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Harry Potter Book Read Along Thread - Philosopher's / Sorcerer's Stone
Julia H. Sat Jun 25, 2011 7:54 am
This topic serves as an archive of several threads from the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum as hosted on World Crossing which ceased operation on April 15, 2011. Julia H.
# Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's/Philosopher's Stone Ch 1-4
Denise P. - Apr 22, 2004 7:36 am
Edited by Kip Carter Feb 26, 2006 11:56 pm
This thread is to discuss the first book: Harry Potter and the Philosopher's/Sorcerer's Stone.
This will be a chapter by chapter discussion. I think 4 chapters at a shot is a reasonable amount since we have all read these books before and they are not incredibly long.
Discuss amongst yourselves:
Chapter 1: The Boy Who Lived Chapter 2: The Vanishing Glass Chapter 3: The Letters from No One Chapter 4: The Keeper of the Keys
I changed the title of this thread from 1st Book: HP & Sorcerer's/Philosopher's Stone discussion to Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's/Philosopher's Stone Ch 1-4.
The new 2006 discussion of the first four chapters of Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's/Philosopher's Stone Ch 1-4 begins with the 26 Feb 2006 post by Choices, which starts this session off.
As Denise originally stated, "Discuss amongst yourselves:
Chapter 1: The Boy Who Lived
Chapter 2: The Vanishing Glass
Chapter 3: The Letters from No One
Chapter 4: The Keeper of the Keys"
Have fun and I am sure that Denise P. will check the progress of this thread and start the next set of chapters when she deems it right. - Kip 26 Feb 2006
Last edited by Julia H. on Sat Jun 25, 2011 8:09 am; edited 1 time in total
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Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's/Philosopher's Stone Book Read Along (Year 2004 or Posts 1-44)
Denise P. - Apr 22, 2004 6:42 am (#1 of 105)
NYCNomad - Apr 21, 2004 11:53 am
Chapter one; London paper trade edition; Why is Pet, "spying on neighbors"? Is she watching for something Magical?
Vernon sees people in cloaks and "he doesn't know why, but they made him uneasy". Why? They've done nothing to cause problems, but he knows that something is up already. "
(Pet) always got upset at the mention of her sister." That shouldn't be a normal reaction. One might feel disgust, or envy, or something along those lines, but to get upset seems odd in my opinion.
Brief mention of Mrs. Next doors problems with daughter.
Rain in forcast for the night Harry arrived at the Dursleys, but no rain when Dumbledore arrived.
DD says Voldemorts proper name is Voldemort, why didn't he say "Thomas Riddle"? Unless he really isn't....
DD's earmuffs that Madame Pomfrey complmented.
DD quotes on the cause of Harrys survival; "We can only guess... We may never know." But he does know. Why is he lying to McGonagall?
DD's watch with no numbers, 12 hands, and little planets. What's the deal with it?
Hagrid on the flying motorbike; "Borrowed it...Young Sirius Black lent it to me." Now, if Dumbledore knew/thought that Black was the secret keeper, it could only be that Black betrayed them. Since Hagrid mentions him by name, wouldn't they immediatly start a man hunt for him? Is this odd to anyone else?
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haymoni - Apr 21, 2004 12:11 pm (#2 of 105)
As for Black being the Secret Keeper - I'm guessing the initial reaction for anyone who really knew Sirius and James would have been "Sirius betray James?? Never!!"
It wouldn't have been until the brilliant performance by Peter Pettigrew that anyone would have really believed it.
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NYCNomad - Apr 21, 2004 12:24 pm (#3 of 105)
But what other possibility could it be? Dumbledore suspected someone close to James, and DD even thought that Black was the secret keeper. But, Should I continue on with Chapter 2?
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mischa fan - Apr 22, 2004 3:13 pm (#4 of 105)
DD says Voldemorts proper name is Voldemort, why didn't he say "Thomas Riddle"? Unless he really isn't....
A couple of things here, First Dumbledore did say that very few people recognized Voldemort as being Tom Riddle, so I don't think that anyone would know who he was talking about if he said Tom Riddle. Second, Voldemort was the name everyone was afraid to say, and was the name Tom was going by, so that is the name that Dumbledore wanted people to not be afraid to say.
DD quotes on the cause of Harrys survival; "We can only guess... We may never know." But he does know. Why is he lying to McGonagall?
At this time Dumbledore my have also forgotten about the magic that saved Harry, or had thought it was more complicated then it turned out to be, at this time Dumbledore my have thought that he would never know how Harry survived.
Hagrid on the flying motorbike; "Borrowed it...Young Sirius Black lent it to me." Now, if Dumbledore knew/thought that Black was the secret keeper, it could only be that Black betrayed them. Since Hagrid mentions him by name, wouldn't they immediately start a man hunt for him? Is this odd to anyone else?
If Dumbledore thought that Sirius Black was a dangerous wizard, then he wouldn't mention to Hagrid, or McGonagall, for fear that they would try to take on Black themselves.
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NYCNomad - Apr 23, 2004 7:22 am (#5 of 105)
Edited by Denise P. Apr 23, 2004 7:47 am
OK, I'm moving on to Ch 2. Same book and edition. Thanks for the chance to get these things written down. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with any of these thoughts. I'm sure those all belong in seperate threads. But, I'm just throwing out everything that seems important. I could miss things, or it could be nothing.
Mrs. Figg broke her leg tripping over a cat. Would she have gone to St. Mungos? She is a squib, or it may have been to far away to travel with a broken leg, but do magic healers make house calls?
Petunia has a friend named Yevonne who... "'On holiday in Majorca' snapped Petunia" Why did she snap that at Vernon. Are there any witches named Yevonne that we know about yet?
Pier Polkiss, with a face like a rat. Just wondering if there's any connection to him and Peter. Probably nothing, but just mentioning.
Did Harry apperate on the roof of the school? It says he just appeared there, but leter it says that he just assumed the wind caught him mid jump and carried him higher.
The snake woke up at Harrys presence and winked at him. Harry did nothing to provoke any responce from the snake. So, do animals recognize witches and wizard for what they are? Can they "sense" a parsle-tounge?
Why was Piers watching Harry communicate with the snake? Did he just look back and see it or was he watching?
Harry dreamed of someone of "unknown relation" coming to take him away. Does he mean a relative, or just someone who he doesn't know?
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Loopy Lupin - Apr 23, 2004 10:17 am (#6 of 105)
Whoops, I'm still with chapter 1, so let me just say this:
DD quotes on the cause of Harrys survival; "We can only guess... We may never know." But he does know. Why is he lying to McGonagall?
At this time Dumbledore my have also forgotten about the magic that saved Harry, or had thought it was more complicated then it turned out to be, at this time Dumbledore my have thought that he would never know how Harry survived.
This was merely a day (barely) after the attack happened. We don't know what DD knows or doesn't know. He had 11 years afterwards to ponder and figure things out.
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haymoni - Apr 23, 2004 10:32 am (#7 of 105)
I think the dream about the unknown relation taking him away is just the classic orphan dream. "My REAL parents are wonderful - they will come for me - My precious, my darling, we didn't know" - Isn't this from "Twins" with Danny DeVito & The Governor?
Anyway, if you had the Dursleys for family, wouldn't you want someone, anyone to take you away??
Now that I think about it - do the Dursleys get any compensation from the government for taking care (snort!) of Harry? They never adopted him - would they get foster care $$$ for him? I don't know what the equivalent of the US foster care system is in Great Britain.
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Tomoé - Apr 23, 2004 10:43 am (#8 of 105)
The Government should know Harry Potter live with the Dursley, Harry should be registered for school at least. Maybe they did adapted him.
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NYCNomad - Apr 23, 2004 11:25 am (#9 of 105)
Edited by Denise P. Apr 23, 2004 1:24 pm
Loopy, good point on him having 11 years to ponder it. But as I post the things that I catch, I found 2 or three others that jump to mind about causes of the scar. But I'll relate those in order of the chapters. Now to charge straight through
Chapter 3, same book same edition; Dudly knocked down Mrs. Figg his first time on his racing bike. Probably nothing, but mentioning all Mrs. Figg refrences.
Marge sent postcard from Isle of Wight. Any thing about that location special?
Vernon; "Didn't we swear when we took him in we'd stamp out that 'dangerous' nonsense?" So he is convinced it's all dangrous. Was that just from the Potters death, or was there more to his calling it dangerous beyond that.
Vernon yells "SILENCE!" and spiders fell fom the ceiling of his cupbord. A mention of spiders... just an odd refrence.
Another refrence to Marge and the guest room is usually reserved for her.
Dudlys shelves were full of books, which looked untouched. Dudly doesn't seem like a reading kinda guy, why would they keep buying him books he doesn't want? Unless they aren't his? **COUGH petunia spell books COUGH**
Petunia doesn't think Vernons plan of ignoring the letters will work, like she knows it won't. Experience from when Lily got her letter? But her parents were so proud.
Petunia suggests going home to more letters after their night in the hotel.
Last years christmas gift, a pair of Vernons old socks and a coat hanger. (Socks mention).
Who was the old guy with the toothless grin who lent them the boat? Any importance?
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Choices - Apr 23, 2004 7:43 pm (#10 of 105)
"Dudlys shelves were full of books, which looked untouched. Dudly doesn't seem like a reading kinda guy, why would they keep buying him books he doesn't want? Unless they aren't his? **COUGH petunia spell books COUGH**)-----
Surely, if Petunia did have spell books (which I seriously doubt), she wouldn't dare keep them out in plain view and surely not where Dudley might see them.....or heaven forbid, Aunt Marge.
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Rich - Apr 23, 2004 8:36 pm (#11 of 105)
Vernon and Petunia seem like the kind of parents who buy Dudley books just so they can say to other people, "Oooh, our little Dudders loves his reading. Got shelves full of books, he does."
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haymoni - Apr 24, 2004 1:24 pm (#12 of 105)
It's got to be difficult coming up with 30 plus gifts every year.
Thow in a few books and you are up to gift number 27 in no time!
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urzafyffe - Apr 24, 2004 1:42 pm (#13 of 105)
Yeah but would Duddlikins think they would be real gifts. If he didn't I wouldnt want to be there that day.
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haymoni - Apr 24, 2004 6:00 pm (#14 of 105)
I think Dudley is a Quantity Guy, not Quality. He can't add, but could remember how many gifts he received last year.
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The giant squid - Apr 25, 2004 12:00 am (#15 of 105)
Of course, they could always be "cheat books" for all his video games...
--Mike
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mischa fan - Apr 25, 2004 2:27 pm (#16 of 105)
Why do you think that Dumbledore sent Hagrid with Harry's letter? Wouldn't it have been easier for him to pop over to the Dursley's house and hand Harry his letter personally, then he could warn Vernon and Petunia that they had better not try to prevent Harry from attending Hogwarts.
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Marie E. - Apr 25, 2004 5:02 pm (#17 of 105)
He was already sending Hagrid to Gringotts to retrieve the Stone. He just added fetching Harry to the list.
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Star Crossed - Apr 26, 2004 3:55 am (#18 of 105)
Plus, though it never looks like it, maybe, just maybe, DD actually does work. (Have we ever seen him do work? Not trying to insult his character, but have we?)
And as for the books, well, the Dursley's like to comment how smart he is. Maybe those are gifts from friends and family who actually believe Dudley is smart and wanted to send him books.
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The giant squid - Apr 26, 2004 10:45 pm (#19 of 105)
Star Crossed, that's what I was thinking--Dumbledore would have been a better choice to get Harry, but he was busy. After all, preparing Hogwarts for a new term has to take at least a bit of his time.
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NYCNomad - Apr 27, 2004 7:50 am (#20 of 105)
Edited by Denise P. Apr 27, 2004 7:57 am
I would agree. But, not to cut things short, I just want to get a few more chapters of thoughts in while I still can. So on with Book One, Chapter four, British Trade Paperback edition;
If they are so dispised with Harry, why are they so keen to protect him. Vernon got a gun for crying out loud. If they were so hateful wouldn't they just shove him out the door and be done with him?
Hagrid is the "Keeper of the Keys and Grounds at Hogwarts". So does he hold the keys to the school? or is that just part of the official title?
Vernon says "Mimblewimble" There is mention of this in the book 5 UOGMSB Harry Potter. I think it says that it means something like "spell is unaffected" or something like that. Anybody have it handy?
During Pets rant she mentions frog spawn and turning rats into tea cups. Is there a use for for frog spawn that we know about? (Funny that Lily turned rats to teacups, like Scabbers). (Side note, if ron turned scappers to a teacup, then Wormtail was a teacup, so if he was left like that, what would happen?)
James and Lily were to close to Dumbledore, why they were never attemted to be persuaded to join LV. How and why? Any relation there?
Hagrid points to his scar and says "That's what yeh get when a powerful, evil cursetouches yeh - took care of yer mum an' dadan' yer house, even." But we still get different reasons for the scar.
Familys LV had killed-McKinnons, Bones, Prewetts Vernon says he knew (Lily and James) would come to a sticky end. Once again showing he knows it all to be dangerous. Is it ignorance or does he have some prior experience with it all?
Hagrid of LV "Dunno if he had enough human left in him to die". Was he using a figure of speech or was he refering to other things like werewolfs, vampires and other things I can't think about?
Hagrid of his wand and expulsion from Hogwarts "They snapped me wand in halfan' everything" Was it a clean break and easy to fix? Otherwise wouldn't it misfire, like Rons in "CoS"?
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Padfoot - Apr 27, 2004 11:14 am (#21 of 105)
Interesting remark about the tea cup. I had assumed that when a wizard is changed into an animal, they still are aware of who they are. However a tea cup does not have a brain. Hmmm.... interesting.
I would assume that Hagrid has the keys to the building and the grounds. Although it is never mentioned if the building front door is locked ever. Maybe over the summer holiday the building and gate (there is a gate to the grounds right?) are locked.
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NYCNomad - Apr 27, 2004 12:09 pm (#22 of 105)
Perhaps they have a continuing education course? Or summer school?
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Chris. - Apr 27, 2004 6:52 pm (#23 of 105)
There is a gate to the grounds and there's magical doors at the Castle that can be told who is allowed admittance.
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Padfoot - Apr 28, 2004 9:45 am (#24 of 105)
Do you even wonder why the magical world needs keys? Why can't they just use their wands? If every wand is different, then a door can be charmed to open only to those qualified for admittance.
And you are right Kingsley, I read that part last night about the gate to the grounds.
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The giant squid - Apr 28, 2004 8:00 pm (#25 of 105)
padfoot: another word for "key" is "password" (i.e. the "Product Key" on Microsoft products). Maybe the keys Hagrid is keeper of are the passwords to the various doors of Hogwarts--the four common rooms, Dumbledore's office, etc.
--Mike
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NYCNomad - Apr 30, 2004 12:28 pm (#26 of 105)
Edited by Denise P. May 2, 2004 7:32 am
Ok, sorry for the break, I don't have my book on me, but here's what I have in my notebook.
Chapter Five; Hagrid says never mess with Goblins, our first introduction to Goblins with their rebellions and ect.
What was Hagrid knitting? A blanket for his bed? Is this mildly important or just showing his character?
Quirrel was getting a book on vampires. What about them was he trying to find out. Is there some vampire blood in LV? Perhaps there was something in there to resurect vampires. (I'm reaching for that one).
Where did the Potter fortune come from. There was no mention of Potter relations even cousins, second cousins, aunts, uncles and we've met the Weasly family and the Black family and supposidly all pure-bloods are inbred to a certin extent.
Hagrid said not a single witch or wizard that went bad wasn't from Slytherine, what about other schools and nations and the likes, was Hagrid exagerating?
Ollivanders wands since 382 BC, Ollivander remembers every wand he ever sold, is it a family business or is Ollivander over 2000 years old?
Ollivander has long white fingers, like LV, he's very old, wonder if long white fingers has anything to do with vampires? (Again, I'm reaching)
If there is interest, just ask and I'll post the stats given on all the wands as they are mentioned. I figured that would be a bit excessive
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NYCNomad - May 19, 2004 8:33 am (#27 of 105)
Again, sorry for the pause Book one, ch 6 and 7 notes;
Lee Jordan has a giant tarantula. What ever happened to it? Where was it in book 2?
Ron is missing the FWWC for Agrippa and Ptolemy
Dumbledore defeated Grindlewald in 1945. I have a friend that thinks that Voldemort is a person who is reincarnated several times and Tom Riddle and Grindlewald are different incarnations of the same person.
What are the 12 uses of dragons blood?
Why did Scabbers bite Goyle?
DD's hair was as silver as a ghost. Or perhaps a Demiguise. My same friend has a theory that there is some Demiguise blood in his ancestry. Further proof to be given in a later chapter.
Dumbledore says after school song "Music, a magic beyond all we do here." Is there a deeper meaning?
Why is a poltergist scared of a ghost? Peeves vs Barron
Password is Caput Draconus; I don't know much latin but does that bean beware the dragon?
Harrys dream, was there more than the surface of it, he forgot it the next morning.
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NYCNomad - May 19, 2004 8:39 am (#28 of 105)
Ch 8 notes:
142 staircases in Hogwarts. (I personally don't like they way it is in the movies)
Quirrel smells of Garlic. We are led to believe it's against vampires, but are we sure that it is the case since he has Volde on the mind?
Snapes eyes are black. interesting note, but very few people have black eyes.
In potions he can teach to "bewitch the mind, ensnare the senses, bottle fame, brew fortune and stopper death" like Voldemort did?
The ingredients of the draught of living death, interesting, wondering if it comes into play later on.
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NYCNomad - May 19, 2004 8:41 am (#29 of 105)
Chapter 9:
Hooch has yellow eyes? What is her lineage?
Harry turns out better than Charlie Weasley, and he was Captain
Hermirone knows switching spells, but what exactly do they do?
That's it
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NYCNomad - May 19, 2004 8:52 am (#30 of 105)
Ch's 10-13:
Charlie could have played for England, possible for Harry to play quiddich nationally.
I have the Halloween party mentioned, but I don't know what I ment by that.
all 700 fouls were commited in the Quidditch Cup 1473
Spell for Hermirone's blue jarred flame isn't given
Invisability Cloak is silvery grey, like Dumbledores beard?
Why did James leave the cloak with Dumbledore?
Sweaters from Mrs. Weasley, I think there's more than cotton woven into these, like some protective magic of some sort.
Prof. McGonagall blushed at Hagrids kiss. That would be an interesting couple.
Filch goes directly to Snape with student out of bed, as requested, but why did he request that. Very odd thing to do.
Lily has dark red hair and green eyes. Might Lily be a decendent of Salazar Slytherine? I'm reaching but, perhaps the green eyes thing?
Mirror shows Grandfather (on which side) nodding happily, where are Harrys Grandparents?
Dumbledore says "I don't need a cloak to become invisable." Not a disallusionment charm, but invisable. Further argument for the demiguise theory.
Dumbledores thick woolen socks.
Scabbers was on Harrys pillow, why?
How has Slytherine won the house cup 6 years in a row. They are always breaking the rules!
Snape refs the match, never before, why never before?
Snape says "you don't want me as your enemy" who was that to, I forgot and was there some deepeer meaning in that, or just simply you don't want me as your enemy threat?
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mischa fan - May 19, 2004 2:02 pm (#31 of 105)
Chapter Five
Quarrel was getting a book on vampires. What about them was he trying to find out. Is there some vampire blood in LV? Perhaps there was something in there to resurrect vampires. (I'm reaching for that one).
I think that Quarrel was just making an excuse to be there. Being he is the Defense Against the Dark Arts Teacher, then it would make perfect sense that he would be buying a book on Vampires. What I wonder is why Quarrel was wasting time in the Leaky Cauldron when he was their to steel the stone. Was he trying to work up the courage to break into Gringotts, or did he have to wait for a certain time to do the break in.
Hagrid said not a single witch or wizard that went bad wasn't from Slytherin, what about other schools and nations and the likes, was Hagrid exaggerating?
I think this is a case of Hagrid exaggerating, JKR did say in an interview that Black was in Gryffindor, and at this time everyone believed Black to have gone bad, so it is an exaggeration on Hagrid's part.
Ch's 10-13
How has Slytherin won the house cup 6 years in a row. They are always breaking the rules!
They know how to break the rules without getting caught.
Snape refs the match, never before, why never before?
As Hooch is basically the Phys. Ed. teacher, it would be one of her duties to Ref the matches and their would be no need for anyone else to ref a match. I think that Snape went to Dumbledore and asked to ref this match because of the special circumstances involved in it, and that is why Dumbledore agreed. You wouldn't want a Head of House Reffing when they have a stake in the outcome of the match, who wins the house cup.
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The giant squid - May 19, 2004 10:38 pm (#32 of 105)
Quick bits:
Caput Draconis--I think you're thinking of "caveat draconis" which would mean "dragon beware" literally translated. I'm not sure what "caput" translates to.
Madame Hooch's eyes: No secrets to reveal, but my wife & I noticed that her appearance in the movie (which I believe followed the written description pretty closely) gave her a distinct resemblance to a bird of prey. Appropriate to a teacher or flying, no?
Dumbledore's invisibility: I think it points more to him just having greater knowledge than most wizards, rather than part-demiguise physiology. Dumbledore doesn't need a cloak because he's Dumbledore. 'Nuff said.
And why hasn't anyone gotten the man some socks already?
--Mike
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Ihavebothbuttocks - May 19, 2004 11:41 pm (#33 of 105)
In Latin, caput means head.
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haymoni - May 20, 2004 6:55 am (#34 of 105)
Doesn't the "is" on the end of "Draconis" mean possession? Like "Dragon's" or "of the Dragon".
If so, then the password would be "Dragon's Head" or "Head of the Dragon".
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Miréimé - May 20, 2004 8:19 am (#35 of 105)
You're right, haymoni and Ihavebothbuttocks. Caput draconis means dragon head (or dragon's head or head of dragon). Anyway, you got the point. ^_~
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haymoni - May 20, 2004 8:28 am (#36 of 105)
Woo Hoo! I'm going to track down Mrs. Heilman, my high school Latin teacher.
See - I was paying attention!!!
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NYCNomad - Jun 14, 2004 7:00 am (#37 of 105)
Ok, I thought this was a great idea, and I still think it is, but it has already been done. I was surfing and found a site that has already done all five books broken down into chapter clues. I t also has a fanfic work-in-progress of the sixth book. RE-STATING! It is a FAN FIC, it is not the sixth book, it is a fans concept and her ideas for a sixth book. I like it a lot. But the site, [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I think it's ok to put other web sites here, sorry if I'm mistaken.
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contess lillein asend - Jul 20, 2004 3:57 pm (#38 of 105)
I don't see this here. The most disturbing thing I found in S/P Stone was when Gred and Forge meet Harry on the train and ask if he is Harry Potter. It says "Oh him, he said, Yes i am". What is with that? Oh, Him? who refers to themself in the third person when meeting someone?
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zelmia - Jul 20, 2004 7:54 pm (#39 of 105)
Why is that disturbing? I don't understand why it bothers you so much, Contess. People do refer to themselves in the third person quite frequently. And in this case, Fred and George were referring to the "celebrity" Harry Potter, not the 11-year-old First Year on his first trip to Hogwarts.
So to put it another way, using subtext, Harry answered, "Oh the celebrity... Well, yes technically I am. But I don't really understand why everyone is so excited. I am just trying to get to school without making a fool of myself at the moment."
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NYCNomad - Jul 21, 2004 1:47 pm (#40 of 105)
I agree with Zelmia. It wasn't refering to himself really, he was confirming that the person they were refering to was him. Like when someone calls on the phone and asks for you by name I respond; "This is he". I'm not sure if that's proper grammer, but you get what I mean?
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zelmia - Jul 21, 2004 1:57 pm (#41 of 105)
That's exactly what I mean NYCNomad. Perfect example!
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contess lillein asend - Jul 21, 2004 3:55 pm (#42 of 105)
Good Point. I guess I just keep thinking too darkly. I need to lighten up. Thanks
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haymoni - Jul 23, 2004 6:12 pm (#43 of 105)
Harry had just found out that he was famous. Up until that time, he had been a nobody, even in his own home. Hagrid had warned him that everyone would know him and know all about him and, since Harry hardly knew about himself, it probably felt like the Twins were talking about a Harry Potter that he didn't even know.
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Choices - Dec 25, 2004 6:07 pm (#44 of 105)
Yes, I think Harry was still trying to come to terms with his "new celebrity" and wondering what all the fuss was about. To me, it was almost like he was disappointed that they were asking about "the" Harry Potter and not just glad to see Harry Potter "the kid".
Denise P. - Apr 22, 2004 6:42 am (#1 of 105)
NYCNomad - Apr 21, 2004 11:53 am
Chapter one; London paper trade edition; Why is Pet, "spying on neighbors"? Is she watching for something Magical?
Vernon sees people in cloaks and "he doesn't know why, but they made him uneasy". Why? They've done nothing to cause problems, but he knows that something is up already. "
(Pet) always got upset at the mention of her sister." That shouldn't be a normal reaction. One might feel disgust, or envy, or something along those lines, but to get upset seems odd in my opinion.
Brief mention of Mrs. Next doors problems with daughter.
Rain in forcast for the night Harry arrived at the Dursleys, but no rain when Dumbledore arrived.
DD says Voldemorts proper name is Voldemort, why didn't he say "Thomas Riddle"? Unless he really isn't....
DD's earmuffs that Madame Pomfrey complmented.
DD quotes on the cause of Harrys survival; "We can only guess... We may never know." But he does know. Why is he lying to McGonagall?
DD's watch with no numbers, 12 hands, and little planets. What's the deal with it?
Hagrid on the flying motorbike; "Borrowed it...Young Sirius Black lent it to me." Now, if Dumbledore knew/thought that Black was the secret keeper, it could only be that Black betrayed them. Since Hagrid mentions him by name, wouldn't they immediatly start a man hunt for him? Is this odd to anyone else?
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haymoni - Apr 21, 2004 12:11 pm (#2 of 105)
As for Black being the Secret Keeper - I'm guessing the initial reaction for anyone who really knew Sirius and James would have been "Sirius betray James?? Never!!"
It wouldn't have been until the brilliant performance by Peter Pettigrew that anyone would have really believed it.
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NYCNomad - Apr 21, 2004 12:24 pm (#3 of 105)
But what other possibility could it be? Dumbledore suspected someone close to James, and DD even thought that Black was the secret keeper. But, Should I continue on with Chapter 2?
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mischa fan - Apr 22, 2004 3:13 pm (#4 of 105)
DD says Voldemorts proper name is Voldemort, why didn't he say "Thomas Riddle"? Unless he really isn't....
A couple of things here, First Dumbledore did say that very few people recognized Voldemort as being Tom Riddle, so I don't think that anyone would know who he was talking about if he said Tom Riddle. Second, Voldemort was the name everyone was afraid to say, and was the name Tom was going by, so that is the name that Dumbledore wanted people to not be afraid to say.
DD quotes on the cause of Harrys survival; "We can only guess... We may never know." But he does know. Why is he lying to McGonagall?
At this time Dumbledore my have also forgotten about the magic that saved Harry, or had thought it was more complicated then it turned out to be, at this time Dumbledore my have thought that he would never know how Harry survived.
Hagrid on the flying motorbike; "Borrowed it...Young Sirius Black lent it to me." Now, if Dumbledore knew/thought that Black was the secret keeper, it could only be that Black betrayed them. Since Hagrid mentions him by name, wouldn't they immediately start a man hunt for him? Is this odd to anyone else?
If Dumbledore thought that Sirius Black was a dangerous wizard, then he wouldn't mention to Hagrid, or McGonagall, for fear that they would try to take on Black themselves.
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NYCNomad - Apr 23, 2004 7:22 am (#5 of 105)
Edited by Denise P. Apr 23, 2004 7:47 am
OK, I'm moving on to Ch 2. Same book and edition. Thanks for the chance to get these things written down. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with any of these thoughts. I'm sure those all belong in seperate threads. But, I'm just throwing out everything that seems important. I could miss things, or it could be nothing.
Mrs. Figg broke her leg tripping over a cat. Would she have gone to St. Mungos? She is a squib, or it may have been to far away to travel with a broken leg, but do magic healers make house calls?
Petunia has a friend named Yevonne who... "'On holiday in Majorca' snapped Petunia" Why did she snap that at Vernon. Are there any witches named Yevonne that we know about yet?
Pier Polkiss, with a face like a rat. Just wondering if there's any connection to him and Peter. Probably nothing, but just mentioning.
Did Harry apperate on the roof of the school? It says he just appeared there, but leter it says that he just assumed the wind caught him mid jump and carried him higher.
The snake woke up at Harrys presence and winked at him. Harry did nothing to provoke any responce from the snake. So, do animals recognize witches and wizard for what they are? Can they "sense" a parsle-tounge?
Why was Piers watching Harry communicate with the snake? Did he just look back and see it or was he watching?
Harry dreamed of someone of "unknown relation" coming to take him away. Does he mean a relative, or just someone who he doesn't know?
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Loopy Lupin - Apr 23, 2004 10:17 am (#6 of 105)
Whoops, I'm still with chapter 1, so let me just say this:
DD quotes on the cause of Harrys survival; "We can only guess... We may never know." But he does know. Why is he lying to McGonagall?
At this time Dumbledore my have also forgotten about the magic that saved Harry, or had thought it was more complicated then it turned out to be, at this time Dumbledore my have thought that he would never know how Harry survived.
