sad I wish DD would put some of his special protection charms around her.

I agree with this. I've been worried about what Draco might do to her, because I'm sure he hasn't forgotten when she slapped him.

I can see JKR having her parents attacked by Death Eaters, but I hope she doesn't actually have them killed. I could see her writing an attack scene during the summer where Hermione and her parents are rescued and end up at Grimmauld Place. Perhaps a parent would be seriouly injured, but I really don't want either of her parents killed. I just hope JKR doesn't dislike dentists!



Kasse - Aug 6, 2004 11:15 am (#421 of 2486)
I worry about what they might do to Hermione too. It never did settle with me the first time Lucius saw Hemione he knew who she was without an introduction and he knew she was muggle born. What had Draco been telling him?



tracie1976 - Aug 6, 2004 11:24 am (#422 of 2486)
Kasse: I worry about what they might do to Hermione too. It never did settle with me the first time Lucius saw Hemione he knew who she was without an introduction and he knew she was muggle born. What had Draco been telling him?

I was thinking along the same lines when I was watching the movie this morning. Plus why was it that important for Draco to tell his father anything about a "mudblood"? Why would people like the Malfoys (pureblood supporters) even care what a muggle-born did at school (Lucius brings up Hermione doing better on the end of the tests than Draco) Do they see her as a threat to them or Voldemort along the same lines as Harry?



Kasse - Aug 6, 2004 11:32 am (#423 of 2486)
Do they see her as a threat to them or Voldemort along the same lines as Harry? - Tracie1976

I think they do. Hermione is very, very clever (the brightest witch of her age) she has the potential to be extremely powerful once fully trained, I think they Malfoys know this and it worries them....



Hermy-own - Aug 6, 2004 12:19 pm (#424 of 2486)
I hate to say it but the last few posts do sound right; it's not looking too good for our Hermione Sad

But before you all start getting emotional too, one thing we can't forget is that Hermy is just what Kasse said:

"very, very clever (the brightest witch of her age) she has the potential to be extremely powerful once fully trained"

She sure knows how to take care of herself. So Malfoys, if you're thinking of trying anything...



Solitaire - Aug 6, 2004 12:26 pm (#425 of 2486)
It sounds funny to say that the Malfoys are worried about a Muggle-born, doesn't it? But Hermione has surpassed Draco magically in ever possible way and thwarted him in every attempt to harm her or those she loves. How humiliating for someone like Lucius, who is all about pure-blood pride and superiority.

In the last book, she was at least partially responsible for his downfall and capture. Add that to the fact that he actually ENJOYS being cruel--Voldemort reminds us that Muggle torture has always been one of his favorite sports--and I see tragedy just waiting to happen to one or all of the Grangers. Yes, the Malfoys have serious scores to settle with Hermione, and I don't think they will stop until either SHE or they are dead. (I hope it's them.)

Solitaire



Hermy-own - Aug 6, 2004 12:59 pm (#426 of 2486)
I hope it's them too!! *JKR, please let it be them*

We don't really know much about the Grangers, do we? It's interesting that JKR hasn't told us much about them, perhaps she's got them lined up for something in HBP? If muggles are to feature in the war, Hermy's parents could be the ones to play a part. I'm not entirely sure how they could help though.

I think if the Malfoys wanted to settle a score with Hermy they would certainly get her where it would hurt most - her parents. Thats just what a Malfoy would do - attack defenceless muggles. The cowards would be less likely to go after Hermy herself, even though she is more of a threat to LV's regime. After all, Draco, more than anyone, should know how hard our Hermione can punch!



drippan - Aug 6, 2004 1:28 pm (#427 of 2486)
Boy, I go to work for a couple hours and come home to read this stuff!! Great work. Marvelous, absolutely marvelous!!

Solitaire, "Ron handled the Chessboard, Hermione the Devil's Snare and the Potions Riddle. I'm not sure Harry could have worked those out on his own."

You forgot about how they work as a team too! Remember the "capture the key" part. One went high, one went low and Harry in the middle to trap the key! How about the time they all got Snape at the same time with the same spell in the shrieking shack!! Each one meant to disarm him individually, but together, they knock him out!!

I like the idea of Hermione's parents as targets and moving to 12GP. Too bad they wouldn't get any sleep with Arthur around.

Hermione is diffenantly a target. If not for the DE, then Draco. I think if LV learns the whole prophecy, her and Ron will probably both be targets. Something along the lines of divide and conquer.

Weeny Owl, "I just hope JKR doesn't dislike dentists!"

It's according on what type of treatment she's had from them. If they made her feel better, they're safe. If they did 5 root canals, pulled all her wisdom teeth, and fixed 20 cavities all in the same day, they're toast!!

Again, great posting by everyone!!!

DripPan



Solitaire - Aug 6, 2004 2:04 pm (#428 of 2486)
Yes, drippan, I'd forgotten about capturing the key. But that just goes again to the awesomeness of the Trio when they work in concert. When they are working together, each knows the others have got their backside covered.

This makes me look more closely at the battle in the MoM. Hermione and Harry were separated from Ron and had Neville with them. Neville did perform valiantly under the circumstances. But I do see that taking out one of the Trio really put both Harry and Hermione at a disadvantage. It certainly put Ron at a disadvantage. The three of them are almost ONE when they are together. They are so tightly bound, I think--like the three-fold cord I mentioned earlier--that they can almost sense each other's next move and truly NEED each other to feel "whole."

LOL at the idea of Arthur pestering the Grangers to death if they were ever to have to share quarters.

Solitaire



Steve Newton - Aug 6, 2004 6:08 pm (#429 of 2486)
Solitaire I think that "The three of them are almost ONE when they are together. They are so tightly bound" is going to end up being a big theme in the books.



Hermy-own - Aug 6, 2004 7:03 pm (#430 of 2486)
Certainly will end up being a big theme...maybe even big enough to warrant its own thread!

Unless there's one already of course, i'll go check...

EDIT: nope, can't find one



Solitaire - Aug 6, 2004 8:38 pm (#431 of 2486)
I wonder if we will see the Trio as a parallel to the houses of Gryffindor, Ravenclaw, and Hufflepuff being tightly bound? Some steps in that direction have already been taken with the DA and the kids' joint defense of Harry on the train.

I hate to count Slytherin out of this loop--especially if there are decent Slytherin kids out there that we have simply not yet met--but I think the Slytherins themselves are going to be the determining factor in whether or not Hogwarts is truly able to unite as one from within.

I am hoping for an important defection among the Slytherin kids, as I think this could lead others away from Draco & Co. I could say more on this issue, but I'm not sure that this is the place for it.

Solitaire



Sir Tornado - Aug 6, 2004 10:03 pm (#432 of 2486)
If muggles are to feature in the war, Hermy's parents could be the ones to play a part. I'm not entirely sure how they could help though. -- hermy-own.

They could fix the teeth broken in the war and attend Order's dental problems.

Now; the topic here is getting dead depressing for me. Would anyone mind if I change it a bit? I hope not.

Any way, I OotP, the following conversation takes place on the last page.

'Harry, we'll have you away from there as soon as we can,' Mrs Weasley whispered, hugging him again.

'We'll see you soon, mate,' said Ron anxiously, shaking Harry's hand.

'Really soon, Harry,' said Hermione earnestly. 'We promise.'

How do they know? Especially Ron and Hermione? Are the Order telling them something behind Harry's back?



Paulus Maximus - Aug 6, 2004 10:14 pm (#433 of 2486)
Ron and Hermione knew better than anyone else what effect imprisonment at #4 Privet Drive had on Harry, having endured quite a tirade from Harry in Grimmauld Place as a result of it...

With or without the adults' permission, I'm sure that they will conspire to free Harry as soon as possible.



Hermy-own - Aug 7, 2004 7:58 am (#434 of 2486)
"They could fix the teeth broken in the war and attend Order's dental problems" --Tornedo

Haha!! Brilliant!



Mynn - Aug 7, 2004 12:30 pm (#435 of 2486)
I don't know that the order is telling Ron and Hermoine stuff behind Harry's back. I think it's encouragement. They're letting Harry know they're thinking about him and that they won't let the people with the power leave him stranded for to long. To me, it seems like a very natural thing to say to someone. I know when I'm dreading something (nothing as horrible as returning to the Dursley's of course) that to hear that it isn't going to last that long always lifts my spirits a bit.



Sir Tornado - Aug 7, 2004 9:49 pm (#436 of 2486)
Yes; but even JKR said it'll be Harry's shortest stay ever. So, Ron and Hermione must be right. Hermione won't make a promise she knows isn't going to be fulfilled ("A promise is a promise Harry"), so, she must be right. What exactly do they know that we or Harry don't know?



Solitaire - Aug 7, 2004 10:34 pm (#437 of 2486)
Even if you look at the beginning of OotP, it wasn't that Hermione and Ron knew so very much more than Harry. They DID know that the Order had been recalled and put into place ... they apparently knew that Harry was being watched ... and they knew about the Grim Old Place, since they were there working. But they do not seem to know much more than that, do they? I'm just starting to reread OotP, so maybe I'll find I'm wrong.

Solitaire



boop - Aug 8, 2004 3:27 am (#438 of 2486)
Solitaire- I have to agree with you on what Hermione and Ron knew. Fred and George made Extenable Ears to listen for information. Molly put a Imperturbable Charm on the kitchen door, so that they could not hear what went on at the meeting. Then when Sirius asks Harry after dinner if he has any questions he would like answered. Molly was not happy about that. Hermione and Ron wanted to stay and here the answers to the questions as well. So I don't think they knew much more then what Harry knew.



Solitaire - Aug 8, 2004 10:05 am (#439 of 2486)
I suppose that what's so maddening for Harry is that HE seems to be what all of these new things are about ... yet he has been left completely out of the loop. He hasn't even gotten any "general" correspondence from Ron, Hermione and Sirius.

A lot of his anger and confusion could have been prevented had DD told Sirius to simply write to him and tell him that preparations were underway to get him away from Privet asap ... but he needed to stay put and close to the house until he got the "signal." Brief updates would have kept him semi-satisfied.

We all know what it's like to be left hanging on tenderhooks, waiting anxiously for some important information, and no one makes a peep. Harry felt forgotten and overlooked--normal for anyone, especially an emotional teenager who has just experienced what HE has!

Solitaire



Weeny Owl - Aug 8, 2004 11:41 am (#440 of 2486)
A lot of his anger and confusion could have been prevented had DD told Sirius to simply write to him and tell him that preparations were underway to get him away from Privet asap ... but he needed to stay put and close to the house until he got the "signal." Brief updates would have kept him semi-satisfied.

I think the reason Hermione and Ron (and anyone else, for that matter) weren't supposed to write anything of importance was in case the owls were intercepted. That would include removing Harry from Privet Drive.

At the end of OotP, I think everyone was reassuring Harry that he wouldn't be left alone during the summer the way he had been before.

What I'm looking forward to is what JKR does with Hermione's feelings about Kreacher. Will that affect her S.P.E.W campaign or will she just consider him a fluke among house-elves?



Solitaire - Aug 8, 2004 12:53 pm (#441 of 2486)
Good point about the owls, Weeny. I'd forgotten that. HOWEVER, I still feel that Harry could have been told something, even if it was that owl-post was not safe. And Hermione COULD have used the "felly-tone," as she knows how to use it.

I like your point about Hermione and Kreacher. It will be interesting to see how that affects her plan.

Solitaire



Weeny Owl - Aug 8, 2004 12:59 pm (#442 of 2486)
And Hermione COULD have used the "felly-tone," as she knows how to use it.

That would have been an excellent idea, but after Vernon's reaction when Ron called Harry, everyone would probably think Vernon wouldn't let him come to the phone anyway, so they wouldn't have tried. Plus, it might have made Vernon so angry he tried to throw Harry out again.

I really would like to see Hermione and the Dursleys interact, though. We know Hermione isn't a shy, introverted wallflower, and I could just see her have a go at Vernon the way she did with Crouch, Sr. over Winky after the Quidditch World Cup. With Dudley, I could see her smack him the way she did Draco. As for Petunia, let's just say "Rita Skeeter knows not to mess with Miss Perfect."



Emiko - Aug 8, 2004 2:04 pm (#443 of 2486)
Whoa, I just thought of something. Some (sorry, can't remember who) mentioned that the Grangers (and muggles in general) could enter the war (something about fixing the Order's teeth. Hahaha!) Anywho, I realized that we still haven't seen "the weapon" that Sirius talks about in the begining of OotP. (at first, I assumed it was the prophecy, but that doesn't fit with what he said considering that they sort of did have it last time.) And if it's not Harry (which I guess it could be) but, if it's not, what if it's the muggles? I mean, Hermione's parents could be the link between muggle and wizarding worlds that wasn't there the last time. And together, muggle and wizards (i.e. entire earth against LV) could help defeat him.



Solitaire - Aug 8, 2004 2:17 pm (#444 of 2486)
LOL Weeny! I wouldn't mind seeing Hermione have a go at Uncle Vernon myself! It would be interesting to see some interaction between them (or Aunt Petunia, at least) and the Grangers.



Weeny Owl - Aug 8, 2004 2:42 pm (#445 of 2486)
Emiko:

That's a good theory, but JKR said in her March chat:

Calliope: Are the Muggle and Magical worlds ever going to be rejoined? JK Rowling replies -> No, the breach was final, although as book six shows, the Muggles are noticing more and more odd happenings now that Voldemort's back.

That doesn't totally discount your theory, but it doesn't sound too hopeful.

Solitaire:

I would love to see some interaction between the Grangers and the Dursleys. Perhaps one of the Grangers could give Dudders a root canal or just pull a tooth. Hermione might be horrified, but I think Ron and Harry would like it.

:I think I need to go iron my hands for that:



Solitaire - Aug 8, 2004 2:55 pm (#446 of 2486)
LOL Weeny! I'm rolling here! But that really isn't a bad idea. Uncle Vernon goes (or takes Dudley) to the dentist ... and the dentists turn out to be Hermione's parents, whom he recognizes--or who recognize him--from the train station. Perhaps there could be some cross-over that way.

Relax ... no need to heat up the iron just yet.

Solitaire



Czarina II - Aug 8, 2004 5:29 pm (#447 of 2486)
Sorry to bring up the heroine/not-the-heroine controversy again, but I've been away and I thought I should answer the One's question.

"Playing the heroine" (or hero) simply means that for a time in the story, a character who is not the hero does something to resolve the situation -- in essence, BE the hero. The expression "hero of the hour/day" fits in. They do something heroic. It happens in a lot of films where the hero is mired in combat and the the secondary captain who we met only briefly much earlier saves the hero and defeats the bad guys, for example. In the case of PS, Hermione plays the heroine with the Devil's Snare and the Potions riddle. Ron plays the hero with the chess game. Harry is the hero, but he is merely an observer or follower in these situations.

Side note -- the One, I apologise if English is not your first language, but "heroine" is spelled with an 'e' at the end. "Heroin" is quite different!

Hermione is probably not in direct mortal danger (from JKR's point of view) until the end of Bk7 (which I call "Harry Potter and the End of the Series"). She is very important and I don't think she will be removed in HbP.



The One - Aug 8, 2004 11:45 pm (#448 of 2486)
the One, I apologise if English is not your first language, but "heroine" is spelled with an 'e' at the end.

I am Norwegian in fact, and not that good at spelling. I am afraid that some bad spelling, especially the kind the spell checker does not detect; will appear.

She is very important and I don't think she will be removed in HbP.

Agreed.



Archangel - Aug 9, 2004 4:36 am (#449 of 2486)
Do you think Hermione and Harry will get to do another one-on-one lesson like they did in GoF in HBP? Harry seem to learn spells and charms faster when he's with Hermione. Very Happy



Duncan - Aug 9, 2004 6:31 am (#450 of 2486)
and Hermione enjoys that, maybe she will consider a career as Teacher in the future??

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Steve Newton - Aug 9, 2004 8:59 am (#451 of 2486)
If you were Hermione would you trust Rita once her year is up? The deal may be over but Hermione will still have the dangerous knowledge. Hermione can't have overlooked this. Will she give Rita a constant stream of articles to keep her busy, and working?



TomProffitt - Aug 9, 2004 9:28 am (#452 of 2486)
Hermione has not given up her power over Rita.

She has demonstrated her willingness to be as ruthless as Rita should the situation warrant.

She has shown Rita that "good behavior" can be lucrative, witness the obvious amount of galleons that were made with the Harry interview (some of it had to have found its way back to Rita, Rita is too smart to have let all of her rights to the story go to Lovegood).

Hermione will be happy to let Rita choose her own stories; and as I'm sure Rita knows, she'll be happy to bring the hammer down should Rita fail to play by the rules.



Steve Newton - Aug 9, 2004 9:38 am (#453 of 2486)
TP,

"Hermione has not given up her power over Rita."

Exactly my point. What would yo do if you were Rita and someone had the power to destroy you at any time?



TomProffitt - Aug 9, 2004 9:51 am (#454 of 2486)
Rita doesn't have a whole lot of options, Steve.

I just don't see her as being willing to kill Hermione. Attempted character assassination will end with her secret exposed.

Rita will behave, and hope for an opportunity to get some leverage on Hermione.

EDIT: Although I suppose a well placed obliviate spell would serve.



The One - Aug 9, 2004 9:53 am (#455 of 2486)
What would you do if you were Rita and someone had the power to destroy you at any time?

What can she do? Harry, Ron and possibly Luna and a unknown number of other people knows the secret. Taking out Hermione do not make her safe.

She can construct some kind of counter threat like "I will curse your parents if you tell on me", but she has not done that so far, and there is no reason she should wait a year before she does.



Siki - Aug 9, 2004 10:27 am (#456 of 2486)
Duncan-maybe she will consider a career as Teacher in the future??

I doubt hermione will become a teacher for one reason. I dont think she could stand having students in any of her classes that aren't as smart as she is. If she had students, I can so imagine her saying, "Come on students, didnt you read chapter 12 last night it stated perfectly clear the answer to what i am asking you. Clearly guys can't you read anything."



Kasse - Aug 9, 2004 10:35 am (#457 of 2486)
I have to respectfully disagree with you Siki. I do think That Hermione would make a good teacher; after all she was pretty patient when teaching Harry the summoning charm. Then again maybe that is because Harry is one of her best friends; she might be different towards others...........

EDIT: I just read Solitaire's Post and I completely forgot about how good she was with Neville, you are right.



Solitaire - Aug 9, 2004 10:54 am (#458 of 2486)
I don't know, Kasse. I think she was good with Neville, too. Even his grandmother mentions this at St. Mungo's, so she must have helped him enough times to make a significant difference. And while she may become exasperated with Ron and Harry from time to time and won't DO their work for them, she is willing to help them when they are willing to put in some effort.

I think Hermione could be a good teacher. If you look at her abilities critically, she is a lot like McGonagall--or at least she is becoming more like her. I think she has begun to learn that, while knowing theory and info from books IS important, practical knowledge and experience are also important, if the theory is going to be of any use. It has taken her a while to get to this point, too.

As far as S.P.E.W. goes, however, I wish she would revert to her "old self" and do a bit more research on the history of house-elves--their power, enslavements, ancient magic, etc. She might find info that would be considerably more useful in liberating them than knitting lumpy hats.

Solitaire



Siki - Aug 9, 2004 11:34 am (#459 of 2486)
I wish hermione would stop this S.P.E.W business too. If it was helping the house-elves then i would completly support it. But alls she is doing is making them angry, the elves want to work there.

The thing i was saying before about hermione not making a good teacher. i was also remembering the time in PS/SS when she was crying in the bathroom because some of the students were making fun of her. Teachers get tormented a lot at least where i am from. I don't know if she could handle it. But then again i could be completly wrong.



ex-FAHgeek - Aug 9, 2004 11:44 am (#460 of 2486)
---quote--- Teachers get tormented a lot at least where i am from. I don't know if she could handle it. But then again i could be completly wrong. ---end quote---

I would say that at this point she'd do pretty well. For example, after Rita's story about her came out, she was fairly non-plussed until the pus incident and realized that there were people who were actually willing to physically injure her because of that story - the "bad reputation" factor didn't bother her at all. She wades through the Slytherins' criticism admirably, and is continually the voice telling Harry and Ron to "just ignore them." Also, I think that in a position of authority she'd be much less likely to take criticism from students to heart - with the Ron incident, she was a peer trying to help who got cruelly berated for it; as a teacher, she's the one designing the tests and holding the gradebook.



Kasse - Aug 9, 2004 11:45 am (#461 of 2486)
In PS she was still very young - only 11 years old and a little sensitive. We see that in GOF she does not start crying when Rita's article comes out - she has become stronger emotionally. I do not think her tears in PS should be used to judge the possibility of her becoming a teacher.

However Siki I do agree with you about S.P.E.W - I know that she means well but I feel she needs to let that go.



Siki - Aug 9, 2004 11:52 am (#462 of 2486)
I am not ruling out the idea she could become a teacher. This is JKR's story of course, she will decide in the end. You do have some good points though.



Steve Newton - Aug 9, 2004 11:53 am (#463 of 2486)
She is obviously making a muddle of SPEW, but...I can't hellp thinking that there is much more to this. The Wizarding World's relations with the house elves will be key to the outcome of the series and Hermione will figure prominently in this. She should, at least occasionally, try speaking with a house elf, though.



Solitaire - Aug 9, 2004 12:02 pm (#464 of 2486)
Hermione has grown up a lot in the books. She has made almost as much of a transformation--so to speak--from her original "self" as Harry. She is willing to break rules when they need to be broken, although she does flinch sometimes. I tend to be a Hermione in that respect, too, because I understand the need for order. But Hermione is there when her friends need support and "covering."

My feelings about Hermione and SPEW have been stated sufficiently that I'm not going to repeat them. I do think SPEW is important, and I do not think she should stop. But HOW she goes about achieving her ends MAY--in the end--be as important as the ENDS themselves. How's that for a twisted sentence?

Solitaire



ex-FAHgeek - Aug 9, 2004 12:08 pm (#465 of 2486)
One thing I've always wondered is this - Dobby says that the House Elves are insulted by Hermione's attempts to hide the hats and free them. However, are they actually in danger of being freed? Can a Hogwarts student free a house-elf, or is that the province of the Headmaster? If anyone could free a house-elf for giving him/her clothes, Harry could have handed Dobby the sock himself, and that just seems too easy. It seems as though Hermione has missed a very important fact here - she's not the house-elves' master, and thus it shouldn't matter how many clothes she gives to them. The insult seems to lie in the attempt (it represents that she's dissatisfied with their service), rather than the chance that it would actually free them.



Hollywand - Aug 9, 2004 12:23 pm (#466 of 2486)
Geek, I think you point to a very important parallel difference between Hermione's actions and Harry's actions. Hermione acts from the intellect, ignoring the wishes of the elves at Hogwarts. Dumbledore must be very kind to them, and the Hogwarts house elves have a huge community and like their niche. By contrast, Harry sees that Dobby is suffering, does not want to be house elf to the Malfoys as Lucius is terrible to him. Harry sees an opportunity to liberate Dobby, trick Lucius, and undermine Lucius with his own greed at getting the diary. Harry acts from his compassion to correct a situation where the house elf wants greater freedom. I hope my post makes some sort of sense.



Solitaire - Aug 9, 2004 1:15 pm (#467 of 2486)
Oh, excellent points, ex-FAHgeek. And yes, Hollywand ... your post makes perfect sense. The more I think of it, the more "dense" and arrogant Hermione seems on this issue. In her misplaced zeal, the fact that SHE is not the house-elves' mistress does not seem to have dawned on her, does it? She just tosses off the elves' reluctance and "being insulted" to the belief that they aren't yet used to the idea of freedom.

Perhaps it has not registered with her that Harry didn't actually free Dobby. He just took advantage of the circumstances to set Malfoy up to do it. *sigh* And Hermione is usually so bright about catching subtle points. I'm surprised she hasn't yet asked Professor Binns about the house-elves, like she did with the Chamber of Secrets. Then again, I'm also surprised that she has not addressed Dumbledore on this issue.

Perhaps, after Harry has had a chance to discuss his and DD's talk more fully with Ron and Hermione--assuming he leaves in the comments about Sirius, Kreacher, and house-elves--she will seek out Dumbledore herself. I hope so. I bet he'd be willing to encourage and direct her properly in her efforts.

Solitaire



Hollywand - Aug 9, 2004 1:27 pm (#468 of 2486)
Hey Solitaire, great post! Before you head off, consider this with me, please: I got to thinking that perhaps the liberation of Dobby is a metaphor for what will happen between Harry and Voldie.

As you so cleverly pointed out in your post, it's actually Lucius who unwittingly liberates Dobby through Harry's gesture.

Couldn't this repeat itself with Voldie and Wormtail? Harry stays the hand of Sirius to spare Wormtail, Wormtail gives his hand and Harry's blood to Voldy, Voldy gives Wormtail the "Quicksilver Hand", which transfers from silver Slytherin to gold Gryffindor as Wormtail repays his life debt to Harry. Indirectly then, Voldy does die at the hand of Harry without Harry becoming the murderer?

I'd love to get your thoughts which we can take to the Harry thread....



Emiko - Aug 9, 2004 1:32 pm (#469 of 2486)
Wow Hollywand, I think I missed you somewhere, there. Why would Voldemort's "Quicksilver hand" (nice name, by the way) transfer to Gryffindor? I can think of several reasons, but not any that make sense. It's an interesting idea, just please explain!!!!!



Solitaire - Aug 9, 2004 1:36 pm (#470 of 2486)
Hollywand, I'm still having a bit of trouble grasping Wormtail's Quicksilver Hand transferring (or transfiguring?) to Gryffindor Gold. This has been mentioned in other posts on other threads, and I may be slow on the uptake, but I don't get it. Does it involve the concept of alchemy? I may need to post an email address, so that you can explain it to me as you might do for Neville. LOL I'm sorry to be so dense.

Solitaire



Hollywand - Aug 9, 2004 1:46 pm (#471 of 2486)
Yikes, we will probably get sheparded onto another post, but Emiko and Solitare I will address your question briefly. You can read extended thoughts on this on the Wormtail or Fawkes or Wands thread.

Mercury was highly prized by alchemists as quicksilver. They thought that by sublimating it (burning=Goblet of Fire=crucible) quicksilver could be transformed to gold. Mercury in its solid state is red (mercuric sulfide) which would equate with Harry's blood. Vermillion, cinnibar, other names for Mercury are associated with the phoenix, immortality and a key ingredient of the philospher's stone (this is classical alchemist lore, which I believe Rowling is using a as a major symbolic subtext for the series). For details on the transformation, just do a search under mercury on the Wands, Wormtail or Fawkes thread.

Mercury is also the messenger of the gods. I keep meaning to go back and see if Sibyll mentions Mercury, as that could also be a clue, and Rowling slid the whole "Sirius as grim" clue by me, so I bet there's another sitting right there in Divination.



Emiko - Aug 9, 2004 2:07 pm (#472 of 2486)
wow- that sounds extremely complex, and interesting. I shall have to look into it- that you Hollywand, nice theory!



TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 9, 2004 2:10 pm (#473 of 2486)
I read that theory and it keeps niggling in the back of my mind somewhere. When ya'll decide where you are going to discuss this please let me know. :-)



Emiko - Aug 9, 2004 2:28 pm (#474 of 2486)
Sorry, Hollywand- that was supposed to be THANK you!



Emiko - Aug 9, 2004 2:32 pm (#475 of 2486)
"Mercury is the messenger of the gods" Somehow that seems important. isn't there some quote somewhere about fate rushing on silver wings??? That sounds very familiar. So maybe that does point to the wormtail saving Harry thing. although, I believe that Harry must actually kill voldemort as... I dunno, some sort of conscious choice that will be life changing.



Solitaire - Aug 9, 2004 2:45 pm (#476 of 2486)
Hollywand, I responded to your post over on the Peter/Wormtail thread, as that seemed the most appropriate place--considering I didn't mention Hermione once.

Solitaire

Edited by me to include a link



Hollywand - Aug 9, 2004 2:50 pm (#477 of 2486)
Hi Twinks! I will be happy to keep you in the loop. Emiko, I think your connection on the "Silver wings of fate" is spot on: three fate makers seem to be Fawkes, Sibyll and Wormtail. Solitaire, see you on the Pettigrew thread.



Emiko - Aug 9, 2004 5:52 pm (#478 of 2486)
oooo- didn't think of the fawks and wings part.... Is that a quote, though?



Hollywand - Aug 9, 2004 6:29 pm (#479 of 2486)
That's not a quote from the book, but probably from the Greek concept of Fate and Nike and all sorts of other messengers like Hermes having wings.



The Artful Dodger - Aug 10, 2004 1:54 am (#480 of 2486)
Hello everyone, that's my first post on this thread. Hollywand, in post 466 you said "Hermione acts from her intellect". I think that, on the contrary, Hermione acts emotional when it comes to house-elves. She decides to start the whole S.P.E.W issue after seeing Crouch dismissing Winky and feeling the injustice of it. And she pities Winky pretty much the same way in which Harry pities Dobby. Ignoring the desires of the house-elves, and that there are many who are happy with their situation, means to me that she has actually stopped thinking logically. It seems that injustice arouses the strongest emotions in her (we see that with Buckbeak as well), which is a good thing, but in the case of S.P.E.W it seems to weaken her greatest strength, her intellect.



Magika - Aug 10, 2004 2:04 am (#481 of 2486)
I read you were talking about Mercury, although I didn't quite get the theory Smile (Early in the morning here). If Mercury is an important clue here, isn't it a bit odd that Hermione's name is a version of Hermes (in Greek mythology, messenger of the gods), who is also called Mercury in Roman mythology?

It's way to early for complex theories. *Yawn*

Great posts, by the way!



Steve Newton - Aug 10, 2004 6:37 am (#482 of 2486)
Artful, good catch on the parallel (juxtaposition) between Harry's and Hermione's response to elf abuse.



Hollywand - Aug 10, 2004 7:48 am (#483 of 2486)
Dodger, Rowling has mentioned that Hermione has some parallels to herself. Early on, she worked for Amnesty International, and I think, while she is very progressive and dedicated and I admire her many acts of generosity, I think Rowling is poking some gentle fun at those "crusaders" who think they know what's best for a chosen oppressed group better than the oppressed group does. To me, this is acting from the intellect rather than the heart, and the gist of Rowling's portrait of Hermione's actions. Hermione is compassionate, but overzealous and demanding of others.

Hemione and SPEW reminds me of the avant garde Bahaus artists who wanted to "liberate the workers with modernism" and designed clean, white living cubes as living spaces for working class people. The Bahaus artists were horrified when the workers promptly put up colorful scarves and painted the exteriors in garish colors to make their "sophisticated" design more human. ;-)



Emiko - Aug 11, 2004 3:12 pm (#484 of 2486)
Do you think Hermione will every succeed with SPEW? At the moment, it seems like she definitly won't, and I'm really curious to see how she reacts to Creecher, but I still can't see how a species could ENJOY being enslaved, granted working for Dumbledore isn't bad, especially since he's willing to give wages, should the elves want it- but I'm sure there are many families (Malfoys etc.) who don't feel the same way. Does anyone understand house elves better than I do?



The Artful Dodger - Aug 11, 2004 3:37 pm (#485 of 2486)
"Being enslaved" is a term from the human world, so it's imagineable that house-elves don't feel like slaves, as they don't know what that is. That's why Hermione's S.P.E.W. engagement hits a dead end so far. The house-elves just don't see her point. To succeed, the first step must be to convince them of the worth of freedom. I don't think Hermione will be doing that (she thinks it must be obvious to the house-elves, as it is so obvious to her, which is wrong thinking), but I think others (the Order) could. Or the house-elves might recognize that themselves, two of them (Dobby and Kreacher) already did so. Then, the house-elves would appreciate her support. Besides, even if the first step is done, I don't think it will be Hermione who frees the house-elves. She would have to convince a majority of the wizarding world, and a 15-year-old student just can't do that. Dumbledore will manage, though (he's already trying).



Mynn - Aug 11, 2004 6:48 pm (#486 of 2486)
Hey everyone. Just some thoughts on Hermoine and 'SPEW'. I don't know if anyone else goes to Mugglenet but along with this forum, I usally check out Mugglenet. I love to read the Northtower and Article 14 and 15 go along perfectly with what we've been discussing. Some of the things mentioned there are very good.

I think Hermoine, like so many of us, is so convinced that HER beliefs and way of thinking are correct that she totally dismisses and ignores the thoughts, feelings, and beliefs of, specifically the House Elves.

I think House Elves, for the most part are content with their lot in life and have no desire to be freed. They understand and love their place in their world. For the most part and of course as Dobby proved their are always exceptions and those searching for more. Hermoine needs to acknowlege that.

Anyhow, just my thought. And check out Mugglenet, the Northtower 14 and 15. Good Stuff.



TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 11, 2004 7:06 pm (#487 of 2486)
Mynn..." like so many of us, is so convinced that HER beliefs and way of thinking are correct that she totally dismisses and ignores the thoughts, feelings, and beliefs of,"

I see you have read some of my posts...have a stoat sandwich on me!

Do you really think there might be someone like that around here...whee! Don't have to toddle off to St Mungo's this time! They have arrived with the straight-jackets! (There's that hypen AGAIN)

Seriously, a lot of intelligent people, if not on the out-look for, develope their own conceptions of right, (there's the right way to do something, and there's my way) my way of course being right.

Is also a major, hmm, stage, as a teen, ( I can change the world), the optomissom, the hope, before real life hits you.

If all this made no sense, please feel free to ignore it.



Emiko - Aug 11, 2004 8:08 pm (#488 of 2486)
Well TwinklingBlueEyes, I dislike the teen comment, being a teen myself, mainly because I don't believe that real life has to be... bad? Uneventful? Powerless? Anywho- I don't really know what I'm talking about (never have expierenced the "real world") so I'll stop talking.

About Hermione and SPEW- Dodger, I really like that idea of the house elves not understanding enslavement... I'd never thought of it that way before. I do believe, however, that Hermione could make them understand freedom etc. Maybe not now (because she doesn't realize the problem yet) but in the future (remember her comment about wanting to take SPEW further...) but I think that she needs to realize that with SPEW, she's doing the same thing LV is doing: Trying to buldoze and force people to accept ideals he(she) believes are obvious and elementary.



TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 11, 2004 8:38 pm (#489 of 2486)
"Well TwinklingBlueEyes, I dislike the teen comment, being a teen myself, mainly because I don't believe that real life has to be... bad? Uneventful? Powerless?"

I never made that statement nor will you ever hear me say it. I'm sorry you took my conception of teens to mean that. Hmm, how to say this?

In our teen years, we go from being a child to being an adult. At the beginning we can do anything, physically coming to the height of our powers, have ideas, dreams, and plans that for whatever reason don't materialize. Food, clothing, shelter, loved ones, family, in other words responsiblilty, have a tendency to surpress the dreams and ideas. That's real life, maturing, becoming adult, accepting the responsibitities and playing the hand life deals you.

"If all this made no sense, please feel free to ignore it."

And I do very much remember the thoughts, feelings, and emotions of being a teen, also raised 4 teens who have grown to have children of their own.

Searching for a word here on tip of tongue, but can't type...

Our Hermione is growing up, but has a ways to go yet. Again, I'm sorry if you took my comments to be directed to you Emiko, rest assured, they weren't.

"bad? Uneventful? Powerless?" quite the contrary, is life...



True Love - Aug 12, 2004 7:48 pm (#490 of 2486)
I don't see how Hermione thinks her knitted hats will free the elves. Doesn't the piece of clothing have to be offered by the person who ownes the elves? I don't think she owns them, therefore she cannot free them. I wonder who does own them? The School Board? Certainly not DD, he is an employee. Hmmmm.



Paulus Maximus - Aug 12, 2004 7:55 pm (#491 of 2486)
Dumbledore pays Dobby, so if anyone owns Dobby, he does.

Of course, Dobby is also inclined to take orders from Umbridge, and Harry...



Emiko - Aug 12, 2004 8:17 pm (#492 of 2486)
TwinklingBlueEyes- I wasn't at all offended by your comment, sorry if it sounded like it! No, I didn't think you were aiming that at me- but I get that sort of comment all the time, from all sorts of people it gets a little discouraging at times, yes! I have big ambitions. So what if later on responsibilities catch up with me and I can't fufill them! (I'm not trying to lecture you at all- just expressing my frustration! Smile

That's a good point about the hats.... I wonder, I mean, if the house elves have to take orders from students (do they?), could it be that if anyone residing in Hogwarts (or the house elves' residence) has the power to free them?



TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 12, 2004 8:26 pm (#493 of 2486)
"TwinklingBlueEyes- I wasn't at all offended by your comment, sorry if it sounded like it!"

I didn't take it as offence, merely two different points of view, seen from two different age groups. I did not mean to seem to put a damper on your hopes and dreams, no matter what age, hopes and dreams keep us going though life's trials and joys.



Emiko - Aug 12, 2004 8:40 pm (#494 of 2486)
Oh yay : ) Thanks!



Solitaire - Aug 12, 2004 9:38 pm (#495 of 2486)
True Love, I hope the school board doesn't own them! Malfoy used to be on that board! Imagine someone like HIM in charge of that many elves ... scary! Farther back on this thread, your point about Hermione believing she could free the elves and how it was different with Dobby was discussed. You might want to check around posts #465-468.

Solitaire



Gemini Wolfie - Aug 13, 2004 6:44 am (#496 of 2486)
Perhaps the Hogwarts house-elves are tied to Hogwarts itself and perhaps the highest authority does belong to the headmaster. I'm thinking of the portraits of old headmasters. They are to help the current headmasters whomever he or she is.

I posted this over in the Luna thread: We know that the Sorting Hat sorts students into houses that they are best suited for(what's the actual phrase?) We know Hermione is intelligent. We see her as brave. But it's pretty clear that her bravery and chivalry is not clearcut, ie. it needs some prodding and developing. So Gryffindor house would best help Hermione develop her talents and round out her skills so to speak. As Hermione quickly coming to realize, she is smart but she isn't exactly "street-smart": No books or theories will help her fight Voldemort and the most dangerous place is often the safest place (ie. The Three Broomsticks).

Now that Hermione is no longer the only girl in town, it's interesting to note the similaries between Hermione, Ginny, and Luna and their differences. I think this new girl trio will learn from each other like the original trio.



Steve Newton - Aug 13, 2004 7:43 am (#497 of 2486)
Wow, 2 trios, the boys, Harry, Ron, and Neville. The Girls, Hermione, Ginny, and Luna. With Lupin as the what? (This seems to be the entire list of people who have ridden to Hogwarts with Harry.) As TomProffitt would say, the inner core.



Lars Smedberg - Aug 13, 2004 11:38 am (#498 of 2486)
My thoughts about the question "Should the house-elves of Hogwarts take orders from the students ?" I say, that if you compare with the army; the house-elves are the "privates" and the students are the "corporals" - the lowest rank of commands. So the students can give orders to the house-elves - but they'd better be sure that the teachers would approve of these orders...!



Emiko - Aug 13, 2004 12:56 pm (#499 of 2486)
Lars- that's a great way of thinking of it! But then, would the school board or the headmaster be in charge. (by the way, how does one become headmaster, or even assistant headmaster?) Steve... Interesting point. Lupin may, as the last maruader (Wormtail doesn't count!) could end up like a mentor/tutor especially for Harry since he was really good friends w/ both Sirius and James- that may transfer to the rest of the "inner core", and Lupin could be teaching them more "DA" stuff like nobility, controlling one's emotions (hahaha, poor snape), knowing when to act, and probablly after MoM, more on how to defend oneself. Remember how good he was as a DADA teacher?



True Love - Aug 13, 2004 3:23 pm (#500 of 2486)
Regarding the new girl trio - the three witches, the muses, seen so often in other literature and art. It will be interesting to see what their combined powers and passion will bring to the stories to come. I think the boys won't know what hit them!

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Gemini Wolfie - Aug 13, 2004 8:25 pm (#501 of 2486)
Wait, do the students actually pay tuition? No matter, the students are allowed to eat as much as they want to at the table anyways. Perhaps they are technically "guests" of Hogwarts or current residents, so the house-elves would readily heed their requests.

Hermione and Lupin have a special appreciation and respect for each other too so I definitely like the idea of Lupin being in the mix of things.



Sir Tornado - Aug 13, 2004 8:57 pm (#502 of 2486)
OK this seems to be a good thread to ask. How do the House-Elves know who has left the hats? If DD is their owner then only he can set them free. So, if a house-elf picks up a hat in Gryffindor common room, how does it know if DD has put it there or if someone else; Hermione for instance; has?



Gemini Wolfie - Aug 14, 2004 12:11 am (#503 of 2486)
Well Tornedo, first of all, does it matter to them who left those hats? It is an insult to them nonetheless. But even if it's Dumbledore who has left those hats he didn't exactly "pass" those hats to them. Assuming that they have no way of knowing who actually left those hats, the house-elves aren't likely to think ill or speak ill of their master. And house-elves aren't stupid. Dumbledore has been teaching at Hogwarts for 50+ years and was headmaster for 20+ years(with Dumbledore's penchant for sweets, he probably has never been shy about visiting the house-elves and must have been very courteous as well). I think the house-elves know a good master when they see one or like Winky, they might simply refuse to believe that they've been set free. They're not shy about speaking their minds either, so they'll probably think it's the work of a stupid student a million times over before they even think about the hats being the work of their master. Plus it happens to be in Gryffindor tower only. The elves take great pride in the work and highly value their own importance, I don't think they'll believe they've been "fired" until they're forced to leave Hogwarts by their master.



MrsGump - Aug 14, 2004 6:27 am (#504 of 2486)
We've been discussing the "freeing the house elves" problem on the Problems with 5th Book thread. You might want to check it out, Tornado.



Solitaire - Aug 14, 2004 8:38 am (#505 of 2486)
I believe Gemini is right on this one, Tornedo. Dobby has already told Harry that the rest of the House-elves refuse to clean Gryffindor anymore, because of the hats. The elves aren't stupid. I figure they must realize a student is doing this, because it isn't happening in any of the other houses.

Solitaire



Sir Tornado - Aug 16, 2004 3:18 am (#506 of 2486)
The elves aren't stupid -- Solitaire

Gemini, Solitaire, the House-elves aren't exactly bright are they? No where even near Hermione when it comes to intelligence. (See how I brought Hermione into discussion? It is her thread after all.)



Ethelred the Unready - Aug 16, 2004 9:19 am (#507 of 2486)
I think that Hermione is not all that bright about the non-academics, sure she good at school work and very enthusiastic about her causes but she doesn't think things through very well. Her attempt at explaining emotions to Harry and Ron are way off base. Her understanding of the centaurs is what led to disaster in the forest, the whole house-elf thing. Not to mention that when she get into battle she can't think at all.

So, while she is very good at research and coming up with answers given time, she can't think on her feet and she is wrong most of the time about the interpersonal relationships. For example when Umbridge wanted to put the Cruciatus curse on Harry, she panicked and came up with the centaur plan which led the whole MoM disaster. If she where really bright she would have let Umbridge put the curse on Harry it would have failed, I don't think Umbridge could pull the spell off, and by the time the spell had failed Snape would have come back and ended the scene. Voldemort would have failed, Umbridge would be in jail, and Harry would understand now important Occlumency is to him.



Steve Newton - Aug 16, 2004 9:26 am (#508 of 2486)
ETU,

What makes you think that she can't think in a battle? As far as I can tell she did pretty well at the DOM.

Allow Harry to suffer the Cruciatus curse? Stand by and allow your friend to be tortured?



Ethelred the Unready - Aug 16, 2004 10:40 am (#509 of 2486)
Being tortured is better than being killed and we are talking about a witch who can't put out fireworks or clean up the swamp. So how good could her Cruciatus be? So, she didn't think it through.

As for Hermione in DoM battle she almost got killed by an AK then stunned one DE got off a Silencio then didn't think that Dolohov could do anything which got her taken out and almost killed. I wouldn't say that was very impressive. Neville did much better than she did. Not thinking thing through is one of the flaws that she has make her real and interesting.



Paulus Maximus - Aug 16, 2004 12:36 pm (#510 of 2486)
The potency of the Cruciatus curse doesn't depend on the skills of the wizard (or at least, not only on the skills of the wizard.) The stronger the wizard's sense of sadism, the more effective the curse.

And we all know how sadistic Umbridge was...

Hermione had to think quickly in that scene anyway... and how was she to know anything about whether Cruciatus would work or not? For all she knew, it would work much better than anything else Umbridge had ever cast, and no friend should risk the pain and suffering of another friend, on the chance that it might not work.



Gemini Wolfie - Aug 16, 2004 1:04 pm (#511 of 2486)
Um, if a child is pointing a gun towards your friend from say 20ft out and threatens to pull the trigger, would you bet against the child's aim? As a teenager or even as an adult, knowing how terrible the Cruciatus curse is, I wouldn't want it anywhere near my friend. Seeing how the Ministry pass decree after decree in support of Umbridge, would you have much hope for justice at least currently? The word of 15 year olds still won't count for much especially when it involves the still-discredited Harry Potter and his friends. Besides, her use of an unforgiveable curse to interrogate someone who is hiding information on the whereabouts of the mass murderer Black might be frowned upon but also might be deemed necessary and not punished. And what made you think Snape was going to come back and quickly too? It's not worth the chance.

I'm not quite sure what is off-base in her explanations about emotions. Are you talking about girl emotions? She also guessed right that the Centaurs would help them get rid of Umbridge. They just didn't expect them to want to get rid of them as well. Remember that the centaurs themselves said it was a terrible crime.

I agree with you that Hermione isn't as good in battle as she is at academics. But you're saying it like it's a bad thing. It's really no knock against her. I think we got to lower our expectations a little. Hermione isn't interested in Quidditch and she surely isn't interested in becoming an Auror. Are you going to diss her Quidditch skills, flying skills or fighting skills? Can we simply acknowledge the fact that Hermione isn't a fighter and doesn't wish to be one? Not to be sexist, but Neville is a guy. He also has it in his genes not to mention the fact that it's personal for him. Surviving probably isn't the only thing that was on his mind. But still, I think it's arguable whether he did better than Hermione. Neville certainly fought bravely, but most of the spells Neville tried never materialized. It was Dolohov quick slash movement that fooled Hermione and probably fooled older and more powerful wizards as well. The guy is no chump. We've also seen Harry freeze before, although it was in front of Voldemort; but when you've faced Voldemort so many times, you aren't as likely to freeze in front of DEs.

Again, Hermione never pretended to be good at dueling. That's why she asked Harry to be the teacher because he is good at it. Do you think McGonagall would have done much better at the DoM? We got the indication that Lily was pretty good at charm work, but I think it's pretty clear that she's not a fighter either. Ginny on the other hand has makings of being better at dueling since he grew up with boys and had to defend herself. How many of us here are capable fighters? There's a difference between knowing martial arts, being able to take a punch, and being successful in a streetfight. Even if you're good at with the first doesn't guarantee success in the other two.



Archangel - Aug 16, 2004 10:39 pm (#512 of 2486)
Cruciatus curse doesn't depend on a wizard's or witch's skill. Everyone knows the incantation but not everyone does it or is successful in doing it. It is the intent that matters. As what Bellatrix told Harry, the user must want to cause pain since anger alone wouldn't sustain it. Umbridge clearly intends to cause pain and so would have no trouble hurting Harry had not Hermione intervened.

Also, with regards to MoM battle, Hermione did a lot of things before she was taken out of battle by Dolohov by the purple flame spell. (I don't think that was an AK spell since AK is usually associated with green light.) She deviced the way for them to know which doors they have passed through. She was able to stupefy a DE who almost got hold of Harry before they left the Prophecy room. Make no mistake, Dolohov is a powerful and mean wizard. I'd put her right up there with Voldemort and Bella as one of the baddies to watch.

Also, I don't think that she's unable to think on her feet since she has always proven that if called upon she rises to the occasion. The strongest proof for me of this is when she solved Snape's puzzle in PS/SS. There was no hesitation in her when she said the answer.



Weeny Owl - Aug 16, 2004 11:23 pm (#513 of 2486)
Gemini and Archangel:

I love what you both have said about Hermione. As knowledgable as she is, she isn't going to get everything right every time. She has totally misread the House-Elf situation, and she didn't do too well with the centaurs, but at the same time, she handled herself admirably in the Department of Mysteries. She may not be cut out to be an Auror, but not everyone is. She has her own strengths and weaknesses which serve to make her seem like a real person to me.



Solitaire - Aug 17, 2004 12:48 am (#514 of 2486)
She has her own strengths and weaknesses which serve to make her seem like a real person to me.

I think that is the key to Hermione, Weeny Owl. She is very real, but then all of the Trio are, I believe. Each one has strengths that are unique to the individual ... and each one has flaws that are completely human and believable. Together, however, they really work as a unit.

In her own way, I think Hermione has changed almost as much as Neville has in her five years at Hogwarts. She has moved from one of the most by-the-book, follow-the-rules students to one who is pretty darn creative about getting out of a "headlock situation"--which is more or less what had happened in Umbridge's office. I have a sneaky hunch Hermione might be able to out-perform Umbridge in a face-off with wands ... but she didn't have a wand. All she had were her smarts that time.

She took a big chance, too. While I am not sure there was anything else she could have done under the circumstances, Hermione nearly blew it with the Centaurs. They knew she was taking advantage of their rule not to harm "foals," and they called her on it. If it hadn't been for Grawp's unexpected appearance--aided by Umbridge's own despicable behavior--she and Harry may well have paid a much heavier price.

I agree that--while her heart is in the right place--Hermione is out of line with the House-elves. She has not even bothered to find out the true situation from those who are most closely concerned in it--the House-elves themselves.

Concerning how she handled herself in the Dept. of Mysteries, I think that for her first real battle, she did well (as did the other kids). She and Harry have gotten to a point where they can almost read each other's thoughts (this happened with the Centaur incident, too). They function well as a team and cover each other's backs. Given a choice between Hermione and Ron in a pinch, I'm not sure Harry wouldn't choose Hermione.

The real truth, IMO, is that all six of those kids should have died in that battle. If the situation had been different and the prophecy not at stake, I'm not sure the DEs would have bothered fighting; they would have AK'd them all (except perhaps Harry, and maybe even him). I think that when the reality of this has had a chance to sink in, the kids will have a fuller appreciation of what Harry has gone through in his past battles--when there is nothing but a split second between him and death by AK at any given moment. Just my thoughts on the subject ...

Solitaire



Ethelred the Unready - Aug 17, 2004 2:46 am (#515 of 2486)
The point I was trying to make is that Hernione has habit of not thinking a situation through to its conclusion. It one of her major weaknesses and can get her and others into a lot of trouble. If she was as bright as everyone claims she is, she would have been able to find a better way of delaying Umbridge until Snape could return. Is she smarter then Harry or Ron probably and by a wide margin.

It's her flaws that make real person instead of a plot device. She did the best she could do. It wasn't a very good but it was the best that she could do. Snape, Dumbledore,or any of the adults could have come up with a better plan, but then she is just 15 and is still learning.

Did Harry do any better in the office, no but then Harry isn't a thinker he's a doer. And Neville did perform at the battle than anyone would have thought because he is not suppose to be all that good.

I still don't think Umbridge could have pulled off the curse. I think that it is not an easy curse to perform it would take a good deal of power as well as attitude to make it work.



Solitaire - Aug 17, 2004 1:36 pm (#516 of 2486)
Ethelred: If she was as bright as everyone claims she is, she would have been able to find a better way of delaying Umbridge until Snape could return.

I think she finally resorted to this because, in the circumstances, there WAS no other alternative open to her. It wasn't just "the best she could do"--it was the ONLY thing she could have done. Could one of the teachers have come up with a better solution in the same circumstances, outnumbered and with no wand? Perhaps, but then that's why they are teachers, isn't it? Besides, as far as the kids knew, Snape had finished the conversation and wasn't coming back. McGonagall was in St. Mungo's miles away, and Dumbledore was who knows where; so speculating about what they COULD or WOULD have done is a moot point. They weren't available to do anything.

I think Hermione knew she was probably taking a gamble with the Centaurs after the last time when she and Harry had been with Hagrid; but she probably also figured she and Harry had a better shot at getting away from or even getting the upper hand over Umbridge if they could cut her out from the pack, so to speak. The only other option was to remain in Umbridge's office and LET her perform the Cruciatus curse on Harry. As for her not being able to perform it, well ... we don't REALLY know that, do we? After all, she did send Dementors after Harry. As for having the proper attitude, there is no doubt she possessed THAT in spades. I don't think I'd have wanted to chance it with no wand to defend myself.

What I found interesting was that once the Inquisitorial Squad were on their own--without Umbridge there--they were apparently not much of a match for Ron, Ginny, Neville, and Luna. I was surprised, as I thought they'd taken the Gryffs' wands. Since we weren't there and can't really know what happened, I can only guess that Draco probably got a bit overconfident (like his dad), and that it cost him. hem!hem!

