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Mona Fri May 06, 2011 11:21 am
Tomoé - Jan 13, 2005 8:20 pm (#1201 of 2486)
That sounds even better Marcus. ^_~
Kelly Kapaoski - Jan 13, 2005 10:01 pm (#1202 of 2486)
one thing I have noticed about Hermione and her House Elf Liberation campaign is that she has never spoken to Dumbledore about freeing the house elves.
Gerald Costales - Jan 14, 2005 6:42 am (#1203 of 2486)
I think Dumbledore does support Freedom for House-Elves. But, I don't think Dumbledore would approve of SPEW. Dumbledore I think is establishing a generation of House-Elves that may be ready to accept Freedom. Why else have a Hundred Happy House-Elves working at Hogwarts. :-) GC
PS Unless Dumbledore is planning to arm them and have them fight in the War against Voldermort and Death Eaters. Look how Wizards reacted with Winky when they thought Winky had a Wand! A Hundred Wand wheeling House-Elves, they might not fight for Freedom but they'd fight to protect their lives and Hogwarts their Home. ;-) GC
Solitaire - Jan 14, 2005 8:30 am (#1204 of 2486)
If what Dobby did to Lucius is any indication, House-elves may not need "arming." Remember Dobby sent him flying down the stairs when he attempted to hurt Harry at the end of CoS. I believe House-elves must practice wandless magic.
Solitaire
Catherine - Jan 14, 2005 10:44 am (#1205 of 2486)
Gerald Costales, your last post made me think about whether Hermione has discussed S.P.E.W. or House Elves with Dumbledore.
Hermione seems pretty bold in her approach with S.P.E.W., so it is not out of the realm of possibility for her to have sought advice, or an audience with Dumbledore. Hermione also seems to be quoting Dumbledore when she admonishes people for their words/actions concerning Kreacher.
Somehow, though, I don't think that Dumbledore and Hermione have spoken about S.P.E.W.
Hollywand - Jan 14, 2005 3:08 pm (#1206 of 2486)
Don't you think the Hogwarts House Elves would mention to the Barmy Old Codger about their Hermione manufactured tea-cozy caps?
Ludicrous Patents Office - Jan 14, 2005 8:46 pm (#1207 of 2486)
Hermione took every opportunity to defend Kreacher and stick up for Winky. If she had the chance she would say something to Dumbledore. The Barmy Old Codger probably knows that Dobby is the only one cleaning Gryffindor. I expect he is the one the house elves report to. LPO
Solitaire - Jan 14, 2005 9:21 pm (#1208 of 2486)
Well, Hermione is certainly on her own odyssey of self-discovery. Perhaps Dumbledore has things for her to learn, as well. Hermione may very well have what it takes to become a Minister of Magic someday. If there is no law against Muggle-borns in that position, I can see her being awesome. As one who knows the Muggle world initmately, she is perfectly situated there. l.
But it is equally important that she not just accept other magical beings but truly understand the histories and perspectives that make them an integral part of the magical world. It is possible that she can only learn these things by experiencing what not to do. (I hope this makes sense.)
Solitaire
Hollywand - Jan 14, 2005 9:57 pm (#1209 of 2486)
I suspect Rowling is building us up for a "Fred and George" moment with the House Elves and the gradual accumulation of clothing Hermione is making for them.
When she started out with the Puking Pastilles, I could never guess they would completely confound Umbridge.
I suspect we will see a similar hilarious moment with the House Elves when they decide they want those socks and hats!
Gerald Costales - Jan 15, 2005 6:14 am (#1210 of 2486)
"I suspect we will see a similar hilarious moment with the House Elves when they decide they want those socks and hats!" Hollywand
I'm not to sure that moment will be hilarious. The moment that was building for Neville, I believe was when Neville decided to join the group going to the MoM. None of the six members of that group could have known that a rescue attempt of Sirius at the MoM would lead to a confrontation with Voldermort and the Death Eaters.
Neville ultimately proved himself a talented Wizard in the Battle at the MoM. And I can't wait to see Neville further evolve into an even better Wizard in Books 6 & 7. I think even Hermione proved herself as more than clever and bookish in that Battle. Though unintended, that Battle provided a moment of growth for all of them. But, I didn't see Ron, Luna, and Ginny growing as much from the Battle as Harry, Neville, and Hermione.
I think most of us may picture Ron by Harry's side in a tough situation. Ron was there with Harry when they meet Aragog and also when Gilderoy tried to blast both Harry and Ron with a Memory Charm. Ron was even with Harry when they both rescued Hermione, who was trapped by that Mountain Troll.
But in that Final Confrontation with Voldermort and the Death Eaters, I wouldn't be surprised that either Hermione or Neville is there instead of Ron. (Hopefully Ron is alive and just not present at that Final Confrontation. But, you never know.)
Also in those Dark moments Fawkes is present or his birdsong is in the background. The first instance was when Harry faced Tom Riddle and the Basilisk in the Chamber of Secrets. And the second instance was when Harry was trapped in the Graveyard surrounded by Death Eaters and facing Voldermort.
Harry is a better Wizard because of Hermione. (And Hermione would be a good match for Harry for that reason.) (Hope the monitors aren't reading. I hate posting in the "Ship" thread.!) ;-) GC
Tomoé - Jan 15, 2005 1:52 pm (#1211 of 2486)
We don't know about Ron, Luna and Ginny, maybe they get quite their share of experience. I mean, Luna was all there, once the fight began, she left la-la-land and was 100% in the real world, she did a concise report of the planet room events, she helped glue off the doors, she was efficient. Ginny was hurt, but she wasn't weak, she did make a crybaby of herself and slow the others down, she did not panick like she did with the Diary affair. Ron ... well ... Ron was out of his mind when he left the planet room, but so was Hermione at the time, I don't see it like fore-shadowing Ron's absence at the end, unless it fore-shadow Hermione's absence in the final showdown as well.
I mean, Ron was phisically out for the PS, CoS, PoA, GoF and OoP show down, but Hermione as well. She get a much better part than Ron in PoA, but was out for the Dementors part both time around. Ron was morepresent in CoS and Hermione had to make out for it.
Just my 2 knuts.
Edit in red
Gerald Costales - Jan 16, 2005 2:41 pm (#1212 of 2486)
". . . Ron was out of his mind when he left the planet room, but so was Hermione at the time, I don't see it like fore-shadowing Ron's absence at the end, unless it fore-shadow Hermione's absence in the final showdown as well." Tomoe'
In GoF, Harry finally got some support from others when confronting Voldermort. Ron, Hermione, Neville, Ginny, and even Luna were all there when Harry needed them the most. After the Sextet held the DE back, eventually Dumbledore and some of the Order came to the rescue. I believe those days of Harry facing Voldermort "One on One", as in PS & CoS, are gone.
Why won't Voldermort face Harry alone?
. . . 1. Voldermort has seen that Harry is fast becoming a Great Wizard.
. . . 2. The DA and the Order are on guard watching Harry.
Harry in the future will have someone watching and ready to come to his aid. (Whether the MoM will be watching Harry will depend on whose in charge at the MoM at the beginning of HBP.)
In fact by GoF & OotP, Voldermort has had a group of Death Eaters when facing Harry. Don't be fooled Voldermort didn't just want a crowd to witness Harry's death in the Graveyard. When the Brother Wands unlocked, the Death Eaters were there to finish Harry off. But fortunately both Voldermort and the Death Eaters failed to kill Harry. And in OotP it was just too convenient that Voldermort showed up after Lucius and the other Death Eaters had tried and failed to get the Prophecy from the Sextet.
But if Harry needed only one person by his side, I believe it would be either Hermione or Neville and not Ron. Why?
1. Hermione in OotP became bolder and less bookish. And Hermione can summon a Patronus. I believe her ability to summon a Patronus is a sign of Hermione shedding her old bookish Know-It-All persona and being ready to aid Harry when needed.
2. Neville is still tied to the Prophecy. I believe with a new Wand Neville will become a better Wizard. Neville also wants to avenge both his parents. Neville has long wanted to help the Trio. But by HBP, I believe Neville will finally be ready to aid Harry if needed.
I just don't believe Ron is the one that will be there with Harry at that Final Confrontation. Ron is neither weak or scared, I just don't feel he's right for that ultimate situation. ;-( GC
MickeyCee3948 - Jan 16, 2005 3:11 pm (#1213 of 2486)
I agree with you GC, I don't think Ron will be their for the final confrontation. But I believe for a different reason. It is my opinion that Ron will be lost to the trio at the end of HBP. I believe he will go out as a hero saving either Harry, Hermione or both of them. This will be the final nail in Voldemort's coffin as it will drive Harry to do whatever must be done to rid the WW of the Dark Lord and the DE's.
Mikie
Steve Newton - Jan 16, 2005 5:34 pm (#1214 of 2486)
As Ron said in SS "I am going to be a knight." I think that he will go down heroically, maybe dead but certainly out of action at some point. Maybe in HBP.
TomProffitt - Jan 16, 2005 7:22 pm (#1215 of 2486)
In the final confrontation between Harry and Lord Voldemort in book 7, I want to see the entire Wizarding World behind Harry and no one with Voldemort, or at least an appropriate symbolic reflection of that. Something like a member or two from each House, a few teachers, some OP members, a turned DE, and the new Minister of Magic. The symbol of the whole series should be the progression of Harry alone (a boy in the cupboard under the stairs) to a young man with the whole world at his side.
I expect instead to see Harry alone fighting Lord Voldemort one last time, one on one.
I don't think Hermione's role will be significantly more or less special than it always has been. Harry's friends are Harry's friends. They're friends, it doesn't matter whether or not they can beat up Death Eaters. And Harry certainly isn't going to choose his spouse based on her magical prowess ... and it won't be the best looking girl that'll have him either.
Solitaire - Jan 16, 2005 8:19 pm (#1216 of 2486)
I like your "ideal" scenario, Tom. I would love to see the same, since I believe it will require the entire Wizarding World working together--like the Sorting Hat says--to bring about peace. But even if Harry has most of the WW--the Order, the DA, and various other magical beings--standing beside, behind, and around him, I still believe there will have to be a final showdown in which Harry and Voldemort face each other alone, in wand-to-wand combat ... it just seems that is how it is destined to be. I hope I am wrong.
Solitaire
Gerald Costales - Jan 17, 2005 8:04 am (#1217 of 2486)
"And Harry certainly isn't going to choose his spouse based on her magical prowess ... and it won't be the best looking girl that'll have him either." TomProffitt
Gee, Tom I wonder who that might be. *cough* Hermione *cough*
"I still believe there will have to be a final showdown in which Harry and Voldemort face each other alone, in wand-to-wand combat ..." Solitaire
If it's a "Wand-on-Wand" showdown, then the circumstances of how and why Harry received his "Holly wand" and Voldermort his "Yew wand" need a closer examination. Like the Prophecy, those Wands choosing first Tom Riddle and then Harry seem like pre-ordained events and not just some random and coincidental events. And the fact that both their Wand's cores are from the tail feather of Fawkes adds to the sense of pre-ordained events.
Here's an alternative to a "Wand-on-Wand" showdown - Voldermort with his "Yew wand" and Harry "Wandless". If anyone will able to do "Wandless Magic", it will be Harry. (Especially since Harry may have used "Wandless Magic" already.) ;-) GC
Solitaire - Jan 17, 2005 10:05 am (#1218 of 2486)
Oh, I don't know. Given everything Dumbledore has said about him, it's possible that Voldemort may be capable of a bit of wandless magic himself. It is also possible that he may realize the problem with the wands and attempt to use another wand. I suspect he or his DEs may have several ... souvenirs of past "kills," perhaps? Then again, perhaps not.
Solitaire
MickeyCee3948 - Jan 17, 2005 11:36 am (#1219 of 2486)
Solitaire-Considering the ten years that he floated around from one body to another while just a vapor, I would say that he is pretty much capable of almost any "wandless" magic he might avail himself of.
GC and Tom you don't actually think Harry might eventually end up with Hermione do you. I mean Really! Don't tell anyone but I agree with you both.
Mikie
Choices - Jan 17, 2005 11:42 am (#1220 of 2486)
I think the reason Voldemort had to inhabit lower animals for so long was because he did not have a wand, couldn't hold a wand and couldn't do much wandless magic that would help him. I think there is a limit as to what can be done without a wand, although I do think that the more powerful the wizard, the more he can do. But even then, I still think it is somewhat limited.
Harry and Hermione - I just get good vibes about them and I think they are going to end up together.....they are just good for each other.
Solitaire - Jan 17, 2005 11:55 am (#1221 of 2486)
I wonder when he did get the ability to hold a wand. He certainly held one to kill Frank Bryce on the very last page of Chapter 1, GoF: He was screaming so loudly tht he never heard the words the thing in the chair spoke as it raised a wand. There was a flash of green light, a rushing sound, and Frank Bryce crumpled. He was dead before he hit the floor.
Someone--I can't remember who it was--suggested that perhaps Voldemort transformed into a sort of "golem" as an interim body, to make the trip back to Britain and await his rebirthing. Would he be able to hold a wand in that state? I don't know much about them ... I wish I could remember on which thread I read this.
As for inhabiting any animal--large or small--wouldn't that require the ability to do some fairly advanced magic, wandless or not? Just curious ...
Solitaire
TomProffitt - Jan 17, 2005 2:29 pm (#1222 of 2486)
"GC and Tom you don't actually think Harry might eventually end up with Hermione do you. I mean Really! Don't tell anyone but I agree with you both." --- Mikie
Oh no, my line was intended to indicate that even though we see Hermione as (what was the quote?) "the most capable witch of her age" it isn't any kind of a reason for her to be paired with Harry. Likewise Harry (and Ron) will outgrow their juvenile desire for "the best looking girl that will have them."
I'm a "Big Happy Weasley Family" devotee myself.
Choices - Jan 17, 2005 2:55 pm (#1223 of 2486)
Since we have never been told what sort of magic it requires to inhabit an animal, it is something about which we are going to have to guess, I suppose.
Prefect Marcus - Jan 17, 2005 3:54 pm (#1224 of 2486)
This "wandless magic to inhabit an animal" is fascinating, but it has little to do with Hermione, I'm afraid. Perhaps moving to another thread is in order?
MickeyCee3948 - Jan 17, 2005 4:29 pm (#1225 of 2486)
Prefect Marcus-But we were talking about how we think Hermione could possibly inhabit Crookshanks.
Mikie
Catherine - Jan 17, 2005 4:35 pm (#1226 of 2486)
Mikie, I must have missed that. I was scanning the last ten or so posts myself, trying to figure out where the thread was going, because I was confused.
I agree with Marcus that this thread needs to focus on Hermione. Let's get back on track.
Are you suggesting, Mikie, that Hermione can posess Crookshanks as Voldemort possesses Nagini? That's quite an interesting thought, and I would really like to see any textual evidence you might have.
MickeyCee3948 - Jan 17, 2005 4:45 pm (#1227 of 2486)
OK Catherine, you caught me we were off topic. I have slammed my head in the oven three times and ironed my hands. It won't happen again. The punishment hurts too much.
Mikie
Catherine - Jan 17, 2005 4:57 pm (#1228 of 2486)
Mikie, Ouch! I forbid you to hurt yourself, and that is an order.
We still need to get back on track.
I will start with something that will be SO obvious that you will groan. My husband keeps saying, "Hermione is being set up for something. What is it?"
He's something of a muggle, in that he doesn't reread the way I do, but he's read the books and seen the movies, and enjoys it all.
Hollywand - Jan 17, 2005 5:18 pm (#1229 of 2486)
Witches are classically thought to have "familiars". These are animal counterparts that are their companions, and the witch was also thought to inhabit the "familiar", especially at night. Cats are a classic "familiar" animal, so the association with Hermionie and Crookshanks being familiars, as well as Voldemort and Nagini as familiars are both plausible, even without the mention of wands.
Cats as witch familiars lent cats a reputation as animals that kill infants by sucking the life breath out of them. Lots of country folk in the not too distant past were very hostile to cats due to this superstition.
Mishaps need scapegoats, and isolated women were prime targets to be identified as witches.
Folk superstitions about the powers of snakes are also strange and hilarious. I read a very funny account of a snake specialist debunking myths about snakes, such as, "snakes can hold onto their tail and roll as a sort of hula hoop for long distances." Haha.
Solitaire - Jan 17, 2005 6:33 pm (#1230 of 2486)
I don't know, Hollywand ... that snake holding its tail and rolling along sounds a lot like your ouroboros, to me! Sorry, Catherine!
Just to keep things on track ... I think Hermione's interest in animagi could signal an interest in learning how to transform. We have already discussed her eligibility to apparate this year. I suspect she may also want to learn to transform. If her past performance in McGonagall's classes are any indication, she should be great at it.
Solitaire
Catherine - Jan 17, 2005 6:40 pm (#1231 of 2486)
That is interesting, Solitaire, because the way I read the passages was that Hermione expected everyone to follow the rules.
It would not surprise me if Hermione achieves some sort of advanced state of Transfiguration. Krum did an almost-sort for the Tri-Wizard, and I can see that sparking her interest even more.
Prefect Marcus - Jan 17, 2005 7:00 pm (#1232 of 2486)
Is it significant that Hermione stated that they don't start learning Human Transfiguration until sixth year? Rowling seldom makes such statements without a reason.
Is Hermione going to become good at it? I wouldn't put it past her. She learns things so quickly.
If any of the trio are going to become animagi, I would say Hermione is the most likely. (1) She learns everything so quickly. (2) She seems mildly obsessed on the subject. (3) It is something new to learn. (4) Professor McGonagall, her role-model, is one.
MickeyCee3948 - Jan 17, 2005 7:40 pm (#1233 of 2486)
To Late Catherine, Healer Gwen was very upset with me at St. Mungo's but I promised that would be my last visit for at least a week so she forgave me.
I love Hermione. She is going to do anything to further her education. I think the harder something is, the faster she wants to learn it. She believes very little is beyond her reach. I hope she never over estimates her ability.
Mikie
Sorry Potions Mistress. Used the wrong word. P.S. Edited for spelling
Potions Mistress - Jan 17, 2005 7:53 pm (#1234 of 2486)
think the harder something is, the faster she wants to learn it. She believes very little is beyond her reach. I hope she never over evaluates her ability.--Mikie
I'm sorry Mikie, did you mean "under evaluate" or am I just so sleepy that I'm not understanding? :-)
I agree that Hermione would be the best candidate for an Animagus--she seems to have the ability to pick up a difficult skill like that. However, I doubt she'll go the MWPP route and do so illegally/without knowledge of someone (esp. Minerva).
~pm
Catherine - Jan 17, 2005 8:16 pm (#1235 of 2486)
Marcus makes good points about Hermione's abilities, and her motivation.
I have been a bit intrigued with her interest in the Twins' Headless Hats. One could argue that she is merely wondering how they work.
I like to think that Hermione has already figured that out, and knows how to take it to the next stage. So I wouldn't be surprised if Hermione doesn't need a cloak to be invisible, or tells Ron and Harry how to make themselves invisible even without Harry's Invisibility Cloak, even if the charm is short-lived.
Solitaire - Jan 17, 2005 9:34 pm (#1236 of 2486)
I can't really see Hermione transforming for the purpose of wanton mischief, a la MWPP or the Weasleys. She has worked too hard to build a reputation as a responsible and trustworthy student, and she respects the need for policy and procedure.
Having said that, I think this is one of the areas where Hermione has changed the most. In the very beginning, Hermione was almost what I would call "a pleaser." She needed the respect and praise of the adults in her world. She still believes implicitly in the need for rules and procedures when it can be shown why they need to be observed; however, I believe she has come to realize that there are times when the need or peril of a friend outweighs the importance of a rule. For one so young, she also seems to be able to discern rather accurately when such a need exists. JM2K, of course ...
Solitaire
constant vigilance - Jan 18, 2005 8:38 am (#1237 of 2486)
I agree that Hermione would be an excellent candidate for being an animagi. Although, she could ask Tonks about being Metamorphmagi, couldn't she? I know Tonks said the ability was very difficult to learn but that it was possible. In any event, Hermione is just too interested in transfigurations to not study the process. I just hope she doesn't end up a cat because, well, she's already been one! hah.
Potions Mistress - Jan 18, 2005 9:21 am (#1238 of 2486)
I thought that Tonks said that Metamorphmagi are born that way and it's not a skill that one can learn. I don't have my book, so I may not be remembering correctly.
~pm
constant vigilance - Jan 18, 2005 9:41 am (#1239 of 2486)
oh..I thought Tonks said people couldn't learn to do it without a wand.
Eponine - Jan 18, 2005 9:46 am (#1240 of 2486)
From OotP UK hardback p. 52 After Harry has asked if you can learn to be a metamorphmagus... 'Well, you'll have to learn the hard way, I'm afraid,' said Tonks. 'Metamorphmagi are really rare, they're born, not made. Most wizards need to use a wand, or potions, to change their appearance.'
So, I suppose that you cannot learn to be a metamorphmagus, but you can learn how to change your appearance with a wand or potions.
Catherine - Jan 18, 2005 9:47 am (#1241 of 2486)
What Tonks said was that most wizards need to use a wand or potions to change their appearance.
My understanding of that is that to be able to do it at will is what makes Tonks a metamorphmagus. It's a gift that one is born with, and not one to be learned. They are "born, not made."
EDIT: Cross-posted with Eponine. We've been doing that a lot today! **waves**
Choices - Jan 18, 2005 9:52 am (#1242 of 2486)
Yes, a metamorphmagus is born, not made, but a wizard can learn to do something similar using a wand or potion to change their appearance.
Joanne R. Reid - Jan 18, 2005 11:34 am (#1243 of 2486)
Constant Vigilance asked about the the form of Hermione's anamagi. I wonder if there is a relationship between the form of the Patronus and the form of the anamagus? Thus, Harry would be a stag, like James. Hermione would be an otter ... which seems most fitting, doesn't it? Thanks,
scoop2172000 - Jan 18, 2005 1:58 pm (#1244 of 2486)
I agree with Joanne: if Hermione were to become an anamagus, she'd likely be an otter, like her patronus, rather than a cat.
Potions Mistress - Jan 18, 2005 2:41 pm (#1245 of 2486)
Also, if anybody is interested, there was discussion awhile back on the DD about the relationship between one's animagus and patronus.
~pm
constant vigilance - Jan 18, 2005 3:25 pm (#1246 of 2486)
Thanks for the correction about the Metamorphmagus. yeah, I guess Hermione already knows how to change her appearance into that of another person considering she mastered the polyjuice potion.
I don't think it would be very useful for Hermione to turn into an otter. She would have a difficult time blending in to her surroundings as an otter. I mean part of the purpose of becoming an animal is to hide from one's enemies or spy on others. McGonagall as a cat is very useful to the order, just as Pettigrew being a rat allowed him to disappear. I know that people don't choose what they become given the James turning into a stag isn't all that useful for the above mentioned purposes, but JKR makes the decisions about who becomes what and why.
Muggle Doctor - Jan 18, 2005 7:15 pm (#1247 of 2486)
I was under the impression that Animagi were also born, not made, and it was not a matter of choice what they transformed into. Each may have transformed into the thing which suited him/her most in the mind of JKR, but they had no choice themselves as to what they became.
Sure, you can make yourself into anything (e.g. Krum's aborted attempt at a shark) with magic, but to will the transformation without your wand is another matter.
Prefect Marcus - Jan 18, 2005 7:48 pm (#1248 of 2486)
Animagi are made. We learn this from PoA. They have to undergo a dangerous transformation in order to be able to transform at will.
Now what they turn into is not controllable.
J Hood - Jan 18, 2005 8:42 pm (#1249 of 2486)
Where does it say that you can't control what you turn into. I thought the point of James and Sirius being a stag and a big dog was so that they could control Lupin on their nightime walks. If they had no control over the animagi then they could have done all that work for nothing.
Denise P. - Jan 18, 2005 8:45 pm (#1250 of 2486)
I believe JKR said that the wizard doesn't chose what animage form he or she takes. Let me see if I can find where she said it.
America Online chat transcript, AOL.com, 19 October 2000
Q: Does the animal one turns into as an Animagi reflect your personality?
A: Very well deduced, Narri! I personally would like to think that I would transform into an otter, which is my favorite animal. Imagine how horrible it would be if I turned out to be a cockroach!
That sounds even better Marcus. ^_~
Kelly Kapaoski - Jan 13, 2005 10:01 pm (#1202 of 2486)
one thing I have noticed about Hermione and her House Elf Liberation campaign is that she has never spoken to Dumbledore about freeing the house elves.
Gerald Costales - Jan 14, 2005 6:42 am (#1203 of 2486)
I think Dumbledore does support Freedom for House-Elves. But, I don't think Dumbledore would approve of SPEW. Dumbledore I think is establishing a generation of House-Elves that may be ready to accept Freedom. Why else have a Hundred Happy House-Elves working at Hogwarts. :-) GC
PS Unless Dumbledore is planning to arm them and have them fight in the War against Voldermort and Death Eaters. Look how Wizards reacted with Winky when they thought Winky had a Wand! A Hundred Wand wheeling House-Elves, they might not fight for Freedom but they'd fight to protect their lives and Hogwarts their Home. ;-) GC
Solitaire - Jan 14, 2005 8:30 am (#1204 of 2486)
If what Dobby did to Lucius is any indication, House-elves may not need "arming." Remember Dobby sent him flying down the stairs when he attempted to hurt Harry at the end of CoS. I believe House-elves must practice wandless magic.
Solitaire
Catherine - Jan 14, 2005 10:44 am (#1205 of 2486)
Gerald Costales, your last post made me think about whether Hermione has discussed S.P.E.W. or House Elves with Dumbledore.
Hermione seems pretty bold in her approach with S.P.E.W., so it is not out of the realm of possibility for her to have sought advice, or an audience with Dumbledore. Hermione also seems to be quoting Dumbledore when she admonishes people for their words/actions concerning Kreacher.
Somehow, though, I don't think that Dumbledore and Hermione have spoken about S.P.E.W.
Hollywand - Jan 14, 2005 3:08 pm (#1206 of 2486)
Don't you think the Hogwarts House Elves would mention to the Barmy Old Codger about their Hermione manufactured tea-cozy caps?
Ludicrous Patents Office - Jan 14, 2005 8:46 pm (#1207 of 2486)
Hermione took every opportunity to defend Kreacher and stick up for Winky. If she had the chance she would say something to Dumbledore. The Barmy Old Codger probably knows that Dobby is the only one cleaning Gryffindor. I expect he is the one the house elves report to. LPO
Solitaire - Jan 14, 2005 9:21 pm (#1208 of 2486)
Well, Hermione is certainly on her own odyssey of self-discovery. Perhaps Dumbledore has things for her to learn, as well. Hermione may very well have what it takes to become a Minister of Magic someday. If there is no law against Muggle-borns in that position, I can see her being awesome. As one who knows the Muggle world initmately, she is perfectly situated there. l.
But it is equally important that she not just accept other magical beings but truly understand the histories and perspectives that make them an integral part of the magical world. It is possible that she can only learn these things by experiencing what not to do. (I hope this makes sense.)
Solitaire
Hollywand - Jan 14, 2005 9:57 pm (#1209 of 2486)
I suspect Rowling is building us up for a "Fred and George" moment with the House Elves and the gradual accumulation of clothing Hermione is making for them.
When she started out with the Puking Pastilles, I could never guess they would completely confound Umbridge.
I suspect we will see a similar hilarious moment with the House Elves when they decide they want those socks and hats!
Gerald Costales - Jan 15, 2005 6:14 am (#1210 of 2486)
"I suspect we will see a similar hilarious moment with the House Elves when they decide they want those socks and hats!" Hollywand
I'm not to sure that moment will be hilarious. The moment that was building for Neville, I believe was when Neville decided to join the group going to the MoM. None of the six members of that group could have known that a rescue attempt of Sirius at the MoM would lead to a confrontation with Voldermort and the Death Eaters.
Neville ultimately proved himself a talented Wizard in the Battle at the MoM. And I can't wait to see Neville further evolve into an even better Wizard in Books 6 & 7. I think even Hermione proved herself as more than clever and bookish in that Battle. Though unintended, that Battle provided a moment of growth for all of them. But, I didn't see Ron, Luna, and Ginny growing as much from the Battle as Harry, Neville, and Hermione.
I think most of us may picture Ron by Harry's side in a tough situation. Ron was there with Harry when they meet Aragog and also when Gilderoy tried to blast both Harry and Ron with a Memory Charm. Ron was even with Harry when they both rescued Hermione, who was trapped by that Mountain Troll.
But in that Final Confrontation with Voldermort and the Death Eaters, I wouldn't be surprised that either Hermione or Neville is there instead of Ron. (Hopefully Ron is alive and just not present at that Final Confrontation. But, you never know.)
Also in those Dark moments Fawkes is present or his birdsong is in the background. The first instance was when Harry faced Tom Riddle and the Basilisk in the Chamber of Secrets. And the second instance was when Harry was trapped in the Graveyard surrounded by Death Eaters and facing Voldermort.
Harry is a better Wizard because of Hermione. (And Hermione would be a good match for Harry for that reason.) (Hope the monitors aren't reading. I hate posting in the "Ship" thread.!) ;-) GC
Tomoé - Jan 15, 2005 1:52 pm (#1211 of 2486)
We don't know about Ron, Luna and Ginny, maybe they get quite their share of experience. I mean, Luna was all there, once the fight began, she left la-la-land and was 100% in the real world, she did a concise report of the planet room events, she helped glue off the doors, she was efficient. Ginny was hurt, but she wasn't weak, she did make a crybaby of herself and slow the others down, she did not panick like she did with the Diary affair. Ron ... well ... Ron was out of his mind when he left the planet room, but so was Hermione at the time, I don't see it like fore-shadowing Ron's absence at the end, unless it fore-shadow Hermione's absence in the final showdown as well.
I mean, Ron was phisically out for the PS, CoS, PoA, GoF and OoP show down, but Hermione as well. She get a much better part than Ron in PoA, but was out for the Dementors part both time around. Ron was morepresent in CoS and Hermione had to make out for it.
Just my 2 knuts.
Edit in red
Gerald Costales - Jan 16, 2005 2:41 pm (#1212 of 2486)
". . . Ron was out of his mind when he left the planet room, but so was Hermione at the time, I don't see it like fore-shadowing Ron's absence at the end, unless it fore-shadow Hermione's absence in the final showdown as well." Tomoe'
In GoF, Harry finally got some support from others when confronting Voldermort. Ron, Hermione, Neville, Ginny, and even Luna were all there when Harry needed them the most. After the Sextet held the DE back, eventually Dumbledore and some of the Order came to the rescue. I believe those days of Harry facing Voldermort "One on One", as in PS & CoS, are gone.
Why won't Voldermort face Harry alone?
. . . 1. Voldermort has seen that Harry is fast becoming a Great Wizard.
. . . 2. The DA and the Order are on guard watching Harry.
Harry in the future will have someone watching and ready to come to his aid. (Whether the MoM will be watching Harry will depend on whose in charge at the MoM at the beginning of HBP.)
In fact by GoF & OotP, Voldermort has had a group of Death Eaters when facing Harry. Don't be fooled Voldermort didn't just want a crowd to witness Harry's death in the Graveyard. When the Brother Wands unlocked, the Death Eaters were there to finish Harry off. But fortunately both Voldermort and the Death Eaters failed to kill Harry. And in OotP it was just too convenient that Voldermort showed up after Lucius and the other Death Eaters had tried and failed to get the Prophecy from the Sextet.
But if Harry needed only one person by his side, I believe it would be either Hermione or Neville and not Ron. Why?
1. Hermione in OotP became bolder and less bookish. And Hermione can summon a Patronus. I believe her ability to summon a Patronus is a sign of Hermione shedding her old bookish Know-It-All persona and being ready to aid Harry when needed.
2. Neville is still tied to the Prophecy. I believe with a new Wand Neville will become a better Wizard. Neville also wants to avenge both his parents. Neville has long wanted to help the Trio. But by HBP, I believe Neville will finally be ready to aid Harry if needed.
I just don't believe Ron is the one that will be there with Harry at that Final Confrontation. Ron is neither weak or scared, I just don't feel he's right for that ultimate situation. ;-( GC
MickeyCee3948 - Jan 16, 2005 3:11 pm (#1213 of 2486)
I agree with you GC, I don't think Ron will be their for the final confrontation. But I believe for a different reason. It is my opinion that Ron will be lost to the trio at the end of HBP. I believe he will go out as a hero saving either Harry, Hermione or both of them. This will be the final nail in Voldemort's coffin as it will drive Harry to do whatever must be done to rid the WW of the Dark Lord and the DE's.
Mikie
Steve Newton - Jan 16, 2005 5:34 pm (#1214 of 2486)
As Ron said in SS "I am going to be a knight." I think that he will go down heroically, maybe dead but certainly out of action at some point. Maybe in HBP.
TomProffitt - Jan 16, 2005 7:22 pm (#1215 of 2486)
In the final confrontation between Harry and Lord Voldemort in book 7, I want to see the entire Wizarding World behind Harry and no one with Voldemort, or at least an appropriate symbolic reflection of that. Something like a member or two from each House, a few teachers, some OP members, a turned DE, and the new Minister of Magic. The symbol of the whole series should be the progression of Harry alone (a boy in the cupboard under the stairs) to a young man with the whole world at his side.
I expect instead to see Harry alone fighting Lord Voldemort one last time, one on one.
I don't think Hermione's role will be significantly more or less special than it always has been. Harry's friends are Harry's friends. They're friends, it doesn't matter whether or not they can beat up Death Eaters. And Harry certainly isn't going to choose his spouse based on her magical prowess ... and it won't be the best looking girl that'll have him either.
Solitaire - Jan 16, 2005 8:19 pm (#1216 of 2486)
I like your "ideal" scenario, Tom. I would love to see the same, since I believe it will require the entire Wizarding World working together--like the Sorting Hat says--to bring about peace. But even if Harry has most of the WW--the Order, the DA, and various other magical beings--standing beside, behind, and around him, I still believe there will have to be a final showdown in which Harry and Voldemort face each other alone, in wand-to-wand combat ... it just seems that is how it is destined to be. I hope I am wrong.
Solitaire
Gerald Costales - Jan 17, 2005 8:04 am (#1217 of 2486)
"And Harry certainly isn't going to choose his spouse based on her magical prowess ... and it won't be the best looking girl that'll have him either." TomProffitt
Gee, Tom I wonder who that might be. *cough* Hermione *cough*
"I still believe there will have to be a final showdown in which Harry and Voldemort face each other alone, in wand-to-wand combat ..." Solitaire
If it's a "Wand-on-Wand" showdown, then the circumstances of how and why Harry received his "Holly wand" and Voldermort his "Yew wand" need a closer examination. Like the Prophecy, those Wands choosing first Tom Riddle and then Harry seem like pre-ordained events and not just some random and coincidental events. And the fact that both their Wand's cores are from the tail feather of Fawkes adds to the sense of pre-ordained events.
Here's an alternative to a "Wand-on-Wand" showdown - Voldermort with his "Yew wand" and Harry "Wandless". If anyone will able to do "Wandless Magic", it will be Harry. (Especially since Harry may have used "Wandless Magic" already.) ;-) GC
Solitaire - Jan 17, 2005 10:05 am (#1218 of 2486)
Oh, I don't know. Given everything Dumbledore has said about him, it's possible that Voldemort may be capable of a bit of wandless magic himself. It is also possible that he may realize the problem with the wands and attempt to use another wand. I suspect he or his DEs may have several ... souvenirs of past "kills," perhaps? Then again, perhaps not.
Solitaire
MickeyCee3948 - Jan 17, 2005 11:36 am (#1219 of 2486)
Solitaire-Considering the ten years that he floated around from one body to another while just a vapor, I would say that he is pretty much capable of almost any "wandless" magic he might avail himself of.
GC and Tom you don't actually think Harry might eventually end up with Hermione do you. I mean Really! Don't tell anyone but I agree with you both.
Mikie
Choices - Jan 17, 2005 11:42 am (#1220 of 2486)
I think the reason Voldemort had to inhabit lower animals for so long was because he did not have a wand, couldn't hold a wand and couldn't do much wandless magic that would help him. I think there is a limit as to what can be done without a wand, although I do think that the more powerful the wizard, the more he can do. But even then, I still think it is somewhat limited.
Harry and Hermione - I just get good vibes about them and I think they are going to end up together.....they are just good for each other.
Solitaire - Jan 17, 2005 11:55 am (#1221 of 2486)
I wonder when he did get the ability to hold a wand. He certainly held one to kill Frank Bryce on the very last page of Chapter 1, GoF: He was screaming so loudly tht he never heard the words the thing in the chair spoke as it raised a wand. There was a flash of green light, a rushing sound, and Frank Bryce crumpled. He was dead before he hit the floor.
Someone--I can't remember who it was--suggested that perhaps Voldemort transformed into a sort of "golem" as an interim body, to make the trip back to Britain and await his rebirthing. Would he be able to hold a wand in that state? I don't know much about them ... I wish I could remember on which thread I read this.
As for inhabiting any animal--large or small--wouldn't that require the ability to do some fairly advanced magic, wandless or not? Just curious ...
Solitaire
TomProffitt - Jan 17, 2005 2:29 pm (#1222 of 2486)
"GC and Tom you don't actually think Harry might eventually end up with Hermione do you. I mean Really! Don't tell anyone but I agree with you both." --- Mikie
Oh no, my line was intended to indicate that even though we see Hermione as (what was the quote?) "the most capable witch of her age" it isn't any kind of a reason for her to be paired with Harry. Likewise Harry (and Ron) will outgrow their juvenile desire for "the best looking girl that will have them."
I'm a "Big Happy Weasley Family" devotee myself.
Choices - Jan 17, 2005 2:55 pm (#1223 of 2486)
Since we have never been told what sort of magic it requires to inhabit an animal, it is something about which we are going to have to guess, I suppose.
Prefect Marcus - Jan 17, 2005 3:54 pm (#1224 of 2486)
This "wandless magic to inhabit an animal" is fascinating, but it has little to do with Hermione, I'm afraid. Perhaps moving to another thread is in order?
MickeyCee3948 - Jan 17, 2005 4:29 pm (#1225 of 2486)
Prefect Marcus-But we were talking about how we think Hermione could possibly inhabit Crookshanks.
Mikie
Catherine - Jan 17, 2005 4:35 pm (#1226 of 2486)
Mikie, I must have missed that. I was scanning the last ten or so posts myself, trying to figure out where the thread was going, because I was confused.
I agree with Marcus that this thread needs to focus on Hermione. Let's get back on track.
Are you suggesting, Mikie, that Hermione can posess Crookshanks as Voldemort possesses Nagini? That's quite an interesting thought, and I would really like to see any textual evidence you might have.
MickeyCee3948 - Jan 17, 2005 4:45 pm (#1227 of 2486)
OK Catherine, you caught me we were off topic. I have slammed my head in the oven three times and ironed my hands. It won't happen again. The punishment hurts too much.
Mikie
Catherine - Jan 17, 2005 4:57 pm (#1228 of 2486)
Mikie, Ouch! I forbid you to hurt yourself, and that is an order.
We still need to get back on track.
I will start with something that will be SO obvious that you will groan. My husband keeps saying, "Hermione is being set up for something. What is it?"
He's something of a muggle, in that he doesn't reread the way I do, but he's read the books and seen the movies, and enjoys it all.
Hollywand - Jan 17, 2005 5:18 pm (#1229 of 2486)
Witches are classically thought to have "familiars". These are animal counterparts that are their companions, and the witch was also thought to inhabit the "familiar", especially at night. Cats are a classic "familiar" animal, so the association with Hermionie and Crookshanks being familiars, as well as Voldemort and Nagini as familiars are both plausible, even without the mention of wands.
Cats as witch familiars lent cats a reputation as animals that kill infants by sucking the life breath out of them. Lots of country folk in the not too distant past were very hostile to cats due to this superstition.
Mishaps need scapegoats, and isolated women were prime targets to be identified as witches.
Folk superstitions about the powers of snakes are also strange and hilarious. I read a very funny account of a snake specialist debunking myths about snakes, such as, "snakes can hold onto their tail and roll as a sort of hula hoop for long distances." Haha.
Solitaire - Jan 17, 2005 6:33 pm (#1230 of 2486)
I don't know, Hollywand ... that snake holding its tail and rolling along sounds a lot like your ouroboros, to me! Sorry, Catherine!
Just to keep things on track ... I think Hermione's interest in animagi could signal an interest in learning how to transform. We have already discussed her eligibility to apparate this year. I suspect she may also want to learn to transform. If her past performance in McGonagall's classes are any indication, she should be great at it.
Solitaire
Catherine - Jan 17, 2005 6:40 pm (#1231 of 2486)
That is interesting, Solitaire, because the way I read the passages was that Hermione expected everyone to follow the rules.
It would not surprise me if Hermione achieves some sort of advanced state of Transfiguration. Krum did an almost-sort for the Tri-Wizard, and I can see that sparking her interest even more.
Prefect Marcus - Jan 17, 2005 7:00 pm (#1232 of 2486)
Is it significant that Hermione stated that they don't start learning Human Transfiguration until sixth year? Rowling seldom makes such statements without a reason.
Is Hermione going to become good at it? I wouldn't put it past her. She learns things so quickly.
If any of the trio are going to become animagi, I would say Hermione is the most likely. (1) She learns everything so quickly. (2) She seems mildly obsessed on the subject. (3) It is something new to learn. (4) Professor McGonagall, her role-model, is one.
MickeyCee3948 - Jan 17, 2005 7:40 pm (#1233 of 2486)
To Late Catherine, Healer Gwen was very upset with me at St. Mungo's but I promised that would be my last visit for at least a week so she forgave me.
I love Hermione. She is going to do anything to further her education. I think the harder something is, the faster she wants to learn it. She believes very little is beyond her reach. I hope she never over estimates her ability.
Mikie
Sorry Potions Mistress. Used the wrong word. P.S. Edited for spelling
Potions Mistress - Jan 17, 2005 7:53 pm (#1234 of 2486)
think the harder something is, the faster she wants to learn it. She believes very little is beyond her reach. I hope she never over evaluates her ability.--Mikie
I'm sorry Mikie, did you mean "under evaluate" or am I just so sleepy that I'm not understanding? :-)
I agree that Hermione would be the best candidate for an Animagus--she seems to have the ability to pick up a difficult skill like that. However, I doubt she'll go the MWPP route and do so illegally/without knowledge of someone (esp. Minerva).
~pm
Catherine - Jan 17, 2005 8:16 pm (#1235 of 2486)
Marcus makes good points about Hermione's abilities, and her motivation.
I have been a bit intrigued with her interest in the Twins' Headless Hats. One could argue that she is merely wondering how they work.
I like to think that Hermione has already figured that out, and knows how to take it to the next stage. So I wouldn't be surprised if Hermione doesn't need a cloak to be invisible, or tells Ron and Harry how to make themselves invisible even without Harry's Invisibility Cloak, even if the charm is short-lived.
Solitaire - Jan 17, 2005 9:34 pm (#1236 of 2486)
I can't really see Hermione transforming for the purpose of wanton mischief, a la MWPP or the Weasleys. She has worked too hard to build a reputation as a responsible and trustworthy student, and she respects the need for policy and procedure.
Having said that, I think this is one of the areas where Hermione has changed the most. In the very beginning, Hermione was almost what I would call "a pleaser." She needed the respect and praise of the adults in her world. She still believes implicitly in the need for rules and procedures when it can be shown why they need to be observed; however, I believe she has come to realize that there are times when the need or peril of a friend outweighs the importance of a rule. For one so young, she also seems to be able to discern rather accurately when such a need exists. JM2K, of course ...
Solitaire
constant vigilance - Jan 18, 2005 8:38 am (#1237 of 2486)
I agree that Hermione would be an excellent candidate for being an animagi. Although, she could ask Tonks about being Metamorphmagi, couldn't she? I know Tonks said the ability was very difficult to learn but that it was possible. In any event, Hermione is just too interested in transfigurations to not study the process. I just hope she doesn't end up a cat because, well, she's already been one! hah.
Potions Mistress - Jan 18, 2005 9:21 am (#1238 of 2486)
I thought that Tonks said that Metamorphmagi are born that way and it's not a skill that one can learn. I don't have my book, so I may not be remembering correctly.
~pm
constant vigilance - Jan 18, 2005 9:41 am (#1239 of 2486)
oh..I thought Tonks said people couldn't learn to do it without a wand.
Eponine - Jan 18, 2005 9:46 am (#1240 of 2486)
From OotP UK hardback p. 52 After Harry has asked if you can learn to be a metamorphmagus... 'Well, you'll have to learn the hard way, I'm afraid,' said Tonks. 'Metamorphmagi are really rare, they're born, not made. Most wizards need to use a wand, or potions, to change their appearance.'
So, I suppose that you cannot learn to be a metamorphmagus, but you can learn how to change your appearance with a wand or potions.
Catherine - Jan 18, 2005 9:47 am (#1241 of 2486)
What Tonks said was that most wizards need to use a wand or potions to change their appearance.
My understanding of that is that to be able to do it at will is what makes Tonks a metamorphmagus. It's a gift that one is born with, and not one to be learned. They are "born, not made."
EDIT: Cross-posted with Eponine. We've been doing that a lot today! **waves**
Choices - Jan 18, 2005 9:52 am (#1242 of 2486)
Yes, a metamorphmagus is born, not made, but a wizard can learn to do something similar using a wand or potion to change their appearance.
Joanne R. Reid - Jan 18, 2005 11:34 am (#1243 of 2486)
Constant Vigilance asked about the the form of Hermione's anamagi. I wonder if there is a relationship between the form of the Patronus and the form of the anamagus? Thus, Harry would be a stag, like James. Hermione would be an otter ... which seems most fitting, doesn't it? Thanks,
scoop2172000 - Jan 18, 2005 1:58 pm (#1244 of 2486)
I agree with Joanne: if Hermione were to become an anamagus, she'd likely be an otter, like her patronus, rather than a cat.
Potions Mistress - Jan 18, 2005 2:41 pm (#1245 of 2486)
Also, if anybody is interested, there was discussion awhile back on the DD about the relationship between one's animagus and patronus.
~pm
constant vigilance - Jan 18, 2005 3:25 pm (#1246 of 2486)
Thanks for the correction about the Metamorphmagus. yeah, I guess Hermione already knows how to change her appearance into that of another person considering she mastered the polyjuice potion.
I don't think it would be very useful for Hermione to turn into an otter. She would have a difficult time blending in to her surroundings as an otter. I mean part of the purpose of becoming an animal is to hide from one's enemies or spy on others. McGonagall as a cat is very useful to the order, just as Pettigrew being a rat allowed him to disappear. I know that people don't choose what they become given the James turning into a stag isn't all that useful for the above mentioned purposes, but JKR makes the decisions about who becomes what and why.
Muggle Doctor - Jan 18, 2005 7:15 pm (#1247 of 2486)
I was under the impression that Animagi were also born, not made, and it was not a matter of choice what they transformed into. Each may have transformed into the thing which suited him/her most in the mind of JKR, but they had no choice themselves as to what they became.
Sure, you can make yourself into anything (e.g. Krum's aborted attempt at a shark) with magic, but to will the transformation without your wand is another matter.
Prefect Marcus - Jan 18, 2005 7:48 pm (#1248 of 2486)
Animagi are made. We learn this from PoA. They have to undergo a dangerous transformation in order to be able to transform at will.
Now what they turn into is not controllable.
J Hood - Jan 18, 2005 8:42 pm (#1249 of 2486)
Where does it say that you can't control what you turn into. I thought the point of James and Sirius being a stag and a big dog was so that they could control Lupin on their nightime walks. If they had no control over the animagi then they could have done all that work for nothing.
Denise P. - Jan 18, 2005 8:45 pm (#1250 of 2486)
I believe JKR said that the wizard doesn't chose what animage form he or she takes. Let me see if I can find where she said it.
America Online chat transcript, AOL.com, 19 October 2000
Q: Does the animal one turns into as an Animagi reflect your personality?
A: Very well deduced, Narri! I personally would like to think that I would transform into an otter, which is my favorite animal. Imagine how horrible it would be if I turned out to be a cockroach!
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Eponine - Jan 18, 2005 8:47 pm (#1251 of 2486)
From the World Book Day chat March 2004
kelly_holland: When you turn into an Animagus, can you choose what animal you become? Or does this get "assigned" to you? JK Rowling replies -> No, you can't choose. You become the animal that suits you best. Imagine the humiliation when you finally transform after years of study and find that you most closely resemble a warthog.
Denise P. - Jan 18, 2005 8:50 pm (#1252 of 2486)
Yep, the World Day absolutely confirms it although the one I posted implies it. My, we are quick on the quotes
Ludicrous Patents Office - Jan 18, 2005 8:57 pm (#1253 of 2486)
Denise and Eponine good job! Have a couple butterbeers. I like that JKR likes otters and she gave that to Hermione as a patronus. What would Hermione be? Owls are supposed to be clever, so are foxes. LPO
Denise P. - Jan 18, 2005 9:00 pm (#1254 of 2486)
Didn't we see Hermione had an Otter in OoP? Wait, that was her patronus.
Solitaire - Jan 18, 2005 9:55 pm (#1255 of 2486)
I'm not sure if there is any correlation, but so far, the animagi we have seen seem awfully appropriate for the wizards who transform into them--if you ask me.
Rita's little beetle is perfect for someone who needs to be "a fly on the wall." I know a beetle isn't a fly, but perhaps it has less chance of being swatted than a fly.
I found this information about the stag: "the stag was regarded as the most noble and proud of animals, and would therefore be a most appropriate symbol of a King and his leadership" ... Could t his be a suggestion of royalty in the Potter line? Even better is this link to a page on the meanings of symbols. It has this to say about stags: "One who will not fight unless provoked; peace and harmony." It doesn't exactly square with what we see in Snape's pensieve, does it?
Information about the dog on the symbols page says the following: "Courage, vigilance, and loyalty" It certainly sounds like Sirius to me.
Since I believe Snape will be a bat, I found this information about the bat kind of interesting: "Awareness of the powers of darkness and chaos." Another site: "Guardian of the night, cleaner, obscurity, messenger, double nature, happiness, good luck, longevity, peace; also -- hypocrisy, melancholy, revenge, wisdom."
McGonagall's cat symbolizes "Liberty, vigilance, forecast, and courage," all of which are great descriptors of her.
Peter's rat ... well, rats mean different things to different cultures at different times, I suppose. I liked this description of them for Peter: "Because of their destructive ways, mice and rats were considered unclean creatures of ill omen. They were symbols of evil, pestilence, death, decay, infirmity, plague, demons, and the Devil. Like Satan and his minions, mice and rats were believed to thrive off the misfortunes of the children of God and to enjoy bringing humans to ruin. They were sometimes bold enough to nibble at the Tree of Life itself."
One animal that caught my eye where Hermione was concerned was the hummingbird ... for obvious reasons: "Messenger, stopper of time, optimism, sweetness." I think Hermione would probably want to be a larger animal, but that "stopper of time" caught my eye!
Okay, I'll stop now!
Solitaire
MickeyCee3948 - Jan 18, 2005 10:54 pm (#1256 of 2486)
Great Post, Solitaire. Could you see if they have anything about wolves. The we would have all 4 of the marauders.
Mikie
Solitaire - Jan 18, 2005 11:54 pm (#1257 of 2486)
The wolf: "Reward from perseverance in long sieges and/or hard industry." Sounds a lot like Remus to me! I'll look for more, but I'll post it on Remus's thread.
librarian314 - Jan 19, 2005 9:41 am (#1258 of 2486)
Hey all!
I think that the otter is just fine for Hermione. Each animal can be useful in its own place or time. Dogs, cats, bugs, and rats blend in well with most surroundings and could be the most useful for spying. Stags could also have been useful for treks into the back country, covering more miles than smaller creatures and searching for hidden bases. Otters would be useful in water environments that would be impossible for cats, rats, certain bugs and all but the most intrepid dogs ;-).
I don't know that one's Animagus and Patronus would be the same though. We've not seen any indication of this at all in canon. The people that we know are Animagi, we don't know what their Patronus is and vice versa. (Very frustrating that; I hope we find out more soon. :-) )
According to the heraldry website Solitaire cited above, a fox (One who will use all that he/she may possess of wisdom and wit in his/her own defense (I’d extend this to include her friends as well.)), a falcon (One who does not rest until objective achieved), an owl (One who is vigilant and of acute wit), or even a spider (Wisdom, labour, and prudence. Poor Ron! ;-) ) may be a better choice than the otter (One who lives life to the fullest) for Hermione’s Animagus form to take.
*michelle the librarian**
Prefect Marcus - Jan 19, 2005 11:16 am (#1259 of 2486)
Ha! Ha! Can you imagine if she turned into a giant spider! I would pay to see the look on Ron's face.
:-D :-D :-D
Joanne R. Reid - Jan 19, 2005 12:58 pm (#1260 of 2486)
The only mismatch I see is that otters are noted for their playfulness. Hermione doesn't really have a playful side ... at least, not yet.
Muggle Doctor - Jan 19, 2005 1:48 pm (#1261 of 2486)
The only problem I've seen with "Made, not born" is Hermione's mention of how few Animagi there have been in the past century. If anyone could do it, probably anyone would - perhaps some wizards are born with a capability to find the transformation much easier. That would explain why Sirius and James (two of the brightest wizards of their generation) were able to manage it and to help Peter (who doesn't look like the brightest) to do the same: three in one house of one year at Hogwarts is an unusual concentration, based on how many (or few) others there were.
scoop2172000 - Jan 19, 2005 2:23 pm (#1262 of 2486)
There's a tiny number of animagi registerd with the Ministry -- registered being the operative word.
I wonder how many illegal unregistered ones are running around. Rita Skeeter is an example. She doesn't strike me as being a particularly powerful witch, but she knows enough magic to transform herself.
Two kids (James and Sirius) figured out how to do it while still students. Maybe the transformation isn't exceptionally hard after all.
I could see Hermione figuring out how to become an animagus. I wonder if Harry and Ron would try too. Harry's probably got the aptitude to do it. Together, maybe he and Hermione could help Ron become an animagus too.
Eric Bailey - Jan 19, 2005 2:39 pm (#1263 of 2486)
JKR did say something about an animagus form being related to your patronus, and an otter or a stag are pretty useless things to be able to turn into, so we'll likely not see any animagi among the Trio.
Catherine - Jan 19, 2005 2:54 pm (#1264 of 2486)
Eric,
I am not able to find a quote in which JKR says that one's animagus and patronus form are related. Can you help me with that?
Also, I am not sure that James found turning into a stag useless.
An otter animagus form would be useful for navigating water, for example, so I am not sure that it would be useless.
Julia. - Jan 19, 2005 2:58 pm (#1265 of 2486)
Catherine, I don't think she's said this. Here's the list of Patroni and Animagi quotes from Quick Quotes.
Catherine - Jan 19, 2005 3:49 pm (#1266 of 2486)
Julia,
Thanks for the link. The information therein fits with what I remembered.
Solitaire - Jan 19, 2005 11:02 pm (#1267 of 2486)
We have met (that we know of) 5 animagi: McGonagall, Sirius, James, Peter, Rita. Four of them are unregistered. This is taking a HUGE leap--and I realize there is no reason to suspect this--but if we were to assume that for every registered animagus there were four unregistered animagi ... there could be quite a few around. I wonder ... is Snape an animagus? I keep seeing him as a large bat. I can't help it!
Solitaire
Kelly Kapaoski - Jan 20, 2005 2:46 am (#1268 of 2486)
I think the whole idea of a persons Patronus matching their potential animal form completely plausable
Prefect Marcus - Jan 20, 2005 4:03 am (#1269 of 2486)
Somewhere in the books is a quote about how the transfigurion that turns one into an animagus can go horribly wrong. If this be the case, is there any doubt why there are so few takers?
Catherine - Jan 20, 2005 6:59 am (#1270 of 2486)
I think that's a good point, Marcus.
I don't know how poor Agnes ended up in St. Mungo's as a dog, but something obviously went wrong in her case. Maybe she experimented with Polyjuice Potion and some dog hair fell in? Although Madame Pomfrey was able to cure Hermione, so that's probably not it.
Viktor Krum ended up as only half-shark. He's lucky that he was able to rid himself of it; otherwise I imagine that he'd have to stay in water in order to breathe, assuming he was using gills.
I could see Hermione being very cautious about the Animagus Transfiguration. She has already spent weeks in the hospital wing in a catlike state. I'm sure would hate to miss any of her lessons what with N.E.W.T.s coming up.
librarian314 - Jan 20, 2005 8:03 am (#1271 of 2486)
Hey all!
My husband and I sometimes play the "Truly useless Animagus form game" in which we try to come up with the most useless critters imaginable. They tend to be things like amoebas, earthworms, sea slugs, coral, etc. I'd much rather be a stag or an otter (or spider or beetle) than an earthworm. ;-)
Since I first read the series I got the idea that unregistered Animagi may well be all over the place. The wizard world seems to have quite a lot of rules that people of all stripes ignore. Mr. Weasley has an enchanted car; unregistered Animagi make up the majority of the ones we've met; and government officials set dementors loose in Muggle suburbia, to mention three off the top of my head.
Even Hermione, who was very bent on upholding the rules has learned that to get along in the wizard world you have to ignore the rules sometimes. Thus the sneaking into the restricted section of the library, brewing polyjuice potion, stealing potions ingredients, and starting the DA.
*michelle the librarian**
Ludicrous Patents Office - Jan 20, 2005 7:48 pm (#1272 of 2486)
Even Professor McGonagall has bended the rules. She gave Harry a broomstick and allowed him on the house team. I think there are probably several unregistrared animagus in each generation. Hermione could work it out, of that I have no doubt. I think she will be to busy to. She will find a few other rules to bend or go around. LPO
Steve Newton - Jan 21, 2005 7:29 am (#1273 of 2486)
LPO, I don't think that McGonagall bent the rules to get Harry on the team. I think that she asked for what we would call a waiver and it was granted. Otherwise, all of the matches that Harry played in would have been forfeited for using an illegal player. I'm sure the Slytherins would have pointed this out immediately as there is no way that Snape didn't notice that Harry was on the team.
Choices - Jan 21, 2005 9:26 am (#1274 of 2486)
I was always under the impression that first years never made the house team due to lack of talent or skill, not because it was against the rules. I do know first years are not allowed to have broomsticks, so there McGonagall did have to get permission for Harry to have one. McGonagall seems more than willing to go to bat for students - like she helped Hermione to be able to take all the classes she wanted by getting permission for her to use the time-turner.
Ludicrous Patents Office - Jan 21, 2005 8:23 pm (#1275 of 2486)
You are right Steve and Choices. McGonagall got permission for Harry to have his broom and be on the team. LPO
Kelly Kapaoski - Jan 23, 2005 1:24 pm (#1276 of 2486)
Accually 1st years are not allowed to have brooms (excluding the occational exception every centery or so)
Muggle Doctor - Jan 23, 2005 2:33 pm (#1277 of 2486)
Malfoy to Flitwick: "Potter has a broom, sir."
Flitwick: "Yes, yes! Professor McGonagall told me about the special circumstances..." (or words to that effect) (PS/SS)
Clearly, since the staff make the rules, they are also permitted to make exceptions. First Years are usually not on quidditch teams due to skill deficiencies - but seeing as this one was good enough, it followed that he must be permitted to have his own broom. (It can certainly be argued, however, that a lot of favouritism was applied to give it to him - the money almost certainly came out of Dumbledore's pocket.)
Prefect Marcus - Jan 23, 2005 3:31 pm (#1278 of 2486)
Muggle Doctor - [T]he money almost certainly came out of Dumbledore's pocket
Really? I always assumed it came out of McGonagall's pocket, or out of the discretionary Gryffindor account she undoubtedly has.
Catherine - Jan 23, 2005 4:19 pm (#1279 of 2486)
I've always assumed that the money was from a Gryffindor Slush Fund, perhaps from generous Alumni, or from Minerva herself.
It never really occurred to me that it would be from Dumbledore. Certainly if Draco's father can buy a team brooms, someone could, theoretically, donate funds to buy a player a broom.
Muggle Doctor - Jan 23, 2005 5:07 pm (#1280 of 2486)
My assumption was based upon the fact that, like the gift of Harry's invisibility cloak, the note about the broom (in the book, anyway) came unsigned, but was almost certainly from Dumbledore.
I can see Dumbledore doing something generous like this for Harry, as partial compensation for having submitted him to the tender (??) mercies (?????) of the Dursleys for 10 years. Your comments on general Gryffindor funds are well taken, and certainly they could be listed under "Expenses, Quidditch, equipment."
Solitaire - Jan 23, 2005 5:55 pm (#1281 of 2486)
I always assumed it was from McGonagall, too. She was so excited to have a Seeker for her house team! BTW, why are we talking about Harry's broom on Hermione's thread? LOL Just wondered ...
Choices - Jan 23, 2005 6:53 pm (#1282 of 2486)
Because Hermione, in her never ending quest for knowledge, would also be interested in knowing who gave Harry his first broom. LOL I vote with the McGonagall bunch.
Ludicrous Patents Office - Jan 23, 2005 7:05 pm (#1283 of 2486)
Good save Choices. I vote for McGonagall also. Hermione admires McGonagall. Someday when Hermione is a teacher she will bend the rules to help someone out. LPO
Archangel - Jan 23, 2005 7:46 pm (#1284 of 2486)
And say to herself, "I can't believe I just did that."
Prefect Marcus - Jan 23, 2005 9:27 pm (#1285 of 2486)
The Nimbus 2000 came with a letter from McGonagall telling Harry not to open it in the Great Hall. It is the Firebolt that arrived sans note.
As Harry stated in GoF, "Dumbledore was just passing it [the invisibility cloak] on to me. He wouldn't spend hundreds of Galleons on me. He can't go giving students stuff like this--", and I agree. He has to represent the whole school and not show favoritism at all. Buying the top-of-the-line racing broom for a first year would definitely be that.
And don't forget that he was already worried that he might have feelings for Harry that will get in the way of the prophecy.
And finally, Harry never once questioned where the Nimbus came from. He did question who sent the Firebolt, however.
No, it makes far more sense for it to have been McGonagall's doing.
Hermione is already bending the rules so who needs to be a teacher to bend them. :-)
Solitaire - Jan 23, 2005 11:56 pm (#1286 of 2486)
LOL to Choices and LPO!! I like that! I'm very impressed and agree wholeheartedly!
Joanne R. Reid - Jan 24, 2005 11:28 am (#1287 of 2486)
I agree with Perfect Marcus, et. al., regarding the purchaser of Harry's Nimbus 2000. Dumbledore couldn't play favorites. Lucius Malfoy was still in control of the Governors at that time. He'd had raised a huge stink.
It had to be Minerva. However, whether she got it from a special fund or paid for it herself is a matter of question. Certainly, she liked Harry and truly wanted to win ... if for no other reason that to rub Severus' nose in it. And, there was a precedent, so the rule had its exceptions.
However, with regard to the Invisibility Cloak, let's remember that it belonged to James Potter. DD was just returning it to its rightful owner.
Thanks,
Bathilda - Jan 25, 2005 7:57 am (#1288 of 2486)
McGonagal has a special place in her heart for Harry. She checked out the muggles (dursely's) all day on the day after the Potter's were killed. She didn't want Harry to stay there at all citing them as "the worst kind of muggles"...but I digress.
HERMIONE... has this thread discussed the fact that the sorting considered putting Hermione in Ravenclaw? In Oop in the Room of Requirement, I think, she gives everyone the charmed Galleons...they are aghast that she can perform a protean charm, and wonder why she isn't a Ravenclaw. She says that the sorting hat had thought of that, but decided on Gryfindor. We know that the sorting hat is a smart bugger; perhaps he could see Hermione's usefulness to Harry? My theory is that she asked to be in Gryfindor in the same way that Harry asked not to be in Slytherin. Hermione says on the train to Hogwarts, I think, that "Gryfindor sounds like the best by far", and that's the house she wants to be in.
Could Hermione end up with powers related to Divination? That would be sweet irony for her! She hates that branch, but she's forced to believe in prophecies after OoP. I think it would be funny if from time to time, Hermione is blessed with a vision or two. I wonder though if Hermione will have any special powers in addition to her rather large brain...
Eponine - Jan 25, 2005 8:09 am (#1289 of 2486)
Well, Hermione was sorted before Harry, so unless the Hat could see into the future I don't think she was put into Gryffindor for Harry's sake. She could very well have asked to be put there.
And Hermione ending up with divining powers? That would be ironic.
Ydnam96 - Jan 25, 2005 8:37 am (#1290 of 2486)
I think Hermione is clever, no doubt. But like Neville she may have "hidden" Gryffindor qualities that we haven't seen yet.
Although, I think she has proved herself to be pretty brave and loyal and she cares more about goodness than smarts, you know the whole "books and cleverness" bit she tells Harry in SS. Ravenclaws tend to be very impressed with their smartness right? I don't think she thinks being smart is everything.
Snuffles - Jan 25, 2005 8:59 am (#1291 of 2486)
I think just about every student has qualities for all 4 houses its just that the hat chooses the house they have MOST qualities. Hermione is certainly clever enough to be in Ravenclaw its just she has more qualities for Gryffindor.
Not sure if that makes sense, im at work and it keeps interfering with my Potter life!
Bathilda - Jan 25, 2005 11:06 am (#1292 of 2486)
yes, Snuffles, I think everyone has some of all the house traits, too. I also think that Hermione has shown bravery and loyalty PLENTY to have put her in Gryfindor. I just wonder if her desire to be in Gryfindor got her in, as the desire to NOT be a Slytherin made Harry NOT a Slytherin... that makes sense to me, though the syntax is a bit off. One at preschool, and the other asleep....I FINALLY have some moments for ME, and I can't make my head work!!! ARGH.
Eric Bailey - Jan 25, 2005 2:29 pm (#1293 of 2486)
I think it was the desire to be in Gryffindor that was the deciding factor with Hermione. Luna, after all, has proven to be brave and loyal, joining in the DoM situation when she had no real personal stake in it, but she's still very much a Ravenclaw. One thing, though, that seperates Luna from her Gryffindor collegues in the Sextet is her emotional detachment. Harsh words don't phase her the way they do Hermione, so that could well be a Ravenclaw personality trait. One would need a degree of emotional control to survive the Ravenclaw commom room, I would think.
Catherine - Jan 25, 2005 2:52 pm (#1294 of 2486)
One would need a degree of emotional control to survive the Ravenclaw commom room, I would think. --Eric
Hmm. Cho probably isn't doing so well, then. I think emotional control is a trait that is important to the plot in OoP, and one that Harry needs to learn more than Hermione does.
I think that Luna is especially detached, not that Hermione is fazed by words. In JKR's own words, Luna is "out to lunch." Hermione did have hurt feelings when Snape called her names in front of the whole class in PoA, and made fun of her teeth in GoF, but I think many students would have, too. Hermione was always the person telling Harry to ignore the taunts in GoF.
Prefect Marcus - Jan 25, 2005 5:04 pm (#1295 of 2486)
Don't forget what Hermione values the most. Remember her little speech to Harry when they were going after the stone? She pooh-poohed her intellect and said Harry's traits are far more valuable. So the Hat put her among students who value the same things she does.
Catherine - Jan 25, 2005 5:16 pm (#1296 of 2486)
Hermione values her friends, and she does value bravery.
I'm reminded of Hagrid's words in PoA when he admonishes Ron and Harry that he would have thought that they would have valued a friend over a rat and a broomstick.
Hermione is extremely loyal, and is strong enough to make her friends angry at her if she thinks that the situation is dire. She was willing to put the full Body-Bind on Neville in SS, and willing to tell McGonagall about the Firebolt in PoA.
There are all kinds of courage, and Hermione has them in spades.
Wand Maker - Jan 25, 2005 5:50 pm (#1297 of 2486)
There are all kinds of courage, and Hermione has them in spades. - Catherine
Dumbledore said that it takes as much courage to stand up to your friends as your enemies.
Hermione, being more mature for her age than her classmates has shown her courage more than any other, save for Harry.
I think that Harry consciously recognizes Hermione's actions more readily than Ron. Ron's bickering with Hermione is probably clouding his vision as he really likes Hermione but hasn't yet reached the emotional maturity to accept it.
I wouldn't be surprised if in the next book Hermione suggests that the DA try Occulmency, at least the part of controlling emotions. It could be enough to throw the DE or the DN off if they find themselves in a tight situation.
Solitaire - Jan 28, 2005 2:26 am (#1298 of 2486)
The reason Harry was instructed in Occlumency was to block intrusions into his mind by Voldemort--obviously a skilled Legilimens. It was not until the snake attack on Mr. Weasley that the extent of the mind connection between Harry and Voldemort became apparent--to both sides.
I do not see how anyone could really "practice" Occlumency except in company with someone who was actually a Legilimens. How would they know if anyone were entering--or attempting to enter--their minds? It took a while for Harry to understand this. Even if kids did practice, how would they know if they were successfully blocking intrusions, unless someone were actually attempting to intrude? It would require someone to make attempts to intrude into their individual minds in order to see if they really have mastered the skill. As far as we know, we have not yet met any kids who possess this ability--only Voldemort, Dumbledore, Snape, and possibly (it has been suggested) Remus. This seems to be something one would have to study one-on-one with Snape or Dumbledore, in order to know if there is a reason to need it or whether they are mastering it.
Solitaire
Bathilda - Jan 28, 2005 3:47 pm (#1299 of 2486)
Well, there is a spell involved. At least Snape has to use his wand to "intrude" on Harry. The students could at least attempt the spell and see what happens. It could be that Voldy, etc., don't need their wands to do it--but that might be for another thread.
Wand Maker - Jan 28, 2005 8:27 pm (#1300 of 2486)
I was just thinking that Hermione likes to be very prepared about things. I had a mental picture of Hermione having the DA sitting crosslegged on the cushions, saying in a calm voice "Clear your minds. Let yourself drift off to a quiet place..." and seeing people looking at each other thinking she has gone off the deep end.
From the World Book Day chat March 2004
kelly_holland: When you turn into an Animagus, can you choose what animal you become? Or does this get "assigned" to you? JK Rowling replies -> No, you can't choose. You become the animal that suits you best. Imagine the humiliation when you finally transform after years of study and find that you most closely resemble a warthog.
Denise P. - Jan 18, 2005 8:50 pm (#1252 of 2486)
Yep, the World Day absolutely confirms it although the one I posted implies it. My, we are quick on the quotes
Ludicrous Patents Office - Jan 18, 2005 8:57 pm (#1253 of 2486)
Denise and Eponine good job! Have a couple butterbeers. I like that JKR likes otters and she gave that to Hermione as a patronus. What would Hermione be? Owls are supposed to be clever, so are foxes. LPO
Denise P. - Jan 18, 2005 9:00 pm (#1254 of 2486)
Didn't we see Hermione had an Otter in OoP? Wait, that was her patronus.
Solitaire - Jan 18, 2005 9:55 pm (#1255 of 2486)
I'm not sure if there is any correlation, but so far, the animagi we have seen seem awfully appropriate for the wizards who transform into them--if you ask me.
Rita's little beetle is perfect for someone who needs to be "a fly on the wall." I know a beetle isn't a fly, but perhaps it has less chance of being swatted than a fly.
I found this information about the stag: "the stag was regarded as the most noble and proud of animals, and would therefore be a most appropriate symbol of a King and his leadership" ... Could t his be a suggestion of royalty in the Potter line? Even better is this link to a page on the meanings of symbols. It has this to say about stags: "One who will not fight unless provoked; peace and harmony." It doesn't exactly square with what we see in Snape's pensieve, does it?
Information about the dog on the symbols page says the following: "Courage, vigilance, and loyalty" It certainly sounds like Sirius to me.
Since I believe Snape will be a bat, I found this information about the bat kind of interesting: "Awareness of the powers of darkness and chaos." Another site: "Guardian of the night, cleaner, obscurity, messenger, double nature, happiness, good luck, longevity, peace; also -- hypocrisy, melancholy, revenge, wisdom."
McGonagall's cat symbolizes "Liberty, vigilance, forecast, and courage," all of which are great descriptors of her.
Peter's rat ... well, rats mean different things to different cultures at different times, I suppose. I liked this description of them for Peter: "Because of their destructive ways, mice and rats were considered unclean creatures of ill omen. They were symbols of evil, pestilence, death, decay, infirmity, plague, demons, and the Devil. Like Satan and his minions, mice and rats were believed to thrive off the misfortunes of the children of God and to enjoy bringing humans to ruin. They were sometimes bold enough to nibble at the Tree of Life itself."
One animal that caught my eye where Hermione was concerned was the hummingbird ... for obvious reasons: "Messenger, stopper of time, optimism, sweetness." I think Hermione would probably want to be a larger animal, but that "stopper of time" caught my eye!
Okay, I'll stop now!
Solitaire
MickeyCee3948 - Jan 18, 2005 10:54 pm (#1256 of 2486)
Great Post, Solitaire. Could you see if they have anything about wolves. The we would have all 4 of the marauders.
Mikie
Solitaire - Jan 18, 2005 11:54 pm (#1257 of 2486)
The wolf: "Reward from perseverance in long sieges and/or hard industry." Sounds a lot like Remus to me! I'll look for more, but I'll post it on Remus's thread.
librarian314 - Jan 19, 2005 9:41 am (#1258 of 2486)
Hey all!
I think that the otter is just fine for Hermione. Each animal can be useful in its own place or time. Dogs, cats, bugs, and rats blend in well with most surroundings and could be the most useful for spying. Stags could also have been useful for treks into the back country, covering more miles than smaller creatures and searching for hidden bases. Otters would be useful in water environments that would be impossible for cats, rats, certain bugs and all but the most intrepid dogs ;-).
I don't know that one's Animagus and Patronus would be the same though. We've not seen any indication of this at all in canon. The people that we know are Animagi, we don't know what their Patronus is and vice versa. (Very frustrating that; I hope we find out more soon. :-) )
According to the heraldry website Solitaire cited above, a fox (One who will use all that he/she may possess of wisdom and wit in his/her own defense (I’d extend this to include her friends as well.)), a falcon (One who does not rest until objective achieved), an owl (One who is vigilant and of acute wit), or even a spider (Wisdom, labour, and prudence. Poor Ron! ;-) ) may be a better choice than the otter (One who lives life to the fullest) for Hermione’s Animagus form to take.
*michelle the librarian**
Prefect Marcus - Jan 19, 2005 11:16 am (#1259 of 2486)
Ha! Ha! Can you imagine if she turned into a giant spider! I would pay to see the look on Ron's face.
:-D :-D :-D
Joanne R. Reid - Jan 19, 2005 12:58 pm (#1260 of 2486)
The only mismatch I see is that otters are noted for their playfulness. Hermione doesn't really have a playful side ... at least, not yet.
Muggle Doctor - Jan 19, 2005 1:48 pm (#1261 of 2486)
The only problem I've seen with "Made, not born" is Hermione's mention of how few Animagi there have been in the past century. If anyone could do it, probably anyone would - perhaps some wizards are born with a capability to find the transformation much easier. That would explain why Sirius and James (two of the brightest wizards of their generation) were able to manage it and to help Peter (who doesn't look like the brightest) to do the same: three in one house of one year at Hogwarts is an unusual concentration, based on how many (or few) others there were.
scoop2172000 - Jan 19, 2005 2:23 pm (#1262 of 2486)
There's a tiny number of animagi registerd with the Ministry -- registered being the operative word.
I wonder how many illegal unregistered ones are running around. Rita Skeeter is an example. She doesn't strike me as being a particularly powerful witch, but she knows enough magic to transform herself.
Two kids (James and Sirius) figured out how to do it while still students. Maybe the transformation isn't exceptionally hard after all.
I could see Hermione figuring out how to become an animagus. I wonder if Harry and Ron would try too. Harry's probably got the aptitude to do it. Together, maybe he and Hermione could help Ron become an animagus too.
Eric Bailey - Jan 19, 2005 2:39 pm (#1263 of 2486)
JKR did say something about an animagus form being related to your patronus, and an otter or a stag are pretty useless things to be able to turn into, so we'll likely not see any animagi among the Trio.
Catherine - Jan 19, 2005 2:54 pm (#1264 of 2486)
Eric,
I am not able to find a quote in which JKR says that one's animagus and patronus form are related. Can you help me with that?
Also, I am not sure that James found turning into a stag useless.
An otter animagus form would be useful for navigating water, for example, so I am not sure that it would be useless.
Julia. - Jan 19, 2005 2:58 pm (#1265 of 2486)
Catherine, I don't think she's said this. Here's the list of Patroni and Animagi quotes from Quick Quotes.
Catherine - Jan 19, 2005 3:49 pm (#1266 of 2486)
Julia,
Thanks for the link. The information therein fits with what I remembered.
Solitaire - Jan 19, 2005 11:02 pm (#1267 of 2486)
We have met (that we know of) 5 animagi: McGonagall, Sirius, James, Peter, Rita. Four of them are unregistered. This is taking a HUGE leap--and I realize there is no reason to suspect this--but if we were to assume that for every registered animagus there were four unregistered animagi ... there could be quite a few around. I wonder ... is Snape an animagus? I keep seeing him as a large bat. I can't help it!
Solitaire
Kelly Kapaoski - Jan 20, 2005 2:46 am (#1268 of 2486)
I think the whole idea of a persons Patronus matching their potential animal form completely plausable
Prefect Marcus - Jan 20, 2005 4:03 am (#1269 of 2486)
Somewhere in the books is a quote about how the transfigurion that turns one into an animagus can go horribly wrong. If this be the case, is there any doubt why there are so few takers?
Catherine - Jan 20, 2005 6:59 am (#1270 of 2486)
I think that's a good point, Marcus.
I don't know how poor Agnes ended up in St. Mungo's as a dog, but something obviously went wrong in her case. Maybe she experimented with Polyjuice Potion and some dog hair fell in? Although Madame Pomfrey was able to cure Hermione, so that's probably not it.
Viktor Krum ended up as only half-shark. He's lucky that he was able to rid himself of it; otherwise I imagine that he'd have to stay in water in order to breathe, assuming he was using gills.
I could see Hermione being very cautious about the Animagus Transfiguration. She has already spent weeks in the hospital wing in a catlike state. I'm sure would hate to miss any of her lessons what with N.E.W.T.s coming up.
librarian314 - Jan 20, 2005 8:03 am (#1271 of 2486)
Hey all!
My husband and I sometimes play the "Truly useless Animagus form game" in which we try to come up with the most useless critters imaginable. They tend to be things like amoebas, earthworms, sea slugs, coral, etc. I'd much rather be a stag or an otter (or spider or beetle) than an earthworm. ;-)
Since I first read the series I got the idea that unregistered Animagi may well be all over the place. The wizard world seems to have quite a lot of rules that people of all stripes ignore. Mr. Weasley has an enchanted car; unregistered Animagi make up the majority of the ones we've met; and government officials set dementors loose in Muggle suburbia, to mention three off the top of my head.
Even Hermione, who was very bent on upholding the rules has learned that to get along in the wizard world you have to ignore the rules sometimes. Thus the sneaking into the restricted section of the library, brewing polyjuice potion, stealing potions ingredients, and starting the DA.
*michelle the librarian**
Ludicrous Patents Office - Jan 20, 2005 7:48 pm (#1272 of 2486)
Even Professor McGonagall has bended the rules. She gave Harry a broomstick and allowed him on the house team. I think there are probably several unregistrared animagus in each generation. Hermione could work it out, of that I have no doubt. I think she will be to busy to. She will find a few other rules to bend or go around. LPO
Steve Newton - Jan 21, 2005 7:29 am (#1273 of 2486)
LPO, I don't think that McGonagall bent the rules to get Harry on the team. I think that she asked for what we would call a waiver and it was granted. Otherwise, all of the matches that Harry played in would have been forfeited for using an illegal player. I'm sure the Slytherins would have pointed this out immediately as there is no way that Snape didn't notice that Harry was on the team.
Choices - Jan 21, 2005 9:26 am (#1274 of 2486)
I was always under the impression that first years never made the house team due to lack of talent or skill, not because it was against the rules. I do know first years are not allowed to have broomsticks, so there McGonagall did have to get permission for Harry to have one. McGonagall seems more than willing to go to bat for students - like she helped Hermione to be able to take all the classes she wanted by getting permission for her to use the time-turner.
Ludicrous Patents Office - Jan 21, 2005 8:23 pm (#1275 of 2486)
You are right Steve and Choices. McGonagall got permission for Harry to have his broom and be on the team. LPO
Kelly Kapaoski - Jan 23, 2005 1:24 pm (#1276 of 2486)
Accually 1st years are not allowed to have brooms (excluding the occational exception every centery or so)
Muggle Doctor - Jan 23, 2005 2:33 pm (#1277 of 2486)
Malfoy to Flitwick: "Potter has a broom, sir."
Flitwick: "Yes, yes! Professor McGonagall told me about the special circumstances..." (or words to that effect) (PS/SS)
Clearly, since the staff make the rules, they are also permitted to make exceptions. First Years are usually not on quidditch teams due to skill deficiencies - but seeing as this one was good enough, it followed that he must be permitted to have his own broom. (It can certainly be argued, however, that a lot of favouritism was applied to give it to him - the money almost certainly came out of Dumbledore's pocket.)
Prefect Marcus - Jan 23, 2005 3:31 pm (#1278 of 2486)
Muggle Doctor - [T]he money almost certainly came out of Dumbledore's pocket
Really? I always assumed it came out of McGonagall's pocket, or out of the discretionary Gryffindor account she undoubtedly has.
Catherine - Jan 23, 2005 4:19 pm (#1279 of 2486)
I've always assumed that the money was from a Gryffindor Slush Fund, perhaps from generous Alumni, or from Minerva herself.
It never really occurred to me that it would be from Dumbledore. Certainly if Draco's father can buy a team brooms, someone could, theoretically, donate funds to buy a player a broom.
Muggle Doctor - Jan 23, 2005 5:07 pm (#1280 of 2486)
My assumption was based upon the fact that, like the gift of Harry's invisibility cloak, the note about the broom (in the book, anyway) came unsigned, but was almost certainly from Dumbledore.
I can see Dumbledore doing something generous like this for Harry, as partial compensation for having submitted him to the tender (??) mercies (?????) of the Dursleys for 10 years. Your comments on general Gryffindor funds are well taken, and certainly they could be listed under "Expenses, Quidditch, equipment."
Solitaire - Jan 23, 2005 5:55 pm (#1281 of 2486)
I always assumed it was from McGonagall, too. She was so excited to have a Seeker for her house team! BTW, why are we talking about Harry's broom on Hermione's thread? LOL Just wondered ...
Choices - Jan 23, 2005 6:53 pm (#1282 of 2486)
Because Hermione, in her never ending quest for knowledge, would also be interested in knowing who gave Harry his first broom. LOL I vote with the McGonagall bunch.
Ludicrous Patents Office - Jan 23, 2005 7:05 pm (#1283 of 2486)
Good save Choices. I vote for McGonagall also. Hermione admires McGonagall. Someday when Hermione is a teacher she will bend the rules to help someone out. LPO
Archangel - Jan 23, 2005 7:46 pm (#1284 of 2486)
And say to herself, "I can't believe I just did that."
Prefect Marcus - Jan 23, 2005 9:27 pm (#1285 of 2486)
The Nimbus 2000 came with a letter from McGonagall telling Harry not to open it in the Great Hall. It is the Firebolt that arrived sans note.
As Harry stated in GoF, "Dumbledore was just passing it [the invisibility cloak] on to me. He wouldn't spend hundreds of Galleons on me. He can't go giving students stuff like this--", and I agree. He has to represent the whole school and not show favoritism at all. Buying the top-of-the-line racing broom for a first year would definitely be that.
And don't forget that he was already worried that he might have feelings for Harry that will get in the way of the prophecy.
And finally, Harry never once questioned where the Nimbus came from. He did question who sent the Firebolt, however.
No, it makes far more sense for it to have been McGonagall's doing.
Hermione is already bending the rules so who needs to be a teacher to bend them. :-)
Solitaire - Jan 23, 2005 11:56 pm (#1286 of 2486)
LOL to Choices and LPO!! I like that! I'm very impressed and agree wholeheartedly!
Joanne R. Reid - Jan 24, 2005 11:28 am (#1287 of 2486)
I agree with Perfect Marcus, et. al., regarding the purchaser of Harry's Nimbus 2000. Dumbledore couldn't play favorites. Lucius Malfoy was still in control of the Governors at that time. He'd had raised a huge stink.
It had to be Minerva. However, whether she got it from a special fund or paid for it herself is a matter of question. Certainly, she liked Harry and truly wanted to win ... if for no other reason that to rub Severus' nose in it. And, there was a precedent, so the rule had its exceptions.
However, with regard to the Invisibility Cloak, let's remember that it belonged to James Potter. DD was just returning it to its rightful owner.
Thanks,
Bathilda - Jan 25, 2005 7:57 am (#1288 of 2486)
McGonagal has a special place in her heart for Harry. She checked out the muggles (dursely's) all day on the day after the Potter's were killed. She didn't want Harry to stay there at all citing them as "the worst kind of muggles"...but I digress.
HERMIONE... has this thread discussed the fact that the sorting considered putting Hermione in Ravenclaw? In Oop in the Room of Requirement, I think, she gives everyone the charmed Galleons...they are aghast that she can perform a protean charm, and wonder why she isn't a Ravenclaw. She says that the sorting hat had thought of that, but decided on Gryfindor. We know that the sorting hat is a smart bugger; perhaps he could see Hermione's usefulness to Harry? My theory is that she asked to be in Gryfindor in the same way that Harry asked not to be in Slytherin. Hermione says on the train to Hogwarts, I think, that "Gryfindor sounds like the best by far", and that's the house she wants to be in.
Could Hermione end up with powers related to Divination? That would be sweet irony for her! She hates that branch, but she's forced to believe in prophecies after OoP. I think it would be funny if from time to time, Hermione is blessed with a vision or two. I wonder though if Hermione will have any special powers in addition to her rather large brain...
Eponine - Jan 25, 2005 8:09 am (#1289 of 2486)
Well, Hermione was sorted before Harry, so unless the Hat could see into the future I don't think she was put into Gryffindor for Harry's sake. She could very well have asked to be put there.
And Hermione ending up with divining powers? That would be ironic.
Ydnam96 - Jan 25, 2005 8:37 am (#1290 of 2486)
I think Hermione is clever, no doubt. But like Neville she may have "hidden" Gryffindor qualities that we haven't seen yet.
Although, I think she has proved herself to be pretty brave and loyal and she cares more about goodness than smarts, you know the whole "books and cleverness" bit she tells Harry in SS. Ravenclaws tend to be very impressed with their smartness right? I don't think she thinks being smart is everything.
Snuffles - Jan 25, 2005 8:59 am (#1291 of 2486)
I think just about every student has qualities for all 4 houses its just that the hat chooses the house they have MOST qualities. Hermione is certainly clever enough to be in Ravenclaw its just she has more qualities for Gryffindor.
Not sure if that makes sense, im at work and it keeps interfering with my Potter life!
Bathilda - Jan 25, 2005 11:06 am (#1292 of 2486)
yes, Snuffles, I think everyone has some of all the house traits, too. I also think that Hermione has shown bravery and loyalty PLENTY to have put her in Gryfindor. I just wonder if her desire to be in Gryfindor got her in, as the desire to NOT be a Slytherin made Harry NOT a Slytherin... that makes sense to me, though the syntax is a bit off. One at preschool, and the other asleep....I FINALLY have some moments for ME, and I can't make my head work!!! ARGH.
Eric Bailey - Jan 25, 2005 2:29 pm (#1293 of 2486)
I think it was the desire to be in Gryffindor that was the deciding factor with Hermione. Luna, after all, has proven to be brave and loyal, joining in the DoM situation when she had no real personal stake in it, but she's still very much a Ravenclaw. One thing, though, that seperates Luna from her Gryffindor collegues in the Sextet is her emotional detachment. Harsh words don't phase her the way they do Hermione, so that could well be a Ravenclaw personality trait. One would need a degree of emotional control to survive the Ravenclaw commom room, I would think.
Catherine - Jan 25, 2005 2:52 pm (#1294 of 2486)
One would need a degree of emotional control to survive the Ravenclaw commom room, I would think. --Eric
Hmm. Cho probably isn't doing so well, then. I think emotional control is a trait that is important to the plot in OoP, and one that Harry needs to learn more than Hermione does.
I think that Luna is especially detached, not that Hermione is fazed by words. In JKR's own words, Luna is "out to lunch." Hermione did have hurt feelings when Snape called her names in front of the whole class in PoA, and made fun of her teeth in GoF, but I think many students would have, too. Hermione was always the person telling Harry to ignore the taunts in GoF.
Prefect Marcus - Jan 25, 2005 5:04 pm (#1295 of 2486)
Don't forget what Hermione values the most. Remember her little speech to Harry when they were going after the stone? She pooh-poohed her intellect and said Harry's traits are far more valuable. So the Hat put her among students who value the same things she does.
Catherine - Jan 25, 2005 5:16 pm (#1296 of 2486)
Hermione values her friends, and she does value bravery.
I'm reminded of Hagrid's words in PoA when he admonishes Ron and Harry that he would have thought that they would have valued a friend over a rat and a broomstick.
Hermione is extremely loyal, and is strong enough to make her friends angry at her if she thinks that the situation is dire. She was willing to put the full Body-Bind on Neville in SS, and willing to tell McGonagall about the Firebolt in PoA.
There are all kinds of courage, and Hermione has them in spades.
Wand Maker - Jan 25, 2005 5:50 pm (#1297 of 2486)
There are all kinds of courage, and Hermione has them in spades. - Catherine
Dumbledore said that it takes as much courage to stand up to your friends as your enemies.
Hermione, being more mature for her age than her classmates has shown her courage more than any other, save for Harry.
I think that Harry consciously recognizes Hermione's actions more readily than Ron. Ron's bickering with Hermione is probably clouding his vision as he really likes Hermione but hasn't yet reached the emotional maturity to accept it.
I wouldn't be surprised if in the next book Hermione suggests that the DA try Occulmency, at least the part of controlling emotions. It could be enough to throw the DE or the DN off if they find themselves in a tight situation.
Solitaire - Jan 28, 2005 2:26 am (#1298 of 2486)
The reason Harry was instructed in Occlumency was to block intrusions into his mind by Voldemort--obviously a skilled Legilimens. It was not until the snake attack on Mr. Weasley that the extent of the mind connection between Harry and Voldemort became apparent--to both sides.
I do not see how anyone could really "practice" Occlumency except in company with someone who was actually a Legilimens. How would they know if anyone were entering--or attempting to enter--their minds? It took a while for Harry to understand this. Even if kids did practice, how would they know if they were successfully blocking intrusions, unless someone were actually attempting to intrude? It would require someone to make attempts to intrude into their individual minds in order to see if they really have mastered the skill. As far as we know, we have not yet met any kids who possess this ability--only Voldemort, Dumbledore, Snape, and possibly (it has been suggested) Remus. This seems to be something one would have to study one-on-one with Snape or Dumbledore, in order to know if there is a reason to need it or whether they are mastering it.
Solitaire
Bathilda - Jan 28, 2005 3:47 pm (#1299 of 2486)
Well, there is a spell involved. At least Snape has to use his wand to "intrude" on Harry. The students could at least attempt the spell and see what happens. It could be that Voldy, etc., don't need their wands to do it--but that might be for another thread.
Wand Maker - Jan 28, 2005 8:27 pm (#1300 of 2486)
I was just thinking that Hermione likes to be very prepared about things. I had a mental picture of Hermione having the DA sitting crosslegged on the cushions, saying in a calm voice "Clear your minds. Let yourself drift off to a quiet place..." and seeing people looking at each other thinking she has gone off the deep end.
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Jak Frank - Jan 28, 2005 8:45 pm (#1301 of 2486)
Ha! I could see that.
Archangel - Jan 28, 2005 9:06 pm (#1302 of 2486)
Wand Maker, people will think Hermione's been possessed by Trelawney.
Solitaire - Jan 28, 2005 9:13 pm (#1303 of 2486)
It could be enough to throw the DE or the DN off if they find themselves in a tight situation
It takes conscious effort to really block things out of the mind. I am not sure this would be possible when one is involved in wand-to-wand combat or some other adrenalin-charged situation with a DE or a DN. I think the brain would be working much too hard on the problem at hand to simply stop and empty itself of all thoughts.
Controlling emotions is one thing--but I don't believe it is Occlumency.
Solitaire
Muggle Doctor - Jan 31, 2005 4:12 am (#1304 of 2486)
I think a Legilimens would find it as difficult to enter someone else's mind during combat as an Occlumens would to keep them out.
(I don't count Dumbledore or Voldemort here - both are sufficiently accomplished in both, no doubt, to do either without raising sweat, and Snape is probably not far behind.)
If somebody showed Hermione that quiet mystical contemplation was the key to an incredibly powerful piece of magic, she'd learn it. Under fire if necessary.
Bathilda - Jan 31, 2005 8:46 am (#1305 of 2486)
True, Muggle Doctor, and if she thought it was essential to help Harry, she would learn it overnight. Hermione shows a lot of maturity. As hard and fast as her brain seems to always be working, I think that with concentration, she could find some peace and quiet.
Wand Maker - Feb 1, 2005 7:07 pm (#1306 of 2486)
Yes Solitaire. Each time Voldemort has shown his use of Legilimens, it has been during conversations not actual combat.
I think that if Dumbledore doesn't help Harry with Occulmency, I think that Hermione will try helping Harry herself.
Muggle Doctor - Feb 1, 2005 7:40 pm (#1307 of 2486)
Slightly OT, but I wonder if Voldemort is actually a Legilimens at all, or whether his ability to pick Harry's brains is because, and only because, of the link between them, forged in the very first encounter. It seems that in most of his interrogations of people, he has relied heavily on torture or fear to find out what he needs to know.
Solitaire - Feb 2, 2005 2:49 am (#1308 of 2486)
Then you are suggesting Hermione is a legilimens? I believe she would have to be one, in order to know if Harry was using Occlumency. Of course she can make reasoned guesses, but this is not the same thing, is it? I'm not sure Hermione has been set up to possess this ability ... yet. It is certainly within the realm of possibilities--given her giftedness--and I could see her helping him practice once it has been established that she herself is a legilimens. But I do not see how she can help with Occlumency training otherwise. I believe this is one of those things that cannot necessarily be learned from a book.
Solitaire
Edit: Interesting question, Muggle Doc. Wait--didn't Snape tell us he was a Legilimens? I can't remember ...
Eric Bailey - Feb 2, 2005 6:54 am (#1309 of 2486)
If any of the students is a Legilimen, it's most likely Luna. She always seems to know what the rest are thinking or feeling, and she is big on maintaining eye contact, and otherwise observing everyone closely, to the point of unnerving people. She also has the emotional control it would require. It's a question of whether any of the students would have learned that complex skill at that age. If not, though, it's something she'd be able to pick up, quickly.
I don't think Snape has said he's a Legilimen, but we can conclude he is, since he was able to invade Harry's mind while teaching Occlumency, and always seems to know when a student is lying to him.
We also, IIRC, have never seen Voldemort, himself, use torture to get info. His Death Eaters do, but Voldie's only used torture to make a point, as it were.
wwtMask - Feb 2, 2005 7:13 am (#1310 of 2486)
Snape has said that Voldemort is a skilled Legilimens and that it's almost impossible to lie to him. That said, his connection to Harry probably makes his skill ten times more powerful when trying to read Harry's thoughts. Remember that he did the same back in PS in the final scene with Quirrel.
Catherine - Feb 2, 2005 7:20 am (#1311 of 2486)
These are good discussions, but they would fit better on the Voldemort thread, or the Connections between Harry and Voldemort thread.
And back to Hermione....
Bathilda - Feb 2, 2005 5:23 pm (#1312 of 2486)
Okay, I have said Harry and Hermione--no way...however, in the scene just after Harry's kiss with Cho, Hermione seems to have a twinge of jealousy. She's very "businesslike", and seems to be trying to hide her emotions... just an observation. I still don't think that there will be a romantic relationship between Harry and Hermy--but maybe they will have to give it a try in order to come to the realization that it wouldn't work. (???)
dizzy lizzy - Feb 3, 2005 12:35 am (#1313 of 2486)
Can some one tell me what IIRC means? I looked on the abbreviations thread but no luck.
The giant squid - Feb 3, 2005 1:58 am (#1314 of 2486)
Lizzy, IIRC is a common net abbreviation for "If I Recall (or Remember) Correctly". Sometimes those of us who've been wandering the information superhighway for a while forget that there are others who have only recently found the on-ramp. So, a blanket warning: remember to keep your abbreviations to the list on this board, or explain them within your post. (I've been caught at this, so I'm passing my experience on to you. )
--Mike
dizzy lizzy - Feb 3, 2005 2:44 am (#1315 of 2486)
Mike: I've found the on-ramp and I'm going way too fast. I can't find the brakes though
I've often thought there is a bit of theory involved in Legilimency/Occlumency and perhaps this has been overlooked. Hermione might be able to explain it better now that Harry understands what its all about.
Lizzy
wwtMask - Feb 3, 2005 11:10 am (#1316 of 2486)
This is somewhat offtopic, but everytime I see Hermione's full name, I always think "Hermione Farmer". This is because I read an explanation somewhere that said 'granger' is another word for 'farmer'.
Can Hermione really help Harry with Occlumency? I'm not so sure about that. Legilimency and Occlumency seem like skills that don't just require study or concentration but also some innate aptitude and, more importantly, a good instructor. It doesn't seem like something you can just learn from a book.
Bathilda - Feb 3, 2005 3:46 pm (#1317 of 2486)
Hermione has figured out very complex magic on her own...Protean Charm, etc. I think that she's coming into her talent as a witch as well as her book smarts. Hermione has a HUGE brain and lots of talent...not to mention a big heart.
Solitaire - Feb 3, 2005 9:38 pm (#1318 of 2486)
Figuring out and performing a complex charm is still very different from possessing the ability to invade someone's mind. And really, this seems like it is a MUST for someone who wishes to teach Occlumency. It would be impossible for Hermione--or anyone else, for that matter--to know if Harry is closing his mind if she does not have the ability to penetrate his mind. And I agree with Mask that the penetration of someone's mind is one skill that cannot be learned from a book. I think anyone can learn Occlumency, if he or she has the wish to do this. Legilimency, I think, is quite another matter.
It is very possible that Hermione may possess this ability but has simply not been trained to use it--in which case she would hardly be in a position to teach Harry. I confess to being extremely curious as to why people have suddenly jumped on the idea that Hermione would be teaching Harry this kind of skill. Helping him master the summoning charm is one thing; this is quite another. I do not seem to be making the connection here.
Solitaire
Ydnam96 - Feb 4, 2005 12:18 am (#1319 of 2486)
Solitaire, I quite agree. Hermione is a exceptional student but she is just 16. And I have a feeling that one doesn't suddenly learn that they have the gift of Occlumency. Even more I don't think that even if she spontaneously learned how to be an Occlumens that she would have the ability to teach Harry. I just don't see it.
Solitaire - Feb 4, 2005 12:24 am (#1320 of 2486)
Even if she were an acknowledged Occlumens, it wouldn't necessarily help. In order to know if Harry were closing his mind properly, she would have to be able to invade it. That is something different than Occlumency.
Solitaire
Archangel - Feb 4, 2005 1:00 am (#1321 of 2486)
Hermione can definitely help Harry understand the theory behind Occlumency. However, the theory behind it is easy enough to understand that I doubt Harry would engage Hermione's help in explaining the subject further. After all, he was able to successfully block some of Snape's instrusions and was even able to turn the thing around and look into Snape's mind.
What Harry needs is constant practice and, unless there's more to Harry's avoidance of Hermione's eyes when he's lying, Hermione might not have the necessary abilities (esp. if those abilities cannot be thought but only inherited) to help him do so.
I wonder how Hermione will react to all this though. This, being her inability to help Harry in this area and finding out that someone outside their gang could do so.
Solitaire - Feb 4, 2005 8:14 am (#1322 of 2486)
I am having difficulty understanding why people suddenly feel that whoever helps Harry with his Occlumency--assuming Dumbledore still wants him to pursue this--is going to be a student. It isn't out of the realm of possibilities that something I read went right over my head, but when did the students surpass the Hogwarts professors as those most qualified to teach Harry in any subject? I'm just wondering what new tidbit of info I've missed ...
Solitaire
MickeyCee3948 - Feb 4, 2005 12:12 pm (#1323 of 2486)
I agree Solitaire, I know that the students are very knowledgeable in many areas but I don't believe they come close to the capabilities of most of their teachers.
I believe a large number of these posts are related to the knowledge that Harry's stay at #4 PD will be his shortest ever. We all have our own theories as to why this will occur. We almost all are in agreement also that Harry needs to complete his Occlumency training.
So many theories are concluding a student rather than a teacher will accomplish this. I believe that this is because Harry has not spent any time during his vacations in any of the books with his teachers. But times have changed and I predict that DD will have Harry finish his training this summer with an adult teacher. Who I don't know.
Mikie
Ludicrous Patents Office - Feb 4, 2005 7:34 pm (#1324 of 2486)
Solitaire I agree that Harry is better off learning from an adult Witch or Wizard. Hermione and Ron have helped Harry master a lot of things in the past. They are his "study group". Hermione is very talented but she does not have the experience necessary to help Harry. LPO
gforce2588 - Feb 6, 2005 11:57 am (#1325 of 2486)
I'm definitely with solitaire and ydnam96 on this one. Hermione, for all her exceptional abilities, is only Harry's age. Becoming an Occlumens appears to be an extremely hard concept to master (hence Dumbledore's assertion that Snape teach Harry -- it would take nothing less than a master Occluemns to teach someone unfamiliar with this particular branch of magic.)
Now, somewhat off topic...even if Occlumens isn't a viable specialty for Hermione to spontaneously learn, what about becoming an Animagus? If James Potter and his friends could do it (none of them, especially Pettigrew, showing any kind of ability that Hermione couldn't surpass), couldn't Hermione learn it as well? If she could, how would it affect the plot of book 6? Thoughts, anyone?
Solitaire - Feb 6, 2005 1:45 pm (#1326 of 2486)
I think we may see an animagus or two emerge in the current generation of kids, and Hermione does seem to have the skill and dedication to pursue this. I'm sure I remember reading somewhere, though, that Harry would not become an animagus. For some reason, this information--joined with the introduction of Tonks and Harry's overnight hair-regrowing episode--make me wonder if Harry might turn out to be a metamorphmagus. I hope so. Just imagine the wonderful complications that could ensue, especially if he were able to impersonate someone else!
Solitaire
Ydnam96 - Feb 7, 2005 8:36 am (#1327 of 2486)
Hermione could only be an animagus if she registered. Could you see Rita finding out that Hermione could transform? Hah.
pottermom34 - Feb 7, 2005 8:57 am (#1328 of 2486)
so what does anyone think Hermione's animagus could or would be?
Solitaire - Feb 7, 2005 10:04 am (#1329 of 2486)
Probably a Border Collie ... Check the second line down and see if it isn't Hermione to a tee!
Solitaire
timrew - Feb 7, 2005 4:47 pm (#1330 of 2486)
I think (in OoP) Hermione's Patronus was an otter. Therefore, I think her animagus would be an otter also. This has all to do with James being a stag animagus, and Harry producing a stag Patronus.
But it's my theory, and I'm sticking to it!
Muggle Doctor - Feb 7, 2005 6:18 pm (#1331 of 2486)
We will not know until we see a known animagus produce a corporeal patronus.
The giant squid - Feb 8, 2005 12:57 am (#1332 of 2486)
Going by your logic, Tim, Hermione's patronus would be the same as her parent's animagus form. Like Muggle Doctor said, until we see the patronus of an animagus we won't know for certain that they are one and the same. Although I can see Hermione mastering the little-known and exceedingly difficult Patromagus spell...
--Mike
mjakubowicz - Feb 8, 2005 7:46 am (#1333 of 2486)
Hi all. (I’m new here.) Just my couple of cents, but my impression was that Animagus forms seem to stem from an individual’s character/nature, while Harry’s Patronus seems to stem more from his happy memory/thoughts of his parent(s). Rita is an insect, Peter is a rodent, Sirius is cunning and loyal as a dog, and James a proud stag. Hermione is smart, resourceful, compassionate, etc. An owl or cat (she is a lot like McGonagall) maybe? Then again, Rowling says she likes otters, and uses Hermione often as a vehicle for expressing herself in terms of informing the reader, so I won’t bet against it showing up in the books, but it doesn’t fit the pattern as I see it. Not that I'm a pro on otters or anything.
Solitaire - Feb 8, 2005 8:11 am (#1334 of 2486)
Judging from Remus Lupin's Patronus and the one Dumbledore produced at the Quidditch match, not all of them take a corporeal form. The only ones I remember having an actual form are Harry's stag, Hermione's otter, and Cho's swan. This could be because those three are more powerful than the other kids (obviously not more powerful than DD or Remus)--or perhaps they were just more focused than the others at that moment.
I've wondered, too, if the Patronus takes the same form as the animagus. If so, Rita better hope she is never attacked by a Dementor. I'm not sure a beetle would be worth much in such a confrontation.
Solitaire
Weeny Owl - Feb 8, 2005 11:29 am (#1335 of 2486)
She could always have a swarm of beetles, although I don't think beetles swarm exactly.
As for Hermione, I'm not sure JKR would have any of the main characters become Animagi, but it's possible. I could see Hermione as a porcupine, really. She has the hair for it, and her personality can be a bit prickly at times. Porcupines are basically gentle, but when cornered, they sure do fight back, and that sounds a bit like Hermione. She's a sweet person who overlooks quite a bit, but when she lets go, she REALLY lets go.
ex-FAHgeek - Feb 8, 2005 11:46 am (#1336 of 2486)
---quote--- She could always have a swarm of beetles, although I don't think beetles swarm exactly. ---end quote---
Come now, haven't you seen all those bad mummy movies with those hordes of Scarab beetles?
Weeny Owl - Feb 8, 2005 11:49 am (#1337 of 2486)
Oh, I love the Mummy movies!
But do you think Hermione could be a porcupine Animagus?
pottermom34 - Feb 8, 2005 3:03 pm (#1338 of 2486)
she (rite skeeter's patronus) could be a dung beetle
timrew - Feb 8, 2005 4:06 pm (#1339 of 2486)
Well, JKR has suggested in interviews that Animagus spells will not be mentioned for our heroes in any way......
So, where does that leave us.........?
Weeny Owl - Feb 8, 2005 4:37 pm (#1340 of 2486)
Well, Tim, it leaves me wishing Hermione could be a porcupine. Can you imagine the visual with a bunch of porcupine quills going right into Draco's face if he made her mad?
Ludicrous Patents Office - Feb 8, 2005 4:55 pm (#1341 of 2486)
LOL Weeny. I agree, Hermione would make a great porcupine. LPO
Catherine - Feb 8, 2005 6:09 pm (#1342 of 2486)
After reading the Chat thread with the skunk woes...I almost wish Hermione had a stripe in her hair and could have a skunk animagus form!
Just imagine how she'd make Millicent Bulstrode, Pansy Parkinson, Crabbe, Goyle, and Draco miserable!
Denise P. - Feb 8, 2005 9:10 pm (#1343 of 2486)
Do they even have skunks in the UK? Do we know if an animage has to be a mundane animal or could it be a magical one? I would like to see Hermione as a hedgehog, they are cute but prickly.
Solitaire - Feb 8, 2005 10:36 pm (#1344 of 2486)
Oh, dear, Weeny! Porcupine quills, Rita's Quick-Quills, Umbridge's Quill of Death, Hermione's Poison Green Quill ... hehe Perhaps you are onto something. Wasn't Hermione the only one in her group to turn her hedgehog into a pin cushion?
Solitaire
Kelly Kapaoski - Feb 9, 2005 2:36 am (#1345 of 2486)
I think Occulmency and Legemency are types of magic that you have to accually learn through practical experiance rather then just reading about it in theory. If she had a teacher who would be willing to give her lessons on Legemency Hermione would probably pick it up pretty quickly.
mjakubowicz - Feb 9, 2005 1:48 pm (#1346 of 2486)
Denise - interesting question about mundane vs magical animagi. My guess is a wizard or witch could take the Form of a unicorn or phoenix, say, and be able to gallop or fly as such, but I don't see how either of those animal's inherent magic could be assumed. i.e., I don't think one could form into a unicorn and then pluck one's own tail hair to make a wand, or cry on oneself as a phoenix to mend a wound. Though perhaps someone quite gifted in both charms and transfiguration could manage something close. My guess.
Solitaire - Feb 9, 2005 9:01 pm (#1347 of 2486)
Well, aren't Unicorns and Phoenixes magical animals? I would think an animagus who turns into one of them is probably magic. As to turning into a magical animal and plucking one's own feather or tail hair to make a wand core ... I'm afraid I don't understand the comment. Did someone suggest this? Hm ...
Thus far, haven't the known animagi we've seen been real, earthly animals? McGonagall is a cat, Sirius was a dog, James was a stag, Peter is a rat, Rita is a beetle ... those all seem to fit into the animal kingdom, don't they?
Solitaire
Muggle Doctor - Feb 9, 2005 11:00 pm (#1348 of 2486)
I know we're getting somewhat off-topic here, but I can't resist it with all the speculation on animagus forms... what if Luna Lovegood's mother was trying to manage an Animagus transformation when she died, and the animal which fate had chosen for her was a thestral?
Choices - Feb 10, 2005 10:22 am (#1349 of 2486)
So far we have not seen any animagi who turn into an animal other than a regular, everyday creature. They don't turn into magical animals, so I think it is not likely that we will see that. It would seem that they would have more freedom to roam around if they were a common animal that a Muggle would not be surprised or shocked to see. Like McGonagall as the cat on Privet Drive. She fit in perfectly well, but had she been a thestral or a unicorn - wow, can you imagine the reaction?
Solitaire - Feb 12, 2005 11:43 am (#1350 of 2486)
I tend to agree, Choices. Also, as she had been seeing Thestrals for a while, I think Luna would certainly have said something if her mother had been trying to transform into one.
It seems to me that normal, mundane, everyday animals are probably the most practical for transformations. Transforming into a cat, a dog, or a rat is certainly more practical, if you ask me, than transforming into a stag. I mean, a cat or dog can kind of nose around most places without attracting undue attention. And a rat form would certainly be useful in some specific situations. But a stag? Hm ... Around here, in fact, Prongs would have to be careful not to transform during hunting season! Otherwise, he might wind up as someone's venison dinner!
Solitaire
Ha! I could see that.
Archangel - Jan 28, 2005 9:06 pm (#1302 of 2486)
Wand Maker, people will think Hermione's been possessed by Trelawney.
Solitaire - Jan 28, 2005 9:13 pm (#1303 of 2486)
It could be enough to throw the DE or the DN off if they find themselves in a tight situation
It takes conscious effort to really block things out of the mind. I am not sure this would be possible when one is involved in wand-to-wand combat or some other adrenalin-charged situation with a DE or a DN. I think the brain would be working much too hard on the problem at hand to simply stop and empty itself of all thoughts.
Controlling emotions is one thing--but I don't believe it is Occlumency.
Solitaire
Muggle Doctor - Jan 31, 2005 4:12 am (#1304 of 2486)
I think a Legilimens would find it as difficult to enter someone else's mind during combat as an Occlumens would to keep them out.
(I don't count Dumbledore or Voldemort here - both are sufficiently accomplished in both, no doubt, to do either without raising sweat, and Snape is probably not far behind.)
If somebody showed Hermione that quiet mystical contemplation was the key to an incredibly powerful piece of magic, she'd learn it. Under fire if necessary.
Bathilda - Jan 31, 2005 8:46 am (#1305 of 2486)
True, Muggle Doctor, and if she thought it was essential to help Harry, she would learn it overnight. Hermione shows a lot of maturity. As hard and fast as her brain seems to always be working, I think that with concentration, she could find some peace and quiet.
Wand Maker - Feb 1, 2005 7:07 pm (#1306 of 2486)
Yes Solitaire. Each time Voldemort has shown his use of Legilimens, it has been during conversations not actual combat.
I think that if Dumbledore doesn't help Harry with Occulmency, I think that Hermione will try helping Harry herself.
Muggle Doctor - Feb 1, 2005 7:40 pm (#1307 of 2486)
Slightly OT, but I wonder if Voldemort is actually a Legilimens at all, or whether his ability to pick Harry's brains is because, and only because, of the link between them, forged in the very first encounter. It seems that in most of his interrogations of people, he has relied heavily on torture or fear to find out what he needs to know.
Solitaire - Feb 2, 2005 2:49 am (#1308 of 2486)
Then you are suggesting Hermione is a legilimens? I believe she would have to be one, in order to know if Harry was using Occlumency. Of course she can make reasoned guesses, but this is not the same thing, is it? I'm not sure Hermione has been set up to possess this ability ... yet. It is certainly within the realm of possibilities--given her giftedness--and I could see her helping him practice once it has been established that she herself is a legilimens. But I do not see how she can help with Occlumency training otherwise. I believe this is one of those things that cannot necessarily be learned from a book.
Solitaire
Edit: Interesting question, Muggle Doc. Wait--didn't Snape tell us he was a Legilimens? I can't remember ...
Eric Bailey - Feb 2, 2005 6:54 am (#1309 of 2486)
If any of the students is a Legilimen, it's most likely Luna. She always seems to know what the rest are thinking or feeling, and she is big on maintaining eye contact, and otherwise observing everyone closely, to the point of unnerving people. She also has the emotional control it would require. It's a question of whether any of the students would have learned that complex skill at that age. If not, though, it's something she'd be able to pick up, quickly.
I don't think Snape has said he's a Legilimen, but we can conclude he is, since he was able to invade Harry's mind while teaching Occlumency, and always seems to know when a student is lying to him.
We also, IIRC, have never seen Voldemort, himself, use torture to get info. His Death Eaters do, but Voldie's only used torture to make a point, as it were.
wwtMask - Feb 2, 2005 7:13 am (#1310 of 2486)
Snape has said that Voldemort is a skilled Legilimens and that it's almost impossible to lie to him. That said, his connection to Harry probably makes his skill ten times more powerful when trying to read Harry's thoughts. Remember that he did the same back in PS in the final scene with Quirrel.
Catherine - Feb 2, 2005 7:20 am (#1311 of 2486)
These are good discussions, but they would fit better on the Voldemort thread, or the Connections between Harry and Voldemort thread.
And back to Hermione....
Bathilda - Feb 2, 2005 5:23 pm (#1312 of 2486)
Okay, I have said Harry and Hermione--no way...however, in the scene just after Harry's kiss with Cho, Hermione seems to have a twinge of jealousy. She's very "businesslike", and seems to be trying to hide her emotions... just an observation. I still don't think that there will be a romantic relationship between Harry and Hermy--but maybe they will have to give it a try in order to come to the realization that it wouldn't work. (???)
dizzy lizzy - Feb 3, 2005 12:35 am (#1313 of 2486)
Can some one tell me what IIRC means? I looked on the abbreviations thread but no luck.
The giant squid - Feb 3, 2005 1:58 am (#1314 of 2486)
Lizzy, IIRC is a common net abbreviation for "If I Recall (or Remember) Correctly". Sometimes those of us who've been wandering the information superhighway for a while forget that there are others who have only recently found the on-ramp. So, a blanket warning: remember to keep your abbreviations to the list on this board, or explain them within your post. (I've been caught at this, so I'm passing my experience on to you. )
--Mike
dizzy lizzy - Feb 3, 2005 2:44 am (#1315 of 2486)
Mike: I've found the on-ramp and I'm going way too fast. I can't find the brakes though
I've often thought there is a bit of theory involved in Legilimency/Occlumency and perhaps this has been overlooked. Hermione might be able to explain it better now that Harry understands what its all about.
Lizzy
wwtMask - Feb 3, 2005 11:10 am (#1316 of 2486)
This is somewhat offtopic, but everytime I see Hermione's full name, I always think "Hermione Farmer". This is because I read an explanation somewhere that said 'granger' is another word for 'farmer'.
Can Hermione really help Harry with Occlumency? I'm not so sure about that. Legilimency and Occlumency seem like skills that don't just require study or concentration but also some innate aptitude and, more importantly, a good instructor. It doesn't seem like something you can just learn from a book.
Bathilda - Feb 3, 2005 3:46 pm (#1317 of 2486)
Hermione has figured out very complex magic on her own...Protean Charm, etc. I think that she's coming into her talent as a witch as well as her book smarts. Hermione has a HUGE brain and lots of talent...not to mention a big heart.
Solitaire - Feb 3, 2005 9:38 pm (#1318 of 2486)
Figuring out and performing a complex charm is still very different from possessing the ability to invade someone's mind. And really, this seems like it is a MUST for someone who wishes to teach Occlumency. It would be impossible for Hermione--or anyone else, for that matter--to know if Harry is closing his mind if she does not have the ability to penetrate his mind. And I agree with Mask that the penetration of someone's mind is one skill that cannot be learned from a book. I think anyone can learn Occlumency, if he or she has the wish to do this. Legilimency, I think, is quite another matter.
It is very possible that Hermione may possess this ability but has simply not been trained to use it--in which case she would hardly be in a position to teach Harry. I confess to being extremely curious as to why people have suddenly jumped on the idea that Hermione would be teaching Harry this kind of skill. Helping him master the summoning charm is one thing; this is quite another. I do not seem to be making the connection here.
Solitaire
Ydnam96 - Feb 4, 2005 12:18 am (#1319 of 2486)
Solitaire, I quite agree. Hermione is a exceptional student but she is just 16. And I have a feeling that one doesn't suddenly learn that they have the gift of Occlumency. Even more I don't think that even if she spontaneously learned how to be an Occlumens that she would have the ability to teach Harry. I just don't see it.
Solitaire - Feb 4, 2005 12:24 am (#1320 of 2486)
Even if she were an acknowledged Occlumens, it wouldn't necessarily help. In order to know if Harry were closing his mind properly, she would have to be able to invade it. That is something different than Occlumency.
Solitaire
Archangel - Feb 4, 2005 1:00 am (#1321 of 2486)
Hermione can definitely help Harry understand the theory behind Occlumency. However, the theory behind it is easy enough to understand that I doubt Harry would engage Hermione's help in explaining the subject further. After all, he was able to successfully block some of Snape's instrusions and was even able to turn the thing around and look into Snape's mind.
What Harry needs is constant practice and, unless there's more to Harry's avoidance of Hermione's eyes when he's lying, Hermione might not have the necessary abilities (esp. if those abilities cannot be thought but only inherited) to help him do so.
I wonder how Hermione will react to all this though. This, being her inability to help Harry in this area and finding out that someone outside their gang could do so.
Solitaire - Feb 4, 2005 8:14 am (#1322 of 2486)
I am having difficulty understanding why people suddenly feel that whoever helps Harry with his Occlumency--assuming Dumbledore still wants him to pursue this--is going to be a student. It isn't out of the realm of possibilities that something I read went right over my head, but when did the students surpass the Hogwarts professors as those most qualified to teach Harry in any subject? I'm just wondering what new tidbit of info I've missed ...
Solitaire
MickeyCee3948 - Feb 4, 2005 12:12 pm (#1323 of 2486)
I agree Solitaire, I know that the students are very knowledgeable in many areas but I don't believe they come close to the capabilities of most of their teachers.
I believe a large number of these posts are related to the knowledge that Harry's stay at #4 PD will be his shortest ever. We all have our own theories as to why this will occur. We almost all are in agreement also that Harry needs to complete his Occlumency training.
So many theories are concluding a student rather than a teacher will accomplish this. I believe that this is because Harry has not spent any time during his vacations in any of the books with his teachers. But times have changed and I predict that DD will have Harry finish his training this summer with an adult teacher. Who I don't know.
Mikie
Ludicrous Patents Office - Feb 4, 2005 7:34 pm (#1324 of 2486)
Solitaire I agree that Harry is better off learning from an adult Witch or Wizard. Hermione and Ron have helped Harry master a lot of things in the past. They are his "study group". Hermione is very talented but she does not have the experience necessary to help Harry. LPO
gforce2588 - Feb 6, 2005 11:57 am (#1325 of 2486)
I'm definitely with solitaire and ydnam96 on this one. Hermione, for all her exceptional abilities, is only Harry's age. Becoming an Occlumens appears to be an extremely hard concept to master (hence Dumbledore's assertion that Snape teach Harry -- it would take nothing less than a master Occluemns to teach someone unfamiliar with this particular branch of magic.)
Now, somewhat off topic...even if Occlumens isn't a viable specialty for Hermione to spontaneously learn, what about becoming an Animagus? If James Potter and his friends could do it (none of them, especially Pettigrew, showing any kind of ability that Hermione couldn't surpass), couldn't Hermione learn it as well? If she could, how would it affect the plot of book 6? Thoughts, anyone?
Solitaire - Feb 6, 2005 1:45 pm (#1326 of 2486)
I think we may see an animagus or two emerge in the current generation of kids, and Hermione does seem to have the skill and dedication to pursue this. I'm sure I remember reading somewhere, though, that Harry would not become an animagus. For some reason, this information--joined with the introduction of Tonks and Harry's overnight hair-regrowing episode--make me wonder if Harry might turn out to be a metamorphmagus. I hope so. Just imagine the wonderful complications that could ensue, especially if he were able to impersonate someone else!
Solitaire
Ydnam96 - Feb 7, 2005 8:36 am (#1327 of 2486)
Hermione could only be an animagus if she registered. Could you see Rita finding out that Hermione could transform? Hah.
pottermom34 - Feb 7, 2005 8:57 am (#1328 of 2486)
so what does anyone think Hermione's animagus could or would be?
Solitaire - Feb 7, 2005 10:04 am (#1329 of 2486)
Probably a Border Collie ... Check the second line down and see if it isn't Hermione to a tee!
Solitaire
timrew - Feb 7, 2005 4:47 pm (#1330 of 2486)
I think (in OoP) Hermione's Patronus was an otter. Therefore, I think her animagus would be an otter also. This has all to do with James being a stag animagus, and Harry producing a stag Patronus.
But it's my theory, and I'm sticking to it!
Muggle Doctor - Feb 7, 2005 6:18 pm (#1331 of 2486)
We will not know until we see a known animagus produce a corporeal patronus.
The giant squid - Feb 8, 2005 12:57 am (#1332 of 2486)
Going by your logic, Tim, Hermione's patronus would be the same as her parent's animagus form. Like Muggle Doctor said, until we see the patronus of an animagus we won't know for certain that they are one and the same. Although I can see Hermione mastering the little-known and exceedingly difficult Patromagus spell...
--Mike
mjakubowicz - Feb 8, 2005 7:46 am (#1333 of 2486)
Hi all. (I’m new here.) Just my couple of cents, but my impression was that Animagus forms seem to stem from an individual’s character/nature, while Harry’s Patronus seems to stem more from his happy memory/thoughts of his parent(s). Rita is an insect, Peter is a rodent, Sirius is cunning and loyal as a dog, and James a proud stag. Hermione is smart, resourceful, compassionate, etc. An owl or cat (she is a lot like McGonagall) maybe? Then again, Rowling says she likes otters, and uses Hermione often as a vehicle for expressing herself in terms of informing the reader, so I won’t bet against it showing up in the books, but it doesn’t fit the pattern as I see it. Not that I'm a pro on otters or anything.
Solitaire - Feb 8, 2005 8:11 am (#1334 of 2486)
Judging from Remus Lupin's Patronus and the one Dumbledore produced at the Quidditch match, not all of them take a corporeal form. The only ones I remember having an actual form are Harry's stag, Hermione's otter, and Cho's swan. This could be because those three are more powerful than the other kids (obviously not more powerful than DD or Remus)--or perhaps they were just more focused than the others at that moment.
I've wondered, too, if the Patronus takes the same form as the animagus. If so, Rita better hope she is never attacked by a Dementor. I'm not sure a beetle would be worth much in such a confrontation.
Solitaire
Weeny Owl - Feb 8, 2005 11:29 am (#1335 of 2486)
She could always have a swarm of beetles, although I don't think beetles swarm exactly.
As for Hermione, I'm not sure JKR would have any of the main characters become Animagi, but it's possible. I could see Hermione as a porcupine, really. She has the hair for it, and her personality can be a bit prickly at times. Porcupines are basically gentle, but when cornered, they sure do fight back, and that sounds a bit like Hermione. She's a sweet person who overlooks quite a bit, but when she lets go, she REALLY lets go.
ex-FAHgeek - Feb 8, 2005 11:46 am (#1336 of 2486)
---quote--- She could always have a swarm of beetles, although I don't think beetles swarm exactly. ---end quote---
Come now, haven't you seen all those bad mummy movies with those hordes of Scarab beetles?
Weeny Owl - Feb 8, 2005 11:49 am (#1337 of 2486)
Oh, I love the Mummy movies!
But do you think Hermione could be a porcupine Animagus?
pottermom34 - Feb 8, 2005 3:03 pm (#1338 of 2486)
she (rite skeeter's patronus) could be a dung beetle
timrew - Feb 8, 2005 4:06 pm (#1339 of 2486)
Well, JKR has suggested in interviews that Animagus spells will not be mentioned for our heroes in any way......
So, where does that leave us.........?
Weeny Owl - Feb 8, 2005 4:37 pm (#1340 of 2486)
Well, Tim, it leaves me wishing Hermione could be a porcupine. Can you imagine the visual with a bunch of porcupine quills going right into Draco's face if he made her mad?
Ludicrous Patents Office - Feb 8, 2005 4:55 pm (#1341 of 2486)
LOL Weeny. I agree, Hermione would make a great porcupine. LPO
Catherine - Feb 8, 2005 6:09 pm (#1342 of 2486)
After reading the Chat thread with the skunk woes...I almost wish Hermione had a stripe in her hair and could have a skunk animagus form!
Just imagine how she'd make Millicent Bulstrode, Pansy Parkinson, Crabbe, Goyle, and Draco miserable!
Denise P. - Feb 8, 2005 9:10 pm (#1343 of 2486)
Do they even have skunks in the UK? Do we know if an animage has to be a mundane animal or could it be a magical one? I would like to see Hermione as a hedgehog, they are cute but prickly.
Solitaire - Feb 8, 2005 10:36 pm (#1344 of 2486)
Oh, dear, Weeny! Porcupine quills, Rita's Quick-Quills, Umbridge's Quill of Death, Hermione's Poison Green Quill ... hehe Perhaps you are onto something. Wasn't Hermione the only one in her group to turn her hedgehog into a pin cushion?
Solitaire
Kelly Kapaoski - Feb 9, 2005 2:36 am (#1345 of 2486)
I think Occulmency and Legemency are types of magic that you have to accually learn through practical experiance rather then just reading about it in theory. If she had a teacher who would be willing to give her lessons on Legemency Hermione would probably pick it up pretty quickly.
mjakubowicz - Feb 9, 2005 1:48 pm (#1346 of 2486)
Denise - interesting question about mundane vs magical animagi. My guess is a wizard or witch could take the Form of a unicorn or phoenix, say, and be able to gallop or fly as such, but I don't see how either of those animal's inherent magic could be assumed. i.e., I don't think one could form into a unicorn and then pluck one's own tail hair to make a wand, or cry on oneself as a phoenix to mend a wound. Though perhaps someone quite gifted in both charms and transfiguration could manage something close. My guess.
Solitaire - Feb 9, 2005 9:01 pm (#1347 of 2486)
Well, aren't Unicorns and Phoenixes magical animals? I would think an animagus who turns into one of them is probably magic. As to turning into a magical animal and plucking one's own feather or tail hair to make a wand core ... I'm afraid I don't understand the comment. Did someone suggest this? Hm ...
Thus far, haven't the known animagi we've seen been real, earthly animals? McGonagall is a cat, Sirius was a dog, James was a stag, Peter is a rat, Rita is a beetle ... those all seem to fit into the animal kingdom, don't they?
Solitaire
Muggle Doctor - Feb 9, 2005 11:00 pm (#1348 of 2486)
I know we're getting somewhat off-topic here, but I can't resist it with all the speculation on animagus forms... what if Luna Lovegood's mother was trying to manage an Animagus transformation when she died, and the animal which fate had chosen for her was a thestral?
Choices - Feb 10, 2005 10:22 am (#1349 of 2486)
So far we have not seen any animagi who turn into an animal other than a regular, everyday creature. They don't turn into magical animals, so I think it is not likely that we will see that. It would seem that they would have more freedom to roam around if they were a common animal that a Muggle would not be surprised or shocked to see. Like McGonagall as the cat on Privet Drive. She fit in perfectly well, but had she been a thestral or a unicorn - wow, can you imagine the reaction?
Solitaire - Feb 12, 2005 11:43 am (#1350 of 2486)
I tend to agree, Choices. Also, as she had been seeing Thestrals for a while, I think Luna would certainly have said something if her mother had been trying to transform into one.
It seems to me that normal, mundane, everyday animals are probably the most practical for transformations. Transforming into a cat, a dog, or a rat is certainly more practical, if you ask me, than transforming into a stag. I mean, a cat or dog can kind of nose around most places without attracting undue attention. And a rat form would certainly be useful in some specific situations. But a stag? Hm ... Around here, in fact, Prongs would have to be careful not to transform during hunting season! Otherwise, he might wind up as someone's venison dinner!
Solitaire
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Choices - Feb 12, 2005 1:49 pm (#1351 of 2486)
LOL That is so true Solitaire. Where I live his head would be hanging over the fireplace and the rest of him would be on the dinner table.
Solitaire - Feb 12, 2005 1:58 pm (#1352 of 2486)
Yes, I forgot about his "prongs." They would be considered a trophy and hung up on a wall or fireplace, here, as well.
Potions Mistress - Feb 12, 2005 5:16 pm (#1353 of 2486)
Solitaire and Choices, I know you two were joking, but your comments got me thinking: if one dies while transformed, do they stay in that form or do they revert back to being human? (If it's the latter, woe to any hunter who might have got Prongs.)
~pm
Choices - Feb 12, 2005 7:54 pm (#1354 of 2486)
That would be scary - suddenly your deer head over the mantle turns out to be James' head. Not only would it be scary, it would be darn hard to explain to the "please-men" when they arrived. LOL
But to answer your question - and it is only my opinion - I would venture to guess that the transformation would reverse itself if the transformer died while transformed. Yeah, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.....a permanent sticking charm has been applied. LOL
Solitaire - Feb 12, 2005 7:54 pm (#1355 of 2486)
Actually, I was only sort of joking, PM. I do think some animagus forms would be quite impractical. For example, I really would not want to be a beetle. I realize it is awfully useful for Rita Skeeter, but frankly, I think it would be far too easy to be killed. As for Prongs ... unless he wanted to run around in the wilderness (and where I live, he might as well wear a big bullseye), I rather doubt he would find his form too useful for anything other than keeping Remus in check. Well, perhaps he might find it useful to travel long distances ... although apparation would be faster.
If practicality is a consideration for an animagus's form, McGonagall and Sirius have the best animagus forms we've seen thus far, if you ask me. They have the best chance of being able to sort of blend in and wander around without attracting too much notice ... especially McG.
I'm not sure about a Wizard dying in animagus form. I suppose if Mrs. Crouch didn't transform back into herself (Polyjuice Potion) when she died, a transformed animagus might not ... but that is only a guess. This seems like an important thing to know ... so perhaps we will find out in the coming two books.
Solitaire
Edit: I see Choices disagrees. Hard to say ...
Denise P. - Feb 12, 2005 9:37 pm (#1356 of 2486)
I am just as guilty for jumping off topic here but perhaps the Animage discussion would be better suited to a thread devoted to Animagus.
Potions Mistress - Feb 13, 2005 8:43 am (#1357 of 2486)
Right-o, Denise! Back to Hermione...Concerning SPEW, I think Hermione is (unconciously) just as prejudiced against House-elves as the rest of the WW, though she does take an opposite tack on this: while the majority of the WW believes that House-elves are happy in their position, (and with the exception of Dobby, that belief seems well justified at this time), Hermione firmly believes that they would be happier free and so sets about trying to free them. However, we have no evidence that ANY wizard has bothered to ask the House-elves about the enslavement/freedom question. Hermione's a smart girl, so I think with time and maybe a little prodding, she will be the first to seriously talk about this with the House-elves, but for now, her (unconcious) prejudices make her drive to free them almost as bad as the rest of the WW which wants to continue to enslave them (though at least her desires are more noble).
~pm
PS: I have to laugh at this thread, because we all go off on so many tangents that are related to Hermione, and yet aren't specifically about her! LOL
Ydnam96 - Feb 13, 2005 8:55 am (#1358 of 2486)
You know I"m not sure she is "prejudiced" against the House-Elves. I think rather, that she is guilty of falling prey to a stereotype. Rather than see any exceptions and the house elves as individuals she has glumped them togther. But, to her credit she has spoken to several house elves (not necessarily the 'norm' so to say though), but she should perhaps talk to more than just Winky and Dobby. It seems to me that the house elves in the Hogwars kitchen wanted nothing to do with leaving the lifestyle they were in and saw Dobby as a disgrace. Sometimes people just don't understand how another society/culture works because it doesn't fit in with their culture.
I would say that Hermione is well intentioned, but blinded by her understanding of how culture should work. She's not predjudiced (because to me that has negative conotations) just misguided and blinded by her intellegince.
Weeny Owl - Feb 13, 2005 1:16 pm (#1359 of 2486)
I don't think Hermione is prejudiced against House-Elves, but I do wonder if she isn't a tad prejudiced against centaurs. Her reaction in the first book and her comments about Firenze made me wonder.
ex-FAHgeek - Feb 13, 2005 2:46 pm (#1360 of 2486)
---quote--- I don't think Hermione is prejudiced against House-Elves, but I do wonder if she isn't a tad prejudiced against centaurs. Her reaction in the first book and her comments about Firenze made me wonder. ---end quote---
I don't think she's particularly prejudiced for or against them, although I do think she received a bit of a nasty shock when she assumed that she could talk to them and ask for help without getting the hostility that none of them experienced from Firenze. I think it's more of an assumption that she'd make about any sentient being/humanoid - that they all share some sort of reasonably diplomatic tendancy and can be reasoned with on an imaginary "neutral ground" rather than taking into account the cultural paradigms in which they exist.
Weeny Owl - Feb 13, 2005 9:53 pm (#1361 of 2486)
No, I mean when Firenze came in to the school and she said she didn't like horses. Lavendar or Parvati said Firenze wasn't a horse but a centaur... a gorgeous centaur. Hermione said something about how it didn't matter since he still walked on four legs.
Ydnam96 - Feb 13, 2005 11:36 pm (#1362 of 2486)
I think that comment had more to do with Lavendar & Parvatti and not Ferienze himself. I read it as a sarcastic remark to two young ladies who are easily swayed.
Weeny Owl - Feb 13, 2005 11:44 pm (#1363 of 2486)
Perhaps, but after the first book it seems that maybe Hermione just doesn't like centaurs.
sir nicholas - Feb 14, 2005 3:55 am (#1364 of 2486)
Hermione doesn't really like centaurs, and perhaps she's also a bit irritated with Parvati and Lavender, but I think that after hers and Harry's (and Umbridge's) adventure with centaurs in the forest, I wouldn't be surprised if she would actually come to hate them.
Chemyst - Feb 14, 2005 5:29 pm (#1365 of 2486)
...but I think that after hers and Harry's (and Umbridge's) adventure with centaurs in the forest, I wouldn't be surprised if she would actually come to hate them.
Really? Hmm... I'd think that after seeing the effects of Umbridge's adventure with centaurs in the forest, Hermione would actually gain respect for them.
Catherine - Feb 14, 2005 5:44 pm (#1366 of 2486)
I always thought Hermione's comment about not being fond of horses came from the ride on Buckbeak before they rescued Sirius.
She commented that she really didn't enjoy riding on Buckbeak. Even the movie version supported this view; Hermione mentioned that she really didn't like flying.
I also thought her comments about the "four legs" showed that she realized that the centaurs were, in their own mind, "a race apart." She may not have fully understood their nature, as shown in OoP, but she realized their essential "otherness" to the point that she was not beguiled by Firenze's handsome looks.
Weeny Owl - Feb 14, 2005 9:17 pm (#1367 of 2486)
My feeling comes more from the first book when she asks Hagrid if there "are any more of them around." The italics are JKR's and not mine.
Eric Bailey - Feb 15, 2005 2:24 am (#1368 of 2486)
I figured she made the horse comment to point out the problem to the girls crushing on the centaur. If she'd gone any further into explaining the problem of crushing on centaurs, it wouldn't have been family friendly.
librarian314 - Feb 15, 2005 8:46 am (#1369 of 2486)
Hey all!
I don't know if I'd call it prejudice or not. I'm going to have to go back and check the bits where Hermione and centaurs interact.
There may be something there though. I could definitely see centaurs as just being too weird for Hermione. Remember, she spent almost 12 years (her birth year is 1979, so she turned 12 about 3 weeks into her first year at Hogwarts) as a Muggle. Centaurs are pure myth to us. I think I'd be pretty freaked if I were to meet one.
The magical creatures Hermione has met so far have been easily classifiable like cute but mostly harmless (nifflers), monsters (pick any creature met in DADA), really nice people with awful afflictions (Remus), fairy tale creatures (unicorns, house elves, trolls, goblins, giants) and mythical creatures (hippogriffs and centaurs).
Even though centaurs are a mythical creature they are the weirdest combination of human and creature, she has come across. House elves, trolls, goblins, and giants are all fairly humanoid: one head, two arms, two legs, etc. Centaurs are not.
Depending on how big the horse parts of a centaur are (are they Percheron-sized, quarter horse-sized, pony-sized) and if the human parts are sized accordingly, they could be pretty intimidating size wise.
Centaurs are also highly intelligent. The only other humanoid creatures that we have met that have human-like intelligence are the goblins and house-elves. The house elves are presented to be more like children and so can be easily dismissed by Hermione as not being as smart as she is. We don't have enough interaction with the goblins to make a determination.
I can see centaurs just being too much for her. They don't fit her mold of how things are. They are smarter than critters should be. She's not as flexible as some others in dealing with some of the surprises that the magical world chucks in front of her. She needs some time to absorb them and classify them into a little box. Centaurs don't let her do that.
*michelle the librarian**
ex-FAHgeek - Feb 15, 2005 1:13 pm (#1370 of 2486)
Edited by Denise P. Feb 15, 2005 12:49 pm
---quote--- I figured she made the horse comment to point out the problem to the girls crushing on the centaur. If she'd gone any further into explaining the problem of crushing on centaurs, it wouldn't have been family friendly. ---end quote---
That was definitely my interpretation of the scene.
MickeyCee3948 - Feb 15, 2005 3:06 pm (#1371 of 2486)
I don't think it's a big deal. I doubt if Hermione is prejudiced aganist any animal, she just doesn't really care for them all. She doesn't exactly strike up a friendship with any of the animals in Hagrid's Magical Creatures Class. Crookshank's is really the only animal she seems to care for.
In OotP, I think she was using her head. She knew the Centaurs were mad at humans and would frown on anyone invading the privacy of the forest, and she remembered their comments about not harming foals so she lead Umbridge in and let the toad's personality take over. It almost backfired on her when the Centaurs got upset about the repeated intrusion from H&H but they survived and Umbridge didn't so the problem was taken care of. JM2K's.
Mikie
Hollywand - Feb 15, 2005 7:09 pm (#1372 of 2486)
Hmmm. I never noticed Hermione's fear of the centaurs, but it could be a significant clue. One famous Greek myth involves the Lapiths and Centaurs. The centaurs are invited over for a little feast, get drunk, and become quite violent. Hmmm.
In the Potter series, Centaurs are characters almost completely opposite the House Elves in temperament. Hmmmmm.
Choices - Feb 15, 2005 7:18 pm (#1373 of 2486)
Hermione's attitude toward the Centaurs is interesting, as is Hagrid's. He usually is very good with the forest creatures, but refers to the Centaurs as "bloody star-gazers". He doesn't seem to get along with them as well. Perhaps Hermione views them in the same light as she views Trelawney/Divination.....a very wooley discipline.
Solitaire - Feb 15, 2005 9:34 pm (#1374 of 2486)
The Centaurs are not only intelligent, they have a kind of prejudice of their own. They attacked Firenze for "peddling our knowledge and secrets among humans." Hm, now who does that sound like? A bit like Salazar Slytherin, perhaps? It seems that the Centaurs have the same sorts of divisions among themselves as the WW at large.
Magorian appears at first to be the Centaur "in charge" of the group in the FF. While he is resentful of Firenze and of Hagrid, who interfered and saved Firenze from their "sentence" ... he does seem to abide by a code of ethics when it comes to not hurting the kids--or "the innocent," as he calls them. Bane, on the other hand, is more hard-nosed--he would yield no quarter.
I believe the Centaurs resent what must appear to be arrogance on Hermione's part. They stated back in PS/SS that they do not set themselves against what has been foretold in the stars and planets. They see Firenze's agreement to teach the kids as a betrayal of the greatest degree. So what does Hermione do? She brazenly marches out into the forest and counts on them to "take care of" Umbridge--whom she knew would insult them--and they "take umbrage" at her actions.
I will agree that Hermione may have written off Firenze as a star-gazer at first. I'm willing to bet, however, that she she may have changed her mind about him, after learning what the other Centaurs are ... and I doubt she will ever take them and their actions for granted again.
Solitaire
Ludicrous Patents Office - Feb 17, 2005 7:47 pm (#1375 of 2486)
Centaurs have their own lives and culture. They do not have the same agendas as humans. They think very differently. Hermione has a hard time understanding that other beings do not necessarily have the same value system as humans do. LPO
Gerald Costales - Feb 18, 2005 10:03 pm (#1376 of 2486)
"They do not have the same agendas as humans. They think very differently. Hermione has a hard time understanding that other beings do not necessarily have the same value system as humans do." LPO
Sounds like Hermione's relationship to House-Elves.
I agree with *michelle the librarian** comments in post #1369
"I can see centaurs just being too much for her. They don't fit her mold of how things are."
I wonder how anyone of us would handle suddenly being in a Magical Wizarding World. ;-) GC
Choices - Feb 19, 2005 8:00 pm (#1377 of 2486)
Gerald - "I wonder how anyone of us would handle suddenly being in a Magical Wizarding World". ;-)
I don't know, but I'm willing to give it a shot. Sign me up and I promise to come back and tell you all about it.....although, if I really like it I might not come back at all. I wouldn't mind calling Hogwarts home." LOL
Solitaire - Feb 19, 2005 8:45 pm (#1378 of 2486)
Ditto, Choices. I bet could teach Magical History as well as Professor Binns--even if I'm not a Wizard! I may not be a ghost, either, but I can certainly read and think, and my classes and projects would be a lot more fun and lively than his! LOL
You know, I can see Hermione teaching Wizard History. She has referred to Hogwarts: A History more times than any professor, and I bet she has read it through more times than any of them, too.
Solitaire
TomProffitt - Feb 19, 2005 9:33 pm (#1379 of 2486)
Let me teach Divination while we're rearranging the faculty. I'd be able to keep Hermione interested enough to stay in class. (I think.)
dizzy lizzy - Feb 19, 2005 11:00 pm (#1380 of 2486)
I'll teach muggle studies - I know an awful lot about nothing. That should be the ticket to get Hermione back in the class...
For example: knitting lessons...
Ydnam96 - Feb 20, 2005 10:04 am (#1381 of 2486)
to get back on topic I wonder what it is that Hermonie doesn't like about Luna?
Is it that she just doesn't like that Luna likes Ron?
Is it that she just doesn't like that Luna is "flighty"?
Is it that she feels threatened by someone who is quite intelligent?
Or is it for some other reason?
Choices - Feb 20, 2005 10:19 am (#1382 of 2486)
I don't think it's that Hermione doesn't like Luna, I think it's just hard for someone who is very logical and intelligent to understand and feel close to someone who is such a dreamer and basically a loner. Luna probably is smart, but she presents like a "space cadet" and she tends to wear weird things and act weird. I just think Hermione can't comprehend anyone like Luna - they are so totally different. Often when we can't understand something or someone, we tend to put it down and just not bother with it. I think this is how Hermione sees Luna - she doesn't necessarily dislike her, but just finds her too strange to bother with.
Weeny Owl - Feb 20, 2005 1:06 pm (#1383 of 2486)
I think that at first Hermione dismissed Luna as a nutcase. Between her father owning The Quibbler and her general dottiness, Hermione just couldn't relate to her.
After a while, though, I think Hermione realized that there was more to Luna than appeared on the surface, and while she may never truly be able to relate to Luna, she knows that Luna isn't just weird. Luna is weird, yes, but not just weird.
Steve Newton - Feb 20, 2005 2:58 pm (#1384 of 2486)
Up to the end of OOTP I got the impression that Hermione thought that Luna was a little, or a lot, strange. I think that she tolerates Luna but has trouble taking her seriously because to things like the crumple horned snorkack. Luna has earned some respect, in Hermione's opinion, by sticking by Harry and performing quite well during the battle.
Gerald Costales - Feb 20, 2005 8:35 pm (#1385 of 2486)
I think Luna is as intelligent as Hermione but in a different way. Hermione is drawn to real and hard ideas like Arithmancy and Ancient Runes not speculative and soft ideas like Divination and Crumple-Horned Snorkacks. Hermione tends to see many things like SPEW in terms of Black & White. Freedom is Good. So, freedom is Good for all House-Elves.
Luna is more forgiving and understanding. Just look how Luna handles a big problem.
. . . . “Well, I’ve lost most of my possessions,” said Luna serenely. “People take them and hide them, you know. But as it’s the last night, I really do need them back, so I’ve been putting up signs.”
(OoP, page 862, American hardback edition)
Most of us would classify having “lost” most of our possessions as a big problem. But Luna is serenely putting up signs to recover her things.
Now, Hermione wouldn’t be caught putting up signs if her possessions were taken. Just ask Rita Skeeter and Marietta Edgecombe about crossing Hermione. Hermione is an angel, but she is certainly an avenging angel when necessary. Hermione ferreted (or should that be ottered) out that spying beetle Rita and imprisoned her in a jar. Hermione also jinxed the DA’s parchment and that traitor Marietta is speckled with Purple Pimples that spell out “SNEAK” across Marietta’s guilty face. Luna acts like a dove while Hermione acts like a hawk.
And there is that spiritual side of Luna that I doubt Hermione has.
. . . . “Have you . . .” he began. “I mean, who . . . Has anyone you’ve known ever died?”
. . . . “Yes,” said Luna simply, “my mother. She was a quite extraordinary witch, you know, but she did like to experiment and one of her spells went rather badly wrong one day. I was nine.”
. . . . “I’m sorry,” Harry mumbled.
. . . . “Yes, it was rather horrible,” said Luna conversationally. “I still feel very sad about it sometimes. But I’ve still got Dad. And anyway, it’s not as though I’ll never see Mum again, is it?”
. . . . “Er -- isn’t it?” said Harry uncertainly.
. . . . She shook her head in disbelief. “Oh, come on. You heard them, just behind the veil, didn’t you.?”
. . . . “You mean . . . “
. . . . “In that room with the archway. They were just lurking out of sight, that’s all. You heard them.”
. . . . They looked at each other. Luna was just smiling slightly. Harry did not know what to say, or to think. Luna believed so many extraordinary things . . . Yet he had been sure he had heard voices behind the veil too . . .
(OoP, page 863, American hardback edition)
Luna is most certainly an extraordinary witch. And Hermione is just extraordinary but in other things and in different ways. ;-) GC
PS I really like Hermione. But I wouldn’t dare cross her personally. Hermione is best your friend and hopefully never your enemy. Hermione has grown into an extremely talented and confident young witch. And Hermione is a far cry from that little rejected and crying girl in Book 1 who needed to be rescued from a Mountain Troll by Harry and Ron. ;-) GC
Eric Bailey - Feb 21, 2005 1:47 am (#1386 of 2486)
Well, there's the fact that Luna is Hermione's equal in a lot of ways. She's sort of Hermione's other half, equally smart (Ravenclaw, remember) but intuitive. Hermione focuses on objects, while Luna focuses on the spaces in between. Antosha's essay in the Lexicon described the relationship between the two best...
"Luna is clearly Hermione's mirror. I think Hermione's rationalism, which is such an important part of the trio's dynamic, has it's downside: an unwillingness to leap before looking; a fear of the unknown. We've watched Hermione freeze up in just about every book because her studies haven't provided her with the answer. Usually Ron and Harry have to pull/prod/jolly Hermione past these crises ("Are you a witch or aren't you!"). Freud and Jung would say that the thing you're afraid of is the thing you buried, the thing you secretly want to do. But now we have Luna who is Hermione's physical photo-negative (blonde fluffy hair instead of brown), who is, like Hermione, brainy, if in an entirely different way, and who EMBODIES all of the things Hermione most lacks: intuition and faith. Not big-F Faith, because, thankfully, we haven't gotten a straight sermon in the books yet, and if we do I'll scream. But little-f faith in the possibility of the world operating on laws that transcend the limits of mere physics, chemistry and biology. (This is, after all, a universe where magic works.) I think that Luna's 'fuzziness' gets under Hermione's skin precisely because it is so SCARY to her."
I think they'll get to be pretty close, as, between them, I don't think there's any problem they can't put their heads together and come up with a solution for. Besides, Luna's in a position to get Hermione's SPEW essay published.
Gerald Costales - Feb 21, 2005 8:12 am (#1387 of 2486)
"I think they'll get to be pretty close, as, between them, I don't think there's any problem they can't put their heads together and come up with a solution for. Besides, Luna's in a position to get Hermione's SPEW essay published." Eric Bailey
Eric - Great post.
I believe that SPEW or really the Right of House-Elves to Choice Freedom or Tradition will be important. The traditional needs and hidden reasons for why House-Elves serve Wizards may have probably long vanished.
But, I doubt it will be Hermione who rallies the House-Elves against Voldermort and the Death Eaters in this Second Wizard War. I believe most likely that it will Dumbledore. Why else are there 100 House-Elves at Hogwarts?
Or could it be that the HBP is this Messenger or Savior to the House-Elves? Or is it possibly Dobby?!?! (Yes, I believe Dobby could be the HBP and the Messenger for Freedom of House-Elves!)
House-Elves of the Wizarding World Unite! Cast off your Oppression! ;-) GC
Muggle Doctor - Feb 22, 2005 2:38 pm (#1388 of 2486)
You would have to prove, though, that Dobby was half house-elf, half something else for him to be the "half-blood prince". What's the only thing that's even near house-elf size? Goblin? He doesn't look it, and you'd expect SOME of the Goblin to wash in and change his appearance... Or do house-elves have Muggles too? And I don't even want to THINK about a house-elf/human cross (although Hagrid's parents seem to have managed a similar size difference...)
Choices - Feb 22, 2005 6:44 pm (#1389 of 2486)
Well, now that Dobby is free and "wants payin'", maybe there is a little (no pun intended) goblin in his family tree. LOL
Meanie Mom - Feb 24, 2005 10:06 pm (#1390 of 2486)
I agree with Eric's post about Luna and Hermione. I think they are 2 sides of the same Galleon.
Was it Sherlock Holmes who said "When you have eliminated all the POSSIBLE scenerios, the solution must be the IMPOSSIBLE." I think that is personified by Luna. She seems to relish the impossible and never fears to embrace it and try to get everyone else to accept it also.
JMTK Mary kay
Muggle Doctor - Feb 25, 2005 4:30 am (#1391 of 2486)
Holmes' quote was more exactly: "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains - however improbable - must be the truth."
In real life, however, there is usually more than one likely option. Hermione reflects one of these options, what the Mentats of Frank Herbert's immortal Dune called a "straight line computation." Luna is the other side of the coin, the "second approximation."
For the sake of Hermione's personal development, I would like her to be confronted with a few things:
1) A photograph, or living example, of a crumple-horned Snorkack.
2) A heliopath to battle, with Fudge holding the leash.
3) A house-elf who begged her not to free him.
Gerald Costales - Feb 25, 2005 7:50 pm (#1392 of 2486)
(re: Post#1388)
"And I don't even want to THINK about a house-elf/human cross. . ." Muggle Doctor
A House-Elf/Human cross could account for Peter Pettigrew's child-like stature. Wormtail does have a House-Elf-like need to serve Wizards, first James, Remus, and Lupin and eventually Voldermort. But, I doubt Wormtail is the HBP.
If there are House-Elves could there be or have been Field-Elves? There were House Slaves and Field Slaves weren't there. A servant House-Elf would have been breed for good manners and intelligence. With the exception of Kreacher, both Dobby and Winky seem very intelligent and mild-mannered. A worker Field-Elf would have been breed for hard labor - brute strength, etc. Brute strength and cunning could have been a dangerous mix. And as dangerous breeds are banned and fade from popularity then the Field-Elf breed of Elf could have disappeared.
Could Dobby have the remaining bloodlines of this now non-existent Field-Elf breed? Who knows? Hermione is an ardent advocate for House-Elves. But, I doubt it will be Hermione that will lead the House-Elves to freedom. Thus, my feeling that either Dobby or Dumbledore will lead the House-Elves in the Second Wizard War. ;-) GC
Leif Asgeirsson - Feb 28, 2005 2:48 pm (#1393 of 2486)
Don't you think that something may be revealed in later books about how Hermione seems to always remember things? I am referring to the occasions such as in the fifth book, when Hermione quotes Dumbledore's speech from the year before, and Ron asks her how she can remember that, and she says, "I listen, Ron!"
This seems like the way JKR normally foreshadows things, just slipping it in there...
What do you think?
Meanie Mom - Feb 28, 2005 2:54 pm (#1394 of 2486)
Muggle Doctor, thanks for the correction on Sherlock Holmes quote. I should have said I was paraphrasing (very badly as it turns out).
However, I do see Luna being open to the improbable while Hermione is too hung up on the logical.
Mary Kay
Betelgeuse Black - Feb 28, 2005 3:58 pm (#1395 of 2486)
I wanted to pose a question that I couldn't find an answer for using the search feature. I remember Hermione being asked about the protean charm and why she wasn't in Ravenclaw with brains like hers. I don't remember the exact quote but she said that the sorting hat considered it but settled on Gryffindor in the end.
Why Gryffindor? I think she, like Harry, had the natural disposition to go into another house but she, like Harry, chose to be a Gryffindor. Why? I think she may have felt that she needed to develop the brave and bold qualities and chose to push herself to develop these qualities.
What do the rest of you think?
Betelgeuse
Catherine - Feb 28, 2005 4:05 pm (#1396 of 2486)
I think that the Sorting Hat put Hermione in the House that she asked for. We know from the train ride to Hogwarts in SS that she perceives Gryffindor to be the best House, with Ravenclaw the next best choice.
Hermione may be a near-genius, but even she, as early as SS, discounts her cleverness and learning when telling Harry that he is a great wizard.
She has proven herself a worthy Gryffindor many times over, in my opinion.
Chemyst - Feb 28, 2005 5:22 pm (#1397 of 2486)
- from PS/SS7 - Hermione almost ran to the stool and jammed the hat eagerly on her head.
That does seem overly rambunctious for a house "where those of wit and learning will always find their kind." A true Ravenclaw probably wouldn't wave their hand in the air at every question either. And the Hat itself claims only to sort what is already in a student's mind, not to play god via foreknowledge. So, I agree that the Sorting Hat put Hermione in the House that she asked for. It was her choice.
Muggle Doctor - Feb 28, 2005 6:14 pm (#1398 of 2486)
And on that topic, speaking of choices, what if (a big IF) Harry had walked up to the Sorting hat NOT having met Draco Malfoy and with no prior knowledge of Slytherin's reputation?
Choices - Feb 28, 2005 6:41 pm (#1399 of 2486)
Ohhh, good question Muggle Doc. Harry, having no preconceived notions about any of the houses, would have had to settle for placement by the Sorting Hat. With no input from Harry, there is no telling where it would have put him - Gryffindor or Slytherin. If it had decided on Slytherin, how different these books would have been.
Solitaire - Feb 28, 2005 9:05 pm (#1400 of 2486)
I do see Luna being open to the improbable while Hermione is too hung up on the logical.
Before comparing the girls in this way, Meanie, I think it is important to remember that Luna comes from a Wizarding family, so she has grown up with the improbable as a normal fact of life.
Hermione comes from a Muggle background. Not only that, her parents are dentists, which means they are doctors--people of science. I think it is safe to say that Hermione was probably brought up to value the intellectual over the intuitive. For about a year I lived with a dental assistant. I also worked for a dentist, and I have a friend who is a hygenist. I can tell you from experience and from people who work closely with dentists that they tend to be perfectionists. This is not a flaw; the very nature of dental work demands that it be precise. All it takes is one tiny, infinitesimal thing to be "off," and the patient will be miserable. Perhaps being raised in such an atmosphere accounts for Hermione's high-achiever, perfectionist tendencies.
I believe there is a little insecurity in Hermione, which manifests itself in the way she goes above and beyond everyone else in doing her homework. She wants to prove that she is as good as any Wizarding kid, so maybe she tries too hard. To be honest, after some of the lazy kids I have seen lately on a daily basis, a committed, hard-working overachiever sounds like a nice change!
Solitaire
LOL That is so true Solitaire. Where I live his head would be hanging over the fireplace and the rest of him would be on the dinner table.
Solitaire - Feb 12, 2005 1:58 pm (#1352 of 2486)
Yes, I forgot about his "prongs." They would be considered a trophy and hung up on a wall or fireplace, here, as well.
Potions Mistress - Feb 12, 2005 5:16 pm (#1353 of 2486)
Solitaire and Choices, I know you two were joking, but your comments got me thinking: if one dies while transformed, do they stay in that form or do they revert back to being human? (If it's the latter, woe to any hunter who might have got Prongs.)
~pm
Choices - Feb 12, 2005 7:54 pm (#1354 of 2486)
That would be scary - suddenly your deer head over the mantle turns out to be James' head. Not only would it be scary, it would be darn hard to explain to the "please-men" when they arrived. LOL
But to answer your question - and it is only my opinion - I would venture to guess that the transformation would reverse itself if the transformer died while transformed. Yeah, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.....a permanent sticking charm has been applied. LOL
Solitaire - Feb 12, 2005 7:54 pm (#1355 of 2486)
Actually, I was only sort of joking, PM. I do think some animagus forms would be quite impractical. For example, I really would not want to be a beetle. I realize it is awfully useful for Rita Skeeter, but frankly, I think it would be far too easy to be killed. As for Prongs ... unless he wanted to run around in the wilderness (and where I live, he might as well wear a big bullseye), I rather doubt he would find his form too useful for anything other than keeping Remus in check. Well, perhaps he might find it useful to travel long distances ... although apparation would be faster.
If practicality is a consideration for an animagus's form, McGonagall and Sirius have the best animagus forms we've seen thus far, if you ask me. They have the best chance of being able to sort of blend in and wander around without attracting too much notice ... especially McG.
I'm not sure about a Wizard dying in animagus form. I suppose if Mrs. Crouch didn't transform back into herself (Polyjuice Potion) when she died, a transformed animagus might not ... but that is only a guess. This seems like an important thing to know ... so perhaps we will find out in the coming two books.
Solitaire
Edit: I see Choices disagrees. Hard to say ...
Denise P. - Feb 12, 2005 9:37 pm (#1356 of 2486)
I am just as guilty for jumping off topic here but perhaps the Animage discussion would be better suited to a thread devoted to Animagus.
Potions Mistress - Feb 13, 2005 8:43 am (#1357 of 2486)
Right-o, Denise! Back to Hermione...Concerning SPEW, I think Hermione is (unconciously) just as prejudiced against House-elves as the rest of the WW, though she does take an opposite tack on this: while the majority of the WW believes that House-elves are happy in their position, (and with the exception of Dobby, that belief seems well justified at this time), Hermione firmly believes that they would be happier free and so sets about trying to free them. However, we have no evidence that ANY wizard has bothered to ask the House-elves about the enslavement/freedom question. Hermione's a smart girl, so I think with time and maybe a little prodding, she will be the first to seriously talk about this with the House-elves, but for now, her (unconcious) prejudices make her drive to free them almost as bad as the rest of the WW which wants to continue to enslave them (though at least her desires are more noble).
~pm
PS: I have to laugh at this thread, because we all go off on so many tangents that are related to Hermione, and yet aren't specifically about her! LOL
Ydnam96 - Feb 13, 2005 8:55 am (#1358 of 2486)
You know I"m not sure she is "prejudiced" against the House-Elves. I think rather, that she is guilty of falling prey to a stereotype. Rather than see any exceptions and the house elves as individuals she has glumped them togther. But, to her credit she has spoken to several house elves (not necessarily the 'norm' so to say though), but she should perhaps talk to more than just Winky and Dobby. It seems to me that the house elves in the Hogwars kitchen wanted nothing to do with leaving the lifestyle they were in and saw Dobby as a disgrace. Sometimes people just don't understand how another society/culture works because it doesn't fit in with their culture.
I would say that Hermione is well intentioned, but blinded by her understanding of how culture should work. She's not predjudiced (because to me that has negative conotations) just misguided and blinded by her intellegince.
Weeny Owl - Feb 13, 2005 1:16 pm (#1359 of 2486)
I don't think Hermione is prejudiced against House-Elves, but I do wonder if she isn't a tad prejudiced against centaurs. Her reaction in the first book and her comments about Firenze made me wonder.
ex-FAHgeek - Feb 13, 2005 2:46 pm (#1360 of 2486)
---quote--- I don't think Hermione is prejudiced against House-Elves, but I do wonder if she isn't a tad prejudiced against centaurs. Her reaction in the first book and her comments about Firenze made me wonder. ---end quote---
I don't think she's particularly prejudiced for or against them, although I do think she received a bit of a nasty shock when she assumed that she could talk to them and ask for help without getting the hostility that none of them experienced from Firenze. I think it's more of an assumption that she'd make about any sentient being/humanoid - that they all share some sort of reasonably diplomatic tendancy and can be reasoned with on an imaginary "neutral ground" rather than taking into account the cultural paradigms in which they exist.
Weeny Owl - Feb 13, 2005 9:53 pm (#1361 of 2486)
No, I mean when Firenze came in to the school and she said she didn't like horses. Lavendar or Parvati said Firenze wasn't a horse but a centaur... a gorgeous centaur. Hermione said something about how it didn't matter since he still walked on four legs.
Ydnam96 - Feb 13, 2005 11:36 pm (#1362 of 2486)
I think that comment had more to do with Lavendar & Parvatti and not Ferienze himself. I read it as a sarcastic remark to two young ladies who are easily swayed.
Weeny Owl - Feb 13, 2005 11:44 pm (#1363 of 2486)
Perhaps, but after the first book it seems that maybe Hermione just doesn't like centaurs.
sir nicholas - Feb 14, 2005 3:55 am (#1364 of 2486)
Hermione doesn't really like centaurs, and perhaps she's also a bit irritated with Parvati and Lavender, but I think that after hers and Harry's (and Umbridge's) adventure with centaurs in the forest, I wouldn't be surprised if she would actually come to hate them.
Chemyst - Feb 14, 2005 5:29 pm (#1365 of 2486)
...but I think that after hers and Harry's (and Umbridge's) adventure with centaurs in the forest, I wouldn't be surprised if she would actually come to hate them.
Really? Hmm... I'd think that after seeing the effects of Umbridge's adventure with centaurs in the forest, Hermione would actually gain respect for them.
Catherine - Feb 14, 2005 5:44 pm (#1366 of 2486)
I always thought Hermione's comment about not being fond of horses came from the ride on Buckbeak before they rescued Sirius.
She commented that she really didn't enjoy riding on Buckbeak. Even the movie version supported this view; Hermione mentioned that she really didn't like flying.
I also thought her comments about the "four legs" showed that she realized that the centaurs were, in their own mind, "a race apart." She may not have fully understood their nature, as shown in OoP, but she realized their essential "otherness" to the point that she was not beguiled by Firenze's handsome looks.
Weeny Owl - Feb 14, 2005 9:17 pm (#1367 of 2486)
My feeling comes more from the first book when she asks Hagrid if there "are any more of them around." The italics are JKR's and not mine.
Eric Bailey - Feb 15, 2005 2:24 am (#1368 of 2486)
I figured she made the horse comment to point out the problem to the girls crushing on the centaur. If she'd gone any further into explaining the problem of crushing on centaurs, it wouldn't have been family friendly.
librarian314 - Feb 15, 2005 8:46 am (#1369 of 2486)
Hey all!
I don't know if I'd call it prejudice or not. I'm going to have to go back and check the bits where Hermione and centaurs interact.
There may be something there though. I could definitely see centaurs as just being too weird for Hermione. Remember, she spent almost 12 years (her birth year is 1979, so she turned 12 about 3 weeks into her first year at Hogwarts) as a Muggle. Centaurs are pure myth to us. I think I'd be pretty freaked if I were to meet one.
The magical creatures Hermione has met so far have been easily classifiable like cute but mostly harmless (nifflers), monsters (pick any creature met in DADA), really nice people with awful afflictions (Remus), fairy tale creatures (unicorns, house elves, trolls, goblins, giants) and mythical creatures (hippogriffs and centaurs).
Even though centaurs are a mythical creature they are the weirdest combination of human and creature, she has come across. House elves, trolls, goblins, and giants are all fairly humanoid: one head, two arms, two legs, etc. Centaurs are not.
Depending on how big the horse parts of a centaur are (are they Percheron-sized, quarter horse-sized, pony-sized) and if the human parts are sized accordingly, they could be pretty intimidating size wise.
Centaurs are also highly intelligent. The only other humanoid creatures that we have met that have human-like intelligence are the goblins and house-elves. The house elves are presented to be more like children and so can be easily dismissed by Hermione as not being as smart as she is. We don't have enough interaction with the goblins to make a determination.
I can see centaurs just being too much for her. They don't fit her mold of how things are. They are smarter than critters should be. She's not as flexible as some others in dealing with some of the surprises that the magical world chucks in front of her. She needs some time to absorb them and classify them into a little box. Centaurs don't let her do that.
*michelle the librarian**
ex-FAHgeek - Feb 15, 2005 1:13 pm (#1370 of 2486)
Edited by Denise P. Feb 15, 2005 12:49 pm
---quote--- I figured she made the horse comment to point out the problem to the girls crushing on the centaur. If she'd gone any further into explaining the problem of crushing on centaurs, it wouldn't have been family friendly.
---end quote--- That was definitely my interpretation of the scene.
MickeyCee3948 - Feb 15, 2005 3:06 pm (#1371 of 2486)
I don't think it's a big deal. I doubt if Hermione is prejudiced aganist any animal, she just doesn't really care for them all. She doesn't exactly strike up a friendship with any of the animals in Hagrid's Magical Creatures Class. Crookshank's is really the only animal she seems to care for.
In OotP, I think she was using her head. She knew the Centaurs were mad at humans and would frown on anyone invading the privacy of the forest, and she remembered their comments about not harming foals so she lead Umbridge in and let the toad's personality take over. It almost backfired on her when the Centaurs got upset about the repeated intrusion from H&H but they survived and Umbridge didn't so the problem was taken care of. JM2K's.
Mikie
Hollywand - Feb 15, 2005 7:09 pm (#1372 of 2486)
Hmmm. I never noticed Hermione's fear of the centaurs, but it could be a significant clue. One famous Greek myth involves the Lapiths and Centaurs. The centaurs are invited over for a little feast, get drunk, and become quite violent. Hmmm.
In the Potter series, Centaurs are characters almost completely opposite the House Elves in temperament. Hmmmmm.
Choices - Feb 15, 2005 7:18 pm (#1373 of 2486)
Hermione's attitude toward the Centaurs is interesting, as is Hagrid's. He usually is very good with the forest creatures, but refers to the Centaurs as "bloody star-gazers". He doesn't seem to get along with them as well. Perhaps Hermione views them in the same light as she views Trelawney/Divination.....a very wooley discipline.
Solitaire - Feb 15, 2005 9:34 pm (#1374 of 2486)
The Centaurs are not only intelligent, they have a kind of prejudice of their own. They attacked Firenze for "peddling our knowledge and secrets among humans." Hm, now who does that sound like? A bit like Salazar Slytherin, perhaps? It seems that the Centaurs have the same sorts of divisions among themselves as the WW at large.
Magorian appears at first to be the Centaur "in charge" of the group in the FF. While he is resentful of Firenze and of Hagrid, who interfered and saved Firenze from their "sentence" ... he does seem to abide by a code of ethics when it comes to not hurting the kids--or "the innocent," as he calls them. Bane, on the other hand, is more hard-nosed--he would yield no quarter.
I believe the Centaurs resent what must appear to be arrogance on Hermione's part. They stated back in PS/SS that they do not set themselves against what has been foretold in the stars and planets. They see Firenze's agreement to teach the kids as a betrayal of the greatest degree. So what does Hermione do? She brazenly marches out into the forest and counts on them to "take care of" Umbridge--whom she knew would insult them--and they "take umbrage" at her actions.
I will agree that Hermione may have written off Firenze as a star-gazer at first. I'm willing to bet, however, that she she may have changed her mind about him, after learning what the other Centaurs are ... and I doubt she will ever take them and their actions for granted again.
Solitaire
Ludicrous Patents Office - Feb 17, 2005 7:47 pm (#1375 of 2486)
Centaurs have their own lives and culture. They do not have the same agendas as humans. They think very differently. Hermione has a hard time understanding that other beings do not necessarily have the same value system as humans do. LPO
Gerald Costales - Feb 18, 2005 10:03 pm (#1376 of 2486)
"They do not have the same agendas as humans. They think very differently. Hermione has a hard time understanding that other beings do not necessarily have the same value system as humans do." LPO
Sounds like Hermione's relationship to House-Elves.
I agree with *michelle the librarian** comments in post #1369
"I can see centaurs just being too much for her. They don't fit her mold of how things are."
I wonder how anyone of us would handle suddenly being in a Magical Wizarding World. ;-) GC
Choices - Feb 19, 2005 8:00 pm (#1377 of 2486)
Gerald - "I wonder how anyone of us would handle suddenly being in a Magical Wizarding World". ;-)
I don't know, but I'm willing to give it a shot. Sign me up and I promise to come back and tell you all about it.....although, if I really like it I might not come back at all. I wouldn't mind calling Hogwarts home." LOL
Solitaire - Feb 19, 2005 8:45 pm (#1378 of 2486)
Ditto, Choices. I bet could teach Magical History as well as Professor Binns--even if I'm not a Wizard! I may not be a ghost, either, but I can certainly read and think, and my classes and projects would be a lot more fun and lively than his! LOL
You know, I can see Hermione teaching Wizard History. She has referred to Hogwarts: A History more times than any professor, and I bet she has read it through more times than any of them, too.
Solitaire
TomProffitt - Feb 19, 2005 9:33 pm (#1379 of 2486)
Let me teach Divination while we're rearranging the faculty. I'd be able to keep Hermione interested enough to stay in class. (I think.)
dizzy lizzy - Feb 19, 2005 11:00 pm (#1380 of 2486)
I'll teach muggle studies - I know an awful lot about nothing. That should be the ticket to get Hermione back in the class...
For example: knitting lessons...
Ydnam96 - Feb 20, 2005 10:04 am (#1381 of 2486)
to get back on topic I wonder what it is that Hermonie doesn't like about Luna?
Is it that she just doesn't like that Luna likes Ron?
Is it that she just doesn't like that Luna is "flighty"?
Is it that she feels threatened by someone who is quite intelligent?
Or is it for some other reason?