This was merely a day (barely) after the attack happened. We don't know what DD knows or doesn't know. He had 11 years afterwards to ponder and figure things out.
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haymoni - Apr 23, 2004 10:32 am (#7 of 105)
I think the dream about the unknown relation taking him away is just the classic orphan dream. "My REAL parents are wonderful - they will come for me - My precious, my darling, we didn't know" - Isn't this from "Twins" with Danny DeVito & The Governor?
Anyway, if you had the Dursleys for family, wouldn't you want someone, anyone to take you away??
Now that I think about it - do the Dursleys get any compensation from the government for taking care (snort!) of Harry? They never adopted him - would they get foster care $$$ for him? I don't know what the equivalent of the US foster care system is in Great Britain.
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Tomoé - Apr 23, 2004 10:43 am (#8 of 105)
The Government should know Harry Potter live with the Dursley, Harry should be registered for school at least. Maybe they did adapted him.
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NYCNomad - Apr 23, 2004 11:25 am (#9 of 105)
Edited by Denise P. Apr 23, 2004 1:24 pm
Loopy, good point on him having 11 years to ponder it. But as I post the things that I catch, I found 2 or three others that jump to mind about causes of the scar. But I'll relate those in order of the chapters. Now to charge straight through
Chapter 3, same book same edition; Dudly knocked down Mrs. Figg his first time on his racing bike. Probably nothing, but mentioning all Mrs. Figg refrences.
Marge sent postcard from Isle of Wight. Any thing about that location special?
Vernon; "Didn't we swear when we took him in we'd stamp out that 'dangerous' nonsense?" So he is convinced it's all dangrous. Was that just from the Potters death, or was there more to his calling it dangerous beyond that.
Vernon yells "SILENCE!" and spiders fell fom the ceiling of his cupbord. A mention of spiders... just an odd refrence.
Another refrence to Marge and the guest room is usually reserved for her.
Dudlys shelves were full of books, which looked untouched. Dudly doesn't seem like a reading kinda guy, why would they keep buying him books he doesn't want? Unless they aren't his? **COUGH petunia spell books COUGH**
Petunia doesn't think Vernons plan of ignoring the letters will work, like she knows it won't. Experience from when Lily got her letter? But her parents were so proud.
Petunia suggests going home to more letters after their night in the hotel.
Last years christmas gift, a pair of Vernons old socks and a coat hanger. (Socks mention).
Who was the old guy with the toothless grin who lent them the boat? Any importance?
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Choices - Apr 23, 2004 7:43 pm (#10 of 105)
"Dudlys shelves were full of books, which looked untouched. Dudly doesn't seem like a reading kinda guy, why would they keep buying him books he doesn't want? Unless they aren't his? **COUGH petunia spell books COUGH**)-----
Surely, if Petunia did have spell books (which I seriously doubt), she wouldn't dare keep them out in plain view and surely not where Dudley might see them.....or heaven forbid, Aunt Marge.
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Rich - Apr 23, 2004 8:36 pm (#11 of 105)
Vernon and Petunia seem like the kind of parents who buy Dudley books just so they can say to other people, "Oooh, our little Dudders loves his reading. Got shelves full of books, he does."
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haymoni - Apr 24, 2004 1:24 pm (#12 of 105)
It's got to be difficult coming up with 30 plus gifts every year.
Thow in a few books and you are up to gift number 27 in no time!
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urzafyffe - Apr 24, 2004 1:42 pm (#13 of 105)
Yeah but would Duddlikins think they would be real gifts. If he didn't I wouldnt want to be there that day.
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haymoni - Apr 24, 2004 6:00 pm (#14 of 105)
I think Dudley is a Quantity Guy, not Quality. He can't add, but could remember how many gifts he received last year.
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The giant squid - Apr 25, 2004 12:00 am (#15 of 105)
Of course, they could always be "cheat books" for all his video games...
--Mike
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mischa fan - Apr 25, 2004 2:27 pm (#16 of 105)
Why do you think that Dumbledore sent Hagrid with Harry's letter? Wouldn't it have been easier for him to pop over to the Dursley's house and hand Harry his letter personally, then he could warn Vernon and Petunia that they had better not try to prevent Harry from attending Hogwarts.
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Marie E. - Apr 25, 2004 5:02 pm (#17 of 105)
He was already sending Hagrid to Gringotts to retrieve the Stone. He just added fetching Harry to the list.
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Star Crossed - Apr 26, 2004 3:55 am (#18 of 105)
Plus, though it never looks like it, maybe, just maybe, DD actually does work. (Have we ever seen him do work? Not trying to insult his character, but have we?)
And as for the books, well, the Dursley's like to comment how smart he is. Maybe those are gifts from friends and family who actually believe Dudley is smart and wanted to send him books.
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The giant squid - Apr 26, 2004 10:45 pm (#19 of 105)
Star Crossed, that's what I was thinking--Dumbledore would have been a better choice to get Harry, but he was busy. After all, preparing Hogwarts for a new term has to take at least a bit of his time.
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NYCNomad - Apr 27, 2004 7:50 am (#20 of 105)
Edited by Denise P. Apr 27, 2004 7:57 am
I would agree. But, not to cut things short, I just want to get a few more chapters of thoughts in while I still can. So on with Book One, Chapter four, British Trade Paperback edition;
If they are so dispised with Harry, why are they so keen to protect him. Vernon got a gun for crying out loud. If they were so hateful wouldn't they just shove him out the door and be done with him?
Hagrid is the "Keeper of the Keys and Grounds at Hogwarts". So does he hold the keys to the school? or is that just part of the official title?
Vernon says "Mimblewimble" There is mention of this in the book 5 UOGMSB Harry Potter. I think it says that it means something like "spell is unaffected" or something like that. Anybody have it handy?
During Pets rant she mentions frog spawn and turning rats into tea cups. Is there a use for for frog spawn that we know about? (Funny that Lily turned rats to teacups, like Scabbers). (Side note, if ron turned scappers to a teacup, then Wormtail was a teacup, so if he was left like that, what would happen?)
James and Lily were to close to Dumbledore, why they were never attemted to be persuaded to join LV. How and why? Any relation there?
Hagrid points to his scar and says "That's what yeh get when a powerful, evil cursetouches yeh - took care of yer mum an' dadan' yer house, even." But we still get different reasons for the scar.
Familys LV had killed-McKinnons, Bones, Prewetts Vernon says he knew (Lily and James) would come to a sticky end. Once again showing he knows it all to be dangerous. Is it ignorance or does he have some prior experience with it all?
Hagrid of LV "Dunno if he had enough human left in him to die". Was he using a figure of speech or was he refering to other things like werewolfs, vampires and other things I can't think about?
Hagrid of his wand and expulsion from Hogwarts "They snapped me wand in halfan' everything" Was it a clean break and easy to fix? Otherwise wouldn't it misfire, like Rons in "CoS"?
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Padfoot - Apr 27, 2004 11:14 am (#21 of 105)
Interesting remark about the tea cup. I had assumed that when a wizard is changed into an animal, they still are aware of who they are. However a tea cup does not have a brain. Hmmm.... interesting.
I would assume that Hagrid has the keys to the building and the grounds. Although it is never mentioned if the building front door is locked ever. Maybe over the summer holiday the building and gate (there is a gate to the grounds right?) are locked.
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NYCNomad - Apr 27, 2004 12:09 pm (#22 of 105)
Perhaps they have a continuing education course? Or summer school?
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Chris. - Apr 27, 2004 6:52 pm (#23 of 105)
There is a gate to the grounds and there's magical doors at the Castle that can be told who is allowed admittance.
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Padfoot - Apr 28, 2004 9:45 am (#24 of 105)
Do you even wonder why the magical world needs keys? Why can't they just use their wands? If every wand is different, then a door can be charmed to open only to those qualified for admittance.
And you are right Kingsley, I read that part last night about the gate to the grounds.
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The giant squid - Apr 28, 2004 8:00 pm (#25 of 105)
padfoot: another word for "key" is "password" (i.e. the "Product Key" on Microsoft products). Maybe the keys Hagrid is keeper of are the passwords to the various doors of Hogwarts--the four common rooms, Dumbledore's office, etc.
--Mike
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NYCNomad - Apr 30, 2004 12:28 pm (#26 of 105)
Edited by Denise P. May 2, 2004 7:32 am
Ok, sorry for the break, I don't have my book on me, but here's what I have in my notebook.
Chapter Five; Hagrid says never mess with Goblins, our first introduction to Goblins with their rebellions and ect.
What was Hagrid knitting? A blanket for his bed? Is this mildly important or just showing his character?
Quirrel was getting a book on vampires. What about them was he trying to find out. Is there some vampire blood in LV? Perhaps there was something in there to resurect vampires. (I'm reaching for that one).
Where did the Potter fortune come from. There was no mention of Potter relations even cousins, second cousins, aunts, uncles and we've met the Weasly family and the Black family and supposidly all pure-bloods are inbred to a certin extent.
Hagrid said not a single witch or wizard that went bad wasn't from Slytherine, what about other schools and nations and the likes, was Hagrid exagerating?
Ollivanders wands since 382 BC, Ollivander remembers every wand he ever sold, is it a family business or is Ollivander over 2000 years old?
Ollivander has long white fingers, like LV, he's very old, wonder if long white fingers has anything to do with vampires? (Again, I'm reaching)
If there is interest, just ask and I'll post the stats given on all the wands as they are mentioned. I figured that would be a bit excessive
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NYCNomad - May 19, 2004 8:33 am (#27 of 105)
Again, sorry for the pause Book one, ch 6 and 7 notes;
Lee Jordan has a giant tarantula. What ever happened to it? Where was it in book 2?
Ron is missing the FWWC for Agrippa and Ptolemy
Dumbledore defeated Grindlewald in 1945. I have a friend that thinks that Voldemort is a person who is reincarnated several times and Tom Riddle and Grindlewald are different incarnations of the same person.
What are the 12 uses of dragons blood?
Why did Scabbers bite Goyle?
DD's hair was as silver as a ghost. Or perhaps a Demiguise. My same friend has a theory that there is some Demiguise blood in his ancestry. Further proof to be given in a later chapter.
Dumbledore says after school song "Music, a magic beyond all we do here." Is there a deeper meaning?
Why is a poltergist scared of a ghost? Peeves vs Barron
Password is Caput Draconus; I don't know much latin but does that bean beware the dragon?
Harrys dream, was there more than the surface of it, he forgot it the next morning.
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NYCNomad - May 19, 2004 8:39 am (#28 of 105)
Ch 8 notes:
142 staircases in Hogwarts. (I personally don't like they way it is in the movies)
Quirrel smells of Garlic. We are led to believe it's against vampires, but are we sure that it is the case since he has Volde on the mind?
Snapes eyes are black. interesting note, but very few people have black eyes.
In potions he can teach to "bewitch the mind, ensnare the senses, bottle fame, brew fortune and stopper death" like Voldemort did?
The ingredients of the draught of living death, interesting, wondering if it comes into play later on.
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NYCNomad - May 19, 2004 8:41 am (#29 of 105)
Chapter 9:
Hooch has yellow eyes? What is her lineage?
Harry turns out better than Charlie Weasley, and he was Captain
Hermirone knows switching spells, but what exactly do they do?
That's it
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NYCNomad - May 19, 2004 8:52 am (#30 of 105)
Ch's 10-13:
Charlie could have played for England, possible for Harry to play quiddich nationally.
I have the Halloween party mentioned, but I don't know what I ment by that.
all 700 fouls were commited in the Quidditch Cup 1473
Spell for Hermirone's blue jarred flame isn't given
Invisability Cloak is silvery grey, like Dumbledores beard?
Why did James leave the cloak with Dumbledore?
Sweaters from Mrs. Weasley, I think there's more than cotton woven into these, like some protective magic of some sort.
Prof. McGonagall blushed at Hagrids kiss. That would be an interesting couple.
Filch goes directly to Snape with student out of bed, as requested, but why did he request that. Very odd thing to do.
Lily has dark red hair and green eyes. Might Lily be a decendent of Salazar Slytherine? I'm reaching but, perhaps the green eyes thing?
Mirror shows Grandfather (on which side) nodding happily, where are Harrys Grandparents?
Dumbledore says "I don't need a cloak to become invisable." Not a disallusionment charm, but invisable. Further argument for the demiguise theory.
Dumbledores thick woolen socks.
Scabbers was on Harrys pillow, why?
How has Slytherine won the house cup 6 years in a row. They are always breaking the rules!
Snape refs the match, never before, why never before?
Snape says "you don't want me as your enemy" who was that to, I forgot and was there some deepeer meaning in that, or just simply you don't want me as your enemy threat?
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mischa fan - May 19, 2004 2:02 pm (#31 of 105)
Chapter Five
Quarrel was getting a book on vampires. What about them was he trying to find out. Is there some vampire blood in LV? Perhaps there was something in there to resurrect vampires. (I'm reaching for that one).
I think that Quarrel was just making an excuse to be there. Being he is the Defense Against the Dark Arts Teacher, then it would make perfect sense that he would be buying a book on Vampires. What I wonder is why Quarrel was wasting time in the Leaky Cauldron when he was their to steel the stone. Was he trying to work up the courage to break into Gringotts, or did he have to wait for a certain time to do the break in.
Hagrid said not a single witch or wizard that went bad wasn't from Slytherin, what about other schools and nations and the likes, was Hagrid exaggerating?
I think this is a case of Hagrid exaggerating, JKR did say in an interview that Black was in Gryffindor, and at this time everyone believed Black to have gone bad, so it is an exaggeration on Hagrid's part.
Ch's 10-13
How has Slytherin won the house cup 6 years in a row. They are always breaking the rules!
They know how to break the rules without getting caught.
Snape refs the match, never before, why never before?
As Hooch is basically the Phys. Ed. teacher, it would be one of her duties to Ref the matches and their would be no need for anyone else to ref a match. I think that Snape went to Dumbledore and asked to ref this match because of the special circumstances involved in it, and that is why Dumbledore agreed. You wouldn't want a Head of House Reffing when they have a stake in the outcome of the match, who wins the house cup.
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The giant squid - May 19, 2004 10:38 pm (#32 of 105)
Quick bits:
Caput Draconis--I think you're thinking of "caveat draconis" which would mean "dragon beware" literally translated. I'm not sure what "caput" translates to.
Madame Hooch's eyes: No secrets to reveal, but my wife & I noticed that her appearance in the movie (which I believe followed the written description pretty closely) gave her a distinct resemblance to a bird of prey. Appropriate to a teacher or flying, no?
Dumbledore's invisibility: I think it points more to him just having greater knowledge than most wizards, rather than part-demiguise physiology. Dumbledore doesn't need a cloak because he's Dumbledore. 'Nuff said.
And why hasn't anyone gotten the man some socks already?
--Mike
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Ihavebothbuttocks - May 19, 2004 11:41 pm (#33 of 105)
In Latin, caput means head.
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haymoni - May 20, 2004 6:55 am (#34 of 105)
Doesn't the "is" on the end of "Draconis" mean possession? Like "Dragon's" or "of the Dragon".
If so, then the password would be "Dragon's Head" or "Head of the Dragon".
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Miréimé - May 20, 2004 8:19 am (#35 of 105)
You're right, haymoni and Ihavebothbuttocks. Caput draconis means dragon head (or dragon's head or head of dragon). Anyway, you got the point. ^_~
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haymoni - May 20, 2004 8:28 am (#36 of 105)
Woo Hoo! I'm going to track down Mrs. Heilman, my high school Latin teacher.
See - I was paying attention!!!
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NYCNomad - Jun 14, 2004 7:00 am (#37 of 105)
Ok, I thought this was a great idea, and I still think it is, but it has already been done. I was surfing and found a site that has already done all five books broken down into chapter clues. I t also has a fanfic work-in-progress of the sixth book. RE-STATING! It is a FAN FIC, it is not the sixth book, it is a fans concept and her ideas for a sixth book. I like it a lot. But the site, [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I think it's ok to put other web sites here, sorry if I'm mistaken.
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contess lillein asend - Jul 20, 2004 3:57 pm (#38 of 105)
I don't see this here. The most disturbing thing I found in S/P Stone was when Gred and Forge meet Harry on the train and ask if he is Harry Potter. It says "Oh him, he said, Yes i am". What is with that? Oh, Him? who refers to themself in the third person when meeting someone?
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zelmia - Jul 20, 2004 7:54 pm (#39 of 105)
Why is that disturbing? I don't understand why it bothers you so much, Contess. People do refer to themselves in the third person quite frequently. And in this case, Fred and George were referring to the "celebrity" Harry Potter, not the 11-year-old First Year on his first trip to Hogwarts.
So to put it another way, using subtext, Harry answered, "Oh the celebrity... Well, yes technically I am. But I don't really understand why everyone is so excited. I am just trying to get to school without making a fool of myself at the moment."
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NYCNomad - Jul 21, 2004 1:47 pm (#40 of 105)
I agree with Zelmia. It wasn't refering to himself really, he was confirming that the person they were refering to was him. Like when someone calls on the phone and asks for you by name I respond; "This is he". I'm not sure if that's proper grammer, but you get what I mean?
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zelmia - Jul 21, 2004 1:57 pm (#41 of 105)
That's exactly what I mean NYCNomad. Perfect example!
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contess lillein asend - Jul 21, 2004 3:55 pm (#42 of 105)
Good Point. I guess I just keep thinking too darkly. I need to lighten up. Thanks
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haymoni - Jul 23, 2004 6:12 pm (#43 of 105)
Harry had just found out that he was famous. Up until that time, he had been a nobody, even in his own home. Hagrid had warned him that everyone would know him and know all about him and, since Harry hardly knew about himself, it probably felt like the Twins were talking about a Harry Potter that he didn't even know.
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Choices - Dec 25, 2004 6:07 pm (#44 of 105)
Yes, I think Harry was still trying to come to terms with his "new celebrity" and wondering what all the fuss was about. To me, it was almost like he was disappointed that they were asking about "the" Harry Potter and not just glad to see Harry Potter "the kid".
Last edited by Julia H. on Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:50 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Harry Potter Book Read Along Thread - Philosopher's / Sorcerer's Stone
Julia H. Sat Jun 25, 2011 8:25 am
Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's/Philosopher's Stone Book Read Along (Year 2006) (Chapter 1 or Posts 45-71)
Kip Carter - Feb 26, 2006 1:03 pm (#45 of 105)
Steve Newton requested to start a Read Along for the Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's/Philosopher's Stone Ch 1-4 for 2006. Let's begin the discussion here!
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Choices - Feb 26, 2006 7:52 pm (#46 of 105)
Excellent - shall we begin?
Chapter One
The first thing that I found interesting was a "large tawny owl" that fluttered past the window. I've always wondered if this was Dumbledore scoping out the Dursleys, or at least one of his spies.
Secondly, there was "a cat reading a map" on the corner. Why would the cat (Professor McGonagall) be reading a map? Was McGonagall unsure of where the Dursleys lived?
Third, I know that there are people who think the newsman "Ted" is Ted Tonks, but I think just the first name Ted is precious little to go on to assume that wizard Ted Tonks works for a muggle TV station.
Forth, I think the Put-Outer is just that - it puts out the lights along the street so that the Muggles are less likely to notice Dumbledore and what is going on. I just don't think it has any other special purposes like adding protection to the Dursley house or Privet Drive.
Fifth, we establish that Dumbledore is fond of sweets - Lemon Drops in particular.
Sixth, we see Dumbledore's unusual watch for the first time - twelve hands and no numbers.
Seventh, we meet Hagrid again, riding a huge motorcycle he borrowed from someone called Sirius Black. Do you think we should remember that name? LOL
Eighth, we learn that Harry will have his scar forever, and that Dumbledore has a scar on his knee. Dumbledore thinks scars can be handy.
To Harry Potter, the boy who lived!!
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Mrs Brisbee - Feb 27, 2006 7:38 am (#47 of 105)
Thank you, Steve Newton and Kip, for getting this started.
Not sure I have any brilliant observations about this chapter. Mostly I'm going to just gush about how much I love Chapter 1, "The Boy Who Lived".
I read on Rowling's web page about how the opening chapter went through many drafts. I'm glad she settled on this one. It starts from Vernon Dursley's point of view, and gives us an outsider's look in on the important events of that day. I think if we had started out knowing the events at Godric's Hollow it would be much harder to read the rest of the book from the point of view of The-Boy-Who-Doesn't-Ask-Questions. Rowling is able to keep things mysterious, and even humorous. One of my favorite things about Rowling is that she is very funny. I mean-- even though I am loath to identify with Vernon Dursley-- there are times when I've wished for the equivalent of a "perfectly normal, owl-free morning".
Besides a feel for the Dursleys, we also get a short synopsis of the war and the events at Godric's Hollow, and the appearance of three important characters.
McGonagall gets to be "the first sign of something peculiar-- a cat reading a map." This is my most favorite introduction to a character in all the books. I've always expected that she would be more important to the story than she has so far just because she was first and had such a great introduction.
Dumbledore is very well drawn. And Hagrid's introduction is priceless.
McGonagall comes acrossed as intelligent and tenacious at first-- she's figured out where Dumbledore is coming, and she's waited for him from morning to late at night, and she has questions. She accepts Dumbledore's reason for why Harry has to go to his aunt and uncle for too easily, though. She's observed the Dursleys all day and knows they are horrible, and tells Dumbledore as much. Why would she decide Dumbledore is right, and it is better for Harry to be raised by the Dursleys' than for him to grow up knowing he is famous? She doesn't seem to be in the know about Dumbledore's plans, nor was she invited to help out, unlike Hagrid.
Secondly, there was "a cat reading a map" on the corner. Why would the cat (Professor McGonagall) be reading a map? Was McGonagall unsure of where the Dursleys lived? --Choices
It seems she found out from Hagrid where Dumbledore was going early that morning, and then tracked down the Dursleys so she could wait for Dumbledore. So no, it doesn't look like she knew where they lived before that morning.
Third, I know that there are people who think the newsman "Ted" is Ted Tonks, but I think just the first name Ted is precious little to go on to assume that wizard Ted Tonks works for a muggle TV station.
You are right, of course. A fun thought, but why would a Muggle-Born wizard be a TV newsman? Ted is one of those repeat men's names.
Eighth, we learn that Harry will have his scar forever, and that Dumbledore has a scar on his knee. Dumbledore thinks scars can be handy.
Even at this early date, Dumbledore knows that there is something special about the scar. How much does he know, or guess?
The big unanswerable question I have (most everybody has) is why did it take all day for Hagrid to get Harry? What happened in those missing hours?
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Steve Newton - Feb 27, 2006 7:52 am (#48 of 105)
I haven't actually had a chance to sit down and reread chapter 1 yet. Maybe at lunch.
The Ted newscaster is one of my pet obsessions. There are very few repeated first names in the books. Ted is one of only 5 or so. It does seem worth noting.
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Mrs Brisbee - Feb 27, 2006 8:02 am (#49 of 105)
It IS worth noting. I think Rowling repeats mostly men's names (I know you had a list at one point, Steve). I think it is important because Rowling is showing that people can be linked by very simple things. It's like Tom Riddle having his father's given name, and sharing it with the Leaky Cauldron's barman too. I always feel a curiosity when I meet someone who shares my name. We feel curious about the two Teds because they share a name. Tom Riddle hated that connection though, and transformed himself into the one-of-a-kind Voldemort. It's interesting too that being saddled with "The Chosen One" moniker had made Harry feel like a race apart from the rest of humanity.
Edit I feel like I should expound on the meaning of names and nicknames, especially since this chapter is called "The Boy Who Lived", another moniker Harry gets stuck with (although it's not such a bad name, it still comes with baggage). I'll have to go away and think about it some more. There seems to be some sort of connection or theme or something about names-- those given or chosen, shared or unique-- that I can't quite translate into a coherent thought.
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Steve Newton - Feb 27, 2006 8:36 am (#50 of 105)
On a completely unrelated note. JKR has said that she chose Harry as a name because it is so common. Well Tom is pretty common, too. There is some vague point there but I haven't quite grasped it yet. I also think that there will be no character named Dick.
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Mrs Brisbee - Feb 27, 2006 9:31 am (#51 of 105)
LOL, yes, I think "Richard" is one name Rowling will purposely avoid using.
Good point about the name "Harry". Petunia says, "Harry. Nasty, common name, if you ask me."
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haymoni - Feb 27, 2006 9:44 am (#52 of 105)
Yes - as if "Dudley" was so much better!!!
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Netherlandic - Feb 27, 2006 10:25 am (#53 of 105)
What I really like is the fact that there is a bank where you can change Muggle money. I am glad JKR thought of this Muggle-Wizard solution. It makes reading more real.
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Choices - Feb 27, 2006 2:15 pm (#54 of 105)
That is one thing I love about these books also - they are so real. JKR has created a world that seems so possible. Thank goodness she has not made the wizarding world cartoonish - the locations and the characters are very believable.
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zelmia - Feb 27, 2006 2:50 pm (#55 of 105)
It's so difficult now to go back and read this book without automatically ascribing the hidden meaning of each detail that will become apparent only in later episodes of the saga. It's a bit of a double-edged sword, actually.
I always assumed that McGonagall was reading a map of the village or something. She obviously made it that far, after all. But it seems that Privet Drive and whatever-it-is Circle, etc may be very confusing to someone who doesn't live in the area. We've all had the experience of driving to someone's house for the first time, only to find that This Street is really a sort of dead end that picks up again on the other side of the park; or that That Drive only allows us to turn left when we need to turn right, and so on.
I agree about the Put-Outer. I don't think it has any other function.
I also agree that McGonagall is far too acquiescent with regard to leaving Harry with the Dursleys. But perhaps this is meant illustrate that she has the utmost faith and trust in Dumbledore, and she has learned not to question or to second guess his decisions of this nature. Interesting in light of what happened with Draco Malfoy recently.
Hard to understand how the Wizarding World can get along with only one bank. For that matter, there are precious few retail outlets no matter what the product. Must not be any such concept as "monopoly" there.
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haymoni - Feb 27, 2006 2:53 pm (#56 of 105)
Minerva may have been wanting to make sure that she was in the right place. One look at Vernon coming out of that house would have made me check a map!
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Aimee Shawn - Feb 27, 2006 6:24 pm (#57 of 105)
It was nice to be reminded, too, of how much Hagrid, DD, McGonagall, and Sirius cared about that little orphan. They were doing what they thought best for Harry. I suspect they thought the Dursleys would come to care about him, too. As much planning as went into getting Harry to 4PD I cannot imagine they would have thought that baby would not have his aunt's love and care.
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Mrs. Sirius - Feb 27, 2006 11:20 pm (#58 of 105)
Is Uncle Vernon always on the look out for strange things to disapprove of? Is he always afraid something unusual might happen? It is nice to see that he considers his wife enough that he wouldn’t want to upset her even with something like this.
Vernon recognizes shooting stars as something from the wizarding world, but has Petunia not mentioned the strange words her sister and that boy use, like muggle? Uncle Vernon went to work so it is a week day. Professor McGonegall has been here all day long, who is performing her normal duties? Or have all classes been cancelled, so that everyone could celebrate?
Eleven years DD has been trying to convince people to call him by his proper name. (1970)
So on his interesting watch DD has Hagrid, who else? Harry, the Potters?
DD asks “no problems…” after Hagrid says he got the bike from young Sirius Black but nothing else.
Hagrid is planning to return the bike now, so when did he borrow the bike before or after the attack?
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zelmia - Feb 28, 2006 3:33 am (#59 of 105)
Hagrid says later in PA that when he ran into Sirius while collecting Harry from Godric's Hollow, Sirius gave him the motorbike then.
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Steve Newton - Feb 28, 2006 7:20 am (#60 of 105)
Sorry to be so late with this.
Chapter 1-The Boy Who Lived
If there is ever a sequel I hope that chapter 1 of it can have the same title.
The Dursley's are very well introduced and described. The dismissive "Thank you very much" is perfect.
Where is that owl going? Figg's?
Do we know anyone who wears an emerald cloak?
Vernon has his back to the window. He refuses to let anything outside be a part of his world.
Do we know anyone who wears a violet cloak?
Vernon doesn't know the word muggle.
Dumbledore's nose looks as if it has been broken at least twice. When and where I wonder?
Dumbledore and Minerva are not overly close. Minerva doesn't know what lemon drops are and she is surprised that Dumbledore knows her animagus form.
Dumbledore is too noble to use dark powers. Is this a hint to his ancestry?
News travels fast in the wizarding world. And it seems to be pretty accurate. I didn't particularly notice the 24 hour gap between the events at Godric's Hollow and the arrival at Privet Drive the first time that I read the book.
Minerva doesn't know the plan.
"I would trust Hagrid with my life."
Hagrid flew over Bristol. Does this mean that Godric's Hollow is in Wales?
Dumbledore does not particularly react to the mention of Sirius who he must suspect of treason.
Harry will have the scar forever. If I really wanted to push things I would think that this might be a hint of the theme which cannot be discussed.
Why does Dumbledore think that his scar of the London Underground is so useful?
"The twinkling light that usually shone from Dumbledore's eyes seemed to have gone out."
The numbers 12 and 4 get mention.