Solitaire



Weeny Owl - Aug 17, 2004 2:51 pm (#517 of 2486)
I think that for her first real battle, she did well (as did the other kids).

She did remarkably well considering she's a Muggle-born witch and hasn't grown up with magic. All of the others except Harry have.

I hope JKR shows Hermione changing her rigidness in the next book, and perhaps she'll find another way to help the House-Elves. You're right, Solitaire, she has changed a great deal from her first year.



Gemini Wolfie - Aug 17, 2004 10:20 pm (#518 of 2486)
Ethelred, You still haven't told me what gave you the idea that Snape was coming back. As far as we know, Umbridge had yelled for Snape to get out of her office. Perhaps a teacher, Snape or otherwise, will EVENTUALLY come into the room from hearing Harry's cries. What Hermione thought of was one possible method of getting away and honestly, despite everything, it worked. Think back to the student's reaction when the DADA class discussed the unforgiveable curses in imposter Moody's class. Remember that the fear of the Cruciatus curse may be many times more terrifying than the Cruciatus curse itself.

The flaws and imperfections of our beloved characters makes them real, but also keeps them humble and allows a chance for them to evolve into better people. I have no doubt that our Trio could have been made essentialy perfect, but what good would that do? You can say it is stressed to us that Hermione has come to learn the importance and value of friendship. She has now broken more rules than she would have ever approved of when she first started at Hogwarts and that's one type of bravery she needed to develop. I mention again my theory that Hermione was chosen into Gryffindor and not Ravenclaw not because she is braver than she is intelligent but because she has bravery and chilvalry in her that needs to be developed.

Hermione is intelligent. So is Lupin, Dumbledore, Luna, and *gasp* Snape. I think Hermione fans are just appreciative of her good soul, good intentions, and brainy wit. I don't think much of her "mis-reading" the house-elf situation. She has the heart and the determination, she just needs to learn how to "play the game" more. Dumbledore, Voldemort, Malfoy, and Snape are significant and successful not because they are intelligent but because they know the Art of War; ie. they know how to play their cards and manipulate things to achieve their ends. I would bet that Hermione will continually come up with new plans for SPEW and finding more and more success as she learns more.



Solitaire - Aug 17, 2004 11:33 pm (#519 of 2486)
We also can't forget that these are, in a very real sense, "coming-of-age" stories. Our hero is a kid, and those closest to him are still kids. They are going to make errors, misread people, and misjudge situations. Most of us did the same on our journey to adulthood. Some of are still doing it decades later!

I like Gemini's suggestion that Hermione was placed into Gryffindor because it was not her intelligence that needed to be developed and nurtured ... it was her bravery and chivalry. Perhaps the Sorting Hat saw deeply enough into her to know that she would nurture her own intellectual development. Many are able to do that on their own.

Bravery and chivalry come from someplace different. It takes finding people who care enough to take risks for us to bring out our chivalry. Think of the Troll incident, because that was the beginning of chivalry in Hermione, I think.

Coming to realize that there are people and causes worth fighting for, even unto death, brings out our bravery. Think of how the trio risked their lives to save the Sorcerer's stone ... to save Sirius and Buckbeak ... to rescue Sirius in the Ministry ... The kids did not know what we now know about those situations. In their minds, they were putting their lives on the line for what they believed to be right, despite their fears ... and isn't that what being courageous is about?

Solitaire



Hermy-own - Aug 19, 2004 7:25 pm (#520 of 2486)
When you consider the many ways in which Hermione has developed as an individual, and couple these to the strengths she naturally possesses, you have to ask yourself, "what chance does LV have?" I know it will ultimately come down to HP vs LV, but at this rate there'll be very little our Hermione couldn't do by the end of book 7!

I'm certain we will see a similar development with Ron in HBP; we've already seen shades of it in OotP.

Harry is going to need all the help he can get to overcome the forces of evil so it's just as well the trio are evolving nicely.



Gemini Wolfie - Aug 19, 2004 8:12 pm (#521 of 2486)
"When you consider the many ways in which Hermione has developed as an individual, and couple these to the strengths she naturally possesses, you have to ask yourself, 'what chance does LV have?'"

I have to agree with you. LV is only the most powerful and famous dark wizard of his age; so powerful that few is brave enough to speak his name; he and so far not Hermione is only the most brilliant student Hogwarts had ever seen (at least since Dumbledore); and that even Dumbledore couldn't stop LV's reign of terror, not until he fell for one of DD's tricks?

Seriously though, I think Hermione would be a very capable wizard (especially charm work and possibly transfigurations) but I don't see her becoming a "powerful" wizard.



Hermy-own - Aug 20, 2004 2:21 pm (#522 of 2486)
"I don't see her becoming a "powerful" wizard." -Gemini

I always knew dropping Divination would be a mistake!



constant vigilance - Aug 20, 2004 4:46 pm (#523 of 2486)
Well, everybody has already leapt to Hermione's defence, but I have a few things I wish to add.

First, she has been a quick thinker on numerous occasions when it was necessary to do so: In SS, it was Hermione who got HRH past the devil's snare, and she solved the Potions puzzle with ease. It was Hermione who stopped Dobby's Bludger in CoS. It was Hermione who figured out what to make of Dumbledore's hint in PoA, helping her and Harry save Buckbeak and Sirius. In GoF, Hermione had the foresight to coach Harry for his Triwizard tasks. She not only figured out how to teach him, she was largely responsible for figuring out which spells he might need. Lastly, I agree with what other people have said regarding her actions in OoTP.

I think Hermione, like Harry, Ron, and Neville, has been evolving into a more well-rounded person. In the beginning of SS, she was a bit of a know-it-all. She didn't understand at that point how she was coming across to Ron when she corrected his pronunciation of Wingardum Leviosa. After that incident, yes she is still boastful about her exam marks and the ease which she learns, but she now knows how to effectively tutor Harry, Ron and Neville. Hermione was rather humbled by Harry and Ron's display of loyalty during the troll incident to the point that she was willing to lie (one of her major no-no's), and by the end of that First year she has learned one major life lesson that had to come from experience: that friendship, kindess and bravery are equal to, if not a little better than, cleverness and book smarts.

Hermione still has a great deal to learn from people. She needs to learn how to listen to the House-elves before deciding what is best for them. Hermione's heart is in the right place, but if she wants to advocate for the elves then she needs to make sure that she is fighting for what the elves want. I also think Luna has been placed near Hermione as a teacher of sorts. Luna has something that Hermione doesn't, a sense of trust maybe in the non-absolutes of the world, and Hermione definately needs to realize that other people can be intelligent/wise/correct about things which she deems as nonsense.



Archangel - Aug 20, 2004 7:07 pm (#524 of 2486)
"Luna has something that Hermione doesn't, a sense of trust maybe in the non-absolutes of the world, and Hermione definately needs to realize that other people can be intelligent/wise/correct about things which she deems as nonsense"

Hear! Hear! For Constant Vigilance! Smile Hermione is a "to see is to believe" kind of person. She needs verifiable proof before she accepts things. On the other hand, Luna is more intuitive. She knows that not everything in this world can be explained and seen and so she just simply chooses to believe.



Sir Tornado - Aug 20, 2004 8:35 pm (#525 of 2486)
It was Hermione who stopped Dobby's Bludger in CoS. -- Crookshanks.

Crookshanks, my dear friend, you've been watching CoS movie once too many times. Hermione DID NOT stop Dobby's bludger in the books, she does it only in the movies, which, of course is irrelevent here.



weasley by nature - Aug 21, 2004 3:15 am (#526 of 2486)
Accusing Hermione of just being "book-smart" is a dead-end because you can use what you learn in books in real life. She can use all of the spells that she knows from her classes (and from her extracurricular research) in battle, and she has proven this. And I think that Hermione has some part of her that is trusting of the non-absolutes in the world: she takes risks when she does not know what the outcome will be, for example. Just because she doesn't believe in Crumple-Horned Snorkacks doesn't mean that she doesn't have any intuition. While I like Luna, you have to admit that Hermione has a point. Hermione trusts her intuition, she's just not going to say anything for sure unlesss there's proof, which to me is not a flaw in character it's just logical.

I strongly disagree with Gemini Wolfie that Hermione performed worse because she is a girl (Gemini Wolfie 8/16/04 1:04pm). Physical strength has nothing to do with magical power and Ginny performed well in the battle but we have no proof that she performed better than Hermione. Besides Ginny has a totally different personality so it is unfair to say that she is a stronger character because she has grown up with boys. Luna performed well as far as we know and she doesn't have 6 brothers. And where is the proof that Neville performed better than Hermione (I know that you didn't argue this Gemini, but some other people did)? Because he was the one left with Harry? That was mainly due to chance in my opinion.



Hermy-own - Aug 21, 2004 6:08 am (#527 of 2486)
"she's just not going to say anything for sure unlesss there's proof, which to me is not a flaw in character it's just logical." - weasley by nature

I wouldn't call it a flaw either. It's just a characteristic that makes Hermione...Hermione.

All characteristics have both strengths and weaknesses. For instance, take Luna's tendency to believe the abstract - sometimes it's useful; sometimes it's a nuisance. Likewise, Hermione's need for proof before making a decision may either (i) disadvantage the group e.g. by stalling progress or (ii) benefit the group e.g. careful planning of the best course of action.



Solitaire - Aug 21, 2004 7:57 am (#528 of 2486)
Like most human beings I know--and I know and HAVE known a lot because I'm no kid and I've been teaching for 18 years--Hermione is not perfectly balanced. Big surprise! Who is? Most adults I know are very UNbalanced in their strengths and weaknesses.

While I hate using words like "typical," Hermione really does have what is called a classic "oldest child" or "only child" temperament and behavior. Oldest sibs frequently tend to be perfectionists and high achievers. Maybe that's because they truly get more totally dedicated "face time" with parents before the other kids come along. Firsts generally always get the new things, too ... not the hand-me-downs. In these ways, she is UNlike Ron, who has always felt lost in the shuffle.

Both of Hermione's parents are dentists, which tells me they are probably high achievers and perfectionists just like she is. I worked for a dentist for 2 years, and I know how they can be. Look at what they do, for Pete's sake! If their work isn't absolutely perfect and fit just so, their patients can't function properly. And they work on little tiny things (teeth) requiring tiny, precise tools. They are a lot like engineers, except everything is teensy and done in someone's mouth!

I would imagine Hermione has probably had everything she needed and parents who encouraged her to "look it up" when she had questions--not to be neglectful but to encourage her to broaden her knowledge. Then they probably discussed what she found and helped her apply the knowledge to her questions.

Look at how she chides Ron and Harry about never reading anything! She knows that just about any information she needs can be found in books, because someone has needed it or used it before her. She has been heavy on acquiring her knowledge up to this point. Now, however, she has been thrown headlong into an arena where book knowledge can only take her so far. Eventually, she is going to have to get into the field and apply what she knows ... and it is going to be in a war.

Hermione has begun to enter a phase of life where she must now put into play all of the things she has learned. It is possible that she is not a great strategist, because she hasn't had as much practice. Or maybe she knows that as long as SHE has the information, Ron and Harry will be able to figure out how to use it. Like most people I know, Hermione plays to her strengths.

It is possible she has no idea of her potential power just yet. She also tends to play by the rules, and that doesn't work in situations like the battle in the MoM--as she found to her misfortune. I think Hermione's taste of battle may wise her up a lot. I hope so. And once she sees that things don't always go by the numbers out in real life, she may be better able to work with the elves to ease their plight in a more useful way.

Solitaire



Emiko - Aug 21, 2004 7:52 pm (#529 of 2486)
I agree that Hermione wasn't disadvantaged in the MoM because she was a girl, but I think she was slightly disadbantaged because she had never faced such a high... intensity situation before. Yes, the situations she's been in have been stressful, no doubt about that, but in the MoM it was one life-or-death situation one after another... Just imagining fighting all the DEs makes me overwhelmed. I think the same thing really applies to everyone else, but that's like what Hermione said when trying to convince Harry to teach the DA. She knew that that was her (and others') weakpoint, and she wanted to work on it as well as she could.

I do believe, however, that Ginny (and probally Ron, too) would have an advantage because of the whole sibling thing. No, it's not the same situation, but I have a brother and we get in fights a lot (luckily we're not using curses), and the fights really force you to think on your feet, whether it's verbal or physical...So Ginny (and Ron!) would be expierenced (only slightly) because they'd have practice choosing and casting spells with a moment's thought. (And we know Ginny at least is good at this because of her Bat Bogey curses.)

Another note: the rest of the DA (at the MoM) tackled Malfoy and the rest of the gang before they joined Harry and Hermione, that would serve a "practice" of sorts for the battle to come. At the least it would boost their confidence. (Anyone agree, disagree?) While Hermione didn't have that luck(?).

However, I really don't think that Hermione did any worse than anyone else, really. Ron certainly wasn't lucky with the fighting aspect, neither was Ginny. The point when Hermione was wounded was simply chaotic and she was trying to protect herself, Harry, and Neville at the same time.



Sir Tornado - Aug 22, 2004 4:16 am (#530 of 2486)
Why do members here think Hermione did not perform well in DoM? In fact, she saved Harry once in there.



Time Traveler - Aug 22, 2004 4:49 am (#531 of 2486)
Oh, I think Hermione did perform well in DoM, Tornedo. She was almost always the best student in Harry's DADA class and she got the same good outcomes in DoM. Her only mistake was her carelessness for seconds after she fell the DE to silence. However, I didn't know one can use curses or spells without incantations so I was very surprised at the scene. She probably knew about that considering her wide knowledge, but Silencio is a good countercurse, so...
Just my idea.:-)



Solitaire - Aug 22, 2004 8:47 am (#532 of 2486)
I think Hermione may struggle with moral issues when it comes to hurting or AK-ing someone, even a DE. Remember the DE who got his head caught in the bell jar and it kept turning into a baby's head? Harry was going to take him out, and she said something like, "No, Harry! You can't hurt a baby!" Well, this was not a baby but a fully-grown DE. I think both Harry and Neville believed they were fighting for their lives, but I'm not sure Hermione was "there" yet. Her sense of "fair play" and her unwillingness to do permanent damage--even in battle with a DE--may prove to be her undoing. Just my 2 knuts ...

Solitaire



Time Traveler - Aug 22, 2004 9:03 am (#533 of 2486)
Remember the DE who got his head caught in the bell jar and it kept turning into a baby's head? Harry was going to take him out, and she said something like, "No, Harry! You can't hurt a baby!" Well, this was not a baby but a fully-grown DE.
====================================================================

Oh, about this bell jar matter, I've not perfectly understood. When I read that scene, I suspected that this guy had a real 'baby's head'. I thought, when Hermione said something like that, she probably had a reason for it. Ok, here I found the phrase.



*****************(during the change of the DE's head, in Ch.35)******************
"It's time," said Hermione in an awestuck voice. "Time..."

********************************************************************

This seems Hermione just realized the true meaning or process of the bell jar. Oh, is there a thread fit for discussing this matter? Or give me the answer if you know.:-)

If the man had really a baby's head and Hermione knew that when Harry or others didn't realize yet(?), it's not her mistake or something to stop Harry from attacking him.



Emiko - Aug 22, 2004 11:19 am (#534 of 2486)
It seemed to me that the guy had a real baby's head- but he was still a DE, did the baby's head change his thinking too? In that case, he was as good as gone because a baby can't AK someone. I kinda agree with Solitare about Hermione not quite being "there" yet. I think mentally she understands everything that's going on, but emotionally she doesn't really understand. That could be another reason for killing off Hermione's parents... I knows and gets the implications of LV being back, but it's not personal yet. (although, I'm curious as to how Hermione will take Sirius' death, especially since she wasn't too fond of him in the end of book 5)



Time Traveler - Aug 22, 2004 10:16 pm (#535 of 2486)
did the baby's head change his thinking too?

Oh, I think it DID change his thinking, too and I think that Hermione thought so.

When I said he got a real baby's head, I didn't mean he had a baby's face or hair. I meant, he had a real baby's head, that is, a real baby's brain. I'm not so sure about this, but I think there are some evidences..

First, as far as I know, normal fully-grown human adult's brain is bigger than normal baby's one. So, if he had a baby's head and still his adult's brain, well, it sounds somewhat horrible.:-(
And he did very odd things after he got his baby's head. I think a baby can talk at some rate if it knows how to use its tongue, but he didn't talk only babbled. And He couldn't control his limbs at all.. and it seems that he couldn't recognized others properly..

So, I think Hermione didn't want to harm not the damaged DE but a guy who had a baby's brain.. or a baby with a grown-up body.

And about Hermione not quite being "there", I don't think it's her weakness or something. As one in the group of extremely-uninfluenced-by-outer-events people, I don't think that not showing of upset or embarrassment or excitement is very strange or wrong or scary. It is just a character.

For defense of Hermione and me maybe, I think we should know that some people is less excited by things than others. And some people don't or can't express their feelings as strong as they really feel. Sometimes, this tendency makes them misunderstood by others that they are indifferent or cold or unsociable, but sometimes it helps them not swept into unreasonable madness.

So, if I should call someone not quite being "there", I would call Luna. She is usually detached from things, I think that's obvious. (But, I don't think it's wrong, too.) However, I don't think Hermione didn't understand where she was or which position she was stuck in. She just didn't feel upsetter than others, or just didn't express her feelings much, or just could control her feeling and overwhelm it with her reason.



Solitaire - Aug 22, 2004 10:35 pm (#536 of 2486)
I think both Harry and Neville believed they were fighting for their lives, but I'm not sure Hermione was "there" yet.

I said this, and I believe it to be true. The destruction the DEs cause has touched Harry and Neville on the deepest of personal levels. Neville is reminded of this every time he sees his parents in St. Mungo's and every day that he wakes up to his Gran rather than his parents. Harry has literally fought for his life with Voldemort and has heard many times his mother's screams and the last words she ever spoke. I think he and Neville really do know what they are up against. I think that Ginny probably does, as well, having come so close to death herself.

I do not know if Hermione and Luna realized the full extent of what they were getting into, although they certainly do now. Luna may have, but it's difficult to tell with her. She doesn't seem to rattle easily, making it difficult to sort out whether she is just one cool customer under pressure or she does not realize the danger of her situation. If she proves to be excellent at dueling, she could be an awesome partner or opponent in a major battle.

I think Ron grasped what was going down, although he was kind of "out of it" once he was attacked by the brains. I look for a different tone in Ron in the next book--more aware of the reality of what Harry has been facing and will continue to face.

I do not see anything Hermione did or didn't do as a character flaw or shortcoming in her ability. I believe she and the other kids acquitted themselves well in the circumstances. What's more, I also think Hermione would be the one Harry would want covering his backside--even over Ron--if he could choose only one friend to cover him in battle.

Solitaire



Czarina II - Aug 22, 2004 10:44 pm (#537 of 2486)
Hermione thinks too much. That is probably her greatest flaw. I have a similar problem. Because she reads so much, she knows many different things and opinions, etc. that the others don't usually consider. Hermione reasons and weighs options -- she is not much of a quick thinker except under duress. She also has an uncanny belief that she is right because of her knowledge. Because she has read about something that Harry and Ron haven't, she adopts a superior attitude and takes charge without listening. The boys listen to her because she usually gives straightforward, logical, reasonable answers. She is a take-charge person, so she doesn't follow very willingly.

In OoP, Hermione falters majorly in the Forest with the centaurs. She assumes that, because a) Firenze is nice, b) the centaurs don't harm foals, and c) Hagrid isn't with them (he'd been annoying the centaurs before), she and Harry would be safe and hopefully get rid of or at least stall Umbridge. She froze-up mentally in the Forest and it was a good thing that Grawp came along to distract the centaurs. Harry reacted better to that situation. He is a quick-thinker and he is very independent. HE took charge at that point because all of Hermione's logical, reasonable thinking was useless.

I say this because in much of this sense, I would react similarly. I think Hermione's idea of taking Umbridge into the Forest was brilliant considering the situation, but it was impulsive and Hermione is not the kind of person that can think well on impulse. Back in PS, she had to be reminded about her blue fire spell. Now, if Luna had been the one to confront Umbridge in OoP, she would have taken a very different approach. She knows that she is not taken seriously, so her first reaction might be to stall Umbridge with what the latter would deem to be silliness (talking in riddles, answering in roundabout ways, feigning stupidity, etc.). Luna (IMHO) is very intelligent and disguises it well. It is very likely that she would come up with the idea of sending Umbridge off on a wild goose chase into the Forest. To our knowledge, Luna doesn't have any idea that there's a small giant, a band of centaurs, a thousand hungry spiders, etc. in the Forest, but she DOES know that there are dark creatures in there. Something would be bound to catch Umbridge. Or perhaps even one of the Inquisitorial Squad goons would go with her! Hermione is also a fearful person; Luna represses that emotion. Luna would not have been scared of the centaurs to such a degree as Hermione.

Anyhow, I am just trying to show how Hermione is not perfect and her being logical is not always the best of things. Luna does not confine herself to book-logic. Just for the sake of comparison, Ginny would probably have attempted to fight the centaurs or run away -- which obviously throws logic to the wind.



Emiko - Aug 23, 2004 5:15 pm (#538 of 2486)
I disagree, Time Traveler. I think that Hermione not completly understanding the graveness of her situation was a major weakness. It's not by any means her fault, but it still handicaps her ability to reason within the situation as well as Harry can. Harry knows that its life-or-death, that his life, and the lives of others, depends on his next split second decision. And, he knows that he must make the decision, whether it's what spell to cast, when to duck, what to say, in a split second. Hermione, as Czarina pointed out thinks too much, but it's more than that- Hermione's used to getting a second chance. In her thinking, she seems to encompass "well, if that doesn't work, I'll just think up something else" mentality, which is great, except for situations, like with the centaurs, when she doesn't get a second chance. (Although, I think that the centaur move was brilliant considering the circumstances) And, like Czarina said, Hermione tends to be convinced that she's right, so she doesn't plan to think ahead if she's wrong, like with the centaurs. The she doesn't seem used to thinking on her feet for one right answer, possibly because, in class, she always knows the right answer and doesn't see it in the "one chance, one right answer" way the Harry and Ron tend to. I hope that made sense. : )



Czarina II - Aug 23, 2004 7:57 pm (#539 of 2486)
Well put, Emiko.



Emiko - Aug 23, 2004 7:59 pm (#540 of 2486)
Thanks!



Upulwan - Aug 25, 2004 2:47 am (#541 of 2486)
Interesting thoughts there, guys. Just to add my two knuts worth about a couple of things, I think Hermione did very much realise the graveness of her situation, but not having been in a situation like that before, she was at a loss what to do or think. Sure there was PS and PoA, but she wasn't physically present at the deciding moment in PS and had psyched out in PoA when the Dementors glided in. I think it's a matter of experience, beside it being a matter of the way she thinks: Harry has been there, right on the edge, so many times that his reflexes have been keenly sharpened. Not just after entering Hogwarts, but at the Dursley's too, the numerous ocasions when he has had to dodge Dudley. From the little we know of Hermione's pre-Hogwarts life, we can only deduce that compared to Harry she's led quite a 'sheltered' life, not featuring many brushes with death or Dudley-like issues.

Also, Harry has a kind of impulsive courage that kicks in when faced with the worst: in contrast, like you said Czarina, Hermione thinks in this long-drawn, extended manner, that isn't very useful where quick thinking is needed. She clears the way, with her logical thinking, (eg: GoF) but falters when faced with the monster at the end of the road.

But that's exactly the point: the trio (or the six of them) make (or have the potential to make)a formidable team because they can match each other's strengths and compensate for their weaknesses. (er, not sure how Ron comes into this if we go by OoP, but I'm sure we'll find out). Besides Harry, Hermione and Ron, there's Luna whose completely otherworldly composure and insights have such potential, there's Neville with his rapidly growing confidence, and there's good old Ginny with her spunk. On their own, none of them would be very deadly. Together, they have the ground well covered.



Pine Fresh - Aug 25, 2004 7:26 am (#542 of 2486)
What I think is great about Hermione is that she actually has concern for other magical cultures in the WW. Although her grasp of House Elf culture and Centaur culture isn't so great, she's at least paying attention to their situations and trying to understand them--and is forcing interactions with them (whether for good or for bad remains to be seen). Most wizards and witches we've seen would rather not worry themselves about other magical peoples, especially House Elves.

I see Hermione working as a Uniter in the WW (sorry--overhearing too much 2004 presidential campaigning). As a Muggleborn witch, she already embodies two disparate worlds, and she often serves as a mediator between those worlds--as well as a mediator in general. In GoF, for example, she tries very hard to get Harry and Ron to make up with each other after their fight. In OoP, we see she's remained in contact with Viktor from Durmstrang--another indication of her willingness to create relationships beyond Hogwarts. She tries to explain Cho's feelings to Harry, to help him understand why she was always crying. And Grawp remembers her name in the Forbidden Forest scene--he asks her to help him find "Hagger." Granted, she's made mistakes, but she's quite politic, really. I think its no coincidence she's become an accomplished knitter--knitting together relationships as well as elf hats.

She a Virgo, like my mother: strong, bright, analytical, and loving (and bushy haired!), but with a compartment of self doubt.

I think she's going to end up as Minister of Magic one day.



Hermy-own - Aug 25, 2004 8:39 am (#543 of 2486)
Very good posts guys!

Upulwan, I very much agree that the DoM sextet have the potential to develop into a well rounded team.

Pine Fresh, I like the link you made between Hermione knitting elf hats and knitting relationships. We know her hat-knitting skills were not the best initially but she did get better towards the end of OotP. Maybe this will be reflected in her attmepts to unite wizards/witches with house-elves and centaurs; she hasn't had much luck so far but may be more successful in the future.



Pine Fresh - Aug 25, 2004 9:34 am (#544 of 2486)
Nice observations Upulwan: "Hermione thinks in this long-drawn, extended manner, that isn't very useful where quick thinking is needed. She clears the way, with her logical thinking, (eg: GoF) but falters when faced with the monster at the end of the road."

I agree that she is more a planner and detective than a fighter. However, she is sooo useful to have around in a tight spot ("Flagrate" & "Colloportus" in the DoM, for example). Do you think maybe her long-sightedness is a skill that will be augmented by her rune and arthimancy skills? (As I understand it, these are both methods of reading trends--like more scientific techniques of divination than "the Orb" and tea leaves.) I'm hoping what she's learned in these classes will "be revealed" in HBP!



Phoenix song - Aug 25, 2004 10:11 am (#545 of 2486)
I think that Hermione is just an amazingly talented witch. I agree that she has been short-sighted in her ideas about SPEW. We're progressively learning that intentions and choices are important themes in these books. With that in mind, I'd have to say that Hermione's intentions are good, pure and noble. I also have to say that Dumbledore has reminded us that wizards have mistreated their fellow magical creatures for too long. Surely he believes that Hermione is right, and that something needs to be done for the house elves.

Although she may be a bit unbalanced and idealistic, I think that Hermione really brings a solid sense of completion to the trio. They are all flawed and incomplete separately, but together they are amazingly talented. I would say that their complete devotion and loyalty to one another will ultimately prove to be a "magic" in and of itself that Voldemort will underestimate. (The same type of magic that he underestimated in Lily's love and sacrifice for Harry.)

Has anyone else wondered if the trio and their loyalty to each other could be the power that Harry has that Voldemort doesn't know? We have been told by JKR that he has never loved, and we know that they do love one another.



schoff - Aug 25, 2004 11:39 am (#546 of 2486)
I think that Hermione is just an amazingly talented witch.

I don't think Hermione is particularly powerful, just smart in how she uses her magic.



Hermy-own - Aug 25, 2004 11:53 am (#547 of 2486)
Remember when Harry saved Fleur's little sister? Well, I seem to recall Hermione referring to Harry's acts of altruism as "playing the hero too many times" (or something along those lines).
Surely Hermione didn't think Harry saved the girl to solidify his hero status?

EDIT: I'll try to get some quotes from the books but right now I think she made those comments in OotP.



Pine Fresh - Aug 25, 2004 12:04 pm (#548 of 2486)
Schoff--I guess it depends on how you define "powerful." That sneak jinx she put on Marietta was pretty intense. And the Protean Charm was very advanced magic for her age. Of course, Hermione's kind of power is of a different kind than Harry's, or Ron's.



Leila 2X4B - Aug 25, 2004 6:07 pm (#549 of 2486)
I think that Hermione was making a point that Harry feels the need to play the hero. He feels like he has to shoulder a burden. Not so much that he likes it or wants to prove himself to others, but that he feels a personal drive to protect and it can get in the way. Note OotP.



Upulwan - Aug 25, 2004 6:48 pm (#550 of 2486)
Thanks Pinefresh! Yes, I too would like to know what she learns in Runes and Arithmancy, but if they are some kind of scientific divination methods, I don't think that'll add to her logic. Sure, they'll enhance her knowledge, but I see her logical thinking as a kind of instinct, it's just the way her mind works. I think she has enough learning to be going with, but needs more experience, which will help sharpen these instincts. But hey, I could be wrong. I just think it's important we remember that none these character quirks of any character are wholly faults or shortcomings: as many of you have already pointed out, they are what make Hermione, Hermione and Harry, Harry, and what may be a shortcoming in one occasion is what saves their lives in another. Like you said, Pine Fresh, they each have different kinds of 'powers'.

About Harry's playing-the-hero instinct, I agree with Sleeping Beauty: it's not some superficial super-hero complex, but like Hermione says later in that scene in OoP, Harry's 'the KIND of PERSON who'll go to Sirius's aid', and yes it sometimes gets in the way, and we ought to be thankful that Hermione has the insight to spot this.

Also, I think at a certain unconscious level, he does these things to deserve the acclaim he has in the wizarding world: he was flipped overnight from being treated worse than the fluff on my carpet to a wizard worshipped wherever he goes, something he doesn't really understand. In his eyes he's 'just Harry', and by doing these daring things he's probably trying subconsciously to reconcile his two selves- the one he knows and the one the wizarding world sees. But of course that doesn't belittle his courageousness. Well, I'd better stop before I get shooed away from this thread, because we ARE talking about Hermione, aren't we? Smile

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Emiko - Aug 25, 2004 7:39 pm (#551 of 2486)
I agree, Harry's half trying to justify his "claim to fame", at least in PS. Harry can't completly understand the significance of LV coming back- he knows it'll be bad, but he hasn't learned much about the reign of terror except that his parents died and everyone he knows is afraid of LV. I think there, he was justifying it. Lately, it seems like Harry's thrown into these situations and doesn't have much of a choice- if he didn't go to help, what would we think of him, what would he think of himself? The one exception I can think of would be Fleur's sister, but if he thought she was going to die- I guess maybe not. I think that Hermione gets all that, reading so many books has probablly taught her a lot about human nature, and hopefully in HBP she'll be able to get that past Harry who will start to realize the flaws in himself. (HA! I managed to bring Hermione into all that after all!)



Gemini Wolfie - Aug 25, 2004 8:15 pm (#552 of 2486)
Sorry for bringing back older discussion but I thought I should reply in regards to my comments about Hermione being a girl in defense of whatever bad performance she put on at the MoM.

I do not mean to stereotype, but being a guy, I think it is a girl's right to be treated like a guy among her guy friends if she wants to be and it is also a girl's right to be treated like a girl when she wants to be. I said that Hermione is a girl because I don't think Hermione is intersted in fighting, battling, duels or even sports. I'm not implying that because she's a girl she is worse at duels(Bellaxtrix anyone? But then would anyone call her a girl or a woman?). I said Ginny is seen as the girl more likely to become "powerful" in the sense of fighting wizard battles because she is more tomboyish than Hermione. She is used to fighting for her own respect and isn't afraid to get physical with the boys.

Take the famous Kariya sporting family for example. Guess who's the fighter in the family? Yes the youngest sister. Noriko Kariya grew up beating up her brothers and then became a boxer while the most famous Paul Kariya barely threw a punch throughout his hockey career.

Point is that Hermione, like Luna, for all her talents, doesn't need to be good at wizarding battles. It's easy to place too great of a value on fighting abilities alone. In wizarding action RPGs (video games), there's always a wizard with high magical abilities that isn't a fighter but is invaluable for his/her magical skills in healing, protection etc. Warriors are highly regarded but advisors are too. I say let Hermione be Hermione. She doesn't dream to be an auror.



Sir Tornado - Aug 25, 2004 8:25 pm (#553 of 2486)
Gemini... who is Kariya?



Solitaire - Aug 25, 2004 9:27 pm (#554 of 2486)
I don't think Hermione was really pointing out Harry's need to "play the hero." She just said he had a "saving people thing." It may be a matter of semantics, but I see "playing the hero" as attempting the derring-do and dangerous deeds for the kudos and gratitude.

I don't think Hermione believes, anymore than we do, that Harry needs or even wants to be perceived that way. She just knows that if he truly believes someone he loves is in danger, he will move heaven and earth to save whoever it is without necessarily stopping to think things through properly.

This "trend" in his life HAS come since Harry's entry into the WW, as he probably never had a chance or even a need to save anyone before then. But it does seem that HIS friends--Ron (the 2nd task), Ginny, Sirius--seem to need to be saved more frequently than other people's friends. We know that all but Ginny were not in real danger ... but Harry didn't know it then, did he? He was simply willing to do what needed to be done, even if it cost him his life (or his tournament.)

Solitaire



Gemini Wolfie - Aug 25, 2004 10:36 pm (#555 of 2486)
Tornedo, Paul Kariya is one of the biggest names in Ice Hockey and a good sporting family.

Good points Solitaire. I am of the opinion as well that Hermione has come to understand her two best friends very well. The way Hermione looks and tries to acquire the thinking Harry at times reminds me of the way Lupin looks and studies Sirius.



Prefect Marcus - Aug 26, 2004 11:12 am (#556 of 2486)
In point of fact, Solitaire, Ginny WAS in real danger. No, she wasn't in danger from the Basilisk, but Riddle was draining the life from her. Once it was all gone, Ginny would be dead and Riddle would be alive -- adding great strength to Voldemort according to Rowling.



Emiko - Aug 26, 2004 2:25 pm (#557 of 2486)
I think Solitaire was saying that of Harry's friends Ginny was the only one in danger- which is true, as you pointed out, Marcus.

I see Playing the Hero and Saving People Thing, as sort of the same thing. Yes, I agree that Playing the Hero can be a result of the need for praise etc. but that's sort of what we were talking about before. And yeah, Harry has a saving people thing, but it's that "thing" that has him "play the hero".



Where is Monkey? - Aug 26, 2004 3:22 pm (#558 of 2486)
ok, maybe this has been brought up before, but doesn't anyone think it's odd that Hermione is too scared to say Voldermort's name until OoP? She was Muggle born, and therefore only heard about him whilst reading her Hogwarts books at the age of 11. Not only that, but she is the most intelligent and logical student there!

It seems to me that she should be the one telling people that fear of the name only increases fear of the thing itself...



dragon keeper - Aug 26, 2004 3:38 pm (#559 of 2486)
Monkey, you're right. But I thought that she was telling people (or someone, at least) that fear of the name only increases fear of the thing itself BEFORE OotP. And I wondered what took her so long to come around...



Hermy-own - Aug 26, 2004 3:42 pm (#560 of 2486)
"But I thought that she was telling people (or someone, at least) that fear of the name only increases fear of the thing itself BEFORE OotP."

dragon slayer, she says this in CoS movie (Flourish and Blotts scene). I've glanced through the same scene in the book but can't find the quote. Must have been something Rowling wanted to add to the movie. Perhaps she wants us to view Hermione as..."fearless" (couldn't think of a more appropriate word)



dragon keeper - Aug 26, 2004 4:17 pm (#561 of 2486)
I could picture Hermoine saying that, so I knew that I had seen it in the movie, but I couldn't remember about the book.

Thanks hermy-own.



Where is Monkey? - Aug 26, 2004 4:31 pm (#562 of 2486)
It doesn't really matter when she said it, but the fact that she says it in the FILM and not the book is interesting! What I mean is that it seems hugely out of character when she says you-know-who, and shudders and the sound of His name. I really notice it every time I read the books...it just doesn't seem right!



The One - Aug 26, 2004 4:32 pm (#563 of 2486)
But I thought that she was telling people (or someone, at least) that fear of the name only increases fear of the thing itself BEFORE OotP.

Dumbledore says this in PS. Why the line goes to Hermione in the films I do not understand, as in the books she does fear the name until OotP,



dragon keeper - Aug 26, 2004 4:38 pm (#564 of 2486)
It seems like maybe she says You-Know-Who just to fit in with the wizarding world. You know? She reads all of the books and knows what is proper for a witch and wizard. Perhaps OotP is when Hermoine comes into her own and decides that she knows enough and can decide what is and is not proper. She feels like she fits in now, and has the right to say it. I don't know...



Where is Monkey? - Aug 26, 2004 4:44 pm (#565 of 2486)
Thata a good point, dragon. Perhaps she got so caought up in the 'fear' that she found it hard to change her ways.....perhaps JK uses this as a symbol of what most of the wizarding world thinks, especially the MoM?

They know the truth really (as Hermione knows she should use the name) but they are too set in their ways to admit it (as H has trouble changing her view).



Prefect Marcus - Aug 26, 2004 4:50 pm (#566 of 2486)
Dumbledore did say "Fear of a name only increases fear of the thing itself", in the seventeenth chapter of the first book.

I never had any problem with Hermione not saying the name until the fifth book. I've always assumed she was more concerned about upsetting others than the actual name. It wasn't until her fifteenth year that she decided to go ahead and use the word, no matter how much it upset others.



Where is Monkey? - Aug 26, 2004 5:04 pm (#567 of 2486)
she did flinch though, when she heard the name!



Prefect Marcus - Aug 26, 2004 5:14 pm (#568 of 2486)
Well, if you have been told repeatedly "Don't say that name. Don't say that name." And you are basically a stickler for rules, wouldn't you flinch to hear someone else say it?



Catherine - Aug 26, 2004 5:21 pm (#569 of 2486)
I would agree with Marcus on this point.

Hermione is hearing the equivalent of a "swear word" spoken casually. I think flinching is ok.



Star Crossed - Aug 26, 2004 6:51 pm (#570 of 2486)
I've always wondered something. How do muggleborns know about Voldemort? It's understandable she knows who You-Know-Who is, but I can't see there being a book written where Voldemort's name is written. It never would make it to the book shelves. When I read the books, I'm always waiting for someone (Especially Hermione in PS/SS when talking to Harry) say, "Wait, who's Voldemort?"



Gemini Wolfie - Aug 26, 2004 7:08 pm (#571 of 2486)
Don't forget that Hermione did not enter Hogwarts as the bravest and most fearlessness student. Breaking school rules and putting herself in danger was then out of her character. But she has come a long way since then, to the point where fearing Voldemort's name is more out of her character than her breaking school rules. So the fact that she finally gave in an said Voldemort's name is a testament to ever-growing fearlessness.

Star Crossed, that's a very good question about the books. I really have no idea myself. I'm wondering if the addition of "Lord" in front of Voldemort makes things okay. Or perhaps the historians that wrote those history books don't flinch at Voldemort's name. Could you imagine Professor Binns flinching?



Archangel - Aug 26, 2004 7:16 pm (#572 of 2486)
Hmmm... I don't know. I think it'll be perfectly fine to write down his name just like it's perfectly fine that Hitler's name is written down in history book. Speaking it loud enough for other wizards to hear is another matter. You don't exactly get scared and see other people's reaction when you're just reading a book containing his name. Also, I think Muggle-born wizards only associate fear with speaking Voldemort's name once they have been welcomed/initiated (?) in the WW.



Ginerva Weasley - Aug 26, 2004 7:36 pm (#573 of 2486)
I think that Hermione is afraid to speak the name because of the fact that she reads so much. She must have read about all the murders LV committed and the way he would torture people without so much as blinkng an eye. Even just reading about all those things would make me scared to even say his name, especially if you know (or find out) that other people are afraid too.



Archangel - Aug 26, 2004 7:44 pm (#574 of 2486)
I inclined to agree with your last statement Ginerva -- especially if you know (or find out) that other people are afraid too . Hermione (and most of the Muggle-born wizards/witches) are afraid to speak Voldemort's name because of the association that other wizards/witches have with him.

Maybe the books refer to him like so -- "Lord Voldermort, commonly known or referred to as You-Know-Who or He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named, ..." or something similar to impress upon the readers what the WW feel about him. It acts some sort of a disclaimer on the use of his name.

Hope that makes sense...



Star Crossed - Aug 26, 2004 8:10 pm (#575 of 2486)
I don't think so, Archangel. If they wouldn't even say his name in papers, I doubt they'd say it in books. Newspapers are very well known for writing whatever they want because they can. If the Minister of Magic quickly tries to retract the name he said ('Lord Thingy'), I don't think anyone would say it.



Czarina II - Aug 26, 2004 8:55 pm (#576 of 2486)
Well, in the early versions of the Bible (JUST AN EXAMPLE!!!), the name of God was generally written with just one letter or such. Perhaps the books Hermione reads mention "Lord Vldmt". Hermione is a smart girl and could extrapolate the vowels when she heard them.



Archangel - Aug 26, 2004 9:01 pm (#577 of 2486)
I took to the Lord Thingy in the Daily Prophet as part of Fudge's character to be sooo mortified of him. I still think that there are wizards/witches who are sensible and strong enough to write his proper name there. Also, I think Fudge, as Minister of Magic, doesn't really hold much sway over the people. People respect his title but not really him... hope that makes sense.



dragon keeper - Aug 27, 2004 9:36 am (#578 of 2486)
Wow, so many comments since I last posted, where do I begin?

I agree that Hermoine thought of saying Voldemort's name as similar to a swear word; she knew from her readings that it was improper and flinched when it was said. It was that she always followed the rules and she was shocked when others broke them. But as she grows up, she realizes that some rules can be broken and she is more defiant.

On the subject of muggles knowing about Voldemort, I was thinking that it would be okay to write Voldemort's name down because in PS/SS Harry asks Hagrid to write it down, (but Hagrid couldn't spell it, so he whispers the name)...just as long as it is not said out loud. But then I was also thinking that the WW wouldn't want to give too much information to the muggles so that they wouldn't find them out somehow. So how could the MoM say "yeah, there's this guy and he's so powerful that we don't say his name, so watch out." Hermoine knows because she read her wizarding books, but I doubt that her parents know who Voldemort is. I don't know, I'm just thinking out loud.



Emiko - Aug 27, 2004 12:51 pm (#579 of 2486)
I don't know, what would the WW write about LV? But then, Hermione says in PS/SS (before she and Harry are friends) that she's read all about him, and you can't really mention Harry Potter without also mentioning Lord Voldemort, so I agree that she probablly would learn about him there. But I don't think she knows much more than "Lord Voldemort, the most terrible wizard in the world, was vanquished by Harry Potter..." Because she's learning more about the times of LV along with Ron and Harry, whereas I think if she had really read up on the subject, she'd know it all already. And dragon slayer, I agree, it's unlikely that her parents know who Lord Voldemort is.



dragon keeper - Aug 27, 2004 1:21 pm (#580 of 2486)
Emiko, I agree with you, she learns as she goes along otherwise she would have been shouting out the answers if she knew them. But it makes you wonder what the other muggle-born students know, the ones who are not as studious as Hermoine.

Also, when Sirius was on the loose the WW tried to warn the muggles, "...The public is warned that Black is armed and extremely dangerous...any sighting of Black should be reported immediately." (PoA p. 16-17) and Vernon gets upset that they don't report where he escaped from, just that he is on the loose. So I would imagine that they would have to warn them about Voldy in some way, but it would be tricky. They wouldn't give too many details...



Emiko - Aug 27, 2004 7:26 pm (#581 of 2486)
That's a good point- except Voldy wouldn't have been on the news for the muggle students, he was vanquished the year they were born! For muggles in general, though, yeah, I suppose they'd heard of them but I'd guess they'd use a psudonym or something. I mean, muggles would have thought the reporters' gone mad if they started warning them about someone named Lord Voldemort!



Sir Tornado - Aug 27, 2004 8:59 pm (#582 of 2486)
How about Tom Riddle? Well, DD does say very few people know TR is LV, but then the reporters would won't they? They would think Tom Riddle is a pseudonym.



Emiko - Aug 27, 2004 9:19 pm (#583 of 2486)
Wow. Didn't even think of that. Nice, Tornedo!



Star Crossed - Aug 28, 2004 12:22 pm (#584 of 2486)
I don't think so, Tornedo. If the reporters knew, then they would have shared it with the world, and then it would be widely known.



Saud - Aug 28, 2004 3:23 pm (#585 of 2486)
Nice theory there tornedo. Although its sad Owen left for real.



Emiko - Aug 28, 2004 6:51 pm (#586 of 2486)
Well, the reporters didn't have to know the truth about LV or "Tom Riddle", the Prime Minister (who apparently already knows about the wizarding world) could have done a press release with information telling muggles to beware. Either way, Muggles must have noticed something going on, Sirius says in GoF that there were lots of Muggle killings too, and doubtless, Muggle tortures, and Muggle baiting, etc. when the DEs were free to roam.



Solitaire - Aug 28, 2004 8:34 pm (#587 of 2486)
As soon as Hermione got her notification, she probably went straight to Diagon Alley to get her books. You notice that on the train she tells Ron and Harry "I've learned all our course books by heart, of course, I just hope it will be enough--" (PS/SS Ch 6, p 132, US ed.).

In that same scene, she introduces herself to Ron and Harry and asks who they are. When Harry tells her his name, she says, "Are you really? I know all about you, of course--I got a few extra books for background reading, and you're in Modern Magical History and The Rise and Fall of the Dark Arts and Great Wizarding Events of the Twentieth Century.

As they are entering the Great Hall to be sorted, she mentions having read Hogwarts: A History (PS/SS Ch 7, p 145, US ed.). I bet she has read it all. In Muggle school, she probably took an Evelyn Wood speed-reading course.

Now, those books may or may not have given the information that people do not speak the name of Voldemort. If they did, trust me ... Hermione would know! In fact, I am willing to bet that she knows as much as or more than most of the kids who are entering Hogwarts about general wizarding history--even those from Wizarding families. There will be exceptions, but I bet they are few.

I gathered from Dumbledore's remarks to the Weasleys at the end of CoS that not many people knew Tom Riddle and Voldemort were one and the same. It doesn't seem to be knowledge Riddle himself would have wanted known, given his heritage. Then again, when a Dark Wizard is that powerful, maybe his heritage doesn't matter, since he can AK anyone who doesn't like it.

As for alerting the Muggle world that Voldemort was dangerous and on the loose, what good would it do? What defense would they possess against someone like Voldemort, if he decided to kill them? DEs might be caught and punished, but who--even among the Wizarding community--would have been able to capture Voldemort at the height of his power, before his fall? I've often wondered this.

Solitaire

Edited



weasley by nature - Aug 28, 2004 9:33 pm (#588 of 2486)
Hermione may learn about the history of the wizarding world, but she is not acquainted with the norms of the wizarding world (house-elves, the term "mudbloods," etc). I think that now after five years she is pretty much one of them, but when she arrived she wasn't totally aware of everything from some history books she read.

Who would be able to defeat Voldemort? Dumbledore of course. Especially Dumbledore with the Order along with him.



Solitaire - Aug 28, 2004 9:50 pm (#589 of 2486)
Too bad he didn't defeat him ... before the prophecy.



Remus J. Lupin - Aug 29, 2004 10:21 am (#590 of 2486)
to everyone out there, i just want to say: hermione loves ron,hermione loves ron, hermione loves ron, hermione loves ron, hermione loves ron, hermione loves ron, i'll say it again, hermione loves ron!!!!!!!

thank you



Weeny Owl - Aug 29, 2004 10:49 am (#591 of 2486)
Remus J. Lupin:

You might want to check out the thread where relationships are discussed: Dr Filibuster "'Ship-'Ship (Exploring Relationships)" 8/30/03 6:05pm

Also, on the subject of capitalization and such, you might want to check out the thread about the Philosophy of the Forum: Lexicon Steve "-- Philosophy of this Forum" 8/21/04 2:13pm



Emiko - Aug 29, 2004 7:28 pm (#592 of 2486)
Nice, Solitaire. I forgot that minor detail- of course it would have been pointless to warn muggles, even so, though, wouldn't it have been the proper thing to do?

I dunno, Remus, why'd she kiss Harry at the end of GoF then?

Oh, and about dumbledore- everyone seems to be under the impression that Dumbledore should have/ could have killed LV, either before or after Harry... But doesn't the prophecy guarantee that Dumbledore CAN NOT kill/defeat LV? And even if it was before the prophecy was written down, wouldn't the premise of it still hold, since LV hadn't been defeated?



weasley by nature - Aug 29, 2004 7:33 pm (#593 of 2486)
Well if you are implying that Dumbledore didn't defeat Voldemort because he couldn't defeat Voldemort, I would respond that he beat Grindelwald, and that Voldemort wasn't exactly challenging Dumbledore to duels. Dumbledore had to work behind the scenes (i.e. create the Order of the Phoenix) in order to defeat Voldemort.

"As for alerting the Muggle world that Voldemort was dangerous and on the loose, what good would it do? What defense would they possess against someone like Voldemort, if he decided to kill them? DEs might be caught and punished, but who--even among the Wizarding community--would have been able to capture Voldemort at the height of his power, before his fall? I've often wondered this."

Alerting the Muggle community would help them because if Voldemort was spotted then they could inform someone, but I don't think that the muggle community was informed because then his defeat would've been on the news (in select parts). Also, Voldemort's appearance is scarier than Michael Jackson's and would be hard to explain. What I was saying was that Voldemort's reign would not have gone on forever. 1)His followers were few and far between--even from pureblood promoters, and so he was greatly outnumbered. 2)Dumbledore (who is, as far as I'm concerned, as, if not more, powerful than Voldemort) was working against him along with the Order. 3)And the Ministry was aware of him and after him.



TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 29, 2004 8:13 pm (#594 of 2486)
"Also, Voldemort's appearance is scarier than Michael Jackson's"

Thank you for the SPEW moment!



Sir Tornado - Aug 29, 2004 8:36 pm (#595 of 2486)
I would like to say something off topic here. Some one had mentioned that LV's picture would've been shown to muggles. Firstly, I'd like to ask a question, how popular was TV news in the 70s in Britan? Next, what would the muggles think of LV's appearance? A slit for a nose; Face whiter than a skull; Blood-shot red eyes; long fingers; wearing wizard robes; wouldn't muggles get scared?



Hermy-own - Aug 30, 2004 2:29 am (#596 of 2486)
Something makes me doubt that the muggles would believe the LV stories - most of them weren't even aware of the wizarding world. Imagine if something like that happened today. I mean, how many of us would believe a sketchy CNN report asking us to look out for Narnia's most wanted villain?

Having said that, there is no doubt that if LV were to show himself to muggles, he would provoke as much fear within them as he does with the WW.



Time Traveler - Aug 30, 2004 3:20 am (#597 of 2486)
Having said that, there is no doubt that if LV were to show himself to muggles, he would provoke as much fear within them as he does with the WW.

Well, I doubt it in my country.. If LV appeared, people would flock to him with digital cameras or camera-phones, shrieking "What a great cosple(costum play)!"
Sorry!:-)



Phoenix song - Aug 30, 2004 8:20 am (#598 of 2486)
Twinkling Blue Eyes: Sorry, I'm sure that I'm just being dense! But, what does "having a SPEW moment" mean? Does it just refer to Hermione blindly plunging ahead with SPEW?



TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 30, 2004 8:23 am (#599 of 2486)
No, it meant I was drinking when I read that, thought it was hilarious, and SPEWed my drink everywhere!

It's a running joke on the Forum.



Kasse - Aug 30, 2004 9:54 am (#600 of 2486)
Phonex to spew means 1. To send or force out in or as if in a stream; eject forcefully or in large amounts: a volcano that spewed molten lava; spewed invective at his opponent. 2. To vomit or otherwise cast out through the mouth.

That is why in the book Hermione tells Ron "it's not spew it is S.P.E.W" and yes Twinkling was right it is a running joke on the Forum.

back to the topic at hand....

I think that the muggle world could have been warned about Tom Riddle without a picture being shown, you know just telling people to be cautious. Just a thought.....

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True Love - Aug 30, 2004 5:22 pm (#601 of 2486)
Why are you discussing LV and Tom Riddle? What does that have to do with Hermione?



TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 30, 2004 5:31 pm (#602 of 2486)
I think we were thinking along the lines of warning the muggle world about Moldy Voldy, aka Tom Riddle, much in the same way the muggle world was warned about Sirius Black's escape. With Hermione's parents being muggles we assumed it might be a concern of hers.

We just had a few SPEW moments in-between thoughts.

Thank you schoff, now I remember where we were...I think her reluctance was based on "learning factors".