Choices - Feb 20, 2005 10:19 am (#1382 of 2486)
I don't think it's that Hermione doesn't like Luna, I think it's just hard for someone who is very logical and intelligent to understand and feel close to someone who is such a dreamer and basically a loner. Luna probably is smart, but she presents like a "space cadet" and she tends to wear weird things and act weird. I just think Hermione can't comprehend anyone like Luna - they are so totally different. Often when we can't understand something or someone, we tend to put it down and just not bother with it. I think this is how Hermione sees Luna - she doesn't necessarily dislike her, but just finds her too strange to bother with.
Weeny Owl - Feb 20, 2005 1:06 pm (#1383 of 2486)
I think that at first Hermione dismissed Luna as a nutcase. Between her father owning The Quibbler and her general dottiness, Hermione just couldn't relate to her.
After a while, though, I think Hermione realized that there was more to Luna than appeared on the surface, and while she may never truly be able to relate to Luna, she knows that Luna isn't just weird. Luna is weird, yes, but not just weird.
Steve Newton - Feb 20, 2005 2:58 pm (#1384 of 2486)
Up to the end of OOTP I got the impression that Hermione thought that Luna was a little, or a lot, strange. I think that she tolerates Luna but has trouble taking her seriously because to things like the crumple horned snorkack. Luna has earned some respect, in Hermione's opinion, by sticking by Harry and performing quite well during the battle.
Gerald Costales - Feb 20, 2005 8:35 pm (#1385 of 2486)
I think Luna is as intelligent as Hermione but in a different way. Hermione is drawn to real and hard ideas like Arithmancy and Ancient Runes not speculative and soft ideas like Divination and Crumple-Horned Snorkacks. Hermione tends to see many things like SPEW in terms of Black & White. Freedom is Good. So, freedom is Good for all House-Elves.
Luna is more forgiving and understanding. Just look how Luna handles a big problem.
. . . . “Well, I’ve lost most of my possessions,” said Luna serenely. “People take them and hide them, you know. But as it’s the last night, I really do need them back, so I’ve been putting up signs.”
(OoP, page 862, American hardback edition)
Most of us would classify having “lost” most of our possessions as a big problem. But Luna is serenely putting up signs to recover her things.
Now, Hermione wouldn’t be caught putting up signs if her possessions were taken. Just ask Rita Skeeter and Marietta Edgecombe about crossing Hermione. Hermione is an angel, but she is certainly an avenging angel when necessary. Hermione ferreted (or should that be ottered) out that spying beetle Rita and imprisoned her in a jar. Hermione also jinxed the DA’s parchment and that traitor Marietta is speckled with Purple Pimples that spell out “SNEAK” across Marietta’s guilty face. Luna acts like a dove while Hermione acts like a hawk.
And there is that spiritual side of Luna that I doubt Hermione has.
. . . . “Have you . . .” he began. “I mean, who . . . Has anyone you’ve known ever died?”
. . . . “Yes,” said Luna simply, “my mother. She was a quite extraordinary witch, you know, but she did like to experiment and one of her spells went rather badly wrong one day. I was nine.”
. . . . “I’m sorry,” Harry mumbled.
. . . . “Yes, it was rather horrible,” said Luna conversationally. “I still feel very sad about it sometimes. But I’ve still got Dad. And anyway, it’s not as though I’ll never see Mum again, is it?”
. . . . “Er -- isn’t it?” said Harry uncertainly.
. . . . She shook her head in disbelief. “Oh, come on. You heard them, just behind the veil, didn’t you.?”
. . . . “You mean . . . “
. . . . “In that room with the archway. They were just lurking out of sight, that’s all. You heard them.”
. . . . They looked at each other. Luna was just smiling slightly. Harry did not know what to say, or to think. Luna believed so many extraordinary things . . . Yet he had been sure he had heard voices behind the veil too . . .
(OoP, page 863, American hardback edition)
Luna is most certainly an extraordinary witch. And Hermione is just extraordinary but in other things and in different ways. ;-) GC
PS I really like Hermione. But I wouldn’t dare cross her personally. Hermione is best your friend and hopefully never your enemy. Hermione has grown into an extremely talented and confident young witch. And Hermione is a far cry from that little rejected and crying girl in Book 1 who needed to be rescued from a Mountain Troll by Harry and Ron. ;-) GC
Eric Bailey - Feb 21, 2005 1:47 am (#1386 of 2486)
Well, there's the fact that Luna is Hermione's equal in a lot of ways. She's sort of Hermione's other half, equally smart (Ravenclaw, remember) but intuitive. Hermione focuses on objects, while Luna focuses on the spaces in between. Antosha's essay in the Lexicon described the relationship between the two best...
"Luna is clearly Hermione's mirror. I think Hermione's rationalism, which is such an important part of the trio's dynamic, has it's downside: an unwillingness to leap before looking; a fear of the unknown. We've watched Hermione freeze up in just about every book because her studies haven't provided her with the answer. Usually Ron and Harry have to pull/prod/jolly Hermione past these crises ("Are you a witch or aren't you!"). Freud and Jung would say that the thing you're afraid of is the thing you buried, the thing you secretly want to do. But now we have Luna who is Hermione's physical photo-negative (blonde fluffy hair instead of brown), who is, like Hermione, brainy, if in an entirely different way, and who EMBODIES all of the things Hermione most lacks: intuition and faith. Not big-F Faith, because, thankfully, we haven't gotten a straight sermon in the books yet, and if we do I'll scream. But little-f faith in the possibility of the world operating on laws that transcend the limits of mere physics, chemistry and biology. (This is, after all, a universe where magic works.) I think that Luna's 'fuzziness' gets under Hermione's skin precisely because it is so SCARY to her."
I think they'll get to be pretty close, as, between them, I don't think there's any problem they can't put their heads together and come up with a solution for. Besides, Luna's in a position to get Hermione's SPEW essay published.
Gerald Costales - Feb 21, 2005 8:12 am (#1387 of 2486)
"I think they'll get to be pretty close, as, between them, I don't think there's any problem they can't put their heads together and come up with a solution for. Besides, Luna's in a position to get Hermione's SPEW essay published." Eric Bailey
Eric - Great post.
I believe that SPEW or really the Right of House-Elves to Choice Freedom or Tradition will be important. The traditional needs and hidden reasons for why House-Elves serve Wizards may have probably long vanished.
But, I doubt it will be Hermione who rallies the House-Elves against Voldermort and the Death Eaters in this Second Wizard War. I believe most likely that it will Dumbledore. Why else are there 100 House-Elves at Hogwarts?
Or could it be that the HBP is this Messenger or Savior to the House-Elves? Or is it possibly Dobby?!?! (Yes, I believe Dobby could be the HBP and the Messenger for Freedom of House-Elves!)
House-Elves of the Wizarding World Unite! Cast off your Oppression! ;-) GC
Muggle Doctor - Feb 22, 2005 2:38 pm (#1388 of 2486)
You would have to prove, though, that Dobby was half house-elf, half something else for him to be the "half-blood prince". What's the only thing that's even near house-elf size? Goblin? He doesn't look it, and you'd expect SOME of the Goblin to wash in and change his appearance... Or do house-elves have Muggles too? And I don't even want to THINK about a house-elf/human cross (although Hagrid's parents seem to have managed a similar size difference...)
Choices - Feb 22, 2005 6:44 pm (#1389 of 2486)
Well, now that Dobby is free and "wants payin'", maybe there is a little (no pun intended) goblin in his family tree. LOL
Meanie Mom - Feb 24, 2005 10:06 pm (#1390 of 2486)
I agree with Eric's post about Luna and Hermione. I think they are 2 sides of the same Galleon.
Was it Sherlock Holmes who said "When you have eliminated all the POSSIBLE scenerios, the solution must be the IMPOSSIBLE." I think that is personified by Luna. She seems to relish the impossible and never fears to embrace it and try to get everyone else to accept it also.
JMTK Mary kay
Muggle Doctor - Feb 25, 2005 4:30 am (#1391 of 2486)
Holmes' quote was more exactly: "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains - however improbable - must be the truth."
In real life, however, there is usually more than one likely option. Hermione reflects one of these options, what the Mentats of Frank Herbert's immortal Dune called a "straight line computation." Luna is the other side of the coin, the "second approximation."
For the sake of Hermione's personal development, I would like her to be confronted with a few things:
1) A photograph, or living example, of a crumple-horned Snorkack.
2) A heliopath to battle, with Fudge holding the leash.
3) A house-elf who begged her not to free him.
Gerald Costales - Feb 25, 2005 7:50 pm (#1392 of 2486)
(re: Post#1388)
"And I don't even want to THINK about a house-elf/human cross. . ." Muggle Doctor
A House-Elf/Human cross could account for Peter Pettigrew's child-like stature. Wormtail does have a House-Elf-like need to serve Wizards, first James, Remus, and Lupin and eventually Voldermort. But, I doubt Wormtail is the HBP.
If there are House-Elves could there be or have been Field-Elves? There were House Slaves and Field Slaves weren't there. A servant House-Elf would have been breed for good manners and intelligence. With the exception of Kreacher, both Dobby and Winky seem very intelligent and mild-mannered. A worker Field-Elf would have been breed for hard labor - brute strength, etc. Brute strength and cunning could have been a dangerous mix. And as dangerous breeds are banned and fade from popularity then the Field-Elf breed of Elf could have disappeared.
Could Dobby have the remaining bloodlines of this now non-existent Field-Elf breed? Who knows? Hermione is an ardent advocate for House-Elves. But, I doubt it will be Hermione that will lead the House-Elves to freedom. Thus, my feeling that either Dobby or Dumbledore will lead the House-Elves in the Second Wizard War. ;-) GC
Leif Asgeirsson - Feb 28, 2005 2:48 pm (#1393 of 2486)
Don't you think that something may be revealed in later books about how Hermione seems to always remember things? I am referring to the occasions such as in the fifth book, when Hermione quotes Dumbledore's speech from the year before, and Ron asks her how she can remember that, and she says, "I listen, Ron!"
This seems like the way JKR normally foreshadows things, just slipping it in there...
What do you think?
Meanie Mom - Feb 28, 2005 2:54 pm (#1394 of 2486)
Muggle Doctor, thanks for the correction on Sherlock Holmes quote. I should have said I was paraphrasing (very badly as it turns out).
However, I do see Luna being open to the improbable while Hermione is too hung up on the logical.
Mary Kay
Betelgeuse Black - Feb 28, 2005 3:58 pm (#1395 of 2486)
I wanted to pose a question that I couldn't find an answer for using the search feature. I remember Hermione being asked about the protean charm and why she wasn't in Ravenclaw with brains like hers. I don't remember the exact quote but she said that the sorting hat considered it but settled on Gryffindor in the end.
Why Gryffindor? I think she, like Harry, had the natural disposition to go into another house but she, like Harry, chose to be a Gryffindor. Why? I think she may have felt that she needed to develop the brave and bold qualities and chose to push herself to develop these qualities.
What do the rest of you think?
Betelgeuse
Catherine - Feb 28, 2005 4:05 pm (#1396 of 2486)
I think that the Sorting Hat put Hermione in the House that she asked for. We know from the train ride to Hogwarts in SS that she perceives Gryffindor to be the best House, with Ravenclaw the next best choice.
Hermione may be a near-genius, but even she, as early as SS, discounts her cleverness and learning when telling Harry that he is a great wizard.
She has proven herself a worthy Gryffindor many times over, in my opinion.
Chemyst - Feb 28, 2005 5:22 pm (#1397 of 2486)
- from PS/SS7 - Hermione almost ran to the stool and jammed the hat eagerly on her head.
That does seem overly rambunctious for a house "where those of wit and learning will always find their kind." A true Ravenclaw probably wouldn't wave their hand in the air at every question either. And the Hat itself claims only to sort what is already in a student's mind, not to play god via foreknowledge. So, I agree that the Sorting Hat put Hermione in the House that she asked for. It was her choice.
Muggle Doctor - Feb 28, 2005 6:14 pm (#1398 of 2486)
And on that topic, speaking of choices, what if (a big IF) Harry had walked up to the Sorting hat NOT having met Draco Malfoy and with no prior knowledge of Slytherin's reputation?
Choices - Feb 28, 2005 6:41 pm (#1399 of 2486)
Ohhh, good question Muggle Doc. Harry, having no preconceived notions about any of the houses, would have had to settle for placement by the Sorting Hat. With no input from Harry, there is no telling where it would have put him - Gryffindor or Slytherin. If it had decided on Slytherin, how different these books would have been.
Solitaire - Feb 28, 2005 9:05 pm (#1400 of 2486)
I do see Luna being open to the improbable while Hermione is too hung up on the logical.
Before comparing the girls in this way, Meanie, I think it is important to remember that Luna comes from a Wizarding family, so she has grown up with the improbable as a normal fact of life.
Hermione comes from a Muggle background. Not only that, her parents are dentists, which means they are doctors--people of science. I think it is safe to say that Hermione was probably brought up to value the intellectual over the intuitive. For about a year I lived with a dental assistant. I also worked for a dentist, and I have a friend who is a hygenist. I can tell you from experience and from people who work closely with dentists that they tend to be perfectionists. This is not a flaw; the very nature of dental work demands that it be precise. All it takes is one tiny, infinitesimal thing to be "off," and the patient will be miserable. Perhaps being raised in such an atmosphere accounts for Hermione's high-achiever, perfectionist tendencies.
I believe there is a little insecurity in Hermione, which manifests itself in the way she goes above and beyond everyone else in doing her homework. She wants to prove that she is as good as any Wizarding kid, so maybe she tries too hard. To be honest, after some of the lazy kids I have seen lately on a daily basis, a committed, hard-working overachiever sounds like a nice change!
Solitaire
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The giant squid - Mar 1, 2005 1:25 am (#1401 of 2486)
A true Ravenclaw probably wouldn't wave their hand in the air at every question either.--Chemyst
Y'know, that trait is something that requires its own form of bravery. Even if you know the answer (or think you do), it takes some guts to always raise your hand, even when you know you'll get razzed about it from both your fellow students and some teachers. *cough*Snape*cough*
--Mike
Phoenix song - Mar 1, 2005 7:34 am (#1402 of 2486)
Mike, you're absolutely right! It does take courage for Hermione to constantly answer questions in class although she knows that she's being called an "insufferable know-it-all" for her eagerness. Good point!
Barbie
Mellilot Flower. - Mar 1, 2005 7:59 am (#1403 of 2486)
I think the main reason Hermione would have wanted to be in Gryffindor would have been to cushion her ego. When she'd just arrived in the wizarding world she would have thought that she knew nothing compared to her fellow students, despite reading as much as she could about her new life before leaving for school. She values her intelligence, she likes being the one with all the answers. She perhaps felt that if she was put into Ravenclaw she would have been outshined by those who knew the wizarding world better. I for one can't even picture her in Ravenclaw.
I also have never noticed that Hermione doesn't get on with Luna, or doesn't like her... am I missing something huge here? She argues with Luna, but I argue with all my friends about everything... it makes life fun, and we've seen Hermione argue with Ron...
Now for something else that has been bothering me for some time, that has been adressed previously but...
Hermione, though very clever and seemingly very conscientious and herself a victim of bigoted prejudice can be very superficial about her judgements of other races;
When discussing Firenze with Padma and Lavender in OP, chapter 27, she claims that she never much liked horses, dismissing this new teacher as below her interest. At first I thought that this was perhaps just a throw away line, but quickly looked around for similar comments. Hermione, who avidly reads any book she can and generally remembers very small details from them goes on to completely mis-categorise centaurs as "part-human". In our own version of Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them, centaurs are classed as beasts - having requested not to be put in the same category, "being", as vampires and hags etc. This also seems to show that they wish to distance themselves from the human species and avoid the stigma of being half breeds or somehow sub human. Hermione's flippant remarks seem to suggest a casual disregard for what could be called political correctness, or at least biology (no female centaurs have ever been mentioned, but we might assume from the mention of foals and their severe dislike or mistrust of humans that they breed amongst themselves). She seems almost to be on a par with Umbridge in her bigoted classifications, but simply treats those beneath her with pity, not contempt. My excuse for Hermione here is that she has no respect for divination - even as far back as PS - and all her experiences with centaurs has been seen them living for divining.
Further, when Hermione believes that Lupin had been helping Black to get to Harry in PA she immediately uses the fact that he is a werewolf to back up her statement, despite the fact that she should have known from the statement 'otherwise sane and normal' in FB that a werewolf, when human is no more likely to be evil than any other human. Considering that she was brought up a muggle she seems surprisingly quick to adopt their prejudices. I wouldn't mind so much, nor find this kind of thing so odd if it weren't for Hermione's tendency to swallow books.
Hermione's problem is that she sees the other races in the magical world as less than human - just as Sirius never contemplated Kreacher's feelings nor saw him as an equal. The difference between Hermione and someone like Umbridge, is not the way that they think about those around them, but the way that they act towards them. Hermione, as I said above, pities what she sees as subhuman, especially where house elves are concerned. Problems then become most noticeable when she encounters sentient creatures that do not merit her pity- like centaurs, and when the sentient creatures exhibit non, even anti human traits (by anti, I don't here mean against, but opposite and completely different) like for example with the house elves contentment in slavery to masters they are loyal towards. It is the second case that is most interesting, because Hermione fails to realise that house elves do not need her pity when she should realise that they are both happy and have enough magic to do something if they become too unhappy with their lot.
Solitaire - Mar 1, 2005 8:21 am (#1404 of 2486)
Hermione doesn't dislike Luna. I think she sees her as a bit weird, because, as Harry says, Luna believes such extraordinary things. Perhaps she is from Missouri. You know, "I'm from Missouri ... show me!"
I'll agree that Hermione has serious issues where the House-elves are concerned. But is she any different than the Muggles of our world who go about trying to free people who may not necessarily want to be freed? She is operating out of the information she has always known, without stopping to think it may not apply to magical beings. Yes, she needs to do more complete research, if she is to fully understand the House-elves. More to the point, she needs to talk with and LISTEN TO them. Hopefully, she will see this, as she has learned to see other things, too.
Concerning her remark about Remus being a werewolf, I believe she was terrified. She truly believed Sirius was a murderer after Harry--and probably willing to kill her and Ron, as well. And then she saw that he and Remus were friends. I imagine she felt betrayed and frightened. But she was also willing to listen to the truth ... and she believed it, didn't she?
As for her comment about Firenze and not liking horses, I think she was merely trying to "save face." She quit divination because she felt--like McGonagall and Dumbledore, I must point out--that Sibyll was a bit of a fraud, given to histrionics and melodramatics. Herrmione values logic and common sense, rather like McGonagall. I think Parvati and Lavendar were trying to make her jealous, and she just made that comment without much thought, to try and save face.
I think Hermione is also open-minded enough to admit that maybe she got it wrong, too. At the end of OotP, Ron comments that he bets Dumbledore wishes he could have dumped Trelawney, and that Firenze isn't much better. Hermione asks him, "How can you say that? After we've just found out there are real prophecies?"
Perhaps Hermione is flexible and intelligent enough to change some of her opinions. After all, now that she knows she got the bit about prophecies wrong, she may begin to wonder just what else she might have gotten wrong. I believe Hermione places a high value on truth, and while it may pinch to admit she is wrong, I think she is capable of doing so in her own personal "alchemic journey." **Alchemists, please forgive me.**
Solitaire
edited
librarian314 - Mar 1, 2005 8:52 am (#1405 of 2486)
Hey all!
Hermione's behaviour strikes me as somewhat typical of youngsters who want to help but don't have the maturity and the life experience to understand the nuances. She's still young enough to see things in black and white.
I think that as she ages, and has more life experiences, and is exposed to an even broader spectrum of beings and ideals, she'll change, somewhat. She may still want to free the house elves, but she'll focus on helping those that want it. She'll, hopefully, learn better ways of saying things.
Remember, even though she is the most mature of the trio, she is still only 15 (almost 16) when she and Harry go into the Forbidden Forest with Umbrage and face the centaurs. People say and do things at 15 that they wouldn't when they are twenty, 25, 35, etc. I think we get to see a beginning of the change when Hermione talks to Ron about divination at the end of OotP. Since centaurs seem to base their predictions on something less fuzzy than "interpretation of sign" a la Trelawney, Hermione may well accept their divinations over reading tea leaves and crystal balls.
*michelle the librarian**
Mellilot Flower. - Mar 1, 2005 9:39 am (#1406 of 2486)
I would love to see Hermione's attitude towards centaurs now... the biggest factor of change being her new knowledge about true prophecies. She may be more open to other forms of divination that don't seem so obviously fraudulent and petty, like mars causing burns. I certainly hope so...
Paulus Maximus - Mar 1, 2005 11:32 am (#1407 of 2486)
I've been wondering about Hermione's placement in Gryffindor. She said that the hat had considered her for Ravenclaw, but she didn't want to be in Ravenclaw.
Had Hermione heard bad things about Ravenclaw as Harry had heard bad things about Slytherin?
Catherine - Mar 1, 2005 11:39 am (#1408 of 2486)
I don't remember Hermione ever saying that she did not want to be in Ravenclaw.
In SS, she said that "...but I suppose Ravenclaw wouldn't be too bad..." (p. 106, Scholastic)
In OoP: "Well, the Sorting Hat did seriously consider putting me in Ravenclaw during my Sorting," said Hermione brightly, "but it decided on Gryffindor in the end." (p. 399, OoP, Scholastic)
She doesn't seem to have any dislike or prejudice toward the House.
GryffEndora - Mar 1, 2005 12:23 pm (#1409 of 2486)
Librarian314: Remember, even though she is the most mature of the trio, she is still only 15 (almost 16) when she and Harry go into the Forbidden Forest with Umbrage and face the centaurs.
Sorry to get nit-picky here but one of the reasons Hermione is the most mature of the group is that she is older than the others. Hermione's birthday is in September and she turned 12 shortly into her first term, so by the time she gets in the forest with Harry in OotP she is 16 (almost 17) while Harry is still 15. In any case, your point is still accurate.
Joanne R. Reid - Mar 1, 2005 12:24 pm (#1410 of 2486)
Hi,
I agree with you, Michele, except for one point. Hermione is younger than either Ron or Harry, in spite of what it says in the Lexicon.
1. In an AOL Online Chat Interview, held on October 19, 2000, JKR stated that Hermione's birthday was on the 19th of September.
2. COS DVD #2 Hogwart's Timeline Year Two: "September 19th Hermione's 12th Birthday."
3. JKR did personally review and approve the official timeline in the DVD of CoS.
4. Therefore, it is canon and is clearly acceptable in this forum.
5. That DVD timeline clearly states that Hermione is younger than both Ron and Harry.
6. Ron's birthday was 1 March 1980.
7. Harry's birthday was 31 July 1980
8. Therefore, Hermione's birthday was 19 Sept 1980.
With this in mind, I think your argument is even stronger. Hermione is trying desparately to fit in with people who are older than she. Her greatest strength is her intelligence. Although she reads voraciously, she does not have the life experiences to correlate with her knowledge. I expect that this wisdom, like most things, will come with time. She will have to learn that the elves are happy and that centaurs don't like humans.
At the same time, we can compare her attitude with Hagrid's. Hagrid also seems to think that every creature is cuddly and harmless, regardless of the facts. One would think that by this time, he would have figured it out, but he hasn't.
I hold much greater hope for Hermione, in this regard.
Thanks,
Ladybug220 - Mar 1, 2005 12:35 pm (#1411 of 2486)
Edited by Mar 1, 2005 11:37 am
Actually, JKR stated that Hermione was almost 12 when she started at Hogwarts. It was a question in the HP Lexicon/Mugglenet open letter to JKR.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
When Hermione arrived at Hogwarts, was she nearly eleven or nearly twelve? [also asked by vast numbers of people] She was nearly twelve; you must be at least eleven to attend Hogwarts.
Mellilot Flower. - Mar 1, 2005 2:43 pm (#1412 of 2486)
I wouldn't say that Hagrid is wrong about the creatures he calls cuddly and harmless - it's more that he knows he can make them harmless, train them and find the good in them. He admits defeat when he realises that he is wrong - Norbert, and persevers when he sees that there is hope - Grawp. Hermione seems to be persisting in her Crusade Against Elf Enslavement regardless of what she hears, reads, and encounters.
Choices - Mar 1, 2005 7:23 pm (#1413 of 2486)
Regardless of how old Hermione is, I don't see her as desperately trying to fit in with any group. Ron has led a very sheltered life - he has been in the Wizarding World since birth and being poor, knows little of the world at large. Harry has led a very sheltered life - stuck at the Dursley's and we know they rarely took him with them anywhere. Hermione on the other hand has been raised in the Muggle world by educated, professional, well-to-do people who have taken her on vacations to other countries. We know Hermione reads voraciously. I think she is perhaps a little less knowledgable about the Wizarding World than the other students, but she can probably match them fact for fact because she has read all about it. Also, "there isn't a spell our Hermione can't do", according to Hagrid. I see Hermione as quite self assured and wise beyond her years - definitely the brightest witch of her age according to Lupin. She is certainly more mature and responsible than either Ron or Harry.
Hollywand - Mar 1, 2005 8:13 pm (#1414 of 2486)
Solitaire, I laughed out loud at your mention of Hermione's "alchemical" personal transformation. And, I hope you don't mind that I consider you to be a fellow alchemist!
Regarding Hermy and the House Elves, I think Rowling may be setting us up for a Fred and George moment with the resolution. I expect to be crying with laughter, all these little drunken house elves in ill-fitting hats and socks, delivering blows and slugs to the Death Eaters in inconvenient locations! Hermione may wonder what she's got herself into with the elves.
Solitaire - Mar 1, 2005 11:26 pm (#1415 of 2486)
Holly, thank you for the compliment. I still think I may be about as hopeless as an alchemist as Neville is in Snape's potions class. But as I was considering the transformation of Hermione throughout the books thus far--and I do believe she has undergone personal transformation--I thought about things I've read on the alchemy thread ... and they seemed to fit here.
Solitaire
Muggle Doctor - Mar 2, 2005 7:31 pm (#1416 of 2486)
Solitaire, you said:
Before comparing the girls in this way, Meanie, I think it is important to remember that Luna comes from a Wizarding family, so she has grown up with the improbable as a normal fact of life.
This may be true with respect to Hermione, but remember that to a wizard, pots that scrub themselves in sinks and jumpers that knit themselves are just part of the picture; hence to them, not "improbable". However, it is also a fact that Luna and her father believe a lot of things that the general run of wizarding folk do not (e.g. Crumple-Horned Snorkacks, Fudge's army of heliopaths). The comparison wouldn't change even if Hermione was wizard-born.
Even if Hermione were from a long line of pureblood wizards, I think she would hardly be the sort to subscribe to the Quibbler, even if she realises that the Daily Prophet doesn't always produce the noblest examples of journalism. Well, not originally, anyway; now that the war is on, and even with Voldemort 'outed' and the cover-up over, she might want access to an alternative media organ. The fact that she is friends (not to mention comrade in arms) with the editor's daughter doesn't hurt the DA/OotP cause either.
Leif Asgeirsson - Mar 4, 2005 2:54 pm (#1417 of 2486)
There may be other alternative media sources, though, besides the quibbler and witch weekly, you never know.
Steve Newton - Mar 4, 2005 10:18 pm (#1418 of 2486)
So far the only other publications that I know of are Witch Weekly, in GOF, I think, and Transformation Today (maybe POA). There is also a mention of the Evening Prophet. Probably a late edition of the Daily Prophet.
OliveHornby - Mar 5, 2005 6:15 am (#1419 of 2486)
Leif mentioned media sources. There is the WWN, but Muggle-borns like Hermione probably wouldn't have access to it on school holidays.
I think Hermione has already shown a preference or need to stay near her friends during holidays, and may be reluctant to stay in the Muggle world during holidays, especially now that the second war has begun.
Potions Mistress - Mar 5, 2005 10:34 am (#1420 of 2486)
Especially since staying with her parents might put them in danger.
~pm
Solitaire - Mar 5, 2005 10:47 am (#1421 of 2486)
Then again, she might also feel that they would be defenseless--easy prey for someone who wishes to hurt her--if they are left alone, without magical protection. Perhaps they will be asked to come and stay among the Wizards, where they might be safer, until the War is over.
Solitaire
Catherine - Mar 5, 2005 10:57 am (#1422 of 2486)
That makes logical sense, Solitaire. The main reason I think it more unlikely than not is that JKR has indicated that Hermione's parents "boring." For that reason, I don't see JKR writing them into the wizarding world in a significant way.
Tomoé - Mar 5, 2005 11:39 am (#1423 of 2486)
Maybe Dumbledore will write them letters and do the same he did with the Evanses (if he ever did something).
Solitaire - Mar 5, 2005 11:59 am (#1424 of 2486)
Tomoé makes sense. I'm sure that the families of Muggle-born Wizards will have to be informed of the state of things at this point ... and of the danger in which they may find themselves because of their Wizarding children. Precautions will need to be taken.
As for Hermione's boring parents, it may be as you say, Catherine. It does seem, however, that Hermione may be more concerned for their welfare and safety, now that her world is at war. Even though she has begun to separate from them, indications are that they love their daughter and are proud of her--and that she loves them. They do not seem like the dysfunctional Dursleys, who couldn't give a rat's patoot about Harry. And I suspect that, as little feeling as Harry surely has for any of them, he would intervene (as he did with Dudley) if their lives--even mean old Uncle Vernon's--were in danger. It's part of his nature. Since Hermione actually does love her family, she would certainly go to their defense, if they needed her.
Solitaire
Tomoé - Mar 5, 2005 12:26 pm (#1425 of 2486)
I believe Dumbledore took special mesure regarding the Evans because their daughter was a member of the Order. While Hermione is not a member herself, she's definitely the closer thing Harry have from a family now (along with the Weasley) and Harry being number 1 on Voldemort's to kill list, Hermione and her family should be near the top as well.
Leif Asgeirsson - Mar 6, 2005 7:48 pm (#1426 of 2486)
Well, we aren't completely sure that Voldemort knows that Ron and Hermione are Harry's best friends, although he knows Harry quite well. Tom Riddle's memory knew because of Ginny, but of course, thanks to Harry, that memory no longer exists. There is, however the possibility that Kreacher told Voldemort/Malfoy about Harry's friends, but unfortunately all we know is that the elf told him that Harry would do anything for Sirius.
Choices - Mar 6, 2005 8:16 pm (#1427 of 2486)
Ginny told Tom Riddle all about Harry in the diary, but I don't remember her telling Tom about Ron and Hermione. I'll have to go back and check - maybe I missed that part.
Muggle Doctor - Mar 6, 2005 10:26 pm (#1428 of 2486)
I think it would only be common sense to conclude that what Voldemort has not found out (about Ron/Hermione) from Harry or Ginny's mind, he has found out from Draco Malfoy's mouth (through Lucius: I think Draco is beneath his notice).
Some things, at least, can be assumed without JKR having to spell them out in full. That Draco has passed on all he knows or has guessed about HRH must be one of those things. The DE (through Narcissa) certainly got enough out of Kreacher to pick Harry's weak spot re. Sirius; who knows what else they got?
Solitaire - Mar 6, 2005 10:31 pm (#1429 of 2486)
In order for us to have known everything Ginny told Tom, we would have had to have constant access to their interchanges in CoS, and we did not. We only know the things Voldemort and/or Ginny chose to reveal. There are many things she could have told him that were not pertinent at that time--things which we may never know unless/until they become pertinent and are revealed in future books.
If Voldemort was able to have access to Harry's thoughts from a "reading" perspective, however--and we don't know that he was; we only know for certain that he was able to insert thoughts and images into Harry's mind--I'm sure he knew not only about Sirius but about other people and things that are important to Harry.
Solitaire
edit: Muggle Doc has a point about Draco being able to pass on that kind of info about Harry's friends. More to the point, the DEs who were in the Ministry that night will certainly know who Harry's closest friends are now. So will Voldemort, if he was paying attention.
Ydnam96 - Mar 6, 2005 10:33 pm (#1430 of 2486)
Muggle Dr. I think you are correct. There are plenty of people in the WW who have seen that Harry's good friends are Hermione and Ron. Not only the students and staff at the school (including fake Moody) but people around Diagon Alley and Hogsmeade have also seen them. Rita wrote about them in the paper. I think it is common knowledge by now.
I would hope, and I'm pretty sure, that DD has taken precautions to keep all of his students safe.
Mellilot Flower. - Mar 7, 2005 2:44 am (#1431 of 2486)
I was always under the impression that muggle killings were for the most part sport back in VW1, I'd have thought that Hermione being just an addition to Harry wouldn't warrent much attention yet- she's only a child, she's completely muggle born. If anything she might be someone to use to get to Harry, but why would he need to get to her? I can't see that the Dark Lord would see it neccessary to kill Hermione's parents,or worth his time.
librarian314 - Mar 7, 2005 8:08 am (#1432 of 2486)
Hey all!
This is one of those instances in which I wish we knew exactly what happened to Harry's grandparents, especially the Evanses. I'm of the opinion that both sets were killed as a way to get to Lily and James during the first war. They may even be parts of the "thrice defying" mentioned in the prophecy.
If Harry's grandparents were killed to get at Lily and James, I think Hermione's parents are fair game. Putting Hermione's parents in danger, puts Hermione in danger, since if she found out about it, she would try and rescue them. If they were killed before she could save them, she may well want revenge. If the Death Eaters were lucky, they could get rid of one of Harry's closest friends and supporters. If they were unfortunately lucky, they could get Harry and who knows who else (Ginny, Ron, etc.).
If I were Hermione, I'd be very worried and try and urge Mum and Dad Granger to oh, say, relocate to Australia or Canada or somewhere else very far away from Britain and Europe until Voldemort is vanquished.
Dean Thomas' parents may also be at risk, since his biological father was killed by the DEs during the first war.
Y'all take care!
*michelle the librarian**
Solitaire - Mar 7, 2005 8:09 am (#1433 of 2486)
The murder of Hermione's parents would certainly devastate her ... and it would definitely get to Harry. Learning the circumstances of his own parents' murder has been a devastating thing for Harry. Would he stand idly by and do nothing if Hermione's own parents were in danger? I don't think so.
As to Hermione herself becoming a target, she was smart enough and powerful enough to stop Dolohov from killing her, and she didn't even have to kill him to do it. I'd say she has catapulted herself onto the DE radar as someone worth watching in her own right and not just as Harry's dear friend.
Solitaire
TomProffitt - Mar 7, 2005 11:08 am (#1434 of 2486)
Recall that the only surviving Evans is Petunia. Whatever steps were taken by Dumbledore to protect Lily's family were inadequate. We can hope that more concrete steps are taken to protect the Grangers.
Of course the Evans family could have been lost through non-Death Eater activity, but I have my doubts.
Phoenix song - Mar 7, 2005 11:47 am (#1435 of 2486)
I agree that Hermione has unwittingly placed a "bull's eye" right across her parents chest. I hope that Dumbledore will do a good job protecting them.
It would seem logical that Lily and Pet's parents would have fallen at the hands of the DEs. But there are a few things that might indicate that they died "ordinary" deaths. I would think that Pet would have vented to Harry by now if his "abnormality" had ultimately led to her parents' deaths. We also know from JKR's interviews that both sets of Harry's grandparents are dead, but that their stories aren't particularly important to the story line. I would think that if they had all been murdered by the DEs that they would be more integral. That's just my thoughts, of course.
Barbie
Solitaire - Mar 7, 2005 11:51 am (#1436 of 2486)
If we do not yet know that Lily's parents died at the hands of Voldemort or DEs, we can't really say whether the precautions were adequate or not. Jo has said that Harry's grandparents aren't really important to the plot, and I tend to feel that if they were killed as a result of LV/DE activity, that would be very important. JM2K, however ...
Solitaire
edit: Phoenix beat me to it!
Phoenix song - Mar 7, 2005 11:53 am (#1437 of 2486)
Solitaire...Great minds think alike!
Barbie
Prefect Marcus - Mar 7, 2005 1:47 pm (#1438 of 2486)
Edited by Mar 7, 2005 12:48 pm
I doubt Hermione's parents are any more vulnerable than any other muggle couple.
Voldemort cannot afford to be petty. He has limited resources. He lost a good chunk of them in the battle of the DoM. Why risk what he has left to off a harmless muggle couple that the MoM may be protecting?
If he does, then the MoM has his number. Just set up a protective ring around Harry's friends and relatives or use them as bait.
The same thing goes for raiding Azkaban prison to free the captured DeathEaters. Would Voldemort risk his remaining resources to spring a bunch of proven losers? 12 of them couldn't even overpower a handful of fourth and fifth years that they got the drop on.
The MoM is going to have Azkaban extremely well protected. He would likely lose more than he gained.
Leif Asgeirsson - Mar 7, 2005 4:30 pm (#1439 of 2486)
"I think it would only be common sense to conclude that what Voldemort has not found out (about Ron/Hermione) from Harry or Ginny's mind, he has found out from Draco Malfoy's mouth (through Lucius: I think Draco is beneath his notice)." (Muggle Doctor)
Thanks - I overlooked Draco's connections with Voldemort, and now it certainly seems that he would know about Harry's friends, especially as we can assume that he tries to get as much information as possible about Harry.
The giant squid - Mar 8, 2005 1:55 am (#1440 of 2486)
Would Voldemort risk his remaining resources to spring a bunch of proven losers? 12 of them couldn't even overpower a handful of fourth and fifth years that they got the drop on.--Prefect Marcus
You know, we've joked about this before, but you really have to think about it--a dozen adult, trained and (presumably) powerful wizards were shut down by a group only half as big. That alone would be horribly embarrasing, but add in the fact that the 6 in question were kids, semi-trained, and at least one is considered to be "slow" as far as magical ability is concerned, and it's hard to come up with a good reason for LV to want to spring them. They're failures of the worst order.
I'd continue, but this is Hermione's thread & I can't think of a good way to bring it back around to her...
--Mike
Mellilot Flower. - Mar 8, 2005 4:36 am (#1441 of 2486)
I agree that Voldemort will probably not focus any attention on muggles, or the muggle relatives of Harry's family- it seems a waste. But then again, could you imagine the effect this would have on the wizarding world and the muggle world? I'm pretty sure that JKR has said at some point that the two worlds are never reconcilled - but that explosion of Peters caused such fear! Without the time now to gradually build up the fear of his last rise to power, I think the Dark Lord will maybe want to cause a bit of a stir. Attacking a lot of muggles for no reason would be a brillian, unexpected way of doing so. It would express the anti-muggle feelings that the Dark Lord wishes to project, it would express power, and whatsmore would get Harry and that Muggle loving fool where it hurts and it would say quite clearly "I'm back and I'm not defeated. I remain defiant and strong" It would create such chaos that acheiving any other aims he might have would be easily achievable.
But then, would JKR take such a huge lead from current events? Or would she fear alienating people if she expressed her views about a war on terror through the books (and surely this couldn't have been planned as the books have been in the works for so long).
I hope this is still on topic- it is still about Hermione's parents in a way. Afterall, for maximum effect the Dark Lord might target familles that Harry knows, or that members of the order know and really on. Though I expect no more deaths except for those of one of the extended trio, the Weasleys (most specifically Molly) or Dumbledore will have such a huge effect as Sirius' did, so I'm not sure there'd be a point...
Joanne R. Reid - Mar 8, 2005 7:21 am (#1442 of 2486)
Hi,
I'm also thinking of Rita Skeeter's articles about Harry during the Tri-Wizard Tournament. Rita wrote about Hermione's relationship with Victor, portraying it as a betrayal of Harry. So, Hermione's relationship with Harry is well-known. If so, then the Granger's could very well be in trouble.
However, if they are attacked, Hermione would go ballistic! I think of her single-minded determination to avenge herself against Rita. Can you imagine what she'd do if her parents were attacked? The mind boggles! :-O
Thanks,
Solitaire - Mar 8, 2005 8:12 am (#1443 of 2486)
Isn't it odd ... I immediately think of Draco as the one who would take on the job of persecuting--if not actually killing--Hermione's parents. Why does my mind immediately fly to him when there are so many possibilities?
Solitaire
pottermom34 - Mar 8, 2005 8:20 am (#1444 of 2486)
Probably because he's always saying something about getting that filthy mudblood.and he's a git
wwtMask - Mar 8, 2005 10:55 am (#1445 of 2486)
And because, as a known bully, it would not be beneath him to use his magic against Muggles. That boy has "future Death Eater" written all over him.
Speaking of the little ferret, there's been speculation that Draco is now Ron's primary enemy. However, wouldn't it be fun to see Hermione be his opposition? I can just imagine how funny he'd look after getting hit with NEWT or higher level hexes. Unfortunately, I don't think Hermione cares to waste her valuable time on him.
Weeny Owl - Mar 8, 2005 2:57 pm (#1446 of 2486)
JKR could mention the Grangers without needing to use a lot of words. She could just have Hermione say that the Order has talked with her parents and added some protections to their home and business. The Order could also talk to the parents of other Muggle-born students such as the Creeveys.
Solitaire - Mar 8, 2005 8:02 pm (#1447 of 2486)
Mask, I moved part of your comment over on the Draco thread to discuss there. I hope you don't mind!
Solitaire
wwtMask - Mar 9, 2005 8:26 am (#1448 of 2486)
Not at all. I dare say that it'll work better over in Draco's thread than over here. Looking at the way Hermione has dealt with Draco for the last 2 books, I don't think she'll give him the time of day.
Leif Asgeirsson - Mar 11, 2005 4:40 pm (#1449 of 2486)
How would The Order manage to protect the families of all the muggle-born students? This would be a large operation, especially since the order is so small right now.
Steve Newton - Mar 11, 2005 7:08 pm (#1450 of 2486)
Well, I would guess that the only way to protect them would be to gather up all of the DEs and Voldemort. Having people hanging around as bodyguards just gets everybody hurt, it bing unlikely that one bodyguard could handle the 3 or 4 DEs that would be likely to show up.
A true Ravenclaw probably wouldn't wave their hand in the air at every question either.--Chemyst
Y'know, that trait is something that requires its own form of bravery. Even if you know the answer (or think you do), it takes some guts to always raise your hand, even when you know you'll get razzed about it from both your fellow students and some teachers. *cough*Snape*cough*
--Mike
Phoenix song - Mar 1, 2005 7:34 am (#1402 of 2486)
Mike, you're absolutely right! It does take courage for Hermione to constantly answer questions in class although she knows that she's being called an "insufferable know-it-all" for her eagerness. Good point!
Barbie
Mellilot Flower. - Mar 1, 2005 7:59 am (#1403 of 2486)
I think the main reason Hermione would have wanted to be in Gryffindor would have been to cushion her ego. When she'd just arrived in the wizarding world she would have thought that she knew nothing compared to her fellow students, despite reading as much as she could about her new life before leaving for school. She values her intelligence, she likes being the one with all the answers. She perhaps felt that if she was put into Ravenclaw she would have been outshined by those who knew the wizarding world better. I for one can't even picture her in Ravenclaw.
I also have never noticed that Hermione doesn't get on with Luna, or doesn't like her... am I missing something huge here? She argues with Luna, but I argue with all my friends about everything... it makes life fun, and we've seen Hermione argue with Ron...
Now for something else that has been bothering me for some time, that has been adressed previously but...
Hermione, though very clever and seemingly very conscientious and herself a victim of bigoted prejudice can be very superficial about her judgements of other races;
When discussing Firenze with Padma and Lavender in OP, chapter 27, she claims that she never much liked horses, dismissing this new teacher as below her interest. At first I thought that this was perhaps just a throw away line, but quickly looked around for similar comments. Hermione, who avidly reads any book she can and generally remembers very small details from them goes on to completely mis-categorise centaurs as "part-human". In our own version of Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them, centaurs are classed as beasts - having requested not to be put in the same category, "being", as vampires and hags etc. This also seems to show that they wish to distance themselves from the human species and avoid the stigma of being half breeds or somehow sub human. Hermione's flippant remarks seem to suggest a casual disregard for what could be called political correctness, or at least biology (no female centaurs have ever been mentioned, but we might assume from the mention of foals and their severe dislike or mistrust of humans that they breed amongst themselves). She seems almost to be on a par with Umbridge in her bigoted classifications, but simply treats those beneath her with pity, not contempt. My excuse for Hermione here is that she has no respect for divination - even as far back as PS - and all her experiences with centaurs has been seen them living for divining.
Further, when Hermione believes that Lupin had been helping Black to get to Harry in PA she immediately uses the fact that he is a werewolf to back up her statement, despite the fact that she should have known from the statement 'otherwise sane and normal' in FB that a werewolf, when human is no more likely to be evil than any other human. Considering that she was brought up a muggle she seems surprisingly quick to adopt their prejudices. I wouldn't mind so much, nor find this kind of thing so odd if it weren't for Hermione's tendency to swallow books.
Hermione's problem is that she sees the other races in the magical world as less than human - just as Sirius never contemplated Kreacher's feelings nor saw him as an equal. The difference between Hermione and someone like Umbridge, is not the way that they think about those around them, but the way that they act towards them. Hermione, as I said above, pities what she sees as subhuman, especially where house elves are concerned. Problems then become most noticeable when she encounters sentient creatures that do not merit her pity- like centaurs, and when the sentient creatures exhibit non, even anti human traits (by anti, I don't here mean against, but opposite and completely different) like for example with the house elves contentment in slavery to masters they are loyal towards. It is the second case that is most interesting, because Hermione fails to realise that house elves do not need her pity when she should realise that they are both happy and have enough magic to do something if they become too unhappy with their lot.
Solitaire - Mar 1, 2005 8:21 am (#1404 of 2486)
Hermione doesn't dislike Luna. I think she sees her as a bit weird, because, as Harry says, Luna believes such extraordinary things. Perhaps she is from Missouri. You know, "I'm from Missouri ... show me!"
I'll agree that Hermione has serious issues where the House-elves are concerned. But is she any different than the Muggles of our world who go about trying to free people who may not necessarily want to be freed? She is operating out of the information she has always known, without stopping to think it may not apply to magical beings. Yes, she needs to do more complete research, if she is to fully understand the House-elves. More to the point, she needs to talk with and LISTEN TO them. Hopefully, she will see this, as she has learned to see other things, too.
Concerning her remark about Remus being a werewolf, I believe she was terrified. She truly believed Sirius was a murderer after Harry--and probably willing to kill her and Ron, as well. And then she saw that he and Remus were friends. I imagine she felt betrayed and frightened. But she was also willing to listen to the truth ... and she believed it, didn't she?
As for her comment about Firenze and not liking horses, I think she was merely trying to "save face." She quit divination because she felt--like McGonagall and Dumbledore, I must point out--that Sibyll was a bit of a fraud, given to histrionics and melodramatics. Herrmione values logic and common sense, rather like McGonagall. I think Parvati and Lavendar were trying to make her jealous, and she just made that comment without much thought, to try and save face.
I think Hermione is also open-minded enough to admit that maybe she got it wrong, too. At the end of OotP, Ron comments that he bets Dumbledore wishes he could have dumped Trelawney, and that Firenze isn't much better. Hermione asks him, "How can you say that? After we've just found out there are real prophecies?"
Perhaps Hermione is flexible and intelligent enough to change some of her opinions. After all, now that she knows she got the bit about prophecies wrong, she may begin to wonder just what else she might have gotten wrong. I believe Hermione places a high value on truth, and while it may pinch to admit she is wrong, I think she is capable of doing so in her own personal "alchemic journey." **Alchemists, please forgive me.**
Solitaire
edited
librarian314 - Mar 1, 2005 8:52 am (#1405 of 2486)
Hey all!
Hermione's behaviour strikes me as somewhat typical of youngsters who want to help but don't have the maturity and the life experience to understand the nuances. She's still young enough to see things in black and white.
I think that as she ages, and has more life experiences, and is exposed to an even broader spectrum of beings and ideals, she'll change, somewhat. She may still want to free the house elves, but she'll focus on helping those that want it. She'll, hopefully, learn better ways of saying things.
Remember, even though she is the most mature of the trio, she is still only 15 (almost 16) when she and Harry go into the Forbidden Forest with Umbrage and face the centaurs. People say and do things at 15 that they wouldn't when they are twenty, 25, 35, etc. I think we get to see a beginning of the change when Hermione talks to Ron about divination at the end of OotP. Since centaurs seem to base their predictions on something less fuzzy than "interpretation of sign" a la Trelawney, Hermione may well accept their divinations over reading tea leaves and crystal balls.
*michelle the librarian**
Mellilot Flower. - Mar 1, 2005 9:39 am (#1406 of 2486)
I would love to see Hermione's attitude towards centaurs now... the biggest factor of change being her new knowledge about true prophecies. She may be more open to other forms of divination that don't seem so obviously fraudulent and petty, like mars causing burns. I certainly hope so...
Paulus Maximus - Mar 1, 2005 11:32 am (#1407 of 2486)
I've been wondering about Hermione's placement in Gryffindor. She said that the hat had considered her for Ravenclaw, but she didn't want to be in Ravenclaw.
Had Hermione heard bad things about Ravenclaw as Harry had heard bad things about Slytherin?
Catherine - Mar 1, 2005 11:39 am (#1408 of 2486)
I don't remember Hermione ever saying that she did not want to be in Ravenclaw.
In SS, she said that "...but I suppose Ravenclaw wouldn't be too bad..." (p. 106, Scholastic)
In OoP: "Well, the Sorting Hat did seriously consider putting me in Ravenclaw during my Sorting," said Hermione brightly, "but it decided on Gryffindor in the end." (p. 399, OoP, Scholastic)
She doesn't seem to have any dislike or prejudice toward the House.
GryffEndora - Mar 1, 2005 12:23 pm (#1409 of 2486)
Librarian314: Remember, even though she is the most mature of the trio, she is still only 15 (almost 16) when she and Harry go into the Forbidden Forest with Umbrage and face the centaurs.
Sorry to get nit-picky here but one of the reasons Hermione is the most mature of the group is that she is older than the others. Hermione's birthday is in September and she turned 12 shortly into her first term, so by the time she gets in the forest with Harry in OotP she is 16 (almost 17) while Harry is still 15. In any case, your point is still accurate.
Joanne R. Reid - Mar 1, 2005 12:24 pm (#1410 of 2486)
Hi,
I agree with you, Michele, except for one point. Hermione is younger than either Ron or Harry, in spite of what it says in the Lexicon.
1. In an AOL Online Chat Interview, held on October 19, 2000, JKR stated that Hermione's birthday was on the 19th of September.
2. COS DVD #2 Hogwart's Timeline Year Two: "September 19th Hermione's 12th Birthday."
3. JKR did personally review and approve the official timeline in the DVD of CoS.
4. Therefore, it is canon and is clearly acceptable in this forum.
5. That DVD timeline clearly states that Hermione is younger than both Ron and Harry.
6. Ron's birthday was 1 March 1980.
7. Harry's birthday was 31 July 1980
8. Therefore, Hermione's birthday was 19 Sept 1980.
With this in mind, I think your argument is even stronger. Hermione is trying desparately to fit in with people who are older than she. Her greatest strength is her intelligence. Although she reads voraciously, she does not have the life experiences to correlate with her knowledge. I expect that this wisdom, like most things, will come with time. She will have to learn that the elves are happy and that centaurs don't like humans.
At the same time, we can compare her attitude with Hagrid's. Hagrid also seems to think that every creature is cuddly and harmless, regardless of the facts. One would think that by this time, he would have figured it out, but he hasn't.
I hold much greater hope for Hermione, in this regard.
Thanks,
Ladybug220 - Mar 1, 2005 12:35 pm (#1411 of 2486)
Edited by Mar 1, 2005 11:37 am
Actually, JKR stated that Hermione was almost 12 when she started at Hogwarts. It was a question in the HP Lexicon/Mugglenet open letter to JKR.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
When Hermione arrived at Hogwarts, was she nearly eleven or nearly twelve? [also asked by vast numbers of people] She was nearly twelve; you must be at least eleven to attend Hogwarts.
Mellilot Flower. - Mar 1, 2005 2:43 pm (#1412 of 2486)
I wouldn't say that Hagrid is wrong about the creatures he calls cuddly and harmless - it's more that he knows he can make them harmless, train them and find the good in them. He admits defeat when he realises that he is wrong - Norbert, and persevers when he sees that there is hope - Grawp. Hermione seems to be persisting in her Crusade Against Elf Enslavement regardless of what she hears, reads, and encounters.
Choices - Mar 1, 2005 7:23 pm (#1413 of 2486)
Regardless of how old Hermione is, I don't see her as desperately trying to fit in with any group. Ron has led a very sheltered life - he has been in the Wizarding World since birth and being poor, knows little of the world at large. Harry has led a very sheltered life - stuck at the Dursley's and we know they rarely took him with them anywhere. Hermione on the other hand has been raised in the Muggle world by educated, professional, well-to-do people who have taken her on vacations to other countries. We know Hermione reads voraciously. I think she is perhaps a little less knowledgable about the Wizarding World than the other students, but she can probably match them fact for fact because she has read all about it. Also, "there isn't a spell our Hermione can't do", according to Hagrid. I see Hermione as quite self assured and wise beyond her years - definitely the brightest witch of her age according to Lupin. She is certainly more mature and responsible than either Ron or Harry.
Hollywand - Mar 1, 2005 8:13 pm (#1414 of 2486)
Solitaire, I laughed out loud at your mention of Hermione's "alchemical" personal transformation. And, I hope you don't mind that I consider you to be a fellow alchemist!
Regarding Hermy and the House Elves, I think Rowling may be setting us up for a Fred and George moment with the resolution. I expect to be crying with laughter, all these little drunken house elves in ill-fitting hats and socks, delivering blows and slugs to the Death Eaters in inconvenient locations! Hermione may wonder what she's got herself into with the elves.
Solitaire - Mar 1, 2005 11:26 pm (#1415 of 2486)
Holly, thank you for the compliment. I still think I may be about as hopeless as an alchemist as Neville is in Snape's potions class. But as I was considering the transformation of Hermione throughout the books thus far--and I do believe she has undergone personal transformation--I thought about things I've read on the alchemy thread ... and they seemed to fit here.
Solitaire
Muggle Doctor - Mar 2, 2005 7:31 pm (#1416 of 2486)
Solitaire, you said:
Before comparing the girls in this way, Meanie, I think it is important to remember that Luna comes from a Wizarding family, so she has grown up with the improbable as a normal fact of life.
This may be true with respect to Hermione, but remember that to a wizard, pots that scrub themselves in sinks and jumpers that knit themselves are just part of the picture; hence to them, not "improbable". However, it is also a fact that Luna and her father believe a lot of things that the general run of wizarding folk do not (e.g. Crumple-Horned Snorkacks, Fudge's army of heliopaths). The comparison wouldn't change even if Hermione was wizard-born.
Even if Hermione were from a long line of pureblood wizards, I think she would hardly be the sort to subscribe to the Quibbler, even if she realises that the Daily Prophet doesn't always produce the noblest examples of journalism. Well, not originally, anyway; now that the war is on, and even with Voldemort 'outed' and the cover-up over, she might want access to an alternative media organ. The fact that she is friends (not to mention comrade in arms) with the editor's daughter doesn't hurt the DA/OotP cause either.
Leif Asgeirsson - Mar 4, 2005 2:54 pm (#1417 of 2486)
There may be other alternative media sources, though, besides the quibbler and witch weekly, you never know.
Steve Newton - Mar 4, 2005 10:18 pm (#1418 of 2486)
So far the only other publications that I know of are Witch Weekly, in GOF, I think, and Transformation Today (maybe POA). There is also a mention of the Evening Prophet. Probably a late edition of the Daily Prophet.
OliveHornby - Mar 5, 2005 6:15 am (#1419 of 2486)
Leif mentioned media sources. There is the WWN, but Muggle-borns like Hermione probably wouldn't have access to it on school holidays.
I think Hermione has already shown a preference or need to stay near her friends during holidays, and may be reluctant to stay in the Muggle world during holidays, especially now that the second war has begun.
Potions Mistress - Mar 5, 2005 10:34 am (#1420 of 2486)
Especially since staying with her parents might put them in danger.
~pm
Solitaire - Mar 5, 2005 10:47 am (#1421 of 2486)
Then again, she might also feel that they would be defenseless--easy prey for someone who wishes to hurt her--if they are left alone, without magical protection. Perhaps they will be asked to come and stay among the Wizards, where they might be safer, until the War is over.
Solitaire
Catherine - Mar 5, 2005 10:57 am (#1422 of 2486)
That makes logical sense, Solitaire. The main reason I think it more unlikely than not is that JKR has indicated that Hermione's parents "boring." For that reason, I don't see JKR writing them into the wizarding world in a significant way.
Tomoé - Mar 5, 2005 11:39 am (#1423 of 2486)
Maybe Dumbledore will write them letters and do the same he did with the Evanses (if he ever did something).
Solitaire - Mar 5, 2005 11:59 am (#1424 of 2486)
Tomoé makes sense. I'm sure that the families of Muggle-born Wizards will have to be informed of the state of things at this point ... and of the danger in which they may find themselves because of their Wizarding children. Precautions will need to be taken.
As for Hermione's boring parents, it may be as you say, Catherine. It does seem, however, that Hermione may be more concerned for their welfare and safety, now that her world is at war. Even though she has begun to separate from them, indications are that they love their daughter and are proud of her--and that she loves them. They do not seem like the dysfunctional Dursleys, who couldn't give a rat's patoot about Harry. And I suspect that, as little feeling as Harry surely has for any of them, he would intervene (as he did with Dudley) if their lives--even mean old Uncle Vernon's--were in danger. It's part of his nature. Since Hermione actually does love her family, she would certainly go to their defense, if they needed her.
Solitaire
Tomoé - Mar 5, 2005 12:26 pm (#1425 of 2486)
I believe Dumbledore took special mesure regarding the Evans because their daughter was a member of the Order. While Hermione is not a member herself, she's definitely the closer thing Harry have from a family now (along with the Weasley) and Harry being number 1 on Voldemort's to kill list, Hermione and her family should be near the top as well.
Leif Asgeirsson - Mar 6, 2005 7:48 pm (#1426 of 2486)
Well, we aren't completely sure that Voldemort knows that Ron and Hermione are Harry's best friends, although he knows Harry quite well. Tom Riddle's memory knew because of Ginny, but of course, thanks to Harry, that memory no longer exists. There is, however the possibility that Kreacher told Voldemort/Malfoy about Harry's friends, but unfortunately all we know is that the elf told him that Harry would do anything for Sirius.
Choices - Mar 6, 2005 8:16 pm (#1427 of 2486)
Ginny told Tom Riddle all about Harry in the diary, but I don't remember her telling Tom about Ron and Hermione. I'll have to go back and check - maybe I missed that part.
Muggle Doctor - Mar 6, 2005 10:26 pm (#1428 of 2486)
I think it would only be common sense to conclude that what Voldemort has not found out (about Ron/Hermione) from Harry or Ginny's mind, he has found out from Draco Malfoy's mouth (through Lucius: I think Draco is beneath his notice).
Some things, at least, can be assumed without JKR having to spell them out in full. That Draco has passed on all he knows or has guessed about HRH must be one of those things. The DE (through Narcissa) certainly got enough out of Kreacher to pick Harry's weak spot re. Sirius; who knows what else they got?
Solitaire - Mar 6, 2005 10:31 pm (#1429 of 2486)
In order for us to have known everything Ginny told Tom, we would have had to have constant access to their interchanges in CoS, and we did not. We only know the things Voldemort and/or Ginny chose to reveal. There are many things she could have told him that were not pertinent at that time--things which we may never know unless/until they become pertinent and are revealed in future books.
If Voldemort was able to have access to Harry's thoughts from a "reading" perspective, however--and we don't know that he was; we only know for certain that he was able to insert thoughts and images into Harry's mind--I'm sure he knew not only about Sirius but about other people and things that are important to Harry.
Solitaire
edit: Muggle Doc has a point about Draco being able to pass on that kind of info about Harry's friends. More to the point, the DEs who were in the Ministry that night will certainly know who Harry's closest friends are now. So will Voldemort, if he was paying attention.
Ydnam96 - Mar 6, 2005 10:33 pm (#1430 of 2486)
Muggle Dr. I think you are correct. There are plenty of people in the WW who have seen that Harry's good friends are Hermione and Ron. Not only the students and staff at the school (including fake Moody) but people around Diagon Alley and Hogsmeade have also seen them. Rita wrote about them in the paper. I think it is common knowledge by now.
I would hope, and I'm pretty sure, that DD has taken precautions to keep all of his students safe.
Mellilot Flower. - Mar 7, 2005 2:44 am (#1431 of 2486)
I was always under the impression that muggle killings were for the most part sport back in VW1, I'd have thought that Hermione being just an addition to Harry wouldn't warrent much attention yet- she's only a child, she's completely muggle born. If anything she might be someone to use to get to Harry, but why would he need to get to her? I can't see that the Dark Lord would see it neccessary to kill Hermione's parents,or worth his time.
librarian314 - Mar 7, 2005 8:08 am (#1432 of 2486)
Hey all!
This is one of those instances in which I wish we knew exactly what happened to Harry's grandparents, especially the Evanses. I'm of the opinion that both sets were killed as a way to get to Lily and James during the first war. They may even be parts of the "thrice defying" mentioned in the prophecy.
If Harry's grandparents were killed to get at Lily and James, I think Hermione's parents are fair game. Putting Hermione's parents in danger, puts Hermione in danger, since if she found out about it, she would try and rescue them. If they were killed before she could save them, she may well want revenge. If the Death Eaters were lucky, they could get rid of one of Harry's closest friends and supporters. If they were unfortunately lucky, they could get Harry and who knows who else (Ginny, Ron, etc.).
If I were Hermione, I'd be very worried and try and urge Mum and Dad Granger to oh, say, relocate to Australia or Canada or somewhere else very far away from Britain and Europe until Voldemort is vanquished.
Dean Thomas' parents may also be at risk, since his biological father was killed by the DEs during the first war.
Y'all take care!
*michelle the librarian**
Solitaire - Mar 7, 2005 8:09 am (#1433 of 2486)
The murder of Hermione's parents would certainly devastate her ... and it would definitely get to Harry. Learning the circumstances of his own parents' murder has been a devastating thing for Harry. Would he stand idly by and do nothing if Hermione's own parents were in danger? I don't think so.
As to Hermione herself becoming a target, she was smart enough and powerful enough to stop Dolohov from killing her, and she didn't even have to kill him to do it. I'd say she has catapulted herself onto the DE radar as someone worth watching in her own right and not just as Harry's dear friend.
Solitaire
TomProffitt - Mar 7, 2005 11:08 am (#1434 of 2486)
Recall that the only surviving Evans is Petunia. Whatever steps were taken by Dumbledore to protect Lily's family were inadequate. We can hope that more concrete steps are taken to protect the Grangers.
Of course the Evans family could have been lost through non-Death Eater activity, but I have my doubts.
Phoenix song - Mar 7, 2005 11:47 am (#1435 of 2486)
I agree that Hermione has unwittingly placed a "bull's eye" right across her parents chest. I hope that Dumbledore will do a good job protecting them.
It would seem logical that Lily and Pet's parents would have fallen at the hands of the DEs. But there are a few things that might indicate that they died "ordinary" deaths. I would think that Pet would have vented to Harry by now if his "abnormality" had ultimately led to her parents' deaths. We also know from JKR's interviews that both sets of Harry's grandparents are dead, but that their stories aren't particularly important to the story line. I would think that if they had all been murdered by the DEs that they would be more integral. That's just my thoughts, of course.
Barbie
Solitaire - Mar 7, 2005 11:51 am (#1436 of 2486)
If we do not yet know that Lily's parents died at the hands of Voldemort or DEs, we can't really say whether the precautions were adequate or not. Jo has said that Harry's grandparents aren't really important to the plot, and I tend to feel that if they were killed as a result of LV/DE activity, that would be very important. JM2K, however ...
Solitaire
edit: Phoenix beat me to it!
Phoenix song - Mar 7, 2005 11:53 am (#1437 of 2486)
Solitaire...Great minds think alike!
Barbie
Prefect Marcus - Mar 7, 2005 1:47 pm (#1438 of 2486)
Edited by Mar 7, 2005 12:48 pm
I doubt Hermione's parents are any more vulnerable than any other muggle couple.
Voldemort cannot afford to be petty. He has limited resources. He lost a good chunk of them in the battle of the DoM. Why risk what he has left to off a harmless muggle couple that the MoM may be protecting?
If he does, then the MoM has his number. Just set up a protective ring around Harry's friends and relatives or use them as bait.
The same thing goes for raiding Azkaban prison to free the captured DeathEaters. Would Voldemort risk his remaining resources to spring a bunch of proven losers? 12 of them couldn't even overpower a handful of fourth and fifth years that they got the drop on.
The MoM is going to have Azkaban extremely well protected. He would likely lose more than he gained.
Leif Asgeirsson - Mar 7, 2005 4:30 pm (#1439 of 2486)
"I think it would only be common sense to conclude that what Voldemort has not found out (about Ron/Hermione) from Harry or Ginny's mind, he has found out from Draco Malfoy's mouth (through Lucius: I think Draco is beneath his notice)." (Muggle Doctor)
Thanks - I overlooked Draco's connections with Voldemort, and now it certainly seems that he would know about Harry's friends, especially as we can assume that he tries to get as much information as possible about Harry.
The giant squid - Mar 8, 2005 1:55 am (#1440 of 2486)
Would Voldemort risk his remaining resources to spring a bunch of proven losers? 12 of them couldn't even overpower a handful of fourth and fifth years that they got the drop on.--Prefect Marcus
You know, we've joked about this before, but you really have to think about it--a dozen adult, trained and (presumably) powerful wizards were shut down by a group only half as big. That alone would be horribly embarrasing, but add in the fact that the 6 in question were kids, semi-trained, and at least one is considered to be "slow" as far as magical ability is concerned, and it's hard to come up with a good reason for LV to want to spring them. They're failures of the worst order.
I'd continue, but this is Hermione's thread & I can't think of a good way to bring it back around to her...
--Mike
Mellilot Flower. - Mar 8, 2005 4:36 am (#1441 of 2486)
I agree that Voldemort will probably not focus any attention on muggles, or the muggle relatives of Harry's family- it seems a waste. But then again, could you imagine the effect this would have on the wizarding world and the muggle world? I'm pretty sure that JKR has said at some point that the two worlds are never reconcilled - but that explosion of Peters caused such fear! Without the time now to gradually build up the fear of his last rise to power, I think the Dark Lord will maybe want to cause a bit of a stir. Attacking a lot of muggles for no reason would be a brillian, unexpected way of doing so. It would express the anti-muggle feelings that the Dark Lord wishes to project, it would express power, and whatsmore would get Harry and that Muggle loving fool where it hurts and it would say quite clearly "I'm back and I'm not defeated. I remain defiant and strong" It would create such chaos that acheiving any other aims he might have would be easily achievable.
But then, would JKR take such a huge lead from current events? Or would she fear alienating people if she expressed her views about a war on terror through the books (and surely this couldn't have been planned as the books have been in the works for so long).
I hope this is still on topic- it is still about Hermione's parents in a way. Afterall, for maximum effect the Dark Lord might target familles that Harry knows, or that members of the order know and really on. Though I expect no more deaths except for those of one of the extended trio, the Weasleys (most specifically Molly) or Dumbledore will have such a huge effect as Sirius' did, so I'm not sure there'd be a point...
Joanne R. Reid - Mar 8, 2005 7:21 am (#1442 of 2486)
Hi,
I'm also thinking of Rita Skeeter's articles about Harry during the Tri-Wizard Tournament. Rita wrote about Hermione's relationship with Victor, portraying it as a betrayal of Harry. So, Hermione's relationship with Harry is well-known. If so, then the Granger's could very well be in trouble.
However, if they are attacked, Hermione would go ballistic! I think of her single-minded determination to avenge herself against Rita. Can you imagine what she'd do if her parents were attacked? The mind boggles! :-O
Thanks,
Solitaire - Mar 8, 2005 8:12 am (#1443 of 2486)
Isn't it odd ... I immediately think of Draco as the one who would take on the job of persecuting--if not actually killing--Hermione's parents. Why does my mind immediately fly to him when there are so many possibilities?
Solitaire
pottermom34 - Mar 8, 2005 8:20 am (#1444 of 2486)
Probably because he's always saying something about getting that filthy mudblood.and he's a git
wwtMask - Mar 8, 2005 10:55 am (#1445 of 2486)
And because, as a known bully, it would not be beneath him to use his magic against Muggles. That boy has "future Death Eater" written all over him.
Speaking of the little ferret, there's been speculation that Draco is now Ron's primary enemy. However, wouldn't it be fun to see Hermione be his opposition? I can just imagine how funny he'd look after getting hit with NEWT or higher level hexes. Unfortunately, I don't think Hermione cares to waste her valuable time on him.
Weeny Owl - Mar 8, 2005 2:57 pm (#1446 of 2486)
JKR could mention the Grangers without needing to use a lot of words. She could just have Hermione say that the Order has talked with her parents and added some protections to their home and business. The Order could also talk to the parents of other Muggle-born students such as the Creeveys.
Solitaire - Mar 8, 2005 8:02 pm (#1447 of 2486)
Mask, I moved part of your comment over on the Draco thread to discuss there. I hope you don't mind!
Solitaire
wwtMask - Mar 9, 2005 8:26 am (#1448 of 2486)
Not at all. I dare say that it'll work better over in Draco's thread than over here. Looking at the way Hermione has dealt with Draco for the last 2 books, I don't think she'll give him the time of day.
Leif Asgeirsson - Mar 11, 2005 4:40 pm (#1449 of 2486)
How would The Order manage to protect the families of all the muggle-born students? This would be a large operation, especially since the order is so small right now.
Steve Newton - Mar 11, 2005 7:08 pm (#1450 of 2486)
Well, I would guess that the only way to protect them would be to gather up all of the DEs and Voldemort. Having people hanging around as bodyguards just gets everybody hurt, it bing unlikely that one bodyguard could handle the 3 or 4 DEs that would be likely to show up.
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Choices - Mar 11, 2005 7:09 pm (#1451 of 2486)
I'm not sure it would be possible to protect them all. The Order could issue a warning to them and give them some hints about being careful and protecting themselves, but if Voldemort really wanted to get them, I don't see how they could avoid it, except to go into hiding/leave the country, etc.
Mellilot Flower. - Mar 12, 2005 4:18 am (#1452 of 2486)
Any protection system that was at all feasable would have to be a warning system... if any magic was detected at that house hold, the ministry would know and alert some one from the right department, or the order and they'd go investigate... not great considering magic could be used to kill instantly or transport people away instantly. In fact I'm not sure that the ministries alert system would include things like portkeys...
Jak Frank - Mar 12, 2005 5:27 am (#1453 of 2486)
Right, the Order isn't alone anymore. They have the entire (well, almost entire) Ministry of Magic behind them now. Protecting the families like Hermoine's shouldn't be too hard. Sort of like wizard witness protection.
Catherine - Mar 12, 2005 6:11 am (#1454 of 2486)
The concern for Hermione's parents is admirable, but this thread needs to focus more clearly on Hermione's character.
If members wish to discuss Ministry actions to protect Muggles, there is the "Shake-up at the Ministry" thread. If members wish to predict deaths of Hermione's parents, there is the "Who will die in books 6/7?" thread.
It's fine to discuss Hermione's relationship with her parents, her actions concerning them here. It's when I go several posts and don't see Hermione's name mentioned that I start to wonder if the thread is off-topic.
Czarina II - Mar 12, 2005 9:45 am (#1455 of 2486)
Well, I think having Hermione's parents die would be an excellent plot device to bring some depth to Hermione's character. She would be vulnerable and sad. This could make her oblivious to something that her otherwise keen intelligence would pick up, or perhaps she would lash out with magic against Malfoy, or do something else uncharacteristic.
Mellilot Flower. - Mar 12, 2005 4:39 pm (#1456 of 2486)
I agree, Czarina, I would love to see what kind of depth this would bring out of Hermione - would she show determination to overcome those that lashed out at her family like Neville or would she go to pieces? It would deffinately be interesting to see someone so rational and competent deal with this - I foresee something along the lines of "but there's no wood!" being involved to be honest. As we've seen Harry, who is competent, but not always so rational deal with death, and we've seen Neville who can be rational but not too competent deal with it (it being an attack on parents), it would be interesting and I guess informative to see Hermione deal with death in the family. I do however still feel that an attack on muggle parents would be seen as pointless and a drain on resources at this point in Voldemort's campaign.
Ydnam96 - Mar 13, 2005 8:59 am (#1457 of 2486)
Oh, to see Hermione's wrath unleashed. I think she would be seriously formidable and capable of feeling a strong sense of needing revenge. I feel she spends a lot of time trying to supress her emotional side and this would unleash that.
Solitaire - Mar 13, 2005 11:43 am (#1458 of 2486)
I don't see Hermione as trying to suppress her emotional side. Prior to the troll incident, Neville informed Ron and Harry that Hermione had been crying in the bathroom all afternoon. When they go down the trap door and get caught in the Devil's Snare, she got upset because she had no wood to light a fire and kill it. Ron had to remind her that she's a witch and could use her wand to shoot some fire at it.
In PoA, she spilled her guts to Hagrid about how miserable she was over Ron and Harry not talking to her, first about the Firebolt and then about Crookshanks. Then there was the incident when Snape was subbing for Remus and called her an insufferable know-it-all. Hermione went very red, put down her hand, and stared at the floor with her eyes full of tears.
In GoF, Snape insulted her over the growing teeth business, and she burst into tears and left. She was also very worried about Ron and Harry being at odds in the first part of GoF. And she was perfectly capable of showing emotion when she dressed down Ron in the Common Room following the Yule Ball.
I don't think Hermione suppresses her emotions at all. I believe her emotions run strong and deep. I do believe, however, that she trusts her intellect--which is formidable--more than she trusts her emotions, simply because she knows that feelings aren't always an accurate indicator of truth. She also knows that emotions must be controlled--which is a whole lot different than suppressed--because when they are allowed to run wild and dictate a person's actions, disasters can happen. In this respect, I believe she is a lot like McGonagall, whom I believe to be Hermione's role model.
Solitaire
Leif Asgeirsson - Mar 14, 2005 7:38 pm (#1459 of 2486)
That makes sense, Solitaire. And it would definitely seem right for McGonagall to be Hermione's role model. It seems, like you said that Hermione controls her emotions but doesn't suppress them, however, there are some times when I think she does try to suppress her emotions, maybe because she is trying to hard to control her emotions.
MickeyCee3948 - Mar 18, 2005 2:39 pm (#1460 of 2486)
I like to think that JKR will use Spinners End to move the MOM6 and their parents to a safe location where the ministry and the order can provide adequate protection.
The loss of Hermione's parents would be devastating to her but as has been mentioned very dangerous to the Dark Lord. The angry trio of Hermione Harry and DD. WOW,It's enough to make any DE cringe.
Mikie
Leif Asgeirsson - Mar 18, 2005 3:07 pm (#1461 of 2486)
no kidding
Gerald Costales - Mar 30, 2005 7:20 am (#1462 of 2486)
I have no doubt that Hermione will have to keep an eye out for Draco, Death Eaters, etc. going after herself or her parents. But, what about Marietta Edgecombe or Toady Umbridge? Marietta of all people has a debt to settle with Hermione (Remember: The Purple Pimples that spelled SNEAK emblazoned across Marietta's face). Also, Umbridge has a debt to settle with Hermione (do you hear a Centaur neighing).
Maybe it's Harry's turn to come to the aid of Hermione. Not since the Mountain Troll in Book 1 has Harry done anything to aid Hermione. Not that I believe Hermione is a damsel in distress and needs to be rescued by the Hero, Harry. But, with Cho out of the picture a nice rescue situation could lead to some romantic sparks between Harry and Hermione.
I like Ron and all but honestly Ron doesn't deserve Hermione! (Plus Hermione couldn't marry a dead Ron. Not that I want Ron dead. But, who doesn't think Ron will sacrifice himself for Harry.) Aren’t Harry the Hero and Hermione the Heroine of the Series? Besides Harry and Hermione would make a truly great couple. Don't you Think! JM2K. ;-) GC
PS Viktor Krum, HA! Mrs. Hermione Krum. NEVER! Now really, I wouldn’t think even Draco would want Hermione becoming Mrs. Krum. ;-) GC
PPS Mrs. Hermione Potter, that’s more like it. ;-) GC
Gotta jet before the "Ship" police find me. HeHe. ;-) GC
Puck - Mar 30, 2005 11:49 am (#1463 of 2486)
Marietta will likely be too fearful of Hermione to seek revenge. Plus, all the DA members are mad at her, so it's not like she'd have lots of back up.
I worry about Hermione's life more than Ron's. Just a gut instinct.
Potions Mistress - Mar 30, 2005 2:11 pm (#1464 of 2486)
Well, Puck, Ron may come from a family of a bunch of "Muggle-lovers," but it is Hermione who is Muggle-born, not to mention she has a lot of brains and skills to stop LV. My guess is she's near the top of his "Hit List."
~pm
Puck - Mar 30, 2005 8:11 pm (#1465 of 2486)
Plus, people talk about Ron sacrificing himself, but when the time comes, Hermione would be willing I think. Her family is muggles, if Harry doesn't defeat Voldy they are in great danger.
wwtMask - Mar 31, 2005 6:33 am (#1466 of 2486)
Hermione is a better witch, in my opinion, than Umbridge or Marietta. I'll take the odds on her against both of them any day.
Solitaire - Apr 2, 2005 12:36 am (#1467 of 2486)
I tend to agree with you, Mask ... only have we actually seen Marietta perform any magic? We know she is a snitch for certain; we know Hermione got the drop on her with the jinx on the contract; and we know Cho set her sleeve on fire during a DA meeting. This may mean she is not such a hot witch ... or it may mean we have not had the chance to see her in action, unimpeded. If her memory returns, we might see a different aspect of her character and ability.
Solitaire
Chemyst - Apr 2, 2005 5:42 pm (#1468 of 2486)
My guess is she's near the top of his (LV's) "Hit List." ~pm
True. LV wouldn't have much regard for her either as a muggle-born or as Harry's friend; and guessing from the era he was born, he may even be a warlock chauvinist pig and not think much of activist witches in general. But... I also find it hard to envision her future as a distressed damsel. For one, she already had her troll encounter. Her character has moved on. And for another, Lily already met her fate at the hands of LV, and I don't see how it would be satisfying storycraft to have Hermione meet a similar fate. The only way that works well is to have Harry be in love with her, but they are platonic friends. So while I expect to see her in grave danger, I'd be surprised if danger escalates to mortal peril.
StareyedSlytherin - Apr 2, 2005 5:55 pm (#1469 of 2486)
I don't think Hermione has much to fear from Marietta, although it will be interesting to see what Marietta is up to in the next book... but I think that with what happened, Marietta'll choose to stay clear of Hermione for a while at least. If she has anyone to fear from within Hogwarts, I think it'll be Draco more than anyone else. He's in a better position to cause them problems.
As for Hermione's parents, I tend to agree that they probably won't be worth LV's time and energy at this point. I got the impression, from an interview with JKR I think, that they probably aren't going to be that important in the series. If they were killed off, that would have a huge effect on Hermione, and would make them indirectly very important. I have the feeling that they simply won't get much mention. That's just my thoughts though, and I could be wrong^_^
Potions Mistress - Apr 2, 2005 6:49 pm (#1470 of 2486)
Chemyst, I don't think that Hermione will be the "damsel in distress" either. We have already seen that she can hold her own. It's possible that Hermione and her targets will be a target of LV, but I suspect that he will go after them through his DE's. Re-reading CoS last night, I was struck by the fact that Riddle-memory's goal was to kill Harry. I think that is LV's goal right now--kill Harry before anything and let his DE's take care of the rest--including Hermione.
~pm
Puck - Apr 2, 2005 7:24 pm (#1471 of 2486)
I'm not so sure about her being such a target of the DE. Don't they have bigger fish to worry about? You know, like those at the ministry and such. The kids held them off in the MoM, but they were losing. It was the grown-ups from the order that changed the tide and won the battle. Other than Harry, I don't think Voldy is too worried about minors, though nonewould hesitate if a young wizard happens to be in the way. That is why I think Hermione may be in danger. I don't think they will track her down, but she may throw herself out there in an effort to help others.
Solitaire - Apr 2, 2005 8:17 pm (#1472 of 2486)
Well, the DAs of today are the Order members of tomorrow, and Harry, Ron and Hermione are not that far from the age when Harry's parents entered the Order. The DEs have already seen that our Trio and the other three were willing to face what they had to face to save Sirius. Since they may be unaware of the extra DA training, they may perceive these kids as future threats to the DEs--which they are. I think that Dolohov may not like the idea of a little Muggle-born witch girl slipping through his fingers.
Solitaire
Puck - Apr 3, 2005 10:23 am (#1473 of 2486)
Yes, but will he be too proud to admit she slipped through his fingers. I can't see the DE telling Voldy that a group of kids got in their way. Better to blame the failed mission on DD and company. The boss won't be too happy with his crew if he discovers that a group of teenagers -who were cornered at one point- actually gave them a real run for their money.
Solitaire - Apr 3, 2005 11:36 am (#1474 of 2486)
I don't think they have to tell him. He was there, and he knows.
Tomoé - Apr 5, 2005 7:34 am (#1475 of 2486)
Plus, I'm sure the Daily Prophet reported it.
wwtMask - Apr 6, 2005 5:10 am (#1476 of 2486)
I thought the details of what happened down there weren't given to the prophet, except for the fact that Voldemort and Harry were down there?
Gerald Costales - Apr 6, 2005 6:48 am (#1477 of 2486)
Edited Apr 6, 2005 7:38 am
I don't think Hermione's parents are in any major danger. The Series is about Harry and the Grangers are extremely minor characters. Hermione will definitely need to look out for Draco. But, Draco will be gunning for Harry. After all Harry helped put Lucius in Azkaban.
I think that there is some hope for a Harry and Hermione coupling. Remember Lily loathed James. That is to say, we can expect the the unexpected from JKR. To me Harry & Hermione makes more sense than Ron & Hermione.
The Marietta issue is in my opinion still unresolved. What Hermione did to Marietta was extremely powerful. Marietta's punishment (purple pimple that spell SNEAK across her forehead) touches on the issues of loyality, betrayal, and justice. Who will go what way is still unresolved. Some people in our Forum are greatly divided on the Marietta issue and I would assume that Hogwarts' students will be as equally divided on whether Marietta was punished justly.
Despite the headlines some people will still doubt the reality of the return of Voldermort. People were more influenced by the Quibbler article about Harry than all the lies published by the Daily Prophet. And had this point the credibility of the Daily Prophet would be suspect amongst most of the Wizard community. Wasn't it the Daily Prophet that was just recently calling Harry an attention grabbing and misguided youth and Dumbledore was equally vilifed by the Daily Prophet.
Now, if Rita writes something about the MoM affair than I think we can expect a stir amongst the Wizarding community. JM2K ;-) GC
PS There could also be an exclusive story in the Quibbler from Luna. What better than an eyewitness account! ;-) GC
edited
Solitaire - Apr 6, 2005 10:37 pm (#1478 of 2486)
Didn't Fudge make a public statement about Voldemort's return? After all, he saw him with his own eyes this time--in the Ministry, of all places--as did other Ministry workers. I should think there was already QUITE a stir following that press release.
Solitaire
Gerald Costales - Apr 7, 2005 6:27 am (#1479 of 2486)
Edited by S.E. Jones Apr 7, 2005 8:42 am
"Didn't Fudge make a public statement about Voldemort's return?" Solitaire
Nixon Tells Editors, 'I'm Not a Crook'
By Carroll Kilpatrick Washington Post Staff Writer Sunday, November 18, 1973; Page A01
Orlando, Fla, Nov. 17 -- Declaring that "I am not a crook," President Nixon vigorously defended his record in the Watergate case tonight and said he had never profited from his public service.
"I have earned every cent. And in all of my years of public life I have never obstructed justice," Mr. Nixon said.
Source - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Don't you think there's a question of credibility!
Solitaire, Fudge could be screaming fire in a crowded theater, but there would be some doubt by some in the Wizarding community, Don't you think! ;-) GC
PS I don't trust Fudge. And I don't think alot of others trust him either. ;-) GC
PPS First there was the Harrygate coverup - Fudge, "There is NO Voldermort!!! Harry, is an attention seeking LIAR!!!" ;-) GC
PPPS Voldermortgate? Fudge is the Wizard who cried Wolf. ;-) GC
->Please watch the references. We do not discuss politics on the Forum. Thank you.<- S.E. Jones
Solitaire - Apr 7, 2005 6:54 am (#1480 of 2486)
Well, I do not trust him, either, but there were others who saw Voldemort in the Ministry.
Tomoé - Apr 7, 2005 5:36 pm (#1481 of 2486)
On a completely different subject, Hermione's chance of becoming Head Girl are getting even better:
Rowling [...] was head girl of her comprehensive school in Chepstow (Matt Seaton Meetis J.K. Rowling, 18 April 2001)
Back on the will Marietta try to hex Hermione's back topic. I don't think Marietta will ever try it, I believe, if their is a fight, it will be on another level. Marietta's best friend is Cho (who had a bad ship with Harry). Her best firend's boyfriend is Michael Corner (who get dropped by Ginny). Add Padma Patil (who had a bad date with Ron) and Voldemort's "very great" gift for spreading discord and enmity in the mess, I affraid half the Ravenclaws could become anti-Gryffindors ...
Puck - Apr 7, 2005 7:46 pm (#1482 of 2486)
You also need to realize that many of those Ravenclaws were in the room of requirement when Umbridge trudged down the hall. Their names were on the list. Harry and Ron would he ticked if someone turned them in, even if they were in the same house. I think most of the DA will be ticked at Marietta, if they know it was her. Possible she went to the hospital wing and was cured before they saw her. I just don't think Hermione needs to worry about her. She's obviously too worried about what Mom will think to cause trouble.
S.E. Jones - Apr 7, 2005 9:11 pm (#1483 of 2486)
I don't think Marietta will do anything to Hermione, or let her friends for that matter. I mean, they pointed out that the curse Hermione put on the paper that hit Marietta was a baddie; even Madame Pomfrey had trouble healing it. I think Hermione made it crystal clear to everyone in the DA that she's not one to mess with.
Tomoé - Apr 7, 2005 9:47 pm (#1484 of 2486)
Puck -> You also need to realize that many of those Ravenclaws were in the room of requirement when Umbridge trudged down the hall. Their names were on the list.
And who was responsive of the list? Hermione. They could argue she didn't take her responsability seriously enough. Anyway, there weren't any consequence for any of the DA member, so Marietta's betrayal is meaningless to them while Harry, Ron and Ginny's lack of romantic skills is real. Plus, beside the broken hearted ones, only Luna, Anthony and Terry were in the DA. Marietta's betrayal means nothing to Lisa Turpin, Mandy Brocklehurst or Kevin Entwhistle, they could be convinced Hermione is an evil little witch by Marietta bad mouthing.
Puck -> Possible she went to the hospital wing and was cured before they saw her.
You're right, Marietta did go to the hospital wing, but after 24h, she "was still up in the hospital wing and Madame Pomfrey had not been able to make the slightest improvement to her pimples" (OoP ch28) We don't heard of her again before the last chapter, as Cho was passing, accompanied by Marietta Edgecombe, who was wearing a balaclava (OoP ch38) So the problem doesn't seem to be solved as Marietta came back home. This is very interesting, Mme Pomfrey was always able to fix things up until Marietta and Montague, but that's for another thread.
There is room for a feud between some of the Ravenclaws and the sextet, it doesn't have to happen, but it is odd Jo made of difficult relationship for each of HRH + Ginny. Plus, three broken hearthed ones out of four hang around together and the last one is in the same house ...
I do hope I'm wrong, but it would make sense ...
MickeyCee3948 - Apr 7, 2005 10:18 pm (#1485 of 2486)
Ravenclaws are sensible, loyal, intelligent students who I doubt will have alot of sympathy for Marietta. For that matter if Marietta remembers anything of what happen, I think she will probably consider herself lucky and go on about her studies.
Mikie
Tomoé - Apr 7, 2005 11:08 pm (#1486 of 2486)
I'm afraid I'll still worry until July. ^_~
Solitaire - Apr 8, 2005 2:05 am (#1487 of 2486)
Mme Pomfrey was always able to fix things up until Marietta and Montague
Interesting point! The Weasley Twins and Hermione have both been able to "confund" Mme. Pomfrey. Does this foreshadow their growing skill and power?
Snuffles - Apr 8, 2005 2:16 am (#1488 of 2486)
Hmm interesting point Solitaire, I always just hoped that maybe Mme Pomfrey could have helped, she well just didn't want to! a bit like when the teachers couldn't 'help' Umbridge. Thinking about it, i'm not sure that is her style though!
Solitaire - Apr 8, 2005 2:27 am (#1489 of 2486)
Snuffles, I have thought that might have been the case, too. I don't feel it's wise to pursue this topic, however, since the Marietta thread which focused on this issue was closed.
Solitaire
Mellilot Flower. - Apr 8, 2005 2:40 am (#1490 of 2486)
Poppy wouldn't do that- remember when Minerva was stunned? She said that she'd retire in protest if she didn't feel the children needed her. She would never allow a child to suffer for longer than they had to. She could, however have been unable, or unsure what to do without consulting Dumbledore. The fact that for the first time ever we see her unable to counter a curse is more suggestive of Dolores' bad reign at Hogwarts? This is perhaps related to ideas that Albus is something of a King at Hogworts and we all know that Kings have long been reputed to have special healing powers. But that's all largely off topic.
I doubt that the Ravenclaws will gang up and decide to hate the Gryffindors. Although in the past we have seen the Hufflepuffs decide they didn't like the Gryffindors it wasn't for something so normal and everyday like high school relationships. I can't see how Micheal Corner was particularly upset by his break up with Ginny if he was able to go out with Cho straight away, and simillarly with Cho. It seems a little odd that she can cry for a year about the death of an ex boyfriend while still seeing someone else and then almost immeadiately after dumping him seeing someone else... But again that's another post.
I'd say that I expect things to start getting much more muddled and confusing in the next book as a result of relationships, and it might have been interesting to see some initial friction as a result. But we're getting towards the end of the series and more than anything I expect unity to start shining through now that the ways have been reunited and things are much more out in the open, and isn't the next book supposed to be shorter than the previous two? So I'm not sure if there'll be room to fit all that in...?
Does anyone else see Hermione failing her Newts for what she considers to be a greater cause? It seems to me that she's been working up to it. From her rather skewed perspectives in first year that school was everything, to her somewhat more balanced view later and then her expression of a wish to dedicate her life to the house elves it seems that a lot has changed. Learning and booksmarts were everything to her when she first entered the wizarding world, and yet she was put into Gryfindor. Here she met two people who cared not a jot for learning unless it was to help them solve some problem or other. Over the years it seems that she has seen books and learning more and more in a simillar light. Instead of having books out of the library for light reading, and just happening to have something of use in them (Nicholas Flamell), she seeks out a book that she's read before and knows will help (Hogwarts; a History) and then actively spends time in the library looking up new information to help her cause (Buckbeaks trail) in book four we see something simillar with her search for spells to help Harry. Book five sees something of a lapse, with her picking up a book and dreamily reading it merely because it's there, but we also see her specifically not reading and then reading to spite a person rather than for the sheer enjoyment of it. The causes that she's been fighting for have gradually overshadowed her book learning... could this go to the extent where she will willingly fail exams, or miss them in order to help Harry, the Order or house elves?
(of course for all we know she could still read as much for pleasure as she did before, but it's become so much the norm for Harry that he's ceased to notice- but the point still stands that none of the books she might have read for pleasure have been mentioned as usefull since book two)
Gerald Costales - Apr 8, 2005 7:45 am (#1491 of 2486)
(re: post #1479)
"->Please watch the references. We do not discuss politics on the Forum. Thank you.<-" S.E. Jones
Yes, Ms Jones will do. I just couldn't help but think of Pres. Nixon when I read that post. Ex-Minister Fudge is a politician as well as Pres. Nixon was a politician. I had some doubts about the Nixon reference. But since it dealt with the issue of Fudge's credibility, I thought the comparison was appropriate. Fudge is as flawed and weak as any of us are at times. I acknowledge the good any politican does while recognizing that politicians as are flawed and weak as any of us. (Hey, we all put our robes on one arm at a time.)
(re: post #1483)
"I don't think Marietta will do anything to Hermione, or let her friends for that matter. I mean, they pointed out that the curse Hermione put on the paper that hit Marietta was a baddie; even Madame Pomfrey had trouble healing it. I think Hermione made it crystal clear to everyone in the DA that she's not one to mess with." S.E. Jones
I don't see JKR simply ignoring that Mariett was hit by a "baddie" of a curse/hex. I think the issue of Marietta's punishment is still unresolved. Did that punishment really justify the crime/misdeed?! ;-) GC
wwtMask - Apr 8, 2005 8:23 am (#1492 of 2486)
I don't think Hermione has a lot to worry about. True, she did put the hurt on a senior Ravenclaw, but Ravenclaw's are pragmatic. All of the Ravenclaw's know she's smart and knows her magic. Furthermore, the Ravenclaw's in the DA know she's at least 2 years ahead of her peers in magical knowledge and practical application of the magic (seeing as the Protean charm is NEWT standard). Finally, counting all of her adventures with Harry (the most impressive being facing DEs and surviving) and the fact that no one could break her jinx on Marietta, you'd have to be extremely, mind-numbingly, Crabbe-and-Goyle level thick to have a go at her. Maybe a year ago, before the DA, a duel with Hermione would've been a bit more fair, but she's battle tested now. And Hermione is smart enough to handle people in other ways besides dueling. The biggest reason they won't bother her is because Gryffendor will bury them. The loyalty runs far too deep in that house to allow others to attack one of them. No, I don't see Ravenclaws taking her on, it just doesn't make any good sense for them.
Mellilot, I really can't see Hermione getting less than O's on her NEWTs. She seemed to juggle her responsibilities pretty well in OotP and no doubt got all O's, so, even with all else that will be going on, I don't see Hermione getting behind on her studies. If she has to survive on 3 hours of sleep a day, she'll get her work and studying done in addition to whatever other adventures and concerns she has.
Tomoé - Apr 8, 2005 9:59 am (#1493 of 2486)
I never thought of massive cursing campain against Hermione, I thought more simple stuff like refusing to team up with her (I'm assuming the groupe will be mixed in the two last years, as they will chose only a handfull of subjects), saying cynical coment about her, refusing to talk to her, leaving the room after she entered if they don't have to stay. Nothing that would start a war between Gryffindor and Ravenclaw, but enough to bother Hermione.
And I don't think it will be all the Ravenclaws, just some of them.
wwtMask - Apr 8, 2005 10:02 am (#1494 of 2486)
I don't know...she's dealt with the worst that Rita Skeeter and Slytherin could dish out, so I can imagine that Hermione won't be too bothered by the Ravenclaw's either.
Tomoé - Apr 8, 2005 10:58 am (#1495 of 2486)
Good point, would it really bother Hermione if some Ravenclaws stop talking to her ....
Solitaire, Snuffles and anyone else interested, I started a thread named Marietta and Montague - What's behind their illnesses to talk about why Mme Pomfrey failled to cure Marietta and Montague. I hope the modarators will allow it to stay.
Aqualu Nifey - Apr 9, 2005 4:47 pm (#1496 of 2486)
I think some people she values not talking to her might upset her quite a bit more than a head on attack. Hermione's kinda touchy about those subjects. But maybe some random Ravenclaws wouldn't bother her a whole lot.
Moaning Turtle - Apr 18, 2005 3:30 pm (#1497 of 2486)
To previous messages: "I think Hermy is indeed afraid of Voldemort. Just because she's let the practical side of her personality take over and is refusing to let a name scare her, doesn't mean she isn't afraid of the person..... " (S.E Jones post #9)
definately agree - as quoted by Hermione in both CoS book and movie: "Fear of a name only increases fear of the thing itself" To which she is basically saying 'im scared of Voldemort, and if i say you know who, i will be even more scared'
Catherine - Apr 18, 2005 3:34 pm (#1498 of 2486)
Moaning Turtle, when did Hermione say "Fear of a name only increases fear of the thing itself" in the book CoS?
I don't recall that scene in CoS.
haymoni - Apr 18, 2005 3:46 pm (#1499 of 2486)
Dumbledore said it in the book.
Hermione, the best-line-taker, said it in the movie.
Weeny Owl - Apr 19, 2005 7:39 am (#1500 of 2486)
In the movie, she said it to Lucius Malfoy at the bookstore, but she nver said it in the books.
Dumbledore said it in the hospital wing at the end of the first book. He told Harry that he should always use the proper name for something.
I think Hermione's use of Voldemort's name is indicative of her Gryffindor bravery, but it's also part of her logical side.
I'm not sure it would be possible to protect them all. The Order could issue a warning to them and give them some hints about being careful and protecting themselves, but if Voldemort really wanted to get them, I don't see how they could avoid it, except to go into hiding/leave the country, etc.
Mellilot Flower. - Mar 12, 2005 4:18 am (#1452 of 2486)
Any protection system that was at all feasable would have to be a warning system... if any magic was detected at that house hold, the ministry would know and alert some one from the right department, or the order and they'd go investigate... not great considering magic could be used to kill instantly or transport people away instantly. In fact I'm not sure that the ministries alert system would include things like portkeys...
Jak Frank - Mar 12, 2005 5:27 am (#1453 of 2486)
Right, the Order isn't alone anymore. They have the entire (well, almost entire) Ministry of Magic behind them now. Protecting the families like Hermoine's shouldn't be too hard. Sort of like wizard witness protection.
Catherine - Mar 12, 2005 6:11 am (#1454 of 2486)
The concern for Hermione's parents is admirable, but this thread needs to focus more clearly on Hermione's character.
If members wish to discuss Ministry actions to protect Muggles, there is the "Shake-up at the Ministry" thread. If members wish to predict deaths of Hermione's parents, there is the "Who will die in books 6/7?" thread.
It's fine to discuss Hermione's relationship with her parents, her actions concerning them here. It's when I go several posts and don't see Hermione's name mentioned that I start to wonder if the thread is off-topic.
Czarina II - Mar 12, 2005 9:45 am (#1455 of 2486)
Well, I think having Hermione's parents die would be an excellent plot device to bring some depth to Hermione's character. She would be vulnerable and sad. This could make her oblivious to something that her otherwise keen intelligence would pick up, or perhaps she would lash out with magic against Malfoy, or do something else uncharacteristic.
Mellilot Flower. - Mar 12, 2005 4:39 pm (#1456 of 2486)
I agree, Czarina, I would love to see what kind of depth this would bring out of Hermione - would she show determination to overcome those that lashed out at her family like Neville or would she go to pieces? It would deffinately be interesting to see someone so rational and competent deal with this - I foresee something along the lines of "but there's no wood!" being involved to be honest. As we've seen Harry, who is competent, but not always so rational deal with death, and we've seen Neville who can be rational but not too competent deal with it (it being an attack on parents), it would be interesting and I guess informative to see Hermione deal with death in the family. I do however still feel that an attack on muggle parents would be seen as pointless and a drain on resources at this point in Voldemort's campaign.
Ydnam96 - Mar 13, 2005 8:59 am (#1457 of 2486)
Oh, to see Hermione's wrath unleashed. I think she would be seriously formidable and capable of feeling a strong sense of needing revenge. I feel she spends a lot of time trying to supress her emotional side and this would unleash that.
Solitaire - Mar 13, 2005 11:43 am (#1458 of 2486)
I don't see Hermione as trying to suppress her emotional side. Prior to the troll incident, Neville informed Ron and Harry that Hermione had been crying in the bathroom all afternoon. When they go down the trap door and get caught in the Devil's Snare, she got upset because she had no wood to light a fire and kill it. Ron had to remind her that she's a witch and could use her wand to shoot some fire at it.
In PoA, she spilled her guts to Hagrid about how miserable she was over Ron and Harry not talking to her, first about the Firebolt and then about Crookshanks. Then there was the incident when Snape was subbing for Remus and called her an insufferable know-it-all. Hermione went very red, put down her hand, and stared at the floor with her eyes full of tears.
In GoF, Snape insulted her over the growing teeth business, and she burst into tears and left. She was also very worried about Ron and Harry being at odds in the first part of GoF. And she was perfectly capable of showing emotion when she dressed down Ron in the Common Room following the Yule Ball.
I don't think Hermione suppresses her emotions at all. I believe her emotions run strong and deep. I do believe, however, that she trusts her intellect--which is formidable--more than she trusts her emotions, simply because she knows that feelings aren't always an accurate indicator of truth. She also knows that emotions must be controlled--which is a whole lot different than suppressed--because when they are allowed to run wild and dictate a person's actions, disasters can happen. In this respect, I believe she is a lot like McGonagall, whom I believe to be Hermione's role model.
Solitaire
Leif Asgeirsson - Mar 14, 2005 7:38 pm (#1459 of 2486)
That makes sense, Solitaire. And it would definitely seem right for McGonagall to be Hermione's role model. It seems, like you said that Hermione controls her emotions but doesn't suppress them, however, there are some times when I think she does try to suppress her emotions, maybe because she is trying to hard to control her emotions.
MickeyCee3948 - Mar 18, 2005 2:39 pm (#1460 of 2486)
I like to think that JKR will use Spinners End to move the MOM6 and their parents to a safe location where the ministry and the order can provide adequate protection.
The loss of Hermione's parents would be devastating to her but as has been mentioned very dangerous to the Dark Lord. The angry trio of Hermione Harry and DD. WOW,It's enough to make any DE cringe.
Mikie
Leif Asgeirsson - Mar 18, 2005 3:07 pm (#1461 of 2486)
no kidding
Gerald Costales - Mar 30, 2005 7:20 am (#1462 of 2486)
I have no doubt that Hermione will have to keep an eye out for Draco, Death Eaters, etc. going after herself or her parents. But, what about Marietta Edgecombe or Toady Umbridge? Marietta of all people has a debt to settle with Hermione (Remember: The Purple Pimples that spelled SNEAK emblazoned across Marietta's face). Also, Umbridge has a debt to settle with Hermione (do you hear a Centaur neighing).
Maybe it's Harry's turn to come to the aid of Hermione. Not since the Mountain Troll in Book 1 has Harry done anything to aid Hermione. Not that I believe Hermione is a damsel in distress and needs to be rescued by the Hero, Harry. But, with Cho out of the picture a nice rescue situation could lead to some romantic sparks between Harry and Hermione.
I like Ron and all but honestly Ron doesn't deserve Hermione! (Plus Hermione couldn't marry a dead Ron. Not that I want Ron dead. But, who doesn't think Ron will sacrifice himself for Harry.) Aren’t Harry the Hero and Hermione the Heroine of the Series? Besides Harry and Hermione would make a truly great couple. Don't you Think! JM2K. ;-) GC
PS Viktor Krum, HA! Mrs. Hermione Krum. NEVER! Now really, I wouldn’t think even Draco would want Hermione becoming Mrs. Krum. ;-) GC
PPS Mrs. Hermione Potter, that’s more like it. ;-) GC
Gotta jet before the "Ship" police find me. HeHe. ;-) GC
Puck - Mar 30, 2005 11:49 am (#1463 of 2486)
Marietta will likely be too fearful of Hermione to seek revenge. Plus, all the DA members are mad at her, so it's not like she'd have lots of back up.
I worry about Hermione's life more than Ron's. Just a gut instinct.
Potions Mistress - Mar 30, 2005 2:11 pm (#1464 of 2486)
Well, Puck, Ron may come from a family of a bunch of "Muggle-lovers," but it is Hermione who is Muggle-born, not to mention she has a lot of brains and skills to stop LV. My guess is she's near the top of his "Hit List."
~pm
Puck - Mar 30, 2005 8:11 pm (#1465 of 2486)
Plus, people talk about Ron sacrificing himself, but when the time comes, Hermione would be willing I think. Her family is muggles, if Harry doesn't defeat Voldy they are in great danger.
wwtMask - Mar 31, 2005 6:33 am (#1466 of 2486)
Hermione is a better witch, in my opinion, than Umbridge or Marietta. I'll take the odds on her against both of them any day.
Solitaire - Apr 2, 2005 12:36 am (#1467 of 2486)
I tend to agree with you, Mask ... only have we actually seen Marietta perform any magic? We know she is a snitch for certain; we know Hermione got the drop on her with the jinx on the contract; and we know Cho set her sleeve on fire during a DA meeting. This may mean she is not such a hot witch ... or it may mean we have not had the chance to see her in action, unimpeded. If her memory returns, we might see a different aspect of her character and ability.
Solitaire
Chemyst - Apr 2, 2005 5:42 pm (#1468 of 2486)
My guess is she's near the top of his (LV's) "Hit List." ~pm
True. LV wouldn't have much regard for her either as a muggle-born or as Harry's friend; and guessing from the era he was born, he may even be a warlock chauvinist pig and not think much of activist witches in general. But... I also find it hard to envision her future as a distressed damsel. For one, she already had her troll encounter. Her character has moved on. And for another, Lily already met her fate at the hands of LV, and I don't see how it would be satisfying storycraft to have Hermione meet a similar fate. The only way that works well is to have Harry be in love with her, but they are platonic friends. So while I expect to see her in grave danger, I'd be surprised if danger escalates to mortal peril.
StareyedSlytherin - Apr 2, 2005 5:55 pm (#1469 of 2486)
I don't think Hermione has much to fear from Marietta, although it will be interesting to see what Marietta is up to in the next book... but I think that with what happened, Marietta'll choose to stay clear of Hermione for a while at least. If she has anyone to fear from within Hogwarts, I think it'll be Draco more than anyone else. He's in a better position to cause them problems.
As for Hermione's parents, I tend to agree that they probably won't be worth LV's time and energy at this point. I got the impression, from an interview with JKR I think, that they probably aren't going to be that important in the series. If they were killed off, that would have a huge effect on Hermione, and would make them indirectly very important. I have the feeling that they simply won't get much mention. That's just my thoughts though, and I could be wrong^_^
Potions Mistress - Apr 2, 2005 6:49 pm (#1470 of 2486)
Chemyst, I don't think that Hermione will be the "damsel in distress" either. We have already seen that she can hold her own. It's possible that Hermione and her targets will be a target of LV, but I suspect that he will go after them through his DE's. Re-reading CoS last night, I was struck by the fact that Riddle-memory's goal was to kill Harry. I think that is LV's goal right now--kill Harry before anything and let his DE's take care of the rest--including Hermione.
~pm
Puck - Apr 2, 2005 7:24 pm (#1471 of 2486)
I'm not so sure about her being such a target of the DE. Don't they have bigger fish to worry about? You know, like those at the ministry and such. The kids held them off in the MoM, but they were losing. It was the grown-ups from the order that changed the tide and won the battle. Other than Harry, I don't think Voldy is too worried about minors, though nonewould hesitate if a young wizard happens to be in the way. That is why I think Hermione may be in danger. I don't think they will track her down, but she may throw herself out there in an effort to help others.
Solitaire - Apr 2, 2005 8:17 pm (#1472 of 2486)
Well, the DAs of today are the Order members of tomorrow, and Harry, Ron and Hermione are not that far from the age when Harry's parents entered the Order. The DEs have already seen that our Trio and the other three were willing to face what they had to face to save Sirius. Since they may be unaware of the extra DA training, they may perceive these kids as future threats to the DEs--which they are. I think that Dolohov may not like the idea of a little Muggle-born witch girl slipping through his fingers.
Solitaire
Puck - Apr 3, 2005 10:23 am (#1473 of 2486)
Yes, but will he be too proud to admit she slipped through his fingers. I can't see the DE telling Voldy that a group of kids got in their way. Better to blame the failed mission on DD and company. The boss won't be too happy with his crew if he discovers that a group of teenagers -who were cornered at one point- actually gave them a real run for their money.
Solitaire - Apr 3, 2005 11:36 am (#1474 of 2486)
I don't think they have to tell him. He was there, and he knows.
Tomoé - Apr 5, 2005 7:34 am (#1475 of 2486)
Plus, I'm sure the Daily Prophet reported it.
wwtMask - Apr 6, 2005 5:10 am (#1476 of 2486)
I thought the details of what happened down there weren't given to the prophet, except for the fact that Voldemort and Harry were down there?
Gerald Costales - Apr 6, 2005 6:48 am (#1477 of 2486)
Edited Apr 6, 2005 7:38 am
I don't think Hermione's parents are in any major danger. The Series is about Harry and the Grangers are extremely minor characters. Hermione will definitely need to look out for Draco. But, Draco will be gunning for Harry. After all Harry helped put Lucius in Azkaban.
I think that there is some hope for a Harry and Hermione coupling. Remember Lily loathed James. That is to say, we can expect the the unexpected from JKR. To me Harry & Hermione makes more sense than Ron & Hermione.
The Marietta issue is in my opinion still unresolved. What Hermione did to Marietta was extremely powerful. Marietta's punishment (purple pimple that spell SNEAK across her forehead) touches on the issues of loyality, betrayal, and justice. Who will go what way is still unresolved. Some people in our Forum are greatly divided on the Marietta issue and I would assume that Hogwarts' students will be as equally divided on whether Marietta was punished justly.
Despite the headlines some people will still doubt the reality of the return of Voldermort. People were more influenced by the Quibbler article about Harry than all the lies published by the Daily Prophet. And had this point the credibility of the Daily Prophet would be suspect amongst most of the Wizard community. Wasn't it the Daily Prophet that was just recently calling Harry an attention grabbing and misguided youth and Dumbledore was equally vilifed by the Daily Prophet.
Now, if Rita writes something about the MoM affair than I think we can expect a stir amongst the Wizarding community. JM2K ;-) GC
PS There could also be an exclusive story in the Quibbler from Luna. What better than an eyewitness account! ;-) GC
edited
Solitaire - Apr 6, 2005 10:37 pm (#1478 of 2486)
Didn't Fudge make a public statement about Voldemort's return? After all, he saw him with his own eyes this time--in the Ministry, of all places--as did other Ministry workers. I should think there was already QUITE a stir following that press release.
Solitaire
Gerald Costales - Apr 7, 2005 6:27 am (#1479 of 2486)
Edited by S.E. Jones Apr 7, 2005 8:42 am
"Didn't Fudge make a public statement about Voldemort's return?" Solitaire
Nixon Tells Editors, 'I'm Not a Crook'
By Carroll Kilpatrick Washington Post Staff Writer Sunday, November 18, 1973; Page A01
Orlando, Fla, Nov. 17 -- Declaring that "I am not a crook," President Nixon vigorously defended his record in the Watergate case tonight and said he had never profited from his public service.
"I have earned every cent. And in all of my years of public life I have never obstructed justice," Mr. Nixon said.
Source - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Don't you think there's a question of credibility!
Solitaire, Fudge could be screaming fire in a crowded theater, but there would be some doubt by some in the Wizarding community, Don't you think! ;-) GC
PS I don't trust Fudge. And I don't think alot of others trust him either. ;-) GC
PPS First there was the Harrygate coverup - Fudge, "There is NO Voldermort!!! Harry, is an attention seeking LIAR!!!" ;-) GC
PPPS Voldermortgate? Fudge is the Wizard who cried Wolf. ;-) GC
->Please watch the references. We do not discuss politics on the Forum. Thank you.<- S.E. Jones
Solitaire - Apr 7, 2005 6:54 am (#1480 of 2486)
Well, I do not trust him, either, but there were others who saw Voldemort in the Ministry.
Tomoé - Apr 7, 2005 5:36 pm (#1481 of 2486)
On a completely different subject, Hermione's chance of becoming Head Girl are getting even better:
Rowling [...] was head girl of her comprehensive school in Chepstow (Matt Seaton Meetis J.K. Rowling, 18 April 2001)
Back on the will Marietta try to hex Hermione's back topic. I don't think Marietta will ever try it, I believe, if their is a fight, it will be on another level. Marietta's best friend is Cho (who had a bad ship with Harry). Her best firend's boyfriend is Michael Corner (who get dropped by Ginny). Add Padma Patil (who had a bad date with Ron) and Voldemort's "very great" gift for spreading discord and enmity in the mess, I affraid half the Ravenclaws could become anti-Gryffindors ...
Puck - Apr 7, 2005 7:46 pm (#1482 of 2486)
You also need to realize that many of those Ravenclaws were in the room of requirement when Umbridge trudged down the hall. Their names were on the list. Harry and Ron would he ticked if someone turned them in, even if they were in the same house. I think most of the DA will be ticked at Marietta, if they know it was her. Possible she went to the hospital wing and was cured before they saw her. I just don't think Hermione needs to worry about her. She's obviously too worried about what Mom will think to cause trouble.
S.E. Jones - Apr 7, 2005 9:11 pm (#1483 of 2486)
I don't think Marietta will do anything to Hermione, or let her friends for that matter. I mean, they pointed out that the curse Hermione put on the paper that hit Marietta was a baddie; even Madame Pomfrey had trouble healing it. I think Hermione made it crystal clear to everyone in the DA that she's not one to mess with.
Tomoé - Apr 7, 2005 9:47 pm (#1484 of 2486)
Puck -> You also need to realize that many of those Ravenclaws were in the room of requirement when Umbridge trudged down the hall. Their names were on the list.
And who was responsive of the list? Hermione. They could argue she didn't take her responsability seriously enough. Anyway, there weren't any consequence for any of the DA member, so Marietta's betrayal is meaningless to them while Harry, Ron and Ginny's lack of romantic skills is real. Plus, beside the broken hearted ones, only Luna, Anthony and Terry were in the DA. Marietta's betrayal means nothing to Lisa Turpin, Mandy Brocklehurst or Kevin Entwhistle, they could be convinced Hermione is an evil little witch by Marietta bad mouthing.
Puck -> Possible she went to the hospital wing and was cured before they saw her.
You're right, Marietta did go to the hospital wing, but after 24h, she "was still up in the hospital wing and Madame Pomfrey had not been able to make the slightest improvement to her pimples" (OoP ch28) We don't heard of her again before the last chapter, as Cho was passing, accompanied by Marietta Edgecombe, who was wearing a balaclava (OoP ch38) So the problem doesn't seem to be solved as Marietta came back home. This is very interesting, Mme Pomfrey was always able to fix things up until Marietta and Montague, but that's for another thread.
There is room for a feud between some of the Ravenclaws and the sextet, it doesn't have to happen, but it is odd Jo made of difficult relationship for each of HRH + Ginny. Plus, three broken hearthed ones out of four hang around together and the last one is in the same house ...
I do hope I'm wrong, but it would make sense ...
MickeyCee3948 - Apr 7, 2005 10:18 pm (#1485 of 2486)
Ravenclaws are sensible, loyal, intelligent students who I doubt will have alot of sympathy for Marietta. For that matter if Marietta remembers anything of what happen, I think she will probably consider herself lucky and go on about her studies.
Mikie
Tomoé - Apr 7, 2005 11:08 pm (#1486 of 2486)
I'm afraid I'll still worry until July. ^_~
Solitaire - Apr 8, 2005 2:05 am (#1487 of 2486)
Mme Pomfrey was always able to fix things up until Marietta and Montague
Interesting point! The Weasley Twins and Hermione have both been able to "confund" Mme. Pomfrey. Does this foreshadow their growing skill and power?
Snuffles - Apr 8, 2005 2:16 am (#1488 of 2486)
Hmm interesting point Solitaire, I always just hoped that maybe Mme Pomfrey could have helped, she well just didn't want to! a bit like when the teachers couldn't 'help' Umbridge. Thinking about it, i'm not sure that is her style though!
Solitaire - Apr 8, 2005 2:27 am (#1489 of 2486)
Snuffles, I have thought that might have been the case, too. I don't feel it's wise to pursue this topic, however, since the Marietta thread which focused on this issue was closed.
Solitaire
Mellilot Flower. - Apr 8, 2005 2:40 am (#1490 of 2486)
Poppy wouldn't do that- remember when Minerva was stunned? She said that she'd retire in protest if she didn't feel the children needed her. She would never allow a child to suffer for longer than they had to. She could, however have been unable, or unsure what to do without consulting Dumbledore. The fact that for the first time ever we see her unable to counter a curse is more suggestive of Dolores' bad reign at Hogwarts? This is perhaps related to ideas that Albus is something of a King at Hogworts and we all know that Kings have long been reputed to have special healing powers. But that's all largely off topic.
I doubt that the Ravenclaws will gang up and decide to hate the Gryffindors. Although in the past we have seen the Hufflepuffs decide they didn't like the Gryffindors it wasn't for something so normal and everyday like high school relationships. I can't see how Micheal Corner was particularly upset by his break up with Ginny if he was able to go out with Cho straight away, and simillarly with Cho. It seems a little odd that she can cry for a year about the death of an ex boyfriend while still seeing someone else and then almost immeadiately after dumping him seeing someone else... But again that's another post.
I'd say that I expect things to start getting much more muddled and confusing in the next book as a result of relationships, and it might have been interesting to see some initial friction as a result. But we're getting towards the end of the series and more than anything I expect unity to start shining through now that the ways have been reunited and things are much more out in the open, and isn't the next book supposed to be shorter than the previous two? So I'm not sure if there'll be room to fit all that in...?
Does anyone else see Hermione failing her Newts for what she considers to be a greater cause? It seems to me that she's been working up to it. From her rather skewed perspectives in first year that school was everything, to her somewhat more balanced view later and then her expression of a wish to dedicate her life to the house elves it seems that a lot has changed. Learning and booksmarts were everything to her when she first entered the wizarding world, and yet she was put into Gryfindor. Here she met two people who cared not a jot for learning unless it was to help them solve some problem or other. Over the years it seems that she has seen books and learning more and more in a simillar light. Instead of having books out of the library for light reading, and just happening to have something of use in them (Nicholas Flamell), she seeks out a book that she's read before and knows will help (Hogwarts; a History) and then actively spends time in the library looking up new information to help her cause (Buckbeaks trail) in book four we see something simillar with her search for spells to help Harry. Book five sees something of a lapse, with her picking up a book and dreamily reading it merely because it's there, but we also see her specifically not reading and then reading to spite a person rather than for the sheer enjoyment of it. The causes that she's been fighting for have gradually overshadowed her book learning... could this go to the extent where she will willingly fail exams, or miss them in order to help Harry, the Order or house elves?
(of course for all we know she could still read as much for pleasure as she did before, but it's become so much the norm for Harry that he's ceased to notice- but the point still stands that none of the books she might have read for pleasure have been mentioned as usefull since book two)
Gerald Costales - Apr 8, 2005 7:45 am (#1491 of 2486)
(re: post #1479)
"->Please watch the references. We do not discuss politics on the Forum. Thank you.<-" S.E. Jones
Yes, Ms Jones will do. I just couldn't help but think of Pres. Nixon when I read that post. Ex-Minister Fudge is a politician as well as Pres. Nixon was a politician. I had some doubts about the Nixon reference. But since it dealt with the issue of Fudge's credibility, I thought the comparison was appropriate. Fudge is as flawed and weak as any of us are at times. I acknowledge the good any politican does while recognizing that politicians as are flawed and weak as any of us. (Hey, we all put our robes on one arm at a time.)
(re: post #1483)
"I don't think Marietta will do anything to Hermione, or let her friends for that matter. I mean, they pointed out that the curse Hermione put on the paper that hit Marietta was a baddie; even Madame Pomfrey had trouble healing it. I think Hermione made it crystal clear to everyone in the DA that she's not one to mess with." S.E. Jones
I don't see JKR simply ignoring that Mariett was hit by a "baddie" of a curse/hex. I think the issue of Marietta's punishment is still unresolved. Did that punishment really justify the crime/misdeed?! ;-) GC
wwtMask - Apr 8, 2005 8:23 am (#1492 of 2486)
I don't think Hermione has a lot to worry about. True, she did put the hurt on a senior Ravenclaw, but Ravenclaw's are pragmatic. All of the Ravenclaw's know she's smart and knows her magic. Furthermore, the Ravenclaw's in the DA know she's at least 2 years ahead of her peers in magical knowledge and practical application of the magic (seeing as the Protean charm is NEWT standard). Finally, counting all of her adventures with Harry (the most impressive being facing DEs and surviving) and the fact that no one could break her jinx on Marietta, you'd have to be extremely, mind-numbingly, Crabbe-and-Goyle level thick to have a go at her. Maybe a year ago, before the DA, a duel with Hermione would've been a bit more fair, but she's battle tested now. And Hermione is smart enough to handle people in other ways besides dueling. The biggest reason they won't bother her is because Gryffendor will bury them. The loyalty runs far too deep in that house to allow others to attack one of them. No, I don't see Ravenclaws taking her on, it just doesn't make any good sense for them.
Mellilot, I really can't see Hermione getting less than O's on her NEWTs. She seemed to juggle her responsibilities pretty well in OotP and no doubt got all O's, so, even with all else that will be going on, I don't see Hermione getting behind on her studies. If she has to survive on 3 hours of sleep a day, she'll get her work and studying done in addition to whatever other adventures and concerns she has.
Tomoé - Apr 8, 2005 9:59 am (#1493 of 2486)
I never thought of massive cursing campain against Hermione, I thought more simple stuff like refusing to team up with her (I'm assuming the groupe will be mixed in the two last years, as they will chose only a handfull of subjects), saying cynical coment about her, refusing to talk to her, leaving the room after she entered if they don't have to stay. Nothing that would start a war between Gryffindor and Ravenclaw, but enough to bother Hermione.
And I don't think it will be all the Ravenclaws, just some of them.
wwtMask - Apr 8, 2005 10:02 am (#1494 of 2486)
I don't know...she's dealt with the worst that Rita Skeeter and Slytherin could dish out, so I can imagine that Hermione won't be too bothered by the Ravenclaw's either.
Tomoé - Apr 8, 2005 10:58 am (#1495 of 2486)
Good point, would it really bother Hermione if some Ravenclaws stop talking to her ....
Solitaire, Snuffles and anyone else interested, I started a thread named Marietta and Montague - What's behind their illnesses to talk about why Mme Pomfrey failled to cure Marietta and Montague. I hope the modarators will allow it to stay.
Aqualu Nifey - Apr 9, 2005 4:47 pm (#1496 of 2486)
I think some people she values not talking to her might upset her quite a bit more than a head on attack. Hermione's kinda touchy about those subjects. But maybe some random Ravenclaws wouldn't bother her a whole lot.
Moaning Turtle - Apr 18, 2005 3:30 pm (#1497 of 2486)
To previous messages: "I think Hermy is indeed afraid of Voldemort. Just because she's let the practical side of her personality take over and is refusing to let a name scare her, doesn't mean she isn't afraid of the person..... " (S.E Jones post #9)
definately agree - as quoted by Hermione in both CoS book and movie: "Fear of a name only increases fear of the thing itself" To which she is basically saying 'im scared of Voldemort, and if i say you know who, i will be even more scared'
Catherine - Apr 18, 2005 3:34 pm (#1498 of 2486)
Moaning Turtle, when did Hermione say "Fear of a name only increases fear of the thing itself" in the book CoS?
I don't recall that scene in CoS.
haymoni - Apr 18, 2005 3:46 pm (#1499 of 2486)
Dumbledore said it in the book.
Hermione, the best-line-taker, said it in the movie.
Weeny Owl - Apr 19, 2005 7:39 am (#1500 of 2486)
In the movie, she said it to Lucius Malfoy at the bookstore, but she nver said it in the books.
Dumbledore said it in the hospital wing at the end of the first book. He told Harry that he should always use the proper name for something.
I think Hermione's use of Voldemort's name is indicative of her Gryffindor bravery, but it's also part of her logical side.
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Choices - Apr 19, 2005 9:34 am (#1501 of 2486)
Hermione should really be like Harry when it comes to saying the name of Voldemort. Harry said because he was raised by Muggles, he just never knew he shouldn't say the name. Hermione too was raised by Muggles - how comes she doesn't like saying Voldemort's name? She probably never even heard of Voldemort until after she got her letter, and just doing a lot of reading before going to Hogwarts should not have made her any more leary of saying the name than Harry is. She doesn't have that deeply ingrained fear of Voldemort that Ron has who grew up hearing the horror stories associated with Voldemort. It just doesn't seem logical that she would fear to say the name so much more than Harry who has actually been harmed and deprived of his parents by the owner of that name.
Steve Newton - Apr 19, 2005 10:12 am (#1502 of 2486)
You might find this hard to believe, but, Hermione has read "Hagwarts, a History." I'm guessing that Voldemort is mentioned in there someplace.
Choices - Apr 19, 2005 10:23 am (#1503 of 2486)
I am sure she has read many books where Voldemort is mentioned, but I still think her fear of saying the name is not rational or logical and Hermione is definitely both of those things. To my knowledge, she has never personally encountered Voldemort (yes I know she has possibly "seen" him - Quirrell) or been harmed by him prior to the end of OotP where she is hurt by a DE's spell. She has lost no loved ones to him in the Muggle world. He is basically a faceless name to her, so it is strange to me that she would adopt the habit of not wanting to say the name when Harry, who has far more reason to fear Voldemort, has no such reluctance. Of course, she does get better about saying the name later in the series.
Solitaire - Apr 19, 2005 11:08 am (#1504 of 2486)
It is likely that Hermione initially learns to refer to Voldemort as "you-know-who" from reading, where she discovers that most Wizards fear to speak his name. Then, once she is actually at Hogwarts--where she continually hears Voldemort called "you-know-who" by just about everyone but Harry--she just goes along with it. After all, she has no "habit" ingrained one way or the other.
Solitaire
Moaning Turtle - Apr 19, 2005 1:58 pm (#1505 of 2486)
She didn't say it in the books?
Oops, my mistake. Well, i still think she is afraid of voldemort. I'll look for more references.
Sorry guys!
Weeny Owl - Apr 19, 2005 3:27 pm (#1506 of 2486)
She used Voldemort's name in OotP, but at first was hesitant.
haymoni - Apr 19, 2005 8:57 pm (#1507 of 2486)
I'm guessing Hermione read as much as she could before coming to Hogwarts to try and "catch up".
If she caught on that other wizards feared to say the name, she wouldn't say it either.
She was the only one of the Trio who recognized the Dark Mark and had sense enough to be concerned about it.
Miriam Huber - Apr 20, 2005 4:51 am (#1508 of 2486)
I suspect that even in books there is not written "Lord Voldemort" but "You-Know-Who". So even if she was not afraid of him at the beginning of PS, she might already have formed a habit of thinking/saying "You-Know-Who". AND I think Hermione is (was...) trying very hard to follow the rules and to fit in. She wouldn´t enter a new world where she has to prove herself, unsure of herself as she is (at least in PS), and break a major (unwritten, but strong) rule: NOT to say Lord Thingy´s name. Just my 2 knuts...
Mellilot Flower. - Apr 21, 2005 2:27 am (#1509 of 2486)
Think of a young girl, just found out that most things she thought of as impossible are quite possible, and she has the power to do them, reading up on this new world she encounters this "you-know-who" character. For all she knows at this point, calling his name could indeed call down all the fires of hell on her. She accepts that the books must be wise in not refering to his true name (or his current real name at least) and follows suit.
Also, one of my fears- admittadly one that I find easy to overcome - is of large black dogs, because when I was around Hermione's age I read a lot of books about spectral dogs, Grims, Padfoots and Bargeusts. I'm probably just as scared of seeing a Grim as Ron is, and the fear is quite as irrational. That fear came from books, from books that told stories I didn't fully believe. For someone like Hermione who has such faith in books a fear of something like a name would be very easy to catch.
But now she knows more, she's read more and encountered more she can overcome this new fear of the name much more easily than Ron.
Solitaire - Apr 21, 2005 7:12 am (#1510 of 2486)
I agree with Mellilot and Miriam. I also believe it would be much harder for Ron to get past all of this, having grown up in a Wizarding home. He would have heard the history of Voldemort all his life and known that two of his mom's family members had been killed by DEs. From birth he would have heard "you-know-who" and would probably have been admonished any time he actually said the name.
Harry's first knowledge of Voldemort comes from Hagrid, who is also afraid to say the name. I suppose I find it interesting that Harry seems able to say his name from the beginning--no superstitions attached--despite the fact that he seems to have been the most directly affected of the three.
Solitaire
Edit: Perhaps Harry's lack of squeamishness about speaking Voldemort's name is part of his weird connection with Voldemort??? Just a thought ...
Eponine - Apr 21, 2005 7:24 am (#1511 of 2486)
There's also the mention in PS/SS on the train of Harry's feelings about the name.
'He was starting to get a prickle of fear every time You-Know-Who was mentioned. He supposed this was all part of entering the magical world, but it had been a lot more comfortable saying 'Voldemort' without worrying.' UK paperback, p 119
People often pick up on the prevailing attitude of those around them. Hermione saw that most witches and wizards were frightened of the name, and it just rubbed off on her. She had done the research and knew what he was capable of. Her attitude about saying the name likely resulted from a combination of both these things.
For all she knows at this point, calling his name could indeed call down all the fires of hell on her. She accepts that the books must be wise in not refering to his true name (or his current real name at least) and follows suit. - Melliot Flower
This is also true. She has no idea of the consequences that could result from it.
After a couple of years of being surrounded by people who practically begin cowering at the mention of the name, she probably has absorbed that attitude into herself. It's only when she starts realizing that the threat from Voldemort is real and imminent that she begins to have a more sensible approach about his name.
wwtMask - Apr 21, 2005 11:19 am (#1512 of 2486)
I liken her attitude to the general fear of snakes and spiders that people have. It's not rational to be afraid of all snakes and spiders because the majority of them are not poisonous or aggressive towards people. Our attitudes towards these creatures are shaped by our culture in which bad experiences in the past perpetuate the fear. In a sense, it's not totally irrational because the fear will, at the least, make sure that we respect the power of truly deadly spiders and snakes, but it also makes us kill harmless and useful creatures. We should not be surprised that Hermione came to fear Voldemort's name because she, more than most people her age, knows the details of what he and his followers did. Grown wizards that are more powerful than she is are afraid of Voldemort. A wizard saying his name is akin to an arachnaphobe picking up a tarantula. When a wizard says Voldemort's name, he may still fear what Voldemort can do, but he does not fear Voldemort himself.
Also, I think we should give Ron more credit on the name thing. He has a primal fear that has to be defeated, one that has been nurtured by wizard society since his birth. He has shown that he has the courage to deal with a situation where he has to face something he fears in books 2 and 5. I think that, unlike with Hermione, saying Voldemort's name will be the final step in destroying his fear of the Dark Lord.
Ludicrous Patents Office - Apr 22, 2005 6:35 pm (#1513 of 2486)
The power of a name is very important in folklore and mythology. Hermione would understand that. Using Voldemort's name is like calling on the dark powers he represents. It seems to me people are afraid to use it because it brings them to the attention of the Dark Lord and the Dark Powers.
In OoP Hermione finds the courage to say "Voldemort". It amuses me that she spends time harping on Ron for the same thing she was only recently afraid to do. LPO
Gerald Costales - Apr 25, 2005 5:52 am (#1514 of 2486)
After hitting Draco, I don't see Hermione backing off anything. Hermione’s use of Voldermort's name is a small issue. But, Hermione's use of Voldermort's name just shows the courage behind Hermione's determination. It shows Hermione’s strength of conviction.
Using a name implies having power over someone. That is why naming someone is so important in Myth. To name someone or something means you have Power over them. Besides Voldermort is a “Nome de Guerre”. Soldiers sometimes take on false names to protect their families. Tom Riddle doesn’t want to protect the Riddle family. But, neither does Voldermort want Tom Riddle’s past to exist. (The Riddle family may have had some hidden wealth that even Voldermort needed when he was just a poor orphaned Tom Riddle.) Dumbledore using Tom Riddle’s name is a recognition of who Voldermort truly is an orphaned Half-Blood.
Harry needs a strong right hand person. My point being Ron is too hesitant and steeped in Witch lore - not using Voldermort’s name, the Grim, etc. - to be of service to Harry. Hermione is smarter than Ron. And there is a latent competitiveness between Harry and Ron.
That’s right - Who gets Hermione! OH OH. I’ve called down the fires of the Monitors. Hey! I hate posting in the “Ship” thread. ;-) GC
Ludicrous Patents Office - Apr 25, 2005 6:41 pm (#1515 of 2486)
GC I agree Hermione makes a much better "right hand person" She is coming into her own. Ron has started too also. I think now that Gred and Forge are gone we will see a lot more of Ron. Hermione has no one to compete with. She is the smartest witch of her age. She is also older and will mature quicker than Ron and Harry.
Dumbledore is also reminding Tom who the teacher is. Most people carry a certain amount of respect (sometimes unwillingly) for former teachers. A part of you is always the child in their presence. LPO
Muggle Doctor - Apr 25, 2005 7:35 pm (#1516 of 2486)
And it's not just Hermione who has a fear of Voldemort. Prophecy aside, anyone from Winky to Dumbledore who faced up against him would be a fool not to be a little bit afraid that they weren't going to come out alive. The only one I can think of who wouldn't be scared of Voldemort is Gilderoy Lockhart (prior to his self-obliviation), but we KNOW he's a fool.
Liz Mann - May 31, 2005 5:32 am (#1517 of 2486)
The only one I can think of who wouldn't be scared of Voldemort is Gilderoy Lockhart (prior to his self-obliviation), but we KNOW he's a fool.
I don't agree with that. I think Lockhart would be extremely afraid of Voldemort. He knows that all the things he flaunts are false and that he's not as competant as he pretends to be. After all, if he really thought he could do anything, he would have actually have been trying to find out where the Chamber of Secrets is rather than simply boasting that he is. And when Ron and Harry took him there he would have gone in willingly because he would have been thinking, "No monster of Slytherin is any match for me!" But he didn't because he knew he couldn't fight and he was a coward. He would never face Voldemort, just try and take the credit for the person who did.
As for saying Voldemort's name, I think Hermione simply decided that not using the name was silly. It's not that she's braver than Ron or anything, just that she's more sensible. And when she first started using the name, she would stammer it, which shows that she is still afraid but forcing herself to use it. As for her still harping on at Ron for not using it, I think that's just to do with the kind of relationship they have. Hermione seems to like criticising Ron.
GryffEndora - May 31, 2005 10:22 am (#1518 of 2486)
Liz Mann - I agree with you in part about why Hermione started saying the name but I also think she finally realized that calling him "you know who" and flinching every time Harry used his name was upsetting Harry and making him more agitated, so she tried to use the name to help calm Harry's nerves. I also think that's why she is so frustrated with Ron later when he still can't bring himself to say it. Either she has told him her theory and he can't do it or she is frustrated at another thing Ron can't figure out with his teaspoon-sized emotional range. I hope that makes sense.
frogface - May 31, 2005 10:33 am (#1519 of 2486)
I think she also does it to display her confidence in both Harry and Dumbledore. They are the only two people at Hogwarts who seem to ever say his name and during this time I think she wants Harry to know she's 100% behind him, and she shows him by following his lead. Also I think that she could never stand knowing deep down that Harry was being more sensible on the matter than her!
Liz Mann - May 31, 2005 10:40 am (#1520 of 2486)
It could also have been to shock him into silence. He was shouting at them the first time she said it and he calmed down afterwards.
Good Evans - May 31, 2005 11:41 am (#1521 of 2486)
I never understood why Hermione was afraid of saying LV's name anyway. She had never heard of him until she got her letter about hogwarts and started her research. She is sensible ... it really does not make sense, unless she just wanted to "fit in" with the others, and not make a gaff. I can understand the "you know who" as the books would have said that most people were afraid to use his name and reffered to him in this way... but to flinch and to stutter over his name, or when Harry used it freely I would have expected her to say - "well I am glad that you say his name as it all seems a bit silly to me this not sayig his name business" . This was one thing that just seemed a bit out of character with her sensible demeanour.
wwtMask - May 31, 2005 12:04 pm (#1522 of 2486)
I don't think her acquired fear of saying Voldemort was out of character at all. No matter how irrational we may consider it to be, in the WW, it's a cultural norm and it would probably be weird if she didn't adopt it. Furthermore, considering that other "sensible" people who are likely role models for Hermione (Molly and Minerva) won't say the name either, is her fear really all that silly? This is really a case of cultural assimilation and it's very hard to fault Hermione for fitting in. The fear she had was taught and instilled into every Muggle-born the moment they stepped into the WW, from the textbooks to the newspapers to the teachers. Even Harry was headed in that direction until he had the courage to face Voldemort again.
Liz Mann - May 31, 2005 2:56 pm (#1523 of 2486)
In Philosopher's Stone when Harry meets Ron on the train, there's a passage that says:
"...and until Hagrid told me, I didn't know anything about being a wizard or about my parents or Voldemort..."
Ron gasped.
"What?" said Harry.
"You said You-Know-Who's name!" said Ron, sounding both shocked and impressed. "I'd have thought you of all people - "
"I'm not trying to be brave or anything, saying his name," said Harry. "I just never knew you shouldn't."
Hermione on the other hand would have known because of all her background reading. She'd probably found out about all the terrible things he'd done in the same books in which she found out about Harry.
Tomoé - Ju n 1, 2005 7:01 am (#1524 of 2486)
Maybe she even read stories of people who have tell the name and were found dead the next morning, with their whole family AKed, a dark mark floating above the house ...
Muggle Doctor - Ju n 1, 2005 7:08 am (#1525 of 2486)
A while ago, I said: The only one I can think of who wouldn't be scared of Voldemort is Gilderoy Lockhart (prior to his self-obliviation), but we KNOW he's a fool.
And Liz Mann replied, I don't agree with that.
Liz is right. I might amend my statement to say that he would (once) have been the only man stupid enough to pretend not to be scared of LV.
Everyone else alive fears him with good reason, even those who (like Dumbledore) can fight him to a standstill and especially those who work for him. Admitting you're scared of Voldemort doesn't lose you any brownie points; it probably adds them.
librarian314 - Ju n 1, 2005 11:25 am (#1526 of 2486)
Hey all!
I think Hermione should cut Ron some slack about using Voldemort's name. His use of "You-Know-Who" is more personal. Voldemort (or his supporters) killed his uncles (Molly's brothers); she's probably forbidden the family from mentioning their murderer's name. Would you go against one of Molly's edicts?
I sort of envision the whole family not saying Voldemort at first because it upset Molly. It gradually grew into, "Don't say that name, it makes Mom cry."
*michelle the librarian**
Liz Mann - Ju n 1, 2005 2:08 pm (#1527 of 2486)
That's a good point, librarian314. Harry's suffered losses from Voldemort as well, but he didn't know about it before he came to Hogwarts, so the story of a terrible, terrible man murdering his parents hasn't been impressed on him all his life, like Ron might have had impressed on him by his parents after Molly's brothers were killed. And besides that, Harry didn't make the final decision to call Voldemort by his name until after he'd met him (talking to Hagrid in the hospital wing afterwards). Facing your fears and all that. Ron has never faced Voldemort. Maybe if he did Voldemort would become an actual person with a face and a voice and not a childhood horror story. Does that make sense?
Regan of Gong - Ju n 1, 2005 11:41 pm (#1528 of 2486)
I think it makes sense. Good catch!
Ludicrous Patents Office - Ju n 2, 2005 8:47 pm (#1529 of 2486)
Liz I agree that not saying Voldemort's name was probably impressed on Ron and every wizarding child from early on. I'm not sure how much Ron knows about Molly's brothers. They are never mentioned by her children's generation. They do not get the attention other Hogwarts students get when the Death Eaters "escaped." Names are very powerful. I think JKR has added her twist on an age old cultural legacy. LPO
ellebell86 - Ju n 7, 2005 6:16 am (#1530 of 2486)
Another important thing to notice is that the DE's don't even say his name. They call him the Dark Lord. He is so cruel and so powerful that even his closest followers don't speak his name. In CoS, Tom says that some of his closest friends had already started calling his by Lord Voldermort. So at some point it was the name used by his supporters but his brutality against his own followers could have changed that. Dumbledore calls him Tom in such a casual way as they are dueling that it enrages him. I think that this is important because Tom is a half-blood and it reminds him that even after getting a new body, he is still and half-blood because he used his father's bone and Harry's blood. So back to Hermione, I think that she was not just trying to fit in, but rather that she was genuinely scared because the witches she looks up to were terrified (McGonagall and Molly) and she reads so much that she probably knows more about what Voldie did and was capable of that just about any other student even though she was muggle born. Ron grew up in a household with fear of Voldie already in place but he did not live through the terrible times when he was in power. I wonder how it originally started that people all over refused to use his name. Maybe the Daily Prophet or something.
Solitaire - Ju n 7, 2005 7:29 am (#1531 of 2486)
I believe LPO is correct ... names are powerful. No one would have wanted to "invoke" the notice of Voldemort by speaking his name. By calling Voldemort "Tom," Dumbledore reminds him of his own humble beginnings, of the "mortal humanity" he has been so desperate to shed. I wonder ... does calling him "Tom" weaken him in some way?
As for Hermione, I think you are correct, ellebell. Hermione simply has read as much as she is able to get her hands on, she pays close attention to everything, and she probably knows more than even the Wizarding kids who have come from long generations of Wizarding families.
Solitaire
Choices - Ju n 7, 2005 8:48 am (#1532 of 2486)
People used to come up with alternate names for the Devil because they thought if they spoke his name, he would appear. That's where the phrase "speak of the Devil" comes from - when you are talking about someone and they turn up or call you, then you say "Well, speak of the Devil...... and he appears." Hermione is so practical and "no nonsense" that it is odd she would fall into the habit of not speaking Voldemort's name and seem so unnerved when someone dares to say it. Being raised a Muggle and not knowing about Voldemort until probably just before she started Hogwarts, it seems she got into the habit of fearing and not saying the name awfully quick. Usually habits take a fairly long time to form. I doubt she learned it from other wizard children because she probably wasn't around any until she came to Hogwarts and surely Voldemort is not a common topic of conversation among the kids. She must have picked it up simply from reading and I wouldn't think that would cause her to be so reluctant to say "Voldemort".....but evidently we are supposed to think it did.
Weeny Owl - Ju n 7, 2005 10:27 am (#1533 of 2486)
From the Lexicon: The rearranged letters spelled "I AM LORD VOLDEMORT." It was a name he hoped "wizards everywhere would one day fear to speak," when he became the "greatest sorcerer in the world."
That was in CoS, and from the first book we learned that Hermione already knew about Harry because she had read about him in a number of books.
She wants to fit in so badly that it may not be fear of Voldemort as much as fear of offending the very people she wants to accept her. By OotP she certainly isn't afraid that Ron and Harry won't accept her, so calling Voldemort by his name isn't a big deal.
Liz Mann - Ju n 7, 2005 1:53 pm (#1534 of 2486)
As you said, Weeny Owl, she had already read about Harry and she would definately have read about Voldemort in the same books because they would have had to have said what Harry did to get in the book. She'd probably read about all the things Voldemort had done and, being only an eleven year old, maybe it scared her. Or maybe she'd already met a pure-blood wizard on the train before Harry and Ron, spoke the name in front of them, and they had a go at her, "No! Don't say his name! He'll hear you!" Possibly he then told her all the things that wizarding children are told about him by their parents and that made Hermione scared. In fact, we know she met a pure-blood before Harry and Ron - Neville.
Ludicrous Patents Office - Ju n 10, 2005 11:26 am (#1535 of 2486)
Hermione read everything she could about the Wizarding world before she came to Hogwarts. She would work hard to assimilate her new culture. She would respect what she learned. That included not saying the name. It has been mentioned several times only very powerful Witches and Wizards say Voldemort's name. Maybe Hermione is getting powerful and confident enough to break the taboo against saying his name. She is among a very small minority that uses Voldemort's name. Hope her bravery does not get her into trouble! LPO
Czarina II - Ju n 10, 2005 6:26 pm (#1536 of 2486)
Hermione entered the wizarding world in much the same way an immigrant or convert enters a new culture. She is eager to fit in and learn how to do so. If she learns that wizards don't say "Voldemort", she tries best not to do so either, less she be branded an ignorant mudblood. Then, as she grows more accustomed to her new life and surroundings, she too comes to fear the name "Voldemort" because she comes to believe in its evil and mystique. (It is a bit like a curse word.) By the fifth book, she understands that the name has a lot of power, but not in the way she has initially thought: the name has MORE power when unspoken than when spoken. Thus, she uses it carefully and sparingly.
ellebell86 - Ju n 10, 2005 8:13 pm (#1537 of 2486)
Harry also changed from saying Voldermort to You-Know-Who. "Harry turned this news over in his mind. He was starting to get a prickle of fear every time You-Know-Who was mentioned. He supposed this was all part of entering the magical world, but it had been a lotmore comfortable saying "Voldermort" without worrying." SS pg 107.
Gerald Costales - Ju n 19, 2005 9:32 am (#1538 of 2486)
Just to change the subject. I think Hermione using Voldermort's name is important but let's move on. Okay :-)!!!!!
I’m still bothered by the ending of Book 5. In particular the situation with Marietta Edgecomb and her Purple Pimples. Don't you think that Hermione needs to get some reprimand for her hex or curse? I know this subject is very touchy but Hermione is not above the rules at Hogwarts.
Even some token punishment needs to be handed out by MacGonagall. For example -
. . . . . . . . . . “Now, Hermione do be careful with your hexes. That Edgecomb girl is still sporting those Purple Pimples.”
. . . . . . . . . . “But, Professor MacGonagall. Marietta deserved it!!! That sneaky traitor!!!!!
. . . . . . . . . . “Now, enough is enough!!! Time to move on, it’s a new year. You can’t have a 7th year student covering her face all year. Mine you Marietta is a SNEAK and all. But, we’ll talk to her about talking and trusting people like Dolores. (There is slight smile of satisfaction on MacGonagall face now.) I’m sure after a Summer of Purple Pimples, even Ms Edgecomb has seen the error of her ways.”
. . . . . . . . . . “Yes, Professor you’re right. I’ll correct the problem straight away.”
. . . . . . . . . . “Just between you and me. (Speaking in a whisper.) I think that your Hexed Parchment was just brilliant. Something even I would have thought of. Fifty points for Gryffindor!!!!!”
Isn’t it July 16th yet!!!!! ;-) GC
PS Not really much of a punishment. But you should have seen the pouty face Hermione had while being dressed down by MacGonagall. ;-) GC
PPS Of course. Dumbledore would have given Hermione a lemon sherbert after reprimanding Herimone and we all know how Hermione hates sweets. Hermione parents are both Dentists mine you. ;-) GC
Solitaire - Ju n 19, 2005 9:49 am (#1539 of 2486)
I'm still fascinated and amused that the great Umbridge (she thought she was great!) was never able to find a counter-jinx for Marietta's malady. This means she was outsmarted by a 16-year-old, Muggle-born, student Witch (more than once). Yes, I wonder if Umbridge will attempt, in HBP, to even the score with Hermione ...
Solitaire
Liz Mann - Ju n 19, 2005 1:16 pm (#1540 of 2486)
I'm still surprised Hermione would do such a thing as that curse or hex (but then she was extremely edgy in this book). But I'd be extremely shocked if Hermione Granger of all people would make the curse permanant. By the time Marietta comes back to school after the summer the spots will probably be all gone. She probably timed it so the curse would last until the holidays, so that the real punishment would be the humiliation, and then they disappear once she gets home.
Umbridge won't be at Hogwarts in the next book. Dumbledore told Fudge to remove her immediately.
frogface - Ju n 19, 2005 3:01 pm (#1541 of 2486)
Umbridge won't be at Hogwarts no. But that doesn't mean she'll be absent from the story. I'll be very surprised if we've seen the last of her.
I think someone does need to have a good talk with Hermione. Shes essentially good natured most of the time, and very clever and wise. But shes also ever so slightly snobbish. I think she needs to consider that what she thinks its always right a little more often than she seems to do.
Solitaire - Ju n 19, 2005 3:23 pm (#1542 of 2486)
I agree in part, at least, with frogface. Umbridge may not be at Hogwarts, but I'm not sure we've seen the last of her just yet. Possibly she will turn up as a roommate of Lockhart's ... in St. Mungo's.
About Hermione ... I do not see her as snobbish, really. In some ways, I think she relates to the House-Elves, because some consider her a second-class citizen in the magical world. But I do hope either Dumbledore or McGonagall will sit her down and give her the facts of House-Elf life. She respects both of them enormously, and I feel they are the only ones who can truly make her understand what should and should not be attempted with regard to the proper treatment of House-Elves.
Solitaire
Weeny Owl - Ju n 19, 2005 4:22 pm (#1543 of 2486)
My only problem with Hermione using such a hex for members of the DA is that she should have explained a bit more how serious their commitment was.
I don't see that she needs to be punished at all, but I do think someone should talk to her about how she went about it.
Ludicrous Patents Office - Ju n 19, 2005 5:03 pm (#1544 of 2486)
How do we know she has not been talked to? She has kept things from Harry and Ron before. Of course there wasn't much time for McGonagall to speak to her. People were pretty busy with Lord Voldemort returning. After the MOM battle Hermione was in no condition to be punished. She was in the hospital wing for some time. Marietta is disfigured not injured. I'm sure there could have been more painful hexes put on the parchment. LPO
Emiko - Ju n 19, 2005 7:16 pm (#1545 of 2486)
I don't think Hermione or anyone else needed to explain how serious the DA's commitment was. Certainly explusion from Hogwarts suggests that it was serious, and didn't Hermione say that she put a hex on the paper? Did she need to specify? Sometimes the imagination of punishment is the best deterrent. I really don't have pity for Marietta, she was willing to sacrifice the entire group of DAs for herself (and she wasn't really in that much trouble).
Weeny Owl - Ju n 19, 2005 8:22 pm (#1546 of 2486)
No, she didn't say she had put a hex on the paper. She DID say, however, that anyone who chose to sign it was promising not to talk to anyone about the group, but she didn't specify what would happen if they did.
Steve Newton - Ju n 20, 2005 5:39 am (#1547 of 2486)
And, nobody asked.
wwtMask - Ju n 20, 2005 6:30 am (#1548 of 2486)
What I would find more interesting is if Hermione, for a change, actually did not know the counter-jinx!
As far as the parchment goes, I think we worked that subject over pretty thoroughly on the (sadly) closed Marietta Edgecombe thread. Whether you think Hermione acted correctly, you have to admit that anyone who signed the parchment without asking questions was in no position to complain about any curses. At this point in their lives as wizards, these kids should've been wary of almost everything's magical properties. This goes double for them, since they were going to be involved in a secret and unapproved group that was working against the oppression of the Ministry.
Mrs Brisbee - Ju n 20, 2005 7:02 am (#1549 of 2486)
I tend to think of the hex on the parchment as a necessary precaution, and I agree with wwtMask that the kids who signed learned a valuable lesson about questioning whatever they put their signatures to. However, I hope that lesson didn't come at the price of eroding future trust in Hermione. One of the major themes of OotP was trust and friendship, and how those are needed if the wizarding world is to defeat Voldemort. I think Hermione would have done better to tell them all the exact terms of the contract they signed.
librarian314 - Ju n 20, 2005 7:23 am (#1550 of 2486)
Hey all!
I hope someone (Lupin perhaps?) does take the time to chat with Hermione about her jinxing of the parchment, not because that was wrong, but the fact that it wasn't explained explicitly. (i.e. If you have signed this parchment and you squeal, you will be jinxed.) That's the part that she needs to work on or have channeled into more appropriate activities. (Spy anyone?)
I also see this episode as reinforcing something that we readers know but may not have been paying attention to, the fact that not only is Hermione book smart but can do complicated magic on numerous fronts. So far we've seen her advanced potion making skills, charms, and transfigurations. Now, members of other houses and years have seen her skills and know that she is not only the top of her year, but better than many of the students older than she is.
*michelle the librarian**
Hermione should really be like Harry when it comes to saying the name of Voldemort. Harry said because he was raised by Muggles, he just never knew he shouldn't say the name. Hermione too was raised by Muggles - how comes she doesn't like saying Voldemort's name? She probably never even heard of Voldemort until after she got her letter, and just doing a lot of reading before going to Hogwarts should not have made her any more leary of saying the name than Harry is. She doesn't have that deeply ingrained fear of Voldemort that Ron has who grew up hearing the horror stories associated with Voldemort. It just doesn't seem logical that she would fear to say the name so much more than Harry who has actually been harmed and deprived of his parents by the owner of that name.
Steve Newton - Apr 19, 2005 10:12 am (#1502 of 2486)
You might find this hard to believe, but, Hermione has read "Hagwarts, a History." I'm guessing that Voldemort is mentioned in there someplace.
Choices - Apr 19, 2005 10:23 am (#1503 of 2486)
I am sure she has read many books where Voldemort is mentioned, but I still think her fear of saying the name is not rational or logical and Hermione is definitely both of those things. To my knowledge, she has never personally encountered Voldemort (yes I know she has possibly "seen" him - Quirrell) or been harmed by him prior to the end of OotP where she is hurt by a DE's spell. She has lost no loved ones to him in the Muggle world. He is basically a faceless name to her, so it is strange to me that she would adopt the habit of not wanting to say the name when Harry, who has far more reason to fear Voldemort, has no such reluctance. Of course, she does get better about saying the name later in the series.
Solitaire - Apr 19, 2005 11:08 am (#1504 of 2486)
It is likely that Hermione initially learns to refer to Voldemort as "you-know-who" from reading, where she discovers that most Wizards fear to speak his name. Then, once she is actually at Hogwarts--where she continually hears Voldemort called "you-know-who" by just about everyone but Harry--she just goes along with it. After all, she has no "habit" ingrained one way or the other.
Solitaire
Moaning Turtle - Apr 19, 2005 1:58 pm (#1505 of 2486)
She didn't say it in the books?
Oops, my mistake. Well, i still think she is afraid of voldemort. I'll look for more references.
Sorry guys!
Weeny Owl - Apr 19, 2005 3:27 pm (#1506 of 2486)
She used Voldemort's name in OotP, but at first was hesitant.
haymoni - Apr 19, 2005 8:57 pm (#1507 of 2486)
I'm guessing Hermione read as much as she could before coming to Hogwarts to try and "catch up".
If she caught on that other wizards feared to say the name, she wouldn't say it either.
She was the only one of the Trio who recognized the Dark Mark and had sense enough to be concerned about it.
Miriam Huber - Apr 20, 2005 4:51 am (#1508 of 2486)
I suspect that even in books there is not written "Lord Voldemort" but "You-Know-Who". So even if she was not afraid of him at the beginning of PS, she might already have formed a habit of thinking/saying "You-Know-Who". AND I think Hermione is (was...) trying very hard to follow the rules and to fit in. She wouldn´t enter a new world where she has to prove herself, unsure of herself as she is (at least in PS), and break a major (unwritten, but strong) rule: NOT to say Lord Thingy´s name. Just my 2 knuts...
Mellilot Flower. - Apr 21, 2005 2:27 am (#1509 of 2486)
Think of a young girl, just found out that most things she thought of as impossible are quite possible, and she has the power to do them, reading up on this new world she encounters this "you-know-who" character. For all she knows at this point, calling his name could indeed call down all the fires of hell on her. She accepts that the books must be wise in not refering to his true name (or his current real name at least) and follows suit.
Also, one of my fears- admittadly one that I find easy to overcome - is of large black dogs, because when I was around Hermione's age I read a lot of books about spectral dogs, Grims, Padfoots and Bargeusts. I'm probably just as scared of seeing a Grim as Ron is, and the fear is quite as irrational. That fear came from books, from books that told stories I didn't fully believe. For someone like Hermione who has such faith in books a fear of something like a name would be very easy to catch.
But now she knows more, she's read more and encountered more she can overcome this new fear of the name much more easily than Ron.
Solitaire - Apr 21, 2005 7:12 am (#1510 of 2486)
I agree with Mellilot and Miriam. I also believe it would be much harder for Ron to get past all of this, having grown up in a Wizarding home. He would have heard the history of Voldemort all his life and known that two of his mom's family members had been killed by DEs. From birth he would have heard "you-know-who" and would probably have been admonished any time he actually said the name.
Harry's first knowledge of Voldemort comes from Hagrid, who is also afraid to say the name. I suppose I find it interesting that Harry seems able to say his name from the beginning--no superstitions attached--despite the fact that he seems to have been the most directly affected of the three.
Solitaire
Edit: Perhaps Harry's lack of squeamishness about speaking Voldemort's name is part of his weird connection with Voldemort??? Just a thought ...
Eponine - Apr 21, 2005 7:24 am (#1511 of 2486)
There's also the mention in PS/SS on the train of Harry's feelings about the name.
'He was starting to get a prickle of fear every time You-Know-Who was mentioned. He supposed this was all part of entering the magical world, but it had been a lot more comfortable saying 'Voldemort' without worrying.' UK paperback, p 119
People often pick up on the prevailing attitude of those around them. Hermione saw that most witches and wizards were frightened of the name, and it just rubbed off on her. She had done the research and knew what he was capable of. Her attitude about saying the name likely resulted from a combination of both these things.
For all she knows at this point, calling his name could indeed call down all the fires of hell on her. She accepts that the books must be wise in not refering to his true name (or his current real name at least) and follows suit. - Melliot Flower
This is also true. She has no idea of the consequences that could result from it.
After a couple of years of being surrounded by people who practically begin cowering at the mention of the name, she probably has absorbed that attitude into herself. It's only when she starts realizing that the threat from Voldemort is real and imminent that she begins to have a more sensible approach about his name.
wwtMask - Apr 21, 2005 11:19 am (#1512 of 2486)
I liken her attitude to the general fear of snakes and spiders that people have. It's not rational to be afraid of all snakes and spiders because the majority of them are not poisonous or aggressive towards people. Our attitudes towards these creatures are shaped by our culture in which bad experiences in the past perpetuate the fear. In a sense, it's not totally irrational because the fear will, at the least, make sure that we respect the power of truly deadly spiders and snakes, but it also makes us kill harmless and useful creatures. We should not be surprised that Hermione came to fear Voldemort's name because she, more than most people her age, knows the details of what he and his followers did. Grown wizards that are more powerful than she is are afraid of Voldemort. A wizard saying his name is akin to an arachnaphobe picking up a tarantula. When a wizard says Voldemort's name, he may still fear what Voldemort can do, but he does not fear Voldemort himself.
Also, I think we should give Ron more credit on the name thing. He has a primal fear that has to be defeated, one that has been nurtured by wizard society since his birth. He has shown that he has the courage to deal with a situation where he has to face something he fears in books 2 and 5. I think that, unlike with Hermione, saying Voldemort's name will be the final step in destroying his fear of the Dark Lord.
Ludicrous Patents Office - Apr 22, 2005 6:35 pm (#1513 of 2486)
The power of a name is very important in folklore and mythology. Hermione would understand that. Using Voldemort's name is like calling on the dark powers he represents. It seems to me people are afraid to use it because it brings them to the attention of the Dark Lord and the Dark Powers.
In OoP Hermione finds the courage to say "Voldemort". It amuses me that she spends time harping on Ron for the same thing she was only recently afraid to do. LPO
Gerald Costales - Apr 25, 2005 5:52 am (#1514 of 2486)
After hitting Draco, I don't see Hermione backing off anything. Hermione’s use of Voldermort's name is a small issue. But, Hermione's use of Voldermort's name just shows the courage behind Hermione's determination. It shows Hermione’s strength of conviction.
Using a name implies having power over someone. That is why naming someone is so important in Myth. To name someone or something means you have Power over them. Besides Voldermort is a “Nome de Guerre”. Soldiers sometimes take on false names to protect their families. Tom Riddle doesn’t want to protect the Riddle family. But, neither does Voldermort want Tom Riddle’s past to exist. (The Riddle family may have had some hidden wealth that even Voldermort needed when he was just a poor orphaned Tom Riddle.) Dumbledore using Tom Riddle’s name is a recognition of who Voldermort truly is an orphaned Half-Blood.
Harry needs a strong right hand person. My point being Ron is too hesitant and steeped in Witch lore - not using Voldermort’s name, the Grim, etc. - to be of service to Harry. Hermione is smarter than Ron. And there is a latent competitiveness between Harry and Ron.
That’s right - Who gets Hermione! OH OH. I’ve called down the fires of the Monitors. Hey! I hate posting in the “Ship” thread. ;-) GC
Ludicrous Patents Office - Apr 25, 2005 6:41 pm (#1515 of 2486)
GC I agree Hermione makes a much better "right hand person" She is coming into her own. Ron has started too also. I think now that Gred and Forge are gone we will see a lot more of Ron. Hermione has no one to compete with. She is the smartest witch of her age. She is also older and will mature quicker than Ron and Harry.
Dumbledore is also reminding Tom who the teacher is. Most people carry a certain amount of respect (sometimes unwillingly) for former teachers. A part of you is always the child in their presence. LPO
Muggle Doctor - Apr 25, 2005 7:35 pm (#1516 of 2486)
And it's not just Hermione who has a fear of Voldemort. Prophecy aside, anyone from Winky to Dumbledore who faced up against him would be a fool not to be a little bit afraid that they weren't going to come out alive. The only one I can think of who wouldn't be scared of Voldemort is Gilderoy Lockhart (prior to his self-obliviation), but we KNOW he's a fool.
Liz Mann - May 31, 2005 5:32 am (#1517 of 2486)
The only one I can think of who wouldn't be scared of Voldemort is Gilderoy Lockhart (prior to his self-obliviation), but we KNOW he's a fool.
I don't agree with that. I think Lockhart would be extremely afraid of Voldemort. He knows that all the things he flaunts are false and that he's not as competant as he pretends to be. After all, if he really thought he could do anything, he would have actually have been trying to find out where the Chamber of Secrets is rather than simply boasting that he is. And when Ron and Harry took him there he would have gone in willingly because he would have been thinking, "No monster of Slytherin is any match for me!" But he didn't because he knew he couldn't fight and he was a coward. He would never face Voldemort, just try and take the credit for the person who did.
As for saying Voldemort's name, I think Hermione simply decided that not using the name was silly. It's not that she's braver than Ron or anything, just that she's more sensible. And when she first started using the name, she would stammer it, which shows that she is still afraid but forcing herself to use it. As for her still harping on at Ron for not using it, I think that's just to do with the kind of relationship they have. Hermione seems to like criticising Ron.
GryffEndora - May 31, 2005 10:22 am (#1518 of 2486)
Liz Mann - I agree with you in part about why Hermione started saying the name but I also think she finally realized that calling him "you know who" and flinching every time Harry used his name was upsetting Harry and making him more agitated, so she tried to use the name to help calm Harry's nerves. I also think that's why she is so frustrated with Ron later when he still can't bring himself to say it. Either she has told him her theory and he can't do it or she is frustrated at another thing Ron can't figure out with his teaspoon-sized emotional range. I hope that makes sense.
frogface - May 31, 2005 10:33 am (#1519 of 2486)
I think she also does it to display her confidence in both Harry and Dumbledore. They are the only two people at Hogwarts who seem to ever say his name and during this time I think she wants Harry to know she's 100% behind him, and she shows him by following his lead. Also I think that she could never stand knowing deep down that Harry was being more sensible on the matter than her!
Liz Mann - May 31, 2005 10:40 am (#1520 of 2486)
It could also have been to shock him into silence. He was shouting at them the first time she said it and he calmed down afterwards.
Good Evans - May 31, 2005 11:41 am (#1521 of 2486)
I never understood why Hermione was afraid of saying LV's name anyway. She had never heard of him until she got her letter about hogwarts and started her research. She is sensible ... it really does not make sense, unless she just wanted to "fit in" with the others, and not make a gaff. I can understand the "you know who" as the books would have said that most people were afraid to use his name and reffered to him in this way... but to flinch and to stutter over his name, or when Harry used it freely I would have expected her to say - "well I am glad that you say his name as it all seems a bit silly to me this not sayig his name business" . This was one thing that just seemed a bit out of character with her sensible demeanour.
wwtMask - May 31, 2005 12:04 pm (#1522 of 2486)
I don't think her acquired fear of saying Voldemort was out of character at all. No matter how irrational we may consider it to be, in the WW, it's a cultural norm and it would probably be weird if she didn't adopt it. Furthermore, considering that other "sensible" people who are likely role models for Hermione (Molly and Minerva) won't say the name either, is her fear really all that silly? This is really a case of cultural assimilation and it's very hard to fault Hermione for fitting in. The fear she had was taught and instilled into every Muggle-born the moment they stepped into the WW, from the textbooks to the newspapers to the teachers. Even Harry was headed in that direction until he had the courage to face Voldemort again.
Liz Mann - May 31, 2005 2:56 pm (#1523 of 2486)
In Philosopher's Stone when Harry meets Ron on the train, there's a passage that says:
"...and until Hagrid told me, I didn't know anything about being a wizard or about my parents or Voldemort..."
Ron gasped.
"What?" said Harry.
"You said You-Know-Who's name!" said Ron, sounding both shocked and impressed. "I'd have thought you of all people - "
"I'm not trying to be brave or anything, saying his name," said Harry. "I just never knew you shouldn't."
Hermione on the other hand would have known because of all her background reading. She'd probably found out about all the terrible things he'd done in the same books in which she found out about Harry.
Tomoé - Ju n 1, 2005 7:01 am (#1524 of 2486)
Maybe she even read stories of people who have tell the name and were found dead the next morning, with their whole family AKed, a dark mark floating above the house ...
Muggle Doctor - Ju n 1, 2005 7:08 am (#1525 of 2486)
A while ago, I said: The only one I can think of who wouldn't be scared of Voldemort is Gilderoy Lockhart (prior to his self-obliviation), but we KNOW he's a fool.
And Liz Mann replied, I don't agree with that.
Liz is right. I might amend my statement to say that he would (once) have been the only man stupid enough to pretend not to be scared of LV.
Everyone else alive fears him with good reason, even those who (like Dumbledore) can fight him to a standstill and especially those who work for him. Admitting you're scared of Voldemort doesn't lose you any brownie points; it probably adds them.
librarian314 - Ju n 1, 2005 11:25 am (#1526 of 2486)
Hey all!
I think Hermione should cut Ron some slack about using Voldemort's name. His use of "You-Know-Who" is more personal. Voldemort (or his supporters) killed his uncles (Molly's brothers); she's probably forbidden the family from mentioning their murderer's name. Would you go against one of Molly's edicts?
I sort of envision the whole family not saying Voldemort at first because it upset Molly. It gradually grew into, "Don't say that name, it makes Mom cry."
*michelle the librarian**
Liz Mann - Ju n 1, 2005 2:08 pm (#1527 of 2486)
That's a good point, librarian314. Harry's suffered losses from Voldemort as well, but he didn't know about it before he came to Hogwarts, so the story of a terrible, terrible man murdering his parents hasn't been impressed on him all his life, like Ron might have had impressed on him by his parents after Molly's brothers were killed. And besides that, Harry didn't make the final decision to call Voldemort by his name until after he'd met him (talking to Hagrid in the hospital wing afterwards). Facing your fears and all that. Ron has never faced Voldemort. Maybe if he did Voldemort would become an actual person with a face and a voice and not a childhood horror story. Does that make sense?
Regan of Gong - Ju n 1, 2005 11:41 pm (#1528 of 2486)
I think it makes sense. Good catch!
Ludicrous Patents Office - Ju n 2, 2005 8:47 pm (#1529 of 2486)
Liz I agree that not saying Voldemort's name was probably impressed on Ron and every wizarding child from early on. I'm not sure how much Ron knows about Molly's brothers. They are never mentioned by her children's generation. They do not get the attention other Hogwarts students get when the Death Eaters "escaped." Names are very powerful. I think JKR has added her twist on an age old cultural legacy. LPO
ellebell86 - Ju n 7, 2005 6:16 am (#1530 of 2486)
Another important thing to notice is that the DE's don't even say his name. They call him the Dark Lord. He is so cruel and so powerful that even his closest followers don't speak his name. In CoS, Tom says that some of his closest friends had already started calling his by Lord Voldermort. So at some point it was the name used by his supporters but his brutality against his own followers could have changed that. Dumbledore calls him Tom in such a casual way as they are dueling that it enrages him. I think that this is important because Tom is a half-blood and it reminds him that even after getting a new body, he is still and half-blood because he used his father's bone and Harry's blood. So back to Hermione, I think that she was not just trying to fit in, but rather that she was genuinely scared because the witches she looks up to were terrified (McGonagall and Molly) and she reads so much that she probably knows more about what Voldie did and was capable of that just about any other student even though she was muggle born. Ron grew up in a household with fear of Voldie already in place but he did not live through the terrible times when he was in power. I wonder how it originally started that people all over refused to use his name. Maybe the Daily Prophet or something.
Solitaire - Ju n 7, 2005 7:29 am (#1531 of 2486)
I believe LPO is correct ... names are powerful. No one would have wanted to "invoke" the notice of Voldemort by speaking his name. By calling Voldemort "Tom," Dumbledore reminds him of his own humble beginnings, of the "mortal humanity" he has been so desperate to shed. I wonder ... does calling him "Tom" weaken him in some way?
As for Hermione, I think you are correct, ellebell. Hermione simply has read as much as she is able to get her hands on, she pays close attention to everything, and she probably knows more than even the Wizarding kids who have come from long generations of Wizarding families.
Solitaire
Choices - Ju n 7, 2005 8:48 am (#1532 of 2486)
People used to come up with alternate names for the Devil because they thought if they spoke his name, he would appear. That's where the phrase "speak of the Devil" comes from - when you are talking about someone and they turn up or call you, then you say "Well, speak of the Devil...... and he appears." Hermione is so practical and "no nonsense" that it is odd she would fall into the habit of not speaking Voldemort's name and seem so unnerved when someone dares to say it. Being raised a Muggle and not knowing about Voldemort until probably just before she started Hogwarts, it seems she got into the habit of fearing and not saying the name awfully quick. Usually habits take a fairly long time to form. I doubt she learned it from other wizard children because she probably wasn't around any until she came to Hogwarts and surely Voldemort is not a common topic of conversation among the kids. She must have picked it up simply from reading and I wouldn't think that would cause her to be so reluctant to say "Voldemort".....but evidently we are supposed to think it did.
Weeny Owl - Ju n 7, 2005 10:27 am (#1533 of 2486)
From the Lexicon: The rearranged letters spelled "I AM LORD VOLDEMORT." It was a name he hoped "wizards everywhere would one day fear to speak," when he became the "greatest sorcerer in the world."
That was in CoS, and from the first book we learned that Hermione already knew about Harry because she had read about him in a number of books.
She wants to fit in so badly that it may not be fear of Voldemort as much as fear of offending the very people she wants to accept her. By OotP she certainly isn't afraid that Ron and Harry won't accept her, so calling Voldemort by his name isn't a big deal.
Liz Mann - Ju n 7, 2005 1:53 pm (#1534 of 2486)
As you said, Weeny Owl, she had already read about Harry and she would definately have read about Voldemort in the same books because they would have had to have said what Harry did to get in the book. She'd probably read about all the things Voldemort had done and, being only an eleven year old, maybe it scared her. Or maybe she'd already met a pure-blood wizard on the train before Harry and Ron, spoke the name in front of them, and they had a go at her, "No! Don't say his name! He'll hear you!" Possibly he then told her all the things that wizarding children are told about him by their parents and that made Hermione scared. In fact, we know she met a pure-blood before Harry and Ron - Neville.