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Mrs Brisbee - Feb 28, 2006 7:48 am (#61 of 105)
It was nice to be reminded, too, of how much Hagrid, DD, McGonagall, and Sirius cared about that little orphan. They were doing what they thought best for Harry. I suspect they thought the Dursleys would come to care about him, too. As much planning as went into getting Harry to 4PD I cannot imagine they would have thought that baby would not have his aunt's love and care. --Aimee Shawn
That's a fair point. From what McGonagall observed, it might have been expected that Harry would have been more likely to be spoiled rotten like Dudley (a pampered little prince, so to speak) rather than be neglected and abused like he was.
Zelmia had a good point earlier about how difficult it is to read the book as a stand-alone. We know from OotP that Dumbledore had been sending letters to Petunia, and the real reason Harry had to stay at his aunt's house. I can't help but to view events through the filter of all six books...
I haven't come to any conclusions about names, except that maybe we need to differentiate between given names, nicknames, and titles. A given name is usually assigned to someone by their family, so it is connected both to the family and to the person. Nicknames are also personal, more so even than the given name because it is often assigned with some trait of the individual in mind. It is often affectionate, but not always. "Diddykins" "Mollywobbles" "Potty" and Loony Luna" would all be nicknames. Titles are more like job descriptions that come with a public persona. "Lord Voldemort" and "The Boy Who Lived" are titles.
Harry has two personas: the commonly-named Harry, and The Boy Who Lived of the chapter title. Dumbledore claims to want to keep Harry away from being the latter until he is ready, which is somewhat true.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Feb 28, 2006 11:20 am (#62 of 105)
Another wizard that gets mentioned in this chapter is Daedulus Diggle.
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Steve Newton - Feb 28, 2006 11:37 am (#63 of 105)
DD, one of my favorite side characters. He is mostly used as a joke but in OOTP we find out that he is a member of the OOTP and is respected enough to be one of the advanced guard.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Feb 28, 2006 11:43 am (#64 of 105)
Steve, Dedalus Diggle's first name reminds me of Daedalus who constructed the labrynth for King Minos, and whose son Icarus was lost when they escaped from Minos.
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haymoni - Feb 28, 2006 12:19 pm (#65 of 105)
I just like saying it!!!
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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 1, 2006 4:43 am (#66 of 105)
Vernon has his back to the window. He refuses to let anything outside be a part of his world. --Steve Newton
Astute observation. A window is an opportunity to look outside your realm. Since the next chapter is "The Vanishing Glass", I thought the symbolism you note here is significant.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Mar 1, 2006 10:04 am (#67 of 105)
In essence when we are introduced to Vernon Dursley, we the readers meet a man who meet a man who is rigid, in personality habit and routine. Vernon Dursley is a man that refuses to acknowledge people whose ideas about what is conventional behavior, thoughts, perceptions, and ideals that differ from his own as equals. Indeed he treats them as inferiors.
Indeed viewing the books through the prism of all six books I would assert Vernon and Petunia Dursley are the Muggle equivalent to the Malfoy's.
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Steve Newton - Mar 1, 2006 10:19 am (#68 of 105)
I just reread a couple of posts from the earlier thread. It was noted that the weatherman assured Ted that it would rain that night. When Dumbledore arrives there is no rain. McGonagall in cat for stayed until he got there and I don't think that a cat would sit through any rain.
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Aimee Shawn - Mar 1, 2006 1:18 pm (#69 of 105)
Gee, a weatherman being wrong. Go figure.
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Steve Newton - Mar 1, 2006 1:46 pm (#70 of 105)
Hey, its a work of fiction.
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azi - Mar 1, 2006 2:25 pm (#71 of 105)
It might have rained later in the night. If we assume that Harry was dropped off around midnight (no canon for that, just guessing), there's still a few hours in which it could drizzle/rain etc.
Of course, this brings about the question of 'How did Harry and the letter stay dry?' Maybe the Dursley's have a roof over their front door which he was put under?
Kip Carter - Feb 26, 2006 1:03 pm (#45 of 105)
Steve Newton requested to start a Read Along for the Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's/Philosopher's Stone Ch 1-4 for 2006. Let's begin the discussion here!
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Choices - Feb 26, 2006 7:52 pm (#46 of 105)
Excellent - shall we begin?
Chapter One
The first thing that I found interesting was a "large tawny owl" that fluttered past the window. I've always wondered if this was Dumbledore scoping out the Dursleys, or at least one of his spies.
Secondly, there was "a cat reading a map" on the corner. Why would the cat (Professor McGonagall) be reading a map? Was McGonagall unsure of where the Dursleys lived?
Third, I know that there are people who think the newsman "Ted" is Ted Tonks, but I think just the first name Ted is precious little to go on to assume that wizard Ted Tonks works for a muggle TV station.
Forth, I think the Put-Outer is just that - it puts out the lights along the street so that the Muggles are less likely to notice Dumbledore and what is going on. I just don't think it has any other special purposes like adding protection to the Dursley house or Privet Drive.
Fifth, we establish that Dumbledore is fond of sweets - Lemon Drops in particular.
Sixth, we see Dumbledore's unusual watch for the first time - twelve hands and no numbers.
Seventh, we meet Hagrid again, riding a huge motorcycle he borrowed from someone called Sirius Black. Do you think we should remember that name? LOL
Eighth, we learn that Harry will have his scar forever, and that Dumbledore has a scar on his knee. Dumbledore thinks scars can be handy.
To Harry Potter, the boy who lived!!
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Mrs Brisbee - Feb 27, 2006 7:38 am (#47 of 105)
Thank you, Steve Newton and Kip, for getting this started.
Not sure I have any brilliant observations about this chapter. Mostly I'm going to just gush about how much I love Chapter 1, "The Boy Who Lived".
I read on Rowling's web page about how the opening chapter went through many drafts. I'm glad she settled on this one. It starts from Vernon Dursley's point of view, and gives us an outsider's look in on the important events of that day. I think if we had started out knowing the events at Godric's Hollow it would be much harder to read the rest of the book from the point of view of The-Boy-Who-Doesn't-Ask-Questions. Rowling is able to keep things mysterious, and even humorous. One of my favorite things about Rowling is that she is very funny. I mean-- even though I am loath to identify with Vernon Dursley-- there are times when I've wished for the equivalent of a "perfectly normal, owl-free morning".
Besides a feel for the Dursleys, we also get a short synopsis of the war and the events at Godric's Hollow, and the appearance of three important characters.
McGonagall gets to be "the first sign of something peculiar-- a cat reading a map." This is my most favorite introduction to a character in all the books. I've always expected that she would be more important to the story than she has so far just because she was first and had such a great introduction.
Dumbledore is very well drawn. And Hagrid's introduction is priceless.
McGonagall comes acrossed as intelligent and tenacious at first-- she's figured out where Dumbledore is coming, and she's waited for him from morning to late at night, and she has questions. She accepts Dumbledore's reason for why Harry has to go to his aunt and uncle for too easily, though. She's observed the Dursleys all day and knows they are horrible, and tells Dumbledore as much. Why would she decide Dumbledore is right, and it is better for Harry to be raised by the Dursleys' than for him to grow up knowing he is famous? She doesn't seem to be in the know about Dumbledore's plans, nor was she invited to help out, unlike Hagrid.
Secondly, there was "a cat reading a map" on the corner. Why would the cat (Professor McGonagall) be reading a map? Was McGonagall unsure of where the Dursleys lived? --Choices
It seems she found out from Hagrid where Dumbledore was going early that morning, and then tracked down the Dursleys so she could wait for Dumbledore. So no, it doesn't look like she knew where they lived before that morning.
Third, I know that there are people who think the newsman "Ted" is Ted Tonks, but I think just the first name Ted is precious little to go on to assume that wizard Ted Tonks works for a muggle TV station.
You are right, of course. A fun thought, but why would a Muggle-Born wizard be a TV newsman? Ted is one of those repeat men's names.
Eighth, we learn that Harry will have his scar forever, and that Dumbledore has a scar on his knee. Dumbledore thinks scars can be handy.
Even at this early date, Dumbledore knows that there is something special about the scar. How much does he know, or guess?
The big unanswerable question I have (most everybody has) is why did it take all day for Hagrid to get Harry? What happened in those missing hours?
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Steve Newton - Feb 27, 2006 7:52 am (#48 of 105)
I haven't actually had a chance to sit down and reread chapter 1 yet. Maybe at lunch.
The Ted newscaster is one of my pet obsessions. There are very few repeated first names in the books. Ted is one of only 5 or so. It does seem worth noting.
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Mrs Brisbee - Feb 27, 2006 8:02 am (#49 of 105)
It IS worth noting. I think Rowling repeats mostly men's names (I know you had a list at one point, Steve). I think it is important because Rowling is showing that people can be linked by very simple things. It's like Tom Riddle having his father's given name, and sharing it with the Leaky Cauldron's barman too. I always feel a curiosity when I meet someone who shares my name. We feel curious about the two Teds because they share a name. Tom Riddle hated that connection though, and transformed himself into the one-of-a-kind Voldemort. It's interesting too that being saddled with "The Chosen One" moniker had made Harry feel like a race apart from the rest of humanity.
Edit I feel like I should expound on the meaning of names and nicknames, especially since this chapter is called "The Boy Who Lived", another moniker Harry gets stuck with (although it's not such a bad name, it still comes with baggage). I'll have to go away and think about it some more. There seems to be some sort of connection or theme or something about names-- those given or chosen, shared or unique-- that I can't quite translate into a coherent thought.
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Steve Newton - Feb 27, 2006 8:36 am (#50 of 105)
On a completely unrelated note. JKR has said that she chose Harry as a name because it is so common. Well Tom is pretty common, too. There is some vague point there but I haven't quite grasped it yet. I also think that there will be no character named Dick.
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Mrs Brisbee - Feb 27, 2006 9:31 am (#51 of 105)
LOL, yes, I think "Richard" is one name Rowling will purposely avoid using.
Good point about the name "Harry". Petunia says, "Harry. Nasty, common name, if you ask me."
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haymoni - Feb 27, 2006 9:44 am (#52 of 105)
Yes - as if "Dudley" was so much better!!!
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Netherlandic - Feb 27, 2006 10:25 am (#53 of 105)
What I really like is the fact that there is a bank where you can change Muggle money. I am glad JKR thought of this Muggle-Wizard solution. It makes reading more real.
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Choices - Feb 27, 2006 2:15 pm (#54 of 105)
That is one thing I love about these books also - they are so real. JKR has created a world that seems so possible. Thank goodness she has not made the wizarding world cartoonish - the locations and the characters are very believable.
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zelmia - Feb 27, 2006 2:50 pm (#55 of 105)
It's so difficult now to go back and read this book without automatically ascribing the hidden meaning of each detail that will become apparent only in later episodes of the saga. It's a bit of a double-edged sword, actually.
I always assumed that McGonagall was reading a map of the village or something. She obviously made it that far, after all. But it seems that Privet Drive and whatever-it-is Circle, etc may be very confusing to someone who doesn't live in the area. We've all had the experience of driving to someone's house for the first time, only to find that This Street is really a sort of dead end that picks up again on the other side of the park; or that That Drive only allows us to turn left when we need to turn right, and so on.
I agree about the Put-Outer. I don't think it has any other function.
I also agree that McGonagall is far too acquiescent with regard to leaving Harry with the Dursleys. But perhaps this is meant illustrate that she has the utmost faith and trust in Dumbledore, and she has learned not to question or to second guess his decisions of this nature. Interesting in light of what happened with Draco Malfoy recently.
Hard to understand how the Wizarding World can get along with only one bank. For that matter, there are precious few retail outlets no matter what the product. Must not be any such concept as "monopoly" there.
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haymoni - Feb 27, 2006 2:53 pm (#56 of 105)
Minerva may have been wanting to make sure that she was in the right place. One look at Vernon coming out of that house would have made me check a map!
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Aimee Shawn - Feb 27, 2006 6:24 pm (#57 of 105)
It was nice to be reminded, too, of how much Hagrid, DD, McGonagall, and Sirius cared about that little orphan. They were doing what they thought best for Harry. I suspect they thought the Dursleys would come to care about him, too. As much planning as went into getting Harry to 4PD I cannot imagine they would have thought that baby would not have his aunt's love and care.
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Mrs. Sirius - Feb 27, 2006 11:20 pm (#58 of 105)
Is Uncle Vernon always on the look out for strange things to disapprove of? Is he always afraid something unusual might happen? It is nice to see that he considers his wife enough that he wouldn’t want to upset her even with something like this.
Vernon recognizes shooting stars as something from the wizarding world, but has Petunia not mentioned the strange words her sister and that boy use, like muggle? Uncle Vernon went to work so it is a week day. Professor McGonegall has been here all day long, who is performing her normal duties? Or have all classes been cancelled, so that everyone could celebrate?
Eleven years DD has been trying to convince people to call him by his proper name. (1970)
So on his interesting watch DD has Hagrid, who else? Harry, the Potters?
DD asks “no problems…” after Hagrid says he got the bike from young Sirius Black but nothing else.
Hagrid is planning to return the bike now, so when did he borrow the bike before or after the attack?
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zelmia - Feb 28, 2006 3:33 am (#59 of 105)
Hagrid says later in PA that when he ran into Sirius while collecting Harry from Godric's Hollow, Sirius gave him the motorbike then.
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Steve Newton - Feb 28, 2006 7:20 am (#60 of 105)
Sorry to be so late with this.
Chapter 1-The Boy Who Lived
If there is ever a sequel I hope that chapter 1 of it can have the same title.
The Dursley's are very well introduced and described. The dismissive "Thank you very much" is perfect.
Where is that owl going? Figg's?
Do we know anyone who wears an emerald cloak?
Vernon has his back to the window. He refuses to let anything outside be a part of his world.
Do we know anyone who wears a violet cloak?
Vernon doesn't know the word muggle.
Dumbledore's nose looks as if it has been broken at least twice. When and where I wonder?
Dumbledore and Minerva are not overly close. Minerva doesn't know what lemon drops are and she is surprised that Dumbledore knows her animagus form.
Dumbledore is too noble to use dark powers. Is this a hint to his ancestry?
News travels fast in the wizarding world. And it seems to be pretty accurate. I didn't particularly notice the 24 hour gap between the events at Godric's Hollow and the arrival at Privet Drive the first time that I read the book.
Minerva doesn't know the plan.
"I would trust Hagrid with my life."
Hagrid flew over Bristol. Does this mean that Godric's Hollow is in Wales?
Dumbledore does not particularly react to the mention of Sirius who he must suspect of treason.
Harry will have the scar forever. If I really wanted to push things I would think that this might be a hint of the theme which cannot be discussed.
Why does Dumbledore think that his scar of the London Underground is so useful?
"The twinkling light that usually shone from Dumbledore's eyes seemed to have gone out."
The numbers 12 and 4 get mention.
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Mrs Brisbee - Feb 28, 2006 7:48 am (#61 of 105)
It was nice to be reminded, too, of how much Hagrid, DD, McGonagall, and Sirius cared about that little orphan. They were doing what they thought best for Harry. I suspect they thought the Dursleys would come to care about him, too. As much planning as went into getting Harry to 4PD I cannot imagine they would have thought that baby would not have his aunt's love and care. --Aimee Shawn
That's a fair point. From what McGonagall observed, it might have been expected that Harry would have been more likely to be spoiled rotten like Dudley (a pampered little prince, so to speak) rather than be neglected and abused like he was.
Zelmia had a good point earlier about how difficult it is to read the book as a stand-alone. We know from OotP that Dumbledore had been sending letters to Petunia, and the real reason Harry had to stay at his aunt's house. I can't help but to view events through the filter of all six books...
I haven't come to any conclusions about names, except that maybe we need to differentiate between given names, nicknames, and titles. A given name is usually assigned to someone by their family, so it is connected both to the family and to the person. Nicknames are also personal, more so even than the given name because it is often assigned with some trait of the individual in mind. It is often affectionate, but not always. "Diddykins" "Mollywobbles" "Potty" and Loony Luna" would all be nicknames. Titles are more like job descriptions that come with a public persona. "Lord Voldemort" and "The Boy Who Lived" are titles.
Harry has two personas: the commonly-named Harry, and The Boy Who Lived of the chapter title. Dumbledore claims to want to keep Harry away from being the latter until he is ready, which is somewhat true.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Feb 28, 2006 11:20 am (#62 of 105)
Another wizard that gets mentioned in this chapter is Daedulus Diggle.
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Steve Newton - Feb 28, 2006 11:37 am (#63 of 105)
DD, one of my favorite side characters. He is mostly used as a joke but in OOTP we find out that he is a member of the OOTP and is respected enough to be one of the advanced guard.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Feb 28, 2006 11:43 am (#64 of 105)
Steve, Dedalus Diggle's first name reminds me of Daedalus who constructed the labrynth for King Minos, and whose son Icarus was lost when they escaped from Minos.
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haymoni - Feb 28, 2006 12:19 pm (#65 of 105)
I just like saying it!!!
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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 1, 2006 4:43 am (#66 of 105)
Vernon has his back to the window. He refuses to let anything outside be a part of his world. --Steve Newton
Astute observation. A window is an opportunity to look outside your realm. Since the next chapter is "The Vanishing Glass", I thought the symbolism you note here is significant.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Mar 1, 2006 10:04 am (#67 of 105)
In essence when we are introduced to Vernon Dursley, we the readers meet a man who meet a man who is rigid, in personality habit and routine. Vernon Dursley is a man that refuses to acknowledge people whose ideas about what is conventional behavior, thoughts, perceptions, and ideals that differ from his own as equals. Indeed he treats them as inferiors.
Indeed viewing the books through the prism of all six books I would assert Vernon and Petunia Dursley are the Muggle equivalent to the Malfoy's.
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Steve Newton - Mar 1, 2006 10:19 am (#68 of 105)
I just reread a couple of posts from the earlier thread. It was noted that the weatherman assured Ted that it would rain that night. When Dumbledore arrives there is no rain. McGonagall in cat for stayed until he got there and I don't think that a cat would sit through any rain.
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Aimee Shawn - Mar 1, 2006 1:18 pm (#69 of 105)
Gee, a weatherman being wrong. Go figure.
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Steve Newton - Mar 1, 2006 1:46 pm (#70 of 105)
Hey, its a work of fiction.
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azi - Mar 1, 2006 2:25 pm (#71 of 105)
It might have rained later in the night. If we assume that Harry was dropped off around midnight (no canon for that, just guessing), there's still a few hours in which it could drizzle/rain etc.
Of course, this brings about the question of 'How did Harry and the letter stay dry?' Maybe the Dursley's have a roof over their front door which he was put under?
Last edited by Julia H. on Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:58 am; edited 3 times in total
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Re: Harry Potter Book Read Along Thread - Philosopher's / Sorcerer's Stone
Julia H. Sat Jun 25, 2011 8:32 am
Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's/Philosopher's Stone Book Read Along (Year 2006) (Chapters 2-4 or Posts 72-105)
Mrs Brisbee - Mar 3, 2006 6:59 am (#72 of 105)
Maybe the basket had an Impervius Charm on it? Maybe the WWN Weather Diviner had predicted a warm clear night, and she's renowned for her accuracy so wizards and witches don't bother with what Muggle meteorologists have to say? Got me.
I was hoping someone else would post about chapter 2 first, because while reading I kept thinking, nah, won't take note on that, someone else is bound to mention it. So I have hardly any notes.
Chapter 2, "The Vanishing Glass":
The chapter is named after the window glass from the snake's cage that Harry makes disappear. Not only does Harry look through into the magical realm, he breaks through the barrier. Although most of the magic Harry has done has been uncontrolled-- including the glass vanishing-- once Harry finds he can talk with the snake he chooses to continue the conversation. It is the first time he has conciously chosen to use one of his magical abilities (even though he doesn't know it is a magical ability yet).
Three creatures that occur throughout the series are mentioned: spiders, slugs, and snakes. Slugs get an unflattering description (there aren't very many nice things you could say about a slug anyway), but spiders are treated neutrally, and the snake is downright likeable. It's even polite, remembering to say "Thanksss, Amigo" before slithering off.
The snake has been bred in captivity. It's desire is to go to Brazil, the place it should be were it free. Harry gives it the chance to make that journey (though the poor thing probably hasn't heard of the Atlantic Ocean).
Harry calls Dudley a pig in a wig. Pigs and Hogs get lots of mentions in the books too.
Pet is afraid Harry will blow up the house if they leave him there alone. A clue that she must know the details of her sister's death.
For Harry, sneakiness is a survival mechanism, learned from years of abuse by the Dursley's. He's put in his cupboard with no food, so his plan is to wait until they are all asleep and sneak to the kitchen to get food.
Are the "strange strangers" members of the Order set to protect Harry when he is outside of No.4 ?
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Choices - Mar 3, 2006 11:24 am (#73 of 105)
Chapter Two ....
Harry seems to have quite a good mind that stores away memories very well. He is having a dream about the flying motorcycle and thinks he has had the same dream before.
Harry and Dudley have birthdays very close together.
We learn that the only thing Harry likes about his appearence is his scar. He is small and rather skinny for his age.
Obviously the Dursleys don't take Harry with them when they go places if they can help it, although he seems to stay with Mrs. Figg only once a year on Dudley's birthday. He was to stay with Mrs. Figg, but she has broken her leg, and Harry thinks he will not have to look at pictures of her cats for another whole year.
Yes, Petunia's comment about coming back and finding the house in ruins, is clearly a reference to the Potter's house when they were killed. Petunia must think Harry had some responsibility for the house ending up as it did.
Harry is aware that strange things happen to him and around him - things he doesn't understand and feels he has no control over.
We see the first instance of Harry speaking Parceltongue, but he doesn't know he's doing it and neither do we until book 2.
We get a clear picture of how miserable a life Harry has lead for the past 10 years with the Dursleys.
But, all that is about to change.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Mar 3, 2006 5:24 pm (#74 of 105)
The mention of Brazil is interesting. Prior to its independence in 1822, Brazil was of the few colonies in the Americas governed by Portugal. J.K. Rowling spent several years in Portugal as a teacher.
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Steve Newton - Mar 3, 2006 9:04 pm (#75 of 105)
I've been off the internet for 24 hours with some strange computer thing. It refused to believe that we had a modem. My son wants me to hurry so...
Chapter 2-The Vanishing Glass
Lots of spiders under the stair.
Harry is fast.
Dudley is 4 times bigger than Harry. That pesky 4 again.
Mrs. Figg's house smells like cabbage.
The Dursley's treat Harry like a slug.
Why do they think that Harry will blow up the house? (I think that you folks have already nailed this one.)
Funny things that have happened to Harry: Hair growing, shrinking sweater, suddenly on the school roof(spontaneous apparition?).
Harry likes lemon ice. Dumbledore likes lemon drops.
The snake behind the glass. It is protected but isolated. The zoo image will recur in later books. It is also suggestive of Vernon in his office.
The snake wants to go to Brazil. Is this where one of the Weasley boys had a pen pal?
Piers seems almost friendly.
Wizards-Man in in a violet hat, a wild looking old woman dressed in green, a bald man in a purple coat.
Harry is totally isolated not friends at school and none at home. All because of the Dursley's.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Mar 3, 2006 9:59 pm (#76 of 105)
Steve,
Bill Weasley had a penfriend from Brazil that hexed him when he would not come and visit.
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Steve Newton - Mar 3, 2006 10:16 pm (#77 of 105)
DD again. I like it.
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Steve Newton - Mar 5, 2006 8:21 am (#78 of 105)
Chapter 3-The Letters From No One
Harry avoids Harry Hunting by getting out of the house.
Hogwarts or not Harry sees school as an escape.
Smelting is melting or fusing ores in order to separate metallic constituents. (American Heritage Dictionary online) The alchemy folks should like this.
Besides the Civil War general, Stonewall doesn't suggest a lot to me.
The first of the toilet references.
Already Harry is lippy. "I didn't realize it had to be so wet."
Harry dodges the Smeltings stick.
Harry doesn't belong to the library!
The ink on the letter is emerald green. His eye color?
First day-one letter, a Tuesday
How do they know where Harry sleeps?
Why is Vernon so against magic? How does he know of it?
Spiders again get a mention.
When JKR makes lists I always think that she is slipping one by me. In the room-Video camera, tank model, television set, bird cage, air rifle, and books. Is the bird cage later home to Hedwig?
Dudley through his tortoise through the greenhouse roof.
Second day-one letter, a Wednesday.
The house is being watched. From inside?
Third day-3 letters, a Thursday.
Fourth day-12 letters, a Friday.
Fifth day-24 letters inside of eggs, a Friday.
Isn't Colin's father a milkman?
Sixth day-Thirty to forty letters. A Sunday.
Seventh day-A 'undred letters. A Monday.
The first of several important boat rides. Hogwarts first years, and the trip in the cave. I guess the trip back to the mainland with Hagrid deserves a call.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Mar 5, 2006 10:36 am (#79 of 105)
Steve, the idea of the Stonewall reminds me of Robert Frost's poem. The Mending Wall.
SOMETHING there is that doesn’t love a wall That sends the frozen-ground-swell under it And spills the upper boulder in the sun, And make gaps even two can pass abreast. The work of hunters is another thing: I have come after them and made repair Where they have left not one stone on a stone, But they would have the rabbit out of hiding, To please the yelping dogs. The gaps I mean, No one has seen them made or heard them made, But at spring mending-time we find them there, I let my neighbor know beyond the hill; And on a day we meet to walk the line And set the wall between us once again. We keep the wall between us as we go. To each the boulders that have fallen to each. And some are loaves and some so nearly balls We have to use a spell to make them balance: "Stay where you are until our backs are turned!" We wear our fingers rough with handling them. Oh, just another kind of outdoor game, One on a side. It comes to little more: There where it is we do not need the wall: He is all pine and I am apple orchard. My apple trees will never get across And eat the cones under his pines, I tell him. He only says, "Good fences make good neighbors." Spring is the mischief in me, and I wonder If I could put a notion in his head: "Why do they make good neighbors? Isn't it Where there are cows? But here there are no cows. Before I built a wall I'd ask to know What I was walling in or walling out, And to whom I was like to give offense. Something there is that doesn't love a wall, That wants it down." I could say "Elves" to him, But it's not elves exactly, and I'd rather He said it for himself. I see him there, Bringing a stone grasped firmly by the top In each hand, like an old-stone savage armed. He moves in darkness as it seems to me, Not of woods only and the shade of trees. He will not go behind his father's saying, And he likes having thought of it so well He says again, "Good fences make good neighbors."
The name Stonewall High, reminds me that the Dursley's do not want outside influences causing disturbances in their private lives. Indeed Vernon Dursley views the letters from Hogwarts as something dangerous, because, the Dursley's have been intentionally concealing the truth about Harry's origins from Harry. The Dursley's view the letters as not only a threat to the deceprion and false appearances they have carefully constructed. The Dursley's, Petunia in particular fears the reponse of Albus Dumbledore and others in the Wizarding World when the deception is revealled.
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Aimee Shawn - Mar 5, 2006 11:28 am (#80 of 105)
According to Webster's Dictionary stonewalling means, "obstructing or permanently stopping something". Quite appropriate to what the Dursley's want for Harry: to permanently stop the magic in him.
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Choices - Mar 5, 2006 11:46 am (#81 of 105)
Chapter Three.....
Aimee beat me to the definition of stonewall - to come to the end of something is to come up against a stonewall. Harry's Muggle existence is about to come to an end.
I think everyone else has covered this chapter pretty well. We surely see what a spoiled brat Dudley is and we also see to what lengths Mr. Dursley will go in his denial of what Harry truly is. He might as well try to change Harry's eye color or his height. Harry is a wizard and no amount of denial on the Dursley's part will alter that fact.
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Aimee Shawn - Mar 5, 2006 4:49 pm (#82 of 105)
Just an aside... Wouldn't you love to see the kind of man Dudley turns out to be? I like to see him falling in love with a dominating woman who bullys the heck out of him. Teeheehee!
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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 6, 2006 7:44 am (#83 of 105)
I like all your takes on "stonewall".
Does anyone know why this chapter is called "The Letters From No One"? The letters are from someone, just someone unknown.
Already Harry is lippy. "I didn't realize it had to be so wet." --Steve Newton
I so love book Harry! He is such a mouthy little twerp. I saw the first and second movies before I had read the books, and was enchanted by the all the extra facets and richness in the books that just couldn't be fit into the movies.
I think Harry's sarcasm is one of the few ways he has found to fight back against the Dursleys. They are all bigger and more powerful than he is at the moment, but he has discovered the power of words. He uses them to push just enough around the edges to irritate them. He knows just the right buttons to push, and sometimes he goes to far. His talent for finding just the right thing to say to send his opponent into a rage is a talent he'll continue to hone throughout the books.
The ink on the letter is emerald green. His eye color?
I was wondering too why the ink is green. Harry's eyes are green, green is the color of life (thinking Osiris here), green is associated with Slytherin, McGonagall wrote the letter and she seems to like green. Not coming up with a pattern here for green.
Harry dodges the Smeltings stick.
Nice pick up about "smelting", Steve. There is also a point when everyone gets hit a lot with the smelting stick-- on the second day when Uncle Vernon sends Dudley to get the mail, then has to fight both Dudley and Harry to get the letter.
Harry does stand up to Uncle Vernon over the letter. He doesn't win of course, but he won't go down without a fight. Next he tries sneakiness --true to type-- but that fails to (Vernon knows his opponent enough to know what to expect).
Why is Vernon so against magic? How does he know of it?