Phoenix song - Aug 30, 2004 9:13 pm (#603 of 2486)
Thank you for the information Twinkling Blue Eyes and Kasse. I haven't been on the forum for very long and wasn't aware of the meaning of SPEW in THAT sense. I had seen it a few times and wanted to be more clear. I can see that it makes perfect sense now. To SPEW: to forcefully eject one's butterbeer after being caught unaware with a comical joke, image, or thought.

I am glad that I asked about the SPEW thing even though it has made rather clear my newbie status. I was never quite sure as to why Hermione didn't like her pet project referred to as SPEW. It would seem to me that it would be preferable to say the word "SPEW" instead of "S. P. E. W." Of course, I am American and I find that generally we are quite addicted to our group names spelling out another word. (Ex. MADD, SADD, etc.)

Thanks for your help!



Solitaire - Aug 30, 2004 9:59 pm (#604 of 2486)
Good point, True Love. If you go back to post #587, you will see that we were discussing the extent of Hermione's pre-Hogwarts knowledge about Harry and Voldemort and the wars. I think they slid into Voldemort a few posts later.



Remus J. Lupin - Aug 31, 2004 10:50 am (#605 of 2486)
Emiko, I think number one, she felt sorry for him, number two, Hermione and Harry have more of a brother/sister type relationship...and she kissed Ron to, in OotP before the Quidditch match.....



Emiko - Aug 31, 2004 8:21 pm (#606 of 2486)
Tee Hee, I knew you were going to point that one out! I re-read that part yesterday... Good point. I don't think that Hermione and Harry will get together, mainly because of all of JKR's "clues". But I'm wondering (if this question fits on this thread) that if H and R do get together, what will that do to Harry? It'd kind of make him the odd ball out. I mean, I'm sure they'd try their best, but there's always the knowledge that his two best friends were snogging when he isn't around. Do you think Hermione knows that?



Sir Tornado - Aug 31, 2004 8:35 pm (#607 of 2486)
I partly agree with Remus.



Solitaire - Sep 1, 2004 1:41 am (#608 of 2486)
This essay about Harry and Hermione is worth a read.



Sir Tornado - Sep 1, 2004 1:59 am (#609 of 2486)
I'm sure it is. It was one of the reason I used to be a H/Hr 'Shipper.



Chris. - Sep 1, 2004 2:43 pm (#610 of 2486)
Could we keep the 'shipping subject to the 'Ship thread? Thank you.

Do we think Hermione is the next McGonagall? Or has Minerva a sense of humour, which Hermione has not?



Hermy-own - Sep 1, 2004 3:29 pm (#611 of 2486)
I like the Hermione/Minerva comparison, Prongs - they do have a few similarities.

Hermione's development as a character has been extensively discussed on this thread but one thing I doubt we have dwelt on is her sense of humour (or lack thereof). Although she does not yet possess the kind of wit that comes so naturally to Minerva, there's nothing to say she cannot also develop that aspect of her character. I think a few Minervaesque one-liners would suit Hermy very well in HBP. Could come in handy during verbal battles with the usual suspects: Snape, Malfoy, Pansy etc.



Weeny Owl - Sep 1, 2004 3:50 pm (#612 of 2486)
Hermione did have one line that I loved. It was during the Christmas break when she showed up after Arthur had been attacked and Harry was hiding. Harry said that no one would look at him, and Ron and Ginny said he was the one who wasn't looking at anyone. Hermione said something about how maybe they were each looking at different times and kept missing each other. I thought that was a little funny.



Solitaire - Sep 1, 2004 4:40 pm (#613 of 2486)
Hermy-own, I think Hermione may be a bit in awe of her professors, which leads me to believe it will be a while before she uses any humor on them. However, I thought her remark about Ron having the emotional range of a teaspoon was a nice, sarcastic little zinger. It shows her wit is sharp enough.

I think McGonagall has that same kind of wit. Her manner can be a little dignified and majestic from the students' point of view; but when I consider her as a teacher, I think she has a very "sneaky" sense of humor ... meaning it sneaks up on us.

I don't have my books here at school, so please forgive me if I mix up book and movie events. I believe she makes a stern announcement to her first years (Harry's class)--during their first lesson--that there will be no messing around in her class. She then proceeds to turn her desk into a pig. Now, I don't know about YOU, but I'd think that was mighty funny!

Remember, too, the instance of her passing Peeves in the hall--where he was trying to unscrew a chandelier to fall on Umbridge's head--and telling him out of the corner of her mouth that "it unscrews the other way." Didn't McGonagall also send a student to fetch Umbridge to deal with a stray firecracker that was zooming around her room, because she wasn't sure she had the *hem! hem!* authority to get rid of it? And who could forget her regrets that she couldn't run and watch Peeves whack Umbridge on the head all the way out of the school, because Peeves had taken her walking stick (with which to do the whacking).

I think McGonagall knows how to be funny when it is warranted, and HER brand of humor has wit and intelligence attached to it. I suspect that Hermione may eventually become like this. She would probably make a great "punster," because she has the intelligence and knowledge.



Hermy-own - Sep 1, 2004 5:07 pm (#614 of 2486)
That comment made also me laugh, Weeny Owl.

From OotP, Chapter 23 (Christmas on the Closed Ward):

"Well, you have!" *Ginny* said. "And you won't look at any of us!"
"It's you lot who won't look at me!" said Harry angrily.
"Maybe you're taking it in turns to look, and keep missing each other," suggested Hermione, the corners of her mouth twitching. [Emphasis mine. You can make what you want of it Wink]

Edit: Nice post, Solitaire.



Emiko - Sep 1, 2004 8:36 pm (#615 of 2486)
I think Hermione has a fine sense of humor, as the examples have pointed out. I just think that so many parts of HP are serious, where Harry is in trouble, or needs help, or needs advice from Hermione, that it doesn't always have a chance to come out.



Solitaire - Sep 1, 2004 9:18 pm (#616 of 2486)
Thanks, Hermy.

Emiko, I agree with you. I think we may see more of her wit in upcoming books. I do believe she will exhibit more McGonagall-like humor, too, because of her intelligence.

As I've grown older and more (*ahem!*) dignified and mature, I've developed a strong sense of the ridiculous. It comes in VERY handy, because I teach junior high language arts. Believe me, a sense of silliness goes a LONG way toward making things like grammar lessons palatable and memorable.

My point is that I am secure enough not to care if I look silly or my students laugh at me. But at Hermione's age I wasn't quite ready to be the center of a joke. Give her a little time.

Solitaire



Weeny Owl - Sep 1, 2004 10:12 pm (#617 of 2486)
But at Hermione's age I wasn't quite ready to be the center of a joke. Give her a little time.

There is a great deal to be said for getting older. Some things that seem so important at fourteen don't mean anything at forty.

Hermione is still fairly new to the Wizarding World, and I believe that's a lot of why she studies so hard. She doesn't want to be seen as not belonging. As she becomes more familiar with her new world, she's starting to loosen up a bit. I hope we'll see a lot of funny lines from her in the last two books.



Solitaire - Sep 1, 2004 10:26 pm (#618 of 2486)
And in the last two books, something tells me we are going to be needing some "serious humor." Pardon my oxymoron!



Casey - Sep 2, 2004 7:49 am (#619 of 2486)
I've said before that I thought the similarities between McGonagall and Hermione were very interesting. But, I'm wondering if it's just a coincidence or if it's a clue, either a look into Hermione's future or McGonagall's past.



Madam Rosmerta21 - Sep 2, 2004 8:29 am (#620 of 2486)
I personally also believe that Hermione is afraid of Voldemort. She has seen what has happened to one of her closest friends, Harry. She has come to harm herself and watched her closest friends come to harm in the fifth book. She even wouldn't say his name until (I believe) the end of book four and then with a stutter.

I don't believe that the way to be brave is to never show fear, but in Hermione's case, I think that she's just not the type of person that typically wears her emotions on her sleeve. Just because she doesn't run screaming into the night doesn't mean she's not afraid.

I also call your attention to the part in the fifth book where hermione gets hit with that slashing curse that makes her fall unconscious. What was Harry's reaction? "She can't be dead! She can't be dead! It's my fault if she's dead..." (I just pulled that out of my memory, so it's probably not exact, but close, I hope!) I think they all got a much better understanding of just what a war with Voldemort will mean at the end of the fifth book. What's important is not who has the most fear, but how that fear will make them react to the events that will envelope them.

In the case of Hermione Granger, I believe it will make her more eager to fight. Her fear, like the fear of most of the main group, lies not for herself, but for her loved ones...



Solitaire - Sep 3, 2004 12:04 am (#621 of 2486)
Just because she doesn't run screaming into the night doesn't mean she's not afraid.

If you look at the 6 kids who went to the Ministry--especially the Gryffindors--all of them were afraid. (It's hard to tell with Luna ... she is so calm.) You don't need courage or bravery if you AREN'T afraid. You need it when you ARE afraid! What sets our heroes apart is the fact that they know what could happen to them, but they are still willing to face their fears and do what (they think) needs to be done. That is true Gryffindor courage ... even in Luna, I guess!

Solitaire



Time Traveler - Sep 3, 2004 2:55 am (#622 of 2486)
Hi, today I want to talk about Hermione's knitting skill. This may not be an exact Hermione question, but I don't know where to post. So, here, some quotes from Ch.13, OoP;

(...) she(Hermy) pulled out two misshapen wooly objects, (...)

"They're hats for house-elves," (...) "I did them over the summer. I'm a really slow knitter without magic, but now I'm back at school I should be able to make more."

My question is about the quality of things she has knitted. I sometimes knit simple things like a comforter and I find it very mathematical. (A good mathematician can design a new way of knitting.) All you have to do to knit a thing is to make a design, to learn the order of weaving needles and threads, and to move your hands properly. Once you learn the movement you need, it becomes a bit automatical, like riding a bicycle. However, I will compare it to paper work on the whole.

Now, I believe that Hermione is very familiar with figures and waves her wand very sensitively and accurately. So I wonder why on earth she is so poor at knitting. (I don't think that she is just a slow knitter. IMO two misshapen wooly objects are her works during summer.;-<) I'm not a good knitter, I don't like delicate handworks, but I usually can knit things not elaborately but in normal shapes..:-)

Ok, let's say handknitting is more than twiddling needles.:-) But the problem remains yet. Hermione might not be a good knitter with her bare hands, but she is such a good WITCH! Why does her knitting MAGIC perform so badly? Is this just a comic example that reveals she is not a housekeeping person like, well, Tonks?

Then, why are these household magics different from other magics? I can't imagine Hermione making a frog poor at swimming or an electric calculator giving wrong figures.Very Happy Oh, well, I suspect that I would cook a wonderful dish even with a magic wand, though...



Hermy-own - Sep 3, 2004 6:04 am (#623 of 2486)
Why does her knitting MAGIC perform so badly?

If I'm not mistaken, Hermione knitted the two misshapen hats at home, where she is not allowed to use magic. After she returned to Hogwarts, the quality of her hats improved because she was using magic to make them. I don't think we can say that her "knitting magic" performed badly (or well); all we know is that it allowed her to make better hats than she would have done without magic.

(Hope that makes sense?)



TwinklingBlueEyes - Sep 3, 2004 6:07 am (#624 of 2486)
I find it remarkable that Hermione had time to knit at all.



Time Traveler - Sep 3, 2004 6:18 am (#625 of 2486)
hermy-own, sorry, but I can't find the exact quote. As far as I remember, her hats with magic were nearly as good as those she made at home at first. Yes, I remember that her hats and socks were improved, but I think Harry said something meaning "now they were looking like hats and socks much more than before." Somehow I think her knitting skill has never been perfect so far..

Sorry if I misremember things.:-)



The One - Sep 3, 2004 6:24 am (#626 of 2486)
I do not have the books here, but it was something like: "almost always possible to tell the socks from the hats".

Improving, but not perfect. :-)

So I wonder why on earth she is so poor at knitting.

I do not know much about knitting, but do you know if JKR do?

I only take it to show that Hermione is not a "housewife" kind of girl, and not much into this kind of girlish activities, but she nevertheless does it if the purpose is important enough.



Time Traveler - Sep 3, 2004 6:52 am (#627 of 2486)
Oh, thanks, The One. I also found out a qoute. Ch.14, right before Percy's letter arrives.

as a pair of knitting needles flashed in midair in front of her, now knitting a pair of shapeless elf socks.

Anyway, I agree with you, The One, but the household magic thing is unsolved yet..:-( Perhaps is this kind of magic related to their ability in Muggle way? Uh-oh, now I really wonder the strength of the magic house-elves use.



Solitaire - Sep 3, 2004 7:24 am (#628 of 2486)
I suppose that even doing "house-holdy" things with magic takes practice. Or perhaps the magical skill is only as accomplished as Hermione could do if she were doing it herself without magic (just guessing here). Remember that, while Tonks was able to get Harry's clothes to "pack" into his trunk, they were messy rather than folded the way her mom's were. And when she "scourgified" Hedwig's cage, it didn't get all that clean. I suspect Tonks isn't exactly the Domestic Diva type.

Hermione likes to be good at things she considers important, so she will get better if knitting is something that is important to her. If she decides it is not all that important, she will probably won't bother to become an ace.

Solitaire



The One - Sep 3, 2004 7:56 am (#629 of 2486)
I found the exact quote:

OotP Chapter 16:

However, Hermione, who was taking more subjects than either of them, had not only finished all her homework but was also finding time to knit more elf clothes. Harry had to admit that she was getting better; it was now almost always possible to distinguish between the hats and the socks.

Just to show how clever I am! :-)



Emiko - Sep 3, 2004 7:36 pm (#630 of 2486)
I have tried knitting only once, and the result was a tangled mass of yarn that I had to give up. Ever since, I've had great admiration for those who can knit, and have been loathe to ever pick up knitting needles again. I disagree with Time Traveler, knitting is very hard. Some people are good, others (like me, and Hermione) aren't. Her knitting w/ out magic was abyssmal, but I don't think that really means anything. And her knitting w/ magic quickly improved. It sounds like it'd be quite complicated to bewitch to inanimate objects (knitting needles) to follow a distinct pattern on a hat. Especially since when making hats and socks they're not just doing the same thing over and over again. The bad origionals could just be Hermione getting the hang of the spell. After all, we don't see any other students doing anything of the sort.



Weeny Owl - Sep 3, 2004 8:02 pm (#631 of 2486)
I've never done any knitting, but I do like to crochet now and then, and it took me quite a while and loads of horrid mistakes before I could do anything halfway decent. I didn't start crocheting until I was in my mid-thirties, though.

I think her continuing and improving is part of her basic nature. She just refuses to give up.



Emiko - Sep 5, 2004 8:29 pm (#632 of 2486)
Good point, Weeny Owl. Her determination to master knitting really is an insight into Hermione. She hasn't been really terrible at anything before (if we don't count divination), perhaps, unknown to Harry and Ron, she's terrible at lots of things (like tranfiguration and arithmacy) but just works so hard, they never know.



Time Traveler - Sep 6, 2004 1:16 am (#633 of 2486)
Hi, the knitting topic I brought was really well debated, and I'm very impressed.:-) And I have another topic today. Some people discussed about Harry's future job in the Harry Potter thread, and I said for the MOM job, Hermione would be good. Some people doubted this, because Hermoine's blood status as a Muggle-born could be against her. (Her gender seems not very troublesome, as someone informed that there were many witch MOMs..)

However, I don't think that her blood status will be a matter for her to be a MOM.. I don't know whether there was a Muggle-born MOM or not, but even if there was no single Muggle-born MOM, I don't think it will be a big deal. See, I'm a Muggle, so I don't know about the WW much, but it seems to me that LV and the DEs are hated by most Wizards. At least, they don't want to support them in public. (Even DEs mind it. Cowards!Very Happy) That is, to me, they don't think to despise half-bloods and mudbloods is not very acceptable and desirable among normal sound wizards. (I've never seen other students dislike Hermione or Dean because of their blood status, of course, except some Slytherins.:-()

However, strictly speaking, we don't know any average grown-up wizard or witch in particular. Almost every wizards we have met(Harry has met) takes very clear side in this war; DD's side or LV's side. (Or Fudge's side?) So, there may be hidden discrimination among average grown-up wizards. But this will change through this war. Of course, I believe that Bloodicism will be generally attacked in the WW.

Personally, I also think Hermione will gain a reputation as one of the heroes in defeating LV, or at last as a passionate Anti-discrimination campaigner.:-)

To sum up, I think that Hermione CAN be a good MOM, of course, if she wants the job.Very Happy



Natasha - Sep 6, 2004 1:53 am (#634 of 2486)
Hermione doesn't strike me as a person who would want to be MOM. I think she will probably start a small buisness, or maybe try to promote S.P.E.W. But if she did, it would be a good idea to change the name Wink



Hermy-own - Sep 6, 2004 8:12 am (#635 of 2486)
Being the MoM, or at least a major player in the WW, would give Hermione greater scope to influence the WW with her ideals on equality and fairness. I think it will be this, rather than a Fudge-like craving for power, that would attract Hermione to the MoM job.

Would Hermione's muggle-born status limit her chances of being MoM?

Not as much as we might think. Voldemort and his supporters are the main reason why heritage ("mud", half and pure-blood) is such an issue today in the WW. They believe that muggle-borns and half-bloods are abominations and are not averse to using torture (The Longbottoms) and murder (Regulus Black) against those who challenge these beliefs.

I have a feeling that LV's regime will be quashed, and once it is, the WW's number one source of discrimination will be removed.

By the time Hermione is old enough to consider the MoM post, relations between muggle-borns, half-bloods and pure-bloods should have improved a great deal. You never know, her (or anyone else) being muggle-born might not even be an issue in 10 or 20 years time. Let's hope it isn't.

Hermy.



Steve Newton - Sep 6, 2004 8:19 am (#636 of 2486)
Hermy-own, I'm not sure that Voldemort and his supporters are the main reason why heritage ("mud", half and pure-blood) is such an issue today in the WW. I think that they are just taking up, and extending, an issue in the WW that has been around for at least a thousand years.



Hermy-own - Sep 6, 2004 8:53 am (#637 of 2486)
You raise a good point, Steve. This issue is likely to have been around long before LV surfaced, I have to agree with that. However, I still maintain that the extent to which "mud"/half bloods are discriminated against would be much lower in the absence of LV and his regime.

Take this scenario:
Wilma the Witch is an impartial pure-blood who is keen on voting in the next elections. The best candidate, in her opinion, happens to be a half-blood but she dares not openly show her support for this candidate - what if Death Eaters were to find out? In the end she votes for the popular pure-blood candidate and takes care to inform Lucious Malfoy of her "loyalty".

Or this one:
Wally the Wizard is a muggle-born who has always wanted to be the Minister for Magic but fearing he may become a target for the Dark Lord he chooses not to pursue his childhood dream. Instead he gets a job making fireworks for the Weasley twins in Diagon Alley.

This shows that LV's regime can really influence the way people live thier lives. Muggle-borns and Half-bloods would be better off in the absence of this influence and this is why I believe (and hope) that Hermione's background will not hamper her chances of being MoM in the future.

Hermy.



Solitaire - Sep 6, 2004 9:32 am (#638 of 2486)
What will happen when the faithful DEs who are so into their "pure-blood" superiority theories learn that Voldemort is not pure-blood?

You raise an interesting point with Wilma, Hermy-own, because pure-bloods who don't care about "pure-bloodedness" are treated with the same disdain as Muggle-borns and half-bloods. Cases in point: Sirius Black and the Weasleys are viewed as traitors.

Even Percy attributes his father's lack of advancement in the Ministry to his Muggle-loving ways. And the pure-bloods like Malfoy and his ilk continue to disparage a great Wizard like Dumbledore because he accepts and embraces all who want to be a part of things. He appears to see Wizards as just one more group in a world of diversity which includes all magical and non-magical creatures as well as all Muggles.

It's like any group of people on any issue. As long as those who CAN make a difference are either afraid to take a stand or content to stand quietly and simply despise those DO discriminate, nothing will change.

I'm not sure I see Hermione in the MoM position at any time in the future, although her heritage would certainly give her unique qualifications. She currently lacks the wisdom and maturity for the spot, but by the time she is of age, she should have "arrived" there. She just doesn't strike me as a bureaucratic type. On the other hand, I think she would be a wonderful future Headmistress of Hogwarts.

Solitaire



Agramante - Sep 6, 2004 10:08 am (#639 of 2486)
At least some of the Death Eaters know that Voldemort's not a pureblood. Not only did at least some of them notice the name on the headstone, and hear Voldemort say he needed his father's bone, in book 5, but Malfoy even had Riddle's old diary! How could he not know? It's an easy parallel to make, between Voldemort & co. and the Nazis-Hitler, exponent of Aryan supremacy, didn't come close to fitting the stereotype of Aryan appearance.

What does Hermione's future hold? If she resembles a female or two I know, she might want to become headmaster of Hogwarts someday.

One of the most heartwarming things I find in her character--aside from her genuine affection for her friends--is her insecurity. She seems to know from the start that her bookishness is a weakness, but she clings to it like most children do a stuffed animal. Especially early on, she retreats to study when confronted with any kind of uncertainty, a charming sign of fear.



Agramante - Sep 6, 2004 10:26 am (#640 of 2486)
Oops, Solitaire, you made the very same guess as I did about H's future, right above me...well, at least we seem to be on the same page about that ; )...



Solitaire - Sep 6, 2004 10:51 am (#641 of 2486)
Agramante, I think Hermione would be a great Headmistress when she has had time to mature a bit. She has many of the qualities Dumbledore possesses. I do think she may have greater deference for rules than he has, but we have seen her relax a bit in that area, too, when it is warranted.

She is intelligent and creative, and she seems interested in the welfare of all members of the magical world--not just the wizards. Dumbledore is certainly her hero and role model, although I can see her taking a more active role in things than he does.

I think she has an innate sense of fairness and would demand this of her faculty as well as her students.

Solitaire



Agramante - Sep 6, 2004 10:56 am (#642 of 2486)
Yes, and she has the first requirement for being a good teacher: she's a genuine student. She wants desperately to learn. That and her loyalty I think are her two strongest traits.



Weeny Owl - Sep 6, 2004 12:26 pm (#643 of 2486)
I don't see Hermione as wanting the job of Minister, but I do think she'll try to promote equality for the oppressed. That includes not only house-elves, but also Merpeople, werewolves, etc.

I could see her as Headmistress eventually. She would probably do something radical as far as house unity, and maybe even change the way students are sorted.



Betelgeuse Black - Sep 6, 2004 1:44 pm (#644 of 2486)
Someone has suggested that Dumbledore may have to leave Hogwarts soon. If he dies during the series, McGonnagal(sp?) could take over and be an able Headmistress. If Hermione was older, I think she'd be an excellent teacher. With time and maturity, she would be an excellent headmistress.

I'm not claiming these ideas. They are suggested above. I'm just agreeing with them in a rather wordy way.

Betelgeuse



TwinklingBlueEyes - Sep 6, 2004 3:32 pm (#645 of 2486)
Soli, "... I think Hermione would be a great Headmistress when she has had time to mature a bit." I think you are quite right, but she may have to wait awhile for McG to step down. After all, she is Deputy Headmistress. Good thing I am part muggle, but logically, if she's in line at approx. 75 years old, and logic and facts also dictate women live longer than men, given that Dumbledore is 150??

Might be a bit of a wait. :-)

Oops edit: I do not think she will be one to go down in the war.

Butterbeer anyone?



Emiko - Sep 7, 2004 8:05 pm (#646 of 2486)
Well, while I think that Hermione would make a great headmistress, I'm not so sure that that's what she wants now, or in the near future. DD became headmaster after he did loads of interesting stuff like the philosopher's stone and Grindelwald... and I'm sure much, much more. There was a portrait in DDs office who was also a MoM, right? Couldn't Hermione be both? I definitely see Hermione in the ministry. Actually, I see her reforming the MoM, and "taking SPEW to a new level." But, in her later years, headmistress could be the thing for her, seeing as how much she loves Hogwarts, and school in general.



Solitaire - Sep 7, 2004 9:25 pm (#647 of 2486)
Emiko, she may not want to be Headmistress. I just said I thought she possessed the qualities necessary to be a good one. I think the high value she places on a well-rounded education really would make her uniquely qualified.

Supposing her to be interested in politics (I don't really see it), she would still be a bit young to take over Fudge's job upon graduation--although no one disputes that she is already far more qualified than either he or Umbridge to do it.

Personally, I would like to see her try a few different things before settling down to just one. I think she would make an excellent Muggle-relations officer. She could really get Arthur's office up to speed.

Solitaire



The One - Sep 7, 2004 9:40 pm (#648 of 2486)
Supposing her to be interested in politics (I don't really see it),

I don't know. SPEW is really about politics, isn't it?



Solitaire - Sep 7, 2004 9:58 pm (#649 of 2486)
Is it? I am interested in a lot of social issues, but I do not consider myself especially political.



Weeny Owl - Sep 7, 2004 10:12 pm (#650 of 2486)
Many social issures are political, so S.P.E.W. can be both.

Hermione probably won't stick with just one career, at least if she can achieve her goals with the first one. Dilys Derwent was a Healer before she became Headmistress of Hogwarts, and I could see Hermione doing any number of things and then possibly becoming Headmistress when she's much older.

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Leila 2X4B - Sep 7, 2004 10:15 pm (#651 of 2486)
SPEW is so very political, at least the SPEW Hermione talks about. *winks at Tim, Catherine, and other SPEWtacular posters*. Society for the Promotion of Elvish Welfare(I think)sounds like a movement to me. I think the fact that she wanted to take SPEW further after school means that she is interested in politics, not to mention her interest in equal rights for Giants, half-breeds(*cringes whilst writing that*), werewolves, and other underrepresented factions.

Leila



Emiko - Sep 8, 2004 8:03 pm (#652 of 2486)
I guess Hermione's interested in the politics of creating change, not the "politics" of Fudge trying to stay in office. Sometimes when I think of politics I think of sucking-up etc. but that's just a product of newspapers and people's opinion. Politics is actually about changing the world, I agree, SPEW is political.

And Solitaire, sorry for the misunderstanding, I gotcha now!



Solitaire - Sep 9, 2004 12:27 am (#653 of 2486)
No problem, Emiko! Hermione is such an interesting character that it is fun to speculate about all of her future possibilities ... assuming she lives to fulfill them!

And I agree with your political definitions. I suppose I tend to separate "politics" from social issues, because I tend to think of most politicians as self-serving and corrupt rather than truly interested in helping anyone. That is, I would say Fudge and Umbridge are politicians, whereas Hermione is a social activist who is truly interested in the welfare of the elves. I guess it is a semantics issue. Smile

Solitaire



TomProffitt - Sep 9, 2004 5:27 am (#654 of 2486)
I have had two friends in my life who eventually became lobbyists. One from the political left, the other from the right. Both had a mastery of "double-speak." They were quite capable of vehemently arguing for policies they really were indifferent toward, but which would further the eventual adoption of their ultimate goal. Each were capable of viewing a political battle as coloring the opposition or self a certain way in the public perception without reference to actual truth. To them it was a game played with specific rules.

I was quite astonished later in life when I was finally able to recognize the underlying philosophies of the two major US political parties and observe how little they are actually discussed.

I think Hermione is quite capable of playing this game, but I'm not certain if she would find the subtle disguising of the truth palatable.



Solitaire - Sep 9, 2004 10:10 am (#655 of 2486)
I think Hermione is quite capable of playing this game, but I'm not certain if she would find the subtle disguising of the truth palatable.

This is pretty much how I feel, Tom. She certainly has the intelligence to play the game, but I think her sense of ethics and fair play would prevent her from becoming too "fudgey" in that respect.

I realize we saw her "faking it" in OotP--when she pretended to cry in Umbridge's office--but I believe this was truly a last resort for her in what she perceived as a life-threatening situation. I would hate to see her become a faker in other areas.

Solitaire



hellocello3200 - Sep 9, 2004 6:28 pm (#656 of 2486)
I agree as well Tom. I think Hermione is a very strait forward person and with the crying incident excluded, we have never seen her deceive that I can think of.



The giant squid - Sep 10, 2004 3:33 am (#657 of 2486)

we have never seen her deceive that I can think of


How about when she lied to McGonagall about why the boys were in the girls' bathroom fighting the troll in PS/SS?

Hermione can be deceptive when she needs to be, she just finds it generally distasteful (as opposed to the Weasley twins, who consider it an art form).

--Mike



The One - Sep 10, 2004 7:35 am (#658 of 2486)
Or when she bluffed Lockheart into signing the permission to get "Most potent potions" from the library in CoS? Or simply making Polyjuice potion in order to pose as Millicent?



Mynn - Sep 10, 2004 8:58 am (#659 of 2486)
Hermione can be deceptive when she needs to be, she just finds it generally distasteful (as opposed to the Weasley twins, who consider it an art form).

Exactly. Hermoine has been plenty deceptive and even broken some pretty serious rules (the timeturner in POA) but it's always for the greater good, at least in her mind. If she feels its justified or will serve a purpose she's not above lying and being bad.



Solitaire - Sep 10, 2004 10:47 am (#660 of 2486)
Regarding the time turner incident, since Dumbledore told her to use it, I think I'd be tempted to give her a pass. However, the rest of you are all correct. I'd forgotten about her stealing ingredients for the Polyjuice potion and lying to get the book.

The troll incident baffled me at first. I thought Hermione could have simply told McGonagall that she had been in the bathroom when the announcement was made and the boys came to let her know (that was actually the truth). The only reason she lied about the troll, I think, was to show Ron and Harry that she realized she'd been a pain and to let them know that she truly wanted to be their friend.

But you're right ... she can do it when it is necessary, and her superb intelligence makes her a good liar. And I agree ... the Weasleys truly HAVE raised it to an art form! Just because they are no longer at Hogwarts, I hope we still see plenty of them.

Solitaire



TomProffitt - Sep 10, 2004 4:01 pm (#661 of 2486)
"The troll incident baffled me at first. I thought Hermione could have simply told McGonagall that she had been in the bathroom when the announcement was made and the boys came to let her know (that was actually the truth). The only reason she lied about the troll, I think, was to show Ron and Harry that she realized she'd been a pain and to let them know that she truly wanted to be their friend." --- Solitaire

I think that at age 11 a child's view of right and wrong is not fully developed. We know that there are shades of gray in ethics, we know that Harry and Ron were trying to do the right thing. But to an 11 year old it may have looked like Harry and Ron were going to get in trouble for not being where they were supposed to be (in their common room).

Hermione was trying to get them out of what all three of them thought was "in trouble."



Solitaire - Sep 10, 2004 9:05 pm (#662 of 2486)
Whatever her motivation, the troll incident was a turning point for our Trio. Since that night, their lives and destinies seem to be very tightly bound together.



Emiko - Sep 11, 2004 10:29 am (#663 of 2486)
I think Hermione lies plenty when she needs to. And she's pretty quick to devise up a plot to get what she wants, something that can be seen as rather "political". I think the real difference between Hermione and the sleazy politicians is that Hermione cares more about her cause than herself, and she will do whatever is necessary regardless of what it does to her. (a good example of this is when she confronts Rita Skeeter about Hagrid in GoF)



megfox - Sep 14, 2004 7:40 am (#664 of 2486)
There is also a certain amount of intelligence needed in order to be able to lie effectively and not get caught. Hermione is perfectly suited to this purpose in the trio, as she is generally quick thinking and intelligent enough to keep her lies straight.



Emiko - Sep 17, 2004 8:40 pm (#665 of 2486)
Harry keeps his lies pretty straight, doesn't he? Aside from with Snape, I guess. But, I agree- Hermione is certainly intelligent enough to lie well.



Potions Mistress - Sep 17, 2004 10:46 pm (#666 of 2486)
On a completely different subject: Hermionne didn't kill the "baby-headed" DE in the battle of the DoM. (I can only speculate on the reasoning behind it--I think she found morally repugnant, but there are other suggestions on the DD thread.) Anyway, does the DE (if and when he recovers) now owe Hermione a life debt?

~pm



The giant squid - Sep 17, 2004 11:08 pm (#667 of 2486)
I don't think that would constitute a life debt, PM, as none of the DA were intent of killing the DEs (the line from the book is "You can't hurt a baby!") No doubt if they ever ran up against each other again, the DE would just sneer that Hermione shold have killed him when she had the chance.

--Mike



Solitaire - Sep 18, 2004 4:12 am (#668 of 2486)
I think people are beginning to place too much importance on the issue of who owes whom a life-debt. Every time someone doesn't kill someone else when he has the chance, the issue of life-debt seems to be cropping up. A life-debt is only worth something if the Wizard who owes it has either the scruples or the strength of character to care about it.

Snape is a pretty nasty character, but deep inside--VERY deep inside--he obviously has sufficient scruples--or sufficient pride--to feel indebted to James Potter. He grumbles over the debt and hates the one to whom it is owed--but he feels bound to it.

Wormtail, on the other hand, was in the inner circle of James Potter and Secret Keeper for him and Lily. He obviously had no scruples about selling them out to Voldemort ... or killing several Muggles in order to stage his own escape, pinning that crime and his own murder on Sirius into the bargain.

Harry prevented Sirius and Remus from killing Wormtail when he rightfully deserved it, putting him deeply in Harry's debt. Despite Dumbledore's comment that Harry had sent Voldemort a servant who owed a life-debt to Harry, that life-debt obviously didn't weigh too heavily on Wormtail's conscience. He repaid it by taking Harry's blood to restore Voldemort to life.

I am not nearly so confident as many that Wormtail will have some big epiphany of conscience and save Harry's life, thus fulfilling his life-debt. I hope I am wrong, but I think he will continue to be the complete rat he is.

If Hermione were to meet the baby-headed DE in combat again, I fear he would do just as the giant squid says--right before he throws an AK at her.

Solitaire



El Cronista de Salem - Sep 18, 2004 4:48 am (#669 of 2486)
Maybe I am confused, but I think that Hermione will have a job with the house-elves like Jo in International Amnisty. It is not the first time Jo says that Hermione is part of her!

I don't know I the SPREW will really work. In spite Hermione doesn't want to see it, the House-Elves are happy in their awful conditions. Will she stop with her organitzation? (Ron and Harry are praying for it).



Hermy-own - Sep 18, 2004 7:24 am (#670 of 2486)
"...House-Elves are happy in their awful conditions."

Dobby, of course, is the exception to this; and what if other House-Elves (Winky, perhaps?) choose to follow in his footsteps? He certainly strikes me as the persuasive type: "Harry Potter must not return to Hogwarts!"

It would be interesting to see the oppressed house-elves rise up against their masters; particularly wizards, like Lucius Malfoy, who believe it is right to abuse their "slaves". I doubt this would happen at Hogwarts; DD seems to treat his elves fairly.

Hermione is very persistent and this leads me to believe she will not give up on SPEW. If the hats fail to "free" the elves, rather than quitting, I see Hermione devising another clever means of convincing them to seek freedom.

Hermy.

EDIT:
Perhaps this belongs on another thread, but is it safe to assume that Dobby was once happy to work in awful conditions? If so, then it only follows that the other Elves (who currently frown upon Dobby's recent exploits) may eventually realise the benefits of freedom (just as Dobby did). Does that make sense?

Double EDIT:
Cross-posted with The One.



The One - Sep 18, 2004 7:36 am (#671 of 2486)
I think Hermione is fighting a just struggle, the only question is how to fight it in good manner.

The house-elfs are as I understand it enchanted into being happy as slaves.

If I could use hypnosis to make you feel happy as my slave, would that make it right for me to enslave you?

Of course, if Hermione manages to free a house elf, that would probably be a disaster for that elf, just look at Winky, but that does not change the fact that the system are fundamentally immoral.

As Dumbledore said, "... the fountain we destroyed tonight told a lie. We wizards have mistreated and abused our fellows for too long, and we are now reaping our reward."

When Hermione grows in age and wisdom, her struggle will go on, but in a better manner. Or, she may as so many young rebels grow into accepting the system and go for a well-paid job in Gringots or an interesting research task in the DoM. But that would disapoint me.



El Cronista de Salem - Sep 18, 2004 9:37 am (#672 of 2486)
Maybe the SPREW changes a little... Hermione shouldn't free them, because the freedom can will a houlse-elv, but she should work to improve the conditions of the job.

Do you think that Hermione will continue with the SPREW after the seventh???? (hehehe, if she lives, of course, Jo!) Wink

I don't believe that Hermione will die. She is part of J.K. Rowling. Kill Hermione would be something like a suicide!



Paulus Maximus - Sep 18, 2004 12:26 pm (#673 of 2486)
Something just occurred to me...

Harry never told Hermione that Dobby was taking all of her socks and hats. However, when Dobby warned Harry about the traitor, he was still wearing all of the socks and hats. And Hermione, along with all the rest of the DA, saw him.

What effect did it have on Hermione, seeing with her own eyes that Dobby had taken all of her socks and hats?



El Cronista de Salem - Sep 18, 2004 12:55 pm (#674 of 2486)
Poor Hermione. She would think that she had done bad the hats, and she should repeat all them.



constant vigilance - Sep 18, 2004 1:58 pm (#675 of 2486)
Solitaire, I think as always you've made an excellent point about life-debts in post #668. (I tried to link it but failed miserably and deleted the post and now I'm starting over. Blah.) I think it probably takes a certain amount of integrity to follow through with a life-debt, though I wonder what would happen to a wizard who owed a life-debt and just completely ignored it.

Regarding Hermione and the hats, maybe seeing Dobby in all her hats could have gotten it through to her that the elves didn't want freedom? Probably not, but who knows. I don't remember her talking about SPEW as much in the later parts of their 5th year. Maybe it was just because they were so busy preparing for their O.W.L.'s, or maybe she decided to try a different tactic.



Solitaire - Sep 18, 2004 3:00 pm (#676 of 2486)
Thanks, constant vigilance. I think we often forget that DEs don't play by the same rules as the rest of the WW. You ask an important question, though. I suppose the rest of the WW could "shun" the person who failed to repay a life-debt. To really discuss this issue--since little of what I have to say concerns Hermione--I would need to take it to Peter's thread or perhaps a different one altogether.

About Hermione and the elves ... there is a thread devoted to S.P.E.W. Oops! I just went to link to it, and it is gone. I guess it was munched. Sad

When Ron mentioned to Hermione about the elves liking their jobs, she mentioned something about Harry freeing Dobby and Dobby being ecstatic about it. I do not think Hermione realizes--or perhaps she has not made the connection--that HARRY DIDN'T FREE DOBBY. He didn't have that authority, since he was not Dobby's master. Harry simply set Lucius up to free Dobby.

Harry made a calculated guess that Lucius would pull the filthy sock off whatever he gave him and toss it aside ... and Dobby would pick it up. This is exactly what happened. Harry tricked Malfoy into freeing Dobby; he did not do it himself. This is an important distinction Hermione seems to have forgotten. Perhaps she is not able to free any House-elves anyway, since she is not their mistress.

In the same way that Kreacher did not have to take orders from Harry--who was not their master--I wonder if the House-elves at Hogwarts have to follow orders from the students if they choose not to do so (we know they love to provide snacks and goodies and don't seem to mind taking orders from Fred & George). We already know that Dobby is the only elf who will clean Gryffindor anymore, thanks to Hermione. Do the other elves stay away because they are afraid of picking up clothing and being set free against their will ... or because they are insulted by her presumptious efforts to set them free when she isn't even their mistress and, therefore, does not have the authority to do so? This is an important question to consider.

If the latter is the reason for their absence from Gryffindor, then Hermione will never convince them to seek freedom, until she LISTENS TO WHAT THEY HAVE TO SAY about things, rather than ASSUMING she knows best. She would do better to talk to AND LISTEN TO Dobby and use him as an envoy to the elves.

Solitaire



hellocello3200 - Sep 18, 2004 3:04 pm (#677 of 2486)
Solitare, you're right. I think that Hermione gets used to being right all the time that sometimes she forgets that she doesn't have all the answers and that the solutions to all problems can't be found in the library.



Solitaire - Sep 18, 2004 3:11 pm (#678 of 2486)
Thanks, hellocello. You are correct about Hermione. She IS right so much of the time, and that can go to a person's head! But there are issues that require practical knowledge and experience ... not just "book learnin'"!

I do not doubt the humanity of her intentions, but she needs to consult with the group she is trying to free. It is difficult to free someone who does not realize he is enslaved! I think this is often the problem with certain humanitarian efforts. In their all-consuming drive to make things better, they often fail to take into account the actual needs--as well as the feelings and sensibilities--of the groups they are trying to help. Result: they wind up making enemies of those they most want to help, and they fail spectacularly.

Solitaire



Potions Mistress - Sep 18, 2004 4:09 pm (#679 of 2486)
Wow Solitaire, I never thought of the whole "master/elf" relationship as you've described it before. That might explain why SPEW is failing right now, Hermione does't have that kind of authority. I also liked what you said about having to listen what a group has to say rather than just assuming you know what is best. Well, gotta run.

~pm

PS: There has to be some sort of magical penalty for "going bankrupt" on a life-debt.



Solitaire - Sep 18, 2004 4:30 pm (#680 of 2486)
I like that expression, Potions Mistress ... "going bankrupt on a life-debt." Interesting ... It does seem as though defaulting on a life-debt should cause one to incur a rather stiff penalty, doesn't it?



hellocello3200 - Sep 18, 2004 6:02 pm (#681 of 2486)
Would DD be the house elve's master and the only one who could free them? I think that he is doing what is best for them. I get the impression that they would not react well with freedom because of the shame they would feel and since they had lost self respect, they might go down the path Winky has taken. I think they feel honored to serve someone like DD and that is why they take offense to Hermione's efforts. I am sure that they are treated well and have everything they need at Hogwarts unlike many elves working for families.



haymoni - Sep 18, 2004 6:17 pm (#682 of 2486)
I have always thought that. Hermione isn't their master. Dumbledore is. He's the only one that can free them.

If they wanted to leave, I'm sure Dumbledore would let them. But how cool would it be to work at Hogwarts? It must be the Primo House Elf job.

Hermione has her heart in the right place.



tracie1976 - Sep 18, 2004 6:48 pm (#683 of 2486)
Since it is past midnight in England. Happy Birthday Hermione.



Kasse - Sep 18, 2004 7:01 pm (#684 of 2486)
Happy birtyday Hermione



Julia. - Sep 18, 2004 8:20 pm (#685 of 2486)
Woo-Hoo! Happy Birthday Hermione!



Solitaire - Sep 18, 2004 8:27 pm (#686 of 2486)
Exactly, hellocello! I think you have hit the nail on the head. Haymoni, I agree Hermione means well ... she is just going about it wrong. Also, she needs to realize that there are probably going to be some House-elves who would rather die than leave Hogwarts.



Weeny Owl - Sep 19, 2004 1:50 am (#687 of 2486)
Also, she needs to realize that there are probably going to be some House-elves who would rather die than leave Hogwarts.

That's an excellent point, Solitaire.

She doesn't seem to realize that by giving them their freedom she's actually condemning them to something bad. She seems to feel that if she can free them at Hogwarts, they'll just stick around and be paid the way Dobby is. I don't think she realizes that they might feel that if they're given clothes that means they have to leave their home.



Czarina II - Sep 19, 2004 10:15 am (#688 of 2486)
Happy Birthday Hermione! (ok, it's a bit late)



Emiko - Sep 19, 2004 6:02 pm (#689 of 2486)
Nice points, Solitaire- although I never saw the life-debt thing as a choice. Well, in a way I did, and in a way I didn't and still don't. I'll explain before I confuse myself: DD made it sound like Snape CHOOSE to help/save Harry in PS/SS, but, then he says in PoA, "When one wizare saves another wizard's life, it creates a certain bond between them... and I'm much mistaken if Voldemort wants his servant in the debt of Harry Potter...this is magic at its deepest and most impenetrable." Which made me believe that it's rather like the love thing, and that Peter (or Snape) couldn't kill Harry if he wanted to. So, perhaps it's a moral thing, if you make the choice, but if you don't then something, magic that can't be changed, I guess, forces you to do something. I'd note that Peter never tries to kill Harry, he only cut his arm.

But, back to Hermione... El Cronista de Salem- I think you have a very good idea, that Hermione may not, in the future, have to free all house-elves, since their role in society seems to be of their own free will, but will improve their conditions. House elves seems to... be made to work around the house- but they don't have to be slaves.



Hollywand - Sep 19, 2004 6:26 pm (#690 of 2486)
A wry consideration on Hermione's house elf hats.....Rowling may be setting us up for some major chaos later, as she did with Fred and George's snackboxes and the hilarious trouble they caused Umbridge.

Couldn't you see some major catastrophe underway at Hogwarts, where Dobby becomes the elf hat Kahuna and hands out the hats to the elves to enable them to defend the school? I would be rolling on the floor laughing (collecting lint, to be sure) and this seems to be exactly the kind of thing Rowling would use to amuse. ;-)



Muggle Doctor - Sep 19, 2004 7:37 pm (#691 of 2486)
An interesting point, Hollywand - freeing a house-elf seems to remove all restrictions upon the elf's magic use (witness the way Dobby manhandled Lucius at the end of Book 2). I can easily see Dumbledore freeing the house-elves for the 'duration of the emergency' and making it clear that they will be taken back afterwards.

Dobby is the epitome of determination, going against his "bad dark wizard" master - he is one in a million, and can comprehend that freedom from your master is occasionally something you should strive for (how many times must Wizard children fling their clothes across the room? Surely they have to come close to hitting their elves occasionally - Dobby caught the sock because he WANTED to).

Winky is the other side of the coin. Whatever the Crouch family's sins, they appear to have been relatively kind to Winky. Winky's release was a disgrace to her, and she is a living reminder to all house-elves of the worst that might happen. Hermione doesn't realise that the majority of house-elves in 'benevolent' families (even Slytherin ones) see themselves in Winky, not Dobby.



Sir Tornado - Sep 19, 2004 7:37 pm (#692 of 2486)
Happy Birthday Hermione. I just have to wait for 9 more days for my own now.



Emiko - Sep 20, 2004 2:10 pm (#693 of 2486)
House-elves don't need to be free to use their magic- Dobby did so when he needed to. They have limited choice- I mean, Dobby managed to get away, but had to punish himself. Kreacher snuck out, but he had to iron his hands (anyways, that how I took his bandaged hands when Harry saw him in the fire). Winky used her magic to bind crouch jr. to her- I'd say that the house-elves wouldn't need to be free to defend hogwarts. And I think it'd be cruel to free them, and them make them work again- or if they're the love-to-work type, it'd be cruel to free them.

Hollywand- I love that theory! although, what use could hats be?



Hollywand - Sep 20, 2004 4:23 pm (#694 of 2486)
What use could the hats be---I don't know, Emiko, but then I had no idea I would be crying with laughter at a Delores Umbridge trying to control a room full of vomiting, flaming, disappearing, headless, fainting students, so I'm looking forward to the comic relief! ;-)



El Cronista de Salem - Sep 22, 2004 10:09 am (#695 of 2486)
I think that Mrs. Granger is Jane Granger. Hermione is only child, and she could recive the name of her mother, using the JKR logical.



Sticky Glue - Sep 23, 2004 4:57 am (#696 of 2486)
I missed it, can anyone tell me if Hermione birthday was the 18th or 19th. If it's the 18th it's the same day as mine, how about that.



mike miller - Sep 23, 2004 7:27 am (#697 of 2486)
If Hermione really wants to "improve" the house elves situation, she needs to understand the "enslavement" that binds them to their current conditions. The current conditions for house elves depends entirely upon the wizard master. So it is likely that many, if not the majority, have no complaints about their station in life.

If the house elves are going to play a part in the coming war, they will have to fight of their own accord. This can only be accomplished, without insulting or demeaning the house elves, by "lifting" the enchantment they have been placed under. My guess is the the Houese Elves enslavement is a punishment, albeit a "too much of a good thing" type of punishemnt, for some past transgression. I think Hagrid was right in saying that it is in a house elf's nature to serve; however, in the distant past they abused their position. Finding a way to "parole" the house elves should be Hermione's objective.

On the lift debt question, DD's statement seems to indicate that a life debt is serious business, magic at it's most mysterious. My guess is that one's choice and even moral conviction could be overturned by trying to violate the life debt. If Peter tried to AK Harry, I don't think the spell would function correctly regardless of Peter's intentions. Personally, I don't think Peter will try to "directly" harm Harry dispite his past betrayal of Harry's parents.



Hermy-own - Sep 23, 2004 7:36 am (#698 of 2486)
Emily, Hermione's birthday is September the 19th.



The One - Sep 23, 2004 12:01 pm (#699 of 2486)
My guess is the the House Elves enslavement is a punishment, albeit a "too much of a good thing" type of punishment, for some past transgression.

Is there anything in the books that indicate this? Is it reasonable to assume that the African people captured and exported as slaves in former centuries was punished for any real or imagined crime, on either an individual or a collective basis? A lot of present and former suppressed people are/was suppressed simply because the suppressors had interest in and the power to perform the suppression. Is there any indication whatsoever that this is not the case for the House Elves?



mike miller - Sep 23, 2004 12:35 pm (#700 of 2486)
Let me add some clarity here (if I can). What I meant by "too much of a good thing" type of punishment was: it is a house elf's nature to want to serve so serve they must. Long ago, that service placed them in a position to know things about the family they were serving. That information was used in an unethical or inappropriate manner. There was a conflict between house elves and wizards because the house elves took advantage of their position. Their punishemnt was to serve forever.

This is all pure speculation on my part, it's the feeling I get from reading the books several times (primarily from DD's remarks). It's entirely possible that I'm way off base here. The one thing I am certain of is that if Hermione really wants to "free" the house elves, she is going to have to understand the cause, nature and reason for their enslavement.

The One - A quick side note, most of the African people who ended up as slaves in the new world were actually sold into slavery by other African peoples. It was common practice for one tribe to raid a neighboring tribe, take captives and then sell them into slavery. This in no way reduces the culpability of the Europeans; without a buyer there's no need to capture your neighbor.

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Hermione Granger Empty Posts 701 to 750

Post  Mona Fri May 06, 2011 3:32 am

The One - Sep 23, 2004 12:54 pm (#701 of 2486)
A quick side note, most of the African people who ended up as slaves in the new world were actually sold into slavery by other African peoples.

I know that. But even if some black people are suppressed by other black people, the outcome has nothing to do with justice, and everything to do with power.

My feeling, mostly based on DD comments, is that the house elf system is fundamentally immoral. The house elves desire to serve is probably implanted into them by wizards because it suited them. Any attempts to justify the system seems so very wrong to me.

But of course, we know very little about the house elves, their nature and their history, so I do not really know this. I just doubt very much that JKR will write a book about just slavery.

But this starts to get OT. This should be continued on the house elf tread.



El Cronista de Salem - Sep 23, 2004 1:36 pm (#702 of 2486)
I think that Hermione's mother is called Jane Granger.



Solitaire - Sep 23, 2004 2:17 pm (#703 of 2486)
El Cronista de Salem, I've noticed you seem to be interested in the names of various characters. There is a thread on the forum called What's In A Name?. If you are interested in the significance of various characters' names, you might want to check it out.

Solitaire



mike miller - Sep 23, 2004 2:38 pm (#704 of 2486)
The One - I'm with you now, thanks for clarifying. I agree it is all about power. Wasn't that Voldemort's point? We should move any further discussion of house elves to the House Elf thread.

Does anyone find in odd that Hermione has not done her usual research on the house elf situation? It seems she always runs to the library to either confirm information she already has or to read up the topic of the moment. In the case of SPEW, she does little research, at leaset none that she ahs shared. It seems to me that how and why the house elves were enslaved in the first place would be a critical piece of information.



Sticky Glue - Sep 23, 2004 3:17 pm (#705 of 2486)
Thanks Hermy-own, One day different, not too bad, at least I might remember it.



Phoenix song - Sep 23, 2004 3:43 pm (#706 of 2486)
Mike Miller: We do know that Hermione has researched some regarding house elves. Remember how she declared that Hogwarts: A History should be renamed to reflect it's "revised" history since the house elves were completely omitted? She also has reported that there are no representatives for house elves in government and that they have no rights whatsoever.

I would seem as if she should do some research on how they came to being enslaved creatures. She could also research the more humane way to "free" them. It would be devastating to most of them to just chuck them out of their homes with clothes but no way of supporting themselves. (Or even the desire to support themselves due to their own sense of shame.)

Barbie



Morgan Champion - Sep 23, 2004 4:06 pm (#707 of 2486)
True enough,but since house elves are completely omitted from /Hogwarts: A History indicates that either house elves are all but ignored,and / or the writer(s) didn't want students to know they were being served by enslaved house elves. Remember how much trouble Hermione had finding out about Nicholas Flamel. It's quite possible that she HASN'T been able to find out anything about how house elves were enslaved.



ex-FAHgeek - Sep 23, 2004 8:34 pm (#708 of 2486)
Edited by Sep 23, 2004 8:37 pm
---quote--- True enough,but since house elves are completely omitted from /Hogwarts: A History indicates that either house elves are all but ignored,and / or the writer(s) didn't want students to know they were being served by enslaved house elves. ---end quote---

My own inclination would be toward the former (being ignored) rather than avoidance (since the wizarding world doesn't seem to have much of a problem with the system in general.)