Ludicrous Patents Office - Ju n 10, 2005 11:26 am (#1535 of 2486)
Hermione read everything she could about the Wizarding world before she came to Hogwarts. She would work hard to assimilate her new culture. She would respect what she learned. That included not saying the name. It has been mentioned several times only very powerful Witches and Wizards say Voldemort's name. Maybe Hermione is getting powerful and confident enough to break the taboo against saying his name. She is among a very small minority that uses Voldemort's name. Hope her bravery does not get her into trouble! LPO
Czarina II - Ju n 10, 2005 6:26 pm (#1536 of 2486)
Hermione entered the wizarding world in much the same way an immigrant or convert enters a new culture. She is eager to fit in and learn how to do so. If she learns that wizards don't say "Voldemort", she tries best not to do so either, less she be branded an ignorant mudblood. Then, as she grows more accustomed to her new life and surroundings, she too comes to fear the name "Voldemort" because she comes to believe in its evil and mystique. (It is a bit like a curse word.) By the fifth book, she understands that the name has a lot of power, but not in the way she has initially thought: the name has MORE power when unspoken than when spoken. Thus, she uses it carefully and sparingly.
ellebell86 - Ju n 10, 2005 8:13 pm (#1537 of 2486)
Harry also changed from saying Voldermort to You-Know-Who. "Harry turned this news over in his mind. He was starting to get a prickle of fear every time You-Know-Who was mentioned. He supposed this was all part of entering the magical world, but it had been a lotmore comfortable saying "Voldermort" without worrying." SS pg 107.
Gerald Costales - Ju n 19, 2005 9:32 am (#1538 of 2486)
Just to change the subject. I think Hermione using Voldermort's name is important but let's move on. Okay :-)!!!!!
I’m still bothered by the ending of Book 5. In particular the situation with Marietta Edgecomb and her Purple Pimples. Don't you think that Hermione needs to get some reprimand for her hex or curse? I know this subject is very touchy but Hermione is not above the rules at Hogwarts.
Even some token punishment needs to be handed out by MacGonagall. For example -
. . . . . . . . . . “Now, Hermione do be careful with your hexes. That Edgecomb girl is still sporting those Purple Pimples.”
. . . . . . . . . . “But, Professor MacGonagall. Marietta deserved it!!! That sneaky traitor!!!!!
. . . . . . . . . . “Now, enough is enough!!! Time to move on, it’s a new year. You can’t have a 7th year student covering her face all year. Mine you Marietta is a SNEAK and all. But, we’ll talk to her about talking and trusting people like Dolores. (There is slight smile of satisfaction on MacGonagall face now.) I’m sure after a Summer of Purple Pimples, even Ms Edgecomb has seen the error of her ways.”
. . . . . . . . . . “Yes, Professor you’re right. I’ll correct the problem straight away.”
. . . . . . . . . . “Just between you and me. (Speaking in a whisper.) I think that your Hexed Parchment was just brilliant. Something even I would have thought of. Fifty points for Gryffindor!!!!!”
Isn’t it July 16th yet!!!!! ;-) GC
PS Not really much of a punishment. But you should have seen the pouty face Hermione had while being dressed down by MacGonagall. ;-) GC
PPS Of course. Dumbledore would have given Hermione a lemon sherbert after reprimanding Herimone and we all know how Hermione hates sweets. Hermione parents are both Dentists mine you. ;-) GC
Solitaire - Ju n 19, 2005 9:49 am (#1539 of 2486)
I'm still fascinated and amused that the great Umbridge (she thought she was great!) was never able to find a counter-jinx for Marietta's malady. This means she was outsmarted by a 16-year-old, Muggle-born, student Witch (more than once). Yes, I wonder if Umbridge will attempt, in HBP, to even the score with Hermione ...
Solitaire
Liz Mann - Ju n 19, 2005 1:16 pm (#1540 of 2486)
I'm still surprised Hermione would do such a thing as that curse or hex (but then she was extremely edgy in this book). But I'd be extremely shocked if Hermione Granger of all people would make the curse permanant. By the time Marietta comes back to school after the summer the spots will probably be all gone. She probably timed it so the curse would last until the holidays, so that the real punishment would be the humiliation, and then they disappear once she gets home.
Umbridge won't be at Hogwarts in the next book. Dumbledore told Fudge to remove her immediately.
frogface - Ju n 19, 2005 3:01 pm (#1541 of 2486)
Umbridge won't be at Hogwarts no. But that doesn't mean she'll be absent from the story. I'll be very surprised if we've seen the last of her.
I think someone does need to have a good talk with Hermione. Shes essentially good natured most of the time, and very clever and wise. But shes also ever so slightly snobbish. I think she needs to consider that what she thinks its always right a little more often than she seems to do.
Solitaire - Ju n 19, 2005 3:23 pm (#1542 of 2486)
I agree in part, at least, with frogface. Umbridge may not be at Hogwarts, but I'm not sure we've seen the last of her just yet. Possibly she will turn up as a roommate of Lockhart's ... in St. Mungo's.
About Hermione ... I do not see her as snobbish, really. In some ways, I think she relates to the House-Elves, because some consider her a second-class citizen in the magical world. But I do hope either Dumbledore or McGonagall will sit her down and give her the facts of House-Elf life. She respects both of them enormously, and I feel they are the only ones who can truly make her understand what should and should not be attempted with regard to the proper treatment of House-Elves.
Solitaire
Weeny Owl - Ju n 19, 2005 4:22 pm (#1543 of 2486)
My only problem with Hermione using such a hex for members of the DA is that she should have explained a bit more how serious their commitment was.
I don't see that she needs to be punished at all, but I do think someone should talk to her about how she went about it.
Ludicrous Patents Office - Ju n 19, 2005 5:03 pm (#1544 of 2486)
How do we know she has not been talked to? She has kept things from Harry and Ron before. Of course there wasn't much time for McGonagall to speak to her. People were pretty busy with Lord Voldemort returning. After the MOM battle Hermione was in no condition to be punished. She was in the hospital wing for some time. Marietta is disfigured not injured. I'm sure there could have been more painful hexes put on the parchment. LPO
Emiko - Ju n 19, 2005 7:16 pm (#1545 of 2486)
I don't think Hermione or anyone else needed to explain how serious the DA's commitment was. Certainly explusion from Hogwarts suggests that it was serious, and didn't Hermione say that she put a hex on the paper? Did she need to specify? Sometimes the imagination of punishment is the best deterrent. I really don't have pity for Marietta, she was willing to sacrifice the entire group of DAs for herself (and she wasn't really in that much trouble).
Weeny Owl - Ju n 19, 2005 8:22 pm (#1546 of 2486)
No, she didn't say she had put a hex on the paper. She DID say, however, that anyone who chose to sign it was promising not to talk to anyone about the group, but she didn't specify what would happen if they did.
Steve Newton - Ju n 20, 2005 5:39 am (#1547 of 2486)
And, nobody asked.
wwtMask - Ju n 20, 2005 6:30 am (#1548 of 2486)
What I would find more interesting is if Hermione, for a change, actually did not know the counter-jinx!
As far as the parchment goes, I think we worked that subject over pretty thoroughly on the (sadly) closed Marietta Edgecombe thread. Whether you think Hermione acted correctly, you have to admit that anyone who signed the parchment without asking questions was in no position to complain about any curses. At this point in their lives as wizards, these kids should've been wary of almost everything's magical properties. This goes double for them, since they were going to be involved in a secret and unapproved group that was working against the oppression of the Ministry.
Mrs Brisbee - Ju n 20, 2005 7:02 am (#1549 of 2486)
I tend to think of the hex on the parchment as a necessary precaution, and I agree with wwtMask that the kids who signed learned a valuable lesson about questioning whatever they put their signatures to. However, I hope that lesson didn't come at the price of eroding future trust in Hermione. One of the major themes of OotP was trust and friendship, and how those are needed if the wizarding world is to defeat Voldemort. I think Hermione would have done better to tell them all the exact terms of the contract they signed.
librarian314 - Ju n 20, 2005 7:23 am (#1550 of 2486)
Hey all!
I hope someone (Lupin perhaps?) does take the time to chat with Hermione about her jinxing of the parchment, not because that was wrong, but the fact that it wasn't explained explicitly. (i.e. If you have signed this parchment and you squeal, you will be jinxed.) That's the part that she needs to work on or have channeled into more appropriate activities. (Spy anyone?)
I also see this episode as reinforcing something that we readers know but may not have been paying attention to, the fact that not only is Hermione book smart but can do complicated magic on numerous fronts. So far we've seen her advanced potion making skills, charms, and transfigurations. Now, members of other houses and years have seen her skills and know that she is not only the top of her year, but better than many of the students older than she is.
*michelle the librarian**
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Solitaire - Jun 20, 2005 10:30 am (#1551 of 2486)
wwtMask is correct ... we really did work the contract issue over on Marietta's thread, which has since been closed. Having said as much, however, I agree with Mask and Mrs. Brisbee. Joanne R. Reid posted--on the "Harry's shortest stay" thread--something about binding magical contracts. She said McGonagall had "created such a contract with Harry to tutor him so that he could become a Auror" during his career counseling appointment with McGonagall and Umbridge.
If McGonagall's words--spoken in an extremely emotional state during that conference--can be taken as a binding magical contract, then I'd say that independently signing one's name to Hermione's parchment and agreeing not to tell anyone, especially Umbridge, about the DA is far more obviously such a binding magical contract.
Solitaire
Edit: The truth is that any or all of the kids could have asked Hermione some questions about that parchment and what would happen if they were actually caught and questioned directly by Umbridge ... and did not want to openly lie. Not one person did.
Catherine - Jun 20, 2005 10:37 am (#1552 of 2486)
You have a point there, Solitaire.
In a way, the kids acted much as Harry does when he fails to ask important questions.
If Hermione can get twenty-odd kids to sign a magical contract and have someone suffer the effects of "backing out," one can see how that plays out in the larger world with Voldemort.
Ludicrous Patents Office - Jun 20, 2005 11:00 am (#1553 of 2486)
When they signed the parchment: "It was as though they had just signed some kind of contract." p. 347 OoP Scholastic. I think the meaning was quite clear that they were binding themselves to an agreement. Most of the students know Hermione and what she can do magically.
Hermione is becoming quite an activist. She is turning her formidable intellect and skill towards anti-establishment activities (S.P.E.W. and the DA). She is learning alot along the way. For example, when and where to conduct secret meetings. LPO
GryffEndora - Jun 20, 2005 11:51 am (#1554 of 2486)
LPO - you are absolutely right about Hermione's activism and the things she's learned. I would like to add that she is also learning how to manipulate the media.
Madame Pomfrey - Jun 20, 2005 12:04 pm (#1555 of 2486)
What I would find more interesting is if Hermione, for a change, actually did not know the counter-jinx! -WwtMask.
I am thinking she didn't.In the RoR she carefully marked a book "Jinxes for the Jinxed" then put it aside once the meeting came to order. I am wondering if this book contained the counter jinx.If not,what was so important or interesting that made Hermione "carefully" mark it?
Solitaire - Jun 20, 2005 12:15 pm (#1556 of 2486)
While I believe Hermione is far off-base in her dealings with the House-Elves, I do not think she is really unscrupulous or careless with people's safety. I believe she knew the counter-jinx. After all, she might have been confronted by Dumbledore or McGonagall ... and I cannot see her NOT telling the two of them what she did. I doubt they asked ... or cared. After all, Dumbledore didn't seem too bothered by what had happened to Marietta ... did he?
Come to think of it ... did anyone ever actually ask Hermione to remove the jinx, or did Umbridge and Poppy simply try their hands (unsuccessfully) at it? I can't remember. Another thing to consider ... is it possible Poppy didn't try all that hard to find a counter-jinx, considering she seems to be in Dumbledore's camp? Do the adults even know that it was Hermione who placed the jinx? I'm sure McGonagall has a good idea that she was the one, but ...
Solitaire
edited
Mrs Brisbee - Jun 20, 2005 12:41 pm (#1557 of 2486)
I think Madame Pomfrey did her best to remove the jinx, and it wasn't removable because it was caused by breaking a magical contract. Dumbledore couldn't get around the Goblet of Fire contract for Harry when Harry didn't even put his name in, and Dumbledore is supposed to be the most powerful wizard who lives. It must be something in the nature of magical contracts. It would also be a bit scary and unethical if Madame Pomfrey is applying her healing talents selectively, depending on if the ill person agrees with her veiwpoints or not. I really don't think that is the case.
I think there probably is some way the jinx can wear off or be removed-- though back in GoF Hermione was helping train Harry to use the Shield Charm with some spell she didn't know the counter-jinx to. They had to stop for ten minutes while she looked up the counter-jinx to jelly legs.
Emiko - Jun 20, 2005 12:58 pm (#1558 of 2486)
The thing about the jelly legs, though, was that it was between friends, with no real consequences involved. I agree with solitaire, Hermione isn't so reckless with people's safety that she could jinx a paper and not know the counter jinx.
I also don't believe that it will jeopardize trust in Hermione for the school, because while Maritta's immediate friends (Cho) were upset about it, everyone else, or so it seemed to me, agreed with hermione, or at least understood why she did what she did. Besides, the jinx stopped Marietta from saying anything more to Umbridge which worked out for the best in the end.
wwtMask - Jun 20, 2005 1:11 pm (#1559 of 2486)
I'm not sure about that point, it's presented a bit too ambiguously. It seems that every DA member understands that Hermione jinxed the parchment. If that is so, then they apparently are not telling the adults what's going on. For that matter...maybe they're afraid to do so because it might trigger the jinx? Otherwise, I would think that they would have questioned Hermione already. If that's true, I can only assume that Hermione is letting the lesson sink in some more.
As an aside, while it may seem that Hermione is being cruel by letting the jinx remain on Marietta (as was suggested on the Marietta thread), I think we can put her actions in perspective. The majority of the time that Marietta suffered the jinx were while Umbridge had power over the school. It would have been stupid and an admission of guilt if Hermione tried to undo the curse while Umbridge was still Head Dictator. After that, Hermione spent all but the last few days of term in the Hospital wing. So, all in all, Hermione only really had a few days in which she could have voluntarily fixed the jinx.
Mrs Brisbee - Jun 20, 2005 1:21 pm (#1560 of 2486)
I think Hermione is her generations Dumbledore. She is brilliant, intelligent, and compassionate. But she also is still very young, and she isn't perfect.
Take house elves, for example, and how she treats them. She tries to trick them into freedom. It doesn't appear that she has considered what happens after freedom. Her intentions to help the house elves are noble, but she will have a hard time earning the house elves' trust because of her actions.
I agree that most of the members of the DA had no objection to the jinx when they learned of it after the fact, probably veiwing it as a necessary and successful precaution. But next time Hermione tries to get them to put their name on something, they might hesitate, and demand full disclosure. When she comes around again with her S.P.E.W. sign-up sheet there will be another reason not to sign on, if people start fearing there are secret consequences.
Emiko - Jun 20, 2005 1:39 pm (#1561 of 2486)
"But next time Hermione tries to get them to put their name on something, they might hesitate, and demand full disclosure." You're probablly right, Mrs. Brisbee. I also think of Fred and George, though, who have jinxed loads of food and stuff, no one ended up disliking them, although they were wary of accepting food from them.
But what about Harry? I've always thought Harry to be the next DD figure, not so much hermione. Hermione reminds me more of McGonagall.
Solitaire - Jun 20, 2005 1:43 pm (#1562 of 2486)
I agree, Emiko, that Hermione seems more like McGonagall. But I do believe Jo has said that she uses Hermione and Dumbledore to speak for her ... correct?
Solitaire
Mrs Brisbee - Jun 20, 2005 1:52 pm (#1563 of 2486)
Let me clarify what I meant by Hermione is her generation's Dumbledore. Dumbledore is the most powerful wizard that lives, and he is very adept at magic, and he uses his abilities to do good. Madame Marsh said he did things with his wand when she tested him for NEWTs that she had never seen before. Sounds like the track that Hermione is on.
Much as I love McGonagall, there is nothing that points to her being in Dumbledore's league when it comes to magical power.
Ludicrous Patents Office - Jun 20, 2005 2:57 pm (#1564 of 2486)
Mrs. Brisbee I agree that Hermione is her generation's Dumbledore. They both have an extra sense of what is going on around them. For example in PoA Hermione was able to understand and use time. She could put things together from different times. Dumbledore was able to figure out that time was manipulated to free Buckbeak and Sirius. Their minds work on many levels. Hermione is the cleverest witch of her age. She is like McGonagall in her personality, especially regarding rules. However she is not above bending or breaking rules for her purposes. She and Dumbledore share a certain curiosity that goes beyond the average person. They absorb and seek knowledge. LPO
Mrs Brisbee - Jun 20, 2005 3:08 pm (#1565 of 2486)
Thanks, LPO. You explained it better than I did.
librarian314 - Jun 20, 2005 3:55 pm (#1566 of 2486)
Hey all!
I think the jinx on the parchment was an object lesson for all involved. Even though some of the students, like Cho, weren't exactly pleased with the outcome, being disfigured is preferable to being dead which could easily happen if you break an agreement with Voldemort or the Order of the Phoenix. It proved beyond a doubt that breaking wizarding contracts are serious business with serious consequences. At least Marietta didn't have to learn the truly hard way, like Regulus Black.
Hopefully, Hermione has learned that full disclosure is best and perhaps some subtlety is in order. "SNEAK" emblazoned on one's forehead is definitely a deterrent but perhaps letting it dissipate more quickly would have been better.
*michelle the librarian**
Steve Newton - Jun 20, 2005 5:20 pm (#1567 of 2486)
I don't know. If the betrayal took place during 6th year someone could die. I think letting people know that mistakes have long term consequences is a good idea. Its not like she's going to die.
I also think that Madam Pomfrey intentionally left the pimples in place. I think that she appreciated the lesson. (I know, I probably can't support this with text.)
Choices - Jun 20, 2005 5:41 pm (#1568 of 2486)
Snitching is a dirty, lowdown thing to do - it is betrayal and is equal to what Peter Pettigrew did. I think Marietta got, at the very least, what she deserved. Betraying your friends and fellow students needs punishing and hopefully it taught a lesson to more than just Marietta about honor and loyalty.
Mrs Brisbee - Jun 20, 2005 5:52 pm (#1569 of 2486)
Well, Snape and Firenze are also betrayers. I think it depends on the circumstances, but there is always a price to pay.
Choices - Jun 20, 2005 6:07 pm (#1570 of 2486)
I grant you there are definitely different kinds of betrayal.
wwtMask - Jun 21, 2005 6:35 am (#1571 of 2486)
I think it depends entirely on your point of view. Snape's betrayal is seen as "good" because he betrayed Voldemort while Peter's betrayal is "bad" because he betrayed the Potters. Ultimately, the betrayer will be vindicated or condemned by history (which is, of course, written by the victors).
Hermione could the next Dumbledore very easily. Her friendship with Harry and Ron has definitely made her somewhat less like McGonnagal. After the serious business that will transpire over the next two years, I can imagine her realizing that she need not be strict and rule oriented. Given time, I can see her become a kindly, good natured, brilliant old witch. And, like Dumbledore, I believe she will be just as fearsome if anyone ever provokes her (actually, she already is)!
Mrs Brisbee - Jun 21, 2005 7:09 am (#1572 of 2486)
Also like Dumbledore, Hermione takes an active role in making the wizarding world a better place. Dumbledore belongs to all sorts of political organizations, as well as being leader of the Order, and Hermione at sixteen has already founded two organizations, SPEW and the DA.
Solitaire - Jun 21, 2005 11:08 am (#1573 of 2486)
I can actually imagine Hermione as a future Headmistress of Hogwarts. I think she would be awesome!
Mrs Brisbee - Jun 21, 2005 11:55 am (#1574 of 2486)
I think she would be a great headmistress too-- after her long and productive career in politics. Dilys(sp?) Derwent was a St. Mungo's healer for a long time before she became headmistress, so I imagine Hermione having a long and illustrious career elsewhere before settling down to Hogwarts in her later years.
Emiko - Jun 21, 2005 3:28 pm (#1575 of 2486)
I think the different kinds of betrayl (good vs. bad) depends on the outcomes. Peter's betrayl is "bad" because it resulted in the murder of his friends. Snape's betrayl is "good" because he is trying to save lives and stop murderers. That's kind of obvious I guess. I don't think Hermione really wants (at least now) to be headmistress. She, Harry and Ron are all planning on being aurors, right? (at least Ron says something to that affect in GoF) I can see Hermione stepping up to be an auror when needed, but then being more of a minister of magic, or something. She likes being in charge, and she likes changing things.
Solitaire - Jun 21, 2005 8:18 pm (#1576 of 2486)
Mrs. Brisbee, I agree that it would be many years before Hermione is ready to be the Head of Hogwarts ... assuming it is something she would even want to do. My money is on McGonagall for the next Hogwarts head; but I could see Hermione taking up the mantle in her latter years.
Solitaire
Joanne R. Reid - Jun 22, 2005 6:27 am (#1577 of 2486)
Hi, Emiko,
Although Ron and Harry have expressed the desire to become Aurors, Hermione has not. She has stated that she wants to do something important with her life. I would guess that means some kind of public service, but who knows.
Thanks,
Solitaire - Jun 22, 2005 8:26 am (#1578 of 2486)
Personally, I think Hermione would make a great Wizard-Muggle liaison. It seems to me that is one area where she would shine. She could really put Mr. Weasley's department in order! Personally, I think the MoM is missing out by not employing Muggle-borns in this capacity. They could eliminate a lot of problems.
Solitaire
Aqualu Nifey - Jun 22, 2005 12:02 pm (#1579 of 2486)
I could see Hermione as an activist for a couple of years while doing something else to put bread on the table, something like being a waitress or something. Especially with the war going on, Hermione is going to be a very prominent figure. She will work hard for the Order. If all goes well after the war, I see her holding a lot of picket signs. Maybe she'll work freelance for the Ministry.
Emiko - Jun 22, 2005 1:07 pm (#1580 of 2486)
I agree Solitaire, it makes no sense to put wizards who know almost nothing about the muggle world in positions where they have to deal with muggles. I don't really see Hermione working at the MoM unless she's in charge. It's just so... bureacratic, if that's the right word. I think eventually Hermione's going to find a better way to change things than activism (or perhaps a different approach to it) ala SPEW. Obviously she's not very sucessful at the moment.
Hollywand - Jun 22, 2005 9:57 pm (#1581 of 2486)
I like the idea of Hermione and Arthur Weasley teaming up in Research and Development in the Ministry for Magic. Who knows how much they could improve some of these Muggle devices out there! Arthur would love it!
Miriam Huber - Jun 23, 2005 10:48 am (#1582 of 2486)
I would like to see Hermione working on "a new fountain of Magical Brethren", so to speak.
This fountain "told a lie", like Dumbledore said, it showed in an ideological way the suppression of magical creatures by wizards. Some of the damage Voldemort is able to do stems from that quarter. I would like Hermione (once her "liberating thing" has calmed down a bit, but I think that just her teenage) to go on something like a diplomatic mission to reassess (right word?) the relations between all beasts, creatures, humans, beings ...
She would learn a lot of languages, go on many conferences and work on statutes and things like that - and really make the wizarding world a better place (AND do her bit to prevent a new Voldemort).
Solitaire - Jun 23, 2005 1:48 pm (#1583 of 2486)
She would certainly be one Witch who has the smarts to be able to do this. I agree that it would have to wait until after she has learned more about how ahd WHY the various "cultures" interact as they do within the magical world.
Solitaire
Liz Mann - Jun 23, 2005 5:32 pm (#1584 of 2486)
I think Hermione could be Headmistress also, but like others have said, not until her later years.
Going back briefly to the hex, I think Marietta deserved it, but I should imagine it will wear off eventually. A large amount of students would have been expelled, but I don't think being permanantly disfigured for the rest of your life is suitable punishment for that. If Hermione is capable of doing something like that, I would worry about her and what's becoming of her. However, a temporary punishment that perhaps wears off during the summer would be different. Besides, if it stays that way I think Marietta's parents would complain to the school about Hermione.
Regan of Gong - Jun 24, 2005 12:58 am (#1585 of 2486)
At the risk of being lynched, I see Hermione as more of a Snape character, but in a good way. She knew more charms than anyone when she came to Hogwarts and she knows some really advanced magic, better than most/all 7th years. I don't think that there would be anyone of Dumbledore's quality that often, even though it's been a hundred years or so.
And this discussion about Headmistress and Minister (Mistress?) for Magic is assuming she survives the end of the series. She would do well, I think, and she is showing signs of wisdom and good thinking. I don't see her operating to the calibre of DD though, but that's just me...
Mrs Brisbee - Jun 24, 2005 5:40 am (#1586 of 2486)
Regan, are you comparing Hermione's magical power level to Snape's, or their characters? I can't see Hermione as very Snape like. Like Dumbledore, she uses her intelligence to try to better the world. She creates organizations to try to solve problems. She is a bit sneaky sometimes, and is quite capable of coming up with (mostly) brilliant plans to accomplish what she wants done-- without necessarily sharing what she is planning with others. That reminds me of Dumbledore too, not Snape. She is brilliant at Transfiguration and Charms like Dumbledore was, while Snape seems to be great at Potions and DADA (actually, Hermione seems to be great at Potions too, and good at DADA. Her abilities might well be on the road to outstripping Snape's). It of course remains to be seen whether she will do amazing things never seen before with her wand when it comes to NEWTs, but she still has two more years of study. Hermione is also very thoughtful and considerate of other people's feelings, very unlike Snape.
While her magical power level and intelligence might only turn out to be at Snape's level and not Dumbledore's (though I doubt that), I think it will be how she uses all her abilities that will matter. I don't see her following Snape's road.
applepie - Jun 24, 2005 9:21 am (#1587 of 2486)
Maybe she will be a future Headmistress of Hogwarts? Could you imagine a muggle-born being Headmistress? Slytherin house wouldn't know what to do with itself.
Side note: I don't know for sure, but no previous Headmaster/Headmistress comes to mind that was muggle-born.
pottermom34 - Jun 24, 2005 12:12 pm (#1588 of 2486)
If Hermione became a future headmistress, Draco would really squirm. MNaybe even be a future dark wizard
Solitaire - Jun 24, 2005 12:26 pm (#1589 of 2486)
Well, Regan, I wouldn't be too hard on Hermione just yet. After all, she is 100+ years younger than Dumbledore. I suspect--if she is lucky enough to live to 100--her knowledge will be tempered with gentleness and wisdom, as well. In fact, if she has the good fortune to be mentored by the exceptional likes of McGonagall and Dumbledore, she could very well surpass them both. After all, don't genuine mentors usually hope for this to happen?
Solitaire
Ludicrous Patents Office - Jun 24, 2005 2:02 pm (#1590 of 2486)
I like the idea of a Muggle born Headmistress of Hogwarts. Surely in 1000 years of history there has been one or two.
One of the advantages of living so long Witches probably do not have to face the delima of career or family. If Hermione chooses to marry and have children she can also look forward to many opportunities as her children are growing and when they are adults.
I hope Hermione continues to be more creative. She has a considerable amount of book and classroom learning. I like to see her create more things. She could learn from Fred and George! LPO
Regan of Gong - Jun 24, 2005 5:38 pm (#1591 of 2486)
I was basing the Hermione/Snape thing on the fact that Hermione probably knew a lot more magic than anyone in the first year, she tells Harry and Ron on the train. I drew the connection from learning that Snape knew more curses than anyone when he came to Hogwarts, and could do some really advanced magic, much like the pimple curse Hermione put on Marietta. I'm not comparing the characters, more the magical ability.
Arguably, DD is the greatest wizard of all time, and I don't think another one equal in power (Hermione or Harry) would come so soon. I believe that Snape is a powerful wizard, but a little unfair, advanced in power and Hermione is probably closer to him in ability than DD. It would have taken a great amount of thinking to realise that Quirrel was probably evil and realising that Quirrel was trying to throw Harry off his broom was quick as well. I'm not a big Snape lover, that's just how I see it.
HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 25, 2005 5:04 am (#1592 of 2486)
I agree, Regan. She's been told she's the cleverest witch of her time, which says alot. Snape had more knowledge than most 7th years in his first year. If I'd have to pick one, I'd say Hermoine will surpass him knowledge-wise (relative to ages), if she hasn't already.
pottermom34 - Jun 25, 2005 7:31 pm (#1593 of 2486)
Ok, here's an idea. Let me know if this has been mentioned before. I know her parents are muggles, but it seems like there has/had to be some magic blood somewhere in her family line be it mother, or father's side (this seems necessary for any muggle borns). What if she is somehow relayed to Dumbledore distantly.
Liz Mann - Jun 26, 2005 9:41 am (#1594 of 2486)
Hey! Maybe the film makers giving Hermione Dumbledore's lines is deliberately foreshadowing! Seriously, though, I think if she was related to him, he'd be trying to get to know her better. I agree though that she must have some wizard blood in her family somewhere, though perhaps not for generations.
Paulus Maximus - Jun 26, 2005 2:25 pm (#1595 of 2486)
I must confess, I have no idea where the idea comes from that Muggle-born Wizards must have had a Wizard ancestor...
Why couldn't Hermione have been the first witch ever in her family?
Solitaire - Jun 26, 2005 2:44 pm (#1596 of 2486)
I agree, Paulus. I think the very fact that Wizards and Witches were born to Muggle families with absolutely no Wizarding ancestry whatsoever is what bugged Salazar Slytherin so much.
Solitaire
Liz Mann - Jun 26, 2005 3:55 pm (#1597 of 2486)
I think magic ability is supposed to be genetic. That would be suggested by the fact that J.K. has said that "magic is the dominant and resiliant gene" (hence why Squibs are rare). And if it is genetic then it would suggest that somewhere down the line, someone in Hermione's family was magical. But then maybe one of her ancestors turned out a Squib and the Squib married a Muggle or something. (Squibs are non magic people born to half and half couples too, so a wizard could have been married into Hermione's family.)
Emiko - Jun 26, 2005 5:22 pm (#1598 of 2486)
I agree with Sollitaire. It's hard to believe that the huge secret of the wizarding world would have died out in Hermione's family if they once knew about it. Although it is possible.
Choices - Jun 26, 2005 5:34 pm (#1599 of 2486)
Liz Mann - I agree with you. That is the way I have always seen it - somewhere in the family background there was someone magical. Perhaps they kept their magical ability quiet for fear of persecution, but the gene was passed on.
Ladybug220 - Jun 26, 2005 5:44 pm (#1600 of 2486)
Edited by Jun 26, 2005 5:50 pm
I thought that JKR said somewhere that sometimes it just happens that a wizard is born into a muggle family. It's magic.
off to search the quick qoutes quill.....
edit: Found it!!
Hi, Ms. Rowling. How does a Muggle-born like Hermione develop magical abilities?
Nobody knows where magic comes from. It is like any other talent. Sometimes it seems to be inherited, but others are the only ones in their family who have the ability. **bold mine
Barnes and Noble interview, March 19, 1999
wwtMask is correct ... we really did work the contract issue over on Marietta's thread, which has since been closed. Having said as much, however, I agree with Mask and Mrs. Brisbee. Joanne R. Reid posted--on the "Harry's shortest stay" thread--something about binding magical contracts. She said McGonagall had "created such a contract with Harry to tutor him so that he could become a Auror" during his career counseling appointment with McGonagall and Umbridge.
If McGonagall's words--spoken in an extremely emotional state during that conference--can be taken as a binding magical contract, then I'd say that independently signing one's name to Hermione's parchment and agreeing not to tell anyone, especially Umbridge, about the DA is far more obviously such a binding magical contract.
Solitaire
Edit: The truth is that any or all of the kids could have asked Hermione some questions about that parchment and what would happen if they were actually caught and questioned directly by Umbridge ... and did not want to openly lie. Not one person did.
Catherine - Jun 20, 2005 10:37 am (#1552 of 2486)
You have a point there, Solitaire.
In a way, the kids acted much as Harry does when he fails to ask important questions.
If Hermione can get twenty-odd kids to sign a magical contract and have someone suffer the effects of "backing out," one can see how that plays out in the larger world with Voldemort.
Ludicrous Patents Office - Jun 20, 2005 11:00 am (#1553 of 2486)
When they signed the parchment: "It was as though they had just signed some kind of contract." p. 347 OoP Scholastic. I think the meaning was quite clear that they were binding themselves to an agreement. Most of the students know Hermione and what she can do magically.
Hermione is becoming quite an activist. She is turning her formidable intellect and skill towards anti-establishment activities (S.P.E.W. and the DA). She is learning alot along the way. For example, when and where to conduct secret meetings. LPO
GryffEndora - Jun 20, 2005 11:51 am (#1554 of 2486)
LPO - you are absolutely right about Hermione's activism and the things she's learned. I would like to add that she is also learning how to manipulate the media.
Madame Pomfrey - Jun 20, 2005 12:04 pm (#1555 of 2486)
What I would find more interesting is if Hermione, for a change, actually did not know the counter-jinx! -WwtMask.
I am thinking she didn't.In the RoR she carefully marked a book "Jinxes for the Jinxed" then put it aside once the meeting came to order. I am wondering if this book contained the counter jinx.If not,what was so important or interesting that made Hermione "carefully" mark it?
Solitaire - Jun 20, 2005 12:15 pm (#1556 of 2486)
While I believe Hermione is far off-base in her dealings with the House-Elves, I do not think she is really unscrupulous or careless with people's safety. I believe she knew the counter-jinx. After all, she might have been confronted by Dumbledore or McGonagall ... and I cannot see her NOT telling the two of them what she did. I doubt they asked ... or cared. After all, Dumbledore didn't seem too bothered by what had happened to Marietta ... did he?
Come to think of it ... did anyone ever actually ask Hermione to remove the jinx, or did Umbridge and Poppy simply try their hands (unsuccessfully) at it? I can't remember. Another thing to consider ... is it possible Poppy didn't try all that hard to find a counter-jinx, considering she seems to be in Dumbledore's camp? Do the adults even know that it was Hermione who placed the jinx? I'm sure McGonagall has a good idea that she was the one, but ...
Solitaire
edited
Mrs Brisbee - Jun 20, 2005 12:41 pm (#1557 of 2486)
I think Madame Pomfrey did her best to remove the jinx, and it wasn't removable because it was caused by breaking a magical contract. Dumbledore couldn't get around the Goblet of Fire contract for Harry when Harry didn't even put his name in, and Dumbledore is supposed to be the most powerful wizard who lives. It must be something in the nature of magical contracts. It would also be a bit scary and unethical if Madame Pomfrey is applying her healing talents selectively, depending on if the ill person agrees with her veiwpoints or not. I really don't think that is the case.
I think there probably is some way the jinx can wear off or be removed-- though back in GoF Hermione was helping train Harry to use the Shield Charm with some spell she didn't know the counter-jinx to. They had to stop for ten minutes while she looked up the counter-jinx to jelly legs.
Emiko - Jun 20, 2005 12:58 pm (#1558 of 2486)
The thing about the jelly legs, though, was that it was between friends, with no real consequences involved. I agree with solitaire, Hermione isn't so reckless with people's safety that she could jinx a paper and not know the counter jinx.
I also don't believe that it will jeopardize trust in Hermione for the school, because while Maritta's immediate friends (Cho) were upset about it, everyone else, or so it seemed to me, agreed with hermione, or at least understood why she did what she did. Besides, the jinx stopped Marietta from saying anything more to Umbridge which worked out for the best in the end.
wwtMask - Jun 20, 2005 1:11 pm (#1559 of 2486)
I'm not sure about that point, it's presented a bit too ambiguously. It seems that every DA member understands that Hermione jinxed the parchment. If that is so, then they apparently are not telling the adults what's going on. For that matter...maybe they're afraid to do so because it might trigger the jinx? Otherwise, I would think that they would have questioned Hermione already. If that's true, I can only assume that Hermione is letting the lesson sink in some more.
As an aside, while it may seem that Hermione is being cruel by letting the jinx remain on Marietta (as was suggested on the Marietta thread), I think we can put her actions in perspective. The majority of the time that Marietta suffered the jinx were while Umbridge had power over the school. It would have been stupid and an admission of guilt if Hermione tried to undo the curse while Umbridge was still Head Dictator. After that, Hermione spent all but the last few days of term in the Hospital wing. So, all in all, Hermione only really had a few days in which she could have voluntarily fixed the jinx.
Mrs Brisbee - Jun 20, 2005 1:21 pm (#1560 of 2486)
I think Hermione is her generations Dumbledore. She is brilliant, intelligent, and compassionate. But she also is still very young, and she isn't perfect.
Take house elves, for example, and how she treats them. She tries to trick them into freedom. It doesn't appear that she has considered what happens after freedom. Her intentions to help the house elves are noble, but she will have a hard time earning the house elves' trust because of her actions.
I agree that most of the members of the DA had no objection to the jinx when they learned of it after the fact, probably veiwing it as a necessary and successful precaution. But next time Hermione tries to get them to put their name on something, they might hesitate, and demand full disclosure. When she comes around again with her S.P.E.W. sign-up sheet there will be another reason not to sign on, if people start fearing there are secret consequences.
Emiko - Jun 20, 2005 1:39 pm (#1561 of 2486)
"But next time Hermione tries to get them to put their name on something, they might hesitate, and demand full disclosure." You're probablly right, Mrs. Brisbee. I also think of Fred and George, though, who have jinxed loads of food and stuff, no one ended up disliking them, although they were wary of accepting food from them.
But what about Harry? I've always thought Harry to be the next DD figure, not so much hermione. Hermione reminds me more of McGonagall.
Solitaire - Jun 20, 2005 1:43 pm (#1562 of 2486)
I agree, Emiko, that Hermione seems more like McGonagall. But I do believe Jo has said that she uses Hermione and Dumbledore to speak for her ... correct?
Solitaire
Mrs Brisbee - Jun 20, 2005 1:52 pm (#1563 of 2486)
Let me clarify what I meant by Hermione is her generation's Dumbledore. Dumbledore is the most powerful wizard that lives, and he is very adept at magic, and he uses his abilities to do good. Madame Marsh said he did things with his wand when she tested him for NEWTs that she had never seen before. Sounds like the track that Hermione is on.
Much as I love McGonagall, there is nothing that points to her being in Dumbledore's league when it comes to magical power.
Ludicrous Patents Office - Jun 20, 2005 2:57 pm (#1564 of 2486)
Mrs. Brisbee I agree that Hermione is her generation's Dumbledore. They both have an extra sense of what is going on around them. For example in PoA Hermione was able to understand and use time. She could put things together from different times. Dumbledore was able to figure out that time was manipulated to free Buckbeak and Sirius. Their minds work on many levels. Hermione is the cleverest witch of her age. She is like McGonagall in her personality, especially regarding rules. However she is not above bending or breaking rules for her purposes. She and Dumbledore share a certain curiosity that goes beyond the average person. They absorb and seek knowledge. LPO
Mrs Brisbee - Jun 20, 2005 3:08 pm (#1565 of 2486)
Thanks, LPO. You explained it better than I did.
librarian314 - Jun 20, 2005 3:55 pm (#1566 of 2486)
Hey all!
I think the jinx on the parchment was an object lesson for all involved. Even though some of the students, like Cho, weren't exactly pleased with the outcome, being disfigured is preferable to being dead which could easily happen if you break an agreement with Voldemort or the Order of the Phoenix. It proved beyond a doubt that breaking wizarding contracts are serious business with serious consequences. At least Marietta didn't have to learn the truly hard way, like Regulus Black.
Hopefully, Hermione has learned that full disclosure is best and perhaps some subtlety is in order. "SNEAK" emblazoned on one's forehead is definitely a deterrent but perhaps letting it dissipate more quickly would have been better.
*michelle the librarian**
Steve Newton - Jun 20, 2005 5:20 pm (#1567 of 2486)
I don't know. If the betrayal took place during 6th year someone could die. I think letting people know that mistakes have long term consequences is a good idea. Its not like she's going to die.
I also think that Madam Pomfrey intentionally left the pimples in place. I think that she appreciated the lesson. (I know, I probably can't support this with text.)
Choices - Jun 20, 2005 5:41 pm (#1568 of 2486)
Snitching is a dirty, lowdown thing to do - it is betrayal and is equal to what Peter Pettigrew did. I think Marietta got, at the very least, what she deserved. Betraying your friends and fellow students needs punishing and hopefully it taught a lesson to more than just Marietta about honor and loyalty.
Mrs Brisbee - Jun 20, 2005 5:52 pm (#1569 of 2486)
Well, Snape and Firenze are also betrayers. I think it depends on the circumstances, but there is always a price to pay.
Choices - Jun 20, 2005 6:07 pm (#1570 of 2486)
I grant you there are definitely different kinds of betrayal.
wwtMask - Jun 21, 2005 6:35 am (#1571 of 2486)
I think it depends entirely on your point of view. Snape's betrayal is seen as "good" because he betrayed Voldemort while Peter's betrayal is "bad" because he betrayed the Potters. Ultimately, the betrayer will be vindicated or condemned by history (which is, of course, written by the victors).
Hermione could the next Dumbledore very easily. Her friendship with Harry and Ron has definitely made her somewhat less like McGonnagal. After the serious business that will transpire over the next two years, I can imagine her realizing that she need not be strict and rule oriented. Given time, I can see her become a kindly, good natured, brilliant old witch. And, like Dumbledore, I believe she will be just as fearsome if anyone ever provokes her (actually, she already is)!
Mrs Brisbee - Jun 21, 2005 7:09 am (#1572 of 2486)
Also like Dumbledore, Hermione takes an active role in making the wizarding world a better place. Dumbledore belongs to all sorts of political organizations, as well as being leader of the Order, and Hermione at sixteen has already founded two organizations, SPEW and the DA.
Solitaire - Jun 21, 2005 11:08 am (#1573 of 2486)
I can actually imagine Hermione as a future Headmistress of Hogwarts. I think she would be awesome!
Mrs Brisbee - Jun 21, 2005 11:55 am (#1574 of 2486)
I think she would be a great headmistress too-- after her long and productive career in politics. Dilys(sp?) Derwent was a St. Mungo's healer for a long time before she became headmistress, so I imagine Hermione having a long and illustrious career elsewhere before settling down to Hogwarts in her later years.
Emiko - Jun 21, 2005 3:28 pm (#1575 of 2486)
I think the different kinds of betrayl (good vs. bad) depends on the outcomes. Peter's betrayl is "bad" because it resulted in the murder of his friends. Snape's betrayl is "good" because he is trying to save lives and stop murderers. That's kind of obvious I guess. I don't think Hermione really wants (at least now) to be headmistress. She, Harry and Ron are all planning on being aurors, right? (at least Ron says something to that affect in GoF) I can see Hermione stepping up to be an auror when needed, but then being more of a minister of magic, or something. She likes being in charge, and she likes changing things.
Solitaire - Jun 21, 2005 8:18 pm (#1576 of 2486)
Mrs. Brisbee, I agree that it would be many years before Hermione is ready to be the Head of Hogwarts ... assuming it is something she would even want to do. My money is on McGonagall for the next Hogwarts head; but I could see Hermione taking up the mantle in her latter years.
Solitaire
Joanne R. Reid - Jun 22, 2005 6:27 am (#1577 of 2486)
Hi, Emiko,
Although Ron and Harry have expressed the desire to become Aurors, Hermione has not. She has stated that she wants to do something important with her life. I would guess that means some kind of public service, but who knows.
Thanks,
Solitaire - Jun 22, 2005 8:26 am (#1578 of 2486)
Personally, I think Hermione would make a great Wizard-Muggle liaison. It seems to me that is one area where she would shine. She could really put Mr. Weasley's department in order! Personally, I think the MoM is missing out by not employing Muggle-borns in this capacity. They could eliminate a lot of problems.
Solitaire
Aqualu Nifey - Jun 22, 2005 12:02 pm (#1579 of 2486)
I could see Hermione as an activist for a couple of years while doing something else to put bread on the table, something like being a waitress or something. Especially with the war going on, Hermione is going to be a very prominent figure. She will work hard for the Order. If all goes well after the war, I see her holding a lot of picket signs. Maybe she'll work freelance for the Ministry.
Emiko - Jun 22, 2005 1:07 pm (#1580 of 2486)
I agree Solitaire, it makes no sense to put wizards who know almost nothing about the muggle world in positions where they have to deal with muggles. I don't really see Hermione working at the MoM unless she's in charge. It's just so... bureacratic, if that's the right word. I think eventually Hermione's going to find a better way to change things than activism (or perhaps a different approach to it) ala SPEW. Obviously she's not very sucessful at the moment.
Hollywand - Jun 22, 2005 9:57 pm (#1581 of 2486)
I like the idea of Hermione and Arthur Weasley teaming up in Research and Development in the Ministry for Magic. Who knows how much they could improve some of these Muggle devices out there! Arthur would love it!
Miriam Huber - Jun 23, 2005 10:48 am (#1582 of 2486)
I would like to see Hermione working on "a new fountain of Magical Brethren", so to speak.
This fountain "told a lie", like Dumbledore said, it showed in an ideological way the suppression of magical creatures by wizards. Some of the damage Voldemort is able to do stems from that quarter. I would like Hermione (once her "liberating thing" has calmed down a bit, but I think that just her teenage) to go on something like a diplomatic mission to reassess (right word?) the relations between all beasts, creatures, humans, beings ...
She would learn a lot of languages, go on many conferences and work on statutes and things like that - and really make the wizarding world a better place (AND do her bit to prevent a new Voldemort).
Solitaire - Jun 23, 2005 1:48 pm (#1583 of 2486)
She would certainly be one Witch who has the smarts to be able to do this. I agree that it would have to wait until after she has learned more about how ahd WHY the various "cultures" interact as they do within the magical world.
Solitaire
Liz Mann - Jun 23, 2005 5:32 pm (#1584 of 2486)
I think Hermione could be Headmistress also, but like others have said, not until her later years.
Going back briefly to the hex, I think Marietta deserved it, but I should imagine it will wear off eventually. A large amount of students would have been expelled, but I don't think being permanantly disfigured for the rest of your life is suitable punishment for that. If Hermione is capable of doing something like that, I would worry about her and what's becoming of her. However, a temporary punishment that perhaps wears off during the summer would be different. Besides, if it stays that way I think Marietta's parents would complain to the school about Hermione.
Regan of Gong - Jun 24, 2005 12:58 am (#1585 of 2486)
At the risk of being lynched, I see Hermione as more of a Snape character, but in a good way. She knew more charms than anyone when she came to Hogwarts and she knows some really advanced magic, better than most/all 7th years. I don't think that there would be anyone of Dumbledore's quality that often, even though it's been a hundred years or so.
And this discussion about Headmistress and Minister (Mistress?) for Magic is assuming she survives the end of the series. She would do well, I think, and she is showing signs of wisdom and good thinking. I don't see her operating to the calibre of DD though, but that's just me...
Mrs Brisbee - Jun 24, 2005 5:40 am (#1586 of 2486)
Regan, are you comparing Hermione's magical power level to Snape's, or their characters? I can't see Hermione as very Snape like. Like Dumbledore, she uses her intelligence to try to better the world. She creates organizations to try to solve problems. She is a bit sneaky sometimes, and is quite capable of coming up with (mostly) brilliant plans to accomplish what she wants done-- without necessarily sharing what she is planning with others. That reminds me of Dumbledore too, not Snape. She is brilliant at Transfiguration and Charms like Dumbledore was, while Snape seems to be great at Potions and DADA (actually, Hermione seems to be great at Potions too, and good at DADA. Her abilities might well be on the road to outstripping Snape's). It of course remains to be seen whether she will do amazing things never seen before with her wand when it comes to NEWTs, but she still has two more years of study. Hermione is also very thoughtful and considerate of other people's feelings, very unlike Snape.
While her magical power level and intelligence might only turn out to be at Snape's level and not Dumbledore's (though I doubt that), I think it will be how she uses all her abilities that will matter. I don't see her following Snape's road.
applepie - Jun 24, 2005 9:21 am (#1587 of 2486)
Maybe she will be a future Headmistress of Hogwarts? Could you imagine a muggle-born being Headmistress? Slytherin house wouldn't know what to do with itself.
Side note: I don't know for sure, but no previous Headmaster/Headmistress comes to mind that was muggle-born.
pottermom34 - Jun 24, 2005 12:12 pm (#1588 of 2486)
If Hermione became a future headmistress, Draco would really squirm. MNaybe even be a future dark wizard
Solitaire - Jun 24, 2005 12:26 pm (#1589 of 2486)
Well, Regan, I wouldn't be too hard on Hermione just yet. After all, she is 100+ years younger than Dumbledore. I suspect--if she is lucky enough to live to 100--her knowledge will be tempered with gentleness and wisdom, as well. In fact, if she has the good fortune to be mentored by the exceptional likes of McGonagall and Dumbledore, she could very well surpass them both. After all, don't genuine mentors usually hope for this to happen?
Solitaire
Ludicrous Patents Office - Jun 24, 2005 2:02 pm (#1590 of 2486)
I like the idea of a Muggle born Headmistress of Hogwarts. Surely in 1000 years of history there has been one or two.
One of the advantages of living so long Witches probably do not have to face the delima of career or family. If Hermione chooses to marry and have children she can also look forward to many opportunities as her children are growing and when they are adults.
I hope Hermione continues to be more creative. She has a considerable amount of book and classroom learning. I like to see her create more things. She could learn from Fred and George! LPO
Regan of Gong - Jun 24, 2005 5:38 pm (#1591 of 2486)
I was basing the Hermione/Snape thing on the fact that Hermione probably knew a lot more magic than anyone in the first year, she tells Harry and Ron on the train. I drew the connection from learning that Snape knew more curses than anyone when he came to Hogwarts, and could do some really advanced magic, much like the pimple curse Hermione put on Marietta. I'm not comparing the characters, more the magical ability.
Arguably, DD is the greatest wizard of all time, and I don't think another one equal in power (Hermione or Harry) would come so soon. I believe that Snape is a powerful wizard, but a little unfair, advanced in power and Hermione is probably closer to him in ability than DD. It would have taken a great amount of thinking to realise that Quirrel was probably evil and realising that Quirrel was trying to throw Harry off his broom was quick as well. I'm not a big Snape lover, that's just how I see it.
HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 25, 2005 5:04 am (#1592 of 2486)
I agree, Regan. She's been told she's the cleverest witch of her time, which says alot. Snape had more knowledge than most 7th years in his first year. If I'd have to pick one, I'd say Hermoine will surpass him knowledge-wise (relative to ages), if she hasn't already.
pottermom34 - Jun 25, 2005 7:31 pm (#1593 of 2486)
Ok, here's an idea. Let me know if this has been mentioned before. I know her parents are muggles, but it seems like there has/had to be some magic blood somewhere in her family line be it mother, or father's side (this seems necessary for any muggle borns). What if she is somehow relayed to Dumbledore distantly.
Liz Mann - Jun 26, 2005 9:41 am (#1594 of 2486)
Hey! Maybe the film makers giving Hermione Dumbledore's lines is deliberately foreshadowing! Seriously, though, I think if she was related to him, he'd be trying to get to know her better. I agree though that she must have some wizard blood in her family somewhere, though perhaps not for generations.
Paulus Maximus - Jun 26, 2005 2:25 pm (#1595 of 2486)
I must confess, I have no idea where the idea comes from that Muggle-born Wizards must have had a Wizard ancestor...
Why couldn't Hermione have been the first witch ever in her family?
Solitaire - Jun 26, 2005 2:44 pm (#1596 of 2486)
I agree, Paulus. I think the very fact that Wizards and Witches were born to Muggle families with absolutely no Wizarding ancestry whatsoever is what bugged Salazar Slytherin so much.
Solitaire
Liz Mann - Jun 26, 2005 3:55 pm (#1597 of 2486)
I think magic ability is supposed to be genetic. That would be suggested by the fact that J.K. has said that "magic is the dominant and resiliant gene" (hence why Squibs are rare). And if it is genetic then it would suggest that somewhere down the line, someone in Hermione's family was magical. But then maybe one of her ancestors turned out a Squib and the Squib married a Muggle or something. (Squibs are non magic people born to half and half couples too, so a wizard could have been married into Hermione's family.)
Emiko - Jun 26, 2005 5:22 pm (#1598 of 2486)
I agree with Sollitaire. It's hard to believe that the huge secret of the wizarding world would have died out in Hermione's family if they once knew about it. Although it is possible.
Choices - Jun 26, 2005 5:34 pm (#1599 of 2486)
Liz Mann - I agree with you. That is the way I have always seen it - somewhere in the family background there was someone magical. Perhaps they kept their magical ability quiet for fear of persecution, but the gene was passed on.
Ladybug220 - Jun 26, 2005 5:44 pm (#1600 of 2486)
Edited by Jun 26, 2005 5:50 pm
I thought that JKR said somewhere that sometimes it just happens that a wizard is born into a muggle family. It's magic.
off to search the quick qoutes quill.....
edit: Found it!!
Hi, Ms. Rowling. How does a Muggle-born like Hermione develop magical abilities?
Nobody knows where magic comes from. It is like any other talent. Sometimes it seems to be inherited, but others are the only ones in their family who have the ability. **bold mine
Barnes and Noble interview, March 19, 1999
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Ludicrous Patents Office - Jun 26, 2005 7:50 pm (#1601 of 2486)
Thanks Ladybug. Guess it could go either way. No wonder the purebloods feel threatened. They aren't so special after all. LPO
Liz Mann - Jul 1, 2005 6:18 am (#1602 of 2486)
Although they would never admit that in a million years.
Ponine - Jul 2, 2005 5:45 pm (#1603 of 2486)
This is such a great discussion! I have personally never had a problem with Hermione's hexed parchment. This is not charms club, or a game of exploding snap. All of these kids have been told that LV is back, Cedric died, and Umbridge hates Harry with a passion. Whether they want to believe LV has returned or not, this group is in fact founded in part due to their discontent with Dolores' methods, and they should all be fairly aware of the fact that the DA must remain a secret; informing Umbie for instance could certainly lead to death or even worse, expelled... Now, signing your name on a piece of paper absolutely indicates consent and understanding of the situation. Marietta risked not only her best friend (or at least a good one), but the expulsion of about twenty of her fellow students! After training with them extensively for many months! And for this, she gets pimples. Oh my. I am inclined to believe that some faculty may have considered the spots a nifty bit of magic, much like the swamp, and choosing not to put their removal on the top of their to do list. I am confident that they will be removed, sooner rather than later, but that nobody dropped all they had in their hands to get around to it...
As far as Hermione is concerned, I don't think she was in the wrong to do what she did. As I mentioned above, this is a very serious matter, where Ron and Hermione really have stuck their neck out; they could easily have benefitted from Harry's knowledge privately and no one would ever have known. Rather, they risk sharing what they consider important skills, and in the process putting their education at Hogwarts in their fellow DAs hands. I think that the pimples/postules/bumps/boils/zits serve multiple purposes. First of all, it immediately alerts that the members may be in danger. Secondly, it effectively indicates who may have done this. Third, it must be considered a non-harmful, yet powerful message to Marietta, that I am sure she will learn from in the long run.
Finally, about the elves, I am torn. I do not appreciate how she 'baits' the elves, but I see this as misguided kindness more than anything else. I believe Ron and Harry feel the same way, as none of them really confront her, not even after Harry realizes Dobby is the only one who will go to Gryffindor. The thing is - what if Hermione does have a point? I mean, historically, suppressed groups as a whole have not always welcomed change, for various reasons. Somehow, I think the elves need to be properly informed and make their own individual decisions, but I am not sure Hermione is the right person to do so. While I am inclined to believe that Ron's attitude towards them are a bit too casual, change may almost have to occur generationally, I think... Oh gosh - this is way long, I am sorry... :/
Solitaire - Jul 2, 2005 6:45 pm (#1604 of 2486)
Nice post, Ponine!
Ydnam96 - Jul 2, 2005 7:03 pm (#1605 of 2486)
Ponine, I agree wholeheartedly about the DA and all that. I also agree about the house elves. I think Hermione means well, and would never conciously do anything to hurt or harm them, but she doesn't understand all of the political and other issues surronding their existence within the wizarding world. I really do think that this will play into the future of the book.
The giant squid - Jul 2, 2005 11:10 pm (#1606 of 2486)
Ponine, I have only one thing to say about your post: "Umbie"??
MickeyCee3948 - Jul 3, 2005 8:04 am (#1607 of 2486)
I agree with the giant squid "Umbie"??? Please, that makes her sound almost nifty and cool. As far as the rest of your post Ponine, I totally agree with you, very well put.
Mickey
Emiko - Jul 3, 2005 9:05 am (#1608 of 2486)
Ponine, I think you have a good point about other oppressed groups resisting change. At the same time, if they really do want to work, they should be welcome to. I think all that the elves need to be given the rights and freedoms to be paid and/or leave their masters, but they do not have to do either if they do not so wish. I agree with Hermione that they are terribly under-represented in the Ministry (either by an elf, or by a spokesperson who speaks for their best interests)
Weeny Owl - Jul 3, 2005 9:42 am (#1609 of 2486)
One of my problems with Hermione's campaign to free House-Elves is that she hasn't stopped to think about the economic impact freedom will have on their lives.
Dobby said he wandered the country for two years and couldn't find work because people didn't want to pay. If Hermione truly freed hundreds of House-Elves from Hogwarts, what would the economic impact be for them? Dumbledore would pay them, I'm sure, but if they left because they thought they weren't wanted, they might not bother asking him. Hermione could ruin quite a few little lives if she isn't careful.
Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 3, 2005 11:49 am (#1610 of 2486)
Part of the problem is a lack of cultural understanding. Hermione is adamant that freedom, wages, vacations, are right and just. She is forcing her belief system on another culture. The House Elves find those ideas insulting and alien to their culture. I agree Weeny Owl Hermione could ruin a lot of lives. A free society is based on diversity. It allows for different groups to have their own customs and cultures. Even if the mainstream does not agree with those. That is very difficult to do. LPO
Solitaire - Jul 3, 2005 1:28 pm (#1611 of 2486)
If the House-elves were to revolt en mass, the Ministry would be forced to enact some sort of legislation about wages, because I doubt those who'd grown used to House-elves would want to do the work themselves. But trying to put things right AFTER they are already in a state of chaos is terribly difficult.
In order for the liberation of the House-elves work, there would have to be legislation in place--as well as a program of education for the elves and Wizards alike--BEFORE everything got underway, I should think. If the House-elves do not want to be freed and do not understand the concept of freedom, nothing is going to work. Such things take time; they cannot happen overnight.
I believe Hermione has good intentions with regard to the elves. Alas, like most people, she fails to take all of the above factors into consideration. She does not understand the sense of pride the elves feel in their work. She also does not understand that elves like Winky, for example, feel a strong sense of love and devotion to their families.
It's easy to understand why Dobby would want to be free of the Malfoys, if the rest of the family treat him like Lucius treated him. Kreacher is demented, so IMO he is not a good indicator of elves in general. Winky, however, seemed to have a great deal of responsibility and trust placed in her by Barty Sr. She undoubtedly felt as if she were part of the Crouch family. To be suddenly "divorced" from them--for her dismissal was similar to that--must have been a horribly difficult and cruel blow to understand.
There are a lot of variables that Hermione needs to understand before she goes blazing in and starts to turn things upside down. I think she has potential, if she would take some coaching by Dumbledore or McGonagall ... or even Dobby. She needs to learn patience ... not easy for a young person!
Solitaire
timrew - Jul 3, 2005 3:05 pm (#1612 of 2486)
Dolly Umbie - a cool witch!
Ponine - Jul 3, 2005 5:05 pm (#1613 of 2486)
Thank you so much for your kind words! It means so much to me when someone actually agrees with me in here, as you all are so insightful both to Potterverse and life in general...
Mike and Mickey - I am sorry about the Umbie, and it will not happen again - it was merely a case of my mind going quicker than fingers, and wanting to keep up.. would Dumbie be better? Voldebridge?
Weeny, I agree with you in that a significant change in the house-elves' situation would have broad ramifications for the WW as a whole, but I don't think Hermione can be expected to consider these aspects at her age, regardless of intellect. I see her as young, passionate and idealistic, striving to make the world a better place.. (those were the days...)
Solitaire - precisely! Wonderful post!
Weeny Owl - Jul 3, 2005 8:25 pm (#1614 of 2486)
She is definitely all of that, Ponine, but someone older and wiser (McGonagall, Dumbledore?) needs to sit her down and explain the possible ramifications of what she is trying to do.
Hermione is showing a great deal of disrespect to the House-Elves. By wanting to free them, good intentions aside, she's telling them she doesn't appreciate the work they do, and that they don't belong at Hogwarts... at least that's how they see it. It isn't really too far from how some people (Draco, for instance) treat her.
She is young, yes. She is passionate, yes. She is idealistic, yes. She just needs to realize before she does any true harm that what she thinks is best for someone isn't necessarily what truly IS best.
Ydnam96 - Jul 3, 2005 9:52 pm (#1615 of 2486)
Weeny Owl, I think you are correct in your assessment of Hermione's need to think further about the situation than she has. She is seeing things from a very Western/Modern point of view.
However, I must disagree with you on one point. Economic impact, while a legitimate concern, as far as something that would need to be dealt with, should NOT be a hindarance to making sure that all beings are given free will. I'm not sure I said that in the right way, but basically if all other issues were taken care of and the only thing standing in the way of the house elves being treated more fairly and equally by the WW was the economic impact it would have I would have to say that the well being of a living creature, it's freedom to choose it's own life style and living conditions, are far more important than economics.
Without getting too polictical: the US economy survived the emancipation. For people to stop doing something that is right for money is wrong.
Now I don't mean to say that there aren't other considerations that do impact the issue. Number one being that the house elves, with few exceptions, like the way they live and would quite possibly choose to stay where they were if given the choice between "freedom" and their current situation. But, I think Hermione does have a point in that they may not know what it is they are missing because that is how their lives have been for so long. I think if there were a way to educate the house elves about their choices and get the rest of the wizarding world on board then the best thing would be to let the house elves choose their own future.
Sorry that was long...and very much my personal opinion.
Solitaire - Jul 3, 2005 11:34 pm (#1616 of 2486)
the US economy survived the emancipation
Yes, it did ... but I'm really thinking more about some of the horrific things that happened to the people themselves after the war ... at the hands of some of their former masters. The slaves may have been freed by the war, but freed to do what? They were resented by most of the white population, blamed for all manner of crimes--as though crime had never existed in the South before slaves were freed!--and targeted for hate crimes. No one wanted to pay for their labor when they could get convict labor much more cheaply.
Do you suppose former slaves who continued to work for their former masters ever got fair pay for their labor? I've often wondered ... did Rhett and Scarlett Butler pay wages to Mammy, Prissy, and Pork?
Solitaire
Ydnam96 - Jul 4, 2005 6:49 am (#1617 of 2486)
You are right, there would have to be very strict guidlines and such put in place. I don't think things were "fair" or done correctly after the war here.
I just don't think the fate of one's economy should stand in the way of humane treatment. You can fix the economy but oppression of a people (or house elves) is wrong and if it can be fixed it should be (no matter what the economic fallout)
In my head I'm thinking, the only families that have house elves are the families that can afford to hire help, as they are almost all traditionally wealthy established pure blood wizards. So if the house elves were given the choice to work for wages and given magical rights (wand usage and such) then really the only people who get "hurt" are the rich. Who can afford to pay the house elves anyway. Plus that actually puts money into the economy- through the house elves, clothing, wands, other such things they don't use or buy now.
All this of course depends on if that population feels they are being mistreated. Which is a whole 'nother debate.
Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 4, 2005 8:12 am (#1618 of 2486)
Harry was able to free Dobby because he knew Dobby wanted to be freed. Hermione has not met a House Elf that needed her help to be freed. In order for the House Elves to be freed they have to want it. Slaves in the US had to fight for their freedom. If Hermione really wants to help she would recreate S.P.E.W. to help Elves who want to be freed. It would be a House Elf Underground Railway. LPO
Weeny Owl - Jul 4, 2005 10:41 am (#1619 of 2486)
Economic impact, while a legitimate concern, as far as something that would need to be dealt with, should NOT be a hindarance to making sure that all beings are given free will.
I should have made myself clearer... I meant the economic impact to the House-Elves themselves and not the Wizarding World. It was Dobby looking for work for two years that I was thinking of. If Hermione freed hundreds of elves, what would they do? Where would they go? How would they live? Dobby did, but Dobby is unusual.
HungarianHorntail11 - Jul 4, 2005 11:16 am (#1620 of 2486)
Ponine, great points and a great post.
Ydnam96, I agree. Unfortunately, in many situations, money dictates over humane treatment (hence, the south resistance). It is only when masses are brought to the realization of something when it is challenged. At this juncture, Dobby is the only elf we know of who wanted to be free. Weeny Owl, if all elves were freed, there would be a need to hire their services. As Ydnam96 compared the emancipation in the US, many slaves were taken aback at the thought of leaving their masters. (Sound like any house-elves you know?) Many were also afraid of any backlash if their efforts failed.
DD's reaction seems to lend thought to the idea that Hermoine is on the right track. The fountain seemed like a foreshadowing of how the elves may eventually help the very people who kept them enslaved for so long (wizards and witches in general). Although she may have an arduous road ahead of her, it may well serve the Order and those on the side of good in this war in the long run.
Weeny Owl - Jul 4, 2005 11:20 am (#1621 of 2486)
Weeny Owl, if all elves were freed, there would be a need to hire their services.
Not necessarily. I'm sure some wizarding families would hire back their elves, and I can't see Dumbledore not paying Hogwarts House-Elves, but people are stubborn and don't like being forced into something, particularly when it involves their pocketbooks.
But even so, Hermione still needs to consider more than just her desire to free the elves and think about what they want instead of forcing her opinions on an entire society.
Paulus Maximus - Jul 4, 2005 11:24 am (#1622 of 2486)
I'm sure Hermione got a wake up call when she saw that Dobby had been taking all of her hats and socks...
I just wish I knew how that affected her view on house elves... I guess we'll find out soon enough.
Joanne R. Reid - Jul 4, 2005 11:31 am (#1623 of 2486)
Hi,
I just posted this on the House-elf thread. I thought it might be apropos here as well.
"I was just thinking about the attributes of a happy house-elf.
1. Gainfully employed.
2. Employed by a good family.
3. Trusted with the family's secrets.
4. Responsible for the health, welfare and happiness of the family.
5. Responsible for the protection of the family.
6. Performs duties without being noticed.
7. On call 24/7 for any purpose, large or small.
8. Needed by the family.
9. Properly enslaved by their family.
10. Proud of begin in servitude to their family.
I'm sure there are other attributes, but these leapt off the top of my head. It doesn't seem to me that any of these atrributes are consistent with freedom, self-will or independence."
To my way of thinking, Hermione is on the wrong track completely. She has imposed her values, morals, tenets, dogmae and thoughts into a completely strange and foreign realm, about which she knows nothing. She has assumed that, because she is intellectually gifted and perhaps one of the most powerful witches of her time, she is infallible.
For once in her life, books are not going to guide her. She must do the one thing that Hermione is incapable of doing: she must consult with and listen to the wants, needs and desires of others. She can't shout them down. She can't show them up. The can't get better grades than they do or use any of her other standard means of coping.
Until and unless, Hermione sits down with a bunch of House-elves, listens to them and comes to understand their anthropological role in the WW, she will be heading towards disappointment. Worse, by her actions she could even force the House-Elves to support Voldemort against the WW. After all, Voldemort and his DEs want House-Elves to remain in their present roles.
She has the opportunity at Hogwarts to meet with and to listen to more than one hundred House-Elves. Perhaps, Dumbledore, Harry or even Dobby will become her mentor in this endeavor.
Thanks,
Aqualu Nifey - Jul 4, 2005 2:35 pm (#1624 of 2486)
=D This is like a Harry Potter C-SPAN or something.... So great!
While I sorta agree with you, Joanne, I think that's kinda harsh. She wants to do the right thing, but she's going about it the wrong way. It's wonderful that she's helping out the House - Elves, but I think that she should go talk to them a little bit more and not be so insistent that they see her point of view right away. She should find one of the Elves who's willing to talk it out with her and address concepts individually. If she dumps it all on them at once, they're going to get freaked out and won't want any part of it. Just needs to take it slow for now. Then when she's done talking to the House Elves, she should then bring up what they want to the Ministry of Magic and THEN shout and push her views and be passionate.
Ponine - Jul 4, 2005 2:54 pm (#1625 of 2486)
Hmm... Employment indicates a paid job... Thus, in my humble opinion, your first two points are less than accurate. Joanne, I agree with many of your points, and with the exception of the employment part, I like them.
I am not sure I agree with the rest, however. In my opinion, one could draw parallels between Hermione's mission and the endless attempts by various western nations to assimilate various indingenous peoples at various times. Without much thought as to whether your subjects feel in need of help, want of help or even remotely desire help, one barges in with grand ideas of revolutionizing their world as they know it and make it all better. I maintain that history is littered with people older and wiser who have done what Hermione does. (I am not even going to get into all the ones who went in for less than idealistic reasons; but I think we all are aware of the fact that more often than not, money, labor, or goods were more enticing than improving other's living conditions).
My biggest concern is that Hermione might not be wrong. Joanne mentions how none of the points she listed are consistent with freedom, self-will or independence, and this is precisely what bothers me. Does the average house-elf in reality have sufficient knowledge to make decision about what freedom is and what it could be? If freedom has been defined generations ago as a disgrace, should it be redefined before allowed rejected? I would certainly not stop you from burning books, if this is what you want to do, but if you can't read - is it my responsibility to teach you to read before burning, so that you know what you are turning your back to? And how did I ever tangle myself up in this?
Aqualu Nifey - Jul 4, 2005 3:23 pm (#1626 of 2486)
"Does the average house-elf in reality have sufficient knowledge to make decision about freedom is and what it could be?" - Ponine
That's why I think Solitaire (was it Solitaire?) was right in saying that there need to be reforms in education for House - Elves and Wizards before anything is done about a house-elf's freedom.
Ms Amanda - Jul 4, 2005 3:48 pm (#1627 of 2486)
Perhaps, instead of pushing the elves to reform, Hermione needs to reform the elf-owners.
Much like U.S. humane treatment of animals movements, there should be enforcement of the healthy, safe environment for house-elves. Included in this reform should be mandatory education of elves that includes elf history, but perhaps not including cultural bias that would involve pressing elves to freedom. If owners were found to be lax in the well-being of elves, such as owning mal-nourished or beaten elves, even if the punishment were self-inflicted, there would be warning systems and finally compulsory removal of the elves. Elves who wished to be freed, as Dobby did, would be much more easily identified, and elves would be educated as to the process for release. If an elf did not wish to be removed, self-punishments would be reduced, I would think.
I'm surprised that Hermione has not thought of this. Really, changing the elves' minds would not do a thing right now because they cannot free themselves if they wished to. Plus, Hogwarts elves do not wish to leave DD, and they find the hats and scarves insulting. After all, they have been educated to believe that freedom is equal to removal from service and removal from service is equal to being disowned for bad behavior. It is an insult to them to offer them freedom!
As a logical person, Hermione should be able to figure this out for herself. Hermione does not seem to be able to reconcile her emotions with logic as she does with, for example, Cho to Ron and Harry. She may not need a mentor; she needs to sit down and analyze why her methods are not working.
Ponine - Jul 4, 2005 5:35 pm (#1628 of 2486)
Aqualy - yes, I really like Solitaire's thoughts on the matter too - I meant to get to that as well, but I sort of talked myself away...
Say, I was just thinking, and I am not sure whether I am incredibly dense, and that this is common knowledge among the rest of you, or if I actually am on to something - Hermione left all sorts of assorted knitted apparel about Gryffindor Tower. Dobby later informs Harry that he is now the only one who will go up there to clean, as the other elves are insulted by the hidden clothes and refuse. Now, on my first - ten or so rereads, I thought nothing of it; of course it was insulting, she tried to free them against her will. but then, just tonight after my last post, it struck me that I never entertained the notion that it also, is completely in vain on her part, and in theory taunting to the elves. I mean - all of a sudden, I don't understand why Hermione seems convinced that any of her clothes could free them? Harry could not free Dobby, could he? Lucius Malfoy had to, right? So, would not Dumbledore, possibly Filch or someone in charge of the kitchens have to be the presenter of clothes? I mean, if Hermione really thinks that the elves wishes to be free, how cruel it must be to leave them little tokens of freedom that mean nothing at all? (Fortunately, I do not think Hogwarts elves are in that position, but nontheless, I could see how a little girl trying to free them against their will, without even realizing that she has no power to do so could be somewhat offensive...) Input, anyone?? Input, anyone
sere35 - Jul 4, 2005 6:52 pm (#1629 of 2486)
Did anyone suggest that the wizards made the house elfs magically for the sole purpose of cleaning and taking care of a family. If that is the case it my be magically in their nature to do so and they can't get out of it.
Or maybe they as a race did something so bad they were cursed into serving the wizarding community that they wronged.
sere35 - Jul 4, 2005 6:57 pm (#1630 of 2486)
Ponine I though that same thing the first time I read that. I kept saying to myself is someone going to tell Hermoine she is wasting her time. That she has no authority to release the house elves.
LooneyLuna - Jul 5, 2005 6:04 am (#1631 of 2486)
When Hermione made a Christmas present for Kreacher, Ron says, "It better not be clothes." So, maybe if an elf is presented with clothes in the house of their Master, they are freed, but outside the home, only the Master can free them with clothes. That's the only explanation I can come up with for Hermione being able to free the Hogwart's elves. Being Hermione, she had to find a loophole around the Master.
I agree, Hermione is going about it the wrong way.
Mrs Brisbee - Jul 5, 2005 6:29 am (#1632 of 2486)
Perhaps, instead of pushing the elves to reform, Hermione needs to reform the elf-owners. --Ms Amanda
I think you're right about this. And also all wizards and witches whether they have a house elf or not. Kind of like the abolition movement in the U.S. often aimed their arguments against slavery at the people who were already free and were in the best position to help if they could be persuaded.
Whether or not the house elves actually want to continue being enslaved (how weird it is to say such a thing) really doesn't excuse the Wizarding World's behavior towards them.
wwtMask - Jul 5, 2005 7:06 am (#1633 of 2486)
After considering the discussion of the past few days, I've come to a startling conclusion: Hermione is right. Startling, right? Here's why I think so.
First, house elves cannot have always been the servants(slaves) of wizards; at some point in the far past the enslavement happened and is now accepted as the natural order. House elves, I believe, are conditioned to not only accept their enslavement but to prefer it as a lifestyle. It is ingrained in their culture. Thus far the argument against SPEW is that Hermione is ignoring the desires of the house elves but, I contend, the attitude of the house elves towards their own freedom is suspect due to this conditioning. Her efforts to re-introduce the concept of wanting freedom to them were, I think, on the right track (after all, most 'subversive' ideas aren't accepted very easily). She's fighting a culture of enslavement, though so far it's been mainly aimed at one side of the issue.
Which brings me to the next point: regardless of whether house elves desire their freedom, the wizarding world is wrong for allowing the enslavement to continue and should end the practice immediately. Again, this is a culture issue. I think a lot of wizards may think the house elf situation is embarrassing or wrong, but they shrug their shoulders and say "that's how it's always been" or "they like it" (Ron!). This is a morally bankrupt position that hinges on the desires of the enslaved, desires which have been conditioned to fit with the desires of the enslavers! If these wizards believe that slavery is wrong they should advocate for the end of it, if for no other reason than to absolve wizard-kind of the moral burden! Their silent opposition is nothing more than an implicit approval of the embarrassing institution. This is a point that I think Hermione understands, though I wish she put more effort into swaying humans on this issue than house elves. After all, the house elves have no power over laws.
I'm really not surprised that Hermione has taken up this mantle. She has the perspective of an outsider, a sense of justice for all, and the intelligence to carry out a campaign against this injustice. We should not be asking why Hermione is so stubborn on the issue; we should be asking why all of the other wizards, wizards we like/admire, are so silent and passive on an issue that has no grey areas. Slavery is wrong and should be stopped wherever found. If these were humans and not elves, would there be the same complacency?
On another note, regarding Marietta, the parchment, and the DA: as discussed on the edgecombed Marietta thread, Marietta probably thought that telling umbridge about the DA would only result in the expelling of Harry, not the others. Considering how hard Umbridge was trying to get Harry, I believe that she was correct in thinking so. In their zeal to get Harry, I'm sure that the others would have gotten slaps on the wrist from Umbridge (exceptions being Hermione and the Weasleys). This could probably explain why Cho was so forgiving; no doubt she had worked that much out and, since no one got caught, she wanted to give her best friend the benefit of the doubt. Besides, she's always been jealous of Hermione's close relationship with Harry...but that's another thread.
HungarianHorntail11 - Jul 5, 2005 9:36 am (#1634 of 2486)
I think you put the SPEW situation well, wwtMask. Changes as big as this do not come without opposition. (Look at the US Civil War.) It has to start somewhere. Also, I am not so sure how the clothing-freedom bind is broken. I am sure we will be seeing more of this in future books, as it seems Hermoine is just getting started.
If Marietta was indeed thinking it would only result in Harry's expulsion, well, then what kind of a person accepts something (valuable lessons, in this case) from someone, then betrays that person? Not one of good moral fiber, I'd say.
Solitaire - Jul 5, 2005 9:37 am (#1635 of 2486)
I don't know, Mask ... Even if Cho had worked out that Marietta probably figured Harry was "the only one" who would be hurt by her actions, so what? It's okay to betray a group of people as long as you're reasonably sure that the only one who will be seriously harmed by your actions is the one you hate anyway?
It seems to me that if Marietta did have that mindset, then she more or less put Cho in the position of having to choose between Marietta and Harry--although Harry and Cho were pretty rocky at that point. Still, real friends do not ask other friends to make choices like that. Well, I never did. I just accepted that my best friend had a close friendship with a formerly good friend whom I could no longer trust. I was always careful not to put her in the position of feeling like she had to choose between me and my former friend, and I was careful not to bad-mouth the ex-friend who'd betrayed me.
On another note ... Harry could not free Dobby, could he? Lucius Malfoy had to, right?
I've been wondering about this all along. Hermione has said "Harry freed Dobby"; but he didn't. Lucius did, when he tossed that sock. As smart as Hermione is about most things, she is incredibly dense on this point. She does not seem to make the distinction. She has no jurisdiction over the elves. I suppose she can ask them for help with things (or could, once upon a time), but she doesn't "own" them ... hence, she is not authorized to set them free.
A thought ... could that be why Kreacher continued to hang around the Black house even though Sirius was in prison and everyone else was dead? Was it because there was no one around to set him free? (I realize they could not free him once the Order moved in, as he knew too much.) Just wondering ...
Solitaire
HungarianHorntail11 - Jul 5, 2005 9:51 am (#1636 of 2486)
Regarding Kreacher, that is what I always thought, Solitaire.
wwtMask - Jul 5, 2005 10:13 am (#1637 of 2486)
Perhaps (and this is really reaching) Hermione intends to increase the house elves' desire for clothing (as opposed to freedom, which clearly is a battle uphill pulling a boulder while wearing roller skates). She can't free them per se, but maybe she thinks the clothing will carry its own subliminal message/symbolism?
Solitaire: I wasn't agreeing with what Marietta did (as you recall from the Marietta thread, I was pretty anti-Marietta), I was just pointing out what probably went through her mind. She didn't like Harry, was probably jealous of the attention her best friend was giving him, and probably felt pressured (this may or may not have actually been the case) to not cross Umbridge. Her reasoning for going to Umbridge wasn't illogical; I believe Umbridge would have let someone get away with murder (literally) at Hogwarts if it meant she could somehow expel Harry. What she did was despicable and short-sighted, no doubt, but the negative consequences (sans curse, of course) would have been purely to Harry's detriment, not her own.
Solitaire - Jul 5, 2005 10:27 am (#1638 of 2486)
Actually, Mask, I agree with that part. What I find weird is Cho's seeming acceptance of it all--assuming (a) that it was Marietta's reasoning and (b) that Cho had knowledge of it.
Solitaire
wwtMask - Jul 5, 2005 10:39 am (#1639 of 2486)
Well, I can imagine Cho's train of thoughts on the subject. First, she was probably relieved that she and the others weren't getting in trouble. Next, since she hadn't gotten in trouble, her anger at her friend was soon replaced by concern for Marietta's condition. Realizing that the condition was a result of the parchment, her simmering jealousy of Hermione found an outlet by blaming Hermione for what happened to her friend (incidentally, I think that Cho's jealousy of Hermione stems from both her close relationship to Harry AND the fact that Hermione is clearly more clever than Cho; smart people can be very envious of smarter people). I don't believe that Cho was aware of her friend's plans, otherwise she wouldn't have been at the DA meeting that night. In the end, I think Cho easily forgave her friend because there wasn't too much immediate harm as far as she could tell, because she would take Marietta's side over Hermione's any day, and because she was concerned for Marietta's condition. I think she could tell that her supposed relationship with Harry was on the way out anyway, so her loyalty would naturally fall to her best friend.
Solitaire - Jul 5, 2005 10:44 am (#1640 of 2486)
Any further comment on Cho's role should, I suppose, be taken to Cho's thread.
Paulus Maximus - Jul 5, 2005 1:46 pm (#1641 of 2486)
I am sure that if Harry could give an order to a house elf employed by Dumbledore, Hermione could set them free...
The house elves treat practically every student they have met as their masters (perhaps excepting Hermione), so perhaps the students ARE their masters...
Ponine - Jul 5, 2005 2:14 pm (#1642 of 2486)
Solitaire - It makes a lot of sense to me that Kreacher would not be in a position to leave Grimmauld Place without Sirius, his inherited master present to let him go. I always assumed Kreacher hung around due to the portrait of his old mistress, and I am sure that was a positive factor for him, but additionally, he was probably obligated to stay.
And Paulus, I am still not so sure that Hermione could set them free. Winky and Dobby have treated everyone with extreme amounts of respect, also while still with Crouch and Malfoy. I agree with Soli in that Hermione has made a huge oversight in this case, and that the elves relationship and treatment of students would probably be similar to that of Kreacher and the young Black children back in the days - they would absolutely be obeyed and served, but had no power to dismiss him. Sirius also mentions how he caught Kreacher snogging some of his parents clothes (fathers trousers?), and I think this further enforces that clothes have to be given the elf by the master. jm2k, of course.
Herm-own-ninny Weezly - Jul 5, 2005 2:21 pm (#1643 of 2486)
I don't think all of the students could be the masters... That would result in so many different messages that it would be chaos. Imagine if someone like Draco Malfoy knew he could control the Hogwarts house elves. He would use them to cause any possible problem for Dumbledore. Or even Fred and George... they could have told the house elves to make life even more difficult for Umbridge by sending her dung for breakfast!
That brings me to an interesting thought. Would Umbridge have become their new master when Dumbledore left, or were they left without a master?
MickeyCee3948 - Jul 5, 2005 5:15 pm (#1644 of 2486)
Seems like Dobby though Umbridge was the master when he was telling Harry about the raid on the meeting. He was punishing himself rather serverely.
Mickey
Solitaire - Jul 5, 2005 6:20 pm (#1645 of 2486)
But remember ... once he figured out what was going on, Harry forbade (is that right?) Dobby to punish himself for telling!
Solitaire
MickeyCee3948 - Jul 5, 2005 6:23 pm (#1646 of 2486)
Don't ask me if spelling is right, your the teacher. But Harry did tell Dobby he was not to punish himself anymore. See I avoid those hard words.
Mickey
Solitaire - Jul 5, 2005 6:41 pm (#1647 of 2486)
hehe Mickey! I'm on vacation! No, actually I did check it, and that is the correct usage. It just sounds funny ... probably because I so rarely hear anyone use the expression anymore. I only see it used in Victorian-era literature.
On the topic, I have wondered something about Dobby and the other elves. Are they bound to serve the "rightful head," or are they bound to Hogwarts itself in some way? And if Dobby is paid, then why does he engage in the self-punishing behavior? Are some things just too deeply ingrained to stop altogether?
Solitaire
Edit: Actually it isn't on the topic, is it? It's on House-elves, not Hermione! Grrrrr!
Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 5, 2005 8:43 pm (#1648 of 2486)
I am sure Hermione has looked it all up but we know Elves are bound by enchantments of their own kind. I'm not sure if Dobby is free of that. What exactly holds the elves to servitude? LPO
Mrs Brisbee - Jul 6, 2005 6:32 am (#1649 of 2486)
In book 4 Hermione tried to organize wizards to help free house elves. When that didn't work she switched tactics, and in book 5 she tried to free elves by tricking them into picking up clothes. I think she will have realized that that idea didn't work, and in book 6 I think she will move on to some new tactic to help the elves. She has the right idea, and is learning the right way to go about it by trial and error. I think she'll keep adapting and trying new things until she is on the right track.
Paulus Maximus - Jul 6, 2005 9:09 am (#1650 of 2486)
It must have sobered her to see... what I talked about earlier...
She knows that tricking the elves into freedom doesn't work now, so I agree with Mrs Brisbee.
Thanks Ladybug. Guess it could go either way. No wonder the purebloods feel threatened. They aren't so special after all. LPO
Liz Mann - Jul 1, 2005 6:18 am (#1602 of 2486)
Although they would never admit that in a million years.
Ponine - Jul 2, 2005 5:45 pm (#1603 of 2486)
This is such a great discussion! I have personally never had a problem with Hermione's hexed parchment. This is not charms club, or a game of exploding snap. All of these kids have been told that LV is back, Cedric died, and Umbridge hates Harry with a passion. Whether they want to believe LV has returned or not, this group is in fact founded in part due to their discontent with Dolores' methods, and they should all be fairly aware of the fact that the DA must remain a secret; informing Umbie for instance could certainly lead to death or even worse, expelled... Now, signing your name on a piece of paper absolutely indicates consent and understanding of the situation. Marietta risked not only her best friend (or at least a good one), but the expulsion of about twenty of her fellow students! After training with them extensively for many months! And for this, she gets pimples. Oh my. I am inclined to believe that some faculty may have considered the spots a nifty bit of magic, much like the swamp, and choosing not to put their removal on the top of their to do list. I am confident that they will be removed, sooner rather than later, but that nobody dropped all they had in their hands to get around to it...
As far as Hermione is concerned, I don't think she was in the wrong to do what she did. As I mentioned above, this is a very serious matter, where Ron and Hermione really have stuck their neck out; they could easily have benefitted from Harry's knowledge privately and no one would ever have known. Rather, they risk sharing what they consider important skills, and in the process putting their education at Hogwarts in their fellow DAs hands. I think that the pimples/postules/bumps/boils/zits serve multiple purposes. First of all, it immediately alerts that the members may be in danger. Secondly, it effectively indicates who may have done this. Third, it must be considered a non-harmful, yet powerful message to Marietta, that I am sure she will learn from in the long run.
Finally, about the elves, I am torn. I do not appreciate how she 'baits' the elves, but I see this as misguided kindness more than anything else. I believe Ron and Harry feel the same way, as none of them really confront her, not even after Harry realizes Dobby is the only one who will go to Gryffindor. The thing is - what if Hermione does have a point? I mean, historically, suppressed groups as a whole have not always welcomed change, for various reasons. Somehow, I think the elves need to be properly informed and make their own individual decisions, but I am not sure Hermione is the right person to do so. While I am inclined to believe that Ron's attitude towards them are a bit too casual, change may almost have to occur generationally, I think... Oh gosh - this is way long, I am sorry... :/
Solitaire - Jul 2, 2005 6:45 pm (#1604 of 2486)
Nice post, Ponine!
Ydnam96 - Jul 2, 2005 7:03 pm (#1605 of 2486)
Ponine, I agree wholeheartedly about the DA and all that. I also agree about the house elves. I think Hermione means well, and would never conciously do anything to hurt or harm them, but she doesn't understand all of the political and other issues surronding their existence within the wizarding world. I really do think that this will play into the future of the book.
The giant squid - Jul 2, 2005 11:10 pm (#1606 of 2486)
Ponine, I have only one thing to say about your post: "Umbie"??
MickeyCee3948 - Jul 3, 2005 8:04 am (#1607 of 2486)
I agree with the giant squid "Umbie"??? Please, that makes her sound almost nifty and cool. As far as the rest of your post Ponine, I totally agree with you, very well put.
Mickey
Emiko - Jul 3, 2005 9:05 am (#1608 of 2486)
Ponine, I think you have a good point about other oppressed groups resisting change. At the same time, if they really do want to work, they should be welcome to. I think all that the elves need to be given the rights and freedoms to be paid and/or leave their masters, but they do not have to do either if they do not so wish. I agree with Hermione that they are terribly under-represented in the Ministry (either by an elf, or by a spokesperson who speaks for their best interests)
Weeny Owl - Jul 3, 2005 9:42 am (#1609 of 2486)
One of my problems with Hermione's campaign to free House-Elves is that she hasn't stopped to think about the economic impact freedom will have on their lives.
Dobby said he wandered the country for two years and couldn't find work because people didn't want to pay. If Hermione truly freed hundreds of House-Elves from Hogwarts, what would the economic impact be for them? Dumbledore would pay them, I'm sure, but if they left because they thought they weren't wanted, they might not bother asking him. Hermione could ruin quite a few little lives if she isn't careful.
Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 3, 2005 11:49 am (#1610 of 2486)
Part of the problem is a lack of cultural understanding. Hermione is adamant that freedom, wages, vacations, are right and just. She is forcing her belief system on another culture. The House Elves find those ideas insulting and alien to their culture. I agree Weeny Owl Hermione could ruin a lot of lives. A free society is based on diversity. It allows for different groups to have their own customs and cultures. Even if the mainstream does not agree with those. That is very difficult to do. LPO
Solitaire - Jul 3, 2005 1:28 pm (#1611 of 2486)
If the House-elves were to revolt en mass, the Ministry would be forced to enact some sort of legislation about wages, because I doubt those who'd grown used to House-elves would want to do the work themselves. But trying to put things right AFTER they are already in a state of chaos is terribly difficult.
In order for the liberation of the House-elves work, there would have to be legislation in place--as well as a program of education for the elves and Wizards alike--BEFORE everything got underway, I should think. If the House-elves do not want to be freed and do not understand the concept of freedom, nothing is going to work. Such things take time; they cannot happen overnight.
I believe Hermione has good intentions with regard to the elves. Alas, like most people, she fails to take all of the above factors into consideration. She does not understand the sense of pride the elves feel in their work. She also does not understand that elves like Winky, for example, feel a strong sense of love and devotion to their families.
It's easy to understand why Dobby would want to be free of the Malfoys, if the rest of the family treat him like Lucius treated him. Kreacher is demented, so IMO he is not a good indicator of elves in general. Winky, however, seemed to have a great deal of responsibility and trust placed in her by Barty Sr. She undoubtedly felt as if she were part of the Crouch family. To be suddenly "divorced" from them--for her dismissal was similar to that--must have been a horribly difficult and cruel blow to understand.
There are a lot of variables that Hermione needs to understand before she goes blazing in and starts to turn things upside down. I think she has potential, if she would take some coaching by Dumbledore or McGonagall ... or even Dobby. She needs to learn patience ... not easy for a young person!
Solitaire
timrew - Jul 3, 2005 3:05 pm (#1612 of 2486)
Dolly Umbie - a cool witch!
Ponine - Jul 3, 2005 5:05 pm (#1613 of 2486)
Thank you so much for your kind words! It means so much to me when someone actually agrees with me in here, as you all are so insightful both to Potterverse and life in general...
Mike and Mickey - I am sorry about the Umbie, and it will not happen again - it was merely a case of my mind going quicker than fingers, and wanting to keep up.. would Dumbie be better? Voldebridge?
Weeny, I agree with you in that a significant change in the house-elves' situation would have broad ramifications for the WW as a whole, but I don't think Hermione can be expected to consider these aspects at her age, regardless of intellect. I see her as young, passionate and idealistic, striving to make the world a better place.. (those were the days...)
Solitaire - precisely! Wonderful post!
Weeny Owl - Jul 3, 2005 8:25 pm (#1614 of 2486)
She is definitely all of that, Ponine, but someone older and wiser (McGonagall, Dumbledore?) needs to sit her down and explain the possible ramifications of what she is trying to do.
Hermione is showing a great deal of disrespect to the House-Elves. By wanting to free them, good intentions aside, she's telling them she doesn't appreciate the work they do, and that they don't belong at Hogwarts... at least that's how they see it. It isn't really too far from how some people (Draco, for instance) treat her.
She is young, yes. She is passionate, yes. She is idealistic, yes. She just needs to realize before she does any true harm that what she thinks is best for someone isn't necessarily what truly IS best.
Ydnam96 - Jul 3, 2005 9:52 pm (#1615 of 2486)
Weeny Owl, I think you are correct in your assessment of Hermione's need to think further about the situation than she has. She is seeing things from a very Western/Modern point of view.
However, I must disagree with you on one point. Economic impact, while a legitimate concern, as far as something that would need to be dealt with, should NOT be a hindarance to making sure that all beings are given free will. I'm not sure I said that in the right way, but basically if all other issues were taken care of and the only thing standing in the way of the house elves being treated more fairly and equally by the WW was the economic impact it would have I would have to say that the well being of a living creature, it's freedom to choose it's own life style and living conditions, are far more important than economics.
Without getting too polictical: the US economy survived the emancipation. For people to stop doing something that is right for money is wrong.
Now I don't mean to say that there aren't other considerations that do impact the issue. Number one being that the house elves, with few exceptions, like the way they live and would quite possibly choose to stay where they were if given the choice between "freedom" and their current situation. But, I think Hermione does have a point in that they may not know what it is they are missing because that is how their lives have been for so long. I think if there were a way to educate the house elves about their choices and get the rest of the wizarding world on board then the best thing would be to let the house elves choose their own future.
Sorry that was long...and very much my personal opinion.
Solitaire - Jul 3, 2005 11:34 pm (#1616 of 2486)
the US economy survived the emancipation
Yes, it did ... but I'm really thinking more about some of the horrific things that happened to the people themselves after the war ... at the hands of some of their former masters. The slaves may have been freed by the war, but freed to do what? They were resented by most of the white population, blamed for all manner of crimes--as though crime had never existed in the South before slaves were freed!--and targeted for hate crimes. No one wanted to pay for their labor when they could get convict labor much more cheaply.
Do you suppose former slaves who continued to work for their former masters ever got fair pay for their labor? I've often wondered ... did Rhett and Scarlett Butler pay wages to Mammy, Prissy, and Pork?
Solitaire
Ydnam96 - Jul 4, 2005 6:49 am (#1617 of 2486)
You are right, there would have to be very strict guidlines and such put in place. I don't think things were "fair" or done correctly after the war here.
I just don't think the fate of one's economy should stand in the way of humane treatment. You can fix the economy but oppression of a people (or house elves) is wrong and if it can be fixed it should be (no matter what the economic fallout)
In my head I'm thinking, the only families that have house elves are the families that can afford to hire help, as they are almost all traditionally wealthy established pure blood wizards. So if the house elves were given the choice to work for wages and given magical rights (wand usage and such) then really the only people who get "hurt" are the rich. Who can afford to pay the house elves anyway. Plus that actually puts money into the economy- through the house elves, clothing, wands, other such things they don't use or buy now.
All this of course depends on if that population feels they are being mistreated. Which is a whole 'nother debate.
Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 4, 2005 8:12 am (#1618 of 2486)
Harry was able to free Dobby because he knew Dobby wanted to be freed. Hermione has not met a House Elf that needed her help to be freed. In order for the House Elves to be freed they have to want it. Slaves in the US had to fight for their freedom. If Hermione really wants to help she would recreate S.P.E.W. to help Elves who want to be freed. It would be a House Elf Underground Railway. LPO
Weeny Owl - Jul 4, 2005 10:41 am (#1619 of 2486)
Economic impact, while a legitimate concern, as far as something that would need to be dealt with, should NOT be a hindarance to making sure that all beings are given free will.
I should have made myself clearer... I meant the economic impact to the House-Elves themselves and not the Wizarding World. It was Dobby looking for work for two years that I was thinking of. If Hermione freed hundreds of elves, what would they do? Where would they go? How would they live? Dobby did, but Dobby is unusual.
HungarianHorntail11 - Jul 4, 2005 11:16 am (#1620 of 2486)
Ponine, great points and a great post.
Ydnam96, I agree. Unfortunately, in many situations, money dictates over humane treatment (hence, the south resistance). It is only when masses are brought to the realization of something when it is challenged. At this juncture, Dobby is the only elf we know of who wanted to be free. Weeny Owl, if all elves were freed, there would be a need to hire their services. As Ydnam96 compared the emancipation in the US, many slaves were taken aback at the thought of leaving their masters. (Sound like any house-elves you know?) Many were also afraid of any backlash if their efforts failed.
DD's reaction seems to lend thought to the idea that Hermoine is on the right track. The fountain seemed like a foreshadowing of how the elves may eventually help the very people who kept them enslaved for so long (wizards and witches in general). Although she may have an arduous road ahead of her, it may well serve the Order and those on the side of good in this war in the long run.
Weeny Owl - Jul 4, 2005 11:20 am (#1621 of 2486)
Weeny Owl, if all elves were freed, there would be a need to hire their services.
Not necessarily. I'm sure some wizarding families would hire back their elves, and I can't see Dumbledore not paying Hogwarts House-Elves, but people are stubborn and don't like being forced into something, particularly when it involves their pocketbooks.
But even so, Hermione still needs to consider more than just her desire to free the elves and think about what they want instead of forcing her opinions on an entire society.
Paulus Maximus - Jul 4, 2005 11:24 am (#1622 of 2486)
I'm sure Hermione got a wake up call when she saw that Dobby had been taking all of her hats and socks...
I just wish I knew how that affected her view on house elves... I guess we'll find out soon enough.
Joanne R. Reid - Jul 4, 2005 11:31 am (#1623 of 2486)
Hi,
I just posted this on the House-elf thread. I thought it might be apropos here as well.
"I was just thinking about the attributes of a happy house-elf.
1. Gainfully employed.
2. Employed by a good family.
3. Trusted with the family's secrets.
4. Responsible for the health, welfare and happiness of the family.
5. Responsible for the protection of the family.
6. Performs duties without being noticed.
7. On call 24/7 for any purpose, large or small.
8. Needed by the family.
9. Properly enslaved by their family.
10. Proud of begin in servitude to their family.
I'm sure there are other attributes, but these leapt off the top of my head. It doesn't seem to me that any of these atrributes are consistent with freedom, self-will or independence."
To my way of thinking, Hermione is on the wrong track completely. She has imposed her values, morals, tenets, dogmae and thoughts into a completely strange and foreign realm, about which she knows nothing. She has assumed that, because she is intellectually gifted and perhaps one of the most powerful witches of her time, she is infallible.
For once in her life, books are not going to guide her. She must do the one thing that Hermione is incapable of doing: she must consult with and listen to the wants, needs and desires of others. She can't shout them down. She can't show them up. The can't get better grades than they do or use any of her other standard means of coping.
Until and unless, Hermione sits down with a bunch of House-elves, listens to them and comes to understand their anthropological role in the WW, she will be heading towards disappointment. Worse, by her actions she could even force the House-Elves to support Voldemort against the WW. After all, Voldemort and his DEs want House-Elves to remain in their present roles.
She has the opportunity at Hogwarts to meet with and to listen to more than one hundred House-Elves. Perhaps, Dumbledore, Harry or even Dobby will become her mentor in this endeavor.
Thanks,
Aqualu Nifey - Jul 4, 2005 2:35 pm (#1624 of 2486)
=D This is like a Harry Potter C-SPAN or something.... So great!
While I sorta agree with you, Joanne, I think that's kinda harsh. She wants to do the right thing, but she's going about it the wrong way. It's wonderful that she's helping out the House - Elves, but I think that she should go talk to them a little bit more and not be so insistent that they see her point of view right away. She should find one of the Elves who's willing to talk it out with her and address concepts individually. If she dumps it all on them at once, they're going to get freaked out and won't want any part of it. Just needs to take it slow for now. Then when she's done talking to the House Elves, she should then bring up what they want to the Ministry of Magic and THEN shout and push her views and be passionate.
Ponine - Jul 4, 2005 2:54 pm (#1625 of 2486)
Hmm... Employment indicates a paid job... Thus, in my humble opinion, your first two points are less than accurate. Joanne, I agree with many of your points, and with the exception of the employment part, I like them.
I am not sure I agree with the rest, however. In my opinion, one could draw parallels between Hermione's mission and the endless attempts by various western nations to assimilate various indingenous peoples at various times. Without much thought as to whether your subjects feel in need of help, want of help or even remotely desire help, one barges in with grand ideas of revolutionizing their world as they know it and make it all better. I maintain that history is littered with people older and wiser who have done what Hermione does. (I am not even going to get into all the ones who went in for less than idealistic reasons; but I think we all are aware of the fact that more often than not, money, labor, or goods were more enticing than improving other's living conditions).
My biggest concern is that Hermione might not be wrong. Joanne mentions how none of the points she listed are consistent with freedom, self-will or independence, and this is precisely what bothers me. Does the average house-elf in reality have sufficient knowledge to make decision about what freedom is and what it could be? If freedom has been defined generations ago as a disgrace, should it be redefined before allowed rejected? I would certainly not stop you from burning books, if this is what you want to do, but if you can't read - is it my responsibility to teach you to read before burning, so that you know what you are turning your back to? And how did I ever tangle myself up in this?
Aqualu Nifey - Jul 4, 2005 3:23 pm (#1626 of 2486)
"Does the average house-elf in reality have sufficient knowledge to make decision about freedom is and what it could be?" - Ponine
That's why I think Solitaire (was it Solitaire?) was right in saying that there need to be reforms in education for House - Elves and Wizards before anything is done about a house-elf's freedom.
Ms Amanda - Jul 4, 2005 3:48 pm (#1627 of 2486)
Perhaps, instead of pushing the elves to reform, Hermione needs to reform the elf-owners.
Much like U.S. humane treatment of animals movements, there should be enforcement of the healthy, safe environment for house-elves. Included in this reform should be mandatory education of elves that includes elf history, but perhaps not including cultural bias that would involve pressing elves to freedom. If owners were found to be lax in the well-being of elves, such as owning mal-nourished or beaten elves, even if the punishment were self-inflicted, there would be warning systems and finally compulsory removal of the elves. Elves who wished to be freed, as Dobby did, would be much more easily identified, and elves would be educated as to the process for release. If an elf did not wish to be removed, self-punishments would be reduced, I would think.
I'm surprised that Hermione has not thought of this. Really, changing the elves' minds would not do a thing right now because they cannot free themselves if they wished to. Plus, Hogwarts elves do not wish to leave DD, and they find the hats and scarves insulting. After all, they have been educated to believe that freedom is equal to removal from service and removal from service is equal to being disowned for bad behavior. It is an insult to them to offer them freedom!
As a logical person, Hermione should be able to figure this out for herself. Hermione does not seem to be able to reconcile her emotions with logic as she does with, for example, Cho to Ron and Harry. She may not need a mentor; she needs to sit down and analyze why her methods are not working.
Ponine - Jul 4, 2005 5:35 pm (#1628 of 2486)
Aqualy - yes, I really like Solitaire's thoughts on the matter too - I meant to get to that as well, but I sort of talked myself away...
Say, I was just thinking, and I am not sure whether I am incredibly dense, and that this is common knowledge among the rest of you, or if I actually am on to something - Hermione left all sorts of assorted knitted apparel about Gryffindor Tower. Dobby later informs Harry that he is now the only one who will go up there to clean, as the other elves are insulted by the hidden clothes and refuse. Now, on my first - ten or so rereads, I thought nothing of it; of course it was insulting, she tried to free them against her will. but then, just tonight after my last post, it struck me that I never entertained the notion that it also, is completely in vain on her part, and in theory taunting to the elves. I mean - all of a sudden, I don't understand why Hermione seems convinced that any of her clothes could free them? Harry could not free Dobby, could he? Lucius Malfoy had to, right? So, would not Dumbledore, possibly Filch or someone in charge of the kitchens have to be the presenter of clothes? I mean, if Hermione really thinks that the elves wishes to be free, how cruel it must be to leave them little tokens of freedom that mean nothing at all? (Fortunately, I do not think Hogwarts elves are in that position, but nontheless, I could see how a little girl trying to free them against their will, without even realizing that she has no power to do so could be somewhat offensive...) Input, anyone?? Input, anyone
sere35 - Jul 4, 2005 6:52 pm (#1629 of 2486)
Did anyone suggest that the wizards made the house elfs magically for the sole purpose of cleaning and taking care of a family. If that is the case it my be magically in their nature to do so and they can't get out of it.
Or maybe they as a race did something so bad they were cursed into serving the wizarding community that they wronged.
sere35 - Jul 4, 2005 6:57 pm (#1630 of 2486)
Ponine I though that same thing the first time I read that. I kept saying to myself is someone going to tell Hermoine she is wasting her time. That she has no authority to release the house elves.
LooneyLuna - Jul 5, 2005 6:04 am (#1631 of 2486)
When Hermione made a Christmas present for Kreacher, Ron says, "It better not be clothes." So, maybe if an elf is presented with clothes in the house of their Master, they are freed, but outside the home, only the Master can free them with clothes. That's the only explanation I can come up with for Hermione being able to free the Hogwart's elves. Being Hermione, she had to find a loophole around the Master.
I agree, Hermione is going about it the wrong way.
Mrs Brisbee - Jul 5, 2005 6:29 am (#1632 of 2486)
Perhaps, instead of pushing the elves to reform, Hermione needs to reform the elf-owners. --Ms Amanda
I think you're right about this. And also all wizards and witches whether they have a house elf or not. Kind of like the abolition movement in the U.S. often aimed their arguments against slavery at the people who were already free and were in the best position to help if they could be persuaded.
Whether or not the house elves actually want to continue being enslaved (how weird it is to say such a thing) really doesn't excuse the Wizarding World's behavior towards them.
wwtMask - Jul 5, 2005 7:06 am (#1633 of 2486)
After considering the discussion of the past few days, I've come to a startling conclusion: Hermione is right. Startling, right? Here's why I think so.
First, house elves cannot have always been the servants(slaves) of wizards; at some point in the far past the enslavement happened and is now accepted as the natural order. House elves, I believe, are conditioned to not only accept their enslavement but to prefer it as a lifestyle. It is ingrained in their culture. Thus far the argument against SPEW is that Hermione is ignoring the desires of the house elves but, I contend, the attitude of the house elves towards their own freedom is suspect due to this conditioning. Her efforts to re-introduce the concept of wanting freedom to them were, I think, on the right track (after all, most 'subversive' ideas aren't accepted very easily). She's fighting a culture of enslavement, though so far it's been mainly aimed at one side of the issue.
Which brings me to the next point: regardless of whether house elves desire their freedom, the wizarding world is wrong for allowing the enslavement to continue and should end the practice immediately. Again, this is a culture issue. I think a lot of wizards may think the house elf situation is embarrassing or wrong, but they shrug their shoulders and say "that's how it's always been" or "they like it" (Ron!). This is a morally bankrupt position that hinges on the desires of the enslaved, desires which have been conditioned to fit with the desires of the enslavers! If these wizards believe that slavery is wrong they should advocate for the end of it, if for no other reason than to absolve wizard-kind of the moral burden! Their silent opposition is nothing more than an implicit approval of the embarrassing institution. This is a point that I think Hermione understands, though I wish she put more effort into swaying humans on this issue than house elves. After all, the house elves have no power over laws.
I'm really not surprised that Hermione has taken up this mantle. She has the perspective of an outsider, a sense of justice for all, and the intelligence to carry out a campaign against this injustice. We should not be asking why Hermione is so stubborn on the issue; we should be asking why all of the other wizards, wizards we like/admire, are so silent and passive on an issue that has no grey areas. Slavery is wrong and should be stopped wherever found. If these were humans and not elves, would there be the same complacency?
On another note, regarding Marietta, the parchment, and the DA: as discussed on the edgecombed Marietta thread, Marietta probably thought that telling umbridge about the DA would only result in the expelling of Harry, not the others. Considering how hard Umbridge was trying to get Harry, I believe that she was correct in thinking so. In their zeal to get Harry, I'm sure that the others would have gotten slaps on the wrist from Umbridge (exceptions being Hermione and the Weasleys). This could probably explain why Cho was so forgiving; no doubt she had worked that much out and, since no one got caught, she wanted to give her best friend the benefit of the doubt. Besides, she's always been jealous of Hermione's close relationship with Harry...but that's another thread.
HungarianHorntail11 - Jul 5, 2005 9:36 am (#1634 of 2486)
I think you put the SPEW situation well, wwtMask. Changes as big as this do not come without opposition. (Look at the US Civil War.) It has to start somewhere. Also, I am not so sure how the clothing-freedom bind is broken. I am sure we will be seeing more of this in future books, as it seems Hermoine is just getting started.
If Marietta was indeed thinking it would only result in Harry's expulsion, well, then what kind of a person accepts something (valuable lessons, in this case) from someone, then betrays that person? Not one of good moral fiber, I'd say.
Solitaire - Jul 5, 2005 9:37 am (#1635 of 2486)
I don't know, Mask ... Even if Cho had worked out that Marietta probably figured Harry was "the only one" who would be hurt by her actions, so what? It's okay to betray a group of people as long as you're reasonably sure that the only one who will be seriously harmed by your actions is the one you hate anyway?
It seems to me that if Marietta did have that mindset, then she more or less put Cho in the position of having to choose between Marietta and Harry--although Harry and Cho were pretty rocky at that point. Still, real friends do not ask other friends to make choices like that. Well, I never did. I just accepted that my best friend had a close friendship with a formerly good friend whom I could no longer trust. I was always careful not to put her in the position of feeling like she had to choose between me and my former friend, and I was careful not to bad-mouth the ex-friend who'd betrayed me.
On another note ... Harry could not free Dobby, could he? Lucius Malfoy had to, right?
I've been wondering about this all along. Hermione has said "Harry freed Dobby"; but he didn't. Lucius did, when he tossed that sock. As smart as Hermione is about most things, she is incredibly dense on this point. She does not seem to make the distinction. She has no jurisdiction over the elves. I suppose she can ask them for help with things (or could, once upon a time), but she doesn't "own" them ... hence, she is not authorized to set them free.
A thought ... could that be why Kreacher continued to hang around the Black house even though Sirius was in prison and everyone else was dead? Was it because there was no one around to set him free? (I realize they could not free him once the Order moved in, as he knew too much.) Just wondering ...
Solitaire
HungarianHorntail11 - Jul 5, 2005 9:51 am (#1636 of 2486)
Regarding Kreacher, that is what I always thought, Solitaire.
wwtMask - Jul 5, 2005 10:13 am (#1637 of 2486)
Perhaps (and this is really reaching) Hermione intends to increase the house elves' desire for clothing (as opposed to freedom, which clearly is a battle uphill pulling a boulder while wearing roller skates). She can't free them per se, but maybe she thinks the clothing will carry its own subliminal message/symbolism?
Solitaire: I wasn't agreeing with what Marietta did (as you recall from the Marietta thread, I was pretty anti-Marietta), I was just pointing out what probably went through her mind. She didn't like Harry, was probably jealous of the attention her best friend was giving him, and probably felt pressured (this may or may not have actually been the case) to not cross Umbridge. Her reasoning for going to Umbridge wasn't illogical; I believe Umbridge would have let someone get away with murder (literally) at Hogwarts if it meant she could somehow expel Harry. What she did was despicable and short-sighted, no doubt, but the negative consequences (sans curse, of course) would have been purely to Harry's detriment, not her own.
Solitaire - Jul 5, 2005 10:27 am (#1638 of 2486)
Actually, Mask, I agree with that part. What I find weird is Cho's seeming acceptance of it all--assuming (a) that it was Marietta's reasoning and (b) that Cho had knowledge of it.
Solitaire
wwtMask - Jul 5, 2005 10:39 am (#1639 of 2486)
Well, I can imagine Cho's train of thoughts on the subject. First, she was probably relieved that she and the others weren't getting in trouble. Next, since she hadn't gotten in trouble, her anger at her friend was soon replaced by concern for Marietta's condition. Realizing that the condition was a result of the parchment, her simmering jealousy of Hermione found an outlet by blaming Hermione for what happened to her friend (incidentally, I think that Cho's jealousy of Hermione stems from both her close relationship to Harry AND the fact that Hermione is clearly more clever than Cho; smart people can be very envious of smarter people). I don't believe that Cho was aware of her friend's plans, otherwise she wouldn't have been at the DA meeting that night. In the end, I think Cho easily forgave her friend because there wasn't too much immediate harm as far as she could tell, because she would take Marietta's side over Hermione's any day, and because she was concerned for Marietta's condition. I think she could tell that her supposed relationship with Harry was on the way out anyway, so her loyalty would naturally fall to her best friend.
Solitaire - Jul 5, 2005 10:44 am (#1640 of 2486)
Any further comment on Cho's role should, I suppose, be taken to Cho's thread.
Paulus Maximus - Jul 5, 2005 1:46 pm (#1641 of 2486)
I am sure that if Harry could give an order to a house elf employed by Dumbledore, Hermione could set them free...
The house elves treat practically every student they have met as their masters (perhaps excepting Hermione), so perhaps the students ARE their masters...
Ponine - Jul 5, 2005 2:14 pm (#1642 of 2486)
Solitaire - It makes a lot of sense to me that Kreacher would not be in a position to leave Grimmauld Place without Sirius, his inherited master present to let him go. I always assumed Kreacher hung around due to the portrait of his old mistress, and I am sure that was a positive factor for him, but additionally, he was probably obligated to stay.
And Paulus, I am still not so sure that Hermione could set them free. Winky and Dobby have treated everyone with extreme amounts of respect, also while still with Crouch and Malfoy. I agree with Soli in that Hermione has made a huge oversight in this case, and that the elves relationship and treatment of students would probably be similar to that of Kreacher and the young Black children back in the days - they would absolutely be obeyed and served, but had no power to dismiss him. Sirius also mentions how he caught Kreacher snogging some of his parents clothes (fathers trousers?), and I think this further enforces that clothes have to be given the elf by the master. jm2k, of course.
Herm-own-ninny Weezly - Jul 5, 2005 2:21 pm (#1643 of 2486)
I don't think all of the students could be the masters... That would result in so many different messages that it would be chaos. Imagine if someone like Draco Malfoy knew he could control the Hogwarts house elves. He would use them to cause any possible problem for Dumbledore. Or even Fred and George... they could have told the house elves to make life even more difficult for Umbridge by sending her dung for breakfast!
That brings me to an interesting thought. Would Umbridge have become their new master when Dumbledore left, or were they left without a master?
MickeyCee3948 - Jul 5, 2005 5:15 pm (#1644 of 2486)
Seems like Dobby though Umbridge was the master when he was telling Harry about the raid on the meeting. He was punishing himself rather serverely.
Mickey
Solitaire - Jul 5, 2005 6:20 pm (#1645 of 2486)
But remember ... once he figured out what was going on, Harry forbade (is that right?) Dobby to punish himself for telling!
Solitaire
MickeyCee3948 - Jul 5, 2005 6:23 pm (#1646 of 2486)
Don't ask me if spelling is right, your the teacher. But Harry did tell Dobby he was not to punish himself anymore. See I avoid those hard words.
Mickey
Solitaire - Jul 5, 2005 6:41 pm (#1647 of 2486)
hehe Mickey! I'm on vacation! No, actually I did check it, and that is the correct usage. It just sounds funny ... probably because I so rarely hear anyone use the expression anymore. I only see it used in Victorian-era literature.
On the topic, I have wondered something about Dobby and the other elves. Are they bound to serve the "rightful head," or are they bound to Hogwarts itself in some way? And if Dobby is paid, then why does he engage in the self-punishing behavior? Are some things just too deeply ingrained to stop altogether?
Solitaire
Edit: Actually it isn't on the topic, is it? It's on House-elves, not Hermione! Grrrrr!
Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 5, 2005 8:43 pm (#1648 of 2486)
I am sure Hermione has looked it all up but we know Elves are bound by enchantments of their own kind. I'm not sure if Dobby is free of that. What exactly holds the elves to servitude? LPO
Mrs Brisbee - Jul 6, 2005 6:32 am (#1649 of 2486)
In book 4 Hermione tried to organize wizards to help free house elves. When that didn't work she switched tactics, and in book 5 she tried to free elves by tricking them into picking up clothes. I think she will have realized that that idea didn't work, and in book 6 I think she will move on to some new tactic to help the elves. She has the right idea, and is learning the right way to go about it by trial and error. I think she'll keep adapting and trying new things until she is on the right track.
Paulus Maximus - Jul 6, 2005 9:09 am (#1650 of 2486)
It must have sobered her to see... what I talked about earlier...
She knows that tricking the elves into freedom doesn't work now, so I agree with Mrs Brisbee.
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Solitaire - Jul 6, 2005 9:43 am (#1651 of 2486)
At the risk of sounding hopelessly Muggle, why doesn't she just talk WITH (not at) them? If I were Hermione, I would ask Dobby if he would be willing to talk with me.
The first thing I would ask is for an explanation of how and why the elves came to be enslaved in the first place. I think this is the key to anything she hopes to achieve. If she does not understand the terms, reasons, and structure of their enslavement, she is not going to get very far.
Next, I would ask him why the elves seem so resistant to freedom. I would ask him to talk to them and find out their specific concerns. I would then do some research to see if there were a way to address those concerns and relieve their fears.
Once I had my information, I would want to speak directly with the elves, and I would enlist Dobby to be my helper in this. As I've said before, Hermione is a smart girl, yet she seems a bit dense in her House-elf liberation efforts. I think it is a result of her tendency to want to do everything herself. Alas, this is an endeavor which will require not only the understanding and support of the House-elves themselves, but the cooperation and re-education of the entire Wizarding community--including the House-elves. She has her work cut out for her.
Solitaire
Denise P. - Jul 6, 2005 10:46 am (#1652 of 2486)
Even if Hermione did talk to the elves, I doubt she would really hear what they are saying. She is very firm in her mind that she is "right" in what she is doing. Because of that, I don't think she will truly believe them saying they want to remain enslaved...obviously they don't know any better and if they would just give it a chance, they would be so much happier. I think some major foundation shaking is going to have to take place if Hermione is ever going to see that she is approaching it incorrectly.
Hermione is a very clever little witch but she does have her faults and SPEW is the showcase of one of them.
wwtMask - Jul 6, 2005 11:03 am (#1653 of 2486)
I think her best approach will be to ignore the house elves completely. They have no power so their opinions are pretty useless. Instead, she should focus on convincing wizards to end the slavery. If she can ever achieve that, the house elves will be forced to accept and come to terms with freedom.
Gerald Costales - Jul 7, 2005 10:03 am (#1654 of 2486)
So many of these recent posts are more House-Elf thread material than Hermione thread material. That being said, I know I have been guilty of posting these type of posts on other threads.
IMHO, SPEW exists to show how important the House-Elves are. Will SPEW or Hermione free the House-Elves in either Book 6 or 7? Probably not. My take has been that there are a 100 House-Elves at Hogwarts that are bound to Dumbledore or Hogwarts. Will these 100 follow Dumbledore’s orders in the present War or defend Hogwarts if attacked? Yes.
Hermione will have Advanced classes, NEWTs and of course will be helping Harry in Books 6 & 7, so even Hermione will be spending less time in regards to SPEW. (And don’t forget Herimone may have a budding romance with Ron (ugh) or Harry (grin). Herimone forget Viktor!!!)
Did Herimone’s punishment of Marietta go a little too far. Maybe. I forgot that with Hermione’s hospital stay at the end of Book 5, that removing Marietta’s purple pimples was probably just an oversight by Hermione. Hermione had Rita Skeeter in a jar at the end of Book 4, so Hermione just doesn’t rush to the aid of her enemies. Rita was very much un-beetle-like when we saw Rita again in Book 5. So, Marietta should be pimple free when or if we see Marietta in Book 6.
If a Hermione vs. Cho rivalry still exists in Book 6, I don’t see it centering on Harry. I still see the DA existing in Book 6 and both Hermione and Cho are the only students besides Harry that can perform the Patronus Charm. So it should be an Otter vs. Swan showdown over the leadership of the DA in Book 6. In regards to the future DA, I think the Swan will soar while the Otter is mired.
Of course it could be Hermione vs. Cho in regards to Ron’s affection. Ron does fancy pretty older woman. Ron fancied Fleur and the movies have Hermione saying Ron fancies Madame Rosemerta. Ron wake up and look at Hermione you git!!! But, Ron‘s lost could be Harry‘s gain.
A week and half to HBP. ;-) GC
wwtMask - Jul 7, 2005 10:12 am (#1655 of 2486)
Cho vs Hermione for Ron? That'd be very interesting and plausible, assuming Cho still cares about Harry (using Ron to make him jealous). The trio are so strongly bonded now, having gone through their various rough spots and life threatening adventures, that her plan would fail miserably as the three of them close ranks.
wwtMask - Aug 1, 2005 12:25 pm (#1656 of 2486)
Well, we can see from HBP that Marietta's spots are still there. No one is angry at Hermione over it that we can tell and no one seems to concerned that the spots can't be cured. No one made any effort towards retaliation at all, not that I really expected anyone to after Voldemort revealed himself. I'd say that the issue is good and truly dead. This just goes to show you that sometimes we bear the marks of our mistakes. I think she may have learned that lesson.
Mrs Brisbee - Aug 1, 2005 12:51 pm (#1657 of 2486)
Well, we can see from HBP that Marietta's spots are still there. No one is angry at Hermione over it that we can tell and no one seems to concerned that the spots can't be cured. No one made any effort towards retaliation at all, not that I really expected anyone to after Voldemort revealed himself. I'd say that the issue is good and truly dead. This just goes to show you that sometimes we bear the marks of our mistakes. I think she may have learned that lesson. --wwtMask
Well, I think you are right and that is the end of it. I was expecting a short subplot providing some sort of resolution, since Marietta spends the entire year having to go to school with the students she betrayed after they are proven correct. But she is barely mentioned, so it seems Rowling is giving her stamp of approval for Marietta keeping her disfigurement permanently for her betrayal.
Ludicrous Patents Office - Aug 1, 2005 1:04 pm (#1658 of 2486)
I took it to mean since Marietta wore make up and not a balaclava (sp) that her spots were slowly but surely fading. LPO
Ydnam96 - Aug 1, 2005 5:27 pm (#1659 of 2486)
LPO that's what I thought as well
Mrs. Sirius - Aug 6, 2005 11:48 pm (#1660 of 2486)
Yes fading, but that is a s-l-o-w fade. Normal zits fade in far less than a year.
Solitaire - Aug 8, 2005 11:51 am (#1661 of 2486)
Yes, but acne scars can linger for years ...
Paulus Maximus - Aug 8, 2005 12:01 pm (#1662 of 2486)
Oh, yeah... and Marietta WOULD have picked incessantly at her acne, wouldn't she?
Ludicrous Patents Office - Aug 8, 2005 4:38 pm (#1663 of 2486)
Yuk Paulus!
I thought it was amusing when Hermione got the black eye and worried about being seen that way. She got a taste of her own medicine, er jinx. LPO
wwtMask - Aug 9, 2005 12:26 pm (#1664 of 2486)
Well, the difference between her and Marietta being that she didn't deserve what she got...
I'd like to bring something up that has sort of occurred to me on rereading. We all know Hermione is brilliant and can pick up a book and learn the magic faster than anyone else. This insistence on going by the book seems to limit her, though, the primary example being that of the HBP's potions book. I can only imagine what she'd be doing if she had George and Fred's curiosity. To this end, in the face of the brilliance of Snape and the Marauders, I was thinking she wasn't quite up to scratch. Then I re-read the bit where she has her conjured birds attack Ron with the "Impugno" incantation and I realized that she might have made that spell up. Impugn means to attack as false or wrong. Impugno doesn't seem like any other attack spells in that the root of the incantation does not mean a literal physical attack, nor do I think that, in the absence of the birds, that anything would have happened to Ron. The root of the word would imply that the victim would have to be false or wrong, which Ron very much was, but otherwise I'd see little practical use for so specific a spell. So it may be that Hermione is, indeed, creating spells and not just modifying them (like mobiliarbus).
Paulus Maximus - Aug 9, 2005 12:44 pm (#1665 of 2486)
Hermione invented the Point Me spell, if Harry is to be believed...
Sparrowhawk - Aug 9, 2005 12:56 pm (#1666 of 2486)
If it appears in book 7 that the HBP's potions were in fact created by Lily Potter (with Snape being the authors of the hexes and curses), it might set an example for Hermione to follow and become more creative, generally speaking, with truly amazing results! I wonder...
Robert Dierken - Aug 9, 2005 6:32 pm (#1667 of 2486)
Yes fading, but that is a s-l-o-w fade. Normal zits fade in far less than a year. Mrs Sirius (#1660)
Maybe Marietta should get some guaranteed ten second pimple vanisher from Gred and Forge!
Wizadora - Aug 12, 2005 12:20 pm (#1668 of 2486)
Something that I just thought of on the Horcrux thread - was how Hermionies Arithmacy or Ancient runes classes might be able to solve some of the questions the trio will have. I am guessing that she learnt something in them to help.
Steve Newton - Aug 12, 2005 12:38 pm (#1669 of 2486)
I have been curious about Ancient Runes for quite a while. Since Harry was saved by Ancient Magic it seems that there should be a connection. Hermione also seems to be pretty forward looking and I think that she could have figured out early that it would be important.
Hollywand - Aug 15, 2005 9:03 pm (#1670 of 2486)
That's a great suggestion, Wizadora. The fact that our new Wizard of the month, Bridget Wenlock, discovered the "magical properties of the number seven", and is offered to us "as the seventh month dies" probably points to Arithmancy as a direction to look into for Book Seven.
Wizadora - Aug 17, 2005 9:45 am (#1671 of 2486)
I am now convinced that this is the way to go - I am consulting the article on [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] written by Hermonie herself (very cute) to see if I can find anything more concrete.
Wisey - Aug 18, 2005 3:59 am (#1672 of 2486)
Since Harry had no idea what Dumbledore was doing in the cave, I'm guessing that Hermione with Arithmancy and Ancient Runes is going to come in very handy when the trio start chasing Horcruxes all over the place in the next book.
HungarianHorntail11 - Aug 18, 2005 11:50 am (#1673 of 2486)
Perhaps DD even saw the benefits of Hermoine taking those double classes in Book 3 and helped to get the time-turner approval.
quibbler - Aug 21, 2005 9:32 am (#1674 of 2486)
I don't know if this has been brought up before, if it has been : my apologies. I found it a bit odd that we didn't hear about Hermione's latest SPEW-action in the HBP. We hear about house-elves but not about any new attempts of Hermione to bring them freedom. Did she abandon it? I don't think so. Any comments?
Marie E. - Aug 21, 2005 9:39 am (#1675 of 2486)
Since these books are from Harry's POV, she could have been doing lots of things without his noticing. He was quite busy with other stuff.
Solitaire - Aug 21, 2005 7:19 pm (#1676 of 2486)
Didn't Harry make a SPEW-related comment or observation to himself in connection with one of the scenes involving the House-elves?
Marie E. - Aug 21, 2005 9:12 pm (#1677 of 2486)
Did he? Gosh, I guess I'll just have to reread the book.
HungarianHorntail11 - Aug 22, 2005 6:31 am (#1678 of 2486)
I don't remember any SPEW coming up but they will have their work cut out for themselves with Kreacher. At least he was answering Hemoine when she last spoke of him 'the mudblood is talking to Kreacher'. (I think elf free again is another JKR warning.)
Edit: I was thinking specifically about Hermoine working on and furthering her dedication to SPEW. She hasn't passed out buttons, or any thing of the like.
(Her efforts in previous books must be working, however, because, instead of dismissing the treatment of the elves, Harry, instead thought of it as their mistreatment. Perhaps Ron and some others are also starting to think about this.)
Hermy82 - Aug 22, 2005 6:33 am (#1679 of 2486)
SPEW came up in HBP during the chapter with Aragog's funeral. Slughorn said he made a house elf taste all of his wines to see if they were poisoned. Harry wondered to himself how Hermione would react if she had heard that.
LooneyLuna - Aug 22, 2005 6:43 am (#1680 of 2486)
SPEW also came up after Harry saw the memory with Hepzibah Smith and the house elf who was framed for her murder, Hokey.
Matilda the Pygmy Puff - Aug 22, 2005 10:56 am (#1681 of 2486)
But those instances were both Harry thinking about SPEW, not Hermione campaining for it. It might imply she was still at it, but we don't know for sure.
total hatred01 - Aug 23, 2005 12:06 am (#1682 of 2486)
SPEW is not dead, Hermione is just preoccupied with her OWL.
mokesh - Aug 28, 2005 4:57 am (#1683 of 2486)
Was anyone else terrified by the birds-attacking-Ron scene? I found it to be the most chilling scene in the entire book (yes, more so than Dumbeldore's death).
I think we've been shown a side of Hermione we'd never seen before, and I think it could come to play a part in the future.
Soul Search - Aug 28, 2005 12:32 pm (#1684 of 2486)
mokesh -- That scene with the birds startled me, too. At first, I thought that it was so "out-of-character" for Hermione. After all, she has had a romantic interest in Ron since, at least, PoA. I can't recall her doing anything to hurt anyone, except when defending herself in the MoM and there she wasn't nasty enough.
Then I decided that the bird scene was background for the Book 7 Hermione. Sending the birds at Ron revealed her true nature. Oh, not evil, or anything. Just capable of doing some serious harm when her emotions, usually well in control, are released.
I think we will see a scene in book 7 where Harry and Ron hesitate to hurt someone, but Hermione strikes fast, and true, thus saving the day.
Paulus Maximus - Aug 28, 2005 2:35 pm (#1685 of 2486)
Just capable of doing some serious harm when her emotions, usually well in control, are released.
So much like Snape...
Ludicrous Patents Office - Aug 28, 2005 7:27 pm (#1686 of 2486)
Mokesh I thought it was an example of how calm, collected, intellectual Hermione could actually have emotional outbursts. Hurt people hurt, Ron had just hurt her feelings. Teenagers strike out at people. If you have magic you have more weapons. I don't think Ron was in any serious danger. LPO
Solitaire - Aug 28, 2005 7:52 pm (#1687 of 2486)
I agree with LPO.
haymoni - Aug 29, 2005 6:59 am (#1688 of 2486)
It kind of reminded me of the flying keys in Movie 1.
Soul Search - Aug 29, 2005 3:34 pm (#1689 of 2486)
I may of overstated things a bit in #1684. I have since remembered that Hermione punched Draco in PoA and confunded McClaggen in HBP.
Matilda the Pygmy Puff - Aug 29, 2005 3:38 pm (#1690 of 2486)
More like the Flying Monkeys from the Wizard of Oz
Paulus Maximus - Aug 29, 2005 3:42 pm (#1691 of 2486)
I have since remembered that Hermione punched Draco in PoA...
That looked more like a slap to me...
Ludicrous Patents Office - Aug 29, 2005 4:01 pm (#1692 of 2486)
Hermione has a temper and can be pushed to lose control of it. She is older than the boys, so more mature in some ways. Just because a person is intellectually advanced does mean she or he is emotionally advanced. LPO
the almighty kneazle - Aug 29, 2005 9:25 pm (#1693 of 2486)
Plus, I would've done the same thing to Ron... he was kind of being a jerk, wasn't he??
Ydnam96 - Aug 29, 2005 9:34 pm (#1694 of 2486)
Yah, and even the most intelligent people get all loopy when love comes into play. And, we do know that it is only when she gets emotional that she can't think logically like she normally does. It seems perfectly within her character to be all upset and immature about the Ron/jealousy thing. IMO
Wisey - Aug 30, 2005 4:02 am (#1695 of 2486)
JKR has described emotional magic many times eg Harry with his hair, Tom riddle with the orphanage kids.
Hermione has always been a studious witch, everything out of books. Except now, in Bk6, her emotions are kicking in and I think she will be a great help to Harry because her magic skills will be let loose.
Ludicrous Patents Office - Aug 30, 2005 8:02 pm (#1696 of 2486)
Interesting idea Wisey. One thing that has bothered me about Hermione she doesn't use her imagination to create/invent magic. She repeats what she knows. Now maybe she will. She has the brains. Maybe she will have the emotion now. LPO
wwtMask - Aug 31, 2005 5:08 am (#1697 of 2486)
I think the Impugno spell she used to make the birds attack Ron was a created spell. She seems to know the rules for spell making (remember Mobiliarbus?), maybe her creativity hasn't surfaced yet. I'd like to see her do wandless magic and detecting invisible magical spells, like Dumbledore did at the cave.
Soul Search - Aug 31, 2005 6:11 am (#1698 of 2486)
I have had this thought about Hermione since my second read of OotP. I hoped it might be cleared up in HBP, but that book only added to the nagging thought. I will try to express it here and invite your comments.
Hermione is a spy.
Oh, not for Voldemort or the Ministry, or anything. For McGonagall or Dumbledore via McGonagall. Hermione and McGonagall have a relationship based on a mutual desire to keep Harry safe, mostly from his own actions. Hermione has carefuly kept this relationship from Harry and Ron. Good thing. If, or when, it came out Hermione's relationship with Harry would be jeopardized.
My first suspicion came when I asked "Why was Hermione at #12 Grimald Place?" even before Harry arrived. Dumbledore needed a safe place for Harry. The headquarters of the Phoenix was no place for kids, especially kids with a history of snooping, finding out things they shouldn't know, and taking risky actions. #12 was best for Harry, although with many drawbacks. We can understand the Weasley kids being there, since Molly had agreed to manage the household, but why Hermione?
Moreover, why did Hermione agree to spend a summer there? She hadn't seen much of her parents since the summer between CoS and PoA. Surely, she had better fun things to do.
Dumbledore knew Harry's state of mind. He was concerned that Harry would do something stupid, like rebel and leave, like he did in PoA.
McGonagall convinced Hermione to go to #12 and tasked her with keeping Harry from doing something stupid.
Any doubts of this relationship are erased when I further ask why Hermione came to #12 after Mr. Weasley was bitten. I always thought that "skiing isn't my thing" comment was a bit lame. Even so, she would have spent Christmas with her parents.
Hermione came in the door and went right to Harry with exactly the right comments. The subsequent gathering was just what Harry needed to keep him from leaving #12. Well, she was fully informed of Harry's mental state and tasked with settling him down so he wouldn't leave.
The Hermione/McGonagall relationship started in PoA, with the time turner secret. Hermione proved she could be trusted. It built when Hermione told McGonagall about the Firebolt.
A re-read of OotP and HBP with the relationship in mind reveals all sorts of situations where the relationship may be in play. Its that "may" that is the problem. Hermione is naturally protective of Harry so how much is Hermione and how much is relationship is hard to say.
Will we ever know for sure. Maybe not, since revealing the secret would anger Harry and Ron. Maybe readers will know, but not likely the characters.
Paulus Maximus - Aug 31, 2005 10:25 am (#1699 of 2486)
Interesting idea Wisey. One thing that has bothered me about Hermione she doesn't use her imagination to create/invent magic.
Um... she invented a spell in book 4...
wwtMask - Aug 31, 2005 1:10 pm (#1700 of 2486)
Which spell was that?
At the risk of sounding hopelessly Muggle, why doesn't she just talk WITH (not at) them? If I were Hermione, I would ask Dobby if he would be willing to talk with me.
The first thing I would ask is for an explanation of how and why the elves came to be enslaved in the first place. I think this is the key to anything she hopes to achieve. If she does not understand the terms, reasons, and structure of their enslavement, she is not going to get very far.
Next, I would ask him why the elves seem so resistant to freedom. I would ask him to talk to them and find out their specific concerns. I would then do some research to see if there were a way to address those concerns and relieve their fears.
Once I had my information, I would want to speak directly with the elves, and I would enlist Dobby to be my helper in this. As I've said before, Hermione is a smart girl, yet she seems a bit dense in her House-elf liberation efforts. I think it is a result of her tendency to want to do everything herself. Alas, this is an endeavor which will require not only the understanding and support of the House-elves themselves, but the cooperation and re-education of the entire Wizarding community--including the House-elves. She has her work cut out for her.
Solitaire
Denise P. - Jul 6, 2005 10:46 am (#1652 of 2486)
Even if Hermione did talk to the elves, I doubt she would really hear what they are saying. She is very firm in her mind that she is "right" in what she is doing. Because of that, I don't think she will truly believe them saying they want to remain enslaved...obviously they don't know any better and if they would just give it a chance, they would be so much happier. I think some major foundation shaking is going to have to take place if Hermione is ever going to see that she is approaching it incorrectly.
Hermione is a very clever little witch but she does have her faults and SPEW is the showcase of one of them.
wwtMask - Jul 6, 2005 11:03 am (#1653 of 2486)
I think her best approach will be to ignore the house elves completely. They have no power so their opinions are pretty useless. Instead, she should focus on convincing wizards to end the slavery. If she can ever achieve that, the house elves will be forced to accept and come to terms with freedom.
Gerald Costales - Jul 7, 2005 10:03 am (#1654 of 2486)
So many of these recent posts are more House-Elf thread material than Hermione thread material. That being said, I know I have been guilty of posting these type of posts on other threads.
IMHO, SPEW exists to show how important the House-Elves are. Will SPEW or Hermione free the House-Elves in either Book 6 or 7? Probably not. My take has been that there are a 100 House-Elves at Hogwarts that are bound to Dumbledore or Hogwarts. Will these 100 follow Dumbledore’s orders in the present War or defend Hogwarts if attacked? Yes.
Hermione will have Advanced classes, NEWTs and of course will be helping Harry in Books 6 & 7, so even Hermione will be spending less time in regards to SPEW. (And don’t forget Herimone may have a budding romance with Ron (ugh) or Harry (grin). Herimone forget Viktor!!!)
Did Herimone’s punishment of Marietta go a little too far. Maybe. I forgot that with Hermione’s hospital stay at the end of Book 5, that removing Marietta’s purple pimples was probably just an oversight by Hermione. Hermione had Rita Skeeter in a jar at the end of Book 4, so Hermione just doesn’t rush to the aid of her enemies. Rita was very much un-beetle-like when we saw Rita again in Book 5. So, Marietta should be pimple free when or if we see Marietta in Book 6.
If a Hermione vs. Cho rivalry still exists in Book 6, I don’t see it centering on Harry. I still see the DA existing in Book 6 and both Hermione and Cho are the only students besides Harry that can perform the Patronus Charm. So it should be an Otter vs. Swan showdown over the leadership of the DA in Book 6. In regards to the future DA, I think the Swan will soar while the Otter is mired.
Of course it could be Hermione vs. Cho in regards to Ron’s affection. Ron does fancy pretty older woman. Ron fancied Fleur and the movies have Hermione saying Ron fancies Madame Rosemerta. Ron wake up and look at Hermione you git!!! But, Ron‘s lost could be Harry‘s gain.
A week and half to HBP. ;-) GC
wwtMask - Jul 7, 2005 10:12 am (#1655 of 2486)
Cho vs Hermione for Ron? That'd be very interesting and plausible, assuming Cho still cares about Harry (using Ron to make him jealous). The trio are so strongly bonded now, having gone through their various rough spots and life threatening adventures, that her plan would fail miserably as the three of them close ranks.
wwtMask - Aug 1, 2005 12:25 pm (#1656 of 2486)
Well, we can see from HBP that Marietta's spots are still there. No one is angry at Hermione over it that we can tell and no one seems to concerned that the spots can't be cured. No one made any effort towards retaliation at all, not that I really expected anyone to after Voldemort revealed himself. I'd say that the issue is good and truly dead. This just goes to show you that sometimes we bear the marks of our mistakes. I think she may have learned that lesson.
Mrs Brisbee - Aug 1, 2005 12:51 pm (#1657 of 2486)
Well, we can see from HBP that Marietta's spots are still there. No one is angry at Hermione over it that we can tell and no one seems to concerned that the spots can't be cured. No one made any effort towards retaliation at all, not that I really expected anyone to after Voldemort revealed himself. I'd say that the issue is good and truly dead. This just goes to show you that sometimes we bear the marks of our mistakes. I think she may have learned that lesson. --wwtMask
Well, I think you are right and that is the end of it. I was expecting a short subplot providing some sort of resolution, since Marietta spends the entire year having to go to school with the students she betrayed after they are proven correct. But she is barely mentioned, so it seems Rowling is giving her stamp of approval for Marietta keeping her disfigurement permanently for her betrayal.
Ludicrous Patents Office - Aug 1, 2005 1:04 pm (#1658 of 2486)
I took it to mean since Marietta wore make up and not a balaclava (sp) that her spots were slowly but surely fading. LPO
Ydnam96 - Aug 1, 2005 5:27 pm (#1659 of 2486)
LPO that's what I thought as well
Mrs. Sirius - Aug 6, 2005 11:48 pm (#1660 of 2486)
Yes fading, but that is a s-l-o-w fade. Normal zits fade in far less than a year.
Solitaire - Aug 8, 2005 11:51 am (#1661 of 2486)
Yes, but acne scars can linger for years ...
Paulus Maximus - Aug 8, 2005 12:01 pm (#1662 of 2486)
Oh, yeah... and Marietta WOULD have picked incessantly at her acne, wouldn't she?
Ludicrous Patents Office - Aug 8, 2005 4:38 pm (#1663 of 2486)
Yuk Paulus!
I thought it was amusing when Hermione got the black eye and worried about being seen that way. She got a taste of her own medicine, er jinx. LPO
wwtMask - Aug 9, 2005 12:26 pm (#1664 of 2486)
Well, the difference between her and Marietta being that she didn't deserve what she got...
I'd like to bring something up that has sort of occurred to me on rereading. We all know Hermione is brilliant and can pick up a book and learn the magic faster than anyone else. This insistence on going by the book seems to limit her, though, the primary example being that of the HBP's potions book. I can only imagine what she'd be doing if she had George and Fred's curiosity. To this end, in the face of the brilliance of Snape and the Marauders, I was thinking she wasn't quite up to scratch. Then I re-read the bit where she has her conjured birds attack Ron with the "Impugno" incantation and I realized that she might have made that spell up. Impugn means to attack as false or wrong. Impugno doesn't seem like any other attack spells in that the root of the incantation does not mean a literal physical attack, nor do I think that, in the absence of the birds, that anything would have happened to Ron. The root of the word would imply that the victim would have to be false or wrong, which Ron very much was, but otherwise I'd see little practical use for so specific a spell. So it may be that Hermione is, indeed, creating spells and not just modifying them (like mobiliarbus).
Paulus Maximus - Aug 9, 2005 12:44 pm (#1665 of 2486)
Hermione invented the Point Me spell, if Harry is to be believed...
Sparrowhawk - Aug 9, 2005 12:56 pm (#1666 of 2486)
If it appears in book 7 that the HBP's potions were in fact created by Lily Potter (with Snape being the authors of the hexes and curses), it might set an example for Hermione to follow and become more creative, generally speaking, with truly amazing results! I wonder...
Robert Dierken - Aug 9, 2005 6:32 pm (#1667 of 2486)
Yes fading, but that is a s-l-o-w fade. Normal zits fade in far less than a year. Mrs Sirius (#1660)
Maybe Marietta should get some guaranteed ten second pimple vanisher from Gred and Forge!
Wizadora - Aug 12, 2005 12:20 pm (#1668 of 2486)
Something that I just thought of on the Horcrux thread - was how Hermionies Arithmacy or Ancient runes classes might be able to solve some of the questions the trio will have. I am guessing that she learnt something in them to help.
Steve Newton - Aug 12, 2005 12:38 pm (#1669 of 2486)
I have been curious about Ancient Runes for quite a while. Since Harry was saved by Ancient Magic it seems that there should be a connection. Hermione also seems to be pretty forward looking and I think that she could have figured out early that it would be important.
Hollywand - Aug 15, 2005 9:03 pm (#1670 of 2486)
That's a great suggestion, Wizadora. The fact that our new Wizard of the month, Bridget Wenlock, discovered the "magical properties of the number seven", and is offered to us "as the seventh month dies" probably points to Arithmancy as a direction to look into for Book Seven.
Wizadora - Aug 17, 2005 9:45 am (#1671 of 2486)
I am now convinced that this is the way to go - I am consulting the article on [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] written by Hermonie herself (very cute) to see if I can find anything more concrete.
Wisey - Aug 18, 2005 3:59 am (#1672 of 2486)
Since Harry had no idea what Dumbledore was doing in the cave, I'm guessing that Hermione with Arithmancy and Ancient Runes is going to come in very handy when the trio start chasing Horcruxes all over the place in the next book.
HungarianHorntail11 - Aug 18, 2005 11:50 am (#1673 of 2486)
Perhaps DD even saw the benefits of Hermoine taking those double classes in Book 3 and helped to get the time-turner approval.
quibbler - Aug 21, 2005 9:32 am (#1674 of 2486)
I don't know if this has been brought up before, if it has been : my apologies. I found it a bit odd that we didn't hear about Hermione's latest SPEW-action in the HBP. We hear about house-elves but not about any new attempts of Hermione to bring them freedom. Did she abandon it? I don't think so. Any comments?
Marie E. - Aug 21, 2005 9:39 am (#1675 of 2486)
Since these books are from Harry's POV, she could have been doing lots of things without his noticing. He was quite busy with other stuff.
Solitaire - Aug 21, 2005 7:19 pm (#1676 of 2486)
Didn't Harry make a SPEW-related comment or observation to himself in connection with one of the scenes involving the House-elves?
Marie E. - Aug 21, 2005 9:12 pm (#1677 of 2486)
Did he? Gosh, I guess I'll just have to reread the book.
HungarianHorntail11 - Aug 22, 2005 6:31 am (#1678 of 2486)
I don't remember any SPEW coming up but they will have their work cut out for themselves with Kreacher. At least he was answering Hemoine when she last spoke of him 'the mudblood is talking to Kreacher'. (I think elf free again is another JKR warning.)
Edit: I was thinking specifically about Hermoine working on and furthering her dedication to SPEW. She hasn't passed out buttons, or any thing of the like.
(Her efforts in previous books must be working, however, because, instead of dismissing the treatment of the elves, Harry, instead thought of it as their mistreatment. Perhaps Ron and some others are also starting to think about this.)
Hermy82 - Aug 22, 2005 6:33 am (#1679 of 2486)
SPEW came up in HBP during the chapter with Aragog's funeral. Slughorn said he made a house elf taste all of his wines to see if they were poisoned. Harry wondered to himself how Hermione would react if she had heard that.
LooneyLuna - Aug 22, 2005 6:43 am (#1680 of 2486)
SPEW also came up after Harry saw the memory with Hepzibah Smith and the house elf who was framed for her murder, Hokey.
Matilda the Pygmy Puff - Aug 22, 2005 10:56 am (#1681 of 2486)
But those instances were both Harry thinking about SPEW, not Hermione campaining for it. It might imply she was still at it, but we don't know for sure.
total hatred01 - Aug 23, 2005 12:06 am (#1682 of 2486)
SPEW is not dead, Hermione is just preoccupied with her OWL.
mokesh - Aug 28, 2005 4:57 am (#1683 of 2486)
Was anyone else terrified by the birds-attacking-Ron scene? I found it to be the most chilling scene in the entire book (yes, more so than Dumbeldore's death).
I think we've been shown a side of Hermione we'd never seen before, and I think it could come to play a part in the future.
Soul Search - Aug 28, 2005 12:32 pm (#1684 of 2486)
mokesh -- That scene with the birds startled me, too. At first, I thought that it was so "out-of-character" for Hermione. After all, she has had a romantic interest in Ron since, at least, PoA. I can't recall her doing anything to hurt anyone, except when defending herself in the MoM and there she wasn't nasty enough.
Then I decided that the bird scene was background for the Book 7 Hermione. Sending the birds at Ron revealed her true nature. Oh, not evil, or anything. Just capable of doing some serious harm when her emotions, usually well in control, are released.
I think we will see a scene in book 7 where Harry and Ron hesitate to hurt someone, but Hermione strikes fast, and true, thus saving the day.
Paulus Maximus - Aug 28, 2005 2:35 pm (#1685 of 2486)
Just capable of doing some serious harm when her emotions, usually well in control, are released.
So much like Snape...
Ludicrous Patents Office - Aug 28, 2005 7:27 pm (#1686 of 2486)
Mokesh I thought it was an example of how calm, collected, intellectual Hermione could actually have emotional outbursts. Hurt people hurt, Ron had just hurt her feelings. Teenagers strike out at people. If you have magic you have more weapons. I don't think Ron was in any serious danger. LPO
Solitaire - Aug 28, 2005 7:52 pm (#1687 of 2486)
I agree with LPO.
haymoni - Aug 29, 2005 6:59 am (#1688 of 2486)
It kind of reminded me of the flying keys in Movie 1.
Soul Search - Aug 29, 2005 3:34 pm (#1689 of 2486)
I may of overstated things a bit in #1684. I have since remembered that Hermione punched Draco in PoA and confunded McClaggen in HBP.
Matilda the Pygmy Puff - Aug 29, 2005 3:38 pm (#1690 of 2486)
More like the Flying Monkeys from the Wizard of Oz
Paulus Maximus - Aug 29, 2005 3:42 pm (#1691 of 2486)
I have since remembered that Hermione punched Draco in PoA...
That looked more like a slap to me...
Ludicrous Patents Office - Aug 29, 2005 4:01 pm (#1692 of 2486)
Hermione has a temper and can be pushed to lose control of it. She is older than the boys, so more mature in some ways. Just because a person is intellectually advanced does mean she or he is emotionally advanced. LPO
the almighty kneazle - Aug 29, 2005 9:25 pm (#1693 of 2486)
Plus, I would've done the same thing to Ron... he was kind of being a jerk, wasn't he??
Ydnam96 - Aug 29, 2005 9:34 pm (#1694 of 2486)
Yah, and even the most intelligent people get all loopy when love comes into play. And, we do know that it is only when she gets emotional that she can't think logically like she normally does. It seems perfectly within her character to be all upset and immature about the Ron/jealousy thing. IMO
Wisey - Aug 30, 2005 4:02 am (#1695 of 2486)
JKR has described emotional magic many times eg Harry with his hair, Tom riddle with the orphanage kids.
Hermione has always been a studious witch, everything out of books. Except now, in Bk6, her emotions are kicking in and I think she will be a great help to Harry because her magic skills will be let loose.
Ludicrous Patents Office - Aug 30, 2005 8:02 pm (#1696 of 2486)
Interesting idea Wisey. One thing that has bothered me about Hermione she doesn't use her imagination to create/invent magic. She repeats what she knows. Now maybe she will. She has the brains. Maybe she will have the emotion now. LPO
wwtMask - Aug 31, 2005 5:08 am (#1697 of 2486)
I think the Impugno spell she used to make the birds attack Ron was a created spell. She seems to know the rules for spell making (remember Mobiliarbus?), maybe her creativity hasn't surfaced yet. I'd like to see her do wandless magic and detecting invisible magical spells, like Dumbledore did at the cave.
Soul Search - Aug 31, 2005 6:11 am (#1698 of 2486)
I have had this thought about Hermione since my second read of OotP. I hoped it might be cleared up in HBP, but that book only added to the nagging thought. I will try to express it here and invite your comments.
Hermione is a spy.
Oh, not for Voldemort or the Ministry, or anything. For McGonagall or Dumbledore via McGonagall. Hermione and McGonagall have a relationship based on a mutual desire to keep Harry safe, mostly from his own actions. Hermione has carefuly kept this relationship from Harry and Ron. Good thing. If, or when, it came out Hermione's relationship with Harry would be jeopardized.
My first suspicion came when I asked "Why was Hermione at #12 Grimald Place?" even before Harry arrived. Dumbledore needed a safe place for Harry. The headquarters of the Phoenix was no place for kids, especially kids with a history of snooping, finding out things they shouldn't know, and taking risky actions. #12 was best for Harry, although with many drawbacks. We can understand the Weasley kids being there, since Molly had agreed to manage the household, but why Hermione?
Moreover, why did Hermione agree to spend a summer there? She hadn't seen much of her parents since the summer between CoS and PoA. Surely, she had better fun things to do.
Dumbledore knew Harry's state of mind. He was concerned that Harry would do something stupid, like rebel and leave, like he did in PoA.
McGonagall convinced Hermione to go to #12 and tasked her with keeping Harry from doing something stupid.
Any doubts of this relationship are erased when I further ask why Hermione came to #12 after Mr. Weasley was bitten. I always thought that "skiing isn't my thing" comment was a bit lame. Even so, she would have spent Christmas with her parents.
Hermione came in the door and went right to Harry with exactly the right comments. The subsequent gathering was just what Harry needed to keep him from leaving #12. Well, she was fully informed of Harry's mental state and tasked with settling him down so he wouldn't leave.
The Hermione/McGonagall relationship started in PoA, with the time turner secret. Hermione proved she could be trusted. It built when Hermione told McGonagall about the Firebolt.
A re-read of OotP and HBP with the relationship in mind reveals all sorts of situations where the relationship may be in play. Its that "may" that is the problem. Hermione is naturally protective of Harry so how much is Hermione and how much is relationship is hard to say.
Will we ever know for sure. Maybe not, since revealing the secret would anger Harry and Ron. Maybe readers will know, but not likely the characters.
Paulus Maximus - Aug 31, 2005 10:25 am (#1699 of 2486)
Interesting idea Wisey. One thing that has bothered me about Hermione she doesn't use her imagination to create/invent magic.
Um... she invented a spell in book 4...
wwtMask - Aug 31, 2005 1:10 pm (#1700 of 2486)
Which spell was that?
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Paulus Maximus - Aug 31, 2005 1:16 pm (#1701 of 2486)
The Point Me spell that Harry used in the maze. Hermione invented it.
I think... I'll need to check book 4 again...
Eponine - Aug 31, 2005 1:37 pm (#1702 of 2486)
My book says,
...and the Four-Point Spell, a useful discovery of Hermione's...
GoF, UK hardback, p 529.
My US paperback says the same thing.
haymoni - Aug 31, 2005 5:24 pm (#1703 of 2486)
I took that to mean that she discovered it in one of the hundreds of books they had looked over, not that she had discovered it herself. I think the word would have been "invention" if it was hers.
Hermione IS a spy. She's already told Minerva about the Firebolt.
I wasn't surprised to see Hermione at #12. She's such a mother hen, she'd want to be near Harry, near the action. Why would she stay at home with her busy dentist parents when she could be hanging around older wizards, keeping an eye out for information that would protect Harry.
I'm pretty sure that we read Hermione & Ron weren't surprised at the Prophesy. I'm guessing Hermione's had suspicions all along. She'd want to help Harry any way that she could.
Finn BV - Aug 31, 2005 6:33 pm (#1704 of 2486)
Soul Search, your idea was touched upon in the Harry's Friend Theory Thread. The only difference was that the author of the theory, Jeremy Tuttle, believe Hermione to be an adult witch in disguise, as she is exceedingly smart for her age (to say the least ).
I think that the type of spy you are talking about, though, for Dumbledore/McGonagall, is basically just Hermione keeping an eye out for the well-being of Harry. She won't point out anything private or secret, but anything important – like the Marauders' Map, which she almost turned in – will go to McGonagall, who may or may not keep it quiet. Hermione's instincts are natural to help Harry, as she can usually get him out of a tight situation, if need be.
Eponine - Aug 31, 2005 8:43 pm (#1705 of 2486)
haymoni, that's what I took it to mean as well. Hermione didn't invent the spell, she just found it somewhere in a book.
I don't think Hermione is 'working' for Dumbledore or McGonagall in any capacity. She's just one of Harry's best friends, and she is concerned about his well-being.
Soul Search - Sep 1, 2005 5:35 am (#1706 of 2486)
Regarding "Hermione is a spy."
I don't think I would use the term "working for." I think it more likely that McGonnall would have gone to Hermione, saying "you know how Harry is always getting into trouble, we need someone that is close to Harry to help us keep him out of trouble and safe."
Hermione would go along with it, especially since it coincides with her own strong desires.
Question is, how much of what we see is Hermione being Hermione, and how much is Hermione being spy?
One scene I particularly have trouble with is in OotP when Harry wants to rush off and rescue Sirius. McGonagall is gone, so Hermione can't consult her, but she tries very hard to keep Harry from doing something rash.
I see great frustration in Hermione. She can't fulfil her role as "spy" since McGonagall isn't there and there is no one around she can turn to for help.
Mrs Brisbee - Sep 1, 2005 6:37 am (#1707 of 2486)
Interesting idea Wisey. One thing that has bothered me about Hermione she doesn't use her imagination to create/invent magic. She repeats what she knows. Now maybe she will. She has the brains. Maybe she will have the emotion now. LPO
Magical inventiveness seems to be the one thing Hermione lacks. She is brilliant. She might sound like she has swallowed the textbooks, but she obviously understands the theories behind what she has read. She tells Harry that the Half-Blood Prince's Potions book isn't really helping him because he is not learning the theory, and she's right. Harry is no longer "brilliant" in Potions once he loses the book.
Hermione is able to be non-magically creative, organizing groups like SPEW and the DA to get things done when necessary.
I wonder if it because she is Muggle born? Perhaps because of her personality she feels she needs to learn everything magical by the book first, and she won't strike out on her own until she thinks she has exhausted the knowledge of wizards.
Paulus Maximus - Sep 1, 2005 7:03 am (#1708 of 2486)
Grr... my bad. I guess in my mind, discovery equals invention.
Of course, we all know after book 6 that Hermione takes exception to treading off the beaten path, so she more likely found it in a book...
wwtMask - Sep 1, 2005 7:59 am (#1709 of 2486)
I think Hermione is brilliant but has not reached her full potential. She's still too caught up in trying to learn everything in books. She either isn't confident enough or doesn't feel the need to experiment in magic like Dumbledore or Voldemort have. I think she does understand many of the principles, but we've yet to see her do too much that isn't by the book. We know she's a powerful witch but, until we really see her try to make her own mark and build on the magical knowledge that she so highly regards, I don't think we can consider her to be a great witch.
In many ways, this seems to be very telling of the general ability level of Harry's generation. Dumbledore, Voldemort, and Snape are all exceptional wizards who've gone beyond what's in books. Even the Marauders and Lily, I think, were more advanced at their age than Harry and his friends. And so far, only Harry and Hermione have really shown themselves to be above average. I'm praying for Hermione to really break out the next book. Just as they did in the first book, they're going to need her to use her knowledge to unlock doors and deal with advanced magic.
Mrs Brisbee - Sep 1, 2005 10:04 am (#1710 of 2486)
I wouldn't count Lily amongst the brilliant just yet, for the simple reason that we have seen nothing that demonstrates her brilliance, like the Marauders Map and becoming Animagi demonstrated that James and his friends were brilliant.
For Hermione's generation, I suppose we can count Fred and George as being exceptional wizards. They are innovative, and Hermione has said several times how impressed she is with the complexity of their magical products.
Soul Mate for Sirius - Sep 1, 2005 10:28 am (#1711 of 2486)
I think Hermione has the potential to be a great witch, but as of now, she's just really really smart. I think that after everything that happened in HBP, she'll start to realize that she doesn't always have to go by the book. I'm hoping that the trio's hunt for Horcrxes will put them into a situation where Hermione will come to the rescue (like she normally does ) not with something she remembers reading in a book, but with something she comes up with all on her own. Perhaps a new spell or something.
Here's my little observation/theory/whatever: In PS/SS, when the trio is trying to get to the stone, Hermione saves the day twice. Once, (the Devil's Snare) she uses her knowledge which she has gained from books. The second time (Snape's puzzle and the potions) she uses her common sense. In my opinion, she still needs to save the day using her creativity/imagination.
Here's why, in my opinion, there are three types of intellegence: book smarts, street smarts (common sense) and creative ability.
To me, the trio represents all four qualities prized by the founders: bravery, loyalty, intellegence, and ambition. Harry represents bravery and ambition, Ron represents loyalty, and Hermione represents intellegence. In order for her to completely represent intellegence, she must demonstrate all three kinds of intellegence.
She has deomnstrated the two I mentioned above throughout the entire series. But in my mind, each of the characters will face something in book 7 that will cause them to finally represent completely the trait they stand for. I don't want to specualte what Ron and Harry will face on this thread, I'll save that for their threads, but I think Hermione will finally find herself (and the boys as well most likely) in a situation where everything she has learned from books will do her no good and she will be forced to think "outside the box"(or in her case book ) and come up with some creative solution.
I know this post is really long, and I apologize if any of this has already been speculated on, but I didn't have time to read over 1700 posts!!
Let me know what you all think!! I'm open to anyone else's ideas or critiques of my theory.
-Jenn
wwtMask - Sep 1, 2005 11:49 am (#1712 of 2486)
I'll agree about George and Fred being exceptional and I'll venture to say that they're the best all around young wizards mentioned in the book. I think we'll probably have to put Harry in that category as well. True enough, he hasn't always been the strongest wizard, but I think he's got some of the intangible qualities (bravery, creativity, instinct, force of will) that make up for where he is lacking magically. Hermione is powerful and has the smarts but I think she'll only really come into her own when she can utilize those intangibles to operate effectively outside her comfort zone.
timrew - Sep 1, 2005 3:30 pm (#1713 of 2486)
In POA, where the trio are having a drink in the Three Broomsticks in Hogsmeade, Hermione (to hid Harry from the teachers that have walked in), uses a spell, 'Mobiliarbus'. to move a Christmas Tree so that it hides them.
This struck me at the time as a spell she had invented on the spot. She is a brilliant witch, as far as I'm concerned, and by POA, she already knows her stuff.
Soul Mate for Sirius - Sep 1, 2005 7:19 pm (#1714 of 2486)
Tim, I never really though she had made up that spell. I just assumed it was one she already new. What made you think she made it up on the spot? I'd be so happy if she did!!
-Jenn
Ludicrous Patents Office - Sep 1, 2005 7:49 pm (#1715 of 2486)
I think Hermione is a brilliant witch, "the cleverest of her age." Dumbledore, the Mauraders, Snape all invented things. Fred, George and probably Lee invent things. Our trio lacks that creative ability. If Hermione chooses to start inventing spells I believe she can do it. She is often impressed, in spite of herself, by Fred and George's creations. I believe she has the potential to be the Dumbledore of her generation. Her mind works on many levels. Right now it is to rigid. Like Soul Mate says, she has the first two intelligences down very good. Now she needs to move to the next level. LPO
The giant squid - Sep 2, 2005 3:47 am (#1716 of 2486)
I agree with Tim on the mobiliarbus thing. If you break it down, it basically means "move (mobili-) tree (arbus)". While it's possible such a spell already existed, what possible reason would Hermione have had to learn it before then? She could have just used wingardium leviosa for that matter.
That brings to mind something else: if you invent a spell, do you make up the name, or does the incantation "just come to you"? A question for another thread, perhaps, but it just came to me.
--Mike
Mrs Brisbee - Sep 2, 2005 6:02 am (#1717 of 2486)
I think Hermione is brilliant too, and needs only to make that one more leap to magical inventiveness to fully realize her potential. She could be the greatest witch of her time if she can manage that.
I've come to the recent depressing realization that Rowling presents the most magically powerful and inventive wizards in her books as men only. I don't know why. Voldy, Dumbledore, Snape, The Marauders, Fred, George.
haymoni - Sep 2, 2005 6:18 am (#1718 of 2486)
Amelia Bones was gifted.
Minerva certainly is.
We've been told that Alice Longbottom was an Auror.
Tonks is no slouch.
People seem to think Lily was very talented.
I don't think she's slanted things too much.
You need an old guy with a beard.
Mrs Brisbee - Sep 2, 2005 6:34 am (#1719 of 2486)
I'm talking about witches and wizards who are both magically powerful and inventive. Certainly Rowling has created great witches and strong female characters, but the top calibre ones are all men.
Amelia Bones was great, but I'd say it was her force of personality that made her so. We know little of her magic power, and nothing to say she was inventive.
McGonagall is again great because of her personality, and she is certainly powerful enough magically. I can't think of anything that suggests she is innovative, though.
Alice Longbottom was an Auror, but we know little about her.
Tonks is wonderful and has a cool talent, but again there is nothing to suggest she is inventive.
I've heard that Lily was talented, but seen no proof of it.
My point is that none of the women add up to Great Witch with capital letters. They all lack that extra inventiveness.
Hermione has the potential of being that Great Witch, if she can just learn to let herself be innovative with magic.
rambkowalczyk - Sep 2, 2005 7:06 am (#1720 of 2486)
Lily was creative if you believe Slughorn's assessment of her. Adding the mint to that particular potion etc.
Back to Hermione. I think it is argued in the lexicon that the Mobilius Arborus is an "adapted spell" because how often in daily life do you need to move a tree. The arguement in the lexicon was that the Mobilius spell could be used with any object-that you would insert the latin form of the name with Mobilius. So Hermione would have read about Mobilius 'chairum' to move a chair and adapted it for the potted tree.
If this is the case (and the lexicon uses this as an example) the Leviosa spell is similiar-that is, it can be used with any object. In book one the object was a feather -Wingardium. So the fact that Ron used Wingardium Leviosa to raise a club (to fight the ogre) implies that Ron is powerful since technically it was the wrong spell.
Back to Hermione again. She is good at using logic to improve on spells, but I think she lacks the ability to think "outside the box".
wwtMask - Sep 2, 2005 11:42 am (#1721 of 2486)
Actually, the Charms O.W.L. exam asked about the levitating spell, and I'm almost certain Harry answered Wingardium Leviosa. Also, I agree with the assessment of Hermiones "Mobiliarbus". Sirius used a similar spell to move Snape (mobilicorpus) in PoA, so I'm assuming that, like Accio, Mobilius works on the object that you name.
Also, I'm certain that Lily would be considered a powerful witch. Besides the praise from Slughorn, we know she was head girl and that, at least in potions, she was equal to or better than Snape.
Chemyst - Sep 2, 2005 2:16 pm (#1722 of 2486)
My point is that none of the women add up to Great Witch with capital letters. They all lack that extra inventiveness. - Mrs Brisbee
Well, there was Mrs. Lovegood who was inventive and she...
...never mind.
Ludicrous Patents Office - Sep 2, 2005 7:48 pm (#1723 of 2486)
LOL Chemyst. Luna certainly shows imagination! Maybe she can help Hermione get in touch with her creative side. LPO
Hedwig - Sep 4, 2005 11:43 am (#1724 of 2486)
What would force Hermione to become creative? She has done very well so far just using her knowledge that has come from books. I'm trying to think of what would actually cause her to need to tap into her creativeness. I think it will only come if any of the trio are seriously threatened without warning.
Sparrowhawk - Sep 4, 2005 2:56 pm (#1725 of 2486)
I wonder if the answer couldn't come from the HBP potions book itself... I am pretty sure that Harry wouldn't want to use it anymore, because it belonged to Snape; but if actually Harry learns that it was Lily who imagined the brilliant variations in potion-making, then I bet he and Hermione will be more than willing to use it again. Of course, it all depends on the true authorship of these variations, and we won't know for sure before book 7...
Hollywand - Sep 4, 2005 2:58 pm (#1726 of 2486)
Hermione has done plenty of creative things throughout the series from setting Snape's robes on fire to producing a contained blue flame to coins that are date/time stamps to her own Polyjuice to Impugno. She's very adept at resource and application. Harry spent a good portion of book six getting his ideas and instructions from a book, even when he wasn't sure the spells were dangerous or helpful. Ron hasn't really done anything creative in the whole series, by the book or wand. I'm not convinced the charges against Hermione Granger as an uncreative person as well founded.
Ludicrous Patents Office - Sep 4, 2005 10:03 pm (#1727 of 2486)
Hollywand Hermione is very creative when using spells that come out of a book or that have been taught to her by teachers. She is not inventive as far as I can tell. Fred and George, Dumbledore, Snape, the Mauraders all invent things. I think Hermione is capable of inventing things but she needs to break away from traditional thinking. Her annoyance at Harry for using the Half-Blood Prince's suggestions shows how bound she is to traditional learning. She was determined that the text book was the only correct way to do something. So far none of the Trio have shown an aptitude toward the creativity needed to invent. LPO
Hollywand - Sep 5, 2005 5:59 am (#1728 of 2486)
Respectfully, I disagree. A large part of Hermione's concern regarding the potions book was that the information source was unknown, and the impact of the magic used. Both the source and the impact of the magic were the core of the HBP story. It was very troubling to me that Harry would be so drawn to continuing to use the book, to the point of it being a crutch, and using spells on adversaries without considering the outcome.
I don't want to belabor the argument, but there are plenty examples of Hermione's creativity in the text, and Harry's as well. When one is learning, assimilating the information, applying it in a correct context is a good example of creative learning.
Solitaire - Sep 5, 2005 11:40 am (#1729 of 2486)
Well, Remus called Hermione the cleverest witch of her age. She (not Harry) was able to work out that Dumbledore also wanted them to save Buckbeak with the Time Turner. She also came up with the idea of using a protean spell on the fake Galleons for the DA.
Background knowledge and history are important. For example, if Harry had known a bit of Latin, he might have known that sectum was Latin for cut or amputate. Consequently, he might not have used Sectumsempra! before finding or working out the counterspell.
Whether or not Hermione invents spells does not necessarily make her uncreative. I think knowledge of theory is important before one can begin to create new spells and such. Knowing when and how to use the already existing spells, charms, potions, etc., is a big part of being creative. What's more, the greater her knowledge base of existing spells and magic, the more likely she will be able to branch out and adapt what she knows to new situations (spells, potions, etc.). She's still a kid. Give her a little time.
Solitaire
Eponine - Sep 5, 2005 12:12 pm (#1730 of 2486)
She (not Harry) was able to work out that Dumbledore also wanted them to save Buckbeak with the Time Turner.
Actually, that was movie!Hermione only.
PoA, UK paperback p. 290 'Dumbledore just said - just said we could save more than one innocent life...' And then it hit him. 'Hermione, we're going to save Buckbeak!'
Solitaire - Sep 5, 2005 8:50 pm (#1731 of 2486)
Oops! Sorry for being "movie contaminated." I should have known to check the book on anything concerning PoA, since there were so many things in the movie which, IMO, did not resemble the book. That'll teach me.
Solitaire
Ludicrous Patents Office - Sep 5, 2005 9:01 pm (#1732 of 2486)
Well said Solitaire, she is a kid and needs time! I hope she gets enough time. There is no question about her abilities. She is very intelligent and has saved the day more than once. I like how Harry is often left in awe of the amount of time Hermione puts into her studies. LPO
Wisey - Sep 6, 2005 2:05 am (#1733 of 2486)
Honestly, because Hermione has such a grounding in her studies, I think she's the one that's going to be able locate the horcruxes - the subject of ancient runes has been mentioned many times and I think there're going to be important in Bk7.
wwtMask - Sep 6, 2005 6:13 am (#1734 of 2486)
I think that the sticking point here is that, while she's still "a kid" (technically an adult, actually), she isn't nearly as advanced as other wizards were at her age. Excluding Dumbledore and Voldemort, who alone are too exceptional to really be fair, we know that the Marauders made the map and that Snape was inventing curses, all before or during their sixth year. Hermione is able to do very advanced magic, we know that much. But what we haven't seen or recognized is her ability to use magic to invent. It's all been application of what she's learned from books. While there's nothing wrong with that per se, it's the difference between being a scientist and an engineer.
Soul Mate for Sirius - Sep 6, 2005 8:30 am (#1735 of 2486)
I have to agree with wwtMask here. I would never presume to argue that Hermione isn't brilliant or clever or even creative, because she is. I think the only difference is, Hermione doesn't use her creativness to invent the way the Marauders and Snape did or the way Fred & George do.