Vernon is the one convinced that they will be able to ignore the letter if they just try hard enough. Petunia isn't so sure, though she follows Vernon's plan. Vernon must have had some encounter with magic before, but he doesn't know much about it. We've seen that he doesn't want to know much about anything he finds strange. From his comments about Lily in chapter one, it sounds like he at least met Lily on one occasion. Petunia grew up with a witch, and can't help but have a more realistic view about what will happen and the capabilities of the magical community. She must remember when Lily got her letter and a magical representative showed up on their doorstep.
The first of several important boat rides. Hogwarts first years, and the trip in the cave. I guess the trip back to the mainland with Hagrid deserves a call.
Sounds like boat rides are very important images. Crossing water sounds to me like making a journey across a definitive border, but it probably has some established mythological meaning too. Sort of like the Odyssey is the ultimate road trip story: You have to cross a lot of water to get where you need to go.
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Steve Newton - Mar 6, 2006 7:55 am (#84 of 105)
I have missed a lot of classical references but the only mythical boat ride I can think of is across the River Styx into Hades. I should remember the boatman's name but don't.
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haymoni - Mar 6, 2006 8:03 am (#85 of 105)
Isn't it Charon or something like that?
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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 6, 2006 8:20 am (#86 of 105)
That's a definite border crossing-- from the land of the living to the land of the dead. And we even have a three-headed dog show up in the story later.
Yes, Charon.
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Steve Newton - Mar 6, 2006 8:52 am (#87 of 105)
Thanks for the heads up on Charon. I remembered a few minutes ago but you beat me to it. Another boat trip that comes to mind is Jason and the cruise of the Argo. I don't really see it here, though.
It occurred to me a while back that the most ironic person to come to magic late in life would be Vernon. It seems to me that there are hints that he knows magic but wants nothing to do with it.
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Choices - Mar 6, 2006 11:19 am (#88 of 105)
Didn't the Vikings have a thing about placing their dead on a boat, pushing it out into the water and setting it on fire? Sort of a symbolic crossing from life into death via water and fire.
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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 6, 2006 1:00 pm (#89 of 105)
Well, I think that we can all agree then that crossing water means crossing a significant border from here to there (wherever "there" might be).
There was also another window reference this chapter. In the hotel, after Dudley goes to sleep, Harry stays up staring out the window wondering about the letters.
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Choices - Mar 6, 2006 1:31 pm (#90 of 105)
Ohhh, you made me remember the crossing of the cave lake with Dumbledore in HBP. That was certainly a rite of passage for Harry - going in he was with Dumbledore and coming out, Dumbledore was with Harry. That gives me chills...even now.
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Aimee Shawn - Mar 6, 2006 9:03 pm (#91 of 105)
Also, first year students at Hogwarts got to the castle on boats. After that, they went by carriage. More symbolic crossing the water.
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Steve Newton - Mar 7, 2006 1:06 pm (#92 of 105)
I was wondering when Denise would put up the thread for chapter 5-8 and then realized that we haven't done chapter 4 yet. Another senior moment. Here goes.
Chapter 4-The Keeper of the Keys
Keys could possibly be one of many musical references-quidditch pitch, people speaking airily, possibly mention of sharp or flat. Doesn't Dumbledore call music a form of magic?
Dudley squeaked-Mouse like?
Petunia and Dudley hide behind Vernon. Is Vernon actually being brave?
The beetle eyed description is repeated.
The first of many mentions of his mother's eyes.
"Gallopin' gorgons" Gorgons are in Greek mythology. They are pretty nasty. Medusa was one. Alliteration is appearing.
Hagrid says the name Voldemort. I don't know if he connects it with Riddle.
The cut is what happens when a powerful, evil curses touches you. According to Hagrid.
The McKinnonns, the Bones', and the Prewetts were killed by Voldemort.
Harry remembers more of the night at Godric's Hollow. Despite never asking this seems to be his quest throughout the books, discovering what happened the night his parents died. Ours, too. I suspect that his later lack of success with his patronus, until the dementors really attack, is because they are allowing him to see parts of that night.
I certainly hope that the cruel laugh that he remembers was Voldemort.
"Dunno if he had enough human left in him to die." Nor do we.
Hagrid doubts that Voldemort is coming back but also doesn't think that he is dead. Odd, that.
Harry does magic when hi is upset or angry.
"Seven years there and he won't know himself." Will we?
Hagrid was allowed to use magic to follow Harry and get his letters to him. Some of this magic looked pretty good to me.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Mar 7, 2006 4:18 pm (#93 of 105)
The McKinnonns, the Bones', and the Prewetts were killed by Voldemort.
Each of the families mentioned by Hagrid is connected to Dumbledore through the OotP.
Marlene McKinnon was the first member of the original Order to be killed by the Death Eaters
Edgar Bones was killed by Voldemort and the Death Eaters During the first war with Voldemort, his sister Amelia was killed in the opening stages of the second war with Voldemort.
The Prewetts (Fabian and Gideon) were murdered by five death eaters. Also, the Prewetts are the uncles of the Weasley's because, their sister Molly married Arthur Weasley.
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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 7, 2006 7:53 pm (#94 of 105)
Petunia and Dudley hide behind Vernon. Is Vernon actually being brave? --Steve Newton
I think so. Even big nasty jerks can display courage, and attempt to protect their family.
"Gallopin' gorgons" Gorgons are in Greek mythology. They are pretty nasty. Medusa was one. Alliteration is appearing.
Interesting. So are these fast moving snake-haired monsters? Hagrid also says "Gulpin' gargoyles". I'm a bit fuzzy on the original French legend, but the gargoyle was a dragon that lived in a river. I think some saint or other killed it. Not sure if this means anything. Later they became grotesque critters that adorn buildings. Don't building gargoyles serve some sort of symbolic purpose? I better go hit the encyclodedias....
Harry remembers more of the night at Godric's Hollow. Despite never asking this seems to be his quest throughout the books, discovering what happened the night his parents died. Ours, too.
You're right. Rowling has been very secretive about that night. There must be a few big revelations about that night in store for us.
Some other things:
Vernon says about Hagrid's sausages: "Don't touch anything he gives you, Dudley." Isn't there some myth that if you eat food in the fairy realm you get stuck there? Or am I mixing this up with Greek mythology? Certainly Persephone ate seven pomegranate seeds while in Hades, and through a brokered deal had to spend seven months in Hades but the other five months of the year above ground (because of her mother). Somehow I'm seeing the six sausages as Harry being brought partway into the wizarding world, but it is still necessary for him to live part time in the Muggle world.
Hagrid expected Harry to know about Hogwarts, and that his parents where magic. Hagrid's expectations seem to indicate that whatever means Dumbledore uses to keep an eye on Harry and the Dursleys, it doesn't include intimate knowledge of what goes on inside their house.
Hagrid says Voldemort "Disappeared", "Vanished". Sounds definitely like no body was found. "Most of us reckon he's still out there somewhere but lost his powers." People coming out of trances and Voldemort's organization collapsing were the signs of him being gone. How long did it take? Halloween night the Potters were murdered. The next morning the rumors about the Potters are making the rounds and the plan to recover Harry is already underway when Vernon notices the cat reading the map. Wizards and witches are celebrating all day November First. We still don't know who was spreading the tale about what had happened at Godric Hollow.
Why does Hagrid cast the spell on Dudley instead of Vernon?
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Steve Newton - Mar 7, 2006 8:17 pm (#95 of 105)
Why does Hagrid cast the spell on Dudley instead of Vernon?
Good question. Perhaps there is more to Vernon than we recognize.
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haymoni - Mar 8, 2006 6:52 am (#96 of 105)
I hope this isn't movie contamination, but the kid stole Harry's cake!!
He is a pig!
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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 8, 2006 7:11 am (#97 of 105)
Yup, movie contamination. Though he is a pig.
Maybe it's just because the book is so "eleven". I think kids who read the book want Dudley to get his comeuppance for the way he's treated Harry. The adults, Vernon and Petunia, have already lost the power struggle to Hagrid, so there is already some satisfaction there.
I remember reading once about some laws written on ancient stele, and one of them stated that if a man killed another man's daughter, then his daughter will be killed in retaliation. Yeah, not really fair to the daughter, but it showed a different idea of justice based on the family instead of the individual. The wizarding world does seem to be very family orientated. Maybe Hagrid just thinks like those ancient stele writers.
Edit: Almost forgot about the gargoyles.
A gargoyle is the spout on a gutter. The Greeks originated them to keep the rainwater from damaging buildings, and most often made them decorative lion's heads (the water spout being the lion's mouth).
The tale I was thinking of concerned a giant dragon called Garguoille (throat) in the Seine that was causing floods. Saint Romain used a convicted prisoner as a lure to get the dragon to come ashore, where it was slain. Apparently the dragon was so frightful that it's visage would scare away even evil spirits, and so the myth goes that statues of it were carved and put on buildings. To commemorate the death of the dragon, a tradition arose that once a year a convicted prisoner would be released.
Not sure if any of this is relevant.
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Choices - Mar 8, 2006 10:32 am (#98 of 105)
I think the reason Hagrid put the pig's tail on Dudley is that it would have more of an impact on Vernon to have his child suffer than himself. I'd much rather someone hurt me than hurt my child.
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Choices - Mar 8, 2006 7:49 pm (#99 of 105)
Chapter 4.....
I really don't have much to add to what has already been said. I am curious as to what Dumbledore did to earn his Order of Merlin, First Class.
How did Lily escape MOM notice when she did magic at home - turning teacups into rats?
Lily and James were head boy and head girl....in their day.
Hagrid states he was the one who took Harry from the ruined house. For some reason though, Hagrid does not believe Voldemort is still out there.
Great man, Dumbledore! I agree.
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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 9, 2006 6:57 am (#100 of 105)
How did Lily escape MOM notice when she did magic at home - turning teacups into rats?
I have this vague memory of Rowling answering that question in an interview or something, but I can't remember when or where. Anyway, it seems likely that the MoM can't detect every bit of magic that is done. From OotP I got the impression that the Dursley's house is monitered extra closely. It's also possible that they did detect Lily doing magic every once in a while, and a few notices flew her way. Harry had the problem of Dursley's hating him and the MoM out to get him, and the magic being done where other Muggles (like the Masons) might see it. Underage magic done in one's home in front of one's family probably happens quite a bit, and the MoM probably usually deals with it in a much more low-key manner than we saw with Harry.
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Amilia Smith - Mar 10, 2006 1:02 am (#101 of 105)
Yeah, you pretty much summed up Jo's answer, Mrs. Brisbee. But if you want the exact wording from the website:
In "Philosopher's Stone" Aunt Petunia says that Lily came back from Hogwarts with frog spawn in her pockets and turned teacups into rats. If this is true, why wasn't Lily expelled?
Aunt Petunia is exaggerating a little; you have to allow for her state of mind when she started shrieking these things. However, just like her son, Lily was not averse to testing the limits of the Statute of Secrecy, so you can safely assume she will have had a few warning letters – nothing too serious, though.
End quote.
Mills.
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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 10, 2006 7:17 am (#102 of 105)
Thank you, Mills. I thought it was on her website, but couldn't find it yesterday. I'm too easily distracted by bright shiny objects, and ended up hunting the Easter eggs instead
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Steve Newton - Mar 13, 2006 7:02 am (#103 of 105)
I have emailed Denise about starting a thread for the next 4 chapters. Bounced back. Should I start one or should we wait?
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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 13, 2006 7:15 am (#104 of 105)
I'll try Questions for the Hosts.
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Steve Newton - Mar 13, 2006 8:15 am (#105 of 105)
I just saw that you asked them. Now, as to the question of why I didn't think of that...
Thanks.
Mrs Brisbee - Mar 3, 2006 6:59 am (#72 of 105)
Maybe the basket had an Impervius Charm on it? Maybe the WWN Weather Diviner had predicted a warm clear night, and she's renowned for her accuracy so wizards and witches don't bother with what Muggle meteorologists have to say? Got me.
I was hoping someone else would post about chapter 2 first, because while reading I kept thinking, nah, won't take note on that, someone else is bound to mention it. So I have hardly any notes.
Chapter 2, "The Vanishing Glass":
The chapter is named after the window glass from the snake's cage that Harry makes disappear. Not only does Harry look through into the magical realm, he breaks through the barrier. Although most of the magic Harry has done has been uncontrolled-- including the glass vanishing-- once Harry finds he can talk with the snake he chooses to continue the conversation. It is the first time he has conciously chosen to use one of his magical abilities (even though he doesn't know it is a magical ability yet).
Three creatures that occur throughout the series are mentioned: spiders, slugs, and snakes. Slugs get an unflattering description (there aren't very many nice things you could say about a slug anyway), but spiders are treated neutrally, and the snake is downright likeable. It's even polite, remembering to say "Thanksss, Amigo" before slithering off.
The snake has been bred in captivity. It's desire is to go to Brazil, the place it should be were it free. Harry gives it the chance to make that journey (though the poor thing probably hasn't heard of the Atlantic Ocean).
Harry calls Dudley a pig in a wig. Pigs and Hogs get lots of mentions in the books too.
Pet is afraid Harry will blow up the house if they leave him there alone. A clue that she must know the details of her sister's death.
For Harry, sneakiness is a survival mechanism, learned from years of abuse by the Dursley's. He's put in his cupboard with no food, so his plan is to wait until they are all asleep and sneak to the kitchen to get food.
Are the "strange strangers" members of the Order set to protect Harry when he is outside of No.4 ?
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Choices - Mar 3, 2006 11:24 am (#73 of 105)
Chapter Two ....
Harry seems to have quite a good mind that stores away memories very well. He is having a dream about the flying motorcycle and thinks he has had the same dream before.
Harry and Dudley have birthdays very close together.
We learn that the only thing Harry likes about his appearence is his scar. He is small and rather skinny for his age.
Obviously the Dursleys don't take Harry with them when they go places if they can help it, although he seems to stay with Mrs. Figg only once a year on Dudley's birthday. He was to stay with Mrs. Figg, but she has broken her leg, and Harry thinks he will not have to look at pictures of her cats for another whole year.
Yes, Petunia's comment about coming back and finding the house in ruins, is clearly a reference to the Potter's house when they were killed. Petunia must think Harry had some responsibility for the house ending up as it did.
Harry is aware that strange things happen to him and around him - things he doesn't understand and feels he has no control over.
We see the first instance of Harry speaking Parceltongue, but he doesn't know he's doing it and neither do we until book 2.
We get a clear picture of how miserable a life Harry has lead for the past 10 years with the Dursleys.
But, all that is about to change.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Mar 3, 2006 5:24 pm (#74 of 105)
The mention of Brazil is interesting. Prior to its independence in 1822, Brazil was of the few colonies in the Americas governed by Portugal. J.K. Rowling spent several years in Portugal as a teacher.
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Steve Newton - Mar 3, 2006 9:04 pm (#75 of 105)
I've been off the internet for 24 hours with some strange computer thing. It refused to believe that we had a modem. My son wants me to hurry so...
Chapter 2-The Vanishing Glass
Lots of spiders under the stair.
Harry is fast.
Dudley is 4 times bigger than Harry. That pesky 4 again.
Mrs. Figg's house smells like cabbage.
The Dursley's treat Harry like a slug.
Why do they think that Harry will blow up the house? (I think that you folks have already nailed this one.)
Funny things that have happened to Harry: Hair growing, shrinking sweater, suddenly on the school roof(spontaneous apparition?).
Harry likes lemon ice. Dumbledore likes lemon drops.
The snake behind the glass. It is protected but isolated. The zoo image will recur in later books. It is also suggestive of Vernon in his office.
The snake wants to go to Brazil. Is this where one of the Weasley boys had a pen pal?
Piers seems almost friendly.
Wizards-Man in in a violet hat, a wild looking old woman dressed in green, a bald man in a purple coat.
Harry is totally isolated not friends at school and none at home. All because of the Dursley's.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Mar 3, 2006 9:59 pm (#76 of 105)
Steve,
Bill Weasley had a penfriend from Brazil that hexed him when he would not come and visit.
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Steve Newton - Mar 3, 2006 10:16 pm (#77 of 105)
DD again. I like it.
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Steve Newton - Mar 5, 2006 8:21 am (#78 of 105)
Chapter 3-The Letters From No One
Harry avoids Harry Hunting by getting out of the house.
Hogwarts or not Harry sees school as an escape.
Smelting is melting or fusing ores in order to separate metallic constituents. (American Heritage Dictionary online) The alchemy folks should like this.
Besides the Civil War general, Stonewall doesn't suggest a lot to me.
The first of the toilet references.
Already Harry is lippy. "I didn't realize it had to be so wet."
Harry dodges the Smeltings stick.
Harry doesn't belong to the library!
The ink on the letter is emerald green. His eye color?
First day-one letter, a Tuesday
How do they know where Harry sleeps?
Why is Vernon so against magic? How does he know of it?
Spiders again get a mention.
When JKR makes lists I always think that she is slipping one by me. In the room-Video camera, tank model, television set, bird cage, air rifle, and books. Is the bird cage later home to Hedwig?
Dudley through his tortoise through the greenhouse roof.
Second day-one letter, a Wednesday.
The house is being watched. From inside?
Third day-3 letters, a Thursday.
Fourth day-12 letters, a Friday.
Fifth day-24 letters inside of eggs, a Friday.
Isn't Colin's father a milkman?
Sixth day-Thirty to forty letters. A Sunday.
Seventh day-A 'undred letters. A Monday.
The first of several important boat rides. Hogwarts first years, and the trip in the cave. I guess the trip back to the mainland with Hagrid deserves a call.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Mar 5, 2006 10:36 am (#79 of 105)
Steve, the idea of the Stonewall reminds me of Robert Frost's poem. The Mending Wall.
SOMETHING there is that doesn’t love a wall That sends the frozen-ground-swell under it And spills the upper boulder in the sun, And make gaps even two can pass abreast. The work of hunters is another thing: I have come after them and made repair Where they have left not one stone on a stone, But they would have the rabbit out of hiding, To please the yelping dogs. The gaps I mean, No one has seen them made or heard them made, But at spring mending-time we find them there, I let my neighbor know beyond the hill; And on a day we meet to walk the line And set the wall between us once again. We keep the wall between us as we go. To each the boulders that have fallen to each. And some are loaves and some so nearly balls We have to use a spell to make them balance: "Stay where you are until our backs are turned!" We wear our fingers rough with handling them. Oh, just another kind of outdoor game, One on a side. It comes to little more: There where it is we do not need the wall: He is all pine and I am apple orchard. My apple trees will never get across And eat the cones under his pines, I tell him. He only says, "Good fences make good neighbors." Spring is the mischief in me, and I wonder If I could put a notion in his head: "Why do they make good neighbors? Isn't it Where there are cows? But here there are no cows. Before I built a wall I'd ask to know What I was walling in or walling out, And to whom I was like to give offense. Something there is that doesn't love a wall, That wants it down." I could say "Elves" to him, But it's not elves exactly, and I'd rather He said it for himself. I see him there, Bringing a stone grasped firmly by the top In each hand, like an old-stone savage armed. He moves in darkness as it seems to me, Not of woods only and the shade of trees. He will not go behind his father's saying, And he likes having thought of it so well He says again, "Good fences make good neighbors."
The name Stonewall High, reminds me that the Dursley's do not want outside influences causing disturbances in their private lives. Indeed Vernon Dursley views the letters from Hogwarts as something dangerous, because, the Dursley's have been intentionally concealing the truth about Harry's origins from Harry. The Dursley's view the letters as not only a threat to the deceprion and false appearances they have carefully constructed. The Dursley's, Petunia in particular fears the reponse of Albus Dumbledore and others in the Wizarding World when the deception is revealled.
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Aimee Shawn - Mar 5, 2006 11:28 am (#80 of 105)
According to Webster's Dictionary stonewalling means, "obstructing or permanently stopping something". Quite appropriate to what the Dursley's want for Harry: to permanently stop the magic in him.
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Choices - Mar 5, 2006 11:46 am (#81 of 105)
Chapter Three.....
Aimee beat me to the definition of stonewall - to come to the end of something is to come up against a stonewall. Harry's Muggle existence is about to come to an end.
I think everyone else has covered this chapter pretty well. We surely see what a spoiled brat Dudley is and we also see to what lengths Mr. Dursley will go in his denial of what Harry truly is. He might as well try to change Harry's eye color or his height. Harry is a wizard and no amount of denial on the Dursley's part will alter that fact.
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Aimee Shawn - Mar 5, 2006 4:49 pm (#82 of 105)
Just an aside... Wouldn't you love to see the kind of man Dudley turns out to be? I like to see him falling in love with a dominating woman who bullys the heck out of him. Teeheehee!
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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 6, 2006 7:44 am (#83 of 105)
I like all your takes on "stonewall".
Does anyone know why this chapter is called "The Letters From No One"? The letters are from someone, just someone unknown.
Already Harry is lippy. "I didn't realize it had to be so wet." --Steve Newton
I so love book Harry! He is such a mouthy little twerp. I saw the first and second movies before I had read the books, and was enchanted by the all the extra facets and richness in the books that just couldn't be fit into the movies.
I think Harry's sarcasm is one of the few ways he has found to fight back against the Dursleys. They are all bigger and more powerful than he is at the moment, but he has discovered the power of words. He uses them to push just enough around the edges to irritate them. He knows just the right buttons to push, and sometimes he goes to far. His talent for finding just the right thing to say to send his opponent into a rage is a talent he'll continue to hone throughout the books.
The ink on the letter is emerald green. His eye color?
I was wondering too why the ink is green. Harry's eyes are green, green is the color of life (thinking Osiris here), green is associated with Slytherin, McGonagall wrote the letter and she seems to like green. Not coming up with a pattern here for green.
Harry dodges the Smeltings stick.
Nice pick up about "smelting", Steve. There is also a point when everyone gets hit a lot with the smelting stick-- on the second day when Uncle Vernon sends Dudley to get the mail, then has to fight both Dudley and Harry to get the letter.
Harry does stand up to Uncle Vernon over the letter. He doesn't win of course, but he won't go down without a fight. Next he tries sneakiness --true to type-- but that fails to (Vernon knows his opponent enough to know what to expect).
Why is Vernon so against magic? How does he know of it?
Vernon is the one convinced that they will be able to ignore the letter if they just try hard enough. Petunia isn't so sure, though she follows Vernon's plan. Vernon must have had some encounter with magic before, but he doesn't know much about it. We've seen that he doesn't want to know much about anything he finds strange. From his comments about Lily in chapter one, it sounds like he at least met Lily on one occasion. Petunia grew up with a witch, and can't help but have a more realistic view about what will happen and the capabilities of the magical community. She must remember when Lily got her letter and a magical representative showed up on their doorstep.
The first of several important boat rides. Hogwarts first years, and the trip in the cave. I guess the trip back to the mainland with Hagrid deserves a call.
Sounds like boat rides are very important images. Crossing water sounds to me like making a journey across a definitive border, but it probably has some established mythological meaning too. Sort of like the Odyssey is the ultimate road trip story: You have to cross a lot of water to get where you need to go.
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Steve Newton - Mar 6, 2006 7:55 am (#84 of 105)
I have missed a lot of classical references but the only mythical boat ride I can think of is across the River Styx into Hades. I should remember the boatman's name but don't.
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haymoni - Mar 6, 2006 8:03 am (#85 of 105)
Isn't it Charon or something like that?
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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 6, 2006 8:20 am (#86 of 105)
That's a definite border crossing-- from the land of the living to the land of the dead. And we even have a three-headed dog show up in the story later.
Yes, Charon.
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Steve Newton - Mar 6, 2006 8:52 am (#87 of 105)
Thanks for the heads up on Charon. I remembered a few minutes ago but you beat me to it. Another boat trip that comes to mind is Jason and the cruise of the Argo. I don't really see it here, though.
It occurred to me a while back that the most ironic person to come to magic late in life would be Vernon. It seems to me that there are hints that he knows magic but wants nothing to do with it.
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Choices - Mar 6, 2006 11:19 am (#88 of 105)
Didn't the Vikings have a thing about placing their dead on a boat, pushing it out into the water and setting it on fire? Sort of a symbolic crossing from life into death via water and fire.
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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 6, 2006 1:00 pm (#89 of 105)
Well, I think that we can all agree then that crossing water means crossing a significant border from here to there (wherever "there" might be).
There was also another window reference this chapter. In the hotel, after Dudley goes to sleep, Harry stays up staring out the window wondering about the letters.
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Choices - Mar 6, 2006 1:31 pm (#90 of 105)
Ohhh, you made me remember the crossing of the cave lake with Dumbledore in HBP. That was certainly a rite of passage for Harry - going in he was with Dumbledore and coming out, Dumbledore was with Harry. That gives me chills...even now.
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Aimee Shawn - Mar 6, 2006 9:03 pm (#91 of 105)
Also, first year students at Hogwarts got to the castle on boats. After that, they went by carriage. More symbolic crossing the water.
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Steve Newton - Mar 7, 2006 1:06 pm (#92 of 105)
I was wondering when Denise would put up the thread for chapter 5-8 and then realized that we haven't done chapter 4 yet. Another senior moment. Here goes.
Chapter 4-The Keeper of the Keys
Keys could possibly be one of many musical references-quidditch pitch, people speaking airily, possibly mention of sharp or flat. Doesn't Dumbledore call music a form of magic?
Dudley squeaked-Mouse like?
Petunia and Dudley hide behind Vernon. Is Vernon actually being brave?
The beetle eyed description is repeated.
The first of many mentions of his mother's eyes.
"Gallopin' gorgons" Gorgons are in Greek mythology. They are pretty nasty. Medusa was one. Alliteration is appearing.
Hagrid says the name Voldemort. I don't know if he connects it with Riddle.
The cut is what happens when a powerful, evil curses touches you. According to Hagrid.
The McKinnonns, the Bones', and the Prewetts were killed by Voldemort.
Harry remembers more of the night at Godric's Hollow. Despite never asking this seems to be his quest throughout the books, discovering what happened the night his parents died. Ours, too. I suspect that his later lack of success with his patronus, until the dementors really attack, is because they are allowing him to see parts of that night.
I certainly hope that the cruel laugh that he remembers was Voldemort.
"Dunno if he had enough human left in him to die." Nor do we.
Hagrid doubts that Voldemort is coming back but also doesn't think that he is dead. Odd, that.
Harry does magic when hi is upset or angry.
"Seven years there and he won't know himself." Will we?
Hagrid was allowed to use magic to follow Harry and get his letters to him. Some of this magic looked pretty good to me.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Mar 7, 2006 4:18 pm (#93 of 105)
The McKinnonns, the Bones', and the Prewetts were killed by Voldemort.
Each of the families mentioned by Hagrid is connected to Dumbledore through the OotP.
Marlene McKinnon was the first member of the original Order to be killed by the Death Eaters
Edgar Bones was killed by Voldemort and the Death Eaters During the first war with Voldemort, his sister Amelia was killed in the opening stages of the second war with Voldemort.
The Prewetts (Fabian and Gideon) were murdered by five death eaters. Also, the Prewetts are the uncles of the Weasley's because, their sister Molly married Arthur Weasley.
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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 7, 2006 7:53 pm (#94 of 105)
Petunia and Dudley hide behind Vernon. Is Vernon actually being brave? --Steve Newton
I think so. Even big nasty jerks can display courage, and attempt to protect their family.
"Gallopin' gorgons" Gorgons are in Greek mythology. They are pretty nasty. Medusa was one. Alliteration is appearing.
Interesting. So are these fast moving snake-haired monsters? Hagrid also says "Gulpin' gargoyles". I'm a bit fuzzy on the original French legend, but the gargoyle was a dragon that lived in a river. I think some saint or other killed it. Not sure if this means anything. Later they became grotesque critters that adorn buildings. Don't building gargoyles serve some sort of symbolic purpose? I better go hit the encyclodedias....
Harry remembers more of the night at Godric's Hollow. Despite never asking this seems to be his quest throughout the books, discovering what happened the night his parents died. Ours, too.
You're right. Rowling has been very secretive about that night. There must be a few big revelations about that night in store for us.
Some other things:
Vernon says about Hagrid's sausages: "Don't touch anything he gives you, Dudley." Isn't there some myth that if you eat food in the fairy realm you get stuck there? Or am I mixing this up with Greek mythology? Certainly Persephone ate seven pomegranate seeds while in Hades, and through a brokered deal had to spend seven months in Hades but the other five months of the year above ground (because of her mother). Somehow I'm seeing the six sausages as Harry being brought partway into the wizarding world, but it is still necessary for him to live part time in the Muggle world.
Hagrid expected Harry to know about Hogwarts, and that his parents where magic. Hagrid's expectations seem to indicate that whatever means Dumbledore uses to keep an eye on Harry and the Dursleys, it doesn't include intimate knowledge of what goes on inside their house.
Hagrid says Voldemort "Disappeared", "Vanished". Sounds definitely like no body was found. "Most of us reckon he's still out there somewhere but lost his powers." People coming out of trances and Voldemort's organization collapsing were the signs of him being gone. How long did it take? Halloween night the Potters were murdered. The next morning the rumors about the Potters are making the rounds and the plan to recover Harry is already underway when Vernon notices the cat reading the map. Wizards and witches are celebrating all day November First. We still don't know who was spreading the tale about what had happened at Godric Hollow.