Really, without a major event having to do with them, how interesting would a chapter on Hogwarts' house-elves be?

"And the son of Bonky was Donky, who revolutionized the techniques used to scrub the bed-pans in the hospital wing to become the most efficient bed-pan scrubber the castle had ever seen..."

Thoroughly amusing, but more appropriate in a history specifically devoted to house-elves than to a school. Basilisk attacks would rank much more highly on the priority list of information to include. Perhaps Hermione should try looking in the humor section instead of the history section?

The big event of note (if they're following the "mark of a good house-elf" and remaining unnoticable) would be their origianl arrival, and we don't know how a house-elf is bonded to a residence/family in general yet.

Also, I must agree with the comment that Hermione has looked for information and has found it lacking, just as she did with Nicholas Flamel. The bigger issue is that she has a primary source sitting in front of her (unlike with Flamel), and she hasn't taken advantage of that yet.



mike miller - Sep 24, 2004 6:19 am (#709 of 2486)
I think the lack of information would spur Hermione to find it. She does not take it well when her beloved books do not provide the answers she is looking for.



Sir Tornado - Sep 24, 2004 8:04 pm (#710 of 2486)
Ok, I'm really sorry to interrupt an ongoing discussion, but will someone please tell me if JKR has clarified Hermione's birthyear? I recollect that people were rather divided on whether Hermione was born in 1979 or 1980. Have we got an answer yet?



Star Crossed - Sep 24, 2004 8:30 pm (#711 of 2486)
As far as I know, not yet.



Emiko - Sep 25, 2004 9:25 am (#712 of 2486)
Similar to what ex-FAHgeek said, there may not be any books on House Elves because there isn't much to say, and why would there be a market for books on House Elves? Books are written because people want to read them, for knowledge, or pleasure. Wizards, feeling completly superior to house elves, probablly don't want, or need, to know about the house elves and would certainly gain no enjoyment from reading about them. Besides, house elves are "common" to most wizards. If a wizard (or witch) doesn't have a house elf, they certainly know someone who does, and it wouldn't be like centaurs or other creatures with "near-human intelligence" (for lack of a better quote, I mean no offense!) that many wizards don't know about and are therefore mysterious and interesting. House elves probablly aren't on the wizarding world's radar, and so Hermione wouldn't be able to find anything on them in the library. If it's not in Hogwarts: A History, it's questionable as to whether or not it'd be anywhere else.



Muggle Doctor - Sep 27, 2004 11:50 pm (#713 of 2486)
House-elves probably aren't in Hogwarts, a history because they are so much part of daily life. When it was written, the majority of wizarding families which felt they counted probably had them anyway, so why bother writing about them in the school when they were in just about anyone's home? (Theory)

As far as being free to use one's magic is concerned - I think it depends against whom, and to what end. Dobby certainly wasn't free to use it against Lucius until he was his own man (or elf).

House-elf topics are always going to appear in the Hermione thread because so much of what she has made herself is tied up with their freedom (or lack thereof). I agree, though, that far too much of it ends up here. SPEW and Hermione are indivisible, but anything SPEW-wise should probably go to that thread, regardless of how much it involves discussing Hermione herself. (Just a suggestion - you have to draw the line somewhere). Likewise, where do you draw the line on SPEW vs. house-elves?



Catherine - Sep 28, 2004 1:33 pm (#714 of 2486)
Let me state my agreement with Muggle Doctor's post that this thread seems to be more about House-Elves and SPEW than Hermione herself.

To back up to Tornedo's question a few posts back, I think the timeline approved by JKR for use in the DVD, and the timeline her in the Lexicon seems to have Hermione's 11th birthday falling on the September that she begins Hogwarts.

This also coincides with Dumbledore's assertion in PoA that "the word of two thirteen year-old wizards" won't convince anyone.

Of course, JKR is also notoriously bad at "maths."



Solitaire - Sep 28, 2004 8:14 pm (#715 of 2486)
Catherine & Muggle Doctor, I tried to point someone to the SPEW thread a week or so ago to discuss these things, and it had disappeared. Perhaps we need another one, since SPEW seems to occupy so much of the discussion here. (Of course, I am not a mod, so it is just a really gentle observation ... not even a suggestion.)

Solitaire



Leila 2X4B - Sep 28, 2004 10:19 pm (#716 of 2486)
Solo, SPEW and House-elves have become integrated.

Leila



Solitaire - Sep 28, 2004 10:34 pm (#717 of 2486)
Thanks, Leila. I haven't been as active lately, so I'm not up on all the latest scoop.



Fawkes Forever - Sep 29, 2004 3:22 am (#718 of 2486)
I wonder how Hermione feels about sharing the same middle name as Umbridge...

Sorry just a mad little thought on a wednesday morning



Tomoé - Sep 29, 2004 8:02 am (#719 of 2486)
Hopefully, Hermione don't know Umbridge second name. ^_^



Czarina II - Sep 29, 2004 8:11 am (#720 of 2486)
Ah, it would only give Hermione more pleasure in torturing her!

I share my name with a lot of famous, notorious people. Some, I am a bit ashamed of the connection, but mostly, I either have a sense of comradeship or a personal vendetta against them -- so it is likely Hermione would fall into the latter category with Umbridge.



phoenix fire - Sep 30, 2004 8:35 am (#721 of 2486)
Hello, I am new to this thread, though I do love Hermoine and her no-nonsense approach to life! I don't have time to read the whole thread though, and I had a question I thought some Hermione-buff might know off hand. Is it ever mentioned in OotP why Hermione is in London with the Order? Why was she not with her parents?



Catherine - Sep 30, 2004 8:42 am (#722 of 2486)
Hi, Phoenix Fire,

It never does say why Hermione is in 12 GP in the summer. I have assumed that she is there to facilitate going back to Hogwarts, and to visit with her best friends Ginny, Harry, and Ron.

Hermione is a good influence on Harry, and it is possible that she is there to help smoothe things over once Harry is in trouble with the Ministry.



phoenix fire - Sep 30, 2004 8:44 am (#723 of 2486)
I got the impression that Hermione had been there all summer. I just think it strange that Hermione spends so little time with her muggle family.



Catherine - Sep 30, 2004 8:48 am (#724 of 2486)
Well, you are right, Phoenix Fire.

If you check the search function, you will find lots of speculations about Hermione and the amount of time she spends, or DOESN'T spend with her Muggle family.

There are lots of good ideas that have been covered.



Solitaire - Sep 30, 2004 10:50 am (#725 of 2486)
I think the natural separation from the nuclear family probably occurs sooner with Muggle-borns. We still see VERY strong ties between Charlie and Bill with their family, despite the fact that they are involved in their own careers elsewhere. But with Muggle-borns, the more they develop as Witches and Wizards--and the deeper they are immersed in the Wizarding World--the less they will have in common with their families, unless the families are VERY interested in what is happening in the WW.

Given Hermione's already-deep emotional ties to the Weasleys, Harry, and other members of the Order, she seems to be making the separation even faster. I think it will continue to accelerate as the War picks up speed. I would be willing to speculate that Lily was probably in the same position when she was Hermione's age, given the activities of Voldemort and the DEs when they graduated. I am sure it is hard on the families who were particularly close before their kids left for Hogwarts.

Actually, I think it would be a good thing to see the parents and siblings of some Muggle-borns like Hermione, and perhaps Dean Thomas and Justin Finch-Fletchley, show a deeper interest in and contact with the Wizarding World. I am hoping we see that in the coming books. Even though they do not have the powers necessary to defend themselves against Voldemort and DEs, it would seem that stronger Muggle-Wizard relations are going to be necessary in the future, if the "good guys" of the Wizarding World are going to prevail over Voldemort and his evil henchmen. Just my 2 knuts, of course ...

Solitaire



phoenix fire - Sep 30, 2004 11:02 am (#726 of 2486)
Interesting and excellent ideas Sloitaire, thank you!



Potions Mistress - Oct 7, 2004 8:49 pm (#727 of 2486)
I think Solitaire is right. When you're Muggle-born and immersed in the WW, I think there would be a tendency to kind of "lose your roots" in a manner of speaking. Unfortunately, I don't see a lot of WW/Muggle interaction in the coming war. For one reason, it would be much to dangerous to Muggles to try to go up against LV in any way, shape, or form (either directly or indirectly). I would imagine that many of the characters we've met would want to try and protect their families from that as much as possible.

Also, when you're a teenager in general, not to mention a witch/wizard, you are definitely trying to find yourself and there is a certain amount of distancing yourself from your parents. Looking at Hermione specifically, she's a witch (and a darn good one, at that) and her parents are dentists. What do you talk about with them? For Hermione, "How's school?" has very different connotations than for us Muggles! And how do you explain a magical war to your parents? It's hard enough with the one in Iraq going on right now, where there are a bazillion and one sources of information, from the news to the internet, but Hermione's parents (and Muggle relatives of other witches/wizards in general) would have a much harder time comprehending such a thing. Then there's the whole secrecy deal of the WW. Whew, that went on much longer than expected.

I will ask only one question, feel free to answer if you relate: How in the world does Hermione manage to keep up with all her school work? I'm in my senior year of college now, and it's going to kill me!! I can most definitely relate to the OWL/NEWT students!

~pm



Phoenix song - Oct 7, 2004 9:10 pm (#728 of 2486)
Maybe Hermione can manage to keep up because of her magical homework planner? Just joking! I truly sympathize with you. It is amazing how much can be required of students. It is also amazing how well some seem to juggle all of the tasks that they are required to perform. I can only guess that it's a talent or gift. I will be sending all of my best wishes and a round dozen of the strongest cheering charms to help you through your last year. Just think, another year and you'll be wishing that you were back at school again...or not!

Barbie



Muggle Doctor - Oct 7, 2004 9:38 pm (#729 of 2486)
Unfortunately we only see the world through Harry's senses (and those of Voldemort that he is occasionally permitted to share!), and what goes on beyond this limited world is what we assemble from clues that JKR graciously drops.

We are also in the position of being able to make suppositions of our own, and we have the privilege of clinging to them until something JKR says or writes convinces us otherwise.

It is probably fair to say that Hermione's parents know far more about the wizarding world than most other Muggles - remember, we have seen them in Diagon Alley at least once (at the beginning of CoS).

It is not beyond the realm of possibility, having changed Muggle money to galleons to pay for Hermione's books, that they would have some left over, and that they might pay for their own subscription to the Daily Prophet (or perhaps the Quibbler, later on). Knowing the sort of girl their daughter is, they wouldn't believe she would really hang out with the sort of psychopathic liar the Prophet claims Harry is - and then they would start reading between the lines.

IMHO, even H/non-Hr shippers have to agree that Harry is one of her best friends and what she sees him going through probably tears her up inside - I think she MUST be telling her parents what's going on, simply because it's too much for her to cope with alone (unless her friendship with Viktor is more emotional-support and less lovey-dovey than some Hr/VK supporters would like to believe).



Solitaire - Oct 7, 2004 10:06 pm (#730 of 2486)
Oh, Gosh, Muggle Doctor! Can you imagine what must run through their heads if they were reading the Daily Prophet all last year? I know Dumbledore keeps up with Muggle newspapers. I hope the Grangers don't follow the Wizarding papers THAT closely! Hermione will need to perform hundreds of cheering charms and memory modifications on them during the summer!

Solitaire



Gemini Wolfie - Oct 7, 2004 10:55 pm (#731 of 2486)
Not sure if this has been mentioned but many think that Hermione's patronus is an important clue. Don't know if anyone mentioned this but the Otter is related to the weasels... Could we be once again looking for something bigger than what it really is?



Steve Newton - Oct 8, 2004 6:20 am (#732 of 2486)
"Could we be once again looking for something bigger than what it really is?"

Its what we do.



Solitaire - Oct 8, 2004 7:02 am (#733 of 2486)
Gemini, I think there were a string of posts over on the alchemy thread yesterday that touched on Hermione's otter Patronus and the Weasley connection.



Tomoé - Oct 8, 2004 10:20 pm (#734 of 2486)
I think it's just Jo's favorite animal and since Hermione's personality is the closer to Jo's (when she was of that age), she gave her her favorite animal as an animagus. No need of alchemy here.



TomProffitt - Oct 10, 2004 4:56 pm (#735 of 2486)
"Hermione will need to perform hundreds of cheering charms and memory modifications on them during the summer!" --- Solitaire

I certainly could have benefited from being able to cast memory modifications on my parents in high school.



Solitaire - Oct 10, 2004 7:10 pm (#736 of 2486)
LOL Tom! Couldn't we all! I can think of a few "groundations," as my students call them, which need never have happened! heeeee



Grimber - Oct 13, 2004 4:21 am (#737 of 2486)
Don't know if this topic has been brought up before. ( did a search and realy didn't seem to find it particualry discussed)

I find it rather odd hermonie total dislike of Divination class ( not just Trelawney) she seems to put out that she doesn't like anything thing dealing with prediction of the future. Yet she takes Arithmancy and is VERY into it. Arithmancy is the divination of the future through the use of numbers ( for those that don't know what it is).

Just wonder if this is a flaw in her character, or that she thinks it's possible the future can be devined through logic process but not by visions or seeing shapes in other things. Is actualy many divination methods.



Chemyst - Oct 13, 2004 5:47 am (#738 of 2486)
Grimber, I don't think it's a character flaw as much as it is plain character. You made the distinction between logic and visions, and I'd agree – Hermione likes her course work to be a little more predictable, a little more black and white, where all the questions have answers that can be proved or disproved. Despite her willingness to justify some lies, Hermione still values honesty. The part of Trelawny's class that grated on her was not 'knowing the future' so much as it was Trelawny's disingenuous theatrics. For Hermione, the dishonesty of trying to pass off guesses as true predictions was too much to swallow. That makes it more of a character strength than a flaw. Of course, to muddy up the picture, we need to sprinkle in the factor that Trelawny didn't consider Hermione to have "the gift" so the dislike was mutual, and it may have brought down her grade. In this, it may be hard to separate the dislike of the teacher from the dislike of the subject.



utkitten04 - Oct 13, 2004 9:58 am (#739 of 2486)
I know that I personally have had some classes where the professor was abysmal, and I transferred my dislike of the person to a hatred for the subject. However, now that I am in graduate school, I have been reintroduced to some of those topics and have developed a greater appreciation for them. I think with all the prophecies and such going on with Harry right now, Hermione will at least realize the importance of divination, even if she never cares enough to study it again.



Badb Catha - Oct 13, 2004 4:42 pm (#740 of 2486)
My two little copper coins:

About Arithmancy: it seems to me it's more a way to disclose the most profound meaning of the things, rather than a kind of Divination. It's only a nuance, but a sharp one, I think.

About Divination: As J.K. Rowlings shows to think, it is a thing that happens to someone, rather than a thing that is done by someone. It happens to you. Like a casualty. It's more a curse, than a gift. While a prophecy is flowing through her, professor Trelawney doesn't know what is happening. When it ends, she remembers nothing.

You can't do it, so you can neither teach it, nor learn it. So, the more (and the only) intelligent decision a student can take about it, is to leave it as soon as possible, at least, to avoid the time lost.

On the other hand (I wonder if J.K. Rowlings knows "The Left Hand of Darkness" by Ursula K. LeGuin, and agrees with her, as I do): to know the future is pointless. Consider this: when Voldemort begins to act in order to turn the prophecy to his own advantage, he gives up to act according his own will, to make himself a sort of prophecy's puppet. And he starts the series of events that seems destined to lead to his own downfall.



Solitaire - Oct 13, 2004 5:37 pm (#741 of 2486)
I think Hermione may have been influenced by McGonagall's comment that divination was one of the "more imprecise branches" of magic ... or am I suffering from movie contamination? I do not have my books with me to check. Hermione tends to be very much like McGonagall in many ways, and if that was McGonagall's comment, it makes Hermione's feelings understandable.

That said, remember her comment to Ron near the end of OotP. He made a disparaging remark about prophecies or divination and she said something like this: "How can you say that when you now know that there are real prophecies?" Again, no book handy to check the specific statement, but it was something like that. That would indicate that she does have an open mind on the subject.

I think, as someone above pointed out (the post is hidden from me), that Hermione probably objects to Trelawny's style, which is overly theatrical and a bit self-important. I believe Hermione is put off by all the "fake mystical" trappings ... burning incense, crystal gazing, etc. Sybill's manner also suggests that she views most people as being rather mundane and far less "attuned" than she is to the more subtle "vibes" that are going on around us. It could be a defense mechanism ... so she doesn't have to look into the mirror and admit to herself that she is a fraud. Either way, Hermione is not the type to buy into that stuff and pet Trelawney's ego.

Sadly, it would seem that Sybill hasn't even really "been there" for the two legitimate prophecies she has made. Do you suppose she even knows about the one in the Hog's Head?

Solitaire



Sir Tornado - Oct 14, 2004 2:03 am (#742 of 2486)
Don't think so.



Kelly Kapaoski - Oct 14, 2004 3:21 am (#743 of 2486)
I think the Ministry of Magic lets the International statute of secrecy slide when it comes to the parents of Muggle born student as long as the muggle born wizard or witch is only doing magic in front of their parents and muggle siblings. Otherwise Petunia, Vernon, and dudley dursley as well as Petunia's parents would need memory charms on a regular basis since they would have knowledge of the wizarding world.



TomProffitt - Oct 14, 2004 9:48 am (#744 of 2486)
Sliding onto another topic.

I was listening to Goblet of Fire yesterday and I realized something I hadn't quite absorbed before.

Hermione is a very vindictive person. She shows a great deal of determination when she announces her intention of getting vengeance on Rita Skeeter.

While Rita's writings are libelous and hurtful they are somewhat tame by comparison with the real muggle media. Character assassination is the normal thing to do when it comes to politics and the American media (it's going both ways politically depending on the medium).

Compared to the potential damage of a snitch in the DA, Rita's actions weren't all that harmful, hurtful, but not harmful.

I don't think Hermione has any intention of releasing Marietta from the Curse of the Zits. It will take a respected mentor, such as McGonagall or Dumbledore, to get Hermione to relent.

By the way, she didn't have a particularly forgiving attitude about Crouch either. And she certainly seems to be looking for an opportunity to do Pansy an ill turn.

It was also interesting to note her jealous reactions to Fleur and Padma giving attention to Ron.



Hermy-own - Oct 14, 2004 11:16 am (#745 of 2486)
"Hermione is a very vindictive person."

I don't know, Tom. "Vindictive" seems a tad harsh, in my opinion.

Skeeter had no right to reveal inaccurate and hurtful information about Harry or Hermione. What did they do to deserve this? Skeeter had no right to conduct interviews on Hogwarts' grounds. Neither did she have the right to be animagus. Hermione's "punishment" was only fair; justice was done. I would have to agree, though, that she did go one step too far by taking matters into her own hands.

As far as Marietta is concerned, I think Hermione will remove the "SNEAK" when she thinks Marietta has learnt her lesson. Let's not forget that Marietta signed to secrecy before joining the DA. In Hermione's eyes, Marietta got what she deserved -- not only for abondoning the contract, but for putting the careers of her fellow students in jeopardy. At this point, I must digress; any further discussion concerning Ms Edgecombe does not belong on this thread.

I assume you are referring to Crouch Sr. If so, then you only have to look as far as SPEW. Again, the whole justice thing becomes apparent. Hermione felt Crouch's attitude towards Winky after the fiasco at the Quidditch World Cup was unjust. Surely this is understandable considering her stance on Elfish rights.
If, however, you are referring to Crouch Jr. in your post, then I must say I would not raise an eyebrow if Hermione does not even attempt to forgive him. Does a bonafide Voldemort supporter really deserve forgiveness, especially if he is willing to take innocent lives (Harry) in order to ensure the return of his master?

As for the jealousy ... I would say jealousy is more of a flaw of human nature than a flaw on the part of Hermione's character. We will all be jealous of someone or something at some point in our lives. Hermione is no exception. To give her credit, she did well to control her feelings; remember the way Ron reacted to Victor's interest in Hermione...

Hermy.



Tomoé - Oct 14, 2004 11:31 am (#746 of 2486)
My mom notice almost the same thing Tom, though she was reading OoP. She was astonished how mean Hermione was becoming. There were the house-elf she tried to force to freedom, the jinxed parchement she made the other sign, the interview she forced Rita to do and the way she get rid of Umbridge. She really see her becoming the next Dark Lord.



Doxy Bowtruckle - Oct 14, 2004 11:55 am (#747 of 2486)
"She really see's her becomming the next dark lord" (Tomoe)

I know her attitude and behaviour is getting worse and more mean, but,..... No surely not that bad!Smile

Mind you, Hermione is fast approaching adulthood, so i would imagine that she would change in her characteristics and the mood swings that go hand in hand with growing up too!!

Maybe she is going turn out bad afterall! Hope not.

DoxyB



Hermy-own - Oct 14, 2004 12:03 pm (#748 of 2486)
We must remember that Hermione is no longer the "goody two shoes" she once was. Perhaps we have become so used to thinking this that her actions seem to be out of character.

While some of her recent doings have been questionable, I think it is far from fair to liken her to any Dark Lords or Death Eaters. From Harry to house elves, Hermione always has good intentions at heart. If there is a problem, I would say it lies in her approach to problem solving; she is very independent. Some of the obstacles she attempted to tackle in OotP would have been better handled had she sought Dumbledore's advice. Cast your minds back to CoS, when she consulted Professor McGonagall (much to Harry and Ron's disgust) about the Firebolt, for fear it was rigged. It just goes to show how much she has changed.

Hermy.

PS - Hermione doing a Pettigrew? I really, really hope not!



Steve Newton - Oct 14, 2004 12:11 pm (#749 of 2486)
I like the way that Hermione is developing. When you play with the big kids, and Lord V is a big kid, they play for keeps. This is war not a game.



Catherine - Oct 14, 2004 12:21 pm (#750 of 2486)
Whoa! Stop the carriage! I think Hermione has been done some bad turns here.

While Rita's writings are libelous and hurtful they are somewhat tame by comparison with the real muggle media. Character assassination is the normal thing to do when it comes to politics and the American media (it's going both ways politically depending on the medium). --Tom Proffitt

Hermione, Hagrid, and Harry are not politicians. Harry and Hermione are, even by Umbridge's definition, children. Hermione is not even a public figure, and Rita writes the article about her playing boys false out of pure spite. Hermione suffered a painful injury and humiliation because of Rita's article. I question how "newsworthy" Rita's articles are, as she fails to report about the Tri-Wizard Tournement itself, and only repeats second-hand gossip and innuendo.

So I think that Hermione is not "vindictive," as it has been suggested. I think she has "righteous anger" at stories that are maliciously conceived, and dubiously newsworthy. In addition, I don't think her anger and frustration at Crouch was vindictiveness, either. She was passionate about defending Winky from an obvious injustice done by a power-hungry and hypocritical wizard.

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Prefect Marcus - Oct 14, 2004 1:42 pm (#751 of 2486)
Edited by Oct 14, 2004 1:42 pm
Catherine, this brings to mind another converstation you and I had over Hermione a long time ago.

There can be little doubt that Hermione has a mean streak. If you get in her way, you are toast.

I pity poor Marietta. She made the mistake of crossing Hermione, and she got nailed, HARD. Did Hermione at one time say to herself, "The girl has suffered enough"? Did she even once say, "Umbridge is gone. Dumbledore is back. Let bygones be bygones."?

No, instead she spitefully keeps Marietta in misery.

Ooooo, I am so looking forward to the confrontation between Miss Never-forget-a-grudge, and Pansy when Pansy switches sides. The fireworks are going to be awesome!



Phoenix song - Oct 14, 2004 3:02 pm (#752 of 2486)
Why is it that nobody ever questions the vindictiveness of the Weasley twins after they locked that Slytherin prefect in that closet for all of those days? (Sorry, can't look up how many days right now.) He crossed the Weasleys and was nailed hard as well. I don't hear anybody else saying that they are mean. I don't hear anybody else questioning whether the punishment fit the crime.

And what about all of those attacks on Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle on the train? Sure, they had it coming, I'm even glad that they got "it". However, why is it that we're not questioning Harry, Ron, Dean, Seamus, Neville and the other boys for their vindictiveness, spitefulness, etc?

I think that there is a double standard when it comes to girls and guys in these matters. If guys argue and one strikes back then it's just a matter of who had it coming. But Hermione sticks up for herself and her principles and is characterized as having a mean streak, being vindictive, and who knows what else. I don't think that we'd be having this conversation if it had been Harry or Ron who had hexed that sign up sheet.

I also agree that it was deadly important that this group be kept secret. It was necessary that Hermione implement some other means of protection than just a promise or a "pinky swear". They were playing in the major leagues and the stakes for failing your team were major as well. I don't fault Hermione for it in the least.

Even if Pansy switches sides, she doesn't exactly have a right to point any fingers at Hermione. Besides, I think that Hermione would be quite capable of defending herself against little Miss Pansy. That'd be a confrontation that I would delight in seeing myself.

Barbie



Prefect Marcus - Oct 14, 2004 3:24 pm (#753 of 2486)
Edited by Oct 14, 2004 3:25 pm
Barbie,

You are correct. Pansy will have no right to point any fingers at Hermione. On the other hand, neither will Hermione have a right to point fingers at Pansy. They both are very strong females who tend not to take any prisoners. When the 'cow' and the 'chipmunk' finally square off one-on-one for the title of supreme Alpha female it will be cunning Slytherin versus intelligent Gryffindor. They have five years of animosity built up. The fireworks will be spectacular.

And we get a ring-side seat. ;-)

Marcus



Tomoé - Oct 14, 2004 3:36 pm (#754 of 2486)
Doxy Bowtruckle -> "She really see's her becomming the next dark lord" (Tomoe) I know her attitude and behaviour is getting worse and more mean, but,..... No surely not that bad!Smile

LOL, that's my mom, she already thought Harry "rules doesn't apply in emergencies" attitude was a bit edgy and had she wrote the books, he would have still to it a lot more. It's likely why Jo is a famous writer and not her. ^_^

Phoenix song, Montague was stuck in the vanishing cabinet for at least 24 hours (he get out the day after he get in, after class hours). Strangly, Hermione was the only one who show compasion for Montague while she didn't help Marietta, either by removing the jinx herself or by telling Mme Pomfrey what jinxes exactly she used.

Edit : Very true Marcus, plus the sixth year is the year that matter if you want to become Headgirl, I'm sure Pansy will try to get the post, maybe Hermione will try to beat her at the politic game.



Solitaire - Oct 14, 2004 3:59 pm (#755 of 2486)
I do not like the idea of Marietta still having SNEAK written across her face--even if she was a stool pigeon--and I hope this has been rectified by the time the next school term begins. HOWEVER, no one forced Marietta to sign the paper, and no one forced her to come to the meetings. She has a free will and a voice. If she felt pressured by Cho, well, she needs to stop being so wishy-washy. It would have been more respectable for her to simply say she did not wish to be involved in any group right now and simply walk away.

As for Rita, she is a tabloid trash reporter. The majority of her stories are innuendo and hearsay. I found it interesting that the only thing of quality and respectability we have seen her write was published in the Quibbler, which is considered a tabloid type of paper. Rita thinks nothing of twisting the truth and ruining reputations for her own personal gain. Catherine was correct when she pointed out that Rita's lies ruined Hermione's reputation and caused mental anguish and actual physical harm. Frankly, I think Hermione's revenge upon her is quite mild and more than justified.

I do hope Marietta is back to normal in the next book. A lesson is one thing. I do not want Hermione to get a rep for being mean and nasty. We have enough mean, nasty characters in HP.

Solitaire



Weeny Owl - Oct 14, 2004 4:33 pm (#756 of 2486)
**waving to Catherine and Solitaire**

Catherine was correct when she pointed out that Rita's lies ruined Hermione's reputation and caused mental anguish and actual physical harm. Frankly, I think Hermione's revenge upon her is quite mild and more than justified.

Catherine was most definitely correct.

What Rita did was done deliberately and with malice aforethought only to hurt Hermione because Hermione dared to call into question Rita's abhorent lack of ethics. It was a confrontation few witnessed, yet Rita got revenge by making it public.

Hermione's heart is in the right place with S.P.E.W., even though her methonds leave something to be desired. She wants these magical beings to have freedom and not be slaves. There's certainly nothing wrong with her beliefs, but she needs to go about it another way.

Marietta should have kept her word. She signed an agreement not to divulge anything to Umbridge. She hurt quite a few people with what she did. I'm sure Dumbledore could have lifted the curse, and it will probably be gone in the next book. Should Hermione have lifted it herself? Maybe or maybe not.

Hermione is getting a bum rap. She's a very caring person who fights for the rights of those she sees as defenseless. I can picture Hermione in the role of Margaret Sanger or any other woman who has fought for civil rights.

I don't see her as vindictive at all. She just manages to fight back when pushed too far. The next Dark Lord? Never.



Catherine - Oct 14, 2004 5:04 pm (#757 of 2486)
I pity poor Marietta. She made the mistake of crossing Hermione, and she got nailed, HARD. --Marcus

She didn't cross Hermione. She violated a pact of secrecy, and paid a terrible price. It wasn't personal, with Hermione's jinx. Anyone who violated it would have suffered the same consequences.

I really don't think that the "grudge-holding" description works with Hermione, either. Hermione has always been the "glue" and the peace-making person among the trio. She has even tried to "run interference" with Harry and Cho by explaining girls, and "the mad things they do."

Let's not tar Miss Granger with a dark brush just yet, please.

EDIT: Waves back at Solitaire and the Weeny Owl!



Chemyst - Oct 14, 2004 6:35 pm (#758 of 2486)
She didn't cross Hermione. She violated a pact of secrecy... Catherine

Thanks Catherine! That's how I saw it too, and now that I've scrolled on down, I see you've already covered the point quite nicely.



Tomoé - Oct 14, 2004 7:46 pm (#759 of 2486)
It's still strange she didn't helped Mme Pomfrey to broke Marietta's jinxes while she worried for Montague. Or maybe she think a apparence altering charm for jeopardying 28 students future is fairer than jeopadying the future of a students who have abused his authority. Still ...



Weeny Owl - Oct 14, 2004 8:05 pm (#760 of 2486)
That's an excellent way of putting it, Catherine. Even if Hermione herself had spoken to Umbridge, she'd have had the same thing happen.

Marietta did endanger the students in the DA, and indirectly caused Dumbledore to leave. After he was gone, McGonagall and Hagrid were fair game. Montague was a different story. He didn't actually endanger anyone, and the situations were different in that his problem was much more serious.



TomProffitt - Oct 14, 2004 8:46 pm (#761 of 2486)
Now that I've stirred up the hornets' nest let me aid a bit more fuel to the fire (pardon the mixed metaphor).

I do not contend that none of Hermione's targets had nothing coming to them for their transgressions. What I contend is that Hermione does not have the right, authority, or responsibility to administer the punishments herself. Furthermore our budding vigilante (particularly in the case of Marietta, but also in the case of Rita) does not know when enough is enough.

While always thorough in her research, Hermione is less diligent in her reasoning (e.g. SPEW).

Hermione has made errors of degree, not errors of kind.



Solitaire - Oct 14, 2004 9:37 pm (#762 of 2486)
waving at Weeny Owl and Catherine!

To be really honest, I think the person Hermione was expecting to wind up with SNEAK across the face was Zacharias Smith. I know he is the one I'd have put money on. He was rather irritating at the Hog's Head and at the first meeting--although Fred and George took the wind out of his sails with the Expelliarmus! practice.

Once again, Catherine states it well ... She didn't cross Hermione. She violated a pact of secrecy, and paid a terrible price. It wasn't personal, with Hermione's jinx. Anyone who violated it would have suffered the same consequences.

Weeny Owl is also correct in stating that Marietta was indirectly the cause of Dumbledore leaving. If Dumbledore had not left Hogwarts, it is very possible Harry would have gone to him with the "he's got Padfoot" business, and Sirius might still be alive.

I do agree that Hermione needs to start listening instead of talking where SPEW is concerned. She may know some basic facts about the elves, as they are written down, but she obviously does not know why they seem generally content to be where they are. In such a cause, there is no substitute for going directly to the source--the House-elves themselves--and ASKING some respectful questions and LISTENING to the answers they give. Until she does this, I doubt she will have much success.

Solitaire



Kelly Kapaoski - Oct 15, 2004 2:48 am (#763 of 2486)
Also Hermione has only had the experiance with the House Elves at hogwarts as well as Dobby, Kreacher and Winky. There are probably Wizarding Families who are accually decent to there house elves and offer them a few fringe benifets such as decent food and maybe a bedroom of their own as well as decent pillow cases



Catherine - Oct 15, 2004 4:22 am (#764 of 2486)
I do not contend that none of Hermione's targets had nothing coming to them for their transgressions. What I contend is that Hermione does not have the right, authority, or responsibility to administer the punishments herself.--Tom Proffitt

I think that Hermione had the right to jinx the parchment. She did not directly jinx Marietta herself. I don't see vindictiveness here.

As for Hermione's actions regarding Rita, I still don't think the word "vindictive" applies. Rita violated wizarding law by failing to register herself as an amimagus, and used those powers to violate Dumbledore's restrictions. Hermione didn't blackmail Rita for money or power or personal gain. She simply gave Rita a choice. If Hermione had turned the information over to adult wizards, I rather think that Rita might have been punished more severely than Hermione's ban on writing for one year. I don't call it punishment; I call it justice.

Why does Hermione not have the authority to impose a consequence on Rita? Hermione was one of the victim's of Rita's so-called journalism. I don't think that just because Hermione is a teenager that she has no "right, authority, or responsibility" to address wrongs that have been done to her. It's not as though Hermione said that Rita could never write again; that might have been a bit vindictive. But, Rita wrote lies for a year; Hermione told her to keep her quill to herself for a year. Seems fair to me.

Furthermore our budding vigilante (particularly in the case of Marietta, but also in the case of Rita) does not know when enough is enough. --Tom

Oh, I disagree. I think Hermione realized that Rita could be most helpful in spreading the true story of Voldemort's return. Rita didn't even have to keep her quill in check for a whole year after all!



haymoni - Oct 15, 2004 5:37 am (#765 of 2486)
I wonder if Hermione knows how to get rid of the "SNEAK" spots.

Knowing how to jinx and knowing the counter-curse are 2 different things.



TomProffitt - Oct 15, 2004 6:29 am (#766 of 2486)
I don't think extortion is an appropriate way to seek justice. Makes for a good story, though.



Mrs Brisbee - Oct 15, 2004 6:39 am (#767 of 2486)
Hermione is a very intelligent girl who often acts as the voice of reason in the books, so I think it is sometimes hard to keep in mind that she is so young. Those of you who have pointed out that her intelligence far outstrips her common sense on some matters have it exactly right. Sometimes she doesn't think things through enough and sometimes she goes overboard. She's just fifteen remember.

How many of you think Fred and George are funny? Ron didn't sound very amused when he was recounting how Fred had once given him an acid pop that burnt a hole through his tongue. Practical jokes aren't often funny to the victim, and many of Fred and Georges jokes sound cruel to me. I still do find them funny often, but they aren't all perfect and nice.

Remember when Harry went to talk to Sirius and Lupin about his dad in OotP? I loved this exchange:

Lupin: "I wouldn't want you to judge your father on what you saw there, Harry. He was only fifteen--"

Harry: "I'm fifteen!"

Harry's fifteen, does stupid and thoughtless things sometimes, and know what? He'll grow out of it. So will Hermione. Maybe it's hard not to hold her to a higher standard than the other kids because she often seems so mature, but she still has her teenager moments. One thing I like about this series of books is that it is about kids, and they tend to act their ages. Hermione too.



TomProffitt - Oct 15, 2004 7:09 am (#768 of 2486)
"One thing I like about this series of books is that it is about kids, and they tend to act their ages." --- Mrs Brisbee

Oh, yes, me, too.

I actually have a much better opinion of Hermione than it may appear from my recent posts. Sometimes the extreme things we see in novels make us wish we had the nerve to do such a thing, but we know those things aren't really appropriate. Heroes in novels are allowed a little hyperbole.

In a well ordered culture and society Hermione would have been able to take Rita to court and receive just compensation, or merely complaining to Rita's editor would have seen justice done. Rita, herself, is a bit of hyperbole.

If I allow that what is taking place is fiction I can easily say, I wish I had the gumption to do as Hermione has done. In the real world, I know that had I done as Hermione I would have committed several felonies.

Most societies don't like for the citizenry to take justice into their own hands. After all, isn't that what the Death Eaters would claim that they are doing?



Solitaire - Oct 15, 2004 7:33 am (#769 of 2486)
When Hermione initially presented the idea of the DA to Harry, she wasn't fooling around. Like Harry, she knew she would eventually be facing DEs and perhaps Voldemort himself. It was her recognition and acknowledgement of the seriousness of things that convinced Harry to take the risk. Hermione knew the seriousness of the mission of the DA.

She also knew the risk of defying Umbridge, and she was aware that--after her persistent questioning in class--she herself was in Umbridge's "scope." Hermione had already seen what a vengeful Umbridge could do from seeing Harry's scars from The Quill. More than that, I think she realized that Umbridge was gunning for Dumbledore's job, and she knew that Fudge and Umbridge were tight as ticks. She had discerned as much from Umbridge's speech at the welcoming feast that night--as McGonagall pointed out to Harry.

What if a power-mad Umbridge had decided that Harry and Hermione (as well as the other DA members) should be booted out of Hogwarts and their wands snapped? It may not have been possible at the time of Harry's hearing for the Ministry to overstep Dumbledore's authority at Hogwarts, but I'm sure that a decree would have been passed that made it permissible this time. Keeping that in mind, Hermione knew more than anyone--possibly including Harry himself--the seriousness of what they were all undertaking.

Marietta's treason could have gotten all of them--certainly the Gryffindor kids, against whom Umbridge already held a few grudges--expelled for sure. Hermione felt they all needed to know if there was someone in their midst who could not be trusted. The only way to know this for sure was to make sure that any jinx that went into effect was visible for all to see. If it had occurred on the offender's backsides--or if it had disappeared within a few hours--it is possible that no one might have gone unperceived by people who NEEDED to see it and know what had happened.

Again, I do believe it should be gone by the coming school year, especially now that Marietta's memory has been modified. But I believe the lesson will remain for all to remember and take to heart. And as far as Hermione not having "the right" to inflict the jinx, I disagree. She was one of the members whose safety was compromised. I believe the other kids should have perceived at once--unless they were too stupid to figure it out--that Hermione had organized this group. She was the one who was obviously in charge of all of the organizational issues, and she obviously took things seriously. Marietta should have been wiser. Caveat emptor.

I still say Marietta could have just dropped out of the DA and kept her mouth shut; but she didn't. She ran and blabbed to Umbridge. Since no one else in the DA had spots, it doesn't seem like anyone else forced her to do it or joined her.

Solitaire



Catherine - Oct 15, 2004 7:49 am (#770 of 2486)
In a well ordered culture and society Hermione would have been able to take Rita to court and receive just compensation, or merely complaining to Rita's editor would have seen justice done. --Tom Proffitt

Oh, yes. We've seen how well the courts and the laws work in the novels. We also know that complaining to Rita's editor would probably bring no relief, as even Rita acknowledges that The Daily Prophet exists to sell papers. It obviously does not report fairly, or in an unbaised manner up to now. Why should her editor care if a teen-aged Muggle-born is defamed in the paper? Giants are hated; Hagrid makes an big and easy target. Harry's fame sells papers. Where has this "editor" been all this time?

Hermione did not "extort" from Rita Skeeter.



TomProffitt - Oct 15, 2004 7:49 am (#771 of 2486)
My problems with Hermione's actions relate to after the fact, not before.

In the case of Rita, she caught her, good for her. Extortion was not the next appropriate step. It's turned out well for the group, but it is still extortion.

In the case of Marietta, she jinxed the parchment and Marietta got zitted. Okay, good for Hermione. Hermione should have sought resolution and closure before the train left Hogsmeade.

My original intention in this series of posts was to express my feeling that Hermione has a certain no-holds-barred determination to her when she feels injustice has been done. This is a character flaw in that it leads her to errors in judgment further down the line.

I appreciate anyone that loathes injustice as Hermione does. However, Hermione's righteous anger has been seen to lead her into error.

EDIT: double posted.

"Hermione did not "extort" from Rita Skeeter." --- Catherine

I consider the "Discontinue your preferred occupation, or else." to be extortion.



Catherine - Oct 15, 2004 8:00 am (#772 of 2486)
This is a character flaw in that it leads her to errors in judgment further down the line. --Tom Proffitt

Character flaw, or youth?

Again, I do not believe Hermione is "guilty" of the "crimes" of which she is accused.

I'm also concerned that she is being held to a much higher standard than other wizards her age.

EDIT: I consider the "Discontinue your preferred occupation, or else." to be extortion.

Actually, I think it was more like, "Refrain from writing for one year to see if you learn your lesson." It wasn't a permanent injunction. All Rita needs to do is get herself down to the Ministry and register herself as an Animagus and the point becomes nearly moot.

I also think that we will need to "agree to disagree" on this point, as I don't want this thread to become about the legal definition of extortion. Let's shake on it and move on.



Steve Newton - Oct 15, 2004 8:11 am (#773 of 2486)
Oh, yeah, it was blackmail, for sure. (Blackmail and extortion are the same, right?)

Although I understand the moral argument, I kind of go with the results. It up to the historians to show that you were moral.



TomProffitt - Oct 15, 2004 8:23 am (#774 of 2486)
"Character flaw, or youth?" --- Catherine

Character flaw in the literary sense. That is, I don't consider Hermione a horrible person, she is a well rounded literary character.

"I'm also concerned that she is being held to a much higher standard than other wizards her age."

I hold them all to the same standard, I just prefer to limit the number of threads I write on. I suppose I'll get around to venting my particular displeasures with all the various characters eventually, I just don't want to do them all at once.

"All Rita needs to do is get herself down to the Ministry and register herself as an Animagus and the point becomes nearly moot."

I've often wondered about this. Once out of the jar how was Hermione going to prove anything anyway? Perhaps deep down in Rita there's a moraled-justice-seeking-journalist who got squashed during VWI with all of the double standards set by Crouch and the Department of Magical Law Enforcement. Maybe Rita needed Hermione to slap her down and put her back to her idealistic youth. (Talk about weird way out theories)

"I also think that we will need to "agree to disagree" on this point, as I don't want this thread to become about the legal definition of extortion. Let's shake on it and move on."

Not a problem, if we all agreed on everything there wouldn't be any reason to post. (I'm a bit like Ron & Hermione, I like the verbal sparring)



Weeny Owl - Oct 15, 2004 8:48 am (#775 of 2486)
Most societies don't like for the citizenry to take justice into their own hands. After all, isn't that what the Death Eaters would claim that they are doing?

The Death Eaters go after anyone and everyone just because these people aren't magical or because they're Aurors trying to save their world from fanatics. The Death Eaters are adults whose intent is to harm.

What Solitaire said about the conquences should Umbridge find out about the DA and what Catherine said about the editors of the Daily Prophet make it obvious (to me, at least) that Hermione knew her options were limited as to how she could protect the DA from Umbridge and protect herself and her friends from even more damage from Rita.

If Hermione had been really vindictive, she wouldn't have bothered giving Rita a year to keep quiet, but would have turned her in immediately and let Rita languish in Azkaban.

If Hermione had been really vindictive, she could have used something that would have been much worse than having "SNEAK" written across Marietta's face.

She's trying to do what she can to protect herself and those she cares about. Her methods may not be what they should be, but she's a young lady who is still growing and learning, and who is trying her best in a new world.



Tomoé - Oct 15, 2004 8:53 am (#776 of 2486)
My problem with the Rita Steeker affair is not that Hermione bargained her out of the way for one year, but that she make her do the interview unpaid. And I'm not talking about money, she could have released her a month earlier or give the right to write one article on the subject of her choice in the publication of her choice (with Hermione's corrections of course). Instead, Rita gained nothing from the interview, while the Lovegood are able to go in a summer trip and the Daily Prophet likely gained even more. Talk about resentment. Unless Rita win the Wizarding Pulitzer, she will not be paid for it at all and that could backfire nastily in the books to come.

In the Marietta affair, Hermione's jinxed parchment was the right thing to do (though I would have make the traitor mute too), but she should have told them the parchment was jinxed on the second meeting. She should have told them they would have SNEAK zipped on their face with no specific on which jinx she used of course. Just in case some of them were too thick to think she could have done it or the jinxes will not be that bad *cough*Marietta*cough*. It should have be used as a dissuasive device as well as a punishing device. Plus, she shouldn't have let the zip works for that long, she shouldn't have let Marietta go home with it. Mme Pomfrey, who use to be able to fix everything, wasn't able to cure her, nor were the other teachers. Maybe the healers in St Mungo's will be able to fix things up in the end, but that could lead to a rift between Gryffindor and Ravenclaws.



Steve Newton - Oct 15, 2004 8:59 am (#777 of 2486)
Tomoé, I think that Rita did gain from the interview and article. She has gotten back into 'respectable' journalism and has first shot at some very good sources. (She may now be on Lord V's little list, however.)



TomProffitt - Oct 15, 2004 9:12 am (#778 of 2486)
"[T]hough I would have make the traitor mute too .... " --- Tomoe

I think that did happen. If you reread that scene you will notice that Umbridge says that Marietta stopped talking after the zits appeared. We haven't heard her talk since.

"The Death Eaters are adults whose intent is to harm." --- Weeny Owl

Yes, of course they are. That, however, is not what the Death Eaters would claim. They would call it justice. The purpose (or one of the purposes) of government is to have a recognized group that decide for the whole which is harm and which is justice. When you have a government like the Fudge Administration, this mechanism is broken. I agree whole-heartedly with your last two sentences, her heart is in the right place, but she has not found the best answers.



Catherine - Oct 15, 2004 9:19 am (#779 of 2486)
Ok, Tom, what, given the circumstances, would have been the best things for Hermione to do?

And Tomoe, I would agree that Hermione did toe the line with the unpaid article, but I still say that Rita, had she been "sued" or otherwise held liable for damages, would have had to pay out much more.

There is, to me at least, a certain moral justice in the whole thing.



TomProffitt - Oct 15, 2004 9:30 am (#780 of 2486)
Catherine, I believe the ethically correct actions in the two cases are as follows:

1) In the case of Rita she should have taken Rita in a jar to Albus Dumbledore who, as Headmaster and Chairwizard of the Wizengamot, was the appropriate respected elder in a position of authority. She could then voice her grievance and expect Dumbledore, who is known for his wisdom, forgiving nature, and righteous anger, to reach an appropriate and acceptable conclusion.

2) In the case of Marietta, once Dumbledore was returned to Hogwarts, Hermione should have sought out Marietta and taken her before McGonagall and Flitwick and explain what she had done, why, and how to perform the counter curse. The heads of the two houses between them could work out the appropriate resolution. (Frankly I am concerned that neither of the two Heads of House have sought resolution of this, yet. They both have to know that Hermione is the only DA member capable of putting that jinx on the parchment.)

EDIT: Of course, neither of these two actions are as fun from a literary standpoint.



Catherine - Oct 15, 2004 9:46 am (#781 of 2486)
2) In the case of Marietta, once Dumbledore was returned to Hogwarts, Hermione should have sought out Marietta and taken her before McGonagall and Flitwick and explain what she had done, why, and how to perform the counter curse.--Tom Proffitt

Let's not forget that both Hermione and McGonagall were in hospital for a good while, and may have had other things besides Marietta's pimples to think about.

Hermione was seriously injured at the MoM, and one of her best friends lost a family member. She and her friends had made an amazing discovery about prophecies, and had the jubliant feeling of being proved right in The Daily Prophet. I think Marietta's pimples, comparitively speaking, weren't even on the radar.

That doesn't mean that I think Marietta deserves to be scarred for life, and I do think that things will work out all right in the end. They usually have, thus far.

Oh, and as for Hermione taking old Rita to Dumbledore, wasn't he a tad bit busy stopping Voldemort? How long was Hermione supposed to keep Rita buzzing in the jar before getting access to Dumbledore?



TomProffitt - Oct 15, 2004 9:52 am (#782 of 2486)
Catherine, I think it should have been resolved prior to the end of school. There are reasons why it wasn't, but I still think it should have been done.

Of course it could be a Harry and the Thestrals, or Harry getting the Marauders Map back, just not enough space in the denouement to reasonably put it in.

"Oh, and as for Hermione taking old Rita to Dumbledore, wasn't he a tad bit busy stopping Voldemort? How long was Hermione supposed to keep Rita buzzing in the jar before getting access to Dumbledore?"

Yes, he was busy, but he still has the responsibility of the post and would ungrudgingly fulfill his duty, even in so stressed a time. As it was Hermione kept Rita in the jar for at least week anyway.



Catherine - Oct 15, 2004 10:10 am (#783 of 2486)
As it was Hermione kept Rita in the jar for at least week anyway. --Tom Proffitt

LOL!

Let's add false imprisonment to the charges, shall we?

But, more seriously, if Hermione worried that Rita had overhead sensitive information on the window sill (while being at Hogwarts illegally, and as an illegal Animagus, I will add), would there not be a problem with bringing Rita before the Wizengamot? Who knows what she might say or do there? We've also seen in OoP that people were able to "bargain" with law enforcement if it meant that they could discredit Harry or Dumbledore. We also saw that that Dumbledore and Fudge had a "parting of the ways" just before that. Why would anyone as intelligent as Hermione think the Ministry is to be trusted at that point?

I don't see Hermione's bargain with Rita as unethical, or as extortion. I think JKR intended that scene to be humorous, and to show that Hermione has loosened up quite a bit when it comes to rules. I think if we're looking for flaws in Hermione's character, we should look elsewhere, and not in this particular situation.



Tomoé - Oct 15, 2004 10:25 am (#784 of 2486)
Steve Newton -> Tomoé, I think that Rita did gain from the interview and article. She has gotten back into 'respectable' journalism and has first shot at some very good sources. (She may now be on Lord V's little list, however.)

It will depend if Hermione give her another scoop (like the battle of DoM) fast enough.

Marietta could be jinxed mute Tom? ... now that you mention it ... that would mean she couldn't do a spell of the rest of the year, hopefully she wasn't in her OWLs or NEWTs year, but that should have lowered her marks for sure. Not that she didn't deserved it.

Right Catherine, an article for an article, that's sound fair. But Hermione should have told it that way.

Even if Marietta was out of Hermione's radar after the battle of the DoM, she did past their compartment in the train and Cho came back to the subject, she should have remembered to unjinx Marietta on the train or at least tell her what the jinxes were.

Edit : I think Hermione should have bring beetle Rita to Dumbledore, he have more experiences in that field of expertise (were the absolute borders of the law are, how far you can go, etc).



Catherine - Oct 15, 2004 10:38 am (#785 of 2486)
I guess I just think the idea of Rita in a little jar buzzing angrily at Hermione is just so funny, and I just love Hermione for having enough nerve to do it.



TomProffitt - Oct 15, 2004 10:40 am (#786 of 2486)
"Marietta could be jinxed mute Tom?" --- Tomoe

I'm pretty certain of it. There's not enough evidence to prove it, but that is how it seemed to me.

"Why would anyone as intelligent as Hermione think the Ministry is to be trusted at that point?" --- Catherine

I wasn't suggesting the Ministry, I was suggesting Dumbledore who was the Chairwizard of the Wizengamot at the time. I made the reference to establish his authority both in and out of Hogwarts. I trust Dumbledore, and I think Hermione would as well, to come to a solution which would appropriately punish Rita and protect the Order at the same time.



Catherine - Oct 15, 2004 10:53 am (#787 of 2486)
I was suggesting Dumbledore who was the Chairwizard of the Wizengamot at the time. I made the reference to establish his authority both in and out of Hogwarts.--Tom Proffitt

Yes, yes, Dumbledore is indeed a great wizard, naturally. But even he alone should not be imposing criminal sanctions? And hadn't Dumbledore already barred Rita from Hogwarts, which she ignored? And wasn't Fudge on his way back to undermine Dumbledore's authority with the Wizengamot?

Hermione beat Rita at her own game.



Paulus Maximus - Oct 15, 2004 11:21 am (#788 of 2486)
"that would mean she couldn't do a spell of the rest of the year"

On the contrary; it is not necessary to say the incantation to cast the spell. The incantation simply makes it more powerful.

The spell that (I forget which DE) fired at Hermione would have been more effective if he weren't silenced, but as it was, Hermione suffered considerable damage.



Tomoé - Oct 15, 2004 11:50 am (#789 of 2486)
But Dolohov is a trained wizard, he likely didn't perform that spell for the first time. Marietta on the other hand ...

And I still think bringing Rita to Dumbledore was the right thing to do, he's more experienced with edgy stuff, legal or illegal and what's the right thing to do, legally or illegally. Hermione is no good in politic, and that's what it takes to deal with Rita's case, politic not justice (and I not talking of institutional politic here, I'm talking about "wild politic").