I will agree that the Galleons in OotP that she gave to the DA members were amazingly clever, and that it took a lot of creativity to think that up and then some seriously advanced magic to make them, but what I'm waiting for is Hermione to realize that it's okay to apply that same skill and creativity to inventing spells and potions of her own. Right now she seems to have the mindframe that, while she's okay with breaking rules, she's not okay with breaking tradition or precedent by inventing spells and things of her own. Sure, she'll use spells that have already been created in creative ways to her advantage, but in order to truely become "the cleverest witch of her age" she's going to have to start thinking outside what is right in front of her and start realizing that it's okay to create new spells and things, and that it would be good for her to use her brilliant mind to further the magical world.
I mean, the magical world would never have progressed as far as they have if those witches and wizards with the ability to do so never invented new spells and potions. Look at the Wolfsbane potion Snape makes for Remus in PoA. Remus himself says it's a fairly new discovery/invention. For all we know, Hermione will be the inventor of some amazing potion to completely cure warewolves, or a spell which helps bring about the fall of LV. But she'll never do these things if she doesn't start thinking outside of her books and using her creative talents in new ways.
-Jenn
Solitaire - Sep 6, 2005 10:29 am (#1736 of 2486)
Perhaps her Muggle background makes her tend to be logical rather than creative. Having worked for a dentist--as have several of my friends--I know they are very precise, rather like engineers. The formative years of Hermione's life were spent in such an environment, so her first resort may tend to be to work within the framework of rules. Surely, as she matures and continues to spend less time in the Muggle world and more in the Wizarding world, she will begin to adapt more to their ways.
I think we have already seen that Hermione is willing and able to bend the rules a bit, when necessary. This shows that she is starting to push against her boundaries a bit. I believe that, at some point soon, her knowledge will intersect with a situation which demands all of her creativity, and I think she will rise to the challenge.
Solitaire
Ludicrous Patents Office - Sep 7, 2005 8:28 pm (#1737 of 2486)
In HBP I liked her emotional outbursts. In the the other books she seemed so analytical of emotions. Perhaps a hold over from her dentist parents. Now she is experiencing them she will grow. LPO
Soul Mate for Sirius - Sep 8, 2005 9:55 am (#1738 of 2486)
You're right LPO. Before HBP, Hermione showed very little real emotion. I mean, she was constantly worried about Harry (and Ron when need-be) but besides that, she seemed very collected when it came to her emotions (kinda like Snape in some ways ) But in HBP, her emotions are just as prevelant as Harry's and Ron's. We finally see her show an emotion bedies fear/worry or anger. I loved it! I can't wait to see how much more she grows up in book 7!
-Jenn
JILL HUBER - Sep 16, 2005 12:22 pm (#1739 of 2486)
Okay, with Hermione, it comes down to the following. She is plenty creative, she created SPEW on her own, after all. The problem is not her lack of creativity, he problem is she lacks the confidence in herself when there are no books around. Also, she is just a bit uptight, she just needs to let her hair down, so to speak.
Liessie - Sep 22, 2005 1:53 am (#1740 of 2486)
Hello all,
After following this forum with great interest for the past 2 weeks I thought it was about time to add my first post.I hope this hasn't been mentioned before I've done a search and couldn't find anything.... and its on a bit of a tangent to the current discussion....
Has anyone wondered why Hermione has only 11 OWLs? I mean that Bill and Percy seem to have in the past achieved 12 OWLs. And what were her subjects anyway – Ancient Runes, Arithmancy, Care of Magical Creatures, Potions, Charms, History of Magic, Astronomy, Herbology, Transfiguration, DADA, …and ? She dropped Muggle Studies and Divination at the end of PoA, didn't she? And for Bill and Percy to be able to do 12 subjects, did they have to have time-turners too?
kingdolohov - Sep 22, 2005 7:22 am (#1741 of 2486)
Liessie:
There has been some discussion on this subject in the specific chapter thread. Some people think that she might have taken the Muggle Studies test even though she dropped the class, but there is no concrete evidence of what the eleventh OWL is.
Liessie - Sep 22, 2005 3:50 pm (#1742 of 2486)
Thanks! I missed that! There's so much to catch up on on this forum - I'll have to do a full weekend sitting with no distractions to read everything.
RoseMorninStar - Sep 22, 2005 9:56 pm (#1743 of 2486)
I cannot imagine why Hermione wasn't able to get more 'O.W.L.s' How did Tom Riddle ... Percy... Bill & others manage to get so many? I cannot imagine that Hermione isn't as capable as some of those other students...how could they have possibly managed more classes than Hermione?
Liessie - Sep 22, 2005 10:40 pm (#1744 of 2486)
yeah, I too was disappointed with Hermione's performance
, but maybe they didn't get outstandings in almost all of their exams...just As or Es
M A Grimmett - Sep 24, 2005 11:42 am (#1745 of 2486)
Maybe it's just a continuity error.
K Stahl - Sep 24, 2005 6:24 pm (#1746 of 2486)
As perhaps the only student to have read “Hogwarts a History” Hermione is well positioned to provide some of the background for the goings-on at the school. Miss Rowling has her tell us that apparition is not possible within Hogwarts, that the ceiling of the great hall is enchanted to look like the outside sky and that muggles only see an old unsafe ruin when they look at Hogwarts. However, as Hogwarts’ resident “insufferable know-it-all”, Hermione’s character is well developed to feed us red herrings.
As I perused An Excess of Phlegm, I noticed that it was Hermione who introduced us to the idea that Nymphadora had feelings for Sirius. She even added, very authoritatively that Tonks was suffering from survivor’s guilt.
It may be worthwhile to keep an eye open for other possible Hermione red herrings. Identifying what is not can be very helpful when trying to identify what is – or what will be.
Muggle Doctor - Sep 29, 2005 3:53 pm (#1747 of 2486)
Hermione wants to release the house-elves from compulsory servitude, and that is good.
The one fact she does NOT appreciate is that release from service is equivalent for them to being fired for incompetence. House elves seem to define their self-worth and pride in terms of their competence in serving others, and a release is a slap in the face for them. Except, of course, for house-elves like Dobby, who get mistreated regardless of how well they perform: I reckon the Malfoys' treatment of him must have been driving him mad - "If he's punishing me so often despite my best work, why doesn't he just get it over with and sack me?"
Kreacher is a different matter; whereas Dobby was horrified by what he saw his masters doing ("If Dobby could tell Harry Potter what he knew, Dobby would say his masters were bad dark wizards!"), Kreacher shared (and possibly exceeded) his masters' prejudices and looked forward with pride to the day when he would be old and the Blacks would have his head on the mantlepiece.
Solitaire - Sep 30, 2005 12:09 am (#1748 of 2486)
Kreacher ... looked forward with pride to the day when he would be old and the Blacks would have his head on the mantlepiece.
Perhaps Harry can find a way to help him achieve his wish!
Muggle Doctor - Oct 3, 2005 7:45 am (#1749 of 2486)
It's called "Buckbeak", whatever his alias is.
Honour - Oct 16, 2005 1:44 pm (#1750 of 2486)
Whilst reading HBP I didn't actually take on board Hermione's explanation about Tonks, if anything, I thought it was rather quite strange that Tonks would even have romantic feelings toward Sirius? I initially thought that JKR had blatantly planted this 'red herring' I ignored it. What I did find strange though was the apparent strained relationship between Tonks and her family, that subtle hint had my antenae buzzing more than Hermione's little theory.
The Point Me spell that Harry used in the maze. Hermione invented it.
I think... I'll need to check book 4 again...
Eponine - Aug 31, 2005 1:37 pm (#1702 of 2486)
My book says,
...and the Four-Point Spell, a useful discovery of Hermione's...
GoF, UK hardback, p 529.
My US paperback says the same thing.
haymoni - Aug 31, 2005 5:24 pm (#1703 of 2486)
I took that to mean that she discovered it in one of the hundreds of books they had looked over, not that she had discovered it herself. I think the word would have been "invention" if it was hers.
Hermione IS a spy. She's already told Minerva about the Firebolt.
I wasn't surprised to see Hermione at #12. She's such a mother hen, she'd want to be near Harry, near the action. Why would she stay at home with her busy dentist parents when she could be hanging around older wizards, keeping an eye out for information that would protect Harry.
I'm pretty sure that we read Hermione & Ron weren't surprised at the Prophesy. I'm guessing Hermione's had suspicions all along. She'd want to help Harry any way that she could.
Finn BV - Aug 31, 2005 6:33 pm (#1704 of 2486)
Soul Search, your idea was touched upon in the Harry's Friend Theory Thread. The only difference was that the author of the theory, Jeremy Tuttle, believe Hermione to be an adult witch in disguise, as she is exceedingly smart for her age (to say the least ).
I think that the type of spy you are talking about, though, for Dumbledore/McGonagall, is basically just Hermione keeping an eye out for the well-being of Harry. She won't point out anything private or secret, but anything important – like the Marauders' Map, which she almost turned in – will go to McGonagall, who may or may not keep it quiet. Hermione's instincts are natural to help Harry, as she can usually get him out of a tight situation, if need be.
Eponine - Aug 31, 2005 8:43 pm (#1705 of 2486)
haymoni, that's what I took it to mean as well. Hermione didn't invent the spell, she just found it somewhere in a book.
I don't think Hermione is 'working' for Dumbledore or McGonagall in any capacity. She's just one of Harry's best friends, and she is concerned about his well-being.
Soul Search - Sep 1, 2005 5:35 am (#1706 of 2486)
Regarding "Hermione is a spy."
I don't think I would use the term "working for." I think it more likely that McGonnall would have gone to Hermione, saying "you know how Harry is always getting into trouble, we need someone that is close to Harry to help us keep him out of trouble and safe."
Hermione would go along with it, especially since it coincides with her own strong desires.
Question is, how much of what we see is Hermione being Hermione, and how much is Hermione being spy?
One scene I particularly have trouble with is in OotP when Harry wants to rush off and rescue Sirius. McGonagall is gone, so Hermione can't consult her, but she tries very hard to keep Harry from doing something rash.
I see great frustration in Hermione. She can't fulfil her role as "spy" since McGonagall isn't there and there is no one around she can turn to for help.
Mrs Brisbee - Sep 1, 2005 6:37 am (#1707 of 2486)
Interesting idea Wisey. One thing that has bothered me about Hermione she doesn't use her imagination to create/invent magic. She repeats what she knows. Now maybe she will. She has the brains. Maybe she will have the emotion now. LPO
Magical inventiveness seems to be the one thing Hermione lacks. She is brilliant. She might sound like she has swallowed the textbooks, but she obviously understands the theories behind what she has read. She tells Harry that the Half-Blood Prince's Potions book isn't really helping him because he is not learning the theory, and she's right. Harry is no longer "brilliant" in Potions once he loses the book.
Hermione is able to be non-magically creative, organizing groups like SPEW and the DA to get things done when necessary.
I wonder if it because she is Muggle born? Perhaps because of her personality she feels she needs to learn everything magical by the book first, and she won't strike out on her own until she thinks she has exhausted the knowledge of wizards.
Paulus Maximus - Sep 1, 2005 7:03 am (#1708 of 2486)
Grr... my bad. I guess in my mind, discovery equals invention.
Of course, we all know after book 6 that Hermione takes exception to treading off the beaten path, so she more likely found it in a book...
wwtMask - Sep 1, 2005 7:59 am (#1709 of 2486)
I think Hermione is brilliant but has not reached her full potential. She's still too caught up in trying to learn everything in books. She either isn't confident enough or doesn't feel the need to experiment in magic like Dumbledore or Voldemort have. I think she does understand many of the principles, but we've yet to see her do too much that isn't by the book. We know she's a powerful witch but, until we really see her try to make her own mark and build on the magical knowledge that she so highly regards, I don't think we can consider her to be a great witch.
In many ways, this seems to be very telling of the general ability level of Harry's generation. Dumbledore, Voldemort, and Snape are all exceptional wizards who've gone beyond what's in books. Even the Marauders and Lily, I think, were more advanced at their age than Harry and his friends. And so far, only Harry and Hermione have really shown themselves to be above average. I'm praying for Hermione to really break out the next book. Just as they did in the first book, they're going to need her to use her knowledge to unlock doors and deal with advanced magic.
Mrs Brisbee - Sep 1, 2005 10:04 am (#1710 of 2486)
I wouldn't count Lily amongst the brilliant just yet, for the simple reason that we have seen nothing that demonstrates her brilliance, like the Marauders Map and becoming Animagi demonstrated that James and his friends were brilliant.
For Hermione's generation, I suppose we can count Fred and George as being exceptional wizards. They are innovative, and Hermione has said several times how impressed she is with the complexity of their magical products.
Soul Mate for Sirius - Sep 1, 2005 10:28 am (#1711 of 2486)
I think Hermione has the potential to be a great witch, but as of now, she's just really really smart. I think that after everything that happened in HBP, she'll start to realize that she doesn't always have to go by the book. I'm hoping that the trio's hunt for Horcrxes will put them into a situation where Hermione will come to the rescue (like she normally does ) not with something she remembers reading in a book, but with something she comes up with all on her own. Perhaps a new spell or something.
Here's my little observation/theory/whatever: In PS/SS, when the trio is trying to get to the stone, Hermione saves the day twice. Once, (the Devil's Snare) she uses her knowledge which she has gained from books. The second time (Snape's puzzle and the potions) she uses her common sense. In my opinion, she still needs to save the day using her creativity/imagination.
Here's why, in my opinion, there are three types of intellegence: book smarts, street smarts (common sense) and creative ability.
To me, the trio represents all four qualities prized by the founders: bravery, loyalty, intellegence, and ambition. Harry represents bravery and ambition, Ron represents loyalty, and Hermione represents intellegence. In order for her to completely represent intellegence, she must demonstrate all three kinds of intellegence.
She has deomnstrated the two I mentioned above throughout the entire series. But in my mind, each of the characters will face something in book 7 that will cause them to finally represent completely the trait they stand for. I don't want to specualte what Ron and Harry will face on this thread, I'll save that for their threads, but I think Hermione will finally find herself (and the boys as well most likely) in a situation where everything she has learned from books will do her no good and she will be forced to think "outside the box"(or in her case book ) and come up with some creative solution.
I know this post is really long, and I apologize if any of this has already been speculated on, but I didn't have time to read over 1700 posts!!
Let me know what you all think!! I'm open to anyone else's ideas or critiques of my theory.
-Jenn
wwtMask - Sep 1, 2005 11:49 am (#1712 of 2486)
I'll agree about George and Fred being exceptional and I'll venture to say that they're the best all around young wizards mentioned in the book. I think we'll probably have to put Harry in that category as well. True enough, he hasn't always been the strongest wizard, but I think he's got some of the intangible qualities (bravery, creativity, instinct, force of will) that make up for where he is lacking magically. Hermione is powerful and has the smarts but I think she'll only really come into her own when she can utilize those intangibles to operate effectively outside her comfort zone.
timrew - Sep 1, 2005 3:30 pm (#1713 of 2486)
In POA, where the trio are having a drink in the Three Broomsticks in Hogsmeade, Hermione (to hid Harry from the teachers that have walked in), uses a spell, 'Mobiliarbus'. to move a Christmas Tree so that it hides them.
This struck me at the time as a spell she had invented on the spot. She is a brilliant witch, as far as I'm concerned, and by POA, she already knows her stuff.
Soul Mate for Sirius - Sep 1, 2005 7:19 pm (#1714 of 2486)
Tim, I never really though she had made up that spell. I just assumed it was one she already new. What made you think she made it up on the spot? I'd be so happy if she did!!
-Jenn
Ludicrous Patents Office - Sep 1, 2005 7:49 pm (#1715 of 2486)
I think Hermione is a brilliant witch, "the cleverest of her age." Dumbledore, the Mauraders, Snape all invented things. Fred, George and probably Lee invent things. Our trio lacks that creative ability. If Hermione chooses to start inventing spells I believe she can do it. She is often impressed, in spite of herself, by Fred and George's creations. I believe she has the potential to be the Dumbledore of her generation. Her mind works on many levels. Right now it is to rigid. Like Soul Mate says, she has the first two intelligences down very good. Now she needs to move to the next level. LPO
The giant squid - Sep 2, 2005 3:47 am (#1716 of 2486)
I agree with Tim on the mobiliarbus thing. If you break it down, it basically means "move (mobili-) tree (arbus)". While it's possible such a spell already existed, what possible reason would Hermione have had to learn it before then? She could have just used wingardium leviosa for that matter.
That brings to mind something else: if you invent a spell, do you make up the name, or does the incantation "just come to you"? A question for another thread, perhaps, but it just came to me.
--Mike
Mrs Brisbee - Sep 2, 2005 6:02 am (#1717 of 2486)
I think Hermione is brilliant too, and needs only to make that one more leap to magical inventiveness to fully realize her potential. She could be the greatest witch of her time if she can manage that.
I've come to the recent depressing realization that Rowling presents the most magically powerful and inventive wizards in her books as men only. I don't know why. Voldy, Dumbledore, Snape, The Marauders, Fred, George.
haymoni - Sep 2, 2005 6:18 am (#1718 of 2486)
Amelia Bones was gifted.
Minerva certainly is.
We've been told that Alice Longbottom was an Auror.
Tonks is no slouch.
People seem to think Lily was very talented.
I don't think she's slanted things too much.
You need an old guy with a beard.
Mrs Brisbee - Sep 2, 2005 6:34 am (#1719 of 2486)
I'm talking about witches and wizards who are both magically powerful and inventive. Certainly Rowling has created great witches and strong female characters, but the top calibre ones are all men.
Amelia Bones was great, but I'd say it was her force of personality that made her so. We know little of her magic power, and nothing to say she was inventive.
McGonagall is again great because of her personality, and she is certainly powerful enough magically. I can't think of anything that suggests she is innovative, though.
Alice Longbottom was an Auror, but we know little about her.
Tonks is wonderful and has a cool talent, but again there is nothing to suggest she is inventive.
I've heard that Lily was talented, but seen no proof of it.
My point is that none of the women add up to Great Witch with capital letters. They all lack that extra inventiveness.
Hermione has the potential of being that Great Witch, if she can just learn to let herself be innovative with magic.
rambkowalczyk - Sep 2, 2005 7:06 am (#1720 of 2486)
Lily was creative if you believe Slughorn's assessment of her. Adding the mint to that particular potion etc.
Back to Hermione. I think it is argued in the lexicon that the Mobilius Arborus is an "adapted spell" because how often in daily life do you need to move a tree. The arguement in the lexicon was that the Mobilius spell could be used with any object-that you would insert the latin form of the name with Mobilius. So Hermione would have read about Mobilius 'chairum' to move a chair and adapted it for the potted tree.
If this is the case (and the lexicon uses this as an example) the Leviosa spell is similiar-that is, it can be used with any object. In book one the object was a feather -Wingardium. So the fact that Ron used Wingardium Leviosa to raise a club (to fight the ogre) implies that Ron is powerful since technically it was the wrong spell.
Back to Hermione again. She is good at using logic to improve on spells, but I think she lacks the ability to think "outside the box".
wwtMask - Sep 2, 2005 11:42 am (#1721 of 2486)
Actually, the Charms O.W.L. exam asked about the levitating spell, and I'm almost certain Harry answered Wingardium Leviosa. Also, I agree with the assessment of Hermiones "Mobiliarbus". Sirius used a similar spell to move Snape (mobilicorpus) in PoA, so I'm assuming that, like Accio, Mobilius works on the object that you name.
Also, I'm certain that Lily would be considered a powerful witch. Besides the praise from Slughorn, we know she was head girl and that, at least in potions, she was equal to or better than Snape.
Chemyst - Sep 2, 2005 2:16 pm (#1722 of 2486)
My point is that none of the women add up to Great Witch with capital letters. They all lack that extra inventiveness. - Mrs Brisbee
Well, there was Mrs. Lovegood who was inventive and she...
...never mind.
Ludicrous Patents Office - Sep 2, 2005 7:48 pm (#1723 of 2486)
LOL Chemyst. Luna certainly shows imagination! Maybe she can help Hermione get in touch with her creative side. LPO
Hedwig - Sep 4, 2005 11:43 am (#1724 of 2486)
What would force Hermione to become creative? She has done very well so far just using her knowledge that has come from books. I'm trying to think of what would actually cause her to need to tap into her creativeness. I think it will only come if any of the trio are seriously threatened without warning.
Sparrowhawk - Sep 4, 2005 2:56 pm (#1725 of 2486)
I wonder if the answer couldn't come from the HBP potions book itself... I am pretty sure that Harry wouldn't want to use it anymore, because it belonged to Snape; but if actually Harry learns that it was Lily who imagined the brilliant variations in potion-making, then I bet he and Hermione will be more than willing to use it again. Of course, it all depends on the true authorship of these variations, and we won't know for sure before book 7...
Hollywand - Sep 4, 2005 2:58 pm (#1726 of 2486)
Hermione has done plenty of creative things throughout the series from setting Snape's robes on fire to producing a contained blue flame to coins that are date/time stamps to her own Polyjuice to Impugno. She's very adept at resource and application. Harry spent a good portion of book six getting his ideas and instructions from a book, even when he wasn't sure the spells were dangerous or helpful. Ron hasn't really done anything creative in the whole series, by the book or wand. I'm not convinced the charges against Hermione Granger as an uncreative person as well founded.
Ludicrous Patents Office - Sep 4, 2005 10:03 pm (#1727 of 2486)
Hollywand Hermione is very creative when using spells that come out of a book or that have been taught to her by teachers. She is not inventive as far as I can tell. Fred and George, Dumbledore, Snape, the Mauraders all invent things. I think Hermione is capable of inventing things but she needs to break away from traditional thinking. Her annoyance at Harry for using the Half-Blood Prince's suggestions shows how bound she is to traditional learning. She was determined that the text book was the only correct way to do something. So far none of the Trio have shown an aptitude toward the creativity needed to invent. LPO
Hollywand - Sep 5, 2005 5:59 am (#1728 of 2486)
Respectfully, I disagree. A large part of Hermione's concern regarding the potions book was that the information source was unknown, and the impact of the magic used. Both the source and the impact of the magic were the core of the HBP story. It was very troubling to me that Harry would be so drawn to continuing to use the book, to the point of it being a crutch, and using spells on adversaries without considering the outcome.
I don't want to belabor the argument, but there are plenty examples of Hermione's creativity in the text, and Harry's as well. When one is learning, assimilating the information, applying it in a correct context is a good example of creative learning.
Solitaire - Sep 5, 2005 11:40 am (#1729 of 2486)
Well, Remus called Hermione the cleverest witch of her age. She (not Harry) was able to work out that Dumbledore also wanted them to save Buckbeak with the Time Turner. She also came up with the idea of using a protean spell on the fake Galleons for the DA.
Background knowledge and history are important. For example, if Harry had known a bit of Latin, he might have known that sectum was Latin for cut or amputate. Consequently, he might not have used Sectumsempra! before finding or working out the counterspell.
Whether or not Hermione invents spells does not necessarily make her uncreative. I think knowledge of theory is important before one can begin to create new spells and such. Knowing when and how to use the already existing spells, charms, potions, etc., is a big part of being creative. What's more, the greater her knowledge base of existing spells and magic, the more likely she will be able to branch out and adapt what she knows to new situations (spells, potions, etc.). She's still a kid. Give her a little time.
Solitaire
Eponine - Sep 5, 2005 12:12 pm (#1730 of 2486)
She (not Harry) was able to work out that Dumbledore also wanted them to save Buckbeak with the Time Turner.
Actually, that was movie!Hermione only.
PoA, UK paperback p. 290 'Dumbledore just said - just said we could save more than one innocent life...' And then it hit him. 'Hermione, we're going to save Buckbeak!'
Solitaire - Sep 5, 2005 8:50 pm (#1731 of 2486)
Oops! Sorry for being "movie contaminated." I should have known to check the book on anything concerning PoA, since there were so many things in the movie which, IMO, did not resemble the book. That'll teach me.
Solitaire
Ludicrous Patents Office - Sep 5, 2005 9:01 pm (#1732 of 2486)
Well said Solitaire, she is a kid and needs time! I hope she gets enough time. There is no question about her abilities. She is very intelligent and has saved the day more than once. I like how Harry is often left in awe of the amount of time Hermione puts into her studies. LPO
Wisey - Sep 6, 2005 2:05 am (#1733 of 2486)
Honestly, because Hermione has such a grounding in her studies, I think she's the one that's going to be able locate the horcruxes - the subject of ancient runes has been mentioned many times and I think there're going to be important in Bk7.
wwtMask - Sep 6, 2005 6:13 am (#1734 of 2486)
I think that the sticking point here is that, while she's still "a kid" (technically an adult, actually), she isn't nearly as advanced as other wizards were at her age. Excluding Dumbledore and Voldemort, who alone are too exceptional to really be fair, we know that the Marauders made the map and that Snape was inventing curses, all before or during their sixth year. Hermione is able to do very advanced magic, we know that much. But what we haven't seen or recognized is her ability to use magic to invent. It's all been application of what she's learned from books. While there's nothing wrong with that per se, it's the difference between being a scientist and an engineer.
Soul Mate for Sirius - Sep 6, 2005 8:30 am (#1735 of 2486)
I have to agree with wwtMask here. I would never presume to argue that Hermione isn't brilliant or clever or even creative, because she is. I think the only difference is, Hermione doesn't use her creativness to invent the way the Marauders and Snape did or the way Fred & George do.
I will agree that the Galleons in OotP that she gave to the DA members were amazingly clever, and that it took a lot of creativity to think that up and then some seriously advanced magic to make them, but what I'm waiting for is Hermione to realize that it's okay to apply that same skill and creativity to inventing spells and potions of her own. Right now she seems to have the mindframe that, while she's okay with breaking rules, she's not okay with breaking tradition or precedent by inventing spells and things of her own. Sure, she'll use spells that have already been created in creative ways to her advantage, but in order to truely become "the cleverest witch of her age" she's going to have to start thinking outside what is right in front of her and start realizing that it's okay to create new spells and things, and that it would be good for her to use her brilliant mind to further the magical world.
I mean, the magical world would never have progressed as far as they have if those witches and wizards with the ability to do so never invented new spells and potions. Look at the Wolfsbane potion Snape makes for Remus in PoA. Remus himself says it's a fairly new discovery/invention. For all we know, Hermione will be the inventor of some amazing potion to completely cure warewolves, or a spell which helps bring about the fall of LV. But she'll never do these things if she doesn't start thinking outside of her books and using her creative talents in new ways.
-Jenn
Solitaire - Sep 6, 2005 10:29 am (#1736 of 2486)
Perhaps her Muggle background makes her tend to be logical rather than creative. Having worked for a dentist--as have several of my friends--I know they are very precise, rather like engineers. The formative years of Hermione's life were spent in such an environment, so her first resort may tend to be to work within the framework of rules. Surely, as she matures and continues to spend less time in the Muggle world and more in the Wizarding world, she will begin to adapt more to their ways.
I think we have already seen that Hermione is willing and able to bend the rules a bit, when necessary. This shows that she is starting to push against her boundaries a bit. I believe that, at some point soon, her knowledge will intersect with a situation which demands all of her creativity, and I think she will rise to the challenge.
Solitaire
Ludicrous Patents Office - Sep 7, 2005 8:28 pm (#1737 of 2486)
In HBP I liked her emotional outbursts. In the the other books she seemed so analytical of emotions. Perhaps a hold over from her dentist parents. Now she is experiencing them she will grow. LPO
Soul Mate for Sirius - Sep 8, 2005 9:55 am (#1738 of 2486)
You're right LPO. Before HBP, Hermione showed very little real emotion. I mean, she was constantly worried about Harry (and Ron when need-be) but besides that, she seemed very collected when it came to her emotions (kinda like Snape in some ways ) But in HBP, her emotions are just as prevelant as Harry's and Ron's. We finally see her show an emotion bedies fear/worry or anger. I loved it! I can't wait to see how much more she grows up in book 7!
-Jenn
JILL HUBER - Sep 16, 2005 12:22 pm (#1739 of 2486)
Okay, with Hermione, it comes down to the following. She is plenty creative, she created SPEW on her own, after all. The problem is not her lack of creativity, he problem is she lacks the confidence in herself when there are no books around. Also, she is just a bit uptight, she just needs to let her hair down, so to speak.
Liessie - Sep 22, 2005 1:53 am (#1740 of 2486)
Hello all,
After following this forum with great interest for the past 2 weeks I thought it was about time to add my first post.I hope this hasn't been mentioned before I've done a search and couldn't find anything.... and its on a bit of a tangent to the current discussion....
Has anyone wondered why Hermione has only 11 OWLs? I mean that Bill and Percy seem to have in the past achieved 12 OWLs. And what were her subjects anyway – Ancient Runes, Arithmancy, Care of Magical Creatures, Potions, Charms, History of Magic, Astronomy, Herbology, Transfiguration, DADA, …and ? She dropped Muggle Studies and Divination at the end of PoA, didn't she? And for Bill and Percy to be able to do 12 subjects, did they have to have time-turners too?
kingdolohov - Sep 22, 2005 7:22 am (#1741 of 2486)
Liessie:
There has been some discussion on this subject in the specific chapter thread. Some people think that she might have taken the Muggle Studies test even though she dropped the class, but there is no concrete evidence of what the eleventh OWL is.
Liessie - Sep 22, 2005 3:50 pm (#1742 of 2486)
Thanks! I missed that! There's so much to catch up on on this forum - I'll have to do a full weekend sitting with no distractions to read everything.
RoseMorninStar - Sep 22, 2005 9:56 pm (#1743 of 2486)
I cannot imagine why Hermione wasn't able to get more 'O.W.L.s' How did Tom Riddle ... Percy... Bill & others manage to get so many? I cannot imagine that Hermione isn't as capable as some of those other students...how could they have possibly managed more classes than Hermione?
Liessie - Sep 22, 2005 10:40 pm (#1744 of 2486)
yeah, I too was disappointed with Hermione's performance
, but maybe they didn't get outstandings in almost all of their exams...just As or Es M A Grimmett - Sep 24, 2005 11:42 am (#1745 of 2486)
Maybe it's just a continuity error.
K Stahl - Sep 24, 2005 6:24 pm (#1746 of 2486)
As perhaps the only student to have read “Hogwarts a History” Hermione is well positioned to provide some of the background for the goings-on at the school. Miss Rowling has her tell us that apparition is not possible within Hogwarts, that the ceiling of the great hall is enchanted to look like the outside sky and that muggles only see an old unsafe ruin when they look at Hogwarts. However, as Hogwarts’ resident “insufferable know-it-all”, Hermione’s character is well developed to feed us red herrings.
As I perused An Excess of Phlegm, I noticed that it was Hermione who introduced us to the idea that Nymphadora had feelings for Sirius. She even added, very authoritatively that Tonks was suffering from survivor’s guilt.
It may be worthwhile to keep an eye open for other possible Hermione red herrings. Identifying what is not can be very helpful when trying to identify what is – or what will be.
Muggle Doctor - Sep 29, 2005 3:53 pm (#1747 of 2486)
Hermione wants to release the house-elves from compulsory servitude, and that is good.
The one fact she does NOT appreciate is that release from service is equivalent for them to being fired for incompetence. House elves seem to define their self-worth and pride in terms of their competence in serving others, and a release is a slap in the face for them. Except, of course, for house-elves like Dobby, who get mistreated regardless of how well they perform: I reckon the Malfoys' treatment of him must have been driving him mad - "If he's punishing me so often despite my best work, why doesn't he just get it over with and sack me?"
Kreacher is a different matter; whereas Dobby was horrified by what he saw his masters doing ("If Dobby could tell Harry Potter what he knew, Dobby would say his masters were bad dark wizards!"), Kreacher shared (and possibly exceeded) his masters' prejudices and looked forward with pride to the day when he would be old and the Blacks would have his head on the mantlepiece.
Solitaire - Sep 30, 2005 12:09 am (#1748 of 2486)
Kreacher ... looked forward with pride to the day when he would be old and the Blacks would have his head on the mantlepiece.
Perhaps Harry can find a way to help him achieve his wish!
Muggle Doctor - Oct 3, 2005 7:45 am (#1749 of 2486)
It's called "Buckbeak", whatever his alias is.
Honour - Oct 16, 2005 1:44 pm (#1750 of 2486)
Whilst reading HBP I didn't actually take on board Hermione's explanation about Tonks, if anything, I thought it was rather quite strange that Tonks would even have romantic feelings toward Sirius? I initially thought that JKR had blatantly planted this 'red herring' I ignored it. What I did find strange though was the apparent strained relationship between Tonks and her family, that subtle hint had my antenae buzzing more than Hermione's little theory.
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Ydnam96 - Dec 23, 2005 10:09 am (#1751 of 2486)
Honour, I can agree. I thought the whole thing was odd...mostly because Sirius was her cousin. But maybe that's not frowned upon in the wizarding world.
Hermione is usually pretty astute when it comes to "love" stuff. I'm suprised she got this one so wrong. But maybe JK didn't want to give away the suprise too soon?
Choices - Dec 23, 2005 1:27 pm (#1752 of 2486)
I never thought that what Hermione said indicated that Tonks was "in" love with Sirius - just that she loved him as a relation, part of her family. She felt responsible of his death in a way because she failed to get Belatrix when she had the chance.
K Stahl - Dec 25, 2005 6:20 pm (#1753 of 2486)
As Hogwarts resident "insufferable know-it-all" Hermione is well placed to feed the reader a most delicious dish of red herring. Always look at what she says with an eye toward it being a red herring.
Aqualu Nifey - Dec 31, 2005 2:54 pm (#1754 of 2486)
Hermione doesn't always produce red herrings, though, she is most often a source of valuable information that can't reach Harry without her. I think without Hermione, Harry might be running around like a chicken with its head cut off.
frogface - Jan 2, 2006 5:34 am (#1755 of 2486)
Without Hermione, Harry would be dead. That or stuck in that potion room leading to the Philosopher's Stone!
K Stahl - Jan 2, 2006 2:12 pm (#1756 of 2486)
A red herring works best when it comes from a character of established ability. It was Hermione who created the rationale for Tonks' gloomy demeanor by suggesting that she was so affected by Sirius' death. Harry and the reader know that Mrs. Weasley tried to entice her to come to dinner by mentioning that Remus and Mad-Eye will be there.
Incidentally, it was Ron who questioned that particular conclusion. Hermione brushes off his doubt by introducing "survivor’s guilt".
Just as Hermione with her demonstrated competence is perfectly positioned to introduce red herrings, so Ron, the trio’s resident inept, is perfectly positioned to offer us real clues as to what the real situation might be. It was Ron who asked why Snape did not turn Harry in after he learned that he was using his old potions book. Again, it was Hermione who brushed off his question with a condescending explanation that Snape did not want Dumbledore to know. After how much Dumbledore affirmed his trust in Snape, this is a particularly lame response. Ron’s question is given no more thought.
My point is, and has always been, that red herrings are best introduced by a character who provides valuable information elsewhere and that hidden clues are best introduced by a character who almost never provides valuable information. Hide a gem amongst the garbage and hide deception amongst the gems.
And yes, it is somewhat disappointing to have a hero as dense as Harry. However, he does seem to have finally matured the requisite six years in the HBP. I look forward to a much more exciting seventh novel.
Steve Newton - Jan 2, 2006 7:59 pm (#1757 of 2486)
Situ, you mention Ron as "the trio’s resident inept." I think that you will find that Ron is the main idea man in HBP. He usually asks the right question or comes up with the right conclusion. I think that it is evident that the brain attack in the DOM has had an affect. Hermione even compliments his conclusions on a couple of occasions.
Aqualu Nifey - Jan 2, 2006 11:44 pm (#1758 of 2486)
Well, I thought the real reason Hermione started complimenting Ron was for another reason... but that's for the shipping thread, I suppose. =D
Matilda the Pygmy Puff - Jan 4, 2006 12:38 pm (#1759 of 2486)
JKR has said before that she uses Dumbledore and Hermione as sources of truth, so anything they say is almost always true. That would make the red herring idea false,wouldn't it, Since she would be providing a false conclusion? However, maybe her role is shifting now that Harry and Ron have become more tuned in.
Lina - Jan 4, 2006 2:09 pm (#1760 of 2486)
Well, whether we talk about Hermione or Dumbledore, I think we should be able to see the difference between their assumptions and the facts that they are talking about. When they think something, it doesn't have to be always the truth. Even they are not always sure that they are right.
Aqualu Nifey - Jan 6, 2006 11:06 pm (#1761 of 2486)
Well, remember what Lupin said, Dumbledore's shrewd guesses usually turn out to be accurate.
Solitaire - Jan 7, 2006 12:40 am (#1762 of 2486)
I still remember Dumbledore's comment to Harry, though, that when he makes mistakes, they tend to be correspondingly bigger ones. Are we being prepared for his having made a really BIG mistake?
Solitaire
Chemyst - Jan 7, 2006 7:04 pm (#1763 of 2486)
Are we being prepared for his having made a really BIG mistake?
Only for the first half of Book 7. I still expect him to be right in the end.
...as for Hermione, this being her thread and all, I think her character will have to toss the books to be correct in the end.
Solitaire - Jan 7, 2006 8:18 pm (#1764 of 2486)
What a jolt for the poor girl!
Aqualu Nifey - Jan 7, 2006 10:01 pm (#1765 of 2486)
Why would she have to toss the books?
haymoni - Jan 7, 2006 10:06 pm (#1766 of 2486)
Hermione needs to think outside the box - I mean, books - a bit.
She's got the knowledge. Now she needs to get practical.
Those attacking birds were quite handy. Could have been emotional magic, the way they attacked Ron, but magic along those lines is what I'd like to see from her in Book 7.
More action, less running to the library.
Aqualu Nifey - Jan 8, 2006 1:04 am (#1767 of 2486)
They're still pretty useful, though. The library's helped the trio out countless times. She shouldn't be *dependent* on the library, but to completely toss the books aside wouldn't be Hermione.
TomProffitt - Jan 8, 2006 8:20 am (#1768 of 2486)
"More action, less running to the library." --- haymoni
We saw in OP that Hermione is capable of adapting to taking action. It's not her strong suit though. She is more of a Minerva McGonagall than a Remus Lupin or Sirius Black.
Wand Maker - Jan 8, 2006 9:24 am (#1769 of 2486)
I don't think that Hermione needs to toss the books. She might if she were alone, but she is part of a trio. She is the books of the trio. Ron has the strategy. Harry has the instincts.
Steve Newton - Jan 8, 2006 9:59 am (#1770 of 2486)
What's wrong with running to the library?
Detail Seeker - Jan 8, 2006 1:56 pm (#1771 of 2486)
It takes time, time needed for action in some occasions.
But having read (and learnt) enough before the need arises may save having to go there, when under pressure. So, as always, there is a time for reading and a time for acting.
MickeyCee3948 - Jan 8, 2006 2:26 pm (#1772 of 2486)
I'm not sure Detail Seeker, Book 7 is going to need alot of book/brain work for Harry to find the remaining horcruxes. This will be right down Hermione's alley. But on the whole I agree that she will probably need be far more proactive in this book.
Mickey
Detail Seeker - Jan 8, 2006 2:34 pm (#1773 of 2486)
Mickey, we are not dissenting. Proactive reading to be ready to react, when the situation arrives is definitvely needed by all three of our protagonists, so that no reading is needed, when things get hot. Then, there is a need to act fast and effective. So, I am not an advocate of putting the books aside by principle.
But, Hermione cannot rely on knowing everything in advance. She will have to learn to react on an instinctive feeling of how to react and not based on a thorough book analysis of the situation. Having read enough before will make this easier, as it sharpens the instincts.
MickeyCee3948 - Jan 8, 2006 2:38 pm (#1774 of 2486)
AGREED Detail Seeker!
Mickey
Solitaire - Jan 8, 2006 4:00 pm (#1775 of 2486)
Proactive reading ... is definitvely needed by all three of our protagonists
True, Detail Seeker ... but I don't have much hope for getting Ron or Harry into the library.
Nice to see you, Mickey! I hope all is well!
Solitaire
Ydnam96 - Jan 8, 2006 10:34 pm (#1776 of 2486)
I agree with you Detail Seeker, Hermione will probably study up as much as possible to prepare...but it would be silly of her to rely soley upon the book knowledge in a practical sense. I think she figured that out in Umbridges class. My mind is fuzzy about how the scene plays out in the book, but doesn't she as how they are supposed to learn the defenses if they are only studying the books? It seems she may be maturing past her unsufferable know it all stage at least where lugging books around is concerned.
Plus, where are they going to find a book on Horcruxes anyway?
Chemyst - Jan 9, 2006 6:22 am (#1777 of 2486)
Plus, where are they going to find a book on Horcruxes anyway?
Durmstrang? ...If Hermione mentions wanting to make a trip to Viktor's home turf, it could force Ron to face– and vocalize– his true feelings for her.
MickeyCee3948 - Jan 9, 2006 8:29 am (#1778 of 2486)
Why not have Viktor come to England. Jo has said we would see him again I believe and there isn't much time left so either Hermie is going there or he will be coming to her. I think Ron has already made his feelings known to Hermione just not public to the world.
Mickey
Hedwig - Jan 9, 2006 2:50 pm (#1779 of 2486)
That is an interesting thought that Ron has already confessed his feelings for Hermione. It is possible because we usually only see the books through Harry's perspective. I wonder if Ron and Hermione could keep that kind of relationship from Harry being as they know each other so well.
Detail Seeker - Jan 9, 2006 3:11 pm (#1780 of 2486)
Plus, where are they going to find a book on Horcruxes anyway?
In the Room of Requirement ?
frogface - Jan 9, 2006 3:31 pm (#1781 of 2486)
The way they were behaving at Dumbledore's funeral made me think that they were probably already practically an item. They certainly seem just about ready for it.
Aqualu Nifey - Jan 10, 2006 7:15 pm (#1782 of 2486)
Yeah, it seemed to me that they were going out, just Ron hadn't asked her, yet. If that makes any sense at all.
I don't think Hermione's only contribution to the big showdown is going to be a book about horcruxes, but it could very well be her brain power and ability to make connections that will lead Harry to them, as Mickey said. She will be able to learn something in a book or classroom and apply it to what she already knows or will find out.
TomProffitt - Jan 10, 2006 10:59 pm (#1783 of 2486)
We talk alot about Hermione's book knowledge, but it seems to me that her practical knowledge is excellent as well. Isn't she always the first one to accomplish tasks assigned to the students? Isn't she the one who can fix Neville's potions? Isn't she the one who can cast Protean charms and conjour flocks of little birds?
Harry will need someone along on his search for the Horcruxes who can find little boats and know when to give secret doors blood. That someone will be Hermione.
K Stahl - Jan 11, 2006 10:59 am (#1784 of 2486)
What would really be neat is if she could conjure a flock of small dragons. Think how that might mess with a gaggle of death eaters.
mike miller - Jan 11, 2006 11:47 am (#1785 of 2486)
I think we may have already seen Hermione's big contribution for book seven; the back issues of the Daily Prophet. If we work on the assumption that Voldemort used "significant" murders (his own father and grandfather) and "significant" artifacts (Slytherin's necklace) to create his horcruxes, it may be possible to find clues in old issues of the Prophet. Who better to find them than Hermione?
I think the R.A.B. clue is obvious to help the trio down the path; however, the trio will need Hermione's research skills to find the rest of the horcruxes.
I rather like the idea of Viktor providing some information to help understand about horcruxes. I think they will have one in their possession very soon; but how to destroy it creates a new problem. Detail Seeker has a good idea with the RoR, only I'm not sure how easy it would be to find the right book (Accio Horcrux Book?).
Next item - Hermione and Ron have come to realize how they feel about each other; and, they are both relieved by that fact. Also, Harry is more than OK with the situation. Ginny, however, is not OK with just letting Harry go (but that's for a different thread).
Ydnam96 - Jan 14, 2006 10:34 am (#1786 of 2486)
I think it is possible they are acting on their feelings for each other, Ron is obviously trying to comfort her during the funeral, but it is possible they just haven't realized how far those feelings have gone just yet. I think they will in book 7.
It is also possible that they have talked about it, but have decided not to act on their feelings because of the things going on with Harry and their not wanting to distract them from his "quest".
But I think something will happen during the wedding And I'm excited It's time they were happy!
Mrs. Sirius - Jan 17, 2006 11:33 pm (#1787 of 2486)
I am reading GOF to my daughter and I rediscover this. In the 'Weighing of the Wands', Mr Olivander tests each contestants wand and finished by casting a spell.
In checking Krum's wand, he say "Avis" and "number of small twittering birds flew out of the end".
In HBP, after Hermione and Ron fight, Hermione unleashes a pack of twittering birds that attack Ron. I can't find the chapter now, (do any of you know which it is?) I'm pretty sure it is the same spell.
By this point I thought we were pretty established that Hermione would eventual be paired of with Ron, especially since we have not hear from Krum in 3 books. I wonder if this one of JKR's little hints?
David Turell - Jan 19, 2006 4:10 pm (#1788 of 2486)
I don't understand how Hermione's parents can appear in the Leaky Cauldron and on Diagon Alley since they are Muggles, in Chapter 4 CoS. Is there a special charm that allows this? Hermione can exchange Muggle money at Gringotts, Chapter 4 PoA. This must be an interface between the two worlds. Please comment.
TomProffitt - Jan 19, 2006 5:51 pm (#1789 of 2486)
David, with out Hermione I doubt that they could have joined her in those places. As Dumbledore approached Tom Riddle & Hagrid approached Harry, I am certain that a member of the Hogwart's staff was sent to meet with the Grangers. It would have been through this meeting that it would have been explained how to get to those places with accompanying Muggle parents.
With the numbers of Muggleborns at the school I'm sure that the staff is quite accustomed to making these explanations.
David Turell - Jan 19, 2006 6:30 pm (#1790 of 2486)
Tom: Thanks.I'm sure that is the right answer. It raises the next question: How does Hogwarts know when the Muggleborns are delivered at the hospitals? Storkmail?
The giant squid - Jan 20, 2006 2:14 am (#1791 of 2486)
It seems a cop-out, David, but the only answer is: magic.
--Mike
Esther Rose - Jan 20, 2006 7:25 am (#1792 of 2486)
David,
Don't tell me you believe that ALL the doctors in the hospitals are muggles. ;-) Some may be wizards or witches incognito, others may be squibs. Don't forget there are photos in the hospitals as well.
ex-FAHgeek - Jan 20, 2006 9:52 am (#1793 of 2486)
---quote--- How does Hogwarts know when the Muggleborns are delivered at the hospitals? Storkmail? ---end quote---
According to JKR, there's a magical quill in Hogwarts that detects the birth of magical children and writes their names down in a book. Each year, Professor McGonegall checks the book to find out which children are turning 11 and sends them their invitations to come to Hogwarts.
David Turell - Jan 20, 2006 9:57 am (#1794 of 2486)
Thanks to all: After Esther Rose's comments about photos I assumed Hogwarts looked for newborn babies who were wriggling in their pictures. JKR has a more direct method, and she should know.
Choices - Jan 20, 2006 7:32 pm (#1795 of 2486)
Mrs. Sirius, the spell Hermione uses to set the twittering birds on Ron is "Oppugno", not "Avis" that Ollivander uses.
haymoni - Jan 20, 2006 10:10 pm (#1796 of 2486)
She may have created the birds with "Avis" and then set them on Won-Won with "Oppugno".
David Turell - Jan 21, 2006 11:27 am (#1797 of 2486)
One last thought about Hermione: she gets her Hogwarts invitation letter. She's never heard of the place or that it is a school of magic. How do she and her parents respond? Who helps them? If this came to me, a Muggle, for one of my kids, I'd think it was a hoax. Is there a visitation by one of the faculty, as in Harry's case? Please explain. Has JKR commented, as I am sure this has been covered in the past? Thanks.
Weeny Owl - Jan 21, 2006 2:08 pm (#1798 of 2486)
There is a representative sent to non-Magical students to explain Hogwarts and the Wizarding World, and JKR did say that it really isn't that much of a shock to the Muggle parents since they've obviously seen their children do odd things from time to time, and they finally have an explanation as to what these odd things are.
Solitaire - Jan 21, 2006 7:49 pm (#1799 of 2486)
Weeny is right, I think. Didn't Hermione say something along those lines in PS/SS--something about realizing she was different? It seems to stick in my mind, although ...
Solitaire
MickeyCee3948 - Jan 21, 2006 8:58 pm (#1800 of 2486)
Such as when Dumbledore went to the Orphanage to talk to the head mistress or what ever you call her.
Mickey
Honour, I can agree. I thought the whole thing was odd...mostly because Sirius was her cousin. But maybe that's not frowned upon in the wizarding world.
Hermione is usually pretty astute when it comes to "love" stuff. I'm suprised she got this one so wrong. But maybe JK didn't want to give away the suprise too soon?
Choices - Dec 23, 2005 1:27 pm (#1752 of 2486)
I never thought that what Hermione said indicated that Tonks was "in" love with Sirius - just that she loved him as a relation, part of her family. She felt responsible of his death in a way because she failed to get Belatrix when she had the chance.
K Stahl - Dec 25, 2005 6:20 pm (#1753 of 2486)
As Hogwarts resident "insufferable know-it-all" Hermione is well placed to feed the reader a most delicious dish of red herring. Always look at what she says with an eye toward it being a red herring.
Aqualu Nifey - Dec 31, 2005 2:54 pm (#1754 of 2486)
Hermione doesn't always produce red herrings, though, she is most often a source of valuable information that can't reach Harry without her. I think without Hermione, Harry might be running around like a chicken with its head cut off.
frogface - Jan 2, 2006 5:34 am (#1755 of 2486)
Without Hermione, Harry would be dead. That or stuck in that potion room leading to the Philosopher's Stone!
K Stahl - Jan 2, 2006 2:12 pm (#1756 of 2486)
A red herring works best when it comes from a character of established ability. It was Hermione who created the rationale for Tonks' gloomy demeanor by suggesting that she was so affected by Sirius' death. Harry and the reader know that Mrs. Weasley tried to entice her to come to dinner by mentioning that Remus and Mad-Eye will be there.
Incidentally, it was Ron who questioned that particular conclusion. Hermione brushes off his doubt by introducing "survivor’s guilt".
Just as Hermione with her demonstrated competence is perfectly positioned to introduce red herrings, so Ron, the trio’s resident inept, is perfectly positioned to offer us real clues as to what the real situation might be. It was Ron who asked why Snape did not turn Harry in after he learned that he was using his old potions book. Again, it was Hermione who brushed off his question with a condescending explanation that Snape did not want Dumbledore to know. After how much Dumbledore affirmed his trust in Snape, this is a particularly lame response. Ron’s question is given no more thought.
My point is, and has always been, that red herrings are best introduced by a character who provides valuable information elsewhere and that hidden clues are best introduced by a character who almost never provides valuable information. Hide a gem amongst the garbage and hide deception amongst the gems.
And yes, it is somewhat disappointing to have a hero as dense as Harry. However, he does seem to have finally matured the requisite six years in the HBP. I look forward to a much more exciting seventh novel.
Steve Newton - Jan 2, 2006 7:59 pm (#1757 of 2486)
Situ, you mention Ron as "the trio’s resident inept." I think that you will find that Ron is the main idea man in HBP. He usually asks the right question or comes up with the right conclusion. I think that it is evident that the brain attack in the DOM has had an affect. Hermione even compliments his conclusions on a couple of occasions.
Aqualu Nifey - Jan 2, 2006 11:44 pm (#1758 of 2486)
Well, I thought the real reason Hermione started complimenting Ron was for another reason... but that's for the shipping thread, I suppose. =D
Matilda the Pygmy Puff - Jan 4, 2006 12:38 pm (#1759 of 2486)
JKR has said before that she uses Dumbledore and Hermione as sources of truth, so anything they say is almost always true. That would make the red herring idea false,wouldn't it, Since she would be providing a false conclusion? However, maybe her role is shifting now that Harry and Ron have become more tuned in.
Lina - Jan 4, 2006 2:09 pm (#1760 of 2486)
Well, whether we talk about Hermione or Dumbledore, I think we should be able to see the difference between their assumptions and the facts that they are talking about. When they think something, it doesn't have to be always the truth. Even they are not always sure that they are right.
Aqualu Nifey - Jan 6, 2006 11:06 pm (#1761 of 2486)
Well, remember what Lupin said, Dumbledore's shrewd guesses usually turn out to be accurate.
Solitaire - Jan 7, 2006 12:40 am (#1762 of 2486)
I still remember Dumbledore's comment to Harry, though, that when he makes mistakes, they tend to be correspondingly bigger ones. Are we being prepared for his having made a really BIG mistake?
Solitaire
Chemyst - Jan 7, 2006 7:04 pm (#1763 of 2486)
Are we being prepared for his having made a really BIG mistake?
Only for the first half of Book 7. I still expect him to be right in the end.
...as for Hermione, this being her thread and all, I think her character will have to toss the books to be correct in the end.
Solitaire - Jan 7, 2006 8:18 pm (#1764 of 2486)
What a jolt for the poor girl!
Aqualu Nifey - Jan 7, 2006 10:01 pm (#1765 of 2486)
Why would she have to toss the books?
haymoni - Jan 7, 2006 10:06 pm (#1766 of 2486)
Hermione needs to think outside the box - I mean, books - a bit.
She's got the knowledge. Now she needs to get practical.
Those attacking birds were quite handy. Could have been emotional magic, the way they attacked Ron, but magic along those lines is what I'd like to see from her in Book 7.
More action, less running to the library.
Aqualu Nifey - Jan 8, 2006 1:04 am (#1767 of 2486)
They're still pretty useful, though. The library's helped the trio out countless times. She shouldn't be *dependent* on the library, but to completely toss the books aside wouldn't be Hermione.
TomProffitt - Jan 8, 2006 8:20 am (#1768 of 2486)
"More action, less running to the library." --- haymoni
We saw in OP that Hermione is capable of adapting to taking action. It's not her strong suit though. She is more of a Minerva McGonagall than a Remus Lupin or Sirius Black.
Wand Maker - Jan 8, 2006 9:24 am (#1769 of 2486)
I don't think that Hermione needs to toss the books. She might if she were alone, but she is part of a trio. She is the books of the trio. Ron has the strategy. Harry has the instincts.
Steve Newton - Jan 8, 2006 9:59 am (#1770 of 2486)
What's wrong with running to the library?
Detail Seeker - Jan 8, 2006 1:56 pm (#1771 of 2486)
It takes time, time needed for action in some occasions.
But having read (and learnt) enough before the need arises may save having to go there, when under pressure. So, as always, there is a time for reading and a time for acting.
MickeyCee3948 - Jan 8, 2006 2:26 pm (#1772 of 2486)
I'm not sure Detail Seeker, Book 7 is going to need alot of book/brain work for Harry to find the remaining horcruxes. This will be right down Hermione's alley. But on the whole I agree that she will probably need be far more proactive in this book.
Mickey
Detail Seeker - Jan 8, 2006 2:34 pm (#1773 of 2486)
Mickey, we are not dissenting. Proactive reading to be ready to react, when the situation arrives is definitvely needed by all three of our protagonists, so that no reading is needed, when things get hot. Then, there is a need to act fast and effective. So, I am not an advocate of putting the books aside by principle.
But, Hermione cannot rely on knowing everything in advance. She will have to learn to react on an instinctive feeling of how to react and not based on a thorough book analysis of the situation. Having read enough before will make this easier, as it sharpens the instincts.
MickeyCee3948 - Jan 8, 2006 2:38 pm (#1774 of 2486)
AGREED Detail Seeker!
Mickey
Solitaire - Jan 8, 2006 4:00 pm (#1775 of 2486)
Proactive reading ... is definitvely needed by all three of our protagonists
True, Detail Seeker ... but I don't have much hope for getting Ron or Harry into the library.
Nice to see you, Mickey! I hope all is well!
Solitaire
Ydnam96 - Jan 8, 2006 10:34 pm (#1776 of 2486)
I agree with you Detail Seeker, Hermione will probably study up as much as possible to prepare...but it would be silly of her to rely soley upon the book knowledge in a practical sense. I think she figured that out in Umbridges class. My mind is fuzzy about how the scene plays out in the book, but doesn't she as how they are supposed to learn the defenses if they are only studying the books? It seems she may be maturing past her unsufferable know it all stage at least where lugging books around is concerned.
Plus, where are they going to find a book on Horcruxes anyway?
Chemyst - Jan 9, 2006 6:22 am (#1777 of 2486)
Plus, where are they going to find a book on Horcruxes anyway?
Durmstrang? ...If Hermione mentions wanting to make a trip to Viktor's home turf, it could force Ron to face– and vocalize– his true feelings for her.
MickeyCee3948 - Jan 9, 2006 8:29 am (#1778 of 2486)
Why not have Viktor come to England. Jo has said we would see him again I believe and there isn't much time left so either Hermie is going there or he will be coming to her. I think Ron has already made his feelings known to Hermione just not public to the world.
Mickey
Hedwig - Jan 9, 2006 2:50 pm (#1779 of 2486)
That is an interesting thought that Ron has already confessed his feelings for Hermione. It is possible because we usually only see the books through Harry's perspective. I wonder if Ron and Hermione could keep that kind of relationship from Harry being as they know each other so well.
Detail Seeker - Jan 9, 2006 3:11 pm (#1780 of 2486)
Plus, where are they going to find a book on Horcruxes anyway?
In the Room of Requirement ?
frogface - Jan 9, 2006 3:31 pm (#1781 of 2486)
The way they were behaving at Dumbledore's funeral made me think that they were probably already practically an item. They certainly seem just about ready for it.
Aqualu Nifey - Jan 10, 2006 7:15 pm (#1782 of 2486)
Yeah, it seemed to me that they were going out, just Ron hadn't asked her, yet. If that makes any sense at all.
I don't think Hermione's only contribution to the big showdown is going to be a book about horcruxes, but it could very well be her brain power and ability to make connections that will lead Harry to them, as Mickey said. She will be able to learn something in a book or classroom and apply it to what she already knows or will find out.
TomProffitt - Jan 10, 2006 10:59 pm (#1783 of 2486)
We talk alot about Hermione's book knowledge, but it seems to me that her practical knowledge is excellent as well. Isn't she always the first one to accomplish tasks assigned to the students? Isn't she the one who can fix Neville's potions? Isn't she the one who can cast Protean charms and conjour flocks of little birds?
Harry will need someone along on his search for the Horcruxes who can find little boats and know when to give secret doors blood. That someone will be Hermione.
K Stahl - Jan 11, 2006 10:59 am (#1784 of 2486)
What would really be neat is if she could conjure a flock of small dragons. Think how that might mess with a gaggle of death eaters.
mike miller - Jan 11, 2006 11:47 am (#1785 of 2486)
I think we may have already seen Hermione's big contribution for book seven; the back issues of the Daily Prophet. If we work on the assumption that Voldemort used "significant" murders (his own father and grandfather) and "significant" artifacts (Slytherin's necklace) to create his horcruxes, it may be possible to find clues in old issues of the Prophet. Who better to find them than Hermione?
I think the R.A.B. clue is obvious to help the trio down the path; however, the trio will need Hermione's research skills to find the rest of the horcruxes.
I rather like the idea of Viktor providing some information to help understand about horcruxes. I think they will have one in their possession very soon; but how to destroy it creates a new problem. Detail Seeker has a good idea with the RoR, only I'm not sure how easy it would be to find the right book (Accio Horcrux Book?).
Next item - Hermione and Ron have come to realize how they feel about each other; and, they are both relieved by that fact. Also, Harry is more than OK with the situation. Ginny, however, is not OK with just letting Harry go (but that's for a different thread).
Ydnam96 - Jan 14, 2006 10:34 am (#1786 of 2486)
I think it is possible they are acting on their feelings for each other, Ron is obviously trying to comfort her during the funeral, but it is possible they just haven't realized how far those feelings have gone just yet. I think they will in book 7.
It is also possible that they have talked about it, but have decided not to act on their feelings because of the things going on with Harry and their not wanting to distract them from his "quest".
But I think something will happen during the wedding
And I'm excited It's time they were happy! Mrs. Sirius - Jan 17, 2006 11:33 pm (#1787 of 2486)
I am reading GOF to my daughter and I rediscover this. In the 'Weighing of the Wands', Mr Olivander tests each contestants wand and finished by casting a spell.
In checking Krum's wand, he say "Avis" and "number of small twittering birds flew out of the end".
In HBP, after Hermione and Ron fight, Hermione unleashes a pack of twittering birds that attack Ron. I can't find the chapter now, (do any of you know which it is?) I'm pretty sure it is the same spell.
By this point I thought we were pretty established that Hermione would eventual be paired of with Ron, especially since we have not hear from Krum in 3 books. I wonder if this one of JKR's little hints?
David Turell - Jan 19, 2006 4:10 pm (#1788 of 2486)
I don't understand how Hermione's parents can appear in the Leaky Cauldron and on Diagon Alley since they are Muggles, in Chapter 4 CoS. Is there a special charm that allows this? Hermione can exchange Muggle money at Gringotts, Chapter 4 PoA. This must be an interface between the two worlds. Please comment.
TomProffitt - Jan 19, 2006 5:51 pm (#1789 of 2486)
David, with out Hermione I doubt that they could have joined her in those places. As Dumbledore approached Tom Riddle & Hagrid approached Harry, I am certain that a member of the Hogwart's staff was sent to meet with the Grangers. It would have been through this meeting that it would have been explained how to get to those places with accompanying Muggle parents.
With the numbers of Muggleborns at the school I'm sure that the staff is quite accustomed to making these explanations.
David Turell - Jan 19, 2006 6:30 pm (#1790 of 2486)
Tom: Thanks.I'm sure that is the right answer. It raises the next question: How does Hogwarts know when the Muggleborns are delivered at the hospitals? Storkmail?
The giant squid - Jan 20, 2006 2:14 am (#1791 of 2486)
It seems a cop-out, David, but the only answer is: magic.
--Mike
Esther Rose - Jan 20, 2006 7:25 am (#1792 of 2486)
David,
Don't tell me you believe that ALL the doctors in the hospitals are muggles. ;-) Some may be wizards or witches incognito, others may be squibs. Don't forget there are photos in the hospitals as well.
ex-FAHgeek - Jan 20, 2006 9:52 am (#1793 of 2486)
---quote--- How does Hogwarts know when the Muggleborns are delivered at the hospitals? Storkmail? ---end quote---
According to JKR, there's a magical quill in Hogwarts that detects the birth of magical children and writes their names down in a book. Each year, Professor McGonegall checks the book to find out which children are turning 11 and sends them their invitations to come to Hogwarts.
David Turell - Jan 20, 2006 9:57 am (#1794 of 2486)
Thanks to all: After Esther Rose's comments about photos I assumed Hogwarts looked for newborn babies who were wriggling in their pictures. JKR has a more direct method, and she should know.
Choices - Jan 20, 2006 7:32 pm (#1795 of 2486)
Mrs. Sirius, the spell Hermione uses to set the twittering birds on Ron is "Oppugno", not "Avis" that Ollivander uses.
haymoni - Jan 20, 2006 10:10 pm (#1796 of 2486)
She may have created the birds with "Avis" and then set them on Won-Won with "Oppugno".
David Turell - Jan 21, 2006 11:27 am (#1797 of 2486)
One last thought about Hermione: she gets her Hogwarts invitation letter. She's never heard of the place or that it is a school of magic. How do she and her parents respond? Who helps them? If this came to me, a Muggle, for one of my kids, I'd think it was a hoax. Is there a visitation by one of the faculty, as in Harry's case? Please explain. Has JKR commented, as I am sure this has been covered in the past? Thanks.
Weeny Owl - Jan 21, 2006 2:08 pm (#1798 of 2486)
There is a representative sent to non-Magical students to explain Hogwarts and the Wizarding World, and JKR did say that it really isn't that much of a shock to the Muggle parents since they've obviously seen their children do odd things from time to time, and they finally have an explanation as to what these odd things are.
Solitaire - Jan 21, 2006 7:49 pm (#1799 of 2486)
Weeny is right, I think. Didn't Hermione say something along those lines in PS/SS--something about realizing she was different? It seems to stick in my mind, although ...
Solitaire
MickeyCee3948 - Jan 21, 2006 8:58 pm (#1800 of 2486)
Such as when Dumbledore went to the Orphanage to talk to the head mistress or what ever you call her.
Mickey
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K Stahl - Jan 21, 2006 9:50 pm (#1801 of 2486)
Dumbledore call Mrs. Cole the matron.
Choices - Jan 22, 2006 11:40 am (#1802 of 2486)
Weeny - "There is a representative sent to non-Magical students to explain Hogwarts..."
Much like Dumbledore went to see Tom Riddle to inform him he was a wizard and could attend Hogwarts, and Hagrid went to see Harry with much the same information and his letter to Hogwarts.
Chemyst - Jan 22, 2006 1:25 pm (#1803 of 2486)
Hagrid did go to see Harry, but only after a few hundred owls and two dozen eggs brought letters first. On the other hand, Petunia, and through her, Vernon, already knew about Hogwarts, so I'd think Minerva probably didn't see a need to have the first letter hand-delivered.
Solitaire - Jan 22, 2006 4:08 pm (#1804 of 2486)
Too bad she didn't, Chemyst. I kind of get the idea Minerva could put both Pet and Uncle Vernon in their places very smartly! It is a sight I would LOVE to see! **evil grin**
Solitaire
João Paulo Costa - Jan 23, 2006 9:22 am (#1805 of 2486)
Hello all: I have a question that has been bothering me for a few days. It concerns Hermione's grades at her OWLs:
From book six, chapter 5 ("An Excess of Phlegm"), we have Ron's statement:
"Yep, ten 'Outstanding' and one 'Exeeds Expectations' at Defense Against the Dark Arts...", which means that she made eleven exams.
Now, the subjects we know she took are:
1*DADA.........................E
2*Care of Magical Creatures....O
3*Transfiguration..............O
4*Potions......................O
5*Charms.......................O
6*Herbology....................O
7*Astronomy....................O
8*History of Magic.............O
9*Arithmancy...................O
10*Ancien Runes.................O
which totalize 10 grades, and not eleven.
I consulted both the Academics and Staff part of the Lexicon to make sure, and the subjects that are tought at Hogwarts and are not present at this list are:
- Flying lessons (broom): only for first years, aperently, and there are no indication of a OWL for this.
- Divination: Hermione gave up this one during her third year;
- Muggle studies: she also gave up this one at the end of the third year.
So my question is: What is the 11th subject in which she got an 'Outstending'?
If this has already been anwsered somewhere at the Lexicon or the forums, quindly point me the page or entry. Thank you in advance.
Joao Paulo.
Weeny Owl - Jan 23, 2006 10:53 am (#1806 of 2486)
I think it was just that either JKR or her editor made a boo-boo.
They know Hermione dropped two subjects. Harry received seven O.W.L.s out of nine subjects, so add two subjects he wasn't taking and that makes eleven.
JKR could say that Hermione took the O.W.L. in Muggle Studies even though she wasn't taking the class. She already proved how well she can do in the subject, so perhaps the examiners allowed her to take the test anyway.
Esther Rose - Jan 23, 2006 11:02 am (#1807 of 2486)
Or since this is from Harry's point of view, Harry got so excited he actually got a better grade than Hermione on DADA that he didn't look too seriously at the last class. =) Maybe Hermione got an O in Invisible and Vanishing Studies.
mike miller - Jan 23, 2006 11:19 am (#1808 of 2486)
Minerva may have assigned Hermione and "Independent Study" course for number eleven.
Solitaire - Jan 23, 2006 12:14 pm (#1809 of 2486)
Could she have sat the OWL exam for Muggle Studies, even though she dropped it after the first year? After all, having grown up as a Muggle for the first eleven years of her life, she certainly would be an expert!
Solitaire
Soul Search - Jan 23, 2006 1:33 pm (#1810 of 2486)
And, we are still guessing, what is Arithmancy?
We have commented that Hermione's Ancient Runes study could help Harry with Horcruxes, maybe. Could Arithmancy also be something that can help Harry?
K Stahl - Jan 23, 2006 2:12 pm (#1811 of 2486)
Arithmancy is divination by positive integers.
Derived from the following:
-mancy A combining form denoting divination.
Aleurmancy is divination by flour.
Webster's New International Dictionary of the English Language, Second Edition, unabridged 1948.
K Stahl - Jan 23, 2006 3:31 pm (#1812 of 2486)
Correction:
Arithmancy is divination by positive real numbers.
Arithmetic: The art of computation by use of positive real numbers.
Webster's New International Dictionary of the English Language, Second Edition, unabridged 1948.
Soul Search - Jan 23, 2006 3:41 pm (#1813 of 2486)
Hermione was rather enthusastic about arithmancy; I am surprised if it is only divination. She didn't think much of divination, or at least Trelawney, at all.
Arithmancy has been mentioned since PoA; must make some appearance in book seven. I wonder if it is the kind of divination that could help Harry find horcruxes. Something like, add up the number values for the letters in "horcrux," divide by letter values in "Voldemort," go to #12 Grimauld Place to find a horcrux. Must be more complicated; she has been studying it for four years.
Chemyst - Jan 23, 2006 5:11 pm (#1814 of 2486)
Hermione didn't like Trelawny's kind of divination because there was so much slop to it. When the tea leaves swirl into a conical shape, who is to say if what you are seeing is a wineglass, a wolf's snout , a lamp shade, or a tornado? In Arithmancy, names are converted into numbers; the numbers have specific, consistent interpretations, such as 1- solid, solitary, 2- communication and balance, 3- wholeness (spirit, soul, body), etc. Hermione seems to accept this form of divination because addition is not so fuzzy. 1 + 1 = 2 every time.
Before I found the forum, I'd just assumed that 'Arithmancy' was a word JKR made up to sound more like a real subject than numerology. But it's a method of divination by numbers that goes back to the Chaldeans and Greeks. The Greek word arithmetike means counting. It could be complicated enough to study for four years because you'd look for number patterns of matching names, places, objects, dates, etc. I like your idea that it could help Harry find horcruxes.
Soul Search - Jan 24, 2006 7:51 am (#1815 of 2486)
This discussion about arithmancy has got me wondering. Hermione has been studying it for four years. Surely, she has tried it. With Harry as the subject.
Ever notice those times when Hermione seems very confident and keeps pushing Harry. Maybe she has used arithmancy and has devined the future. She is directing Harry towards a predestined outcome.
She might be so enthused about arithmancy because it has proven to work for her.
TwinklingBlueEyes - Jan 24, 2006 4:22 pm (#1816 of 2486)
Soul Search, that was a good thought! (You ought to try thinking more often!)
Great idea!
David Turell - Jan 24, 2006 6:02 pm (#1817 of 2486)
About the missing OWL subject, it occurs to me that this is a broad examination covering all of the first five years of study, much like an SAT or ACT, LSAT (law), MCAT (medicine)and equivalent to similar exams in UK. She had year end exams in the past but I'll bet she was retested to see what she had retained to achieve her OWL level.
ex-FAHgeek - Jan 26, 2006 2:18 pm (#1818 of 2486)
Edited by Jan 26, 2006 1:18 pm
---quote--- Muggle studies: she also gave up this one at the end of the third year. ---end quote---
She gave up taking the class, but she already knew everything anyway (as Ron pointed out - her parents are Muggles.) I just assumed she sat for the exam to see how well she would do (I've done it before myself.) It's the sort of thing she would do for fun. I can even imagine her finding it to be relaxing: a test for which she didn't need to study, in which she can show off her first hand knowledge, and simply test her general knowledge.
Solitaire - Jan 28, 2006 9:22 pm (#1819 of 2486)
That's what I thought, ex-FAH (although I got the drop year wrong). Even though she'd stopped taking the course, I'm betting she probably sat the exam. Why not? It would probably be an "easy OWL" for her!
Solitaire
João Paulo Costa - Jan 30, 2006 5:08 am (#1820 of 2486)
Quote from ex-FAHgeek. Jan 26, 2006 1:18 pm (#1818 of 1819):
"She gave up taking the class, but she already knew everything anyway (as Ron pointed out - her parents are Muggles.) I just assumed she sat for the exam to see how well she would do (I've done it before myself.) It's the sort of thing she would do for fun. I can even imagine her finding it to be relaxing: a test for which she didn't need to study, in which she can show off her first hand knowledge, and simply test her general knowledge."
ex-FAHgeek, I think this would be the only reasonably explanation, taking into acount Hermione's character. The only other hypotesis would be an error made by the author or the editor.
Aqualu Nifey - Jan 31, 2006 10:49 am (#1821 of 2486)
Or it could be just another Flint...
Wizadora - Feb 1, 2006 2:56 pm (#1822 of 2486)
I always thought it was unfair to allow muggleborn witches and wizards to take muggle studies as they would know all of the information already!
Weeny Owl - Feb 1, 2006 3:31 pm (#1823 of 2486)
Hermione wanted to take the class to see how the Wizarding World viewed Muggles. Just because she is a Muggleborn wouldn't mean she would know everything that was taught since the way Muggles are viewed could be completely different than living as one.
haymoni - Feb 2, 2006 6:15 am (#1824 of 2486)
Oh, puleeezzz! I didn't buy that for a second.
She wanted to take that class so she could be the insufferable know-it-all!!!!
frogface - Feb 2, 2006 6:19 am (#1825 of 2486)
It could be the muggleborns are encouraged to study it actually. After all you need a qualification to work in some area's of muggle relations, and seeing as muggleborns are more likely to understand muggle society, alot of them may choose to work in those area's once they leave school.
Weeny Owl - Feb 2, 2006 11:31 am (#1826 of 2486)
Hermione was in second year when she chose the classes she would take in third year, and she chose all of them.
I'm not sure it was that she wanted to be a know-it-all as much as it was that she was still feeling her way in a new world and wanted to learn everything, even how the Wizarding World views Muggles.
Aqualu Nifey - Feb 4, 2006 3:23 pm (#1827 of 2486)
It's not that uncommon, taking a class like Muggle Studies when you're a Muggle. A lot of kids at my school take Spanish even though they already speak it. There's a kid in my French class who's from France. I think it's actually good for the other students in the class to hear them speak with an accent and learn more about the culture.
ex-FAHgeek - Feb 5, 2006 2:00 pm (#1828 of 2486)
Besides, I think all students enjoy taking classes in which they have strong backgrounds. Hermione taking Muggle Studies is no different than having the class math-wiz take Calculus, the compulsive reader take a Literature class, or the one who took instrument lessors take a Music class.
Solitaire - Feb 6, 2006 12:03 am (#1829 of 2486)
As one who has grown up in a Muggle household, Hermione (like her fellow Muggle-borns) is in a great position to provide those who hve always lived in the magical world with some important insights about Muggledom. As wonderful as Mr. Weasley is, he still sees Muggles as an exotic species and is a bit too enthralled with them sometimes to be practical. Dumbledore and Remus seem to have a more realistic understanding of the Muggle world.
In the future, I can see Hermione working as a Wizard-Muggle liaison. She would probably be a great one to "interface" with the Muggle Prime Minister. In fact, I could see HER as a future Minister of Magic!
Solitaire
Puck - Feb 6, 2006 9:04 pm (#1830 of 2486)
I wonder if there has ever been a Minister that isn't a pureblood...
Aqualu Nifey - Feb 6, 2006 11:41 pm (#1831 of 2486)
Hermione would be PERFECT for Minister of Magic!
*Wanders off making Granger for Minister posters and bumper stickers*
Detail Seeker - Feb 11, 2006 7:16 am (#1832 of 2486)
Actually, what does a 13-year old muggleborn child now about the whole Muggle World. A world he/she left at the age of 11. A lot about family life, basic schooling, daily habits: yes. But the knowledge of Muggel society, broader aspects of Muggle life, Muggle economy will be limited at least - depending on upbringing. So, if these aspects where taught at Hogwarts, even the muggleborn wizards might learn a lot in "Muggle Studies". I very much doubt, that economy is a theme in JKR´s wizardry.
So, what is the point of this topic ? I think, it is just to teach children to "blend in", to know enough about Muggles to camouflage themselves, if in contact with Muggles. No wonder, that Hermione lost interest after one year.
Looking at the knowledge present in wizardry, one even might wonder, how long this topic topic has been taught at Hogwarts. Perhaps it was introduced by Dumbledore after taking over Headmastership.
Caius Iulius - Feb 13, 2006 12:58 pm (#1833 of 2486)
I am with you, Aqualu Nifey. Go Hermione!
Muggle Doctor - Mar 9, 2006 7:21 am (#1834 of 2486)
I think Hermione especially would know much more about the Muggle world at eleven than most other children. Please bear in mind that she also returns to it for her holidays, and receives regular updates at those times (and no doubt in mail from her parents), and/or reads her pretty little head into a spin to fill in time (Muggle as well as wizarding books).
I would actually like to see her taken out of the quest (not killed; perhaps paralyzed or wounded a la the basilisk episode) at a middling stage, in order to force Harry to adopt her methods or perish. He will show what he has learned from all his friends, and Hermione's gifts will be cool-headedness and intellect.
Solitaire - Mar 9, 2006 8:05 am (#1835 of 2486)
Please bear in mind that she also returns to it for her holidays
Actually, Hermione seems to have spent most of her Christmas holidays since PoA either at school or with Harry and the Weasleys. She also seems to have been with them a good deal of each summer since GoF. I doubt this would be enough to wipe out her Muggle memories, however.
Unlike Muggle Doc, I do not wish to see Hermione get too far away from Harry ... he needs her cool logic!
Solitaire
Muggle Doctor - Mar 9, 2006 8:32 am (#1836 of 2486)
A-ha, yes I agree, but see my latest post on Harry!
I agree she spends most of her holiday time with her Wizarding friends now, but she does return to the Muggle world with the rest of them for most of the books. HBP/book 7 may be the exception. Remember that she's a year older than the others; she turned 12 shortly after terms started. At the end of HBP, she is already an adult wizard, and she may not go home at all.
Somebody should write a really good fanfic describing the relationship between her and her parents, how it evolves and changes, and how the Grangers cope with gradually watching their daughter grow away from them, knowing that when she leaves for her final year of school, they've practically already lost her. (By which I mean, she achieves her independence and is ready to take her own path in life, independent of their wishes and/or decisions, not that they will never see her again if she survives.)
TheSaint - Mar 9, 2006 8:49 pm (#1837 of 2486)
I would actually like to see her taken out of the quest (not killed; perhaps paralyzed or wounded a la the basilisk episode) at a middling stage, in order to force Harry to adopt her methods or perish. Muggle Doc
Isn't this what happened in COS when she was petrified?
Die Zimtzicke - Mar 10, 2006 10:02 am (#1838 of 2486)
Newbie here, who has almost gone blind trying to read the whole thread...
I liked Hermione before HbP, but not much during it. (I never was an H/Hr shipper, so don't think that's why) I don't know whey the prefect things got dropped so much. I just don't know why SPEW got dropped like that, either, and Hermione seemed out of character to me in other ways. Usually she's fighting so hard to fit into this new world she's found, but in both OotP and HbP she acts like she's an expert on everything. It was cute when she was Little Miss Booksmart in the early books, but sometimes you have to think outside the box, as others have said before. (Maybe that's what Luna's for. I don't know.)And I know it's a sore subject here, but I think it was horrible that Marietta still had the spots, when Umbridge, who was the cause of all the trouble, just went back to her cushy Ministry job. Why does the child have to pay the price but the adult does not?
A lot of people got used by other people in this book, the way Hermione used McClaggan and I didn't see that as normal teenaged behavior. I have a teen and two former teens, and teens don't all have to be cruel to grow up.
I didn't expect the Grangers to come back up, because Jo seems to feel they are just not interesting enough, but it makes me wonder why Hermione has to be so completely cut off from her roots.
One of the best things Jo did before this book in my opinion was settle the argument about Hermione's age. That made things more logical for me.
Solitaire - Mar 11, 2006 7:50 pm (#1839 of 2486)
Teens do not have to be cruel to grow up, Die Z, but many of them are. Your children may not be cruel, but cruelty is touching the lives of children more and more, and at increasingly younger ages. I see it with horror, day after day, in the news. I believe some of this is being reflected in Harry's world.
I don't want to get the thing about Marietta's spots going again, but she is bearing the results of betraying her friends. I often wonder whether, if she would admit her error and express remorsse, the spots might not disappear. Whatever the case, she serves as a warning to those who would treat a contract lightly.
As for Umbridge, we do not yet know her ultimate fate. Just because she escaped once does not mean she may not meet the end she justly deserves.
Solitaire
Puck - Mar 12, 2006 6:07 am (#1840 of 2486)
I don't think Hermione feels the need to try to fit i anymore. This is her world, she has proven herself in it. She has always been a bit of a know-it-all.
They are not children anymore. We all change a bit as we age, so we can't expect the characters to stay the exact same from book to book. Jo does this in a realistic way.
Solitaire - Mar 12, 2006 11:02 am (#1841 of 2486)
They are not children anymore.
Exactly, Puck. These kids are in a real war, and the fact that they are kids isn't shielding them from the violence. People are dying at the hands of the enemy. By the beginning of HBP, Harry has seen two people (Sirius and Cedric) murdered and has learned of the murders of two others (Amelia Bones and Emmeline Vance) he met the previous year. He and five of his friends have faced off with DEs in the DoM, and he has now faced Voldemort--in one form or another--on more than one occasion. This isn't DA practice or dueling club with Snape and Lockhart. Harry knows he is playing for keeps this time. Lives are at stake.
From this point on, Harry and any "kids" who fight with him are going to have to fight as adults and play by adult rules. One or more of them will probably take a life, and some of them may die in the process.
Hermione has assimilated into the magical world well, I think. She has a very strong sense of honor and integrity ... but like Harry, she has learned that when one is fighting an enemy who plays by his own rules, she may have to bend the rules in order to survive. Since that night when they jumped through the trap door and landed in the Devil's Snare--and Ron had to remind her that she was a witch and could light a fire without wood--Hermione has acquitted herself pretty well, I think.
Solitaire
LooneyLuna - Mar 12, 2006 6:21 pm (#1842 of 2486)
From this point on, Harry and any "kids" who fight with him are going to have to fight as adults and play by adult rules. - Solitaire.
Excellent point! The Order of the Phoenix also has to realize that this war is not a game. I think the Order was surprised at the violence/vehemence of the DEs during the attach at Hogwarts in HBP. I also think it was good that Hermione was wrong about Draco. She needs to trust Harry's instincts (as does Ron).
Hermione has proven herself over and over again as being an asset to Harry. I have no doubt that Hermione will be instrumental in helping Harry in book 7.
K Stahl - Mar 13, 2006 7:46 am (#1843 of 2486)
The fact that Umbridge appears to have not been held accountable is par for the course in politics. It serves to highlight the corrupt nature of the Ministry of Magic.
Stringer - Mar 30, 2006 12:28 pm (#1844 of 2486)
This is off topic, but... What Books do you wish Hermione would read and discuss..
Top 100 known Horcrux by R.A.B.
Visiting beyond the veil by Sir Black
Death of a Dark Lord by A.P.W.B. Dumbledore
Finn BV - Mar 30, 2006 12:33 pm (#1845 of 2486)
Stringer, you might like to post your idea on the thread + Book for Charity We'd Like to Read (and are willing to pay for!), which is located in the = Opinions Group Section Folder.
Jewel - Apr 23, 2006 10:08 pm (#1846 of 2486)
I believe Hermione, as well as Ron will definetly be crucial assets to Harry in book 7. Hermione is bound to be reading up over the holidays. Maybe her connection with Krum could be helpful in finding out more about horcruxes. Wasn't it said somewhere that Durmstrang is a school that deals more in the dark arts more so than Hogwarts, that put the emphasis on defense against them? Maybe Krum could send her some books on the matter.
Solitaire - Apr 24, 2006 7:28 am (#1847 of 2486)
I think Krum may actually come to see Hermione in England. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see him take refuge in Hogwarts, if some sort of coup happens on the Continent. He will certainly be aware of Karkaroff's death, and since Durmstrang does study the Dark Arts, I could see it being seized as a base of operations for Voldemort's forces. If Krum actually does love Hermione, he may also fear for her safety and show up to help her in some way. We know she had corresponded with him at some point during her fifth year. What about her sixth? The problem with actively seeking his help with Horcruxes is that he is not stupid ... I think he would begin to put 2 and 2 together and figure out what Harry & Co. are up to. The more people who know about the Horcruxes, the more vulnerable the information is to being disclosed to the wrong people. Dumbledore seemed to sanction Ron and Hermione knowing, but he didn't suggest telling anyone else.
Solitaire
Holly T. - Apr 24, 2006 7:47 am (#1848 of 2486)
Shouldn't Krum be out of school by now, though? So what would it matter if the DE's take over Durmstrang?
I shouldn't be trying to think today, sleep deprived.
Die Zimtzicke - Apr 24, 2006 11:00 am (#1849 of 2486)
If Krum has been trying to build up support against Voldemort in Europe, and by extension Dumbledore, and Dumbledore is now dead, I think he will have to leave Eastern Europe, and could well come back to see Hermione.
Choices - Apr 24, 2006 4:44 pm (#1850 of 2486)
Have there been hints that Krum is building up support against Voldemort in Europe? I thought he only had time for school and Quidditch and the TriWizard Tournament. He never struck me as a political sort.
Dumbledore call Mrs. Cole the matron.
Choices - Jan 22, 2006 11:40 am (#1802 of 2486)
Weeny - "There is a representative sent to non-Magical students to explain Hogwarts..."
Much like Dumbledore went to see Tom Riddle to inform him he was a wizard and could attend Hogwarts, and Hagrid went to see Harry with much the same information and his letter to Hogwarts.
Chemyst - Jan 22, 2006 1:25 pm (#1803 of 2486)
Hagrid did go to see Harry, but only after a few hundred owls and two dozen eggs brought letters first. On the other hand, Petunia, and through her, Vernon, already knew about Hogwarts, so I'd think Minerva probably didn't see a need to have the first letter hand-delivered.
Solitaire - Jan 22, 2006 4:08 pm (#1804 of 2486)
Too bad she didn't, Chemyst. I kind of get the idea Minerva could put both Pet and Uncle Vernon in their places very smartly! It is a sight I would LOVE to see! **evil grin**
Solitaire
João Paulo Costa - Jan 23, 2006 9:22 am (#1805 of 2486)
Hello all: I have a question that has been bothering me for a few days. It concerns Hermione's grades at her OWLs:
From book six, chapter 5 ("An Excess of Phlegm"), we have Ron's statement:
"Yep, ten 'Outstanding' and one 'Exeeds Expectations' at Defense Against the Dark Arts...", which means that she made eleven exams.
Now, the subjects we know she took are:
1*DADA.........................E
2*Care of Magical Creatures....O
3*Transfiguration..............O
4*Potions......................O
5*Charms.......................O
6*Herbology....................O
7*Astronomy....................O
8*History of Magic.............O
9*Arithmancy...................O
10*Ancien Runes.................O
which totalize 10 grades, and not eleven.
I consulted both the Academics and Staff part of the Lexicon to make sure, and the subjects that are tought at Hogwarts and are not present at this list are:
- Flying lessons (broom): only for first years, aperently, and there are no indication of a OWL for this.
- Divination: Hermione gave up this one during her third year;
- Muggle studies: she also gave up this one at the end of the third year.
So my question is: What is the 11th subject in which she got an 'Outstending'?
If this has already been anwsered somewhere at the Lexicon or the forums, quindly point me the page or entry. Thank you in advance.
Joao Paulo.
Weeny Owl - Jan 23, 2006 10:53 am (#1806 of 2486)
I think it was just that either JKR or her editor made a boo-boo.
They know Hermione dropped two subjects. Harry received seven O.W.L.s out of nine subjects, so add two subjects he wasn't taking and that makes eleven.
JKR could say that Hermione took the O.W.L. in Muggle Studies even though she wasn't taking the class. She already proved how well she can do in the subject, so perhaps the examiners allowed her to take the test anyway.
Esther Rose - Jan 23, 2006 11:02 am (#1807 of 2486)
Or since this is from Harry's point of view, Harry got so excited he actually got a better grade than Hermione on DADA that he didn't look too seriously at the last class. =) Maybe Hermione got an O in Invisible and Vanishing Studies.
mike miller - Jan 23, 2006 11:19 am (#1808 of 2486)
Minerva may have assigned Hermione and "Independent Study" course for number eleven.
Solitaire - Jan 23, 2006 12:14 pm (#1809 of 2486)
Could she have sat the OWL exam for Muggle Studies, even though she dropped it after the first year? After all, having grown up as a Muggle for the first eleven years of her life, she certainly would be an expert!
Solitaire
Soul Search - Jan 23, 2006 1:33 pm (#1810 of 2486)
And, we are still guessing, what is Arithmancy?
We have commented that Hermione's Ancient Runes study could help Harry with Horcruxes, maybe. Could Arithmancy also be something that can help Harry?
K Stahl - Jan 23, 2006 2:12 pm (#1811 of 2486)
Arithmancy is divination by positive integers.
Derived from the following:
-mancy A combining form denoting divination.
Aleurmancy is divination by flour.
Webster's New International Dictionary of the English Language, Second Edition, unabridged 1948.
K Stahl - Jan 23, 2006 3:31 pm (#1812 of 2486)
Correction:
Arithmancy is divination by positive real numbers.
Arithmetic: The art of computation by use of positive real numbers.
Webster's New International Dictionary of the English Language, Second Edition, unabridged 1948.
Soul Search - Jan 23, 2006 3:41 pm (#1813 of 2486)
Hermione was rather enthusastic about arithmancy; I am surprised if it is only divination. She didn't think much of divination, or at least Trelawney, at all.
Arithmancy has been mentioned since PoA; must make some appearance in book seven. I wonder if it is the kind of divination that could help Harry find horcruxes. Something like, add up the number values for the letters in "horcrux," divide by letter values in "Voldemort," go to #12 Grimauld Place to find a horcrux. Must be more complicated; she has been studying it for four years.
Chemyst - Jan 23, 2006 5:11 pm (#1814 of 2486)
Hermione didn't like Trelawny's kind of divination because there was so much slop to it. When the tea leaves swirl into a conical shape, who is to say if what you are seeing is a wineglass, a wolf's snout , a lamp shade, or a tornado? In Arithmancy, names are converted into numbers; the numbers have specific, consistent interpretations, such as 1- solid, solitary, 2- communication and balance, 3- wholeness (spirit, soul, body), etc. Hermione seems to accept this form of divination because addition is not so fuzzy. 1 + 1 = 2 every time.
Before I found the forum, I'd just assumed that 'Arithmancy' was a word JKR made up to sound more like a real subject than numerology. But it's a method of divination by numbers that goes back to the Chaldeans and Greeks. The Greek word arithmetike means counting. It could be complicated enough to study for four years because you'd look for number patterns of matching names, places, objects, dates, etc. I like your idea that it could help Harry find horcruxes.
Soul Search - Jan 24, 2006 7:51 am (#1815 of 2486)
This discussion about arithmancy has got me wondering. Hermione has been studying it for four years. Surely, she has tried it. With Harry as the subject.
Ever notice those times when Hermione seems very confident and keeps pushing Harry. Maybe she has used arithmancy and has devined the future. She is directing Harry towards a predestined outcome.
She might be so enthused about arithmancy because it has proven to work for her.
TwinklingBlueEyes - Jan 24, 2006 4:22 pm (#1816 of 2486)
Soul Search, that was a good thought! (You ought to try thinking more often!)
Great idea!
David Turell - Jan 24, 2006 6:02 pm (#1817 of 2486)
About the missing OWL subject, it occurs to me that this is a broad examination covering all of the first five years of study, much like an SAT or ACT, LSAT (law), MCAT (medicine)and equivalent to similar exams in UK. She had year end exams in the past but I'll bet she was retested to see what she had retained to achieve her OWL level.
ex-FAHgeek - Jan 26, 2006 2:18 pm (#1818 of 2486)
Edited by Jan 26, 2006 1:18 pm
---quote--- Muggle studies: she also gave up this one at the end of the third year. ---end quote---
She gave up taking the class, but she already knew everything anyway (as Ron pointed out - her parents are Muggles.) I just assumed she sat for the exam to see how well she would do (I've done it before myself.) It's the sort of thing she would do for fun. I can even imagine her finding it to be relaxing: a test for which she didn't need to study, in which she can show off her first hand knowledge, and simply test her general knowledge.
Solitaire - Jan 28, 2006 9:22 pm (#1819 of 2486)
That's what I thought, ex-FAH (although I got the drop year wrong). Even though she'd stopped taking the course, I'm betting she probably sat the exam. Why not? It would probably be an "easy OWL" for her!
Solitaire
João Paulo Costa - Jan 30, 2006 5:08 am (#1820 of 2486)
Quote from ex-FAHgeek. Jan 26, 2006 1:18 pm (#1818 of 1819):
"She gave up taking the class, but she already knew everything anyway (as Ron pointed out - her parents are Muggles.) I just assumed she sat for the exam to see how well she would do (I've done it before myself.) It's the sort of thing she would do for fun. I can even imagine her finding it to be relaxing: a test for which she didn't need to study, in which she can show off her first hand knowledge, and simply test her general knowledge."
ex-FAHgeek, I think this would be the only reasonably explanation, taking into acount Hermione's character. The only other hypotesis would be an error made by the author or the editor.
Aqualu Nifey - Jan 31, 2006 10:49 am (#1821 of 2486)
Or it could be just another Flint...
Wizadora - Feb 1, 2006 2:56 pm (#1822 of 2486)
I always thought it was unfair to allow muggleborn witches and wizards to take muggle studies as they would know all of the information already!
Weeny Owl - Feb 1, 2006 3:31 pm (#1823 of 2486)
Hermione wanted to take the class to see how the Wizarding World viewed Muggles. Just because she is a Muggleborn wouldn't mean she would know everything that was taught since the way Muggles are viewed could be completely different than living as one.
haymoni - Feb 2, 2006 6:15 am (#1824 of 2486)
Oh, puleeezzz! I didn't buy that for a second.
She wanted to take that class so she could be the insufferable know-it-all!!!!
frogface - Feb 2, 2006 6:19 am (#1825 of 2486)
It could be the muggleborns are encouraged to study it actually. After all you need a qualification to work in some area's of muggle relations, and seeing as muggleborns are more likely to understand muggle society, alot of them may choose to work in those area's once they leave school.
Weeny Owl - Feb 2, 2006 11:31 am (#1826 of 2486)
Hermione was in second year when she chose the classes she would take in third year, and she chose all of them.
I'm not sure it was that she wanted to be a know-it-all as much as it was that she was still feeling her way in a new world and wanted to learn everything, even how the Wizarding World views Muggles.
Aqualu Nifey - Feb 4, 2006 3:23 pm (#1827 of 2486)
It's not that uncommon, taking a class like Muggle Studies when you're a Muggle. A lot of kids at my school take Spanish even though they already speak it. There's a kid in my French class who's from France. I think it's actually good for the other students in the class to hear them speak with an accent and learn more about the culture.
ex-FAHgeek - Feb 5, 2006 2:00 pm (#1828 of 2486)
Besides, I think all students enjoy taking classes in which they have strong backgrounds. Hermione taking Muggle Studies is no different than having the class math-wiz take Calculus, the compulsive reader take a Literature class, or the one who took instrument lessors take a Music class.
Solitaire - Feb 6, 2006 12:03 am (#1829 of 2486)
As one who has grown up in a Muggle household, Hermione (like her fellow Muggle-borns) is in a great position to provide those who hve always lived in the magical world with some important insights about Muggledom. As wonderful as Mr. Weasley is, he still sees Muggles as an exotic species and is a bit too enthralled with them sometimes to be practical. Dumbledore and Remus seem to have a more realistic understanding of the Muggle world.
In the future, I can see Hermione working as a Wizard-Muggle liaison. She would probably be a great one to "interface" with the Muggle Prime Minister. In fact, I could see HER as a future Minister of Magic!
Solitaire
Puck - Feb 6, 2006 9:04 pm (#1830 of 2486)
I wonder if there has ever been a Minister that isn't a pureblood...
Aqualu Nifey - Feb 6, 2006 11:41 pm (#1831 of 2486)
Hermione would be PERFECT for Minister of Magic!
*Wanders off making Granger for Minister posters and bumper stickers*
Detail Seeker - Feb 11, 2006 7:16 am (#1832 of 2486)
Actually, what does a 13-year old muggleborn child now about the whole Muggle World. A world he/she left at the age of 11. A lot about family life, basic schooling, daily habits: yes. But the knowledge of Muggel society, broader aspects of Muggle life, Muggle economy will be limited at least - depending on upbringing. So, if these aspects where taught at Hogwarts, even the muggleborn wizards might learn a lot in "Muggle Studies". I very much doubt, that economy is a theme in JKR´s wizardry.
So, what is the point of this topic ? I think, it is just to teach children to "blend in", to know enough about Muggles to camouflage themselves, if in contact with Muggles. No wonder, that Hermione lost interest after one year.
Looking at the knowledge present in wizardry, one even might wonder, how long this topic topic has been taught at Hogwarts. Perhaps it was introduced by Dumbledore after taking over Headmastership.
Caius Iulius - Feb 13, 2006 12:58 pm (#1833 of 2486)
I am with you, Aqualu Nifey. Go Hermione!
Muggle Doctor - Mar 9, 2006 7:21 am (#1834 of 2486)
I think Hermione especially would know much more about the Muggle world at eleven than most other children. Please bear in mind that she also returns to it for her holidays, and receives regular updates at those times (and no doubt in mail from her parents), and/or reads her pretty little head into a spin to fill in time (Muggle as well as wizarding books).
I would actually like to see her taken out of the quest (not killed; perhaps paralyzed or wounded a la the basilisk episode) at a middling stage, in order to force Harry to adopt her methods or perish. He will show what he has learned from all his friends, and Hermione's gifts will be cool-headedness and intellect.
Solitaire - Mar 9, 2006 8:05 am (#1835 of 2486)
Please bear in mind that she also returns to it for her holidays
Actually, Hermione seems to have spent most of her Christmas holidays since PoA either at school or with Harry and the Weasleys. She also seems to have been with them a good deal of each summer since GoF. I doubt this would be enough to wipe out her Muggle memories, however.
Unlike Muggle Doc, I do not wish to see Hermione get too far away from Harry ... he needs her cool logic!
Solitaire
Muggle Doctor - Mar 9, 2006 8:32 am (#1836 of 2486)
A-ha, yes I agree, but see my latest post on Harry!
I agree she spends most of her holiday time with her Wizarding friends now, but she does return to the Muggle world with the rest of them for most of the books. HBP/book 7 may be the exception. Remember that she's a year older than the others; she turned 12 shortly after terms started. At the end of HBP, she is already an adult wizard, and she may not go home at all.
Somebody should write a really good fanfic describing the relationship between her and her parents, how it evolves and changes, and how the Grangers cope with gradually watching their daughter grow away from them, knowing that when she leaves for her final year of school, they've practically already lost her. (By which I mean, she achieves her independence and is ready to take her own path in life, independent of their wishes and/or decisions, not that they will never see her again if she survives.)
TheSaint - Mar 9, 2006 8:49 pm (#1837 of 2486)
I would actually like to see her taken out of the quest (not killed; perhaps paralyzed or wounded a la the basilisk episode) at a middling stage, in order to force Harry to adopt her methods or perish. Muggle Doc
Isn't this what happened in COS when she was petrified?
Die Zimtzicke - Mar 10, 2006 10:02 am (#1838 of 2486)
Newbie here, who has almost gone blind trying to read the whole thread...
I liked Hermione before HbP, but not much during it. (I never was an H/Hr shipper, so don't think that's why) I don't know whey the prefect things got dropped so much. I just don't know why SPEW got dropped like that, either, and Hermione seemed out of character to me in other ways. Usually she's fighting so hard to fit into this new world she's found, but in both OotP and HbP she acts like she's an expert on everything. It was cute when she was Little Miss Booksmart in the early books, but sometimes you have to think outside the box, as others have said before. (Maybe that's what Luna's for. I don't know.)And I know it's a sore subject here, but I think it was horrible that Marietta still had the spots, when Umbridge, who was the cause of all the trouble, just went back to her cushy Ministry job. Why does the child have to pay the price but the adult does not?
A lot of people got used by other people in this book, the way Hermione used McClaggan and I didn't see that as normal teenaged behavior. I have a teen and two former teens, and teens don't all have to be cruel to grow up.
I didn't expect the Grangers to come back up, because Jo seems to feel they are just not interesting enough, but it makes me wonder why Hermione has to be so completely cut off from her roots.
One of the best things Jo did before this book in my opinion was settle the argument about Hermione's age. That made things more logical for me.
Solitaire - Mar 11, 2006 7:50 pm (#1839 of 2486)
Teens do not have to be cruel to grow up, Die Z, but many of them are. Your children may not be cruel, but cruelty is touching the lives of children more and more, and at increasingly younger ages. I see it with horror, day after day, in the news. I believe some of this is being reflected in Harry's world.
I don't want to get the thing about Marietta's spots going again, but she is bearing the results of betraying her friends. I often wonder whether, if she would admit her error and express remorsse, the spots might not disappear. Whatever the case, she serves as a warning to those who would treat a contract lightly.
As for Umbridge, we do not yet know her ultimate fate. Just because she escaped once does not mean she may not meet the end she justly deserves.
Solitaire
Puck - Mar 12, 2006 6:07 am (#1840 of 2486)
I don't think Hermione feels the need to try to fit i anymore. This is her world, she has proven herself in it. She has always been a bit of a know-it-all.
They are not children anymore. We all change a bit as we age, so we can't expect the characters to stay the exact same from book to book. Jo does this in a realistic way.
Solitaire - Mar 12, 2006 11:02 am (#1841 of 2486)
They are not children anymore.
Exactly, Puck. These kids are in a real war, and the fact that they are kids isn't shielding them from the violence. People are dying at the hands of the enemy. By the beginning of HBP, Harry has seen two people (Sirius and Cedric) murdered and has learned of the murders of two others (Amelia Bones and Emmeline Vance) he met the previous year. He and five of his friends have faced off with DEs in the DoM, and he has now faced Voldemort--in one form or another--on more than one occasion. This isn't DA practice or dueling club with Snape and Lockhart. Harry knows he is playing for keeps this time. Lives are at stake.
From this point on, Harry and any "kids" who fight with him are going to have to fight as adults and play by adult rules. One or more of them will probably take a life, and some of them may die in the process.
Hermione has assimilated into the magical world well, I think. She has a very strong sense of honor and integrity ... but like Harry, she has learned that when one is fighting an enemy who plays by his own rules, she may have to bend the rules in order to survive. Since that night when they jumped through the trap door and landed in the Devil's Snare--and Ron had to remind her that she was a witch and could light a fire without wood--Hermione has acquitted herself pretty well, I think.
Solitaire
LooneyLuna - Mar 12, 2006 6:21 pm (#1842 of 2486)
From this point on, Harry and any "kids" who fight with him are going to have to fight as adults and play by adult rules. - Solitaire.
Excellent point! The Order of the Phoenix also has to realize that this war is not a game. I think the Order was surprised at the violence/vehemence of the DEs during the attach at Hogwarts in HBP. I also think it was good that Hermione was wrong about Draco. She needs to trust Harry's instincts (as does Ron).
Hermione has proven herself over and over again as being an asset to Harry. I have no doubt that Hermione will be instrumental in helping Harry in book 7.
K Stahl - Mar 13, 2006 7:46 am (#1843 of 2486)
The fact that Umbridge appears to have not been held accountable is par for the course in politics. It serves to highlight the corrupt nature of the Ministry of Magic.
Stringer - Mar 30, 2006 12:28 pm (#1844 of 2486)
This is off topic, but... What Books do you wish Hermione would read and discuss..
Top 100 known Horcrux by R.A.B.
Visiting beyond the veil by Sir Black
Death of a Dark Lord by A.P.W.B. Dumbledore
Finn BV - Mar 30, 2006 12:33 pm (#1845 of 2486)
Stringer, you might like to post your idea on the thread + Book for Charity We'd Like to Read (and are willing to pay for!), which is located in the = Opinions Group Section Folder.
Jewel - Apr 23, 2006 10:08 pm (#1846 of 2486)
I believe Hermione, as well as Ron will definetly be crucial assets to Harry in book 7. Hermione is bound to be reading up over the holidays. Maybe her connection with Krum could be helpful in finding out more about horcruxes. Wasn't it said somewhere that Durmstrang is a school that deals more in the dark arts more so than Hogwarts, that put the emphasis on defense against them? Maybe Krum could send her some books on the matter.
Solitaire - Apr 24, 2006 7:28 am (#1847 of 2486)
I think Krum may actually come to see Hermione in England. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see him take refuge in Hogwarts, if some sort of coup happens on the Continent. He will certainly be aware of Karkaroff's death, and since Durmstrang does study the Dark Arts, I could see it being seized as a base of operations for Voldemort's forces. If Krum actually does love Hermione, he may also fear for her safety and show up to help her in some way. We know she had corresponded with him at some point during her fifth year. What about her sixth? The problem with actively seeking his help with Horcruxes is that he is not stupid ... I think he would begin to put 2 and 2 together and figure out what Harry & Co. are up to. The more people who know about the Horcruxes, the more vulnerable the information is to being disclosed to the wrong people. Dumbledore seemed to sanction Ron and Hermione knowing, but he didn't suggest telling anyone else.
Solitaire
Holly T. - Apr 24, 2006 7:47 am (#1848 of 2486)
Shouldn't Krum be out of school by now, though? So what would it matter if the DE's take over Durmstrang?
I shouldn't be trying to think today, sleep deprived.
Die Zimtzicke - Apr 24, 2006 11:00 am (#1849 of 2486)
If Krum has been trying to build up support against Voldemort in Europe, and by extension Dumbledore, and Dumbledore is now dead, I think he will have to leave Eastern Europe, and could well come back to see Hermione.
Choices - Apr 24, 2006 4:44 pm (#1850 of 2486)
Have there been hints that Krum is building up support against Voldemort in Europe? I thought he only had time for school and Quidditch and the TriWizard Tournament. He never struck me as a political sort.
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virginiaelizabeth - Apr 24, 2006 4:57 pm (#1851 of 2486)
I don't think Krum is going to come back as evil. If he does show up again, then it will be to help the good side not plot against them. Hermione is very good at reading people, and I don't think she'd be wrong about Krum.
Die Zimtzicke - Apr 24, 2006 5:42 pm (#1852 of 2486)
I don't know if Krum has been trying to work for the good side or not, but I think Dumbledore's whole speech about friendship meant something, and so did his friendship with Hermione. After what happened to him because of Voldemort, Krum certainly can't be a fan of Voldemort. It just would make sense to me.
Besides, Hermione couldn't have been writing huge, long letters to him about Quidditch, and he would have been out of school after GoF, so it's probably not just about school happenings, either. What else would she be writing reams of parchment to him about?
haymoni - Apr 25, 2006 6:15 am (#1853 of 2486)
I figured she was telling him what was going on at Hogwarts and he was telling her about what he was noticing as he traveled around with his Quidditch team.
The One - Apr 25, 2006 7:45 am (#1854 of 2486)
Rember that the owls was interecpted. Hermione would not write anything in the letters that could be used by the Ministry against Harr/DD or by Voldemort.
haymoni - Apr 25, 2006 9:33 am (#1855 of 2486)
Hermione is smart enough to use some code words like Harry does.
Movie Krum is an idiot, but Book Krum seemed pretty smart to me.
Solitaire - Apr 25, 2006 10:48 am (#1856 of 2486)
Yes, Holly, Krum would be out of school by now. Depending on where he is and what he is doing now, such a takeover could affect him or not. I suspect that a number of "good guys" who are no longer at Hogwarts and do not have kids there would still be scared enough to flee the country if Hogwarts were captured. In fact, I can see Dumbledore's death being a strong enough catalyst to propel some right out of the country.
As things grow worse in Britain, I would not be surprised to see Krum (assuming he is a good guy) come to check on Hermione. I can also see him becoming a casualty in an effort to rescue her from Voldy's clutches. Just idle speculation ...
Solitaire
Jewel - Apr 30, 2006 11:15 am (#1857 of 2486)
I'm almost sure, but not positive, that I saw in an interview with J.K. that she said we would see Krum in book 7. And since he wasn't especially friendly with Harry or Ron, I'm assuming he would mostly be in connect with Hermione. That is unless he has gone over to the dark side? Has anyone else seen that interview, or am I becoming senile?
Chemyst - Apr 30, 2006 11:50 am (#1858 of 2486)
Jewel, you are not senile.
Will we be seeing Krum again any time soon? JK Rowling replies -> You will see Krum again, though not soon.
The full quote is from the World Book Day Chat, March 4, 2004
Tom Marvolo Riddleton - Apr 30, 2006 5:42 pm (#1859 of 2486)
I think that Krum's reappearance in the seventh book will become a great problem for Hermione. She will have to choose whether or not she will spend her life with Ron or Krum. This is the only explanation I can come up with for Jo not having set up Hermione and Ron yet. Hermione seems to be a relationship expert, or so it would seem from her explanation of tact to Harry in OoTP and her guiding Ginny when it comes to Ginny's love for Harry. It would logically follow that if she loved Ron, she would be with him by now. But perhaps she just hasn't chosen who she wants to be with.
frogface - May 1, 2006 5:42 am (#1860 of 2486)
I think if Krum turns up it will be the catalyst that finally drives Ron to openly declaring his feelings for Hermione. Something he's been putting off for way too long.
journeymom - May 1, 2006 8:56 am (#1861 of 2486)
If that's so, frogface, I really look forward to that scene. Sounds fun!
Choices - May 1, 2006 11:11 am (#1862 of 2486)
Hermione - here is a piece of free advice - if Viktor can't even pronounce your name, he's probably not for you. LOL
Jewel - May 1, 2006 8:23 pm (#1863 of 2486)
I love the way you put that Choices, people mispronounce my name all the time.
Anyway, back to Hermione. I really think that she has already made her mind up as far as Krum is concerned. I really think she has possibly explained that all they can be is friends and he accepted that (hopefully). Maybe now he can be helpful to his friend without Hermione having to reveal why it is she wants to learn about horcruxes. Maybe Krum is willing to do that for her without asking too many questions of her because he doesn't want to lose her completely.
Die Zimtzicke - May 2, 2006 9:11 am (#1864 of 2486)
Hey, cut Viktor some slack...how many fans pronounced it weird? It's an unusual name. And not everyone is a native English speaker. Here in the midwestern USA we haven't used proper English for years. LOL!
Matilda the Pygmy Puff - May 2, 2006 12:28 pm (#1865 of 2486)
Wow, it's good to be back. I haven't posted in ages.
I agree with Frogface. I think Krum will be a catalyst for Ron and Hermione to get together. I could see Hermione telling Krum that she likes Ron, which is why she can't see Krum anymore and would just be friends. Then, Krum could bring it up in casual conversation that he thought they were together already cause Hermione talks about how much she likes him, and Ron asking her out because he knows she likes him.
virginiaelizabeth - May 2, 2006 2:52 pm (#1866 of 2486)
Hey, cut Viktor some slack...how many fans pronounced it weird? It's an unusual name. And not everyone is a native English speaker. Here in the midwestern USA we haven't used proper English for years. LOL! -Die Zimtzicke
Welll said!! I think we might be worse down here in the south!!
Die Zimtzicke - May 2, 2006 3:40 pm (#1867 of 2486)
I love Matilda's post.
You know, we do possibly have to acknowledge that considering Hermione knows how clueless Ron is with girls, she probably could have given him more of a hint that she really liked him than sending a flock of canaries at him. Did she really expect RON of all people to know how she felt?
journeymom - May 2, 2006 3:51 pm (#1868 of 2486)
I have a theory. I've never read Jane Austen's Emma. I vaguely remember the movie. Didn't Emma have a good old time fixing everybody else's love lives? But then she failed miserably with her own, or something to that effect. Perhaps Hermione can be forgiven for having clear sight where others relationships are concerned, but has little insight into her own.
I called her 'Her me own' for a while, then "Her me own ee', up through CoS.
Solitaire - May 2, 2006 4:20 pm (#1869 of 2486)
I think Krum will die saving Hermione's life, because I think he may really love her. Just a guess ...
haymoni - May 3, 2006 6:40 am (#1870 of 2486)
Hubby calls her "Her-moan-ee" - sends our daughter over the edge every time!
virginiaelizabeth - May 3, 2006 3:38 pm (#1871 of 2486)
I didn't pronounce anything right when at first because the first time I read HP, my teacher read it to me and she pronounced everything wrong so I used to say Her-me-onn.
Chemyst - May 4, 2006 3:15 am (#1872 of 2486)
I think Krum will die saving Hermione's life, because I think he may really love her. Just a guess ... ~ Solitaire
I had not considered that before, but now that you mention it, your idea fits very comfortably into his story arc.
It could play out in several different ways too, depending upon whether JKR would want to emphasize the love or emphasize the danger. One speculation: Sports Hero becomes War Hero when he dies saving silly distressed damsel — and more bad press for Hermione as a lot of purebloods would rather blame her than Voldemort for Krum's death.
Catherine - May 4, 2006 7:32 am (#1873 of 2486)
One speculation: Sports Hero becomes War Hero when he dies saving silly distressed damsel — and more bad press for Hermione as a lot of purebloods would rather blame her than Voldemort for Krum's death. --Chemyst
You know, I have always suspected that Krum will die heroically. His performance at the Quidditch World Cup--where he caught the Snitch but lost the match--(and earned praise from Hermione for his bravery) seems to fit Chemyst's scenario well.
I would also not be suprised to see Hermione get more bad press. Some Forum members still like to blame her for Marietta's misfortune, for example. I believe that Hermione's Muggle-born status, her magical talents, her closeness with a "blood traitor" family, and her loyalty to Harry will make her a vulnerable target in the seventh novel.
I do not believe that Hermione should be seen as "the bad guy" for Marietta's betrayal of the DA and the subsequent purple pimples, although I am hoping that Marietta tries some of Fred and George's magical cream that erased Hermione's black eye, as I think it might work.
haymoni - May 4, 2006 7:47 am (#1874 of 2486)
JKR does have a bit of a wicked streak in her.
I don't think she has any problems continuing Marietta's punishment.
It just makes Hermione "a little scary sometimes."
Soul Mate for Sirius - May 4, 2006 9:05 am (#1875 of 2486)
I couldn't agree more haymoni. I think also that Marietta's snitching was more to Hermione then just getting them in trouble, it was a major breech of their trust. It seems to me that loyatly is everything to our three-some, and that Hermione would take great offence to someone betraying her trust, and therefore feel that the punishment was more then warranted.
(I also think that if even Madame Pomfrey couldn't remove the marks, the twins bruise cream won't do much either! Way to go Hermione!! )
-Jenn
Puck - May 6, 2006 7:03 pm (#1876 of 2486)
Agreed! Seriously, Marietta was in her 6th year. She had signed an agreement. Hadn't she learned by then you shouldn't betray a witch? She definately knows it now!
Hedwig - May 6, 2006 9:33 pm (#1877 of 2486)
I agree with you haymoni. A lot of things that Hermione does could be scary if she put her mind to it. The whole thing with the canaries, was brilliant but also kind of scary with how she used them. I wouldn't be surprised if Hermione does something extremely scary to others like she did to Marietta. Hermione seems to have a slight sadistic streak to her, especially when she likes to watch Ron and Harry fight to do their homework.
Puck - May 7, 2006 5:34 am (#1878 of 2486)
Well, I think she likes to see them struggle with homework when they don't pay attention in class, or put off doing it until the last minute. More smug satisfaction than sadistic in that case. I think I'd lean more towards the term "vindictive".
I do agree that she may yet show the DE her scary side. Interesting that she has no inclination to become an Auror. I wonder if she scares herself sometimes. Think of Bruce Banner saying, "Don't make me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry."
Soul Mate for Sirius - May 8, 2006 8:47 am (#1879 of 2486)
Puck, I agree with you that Hermione has yet to show the DE her bad side. On the other hand, I think that her lack of intrest in becoming an Auror may be because she seems to prefer doing things that solve problems using logic and her knowledge of magic rather than something as dangerous as an Auror. Not that she shys away from danger, but Harry has always been the one who went looking for it. Hermione has always been there for the guys with magical remedies to their problems or reseach into their latest adventure. I think she may just prefer that kind of "behind the scenes" work. (I do hope that made sense, I may have rambled on a bit too much there! )
-Jenn
Rea - May 8, 2006 10:07 am (#1880 of 2486)
I agree with you, SMfS, but I think that Hermione is also very devoted to her cause, SPEW, so we should consider that SPEW has not a great success, could be more important promoting alone House Elves' welfare than being the Nth auror. Just my opinion... I also think that promoting helves rights could be risky... She wouldn't be loved at all by a lot of rich and old families. Activists are often an easy target, in fiction as in reality. Maybe her cause needs less wand-work than Tonks' job, but I wouldn't dismiss so easily the danger ;-)
Solitaire - May 8, 2006 6:37 pm (#1881 of 2486)
Soul Mate, I agree that Hermione is probably happier being the brains than the brawn in any operation. I don't think she likes pursuing danger for its own sake ... although she will brave it if necessary to help someone she loves.
Solitaire
Soul Mate for Sirius - May 17, 2006 11:45 am (#1882 of 2486)
Rea and Solitare, I have to agree with both your points.
Activists are often an easy target, in fiction as in reality. Maybe her cause needs less wand-work than Tonks' job, but I wouldn't dismiss so easily the danger ;-)-Rea
Rea, I would never dream of dismissing the danger of SPEW But, it does seem to fit into my point about Hermione not actively looking for danger, but not shying away from it if it finds her either. As an activist, she's not really looking for danger then way an Auror would. But, she will be a target for danger to find her. And if/when it does, I know she'll be more then a match for it!!
Solitaire, I agree that if someone she loves is in danger, she will be brave. I think the end of OotP is a great example. When Harry has the vision of Sirius being tortured, he is all set to run off looking for him (and LV) right away. Hermione wants to take the more rational approach of checking in at 12GP first to make sure Sirius isn't still there. (She doesn't want to go looking for danger if it's not there! Certainly showing up in the DoM if the dream wasn't real proved to be dangerous) But, once Kreacher tells them Sirius is gone and they believe him to be in real trouble, she is more then willing to go running of to London with Harry and Ron to save him. (Now that someone she loves is in danger, she's willing to face it to save them!!)
-Jenn
Pinky Prime - Ju n 8, 2006 10:04 pm (#1883 of 2486)
3 of the 4 house elves mentioned in the HP series have connections to Horcruxes. A SPEW lead revolt might indeed be dangerous. Hopefully, Hermione will find a way to rally them against LV. Harry will certainly need the help. Look at the fountain of magical bretheren and her knowledge of Goblin rebellions. She certainly has the brains to figure out a strategy. A real brain rather than spell challenge.
Puck - Ju n 9, 2006 5:55 am (#1884 of 2486)
I hope Hermione decides to concentrate on decent working coditions and proper treatment of elves. She could work at the Ministry as the "anti-Umbridge"!
TomProffitt - Ju n 9, 2006 11:46 am (#1885 of 2486)
Hermione is not a leader, I don't think she would fare well at the Ministry. She has the courage of her convictions, she's brilliant, but she lacks that spark of personality to bring others along with her. I also think she lacks the diplomatic skills to survive in a bureaucracy. Her inability to enlist the enthusiasm of her two best friends in SPEW may be an indication that she doesn't have that je ne sais quoi needed to actually lead a revolution.
I think she can succeed where ever she chooses to go, but I doubt the Ministry is a good fit for her.
Catherine - Ju n 10, 2006 6:42 am (#1886 of 2486)
I think Hermione would be brilliant at the Ministry studying things in the Department of Mysteries. I also think she be be an excellent advisor, similar to a "Cabinet" position.
I still imagine Hermione being a Healer, though.
Puck - Ju n 11, 2006 6:18 am (#1887 of 2486)
Really? I never thought of her as a healer. More of a teacher or administrator.
Solitaire - Ju n 11, 2006 9:23 am (#1888 of 2486)
You know, Catherine, I've always thought Hermione would be good in the Ministry, as well. She is not quite as bound-to-the-rules as she was in the beginning--certainly nothing like Percy--but she does believe in following proper protocol as far as possible.
I've also thought she would make a wonderful Headmistress at Hogwarts at some point in the future. She is talented, intelligent, organized, extremely knowledgeable about the history of Hogwarts, stays informed on current events in both the Wizarding and Muggle worlds, is a pretty fair judge of character, and has a phenomenal memory, all of which would surely serve a Head well. On top of this, she is committed to bringing about harmony and respect among all members of the magical world. I think she would be aces!
Solitaire
TomProffitt - Ju n 11, 2006 9:24 am (#1889 of 2486)
Really? I never thought of her as a healer. More of a teacher or administrator. --- Puck
I can see Hermione as a teacher, but I can't imagine her putting up with all of the fools in a bureaucracy.
The One - Ju n 21, 2006 3:21 pm (#1890 of 2486)
Hermione is not a leader, I don't think she would fare well at the Ministry. She has the courage of her convictions, she's brilliant, but she lacks that spark of personality to bring others along with her.
She did collect quite a number of people in the DA.
She did lead the Polyjuice project.
She did coach Harry in GoF.
While we never see Hermione exell as a leader, this example shows me that we do not really have reason to dismiss her as a leader.
She is more than a booworm!
Pamzter - Ju n 21, 2006 5:02 pm (#1891 of 2486)
When and how do you think Hermione's Arithmancy is going to come in to play? The point keeps getting made that she's taking the class, that she loves it, that she does well in it. To what end?
PS: The One - You're little typo keeps my mind picturing her shouting "Boo!" at little worms and them scurrying away.
Catherine - Ju n 21, 2006 5:11 pm (#1892 of 2486)
The One, I agree that Hermione is more than an Insufferable Know-It-All. She is wise beyond her years, that one.
Pamzter, I may be wrong, but I think that The One's native tongue is not English, so a typo may occur once in a while. Maybe JKR should consider "booworms" as really scary flobberworms! You might've made a teensy typo yourself!
Chemyst - Ju n 22, 2006 5:27 pm (#1893 of 2486)
When and how do you think Hermione's Arithmancy is going to come in to play? The point keeps getting made that she's taking the class, that she loves it, that she does well in it. To what end? ~ Pamzter
Funny, but I've generally considered taking arithmancy to be more of a personality description thing— works with numbers = brainy
Her runes classes, on the other hand, might come in handy. With Dumbledore gone, who might know what is written around the rim of the Pensieve? Instructions?
We know her O.W.L.s. exams involved having to translate ancient runes into English.
Still, you could be right about arithmancy figuring in to the Book 7 plot. But since arithmancy is a Chaldean and Greek method of divination by numbers, and since there are so many other options if divination is called for (dreams, tea leaves, crystal balls, Firenze, prophesies, astrology, dumb luck etc.) and since JKR openly admits she doesn't like maths, I never thought arithmancy would be as important as Hermione's knowledge of runes.
Steve Newton - Ju n 22, 2006 8:22 pm (#1894 of 2486)
I've been more interested in her Ancient Runes classes. It seems like we have a story only because of ancient magic.
Soul Search - Ju n 23, 2006 7:02 am (#1895 of 2486)
Could it be that Harry will find something related to Lily's ancient magic at Godric's Hollow, and Hermione will help him figure it out?
Die Zimtzicke - Ju n 23, 2006 5:18 pm (#1896 of 2486)
Either Hermione or Luna can help him with Runes. Luna seems to be quite good at it, if she can work puzzles using runes for fun. It would be even better in my opinion if Hermione and Luna worked together more to help Harry. Luna really is the anti-Hermione, after all, and Harry needs to be able to see different sides of things.
Tom Marvolo Riddleton - Ju n 30, 2006 8:26 pm (#1897 of 2486)
One thing I absolutely cannot grasp about Hermione Granger is how she could possibly get only an "Exceeds Expectations" in DADA on her O.W.L. How it is that someone as intelligent, hard-working, and motivated as her can fail to achieve the highest marks wasn't what bothered me though; I just felt that after having been in the DA that she could not have possibly been better prepared to get an "Outstanding." Perhaps I'm over thinking this, but is this possibly a sign for the future, when DADA counts not just as a class but an actual practice?
Mediwitch - Ju n 30, 2006 8:55 pm (#1898 of 2486)
Well, Hermione does tend to fall apart during stressful situations, bless her heart. Look at PS/SS, when she realized they were in Devil's Snare and knew it didn't like heat and light; Ron had to tell her to light a fire, and she replied, "there's no wood" (to which Ron responded with one of my very favorite lines, "Are you a witch or not?" ). Another example of this was the DADA final in POA, when Hermione burst out of the boggart's trunk screaming because her boggart was McGonagall saying Hermione had failed everything!
I don't know if her relatively lower mark is forshadowing or not, but I do think Hermione sometimes panicks in a crisis (and to her, OWLS were a crisis)!
Solitaire - Ju n 30, 2006 9:56 pm (#1899 of 2486)
Remember what Harry said about Hermione in PS/SS: Flying was "something you couldn't learn by heart out of a book--not that she hadn't tried." Hermione may have the spells memorized, but her physical reflexes may not always be as quick as Harry's--and it would seem that being fast on the draw is important in DADA. Besides, Harry has really had more on-the-job experience than just about anyone. JM2K ...
Solitaire
The One - Ju l 1, 2006 2:53 am (#1900 of 2486)
Well, classes in DADA was next to useless in year 1, 2 and 5. Even if DADA was cool it was not really relastic to expect a student arranging a handfull secret meetings to make up for lack of proper classes? I imagine Harry to be the only student at all to get an O in DADA that year.
I do not expect that to mean that she is useless in battle at all.
1. because the DOM battle suggest that she is not 2. Because even if she was better in theory than on the battle field, exams are very much a theoretical setting, and it would not prevent her from getting top marks.
I don't think Krum is going to come back as evil. If he does show up again, then it will be to help the good side not plot against them. Hermione is very good at reading people, and I don't think she'd be wrong about Krum.
Die Zimtzicke - Apr 24, 2006 5:42 pm (#1852 of 2486)
I don't know if Krum has been trying to work for the good side or not, but I think Dumbledore's whole speech about friendship meant something, and so did his friendship with Hermione. After what happened to him because of Voldemort, Krum certainly can't be a fan of Voldemort. It just would make sense to me.
Besides, Hermione couldn't have been writing huge, long letters to him about Quidditch, and he would have been out of school after GoF, so it's probably not just about school happenings, either. What else would she be writing reams of parchment to him about?
haymoni - Apr 25, 2006 6:15 am (#1853 of 2486)
I figured she was telling him what was going on at Hogwarts and he was telling her about what he was noticing as he traveled around with his Quidditch team.
The One - Apr 25, 2006 7:45 am (#1854 of 2486)
Rember that the owls was interecpted. Hermione would not write anything in the letters that could be used by the Ministry against Harr/DD or by Voldemort.
haymoni - Apr 25, 2006 9:33 am (#1855 of 2486)
Hermione is smart enough to use some code words like Harry does.
Movie Krum is an idiot, but Book Krum seemed pretty smart to me.
Solitaire - Apr 25, 2006 10:48 am (#1856 of 2486)
Yes, Holly, Krum would be out of school by now. Depending on where he is and what he is doing now, such a takeover could affect him or not. I suspect that a number of "good guys" who are no longer at Hogwarts and do not have kids there would still be scared enough to flee the country if Hogwarts were captured. In fact, I can see Dumbledore's death being a strong enough catalyst to propel some right out of the country.
As things grow worse in Britain, I would not be surprised to see Krum (assuming he is a good guy) come to check on Hermione. I can also see him becoming a casualty in an effort to rescue her from Voldy's clutches. Just idle speculation ...
Solitaire
Jewel - Apr 30, 2006 11:15 am (#1857 of 2486)
I'm almost sure, but not positive, that I saw in an interview with J.K. that she said we would see Krum in book 7. And since he wasn't especially friendly with Harry or Ron, I'm assuming he would mostly be in connect with Hermione. That is unless he has gone over to the dark side? Has anyone else seen that interview, or am I becoming senile?
Chemyst - Apr 30, 2006 11:50 am (#1858 of 2486)
Jewel, you are not senile.
Will we be seeing Krum again any time soon? JK Rowling replies -> You will see Krum again, though not soon.
The full quote is from the World Book Day Chat, March 4, 2004
Tom Marvolo Riddleton - Apr 30, 2006 5:42 pm (#1859 of 2486)
I think that Krum's reappearance in the seventh book will become a great problem for Hermione. She will have to choose whether or not she will spend her life with Ron or Krum. This is the only explanation I can come up with for Jo not having set up Hermione and Ron yet. Hermione seems to be a relationship expert, or so it would seem from her explanation of tact to Harry in OoTP and her guiding Ginny when it comes to Ginny's love for Harry. It would logically follow that if she loved Ron, she would be with him by now. But perhaps she just hasn't chosen who she wants to be with.
frogface - May 1, 2006 5:42 am (#1860 of 2486)
I think if Krum turns up it will be the catalyst that finally drives Ron to openly declaring his feelings for Hermione. Something he's been putting off for way too long.
journeymom - May 1, 2006 8:56 am (#1861 of 2486)
If that's so, frogface, I really look forward to that scene. Sounds fun!
Choices - May 1, 2006 11:11 am (#1862 of 2486)
Hermione - here is a piece of free advice - if Viktor can't even pronounce your name, he's probably not for you. LOL
Jewel - May 1, 2006 8:23 pm (#1863 of 2486)
I love the way you put that Choices, people mispronounce my name all the time.
Anyway, back to Hermione. I really think that she has already made her mind up as far as Krum is concerned. I really think she has possibly explained that all they can be is friends and he accepted that (hopefully). Maybe now he can be helpful to his friend without Hermione having to reveal why it is she wants to learn about horcruxes. Maybe Krum is willing to do that for her without asking too many questions of her because he doesn't want to lose her completely.
Die Zimtzicke - May 2, 2006 9:11 am (#1864 of 2486)
Hey, cut Viktor some slack...how many fans pronounced it weird? It's an unusual name. And not everyone is a native English speaker. Here in the midwestern USA we haven't used proper English for years. LOL!
Matilda the Pygmy Puff - May 2, 2006 12:28 pm (#1865 of 2486)
Wow, it's good to be back. I haven't posted in ages.
I agree with Frogface. I think Krum will be a catalyst for Ron and Hermione to get together. I could see Hermione telling Krum that she likes Ron, which is why she can't see Krum anymore and would just be friends. Then, Krum could bring it up in casual conversation that he thought they were together already cause Hermione talks about how much she likes him, and Ron asking her out because he knows she likes him.
virginiaelizabeth - May 2, 2006 2:52 pm (#1866 of 2486)
Hey, cut Viktor some slack...how many fans pronounced it weird? It's an unusual name. And not everyone is a native English speaker. Here in the midwestern USA we haven't used proper English for years. LOL! -Die Zimtzicke
Welll said!! I think we might be worse down here in the south!!
Die Zimtzicke - May 2, 2006 3:40 pm (#1867 of 2486)
I love Matilda's post.
You know, we do possibly have to acknowledge that considering Hermione knows how clueless Ron is with girls, she probably could have given him more of a hint that she really liked him than sending a flock of canaries at him. Did she really expect RON of all people to know how she felt?
journeymom - May 2, 2006 3:51 pm (#1868 of 2486)
I have a theory. I've never read Jane Austen's Emma. I vaguely remember the movie. Didn't Emma have a good old time fixing everybody else's love lives? But then she failed miserably with her own, or something to that effect. Perhaps Hermione can be forgiven for having clear sight where others relationships are concerned, but has little insight into her own.
I called her 'Her me own' for a while, then "Her me own ee', up through CoS.
Solitaire - May 2, 2006 4:20 pm (#1869 of 2486)
I think Krum will die saving Hermione's life, because I think he may really love her. Just a guess ...
haymoni - May 3, 2006 6:40 am (#1870 of 2486)
Hubby calls her "Her-moan-ee" - sends our daughter over the edge every time!
virginiaelizabeth - May 3, 2006 3:38 pm (#1871 of 2486)
I didn't pronounce anything right when at first because the first time I read HP, my teacher read it to me and she pronounced everything wrong so I used to say Her-me-onn.
Chemyst - May 4, 2006 3:15 am (#1872 of 2486)
I think Krum will die saving Hermione's life, because I think he may really love her. Just a guess ... ~ Solitaire
I had not considered that before, but now that you mention it, your idea fits very comfortably into his story arc.
It could play out in several different ways too, depending upon whether JKR would want to emphasize the love or emphasize the danger. One speculation: Sports Hero becomes War Hero when he dies saving silly distressed damsel — and more bad press for Hermione as a lot of purebloods would rather blame her than Voldemort for Krum's death.
Catherine - May 4, 2006 7:32 am (#1873 of 2486)
One speculation: Sports Hero becomes War Hero when he dies saving silly distressed damsel — and more bad press for Hermione as a lot of purebloods would rather blame her than Voldemort for Krum's death. --Chemyst
You know, I have always suspected that Krum will die heroically. His performance at the Quidditch World Cup--where he caught the Snitch but lost the match--(and earned praise from Hermione for his bravery) seems to fit Chemyst's scenario well.
I would also not be suprised to see Hermione get more bad press. Some Forum members still like to blame her for Marietta's misfortune, for example. I believe that Hermione's Muggle-born status, her magical talents, her closeness with a "blood traitor" family, and her loyalty to Harry will make her a vulnerable target in the seventh novel.
I do not believe that Hermione should be seen as "the bad guy" for Marietta's betrayal of the DA and the subsequent purple pimples, although I am hoping that Marietta tries some of Fred and George's magical cream that erased Hermione's black eye, as I think it might work.
haymoni - May 4, 2006 7:47 am (#1874 of 2486)
JKR does have a bit of a wicked streak in her.
I don't think she has any problems continuing Marietta's punishment.
It just makes Hermione "a little scary sometimes."
Soul Mate for Sirius - May 4, 2006 9:05 am (#1875 of 2486)
I couldn't agree more haymoni. I think also that Marietta's snitching was more to Hermione then just getting them in trouble, it was a major breech of their trust. It seems to me that loyatly is everything to our three-some, and that Hermione would take great offence to someone betraying her trust, and therefore feel that the punishment was more then warranted.
(I also think that if even Madame Pomfrey couldn't remove the marks, the twins bruise cream won't do much either! Way to go Hermione!! )
-Jenn
Puck - May 6, 2006 7:03 pm (#1876 of 2486)
Agreed! Seriously, Marietta was in her 6th year. She had signed an agreement. Hadn't she learned by then you shouldn't betray a witch? She definately knows it now!
Hedwig - May 6, 2006 9:33 pm (#1877 of 2486)
I agree with you haymoni. A lot of things that Hermione does could be scary if she put her mind to it. The whole thing with the canaries, was brilliant but also kind of scary with how she used them. I wouldn't be surprised if Hermione does something extremely scary to others like she did to Marietta. Hermione seems to have a slight sadistic streak to her, especially when she likes to watch Ron and Harry fight to do their homework.
Puck - May 7, 2006 5:34 am (#1878 of 2486)
Well, I think she likes to see them struggle with homework when they don't pay attention in class, or put off doing it until the last minute. More smug satisfaction than sadistic in that case. I think I'd lean more towards the term "vindictive".
I do agree that she may yet show the DE her scary side. Interesting that she has no inclination to become an Auror. I wonder if she scares herself sometimes. Think of Bruce Banner saying, "Don't make me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry."
Soul Mate for Sirius - May 8, 2006 8:47 am (#1879 of 2486)
Puck, I agree with you that Hermione has yet to show the DE her bad side. On the other hand, I think that her lack of intrest in becoming an Auror may be because she seems to prefer doing things that solve problems using logic and her knowledge of magic rather than something as dangerous as an Auror. Not that she shys away from danger, but Harry has always been the one who went looking for it. Hermione has always been there for the guys with magical remedies to their problems or reseach into their latest adventure. I think she may just prefer that kind of "behind the scenes" work. (I do hope that made sense, I may have rambled on a bit too much there! )
-Jenn
Rea - May 8, 2006 10:07 am (#1880 of 2486)
I agree with you, SMfS, but I think that Hermione is also very devoted to her cause, SPEW, so we should consider that SPEW has not a great success, could be more important promoting alone House Elves' welfare than being the Nth auror. Just my opinion... I also think that promoting helves rights could be risky... She wouldn't be loved at all by a lot of rich and old families. Activists are often an easy target, in fiction as in reality. Maybe her cause needs less wand-work than Tonks' job, but I wouldn't dismiss so easily the danger ;-)
Solitaire - May 8, 2006 6:37 pm (#1881 of 2486)
Soul Mate, I agree that Hermione is probably happier being the brains than the brawn in any operation. I don't think she likes pursuing danger for its own sake ... although she will brave it if necessary to help someone she loves.
Solitaire
Soul Mate for Sirius - May 17, 2006 11:45 am (#1882 of 2486)
Rea and Solitare, I have to agree with both your points.
Activists are often an easy target, in fiction as in reality. Maybe her cause needs less wand-work than Tonks' job, but I wouldn't dismiss so easily the danger ;-)-Rea
Rea, I would never dream of dismissing the danger of SPEW But, it does seem to fit into my point about Hermione not actively looking for danger, but not shying away from it if it finds her either. As an activist, she's not really looking for danger then way an Auror would. But, she will be a target for danger to find her. And if/when it does, I know she'll be more then a match for it!!
Solitaire, I agree that if someone she loves is in danger, she will be brave. I think the end of OotP is a great example. When Harry has the vision of Sirius being tortured, he is all set to run off looking for him (and LV) right away. Hermione wants to take the more rational approach of checking in at 12GP first to make sure Sirius isn't still there. (She doesn't want to go looking for danger if it's not there! Certainly showing up in the DoM if the dream wasn't real proved to be dangerous) But, once Kreacher tells them Sirius is gone and they believe him to be in real trouble, she is more then willing to go running of to London with Harry and Ron to save him. (Now that someone she loves is in danger, she's willing to face it to save them!!)
-Jenn
Pinky Prime - Ju n 8, 2006 10:04 pm (#1883 of 2486)
3 of the 4 house elves mentioned in the HP series have connections to Horcruxes. A SPEW lead revolt might indeed be dangerous. Hopefully, Hermione will find a way to rally them against LV. Harry will certainly need the help. Look at the fountain of magical bretheren and her knowledge of Goblin rebellions. She certainly has the brains to figure out a strategy. A real brain rather than spell challenge.
Puck - Ju n 9, 2006 5:55 am (#1884 of 2486)
I hope Hermione decides to concentrate on decent working coditions and proper treatment of elves. She could work at the Ministry as the "anti-Umbridge"!
TomProffitt - Ju n 9, 2006 11:46 am (#1885 of 2486)
Hermione is not a leader, I don't think she would fare well at the Ministry. She has the courage of her convictions, she's brilliant, but she lacks that spark of personality to bring others along with her. I also think she lacks the diplomatic skills to survive in a bureaucracy. Her inability to enlist the enthusiasm of her two best friends in SPEW may be an indication that she doesn't have that je ne sais quoi needed to actually lead a revolution.
I think she can succeed where ever she chooses to go, but I doubt the Ministry is a good fit for her.
Catherine - Ju n 10, 2006 6:42 am (#1886 of 2486)
I think Hermione would be brilliant at the Ministry studying things in the Department of Mysteries. I also think she be be an excellent advisor, similar to a "Cabinet" position.
I still imagine Hermione being a Healer, though.
Puck - Ju n 11, 2006 6:18 am (#1887 of 2486)
Really? I never thought of her as a healer. More of a teacher or administrator.
Solitaire - Ju n 11, 2006 9:23 am (#1888 of 2486)
You know, Catherine, I've always thought Hermione would be good in the Ministry, as well. She is not quite as bound-to-the-rules as she was in the beginning--certainly nothing like Percy--but she does believe in following proper protocol as far as possible.
I've also thought she would make a wonderful Headmistress at Hogwarts at some point in the future. She is talented, intelligent, organized, extremely knowledgeable about the history of Hogwarts, stays informed on current events in both the Wizarding and Muggle worlds, is a pretty fair judge of character, and has a phenomenal memory, all of which would surely serve a Head well. On top of this, she is committed to bringing about harmony and respect among all members of the magical world. I think she would be aces!
Solitaire
TomProffitt - Ju n 11, 2006 9:24 am (#1889 of 2486)
Really? I never thought of her as a healer. More of a teacher or administrator. --- Puck
I can see Hermione as a teacher, but I can't imagine her putting up with all of the fools in a bureaucracy.
The One - Ju n 21, 2006 3:21 pm (#1890 of 2486)
Hermione is not a leader, I don't think she would fare well at the Ministry. She has the courage of her convictions, she's brilliant, but she lacks that spark of personality to bring others along with her.
She did collect quite a number of people in the DA.
She did lead the Polyjuice project.
She did coach Harry in GoF.
While we never see Hermione exell as a leader, this example shows me that we do not really have reason to dismiss her as a leader.
She is more than a booworm!
Pamzter - Ju n 21, 2006 5:02 pm (#1891 of 2486)
When and how do you think Hermione's Arithmancy is going to come in to play? The point keeps getting made that she's taking the class, that she loves it, that she does well in it. To what end?
PS: The One - You're little typo keeps my mind picturing her shouting "Boo!" at little worms and them scurrying away.
Catherine - Ju n 21, 2006 5:11 pm (#1892 of 2486)
The One, I agree that Hermione is more than an Insufferable Know-It-All. She is wise beyond her years, that one.
Pamzter, I may be wrong, but I think that The One's native tongue is not English, so a typo may occur once in a while. Maybe JKR should consider "booworms" as really scary flobberworms! You might've made a teensy typo yourself!
Chemyst - Ju n 22, 2006 5:27 pm (#1893 of 2486)
When and how do you think Hermione's Arithmancy is going to come in to play? The point keeps getting made that she's taking the class, that she loves it, that she does well in it. To what end? ~ Pamzter
Funny, but I've generally considered taking arithmancy to be more of a personality description thing— works with numbers = brainy
Her runes classes, on the other hand, might come in handy. With Dumbledore gone, who might know what is written around the rim of the Pensieve? Instructions?
We know her O.W.L.s. exams involved having to translate ancient runes into English.
Still, you could be right about arithmancy figuring in to the Book 7 plot. But since arithmancy is a Chaldean and Greek method of divination by numbers, and since there are so many other options if divination is called for (dreams, tea leaves, crystal balls, Firenze, prophesies, astrology, dumb luck etc.) and since JKR openly admits she doesn't like maths, I never thought arithmancy would be as important as Hermione's knowledge of runes.
Steve Newton - Ju n 22, 2006 8:22 pm (#1894 of 2486)
I've been more interested in her Ancient Runes classes. It seems like we have a story only because of ancient magic.
Soul Search - Ju n 23, 2006 7:02 am (#1895 of 2486)
Could it be that Harry will find something related to Lily's ancient magic at Godric's Hollow, and Hermione will help him figure it out?
Die Zimtzicke - Ju n 23, 2006 5:18 pm (#1896 of 2486)
Either Hermione or Luna can help him with Runes. Luna seems to be quite good at it, if she can work puzzles using runes for fun. It would be even better in my opinion if Hermione and Luna worked together more to help Harry. Luna really is the anti-Hermione, after all, and Harry needs to be able to see different sides of things.
Tom Marvolo Riddleton - Ju n 30, 2006 8:26 pm (#1897 of 2486)
One thing I absolutely cannot grasp about Hermione Granger is how she could possibly get only an "Exceeds Expectations" in DADA on her O.W.L. How it is that someone as intelligent, hard-working, and motivated as her can fail to achieve the highest marks wasn't what bothered me though; I just felt that after having been in the DA that she could not have possibly been better prepared to get an "Outstanding." Perhaps I'm over thinking this, but is this possibly a sign for the future, when DADA counts not just as a class but an actual practice?
Mediwitch - Ju n 30, 2006 8:55 pm (#1898 of 2486)
Well, Hermione does tend to fall apart during stressful situations, bless her heart. Look at PS/SS, when she realized they were in Devil's Snare and knew it didn't like heat and light; Ron had to tell her to light a fire, and she replied, "there's no wood" (to which Ron responded with one of my very favorite lines, "Are you a witch or not?" ). Another example of this was the DADA final in POA, when Hermione burst out of the boggart's trunk screaming because her boggart was McGonagall saying Hermione had failed everything!
I don't know if her relatively lower mark is forshadowing or not, but I do think Hermione sometimes panicks in a crisis (and to her, OWLS were a crisis)!
Solitaire - Ju n 30, 2006 9:56 pm (#1899 of 2486)
Remember what Harry said about Hermione in PS/SS: Flying was "something you couldn't learn by heart out of a book--not that she hadn't tried." Hermione may have the spells memorized, but her physical reflexes may not always be as quick as Harry's--and it would seem that being fast on the draw is important in DADA. Besides, Harry has really had more on-the-job experience than just about anyone. JM2K ...
Solitaire
The One - Ju l 1, 2006 2:53 am (#1900 of 2486)
Well, classes in DADA was next to useless in year 1, 2 and 5. Even if DADA was cool it was not really relastic to expect a student arranging a handfull secret meetings to make up for lack of proper classes? I imagine Harry to be the only student at all to get an O in DADA that year.
I do not expect that to mean that she is useless in battle at all.
1. because the DOM battle suggest that she is not 2. Because even if she was better in theory than on the battle field, exams are very much a theoretical setting, and it would not prevent her from getting top marks.
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Solitaire - Jul 1, 2006 3:48 am (#1901 of 2486)
All good points, The One. That reminds me ... I'm still very curious to know how all of the DA kids (Neville, Ernie, Dean, Susan, Anthony, Terry, Hannah, ...) fared in comparison with everyone else (who had only Umbridge for instruction) in their OWLs and NEWTs. Is anyone else?
Solitaire
Catherine - Jul 1, 2006 8:22 am (#1902 of 2486)
I assumed that Harry producing his Patronus Charm during his DADA O.W.L. was responsible for his mark of O.
The examiner may have not given the other students the opportunity to produce one because it did not occur to him that the students could do the charm. We know from Lupin in PoA that even some fully qualified wizards have difficulty with it. Harry, he knew, was supposedly able to do so, and so he got an "extra point" when he performed it.
Solitaire - Jul 1, 2006 9:38 am (#1903 of 2486)
Actually, Catherine, I kind of thought that might also be the reason.
Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 2, 2006 3:01 pm (#1904 of 2486)
I thought part if it was Jo's way of letting us know, even though Hermione is the brightest in her year, that there is something Harry is better at then her. LPO
Puck - Jul 9, 2006 5:23 am (#1905 of 2486)
I agree, LPO.
So, was she upset about not getting all Outstandings, or upset because Harry did better?
Mediwitch - Jul 9, 2006 7:53 am (#1906 of 2486)
Probably both! Hermione does admit to Harry (I think in OoP) that he is better than she is at DADA, so while it's probably not a surprise, I'm sure she is disappointed.
Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 9, 2006 8:36 am (#1907 of 2486)
Hermione does like to compare grades with everyone. It makes Harry work harder though. Look at how she responded to Harry being better at potions than she was. She saw the book as cheating. It irked her something fierce that he out did her. That really demonstrates how differently Harry and Hermione think. Harry looks for help/information all over. Hermione relies only on "Approved" sources. LPO
Puck - Jul 9, 2006 10:25 am (#1908 of 2486)
Which means while she can easily master spells and potions created by others, she's not apt to invent new ones.
Solitaire - Jul 9, 2006 11:21 am (#1909 of 2486)
In some ways, LPO, Hermione reminds me of an "oldest" child I had in class about 12 years ago. Every time I gave an assignment, she asked a million questions and wanted to know in the minutest detail exactly what was expected. She always got it right, but she lacked the originality and inventiveness of her "less perfect" younger siblings, who were willing to take risks and do things over if they bombed.
I think it is critical to know the spells and potions that are taught. But one of the things that has always been Harry's salvation in tight spots is his inventiveness. Think about it ... What experienced adult Witch or Wizard would ever use Expelliarmus! on Voldemort? Yet the use of that simple spell bought Harry vital time and enabled him to escape Voldemort's clutches.
Hermione showed some of this same inventiveness in the DoM. When she used Silencio! on a DE, she apparently saved her life and the lives of others, even though she did suffer considerable injuries. She was probably wishing she could think of some more sophisticated spells at the moment, but she used what she had, and she survived. In the WW, that seems to be the name of the game.
Hermione has "relaxed" considerably since she arrived at Hogwarts. She is far less uptight and far more willing to bend the rules, if she cannot find a way to work within them. Is this good, or is it bad? Here in the "real world," I do think rules and boundaries are important. In the Wizarding World, however, adhering strictly to the rules could cost someone his life. "Situational ethics" seem to be the rule. To someone like Hermione, who has apparently been raised to play by the rules, I can see how this could be troubling.
Solitaire
Soul Search - Jul 9, 2006 11:27 am (#1910 of 2486)
I think we have concluded that Ron and Hermnione will bring diferent types of help to Harry in the Horcrux hunt and Voldemort's defeat.
There is quite a bit of canon to suggest Hermione's contributions: knows a lot, learns taught spells quickly and does them well, has picked up on spells neither Ron nor Harry know, and has studied Ancient Runes and Arithmency.
Hermione also brings a bit of caution to the trio, perhaps too much. Harry, after all, does tend to act rashly. Hermione has shown that she, too, can act when angered though, like when she slapped Draco in PoA.
Hermione can also think things through and analyze a situation. Neither Ron nor Harry seem so inclined. Strange, since Ron is the superior chess player.
But what are Hermione's weaknesses? She is overcautious. She becomes flustered if under pressure. She isn't good on a broom, or perhaps anything athletic. She worries about rules.
Does Ron make up for any of Hermione's shortcomings?
Solitaire - Jul 9, 2006 11:40 am (#1911 of 2486)
This is why the Trio is so good together. Even though each has shortcomings in knowledge and/or abilities alone, when they function as a unit, they really are a total package. Our Trio always remind me of Ecclesiastes 4:12--"Though one may be overpowered by another, two can withstand him. And a threefold cord is not quickly broken." JM2K ...
Solitaire
Choices - Jul 9, 2006 11:45 am (#1912 of 2486)
Hermione is our sleuth - she did her research and found out about Eileen Prince. I think she will do the same for R.A.B. and discover for who or what that stands.
Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 9, 2006 11:49 am (#1913 of 2486)
I think some of Hermione's work ethic could rub off on Ron and Harry. It wouldn't hurt them a bit! I agree Solitaire, a threefold cord is very difficult to break.
One of the things I enjoyed about HBP was Hermione's difficulty with emotional issues. Like most girls she was way ahead of the boys in the first 5 books. I think she learned a lot about herself in HBP. LPO
LooneyLuna - Jul 11, 2006 6:37 pm (#1914 of 2486)
Part of Hermione's coming of age is that she is learning that she does NOT know everything, and I think that scared her. Another part is that it is one thing to do well in school, quite another to do well/survive in the real world.
I felt in HBP that Hermione spent a lot of time (off radar) second guessing herself/dealing with emotional issues, which enabled Ron to step forward. After Ron's poisoning, he only spoke in the hospital wing after he heard Hermione's voice (he croaked, "ermione". That one line spoke volumes of his love for her. I think she recognized that and began to get some of her confidence back.
As for Hermione's work ethic rubbing off on Ron and Harry - I'm sure it will and then some. When Harry becomes singularly focused - watch out Voldemort!
Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 12, 2006 9:07 am (#1915 of 2486)
LoonyLuna I agree. Hermione seemed to have really struggled with confidence. Ron struggled in OoP. I think Jo has done a good job exploring the development of each character. I think both Ron and Hermione needed a kick in the pants and Ron's near death did the trick. Harry needs them to be cooperating to face Voldemort. LPO
haymoni - Jul 14, 2006 7:03 am (#1916 of 2486)
Not to change the subject or anything, but one of the Trivia Questions gave me an idea for the "Ron Smell" that Hermione held back.
Is it possible it was that perfume with the unusual smell that Ron gave her for Christmas one year?
Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 14, 2006 1:00 pm (#1917 of 2486)
Haymoni the perfume was OoP p. 303 Scholastic Hard bound. Hermione's comment was "And that perfume is really unusual, Ron." I'm not sure if that was a positive comment. Especially since she was very happy with the book Harry had given her. It could be though. LPO
haymoni - Jul 14, 2006 1:13 pm (#1918 of 2486)
I'm guessing that she would remember that smell if it was unusual.
I could see her saying, "I smell parchment, grass and that perfume you gave me last Christmas, Ron."
Hermione would know that the 3rd smell was connected to the person you loved, so she stopped herself from saying it out loud.
I just can't think of any smell that would remind Hermione of Ron.
azi - Jul 14, 2006 2:08 pm (#1919 of 2486)
Eau de Ron isn't a very nice thought...
I like the idea, Haymoni!
I always thought that Hermione didn't particuarly like the smell, but didn't want to hurt Ron's feelings. Therefore, she tried to have a positive reaction towards him for trying to get her a nice present.
Regan of Gong - Jul 14, 2006 5:41 pm (#1920 of 2486)
NOOOOO! Don't tell everyone the answers to my trivia!!!
Choices - Jul 14, 2006 6:04 pm (#1921 of 2486)
LOL Yes, I thought Hermione was being diplomatic by saying the perfume was "unusual". Sort of like seeing a ugly baby and commenting..."Wow, now that's a baby!" You're not lying and saying it's cute, but you're not being truthful and saying it's ugly either.
haymoni - Jul 15, 2006 4:01 am (#1922 of 2486)
That epidsode of Seinfeld was on last night, Choices. "That's one snuggly baby!"
Solitaire - Jul 15, 2006 6:10 am (#1923 of 2486)
LOL Haymoni! I didn't watch it last night, but I sure remember seeing the look on Elaine's face every time she was forced to look into the crib. Kinda made me wonder ...
Die Zimtzicke - Jul 15, 2006 6:50 am (#1924 of 2486)
LOL!
I read a fan fic once where Lavender and Parvati threw that perfume out of the dorm because they said it smelled like a dead niffler, and Hermione was glad because she didn't have the nerve to do it herself.
Poor, Ron, though. He tried to please Hermione. At least it was a feminine gift.
Czarina II - Jul 15, 2006 9:34 pm (#1925 of 2486)
I don't see Hermione as being the kind of girl who wears perfume, so she probably thought the gift was unusual anyway. I know if someone gives me perfume, I say thanks but I then don't wear it.
Hermione probably thought: "Wow, so he's finally figured out I'm a girl! Too bad he hasn't realised that I don't wear perfume like Lavender and Parvati!"
Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 18, 2006 9:42 am (#1926 of 2486)
I can't think of a smell to associate with Ron. I loved the mowed grass and parchment with Hermione though. LPO
Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 1, 2006 8:09 pm (#1927 of 2486)
The Leaky Cauldron has an interesting tidbit on the reading in New York City concerning book seven and Hermione. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Finn BV - Aug 1, 2006 9:06 pm (#1928 of 2486)
The article doesn't mention that first, Hermione would probably see the trio, together doing the tasks that Harry had laid out, "unscathed and safe." Or, Jo said, she would see herself "entwined" with a certain individual "whose identity you can probably guess."
The One - Aug 2, 2006 1:11 pm (#1929 of 2486)
"whose identity you can probably guess."
Almost like "You know who"!!!
Does Hermione harbor a secret lust for Voldemort?
Or is Ron the next evil overlord?
The plot thickens, no doubt about that!
haymoni - Aug 2, 2006 1:13 pm (#1930 of 2486)
I don't want to think of Hermione "entwined" with anybody!!
I'm just not ready for that, I guess!
Finn BV - Aug 2, 2006 5:55 pm (#1931 of 2486)
I agree, I can't quite picture her "entwined." Perhaps it was just the first word that came to her head when she was asked the question.
Wizadora - Aug 3, 2006 8:31 am (#1932 of 2486)
Why not? She is 17 years old. I would think that word fitted perfectly for that age. Plus it makes me think of Ron being wrapped around her little finger, which we know he will be when he acknowledges his true feelings. Her word will be law!
Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 3, 2006 9:50 am (#1933 of 2486)
The comments on Hermione raised a line of thoughts in my mind. By the end of HBP it waas established that Ron and Hermione were going to be a couple heading into book seven.
I have a feeling that although Ron and Hermione are couple now that this will not remain so in book seven because, of how events unfold and Ron either dies or moves onto another relationship and Ron's place in Hermione's life will be taken by Viktor Krum based on previous statements given by J.K. Rowling that Viktor Krum would be seen again although not soon.
Die Zimtzicke - Aug 3, 2006 10:07 am (#1934 of 2486)
I would have loved that, but after yesterday, I have very little hope left. As Jo said, "Come on!"
haymoni - Aug 3, 2006 10:19 am (#1935 of 2486)
We saw Victor in GOF and Hermione was writing to him in OotP.
I keep forgetting when the quote was made and when OotP came out.
Was our "seeing Vicktor again" that one little blurb or did the quote come AFTER OotP, which now only leaves Book 7.
I don't recall him in HBP at all.
Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 3, 2006 10:39 am (#1936 of 2486)
Haymoni, the quotation was from the World Book Day Chat in March 4, 2004. Order of the Phoenix was released in July of 2003. So the quotation could still apply to book seven in my opinion.
journeymom - Aug 3, 2006 11:45 am (#1937 of 2486)
I agree, I think we'll see something of Viktor again. Maybe not as a love interest for Hermione, but connected somehow with the eastern European DE's. I'm not saying he is one, but that he'll have information about them. Or maybe he'll have information about a horcrux. Hermione has probably been keeping in touch with him periodically.
Eponine - Aug 4, 2006 5:50 am (#1938 of 2486)
Since Viktor didn't show up in HBP, it's my opinion that he'll serve as a catalyst in 7 to finally get R/Hr together (if they're not actually together already).
If the trio does a lot of traveling on their Horcrux Hunt, Bulgaria could be one of their stopping places. I'd expect them to take advantage of the contact they have in Krum and either stay with him or get some information from him. Either way, I could see Ron having jealousy issues over him until Hermione sets him straight.
haymoni - Aug 4, 2006 7:00 am (#1939 of 2486)
If Quidditch is still going on, Krum's team could come to play in England.
I just hope that we actually get to SEE him.
I don't want Hermione to read in the Daily Prophet that the famous Bulgarian Seeker, Victor Krum, perished while fighting off two Death Eaters, who had disguised themselves as Beaters.
darien - Aug 4, 2006 11:37 am (#1940 of 2486)
It is very possible they pass Bulgaria on their way to Albania where I suspect there is a Horcrux. Why would Voldemort run away precisely to land himself in Albania? unless he already knew the place. And how did Pettigrew know that he had to go to Albania? but that is getting of the thread...
journeymom - Aug 4, 2006 1:25 pm (#1941 of 2486)
I was wondering where Albania is until I remembered my "Cheers" ancient history. Sam and Coach sing to the tune of "When the Saints Come Marching In":
"Albania, Albania, you border on the Adriadic."
Apropos of nothing, I know!
Chemyst - Aug 4, 2006 2:31 pm (#1942 of 2486)
Since Viktor didn't show up in HBP, it's my opinion that he'll serve as a catalyst in 7 to finally get R/Hr together (if they're not actually together already). - Eponine
Ron probably assumes they are together, but I think he's assuming too much. He let Lavender dump him because she was too high maintenance. He probably thinks a relationship with Hermione will be simpler.
Hermione has stuck to her wand about not letting the guys copy her homework or giving them the answers without trying to figure it out for themselves first. (Good for her.) I think she will demand a baseline of effort from Ron in romance too. Viktor could slip into the story very easily by providing help or information to vanquish Voldemort and do that catalyst thing to prod Ron at the same time– sort of multi-tasking to keep length of the book down without hurting the story.
Solitaire - Aug 4, 2006 4:57 pm (#1943 of 2486)
LOL Journeymom! I remember that!
He let Lavender dump him because she was too high maintenance. He probably thinks a relationship with Hermione will be simpler.
Hm ... I thought he let Lavender dump him because he didn't really like her all that much, and he felt it would be easier than trying to dump her. I definitely got the idea that he was just using Lavender to bug Hermione (and also to "get some practice" with girls).
Solitaire
Chemyst - Aug 4, 2006 6:21 pm (#1944 of 2486)
I thought he let Lavender dump him because he didn't really like her all that much...
Right, Solitaire, and all of that is one long streaming current in my mind. Wants experience ? wants to flaunt experience in front of Hermione ? finds he is not enjoying the work it takes to get a small rise out of Hermione ? allows Lavender to dump him.
Hermione was most jealous when Lavender was happy. When Ron wearied of trying to keep Lavender happy, his ability to use Lavender to bug Hermione fizzled along with it.
cindysuewho45 - Aug 4, 2006 11:15 pm (#1945 of 2486)
Hi all, Yes I agree with you Solitaire. Ron going out with Lavender was all about Hermione kissing Kurm. He has always liked Hermione better than anyone else. If Ron could of thought of a way to end it with Lavender sooner he would have. But there was part of him, that liked the kissing at the start. I expect to see Hermione and Ron together at the start of book 7. When they go to see Harry.
Solitaire - Aug 5, 2006 12:42 pm (#1946 of 2486)
I think they are "together" by the end of Book 6 ... at least, it seems so to me.
Solitaire
darien - Aug 5, 2006 12:43 pm (#1947 of 2486)
I think the same, only they dont tell Harry because he is going throgh Dumbledores death and they dont find it appropiate, especially Hermione.
Solitaire - Aug 5, 2006 12:55 pm (#1948 of 2486)
Since we are seeing the events through Harry's eyes, I can't help thinking he knows it ... and they know he knows it, so there is no reason to discuss it. I also believe he was aware of their feelings for each other even before they were sure themselves.
Solitaire
cindysuewho45 - Aug 5, 2006 9:43 pm (#1949 of 2486)
Hi all, Yes, it would look that way. From the day they put DD to rest, at the end of book 6. But I think it was not known, at that time. Even if Harry could tell what was going on, know one else knew at that point. Well maybe Lavender, may have seen what was going on. I think they will make it known to all, at the start of book 7. Some may of looked at them, at the end of book 6 as just comforting each other.
Die Zimtzicke - Aug 6, 2006 5:00 pm (#1950 of 2486)
Jo said she had written her last Quidditch game, so I'd be surprised if we see Viktor playing Quidditch anywhere near Hermione.
All good points, The One. That reminds me ... I'm still very curious to know how all of the DA kids (Neville, Ernie, Dean, Susan, Anthony, Terry, Hannah, ...) fared in comparison with everyone else (who had only Umbridge for instruction) in their OWLs and NEWTs. Is anyone else?
Solitaire
Catherine - Jul 1, 2006 8:22 am (#1902 of 2486)
I assumed that Harry producing his Patronus Charm during his DADA O.W.L. was responsible for his mark of O.
The examiner may have not given the other students the opportunity to produce one because it did not occur to him that the students could do the charm. We know from Lupin in PoA that even some fully qualified wizards have difficulty with it. Harry, he knew, was supposedly able to do so, and so he got an "extra point" when he performed it.
Solitaire - Jul 1, 2006 9:38 am (#1903 of 2486)
Actually, Catherine, I kind of thought that might also be the reason.
Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 2, 2006 3:01 pm (#1904 of 2486)
I thought part if it was Jo's way of letting us know, even though Hermione is the brightest in her year, that there is something Harry is better at then her. LPO
Puck - Jul 9, 2006 5:23 am (#1905 of 2486)
I agree, LPO.
So, was she upset about not getting all Outstandings, or upset because Harry did better?
Mediwitch - Jul 9, 2006 7:53 am (#1906 of 2486)
Probably both! Hermione does admit to Harry (I think in OoP) that he is better than she is at DADA, so while it's probably not a surprise, I'm sure she is disappointed.
Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 9, 2006 8:36 am (#1907 of 2486)
Hermione does like to compare grades with everyone. It makes Harry work harder though. Look at how she responded to Harry being better at potions than she was. She saw the book as cheating. It irked her something fierce that he out did her. That really demonstrates how differently Harry and Hermione think. Harry looks for help/information all over. Hermione relies only on "Approved" sources. LPO
Puck - Jul 9, 2006 10:25 am (#1908 of 2486)
Which means while she can easily master spells and potions created by others, she's not apt to invent new ones.
Solitaire - Jul 9, 2006 11:21 am (#1909 of 2486)
In some ways, LPO, Hermione reminds me of an "oldest" child I had in class about 12 years ago. Every time I gave an assignment, she asked a million questions and wanted to know in the minutest detail exactly what was expected. She always got it right, but she lacked the originality and inventiveness of her "less perfect" younger siblings, who were willing to take risks and do things over if they bombed.
I think it is critical to know the spells and potions that are taught. But one of the things that has always been Harry's salvation in tight spots is his inventiveness. Think about it ... What experienced adult Witch or Wizard would ever use Expelliarmus! on Voldemort? Yet the use of that simple spell bought Harry vital time and enabled him to escape Voldemort's clutches.
Hermione showed some of this same inventiveness in the DoM. When she used Silencio! on a DE, she apparently saved her life and the lives of others, even though she did suffer considerable injuries. She was probably wishing she could think of some more sophisticated spells at the moment, but she used what she had, and she survived. In the WW, that seems to be the name of the game.
Hermione has "relaxed" considerably since she arrived at Hogwarts. She is far less uptight and far more willing to bend the rules, if she cannot find a way to work within them. Is this good, or is it bad? Here in the "real world," I do think rules and boundaries are important. In the Wizarding World, however, adhering strictly to the rules could cost someone his life. "Situational ethics" seem to be the rule. To someone like Hermione, who has apparently been raised to play by the rules, I can see how this could be troubling.
Solitaire
Soul Search - Jul 9, 2006 11:27 am (#1910 of 2486)
I think we have concluded that Ron and Hermnione will bring diferent types of help to Harry in the Horcrux hunt and Voldemort's defeat.
There is quite a bit of canon to suggest Hermione's contributions: knows a lot, learns taught spells quickly and does them well, has picked up on spells neither Ron nor Harry know, and has studied Ancient Runes and Arithmency.
Hermione also brings a bit of caution to the trio, perhaps too much. Harry, after all, does tend to act rashly. Hermione has shown that she, too, can act when angered though, like when she slapped Draco in PoA.
Hermione can also think things through and analyze a situation. Neither Ron nor Harry seem so inclined. Strange, since Ron is the superior chess player.
But what are Hermione's weaknesses? She is overcautious. She becomes flustered if under pressure. She isn't good on a broom, or perhaps anything athletic. She worries about rules.
Does Ron make up for any of Hermione's shortcomings?
Solitaire - Jul 9, 2006 11:40 am (#1911 of 2486)
This is why the Trio is so good together. Even though each has shortcomings in knowledge and/or abilities alone, when they function as a unit, they really are a total package. Our Trio always remind me of Ecclesiastes 4:12--"Though one may be overpowered by another, two can withstand him. And a threefold cord is not quickly broken." JM2K ...
Solitaire
Choices - Jul 9, 2006 11:45 am (#1912 of 2486)
Hermione is our sleuth - she did her research and found out about Eileen Prince. I think she will do the same for R.A.B. and discover for who or what that stands.
Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 9, 2006 11:49 am (#1913 of 2486)
I think some of Hermione's work ethic could rub off on Ron and Harry. It wouldn't hurt them a bit! I agree Solitaire, a threefold cord is very difficult to break.
One of the things I enjoyed about HBP was Hermione's difficulty with emotional issues. Like most girls she was way ahead of the boys in the first 5 books. I think she learned a lot about herself in HBP. LPO
LooneyLuna - Jul 11, 2006 6:37 pm (#1914 of 2486)
Part of Hermione's coming of age is that she is learning that she does NOT know everything, and I think that scared her. Another part is that it is one thing to do well in school, quite another to do well/survive in the real world.
I felt in HBP that Hermione spent a lot of time (off radar) second guessing herself/dealing with emotional issues, which enabled Ron to step forward. After Ron's poisoning, he only spoke in the hospital wing after he heard Hermione's voice (he croaked, "ermione". That one line spoke volumes of his love for her. I think she recognized that and began to get some of her confidence back.
As for Hermione's work ethic rubbing off on Ron and Harry - I'm sure it will and then some. When Harry becomes singularly focused - watch out Voldemort!
Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 12, 2006 9:07 am (#1915 of 2486)
LoonyLuna I agree. Hermione seemed to have really struggled with confidence. Ron struggled in OoP. I think Jo has done a good job exploring the development of each character. I think both Ron and Hermione needed a kick in the pants and Ron's near death did the trick. Harry needs them to be cooperating to face Voldemort. LPO
haymoni - Jul 14, 2006 7:03 am (#1916 of 2486)
Not to change the subject or anything, but one of the Trivia Questions gave me an idea for the "Ron Smell" that Hermione held back.
Is it possible it was that perfume with the unusual smell that Ron gave her for Christmas one year?
Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 14, 2006 1:00 pm (#1917 of 2486)
Haymoni the perfume was OoP p. 303 Scholastic Hard bound. Hermione's comment was "And that perfume is really unusual, Ron." I'm not sure if that was a positive comment. Especially since she was very happy with the book Harry had given her. It could be though. LPO
haymoni - Jul 14, 2006 1:13 pm (#1918 of 2486)
I'm guessing that she would remember that smell if it was unusual.
I could see her saying, "I smell parchment, grass and that perfume you gave me last Christmas, Ron."
Hermione would know that the 3rd smell was connected to the person you loved, so she stopped herself from saying it out loud.
I just can't think of any smell that would remind Hermione of Ron.
azi - Jul 14, 2006 2:08 pm (#1919 of 2486)
Eau de Ron isn't a very nice thought...
I like the idea, Haymoni!
I always thought that Hermione didn't particuarly like the smell, but didn't want to hurt Ron's feelings. Therefore, she tried to have a positive reaction towards him for trying to get her a nice present.
Regan of Gong - Jul 14, 2006 5:41 pm (#1920 of 2486)
NOOOOO! Don't tell everyone the answers to my trivia!!!
Choices - Jul 14, 2006 6:04 pm (#1921 of 2486)
LOL Yes, I thought Hermione was being diplomatic by saying the perfume was "unusual". Sort of like seeing a ugly baby and commenting..."Wow, now that's a baby!" You're not lying and saying it's cute, but you're not being truthful and saying it's ugly either.
haymoni - Jul 15, 2006 4:01 am (#1922 of 2486)
That epidsode of Seinfeld was on last night, Choices. "That's one snuggly baby!"
Solitaire - Jul 15, 2006 6:10 am (#1923 of 2486)
LOL Haymoni! I didn't watch it last night, but I sure remember seeing the look on Elaine's face every time she was forced to look into the crib. Kinda made me wonder ...
Die Zimtzicke - Jul 15, 2006 6:50 am (#1924 of 2486)
LOL!
I read a fan fic once where Lavender and Parvati threw that perfume out of the dorm because they said it smelled like a dead niffler, and Hermione was glad because she didn't have the nerve to do it herself.
Poor, Ron, though. He tried to please Hermione. At least it was a feminine gift.
Czarina II - Jul 15, 2006 9:34 pm (#1925 of 2486)
I don't see Hermione as being the kind of girl who wears perfume, so she probably thought the gift was unusual anyway. I know if someone gives me perfume, I say thanks but I then don't wear it.
Hermione probably thought: "Wow, so he's finally figured out I'm a girl! Too bad he hasn't realised that I don't wear perfume like Lavender and Parvati!"
Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 18, 2006 9:42 am (#1926 of 2486)
I can't think of a smell to associate with Ron. I loved the mowed grass and parchment with Hermione though. LPO
Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 1, 2006 8:09 pm (#1927 of 2486)
The Leaky Cauldron has an interesting tidbit on the reading in New York City concerning book seven and Hermione. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Finn BV - Aug 1, 2006 9:06 pm (#1928 of 2486)
The article doesn't mention that first, Hermione would probably see the trio, together doing the tasks that Harry had laid out, "unscathed and safe." Or, Jo said, she would see herself "entwined" with a certain individual "whose identity you can probably guess."