Why does Hagrid cast the spell on Dudley instead of Vernon?
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Steve Newton - Mar 7, 2006 8:17 pm (#95 of 105)
Why does Hagrid cast the spell on Dudley instead of Vernon?
Good question. Perhaps there is more to Vernon than we recognize.
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haymoni - Mar 8, 2006 6:52 am (#96 of 105)
I hope this isn't movie contamination, but the kid stole Harry's cake!!
He is a pig!
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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 8, 2006 7:11 am (#97 of 105)
Yup, movie contamination. Though he is a pig.
Maybe it's just because the book is so "eleven". I think kids who read the book want Dudley to get his comeuppance for the way he's treated Harry. The adults, Vernon and Petunia, have already lost the power struggle to Hagrid, so there is already some satisfaction there.
I remember reading once about some laws written on ancient stele, and one of them stated that if a man killed another man's daughter, then his daughter will be killed in retaliation. Yeah, not really fair to the daughter, but it showed a different idea of justice based on the family instead of the individual. The wizarding world does seem to be very family orientated. Maybe Hagrid just thinks like those ancient stele writers.
Edit: Almost forgot about the gargoyles.
A gargoyle is the spout on a gutter. The Greeks originated them to keep the rainwater from damaging buildings, and most often made them decorative lion's heads (the water spout being the lion's mouth).
The tale I was thinking of concerned a giant dragon called Garguoille (throat) in the Seine that was causing floods. Saint Romain used a convicted prisoner as a lure to get the dragon to come ashore, where it was slain. Apparently the dragon was so frightful that it's visage would scare away even evil spirits, and so the myth goes that statues of it were carved and put on buildings. To commemorate the death of the dragon, a tradition arose that once a year a convicted prisoner would be released.
Not sure if any of this is relevant.
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Choices - Mar 8, 2006 10:32 am (#98 of 105)
I think the reason Hagrid put the pig's tail on Dudley is that it would have more of an impact on Vernon to have his child suffer than himself. I'd much rather someone hurt me than hurt my child.
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Choices - Mar 8, 2006 7:49 pm (#99 of 105)
Chapter 4.....
I really don't have much to add to what has already been said. I am curious as to what Dumbledore did to earn his Order of Merlin, First Class.
How did Lily escape MOM notice when she did magic at home - turning teacups into rats?
Lily and James were head boy and head girl....in their day.
Hagrid states he was the one who took Harry from the ruined house. For some reason though, Hagrid does not believe Voldemort is still out there.
Great man, Dumbledore! I agree.
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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 9, 2006 6:57 am (#100 of 105)
How did Lily escape MOM notice when she did magic at home - turning teacups into rats?
I have this vague memory of Rowling answering that question in an interview or something, but I can't remember when or where. Anyway, it seems likely that the MoM can't detect every bit of magic that is done. From OotP I got the impression that the Dursley's house is monitered extra closely. It's also possible that they did detect Lily doing magic every once in a while, and a few notices flew her way. Harry had the problem of Dursley's hating him and the MoM out to get him, and the magic being done where other Muggles (like the Masons) might see it. Underage magic done in one's home in front of one's family probably happens quite a bit, and the MoM probably usually deals with it in a much more low-key manner than we saw with Harry.
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Amilia Smith - Mar 10, 2006 1:02 am (#101 of 105)
Yeah, you pretty much summed up Jo's answer, Mrs. Brisbee. But if you want the exact wording from the website:
In "Philosopher's Stone" Aunt Petunia says that Lily came back from Hogwarts with frog spawn in her pockets and turned teacups into rats. If this is true, why wasn't Lily expelled?
Aunt Petunia is exaggerating a little; you have to allow for her state of mind when she started shrieking these things. However, just like her son, Lily was not averse to testing the limits of the Statute of Secrecy, so you can safely assume she will have had a few warning letters – nothing too serious, though.
End quote.
Mills.
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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 10, 2006 7:17 am (#102 of 105)
Thank you, Mills. I thought it was on her website, but couldn't find it yesterday. I'm too easily distracted by bright shiny objects, and ended up hunting the Easter eggs instead
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Steve Newton - Mar 13, 2006 7:02 am (#103 of 105)
I have emailed Denise about starting a thread for the next 4 chapters. Bounced back. Should I start one or should we wait?
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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 13, 2006 7:15 am (#104 of 105)
I'll try Questions for the Hosts.
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Steve Newton - Mar 13, 2006 8:15 am (#105 of 105)
I just saw that you asked them. Now, as to the question of why I didn't think of that...
Thanks.
Last edited by Julia H. on Wed Jun 29, 2011 7:00 am; edited 2 times in total
Julia H.- Prefect
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Join date : 2011-02-18
Re: Harry Potter Book Read Along Thread - Philosopher's / Sorcerer's Stone
Julia H. Wed Jun 29, 2011 5:44 am
# Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's/Philosopher's Stone Ch 5-8
Kip Carter - Mar 13, 2006 8:33 am
This thread is to discuss chapters 5 through 8 of the first book, Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's/Philosopher's Stone.
Chapter Five: Diagon Alley
Chapter Six: The Journey from Platform Nine and Three-quarters
Chapter Seven: The Sorting Hat
Chapter Eight: The Potions Master
Kip Carter - Mar 13, 2006 8:33 am
This thread is to discuss chapters 5 through 8 of the first book, Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's/Philosopher's Stone.
Chapter Five: Diagon Alley
Chapter Six: The Journey from Platform Nine and Three-quarters
Chapter Seven: The Sorting Hat
Chapter Eight: The Potions Master
Julia H.- Prefect
- Posts : 6172
Join date : 2011-02-18
Re: Harry Potter Book Read Along Thread - Philosopher's / Sorcerer's Stone
Julia H. Wed Jun 29, 2011 5:47 am
Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's/Philosopher's Stone Book Read Along (Year 2006) (Chapters 5-8 or Posts 106-148 / 1-43 of the original thread)
Choices - Mar 13, 2006 11:34 am (#1 of 43)
Chapter 5......
Wizards have just one bank - Gringotts - run by goblins.
Hagrid lets us know that Dumbledore trusts him and lets him do important stuff for him.
Hagrid tells Harry he flew to the shack on the rock, but now that he has Harry he isn't supposed to do any more magic....but he does. LOL
Hagrid says they wanted Dumbledore to be Minister of Magic, but since Dumbledore would never leave Hogwarts, they gave the job to Fudge. Fudge seeks Dumbledore's advice frequently.
Hagrid wants a dragon.
Hagrid knits.
The Leaky Cauldron is a grubby looking pub and one of the old women inside is smoking a pipe. (We later see Professor Grubbly-Plank smoking a pipe - could it be her?)
Harry meets Professor Quirrell who is not wearing a turban yet and can shake Harry's hand. (Voldemort obviously hasn't come to live with him yet.)
Quirrell needs to pick up a new book on vampires - why? Hagrid said Quirrell has a brilliant mind, but isn't the same after taking a year off and encountering vampires in the Black Forest and having a run in with a hag.
Goblins wear uniforms of scarlet and gold (Gryffindor colors) and have very long fingers and feet.
Upon entering Gringotts, a sign cautions patrons not to try to steal from the bank. It is rumored dragons guard the high security vaults.
Harry meets Draco Malfoy at Madam Malkins - instant dislike.
There's not a single witch or wizard who went bad that wasn't in Slytherin - according to Hagrid.
Ollivander has been in business since 382 B.C. There's that single wand on a faded purple cushion in the dusty window. Is it important?
Ollivander has pale, silvery eyes.
Lily's wand was good for charms and James' wand was good for transfiguration.
Ollivander tells Harry he is sorry he sold the wand that gave Harry his scar.
Harry's wand shoots red and gold sparks. Ollivander tells him his wand and Voldemorts have a phoenix feather core and the feathers were from the same bird. The wand costs 7 galleons.
Harry takes the train back to the Dursleys - he has a month before he leaves for Hogwarts.
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Steve Newton - Mar 13, 2006 12:06 pm (#2 of 43)
I don't like Hagrid's explanation of why the Wizarding World must remain a secret from the muggles. I think that modern muggles now have more effective ways of dealing with wizards than fires.
On the train Hagrid knits what looks like a canary yellow circus tent. In HBP Dumbledore says that he enjoys knitting patterns. I take knitting to be a verb in this case. Dumbledore is making patterns of people and events. In HBP does Hermione attack Ron with canaries?
The note that pupils clothes should have name tags is a nice, homey, touch.
Muggles don't seem to be able to see the Leaky Cauldron.
Hagrid seems to be bragging about his chores for Dumbledore. He is definitely proud to be doing them.
People in the pub-Tom, Doris Crockford, Dedalus Diggle, Quirrell. Tom is one of the few repeated names.
Hagrid just happens to be picking up the stone on the same trip that he gets Harry and the same day Gringotts is broken into. mmmmmm
Draco reminds Harry of Dudley.
Draco doesn't introduce himself.
The apothecary smells like cabbage. So does Figgs' house.
Toads are out of fashion. Trevor.
A wand on a purple cushion is in Ollivander's window.
Harry's neck prickles in Ollivander's. Prickling necks appear a couple of times more and seem to indicate that there is powerful magic around.
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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 13, 2006 6:12 pm (#3 of 43)
I feel the need to confess that I never got the "Diagon Alley"-"diagonally" pun until I started visiting HP websites. Once it was pointed out to me I couldn't believe I'd missed such an obvious play on words!
When Harry wakes up, he at first thinks Hagrid coming to get him was a dream and he is back home in his cupboard. But his dream that someone would one day come for him has turned to reality.
The storm is over, and the sun is out.
The paper costs five knuts. Usually it's less, so must be extra for "rural delivery".
Hagrid has bunches of keys, slug pellets, balls of string, peppermint humbugs, teabags in his pockets (not to mention the birthday cake, kettle, sausages, quill, ink, and parchment, a live owl, letter from Dumbledore, and rumored dormice). I don't think Hagrid carrying around odd things in his pockets is mentioned in any of the other books.
What magic did Hagrid use to fly to the island?
In Diagon Alley, Harry wishes he had about eight more eyes so he can see everything new around him. Spiders have eight eyes.
The goblins are weighing out a "pile of rubies the size of burning coals". Rubies are Harry's birthstone, and the stone associated with Gryffindor.
I know this has been mentioned many times before, but the vault number that the Philosopher's Stone is kept in is 713, the reverse of Harry's birthday, 31/7 (The British put the day before the month).
Malfoy does remind Harry of Dudley. Draco on Muggleborns: ".... They're not the same, they've never been brought up to know our ways..." Xenophobia? He just doesn't like them because they are different. Draco also places Hufflepuffs at the bottom of the heap.
Hagrid seems a bit biased against Muggles, but not Muggleborns. He also says about Hufflepuff, "... Everyone says Hufflepuffs are a bunch of duffers..." Hufflepuff gets slammed from both sides, a Slytherin-to-be and a former Gryffindor, though Hagrid goes on to rank Slytherin lower.
Hagrid knows that Voldemort was Tom Riddle.
Ollivander mentions that Harry has Lily's eyes, but interestingly enough not that Harry looks like James.
James seems to have been more magically powerful than Lily. His wand had more power, and was "excellent" for Transfiguration. Lily's was "nice" for Charms.
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Steve Newton - Mar 13, 2006 6:17 pm (#4 of 43)
I think that 713 was also the room where Sirius was kept while waiting for the dementors. I think that it is described as being on the 7th floor and the 13 window.
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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 13, 2006 6:22 pm (#5 of 43)
I'd forgotten that.
The Prophecy also has "The One", "Thrice Defied" and "The Seventh Month".
I don't know what 731 in conjuntion mean. I'm not making out a pattern, except that they all have to do with people thwarting Voldemort's plans, more or less. Any ideas?
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Nathan Zimmermann - Mar 13, 2006 7:15 pm (#6 of 43)
1. Hagrid has a limited knowledge of the Muggle world because, he compares Quidditch to soccer.
2. There are seven types of cauldrons mentioned the chapter copper, brass, pewter, silver, self stirring, collapsible, and solid gold cauldrons.
3. In Ollivander's three wands are specifically mentioned before Harry finds the correct wand those were:
Beechwood and dragon heartstring nine inches;
Maple and phoenix feather seven inches;
Ebony and unicorn hair eight and half inches.
4. Harry's wand turned out to be Holly and phoenix feather eleven inches long. Interestingly James Potter's wand was also eleven inches in length.
5. Mr. Ollivander gives Hagrid piercing look when he questions Hagrid about using his wand is he a legilimens.
6. Mr. Ollivander does not blink and his eyes are variously described throughout the scene in his shop as being pale, silvery, and moon like.
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haymoni - Mar 13, 2006 7:26 pm (#7 of 43)
Mrs. Brisbee - I had the same problem with Knockturn Alley.
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zelmia - Mar 13, 2006 9:26 pm (#8 of 43)
Nathan, I believe that JKR explained that Hagrid's remark comparing Quidditch to Soccer/Football was more to do with each sport's popularity with fans, rather than how each was actually played. Just, FYI.
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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 14, 2006 1:10 pm (#9 of 43)
Thanks for making me feel better, Haymoni.
Harry meets Draco Malfoy at Madam Malkins - instant dislike. --Choices
I never noticed the similarity between the two names, Malfoy and Malkin, until now. Madam Malkin's is fitting place to start a bad relationship?
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Choices - Mar 14, 2006 6:50 pm (#10 of 43)
Good catch Mrs. Brisbee - I didn't notice the name similarity until you pointed it out.
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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 15, 2006 7:45 am (#11 of 43)
Lol, Choices, I thought you were pointing out the similarity between "Mal Foy" and "Mal Kin"!
I don't think the names are coincidence. The only other scene I can think of that takes place in Madam Malkin's is in HBP, and again we have Malfoys.
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Choices - Mar 15, 2006 10:04 am (#12 of 43)
No, I was just pointing out that Madam Malkin's is where Harry and Draco meet for the first time and there is instant dislike for Draco on Harry's part.
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Steve Newton - Mar 15, 2006 11:53 am (#13 of 43)
Chapter 6-The Journey From Platform Nine and Three Quarters
King's Cross-The cross would seem to indicate that the Muggle and Wizarding World's cross here. Also, perhaps, a suggestion of the theme which cannot be discussed. I'll put 'King's' on the back burner for now.
Harry makes an attempt at politeness when he says "Thank you," to Uncle Vernon. It doesn't seem to have any effect.
Dudley's tail is coming off on the same day that Harry goes to school. It seems that there might be something there but it escapes me.
I had never noted the cats on the platform before.
Neville is round faced. I think that is almost all of the description we ever get of him. I vaguely recall a reference in one of the later books to pudgy fingers.
Harry's first Weasley's-Molly, George, Fred.
"Oh, him." Harry the person is different from Harry the celebrity.
The twins recognize Harry.
"Geroff" similar to Grawp? A bit of a stretch.
"The poor boy isn't something you goggle at in a zoo." Molly. Another zoo reference.
Harry's politeness is noted.
The twins mention the tarantula to Ron. Its not until the next book that we get the joke.
Ron has Bill's robes, Charlie's wand, and Percy's rat.
Harry want Mars bars. Mars is the God of war in Roman or Greek mythology.
Wizard cards Harry gets-Dumbledore, Morgana, Hengist of Woodcroft, Alberig Grunnion, Circe, Paracelsus, Merlin, Cliodna. Aren't both Merlin and Morgana Arthurian references? (I assume this isn't the Morgana who used to run out onto baseball fields and kiss players.)
The first mention of tripe.
Trevor is lost on the train.
Nobody seems to want to be in Hufflepuff.
Draco's offer of friendship might have been better received in Madam Malkin's.
Scabbers bites Goyle. Or is it that he doesn't bite Crabbe?
Harry, Ron, Hermione, and Neville share the boat to Hogwarts.
Hagrid finds Trevor in a boat.
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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 15, 2006 8:25 pm (#14 of 43)
Harry's first Weasley's-Molly, George, Fred. --Steve Newton
They are a wonderful contrast to the Dursleys. Molly is kind to Harry, and compassionate when she learns who he is. George offers to help him with his trunk. Ron sitting with Harry and the two becoming friends is my most favorite part of this book.
"Oh, him." Harry the person is different from Harry the celebrity.
Harry refers to the other Harry in the third person. I wonder how he would have viewed himself had he actually grown up in the Wizarding World and learned at an early age that he is The Boy Who Lived?
Harry want Mars bars. Mars is the God of war in Roman or Greek mythology.
Hmm. Harry wants them, but can't get them.
Wizard cards Harry gets-Dumbledore, Morgana, Hengist of Woodcroft, Alberig Grunnion, Circe, Paracelsus, Merlin, Cliodna. Aren't both Merlin and Morgana Arthurian references? (I assume this isn't the Morgana who used to run out onto baseball fields and kiss players.)
I only recognize a few of those. Circe is amusing, since she is noted for turning men into pigs and Harry is off to Hogwarts. Other than Merlin and Morgana, I don't know the rest (Ooh, and I don't think the mums would like their boys collecting pictures of that Morgana).
Nobody seems to want to be in Hufflepuff.
Here they don't even warrant a mention. Sort of the place you go that isn't as bad as Slytherin.
Why is the station platform nine and three-quarters, and not nine and a half? Just sounds cooler?
On the platform side there is a wrought-iron archway where the barrier would be. Another arch.
I'm glad Rowling said Ron had a "black mark" on his nose, and not a "dark mark".
What use are toads, anyway? I know they are great for gardens because they eat slugs, but do they have any mythological powers?
Ron on Scabbers: "He might have died and you wouldn't know the difference."
Hermione knows Neville's name. She takes an interest in helping Neville, even if she is bossy.
Hermione reports that Hogwarts is the very best school for witchcraft. Are there others in the U.K.?
We learn that Dumbledore was in Gryffindor. Is this to help explain his later bias? It's not really a piece of information we need.
Ron: "...everyone gets scared when something like this happens in case You-Know-Who is behind it." Lingering doubt in the Wizarding World that Voldemort is truly gone.
Another journey acrossed the water. The return trip for this one won't be until the end of the book.
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freshwater - Mar 19, 2006 8:01 pm (#15 of 43)
I've enjoyed reading through this thread and will join in re-reading HP&SS as soon as possible. I particularly liked the comments on vault 713/ Harry's b-day: 31/7 / Sirius' holding room @ Hogwarts being on the 7th floor the 13th window / and the prophecy mentioning the "one", born to those who "thrice" defied LV and born in the "7th" month.
Then I glanced at the post about Harry's wand: holly w/phoenix feather.....phoenix has 7 letters and holly has 3 different letters and 1 double letter. Or, is this too, too much of a stretch? **grin**
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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 20, 2006 6:55 am (#16 of 43)
I think everyone must be off watching their new GoF DVD :Smile:
Hmm. Seven letters in "phoenix". I'm inclined to think that... um... maybe, you might be onto something, Freshwater. Since the seven association appears to be put in the books on purpose by Rowling, I think it likely she saw the number of letters in "phoenix" as a fortuitous coincidence. Another seven for both Harry and Voldemort. "Holly" as three is a bit of a stretch, though "yew" does have three letters.
Hmm...
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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 21, 2006 7:01 am (#17 of 43)
Chapter 7, "The Sorting Hat"
McGonagall looks like someone you don't want to cross. She says: "Your House will be something like your family within Hogwarts". We learn later in the book that Harry's greatest desire is to have a family. First Harry met Hagrid. Harry had dreamed when he was younger that some long-lost relative would show up at the Dursleys and take him away. And Hagrid did come for him, but Hagrid is not a blood relative. Then Harry met Mrs. Weasley on the train platform. He sees a good mother in action, one who is also kind and compassionate to him. Now he meets McGonagall, who is the Head of the House he will be sorted into. She is strict like the Dursleys, but unlike them her rules are not arbitrary, and unlike the Dursleys she deserves to be respected. Harry is finding family that is not related to him by blood.
The Sorting Hat: Gryffindors are brave at heart, daring, nerve, chivalrous.
Hufflepuff: just, loyal, true, hard working.
Ravenclaw: ready mind, wit, learning.
Slytherin: cunning, any means to achieve ends.
The Hat sometimes places the person immediately, but sometimes has to think where to put them for a few moments. Both Ron and Malfoy are immediately placed in their respective Houses. Both knew before they got there exactly which house they wanted to be in.
The Sorting Hat declares Harry to be "very difficult" to place. Harry chooses "Not Slytherin", and the Hat decides to put him in Gryffindor.
Quirrell now has his turban.
The Slytherins have won the House Cup for the past six years. Does anyone except Slytherin or Gryffindor ever win the House Cup or Quidditch Cup?
Snape looks at Harry and Harry's scar burns (we learn later it was actually Quirrellmort's fault). But Harry also gets the feeling from the look that Snape doesn't like him. The look bothers Harry more than the scar pain.
Dumbledore tells everyone to stay away from the third floor corridor. The announcement makes the location of whatever is being hidden very public.
Harry has a dream that seems like true oneiromancy. Or just the author foreshadowing....
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Steve Newton - Mar 21, 2006 7:29 am (#18 of 43)
I wondered abut the not crossing McGonagall.
And, as far as I can tell, Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw need not even try to win the cups.
Sorry to be so late but this past weekend was my baseball draft and it took most of my time. May I'll have more after lunch.
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Choices - Mar 21, 2006 10:48 am (#19 of 43)
Chapter 7 ---
I really don't have anything much to add except a comment on Harry's dream at the very end of this chapter. I'm not sure about the first part of the dream, but the part that starts with Draco laughing at Harry, then Draco turning into Snape and then Harry sees a burst of green light - I think this definitely foreshadows the end of book 6. Draco standing before Dumbledore, then Snape takes his place, then Snape AK's (burst of green light) Dumbledore - Harry awakens, sweating and shaking.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Mar 21, 2006 2:14 pm (#20 of 43)
I believe the comments about not crossing McGonagall is also foreshadowing. I think they foreshadow McGonagall's efforts to defend Hagrid in OotP and Hogwarts in HBP.
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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 22, 2006 6:52 am (#21 of 43)
Choices, I agree that the dream foreshadows HBP. Dream Snape also has a high, cold laugh like Voldemort.
I'm wondering about the qualities of each House, and what exactly they mean.
Gryffindor is brave at heart. That's definitely a good thing to be. Daring and nerve are more neutral, because you can be daring enough to try a stupid stunt, or have enough nerve to do something truly evil. The chivalry thing is what stumps me. What does the Sorting Hat mean? That Gryffindors are courtious? That they ascribe to the Knightly Virtues? That they feel compelled to smite evil wherever it might be found? There's a whole range of connotations for chivalry. This is one of the things that sets up the assumption that Gryffindor=Good.
Hufflepuffs get a nice list of virtues, sort of at odds with the disdain with which the Hufflepuffs are generally regarded. They are just-- that's a very good thing to be. Loyal-- again, loyalty is highly regarded. True-- again, great stuff. Hard working-- who wants to be known as lazy? I wonder how they ever got their reputation for being "duffers"?
Ravenclaws are smart. Intelligence can be morally neutral, but it does trump ignorance every time.
Slytherins are cunning. Nothing wrong with that, although it does imply that they use their shrewdness for deception. Slytherins also use any means to achieve their ends, which is morally bankrupt. That is definitely an attribute that can easily lead to evil: the end justifies the means-- and out the window go morals and ethics.
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Steve Newton - Mar 22, 2006 11:57 am (#22 of 43)
I'm finally getting caught up.
Chapter 7-The Sorting Hat
There are hundreds of voices in the Great Hall. Since we are told of only 20 ghosts, a games keeper, a caretaker, and less than ten teachers it sounds as if there are hundreds of students.
Each house has it own "noble" history. The second McGonagall reference to noble.
Did Harry turn a teacher's wig blue?
There are about 20 ghosts. I think that we have only met 5.
"Glittering golden plates and goblets." Alliteration all about.
"But, don't judge on what you see." The Sorting Hat
Is there a real color that is lavender Brown?
Seamus takes a minute to be sorted. Neville and Harry also seem to take a long time. Harry and Neville being connected makes sense to me but not Seamus.
"It's all here in your head, and Slytherin will help you on the way to greatness." The Sorting Hat. Is this a hint of a horcrux? Is that Hat a seer?
"Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak!" Is there any meaning there? 4 Houses. 4 remaining horcruxes.
The Bloody has a 'gaunt' face.
Great Uncle Algie bought Trevor.
Percy seems to get on well with the first years. Freely shares what seems to be good information. He could be showing off, I guess.
It seems that the twins have been active in the Forest.
I think that someday everyone will sing the school song in the same tune. Harmony, don't ya know.
"Bring back what we've forgot." From the school song.
The twins sing the song to a funeral march.
"Music...a magic beyond all we do here.' Dumbledore
Harry's legs are twice described as lead.
I really want to know who the Fat Lady was/is.
Is Neville short? He needs a leg up to get in the common room.
I have problems with most of the dreams. I think that folks are right to connect this one with the HBP scene.
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TheSaint - Mar 22, 2006 12:43 pm (#23 of 43)
"Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak!"
Almost like saying, "oh how stupid, but can't cry now, kind of strange but we will adjust."
Yes..he is described as lead alright.
'I think that someday everyone will sing the school song in the same tune. Harmony, don't ya know. ' Love that!
I also find the words to the school song most interesting. I wonder what they forgot?
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Aimee Shawn - Mar 22, 2006 12:48 pm (#24 of 43)
I thought it really funny the kids thought the sorting involved a test of some kind. I'm sure Ron's brothers had horror stories to tell him about sorting. None of the others - that Harry heard - seemed to know how it worked either. Must be a "rite of passage" thing.
I found it very curious that Neville's family thought he was "all muggle". I had remembered he didn't do magic until he was older but I just didn't remember it phrased that way. I thought Neville's family was all wizards. I wonder why it was said that way. Is his mother muggle?
Dreams: Wow, Harry's dream is a good synopsis of the tower scene in HBP! I want to go through all the books again and just pull out Harry's dreams to see how much he foreshadows. Does he have Seer relatives, I wonder? Is this common to wizards and just taken for granted or unique to Harry?
Sorry, all questions. No insights or statements. You all are amazing with your ability to disect the text. I stand in awe.
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Steve Newton - Mar 22, 2006 2:34 pm (#25 of 43)
I just noted a missing word in my chapter 7 summary.
The Bloody Baron has a 'gaunt' face.
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TheSaint - Mar 22, 2006 8:37 pm (#26 of 43)
Oh...nice one Steve!
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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 23, 2006 6:51 am (#27 of 43)
"It's all here in your head, and Slytherin will help you on the way to greatness." The Sorting Hat. Is this a hint of a horcrux? Is that Hat a seer?
I wonder what the Hat sees? It-- like Ollivander did-- is implying that Harry will be great. Certainly Harry has enough Slytheriny traits all on his own to merit admission to Slytherin House, but it is odd what the Hat said.
"Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak!"
Almost like saying, "oh how stupid, but can't cry now, kind of strange but we will adjust."
I have a really vague memory of someone once, several years ago, somewhere, explaining what that meant. This memory is really vague, so vague it is nearly obscured by the fog of time. Someone had put forth that it meant something like "Hey, Stupid, if you're hungry just take some food!" They had provided etymologies for the words, but all I remember is that "Oddment" was supposed to be a bit of food, and "Tweak" was to take it. I don't have the dictionary resources to confirm this though. If true, "Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak!" does make a good before-the-feast speech.
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Steve Newton - Mar 23, 2006 6:53 am (#28 of 43)
I also remember reading some speculation about the four words. I can't remember where. Maybe I should check the Galadriel Waters book.
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Steve Newton - Mar 23, 2006 8:27 am (#29 of 43)
Way up top in post 14 Mrs. Brisbee writes "Why is the station platform nine and three-quarters, and not nine and a half? Just sounds cooler?"
What a good question which I am only now thinking about. If there are 3/4 than it is 1/4 away from the whole. Like 3 houses missing the 4th, perhaps.
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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 23, 2006 8:36 am (#30 of 43)
Ah, a missing quarter! Good explanation, Steve.
I actually came back on to note some good observations of yours:
I think that someday everyone will sing the school song in the same tune. Harmony, don't ya know.
"Bring back what we've forgot." From the school song.
The twins sing the song to a funeral march.
"Music...a magic beyond all we do here.' Dumbledore
The disharmony ties in with the missing quarter thing too. I guess it is really being emphasized that the disharmony in the school is leading to trouble.
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Steve Newton - Mar 23, 2006 12:18 pm (#31 of 43)
Chapter 8-The Potions Master
Harry is a celebrity.
There are 142 staircases in Hogwarts. I can't think of even a hint of a reason why this would be important. There is mention of a stair with a vanishing step which would seem to be the one of some importance in GOF.
Harry and Ron just happen to find the door to the 3rd floor corridor. What a coincidence, Quirrel is there.
Professor Sprout is dumpy.
I, along with Harry and Ron, get the names from Binns' classes confused and forgotten. I bet that I will regret that someday.
Flitwick is tiny.
Again, don't cross McGonagall.
Another pig.
Snape's eyes "made you think of dark tunnels."
I think that all of the things that Snape mentions come back in later books. (I don't want to start a stopper death discussion. It is going on elsewhere.)
The Draft of Living Death is a sleeping potion.
Neville destroys his first cauldron. (Seamus')
Harry loses 2 points. This seems trivial by later standards.