Loopy Lupin - Oct 15, 2004 12:44 pm (#790 of 2486)
Dear, dear, dear. Between Marcus trying to kill Hermione off on the the 'ship thread and now Hermione being roundly disparaged over here, I'm truly beside myself.

I have the distinct feeling that DD is and was well aware of what Hermione was up to regarding Rita and was quite comfortable letting Hermione handle it as she did. Rita could have been very damaging to the Order, Hermione silenced her, and ultimately put her to good use. Well played, I say. What is more, do not forget that Hermione did not go looking for trouble. Rita started this whole thing, she underestimated Hermione and she has now paid the price for doing so.

Marietta. Mmm. I must be honest and disclose that I've had my reservations about Marietta's fate before in comparing Hermione's actions to the actions of everyone's sweetheart, Pansy. Smile Still, the fact remains that Marietta had the clear choice. She did not have to betray 27 other people to Umbridge and did not have to go back on her word and pledge. That she faced consequences for doing so though gets little sympathy from me.



Tomoé - Oct 15, 2004 1:10 pm (#791 of 2486)
Never said Rita didn't deserve what she get, I just said Hermione is pushing her luck a little too far with the unpaid article. She know Rita is ready to take illegal means to achieve her ends, Hermione could well end up killed if she ask too much from the beetle.

Marietta did betray 27 other people to Umbridge and she willingly did so, but there's no need to create a doplomatic incident with the non-DA Ravenclaws for making the spell works longer that needed. Marietta get the point after a month. Add Cho who dropped Harry for bad beavior in date and Michael who get dinched by Ginny ... the perspective Ravenclaw/Gryffindor are not good. Add Padma's bad date with Ron in the picture ...

Edit : We are talking of mind games, here. While Marietta is still a teen, Rita is a adult with many more years of experience in mind games than Hermione have. Dumbledore is a skilled mind gamer, she should have leave the matter into his hands.



Loopy Lupin - Oct 15, 2004 1:42 pm (#792 of 2486)
Dumbledore is a skilled mind gamer, she should have leave the matter into his hands.-- Tomoe

On the contrary, I think Hermione has quite a firm grasp of how adults treat one another.



Catherine - Oct 15, 2004 1:55 pm (#793 of 2486)
Hermione seems to have done quite well matching wits with Rita.

In the end, I don't see what she did as morally or ethically wrong.

I think an important part of JKR's message is that young people do have power.



Prefect Marcus - Oct 15, 2004 2:59 pm (#794 of 2486)
I think it underhanded for Hermione to hex that membership list without telling the potential listees what the consequences were for them to sign it. If I recall correctly, she didn't even tell them that if they signed the paper, they would have to keep D.A. secret.

Second, after the hex became active on Marietta, I think it wrong for Hermione to leave it there. That is just spite, nothing more. If you say that Marietta deserved it, then I have to ask you who made Hermione Judge, Jury, Executioner, and Parole Board?

Hermione is still my favorite character. Rowling has made her human. She has her faults just as we all do. It is her good points that I prefer to dwell upon.

Sort of like another girl with a few not-so-nice traits I could mention.



Catherine - Oct 15, 2004 3:28 pm (#795 of 2486)
If I recall correctly, she didn't even tell them that if they signed the paper, they would have to keep D.A. secret. --Marcus

Hermione made it crystal clear that they were agreeing to keep everything quiet, especially from Umbridge herself:

"I-I think everybody should write their name down, jsut so we know who was here. But I also think," she took a deep breath, "that we all ought to agree not to shout about what we're doing. Sof if you sign, you're agreeing not to tell Umbridge---or anybody else---what we're up to." (p. 346, OoP,Scholastic hardback)

I think that secret-keeping is important in the Wizarding World, and we know from GoF that magical contracts are binding. Marietta doesn't deserve purple pimples forever, but fidelity is importent.



Czarina II - Oct 15, 2004 3:34 pm (#796 of 2486)
Amazing! 37 posts since I last read this thread, and I pretty much agree with all of you! Wonderful.

Hermione. Hermione, Hermione, Hermione -- so mature we forget that she's still a kid sometimes! But is it entirely an excuse? For all her smarts, she does tend to get ahead of herself.



Chemyst - Oct 15, 2004 3:45 pm (#797 of 2486)
Whoa! Over 40 posts in the last 24 hours!

First: (Blackmail and extortion are the same, right?) - Steve Newton
Close. In black mail you force someone to do something or you'll expose what they want to hide, and in extortion you illegally force someone to pay you. Blackmail is the act of forcing somebody to pay money or do something by threatening to reveal shameful or incriminating facts about him or her. Extortion is the crime of obtaining something such as money from somebody using illegal methods of persuasion

And Now...
Where's Marietta's remorse? Where's her repentance? Where's the asking of forgiveness? Has Marietta even asked Hermione to remove the jinx? If she's mute, has she written an apology? What if part of the jinx stipulated that restitution had to be made for it to lift? OK, maybe I'm edging further toward fantasy there, but should we trash Hermione for not lifting the jinx if Marietta hasn't seen fit to ask? Nope, Marietta just walked on by.



wickedweasley - Oct 15, 2004 3:51 pm (#798 of 2486)
Edited by Oct 15, 2004 3:51 pm
If Marietta has had her memory altered is she able to apologise, by that I mean has her memory been altered to such an extent that she does not recall that DA exists and therefore has no recollection of her betrayal.



Chemyst - Oct 15, 2004 4:03 pm (#799 of 2486)
My thoughts on memory alteration have already been stated on the Marietta thread. But even if she couldn't remember, then why show more anger toward Hermione than has been shown toward Shacklebolt? DD praised him for his spell on Marietta. Loss of memory is more severe than cursive acne.



Prefect Marcus - Oct 15, 2004 4:04 pm (#800 of 2486)
Edited by Oct 15, 2004 4:05 pm
Thank-you, Catherine. At least she stated what they had to agree to before signing.

Of course she left out the eensy, teensy, tiny little detail about the hidden enforcement clause embedded deep inside the list. :-)

Chemyst, Since you brought it up, should Hermione wait to be asked? "I refuse to show you any mercy or forgiveness until you come crawling on your hands and knees begging me for it!"

Hermione seems to have appointed herself Judge, Jury, Executioner, and Parole Board. Not a very attractive side of her, is it?

But as I said. She has her faults. Don't we all?

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Catherine - Oct 15, 2004 4:19 pm (#801 of 2486)
Hermione seems to have appointed herself Judge, Jury, Executioner, and Parole Board. Not a very attractive side of her, is it? --Marcus

Um, who got executed? Who from the DA has even been in jail?

I don't think that Hermione appointed herself the judge. The parchment did that. How neutral can you get!?!

As for jury-- her peers already did that part. None of the other students were sneaky snitches. Their votes were cast in silence.

Hermione is not to blame if someone made a poor choice. Marietta didn't blab to a random boyfriend; she specifically told Umbridge, which activated the jinx.

Hermione acted defensively, not offensively. I'd be proud to call her my friend. Too bad for Marietta.



Chemyst - Oct 15, 2004 4:33 pm (#802 of 2486)
...should Hermione wait to be asked?
Do you mean, should Hermione make the first move to forgive someone who intentionally broke a contract even though that person behaves as though she still feels justified in breaking it?



Prefect Marcus - Oct 15, 2004 6:51 pm (#803 of 2486)
Chemyst,

Short answer. Yes.

Do you wish Hermione to be like Snape - even Sirius, nursing grudges from long forgotten events?

Holding a grudge usually hurts the holder far more than the target. The target gets to move on with their life. The grudge holder festers in the past. You would want Hermione to expose herself to that?

Time to move on. Get over it. We all make mistakes. Judge others by the same standard you wish to be judged, ie.: with mercy and forgiveness.



TomProffitt - Oct 15, 2004 8:43 pm (#804 of 2486)
Y'all, it's a pleasure to see what a hornet's nest I've stirred up.

This all started when I was listening to GoF on CD. I got to the part where Hermione got all of the hate mail and it blossomed in my thought process that Hermione can be vindictive.

Rita and Marietta were my two examples of Hermione's vindictiveness.

I would still very much want Hermione as my friend, even with her warts. She isn't perfect, but she certainly strives to make herself the best that she can be. We could all benefit with trying to be more like Hermione.



Weeny Owl - Oct 15, 2004 8:51 pm (#805 of 2486)
I don't see that Hermione is holding a grudge. She's had quite a few things on her mind, not the least of which is her almost dying.

I also don't see her as vindictive. She took steps to protect a group of people and told them ahead of time that they were making a promise. Rita hurt her... her reputation, her body, and relationship with Molly. All Hermione did was to protect herself and her friends for a year.



TomProffitt - Oct 15, 2004 8:59 pm (#806 of 2486)
"I also don't see her as vindictive. She took steps to protect a group of people and told them ahead of time that they were making a promise. Rita hurt her... her reputation, her body, and relationship with Molly. All Hermione did was to protect herself and her friends for a year." --- Weeny Owl

After Hermione was injured by the undiluted bubotuber puss she became determined to even the score with Rita. I see the lengths she went to to even the score and see justice served as being somewhat vindictive. I most certainly would not call vindictiveness Hermione's defining character trait. I merely submit that it is a characteristic she possesses to a certain degree (significantly more than Ron, for example).



Solitaire - Oct 15, 2004 9:17 pm (#807 of 2486)
Tom, Rita hurt a lot more people than just Hermione. She caused a lot of misery to Harry, and she "outted" Hagrid as a half-giant (okay, most people had guessed ... but it was a cruel thing to do). I think she might have let what happened to herself pass, if Rita had stopped there. But she didn't. I think what Rita did with regard to Hagrid really tipped the scales against her.

Question for those who think Hermione went too far with Rita: Should she have simply gone to the Ministry and reported that Rita was an unregistered animagus who was using her transforming ability unscrupulously to spy on people and spread rumors and lies? After all, isn't Rita breaking the Wizarding Law?

Solitaire



TomProffitt - Oct 15, 2004 9:28 pm (#808 of 2486)
I think Hermione should have gone to Dumbledore. Hermione doesn't have a single other mentor with the authority (both in and out of Hogwarts) and who has such a great reputation for both doing the right thing and discretion.

I'm not defending either Rita or Marietta in my series of posts, I am merely asserting that Hermione has not made the best choices in how to resolve these two issues. I submit that Hermione is not to be satisfied with mere justice, but wants a bit of vengeance as well. While not a shining character trait, it isn't really that bad either.



Tomoé - Oct 15, 2004 9:59 pm (#809 of 2486)
I too think she should have handle Rita with Dumbledore so he could sort things out in an unofficial way. He's a master in unofficial bargains. Hermione didn't went too far, Rita deserved a punishment, but she took a very dangerous way in doing unoffical bargains with a woman well versed in illegal stuff.



Solitaire - Oct 15, 2004 10:15 pm (#810 of 2486)
I agree with Tomoé here. Hermione didn't do anything Rita didn't deserve. But she is playing a dangerous game "with a woman well versed in illegal stuff," as Tomoé says--and we all know Rita is unscrupulous to use illegal methods ... because that is what caused this problem in the first place.

Hermione may have the upper hand in that "partnership" for the moment, but Rita will gain it back eventually and she will want revenge--BIG revenge--against the one who shut her up.

I have to say that Rita's animagus seems rather "vulnerable" to me. Imagine how easy it would be to smash a beetle. A split-second movement is all it would take. Or do you suppose she could transform quickly enough to prevent that?

Just curious ...

Solitaire



Tomoé - Oct 15, 2004 10:21 pm (#811 of 2486)
If Hermione was fast enough to caught the beettle, she was fast enough to smash her into oblivion.

Solitaire -> Hermione may have the upper hand in that "partnership" for the moment, but Rita will gain it back eventually and she will want revenge--BIG revenge--against the one who shut her up.

My thought exactly.



The giant squid - Oct 15, 2004 11:06 pm (#812 of 2486)
You've all weighed in pretty well on the Hermione/Rita situation, but what I'm wondering about is the Marietta thing.

The key part of the argument stems from the assumption that Marietta's face still said SNEAK at the end of term. Do we really know that? All we know is that when they were disembarking the Hogwarts Express Harry passed Cho & Marietta, who was wearing a balaclava (OoP, US paperback p. 865). Who's to say the jinx hadn't been lifted, but there was some scarring or residual effects that prompted Marietta's fashion choice? Heck, for that matter, maybe she just prefers to wear balaclavas. I'm all for spirited debate, but making complex determinations based on a single sentence is kinda chancy. I'm reserving opinion until we hear more about young miss Edgecombe in book 6.

--Mike



Tomoé - Oct 15, 2004 11:15 pm (#813 of 2486)
Unless she became Muslim over the spring, why on earth would she were a balaclava in June?

Beside the Muslim balaclava, weren't balaclava some winter hat that cover all the head except two holes for the eyes and sometimes a hole for the mouth? Who beside bank robers would were that in June?



The giant squid - Oct 15, 2004 11:21 pm (#814 of 2486)
I'm not saying she did wear it for fun, I'm saying we don't know she didn't. Subtle but key difference there.



Tessa's Dad - Oct 15, 2004 11:30 pm (#815 of 2486)
Marietta could be wearing the balaclava in hopes that people would stop staring. How many students would wonder what was the real story behind Dumbledore’s vanishing act, Marietta’s pimples, and the wild stories about Hermoine’s jinx. Not to mention something called the DA.

Race car drivers wear balaclavas in June.



Catherine - Oct 16, 2004 5:48 am (#816 of 2486)
After Hermione was injured by the undiluted bubotuber puss she became determined to even the score with Rita. --Tom Proffitt

I didn't read the scene that way at all.

Rather, I think that Hermione is extremely motivated to solve the mystery behind Rita's eavesdropping. Rita keeps having access to intimate conversations, and Hermione doesn't like not knowing how Rita has accomplished this. Hermione also realizes that Rita is obviously flouting Dumbledore's orders that she stay away from Hogwarts.

I read that scene as Hermione was in pain, fumbling with her food, and extremely frustrated that Rita gets away with telling lies and violating privacy.



Weeny Owl - Oct 16, 2004 6:33 am (#817 of 2486)
I agree, Catherine.

Hermione didn't seem to be wanting revenge but rather to get to the truth and stop all the harm Rita was doing.



TomProffitt - Oct 16, 2004 8:00 am (#818 of 2486)
"I didn't read the scene that way at all." --- Catherine

You're right, I've identified the wrong scene. I would likely remember where it was better if I had been reading, as opposed to listening in my truck on the way to work, but there was a specific point in GoF where Hermione's resolution leaps out at you. It is as though she has had a sudden epiphany. This was the scene that made me say "My, my, you sound a bit vindictive, my dear." And in this particular scene it did sound like a desire for revenge.



Chemyst - Oct 16, 2004 8:35 am (#819 of 2486)
...should Hermione wait to be asked?
Do you mean, should Hermione make the first move to forgive someone who intentionally broke a contract even though that person behaves as though she still feels justified in breaking it?
...Short answer. Yes. Do you wish Hermione to be like Snape - even Sirius, nursing grudges from long forgotten events? [...] The grudge holder festers in the past. You would want Hermione to expose herself to that?

In real life, a mature person of good character would be quick to forgive the repentant wrongdoer without bending their morals to excuse the wrongdoing. But this is a story and Hermione is not a pillar of maturity. I think Hermione currently believes the parchment functioned as intended and the score is even. I don't think she is likely to make the first move to repair a relationship with Marietta.

But the only point I was intending to make was that Marietta has yet to assume some of the responsibility for her condition. As Squidmike has pointed out, "Who's to say the jinx hadn't been lifted?" Here's a thought: perhaps Marietta has a face as clear as a dove soap commercial but is wearing the balaclava to turn people against Hermione!

The only "proof' we have at this point is Marietta's lack of action. (Oh dear, did I just say that? This isn't going well.) Not acting is very weak and flimsy proof. If Marietta ever "faces" up to what she's done and Hermione still holds it against her, then you are free to classify her along with Snape and Sirius as a grudge holder. And I will support you.



Mrs Brisbee - Oct 16, 2004 8:54 am (#820 of 2486)
Tom Proffitt said: "I submit that Hermione is not to be satisfied with mere justice, but wants a bit of vengeance as well."

Well, maybe. I think the case with Rita is that Rita made it personal, so Hermione became her Nemesis. Problem is, Hermione is very smart and she is able to figure things out and hatch elaborate plans that more or less work. Other characters tend to be more confrontational with their antagonists.

I don't know why Dumbledore would bother to save that Umbridge toad from the centaurs, but not do anything about Marietta's predicament. Perhaps because pimples aren't life threatening he's leaving it for Hermione, the DA, and Marietta to hash out. Which I'm sure will happen in book 6.



Tomoé - Oct 16, 2004 8:55 am (#821 of 2486)
Tessa's dad -> Race car drivers wear balaclavas in June.

LOL! yes they do. ^_^ Do you think Marietta is broom racing around the school?



Tessa's Dad - Oct 16, 2004 9:31 am (#822 of 2486)
How fast does she want to get away from Hermoine?



Prefect Marcus - Oct 16, 2004 9:36 am (#823 of 2486)
If Marietta ever "faces" up to what she's done and Hermione still holds it against her, then you are free to classify her along with Snape and Sirius as a grudge holder. And I will support you.

And if both parties feel wronged by the other, and both are waiting for the other to apologize, you are saying that neither one can be classified as a grudge holder?



Solitaire - Oct 16, 2004 12:06 pm (#824 of 2486)
Tomoé: Unless she became Muslim over the spring, why on earth would she were a balaclava in June

Tessa's Dad: Race car drivers wear balaclavas in June.

Thanks for the SPEW, guys! **mopping coffee out of my keyboard and off my screen** Perhaps Marietta has a secret summer life about which we know nothing, involving both of the above.

Wearing a balaclava in June when one is not required to do so for religious reasons (or racing safety) does seem kind of odd--unless she is planning to knock over a bank when the Hogwarts Express arrives in London. I immediately assumed she was wearing it to hide her SNEAK face; but I suppose the pimples could be gone and she is just too embarrassed to "face" her fellow DA members. I'm curious ... Other than Cho, have any of her fellow Ravenclaw DA members--or ANY of the other DA members--mentioned the jinx or spoken out against it? That would be interesting to know.

TomProffitt: if I had been reading, as opposed to listening in my truck on the way to work

I occasionally read aloud to my language arts students, Tom, and I am a better-than-average oral reader (one of my few talents). I have often demonstrated to my kids--particularly when we are doing oral interpretations or reading plays--how the way in which a passage of literature is read can completely change its meaning. Just a change in where one pauses--or a slight shade in the way in which a word is emphasized--can give a speech or phrase an entirely different meaning and evoke a completely different emotion.

We already know from reading this forum that it is possible for fve people to interpret the same passage of a book in five entirely different ways. Even when we read silently, most of us hear the characters in our heads, and they speak the lines as we understand them. I'm not sure it's fair to make a pronouncement on a character's state of mind based on a reader's interpretation. Just my 2 knuts ...

Solitaire



TomProffitt - Oct 16, 2004 12:47 pm (#825 of 2486)
Solitaire, what I think has gone by in this discussion is the objection of a number of people to two words I have used, vindictive and vengeance. I think Hermione can be vindictive. I think she wanted vengeance against Rita. I don't believe either are defining characteristics of Hermione, but I believe both are present to a certain degree. If I was asked for five words to describe Hermione, neither of those two would show up in my list, but when given the opportunity to define the larger broader character, it is something I think should be mentioned as part of her.

In much the same way that Harry's thirst to prove himself may show a bit of a Slytherin in him, Hermione's righteous anger may show just a bit of a Slytherin in her. It does not do Hermione a disservice to say she may have some flaws, it is the human condition.



Solitaire - Oct 16, 2004 1:30 pm (#826 of 2486)
Tom, I think a lot of us simply feel that vengeance may not really be the correct term. I, for one, think justice is a better term, given the situation. And perhaps I feel that way because I know I would be too chicken to do anything about Rita myself; so I admire Hermione in this instance for stopping someone I consider loathsome. She knew the Ministry would never do anything about Rita, so she handled it herself, the way things have probably been handled in the Wizarding World for years.

Rita has not really been harmed. She has simply been stopped from pursuing her profession in a dishonorable way. Hermione has tried to stop her from continuing to ruin innocent lives for her own profit and glory. A smart witch like Rita had to know that if she continued her deceitful ways, sooner or later she was going to get caught in her own trap.

In a very real way, she is a lot like Lockhart--except smarter and perhaps slightly less evil. She may not obliviate her victims' memories, but she certainy assassinates their characters with her words.

Harry, Hermione, and Hagrid were all helpless against the Ministry propaganda machine, of which Rita was a major contributing part. Once Hermione learned her duplicitous secret, however, she simply turned the tables on Rita. She was still not able to completely silence the Ministry propaganda, but she did force Rita to tell the truth. Rita didn't even have to go in search of her article; it landed in her lap. She was paid for her article (wasn't she?), and it was reprinted in the Prophet, giving her new notoriety and acclaim with her old readers.

I'm not usually an "ends justify the means" kind of girl, but I think Rita got a fair and just "sentence." After all, Hermione could have jinxed Rita's Quick Quill to carve the word "liar" into her forehead every time Rita wrote an untruth. Then again, that might have been a more just and fair sentence, given the crimes.

As for the jinxed parchment, it could just as easily have labeled anyone who broke the pact--including some of our favorite Gryffindors--and Hermione knew this. Hermione was not taking vindictive action against anyone; she was simply trying to prevent a betrayal.

Solitaire



TomProffitt - Oct 16, 2004 1:46 pm (#827 of 2486)
Found the quote:

"I hate that Skeeter woman!" she [Hermione] burst out savagely. "I'll get her back for this if it's the last thing I do!"

Jo's italics. GoF, US, hardcover, p546, "The Madness of Mr. Crouch"

My thoughts when listening to this quote were along the line of "My, my, calm down girl, you're sounding a bit vindictive." I believe the quote implies a desire for vengeance.



Solitaire - Oct 16, 2004 2:09 pm (#828 of 2486)
LOL Tom! I wish I had a dollar for every time I've heard a junior high girl utter something similar: "I'll get even if it's the last thing I do!"

Sometimes they attempt to get even; more often, they are the best of friends a day or two later. What would make Hermione continue her pursuit for justice would most likely be Rita's continued tirade of lies and injustices against people. I can't say I blame her there.



TomProffitt - Oct 16, 2004 2:19 pm (#829 of 2486)
I don't think I've ever said I blamed her, or that what she has done wasn't understandable, I've only said she hasn't made the best choices she could have.

If I were Hermione I would hope I'd have the foresight and gumption to do as she did.

If Hermione were my daughter, I'd hope she'd exercise a bit more discretion. And I'd stand up for her no matter what, because I know that in her heart she's trying to do the right thing.



haymoni - Oct 16, 2004 2:39 pm (#830 of 2486)
Wow! 55 posts on our beloved Ms. Granger!

Tomoe/Solitare - Rita was not paid for the Quibbler article but I cannot imagine that she allowed the Daily Prophet to publish her article for free!

About Marietta and her spots - Dumbledore obviously knew from the session in his office that Marietta had the spots. When he was "reinstated" as Headmaster, why didn't he remove them? Maybe he is a bit "vindictive" as well?



Solitaire - Oct 16, 2004 2:48 pm (#831 of 2486)
Hm ... are Dumbledore and Hermione in cahoots? BTW, thanks, Haymoni ... I couldn't remember.



TomProffitt - Oct 16, 2004 3:05 pm (#832 of 2486)
"About Marietta and her spots - Dumbledore obviously knew from the session in his office that Marietta had the spots. When he was "reinstated" as Headmaster, why didn't he remove them? Maybe he is a bit "vindictive" as well?" --- haymoni

Dumbledore strikes me as the type to obtain resolution by getting the offending parties together and forcing them to do right by each other, rather than doing it himself. I can only think of two reasons why this hasn't happened.

One, with everything going on he's been too short for time to force the resolution.

Two, he has (and we haven't been told about it), but Hermione's jinx was more powerful they any of us have surmised. That is, it either cannot be undone, requires a long healing process (over the summer), or in some other way is not so easy to fix as we might think. I have a hard time seeing this unless as a measure of discipline for both Hermione and Marietta Dumbledore is requiring the two to work together on the cure.

Oh, and there's a third, there was too much going on in the denouement for Jo to slip this bit in. Doesn't seem to fit in with the balaclava on the train.



Phoenix song - Oct 16, 2004 3:14 pm (#833 of 2486)
I'm truly surprised at the amount of activity on the Hermione thread lately. I'm afraid that Severus is suffering greatly!

By the way, Marcus, I'm with you about Hermione and Pansy fighting. That would be one battle that I'd want to be front row with a bucket of popcorn to watch for sure. The Harry/Draco duel would have nothing on this one! Girls can be really vicious when they fight, and I'd hate to even guess how the addition of magic would escalate this particular "cat fight". Pansy may wind up limping away from this one so disfigured that even her pimples would be sprouting pimples.

Barbie



Tessa's Dad - Oct 16, 2004 3:26 pm (#834 of 2486)
Tom,

I don’t buy the idea that Dumbledore would get involved and force a resolution. Sirius and Snape were forced together only after nearly two decades had passed. I believe he’ll let Hermione find her own way to a resolution as He does with Harry. He’s the kind of Teacher that allows his students the freedom to learn some things on their own. He observes them closer than we fully realize, but he does keep an eye on them.

I believe that Hermione has already removed the jinx. The jinx has served its purpose. Since the Ministry has admitted that Lord Moldywart has returned, secrecy is not a priority. If she has not, then the rest of the DA are going to very worried.



haymoni - Oct 16, 2004 3:59 pm (#835 of 2486)
Maybe all Marietta needed was some ProActive!



Tomoé - Oct 16, 2004 4:38 pm (#836 of 2486)
haymoni -> Tomoe/Solitare - Rita was not paid for the Quibbler article but I cannot imagine that she allowed the Daily Prophet to publish her article for free!

We know the Quibbler have been paid for the article, that's why the Lovegood will do a trip over summer, people who write for the Quibbler are not paid, they are glad to be published, it sounds like the Quibbler own the right of the interview, not Rita.



haymoni - Oct 16, 2004 5:20 pm (#837 of 2486)
We really don't know if Rita is a free-lance writer or an actual employee of the Daily Prophet.

Whether she was compensated in some way, we don't know but surely her stock at the Daily Prophet went up. I'm sure she'll be looking for more info from Harry.



MickeyCee3948 - Oct 16, 2004 7:51 pm (#838 of 2486)
Tom Proffit - I haven't read this thread for several days but when I came back on today I read more than 90 posts to see if this was going to continue to go on.

The overwelming theme of this series of books is our choices. Mess up and pay the price. It's that easy.

Hermione didn't force Marietta to take the action she took. I believe she got what she deserved and as pointed out in other posts, either Dumbledore or Professor McGonagall could have removed the zits. They obviously wanted her and the rest of the students to understand the consequences of their actions.

Hermione also didn't cause the problems with Rita. Rita did it on her own by violating Wizard law. She just is being made to PAY for her actions. Or maybe she would have preferred a year in Azkaban.

As for Umbridge. Hermione only lit the match, Umbridge started the blaze with her arrogance and prejudice in the forest. As far as I am concerned she still hasn't gotten what she deserves for her actions aganist a bunch of young teenagers and the rest of the Hogwarts staff.

Someone 50 or 60 posts back stated it best. This is a war. Hermione's actions were rather mild in my opinion. I doubt if Voldemort had gotten hold of Rita, that he will let her off with not writing for a year. Hermione was probably the first of the group to understand the seriousness of what was happening.

Give Hermione a break and have a stoat sandwich or two

Mikie



fortuna major - Oct 16, 2004 8:34 pm (#839 of 2486)
You know, I'm sorta with Tom on this one. Vindictiveness isn't a defining characteristic of Hermione, but it definitely is there. In a discussion on another thread about the "good Slytherin" someone else mentioned that Jo's lines between good and bad were becoming a little more blurred. I think that's what this is. Harry's bursts of anger and Hermione's intent on revenge are just Jo's illustrations that the good guys aren't all good just as we expect the "good Slytherin" to show that maybe the bad guys aren't all bad. The next Dark Lord, no, not quite perfect, obviously.

I enjoy this part of Hermione's character because it makes her more realistic and more believable. She wasn't meant, IMO, to be a goody-two-shoes forever. Many of us wish that we had the guts to do something like that when we see injustice. But why don't we? Deep down inside we know that vigilantism isn't the way to go. These seem like two cases where her personal passion and Gryfindor courage have overridden her almost-a-Ravenclaw intelligence in finding a more appropriate solution to her issues.

I do, however, disagree strongly with someone saying that she hasn't done anything morally wrong, though I do accept that everyone's personal morals are different. Obviously wizarding laws work differently than Muggle laws in cases like slander and libel, but I would assume that blackmail is still illegal. If it isn't, I would contend that it is still morally wrong and that, justified or not, imprisonment and using blackmail to keep someone from being able to work is at least a little bit of a no-no. Though I am open to the arguments that both deserved what they got (because I would certainly like to agree) I think that taking Rita's animagus state to the proper authorities, like Dumbledore, and at least telling a teacher which curse she used so that they can find a countercurse (especially since Marietta doesn't remember what she's supposed to be apologizing for) would have been more morally and legally appropriate (albeit less fun to read about) courses of action, IMHO.

Many have pointed out that HRH are just kids and I agree (at the ripe old age of 21). They are all at that stage of adolescence where they are trying to discover for themselves their own personal set of morals and values. I simply think that in these two cases someone, (Dumbledore, McGonagall, Molly, etc) should make the attempt to steer Hermione back in the right direction before her vigilantism causes problems in the future (for herself or the Order).

Maybe this foreshadows a quest by Hermione for vengeance in the 6th or 7th book causing problems for the Order?

EDIT: Edited for word choice.



TomProffitt - Oct 16, 2004 8:46 pm (#840 of 2486)
Thank you for your support, fortuna major. I believe that is an accurate summation of my position.

One of the greatest strengths of Jo's writing is the depth of her characters. What gives them depth is that they are not stereotyped goody goodies, or vice versa.

Snape is a much better character being on our side than if he were Voldemort's spy at Hogwart's. Hermione is a much better character by not being perfect.



Hollywand - Oct 16, 2004 9:16 pm (#841 of 2486)
I've been following this discussion and would like to contribute this perspective:

Hermione's character garners lots of criticism for being "Little Miss Perfect", whatever that means. If Hermione had gone through all the proper authority channels as suggested above, I'm sure there would be some criticism of her for following official protocol.

What I enjoy about Hermione's solutions to Rita and to Marietta is what I enjoy about the wizarding world Rowling creates. Close to reality, but skewed a bit. Hermione's resourceful solution to a character like Rita Skeeter get at the real harm journalists do by publishing hyperbole, as Solitaire points out in the discussion above. Jo has probably been through the journalistic gauntlet, what with her books being burned and some of the untruths in the Rubbish Bin and Rumors books. Jo can have it both ways: expose the truth on her website, and have Hermione turn the tables on the journalist.

Poetic justice.



TomProffitt - Oct 16, 2004 9:28 pm (#842 of 2486)
I agree Hollywand, sometimes in Jo's world we get What the World ought to be like, even when know there are reasons why it cannot be so.



Kelly Kapaoski - Oct 17, 2004 3:50 am (#843 of 2486)
I will have to agree with the fact that Hermione Granger let Rita Skeeter off light compaired to what the death eaters would have done if someone like Bellatrix Found out that she was spying on them.



wickedweasley - Oct 17, 2004 4:19 am (#844 of 2486)
Edited by Oct 17, 2004 4:21 am
Considering Hermione's strong need for justice or vengance (depending on your personal viewpoint), how do you think she would react if has been previously suggested her parents became a target in the next book and were injured or killed by the Death Eaters? Could her actions causeher to endager herself her friends or the whole Order



Hollywand - Oct 17, 2004 5:46 am (#845 of 2486)
Wickedweasley, Hermione did stay Harry's hand in the MoM battle, against a DE babyhead that was clearly trying to harm her and her compadre. She also chose curses to arrest the DE's but not hurt them, (ie, Silencio).

Hermione's patronus "otter" will surely appear and this water weasel will surely play an interesting role in the forthcoming story. It's curious that Hermy's patronus is so close the Harry's last name. HMMM.



Kelly Kapaoski - Oct 17, 2004 7:06 am (#846 of 2486)
she will definatly have to learn how to play alot rougher then she is now since the death eaters who got away at the MoM know she hangs out with harry. also with hermione's patronus being an otter I think JK rowling put that in there because her favorite animal is an otter



Catherine - Oct 17, 2004 7:50 am (#847 of 2486)
Kelly, I do agree with you that JKR gave Hermione an otter patronus because she really likes otters and other members of the weasel family.

It is interesting, though, that an otter is a "weasel," and we have the "Weasley" family, and that "otter" is only one letter away from "Potter." I don't think it is too far-fetched to see possible connections here. JKR has shown in the past that she likes word games.



Elanor - Oct 17, 2004 8:12 am (#848 of 2486)
About word games, we can add another one to that list: the Weasley family lives in Oterry St Catchpole...



Robert Dierken - Oct 17, 2004 8:54 am (#849 of 2486)
I suspect that Ottery Saint Catchpole is along the Otter River, which is not far from Exeter!



Chemyst - Oct 17, 2004 9:29 am (#850 of 2486)
And if both parties feel wronged by the other, and both are waiting for the other to apologize, you are saying that neither one can be classified as a grudge holder? - Marcus

That's currently too hypothetical. Ask me again after Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince. At this point in time, I think Hermione is content that the parchment worked. Marietta has not acted as one holding a grudge– not where Harry could comment to clue the reader.

...that otter do it for an answer.

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Solitaire - Oct 17, 2004 10:08 am (#851 of 2486)
Hermione has been described as vindictive and vengeful, but those terms apply to someone who responds after the fact of an injury or betrayal, don't they? Hermione was not responding to Marietta's betrayal when she jinxed the parchment. She had simply taken steps to prevent a betrayal, and everyone was subject to the same results of the jinx--even Hermione herself--if they betrayed the group. More to the point, she was right, because someone--Marietta--did rat them out to Umbridge.

One thing does have me baffled. Dean Thomas obviously told Seamus about the meetings, because he brought Seamus to the meeting that was interrupted. I wonder if he got permission from Harry or Hermione to tell Seamus and bring him along, since no SNEAK spots seem to have appeared on Dean's face.

I do not even see Hermione's behavior to Rita as vengeful or vindictive, given Rita's gross invasion of everyone's privacy, the web of lies and innuendo she has spread, and her illegal use of magic. Hermione is simply exerting well-applied pressure on Rita to correct all of the problems she has created with her lies and misinformation--or be outted as an unregistered animagus. I'd say that is fair. Once she has rectified her mistakes, I suppose she will go back to business as usual ... lying and deceiving.

I do expect Rita to seek revenge against Hermione. Hermione knows too much, and any time Rita decides to play fast and loose with the truth, she knows Hermione can step in and blow the whistle. That will seriously hamper her ability to get stories the way she has been used to getting them. I figure Rita will find some dirt on Hermione and use it (or threaten to do so). She will probably do an exclusive interview with Marietta for starters. I figure she will also try to employ some sort of curse to keep Hermione off her back for good. It will be interesting to see how the grudge between these two plays out in book 6.

Solitaire



Catherine - Oct 17, 2004 11:50 am (#852 of 2486)
..that otter do it for an answer.

Indeed, Chemyst, indeed!



Loopy Lupin - Oct 17, 2004 8:34 pm (#853 of 2486)
If I recall correctly, she didn't even tell them that if they signed the paper, they would have to keep D.A. secret. -- Prefect Marcus

That goes back 60 posts, and of course, Catherine gave the quote in which Hermione stated that signing was a promise not to tell in the very next post. Marcus, you knew better. Very Happy



librarian314 - Oct 18, 2004 3:59 pm (#854 of 2486)
Hermione has a strong sense of right and wrong and very much acts on it. She has also been learning that the Wizarding World is a far different place when it comes to legal issues than the Muggle world from whence she came.

From what I’ve seen in the books, wizards seem to view laws/rules as something to bend, break, ignore, or enforce as each wizard individually sees fit. Why else do we know of more unregistered animagi than registered ones? (There have been 7 registered animagi thus far in the 20th century, McGonagall is the only one we know the name of for certain. We know the names and forms of 4 unregistered ones: Sirius-dog; James-stag; Peter-rat; and Rita-beetle.) Not to mention Arthur's enchanted Anglia, exploding toilets, the Umbrage arranged dementor attack, Sirius' lack of a proper trial, the Daily Prophet regularly printing what we'd call slander and libel, underage gambling at the World Cup (Fred and George don’t turn 17 until OotP.) and Harry almost getting expelled from Hogwarts from protecting himself and his cousin from soul-sucking fiends. And these are the examples of what I remember off the top of my head. There are lots more; I could go on and on.

It seems to me that our Muggle rules of right and wrong and proper legal recourse just don’t apply in the Wizarding World. Hermione is learning this and doing a pretty good job of fitting in. She responded to Rita's and Marietta's actions the way a witch would, not the way a Muggle would.

Remember the adage, "When in Rome…"



*michelle the librarian**



Prefect Marcus - Oct 18, 2004 4:02 pm (#855 of 2486)
Yes, Loopy, I know better than to state as a fact something that I have not had the chance to check on. That is why I qualified that statement. Catherine obliged by quoting the full passage.

Thanks, Catherine! *waves and blows a kiss in Catherine's direction*



Paulus Maximus - Oct 18, 2004 4:02 pm (#856 of 2486)
"the Daily Prophet regularly printing what we'd call slander and libel"

Sorry to nitpick, but the Daily Prophet only printed libel. Slander is spoken; libel is written or printed.



Catherine - Oct 18, 2004 4:07 pm (#857 of 2486)
Catherine obliged by quoting the full passage. --Marcus

No problem. **pops an Altoid, waves, and blows kisses right back at Loopy and Marcus**

I love quotes, and being correct.



Prefect Marcus - Oct 18, 2004 4:13 pm (#858 of 2486)
Edited by Oct 18, 2004 4:13 pm
Catherine - I love quotes, and being correct.

*cough*Pansy*cough*



Catherine - Oct 18, 2004 4:20 pm (#859 of 2486)
**asks sweetly**

Would you like a cough drop, Marcus?



librarian314 - Oct 18, 2004 4:39 pm (#860 of 2486)
Thanks Paulus for the correction! It's why I'm a librarian and not a lawyer! :-)



*michelle the librarian**



The giant squid - Oct 19, 2004 1:25 am (#861 of 2486)

Slander is spoken; libel is written


By far one of the best lines in Spider-Man, but I digress...

--Mike



Pat Franz - Oct 19, 2004 8:23 am (#862 of 2486)
I have to agree with the sentiment that Hermione has a vindictive streak in her. This is neither a critique on her character nor an endorsement of being vindictive just a part of her personality. And I think the vindictive tendency she has shown comes from her having an obsessive personality.

Hermione has the tendency to become obessed by her many crusades. She demonstrates a singlemindedness in achieving her goals that a zealot might envy. This singlemindedness has certainly produced positive results (her studies enable her to excel in school, her determination to take all the courses she wanted while detrimental to her state of mind ultimately enabled her to have the time turner) but the obsession also highlights how tunnel visioned her thinking can be. She seems to want to free the house elves whether they want it or not. In her narrow vision of the situation she has ,as stated many time before, overlooked that the majority of these elves are quite happy as they are.

This may seem a redundant point but how many dictators & tyrants have used the reason that they know what is best for a group of people and will see them live that way even if the group does not wish too. Now, Hermione is by no means a tyrant, but if not kept in check her obsession to do what is right without always seeing the larger/wider picture could lead to seriously bad consequences. Just as Harry's inability to sublimate his emotions in order the think clearly & logically led to the death of his God father.



Pat Franz - Oct 19, 2004 8:37 am (#863 of 2486)
Looking at Hermione's treatment of those she deemed wrong doers (love that corny phrase) one may seem how her obsessive personality could lead her to act/be a vindictive person. Rita & Marietta were by no means acting as honorable people when the felt Hermione's reactions to their bad behavior but one could argue that Hermione went overboard. Marietta is a young girl who was cajoled by her friend to do something she didn't want to (and I'm sure that never happened to anyone on this board) when she signed the sheet. She also had parents who worked for the ministry and for a young person betraying your parents is one thing but when your actions, if found out, could seriously hurt their CAREERS then the pressure is much larger. Yes she broke a promise, but our young trio haven't always kept their promises. Lastly she had no idea of the repercussions of her actions. She was not warned the betraying them would carry such a harsh punishment.

And while as Solitaire said that she did not do this in response to something as a vindictive person was, I would argue that the curse was extremely vindictive in that she knew it would happen to whoever did tell as vengeance FOR telling. Also it did not take into account how any of the members may have been forced to tell about the club. Imagine getting threatened with expulsion if you don't tell or worse, then when you break from the pressure of an authority figure yelling and cajoling your 12-17 year old self you get a nasty case of purple acne as well. Hermoine's inability to see legitimate possibilities in which ANY of the DA may have had to divulge the secret to someone they wished not know highlights the fact that despite her incredible intellect & open mindedness that when it come to something she deems wrong her obsession to end/prevent the wrong doing clouds her thinking.

I am not trying to say Hermione is a bad person, just trying to shed light on why some people may think she has a vindictive streak. JKR has shown many times both the good and bad of many attributes and it is just my belief that in Hermione she is showing has tunnel vision in pursuit of goals can lead to both great accomplishments & unintended negative consequences.

Later, Pat



Catherine - Oct 19, 2004 9:38 am (#864 of 2486)
Yes she broke a promise, but our young trio haven't always kept their promises. --Pat Franz

I don't remember the Trio failing to keep promises. I don't think they had time to go back into the forest to see Grawp once Hagrid was ousted from Hogwarts, but I can't think of another instance in which they purposely did not keep a promise.



Loopy Lupin - Oct 19, 2004 9:45 am (#865 of 2486)
I have to throw in with Catherine here. What promises have our young trio failed to keep? There was not exactly time to teach Grawp English. I suppose one could say that Harry "promised" to keep up with Occlumency. One may also say that he was "ordered" to do so. But, either way, his teacher pretty much put those lessons to a halt. Those types of rather vague and arguable situations aside, I cannot think of a single situation when any of the Trio affirmatively promised to do or not to do something and then knowingly or purposefully broke that promise.



Madame Pomfrey - Oct 19, 2004 6:53 pm (#866 of 2486)
I dont see Hermione as being vindictive.There has been many times when others(Malfoy & Snape for instance)have bought tears to her eyes for their cruelty and she just turns the other cheek.She and Ron fight and makeup all the time without any grudge holding.I see her as very passionate about the people and things she loves willing to give her all to her many causes.I Think what she did to Rita was more for Harry and Dumbledore than herself.Remember initially she thought the "scarlet woman" article was funny because she knew it wasn't true . I think that what Skeeter did to Hagrid and the bubotuber puss was just the last straw.As for Marrietta.She got what she deserved.The D.A meetings wasn't childsplay.These kids were having to teach themelves how to fight against full grown dark wizards knowing they could end up like poor Cedric if they couldn't defend themselves.I for one think that Mariettas pimples will be resolved soon.I dont see Hermione as non forgiving she was just teaching her a lesson about loyalty.I guess you all can tell I really love Hermione.



Mrs Brisbee - Oct 19, 2004 7:23 pm (#867 of 2486)
I think "vindictive" might be too strong a word--it's connotations are very negative. Hermione can be vengeful, but I don't see her act out of spite. She does like to take matters into her own hands. Actually, she reminds me a lot of Dumbledore, hatching her own secret plans to right the wrongs of the universe.



Solitaire - Oct 19, 2004 8:33 pm (#868 of 2486)
I'm with those who agree that Hermione keeps her promises. She is the one who helped Hagrid with his defense of Buckbeak when Harry and Ron were feuding with her over the Firebolt. She is the one who tried to help Hagrid with his lessons, so that Umbridge wouldn't sack him.

As for her being obsessed and vindictive, I look at it a bit differently. Where Rita was concerned, even those who disagreed with what she said just wrung their hands and were indignant. No one spoke out or did anything. Hermione, on the other hand, used her logic skills and began to piece together all of the clues in considering just how Rita could be getting all of her information from Hogwarts when she had been banned from Hogwarts.

Once she figured it out, what could she do? The Wizarding community apparently doesn't "do" lawsuits. They seem to operate on a more old-fashioned, "eye-for-an-eye" basis. Hermione has apparently learned how the system works and is putting into operation.

As far as Rita's "punishment" is concerned, I think a paraphrase of Dumbledore's remark to Lockhart says it best: Dear me. Impaled upon your own sword, Miss Skeeter. If Rita had not been misusing her animagus ability to spy on people, she would not have been nailed.

For those who think the punishment was too harsh, stop and think. Rita had gained information via illegal and unethical means, and she was using it to destroy people's lives and reputations and line her own purse. Hermione was executing justice. She was forcing Rita to rectify all of the wrong impressions she'd created--without pay. It sounds fair to me. Then again, perhaps people who have been actual victims of things like fraud, libel, or character assassination feel differently than those who are merely considering the issue in a theoretical light.

Solitaire



Pine Fresh - Oct 20, 2004 4:43 am (#869 of 2486)
Hermione's good at sussing out weak spots--of enemies AND friends--and using them to her advantage. I was thinking of that Fainting Fancies scene in OotP: Fred and George are completely incorrigible, but when Hermione threatens to tell their mom, they stop testing the Snackboxes on other students. (Of course the twins see this threat as "below the belt.")

IMHP, I'm glad she's got a vindictive streak, isn't afraid to tap into it, and doesn't always run to the authorities/adults (who are a real bunch of yahoos, with few exceptions) to solve problems . . . makes for a much more interesting story.



Solitaire - Oct 20, 2004 6:56 am (#870 of 2486)
Perhaps it is just the way the term vindictive is being used here that is at issue. I could see it being used if only Hermione's pride had been hurt or if she had retaliated for some "kid stuff" kind of offenses; but this was hardly the case.

In the situation with Marietta, what Marietta believed about Umbridge was not the point, really. She knew the rest of the kids considered Umbridge the enemy, and yet she betrayed them anyway. Who was she to determine whether or not the other kids were wrong? She agreed to keep the secret. If she didn't like the meetings, fine. Stop going. But she should not attempt to decide what was right for the others. They all made their own choices. When she chose to rat, she must have known there would be some consequences from the group. I guess she just got a little more than the "cold shoulder" she was probably bargaining for.

As far as Rita goes, I don't think Hermione was all that worried about herself. She saw what Rita's lies were doing to Harry and Dumbledore. If it had been just the two of them who were hurt, she might have "bit her tongue," so to speak. But when Rita tore into Hagrid--giving Umbridge even more ammunition to sack him--I think Hermione just figured enough was enough and decided someone had to do something. Sometimes people reach a point where they can no longer sit idly by while others are being destroyed by one person's lies, when they know they have a way to stop it all. I say bully for Hermione!

Solitaire



Mrs Brisbee - Oct 20, 2004 1:09 pm (#871 of 2486)
"Vindictive" can mean to take vengeful action out of spite, which is why I don't think the word quite fits Hermione. She does like to act as Nemesis, dishing out retributive justice, and she takes great satisfaction in a job well done. At least this is the case with Rita, whom I don't have much sympathy for. I don't think Hermione went too far overboard in her punishment of Rita. Only a one year ban on writing is tame, considering all the unnecessary trouble and damage she caused.

Marietta's spots weren't the product of spite--much. The parchment was jinxed to activate whenever anyone who signed it told about the DA, and the jinx actually came in handy because it shut Marietta up before she could finish telling Umbridge about the DA. Her continued spottiness would deter anyone else from setting Umbridge straight about what was really going on, I suppose. It wasn't until Voldemort revealed himself at the MoM that her continued spottiness moved from being necessary to possibly vindictive, but not much time passed between then and the end of term, and it's also very easy to see how Hermione and the rest of the DA are angry enough not to put Marietta at the top of their fixit list. I think we'll have to wait until next book to see if Hermione will be truly vindictive here. She hadn't removed Marietta's spots yet at the end of OotP, but neither did she gloat about it when she saw Marietta on the train. She seemed to have other things on her mind she considered more important, like Harry's wellbeing and the coming war.



Muggle Doctor - Oct 20, 2004 3:38 pm (#872 of 2486)
The jinx didn't shut Marietta up - nervousness did to start, then Kingsley Shacklebolt struck. Marietta certainly told Umbridge - that's why they got busted and Dumbledore had to leave - but she didn't have time to finish telling Fudge and the aurors.

The rules of engagement in the Wizarding World are much different from those in ours - we must not use our take on how conflict 'should' be handled in order to judge Rowling's characters. Rita's behaviour was illegal, immoral and unethical, and Hermione brought her to heel (any attempt at a formal trial or complaint would have been laughed at, because Hermione's one of Harry's best friends, and Harry is thought to be off his tree).

As for Marietta, she learned that there are consequences to actions, and that her part in the DA's betrayal could not be kept secret - what do you all want, for her to be able to skulk off and blab to Umbridge, and nobody to know she did it? The end result of THAT would have been the DA members turning on (or at least suspecting) each other, trying to point the finger at the one responsible. Hardly what you need when you're seeking unity in the face of danger! At least, thanks to Hermione's actions, they KNEW. Hermione HAD to make the evidence of betrayal very, VERY visible, and I think this is why.



Solitaire - Oct 20, 2004 5:39 pm (#873 of 2486)
Bravo, Muggle Doctor! I think you have stated it well!



Madame Librarian - Oct 20, 2004 6:37 pm (#874 of 2486)
I realize I'm jumping into this discussion well after most the points have been made (and this may not be original), but I think the word vindictive is a bit strong, and has a slightly warlike edge to it that doesn't quite fit what Hermione did with Rita.

As I see it, in order to get Harry's name cleared and for people to believe the fact that what he was saying about Voldemort being back, she had two options: reveal Rita's illegal animagus status to the authorities and let them do what every they do to those who are unregistered, or give Rita a chance to avoid that little problem.

Given the speed with which Rita takes Hermione's "offer," I'd say she preferred Miss Granger's version of justice rather than the MoM's. Is this blackmail? Yeah, sort of. Is it actually a way for Rita to avoid a draconian punishment that even we would think unfair? Yes, I believe so. But vindictive? No, not to me. Vindicitve would imply an act that punishes, but has no redeeming purpose. That's not the case here. Hermione does not do this for her own satisfaction; she's got an important reason to take this tack with Rita.

Ciao. Barb



Mrs Brisbee - Oct 20, 2004 7:02 pm (#875 of 2486)
Muggle Doctor said: "The jinx didn't shut Marietta up - nervousness did to start, then Kingsley Shacklebolt struck. Marietta certainly told Umbridge - that's why they got busted and Dumbledore had to leave - but she didn't have time to finish telling Fudge and the aurors."

Sorry if my post confused you. What I meant was that the jinx activating frightened her into shutting up before she could reveal the details of the meeting to Umbridge, which ended up being a useful side effect of the jinx.



Solitaire - Oct 20, 2004 7:14 pm (#876 of 2486)
Madame Librarian: Vindictive would imply an act that punishes, but has no redeeming purpose. That's not the case here. Hermione does not do this for her own satisfaction; she's got an important reason to take this tack with Rita

Bravo, Barb! You and Muggle Doctor have stated more clearly what I have been trying to say.



librarian314 - Oct 21, 2004 11:27 am (#877 of 2486)
Hey all!

I'm not certain if it's been mentioned, but Hermione couldn't remove the jinx from Marietta because she was recovering from her injuries at the battle at the DoM. She was injured badly enough that Neville checked her pulse to make certain she was still alive (p. 793, OotP, Am. ppbk.) It also hurt her badly enough that she had to take 10 different types of potion everyday (p.847). She and Ron stay in the infirmary until three days before end of term (p.856). The way it's said in the book makes me think that we're supposed to think they've been there a while (as long as a week maybe). Though a quick check of the Lexicon's time line shows that we really don't have a good idea of how long they were there.

I think that Hermione was too ill to take the jinx off. I also think it may well fade of it's own accord as other jinxes like Impedimenta does (p. 647).



*michelle the librarian**



Muggle Doctor - Oct 21, 2004 3:27 pm (#878 of 2486)
If Madam Pomfrey can reverse the unfortunate effects of the polyjuice potion (which seem to be more long-lasting when you cross species...) and look after Hermione after getting that spell through the chest (nowhere is it said that Hermione spent ANY time in St Mungo's), I think wiping Marietta's pimples would be an easy task.