The One - Aug 2, 2006 1:11 pm (#1929 of 2486)
"whose identity you can probably guess."
Almost like "You know who"!!!
Does Hermione harbor a secret lust for Voldemort?
Or is Ron the next evil overlord?
The plot thickens, no doubt about that!
haymoni - Aug 2, 2006 1:13 pm (#1930 of 2486)
I don't want to think of Hermione "entwined" with anybody!!
I'm just not ready for that, I guess!
Finn BV - Aug 2, 2006 5:55 pm (#1931 of 2486)
I agree, I can't quite picture her "entwined." Perhaps it was just the first word that came to her head when she was asked the question.
Wizadora - Aug 3, 2006 8:31 am (#1932 of 2486)
Why not? She is 17 years old. I would think that word fitted perfectly for that age. Plus it makes me think of Ron being wrapped around her little finger, which we know he will be when he acknowledges his true feelings. Her word will be law!
Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 3, 2006 9:50 am (#1933 of 2486)
The comments on Hermione raised a line of thoughts in my mind. By the end of HBP it waas established that Ron and Hermione were going to be a couple heading into book seven.
I have a feeling that although Ron and Hermione are couple now that this will not remain so in book seven because, of how events unfold and Ron either dies or moves onto another relationship and Ron's place in Hermione's life will be taken by Viktor Krum based on previous statements given by J.K. Rowling that Viktor Krum would be seen again although not soon.
Die Zimtzicke - Aug 3, 2006 10:07 am (#1934 of 2486)
I would have loved that, but after yesterday, I have very little hope left. As Jo said, "Come on!"
haymoni - Aug 3, 2006 10:19 am (#1935 of 2486)
We saw Victor in GOF and Hermione was writing to him in OotP.
I keep forgetting when the quote was made and when OotP came out.
Was our "seeing Vicktor again" that one little blurb or did the quote come AFTER OotP, which now only leaves Book 7.
I don't recall him in HBP at all.
Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 3, 2006 10:39 am (#1936 of 2486)
Haymoni, the quotation was from the World Book Day Chat in March 4, 2004. Order of the Phoenix was released in July of 2003. So the quotation could still apply to book seven in my opinion.
journeymom - Aug 3, 2006 11:45 am (#1937 of 2486)
I agree, I think we'll see something of Viktor again. Maybe not as a love interest for Hermione, but connected somehow with the eastern European DE's. I'm not saying he is one, but that he'll have information about them. Or maybe he'll have information about a horcrux. Hermione has probably been keeping in touch with him periodically.
Eponine - Aug 4, 2006 5:50 am (#1938 of 2486)
Since Viktor didn't show up in HBP, it's my opinion that he'll serve as a catalyst in 7 to finally get R/Hr together (if they're not actually together already).
If the trio does a lot of traveling on their Horcrux Hunt, Bulgaria could be one of their stopping places. I'd expect them to take advantage of the contact they have in Krum and either stay with him or get some information from him. Either way, I could see Ron having jealousy issues over him until Hermione sets him straight.
haymoni - Aug 4, 2006 7:00 am (#1939 of 2486)
If Quidditch is still going on, Krum's team could come to play in England.
I just hope that we actually get to SEE him.
I don't want Hermione to read in the Daily Prophet that the famous Bulgarian Seeker, Victor Krum, perished while fighting off two Death Eaters, who had disguised themselves as Beaters.
darien - Aug 4, 2006 11:37 am (#1940 of 2486)
It is very possible they pass Bulgaria on their way to Albania where I suspect there is a Horcrux. Why would Voldemort run away precisely to land himself in Albania? unless he already knew the place. And how did Pettigrew know that he had to go to Albania? but that is getting of the thread...
journeymom - Aug 4, 2006 1:25 pm (#1941 of 2486)
I was wondering where Albania is until I remembered my "Cheers" ancient history. Sam and Coach sing to the tune of "When the Saints Come Marching In":
"Albania, Albania, you border on the Adriadic."
Apropos of nothing, I know!
Chemyst - Aug 4, 2006 2:31 pm (#1942 of 2486)
Since Viktor didn't show up in HBP, it's my opinion that he'll serve as a catalyst in 7 to finally get R/Hr together (if they're not actually together already). - Eponine
Ron probably assumes they are together, but I think he's assuming too much. He let Lavender dump him because she was too high maintenance. He probably thinks a relationship with Hermione will be simpler.
Hermione has stuck to her wand about not letting the guys copy her homework or giving them the answers without trying to figure it out for themselves first. (Good for her.) I think she will demand a baseline of effort from Ron in romance too. Viktor could slip into the story very easily by providing help or information to vanquish Voldemort and do that catalyst thing to prod Ron at the same time– sort of multi-tasking to keep length of the book down without hurting the story.
Solitaire - Aug 4, 2006 4:57 pm (#1943 of 2486)
LOL Journeymom! I remember that!
He let Lavender dump him because she was too high maintenance. He probably thinks a relationship with Hermione will be simpler.
Hm ... I thought he let Lavender dump him because he didn't really like her all that much, and he felt it would be easier than trying to dump her. I definitely got the idea that he was just using Lavender to bug Hermione (and also to "get some practice" with girls).
Solitaire
Chemyst - Aug 4, 2006 6:21 pm (#1944 of 2486)
I thought he let Lavender dump him because he didn't really like her all that much...
Right, Solitaire, and all of that is one long streaming current in my mind. Wants experience ? wants to flaunt experience in front of Hermione ? finds he is not enjoying the work it takes to get a small rise out of Hermione ? allows Lavender to dump him.
Hermione was most jealous when Lavender was happy. When Ron wearied of trying to keep Lavender happy, his ability to use Lavender to bug Hermione fizzled along with it.
cindysuewho45 - Aug 4, 2006 11:15 pm (#1945 of 2486)
Hi all, Yes I agree with you Solitaire. Ron going out with Lavender was all about Hermione kissing Kurm. He has always liked Hermione better than anyone else. If Ron could of thought of a way to end it with Lavender sooner he would have. But there was part of him, that liked the kissing at the start. I expect to see Hermione and Ron together at the start of book 7. When they go to see Harry.
Solitaire - Aug 5, 2006 12:42 pm (#1946 of 2486)
I think they are "together" by the end of Book 6 ... at least, it seems so to me.
Solitaire
darien - Aug 5, 2006 12:43 pm (#1947 of 2486)
I think the same, only they dont tell Harry because he is going throgh Dumbledores death and they dont find it appropiate, especially Hermione.
Solitaire - Aug 5, 2006 12:55 pm (#1948 of 2486)
Since we are seeing the events through Harry's eyes, I can't help thinking he knows it ... and they know he knows it, so there is no reason to discuss it. I also believe he was aware of their feelings for each other even before they were sure themselves.
Solitaire
cindysuewho45 - Aug 5, 2006 9:43 pm (#1949 of 2486)
Hi all, Yes, it would look that way. From the day they put DD to rest, at the end of book 6. But I think it was not known, at that time. Even if Harry could tell what was going on, know one else knew at that point. Well maybe Lavender, may have seen what was going on. I think they will make it known to all, at the start of book 7. Some may of looked at them, at the end of book 6 as just comforting each other.
Die Zimtzicke - Aug 6, 2006 5:00 pm (#1950 of 2486)
Jo said she had written her last Quidditch game, so I'd be surprised if we see Viktor playing Quidditch anywhere near Hermione.
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haymoni - Aug 7, 2006 6:06 am (#1951 of 2486)
Viktor could be in town for a match without us having to hear the play-by-play.
If the Wedding is actually in France, it could be a coincidence that he just happens to be playing there at the time of the wedding.
Pamzter - Aug 7, 2006 4:41 pm (#1952 of 2486)
I'm hoping he'll help out with part of their search.
Solitaire - Aug 7, 2006 4:42 pm (#1953 of 2486)
The problem with that, Pamzter, is that Harry would have to let him in on the Horcrux thing. I'm not sure that is what Dumbledore wanted him to do.
Solitaire
Pamzter - Aug 7, 2006 5:09 pm (#1954 of 2486)
Yes, it probably would be kind of hard to say, "Come help us, but we can't let you know what it's about." But then again Viktor could have some information for them, or lead them to location without knowing all the details.
I'm hoping Harry learns to ask for help soon (along with an improved attitude, a little more maturity, etc. . .)
Solitaire - Aug 7, 2006 8:34 pm (#1955 of 2486)
I'll admit Viktor could be a valuable ally. Coming from Durmstrang, he is probably pretty well-versed in the Dark Arts. He might even know how to create and destroy Horcruxes. It wouldn't hurt to have his expertise on Harry's side.
Solitaire
cindysuewho45 - Aug 7, 2006 9:21 pm (#1956 of 2486)
Hi all, Maybe Hermione will send Krum a note, knowing that they teach Dark Arts at his school. And get some info. from him that way, as well as Krum turning up after he gets the note. Knowing that Hermione is in danger. This would make Ron stop waiting around, he would want everyone to know that he was with Hermione at that point. JKR said we would see Krum again.
Solitaire - Aug 7, 2006 10:36 pm (#1957 of 2486)
I really don't think Ron is "waiting around" any longer. I got the very definite idea that he had made his move and there was now an understanding between Hermione and Ron. Of course, Hermione will want a more definite declaration of his love, eventually ... but I think they are clearly "an item."
Solitaire
aggieamy - Aug 8, 2006 5:24 am (#1958 of 2486)
Have we thought about Krum becoming the next DADA professor? I am doubting that Snape will be welcomed back next term. That would give him a chance to help Hermione with the Horcruxes search back at Hogwards while Harry's out looking for them.
Die Zimtzicke - Aug 8, 2006 7:58 am (#1959 of 2486)
I'd love to see Krum as a DADA professor. Jo did say she was not going to bring in too many more new characters. We need a new DADA teacher and a new Transfiguration teacher, IF the school stays open. He'd fit the bill for either. I don't think McGonagall can remain a teacher if she's permanent headmistress. But Durmstrang is a dark school, so DADA fits better. I'd love to see him trying to teach Hermione something new to help with the quest.
haymoni - Aug 8, 2006 8:16 am (#1960 of 2486)
Would he really give up his career as an internationally-known Quidditch Star to teach at Hogwarts????
Even Ludo Bagman was smart enough to know that he couldn't dodge bludgers forever, but I think Viktor is still young enough to play.
Chemyst - Aug 8, 2006 10:35 am (#1961 of 2486)
Would he really give up his career as an internationally-known Quidditch Star to teach at Hogwarts????
...I think Viktor is still young enough to play.
Young enough, yes; and probably healthy enough too— unless he fainted while feinting. ( I always wanted an occasion to say that! )
I do think that a reappearance of Krum will be linked to Hermione's character. Even though he is from a 'dark arts' school, he seems he'd be a very loyal friend to her.
aggieamy - Aug 8, 2006 12:22 pm (#1962 of 2486)
Hmm. I had forgotten that he already had a job. (How do I forget these things and remember all the silly little things?!?!) To defend my original idea I think he could retire young. Maybe he suffered an injury? Not that I really have a clue though!
Solitaire - Aug 8, 2006 1:13 pm (#1963 of 2486)
He could also take a leave of absence to help out--sort of like doing some kind of service work during the war.
Solitaire
legolas returns - Aug 9, 2006 11:42 am (#1964 of 2486)
I was wondering whether we would actually see Krum at Bill and Fleurs wedding? She seems to be very condesending to everyone she meets. She only started to be nice to Harry when he saved her sister. I wonder how many friends she actually has? Could she invite Krum to increase the number of people her age on the Brides side.
I hope that Jo does not go down the Ron being jealous route again as she has in previous books. I would much rather Ron and Hermione had a good talk and settled things in a slightly more grown up manner. They seemed to be fairly close at the funeral so fingers crossed that they will properly form a couple at the begining rather than after everything is sorted out at the end of the book.
I
Ludicrous Patents Office - Aug 9, 2006 3:41 pm (#1965 of 2486)
Maybe Victor would take the job at Hogwarts to be closer to Hermione.
I agree Legolas, I hope the jealousy thing is over. LPO
cindysuewho45 - Aug 9, 2006 10:17 pm (#1966 of 2486)
Hi all, It dose say in the Lexicon-Madam Scoops-by Theme-Snape, that , (There will be a new DADA teacher in book 7 Something will stop Snape from teaching DADA in the next book.) I my self had not thought of Victor as a teacher. But you never know! I also hope that Ron will handle Victor showing up well, this time.
legolas returns - Aug 9, 2006 11:17 pm (#1967 of 2486)
I would have thought that AKing the previous headmaster would kind of stop you from teaching.
Hermione described him as not the talkative type. Not sure how good that would make him at complicated explantions if students did not understand.
darien - Aug 10, 2006 1:46 am (#1968 of 2486)
He wouldnt make complicated explanations, and thats why students will love him.
TheSaint - Aug 10, 2006 3:41 am (#1969 of 2486)
No way. Krum would be what...20. Maybe the new Quidditch coach, but since we won't see any Quidditch, I doubt even that.
Hoot Owl - Aug 10, 2006 12:25 pm (#1970 of 2486)
I don't think Hermione will dangle Krum in front of Ron, at least not deliberately She got a taste of her own medicine and did not like being jealous. She may not let Ron in on that secret though.
She probably told Viktor that she fancied Ron way back at the end of GOF, during their private goodby. He did go back and shake Harry's and Ron's hands, that is what a sportsman does when he loses a contest. He had invited her to visit him in Bulgaria, instead she spent the summer with Ron at Grimould Place (OoP)!
Honour - Aug 11, 2006 4:52 am (#1971 of 2486)
Wasn't Severus quite young when he was first engaged as a professor?
Awhile back I suggested that Viktor may come back as maybe an assistant teacher.
I've always fancied the idea of having Andromeda coming to Hogwarts to teach the DADA class, being a Black, and a Slytherin could come in handy ... oops! thoughts for another thread...
Actually I hope Viktor does come back, brings Hermione to her senses, and then sweeps her off her feet!
Regan of Gong - Aug 11, 2006 4:26 pm (#1972 of 2486)
Potty Five Words is writing about Viktor teaching at Durmstrang.
Ludicrous Patents Office - Aug 12, 2006 6:51 pm (#1973 of 2486)
I think Hermione would make a good teacher. She has lots of experience helping Harry and Ron out. There is so much she can do. LPO
Solitaire - Aug 12, 2006 11:28 pm (#1974 of 2486)
I do think she would make a good teacher and even a good Headmistress, at some point in time. My money, though, is still on Neville for the student who comes to work at Hogwarts. I look for him to take on the Herbology class.
Solitaire
cindysuewho45 - Aug 15, 2006 9:44 am (#1975 of 2486)
Hi all, Yes I agree with you Solitaire. About Neville being the student that will end up teaching at Hogwarts. I feel that Hermione will still teach in away, but it will be in away that works with the MoM, so that other magical creatures will have some or more rights also. I feel that she could end up being responcable for some law that helps all.
Vulture - Aug 28, 2006 12:10 pm (#1976 of 2486)
Hi, Folks: Sorry if I'm interrupting _ my following two posts are originally from the Snape thread but have a lot about Hermione. By all means ignore them if ye're in the middle of something else....
Vulture - Aug 28, 2006 12:13 pm (#1977 of 2486)
Vulture, you point out that Hermione was big on following the rules; if you look back, you'll see that that is probably the second biggest complaint Snape has about Harry--aside from being arrogant. He sees him as being someone who, like his father, believes the rules shouldn't apply to him. Yet another parallel with Hermione. (Ann [/b]- Aug 25, 2006 4:33 pm (#147, "Severus Snape" thread))
I know that that's one of the things he says about Harry, but isn't he hypocritical in this ? He doesn't seem to have the same problem with Malfoy breaking rules (I can think of one clear example in Book 3), and by being selective like that about whom he enforces rules on, he is himself breaking them. One has only to look at McGonagall's strict enforcement _ applied completely even-handedly _ to see the contrast. Hermione, I think, would be much more on McGonagall's wavelength (in Book 5, incidentally, Hermione's changed attitude to rules (see reason 3, below) is echoed by McGonagall).
If I were to compare it to a typical school class that I'm familiar with, I'd see Hermione as the very academic, responsible girl, the girl the teacher's love, does community service, always chosen as the "leader" especially when the leadership position is chosen by teachers. Proud. Thinks her opinions are generally more relavant and knowledgeable than others. The "I know best. I even know what's best for you, even if you don't agree," kind of mentality. Has some friends, for whom she continues to play the "I know best" role and exerts that power by enabling the others through a large knowledge base, which they can only access (or think they can only access) through her. The sad thing about this sort of person is that if their huge knowledge base was suddenly gone, one wonders who would continue to want them around. Sorry, I guess that's cynical. (wynnleaf [/b]- Aug 26, 2006 8:54 am (#150, "Severus Snape" thread))
I'd agree pretty much with the above, except for the second-last ("sad thing is ...") sentence _ at least if you're applying that sentence to Hermione. I've four reasons for saying that:
(1) Just before Harry faces Quirrell near the end of Book 1, Hermione shows a great deal of self-awareness (as well as humility and love) in putting "friendship and bravery" above "books and cleverness". I recognise the type you describe, above, but is humility a typical quality of theirs ?
(2) In Book 5, Hermione reveals that the Sorting Hat originally thought of putting her in Ravenclaw (for her brains), "...but it decided on Gryffindor in the end". Why did that happen, I wonder ? Did Hermione have something similar to Harry's "not Slytherin" moment, or did the Hat just change its mind all by itself ? We haven't been told so far. (If it was Hermione's doing, why might she want to be in Gryffindor ? Perhaps because of her earlier comment on the train that Dumbledore was ?) But in any case, my point is that the Hat did not end up placing her on the basis of her brain.
(3) Also in Book 5 (as I think I mentioned in the "Was Anyone Disappointed In Book 6" thread), Hermione grows and branches out a bit beyond her original image, to pull some very unorthodox stunts: a subversive deal in a pub with unusual characters, organising a secret society against the Headmistress, encouraging (to their stunned amazement !!) the school's biggest troublemakers in creating mayhem, and finally showing a flash of ruthlessness in deliberately and coldly leading Umbridge into a trap she knew could be lethal. Now, before you say so, I'm well aware (and said so before) that, in all this, Hermione is still, in a way, being loyal to the school _ it's just that true loyalty, during the Umbridge regime, demands something more than the mere rules-obeying conformity of a Marietta. Nevertheless, I think there's more going on here than just a walking human encyclopedia or teacher's pet.
(4) Having written them out, I can see that the above 3 reasons may not answer the point directly. But my fourth is simple: if Hermione's "huge knowledge base was suddenly gone", Harry and Ron would still want her around. Yes, their friendship was a matter of luck (the troll incident), but then, much true friendship is a matter of luck in the beginning.
Vulture - Aug 28, 2006 12:28 pm (#1978 of 2486)
In fact, Hermione is not at all kind to Marietta Edgecombe; she plots to drug two other mostly innocent students (Crabb and Goyle, innocent of any involvement in what she's investigating) solely so she can enable Harry and Ron to completely unnecessarily interrogate Draco; she plans and attempts to impersonate another innocent student (Millecent). She persists in attempting to literally force the house elves into a complete life-changing situation, solely because she thinks it's for their best interests. She confines Rita Skeeter to a jar for a long period of time and then blackmails her. She sabotaged another student's (am forgetting his name) attempt to join the Quidditch team solely to make sure Ron got a better chance. She was not particularly "kind" to Ron when he upset her during HBP.
That's some instances I can think of off the top of my head. Where was she "kind" to her enemies?
I agree that we haven't seen the stereotypical version of "kindness" from Snape except toward Narcissa and perhaps Draco when he was injured from the Sectumsempra. On the other hand, Snape does (if he is loyal) show a willingness to protect someone he clearly dislikes (Harry), spend a lot of time making wolfsbane potion for someone else he thoroughly dislikes (Lupin), save the life of Gryffindor Katie Bell (he presumably dislikes Gryffindors), and generally put his life on the line constantly to help a group of Order members who seem to all distrust him with the exception of Dumbledore. (wynnleaf [/b]- Aug 27, 2006 10:09 pm (#155, "Severus Snape" thread))
I would agree that perhaps "fair" would have been a more accurate word than "kind". (rambkowalczyk, it was your post originally _ what do you think ?) I think Hermione is, as far as possible, fair to all, even her enemies. However, I disagree completely that there was anything wrong in Hermione's actions to the enemies listed above:
Marietta: She was a traitor _ end of story. She deserved what she got _ in fact, Hermione's punishment was quite lenient. With traitors, soft soap just does not work _ and worse, makes greater treachery likely. In Book 5, Voldemort has returned, the Ministry are trying to get rid of Dumbledore and ignoring Voldemort, and Umbridge is imposing the Ministry's will in a particularly brutal way. All this was known to the D.A. At its very beginning, Hermione warned the D.A. what signing up meant. Among other things, it meant keeping the D.A.'s secrets, accepting the fact that Voldemort was back, and thus accepting that they were at war. There was even a debate between members about their worries before they all signed _ and Marietta did not say a word. If she wanted out, that was the time to get out. People are not supposed to do the right thing because they've been told what the punishment is: they're supposed to do the right thing because it's the right thing.
Marietta sold out her friends. She sold out her best friend _ who stood by her afterwards in a way she certainly didn't deserve. Did Hermione kill her or injure her ? No: she hurt her pride _ which is exactly what Marietta needed. Indeed, her punishment, literally, forces her to look at herself (in more ways than one !!) and thus gives her a chance to change _ that's more than most traitors who are caught get. So in fact, Hermione wasn't just being fair, but also kind in the long run.
Crabbe and Goyle: As these aren't major characters, JKR can't be expected to cross all the T's and dot all the I's, but enough had been said in Book 1 to show that these two were, and are, bullies and thugs. "Mostly innocent" ? _ I don't agree: they were closely mixed up with Draco (see below).
Draco Malfoy: I disagree that the interrogation of Draco Malfoy was "unnecessary". The only reason we know it's "unnecessary" is that Harry and Ron found out that Malfoy was not the Heir Of Slytherin. But before that, Malfoy (without realising it himself, of course) had done everything to make himself Suspect No. 1 _ only failing because Harry was most people's Suspect No. 1. Unlike most students, Draco was openly gleeful when the Heir rose again. When students at last stopped suspecting Harry, the alternative suspect they immediately thought of was Malfoy _ and Harry shot that down straight away (despite his dislike of Malfoy): he wouldn't have had the data to do so without that interrogation. Bear in mind that Harry felt under pressure to clear his name, and no-one apart from Ron or Hermione were offering to do the investigative work.
Millicent Bulstrode: Given that Draco was likely to talk openly to her, I question the description of her as "innocent". Draco and his friends were openly celebrating the Heir Of Slytherin's return _ Draco wanted to help the Heir, and was disappointed that the "Mudblood Granger" didn't die.
Rita Skeeter: A particularly leech-like journalist feeding off the misery she can create in people's lives _ and one of JKR's most brilliantly (and accurately)-created characters. (I did a bit of reading about what was in JKR's mind in creating Rita, and feel quite sure about what I'm saying.) Anyway, I agree totally with everything Hermione did _ the moral is, if you're a beetle you shouldn't keep getting in people's hair !! Hermione forced her to act decently for a change _ what's so bad about that ?
House-Elves: Well, much of what's written about Hermione and house-elves is not intended to be other than comedy. There are some serious points hidden along the way, though, about slavery and particularly, slavery's mental aspect _ how slaves, with the passage of time, can be got to accept their condition as "normal". Yes, like many idealists, Hermione gets things comically wrong, because (again, like many idealists) dealing with people _ in other words, making new friends _ is not something she's very good at. But her intentions were quite fair _ and kind, too, in this case !!
McLaggen: Well, I didn't think much of Book 6's writing, so perhaps I shouldn't comment. Nevertheless _ yes, Hermione sabotaged his attempt to join the team, but I don't think she regarded him as an enemy. And what she said about his personality and how it would affect the team was proven right later on in the book.
As for her actions towards Ron after seeing him mouth-wrestling with Lavender _ OK, not very "kind", but probably fair !! After all, Ron did it partly to hurt her. Also, bear in mind that students hexing each other when they're annoyed is par for the course at Hogwarts.
As for Snape: We have only one definite recorded instance (i.e. Book 1) of "willingness to protect someone he clearly dislikes (Harry)" _ in all other cases, we get into endless debates according to which side we believe he's on. Even Snape himself (in "Spinner's End") was able to make a case for how protecting Harry in Book 1 was not truly from kind or good motives, but necessary to being an agent for the Dark Side. The Wolfsbane for Lupin and whatever he did for Katie Bell were, essentially, done under Dumbledore's orders _ so how sincere you think he was about them depends, once again, on your bet as to his loyalties. (By the way, just struck me: are bookmakers offering odds about which side Snape will turn out to be on ?!) The phrase about Snape generally putting his life on the line is one I don't agree with. Essentially, it's what Snape says about himself at Order meetings _ which doesn't give me faith in its accuracy, or modesty !! (Yes, I suppose that, technically, he's at risk every time he meets a Death Eater.)
Mind you, this does bring me to a key difference between Hermione and Snape _ we know far more facts about Hermione.Virtually everything I've just said about Snape can (and will !) be shot down simply because we don't know which side he's on.
rambkowalczyk - Aug 28, 2006 9:21 pm (#1979 of 2486)
following Vulture's lead I am recopying what I had in the Snape thread. The discussion was originally how much Snape and Hermione had in common and I suggested that Hermione was kinder. Wynnleaf disagreed and provided evidence to challenge my assertion. Vulture (in the previous post)has already copied wynnleafs comments and responded to them. I will just reprint my response.
reprint begins--- Obviously my statement about Hermione's kindness doesn't apply to her entire life and perhaps that statement needs to be fine tuned.
1 Marietta. Hermione's actions towards Marietta were impersonal. What happened to Marietta would have happened to anyone who broke the magical contract. Hermione didn't seem to get any personal satisfaction out of hexing her nor did she question whether that particular hex might be to harsh.(in that it persisted for over a year).
2 Her actions regarding the making of Polyjuice potion indicates neither kindness nor cruelness. It shows her fear not only for herself but for other Muggleborns. She feels desperate measures are needed to find out who is behind the attacks. Draco has in subtle ways threatened her.
3 Forcing house elfs to accept freedom. This somewhat misguided action is a result of seeing Winky's distress at being unfairly dismissed from the Crouch household. Allowing people to accept their slavery is the easy thing to do. Encouraging them to take responsibility for their own lives is more difficult. Hermione is taking the more difficult option. Although what she is doing is not really the best thing it might be better than doing nothing.
4 Rita Skeeter. Best example of how Hermione isn't kind and shows that she does have a little bit of vindictiveness in her. Excellant point. I will point out that when she captured the beetle it was because the beetle was in the hospital wing not because Hermione went out of her way to find her.
5 Hexing McLaggin so Ron could get on the Quidditch team. good point. It almost shows a Slytherin side to her.
6 Vindictiveness to Ron when he was snogging/dating Lavender. No argument here.
Better examples of Hermione's kindness/concern for others
1 Neville, In book 1, Neville is clearly a loser, perhaps the Snape of his day--a chubby little kid with little magical talent who loses his toad alot. Whereas other students steered clear of him she took him under her wing and tried to help him even when a teacher tells her not to.
2 She is concerned about younger students being taken advantage of by Fred and George when they wanted to test their products.
3 She was concerned about Montague when he left school after being tossed in the Vanishing cabinet. She thought she should tell how he got there.
4 She was concerned for Draco after Moody turned him into a ferret.
5 She defended not only Snape but also Lockhart.
Snape's moments of kindness that we have seen so far have only been towards Narcissa, and Draco. It can be argued that Snape chooses not to show his kindness because it would destroy his image. For example in the fifth book he does intervene to make sure Neville doesn't get hurt by Crabbe when he is strangling him.
I wonder if the main difference between Snape and Hermione is their ability to forgive and let go of the past. --end of reprint--
I would agree that perhaps "fair" would have been a more accurate word than "kind". (rambkowalczyk, it was your post originally _ what do you think ?) Vulture
You're probably right. I was trying to contrast Hermione and Snape. Whereas Snape gave as good as he got, I don't think Hermione "gave" unless attacked. (With the possible exception of attacking Ron with those birds).
For the sake of completeness Die Zimtzicke also pointed out that Hermione said she couldn't harm a baby (The DE whose head kept reverting to a babies head) when they were fighting death eaters at the MOM.
Die Zimtzicke - Aug 28, 2006 9:24 pm (#1980 of 2486)
Regrding Hermione and Marietta, I hope no one here ever has to pay for the rest of their lives for something they did when they were sixteen. And I certainly hope no one ever talks you into signing a contract, that does not have everything in it spelled out. No one knew what would happen if they broke the contract, so Hermione was being stupid in my opinion if she actually thought that contract would be a deterrent.
Laura W - Aug 29, 2006 2:59 am (#1981 of 2486)
"Regrding Hermione and Marietta, I hope no one here ever has to pay for the rest of their lives for something they did when they were sixteen. And I certainly hope no one ever talks you into signing a contract, that does not have everything in it spelled out. No one knew what would happen if they broke the contract,"
I completely agree with everything you wrote in the above quote, Die Z.
I really like Hermoine, but twice in the series I felt ashamed of her. Once, when she put a hidden clause in the contract. (As a contract worker myself, I'm particularly sensitive to this.) And the second time, when she rigged the Quidditch try-outs. McLaggan may have been a jerk, but he won the keeper position fair and square; and I think it was both unsporting and unethical of Miss Granger to use magic to take it away from him.
Laura
Chemyst - Aug 29, 2006 4:31 am (#1982 of 2486)
Hermione was being stupid in my opinion if she actually thought that contract would be a deterrent.
Well, if you phrase it THAT way! ...then, of course, I'll agree.
I don't think the jinx was ever intended as a deterrent. Anyone who signed it was under an honor code. Your own honor would be the deterrent; a "My word is my bond," situation. For a jinx to be a deterrent, they would have to know about it.
The jinx, as I see it, was not intended to prevent anyone from telling, but to protect the other members by exposing the violator(s). Because the DA had immediate, conclusive proof of who was responsible for telling Umbridge, there was no infighting, no false accusations, no unwarranted casting of aspersions, and not even much additional call to avenge. Now once enacted, the jinx did have some deterrent effect which kept Marianne from spilling additional information, but I do not believe that was the primary purpose for Hermione's use of it. I think it was a test of whom they could trust.
Hmmm... I wonder if Dumbledore used a similar jinx on Snape's teaching contract? Maybe that is why he trusts him! Snape's hair is always greasy; and were we to ever see it clean...
Mrs Brisbee - Aug 29, 2006 6:32 am (#1983 of 2486)
Hmmm... I wonder if Dumbledore used a similar jinx on Snape's teaching contract? Maybe that is why he trusts him! Snape's hair is always greasy; and were we to ever see it clean... --Chemyst
ROFL!
I really like Hermione, but twice in the series I felt ashamed of her. Once, when she put a hidden clause in the contract. (As a contract worker myself, I'm particularly sensitive to this.) And the second time, when she rigged the Quidditch try-outs. McLaggan may have been a jerk, but he won the keeper position fair and square; and I think it was both unsporting and unethical of Miss Granger to use magic to take it away from him. --Laura W.
I tend to view Hermione's contract jinx as a necessity under the circumstances, because she had a grasp of how dangerous what they were doing was actually going to be, but I'm also uncomfortable with the hidden clause. I'd definitely think twice in the future about signing anything given to me by Miss Granger, even something like a membership list for SPEW.
Although I don't think McClaggen earned the Keeper position (he and Ron were doing about the same, but even so McClaggen is not a team player and therefore is wrong for a team sport), what Hermione did there was very wrong, and really surprised me!
wynnleaf - Aug 29, 2006 7:07 am (#1984 of 2486)
Since Vulture and rambkowalczyk posted their comments from the Snape thread over here, I thought I'd answer the Hermione parts here also.
Vulture spent a good deal of space justifying the various instances that I had listed as Hermione being "unkind." Well, I wasn't endeavoring to comment on the fairness or unfairness of Hermione's actions, simply the kindness aspect. After all, the comment I was responding to was that Hermione was more "kind" to her enemies than Snape -- not that she was particularly fair or unfair.
rambkowalczyk commented on examples I gave of her unkindness.
As regards Marietta. Even though the jinx was not directed originally at anyone in particular, it would be fair to say that the jinx was ultimately directed at whoever broke the DA contract -- therefore, such a person could be considered a kind of "enemy" to the DA. Hermione put a hidden, possibly permanent jinx on anyone who broke the contract. That's an example of being "unkind" to one's enemy -- even if Hermione didn't know who the enemy might be, and even if it was fair. I don't think it was fair, but that's hardly the question at the moment.
Regarding drugging Goyle and Crabb in COS. HRH tended to see them as the "enemy," which is why they even suspected Draco in the first place (erroneously and with practically zero evidence). Anyway, Crabb and Goyle had absolutely nothing to do with the Chamber of Secrets and HRH had absolutely no evidence that they did. Hermione's decision to drug Crabb and Goyle and impersonate them could be construed as "unkind," because it was completely unjustified, put them at a certain risk, robbed them of their freedom temporarily, and robbed their "personhood" (sort of) even if they didn't know it. They can be called enemies, and she was unkind.
Hermione also plotted to "rob" Millicent (that's what I consider it to take her hair and transform into her likeness and impersonate her). There was no evidence to back up the decision to do this to Millicent. Hermione just thought it was a useful thing to do in order to get to Draco. This was unkind to Millicent, who didn't deserve it.
I think we (rambkowalczyk and I) on her unkindness to Rita, McLaggen, and Ron (in HBP). The point isn't whether she was justified, but whether she was kind to them when they were acting awfully to her -- and no she wasn't.
The following are examples rambkowalczyk gave of Hermione's kindness to enemies.
She was concerned about Montague when he left school after being tossed in the Vanishing cabinet. She thought she should tell how he got there.
She was concerned for Draco after Moody turned him into a ferret.
She defended not only Snape but also Lockhart.
I'm not quoting the examples of Hermione's kindness toward Neville or the kids that Fred and George are taking advantage of. They were not her enemies. I never said that Hermione wasn't kind at all, but that she was not particularly kind to her enemies.
While I agree that there's a certain kindness in her words, they are only words. She may have feelings of sympathy for Montague and Draco, and she voices her concern. But when it comes to actual actions I don't see Hermione actually acting in a kind way toward an enemy. As the saying goes "talk is cheap." In actual actions, Hermione is not at all kind to her enemies.
As regards Snape, I commented on him on the Snape thread.
Vulture - Aug 29, 2006 10:09 am (#1985 of 2486)
Very rushed post, as I'm on short library time just now !!
I agree with much of rambkowalczyk's post #1979, apart from the parts about Hermione in Book 6 _ I have to think about those a bit, but off the top of my head, my reaction would be that I wasn't that into Book 6 in general, anyway (as ye are no doubt sick of hearing !!)
On Die Z's post #1980 and Laura W's #1981 _ well, I know that my views on Marietta (see #1978) are fairly emphatic, almost militant. I understand how ye feel about contracts and hidden clauses _ all I would say is that they were in a war situation, and I have certain views on treachery in war: I know they're not everyone's. Hermione did stress at the beginning that if you joined the D.A. you were agreeing not to divulge its secrets. Secret resistance organisations in World War 2 didn't spell out their punishments for betrayal either _ it was understood that betrayal was wrong. So I think (this is just my opinion) that our disagreement focusses on Marietta (and her friends) being sixteen _ would I be right ?
In reply to wynnleaf's post #1984 _ yes, I didn't feel any great disagreement with you about her "kindness" but nevertheless felt her fairness worth discussing. Me and keyboards _ it's an addiction !!
Being logged out _ cheers for now !!
Hoot Owl - Aug 29, 2006 10:14 am (#1986 of 2486)
The "SNEAK" jinx was not necessarily meant as a deterrent or a punishment, it was an indicator that the secrecy of the contract was broken! The D. A. would know when someone had talked. The "sneak" could not come back to the meetings and gather more evidence.
Hermione wasn't too fussed about the consequences to the informant.
Ron and McClaggen probably would have tied. Harry could have done another round or chosen on the basis of experience and compatablity. So she made it easier for both her friends by cheating. Was that kindness or selfishness ?
All is fair in love and war.
Steve Newton - Aug 29, 2006 10:48 am (#1987 of 2486)
Harry calls the DA a rebellion(chapter 17 OOTP). A rebellion pretty much makes it own rules. And Marietta joined of her own free will. And was part of the unanimous vote making Harry the leader. I think Hermione's jinx, at one point Umbridge calls it a hex, was a minimum, and necessary, protection for the group.
Choices - Aug 29, 2006 5:44 pm (#1988 of 2486)
I don't understand this bit about Hermione not being kind to her enemies. Isn't that the point of having enemies? They are the people to whom you don't have to be kind. Come on, what do you do....shoot them and then offer them a bandaid? Sometimes you can take kindness to the extreme.
Chemyst - Aug 29, 2006 6:33 pm (#1989 of 2486)
Isn't that the point of having enemies?
One would think so, yes.
Ludicrous Patents Office - Aug 29, 2006 8:14 pm (#1990 of 2486)
HBP p. 314 Scholastic Hardbound "Harry was left to ponder in silence the depths to which girls would sink to get revenge." Hermione operates just like a teen age girl. It is not always pretty. Hermione is just as capable of being unkind as anyone.
One thing Snape and Hermione have in common they are very intelligent. Hermione has a sense of fairness though. I don't think Snape ever has. Hermione has always been loved. LPO
Die Zimtzicke - Aug 29, 2006 8:33 pm (#1991 of 2486)
If someone broke the contract, the whole DA would be in deep...well, you know what I mean, so at that point, who broke it wouldn't have helped much. Obviously to me the only one who didn't get expelled would be the one who broke it.
If one has dealt a great deal with contracts, it appears that they have more sympathy to Marietta. Is that a fair resume of the situation?
Meoshimo - Aug 29, 2006 11:20 pm (#1992 of 2486)
Hoot Owl-
I don't think it was kindness or selfishness; I think it as immoral. I was actually surprised that Hermione cheated to get Ron on the team. Whether it's for yourself or a friend, cheating is still wrong. And then she actually is angry at Harry for seemingly putting Felix Felicis in Ron's drink
Then again, she is a teenager and liable to make errors in judgement. I think she did it out of affection for Ron but it still doesn't excuse it.
Steve-
Do you mean protection for the group as a deterent to snitching? If so, then I desagree. If she meant it to prevent people from betraying the group, then why didn't she tell them they had just signed an enchanted parchment? It would be along the lines of a shop posting signs telling customers that they're on camera so they'd better not steal stuff. The fact that Hermione didn't tell DA members she had bewitched the parchment leads me to believe that she did it so they (Dumbledore's Army) would know who the snitch was and the traitor would be shamed by being exposed.
Honour - Aug 30, 2006 2:09 am (#1993 of 2486)
I would think that in the magical world contracts work differently to those in our world. For example, the vow Severus took with Narcissa, was not only a promise to perform certain deeds, Bella bound them with magic physically, and I think to some extent spiritually, (not sure if this is the right word). Their words were not just a bunch of empty words but a vow!, and we have found (via Ron) that if the vow is not fulfilled payment is death. In our world it is much different (depending on who you sign your contract with!.
Apart from Harry, I would think that the DA members knew that there would be some recourse with signing a contract, especially a contract written by a witch, signed by other witches and wizards, in the magical world. Sometimes we posters, forget that these characters exist in another world, which actually runs on quite a different tangent to that of our own.
wynnleaf - Aug 30, 2006 3:33 am (#1994 of 2486)
Apart from Harry, I would think that the DA members knew that there would be some recourse with signing a contract, especially a contract written by a witch, signed by other witches and wizards, in the magical world.
Then why was Ron surprised by what Hermione did? Ron's a pureblood. According to this theory, he should have known she'd put in a hidden clause, but he didn't.
On the unbreakable vow, apparently that's part of such a thing -- that's why it's called "unbreakable." Even Fred and George knew at age 7 what an unbreakable vow was. The DA contract wasn't called the "unbreakable contract." Was it called anything? I thought it was just a "sign your name to the list if you want to join and don't tell anyone" kind of thing. Did any of the students even call it a contract?
The clause was hidden. We have no evidence that signing your name on the sign-up list to a school club constitutes some sort of binding magical contract in the magical world.
On the "kindness to enemies" thing, I certainly agree that in many of the instances I mentioned, there was no reason for Hermione to be kind. I don't necessarily fault her for all of those instances. I simply wanted to respond to the assertion, made on the Snape thread, that Hermione was a different kind of person from Snape because she was "kind to her enemies," and he was not. That assertion bothered me because Hermione might be nicer in general than Snape, but that doesn't mean she was in any way unusually kind. She's kind to kids that are her friends, but not her enemies. Anyway, to back up my disagreement with the statement that Hermione was "kind to her enemies," I had to list what she actually did to her enemies, even when I agreed with her actions.
cindysuewho45 - Aug 30, 2006 3:46 am (#1995 of 2486)
Hi all, I see what you are saying about Hermione wanting to protect the DA, but if that was the case then she would have been better off to make the jinx so that if a person went to tell, they would forget everything. If that is even a possibility. What she did was pure and simple vengeance. Not that the kid did not have it coming, she did! But what she did, did not get anyone killed. And I think that she still has scars from it. After this amount of time has gone by, I would hope that Hermione will clear it all up for her. Forgive her, but never trust her again.
rambkowalczyk - Aug 30, 2006 5:59 am (#1996 of 2486)
I don't understand this bit about Hermione not being kind to her enemies. Isn't that the point of having enemies? They are the people to whom you don't have to be kind. Choices
I think this will be significant in book 7. JKR has all along said or implied that love is the key. We see many examples of sacrificial love and cases where fear ruled instead of love (Pettigrew's betrayal). Lily died for her son, Dumbledore not only died for the "cause" but for Snape and Draco and indirectly the Malfoy family.
It is clear that in book 7, Harry has some confrontation with Snape. Book 6 makes it obvious that Harry is magically weaker than Snape so he can't get revenge the usual way. I believe the only way he can get stronger is for him to forgive Snape for giving the prophecy to Voldemort and for Harry to also forgive him for killing Dumbledore.
There have been alot of comments on how the major characters were vindictive, petty, and just taking the easy way out. Hermione is a good example: her actions with Ron when he dates Lavender, hexing McLaggin to help Ron get on the Quidditch team.
Also there is the scene where Harry notices Marietta and has a smug feeling of satisfaction. (May be exaggerating Harry's emotion, but let's agree he never questioned the duration of her hex as being unfair).
I think these incidences were deliberately put in because the characters are going to change for the better in book 7.
Wynnleaf has said that Hermione being kind to her enemies really isn't true because it is more talk than action. Very true. Up until now I supposed what I have seen is Hermione's potential to be kind. She could be like Peter (who disregarded his potential for bravery and doing the right thing) and become more vindictive to her enemies by using the party line and say they deserve it.
I think the only way the trio's magic will become stronger is if they forgive, if they show true kindness to their enemies. It is the greatest risk, but will reap the greatest rewards.
wynnleaf - Aug 30, 2006 6:29 am (#1997 of 2486)
rambkowalczyk, you said:
I think this will be significant in book 7. JKR has all along said or implied that love is the key. We see many examples of sacrificial love and cases where fear ruled instead of love (Pettigrew's betrayal). Lily died for her son, Dumbledore not only died for the "cause" but for Snape and Draco and indirectly the Malfoy family.
I completely agree with this! I don't think JKR is going in a direction where the "good guys" triumph because they're stronger. I think she wants to show the good guys triumphing over evil because they are willing to do good things. Not to be too simplistic. But what I mean is that the good guys have to rely on the things that make them good -- love, fairness, and forgiveness. In that way, their ultimate triumph has meaning. If the good guys are "good" just because they have generally pleasant demeanors (mostly), and are moderately fair to their friends, but care less about their enemies, then what does that show? If they triumph simply because they outsmart LV, destroying the horcruxes without his knowledge, and then kill him with some powerful curse -- what has that shown us? The good guys are better because they're smarter and more powerful?
I'm reminded of the "Once and Future King" point that might doesn't make right, right makes might.
I don't see how JKR could have been more clear about love being the key. Over and over and over we hear that LV's first downfall came about because of Lily's love. Over and over we hear that Harry's great power is his ability to love.
Loving lovable people is not that hard. It's mercy to enemies -- like what Harry showed to Pettigrew -- forgiveness, fairness to all rather than just one's friends, and love that will make the "good guys" really good, not being cunning about searching for horcruxes and firing off powerful curses.
Steve Newton - Aug 30, 2006 7:54 am (#1998 of 2486)
I don't want to appear cynical but, to me, "I'm reminded of the "Once and Future King" point that might doesn't make right, right makes might." both say that might makes right.
Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 30, 2006 9:20 am (#1999 of 2486)
I had an interesting thought, in HBP Chapter chapter twenty-two Slughorn after becoming drunk with Hagrid, Professor Slughorn calls Harry by the name Parry Otter. This name combination is intriguing because of the question it raises.
According Merriam-Webster's online dictionary, the word parry has the following meanings:
Main Entry: par•ry Pronunciation: 'per-E, 'pa-rE Function: verb Inflected Form(s): par•ried; par•ry•ing Etymology: probably from French parez, imperative of parer to parry, from Old Occitan parar, from Latin parare to prepare -- more at PARE intransitive verb 1 : to ward off a weapon or blow 2 : to evade or turn aside something transitive verb 1 : to ward off (as a blow) 2 : to evade especially by an adroit answer <parried the question> - parry noun. ([You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] accessed August 30, 2006.)
In Order of the Phoenix chapter twenty-seven the text indicates that Hermione's patronus takes the form of an otter.
Could Slughorn's statement being a foreshadowing of the following possibilities?
Harry in some way have to physically separate himself from Hermione?
Harry will in book seven deflect questions posed by Hermione?
Under the influence of the Imperius Curse Hermione will attempt to injure Harry forcing Harry to counter the blow?
Could a scenario similar to the scene in which Harry offer the use of his blood to gain entrance to the Cave occur again book seven between Hermione and Harry?
rambkowalczyk - Aug 30, 2006 9:54 am (#2000 of 2486)
At the end of book 6, Harry concludes that Draco would not have killed Dumbledore. Would Hermione agree with him or would she think once a git always git. In an instant like this Harry might have to separate himself from Hermione's opinions.
Viktor could be in town for a match without us having to hear the play-by-play.
If the Wedding is actually in France, it could be a coincidence that he just happens to be playing there at the time of the wedding.
Pamzter - Aug 7, 2006 4:41 pm (#1952 of 2486)
I'm hoping he'll help out with part of their search.
Solitaire - Aug 7, 2006 4:42 pm (#1953 of 2486)
The problem with that, Pamzter, is that Harry would have to let him in on the Horcrux thing. I'm not sure that is what Dumbledore wanted him to do.
Solitaire
Pamzter - Aug 7, 2006 5:09 pm (#1954 of 2486)
Yes, it probably would be kind of hard to say, "Come help us, but we can't let you know what it's about." But then again Viktor could have some information for them, or lead them to location without knowing all the details.
I'm hoping Harry learns to ask for help soon (along with an improved attitude, a little more maturity, etc. . .)
Solitaire - Aug 7, 2006 8:34 pm (#1955 of 2486)
I'll admit Viktor could be a valuable ally. Coming from Durmstrang, he is probably pretty well-versed in the Dark Arts. He might even know how to create and destroy Horcruxes. It wouldn't hurt to have his expertise on Harry's side.
Solitaire
cindysuewho45 - Aug 7, 2006 9:21 pm (#1956 of 2486)
Hi all, Maybe Hermione will send Krum a note, knowing that they teach Dark Arts at his school. And get some info. from him that way, as well as Krum turning up after he gets the note. Knowing that Hermione is in danger. This would make Ron stop waiting around, he would want everyone to know that he was with Hermione at that point. JKR said we would see Krum again.
Solitaire - Aug 7, 2006 10:36 pm (#1957 of 2486)
I really don't think Ron is "waiting around" any longer. I got the very definite idea that he had made his move and there was now an understanding between Hermione and Ron. Of course, Hermione will want a more definite declaration of his love, eventually ... but I think they are clearly "an item."
Solitaire
aggieamy - Aug 8, 2006 5:24 am (#1958 of 2486)
Have we thought about Krum becoming the next DADA professor? I am doubting that Snape will be welcomed back next term. That would give him a chance to help Hermione with the Horcruxes search back at Hogwards while Harry's out looking for them.
Die Zimtzicke - Aug 8, 2006 7:58 am (#1959 of 2486)
I'd love to see Krum as a DADA professor. Jo did say she was not going to bring in too many more new characters. We need a new DADA teacher and a new Transfiguration teacher, IF the school stays open. He'd fit the bill for either. I don't think McGonagall can remain a teacher if she's permanent headmistress. But Durmstrang is a dark school, so DADA fits better. I'd love to see him trying to teach Hermione something new to help with the quest.
haymoni - Aug 8, 2006 8:16 am (#1960 of 2486)
Would he really give up his career as an internationally-known Quidditch Star to teach at Hogwarts????
Even Ludo Bagman was smart enough to know that he couldn't dodge bludgers forever, but I think Viktor is still young enough to play.
Chemyst - Aug 8, 2006 10:35 am (#1961 of 2486)
Would he really give up his career as an internationally-known Quidditch Star to teach at Hogwarts????
...I think Viktor is still young enough to play.
Young enough, yes; and probably healthy enough too— unless he fainted while feinting. ( I always wanted an occasion to say that! )
I do think that a reappearance of Krum will be linked to Hermione's character. Even though he is from a 'dark arts' school, he seems he'd be a very loyal friend to her.
aggieamy - Aug 8, 2006 12:22 pm (#1962 of 2486)
Hmm. I had forgotten that he already had a job. (How do I forget these things and remember all the silly little things?!?!) To defend my original idea I think he could retire young. Maybe he suffered an injury? Not that I really have a clue though!
Solitaire - Aug 8, 2006 1:13 pm (#1963 of 2486)
He could also take a leave of absence to help out--sort of like doing some kind of service work during the war.
Solitaire
legolas returns - Aug 9, 2006 11:42 am (#1964 of 2486)
I was wondering whether we would actually see Krum at Bill and Fleurs wedding? She seems to be very condesending to everyone she meets. She only started to be nice to Harry when he saved her sister. I wonder how many friends she actually has? Could she invite Krum to increase the number of people her age on the Brides side.
I hope that Jo does not go down the Ron being jealous route again as she has in previous books. I would much rather Ron and Hermione had a good talk and settled things in a slightly more grown up manner. They seemed to be fairly close at the funeral so fingers crossed that they will properly form a couple at the begining rather than after everything is sorted out at the end of the book.
I
Ludicrous Patents Office - Aug 9, 2006 3:41 pm (#1965 of 2486)
Maybe Victor would take the job at Hogwarts to be closer to Hermione.
I agree Legolas, I hope the jealousy thing is over. LPO
cindysuewho45 - Aug 9, 2006 10:17 pm (#1966 of 2486)
Hi all, It dose say in the Lexicon-Madam Scoops-by Theme-Snape, that , (There will be a new DADA teacher in book 7 Something will stop Snape from teaching DADA in the next book.) I my self had not thought of Victor as a teacher. But you never know! I also hope that Ron will handle Victor showing up well, this time.
legolas returns - Aug 9, 2006 11:17 pm (#1967 of 2486)
I would have thought that AKing the previous headmaster would kind of stop you from teaching.
Hermione described him as not the talkative type. Not sure how good that would make him at complicated explantions if students did not understand.
darien - Aug 10, 2006 1:46 am (#1968 of 2486)
He wouldnt make complicated explanations, and thats why students will love him.
TheSaint - Aug 10, 2006 3:41 am (#1969 of 2486)
No way. Krum would be what...20. Maybe the new Quidditch coach, but since we won't see any Quidditch, I doubt even that.
Hoot Owl - Aug 10, 2006 12:25 pm (#1970 of 2486)
I don't think Hermione will dangle Krum in front of Ron, at least not deliberately She got a taste of her own medicine and did not like being jealous. She may not let Ron in on that secret though.
She probably told Viktor that she fancied Ron way back at the end of GOF, during their private goodby. He did go back and shake Harry's and Ron's hands, that is what a sportsman does when he loses a contest. He had invited her to visit him in Bulgaria, instead she spent the summer with Ron at Grimould Place (OoP)!
Honour - Aug 11, 2006 4:52 am (#1971 of 2486)
Wasn't Severus quite young when he was first engaged as a professor?
Awhile back I suggested that Viktor may come back as maybe an assistant teacher.
I've always fancied the idea of having Andromeda coming to Hogwarts to teach the DADA class, being a Black, and a Slytherin could come in handy ... oops! thoughts for another thread...
Actually I hope Viktor does come back, brings Hermione to her senses, and then sweeps her off her feet!
Regan of Gong - Aug 11, 2006 4:26 pm (#1972 of 2486)
Potty Five Words is writing about Viktor teaching at Durmstrang.
Ludicrous Patents Office - Aug 12, 2006 6:51 pm (#1973 of 2486)
I think Hermione would make a good teacher. She has lots of experience helping Harry and Ron out. There is so much she can do. LPO
Solitaire - Aug 12, 2006 11:28 pm (#1974 of 2486)
I do think she would make a good teacher and even a good Headmistress, at some point in time. My money, though, is still on Neville for the student who comes to work at Hogwarts. I look for him to take on the Herbology class.
Solitaire
cindysuewho45 - Aug 15, 2006 9:44 am (#1975 of 2486)
Hi all, Yes I agree with you Solitaire. About Neville being the student that will end up teaching at Hogwarts. I feel that Hermione will still teach in away, but it will be in away that works with the MoM, so that other magical creatures will have some or more rights also. I feel that she could end up being responcable for some law that helps all.
Vulture - Aug 28, 2006 12:10 pm (#1976 of 2486)
Hi, Folks: Sorry if I'm interrupting _ my following two posts are originally from the Snape thread but have a lot about Hermione. By all means ignore them if ye're in the middle of something else....
Vulture - Aug 28, 2006 12:13 pm (#1977 of 2486)
Vulture, you point out that Hermione was big on following the rules; if you look back, you'll see that that is probably the second biggest complaint Snape has about Harry--aside from being arrogant. He sees him as being someone who, like his father, believes the rules shouldn't apply to him. Yet another parallel with Hermione. (Ann [/b]- Aug 25, 2006 4:33 pm (#147, "Severus Snape" thread))
I know that that's one of the things he says about Harry, but isn't he hypocritical in this ? He doesn't seem to have the same problem with Malfoy breaking rules (I can think of one clear example in Book 3), and by being selective like that about whom he enforces rules on, he is himself breaking them. One has only to look at McGonagall's strict enforcement _ applied completely even-handedly _ to see the contrast. Hermione, I think, would be much more on McGonagall's wavelength (in Book 5, incidentally, Hermione's changed attitude to rules (see reason 3, below) is echoed by McGonagall).
If I were to compare it to a typical school class that I'm familiar with, I'd see Hermione as the very academic, responsible girl, the girl the teacher's love, does community service, always chosen as the "leader" especially when the leadership position is chosen by teachers. Proud. Thinks her opinions are generally more relavant and knowledgeable than others. The "I know best. I even know what's best for you, even if you don't agree," kind of mentality. Has some friends, for whom she continues to play the "I know best" role and exerts that power by enabling the others through a large knowledge base, which they can only access (or think they can only access) through her. The sad thing about this sort of person is that if their huge knowledge base was suddenly gone, one wonders who would continue to want them around. Sorry, I guess that's cynical. (wynnleaf [/b]- Aug 26, 2006 8:54 am (#150, "Severus Snape" thread))
I'd agree pretty much with the above, except for the second-last ("sad thing is ...") sentence _ at least if you're applying that sentence to Hermione. I've four reasons for saying that:
(1) Just before Harry faces Quirrell near the end of Book 1, Hermione shows a great deal of self-awareness (as well as humility and love) in putting "friendship and bravery" above "books and cleverness". I recognise the type you describe, above, but is humility a typical quality of theirs ?
(2) In Book 5, Hermione reveals that the Sorting Hat originally thought of putting her in Ravenclaw (for her brains), "...but it decided on Gryffindor in the end". Why did that happen, I wonder ? Did Hermione have something similar to Harry's "not Slytherin" moment, or did the Hat just change its mind all by itself ? We haven't been told so far. (If it was Hermione's doing, why might she want to be in Gryffindor ? Perhaps because of her earlier comment on the train that Dumbledore was ?) But in any case, my point is that the Hat did not end up placing her on the basis of her brain.
(3) Also in Book 5 (as I think I mentioned in the "Was Anyone Disappointed In Book 6" thread), Hermione grows and branches out a bit beyond her original image, to pull some very unorthodox stunts: a subversive deal in a pub with unusual characters, organising a secret society against the Headmistress, encouraging (to their stunned amazement !!) the school's biggest troublemakers in creating mayhem, and finally showing a flash of ruthlessness in deliberately and coldly leading Umbridge into a trap she knew could be lethal. Now, before you say so, I'm well aware (and said so before) that, in all this, Hermione is still, in a way, being loyal to the school _ it's just that true loyalty, during the Umbridge regime, demands something more than the mere rules-obeying conformity of a Marietta. Nevertheless, I think there's more going on here than just a walking human encyclopedia or teacher's pet.
(4) Having written them out, I can see that the above 3 reasons may not answer the point directly. But my fourth is simple: if Hermione's "huge knowledge base was suddenly gone", Harry and Ron would still want her around. Yes, their friendship was a matter of luck (the troll incident), but then, much true friendship is a matter of luck in the beginning.
Vulture - Aug 28, 2006 12:28 pm (#1978 of 2486)
In fact, Hermione is not at all kind to Marietta Edgecombe; she plots to drug two other mostly innocent students (Crabb and Goyle, innocent of any involvement in what she's investigating) solely so she can enable Harry and Ron to completely unnecessarily interrogate Draco; she plans and attempts to impersonate another innocent student (Millecent). She persists in attempting to literally force the house elves into a complete life-changing situation, solely because she thinks it's for their best interests. She confines Rita Skeeter to a jar for a long period of time and then blackmails her. She sabotaged another student's (am forgetting his name) attempt to join the Quidditch team solely to make sure Ron got a better chance. She was not particularly "kind" to Ron when he upset her during HBP.
That's some instances I can think of off the top of my head. Where was she "kind" to her enemies?
I agree that we haven't seen the stereotypical version of "kindness" from Snape except toward Narcissa and perhaps Draco when he was injured from the Sectumsempra. On the other hand, Snape does (if he is loyal) show a willingness to protect someone he clearly dislikes (Harry), spend a lot of time making wolfsbane potion for someone else he thoroughly dislikes (Lupin), save the life of Gryffindor Katie Bell (he presumably dislikes Gryffindors), and generally put his life on the line constantly to help a group of Order members who seem to all distrust him with the exception of Dumbledore. (wynnleaf [/b]- Aug 27, 2006 10:09 pm (#155, "Severus Snape" thread))
I would agree that perhaps "fair" would have been a more accurate word than "kind". (rambkowalczyk, it was your post originally _ what do you think ?) I think Hermione is, as far as possible, fair to all, even her enemies. However, I disagree completely that there was anything wrong in Hermione's actions to the enemies listed above:
Marietta: She was a traitor _ end of story. She deserved what she got _ in fact, Hermione's punishment was quite lenient. With traitors, soft soap just does not work _ and worse, makes greater treachery likely. In Book 5, Voldemort has returned, the Ministry are trying to get rid of Dumbledore and ignoring Voldemort, and Umbridge is imposing the Ministry's will in a particularly brutal way. All this was known to the D.A. At its very beginning, Hermione warned the D.A. what signing up meant. Among other things, it meant keeping the D.A.'s secrets, accepting the fact that Voldemort was back, and thus accepting that they were at war. There was even a debate between members about their worries before they all signed _ and Marietta did not say a word. If she wanted out, that was the time to get out. People are not supposed to do the right thing because they've been told what the punishment is: they're supposed to do the right thing because it's the right thing.
Marietta sold out her friends. She sold out her best friend _ who stood by her afterwards in a way she certainly didn't deserve. Did Hermione kill her or injure her ? No: she hurt her pride _ which is exactly what Marietta needed. Indeed, her punishment, literally, forces her to look at herself (in more ways than one !!) and thus gives her a chance to change _ that's more than most traitors who are caught get. So in fact, Hermione wasn't just being fair, but also kind in the long run.
Crabbe and Goyle: As these aren't major characters, JKR can't be expected to cross all the T's and dot all the I's, but enough had been said in Book 1 to show that these two were, and are, bullies and thugs. "Mostly innocent" ? _ I don't agree: they were closely mixed up with Draco (see below).
Draco Malfoy: I disagree that the interrogation of Draco Malfoy was "unnecessary". The only reason we know it's "unnecessary" is that Harry and Ron found out that Malfoy was not the Heir Of Slytherin. But before that, Malfoy (without realising it himself, of course) had done everything to make himself Suspect No. 1 _ only failing because Harry was most people's Suspect No. 1. Unlike most students, Draco was openly gleeful when the Heir rose again. When students at last stopped suspecting Harry, the alternative suspect they immediately thought of was Malfoy _ and Harry shot that down straight away (despite his dislike of Malfoy): he wouldn't have had the data to do so without that interrogation. Bear in mind that Harry felt under pressure to clear his name, and no-one apart from Ron or Hermione were offering to do the investigative work.
Millicent Bulstrode: Given that Draco was likely to talk openly to her, I question the description of her as "innocent". Draco and his friends were openly celebrating the Heir Of Slytherin's return _ Draco wanted to help the Heir, and was disappointed that the "Mudblood Granger" didn't die.
Rita Skeeter: A particularly leech-like journalist feeding off the misery she can create in people's lives _ and one of JKR's most brilliantly (and accurately)-created characters. (I did a bit of reading about what was in JKR's mind in creating Rita, and feel quite sure about what I'm saying.) Anyway, I agree totally with everything Hermione did _ the moral is, if you're a beetle you shouldn't keep getting in people's hair !! Hermione forced her to act decently for a change _ what's so bad about that ?
House-Elves: Well, much of what's written about Hermione and house-elves is not intended to be other than comedy. There are some serious points hidden along the way, though, about slavery and particularly, slavery's mental aspect _ how slaves, with the passage of time, can be got to accept their condition as "normal". Yes, like many idealists, Hermione gets things comically wrong, because (again, like many idealists) dealing with people _ in other words, making new friends _ is not something she's very good at. But her intentions were quite fair _ and kind, too, in this case !!
McLaggen: Well, I didn't think much of Book 6's writing, so perhaps I shouldn't comment. Nevertheless _ yes, Hermione sabotaged his attempt to join the team, but I don't think she regarded him as an enemy. And what she said about his personality and how it would affect the team was proven right later on in the book.
As for her actions towards Ron after seeing him mouth-wrestling with Lavender _ OK, not very "kind", but probably fair !! After all, Ron did it partly to hurt her. Also, bear in mind that students hexing each other when they're annoyed is par for the course at Hogwarts.
As for Snape: We have only one definite recorded instance (i.e. Book 1) of "willingness to protect someone he clearly dislikes (Harry)" _ in all other cases, we get into endless debates according to which side we believe he's on. Even Snape himself (in "Spinner's End") was able to make a case for how protecting Harry in Book 1 was not truly from kind or good motives, but necessary to being an agent for the Dark Side. The Wolfsbane for Lupin and whatever he did for Katie Bell were, essentially, done under Dumbledore's orders _ so how sincere you think he was about them depends, once again, on your bet as to his loyalties. (By the way, just struck me: are bookmakers offering odds about which side Snape will turn out to be on ?!) The phrase about Snape generally putting his life on the line is one I don't agree with. Essentially, it's what Snape says about himself at Order meetings _ which doesn't give me faith in its accuracy, or modesty !! (Yes, I suppose that, technically, he's at risk every time he meets a Death Eater.)
Mind you, this does bring me to a key difference between Hermione and Snape _ we know far more facts about Hermione.Virtually everything I've just said about Snape can (and will !) be shot down simply because we don't know which side he's on.
rambkowalczyk - Aug 28, 2006 9:21 pm (#1979 of 2486)
following Vulture's lead I am recopying what I had in the Snape thread. The discussion was originally how much Snape and Hermione had in common and I suggested that Hermione was kinder. Wynnleaf disagreed and provided evidence to challenge my assertion. Vulture (in the previous post)has already copied wynnleafs comments and responded to them. I will just reprint my response.
reprint begins--- Obviously my statement about Hermione's kindness doesn't apply to her entire life and perhaps that statement needs to be fine tuned.
1 Marietta. Hermione's actions towards Marietta were impersonal. What happened to Marietta would have happened to anyone who broke the magical contract. Hermione didn't seem to get any personal satisfaction out of hexing her nor did she question whether that particular hex might be to harsh.(in that it persisted for over a year).
2 Her actions regarding the making of Polyjuice potion indicates neither kindness nor cruelness. It shows her fear not only for herself but for other Muggleborns. She feels desperate measures are needed to find out who is behind the attacks. Draco has in subtle ways threatened her.
3 Forcing house elfs to accept freedom. This somewhat misguided action is a result of seeing Winky's distress at being unfairly dismissed from the Crouch household. Allowing people to accept their slavery is the easy thing to do. Encouraging them to take responsibility for their own lives is more difficult. Hermione is taking the more difficult option. Although what she is doing is not really the best thing it might be better than doing nothing.
4 Rita Skeeter. Best example of how Hermione isn't kind and shows that she does have a little bit of vindictiveness in her. Excellant point. I will point out that when she captured the beetle it was because the beetle was in the hospital wing not because Hermione went out of her way to find her.
5 Hexing McLaggin so Ron could get on the Quidditch team. good point. It almost shows a Slytherin side to her.
6 Vindictiveness to Ron when he was snogging/dating Lavender. No argument here.
Better examples of Hermione's kindness/concern for others
1 Neville, In book 1, Neville is clearly a loser, perhaps the Snape of his day--a chubby little kid with little magical talent who loses his toad alot. Whereas other students steered clear of him she took him under her wing and tried to help him even when a teacher tells her not to.
2 She is concerned about younger students being taken advantage of by Fred and George when they wanted to test their products.
3 She was concerned about Montague when he left school after being tossed in the Vanishing cabinet. She thought she should tell how he got there.
4 She was concerned for Draco after Moody turned him into a ferret.
5 She defended not only Snape but also Lockhart.
Snape's moments of kindness that we have seen so far have only been towards Narcissa, and Draco. It can be argued that Snape chooses not to show his kindness because it would destroy his image. For example in the fifth book he does intervene to make sure Neville doesn't get hurt by Crabbe when he is strangling him.
I wonder if the main difference between Snape and Hermione is their ability to forgive and let go of the past. --end of reprint--
I would agree that perhaps "fair" would have been a more accurate word than "kind". (rambkowalczyk, it was your post originally _ what do you think ?) Vulture
You're probably right. I was trying to contrast Hermione and Snape. Whereas Snape gave as good as he got, I don't think Hermione "gave" unless attacked. (With the possible exception of attacking Ron with those birds).
For the sake of completeness Die Zimtzicke also pointed out that Hermione said she couldn't harm a baby (The DE whose head kept reverting to a babies head) when they were fighting death eaters at the MOM.
Die Zimtzicke - Aug 28, 2006 9:24 pm (#1980 of 2486)
Regrding Hermione and Marietta, I hope no one here ever has to pay for the rest of their lives for something they did when they were sixteen. And I certainly hope no one ever talks you into signing a contract, that does not have everything in it spelled out. No one knew what would happen if they broke the contract, so Hermione was being stupid in my opinion if she actually thought that contract would be a deterrent.
Laura W - Aug 29, 2006 2:59 am (#1981 of 2486)
"Regrding Hermione and Marietta, I hope no one here ever has to pay for the rest of their lives for something they did when they were sixteen. And I certainly hope no one ever talks you into signing a contract, that does not have everything in it spelled out. No one knew what would happen if they broke the contract,"
I completely agree with everything you wrote in the above quote, Die Z.
I really like Hermoine, but twice in the series I felt ashamed of her. Once, when she put a hidden clause in the contract. (As a contract worker myself, I'm particularly sensitive to this.) And the second time, when she rigged the Quidditch try-outs. McLaggan may have been a jerk, but he won the keeper position fair and square; and I think it was both unsporting and unethical of Miss Granger to use magic to take it away from him.
Laura
Chemyst - Aug 29, 2006 4:31 am (#1982 of 2486)
Hermione was being stupid in my opinion if she actually thought that contract would be a deterrent.
Well, if you phrase it THAT way! ...then, of course, I'll agree.
I don't think the jinx was ever intended as a deterrent. Anyone who signed it was under an honor code. Your own honor would be the deterrent; a "My word is my bond," situation. For a jinx to be a deterrent, they would have to know about it.
The jinx, as I see it, was not intended to prevent anyone from telling, but to protect the other members by exposing the violator(s). Because the DA had immediate, conclusive proof of who was responsible for telling Umbridge, there was no infighting, no false accusations, no unwarranted casting of aspersions, and not even much additional call to avenge. Now once enacted, the jinx did have some deterrent effect which kept Marianne from spilling additional information, but I do not believe that was the primary purpose for Hermione's use of it. I think it was a test of whom they could trust.
Hmmm... I wonder if Dumbledore used a similar jinx on Snape's teaching contract? Maybe that is why he trusts him! Snape's hair is always greasy; and were we to ever see it clean...
Mrs Brisbee - Aug 29, 2006 6:32 am (#1983 of 2486)
Hmmm... I wonder if Dumbledore used a similar jinx on Snape's teaching contract? Maybe that is why he trusts him! Snape's hair is always greasy; and were we to ever see it clean... --Chemyst
ROFL!
I really like Hermione, but twice in the series I felt ashamed of her. Once, when she put a hidden clause in the contract. (As a contract worker myself, I'm particularly sensitive to this.) And the second time, when she rigged the Quidditch try-outs. McLaggan may have been a jerk, but he won the keeper position fair and square; and I think it was both unsporting and unethical of Miss Granger to use magic to take it away from him. --Laura W.
I tend to view Hermione's contract jinx as a necessity under the circumstances, because she had a grasp of how dangerous what they were doing was actually going to be, but I'm also uncomfortable with the hidden clause. I'd definitely think twice in the future about signing anything given to me by Miss Granger, even something like a membership list for SPEW.
Although I don't think McClaggen earned the Keeper position (he and Ron were doing about the same, but even so McClaggen is not a team player and therefore is wrong for a team sport), what Hermione did there was very wrong, and really surprised me!
wynnleaf - Aug 29, 2006 7:07 am (#1984 of 2486)
Since Vulture and rambkowalczyk posted their comments from the Snape thread over here, I thought I'd answer the Hermione parts here also.
Vulture spent a good deal of space justifying the various instances that I had listed as Hermione being "unkind." Well, I wasn't endeavoring to comment on the fairness or unfairness of Hermione's actions, simply the kindness aspect. After all, the comment I was responding to was that Hermione was more "kind" to her enemies than Snape -- not that she was particularly fair or unfair.
rambkowalczyk commented on examples I gave of her unkindness.
As regards Marietta. Even though the jinx was not directed originally at anyone in particular, it would be fair to say that the jinx was ultimately directed at whoever broke the DA contract -- therefore, such a person could be considered a kind of "enemy" to the DA. Hermione put a hidden, possibly permanent jinx on anyone who broke the contract. That's an example of being "unkind" to one's enemy -- even if Hermione didn't know who the enemy might be, and even if it was fair. I don't think it was fair, but that's hardly the question at the moment.
Regarding drugging Goyle and Crabb in COS. HRH tended to see them as the "enemy," which is why they even suspected Draco in the first place (erroneously and with practically zero evidence). Anyway, Crabb and Goyle had absolutely nothing to do with the Chamber of Secrets and HRH had absolutely no evidence that they did. Hermione's decision to drug Crabb and Goyle and impersonate them could be construed as "unkind," because it was completely unjustified, put them at a certain risk, robbed them of their freedom temporarily, and robbed their "personhood" (sort of) even if they didn't know it. They can be called enemies, and she was unkind.
Hermione also plotted to "rob" Millicent (that's what I consider it to take her hair and transform into her likeness and impersonate her). There was no evidence to back up the decision to do this to Millicent. Hermione just thought it was a useful thing to do in order to get to Draco. This was unkind to Millicent, who didn't deserve it.
I think we (rambkowalczyk and I) on her unkindness to Rita, McLaggen, and Ron (in HBP). The point isn't whether she was justified, but whether she was kind to them when they were acting awfully to her -- and no she wasn't.
The following are examples rambkowalczyk gave of Hermione's kindness to enemies.
She was concerned about Montague when he left school after being tossed in the Vanishing cabinet. She thought she should tell how he got there.
She was concerned for Draco after Moody turned him into a ferret.
She defended not only Snape but also Lockhart.
I'm not quoting the examples of Hermione's kindness toward Neville or the kids that Fred and George are taking advantage of. They were not her enemies. I never said that Hermione wasn't kind at all, but that she was not particularly kind to her enemies.
While I agree that there's a certain kindness in her words, they are only words. She may have feelings of sympathy for Montague and Draco, and she voices her concern. But when it comes to actual actions I don't see Hermione actually acting in a kind way toward an enemy. As the saying goes "talk is cheap." In actual actions, Hermione is not at all kind to her enemies.
As regards Snape, I commented on him on the Snape thread.
Vulture - Aug 29, 2006 10:09 am (#1985 of 2486)
Very rushed post, as I'm on short library time just now !!
I agree with much of rambkowalczyk's post #1979, apart from the parts about Hermione in Book 6 _ I have to think about those a bit, but off the top of my head, my reaction would be that I wasn't that into Book 6 in general, anyway (as ye are no doubt sick of hearing !!)
On Die Z's post #1980 and Laura W's #1981 _ well, I know that my views on Marietta (see #1978) are fairly emphatic, almost militant. I understand how ye feel about contracts and hidden clauses _ all I would say is that they were in a war situation, and I have certain views on treachery in war: I know they're not everyone's. Hermione did stress at the beginning that if you joined the D.A. you were agreeing not to divulge its secrets. Secret resistance organisations in World War 2 didn't spell out their punishments for betrayal either _ it was understood that betrayal was wrong. So I think (this is just my opinion) that our disagreement focusses on Marietta (and her friends) being sixteen _ would I be right ?
In reply to wynnleaf's post #1984 _ yes, I didn't feel any great disagreement with you about her "kindness" but nevertheless felt her fairness worth discussing. Me and keyboards _ it's an addiction !!
Being logged out _ cheers for now !!
Hoot Owl - Aug 29, 2006 10:14 am (#1986 of 2486)
The "SNEAK" jinx was not necessarily meant as a deterrent or a punishment, it was an indicator that the secrecy of the contract was broken! The D. A. would know when someone had talked. The "sneak" could not come back to the meetings and gather more evidence.
Hermione wasn't too fussed about the consequences to the informant.
Ron and McClaggen probably would have tied. Harry could have done another round or chosen on the basis of experience and compatablity. So she made it easier for both her friends by cheating. Was that kindness or selfishness ?
All is fair in love and war.
Steve Newton - Aug 29, 2006 10:48 am (#1987 of 2486)
Harry calls the DA a rebellion(chapter 17 OOTP). A rebellion pretty much makes it own rules. And Marietta joined of her own free will. And was part of the unanimous vote making Harry the leader. I think Hermione's jinx, at one point Umbridge calls it a hex, was a minimum, and necessary, protection for the group.
Choices - Aug 29, 2006 5:44 pm (#1988 of 2486)
I don't understand this bit about Hermione not being kind to her enemies. Isn't that the point of having enemies? They are the people to whom you don't have to be kind. Come on, what do you do....shoot them and then offer them a bandaid? Sometimes you can take kindness to the extreme.
Chemyst - Aug 29, 2006 6:33 pm (#1989 of 2486)
Isn't that the point of having enemies?
One would think so, yes.
Ludicrous Patents Office - Aug 29, 2006 8:14 pm (#1990 of 2486)
HBP p. 314 Scholastic Hardbound "Harry was left to ponder in silence the depths to which girls would sink to get revenge." Hermione operates just like a teen age girl. It is not always pretty. Hermione is just as capable of being unkind as anyone.
One thing Snape and Hermione have in common they are very intelligent. Hermione has a sense of fairness though. I don't think Snape ever has. Hermione has always been loved. LPO
Die Zimtzicke - Aug 29, 2006 8:33 pm (#1991 of 2486)
If someone broke the contract, the whole DA would be in deep...well, you know what I mean, so at that point, who broke it wouldn't have helped much. Obviously to me the only one who didn't get expelled would be the one who broke it.
If one has dealt a great deal with contracts, it appears that they have more sympathy to Marietta. Is that a fair resume of the situation?
Meoshimo - Aug 29, 2006 11:20 pm (#1992 of 2486)
Hoot Owl-
I don't think it was kindness or selfishness; I think it as immoral. I was actually surprised that Hermione cheated to get Ron on the team. Whether it's for yourself or a friend, cheating is still wrong. And then she actually is angry at Harry for seemingly putting Felix Felicis in Ron's drink
Then again, she is a teenager and liable to make errors in judgement. I think she did it out of affection for Ron but it still doesn't excuse it. Steve-
Do you mean protection for the group as a deterent to snitching? If so, then I desagree. If she meant it to prevent people from betraying the group, then why didn't she tell them they had just signed an enchanted parchment? It would be along the lines of a shop posting signs telling customers that they're on camera so they'd better not steal stuff. The fact that Hermione didn't tell DA members she had bewitched the parchment leads me to believe that she did it so they (Dumbledore's Army) would know who the snitch was and the traitor would be shamed by being exposed.
Honour - Aug 30, 2006 2:09 am (#1993 of 2486)
I would think that in the magical world contracts work differently to those in our world. For example, the vow Severus took with Narcissa, was not only a promise to perform certain deeds, Bella bound them with magic physically, and I think to some extent spiritually, (not sure if this is the right word). Their words were not just a bunch of empty words but a vow!, and we have found (via Ron) that if the vow is not fulfilled payment is death. In our world it is much different (depending on who you sign your contract with!
. Apart from Harry, I would think that the DA members knew that there would be some recourse with signing a contract, especially a contract written by a witch, signed by other witches and wizards, in the magical world. Sometimes we posters, forget that these characters exist in another world, which actually runs on quite a different tangent to that of our own.
wynnleaf - Aug 30, 2006 3:33 am (#1994 of 2486)
Apart from Harry, I would think that the DA members knew that there would be some recourse with signing a contract, especially a contract written by a witch, signed by other witches and wizards, in the magical world.
Then why was Ron surprised by what Hermione did? Ron's a pureblood. According to this theory, he should have known she'd put in a hidden clause, but he didn't.
On the unbreakable vow, apparently that's part of such a thing -- that's why it's called "unbreakable." Even Fred and George knew at age 7 what an unbreakable vow was. The DA contract wasn't called the "unbreakable contract." Was it called anything? I thought it was just a "sign your name to the list if you want to join and don't tell anyone" kind of thing. Did any of the students even call it a contract?
The clause was hidden. We have no evidence that signing your name on the sign-up list to a school club constitutes some sort of binding magical contract in the magical world.
On the "kindness to enemies" thing, I certainly agree that in many of the instances I mentioned, there was no reason for Hermione to be kind. I don't necessarily fault her for all of those instances. I simply wanted to respond to the assertion, made on the Snape thread, that Hermione was a different kind of person from Snape because she was "kind to her enemies," and he was not. That assertion bothered me because Hermione might be nicer in general than Snape, but that doesn't mean she was in any way unusually kind. She's kind to kids that are her friends, but not her enemies. Anyway, to back up my disagreement with the statement that Hermione was "kind to her enemies," I had to list what she actually did to her enemies, even when I agreed with her actions.
cindysuewho45 - Aug 30, 2006 3:46 am (#1995 of 2486)
Hi all, I see what you are saying about Hermione wanting to protect the DA, but if that was the case then she would have been better off to make the jinx so that if a person went to tell, they would forget everything. If that is even a possibility. What she did was pure and simple vengeance. Not that the kid did not have it coming, she did! But what she did, did not get anyone killed. And I think that she still has scars from it. After this amount of time has gone by, I would hope that Hermione will clear it all up for her. Forgive her, but never trust her again.
rambkowalczyk - Aug 30, 2006 5:59 am (#1996 of 2486)
I don't understand this bit about Hermione not being kind to her enemies. Isn't that the point of having enemies? They are the people to whom you don't have to be kind. Choices
I think this will be significant in book 7. JKR has all along said or implied that love is the key. We see many examples of sacrificial love and cases where fear ruled instead of love (Pettigrew's betrayal). Lily died for her son, Dumbledore not only died for the "cause" but for Snape and Draco and indirectly the Malfoy family.
It is clear that in book 7, Harry has some confrontation with Snape. Book 6 makes it obvious that Harry is magically weaker than Snape so he can't get revenge the usual way. I believe the only way he can get stronger is for him to forgive Snape for giving the prophecy to Voldemort and for Harry to also forgive him for killing Dumbledore.
There have been alot of comments on how the major characters were vindictive, petty, and just taking the easy way out. Hermione is a good example: her actions with Ron when he dates Lavender, hexing McLaggin to help Ron get on the Quidditch team.
Also there is the scene where Harry notices Marietta and has a smug feeling of satisfaction. (May be exaggerating Harry's emotion, but let's agree he never questioned the duration of her hex as being unfair).
I think these incidences were deliberately put in because the characters are going to change for the better in book 7.
Wynnleaf has said that Hermione being kind to her enemies really isn't true because it is more talk than action. Very true. Up until now I supposed what I have seen is Hermione's potential to be kind. She could be like Peter (who disregarded his potential for bravery and doing the right thing) and become more vindictive to her enemies by using the party line and say they deserve it.
I think the only way the trio's magic will become stronger is if they forgive, if they show true kindness to their enemies. It is the greatest risk, but will reap the greatest rewards.
wynnleaf - Aug 30, 2006 6:29 am (#1997 of 2486)
rambkowalczyk, you said:
I think this will be significant in book 7. JKR has all along said or implied that love is the key. We see many examples of sacrificial love and cases where fear ruled instead of love (Pettigrew's betrayal). Lily died for her son, Dumbledore not only died for the "cause" but for Snape and Draco and indirectly the Malfoy family.
I completely agree with this! I don't think JKR is going in a direction where the "good guys" triumph because they're stronger. I think she wants to show the good guys triumphing over evil because they are willing to do good things. Not to be too simplistic. But what I mean is that the good guys have to rely on the things that make them good -- love, fairness, and forgiveness. In that way, their ultimate triumph has meaning. If the good guys are "good" just because they have generally pleasant demeanors (mostly), and are moderately fair to their friends, but care less about their enemies, then what does that show? If they triumph simply because they outsmart LV, destroying the horcruxes without his knowledge, and then kill him with some powerful curse -- what has that shown us? The good guys are better because they're smarter and more powerful?
I'm reminded of the "Once and Future King" point that might doesn't make right, right makes might.
I don't see how JKR could have been more clear about love being the key. Over and over and over we hear that LV's first downfall came about because of Lily's love. Over and over we hear that Harry's great power is his ability to love.
Loving lovable people is not that hard. It's mercy to enemies -- like what Harry showed to Pettigrew -- forgiveness, fairness to all rather than just one's friends, and love that will make the "good guys" really good, not being cunning about searching for horcruxes and firing off powerful curses.
Steve Newton - Aug 30, 2006 7:54 am (#1998 of 2486)
I don't want to appear cynical but, to me, "I'm reminded of the "Once and Future King" point that might doesn't make right, right makes might." both say that might makes right.
Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 30, 2006 9:20 am (#1999 of 2486)
I had an interesting thought, in HBP Chapter chapter twenty-two Slughorn after becoming drunk with Hagrid, Professor Slughorn calls Harry by the name Parry Otter. This name combination is intriguing because of the question it raises.
According Merriam-Webster's online dictionary, the word parry has the following meanings:
Main Entry: par•ry Pronunciation: 'per-E, 'pa-rE Function: verb Inflected Form(s): par•ried; par•ry•ing Etymology: probably from French parez, imperative of parer to parry, from Old Occitan parar, from Latin parare to prepare -- more at PARE intransitive verb 1 : to ward off a weapon or blow 2 : to evade or turn aside something transitive verb 1 : to ward off (as a blow) 2 : to evade especially by an adroit answer <parried the question> - parry noun. ([You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] accessed August 30, 2006.)
In Order of the Phoenix chapter twenty-seven the text indicates that Hermione's patronus takes the form of an otter.
Could Slughorn's statement being a foreshadowing of the following possibilities?
Harry in some way have to physically separate himself from Hermione?
Harry will in book seven deflect questions posed by Hermione?
Under the influence of the Imperius Curse Hermione will attempt to injure Harry forcing Harry to counter the blow?
Could a scenario similar to the scene in which Harry offer the use of his blood to gain entrance to the Cave occur again book seven between Hermione and Harry?
rambkowalczyk - Aug 30, 2006 9:54 am (#2000 of 2486)
At the end of book 6, Harry concludes that Draco would not have killed Dumbledore. Would Hermione agree with him or would she think once a git always git. In an instant like this Harry might have to separate himself from Hermione's opinions.
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Die Zimtzicke - Aug 30, 2006 11:41 am (#2001 of 2486)
Harry already has seperated himself from Hermione's opinion, thank God! He knew she was going about things wrong with the house elves. And he could see that for someone who trumpets respect for other magical creatures, she sure screwed up with the centaurs. Harry lost a lot of faith in Hermione's judgement in OotP, and I see no evidence he's gotten it back. He just liked what happened to Marietta because it benefitted him directly.
Chemyst - Aug 30, 2006 12:28 pm (#2002 of 2486)
...after becoming drunk with Hagrid, Professor Slughorn calls Harry by the name Parry Otter. This name combination is intriguing because of the question it raises. – Nathan
That Otter jumped right out at me when I read that! But the Parry evaded me. (I'm sorry. I'll be serious now.) I think "Parry Otter" was a befitting play on words that gives us more clues about character than it does clues to plot points. Slughorn becomes a happy/philosophical drunk and not a mean/nasty drunk. He is the good slytherin.
I would like to see Hermione live up to the playfulness of her otter patronus. We see little glimpses every now and then, but it is an unusual contrast to her over-all gravity.
Meoshimo - Aug 30, 2006 3:32 pm (#2003 of 2486)
Steve-
I think you're missing the subtlety of the statement "Might doesn't make right; right makes might". The second part means that doing the right thing and sticking to your good morals is what makes you strong, as opposed to using strength in arms or cunning to overpower your enemies.
Die Zimtzicke-
It just goes to show that book smarts doesn't equal street smarts!
Ludicrous Patents Office - Aug 30, 2006 7:34 pm (#2004 of 2486)
I think these incidences were deliberately put in because the characters are going to change for the better in book 7. Rambkowalczyk
I agree. Look at how James changed. Harry was crushed when he saw his 15 year old father being a jerk. Everyone who knew James, with the exception of Snape, said he grew out of that. James was highly respected.
In some ways I was glad to see Hermione become emotional in HBP. It is part of the maturing process. I think basically she is a good person.
Nathan that does bring up some interesting thoughts. I think Patronus' are going to be important in the next book. LPO
Steve Newton - Aug 30, 2006 7:37 pm (#2005 of 2486)
Meoshimo, I think that I got the point. Might wins.
TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 30, 2006 8:11 pm (#2006 of 2486)
Since Hermione is the only one of the trio that knows the 12 uses of dragons blood are this is bound to come up. Dumbledore discovered them as stated on the chocolate frog card that was important to Dumbledore not to be taken off of. I wonder what triggers her memory of this and where JKR will go with that. Care to speculate?
... toddles off to ponder more about those chocolate frog cards and dragons blood...
Laura W - Aug 31, 2006 12:40 am (#2007 of 2486)
Hoot Owl wrote, "Ron and McClaggen probably would have tied."
Yes, and that's the point. By denying Cormac his last shot - through the use of sneaky magic -, Hermoine robbed him of the chance to win or lose fair and square. Since they both would have saved five, the right thing would have been for Harry to have a run-off between them. I assume he would have done this had Hermoine not interfered (or, as Jo wrote it, provided a "helping hand").
I can just imagine how incensed we would all be if someone - a Slytherin or whoever - had put the Confundus Curse on Ron, causing him to lose the coveted spot on the team! Unethical behavior is wrong, no matter who uses it. Like Cedric Diggory, I value fair play very highly.
Laura
Eponine - Aug 31, 2006 5:58 am (#2008 of 2486)
It's funny, because in the books, Hermione's questionable behavior can often be seen as justifiable. (I'm not saying that makes it okay, though) For example, confounding McClaggan saved the team a lot of difficulties if he had gotten the spot instead of Ron, as evidenced by his behavior when he was playing. That doesn't make it right for her to have done it, but it could be seen as having a positive outcome.
She's often guilty of questionable moral behavior, but in her mind (and usually in the text as well) it's justified because of the outcome. I don't know if it will ever come back to bite her, but I kind of doubt it.
Vulture - Aug 31, 2006 6:37 am (#2009 of 2486)
Edited Aug 31, 2006 7:30 am
The "SNEAK" jinx was not necessarily meant as a deterrent or a punishment, it was an indicator that the secrecy of the contract was broken! The D. A. would know when someone had talked. The "sneak" could not come back to the meetings and gather more evidence. (Hoot Owl - Aug 29, 2006 10:14 am (#1986))
Yes, I had overlooked that _ good point.
I got focussed on the issue of punishment because of my views on the morality of what Marietta did. Having read people's reactions, it occurs to me that here again we have another example of something Book 5 does briefly, but well _ the Sneak Jinx is discussed by Cho and Harry, and (broadly speaking) I agree with Harry.
I must say, though, that I never expected JKR to make the Sneak Jinx last much beyond Book 5. I thought it would either wear off, or else that JKR would have a little sub-plot about how Marietta gets rid of it by redeeming herself. Given Cho's "fierce" reaction (JKR seems to like using that word with Cho), it'd be natural that Hermione would get a lot of hassle in Sixth Year from Ravenclaw friends of Marietta wanting a cure _ but there's no sign of that. One would also expect that Marietta might go to Dumbledore or senior wizards for a cure if no-one else could do it _ but that doesn't happen either.
Ron and McClaggen probably would have tied. Harry could have done another round or chosen on the basis of experience and compatablity. So she made it easier for both her friends by cheating. Was that kindness or selfishness ? Hoot Owl - Aug 29, 2006 10:14 am (#1986))
Well, while not taking back what I said about McLaggen in #1978, I wouldn't attempt to evade the fact that Hermione cheated for Ron's sake. But I don't think we should get too hot and bothered over it _ JKR didn't intend us to take it too seriously. Harry had a lot of fun at Hermione's expense about her breaking rules, and I think that's the right way to look at it.
Steve Newton _ thanks for your post #1987. Spot on.
Come on, what do you do....shoot them and then offer them a bandaid? (Choices - Aug 29, 2006 5:44 pm (#1988))
I know what you mean, but it's a sign of the times we live in. At the risk of being irrelevant _ can you imagine, during the Battle Of Stalingrad in WW2, the Wehrmacht ringing up Russian locals and saying "Good morning. This is the German Army. In one hour we will blow up your house. Have a nice day". Yet this happened in a recent war.
Again, imagine if, during Stalingrad, neutral international organisations said to the SS: "Look, we're not trying to stop you exterminating Russian civilians, but we'd like you to let us deliver food to them while you're doing it". Yet this happened in a war during the 1990s.
(Sorry, Editor _ don't want to drag in politics (which is why I've not named those two recent wars.)
If one has dealt a great deal with contracts, it appears that they have more sympathy to Marietta. Is that a fair resume of the situation? (Die Zimtzicke - Aug 29, 2006 8:33 pm (#1991))
I wonder. Maybe we should take a poll. As ye know, I've little sympathy for her, and I've no experience with contracts (apart from banks and credit cards always doing better out of them than me !!). Votes, people ?
By the way, my own opinion is that you can't really compare magical contracts in the JKR world to our own understanding of "contracts" _ they're a different sort of animal. (For example, portraits in Hogwarts have a whole different meaning and role than portraits in our world's galleries.)
I don't think it was kindness or selfishness; I think it as immoral. I was actually surprised that Hermione cheated to get Ron on the team. Whether it's for yourself or a friend, cheating is still wrong. And then she actually is angry at Harry for seemingly putting Felix Felicis in Ron's drink (Meoshimo - Aug 29, 2006 11:20 pm (#1992))
Well, see my reply to Hoot Owl, above, on her cheating. As regards Felix Felicis in Ron's drink, though, I don't regard Hermione as inconsistent or hypocritical in her reaction to it _ I know it's not apparent at first sight, but there is a distinction:
Yes, cheating to get Ron on the team was wrong (and I've gone into it above), but to put Felix Felicis in Ron's drink to help his performance would be a far greater wrong. The first wrong only affects Ron and McLaggen _ at worst, it might mean Gryffindor not having quite the best team they could have had. But Felix Felicis would mean Gryffindor winning unfairly. Notice that Harry, in fact, agrees with Hermione on Felix Felicis _ he knows the law, he didn't really put it in, and when Hermione has a go at him, he does not quote her own act of cheating against her.
On the unbreakable vow, apparently that's part of such a thing -- that's why it's called "unbreakable." Even Fred and George knew at age 7 what an unbreakable vow was. The DA contract wasn't called the "unbreakable contract." Was it called anything? I thought it was just a "sign your name to the list if you want to join and don't tell anyone" kind of thing. Did any of the students even call it a contract? (wynnleaf - Aug 30, 2006 3:33 am (#1994))
My memory is hazy on the exact words, but when they were forming the D.A., they were discussing all about Umbridge, the need for proper Defence classes, etc., and then Hermione said something, I can't remember what, but I think it was about how Umbridge would react to what they were doing. I remember her concluding statement: something like "So if you sign this, you're agreeing not to tell Umbridge or anyone about what we're doing".
I also remember the others' immediate reactions. Eddie Macmillan and his friends were quite disturbed and had to be talked around before signing. There was a fair bit of discussion (including stuff about Prefects keeping secrets from authorities). During all this time, Marietta said not one word, but she certainly could not pretend not to have known what she was getting into. No, she wasn't told about any punishment, but she was told what the right thing to do was _ her job was either to do it or not to join. Remember how much value Dumbledore puts on choices ? She chose to join, and she chose to become a traitor.
(Continued in next post .........)
Vulture - Aug 31, 2006 6:40 am (#2010 of 2486)
Edited Aug 31, 2006 7:33 am
(..... continued from last post)
If she meant it to prevent people from betraying the group, then why didn't she tell them they had just signed an enchanted parchment? It would be along the lines of a shop posting signs telling customers that they're on camera so they'd better not steal stuff. (Meoshimo - Aug 29, 2006 11:20 pm (#1992))
I disagree. To follow your analogy _ why on earth should a shop tell people that they're on camera ? People are not supposed to steal, full stop. Whether there is anything to stop them doing it is irrelevant.
Let's get straight exactly what Marietta did:
(1) She betrayed her friends _ and if she didn't really regard them as friends, she had still made to them a solemn promise of loyalty.
(2) She betrayed her own best friend _ and we see afterwards just how decent and loyal a friend Cho is.
(3) She betrayed them into the hands of Umbridge, whose methods include slicing open students' skin: by the way, we know that Umbridge did this to others than Harry (who had kept quiet), so I doubt very much if Marietta had no idea what Umbridge was like.
(4) She did not sneak to Flitwick (her Head Of House), to any of Hogwarts's normal teachers, or to Dumbledore, the Headmaster. She sneaked to the one person whose attempt to (in effect) destroy Hogwarts was precisely the whole basis of the D.A. (so I'd be surprised if she hadn't heard plenty of discussion of Umbridge's regime).
(5) If Marietta had succeeded (i.e. if it had not been for Dumbledore), Harry and his friends would have been expelled, and we can be sure that Fudge and Umbridge would have plastered it all over the "Daily Prophet" (due to the Ministry's fear of Dumbledore's and Harry's evidence about Voldemort). Voldemort would have read and noted all the D.A.'s names as people who, unlike the Ministry, had not been fooled about his return. And there they would be _ out in the open, outside the protection of Hogwarts, with no other protection due to the Ministry's blindness. The D.A. had been set up precisely because of Voldemort's return and had discussed it _ so Marietta knew what betraying her friends would mean.
I've been thinking about a previous comment _ I forget whose, sorry _ that Marietta shouldn't suffer forever for what she did at the age of 16. Now, I've made clear that I have no desire to see her suffer forever, but let me just point out that there are millions of people who suffer forever for their lives at 16 (or younger), and whose suffering our world seems able to live with, though it pretends not to approve. They're called victims _ the victims of bullies and sneaks. Punishment for bullies and sneaks is not only justice, but may actually be the kindest thing for them in the long run. (I've no patience with all the rubbish talked these days about bullies' sorrowful lives _ I never met a bully yet who didn't have a sob story when cornered. (Apologies if I sound hot under the collar !!)) Not that I classify Marietta as a bully, so maybe I'm in danger of irrelevance ...
One more thought _ if Pettigrew had run up against a Hermione-style punishment early on, he might never have become the despised and lethally treacherous Wormtail. Wouldn't that have been worth a few pimples, not least to him ?
What she did was pure and simple vengeance. Not that the kid did not have it coming, she did! (cindysuewho45 - Aug 30, 2006 3:46 am (#1995))
I disagree that it was vengeance, but yes, I expected it not to last forever. See my comments above and in the last post.
rambkowalczyk - On your post #1996, I see what you're saying, but I would say that forgiving your enemies does not mean not punishing them if they deserve _ and possibly, need _ it, or pretending that they are not so bad, when it is quite clear that they are. (By the way, that last phrase does not refer to Snape, because nothing about him is clear _ though Harry now thinks it is.) In my view, forgiving others means viewing and treating their bad actions as you should view and treat your own. In short, hate (and where appropriate, punish) the sin but not the sinner.
And he could see that for someone who trumpets respect for other magical creatures, she sure screwed up with the centaurs. (Die Zimtzicke - Aug 30, 2006 11:41 am (#2001))
What is this about the centaurs ? What incident does this refer to ?
Die Zimtzicke - Aug 31, 2006 8:36 am (#2011 of 2486)
The incident refers to Hermione expecting them to help her get rid of Umbridge, when they are so proud and testy, and yone who knew them well might be able to guess they would feel they were being used and not take it lying down.
As for the Quidditch, it wasn't Hermione's place to decide who was best for the team. Harry was the captain. It was up to him to handle the team and make any changes IF someone didn't work out. maybe if McClaggan had gotten in right away on his own merits, he would have toned down his urge to prove to everyone how great he was. We''ll never know. And I'm just not picking on Hermione here. I feel the same way about Ginny deciding someone was a prat for Harry because she deemed him too busy to do it himself. I just didn't see a lot of teamwork on that team, and I'm glad that Quiidditch is apparently going by the wayside.
wynnleaf - Aug 31, 2006 8:40 am (#2012 of 2486)
The incident refers to Hermione expecting them to help her get rid of Umbridge, when they are so proud and testy, and yone who knew them well might be able to guess they would feel they were being used and not take it lying down.
Die Zimtzicke, thanks for posting that. I, too, was wondering what the early comments about Hermione and centaurs were about.
There are a lot of actions of Hermione's that I seriously disagree with her on, but this is not one of them. While Hermione made a mistake in her approach to the centaurs, I don't think she should be faulted for something she did in a very stressful moment, when she was in dire need of someone to take care of Umbridge.
Chemyst - Aug 31, 2006 8:57 am (#2013 of 2486)
Vulture, why don't you start a new thread for 'Hermione's Contract Poll.' Run it the old-fashioned way that Liz did them. Phrase the question clearly, state how long you intend the poll to last, and then take the responsibility for tabulating all the answers. She often allowed open-ended answers that made a lot of different responses, so it may take some care in figuring out the results unless you make a standard "Other" option.
Weeny Owl - Aug 31, 2006 9:24 am (#2014 of 2486)
As for the Quidditch, it wasn't Hermione's place to decide who was best for the team. Harry was the captain. It was up to him to handle the team and make any changes IF someone didn't work out. maybe if McClaggan had gotten in right away on his own merits, he would have toned down his urge to prove to everyone how great he was. We''ll never know. And I'm just not picking on Hermione here. I feel the same way about Ginny deciding someone was a prat for Harry because she deemed him too busy to do it himself. I just didn't see a lot of teamwork on that team, and I'm glad that Quiidditch is apparently going by the wayside.
The thing about all of that is that I think some of us expect more from Harry and Company for a couple of reasons... one being that they're the "good guys," and two that we're seeing them from the point of view of our own experience and wisdom as opposed to what they really are... teens with raging hormones, and not just that, but with the addition of magic and the addition of being in a war.
There are quite a few TV shows with teens, and some portray teens better than others, but one that I feel is a good example of teenage girls is "8 Simple Rules."
Carrie is the brain, and in a lot of ways she reminds me of Hermione. Even though Carrie is the more responsible daughter, she still messes up.
That's what Hermione is doing... messing up the way a teen would. No matter how deep her fondness for rules may be, she isn't a mini-McGonagall but a teenage girl. She proved that from the first book when she took blame for the troll, and she's proven it time and time again, but some of that gets lost because she does harp about rules.
I don't see Hermione (or Ginny, for that matter) as being anything other than normal girls who are doing what is age-appropriate, even if it isn't always the best thing or the right thing. They may be book characters, but if they didn't mess up now and then, they wouldn't be at all realistic.
Vulture - Aug 31, 2006 9:41 am (#2015 of 2486)
Vulture, why don't you start a new thread for 'Hermione's Contract Poll.' Run it the old-fashioned way that Liz did them. Phrase the question clearly, state how long you intend the poll to last, and then take the responsibility for tabulating all the answers. She often allowed open-ended answers that made a lot of different responses, so it may take some care in figuring out the results unless you make a standard "Other" option. (Chemyst [/b]- Aug 31, 2006 8:57 am (#2013))
Good idea. Only problem is, my access to the Net is either (a) one (packed) hour a day in the library, or (b) a dodgy home-link that appears to be under the impression that WWW stands for "World .......... Wide ............. Wait .........". :-)
Honour - Sep 1, 2006 12:18 am (#2016 of 2486)
Wow! I've just read through 22 posts since I last posted : )
" -Then why was Ron surprised by what Hermione did?" - Wynnleaf
Ron maybe pureblood (although what relevance this has to do with Hermione's hexing the contract I have no idea?) but if he were at all surprised about what Hermione did it would probably have more to do with Hermione having the for-thought(Neither Ron nor Harry would have thought to do this) to hex the contract and thereby ensuing that the whistle blower is made known, and yes, Harry was proud of Hermione.
" - We have no evidence that signing your name on the sign-up list to a school club constitutes some sort of binding magical contract in the magical world" - Wynnleaf
Actually we do, this very contract we are discussing now, is canon evidence, and since JKR wrote it, it must be so? : ) The other binding magical contract I can think of other than the unbreakable vow is the entering of Harry's name into the Goblet of Fire. Harry may not have entered himself but he was still bound by the magical rules to take part in the competition. : )
cindysuewho45, I think using a memory charm would have had a worse outcome than a pimple hex, re: Gilderoy Lockhart? : )
Hoorah! The voices of reason, Vulture and Weeny Owl!
cindysuewho45 - Sep 1, 2006 2:53 am (#2017 of 2486)
Hi all, I was reading book 1 over again, and on page 125 & 126, Hermione is talking to Percy and says, "I do hope they start right away, there's so much to learn, I'm particularly interested in Transfiguration, you know, turning something into something else, of course, it's supposed to be very difficult-" Well I was thinking about how JKR has said that she put a lot of the plot for all the books in book 1. She had to rewrite book 1 over many times because of it. So I was thinking that maybe we will get to see Hermione doing some transfiguring of her own in book 7. I was thinking that maybe Hermione and Ginny could get up to something, by transfiguring themselves, to look into something. ????????
Laura W - Sep 1, 2006 3:28 am (#2018 of 2486)
"HBP p. 314 Scholastic Hardbound "Harry was left to ponder in silence the depths to which girls would sink to get revenge." Hermione operates just like a teen age girl. It is not always pretty." (Ludicrous Patents Office)
Looking at your statement, LPO, gives me a different perspective. One that I can accept. I like Hermoine so much that I can picture her years down the road remembering how, at the age of 17, she rigged the tryouts so that Ron would win and feeling ashamed of herself. Rather like the adult Lupin realizes that, at age 15, he was remiss and even wrong to let Sirius and James do what they did to Severus in "Snape's Worst Memory."
Whew, I feel better now.
Laura
Die Zimtzicke - Sep 1, 2006 6:31 am (#2019 of 2486)
Well, Hermione isn't ashamed about disfiguring a fellow teenager for life, and now that Marietta has left school, nothing may ever be done about that. You can't excuse everything by saying these are kids. Kids can be sentenced as adults for crimes, and once you start doing things like this, it's a slippery slope.
If we want/expect them to be better than other kids, what's wrong with that? We are depending on them to win the war, aren't we? They aren't ordinary teenagers.
Steve Newton - Sep 1, 2006 8:08 am (#2020 of 2486)
Not to bring up things better said elsewhere but we don't know if the 'Sneak' will be there for life. Hermione let of the traitor easy. Even I could come up with dozens of worse things that she could have done.
wynnleaf - Sep 1, 2006 8:31 am (#2021 of 2486)
Honour,
I think you misunderstood me. I meant that Ron had no knowledge that the contract he signed was a binding magical agreement, until Hermione told him after the fact. Therefore, I think we can assume that it was not a "given" that any school list for a club that you happened to sign was automatically a binding magical contract. If it were, Ron would have assumed the same about this one.
Based on that, I think it's reasonable to say that the rest of the students signing the contract would have had no expectation that there would be a binding magical element to their signatures on the page.
I mentioned that because on the Marietta thread, many posters felt that the students would just somehow know that if they signed their names, they'd be entering a binding magical agreement.
Ron didn't know it, therefore we have no reason to think anyone else should have known it.
Chemyst - Sep 1, 2006 2:07 pm (#2022 of 2486)
Ron didn't know it, therefore we have no reason to think anyone else should have known it.
From the text, chapter 16, In the Hog's Head
Hermione took the parchment back and slipped it carefully into her bag. There was an odd feeling in the group now. It was as though they had just signed some kind of contract.
Fred is the first to get up and the others leave in twos and threes. The next we hear of Ron is
"Well, I think that went quite well," said Hermione happily as she, Harry and Ron walked out of the Hog's Head into the bright sunlight a few minutes later, Harry, and Ron still clutching their bottles of butterbeer.
"That Zacharias bloke's a wart, " said Ron who was glowering after the figure of Smith just discernable in the distance.
At this point, Ron is accustomed to and trusts Hermione well enough he is not going to question anything she does too closely. He is not nearly as guarded about what he signed as the non-Gryffindors were, especially when he is sipping butterbeer and preoccupied with scowling and grumbling about Zacharias. I don't think Ron's reaction is a good gauge of what a typical Ravenclaw witch would anticipate or expect; particularly since he was able to shake off the "odd feeling in the group" and replace it with anger so easily.
Ron would have been one of the last people to suspect Hermione, pureblood or otherwise. And that is why he'd be surprised and impressed that she had the foresight to anticipate potential problems and include a jinx.
wynnleaf - Sep 1, 2006 3:17 pm (#2023 of 2486)
Ron's reaction may be a good gauge, an excellent gaube, a terrible gauge, or whatever anyone thinks -- but it is the only one we've got if we're going to look at canon. The only student we hear from about whether or not that magically binding contract had any magic attached to it is Ron and as a pureblood he'd be expected to know more than muggleborns.
Sure everyone felt they'd signed a contract. We don't have any evidence that they thought they'd signed anything with a hex or jinx attached to it, or any other magical consequences. Speculation is fine of course -- but to use it as justification for Hermione's action -- as though we know that Marietta should have expected such a magically binding feature, is pure guesswork, without canon support.
In other words, speculation is fine. But the only definite evidence we have about anyone's expectations regarding a magical consequence to the contract is Ron's, and he didn't expect it.
Honour - Sep 1, 2006 3:59 pm (#2024 of 2486)
As you and I are not JKR all we have is speculation about whether or not magical contracts have an extra inbuilt hex or charm. It seems that as just being within the magical world one must surely keep all, and I mean all options open.
I am not justifying Hermione's action in this whole episode, rather, I am accepting that it is part of the story line that JKR has written. Personally I have issues with alot of the sub-plots in this book, i.e. that Dumbledore in all his wisdom would leave a child to be bought up with an abusive family, that Harry, Ron and Hermione have knowledge that a teacher is physically torturing students and they do not tell, that Dumbledore pressurizes Harry to get information from Sluggy which results in Sluggy desecrating the dead remains of a much loved pet and these are but a few that really stick in my craw.
The reality of the DA contract is, that JKR wrote it so and this is how it has happened. The hex was a safety mechanism, if the singatories were at all honourable then they had no need to worry, if they were not well ... Marietta face. What I personally have learnt in reading this story is that Trust is a comodity that was and is, taken for granted re: Peter Pettigrew, resulting in little orphan Harry, and Dumbledore/Severus. Pimples are the least of consequences to pay when the actions of untrustworthy people who pretend to be your friends result in deaths...
I see you constantly offer up Ron as evidence to support your theory, not to be too rude, but you know Ron isn't exactly the sharpest knife in the drawer, but he does trust Harry and Hermione, for better or for worse, let's hope history doesn't repeat itself ... in book 7.
Die Zimtzicke - Sep 1, 2006 4:38 pm (#2025 of 2486)
I don't know how Hermione can take the charm OFF now, unless they run into Marietta horcrux hunting. Marietta has left school, and so has Cho. They don't have graduations in Britain until after university, so it seems that Hogwarts does not have them either, but whatever it is they do, they've done it.
Meoshimo - Sep 1, 2006 4:39 pm (#2026 of 2486)
Perhaps Marietta will have a short stay in St. Mungo's. They seem pretty good at countering magical damage.
Choices - Sep 1, 2006 5:53 pm (#2027 of 2486)
Honour - "Personally I have issues with alot of the sub-plots in this book, i.e. that Dumbledore in all his wisdom would leave a child to be bought up with an abusive family, that Harry, Ron and Hermione have knowledge that a teacher is physically torturing students and they do not tell, that Dumbledore pressurizes Harry to get information from Sluggy which results in Sluggy desecrating the dead remains of a much loved pet and these are but a few that really stick in my craw."
While you are choking on those sub-plots, you could also worry about the old witch that tried to stuff two kids in her oven to eat them, or the girl who ate the poisoned apple, or the girl who moved in with seven little guys, or the girl who pricked her finger on the spinning wheel, or the girl with the wicked step-mother and sisters, etc. Gosh, isn't all that the heart and soul of kids stories? We grew up on those - are Harry Potter sub-plots really any worse?
Weeny Owl - Sep 1, 2006 8:39 pm (#2028 of 2486)
You can't excuse everything by saying these are kids. Kids can be sentenced as adults for crimes, and once you start doing things like this, it's a slippery slope.
It isn't an excuse, though... it's a fact. Whether or not kids can be sentenced as adults isn't the point. It's the action first, and teenagers usually aren't the best decision makers, hence the years when they come of age.
What Hermione's behavior has shown me is that she isn't a small adult, but a girl trying her best but occasionally slipping. That's normal behavior for someone her age.
Each thing she's done could have its basic Muggle equivalent, and I truly believe that is what JKR is trying to show. Hermione is above-average in schoolwork and following rules, but she is still a young girl who makes mistakes.
Vulture - Sep 1, 2006 8:52 pm (#2029 of 2486)
Honour - "Personally I have issues with alot of the sub-plots in this book, i.e. that Dumbledore in all his wisdom would leave a child to be bought up with an abusive family, that Harry, Ron and Hermione have knowledge that a teacher is physically torturing students and they do not tell, that Dumbledore pressurizes Harry to get information from Sluggy which results in Sluggy desecrating the dead remains of a much loved pet and these are but a few that really stick in my craw."
While you are choking on those sub-plots, you could also worry about the old witch that tried to stuff two kids in her oven to eat them, or the girl who ate the poisoned apple, or the girl who moved in with seven little guys, or the girl who pricked her finger on the spinning wheel, or the girl with the wicked step-mother and sisters, etc. Gosh, isn't all that the heart and soul of kids stories? We grew up on those - are Harry Potter sub-plots really any worse? (Choices [/b]- Sep 1, 2006 5:53 pm (#2027))
Hey, don't worry about those wimpy happy-ending ones _ try some Irish legends for size: Cuchulainn the "Hound Of Ulster" who, for all sorts of honourable reasons, (a) has to kill his best friend, (b)has to kill his son, (c) ignore his wife's advice, walk straight into a sorcerous trap he knew all about and get killed (very VERY slowly _ there's a statue of him in Dublin with a raven drinking his blood). Then there's Fionn and the Fianna: the biggest romance in Irish legend (Diarmuid and Grainne) ends with the good guy dying and the bad guy getting the girl. Oh, not forgetting the other big romance, Deirdre and the sons of Usna, where the bad guy again gets the girl, kills her lover AND his two brothers, and then Deirdre kills herself. Then there's the Chilldren Of Lir where an evil witch turns our heroes and heroine into swans and the whole thing is one long sob till they die.
Actually, they're great stories _ but you get my point. You better hope, though, that JKR hasn't spent too many holidays in Ireland before Book 7 !!
Honour - Sep 1, 2006 10:37 pm (#2030 of 2486)
Hey there Choices, I have no argument with you there My own culture is filled to the brim with legends of very similar nature to what has been described ... the point I was trying to make is that, I understand that Wynnleaf has issues surrounding whether the hex Hermione attached to the DA contract was underhanded, and in itself sneaky, and whether or not those signing did so with prior knowledge blah, blah, blah, because I too had issues about the instances I had mentioned, and even though I had issue with these instances doesn't mean that I do not enjoy the HP series, rather, that I accept them as part of the story. As my kids say, "build a bridge mum"... : )
Soul Search - Sep 2, 2006 7:33 am (#2031 of 2486)
Hermione's pimple spell was woefully inadequate.
Hermione conceived the DA, invited others to join, and assured protection if members would sign the contract. Yet, her spell on the contract provided no protection.
The DA was a dangerous activity. Umbridge was a dangerous adversary. She sent dementors to soul-suck Harry. She could have had aurors waiting outside the RoR door to haul everyone off to Azkaban and AK any that offered resistance.
Hermione should have used a spell that caused any traitor to drop dead on the spot. That would have saved the group. No, she uses a wimpy pimple spell. Woefully inadequate. Not at all what the situation demanded.
I hope she does better in the future.
wynnleaf - Sep 2, 2006 8:24 am (#2032 of 2486)
My own culture is filled to the brim with legends of very similar nature to what has been described ... the point I was trying to make is that, I understand that Wynnleaf has issues surrounding whether the hex Hermione attached to the DA contract was underhanded, and in itself sneaky, and whether or not those signing did so with prior knowledge blah, blah, blah, because I too had issues about the instances I had mentioned, and even though I had issue with these instances doesn't mean that I do not enjoy the HP series, rather, that I accept them as part of the story. As my kids say, "build a bridge mum"... : )
While it's perfectly fine that JKR use story elements that reflect our heritage from fairy and folk tales, her story is *not* such a tale -- the primary reason being that she is an individual writer creating a set story, rather than a story that is formed by a culture of oral story telling where the story gradually changes to fit the desires, attitudes, and culture of the people who create the story. Fairy tales and folk tales unfold through the retelling by many tellers, often in direct response to those who listen. In other words, it's a process of both teller and listener, who around the fire, offer and recieve input.
JKR writes from her particular objectives. So when she writes those problematic subplots, she is the only one accountable for them, rather than the fairy or folk tale where the subplots are born out of all involved -- tellers and listeners.
Additionally, while fairy tales and folk tales do have the "good guys" involved in some ethically questionable behavior, most of the ones you mentioned were the actions of the bad guys. I'm not particularly concerned that JKR writes the bad guys as doing awful things. I am sometimes concerned when she writes the good guys as doing unethical things, without any story element that reveals to the reader that it is unethical. There are places in HP where I feel that we're expected to consider the good guys actions acceptable just because they're on the right "side," when those same actions by the "bad" guys would be considered evidence of how bad they are.
As regards Hermione and the jinxed contract, I think that Hermione does numerous things that are pretty ethically questionable. The hidden contract jinx, drugging fellow students in order to impersonate them (for no excusable reason), stealing from a teacher's stores and encouraging one's friends to create an explosion in a potions room which injures other students, ruining McCormack's attempt to get into the Quidditch team in order to favor Ron, constantly helping students in class when a teacher has told her not to do so, trying to trick the house elves into a forced freedom that they adamently oppose, etc. I think the contract jinx is right in line with many other of Hermione's ideas. I often think Hermione's attitude is "I'm the smartest, therefore I know what's best for everyone." That is not a particularly unusual attitude, by the way. Thank goodness many people eventually grow out of it. Many do not.
Honour, I agree that Ron can be pretty clueless sometimes. But like I said, regarding whether anyone should have expected there to be magical binding elements to the contract, he is the only one we have as an example either way. Sure, JKR wrote Hermione as creating a magically binding contract. That wasn't the question I was arguing. Of course this was a magically binding contract. The question I was arguing was whether students would expect a school club contract to be magically binding. Ron didn't expect it and he was the only example we got one way or the other -- hey, except Marietta, who obviously didn't expect it either.
Hermione should have used a spell that caused any traitor to drop dead on the spot. That would have saved the group. No, she uses a wimpy pimple spell. Woefully inadequate. Not at all what the situation demanded.
Wow, Soul Search, are you kidding? Do you really think Hermione should have killed anyone breaking the contract? That's what it amounts to after all. If Hermione set a curse to kill whoever broke it, then she would have killed them.
Choices - Sep 2, 2006 9:51 am (#2033 of 2486)
LOL Soul Search - I like the way you think. LOL
Chemyst - Sep 2, 2006 12:06 pm (#2034 of 2486)
Hermione's pimple spell was woefully inadequate. Hermione conceived the DA, invited others to join, and assured protection if members would sign the contract. Yet, her spell on the contract provided no protection. – Soul Search
We all see the irony of this, right? She could't be expected to perform the perfect defense spell before the defense classes had started.
(PS The only "assured protection" I remember was that she wouldn't leave the list lying around; was there some other assurance?)
____________________________-
If Hermione set a curse to kill whoever broke it, then she would have killed them.
Every once in a while, I wish the forum rules against religious discussion were not so strict. This is one of those times because the extension of this kind of thinking is that God kills people; but I can't really explain it beyond that here. It was Marietta's personal choice that determined her outcome.
Catherine - Sep 2, 2006 12:25 pm (#2035 of 2486)
Well, Hermione isn't ashamed about disfiguring a fellow teenager for life, and now that Marietta has left school, nothing may ever be done about that. --Die Zimtzicke
How do you know this?
And again, I will reiterate my belief that Hermione did not injure Marietta.
Soul Search - Sep 2, 2006 4:21 pm (#2036 of 2486)
Chemyst,
She could't be expected to perform the perfect defense spell before the defense classes had started.
Good point. I guess we can excuse Hermione for being wimpy, just this once.
Marietta, however, should have thanked Hermione profusely for not making the consequences for a traitor more serious than just some pimples.
Choices - Sep 2, 2006 5:29 pm (#2037 of 2486)
I may be wrong, but in most countries don't they execute traitors? To borrow a line from Eddy Izzard, that's sort of a cake or death sort of question, isn't it. Or rather pimples or death.....pimples, please. I say she definitely got off easy. :-)
Meoshimo - Sep 2, 2006 5:31 pm (#2038 of 2486)
To you, pimples is no big deal, but to a girl in her mid-teens? And it's not just pimples, it actually spells SNEAK. She got off light, but I'd imagine she wouldn't think so.
Choices - Sep 2, 2006 5:40 pm (#2039 of 2486)
I certain hope she doesn't think so. I hope she thinks long and hard about what got her the pimples in the first place. Hopefully she learned her lesson and won't do it again. Oh, and I don't for one minute think the pimples are permanent - they will fade in time and maybe even quicker if Marietta acknowledges her treachery.
Solitaire - Sep 2, 2006 6:35 pm (#2040 of 2486)
What she did was pure and simple vengeance.
Vengeance is defined by Merriam-Webster Online as "punishment inflicted in retaliation for an injury or offense." In order for Hermione's actions to be considered vengeance, she would have had to cast the spell after the betrayal, and she would have cast it specifically on Marietta. She didn't. Hermione took no actions at all towards Marietta. She simply took the precaution of jinxing the parchment ahead of time, so that if someone did tell, the DA would know who it was ... period. If no one had violated the agreement not to tell, nothing would have happened to anyone. Unfortunately, Marietta did violate her promise not to tell about the DA. She alone activated the jinx.
I like Chemyst's description of Hermione's actions: ...she had the foresight to anticipate potential problems and include a jinx.
I do agree that, in HBP, Hermione allowed her personal feelings to influence her use of magic. I found it interesting that she took issue with 1) what she believes is Harry's use of Felix on Ron; 2) his use of Muffliato! which seems relatively harmless; and 3) his use of the HBP's potion "augmentations," when she herself used magic that most likely affected the outcome of the Quidditch try-outs. I also found it humorous that she exacted a bit of revenge on Ron for Lavender.
Hermione's spells and actions in HBP actually seem like things regular kids might do if they had magical powers. We have simply developed higher expectations for Hermione and Harry. I do find it interesting that Hermione doesn't seem that bothered by her own actions when she is so bugged by Harry's.
If Hermione set a curse to kill whoever broke it, then she would have killed them.
Well, technically the stool-pigeon would have killed herself. Once again, Chemyst has said it well: It was Marietta's personal choice that determined her outcome. After all, she didn't have to squeal. I know some have suggested that Marietta was given Veritaserum by Umbridge. If this was the case, however, why did she stop talking as soon as she saw the pimples pop out on her face? Wouldn't the Veritaserum have forced her to talk, regardless?
Solitaire
Weeny Owl - Sep 2, 2006 8:48 pm (#2041 of 2486)
I think we could all agree that some of Hermione's actions have been questionable, but whose haven't?
Is there really anyone in real life who hasn't done something that was morally or ethically questionable?
We can hardly expenct teens to be what we ourselves aren't.
Harry, Hermione, Ron, the twins, Percy, and even Dumbledore have all done things that I find to be wrong, but JKR is writing these characters in a realistic way, and to make them other than what their peers would be would make her books awful.
Hermione is a young girl who wants to please authority figures while at the same time protecting her friends. She hasn't done anything that someone her age in the real world wouldn't do and still be accepted as being a good person. Good people can still do things that aren't up to par, but what Hermione does under normal circumstances and what she might do under unusual circumstances aren't always going to be one and the same.
timrew - Sep 3, 2006 3:17 pm (#2042 of 2486)
Pimples-Death? Pimples-Death? Oh, what a choice!?
Ludicrous Patents Office - Sep 3, 2006 4:31 pm (#2043 of 2486)
You can't excuse everything by saying these are kids. Die Zimzicke
I agree. It is part of growing up to make mistakes and learn from them. Sometimes it takes many years to learn from them. Sometimes learning means getting caught and punished. Hermione is developing and learning how to use a conscious. She tends to use the "end justifies the means" philosophy.
I think there is a bit of humor from Jo with the pimples. What could possibly be more devastating to teen-agers than pimples? It seems to me they are slowly fading. LPO
Die Zimtzicke - Sep 3, 2006 5:35 pm (#2044 of 2486)
Sorry. Disfiguring someone for life over something they did when they were sixteen does not necessarily indicate that you are a good person as I see it.
Steve Newton - Sep 3, 2006 6:18 pm (#2045 of 2486)
I think that the point is more that it doesn't make you a bad person. The reason for such action is very important. Protecting yourself and others would seem to be a very good reason.
Madame Pomfrey - Sep 3, 2006 7:38 pm (#2046 of 2486)
I don't think Marietta is scared for life,psychologically maybe,hopefully she will always remember her blunder.The fact that she can wear makeup may indicate that the pimples are fading.I think Hermione was right on.
Weeny Owl - Sep 3, 2006 9:13 pm (#2047 of 2486)
Marietta wouldn't have ended up with pimples had she kept her mouth shut as she agreed to.
I do believe it is relevant to say that these kids and their actions are different than an adult's would be.
I can't believe anyone on the face of this earth past, present, or future could say that his/her choices would be that different than Hermione's under the exact same circumstances.
How many of us have friends who are castigated in the newspapers or have teachers who physically torture students? How many of us have friends whose parents were murdered by a madman and who have watched a fellow student murdered?
I don't approve of Hermione's actions in regards to Ron and the Quidditch tryouts, but when she's protecting a group of people whose purpose is defending themselves, then pimples just don't seem to matter that much.
wynnleaf - Sep 3, 2006 9:32 pm (#2048 of 2486)
Funny how a "horribly disfigured" face of purple pustules that no one seems to be able to cure, in spite of all the wizarding abilities to cure practically anything with a potion or spell, as now so nicely become so mundane as "pimples." A number of recent posters are using much more palatable and "nice" descriptions of Hermione's hex.
Solitaire - Sep 3, 2006 9:34 pm (#2049 of 2486)
Just wondering, because I can't find the spot ... where in the book does it say Marietta is "horribly disfigured"?
wynnleaf - Sep 3, 2006 9:38 pm (#2050 of 2486)
The Centaur and the Sneak
As Marietta raised her head, Fudge leapt backward in shock, nearly landing himself in the fire. He cursed and stamped on the hem of his cloak, which had started to smoke, and Marietta gave a wail and pulled the neck of her robes right up to her eyes, but not before the whole room had seen that her face was horribly disfigured by a series of close-set purple pustules that had spread across her nose and cheeks to form the word "SNEAK."
Notice Fudge was so shocked he leapt backward -- that was not just a bad case of pimples.
And it was horribly disfiguring.
Hermione set a hidden jinx to horribly disfigure the person that broke the contract. It's certainly better than death. But let's not mince words. It wasn't a case of pimples.
Harry already has seperated himself from Hermione's opinion, thank God! He knew she was going about things wrong with the house elves. And he could see that for someone who trumpets respect for other magical creatures, she sure screwed up with the centaurs. Harry lost a lot of faith in Hermione's judgement in OotP, and I see no evidence he's gotten it back. He just liked what happened to Marietta because it benefitted him directly.
Chemyst - Aug 30, 2006 12:28 pm (#2002 of 2486)
...after becoming drunk with Hagrid, Professor Slughorn calls Harry by the name Parry Otter. This name combination is intriguing because of the question it raises. – Nathan
That Otter jumped right out at me when I read that! But the Parry evaded me. (I'm sorry. I'll be serious now.) I think "Parry Otter" was a befitting play on words that gives us more clues about character than it does clues to plot points. Slughorn becomes a happy/philosophical drunk and not a mean/nasty drunk. He is the good slytherin.
I would like to see Hermione live up to the playfulness of her otter patronus. We see little glimpses every now and then, but it is an unusual contrast to her over-all gravity.
Meoshimo - Aug 30, 2006 3:32 pm (#2003 of 2486)
Steve-
I think you're missing the subtlety of the statement "Might doesn't make right; right makes might". The second part means that doing the right thing and sticking to your good morals is what makes you strong, as opposed to using strength in arms or cunning to overpower your enemies.
Die Zimtzicke-
It just goes to show that book smarts doesn't equal street smarts!
Ludicrous Patents Office - Aug 30, 2006 7:34 pm (#2004 of 2486)
I think these incidences were deliberately put in because the characters are going to change for the better in book 7. Rambkowalczyk
I agree. Look at how James changed. Harry was crushed when he saw his 15 year old father being a jerk. Everyone who knew James, with the exception of Snape, said he grew out of that. James was highly respected.
In some ways I was glad to see Hermione become emotional in HBP. It is part of the maturing process. I think basically she is a good person.
Nathan that does bring up some interesting thoughts. I think Patronus' are going to be important in the next book. LPO
Steve Newton - Aug 30, 2006 7:37 pm (#2005 of 2486)
Meoshimo, I think that I got the point. Might wins.
TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 30, 2006 8:11 pm (#2006 of 2486)
Since Hermione is the only one of the trio that knows the 12 uses of dragons blood are this is bound to come up. Dumbledore discovered them as stated on the chocolate frog card that was important to Dumbledore not to be taken off of. I wonder what triggers her memory of this and where JKR will go with that. Care to speculate?
... toddles off to ponder more about those chocolate frog cards and dragons blood...
Laura W - Aug 31, 2006 12:40 am (#2007 of 2486)
Hoot Owl wrote, "Ron and McClaggen probably would have tied."
Yes, and that's the point. By denying Cormac his last shot - through the use of sneaky magic -, Hermoine robbed him of the chance to win or lose fair and square. Since they both would have saved five, the right thing would have been for Harry to have a run-off between them. I assume he would have done this had Hermoine not interfered (or, as Jo wrote it, provided a "helping hand").
I can just imagine how incensed we would all be if someone - a Slytherin or whoever - had put the Confundus Curse on Ron, causing him to lose the coveted spot on the team! Unethical behavior is wrong, no matter who uses it. Like Cedric Diggory, I value fair play very highly.
Laura
Eponine - Aug 31, 2006 5:58 am (#2008 of 2486)
It's funny, because in the books, Hermione's questionable behavior can often be seen as justifiable. (I'm not saying that makes it okay, though) For example, confounding McClaggan saved the team a lot of difficulties if he had gotten the spot instead of Ron, as evidenced by his behavior when he was playing. That doesn't make it right for her to have done it, but it could be seen as having a positive outcome.
She's often guilty of questionable moral behavior, but in her mind (and usually in the text as well) it's justified because of the outcome. I don't know if it will ever come back to bite her, but I kind of doubt it.
Vulture - Aug 31, 2006 6:37 am (#2009 of 2486)
Edited Aug 31, 2006 7:30 am
The "SNEAK" jinx was not necessarily meant as a deterrent or a punishment, it was an indicator that the secrecy of the contract was broken! The D. A. would know when someone had talked. The "sneak" could not come back to the meetings and gather more evidence. (Hoot Owl - Aug 29, 2006 10:14 am (#1986))
Yes, I had overlooked that _ good point.
I got focussed on the issue of punishment because of my views on the morality of what Marietta did. Having read people's reactions, it occurs to me that here again we have another example of something Book 5 does briefly, but well _ the Sneak Jinx is discussed by Cho and Harry, and (broadly speaking) I agree with Harry.
I must say, though, that I never expected JKR to make the Sneak Jinx last much beyond Book 5. I thought it would either wear off, or else that JKR would have a little sub-plot about how Marietta gets rid of it by redeeming herself. Given Cho's "fierce" reaction (JKR seems to like using that word with Cho), it'd be natural that Hermione would get a lot of hassle in Sixth Year from Ravenclaw friends of Marietta wanting a cure _ but there's no sign of that. One would also expect that Marietta might go to Dumbledore or senior wizards for a cure if no-one else could do it _ but that doesn't happen either.
Ron and McClaggen probably would have tied. Harry could have done another round or chosen on the basis of experience and compatablity. So she made it easier for both her friends by cheating. Was that kindness or selfishness ? Hoot Owl - Aug 29, 2006 10:14 am (#1986))
Well, while not taking back what I said about McLaggen in #1978, I wouldn't attempt to evade the fact that Hermione cheated for Ron's sake. But I don't think we should get too hot and bothered over it _ JKR didn't intend us to take it too seriously. Harry had a lot of fun at Hermione's expense about her breaking rules, and I think that's the right way to look at it.
Steve Newton _ thanks for your post #1987. Spot on.
Come on, what do you do....shoot them and then offer them a bandaid? (Choices - Aug 29, 2006 5:44 pm (#1988))
I know what you mean, but it's a sign of the times we live in. At the risk of being irrelevant _ can you imagine, during the Battle Of Stalingrad in WW2, the Wehrmacht ringing up Russian locals and saying "Good morning. This is the German Army. In one hour we will blow up your house. Have a nice day". Yet this happened in a recent war.
Again, imagine if, during Stalingrad, neutral international organisations said to the SS: "Look, we're not trying to stop you exterminating Russian civilians, but we'd like you to let us deliver food to them while you're doing it". Yet this happened in a war during the 1990s.
(Sorry, Editor _ don't want to drag in politics (which is why I've not named those two recent wars.)
If one has dealt a great deal with contracts, it appears that they have more sympathy to Marietta. Is that a fair resume of the situation? (Die Zimtzicke - Aug 29, 2006 8:33 pm (#1991))
I wonder. Maybe we should take a poll. As ye know, I've little sympathy for her, and I've no experience with contracts (apart from banks and credit cards always doing better out of them than me !!). Votes, people ?
By the way, my own opinion is that you can't really compare magical contracts in the JKR world to our own understanding of "contracts" _ they're a different sort of animal. (For example, portraits in Hogwarts have a whole different meaning and role than portraits in our world's galleries.)
I don't think it was kindness or selfishness; I think it as immoral. I was actually surprised that Hermione cheated to get Ron on the team. Whether it's for yourself or a friend, cheating is still wrong. And then she actually is angry at Harry for seemingly putting Felix Felicis in Ron's drink (Meoshimo - Aug 29, 2006 11:20 pm (#1992))
Well, see my reply to Hoot Owl, above, on her cheating. As regards Felix Felicis in Ron's drink, though, I don't regard Hermione as inconsistent or hypocritical in her reaction to it _ I know it's not apparent at first sight, but there is a distinction:
Yes, cheating to get Ron on the team was wrong (and I've gone into it above), but to put Felix Felicis in Ron's drink to help his performance would be a far greater wrong. The first wrong only affects Ron and McLaggen _ at worst, it might mean Gryffindor not having quite the best team they could have had. But Felix Felicis would mean Gryffindor winning unfairly. Notice that Harry, in fact, agrees with Hermione on Felix Felicis _ he knows the law, he didn't really put it in, and when Hermione has a go at him, he does not quote her own act of cheating against her.
On the unbreakable vow, apparently that's part of such a thing -- that's why it's called "unbreakable." Even Fred and George knew at age 7 what an unbreakable vow was. The DA contract wasn't called the "unbreakable contract." Was it called anything? I thought it was just a "sign your name to the list if you want to join and don't tell anyone" kind of thing. Did any of the students even call it a contract? (wynnleaf - Aug 30, 2006 3:33 am (#1994))
My memory is hazy on the exact words, but when they were forming the D.A., they were discussing all about Umbridge, the need for proper Defence classes, etc., and then Hermione said something, I can't remember what, but I think it was about how Umbridge would react to what they were doing. I remember her concluding statement: something like "So if you sign this, you're agreeing not to tell Umbridge or anyone about what we're doing".
I also remember the others' immediate reactions. Eddie Macmillan and his friends were quite disturbed and had to be talked around before signing. There was a fair bit of discussion (including stuff about Prefects keeping secrets from authorities). During all this time, Marietta said not one word, but she certainly could not pretend not to have known what she was getting into. No, she wasn't told about any punishment, but she was told what the right thing to do was _ her job was either to do it or not to join. Remember how much value Dumbledore puts on choices ? She chose to join, and she chose to become a traitor.
(Continued in next post .........)
Vulture - Aug 31, 2006 6:40 am (#2010 of 2486)
Edited Aug 31, 2006 7:33 am
(..... continued from last post)
If she meant it to prevent people from betraying the group, then why didn't she tell them they had just signed an enchanted parchment? It would be along the lines of a shop posting signs telling customers that they're on camera so they'd better not steal stuff. (Meoshimo - Aug 29, 2006 11:20 pm (#1992))
I disagree. To follow your analogy _ why on earth should a shop tell people that they're on camera ? People are not supposed to steal, full stop. Whether there is anything to stop them doing it is irrelevant.
Let's get straight exactly what Marietta did:
(1) She betrayed her friends _ and if she didn't really regard them as friends, she had still made to them a solemn promise of loyalty.
(2) She betrayed her own best friend _ and we see afterwards just how decent and loyal a friend Cho is.
(3) She betrayed them into the hands of Umbridge, whose methods include slicing open students' skin: by the way, we know that Umbridge did this to others than Harry (who had kept quiet), so I doubt very much if Marietta had no idea what Umbridge was like.
(4) She did not sneak to Flitwick (her Head Of House), to any of Hogwarts's normal teachers, or to Dumbledore, the Headmaster. She sneaked to the one person whose attempt to (in effect) destroy Hogwarts was precisely the whole basis of the D.A. (so I'd be surprised if she hadn't heard plenty of discussion of Umbridge's regime).
(5) If Marietta had succeeded (i.e. if it had not been for Dumbledore), Harry and his friends would have been expelled, and we can be sure that Fudge and Umbridge would have plastered it all over the "Daily Prophet" (due to the Ministry's fear of Dumbledore's and Harry's evidence about Voldemort). Voldemort would have read and noted all the D.A.'s names as people who, unlike the Ministry, had not been fooled about his return. And there they would be _ out in the open, outside the protection of Hogwarts, with no other protection due to the Ministry's blindness. The D.A. had been set up precisely because of Voldemort's return and had discussed it _ so Marietta knew what betraying her friends would mean.
I've been thinking about a previous comment _ I forget whose, sorry _ that Marietta shouldn't suffer forever for what she did at the age of 16. Now, I've made clear that I have no desire to see her suffer forever, but let me just point out that there are millions of people who suffer forever for their lives at 16 (or younger), and whose suffering our world seems able to live with, though it pretends not to approve. They're called victims _ the victims of bullies and sneaks. Punishment for bullies and sneaks is not only justice, but may actually be the kindest thing for them in the long run. (I've no patience with all the rubbish talked these days about bullies' sorrowful lives _ I never met a bully yet who didn't have a sob story when cornered. (Apologies if I sound hot under the collar !!)) Not that I classify Marietta as a bully, so maybe I'm in danger of irrelevance ...
One more thought _ if Pettigrew had run up against a Hermione-style punishment early on, he might never have become the despised and lethally treacherous Wormtail. Wouldn't that have been worth a few pimples, not least to him ?
What she did was pure and simple vengeance. Not that the kid did not have it coming, she did! (cindysuewho45 - Aug 30, 2006 3:46 am (#1995))
I disagree that it was vengeance, but yes, I expected it not to last forever. See my comments above and in the last post.
rambkowalczyk - On your post #1996, I see what you're saying, but I would say that forgiving your enemies does not mean not punishing them if they deserve _ and possibly, need _ it, or pretending that they are not so bad, when it is quite clear that they are. (By the way, that last phrase does not refer to Snape, because nothing about him is clear _ though Harry now thinks it is.) In my view, forgiving others means viewing and treating their bad actions as you should view and treat your own. In short, hate (and where appropriate, punish) the sin but not the sinner.
And he could see that for someone who trumpets respect for other magical creatures, she sure screwed up with the centaurs. (Die Zimtzicke - Aug 30, 2006 11:41 am (#2001))
What is this about the centaurs ? What incident does this refer to ?
Die Zimtzicke - Aug 31, 2006 8:36 am (#2011 of 2486)
The incident refers to Hermione expecting them to help her get rid of Umbridge, when they are so proud and testy, and yone who knew them well might be able to guess they would feel they were being used and not take it lying down.
As for the Quidditch, it wasn't Hermione's place to decide who was best for the team. Harry was the captain. It was up to him to handle the team and make any changes IF someone didn't work out. maybe if McClaggan had gotten in right away on his own merits, he would have toned down his urge to prove to everyone how great he was. We''ll never know. And I'm just not picking on Hermione here. I feel the same way about Ginny deciding someone was a prat for Harry because she deemed him too busy to do it himself. I just didn't see a lot of teamwork on that team, and I'm glad that Quiidditch is apparently going by the wayside.
wynnleaf - Aug 31, 2006 8:40 am (#2012 of 2486)
The incident refers to Hermione expecting them to help her get rid of Umbridge, when they are so proud and testy, and yone who knew them well might be able to guess they would feel they were being used and not take it lying down.
Die Zimtzicke, thanks for posting that. I, too, was wondering what the early comments about Hermione and centaurs were about.
There are a lot of actions of Hermione's that I seriously disagree with her on, but this is not one of them. While Hermione made a mistake in her approach to the centaurs, I don't think she should be faulted for something she did in a very stressful moment, when she was in dire need of someone to take care of Umbridge.
Chemyst - Aug 31, 2006 8:57 am (#2013 of 2486)
Vulture, why don't you start a new thread for 'Hermione's Contract Poll.' Run it the old-fashioned way that Liz did them. Phrase the question clearly, state how long you intend the poll to last, and then take the responsibility for tabulating all the answers. She often allowed open-ended answers that made a lot of different responses, so it may take some care in figuring out the results unless you make a standard "Other" option.
Weeny Owl - Aug 31, 2006 9:24 am (#2014 of 2486)
As for the Quidditch, it wasn't Hermione's place to decide who was best for the team. Harry was the captain. It was up to him to handle the team and make any changes IF someone didn't work out. maybe if McClaggan had gotten in right away on his own merits, he would have toned down his urge to prove to everyone how great he was. We''ll never know. And I'm just not picking on Hermione here. I feel the same way about Ginny deciding someone was a prat for Harry because she deemed him too busy to do it himself. I just didn't see a lot of teamwork on that team, and I'm glad that Quiidditch is apparently going by the wayside.
The thing about all of that is that I think some of us expect more from Harry and Company for a couple of reasons... one being that they're the "good guys," and two that we're seeing them from the point of view of our own experience and wisdom as opposed to what they really are... teens with raging hormones, and not just that, but with the addition of magic and the addition of being in a war.
There are quite a few TV shows with teens, and some portray teens better than others, but one that I feel is a good example of teenage girls is "8 Simple Rules."
Carrie is the brain, and in a lot of ways she reminds me of Hermione. Even though Carrie is the more responsible daughter, she still messes up.
That's what Hermione is doing... messing up the way a teen would. No matter how deep her fondness for rules may be, she isn't a mini-McGonagall but a teenage girl. She proved that from the first book when she took blame for the troll, and she's proven it time and time again, but some of that gets lost because she does harp about rules.
I don't see Hermione (or Ginny, for that matter) as being anything other than normal girls who are doing what is age-appropriate, even if it isn't always the best thing or the right thing. They may be book characters, but if they didn't mess up now and then, they wouldn't be at all realistic.
Vulture - Aug 31, 2006 9:41 am (#2015 of 2486)
Vulture, why don't you start a new thread for 'Hermione's Contract Poll.' Run it the old-fashioned way that Liz did them. Phrase the question clearly, state how long you intend the poll to last, and then take the responsibility for tabulating all the answers. She often allowed open-ended answers that made a lot of different responses, so it may take some care in figuring out the results unless you make a standard "Other" option. (Chemyst [/b]- Aug 31, 2006 8:57 am (#2013))
Good idea. Only problem is, my access to the Net is either (a) one (packed) hour a day in the library, or (b) a dodgy home-link that appears to be under the impression that WWW stands for "World .......... Wide ............. Wait .........". :-)
Honour - Sep 1, 2006 12:18 am (#2016 of 2486)
Wow! I've just read through 22 posts since I last posted : )
" -Then why was Ron surprised by what Hermione did?" - Wynnleaf
Ron maybe pureblood (although what relevance this has to do with Hermione's hexing the contract I have no idea?) but if he were at all surprised about what Hermione did it would probably have more to do with Hermione having the for-thought(Neither Ron nor Harry would have thought to do this) to hex the contract and thereby ensuing that the whistle blower is made known, and yes, Harry was proud of Hermione.
" - We have no evidence that signing your name on the sign-up list to a school club constitutes some sort of binding magical contract in the magical world" - Wynnleaf
Actually we do, this very contract we are discussing now, is canon evidence, and since JKR wrote it, it must be so? : ) The other binding magical contract I can think of other than the unbreakable vow is the entering of Harry's name into the Goblet of Fire. Harry may not have entered himself but he was still bound by the magical rules to take part in the competition. : )
cindysuewho45, I think using a memory charm would have had a worse outcome than a pimple hex, re: Gilderoy Lockhart? : )
Hoorah! The voices of reason, Vulture and Weeny Owl!
cindysuewho45 - Sep 1, 2006 2:53 am (#2017 of 2486)
Hi all, I was reading book 1 over again, and on page 125 & 126, Hermione is talking to Percy and says, "I do hope they start right away, there's so much to learn, I'm particularly interested in Transfiguration, you know, turning something into something else, of course, it's supposed to be very difficult-" Well I was thinking about how JKR has said that she put a lot of the plot for all the books in book 1. She had to rewrite book 1 over many times because of it. So I was thinking that maybe we will get to see Hermione doing some transfiguring of her own in book 7. I was thinking that maybe Hermione and Ginny could get up to something, by transfiguring themselves, to look into something. ????????
Laura W - Sep 1, 2006 3:28 am (#2018 of 2486)
"HBP p. 314 Scholastic Hardbound "Harry was left to ponder in silence the depths to which girls would sink to get revenge." Hermione operates just like a teen age girl. It is not always pretty." (Ludicrous Patents Office)
Looking at your statement, LPO, gives me a different perspective. One that I can accept. I like Hermoine so much that I can picture her years down the road remembering how, at the age of 17, she rigged the tryouts so that Ron would win and feeling ashamed of herself. Rather like the adult Lupin realizes that, at age 15, he was remiss and even wrong to let Sirius and James do what they did to Severus in "Snape's Worst Memory."
Whew, I feel better now.
Laura
Die Zimtzicke - Sep 1, 2006 6:31 am (#2019 of 2486)
Well, Hermione isn't ashamed about disfiguring a fellow teenager for life, and now that Marietta has left school, nothing may ever be done about that. You can't excuse everything by saying these are kids. Kids can be sentenced as adults for crimes, and once you start doing things like this, it's a slippery slope.
If we want/expect them to be better than other kids, what's wrong with that? We are depending on them to win the war, aren't we? They aren't ordinary teenagers.
Steve Newton - Sep 1, 2006 8:08 am (#2020 of 2486)
Not to bring up things better said elsewhere but we don't know if the 'Sneak' will be there for life. Hermione let of the traitor easy. Even I could come up with dozens of worse things that she could have done.
wynnleaf - Sep 1, 2006 8:31 am (#2021 of 2486)
Honour,
I think you misunderstood me. I meant that Ron had no knowledge that the contract he signed was a binding magical agreement, until Hermione told him after the fact. Therefore, I think we can assume that it was not a "given" that any school list for a club that you happened to sign was automatically a binding magical contract. If it were, Ron would have assumed the same about this one.
Based on that, I think it's reasonable to say that the rest of the students signing the contract would have had no expectation that there would be a binding magical element to their signatures on the page.
I mentioned that because on the Marietta thread, many posters felt that the students would just somehow know that if they signed their names, they'd be entering a binding magical agreement.
Ron didn't know it, therefore we have no reason to think anyone else should have known it.
Chemyst - Sep 1, 2006 2:07 pm (#2022 of 2486)
Ron didn't know it, therefore we have no reason to think anyone else should have known it.
From the text, chapter 16, In the Hog's Head
Hermione took the parchment back and slipped it carefully into her bag. There was an odd feeling in the group now. It was as though they had just signed some kind of contract.
Fred is the first to get up and the others leave in twos and threes. The next we hear of Ron is
"Well, I think that went quite well," said Hermione happily as she, Harry and Ron walked out of the Hog's Head into the bright sunlight a few minutes later, Harry, and Ron still clutching their bottles of butterbeer.
"That Zacharias bloke's a wart, " said Ron who was glowering after the figure of Smith just discernable in the distance.
At this point, Ron is accustomed to and trusts Hermione well enough he is not going to question anything she does too closely. He is not nearly as guarded about what he signed as the non-Gryffindors were, especially when he is sipping butterbeer and preoccupied with scowling and grumbling about Zacharias. I don't think Ron's reaction is a good gauge of what a typical Ravenclaw witch would anticipate or expect; particularly since he was able to shake off the "odd feeling in the group" and replace it with anger so easily.
Ron would have been one of the last people to suspect Hermione, pureblood or otherwise. And that is why he'd be surprised and impressed that she had the foresight to anticipate potential problems and include a jinx.
wynnleaf - Sep 1, 2006 3:17 pm (#2023 of 2486)
Ron's reaction may be a good gauge, an excellent gaube, a terrible gauge, or whatever anyone thinks -- but it is the only one we've got if we're going to look at canon. The only student we hear from about whether or not that magically binding contract had any magic attached to it is Ron and as a pureblood he'd be expected to know more than muggleborns.
Sure everyone felt they'd signed a contract. We don't have any evidence that they thought they'd signed anything with a hex or jinx attached to it, or any other magical consequences. Speculation is fine of course -- but to use it as justification for Hermione's action -- as though we know that Marietta should have expected such a magically binding feature, is pure guesswork, without canon support.
In other words, speculation is fine. But the only definite evidence we have about anyone's expectations regarding a magical consequence to the contract is Ron's, and he didn't expect it.
Honour - Sep 1, 2006 3:59 pm (#2024 of 2486)
As you and I are not JKR all we have is speculation about whether or not magical contracts have an extra inbuilt hex or charm. It seems that as just being within the magical world one must surely keep all, and I mean all options open.
I am not justifying Hermione's action in this whole episode, rather, I am accepting that it is part of the story line that JKR has written. Personally I have issues with alot of the sub-plots in this book, i.e. that Dumbledore in all his wisdom would leave a child to be bought up with an abusive family, that Harry, Ron and Hermione have knowledge that a teacher is physically torturing students and they do not tell, that Dumbledore pressurizes Harry to get information from Sluggy which results in Sluggy desecrating the dead remains of a much loved pet and these are but a few that really stick in my craw.
The reality of the DA contract is, that JKR wrote it so and this is how it has happened. The hex was a safety mechanism, if the singatories were at all honourable then they had no need to worry, if they were not well ... Marietta face. What I personally have learnt in reading this story is that Trust is a comodity that was and is, taken for granted re: Peter Pettigrew, resulting in little orphan Harry, and Dumbledore/Severus. Pimples are the least of consequences to pay when the actions of untrustworthy people who pretend to be your friends result in deaths...
I see you constantly offer up Ron as evidence to support your theory, not to be too rude, but you know Ron isn't exactly the sharpest knife in the drawer, but he does trust Harry and Hermione, for better or for worse, let's hope history doesn't repeat itself ... in book 7.
Die Zimtzicke - Sep 1, 2006 4:38 pm (#2025 of 2486)
I don't know how Hermione can take the charm OFF now, unless they run into Marietta horcrux hunting. Marietta has left school, and so has Cho. They don't have graduations in Britain until after university, so it seems that Hogwarts does not have them either, but whatever it is they do, they've done it.
Meoshimo - Sep 1, 2006 4:39 pm (#2026 of 2486)
Perhaps Marietta will have a short stay in St. Mungo's. They seem pretty good at countering magical damage.
Choices - Sep 1, 2006 5:53 pm (#2027 of 2486)
Honour - "Personally I have issues with alot of the sub-plots in this book, i.e. that Dumbledore in all his wisdom would leave a child to be bought up with an abusive family, that Harry, Ron and Hermione have knowledge that a teacher is physically torturing students and they do not tell, that Dumbledore pressurizes Harry to get information from Sluggy which results in Sluggy desecrating the dead remains of a much loved pet and these are but a few that really stick in my craw."
While you are choking on those sub-plots, you could also worry about the old witch that tried to stuff two kids in her oven to eat them, or the girl who ate the poisoned apple, or the girl who moved in with seven little guys, or the girl who pricked her finger on the spinning wheel, or the girl with the wicked step-mother and sisters, etc. Gosh, isn't all that the heart and soul of kids stories? We grew up on those - are Harry Potter sub-plots really any worse?
Weeny Owl - Sep 1, 2006 8:39 pm (#2028 of 2486)
You can't excuse everything by saying these are kids. Kids can be sentenced as adults for crimes, and once you start doing things like this, it's a slippery slope.
It isn't an excuse, though... it's a fact. Whether or not kids can be sentenced as adults isn't the point. It's the action first, and teenagers usually aren't the best decision makers, hence the years when they come of age.
What Hermione's behavior has shown me is that she isn't a small adult, but a girl trying her best but occasionally slipping. That's normal behavior for someone her age.
Each thing she's done could have its basic Muggle equivalent, and I truly believe that is what JKR is trying to show. Hermione is above-average in schoolwork and following rules, but she is still a young girl who makes mistakes.
Vulture - Sep 1, 2006 8:52 pm (#2029 of 2486)
Honour - "Personally I have issues with alot of the sub-plots in this book, i.e. that Dumbledore in all his wisdom would leave a child to be bought up with an abusive family, that Harry, Ron and Hermione have knowledge that a teacher is physically torturing students and they do not tell, that Dumbledore pressurizes Harry to get information from Sluggy which results in Sluggy desecrating the dead remains of a much loved pet and these are but a few that really stick in my craw."
While you are choking on those sub-plots, you could also worry about the old witch that tried to stuff two kids in her oven to eat them, or the girl who ate the poisoned apple, or the girl who moved in with seven little guys, or the girl who pricked her finger on the spinning wheel, or the girl with the wicked step-mother and sisters, etc. Gosh, isn't all that the heart and soul of kids stories? We grew up on those - are Harry Potter sub-plots really any worse? (Choices [/b]- Sep 1, 2006 5:53 pm (#2027))
Hey, don't worry about those wimpy happy-ending ones _ try some Irish legends for size: Cuchulainn the "Hound Of Ulster" who, for all sorts of honourable reasons, (a) has to kill his best friend, (b)has to kill his son, (c) ignore his wife's advice, walk straight into a sorcerous trap he knew all about and get killed (very VERY slowly _ there's a statue of him in Dublin with a raven drinking his blood). Then there's Fionn and the Fianna: the biggest romance in Irish legend (Diarmuid and Grainne) ends with the good guy dying and the bad guy getting the girl. Oh, not forgetting the other big romance, Deirdre and the sons of Usna, where the bad guy again gets the girl, kills her lover AND his two brothers, and then Deirdre kills herself. Then there's the Chilldren Of Lir where an evil witch turns our heroes and heroine into swans and the whole thing is one long sob till they die.
Actually, they're great stories _ but you get my point. You better hope, though, that JKR hasn't spent too many holidays in Ireland before Book 7 !!
Honour - Sep 1, 2006 10:37 pm (#2030 of 2486)
Hey there Choices, I have no argument with you there
My own culture is filled to the brim with legends of very similar nature to what has been described ... the point I was trying to make is that, I understand that Wynnleaf has issues surrounding whether the hex Hermione attached to the DA contract was underhanded, and in itself sneaky, and whether or not those signing did so with prior knowledge blah, blah, blah, because I too had issues about the instances I had mentioned, and even though I had issue with these instances doesn't mean that I do not enjoy the HP series, rather, that I accept them as part of the story. As my kids say, "build a bridge mum"... : ) Soul Search - Sep 2, 2006 7:33 am (#2031 of 2486)
Hermione's pimple spell was woefully inadequate.
Hermione conceived the DA, invited others to join, and assured protection if members would sign the contract. Yet, her spell on the contract provided no protection.
The DA was a dangerous activity. Umbridge was a dangerous adversary. She sent dementors to soul-suck Harry. She could have had aurors waiting outside the RoR door to haul everyone off to Azkaban and AK any that offered resistance.
Hermione should have used a spell that caused any traitor to drop dead on the spot. That would have saved the group. No, she uses a wimpy pimple spell. Woefully inadequate. Not at all what the situation demanded.
I hope she does better in the future.
wynnleaf - Sep 2, 2006 8:24 am (#2032 of 2486)
My own culture is filled to the brim with legends of very similar nature to what has been described ... the point I was trying to make is that, I understand that Wynnleaf has issues surrounding whether the hex Hermione attached to the DA contract was underhanded, and in itself sneaky, and whether or not those signing did so with prior knowledge blah, blah, blah, because I too had issues about the instances I had mentioned, and even though I had issue with these instances doesn't mean that I do not enjoy the HP series, rather, that I accept them as part of the story. As my kids say, "build a bridge mum"... : )
While it's perfectly fine that JKR use story elements that reflect our heritage from fairy and folk tales, her story is *not* such a tale -- the primary reason being that she is an individual writer creating a set story, rather than a story that is formed by a culture of oral story telling where the story gradually changes to fit the desires, attitudes, and culture of the people who create the story. Fairy tales and folk tales unfold through the retelling by many tellers, often in direct response to those who listen. In other words, it's a process of both teller and listener, who around the fire, offer and recieve input.
JKR writes from her particular objectives. So when she writes those problematic subplots, she is the only one accountable for them, rather than the fairy or folk tale where the subplots are born out of all involved -- tellers and listeners.
Additionally, while fairy tales and folk tales do have the "good guys" involved in some ethically questionable behavior, most of the ones you mentioned were the actions of the bad guys. I'm not particularly concerned that JKR writes the bad guys as doing awful things. I am sometimes concerned when she writes the good guys as doing unethical things, without any story element that reveals to the reader that it is unethical. There are places in HP where I feel that we're expected to consider the good guys actions acceptable just because they're on the right "side," when those same actions by the "bad" guys would be considered evidence of how bad they are.
As regards Hermione and the jinxed contract, I think that Hermione does numerous things that are pretty ethically questionable. The hidden contract jinx, drugging fellow students in order to impersonate them (for no excusable reason), stealing from a teacher's stores and encouraging one's friends to create an explosion in a potions room which injures other students, ruining McCormack's attempt to get into the Quidditch team in order to favor Ron, constantly helping students in class when a teacher has told her not to do so, trying to trick the house elves into a forced freedom that they adamently oppose, etc. I think the contract jinx is right in line with many other of Hermione's ideas. I often think Hermione's attitude is "I'm the smartest, therefore I know what's best for everyone." That is not a particularly unusual attitude, by the way. Thank goodness many people eventually grow out of it. Many do not.
Honour, I agree that Ron can be pretty clueless sometimes. But like I said, regarding whether anyone should have expected there to be magical binding elements to the contract, he is the only one we have as an example either way. Sure, JKR wrote Hermione as creating a magically binding contract. That wasn't the question I was arguing. Of course this was a magically binding contract. The question I was arguing was whether students would expect a school club contract to be magically binding. Ron didn't expect it and he was the only example we got one way or the other -- hey, except Marietta, who obviously didn't expect it either.
Hermione should have used a spell that caused any traitor to drop dead on the spot. That would have saved the group. No, she uses a wimpy pimple spell. Woefully inadequate. Not at all what the situation demanded.
Wow, Soul Search, are you kidding? Do you really think Hermione should have killed anyone breaking the contract? That's what it amounts to after all. If Hermione set a curse to kill whoever broke it, then she would have killed them.
Choices - Sep 2, 2006 9:51 am (#2033 of 2486)
LOL Soul Search - I like the way you think. LOL
Chemyst - Sep 2, 2006 12:06 pm (#2034 of 2486)
Hermione's pimple spell was woefully inadequate. Hermione conceived the DA, invited others to join, and assured protection if members would sign the contract. Yet, her spell on the contract provided no protection. – Soul Search
We all see the irony of this, right? She could't be expected to perform the perfect defense spell before the defense classes had started.
(PS The only "assured protection" I remember was that she wouldn't leave the list lying around; was there some other assurance?)
____________________________-
If Hermione set a curse to kill whoever broke it, then she would have killed them.
Every once in a while, I wish the forum rules against religious discussion were not so strict. This is one of those times because the extension of this kind of thinking is that God kills people; but I can't really explain it beyond that here. It was Marietta's personal choice that determined her outcome.
Catherine - Sep 2, 2006 12:25 pm (#2035 of 2486)
Well, Hermione isn't ashamed about disfiguring a fellow teenager for life, and now that Marietta has left school, nothing may ever be done about that. --Die Zimtzicke
How do you know this?
And again, I will reiterate my belief that Hermione did not injure Marietta.
Soul Search - Sep 2, 2006 4:21 pm (#2036 of 2486)
Chemyst,
She could't be expected to perform the perfect defense spell before the defense classes had started.
Good point. I guess we can excuse Hermione for being wimpy, just this once.
Marietta, however, should have thanked Hermione profusely for not making the consequences for a traitor more serious than just some pimples.
Choices - Sep 2, 2006 5:29 pm (#2037 of 2486)
I may be wrong, but in most countries don't they execute traitors? To borrow a line from Eddy Izzard, that's sort of a cake or death sort of question, isn't it. Or rather pimples or death.....pimples, please. I say she definitely got off easy. :-)
Meoshimo - Sep 2, 2006 5:31 pm (#2038 of 2486)
To you, pimples is no big deal, but to a girl in her mid-teens? And it's not just pimples, it actually spells SNEAK. She got off light, but I'd imagine she wouldn't think so.
Choices - Sep 2, 2006 5:40 pm (#2039 of 2486)
I certain hope she doesn't think so. I hope she thinks long and hard about what got her the pimples in the first place. Hopefully she learned her lesson and won't do it again. Oh, and I don't for one minute think the pimples are permanent - they will fade in time and maybe even quicker if Marietta acknowledges her treachery.
Solitaire - Sep 2, 2006 6:35 pm (#2040 of 2486)
What she did was pure and simple vengeance.
Vengeance is defined by Merriam-Webster Online as "punishment inflicted in retaliation for an injury or offense." In order for Hermione's actions to be considered vengeance, she would have had to cast the spell after the betrayal, and she would have cast it specifically on Marietta. She didn't. Hermione took no actions at all towards Marietta. She simply took the precaution of jinxing the parchment ahead of time, so that if someone did tell, the DA would know who it was ... period. If no one had violated the agreement not to tell, nothing would have happened to anyone. Unfortunately, Marietta did violate her promise not to tell about the DA. She alone activated the jinx.
I like Chemyst's description of Hermione's actions: ...she had the foresight to anticipate potential problems and include a jinx.
I do agree that, in HBP, Hermione allowed her personal feelings to influence her use of magic. I found it interesting that she took issue with 1) what she believes is Harry's use of Felix on Ron; 2) his use of Muffliato! which seems relatively harmless; and 3) his use of the HBP's potion "augmentations," when she herself used magic that most likely affected the outcome of the Quidditch try-outs. I also found it humorous that she exacted a bit of revenge on Ron for Lavender.
Hermione's spells and actions in HBP actually seem like things regular kids might do if they had magical powers. We have simply developed higher expectations for Hermione and Harry. I do find it interesting that Hermione doesn't seem that bothered by her own actions when she is so bugged by Harry's.
If Hermione set a curse to kill whoever broke it, then she would have killed them.
Well, technically the stool-pigeon would have killed herself. Once again, Chemyst has said it well: It was Marietta's personal choice that determined her outcome. After all, she didn't have to squeal. I know some have suggested that Marietta was given Veritaserum by Umbridge. If this was the case, however, why did she stop talking as soon as she saw the pimples pop out on her face? Wouldn't the Veritaserum have forced her to talk, regardless?
Solitaire
Weeny Owl - Sep 2, 2006 8:48 pm (#2041 of 2486)
I think we could all agree that some of Hermione's actions have been questionable, but whose haven't?
Is there really anyone in real life who hasn't done something that was morally or ethically questionable?
We can hardly expenct teens to be what we ourselves aren't.
Harry, Hermione, Ron, the twins, Percy, and even Dumbledore have all done things that I find to be wrong, but JKR is writing these characters in a realistic way, and to make them other than what their peers would be would make her books awful.
Hermione is a young girl who wants to please authority figures while at the same time protecting her friends. She hasn't done anything that someone her age in the real world wouldn't do and still be accepted as being a good person. Good people can still do things that aren't up to par, but what Hermione does under normal circumstances and what she might do under unusual circumstances aren't always going to be one and the same.
timrew - Sep 3, 2006 3:17 pm (#2042 of 2486)
Pimples-Death? Pimples-Death? Oh, what a choice!?
Ludicrous Patents Office - Sep 3, 2006 4:31 pm (#2043 of 2486)
You can't excuse everything by saying these are kids. Die Zimzicke
I agree. It is part of growing up to make mistakes and learn from them. Sometimes it takes many years to learn from them. Sometimes learning means getting caught and punished. Hermione is developing and learning how to use a conscious. She tends to use the "end justifies the means" philosophy.
I think there is a bit of humor from Jo with the pimples. What could possibly be more devastating to teen-agers than pimples? It seems to me they are slowly fading. LPO
Die Zimtzicke - Sep 3, 2006 5:35 pm (#2044 of 2486)
Sorry. Disfiguring someone for life over something they did when they were sixteen does not necessarily indicate that you are a good person as I see it.
Steve Newton - Sep 3, 2006 6:18 pm (#2045 of 2486)
I think that the point is more that it doesn't make you a bad person. The reason for such action is very important. Protecting yourself and others would seem to be a very good reason.
Madame Pomfrey - Sep 3, 2006 7:38 pm (#2046 of 2486)
I don't think Marietta is scared for life,psychologically maybe,hopefully she will always remember her blunder.The fact that she can wear makeup may indicate that the pimples are fading.I think Hermione was right on.
Weeny Owl - Sep 3, 2006 9:13 pm (#2047 of 2486)
Marietta wouldn't have ended up with pimples had she kept her mouth shut as she agreed to.
I do believe it is relevant to say that these kids and their actions are different than an adult's would be.
I can't believe anyone on the face of this earth past, present, or future could say that his/her choices would be that different than Hermione's under the exact same circumstances.
How many of us have friends who are castigated in the newspapers or have teachers who physically torture students? How many of us have friends whose parents were murdered by a madman and who have watched a fellow student murdered?
I don't approve of Hermione's actions in regards to Ron and the Quidditch tryouts, but when she's protecting a group of people whose purpose is defending themselves, then pimples just don't seem to matter that much.
wynnleaf - Sep 3, 2006 9:32 pm (#2048 of 2486)
Funny how a "horribly disfigured" face of purple pustules that no one seems to be able to cure, in spite of all the wizarding abilities to cure practically anything with a potion or spell, as now so nicely become so mundane as "pimples." A number of recent posters are using much more palatable and "nice" descriptions of Hermione's hex.
Solitaire - Sep 3, 2006 9:34 pm (#2049 of 2486)
Just wondering, because I can't find the spot ... where in the book does it say Marietta is "horribly disfigured"?
wynnleaf - Sep 3, 2006 9:38 pm (#2050 of 2486)
The Centaur and the Sneak
As Marietta raised her head, Fudge leapt backward in shock, nearly landing himself in the fire. He cursed and stamped on the hem of his cloak, which had started to smoke, and Marietta gave a wail and pulled the neck of her robes right up to her eyes, but not before the whole room had seen that her face was horribly disfigured by a series of close-set purple pustules that had spread across her nose and cheeks to form the word "SNEAK."
Notice Fudge was so shocked he leapt backward -- that was not just a bad case of pimples.
And it was horribly disfiguring.
Hermione set a hidden jinx to horribly disfigure the person that broke the contract. It's certainly better than death. But let's not mince words. It wasn't a case of pimples.
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Solitaire - Sep 3, 2006 9:42 pm (#2051 of 2486)
Thanks! Of course, I still feel she deserved what she got. She apparently knew she'd violated the agreement, because she'd stopped talking the minute it happened and had not spoken since ...
The fact that Dumbledore never took any action or attempted to intervene in this situation--even though he had nearly a year to do so--is important, I think. I'm sure we will find out more in book 7.
Solitaire
Weeny Owl - Sep 4, 2006 2:30 am (#2052 of 2486)
Horribly disfigured or not, the main characters know it's a war, and with an authority figure deliberately hampering everyone's chances of defending themselves, precautions had to be taken. Perhaps Hermione should have warned the signers as to what would happen, but they did all know that they had agreed not to discuss the DA. If Marietta had kept her word, she wouldn't have been in that predicament.
Madame Pomfrey - Sep 4, 2006 6:36 am (#2053 of 2486)
If Marietta was able to rush to Madame Pomfrey and have her Sneak Face righted,I don't think she would have learned anything.Hermione put out a message that you don't mess with the DA which I consider junior to The Order.
How would The Order have handled a traitor?
Weeney Owl, I agree with your post #2047.I didn't appove of Hermione's use of the confundus charm either.
LooneyLuna - Sep 4, 2006 8:19 am (#2054 of 2486)
How would The Order have handled a traitor?
Interesting question, Madame Pomfrey. I think Sirius and Lupin answered that in POA when they were going to kill Pettigrew for being a traitor/spy. But I'm not sure if that's how Dumbledore would have handled the situation.
As for Marietta, I'm sure her hex pustules were reduced to pimples by the St. Mungo's staff. She might always have a "scar" and need to wear make up to cover up. I think this is an excellent question for JKR because the answer wouldn't spoil the ending of Book 7.
I'm on the fence about Hermione's actions with the contract. I still feel she should have warned the people signing the contract that if they betrayed the DA, there would be consequences. She did not give them a choice.
wynnleaf - Sep 4, 2006 8:42 am (#2055 of 2486)
I'm on the fence about Hermione's actions with the contract. I still feel she should have warned the people signing the contract that if they betrayed the DA, there would be consequences. She did not give them a choice.
In fact, if Hermione had told the group about the jinx, Marietta would likely never have joined, nor anyone else with major reservations. And if she had joined, she'd have been a lot less likely to tell anyone.
If Hermione had been a little more interested in really gaurding against people revealing the group, rather than just in getting in her jinx without any one having the opportunity to object, she might have truly protected the DA.
Mrs Brisbee - Sep 4, 2006 9:56 am (#2056 of 2486)
Wynnleaf: In fact, if Hermione had told the group about the jinx, Marietta would likely never have joined, nor anyone else with major reservations. And if she had joined, she'd have been a lot less likely to tell anyone.
If Hermione had been a little more interested in really guarding against people revealing the group, rather than just in getting in her jinx without any one having the opportunity to object, she might have truly protected the DA.
I think this might be Hermione prioritizing, in a Hermione kind of way. I find it similar to the House Elf thing, where Hermione was busy hiding elf clothes in the Gryffindor Common Room in an attempt to trick them into freedom. Hermione was dead wrong to do this, but I think her feeling was that freedom ranked above all else.
In the case of the DA, I think Hermione wants to ensure that as many people as possible learn DADA, so they will be able to protect themselves in the coming war (I believe that was the stated purpose of the group, though I don't have my book handy to double check). So the protection of the DA actually took a back seat to the formation of the DA. Had she mentioned the jinx, the die-hard believers would have signed on, but maybe many others wouldn't have. They would have had a small, exclusive, and well-protected club, but I don't think that is what Hermione was aiming for.
Choices - Sep 4, 2006 10:08 am (#2057 of 2486)
Wynnleaf - "Funny how a "horribly disfigured" face of purple pustules that no one seems to be able to cure, in spite of all the wizarding abilities to cure practically anything with a potion or spell..."
Makes me wonder if they were really trying. Sort of like how the teachers couldn't get rid of the twins fireworks or the swamp they left behind - they left it for Umbridge to tackle. Maybe they wanted to leave the purple pustules there as a lesson for Marietta....Siding with Umbridge and ratting out your friends isn't cool.
LooneyLuna - Sep 4, 2006 10:14 am (#2058 of 2486)
I think this might be Hermione prioritizing, in a Hermione kind of way.