Hagrid also mentions the twins in connection with the forest.
Hagrid doesn't seem to like Filch.
What are rock cakes? I actually decided to look this one up. Briefly they are chunky hard fruity buns.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Mar 23, 2006 12:30 pm (#32 of 43)
Steve, I think the number 142 is another veiled reference to the number seven because when the three numbers are added together the sum equals seven.
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Choices - Mar 23, 2006 12:39 pm (#33 of 43)
One last comment on the line, "Slytherin will help you on the way to greatness...." Perhaps it means literally Slytherin or the heir of Slytherin, not Slytherin the house. It could be the defeat of Slytherin's heir that will lead to Harry's greatness in the Wizarding World.
And now to Chapter 8.....
It's interesting that Filch knows the secret passageways of the school almost as well as Fred and George.
Professor Binns is the only ghost teacher at Hogwarts.
McGonagall says that Transfiguration is some of the most complex and dangerous magic taught at Hogwarts.
Quirrell's DADA lessons are a bit of a joke.
The fact that Quirrell went PINK when Seamus asked him about fighting a zombie indicates Quirrell is hiding a secret.....boy, is he!!!!
Harry was wrong about Snape disliking him......Snape HATES him!!!
First mention of Draught of Living Death and Bezoars.
Snape criticizes everyone, but seems to like Malfoy. Why???? Would love to know the backstory here.
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Steve Newton - Mar 23, 2006 12:49 pm (#34 of 43)
Choices, I also wondered if mention of Slytherin meant other than his house. Maybe his heir, he's still alive, he made a horcrux and doesn't want Voldemort horning in, or time travel of some sort. Maybe I'm raving.
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Choices - Mar 23, 2006 1:13 pm (#35 of 43)
Steve - Voldemort (Tom Riddle) is the heir of Slytherin. I think maybe learning about him and how to defeat him will make Harry great in the eyes of the Wizarding World. But, the time travel thing is interesting - maybe Harry could go back in time and get some first hand knowledge from Salazar Slytherin - or perhaps he will find a notebook or something that Slytherin left at Hogwarts (COS?) and that will give him ideas about destroying the Horcruxes and ultimately, Voldemort.
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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 23, 2006 7:02 pm (#36 of 43)
Time Travel??? AAAAIIIIIEEEEEE!!!! ***runs about screaming in circles***
Okay, now that I've gotten that out of my system ....
What are rock cakes? I actually decided to look this one up. Briefly they are chunky hard fruity buns. --Steve Newton
Oh, good. I was ready to look them up. They certainly don't sound very appetizing!
Harry was wrong about Snape disliking him......Snape HATES him!!! --Choices
Ah, yes, welcome to baggage claim. Snape reminds me a lot of Aunt Petunia. Petunia resents Lily, and Harry pays the price. Snape hates James, and Harry pays the price (I almost put resents and hates in the past tense, but the emotions are very much alive despite Lily and James both being dead). Ongoing theme is that your family shapes how others treat you, whether you like it or not. It's one of those things you have to learn to deal with. We see the family thing with the way Harry is treated, when Hagrid gives Dudley a pig's tail to get even with Vernon, in CoS when Lucius Malfoy picks Ginny to give the diary because he wants to discredit Arthur, in HBP with Slughorn picking kids for his club based on family connections, and Voldemort picking Draco for a near impossible task to punish Lucius. Voldemort was even so uptight about his family he went and changed his name!
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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 24, 2006 7:02 am (#37 of 43)
A few additional notes on chapter 8:
There is a funny smell coming from Quirrell's turban. Quirrell needs the turban to hide the Voldy face on the back of his head. So why is Voldy so smelly? Is the unicorn blood responsible for the face, or is it too early for that? Is it a side-effect of long term possession, or is this different than regular possession?
Hedwig seems fond of Harry. She comes to the Great Hall even when she has no mail.
Snape: "If you aren't as big a bunch of dunderheads as I usually have to teach." Charming guy. Anyway, "dunderhead" is most likely from thunder+head. Snape proceeds to pick on the kid with the lightning bolt scar on his forehead.
Hagrid's crossbow is outside his door, by his boots.
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haymoni - Mar 24, 2006 7:54 am (#38 of 43)
Voldy can't hold a toothbrush, so maybe it's a breath problem.
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Steve Newton - Mar 24, 2006 8:21 am (#39 of 43)
Hagrid's crossbow shows up several times. I haven't followed them so don't have any revelations. I have been trying to keep track of 'cross' references but nothing yet.
Dunderhead and lightning bolt does seem like a connection. I have also wondered about the later Firebolt.
haymoni, I'm uncertain about your suggestion. The twins comments make it sound like it smells of garlic but it isn't actually stated that that is the smell.
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haymoni - Mar 24, 2006 9:04 am (#40 of 43)
The Twins throught that the turban was stuffed with garlic to keep vampires away, but you are right - we don't know what the smell actually was.
I am picturing Quirrell trying to brush Voldy's teeth with the toothbrush held behind his head.
"That was my nose, you idiot!!!"
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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 24, 2006 3:32 pm (#41 of 43)
LOL, Haymoni!
I'm interested in Hagrid's crossbow because he breaks it in HBP. I didn't remember it being mentioned so early in PS/SS. No idea what it means either.
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Steve Newton - Mar 25, 2006 6:20 pm (#42 of 43)
I checked my Galadriel Waters books and have found no mention of Nitwit! Blubber! etc. I only did a quick look and could have missed them but there is definitely not an essay there. I know I've seen one someplace.
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freshwater - Mar 26, 2006 6:07 pm (#43 of 43)
Mentioning Hagrid's crossbow shows him as both hunter and defender.
"Bring back what we've forgotten." from the Sorting Hat song...I wonder if it could be a deep understanding of wizarding history? JKR is constantly mentioning that everyone finds History of Magic magnificently boring, usually falling asleep or doing other work during that class...except for Hermione, of course. Reminds me of that old saying, "Those who forget (ignore?) history are doomed to repeat it." Now that goblins and giants --and possibly even those powerful house elves-- may become allies of LV (and who knows what those arrogant, resentful centaurs may do?) it is particularly important to know how they came to feel so un-allied to wizards, how past events contributed to that process and what can be done to reconcile the various groups for everyone's benefit.
THANK YOU for the insights into Harry's dream....I KNEW it had to be important...otherwise, why include it at all?....but had no clue as to why/how.
Choices - Mar 13, 2006 11:34 am (#1 of 43)
Chapter 5......
Wizards have just one bank - Gringotts - run by goblins.
Hagrid lets us know that Dumbledore trusts him and lets him do important stuff for him.
Hagrid tells Harry he flew to the shack on the rock, but now that he has Harry he isn't supposed to do any more magic....but he does. LOL
Hagrid says they wanted Dumbledore to be Minister of Magic, but since Dumbledore would never leave Hogwarts, they gave the job to Fudge. Fudge seeks Dumbledore's advice frequently.
Hagrid wants a dragon.
Hagrid knits.
The Leaky Cauldron is a grubby looking pub and one of the old women inside is smoking a pipe. (We later see Professor Grubbly-Plank smoking a pipe - could it be her?)
Harry meets Professor Quirrell who is not wearing a turban yet and can shake Harry's hand. (Voldemort obviously hasn't come to live with him yet.)
Quirrell needs to pick up a new book on vampires - why? Hagrid said Quirrell has a brilliant mind, but isn't the same after taking a year off and encountering vampires in the Black Forest and having a run in with a hag.
Goblins wear uniforms of scarlet and gold (Gryffindor colors) and have very long fingers and feet.
Upon entering Gringotts, a sign cautions patrons not to try to steal from the bank. It is rumored dragons guard the high security vaults.
Harry meets Draco Malfoy at Madam Malkins - instant dislike.
There's not a single witch or wizard who went bad that wasn't in Slytherin - according to Hagrid.
Ollivander has been in business since 382 B.C. There's that single wand on a faded purple cushion in the dusty window. Is it important?
Ollivander has pale, silvery eyes.
Lily's wand was good for charms and James' wand was good for transfiguration.
Ollivander tells Harry he is sorry he sold the wand that gave Harry his scar.
Harry's wand shoots red and gold sparks. Ollivander tells him his wand and Voldemorts have a phoenix feather core and the feathers were from the same bird. The wand costs 7 galleons.
Harry takes the train back to the Dursleys - he has a month before he leaves for Hogwarts.
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Steve Newton - Mar 13, 2006 12:06 pm (#2 of 43)
I don't like Hagrid's explanation of why the Wizarding World must remain a secret from the muggles. I think that modern muggles now have more effective ways of dealing with wizards than fires.
On the train Hagrid knits what looks like a canary yellow circus tent. In HBP Dumbledore says that he enjoys knitting patterns. I take knitting to be a verb in this case. Dumbledore is making patterns of people and events. In HBP does Hermione attack Ron with canaries?
The note that pupils clothes should have name tags is a nice, homey, touch.
Muggles don't seem to be able to see the Leaky Cauldron.
Hagrid seems to be bragging about his chores for Dumbledore. He is definitely proud to be doing them.
People in the pub-Tom, Doris Crockford, Dedalus Diggle, Quirrell. Tom is one of the few repeated names.
Hagrid just happens to be picking up the stone on the same trip that he gets Harry and the same day Gringotts is broken into. mmmmmm
Draco reminds Harry of Dudley.
Draco doesn't introduce himself.
The apothecary smells like cabbage. So does Figgs' house.
Toads are out of fashion. Trevor.
A wand on a purple cushion is in Ollivander's window.
Harry's neck prickles in Ollivander's. Prickling necks appear a couple of times more and seem to indicate that there is powerful magic around.
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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 13, 2006 6:12 pm (#3 of 43)
I feel the need to confess that I never got the "Diagon Alley"-"diagonally" pun until I started visiting HP websites. Once it was pointed out to me I couldn't believe I'd missed such an obvious play on words!
When Harry wakes up, he at first thinks Hagrid coming to get him was a dream and he is back home in his cupboard. But his dream that someone would one day come for him has turned to reality.
The storm is over, and the sun is out.
The paper costs five knuts. Usually it's less, so must be extra for "rural delivery".
Hagrid has bunches of keys, slug pellets, balls of string, peppermint humbugs, teabags in his pockets (not to mention the birthday cake, kettle, sausages, quill, ink, and parchment, a live owl, letter from Dumbledore, and rumored dormice). I don't think Hagrid carrying around odd things in his pockets is mentioned in any of the other books.
What magic did Hagrid use to fly to the island?
In Diagon Alley, Harry wishes he had about eight more eyes so he can see everything new around him. Spiders have eight eyes.
The goblins are weighing out a "pile of rubies the size of burning coals". Rubies are Harry's birthstone, and the stone associated with Gryffindor.
I know this has been mentioned many times before, but the vault number that the Philosopher's Stone is kept in is 713, the reverse of Harry's birthday, 31/7 (The British put the day before the month).
Malfoy does remind Harry of Dudley. Draco on Muggleborns: ".... They're not the same, they've never been brought up to know our ways..." Xenophobia? He just doesn't like them because they are different. Draco also places Hufflepuffs at the bottom of the heap.
Hagrid seems a bit biased against Muggles, but not Muggleborns. He also says about Hufflepuff, "... Everyone says Hufflepuffs are a bunch of duffers..." Hufflepuff gets slammed from both sides, a Slytherin-to-be and a former Gryffindor, though Hagrid goes on to rank Slytherin lower.
Hagrid knows that Voldemort was Tom Riddle.
Ollivander mentions that Harry has Lily's eyes, but interestingly enough not that Harry looks like James.
James seems to have been more magically powerful than Lily. His wand had more power, and was "excellent" for Transfiguration. Lily's was "nice" for Charms.
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Steve Newton - Mar 13, 2006 6:17 pm (#4 of 43)
I think that 713 was also the room where Sirius was kept while waiting for the dementors. I think that it is described as being on the 7th floor and the 13 window.
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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 13, 2006 6:22 pm (#5 of 43)
I'd forgotten that.
The Prophecy also has "The One", "Thrice Defied" and "The Seventh Month".
I don't know what 731 in conjuntion mean. I'm not making out a pattern, except that they all have to do with people thwarting Voldemort's plans, more or less. Any ideas?
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Nathan Zimmermann - Mar 13, 2006 7:15 pm (#6 of 43)
1. Hagrid has a limited knowledge of the Muggle world because, he compares Quidditch to soccer.
2. There are seven types of cauldrons mentioned the chapter copper, brass, pewter, silver, self stirring, collapsible, and solid gold cauldrons.
3. In Ollivander's three wands are specifically mentioned before Harry finds the correct wand those were:
Beechwood and dragon heartstring nine inches;
Maple and phoenix feather seven inches;
Ebony and unicorn hair eight and half inches.
4. Harry's wand turned out to be Holly and phoenix feather eleven inches long. Interestingly James Potter's wand was also eleven inches in length.
5. Mr. Ollivander gives Hagrid piercing look when he questions Hagrid about using his wand is he a legilimens.
6. Mr. Ollivander does not blink and his eyes are variously described throughout the scene in his shop as being pale, silvery, and moon like.
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haymoni - Mar 13, 2006 7:26 pm (#7 of 43)
Mrs. Brisbee - I had the same problem with Knockturn Alley.
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zelmia - Mar 13, 2006 9:26 pm (#8 of 43)
Nathan, I believe that JKR explained that Hagrid's remark comparing Quidditch to Soccer/Football was more to do with each sport's popularity with fans, rather than how each was actually played. Just, FYI.
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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 14, 2006 1:10 pm (#9 of 43)
Thanks for making me feel better, Haymoni.
Harry meets Draco Malfoy at Madam Malkins - instant dislike. --Choices
I never noticed the similarity between the two names, Malfoy and Malkin, until now. Madam Malkin's is fitting place to start a bad relationship?
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Choices - Mar 14, 2006 6:50 pm (#10 of 43)
Good catch Mrs. Brisbee - I didn't notice the name similarity until you pointed it out.
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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 15, 2006 7:45 am (#11 of 43)
Lol, Choices, I thought you were pointing out the similarity between "Mal Foy" and "Mal Kin"!
I don't think the names are coincidence. The only other scene I can think of that takes place in Madam Malkin's is in HBP, and again we have Malfoys.
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Choices - Mar 15, 2006 10:04 am (#12 of 43)
No, I was just pointing out that Madam Malkin's is where Harry and Draco meet for the first time and there is instant dislike for Draco on Harry's part.
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Steve Newton - Mar 15, 2006 11:53 am (#13 of 43)
Chapter 6-The Journey From Platform Nine and Three Quarters
King's Cross-The cross would seem to indicate that the Muggle and Wizarding World's cross here. Also, perhaps, a suggestion of the theme which cannot be discussed. I'll put 'King's' on the back burner for now.
Harry makes an attempt at politeness when he says "Thank you," to Uncle Vernon. It doesn't seem to have any effect.
Dudley's tail is coming off on the same day that Harry goes to school. It seems that there might be something there but it escapes me.
I had never noted the cats on the platform before.
Neville is round faced. I think that is almost all of the description we ever get of him. I vaguely recall a reference in one of the later books to pudgy fingers.
Harry's first Weasley's-Molly, George, Fred.
"Oh, him." Harry the person is different from Harry the celebrity.
The twins recognize Harry.
"Geroff" similar to Grawp? A bit of a stretch.
"The poor boy isn't something you goggle at in a zoo." Molly. Another zoo reference.
Harry's politeness is noted.
The twins mention the tarantula to Ron. Its not until the next book that we get the joke.
Ron has Bill's robes, Charlie's wand, and Percy's rat.
Harry want Mars bars. Mars is the God of war in Roman or Greek mythology.
Wizard cards Harry gets-Dumbledore, Morgana, Hengist of Woodcroft, Alberig Grunnion, Circe, Paracelsus, Merlin, Cliodna. Aren't both Merlin and Morgana Arthurian references? (I assume this isn't the Morgana who used to run out onto baseball fields and kiss players.)
The first mention of tripe.
Trevor is lost on the train.
Nobody seems to want to be in Hufflepuff.
Draco's offer of friendship might have been better received in Madam Malkin's.
Scabbers bites Goyle. Or is it that he doesn't bite Crabbe?
Harry, Ron, Hermione, and Neville share the boat to Hogwarts.
Hagrid finds Trevor in a boat.
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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 15, 2006 8:25 pm (#14 of 43)
Harry's first Weasley's-Molly, George, Fred. --Steve Newton
They are a wonderful contrast to the Dursleys. Molly is kind to Harry, and compassionate when she learns who he is. George offers to help him with his trunk. Ron sitting with Harry and the two becoming friends is my most favorite part of this book.
"Oh, him." Harry the person is different from Harry the celebrity.
Harry refers to the other Harry in the third person. I wonder how he would have viewed himself had he actually grown up in the Wizarding World and learned at an early age that he is The Boy Who Lived?
Harry want Mars bars. Mars is the God of war in Roman or Greek mythology.
Hmm. Harry wants them, but can't get them.
Wizard cards Harry gets-Dumbledore, Morgana, Hengist of Woodcroft, Alberig Grunnion, Circe, Paracelsus, Merlin, Cliodna. Aren't both Merlin and Morgana Arthurian references? (I assume this isn't the Morgana who used to run out onto baseball fields and kiss players.)
I only recognize a few of those. Circe is amusing, since she is noted for turning men into pigs and Harry is off to Hogwarts. Other than Merlin and Morgana, I don't know the rest (Ooh, and I don't think the mums would like their boys collecting pictures of that Morgana).
Nobody seems to want to be in Hufflepuff.
Here they don't even warrant a mention. Sort of the place you go that isn't as bad as Slytherin.
Why is the station platform nine and three-quarters, and not nine and a half? Just sounds cooler?
On the platform side there is a wrought-iron archway where the barrier would be. Another arch.
I'm glad Rowling said Ron had a "black mark" on his nose, and not a "dark mark".
What use are toads, anyway? I know they are great for gardens because they eat slugs, but do they have any mythological powers?
Ron on Scabbers: "He might have died and you wouldn't know the difference."
Hermione knows Neville's name. She takes an interest in helping Neville, even if she is bossy.
Hermione reports that Hogwarts is the very best school for witchcraft. Are there others in the U.K.?
We learn that Dumbledore was in Gryffindor. Is this to help explain his later bias? It's not really a piece of information we need.
Ron: "...everyone gets scared when something like this happens in case You-Know-Who is behind it." Lingering doubt in the Wizarding World that Voldemort is truly gone.
Another journey acrossed the water. The return trip for this one won't be until the end of the book.
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freshwater - Mar 19, 2006 8:01 pm (#15 of 43)
I've enjoyed reading through this thread and will join in re-reading HP&SS as soon as possible. I particularly liked the comments on vault 713/ Harry's b-day: 31/7 / Sirius' holding room @ Hogwarts being on the 7th floor the 13th window / and the prophecy mentioning the "one", born to those who "thrice" defied LV and born in the "7th" month.
Then I glanced at the post about Harry's wand: holly w/phoenix feather.....phoenix has 7 letters and holly has 3 different letters and 1 double letter. Or, is this too, too much of a stretch? **grin**
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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 20, 2006 6:55 am (#16 of 43)
I think everyone must be off watching their new GoF DVD :Smile:
Hmm. Seven letters in "phoenix". I'm inclined to think that... um... maybe, you might be onto something, Freshwater. Since the seven association appears to be put in the books on purpose by Rowling, I think it likely she saw the number of letters in "phoenix" as a fortuitous coincidence. Another seven for both Harry and Voldemort. "Holly" as three is a bit of a stretch, though "yew" does have three letters.
Hmm...
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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 21, 2006 7:01 am (#17 of 43)
Chapter 7, "The Sorting Hat"
McGonagall looks like someone you don't want to cross. She says: "Your House will be something like your family within Hogwarts". We learn later in the book that Harry's greatest desire is to have a family. First Harry met Hagrid. Harry had dreamed when he was younger that some long-lost relative would show up at the Dursleys and take him away. And Hagrid did come for him, but Hagrid is not a blood relative. Then Harry met Mrs. Weasley on the train platform. He sees a good mother in action, one who is also kind and compassionate to him. Now he meets McGonagall, who is the Head of the House he will be sorted into. She is strict like the Dursleys, but unlike them her rules are not arbitrary, and unlike the Dursleys she deserves to be respected. Harry is finding family that is not related to him by blood.
The Sorting Hat: Gryffindors are brave at heart, daring, nerve, chivalrous.
Hufflepuff: just, loyal, true, hard working.
Ravenclaw: ready mind, wit, learning.
Slytherin: cunning, any means to achieve ends.
The Hat sometimes places the person immediately, but sometimes has to think where to put them for a few moments. Both Ron and Malfoy are immediately placed in their respective Houses. Both knew before they got there exactly which house they wanted to be in.
The Sorting Hat declares Harry to be "very difficult" to place. Harry chooses "Not Slytherin", and the Hat decides to put him in Gryffindor.
Quirrell now has his turban.
The Slytherins have won the House Cup for the past six years. Does anyone except Slytherin or Gryffindor ever win the House Cup or Quidditch Cup?
Snape looks at Harry and Harry's scar burns (we learn later it was actually Quirrellmort's fault). But Harry also gets the feeling from the look that Snape doesn't like him. The look bothers Harry more than the scar pain.
Dumbledore tells everyone to stay away from the third floor corridor. The announcement makes the location of whatever is being hidden very public.
Harry has a dream that seems like true oneiromancy. Or just the author foreshadowing....
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Steve Newton - Mar 21, 2006 7:29 am (#18 of 43)
I wondered abut the not crossing McGonagall.
And, as far as I can tell, Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw need not even try to win the cups.
Sorry to be so late but this past weekend was my baseball draft and it took most of my time. May I'll have more after lunch.
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Choices - Mar 21, 2006 10:48 am (#19 of 43)
Chapter 7 ---
I really don't have anything much to add except a comment on Harry's dream at the very end of this chapter. I'm not sure about the first part of the dream, but the part that starts with Draco laughing at Harry, then Draco turning into Snape and then Harry sees a burst of green light - I think this definitely foreshadows the end of book 6. Draco standing before Dumbledore, then Snape takes his place, then Snape AK's (burst of green light) Dumbledore - Harry awakens, sweating and shaking.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Mar 21, 2006 2:14 pm (#20 of 43)
I believe the comments about not crossing McGonagall is also foreshadowing. I think they foreshadow McGonagall's efforts to defend Hagrid in OotP and Hogwarts in HBP.
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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 22, 2006 6:52 am (#21 of 43)
Choices, I agree that the dream foreshadows HBP. Dream Snape also has a high, cold laugh like Voldemort.
I'm wondering about the qualities of each House, and what exactly they mean.
Gryffindor is brave at heart. That's definitely a good thing to be. Daring and nerve are more neutral, because you can be daring enough to try a stupid stunt, or have enough nerve to do something truly evil. The chivalry thing is what stumps me. What does the Sorting Hat mean? That Gryffindors are courtious? That they ascribe to the Knightly Virtues? That they feel compelled to smite evil wherever it might be found? There's a whole range of connotations for chivalry. This is one of the things that sets up the assumption that Gryffindor=Good.
Hufflepuffs get a nice list of virtues, sort of at odds with the disdain with which the Hufflepuffs are generally regarded. They are just-- that's a very good thing to be. Loyal-- again, loyalty is highly regarded. True-- again, great stuff. Hard working-- who wants to be known as lazy? I wonder how they ever got their reputation for being "duffers"?
Ravenclaws are smart. Intelligence can be morally neutral, but it does trump ignorance every time.
Slytherins are cunning. Nothing wrong with that, although it does imply that they use their shrewdness for deception. Slytherins also use any means to achieve their ends, which is morally bankrupt. That is definitely an attribute that can easily lead to evil: the end justifies the means-- and out the window go morals and ethics.
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Steve Newton - Mar 22, 2006 11:57 am (#22 of 43)
I'm finally getting caught up.
Chapter 7-The Sorting Hat
There are hundreds of voices in the Great Hall. Since we are told of only 20 ghosts, a games keeper, a caretaker, and less than ten teachers it sounds as if there are hundreds of students.
Each house has it own "noble" history. The second McGonagall reference to noble.
Did Harry turn a teacher's wig blue?
There are about 20 ghosts. I think that we have only met 5.
"Glittering golden plates and goblets." Alliteration all about.
"But, don't judge on what you see." The Sorting Hat
Is there a real color that is lavender Brown?
Seamus takes a minute to be sorted. Neville and Harry also seem to take a long time. Harry and Neville being connected makes sense to me but not Seamus.
"It's all here in your head, and Slytherin will help you on the way to greatness." The Sorting Hat. Is this a hint of a horcrux? Is that Hat a seer?
"Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak!" Is there any meaning there? 4 Houses. 4 remaining horcruxes.
The Bloody has a 'gaunt' face.
Great Uncle Algie bought Trevor.
Percy seems to get on well with the first years. Freely shares what seems to be good information. He could be showing off, I guess.
It seems that the twins have been active in the Forest.
I think that someday everyone will sing the school song in the same tune. Harmony, don't ya know.
"Bring back what we've forgot." From the school song.
The twins sing the song to a funeral march.
"Music...a magic beyond all we do here.' Dumbledore
Harry's legs are twice described as lead.
I really want to know who the Fat Lady was/is.
Is Neville short? He needs a leg up to get in the common room.
I have problems with most of the dreams. I think that folks are right to connect this one with the HBP scene.
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TheSaint - Mar 22, 2006 12:43 pm (#23 of 43)
"Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak!"
Almost like saying, "oh how stupid, but can't cry now, kind of strange but we will adjust."
Yes..he is described as lead alright.
'I think that someday everyone will sing the school song in the same tune. Harmony, don't ya know. ' Love that!
I also find the words to the school song most interesting. I wonder what they forgot?
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Aimee Shawn - Mar 22, 2006 12:48 pm (#24 of 43)
I thought it really funny the kids thought the sorting involved a test of some kind. I'm sure Ron's brothers had horror stories to tell him about sorting. None of the others - that Harry heard - seemed to know how it worked either. Must be a "rite of passage" thing.
I found it very curious that Neville's family thought he was "all muggle". I had remembered he didn't do magic until he was older but I just didn't remember it phrased that way. I thought Neville's family was all wizards. I wonder why it was said that way. Is his mother muggle?
Dreams: Wow, Harry's dream is a good synopsis of the tower scene in HBP! I want to go through all the books again and just pull out Harry's dreams to see how much he foreshadows. Does he have Seer relatives, I wonder? Is this common to wizards and just taken for granted or unique to Harry?
Sorry, all questions. No insights or statements. You all are amazing with your ability to disect the text. I stand in awe.
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Steve Newton - Mar 22, 2006 2:34 pm (#25 of 43)
I just noted a missing word in my chapter 7 summary.
The Bloody Baron has a 'gaunt' face.
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TheSaint - Mar 22, 2006 8:37 pm (#26 of 43)
Oh...nice one Steve!
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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 23, 2006 6:51 am (#27 of 43)
"It's all here in your head, and Slytherin will help you on the way to greatness." The Sorting Hat. Is this a hint of a horcrux? Is that Hat a seer?
I wonder what the Hat sees? It-- like Ollivander did-- is implying that Harry will be great. Certainly Harry has enough Slytheriny traits all on his own to merit admission to Slytherin House, but it is odd what the Hat said.
"Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak!"
Almost like saying, "oh how stupid, but can't cry now, kind of strange but we will adjust."
I have a really vague memory of someone once, several years ago, somewhere, explaining what that meant. This memory is really vague, so vague it is nearly obscured by the fog of time. Someone had put forth that it meant something like "Hey, Stupid, if you're hungry just take some food!" They had provided etymologies for the words, but all I remember is that "Oddment" was supposed to be a bit of food, and "Tweak" was to take it. I don't have the dictionary resources to confirm this though. If true, "Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak!" does make a good before-the-feast speech.
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Steve Newton - Mar 23, 2006 6:53 am (#28 of 43)
I also remember reading some speculation about the four words. I can't remember where. Maybe I should check the Galadriel Waters book.
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Steve Newton - Mar 23, 2006 8:27 am (#29 of 43)
Way up top in post 14 Mrs. Brisbee writes "Why is the station platform nine and three-quarters, and not nine and a half? Just sounds cooler?"
What a good question which I am only now thinking about. If there are 3/4 than it is 1/4 away from the whole. Like 3 houses missing the 4th, perhaps.
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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 23, 2006 8:36 am (#30 of 43)
Ah, a missing quarter! Good explanation, Steve.
I actually came back on to note some good observations of yours:
I think that someday everyone will sing the school song in the same tune. Harmony, don't ya know.
"Bring back what we've forgot." From the school song.
The twins sing the song to a funeral march.
"Music...a magic beyond all we do here.' Dumbledore
The disharmony ties in with the missing quarter thing too. I guess it is really being emphasized that the disharmony in the school is leading to trouble.
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Steve Newton - Mar 23, 2006 12:18 pm (#31 of 43)
Chapter 8-The Potions Master
Harry is a celebrity.
There are 142 staircases in Hogwarts. I can't think of even a hint of a reason why this would be important. There is mention of a stair with a vanishing step which would seem to be the one of some importance in GOF.
Harry and Ron just happen to find the door to the 3rd floor corridor. What a coincidence, Quirrel is there.
Professor Sprout is dumpy.