Maybe Marietta continues to wear them as a sort of 'look what Hermione did to me' pity-seeking gesture?



chocfrogger1 - Oct 22, 2004 8:25 am (#879 of 2486)
Hermoine could have done something much worse to Marietta than giving her pimples. She is the "cleverest witch of her age", and has always shown herself as having very advanced skills. She uses her real power, her keen and informed mind, to plan her actions. I'm sure that pimples were a punishment Hermoine felt was age-appropriate for their group, equally distressing to boys or girls. Her wisdom exceeds her age. She knew how to make the maximum impact with the least amount of real physical harm. A kind of tough love. Same with Rita Skeeter. Hermoine could have outed her to the MM, sending her to azkaban. Instead, Hermoine cuts off her power as well as income, but only for 1 year. A measured response, with big impact but little lasting harm.



veraco - Oct 22, 2004 9:27 am (#880 of 2486)
Well maybe the staff at Hogwarts was "unable" to remove the curse from Marietta as they where "unable" to control the twins fireworks, and with Hermione in the hospital wing they had an excuse for not to try and "make things worse" for Marietta.

I rather like this idea, it's a little punishment for a kid who didn't measure her actions and their consequences, and after all, the pimples will surely banish with time or when Marietta feels REALLY sorry for what she did, at least that's what I think.

I really like Hermione, and this is just one of many thinks she has done to make me like her even more.



total hatred - Oct 22, 2004 3:58 pm (#881 of 2486)
I agree. With Toadsley around, they are "unable to control the situation" so Headmistress must do what she has to do, she must take care of the mess. With all these decrees, the staff are unable to decide what they have to do so they let the Headmistress do the clean up



Solitaire - Oct 22, 2004 10:18 pm (#882 of 2486)
With all these decrees, the staff are unable to decide what they have to do so they let the Headmistress do the clean up

LOL With regard to the afternoon of fireworks, even sweet little Professor Flitwick tweaked her nose on that one: "I could have got rid of the sparklers myself, of course, but I wasn't sure whether I had the authority ..." Beaming, he closed his classroom door in her snarling face.

And didn't he get rid of the twins' swamp in about 5 seconds, following Umbridge's departure? LOL Go, Professor Flitwick!

Solitaire



Loopy Lupin - Oct 23, 2004 6:58 am (#883 of 2486)
Hermoine could have done something much worse to Marietta than giving her pimples. She is the "cleverest witch of her age", and has always shown herself as having very advanced skills.-- chocfroggerl

The fact that Hermione could have transfigured Marietta into a heaping pile of squid tentacles but did not do so has no bearing on whether or not the actions she did take were appropriate. And, so what if Hermione thought that pimples were an "age-appropriate" punishment? I believe the point people have been making is that it isn't down to her to decide punishments in the first place. Further, I would, frankly, lose tons of respect for the Hogwarts staff if the real reason Marietta continued to be disfigured after school ended was because the staff pretended to be "unable" to cure her.



TomProffitt - Oct 23, 2004 7:05 am (#884 of 2486)
"Further, I would, frankly, lose tons of respect for the Hogwarts staff if the real reason Marietta continued to be disfigured after school ended was because the staff pretended to be "unable" to cure her." --- Loopy Lupin

I agree Loopy, although I have come to believe that Jo is a little less than "politically correct" when it comes to punishment and comeuppance. She likes for characters to get "what they deserve" when she has the opportunity in her plotline. This adds to the humor of her stories, while at the same time taking somewhat from the realism she provides to a most unreal setting.



Loopy Lupin - Oct 23, 2004 7:19 am (#885 of 2486)
Good point. Realism is a tough nut to bust when you've got kids running around with wands casting spells and so forth. In the end though, it is still and English boarding school filled with many archetypal characters none of whom, I think, would condone leaving Marietta in such a state. I wonder to what you're referring when you say JKR is less than "pc" when it comes to comeuppances? If you mean Umbridge being chased out of the school while being hit with a sack of chalk and a walking stick, I didn't mind that too much.



TomProffitt - Oct 23, 2004 7:26 am (#886 of 2486)
"If you mean Umbridge being chased out of the school while being hit with a sack of chalk and a walking stick, I didn't mind that too much." --- Loopy Lupin

Yes, it's that kind of thing. Or Dudley's tail. Or Draco become a jellied slug on the train.

I don't mind them either, but I can image the "PC" elements of society going zonkers over them.

I'm not so politically correct that I lose sight of reality myself, but I've known more than a few who have.



Solitaire - Oct 23, 2004 10:04 am (#887 of 2486)
"If you mean Umbridge being chased out of the school while being hit with a sack of chalk and a walking stick, I didn't mind that too much."

Well, as a matter of fact, I enjoyed it! But I can't help wondering ... why is it NOT okay for Hermione to impose a non-life-threatening consequence that will come into effect on any members who rat out a group they agreed to keep secret--in a signed contract--yet it IS okay for a Poltergeist to decide a punishment for Umbridge?

As for it not being up to Hermione to "decide" an appropriate punishment, who should do it? It is a secret group, so presumably no staff person is supposed to know about it. If the situation were left up to Umbridge, the appropriate consequence for Marietta's treason would likely be nothing for her (for turning "state's evidence") and expulsion for everyone else, assuming she followed Decree 24 to the letter.

In other words, how can the staff possibly impose a fair consequence for the betrayal of something about which they are not supposed to know anything? Seems a hopeless business to me!

What Marietta essentially did was to betray "the Hogwarts resistance"--because, in essence, that is what the DA were. They were resisting Umbridge's refusal to properly train them in the defense against the dark arts by training themselves. Can someone who knows tell me what members of the French Resistance would have done to a fellow member who betrayed them to the occupying forces? Would the traitor have been punished in any way? I'm not that "up" on my WWII history. And before you tell me there is a difference in degree of offense, I already know that. But betrayal is betrayal, and this one could have had serious consequences for the DA members.

Solitaire



TomProffitt - Oct 23, 2004 12:21 pm (#888 of 2486)
"Can someone who knows tell me what members of the French Resistance would have done to a fellow member who betrayed them to the occupying forces?" --- Solitaire

I can't tell you from direct sources, Solitaire, but I suspect most resistance cells would have put a cap in them. The fate of the betrayed would have been death, it is reasonable to conclude that death was the sentence for those who turned them in (assuming there were survivors available to carry it out).

I'm less referring to Umbridge and Marietta in my "PC" statement than I am referring to other instances of "corporal" punishment. I think Dudley's tail, the bouncing ferret, and disappearing Montague (or was it Warrington) are better instances of what I mean.



Kelly Kapaoski - Oct 23, 2004 1:03 pm (#889 of 2486)
I noticed that Hermione didn't trust anyone except for Harry and Ron enough to inform them about the Jinx on the Parchment. She could have informed the group what would happen to them after they signed the paper what would happen if they told Umbridge about the group.



Weeny Owl - Oct 23, 2004 2:55 pm (#890 of 2486)
She could have informed the group what would happen to them after they signed the paper what would happen if they told Umbridge about the group.

Yes, she could have, and maybe she should have, but the fact still remains that everyone was told that by signing the paper they were agreeing not to tell Umbridge. They could have asked what would happen if they had let it leak out.

There have been a lot of rules in places I've worked that were unspoken and unwritten, yet still had consequences. Every single rule that could get someone in trouble couldn't have been spelled out or the employee handbook would have been more along the lines of a twenty-volume encyclopedia.

Marietta could also have talked to Hermione about her doubts about being in the group, about her mother working for the Ministry, and then mentioned going to Umbridge. Hermione would have told her that there were consequences.

Hermione might not have handled the situation perfectly, but she was a fifteen-year-old workiing to help people get the education they were denied, and she had to work behind the scenes doing it. I doubt if she thought of all possible repercussions, and even if an adult had started the group, something else might have gone wrong.

Hermione is a very caring person who still has a long way to go before she's grown up, but her heart is in the right place.



fortuna major - Oct 23, 2004 4:28 pm (#891 of 2486)
I don't think that anyone is denying that Hermione means well, or that she's not one of the good guys. And maybe "vindictive" isn't the right word. All we are insisting is that she has a new "streak" of something coming out in her personality. Righteous anger that she doesn't handle perfectly, a thirst for justice that she is willing to take on herself, something. I am simply fighting for recognition of that because I think that it is an accurate portrayal of an adolescent dealing with difficult issues, it makes her a more believable and dynamic character, and it illustrates Jo's theme that "good" and "bad" aren't absolute terms and that gray area does exist. Harry's bouts of anger prove that he is human and isn't perfect. So does this new "streak" in Hermione's personality.



TomProffitt - Oct 23, 2004 4:39 pm (#892 of 2486)
I am in agreement with fortuna major.

I used the word "vindictive" because it was the one that popped into my mind when I was listening to GoF. Perhaps we are over reacting to the choice of the word.

Hermione's reactions to Rita, and her planning for the DA roster are both enviable and less than perfect. They are part of what makes her character real. Were I 15 again and in Hermione's position I doubt I could have done as well.

Hermione possesses the ability to be mean and ruthless when necessary. It is an important trait for fighters and leaders. She seems able to control the ability to a much greater degree than some of the staff, Hagrid on one end of the spectrum (too little until he finally blows up), and Snape on the other(too much until he realizes he better break contact).



Solitaire - Oct 23, 2004 4:57 pm (#893 of 2486)
I think, Tom, that some of us just do not feel Hermione was being either mean or ruthless. While I do not feel Marietta's spots should remain indefinitely, I believe that the punishment fit the crime. The parchment was impartial; it would have zapped anyone who violated the pact.

If Rita's breach of ethics and her lying ways had been (eventually) uncovered and exposed by people in the business, it might have meant a complete end of her career, as well as some time in Azkaban. She got off light with Hermione; we know this because she did not hesitate to accept "the deal."

In the end, I suppose this issue is probably something about which we we will have to agree to disagree.

Solitaire



TomProffitt - Oct 23, 2004 5:09 pm (#894 of 2486)
"I think, Tom, that some of us just do not feel Hermione was being either mean or ruthless." --- Solitaire

We can call it "stern impartial justice," if you like, but I think we are discussing the same trait. It is a quality that requires a certain amount of discretion to use appropriately. I question the appropriateness of some aspects of Hermione's use of this trait, but in general I don't think her errors here to be great ones. It is her possession of the trait which I find important to her character, not how it was used in specific instances.



KWeldon - Oct 23, 2004 8:08 pm (#895 of 2486)
Perhaps this has been mentioned, but if I could just point out one thing...

I've always thought that Hermione's actions against Marietta, or particularly lack thereof after the spots wouldn't go away, were unfairly harsh.

I was a kid like Marietta as a teenager. I would go along with whatever my friends wanted, even if I was disobeying a school rule or a parent, but in the end I would always turn myself in or reverse the action, if I could, because I feared disappointing my parents and getting into even more serious trouble.

Marietta was concerned for her mother's job, and although she put the DA in jeopardy by snitching, in many ways she suffered severely for what she considered "doing the right thing." Now, I know that you will argue that "doing the right thing" in this case was to protect the DA at all costs considering needing protection for the upcoming war, but remember that Marietta did not have the persective we do. We believe everything Harry says because we know what happened. Marietta did not. Hermione knew that, and so her actions were too severe. Punish people publicly if you will for snitching, but be grown-up enough to stop the punishment when it's due. Enough is enough.

Call me a wimp, or whatever, but I would have probably done just what Marietta did and hated Hermione for not fixing the jinx, which I'm sure she was perfectly capable of doing. Even after the term was over she has to suffer? Give me a break.



Solitaire - Oct 23, 2004 8:12 pm (#896 of 2486)
Hermione did not "take action" against Marietta for squealing. She jinxed the parchment so that ANYONE who squealed would suffer consequences. And if Marietta was so concerned for her mother's job, why did she join in the first place and continue for--I believe Umbridge says six months? If she had grown concerned for her mother's job, why not just quietly drop out? She didn't have to rat out the group.



MickeyCee3948 - Oct 23, 2004 8:39 pm (#897 of 2486)
OK-KWeldon your a wimp! What can I say. Yes Marietta did what she thought was right. She made a choice and that choice could have had drastic results on ALL of the other members of the DA. If she wanted to turn herself in fine, go ahead and do it but leave the others out of her confession. When you make your bed you have to sleep in it. She made her choice, it was wrong and she paid a price.

Are you going to tell us that as a teenager you never ended up losing any of these FRIENDS you told on and never had to pay a price for your actions. Hermione did not specifically punish Marietta, anyone who would have told the toad would have suffered the same fate. And as far as Hermoine not removing the pimples, remember that she did suffer injuries in the battle at the MOM and spent some time in the hospital ward.

Hermoine's actions, Marietta's actions and Umbridge's actions have been discussed for the last week and I believe that subject has just about been exhausted.

Sorry, if I sounding kinda critical, not meaning to be but Marietta and Umbridge got exactly what they deserved.

Mikie



Solitaire - Oct 23, 2004 9:10 pm (#898 of 2486)
I was over on the Encyclopedia of Spells, looking for something, and found Contract, Magical: This spell or spells makes a contract magically unbreakable. It referred to the fact that placing a name in the Goblet of Fire constituted a magical contract that could not be broken, even by Dumbledore.

Do we know what would have happened to Harry if he had violated the contract and refused to participate? It wasn't seen as an option, even though he did not even enter into the contract of his own volition.

Apparently, contracts are taken seriously in the WW and are not to be entered lightly. Marietta learned this lesson the hard way. Hermione had obviously done her homework.

Solitaire



total hatred - Oct 24, 2004 12:36 am (#899 of 2486)
I agree that Hermione is not vindictive. If she was that vindictive, the chances of a certain ship will plummet to zero. My opinion is that action is beyond Mione's control. It could happen to anybody when you break the pact. I don't think Mione needs to reverse the jinx because even she is brightest girl of her age, she is not strong enough to cast spells that has lasting effect on others. The reason why the jinx lasted so long is because Mione obviously put too much effort on creating the jinx, enough to make it last a long time.



Madame Librarian - Oct 24, 2004 5:59 am (#900 of 2486)
Hah! I just wish all those critics who think HP is "just a children's book" could read the discussion taking place here for the last few days.

JKR once again has created a magical world with real issues. She is driving her point home through the actions of all the characters that people are not totally all-good nor all-evil, they are not all-wise nor completely dim, always firmly confindent or frozen with indecision. We have a truly excellent representation that life is filled with decisions (choices), people are amazingly complex, wartime may make for strange, uncomfortable alliances, and decent folk may be driven to extreme reactions, a person's sympathy and normally measured sense of what's fair is likely to be stretched very thin.

Ciao. Barb

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KWeldon - Oct 24, 2004 8:54 am (#901 of 2486)
If she had grown concerned for her mother's job, why not just quietly drop out? She didn't have to rat out the group.

Yes, I agree that this was a viable option that Marietta did not take and should have, assuming it would have been permitted by the others. Given that she didn't, however, Hermione should have stopped the jinx. The book clearly states that she got out of the hospital wing 3 days before the end of term.

Are you going to tell us that as a teenager you never ended up losing any of these FRIENDS you told on and never had to pay a price for your actions. Hermione did not specifically punish Marietta, anyone who would have told the toad would have suffered the same fate.

Hermione and Marietta were not friends. I understand that Marietta was not singled out, but Hermione took it too far. If she is going to accept the responsibility of being judge and jury, then she needs to also be responsible for knowing when to stop the punishment. Lucky for her long teeth are easily reversible, huh!

And as far as Hermoine not removing the pimples, remember that she did suffer injuries in the battle at the MOM and spent some time in the hospital ward.

Again, she had at least three days. If you're going to argue that Hermione might not have seen Marietta in those three days, then I don't know what to say. Yes, it's formally possible, but given that they eat in the same hall three times a day makes that seem unlikely that at least ONE of the DA wouldn't have seen her spots and said something to Hermione about it.

Hermoine's actions, Marietta's actions and Umbridge's actions have been discussed for the last week and I believe that subject has just about been exhausted.

Sorry, if I sounding kinda critical, not meaning to be but Marietta and Umbridge got exactly what they deserved

Fine, then, case closed by Mikie. I'll have to agree to disagree with just about everyone on the thread. Smile



Steve Newton - Oct 24, 2004 9:29 am (#902 of 2486)
What makes people think that Marietta was concerned about her mother's job? I recall nothing in the books about this. Sounds like excuse making to me.



Chemyst - Oct 24, 2004 9:34 am (#903 of 2486)
Again, she had at least three days.

She may have had three days, but she did not have the parchment. Last time we saw that, DD had it. If it was the magic parchment that executed Hermione's jinx, then without it she may be unable to do a thing, even if she wants to. (This loosely lines up with the CS plot; when Harry destroyed the diary, that was the end of Tom. If the parchment has to be destroyed to remove the pimples, Umbridge really blew it big time.)



KWeldon - Oct 24, 2004 10:01 am (#904 of 2486)
Steve,

What makes people think that Marietta was concerned about her mother's job? I recall nothing in the books about this. Sounds like excuse making to me

It's canon, in fact. In Chapter 28 Cho tells Harry when she is explaining Marietta's actions: You know, her mum works for the Ministry, it's really difficult for her--"

KWeldon



Catherine - Oct 24, 2004 10:16 am (#905 of 2486)
I understand that Marietta was not singled out, but Hermione took it too far. If she is going to accept the responsibility of being judge and jury, then she needs to also be responsible for knowing when to stop the punishment. --KWeldon

Hermione was not the "judge," nor was she the "jury." We've seen instances in the books where a protective spell was placed around a magical object: the protections around the Sorcerer's Stone, and the Goblet come to mind. Injuries have in fact occurred. Is Dumbledore or the teachers then acting as "judge and jury" because someone violated rules or trust?

Snape had his leg mangled by Fluffy; Ron got hurt by the Chess set; Ron was almost strangled by Devil's Snare; Someone could have been burned or poisoned by drinking from the wrong bottle; Everyone who crossed the age line ended up with a long white beard. I'm concluding from this that it is, in the magical world, acceptable in important circumstances to place protective charms and wards.

I'm also taking Hermione seriously when she says about teaching Grawp that she and Harry promised. We know from Dumbledore that magical contracts are binding. Marietta is old enough to understand signing your name to a document is important. Blaming Hermione as "judge and jury" because Marietta broke faith is akin to a thief blaming the bank teller because the money he stole had a dye packet that exploded and marked him as the thief.

Hermione has always, like Harry, had a "streak" of something extraordinary in her. It is not ruthless, vindictive, or mean. It is the willingness to act, and to put oneself on the line for the greater good. She has, in my opinion, proven herself a worthy Gryffindor.

To be honest, I'm just not that fussed about Marietta's SNEAK pimples. I'm sure that JKR had a reason for Marietta to be hiding behind a balaclava at the end of OoP, and I'm not convinced that she did so in order to show anything bad about Hermione's character.



Czarina II - Oct 24, 2004 10:16 am (#906 of 2486)
I think how we all feel about the Hermione-Marietta-parchment issue really depends on how we ourselves were brought up and how we acted (or act) in high school. We all have different personalities and we were all probably in different places on the adolescent social ladder. Some of us probably put our family before friends, others vice versa. We see this situation differently. Just like the 'ship thread, it has become a rather sensitive issue.

Hermione doesn't always think before she acts. She is smart enough to figure her way out of a situation (usually), but that still doesn't change the fact that she doesn't always think the situation through beforehand. Thus, she can appear short-tempered (she is rather short-tempered, though very good at hiding it) and yes, vindicative. I don't think Hermione IS vindicative, or even a milder word of a similar nature. She is a teenage girl.



Steve Newton - Oct 24, 2004 10:26 am (#907 of 2486)
KWeldon,

"It's canon, in fact. In Chapter 28 Cho tells Harry when she is explaining Marietta's actions: You know, her mum works for the Ministry, it's really difficult for her--"

I know this line. I don't see how it applies to the situation under discussion. I recall no mention of concern for her mother's job at any point.



Steve Newton - Oct 24, 2004 10:29 am (#908 of 2486)
"Hermione doesn't always think before she acts."

That's not my impression. I see her as more overthinking.



Kelly Kapaoski - Oct 24, 2004 11:03 am (#909 of 2486)
I wonder if anyone from the Order of The Phoenix is following Hermione's Parents. Voldemort probably knows that Harry Potter hangs out with a muggle born student (from Draco Malfoy who probably told Lucius or Narcissa). If Voldemort Knows how to use a muggle Phone book then he might go after them to get at Harry.



Loopy Lupin - Oct 24, 2004 11:54 am (#910 of 2486)
I would think LV more likely to "Google" them myself.



Good Evans - Oct 24, 2004 12:12 pm (#911 of 2486)
Kelly I think you have a good point, I suspect that the Evans' were killed in order to rat out Lily and James during the first war, getting to Hermione, and thus to Harry by going after the Grangers I think is most plausible.



librarian314 - Oct 24, 2004 12:15 pm (#912 of 2486)
Not possible! Google was in beta mode in Sept. of 1998; the end of OotP takes place June 1996, when the Google guys were working on a prototype called BackRub.

He would have had to have used Yahoo! or something else. :-)



*michelle the librarian** card caring member of geeks anonymous ;-)



KWeldon - Oct 24, 2004 12:31 pm (#913 of 2486)
In Chapter 28 Cho tells Harry when she is explaining Marietta's actions: You know, her mum works for the Ministry, it's really difficult for her--"

I know this line. I don't see how it applies to the situation under discussion. I recall no mention of concern for her mother's job at any point.

Steve, You don't see how it applies to the situation? Good heavens, yes I suppose it is conjecture that there is some other reason concerning Marietta's snitching that Cho was referring to when she said that things are difficult for her because her mum works for the Ministry. However, I don't think it's that much of a leap to assume that she was referring to her mother's job being in jeopardy if her daughter was discovered working for a subversive group against the Ministry (their interpretations of the group, that is).

I'm sure that JKR had a reason for Marietta to be hiding behind a balaclava at the end of OoP, and I'm not convinced that she did so in order to show anything bad about Hermione's character.

Catherine,

I'm not sure I understand fully what you are saying. Do you mean that she may have been wearing the balaclava for another reason? It seems highly unlikely this is so, particularly when JKR states in Ch. 28 that Madame Pomfrey herself couldn't alleviate the pimples at all. Maybe JKR was trying to show off how clever a witch Hermione is, yet again.

I'd also like to remind everyone that Cho, a smart Ravenclaw no less, had no idea that the parchment was jinxed. That was really a horrible trick of Hermione Granger's," said Cho fiercely. "She should have told us that she'd jinxed that list-

They knew they were signing a list agreeing not to tell anyone including Umbridge, but at least some of them, being teenagers, had no idea what consequences there would be if they snitched.



Solitaire - Oct 24, 2004 2:02 pm (#914 of 2486)
Czarina II: Hermione doesn't always think before she acts.

I am afraid I must agree with Steve on this one. Jinxing the parchment before it was signed showed she had given a great deal of thought beforehand, anticipating that someone might, perhaps under pressure, decide to do an about-face.

KWeldon, Fudge seemed clueless about Marietta's identity as Mrs. Edgecombe's daughter until Umbridge clued him in. If the Ministry is like other government offices I've experienced, they are big enough that it is possible Fudge may not have known (note I said may not have known) that a Madame Edgecombe existed, let alone worked in the Ministry! Until I see evidence that her job had been threatened, I think it is reaching to assume that. Besides, how could her mother have known that such a group even existed if no one had told yet?

Solitaire



fortuna major - Oct 24, 2004 2:09 pm (#915 of 2486)
I haven't made it through all of the threads, still being a relative newbie. Good Evans, I know that the conjecture that the Evans's were killed by Voldie in VWI has shown up in other threads. Can anybody point me in their direction? If not we should move it to one of those other threads to discuss how, in fact, all of the rest of Harry's family besides the Dursleys happened to be dead. Let me know where it ends up and I'll join in.



KWeldon - Oct 24, 2004 2:09 pm (#916 of 2486)
Marietta may have been acting pre-emptively out of her own assumption that her mother's job would be in jeopardy if Marietta's involvement with the DA was uncovered. She got nervous and balked. She didn't have to be told that her mother's job was in jeopardy, she just had to have a fear of it.



Solitaire - Oct 24, 2004 2:16 pm (#917 of 2486)
I think that was what Hermione was doing--trying to act pre-emptively in the only way she could. She knew that if the group were discovered, they would probably all face expulsion. She probably also believed that the only way they would be discovered was through betrayal; so she took steps to try and prevent disclosure. It worked, too. Before Marietta could give too many specifics to Umbridge, the jinx activated and stopped her.



KWeldon - Oct 24, 2004 2:19 pm (#918 of 2486)
Solitaire,

No doubt. My problem is that apparently it wasn't clear what they were signing and that she should have stopped it when all was said and done.

These are really ridiculously minor points to the whole story, aren't they! Wink

Gosh, JKR, please give us HP6 so we can quit discussing such fluff and put us out of our misery!!

KWeldon



Solitaire - Oct 24, 2004 2:30 pm (#919 of 2486)
(OotP, Chapter 16, page 346, US ed.) "I-I think everybody should write their name down, just so we know who was here. But I also think," she took a deep breath, "that we all ought to agree not to shout about what we're doing. So if you sign, you're agreeing not to tell Umbridge--or anybody else--what we're up to."

This sounds like a contract, to me.



Madame Pomfrey - Oct 24, 2004 3:12 pm (#920 of 2486)
Bravo Catherine.Bravo Solitaire.Bravo Steve.



KWeldon - Oct 24, 2004 4:38 pm (#921 of 2486)
Sure, you as an adult understands it is a contract, but would you have as a fifteen year old? Cho certainly didn't, and she's a sixteen year old, for what it's worth.



Catherine - Oct 24, 2004 5:00 pm (#922 of 2486)
Cho certainly didn't, and she's a sixteen year old, for what it's worth. KWeldon

For what it's worth, Cho was angry about several things when she complained about a "cheap trick."

It's not uncommon for people to blame others for their own misfortunes, or to misplace anger upon the wrong party.

Harry pointed out to Cho that her friend Marietta sold them all out, including Cho. Cho might have an easier time blaming Hermione for the jinx then she does Marietta for the snitching.

I sympathize with Cho in this situation. It's not easy to realize that your best friend is someone who will go to the Toad and sell you out.



KWeldon - Oct 24, 2004 5:08 pm (#923 of 2486)
True, Catherine, although I wouldn't expect Cho to lie about not knowing it was jinxed. I have always sympathized with Cho in this instance, too, but probably for a different reason. She was between a rock and a hard place, given that she knew Marietta was upset about likely disappointing her mom and yet her boyfriend was furious about it. She would have lost one or the other, it seems.



Solitaire - Oct 24, 2004 7:51 pm (#924 of 2486)
I never saw Cho as a serious candidate for Harry, because she was so obviously jealous of Hermione. Face the facts ... Any girl who can't accept and deal with the special relationship between Harry and Hermione is doomed as a partner, because Hermione is around for the long haul, either until the end of the VWar--and possibly after it--or until she is "taken out" by Voldemort or his forces. Her destiny seems to be inextricably bound together with Harry's and Ron's.

The woman who seeks Harry's heart is going to need a healthy self image, solid self-esteem, and nerves of steel--and she may even be required to join in the war games herself.

Solitaire



KWeldon - Oct 24, 2004 8:03 pm (#925 of 2486)
Solitaire,

Absolutely! And I know just the person...

KWeldon



Solitaire - Oct 24, 2004 8:21 pm (#926 of 2486)
Oh, please ... not Pansy! LOL If you are young, how about yourself? **wink**



Czarina II - Oct 24, 2004 9:40 pm (#927 of 2486)
Can we perhaps steer away from the jinxed parchment issue? This topic has clogged up the Hermione thread with enough posts for its own thread!

I said Hermione does not ALWAYS think before she acts; I did not say that she never does. Yes, jinxing the parchment was a very wise thing to do. However, she should have told the group what they were signing. A contract should be fully explained to all parties, or else it is an invalid contract. There was nothing on the parchment (no fine print! ;-)) about a jinx. She might have foreseen that people would be upset. If the circumstances had been different, SEVERAL students might have ended up with "sneak" written on their faces, all of whom would be quite angry with Hermione. Other members of the DA might be afraid of Hermione because she was not being entirely honest with them. Let's face it: as the "brightest witch in her year", she is admired, feared, and despised by her classmates. I would be willing to bet that half of Ravenclaw House dislikes her. I would probably dislike her if I were a Hogwarts student, though I think she is a fine character.

But Hermione does indeed fail to think before she acts many times. Moreover, she doesn't really think things through. In fact, she has the dual problem of either not thinking things through, or thinking them too thoroughly and overlooking something. She relies too often on her book-knowledge and assumes that she is always right, which is what I meant.



Solitaire - Oct 24, 2004 10:13 pm (#928 of 2486)
I do not believe Hermione fails to think things through before she acts. I don't even believe she overthinks, really. I DO, however, believe that she occasionally has blinders on when she does her thinking. Instead of putting herself in the position of whomever she is trying to help, she looks at things from her own perspective and decides how SHE would feel in similar straits.

Take, for example, the Firebolt business. She had the best intentions at heart--Harry's safety--and she had good reason to be concerned about it, given the situation with Sirius on the loose. Unfortunately, because Quidditch, brooms, and flying were not that important to her, she underestimated their importance to Harry when she acted. Consequently, she incurred the wrath of Ron and Harry for some time.

The House-elf business is another example of her wearing blinders. She is approaching their enslavement from how she--as Hermione Granger--would feel. She has read plenty, but she has not gone directly TO the elves to ask them some very important questions. It is too bad she has not asked them about the history of their enslavement and why they feel the way they do about receiving clothes. Had she done this, she might have made more progress by this point, because she would have a greater understanding of their frame of mind.

She certainly did lots of thinking and planning in her assistance of Harry in the GoF tournament. In fact, she did as much of the thinking and planning as he did.

She planned meticulously in making the Polyjuice potion ... until she made one grievous error with respect to her own self--choosing the wrong hair! But her error was not due to lack of planning, and the next time she brews Polyjuice potion, I bet she pulls the hair directly out of her victim's head--just to make sure.

Concerning the incident of going into the forest with Umbridge, I believe she did the best she could under the circumstances. She believed she had the best chance of getting free from Umbridge away from the castle and the IS.

And she certainly did think through the parchment incident. Knowing Hermione, I'm sure she considered various ways of handling it before she chose the jinx. I'm not going to belabor why I feel she did not do wrong, because I've already exhausted my feelings on that topic. I haven't changed my mind.

I'm wondering about one time she may not have thought properly and whether or not it will backfire on her. The baby-head DE she would not allow Harry to harm is a loose end, IMO. If he lives and is cured or "fixed" or whatever, he may come back and "fix" her. Other than that, for the most part, I'd have to say I disagree with the idea that Hermione doesn't think things through. My only quibble is with her frame of mind--or perspective--when she is doing the thinking.

Solitaire



Weeny Owl - Oct 25, 2004 1:18 am (#929 of 2486)
<i.Marietta may have been acting pre-emptively out of her own assumption that her mother's job would be in jeopardy if Marietta's involvement with the DA was uncovered. She got nervous and balked. She didn't have to be told that her mother's job was in jeopardy, she just had to have a fear of it.

It's possible that Umbridge put pressure on students who had parents working for the Ministry and who were not friends with Harry and company. I can see her dropping little threats here and there until the pressure became too much for Marietta to handle.

Having said that, while Hermione might either not think things through or might overthink them, she's doing her best to protect herself and her friends, and she is still a child. Fifteen is a confusing age under the best of circumstances, and those were far from the best.

I would like to see Hermione mellow out a bit. She's much too tense for a fifteen-year-old girl, and while circumstances have been extremely stressful, she still needs to take time just to be a teenage girl for a while.



The giant squid - Oct 25, 2004 1:50 am (#930 of 2486)
Michelle the Librarian, re Google: If Dudley can have a Playstation years before they hit the mass market, LV can Google.



TomProffitt - Oct 25, 2004 4:37 am (#931 of 2486)
"She's much too tense for a fifteen-year-old girl, and while circumstances have been extremely stressful, she still needs to take time just to be a teenage girl for a while." --- Weeny Owl

I don't think Hermione wants to do that. I think she's one of those kids who wants to jump strait into adulthood at the earliest possible moment. In seven or eight years she will regret it, but right now, she wants to be an adult.



Solitaire - Oct 25, 2004 7:31 am (#932 of 2486)
Weeny, it may be as you say ... but I think Hermione is just one of those kids who is "fifteen going on 40." She appears to be an only child, which means most of her early life may have been spent with her parents and other adults. With the Wizarding War about to shift into high gear, I doubt she is going to have much of a "teenager-hood."

With the exception of the Weasley kids--whose childhoods seem to have been relatively "normal"--most of the major kids (Harry, Neville, Luna, even Draco) seem to have had less-than-average childhoods. Harry's was miserable, and Neville's was probably odd, having been raised by Gran and Uncle Algie. Luna lost her mom at an early age, and Draco's parents are DEs.

I think this generation is much like Harry's parents' generation ... they are going to have to grow up fast, and a lot of them are not going to make it. Hermione knows this, I think, and is moving forward as she understands things. I'd like to say more, but I need to go to work!

Solitaire



Weeny Owl - Oct 25, 2004 10:57 am (#933 of 2486)
All of that is true, but I would still like to see her do some things now and then that show her not quite so driven. I know we'll never see it, but I wonder what she's like with her parents when they go on summer vacations. Does that poor girl ever relax?



Hermy-own - Oct 25, 2004 1:19 pm (#934 of 2486)
"Does that poor girl ever relax?"

Weeny, I have asked myself that same question on several occasions, and each time I seem to come up with the same answer: No.

One has to wonder just what it would take to get her to relax, or to be more laid back. (Not that there's anything wrong with being ... err ... diligent. )

Hermy.



Tessa's Dad - Oct 25, 2004 1:31 pm (#935 of 2486)
I thought she was taking Arithmancy to relax.



TomProffitt - Oct 25, 2004 1:33 pm (#936 of 2486)
SPEW is her idea of relaxation.



total hatred - Oct 25, 2004 2:32 pm (#937 of 2486)
By the way, what SPEW stands for? Strictly Potter Exclusive Women?



Elanor - Oct 25, 2004 2:41 pm (#938 of 2486)
Well, we know she did relax sometimes during the summer when she knitted some clothes for the house-elves. Knitting is a very relaxing activity because your hands are busy but your mind is free to wander. In Hogwarts magic helped her doing that but she couldn't use magic for that during the holidays. Writing to Victor could also be a way for her to relax.



Prefect Marcus - Oct 25, 2004 2:50 pm (#939 of 2486)
S.P.E.W. = "Society to Promote Elf Welfare", if memory serves me correctly. I don't have a GoF on me. Chapter 14.



Hermy-own - Oct 25, 2004 2:57 pm (#940 of 2486)
Fear not, Marcus: I have my copy of GoF ...

'Not spew,' said Hermione impatiently. 'It's S-P-E-W. Stands for the Society for the Promotion of Elfish Welfare.'

From The Unforgivable Curses--Chapter 14 (well remembered!)



haymoni - Oct 25, 2004 9:20 pm (#941 of 2486)
I like "spew" better.

I think Hermione truly is driven and her idea of relazing is curling up with a book. You could tell by her actions in the Room of Requirement. She didn't gawk at all the items in the room. She went straight for the books and began reading one while waiting for the others to arrive.



Prefect Marcus - Oct 26, 2004 12:46 pm (#942 of 2486)
Some would call that 'obsessed', Haymoni. :-)



roz000 - Oct 30, 2004 9:00 pm (#943 of 2486)
I posed this queston about Harry too. Does anybody think that Hermione will die in the end? I mean not just saying no becuse you really like her or whatever, does anybody think that she will die in the end?



Solitaire - Oct 31, 2004 12:32 am (#944 of 2486)
Roz, I think it is a foregone conclusion that some of our favorites are going to die. I am holding out hope for our Trio, Neville, Remus, McGonagall, and Dumbledore to survive ... but we know JKR doesn't play favorites, and she may take out any or all of them, including Harry. I try not to think about it too much.

Solitaire



Kelly Kapaoski - Oct 31, 2004 2:19 pm (#945 of 2486)
I think that Hermione's parents are going to be attacked by Voldemort and his remaining death eaters just to get at Harry.



Solitaire - Oct 31, 2004 2:30 pm (#946 of 2486)
Wouldn't attacking the Grangers be more likely to get to Hermione, since they are her parents?



Paulus Maximus - Oct 31, 2004 2:31 pm (#947 of 2486)
Yes, and once they get Hermione too, they'll be able to get to Harry...



Solitaire - Oct 31, 2004 2:43 pm (#948 of 2486)
I think it would certainly enrage Harry and call him into action, because they are Muggles and would not have magic to defend themselves. But we have to remember that Hermione is now in their scope on her own merit, since she participated in the battle which resulted in the capture of so many DEs. Any attack on the Grangers can no longer be written off solely as a way of getting to Harry. Hermione may be young, but it is obvious that she has the potential to be a powerful witch. Her relationship to Harry and Dumbledore also make her a threat.

Solitaire



Hollywand - Oct 31, 2004 5:00 pm (#949 of 2486)
I don't think we will lose Hermione through an external attack. I think Hermione may be "lost" from the trio inthat she may develop a romantic interest in a dashing young chap from another school.



Muggle Doctor - Nov 1, 2004 1:50 pm (#950 of 2486)
Like Viktor, for instance? (A serious relationship, not just visiting a pen-friend...)

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Hollywand - Nov 1, 2004 4:22 pm (#951 of 2486)
Exactly, Muggle Doctor. Do you by any chance know some Muggle Dentists with a talented little witch for a daughter? These Muggle Dentists may play a very significant role in the dark lord's defeat with their knowledge of mercury, as it is used for tooth fillings. More on the Alchemy Thread.

Viktor's relationship with Hermione may lead her, and her two best friends, away from Hogwarts for a spell (pun intended).



Urvi Bhimani - Nov 1, 2004 6:26 pm (#952 of 2486)
I don't think Hermione will die. I think Ron will be...



total hatred - Nov 2, 2004 3:12 pm (#953 of 2486)
I agree. Ron must die. Hermione is far too resilient to die.



Weeny Owl - Nov 2, 2004 11:57 pm (#954 of 2486)
I agree. Ron must die. Hermione is far too resilient to die.

I don't see that Hermione is too resilient to die nor that Ron must die.

JKR can go either way with any of her characters, except that Voldemort must be destroyed one way or another.

There are many reasons why JKR wouldn't kill Ron. There are many reasons why she would.

I think she'll keep him alive, although he might be seriously injured along the way.

Some hints that she will kill him seem obvious, but then again, I can't pinpoint any obvious hints that she planned on killing Cedric, so she could deal with Ron and other characters in a lot of ways.



Sir Tornado - Nov 3, 2004 3:09 am (#955 of 2486)
There weren't any obvious hints pointing to Cedric's death because he wasn't a main character. The only book where he has a significant role is Goblet of Fire.



Phoenix song - Nov 3, 2004 7:04 am (#956 of 2486)
Actually, I think that there was a significant clue that Cedric would die. In the "weighing of the wands" we discovered that his wand had a core of unicorn hair. Firenze told us that the innocent (the unicorns) were always the first to die, it had always been this way. Unfortunately, we know that Ron's first wand had a unicorn hair core as well, as it was sticking out of the end on the first train ride to Hogwarts. Interestingly enough, Ron's replacement wand ALSO has a unicorn tail hair. This time, though, the wand itself was made of willow. (Ironic since the Womping Willow was key in destroying the first one. AND since Lily's wand was made of willow.) I'm not taking this as a total clue that Ron will die, but I'm afraid that he'll be injured at least.

I agree that JKR does not make any promises that any of the characters lives' will be held sacrosanct. We know that she decided early on who would live and who would die. I'm hoping that all of the trio live. However, I can see that there are clues that Ron is in mortal danger.

I haven't really seen evidence that Hermione will be killed. I know that Prefect Marcus has collected quite a lot of evidence to discount my belief, and that's okay. I find that Hermione's parents seem to be in a very vulnerable position, as they are always described in an extremely vulnerable manner. But I think that Hermione will live, and it is my fondest hope that all of the trio survive as well.

Barbie



Steve Newton - Nov 3, 2004 7:09 am (#957 of 2486)
Wow, Phoenix, great catch.



Catherine - Nov 3, 2004 7:25 am (#958 of 2486)
I'm still evaluating Marcus theory that Hermione will die, but I wanted to say that I do think that JKR laid a small clue about Cedric's fate in the weighing of the wands.

I found the tests that Mr. Ollivander performed on the wands to be interesting. Fleur's wand shot out flowers, like her name; Krum is described as duck-footed and hook-nosed, and his wand emitted birds in flight; Harry's wand shot out wine, which reminds me of the blood that was taken from him during the rebirthing ceremony; and Cedric's wand emitted smoke rings, which reminded me of Cedric's shadowy, smoky echo that came from Voldemort's wand.



Paulus Maximus - Nov 3, 2004 11:12 am (#959 of 2486)
Ron's first wand was a hand-me-down from Charlie, if I remember correctly...

But the boggart didn't reveal dead Charlie...

And as for Ron being "injured at least"... it's happened before. First there was the blow to his head from the white queen, then the broken leg on the night Sirius and Pete escaped, then the insanity curse and the brain attack at the Department of Mysteries...



Weeny Owl - Nov 3, 2004 11:30 am (#960 of 2486)
Actually, I think that there was a significant clue that Cedric would die. In the "weighing of the wands" we discovered that his wand had a core of unicorn hair. Firenze told us that the innocent (the unicorns) were always the first to die, it had always been this way.

Yes, that was a good clue, but when I said obvious clues, I mean ones similar to when when Ron says "Die, Ron, die."

Hermione is definitely vulnerable, as are her parents.

Out of the six in the Department of Mysteries, I thought Hermione would be standing at the end with Harry but it was Neville.

Hermione is powerful, but as has already been mentioned, she may not be quite ready to think on her feet in the midst of a battle.

I want the six from the Department of Mysteries alive at the end of the series, but I can see any of them dying really.



Steve Newton - Nov 4, 2004 8:41 am (#961 of 2486)
I was listening to OOTP last night and was interested in Hermione taking her OWL in Ancient Runes. Is she studying up on ways to use ancient magic? Perhaps to defeat Lord V or just to understand what happened to Harry.



mike miller - Nov 4, 2004 12:45 pm (#962 of 2486)
Steve - Maybe Hermione is researching the events that lead to the House Elves enslavement!



Steve Newton - Nov 4, 2004 12:50 pm (#963 of 2486)
Could be. But...that would be much more rational than anything that she has done for the elves. I also don't see what runes would have to do with it. Of course, that could be why it takes research.



Madame Librarian - Nov 4, 2004 1:49 pm (#964 of 2486)
Given JKR's propensity for not including completely superfluous material, I have a suspicion that Hermione's knowledge of runes will be a factor in future. I was hoping it was going to be a big deal regarding Harry's scar, but alas, JKR says not (in some Q and A session, don't know which). So then I hoped for a rune-like, cryptic scribble somewhere in the DoM scene. Again, zilch. At this point there are two books to go and many opportunities for using rune language. Regarding the Elves, if their magic is ancient and their history very old, runes may have been used for some equally old documents--stuffed inside an obscure book in the Hogwarts library, of course.

We'll see.

Ciao. Barb



TwinklingBlueEyes - Nov 4, 2004 5:10 pm (#965 of 2486)
Excuse the intereruption here for an odd thought. Dumbledore's scar. I wonder if it is not only shaped like the London Underground, but might be shaped as runes as well? Might make it very useful indeed.

Yeah, yeah, I know...toddling off to another thread...grabs butterbeer to go!



Tomoé - Nov 4, 2004 8:34 pm (#966 of 2486)
The London underground seems to be a little bit complex to be contained in a single rune.



Kelly Kapaoski - Nov 4, 2004 9:17 pm (#967 of 2486)
I will have to agree with you weeney owl hermione can't really think on her feet when it comes to combat. I think the last spell she cast during the battle at the department of mysteries is was a silencing charm which only barely save her from being killed by Dolohov (although Dolohov still managed to knock her out)



Steve Newton - Nov 5, 2004 7:19 am (#968 of 2486)
She thought pretty quick in Umbridge's office. She got herself and Harry alone with the little toad instead of surrounded by the Inquisitorial Squad.



Solitaire - Nov 5, 2004 8:21 am (#969 of 2486)
I'm not sure that it is a case of not being able to think on her feet. I think she, like the others (except Harry), was surprised to find herself in a situation that was generally wand-to-wand combat where people could die.

Consider our subject: Hermione, the one who thinks you can pretty much learn everything from books. Yes, she was instrumental in starting the DA, but I'm not sure she ever thought the need for those skills would crop up so quickly. Up to this point, it had been all theory with her. This was her first taste of reality in a life-and-death situation, and I believe she was surprised. I also believe it goes against her grain to hurt someone physically. However, I also believe she will rise to the challenge when she must.

Solitaire



Steve Newton - Nov 5, 2004 8:35 am (#970 of 2486)
Solitaire, it sounds to me like you agree that she did some quick thinking in an unexpected situation.



wwtMask - Nov 5, 2004 8:36 am (#971 of 2486)
I thought Hermione's wand work in the MoM was pretty good. She pulled off a beautiful Silencing Charm that probably ended up saving her life. And she's quick witted enough to burn crosses on the doors of the dark room and to seal the doors. Let's not write Ms. Granger off for a few missteps here or there :-)



Tomoé - Nov 5, 2004 11:12 am (#972 of 2486)
Solitaire -> This was her first taste of reality in a life-and-death situation

There was the Halloween Troll too, and she froze in terror. She couldn't run or even crawl for her life, let alone cast a spell. Ron was much more efficient in that scene, but he knew there was a troll around.

She did huge progresses since then.



TomProffitt - Nov 5, 2004 11:15 am (#973 of 2486)
No one can think on their feet in combat. That's why soldiers train. That's why the DA was so important, Umbridge was denying them the opportunity to train. Let's not sell Hermione short, none of the DA were thinking fast enough to do anything much more effective than run away.



Annika - Nov 5, 2004 11:22 am (#974 of 2486)
I think their performance in the DoM, given their age and the experience of their opponents, was outstanding. Their reaction was "flight" of the fight or flight instinct, and rightfully so. They didn't know when the next DE would burst into the room. They just wanted to get away alive, and that they did.

Annika



Steve Newton - Nov 5, 2004 12:02 pm (#975 of 2486)
At one point in the battle Hermione says of one of the DEs, "You can't hurt a baby." Is this just an expression or is it a magical reality? Like why Harry is still around.



Tomoé - Nov 5, 2004 12:25 pm (#976 of 2486)
That's a little bit fishy anyway, a baby with the strength of a full grown man can hurt himself very badly, a baby with the strength of a baby can hurt himslef very badly anyway, that's why we have to use CONSTANT VIGILENCE with them. Put the herculean baby in a room full a time-turner, let him wander in rooms with dangerous stuff all around, I think to petrify him would have be giving the guy a favor really, unless the spell is too strong for a baby brain.



Solitaire - Nov 5, 2004 8:00 pm (#977 of 2486)
Steve, I do agree with you. I don't think Hermione or any of the kids lacked the ability to think quickly. I simply believe they had never truly understood what Harry tried to tell them way back in the talking stages of the DA. Remember what he said to Ron and Hermione about what it felt like to face Voldemort:

You think it's just memorizing a bunch of spells and throwing them at him, like you're in class or something? The whole time you're sure you know there's nothing between you and dying except your own--your own brain or guts or whatever--like you can think straight when you know you're about a second from being murdered, or tortured, or watching your friends die--"

In the DoM, the kids had a taste of what Harry meant--though it was still not to the level Harry had experienced the previous year in the graveyard, IMO. If Hermione or anyone else was not yet on a par with a DE in battle, well, who is? They are cold-blooded, seasoned assassins. Given the kids' lack of practical experience and their surprise at finding themselves in a genuine fight for their lives, I think they acquitted themselves pretty well.

I also think they have a lot to learn ... but I believe this brush with death should go a long way toward helping them understand this, so that they can accept and do what they need to do to become competent opponents of the DEs.

Solitaire



Steve Newton - Nov 5, 2004 8:25 pm (#978 of 2486)
"I also think they have a lot to learn"

You bet!



Paulus Maximus - Nov 8, 2004 12:25 pm (#979 of 2486)
Hermione knows a lot about magic. Maybe there is a physical restraint that prevents magical harm to babies.

And maybe that's part of the reason why Voldemort couldn't AK Harry that first time...



Stringer - Nov 8, 2004 12:51 pm (#980 of 2486)
I am listening to OOP, and am amazed by the knowledge of Hermione. When Harry wants to go to the DOM to save Sirius, Hermione tells us the reality of the story. Sirius is not there, Voldie is getting Harry to play the hero. I vow to listen to Hermione more seriously. I think JK uses her as a grounding point. Not really a shocking revelation, but I will think more about Hermione's opinion.



Solitaire - Nov 8, 2004 1:30 pm (#981 of 2486)
I have often wondered about that, Paulus. Remember in PS/SS, I believe it was Firenze (although I could be suffering from movie contamination; no books handy) who told Harry that killing something as pure and defenseless as a unicorn was a horrible crime, and that from the moment its blood touched the killer's lips, he would lead a half life, a cursed life.

This started me thinking about Voldemort and Harry. Voldemort attempts to kill baby Harry in order to prolong his own life in his quest for immortality. Surely a baby is pure and defenseless, as well. Could attempting to kill a baby rebound and curse the one who attempted it? Just a thought ...

Solitaire



KWeldon - Nov 8, 2004 1:57 pm (#982 of 2486)
Could attempting to kill a baby rebound and curse the one who attempted it?

Solitaire,

I like where you're going with this, but why would Hermione know this and Voldemort not know it?

KWeldon



The One - Nov 8, 2004 2:01 pm (#983 of 2486)
I like where you're going with this, but why would Hermione know this and Voldemort not know it?

Or Dumbledore. He never mentions this as a possible explanation for Harry's survival.



Paulus Maximus - Nov 8, 2004 2:05 pm (#984 of 2486)
Voldemort doesn't know everything about magic. Hermione may well know more about certain charms than Voldemort does.

Cases in point: When Voldemort's AK pointed at Harry backfired and nearly killed Voldemort; when Fawkes' tears purged the basilisk poison from Harry's wound; when Harry's and Voldemort's wands did the Priori Incantatem... All can be attributed to Voldemort's ignorance or forgetfulness about magic, whereas Hermione makes it a point to learn everything there is to know about magic...

Of course, Hermione may make similar errors by the time she turns 70...

Dumbledore said "We can only guess (how Harry survived). We may never know" at the beginning of PS. By the end of the book, however, he seemed to know that Lily's death was what allowed Harry to survive.

However, Dumbledore is not infallible, as evidenced by his actions in book 5. He may have been wrong about how Harry survived, as well. It may have been no more than a guess.



Muggle Doctor - Nov 8, 2004 7:33 pm (#985 of 2486)
Speaking of things, or runes, or whatever, shaped like the London Underground - Aussie fantasy author Sara Douglass based her "Troy Game" novels (two in print, two coming) on this very premise - that the London underground and/or certain other aspects of London architecture tie in with the presence of a labyrinth beneath the city (like that in which the Minotaur resided) which had protective effects (or destructive ones, in the wrong hands). The two existing novels are "Hades' Daughter" and "God's Concubine" (Gods' Concubine for those in the US).

Off topic, I know, but I thought people would be interested.



Solitaire - Nov 8, 2004 8:43 pm (#986 of 2486)
Muggle Doctor, you might want to post your information on the Ancient Runes and Arithmancy thread, as well. No one has posted there for a while, and your post might get things going again. You never know ... Just a suggestion! Smile

Solitaire



Madame Librarian - Nov 9, 2004 10:12 am (#987 of 2486)
Doesn't Firenze also same something like "we don't kill the young ones?" Or was that Ronan?

Ciao. Barb



Solitaire - Nov 9, 2004 12:19 pm (#988 of 2486)
Barb, I believe it was Ronan or one of the others (Magorian, perhaps?), who said it when Hagrid took the kids into the forest to meet Grawp. I think Firenze had already been driven out of the forest by this point. Remember he told Harry, after his first divination lesson, to tell Hagrid "the attempt is not working," or something like that; this was before the kids had met or even knew about Grawp. And Firenze already had a large hoof bruise on his chest.

I believe Bane is rather hostile to Hagrid and to humans in general, and he was angry at Hagrid for bringing them into the forest. He also resented Hermione "using" the Centaurs to get away from Umbridge, saying she expected them to do her "dirty work" (my expression) for her. Sorry I can't be more specific. I'm at school on a break (no books).

Solitaire



Madame Librarian - Nov 9, 2004 12:59 pm (#989 of 2486)
Thanks, Solitaire. Whoever said it is less important than the fact it was stated as a moral code restriction by yet another group of magical beings who abhor the idea of harming the young. Hermione might have been referring to something of the sort, or just blurting out a in a girly-girl way (like when you know you have mouse the house and you let your husband go after it with instructions such as, "...oh, but don't hurt the poor little thing....").