Mrs.Brisbee - I love it! That's a great way of putting it. To me, it also shows that Hermione still needs to mature. At the end of OotP, she's just starting to emerge from the "Know-it-all who will tell you how to live your life" to a "let people decide for themselves" adult. I guess what I would call "The Dumbledore Model."
wynnleaf - Sep 4, 2006 10:26 am (#2059 of 2486)
I don't quite understand why teachers, Pomfrey, or others would want to continue a "lesson" for Marietta when she's been obliviated about the event. What is she now learning? As far as I can see, there's not a lot to learn. "I don't remember anything except now I'm horribly disfigured and everyone says it's because I told on my friends." The only way I could see she'd really learn much from it now is if she had a history of telling on friends or being disloyal to others. Then, even though she wouldn't remember this instance, she'd remember enough from other instances to see that her disloyalty had finally caught up with her. But we have no indication of that.
If, on the other hand, this was the first time that Marietta had ever done anything so disloyal, or broken a contract, etc., then she no longer remembers doing it, or presumably, even her reasoning behind it. Therefore there is no history of disloyalty in her mind that she's learning to correct.
Um, and in case someone wonders, yes we do have evidence that obliviation of memories is permanent.
Die Zimtzicke - Sep 4, 2006 3:57 pm (#2060 of 2486)
Yes, that's the point. At this stage, the girl doesn't even know why she is "horribly disfigured", and she's presumably out of school, since she was a 7th year in HBP. We have no evidence her horrible disfigurement has been reduced to pimples. That's just plain NOT TRUE. We know she's trying to hide it with heavy makeup, but how successful that is, isn't clearly discussed. I would have thought her parents would have tried everything by now. It's been over a year.
It was not a contract. It was not presented as a contract. Terms were not discussed. Hermione was wrong as I see it. She was just as wrong as she was when she tried to trick the house elves and dumped all of the work on Dobby. She was just as wrong as she was when she used the centaurs.
She's a newcomer to the wizrding world and she thinks she knows everything about it better than everyone else just because she read some books. She doesn't. She can't. Experience still counts for something.
Steve Newton - Sep 4, 2006 6:05 pm (#2061 of 2486)
"It was not presented as a contract."
I think that it was. Everyone knew that by signing they were agreeing not to tell anyone, especially Umbridge, about the DA. Sounds like a contract to me. (That is not an exact quote but it is close.
The exact line from chapter 16, OOTP: "So if you sign, you're agreeing not to tell Umbridge--or anyone else--what we're up to."
It still sounds like a contract to me.
Solitaire - Sep 4, 2006 8:39 pm (#2062 of 2486)
Once again, Dumbledore was present in the office that day and saw Marietta's face. He also knew about Shacklebolt's spell to modify Marietta's memory. He had a year between that day and the time he died to do something about it--or direct Hermione to do something about it--but he didn't. Why not?
I certainly do not consider Dumbledore thoughtless or cruel or even unconcerned about his students. I don't think he would allow Marietta to suffer unjustly with no idea why. Just because we have not been told, isn't it possible that Dumbledore talked to Marietta (off-camera, of course) about the pimples and her actions? Harry isn't the only student to have been in Dumbledore's office. At the Hog's Head meeting, Terry Boot said one of the portraits in Dumbledore's office had told him about Harry having used GG's sword to kill the Basilisk when he was in there the previous year. I think it may be possible that Dumbledore has talked to Marietta.
Solitaire
Honour - Sep 5, 2006 4:04 am (#2063 of 2486)
Exactly Steve, an agreement was made and a contract signed. Marietta broke the contract and the agreement she made to her fellow DA members, and now she has to deal with the consequences of her actions, full stop already. Marietta proved that she is an untrustworthy and unhonorable young person. So what if she is/was only 16. Harry, Ron and Hermione would not have put Marietta in the risky position that she placed them and the rest of the DA. Pimples/Death. I think she got off easy!
Now, Marietta has the chance to prove that she has learnt her lesson, she'll either apologise and I would think that the pimples will heal, or JKR has them already healed by book 7 (and the Marietta bleeding heart brigade can breathe again), or JKR/Marietta shows us that she is really a nasty little miss and becomes a DE like Draco, let's see how far JKR pushes the envelope in this little sub-plot?
rambkowalczyk - Sep 5, 2006 6:03 am (#2064 of 2486)
In fact, if Hermione had told the group about the jinx, Marietta would likely never have joined, nor anyone else with major reservations. And if she had joined, she'd have been a lot less likely to tell anyone. Wynnleaf
I just wonder if outright telling the group would have been wise. Because if Marietta didn't join the group, she still could have told Umbridge about it later on. She could have gotten Cho to tell where the meetings were held and then could have told Umbridge and not face any consequences at all.
Although I generally agree with wynnleaf on the issue, I will admit that there is an important point made by the hardliners. That is there are some deeds that cannot be taken back and although the consequences are harsh it is the way things are. Life is unfair.
Madame Pomfrey - Sep 5, 2006 7:53 am (#2065 of 2486)
The same thing crossed my mind,Rambkowalczyk. Had Hermione told that it was a contract before hand,I see no reason why Marietta would keep quiet.She would have still snitched.We don't know why after 6 mo.she snitched. Dumbledore didn't reprimand Hermione for her actions that we know of,so perhaps he felt Hermione was right in doing this, being that this is war.I feel certain that Dumbledore would have questioned Marietta though.
Dumbledore told the student body beforehand that putting ones name in the GoF constituted a binding magical contract,Hermione didn't. What would happen if one of the champions withdrew from the Triwizard Tournament? Perhaps.. the word CHICKEN in pimples acoss their face.
wynnleaf - Sep 5, 2006 8:01 am (#2066 of 2486)
Hm, rambkowalczyk, you do have a point. Once everyone had come to the initial meeting, they all knew that the DA would become a group. So anyone leaving that initial meeting without joining could have informed Umbridge. However, they would only have known that the DA existed. At that point, there was no decree (I think) that such a group couldn't exist. Anyone not a member would not know about future meetings of the DA (after the decree banning such groups), nor where the DA met, nor when, etc. I'm not sure that such a person would know for sure who was leading the group once it got started.
So if Marietta had been told originally about the hex and had not joined, she wouldn't have been able to tell Umbridge much, other than that such a group had been formed at one point, and who had been there at the initial meeting.
However, if Hermione's motive was to entrap anyone who happened to come to the initial meeting (and I don't think it was her motive), that would have been quite dishonorable -- to have people come to an informational meeting and entrap them into joining with a punishment if they backed out.
I should be clear about something. I think Marietta's actions were very, very wrong. I have to admit, it's the kind of thing I could easily see Percy doing, had he been of the age to be there at the time. I don't like Percy and I don't like Marietta. Percy has less excuse to be the way he is, as his parents didn't encourage that kind of attitude and he had a lot more evidence of the realities of what the MOM was really like than Marietta ever got.
But that doesn't mean I think that Hermione's actions were right. I think it's easy to look at the HP characters in black and white. Often we're set up to accept whatever the "good guys" do as "good" just because they're on the right side, and supposedly have good motives. We're to see the "bad guys" actions as "bad" because they're on the wrong side. In HP, it's not just LV's side that's the "bad" side; the Ministry is generally seen as another "bad" side. Anyone supporting whoever is the Minister, Umbridge, or of their ilk are considered to be practically as bad an enemy as anyone supporting LV.
But we see everything from Harry's viewpoint. We know what Harry knows. We've "seen" Harry confront Voldemort. We've seen death eaters at work. We know everything Dumbledore tells the students at the end of GOF is true. We know Harry really saw a dementor on Privet Drive. We know he wasn't crazy when he said LV was back. We know Dumbledore may act really eccentric, but we know he's not crazy and his statements about LV are true.
But most of the WW knows no such thing.
When Fudge, at the end of GOF, wants to question Harry, DD won't let him. That's understandable to us. But look at Fudge. He's supposed to go out and just assume that based on the word of what Dumbledore has told him of a 14 year old kid who seems to act very strangely, that LV has returned. According to DD, Fudge should simply take his word for it.
Certainly Fudge should have not had Barty, Jr kissed by the dementors. But at the time, all he knew was that this really crazy guy had been alive and escaped from Azkaban, had impersonated Moody for a year (and Dumbledore, in his wisdom, hadn't known), and had somehow caused the death of Crouch, Sr. and Cedric. Sure Fudge made a mistake. But I'm not completely sure why Dumbledore looks at him and says something like he never really knew Fudge, yet seemed to have no such qualms about Sirius and Lupin when they were willing to kill Pettigrew as soon as they captured him. Why is it so less understandable that Fudge would immediately have Barty, Jr. kissed, than it was that Lupin and Sirius would plan to kill Peter immediately?
Anyway -- back to my point which is that Harry, Ron and Hermione have special knowledge no one else has. There's no particular reason why all of the students should trust Dumbledore over Umbridge, other than their own experiences with DD in the past. And the students are quite well aware that DD has been willing to allow his students to face lots of dangers in the past. DD is obviously strangely eccentric.
By the time Marietta told on the DA, the DE's had escaped from Azkaban. So even the WW had to admit that there was danger out there. But there's quite a leap from knowing that there are evil murderers in one's world (hey, that's always true, right?), to deciding that knowledge of their existence makes it okay to defy school and government rules to participate in a group to engage in banned studies.
But at the time Hermione set the hidden jinx, most of the students had no strong evidences to support believing Dumbledore over the MOM.
I'm simply pointing out that as bad as Marietta's actions were, we view them from a different perspective of knowing, far better than most of the students, just how bad the threat was. I believe this makes our judgement of Marietta much more harsh than perhaps it should be, therefore a horribly disfiguring jinx doesn't seem so wrong to many. But I also think, given that Hermione had the same knowledge we do, that her own judgments were based on her own knowledge of the danger, but without taking into consideration that most of the students involved did not have the same view she did -- even if they wanted to join the DA.
If she wanted a hex or jinx as a deterrent, she needed to inform people of it ahead of time. If she wanted a hex or jinx as an identifier of the person who broke the contract, she didn't need to necessarily use something that would horribly disfigure the person for the foreseeable future. The fact that she used a horribly disfiguring jinx as a hidden punishment for breaking the contract seems to me unnecessary for the task of identifying the betrayer, and an overly punitive action -- one more rooted in vengence than in expedience.
rambkowalczyk - Sep 5, 2006 9:22 pm (#2067 of 2486)
I will preface this by saying I agree with about 95% of your (wynnleaf's) last post. The rest is just nitpicking.
For starters, I believe that JKR meant for Marietta to be guilty of snitching on Harry to Umbridge. There is no imperious curse, no veritaserum, and possibly no real pressure from her mother. I consider it unlikely that Marietta had ethical issues defying Umbridges edicts. As some would argue why didn't she just report it to Flitwick.
I also don't believe that the majority of students would have realized they were signing a magical contract although informally they were told that by signing this paper they were agreeing not to tell Umbridge.
Hermione's actions don't bother me all that much. The jinx on the paper made it possible to find out who the traitor is so an innocent person doesn't get accused. After all when Umbridge put up her decree banning school organizations unless she approved, Harry and Ron both thought Zecharius betrayed them already.
I'm also not that bothered by Hermione brewing Polyjuice potion, although to a neutral adult it was a very dangerous thing that Hermione did. Were it not for the fact that she was a clever witch, she could have seriously harmed Harry and Ron. And as wynnleaf pointed out there was a lab explosion that could have hurt someone. She was threatened by Draco at least implicitly, so she felt drastic action was taken.
I do agree with Solitaire that Dumbledore did speak to Marietta about what happened and I wouldn't be surprised if he suggested to Marietta to settle this with Harry.
I do hope that this little tidbit is not a little tidbit, but is used by JKR to show that sometimes the good guys can be a little bit too righteous and that it can be as hurtful as anything the bad guys do.
Vulture - Sep 9, 2006 1:53 pm (#2068 of 2486)
Edited Sep 9, 2006 2:48 pm
However, if Hermione's motive was to entrap anyone who happened to come to the initial meeting (and I don't think it was her motive), that would have been quite dishonorable -- to have people come to an informational meeting and entrap them into joining with a punishment if they backed out. (wynnleaf [/b]- Sep 5, 2006 8:01 am (#2066))
I don't think it was simply an informational meeting, because by the end, everyone had signed and committed themselves to the D.A.
Also, I don't think it's exactly entrapment _ at least, I don't think it was entrapment into joining because Hermione made very clear that anyone who signed the list was agreeing to keep the D.A. secret from Umbridge. The seriousness of her look and manner can be judged by the immediate reaction of the others _ there were objections and even a discussion about the position such secrecy put the Prefects in as regards authority.
I won't go into detail just now, but I personally have my own reasons for agreeing with Hermione's decision not to broadcast about the Jinx, and I think knowledge of punishment is irrelevant to Marietta's (and everyone else's) duty not to betray comrades to whom a solemn promise has been given.
But with hindsight, it might have been better if Hermione had told Harry and Ron the full details about the Jinx from the start: when they were signing, Marietta "gave Cho a reproachful look", and because we know that Harry noticed, it's just possible that _ knowing about the Jinx _ he might have stopped Marietta from signing unless he was sure of her commitment. It's not likely, but possible. I say "with hindsight", because, of course, there was no special reason for Hermione to be watching Marietta at that stage, whereas Harry was noticing anything going on around Cho.
Nevertheless, in the end, it was up to Marietta herself not to join something if she didn't feel 100% about it _ I know all the objections, but Hermione made clear that a 100% attitude was what was required.
At this stage, the girl doesn't even know why she is "horribly disfigured", and she's presumably out of school, since she was a 7th year in HBP. (Die Zimtzicke [/b]- Sep 4, 2006 3:57 pm (#2060))
I think it might be worth posting a question on the "What would you ask JKR?" thread as to whether all Memory Modification spells are permanent. (I don't know if JKR ever looks in there, though she has said in the past that she likes visiting the Lexicon.)
There's no canon evidence for what I'm about to say, but (unless it can be proven that all Memory Modifications are permanent) my gut feeling is that Kingsley's hex was a temporary thing. Firstly, I think the issue of Marietta's treachery is meant to be clear _ she betrayed the D.A. and got punished, and knows why. Secondly, Kingsley's hex was a very rushed thing _ I doubt if he was able to pick and choose what to blank out; he probably just did a general blank-out spell. That would be consistent with the blank look in Marietta's eyes in the office, which didn't last. If Dumbledore hadn't stopped Umbridge from roughing up Marietta, I've a feeling that Kingsley's spell would have become obvious to Umbridge.
===================================================
I hope to post a message soon about Hermione's leadership during Book 5 (not just on the Marietta question, but generally). Cheers for now !!
Vulture - Oct 10, 2006 4:51 pm (#2069 of 2486)
Well, I was going to apologise for interrupting, but I see that no-one has posted for more than a month (and the last one was me !!).
=========================================================================
Anyway _ sorry if this is a completely-discussed-and-finished question which ye are all bored with, but I personally haven't seen any discussion of it:
Why have we seen no hint of Hermione, with all her brains, doing any Legilimency or Occlumency _ or even trying to learn about it ?
OK _ in Book 5, I appreciate that it was a new topic, and one which, moreover, was only being taught to Harry. But I would have thought that Hermione's intellectual curiosity would have led her to find out something about it by the end of Book 6. After all, this is a girl who reads up all sorts of stuff during her holidays, never mind her school year.
Given the above, I find it a little surprising that she hadn't mastered Legilimency or Occlumency by midway through 6th year _ and she could then have taught Harry, or at least tried to.
I was just thinking about whether she might have asked Dumbledore about Occlumency _ given that Dumbledore, in Book 5, said that it would have been better if he had taught Harry himself _ and that prompts me to wonder: just how much has Harry told her (and Ron) about his last conversation (if we can call it that !!) with Dumbledore ?
But anyway, I'd be interested in opinions on Hermione's virtual silence about Legilimency and Occlumency.
juliebug - Oct 10, 2006 5:36 pm (#2070 of 2486)
Occlumency and Legilimency seem to be things one can't learn from a book. Hermione tends not to have much interest in such things.
Choices - Oct 10, 2006 6:24 pm (#2071 of 2486)
I think Hermione has her plate full - S.P.E.W. and taking all the courses in POA, and helping Harry with the Triwizard (Viktor and the Yule Ball), etc. I don't think she has time to think about learning anything that she can't study out of books. She needs to be able to help Harry whenever he needs her - after all, she is one of the officially designated "side-kicks". Harry's needs are the most important. Besides, those subjects don't seem important for the average students at Hogwarts - they are not taught that we know of.
Dumbledore and Voldemort would need to know them, and Snape as a spy would, and Harry would to shut out Voldemort (he can already get into his mind), but I don't think the average wizard would need to know them.
Vulture - Oct 10, 2006 8:48 pm (#2072 of 2486)
Occlumency and Legilimency seem to be things one can't learn from a book. Hermione tends not to have much interest in such things. (juliebug [/b]- Oct 10, 2006 5:36 pm (#2070))
Yes, I suppose that is the most likely answer, but I was hoping that (a) Hermione might have broadened her intellectual curiosity beyond learning books by heart, and/or (b) read some reference to Occlumency and Legilimency somewhere.
Also, in Book 5, she was pretty good in assessing what Harry needed and helping him with it. She was always badgering him about Occlumency. I just thought she might have got interested enough to try it herself.
I think Hermione has her plate full - S.P.E.W. and taking all the courses in POA, and helping Harry with the Triwizard (Viktor and the Yule Ball), etc. I don't think she has time to think about learning anything that she can't study out of books. She needs to be able to help Harry whenever he needs her - after all, she is one of the officially designated "side-kicks". Harry's needs are the most important. Besides, those subjects don't seem important for the average students at Hogwarts - they are not taught that we know of. (Choices [/b]- Oct 10, 2006 6:24 pm (#2071))
Well, I'm not thinking so much of Book 4 as of the period between the Ministry battle in Book 5 to before her quarrel with Ron in Book 6.
Dumbledore and Voldemort would need to know them, and Snape as a spy would, and Harry would to shut out Voldemort (he can already get into his mind), but I don't think the average wizard would need to know them. (Choices [/b]- Oct 10, 2006 6:24 pm (#2071))
But would you call Hermione an average witch ? Besides, if the Trio are serious about Harry's declaration that he won't return to Hogwarts, you'd think it would occur to them that at least one of them is going to need Occlumency, if not Legilimency as well. Harry's fight with Snape made that painfully obvious _ his only chance with Voldemort is if the latter is fool enough to duel with his own wand again.
Steve Newton - Oct 11, 2006 6:49 am (#2073 of 2486)
Since ancient magic saved Harry back at Godric's Hollow I think that Hermione has been learning special stuff in her Ancient Runes class that will be very helpful. I think that is where she is putting her efforts.
I think that she should also be putting some thought into dealing with Rita. I don't see Rita sitting idly by even if Hermione says that she will never tell anyone the dreadful secret. If I were Rita I'd want Hermione dead or something really good on her.
haymoni - Oct 11, 2006 8:53 am (#2074 of 2486)
Vulture - Hermione wears her emotions on her sleeve. I wonder if she would be able to shut things down enough to do Occlumency.
Jo says that Draco is very good at that because he has shut down so many of his emotions already.
wynnleaf - Oct 12, 2006 9:12 am (#2075 of 2486)
Vulture - Hermione wears her emotions on her sleeve. I wonder if she would be able to shut things down enough to do Occlumency.
I agree that Hermione probably wouldn't be good at occlumency.
As regards legilimency, I would think that would be an ability that Hermione would consider sort of unethical -- trying to see into other people's thoughts. Not that I think Hermione is a truly very ethical person, but I think she'd have the sort of knee-jerk reaction that legilimency was a "bad" thing to do to someone else, so she wouldn't want to learn it. Just a guess of course.
But also, I think that JKR doesn't want Harry to be learning a great deal about this line of magic from Hermione. And maybe she doesn't want us to learn it either yet. So she might not want sections of text where Hermione is repeating explanations of occlumency and legilmency from books.
Similarly, you'd think that Hermione would investigate the in's and out's of an Unbreakable Vow, rather than depend on Ron's recollections of an incident that occurred when he was about 5. But the biggest reason Hermione didn't investigate any further is probably because JKR didn't want us to learn any more about it.
Vulture - Oct 12, 2006 5:58 pm (#2076 of 2486)
Just to be clear, it was Haymoni who said that "Hermione wears her emotions on her sleeve", not me. I'm not so sure.
In any case, I think Hermione would be better at it than Harry.
The problem is, at least one of the Trio is going to have to learn both Occlumency and Legilimency, pretty damn fast. Harry's fight with Snape showed that. If they don't, they might as well sit in a freshly-dug grave and wait for Lord V to shovel in the earth.
journeymom - Oct 12, 2006 11:02 pm (#2077 of 2486)
I don't think Hermione would be too bad at occlumency. If she were interested in it. She has an organized mind, is emotionally a bit more mature than Harry. Perhaps she wears her emotions on her sleeve compared to Snape. But he's an adult and has 20 years practice on her. And he's considered exceptional. If the plot required Hermione to learn occlumency, I think she'd do well.
juliebug - Oct 13, 2006 4:51 am (#2078 of 2486)
As Occlumency seems to be something one must be taught (we've discussed thoughts that it can't be learned from a book,} I don't know where or how Hermione would be able to learn it. Back when Snape was Harry's teacher, I was under the impression that he taught Harry because he had to. I can't imagine him willingly taking on Hermione as a student. Dumbledore was too busy to give lessons. Who does that leave?
haymoni - Oct 13, 2006 5:29 am (#2079 of 2486)
Edited Oct 13, 2006 6:28 am
I think we are done with anyone learning Occlumency. The only person that matters is Harry and JKR said he wouldn't be good at it.
Harry knows that Draco is adept at Occlumency. There could come a time where Draco lets Harry "in" so that Harry knows he is telling the truth, but I kind of hope Occlumency goes the way of Polyjuice Potion - enough!
Hermione is organized to be sure, but she is not calm - she gets excited and rushes off to the library; she can get pretty angry and resorts to violence and uses innocent birds! She didn't respond well to the Boggart in Lupin's test. I just don't know how she would do under the pressure of someone like Voldy or Bella or Snape trying to pry into her mind.
Perhaps if she had time to truly study it, she could develop the talent, but I just don't think there is time.
Die Zimtzicke - Oct 13, 2006 5:56 am (#2080 of 2486)
I agree with Haymoni. Harry is the only one it could do any good, as I see it. And he isn't the type to be good at it. So if Hemrione is going to help him anymore, it will be in a different way.
wynnleaf - Oct 13, 2006 7:15 am (#2081 of 2486)
I think we are done with anyone learning Occlumency. The only person that matters is Harry and JKR said he wouldn't be good at it.
I would agree with you Haymoni, were it not for Snape's shouted comment to Harry at the end of HBP where he says that Harry needs to learn to keep his "mouth shut and his mind closed" (I think that was the phrase).
It's not because Snape said it that I think it's important. But in that context, I think it must be important or JKR wouldn't have included it. Harry's in the midst of a dueling situation which he can't win because he's basically "telegraphing" his intentions and his opponent can react to what he's going to do before he's even done it.
Since JKR was pointing that out through Snape's remark, it seems to me that this will be something that Harry will have to correct in book 7. Maybe he can't do occlumency, but on some level he'll have to learn not to telegraph his intentions or LV will know exactly what he's going to do when they next meet face to face.
However, I don't really think this is going to be something Hermione helps him with, or we'd have seen Hermione learning more about it already. Or then again, maybe she could learn more about it in book 7.
haymoni - Oct 13, 2006 8:24 am (#2082 of 2486)
We may see Harry trying to close his mind and I definitely think he needs to work on the non-verbal stuff, but Jo says he really can't shut things down, so he might not be too successful.
I wonder how Hermione will handle travelling around with Harry if she can't access the Hogwarts Library every time she has a question?
valuereflection - Oct 13, 2006 8:50 am (#2083 of 2486)
It would be fun to read about Hermione discovering a library for the wizarding world outside of Hogwarts. Or maybe she could create one. (I can dream, can't I?)
Chemyst - Oct 13, 2006 9:29 am (#2084 of 2486)
... but Jo says he (Harry) really can't shut things down, so he might not be too successful. -haymoni
Maybe this should go on a predictions thread, but... Draco is good at this. Draco is also with Snape. Occlumency could play into a climatic moment where these characters have to set aside their personal hatred for each other to defeat Voldemort. I like your idea of one letting another "in." In which case Hermione, (this being her thread and all,) is relegated to urging Harry to not be controlled by hate. And though it's likely Harry shall face LV alone, collective support will still be important.
S.E. Jones - Oct 13, 2006 2:20 pm (#2085 of 2486)
wynnleaf --I would agree with you Haymoni, were it not for Snape's shouted comment to Harry at the end of HBP where he says that Harry needs to learn to keep his "mouth shut and his mind closed" (I think that was the phrase).
It's not because Snape said it that I think it's important. But in that context, I think it must be important or JKR wouldn't have included it. Harry's in the midst of a dueling situation which he can't win because he's basically "telegraphing" his intentions and his opponent can react to what he's going to do before he's even done it.
Snape is a fair legilimens as well as being an excellent occlumens, so, yes, Harry learning Occlumency would be good in fighting someone like Voldemort or Snape, but again, this would only really be helpful to Harry as he's the one who's really going to be going toe to toe and face to face with Voldemort, so I don't think it will really do any good for Hermione to learn the subject. Oddly enough, though, it's Harry mind being open and his emotions being so raw that prevents Voldemort from using Legilimency on him, so I don't think he really has any need to learn to shut his emotions down, even if he does need to learn a bit more tact (as well as how to do a spell nonverbally). I definitely agree that we've seen the last of Occlumency, but I don't think we've seen the last of Legilimency (as getting in Voldemort's head, or allowing Voldemort into his head, is one of the easiest/surest ways for Harry to hurt Voldemort). Still, maybe this discussion should be moved to another thread.
I agree, though, that Hermione's helping will come in areas other than Occlumency/Legilimency.
xray - Mar 9, 2007 4:29 pm (#2086 of 2486)
In case anyone's interested, I have a little essay up over at TLC (The Leaky Cauldron) on Hermione's Career after Hogwarts.
In short, I think Hermione's going to end up working in Fred and George's joke shop for a while, perhaps as a partner. The essay explains all my reasoning. It's a fun little theory and it's all based on canon.
Enjoy!
Jadelollipop - Mar 10, 2007 12:02 pm (#2087 of 2486)
A very interesting theory Xray...quite convincing too...
Laura W - Mar 10, 2007 12:48 pm (#2088 of 2486)
I seriously doubt if this is what is going to transpire, but I must commend you on a well-laid-out argument, xray.
Laura
xray - Mar 10, 2007 4:05 pm (#2089 of 2486)
Thank you both!
journeymom - Mar 11, 2007 8:19 pm (#2090 of 2486)
Great essay!
I still think she'll be a barrister.
Gatorgrad1991 - Mar 12, 2007 8:03 am (#2091 of 2486)
Journeymom: I still think she'll be a barrister.
Me too; I always picture Hermione doing something related to the law when she leaves Hogwarts.
I think the fact that Hermione mastered non-verbal spells faster than either Harry or Ron will be a major contribution in Book 7. I can't see her coming out all of a sudden as a great Legilmens or Occlumens, since there have been no indications of this in canon up to this point.
Bible Spice - Apr 1, 2007 12:19 pm (#2092 of 2486)
Chemyst: Hermione is relegated to urging Harry to not be controlled by hate.
Hmmm. Shades of _A Wrinkle in Time_. I'm not sure if you envision Hermione on the side lines of a final battle as the sort of agape-cheerleader in Lengel's book, but I would find it very disappointing here.
Journeymom: I still think she'll be a barrister.
My hope is that she will move forward with the Elvish Welfare movement (thought perhaps not S.P.E.W. in particular). I confess that I find it very distasteful how the books do *not* seem to have a problem with the *system* of elvish enslavement, only with "bad masters".
Solitaire - May 6, 2007 8:59 pm (#2093 of 2486)
Over on the Founders of Hogwarts thread, I posted the following: I suppose one could say that wanting only the most intellectually gifted students is rather elitist ... but it hardly compares to Slytherin's prejudiced attitudes.
This started me thinking about Hermione ...
She told Harry once that the Sorting Hat had considered placing her in Ravenclaw. I wonder ... did she attempt to influence the Hat, as Harry did? If so, did it decide in favor of or against her inclination? She doesn't really say. She did say she was pleased to be in Gryffindor because Dumbledore had been in Gryffindor ... but was that her first choice?
I have often wondered what might have happened in Harry's stay at Hogwarts if Hermione had landed in Ravenclaw instead of Gryffindor. She has played a pivotal role in nearly every crisis in which Harry has been involved.
- She figured out the logic puzzle in PS/SS.
- She gave Harry the information about the Basilisk and the pipes (via the crumpled paper in her petrified hand).
- She used the time-turner to save Buckbeak, Sirius, and Harry.
- She helped Harry with the Summoning Charm and 4-Points Spell.
- She helped them lose Umbridge (although this was not a great use of her intellect, given the reaction of the Centaurs)
In HBP Hermione was not with Harry in his Big Adventure. Would things have turned out differently had she been there? How far will she go with Harry in Book 7? Will she be there for the Final Adventure?
Solitaire
journeymom - May 6, 2007 10:25 pm (#2094 of 2486)
Great observations, Solitaire. You're right, she wasn't there at the cave with Harry, though neither was Ron. I hadn't thought of it that way. I can't imagine how things would have turned out had she been there, there's no way it could have happened that way. But many of us have agreed that while Hermione (and Ron) will help Harry nearly every step of the way, Harry will take the last step by himself. She'll be there for him when it's over and help him figure out what just happened and help him come to terms with it.
Solitaire - May 7, 2007 6:56 am (#2095 of 2486)
Thanks, Journeymom. When I look back, I guess one of my questions is whether the Hat put Hermione in Gryffindor because it knew Harry would need her. Just exactly how much power does the Hat wield?
Solitaire
Mrs Brisbee - May 7, 2007 7:05 am (#2096 of 2486)
I don't think the hat put Hermione in Gryffindor because of Harry. She and Hearry weren't friends at that point. She was friends with Neville, but she was sorted before either of them.
I think she was put into Gryffindor on her own merits. Didn't she say something about Gryffindor House sounding the best, with Ravenclaw being second? Hermione values bravery above brains, I think, and that's why she would be there, despite her Ravenclaw quality smarts.
Die Zimtzicke - May 7, 2007 9:21 am (#2097 of 2486)
I have a real problem with the hat putting kids who know next-to-nothing about the wizarding world where they think they want to go. How does it know they really understand what they want at age eleven? It should put them where it thinks they are best, based on the traits in them it detects, period.
With Harry, you can at least say it was seeing Voldemort inside him, but you can't say that with Hermione. I don't know why it chose Gryffindor, except to advance the plot. I guess Jo felt she had to explain why Hermione was so smart, but not in Ravenclaw, so she made it a decision that could have gone either way.
Mrs Brisbee - May 7, 2007 9:42 am (#2098 of 2486)
Hermione is brave. She's not afraid to speak up. She will do things that are risky if she thinks them worthwhile-- she's just not as brazen or foolhardy as some of the other Gryffindors. She organized the unpopular SPEW, so she isn't afraid to fight for what she thinks is right even if it is an unpopular cause. She organized the DA, which could have gotten them all thrown out of school. That convoluted Polyjuice plot in CoS was her idea. As a Prefect, she stood up to Fred and George while Ron waffled. She goes with Harry on his dangerous missions, starting in their first year. And she herself called Harry a great wizard in PS/SS-- not because he possessed super powerful magic, but because he was fighting for what was right, which proves right there her feelings about being brave enough to do the right thing. I can think of lots of other times Hermione showed bravery.
If the Sorting Hat saw both bravery and brains in her, but also saw that bravery was the trait she admired more and would like to cultivate, then why not put her in Gryffindor? I don't think she was misplaced, although she would have undoubtedly done well in Ravenclaw. Sometimes the Sorting Hat took awhile to place a new student, so I think it safe to say many of them had strong qualities that suggested several Houses might be a good fit.
journeymom - May 7, 2007 10:15 am (#2099 of 2486)
"I have a real problem with the hat putting kids who know next-to-nothing about the wizarding world where they think they want to go. How does it know they really understand what they want at age eleven? It should put them where it thinks they are best, based on the traits in them it detects, period. "
My impression is that they don't need to know anything about the wizarding world as that's not the criteria the Hat uses to place them. I think the Hat does put them where it thinks they are best suited, based upon the personality traits it detects in them, period. The Hat's first speech describes what the Founders were looking for, and aside from Slytherin's pureblooded prejudice, none of the criteria had anything to do with magic but were universal human traits. Besides, Slytherin's prejudice is the fault in the House system that needs to be fixed. It's an important plot point.
The Hat doesn't know if they understand what they want, and that's not one of its criteria for sorting. Others here have observed, and I agree, that the Hat seems to use a fantasy, fairy-tale like Myers-Briggs personality quiz to sort the students. It doesn't ask the students bunch of questions, but it senses what's in them. Many people take the Myers-Briggs test when they're teenagers, and then again when their adults, and the results are the same, even if what they want changes several times, throughout the rest of their lives.
"With Harry, you can at least say it was seeing Voldemort inside him, but you can't say that with Hermione. I don't know why it chose Gryffindor, except to advance the plot.
Well, this is fiction. Everything, absolutely every act, is there to advance the plot. Perhaps the problem you have is that some of JKR's points are worked into the plot with more finesse, more realistically, than other plot points. Specifically, Hermione's sorting seems unrealistic or awkward, to you. If so, your problem is with the author, not the Hat.
I guess Jo felt she had to explain why Hermione was so smart, but not in Ravenclaw, so she made it a decision that could have gone either way. "
Yes, that's it, exactly.
journeymom - May 7, 2007 12:20 pm (#2100 of 2486)
Too late to edit, above.
Regarding the curtains on Mary Grand Pre's cover of PS and DH, somebody (multiple somebodies, probably) suggested this is evocative of a play, beginning and end. This makes sense to me.
Die Zim, you believe the sorting process is too arbitrary and plot driven. This got me thinking, because the more symbolism, simile, analogy, mythology and external structure I find in the HP stories, the more it seems as though all the characters are merely players playing a part. Some characters more multidimensional than others.
Maybe I haven't analyzed any story as much as I have the HP story. It could be that all stories are like this, I don't know. But it does seem as though JKR has a overriding goal she's working her way toward, and she's got her characters on a strict path, and therefore they go where she wants them to go, do what she wants them to do. Meanwhile she doesn't necessarily fill out their characters fully. In her dream she mentioned, "...trying to make the people around me say lines I had pre-arranged for them."
"All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players.
They have their exits and their entrances,
And one man in his time plays many parts,
His acts being seven ages." -Shakespeare, As You Like It
Thanks! Of course, I still feel she deserved what she got. She apparently knew she'd violated the agreement, because she'd stopped talking the minute it happened and had not spoken since ...
The fact that Dumbledore never took any action or attempted to intervene in this situation--even though he had nearly a year to do so--is important, I think. I'm sure we will find out more in book 7.
Solitaire
Weeny Owl - Sep 4, 2006 2:30 am (#2052 of 2486)
Horribly disfigured or not, the main characters know it's a war, and with an authority figure deliberately hampering everyone's chances of defending themselves, precautions had to be taken. Perhaps Hermione should have warned the signers as to what would happen, but they did all know that they had agreed not to discuss the DA. If Marietta had kept her word, she wouldn't have been in that predicament.
Madame Pomfrey - Sep 4, 2006 6:36 am (#2053 of 2486)
If Marietta was able to rush to Madame Pomfrey and have her Sneak Face righted,I don't think she would have learned anything.Hermione put out a message that you don't mess with the DA which I consider junior to The Order.
How would The Order have handled a traitor?
Weeney Owl, I agree with your post #2047.I didn't appove of Hermione's use of the confundus charm either.
LooneyLuna - Sep 4, 2006 8:19 am (#2054 of 2486)
How would The Order have handled a traitor?
Interesting question, Madame Pomfrey. I think Sirius and Lupin answered that in POA when they were going to kill Pettigrew for being a traitor/spy. But I'm not sure if that's how Dumbledore would have handled the situation.
As for Marietta, I'm sure her hex pustules were reduced to pimples by the St. Mungo's staff. She might always have a "scar" and need to wear make up to cover up. I think this is an excellent question for JKR because the answer wouldn't spoil the ending of Book 7.
I'm on the fence about Hermione's actions with the contract. I still feel she should have warned the people signing the contract that if they betrayed the DA, there would be consequences. She did not give them a choice.
wynnleaf - Sep 4, 2006 8:42 am (#2055 of 2486)
I'm on the fence about Hermione's actions with the contract. I still feel she should have warned the people signing the contract that if they betrayed the DA, there would be consequences. She did not give them a choice.
In fact, if Hermione had told the group about the jinx, Marietta would likely never have joined, nor anyone else with major reservations. And if she had joined, she'd have been a lot less likely to tell anyone.
If Hermione had been a little more interested in really gaurding against people revealing the group, rather than just in getting in her jinx without any one having the opportunity to object, she might have truly protected the DA.
Mrs Brisbee - Sep 4, 2006 9:56 am (#2056 of 2486)
Wynnleaf: In fact, if Hermione had told the group about the jinx, Marietta would likely never have joined, nor anyone else with major reservations. And if she had joined, she'd have been a lot less likely to tell anyone.
If Hermione had been a little more interested in really guarding against people revealing the group, rather than just in getting in her jinx without any one having the opportunity to object, she might have truly protected the DA.
I think this might be Hermione prioritizing, in a Hermione kind of way. I find it similar to the House Elf thing, where Hermione was busy hiding elf clothes in the Gryffindor Common Room in an attempt to trick them into freedom. Hermione was dead wrong to do this, but I think her feeling was that freedom ranked above all else.
In the case of the DA, I think Hermione wants to ensure that as many people as possible learn DADA, so they will be able to protect themselves in the coming war (I believe that was the stated purpose of the group, though I don't have my book handy to double check). So the protection of the DA actually took a back seat to the formation of the DA. Had she mentioned the jinx, the die-hard believers would have signed on, but maybe many others wouldn't have. They would have had a small, exclusive, and well-protected club, but I don't think that is what Hermione was aiming for.
Choices - Sep 4, 2006 10:08 am (#2057 of 2486)
Wynnleaf - "Funny how a "horribly disfigured" face of purple pustules that no one seems to be able to cure, in spite of all the wizarding abilities to cure practically anything with a potion or spell..."
Makes me wonder if they were really trying. Sort of like how the teachers couldn't get rid of the twins fireworks or the swamp they left behind - they left it for Umbridge to tackle. Maybe they wanted to leave the purple pustules there as a lesson for Marietta....Siding with Umbridge and ratting out your friends isn't cool.
LooneyLuna - Sep 4, 2006 10:14 am (#2058 of 2486)
I think this might be Hermione prioritizing, in a Hermione kind of way.
Mrs.Brisbee - I love it! That's a great way of putting it. To me, it also shows that Hermione still needs to mature. At the end of OotP, she's just starting to emerge from the "Know-it-all who will tell you how to live your life" to a "let people decide for themselves" adult. I guess what I would call "The Dumbledore Model."
wynnleaf - Sep 4, 2006 10:26 am (#2059 of 2486)
I don't quite understand why teachers, Pomfrey, or others would want to continue a "lesson" for Marietta when she's been obliviated about the event. What is she now learning? As far as I can see, there's not a lot to learn. "I don't remember anything except now I'm horribly disfigured and everyone says it's because I told on my friends." The only way I could see she'd really learn much from it now is if she had a history of telling on friends or being disloyal to others. Then, even though she wouldn't remember this instance, she'd remember enough from other instances to see that her disloyalty had finally caught up with her. But we have no indication of that.
If, on the other hand, this was the first time that Marietta had ever done anything so disloyal, or broken a contract, etc., then she no longer remembers doing it, or presumably, even her reasoning behind it. Therefore there is no history of disloyalty in her mind that she's learning to correct.
Um, and in case someone wonders, yes we do have evidence that obliviation of memories is permanent.
Die Zimtzicke - Sep 4, 2006 3:57 pm (#2060 of 2486)
Yes, that's the point. At this stage, the girl doesn't even know why she is "horribly disfigured", and she's presumably out of school, since she was a 7th year in HBP. We have no evidence her horrible disfigurement has been reduced to pimples. That's just plain NOT TRUE. We know she's trying to hide it with heavy makeup, but how successful that is, isn't clearly discussed. I would have thought her parents would have tried everything by now. It's been over a year.
It was not a contract. It was not presented as a contract. Terms were not discussed. Hermione was wrong as I see it. She was just as wrong as she was when she tried to trick the house elves and dumped all of the work on Dobby. She was just as wrong as she was when she used the centaurs.
She's a newcomer to the wizrding world and she thinks she knows everything about it better than everyone else just because she read some books. She doesn't. She can't. Experience still counts for something.
Steve Newton - Sep 4, 2006 6:05 pm (#2061 of 2486)
"It was not presented as a contract."
I think that it was. Everyone knew that by signing they were agreeing not to tell anyone, especially Umbridge, about the DA. Sounds like a contract to me. (That is not an exact quote but it is close.
The exact line from chapter 16, OOTP: "So if you sign, you're agreeing not to tell Umbridge--or anyone else--what we're up to."
It still sounds like a contract to me.
Solitaire - Sep 4, 2006 8:39 pm (#2062 of 2486)
Once again, Dumbledore was present in the office that day and saw Marietta's face. He also knew about Shacklebolt's spell to modify Marietta's memory. He had a year between that day and the time he died to do something about it--or direct Hermione to do something about it--but he didn't. Why not?
I certainly do not consider Dumbledore thoughtless or cruel or even unconcerned about his students. I don't think he would allow Marietta to suffer unjustly with no idea why. Just because we have not been told, isn't it possible that Dumbledore talked to Marietta (off-camera, of course) about the pimples and her actions? Harry isn't the only student to have been in Dumbledore's office. At the Hog's Head meeting, Terry Boot said one of the portraits in Dumbledore's office had told him about Harry having used GG's sword to kill the Basilisk when he was in there the previous year. I think it may be possible that Dumbledore has talked to Marietta.
Solitaire
Honour - Sep 5, 2006 4:04 am (#2063 of 2486)
Exactly Steve, an agreement was made and a contract signed. Marietta broke the contract and the agreement she made to her fellow DA members, and now she has to deal with the consequences of her actions, full stop already. Marietta proved that she is an untrustworthy and unhonorable young person. So what if she is/was only 16. Harry, Ron and Hermione would not have put Marietta in the risky position that she placed them and the rest of the DA. Pimples/Death. I think she got off easy!
Now, Marietta has the chance to prove that she has learnt her lesson, she'll either apologise and I would think that the pimples will heal, or JKR has them already healed by book 7 (and the Marietta bleeding heart brigade can breathe again), or JKR/Marietta shows us that she is really a nasty little miss and becomes a DE like Draco, let's see how far JKR pushes the envelope in this little sub-plot?
rambkowalczyk - Sep 5, 2006 6:03 am (#2064 of 2486)
In fact, if Hermione had told the group about the jinx, Marietta would likely never have joined, nor anyone else with major reservations. And if she had joined, she'd have been a lot less likely to tell anyone. Wynnleaf
I just wonder if outright telling the group would have been wise. Because if Marietta didn't join the group, she still could have told Umbridge about it later on. She could have gotten Cho to tell where the meetings were held and then could have told Umbridge and not face any consequences at all.
Although I generally agree with wynnleaf on the issue, I will admit that there is an important point made by the hardliners. That is there are some deeds that cannot be taken back and although the consequences are harsh it is the way things are. Life is unfair.
Madame Pomfrey - Sep 5, 2006 7:53 am (#2065 of 2486)
The same thing crossed my mind,Rambkowalczyk. Had Hermione told that it was a contract before hand,I see no reason why Marietta would keep quiet.She would have still snitched.We don't know why after 6 mo.she snitched. Dumbledore didn't reprimand Hermione for her actions that we know of,so perhaps he felt Hermione was right in doing this, being that this is war.I feel certain that Dumbledore would have questioned Marietta though.
Dumbledore told the student body beforehand that putting ones name in the GoF constituted a binding magical contract,Hermione didn't. What would happen if one of the champions withdrew from the Triwizard Tournament? Perhaps.. the word CHICKEN in pimples acoss their face.
wynnleaf - Sep 5, 2006 8:01 am (#2066 of 2486)
Hm, rambkowalczyk, you do have a point. Once everyone had come to the initial meeting, they all knew that the DA would become a group. So anyone leaving that initial meeting without joining could have informed Umbridge. However, they would only have known that the DA existed. At that point, there was no decree (I think) that such a group couldn't exist. Anyone not a member would not know about future meetings of the DA (after the decree banning such groups), nor where the DA met, nor when, etc. I'm not sure that such a person would know for sure who was leading the group once it got started.
So if Marietta had been told originally about the hex and had not joined, she wouldn't have been able to tell Umbridge much, other than that such a group had been formed at one point, and who had been there at the initial meeting.
However, if Hermione's motive was to entrap anyone who happened to come to the initial meeting (and I don't think it was her motive), that would have been quite dishonorable -- to have people come to an informational meeting and entrap them into joining with a punishment if they backed out.
I should be clear about something. I think Marietta's actions were very, very wrong. I have to admit, it's the kind of thing I could easily see Percy doing, had he been of the age to be there at the time. I don't like Percy and I don't like Marietta. Percy has less excuse to be the way he is, as his parents didn't encourage that kind of attitude and he had a lot more evidence of the realities of what the MOM was really like than Marietta ever got.
But that doesn't mean I think that Hermione's actions were right. I think it's easy to look at the HP characters in black and white. Often we're set up to accept whatever the "good guys" do as "good" just because they're on the right side, and supposedly have good motives. We're to see the "bad guys" actions as "bad" because they're on the wrong side. In HP, it's not just LV's side that's the "bad" side; the Ministry is generally seen as another "bad" side. Anyone supporting whoever is the Minister, Umbridge, or of their ilk are considered to be practically as bad an enemy as anyone supporting LV.
But we see everything from Harry's viewpoint. We know what Harry knows. We've "seen" Harry confront Voldemort. We've seen death eaters at work. We know everything Dumbledore tells the students at the end of GOF is true. We know Harry really saw a dementor on Privet Drive. We know he wasn't crazy when he said LV was back. We know Dumbledore may act really eccentric, but we know he's not crazy and his statements about LV are true.
But most of the WW knows no such thing.
When Fudge, at the end of GOF, wants to question Harry, DD won't let him. That's understandable to us. But look at Fudge. He's supposed to go out and just assume that based on the word of what Dumbledore has told him of a 14 year old kid who seems to act very strangely, that LV has returned. According to DD, Fudge should simply take his word for it.
Certainly Fudge should have not had Barty, Jr kissed by the dementors. But at the time, all he knew was that this really crazy guy had been alive and escaped from Azkaban, had impersonated Moody for a year (and Dumbledore, in his wisdom, hadn't known), and had somehow caused the death of Crouch, Sr. and Cedric. Sure Fudge made a mistake. But I'm not completely sure why Dumbledore looks at him and says something like he never really knew Fudge, yet seemed to have no such qualms about Sirius and Lupin when they were willing to kill Pettigrew as soon as they captured him. Why is it so less understandable that Fudge would immediately have Barty, Jr. kissed, than it was that Lupin and Sirius would plan to kill Peter immediately?
Anyway -- back to my point which is that Harry, Ron and Hermione have special knowledge no one else has. There's no particular reason why all of the students should trust Dumbledore over Umbridge, other than their own experiences with DD in the past. And the students are quite well aware that DD has been willing to allow his students to face lots of dangers in the past. DD is obviously strangely eccentric.
By the time Marietta told on the DA, the DE's had escaped from Azkaban. So even the WW had to admit that there was danger out there. But there's quite a leap from knowing that there are evil murderers in one's world (hey, that's always true, right?), to deciding that knowledge of their existence makes it okay to defy school and government rules to participate in a group to engage in banned studies.
But at the time Hermione set the hidden jinx, most of the students had no strong evidences to support believing Dumbledore over the MOM.
I'm simply pointing out that as bad as Marietta's actions were, we view them from a different perspective of knowing, far better than most of the students, just how bad the threat was. I believe this makes our judgement of Marietta much more harsh than perhaps it should be, therefore a horribly disfiguring jinx doesn't seem so wrong to many. But I also think, given that Hermione had the same knowledge we do, that her own judgments were based on her own knowledge of the danger, but without taking into consideration that most of the students involved did not have the same view she did -- even if they wanted to join the DA.
If she wanted a hex or jinx as a deterrent, she needed to inform people of it ahead of time. If she wanted a hex or jinx as an identifier of the person who broke the contract, she didn't need to necessarily use something that would horribly disfigure the person for the foreseeable future. The fact that she used a horribly disfiguring jinx as a hidden punishment for breaking the contract seems to me unnecessary for the task of identifying the betrayer, and an overly punitive action -- one more rooted in vengence than in expedience.
rambkowalczyk - Sep 5, 2006 9:22 pm (#2067 of 2486)
I will preface this by saying I agree with about 95% of your (wynnleaf's) last post. The rest is just nitpicking.
For starters, I believe that JKR meant for Marietta to be guilty of snitching on Harry to Umbridge. There is no imperious curse, no veritaserum, and possibly no real pressure from her mother. I consider it unlikely that Marietta had ethical issues defying Umbridges edicts. As some would argue why didn't she just report it to Flitwick.
I also don't believe that the majority of students would have realized they were signing a magical contract although informally they were told that by signing this paper they were agreeing not to tell Umbridge.
Hermione's actions don't bother me all that much. The jinx on the paper made it possible to find out who the traitor is so an innocent person doesn't get accused. After all when Umbridge put up her decree banning school organizations unless she approved, Harry and Ron both thought Zecharius betrayed them already.
I'm also not that bothered by Hermione brewing Polyjuice potion, although to a neutral adult it was a very dangerous thing that Hermione did. Were it not for the fact that she was a clever witch, she could have seriously harmed Harry and Ron. And as wynnleaf pointed out there was a lab explosion that could have hurt someone. She was threatened by Draco at least implicitly, so she felt drastic action was taken.
I do agree with Solitaire that Dumbledore did speak to Marietta about what happened and I wouldn't be surprised if he suggested to Marietta to settle this with Harry.
I do hope that this little tidbit is not a little tidbit, but is used by JKR to show that sometimes the good guys can be a little bit too righteous and that it can be as hurtful as anything the bad guys do.
Vulture - Sep 9, 2006 1:53 pm (#2068 of 2486)
Edited Sep 9, 2006 2:48 pm
However, if Hermione's motive was to entrap anyone who happened to come to the initial meeting (and I don't think it was her motive), that would have been quite dishonorable -- to have people come to an informational meeting and entrap them into joining with a punishment if they backed out. (wynnleaf [/b]- Sep 5, 2006 8:01 am (#2066))
I don't think it was simply an informational meeting, because by the end, everyone had signed and committed themselves to the D.A.
Also, I don't think it's exactly entrapment _ at least, I don't think it was entrapment into joining because Hermione made very clear that anyone who signed the list was agreeing to keep the D.A. secret from Umbridge. The seriousness of her look and manner can be judged by the immediate reaction of the others _ there were objections and even a discussion about the position such secrecy put the Prefects in as regards authority.
I won't go into detail just now, but I personally have my own reasons for agreeing with Hermione's decision not to broadcast about the Jinx, and I think knowledge of punishment is irrelevant to Marietta's (and everyone else's) duty not to betray comrades to whom a solemn promise has been given.
But with hindsight, it might have been better if Hermione had told Harry and Ron the full details about the Jinx from the start: when they were signing, Marietta "gave Cho a reproachful look", and because we know that Harry noticed, it's just possible that _ knowing about the Jinx _ he might have stopped Marietta from signing unless he was sure of her commitment. It's not likely, but possible. I say "with hindsight", because, of course, there was no special reason for Hermione to be watching Marietta at that stage, whereas Harry was noticing anything going on around Cho.
Nevertheless, in the end, it was up to Marietta herself not to join something if she didn't feel 100% about it _ I know all the objections, but Hermione made clear that a 100% attitude was what was required.
At this stage, the girl doesn't even know why she is "horribly disfigured", and she's presumably out of school, since she was a 7th year in HBP. (Die Zimtzicke [/b]- Sep 4, 2006 3:57 pm (#2060))
I think it might be worth posting a question on the "What would you ask JKR?" thread as to whether all Memory Modification spells are permanent. (I don't know if JKR ever looks in there, though she has said in the past that she likes visiting the Lexicon.)
There's no canon evidence for what I'm about to say, but (unless it can be proven that all Memory Modifications are permanent) my gut feeling is that Kingsley's hex was a temporary thing. Firstly, I think the issue of Marietta's treachery is meant to be clear _ she betrayed the D.A. and got punished, and knows why. Secondly, Kingsley's hex was a very rushed thing _ I doubt if he was able to pick and choose what to blank out; he probably just did a general blank-out spell. That would be consistent with the blank look in Marietta's eyes in the office, which didn't last. If Dumbledore hadn't stopped Umbridge from roughing up Marietta, I've a feeling that Kingsley's spell would have become obvious to Umbridge.
===================================================
I hope to post a message soon about Hermione's leadership during Book 5 (not just on the Marietta question, but generally). Cheers for now !!
Vulture - Oct 10, 2006 4:51 pm (#2069 of 2486)
Well, I was going to apologise for interrupting, but I see that no-one has posted for more than a month (and the last one was me !!).
=========================================================================
Anyway _ sorry if this is a completely-discussed-and-finished question which ye are all bored with, but I personally haven't seen any discussion of it:
Why have we seen no hint of Hermione, with all her brains, doing any Legilimency or Occlumency _ or even trying to learn about it ?
OK _ in Book 5, I appreciate that it was a new topic, and one which, moreover, was only being taught to Harry. But I would have thought that Hermione's intellectual curiosity would have led her to find out something about it by the end of Book 6. After all, this is a girl who reads up all sorts of stuff during her holidays, never mind her school year.
Given the above, I find it a little surprising that she hadn't mastered Legilimency or Occlumency by midway through 6th year _ and she could then have taught Harry, or at least tried to.
I was just thinking about whether she might have asked Dumbledore about Occlumency _ given that Dumbledore, in Book 5, said that it would have been better if he had taught Harry himself _ and that prompts me to wonder: just how much has Harry told her (and Ron) about his last conversation (if we can call it that !!) with Dumbledore ?
But anyway, I'd be interested in opinions on Hermione's virtual silence about Legilimency and Occlumency.
juliebug - Oct 10, 2006 5:36 pm (#2070 of 2486)
Occlumency and Legilimency seem to be things one can't learn from a book. Hermione tends not to have much interest in such things.
Choices - Oct 10, 2006 6:24 pm (#2071 of 2486)
I think Hermione has her plate full - S.P.E.W. and taking all the courses in POA, and helping Harry with the Triwizard (Viktor and the Yule Ball), etc. I don't think she has time to think about learning anything that she can't study out of books. She needs to be able to help Harry whenever he needs her - after all, she is one of the officially designated "side-kicks". Harry's needs are the most important. Besides, those subjects don't seem important for the average students at Hogwarts - they are not taught that we know of.
Dumbledore and Voldemort would need to know them, and Snape as a spy would, and Harry would to shut out Voldemort (he can already get into his mind), but I don't think the average wizard would need to know them.
Vulture - Oct 10, 2006 8:48 pm (#2072 of 2486)
Occlumency and Legilimency seem to be things one can't learn from a book. Hermione tends not to have much interest in such things. (juliebug [/b]- Oct 10, 2006 5:36 pm (#2070))
Yes, I suppose that is the most likely answer, but I was hoping that (a) Hermione might have broadened her intellectual curiosity beyond learning books by heart, and/or (b) read some reference to Occlumency and Legilimency somewhere.
Also, in Book 5, she was pretty good in assessing what Harry needed and helping him with it. She was always badgering him about Occlumency. I just thought she might have got interested enough to try it herself.
I think Hermione has her plate full - S.P.E.W. and taking all the courses in POA, and helping Harry with the Triwizard (Viktor and the Yule Ball), etc. I don't think she has time to think about learning anything that she can't study out of books. She needs to be able to help Harry whenever he needs her - after all, she is one of the officially designated "side-kicks". Harry's needs are the most important. Besides, those subjects don't seem important for the average students at Hogwarts - they are not taught that we know of. (Choices [/b]- Oct 10, 2006 6:24 pm (#2071))
Well, I'm not thinking so much of Book 4 as of the period between the Ministry battle in Book 5 to before her quarrel with Ron in Book 6.
Dumbledore and Voldemort would need to know them, and Snape as a spy would, and Harry would to shut out Voldemort (he can already get into his mind), but I don't think the average wizard would need to know them. (Choices [/b]- Oct 10, 2006 6:24 pm (#2071))
But would you call Hermione an average witch ? Besides, if the Trio are serious about Harry's declaration that he won't return to Hogwarts, you'd think it would occur to them that at least one of them is going to need Occlumency, if not Legilimency as well. Harry's fight with Snape made that painfully obvious _ his only chance with Voldemort is if the latter is fool enough to duel with his own wand again.
Steve Newton - Oct 11, 2006 6:49 am (#2073 of 2486)
Since ancient magic saved Harry back at Godric's Hollow I think that Hermione has been learning special stuff in her Ancient Runes class that will be very helpful. I think that is where she is putting her efforts.
I think that she should also be putting some thought into dealing with Rita. I don't see Rita sitting idly by even if Hermione says that she will never tell anyone the dreadful secret. If I were Rita I'd want Hermione dead or something really good on her.
haymoni - Oct 11, 2006 8:53 am (#2074 of 2486)
Vulture - Hermione wears her emotions on her sleeve. I wonder if she would be able to shut things down enough to do Occlumency.
Jo says that Draco is very good at that because he has shut down so many of his emotions already.
wynnleaf - Oct 12, 2006 9:12 am (#2075 of 2486)
Vulture - Hermione wears her emotions on her sleeve. I wonder if she would be able to shut things down enough to do Occlumency.
I agree that Hermione probably wouldn't be good at occlumency.
As regards legilimency, I would think that would be an ability that Hermione would consider sort of unethical -- trying to see into other people's thoughts. Not that I think Hermione is a truly very ethical person, but I think she'd have the sort of knee-jerk reaction that legilimency was a "bad" thing to do to someone else, so she wouldn't want to learn it. Just a guess of course.
But also, I think that JKR doesn't want Harry to be learning a great deal about this line of magic from Hermione. And maybe she doesn't want us to learn it either yet. So she might not want sections of text where Hermione is repeating explanations of occlumency and legilmency from books.
Similarly, you'd think that Hermione would investigate the in's and out's of an Unbreakable Vow, rather than depend on Ron's recollections of an incident that occurred when he was about 5. But the biggest reason Hermione didn't investigate any further is probably because JKR didn't want us to learn any more about it.
Vulture - Oct 12, 2006 5:58 pm (#2076 of 2486)
Just to be clear, it was Haymoni who said that "Hermione wears her emotions on her sleeve", not me. I'm not so sure.
In any case, I think Hermione would be better at it than Harry.
The problem is, at least one of the Trio is going to have to learn both Occlumency and Legilimency, pretty damn fast. Harry's fight with Snape showed that. If they don't, they might as well sit in a freshly-dug grave and wait for Lord V to shovel in the earth.
journeymom - Oct 12, 2006 11:02 pm (#2077 of 2486)
I don't think Hermione would be too bad at occlumency. If she were interested in it. She has an organized mind, is emotionally a bit more mature than Harry. Perhaps she wears her emotions on her sleeve compared to Snape. But he's an adult and has 20 years practice on her. And he's considered exceptional. If the plot required Hermione to learn occlumency, I think she'd do well.
juliebug - Oct 13, 2006 4:51 am (#2078 of 2486)
As Occlumency seems to be something one must be taught (we've discussed thoughts that it can't be learned from a book,} I don't know where or how Hermione would be able to learn it. Back when Snape was Harry's teacher, I was under the impression that he taught Harry because he had to. I can't imagine him willingly taking on Hermione as a student. Dumbledore was too busy to give lessons. Who does that leave?
haymoni - Oct 13, 2006 5:29 am (#2079 of 2486)
Edited Oct 13, 2006 6:28 am
I think we are done with anyone learning Occlumency. The only person that matters is Harry and JKR said he wouldn't be good at it.
Harry knows that Draco is adept at Occlumency. There could come a time where Draco lets Harry "in" so that Harry knows he is telling the truth, but I kind of hope Occlumency goes the way of Polyjuice Potion - enough!
Hermione is organized to be sure, but she is not calm - she gets excited and rushes off to the library; she can get pretty angry and resorts to violence and uses innocent birds! She didn't respond well to the Boggart in Lupin's test. I just don't know how she would do under the pressure of someone like Voldy or Bella or Snape trying to pry into her mind.
Perhaps if she had time to truly study it, she could develop the talent, but I just don't think there is time.
Die Zimtzicke - Oct 13, 2006 5:56 am (#2080 of 2486)
I agree with Haymoni. Harry is the only one it could do any good, as I see it. And he isn't the type to be good at it. So if Hemrione is going to help him anymore, it will be in a different way.
wynnleaf - Oct 13, 2006 7:15 am (#2081 of 2486)
I think we are done with anyone learning Occlumency. The only person that matters is Harry and JKR said he wouldn't be good at it.
I would agree with you Haymoni, were it not for Snape's shouted comment to Harry at the end of HBP where he says that Harry needs to learn to keep his "mouth shut and his mind closed" (I think that was the phrase).
It's not because Snape said it that I think it's important. But in that context, I think it must be important or JKR wouldn't have included it. Harry's in the midst of a dueling situation which he can't win because he's basically "telegraphing" his intentions and his opponent can react to what he's going to do before he's even done it.
Since JKR was pointing that out through Snape's remark, it seems to me that this will be something that Harry will have to correct in book 7. Maybe he can't do occlumency, but on some level he'll have to learn not to telegraph his intentions or LV will know exactly what he's going to do when they next meet face to face.
However, I don't really think this is going to be something Hermione helps him with, or we'd have seen Hermione learning more about it already. Or then again, maybe she could learn more about it in book 7.
haymoni - Oct 13, 2006 8:24 am (#2082 of 2486)
We may see Harry trying to close his mind and I definitely think he needs to work on the non-verbal stuff, but Jo says he really can't shut things down, so he might not be too successful.
I wonder how Hermione will handle travelling around with Harry if she can't access the Hogwarts Library every time she has a question?
valuereflection - Oct 13, 2006 8:50 am (#2083 of 2486)
It would be fun to read about Hermione discovering a library for the wizarding world outside of Hogwarts. Or maybe she could create one. (I can dream, can't I?)
Chemyst - Oct 13, 2006 9:29 am (#2084 of 2486)
... but Jo says he (Harry) really can't shut things down, so he might not be too successful. -haymoni
Maybe this should go on a predictions thread, but... Draco is good at this. Draco is also with Snape. Occlumency could play into a climatic moment where these characters have to set aside their personal hatred for each other to defeat Voldemort. I like your idea of one letting another "in." In which case Hermione, (this being her thread and all,) is relegated to urging Harry to not be controlled by hate. And though it's likely Harry shall face LV alone, collective support will still be important.
S.E. Jones - Oct 13, 2006 2:20 pm (#2085 of 2486)
wynnleaf --I would agree with you Haymoni, were it not for Snape's shouted comment to Harry at the end of HBP where he says that Harry needs to learn to keep his "mouth shut and his mind closed" (I think that was the phrase).
It's not because Snape said it that I think it's important. But in that context, I think it must be important or JKR wouldn't have included it. Harry's in the midst of a dueling situation which he can't win because he's basically "telegraphing" his intentions and his opponent can react to what he's going to do before he's even done it.
Snape is a fair legilimens as well as being an excellent occlumens, so, yes, Harry learning Occlumency would be good in fighting someone like Voldemort or Snape, but again, this would only really be helpful to Harry as he's the one who's really going to be going toe to toe and face to face with Voldemort, so I don't think it will really do any good for Hermione to learn the subject. Oddly enough, though, it's Harry mind being open and his emotions being so raw that prevents Voldemort from using Legilimency on him, so I don't think he really has any need to learn to shut his emotions down, even if he does need to learn a bit more tact (as well as how to do a spell nonverbally). I definitely agree that we've seen the last of Occlumency, but I don't think we've seen the last of Legilimency (as getting in Voldemort's head, or allowing Voldemort into his head, is one of the easiest/surest ways for Harry to hurt Voldemort). Still, maybe this discussion should be moved to another thread.
I agree, though, that Hermione's helping will come in areas other than Occlumency/Legilimency.
xray - Mar 9, 2007 4:29 pm (#2086 of 2486)
In case anyone's interested, I have a little essay up over at TLC (The Leaky Cauldron) on Hermione's Career after Hogwarts.
In short, I think Hermione's going to end up working in Fred and George's joke shop for a while, perhaps as a partner. The essay explains all my reasoning. It's a fun little theory and it's all based on canon.
Enjoy!
Jadelollipop - Mar 10, 2007 12:02 pm (#2087 of 2486)
A very interesting theory Xray...quite convincing too...
Laura W - Mar 10, 2007 12:48 pm (#2088 of 2486)
I seriously doubt if this is what is going to transpire, but I must commend you on a well-laid-out argument, xray.
Laura
xray - Mar 10, 2007 4:05 pm (#2089 of 2486)
Thank you both!
journeymom - Mar 11, 2007 8:19 pm (#2090 of 2486)
Great essay!
I still think she'll be a barrister.
Gatorgrad1991 - Mar 12, 2007 8:03 am (#2091 of 2486)
Journeymom: I still think she'll be a barrister.
Me too; I always picture Hermione doing something related to the law when she leaves Hogwarts.
I think the fact that Hermione mastered non-verbal spells faster than either Harry or Ron will be a major contribution in Book 7. I can't see her coming out all of a sudden as a great Legilmens or Occlumens, since there have been no indications of this in canon up to this point.
Bible Spice - Apr 1, 2007 12:19 pm (#2092 of 2486)
Chemyst: Hermione is relegated to urging Harry to not be controlled by hate.
Hmmm. Shades of _A Wrinkle in Time_. I'm not sure if you envision Hermione on the side lines of a final battle as the sort of agape-cheerleader in Lengel's book, but I would find it very disappointing here.
Journeymom: I still think she'll be a barrister.
My hope is that she will move forward with the Elvish Welfare movement (thought perhaps not S.P.E.W. in particular). I confess that I find it very distasteful how the books do *not* seem to have a problem with the *system* of elvish enslavement, only with "bad masters".
Solitaire - May 6, 2007 8:59 pm (#2093 of 2486)
Over on the Founders of Hogwarts thread, I posted the following: I suppose one could say that wanting only the most intellectually gifted students is rather elitist ... but it hardly compares to Slytherin's prejudiced attitudes.
This started me thinking about Hermione ...
She told Harry once that the Sorting Hat had considered placing her in Ravenclaw. I wonder ... did she attempt to influence the Hat, as Harry did? If so, did it decide in favor of or against her inclination? She doesn't really say. She did say she was pleased to be in Gryffindor because Dumbledore had been in Gryffindor ... but was that her first choice?
I have often wondered what might have happened in Harry's stay at Hogwarts if Hermione had landed in Ravenclaw instead of Gryffindor. She has played a pivotal role in nearly every crisis in which Harry has been involved.
- She figured out the logic puzzle in PS/SS.
- She gave Harry the information about the Basilisk and the pipes (via the crumpled paper in her petrified hand).
- She used the time-turner to save Buckbeak, Sirius, and Harry.
- She helped Harry with the Summoning Charm and 4-Points Spell.
- She helped them lose Umbridge (although this was not a great use of her intellect, given the reaction of the Centaurs)
In HBP Hermione was not with Harry in his Big Adventure. Would things have turned out differently had she been there? How far will she go with Harry in Book 7? Will she be there for the Final Adventure?
Solitaire
journeymom - May 6, 2007 10:25 pm (#2094 of 2486)
Great observations, Solitaire. You're right, she wasn't there at the cave with Harry, though neither was Ron. I hadn't thought of it that way. I can't imagine how things would have turned out had she been there, there's no way it could have happened that way. But many of us have agreed that while Hermione (and Ron) will help Harry nearly every step of the way, Harry will take the last step by himself. She'll be there for him when it's over and help him figure out what just happened and help him come to terms with it.
Solitaire - May 7, 2007 6:56 am (#2095 of 2486)
Thanks, Journeymom. When I look back, I guess one of my questions is whether the Hat put Hermione in Gryffindor because it knew Harry would need her. Just exactly how much power does the Hat wield?
Solitaire
Mrs Brisbee - May 7, 2007 7:05 am (#2096 of 2486)
I don't think the hat put Hermione in Gryffindor because of Harry. She and Hearry weren't friends at that point. She was friends with Neville, but she was sorted before either of them.
I think she was put into Gryffindor on her own merits. Didn't she say something about Gryffindor House sounding the best, with Ravenclaw being second? Hermione values bravery above brains, I think, and that's why she would be there, despite her Ravenclaw quality smarts.
Die Zimtzicke - May 7, 2007 9:21 am (#2097 of 2486)
I have a real problem with the hat putting kids who know next-to-nothing about the wizarding world where they think they want to go. How does it know they really understand what they want at age eleven? It should put them where it thinks they are best, based on the traits in them it detects, period.
With Harry, you can at least say it was seeing Voldemort inside him, but you can't say that with Hermione. I don't know why it chose Gryffindor, except to advance the plot. I guess Jo felt she had to explain why Hermione was so smart, but not in Ravenclaw, so she made it a decision that could have gone either way.
Mrs Brisbee - May 7, 2007 9:42 am (#2098 of 2486)
Hermione is brave. She's not afraid to speak up. She will do things that are risky if she thinks them worthwhile-- she's just not as brazen or foolhardy as some of the other Gryffindors. She organized the unpopular SPEW, so she isn't afraid to fight for what she thinks is right even if it is an unpopular cause. She organized the DA, which could have gotten them all thrown out of school. That convoluted Polyjuice plot in CoS was her idea. As a Prefect, she stood up to Fred and George while Ron waffled. She goes with Harry on his dangerous missions, starting in their first year. And she herself called Harry a great wizard in PS/SS-- not because he possessed super powerful magic, but because he was fighting for what was right, which proves right there her feelings about being brave enough to do the right thing. I can think of lots of other times Hermione showed bravery.
If the Sorting Hat saw both bravery and brains in her, but also saw that bravery was the trait she admired more and would like to cultivate, then why not put her in Gryffindor? I don't think she was misplaced, although she would have undoubtedly done well in Ravenclaw. Sometimes the Sorting Hat took awhile to place a new student, so I think it safe to say many of them had strong qualities that suggested several Houses might be a good fit.
journeymom - May 7, 2007 10:15 am (#2099 of 2486)
"I have a real problem with the hat putting kids who know next-to-nothing about the wizarding world where they think they want to go. How does it know they really understand what they want at age eleven? It should put them where it thinks they are best, based on the traits in them it detects, period. "
My impression is that they don't need to know anything about the wizarding world as that's not the criteria the Hat uses to place them. I think the Hat does put them where it thinks they are best suited, based upon the personality traits it detects in them, period. The Hat's first speech describes what the Founders were looking for, and aside from Slytherin's pureblooded prejudice, none of the criteria had anything to do with magic but were universal human traits. Besides, Slytherin's prejudice is the fault in the House system that needs to be fixed. It's an important plot point.
The Hat doesn't know if they understand what they want, and that's not one of its criteria for sorting. Others here have observed, and I agree, that the Hat seems to use a fantasy, fairy-tale like Myers-Briggs personality quiz to sort the students. It doesn't ask the students bunch of questions, but it senses what's in them. Many people take the Myers-Briggs test when they're teenagers, and then again when their adults, and the results are the same, even if what they want changes several times, throughout the rest of their lives.
"With Harry, you can at least say it was seeing Voldemort inside him, but you can't say that with Hermione. I don't know why it chose Gryffindor, except to advance the plot.
Well, this is fiction. Everything, absolutely every act, is there to advance the plot. Perhaps the problem you have is that some of JKR's points are worked into the plot with more finesse, more realistically, than other plot points. Specifically, Hermione's sorting seems unrealistic or awkward, to you. If so, your problem is with the author, not the Hat.
I guess Jo felt she had to explain why Hermione was so smart, but not in Ravenclaw, so she made it a decision that could have gone either way. "
Yes, that's it, exactly.
journeymom - May 7, 2007 12:20 pm (#2100 of 2486)
Too late to edit, above.
Regarding the curtains on Mary Grand Pre's cover of PS and DH, somebody (multiple somebodies, probably) suggested this is evocative of a play, beginning and end. This makes sense to me.
Die Zim, you believe the sorting process is too arbitrary and plot driven. This got me thinking, because the more symbolism, simile, analogy, mythology and external structure I find in the HP stories, the more it seems as though all the characters are merely players playing a part. Some characters more multidimensional than others.
Maybe I haven't analyzed any story as much as I have the HP story. It could be that all stories are like this, I don't know. But it does seem as though JKR has a overriding goal she's working her way toward, and she's got her characters on a strict path, and therefore they go where she wants them to go, do what she wants them to do. Meanwhile she doesn't necessarily fill out their characters fully. In her dream she mentioned, "...trying to make the people around me say lines I had pre-arranged for them."
"All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players.
They have their exits and their entrances,
And one man in his time plays many parts,
His acts being seven ages." -Shakespeare, As You Like It
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wynnleaf - May 9, 2007 2:44 pm (#2101 of 2486)
Well, this is fiction. Everything, absolutely every act, is there to advance the plot. Perhaps the problem you have is that some of JKR's points are worked into the plot with more finesse, more realistically, than other plot points. Specifically, Hermione's sorting seems unrealistic or awkward, to you. If so, your problem is with the author, not the Hat. (journeymom)
Excellent comments that could apply to any number of things we feel are inconsistent, unrealistic, or awkward in HP.
But it does seem as though JKR has a overriding goal she's working her way toward, and she's got her characters on a strict path, and therefore they go where she wants them to go, do what she wants them to do. (journeymom)
Another great observation. I get the feeling that, whether Hermione or any other characters, JKR doesn't often have the experience many writers describe of the characters going off in their own directions, or doing things the author never expected.
Die Zimtzicke - May 9, 2007 4:04 pm (#2102 of 2486)
Jo is different from some writers who do create great characters and let the plot derive somwhat from who the characters become. Jo seems to be more the type who has a plot and the characters are only there to fit in it. She HAS occasionally made changes to her original plot; I know that, so don't get me wrong, but I think a lot of the complaints people have with her characters seeming out of character is that they do whatever is necessary to move the plot, in spite of how they have behaved previously in different situations.
Gatorgrad1991 - May 22, 2007 6:58 am (#2103 of 2486)
Hermione has always seemed to me to be a perfect fit for Gryffindor, mainly because she has tremendous moral and emotional courage. She is far from being a physical coward, but that is not where her real strength lies. I think the Sorting Hat chose extremely well in Hermione's case; although she may be suited to Ravenclaw she has shown herself to be a true Gryffindor.
Solitaire - May 23, 2007 2:19 am (#2104 of 2486)
I do think Hermione has developed courage, but in the very beginning, she was just a bossy, know-it-all buttinski. She tagged along on the midnight duel not because she was interested but because she was ragging on Harry and Ron for going in the first place. I don't think she really got into the game until the Troll business. After that, well ...From that moment on, Hermione Granger became their friend. There are some things you can't share without ending up liking each other, and kknocking out a twelve-foot troll is one of them. JM2K, of course ...
Solitaire
journeymom - May 23, 2007 2:09 pm (#2105 of 2486)
Eww, troll bogeys!
frogface - May 24, 2007 11:53 am (#2106 of 2486)
I do think Hermione has developed courage, but in the very beginning, she was just a bossy, know-it-all buttinski. I disagree with this. I don't think she was just a bossy-know-it-all when she first joined Hogwarts. I think she was just a lonely girl who'd never had many friends, and didn't really know how to interact with other children. She is an only child after all. I think Hermione always had tremendous bravery in her though, after all the Sorting Hat spotting this in her long before the Troll incident, didn't it? Its just that it took Harry and Ron, who are more laid back, to bring that daring and courage out of her. I think Hermione must be tremondously brave, because even though she's very clever and very hard working, her bravery was what the Hat seemed to take note of.
Chemyst - May 24, 2007 12:35 pm (#2107 of 2486)
… and didn't really know how to interact with other children. She is an only child after all.
Yes, she is an only child now. We know JKR said she originally was going to give Hermione a younger sister but did not have room to fit it in. So I am going to make a leap and say that with or without a younger sister, Hermione's personality would still been written to make her socially inept upon her arrival at Hogwarts.
Even though she did not know she was a witch and certainly had not been trained, I'd imagine some of her latent powers would have affected her social life. She probably attended a muggle school for several years before coming to Hogwarts. Being an undiagnosed witch is probably more likely to cause social problems than being an only child would.
journeymom - May 24, 2007 12:37 pm (#2108 of 2486)
James, Sirius and Draco are all onlies, and non of them had/have problems fitting in. You might not like Draco, or the other two for that matter, but none of them were social outcasts.
Solitaire - May 25, 2007 7:12 am (#2109 of 2486)
You are correct, Frogface. She is and was all the things you say. Alas, she was still a bossy, know-it-all buttinski. I think her behavior in PS/SS--in the chapter entitled The Midnight Duel-- is a perfect example of this. I'm not saying her presence wasn't needed (It was!) and I'm not saying she wasn't right (She was).
I think Hermione felt rather insecure when she first entered Hogwarts. Her behavior seemed rather typical of a lot of the bright, insecure children I teach at school. Some just pull into themselves and are afraid to exhibit any of their knowledge for fear of teasing by their less gifted but perhaps more socially adept peers. Others appear to try and compensate for what they may feel--and this is based only on information from some of my kids and their parents--are inadequacies by freely exhibiting the things they DO know. Unfortunately, this often has the opposite effect and the kids are perceived by peers as know-it-alls. This is how I see what happened with Hermione up to the Troll incident. JM2K, but I think it is right, based on similar experiences with my own students of this age. Actually, when Hermione steps up and takes the blame in the Troll incident, something important happens: She makes others (Ron and Harry) come off looking good at her own expense, showing herself capable of making a sacrifice for others. She also shows herself worthy of their friendship ... and they respond by giving it.
I could say more, but if I did, I'd be late for school!
Solitaire
Lina - May 26, 2007 2:26 am (#2110 of 2486)
Journeymom, Sirius wasn't an only child.
I agree, Soli, that Hermione was know-it-all mostly because she felt insecure. I also agree with Chemyst that she must have been compensating her differences from other children by knowledge. I just find it interesting. Both, Harry and Hermione, were afraid of how will they fit among witches and wizards that they knew nothing about their way of life. Yet, they didn't react in the same way to that fear. I guess Hermione just needs a lot of knowledge to feel confident.
xray - May 26, 2007 8:46 am (#2111 of 2486)
Hi Everyone!
I went to Phoenix Rising conference in New Orleans this past week and one of the sessions I attended was a roundtable discussion on Hermione. It was titled Hermione's Helping Hand: How the "Brains" of the Trio has Aided in Harry's Heroic Journey.
Here are some of the things that were discussed:
Do you identify more with Hermione or Luna?
Is Hermione the chosen one? (everyone said no).
Will Hermione die? (Most said no, some said possibly).
Regarding Films: Almost all said they can't stand Emma Watson. Magical Pink, non bushy hair, more and more blonde every movie, low rider jeans, etc, is not Hermione. Most are angry she got all Ron's great lines.
Did she snog Krum? Most said yes.
Did she go further? 2 or 3 said yes, everyone else said no.
What advantages does she have to being Muggleborn?
She has an outsider perspective of the wizarding world. If she was born in a wizarding family she might not be as good a student because she may not try as hard as she does.
How many witch inventors were muggleborn? Is this due to ability to understand logic?
Hermione doesn't take things for granted either. She's very bright.
About her parents... does she tell them everything or hide some things from them? Most agree she is hiding a lot of things.
Are her parents going to be targets in DH?
Ron/Hermione
What is the role of Ron and Hermione's relationship in book 7?
Do you hate Ron? (About half the room didn't like Ron).
Would Hermione love Ron and want to be with him if he got his act together? What about if Ron didn't need her as much as he does. Is Hermione needy of this? i.e. does she need someone else to need her the way Ron does? She needs to be needed.
A couple people agreed that Ron/Hermione will happen in DH but it won't last because Hermione will get frustrated with Ron.
A rebuttal was that Ron will mature and rise to the occasion in book 7.
Moderator thinks "the trio needs to be a couple." They can't function without each other.
Was Hermione too harsh with Marietta Edgcombe and "Sneak?" Everyone said no.
Is Hermione more loyal or does she have a greater fear of failure? Almost all say her fear of failure supersedes her loyalty.
Is Hermione competing against others or against herself? Most say herself.
What about Hermione and the sorting hat? She was on the border between Gryffindor and Ravenclaw, but the hat put her in Gryffindor. We don't know if she chose Gryffindor like Harry did (not slytherin), but we do know that Hermione thought Gryffindor was the best (she said so on the train). We think this was what pushed her into Gryffindor because she thought it was the best of all the houses.
Hermione sees potential problems. She made a huge leap about the basilisk in the pipes.
She thinks very quickly: Centaurs in OotP. She has a ruthless pragmatism. She's a good strategist but doesn't play her hand; she researches everything first.
What were her biggest mistakes? Ron distracts her and fuzzes up her judgment. Hermione can't process her emotions--she can't study for them but it doesn't affect her ability to do magic.
There are two big mistakes she made: one with the House Elves and one with the Centaurs (she said "I knew you would help us" and didn't think of the response). In both cases, her mistakes were made against non-humans.
She has strengths and weaknesses because she's an outsider.
Hermione is the key to bringing in some outside creatures for the final war.
There was also some discussion about Hermione/Snape (lots of the girls there loved this 'ship a lot) and Hermione/Draco. The question the moderator put forth was what makes these ships so attractive in fanfic?
Solitaire - May 26, 2007 9:31 am (#2112 of 2486)
Hermione/Snape and Hermione/Draco? ROTFLOL Since this is not a 'ship thread, I'll leave it at that. I certainly agree that Hermione has gotten Harry off the dime more than once when he has been stalled.
About her relationship with Ron ... I wonder sometimes if she is not as much in love with his family as she is with him. To be sure, she has parents who are alive and love her. Their presence in Diagon Alley also suggests to me that they are accepting of her magical abilities--even if they do not understand them--and that they are also not averse to meeting the people who have become important in her life. However, they do seem unusually willing to allow her to spend nearly all of her free time with the Weasleys from a very early age. Then again, we do not know what has happened with them "off camera." Perhaps they have talked to Dumbledore or McGonagall about Hermione's "cross-over" between the Muggle and magical worlds and have come to understand that the magical world will naturally pull her away at an earlier than usual age. They may feel that she is better off spending her vacation time with the Weasleys in a family atmosphere-where she will receive more supervision and certainly more caring and warmth--than she would be with a girlfriend (if she has one) whose parents might give them too much freedom. Just my thoughts ...
It's interesting to consider her actions with regard to the House-elves and Centaurs. She is so outspoken about how they have been badly treated and rejected by many in the magical world ... yet she attempts to use the Centaurs and she continually offends the House-Elves. I wonder if she has ever stopped to examine her own behavior and attitudes there. She has taken up the "cause" of the House-Elves, even though there does not seem to be a cause just yet. Hermione is still young, however, and she must learn to think farther than her immediate actions to what their effects on her and others might be. I think this is coming, and when she combines her intellect, her magical abilities, and a more mature knowledge of human nature, I believe she will prove to be a very powerful witch.
Solitaire
journeymom - May 26, 2007 10:47 am (#2113 of 2486)
Edited May 26, 2007 11:48 am
Journeymom, Sirius wasn't an only child. D'oh! [Slaps forehead] I do know that.
Do you identify more with Hermione or Luna? A combination of both.
Will Hermione die? (Most said no, some said possibly). I certainly hope not. I vote 'no'.
Regarding Films: Almost all said they can't stand Emma Watson. Magical Pink, non bushy hair, more and more blonde every movie, low rider jeans, etc, is not Hermione. Most are angry she got all Ron's great lines. I love Emma Watson, though I got tired of the eyebrow waving in GoF. I can only hope that was the fault of the director. I don't have a problem with her dressing like a modern day kid when she's not in her school robes. And yes, it's a real shame that she got so many of Ron's great lines.
Did she snog Krum? Isn't this canon? She told Ron she did, didn't she? If so, I think it's hysterical that she got her first kiss before Ron or Harry or Ron did.
Did she go further? Oh, for pity's sake. Of course she didn't. Unless we're counting groping. That's realistic. Kind of fits in the category of 'snogging'. I love that word. Much better than 'making out'.
What advantages does she have to being Muggleborn? Logic. She was the one who solved Snape's (the half-blood) potions riddle. Not that Harry's not logical, but her mind is more disciplined than his is. Somewhere, probably in PS/SS JKR says muggles are more logical than wizards and witches, I believe.
How many witch inventors were muggleborn? Is this due to ability to understand logic? Good question. See answer to above. There's no way to know how many inventors are muggleborn, but that's an interesting thought.
About her parents... does she tell them everything or hide some things from them? Most agree she is hiding a lot of things. Hermione hiding the fact that there is a war going on in the wizarding world is a common point in the fan fic world. It has the ring of truth but I don't think she's hiding anything. She has a hard enough time defying the teachers that she respects. She wouldn't lie to her parents.
Are her parents going to be targets in DH? It's reasonable to think so, but I vote no.
What is the role of Ron and Hermione's relationship in book 7? What will it look like? It will strengthen. What roll? I dunno, serve as a reminder that love and affection is a wonderful thing?
Do you hate Ron? (About half the room didn't like Ron). Heavens, no. I love Ron. Ron's the bomb. I suspect the people who actually hate him (hate is such a strong word), are trying to set Hermione up with somebody else. They conveniently kill Ron off in the final battle so somebody else can swoop in and comfort her. :eyesroll:
Would Hermione love Ron and want to be with him if he got his act together? What about if Ron didn't need her as much as he does. Is Hermione needy of this? i.e. does she need someone else to need her the way Ron does? She needs to be needed. 'Would' she? She already does love Ron and wants to be with him. His act is together, as much as any other teen boy or girl his age. Hermione 'needs' Ron as much as he needs her. And everybody likes to be needed. Ron isn't an incompetent, Hermione is not this super hero.
A couple people agreed that Ron/Hermione will happen in DH but it won't last because Hermione will get frustrated with Ron. They're fooling themselves.
Moderator thinks "the trio needs to be a couple." They can't function without each other. Wow, that's really dysfunctional. None of them strike me as that weak. Yes, Harry will need his two best friends (and Ginny), in some capacity, to help him along the way to achieving his ultimate goal.
Was Hermione too harsh with Marietta Edgcombe and "Sneak?"No, I think the Sneak spell foreshadowed and parallels the Unbreakable Vow. And shows how talented and smart Hermione is. And loyal to Harry and the just cause.
Is Hermione more loyal or does she have a greater fear of failure? Almost all say her fear of failure supersedes her loyalty. Huh? I'm not sure how the one effects the other. And I don't she particularly fear failure anymore, no more than Harry or Ron, certainly. I think the fact that she took on that huge course load in GoF proves she doesn't fear failure. She obviously bit off more than she could chew. Her worst fear is academic failure, but that doesn't mean she's particularly fearful.
Is Hermione competing against others or against herself? Most say herself. Agreed.
What about Hermione and the sorting hat? She was on the border between Gryffindor and Ravenclaw, but the hat put her in Gryffindor. We don't know if she chose Gryffindor like Harry did (not slytherin), but we do know that Hermione thought Gryffindor was the best (she said so on the train). We think this was what pushed her into Gryffindor because she thought it was the best of all the houses. Harry didn't choose Gryffindor, did he? He simply begged the Hat not to put him Slytherin. The Hat chose Gryffindor for Harry.
There was also some discussion about Hermione/Snape (lots of the girls there loved this 'ship a lot) and Hermione/Draco. The question the moderator put forth was what makes these ships so attractive in fanfic?
Granger/Snape, the love that dares not speak its name. I used to be a rabid HG/SS shipper, but I had to really suspend reality and my sense of ickiness. There are lots of classic May/December stories out there (Eliza Doolittle and Professor Higgins) but really, this is more like March/August! Doesn't matter how old Hermione is when they force them together. And I really think JKRowling was probably horrified and disgusted by the whole phenomenon when she discovered it.
But I will say that I see some similarities between Severus Snape and Hermione Granger, and perhaps others do and take that next, fan girly, romantic step of putting them together. Draco, Snape, it's the whole bad boy thing. Draco might turn out not to be a 'bad' guy, but I suspect he will still think muggleborns are inferior.
Solitaire - May 26, 2007 2:44 pm (#2114 of 2486)
Draco might turn out not to be a 'bad' guy
As far as I am concerned, Draco has already turned out to be a bad guy, based on his past comments and behavior. It's possible that he might relent or reform, but I do not expect it unless he has a major falling-out with his family. His prejudices seem deeply ingrained, and I believe it would require something that shook his faith in his family to the core, before he would admit he was full of ... stinksap! But this is Hermione's thread.
I just can't even entertain a Snape/Hermione thing. Even setting aside the teacher-student ethic and accepting the "maybe Snape really is a good guy in disguise" argument, Snape is still not a pleasant human being. Do you think he will ever forgive Hermione for helping to zap him back in the Shrieking Shack? I don't. I think Snape holds big, nasty grudges.
Solitaire
Chemyst - May 26, 2007 4:37 pm (#2115 of 2486)
xray reporting on Phoenix Rising conference: Was Hermione too harsh with Marietta Edgcombe and "Sneak?" Everyone said no.
No kidding? A consensus? I'm thunderstruck!
Die Zimtzicke - May 26, 2007 7:58 pm (#2116 of 2486)
Yes, a consensus, but you have to remember...I wasn't there. LOL!
Do you identify more with Hermione or Luna?
Oh, Luna without a doubt. But I have to admit, the movie contamination is getting to me slightly. Emma is less and less like Hermione in every film, while Evanna seems to be a perfect Luna. But I would still like Luna better, even if I hadn't of seen the films.
Will Hermione die?
I would have voted 'no', but I wouldn't throw the book out the window because of it if it happened.
Regarding Films:
See above...
Did she snog Krum?
Yes, and probably a BIT more than that. He was older, and she was flattered.
Did she go further?
See above. But I don't mean anything that requires a trapeze or a bottle of chocolate syrup.
What advantages does she have to being Muggleborn?
It has advantages and disadvantages. I think she's trying so hard to fit into this new world she's found, that she is drawing away from her parents deliberately, and to me that's a mistake. But it's an advantage in that I think more contact with muggles, or at least the muggle relatives of muggleborns, is necessary.
How many witch inventors were muggleborn?
No idea. I don't think it matters.
About her parents... does she tell them everything or hide some things from them?
I would also agree she is hiding a lot of things. I hope it doesn't come back to bite her. I disagree that she has a hard enough time defying the teachers that she respects and that she wouldn't lie to her parents. She's getting MUCH better at lying.
Are her parents going to be targets in DH?
I think it's possible, but I would have voted no simply because they are practically non-existant in the books, and something happening to them wouldn't make too many people reading them all that fussed. It would be like killing Charlie Weasley to me. I'd feel a moment's pang, but I'm just not really that invested in his character.
What is the role of Ron and Hermione's relationship in book 7? What will it look like?
It will happen, and it won't bother me, but it won't be done well enough to suit me totally. I think Jo's main weakness is in her romance writing.
Do you hate Ron?
Oh, no. I like Ron. Ron's my favorite Weasley. But I do NOT think people who said they hated him were just disgruntled ex-shippers. That's a horrible generalization to my mind. He's just a much more simplistic character than some of the others, and some people just like complex characters. Not everything has to revolve around ships. I can tolerate almost ANY het ship myself.
Would Hermione love Ron and want to be with him if he got his act together?
One of the most irritating things Jo ever said as I see it was her comment about Ron becoming worthy of Hermione. That made me sick. They both have to mature a A LOT before they can make ago of it, not just him.
A couple people agreed that Ron/Hermione will happen in DH but it won't last because Hermione will get frustrated with Ron.
We won't see it that far into the future, I think. So that will be the realm of fan fic. I'm one of the few that disagrees an epliogue means we'll see them all talking to their grandchildren and find out everything that happened in the meantime. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, and I'll admit it, but I don't think it should or will go that far.
Moderator thinks "the trio needs to be a couple." They can't function without each other.
The trio supercedes everything else. Anyone else that can help Harry is useful and can be a good thing, but to me the trio will always be stronger than anything else. UNLESS we have a complete sextet, the trio will be the main focus for me and I hope it will end as it began.
Was Hermione too harsh with Marietta Edgcombe and "Sneak?"...
Heck, yes. No one should be able to be held to contract when they didn't know the details of what they were signing. It makes me very upset, too, that it seems to be permanent. I don't think anyone should have to pay forever for something they did when they were 16.
Is Hermione more loyal or does she have a greater fear of failure?
I agree that her fear of failure supersedes her loyalty. It does not make her disloyal, exactly, but it sometimes makes her careless, which can be dangerous.
Is Hermione competing against others or against herself?
She's competing against herself AND the entire world. Look at how she felt about Pansy making prefect, or Harry beating her in DADA and in potions. And she just hated being wrong about Ron's performance at Quidditch.
What about Hermione and the sorting hat?
She rightfully should have been in Ravenclaw, but then we'd have no story. It's just a plot point.
There was also some discussion about Hermione/Snape (lots of the girls there loved this 'ship a lot) and Hermione/Draco. The question the moderator put forth was what makes these ships so attractive in fanfic?
Different strokes for different folks? That's why they call if fan fic. I love a good Snape/Hermione, or Draco/Hermione, but I know darned well there's no actual chance of it happening in canon. It's just people having a good time playing "what if" and there's no harm in it. It's just hard to find a really GOOD one.
Lina - May 27, 2007 1:31 am (#2117 of 2486)
I find this thing with Hermione and house elves quite interesting. In fact, this is something that happens around us all the time, people who think that they they know what is better for someone else than that person could know for themselves, people who think they should change other people's customs, way of living and everything because they know better. I think it is something worth checking about ourselves indeed.
Pamzter - May 27, 2007 7:24 am (#2118 of 2486)
I'll have to disagree, Lina. Slavery is not a custom or way of living. It's black and white wrong. The problem is that Hermione takes it on completely by herself, thinking she can eradicate it quickly with an easy fix (ripple effect). She needs to step back, take a good long look, and figure out approaches to it from different angles, find some allies (elves and others) for all those different angles, then go after it with a plan, and anticipate it taking some time.
I find this to be very much like what Harry also needs (and continues to fail) to do.
wynnleaf - May 27, 2007 7:28 am (#2119 of 2486)
Edited May 27, 2007 7:58 am
I'd assume that the Hermione workshop at Phoenix Rising was full of very pro-Hermione supporters, because there didn't seem to be any objection to much at all other than the house elf thing and centaurs, yet I know people who were at Phoenix Rising who have some very strong opinions about other choices Hermione has made.
Anyway, here's some of my thoughts.
Do you identify more with Hermione or Luna? When I was a teen, I probably had more in common with Hermione, but I like Luna more.
Is Hermione the chosen one? Ha!
Will Hermione die? No.
Regarding Films: Almost all said they can't stand Emma Watson. She's okay - not my image of Hermione.
Did she snog Krum? Sure. Further? No.
What advantages does she have to being Muggleborn? I think the primary advantage is that she can look at Wizarding ideas and preconceptions more objectively. She's probably more likely to see the things wrong with the Wizarding World.
How many witch inventors were muggleborn? Is this due to ability to understand logic?
I don't get this question. What has Hermione invented? She doesn't strike me as truly creative -- she seems almost completely dependent on published or otherwise "teacher approved" information. She's more suspicious of creative thought if it doesn't conform to some pre-approved facts. She had no appreciation for Fred and George's inventiveness until she saw their store actually becoming successful, and she didn't even appear curious as to why the HBP potion improvements worked so much better than her textbook instructions.
About her parents... does she tell them everything or hide some things from them? Most agree she is hiding a lot of things.
Hermione has appeared to distance herself so much from her parents that it seems almost unbelievable for any normal kid, and has given rise to a lot of wild theories about Hermione, none of which I subscribe to, but I do think she is remarkably distanced from her parents even at the early age of 12.
Are her parents going to be targets in DH? No, they are nonentities.
Ron/Hermione What is the role of Ron and Hermione's relationship in book 7? Probably the ship will continue. JKR seems to like it. But I can't imagine these two personalities making it over the long term. Hermione is too condescending of Ron and, as far as I can tell, the only thing they really have in common is Harry.
Do you hate Ron? (About half the room didn't like Ron). I like Ron a lot. I can't tell that Hermione actually likes him. Yes, she wants him and gets pretty jealous, but she doesn't (in my opinion) seem to actually enjoy him.
Was Hermione too harsh with Marietta Edgcombe and "Sneak?" Everyone said no. This was what makes me think it was only very pro-Hermione people in that session. This is such a hotly debated subject and lots of strong HP fans have problems with Hermione's actions regarding Marietta. Personally, I strongly disapprove of Hermione's actions. I can't even give her the excuse of doing a spell that actually protected the DA, since she only used a hex that kicked in after the DA had been exposed.
Is Hermione more loyal or does she have a greater fear of failure? Almost all say her fear of failure supersedes her loyalty. That's fascinating. It seems like people think that it's more her loyalty to herself and her personal successes or being "right" that motivates her, rather than a commitment to a particular cause. Yes, I could believe that of her.
She thinks very quickly: Centaurs in OotP. She has a ruthless pragmatism. She's a good strategist but doesn't play her hand; she researches everything first.
Yes, she's ruthless. But her strategy is sometimes good, sometimes not. Her hex on the DA list didn't protect the DA, because it only started after the DA was betrayed, not before. Her actions with the centaurs almost got she and Harry in big trouble. Only Grawp's timely arrival saved them.
What were her biggest mistakes? Ron distracts her and fuzzes up her judgment. Hermione can't process her emotions--she can't study for them but it doesn't affect her ability to do magic. There are two big mistakes she made: one with the House Elves and one with the Centaurs (she said "I knew you would help us" and didn't think of the response). In both cases, her mistakes were made against non-humans.
I would include as "mistakes" Hermione's incredible hypocrisy in tampering with the Quidditch tryouts so that Ron would have an advantage and later berating Harry for (she assumed) giving Ron the luck potion to play well. Her idea to steal from Snape's potions stores, drug fellow students, and use polyjuice to steal other's identity in order to spy on other students was a huge mistake, especially since innocent students were injured and all was for naught since the Trio's assumption that Draco was guilty was completely erroneous. There's lots more mistakes, but that's a couple.
Hermione is the key to bringing in some outside creatures for the final war. This is a curious notion, especially since Hermione was so inept at dealing with house elves and centaurs.
There was also some discussion about Hermione/Snape (lots of the girls there loved this 'ship a lot) and Hermione/Draco. The question the moderator put forth was what makes these ships so attractive in fanfic?
Just looking at the personalities alone, I don't think Hermione would be interested in the Snape personality type. I think people assume that any two highly intelligent people would be drawn to each other and that's obviously not true. As regards the teacher/student thing -- well, Snape started teaching at about age 21, so the idea that he could have a relationship with a former student isn't far-fetched (aside from the personality problem ). And as wizards live far longer than muggles, 20 years wouldn't eventually seem like a big deal. I've seen speculation (which I don't buy) that there was a relationship between McGonagall and Dumbledore and they were 60-70 years apart. Even in real life, relationships between people 20 years apart are not unheard of and can be successful.
As regards Draco, I can see why people think that ship could be a possibility. Although Draco acts awfully to Hermione, it sometimes looks like "methinks the gentleman doth protest to much" (to mangle Shakespeare). It does sometimes seem like Draco pays far too much attention to Hermione if he really dislikes her so much. It would be easy to imagine that Draco is actually interested in her, but resists any attraction because his pureblood code is so deeply ingrained. If he got over the pureblood stuff and reformed? Yeah, I could see Hermione liking him. They're both sort of arrogant, they both are the types that always think they're "right" -- probably even after they change their mind. And Draco appears to be a pretty bright kid, even if he can get sort of whiny. If Draco grew up some and turned to the good side, I could see a Draco/Hermione ship -- which, I believe, is how the fan fics tend to write it.
Edited
Solitaire - May 27, 2007 10:21 am (#2120 of 2486)
Pamzter, I do not believe Lina was saying that slavery around us is a thing that must be accepted. I think she meant that Hermione's belief that she knows what is best for the House-Elves was a lot like people all around us who tend to think that they have all the answers to the problems of others. You must own that this is true.
When one goes about setting free any group of people who have been enslaved for as long as anyone can remember, it is wise to have a plan of action to help the freed people establish themselves as independent and assimilate into society. Simply setting people free without providing any assistance or coping tools to help them find a comfortable and safe place in society is not benevolent; it is cruel. Certainly there will be those who can instantly find a niche and thrive. Others may fall victim to further abuse from a society that didn't want them to be freed in the first place (think Malfoys).
In the case of the House-Elves, many Wizarding families may choose not to have an Elf if they have to pay him and treat him decently and with respect. Dobby could probably be a tremendous help to Hermione in her efforts, if she chooses to consult him. He would know the points where the House-Elves need persuading, education, training, employment help, etc. He probably also knows where she is going to find active and extreme resistance among the Wizards and might be able to help her anticipate and deflect it.
If Hermione's bottom line with SPEW is true House-Elf emancipation, she needs to approach it with logic, common sense, and a great deal of compassion for and understanding of those she is trying to set free. JM2K, of course ...
Solitaire
Lina - May 27, 2007 12:22 pm (#2121 of 2486)
Thank you, Solitaire, indeed, for the help because I didn't know where to start with the answer.
The point is that I question the slavery of house elves. Although it is true that some wizard families treat them badly, not all of them do. It is in their nature to serve people. Think of Dobby. He was happy to be free because he suffered (more emotionally than physically) at the Malfoy house, but at the same time he followed Harry everywhere and wanted to work for him. Think of Winky. What was the worst punishment for her? To set her free. Dumbledore had house elves at Hogwarts. He didn't give them money for their work (mostly), he only treated them with respect much before Hermione was aware of their existence. Any of the house elves could have taken the clothes that Hermione was leaving for them around. But instead, they chose not to go to the Griffindor tower and Dobby had to do all that work. What is unimaginable for one person might be totally acceptable for another. And who gives the right to one person to say to the other how to live? By pushing house elves to rebellion, Hermione denied them the freedom to choose what they want in their life.
It might be just the extreme example, I can agree with that, but the fairy tales are about showing extreme examples.
Chemyst - May 27, 2007 12:41 pm (#2122 of 2486)
Slavery is not a custom or way of living. It's black and white wrong. – Pamzter
If slavery is black-and-white wrong, and house elves choose enslavement, then shouldn't we throw them all in Azkaban?
I don't think the term "slave" fully applies to the lot of the house elf. I see several distinctions between their work and true slavery that Hermione either refused to acknowledge or purposely overlooked.
(1) Slaves are property. House elves are not owned, but bound (attached) to a house. We have no canon to indicate they can be sold or traded for profit. They seem to have a hereditary indenture; a contract would have to be broken to end it.
(2) Several other characters have told her that the house elves like to work; it is their preference. Slavery is work forced against one's preference.
(3) The house elves were actually fearful of getting one of Hermione's knitted creations to the extent that only Dobby would clean the Gryffindor common room; (and we see that no one forced them to clean it anyway). In a very bizarre twist, these elves sacrificed their preferred work in protest against manumission.
Unarguably there are aspects of a house elf's life that have the appearance of slavery. But when they were offered a chance at self-determination, they chose the status quo.
I agree with Lina that this is a fairytale allegory that is making a statement on the importance of self-determination.
Choices - May 27, 2007 1:43 pm (#2123 of 2486)
Edited May 27, 2007 3:07 pm
Going back several posts to the comments about the fanfics pairing Snape and Hermione. I have often wondered what would have happened or how we would have perceived Snape if he had been portrayed by....say the guy who plays Filch, instead of Alan Rickman. Rickman has changed the whole way we look at Snape. Book Snape was never supposed to have the appeal or charisma that Rickman brings to the screen Snape. Under different circumstances, I could possibly imagine our Hermione having a school-girl crush on Snape - being drawn to his power as a wizard, his mystery and intelligence, but I would never pair them in a serious way.
Mrs Brisbee - May 27, 2007 2:11 pm (#2124 of 2486)
My seven-year-old was watching the movie this morning after listening to the book the day before. One of the first things she said was, "I didn't picture Snape looking like that! He's too good looking." Ah, the mysteries of movie casting. Anyway, my opinion of Hermione/Snape also falls firmly in the "Ick" category. For Draco, I just don't see him having anything that would ever attract Hermione.
Back to the slavery of the House Elves-- yes, it is slavery, I would say, because the wizards who employ the House Elves are allowed to treat it like slavery. The House Elves are bound to serve, and masters don't have to release them unless the masters want to. Beating House Elves seems to be legal.
But I agree with Solitaire's assessment of where Hermione went wrong. She didn't try to understand the creatures involved, or respect them. Maybe in the future she will pursue SPEW in a more mature way. Maybe she'll re-organize the Society under a different, better name, with an updated and more practical mission.
Jenniffler - May 27, 2007 2:56 pm (#2125 of 2486)
Hermione is right about house elf enslavement. She just has not found the right tactic to convince the house elves. An underground freedom plan is not the best way to lure out those oppressed by injustice.
I think those who see a need for change before all the pieces are in place should not be mocked for taking the wrong approach.
Another point might be that House-elves made a deal with wizards early on that allowed them to join a wizarding household, making most believe they are choosing to stay out of tradition or out of enjoying the benefits of magic in close quarters.
In a perfect world, house-elves would be like actors with the ability to option out of a magical tale. Hermione the uber agent.
wynnleaf - May 27, 2007 2:57 pm (#2126 of 2486)
Do the HP books actually call it slavery? Well, that is, I know Hermione may, but is it truly slavery in the Wizarding World? I guess what I mean is that if the house elves more-or-less bind themselves to the family, then aren't they more like life-time bond servants? As was said earlier, their families to whom their bound may have authority to tell them what to do, but they can't sell them off, only free them.
Overall, I agree with Solitaire's comments about this one. It's not that Hermione is wrong about freedom for house elves, but she goes about it completely wrong. It's a very parental attitude. I used to live in an area of a country where people were only a generation or two from stone age (literally). Westerners were often apt to think that they should be able to just come in and change people's lives "for the better" even if those people had no desire for it, or it would completely up-end their culture. Hermione reminds me of that attitude.
Solitaire - May 27, 2007 4:44 pm (#2127 of 2486)
Jenniffler, I do not think anyone was mocking (ridiculing or deriding) Hermione. We were criticizing--constructively, I think--a very real failure on her part to take into consideration some serious issues. I don't think this necessarily shows insensitivity. I do think it is just a reflection of her youth and idealism. Hermione sees what she perceives as an injustice and attempts to set about righting it, without having given the problem enough research.
Before I am attacked on the issue of her lack of research, I do admit Hermione did research in the Hogwarts library for a few days. But when she is attempting to set the the magical world on its ear, I think more than a few days of research is going to be required. She is going to have to do some serious interviewing with House-Elves from different backgrounds. She is also going to have to find out how House-Elves came to be in their current social status before she attempts to change it. Finally, she is going to have to come up with a plan to provide jobs and housing for all House-Elves who choose to become free.
Such changes are probably not something a young girl in school is going to be able to effect by herself. She is going to need the cooperation of the Ministry of Magic officials in various capacities. Somehow, I do not envision Crouch or Fudge showing much interest in her proposals at this time.
Solitaire
Jenniffler - May 27, 2007 5:04 pm (#2128 of 2486)
I do not think anyone was mocking (ridiculing or deriding) Hermione. --Solitaire
No,no! Not my fellow posters. People in the book. I meant in the book Ron teased her a lot about her approach. Sirius didn't care. I think she was less approachable beacause of her stance, like a suffragette in the mid 1800's.
Solitaire - May 27, 2007 11:52 pm (#2129 of 2486)
Somehow, I do not envision Crouch or Fudge showing much interest in her proposals at this time.
BTW, I was talking about the time frame when she started S.P.E.W. I realize Crouch is now dead and Fudge is no longer Minister.
Solitaire
Pamzter - May 28, 2007 2:59 am (#2130 of 2486)
Of the thoughts I was sure I was going to get slammed on (that Hermione went about it the wrong way or it mirroring Harry's situation), the last one I imagined was about my statement that slavery is morally wrong.
Slavery is one person being the property of (owned and controlled by) another person. It does not matter if it is by choice (bond servant/contract), or whether or not they “like” the work, or how well they are treated, or whether or not they fear freedom, or what is determined to be status quo.
Perhaps some will consider this all far too serious for these boards and the purpose of this particular thread, but with over 20 million people currently in bondage TODAY, I feel that I cannot be serious enough in making this point.
And now I will hold back on anything further and step down off my pulpit, take a deep breath, and go back to enjoying JK’s imaginary world and think about something light and frothy – maybe revisit the threads on pygmy puffs and Dumbledore as the Giant Squid.
Well, this is fiction. Everything, absolutely every act, is there to advance the plot. Perhaps the problem you have is that some of JKR's points are worked into the plot with more finesse, more realistically, than other plot points. Specifically, Hermione's sorting seems unrealistic or awkward, to you. If so, your problem is with the author, not the Hat. (journeymom)
Excellent comments that could apply to any number of things we feel are inconsistent, unrealistic, or awkward in HP.
But it does seem as though JKR has a overriding goal she's working her way toward, and she's got her characters on a strict path, and therefore they go where she wants them to go, do what she wants them to do. (journeymom)
Another great observation. I get the feeling that, whether Hermione or any other characters, JKR doesn't often have the experience many writers describe of the characters going off in their own directions, or doing things the author never expected.
Die Zimtzicke - May 9, 2007 4:04 pm (#2102 of 2486)
Jo is different from some writers who do create great characters and let the plot derive somwhat from who the characters become. Jo seems to be more the type who has a plot and the characters are only there to fit in it. She HAS occasionally made changes to her original plot; I know that, so don't get me wrong, but I think a lot of the complaints people have with her characters seeming out of character is that they do whatever is necessary to move the plot, in spite of how they have behaved previously in different situations.
Gatorgrad1991 - May 22, 2007 6:58 am (#2103 of 2486)
Hermione has always seemed to me to be a perfect fit for Gryffindor, mainly because she has tremendous moral and emotional courage. She is far from being a physical coward, but that is not where her real strength lies. I think the Sorting Hat chose extremely well in Hermione's case; although she may be suited to Ravenclaw she has shown herself to be a true Gryffindor.
Solitaire - May 23, 2007 2:19 am (#2104 of 2486)
I do think Hermione has developed courage, but in the very beginning, she was just a bossy, know-it-all buttinski. She tagged along on the midnight duel not because she was interested but because she was ragging on Harry and Ron for going in the first place. I don't think she really got into the game until the Troll business. After that, well ...From that moment on, Hermione Granger became their friend. There are some things you can't share without ending up liking each other, and kknocking out a twelve-foot troll is one of them. JM2K, of course ...
Solitaire
journeymom - May 23, 2007 2:09 pm (#2105 of 2486)
Eww, troll bogeys!
frogface - May 24, 2007 11:53 am (#2106 of 2486)
I do think Hermione has developed courage, but in the very beginning, she was just a bossy, know-it-all buttinski. I disagree with this. I don't think she was just a bossy-know-it-all when she first joined Hogwarts. I think she was just a lonely girl who'd never had many friends, and didn't really know how to interact with other children. She is an only child after all. I think Hermione always had tremendous bravery in her though, after all the Sorting Hat spotting this in her long before the Troll incident, didn't it? Its just that it took Harry and Ron, who are more laid back, to bring that daring and courage out of her. I think Hermione must be tremondously brave, because even though she's very clever and very hard working, her bravery was what the Hat seemed to take note of.
Chemyst - May 24, 2007 12:35 pm (#2107 of 2486)
… and didn't really know how to interact with other children. She is an only child after all.
Yes, she is an only child now. We know JKR said she originally was going to give Hermione a younger sister but did not have room to fit it in. So I am going to make a leap and say that with or without a younger sister, Hermione's personality would still been written to make her socially inept upon her arrival at Hogwarts.
Even though she did not know she was a witch and certainly had not been trained, I'd imagine some of her latent powers would have affected her social life. She probably attended a muggle school for several years before coming to Hogwarts. Being an undiagnosed witch is probably more likely to cause social problems than being an only child would.
journeymom - May 24, 2007 12:37 pm (#2108 of 2486)
James, Sirius and Draco are all onlies, and non of them had/have problems fitting in. You might not like Draco, or the other two for that matter, but none of them were social outcasts.
Solitaire - May 25, 2007 7:12 am (#2109 of 2486)
You are correct, Frogface. She is and was all the things you say. Alas, she was still a bossy, know-it-all buttinski. I think her behavior in PS/SS--in the chapter entitled The Midnight Duel-- is a perfect example of this. I'm not saying her presence wasn't needed (It was!) and I'm not saying she wasn't right (She was).
I think Hermione felt rather insecure when she first entered Hogwarts. Her behavior seemed rather typical of a lot of the bright, insecure children I teach at school. Some just pull into themselves and are afraid to exhibit any of their knowledge for fear of teasing by their less gifted but perhaps more socially adept peers. Others appear to try and compensate for what they may feel--and this is based only on information from some of my kids and their parents--are inadequacies by freely exhibiting the things they DO know. Unfortunately, this often has the opposite effect and the kids are perceived by peers as know-it-alls. This is how I see what happened with Hermione up to the Troll incident. JM2K, but I think it is right, based on similar experiences with my own students of this age. Actually, when Hermione steps up and takes the blame in the Troll incident, something important happens: She makes others (Ron and Harry) come off looking good at her own expense, showing herself capable of making a sacrifice for others. She also shows herself worthy of their friendship ... and they respond by giving it.
I could say more, but if I did, I'd be late for school!
Solitaire
Lina - May 26, 2007 2:26 am (#2110 of 2486)
Journeymom, Sirius wasn't an only child.
I agree, Soli, that Hermione was know-it-all mostly because she felt insecure. I also agree with Chemyst that she must have been compensating her differences from other children by knowledge. I just find it interesting. Both, Harry and Hermione, were afraid of how will they fit among witches and wizards that they knew nothing about their way of life. Yet, they didn't react in the same way to that fear. I guess Hermione just needs a lot of knowledge to feel confident.
xray - May 26, 2007 8:46 am (#2111 of 2486)
Hi Everyone!
I went to Phoenix Rising conference in New Orleans this past week and one of the sessions I attended was a roundtable discussion on Hermione. It was titled Hermione's Helping Hand: How the "Brains" of the Trio has Aided in Harry's Heroic Journey.
Here are some of the things that were discussed:
Do you identify more with Hermione or Luna?
Is Hermione the chosen one? (everyone said no).
Will Hermione die? (Most said no, some said possibly).
Regarding Films: Almost all said they can't stand Emma Watson. Magical Pink, non bushy hair, more and more blonde every movie, low rider jeans, etc, is not Hermione. Most are angry she got all Ron's great lines.
Did she snog Krum? Most said yes.
Did she go further? 2 or 3 said yes, everyone else said no.
What advantages does she have to being Muggleborn?
She has an outsider perspective of the wizarding world. If she was born in a wizarding family she might not be as good a student because she may not try as hard as she does.
How many witch inventors were muggleborn? Is this due to ability to understand logic?
Hermione doesn't take things for granted either. She's very bright.
About her parents... does she tell them everything or hide some things from them? Most agree she is hiding a lot of things.
Are her parents going to be targets in DH?
Ron/Hermione
What is the role of Ron and Hermione's relationship in book 7?
Do you hate Ron? (About half the room didn't like Ron).
Would Hermione love Ron and want to be with him if he got his act together? What about if Ron didn't need her as much as he does. Is Hermione needy of this? i.e. does she need someone else to need her the way Ron does? She needs to be needed.
A couple people agreed that Ron/Hermione will happen in DH but it won't last because Hermione will get frustrated with Ron.
A rebuttal was that Ron will mature and rise to the occasion in book 7.
Moderator thinks "the trio needs to be a couple." They can't function without each other.
Was Hermione too harsh with Marietta Edgcombe and "Sneak?" Everyone said no.
Is Hermione more loyal or does she have a greater fear of failure? Almost all say her fear of failure supersedes her loyalty.
Is Hermione competing against others or against herself? Most say herself.
What about Hermione and the sorting hat? She was on the border between Gryffindor and Ravenclaw, but the hat put her in Gryffindor. We don't know if she chose Gryffindor like Harry did (not slytherin), but we do know that Hermione thought Gryffindor was the best (she said so on the train). We think this was what pushed her into Gryffindor because she thought it was the best of all the houses.
Hermione sees potential problems. She made a huge leap about the basilisk in the pipes.
She thinks very quickly: Centaurs in OotP. She has a ruthless pragmatism. She's a good strategist but doesn't play her hand; she researches everything first.
What were her biggest mistakes? Ron distracts her and fuzzes up her judgment. Hermione can't process her emotions--she can't study for them but it doesn't affect her ability to do magic.
There are two big mistakes she made: one with the House Elves and one with the Centaurs (she said "I knew you would help us" and didn't think of the response). In both cases, her mistakes were made against non-humans.
She has strengths and weaknesses because she's an outsider.
Hermione is the key to bringing in some outside creatures for the final war.
There was also some discussion about Hermione/Snape (lots of the girls there loved this 'ship a lot) and Hermione/Draco. The question the moderator put forth was what makes these ships so attractive in fanfic?
Solitaire - May 26, 2007 9:31 am (#2112 of 2486)
Hermione/Snape and Hermione/Draco? ROTFLOL Since this is not a 'ship thread, I'll leave it at that. I certainly agree that Hermione has gotten Harry off the dime more than once when he has been stalled.
About her relationship with Ron ... I wonder sometimes if she is not as much in love with his family as she is with him. To be sure, she has parents who are alive and love her. Their presence in Diagon Alley also suggests to me that they are accepting of her magical abilities--even if they do not understand them--and that they are also not averse to meeting the people who have become important in her life. However, they do seem unusually willing to allow her to spend nearly all of her free time with the Weasleys from a very early age. Then again, we do not know what has happened with them "off camera." Perhaps they have talked to Dumbledore or McGonagall about Hermione's "cross-over" between the Muggle and magical worlds and have come to understand that the magical world will naturally pull her away at an earlier than usual age. They may feel that she is better off spending her vacation time with the Weasleys in a family atmosphere-where she will receive more supervision and certainly more caring and warmth--than she would be with a girlfriend (if she has one) whose parents might give them too much freedom. Just my thoughts ...
It's interesting to consider her actions with regard to the House-elves and Centaurs. She is so outspoken about how they have been badly treated and rejected by many in the magical world ... yet she attempts to use the Centaurs and she continually offends the House-Elves. I wonder if she has ever stopped to examine her own behavior and attitudes there. She has taken up the "cause" of the House-Elves, even though there does not seem to be a cause just yet. Hermione is still young, however, and she must learn to think farther than her immediate actions to what their effects on her and others might be. I think this is coming, and when she combines her intellect, her magical abilities, and a more mature knowledge of human nature, I believe she will prove to be a very powerful witch.
Solitaire
journeymom - May 26, 2007 10:47 am (#2113 of 2486)
Edited May 26, 2007 11:48 am
Journeymom, Sirius wasn't an only child. D'oh! [Slaps forehead] I do know that.
Do you identify more with Hermione or Luna? A combination of both.
Will Hermione die? (Most said no, some said possibly). I certainly hope not. I vote 'no'.
Regarding Films: Almost all said they can't stand Emma Watson. Magical Pink, non bushy hair, more and more blonde every movie, low rider jeans, etc, is not Hermione. Most are angry she got all Ron's great lines. I love Emma Watson, though I got tired of the eyebrow waving in GoF. I can only hope that was the fault of the director. I don't have a problem with her dressing like a modern day kid when she's not in her school robes. And yes, it's a real shame that she got so many of Ron's great lines.
Did she snog Krum? Isn't this canon? She told Ron she did, didn't she? If so, I think it's hysterical that she got her first kiss before Ron or Harry or Ron did.
Did she go further? Oh, for pity's sake. Of course she didn't. Unless we're counting groping. That's realistic. Kind of fits in the category of 'snogging'. I love that word. Much better than 'making out'.
What advantages does she have to being Muggleborn? Logic. She was the one who solved Snape's (the half-blood) potions riddle. Not that Harry's not logical, but her mind is more disciplined than his is. Somewhere, probably in PS/SS JKR says muggles are more logical than wizards and witches, I believe.
How many witch inventors were muggleborn? Is this due to ability to understand logic? Good question. See answer to above. There's no way to know how many inventors are muggleborn, but that's an interesting thought.
About her parents... does she tell them everything or hide some things from them? Most agree she is hiding a lot of things. Hermione hiding the fact that there is a war going on in the wizarding world is a common point in the fan fic world. It has the ring of truth but I don't think she's hiding anything. She has a hard enough time defying the teachers that she respects. She wouldn't lie to her parents.
Are her parents going to be targets in DH? It's reasonable to think so, but I vote no.
What is the role of Ron and Hermione's relationship in book 7? What will it look like? It will strengthen. What roll? I dunno, serve as a reminder that love and affection is a wonderful thing?
Do you hate Ron? (About half the room didn't like Ron). Heavens, no. I love Ron. Ron's the bomb. I suspect the people who actually hate him (hate is such a strong word), are trying to set Hermione up with somebody else. They conveniently kill Ron off in the final battle so somebody else can swoop in and comfort her. :eyesroll:
Would Hermione love Ron and want to be with him if he got his act together? What about if Ron didn't need her as much as he does. Is Hermione needy of this? i.e. does she need someone else to need her the way Ron does? She needs to be needed. 'Would' she? She already does love Ron and wants to be with him. His act is together, as much as any other teen boy or girl his age. Hermione 'needs' Ron as much as he needs her. And everybody likes to be needed. Ron isn't an incompetent, Hermione is not this super hero.
A couple people agreed that Ron/Hermione will happen in DH but it won't last because Hermione will get frustrated with Ron. They're fooling themselves.
Moderator thinks "the trio needs to be a couple." They can't function without each other. Wow, that's really dysfunctional. None of them strike me as that weak. Yes, Harry will need his two best friends (and Ginny), in some capacity, to help him along the way to achieving his ultimate goal.
Was Hermione too harsh with Marietta Edgcombe and "Sneak?"No, I think the Sneak spell foreshadowed and parallels the Unbreakable Vow. And shows how talented and smart Hermione is. And loyal to Harry and the just cause.
Is Hermione more loyal or does she have a greater fear of failure? Almost all say her fear of failure supersedes her loyalty. Huh? I'm not sure how the one effects the other. And I don't she particularly fear failure anymore, no more than Harry or Ron, certainly. I think the fact that she took on that huge course load in GoF proves she doesn't fear failure. She obviously bit off more than she could chew. Her worst fear is academic failure, but that doesn't mean she's particularly fearful.
Is Hermione competing against others or against herself? Most say herself. Agreed.
What about Hermione and the sorting hat? She was on the border between Gryffindor and Ravenclaw, but the hat put her in Gryffindor. We don't know if she chose Gryffindor like Harry did (not slytherin), but we do know that Hermione thought Gryffindor was the best (she said so on the train). We think this was what pushed her into Gryffindor because she thought it was the best of all the houses. Harry didn't choose Gryffindor, did he? He simply begged the Hat not to put him Slytherin. The Hat chose Gryffindor for Harry.
There was also some discussion about Hermione/Snape (lots of the girls there loved this 'ship a lot) and Hermione/Draco. The question the moderator put forth was what makes these ships so attractive in fanfic?
Granger/Snape, the love that dares not speak its name. I used to be a rabid HG/SS shipper, but I had to really suspend reality and my sense of ickiness. There are lots of classic May/December stories out there (Eliza Doolittle and Professor Higgins) but really, this is more like March/August! Doesn't matter how old Hermione is when they force them together. And I really think JKRowling was probably horrified and disgusted by the whole phenomenon when she discovered it.
But I will say that I see some similarities between Severus Snape and Hermione Granger, and perhaps others do and take that next, fan girly, romantic step of putting them together. Draco, Snape, it's the whole bad boy thing. Draco might turn out not to be a 'bad' guy, but I suspect he will still think muggleborns are inferior.
Solitaire - May 26, 2007 2:44 pm (#2114 of 2486)
Draco might turn out not to be a 'bad' guy
As far as I am concerned, Draco has already turned out to be a bad guy, based on his past comments and behavior. It's possible that he might relent or reform, but I do not expect it unless he has a major falling-out with his family. His prejudices seem deeply ingrained, and I believe it would require something that shook his faith in his family to the core, before he would admit he was full of ... stinksap! But this is Hermione's thread.
I just can't even entertain a Snape/Hermione thing. Even setting aside the teacher-student ethic and accepting the "maybe Snape really is a good guy in disguise" argument, Snape is still not a pleasant human being. Do you think he will ever forgive Hermione for helping to zap him back in the Shrieking Shack? I don't. I think Snape holds big, nasty grudges.
Solitaire
Chemyst - May 26, 2007 4:37 pm (#2115 of 2486)
xray reporting on Phoenix Rising conference: Was Hermione too harsh with Marietta Edgcombe and "Sneak?" Everyone said no.
No kidding? A consensus? I'm thunderstruck!
Die Zimtzicke - May 26, 2007 7:58 pm (#2116 of 2486)
Yes, a consensus, but you have to remember...I wasn't there. LOL!
Do you identify more with Hermione or Luna?
Oh, Luna without a doubt. But I have to admit, the movie contamination is getting to me slightly. Emma is less and less like Hermione in every film, while Evanna seems to be a perfect Luna. But I would still like Luna better, even if I hadn't of seen the films.
Will Hermione die?
I would have voted 'no', but I wouldn't throw the book out the window because of it if it happened.
Regarding Films:
See above...
Did she snog Krum?
Yes, and probably a BIT more than that. He was older, and she was flattered.
Did she go further?
See above. But I don't mean anything that requires a trapeze or a bottle of chocolate syrup.
What advantages does she have to being Muggleborn?
It has advantages and disadvantages. I think she's trying so hard to fit into this new world she's found, that she is drawing away from her parents deliberately, and to me that's a mistake. But it's an advantage in that I think more contact with muggles, or at least the muggle relatives of muggleborns, is necessary.
How many witch inventors were muggleborn?
No idea. I don't think it matters.
About her parents... does she tell them everything or hide some things from them?
I would also agree she is hiding a lot of things. I hope it doesn't come back to bite her. I disagree that she has a hard enough time defying the teachers that she respects and that she wouldn't lie to her parents. She's getting MUCH better at lying.
Are her parents going to be targets in DH?
I think it's possible, but I would have voted no simply because they are practically non-existant in the books, and something happening to them wouldn't make too many people reading them all that fussed. It would be like killing Charlie Weasley to me. I'd feel a moment's pang, but I'm just not really that invested in his character.
What is the role of Ron and Hermione's relationship in book 7? What will it look like?
It will happen, and it won't bother me, but it won't be done well enough to suit me totally. I think Jo's main weakness is in her romance writing.
Do you hate Ron?
Oh, no. I like Ron. Ron's my favorite Weasley. But I do NOT think people who said they hated him were just disgruntled ex-shippers. That's a horrible generalization to my mind. He's just a much more simplistic character than some of the others, and some people just like complex characters. Not everything has to revolve around ships. I can tolerate almost ANY het ship myself.
Would Hermione love Ron and want to be with him if he got his act together?
One of the most irritating things Jo ever said as I see it was her comment about Ron becoming worthy of Hermione. That made me sick. They both have to mature a A LOT before they can make ago of it, not just him.
A couple people agreed that Ron/Hermione will happen in DH but it won't last because Hermione will get frustrated with Ron.
We won't see it that far into the future, I think. So that will be the realm of fan fic. I'm one of the few that disagrees an epliogue means we'll see them all talking to their grandchildren and find out everything that happened in the meantime. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, and I'll admit it, but I don't think it should or will go that far.
Moderator thinks "the trio needs to be a couple." They can't function without each other.
The trio supercedes everything else. Anyone else that can help Harry is useful and can be a good thing, but to me the trio will always be stronger than anything else. UNLESS we have a complete sextet, the trio will be the main focus for me and I hope it will end as it began.
Was Hermione too harsh with Marietta Edgcombe and "Sneak?"...
Heck, yes. No one should be able to be held to contract when they didn't know the details of what they were signing. It makes me very upset, too, that it seems to be permanent. I don't think anyone should have to pay forever for something they did when they were 16.
Is Hermione more loyal or does she have a greater fear of failure?
I agree that her fear of failure supersedes her loyalty. It does not make her disloyal, exactly, but it sometimes makes her careless, which can be dangerous.
Is Hermione competing against others or against herself?
She's competing against herself AND the entire world. Look at how she felt about Pansy making prefect, or Harry beating her in DADA and in potions. And she just hated being wrong about Ron's performance at Quidditch.
What about Hermione and the sorting hat?
She rightfully should have been in Ravenclaw, but then we'd have no story. It's just a plot point.
There was also some discussion about Hermione/Snape (lots of the girls there loved this 'ship a lot) and Hermione/Draco. The question the moderator put forth was what makes these ships so attractive in fanfic?
Different strokes for different folks? That's why they call if fan fic. I love a good Snape/Hermione, or Draco/Hermione, but I know darned well there's no actual chance of it happening in canon. It's just people having a good time playing "what if" and there's no harm in it. It's just hard to find a really GOOD one.
Lina - May 27, 2007 1:31 am (#2117 of 2486)
I find this thing with Hermione and house elves quite interesting. In fact, this is something that happens around us all the time, people who think that they they know what is better for someone else than that person could know for themselves, people who think they should change other people's customs, way of living and everything because they know better. I think it is something worth checking about ourselves indeed.
Pamzter - May 27, 2007 7:24 am (#2118 of 2486)
I'll have to disagree, Lina. Slavery is not a custom or way of living. It's black and white wrong. The problem is that Hermione takes it on completely by herself, thinking she can eradicate it quickly with an easy fix (ripple effect). She needs to step back, take a good long look, and figure out approaches to it from different angles, find some allies (elves and others) for all those different angles, then go after it with a plan, and anticipate it taking some time.
I find this to be very much like what Harry also needs (and continues to fail) to do.
wynnleaf - May 27, 2007 7:28 am (#2119 of 2486)
Edited May 27, 2007 7:58 am
I'd assume that the Hermione workshop at Phoenix Rising was full of very pro-Hermione supporters, because there didn't seem to be any objection to much at all other than the house elf thing and centaurs, yet I know people who were at Phoenix Rising who have some very strong opinions about other choices Hermione has made.
Anyway, here's some of my thoughts.
Do you identify more with Hermione or Luna? When I was a teen, I probably had more in common with Hermione, but I like Luna more.
Is Hermione the chosen one? Ha!
Will Hermione die? No.
Regarding Films: Almost all said they can't stand Emma Watson. She's okay - not my image of Hermione.
Did she snog Krum? Sure. Further? No.
What advantages does she have to being Muggleborn? I think the primary advantage is that she can look at Wizarding ideas and preconceptions more objectively. She's probably more likely to see the things wrong with the Wizarding World.
How many witch inventors were muggleborn? Is this due to ability to understand logic?
I don't get this question. What has Hermione invented? She doesn't strike me as truly creative -- she seems almost completely dependent on published or otherwise "teacher approved" information. She's more suspicious of creative thought if it doesn't conform to some pre-approved facts. She had no appreciation for Fred and George's inventiveness until she saw their store actually becoming successful, and she didn't even appear curious as to why the HBP potion improvements worked so much better than her textbook instructions.
About her parents... does she tell them everything or hide some things from them? Most agree she is hiding a lot of things.
Hermione has appeared to distance herself so much from her parents that it seems almost unbelievable for any normal kid, and has given rise to a lot of wild theories about Hermione, none of which I subscribe to, but I do think she is remarkably distanced from her parents even at the early age of 12.
Are her parents going to be targets in DH? No, they are nonentities.
Ron/Hermione What is the role of Ron and Hermione's relationship in book 7? Probably the ship will continue. JKR seems to like it. But I can't imagine these two personalities making it over the long term. Hermione is too condescending of Ron and, as far as I can tell, the only thing they really have in common is Harry.
Do you hate Ron? (About half the room didn't like Ron). I like Ron a lot. I can't tell that Hermione actually likes him. Yes, she wants him and gets pretty jealous, but she doesn't (in my opinion) seem to actually enjoy him.
Was Hermione too harsh with Marietta Edgcombe and "Sneak?" Everyone said no. This was what makes me think it was only very pro-Hermione people in that session. This is such a hotly debated subject and lots of strong HP fans have problems with Hermione's actions regarding Marietta. Personally, I strongly disapprove of Hermione's actions. I can't even give her the excuse of doing a spell that actually protected the DA, since she only used a hex that kicked in after the DA had been exposed.
Is Hermione more loyal or does she have a greater fear of failure? Almost all say her fear of failure supersedes her loyalty. That's fascinating. It seems like people think that it's more her loyalty to herself and her personal successes or being "right" that motivates her, rather than a commitment to a particular cause. Yes, I could believe that of her.
She thinks very quickly: Centaurs in OotP. She has a ruthless pragmatism. She's a good strategist but doesn't play her hand; she researches everything first.
Yes, she's ruthless. But her strategy is sometimes good, sometimes not. Her hex on the DA list didn't protect the DA, because it only started after the DA was betrayed, not before. Her actions with the centaurs almost got she and Harry in big trouble. Only Grawp's timely arrival saved them.
What were her biggest mistakes? Ron distracts her and fuzzes up her judgment. Hermione can't process her emotions--she can't study for them but it doesn't affect her ability to do magic. There are two big mistakes she made: one with the House Elves and one with the Centaurs (she said "I knew you would help us" and didn't think of the response). In both cases, her mistakes were made against non-humans.
I would include as "mistakes" Hermione's incredible hypocrisy in tampering with the Quidditch tryouts so that Ron would have an advantage and later berating Harry for (she assumed) giving Ron the luck potion to play well. Her idea to steal from Snape's potions stores, drug fellow students, and use polyjuice to steal other's identity in order to spy on other students was a huge mistake, especially since innocent students were injured and all was for naught since the Trio's assumption that Draco was guilty was completely erroneous. There's lots more mistakes, but that's a couple.
Hermione is the key to bringing in some outside creatures for the final war. This is a curious notion, especially since Hermione was so inept at dealing with house elves and centaurs.
There was also some discussion about Hermione/Snape (lots of the girls there loved this 'ship a lot) and Hermione/Draco. The question the moderator put forth was what makes these ships so attractive in fanfic?
Just looking at the personalities alone, I don't think Hermione would be interested in the Snape personality type. I think people assume that any two highly intelligent people would be drawn to each other and that's obviously not true. As regards the teacher/student thing -- well, Snape started teaching at about age 21, so the idea that he could have a relationship with a former student isn't far-fetched (aside from the personality problem ). And as wizards live far longer than muggles, 20 years wouldn't eventually seem like a big deal. I've seen speculation (which I don't buy) that there was a relationship between McGonagall and Dumbledore and they were 60-70 years apart. Even in real life, relationships between people 20 years apart are not unheard of and can be successful.
As regards Draco, I can see why people think that ship could be a possibility. Although Draco acts awfully to Hermione, it sometimes looks like "methinks the gentleman doth protest to much" (to mangle Shakespeare). It does sometimes seem like Draco pays far too much attention to Hermione if he really dislikes her so much. It would be easy to imagine that Draco is actually interested in her, but resists any attraction because his pureblood code is so deeply ingrained. If he got over the pureblood stuff and reformed? Yeah, I could see Hermione liking him. They're both sort of arrogant, they both are the types that always think they're "right" -- probably even after they change their mind. And Draco appears to be a pretty bright kid, even if he can get sort of whiny. If Draco grew up some and turned to the good side, I could see a Draco/Hermione ship -- which, I believe, is how the fan fics tend to write it.
Edited
Solitaire - May 27, 2007 10:21 am (#2120 of 2486)
Pamzter, I do not believe Lina was saying that slavery around us is a thing that must be accepted. I think she meant that Hermione's belief that she knows what is best for the House-Elves was a lot like people all around us who tend to think that they have all the answers to the problems of others. You must own that this is true.
When one goes about setting free any group of people who have been enslaved for as long as anyone can remember, it is wise to have a plan of action to help the freed people establish themselves as independent and assimilate into society. Simply setting people free without providing any assistance or coping tools to help them find a comfortable and safe place in society is not benevolent; it is cruel. Certainly there will be those who can instantly find a niche and thrive. Others may fall victim to further abuse from a society that didn't want them to be freed in the first place (think Malfoys).
In the case of the House-Elves, many Wizarding families may choose not to have an Elf if they have to pay him and treat him decently and with respect. Dobby could probably be a tremendous help to Hermione in her efforts, if she chooses to consult him. He would know the points where the House-Elves need persuading, education, training, employment help, etc. He probably also knows where she is going to find active and extreme resistance among the Wizards and might be able to help her anticipate and deflect it.
If Hermione's bottom line with SPEW is true House-Elf emancipation, she needs to approach it with logic, common sense, and a great deal of compassion for and understanding of those she is trying to set free. JM2K, of course ...
Solitaire
Lina - May 27, 2007 12:22 pm (#2121 of 2486)
Thank you, Solitaire, indeed, for the help because I didn't know where to start with the answer.
The point is that I question the slavery of house elves. Although it is true that some wizard families treat them badly, not all of them do. It is in their nature to serve people. Think of Dobby. He was happy to be free because he suffered (more emotionally than physically) at the Malfoy house, but at the same time he followed Harry everywhere and wanted to work for him. Think of Winky. What was the worst punishment for her? To set her free. Dumbledore had house elves at Hogwarts. He didn't give them money for their work (mostly), he only treated them with respect much before Hermione was aware of their existence. Any of the house elves could have taken the clothes that Hermione was leaving for them around. But instead, they chose not to go to the Griffindor tower and Dobby had to do all that work. What is unimaginable for one person might be totally acceptable for another. And who gives the right to one person to say to the other how to live? By pushing house elves to rebellion, Hermione denied them the freedom to choose what they want in their life.
It might be just the extreme example, I can agree with that, but the fairy tales are about showing extreme examples.
Chemyst - May 27, 2007 12:41 pm (#2122 of 2486)
Slavery is not a custom or way of living. It's black and white wrong. – Pamzter
If slavery is black-and-white wrong, and house elves choose enslavement, then shouldn't we throw them all in Azkaban?
I don't think the term "slave" fully applies to the lot of the house elf. I see several distinctions between their work and true slavery that Hermione either refused to acknowledge or purposely overlooked.
(1) Slaves are property. House elves are not owned, but bound (attached) to a house. We have no canon to indicate they can be sold or traded for profit. They seem to have a hereditary indenture; a contract would have to be broken to end it.
(2) Several other characters have told her that the house elves like to work; it is their preference. Slavery is work forced against one's preference.
(3) The house elves were actually fearful of getting one of Hermione's knitted creations to the extent that only Dobby would clean the Gryffindor common room; (and we see that no one forced them to clean it anyway). In a very bizarre twist, these elves sacrificed their preferred work in protest against manumission.
Unarguably there are aspects of a house elf's life that have the appearance of slavery. But when they were offered a chance at self-determination, they chose the status quo.
I agree with Lina that this is a fairytale allegory that is making a statement on the importance of self-determination.
Choices - May 27, 2007 1:43 pm (#2123 of 2486)
Edited May 27, 2007 3:07 pm
Going back several posts to the comments about the fanfics pairing Snape and Hermione. I have often wondered what would have happened or how we would have perceived Snape if he had been portrayed by....say the guy who plays Filch, instead of Alan Rickman. Rickman has changed the whole way we look at Snape. Book Snape was never supposed to have the appeal or charisma that Rickman brings to the screen Snape. Under different circumstances, I could possibly imagine our Hermione having a school-girl crush on Snape - being drawn to his power as a wizard, his mystery and intelligence, but I would never pair them in a serious way.
Mrs Brisbee - May 27, 2007 2:11 pm (#2124 of 2486)
My seven-year-old was watching the movie this morning after listening to the book the day before. One of the first things she said was, "I didn't picture Snape looking like that! He's too good looking." Ah, the mysteries of movie casting. Anyway, my opinion of Hermione/Snape also falls firmly in the "Ick" category. For Draco, I just don't see him having anything that would ever attract Hermione.
Back to the slavery of the House Elves-- yes, it is slavery, I would say, because the wizards who employ the House Elves are allowed to treat it like slavery. The House Elves are bound to serve, and masters don't have to release them unless the masters want to. Beating House Elves seems to be legal.
But I agree with Solitaire's assessment of where Hermione went wrong. She didn't try to understand the creatures involved, or respect them. Maybe in the future she will pursue SPEW in a more mature way. Maybe she'll re-organize the Society under a different, better name, with an updated and more practical mission.
Jenniffler - May 27, 2007 2:56 pm (#2125 of 2486)
Hermione is right about house elf enslavement. She just has not found the right tactic to convince the house elves. An underground freedom plan is not the best way to lure out those oppressed by injustice.
I think those who see a need for change before all the pieces are in place should not be mocked for taking the wrong approach.
Another point might be that House-elves made a deal with wizards early on that allowed them to join a wizarding household, making most believe they are choosing to stay out of tradition or out of enjoying the benefits of magic in close quarters.
In a perfect world, house-elves would be like actors with the ability to option out of a magical tale. Hermione the uber agent.
wynnleaf - May 27, 2007 2:57 pm (#2126 of 2486)
Do the HP books actually call it slavery? Well, that is, I know Hermione may, but is it truly slavery in the Wizarding World? I guess what I mean is that if the house elves more-or-less bind themselves to the family, then aren't they more like life-time bond servants? As was said earlier, their families to whom their bound may have authority to tell them what to do, but they can't sell them off, only free them.
Overall, I agree with Solitaire's comments about this one. It's not that Hermione is wrong about freedom for house elves, but she goes about it completely wrong. It's a very parental attitude. I used to live in an area of a country where people were only a generation or two from stone age (literally). Westerners were often apt to think that they should be able to just come in and change people's lives "for the better" even if those people had no desire for it, or it would completely up-end their culture. Hermione reminds me of that attitude.
Solitaire - May 27, 2007 4:44 pm (#2127 of 2486)
Jenniffler, I do not think anyone was mocking (ridiculing or deriding) Hermione. We were criticizing--constructively, I think--a very real failure on her part to take into consideration some serious issues. I don't think this necessarily shows insensitivity. I do think it is just a reflection of her youth and idealism. Hermione sees what she perceives as an injustice and attempts to set about righting it, without having given the problem enough research.
Before I am attacked on the issue of her lack of research, I do admit Hermione did research in the Hogwarts library for a few days. But when she is attempting to set the the magical world on its ear, I think more than a few days of research is going to be required. She is going to have to do some serious interviewing with House-Elves from different backgrounds. She is also going to have to find out how House-Elves came to be in their current social status before she attempts to change it. Finally, she is going to have to come up with a plan to provide jobs and housing for all House-Elves who choose to become free.
Such changes are probably not something a young girl in school is going to be able to effect by herself. She is going to need the cooperation of the Ministry of Magic officials in various capacities. Somehow, I do not envision Crouch or Fudge showing much interest in her proposals at this time.
Solitaire
Jenniffler - May 27, 2007 5:04 pm (#2128 of 2486)
I do not think anyone was mocking (ridiculing or deriding) Hermione. --Solitaire
No,no! Not my fellow posters. People in the book. I meant in the book Ron teased her a lot about her approach. Sirius didn't care. I think she was less approachable beacause of her stance, like a suffragette in the mid 1800's.
Solitaire - May 27, 2007 11:52 pm (#2129 of 2486)
Somehow, I do not envision Crouch or Fudge showing much interest in her proposals at this time.
BTW, I was talking about the time frame when she started S.P.E.W. I realize Crouch is now dead and Fudge is no longer Minister.
Solitaire
Pamzter - May 28, 2007 2:59 am (#2130 of 2486)
Of the thoughts I was sure I was going to get slammed on (that Hermione went about it the wrong way or it mirroring Harry's situation), the last one I imagined was about my statement that slavery is morally wrong.
Slavery is one person being the property of (owned and controlled by) another person. It does not matter if it is by choice (bond servant/contract), or whether or not they “like” the work, or how well they are treated, or whether or not they fear freedom, or what is determined to be status quo.
Perhaps some will consider this all far too serious for these boards and the purpose of this particular thread, but with over 20 million people currently in bondage TODAY, I feel that I cannot be serious enough in making this point.
And now I will hold back on anything further and step down off my pulpit, take a deep breath, and go back to enjoying JK’s imaginary world and think about something light and frothy – maybe revisit the threads on pygmy puffs and Dumbledore as the Giant Squid.
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Jenniffler - May 28, 2007 6:57 am (#2131 of 2486)
Hear, Hear, Pamzter, Hermione agrees with you. I agree with you. I don't think the house elves do. This is what the books ARE about; the "whimzy" is to reflect real life and also provide comic relief. Otherwise, no one would stick aroung for the serious issues.
Hermione is heavy-handed. Perhaps if she would take a lighter stance we wouldn't trust her so much. Even when she vanishes repeatedly and sends birds pelting in a jealous rage, I feel she is anchored to someting more solid than fact and figures.
Hermione is the best real, fictional girl that ever there was.
wynnleaf - May 28, 2007 8:48 am (#2132 of 2486)
Of the thoughts I was sure I was going to get slammed on (that Hermione went about it the wrong way or it mirroring Harry's situation), the last one I imagined was about my statement that slavery is morally wrong. (Pamtzer)
I don't think anyone meant to "slam" you, just bring up some other points.
The problem with the slavery versus house elf thing is the preference of the house elves themselves. And that's what Hermione, mainly probably through immaturity I imagine, just doesn't see.
It's easy to say "free the elves," and "pay the elves," but that doesn't help if the elves actually don't want to be paid and don't want the bond broken. And JKR isn't completely clear about the whole thing, so it's hard to say that the bond of house elves in and of itself is a bad thing. Obviously, Hermione sees it as horrible because the elves can't get out of it and don't get paid.
Dobby still doesn't get paid. Not really. He just gets little benefits. He still will obey Harry unquestioningly. We might say "because he wants to obey Harry," or "he wants to serve Harry," but in fact the regular house elves want to obey and serve also. The main problem is that they can't leave if they want to leave. But on the other hand, they don't want to leave.
House elves are not human slaves and shouldn't be assumed to have human motivations, desires, etc. Hermione assumes they are just like humans - just smaller, with different powers, and deluded. Part of her immaturity is that she doesn't understand that they really are different and addressing their problems can't be done as though they all think just like her.
Soul Search - May 28, 2007 10:06 am (#2133 of 2486)
The house elves are sure they have a good thing going. In spite of the mistreatments of a few, generally they are well off.
They are provided for by those they serve. The work isn't hard or dangerous, just boring (to us, not necessarily to them.) They don't need wands, they can do a lot of magic without them. They don't need "sick leave," because they are taken care of, if sick. They don't need "pensions," they stay at their jobs, doing whatever they are capable of, until they die.
We saw this in GoF; the Hogwart's house elves tried to distance themselves from Dobby. They thought Dobby would ruin the good deal they had.
If house elves were free, what other work could they find? Who would pay them. Even Dobby couldn't find paid work.
No, house elves don't want to be "freed;" they have the best deal going of any magical creatures.
Lina - May 28, 2007 10:24 am (#2134 of 2486)
I would never say that slavery is not a bad thing. Never. What I say is that I'm not sure that it is slavery.
This time I'm helped by wynnleaf: House elves are not human slaves and shouldn't be assumed to have human motivations, desires, etc.
I agree. I don't really mean to compare the house elves with dogs, they are much more similar to humans than to dogs. I don't think that they are worth less because they are not human, but actually, I don't even think that dogs are totally worthless. And dogs are definitely much more happy if they have an owner than if they don't. Although it is true that there exist bad dog owners as well, and those owners shouldn't have dogs. The Muggle community even has its way to take away dogs from bad owners. Maybe Wizard community should have similar ways of protecting house elves. But giving them salary and setting them free won't make them happy. And making them unhappy that way is no better than being a bad owner. That is actually my point.
And it is also a fact that the history shows us too many situations where cultures were destroyed by bringing them "better life". I still think it is a good parallel.
If the house elves were really slaves, I don't think that Hogwarts would have any and I also don't think that Fred and George wouldn't support Hermione.
Solitaire - May 28, 2007 10:26 am (#2135 of 2486)
Pamzter, I am not sure you are understanding what some of us are saying here. NO ONE is disagreeing that slavery is morally reprehensible. In fact, the entire crux of what we are discussing here is that if Hermione truly wants to emancipate the House-Elves, she needs to do it properly, or they could wind up in worse shape than they are already. Her youth and idealism seem to have clouded her ability to see how to properly accomplish the task. By not properly preparing the House-Elves for freedom--and not having laws in place to protect them from those who would prey upon them once they are free--her actions could potentially endanger them. This doesn't mean that House-Elves shouldn't be set free. It just means that they must be freed in such a way that all of the magical realm recognizes their freedom and behaves accordingly.
Wynnleaf and, I believe, Chemyst also mentioned the idea of bond slavery. Bond slavery, according to Exodus 21:5-6, is a situation in which a slave freely chooses to remain in the service of his master forever, despite the option of freedom. It is possible that some of the House-Elves truly are in this position. They like what they do and choose to be where they are.
Jo has shown us four different House-Elf situations through Dobby, Kreacher, Winky, and the Hogwarts House-Elves. Dobby shows us a House-Elf who refuses to be completely bound by his enchantments when they violate what is morally wrong. Perhaps he is representative of a younger generation of House-Elves who are more socially aware of their position in society and would like to change it. He shows us that some House-Elves do not like their situations and will find a way to get around their evil masters, if they can. But as Wynnleaf points out, Dobby is more than willing to serve Harry. Even though Harry has never offered to pay him, Dobby would probably serve Harry out of genuine affection.
Next we see Winky. She seems to be representative of House-Elves who take pride in the fact that they are trusted servants and valued members of their households--despite the fact that we may feel the things they are asked to do are demeaning. She thinks Dobby is bad because he "abandoned" the Malfoys. Winky's identity seems bound up in her service to the Crouches. Once dismissed, she loses her sense of self. Unable to cope with the loss of her family, she becomes a substance abuser.
Then there is Kreacher, who seems to be both insane and somewhat evil. Was he made this way by those whom he served? Dumbledore seems to believe so. He certainly "spewed" the same venomous prejudices he no doubt heard his masters express--even though they probably held him to be an inferior being. Interestingly, even after Kreacher's employers died, he continued to stay with the house. Surely he could have gone free, had he wanted to do so. Who would have stopped him? So ... why didn't he leave?
Finally, we have the Hogwarts elves. They seem to enjoy their place in the order of things to the extent that they are afraid of accidentally doing something that might set them free. I wonder ... have they always been at Hogwarts, or are some of them like Dobby, refugees who fled evil masters? Perhaps working for such a gentle and benevolent master as Dumbledore seems like freedom to them.
I think Wynnleaf's last paragraph says it all: House elves are not human slaves and shouldn't be assumed to have human motivations, desires, etc. Hermione assumes they are just like humans - just smaller, with different powers, and deluded. Part of her immaturity is that she doesn't understand that they really are different and addressing their problems can't be done as though they all think just like her.
Solitaire
Catherine - May 28, 2007 2:12 pm (#2136 of 2486)
The debate about the meaning of slavery in the historical muggle world and the fictional wizard world and the debate about house elf enslavement should, in the end, relate to Hermione Granger.
The last several posts have veered away from that focus.
This is all a great discussion, so I encourage everyone to discuss it on the proper thread--or else make sure the post relates to Hermione in a significant manner.
journeymom - May 28, 2007 2:21 pm (#2137 of 2486)
Hermione is right about house elf enslavement. She just has not found the right tactic to convince the house elves. An underground freedom plan is not the best way to lure out those oppressed by injustice. Jenniffler
Here lies, possibly, the problem with Hermione's attitude. Maybe Hermione isn't going to convince them, but they are going to come to the conclusion themselves. A while back the suggestion was that if the elves believed their territory was under attack they would rise up and defend it. "Voldemort is not touching Winky's peaches!" Zzzappp!
But she does sometimes have the wrong attitude about non-human magical beings. Didn't she call the centaurs 'horses'? Notable, as Trelawney called Firenze 'the nag'.
wynnleaf - May 28, 2007 6:31 pm (#2138 of 2486)
One of the things that sometimes concerns me about Hermione isn't that she makes initial mistakes, but that I'm not sure that she learns that she has made a mistake.
In the house elf problem, she makes these mistakes of trying to push a freedom movement on the house elves. They obviously don't like it. But she doesn't learn anything from that. She starts this plan to trick them into freedom, which once again the house elves resent. Apparently, the rest of Gryffindor House "gets it" that the house elves absolutely don't like what Hermione is doing, but she still keeps it up.
If all this occurred over one year, and then Hermione learned from it that she needed to approach the house elves completely differently, I'd feel differently about what Hermione did. After all, she's a teenager and can certainly make mistakes. But she doesn't seem to be learning from her mistakes.
I don't want to get into the Marietta question, but I did note in HBP that when Hermione activated the coins to call the former DA members, the large majority of the members had either quit carrying their coins (meaning they weren't planning to continue with the DA), or just disregarded the call. The loyal few did continue to carry their coins, so it doesn't seem just coincidence that those certain few were the ones who still carried them, while everyone else just happened to think the DA was disbanded, or lost their coins, or whatever other purely coincidental reason of not answering the coin. We aren't told why the other members had apparently lost their commitment to the DA, but I wonder how much it was affected by learning that Hermione had secretly put a hex on the list they signed, thereby binding them magically without their knowledge. It's another case of "Hermione knows best" that other people can really resent, even if they don't in general disagree with the overall intent (of protecting the DA from informers).
I often feel like Hermione doesn't see her faults at all. I was so amazed at her berating Harry about supposedly using the Felix potion to give Ron good luck in a Quidditch game, when she herself had only shortly before used magic to make sure Ron's tryout went better than McLaggen's. It's like she had no sense of the hypocrisy of her attitude. One would think she'd be embarrassed to criticize Harry so much when she was well aware that Harry knew what she'd done during the tryouts. But no, she didn't appear to even think of it.
TheSaint - May 28, 2007 9:34 pm (#2139 of 2486)
wynnleaf - We aren't told why the other members had apparently lost their commitment to the DA, but I wonder how much it was affected by learning that Hermione had secretly put a hex on the list they signed, thereby binding them magically without their knowledge. It's another case of "Hermione knows best" that other people can really resent, even if they don't in general disagree with the overall intent (of protecting the DA from informers).
What about the 'Ernie, do you really think I'd leave that list lying around?' She proceeds to tack it to the wall of the ROR - seems to be lying around to me - and then Umbridge gets ahold of all of their names. Might give a person reason to think they should not continue, as the leaders are not so competent.
But, even Harry declares the DA unnecessary in the start of 6th year, and then wants to call on them at the end of the year. I always found that a bit strange.
Mrs Brisbee - May 29, 2007 7:14 am (#2140 of 2486)
Like Wynnleaf, I too wondered if Hermione's jinx and careless treatment of the Parchment would lead to members of the DA being wary of her, but nothing really seems to have come of it. I think TheSaint is right, and the DA dissolved because of the disinterest of its leaders. Umbridge was gone from the school, and Harry in particular seems to have little interest in DADA once Snape was made DADA professor.
Soul Search - May 29, 2007 8:00 am (#2141 of 2486)
wynnleaf,
Good characterization of our favorite know-it-all.
I think we see the same thing in smaller ways, like the "Homework Diarys" in OotP.
I hadn't thought of DA members fearing their coins, or Hermione, but I think you may have something there.
Choices - May 29, 2007 6:02 pm (#2142 of 2486)
Wynnleaf - "Apparently, the rest of Gryffindor House "gets it" that the house elves absolutely don't like what Hermione is doing, but she still keeps it up."
I may be mistaken, but I didn't get the impression that the rest of Gryffindor House cared one way or the other about house elf rights. I think it was only Harry who knew that Hermione was trying to "trick" them because Dobby told him he was taking the hats and things Hermione left around because the other house elfs resented it and refused to clean the Gryffindor area.
Wynnleaf - "....when she herself had only shortly before used magic to make sure Ron's tryout went better than McLaggen's."
This is nit-picky I know, but I don't think Hermione really had any control over how Ron's try-out went. She used magic on McLaggen and he did not do well, but Ron could have completely blown it and been even worse than McLaggen. She may have given Ron an edge, but it was then up to Ron to out-perform McLaggen.
wynnleaf - May 29, 2007 6:19 pm (#2143 of 2486)
As regards the house elves in Gryffindor, all of Gryffindor knew of Hermione's SPEW project. Surely people were bound to wonder about the hats, right? And absolutely they must have noticed that the elves wouldn't clean there anymore. This is a dorm, after all. Of course it got around exactly why the elves stopped cleaning.
Now about the Quidditch tryouts. Yes, Ron tried his best, but he didn't have to outperform McLaggen at his best. So the tryouts weren't fair because Ron's best might not have been up to McLaggen's best, and McLaggen wasn't given the chance to show that. Hermione cheated to give Ron a better chance in the tryouts, but berated Harry for supposedly giving Ron a better chance in a game.
Choices - May 29, 2007 6:40 pm (#2144 of 2486)
Wynnleaf - "As regards the house elves in Gryffindor, all of Gryffindor knew of Hermione's SPEW project. Surely people were bound to wonder about the hats, right? And absolutely they must have noticed that the elves wouldn't clean there anymore. This is a dorm, after all. Of course it got around exactly why the elves stopped cleaning."
I agree the kids knew about S.P.E.W., but they certainly were not interested in it. I doubt they even noticed about the cleaning because Dobby did it all himself and removed the hats each night. We are told that Dobby revealed to Harry that the other house elfs wouldn't clean Gryffindor because they resented the hats hidden about. It is possible that the other kids knew, but we are not told specifically that they did. It is just conjecture on our part.
rambkowalczyk - May 30, 2007 4:07 am (#2145 of 2486)
I tend to agree with Choices. Kids are oblivious to housework getting done or mot getting done. They may have noticed hats/socks lying around and thought nothing of it. Hermione could have even stated what she was doing out loud and been ignored by most of the students.
wynnleaf - May 30, 2007 4:36 am (#2146 of 2486)
Kids are oblivious to housework getting done or mot getting done. They may have noticed hats/socks lying around and thought nothing of it. Hermione could have even stated what she was doing out loud and been ignored by most of the students. (rambkowalczyk)
Well, I disagree that most students would be completely unaware of what Hermione was doing or the house elves disapproval. But that really isn't important to the point, which is that Hermione continues to attempt methods of forcing the house elves to accept freedom and over a period of years does not learn that this is counterproductive. Hermione isn't learning from her mistakes, nor even learning that they are mistakes.
As regards dealing with others, or her particular brand of self-righteousness (which JKR has openly admitted), Hermione has not grown and developed. She hasn't learned anything in this area, that I can see.
Die Zimtzicke - May 30, 2007 12:38 pm (#2147 of 2486)
What I can't understand is, it was not Hermione that tied the house elves to Hogwarts in the first place, and she certainly did not own them in any sense of the word. How was her hiding clothes for them too pick up supposed to free them? We know they can handle clothes, because they do ironing and laundry. Hermione was not their owner GIVING them clothes in any direct way. I don't think she freed anyone. I think she just hacked them off, with the exception of Dobby, who was the only elf not insulted by the gesture.
I don't think she knew what she was doing, frankly.
Lina - May 30, 2007 2:33 pm (#2148 of 2486)
Your point, Die Z, makes sense. But weather she was able to set them free or not, she was trying to do that against their will. It is really possible that they refused to clean the Griffindor tower because they were insulted rather than because they were afraid to be freed.
Die Zimtzicke - May 30, 2007 3:01 pm (#2149 of 2486)
I honestly think that is the case. She insulted them by trying to trick them. If it were as easy as them just picking up clothes, they wouldn't be able to iron and we know Ron's mother wanted one to do the ironing at one point, and that Dobby ironed his hands to punish himself, so presumably he was allowed to handle an iron.
That wasn't very bright of Hermione. If she really read up on them, she should have realized that their master has to directly present them with clothes somehow, which is what I think happens. It makes no sense to have them just be able to pick up clothes and be freed. Malfoy tossed the sock to Dobby in the book. Dobby didn't just pick up a sock lying around. It just was NOT one of Hermione's brighter ideas to leave hats lying around, in my opinion.
journeymom - May 30, 2007 3:17 pm (#2150 of 2486)
That's a really great point, Die Zim.
Catherine - May 30, 2007 3:36 pm (#2151 of 2486)
I honestly think that is the case. She insulted them by trying to trick them. If it were as easy as them just picking up clothes, they wouldn't be able to iron and we know Ron's mother wanted one to do the ironing at one point, and that Dobby ironed his hands to punish himself, so presumably he was allowed to handle an iron.
You already stated the point about intent. Intent is key here. Hermione intended to free them by default, or to free them by a subterfuge, as Harry freed Dobby. Dobby's intent, was toward freedom, and I conclude that he ultimately wished to be freed (given the extraordinary efforts he made to advise Harry of both his mistreatment and his desire to help Harry Potter). The majority of elves at Hogwarts, if our narration is correct, do not follow Dobby's example, and thus their wishes do not follow Hermione's efforts toward their (possible) freedom.
Weeny Owl [/b]- Sep 4, 2006 2:30 am (#2052 of 2486)
Horribly disfigured or not, the main characters know it's a war, and with an authority figure deliberately hampering everyone's chances of defending themselves, precautions had to be taken. Perhaps Hermione should have warned the signers as to what would happen, but they did all know that they had agreed not to discuss the DA. If Marietta had kept her word, she wouldn't have been in that predicament.
Madame Pomfrey - Sep 4, 2006 6:36 am (#2053 of 2486)
If Marietta was able to rush to Madame Pomfrey and have her Sneak Face righted,I don't think she would have learned anything.Hermione put out a message that you don't mess with the DA which I consider junior to The Order.
How would The Order have handled a traitor?
Weeney Owl, I agree with your post #2047.I didn't appove of Hermione's use of the confundus charm either.
LooneyLuna - Sep 4, 2006 8:19 am (#2054 of 2486)
How would The Order have handled a traitor?
Interesting question, Madame Pomfrey. I think Sirius and Lupin answered that in POA when they were going to kill Pettigrew for being a traitor/spy. But I'm not sure if that's how Dumbledore would have handled the situation.
As for Marietta, I'm sure her hex pustules were reduced to pimples by the St. Mungo's staff. She might always have a "scar" and need to wear make up to cover up. I think this is an excellent question for JKR because the answer wouldn't spoil the ending of Book 7.
I'm on the fence about Hermione's actions with the contract. I still feel she should have warned the people signing the contract that if they betrayed the DA, there would be consequences. She did not give them a choice.
wynnleaf - Sep 4, 2006 8:42 am (#2055 of 2486)
I'm on the fence about Hermione's actions with the contract. I still feel she should have warned the people signing the contract that if they betrayed the DA, there would be consequences. She did not give them a choice.
In fact, if Hermione had told the group about the jinx, Marietta would likely never have joined, nor anyone else with major reservations. And if she had joined, she'd have been a lot less likely to tell anyone.
If Hermione had been a little more interested in really gaurding against people revealing the group, rather than just in getting in her jinx without any one having the opportunity to object, she might have truly protected the DA.
Mrs Brisbee - Sep 4, 2006 9:56 am (#2056 of 2486)
Wynnleaf: In fact, if Hermione had told the group about the jinx, Marietta would likely never have joined, nor anyone else with major reservations. And if she had joined, she'd have been a lot less likely to tell anyone.
If Hermione had been a little more interested in really guarding against people revealing the group, rather than just in getting in her jinx without any one having the opportunity to object, she might have truly protected the DA.
I think this might be Hermione prioritizing, in a Hermione kind of way. I find it similar to the House Elf thing, where Hermione was busy hiding elf clothes in the Gryffindor Common Room in an attempt to trick them into freedom. Hermione was dead wrong to do this, but I think her feeling was that freedom ranked above all else.
In the case of the DA, I think Hermione wants to ensure that as many people as possible learn DADA, so they will be able to protect themselves in the coming war (I believe that was the stated purpose of the group, though I don't have my book handy to double check). So the protection of the DA actually took a back seat to the formation of the DA. Had she mentioned the jinx, the die-hard believers would have signed on, but maybe many others wouldn't have. They would have had a small, exclusive, and well-protected club, but I don't think that is what Hermione was aiming for.
Choices - Sep 4, 2006 10:08 am (#2057 of 2486)
Wynnleaf - "Funny how a "horribly disfigured" face of purple pustules that no one seems to be able to cure, in spite of all the wizarding abilities to cure practically anything with a potion or spell..."
Makes me wonder if they were really trying. Sort of like how the teachers couldn't get rid of the twins fireworks or the swamp they left behind - they left it for Umbridge to tackle. Maybe they wanted to leave the purple pustules there as a lesson for Marietta....Siding with Umbridge and ratting out your friends isn't cool.
LooneyLuna - Sep 4, 2006 10:14 am (#2058 of 2486)
I think this might be Hermione prioritizing, in a Hermione kind of way.
Mrs.Brisbee - I love it! That's a great way of putting it. To me, it also shows that Hermione still needs to mature. At the end of OotP, she's just starting to emerge from the "Know-it-all who will tell you how to live your life" to a "let people decide for themselves" adult. I guess what I would call "The Dumbledore Model."
wynnleaf - Sep 4, 2006 10:26 am (#2059 of 2486)
I don't quite understand why teachers, Pomfrey, or others would want to continue a "lesson" for Marietta when she's been obliviated about the event. What is she now learning? As far as I can see, there's not a lot to learn. "I don't remember anything except now I'm horribly disfigured and everyone says it's because I told on my friends." The only way I could see she'd really learn much from it now is if she had a history of telling on friends or being disloyal to others. Then, even though she wouldn't remember this instance, she'd remember enough from other instances to see that her disloyalty had finally caught up with her. But we have no indication of that.
If, on the other hand, this was the first time that Marietta had ever done anything so disloyal, or broken a contract, etc., then she no longer remembers doing it, or presumably, even her reasoning behind it. Therefore there is no history of disloyalty in her mind that she's learning to correct.
Um, and in case someone wonders, yes we do have evidence that obliviation of memories is permanent.
Die Zimtzicke - Sep 4, 2006 3:57 pm (#2060 of 2486)
Yes, that's the point. At this stage, the girl doesn't even know why she is "horribly disfigured", and she's presumably out of school, since she was a 7th year in HBP. We have no evidence her horrible disfigurement has been reduced to pimples. That's just plain NOT TRUE. We know she's trying to hide it with heavy makeup, but how successful that is, isn't clearly discussed. I would have thought her parents would have tried everything by now. It's been over a year.
It was not a contract. It was not presented as a contract. Terms were not discussed. Hermione was wrong as I see it. She was just as wrong as she was when she tried to trick the house elves and dumped all of the work on Dobby. She was just as wrong as she was when she used the centaurs.
She's a newcomer to the wizrding world and she thinks she knows everything about it better than everyone else just because she read some books. She doesn't. She can't. Experience still counts for something.
Steve Newton - Sep 4, 2006 6:05 pm (#2061 of 2486)
"It was not presented as a contract."
I think that it was. Everyone knew that by signing they were agreeing not to tell anyone, especially Umbridge, about the DA. Sounds like a contract to me. (That is not an exact quote but it is close.
The exact line from chapter 16, OOTP: "So if you sign, you're agreeing not to tell Umbridge--or anyone else--what we're up to."
It still sounds like a contract to me.
Solitaire - Sep 4, 2006 8:39 pm (#2062 of 2486)
Once again, Dumbledore was present in the office that day and saw Marietta's face. He also knew about Shacklebolt's spell to modify Marietta's memory. He had a year between that day and the time he died to do something about it--or direct Hermione to do something about it--but he didn't. Why not?
I certainly do not consider Dumbledore thoughtless or cruel or even unconcerned about his students. I don't think he would allow Marietta to suffer unjustly with no idea why. Just because we have not been told, isn't it possible that Dumbledore talked to Marietta (off-camera, of course) about the pimples and her actions? Harry isn't the only student to have been in Dumbledore's office. At the Hog's Head meeting, Terry Boot said one of the portraits in Dumbledore's office had told him about Harry having used GG's sword to kill the Basilisk when he was in there the previous year. I think it may be possible that Dumbledore has talked to Marietta.
Solitaire
Honour - Sep 5, 2006 4:04 am (#2063 of 2486)
Exactly Steve, an agreement was made and a contract signed. Marietta broke the contract and the agreement she made to her fellow DA members, and now she has to deal with the consequences of her actions, full stop already. Marietta proved that she is an untrustworthy and unhonorable young person. So what if she is/was only 16. Harry, Ron and Hermione would not have put Marietta in the risky position that she placed them and the rest of the DA. Pimples/Death. I think she got off easy!
Now, Marietta has the chance to prove that she has learnt her lesson, she'll either apologise and I would think that the pimples will heal, or JKR has them already healed by book 7 (and the Marietta bleeding heart brigade can breathe again), or JKR/Marietta shows us that she is really a nasty little miss and becomes a DE like Draco, let's see how far JKR pushes the envelope in this little sub-plot?
rambkowalczyk - Sep 5, 2006 6:03 am (#2064 of 2486)
In fact, if Hermione had told the group about the jinx, Marietta would likely never have joined, nor anyone else with major reservations. And if she had joined, she'd have been a lot less likely to tell anyone. Wynnleaf
I just wonder if outright telling the group would have been wise. Because if Marietta didn't join the group, she still could have told Umbridge about it later on. She could have gotten Cho to tell where the meetings were held and then could have told Umbridge and not face any consequences at all.
Although I generally agree with wynnleaf on the issue, I will admit that there is an important point made by the hardliners. That is there are some deeds that cannot be taken back and although the consequences are harsh it is the way things are. Life is unfair.
Madame Pomfrey - Sep 5, 2006 7:53 am (#2065 of 2486)
The same thing crossed my mind,Rambkowalczyk. Had Hermione told that it was a contract before hand,I see no reason why Marietta would keep quiet.She would have still snitched.We don't know why after 6 mo.she snitched. Dumbledore didn't reprimand Hermione for her actions that we know of,so perhaps he felt Hermione was right in doing this, being that this is war.I feel certain that Dumbledore would have questioned Marietta though.
Dumbledore told the student body beforehand that putting ones name in the GoF constituted a binding magical contract,Hermione didn't. What would happen if one of the champions withdrew from the Triwizard Tournament? Perhaps.. the word CHICKEN in pimples acoss their face.
wynnleaf - Sep 5, 2006 8:01 am (#2066 of 2486)
Hm, rambkowalczyk, you do have a point. Once everyone had come to the initial meeting, they all knew that the DA would become a group. So anyone leaving that initial meeting without joining could have informed Umbridge. However, they would only have known that the DA existed. At that point, there was no decree (I think) that such a group couldn't exist. Anyone not a member would not know about future meetings of the DA (after the decree banning such groups), nor where the DA met, nor when, etc. I'm not sure that such a person would know for sure who was leading the group once it got started.