I, along with Harry and Ron, get the names from Binns' classes confused and forgotten. I bet that I will regret that someday.
Flitwick is tiny.
Again, don't cross McGonagall.
Another pig.
Snape's eyes "made you think of dark tunnels."
I think that all of the things that Snape mentions come back in later books. (I don't want to start a stopper death discussion. It is going on elsewhere.)
The Draft of Living Death is a sleeping potion.
Neville destroys his first cauldron. (Seamus')
Harry loses 2 points. This seems trivial by later standards.
Hagrid also mentions the twins in connection with the forest.
Hagrid doesn't seem to like Filch.
What are rock cakes? I actually decided to look this one up. Briefly they are chunky hard fruity buns.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Mar 23, 2006 12:30 pm (#32 of 43)
Steve, I think the number 142 is another veiled reference to the number seven because when the three numbers are added together the sum equals seven.
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Choices - Mar 23, 2006 12:39 pm (#33 of 43)
One last comment on the line, "Slytherin will help you on the way to greatness...." Perhaps it means literally Slytherin or the heir of Slytherin, not Slytherin the house. It could be the defeat of Slytherin's heir that will lead to Harry's greatness in the Wizarding World.
And now to Chapter 8.....
It's interesting that Filch knows the secret passageways of the school almost as well as Fred and George.
Professor Binns is the only ghost teacher at Hogwarts.
McGonagall says that Transfiguration is some of the most complex and dangerous magic taught at Hogwarts.
Quirrell's DADA lessons are a bit of a joke.
The fact that Quirrell went PINK when Seamus asked him about fighting a zombie indicates Quirrell is hiding a secret.....boy, is he!!!!
Harry was wrong about Snape disliking him......Snape HATES him!!!
First mention of Draught of Living Death and Bezoars.
Snape criticizes everyone, but seems to like Malfoy. Why???? Would love to know the backstory here.
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Steve Newton - Mar 23, 2006 12:49 pm (#34 of 43)
Choices, I also wondered if mention of Slytherin meant other than his house. Maybe his heir, he's still alive, he made a horcrux and doesn't want Voldemort horning in, or time travel of some sort. Maybe I'm raving.
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Choices - Mar 23, 2006 1:13 pm (#35 of 43)
Steve - Voldemort (Tom Riddle) is the heir of Slytherin. I think maybe learning about him and how to defeat him will make Harry great in the eyes of the Wizarding World. But, the time travel thing is interesting - maybe Harry could go back in time and get some first hand knowledge from Salazar Slytherin - or perhaps he will find a notebook or something that Slytherin left at Hogwarts (COS?) and that will give him ideas about destroying the Horcruxes and ultimately, Voldemort.
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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 23, 2006 7:02 pm (#36 of 43)
Time Travel??? AAAAIIIIIEEEEEE!!!! ***runs about screaming in circles***
Okay, now that I've gotten that out of my system ....
What are rock cakes? I actually decided to look this one up. Briefly they are chunky hard fruity buns. --Steve Newton
Oh, good. I was ready to look them up. They certainly don't sound very appetizing!
Harry was wrong about Snape disliking him......Snape HATES him!!! --Choices
Ah, yes, welcome to baggage claim. Snape reminds me a lot of Aunt Petunia. Petunia resents Lily, and Harry pays the price. Snape hates James, and Harry pays the price (I almost put resents and hates in the past tense, but the emotions are very much alive despite Lily and James both being dead). Ongoing theme is that your family shapes how others treat you, whether you like it or not. It's one of those things you have to learn to deal with. We see the family thing with the way Harry is treated, when Hagrid gives Dudley a pig's tail to get even with Vernon, in CoS when Lucius Malfoy picks Ginny to give the diary because he wants to discredit Arthur, in HBP with Slughorn picking kids for his club based on family connections, and Voldemort picking Draco for a near impossible task to punish Lucius. Voldemort was even so uptight about his family he went and changed his name!
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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 24, 2006 7:02 am (#37 of 43)
A few additional notes on chapter 8:
There is a funny smell coming from Quirrell's turban. Quirrell needs the turban to hide the Voldy face on the back of his head. So why is Voldy so smelly? Is the unicorn blood responsible for the face, or is it too early for that? Is it a side-effect of long term possession, or is this different than regular possession?
Hedwig seems fond of Harry. She comes to the Great Hall even when she has no mail.
Snape: "If you aren't as big a bunch of dunderheads as I usually have to teach." Charming guy. Anyway, "dunderhead" is most likely from thunder+head. Snape proceeds to pick on the kid with the lightning bolt scar on his forehead.
Hagrid's crossbow is outside his door, by his boots.
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haymoni - Mar 24, 2006 7:54 am (#38 of 43)
Voldy can't hold a toothbrush, so maybe it's a breath problem.
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Steve Newton - Mar 24, 2006 8:21 am (#39 of 43)
Hagrid's crossbow shows up several times. I haven't followed them so don't have any revelations. I have been trying to keep track of 'cross' references but nothing yet.
Dunderhead and lightning bolt does seem like a connection. I have also wondered about the later Firebolt.
haymoni, I'm uncertain about your suggestion. The twins comments make it sound like it smells of garlic but it isn't actually stated that that is the smell.
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haymoni - Mar 24, 2006 9:04 am (#40 of 43)
The Twins throught that the turban was stuffed with garlic to keep vampires away, but you are right - we don't know what the smell actually was.
I am picturing Quirrell trying to brush Voldy's teeth with the toothbrush held behind his head.
"That was my nose, you idiot!!!"
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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 24, 2006 3:32 pm (#41 of 43)
LOL, Haymoni!
I'm interested in Hagrid's crossbow because he breaks it in HBP. I didn't remember it being mentioned so early in PS/SS. No idea what it means either.
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Steve Newton - Mar 25, 2006 6:20 pm (#42 of 43)
I checked my Galadriel Waters books and have found no mention of Nitwit! Blubber! etc. I only did a quick look and could have missed them but there is definitely not an essay there. I know I've seen one someplace.
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freshwater - Mar 26, 2006 6:07 pm (#43 of 43)
Mentioning Hagrid's crossbow shows him as both hunter and defender.
"Bring back what we've forgotten." from the Sorting Hat song...I wonder if it could be a deep understanding of wizarding history? JKR is constantly mentioning that everyone finds History of Magic magnificently boring, usually falling asleep or doing other work during that class...except for Hermione, of course. Reminds me of that old saying, "Those who forget (ignore?) history are doomed to repeat it." Now that goblins and giants --and possibly even those powerful house elves-- may become allies of LV (and who knows what those arrogant, resentful centaurs may do?) it is particularly important to know how they came to feel so un-allied to wizards, how past events contributed to that process and what can be done to reconcile the various groups for everyone's benefit.
THANK YOU for the insights into Harry's dream....I KNEW it had to be important...otherwise, why include it at all?....but had no clue as to why/how.
Last edited by Julia H. on Wed Jun 29, 2011 7:04 am; edited 1 time in total
Julia H.- Prefect
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Re: Harry Potter Book Read Along Thread - Philosopher's / Sorcerer's Stone
Julia H. Wed Jun 29, 2011 5:57 am
# Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's/Philosopher's Stone Ch 9-12
Denise P. - Mar 27, 2006 11:40 am
Edited by Kip Carter Mar 28, 2006 2:42 am
This thread is to discuss chapters 9 through 12 of the first book, Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's/Philosopher's Stone.
Chapter Nine: The Midnight Duel
Chapter Ten: Hallowe'en
Chapter Eleven: Quidditch
Chapter Twelve: The Mirror of Erised
Denise P. - Mar 27, 2006 11:40 am
Edited by Kip Carter Mar 28, 2006 2:42 am
This thread is to discuss chapters 9 through 12 of the first book, Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's/Philosopher's Stone.
Chapter Nine: The Midnight Duel
Chapter Ten: Hallowe'en
Chapter Eleven: Quidditch
Chapter Twelve: The Mirror of Erised
Julia H.- Prefect
- Posts : 6172
Join date : 2011-02-18
Re: Harry Potter Book Read Along Thread - Philosopher's / Sorcerer's Stone
Julia H. Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:05 am
Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's/Philosopher's Stone Book Read Along (Year 2006) (Chapters 9-10 or Posts 149-189 / 1-41 of the original thread)
Steve Newton - Mar 27, 2006 6:00 pm (#1 of 41)
Chapter 9-The Midnight Duel
I agree with Ron. Soccer is boring.
Neville has not been allowed to fly.
What good is a Rememberall if it doesn't tell you what you have forgotten?
Hooch has yellow eyes, like a hawk.
Neville falls from his broom and breaks his wrist. Harry does the same in COS.
Parvati stands up to Malfoy.
Pansy describes Neville as fat.
Harry is a natural on a broomstick.
Peeves obeys McGonagall.
Quidditch skill is the second bit of information Harry gets about his father. Godric Hollow is the first.
Harry is a secret Keeper. I guess its a stretch fo get to Secret Keeper from this.
Harry, Ron, Hermione and Neville are on an adventure together. The same ones as in the boat on the way to Hogwarts.
Why is the Bloody Baron in the halls near Gryffindor tower?
Peeves' sing-song voice seems to save the day.
The sorcerer's stone is a "grubby little package" but is very important and powerful. Maybe a hint about Mundungus or Aberforth.
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Choices - Mar 27, 2006 7:42 pm (#2 of 41)
Chapter 9.....
Malfoy has an eagle owl and Neville's Gran sends him things by barn owl.
Harry is a "seeker".
We learn the Trophy Room is always unlocked and there are cups, shields, plates, and statues of silver and gold in the cases.
If you want to hide something Gringotts is the safest place in the world....except perhaps Hogwarts.
(Those last two sound like a hint to me - think Voldemort and a Horcrux.)
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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 27, 2006 7:46 pm (#3 of 41)
Edit: crossposted with Choices.
If you want to hide something Gringotts is the safest place in the world....except perhaps Hogwarts.
(Those last two sound like a hint to me - think Voldemort and a Horcrux.)-- Choices
Now you mention it, yes, it does sound like a hint....
What good is a Rememberall if it doesn't tell you what you have forgotten?-- Steve Newton
My sentiments exactly. I guess it proves that just because magic is involved, doesn't mean it can't be useless.
Hooch has yellow eyes, like a hawk.
I wonder if Hooch isn't a sort of play on the saying "when pigs fly". Hwch is Welsh for hog, and hoch is Cornish for hog. Maybe Hooch is an Anglicized version of one of those?
Parvati stands up to Malfoy.
Not only is Parvati the first one to come to Neville's defense, she is also the first one to come to Harry's defense when McGonagall shows up. I took an instant liking to the girl. I suspect both Pansy and Parvati are Purebloods, or at least from Wizarding families, based on what Pansy says: "Never thought you'd like fat little crybabies, Parvati." They seem to be familiar with each other. And though I'm not much of a 'shipper, I really hope that Parvati and Neville end up marrying each other one day, just because of Pansy's snotty comment.
Peeves obeys McGonagall.
I noticed that. Doesn't she have trouble in one of the later books getting him to obey her? GoF?
Harry is a secret Keeper.
I think you mean he is a secret Seeker.
The sorcerer's stone is a "grubby little package" but is very important and powerful. Maybe a hint about Mundungus or Aberforth.
Or perhaps a metaphor for Harry?
Other notes:
Harry hates Draco more than he hates Dudley.
Harry wants to fly, but is afraid he'll make a fool of himself. Ron is reasonable, and helps quell Harry's fears.
Hermione tries to learn flying tips from a book.
Turns out Harry can fly, much to Malfoy's shock. Malfoy underestimated Harry.
McGonagall gives Harry a compliment and a rare smile-- she says his father would have been proud of him.
Ron gets Harry into a fight, by accepting the challenge to the duel for Harry. Ron: "But people only die in proper duels, you know, with real wizards."
Hermione almost told Percy about the duel, but didn't.
Is the Curse of the Bogies related to the Bat-Bogie Hex?
The trophy room is full of gold and silver cups, shields, plates, and statues.
Malfoy succeeded in tricking Harry and Ron. Don't underestimate Malfoy.
Neville notices the three-headed dog behind them, and Hermione notes the trapdoor. Extra eyes are good. Four pairs of eyes equals eight, like a spider.
Hermione: "I hope you're pleased with yourselves. We could all have been killed-- or worse, expelled." Great line.
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Steve Newton - Mar 28, 2006 7:26 am (#4 of 41)
Mrs. B, I had noted that Parvati stood up for Harry and then while I was typing I couldn't find where and so deleted it. Parvati is sort of a major minor character.
Between you and Choices it is obvious that I wasn't looking too closely. The Trophy Room is another example of a JKR list where I think she is slipping something by. Yes, I meant a secret Seeker.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Mar 28, 2006 10:48 pm (#5 of 41)
Parvati's first name has mythological connotations. In Hindu mythology she is the consort of Shiva.
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Steve Newton - Mar 29, 2006 11:30 am (#6 of 41)
Shiva the Destroyer?
Chapter 10-Halloween
Is this the 10th anniversary of Godric's Hollow and the fall of Voldemort?
The morning after Harry and Ron like adventures. Harry shares his stone information with Ron.
Bacon looks like another pig reference.
The quaffle is re, Bludgers are black and the golden snitch is...golden, with silver wings.
The Weasleys are human bludgers.
"He understood what he had to do all right, it was doing it that was going to be the problem." Good chance, I'd say.
Flitwick made Trevor fly around the classroom.
Harry avoids having Neville as his partner.
Parvati and Lavender are already friends and, apparently, are keeping track of everyone.
Harry and Ron never even think of telling anyone that Hermione might be in danger.
After locking the bathroom door Harry and Ron are "flushed with their victory." My kind of humor.
Ron does the spell perfectly when it counts.
"Harry and Ron tried to look as though this story wasn't new to them." I like the line.
Only 10 points for taking out a troll?
The troll was 12 feet.
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Choices - Mar 29, 2006 11:55 am (#7 of 41)
Chapter 10 .....
The Quidditch stadium has hundreds of seats.
Wood is careful not to lose the Golden Snitch.
Harry might turn out better than Charlie Weasley, who could have played for England had he not gone off chasing dragons.
Harry thinks of Hogwarts as home.
It's important to say magic words properly - Wizard Baruffio is an example of what mispronunciation can cause.
Quirrell pretends to faint when delivering the "troll in the dungeon" message. (After all, he let it in.)
Fighting a 12 foot mountain troll causes friendships to blossom.
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Steve Newton - Mar 29, 2006 12:57 pm (#8 of 41)
A couple of corrections to my sloppy typing above.
The morning after, Harry and Ron like adventures. Harry shares his stone information with Ron.
The quaffle is red, Bludgers are black and the golden snitch is...golden, with silver wings.
Added a comma to the first and a 'd' to make red a word.
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TheSaint - Mar 29, 2006 4:38 pm (#9 of 41)
After locking the bathroom door Harry and Ron are "flushed with their victory." My kind of humor.
Don't forget....they also 'chained up' the door.
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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 30, 2006 6:29 am (#10 of 41)
Just the sort of thing I overlook-- by accident and design (I've got a six-year-old child).
I don't have much to add. For some reason I couldn't come up with much on this chapter.
(And I know this has been mentioned many times before elsewhere, but) Nimbus is Latin for rain cloud. In English it is either a gray cloud that covers the entire sky, or it is the golden glow that emanates from gods, saints, or other holies. Weird name for a broomstick.
The Nimbus handle is made from mahogany. James's wand was mahogany.
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haymoni - Mar 30, 2006 6:31 am (#11 of 41)
I always thought "nimble" for Nimbus, like the broom would make you quicker or give you more control.
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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 30, 2006 6:42 pm (#12 of 41)
I'm still not having any deep thoughts, but I am wondering what spell Wizard Baruffio was trying to do when he accidently conjured a buffalo. Has anyone figured it out?
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TheSaint - Mar 31, 2006 5:17 am (#13 of 41)
I could never figure out how a man that said 's' instead of 'f' ended upwith a buffalo...wouldn't he get a bussalo?
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Steve Newton - Mar 31, 2006 5:49 am (#14 of 41)
I figured that it must have something to do with his name. I also thought that I was the only one who didn't get it.
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Choices - Mar 31, 2006 10:50 am (#15 of 41)
Evidently Wizard Baruffio was saying a spell and mispronounced it, putting an "s" where there should have been an "f". I can't figure out what the spell was supposed to be, but it certainly did the wrong thing. I think the main purpose of the example was to teach the kids the importance of correct pronounciation when doing spells.....even one incorrect letter can change the spell and cause disasterous results.
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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 31, 2006 7:07 pm (#16 of 41)
It just feels like there is supposed to be a joke there that I'm not getting. I see I'm not the only one
I agree, Choices, that the purpose of Wizard Baruffio is show us that correct pronunciation of spells is important. The words matter. Even when doing a nonverbal spell it is necessary to think the words. It seems that to do a spell properly, the witch or wizard needs to use the right words, make the right motions with their wand, and concentrate properly on what they are trying to do, and be able to put the right amount of power behind their spell.
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TheSaint - Mar 31, 2006 10:46 pm (#17 of 41)
Main Entry: 3 buss Pronunciation Guide Pronunciation: " Function: transitive verb Inflected Form(s): -ed/-ing/-es : KISS <we buss our wantons but our wives we kiss -- Robert Herrick died 1674> <when the tumult stilled, the doctor had bussed his wife heartily -- A.J.Cronin> Merriam-Webster
Perhaps our dear wizard was looking for a kiss....
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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 1, 2006 1:17 pm (#18 of 41)
Alas, Wizard Baruffio "said 's' instead of 'f' and found himself on the floor with a buffalo on his chest." (to quote Professor Flitwick.) So he started with a word with an "f", but said one with an "s" sound instead, and ended up with a buffalo.
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TheSaint - Apr 1, 2006 1:34 pm (#19 of 41)
So if he said s...how did he get a buffalo..instead of a bussalo?
The joke makes no sense.
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Finn BV - Apr 1, 2006 2:22 pm (#20 of 41)
Just popping in...
The context is, ""Now, don't forget that nice wrist movement we've been practicing!" squeaked Professor Flitwick, perched on top of his pile of books as usual. "Swish and flick, remember, swish and flick. And saying the magic words properly is very important, too – never forget Wizard Baruffio, who said "s instead of "f" and found himself lying on the floor with a buffalo on his chest –"
So he must have said, "Swish and slick."
The Lexicon reader's guide to this chapter is also stumped. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
...never forget Wizard Baruffio, who said 's' instead of 'f' and found himself on the floor with a buffalo on his chest."
I don't know about you, but I have tried to work out if there's a pun or a bit of word play in this odd sentence. If so, I can't find it.
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Choices - Apr 1, 2006 6:27 pm (#21 of 41)
I don't think the spell Wizard Baruffio was trying to do had anything to do with a buffalo or the word buffalo, he was just trying to do a spell and instead of putting an "f" in the word, put an "s" instead and ended up making a buffalo appear sitting on his chest. So, when doing a spell, be sure to say the word properly or you might be sorry. LOL
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haymoni - Apr 1, 2006 6:53 pm (#22 of 41)
I wonder if that is a misprint in the books.
Maybe it should be "r" instead of "s" i.e. Wizard Baruffio said "r" instead of "f".
That way, "Baruffio" would come out "Bafurrio" so that it sort of sounds more like "buffalo".
Or not...
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Nathan Zimmermann - Apr 1, 2006 7:03 pm (#23 of 41)
I think point may have been to reinforce the point about pronouncing incantations correctly as a foreshadowing of events with the Troll.
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TheSaint - Apr 1, 2006 9:53 pm (#24 of 41)
Yes..we thought so too..though it makes no sense.
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Steve Newton - Apr 3, 2006 10:16 am (#25 of 41)
Chapter 11-Quidditch
Hagrid wears a moleskin overcoat, rabbit fur gloves, and beaver skin boots.
Breaking rules seems to make you nicer.
Are library books really not to be taken from the building? My vague memories of Fantastic Beasts makes me think that Madam Pince frowns upon it but I'm not sure and can't check. (For MPISM fans, Snape is keeping track of library stuff.)
Why did Snape go to Filch about his leg injury?
Do people really put ketchup on sausage?
Dean is good at drawing. The first lion appearing at a Quidditch match.
"Flint flying like an eagle" and possibly troll blood.
"Can't nothing interfere with a broomstick except powerful Dark Magic" Hagrid
2 time Hermione produces blue flames.
Gryffindor 170-Slytherin 60
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azi - Apr 3, 2006 10:33 am (#26 of 41)
Putting ketchup on sausage is a normal thing to do in the UK.
Why did Snape go to Filch about his leg injury?
Maybe this supports the theory that Madam Pince and Filch are dating and then links with MPISM? Filch is a surrogate father of sorts? Personally, I feel it is because Filch is just as slimy as Snape himself and also appears to follow orders without question. They both share a dislike of students.
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Choices - Apr 3, 2006 10:37 am (#27 of 41)
At first I just thought maybe Snape wanted to keep his injury secret by not going to Madame Pomfrey, but if that were so, why did he do the bandaging in the staff room where anyone could walk in on him at any moment. Why didn't Snape go to his office (much more private) and have Filch help him there? Alas, I think it was for literary purposes - Harry had to see the wound and in the staff room was a convenient place.
I hardly see why there would be a rule not allowing students to take library books out onto the grounds - they study outside by the lake all the time and would need their books. I think Snape just made that rule up to be ugly to Harry.
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haymoni - Apr 3, 2006 12:03 pm (#28 of 41)
It seems strange now - why couldn't Snape cure himself?
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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 3, 2006 1:40 pm (#29 of 41)
Maybe there's something in Fluffy drool that prevents healing magic from working?
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Nathan Zimmermann - Apr 3, 2006 6:39 pm (#30 of 41)
Mrs. B. that is possible in Greek mythology Cerebrus both his bite and spittle were fatal to humans.
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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 5, 2006 11:27 am (#31 of 41)
Nathan, that's sure to be it. Thanks for that bit of mythological information!
(Yay! The Lexicon is back up!)
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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 5, 2006 1:22 pm (#32 of 41)
I too am dubious that the no library books in the courtyard rule is true.
"Flint flying like an eagle" and possibly troll blood.
Are "eagles" usually associated with Slytherin in the HP books? Draco has an eagle owl, and Voldemort received messages by eagle owl in GoF.
My notes:
Harry is a "secret weapon" (but the news that he is playing Seeker gets out anyway). We find out at the end of OotP that Harry really is a secret weapon. Soon (HBP) it's all over the Daily Prophet that Harry is "the Chosen One".
I'm curious, did Wood hold Seeker tryouts, or did Harry just get the job? Are Wood and McGonagall putting a lot of faith in Harry turning out to be a good Quidditch player because James was a good Quidditch player? We know Angelina picked Ron for the team in OotP partly because she figured he had potential to do better because of his family. The Team Captains before Harry seem to have been a bit more subjective about who they let on the team than Captain Harry. Harry does the opposite in HBP, and tries to be completely objective by letting the best athletes on the team without regard to their personality or family background. Which turns out to be a mistake in McLaggen's case, because his personality makes all his talent useless.
Years after Snape's Worst Memory, and he still doesn't seem to favor trousers.
Harry bets Snape let the troll in. Hermione defends Snape, but later is quick to suspect him of jinxing Harry's broom.
Anyone else think it amusing that Hermione tries to burn the evil witch-- er, wizard?
Flint protests Harry catching the Snitch: "He didn't catch it, he nearly swallowed it" Is there something metaphorical here? Nearly swallow the Snitch's lies, perhaps?
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Choices - Apr 5, 2006 6:54 pm (#33 of 41)
When McGonagall told Wood that she had found him a seeker, it sounded to me like he had been looking for a seeker (possibly holding try-outs) and been unsuccessful.
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Steve Newton - Apr 6, 2006 12:34 pm (#34 of 41)
Chapter 12-The Mirror of Erised
The twins manage to throw snowballs at Voldemort's face. I'm sure he's a forgiving kind of guy.
Snape's dungeon is cold.
Hogwarts has quite a large library.
Hermione's search is organized. Ron's is random. Harry goes straight for the Restricted Section.
JKR doesn't treat librarians well.
Ah, chess. There is a thread on the topic started by a well known low-life.
Ron's set had been his grandfather's. I wonder, Prewett or Weasley?
Harry finds the pieces shouting advice at him to be confusing. This sounds like a description of Dumbledore and his moves.
Why are Ron's sweaters maroon?
Ron recognizes the Invisibility Cloak at first sight.
The writing on the note is loopy. In POA Peeves calls Lupin 'Loopy.' In OOTP someone, Ron?, calls Luna 'Loopy.'
"Use it well."
The twin's sweaters are blue. Percy's color is not given.
Chipolatas are sausages.
Harry gets a chess set.
Percy's help doesn't help at chess. Ron is pretty good.
Visually, Harry in the cloak reminds me of a ghost.
More prickling neck.
The first time I read the book I didn't figure out the inscription.
Harry sees a loving family.
I think that somewhere JKR says the the ghost of the tall lady that they pass is the Grey Lady, Ravenclaw Ghost.
Ron's feet are "dead with cold."
I think that the Mirror is showing Ron's future. He will achieve all of his goals. Of course, the dead reference, above, gives one pause.
Twice, a noise interrupts mirror sessions.
Harry is drawn to the Mirror. Ron isn't. Like the Veil?
Scabbers is in Harry's bed when he returns from the Mirror.
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Choices - Apr 6, 2006 2:17 pm (#35 of 41)
Chapter 12 .....
I think the interesting thing is that the Twins bewitch the snowballs. They are very clever, magically speaking.
Ron vows to get Malfoy....sooner or later.
The library contains books of powerful, dark magic, never taught at Hogwarts. (All you ever wanted to know about Horcruxes, but were afraid to ask). LOL
I still think it odd that Harry, Ron and Hermione thought about asking Madam Pince where to find information about Flamel, but they were afraid she would tell Snape what they were up to. Why would she tell Snape in particular?????
What did the Dursleys mean by, "We received your message and enclose your Christmas present"? What was the message and who sent it????
If Invisibility Cloaks are "really rare and really valuable", how does Ron know what one looks like?
I have said before that I think the book in the restricted section screamed, not because it was about Horcruxes, but because Harry shouldn't have been in that section. Here's the line that makes me believe that.... "....but he thought a faint whispering was coming from the books, as though they knew someone was there that shouldn't be."
Harry sees at least 10 members of his family in the mirror.
Dumbledore doesn't need a cloak to become invisible.
Dumbledore gives Harry a lesson on understanding how the mirror works. "If you ever do come across it, you will now be prepared." Sure sounds like Dumbledore knows Harry will encounter the mirror again!
At this stage of his life Dumbledore would prefer woolen socks to books.
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Esther Rose - Apr 6, 2006 2:44 pm (#36 of 41)
Interesting that Dumbledore prefers socks (what freed Doby in COS) to books (what possessed Ginny in COS).
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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 6, 2006 6:27 pm (#37 of 41)
I always laugh my head off at that snowball bit. Imagine if Molly knew!
Hermione's search is organized. Ron's is random. Harry goes straight for the Restricted Section.-- Steve Newton
Good observation. Sort of tells us a bit about each of their personalities, doesn't it?
I also think it very amusing that Ron suggests Hermione ask her parents who Flamel is, but she dismisses the idea. Ironically, they might have been able to tell her: plenty of Muggles have heard of Flamel, and Philosopher's Stones.
Ron's set had been his grandfather's. I wonder, Prewett or Weasley?
Family is a major theme in the book, and especially in this chapter. Harry's borrowed chessmen don't trust him. Ron's are from family, and this is one case where it is noted not to be a drawback to have hand-me-downs. Family can impart wisdom, knowledge, and skill. Harry hasn't had that advantage, but Ron has it, and wisely uses it.
Why are Ron's sweaters maroon?
Molly keeps forgetting that Ron hates maroon, just like she forgets he hates corned beef. Is there something there? Maybe it's just that Ron gets maroon-- a deep red color-- whether he wants it or not, because he is a true dyed-in-the-wool Gryffindor.
I think that the Mirror is showing Ron's future. He will achieve all of his goals. Of course, the dead reference, above, gives one pause.
Dumbledore says of the mirror that it "will give us neither knowledge or truth." So I don't think it shows the future. Maybe literary foreshadowing, although I am doubtful at this point that Ron will become Headboy or Quidditch Captain.
Of course, later in the story the Mirror actually truly gives Harry knowledge of the Stone's whereabouts-- and the Stone to boot-- so what do I know?
Ron vows to get Malfoy....sooner or later.-- Choices
Yeah, this seems to be one in a long series of promises by Ron to get Malfoy. Has he yet? Maybe we have something to look forward to in Book 7!
What did the Dursleys mean by, "We received your message and enclose your Christmas present"? What was the message and who sent it????
I think Harry must have sent Hedwig to them with a note saying he wouldn't be back for the Christmas holidays-- then Hedwig probably wouldn't leave until they gave her some sort of present for Harry!
If Invisibility Cloaks are "really rare and really valuable", how does Ron know what one looks like?
I think this goes back to the family thing; Ron really seems to pay attention to what his father and older brothers say, and he has gleaned a lot of knowledge this way.
Dumbledore gives Harry a lesson on understanding how the mirror works. "If you ever do come across it, you will now be prepared." Sure sounds like Dumbledore knows Harry will encounter the mirror again!