That's what's so clever about the way JKR chooses her words. Multiple interpretations, surface meanings that are really hints to something important, confounding bits that jump out at you upon subsequent readings. Oh, the torture, oh, the pleasure!

Ciao. Barb



mike miller - Nov 11, 2004 10:29 am (#990 of 2486)
There were a number of posts on this thread recently regarding Hermione's performance during the battle at the DoM, many critical of Herminoe's ability to think fast on her feet. I would like to point out that after the initial spells to bring down the shelves, Hermione is the first to cast a spell. First, she stuns a DE who's grabbed Harry's shoulder and then she locks the door behind them when they run out of the Prophesy room. Hermione does under-estimate the impact of the "Silencio" spell and the DE's ability to cast a spell, but that's it.

I think Hermione did very well. She accurately determined the true nature of the situation, she convinced Harry to try to confirm his vision and she marked the doors in the revolving room. All in all, I'd want Hermione with me anytime there's danger a foot!



Ludicrous Patents Office - Nov 11, 2004 9:03 pm (#991 of 2486)
I agree Mike. I would like to have Hermione around if there is any danger present. I thought she did well at the DoM. LPO



Annika - Nov 12, 2004 5:54 am (#992 of 2486)
I too thought she did well in the DoM. I found it strange that Harry (when preparing to go to the MoM) had said that he and Ron would go ahead and Hermione would wait with the others until more thestrals came. Hermione, being the clever witch that she is, would have been my choice for the mission.

Annika



Steve Newton - Nov 12, 2004 8:02 am (#993 of 2486)
I can think of a couple of reasons Harry may have wanted to have gone with Ron and not Hermione. They have been teammates and have a chance of working as a team in a tight situation, or he may have been acting 'gallant,' protecting the girl. I know, it sounds pretty dated.



Catherine - Nov 12, 2004 8:10 am (#994 of 2486)
Harry also knows that Hermione doesn't really like horses, as she states in Chapter 27 of OoP, and that Hermione did not enjoy flying on Buckbeak when they went to rescue Sirius from Professor Flitwick's office in PoA.

He may have just assumed that she would prefer to not ride an invisible flying horse all the way to the MoM.



The One - Nov 12, 2004 12:23 pm (#995 of 2486)
Hermione was smelling of blood. She, unlike Ron could be left behind in order to attract more thestrals.

But I doubt that is the only reason. Harry is probably still thinking of Hermione more as a thinker than a fighter. Action is for the boys.



Paulus Maximus - Nov 12, 2004 1:46 pm (#996 of 2486)
Is?

Hermione, not Ron, was with Harry for the better part of the Battle of Mysteries. Harry has the measure of Hermione's abilities in combat much better than Ron's.

Maybe Harry WAS thinking of Hermione as more of a thinker than a fighter up until that point...



Ydnam96 - Nov 12, 2004 4:23 pm (#997 of 2486)
Paulus I agree. I think at the time Harry's mind was racing and worried and he just wanted to get there as fast as possible. Ron as his Best Friend would of course be his first thought. Although, if he had put a little more time into it, he may have wanted Hermione instead Smile



Solitaire - Nov 12, 2004 9:41 pm (#998 of 2486)
Well, if you look at the bottom of page 761 (OotP, US ed.): Harry's eyes met Ron's. He knew that Ron was thinking exactly what he was: If he could have chosen any members of the D.A. in addition to himself, Ron, and Hermione to join him in the attempt to rescue Sirius, he would not have picked Ginny, Neville, or Luna.

I believe Harry thinks of Hermione as just as capable as Ron. I almost think he sees the three of them as we do--fairly entertwined. They function best as a trio, because each seems to "fill in" something the other is missing. It will be interesting to see how that dynamic continues ... if it does.

Solitaire



Ydnam96 - Nov 12, 2004 9:51 pm (#999 of 2486)
Haha, goes to show you I should look things up before I comment on them Smile



Solitaire - Nov 12, 2004 10:09 pm (#1000 of 2486)
Ydnam, I thought your comment was valid.

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Ydnam96 - Nov 13, 2004 10:42 am (#1001 of 2486)
thanks Solitare!

so, in any case, Hermione is definitely someone I would want to have around in a dangerous situation. She seems to have a great ability to think calmly and rationally despite the circumstances (something I am not capable of). I wonder if the battle in the MoM is giving us a clue about what is coming in the final battle? Will Hermione be a casulty?



Ludicrous Patents Office - Nov 13, 2004 11:52 am (#1002 of 2486)
Ydnam96 I hope not! Several of the clues point to Ron so Ron may be the red herring and Hermione may not make it.

Hermione is very intelligent. She puts an incredible amount of effort into her studies. Now that she has been in battle I hope she focuses on tactics, counter curses and defensive maneuvers. She could come up with some good ones! LPO



Solitaire - Nov 13, 2004 12:17 pm (#1003 of 2486)
I agree with LPO. Remember that in the Book 1, Hermione received 50 points from Dumbledore "for the use of cool logic in the face of fire." This sets her up from the get-go as capable of keeping her head in a crisis. I think that "cool logic"--coupled with her intelligence--will eventually help shape her into an excellent tactician.

Solitaire



Ydnam96 - Nov 17, 2004 7:14 pm (#1004 of 2486)
Too true Solitaire. She has quite the ability to keep her cool and doesn't JK say that she uses Hermione (and DD) to speak for herself in the series? If the theory that DD is going to sacrifice himself for Harry is true, then we definetly need Hermione around, or we would loose the voice of "reason" completely.



Ludicrous Patents Office - Nov 17, 2004 8:59 pm (#1005 of 2486)
Ydnam96, It will be tough for JKR to knock off DD or Hermione. I agree one of them must survive. LPO



TomProffitt - Nov 21, 2004 5:18 am (#1006 of 2486)
Don't forget Jo's past work for Amnesty International. Her area was the former French colonies I believe. The recent Civil Wars there were extremely (and still are) violent and heinous. I see no reason for Jo to let us off easy, she knows how horrible the world is and can be. I'm not saying I expect Dumbledore and Hermione to die, but counting on Jo to save us(and Harry) from the trauma is just wishful thinking in my opinion.



Mara Jade - Dec 7, 2004 10:36 pm (#1007 of 2486)
This is a bit off the current track, but does anyone think that Hermione will be made Head Girl in book 7?



Solitaire - Dec 8, 2004 3:15 am (#1008 of 2486)
I think it is an interesting track, Mara. She seems like a shoo-in (or is that "shoe-in"? Too late here ...) on the surface, although we know from James Potter that a Head Boy didn't necessarily have to be a prefect to get the post. Among the girls from her year whose names we know (and I'm relying on the Lexicon here; I don't know them all), who is her most obvious competition?

Gryffindor -- Lavender Brown & Parvati Patil
Ravenclaw -- Padma Patil, Mandy Brocklehurst, Morag McDougal, Lisa Turpin
Hufflepuff -- Susan Bones, Hannah Abbott, Megan Jones
Slytherin -- Pansy Parkinson, Millicent Bullstrode, Tracey Davis, Daphne Greengrass(?), ... and have we been told whether Blaise Zambini is male or female?

I confess, I don't even remember having read the names of Mandy, Megan, Tracey, and Daphne. I just pulled their names from the Lexicon list of "knowns" from each house during Hermione's year. Please feel free to correct me if I left out someone who belongs or put in someone who doesn't belong.

Anyway, Hermione seems to stand out over the above girls, but perhaps she is getting so heavily involved in "other things" that she may not be considered. Given the fact that her parents would understand that kind of honor if it came to her (based on her comment about becoming Prefect), I can see her being a bit hurt if it didn't happen ... or am I alone on this?

Solitaire



Weeny Owl - Dec 8, 2004 3:34 am (#1009 of 2486)
Blaise Zabini is male.

Hermione being made Head Girl would be wonderful under most circumstances, but with a war on and with her being Muggle-born, she might not want to draw more attention to herself than she already has.



TomProffitt - Dec 8, 2004 6:21 am (#1010 of 2486)
Presuming that Dumbledore and McGonagall survive to the end of HBP (and are therefore the ones involved in choosing the Head Girl) I cannot imagine anyone else being considered for Head Girl.

Because of the War Dumbledore is going to choose his Head Boy & Head Girl based upon the level of trust, responsibility, and knowledge they have towards the War.

Conversely, this puts Harry, Ron, and possibly Neville in position for Head Boy.



wwtMask - Dec 8, 2004 6:48 am (#1011 of 2486)
If anyone beats Hermione out for Head Girl, I think the next thing to happen will be Voldemort becoming the patron saint of muggle-borns.

Ok, seriously, if we really think about it, Hermione is probably the smartest and most responsible person in Harry's year. She's a model student and has shown that she can manage quite well with her studies while also doing her prefect duties. If anyone can match her on these qualifications (and assuming that's all you need to do to be head boy or girl), I can't see anyone beating her out.



Steve Newton - Dec 8, 2004 7:49 am (#1012 of 2486)
Weeny says she might not want to draw more attention to herself than she already has."

I think that Hermione was already a target before the Department of Mysteries. After the Battle she is now a prime target. I don't thing that she would even be allowed to be a turncoat. (I am in no was suggesting that she will try, just emphasize that she now has an invisible target on her forehead.)



Solitaire - Dec 8, 2004 8:33 am (#1013 of 2486)
LOL@wwtMask! Actually everyone makes good points. Steve, frankly, I think that target might as well be in bright red paint! Anyone as close to Harry as she is will be a target.

Sirius is now dead, so the DEs and Voldemort are going to start looking at other victims when they want to lure Harry out into the open. Hermione and Ron, I would say, are probably next on the "hit list," as I feel they are now his truly nearest and dearest. I also see several other Weasleys and Remus. All I can hope is that Harry will have learned from Sirius's death to be very sure that the crisis is indeed that and not a trap.

Solitaire



Kelly Kapaoski - Dec 9, 2004 1:19 pm (#1014 of 2486)
Hopefully Dumbledore has someone in the order tailing Mr. and Mrs. Granger now that Voldemort has come into the open; they will most definatly be targets for some muggle torture by the remaining death eaters. But Voldemort also has a tendency to ignore the obvious solution to a problem so he might try to cook up some ungodly complex plan to get at harry potter directly instead of trying to get him through a weak link in his armor



Muggle Doctor - Dec 9, 2004 2:04 pm (#1015 of 2486)
Voldemort always cooks up ungodly complex plans - that's why they fail to the simple raw courage of Harry and his friends. If Voldy had simply killed Harry in the graveyard, rather than give him his wand back and find in the course of their duel that Harry was in some ways almost as powerful as he was (certainly given strength by desperation!), it would all have been over.



Ludicrous Patents Office - Dec 9, 2004 8:15 pm (#1016 of 2486)
I think Hermione is the best choice for head girl. Ron may get to be head boy. Lily and James were a couple. If JKR has Ron and Hermione evolve into a couple they would make a great head boy and girl. LPO



Gerald Costales - Dec 10, 2004 7:17 am (#1017 of 2486)
“I think Hermione is the best choice for head girl. Ron may get to be head boy. Lily and James were a couple. If JKR has Ron and Hermione evolve into a couple they would make a great head boy and girl.” LPO

I used to be a strong supporter of a Harry and Hermione pairing. But, the hand touching scene between Ron and Hermione in the PoA Movie, when Hagrid brings out Buckbeak, has me thinking that JKR is clueing us for an eventual Ron and Hermione pairing. JKR has some input in the making of the Movies. I can’t think that scene with Buckbeak would have been shot without JKR’s approval.

However, I don’t necessarily think that Ron and Hermione will be automatically become Headboy and Headgirl just because they make a cute couple. This isn’t a vote on Homecoming King and Queen. I would hope that there is something, possibly who scores highest in the OWL’s, that would determine who becomes Headboy or Headgirl. Just my 2 knuts. ;-) GC



Solitaire - Dec 10, 2004 8:22 am (#1018 of 2486)
'Shipping aside (I hate the 'shipping stuff) ... while Ron is one of my favorite characters, I honestly think there are better choices for Head Boy. Granted, he might be better now that "Gred & Forge" are gone; but he was certainly not strong enough to stand up to them. I'm not sure how comfortable he is wearing the "mantle of authority," even though he did seem to long for it when looking into the Mirror of Erised.

As for the others ... I also believe Harry is a bit too busy with "other things" (meaning Voldemort) to give his whole attention to being Head Boy. Being Head Boy would probably also make him an even bigger target of Draco--speaking of whom, I hope Dumbledore has more sense than to appoint HIM! Looking at the kids objectively, I think one of the Ravenclaw boys (Anthony or Terry?) might make a good Head Boy. Speaking objectively, I think Ernie is the best choice. I believe we were given a bit more insight into his character in the last book, and I also think it would be a good way to pull some kids from the other houses into the forefront just a bit. JM2K, of course ... **let the dungbombs begin**

Solitaire



Kelly Kapaoski - Dec 10, 2004 2:29 pm (#1019 of 2486)
Hermione will be head girl but Ron will stay as a prefect because the headboy position will probably go to Ernie Macmillan.



Potions Mistress - Dec 10, 2004 7:59 pm (#1020 of 2486)
I agree, Solitaire. Hermione seems to be the best candidate for Headgirl, and I would bet my 10 Galleons on Ernie becoming Headboy. If Hermione does indeed become Headgirl, I wonder how that will affect her SPEW campaign...

~pm



Czarina II - Dec 10, 2004 8:32 pm (#1021 of 2486)
Well, we know now that Hermione was born in 1979, not 1980, and is thus older than her friends. (JKR says so now on her site.) So she will turn 17 in HbP. Hmmm, maybe she will wait until the spring and get her Apparition license with Ron? Or will she be Apparating throughout Hogsmeade?



Kelly Kapaoski - Dec 11, 2004 1:51 am (#1022 of 2486)
she will have to wait until at least the winter holiday to get her apparition license since she will be in school on her 17th birthday. but once she has it I wouldn't put it past her to apperate around hogsmeade just to show off.



Gerald Costales - Dec 11, 2004 11:53 am (#1023 of 2486)
I found it interesting that Hermione was a year older than most of the students in her class. If Hermione's parent's held her back a year, I wonder what were the circumstances. Was Hermione ill, injured, etc.?

I think Hermione will make an excellent Headgirl. But, what are the duties of being Headboy or Headgirl? We really didn't get too much information about the Headboy position from what we saw of Percy when he became Headboy.

And if Hermione becomes Headgirl and Ron remains just a Prefect, how do you think Ron will react? Ron did see himself as Headboy in the Mirror of Erised. So, Ron must have had a desire to be Headboy at the time Ron was looking into the Mirror of Erised. If so, does Ron still want to become a Headboy or has being a Prefect changed Ron's current desires about the Headboy position? ;-) GC



Czarina II - Dec 11, 2004 12:26 pm (#1024 of 2486)
Hermione wasn't held back, she just wasn't old enough to attend in September of 1990, so she had to wait until 1991. At my school, there were students in my grade who were born on Jan. 2nd and had to wait a whole year later to start school than if they had been born three days earlier.



The One - Dec 11, 2004 12:28 pm (#1025 of 2486)
It is nothing special whatsover, no matter how you do things, the oldest student in a class will be almost a year older than the youngest.

The rue is that anyone magic that is 11 years old by the 1st of september one year may start school at Hogwarts that year. Hermione turned 11 at the 19th of september and thus had to wait almost untill she turned 12 before she could start school.



Paulus Maximus - Dec 11, 2004 12:38 pm (#1026 of 2486)
It's very interesting that DD referred to Harry and Hermione as "two thirteen-year-old wizards" at a time when Hermione was 14...



Hermy-own - Dec 11, 2004 4:38 pm (#1027 of 2486)
"two thirteen-year-old wizards"--Paulus

Is this the actual quote? Surely Hermione is a witch, not a wizard. Perhaps the terms wizard and witch are interchangeable - something I didn't realise.



Paulus Maximus - Dec 11, 2004 4:50 pm (#1028 of 2486)
In Latin and Greek, when two objects of different gender are both described in the same sentence, masculine trumps feminine and feminine trumps neuter.

In English as well, when the gender is indefinite, masculine is the default. "Two wizards" could refer to a witch and a wizard, since there is no word for a magical person of indefinite gender.

Or perhaps I was mistaken about the quote. But I'm quite sure that DD referred to Hermione as a 13-year-old in June 1994.



Hermy-own - Dec 11, 2004 5:37 pm (#1029 of 2486)
Thanks Paulus.



Gerald Costales - Dec 11, 2004 6:45 pm (#1030 of 2486)
Even if Dumbledore called Hermione a 13-year old, it was just a small mistake. After all, Dumbledore is as human as the next Wizard. He puts his robes on the same way as all of us. Dumbledore did hire Gilderoy, which was a big mistake. And of course, Dumbledore didn’t know Mad Eye was really Barty Crouch Jr., which was a huge mistake.

Hermione’s age is just an interesting factoid and probably has little impact on the big picture. The fact that I think is really important is that Hermione, along with Cho and Harry, is one the few students that can summon a Patronus.

Maybe Hermione or Cho will have to ward off dementors, etc. in Book 6. I think Hermione proved her metal in the Battle at the Ministry of Magic. ;-) GC



Saralinda Again - Dec 11, 2004 7:30 pm (#1031 of 2486)
I see no significance to the "thirteen-year-olds" comment. If I'm teaching fifth grade [::shudder:: never again] I'm apt to refer to "a bunch of ten-year-olds" regardless of whether some turned ten late or eleven early. One thinks of a grade as something of an age cohort.

Saralinda/Kayte



Solitaire - Dec 11, 2004 7:50 pm (#1032 of 2486)
Saralinda is correct. I teach 7th grade, and the general age is 12. However, I have a few 11-year-olds and many who are already 13. Some years, 12 almost seems to be the exception and either older or younger seems to be the rule. It just depends ... I think of them all as 12--although lately there have been days when they all act more like they are closer to 5.

Solitaire



Potions Mistress - Dec 11, 2004 10:55 pm (#1033 of 2486)
I'd imagine that DD's remark about "two 13-year old wizards" was just a minor Flint--although with Hermione and the Time-turner, who knows? ;-)

~pm



Solitaire - Dec 12, 2004 5:09 am (#1034 of 2486)
Perhaps Dumbledore doesn't worry about such mundane things as age with most of the students. He'd naturally be aware of Harry's and Neville's exact ages and birthdays, but I wouldn't expect him to know the precise ages of all of the Hogwarts kids. Besides, considering his own advanced age, he probably doesn't see much difference between 13 and 14.



Ronan - Dec 12, 2004 5:18 am (#1035 of 2486)
It's a pity that Hermione has been revealed to be born in 1979, up until now I had thought she was born on exactly the same date as me! Smile Anyway, I wonder what she did during that blank year? Did she spend the whole year reading books about magic? Wink Maybe Hogwarts has that 11 year old rule, but does the rest of muggle schools in the UK have similar rules? Here in Spain people turning 11 even as late as 31st December would have joined the same school year as those turning 11 during the summer.



Dr Filibuster - Dec 12, 2004 10:54 am (#1036 of 2486)
Ronan, English and Welsh schools have a 1st September cut off date. It's extremely rare for a child to start secondary school at 10 years old.

Do you think Hermione got her Hogwarts letter on her 11th birthday? The owls started to arrive before Harry's. Maybe all the letters are sent on the same day and it was just a coincidence that Harry only got to read his the hour he turned 11?



Weeny Owl - Dec 12, 2004 12:28 pm (#1037 of 2486)
Do you think Hermione got her Hogwarts letter on her 11th birthday? The owls started to arrive before Harry's. Maybe all the letters are sent on the same day and it was just a coincidence that Harry only got to read his the hour he turned 11?

I agree with that, Dr Filibuster. It makes sense that McGonagall would send all the letters at the same time to anyone who was going to start school that year. There would be no reason for her to have to check the list and send owls off and on during the school year for someone who isn't starting until the next school year.



Solitaire - Dec 12, 2004 1:25 pm (#1038 of 2486)
You never know ... Hermione had enough time between receiving her owl and starting school to read Hogwarts: A History. She also appeared to be quite familiar with potion ingredients, which leads me to suspect she had probably read Snape's text cover to cover, as well as McGonagall's and Flitwick's. She'd apparently also read Quidditch Through the Ages in an attempt to learn all she could about flying before she boarded her broomstick for the first time!

I suppose two months might have been long enough for someone like Hermione to have read all her new textbooks. She probably made her folks take her to Diagon Alley and get everything the day she received her notification. Of course, considering it's Hermione we are discussing, it's possible that her parents had enrolled her in an Evelyn Wood speed-reading class when she was 5, and a month would have been more than sufficient!

Solitaire



total hatred - Dec 12, 2004 5:17 pm (#1039 of 2486)
Still, it doesn't make sense. Assuming the fact that what you said was true, do you think that Hermione will believe that she was a witch at that instance. Remember she is muggleborn and most Muggle has no knowledge about the WW. She might dismiss it a a sick joke. It lead me to believe that Hermione is not really a true Muggle but a descendant of a witch or wizard. Her family might be expecting some members of the family might end up magically inclined. It wis no shock to them when that letter arrived just like in Lily's case. It is just me, I noticed the pattern that most Headgirls revealed to us are muggleborn. Does this mean being a muggleborn increases your chances of being a Head Girl.



Kelly Kapaoski - Dec 12, 2004 8:45 pm (#1040 of 2486)
it could be possible that the represenitive of hogwarts sent to the homes of muggleborn wizards and witches preform a bit of magic in front of the parents and the child to prove that magic really exsists just in case the parents and child have been dismissing all of the odd stuff that the child has been doing before they got the letter.



Solitaire - Dec 12, 2004 9:16 pm (#1041 of 2486)
total hatred: It was no shock to them when that letter arrived just like in Lily's case.

The text does not really support this idea. We know Lily's parents were proud of her, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a surprise. Likewise, just because Hermione's parents didn't go ballistic the way Uncle Vernon did--and quite honestly, we don't know what they really did, since that scene was not described to us--does not mean they weren't surprised, or even a bit shocked.

Consider what Hermione herself says to Harry and Ron on their "maiden voyage" on the Hogwarts Express: "Nobody in my family's magic at all, it was ever such a surprise when I got my letter, but I was ever so pleased, of course, I mean it's the very best school of witchcraft there is, I've heard--I've learned all our coursebooks by heart, of course, I just hope it will be enough--I'm Hermione Granger, by the way, who are you?"

While both Hermione and her parents had probably become aware of some unusual things about her--just as Harry had noticed unusual things about himself--I'm not sure they connected it with her being a witch. Harry certainly hadn't. Remember Hagrid's response to Harry when he suggested Hagrid had made a mistake: "Not a wizard, eh? Never made things happen when you was scared or angry?"

It was probably very much the same with Hermione. The difference would be that her "magic" could be out in the open, because she did not have to conceal things from her parents the way Harry had to do with the Dursleys (once he found out). Quite honestly, I believe Aunt Petunia and Uncle Vernon really had known in the deep, dark corners of their nasty little hearts that Harry was magical (no matter how assiduously they had always tried to deny it). How could they not have known, particularly after the boa constrictor and hair regrowing incidents?

The idea about Muggle-borns and Head Girls is interesting. Wasn't Percy's girlfriend Penelope also a Head Girl and a Muggle-born? Hm ...

Solitaire



The One - Dec 12, 2004 11:11 pm (#1042 of 2486)
They knew. PS Ch 4:

"We swore when we took him in we'd put a stop to that rubbish," said Uncle Vernon, "swore we'd stamp it out of him! Wizard indeed!" "You knew?" said Harry. "You knew I'm a -- a wizard?" "Knew!" shrieked Aunt Petunia suddenly. "Knew! Of course we knew! How could you not be, my dratted sister being what she was? Oh, she got a letter just like that and disappeared off to that-that school-and came home every vacation with her pockets full of frog spawn, turning teacups into rats. I was the only one who saw her for what she was -- a freak! But for my mother and father, oh no, it was Lily this and Lily that, they were proud of having a witch in the family!" She stopped to draw a deep breath and then went ranting on. It seemed she had been wanting to say all this for years. "Then she met that Potter at school and they left and got married and had you, and of course I knew you'd be just the same, just as strange, just as -- as -- abnormal -- and then, if you please, she went and got herself blown up and we got landed with you!"



Kerrie-Louise - Dec 13, 2004 1:41 am (#1043 of 2486)
Not that I'm saying that children born in the wizarding world don't work hard but one theory came to mind about why the head girls seem to be muggle born. If I had lived a totally mundane life and then found out I was a witch and had gotten a place in this magical and wonderful school I would work really hard. It would be a great adventure for me and I'd probably study everything I could - including history of Magic. For those girls born into the wizarding world it's very much like one of us going to a normal secondary school, a bit exciting but nothing really new.



TomProffitt - Dec 13, 2004 3:48 am (#1044 of 2486)
"The idea about Muggle-borns and Head Girls is interesting. Wasn't Percy's girlfriend Penelope also a Head Girl and a Muggle-born? Hm ... " --- Solitaire

No "sitting" Head Girl has been named in Harry's time at Hogwarts. We do not know whether Penelope Clearwater was a Head Girl, only that she was a prefect.



Ladybug220 - Dec 13, 2004 7:07 am (#1045 of 2486)
She was head girl when Percy was head boy and that would have been in POA.



Paulus Maximus - Dec 13, 2004 8:39 am (#1046 of 2486)
Wasn't Penelope a year younger than Percy? I thought she was a fifth-year in Book 2...

Which would mean that she finished Hogwarts right after Voldemort's rebirth...

Anyway... Hermione...

Darn. Not sure how this relates to Hermione at all...



TomProffitt - Dec 13, 2004 10:19 am (#1047 of 2486)
"She was head girl when Percy was head boy and that would have been in POA." --- Ladybug220

Would you give a reference, please. I have no recollection of this.



wwtMask - Dec 13, 2004 11:11 am (#1048 of 2486)
As I recall, no Head girl was named. Presumably, considering that she was Percy's girlfriend, JKR would have mentioned that Penelope was also head girl.

On a different subject, does anyone else get the feeling that Hermione didn't like Cho too much? I've read several people's posts wherein they use Hermione's attitude towards Harry kissing Cho as proof that she is jealous of Cho. This could be true, but you could see it as her trying to be nice about a girl that she doesn't approve of for Harry.



TomProffitt - Dec 13, 2004 11:19 am (#1049 of 2486)
I never got the impression that Hermione did not like Cho. I occasionally felt that she was exasperated with Harry's thick-headedness, but not a dislike of Cho.

Frankly the list of people Hermione doesn't like is very short. I'd have trouble putting anyone other than Rita, Umbridge, Draco, & Pansy on the list. She's remarkably tolerant of things I wouldn't consider putting up with.



Prefect Marcus - Dec 13, 2004 2:57 pm (#1050 of 2486)
She doesn't think much of Trelawney.

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Czarina II - Dec 13, 2004 3:53 pm (#1051 of 2486)
I think Hermione might have received her letter shortly after turning 11 (say around October) because she was a Muggleborn. We have no idea when McGonagall checks the magic book with all the names. But considering that Hermione had enough time to get over the shock of finding out that she was a witch, buy all her supplies and books, and read them all seems to indicate that she had a while to do so. Having six months or so would explain it all.

Hermione also works hard because she is a Muggleborn, and therefore an automatic underdog. She has to struggle to overcome wizarding prejudices and so she does so by overachieving (this happens a lot with students who go to expensive schools on scholarship, or with students of minority groups -- they want/have to prove themselves). Hermione proves to the wizarding world that she is just as capable a witch as Pansy Parkinson. Girls like Pansy are in turn jealous of her, because she is a slap in the face to them.b



The One - Dec 13, 2004 4:06 pm (#1052 of 2486)
Hermione also works hard because she is a Muggleborn, and therefore an automatic underdog. She has to struggle to overcome wizarding prejudices and so she does so by overachieving (this happens a lot with students who go to expensive schools on scholarship, or with students of minority groups -- they want/have to prove themselves).

Perhaps, but I somehow got the impression that she was the friendless nerd also in muggle school. The other kids do not always accept the overachievers, and trying to resolve the social problems by performing even better is one possible reaction. I have a feeling that the story about Miss Grangers social and achademic life would have been very much the same had she gone to a muggle school. Or she could have been worse of, she might not have met any kids that could have been her small group of close friends.



TomProffitt - Dec 13, 2004 9:46 pm (#1053 of 2486)
"She doesn't think much of Trelawney." --- Prefect Marcus

I agree that she doesn't think much of her as a teacher, but that is not the same as an active dislike of her. Hermione is much more forgiving than either Harry or Ron.



Solitaire - Dec 13, 2004 10:38 pm (#1054 of 2486)
Hermione may have a different opinion in the next book. In chapter 38, page 849 of OotP (US ed.), Ron makes the following comment: "Bet Dumbledore wishes he could've got rid of Trelawney for good ... Mind you, the whole subject's useless if you ask me, Firenze isn't a lot better ..."

"How can you say that?" Hermione demanded. "After we've just found out that there are real prophecies?"

And Hermione doesn't even know the content of the prophecy yet. Wait till she finds out. I wonder if she knows that it was made by Trelawney? Was that on the orb? I can't remember.

I agree that Trelawney is pretty lame, but once Hermione knows she made the prophecy in question, she may be a bit less derisive. She may also work out that Dumbledore is keeping her at Hogwarts to shield her, and this may make Hermione more of a champion for the old "underdog." JM2K, of course ...

Solitaire



TomProffitt - Dec 13, 2004 11:03 pm (#1055 of 2486)
It was labeled "SPT to APBWD."



scoop2172000 - Dec 14, 2004 9:18 am (#1056 of 2486)
Hermione being the oldest of the trio makes sense on several levels, one of which is her relationship with a much-old boy, Krum.

Girls often mature faster than boys in the teen-aged years. As a 15-year-old girl around the time of the Yule Ball, it seems to make more sense she'd attract the attention of an 18-year-old boy (Krum). If she had been only 14 at the time, he might have found her to be too immature.

Then again, Hermione is wise beyond her years in a lot of way.

So now we have it for the start of sixth year: Harry will have recently turned 16, Ron will be 16 1/2, and Hermione will be going-on 17.

This means that during sixth year, both Hermione and Ron will come of age -- and no longer be subject to the restriction on underage wizardy. Harry, on the other hand, will still be subject to the restriction -- an interesting prospect given his history of violating it.



Paulus Maximus - Dec 14, 2004 9:40 am (#1057 of 2486)
It is even more odd that the centaurs said that Harry (who was 15 at the time) was approaching manhood, while saying nothing about the fact that Hermione was already well into womanhood, given that she was 16 at the time...



Steve Newton - Dec 14, 2004 9:45 am (#1058 of 2486)
I don't think that the centaurs care about how the wizarding world classifies adulthood.



scoop2172000 - Dec 14, 2004 10:09 am (#1059 of 2486)
I think the centaurs differentiate between students and teachers, recognizing that as students, Harry and Hermione were not yet full-fledged adults -- but as older students (and thus older teens)they were approaching adulthood.

My spin on the remark of Harry approaching manhood was in recognition of how far his powers have grown. I imagine that centaurs, being magical themselves, could perceive Harry's power maturity.



TomProffitt - Dec 14, 2004 10:46 am (#1060 of 2486)
I think the centaurs were just plain sexist.



Steve Newton - Dec 14, 2004 10:50 am (#1061 of 2486)
TP, you might be onto something. I can't think of any centaurs with what I would call women's names or described as women.



Kelly Kapaoski - Dec 14, 2004 10:53 am (#1062 of 2486)
a bunch of sexists who were attacked by a bigot......now that will make you think



Paulus Maximus - Dec 14, 2004 11:26 am (#1063 of 2486)
"My spin on the remark of Harry approaching manhood was in recognition of how far his powers have grown. I imagine that centaurs, being magical themselves, could perceive Harry's power maturity."

And Hermione's powers are well beyond Harry's, so again, if Harry was approaching manhood, Hermione was well into womanhood.



mooncalf - Dec 14, 2004 11:32 am (#1064 of 2486)
Are they? I don't think that Hermione would consider herself more powerful than Harry.



Paulus Maximus - Dec 14, 2004 11:33 am (#1065 of 2486)
Maybe not, but she knows about twice as many spells...

You don't have to consider yourself more powerful than someone to BE more powerful than him. DD does not consider himself more powerful than LV, but nobody doubts that he is...



mooncalf - Dec 14, 2004 11:40 am (#1066 of 2486)
Very true, Paulus. Hermoine certainly knows more, but I still think that Harry has more potential, and is improving, in his own way, faster than Hermoine.



scoop2172000 - Dec 14, 2004 1:23 pm (#1067 of 2486)
Hermione herself acknowledges that Harry is far better at Defense Against the Dark Arts than she is. Too, a reason she and Ron asked him to teach them (and the others who became Dumbledore's Army) is because of all the remarkable progress he made in preparing for the Tri Wizard Tournament tasks.

And let's not forget her speech to him in PS/SS as he prepared to proceed to where the Stone was hidden. I don't have the book with me, but to paraphrase the answer, she remarked she wasn't better than he was -- that she was all "books and cleverness."



Muggle Doctor - Dec 14, 2004 2:38 pm (#1068 of 2486)
...and that there were more important things, in which he was clearly superior.



MickeyCee3948 - Dec 14, 2004 2:52 pm (#1069 of 2486)
Hermione's only fault is that she thinks too much. Granted Harry could occasionally do with thinking before he acts but in Hermione's case one of these days it could be costly to her. In the heat of battle your reactions must be immediate and come without hesitation. She was getting a lot better in the MOM battle but still needs some more tutoring from Harry.

Mikie



Paulus Maximus - Dec 14, 2004 2:59 pm (#1070 of 2486)
Hermione was quite emotional when she said that there were more important things than books and cleverness, so I'm not entirely sure that she was right about that...



Muggle Doctor - Dec 14, 2004 5:21 pm (#1071 of 2486)
Hermione has a better grasp of when and where to fight, and why (i.e. why that particular time and place).

Harry is better at who and how.



MickeyCee3948 - Dec 14, 2004 6:03 pm (#1072 of 2486)
Yeah, they compliment each other very well!!!!

Mikie



Solitaire - Dec 14, 2004 8:11 pm (#1073 of 2486)
I agree, Mikie. In addition to bringing broad knowledge to the table, Hermione gives Harry stability and focus. He, in turn, helps her see possibilities, get past her fears, and find her "inner Gryffindor." That is why they make an awesome team!

Solitaire



legolas - Dec 15, 2004 5:14 pm (#1074 of 2486)
Just to quickly go back to the "Approaching Manhood" comments a couple of posts earlier. Harry met the centaurs in first year. They then saw him 4 years later. This meant that they could see that he had grown/matured somewhat. They did not have the same benchmark for Hermione.



sara rau - Dec 16, 2004 7:08 am (#1075 of 2486)
Does anyone know what town Hermione lives in? ~*~sr~*~



Kelly Kapaoski - Dec 17, 2004 4:55 am (#1076 of 2486)
the books do not say what her home town is



Gerald Costales - Dec 17, 2004 6:43 am (#1077 of 2486)
The only time that we see Hermione boarding the Hogwarts Express is after the Quidditch World Cup. I would assume that the students who board at Platform 9 3/4 would live in London, near London, or the Southern part of the UK.

A train usually makes several stops, so where and when Hermione boards the Hogwarts Express would give us a clue to what region of the UK that Hermione lived in.

But, we know that the Sorting Ceremonies took place shortly after the Hogwarts Express arrived. And there is no hint of any other form of transportation bringing students to Hogsmead. Even students that can Apparate, like Fred & George, don't just Apparate to Hogsmead. And even students from Ireland like Seamus Finnigan, all appear to arrive at the seem time and by the same train.

The only time we see two students not arrive by the Hogwarts Express is when Harry and Ron flew to Hogwarts in the Blue Ford Anglia. So, the Hogwarts Express possibly isn't the only method for students to arrive at Hogwarts.

But, if I were to guess where Hermione's hometown was, I would guess London. Hermione just seems to be a city girl and not a country girl like Ginny. I don't picture Hermione dirting her hands in the garden. So, I imagine Hermione living in a townhouse in the more affluent part of London. (Hermione returned early from a ski trip to France once. Both the ski trip and France suggest that the Grangers aren't middle class (poor) like the Weasleys.) Also, I assumed that the Grangers got to the Leaky Cauldron and then to Diagon Alley by cab or foot from their home in London. And Diagon Alley is in London isn't it.

Now I'll wait for people to give their guess. ;-) GC

PS Or throw dungbombs at my guess. Taking cover from a volley of dungbombs. ;-) GC



The One - Dec 17, 2004 6:54 am (#1078 of 2486)
I have also imagined Hermione to be from higher middle class/lower upper class London or something like that.

Canon does not say so by any means, but that is my impression anyway.



scoop2172000 - Dec 17, 2004 7:29 am (#1079 of 2486)
I agree with Gerald that the Hogwarts Express must make several stops along the way from London to Scotland. I know, I know, canon doesn't specify Hogwarts is in Scotland, but clues seem to point that way.

If the train ran without any stops between London and Hogwarts, it would mean that all the students taking the train would have to travel to London. For some, that would involve traveling clear across the country. Just doesn't make sense.

I think Hermione lives near London, because in CoS, her parents accompanied her on her shopping trip to Diagon Alley. But they didn't stay the night at the Leaky Cauldron. They left soon after having a drink with Arthur Weasley. That seems to indicate her folks took an afternoon off rather than making an overnight trip.



sara rau - Dec 17, 2004 7:52 am (#1080 of 2486)
It does make sense that she would live in London, given Gerald explaination and all. I just wasn't sure if there was something i had missed something. thanks guys!!



Solitaire - Dec 17, 2004 8:17 am (#1081 of 2486)
Do the Weasleys live in London? They board at Platform 9 3/4. So does Harry.



TomProffitt - Dec 17, 2004 8:36 am (#1082 of 2486)
There is reason to assume that the Weasleys live in Devon. There is no hard canon evidence for this, only the presence of the River Otter. Ottery St Mary is on this river and it is presumed that Ottery St Catchpole would be as well. We can then assume that the Hogwarts express does not go further south or west from London.

EDIT: Harry lives in Surrey which is (by American terminology) more or less a suburb of London.



wickedweasley - Dec 17, 2004 8:48 am (#1083 of 2486)
Ahhh! I am at work so this may be movie contamination creeping in but in PoA, when the Dementors stop and board the Hogwarts Express, Ron or Hermione comments "why are we stopping?" and "We can't be there already?"

They do not state at a station or stop, but seem to indicate they do not stop until they are there. I always assumed this meant Hogwarts. It is also true with the many magical means at their disposal travelling across country is not necessarily the same inconvenience it would be to a muggle.



Solitaire - Dec 17, 2004 9:06 am (#1084 of 2486)
Since the Hogwarts Express is a magical train, is it possible that it does not necessarily operate on regular "train protocol"? The train obviously doesn't use a regular track or boarding platform, because the Muggles don't have a clue, and the train itself can't be seen until the kids go through the barrier.

Remember how surprised the kids were that the train began to slow and then stop when the Dementor came aboard? "D'you think we've broken down? Hermione was so curious that she was going to go and ask the driver what was happening--even before the Dementor appeared. If they were accustomed to the train stopping en route, they wouldn't have given it a second thought. But their reactions make me think that the train does not stop between Hogwarts and Platform 9 3/4.

At the end of OotP--just as the train was pulling into King's Cross--"Harry thought he had never wanted to leave it less. He even wondered fleetingly what would happen if he simply refused to get off, but remained stubbornly sitting there until the first of September, when it would take him back to Hogwarts." I've always had the idea that the train is some sort of "magical portal" to Hogwarts and really is not used at any other time or for any other purpose. I think the Hogwarts Express may have its own M.O., just as the Knight Bus seems to do.

I suppose this really should go on the Hogwarts Express thread ... but my point is that just because kids board it in London doesn't necessarily mean they live there.

Solitaire

edit: Wicked Weasley, you are correct, not "contaminated." I checked the book (see above).



Dr Filibuster - Dec 17, 2004 11:28 am (#1085 of 2486)
An express train is a train that is travelling from A to B without any other stops. You get to the final destination quicker than if there were lots of stops along the way.

The "Hogwarts Express" would go straight from London to Hogwarts.

I agree, it doesn't make sense to catch the train at King's Cross if you live nearer to the school than to London, but hey, Wizards aren't known for their grasp of logic.

Perhaps we all think Hermione is posh and from London because of movie contamination? But add me to the list of people who think she's a middle class girl from the home counties. We've certainly not heard anything to dispute this.

PS: The home counties are the counties that surround London. Also, didn't JKR say something about her parents being "middle class dentists" when explaining why Hermione has her name?



wolfgrl - Dec 17, 2004 1:08 pm (#1086 of 2486)
Before I say this I would like to say I have absolutly no backing for any of it.

I always had the feeling that riding the Hogwarts express was just part of the experience of going to school. Something that would be a shared memory for all of Hogwarts students. Something to even the playing field a bit. Harry and Ron got in trouble for "showing off" by arriving by car. If student could arrive at Hogwarts however there parents saw fit, I could easily see Malfoy bragging that his dad got special permission to make a port key to bring him to school. Or something else that would set him apart. Though this would be more important for first years, I can see students (or their parents) developing more and more bizare ways to arrive at Hogwarts.

So, I don't think that the train leaving from London necessarily shows that Hermione lives in London.



Prefect Marcus - Dec 17, 2004 2:35 pm (#1087 of 2486)
Edited by Dec 17, 2004 1:36 pm
I've started a discussion thread on the Hogwarts Express and the reasons behind it. See you over there. :-)



Solitaire - Dec 17, 2004 6:26 pm (#1088 of 2486)
Wolfgrl, you make perfect sense to me.



Hollywand - Dec 17, 2004 9:00 pm (#1089 of 2486)
Hermione's parents are both dentists, so perhaps the Grangers live in a rather well-to-do neighborhood of North London such as Pinner, or Hatch End, or Spinners End.



Ludicrous Patents Office - Dec 18, 2004 5:44 pm (#1090 of 2486)
Just one more reason for Jo to do the Harry Potter Encyclopedia after the books are done. Some many wonderful things to find out about! LPO



Kerrie-Louise - Dec 20, 2004 1:38 am (#1091 of 2486)
We know that the Weesley's must live a fair distance from London. Seeing as the Hogwarts Express travels from London to presumably Scotland in a fairly short space of time (11am until dark)and the car can also fly at about the same speed as the train travels. In CoS, when the Weesleys rescue Harry it is dark but he hadn't gotten into his PJ's. they arrive at the Weesley's home at dawn or there about. They must live quite a distance from London at any rate and yet Ron still catches the train. I think that all students must therefore catch the train to get to Hogwarts! hope that made sense!



Robert Dierken - Dec 26, 2004 7:46 pm (#1092 of 2486)
Does anyone know a quote that indicates how old a student has to be to no longer be underage? If it is at 16, Hermione is no longer underage at the confrontation with the Dursleys in King's Cross.



Weeny Owl - Dec 26, 2004 10:02 pm (#1093 of 2486)
I'm pretty sure it's 17 because of Fred and George Apparating in Grimmauld Place and doing magic in the kitchen which annoyed the heck out of Molly.

If what JKR said is true, Hermione is now 16 and will be 17 the first month of sixth year, and would then be a legal adult.



Julia. - Dec 26, 2004 10:06 pm (#1094 of 2486)
Here it is Robert. Wizards come of age at 17, not 16.

Why 7 and what is the contour that you want to complete?
JKR: Well 7 is for several reasons, but I suppose the main one, I was 7 years at my secondary school. That’s kind of standard in England. 7 is also a magical number. I wanted him to come of age at 17. It just seems a good number for a wizard to come of age. So that meant 7 books, that meant 7 years in his life. Also, it will take 7 books to get Harry to the point where he has to face, um I can’t say. But in Book 7, you know, there’s a big climax coming here and it will take that many books to get him there.

I added the bold.



Robert Dierken - Dec 28, 2004 7:23 pm (#1095 of 2486)
Thanks, Julia.



Gerald Costales - Dec 31, 2004 10:00 am (#1096 of 2486)
Quick note: Both Hermione's and Krum's wands have a similar core, Dragon heartstring. (Probably not from the same Dragon or same type of Dragon. Unlike Harry's and Voldermort's, Phoenix tail feather wand cores, that both come from Fawkes.)

Probably not important, but interesting. Happy New Year. Everyone. ;-) GC

PS Cedric and Ron both have Unicorn hair wand cores. Hope Ron doesn't suffer the same fate as Cedric. We better hope the Unicorn hairs for both their wand cores didn't come from the same Unicorn! Better duck Ron, if they did. :-( GC



Solitaire - Dec 31, 2004 10:17 am (#1097 of 2486)
It would be interesting if Hermione's and Krum's wands did share a heartstring from the same dragon. I wonder if the fact that both have dragon heartstring as their wand cores will somehow be significant.

I, too, worry about Ron's wand with the Unicorn tail hair. I hope it was not from the same Unicorn as Cedric's. I wonder ... could either of those tail hairs be from one of the Unicorns Quirrell/Mort killed to drink their blood? Just a scary thought ...

Solitaire



Robert Dierken - Dec 31, 2004 7:34 pm (#1098 of 2486)
Only students who are of age -- that is to say, seventeen years or older -- will be allowed to put forward their names for consideration. (GoF, Chapter 12, The Tri-Wizard Tournament)

Ah-ha, found a quote from the book about this.



KWeldon - Jan 3, 2005 5:10 pm (#1099 of 2486)
Wow, so Hermione's going to start off this book apparating! You know she will master it quickly...



Ludicrous Patents Office - Jan 3, 2005 5:33 pm (#1100 of 2486)
KWeldon I am sure she will master it quicker than the Twins. Won't that make Ron and Harry envious! LPO

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Post  Mona Fri May 06, 2011 9:52 am

KWeldon - Jan 3, 2005 6:06 pm (#1101 of 2486)
It would certainly make me envious. Given that she can't do it on Hogwarts grounds, I suppose we won't see her do it very often, but I'll predict right now that her ability to apparate will come in handy for Harry at some point in HP6.



Kelly Kapaoski - Jan 3, 2005 8:45 pm (#1102 of 2486)
we will probably see her apperate during Hogsmede weekends if she figures out how to do it.



Muggle Doctor - Jan 4, 2005 2:22 pm (#1103 of 2486)
She won't start it apparating, because she doesn't turn 17 until well into the first term.

As far as the Weasley Terrors are concerned, I think they would have learned to do it just as fast as Hermione would. Remember that they are actually quite competent wizards (even if they didn't sit their NEWTS or do well in their OWLS), especially in practical terms, and (much like Neville in the DA lessons) they will learn something very, very swiftly if there's something in it for them.

Apparating is a case in point - seeing as it multiplies their capacity for mischief by some obscenely high figure, I feel they were very quick on the uptake.



KWeldon - Jan 4, 2005 2:42 pm (#1104 of 2486)
I thought Hermione's birthday was in September, and their term starts on Sept. 1? JKR already established that she was almost 12 in the first book, so she has to be almost 17 starting this book.



Solitaire - Jan 4, 2005 2:56 pm (#1105 of 2486)
Hermione will probably be able to begin apparating over Christmas holidays. Perhaps she will either go home or off campus for vacation, since she can't practice if she is hanging out at Hogwarts. Then again, perhaps all of our kids will head off campus to Order headquarters for the holidays.

Solitaire



Steve Newton - Jan 4, 2005 3:06 pm (#1106 of 2486)
I think that with a war on off campus trips will be kept to a minimum. Hermione might also be a special target.



MickeyCee3948 - Jan 4, 2005 3:46 pm (#1107 of 2486)
I agree there Steve Newton, she does need to start watching her back. Hope she started this summer.

Mikie



Ludicrous Patents Office - Jan 4, 2005 7:03 pm (#1108 of 2486)
Draco has made several references to Hermione. I think she is a target for the Malfoy's LPO



Solitaire - Jan 4, 2005 10:11 pm (#1109 of 2486)
That's true. I believe Hermione is being set up as a target of the Mafoys. Draco hates her and has been openly hoping for her demise since CoS. With his father's secret life exposed, he now has more reason than ever to hate her.

Hermione has been gradually been breaking away from her Muggle family for a few years now. I suppose it is inevitable in such a situation; she is simply becoming immersed in the cares and concerns of the magical world to which she belongs. Lily appears to have broken away from her family fairly early, too ... although we do not know the circumstances which caused it and whether the breach occurred before or subsequent to her parents' death(s).

One down side of the DA 6 performing so well in the Battle in the DoM is that those six kids may now be perceived as genuine future threats to the DEs and all that they hold dear. These are kids who are green, it's true ... but they all managed to acquit themselves admirably and come out alive against 12 DEs. That's 2 DEs per kid. The DEs may decide they don't want to wait around for MORE proficiency before a rematch.

You know, there's another reason for Lucius to be mad at Draco. Muggle-born Hermione, the two youngest Weasleys, Potter, Frank Longbottom's son, the Quibbler publisher's daughter--this motley, inexperienced group of kids held off the DEs till the Order arrived, and they kept Voldemort from getting what he wanted. They thwarted Lucius and helped land him in Azkaban. Hm ... tell me again how Draco has distinguished himself lately?

Solitaire



TwinklingBlueEyes - Jan 5, 2005 4:54 am (#1110 of 2486)
"Hm ... tell me again how Draco has distinguished himself lately?"

Hm, he makes a very amusing bouncing ferret?



Gerald Costales - Jan 5, 2005 6:18 am (#1111 of 2486)
"Hm ... tell me again how Draco has distinguished himself lately?"

Draco was also an excellent giant slug along with Crabbe & Goyle.

Draco, the Junior Crabbe, & Junior Goyle father's have been outed as DE's. You can bet these Junior DE's will be gunning for some of the DA including Hermione when given the chance.

All the more reason to keep the DA going. The original DA & those new students who would certainly want to join because Voldermort is back need to be prepared for anything.

Like someone said in another thread. I wouldn't put it past a DE to go after children including infants. Voldermort tried to kill Harry and failed. (Or we wouldn't have had such an excellent book series.)

DA to Junior DE's (Draco, Crabbe, Goyle, Pansy, Millicent, etc.) bring it on! We're ready to rumble! (Not supporting school violence. But the DA kids have a right to defend themselves!) ;-) GC



KWeldon - Jan 5, 2005 7:15 am (#1112 of 2486)
We're ready to rumble! (Not supporting school violence. But the DA kids have a right to defend themselves!)

Bring. It. On.



Steve Newton - Jan 5, 2005 7:18 am (#1113 of 2486)
Solitaire says "those six kids may now be perceived as genuine future threats to the DEs."

I'd bet on it. They may have been lucky but they also knew what they were doing. They are only going to get stronger and more of a threat to the DEs. Unless they are dealt with, of course.

When the word gets out that 6 kids held off a dozen DEs I don't think that it will help with DE recruiting committee in its efforts.



Solitaire - Jan 5, 2005 8:15 am (#1114 of 2486)
Oh, dear! Please forgive me ... how could I have ever forgotten the slug and ferret incidents? Those are truly noteworthy ... um ... accomplishments.

Gerald, of course you are right. The Nibblers are going to be gunning for the six kids in the Ministry battle now more than ever, and Hermione--as the Muggle-born--will be right behind Harry, or maybe even in front of him. Unfortunately for the other six on the train, well ... I fear they may have catapulted themselves right into the Nibblers' cross-hairs, as well (although I suppose there is the chance that the Nibblers may not realize who hit them). Things should be getting mighty interesting, now that we have at least 12 who have taken on the Nibblers in one way or another. Somehow, I see taking on Draco & Co. as a "bonding experience," don't you?

Solitaire



Muggle Doctor - Jan 5, 2005 6:53 pm (#1115 of 2486)
There are too many DA's for the DN's to take them ALL out simultaneously. If one DA falls, things will start happening to DNs, and even Snape as their head of house will not be able to protect them.

Nobody can sit there with a straight face and tell me that the word of what happened on the train at the end of OoP AND GoF did not get out to the school community at large. The clash in Umbridge's office is another matter, but I'm betting that will soon become common knowledge too.

Slytherins who were considering which side to come down on now know that Malfoy and co have been handled very badly on multiple occasions.

Those who have thus far gone with the DNs simply to be on the winning side (and not because they and their families are evil little ****s) will now realise who the winners are likely to be (at least within the school) and will either stay out of the fight or change allegiance.

The undecided Slytherins who (hypothetically) are genuinely trying to make up their minds which side right lies on will feel a good deal happier about siding with Gryffindor/Ravenclaw/Hufflepuff if they know that they have friends who will be able to defend them if the DN's try to settle scores after the final outcome.