So if Marietta had been told originally about the hex and had not joined, she wouldn't have been able to tell Umbridge much, other than that such a group had been formed at one point, and who had been there at the initial meeting.
However, if Hermione's motive was to entrap anyone who happened to come to the initial meeting (and I don't think it was her motive), that would have been quite dishonorable -- to have people come to an informational meeting and entrap them into joining with a punishment if they backed out.
I should be clear about something. I think Marietta's actions were very, very wrong. I have to admit, it's the kind of thing I could easily see Percy doing, had he been of the age to be there at the time. I don't like Percy and I don't like Marietta. Percy has less excuse to be the way he is, as his parents didn't encourage that kind of attitude and he had a lot more evidence of the realities of what the MOM was really like than Marietta ever got.
But that doesn't mean I think that Hermione's actions were right. I think it's easy to look at the HP characters in black and white. Often we're set up to accept whatever the "good guys" do as "good" just because they're on the right side, and supposedly have good motives. We're to see the "bad guys" actions as "bad" because they're on the wrong side. In HP, it's not just LV's side that's the "bad" side; the Ministry is generally seen as another "bad" side. Anyone supporting whoever is the Minister, Umbridge, or of their ilk are considered to be practically as bad an enemy as anyone supporting LV.
But we see everything from Harry's viewpoint. We know what Harry knows. We've "seen" Harry confront Voldemort. We've seen death eaters at work. We know everything Dumbledore tells the students at the end of GOF is true. We know Harry really saw a dementor on Privet Drive. We know he wasn't crazy when he said LV was back. We know Dumbledore may act really eccentric, but we know he's not crazy and his statements about LV are true.
But most of the WW knows no such thing.
When Fudge, at the end of GOF, wants to question Harry, DD won't let him. That's understandable to us. But look at Fudge. He's supposed to go out and just assume that based on the word of what Dumbledore has told him of a 14 year old kid who seems to act very strangely, that LV has returned. According to DD, Fudge should simply take his word for it.
Certainly Fudge should have not had Barty, Jr kissed by the dementors. But at the time, all he knew was that this really crazy guy had been alive and escaped from Azkaban, had impersonated Moody for a year (and Dumbledore, in his wisdom, hadn't known), and had somehow caused the death of Crouch, Sr. and Cedric. Sure Fudge made a mistake. But I'm not completely sure why Dumbledore looks at him and says something like he never really knew Fudge, yet seemed to have no such qualms about Sirius and Lupin when they were willing to kill Pettigrew as soon as they captured him. Why is it so less understandable that Fudge would immediately have Barty, Jr. kissed, than it was that Lupin and Sirius would plan to kill Peter immediately?
Anyway -- back to my point which is that Harry, Ron and Hermione have special knowledge no one else has. There's no particular reason why all of the students should trust Dumbledore over Umbridge, other than their own experiences with DD in the past. And the students are quite well aware that DD has been willing to allow his students to face lots of dangers in the past. DD is obviously strangely eccentric.
By the time Marietta told on the DA, the DE's had escaped from Azkaban. So even the WW had to admit that there was danger out there. But there's quite a leap from knowing that there are evil murderers in one's world (hey, that's always true, right?), to deciding that knowledge of their existence makes it okay to defy school and government rules to participate in a group to engage in banned studies.
But at the time Hermione set the hidden jinx, most of the students had no strong evidences to support believing Dumbledore over the MOM.
I'm simply pointing out that as bad as Marietta's actions were, we view them from a different perspective of knowing, far better than most of the students, just how bad the threat was. I believe this makes our judgement of Marietta much more harsh than perhaps it should be, therefore a horribly disfiguring jinx doesn't seem so wrong to many. But I also think, given that Hermione had the same knowledge we do, that her own judgments were based on her own knowledge of the danger, but without taking into consideration that most of the students involved did not have the same view she did -- even if they wanted to join the DA.
If she wanted a hex or jinx as a deterrent, she needed to inform people of it ahead of time. If she wanted a hex or jinx as an identifier of the person who broke the contract, she didn't need to necessarily use something that would horribly disfigure the person for the foreseeable future. The fact that she used a horribly disfiguring jinx as a hidden punishment for breaking the contract seems to me unnecessary for the task of identifying the betrayer, and an overly punitive action -- one more rooted in vengence than in expedience.
rambkowalczyk - Sep 5, 2006 9:22 pm (#2067 of 2486)
I will preface this by saying I agree with about 95% of your (wynnleaf's) last post. The rest is just nitpicking.
For starters, I believe that JKR meant for Marietta to be guilty of snitching on Harry to Umbridge. There is no imperious curse, no veritaserum, and possibly no real pressure from her mother. I consider it unlikely that Marietta had ethical issues defying Umbridges edicts. As some would argue why didn't she just report it to Flitwick.
I also don't believe that the majority of students would have realized they were signing a magical contract although informally they were told that by signing this paper they were agreeing not to tell Umbridge.
Hermione's actions don't bother me all that much. The jinx on the paper made it possible to find out who the traitor is so an innocent person doesn't get accused. After all when Umbridge put up her decree banning school organizations unless she approved, Harry and Ron both thought Zecharius betrayed them already.
I'm also not that bothered by Hermione brewing Polyjuice potion, although to a neutral adult it was a very dangerous thing that Hermione did. Were it not for the fact that she was a clever witch, she could have seriously harmed Harry and Ron. And as wynnleaf pointed out there was a lab explosion that could have hurt someone. She was threatened by Draco at least implicitly, so she felt drastic action was taken.
I do agree with Solitaire that Dumbledore did speak to Marietta about what happened and I wouldn't be surprised if he suggested to Marietta to settle this with Harry.
I do hope that this little tidbit is not a little tidbit, but is used by JKR to show that sometimes the good guys can be a little bit too righteous and that it can be as hurtful as anything the bad guys do.
Vulture - Sep 9, 2006 1:53 pm (#2068 of 2486)
Edited Sep 9, 2006 2:48 pm
However, if Hermione's motive was to entrap anyone who happened to come to the initial meeting (and I don't think it was her motive), that would have been quite dishonorable -- to have people come to an informational meeting and entrap them into joining with a punishment if they backed out. (wynnleaf [/b]- Sep 5, 2006 8:01 am (#2066))
I don't think it was simply an informational meeting, because by the end, everyone had signed and committed themselves to the D.A.
Also, I don't think it's exactly entrapment _ at least, I don't think it was entrapment into joining because Hermione made very clear that anyone who signed the list was agreeing to keep the D.A. secret from Umbridge. The seriousness of her look and manner can be judged by the immediate reaction of the others _ there were objections and even a discussion about the position such secrecy put the Prefects in as regards authority.
I won't go into detail just now, but I personally have my own reasons for agreeing with Hermione's decision not to broadcast about the Jinx, and I think knowledge of punishment is irrelevant to Marietta's (and everyone else's) duty not to betray comrades to whom a solemn promise has been given.
But with hindsight, it might have been better if Hermione had told Harry and Ron the full details about the Jinx from the start: when they were signing, Marietta "gave Cho a reproachful look", and because we know that Harry noticed, it's just possible that _ knowing about the Jinx _ he might have stopped Marietta from signing unless he was sure of her commitment. It's not likely, but possible. I say "with hindsight", because, of course, there was no special reason for Hermione to be watching Marietta at that stage, whereas Harry was noticing anything going on around Cho.
Nevertheless, in the end, it was up to Marietta herself not to join something if she didn't feel 100% about it _ I know all the objections, but Hermione made clear that a 100% attitude was what was required.
At this stage, the girl doesn't even know why she is "horribly disfigured", and she's presumably out of school, since she was a 7th year in HBP. (Die Zimtzicke [/b]- Sep 4, 2006 3:57 pm (#2060))
I think it might be worth posting a question on the "What would you ask JKR?" thread as to whether all Memory Modification spells are permanent. (I don't know if JKR ever looks in there, though she has said in the past that she likes visiting the Lexicon.)
There's no canon evidence for what I'm about to say, but (unless it can be proven that all Memory Modifications are permanent) my gut feeling is that Kingsley's hex was a temporary thing. Firstly, I think the issue of Marietta's treachery is meant to be clear _ she betrayed the D.A. and got punished, and knows why. Secondly, Kingsley's hex was a very rushed thing _ I doubt if he was able to pick and choose what to blank out; he probably just did a general blank-out spell. That would be consistent with the blank look in Marietta's eyes in the office, which didn't last. If Dumbledore hadn't stopped Umbridge from roughing up Marietta, I've a feeling that Kingsley's spell would have become obvious to Umbridge.
===================================================
I hope to post a message soon about Hermione's leadership during Book 5 (not just on the Marietta question, but generally). Cheers for now !!
Vulture - Oct 10, 2006 4:51 pm (#2069 of 2486)
Well, I was going to apologise for interrupting, but I see that no-one has posted for more than a month (and the last one was me !!).
=========================================================================
Anyway _ sorry if this is a completely-discussed-and-finished question which ye are all bored with, but I personally haven't seen any discussion of it:
Why have we seen no hint of Hermione, with all her brains, doing any Legilimency or Occlumency _ or even trying to learn about it ?
OK _ in Book 5, I appreciate that it was a new topic, and one which, moreover, was only being taught to Harry. But I would have thought that Hermione's intellectual curiosity would have led her to find out something about it by the end of Book 6. After all, this is a girl who reads up all sorts of stuff during her holidays, never mind her school year.
Given the above, I find it a little surprising that she hadn't mastered Legilimency or Occlumency by midway through 6th year _ and she could then have taught Harry, or at least tried to.
I was just thinking about whether she might have asked Dumbledore about Occlumency _ given that Dumbledore, in Book 5, said that it would have been better if he had taught Harry himself _ and that prompts me to wonder: just how much has Harry told her (and Ron) about his last conversation (if we can call it that !!) with Dumbledore ?
But anyway, I'd be interested in opinions on Hermione's virtual silence about Legilimency and Occlumency.
juliebug - Oct 10, 2006 5:36 pm (#2070 of 2486)
Occlumency and Legilimency seem to be things one can't learn from a book. Hermione tends not to have much interest in such things.
Choices - Oct 10, 2006 6:24 pm (#2071 of 2486)
I think Hermione has her plate full - S.P.E.W. and taking all the courses in POA, and helping Harry with the Triwizard (Viktor and the Yule Ball), etc. I don't think she has time to think about learning anything that she can't study out of books. She needs to be able to help Harry whenever he needs her - after all, she is one of the officially designated "side-kicks". Harry's needs are the most important. Besides, those subjects don't seem important for the average students at Hogwarts - they are not taught that we know of.
Dumbledore and Voldemort would need to know them, and Snape as a spy would, and Harry would to shut out Voldemort (he can already get into his mind), but I don't think the average wizard would need to know them.
Vulture - Oct 10, 2006 8:48 pm (#2072 of 2486)
Occlumency and Legilimency seem to be things one can't learn from a book. Hermione tends not to have much interest in such things. (juliebug [/b]- Oct 10, 2006 5:36 pm (#2070))
Yes, I suppose that is the most likely answer, but I was hoping that (a) Hermione might have broadened her intellectual curiosity beyond learning books by heart, and/or (b) read some reference to Occlumency and Legilimency somewhere.
Also, in Book 5, she was pretty good in assessing what Harry needed and helping him with it. She was always badgering him about Occlumency. I just thought she might have got interested enough to try it herself.
I think Hermione has her plate full - S.P.E.W. and taking all the courses in POA, and helping Harry with the Triwizard (Viktor and the Yule Ball), etc. I don't think she has time to think about learning anything that she can't study out of books. She needs to be able to help Harry whenever he needs her - after all, she is one of the officially designated "side-kicks". Harry's needs are the most important. Besides, those subjects don't seem important for the average students at Hogwarts - they are not taught that we know of. (Choices [/b]- Oct 10, 2006 6:24 pm (#2071))
Well, I'm not thinking so much of Book 4 as of the period between the Ministry battle in Book 5 to before her quarrel with Ron in Book 6.
Dumbledore and Voldemort would need to know them, and Snape as a spy would, and Harry would to shut out Voldemort (he can already get into his mind), but I don't think the average wizard would need to know them. (Choices [/b]- Oct 10, 2006 6:24 pm (#2071))
But would you call Hermione an average witch ? Besides, if the Trio are serious about Harry's declaration that he won't return to Hogwarts, you'd think it would occur to them that at least one of them is going to need Occlumency, if not Legilimency as well. Harry's fight with Snape made that painfully obvious _ his only chance with Voldemort is if the latter is fool enough to duel with his own wand again.
Steve Newton - Oct 11, 2006 6:49 am (#2073 of 2486)
Since ancient magic saved Harry back at Godric's Hollow I think that Hermione has been learning special stuff in her Ancient Runes class that will be very helpful. I think that is where she is putting her efforts.
I think that she should also be putting some thought into dealing with Rita. I don't see Rita sitting idly by even if Hermione says that she will never tell anyone the dreadful secret. If I were Rita I'd want Hermione dead or something really good on her.
haymoni - Oct 11, 2006 8:53 am (#2074 of 2486)
Vulture - Hermione wears her emotions on her sleeve. I wonder if she would be able to shut things down enough to do Occlumency.
Jo says that Draco is very good at that because he has shut down so many of his emotions already.
wynnleaf - Oct 12, 2006 9:12 am (#2075 of 2486)
Vulture - Hermione wears her emotions on her sleeve. I wonder if she would be able to shut things down enough to do Occlumency.
I agree that Hermione probably wouldn't be good at occlumency.
As regards legilimency, I would think that would be an ability that Hermione would consider sort of unethical -- trying to see into other people's thoughts. Not that I think Hermione is a truly very ethical person, but I think she'd have the sort of knee-jerk reaction that legilimency was a "bad" thing to do to someone else, so she wouldn't want to learn it. Just a guess of course.
But also, I think that JKR doesn't want Harry to be learning a great deal about this line of magic from Hermione. And maybe she doesn't want us to learn it either yet. So she might not want sections of text where Hermione is repeating explanations of occlumency and legilmency from books.
Similarly, you'd think that Hermione would investigate the in's and out's of an Unbreakable Vow, rather than depend on Ron's recollections of an incident that occurred when he was about 5. But the biggest reason Hermione didn't investigate any further is probably because JKR didn't want us to learn any more about it.
Vulture - Oct 12, 2006 5:58 pm (#2076 of 2486)
Just to be clear, it was Haymoni who said that "Hermione wears her emotions on her sleeve", not me. I'm not so sure.
In any case, I think Hermione would be better at it than Harry.
The problem is, at least one of the Trio is going to have to learn both Occlumency and Legilimency, pretty damn fast. Harry's fight with Snape showed that. If they don't, they might as well sit in a freshly-dug grave and wait for Lord V to shovel in the earth.
journeymom - Oct 12, 2006 11:02 pm (#2077 of 2486)
I don't think Hermione would be too bad at occlumency. If she were interested in it. She has an organized mind, is emotionally a bit more mature than Harry. Perhaps she wears her emotions on her sleeve compared to Snape. But he's an adult and has 20 years practice on her. And he's considered exceptional. If the plot required Hermione to learn occlumency, I think she'd do well.
juliebug - Oct 13, 2006 4:51 am (#2078 of 2486)
As Occlumency seems to be something one must be taught (we've discussed thoughts that it can't be learned from a book,} I don't know where or how Hermione would be able to learn it. Back when Snape was Harry's teacher, I was under the impression that he taught Harry because he had to. I can't imagine him willingly taking on Hermione as a student. Dumbledore was too busy to give lessons. Who does that leave?
haymoni - Oct 13, 2006 5:29 am (#2079 of 2486)
Edited Oct 13, 2006 6:28 am
I think we are done with anyone learning Occlumency. The only person that matters is Harry and JKR said he wouldn't be good at it.
Harry knows that Draco is adept at Occlumency. There could come a time where Draco lets Harry "in" so that Harry knows he is telling the truth, but I kind of hope Occlumency goes the way of Polyjuice Potion - enough!
Hermione is organized to be sure, but she is not calm - she gets excited and rushes off to the library; she can get pretty angry and resorts to violence and uses innocent birds! She didn't respond well to the Boggart in Lupin's test. I just don't know how she would do under the pressure of someone like Voldy or Bella or Snape trying to pry into her mind.
Perhaps if she had time to truly study it, she could develop the talent, but I just don't think there is time.
Die Zimtzicke - Oct 13, 2006 5:56 am (#2080 of 2486)
I agree with Haymoni. Harry is the only one it could do any good, as I see it. And he isn't the type to be good at it. So if Hemrione is going to help him anymore, it will be in a different way.
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wynnleaf - Oct 13, 2006 7:15 am (#2081 of 2486)
I think we are done with anyone learning Occlumency. The only person that matters is Harry and JKR said he wouldn't be good at it.
I would agree with you Haymoni, were it not for Snape's shouted comment to Harry at the end of HBP where he says that Harry needs to learn to keep his "mouth shut and his mind closed" (I think that was the phrase).
It's not because Snape said it that I think it's important. But in that context, I think it must be important or JKR wouldn't have included it. Harry's in the midst of a dueling situation which he can't win because he's basically "telegraphing" his intentions and his opponent can react to what he's going to do before he's even done it.
Since JKR was pointing that out through Snape's remark, it seems to me that this will be something that Harry will have to correct in book 7. Maybe he can't do occlumency, but on some level he'll have to learn not to telegraph his intentions or LV will know exactly what he's going to do when they next meet face to face.
However, I don't really think this is going to be something Hermione helps him with, or we'd have seen Hermione learning more about it already. Or then again, maybe she could learn more about it in book 7.
haymoni - Oct 13, 2006 8:24 am (#2082 of 2486)
We may see Harry trying to close his mind and I definitely think he needs to work on the non-verbal stuff, but Jo says he really can't shut things down, so he might not be too successful.
I wonder how Hermione will handle travelling around with Harry if she can't access the Hogwarts Library every time she has a question?
valuereflection - Oct 13, 2006 8:50 am (#2083 of 2486)
It would be fun to read about Hermione discovering a library for the wizarding world outside of Hogwarts. Or maybe she could create one. (I can dream, can't I?)
Chemyst - Oct 13, 2006 9:29 am (#2084 of 2486)
... but Jo says he (Harry) really can't shut things down, so he might not be too successful. -haymoni
Maybe this should go on a predictions thread, but... Draco is good at this. Draco is also with Snape. Occlumency could play into a climatic moment where these characters have to set aside their personal hatred for each other to defeat Voldemort. I like your idea of one letting another "in." In which case Hermione, (this being her thread and all,) is relegated to urging Harry to not be controlled by hate. And though it's likely Harry shall face LV alone, collective support will still be important.
S.E. Jones - Oct 13, 2006 2:20 pm (#2085 of 2486)
wynnleaf --I would agree with you Haymoni, were it not for Snape's shouted comment to Harry at the end of HBP where he says that Harry needs to learn to keep his "mouth shut and his mind closed" (I think that was the phrase).
It's not because Snape said it that I think it's important. But in that context, I think it must be important or JKR wouldn't have included it. Harry's in the midst of a dueling situation which he can't win because he's basically "telegraphing" his intentions and his opponent can react to what he's going to do before he's even done it.
Snape is a fair legilimens as well as being an excellent occlumens, so, yes, Harry learning Occlumency would be good in fighting someone like Voldemort or Snape, but again, this would only really be helpful to Harry as he's the one who's really going to be going toe to toe and face to face with Voldemort, so I don't think it will really do any good for Hermione to learn the subject. Oddly enough, though, it's Harry mind being open and his emotions being so raw that prevents Voldemort from using Legilimency on him, so I don't think he really has any need to learn to shut his emotions down, even if he does need to learn a bit more tact (as well as how to do a spell nonverbally). I definitely agree that we've seen the last of Occlumency, but I don't think we've seen the last of Legilimency (as getting in Voldemort's head, or allowing Voldemort into his head, is one of the easiest/surest ways for Harry to hurt Voldemort). Still, maybe this discussion should be moved to another thread.
I agree, though, that Hermione's helping will come in areas other than Occlumency/Legilimency.
xray - Mar 9, 2007 4:29 pm (#2086 of 2486)
In case anyone's interested, I have a little essay up over at TLC (The Leaky Cauldron) on Hermione's Career after Hogwarts.
In short, I think Hermione's going to end up working in Fred and George's joke shop for a while, perhaps as a partner. The essay explains all my reasoning. It's a fun little theory and it's all based on canon.
Enjoy!
Jadelollipop - Mar 10, 2007 12:02 pm (#2087 of 2486)
A very interesting theory Xray...quite convincing too...
Laura W - Mar 10, 2007 12:48 pm (#2088 of 2486)
I seriously doubt if this is what is going to transpire, but I must commend you on a well-laid-out argument, xray.
Laura
xray - Mar 10, 2007 4:05 pm (#2089 of 2486)
Thank you both!
journeymom - Mar 11, 2007 8:19 pm (#2090 of 2486)
Great essay!
I still think she'll be a barrister.
Gatorgrad1991 - Mar 12, 2007 8:03 am (#2091 of 2486)
Journeymom: I still think she'll be a barrister.
Me too; I always picture Hermione doing something related to the law when she leaves Hogwarts.
I think the fact that Hermione mastered non-verbal spells faster than either Harry or Ron will be a major contribution in Book 7. I can't see her coming out all of a sudden as a great Legilmens or Occlumens, since there have been no indications of this in canon up to this point.
Bible Spice - Apr 1, 2007 12:19 pm (#2092 of 2486)
Chemyst: Hermione is relegated to urging Harry to not be controlled by hate.
Hmmm. Shades of _A Wrinkle in Time_. I'm not sure if you envision Hermione on the side lines of a final battle as the sort of agape-cheerleader in Lengel's book, but I would find it very disappointing here.
Journeymom: I still think she'll be a barrister.
My hope is that she will move forward with the Elvish Welfare movement (thought perhaps not S.P.E.W. in particular). I confess that I find it very distasteful how the books do *not* seem to have a problem with the *system* of elvish enslavement, only with "bad masters".
Solitaire - May 6, 2007 8:59 pm (#2093 of 2486)
Over on the Founders of Hogwarts thread, I posted the following: I suppose one could say that wanting only the most intellectually gifted students is rather elitist ... but it hardly compares to Slytherin's prejudiced attitudes.
This started me thinking about Hermione ...
She told Harry once that the Sorting Hat had considered placing her in Ravenclaw. I wonder ... did she attempt to influence the Hat, as Harry did? If so, did it decide in favor of or against her inclination? She doesn't really say. She did say she was pleased to be in Gryffindor because Dumbledore had been in Gryffindor ... but was that her first choice?
I have often wondered what might have happened in Harry's stay at Hogwarts if Hermione had landed in Ravenclaw instead of Gryffindor. She has played a pivotal role in nearly every crisis in which Harry has been involved.
- She figured out the logic puzzle in PS/SS.
- She gave Harry the information about the Basilisk and the pipes (via the crumpled paper in her petrified hand).
- She used the time-turner to save Buckbeak, Sirius, and Harry.
- She helped Harry with the Summoning Charm and 4-Points Spell.
- She helped them lose Umbridge (although this was not a great use of her intellect, given the reaction of the Centaurs)
In HBP Hermione was not with Harry in his Big Adventure. Would things have turned out differently had she been there? How far will she go with Harry in Book 7? Will she be there for the Final Adventure?
Solitaire
journeymom - May 6, 2007 10:25 pm (#2094 of 2486)
Great observations, Solitaire. You're right, she wasn't there at the cave with Harry, though neither was Ron. I hadn't thought of it that way. I can't imagine how things would have turned out had she been there, there's no way it could have happened that way. But many of us have agreed that while Hermione (and Ron) will help Harry nearly every step of the way, Harry will take the last step by himself. She'll be there for him when it's over and help him figure out what just happened and help him come to terms with it.
Solitaire - May 7, 2007 6:56 am (#2095 of 2486)
Thanks, Journeymom. When I look back, I guess one of my questions is whether the Hat put Hermione in Gryffindor because it knew Harry would need her. Just exactly how much power does the Hat wield?
Solitaire
Mrs Brisbee - May 7, 2007 7:05 am (#2096 of 2486)
I don't think the hat put Hermione in Gryffindor because of Harry. She and Hearry weren't friends at that point. She was friends with Neville, but she was sorted before either of them.
I think she was put into Gryffindor on her own merits. Didn't she say something about Gryffindor House sounding the best, with Ravenclaw being second? Hermione values bravery above brains, I think, and that's why she would be there, despite her Ravenclaw quality smarts.
Die Zimtzicke - May 7, 2007 9:21 am (#2097 of 2486)
I have a real problem with the hat putting kids who know next-to-nothing about the wizarding world where they think they want to go. How does it know they really understand what they want at age eleven? It should put them where it thinks they are best, based on the traits in them it detects, period.
With Harry, you can at least say it was seeing Voldemort inside him, but you can't say that with Hermione. I don't know why it chose Gryffindor, except to advance the plot. I guess Jo felt she had to explain why Hermione was so smart, but not in Ravenclaw, so she made it a decision that could have gone either way.
Mrs Brisbee - May 7, 2007 9:42 am (#2098 of 2486)
Hermione is brave. She's not afraid to speak up. She will do things that are risky if she thinks them worthwhile-- she's just not as brazen or foolhardy as some of the other Gryffindors. She organized the unpopular SPEW, so she isn't afraid to fight for what she thinks is right even if it is an unpopular cause. She organized the DA, which could have gotten them all thrown out of school. That convoluted Polyjuice plot in CoS was her idea. As a Prefect, she stood up to Fred and George while Ron waffled. She goes with Harry on his dangerous missions, starting in their first year. And she herself called Harry a great wizard in PS/SS-- not because he possessed super powerful magic, but because he was fighting for what was right, which proves right there her feelings about being brave enough to do the right thing. I can think of lots of other times Hermione showed bravery.
If the Sorting Hat saw both bravery and brains in her, but also saw that bravery was the trait she admired more and would like to cultivate, then why not put her in Gryffindor? I don't think she was misplaced, although she would have undoubtedly done well in Ravenclaw. Sometimes the Sorting Hat took awhile to place a new student, so I think it safe to say many of them had strong qualities that suggested several Houses might be a good fit.
journeymom - May 7, 2007 10:15 am (#2099 of 2486)
"I have a real problem with the hat putting kids who know next-to-nothing about the wizarding world where they think they want to go. How does it know they really understand what they want at age eleven? It should put them where it thinks they are best, based on the traits in them it detects, period. "
My impression is that they don't need to know anything about the wizarding world as that's not the criteria the Hat uses to place them. I think the Hat does put them where it thinks they are best suited, based upon the personality traits it detects in them, period. The Hat's first speech describes what the Founders were looking for, and aside from Slytherin's pureblooded prejudice, none of the criteria had anything to do with magic but were universal human traits. Besides, Slytherin's prejudice is the fault in the House system that needs to be fixed. It's an important plot point.
The Hat doesn't know if they understand what they want, and that's not one of its criteria for sorting. Others here have observed, and I agree, that the Hat seems to use a fantasy, fairy-tale like Myers-Briggs personality quiz to sort the students. It doesn't ask the students bunch of questions, but it senses what's in them. Many people take the Myers-Briggs test when they're teenagers, and then again when their adults, and the results are the same, even if what they want changes several times, throughout the rest of their lives.
"With Harry, you can at least say it was seeing Voldemort inside him, but you can't say that with Hermione. I don't know why it chose Gryffindor, except to advance the plot.
Well, this is fiction. Everything, absolutely every act, is there to advance the plot. Perhaps the problem you have is that some of JKR's points are worked into the plot with more finesse, more realistically, than other plot points. Specifically, Hermione's sorting seems unrealistic or awkward, to you. If so, your problem is with the author, not the Hat.
I guess Jo felt she had to explain why Hermione was so smart, but not in Ravenclaw, so she made it a decision that could have gone either way. "
Yes, that's it, exactly.
journeymom - May 7, 2007 12:20 pm (#2100 of 2486)
Too late to edit, above.
Regarding the curtains on Mary Grand Pre's cover of PS and DH, somebody (multiple somebodies, probably) suggested this is evocative of a play, beginning and end. This makes sense to me.
Die Zim, you believe the sorting process is too arbitrary and plot driven. This got me thinking, because the more symbolism, simile, analogy, mythology and external structure I find in the HP stories, the more it seems as though all the characters are merely players playing a part. Some characters more multidimensional than others.
Maybe I haven't analyzed any story as much as I have the HP story. It could be that all stories are like this, I don't know. But it does seem as though JKR has a overriding goal she's working her way toward, and she's got her characters on a strict path, and therefore they go where she wants them to go, do what she wants them to do. Meanwhile she doesn't necessarily fill out their characters fully. In her dream she mentioned, "...trying to make the people around me say lines I had pre-arranged for them."
"All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players.
They have their exits and their entrances,
And one man in his time plays many parts,
His acts being seven ages." -Shakespeare, As You Like It
wynnleaf - May 9, 2007 2:44 pm (#2101 of 2486)
Well, this is fiction. Everything, absolutely every act, is there to advance the plot. Perhaps the problem you have is that some of JKR's points are worked into the plot with more finesse, more realistically, than other plot points. Specifically, Hermione's sorting seems unrealistic or awkward, to you. If so, your problem is with the author, not the Hat. (journeymom)
Excellent comments that could apply to any number of things we feel are inconsistent, unrealistic, or awkward in HP.
But it does seem as though JKR has a overriding goal she's working her way toward, and she's got her characters on a strict path, and therefore they go where she wants them to go, do what she wants them to do. (journeymom)
Another great observation. I get the feeling that, whether Hermione or any other characters, JKR doesn't often have the experience many writers describe of the characters going off in their own directions, or doing things the author never expected.
Die Zimtzicke - May 9, 2007 4:04 pm (#2102 of 2486)
Jo is different from some writers who do create great characters and let the plot derive somwhat from who the characters become. Jo seems to be more the type who has a plot and the characters are only there to fit in it. She HAS occasionally made changes to her original plot; I know that, so don't get me wrong, but I think a lot of the complaints people have with her characters seeming out of character is that they do whatever is necessary to move the plot, in spite of how they have behaved previously in different situations.
Gatorgrad1991 - May 22, 2007 6:58 am (#2103 of 2486)
Hermione has always seemed to me to be a perfect fit for Gryffindor, mainly because she has tremendous moral and emotional courage. She is far from being a physical coward, but that is not where her real strength lies. I think the Sorting Hat chose extremely well in Hermione's case; although she may be suited to Ravenclaw she has shown herself to be a true Gryffindor.
Solitaire - May 23, 2007 2:19 am (#2104 of 2486)
I do think Hermione has developed courage, but in the very beginning, she was just a bossy, know-it-all buttinski. She tagged along on the midnight duel not because she was interested but because she was ragging on Harry and Ron for going in the first place. I don't think she really got into the game until the Troll business. After that, well ...From that moment on, Hermione Granger became their friend. There are some things you can't share without ending up liking each other, and kknocking out a twelve-foot troll is one of them. JM2K, of course ...
Solitaire
journeymom - May 23, 2007 2:09 pm (#2105 of 2486)
Eww, troll bogeys!
frogface - May 24, 2007 11:53 am (#2106 of 2486)
I do think Hermione has developed courage, but in the very beginning, she was just a bossy, know-it-all buttinski. I disagree with this. I don't think she was just a bossy-know-it-all when she first joined Hogwarts. I think she was just a lonely girl who'd never had many friends, and didn't really know how to interact with other children. She is an only child after all. I think Hermione always had tremendous bravery in her though, after all the Sorting Hat spotting this in her long before the Troll incident, didn't it? Its just that it took Harry and Ron, who are more laid back, to bring that daring and courage out of her. I think Hermione must be tremondously brave, because even though she's very clever and very hard working, her bravery was what the Hat seemed to take note of.
Chemyst - May 24, 2007 12:35 pm (#2107 of 2486)
… and didn't really know how to interact with other children. She is an only child after all.
Yes, she is an only child now. We know JKR said she originally was going to give Hermione a younger sister but did not have room to fit it in. So I am going to make a leap and say that with or without a younger sister, Hermione's personality would still been written to make her socially inept upon her arrival at Hogwarts.
Even though she did not know she was a witch and certainly had not been trained, I'd imagine some of her latent powers would have affected her social life. She probably attended a muggle school for several years before coming to Hogwarts. Being an undiagnosed witch is probably more likely to cause social problems than being an only child would.
journeymom - May 24, 2007 12:37 pm (#2108 of 2486)
James, Sirius and Draco are all onlies, and non of them had/have problems fitting in. You might not like Draco, or the other two for that matter, but none of them were social outcasts.
Solitaire - May 25, 2007 7:12 am (#2109 of 2486)
You are correct, Frogface. She is and was all the things you say. Alas, she was still a bossy, know-it-all buttinski. I think her behavior in PS/SS--in the chapter entitled The Midnight Duel-- is a perfect example of this. I'm not saying her presence wasn't needed (It was!) and I'm not saying she wasn't right (She was).
I think Hermione felt rather insecure when she first entered Hogwarts. Her behavior seemed rather typical of a lot of the bright, insecure children I teach at school. Some just pull into themselves and are afraid to exhibit any of their knowledge for fear of teasing by their less gifted but perhaps more socially adept peers. Others appear to try and compensate for what they may feel--and this is based only on information from some of my kids and their parents--are inadequacies by freely exhibiting the things they DO know. Unfortunately, this often has the opposite effect and the kids are perceived by peers as know-it-alls. This is how I see what happened with Hermione up to the Troll incident. JM2K, but I think it is right, based on similar experiences with my own students of this age. Actually, when Hermione steps up and takes the blame in the Troll incident, something important happens: She makes others (Ron and Harry) come off looking good at her own expense, showing herself capable of making a sacrifice for others. She also shows herself worthy of their friendship ... and they respond by giving it.
I could say more, but if I did, I'd be late for school!
Solitaire
Lina - May 26, 2007 2:26 am (#2110 of 2486)
Journeymom, Sirius wasn't an only child.
I agree, Soli, that Hermione was know-it-all mostly because she felt insecure. I also agree with Chemyst that she must have been compensating her differences from other children by knowledge. I just find it interesting. Both, Harry and Hermione, were afraid of how will they fit among witches and wizards that they knew nothing about their way of life. Yet, they didn't react in the same way to that fear. I guess Hermione just needs a lot of knowledge to feel confident.
xray - May 26, 2007 8:46 am (#2111 of 2486)
Hi Everyone!
I went to Phoenix Rising conference in New Orleans this past week and one of the sessions I attended was a roundtable discussion on Hermione. It was titled Hermione's Helping Hand: How the "Brains" of the Trio has Aided in Harry's Heroic Journey.
Here are some of the things that were discussed:
Do you identify more with Hermione or Luna?
Is Hermione the chosen one? (everyone said no).
Will Hermione die? (Most said no, some said possibly).
Regarding Films: Almost all said they can't stand Emma Watson. Magical Pink, non bushy hair, more and more blonde every movie, low rider jeans, etc, is not Hermione. Most are angry she got all Ron's great lines.
Did she snog Krum? Most said yes.
Did she go further? 2 or 3 said yes, everyone else said no.
What advantages does she have to being Muggleborn?
She has an outsider perspective of the wizarding world. If she was born in a wizarding family she might not be as good a student because she may not try as hard as she does.
How many witch inventors were muggleborn? Is this due to ability to understand logic?
Hermione doesn't take things for granted either. She's very bright.
About her parents... does she tell them everything or hide some things from them? Most agree she is hiding a lot of things.
Are her parents going to be targets in DH?
Ron/Hermione
What is the role of Ron and Hermione's relationship in book 7?
Do you hate Ron? (About half the room didn't like Ron).
Would Hermione love Ron and want to be with him if he got his act together? What about if Ron didn't need her as much as he does. Is Hermione needy of this? i.e. does she need someone else to need her the way Ron does? She needs to be needed.
A couple people agreed that Ron/Hermione will happen in DH but it won't last because Hermione will get frustrated with Ron.
A rebuttal was that Ron will mature and rise to the occasion in book 7.
Moderator thinks "the trio needs to be a couple." They can't function without each other.
Was Hermione too harsh with Marietta Edgcombe and "Sneak?" Everyone said no.
Is Hermione more loyal or does she have a greater fear of failure? Almost all say her fear of failure supersedes her loyalty.
Is Hermione competing against others or against herself? Most say herself.
What about Hermione and the sorting hat? She was on the border between Gryffindor and Ravenclaw, but the hat put her in Gryffindor. We don't know if she chose Gryffindor like Harry did (not slytherin), but we do know that Hermione thought Gryffindor was the best (she said so on the train). We think this was what pushed her into Gryffindor because she thought it was the best of all the houses.
Hermione sees potential problems. She made a huge leap about the basilisk in the pipes.
She thinks very quickly: Centaurs in OotP. She has a ruthless pragmatism. She's a good strategist but doesn't play her hand; she researches everything first.
What were her biggest mistakes? Ron distracts her and fuzzes up her judgment. Hermione can't process her emotions--she can't study for them but it doesn't affect her ability to do magic.
There are two big mistakes she made: one with the House Elves and one with the Centaurs (she said "I knew you would help us" and didn't think of the response). In both cases, her mistakes were made against non-humans.
She has strengths and weaknesses because she's an outsider.
Hermione is the key to bringing in some outside creatures for the final war.
There was also some discussion about Hermione/Snape (lots of the girls there loved this 'ship a lot) and Hermione/Draco. The question the moderator put forth was what makes these ships so attractive in fanfic?
Solitaire - May 26, 2007 9:31 am (#2112 of 2486)
Hermione/Snape and Hermione/Draco? ROTFLOL Since this is not a 'ship thread, I'll leave it at that. I certainly agree that Hermione has gotten Harry off the dime more than once when he has been stalled.
About her relationship with Ron ... I wonder sometimes if she is not as much in love with his family as she is with him. To be sure, she has parents who are alive and love her. Their presence in Diagon Alley also suggests to me that they are accepting of her magical abilities--even if they do not understand them--and that they are also not averse to meeting the people who have become important in her life. However, they do seem unusually willing to allow her to spend nearly all of her free time with the Weasleys from a very early age. Then again, we do not know what has happened with them "off camera." Perhaps they have talked to Dumbledore or McGonagall about Hermione's "cross-over" between the Muggle and magical worlds and have come to understand that the magical world will naturally pull her away at an earlier than usual age. They may feel that she is better off spending her vacation time with the Weasleys in a family atmosphere-where she will receive more supervision and certainly more caring and warmth--than she would be with a girlfriend (if she has one) whose parents might give them too much freedom. Just my thoughts ...
It's interesting to consider her actions with regard to the House-elves and Centaurs. She is so outspoken about how they have been badly treated and rejected by many in the magical world ... yet she attempts to use the Centaurs and she continually offends the House-Elves. I wonder if she has ever stopped to examine her own behavior and attitudes there. She has taken up the "cause" of the House-Elves, even though there does not seem to be a cause just yet. Hermione is still young, however, and she must learn to think farther than her immediate actions to what their effects on her and others might be. I think this is coming, and when she combines her intellect, her magical abilities, and a more mature knowledge of human nature, I believe she will prove to be a very powerful witch.
Solitaire
journeymom - May 26, 2007 10:47 am (#2113 of 2486)
Edited May 26, 2007 11:48 am
Journeymom, Sirius wasn't an only child. D'oh! [Slaps forehead] I do know that.
Do you identify more with Hermione or Luna? A combination of both.
Will Hermione die? (Most said no, some said possibly). I certainly hope not. I vote 'no'.
Regarding Films: Almost all said they can't stand Emma Watson. Magical Pink, non bushy hair, more and more blonde every movie, low rider jeans, etc, is not Hermione. Most are angry she got all Ron's great lines. I love Emma Watson, though I got tired of the eyebrow waving in GoF. I can only hope that was the fault of the director. I don't have a problem with her dressing like a modern day kid when she's not in her school robes. And yes, it's a real shame that she got so many of Ron's great lines.
Did she snog Krum? Isn't this canon? She told Ron she did, didn't she? If so, I think it's hysterical that she got her first kiss before Ron or Harry or Ron did.
Did she go further? Oh, for pity's sake. Of course she didn't. Unless we're counting groping. That's realistic. Kind of fits in the category of 'snogging'. I love that word. Much better than 'making out'.
What advantages does she have to being Muggleborn? Logic. She was the one who solved Snape's (the half-blood) potions riddle. Not that Harry's not logical, but her mind is more disciplined than his is. Somewhere, probably in PS/SS JKR says muggles are more logical than wizards and witches, I believe.
How many witch inventors were muggleborn? Is this due to ability to understand logic? Good question. See answer to above. There's no way to know how many inventors are muggleborn, but that's an interesting thought.
About her parents... does she tell them everything or hide some things from them? Most agree she is hiding a lot of things. Hermione hiding the fact that there is a war going on in the wizarding world is a common point in the fan fic world. It has the ring of truth but I don't think she's hiding anything. She has a hard enough time defying the teachers that she respects. She wouldn't lie to her parents.
Are her parents going to be targets in DH? It's reasonable to think so, but I vote no.
What is the role of Ron and Hermione's relationship in book 7? What will it look like? It will strengthen. What roll? I dunno, serve as a reminder that love and affection is a wonderful thing?
Do you hate Ron? (About half the room didn't like Ron). Heavens, no. I love Ron. Ron's the bomb. I suspect the people who actually hate him (hate is such a strong word), are trying to set Hermione up with somebody else. They conveniently kill Ron off in the final battle so somebody else can swoop in and comfort her. :eyesroll:
Would Hermione love Ron and want to be with him if he got his act together? What about if Ron didn't need her as much as he does. Is Hermione needy of this? i.e. does she need someone else to need her the way Ron does? She needs to be needed. 'Would' she? She already does love Ron and wants to be with him. His act is together, as much as any other teen boy or girl his age. Hermione 'needs' Ron as much as he needs her. And everybody likes to be needed. Ron isn't an incompetent, Hermione is not this super hero.
A couple people agreed that Ron/Hermione will happen in DH but it won't last because Hermione will get frustrated with Ron. They're fooling themselves.
Moderator thinks "the trio needs to be a couple." They can't function without each other. Wow, that's really dysfunctional. None of them strike me as that weak. Yes, Harry will need his two best friends (and Ginny), in some capacity, to help him along the way to achieving his ultimate goal.
Was Hermione too harsh with Marietta Edgcombe and "Sneak?"No, I think the Sneak spell foreshadowed and parallels the Unbreakable Vow. And shows how talented and smart Hermione is. And loyal to Harry and the just cause.
Is Hermione more loyal or does she have a greater fear of failure? Almost all say her fear of failure supersedes her loyalty. Huh? I'm not sure how the one effects the other. And I don't she particularly fear failure anymore, no more than Harry or Ron, certainly. I think the fact that she took on that huge course load in GoF proves she doesn't fear failure. She obviously bit off more than she could chew. Her worst fear is academic failure, but that doesn't mean she's particularly fearful.
Is Hermione competing against others or against herself? Most say herself. Agreed.
What about Hermione and the sorting hat? She was on the border between Gryffindor and Ravenclaw, but the hat put her in Gryffindor. We don't know if she chose Gryffindor like Harry did (not slytherin), but we do know that Hermione thought Gryffindor was the best (she said so on the train). We think this was what pushed her into Gryffindor because she thought it was the best of all the houses. Harry didn't choose Gryffindor, did he? He simply begged the Hat not to put him Slytherin. The Hat chose Gryffindor for Harry.
There was also some discussion about Hermione/Snape (lots of the girls there loved this 'ship a lot) and Hermione/Draco. The question the moderator put forth was what makes these ships so attractive in fanfic?
Granger/Snape, the love that dares not speak its name. I used to be a rabid HG/SS shipper, but I had to really suspend reality and my sense of ickiness. There are lots of classic May/December stories out there (Eliza Doolittle and Professor Higgins) but really, this is more like March/August! Doesn't matter how old Hermione is when they force them together. And I really think JKRowling was probably horrified and disgusted by the whole phenomenon when she discovered it.
But I will say that I see some similarities between Severus Snape and Hermione Granger, and perhaps others do and take that next, fan girly, romantic step of putting them together. Draco, Snape, it's the whole bad boy thing. Draco might turn out not to be a 'bad' guy, but I suspect he will still think muggleborns are inferior.
Solitaire - May 26, 2007 2:44 pm (#2114 of 2486)
Draco might turn out not to be a 'bad' guy
As far as I am concerned, Draco has already turned out to be a bad guy, based on his past comments and behavior. It's possible that he might relent or reform, but I do not expect it unless he has a major falling-out with his family. His prejudices seem deeply ingrained, and I believe it would require something that shook his faith in his family to the core, before he would admit he was full of ... stinksap! But this is Hermione's thread.
I just can't even entertain a Snape/Hermione thing. Even setting aside the teacher-student ethic and accepting the "maybe Snape really is a good guy in disguise" argument, Snape is still not a pleasant human being. Do you think he will ever forgive Hermione for helping to zap him back in the Shrieking Shack? I don't. I think Snape holds big, nasty grudges.
Solitaire
Chemyst - May 26, 2007 4:37 pm (#2115 of 2486)
xray reporting on Phoenix Rising conference: Was Hermione too harsh with Marietta Edgcombe and "Sneak?" Everyone said no.
No kidding? A consensus? I'm thunderstruck!
Die Zimtzicke - May 26, 2007 7:58 pm (#2116 of 2486)
Yes, a consensus, but you have to remember...I wasn't there. LOL!
Do you identify more with Hermione or Luna?
Oh, Luna without a doubt. But I have to admit, the movie contamination is getting to me slightly. Emma is less and less like Hermione in every film, while Evanna seems to be a perfect Luna. But I would still like Luna better, even if I hadn't of seen the films.
Will Hermione die?
I would have voted 'no', but I wouldn't throw the book out the window because of it if it happened.
Regarding Films:
See above...
Did she snog Krum?
Yes, and probably a BIT more than that. He was older, and she was flattered.
Did she go further?
See above. But I don't mean anything that requires a trapeze or a bottle of chocolate syrup.
What advantages does she have to being Muggleborn?
It has advantages and disadvantages. I think she's trying so hard to fit into this new world she's found, that she is drawing away from her parents deliberately, and to me that's a mistake. But it's an advantage in that I think more contact with muggles, or at least the muggle relatives of muggleborns, is necessary.
How many witch inventors were muggleborn?
No idea. I don't think it matters.
About her parents... does she tell them everything or hide some things from them?
I would also agree she is hiding a lot of things. I hope it doesn't come back to bite her. I disagree that she has a hard enough time defying the teachers that she respects and that she wouldn't lie to her parents. She's getting MUCH better at lying.
Are her parents going to be targets in DH?
I think it's possible, but I would have voted no simply because they are practically non-existant in the books, and something happening to them wouldn't make too many people reading them all that fussed. It would be like killing Charlie Weasley to me. I'd feel a moment's pang, but I'm just not really that invested in his character.
What is the role of Ron and Hermione's relationship in book 7? What will it look like?
It will happen, and it won't bother me, but it won't be done well enough to suit me totally. I think Jo's main weakness is in her romance writing.
Do you hate Ron?
Oh, no. I like Ron. Ron's my favorite Weasley. But I do NOT think people who said they hated him were just disgruntled ex-shippers. That's a horrible generalization to my mind. He's just a much more simplistic character than some of the others, and some people just like complex characters. Not everything has to revolve around ships. I can tolerate almost ANY het ship myself.
Would Hermione love Ron and want to be with him if he got his act together?
One of the most irritating things Jo ever said as I see it was her comment about Ron becoming worthy of Hermione. That made me sick. They both have to mature a A LOT before they can make ago of it, not just him.
A couple people agreed that Ron/Hermione will happen in DH but it won't last because Hermione will get frustrated with Ron.
We won't see it that far into the future, I think. So that will be the realm of fan fic. I'm one of the few that disagrees an epliogue means we'll see them all talking to their grandchildren and find out everything that happened in the meantime. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, and I'll admit it, but I don't think it should or will go that far.
Moderator thinks "the trio needs to be a couple." They can't function without each other.
The trio supercedes everything else. Anyone else that can help Harry is useful and can be a good thing, but to me the trio will always be stronger than anything else. UNLESS we have a complete sextet, the trio will be the main focus for me and I hope it will end as it began.
Was Hermione too harsh with Marietta Edgcombe and "Sneak?"...
Heck, yes. No one should be able to be held to contract when they didn't know the details of what they were signing. It makes me very upset, too, that it seems to be permanent. I don't think anyone should have to pay forever for something they did when they were 16.
Is Hermione more loyal or does she have a greater fear of failure?
I agree that her fear of failure supersedes her loyalty. It does not make her disloyal, exactly, but it sometimes makes her careless, which can be dangerous.
Is Hermione competing against others or against herself?
She's competing against herself AND the entire world. Look at how she felt about Pansy making prefect, or Harry beating her in DADA and in potions. And she just hated being wrong about Ron's performance at Quidditch.
What about Hermione and the sorting hat?
She rightfully should have been in Ravenclaw, but then we'd have no story. It's just a plot point.
There was also some discussion about Hermione/Snape (lots of the girls there loved this 'ship a lot) and Hermione/Draco. The question the moderator put forth was what makes these ships so attractive in fanfic?
Different strokes for different folks? That's why they call if fan fic. I love a good Snape/Hermione, or Draco/Hermione, but I know darned well there's no actual chance of it happening in canon. It's just people having a good time playing "what if" and there's no harm in it. It's just hard to find a really GOOD one.
Lina - May 27, 2007 1:31 am (#2117 of 2486)
I find this thing with Hermione and house elves quite interesting. In fact, this is something that happens around us all the time, people who think that they they know what is better for someone else than that person could know for themselves, people who think they should change other people's customs, way of living and everything because they know better. I think it is something worth checking about ourselves indeed.
Pamzter - May 27, 2007 7:24 am (#2118 of 2486)
I'll have to disagree, Lina. Slavery is not a custom or way of living. It's black and white wrong. The problem is that Hermione takes it on completely by herself, thinking she can eradicate it quickly with an easy fix (ripple effect). She needs to step back, take a good long look, and figure out approaches to it from different angles, find some allies (elves and others) for all those different angles, then go after it with a plan, and anticipate it taking some time.
I find this to be very much like what Harry also needs (and continues to fail) to do.
wynnleaf - May 27, 2007 7:28 am (#2119 of 2486)
Edited May 27, 2007 7:58 am
I'd assume that the Hermione workshop at Phoenix Rising was full of very pro-Hermione supporters, because there didn't seem to be any objection to much at all other than the house elf thing and centaurs, yet I know people who were at Phoenix Rising who have some very strong opinions about other choices Hermione has made.
Anyway, here's some of my thoughts.
Do you identify more with Hermione or Luna? When I was a teen, I probably had more in common with Hermione, but I like Luna more.
Is Hermione the chosen one? Ha!
Will Hermione die? No.
Regarding Films: Almost all said they can't stand Emma Watson. She's okay - not my image of Hermione.
Did she snog Krum? Sure. Further? No.
What advantages does she have to being Muggleborn? I think the primary advantage is that she can look at Wizarding ideas and preconceptions more objectively. She's probably more likely to see the things wrong with the Wizarding World.
How many witch inventors were muggleborn? Is this due to ability to understand logic?
I don't get this question. What has Hermione invented? She doesn't strike me as truly creative -- she seems almost completely dependent on published or otherwise "teacher approved" information. She's more suspicious of creative thought if it doesn't conform to some pre-approved facts. She had no appreciation for Fred and George's inventiveness until she saw their store actually becoming successful, and she didn't even appear curious as to why the HBP potion improvements worked so much better than her textbook instructions.
About her parents... does she tell them everything or hide some things from them? Most agree she is hiding a lot of things.
Hermione has appeared to distance herself so much from her parents that it seems almost unbelievable for any normal kid, and has given rise to a lot of wild theories about Hermione, none of which I subscribe to, but I do think she is remarkably distanced from her parents even at the early age of 12.
Are her parents going to be targets in DH? No, they are nonentities.
Ron/Hermione What is the role of Ron and Hermione's relationship in book 7? Probably the ship will continue. JKR seems to like it. But I can't imagine these two personalities making it over the long term. Hermione is too condescending of Ron and, as far as I can tell, the only thing they really have in common is Harry.
Do you hate Ron? (About half the room didn't like Ron). I like Ron a lot. I can't tell that Hermione actually likes him. Yes, she wants him and gets pretty jealous, but she doesn't (in my opinion) seem to actually enjoy him.
Was Hermione too harsh with Marietta Edgcombe and "Sneak?" Everyone said no. This was what makes me think it was only very pro-Hermione people in that session. This is such a hotly debated subject and lots of strong HP fans have problems with Hermione's actions regarding Marietta. Personally, I strongly disapprove of Hermione's actions. I can't even give her the excuse of doing a spell that actually protected the DA, since she only used a hex that kicked in after the DA had been exposed.
Is Hermione more loyal or does she have a greater fear of failure? Almost all say her fear of failure supersedes her loyalty. That's fascinating. It seems like people think that it's more her loyalty to herself and her personal successes or being "right" that motivates her, rather than a commitment to a particular cause. Yes, I could believe that of her.
She thinks very quickly: Centaurs in OotP. She has a ruthless pragmatism. She's a good strategist but doesn't play her hand; she researches everything first.
Yes, she's ruthless. But her strategy is sometimes good, sometimes not. Her hex on the DA list didn't protect the DA, because it only started after the DA was betrayed, not before. Her actions with the centaurs almost got she and Harry in big trouble. Only Grawp's timely arrival saved them.
What were her biggest mistakes? Ron distracts her and fuzzes up her judgment. Hermione can't process her emotions--she can't study for them but it doesn't affect her ability to do magic. There are two big mistakes she made: one with the House Elves and one with the Centaurs (she said "I knew you would help us" and didn't think of the response). In both cases, her mistakes were made against non-humans.
I would include as "mistakes" Hermione's incredible hypocrisy in tampering with the Quidditch tryouts so that Ron would have an advantage and later berating Harry for (she assumed) giving Ron the luck potion to play well. Her idea to steal from Snape's potions stores, drug fellow students, and use polyjuice to steal other's identity in order to spy on other students was a huge mistake, especially since innocent students were injured and all was for naught since the Trio's assumption that Draco was guilty was completely erroneous. There's lots more mistakes, but that's a couple.
Hermione is the key to bringing in some outside creatures for the final war. This is a curious notion, especially since Hermione was so inept at dealing with house elves and centaurs.
There was also some discussion about Hermione/Snape (lots of the girls there loved this 'ship a lot) and Hermione/Draco. The question the moderator put forth was what makes these ships so attractive in fanfic?
Just looking at the personalities alone, I don't think Hermione would be interested in the Snape personality type. I think people assume that any two highly intelligent people would be drawn to each other and that's obviously not true. As regards the teacher/student thing -- well, Snape started teaching at about age 21, so the idea that he could have a relationship with a former student isn't far-fetched (aside from the personality problem ). And as wizards live far longer than muggles, 20 years wouldn't eventually seem like a big deal. I've seen speculation (which I don't buy) that there was a relationship between McGonagall and Dumbledore and they were 60-70 years apart. Even in real life, relationships between people 20 years apart are not unheard of and can be successful.
As regards Draco, I can see why people think that ship could be a possibility. Although Draco acts awfully to Hermione, it sometimes looks like "methinks the gentleman doth protest to much" (to mangle Shakespeare). It does sometimes seem like Draco pays far too much attention to Hermione if he really dislikes her so much. It would be easy to imagine that Draco is actually interested in her, but resists any attraction because his pureblood code is so deeply ingrained. If he got over the pureblood stuff and reformed? Yeah, I could see Hermione liking him. They're both sort of arrogant, they both are the types that always think they're "right" -- probably even after they change their mind. And Draco appears to be a pretty bright kid, even if he can get sort of whiny. If Draco grew up some and turned to the good side, I could see a Draco/Hermione ship -- which, I believe, is how the fan fics tend to write it.
Edited
Solitaire - May 27, 2007 10:21 am (#2120 of 2486)
Pamzter, I do not believe Lina was saying that slavery around us is a thing that must be accepted. I think she meant that Hermione's belief that she knows what is best for the House-Elves was a lot like people all around us who tend to think that they have all the answers to the problems of others. You must own that this is true.
When one goes about setting free any group of people who have been enslaved for as long as anyone can remember, it is wise to have a plan of action to help the freed people establish themselves as independent and assimilate into society. Simply setting people free without providing any assistance or coping tools to help them find a comfortable and safe place in society is not benevolent; it is cruel. Certainly there will be those who can instantly find a niche and thrive. Others may fall victim to further abuse from a society that didn't want them to be freed in the first place (think Malfoys).
In the case of the House-Elves, many Wizarding families may choose not to have an Elf if they have to pay him and treat him decently and with respect. Dobby could probably be a tremendous help to Hermione in her efforts, if she chooses to consult him. He would know the points where the House-Elves need persuading, education, training, employment help, etc. He probably also knows where she is going to find active and extreme resistance among the Wizards and might be able to help her anticipate and deflect it.
If Hermione's bottom line with SPEW is true House-Elf emancipation, she needs to approach it with logic, common sense, and a great deal of compassion for and understanding of those she is trying to set free. JM2K, of course ...
Solitaire
I think we are done with anyone learning Occlumency. The only person that matters is Harry and JKR said he wouldn't be good at it.
I would agree with you Haymoni, were it not for Snape's shouted comment to Harry at the end of HBP where he says that Harry needs to learn to keep his "mouth shut and his mind closed" (I think that was the phrase).
It's not because Snape said it that I think it's important. But in that context, I think it must be important or JKR wouldn't have included it. Harry's in the midst of a dueling situation which he can't win because he's basically "telegraphing" his intentions and his opponent can react to what he's going to do before he's even done it.
Since JKR was pointing that out through Snape's remark, it seems to me that this will be something that Harry will have to correct in book 7. Maybe he can't do occlumency, but on some level he'll have to learn not to telegraph his intentions or LV will know exactly what he's going to do when they next meet face to face.
However, I don't really think this is going to be something Hermione helps him with, or we'd have seen Hermione learning more about it already. Or then again, maybe she could learn more about it in book 7.
haymoni - Oct 13, 2006 8:24 am (#2082 of 2486)
We may see Harry trying to close his mind and I definitely think he needs to work on the non-verbal stuff, but Jo says he really can't shut things down, so he might not be too successful.
I wonder how Hermione will handle travelling around with Harry if she can't access the Hogwarts Library every time she has a question?
valuereflection - Oct 13, 2006 8:50 am (#2083 of 2486)
It would be fun to read about Hermione discovering a library for the wizarding world outside of Hogwarts. Or maybe she could create one. (I can dream, can't I?)
Chemyst - Oct 13, 2006 9:29 am (#2084 of 2486)
... but Jo says he (Harry) really can't shut things down, so he might not be too successful. -haymoni
Maybe this should go on a predictions thread, but... Draco is good at this. Draco is also with Snape. Occlumency could play into a climatic moment where these characters have to set aside their personal hatred for each other to defeat Voldemort. I like your idea of one letting another "in." In which case Hermione, (this being her thread and all,) is relegated to urging Harry to not be controlled by hate. And though it's likely Harry shall face LV alone, collective support will still be important.
S.E. Jones - Oct 13, 2006 2:20 pm (#2085 of 2486)
wynnleaf --I would agree with you Haymoni, were it not for Snape's shouted comment to Harry at the end of HBP where he says that Harry needs to learn to keep his "mouth shut and his mind closed" (I think that was the phrase).
It's not because Snape said it that I think it's important. But in that context, I think it must be important or JKR wouldn't have included it. Harry's in the midst of a dueling situation which he can't win because he's basically "telegraphing" his intentions and his opponent can react to what he's going to do before he's even done it.
Snape is a fair legilimens as well as being an excellent occlumens, so, yes, Harry learning Occlumency would be good in fighting someone like Voldemort or Snape, but again, this would only really be helpful to Harry as he's the one who's really going to be going toe to toe and face to face with Voldemort, so I don't think it will really do any good for Hermione to learn the subject. Oddly enough, though, it's Harry mind being open and his emotions being so raw that prevents Voldemort from using Legilimency on him, so I don't think he really has any need to learn to shut his emotions down, even if he does need to learn a bit more tact (as well as how to do a spell nonverbally). I definitely agree that we've seen the last of Occlumency, but I don't think we've seen the last of Legilimency (as getting in Voldemort's head, or allowing Voldemort into his head, is one of the easiest/surest ways for Harry to hurt Voldemort). Still, maybe this discussion should be moved to another thread.
I agree, though, that Hermione's helping will come in areas other than Occlumency/Legilimency.
xray - Mar 9, 2007 4:29 pm (#2086 of 2486)
In case anyone's interested, I have a little essay up over at TLC (The Leaky Cauldron) on Hermione's Career after Hogwarts.
In short, I think Hermione's going to end up working in Fred and George's joke shop for a while, perhaps as a partner. The essay explains all my reasoning. It's a fun little theory and it's all based on canon.
Enjoy!
Jadelollipop - Mar 10, 2007 12:02 pm (#2087 of 2486)
A very interesting theory Xray...quite convincing too...
Laura W - Mar 10, 2007 12:48 pm (#2088 of 2486)
I seriously doubt if this is what is going to transpire, but I must commend you on a well-laid-out argument, xray.
Laura
xray - Mar 10, 2007 4:05 pm (#2089 of 2486)
Thank you both!
journeymom - Mar 11, 2007 8:19 pm (#2090 of 2486)
Great essay!
I still think she'll be a barrister.
Gatorgrad1991 - Mar 12, 2007 8:03 am (#2091 of 2486)
Journeymom: I still think she'll be a barrister.
Me too; I always picture Hermione doing something related to the law when she leaves Hogwarts.
I think the fact that Hermione mastered non-verbal spells faster than either Harry or Ron will be a major contribution in Book 7. I can't see her coming out all of a sudden as a great Legilmens or Occlumens, since there have been no indications of this in canon up to this point.
Bible Spice - Apr 1, 2007 12:19 pm (#2092 of 2486)
Chemyst: Hermione is relegated to urging Harry to not be controlled by hate.
Hmmm. Shades of _A Wrinkle in Time_. I'm not sure if you envision Hermione on the side lines of a final battle as the sort of agape-cheerleader in Lengel's book, but I would find it very disappointing here.
Journeymom: I still think she'll be a barrister.
My hope is that she will move forward with the Elvish Welfare movement (thought perhaps not S.P.E.W. in particular). I confess that I find it very distasteful how the books do *not* seem to have a problem with the *system* of elvish enslavement, only with "bad masters".
Solitaire - May 6, 2007 8:59 pm (#2093 of 2486)
Over on the Founders of Hogwarts thread, I posted the following: I suppose one could say that wanting only the most intellectually gifted students is rather elitist ... but it hardly compares to Slytherin's prejudiced attitudes.
This started me thinking about Hermione ...
She told Harry once that the Sorting Hat had considered placing her in Ravenclaw. I wonder ... did she attempt to influence the Hat, as Harry did? If so, did it decide in favor of or against her inclination? She doesn't really say. She did say she was pleased to be in Gryffindor because Dumbledore had been in Gryffindor ... but was that her first choice?
I have often wondered what might have happened in Harry's stay at Hogwarts if Hermione had landed in Ravenclaw instead of Gryffindor. She has played a pivotal role in nearly every crisis in which Harry has been involved.
- She figured out the logic puzzle in PS/SS.
- She gave Harry the information about the Basilisk and the pipes (via the crumpled paper in her petrified hand).
- She used the time-turner to save Buckbeak, Sirius, and Harry.
- She helped Harry with the Summoning Charm and 4-Points Spell.
- She helped them lose Umbridge (although this was not a great use of her intellect, given the reaction of the Centaurs)
In HBP Hermione was not with Harry in his Big Adventure. Would things have turned out differently had she been there? How far will she go with Harry in Book 7? Will she be there for the Final Adventure?
Solitaire
journeymom - May 6, 2007 10:25 pm (#2094 of 2486)
Great observations, Solitaire. You're right, she wasn't there at the cave with Harry, though neither was Ron. I hadn't thought of it that way. I can't imagine how things would have turned out had she been there, there's no way it could have happened that way. But many of us have agreed that while Hermione (and Ron) will help Harry nearly every step of the way, Harry will take the last step by himself. She'll be there for him when it's over and help him figure out what just happened and help him come to terms with it.
Solitaire - May 7, 2007 6:56 am (#2095 of 2486)
Thanks, Journeymom. When I look back, I guess one of my questions is whether the Hat put Hermione in Gryffindor because it knew Harry would need her. Just exactly how much power does the Hat wield?
Solitaire
Mrs Brisbee - May 7, 2007 7:05 am (#2096 of 2486)
I don't think the hat put Hermione in Gryffindor because of Harry. She and Hearry weren't friends at that point. She was friends with Neville, but she was sorted before either of them.
I think she was put into Gryffindor on her own merits. Didn't she say something about Gryffindor House sounding the best, with Ravenclaw being second? Hermione values bravery above brains, I think, and that's why she would be there, despite her Ravenclaw quality smarts.
Die Zimtzicke - May 7, 2007 9:21 am (#2097 of 2486)
I have a real problem with the hat putting kids who know next-to-nothing about the wizarding world where they think they want to go. How does it know they really understand what they want at age eleven? It should put them where it thinks they are best, based on the traits in them it detects, period.
With Harry, you can at least say it was seeing Voldemort inside him, but you can't say that with Hermione. I don't know why it chose Gryffindor, except to advance the plot. I guess Jo felt she had to explain why Hermione was so smart, but not in Ravenclaw, so she made it a decision that could have gone either way.
Mrs Brisbee - May 7, 2007 9:42 am (#2098 of 2486)
Hermione is brave. She's not afraid to speak up. She will do things that are risky if she thinks them worthwhile-- she's just not as brazen or foolhardy as some of the other Gryffindors. She organized the unpopular SPEW, so she isn't afraid to fight for what she thinks is right even if it is an unpopular cause. She organized the DA, which could have gotten them all thrown out of school. That convoluted Polyjuice plot in CoS was her idea. As a Prefect, she stood up to Fred and George while Ron waffled. She goes with Harry on his dangerous missions, starting in their first year. And she herself called Harry a great wizard in PS/SS-- not because he possessed super powerful magic, but because he was fighting for what was right, which proves right there her feelings about being brave enough to do the right thing. I can think of lots of other times Hermione showed bravery.
If the Sorting Hat saw both bravery and brains in her, but also saw that bravery was the trait she admired more and would like to cultivate, then why not put her in Gryffindor? I don't think she was misplaced, although she would have undoubtedly done well in Ravenclaw. Sometimes the Sorting Hat took awhile to place a new student, so I think it safe to say many of them had strong qualities that suggested several Houses might be a good fit.
journeymom - May 7, 2007 10:15 am (#2099 of 2486)
"I have a real problem with the hat putting kids who know next-to-nothing about the wizarding world where they think they want to go. How does it know they really understand what they want at age eleven? It should put them where it thinks they are best, based on the traits in them it detects, period. "
My impression is that they don't need to know anything about the wizarding world as that's not the criteria the Hat uses to place them. I think the Hat does put them where it thinks they are best suited, based upon the personality traits it detects in them, period. The Hat's first speech describes what the Founders were looking for, and aside from Slytherin's pureblooded prejudice, none of the criteria had anything to do with magic but were universal human traits. Besides, Slytherin's prejudice is the fault in the House system that needs to be fixed. It's an important plot point.
The Hat doesn't know if they understand what they want, and that's not one of its criteria for sorting. Others here have observed, and I agree, that the Hat seems to use a fantasy, fairy-tale like Myers-Briggs personality quiz to sort the students. It doesn't ask the students bunch of questions, but it senses what's in them. Many people take the Myers-Briggs test when they're teenagers, and then again when their adults, and the results are the same, even if what they want changes several times, throughout the rest of their lives.
"With Harry, you can at least say it was seeing Voldemort inside him, but you can't say that with Hermione. I don't know why it chose Gryffindor, except to advance the plot.
Well, this is fiction. Everything, absolutely every act, is there to advance the plot. Perhaps the problem you have is that some of JKR's points are worked into the plot with more finesse, more realistically, than other plot points. Specifically, Hermione's sorting seems unrealistic or awkward, to you. If so, your problem is with the author, not the Hat.
I guess Jo felt she had to explain why Hermione was so smart, but not in Ravenclaw, so she made it a decision that could have gone either way. "
Yes, that's it, exactly.
journeymom - May 7, 2007 12:20 pm (#2100 of 2486)
Too late to edit, above.
Regarding the curtains on Mary Grand Pre's cover of PS and DH, somebody (multiple somebodies, probably) suggested this is evocative of a play, beginning and end. This makes sense to me.
Die Zim, you believe the sorting process is too arbitrary and plot driven. This got me thinking, because the more symbolism, simile, analogy, mythology and external structure I find in the HP stories, the more it seems as though all the characters are merely players playing a part. Some characters more multidimensional than others.
Maybe I haven't analyzed any story as much as I have the HP story. It could be that all stories are like this, I don't know. But it does seem as though JKR has a overriding goal she's working her way toward, and she's got her characters on a strict path, and therefore they go where she wants them to go, do what she wants them to do. Meanwhile she doesn't necessarily fill out their characters fully. In her dream she mentioned, "...trying to make the people around me say lines I had pre-arranged for them."
"All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players.
They have their exits and their entrances,
And one man in his time plays many parts,
His acts being seven ages." -Shakespeare, As You Like It
wynnleaf - May 9, 2007 2:44 pm (#2101 of 2486)
Well, this is fiction. Everything, absolutely every act, is there to advance the plot. Perhaps the problem you have is that some of JKR's points are worked into the plot with more finesse, more realistically, than other plot points. Specifically, Hermione's sorting seems unrealistic or awkward, to you. If so, your problem is with the author, not the Hat. (journeymom)
Excellent comments that could apply to any number of things we feel are inconsistent, unrealistic, or awkward in HP.
But it does seem as though JKR has a overriding goal she's working her way toward, and she's got her characters on a strict path, and therefore they go where she wants them to go, do what she wants them to do. (journeymom)
Another great observation. I get the feeling that, whether Hermione or any other characters, JKR doesn't often have the experience many writers describe of the characters going off in their own directions, or doing things the author never expected.
Die Zimtzicke - May 9, 2007 4:04 pm (#2102 of 2486)
Jo is different from some writers who do create great characters and let the plot derive somwhat from who the characters become. Jo seems to be more the type who has a plot and the characters are only there to fit in it. She HAS occasionally made changes to her original plot; I know that, so don't get me wrong, but I think a lot of the complaints people have with her characters seeming out of character is that they do whatever is necessary to move the plot, in spite of how they have behaved previously in different situations.
Gatorgrad1991 - May 22, 2007 6:58 am (#2103 of 2486)
Hermione has always seemed to me to be a perfect fit for Gryffindor, mainly because she has tremendous moral and emotional courage. She is far from being a physical coward, but that is not where her real strength lies. I think the Sorting Hat chose extremely well in Hermione's case; although she may be suited to Ravenclaw she has shown herself to be a true Gryffindor.
Solitaire - May 23, 2007 2:19 am (#2104 of 2486)
I do think Hermione has developed courage, but in the very beginning, she was just a bossy, know-it-all buttinski. She tagged along on the midnight duel not because she was interested but because she was ragging on Harry and Ron for going in the first place. I don't think she really got into the game until the Troll business. After that, well ...From that moment on, Hermione Granger became their friend. There are some things you can't share without ending up liking each other, and kknocking out a twelve-foot troll is one of them. JM2K, of course ...
Solitaire
journeymom - May 23, 2007 2:09 pm (#2105 of 2486)
Eww, troll bogeys!
frogface - May 24, 2007 11:53 am (#2106 of 2486)
I do think Hermione has developed courage, but in the very beginning, she was just a bossy, know-it-all buttinski. I disagree with this. I don't think she was just a bossy-know-it-all when she first joined Hogwarts. I think she was just a lonely girl who'd never had many friends, and didn't really know how to interact with other children. She is an only child after all. I think Hermione always had tremendous bravery in her though, after all the Sorting Hat spotting this in her long before the Troll incident, didn't it? Its just that it took Harry and Ron, who are more laid back, to bring that daring and courage out of her. I think Hermione must be tremondously brave, because even though she's very clever and very hard working, her bravery was what the Hat seemed to take note of.
Chemyst - May 24, 2007 12:35 pm (#2107 of 2486)
… and didn't really know how to interact with other children. She is an only child after all.
Yes, she is an only child now. We know JKR said she originally was going to give Hermione a younger sister but did not have room to fit it in. So I am going to make a leap and say that with or without a younger sister, Hermione's personality would still been written to make her socially inept upon her arrival at Hogwarts.
Even though she did not know she was a witch and certainly had not been trained, I'd imagine some of her latent powers would have affected her social life. She probably attended a muggle school for several years before coming to Hogwarts. Being an undiagnosed witch is probably more likely to cause social problems than being an only child would.
journeymom - May 24, 2007 12:37 pm (#2108 of 2486)
James, Sirius and Draco are all onlies, and non of them had/have problems fitting in. You might not like Draco, or the other two for that matter, but none of them were social outcasts.
Solitaire - May 25, 2007 7:12 am (#2109 of 2486)
You are correct, Frogface. She is and was all the things you say. Alas, she was still a bossy, know-it-all buttinski. I think her behavior in PS/SS--in the chapter entitled The Midnight Duel-- is a perfect example of this. I'm not saying her presence wasn't needed (It was!) and I'm not saying she wasn't right (She was).
I think Hermione felt rather insecure when she first entered Hogwarts. Her behavior seemed rather typical of a lot of the bright, insecure children I teach at school. Some just pull into themselves and are afraid to exhibit any of their knowledge for fear of teasing by their less gifted but perhaps more socially adept peers. Others appear to try and compensate for what they may feel--and this is based only on information from some of my kids and their parents--are inadequacies by freely exhibiting the things they DO know. Unfortunately, this often has the opposite effect and the kids are perceived by peers as know-it-alls. This is how I see what happened with Hermione up to the Troll incident. JM2K, but I think it is right, based on similar experiences with my own students of this age. Actually, when Hermione steps up and takes the blame in the Troll incident, something important happens: She makes others (Ron and Harry) come off looking good at her own expense, showing herself capable of making a sacrifice for others. She also shows herself worthy of their friendship ... and they respond by giving it.
I could say more, but if I did, I'd be late for school!
Solitaire
Lina - May 26, 2007 2:26 am (#2110 of 2486)
Journeymom, Sirius wasn't an only child.
I agree, Soli, that Hermione was know-it-all mostly because she felt insecure. I also agree with Chemyst that she must have been compensating her differences from other children by knowledge. I just find it interesting. Both, Harry and Hermione, were afraid of how will they fit among witches and wizards that they knew nothing about their way of life. Yet, they didn't react in the same way to that fear. I guess Hermione just needs a lot of knowledge to feel confident.
xray - May 26, 2007 8:46 am (#2111 of 2486)
Hi Everyone!
I went to Phoenix Rising conference in New Orleans this past week and one of the sessions I attended was a roundtable discussion on Hermione. It was titled Hermione's Helping Hand: How the "Brains" of the Trio has Aided in Harry's Heroic Journey.
Here are some of the things that were discussed:
Do you identify more with Hermione or Luna?
Is Hermione the chosen one? (everyone said no).
Will Hermione die? (Most said no, some said possibly).
Regarding Films: Almost all said they can't stand Emma Watson. Magical Pink, non bushy hair, more and more blonde every movie, low rider jeans, etc, is not Hermione. Most are angry she got all Ron's great lines.
Did she snog Krum? Most said yes.
Did she go further? 2 or 3 said yes, everyone else said no.
What advantages does she have to being Muggleborn?
She has an outsider perspective of the wizarding world. If she was born in a wizarding family she might not be as good a student because she may not try as hard as she does.
How many witch inventors were muggleborn? Is this due to ability to understand logic?
Hermione doesn't take things for granted either. She's very bright.
About her parents... does she tell them everything or hide some things from them? Most agree she is hiding a lot of things.
Are her parents going to be targets in DH?
Ron/Hermione
What is the role of Ron and Hermione's relationship in book 7?
Do you hate Ron? (About half the room didn't like Ron).
Would Hermione love Ron and want to be with him if he got his act together? What about if Ron didn't need her as much as he does. Is Hermione needy of this? i.e. does she need someone else to need her the way Ron does? She needs to be needed.
A couple people agreed that Ron/Hermione will happen in DH but it won't last because Hermione will get frustrated with Ron.
A rebuttal was that Ron will mature and rise to the occasion in book 7.
Moderator thinks "the trio needs to be a couple." They can't function without each other.
Was Hermione too harsh with Marietta Edgcombe and "Sneak?" Everyone said no.
Is Hermione more loyal or does she have a greater fear of failure? Almost all say her fear of failure supersedes her loyalty.
Is Hermione competing against others or against herself? Most say herself.
What about Hermione and the sorting hat? She was on the border between Gryffindor and Ravenclaw, but the hat put her in Gryffindor. We don't know if she chose Gryffindor like Harry did (not slytherin), but we do know that Hermione thought Gryffindor was the best (she said so on the train). We think this was what pushed her into Gryffindor because she thought it was the best of all the houses.
Hermione sees potential problems. She made a huge leap about the basilisk in the pipes.
She thinks very quickly: Centaurs in OotP. She has a ruthless pragmatism. She's a good strategist but doesn't play her hand; she researches everything first.
What were her biggest mistakes? Ron distracts her and fuzzes up her judgment. Hermione can't process her emotions--she can't study for them but it doesn't affect her ability to do magic.
There are two big mistakes she made: one with the House Elves and one with the Centaurs (she said "I knew you would help us" and didn't think of the response). In both cases, her mistakes were made against non-humans.
She has strengths and weaknesses because she's an outsider.
Hermione is the key to bringing in some outside creatures for the final war.
There was also some discussion about Hermione/Snape (lots of the girls there loved this 'ship a lot) and Hermione/Draco. The question the moderator put forth was what makes these ships so attractive in fanfic?
Solitaire - May 26, 2007 9:31 am (#2112 of 2486)
Hermione/Snape and Hermione/Draco? ROTFLOL Since this is not a 'ship thread, I'll leave it at that. I certainly agree that Hermione has gotten Harry off the dime more than once when he has been stalled.
About her relationship with Ron ... I wonder sometimes if she is not as much in love with his family as she is with him. To be sure, she has parents who are alive and love her. Their presence in Diagon Alley also suggests to me that they are accepting of her magical abilities--even if they do not understand them--and that they are also not averse to meeting the people who have become important in her life. However, they do seem unusually willing to allow her to spend nearly all of her free time with the Weasleys from a very early age. Then again, we do not know what has happened with them "off camera." Perhaps they have talked to Dumbledore or McGonagall about Hermione's "cross-over" between the Muggle and magical worlds and have come to understand that the magical world will naturally pull her away at an earlier than usual age. They may feel that she is better off spending her vacation time with the Weasleys in a family atmosphere-where she will receive more supervision and certainly more caring and warmth--than she would be with a girlfriend (if she has one) whose parents might give them too much freedom. Just my thoughts ...
It's interesting to consider her actions with regard to the House-elves and Centaurs. She is so outspoken about how they have been badly treated and rejected by many in the magical world ... yet she attempts to use the Centaurs and she continually offends the House-Elves. I wonder if she has ever stopped to examine her own behavior and attitudes there. She has taken up the "cause" of the House-Elves, even though there does not seem to be a cause just yet. Hermione is still young, however, and she must learn to think farther than her immediate actions to what their effects on her and others might be. I think this is coming, and when she combines her intellect, her magical abilities, and a more mature knowledge of human nature, I believe she will prove to be a very powerful witch.
Solitaire
journeymom - May 26, 2007 10:47 am (#2113 of 2486)
Edited May 26, 2007 11:48 am
Journeymom, Sirius wasn't an only child. D'oh! [Slaps forehead] I do know that.
Do you identify more with Hermione or Luna? A combination of both.
Will Hermione die? (Most said no, some said possibly). I certainly hope not. I vote 'no'.
Regarding Films: Almost all said they can't stand Emma Watson. Magical Pink, non bushy hair, more and more blonde every movie, low rider jeans, etc, is not Hermione. Most are angry she got all Ron's great lines. I love Emma Watson, though I got tired of the eyebrow waving in GoF. I can only hope that was the fault of the director. I don't have a problem with her dressing like a modern day kid when she's not in her school robes. And yes, it's a real shame that she got so many of Ron's great lines.
Did she snog Krum? Isn't this canon? She told Ron she did, didn't she? If so, I think it's hysterical that she got her first kiss before Ron or Harry or Ron did.
Did she go further? Oh, for pity's sake. Of course she didn't. Unless we're counting groping. That's realistic. Kind of fits in the category of 'snogging'. I love that word. Much better than 'making out'.
What advantages does she have to being Muggleborn? Logic. She was the one who solved Snape's (the half-blood) potions riddle. Not that Harry's not logical, but her mind is more disciplined than his is. Somewhere, probably in PS/SS JKR says muggles are more logical than wizards and witches, I believe.
How many witch inventors were muggleborn? Is this due to ability to understand logic? Good question. See answer to above. There's no way to know how many inventors are muggleborn, but that's an interesting thought.
About her parents... does she tell them everything or hide some things from them? Most agree she is hiding a lot of things. Hermione hiding the fact that there is a war going on in the wizarding world is a common point in the fan fic world. It has the ring of truth but I don't think she's hiding anything. She has a hard enough time defying the teachers that she respects. She wouldn't lie to her parents.
Are her parents going to be targets in DH? It's reasonable to think so, but I vote no.
What is the role of Ron and Hermione's relationship in book 7? What will it look like? It will strengthen. What roll? I dunno, serve as a reminder that love and affection is a wonderful thing?
Do you hate Ron? (About half the room didn't like Ron). Heavens, no. I love Ron. Ron's the bomb. I suspect the people who actually hate him (hate is such a strong word), are trying to set Hermione up with somebody else. They conveniently kill Ron off in the final battle so somebody else can swoop in and comfort her. :eyesroll:
Would Hermione love Ron and want to be with him if he got his act together? What about if Ron didn't need her as much as he does. Is Hermione needy of this? i.e. does she need someone else to need her the way Ron does? She needs to be needed. 'Would' she? She already does love Ron and wants to be with him. His act is together, as much as any other teen boy or girl his age. Hermione 'needs' Ron as much as he needs her. And everybody likes to be needed. Ron isn't an incompetent, Hermione is not this super hero.
A couple people agreed that Ron/Hermione will happen in DH but it won't last because Hermione will get frustrated with Ron. They're fooling themselves.
Moderator thinks "the trio needs to be a couple." They can't function without each other. Wow, that's really dysfunctional. None of them strike me as that weak. Yes, Harry will need his two best friends (and Ginny), in some capacity, to help him along the way to achieving his ultimate goal.
Was Hermione too harsh with Marietta Edgcombe and "Sneak?"No, I think the Sneak spell foreshadowed and parallels the Unbreakable Vow. And shows how talented and smart Hermione is. And loyal to Harry and the just cause.
Is Hermione more loyal or does she have a greater fear of failure? Almost all say her fear of failure supersedes her loyalty. Huh? I'm not sure how the one effects the other. And I don't she particularly fear failure anymore, no more than Harry or Ron, certainly. I think the fact that she took on that huge course load in GoF proves she doesn't fear failure. She obviously bit off more than she could chew. Her worst fear is academic failure, but that doesn't mean she's particularly fearful.
Is Hermione competing against others or against herself? Most say herself. Agreed.
What about Hermione and the sorting hat? She was on the border between Gryffindor and Ravenclaw, but the hat put her in Gryffindor. We don't know if she chose Gryffindor like Harry did (not slytherin), but we do know that Hermione thought Gryffindor was the best (she said so on the train). We think this was what pushed her into Gryffindor because she thought it was the best of all the houses. Harry didn't choose Gryffindor, did he? He simply begged the Hat not to put him Slytherin. The Hat chose Gryffindor for Harry.
There was also some discussion about Hermione/Snape (lots of the girls there loved this 'ship a lot) and Hermione/Draco. The question the moderator put forth was what makes these ships so attractive in fanfic?
Granger/Snape, the love that dares not speak its name. I used to be a rabid HG/SS shipper, but I had to really suspend reality and my sense of ickiness. There are lots of classic May/December stories out there (Eliza Doolittle and Professor Higgins) but really, this is more like March/August! Doesn't matter how old Hermione is when they force them together. And I really think JKRowling was probably horrified and disgusted by the whole phenomenon when she discovered it.
But I will say that I see some similarities between Severus Snape and Hermione Granger, and perhaps others do and take that next, fan girly, romantic step of putting them together. Draco, Snape, it's the whole bad boy thing. Draco might turn out not to be a 'bad' guy, but I suspect he will still think muggleborns are inferior.
Solitaire - May 26, 2007 2:44 pm (#2114 of 2486)
Draco might turn out not to be a 'bad' guy
As far as I am concerned, Draco has already turned out to be a bad guy, based on his past comments and behavior. It's possible that he might relent or reform, but I do not expect it unless he has a major falling-out with his family. His prejudices seem deeply ingrained, and I believe it would require something that shook his faith in his family to the core, before he would admit he was full of ... stinksap! But this is Hermione's thread.
I just can't even entertain a Snape/Hermione thing. Even setting aside the teacher-student ethic and accepting the "maybe Snape really is a good guy in disguise" argument, Snape is still not a pleasant human being. Do you think he will ever forgive Hermione for helping to zap him back in the Shrieking Shack? I don't. I think Snape holds big, nasty grudges.
Solitaire
Chemyst - May 26, 2007 4:37 pm (#2115 of 2486)
xray reporting on Phoenix Rising conference: Was Hermione too harsh with Marietta Edgcombe and "Sneak?" Everyone said no.
No kidding? A consensus? I'm thunderstruck!
Die Zimtzicke - May 26, 2007 7:58 pm (#2116 of 2486)
Yes, a consensus, but you have to remember...I wasn't there. LOL!
Do you identify more with Hermione or Luna?
Oh, Luna without a doubt. But I have to admit, the movie contamination is getting to me slightly. Emma is less and less like Hermione in every film, while Evanna seems to be a perfect Luna. But I would still like Luna better, even if I hadn't of seen the films.
Will Hermione die?
I would have voted 'no', but I wouldn't throw the book out the window because of it if it happened.
Regarding Films:
See above...
Did she snog Krum?
Yes, and probably a BIT more than that. He was older, and she was flattered.
Did she go further?
See above. But I don't mean anything that requires a trapeze or a bottle of chocolate syrup.
What advantages does she have to being Muggleborn?
It has advantages and disadvantages. I think she's trying so hard to fit into this new world she's found, that she is drawing away from her parents deliberately, and to me that's a mistake. But it's an advantage in that I think more contact with muggles, or at least the muggle relatives of muggleborns, is necessary.
How many witch inventors were muggleborn?
No idea. I don't think it matters.
About her parents... does she tell them everything or hide some things from them?
I would also agree she is hiding a lot of things. I hope it doesn't come back to bite her. I disagree that she has a hard enough time defying the teachers that she respects and that she wouldn't lie to her parents. She's getting MUCH better at lying.
Are her parents going to be targets in DH?
I think it's possible, but I would have voted no simply because they are practically non-existant in the books, and something happening to them wouldn't make too many people reading them all that fussed. It would be like killing Charlie Weasley to me. I'd feel a moment's pang, but I'm just not really that invested in his character.
What is the role of Ron and Hermione's relationship in book 7? What will it look like?
It will happen, and it won't bother me, but it won't be done well enough to suit me totally. I think Jo's main weakness is in her romance writing.
Do you hate Ron?
Oh, no. I like Ron. Ron's my favorite Weasley. But I do NOT think people who said they hated him were just disgruntled ex-shippers. That's a horrible generalization to my mind. He's just a much more simplistic character than some of the others, and some people just like complex characters. Not everything has to revolve around ships. I can tolerate almost ANY het ship myself.
Would Hermione love Ron and want to be with him if he got his act together?
One of the most irritating things Jo ever said as I see it was her comment about Ron becoming worthy of Hermione. That made me sick. They both have to mature a A LOT before they can make ago of it, not just him.
A couple people agreed that Ron/Hermione will happen in DH but it won't last because Hermione will get frustrated with Ron.
We won't see it that far into the future, I think. So that will be the realm of fan fic. I'm one of the few that disagrees an epliogue means we'll see them all talking to their grandchildren and find out everything that happened in the meantime. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, and I'll admit it, but I don't think it should or will go that far.
Moderator thinks "the trio needs to be a couple." They can't function without each other.
The trio supercedes everything else. Anyone else that can help Harry is useful and can be a good thing, but to me the trio will always be stronger than anything else. UNLESS we have a complete sextet, the trio will be the main focus for me and I hope it will end as it began.
Was Hermione too harsh with Marietta Edgcombe and "Sneak?"...
Heck, yes. No one should be able to be held to contract when they didn't know the details of what they were signing. It makes me very upset, too, that it seems to be permanent. I don't think anyone should have to pay forever for something they did when they were 16.
Is Hermione more loyal or does she have a greater fear of failure?
I agree that her fear of failure supersedes her loyalty. It does not make her disloyal, exactly, but it sometimes makes her careless, which can be dangerous.
Is Hermione competing against others or against herself?
She's competing against herself AND the entire world. Look at how she felt about Pansy making prefect, or Harry beating her in DADA and in potions. And she just hated being wrong about Ron's performance at Quidditch.
What about Hermione and the sorting hat?
She rightfully should have been in Ravenclaw, but then we'd have no story. It's just a plot point.
There was also some discussion about Hermione/Snape (lots of the girls there loved this 'ship a lot) and Hermione/Draco. The question the moderator put forth was what makes these ships so attractive in fanfic?
Different strokes for different folks? That's why they call if fan fic. I love a good Snape/Hermione, or Draco/Hermione, but I know darned well there's no actual chance of it happening in canon. It's just people having a good time playing "what if" and there's no harm in it. It's just hard to find a really GOOD one.
Lina - May 27, 2007 1:31 am (#2117 of 2486)
I find this thing with Hermione and house elves quite interesting. In fact, this is something that happens around us all the time, people who think that they they know what is better for someone else than that person could know for themselves, people who think they should change other people's customs, way of living and everything because they know better. I think it is something worth checking about ourselves indeed.
Pamzter - May 27, 2007 7:24 am (#2118 of 2486)
I'll have to disagree, Lina. Slavery is not a custom or way of living. It's black and white wrong. The problem is that Hermione takes it on completely by herself, thinking she can eradicate it quickly with an easy fix (ripple effect). She needs to step back, take a good long look, and figure out approaches to it from different angles, find some allies (elves and others) for all those different angles, then go after it with a plan, and anticipate it taking some time.
I find this to be very much like what Harry also needs (and continues to fail) to do.
wynnleaf - May 27, 2007 7:28 am (#2119 of 2486)
Edited May 27, 2007 7:58 am
I'd assume that the Hermione workshop at Phoenix Rising was full of very pro-Hermione supporters, because there didn't seem to be any objection to much at all other than the house elf thing and centaurs, yet I know people who were at Phoenix Rising who have some very strong opinions about other choices Hermione has made.
Anyway, here's some of my thoughts.
Do you identify more with Hermione or Luna? When I was a teen, I probably had more in common with Hermione, but I like Luna more.
Is Hermione the chosen one? Ha!
Will Hermione die? No.
Regarding Films: Almost all said they can't stand Emma Watson. She's okay - not my image of Hermione.
Did she snog Krum? Sure. Further? No.
What advantages does she have to being Muggleborn? I think the primary advantage is that she can look at Wizarding ideas and preconceptions more objectively. She's probably more likely to see the things wrong with the Wizarding World.
How many witch inventors were muggleborn? Is this due to ability to understand logic?
I don't get this question. What has Hermione invented? She doesn't strike me as truly creative -- she seems almost completely dependent on published or otherwise "teacher approved" information. She's more suspicious of creative thought if it doesn't conform to some pre-approved facts. She had no appreciation for Fred and George's inventiveness until she saw their store actually becoming successful, and she didn't even appear curious as to why the HBP potion improvements worked so much better than her textbook instructions.
About her parents... does she tell them everything or hide some things from them? Most agree she is hiding a lot of things.
Hermione has appeared to distance herself so much from her parents that it seems almost unbelievable for any normal kid, and has given rise to a lot of wild theories about Hermione, none of which I subscribe to, but I do think she is remarkably distanced from her parents even at the early age of 12.
Are her parents going to be targets in DH? No, they are nonentities.
Ron/Hermione What is the role of Ron and Hermione's relationship in book 7? Probably the ship will continue. JKR seems to like it. But I can't imagine these two personalities making it over the long term. Hermione is too condescending of Ron and, as far as I can tell, the only thing they really have in common is Harry.
Do you hate Ron? (About half the room didn't like Ron). I like Ron a lot. I can't tell that Hermione actually likes him. Yes, she wants him and gets pretty jealous, but she doesn't (in my opinion) seem to actually enjoy him.
Was Hermione too harsh with Marietta Edgcombe and "Sneak?" Everyone said no. This was what makes me think it was only very pro-Hermione people in that session. This is such a hotly debated subject and lots of strong HP fans have problems with Hermione's actions regarding Marietta. Personally, I strongly disapprove of Hermione's actions. I can't even give her the excuse of doing a spell that actually protected the DA, since she only used a hex that kicked in after the DA had been exposed.
Is Hermione more loyal or does she have a greater fear of failure? Almost all say her fear of failure supersedes her loyalty. That's fascinating. It seems like people think that it's more her loyalty to herself and her personal successes or being "right" that motivates her, rather than a commitment to a particular cause. Yes, I could believe that of her.
She thinks very quickly: Centaurs in OotP. She has a ruthless pragmatism. She's a good strategist but doesn't play her hand; she researches everything first.
Yes, she's ruthless. But her strategy is sometimes good, sometimes not. Her hex on the DA list didn't protect the DA, because it only started after the DA was betrayed, not before. Her actions with the centaurs almost got she and Harry in big trouble. Only Grawp's timely arrival saved them.
What were her biggest mistakes? Ron distracts her and fuzzes up her judgment. Hermione can't process her emotions--she can't study for them but it doesn't affect her ability to do magic. There are two big mistakes she made: one with the House Elves and one with the Centaurs (she said "I knew you would help us" and didn't think of the response). In both cases, her mistakes were made against non-humans.
I would include as "mistakes" Hermione's incredible hypocrisy in tampering with the Quidditch tryouts so that Ron would have an advantage and later berating Harry for (she assumed) giving Ron the luck potion to play well. Her idea to steal from Snape's potions stores, drug fellow students, and use polyjuice to steal other's identity in order to spy on other students was a huge mistake, especially since innocent students were injured and all was for naught since the Trio's assumption that Draco was guilty was completely erroneous. There's lots more mistakes, but that's a couple.
Hermione is the key to bringing in some outside creatures for the final war. This is a curious notion, especially since Hermione was so inept at dealing with house elves and centaurs.
There was also some discussion about Hermione/Snape (lots of the girls there loved this 'ship a lot) and Hermione/Draco. The question the moderator put forth was what makes these ships so attractive in fanfic?
Just looking at the personalities alone, I don't think Hermione would be interested in the Snape personality type. I think people assume that any two highly intelligent people would be drawn to each other and that's obviously not true. As regards the teacher/student thing -- well, Snape started teaching at about age 21, so the idea that he could have a relationship with a former student isn't far-fetched (aside from the personality problem ). And as wizards live far longer than muggles, 20 years wouldn't eventually seem like a big deal. I've seen speculation (which I don't buy) that there was a relationship between McGonagall and Dumbledore and they were 60-70 years apart. Even in real life, relationships between people 20 years apart are not unheard of and can be successful.
As regards Draco, I can see why people think that ship could be a possibility. Although Draco acts awfully to Hermione, it sometimes looks like "methinks the gentleman doth protest to much" (to mangle Shakespeare). It does sometimes seem like Draco pays far too much attention to Hermione if he really dislikes her so much. It would be easy to imagine that Draco is actually interested in her, but resists any attraction because his pureblood code is so deeply ingrained. If he got over the pureblood stuff and reformed? Yeah, I could see Hermione liking him. They're both sort of arrogant, they both are the types that always think they're "right" -- probably even after they change their mind. And Draco appears to be a pretty bright kid, even if he can get sort of whiny. If Draco grew up some and turned to the good side, I could see a Draco/Hermione ship -- which, I believe, is how the fan fics tend to write it.
Edited
Solitaire - May 27, 2007 10:21 am (#2120 of 2486)
Pamzter, I do not believe Lina was saying that slavery around us is a thing that must be accepted. I think she meant that Hermione's belief that she knows what is best for the House-Elves was a lot like people all around us who tend to think that they have all the answers to the problems of others. You must own that this is true.
When one goes about setting free any group of people who have been enslaved for as long as anyone can remember, it is wise to have a plan of action to help the freed people establish themselves as independent and assimilate into society. Simply setting people free without providing any assistance or coping tools to help them find a comfortable and safe place in society is not benevolent; it is cruel. Certainly there will be those who can instantly find a niche and thrive. Others may fall victim to further abuse from a society that didn't want them to be freed in the first place (think Malfoys).
In the case of the House-Elves, many Wizarding families may choose not to have an Elf if they have to pay him and treat him decently and with respect. Dobby could probably be a tremendous help to Hermione in her efforts, if she chooses to consult him. He would know the points where the House-Elves need persuading, education, training, employment help, etc. He probably also knows where she is going to find active and extreme resistance among the Wizards and might be able to help her anticipate and deflect it.
If Hermione's bottom line with SPEW is true House-Elf emancipation, she needs to approach it with logic, common sense, and a great deal of compassion for and understanding of those she is trying to set free. JM2K, of course ...
Solitaire
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Lina - May 27, 2007 12:22 pm (#2121 of 2486)
Thank you, Solitaire, indeed, for the help because I didn't know where to start with the answer.
The point is that I question the slavery of house elves. Although it is true that some wizard families treat them badly, not all of them do. It is in their nature to serve people. Think of Dobby. He was happy to be free because he suffered (more emotionally than physically) at the Malfoy house, but at the same time he followed Harry everywhere and wanted to work for him. Think of Winky. What was the worst punishment for her? To set her free. Dumbledore had house elves at Hogwarts. He didn't give them money for their work (mostly), he only treated them with respect much before Hermione was aware of their existence. Any of the house elves could have taken the clothes that Hermione was leaving for them around. But instead, they chose not to go to the Griffindor tower and Dobby had to do all that work. What is unimaginable for one person might be totally acceptable for another. And who gives the right to one person to say to the other how to live? By pushing house elves to rebellion, Hermione denied them the freedom to choose what they want in their life.
It might be just the extreme example, I can agree with that, but the fairy tales are about showing extreme examples.
Chemyst - May 27, 2007 12:41 pm (#2122 of 2486)
Slavery is not a custom or way of living. It's black and white wrong. – Pamzter
If slavery is black-and-white wrong, and house elves choose enslavement, then shouldn't we throw them all in Azkaban?
I don't think the term "slave" fully applies to the lot of the house elf. I see several distinctions between their work and true slavery that Hermione either refused to acknowledge or purposely overlooked.
(1) Slaves are property. House elves are not owned, but bound (attached) to a house. We have no canon to indicate they can be sold or traded for profit. They seem to have a hereditary indenture; a contract would have to be broken to end it.
(2) Several other characters have told her that the house elves like to work; it is their preference. Slavery is work forced against one's preference.
(3) The house elves were actually fearful of getting one of Hermione's knitted creations to the extent that only Dobby would clean the Gryffindor common room; (and we see that no one forced them to clean it anyway). In a very bizarre twist, these elves sacrificed their preferred work in protest against manumission.
Unarguably there are aspects of a house elf's life that have the appearance of slavery. But when they were offered a chance at self-determination, they chose the status quo.
I agree with Lina that this is a fairytale allegory that is making a statement on the importance of self-determination.
Choices - May 27, 2007 1:43 pm (#2123 of 2486)
Edited May 27, 2007 3:07 pm
Going back several posts to the comments about the fanfics pairing Snape and Hermione. I have often wondered what would have happened or how we would have perceived Snape if he had been portrayed by....say the guy who plays Filch, instead of Alan Rickman. Rickman has changed the whole way we look at Snape. Book Snape was never supposed to have the appeal or charisma that Rickman brings to the screen Snape. Under different circumstances, I could possibly imagine our Hermione having a school-girl crush on Snape - being drawn to his power as a wizard, his mystery and intelligence, but I would never pair them in a serious way.
Mrs Brisbee - May 27, 2007 2:11 pm (#2124 of 2486)
My seven-year-old was watching the movie this morning after listening to the book the day before. One of the first things she said was, "I didn't picture Snape looking like that! He's too good looking." Ah, the mysteries of movie casting. Anyway, my opinion of Hermione/Snape also falls firmly in the "Ick" category. For Draco, I just don't see him having anything that would ever attract Hermione.
Back to the slavery of the House Elves-- yes, it is slavery, I would say, because the wizards who employ the House Elves are allowed to treat it like slavery. The House Elves are bound to serve, and masters don't have to release them unless the masters want to. Beating House Elves seems to be legal.
But I agree with Solitaire's assessment of where Hermione went wrong. She didn't try to understand the creatures involved, or respect them. Maybe in the future she will pursue SPEW in a more mature way. Maybe she'll re-organize the Society under a different, better name, with an updated and more practical mission.
Jenniffler - May 27, 2007 2:56 pm (#2125 of 2486)
Hermione is right about house elf enslavement. She just has not found the right tactic to convince the house elves. An underground freedom plan is not the best way to lure out those oppressed by injustice.
I think those who see a need for change before all the pieces are in place should not be mocked for taking the wrong approach.
Another point might be that House-elves made a deal with wizards early on that allowed them to join a wizarding household, making most believe they are choosing to stay out of tradition or out of enjoying the benefits of magic in close quarters.
In a perfect world, house-elves would be like actors with the ability to option out of a magical tale. Hermione the uber agent.
wynnleaf - May 27, 2007 2:57 pm (#2126 of 2486)
Do the HP books actually call it slavery? Well, that is, I know Hermione may, but is it truly slavery in the Wizarding World? I guess what I mean is that if the house elves more-or-less bind themselves to the family, then aren't they more like life-time bond servants? As was said earlier, their families to whom their bound may have authority to tell them what to do, but they can't sell them off, only free them.
Overall, I agree with Solitaire's comments about this one. It's not that Hermione is wrong about freedom for house elves, but she goes about it completely wrong. It's a very parental attitude. I used to live in an area of a country where people were only a generation or two from stone age (literally). Westerners were often apt to think that they should be able to just come in and change people's lives "for the better" even if those people had no desire for it, or it would completely up-end their culture. Hermione reminds me of that attitude.
Solitaire - May 27, 2007 4:44 pm (#2127 of 2486)
Jenniffler, I do not think anyone was mocking (ridiculing or deriding) Hermione. We were criticizing--constructively, I think--a very real failure on her part to take into consideration some serious issues. I don't think this necessarily shows insensitivity. I do think it is just a reflection of her youth and idealism. Hermione sees what she perceives as an injustice and attempts to set about righting it, without having given the problem enough research.
Before I am attacked on the issue of her lack of research, I do admit Hermione did research in the Hogwarts library for a few days. But when she is attempting to set the the magical world on its ear, I think more than a few days of research is going to be required. She is going to have to do some serious interviewing with House-Elves from different backgrounds. She is also going to have to find out how House-Elves came to be in their current social status before she attempts to change it. Finally, she is going to have to come up with a plan to provide jobs and housing for all House-Elves who choose to become free.
Such changes are probably not something a young girl in school is going to be able to effect by herself. She is going to need the cooperation of the Ministry of Magic officials in various capacities. Somehow, I do not envision Crouch or Fudge showing much interest in her proposals at this time.
Solitaire
Jenniffler - May 27, 2007 5:04 pm (#2128 of 2486)
I do not think anyone was mocking (ridiculing or deriding) Hermione. --Solitaire
No,no! Not my fellow posters. People in the book. I meant in the book Ron teased her a lot about her approach. Sirius didn't care. I think she was less approachable beacause of her stance, like a suffragette in the mid 1800's.
Solitaire - May 27, 2007 11:52 pm (#2129 of 2486)
Somehow, I do not envision Crouch or Fudge showing much interest in her proposals at this time.
BTW, I was talking about the time frame when she started S.P.E.W. I realize Crouch is now dead and Fudge is no longer Minister.
Solitaire
Pamzter - May 28, 2007 2:59 am (#2130 of 2486)
Of the thoughts I was sure I was going to get slammed on (that Hermione went about it the wrong way or it mirroring Harry's situation), the last one I imagined was about my statement that slavery is morally wrong.
Slavery is one person being the property of (owned and controlled by) another person. It does not matter if it is by choice (bond servant/contract), or whether or not they “like” the work, or how well they are treated, or whether or not they fear freedom, or what is determined to be status quo.
Perhaps some will consider this all far too serious for these boards and the purpose of this particular thread, but with over 20 million people currently in bondage TODAY, I feel that I cannot be serious enough in making this point.
And now I will hold back on anything further and step down off my pulpit, take a deep breath, and go back to enjoying JK’s imaginary world and think about something light and frothy – maybe revisit the threads on pygmy puffs and Dumbledore as the Giant Squid.
Jenniffler - May 28, 2007 6:57 am (#2131 of 2486)
Hear, Hear, Pamzter, Hermione agrees with you. I agree with you. I don't think the house elves do. This is what the books ARE about; the "whimzy" is to reflect real life and also provide comic relief. Otherwise, no one would stick aroung for the serious issues.
Hermione is heavy-handed. Perhaps if she would take a lighter stance we wouldn't trust her so much. Even when she vanishes repeatedly and sends birds pelting in a jealous rage, I feel she is anchored to someting more solid than fact and figures.
Hermione is the best real, fictional girl that ever there was.
wynnleaf - May 28, 2007 8:48 am (#2132 of 2486)
Of the thoughts I was sure I was going to get slammed on (that Hermione went about it the wrong way or it mirroring Harry's situation), the last one I imagined was about my statement that slavery is morally wrong. (Pamtzer)
I don't think anyone meant to "slam" you, just bring up some other points.
The problem with the slavery versus house elf thing is the preference of the house elves themselves. And that's what Hermione, mainly probably through immaturity I imagine, just doesn't see.
It's easy to say "free the elves," and "pay the elves," but that doesn't help if the elves actually don't want to be paid and don't want the bond broken. And JKR isn't completely clear about the whole thing, so it's hard to say that the bond of house elves in and of itself is a bad thing. Obviously, Hermione sees it as horrible because the elves can't get out of it and don't get paid.
Dobby still doesn't get paid. Not really. He just gets little benefits. He still will obey Harry unquestioningly. We might say "because he wants to obey Harry," or "he wants to serve Harry," but in fact the regular house elves want to obey and serve also. The main problem is that they can't leave if they want to leave. But on the other hand, they don't want to leave.
House elves are not human slaves and shouldn't be assumed to have human motivations, desires, etc. Hermione assumes they are just like humans - just smaller, with different powers, and deluded. Part of her immaturity is that she doesn't understand that they really are different and addressing their problems can't be done as though they all think just like her.
Soul Search - May 28, 2007 10:06 am (#2133 of 2486)
The house elves are sure they have a good thing going. In spite of the mistreatments of a few, generally they are well off.
They are provided for by those they serve. The work isn't hard or dangerous, just boring (to us, not necessarily to them.) They don't need wands, they can do a lot of magic without them. They don't need "sick leave," because they are taken care of, if sick. They don't need "pensions," they stay at their jobs, doing whatever they are capable of, until they die.
We saw this in GoF; the Hogwart's house elves tried to distance themselves from Dobby. They thought Dobby would ruin the good deal they had.
If house elves were free, what other work could they find? Who would pay them. Even Dobby couldn't find paid work.
No, house elves don't want to be "freed;" they have the best deal going of any magical creatures.
Lina - May 28, 2007 10:24 am (#2134 of 2486)
I would never say that slavery is not a bad thing. Never. What I say is that I'm not sure that it is slavery.
This time I'm helped by wynnleaf: House elves are not human slaves and shouldn't be assumed to have human motivations, desires, etc.
I agree. I don't really mean to compare the house elves with dogs, they are much more similar to humans than to dogs. I don't think that they are worth less because they are not human, but actually, I don't even think that dogs are totally worthless. And dogs are definitely much more happy if they have an owner than if they don't. Although it is true that there exist bad dog owners as well, and those owners shouldn't have dogs. The Muggle community even has its way to take away dogs from bad owners. Maybe Wizard community should have similar ways of protecting house elves. But giving them salary and setting them free won't make them happy. And making them unhappy that way is no better than being a bad owner. That is actually my point.
And it is also a fact that the history shows us too many situations where cultures were destroyed by bringing them "better life". I still think it is a good parallel.
If the house elves were really slaves, I don't think that Hogwarts would have any and I also don't think that Fred and George wouldn't support Hermione.
Solitaire - May 28, 2007 10:26 am (#2135 of 2486)
Pamzter, I am not sure you are understanding what some of us are saying here. NO ONE is disagreeing that slavery is morally reprehensible. In fact, the entire crux of what we are discussing here is that if Hermione truly wants to emancipate the House-Elves, she needs to do it properly, or they could wind up in worse shape than they are already. Her youth and idealism seem to have clouded her ability to see how to properly accomplish the task. By not properly preparing the House-Elves for freedom--and not having laws in place to protect them from those who would prey upon them once they are free--her actions could potentially endanger them. This doesn't mean that House-Elves shouldn't be set free. It just means that they must be freed in such a way that all of the magical realm recognizes their freedom and behaves accordingly.
Wynnleaf and, I believe, Chemyst also mentioned the idea of bond slavery. Bond slavery, according to Exodus 21:5-6, is a situation in which a slave freely chooses to remain in the service of his master forever, despite the option of freedom. It is possible that some of the House-Elves truly are in this position. They like what they do and choose to be where they are.
Jo has shown us four different House-Elf situations through Dobby, Kreacher, Winky, and the Hogwarts House-Elves. Dobby shows us a House-Elf who refuses to be completely bound by his enchantments when they violate what is morally wrong. Perhaps he is representative of a younger generation of House-Elves who are more socially aware of their position in society and would like to change it. He shows us that some House-Elves do not like their situations and will find a way to get around their evil masters, if they can. But as Wynnleaf points out, Dobby is more than willing to serve Harry. Even though Harry has never offered to pay him, Dobby would probably serve Harry out of genuine affection.
Next we see Winky. She seems to be representative of House-Elves who take pride in the fact that they are trusted servants and valued members of their households--despite the fact that we may feel the things they are asked to do are demeaning. She thinks Dobby is bad because he "abandoned" the Malfoys. Winky's identity seems bound up in her service to the Crouches. Once dismissed, she loses her sense of self. Unable to cope with the loss of her family, she becomes a substance abuser.
Then there is Kreacher, who seems to be both insane and somewhat evil. Was he made this way by those whom he served? Dumbledore seems to believe so. He certainly "spewed" the same venomous prejudices he no doubt heard his masters express--even though they probably held him to be an inferior being. Interestingly, even after Kreacher's employers died, he continued to stay with the house. Surely he could have gone free, had he wanted to do so. Who would have stopped him? So ... why didn't he leave?
Finally, we have the Hogwarts elves. They seem to enjoy their place in the order of things to the extent that they are afraid of accidentally doing something that might set them free. I wonder ... have they always been at Hogwarts, or are some of them like Dobby, refugees who fled evil masters? Perhaps working for such a gentle and benevolent master as Dumbledore seems like freedom to them.
I think Wynnleaf's last paragraph says it all: House elves are not human slaves and shouldn't be assumed to have human motivations, desires, etc. Hermione assumes they are just like humans - just smaller, with different powers, and deluded. Part of her immaturity is that she doesn't understand that they really are different and addressing their problems can't be done as though they all think just like her.
Solitaire
Catherine - May 28, 2007 2:12 pm (#2136 of 2486)
The debate about the meaning of slavery in the historical muggle world and the fictional wizard world and the debate about house elf enslavement should, in the end, relate to Hermione Granger.
The last several posts have veered away from that focus.
This is all a great discussion, so I encourage everyone to discuss it on the proper thread--or else make sure the post relates to Hermione in a significant manner.
journeymom - May 28, 2007 2:21 pm (#2137 of 2486)
Hermione is right about house elf enslavement. She just has not found the right tactic to convince the house elves. An underground freedom plan is not the best way to lure out those oppressed by injustice. Jenniffler
Here lies, possibly, the problem with Hermione's attitude. Maybe Hermione isn't going to convince them, but they are going to come to the conclusion themselves. A while back the suggestion was that if the elves believed their territory was under attack they would rise up and defend it. "Voldemort is not touching Winky's peaches!" Zzzappp!
But she does sometimes have the wrong attitude about non-human magical beings. Didn't she call the centaurs 'horses'? Notable, as Trelawney called Firenze 'the nag'.
wynnleaf - May 28, 2007 6:31 pm (#2138 of 2486)
One of the things that sometimes concerns me about Hermione isn't that she makes initial mistakes, but that I'm not sure that she learns that she has made a mistake.
In the house elf problem, she makes these mistakes of trying to push a freedom movement on the house elves. They obviously don't like it. But she doesn't learn anything from that. She starts this plan to trick them into freedom, which once again the house elves resent. Apparently, the rest of Gryffindor House "gets it" that the house elves absolutely don't like what Hermione is doing, but she still keeps it up.
If all this occurred over one year, and then Hermione learned from it that she needed to approach the house elves completely differently, I'd feel differently about what Hermione did. After all, she's a teenager and can certainly make mistakes. But she doesn't seem to be learning from her mistakes.
I don't want to get into the Marietta question, but I did note in HBP that when Hermione activated the coins to call the former DA members, the large majority of the members had either quit carrying their coins (meaning they weren't planning to continue with the DA), or just disregarded the call. The loyal few did continue to carry their coins, so it doesn't seem just coincidence that those certain few were the ones who still carried them, while everyone else just happened to think the DA was disbanded, or lost their coins, or whatever other purely coincidental reason of not answering the coin. We aren't told why the other members had apparently lost their commitment to the DA, but I wonder how much it was affected by learning that Hermione had secretly put a hex on the list they signed, thereby binding them magically without their knowledge. It's another case of "Hermione knows best" that other people can really resent, even if they don't in general disagree with the overall intent (of protecting the DA from informers).
I often feel like Hermione doesn't see her faults at all. I was so amazed at her berating Harry about supposedly using the Felix potion to give Ron good luck in a Quidditch game, when she herself had only shortly before used magic to make sure Ron's tryout went better than McLaggen's. It's like she had no sense of the hypocrisy of her attitude. One would think she'd be embarrassed to criticize Harry so much when she was well aware that Harry knew what she'd done during the tryouts. But no, she didn't appear to even think of it.
TheSaint - May 28, 2007 9:34 pm (#2139 of 2486)
wynnleaf - We aren't told why the other members had apparently lost their commitment to the DA, but I wonder how much it was affected by learning that Hermione had secretly put a hex on the list they signed, thereby binding them magically without their knowledge. It's another case of "Hermione knows best" that other people can really resent, even if they don't in general disagree with the overall intent (of protecting the DA from informers).
What about the 'Ernie, do you really think I'd leave that list lying around?' She proceeds to tack it to the wall of the ROR - seems to be lying around to me - and then Umbridge gets ahold of all of their names. Might give a person reason to think they should not continue, as the leaders are not so competent.
But, even Harry declares the DA unnecessary in the start of 6th year, and then wants to call on them at the end of the year. I always found that a bit strange.
Mrs Brisbee - May 29, 2007 7:14 am (#2140 of 2486)
Like Wynnleaf, I too wondered if Hermione's jinx and careless treatment of the Parchment would lead to members of the DA being wary of her, but nothing really seems to have come of it. I think TheSaint is right, and the DA dissolved because of the disinterest of its leaders. Umbridge was gone from the school, and Harry in particular seems to have little interest in DADA once Snape was made DADA professor.
Soul Search - May 29, 2007 8:00 am (#2141 of 2486)
wynnleaf,
Good characterization of our favorite know-it-all.
I think we see the same thing in smaller ways, like the "Homework Diarys" in OotP.
I hadn't thought of DA members fearing their coins, or Hermione, but I think you may have something there.
Choices - May 29, 2007 6:02 pm (#2142 of 2486)
Wynnleaf - "Apparently, the rest of Gryffindor House "gets it" that the house elves absolutely don't like what Hermione is doing, but she still keeps it up."
I may be mistaken, but I didn't get the impression that the rest of Gryffindor House cared one way or the other about house elf rights. I think it was only Harry who knew that Hermione was trying to "trick" them because Dobby told him he was taking the hats and things Hermione left around because the other house elfs resented it and refused to clean the Gryffindor area.
Wynnleaf - "....when she herself had only shortly before used magic to make sure Ron's tryout went better than McLaggen's."
This is nit-picky I know, but I don't think Hermione really had any control over how Ron's try-out went. She used magic on McLaggen and he did not do well, but Ron could have completely blown it and been even worse than McLaggen. She may have given Ron an edge, but it was then up to Ron to out-perform McLaggen.
wynnleaf - May 29, 2007 6:19 pm (#2143 of 2486)
As regards the house elves in Gryffindor, all of Gryffindor knew of Hermione's SPEW project. Surely people were bound to wonder about the hats, right? And absolutely they must have noticed that the elves wouldn't clean there anymore. This is a dorm, after all. Of course it got around exactly why the elves stopped cleaning.
Now about the Quidditch tryouts. Yes, Ron tried his best, but he didn't have to outperform McLaggen at his best. So the tryouts weren't fair because Ron's best might not have been up to McLaggen's best, and McLaggen wasn't given the chance to show that. Hermione cheated to give Ron a better chance in the tryouts, but berated Harry for supposedly giving Ron a better chance in a game.
Choices - May 29, 2007 6:40 pm (#2144 of 2486)
Wynnleaf - "As regards the house elves in Gryffindor, all of Gryffindor knew of Hermione's SPEW project. Surely people were bound to wonder about the hats, right? And absolutely they must have noticed that the elves wouldn't clean there anymore. This is a dorm, after all. Of course it got around exactly why the elves stopped cleaning."
I agree the kids knew about S.P.E.W., but they certainly were not interested in it. I doubt they even noticed about the cleaning because Dobby did it all himself and removed the hats each night. We are told that Dobby revealed to Harry that the other house elfs wouldn't clean Gryffindor because they resented the hats hidden about. It is possible that the other kids knew, but we are not told specifically that they did. It is just conjecture on our part.
rambkowalczyk - May 30, 2007 4:07 am (#2145 of 2486)
I tend to agree with Choices. Kids are oblivious to housework getting done or mot getting done. They may have noticed hats/socks lying around and thought nothing of it. Hermione could have even stated what she was doing out loud and been ignored by most of the students.
wynnleaf - May 30, 2007 4:36 am (#2146 of 2486)
Kids are oblivious to housework getting done or mot getting done. They may have noticed hats/socks lying around and thought nothing of it. Hermione could have even stated what she was doing out loud and been ignored by most of the students. (rambkowalczyk)
Well, I disagree that most students would be completely unaware of what Hermione was doing or the house elves disapproval. But that really isn't important to the point, which is that Hermione continues to attempt methods of forcing the house elves to accept freedom and over a period of years does not learn that this is counterproductive. Hermione isn't learning from her mistakes, nor even learning that they are mistakes.
As regards dealing with others, or her particular brand of self-righteousness (which JKR has openly admitted), Hermione has not grown and developed. She hasn't learned anything in this area, that I can see.
Die Zimtzicke - May 30, 2007 12:38 pm (#2147 of 2486)
What I can't understand is, it was not Hermione that tied the house elves to Hogwarts in the first place, and she certainly did not own them in any sense of the word. How was her hiding clothes for them too pick up supposed to free them? We know they can handle clothes, because they do ironing and laundry. Hermione was not their owner GIVING them clothes in any direct way. I don't think she freed anyone. I think she just hacked them off, with the exception of Dobby, who was the only elf not insulted by the gesture.
I don't think she knew what she was doing, frankly.
Lina - May 30, 2007 2:33 pm (#2148 of 2486)
Your point, Die Z, makes sense. But weather she was able to set them free or not, she was trying to do that against their will. It is really possible that they refused to clean the Griffindor tower because they were insulted rather than because they were afraid to be freed.
Die Zimtzicke - May 30, 2007 3:01 pm (#2149 of 2486)
I honestly think that is the case. She insulted them by trying to trick them. If it were as easy as them just picking up clothes, they wouldn't be able to iron and we know Ron's mother wanted one to do the ironing at one point, and that Dobby ironed his hands to punish himself, so presumably he was allowed to handle an iron.
That wasn't very bright of Hermione. If she really read up on them, she should have realized that their master has to directly present them with clothes somehow, which is what I think happens. It makes no sense to have them just be able to pick up clothes and be freed. Malfoy tossed the sock to Dobby in the book. Dobby didn't just pick up a sock lying around. It just was NOT one of Hermione's brighter ideas to leave hats lying around, in my opinion.
journeymom - May 30, 2007 3:17 pm (#2150 of 2486)
That's a really great point, Die Zim.
Catherine - May 30, 2007 3:36 pm (#2151 of 2486)
I honestly think that is the case. She insulted them by trying to trick them. If it were as easy as them just picking up clothes, they wouldn't be able to iron and we know Ron's mother wanted one to do the ironing at one point, and that Dobby ironed his hands to punish himself, so presumably he was allowed to handle an iron.
You already stated the point about intent. Intent is key here. Hermione intended to free them by default, or to free them by a subterfuge, as Harry freed Dobby. Dobby's intent, was toward freedom, and I conclude that he ultimately wished to be freed (given the extraordinary efforts he made to advise Harry of both his mistreatment and his desire to help Harry Potter). The majority of elves at Hogwarts, if our narration is correct, do not follow Dobby's example, and thus their wishes do not follow Hermione's efforts toward their (possible) freedom.
wynnleaf - May 30, 2007 5:10 pm (#2152 of 2486)
It is really possible that they refused to clean the Griffindor tower because they were insulted rather than because they were afraid to be freed. (Lina)
I agree. I don't see how Hermione could free a Hogwarts elf, any more than Harry could free Dobby. Harry had to trick Lucius into freeing Dobby, because only a Malfoy had that ability.
I'm curious to see if we get any real growth from Hermione in this area in DH. I don't mean so much the house elf thing specifically, but her self-righteousness and knowing what's best for everybody else. Since this is something JKR has acknowledged, but hasn't really changed in 6 books (at least, I don't think she's had Hermione change in this area), I hope JKR has Hermione grow some in this area in DH.
Maybe it's too much to accomplish in one book.
Rosie Lu - May 30, 2007 7:01 pm (#2153 of 2486)
One thing I'm looking forward to in DH is the House-Elf issue, which many of you are already discussing. I think Jo said something about them causing her some issues (in a playful way) when writing DH, so hopefully we'll get some good resolution there. We already know that Hermione's issue with the elves was a plot point Rowling didn't intended to be as big as it was (I think she said something about Hermione running with that plot more than she intended, but it'll still be interesting, especially with that elf-looking creature on the cover of DH.
Mediwitch - May 30, 2007 7:20 pm (#2154 of 2486)
Since Jo has commented that so much of Hermione is based on herself, I wonder if Hermione's development will parallel Jo's perception of her own growth in regards to her self-righteous swottiness.
Lina - May 30, 2007 9:54 pm (#2155 of 2486)
You know, Hermione is not stupid at all. I wonder if this her mistake of believing that she could actually set Hogwarts house elves free, has some additional meaning? Is it just because she was a Muggle born that she didn't understand the concept of house elves or is there more to it? George and Fred tried to explain her that house elves are happy doing the house work, but we don't see them explaining her that she is not able to give them freedom. Maybe that's what they just thought was more important to explain which I think is true.
I find that her slower development in thinking that she knows what is best for everybody is appropriate for her age in the books. Another example of JKR portraying people realistically.
My Mum has a saying that a stupid person can see better their own problems than a clever person can see other people's problems.
journeymom - May 30, 2007 10:23 pm (#2156 of 2486)
I'm curious to see if we get any real growth from Hermione in this area in DH. I don't mean so much the house elf thing specifically, but her self-righteousness and knowing what's best for everybody else. Since this is something JKR has acknowledged, but hasn't really changed in 6 books (at least, I don't think she's had Hermione change in this area), I hope JKR has Hermione grow some in this area in DH.
One small example of maturation on Hermione's part- in PoA somebody's bunny dies, and supposedly Trelawney predicted it. Hermione treats whomever owned the bunny rather cruelly, when she bluntly points out how illogical it is to think that Trelawney predicted it.
In OotP? or is it HBP? Luna explains another of her outlandish theories. (This scene was wonderfully done.) Hermione looked like she was going to challenge Luna, struggled with herself for a moment and said kindly, 'That's fascinating, Luna.'
I was so like this when I was a kid. I corrected people, because they were wrong, and somebody has to make the correction, right? No finesse, not subtlety, just- 'No, that's wrong, this is the way it is.' I was completely oblivious to the fact that others might be offended or hurt by my bluntness! And it took me longer than it took Hermione to figure out that correcting people doesn't win you social points!
Solitaire - May 30, 2007 10:52 pm (#2157 of 2486)
I agree that Hermione's efforts are not a lack of intelligence. She is very bright, as we have been told, and she has a great deal of knowledge and information. She does, however, lack wisdom in some areas. That is something that can only come with age and experience. Like Lina's mom, I think it may be more difficult for a Mensa-type personality like Hermione to see flaws in her own logic. This will probably be the area where we see her grow the most ... I hope.
Solitaire
Luna Logic - May 31, 2007 4:59 am (#2158 of 2486)
Bright observations and post, Journeymom - I share your experience of life ! And I agree.
As Solitaire says, "Hermione lacks wisdom in some areas". Could we say then that those areas are social areas? As Luna (but less !), she lacks of some social skills. But, unlike Luna, Hermione is learning... And that makes her a great character.
Die Zimtzicke - May 31, 2007 8:07 am (#2159 of 2486)
I would agree, except Hermoine usually bases everything she believes in on books. She got books and studied the house elf issue. Wouldn't it have said somewhere that their owner has to free them? She must have thought she was powerful enough to circumvent that, either that, or she didn't study the issue way she normally does, because she was stuck on her preconceived notions.
Jenniffler - May 31, 2007 8:31 am (#2160 of 2486)
I've got a suggestion about why Hermione started knitting. She would nevere admit she would reconcile her house-elf subordination to wizards. Knitting seems to be an attempt to reach out to them, but I think (and this is a what if..?) she might have been filling her rare free time with activity because she is limited in her capacity to help them. She either researches or she worries. Knitting is a nice change.
Also she knits because it is old fashioned, pattern-based, tangible and reliable(just like books.)Dumbledore loves a good pattern (stalling in the old lady's restroom.)These two facts suggest to me that Ms. Rowling might, in fact, knit. It is a great way to keep busy and productive without being too cerebral.
(If only I could sit for long or remember to count, I too would probably pick up the needles.)
Thank you, Solitaire, indeed, for the help because I didn't know where to start with the answer.
The point is that I question the slavery of house elves. Although it is true that some wizard families treat them badly, not all of them do. It is in their nature to serve people. Think of Dobby. He was happy to be free because he suffered (more emotionally than physically) at the Malfoy house, but at the same time he followed Harry everywhere and wanted to work for him. Think of Winky. What was the worst punishment for her? To set her free. Dumbledore had house elves at Hogwarts. He didn't give them money for their work (mostly), he only treated them with respect much before Hermione was aware of their existence. Any of the house elves could have taken the clothes that Hermione was leaving for them around. But instead, they chose not to go to the Griffindor tower and Dobby had to do all that work. What is unimaginable for one person might be totally acceptable for another. And who gives the right to one person to say to the other how to live? By pushing house elves to rebellion, Hermione denied them the freedom to choose what they want in their life.
It might be just the extreme example, I can agree with that, but the fairy tales are about showing extreme examples.
Chemyst - May 27, 2007 12:41 pm (#2122 of 2486)
Slavery is not a custom or way of living. It's black and white wrong. – Pamzter
If slavery is black-and-white wrong, and house elves choose enslavement, then shouldn't we throw them all in Azkaban?
I don't think the term "slave" fully applies to the lot of the house elf. I see several distinctions between their work and true slavery that Hermione either refused to acknowledge or purposely overlooked.
(1) Slaves are property. House elves are not owned, but bound (attached) to a house. We have no canon to indicate they can be sold or traded for profit. They seem to have a hereditary indenture; a contract would have to be broken to end it.
(2) Several other characters have told her that the house elves like to work; it is their preference. Slavery is work forced against one's preference.
(3) The house elves were actually fearful of getting one of Hermione's knitted creations to the extent that only Dobby would clean the Gryffindor common room; (and we see that no one forced them to clean it anyway). In a very bizarre twist, these elves sacrificed their preferred work in protest against manumission.
Unarguably there are aspects of a house elf's life that have the appearance of slavery. But when they were offered a chance at self-determination, they chose the status quo.
I agree with Lina that this is a fairytale allegory that is making a statement on the importance of self-determination.
Choices - May 27, 2007 1:43 pm (#2123 of 2486)
Edited May 27, 2007 3:07 pm
Going back several posts to the comments about the fanfics pairing Snape and Hermione. I have often wondered what would have happened or how we would have perceived Snape if he had been portrayed by....say the guy who plays Filch, instead of Alan Rickman. Rickman has changed the whole way we look at Snape. Book Snape was never supposed to have the appeal or charisma that Rickman brings to the screen Snape. Under different circumstances, I could possibly imagine our Hermione having a school-girl crush on Snape - being drawn to his power as a wizard, his mystery and intelligence, but I would never pair them in a serious way.
Mrs Brisbee - May 27, 2007 2:11 pm (#2124 of 2486)
My seven-year-old was watching the movie this morning after listening to the book the day before. One of the first things she said was, "I didn't picture Snape looking like that! He's too good looking." Ah, the mysteries of movie casting. Anyway, my opinion of Hermione/Snape also falls firmly in the "Ick" category. For Draco, I just don't see him having anything that would ever attract Hermione.
Back to the slavery of the House Elves-- yes, it is slavery, I would say, because the wizards who employ the House Elves are allowed to treat it like slavery. The House Elves are bound to serve, and masters don't have to release them unless the masters want to. Beating House Elves seems to be legal.
But I agree with Solitaire's assessment of where Hermione went wrong. She didn't try to understand the creatures involved, or respect them. Maybe in the future she will pursue SPEW in a more mature way. Maybe she'll re-organize the Society under a different, better name, with an updated and more practical mission.
Jenniffler - May 27, 2007 2:56 pm (#2125 of 2486)
Hermione is right about house elf enslavement. She just has not found the right tactic to convince the house elves. An underground freedom plan is not the best way to lure out those oppressed by injustice.
I think those who see a need for change before all the pieces are in place should not be mocked for taking the wrong approach.
Another point might be that House-elves made a deal with wizards early on that allowed them to join a wizarding household, making most believe they are choosing to stay out of tradition or out of enjoying the benefits of magic in close quarters.
In a perfect world, house-elves would be like actors with the ability to option out of a magical tale. Hermione the uber agent.
wynnleaf - May 27, 2007 2:57 pm (#2126 of 2486)
Do the HP books actually call it slavery? Well, that is, I know Hermione may, but is it truly slavery in the Wizarding World? I guess what I mean is that if the house elves more-or-less bind themselves to the family, then aren't they more like life-time bond servants? As was said earlier, their families to whom their bound may have authority to tell them what to do, but they can't sell them off, only free them.
Overall, I agree with Solitaire's comments about this one. It's not that Hermione is wrong about freedom for house elves, but she goes about it completely wrong. It's a very parental attitude. I used to live in an area of a country where people were only a generation or two from stone age (literally). Westerners were often apt to think that they should be able to just come in and change people's lives "for the better" even if those people had no desire for it, or it would completely up-end their culture. Hermione reminds me of that attitude.
Solitaire - May 27, 2007 4:44 pm (#2127 of 2486)
Jenniffler, I do not think anyone was mocking (ridiculing or deriding) Hermione. We were criticizing--constructively, I think--a very real failure on her part to take into consideration some serious issues. I don't think this necessarily shows insensitivity. I do think it is just a reflection of her youth and idealism. Hermione sees what she perceives as an injustice and attempts to set about righting it, without having given the problem enough research.
Before I am attacked on the issue of her lack of research, I do admit Hermione did research in the Hogwarts library for a few days. But when she is attempting to set the the magical world on its ear, I think more than a few days of research is going to be required. She is going to have to do some serious interviewing with House-Elves from different backgrounds. She is also going to have to find out how House-Elves came to be in their current social status before she attempts to change it. Finally, she is going to have to come up with a plan to provide jobs and housing for all House-Elves who choose to become free.
Such changes are probably not something a young girl in school is going to be able to effect by herself. She is going to need the cooperation of the Ministry of Magic officials in various capacities. Somehow, I do not envision Crouch or Fudge showing much interest in her proposals at this time.
Solitaire
Jenniffler - May 27, 2007 5:04 pm (#2128 of 2486)
I do not think anyone was mocking (ridiculing or deriding) Hermione. --Solitaire
No,no! Not my fellow posters. People in the book. I meant in the book Ron teased her a lot about her approach. Sirius didn't care. I think she was less approachable beacause of her stance, like a suffragette in the mid 1800's.
Solitaire - May 27, 2007 11:52 pm (#2129 of 2486)
Somehow, I do not envision Crouch or Fudge showing much interest in her proposals at this time.
BTW, I was talking about the time frame when she started S.P.E.W. I realize Crouch is now dead and Fudge is no longer Minister.
Solitaire
Pamzter - May 28, 2007 2:59 am (#2130 of 2486)
Of the thoughts I was sure I was going to get slammed on (that Hermione went about it the wrong way or it mirroring Harry's situation), the last one I imagined was about my statement that slavery is morally wrong.
Slavery is one person being the property of (owned and controlled by) another person. It does not matter if it is by choice (bond servant/contract), or whether or not they “like” the work, or how well they are treated, or whether or not they fear freedom, or what is determined to be status quo.
Perhaps some will consider this all far too serious for these boards and the purpose of this particular thread, but with over 20 million people currently in bondage TODAY, I feel that I cannot be serious enough in making this point.
And now I will hold back on anything further and step down off my pulpit, take a deep breath, and go back to enjoying JK’s imaginary world and think about something light and frothy – maybe revisit the threads on pygmy puffs and Dumbledore as the Giant Squid.
Jenniffler - May 28, 2007 6:57 am (#2131 of 2486)
Hear, Hear, Pamzter, Hermione agrees with you. I agree with you. I don't think the house elves do. This is what the books ARE about; the "whimzy" is to reflect real life and also provide comic relief. Otherwise, no one would stick aroung for the serious issues.
Hermione is heavy-handed. Perhaps if she would take a lighter stance we wouldn't trust her so much. Even when she vanishes repeatedly and sends birds pelting in a jealous rage, I feel she is anchored to someting more solid than fact and figures.
Hermione is the best real, fictional girl that ever there was.
wynnleaf - May 28, 2007 8:48 am (#2132 of 2486)
Of the thoughts I was sure I was going to get slammed on (that Hermione went about it the wrong way or it mirroring Harry's situation), the last one I imagined was about my statement that slavery is morally wrong. (Pamtzer)
I don't think anyone meant to "slam" you, just bring up some other points.
The problem with the slavery versus house elf thing is the preference of the house elves themselves. And that's what Hermione, mainly probably through immaturity I imagine, just doesn't see.
It's easy to say "free the elves," and "pay the elves," but that doesn't help if the elves actually don't want to be paid and don't want the bond broken. And JKR isn't completely clear about the whole thing, so it's hard to say that the bond of house elves in and of itself is a bad thing. Obviously, Hermione sees it as horrible because the elves can't get out of it and don't get paid.
Dobby still doesn't get paid. Not really. He just gets little benefits. He still will obey Harry unquestioningly. We might say "because he wants to obey Harry," or "he wants to serve Harry," but in fact the regular house elves want to obey and serve also. The main problem is that they can't leave if they want to leave. But on the other hand, they don't want to leave.
House elves are not human slaves and shouldn't be assumed to have human motivations, desires, etc. Hermione assumes they are just like humans - just smaller, with different powers, and deluded. Part of her immaturity is that she doesn't understand that they really are different and addressing their problems can't be done as though they all think just like her.
Soul Search - May 28, 2007 10:06 am (#2133 of 2486)
The house elves are sure they have a good thing going. In spite of the mistreatments of a few, generally they are well off.
They are provided for by those they serve. The work isn't hard or dangerous, just boring (to us, not necessarily to them.) They don't need wands, they can do a lot of magic without them. They don't need "sick leave," because they are taken care of, if sick. They don't need "pensions," they stay at their jobs, doing whatever they are capable of, until they die.
We saw this in GoF; the Hogwart's house elves tried to distance themselves from Dobby. They thought Dobby would ruin the good deal they had.
If house elves were free, what other work could they find? Who would pay them. Even Dobby couldn't find paid work.
No, house elves don't want to be "freed;" they have the best deal going of any magical creatures.
Lina - May 28, 2007 10:24 am (#2134 of 2486)
I would never say that slavery is not a bad thing. Never. What I say is that I'm not sure that it is slavery.
This time I'm helped by wynnleaf: House elves are not human slaves and shouldn't be assumed to have human motivations, desires, etc.
I agree. I don't really mean to compare the house elves with dogs, they are much more similar to humans than to dogs. I don't think that they are worth less because they are not human, but actually, I don't even think that dogs are totally worthless. And dogs are definitely much more happy if they have an owner than if they don't. Although it is true that there exist bad dog owners as well, and those owners shouldn't have dogs. The Muggle community even has its way to take away dogs from bad owners. Maybe Wizard community should have similar ways of protecting house elves. But giving them salary and setting them free won't make them happy. And making them unhappy that way is no better than being a bad owner. That is actually my point.
And it is also a fact that the history shows us too many situations where cultures were destroyed by bringing them "better life". I still think it is a good parallel.
If the house elves were really slaves, I don't think that Hogwarts would have any and I also don't think that Fred and George wouldn't support Hermione.
Solitaire - May 28, 2007 10:26 am (#2135 of 2486)
Pamzter, I am not sure you are understanding what some of us are saying here. NO ONE is disagreeing that slavery is morally reprehensible. In fact, the entire crux of what we are discussing here is that if Hermione truly wants to emancipate the House-Elves, she needs to do it properly, or they could wind up in worse shape than they are already. Her youth and idealism seem to have clouded her ability to see how to properly accomplish the task. By not properly preparing the House-Elves for freedom--and not having laws in place to protect them from those who would prey upon them once they are free--her actions could potentially endanger them. This doesn't mean that House-Elves shouldn't be set free. It just means that they must be freed in such a way that all of the magical realm recognizes their freedom and behaves accordingly.
Wynnleaf and, I believe, Chemyst also mentioned the idea of bond slavery. Bond slavery, according to Exodus 21:5-6, is a situation in which a slave freely chooses to remain in the service of his master forever, despite the option of freedom. It is possible that some of the House-Elves truly are in this position. They like what they do and choose to be where they are.
Jo has shown us four different House-Elf situations through Dobby, Kreacher, Winky, and the Hogwarts House-Elves. Dobby shows us a House-Elf who refuses to be completely bound by his enchantments when they violate what is morally wrong. Perhaps he is representative of a younger generation of House-Elves who are more socially aware of their position in society and would like to change it. He shows us that some House-Elves do not like their situations and will find a way to get around their evil masters, if they can. But as Wynnleaf points out, Dobby is more than willing to serve Harry. Even though Harry has never offered to pay him, Dobby would probably serve Harry out of genuine affection.
Next we see Winky. She seems to be representative of House-Elves who take pride in the fact that they are trusted servants and valued members of their households--despite the fact that we may feel the things they are asked to do are demeaning. She thinks Dobby is bad because he "abandoned" the Malfoys. Winky's identity seems bound up in her service to the Crouches. Once dismissed, she loses her sense of self. Unable to cope with the loss of her family, she becomes a substance abuser.
Then there is Kreacher, who seems to be both insane and somewhat evil. Was he made this way by those whom he served? Dumbledore seems to believe so. He certainly "spewed" the same venomous prejudices he no doubt heard his masters express--even though they probably held him to be an inferior being. Interestingly, even after Kreacher's employers died, he continued to stay with the house. Surely he could have gone free, had he wanted to do so. Who would have stopped him? So ... why didn't he leave?
Finally, we have the Hogwarts elves. They seem to enjoy their place in the order of things to the extent that they are afraid of accidentally doing something that might set them free. I wonder ... have they always been at Hogwarts, or are some of them like Dobby, refugees who fled evil masters? Perhaps working for such a gentle and benevolent master as Dumbledore seems like freedom to them.
I think Wynnleaf's last paragraph says it all: House elves are not human slaves and shouldn't be assumed to have human motivations, desires, etc. Hermione assumes they are just like humans - just smaller, with different powers, and deluded. Part of her immaturity is that she doesn't understand that they really are different and addressing their problems can't be done as though they all think just like her.
Solitaire
Catherine - May 28, 2007 2:12 pm (#2136 of 2486)
The debate about the meaning of slavery in the historical muggle world and the fictional wizard world and the debate about house elf enslavement should, in the end, relate to Hermione Granger.
The last several posts have veered away from that focus.
This is all a great discussion, so I encourage everyone to discuss it on the proper thread--or else make sure the post relates to Hermione in a significant manner.
journeymom - May 28, 2007 2:21 pm (#2137 of 2486)
Hermione is right about house elf enslavement. She just has not found the right tactic to convince the house elves. An underground freedom plan is not the best way to lure out those oppressed by injustice. Jenniffler
Here lies, possibly, the problem with Hermione's attitude. Maybe Hermione isn't going to convince them, but they are going to come to the conclusion themselves. A while back the suggestion was that if the elves believed their territory was under attack they would rise up and defend it. "Voldemort is not touching Winky's peaches!" Zzzappp!
But she does sometimes have the wrong attitude about non-human magical beings. Didn't she call the centaurs 'horses'? Notable, as Trelawney called Firenze 'the nag'.
wynnleaf - May 28, 2007 6:31 pm (#2138 of 2486)
One of the things that sometimes concerns me about Hermione isn't that she makes initial mistakes, but that I'm not sure that she learns that she has made a mistake.
In the house elf problem, she makes these mistakes of trying to push a freedom movement on the house elves. They obviously don't like it. But she doesn't learn anything from that. She starts this plan to trick them into freedom, which once again the house elves resent. Apparently, the rest of Gryffindor House "gets it" that the house elves absolutely don't like what Hermione is doing, but she still keeps it up.
If all this occurred over one year, and then Hermione learned from it that she needed to approach the house elves completely differently, I'd feel differently about what Hermione did. After all, she's a teenager and can certainly make mistakes. But she doesn't seem to be learning from her mistakes.
I don't want to get into the Marietta question, but I did note in HBP that when Hermione activated the coins to call the former DA members, the large majority of the members had either quit carrying their coins (meaning they weren't planning to continue with the DA), or just disregarded the call. The loyal few did continue to carry their coins, so it doesn't seem just coincidence that those certain few were the ones who still carried them, while everyone else just happened to think the DA was disbanded, or lost their coins, or whatever other purely coincidental reason of not answering the coin. We aren't told why the other members had apparently lost their commitment to the DA, but I wonder how much it was affected by learning that Hermione had secretly put a hex on the list they signed, thereby binding them magically without their knowledge. It's another case of "Hermione knows best" that other people can really resent, even if they don't in general disagree with the overall intent (of protecting the DA from informers).
I often feel like Hermione doesn't see her faults at all. I was so amazed at her berating Harry about supposedly using the Felix potion to give Ron good luck in a Quidditch game, when she herself had only shortly before used magic to make sure Ron's tryout went better than McLaggen's. It's like she had no sense of the hypocrisy of her attitude. One would think she'd be embarrassed to criticize Harry so much when she was well aware that Harry knew what she'd done during the tryouts. But no, she didn't appear to even think of it.
TheSaint - May 28, 2007 9:34 pm (#2139 of 2486)
wynnleaf - We aren't told why the other members had apparently lost their commitment to the DA, but I wonder how much it was affected by learning that Hermione had secretly put a hex on the list they signed, thereby binding them magically without their knowledge. It's another case of "Hermione knows best" that other people can really resent, even if they don't in general disagree with the overall intent (of protecting the DA from informers).
What about the 'Ernie, do you really think I'd leave that list lying around?' She proceeds to tack it to the wall of the ROR - seems to be lying around to me - and then Umbridge gets ahold of all of their names. Might give a person reason to think they should not continue, as the leaders are not so competent.
But, even Harry declares the DA unnecessary in the start of 6th year, and then wants to call on them at the end of the year. I always found that a bit strange.
Mrs Brisbee - May 29, 2007 7:14 am (#2140 of 2486)
Like Wynnleaf, I too wondered if Hermione's jinx and careless treatment of the Parchment would lead to members of the DA being wary of her, but nothing really seems to have come of it. I think TheSaint is right, and the DA dissolved because of the disinterest of its leaders. Umbridge was gone from the school, and Harry in particular seems to have little interest in DADA once Snape was made DADA professor.
Soul Search - May 29, 2007 8:00 am (#2141 of 2486)
wynnleaf,
Good characterization of our favorite know-it-all.
I think we see the same thing in smaller ways, like the "Homework Diarys" in OotP.
I hadn't thought of DA members fearing their coins, or Hermione, but I think you may have something there.
Choices - May 29, 2007 6:02 pm (#2142 of 2486)
Wynnleaf - "Apparently, the rest of Gryffindor House "gets it" that the house elves absolutely don't like what Hermione is doing, but she still keeps it up."
I may be mistaken, but I didn't get the impression that the rest of Gryffindor House cared one way or the other about house elf rights. I think it was only Harry who knew that Hermione was trying to "trick" them because Dobby told him he was taking the hats and things Hermione left around because the other house elfs resented it and refused to clean the Gryffindor area.
Wynnleaf - "....when she herself had only shortly before used magic to make sure Ron's tryout went better than McLaggen's."
This is nit-picky I know, but I don't think Hermione really had any control over how Ron's try-out went. She used magic on McLaggen and he did not do well, but Ron could have completely blown it and been even worse than McLaggen. She may have given Ron an edge, but it was then up to Ron to out-perform McLaggen.
wynnleaf - May 29, 2007 6:19 pm (#2143 of 2486)
As regards the house elves in Gryffindor, all of Gryffindor knew of Hermione's SPEW project. Surely people were bound to wonder about the hats, right? And absolutely they must have noticed that the elves wouldn't clean there anymore. This is a dorm, after all. Of course it got around exactly why the elves stopped cleaning.
Now about the Quidditch tryouts. Yes, Ron tried his best, but he didn't have to outperform McLaggen at his best. So the tryouts weren't fair because Ron's best might not have been up to McLaggen's best, and McLaggen wasn't given the chance to show that. Hermione cheated to give Ron a better chance in the tryouts, but berated Harry for supposedly giving Ron a better chance in a game.
Choices - May 29, 2007 6:40 pm (#2144 of 2486)
Wynnleaf - "As regards the house elves in Gryffindor, all of Gryffindor knew of Hermione's SPEW project. Surely people were bound to wonder about the hats, right? And absolutely they must have noticed that the elves wouldn't clean there anymore. This is a dorm, after all. Of course it got around exactly why the elves stopped cleaning."
I agree the kids knew about S.P.E.W., but they certainly were not interested in it. I doubt they even noticed about the cleaning because Dobby did it all himself and removed the hats each night. We are told that Dobby revealed to Harry that the other house elfs wouldn't clean Gryffindor because they resented the hats hidden about. It is possible that the other kids knew, but we are not told specifically that they did. It is just conjecture on our part.
rambkowalczyk - May 30, 2007 4:07 am (#2145 of 2486)
I tend to agree with Choices. Kids are oblivious to housework getting done or mot getting done. They may have noticed hats/socks lying around and thought nothing of it. Hermione could have even stated what she was doing out loud and been ignored by most of the students.
wynnleaf - May 30, 2007 4:36 am (#2146 of 2486)
Kids are oblivious to housework getting done or mot getting done. They may have noticed hats/socks lying around and thought nothing of it. Hermione could have even stated what she was doing out loud and been ignored by most of the students. (rambkowalczyk)
Well, I disagree that most students would be completely unaware of what Hermione was doing or the house elves disapproval. But that really isn't important to the point, which is that Hermione continues to attempt methods of forcing the house elves to accept freedom and over a period of years does not learn that this is counterproductive. Hermione isn't learning from her mistakes, nor even learning that they are mistakes.
As regards dealing with others, or her particular brand of self-righteousness (which JKR has openly admitted), Hermione has not grown and developed. She hasn't learned anything in this area, that I can see.
Die Zimtzicke - May 30, 2007 12:38 pm (#2147 of 2486)
What I can't understand is, it was not Hermione that tied the house elves to Hogwarts in the first place, and she certainly did not own them in any sense of the word. How was her hiding clothes for them too pick up supposed to free them? We know they can handle clothes, because they do ironing and laundry. Hermione was not their owner GIVING them clothes in any direct way. I don't think she freed anyone. I think she just hacked them off, with the exception of Dobby, who was the only elf not insulted by the gesture.
I don't think she knew what she was doing, frankly.
Lina - May 30, 2007 2:33 pm (#2148 of 2486)
Your point, Die Z, makes sense. But weather she was able to set them free or not, she was trying to do that against their will. It is really possible that they refused to clean the Griffindor tower because they were insulted rather than because they were afraid to be freed.
Die Zimtzicke - May 30, 2007 3:01 pm (#2149 of 2486)
I honestly think that is the case. She insulted them by trying to trick them. If it were as easy as them just picking up clothes, they wouldn't be able to iron and we know Ron's mother wanted one to do the ironing at one point, and that Dobby ironed his hands to punish himself, so presumably he was allowed to handle an iron.
That wasn't very bright of Hermione. If she really read up on them, she should have realized that their master has to directly present them with clothes somehow, which is what I think happens. It makes no sense to have them just be able to pick up clothes and be freed. Malfoy tossed the sock to Dobby in the book. Dobby didn't just pick up a sock lying around. It just was NOT one of Hermione's brighter ideas to leave hats lying around, in my opinion.
journeymom - May 30, 2007 3:17 pm (#2150 of 2486)
That's a really great point, Die Zim.
Catherine - May 30, 2007 3:36 pm (#2151 of 2486)
I honestly think that is the case. She insulted them by trying to trick them. If it were as easy as them just picking up clothes, they wouldn't be able to iron and we know Ron's mother wanted one to do the ironing at one point, and that Dobby ironed his hands to punish himself, so presumably he was allowed to handle an iron.
You already stated the point about intent. Intent is key here. Hermione intended to free them by default, or to free them by a subterfuge, as Harry freed Dobby. Dobby's intent, was toward freedom, and I conclude that he ultimately wished to be freed (given the extraordinary efforts he made to advise Harry of both his mistreatment and his desire to help Harry Potter). The majority of elves at Hogwarts, if our narration is correct, do not follow Dobby's example, and thus their wishes do not follow Hermione's efforts toward their (possible) freedom.
wynnleaf - May 30, 2007 5:10 pm (#2152 of 2486)
It is really possible that they refused to clean the Griffindor tower because they were insulted rather than because they were afraid to be freed. (Lina)
I agree. I don't see how Hermione could free a Hogwarts elf, any more than Harry could free Dobby. Harry had to trick Lucius into freeing Dobby, because only a Malfoy had that ability.
I'm curious to see if we get any real growth from Hermione in this area in DH. I don't mean so much the house elf thing specifically, but her self-righteousness and knowing what's best for everybody else. Since this is something JKR has acknowledged, but hasn't really changed in 6 books (at least, I don't think she's had Hermione change in this area), I hope JKR has Hermione grow some in this area in DH.
Maybe it's too much to accomplish in one book.
Rosie Lu - May 30, 2007 7:01 pm (#2153 of 2486)
One thing I'm looking forward to in DH is the House-Elf issue, which many of you are already discussing. I think Jo said something about them causing her some issues (in a playful way) when writing DH, so hopefully we'll get some good resolution there. We already know that Hermione's issue with the elves was a plot point Rowling didn't intended to be as big as it was (I think she said something about Hermione running with that plot more than she intended
, but it'll still be interesting, especially with that elf-looking creature on the cover of DH. Mediwitch - May 30, 2007 7:20 pm (#2154 of 2486)
Since Jo has commented that so much of Hermione is based on herself, I wonder if Hermione's development will parallel Jo's perception of her own growth in regards to her self-righteous swottiness.
Lina - May 30, 2007 9:54 pm (#2155 of 2486)
You know, Hermione is not stupid at all. I wonder if this her mistake of believing that she could actually set Hogwarts house elves free, has some additional meaning? Is it just because she was a Muggle born that she didn't understand the concept of house elves or is there more to it? George and Fred tried to explain her that house elves are happy doing the house work, but we don't see them explaining her that she is not able to give them freedom. Maybe that's what they just thought was more important to explain which I think is true.
I find that her slower development in thinking that she knows what is best for everybody is appropriate for her age in the books. Another example of JKR portraying people realistically.
My Mum has a saying that a stupid person can see better their own problems than a clever person can see other people's problems.
journeymom - May 30, 2007 10:23 pm (#2156 of 2486)
I'm curious to see if we get any real growth from Hermione in this area in DH. I don't mean so much the house elf thing specifically, but her self-righteousness and knowing what's best for everybody else. Since this is something JKR has acknowledged, but hasn't really changed in 6 books (at least, I don't think she's had Hermione change in this area), I hope JKR has Hermione grow some in this area in DH.
One small example of maturation on Hermione's part- in PoA somebody's bunny dies, and supposedly Trelawney predicted it. Hermione treats whomever owned the bunny rather cruelly, when she bluntly points out how illogical it is to think that Trelawney predicted it.
In OotP? or is it HBP? Luna explains another of her outlandish theories. (This scene was wonderfully done.) Hermione looked like she was going to challenge Luna, struggled with herself for a moment and said kindly, 'That's fascinating, Luna.'
I was so like this when I was a kid. I corrected people, because they were wrong, and somebody has to make the correction, right? No finesse, not subtlety, just- 'No, that's wrong, this is the way it is.' I was completely oblivious to the fact that others might be offended or hurt by my bluntness! And it took me longer than it took Hermione to figure out that correcting people doesn't win you social points!
Solitaire - May 30, 2007 10:52 pm (#2157 of 2486)
I agree that Hermione's efforts are not a lack of intelligence. She is very bright, as we have been told, and she has a great deal of knowledge and information. She does, however, lack wisdom in some areas. That is something that can only come with age and experience. Like Lina's mom, I think it may be more difficult for a Mensa-type personality like Hermione to see flaws in her own logic. This will probably be the area where we see her grow the most ... I hope.
Solitaire
Luna Logic - May 31, 2007 4:59 am (#2158 of 2486)
Bright observations and post, Journeymom - I share your experience of life ! And I agree.
As Solitaire says, "Hermione lacks wisdom in some areas". Could we say then that those areas are social areas? As Luna (but less !), she lacks of some social skills. But, unlike Luna, Hermione is learning... And that makes her a great character.
Die Zimtzicke - May 31, 2007 8:07 am (#2159 of 2486)
I would agree, except Hermoine usually bases everything she believes in on books. She got books and studied the house elf issue. Wouldn't it have said somewhere that their owner has to free them? She must have thought she was powerful enough to circumvent that, either that, or she didn't study the issue way she normally does, because she was stuck on her preconceived notions.
Jenniffler - May 31, 2007 8:31 am (#2160 of 2486)
I've got a suggestion about why Hermione started knitting. She would nevere admit she would reconcile her house-elf subordination to wizards. Knitting seems to be an attempt to reach out to them, but I think (and this is a what if..?) she might have been filling her rare free time with activity because she is limited in her capacity to help them. She either researches or she worries. Knitting is a nice change.
Also she knits because it is old fashioned, pattern-based, tangible and reliable(just like books.)Dumbledore loves a good pattern (stalling in the old lady's restroom.)These two facts suggest to me that Ms. Rowling might, in fact, knit. It is a great way to keep busy and productive without being too cerebral.
(If only I could sit for long or remember to count, I too would probably pick up the needles.)
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journeymom - May 31, 2007 10:23 am (#2161 of 2486)
She either researches or she worries. Knitting is a nice change. You mean she knits instead of smoking cigarettes? I'm joking, but it's notable that JKR's web site desk top is littered with gum wrappers. She quit smoking and took up chewing gum. And that's a neat connection between Hermione's knitting and Dumbledore's love of a good pattern.
Mrs Brisbee - May 31, 2007 10:31 am (#2162 of 2486)
Must mean something good that Hermione's knitting started to improve didn't Ron say that her stuff looked like wooly bladders at first?
Choices - May 31, 2007 5:55 pm (#2163 of 2486)
Since "knitting" or knots symbolize unity, maybe Hermione knitting the hats represents her desire to mend the rift between wizards and house-elfs and bring unity/harmony to the relationship between them.
Mrs Brisbee - May 31, 2007 6:53 pm (#2164 of 2486)
I like that, Choices. She has the right idea, but as Ron notes she's not good at it to start with. But she improves. I don't think she will solve the elves' lot anytime soon, but it looks like a good future career for Hermione.
Solitaire - May 31, 2007 8:26 pm (#2165 of 2486)
Hermione did research the House-elf issue in books, but this may the thing that helps her understand that sometimes, not all answers can be found in books. She has observed Kreacher extensively, but he does not seem to be a typical House-Elf. Unless it has occurred "off camera," she has never really talked with any House-Elves about any of her concerns and efforts. A smart girl like Hermione should soon realize that she must involve the Elves themselves if she wants to make any headway. Not talking to the Elves about their situation is treating them like children ... and disrespecting them. JM2K, of course ...
Solitaire
Lina - May 31, 2007 9:49 pm (#2166 of 2486)
Oh, I like that comparison, choices!
Bible Spice - Jun 1, 2007 8:35 pm (#2167 of 2486)
What I think is extraordinary about Hermione, and perhaps it is because is from the Muggle world, is that she recognizes slavery as such when everyone in the wizarding world is happy to turn a blind eye while saying,"Well, they *like* being slaves." The Weasley twins say something to this effect. Lots of people do, but Hermione is never swayed. *This* is courage, even if she is not savvy about how to build a liberation movement, as I suspect most 14-year olds are not so savvy.
Dobby himself referred to his pillow case as the symbol of his "enslavement." Kreacher, however dementedly, is devoted to his "family", but he is *not* free to serve them as he wishes. He is bound to serve at Hogwarts, because Harry has ordered him, too.
Unfortunately, Hermione like many other good-hearted liberals (myself included!) can forget the social and psychological complexity of slavery and oppression in general. The devil you know is often more appealing than the devil you don't. No, Winky does not want to be freed, but I would not describe her as happy with the Crouches. All of the elves we know by name were/are in bad situations as slaves. I don't think that's an accident.
I like to think, although I do not know (and neither would Hermione), that the Hogwarts elves work there by choice, because Dumbledore gave them the option. I will be interested to see whether this question is resolved in Book 7.
As I have stated before on this thread, my hope for Hermione's future is that she will survive and take her considerable intellect into jurisprudence where she can do something of real value for the house-elves.
MickeyCee3948 - Jun 1, 2007 9:11 pm (#2168 of 2486)
I have tried to stay out of this discussion for quite some time. But I have a couple of questions and comments. Some of which may ruffle some feathers.
Why does Hermione feel she has to save the house elves from their current situations? She was not raised around house elves. Other than Dobby, Kreacher and Winky she has had only casual contact with any house elves. She never saw Dobby mistreated. Winky was dismissed but was she really treated that horribly by her master. We get no indication that she was beaten, abused or taken advantage of. With the possible exception of being made to sit in a high box for the World Cup game.
Kreacher barely qualifies as a house elf given his age. The abuse that he received from Sirius was older than Hermione as Kreacher reminded Sirius of everything he hated about the Black family.
I just don't understand why some people such as Hermione in this case persist in trying to impose their opinions and beliefs on others. The house elves at Hogwarts all appear to be rather happy with their situation. Why change what isn't broken?
Hermione should stop trying to tell others what is good for them. She should stop trying to impose her beliefs and outlook on others who have not requested her help. She should mind her own business. JM2K's.
Mickey
Solitaire - Jun 1, 2007 9:41 pm (#2169 of 2486)
I honestly do not believe there is anything wrong with Hermione's intent. I believe she is genuinely trying to resolve a problem that most of the civilized world believes is wrong. Unfortunately, she lacks a complete understanding of the whole problem. In most cases, it is difficult to solve a puzzle if one is missing important pieces--and I believe Hermione is missing some key pieces here.
In addition, I wonder if she got the entire, clear sequence of events that occurred when Dobby was freed. Although it was Harry's sock that freed Dobby, it was Malfoy--not Harry--who cast the sock aside for Dobby to grab. Hermione is pretty smart, so I am having difficulty believing that she has forgotten that little detail, if she actually heard it. The fact that she keeps putting out the clothing for the House-Elves to find makes me wonder if she knows for certain that she can free the House-Elves. Since they obviously take orders from any student at Hogwarts, is it possible that the kids have the power to free them? This is seems like a fairly basic point that Hermione would not flub if she had all the info.
I'm trying to stick to Hermione here and not focus on the House-Elf issue. I suppose we should go to the House-Elf thread if we want to focus on that rather than Hermione. I don't want to get kipendoed ... or however it is spelled.
Solitaire
Die Zimtzicke - Jun 2, 2007 6:12 am (#2170 of 2486)
What bothers me about the attempts by Hermoione to free the elves by trickery was always the fact that it took Dobby a year of wandering to find a job. What would all of those elves have done if they had been freed by picking up her hats? Did she give any thought to them suddenly being homeless and jobless due to her deceit? They could have all starved. They'd have been free, but wihtout any resources. That's wrong. That's why I refuse to believe it worked, aside from the problems we've already discussed with her being able to free them.
Solitaire - Jun 2, 2007 9:30 am (#2171 of 2486)
Die, I've answered you here, on the House-Elf thread, since my answer focuses more on the House-Elves than on Hermione.
Solitaire
Martha S - Jul 12, 2007 6:25 am (#2172 of 2486)
In OOP Harry and Ron chose Aurors for their NEWT studies and future careers. I seem to remember Hermione going back and forth between several choices. Did she ever settle on one? If not, doesn't that make her a little unstable as far as the "who dies list"? Almost like maybe JKR didn't feel the need to have her make a decision because she wasn't going to have a future. I'm at work, so I can't check my books and could very easily be wrong. Anyone know?
Mediwitch - Jul 12, 2007 7:57 am (#2173 of 2486)
I don't think we were ever told of Hermione's career choice. She said she wanted to do "something worthwhile" and wished she could take S.P.E.W. further. While that's not a definite direction, it is a lofty goal. I'm not sure that it will impact her position on the "who dies" list.
Choices - Jul 12, 2007 9:46 am (#2174 of 2486)
Harry and Ron did voice that they would like to be Aurors, but I don't think it was a hard and fast decision.....at least for Ron. I think it just appealed to them both at the moment, but they may possibly change their minds when they are of age and out in the "real" world.
Mediwitch - Jul 12, 2007 10:50 am (#2175 of 2486)
I agree, Choices. Not many teenagers (or adults) really know what they want to do for a career. It wouldn't surprise me if Ron & Harry make different career choices (assuming they live! ), nor did it surprise me that Hermione didn't make a distinct choice at 15 or 16.
legolas returns - Jul 12, 2007 12:48 pm (#2176 of 2486)
If they dont go back and get some Newts the choices that they have available for a career may be slightly restricted.
Solitaire - Jul 12, 2007 7:28 pm (#2177 of 2486)
Perhaps they will go back after Voldy is gone ... or maybe--if they rid the world of Voldemort once and for all--they might be given a free pass! Who knows?
Solitaire
Padfoot - Jul 15, 2007 11:00 pm (#2178 of 2486)
You know how people were talkin about how the Ron/Hermione thing happening, its probably true because in HBP she gets sad when she finds Ron kissing Lavender and when Ron and Lavender break up, she's all happy, theres lots of proof that she likes Ron
Solitaire - Jul 15, 2007 11:26 pm (#2179 of 2486)
Oh, I think it is a pretty safe bet that they will end up together ... if they stay alive.
Padfoot - Jul 16, 2007 6:38 am (#2180 of 2486)
Yer because you can see how they interact with eachother. But they might not stay alive if Voldemort decides to take all of the Weasleys and Hermione and (im just imaging this) the dursleys, they might end up dying
Padfoot - Jul 16, 2007 6:44 am (#2181 of 2486)
Edited by Denise P. Jul 16, 2007 1:49 pm
And also you might think that its a 20 out of 100 percent chance that shs got a thing 4 for Harry because they always seem 2 to get along and because they compliment ach other sometimes eg. in SS she says that harry is much more talented than herself because she only studies out of books while he's got a lot of courage which many people dont have
Edit Please be sure to not use netspeak when posting. Denise P.
sstabeler - Jul 17, 2007 1:07 pm (#2182 of 2486)
Padfoot, JKR has said, in as many words, that it's Ron/Hermione. harery is juts friends with Hermione. aftre all, can you imagine Ginny's fury if her best fried and confidant started going out with her crush? second only to the wrath of a woman scorned...........
Vox Gerbilis - Jul 21, 2007 6:47 pm (#2183 of 2486)
NO SPOILERS CONTAINED HEREIN
Yesterday, I came up with one final Hermione prediction, but I did not have the opportunity to post before the Predictions board was closed. I hope I'm not out of line to put it here. It's not a serious prediction, but that should be obvious. Here goes:
After the final events of Book 7 are wrapped up, Hermione embarks on a literary career. Her series about a witch who uses her expertise in ancient languages, ancient runes, and arithmency to fight dark magic is a runaway success, beginning with Book 1, Harriet Porter and the Philologist's Rosetta Stone. Unfortunately, the best magical and non-magical security measures can't prevent premature leaks of plot developments before the official release time; hence, Hermione must resort to extreme measures: all persons who open the book before the approved time end up with SNEAK written in pimples across the forehead.
Solitaire - Jul 22, 2007 11:49 am (#2184 of 2486)
LOL Vox! Don't you wish SPOILER would be written in pimples across the faces of everyone who posts spoilers? Or perhaps they should have to write with The Quill (you know which one I mean) ... "I will not post spoilers!" 100 times.
That ought to do it!
Solitaire
MickeyCee3948 - Jul 22, 2007 12:14 pm (#2185 of 2486)
Watch it Soli, that sounds alot like our little pink toad type of punishment.
Mickey
Solitaire - Jul 22, 2007 6:00 pm (#2186 of 2486)
hehe I always say ... let the punishment fit the crime!
Mrs Brisbee - Oct 18, 2007 5:18 am (#2187 of 2486)
Something has been bothering me about Hermione. In DH, she rewrites her parents memories and sends them to Australia. It just really bothers me that she seems to have done this without their permission. She wants to keep them safe and happy, but what right does she have to steal their life to keep them alive? Why couldn't they be protected without such a drastic invasion of their right to self?
Mrs. Sirius - Oct 18, 2007 6:10 am (#2188 of 2486)
Who said they didn't consent?
In POA Aunt Madge's memory is erased of the incident but the Dursley's aren't. I always wondered "why didn't the Ministry just make the Dursley's forget that too". I think they were asked and chose to not have their memories modified.
I figured Hermione explained to her parent's the situation, explained she would be hidden and safe, and gave them a choice of options.
In GoF Bertha Jorkin's memory is first modified by Mr. Crouch and then again her memories are scrambled with by Voldemort. Ultimately, it proves to be too much for her and she dies, but minds and memories can be modified on several levels. Also in GOF, the memory modification on Mr. Roberts seem to be causing lasting effects (or something to that effect).
I want Hermione's beaded bag!
Mrs Brisbee - Oct 18, 2007 7:27 am (#2189 of 2486)
Who doesn't want Hermione's beaded bag?
There is nothing to indicate that Hermione's parents gave up their lives and minds willingly. This is what bothers me, because who would consent to having all their memories altered? Not just assuming another identity, but having it ingrained into the mind and the real past-- the memories of real friends and family-- removed? It just doesn't strike me as anything a real person would consent to.
TwinklingBlueEyes - Oct 18, 2007 6:07 pm (#2190 of 2486)
Methinks that it is just something that JKR didn't think through all the possible responses to. After all, 'tis a work of fiction, not "real life".
...toddles off elsewhere reminding self, 'tis just a story...
Solitaire - Oct 18, 2007 8:50 pm (#2191 of 2486)
Mrs. Brisbee, I drag a medium-sized Healthy Back Bag full of junk that I really do have to have each day ... and it STILL hurts my shoulder and back. Hermione's bag would be a dream come true! I'm on the waiting list!
Solitaire
wynnleaf - Oct 19, 2007 6:40 am (#2192 of 2486)
I don't imagine she asked their consent. Nothing in the book says she did. And what parents would consent to having their memories of their only child erased, so that if she happened to have been killed they would never remember her? The reason Hermione erased their memories wasn't so much to protect them (that was why she sent them to Australia), but so that they would be happy not remembering her and so that she could invent memories for them and send them off to Australia none the wiser to the fact that their only child's life was in danger.
Further, we later have Hermione admitting that her experience with memory charms is limited at best. Which means that Hermione took it upon herself to basically take over her parents lives, risk permanently removing some of their most precious memories, and all why? For her own convenience so that she wouldn't have to worry about them. Are they not adults? Couldn't they make those decisions on their own?
Even the Dursleys were given the choice to decide whether to go into hiding or not. Hermione, in an action quite in character by the way, doesn't bother to ask her parents or give them a choice. Even with the same opportunities open as the Dursleys, Hermione simply decides she knows what's best and removes this important decision from her parents.
Hogwarts Class of 85 - Oct 19, 2007 6:40 am (#2193 of 2486)
By having their memories modified, the Grangers are protecting Hermione as much as she is protecting them. If they just had their identities changed and were captured with their memories in tact, they may inadvertently (or under torture) reveal information about Hermione's whereabouts or some other information that would help a death eater to locate and kill her. Without their memory, that would be less of a possibility. I can easily see why a parent would agree to that to help to protect their only child's life.
wynnleaf - Oct 19, 2007 6:44 am (#2194 of 2486)
They didn't necessarily have to know anything about where she was. If Hermione didn't tell them her whereabouts there'd be nothing to pass along under torture.
And they could have hidden in Australia just as well with their memories as without them.
If DEs had actually gone looking for them and found them in Australia, having their memories modified wasn't going to protect them. It clearly wasn't supposed to be irreversible, so what Hermione could undo, so could a skilled Death Eater or Voldemort.
No, the memory charm was protecting no one. What the memory charm did was enable Hermione to get them to move to Australia and take on a new life without any argument -- without her having to convince them of anything.
Mrs Brisbee - Oct 19, 2007 6:54 am (#2195 of 2486)
I don't see anything in the books that would indicate a memory charm prevents torture. Bertha Jorkens revealed information hidden under a powerful memory charm before being murdered by Voldemort. So the memories are still there for those with magical powers to find. I think new identities and the move to Australia makes sense, but if ever the Death Eaters tracked them down the memory charms would be useless as protection for them and the people they held information about. I think wynnleaf might be right and it was more for Hermione's convenience. I can't think of a parent who would want the memories of their only child erased forever.
PeskyPixie - Oct 19, 2007 8:47 am (#2196 of 2486)
It's funny, we make excuses for Draco's mistakes due to his youth, but Hermione is the same age and we judge her as an adult (yes, yes, legally she is, but she's still a teenager who's inexperienced in regular life ... gosh you really have to word these things well as there's always someone waiting for a loophole in your argument!).
Hermione does not yet understand how a parent feels for their child. She acts quite bravely for what she believes is her family's safety, but for all her skill and intelligence she is still very young. Many male HP characters have done far worse deeds influenced by the follies of youth.
Solitaire - Oct 19, 2007 8:03 pm (#2197 of 2486)
they could have hidden in Australia just as well with their memories as without them.
Since Australia is hardly out of Voldemort's reach, I agree that it would be a lot safer for them to hide with no memories and different identities. If they did not have memories of Hermione and her being a witch, then Voldy--should he have had the desire to do so--could never use legilimency on them. While I am not sure I agree with her actions, I do understand her reasoning. Hermione knew her parents wnd would have known what, if anything (loss of a child, perhaps?), might be difficult for them to handle. Perhaps she acted on that knowledge.
Solitaire
wynnleaf - Oct 19, 2007 8:42 pm (#2198 of 2486)
I'm not sure whether LV could have done legilimency on them or not. We do know that such a spell isn't irreversible and therefore LV or some other skilled Death Eater could have gotten any info out of them that they knew, Hermione's memory spell not withstanding. Hermione's spell did no good insofar as protecting any secrets her parents might know.
As far as I can think of, the only reason to do such a spell, since it couldn't protect any secrets her parents might have, would be to induce them to move to Australia with no argument.
legolas returns - Oct 20, 2007 1:40 am (#2199 of 2486)
It got them as far away from danger as was possible. Giving them the wish that they wanted to go to Australia made them go. How would Voldemort know where they went if he sent death eaters to check up on the old family home? It seems a long way to go to get information.
PeskyPixie - Oct 20, 2007 2:03 pm (#2200 of 2486)
I wouldn't be surprised if, by the 1990s, there are small but growing Death Eater-esque movements in many countries around the world ... but this doesn't really belong on this thread, does it?
Solitaire - Oct 20, 2007 6:11 pm (#2201 of 2486)
Pesky, the DEs have always reminded me of the Nazi SS, but I have to confess they are also a lot like today's modern terrorists. Surely there are DEs, or their equivalent, in all countries of the Potterverse. However, Hermione may never have been a figure of interest until this point, so perhaps Voldy and the DEs never had any interest in her parents. If she sent them away with modified memories and no knowledge of her, it would, indeed, be more difficult to locate them. There would be no passport records showing their entry into Australia. It would be more like they'd simply dropped off the face of the earth. It must have been hard on their friends and patients, however. Surely there was a search for them in the Muggle world.
Solitaire
Michael Franz - Oct 28, 2007 8:29 pm (#2202 of 2486)
I knew that Voldemort would have no interest in Hermione or her parents because he's a monomaniac -- for him, everything is about that Potter boy. However, Lucius Malfoy is another matter. He's had to put up with Draco's rantings about "that Mudblood" for years, so he knows full well she's one of Harry's best friends.
I fully expected Lucius to attack Hermione's house in Book 6. Of course, that would mean that Hermione's parents would actually have been *in* book 6, which JK would *never* do. I actually think JK only gave Hermione parents in the first place because Harry was already an orphan. The fact that the *Dursleys* get more respect than the Grangers really ticks me off.
Vox Gerbilis - Oct 31, 2007 6:25 pm (#2203 of 2486)
I hope I'm not posting this on the wrong board. It pertains to Hermione, but more generally to all the muggle-born Hogwarts students. For all of Dumbledore's championing of muggle rights, his administration has very little regard for the parental rights of muggle parents. How much do they even know about what goes on at Hogwarts? Why weren't Hermione's parents notified when she was petrified in CoS? It's no wonder that Hermione seems to have no scruples about spending her vacations at school or the Burrow, or modifying her parents' memories. As Michael Franz commented, it does seem that the Dursleys get more respect. They at least get some information about what's going on with Harry.
Meoshimo - Oct 31, 2007 6:37 pm (#2204 of 2486)
Well, the Grangers were in an earlier book.
Michael Franz - Oct 31, 2007 7:18 pm (#2205 of 2486)
Well, the Grangers were in an earlier book.
(Clinton) That would depend on what the meaning of "in" is. (/Clinton)
Hermione's parents met Mr. and Mrs. Weasley when they went to Diagon Alley in Chamber of Secrets, but they did not have any lines, or, indeed, any first names. I hope neither one of them owns a red shirt!
How much do they even know about what goes on at Hogwarts?
Absolutely nothing. Remember, in Order of the Phoenix, Dean Thomas says his parents are Muggles and they don't know about any deaths at Hogwarts because he's not stupid enough to tell them.
Of course, if Dolohov had managed to kill Hermione in the Department of Mysteries, one can only imagine how Dumbledore would have handled that bit of news.
"Hermione's missing? My word! We'll send out search parties right away!" -- "Severus, you know what to do." -- "I'll prepare the lye bath and dissolve the body at once, Headmaster."
Mrs. Sirius - Oct 31, 2007 10:23 pm (#2206 of 2486)
The Dursleys are a different matter. Remember Pet wanted to got to Hogwarts and managed to write to Dumbledore. Although I still don't understand DD's letter to Pet in OoTP, she has had interactions with the wizarding world. Plus all of the Durleys get protection courtesy from Voldemort of the wizarding world.
The Grangers are, I am sorry to say it, irrelevant. They are important only because they are pure muggles and Hermiones' parents. They bring nothing to the story. They could have been summoned when Hermione was attacked, a visit and conversation with DD "off camera" and still have decided to leave her at the school for best care. They certainly wouldn't have known what to do with a petrified child.
Moaning Myrtles' parents were summoned to Hogwarts when she was attacked. I believe we got a glimps of them in HBP.
Michael Franz - Nov 2, 2007 12:40 pm (#2207 of 2486)
The Grangers are, I am sorry to say it, irrelevant.
Well, of course they are! They're Muggles! As Grindelwald would say, Magie über Alles! The problem is, it's not just him who would say that. Despite their pretensions of Muggle equality, even the good wizards regard Muggles as little more than trained chimpanzees. Hermione says she's a "Mudblood, and proud of it," but at least subconsciously, she feels the same way. Since her parents couldn't possibly understand magic, they're nothing more than a burden to her. I've gone as far as to say that when Hermione modified their memories in Deathly Hallows, she was secretly glad to be rid of them.
legolas returns - Nov 2, 2007 1:11 pm (#2208 of 2486)
So why did she burst into tears after telling Harry what she had done. I dont think she was glad.
PeskyPixie - Nov 2, 2007 2:58 pm (#2209 of 2486)
Hermione loves her parents just fine. It was probably just too difficult to consistently work them into a story with an already huge cast of characters.
Luna Logic - Nov 3, 2007 9:03 am (#2210 of 2486)
IMO, Hermione loves her parents, but all the excitement of her life is at Hogwarts and in the WW.
She either researches or she worries. Knitting is a nice change. You mean she knits instead of smoking cigarettes? I'm joking, but it's notable that JKR's web site desk top is littered with gum wrappers. She quit smoking and took up chewing gum. And that's a neat connection between Hermione's knitting and Dumbledore's love of a good pattern.
Mrs Brisbee - May 31, 2007 10:31 am (#2162 of 2486)
Must mean something good that Hermione's knitting started to improve didn't Ron say that her stuff looked like wooly bladders at first?
Choices - May 31, 2007 5:55 pm (#2163 of 2486)
Since "knitting" or knots symbolize unity, maybe Hermione knitting the hats represents her desire to mend the rift between wizards and house-elfs and bring unity/harmony to the relationship between them.
Mrs Brisbee - May 31, 2007 6:53 pm (#2164 of 2486)
I like that, Choices. She has the right idea, but as Ron notes she's not good at it to start with. But she improves. I don't think she will solve the elves' lot anytime soon, but it looks like a good future career for Hermione.
Solitaire - May 31, 2007 8:26 pm (#2165 of 2486)
Hermione did research the House-elf issue in books, but this may the thing that helps her understand that sometimes, not all answers can be found in books. She has observed Kreacher extensively, but he does not seem to be a typical House-Elf. Unless it has occurred "off camera," she has never really talked with any House-Elves about any of her concerns and efforts. A smart girl like Hermione should soon realize that she must involve the Elves themselves if she wants to make any headway. Not talking to the Elves about their situation is treating them like children ... and disrespecting them. JM2K, of course ...
Solitaire
Lina - May 31, 2007 9:49 pm (#2166 of 2486)
Oh, I like that comparison, choices!
Bible Spice - Jun 1, 2007 8:35 pm (#2167 of 2486)
What I think is extraordinary about Hermione, and perhaps it is because is from the Muggle world, is that she recognizes slavery as such when everyone in the wizarding world is happy to turn a blind eye while saying,"Well, they *like* being slaves." The Weasley twins say something to this effect. Lots of people do, but Hermione is never swayed. *This* is courage, even if she is not savvy about how to build a liberation movement, as I suspect most 14-year olds are not so savvy.
Dobby himself referred to his pillow case as the symbol of his "enslavement." Kreacher, however dementedly, is devoted to his "family", but he is *not* free to serve them as he wishes. He is bound to serve at Hogwarts, because Harry has ordered him, too.
Unfortunately, Hermione like many other good-hearted liberals (myself included!) can forget the social and psychological complexity of slavery and oppression in general. The devil you know is often more appealing than the devil you don't. No, Winky does not want to be freed, but I would not describe her as happy with the Crouches. All of the elves we know by name were/are in bad situations as slaves. I don't think that's an accident.
I like to think, although I do not know (and neither would Hermione), that the Hogwarts elves work there by choice, because Dumbledore gave them the option. I will be interested to see whether this question is resolved in Book 7.
As I have stated before on this thread, my hope for Hermione's future is that she will survive and take her considerable intellect into jurisprudence where she can do something of real value for the house-elves.
MickeyCee3948 - Jun 1, 2007 9:11 pm (#2168 of 2486)
I have tried to stay out of this discussion for quite some time. But I have a couple of questions and comments. Some of which may ruffle some feathers.
Why does Hermione feel she has to save the house elves from their current situations? She was not raised around house elves. Other than Dobby, Kreacher and Winky she has had only casual contact with any house elves. She never saw Dobby mistreated. Winky was dismissed but was she really treated that horribly by her master. We get no indication that she was beaten, abused or taken advantage of. With the possible exception of being made to sit in a high box for the World Cup game.
Kreacher barely qualifies as a house elf given his age. The abuse that he received from Sirius was older than Hermione as Kreacher reminded Sirius of everything he hated about the Black family.
I just don't understand why some people such as Hermione in this case persist in trying to impose their opinions and beliefs on others. The house elves at Hogwarts all appear to be rather happy with their situation. Why change what isn't broken?
Hermione should stop trying to tell others what is good for them. She should stop trying to impose her beliefs and outlook on others who have not requested her help. She should mind her own business. JM2K's.
Mickey
Solitaire - Jun 1, 2007 9:41 pm (#2169 of 2486)
I honestly do not believe there is anything wrong with Hermione's intent. I believe she is genuinely trying to resolve a problem that most of the civilized world believes is wrong. Unfortunately, she lacks a complete understanding of the whole problem. In most cases, it is difficult to solve a puzzle if one is missing important pieces--and I believe Hermione is missing some key pieces here.
In addition, I wonder if she got the entire, clear sequence of events that occurred when Dobby was freed. Although it was Harry's sock that freed Dobby, it was Malfoy--not Harry--who cast the sock aside for Dobby to grab. Hermione is pretty smart, so I am having difficulty believing that she has forgotten that little detail, if she actually heard it. The fact that she keeps putting out the clothing for the House-Elves to find makes me wonder if she knows for certain that she can free the House-Elves. Since they obviously take orders from any student at Hogwarts, is it possible that the kids have the power to free them? This is seems like a fairly basic point that Hermione would not flub if she had all the info.
I'm trying to stick to Hermione here and not focus on the House-Elf issue. I suppose we should go to the House-Elf thread if we want to focus on that rather than Hermione. I don't want to get kipendoed ... or however it is spelled.
Solitaire
Die Zimtzicke - Jun 2, 2007 6:12 am (#2170 of 2486)
What bothers me about the attempts by Hermoione to free the elves by trickery was always the fact that it took Dobby a year of wandering to find a job. What would all of those elves have done if they had been freed by picking up her hats? Did she give any thought to them suddenly being homeless and jobless due to her deceit? They could have all starved. They'd have been free, but wihtout any resources. That's wrong. That's why I refuse to believe it worked, aside from the problems we've already discussed with her being able to free them.
Solitaire - Jun 2, 2007 9:30 am (#2171 of 2486)
Die, I've answered you here, on the House-Elf thread, since my answer focuses more on the House-Elves than on Hermione.
Solitaire
Martha S - Jul 12, 2007 6:25 am (#2172 of 2486)
In OOP Harry and Ron chose Aurors for their NEWT studies and future careers. I seem to remember Hermione going back and forth between several choices. Did she ever settle on one? If not, doesn't that make her a little unstable as far as the "who dies list"? Almost like maybe JKR didn't feel the need to have her make a decision because she wasn't going to have a future. I'm at work, so I can't check my books and could very easily be wrong. Anyone know?
Mediwitch - Jul 12, 2007 7:57 am (#2173 of 2486)
I don't think we were ever told of Hermione's career choice. She said she wanted to do "something worthwhile" and wished she could take S.P.E.W. further. While that's not a definite direction, it is a lofty goal. I'm not sure that it will impact her position on the "who dies" list.
Choices - Jul 12, 2007 9:46 am (#2174 of 2486)
Harry and Ron did voice that they would like to be Aurors, but I don't think it was a hard and fast decision.....at least for Ron. I think it just appealed to them both at the moment, but they may possibly change their minds when they are of age and out in the "real" world.
Mediwitch - Jul 12, 2007 10:50 am (#2175 of 2486)
I agree, Choices. Not many teenagers (or adults) really know what they want to do for a career. It wouldn't surprise me if Ron & Harry make different career choices (assuming they live! ), nor did it surprise me that Hermione didn't make a distinct choice at 15 or 16.
legolas returns - Jul 12, 2007 12:48 pm (#2176 of 2486)
If they dont go back and get some Newts the choices that they have available for a career may be slightly restricted.
Solitaire - Jul 12, 2007 7:28 pm (#2177 of 2486)
Perhaps they will go back after Voldy is gone ... or maybe--if they rid the world of Voldemort once and for all--they might be given a free pass! Who knows?
Solitaire
Padfoot - Jul 15, 2007 11:00 pm (#2178 of 2486)
You know how people were talkin about how the Ron/Hermione thing happening, its probably true because in HBP she gets sad when she finds Ron kissing Lavender and when Ron and Lavender break up, she's all happy, theres lots of proof that she likes Ron
Solitaire - Jul 15, 2007 11:26 pm (#2179 of 2486)
Oh, I think it is a pretty safe bet that they will end up together ... if they stay alive.
Padfoot - Jul 16, 2007 6:38 am (#2180 of 2486)
Yer because you can see how they interact with eachother. But they might not stay alive if Voldemort decides to take all of the Weasleys and Hermione and (im just imaging this) the dursleys, they might end up dying
Padfoot - Jul 16, 2007 6:44 am (#2181 of 2486)
Edited by Denise P. Jul 16, 2007 1:49 pm
And also you might think that its a 20 out of 100 percent chance that shs got a thing 4 for Harry because they always seem 2 to get along and because they compliment ach other sometimes eg. in SS she says that harry is much more talented than herself because she only studies out of books while he's got a lot of courage which many people dont have
Edit Please be sure to not use netspeak when posting. Denise P.
sstabeler - Jul 17, 2007 1:07 pm (#2182 of 2486)
Padfoot, JKR has said, in as many words, that it's Ron/Hermione. harery is juts friends with Hermione. aftre all, can you imagine Ginny's fury if her best fried and confidant started going out with her crush? second only to the wrath of a woman scorned...........
Vox Gerbilis - Jul 21, 2007 6:47 pm (#2183 of 2486)
NO SPOILERS CONTAINED HEREIN
Yesterday, I came up with one final Hermione prediction, but I did not have the opportunity to post before the Predictions board was closed. I hope I'm not out of line to put it here. It's not a serious prediction, but that should be obvious. Here goes:
After the final events of Book 7 are wrapped up, Hermione embarks on a literary career. Her series about a witch who uses her expertise in ancient languages, ancient runes, and arithmency to fight dark magic is a runaway success, beginning with Book 1, Harriet Porter and the Philologist's Rosetta Stone. Unfortunately, the best magical and non-magical security measures can't prevent premature leaks of plot developments before the official release time; hence, Hermione must resort to extreme measures: all persons who open the book before the approved time end up with SNEAK written in pimples across the forehead.
Solitaire - Jul 22, 2007 11:49 am (#2184 of 2486)
LOL Vox! Don't you wish SPOILER would be written in pimples across the faces of everyone who posts spoilers? Or perhaps they should have to write with The Quill (you know which one I mean) ... "I will not post spoilers!" 100 times.
That ought to do it!
Solitaire
MickeyCee3948 - Jul 22, 2007 12:14 pm (#2185 of 2486)
Watch it Soli, that sounds alot like our little pink toad type of punishment.
Mickey
Solitaire - Jul 22, 2007 6:00 pm (#2186 of 2486)
hehe I always say ... let the punishment fit the crime!
Mrs Brisbee - Oct 18, 2007 5:18 am (#2187 of 2486)
Something has been bothering me about Hermione. In DH, she rewrites her parents memories and sends them to Australia. It just really bothers me that she seems to have done this without their permission. She wants to keep them safe and happy, but what right does she have to steal their life to keep them alive? Why couldn't they be protected without such a drastic invasion of their right to self?
Mrs. Sirius - Oct 18, 2007 6:10 am (#2188 of 2486)
Who said they didn't consent?
In POA Aunt Madge's memory is erased of the incident but the Dursley's aren't. I always wondered "why didn't the Ministry just make the Dursley's forget that too". I think they were asked and chose to not have their memories modified.
I figured Hermione explained to her parent's the situation, explained she would be hidden and safe, and gave them a choice of options.
In GoF Bertha Jorkin's memory is first modified by Mr. Crouch and then again her memories are scrambled with by Voldemort. Ultimately, it proves to be too much for her and she dies, but minds and memories can be modified on several levels. Also in GOF, the memory modification on Mr. Roberts seem to be causing lasting effects (or something to that effect).
I want Hermione's beaded bag!
Mrs Brisbee - Oct 18, 2007 7:27 am (#2189 of 2486)
Who doesn't want Hermione's beaded bag?
There is nothing to indicate that Hermione's parents gave up their lives and minds willingly. This is what bothers me, because who would consent to having all their memories altered? Not just assuming another identity, but having it ingrained into the mind and the real past-- the memories of real friends and family-- removed? It just doesn't strike me as anything a real person would consent to.
TwinklingBlueEyes - Oct 18, 2007 6:07 pm (#2190 of 2486)
Methinks that it is just something that JKR didn't think through all the possible responses to. After all, 'tis a work of fiction, not "real life".
...toddles off elsewhere reminding self, 'tis just a story...
Solitaire - Oct 18, 2007 8:50 pm (#2191 of 2486)
Mrs. Brisbee, I drag a medium-sized Healthy Back Bag full of junk that I really do have to have each day ... and it STILL hurts my shoulder and back. Hermione's bag would be a dream come true! I'm on the waiting list!
Solitaire
wynnleaf - Oct 19, 2007 6:40 am (#2192 of 2486)
I don't imagine she asked their consent. Nothing in the book says she did. And what parents would consent to having their memories of their only child erased, so that if she happened to have been killed they would never remember her? The reason Hermione erased their memories wasn't so much to protect them (that was why she sent them to Australia), but so that they would be happy not remembering her and so that she could invent memories for them and send them off to Australia none the wiser to the fact that their only child's life was in danger.
Further, we later have Hermione admitting that her experience with memory charms is limited at best. Which means that Hermione took it upon herself to basically take over her parents lives, risk permanently removing some of their most precious memories, and all why? For her own convenience so that she wouldn't have to worry about them. Are they not adults? Couldn't they make those decisions on their own?
Even the Dursleys were given the choice to decide whether to go into hiding or not. Hermione, in an action quite in character by the way, doesn't bother to ask her parents or give them a choice. Even with the same opportunities open as the Dursleys, Hermione simply decides she knows what's best and removes this important decision from her parents.
Hogwarts Class of 85 - Oct 19, 2007 6:40 am (#2193 of 2486)
By having their memories modified, the Grangers are protecting Hermione as much as she is protecting them. If they just had their identities changed and were captured with their memories in tact, they may inadvertently (or under torture) reveal information about Hermione's whereabouts or some other information that would help a death eater to locate and kill her. Without their memory, that would be less of a possibility. I can easily see why a parent would agree to that to help to protect their only child's life.
wynnleaf - Oct 19, 2007 6:44 am (#2194 of 2486)
They didn't necessarily have to know anything about where she was. If Hermione didn't tell them her whereabouts there'd be nothing to pass along under torture.
And they could have hidden in Australia just as well with their memories as without them.
If DEs had actually gone looking for them and found them in Australia, having their memories modified wasn't going to protect them. It clearly wasn't supposed to be irreversible, so what Hermione could undo, so could a skilled Death Eater or Voldemort.
No, the memory charm was protecting no one. What the memory charm did was enable Hermione to get them to move to Australia and take on a new life without any argument -- without her having to convince them of anything.
Mrs Brisbee - Oct 19, 2007 6:54 am (#2195 of 2486)
I don't see anything in the books that would indicate a memory charm prevents torture. Bertha Jorkens revealed information hidden under a powerful memory charm before being murdered by Voldemort. So the memories are still there for those with magical powers to find. I think new identities and the move to Australia makes sense, but if ever the Death Eaters tracked them down the memory charms would be useless as protection for them and the people they held information about. I think wynnleaf might be right and it was more for Hermione's convenience. I can't think of a parent who would want the memories of their only child erased forever.
PeskyPixie - Oct 19, 2007 8:47 am (#2196 of 2486)
It's funny, we make excuses for Draco's mistakes due to his youth, but Hermione is the same age and we judge her as an adult (yes, yes, legally she is, but she's still a teenager who's inexperienced in regular life ... gosh you really have to word these things well as there's always someone waiting for a loophole in your argument!).
Hermione does not yet understand how a parent feels for their child. She acts quite bravely for what she believes is her family's safety, but for all her skill and intelligence she is still very young. Many male HP characters have done far worse deeds influenced by the follies of youth.
Solitaire - Oct 19, 2007 8:03 pm (#2197 of 2486)
they could have hidden in Australia just as well with their memories as without them.
Since Australia is hardly out of Voldemort's reach, I agree that it would be a lot safer for them to hide with no memories and different identities. If they did not have memories of Hermione and her being a witch, then Voldy--should he have had the desire to do so--could never use legilimency on them. While I am not sure I agree with her actions, I do understand her reasoning. Hermione knew her parents wnd would have known what, if anything (loss of a child, perhaps?), might be difficult for them to handle. Perhaps she acted on that knowledge.
Solitaire
wynnleaf - Oct 19, 2007 8:42 pm (#2198 of 2486)
I'm not sure whether LV could have done legilimency on them or not. We do know that such a spell isn't irreversible and therefore LV or some other skilled Death Eater could have gotten any info out of them that they knew, Hermione's memory spell not withstanding. Hermione's spell did no good insofar as protecting any secrets her parents might know.
As far as I can think of, the only reason to do such a spell, since it couldn't protect any secrets her parents might have, would be to induce them to move to Australia with no argument.
legolas returns - Oct 20, 2007 1:40 am (#2199 of 2486)
It got them as far away from danger as was possible. Giving them the wish that they wanted to go to Australia made them go. How would Voldemort know where they went if he sent death eaters to check up on the old family home? It seems a long way to go to get information.
PeskyPixie - Oct 20, 2007 2:03 pm (#2200 of 2486)
I wouldn't be surprised if, by the 1990s, there are small but growing Death Eater-esque movements in many countries around the world ... but this doesn't really belong on this thread, does it?
Solitaire - Oct 20, 2007 6:11 pm (#2201 of 2486)
Pesky, the DEs have always reminded me of the Nazi SS, but I have to confess they are also a lot like today's modern terrorists. Surely there are DEs, or their equivalent, in all countries of the Potterverse. However, Hermione may never have been a figure of interest until this point, so perhaps Voldy and the DEs never had any interest in her parents. If she sent them away with modified memories and no knowledge of her, it would, indeed, be more difficult to locate them. There would be no passport records showing their entry into Australia. It would be more like they'd simply dropped off the face of the earth. It must have been hard on their friends and patients, however. Surely there was a search for them in the Muggle world.
Solitaire
Michael Franz - Oct 28, 2007 8:29 pm (#2202 of 2486)
I knew that Voldemort would have no interest in Hermione or her parents because he's a monomaniac -- for him, everything is about that Potter boy. However, Lucius Malfoy is another matter. He's had to put up with Draco's rantings about "that Mudblood" for years, so he knows full well she's one of Harry's best friends.
I fully expected Lucius to attack Hermione's house in Book 6. Of course, that would mean that Hermione's parents would actually have been *in* book 6, which JK would *never* do. I actually think JK only gave Hermione parents in the first place because Harry was already an orphan. The fact that the *Dursleys* get more respect than the Grangers really ticks me off.
Vox Gerbilis - Oct 31, 2007 6:25 pm (#2203 of 2486)
I hope I'm not posting this on the wrong board. It pertains to Hermione, but more generally to all the muggle-born Hogwarts students. For all of Dumbledore's championing of muggle rights, his administration has very little regard for the parental rights of muggle parents. How much do they even know about what goes on at Hogwarts? Why weren't Hermione's parents notified when she was petrified in CoS? It's no wonder that Hermione seems to have no scruples about spending her vacations at school or the Burrow, or modifying her parents' memories. As Michael Franz commented, it does seem that the Dursleys get more respect. They at least get some information about what's going on with Harry.
Meoshimo - Oct 31, 2007 6:37 pm (#2204 of 2486)
Well, the Grangers were in an earlier book.
Michael Franz - Oct 31, 2007 7:18 pm (#2205 of 2486)
Well, the Grangers were in an earlier book.
(Clinton) That would depend on what the meaning of "in" is. (/Clinton)
Hermione's parents met Mr. and Mrs. Weasley when they went to Diagon Alley in Chamber of Secrets, but they did not have any lines, or, indeed, any first names. I hope neither one of them owns a red shirt!
How much do they even know about what goes on at Hogwarts?
Absolutely nothing. Remember, in Order of the Phoenix, Dean Thomas says his parents are Muggles and they don't know about any deaths at Hogwarts because he's not stupid enough to tell them.
Of course, if Dolohov had managed to kill Hermione in the Department of Mysteries, one can only imagine how Dumbledore would have handled that bit of news.
"Hermione's missing? My word! We'll send out search parties right away!" -- "Severus, you know what to do." -- "I'll prepare the lye bath and dissolve the body at once, Headmaster."
Mrs. Sirius - Oct 31, 2007 10:23 pm (#2206 of 2486)
The Dursleys are a different matter. Remember Pet wanted to got to Hogwarts and managed to write to Dumbledore. Although I still don't understand DD's letter to Pet in OoTP, she has had interactions with the wizarding world. Plus all of the Durleys get protection courtesy from Voldemort of the wizarding world.
The Grangers are, I am sorry to say it, irrelevant. They are important only because they are pure muggles and Hermiones' parents. They bring nothing to the story. They could have been summoned when Hermione was attacked, a visit and conversation with DD "off camera" and still have decided to leave her at the school for best care. They certainly wouldn't have known what to do with a petrified child.
Moaning Myrtles' parents were summoned to Hogwarts when she was attacked. I believe we got a glimps of them in HBP.
Michael Franz - Nov 2, 2007 12:40 pm (#2207 of 2486)
The Grangers are, I am sorry to say it, irrelevant.
Well, of course they are! They're Muggles! As Grindelwald would say, Magie über Alles! The problem is, it's not just him who would say that. Despite their pretensions of Muggle equality, even the good wizards regard Muggles as little more than trained chimpanzees. Hermione says she's a "Mudblood, and proud of it," but at least subconsciously, she feels the same way. Since her parents couldn't possibly understand magic, they're nothing more than a burden to her. I've gone as far as to say that when Hermione modified their memories in Deathly Hallows, she was secretly glad to be rid of them.
legolas returns - Nov 2, 2007 1:11 pm (#2208 of 2486)
So why did she burst into tears after telling Harry what she had done. I dont think she was glad.
PeskyPixie - Nov 2, 2007 2:58 pm (#2209 of 2486)
Hermione loves her parents just fine. It was probably just too difficult to consistently work them into a story with an already huge cast of characters.
Luna Logic - Nov 3, 2007 9:03 am (#2210 of 2486)
IMO, Hermione loves her parents, but all the excitement of her life is at Hogwarts and in the WW.
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Vox Gerbilis - Nov 10, 2007 8:42 am (#2211 of 2486)
The whole area of muggleborn wizards and their relationships with their muggle families is an entirely unexplored area of the story. Hermione's relationship with her parents is puzzling, because filial devotion seems to coexist with indifference. She never speaks disrespectfully of them, and the closest she comes to revealing a sense of alienation is her comment that becoming a prefect is something they can understand. Yet she rarely seems them, and she doesn't seem at all troubled by this. I guess we're just supposed to accept that the wizard children go their own way without any emotional pain on either side, but this supposition is a departure from the overall psychological realism of the books.
Solitaire - Nov 10, 2007 10:38 am (#2212 of 2486)
Vox, I think it would be interesting if Jo wrote a volume of short stories dealing with the issues faced by several of the Muggle-born kids and the families they leave behind. There were several such kids in the saga, and it would be interesting to see the initial reactions of the parents, the kids themselves, siblings, etc. How are the kids' sudden exoduses from their families explained to the extended families? I agree that there was not enough time to explore these issues in HP, but they would make for some fascinating future stories to keep the HP saga alive. Well, that is my opinion, anyway.
Solitaire
Orion - Nov 10, 2007 11:38 am (#2213 of 2486)
IMO, it is not such a big thing. Boarding schools seem to be quite popular in Britain. So you only have to explain, oh, she is at school abroad, it is a very good one, and then you choose a name of a well-known school and tell them it is in Switzerland.
I have acquaintances who love their children but they are not very close to them. Like for example, a teenager who takes every opportunity to go abroad, who takes every exchange programme she can get and can't wait to go to Australia for a whole year. Or many people I know where the teenagers never turn up in the living room and only meet their parents for meals. They want to be with their friends, or they are in their rooms.
It does not necessarily have anything to do with being muggle-born.
Victoire Weasley - Nov 10, 2007 12:44 pm (#2214 of 2486)
I have thought about this too. How can Hermione spend so much time away from her parents? She sees them what, 4 weeks out of the year?
I can see your point Orion. As a teen I spent a lot of time with my friends, but I was always able to see them whenever I wanted. Hermoine could certainly write letters, but it's not the same thing.
Maybe it's just a personality thing. Mayber Hermione is just more independent than others might be.
journeymom - Nov 10, 2007 1:09 pm (#2215 of 2486)
I think it was just unimportant to the plot. It's a limitation of this author. We can explain it away quite a bit. And I agree, the boarding school motif might be short-hand for an experience that I, as an American, am not familiar with. But HP was rife with undeveloped ideas, dead-ends and subplots that JKR should have addressed.
And Soli, I totally agree. Several short stories are appropriate, and would be well received. (In other words, I'd luuuuuve a book of short stories!)
Victoire Weasley - Nov 10, 2007 1:15 pm (#2216 of 2486)
Of course JKR couldn't put all of the material in and it's pretty obvious that Hermione was needed at Hogwarts and with Harry in DH. Hermione never saw her parents because JKR needed her to be elsewhere and thats just the way it needed to be. I can accept this, it's just one of those things that I don't find all that satisfying.
Yes, I would buy the short stories.
Michael Franz - Nov 10, 2007 5:33 pm (#2217 of 2486)
But what would have happened if Hermione had been killed in the battle at the Department of Mysteries? Would Dumbledore have told the truth to Hermione's parents? Before Book 7, I would have said yes -- but a man who can cover up his own sister's death so thoroughly should have no problem coming up with a cover story for this. (Of course, it would be a complete betrayal of his fight against the cover-up of Cedric Diggory's death, but would he see it that way?)
Solitaire - Nov 11, 2007 11:28 am (#2218 of 2486)
If Hermione had not become so "entwined" with Harry and Ron during her first year at Hogwarts, her subsequent relationship with her parents might have been very different. Alas, a close friendship with Harry was a full-time commitment! Their friendship was not bound by school terms. When she involved herself in Harry's life and troubles in her first year, that step seemed to direct and determine the course of her life.
Consider how much time she spent at the Burrow, even when Harry was at 4PD. My guess is that there were some "off camera" conversations and between the Weasleys and the senior Grangers respecting Hermione. Intelligent, educated people like the Grangers surely understood that, once their daughter stepped across the threshold of the magical world, their family dynamics would be altered forever. Perhaps they were better able to let go of her because they knew the Weasleys were a loving family who would help Hermione make the transitions and provide her with compassionate role models and a type of "parental love" and understanding in her new world.
Solitaire
Vox Gerbilis - Nov 11, 2007 3:04 pm (#2219 of 2486)
As the HP saga was structured, muggleborn wizards were essential, but the questions of what happens to their familial relationships were beyond the scope of the story. Still, it makes a very interesting question that I would love for JKR to explore in future works.
It bothers me that the muggleborns' parents have to take such a leap into the unknown for the story to work. Even if the Grangers would have otherwise sent Hermione to a boarding school and rarely saw her, they would have been able to check on her progress, ensure she was getting a good education and a good preparation for her future, and ensure that she was safe and receiving good treatment. Instead, they are clueless about what she is learning, what sort of future she's preparing for, and what dangers she is facing. This is a huge can of worms that's opened in the books. I would love to have some answers.
haymoni - Nov 11, 2007 4:12 pm (#2220 of 2486)
Or maybe the Grangers were selfish jerks who didn't care about their daughter's day-to-day activities.
But we'll never know!
Mrs. Sirius - Nov 11, 2007 4:22 pm (#2221 of 2486)
I think parents are informed of all essential information. In COS of Prof McGonagall informs Harry and Ron that their parents and guardians are being informed of their extra special mode of transportation to school. Seems nothing was left out judging by Molly's reaction.
rambkowalczyk - Nov 11, 2007 5:30 pm (#2222 of 2486)
Agree with Journeymom. Hermione's parents don't contribute to the plot, therefore they are left out. I thought I remembered that she chose them to be both dentist because she thought it was a very boring occupation. Muggles=boring Wizards=exciting.
Victoire Weasley - Nov 13, 2007 4:23 pm (#2223 of 2486)
Just an interesting note. According to Greek mythology, Hermione was the daughter of Helen of Troy and was left in Sparta when Helen left. Her father King Menelaus also left to fight in the Trojan War. She basically grew up without her parents. I'm pretty sure JKR said that the two characters were not related, but I thought it was interesting given the discussion of Hermione Granger's parents.
I was just thinking about the whole Lavender-Ron 'ship and thought how weird it must have been in the girls' dormitory with Hermione and Lavender sharing a room. Luckily they have those curtains for privacy, but could you imagine listening to Lav Lav and Parvati giggling over Ron. How obnoxious.
I'm sure this has been discussed as well, but I'm curious what you came up with. Who are the other Gryffindor girls in Hermione's year? Hermione, Lavender, Parvati and who else?
Michael Franz - Nov 13, 2007 11:34 pm (#2224 of 2486)
I think parents are informed of all essential information.
"Essential" seems to be a relative term. In Book 4, Dumbledore announced to the whole school that Cedric Diggory had been murdered by Voldemort, but in Book 5, Dean Thomas said his Muggle parents didn't know anything about any deaths at Hogwarts because he wasn't stupid enough to tell them. Perhaps Dumbledore didn't consider this information "essential."
I say again: if Hermione had died at the DoM, would Dumbledore have told her parents the truth?
Denise P. - Nov 14, 2007 7:04 am (#2225 of 2486)
I would say, yes, Dumbledore would have told her parents the truth but it may not have been the truth that we all know. The truth that we know was that Hermione, as an underage wizard, was engaged in a life and death battle using magic against adults bent on killing her. I think the Grangers would have been told Hermione died in a magical incident, which would be the truth.
Really, I don't think the Grangers would have questioned it. As a Muggle, they probably were somewhat in awe that their daughter could do magic and I would guess she had told them about the magical world, things that seemed impossible to muggles. Based on that, it would not be a stretch that she was also doing dangerous magic that had the potential to be very bad. In years past, high school students went through Drivers Ed. Everyone knows that a car has the potential to become a lethal weapon quickly yet most students signed up for the class. Rarely did an accident happen that resulted in death but I am sure it did.
I always have thought that perhaps Hermione came to the Grangers later in life. While thrilled to have a child, they may have been unsure what to do with her as she came along and grew up. They love her, want the best for her but may have been more thrilled than expected to learn that she was a wizard and off to school for 7 years. I think there is strong family love within the Grangers, it just doesn't fit the sterotype family that most of us think of. I did go to boarding school and there were many Hermiones, who went on every school trip and never seemed to actually go home.
wynnleaf - Nov 14, 2007 12:31 pm (#2226 of 2486)
Based on that, it would not be a stretch that she was also doing dangerous magic that had the potential to be very bad. In years past, high school students went through Drivers Ed. Everyone knows that a car has the potential to become a lethal weapon quickly yet most students signed up for the class. Rarely did an accident happen that resulted in death but I am sure it did. (Denise P)
Imagine if when a kid signed up for Drivers Ed, and the parents presumably accepted the risk of the course, but the teen was then allowed and at least tacitly encouraged to get involved in dangerous car races, even to the extent of being given rewards for winning. And when the kid was seriously injured or even killed, the parents were just told it happened in the Drivers Ed course, for which risks the parents had already agreed to accept. Any school or administrator that would do that would be incredibly unethical.
Denise P. - Nov 14, 2007 1:43 pm (#2227 of 2486)
I agree, the school would be unethical and indeed, it would be unethical, but true, to say Hermione died in a magical incident if she had been killed in the MoM battle. I just said that if that is what they were told, I can see where it would not be that surprising or unexpected.
As it is, she did NOT die so this is just amusing speculation on the reactions of her parents and what DD may or may not have told them.
As it is, I don't think Hogwarts lets new muggle parents truly know the extent of the dangers their children face but that is the topic for a different thread
wynnleaf - Nov 14, 2007 2:39 pm (#2228 of 2486)
No, she didn't die, but she was seriously injured in OOTP, which is sort of what I was basing my addendum to your analogy on. We don't know if her parents were told the true state of the situation or not. I tend to assume they weren't or, if they'd known the real danger involved, why wouldn't Hermione simply talk them into a similar arrangement of going into hiding as the Dursleys for the time after HBP?
Soul Search - Nov 14, 2007 2:55 pm (#2229 of 2486)
While Hermione changing her parents memories and having them move to Australia was the absolute right way to assure their safety, it also meant they didn't have to be further considered in the storyline. Convenient.
I have wondered how Hermione got them back? How would she get to Australia and find them?
Denise P. - Nov 14, 2007 2:57 pm (#2230 of 2486)
Again, coming as both a muggle and a mom, I would assume that if Hermione HAD tried to talk them into hiding, I would think she was overreacting and exaggerating the danger we were in. She is still a teen and I tend to take what my teens tell me with a grain of salt.
"Now, honey, I am sure you think it is a serious situation but we are surrounded by people here. For heaven's sake we can call the police or MI-5 if we need to but we are perfectly safe here. We are dentists, what could they possibly want with us?"
I am sure Hermione knew how her parents would react and that is why she chose to modify their memories. As it was, we don't know she DIDN'T try to talk them into hiding or offering them WMPP (Wizarding Muggle Protection Program) like the Dursleys got.
wynnleaf - Nov 14, 2007 7:46 pm (#2231 of 2486)
While Hermione changing her parents memories and having them move to Australia was the absolute right way to assure their safety, it also meant they didn't have to be further considered in the storyline. (Soul Search)
Do you mean that? Or are you kidding?
And Denise, you're right. For all we know Hermione did try to get them to go into hiding. I do think any parent would be a lot more likely to believe their teenage kid if they knew she'd already been almost killed by these "terrorist style" bad guys. And that was part of my point about them probably not having been told how she was injured in OOTP. If they'd already known the extent of the danger, she probably wouldn't have had to obliviate them to get them into hiding.
Michael Franz - Nov 14, 2007 8:21 pm (#2232 of 2486)
Again, coming as both a muggle and a mom, I would assume that if Hermione HAD tried to talk them into hiding, I would think she was overreacting and exaggerating the danger we were in.
Of course, it might be easier to believe if a teacher told them -- perhaps even the Headmaster!
Denise P. - Nov 14, 2007 8:30 pm (#2233 of 2486)
You think Snape would have taken the time to go talk to them? I agree, I think it would have had more impact but as was pointed out upthread, having the Grangers undergo a memory charm and ship them off to Australia neatly takes them out where they don't have to be mentioned any longer...at least as far as the story goes. I would like to think that Hermione tracked them down and re-modified their memories so she could have her parents back.
TwinklingBlueEyes - Nov 14, 2007 8:38 pm (#2234 of 2486)
"Assuming I survive our hunt for the Horcruxes, I'll find Mum and Dad and lift the enchantment. If I don't - well, I think I've cast a good enough charm to keep them safe and happy. Wendell and Monica Wilkins don't know they that they've got a daughter, you see."
DH Scholastic pp. 97
Hoot Owl - Nov 14, 2007 8:47 pm (#2235 of 2486)
Didn't JKR say,in a post publication talk, that Hermione had found her parents and reversed the memory modification?
I like to think Ron accompanied her on the journey.
Denise P. - Nov 14, 2007 8:52 pm (#2236 of 2486)
Do you think that after she went to re-modify their memories, Hermione would have told her parents what she had done and why? I am not sure she would have come totally clean with what she did or why it was necessary. While she clearly loved her parents, I don't think they were particularly close.
Soul Search - Nov 14, 2007 9:38 pm (#2237 of 2486)
wynnleaf, I did mean it.
We don't even know their names! When we see them it is at a distance. Most mention of Hermione's parents are in reference to Hermione not being with them. They aren't important to the story, but have to be mentioned just for a little continuity. Crookshanks gets more page time.
PeskyPixie - Nov 14, 2007 11:30 pm (#2238 of 2486)
I don't look too deeply into Hermione's relationship with her parents. They're off in the big crowd in the background mainly for pace and plot purposes. I mean, we didn't even have the time to scrape Snape off of the Shrieking Shack floor!
wynnleaf - Nov 15, 2007 7:39 am (#2239 of 2486)
I realize that JKR used Hermione's action in obliviating her parents as a convenient way to get them out of harm's way, but even without knowing anything much about her parents or their relationship, it's a very Hermione-ish thing to do. What parent would ever want to lose the memories of their only child? And what right did Hermione have to completely take over their lives and even their minds just to suit her own desires to keep them safe? But it's very much like Hermione to think that what she believes is best makes it okay to do as she pleases, regardless of the rights or wishes of others.
Even in real life, war situations have caused people throughout the ages to worry over the safety of their parents. Often even grown children have argued in vain to get their parents to move out of harm's way. But very rarely does the child, even as an adult, have the right to take the decision away from the parents and force them to do as the child wishes.
Michael Franz - Nov 15, 2007 9:27 pm (#2240 of 2486)
And what right did Hermione have to completely take over their lives and even their minds just to suit her own desires to keep them safe?
Well, Might Makes Right, and Magic Is Might. But, of course, a Muggle-born could never believe that!
But it's very much like Hermione to think that what she believes is best makes it okay to do as she pleases, regardless of the rights or wishes of others.
You know what they say about good intentions. But I think this is a classic example of what happens when your Intelligence score (18) is a lot higher than your Wisdom score (10). Hermione's Charisma score isn't very high (12), but it's just high enough to be dangerous. It makes her assertive, but it's not strong enough to get other people to agree to her assertions. Therefore, she gets frustrated when others don't agree. I mean, she's smarter than they are! They have to agree, don't they?
Chemyst - Nov 16, 2007 12:22 pm (#2241 of 2486)
We learned from comments on JKR's website that originally Hermione was to have a little sister. Early on we'd met her parents on Diagon Alley. Obviously they proved too nonessential to Harry to bother with as the plot developed.
Due to lack of clues, I don't think we can draw any accurate conclusions about what Hermione's relationship with her parents was really like; although can see a little of what it was not.
We have canon that Hermione wrote letters to Viktor. We can make a leap and say she was a prodigious writer of letters home, and probably would have written even more if her parents could have understood. This can be deduced from the time she borrowed Hedwig to let them know she'd been selected prefect.
I think we must also accept that Hermione's time away from home is normal for a minority of families. The summer before my senior year, I attended a 7-week camp at a place that was a boarding school during the school year. Fully one-third of the other kids there did attend boarding schools and saw their parents as little as four or five weeks out of the entire year. I was surprised by how normal these kids considered it to rarely see their families. Of all I met, there was only one girl who obviously felt she was being shipped off and ignored, and that was due to a remarriage situation which can make kids feel abandoned even when they are living 24/7 in the same house.
shepherdess - Nov 16, 2007 2:01 pm (#2242 of 2486)
Since we have not heard Hermione complain about her parents, tell Ron how lucky he is to have a mum who cares as much as Molly does, or make comments like "I wish I could talk to my parents about things, but they just wouldn't understand"; and since Hermione was obviously upset about having to do what she did with her parents (as evidenced by her comments and emotions in DH and proving that she loves them), I would assume that they had a good relationship, and that she probably wrote to them often and kept them informed of everything she could (and probably more than we think she would have). But would we really want to read (and would Jo really want to write) 7 years worth of "Hermione, having finished all her homework, was now writing a letter to her parents", "as Harry and Ron were searching the library shelves for useful books, Hermione sat at the table writing a letter to her mum", "Hermione sat in the stands watching the Quiditch practice and writing a letter to her dad" and "she left them to go write (yet another) letter to her parents"? I think it's like bathing and brushing teeth; Jo left it to us to assume that it happened "off screen".
I suppose it's possible that (know-it-all) Hermione might have just taken it upon herself to remove her parents' memories and send them off to another country without discussing it with them first because it was "what was best". But I also think it's possible that she did talk to them and tried to explain the situation, perhaps even succeeding in conveying the gravity of the situation and making the danger to them perfectly clear. I can see them flatly refusing to go hide in some dark hole somewhere while their 17 (18?) year old daughter went off who-knows-where with two boys (men?) for who-knows-how-long doing who-knows-what and facing who-knows-what-kind of dangers and possibly getting herself killed. I can see them insisting that Hermione go into hiding with them if they had to go.
I can see Hermione weighing her options and deciding that, since she has to go with Harry and Ron to help with the task Dumbledore left; and since her parents are refusing to cooperate with her, the best thing for all concerned would be to modify their memories (so they wouldn't worry themselves sick or try to do something stupid/heroic), send them somewhere else (so LV wouldn't try to get to Harry through Hermione through her parents), thus allowing her to do what she needed to do to help destroy LV. I can see it being a painful decision for her.
And think how different the book might have turned out had she not done that. What if her parents had made her go into hiding with them instead of going with Harry and Ron? What if the Granger's had agreed to go to Australia without the memory modifications, then after months of not hearing from her deciding they couldn't stand it any more and coming back to search for her?
Had she not done what she did; and had the horcrux hunt gone on without her, Voldemort might have won.
Solitaire - Nov 17, 2007 11:36 am (#2243 of 2486)
Very well reasoned, Shepherdess. I find your assessment of Hermione's actions and the reasoning behind them absolutely sound, in light of all we know about her. I've never considered her actions with her parents to be presumptuous. I believe she did the only compassionate thing she could think to do, under the circumstances, to protect her parents and prevent any unnecessary grief or suffering.
Solitaire
Soul Search - Nov 17, 2007 12:27 pm (#2244 of 2486)
It had to have been difficult for Hermione to remove Harry and herself from her parents memories and cause them to move to Australia. In effect, for a time, Hermione had no parents!
Her breakdown when she tells Harry and Ron "Wendell and Monica Wilkins don't know they that they've got a daughter, you see" clearly demonstrates she is upset by the actions she really had to take and worried that it won't all work out.
Vox Gerbilis - Nov 17, 2007 7:11 pm (#2245 of 2486)
What I find unnerving about Hermione and other muggleborn Hogwarts students is that their parents are allowing them to cut themselves off from the "normal" world and enter a completely unknown world at the age of 11. What sort of parent would let their kid forego a normal education and future in order to embrace a world they never knew existed? How does the Hogwarts administration persuade them to do this? And what happens to the kid's relationship with the muggle family, not just the parents, but the grandparents, aunts, uncles, etc who otherwise would have gotten regular updates about the child's schooling and other plans? Obviously, these issues are never discussed because they are irrelevant to the HP storyline, but they arise nonetheless because muggleborn wizards are an important part of the story. I would love to have JKR address these in a sequel work. (I have similar questions about muggles who marry into the WW.)
Solitaire - Nov 17, 2007 9:01 pm (#2246 of 2486)
what happens to the kid's relationship with the muggle family, not just the parents, but the grandparents, aunts, uncles, etc who otherwise would have gotten regular updates about the child's schooling and other plans?
Several posts back, I said I felt this aspect of the Potterverse would provide JK with rich material for many short stories. I hope this is something she does someday. She could write a volume dealing with some of the Muggle-borns we have met in our sojourn in the world of Harry Potter. I would love to know about some of their early magical experiences and learn how they manage to maintain a life that straddles two worlds, the Magical and the Muggle.
Solitaire
Mrs. Sirius - Nov 17, 2007 10:11 pm (#2247 of 2486)
What sort of parent would let their kid forego a normal education and future in order to embrace a world they never knew existed? How does the Hogwarts administration persuade them to do this? Vox
Vox I think many parents make that decision regularly. Think of a gymnastic prodigies, or even the deaf student, for whom an education at deaf school is the best answer. These student have to often leave home to live at schools far from home, sometimes even in different states. They may attend intensive training camps for additional time away from home. My state has a deaf school to which children from all over the northeast of the USA were sent to attend. (the pendulum has swung again to mainstreaming at the local school)
I was a hugh Olympics fan, and actually watched the heartwarming videos about the competitors lives. Many of these kids talked about moving away from home to live closer to coaches or training facilities with infrequent opportunities to visit their families. Given the right opportunities to advance or deficit of opportunities at local areas, I think not to strange for parents to permit their children to be far from home with limited contact.
Solitaire - Nov 19, 2007 8:04 am (#2248 of 2486)
Very good analogy, Mrs. Sirius. I think musical prodigies are sometimes sent to live and study with their coach/teachers, as well. I even knew such a kid when I was in grammar school. Hm ... I'd not considered it that way before.
Solitaire
wynnleaf - Nov 19, 2007 8:20 am (#2249 of 2486)
The deaf analogy is a good one, especially since the deaf child can grow up in a completely different culture than the parents.
As regards whether or not Hermione's actions toward her parents was presumptuous, I don't see how it can be anything but. She "presumed" to take their right of choice away from them, presuming that she knew best, and presuming that it would be better for them to live without ever remembering her than to risk dying while loving her. Those were all their choices to make. Of course Hermione was presumptuous to take those choices away.
Soul Search - Nov 19, 2007 9:49 am (#2250 of 2486)
Hermione was also "presumptuous" with Harry and Ron. She packed all their things into the beaded bag, including Ron's underpants when they came out of the wash. She planned everything without really consulting them. Good thing. Without Hermione's planning and preparation they all would have been in deep trouble. In a large sense, it was Hermione who defeated Voldemort.
I wonder if Hermione, especially, and Ron ever got the recognition they deserved. In the Epilogue Ron makes a facetious comment about being famous. I took this to mean he wasn't famous and the wizarding world never learned the whole story of Voldemort's defeat.
Harry would be quite famous: a large audience saw him "kill" Voldemort (even though that wasn't exactly what happened.) Even in Hogwarts, no one saw Hermione or Ron do anything. None of the trio ever used the word "horcrux" to anyone else (except Harry to Voldemort during their very intense fight.)
The most the wizarding world would know of Hermione's and Ron's role in Voldemort's defeat would be that they accompanied Harry when he successfully robbed Gringots. And none knew why!
My read of Hermione would be that she would not want the wizarding world to know of her true role in Voldemort's defeat. Ron may appreciate a little fame, but would be mostly satisfied with his association with Harry, like he was since the age of eleven.
I wonder if the trio ever told the whole story. And to whom.
The whole area of muggleborn wizards and their relationships with their muggle families is an entirely unexplored area of the story. Hermione's relationship with her parents is puzzling, because filial devotion seems to coexist with indifference. She never speaks disrespectfully of them, and the closest she comes to revealing a sense of alienation is her comment that becoming a prefect is something they can understand. Yet she rarely seems them, and she doesn't seem at all troubled by this. I guess we're just supposed to accept that the wizard children go their own way without any emotional pain on either side, but this supposition is a departure from the overall psychological realism of the books.
Solitaire - Nov 10, 2007 10:38 am (#2212 of 2486)
Vox, I think it would be interesting if Jo wrote a volume of short stories dealing with the issues faced by several of the Muggle-born kids and the families they leave behind. There were several such kids in the saga, and it would be interesting to see the initial reactions of the parents, the kids themselves, siblings, etc. How are the kids' sudden exoduses from their families explained to the extended families? I agree that there was not enough time to explore these issues in HP, but they would make for some fascinating future stories to keep the HP saga alive. Well, that is my opinion, anyway.
Solitaire
Orion - Nov 10, 2007 11:38 am (#2213 of 2486)
IMO, it is not such a big thing. Boarding schools seem to be quite popular in Britain. So you only have to explain, oh, she is at school abroad, it is a very good one, and then you choose a name of a well-known school and tell them it is in Switzerland.
I have acquaintances who love their children but they are not very close to them. Like for example, a teenager who takes every opportunity to go abroad, who takes every exchange programme she can get and can't wait to go to Australia for a whole year. Or many people I know where the teenagers never turn up in the living room and only meet their parents for meals. They want to be with their friends, or they are in their rooms.
It does not necessarily have anything to do with being muggle-born.
Victoire Weasley - Nov 10, 2007 12:44 pm (#2214 of 2486)
I have thought about this too. How can Hermione spend so much time away from her parents? She sees them what, 4 weeks out of the year?
I can see your point Orion. As a teen I spent a lot of time with my friends, but I was always able to see them whenever I wanted. Hermoine could certainly write letters, but it's not the same thing.
Maybe it's just a personality thing. Mayber Hermione is just more independent than others might be.
journeymom - Nov 10, 2007 1:09 pm (#2215 of 2486)
I think it was just unimportant to the plot. It's a limitation of this author. We can explain it away quite a bit. And I agree, the boarding school motif might be short-hand for an experience that I, as an American, am not familiar with. But HP was rife with undeveloped ideas, dead-ends and subplots that JKR should have addressed.
And Soli, I totally agree. Several short stories are appropriate, and would be well received. (In other words, I'd luuuuuve a book of short stories!)
Victoire Weasley - Nov 10, 2007 1:15 pm (#2216 of 2486)
Of course JKR couldn't put all of the material in and it's pretty obvious that Hermione was needed at Hogwarts and with Harry in DH. Hermione never saw her parents because JKR needed her to be elsewhere and thats just the way it needed to be. I can accept this, it's just one of those things that I don't find all that satisfying.
Yes, I would buy the short stories.
Michael Franz - Nov 10, 2007 5:33 pm (#2217 of 2486)
But what would have happened if Hermione had been killed in the battle at the Department of Mysteries? Would Dumbledore have told the truth to Hermione's parents? Before Book 7, I would have said yes -- but a man who can cover up his own sister's death so thoroughly should have no problem coming up with a cover story for this. (Of course, it would be a complete betrayal of his fight against the cover-up of Cedric Diggory's death, but would he see it that way?)
Solitaire - Nov 11, 2007 11:28 am (#2218 of 2486)
If Hermione had not become so "entwined" with Harry and Ron during her first year at Hogwarts, her subsequent relationship with her parents might have been very different. Alas, a close friendship with Harry was a full-time commitment! Their friendship was not bound by school terms. When she involved herself in Harry's life and troubles in her first year, that step seemed to direct and determine the course of her life.
Consider how much time she spent at the Burrow, even when Harry was at 4PD. My guess is that there were some "off camera" conversations and between the Weasleys and the senior Grangers respecting Hermione. Intelligent, educated people like the Grangers surely understood that, once their daughter stepped across the threshold of the magical world, their family dynamics would be altered forever. Perhaps they were better able to let go of her because they knew the Weasleys were a loving family who would help Hermione make the transitions and provide her with compassionate role models and a type of "parental love" and understanding in her new world.
Solitaire
Vox Gerbilis - Nov 11, 2007 3:04 pm (#2219 of 2486)
As the HP saga was structured, muggleborn wizards were essential, but the questions of what happens to their familial relationships were beyond the scope of the story. Still, it makes a very interesting question that I would love for JKR to explore in future works.
It bothers me that the muggleborns' parents have to take such a leap into the unknown for the story to work. Even if the Grangers would have otherwise sent Hermione to a boarding school and rarely saw her, they would have been able to check on her progress, ensure she was getting a good education and a good preparation for her future, and ensure that she was safe and receiving good treatment. Instead, they are clueless about what she is learning, what sort of future she's preparing for, and what dangers she is facing. This is a huge can of worms that's opened in the books. I would love to have some answers.
haymoni - Nov 11, 2007 4:12 pm (#2220 of 2486)
Or maybe the Grangers were selfish jerks who didn't care about their daughter's day-to-day activities.
But we'll never know!
Mrs. Sirius - Nov 11, 2007 4:22 pm (#2221 of 2486)
I think parents are informed of all essential information. In COS of Prof McGonagall informs Harry and Ron that their parents and guardians are being informed of their extra special mode of transportation to school. Seems nothing was left out judging by Molly's reaction.
rambkowalczyk - Nov 11, 2007 5:30 pm (#2222 of 2486)
Agree with Journeymom. Hermione's parents don't contribute to the plot, therefore they are left out. I thought I remembered that she chose them to be both dentist because she thought it was a very boring occupation. Muggles=boring Wizards=exciting.
Victoire Weasley - Nov 13, 2007 4:23 pm (#2223 of 2486)
Just an interesting note. According to Greek mythology, Hermione was the daughter of Helen of Troy and was left in Sparta when Helen left. Her father King Menelaus also left to fight in the Trojan War. She basically grew up without her parents. I'm pretty sure JKR said that the two characters were not related, but I thought it was interesting given the discussion of Hermione Granger's parents.
I was just thinking about the whole Lavender-Ron 'ship and thought how weird it must have been in the girls' dormitory with Hermione and Lavender sharing a room. Luckily they have those curtains for privacy, but could you imagine listening to Lav Lav and Parvati giggling over Ron. How obnoxious.
I'm sure this has been discussed as well, but I'm curious what you came up with. Who are the other Gryffindor girls in Hermione's year? Hermione, Lavender, Parvati and who else?
Michael Franz - Nov 13, 2007 11:34 pm (#2224 of 2486)
I think parents are informed of all essential information.
"Essential" seems to be a relative term. In Book 4, Dumbledore announced to the whole school that Cedric Diggory had been murdered by Voldemort, but in Book 5, Dean Thomas said his Muggle parents didn't know anything about any deaths at Hogwarts because he wasn't stupid enough to tell them. Perhaps Dumbledore didn't consider this information "essential."
I say again: if Hermione had died at the DoM, would Dumbledore have told her parents the truth?
Denise P. - Nov 14, 2007 7:04 am (#2225 of 2486)
I would say, yes, Dumbledore would have told her parents the truth but it may not have been the truth that we all know. The truth that we know was that Hermione, as an underage wizard, was engaged in a life and death battle using magic against adults bent on killing her. I think the Grangers would have been told Hermione died in a magical incident, which would be the truth.
Really, I don't think the Grangers would have questioned it. As a Muggle, they probably were somewhat in awe that their daughter could do magic and I would guess she had told them about the magical world, things that seemed impossible to muggles. Based on that, it would not be a stretch that she was also doing dangerous magic that had the potential to be very bad. In years past, high school students went through Drivers Ed. Everyone knows that a car has the potential to become a lethal weapon quickly yet most students signed up for the class. Rarely did an accident happen that resulted in death but I am sure it did.
I always have thought that perhaps Hermione came to the Grangers later in life. While thrilled to have a child, they may have been unsure what to do with her as she came along and grew up. They love her, want the best for her but may have been more thrilled than expected to learn that she was a wizard and off to school for 7 years. I think there is strong family love within the Grangers, it just doesn't fit the sterotype family that most of us think of. I did go to boarding school and there were many Hermiones, who went on every school trip and never seemed to actually go home.
wynnleaf - Nov 14, 2007 12:31 pm (#2226 of 2486)
Based on that, it would not be a stretch that she was also doing dangerous magic that had the potential to be very bad. In years past, high school students went through Drivers Ed. Everyone knows that a car has the potential to become a lethal weapon quickly yet most students signed up for the class. Rarely did an accident happen that resulted in death but I am sure it did. (Denise P)
Imagine if when a kid signed up for Drivers Ed, and the parents presumably accepted the risk of the course, but the teen was then allowed and at least tacitly encouraged to get involved in dangerous car races, even to the extent of being given rewards for winning. And when the kid was seriously injured or even killed, the parents were just told it happened in the Drivers Ed course, for which risks the parents had already agreed to accept. Any school or administrator that would do that would be incredibly unethical.
Denise P. - Nov 14, 2007 1:43 pm (#2227 of 2486)
I agree, the school would be unethical and indeed, it would be unethical, but true, to say Hermione died in a magical incident if she had been killed in the MoM battle. I just said that if that is what they were told, I can see where it would not be that surprising or unexpected.
As it is, she did NOT die so this is just amusing speculation on the reactions of her parents and what DD may or may not have told them.
As it is, I don't think Hogwarts lets new muggle parents truly know the extent of the dangers their children face but that is the topic for a different thread
wynnleaf - Nov 14, 2007 2:39 pm (#2228 of 2486)
No, she didn't die, but she was seriously injured in OOTP, which is sort of what I was basing my addendum to your analogy on. We don't know if her parents were told the true state of the situation or not. I tend to assume they weren't or, if they'd known the real danger involved, why wouldn't Hermione simply talk them into a similar arrangement of going into hiding as the Dursleys for the time after HBP?
Soul Search - Nov 14, 2007 2:55 pm (#2229 of 2486)
While Hermione changing her parents memories and having them move to Australia was the absolute right way to assure their safety, it also meant they didn't have to be further considered in the storyline. Convenient.
I have wondered how Hermione got them back? How would she get to Australia and find them?
Denise P. - Nov 14, 2007 2:57 pm (#2230 of 2486)
Again, coming as both a muggle and a mom, I would assume that if Hermione HAD tried to talk them into hiding, I would think she was overreacting and exaggerating the danger we were in. She is still a teen and I tend to take what my teens tell me with a grain of salt.
"Now, honey, I am sure you think it is a serious situation but we are surrounded by people here. For heaven's sake we can call the police or MI-5 if we need to but we are perfectly safe here. We are dentists, what could they possibly want with us?"
I am sure Hermione knew how her parents would react and that is why she chose to modify their memories. As it was, we don't know she DIDN'T try to talk them into hiding or offering them WMPP (Wizarding Muggle Protection Program) like the Dursleys got.
wynnleaf - Nov 14, 2007 7:46 pm (#2231 of 2486)
While Hermione changing her parents memories and having them move to Australia was the absolute right way to assure their safety, it also meant they didn't have to be further considered in the storyline. (Soul Search)
Do you mean that? Or are you kidding?
And Denise, you're right. For all we know Hermione did try to get them to go into hiding. I do think any parent would be a lot more likely to believe their teenage kid if they knew she'd already been almost killed by these "terrorist style" bad guys. And that was part of my point about them probably not having been told how she was injured in OOTP. If they'd already known the extent of the danger, she probably wouldn't have had to obliviate them to get them into hiding.
Michael Franz - Nov 14, 2007 8:21 pm (#2232 of 2486)
Again, coming as both a muggle and a mom, I would assume that if Hermione HAD tried to talk them into hiding, I would think she was overreacting and exaggerating the danger we were in.
Of course, it might be easier to believe if a teacher told them -- perhaps even the Headmaster!
Denise P. - Nov 14, 2007 8:30 pm (#2233 of 2486)
You think Snape would have taken the time to go talk to them? I agree, I think it would have had more impact but as was pointed out upthread, having the Grangers undergo a memory charm and ship them off to Australia neatly takes them out where they don't have to be mentioned any longer...at least as far as the story goes. I would like to think that Hermione tracked them down and re-modified their memories so she could have her parents back.
TwinklingBlueEyes - Nov 14, 2007 8:38 pm (#2234 of 2486)
"Assuming I survive our hunt for the Horcruxes, I'll find Mum and Dad and lift the enchantment. If I don't - well, I think I've cast a good enough charm to keep them safe and happy. Wendell and Monica Wilkins don't know they that they've got a daughter, you see."
DH Scholastic pp. 97
Hoot Owl - Nov 14, 2007 8:47 pm (#2235 of 2486)
Didn't JKR say,in a post publication talk, that Hermione had found her parents and reversed the memory modification?
I like to think Ron accompanied her on the journey.
Denise P. - Nov 14, 2007 8:52 pm (#2236 of 2486)
Do you think that after she went to re-modify their memories, Hermione would have told her parents what she had done and why? I am not sure she would have come totally clean with what she did or why it was necessary. While she clearly loved her parents, I don't think they were particularly close.
Soul Search - Nov 14, 2007 9:38 pm (#2237 of 2486)
wynnleaf, I did mean it.
We don't even know their names! When we see them it is at a distance. Most mention of Hermione's parents are in reference to Hermione not being with them. They aren't important to the story, but have to be mentioned just for a little continuity. Crookshanks gets more page time.
PeskyPixie - Nov 14, 2007 11:30 pm (#2238 of 2486)
I don't look too deeply into Hermione's relationship with her parents. They're off in the big crowd in the background mainly for pace and plot purposes. I mean, we didn't even have the time to scrape Snape off of the Shrieking Shack floor!
wynnleaf - Nov 15, 2007 7:39 am (#2239 of 2486)
I realize that JKR used Hermione's action in obliviating her parents as a convenient way to get them out of harm's way, but even without knowing anything much about her parents or their relationship, it's a very Hermione-ish thing to do. What parent would ever want to lose the memories of their only child? And what right did Hermione have to completely take over their lives and even their minds just to suit her own desires to keep them safe? But it's very much like Hermione to think that what she believes is best makes it okay to do as she pleases, regardless of the rights or wishes of others.
Even in real life, war situations have caused people throughout the ages to worry over the safety of their parents. Often even grown children have argued in vain to get their parents to move out of harm's way. But very rarely does the child, even as an adult, have the right to take the decision away from the parents and force them to do as the child wishes.
Michael Franz - Nov 15, 2007 9:27 pm (#2240 of 2486)
And what right did Hermione have to completely take over their lives and even their minds just to suit her own desires to keep them safe?
Well, Might Makes Right, and Magic Is Might. But, of course, a Muggle-born could never believe that!
But it's very much like Hermione to think that what she believes is best makes it okay to do as she pleases, regardless of the rights or wishes of others.
You know what they say about good intentions. But I think this is a classic example of what happens when your Intelligence score (18) is a lot higher than your Wisdom score (10). Hermione's Charisma score isn't very high (12), but it's just high enough to be dangerous. It makes her assertive, but it's not strong enough to get other people to agree to her assertions. Therefore, she gets frustrated when others don't agree. I mean, she's smarter than they are! They have to agree, don't they?
Chemyst - Nov 16, 2007 12:22 pm (#2241 of 2486)
We learned from comments on JKR's website that originally Hermione was to have a little sister. Early on we'd met her parents on Diagon Alley. Obviously they proved too nonessential to Harry to bother with as the plot developed.
Due to lack of clues, I don't think we can draw any accurate conclusions about what Hermione's relationship with her parents was really like; although can see a little of what it was not.
We have canon that Hermione wrote letters to Viktor. We can make a leap and say she was a prodigious writer of letters home, and probably would have written even more if her parents could have understood. This can be deduced from the time she borrowed Hedwig to let them know she'd been selected prefect.
I think we must also accept that Hermione's time away from home is normal for a minority of families. The summer before my senior year, I attended a 7-week camp at a place that was a boarding school during the school year. Fully one-third of the other kids there did attend boarding schools and saw their parents as little as four or five weeks out of the entire year. I was surprised by how normal these kids considered it to rarely see their families. Of all I met, there was only one girl who obviously felt she was being shipped off and ignored, and that was due to a remarriage situation which can make kids feel abandoned even when they are living 24/7 in the same house.
shepherdess - Nov 16, 2007 2:01 pm (#2242 of 2486)
Since we have not heard Hermione complain about her parents, tell Ron how lucky he is to have a mum who cares as much as Molly does, or make comments like "I wish I could talk to my parents about things, but they just wouldn't understand"; and since Hermione was obviously upset about having to do what she did with her parents (as evidenced by her comments and emotions in DH and proving that she loves them), I would assume that they had a good relationship, and that she probably wrote to them often and kept them informed of everything she could (and probably more than we think she would have). But would we really want to read (and would Jo really want to write) 7 years worth of "Hermione, having finished all her homework, was now writing a letter to her parents", "as Harry and Ron were searching the library shelves for useful books, Hermione sat at the table writing a letter to her mum", "Hermione sat in the stands watching the Quiditch practice and writing a letter to her dad" and "she left them to go write (yet another) letter to her parents"? I think it's like bathing and brushing teeth; Jo left it to us to assume that it happened "off screen".
I suppose it's possible that (know-it-all) Hermione might have just taken it upon herself to remove her parents' memories and send them off to another country without discussing it with them first because it was "what was best". But I also think it's possible that she did talk to them and tried to explain the situation, perhaps even succeeding in conveying the gravity of the situation and making the danger to them perfectly clear. I can see them flatly refusing to go hide in some dark hole somewhere while their 17 (18?) year old daughter went off who-knows-where with two boys (men?) for who-knows-how-long doing who-knows-what and facing who-knows-what-kind of dangers and possibly getting herself killed. I can see them insisting that Hermione go into hiding with them if they had to go.
I can see Hermione weighing her options and deciding that, since she has to go with Harry and Ron to help with the task Dumbledore left; and since her parents are refusing to cooperate with her, the best thing for all concerned would be to modify their memories (so they wouldn't worry themselves sick or try to do something stupid/heroic), send them somewhere else (so LV wouldn't try to get to Harry through Hermione through her parents), thus allowing her to do what she needed to do to help destroy LV. I can see it being a painful decision for her.
And think how different the book might have turned out had she not done that. What if her parents had made her go into hiding with them instead of going with Harry and Ron? What if the Granger's had agreed to go to Australia without the memory modifications, then after months of not hearing from her deciding they couldn't stand it any more and coming back to search for her?
Had she not done what she did; and had the horcrux hunt gone on without her, Voldemort might have won.
Solitaire - Nov 17, 2007 11:36 am (#2243 of 2486)
Very well reasoned, Shepherdess. I find your assessment of Hermione's actions and the reasoning behind them absolutely sound, in light of all we know about her. I've never considered her actions with her parents to be presumptuous. I believe she did the only compassionate thing she could think to do, under the circumstances, to protect her parents and prevent any unnecessary grief or suffering.
Solitaire
Soul Search - Nov 17, 2007 12:27 pm (#2244 of 2486)
It had to have been difficult for Hermione to remove Harry and herself from her parents memories and cause them to move to Australia. In effect, for a time, Hermione had no parents!
Her breakdown when she tells Harry and Ron "Wendell and Monica Wilkins don't know they that they've got a daughter, you see" clearly demonstrates she is upset by the actions she really had to take and worried that it won't all work out.
Vox Gerbilis - Nov 17, 2007 7:11 pm (#2245 of 2486)
What I find unnerving about Hermione and other muggleborn Hogwarts students is that their parents are allowing them to cut themselves off from the "normal" world and enter a completely unknown world at the age of 11. What sort of parent would let their kid forego a normal education and future in order to embrace a world they never knew existed? How does the Hogwarts administration persuade them to do this? And what happens to the kid's relationship with the muggle family, not just the parents, but the grandparents, aunts, uncles, etc who otherwise would have gotten regular updates about the child's schooling and other plans? Obviously, these issues are never discussed because they are irrelevant to the HP storyline, but they arise nonetheless because muggleborn wizards are an important part of the story. I would love to have JKR address these in a sequel work. (I have similar questions about muggles who marry into the WW.)
Solitaire - Nov 17, 2007 9:01 pm (#2246 of 2486)
what happens to the kid's relationship with the muggle family, not just the parents, but the grandparents, aunts, uncles, etc who otherwise would have gotten regular updates about the child's schooling and other plans?
Several posts back, I said I felt this aspect of the Potterverse would provide JK with rich material for many short stories. I hope this is something she does someday. She could write a volume dealing with some of the Muggle-borns we have met in our sojourn in the world of Harry Potter. I would love to know about some of their early magical experiences and learn how they manage to maintain a life that straddles two worlds, the Magical and the Muggle.
Solitaire
Mrs. Sirius - Nov 17, 2007 10:11 pm (#2247 of 2486)
What sort of parent would let their kid forego a normal education and future in order to embrace a world they never knew existed? How does the Hogwarts administration persuade them to do this? Vox
Vox I think many parents make that decision regularly. Think of a gymnastic prodigies, or even the deaf student, for whom an education at deaf school is the best answer. These student have to often leave home to live at schools far from home, sometimes even in different states. They may attend intensive training camps for additional time away from home. My state has a deaf school to which children from all over the northeast of the USA were sent to attend. (the pendulum has swung again to mainstreaming at the local school)
I was a hugh Olympics fan, and actually watched the heartwarming videos about the competitors lives. Many of these kids talked about moving away from home to live closer to coaches or training facilities with infrequent opportunities to visit their families. Given the right opportunities to advance or deficit of opportunities at local areas, I think not to strange for parents to permit their children to be far from home with limited contact.
Solitaire - Nov 19, 2007 8:04 am (#2248 of 2486)
Very good analogy, Mrs. Sirius. I think musical prodigies are sometimes sent to live and study with their coach/teachers, as well. I even knew such a kid when I was in grammar school. Hm ... I'd not considered it that way before.
Solitaire
wynnleaf - Nov 19, 2007 8:20 am (#2249 of 2486)
The deaf analogy is a good one, especially since the deaf child can grow up in a completely different culture than the parents.
As regards whether or not Hermione's actions toward her parents was presumptuous, I don't see how it can be anything but. She "presumed" to take their right of choice away from them, presuming that she knew best, and presuming that it would be better for them to live without ever remembering her than to risk dying while loving her. Those were all their choices to make. Of course Hermione was presumptuous to take those choices away.
Soul Search - Nov 19, 2007 9:49 am (#2250 of 2486)
Hermione was also "presumptuous" with Harry and Ron. She packed all their things into the beaded bag, including Ron's underpants when they came out of the wash. She planned everything without really consulting them. Good thing. Without Hermione's planning and preparation they all would have been in deep trouble. In a large sense, it was Hermione who defeated Voldemort.
I wonder if Hermione, especially, and Ron ever got the recognition they deserved. In the Epilogue Ron makes a facetious comment about being famous. I took this to mean he wasn't famous and the wizarding world never learned the whole story of Voldemort's defeat.
Harry would be quite famous: a large audience saw him "kill" Voldemort (even though that wasn't exactly what happened.) Even in Hogwarts, no one saw Hermione or Ron do anything. None of the trio ever used the word "horcrux" to anyone else (except Harry to Voldemort during their very intense fight.)
The most the wizarding world would know of Hermione's and Ron's role in Voldemort's defeat would be that they accompanied Harry when he successfully robbed Gringots. And none knew why!
My read of Hermione would be that she would not want the wizarding world to know of her true role in Voldemort's defeat. Ron may appreciate a little fame, but would be mostly satisfied with his association with Harry, like he was since the age of eleven.
I wonder if the trio ever told the whole story. And to whom.
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Victoire Weasley - Nov 19, 2007 10:42 am (#2251 of 2486)
What sort of parent would let their kid forego a normal education and future in order to embrace a world they never knew existed? Vox
I agree, many parents would not let their children do this. But we know that some parents were happy to have this happen to their families. Petunia says that her parents "were proud of having a witch in the family!" PS/SS p. 66 For them it was just a sacrifice they were willing to make.
We only see the Grangers looking "apprehensive" and "nervous" so we don't know that they felt the way the Evans' did. But they let Hermione go. Dumbledore or anyone else wouldn't have been able to force them. But I don't think they could have known what they were getting into.
I wonder if the trio ever told the whole story. And to whom. Soul Search
I think the whole story would have come out because there would no longer be anything or anyone to hide from danger. But it does seem like the whole Horcrux thing might not come up. They won't even write about it in most books. Maybe they just say "He found a way to split his soul into 8 pieces, but we won't say how."
shepherdess - Nov 19, 2007 12:46 pm (#2252 of 2486)
I agree that Hermione is presumptuous at times and is something of a know-it-all. And I agree that she did presume to take away her parent's choices. I prefer to think that she only did that as a last resort. But what choice did she have?
The fact is--Harry wouldn't have made it without her. Yes, Harry's brave and all that; but he wouldn't have figured out everything on his own-at least not in time to save the WW from LV. (And who would have saved him from the snake at Bathilda Bagshot's house?) She had to help Harry.
She also had to protect her family. LV wanted Harry. He would use any means possible to get to him. If Hermione is with him, LV would do anything necessary to get to her. Her parents simply would not be safe anywhere in Britain. They needed to go away, as they would not have been able to protect themselves from LV/DE's. If they were tortured (and they remembered Hermione), they would not be able to resist giving information that could be used against Hermione and/or Harry, possibly leading to LV capturing/killing Harry before he could destroy the horcruxes--which had to be done.
Sending her parents away without modifying their memories would have been enough if it was certain that they would not come back and put themselves/Hermione/Harry (and Ron) in danger before LV was dead, and if they would agree to go willingly and leave their daughter to go on a dangerous mission from which she might never return. Both of those things would have been asking a lot from any parents who love their child. I can't see the Grangers agreeing to it.
Either the Granger's knew what was going on (and probably didn't want to leave or let Hermione leave), or they didn't know. Either way, Hermione made the decision to do what she did. Yes, it took away their choices, and yes it was presumptuous. But, I think it was necessary too. What else could she have done?
wynnleaf - Nov 19, 2007 1:39 pm (#2253 of 2486)
And I agree that she did presume to take away her parent's choices. I prefer to think that she only did that as a last resort. But what choice did she have? (sheperdess)
This is the whole problem with Hermione's viewpoint, as far as I understand her viewpoint. What choice did she have if she wanted to make sure her parents stayed safe? Well, how about let them make the decision for themselves as regards how much risk or safety they needed or wanted? If we, the readers, could understand the dangers, so could her parents if she'd been willing to tell them the truth. Then they could make an informed decision based on their own wishes and willingness to accept risk, not Hermione's wishes.
See, with Hermione, I read her as thinking what she thinks people need is in fact exactly what they need. So if their choice wouldn't be to do exactly as Hermione thinks is best, well, what choice does she have, but to take their choice away from them? After all, Hermione knows best. What she wants to happen must happen. That's her attitude. It's exactly the same as her attitude with the house elves.
Steve Newton - Nov 19, 2007 2:33 pm (#2254 of 2486)
If the parents make a decision to stay than they could well be used as leverage to get to the trio. They had to go. The potential to save lives would seem to overcome their freedom of choice.
wynnleaf - Nov 19, 2007 2:38 pm (#2255 of 2486)
If the parents make a decision to stay than they could well be used as leverage to get to the trio. They had to go. The potential to save lives would seem to overcome their freedom of choice. (Steve Newton)
Given what a persuasive point that is (that the parents could be used against the Trio), don't you think if Hermione had explained that to her parents, they would have been willing to hide without being obliviated? I imagine they're fairly bright folks, after all.
Hermione seems to be more focused on their safety, which is fine, but it means that her decision to send them to Australia probably wasn't to protect the Trio.
megfox* - Nov 19, 2007 3:41 pm (#2256 of 2486)
My biggest concern with this line of thinking is this (and we may have already covered it, but I don't remember it being brought up, so sorry if we have)...
We know that memory charms can be broken, but to do so can cause some other irreparable damage. Did Hermione know this? Harry certainly does. Dumbledore shared that with him when they were discussing Bertha Jorkins. As Voldemort himself explains, after he had broken the memory charms placed on her, she was "worthless". I always took that to mean that she was broken, in a mental and physical sense, to the point she couldn't even be Imperiused enough to be sent back to England to live her life. This raised a red flag for some (if not the right people) as she never returned from her holiday, but it (disposing of her) was obviously a better answer than sending her back.
So, to get to my point, Hermione didn't know that it would be better to change her parent's memories, especially given the fact that later in the same book, she claims that she has never modified a memory, so she couldn't have been very proficient in the magic required behind it - however, I digress. I understand that it might make them harder to find, but what if they were found? They would probably be in more danger of permanent damage, and they would have given up at least some details that could have been used to track down Hermione, Ron and Harry.
How much would this have helped the Death Eaters exactly? Well, we don't know how much Hermione shares with her parents, but I think that point is moot. The point is that, IMO, she put her parents in more danger of being seriously, to the point of irreparably, damaged if they were tracked down.
On the topic of a "normal" education versus a magic one, I agree with the idea of sending children with prodigial skills to special institutions to help them excel. However, think about it the other way around. What if parents wouldn't send their magic children to a place where they could learn how to control, use, and develop their talents? Unfortunately, I could see some parents (Dursley-like) who would "put their foots down" against sending their children to a "freak school". What would happen to their children then?
I think I might have the answer to this - remember how Dumbledore convinced the matron at the orphanage, Mrs. Cole, that he had explained to her already what was going on and she had agreed to it? He passed her a blank piece of paper from her desk, instructed her to read it, and then Confunded her (or Imperiused her, its kind of unclear here I think), so that she agreed with him. Whether this is ethical or not in terms of parent's rights, is it the best course of action for the children? Because really, what would happen if parents refused?
Denise P. - Nov 19, 2007 4:09 pm (#2257 of 2486)
I would think Hermione does know that memory charms can cause damage. I also think that when Voldemort removed the charm on others, he was not overly concerned about any possible damage. Hermione would be and take more care in removing it, I think. Knowing Hermione, I doubt she would have attempted something on her parents that would 100% cause damage but we know she is clever, I trust her that she would have researched enough to know the possible pitfalls associated with the charm.
megfox* - Nov 19, 2007 4:19 pm (#2258 of 2486)
Oh, I have complete confidence in Hermione's ability to remove the charm from her parents herself; my concern was with Voldemort or a Death Eater being overly zealous in the removal of it. If her parents were found, I think this puts them in more danger, not less.
Soul Search - Nov 19, 2007 5:18 pm (#2259 of 2486)
My thought was Hermione didn't so much as cast the memory charm to fool death eaters but so her parents would accept their new names and move to Australia. The name change and move were the primary protections.
If no one knew their names had been changed and they had moved then death eaters would have no way to find them. They could look all over England and not find a hint of them. Death Eaters would have no way of discovering they should be looking in Australia.
haymoni - Nov 19, 2007 6:39 pm (#2260 of 2486)
If Hermione hadn't done this to her parents, we would all be asking why she didn't bother to protect them.
Poor girl doesn't stand a chance with us.
Denise P. - Nov 19, 2007 6:56 pm (#2261 of 2486)
I actually don't have a problem with Hermione having done this. I also would not have batted an eye if it had never been mentioned.
wynnleaf - Nov 19, 2007 7:02 pm (#2262 of 2486)
Haymoni, for me at least, my disquiet with Hermione is not quite the way you're interpreting it.
It's easy to assume there were only two choices. Hermione can obliviate her parents and hide them against their wishes, or they can risk death. Where's the choice in which Hermione presents the true danger to her parents, maybe even how their capture by DEs could endanger Hermione and her friends, and convinces them to agree to be hidden? I'm not displeased with Hermione's desire to protect her parents. I'm displeased with her considering that their rights weren't as important as what she wanted.
But on a completely other level, it concerns me if JKR is trying to present Hermione's choice as a valid and responsible choice. Supposedly, a great deal of the HP series is about "choices," yet we often see the "good guys" making wrong choices, or unethical choices and we get no sense that their wrong choices are a problem.
Oh, sure, we see that some of their teenage squabbles come back to haunt them, or they feel remorse about it -- Ron's jealousy for instance. But the more truly serious wrong or questionable choices are brushed aside as if they are nothing.
So Hermione and the Trio obliviate, use Unforgiveables, leave fellow school children hexed into unconsciousness for hours (GOF and OOTP) and then walk over them telling no one of their plight, refuse to give info to help the injured Montague in OOTP, etc. and nothing at all is said or done to show that any of these actions was even questionable behavior, much less actually wrong.
In this case the excuse is given that JKR had Hermione obliviate her parents as a convenient way for JKR to get them into safety and out of the way. Just how much less convenient would it have been to have Hermione instead say that she'd convinced her parents that if the DEs captured them they could be used against Hermione, or get vital information from them and thus convinced them to go into hiding like the Dursleys? See? It didn't take me but one sentence to write it.
Vox Gerbilis - Nov 19, 2007 7:40 pm (#2263 of 2486)
Megfox, in DH, Lupin says that before the Death Eaters took over the ministry, wizarding parents had the option of educating their children at home or sending them abroad. Are you suggesting that Muggle parents did not, and indeed could not, have this option as well?
The Wizarding World absorption of Muggle-born wizards is a key part of the HP plot. The flip side of that, i.e., the departure of muggle-borns from their muggle families and societies, is not part of the plot, and never dealt with. While that omission doesn't create a plot hole, it does create a hole in the fabric of the Potterverse. The most parsimonious, rational explanation, is that muggle-born wizards are simply separated cleanly and completely from their families for the best interests of both worlds. However, Hermione's ongoing relationship (such as it is) with her parents, and references to Lily's ongoing relationship with the Evanses, negate this explanation. So we're left with a slew of unanswered questions about how much the muggle families know, how much control do they retain over their children, how much contact/affection can still take place, etc. We can't completely ignore these questions because they often arise with Hermione, especially with respect to her modification of her parents' memories.
I'm not convinced that the boarding schools for deaf students, or special training for gifted athletes or artists is an apt analogy. Parents in these situations have some idea of the comparative costs and benefits, and of the risks. They don't need to keep it a secret. The HP situation would be more akin to parents handing their child over to a secret society they'd never heard of before, because that society contends that the child has been born with special talents that only the society can understand and foster. (I can't think of any real world examples here. The closest I can come up with is the King of the Hill episode when monks from Khan's religion claim that Bobby is their reincarnated leader.) It's incomprehensible that parents would simply say "sure, see you next summer."
shepherdess - Nov 19, 2007 8:02 pm (#2264 of 2486)
But if Hermione did convince her parents of how much danger they were in, it would have become apparent that she was in just as much, if not more, danger. As her parents, they would want her safe probably even more than she wanted them safe.
If she let them decide, I don't believe they would have willingly gone anywhere without her. They might have insisted she go with them. They might have forbidden her to go with Harry. What then? Does she respect their wishes and say: "sorry, Harry, you're on your own" and head off to Australia? Does she say: "sorry, mum and dad, but I'm going and you can't stop me" then walk out hoping that they'll just pack up and go to Australia? Obviously, neither of those options would be good.
So--just what should she have done? What could she have done to insure the safety of her parents and make sure that Harry gets the help and support that he needs to destroy the horcruxes and LV?
BTW-I'm enjoying this discussion, wynnleaf, and I hope you don't think I'm just being argumentative and trying to prove you wrong.
Michael Franz - Nov 19, 2007 8:18 pm (#2265 of 2486)
So--just what should she have done?
Well, is there some particular reason she couldn't have modified their memories after giving them the choice? If they refused, then maybe Hermione might have a point. But why not even give them the chance? And, again, why do the slime-sucking Dursleys get to know the truth and not the Grangers?
All of these arguments really boil down to the idea that Hermione's Muggle parents are too inferior to make decisions for themselves, so Hermione and wizards in general should make their decisions for them for the greater good. Heil Grindelwald!
If that's what Hermione thinks, then why is she fighting against Voldemort?
megfox* - Nov 19, 2007 8:36 pm (#2266 of 2486)
To be honest, I am on the fence about how I feel regarding Hermione's choice to delete her parent's memories of her. I just think that, knowing how powerful the Death Eaters are (and I mean as a whole), there is the possibility that her parents could be located. And if they were found, there is a greater danger of harm.
I actually think that sending them to Australia was kind of a genius stroke, both by Hermione and JKR, as a way to eliminate the problem of, "How would Hermione's parents respond to her taking off into hiding for a year with two boys, and all three of them are in constant mortal peril?" For the other two, the issue is better resolved by the plot up to this point - all of Harry's parental figures, save the Weasleys (I'll get to them in a moment), have been eliminated from the picture, and Ron's parents are in the thick of the fight, and even though Molly doesn't want them to go, she knows that they are going to, and Arthur even helps prepare a plausible story for Ron's absence for when they do leave (the ghoul in pajamas with spattergoit). I just wondered if other people saw this as another potential downfall of her plan.
As for Muggle parents having the choice to "home-school" their wizard children, I don't think that would work, do you? One of the points of Hogwarts is to help students learn to control their magical ability. If they don't, they could be dangerous, even deadly. I don't see the difference between sending a Muggle-born to Hogwarts as opposed to sending them to Beauxbatons or Durmstrang or wherever overseas. The issue is more about, how do you explain to and convince Muggle parents of the extreme need for their children to go away to boarding school if it wasn't the original plan. What if an 11 year-old wizard's parents are like the Dursleys and refuse to allow their child to be trained? Not all families are going to be like the Grangers and allow their child to be taken away by someone claiming to be able to do magic. I am thinking of Fudge's response to the Muggle Prime Minister - "Why didn't anyone tell me about this before?" Fudge - "Are you ever going to tell anyone?"
I have talked myself into a corner... I am not sure where to go from here, hehe... Sometimes I wonder if I post just to play devil's advocate. I am not actually sure where I stand on either of these issues the more I think about it!
wynnleaf - Nov 19, 2007 9:11 pm (#2267 of 2486)
If she let them decide, I don't believe they would have willingly gone anywhere without her. They might have insisted she go with them. They might have forbidden her to go with Harry. What then? Does she respect their wishes and say: "sorry, Harry, you're on your own" and head off to Australia? Does she say: "sorry, mum and dad, but I'm going and you can't stop me" then walk out hoping that they'll just pack up and go to Australia? Obviously, neither of those options would be good. (Sheperdess)
First important point is that Hermione was of age and her parent s would know that they couldn't dictate what Hermione could or couldn't do at that point. If Hermione made it clear that she was going with Harry, and that if her parents did not hide they could be used against her, I think it's more likely they'd have gone into hiding.
However, suppose her parents decided that they would rather stay in England to be near their daughter, regardless of the risks, rather than go to Australia?
Well, okay. They weren't children. They weren't senile. They weren't mentally unbalanced. If it's Hermione's decision to risk her life to help Harry, why don't her parents deserve the right to decide when to risk their lives? See, this is Hermione's problem. She wants the right to make her own decisions, but she also wants to make her parents decisions as well and would not give them the same rights she asserted for herself.
I'm glad you're enjoying the discussion. Many times Hermione's choices create excellent ethical questions and are fun to hash out.
Denise P. - Nov 19, 2007 9:34 pm (#2268 of 2486)
First important point is that Hermione was of age and her parent s would know that they couldn't dictate what Hermione could or couldn't do at that point.
Actually, I don't think she was. She was certainly of age in the wizarding world at 17 but in the muggle world, isn't it 18?
It doesn't make much difference in terms of her decision to modify their memories though. I think she would have done it even if she had not been of age, confident in not only her ability to cast it but to remove it at a later date with no harm done to her parents. Although, I would imagine that they would have been less than pleased when they found out what had been done, no matter how well intentioned Hermione had been.
Michael Franz - Nov 19, 2007 10:12 pm (#2269 of 2486)
She was certainly of age in the wizarding world at 17 but in the muggle world, isn't it 18?
Yes, but she is a wizard, and as such, wizarding law applies. What are her parents going to do, call Child Services and tell them their daughter's a runaway witch?
What happened to the Grangers' dental practice while they were "away"? Did Hermione irrevocably damage their careers? Did they have any Muggle friends who reported them as missing? Did Hermione even care? Oh, but she was saving their lives, so that justifies anything. I say she should have erased her own memory because her parents are clearly better off without her.
Just in case I'm not angry enough about this, let's say Hermione removes the memory charm from her parents and explains everything. Then, let's say her parents decide to contact the Ministry and press charges against her. Oh, sure, she could just erase their memory again — but that would prove beyond a shadow of a doubt the immorality of her actions. At that point, even Ron would turn her in.
PeskyPixie - Nov 19, 2007 10:59 pm (#2270 of 2486)
re: Muggles sending their kids off to schools of magic.
The explanation from a Hogwarts representative must be disbelief followed by relief for Muggle parents as their child has probably exhibited special abilities from an early age. I'm sure some parents are devastated by the news, but many must be happy that there's a reason why their child is able to do all sorts of weird stuff.
re: Hermione taking the decision to change her parents's identities and memories and ship them off to Australia.
I suppose the main debate here is whether or not Hermione has the right to save her parents from potential death, or whether her parents have the right to choose to make themselves readily accessible for possible torture and death. I understand the arguments of both sides, however, personally, I don't blame Hermione in her choice because her parents are Muggles and thus completely defenseless against Death Eaters. This is not about 'Magic is Might'; it's about protecting the innocent and helpless.
There comes a time in life when children have to take responsibility for their parents. War makes this moment occur prematurely for Hermione.
shepherdess - Nov 19, 2007 11:40 pm (#2271 of 2486)
I think it all boils down to this: if the two people you love most in the world choose to do something that will probably get them tortured/killed, do you step aside and let it happen out of respect for their decision, or do you do the only thing that can prevent that from happening even if that thing is immoral? If you really love them, can you allow them to basically commit suicide when they may not even fully understand the possible consequences of their choice and you are perfectly aware of the horrors they may have to endure?
We keep talking about the Granger's choice; what about Hermione's choice? Could she choose to let her parents (whom she loves) put themselves and her and Harry and, therefore, the whole WW, not to mention the muggle world in Voldemorts hands just to indulge their right to choose to stay near her?
I don't think I could. I think I would have done what she did. I think it would be better to take away one right one time in order to save countless numbers of lives. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
And at least, what was done was done out of love and compassion and was fixable. That's better than what happened to the Longbottoms and Bertha Jorkins.
wynnleaf - Nov 20, 2007 5:04 am (#2272 of 2486)
I think it all boils down to this: if the two people you love most in the world choose to do something that will probably get them tortured/killed, do you step aside and let it happen out of respect for their decision, or do you do the only thing that can prevent that from happening even if that thing is immoral? (Sheperdess)
I suppose the main debate here is whether or not Hermione has the right to save her parents from potential death, or whether her parents have the right to choose to make themselves readily accessible for possible torture and death. (PeskyPixie)
That's not the main debate, only a secondary one, because as far as we can tell the Grangers never got asked what their choice was in the first place. So Hermione never learned whether they'd have chosen to hide or not. She decided not to even give them a choice. So the first question is this: Did the Grangers, two intelligent and responsible adults, have the right to learn what the dangers were and choose whether to go into hiding or not?
And then, let's suppose they decided not to go into hiding? Even if Hermione was going to send them into hiding by force as a last resort (this was by force, you understand), didn't they at least deserve the choice of 1. go into hiding knowingly or 2. have your memories obliviated and be sent into hiding by force.
See, I don't think Hermione would have ever said, "Mum and Dad, if you don't go into hiding, I'll obliviate you and send you into hiding anyway and if I die, you'll never remember I even existed." Why wouldn't she tell them that? Well, if she did say that, it would probably work, because it's really quite a nasty threat. Sounds pretty horrible if she actually put it into words, right?
Now, assuming they were choosing to stay and not hide, even after being told that they might die or be tortured or both. Shouldn't Hermione protect them?
Well, here's a real life situation. Your parent has a medical problem that could kill them. They are perfectly in possession of their senses and they have all the medical facts. They choose to use an alternative type of medicine that you think probably won't work and you think the chances are a whole lot better to have the surgery done that would probably save them. Do you have the right to kidnap them, drug them into insensibility, and force them into surgery?
No, you don't. Just because you love a parent doesn't give you the right to take their rights away, solely because you don't like their choices and think they are too dangerous.
Denise P. - Nov 20, 2007 6:16 am (#2273 of 2486)
That's not the main debate, only a secondary one, because as far as we can tell the Grangers never got asked what their choice was in the first place. So Hermione never learned whether they'd have chosen to hide or not. She decided not to even give them a choice.
I think it is a pretty big leap to say that Hermion never asked them to go into hiding or told them about the danger they faced. Knowing what we do of Hermione, it is very likely she *did* implore them, hands wringing, to go into hiding.
I really think that Hermione DID explain the situation to them, they didn't take it seriously enough and that is when Hermione decided to do the deed. We know Harry (or someone) explained it to the Dursleys. Even after that and even with Petunia having a marginal clue based on Voldermort Round 1, Vernon still wanted to be difficult (I know, it is his nature)
I think it is giving Hermione too little credit to assume that she just whipped out her wand to erase memories without giving her parents at least an opportunity to go into Wizarding Muggle Protection on their own. Hermione just didn't like their choice and when her logic didn't sway them into her way of thinking, then she whipped her wand out and took away their choice.
Or, here is another scenario that should be considered. Perhaps after learning of the danger they faced, Hermione gave them the CHOICE to have their memories modified with the assurance it would be reversed when they were out of danger. I can see where Hermione would have told them she was safe at Hogwarts. At the point in time that this took place, even though Harry said he was not going back to Hogwarts, she was probably under the mistaken impression that she could talk him into going back.
Barbara J - Nov 20, 2007 6:33 am (#2274 of 2486)
That's an interesting analogy [wynnleaf's medical decision-making illustration]. But it doesn't solve the problem of how to make your parents go away for a year. I can't imagine they would have willingly sent her off on the trio's quest and promised to stay out of the way, knowing that she could be killed at any moment. And even if they were in hiding in Britain, she cannot afford to be worrying constantly about their safety. I don't think she'd be able to be in contact with them on a regular basis, for fear of drawing attention -- so if she can't see them or talk to them, and they have to go into hiding anyway, why not at least send them far away? If she is protecting them herself, she's not helping Harry. If she's relying on others to protect them, again, why not take the extra step of placing them somewhere where they will be far removed from the action?
Throughout the books, Hermione did a lot of planning and researched everything to death. Under time constraints, she did something to her parents that she thought would protect them. As with other actions in the books, doing the "right" thing is not always as easy or straightforward as it seems. I would agree that her decision reveals a tendency we already know about her -- to think that she knows what's best for other people. But I don't think her character deserves some of the harsher criticism she's getting.
Here's another analogy, instead of surgery, because I think most people would balk at compelling surgery. But what about parents who can't live at home any longer, but don't want to leave? Some people choose to let their parents stay at home in various states of hygeiene while their houses basically fall down around them. Others move their parents into assisted living facilities or nursing homes, often over the parents' very strong objections, because that will improve the parents' quality of life. I am thinking of a situation close to me where an elderly parent would have been dead over a year ago, because of memory issues that were causing her to medicate herself inappropriately, if her family had not moved her to another place where her medications are supervised. She is healthy now, has made friends, and is living closer to her family. Some people would say she should have been allowed to choose to stay at home and, basically, kill herself.
Wynnleaf, I can hear you pointing out that in some of these situations the parent may have issues of mental competence, while the Grangers, as far as we know, are perfectly competent to make their own decisions. Point taken. : ) I'm just saying that what's right and wrong are not always clear cut; what's right for one family may be wrong for another. Despite Hermione's problem with being a bit of a know-it-all, she is very often right, and we know she does not make hasty decisions...so I think we need to cut her just a little more slack on this one.
[Edited just to clarify which post was being referenced.]
wynnleaf - Nov 20, 2007 7:25 am (#2275 of 2486)
As to whether or not Hermione would have tried to convince her parents first, I don't think we have any evidence to say that she did. First, she never mentions any sort of disagreement with her parents. Second, as I said before, she's a witch and her parents know it. If she actually had told them "if you don't go into hiding, I'll obliviate you and you'll never remember me if I die," then I think chances are 99% that they would have gone into hiding, because no one would want to be obliviated of practically all of their memories. See the point? It's such a horrible thing to do to someone, that I think we can pretty much assume that even if Hermione did ask her parents to go into hiding, she never told them what she would do to them if they didn't do it.
And this is very similar to Hermione's actions of the past - having students sign a club list without telling them that the list is jinxed; leaving hats around for the house elves to pick up inadvertently to force them into freedom against their wishes; confunding another person at the quidditch tryouts so that Ron could be the best, and so on. Hermione is "scary" just like Ron and Harry sometimes say.
As regards likening the situation to forcing a person to have surgery, I think it's quite apropos, since Hermione was dramatically altering their minds in a very possibly permanent manner. That is just as invasive as forcing someone to have some major surgery like a heart bi-pass.
Yes, Hermione's intentions were good in the sense that she wanted to keep people she cared about safe. However, this is another instance of Hermione's ethics being extremely flexible when it comes to whatever she wants, and another example of her "Hermione knows best" attitude. This doesn't make Hermione a "bad" person, but it is one of her several major flaws throughout the books.
shepherdess - Nov 20, 2007 3:44 pm (#2276 of 2486)
If she actually had told them "if you don't go into hiding, I'll obliviate you and you'll never remember me if I die," then I think chances are 99% that they would have gone into hiding, because no one would want to be obliviated of practically all of their memories.~~wynnleaf
But using threats like that is coercion. They would be agreeing to go into hiding under duress. It's still force. You're still taking their choice away. The only difference is they would know they were being forced. And then you run the risk of them changing their minds and breaking the agreement. And then everyone's in danger once again.
Lovely little moral/ethical dilemma Jo's created for us, huh?
wynnleaf - Nov 20, 2007 7:12 pm (#2277 of 2486)
But using threats like that is coercion. They would be agreeing to go into hiding under duress. It's still force. You're still taking their choice away. (sheperdess)
Yes, indeed it is coercion. But at least then the parents have a chance to keep from getting obliviated.
Maybe part of it is that as a parent I know that almost any parent who loved their child would pay practically any price to keep from totally loosing their memories of their children. It's that horrible a thing to do. Going into hiding would certainly not be too high a price. Hermione may be clueless, but that doesn't make the threat of obliviating her parents any less terrible. And Hermione couldn't have given her parents that choice. Oh, it's still coercion and it's still unethical, but it is at least a choice to not be obliviated. I feel certain Hermione never told them she'd obliviate them if they didn't hide voluntarily.
On top of anything else, JKR believes too much in the value of the love of a parent to a child. I highly doubt that in her imagination, unwritten on the page, Hermione's parents chose to have all of their memories of their only child taken away.
Michael Franz - Nov 20, 2007 11:22 pm (#2278 of 2486)
You know, I think Rita Skeeter might want to know the details of this incident. Revenge, sweet revenge.
(Rita's an unregistered Animagus, you say? Merely a desperate attempt to attack the messenger. Besides, the Animagus records mysteriously disappeared during Voldemort's reign over the Ministry.)
rambkowalczyk - Nov 21, 2007 5:36 pm (#2279 of 2486)
That's not the main debate, only a secondary one, because as far as we can tell the Grangers never got asked what their choice was in the first place. So Hermione never learned whether they'd have chosen to hide or not. She decided not to even give them a choice. So the first question is this: Did the Grangers, two intelligent and responsible adults, have the right to learn what the dangers were and choose whether to go into hiding or not? wynnleaf
Correct me if I am wrong but there is nothing in the book that says Hermione did not discuss this with her parents. (or for that matter that she did).
The book says plainly I've also modified my parents' memories so that they're convinced they're really called Wendell and Monica Wilkins and that their life's ambition is to move to Australia, which they now have done. That makes it more difficult to track them down and interrogate them about me--or you, because unfortunately, I've told them quite a bit about you. Assuming I survive our hunt for the Horcruxes, I find Mum and Dad and lift the enchantment. If I don't--well, I think I've cast a good enough charm to keep them safe and happy. Wendell and Monica Wilkins don't know they've got a daughter, you see."
I will acknowledge that Hermione does have a habit of thinking she is right and therefore everything she does must be right and that it would be arrogant if she modified her parents memories without their permission.
I can see a possible conversation she might have explaining why she must stay and help Harry. She could also detail the danger her parents are in as well as the danger to her and Harry if the parents were captured and tortured by Death Eaters. Why couldn't her parents volunteer and say look if it helps erase our memories so we can't hurt you.
Ron says that House affiliation sometimes runs in families. Hermiones parents could be true Gryffindors willing to sacrifice their memories to help their daughter.
shepherdess - Nov 21, 2007 11:14 pm (#2280 of 2486)
Hermiones parents could be true Gryffindors willing to sacrifice their memories to help their daughter.
Gee, I hadn't even thought about that. Perhaps, because of our knowledge of Hermione's tendency toward making decisions for others, we could be judging her too quickly.
wynnleaf - Nov 22, 2007 1:58 am (#2281 of 2486)
Let's assume they agreed to this. Then why would they agree to Hermione taking all of their memories of her? If Hermione, on her first attempt, is good enough to change her parents memories so that they knew nothing of her, and could give them a full backstory without her in it, why couldn't she have changed their memories to only remove the memories that could have been harmful if discovered? Then they could go into hiding voluntarily without all the other elaborate part.
No, it doesn't make sense that they'd be willing for all this to take place, but still need their memories so completely changed.
And remember about what Voldemort's done in the past. Changing their memories wasn't going to keep Voldemort from getting the memories if he found them. He could get at obliviated memories. The main part about changing their memories would be so that they'd be willing to hidden. If they had been given a choice about going into hiding and were willing to do it then why change their memories so completely?
And once again, with JKR's general take on loving parents, they might die for their child, but I doubt if JKR imagined them willing to lose all their memories of the child. Further, given the way JKR has written Hermione in the past, it's more likely that she imagined Hermione doing this on her own in a "Hermione knows best" kind of decision.
I'm curious, why are so many so desirous of arguing that Hermione must have asked her parents? It's far more "in character" for Hermione to have made the decision herself.
haymoni - Nov 22, 2007 5:52 am (#2282 of 2486)
I'm not implying that there were only 2 choices.
I just meant that we are such a picky bunch we might have been critical of whatever Hermione did or did not do.
I agree w/ wynnleaf - Hermione made the decision herself.
Solitaire - Nov 22, 2007 6:19 am (#2283 of 2486)
I think it is all in one's perspective. Some do not like Hermione's tactics and choose to consider her manipulative and presumptuous. I prefer to give her the benefit of the doubt and ascribe purer motives to her. I choose to consider her as tender-hearted. I believe she knew that her parents would be broken-hearted if she should die, so she was trying to spare them any unnecessary pain or danger. Disagree if you must ... it's your choice.
Solitaire
Denise P. - Nov 22, 2007 6:57 am (#2284 of 2486)
I believe Hermione comes by her personality naturally.....she gets it from her parents. As my dad is fond of saying, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Since I do think that, I also choose to believe that she did ask her parents before high handedly obliviating.
We have nothing canon to suggest she did ask, we have nothing canon to suggest she did not ask. Truly, the before part was not pertinant to the story. Only the part where she acutally performed the charm was important to the story.
I agree with Soli, it depends on how you view Hermione on how you choose to view her actions. I just don't believe, no matter how bossy she can be, that she would just obliviate first and ask questions later.
We can all agree to disagree on if she asked or not
Steve Newton - Nov 22, 2007 7:21 am (#2285 of 2486)
As far as I can tell her actions were required. Her parents could have been captured and used to manipulate Hermione and the trio and so harming the wizarding world. Thousands of lives were on the line. Since Voldemort used the families of other resisting wizards I see no reason to think that he would not have used the Grangers.
wynnleaf - Nov 22, 2007 7:22 am (#2286 of 2486)
I think it is all in one's perspective. Some do not like Hermione's tactics and choose to consider her manipulative and presumptuous. I prefer to give her the benefit of the doubt and ascribe purer motives to her. I choose to consider her as tender-hearted. I believe she knew that her parents would be broken-hearted if she should die, so she was trying to spare them any unnecessary pain or danger. (Solitaire)
I am uncertain of exactly the comparison you are trying to make. It seems as though you're setting up an "either/or situation," as though Hermione's having purer motives and obliviating her parents to spare them unnecessary pain or danger is incompatible with her actions being manipulative and presumptuous.
A great many people can easily do manipulative things for tenderhearted reasons. And it's by no means incompatible to do something unethical -- like take someone's rightful decision from them -- all because you care about them.
I suppose this is also a kind of ethical question. A great many people (and I'm not saying you, Solitaire), think that motivation changes whether something is right or wrong. Sometimes it does, when it is the motivation itself that is the point in question. But in my opinion, good motives alone cannot make an unethical decision right, nor the underlying attitude of "I know best, therefore I can refuse you your right" correct.
I do not think I've argued at all that Hermione had unkind or unloving motivations, at least from her perspective. But that doesn't mean that she can't also have been arrogantly thinking she knows best.
We see this problem come up in a broader sense in societies where one group assumes the dominant rights and asserts that it is all for the best for the subjugated group, because it meets their needs better than if they had equal rights. But even if this appears true on a physical level, or even if the motivation of those taking the greater rights really is benevolent, it doesn't make it right.
It is much like Hermione's actions with the house elves. Hermione assumed that she knew more about what they needed than they did. She assumed that she had greater understanding than them regarding their own needs. Therefore, she attempted to manipulate them and deprive them of their right to choose. She didn't do it for unkind reasons. She truly was distressed at their situation. But that doesn't make her actions ethical.
Barbara J - Nov 22, 2007 8:18 am (#2287 of 2486)
...the underlying attitude of "I know best, therefore I can refuse you your right"...
This is the attitude of the WW towards house elves in general.
Hermione is less arrogant in her attempts to aid house elves, in my opinion, than youthful. As we get older we tend to see a lot more shades of gray in situations. She sees right and wrong, and steps in -- in a very Gryffindor way, I think. Gryffindors tend to take bold moves based on what they think is right and wrong, rather than going through an extensive cost/benefit analysis.
It is much like Hermione's actions with the house elves. Hermione assumed that she knew more about what they needed than they did. She assumed that she had greater understanding than them regarding their own needs. Therefore, she attempted to manipulate them and deprive them of their right to choose.
WHAT right to choose? Before she started leaving hats and socks all around, they had no choice at all. Once she started, it's very clear that they did choose -- but it was only then that they had any options.
In other social change movements there have been tensions between people who want incremental change, and people who want to sweep away barriers. Hermione simply illustrates one approach -- not the only one, surely, but one that ultimately makes others possible. She is not unethical; she's acting within a ethical system that puts a high value on fairness and action.
As for what she did to her parents' memory...I agree with Solitaire on this one. I also think the "apple doesn't fall far from the tree" point is well taken. She knows her parents better than we do, which is not hard, since JKR chose to tell us so little about them. Her actions are consistent with the rest of her personality, and so they do reveal one of her greatest flaws, but I would not call them "UN"ethical.
wynnleaf - Nov 22, 2007 8:40 am (#2288 of 2486)
I had said Hermione didn't want to give the house elves the right to choose. I'm not saying that her offer of freedom was wrong. It is correct that before someone offered them a way to get freedom, they probably didn't have a choice (we don't know if DD ever offered them anything). But Hermione didn't just offer freedom, she decided to insist on freedom and force them into it. In other words, she wasn't offering them a choice, but attempting to force a different option.
In other social change movements there have been tensions between people who want incremental change, and people who want to sweep away barriers. Hermione simply illustrates one approach -- not the only one, surely, but one that ultimately makes others possible. She is not unethical; she's acting within a ethical system that puts a high value on fairness and action. (Barbara J)
In my opinion, Hermione's actions don't "sweep away barriers," but attempt to sweep people through barriers to the ends that she desires. So she doesn't "sweep away barriers" to the house elves freedom, offering them a way through what had been a barrier. Instead, she attempts to force them through. Similarly, she does not appear to have offered her parents a choice, but instead forced her choice upon them.
Her actions are consistent with the rest of her personality, and so they do reveal one of her greatest flaws, but I would not call them "UN"ethical. (Barbara J)
How can these actions be Hermione's "greatest flaws" and yet be ethical? It seems to me that the entire point is that her actions are flawed because they are unethical. Taking people's right to decisions can be ethical? How?
If a person has a right to something, and someone else intentionally removes that right, or attempts to remove it, in my opinion that is always unethical. If however, if the person does not have the right, or should not have the right, then taking away the right is not unethical.
I do not see how it is possible for Hermione to take or attempt to take the right of someone else's choice and force them to do something, and that be ethical. As I said before, someone's good intentions and motivations do not make it ethical to forcibly remove their right to a choice. Offering a choice, especially where none existed (like with the house elves) is good. Forcing an option that is not desired, and attempting to take away that person's choice, is not right.
Loopy Lupin - Nov 22, 2007 1:24 pm (#2289 of 2486)
We have nothing canon to suggest she did ask, we have nothing canon to suggest she did not ask. Truly, the before part was not pertinant to the story. Only the part where she acutally performed the charm was important to the story.-- Denise
I think this is one of those things that JKR could've handled a wee bit more smoothly, knowing that we are lurking out there to analyze even smaller aspects of the story. I looked at this point rather pragmatically. The author needed to do something with Hermione's parents to ensure that they were out of harm's way and, perhaps more precisely, to ensure that we weren't all twitterpated over questions like "Why didn't Voldemort try to gain an advantage by going after Hermione's parents?" or "Why didn't Hermione do something to protect her parents?" I also definitely had the impression that Hermione oblivated first, given that she was fighting a war.
By the way, I know I've missed the boat on this one, but was there a consensus opinion on how it was that Hermione states she had never done a memory charm when she clearly had performed one on her parents? I tend to look at this as a rather glaring oversight, but perhaps there's a difference to "modification" vs. Oblivate! .
Soul Search - Nov 22, 2007 2:37 pm (#2290 of 2486)
My read has always been that "oblivate" erased a recent memory, rather permanently. What Hermione did with her parents was more like "blocking" or hiding the part of their memories that pertained to her, their real names, and especially Harry Potter. She could restore their memories in full by simply unblocking them.
rambkowalczyk - Nov 22, 2007 10:03 pm (#2291 of 2486)
Let's assume they agreed to this. Then why would they agree to Hermione taking all of their memories of her? all italics are from wynnleaf's post.
You seem to think that it might be safer if her parents remember some things about Hermione and not remember other things. If her parents went to Australia with some memory of Hermione, they might be tempted to try and get in touch with her say after a year. How would they know whether or not it is safe. If there were to try to send an Owl, it could get intercepted and Voldemort could discover where they were.
And remember about what Voldemort's done in the past. Changing their memories wasn't going to keep Voldemort from getting the memories if he found them. He could get at obliviated memories.
I fail to see how the parents are safer with some of their memories. Just as a for instance, suppose there were Death Eaters in Australia looking for various people. They could do Legilimency on a group of people and look for various keywords. If the parents had Hermione's name in their memory, they would be questioned sooner than if they had no memories of Hermione.
And once again, with JKR's general take on loving parents, they might die for their child, but I doubt if JKR imagined them willing to lose all their memories of the child.
I maintain it's possible for a parent willing to do this if they thought it was the only way.
Further, given the way JKR has written Hermione in the past, it's more likely that she imagined Hermione doing this on her own in a "Hermione knows best" kind of decision.
I agree that there is a Hermione knows best quality about her. But unlike some characters she will question whether they do the right thing. I'm remembering in the fifth book she questioned whether or not they should tell someone what actually happened to Montague. Therefore I think she might question the ethics of modifying someones memory without permission.
I'm curious, why are so many so desirous of arguing that Hermione must have asked her parents? It's far more "in character" for Hermione to have made the decision herself.
With me the answer is probably twofold. One is just a desire to be contrary and see if the argument can still hold water. The other is that it is consistent with Hermione's character to tell people what she is doing. She tells House Elves that they have a right to certain things, then she does stuff that could be considered questionable. Even the contract where she didn't specifically state that violating is was subjecting you to a curse, she did say that when you sign the paper you are agreeing to not tell Umbridge. So I see her saying to her parents that they are in danger and that she is going to temporarily change their memory in order to keep them as well as Harry safe.
Barbara J - Nov 22, 2007 10:42 pm (#2292 of 2486)
Taking people's right to decisions can be ethical? How?
We will just have to disagree on this one. I do not see her actions with the house elves as taking away the right to choose.
If you go to an enslaved person and say "you have the choice to remain in service to your master, or to leave," you have freed them. Giving them that choice is no different than giving them a sock.
Once house-elves are freed, they can choose to stay where they are. Or they can leave. But unless they are free, there is no possible "choice."
mona amon - Nov 23, 2007 3:56 am (#2293 of 2486)
The impression I got was that Hermione was trying to trick them into getting freed-- keeping the socks hidden so that they'd touch them or something, which was certainly not giving them a choice. I could be wrong though!
wynnleaf - Nov 23, 2007 8:25 am (#2294 of 2486)
The impression I got was that Hermione was trying to trick them into getting freed-- keeping the socks hidden so that they'd touch them or something, which was certainly not giving them a choice. I could be wrong though! (mona amon)
Yes, that's correct.
I maintain it's possible for a parent willing to do this if they thought it was the only way. (ramb)
Except that it wasn't the only way, as we know since the Dursleys are put in hiding with wizards, and lots of wizards went into pretty effective hiding. Hermione does not appear to have attempted to find such hiding opportunities for her parents -- that is, hiding with wizards. That, of course, would have required their agreement.
And I can't picture LV's crowd heading to Australia and simply rounding up random people and happening upon the Grangers. If they were hidden under another name and with a new identity, having their own memories intact wouldn't enable the DEs to find them any easier. And yes, having their memories might make it possible that eventually they'd want to search for their daughter. But once again we're back to what their rights are. They weren't children or otherwise incapable of intelligent decisions. It is their right to decide if they want to risk their own lives and to what extent. If they were voluntarily hiding because they thought their presence would endanger Hermione, then it's pretty unlikely that they'd suddenly decide to endanger her by coming out of hiding.
And further, it is quite possible to have devised a method of communication with them. Hermione and other wizards managed it with others.
I don't think, by the way, that we can imagine the Grangers to be under greater threat than the Dursleys, and most likely not quite as much threat. Anything that would be considered possible for the Dursleys - hiding with wizards, contact using some form of wizarding communication, lack of obliviation - should have been possible for Hermione's parents.
And it was certainly a whole lot more complicated to set them up with an entirely new life in Australia, than it would have been to find hiding for them among wizards.
Barbara J - Nov 23, 2007 9:01 am (#2295 of 2486)
You are correct, mona amon, but there again I think what she did reveals more youthful enthusiasm than anything else. Plus, it was immediately clear -- although Harry kept this information from Hermione -- that the house-elves were simply avoiding her efforts. In other words, her perhaps misguided efforts gave them a choice that they did not previously have. She did not take away a choice, because they never had one to begin with.
Hermione isn't the only character who does things from time to time that are morally ambiguous. She's a character, though, not a person. Could her parents have gone into hiding with wizards like the Dursleys? Yes, but then we would not have had one more example of Hermione's charm-casting talents and her ability to plan ahead -- both qualities being essential to Harry's success.
Soul Search - Nov 23, 2007 4:45 pm (#2296 of 2486)
The Dursleys got the protection of the Ministry and the Order because of Harry and, perhaps, the need to move them out of the house at the right time related to Dumbledore's "mothers blood" protection. After all, the Dursleys were at considerable risk only because they took Harry in and gave him "house room" for sixteen years. Had Voldemort gotten hold of the Dursleys, Harry would have tried to save them.
Hermione could not easily ask for the same protection for her parents. For one thing, she could not tip the trio's hand to the Ministry that Hermione would be going off with Harry. The Ministry couldn't protect even muggleborn wizards, let alone the muggle parents of a muggleborn. Also, I don't think Hermione would have, and rightly, trusted the Ministry to protect her parents. The Order wasn't likely equipped to do much protection, especially after the ministry fell. Most order members were running for their own lives.
Ethical problems considered, I still think Hermione made a difficult, but correct, decision for protecting her parents. Anything less would have placed them, and perhaps even the trio, at risk.
It wasn't easy for Hermione. She was very upset over what she had to do. But she did what had to be done and I admire her for it.
Denise P. - Nov 23, 2007 4:54 pm (#2297 of 2486)
Very well stated, SoulSearch. I agree with you. It would not have been an easy thing for Hermione to do, to have to obliviate her parents but she did it.
I do think after the fact, explaining things to her parents, they would have forgiven her after the initial angry outburst.
Chemyst - Nov 23, 2007 8:55 pm (#2298 of 2486)
Based on what we saw in the books as a whole, and particularly Hermione's decisions in the protection issues of setting up the DA, I think it is most likely that she told her parents "a" truth, a half-truth, and only half the truth. My guess is that she told them enough that they would allow her to perform a charm on them. From what we have seen of Potter-world magic, it is quite likely that less damage would be done if they cooperated. I don't think they ever expected they would forget her though.
Without canon, it is all speculation, but the story makes the most sense to me if I fill in the blanks by envisioning an off-page situation where the Grangers chose to let their daughter put some kind of disguise charm on them, but that they had no idea how powerful it would be.
Because I'd see so much of my kids every day, I had a good sense of what they were capable of. When we'd go to visit relatives who we saw only once a year, they would almost invariably underestimate the kid's abilities; for instance, they would not trust them to pour a glass of milk, a chore they'd been doing at home for months. They would always be shocked at how much the kids had grown. I doubt if Hermione's parents, who saw her only occasionally, really knew the extent of what she could do to disguise them.
Denise P. - Nov 23, 2007 9:14 pm (#2299 of 2486)
Even beyond that Chemyst, that they are unaware of her abilities, we have to remember that they are muggles to boot. All of this is probably very impressive so I am sure when Hermione sold them on being obliviated, she didn't mention everything that could possible go wrong.
You know, I was re-reading P/SS the other day and I was hit all over again how much I disliked Hermione at first. She really was a little know it all, wasn't she? She certainly learned to temper that through the course of the books but occasionally it would rear it's little head.
Vox Gerbilis - Nov 23, 2007 9:16 pm (#2300 of 2486)
It was my understanding that Hermione obliviated her parents' memory of her not only for safety and protection, but also so they would not grieve for her if she did not survive. Obviously, there's an arrogant aspect to this, but it also reflects her compassion for them.
I believe that Hermione's I-know-best attitude is better described as naive zealousness than arrogance. Youthful idealists have a hard time comprehending that moral choices which are absolutely unambiguous in the abstract (freedom versus slavery; protecting life versus endangering or harming life) become shrouded in ambiguity when they must be exercised. Hence, Hermione can't grasp that the house elves' apparent preference for the status quo might deserve some consideration, or that her parents might prefer to retain their memory of her even at the cost their safety or peace of mind. At her stage of intellectual and moral development, if the question is black and white, then it's all black and white, with no gray around the edges.
I can readily believe that Hermione decided that obliviating her parents' memory was in their best interests, and did so without consulting them. However, I don't attribute that to convenience or arrogance. Her motives were entirely good, but she lacked the capacity and experience to recognize that there were ethical questions worthy of consideration.
What sort of parent would let their kid forego a normal education and future in order to embrace a world they never knew existed? Vox
I agree, many parents would not let their children do this. But we know that some parents were happy to have this happen to their families. Petunia says that her parents "were proud of having a witch in the family!" PS/SS p. 66 For them it was just a sacrifice they were willing to make.
We only see the Grangers looking "apprehensive" and "nervous" so we don't know that they felt the way the Evans' did. But they let Hermione go. Dumbledore or anyone else wouldn't have been able to force them. But I don't think they could have known what they were getting into.
I wonder if the trio ever told the whole story. And to whom. Soul Search
I think the whole story would have come out because there would no longer be anything or anyone to hide from danger. But it does seem like the whole Horcrux thing might not come up. They won't even write about it in most books. Maybe they just say "He found a way to split his soul into 8 pieces, but we won't say how."
shepherdess - Nov 19, 2007 12:46 pm (#2252 of 2486)
I agree that Hermione is presumptuous at times and is something of a know-it-all. And I agree that she did presume to take away her parent's choices. I prefer to think that she only did that as a last resort. But what choice did she have?
The fact is--Harry wouldn't have made it without her. Yes, Harry's brave and all that; but he wouldn't have figured out everything on his own-at least not in time to save the WW from LV. (And who would have saved him from the snake at Bathilda Bagshot's house?) She had to help Harry.
She also had to protect her family. LV wanted Harry. He would use any means possible to get to him. If Hermione is with him, LV would do anything necessary to get to her. Her parents simply would not be safe anywhere in Britain. They needed to go away, as they would not have been able to protect themselves from LV/DE's. If they were tortured (and they remembered Hermione), they would not be able to resist giving information that could be used against Hermione and/or Harry, possibly leading to LV capturing/killing Harry before he could destroy the horcruxes--which had to be done.
Sending her parents away without modifying their memories would have been enough if it was certain that they would not come back and put themselves/Hermione/Harry (and Ron) in danger before LV was dead, and if they would agree to go willingly and leave their daughter to go on a dangerous mission from which she might never return. Both of those things would have been asking a lot from any parents who love their child. I can't see the Grangers agreeing to it.
Either the Granger's knew what was going on (and probably didn't want to leave or let Hermione leave), or they didn't know. Either way, Hermione made the decision to do what she did. Yes, it took away their choices, and yes it was presumptuous. But, I think it was necessary too. What else could she have done?
wynnleaf - Nov 19, 2007 1:39 pm (#2253 of 2486)
And I agree that she did presume to take away her parent's choices. I prefer to think that she only did that as a last resort. But what choice did she have? (sheperdess)
This is the whole problem with Hermione's viewpoint, as far as I understand her viewpoint. What choice did she have if she wanted to make sure her parents stayed safe? Well, how about let them make the decision for themselves as regards how much risk or safety they needed or wanted? If we, the readers, could understand the dangers, so could her parents if she'd been willing to tell them the truth. Then they could make an informed decision based on their own wishes and willingness to accept risk, not Hermione's wishes.
See, with Hermione, I read her as thinking what she thinks people need is in fact exactly what they need. So if their choice wouldn't be to do exactly as Hermione thinks is best, well, what choice does she have, but to take their choice away from them? After all, Hermione knows best. What she wants to happen must happen. That's her attitude. It's exactly the same as her attitude with the house elves.
Steve Newton - Nov 19, 2007 2:33 pm (#2254 of 2486)
If the parents make a decision to stay than they could well be used as leverage to get to the trio. They had to go. The potential to save lives would seem to overcome their freedom of choice.
wynnleaf - Nov 19, 2007 2:38 pm (#2255 of 2486)
If the parents make a decision to stay than they could well be used as leverage to get to the trio. They had to go. The potential to save lives would seem to overcome their freedom of choice. (Steve Newton)
Given what a persuasive point that is (that the parents could be used against the Trio), don't you think if Hermione had explained that to her parents, they would have been willing to hide without being obliviated? I imagine they're fairly bright folks, after all.
Hermione seems to be more focused on their safety, which is fine, but it means that her decision to send them to Australia probably wasn't to protect the Trio.
megfox* - Nov 19, 2007 3:41 pm (#2256 of 2486)
My biggest concern with this line of thinking is this (and we may have already covered it, but I don't remember it being brought up, so sorry if we have)...
We know that memory charms can be broken, but to do so can cause some other irreparable damage. Did Hermione know this? Harry certainly does. Dumbledore shared that with him when they were discussing Bertha Jorkins. As Voldemort himself explains, after he had broken the memory charms placed on her, she was "worthless". I always took that to mean that she was broken, in a mental and physical sense, to the point she couldn't even be Imperiused enough to be sent back to England to live her life. This raised a red flag for some (if not the right people) as she never returned from her holiday, but it (disposing of her) was obviously a better answer than sending her back.
So, to get to my point, Hermione didn't know that it would be better to change her parent's memories, especially given the fact that later in the same book, she claims that she has never modified a memory, so she couldn't have been very proficient in the magic required behind it - however, I digress. I understand that it might make them harder to find, but what if they were found? They would probably be in more danger of permanent damage, and they would have given up at least some details that could have been used to track down Hermione, Ron and Harry.
How much would this have helped the Death Eaters exactly? Well, we don't know how much Hermione shares with her parents, but I think that point is moot. The point is that, IMO, she put her parents in more danger of being seriously, to the point of irreparably, damaged if they were tracked down.
On the topic of a "normal" education versus a magic one, I agree with the idea of sending children with prodigial skills to special institutions to help them excel. However, think about it the other way around. What if parents wouldn't send their magic children to a place where they could learn how to control, use, and develop their talents? Unfortunately, I could see some parents (Dursley-like) who would "put their foots down" against sending their children to a "freak school". What would happen to their children then?
I think I might have the answer to this - remember how Dumbledore convinced the matron at the orphanage, Mrs. Cole, that he had explained to her already what was going on and she had agreed to it? He passed her a blank piece of paper from her desk, instructed her to read it, and then Confunded her (or Imperiused her, its kind of unclear here I think), so that she agreed with him. Whether this is ethical or not in terms of parent's rights, is it the best course of action for the children? Because really, what would happen if parents refused?
Denise P. - Nov 19, 2007 4:09 pm (#2257 of 2486)
I would think Hermione does know that memory charms can cause damage. I also think that when Voldemort removed the charm on others, he was not overly concerned about any possible damage. Hermione would be and take more care in removing it, I think. Knowing Hermione, I doubt she would have attempted something on her parents that would 100% cause damage but we know she is clever, I trust her that she would have researched enough to know the possible pitfalls associated with the charm.
megfox* - Nov 19, 2007 4:19 pm (#2258 of 2486)
Oh, I have complete confidence in Hermione's ability to remove the charm from her parents herself; my concern was with Voldemort or a Death Eater being overly zealous in the removal of it. If her parents were found, I think this puts them in more danger, not less.
Soul Search - Nov 19, 2007 5:18 pm (#2259 of 2486)
My thought was Hermione didn't so much as cast the memory charm to fool death eaters but so her parents would accept their new names and move to Australia. The name change and move were the primary protections.
If no one knew their names had been changed and they had moved then death eaters would have no way to find them. They could look all over England and not find a hint of them. Death Eaters would have no way of discovering they should be looking in Australia.
haymoni - Nov 19, 2007 6:39 pm (#2260 of 2486)
If Hermione hadn't done this to her parents, we would all be asking why she didn't bother to protect them.
Poor girl doesn't stand a chance with us.
Denise P. - Nov 19, 2007 6:56 pm (#2261 of 2486)
I actually don't have a problem with Hermione having done this. I also would not have batted an eye if it had never been mentioned.
wynnleaf - Nov 19, 2007 7:02 pm (#2262 of 2486)
Haymoni, for me at least, my disquiet with Hermione is not quite the way you're interpreting it.
It's easy to assume there were only two choices. Hermione can obliviate her parents and hide them against their wishes, or they can risk death. Where's the choice in which Hermione presents the true danger to her parents, maybe even how their capture by DEs could endanger Hermione and her friends, and convinces them to agree to be hidden? I'm not displeased with Hermione's desire to protect her parents. I'm displeased with her considering that their rights weren't as important as what she wanted.
But on a completely other level, it concerns me if JKR is trying to present Hermione's choice as a valid and responsible choice. Supposedly, a great deal of the HP series is about "choices," yet we often see the "good guys" making wrong choices, or unethical choices and we get no sense that their wrong choices are a problem.
Oh, sure, we see that some of their teenage squabbles come back to haunt them, or they feel remorse about it -- Ron's jealousy for instance. But the more truly serious wrong or questionable choices are brushed aside as if they are nothing.
So Hermione and the Trio obliviate, use Unforgiveables, leave fellow school children hexed into unconsciousness for hours (GOF and OOTP) and then walk over them telling no one of their plight, refuse to give info to help the injured Montague in OOTP, etc. and nothing at all is said or done to show that any of these actions was even questionable behavior, much less actually wrong.
In this case the excuse is given that JKR had Hermione obliviate her parents as a convenient way for JKR to get them into safety and out of the way. Just how much less convenient would it have been to have Hermione instead say that she'd convinced her parents that if the DEs captured them they could be used against Hermione, or get vital information from them and thus convinced them to go into hiding like the Dursleys? See? It didn't take me but one sentence to write it.
Vox Gerbilis - Nov 19, 2007 7:40 pm (#2263 of 2486)
Megfox, in DH, Lupin says that before the Death Eaters took over the ministry, wizarding parents had the option of educating their children at home or sending them abroad. Are you suggesting that Muggle parents did not, and indeed could not, have this option as well?
The Wizarding World absorption of Muggle-born wizards is a key part of the HP plot. The flip side of that, i.e., the departure of muggle-borns from their muggle families and societies, is not part of the plot, and never dealt with. While that omission doesn't create a plot hole, it does create a hole in the fabric of the Potterverse. The most parsimonious, rational explanation, is that muggle-born wizards are simply separated cleanly and completely from their families for the best interests of both worlds. However, Hermione's ongoing relationship (such as it is) with her parents, and references to Lily's ongoing relationship with the Evanses, negate this explanation. So we're left with a slew of unanswered questions about how much the muggle families know, how much control do they retain over their children, how much contact/affection can still take place, etc. We can't completely ignore these questions because they often arise with Hermione, especially with respect to her modification of her parents' memories.
I'm not convinced that the boarding schools for deaf students, or special training for gifted athletes or artists is an apt analogy. Parents in these situations have some idea of the comparative costs and benefits, and of the risks. They don't need to keep it a secret. The HP situation would be more akin to parents handing their child over to a secret society they'd never heard of before, because that society contends that the child has been born with special talents that only the society can understand and foster. (I can't think of any real world examples here. The closest I can come up with is the King of the Hill episode when monks from Khan's religion claim that Bobby is their reincarnated leader.) It's incomprehensible that parents would simply say "sure, see you next summer."
shepherdess - Nov 19, 2007 8:02 pm (#2264 of 2486)
But if Hermione did convince her parents of how much danger they were in, it would have become apparent that she was in just as much, if not more, danger. As her parents, they would want her safe probably even more than she wanted them safe.
If she let them decide, I don't believe they would have willingly gone anywhere without her. They might have insisted she go with them. They might have forbidden her to go with Harry. What then? Does she respect their wishes and say: "sorry, Harry, you're on your own" and head off to Australia? Does she say: "sorry, mum and dad, but I'm going and you can't stop me" then walk out hoping that they'll just pack up and go to Australia? Obviously, neither of those options would be good.
So--just what should she have done? What could she have done to insure the safety of her parents and make sure that Harry gets the help and support that he needs to destroy the horcruxes and LV?
BTW-I'm enjoying this discussion, wynnleaf, and I hope you don't think I'm just being argumentative and trying to prove you wrong.
Michael Franz - Nov 19, 2007 8:18 pm (#2265 of 2486)
So--just what should she have done?
Well, is there some particular reason she couldn't have modified their memories after giving them the choice? If they refused, then maybe Hermione might have a point. But why not even give them the chance? And, again, why do the slime-sucking Dursleys get to know the truth and not the Grangers?
All of these arguments really boil down to the idea that Hermione's Muggle parents are too inferior to make decisions for themselves, so Hermione and wizards in general should make their decisions for them for the greater good. Heil Grindelwald!
If that's what Hermione thinks, then why is she fighting against Voldemort?
megfox* - Nov 19, 2007 8:36 pm (#2266 of 2486)
To be honest, I am on the fence about how I feel regarding Hermione's choice to delete her parent's memories of her. I just think that, knowing how powerful the Death Eaters are (and I mean as a whole), there is the possibility that her parents could be located. And if they were found, there is a greater danger of harm.
I actually think that sending them to Australia was kind of a genius stroke, both by Hermione and JKR, as a way to eliminate the problem of, "How would Hermione's parents respond to her taking off into hiding for a year with two boys, and all three of them are in constant mortal peril?" For the other two, the issue is better resolved by the plot up to this point - all of Harry's parental figures, save the Weasleys (I'll get to them in a moment), have been eliminated from the picture, and Ron's parents are in the thick of the fight, and even though Molly doesn't want them to go, she knows that they are going to, and Arthur even helps prepare a plausible story for Ron's absence for when they do leave (the ghoul in pajamas with spattergoit). I just wondered if other people saw this as another potential downfall of her plan.
As for Muggle parents having the choice to "home-school" their wizard children, I don't think that would work, do you? One of the points of Hogwarts is to help students learn to control their magical ability. If they don't, they could be dangerous, even deadly. I don't see the difference between sending a Muggle-born to Hogwarts as opposed to sending them to Beauxbatons or Durmstrang or wherever overseas. The issue is more about, how do you explain to and convince Muggle parents of the extreme need for their children to go away to boarding school if it wasn't the original plan. What if an 11 year-old wizard's parents are like the Dursleys and refuse to allow their child to be trained? Not all families are going to be like the Grangers and allow their child to be taken away by someone claiming to be able to do magic. I am thinking of Fudge's response to the Muggle Prime Minister - "Why didn't anyone tell me about this before?" Fudge - "Are you ever going to tell anyone?"
I have talked myself into a corner... I am not sure where to go from here, hehe... Sometimes I wonder if I post just to play devil's advocate. I am not actually sure where I stand on either of these issues the more I think about it!
wynnleaf - Nov 19, 2007 9:11 pm (#2267 of 2486)
If she let them decide, I don't believe they would have willingly gone anywhere without her. They might have insisted she go with them. They might have forbidden her to go with Harry. What then? Does she respect their wishes and say: "sorry, Harry, you're on your own" and head off to Australia? Does she say: "sorry, mum and dad, but I'm going and you can't stop me" then walk out hoping that they'll just pack up and go to Australia? Obviously, neither of those options would be good. (Sheperdess)
First important point is that Hermione was of age and her parent s would know that they couldn't dictate what Hermione could or couldn't do at that point. If Hermione made it clear that she was going with Harry, and that if her parents did not hide they could be used against her, I think it's more likely they'd have gone into hiding.
However, suppose her parents decided that they would rather stay in England to be near their daughter, regardless of the risks, rather than go to Australia?
Well, okay. They weren't children. They weren't senile. They weren't mentally unbalanced. If it's Hermione's decision to risk her life to help Harry, why don't her parents deserve the right to decide when to risk their lives? See, this is Hermione's problem. She wants the right to make her own decisions, but she also wants to make her parents decisions as well and would not give them the same rights she asserted for herself.
I'm glad you're enjoying the discussion. Many times Hermione's choices create excellent ethical questions and are fun to hash out.
Denise P. - Nov 19, 2007 9:34 pm (#2268 of 2486)
First important point is that Hermione was of age and her parent s would know that they couldn't dictate what Hermione could or couldn't do at that point.
Actually, I don't think she was. She was certainly of age in the wizarding world at 17 but in the muggle world, isn't it 18?
It doesn't make much difference in terms of her decision to modify their memories though. I think she would have done it even if she had not been of age, confident in not only her ability to cast it but to remove it at a later date with no harm done to her parents. Although, I would imagine that they would have been less than pleased when they found out what had been done, no matter how well intentioned Hermione had been.
Michael Franz - Nov 19, 2007 10:12 pm (#2269 of 2486)
She was certainly of age in the wizarding world at 17 but in the muggle world, isn't it 18?
Yes, but she is a wizard, and as such, wizarding law applies. What are her parents going to do, call Child Services and tell them their daughter's a runaway witch?
What happened to the Grangers' dental practice while they were "away"? Did Hermione irrevocably damage their careers? Did they have any Muggle friends who reported them as missing? Did Hermione even care? Oh, but she was saving their lives, so that justifies anything. I say she should have erased her own memory because her parents are clearly better off without her.
Just in case I'm not angry enough about this, let's say Hermione removes the memory charm from her parents and explains everything. Then, let's say her parents decide to contact the Ministry and press charges against her. Oh, sure, she could just erase their memory again — but that would prove beyond a shadow of a doubt the immorality of her actions. At that point, even Ron would turn her in.
PeskyPixie - Nov 19, 2007 10:59 pm (#2270 of 2486)
re: Muggles sending their kids off to schools of magic.
The explanation from a Hogwarts representative must be disbelief followed by relief for Muggle parents as their child has probably exhibited special abilities from an early age. I'm sure some parents are devastated by the news, but many must be happy that there's a reason why their child is able to do all sorts of weird stuff.
re: Hermione taking the decision to change her parents's identities and memories and ship them off to Australia.
I suppose the main debate here is whether or not Hermione has the right to save her parents from potential death, or whether her parents have the right to choose to make themselves readily accessible for possible torture and death. I understand the arguments of both sides, however, personally, I don't blame Hermione in her choice because her parents are Muggles and thus completely defenseless against Death Eaters. This is not about 'Magic is Might'; it's about protecting the innocent and helpless.
There comes a time in life when children have to take responsibility for their parents. War makes this moment occur prematurely for Hermione.
shepherdess - Nov 19, 2007 11:40 pm (#2271 of 2486)
I think it all boils down to this: if the two people you love most in the world choose to do something that will probably get them tortured/killed, do you step aside and let it happen out of respect for their decision, or do you do the only thing that can prevent that from happening even if that thing is immoral? If you really love them, can you allow them to basically commit suicide when they may not even fully understand the possible consequences of their choice and you are perfectly aware of the horrors they may have to endure?
We keep talking about the Granger's choice; what about Hermione's choice? Could she choose to let her parents (whom she loves) put themselves and her and Harry and, therefore, the whole WW, not to mention the muggle world in Voldemorts hands just to indulge their right to choose to stay near her?
I don't think I could. I think I would have done what she did. I think it would be better to take away one right one time in order to save countless numbers of lives. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
And at least, what was done was done out of love and compassion and was fixable. That's better than what happened to the Longbottoms and Bertha Jorkins.
wynnleaf - Nov 20, 2007 5:04 am (#2272 of 2486)
I think it all boils down to this: if the two people you love most in the world choose to do something that will probably get them tortured/killed, do you step aside and let it happen out of respect for their decision, or do you do the only thing that can prevent that from happening even if that thing is immoral? (Sheperdess)
I suppose the main debate here is whether or not Hermione has the right to save her parents from potential death, or whether her parents have the right to choose to make themselves readily accessible for possible torture and death. (PeskyPixie)
That's not the main debate, only a secondary one, because as far as we can tell the Grangers never got asked what their choice was in the first place. So Hermione never learned whether they'd have chosen to hide or not. She decided not to even give them a choice. So the first question is this: Did the Grangers, two intelligent and responsible adults, have the right to learn what the dangers were and choose whether to go into hiding or not?
And then, let's suppose they decided not to go into hiding? Even if Hermione was going to send them into hiding by force as a last resort (this was by force, you understand), didn't they at least deserve the choice of 1. go into hiding knowingly or 2. have your memories obliviated and be sent into hiding by force.
See, I don't think Hermione would have ever said, "Mum and Dad, if you don't go into hiding, I'll obliviate you and send you into hiding anyway and if I die, you'll never remember I even existed." Why wouldn't she tell them that? Well, if she did say that, it would probably work, because it's really quite a nasty threat. Sounds pretty horrible if she actually put it into words, right?
Now, assuming they were choosing to stay and not hide, even after being told that they might die or be tortured or both. Shouldn't Hermione protect them?
Well, here's a real life situation. Your parent has a medical problem that could kill them. They are perfectly in possession of their senses and they have all the medical facts. They choose to use an alternative type of medicine that you think probably won't work and you think the chances are a whole lot better to have the surgery done that would probably save them. Do you have the right to kidnap them, drug them into insensibility, and force them into surgery?
No, you don't. Just because you love a parent doesn't give you the right to take their rights away, solely because you don't like their choices and think they are too dangerous.
Denise P. - Nov 20, 2007 6:16 am (#2273 of 2486)
That's not the main debate, only a secondary one, because as far as we can tell the Grangers never got asked what their choice was in the first place. So Hermione never learned whether they'd have chosen to hide or not. She decided not to even give them a choice.
I think it is a pretty big leap to say that Hermion never asked them to go into hiding or told them about the danger they faced. Knowing what we do of Hermione, it is very likely she *did* implore them, hands wringing, to go into hiding.
I really think that Hermione DID explain the situation to them, they didn't take it seriously enough and that is when Hermione decided to do the deed. We know Harry (or someone) explained it to the Dursleys. Even after that and even with Petunia having a marginal clue based on Voldermort Round 1, Vernon still wanted to be difficult (I know, it is his nature)
I think it is giving Hermione too little credit to assume that she just whipped out her wand to erase memories without giving her parents at least an opportunity to go into Wizarding Muggle Protection on their own. Hermione just didn't like their choice and when her logic didn't sway them into her way of thinking, then she whipped her wand out and took away their choice.
Or, here is another scenario that should be considered. Perhaps after learning of the danger they faced, Hermione gave them the CHOICE to have their memories modified with the assurance it would be reversed when they were out of danger. I can see where Hermione would have told them she was safe at Hogwarts. At the point in time that this took place, even though Harry said he was not going back to Hogwarts, she was probably under the mistaken impression that she could talk him into going back.
Barbara J - Nov 20, 2007 6:33 am (#2274 of 2486)
That's an interesting analogy [wynnleaf's medical decision-making illustration]. But it doesn't solve the problem of how to make your parents go away for a year. I can't imagine they would have willingly sent her off on the trio's quest and promised to stay out of the way, knowing that she could be killed at any moment. And even if they were in hiding in Britain, she cannot afford to be worrying constantly about their safety. I don't think she'd be able to be in contact with them on a regular basis, for fear of drawing attention -- so if she can't see them or talk to them, and they have to go into hiding anyway, why not at least send them far away? If she is protecting them herself, she's not helping Harry. If she's relying on others to protect them, again, why not take the extra step of placing them somewhere where they will be far removed from the action?
Throughout the books, Hermione did a lot of planning and researched everything to death. Under time constraints, she did something to her parents that she thought would protect them. As with other actions in the books, doing the "right" thing is not always as easy or straightforward as it seems. I would agree that her decision reveals a tendency we already know about her -- to think that she knows what's best for other people. But I don't think her character deserves some of the harsher criticism she's getting.
Here's another analogy, instead of surgery, because I think most people would balk at compelling surgery. But what about parents who can't live at home any longer, but don't want to leave? Some people choose to let their parents stay at home in various states of hygeiene while their houses basically fall down around them. Others move their parents into assisted living facilities or nursing homes, often over the parents' very strong objections, because that will improve the parents' quality of life. I am thinking of a situation close to me where an elderly parent would have been dead over a year ago, because of memory issues that were causing her to medicate herself inappropriately, if her family had not moved her to another place where her medications are supervised. She is healthy now, has made friends, and is living closer to her family. Some people would say she should have been allowed to choose to stay at home and, basically, kill herself.
Wynnleaf, I can hear you pointing out that in some of these situations the parent may have issues of mental competence, while the Grangers, as far as we know, are perfectly competent to make their own decisions. Point taken. : ) I'm just saying that what's right and wrong are not always clear cut; what's right for one family may be wrong for another. Despite Hermione's problem with being a bit of a know-it-all, she is very often right, and we know she does not make hasty decisions...so I think we need to cut her just a little more slack on this one.
[Edited just to clarify which post was being referenced.]
wynnleaf - Nov 20, 2007 7:25 am (#2275 of 2486)
As to whether or not Hermione would have tried to convince her parents first, I don't think we have any evidence to say that she did. First, she never mentions any sort of disagreement with her parents. Second, as I said before, she's a witch and her parents know it. If she actually had told them "if you don't go into hiding, I'll obliviate you and you'll never remember me if I die," then I think chances are 99% that they would have gone into hiding, because no one would want to be obliviated of practically all of their memories. See the point? It's such a horrible thing to do to someone, that I think we can pretty much assume that even if Hermione did ask her parents to go into hiding, she never told them what she would do to them if they didn't do it.
And this is very similar to Hermione's actions of the past - having students sign a club list without telling them that the list is jinxed; leaving hats around for the house elves to pick up inadvertently to force them into freedom against their wishes; confunding another person at the quidditch tryouts so that Ron could be the best, and so on. Hermione is "scary" just like Ron and Harry sometimes say.
As regards likening the situation to forcing a person to have surgery, I think it's quite apropos, since Hermione was dramatically altering their minds in a very possibly permanent manner. That is just as invasive as forcing someone to have some major surgery like a heart bi-pass.
Yes, Hermione's intentions were good in the sense that she wanted to keep people she cared about safe. However, this is another instance of Hermione's ethics being extremely flexible when it comes to whatever she wants, and another example of her "Hermione knows best" attitude. This doesn't make Hermione a "bad" person, but it is one of her several major flaws throughout the books.
shepherdess - Nov 20, 2007 3:44 pm (#2276 of 2486)
If she actually had told them "if you don't go into hiding, I'll obliviate you and you'll never remember me if I die," then I think chances are 99% that they would have gone into hiding, because no one would want to be obliviated of practically all of their memories.~~wynnleaf
But using threats like that is coercion. They would be agreeing to go into hiding under duress. It's still force. You're still taking their choice away. The only difference is they would know they were being forced. And then you run the risk of them changing their minds and breaking the agreement. And then everyone's in danger once again.
Lovely little moral/ethical dilemma Jo's created for us, huh?
wynnleaf - Nov 20, 2007 7:12 pm (#2277 of 2486)
But using threats like that is coercion. They would be agreeing to go into hiding under duress. It's still force. You're still taking their choice away. (sheperdess)
Yes, indeed it is coercion. But at least then the parents have a chance to keep from getting obliviated.
Maybe part of it is that as a parent I know that almost any parent who loved their child would pay practically any price to keep from totally loosing their memories of their children. It's that horrible a thing to do. Going into hiding would certainly not be too high a price. Hermione may be clueless, but that doesn't make the threat of obliviating her parents any less terrible. And Hermione couldn't have given her parents that choice. Oh, it's still coercion and it's still unethical, but it is at least a choice to not be obliviated. I feel certain Hermione never told them she'd obliviate them if they didn't hide voluntarily.
On top of anything else, JKR believes too much in the value of the love of a parent to a child. I highly doubt that in her imagination, unwritten on the page, Hermione's parents chose to have all of their memories of their only child taken away.
Michael Franz - Nov 20, 2007 11:22 pm (#2278 of 2486)
You know, I think Rita Skeeter might want to know the details of this incident. Revenge, sweet revenge.
(Rita's an unregistered Animagus, you say? Merely a desperate attempt to attack the messenger. Besides, the Animagus records mysteriously disappeared during Voldemort's reign over the Ministry.)
rambkowalczyk - Nov 21, 2007 5:36 pm (#2279 of 2486)
That's not the main debate, only a secondary one, because as far as we can tell the Grangers never got asked what their choice was in the first place. So Hermione never learned whether they'd have chosen to hide or not. She decided not to even give them a choice. So the first question is this: Did the Grangers, two intelligent and responsible adults, have the right to learn what the dangers were and choose whether to go into hiding or not? wynnleaf
Correct me if I am wrong but there is nothing in the book that says Hermione did not discuss this with her parents. (or for that matter that she did).
The book says plainly I've also modified my parents' memories so that they're convinced they're really called Wendell and Monica Wilkins and that their life's ambition is to move to Australia, which they now have done. That makes it more difficult to track them down and interrogate them about me--or you, because unfortunately, I've told them quite a bit about you. Assuming I survive our hunt for the Horcruxes, I find Mum and Dad and lift the enchantment. If I don't--well, I think I've cast a good enough charm to keep them safe and happy. Wendell and Monica Wilkins don't know they've got a daughter, you see."
I will acknowledge that Hermione does have a habit of thinking she is right and therefore everything she does must be right and that it would be arrogant if she modified her parents memories without their permission.
I can see a possible conversation she might have explaining why she must stay and help Harry. She could also detail the danger her parents are in as well as the danger to her and Harry if the parents were captured and tortured by Death Eaters. Why couldn't her parents volunteer and say look if it helps erase our memories so we can't hurt you.
Ron says that House affiliation sometimes runs in families. Hermiones parents could be true Gryffindors willing to sacrifice their memories to help their daughter.
shepherdess - Nov 21, 2007 11:14 pm (#2280 of 2486)
Hermiones parents could be true Gryffindors willing to sacrifice their memories to help their daughter.
Gee, I hadn't even thought about that. Perhaps, because of our knowledge of Hermione's tendency toward making decisions for others, we could be judging her too quickly.
wynnleaf - Nov 22, 2007 1:58 am (#2281 of 2486)
Let's assume they agreed to this. Then why would they agree to Hermione taking all of their memories of her? If Hermione, on her first attempt, is good enough to change her parents memories so that they knew nothing of her, and could give them a full backstory without her in it, why couldn't she have changed their memories to only remove the memories that could have been harmful if discovered? Then they could go into hiding voluntarily without all the other elaborate part.
No, it doesn't make sense that they'd be willing for all this to take place, but still need their memories so completely changed.
And remember about what Voldemort's done in the past. Changing their memories wasn't going to keep Voldemort from getting the memories if he found them. He could get at obliviated memories. The main part about changing their memories would be so that they'd be willing to hidden. If they had been given a choice about going into hiding and were willing to do it then why change their memories so completely?
And once again, with JKR's general take on loving parents, they might die for their child, but I doubt if JKR imagined them willing to lose all their memories of the child. Further, given the way JKR has written Hermione in the past, it's more likely that she imagined Hermione doing this on her own in a "Hermione knows best" kind of decision.
I'm curious, why are so many so desirous of arguing that Hermione must have asked her parents? It's far more "in character" for Hermione to have made the decision herself.
haymoni - Nov 22, 2007 5:52 am (#2282 of 2486)
I'm not implying that there were only 2 choices.
I just meant that we are such a picky bunch we might have been critical of whatever Hermione did or did not do.
I agree w/ wynnleaf - Hermione made the decision herself.
Solitaire - Nov 22, 2007 6:19 am (#2283 of 2486)
I think it is all in one's perspective. Some do not like Hermione's tactics and choose to consider her manipulative and presumptuous. I prefer to give her the benefit of the doubt and ascribe purer motives to her. I choose to consider her as tender-hearted. I believe she knew that her parents would be broken-hearted if she should die, so she was trying to spare them any unnecessary pain or danger. Disagree if you must ... it's your choice.
Solitaire
Denise P. - Nov 22, 2007 6:57 am (#2284 of 2486)
I believe Hermione comes by her personality naturally.....she gets it from her parents. As my dad is fond of saying, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Since I do think that, I also choose to believe that she did ask her parents before high handedly obliviating.
We have nothing canon to suggest she did ask, we have nothing canon to suggest she did not ask. Truly, the before part was not pertinant to the story. Only the part where she acutally performed the charm was important to the story.
I agree with Soli, it depends on how you view Hermione on how you choose to view her actions. I just don't believe, no matter how bossy she can be, that she would just obliviate first and ask questions later.
We can all agree to disagree on if she asked or not
Steve Newton - Nov 22, 2007 7:21 am (#2285 of 2486)
As far as I can tell her actions were required. Her parents could have been captured and used to manipulate Hermione and the trio and so harming the wizarding world. Thousands of lives were on the line. Since Voldemort used the families of other resisting wizards I see no reason to think that he would not have used the Grangers.
wynnleaf - Nov 22, 2007 7:22 am (#2286 of 2486)
I think it is all in one's perspective. Some do not like Hermione's tactics and choose to consider her manipulative and presumptuous. I prefer to give her the benefit of the doubt and ascribe purer motives to her. I choose to consider her as tender-hearted. I believe she knew that her parents would be broken-hearted if she should die, so she was trying to spare them any unnecessary pain or danger. (Solitaire)
I am uncertain of exactly the comparison you are trying to make. It seems as though you're setting up an "either/or situation," as though Hermione's having purer motives and obliviating her parents to spare them unnecessary pain or danger is incompatible with her actions being manipulative and presumptuous.
A great many people can easily do manipulative things for tenderhearted reasons. And it's by no means incompatible to do something unethical -- like take someone's rightful decision from them -- all because you care about them.
I suppose this is also a kind of ethical question. A great many people (and I'm not saying you, Solitaire), think that motivation changes whether something is right or wrong. Sometimes it does, when it is the motivation itself that is the point in question. But in my opinion, good motives alone cannot make an unethical decision right, nor the underlying attitude of "I know best, therefore I can refuse you your right" correct.
I do not think I've argued at all that Hermione had unkind or unloving motivations, at least from her perspective. But that doesn't mean that she can't also have been arrogantly thinking she knows best.
We see this problem come up in a broader sense in societies where one group assumes the dominant rights and asserts that it is all for the best for the subjugated group, because it meets their needs better than if they had equal rights. But even if this appears true on a physical level, or even if the motivation of those taking the greater rights really is benevolent, it doesn't make it right.
It is much like Hermione's actions with the house elves. Hermione assumed that she knew more about what they needed than they did. She assumed that she had greater understanding than them regarding their own needs. Therefore, she attempted to manipulate them and deprive them of their right to choose. She didn't do it for unkind reasons. She truly was distressed at their situation. But that doesn't make her actions ethical.
Barbara J - Nov 22, 2007 8:18 am (#2287 of 2486)
...the underlying attitude of "I know best, therefore I can refuse you your right"...
This is the attitude of the WW towards house elves in general.
Hermione is less arrogant in her attempts to aid house elves, in my opinion, than youthful. As we get older we tend to see a lot more shades of gray in situations. She sees right and wrong, and steps in -- in a very Gryffindor way, I think. Gryffindors tend to take bold moves based on what they think is right and wrong, rather than going through an extensive cost/benefit analysis.
It is much like Hermione's actions with the house elves. Hermione assumed that she knew more about what they needed than they did. She assumed that she had greater understanding than them regarding their own needs. Therefore, she attempted to manipulate them and deprive them of their right to choose.
WHAT right to choose? Before she started leaving hats and socks all around, they had no choice at all. Once she started, it's very clear that they did choose -- but it was only then that they had any options.
In other social change movements there have been tensions between people who want incremental change, and people who want to sweep away barriers. Hermione simply illustrates one approach -- not the only one, surely, but one that ultimately makes others possible. She is not unethical; she's acting within a ethical system that puts a high value on fairness and action.
As for what she did to her parents' memory...I agree with Solitaire on this one. I also think the "apple doesn't fall far from the tree" point is well taken. She knows her parents better than we do, which is not hard, since JKR chose to tell us so little about them. Her actions are consistent with the rest of her personality, and so they do reveal one of her greatest flaws, but I would not call them "UN"ethical.
wynnleaf - Nov 22, 2007 8:40 am (#2288 of 2486)
I had said Hermione didn't want to give the house elves the right to choose. I'm not saying that her offer of freedom was wrong. It is correct that before someone offered them a way to get freedom, they probably didn't have a choice (we don't know if DD ever offered them anything). But Hermione didn't just offer freedom, she decided to insist on freedom and force them into it. In other words, she wasn't offering them a choice, but attempting to force a different option.
In other social change movements there have been tensions between people who want incremental change, and people who want to sweep away barriers. Hermione simply illustrates one approach -- not the only one, surely, but one that ultimately makes others possible. She is not unethical; she's acting within a ethical system that puts a high value on fairness and action. (Barbara J)
In my opinion, Hermione's actions don't "sweep away barriers," but attempt to sweep people through barriers to the ends that she desires. So she doesn't "sweep away barriers" to the house elves freedom, offering them a way through what had been a barrier. Instead, she attempts to force them through. Similarly, she does not appear to have offered her parents a choice, but instead forced her choice upon them.
Her actions are consistent with the rest of her personality, and so they do reveal one of her greatest flaws, but I would not call them "UN"ethical. (Barbara J)
How can these actions be Hermione's "greatest flaws" and yet be ethical? It seems to me that the entire point is that her actions are flawed because they are unethical. Taking people's right to decisions can be ethical? How?
If a person has a right to something, and someone else intentionally removes that right, or attempts to remove it, in my opinion that is always unethical. If however, if the person does not have the right, or should not have the right, then taking away the right is not unethical.
I do not see how it is possible for Hermione to take or attempt to take the right of someone else's choice and force them to do something, and that be ethical. As I said before, someone's good intentions and motivations do not make it ethical to forcibly remove their right to a choice. Offering a choice, especially where none existed (like with the house elves) is good. Forcing an option that is not desired, and attempting to take away that person's choice, is not right.
Loopy Lupin - Nov 22, 2007 1:24 pm (#2289 of 2486)
We have nothing canon to suggest she did ask, we have nothing canon to suggest she did not ask. Truly, the before part was not pertinant to the story. Only the part where she acutally performed the charm was important to the story.-- Denise
I think this is one of those things that JKR could've handled a wee bit more smoothly, knowing that we are lurking out there to analyze even smaller aspects of the story. I looked at this point rather pragmatically. The author needed to do something with Hermione's parents to ensure that they were out of harm's way and, perhaps more precisely, to ensure that we weren't all twitterpated over questions like "Why didn't Voldemort try to gain an advantage by going after Hermione's parents?" or "Why didn't Hermione do something to protect her parents?" I also definitely had the impression that Hermione oblivated first, given that she was fighting a war.
By the way, I know I've missed the boat on this one, but was there a consensus opinion on how it was that Hermione states she had never done a memory charm when she clearly had performed one on her parents? I tend to look at this as a rather glaring oversight, but perhaps there's a difference to "modification" vs. Oblivate! .
Soul Search - Nov 22, 2007 2:37 pm (#2290 of 2486)
My read has always been that "oblivate" erased a recent memory, rather permanently. What Hermione did with her parents was more like "blocking" or hiding the part of their memories that pertained to her, their real names, and especially Harry Potter. She could restore their memories in full by simply unblocking them.
rambkowalczyk - Nov 22, 2007 10:03 pm (#2291 of 2486)
Let's assume they agreed to this. Then why would they agree to Hermione taking all of their memories of her? all italics are from wynnleaf's post.
You seem to think that it might be safer if her parents remember some things about Hermione and not remember other things. If her parents went to Australia with some memory of Hermione, they might be tempted to try and get in touch with her say after a year. How would they know whether or not it is safe. If there were to try to send an Owl, it could get intercepted and Voldemort could discover where they were.
And remember about what Voldemort's done in the past. Changing their memories wasn't going to keep Voldemort from getting the memories if he found them. He could get at obliviated memories.
I fail to see how the parents are safer with some of their memories. Just as a for instance, suppose there were Death Eaters in Australia looking for various people. They could do Legilimency on a group of people and look for various keywords. If the parents had Hermione's name in their memory, they would be questioned sooner than if they had no memories of Hermione.
And once again, with JKR's general take on loving parents, they might die for their child, but I doubt if JKR imagined them willing to lose all their memories of the child.
I maintain it's possible for a parent willing to do this if they thought it was the only way.
Further, given the way JKR has written Hermione in the past, it's more likely that she imagined Hermione doing this on her own in a "Hermione knows best" kind of decision.
I agree that there is a Hermione knows best quality about her. But unlike some characters she will question whether they do the right thing. I'm remembering in the fifth book she questioned whether or not they should tell someone what actually happened to Montague. Therefore I think she might question the ethics of modifying someones memory without permission.
I'm curious, why are so many so desirous of arguing that Hermione must have asked her parents? It's far more "in character" for Hermione to have made the decision herself.
With me the answer is probably twofold. One is just a desire to be contrary and see if the argument can still hold water. The other is that it is consistent with Hermione's character to tell people what she is doing. She tells House Elves that they have a right to certain things, then she does stuff that could be considered questionable. Even the contract where she didn't specifically state that violating is was subjecting you to a curse, she did say that when you sign the paper you are agreeing to not tell Umbridge. So I see her saying to her parents that they are in danger and that she is going to temporarily change their memory in order to keep them as well as Harry safe.
Barbara J - Nov 22, 2007 10:42 pm (#2292 of 2486)
Taking people's right to decisions can be ethical? How?
We will just have to disagree on this one. I do not see her actions with the house elves as taking away the right to choose.
If you go to an enslaved person and say "you have the choice to remain in service to your master, or to leave," you have freed them. Giving them that choice is no different than giving them a sock.
Once house-elves are freed, they can choose to stay where they are. Or they can leave. But unless they are free, there is no possible "choice."
mona amon - Nov 23, 2007 3:56 am (#2293 of 2486)
The impression I got was that Hermione was trying to trick them into getting freed-- keeping the socks hidden so that they'd touch them or something, which was certainly not giving them a choice. I could be wrong though!
wynnleaf - Nov 23, 2007 8:25 am (#2294 of 2486)
The impression I got was that Hermione was trying to trick them into getting freed-- keeping the socks hidden so that they'd touch them or something, which was certainly not giving them a choice. I could be wrong though! (mona amon)
Yes, that's correct.
I maintain it's possible for a parent willing to do this if they thought it was the only way. (ramb)
Except that it wasn't the only way, as we know since the Dursleys are put in hiding with wizards, and lots of wizards went into pretty effective hiding. Hermione does not appear to have attempted to find such hiding opportunities for her parents -- that is, hiding with wizards. That, of course, would have required their agreement.
And I can't picture LV's crowd heading to Australia and simply rounding up random people and happening upon the Grangers. If they were hidden under another name and with a new identity, having their own memories intact wouldn't enable the DEs to find them any easier. And yes, having their memories might make it possible that eventually they'd want to search for their daughter. But once again we're back to what their rights are. They weren't children or otherwise incapable of intelligent decisions. It is their right to decide if they want to risk their own lives and to what extent. If they were voluntarily hiding because they thought their presence would endanger Hermione, then it's pretty unlikely that they'd suddenly decide to endanger her by coming out of hiding.
And further, it is quite possible to have devised a method of communication with them. Hermione and other wizards managed it with others.
I don't think, by the way, that we can imagine the Grangers to be under greater threat than the Dursleys, and most likely not quite as much threat. Anything that would be considered possible for the Dursleys - hiding with wizards, contact using some form of wizarding communication, lack of obliviation - should have been possible for Hermione's parents.
And it was certainly a whole lot more complicated to set them up with an entirely new life in Australia, than it would have been to find hiding for them among wizards.
Barbara J - Nov 23, 2007 9:01 am (#2295 of 2486)
You are correct, mona amon, but there again I think what she did reveals more youthful enthusiasm than anything else. Plus, it was immediately clear -- although Harry kept this information from Hermione -- that the house-elves were simply avoiding her efforts. In other words, her perhaps misguided efforts gave them a choice that they did not previously have. She did not take away a choice, because they never had one to begin with.
Hermione isn't the only character who does things from time to time that are morally ambiguous. She's a character, though, not a person. Could her parents have gone into hiding with wizards like the Dursleys? Yes, but then we would not have had one more example of Hermione's charm-casting talents and her ability to plan ahead -- both qualities being essential to Harry's success.
Soul Search - Nov 23, 2007 4:45 pm (#2296 of 2486)
The Dursleys got the protection of the Ministry and the Order because of Harry and, perhaps, the need to move them out of the house at the right time related to Dumbledore's "mothers blood" protection. After all, the Dursleys were at considerable risk only because they took Harry in and gave him "house room" for sixteen years. Had Voldemort gotten hold of the Dursleys, Harry would have tried to save them.
Hermione could not easily ask for the same protection for her parents. For one thing, she could not tip the trio's hand to the Ministry that Hermione would be going off with Harry. The Ministry couldn't protect even muggleborn wizards, let alone the muggle parents of a muggleborn. Also, I don't think Hermione would have, and rightly, trusted the Ministry to protect her parents. The Order wasn't likely equipped to do much protection, especially after the ministry fell. Most order members were running for their own lives.
Ethical problems considered, I still think Hermione made a difficult, but correct, decision for protecting her parents. Anything less would have placed them, and perhaps even the trio, at risk.
It wasn't easy for Hermione. She was very upset over what she had to do. But she did what had to be done and I admire her for it.
Denise P. - Nov 23, 2007 4:54 pm (#2297 of 2486)
Very well stated, SoulSearch. I agree with you. It would not have been an easy thing for Hermione to do, to have to obliviate her parents but she did it.
I do think after the fact, explaining things to her parents, they would have forgiven her after the initial angry outburst.
Chemyst - Nov 23, 2007 8:55 pm (#2298 of 2486)
Based on what we saw in the books as a whole, and particularly Hermione's decisions in the protection issues of setting up the DA, I think it is most likely that she told her parents "a" truth, a half-truth, and only half the truth. My guess is that she told them enough that they would allow her to perform a charm on them. From what we have seen of Potter-world magic, it is quite likely that less damage would be done if they cooperated. I don't think they ever expected they would forget her though.
Without canon, it is all speculation, but the story makes the most sense to me if I fill in the blanks by envisioning an off-page situation where the Grangers chose to let their daughter put some kind of disguise charm on them, but that they had no idea how powerful it would be.
Because I'd see so much of my kids every day, I had a good sense of what they were capable of. When we'd go to visit relatives who we saw only once a year, they would almost invariably underestimate the kid's abilities; for instance, they would not trust them to pour a glass of milk, a chore they'd been doing at home for months. They would always be shocked at how much the kids had grown. I doubt if Hermione's parents, who saw her only occasionally, really knew the extent of what she could do to disguise them.
Denise P. - Nov 23, 2007 9:14 pm (#2299 of 2486)
Even beyond that Chemyst, that they are unaware of her abilities, we have to remember that they are muggles to boot. All of this is probably very impressive so I am sure when Hermione sold them on being obliviated, she didn't mention everything that could possible go wrong.
You know, I was re-reading P/SS the other day and I was hit all over again how much I disliked Hermione at first. She really was a little know it all, wasn't she? She certainly learned to temper that through the course of the books but occasionally it would rear it's little head.
Vox Gerbilis - Nov 23, 2007 9:16 pm (#2300 of 2486)
It was my understanding that Hermione obliviated her parents' memory of her not only for safety and protection, but also so they would not grieve for her if she did not survive. Obviously, there's an arrogant aspect to this, but it also reflects her compassion for them.
I believe that Hermione's I-know-best attitude is better described as naive zealousness than arrogance. Youthful idealists have a hard time comprehending that moral choices which are absolutely unambiguous in the abstract (freedom versus slavery; protecting life versus endangering or harming life) become shrouded in ambiguity when they must be exercised. Hence, Hermione can't grasp that the house elves' apparent preference for the status quo might deserve some consideration, or that her parents might prefer to retain their memory of her even at the cost their safety or peace of mind. At her stage of intellectual and moral development, if the question is black and white, then it's all black and white, with no gray around the edges.
I can readily believe that Hermione decided that obliviating her parents' memory was in their best interests, and did so without consulting them. However, I don't attribute that to convenience or arrogance. Her motives were entirely good, but she lacked the capacity and experience to recognize that there were ethical questions worthy of consideration.
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