At the end of the day, it is not in the nature of Slytherins to take risks with little hope of personal gain. That is what IMHO truly separates them from Gryffindors at the opposite end. A Gryffindor will happily take a greater risk for lesser reward up-front (okay, so Harry's reward at the end of CoS was Ginny's life, but you get my meaning). Sooner or later, those Slytherins who are not openly allied with Draco and co (i.e. whose parents or close relatives are not open Voldemort supporters) will see Draco & co (and perhaps the entire Lord Voldemort thing) as a bad investment. They will pull out, and LV will fall.

All this IMHO is a direct result of the two train battles (certainly the second), the Umbridge office clash and the MoM battle. Most of that in turn is a result of the existence of the DA, and the DA would not have existed without the persuasive efforts of the lovely Miss Granger. So the ramifications of her actions could well be the good guys winning the war.

(Had to make it relevant to Hermione somehow - this is her thread after all).



Ludicrous Patents Office - Jan 5, 2005 7:29 pm (#1116 of 2486)
I wonder if Lucius knows about how Draco performed in Umbridge's office. He did not come off very well there. Draco tends to blame everything on someone else. I would not be surprised if he is used by his father to get at the Trio. Especially Hermione. The DE know Voldemort wants to deal with Harry himself. LPO



Solitaire - Jan 5, 2005 7:29 pm (#1117 of 2486)
The thing about the DoM battle is this: How will the Wizarding community at large find out about the important details about it? I honestly don't see the 6 DA kids blabbing it all over town. They may relive their exploits among themselves and their families, but I'd be surprised if they really talked it up and tooted their own horns. At least, Harry never has in the past, and I suspect they will kind of follow his lead.

The DEs certainly are not going to want it known that their 12 top operatives were prevented from getting the Prophecy by 6 kids under the age of 16. How humiliating! And are they really going to want to admit that the "Muggle-loving Dumbledore" and a rag-tag group of Order members were responsible for incarcerating all but Bella and Voldemort?

Finally, I really don't see the Ministry coming clean, either, about all of the down and dirty details of the battle--and who was involved. It would only serve to make them look even more ineffectual and incompetent than they already do ... if that's possible.

Unless it is a situation like Dumbledore described to Harry at the end of the PS/SS--"What happened down in the dungeons between you and Professor Quirrell is a complete secret, so, naturally, the whole school knows"--and word "just sort of leaked out," I don't know how everyone will learn the crucial details. Of course, I could be wrong ...

Solitaire



Ludicrous Patents Office - Jan 5, 2005 7:33 pm (#1118 of 2486)
Solitaire we cross posted! I agree, I don't the the general population will know about the MOM battle, nor do they probably care. They will be to concerned for themselves. The important thing is Voldemort and his Death Eaters know. Hermione is Muggle born and close to Harry. That makes her an excellent target. LPO



Julia. - Jan 5, 2005 9:03 pm (#1119 of 2486)
I agree with you both Solitaire and LPO. The ministry won't have to come clean about it. Although I'm not sure how free the six will be about talking themselves up all over town, but I'm pretty sure they'll at least want the truth out there. What do you suppose the chances are that they'll be another Rita Skeeter exclusive in the Quibbler?



Solitaire - Jan 6, 2005 12:26 am (#1120 of 2486)
Julia, if the information does leak out there, I think it will have to come from Rita. I'm not sure about its appearing in the Quibbler, however, only because Rita will need the galleons.

I remember Luna saying that her dad didn't pay people who wrote for the Quibbler; those who write do it for the honor of appearing in print. This probably means it's been a while since Rita had a paycheck, so she will want to make it a paying proposition.

If Fudge is indeed sacked, however, The Daily Prophet may be more apt to print real news and not just ministry-released junk. Just a guess ...

Solitaire



Eric Bailey - Jan 6, 2005 3:38 am (#1121 of 2486)
Well, apparently Malfoy was able to find out who put his father in jail, so chances are it's gotten out just like everything else does. Maybe one of the DEs, in a rage, was quoted in the papers: "And we'd have gotten away with it, too, if it hadn't have been for those meddling teenagers!".

Plus, beating up Malfoy and the Goon Squad probably got some attention. First, there would have been students knowing about Ginny and Luna keeping people away from Umbridge's office, then the noise the Goon Squad would have made (Malfoy and company aren't known for their stealth, and were probably loudly crowing about what they were doing). We know there had to be some witnesses to that, because that's how Neville got involved. Then, there would have been a lot of noise when the Goon Squad got beaten up, with Malfoy running in the hallways with bats on his face. Then, the Sextet disappears, Umbridge is brought back in a totally freaked state, and the news about the Ministry battle comes in. Put two and two together, and the school has figured it out.

Or, since Malfoy's not the brightest bulb in the marquee, HE probably let everybody know, while whining about it. The NERVE of those inferiors to flout his authority and overcome their betters... And how did they do it unarmed, yet?!! And then going and taking on a dozen of the best Death Eaters, including his father... How DARE they?!! Well, first, that crazy Ravenclaw girl kicked Crabbe, here, in the groin! I mean, really! With a lineage dating back to the Pharaohs, and she's wearing MUGGLE boots...? Doc Something or other... Oh, quit blubbering Crabbe... What about MY pain and humiliation, here? That bat bogey hex was traumatic!



Gerald Costales - Jan 6, 2005 7:11 am (#1122 of 2486)
Off topic: I'd think that Harry & Hermione would make a better couple. But, alas I don't think it will be. (Need to keep an eye out for the "Ship" monitors. I really hate posting on the "Ship" thread.)

The idea of Herimone apparating is intriguing. Hermione wouldn't have to kip magical potion's ingredients from Snape's stores. Think of the Magic that Hermione could do with more and better ingredients!

Besides the Nibblers, Hermione better check her back for Marietta. (This could hopefully lead to a Harry vs Draco type rivalry.) Got to keep an eye out for those silent types like Marietta. When push comes to shove, anything could happen. Just think Neville and how he performed in the MoM. Neville's best magic was in defending others and fighting for his life. (And Neville did it all with his father's wand. Just think what Neville will do with his OWN wand!)

Revenge is a great movitator. And Marietta would certainly have an axe to grind with Hermione. ;-) GC

PS Nice look Marietta! Are Purple Pimples in season? What a unique fashion statement! You must tell me where you get your make-up ideas! And I thought Black lipstick and Blood Red nail polish was styling! Can you make your pimples spell anything but "SNEAK"? ;-) GC

PPS I'm not evil, I just post that way. Where's the Marietta E thread? ;-) GC



Solitaire - Jan 6, 2005 8:31 am (#1123 of 2486)
Gerald, the Marietta thread has been closed ... I think they prefer we not really "go there" again.



Prefect Marcus - Jan 6, 2005 10:03 am (#1124 of 2486)
I don't see the average wizard on the street much caring about the DoM battle, but the people who are interested will know. Most of the attention will be payed to Harry, as in "Harry Potter and five of his closest friends..."

No, I really don't think Hermione, Ron, Luna, or anyone else has to watch their back because of Voldemort. Voldemort has limited resources. The MoM has limited resources. If Voldemort shows he is going after the friends of Harry Potter, then the MoM will be watching, and he'll get caught.

It is the same reason that I have my doubts about his making a raid on Askaban prison to free a bunch of screw-ups masquerading as DeathEaters. He is likely to lose more in the attack than he would gain.

Marcus



Weeny Owl - Jan 6, 2005 10:03 am (#1125 of 2486)
Well, apparently Malfoy was able to find out who put his father in jail, so chances are it's gotten out just like everything else does.

The only one responsible for putting Malfoy's father in Azkaban is Malfoy's father himself, although I realize he will blame anyone and everyone else.

I de agree that Hermione is going to need to be even more cautious than ever, but she isn't exactly the type to keep below the radar.



Potions Mistress - Jan 6, 2005 2:29 pm (#1126 of 2486)
Eric, I really liked what you said about Malfoy whining (in place of a more "forceful" word) about how the sextet just didn't know their place in the hierarchy of the WW--especially that Mudblood Granger. I'm of the opinion that if the DE's aren't gunning for her, Malfoy and his cronies most certainly will be.

~pm



Margenne - Jan 6, 2005 2:30 pm (#1127 of 2486)
I believe that Hermione will need to be cautious this coming year. The Nibblers will more than likely be doing all they can to disable the DA before the real war begins. They’re a real threat now. Treachery from within, after all. Their parents are certainly incapable of any action at the moment. And Hermione’s the one who came up with the idea of the DA. I think that will be circulated around the school, especially if the DA continues. But I think she’s capable of flying under the radar when necessary; remember the Polyjuice Potion, and the entire process of getting the DA started.

Will Voldy attempt a raid to free the unlucky DE’s? I’m with Prefect Marcus on this one. He can’t afford that move as yet; he’ll need to lay low after such a fight as went on in the DoM. He’ll need to work with whomever he’s got left right now. (Is Bella really the only one left right now? And Goyle Sr.?) Plus it’s more Voldy’s style to let the incarcerated DE’s languish in Azkaban for a while. He’s not one to suffer fools. I do think he’ll need them later, though. I can’t see his main core of DE’s (Lucius, Avery and Rodolphus, especially) completely out of the mix after only one battle.

As to Hermione apparating? Don’t forget that apparating and disapparating inside Hogwarts is impossible. And who would she be able to practice with that’s qualified enough to make sure she doesn’t splinch (is that the term?) herself or something? (Even though our Hermione is “the brightest witch of her age”.) That’s major magic. I’m not sure any of the Professors would condone such a thing yet, or even have the time to teach any of the students if they did.



Muggle Doctor - Jan 6, 2005 2:34 pm (#1128 of 2486)
This is really developing into something that is better put on another thread. However, a closing point: I believe it will be like "what happened is a secret, so everybody knows" - primarily because the Aurors (not ones in the OOP) DID turn up at the end, and would probably have been involved enough in the mopping up to get a very good picture of what had happened.

By the time the injured combatants were transported to Hogwarts or St Mungo's, Harry had already been portkeyed back to Dumbledore's office, so we didn't witness any of that. Somebody had to arrange for their transportation, and at least some of the wounded would have needed an individual escort. Possibly the other Order members helped in this, but I think the Aurors would have had to do some of it. And then of course there is the transfer of the prisoners to Azkaban.

And the Aurors have - if not family - then friends to whom they can talk. Can you imagine witnessing something like that, even just the tail end, and NOT saying to everyone "I was present at the battle that heralded the return of H.W.M.N.B.N.?"

Sure, Dumbledore had just ended all ACTIVE opposition, but the soldiers among us will probably agree with me that the battle isn't really over until the prisoners have been 'processed' and the area secured, which the Aurors would have had a part in, as stated above.



Weeny Owl - Jan 6, 2005 3:58 pm (#1129 of 2486)
I don't believe the Death Eaters will care too much about Hermione or the other DA members who were in the Department of Mysteries, but I do believe that Draco and Company will do anything they can to cause problems with those six, even more problems than they've tried to cause in the past.

I'm not sure how Crabbe, Goyle, and Nott feel since we never hear from theme, but Draco's privileged position has been severely compromised, and he will probably want to cause as much harm as he can instead of just calling people names. Using names such as Potty, Weasel King, the Mudblood, etc. aren't going to give him much satisfaction, after all.



Gerald Costales - Jan 6, 2005 4:26 pm (#1130 of 2486)
"As to Hermione apparating? Don’t forget that apparating and disapparating inside Hogwarts is impossible. And who would she be able to practice with that’s qualified enough to make sure she doesn’t splinch (is that the term?) herself or something? (Even though our Hermione is “the brightest witch of her age”.) That’s major magic. I’m not sure any of the Professors would condone such a thing yet, or even have the time to teach any of the students if they did." Margenne

Yes, I know that Hermione can't apparate or disaparate inside Hogwarts. But, she could apparate and disaparate in Hogsmead. And a certain Fred and George W's could teach Hermione the basics of apparating and disaparating.

Both Fred and George would be willing to train Hermione in apparating and disapparating on the condition that Hermione use these abilities in a tight situation or to save herself or someone else. They'd probably volunteer their training even if not asked. Remember Harry was attacked by dementors in Little Whinging, last book. And you never know how bold or brazen the Death Eaters or Nibblers could become.

And Hermione has been practicing "major magic" since the Polyjuice potion she brewed in CoS. Brewing a Polyjuice potion wouldn't be considered beginning magic would it. And I am safe in saying it's certainly advanced magic if not major magic. There was the Jinxed DA parchment (that caused Marietta's face to be speckled in purple pimples) and the Protean Coin in GoF, again certainly advanced magic. And Hermione was allowed to have a "Time Turner" in PoA.

I daresay brewing a Polyjuice potion, Jinxing the DA's parchment, and making a Protean coin was all at least advanced magic. And none of this magic was done with a professor's instruction, supervision, or approval. How Hermione used the "Time Turner" was improper, even though Dumbledore approved. Hermione isn't a rule breaker per say. But if need Hermione is more than willing to do what must be done proper or improper. ;-) GC



Ludicrous Patents Office - Jan 6, 2005 5:35 pm (#1131 of 2486)
I thought since the Ministry overseas the test they would have people to train you. It would be like a drivers ed course. Hermione isn't the only Muggle with no wizarding heritage. I'm sure there is something set up to teach apartation. Molly, Arthur, Remus, Moody, Tonks and even Dung would probably we willing to teach her. I'm not sure Hermione's would allow herself to learn from Fred, George or Dung. It might offend her sensibilities! LPO



Hollywand - Jan 6, 2005 8:35 pm (#1132 of 2486)
Maybe they show pre-Appartating teens those awful "You and your friends could be Splinched" movies to scare them into being responsible! ;-)

I would think Miss Granger would want to learn from a trusted professor such as Minerva.



Ludicrous Patents Office - Jan 6, 2005 8:37 pm (#1133 of 2486)
LOL Hollywand. I think you are right, Minerva is the best teacher for Hermione. LPO



KWeldon - Jan 7, 2005 6:16 am (#1134 of 2486)
I think this brings up two interesting questions. Who is responsible for teaching apparating--Hogwarts or MOM? And, if it's Hogwarts, how do they do it with the restrictions?

Regardless, I can't see Hermione waiting too long after her birthday to begin/complete her apparating training.



Gerald Costales - Jan 7, 2005 7:02 am (#1135 of 2486)
"Maybe they show pre-Appartating teens those awful "You and your friends could be Splinched" movies to scare them into being responsible! ;-)" Hollywand

LOL - Teen driving is a problem in the Muggle world. And one would think Wizard Teens have similar if not greater concerns (duck here comes Fred & George). We know Firewhiskey exists. And Wizard Teens don't get Butterbeer or mead when they "paartee". After their OWL's Seamus and some other students wanted to buy some Firewhiskey to celebrate. (The one truly kid unfriendly scene in the whole Series. I'm a non-drinker myself. So, I'm biased.) "Don't drink and Apparate!" Just think of Wizard Teens drunk and apparating. Ouch. Thankfully Wizards are thick skinned.

The one thing about Hermione is that when faced with a problem Hermione puts a great deal more effort into solving that problem than her studies. Remember Hermione prepping Hagrid in his defense of Buckbeak. Hermione let her studies slip to help solve that problem which whining Draco had gotten Buckbeak and Hagrid in. (Draco was a giant slug even before the end of the last book.) And Hermione gets what she wants even if it means not getting advise from Adults.

Hermione didn't get Adult advice when she brewed the Polyjuice potion. In fact the Trio secretly had Lockhart sign a note to get into the Restricted Section of the Library. And the Trio had to kip a Boomslang skin from Snape to brew it.

Hermione before going on Christmas break sent Harry again to the Restricted Section of the Library to research Flamel. (Probably Movie Contamination. But, certainly in character for Hermione.)

When faced with not being prepared properly for her OWL in DADA by Umbridge, Hermione with Ron convinced Harry to head the DA. The actual founder of the DA is Hermione. Harry needed to be pushed to head and train the DA's members in DADA. (And thankfully so.)

Also that Jinxed DA parchment was created by Hermione without Adult advise. Did anyone picture Hermione talking with Prof. MacGonagall and asking advise in forming the DA!

Enter Prof. McGonagall's office:

Hermione: " Prof. McGonagall, isn't it dreadful how Umbridge is failing to teach us properly! (Looking about the office quickly and whispers.) I'm asking your advice on forming a secret DADA club. What do you think?"

McGonagall: (Leaning closer to Hermione and in a whisper.) "Well, Umbridge is certain an extremely poor teacher. I know I shouldn't be telling you this Hermione. (In normal voice.) But, yes form the club and come to me for any other advise you may need! Fifty secret points for Gryffindor! (Hits fist on desktop.) (Walking around desk to talk with Hermione.) (Again, in a whisper.) Hermione you might think to Jinx your membership list. I'll tell what to do with the parchment to Jinx it. You are certain an extremely talented young Witch!" (Smiles broadly.) (McGonagall places a hand upon Hermione's shoulder and they walk to the door.)"

Exit office.

I love Hermione and all but, Hermione is best your friend and not your enemy. (Just asked pimple-faced Marietta.) ;-) GC

PS Solitare you're right about the Marietta thread, but I do miss it so. *wink* (Exits Lexicon Forum.) ;-) GC



Eponine - Jan 7, 2005 8:42 am (#1136 of 2486)
Gerald, lol on the scene between Hermione and McGonagall.

I do agree that when Hermione is determined to do something, it's best to just get out of her way and let her do it.



Auror Tonks - Jan 7, 2005 11:38 am (#1137 of 2486)
think they have to take the final test sometime during the summer vacation because in OoP Fred and George passed and they were apparating all the time, even to go down stairs



John Bumbledore - Jan 7, 2005 11:53 am (#1138 of 2486)

Fred and George had to wait.
Their birthday is April 1. So they may have studied and practiced from then until June to pass.
Hermione and any other 17 year olds at Hogwarts may get to study and practice in Hogsmead.

If it is analogous to muggle driving, lessons may be given by a licensed parent. Schools may also provide a class with book studies.



wwtMask - Jan 7, 2005 11:55 am (#1139 of 2486)
Hermione is definitely a better friend than enemy. Not even counting her skills as a witch, she's built a reputation that's almost beyond reproach. It would be very easy for her to abuse that, much as Tom Riddle did.

An apparating Hermione would be fun, but she would probably not be able to learn to do so until the Christmas holidays at earliest. I have no doubt she'll be able to learn to apparate in no time at all.



John Bumbledore - Jan 7, 2005 3:16 pm (#1140 of 2486)

Hermione has Advanced Skills
"There was the Jinxed DA parchment (that caused Marietta's face to be speckled in purple pimples) and the Protean Coin in GoF."
Any bets that Hermione would use a jinx that she couldn't reverse? Think if it misfired and got Ron or even herself! No, I believe that she knows the counter jinx, and when Marietta has repented, reformed or served the length of the sentence, then Hermione will provide such knowledge to the appropriate healer.

I am sure, that if Hermione being of age and learning apperation is important, Jo will cover how she learns. I still think, like drivers education in school, there will be classes held at Hogwarts. This would of course require field trips to Hogsmead for practical exercise of any preliminary steps.

From previous encounters, it does not appear that one person can cause or bring another to apperate with them. If the contrary were possible, the Weasleys would simply do so with there children in stead of using floo powder.



Prefect Marcus - Jan 7, 2005 6:18 pm (#1141 of 2486)
Edited by Jan 7, 2005 5:19 pm
Yes, I have to believe that Hogwarts has to have dis/apparating classes. It seems to be a somewhat difficult skill, and a very important one to use in everyday life. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if it is taught as a matter of course to sixth-years. They will be the ones that turn 17 before the next school term.

So I fully expect to see Harry doing some zapping in and out at Hogsmeade. It might even be the way the climax of HBP starts. His Appararing final is tampered with, and he ends up zapping himself into a bit of umpleasantness.



Solitaire - Jan 7, 2005 7:47 pm (#1142 of 2486)
I apologize for asking what is probably a very stupid question, but is the Forbidden Forest considered part of the Hogwarts grounds? I was just wondering if the "No Apparating/Disapparating Laws" applied there, as well. If they did not, perhaps that is where practice could occur.

I certainly cannot see Hogwarts not taking care to make sure wizarding students have proper apparating/disapparating skills. I would consider them quite remiss if they did not! Is it possible that this is a skill, the basics of which can be learned in a fairly short time?

If so, perhaps there are a few weekend workshops held in Hogsmeade or just outside the gates of Hogwarts. I would assume rudimentary skills would be all that are taught, based on watching Fred & George--perhaps apparating from just outside Hogwarts, into Hogsmeade, and back again. Perhaps it is assumed by teachers and the Ministry that once kids are old enough to apparate, they hardly need to be told to practice--rather like a muggle kid who's just received his learner's permit. All they want to do is drive, drive, drive! Weren't George and Fred the same ... apparating upstairs, downstairs, and anywhere else they could? Just a thought ...

Solitaire



Ludicrous Patents Office - Jan 7, 2005 8:55 pm (#1143 of 2486)
To add to the long list of why anyone would want Hermione as a friend instead of enemy: Rita Skeeter. She has been getting away with illegal snooping for years. It really galled her that "Miss Perfect" found her little secret. Hermione made a concerted effort to bring down Rita and was very successful.

Solitaire I always thought the forest was connected to the grounds but a separate magical place. I don't think Hogwarts has any jurisdiction in the Forbidden Forest. Student go there at their own risk. I have no idea if a Witch or Wizard can Apparate in the Forest. LPO



Gerald Costales - Jan 7, 2005 10:47 pm (#1144 of 2486)
"I believe that she knows the counter jinx, and when Marietta has repented, reformed or served the length of the sentence, then Hermione will provide such knowledge to the appropriate healer." Bumbledore

There were a great deal of extremely heated debate about the Jinxed DA Parchment on the Marietta E thread before it was closed for further posting. Near the end, I started having doubts whether Hermione knew the counter-jinx. Marietta did have those Purple Pimples on the return trip of the Hogwarts Express. But since neither Dumbledore or MacGonagall has done anything, let's hope the cure is forth coming for Marietta.

I think Marietta could easily become a Nibbler and the current equivalent of Pettigrew for this Hogwarts' generation. I don't think Marietta is as evil as Pettigrew. But you must brand Marietta a traitor and what she did may have cost DA lives (and did cost Sirius' life indirectly). (Solitare, I know I better stop here.) Hermione needs to watch her back with Marietta. (Again, who in the Order expected what Pettigrew would do to the Potters.)

Again, better Hermione's friend than to suffer the sting of Hermione. Hermione may not be a Queen Bee but she can sting just the same.

I think Hermione will be prepared to Apparate/Disapparate as soon as possible. Any edge or advantage the DA can get will be needed to keep the Nibblers at bay in Book 6.

Another person to lookout for is Umbridge. Umbridge is more likely to go after Dumbledore. But, Umbridge also has an axe to grind with Hermione. The Centuars may have humilated Umbridge. But, it was Hermione that caused the Centuar attack on Umbridge. Dolores the Queen Toad verus Hermione the Queen Bee. I think the smart money is on Hermione. ;-) GC

PS Knock! Knock! Ahem, ahem. Package for Ms. Granger. ;-) GC



MickeyCee3948 - Jan 7, 2005 10:59 pm (#1145 of 2486)
Umbridge is going to be so busy explaining herself to the MoM that she won't have a second to worry about revenge. The way secret information flows out of Hogwarts, I would be surprized if the toad is not on the same rail as the stooge(Fudge)when it rolls out of town. Hermione will do just fine, she didn't cause the Centuar's to attack Umbridge. The way Hermione handled the situation, it appears that the toads own actions brought on the attack.

Mikie



TwinklingBlueEyes - Jan 8, 2005 2:14 am (#1146 of 2486)
"Forbidden Forest ... perhaps that is where practice could occur."

Couldn't you just imagine accidently apparating into a tree...or a spider's web?

I think Hermione is going to have a very interesting year indeed.



Solitaire - Jan 8, 2005 3:51 am (#1147 of 2486)
Of all the students one would expect to be able to master apparating easily, Hermione is at the top of the list. You know she will have read everthing that has been written about it. Remember how she was before the kids' first flying lesson (PS/SS, Ch. 9, p. 178, US ed.): Hermione was almost as nervous about flying as Neville was. This was something you couldn't learn by heart out of a book--not that she hadn't tried. At breakfast on Thursday she bored them all stupid with flying tips she'd gotten out of a library book called Quidditch through the Ages. Somehow I think apparating is not something you can learn out of a book.

When I look at this, I wonder ... will it be something she has difficulty learning? Have we ever actually seen Hermione's flying skills described? We know well enough that she is usually the first one to master most things that can be handled in a classroom, but what about flying? How did she do? Then again, the Hermione we are dealing with today is different than the Hermione at the beginning of the series. Hermione has loosened up a lot. She is far more willing to take chances. Maybe it's hanging out with Ron and Harry ... maybe it's having spent so much time in company with Fred and George! LOL

It will be interesting, indeed, to see how Hermione does here, because she will not have her "comfort group"--Harry, Ron, Neville--around her when she is learning ... will she? What if the only kids who are the right age to study apparating are Slytherins--Slytherins who have an axe to grind? Could Hermione run into trouble if she is isolated from other Gryffindors? I'm making the assumption that no other Gryffs in Hermione's year are as old as she is, too. That could be wrong (Dean, Seamus, Lavendar, Parvati). Or maybe she will study with 7th years. I just think this is going to present some scenarios for Hermione to get into trouble on her own this year ...

Solitaire



Kelly Kapaoski - Jan 8, 2005 5:09 am (#1148 of 2486)
I think apperating is Optional magic that students don't have to learn but they can learn it if they want to.



haymoni - Jan 8, 2005 7:51 am (#1149 of 2486)
I keep thinking of Apparating like getting your driving license.

Some of the public high schools around me offered a semester-long Driver's Ed. My husband took his at his high school and claims to be a better driver for it.

I went to a private girls' school and we were not offered such fluff classes. We didn't have Home Economics, either. We were all supposed to go off and get fantastic jobs or marry well so that we could have maids to do those kinds of things.

But I digress...

For driving lessons, we went to driving schools. You sat in a room with a bunch of other 15/16-year-olds and watched movies like "Mechanized Death" that scared the doxy droppings out of you. Then you had to get so-many hours of actual driving experience.

If you were thinking ahead, you could book your classes and driving hours and get your license in about 2 weeks. Very scary.

I always imagined something similar with Apparating. You could study it at Hogwarts (with no practical application) and take the test over the Christmas holidays or go to Apparating School over the summer, depending on when your 17th birthday fell.



Steve Newton - Jan 8, 2005 8:09 am (#1150 of 2486)
Solitaire, you had asked whether or not the Forbidden Forest was part of the grounds of Hogwarts and apparatable. (I made up that last word.) I don't know but I am listening to SS and I have noticed at least 2 references (Dumbledore and Hagrid) to the twins in the forest. Maybe they were doing a little unauthorized practice.

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Joanne R. Reid - Jan 8, 2005 11:50 am (#1151 of 2486)
I have a thought about Dis/Apperating. We know that nobody can either Apperate or Disapperate into or from Hogwarts. But, what if it's possible to do so within certain specified areas/classrooms. That would satisfy the need to teach/learn, while still protecting the school from instantaneous appearances and disappearances. Thanks,



Solitaire - Jan 8, 2005 12:34 pm (#1152 of 2486)
Steve and Joanne ... both of your theories sound very likely! There has to be some instruction and practice--I would hope--before someone is simply granted a license to apparate ... no matter how old he or she is. Everyone who wants a driver's license must pass a written exam and at least one practical exam to show that he can actually drive!

Solitaire



TomProffitt - Jan 8, 2005 12:47 pm (#1153 of 2486)
I have put this forward before, but Madam Hooch seems to teach broom flying to first years and sponsors Quidditch. What else does she do?

Even if she teaches apparition she still only has a part time job. (Maybe she's married to one of the other profs?)

Hermione will probably be an excellent student, apparition seems to have more in common with transfiguration than broom flying. (Which I guess means it could be part of 6th year Transfiguration)

This topic seems to be leaving Hermione behind.



Solitaire - Jan 8, 2005 3:14 pm (#1154 of 2486)
Perhaps it needs its own thread!

Tom, I agree that apparating has much in common with transfiguration and will, most likely, be taught by McGonagall. The reason I made the comparison is that, like flying, taking a portkey, or even using floo powder, apparation is a physical experience and has physical sensations that (IMO) simply cannot be done justice in books. It must be ... well, EXPERIENCED!

Solitaire



Ludicrous Patents Office - Jan 8, 2005 4:44 pm (#1155 of 2486)
I don't think Hermione will have a hard time Apparating. Especially if McGonagall is teaching it. Just think how smug she will be. I almost feel sorry for Ron and Harry. LPO



wwtMask - Jan 10, 2005 7:28 am (#1156 of 2486)
I don't think Hermione is going to lord it over them. Besides, Harry and Ron are quite used to Hermione's mastering things before them and accept the fact that she is an exceptional witch.



Solitaire - Jan 10, 2005 10:11 am (#1157 of 2486)
I agree with Mask here. I also think Hermione has done less gloating in general recently. She knows Harry is a better flyer than she is, and she also clearly recognizes his abilities and experience in defensive magic--having been the one to press him to teach the DA. As things heat up in the war, I think our Trio (and the DA who are still around) will be supporting, encouraging, assisting, and defending each other rather than gloating ... don't you?

Solitaire



Eric Bailey - Jan 10, 2005 1:17 pm (#1158 of 2486)
And, really, what Ron tended to see as gloating was usually her trying to explain to him how to do something he was having problems with. In the early years, he preferred to think something he was having trouble with impossible for someone their age to do, so he found it irritating when she'd say "No, here's how you can do it".



TomProffitt - Jan 10, 2005 2:07 pm (#1159 of 2486)
I don't think Hermione gloats.

She lacks a little bit of tact in her enthusiasm when she's successful, but she's not trying to belittle anyone or or make anything of herself. She's the type of person who is so focused on the learning and the achievement that she forgets that there are other students in the classroom with her.



wwtMask - Jan 10, 2005 2:53 pm (#1160 of 2486)
I think Hermione got over the gloating thing a long time ago. Not that she doesn't want to let it be known that she's good, but the fact that everyone already knows she's top of the class and gloating would alienate her from her friends, she's thankfully grown out of the habit of being conspicuous about her achievements. Of course, she's probably also so used to knowing and doing magic that Ron and Harry haven't even heard of that it makes her unaware of how impressive her talents are. Hence the scene where she gave everyone the fake Galleons. We're so used to her talking about magic we've never heard of that, had not a Ravenclaw mentioned how the charm was NEWT standard, we would never have known that what she did was more impressive than usual. It's telling that she was caught unawares with the expressions of incredulity and offhanded praise she recieved from the Ravenclaws ("why aren't you in ravenclaw" is probably the highest compliment they pay anyone!).



Muggle Doctor - Jan 10, 2005 8:30 pm (#1161 of 2486)
I can't see what stops there being an area in Hogwarts which allows you to apparate/disapparate from place to place within it (possibly with a few brick walls inside, to practice "jumping" across or through things), but does not allow you to "project yourself" outside the room. It would have to be large.

I think we simply haven't seen it yet.



Ludicrous Patents Office - Jan 10, 2005 8:35 pm (#1162 of 2486)
OoP Scholastic Hardbound p. 396 After the first DA meeting: Ron: "Did you see me disarm Hermione, Harry?" "Only once," said Hermione, stung. "I got you loads more than you got me--" I agree wwtMask, Hermione has gotten much better with her gloating. It is still important to her that she learn faster and more than anyone else. LPO



Solitaire - Jan 10, 2005 8:49 pm (#1163 of 2486)
You may be right, Tom ... but to young kids (which they were when they started at Hogwarts) I think some of her comments and behavior might be perceived as gloating and smugness.

On the first train ride to Hogwarts, for example, she kind of rubs Ron the wrong way about his spell for Scabbers that doesn't work. He was trying to turn Scabbers yellow (little did we know, he already was yellow), and when it didn't work, she asks if it's a real spell. Then she tells him that all of the spells she has tried have all worked.

When they learn the Wingardium Leviosa! spell, she is kind of a know-it-all. Of course, this ends well, and she actually winds up joining the two of them, so that they officially become "the Trio." But she still has her moments ...

She goes over Harry's head to report the new Firebolt to McGonagall, earning the wrath of both Harry and Ron. Okay, so I might have been tempted to do the same thing on that one ... but I'm not a big one for meddling. At the end of the book, when Sirius sends the letter and confesses that he was indeed the one who sent it, she says, "Ha! See! I told you it was from him!"

Fortunately, she pulled back on this kind of behavior fairly soon. I have wondered if Harry and Ron aren't the first real friends Hermione has had. If Wizarding kids were put off by her demeanor, I think Muggle kids would feel pretty much the same. Hermione has certainly proven her friendship to Ron and Harry in many, many ways over the years, however. I think the little girl who didn't mind feeling a bit superior to everyone else has gone for good.

Solitaire



Weeny Owl - Jan 10, 2005 9:35 pm (#1164 of 2486)
I don't think Hermione gloats as much as she is pleased with herself for being able to learn new things in this odd world.

JKR has said that Hermione is insecure, and quite often when children suffer from insecurity, it may seem as if they're gloating, when inside, they're just so relieved that they didn't embarrass themselves.



Qwaz - Jan 11, 2005 4:17 am (#1165 of 2486)
Good point Weeny Owl. I hadn't thought about it quite that way before.



Kelly Kapaoski - Jan 11, 2005 7:31 am (#1166 of 2486)
She still has a bad habit of talking about which questions she could have put larger answers on in the exams though.

The one thing I have noticed is that we have not really met Mr. and Mrs. Granger. I mean they have made a breaf apperance in CoS when they were exchanging muggle currency and during the brawl between Lucius and Arthur in the book store but the readers have not been fully introduced to them. I am wondering if harry will somehow accually go to Hermione's house to visit and accually meet her parents at the beginning of book 6 or book 7



Eponine - Jan 11, 2005 8:34 am (#1167 of 2486)
Here's what JKR has to say about Hermione's parents.

From the Stephen Fry interview, June 26, 2003

SF: Now, just a personal question because you seem to know, are we ever going meet Hermione's parents?

JKR: Well we've seen them briefly but they're dentists so they're not that interesting.

She doesn't actually answer the question, but it seems to imply that they're just not that important to the story.



Weeny Owl - Jan 11, 2005 10:37 am (#1168 of 2486)
She still has a bad habit of talking about which questions she could have put larger answers on in the exams though.

Yes, and that is indicative of her insecurity. She's worrying that she just won't be quite good enough to be part of this world, and if she hasn't answered a question properly, she may fear that she won't be able to continue her schooling at Hogwarts.



Solitaire - Jan 11, 2005 11:50 am (#1169 of 2486)
Following the incident in which Harry was reprimanded by Snape for having been seen in Hogsmeade by Draco--and Remus repossesses the Marauders Map--Ron and Harry run into Hermione in the hall. Ron, thinking she has heard about this, asks her if she has come to gloat. (She hasn't; she's come to tell them about Buckbeak losing his appeal.) So Ron must have--at some point--perceived some of Hermione's past behavior as gloating.

Solitaire



Weeny Owl - Jan 11, 2005 2:03 pm (#1170 of 2486)
So Ron must have--at some point--perceived some of Hermione's past behavior as gloating.

That's entirely possible, Solitaire, but it's also possible that Ron was expecting her to gloat because of past experiences with other people, the twins, for example. Many times we react by habit regardless of the intentions of the other person.



Solitaire - Jan 11, 2005 3:02 pm (#1171 of 2486)
I think he expected it of Hermione. There were some pretty intense hostilities between the two of them for a large part of PoA.



Joanne R. Reid - Jan 11, 2005 3:43 pm (#1172 of 2486)
I'm sure that there are many of us are/were Hermione. We were smarter than our peers. We were quicker to grasp concepts, develop rules and employ our abilities to change our environment even though we were young at the time.

We thought that we were normal. None of us realized that we weren't. We couldn't understand why others just didn't get it. It was frustrating for us, so we "helped" other people.

Low and behold! To our utter amazement, they resented us! They told us to mind our own business. They demanded that we leave them alone and that we stop being show offs.

"Sorry! Didn't mean to. It's just that I could and you couldn't and I could see that you couldn't so I was just trying to help! Why don't you want help? Or, is it me that you don't want or like or whatever.

Well, if you don't like me, just say so and I'll leave you alone. So there!" ;-((

Been there? Done that? To all of us who have, it's a joy to finally have a heroine with whom we can identify, empathize and sympathize.

Thanks



Hollywand - Jan 11, 2005 10:13 pm (#1173 of 2486)
Great post, Joanne!



Weeny Owl - Jan 11, 2005 10:14 pm (#1174 of 2486)
Yes, Solitaire, there were definite hostilities between them, and perhaps he did expect it.

I love what you've just said, Joanne. That explains Hermione so well, and in some ways I can definitely identify and empathize with her.



constant vigilance - Jan 12, 2005 9:16 am (#1175 of 2486)
Maybe gloating is the wrong word but I think Hermoine can be a wee bit insensitive when it comes to grades. Remember in OOTP when her, Ron and Harry have gotten back some paper from Snape. She talks thoughtlessly of how mortified she would have been to get a 'D' (I think. I can't find the passage but whatever it was a poor mark) Well, that's the precise grade Harry had gotten. Hermoine doesn't gloat so much as make others feel like failures for getting lower grades.

I've experienced this situation many times from Harry's end and it feels rotten. People as clever as Hermoine don't realize how difficult it is for other people to grasp things. From Hermoine's point of view, you study something a few time and then you've learned it, but for Harry its just not that easy.



Catherine - Jan 12, 2005 9:58 am (#1176 of 2486)
I think Hermione's discussion about the grades Snape gave for their essays stemmed from her own insecurity and fear of failure. She wants reassurance that it can improve.

Hermione did not gloat, and did not say anything to indicate that a D was a bad grade. That was Lee Jordan. Hermione was appalled at the possibility of a T, which we still don't know for sure really exists as part of the grading scale, as it seemed as though George was joking.

The only thing Hermione did was ask what the grades stand for, and in what order they appear. JKR is using Hermione, in the typical way, to give the reader expository knowledge.



Potions Mistress - Jan 12, 2005 10:12 am (#1177 of 2486)
I admit to being a lot like Hermione, esp. when it comes to grades. I've always been an introvert and it didn't help in school when classmates would be resentful of my good grades. It didn't take long for me to just be quiet about them so as not incur the "wrath" of my classmates. However, it has gotten better in college, where I do have friends who are a lot like me/Hermione, and we can freak out over getting a "B". ;-)

~pm

PS: I know we have some teachers on the forum, so I'd like to ask you all a question. I don't remember reading of any Hogwarts teacher publicly announcing "Hermione got the best grade on the assignment." (Although, I could be remembering incorrectly.) If they did, I don't think that would help Hermione's perception as a "gloater," I know when it happened to me and other kids in school (esp. elementary school and junior high) it caused A LOT of resentment. So, my question is, how do you teachers (and other forum members as well) congratulate those who have done an outstanding job? And how does the environment (ex: elementary school vs. college classroom vs. job, etc.) affect that? Tying (sp?) this in with Hermione, I wonder how she is congratulated/rewarded, etc., as well as the environment will affect her.



Hollywand - Jan 12, 2005 10:48 am (#1178 of 2486)
Potions Mistress---I was an avid and enthusiastic student; it saved me from my awful home life. I always thought others had the same ability and enthusiasm as I did, and had a deep desire to help others. I have been stung by others wishing "I could be taken down a few notches"---and I think it's a sort of bias about how women should comport themselves.

As a teacher, my heart breaks at the differences in abilities. I encourage my most motivated by offering them increasingly interesting exercises. I take care to nurture and acknowledge the gifted young women as much as the gifted young men. I offer to write them reference letters and make them aware of scholarships. I also praise them privately, as opposed to a teacher, and Snape is an example of this, who feels that lots of humiliation will improve the gifted student somehow.

My frustration is with gifted slackers, and Harry and Ron are examples of this---they often don't apply themselves as much as they could. Conversely, one gets students with dyslexia or some other unfortunate disabiltiy who are trying three times as hard as the slackers and getting even less results. In cases like this, I want to magically hand the intellectual talents of the slackers to the struggling disabled students and let them run with the gift.



MickeyCee3948 - Jan 12, 2005 11:10 am (#1179 of 2486)
I agree with you Hollywand. I believe that JKR is more or less attempting to give her younger readers a lesson. Look you can slack off, bypass your studying, depend on others and get by but in the end the only person you hurt is yourself for you'll get a grade that reflects the effort you extended. Or you can study, practice and prepare yourself for your studies and your grade should reflect the extra work you put into your studies.

Mikie



VeronikaG - Jan 12, 2005 11:22 am (#1180 of 2486)
Gifted slacker works well before college, but not in college, I have discovered.

Hollywand would have hated to have me as her student.



Elanor - Jan 12, 2005 1:55 pm (#1181 of 2486)
I am a teacher in an elementary school and I am very careful to make sure that each and every kid is able to have some encouraging remark when he succeeds in something dificult for him, though the difficulty of the task changes A LOT according to the kid's abilities.

For the best ones, I try and propose them some challenges, saying "let's see if you succeed doing this exercise, it is lot more difficult but I'm sure you can do it" and it works very well. For the ones who have serious difficulties, I try and help them and say things like "you see you can do it" when they find an answer.

For the slacker ones, (the ones you have to "pull and push" all day long - exhausting) I have another method to motivate them (difficult but feasable when they are Cool. It works well with the very good ones as well. I give "virtual" medals for the ones who have finished the work first and correctly. Actually, the one they prefer is the 4th one because after the bronze medal, I "give" the chocolate one and this one always crack them up with laughter. The things you can imagine sometimes...

BTW, I was a kind of Hermione too at school and it wasn't easy every day the more because I was very shy. My worst memory was at the university, during my first year, when the teacher gave them back our first mid-term exam and gave mine last saying it was the only good one he read. I would have disappeared under the earth with joy feeling the not so friendly looks of the entire lecture theatre on me. I think Hermione would have appreciated the situation more than I did! LOL!



Potions Mistress - Jan 12, 2005 2:25 pm (#1182 of 2486)
Very cool responses! I worked with kids at a day camp for a couple of summers while in high school, and I think the hardest part of a highly enjoyable job was trying to figure out all these kids' skills and corresponding skill levels, and then getting them to 1) work at what they knew could do well and 2) get them to try something new. Looking at Hermione, I think her idea of starting the DA was great because of the obvious practical reasons (not to mention annoying the heck out of Umbridge--LOL), but because it also got Hermione "out of the books and into reality," so to speak. (I hope that makes sense!) It kind of made me wish I had a DA-equivalent during that summer job. :-)

~pm

PS: Veronika, I've also discovered that "gifted procrastinator" doesn't work all that well in college, either. (LOL)



Steve Newton - Jan 12, 2005 3:03 pm (#1183 of 2486)
gifted procrastinator got me through graduate school.



Hollywand - Jan 12, 2005 3:31 pm (#1184 of 2486)
Well, and then there's the Old Wives' Tale "Never criticize someone until you have walked a mile in their shoes. By then, you will be a mile away, and you will also have their shoes." Forty thousand Old Wives can't be wrong. ;-)



TomProffitt - Jan 12, 2005 6:36 pm (#1185 of 2486)
My college French professor thought that I was a gifted slacker, but by that time I had learned not to be one. Yet, she wanted more work per week than any other professor I had had, and after four and a half years (lots of changes in major not dropped courses & flunkings) two As weren't going to make a dent in my GPA when I was going to get Bs by slacking.

What do you do with Fred & George as a teacher? You've probably got a lot more of those kids (the one's that don't see school as providing any more benefit prior to graduation than they already have) than you do self-motivating Hermiones learning for the sheer joy of learning.



Ludicrous Patents Office - Jan 12, 2005 7:11 pm (#1186 of 2486)
Hollywand I agree wholeheartedly. I was a student who struggled in school with learning disabilities. Kids who were very bright in my High School did not succeed in college. I did. Work ethic is very important. I love Hermione because she is always going to the library, knows how to use it and she also knows how to work. What a fabulous combination! However it is hurtful when people have a "superiority complex" about their abilities. I have to admit I can relate more to Ron and Harry than Hermione. LPO



Hollywand - Jan 12, 2005 8:29 pm (#1187 of 2486)
I worked with someone who was a case of a bad genius. She continually reminded everyone she was a MENSA member, and humiliated others with her vast knowledge of everything in the world. She also congratulated herself constantly on being a self-serving capitalist business woman, and scoffed at the "tender hearted" as pathetic. She ran our Marketing Team. When I read of the Bellatrix LeStrange character, I imagine this woman I used to work with.

She was an awful manager. She made sure to humilitate and overwork every poor assistant who was fed to her. Our boss had her do all the "hatchet work" so he could look like a nice fellow. She managed to protect her position, I suppose, and her myopic ambitions, but no one worked for her for very long, and she had to reinvent the wheel by retraining assistants constantly. Was it good for the company? She could care less. A bad Slytherin, I would say.

I can't imagine Hermione's character using her intelligence to destroy other people the way our office Bellatrix did. I'm glad to be far away from her and her hideous laugh. Now I only see her when I'm reading about Bellatrix.



Solitaire - Jan 12, 2005 9:39 pm (#1188 of 2486)
... scoffed at the "tender hearted" as pathetic ... made sure to humilitate and overwork every poor assistant who was fed to her

Substitute "student" for "assistant" and you have someone who sounds a bit like Snape, to me.



Potions Mistress - Jan 12, 2005 10:47 pm (#1189 of 2486)
gifted procrastinator got me through graduate school.--Steve Newton

Good to know Steve, considering that's where I'll be in about a year and half from now. :-)

Hollywand, I can totally relate to the "jerk boss"--for the first couple months at the restaurant where I waitress at, the general manager was one of the "Do as I say, not as I do," type of manager (in other words, bad, bad, BAD!!) He was incredibly hypocritical: you would call in sick and he would threaten to fire you, but a week later, he would call in sick. He tried to cover his rear for not doing his job by telling employees to lie during a corporate inspection, and when things went well, would take all the credit and glory ("Well, it's because I'm so great.") or blame all his employees if things went badly ("It's all their fault, I had nothing to do with this fiasco.") He was eventually fired, and as much as I hate to admit taking any amount of pleasure in another's misfortune, I was doing cartwheels on the inside when I heard he was gone.

Bringing this back to Hermione--I've never seen her in act in any sort way resembling some of the posted examples. Yes, she is very proud of her accomplishments and how she demonstrates that could be considered gloating by some (like Ron), but I never saw it in a "I'm so much better than you" conscious pride/gloat.

~pm



Gerald Costales - Jan 13, 2005 7:00 am (#1190 of 2486)
I think a good student will usually do well in almost any situation. I'm thinking of that saying, "The cream always rises to the top."

I like Hermione for her loyality as well as for her intelligence. In her own way, she tried helping Harry & Ron, remember the talking schedules, but neither Harry or Ron are willing to work as hard as Hermione. Hermione is definitly an overachiever. But, despite that she will take time to help others. Hermione helped Hagrid with his appeal of Buckbeak to the point of ignoring her studies, which is a great sacrifice on Hermione's part indeed. And there is Hermione and that SPEW *cough* thing.

SPEW just points out Hermione is not self-centered, though over zealous at times (she hasn't asked House-Elves if they want Freedom, she's just assumed everyone would want Freedom). The DA was not all just Umbridge, I believe Hermione wanted to help others. As Hermione continues at Hogwarts, she has become less insecure and more complete. Hermione is less bookish and more practical entering her sixth year.

I'm glad Hermione's on the DA's and Order's team against the Nibblers, Death Eaters, and Voldermort. ;-) GC



constant vigilance - Jan 13, 2005 8:16 am (#1191 of 2486)
I think boastful is definately the wrong word to describe Hermione. She has recieved a great deal of praise from professors since being at Hogwarts, however she has never once walked around saying, "I'm the brightest witch of my age." No, Hermoine is too focussed on learning and the importance of getting good grades.

Actually, the problem for Hermione, which makes her a little, insy winsy bit insensitive, is that she doesn't realize just how advanced she is. To her, her level of comprehension is normal so she talks about it casually. But, from Ron and Harry's perspective it seems like she is gloating because they know she is advanced. I think Hermione being so intelligent and focussed on learning sometimes causes people to look at Harry and Ron's approach to school in a less positive light. I think Harry and Ron are quite normal in their level of dedication to school because they want to enjoy being kids.



Solitaire - Jan 30, 2004 6:37 pm (#1192 of 2486)
she doesn't realize just how advanced she is. To her, her level of comprehension is normal so she talks about it casually. But, from Ron and Harry's perspective it seems like she is gloating

I think CV has it nailed here. I don't think she boasted or gloated intentionally, either. I just think it was sometimes perceived that way, because Ron and Harry felt sort of incompetent in many ways compared to her. But since Hermione has begun to break (or at least bend) a few rules herself--although always for good cause--the kids have begun to see her differently, as one of them.

Solitaire



Potions Mistress - Jan 13, 2005 10:31 am (#1193 of 2486)
But since Hermione has begun to break (or at least bend) a few rules herself--although always for good cause--the kids have begun to see her differently, as one of them.--Solitaire

We have definitely seen Hermione change from the "bossy know-it-all" first year in PS/SS to a more approachable, mature, secure person. Hermione is getting a better sense of who she is and where she is going in life. I've no doubt that we'll see her evolve even more through the next two books--she is most definitely the brightest witch of her age and I think we're going to see her put that to even more work in the upcoming war. (For starters, I think she'll talk to the house-elves themselves about freedom. ;-) )

~pm



Solitaire - Jan 13, 2005 1:18 pm (#1194 of 2486)
The SPEW business is one area where Hermione has been uncharacteristically dense. She has failed to do the most important thing she needs to do--talk directly to the House-elves--to achieve success.

I do feel, however, that Harry needs to level with her regarding what Dobby told him--the other House-elves don't want to clean Gryffindor because of the hats she leaves around. If she knew that her own behavior was undermining her efforts--and exactly why and how it was doing so--she would probably be able to figure out what questions to ask the Elves in order to get on the right track.

I think Harry should stop and reflect on how he feels when someone withholds important information from him. He needs to tell Hermione the truth.

Solitaire



Muggle Doctor - Jan 13, 2005 2:59 pm (#1195 of 2486)
And I think that now he HAS had the experience of having info withheld, he probably will tell her. Most of the SPEW fuss was in GoF anyway, and this is a whole book later.

He needs (most if not all of) his holiday time (and our anxious waiting time, GRRRR!!!) to reflect on the OOTP year. He isn't going to sort it out overnight. Nobody could.

I hope Hermione will be sympathetic at the least, and not try too hard to point out what he could have done. She is already telling him "I told you so" in his dreams, IMHO. She doesn't need to tell him in real life.

Maybe if she does, there will be an almighty screaming match and she will learn something about being sensitive. Then, and only then, can the H/Hr shippers relax. :-p



Eric Bailey - Jan 13, 2005 5:40 pm (#1196 of 2486)
Ah, we can have RavingParanoid!Harry at the beginning of HBP...

Harry: GO AHEAD!!! SAY IT!!!

Hermione: Say what?

Harry: Say "I told you so", again!!! Like you've been saying to me EVERY NIGHT!!!

Hermione: What? I haven't been... Harry, you DO remember this is the first time we've seen each other in weeks.

Harry: In my dreams!!! You KEEP SAYING IT!!!

Hermione: In your... You dream about me? What am I wearing, out of curiosity?

Harry: Never mind that!!! Why do you keep saying "I told you so" in my dreams?!!!

Hermione: How should I know?!!! They're YOUR dreams, Harry. I have no control over that.

Harry: Yeah, sure...

Hermione: What are you taking about?!!!

Harry: Don't give me that "I'm innocent and you're looking crazy" look! Voldemort invaded my dreams, and now YOU are!!!

Hermione: Um... Harry... Maybe you should sit down, for a bit... You're... a bit... stressed...

Harry: Oh yeah, that's what you WANT me to do...



Tomoé - Jan 13, 2005 6:17 pm (#1197 of 2486)
I'd like to change a line :

Hermione: In your... You dream about me? What am I wearing, out of curiosity?

Harry: Your Hogwarts uniform, what else? ... Never mind that!!! Why do you keep saying "I told you so" in my dreams?!!!

Beside that I like your take a lot. ^_^



Prefect Marcus - Jan 13, 2005 6:27 pm (#1198 of 2486)
Edited by Jan 13, 2005 5:28 pm
I rather like --

Hermione: "In your... You dream about me? What am I wearing, out of curiosity?"

Harry: "A black hooded robe and a scythe! You're creeping me out!"



Catherine - Jan 13, 2005 6:53 pm (#1199 of 2486)
LOL, Marcus! That scythe would do it, no doubt.



Ludicrous Patents Office - Jan 13, 2005 7:17 pm (#1200 of 2486)
Hopefully Hermione has gained enough sensitivity to not tell Harry "I told you so." The dreams have done it for her. LPO

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