Weird. And why was the door ajar? I don't think it was a set-up, where Harry was intended to find the mirror, because it was only by chance that Harry stumbled upon that corridor, but once he did find it Dumbledore makes sure Harry understands the Mirror. Dumbledore wanted Harry to understand it because Harry was in danger from the mirror's trap. But he also seemed to know there was a chance that Harry might encounter the mirror again. But I don't think that Dumbledore has a plan for this, or that he knows it will definitely happen. He does seem to want to encourage Harry to explore and investigate though.
At this stage of his life Dumbledore would prefer woolen socks to books.
Argh! Because we also have this: it struck Harry that Dumbledore might not have been quite truthful.
So much of my understanding of what happens in all the books is based on the precept that Dumbledore does not lie to Harry! But I guess I need to allow for the occasional flippant remark-- or maybe Harry was wrong, and Dumbledore really does desire socks above all else.
You guys have some great notes on this chapter! I have a few more things to add, but I'm fading, so I'll get back to it later.
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TheSaint - Apr 6, 2006 8:56 pm (#38 of 41)
I began to find Dumbledore's statement that the 'mirror offers neither truth nor knowledge' more of a clue to it being herring.
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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 7, 2006 6:19 am (#39 of 41)
I've been thinking more about Ron's vow to get Malfoy. In OotP, Ron become's the Slytherin target after he becomes the Gryffindor keeper, and he doesn't hold up well under their jeering song, "Weasley Is Our King". But by the end of OotP Ron has overcome their taunting. It is Ginny who takes out Malfoy in Umbridge's office, and other DA members who defend Harry from Malfoy on the train. Ron seems quite cheery about it. I think he has matured beyond the personal need to get back at Malfoy. I think Harry was surprised by Ron's lack of "get Malfoy!" zeal in HBP.
Anyway, back to Chapter 12:
Family is the big emphasis in this chapter. Draco likes to remind Harry that he has no proper family. Malfoy insults Ron's family and gets a rise. Ron told his mother that Harry didn't think he would get any Christmas presents, so Molly gives Harry fudge and a Weasley sweater, just like she gives all her children sweaters. The illusion is shattered by Fred, who notes that Harry's sweater is nice: "She obviously makes more of an effort if you're not family." Fred and George make Ron and Percy wear their family sweaters. They also insist Percy spend Christmas with them: "Christmas is a time for family." Percy seems to have done so, including the snowball fight and hanging around to give Harry distracting advice while he played Ron in chess. Ron's family chessmen trust Ron. Harry also gets his father's Invisibility Cloak for Christmas. Harry feels the need to use it alone the first time out, because of the connection to his father. And of course Harry sees his family in the Mirror of Erised, " and he stared hungrily back at them, his hands pressed flat against the glass as though he was hoping to fall right through it and reach them." (Sounds like another window glass reference, almost.) Ron wants to see Harry's family in the Mirror. Harry assumes the Mirror will show Ron his family, and Ron offers Harry reality over the illusion: "Just come round my house this summer."
A few odds and ends:
Wizard Chess Sets seem to be half a regular chess set. Each player needs to bring their own pieces to the game.
Harry puts on the Invisibility Cloak the first time and becomes a floating head. Sort of a reverse decapitation.
Ron is very sensible about the Mirror, and gives Harry good advice.
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haymoni - May 1, 2006 11:33 am (#40 of 41)
Steve Newton - I just read the Troll bit to my daughter last night.
I thought of you when I read the part about Harry being "flushed" with victory.
Very funny!
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Steve Newton - May 1, 2006 12:18 pm (#41 of 41)
Thanks, I'm all ablush.
It occurs to me that there is a thread on Potty Games. I guess a thread on Potty Humor would be out of line.
Steve Newton - Mar 27, 2006 6:00 pm (#1 of 41)
Chapter 9-The Midnight Duel
I agree with Ron. Soccer is boring.
Neville has not been allowed to fly.
What good is a Rememberall if it doesn't tell you what you have forgotten?
Hooch has yellow eyes, like a hawk.
Neville falls from his broom and breaks his wrist. Harry does the same in COS.
Parvati stands up to Malfoy.
Pansy describes Neville as fat.
Harry is a natural on a broomstick.
Peeves obeys McGonagall.
Quidditch skill is the second bit of information Harry gets about his father. Godric Hollow is the first.
Harry is a secret Keeper. I guess its a stretch fo get to Secret Keeper from this.
Harry, Ron, Hermione and Neville are on an adventure together. The same ones as in the boat on the way to Hogwarts.
Why is the Bloody Baron in the halls near Gryffindor tower?
Peeves' sing-song voice seems to save the day.
The sorcerer's stone is a "grubby little package" but is very important and powerful. Maybe a hint about Mundungus or Aberforth.
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Choices - Mar 27, 2006 7:42 pm (#2 of 41)
Chapter 9.....
Malfoy has an eagle owl and Neville's Gran sends him things by barn owl.
Harry is a "seeker".
We learn the Trophy Room is always unlocked and there are cups, shields, plates, and statues of silver and gold in the cases.
If you want to hide something Gringotts is the safest place in the world....except perhaps Hogwarts.
(Those last two sound like a hint to me - think Voldemort and a Horcrux.)
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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 27, 2006 7:46 pm (#3 of 41)
Edit: crossposted with Choices.
If you want to hide something Gringotts is the safest place in the world....except perhaps Hogwarts.
(Those last two sound like a hint to me - think Voldemort and a Horcrux.)-- Choices
Now you mention it, yes, it does sound like a hint....
What good is a Rememberall if it doesn't tell you what you have forgotten?-- Steve Newton
My sentiments exactly. I guess it proves that just because magic is involved, doesn't mean it can't be useless.
Hooch has yellow eyes, like a hawk.
I wonder if Hooch isn't a sort of play on the saying "when pigs fly". Hwch is Welsh for hog, and hoch is Cornish for hog. Maybe Hooch is an Anglicized version of one of those?
Parvati stands up to Malfoy.
Not only is Parvati the first one to come to Neville's defense, she is also the first one to come to Harry's defense when McGonagall shows up. I took an instant liking to the girl. I suspect both Pansy and Parvati are Purebloods, or at least from Wizarding families, based on what Pansy says: "Never thought you'd like fat little crybabies, Parvati." They seem to be familiar with each other. And though I'm not much of a 'shipper, I really hope that Parvati and Neville end up marrying each other one day, just because of Pansy's snotty comment.
Peeves obeys McGonagall.
I noticed that. Doesn't she have trouble in one of the later books getting him to obey her? GoF?
Harry is a secret Keeper.
I think you mean he is a secret Seeker.
The sorcerer's stone is a "grubby little package" but is very important and powerful. Maybe a hint about Mundungus or Aberforth.
Or perhaps a metaphor for Harry?
Other notes:
Harry hates Draco more than he hates Dudley.
Harry wants to fly, but is afraid he'll make a fool of himself. Ron is reasonable, and helps quell Harry's fears.
Hermione tries to learn flying tips from a book.
Turns out Harry can fly, much to Malfoy's shock. Malfoy underestimated Harry.
McGonagall gives Harry a compliment and a rare smile-- she says his father would have been proud of him.
Ron gets Harry into a fight, by accepting the challenge to the duel for Harry. Ron: "But people only die in proper duels, you know, with real wizards."
Hermione almost told Percy about the duel, but didn't.
Is the Curse of the Bogies related to the Bat-Bogie Hex?
The trophy room is full of gold and silver cups, shields, plates, and statues.
Malfoy succeeded in tricking Harry and Ron. Don't underestimate Malfoy.
Neville notices the three-headed dog behind them, and Hermione notes the trapdoor. Extra eyes are good. Four pairs of eyes equals eight, like a spider.
Hermione: "I hope you're pleased with yourselves. We could all have been killed-- or worse, expelled." Great line.
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Steve Newton - Mar 28, 2006 7:26 am (#4 of 41)
Mrs. B, I had noted that Parvati stood up for Harry and then while I was typing I couldn't find where and so deleted it. Parvati is sort of a major minor character.
Between you and Choices it is obvious that I wasn't looking too closely. The Trophy Room is another example of a JKR list where I think she is slipping something by. Yes, I meant a secret Seeker.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Mar 28, 2006 10:48 pm (#5 of 41)
Parvati's first name has mythological connotations. In Hindu mythology she is the consort of Shiva.
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Steve Newton - Mar 29, 2006 11:30 am (#6 of 41)
Shiva the Destroyer?
Chapter 10-Halloween
Is this the 10th anniversary of Godric's Hollow and the fall of Voldemort?
The morning after Harry and Ron like adventures. Harry shares his stone information with Ron.
Bacon looks like another pig reference.
The quaffle is re, Bludgers are black and the golden snitch is...golden, with silver wings.
The Weasleys are human bludgers.
"He understood what he had to do all right, it was doing it that was going to be the problem." Good chance, I'd say.
Flitwick made Trevor fly around the classroom.
Harry avoids having Neville as his partner.
Parvati and Lavender are already friends and, apparently, are keeping track of everyone.
Harry and Ron never even think of telling anyone that Hermione might be in danger.
After locking the bathroom door Harry and Ron are "flushed with their victory." My kind of humor.
Ron does the spell perfectly when it counts.
"Harry and Ron tried to look as though this story wasn't new to them." I like the line.
Only 10 points for taking out a troll?
The troll was 12 feet.
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Choices - Mar 29, 2006 11:55 am (#7 of 41)
Chapter 10 .....
The Quidditch stadium has hundreds of seats.
Wood is careful not to lose the Golden Snitch.
Harry might turn out better than Charlie Weasley, who could have played for England had he not gone off chasing dragons.
Harry thinks of Hogwarts as home.
It's important to say magic words properly - Wizard Baruffio is an example of what mispronunciation can cause.
Quirrell pretends to faint when delivering the "troll in the dungeon" message. (After all, he let it in.)
Fighting a 12 foot mountain troll causes friendships to blossom.
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Steve Newton - Mar 29, 2006 12:57 pm (#8 of 41)
A couple of corrections to my sloppy typing above.
The morning after, Harry and Ron like adventures. Harry shares his stone information with Ron.
The quaffle is red, Bludgers are black and the golden snitch is...golden, with silver wings.
Added a comma to the first and a 'd' to make red a word.
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TheSaint - Mar 29, 2006 4:38 pm (#9 of 41)
After locking the bathroom door Harry and Ron are "flushed with their victory." My kind of humor.
Don't forget....they also 'chained up' the door.
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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 30, 2006 6:29 am (#10 of 41)
Just the sort of thing I overlook-- by accident and design (I've got a six-year-old child).
I don't have much to add. For some reason I couldn't come up with much on this chapter.
(And I know this has been mentioned many times before elsewhere, but) Nimbus is Latin for rain cloud. In English it is either a gray cloud that covers the entire sky, or it is the golden glow that emanates from gods, saints, or other holies. Weird name for a broomstick.
The Nimbus handle is made from mahogany. James's wand was mahogany.
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haymoni - Mar 30, 2006 6:31 am (#11 of 41)
I always thought "nimble" for Nimbus, like the broom would make you quicker or give you more control.
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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 30, 2006 6:42 pm (#12 of 41)
I'm still not having any deep thoughts, but I am wondering what spell Wizard Baruffio was trying to do when he accidently conjured a buffalo. Has anyone figured it out?
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TheSaint - Mar 31, 2006 5:17 am (#13 of 41)
I could never figure out how a man that said 's' instead of 'f' ended upwith a buffalo...wouldn't he get a bussalo?
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Steve Newton - Mar 31, 2006 5:49 am (#14 of 41)
I figured that it must have something to do with his name. I also thought that I was the only one who didn't get it.
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Choices - Mar 31, 2006 10:50 am (#15 of 41)
Evidently Wizard Baruffio was saying a spell and mispronounced it, putting an "s" where there should have been an "f". I can't figure out what the spell was supposed to be, but it certainly did the wrong thing. I think the main purpose of the example was to teach the kids the importance of correct pronounciation when doing spells.....even one incorrect letter can change the spell and cause disasterous results.
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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 31, 2006 7:07 pm (#16 of 41)
It just feels like there is supposed to be a joke there that I'm not getting. I see I'm not the only one
I agree, Choices, that the purpose of Wizard Baruffio is show us that correct pronunciation of spells is important. The words matter. Even when doing a nonverbal spell it is necessary to think the words. It seems that to do a spell properly, the witch or wizard needs to use the right words, make the right motions with their wand, and concentrate properly on what they are trying to do, and be able to put the right amount of power behind their spell.
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TheSaint - Mar 31, 2006 10:46 pm (#17 of 41)
Main Entry: 3 buss Pronunciation Guide Pronunciation: " Function: transitive verb Inflected Form(s): -ed/-ing/-es : KISS <we buss our wantons but our wives we kiss -- Robert Herrick died 1674> <when the tumult stilled, the doctor had bussed his wife heartily -- A.J.Cronin> Merriam-Webster
Perhaps our dear wizard was looking for a kiss....
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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 1, 2006 1:17 pm (#18 of 41)
Alas, Wizard Baruffio "said 's' instead of 'f' and found himself on the floor with a buffalo on his chest." (to quote Professor Flitwick.) So he started with a word with an "f", but said one with an "s" sound instead, and ended up with a buffalo.
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TheSaint - Apr 1, 2006 1:34 pm (#19 of 41)
So if he said s...how did he get a buffalo..instead of a bussalo?
The joke makes no sense.
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Finn BV - Apr 1, 2006 2:22 pm (#20 of 41)
Just popping in...
The context is, ""Now, don't forget that nice wrist movement we've been practicing!" squeaked Professor Flitwick, perched on top of his pile of books as usual. "Swish and flick, remember, swish and flick. And saying the magic words properly is very important, too – never forget Wizard Baruffio, who said "s instead of "f" and found himself lying on the floor with a buffalo on his chest –"
So he must have said, "Swish and slick."
The Lexicon reader's guide to this chapter is also stumped. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
...never forget Wizard Baruffio, who said 's' instead of 'f' and found himself on the floor with a buffalo on his chest."
I don't know about you, but I have tried to work out if there's a pun or a bit of word play in this odd sentence. If so, I can't find it.
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Choices - Apr 1, 2006 6:27 pm (#21 of 41)
I don't think the spell Wizard Baruffio was trying to do had anything to do with a buffalo or the word buffalo, he was just trying to do a spell and instead of putting an "f" in the word, put an "s" instead and ended up making a buffalo appear sitting on his chest. So, when doing a spell, be sure to say the word properly or you might be sorry. LOL
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haymoni - Apr 1, 2006 6:53 pm (#22 of 41)
I wonder if that is a misprint in the books.
Maybe it should be "r" instead of "s" i.e. Wizard Baruffio said "r" instead of "f".
That way, "Baruffio" would come out "Bafurrio" so that it sort of sounds more like "buffalo".
Or not...
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Nathan Zimmermann - Apr 1, 2006 7:03 pm (#23 of 41)
I think point may have been to reinforce the point about pronouncing incantations correctly as a foreshadowing of events with the Troll.
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TheSaint - Apr 1, 2006 9:53 pm (#24 of 41)
Yes..we thought so too..though it makes no sense.
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Steve Newton - Apr 3, 2006 10:16 am (#25 of 41)
Chapter 11-Quidditch
Hagrid wears a moleskin overcoat, rabbit fur gloves, and beaver skin boots.
Breaking rules seems to make you nicer.
Are library books really not to be taken from the building? My vague memories of Fantastic Beasts makes me think that Madam Pince frowns upon it but I'm not sure and can't check. (For MPISM fans, Snape is keeping track of library stuff.)
Why did Snape go to Filch about his leg injury?
Do people really put ketchup on sausage?
Dean is good at drawing. The first lion appearing at a Quidditch match.
"Flint flying like an eagle" and possibly troll blood.
"Can't nothing interfere with a broomstick except powerful Dark Magic" Hagrid
2 time Hermione produces blue flames.
Gryffindor 170-Slytherin 60
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azi - Apr 3, 2006 10:33 am (#26 of 41)
Putting ketchup on sausage is a normal thing to do in the UK.
Why did Snape go to Filch about his leg injury?
Maybe this supports the theory that Madam Pince and Filch are dating and then links with MPISM? Filch is a surrogate father of sorts? Personally, I feel it is because Filch is just as slimy as Snape himself and also appears to follow orders without question. They both share a dislike of students.
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Choices - Apr 3, 2006 10:37 am (#27 of 41)
At first I just thought maybe Snape wanted to keep his injury secret by not going to Madame Pomfrey, but if that were so, why did he do the bandaging in the staff room where anyone could walk in on him at any moment. Why didn't Snape go to his office (much more private) and have Filch help him there? Alas, I think it was for literary purposes - Harry had to see the wound and in the staff room was a convenient place.
I hardly see why there would be a rule not allowing students to take library books out onto the grounds - they study outside by the lake all the time and would need their books. I think Snape just made that rule up to be ugly to Harry.
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haymoni - Apr 3, 2006 12:03 pm (#28 of 41)
It seems strange now - why couldn't Snape cure himself?
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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 3, 2006 1:40 pm (#29 of 41)
Maybe there's something in Fluffy drool that prevents healing magic from working?
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Nathan Zimmermann - Apr 3, 2006 6:39 pm (#30 of 41)
Mrs. B. that is possible in Greek mythology Cerebrus both his bite and spittle were fatal to humans.
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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 5, 2006 11:27 am (#31 of 41)
Nathan, that's sure to be it. Thanks for that bit of mythological information!
(Yay! The Lexicon is back up!)
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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 5, 2006 1:22 pm (#32 of 41)
I too am dubious that the no library books in the courtyard rule is true.
"Flint flying like an eagle" and possibly troll blood.
Are "eagles" usually associated with Slytherin in the HP books? Draco has an eagle owl, and Voldemort received messages by eagle owl in GoF.
My notes:
Harry is a "secret weapon" (but the news that he is playing Seeker gets out anyway). We find out at the end of OotP that Harry really is a secret weapon. Soon (HBP) it's all over the Daily Prophet that Harry is "the Chosen One".
I'm curious, did Wood hold Seeker tryouts, or did Harry just get the job? Are Wood and McGonagall putting a lot of faith in Harry turning out to be a good Quidditch player because James was a good Quidditch player? We know Angelina picked Ron for the team in OotP partly because she figured he had potential to do better because of his family. The Team Captains before Harry seem to have been a bit more subjective about who they let on the team than Captain Harry. Harry does the opposite in HBP, and tries to be completely objective by letting the best athletes on the team without regard to their personality or family background. Which turns out to be a mistake in McLaggen's case, because his personality makes all his talent useless.
Years after Snape's Worst Memory, and he still doesn't seem to favor trousers.
Harry bets Snape let the troll in. Hermione defends Snape, but later is quick to suspect him of jinxing Harry's broom.
Anyone else think it amusing that Hermione tries to burn the evil witch-- er, wizard?
Flint protests Harry catching the Snitch: "He didn't catch it, he nearly swallowed it" Is there something metaphorical here? Nearly swallow the Snitch's lies, perhaps?
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Choices - Apr 5, 2006 6:54 pm (#33 of 41)
When McGonagall told Wood that she had found him a seeker, it sounded to me like he had been looking for a seeker (possibly holding try-outs) and been unsuccessful.
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Steve Newton - Apr 6, 2006 12:34 pm (#34 of 41)
Chapter 12-The Mirror of Erised
The twins manage to throw snowballs at Voldemort's face. I'm sure he's a forgiving kind of guy.
Snape's dungeon is cold.
Hogwarts has quite a large library.
Hermione's search is organized. Ron's is random. Harry goes straight for the Restricted Section.
JKR doesn't treat librarians well.
Ah, chess. There is a thread on the topic started by a well known low-life.
Ron's set had been his grandfather's. I wonder, Prewett or Weasley?
Harry finds the pieces shouting advice at him to be confusing. This sounds like a description of Dumbledore and his moves.
Why are Ron's sweaters maroon?
Ron recognizes the Invisibility Cloak at first sight.
The writing on the note is loopy. In POA Peeves calls Lupin 'Loopy.' In OOTP someone, Ron?, calls Luna 'Loopy.'
"Use it well."
The twin's sweaters are blue. Percy's color is not given.
Chipolatas are sausages.
Harry gets a chess set.
Percy's help doesn't help at chess. Ron is pretty good.
Visually, Harry in the cloak reminds me of a ghost.
More prickling neck.
The first time I read the book I didn't figure out the inscription.
Harry sees a loving family.
I think that somewhere JKR says the the ghost of the tall lady that they pass is the Grey Lady, Ravenclaw Ghost.
Ron's feet are "dead with cold."
I think that the Mirror is showing Ron's future. He will achieve all of his goals. Of course, the dead reference, above, gives one pause.
Twice, a noise interrupts mirror sessions.
Harry is drawn to the Mirror. Ron isn't. Like the Veil?
Scabbers is in Harry's bed when he returns from the Mirror.
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Choices - Apr 6, 2006 2:17 pm (#35 of 41)
Chapter 12 .....
I think the interesting thing is that the Twins bewitch the snowballs. They are very clever, magically speaking.
Ron vows to get Malfoy....sooner or later.
The library contains books of powerful, dark magic, never taught at Hogwarts. (All you ever wanted to know about Horcruxes, but were afraid to ask). LOL
I still think it odd that Harry, Ron and Hermione thought about asking Madam Pince where to find information about Flamel, but they were afraid she would tell Snape what they were up to. Why would she tell Snape in particular?????
What did the Dursleys mean by, "We received your message and enclose your Christmas present"? What was the message and who sent it????
If Invisibility Cloaks are "really rare and really valuable", how does Ron know what one looks like?
I have said before that I think the book in the restricted section screamed, not because it was about Horcruxes, but because Harry shouldn't have been in that section. Here's the line that makes me believe that.... "....but he thought a faint whispering was coming from the books, as though they knew someone was there that shouldn't be."
Harry sees at least 10 members of his family in the mirror.
Dumbledore doesn't need a cloak to become invisible.
Dumbledore gives Harry a lesson on understanding how the mirror works. "If you ever do come across it, you will now be prepared." Sure sounds like Dumbledore knows Harry will encounter the mirror again!
At this stage of his life Dumbledore would prefer woolen socks to books.
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Esther Rose - Apr 6, 2006 2:44 pm (#36 of 41)
Interesting that Dumbledore prefers socks (what freed Doby in COS) to books (what possessed Ginny in COS).
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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 6, 2006 6:27 pm (#37 of 41)
I always laugh my head off at that snowball bit. Imagine if Molly knew!
Hermione's search is organized. Ron's is random. Harry goes straight for the Restricted Section.-- Steve Newton
Good observation. Sort of tells us a bit about each of their personalities, doesn't it?
I also think it very amusing that Ron suggests Hermione ask her parents who Flamel is, but she dismisses the idea. Ironically, they might have been able to tell her: plenty of Muggles have heard of Flamel, and Philosopher's Stones.
Ron's set had been his grandfather's. I wonder, Prewett or Weasley?
Family is a major theme in the book, and especially in this chapter. Harry's borrowed chessmen don't trust him. Ron's are from family, and this is one case where it is noted not to be a drawback to have hand-me-downs. Family can impart wisdom, knowledge, and skill. Harry hasn't had that advantage, but Ron has it, and wisely uses it.
Why are Ron's sweaters maroon?
Molly keeps forgetting that Ron hates maroon, just like she forgets he hates corned beef. Is there something there? Maybe it's just that Ron gets maroon-- a deep red color-- whether he wants it or not, because he is a true dyed-in-the-wool Gryffindor.
I think that the Mirror is showing Ron's future. He will achieve all of his goals. Of course, the dead reference, above, gives one pause.
Dumbledore says of the mirror that it "will give us neither knowledge or truth." So I don't think it shows the future. Maybe literary foreshadowing, although I am doubtful at this point that Ron will become Headboy or Quidditch Captain.
Of course, later in the story the Mirror actually truly gives Harry knowledge of the Stone's whereabouts-- and the Stone to boot-- so what do I know?
Ron vows to get Malfoy....sooner or later.-- Choices
Yeah, this seems to be one in a long series of promises by Ron to get Malfoy. Has he yet? Maybe we have something to look forward to in Book 7!
What did the Dursleys mean by, "We received your message and enclose your Christmas present"? What was the message and who sent it????
I think Harry must have sent Hedwig to them with a note saying he wouldn't be back for the Christmas holidays-- then Hedwig probably wouldn't leave until they gave her some sort of present for Harry!
If Invisibility Cloaks are "really rare and really valuable", how does Ron know what one looks like?
I think this goes back to the family thing; Ron really seems to pay attention to what his father and older brothers say, and he has gleaned a lot of knowledge this way.
Dumbledore gives Harry a lesson on understanding how the mirror works. "If you ever do come across it, you will now be prepared." Sure sounds like Dumbledore knows Harry will encounter the mirror again!
Weird. And why was the door ajar? I don't think it was a set-up, where Harry was intended to find the mirror, because it was only by chance that Harry stumbled upon that corridor, but once he did find it Dumbledore makes sure Harry understands the Mirror. Dumbledore wanted Harry to understand it because Harry was in danger from the mirror's trap. But he also seemed to know there was a chance that Harry might encounter the mirror again. But I don't think that Dumbledore has a plan for this, or that he knows it will definitely happen. He does seem to want to encourage Harry to explore and investigate though.
At this stage of his life Dumbledore would prefer woolen socks to books.
Argh! Because we also have this: it struck Harry that Dumbledore might not have been quite truthful.
So much of my understanding of what happens in all the books is based on the precept that Dumbledore does not lie to Harry! But I guess I need to allow for the occasional flippant remark-- or maybe Harry was wrong, and Dumbledore really does desire socks above all else.
You guys have some great notes on this chapter! I have a few more things to add, but I'm fading, so I'll get back to it later.
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TheSaint - Apr 6, 2006 8:56 pm (#38 of 41)
I began to find Dumbledore's statement that the 'mirror offers neither truth nor knowledge' more of a clue to it being herring.
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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 7, 2006 6:19 am (#39 of 41)
I've been thinking more about Ron's vow to get Malfoy. In OotP, Ron become's the Slytherin target after he becomes the Gryffindor keeper, and he doesn't hold up well under their jeering song, "Weasley Is Our King". But by the end of OotP Ron has overcome their taunting. It is Ginny who takes out Malfoy in Umbridge's office, and other DA members who defend Harry from Malfoy on the train. Ron seems quite cheery about it. I think he has matured beyond the personal need to get back at Malfoy. I think Harry was surprised by Ron's lack of "get Malfoy!" zeal in HBP.
Anyway, back to Chapter 12:
Family is the big emphasis in this chapter. Draco likes to remind Harry that he has no proper family. Malfoy insults Ron's family and gets a rise. Ron told his mother that Harry didn't think he would get any Christmas presents, so Molly gives Harry fudge and a Weasley sweater, just like she gives all her children sweaters. The illusion is shattered by Fred, who notes that Harry's sweater is nice: "She obviously makes more of an effort if you're not family." Fred and George make Ron and Percy wear their family sweaters. They also insist Percy spend Christmas with them: "Christmas is a time for family." Percy seems to have done so, including the snowball fight and hanging around to give Harry distracting advice while he played Ron in chess. Ron's family chessmen trust Ron. Harry also gets his father's Invisibility Cloak for Christmas. Harry feels the need to use it alone the first time out, because of the connection to his father. And of course Harry sees his family in the Mirror of Erised, " and he stared hungrily back at them, his hands pressed flat against the glass as though he was hoping to fall right through it and reach them." (Sounds like another window glass reference, almost.) Ron wants to see Harry's family in the Mirror. Harry assumes the Mirror will show Ron his family, and Ron offers Harry reality over the illusion: "Just come round my house this summer."
A few odds and ends:
Wizard Chess Sets seem to be half a regular chess set. Each player needs to bring their own pieces to the game.
Harry puts on the Invisibility Cloak the first time and becomes a floating head. Sort of a reverse decapitation.
Ron is very sensible about the Mirror, and gives Harry good advice.
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haymoni - May 1, 2006 11:33 am (#40 of 41)
Steve Newton - I just read the Troll bit to my daughter last night.
I thought of you when I read the part about Harry being "flushed" with victory.
Very funny!
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Steve Newton - May 1, 2006 12:18 pm (#41 of 41)
Thanks, I'm all ablush.
It occurs to me that there is a thread on Potty Games. I guess a thread on Potty Humor would be out of line.
Last edited by Julia H. on Wed Jun 29, 2011 7:05 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Harry Potter Book Read Along Thread - Philosopher's / Sorcerer's Stone
Julia H. Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:09 am
# Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's/Philosopher's Stone Ch 13-17
Denise P. - Apr 11, 2006 10:04 am
Edited Apr 11, 2006 6:54 pm
This thread is to discuss chapters 13 through 17 of the first book, Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's/Philosopher's Stone.
Chapter Thirteen: Nicolas Flamell
Chapter Fourteen: Norbert the Norwegian Ridgeback
Chapter Fifteen: The Forbidden Forest
Chapter Sixteen: Through the Trapdoor
Chapter Seventeen: The Man with Two Faces
I know this is a bit longer than normal but it doesn't make sense to have a dicussion for a single chapter.
Denise P. - Apr 11, 2006 10:04 am
Edited Apr 11, 2006 6:54 pm
This thread is to discuss chapters 13 through 17 of the first book, Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's/Philosopher's Stone.
Chapter Thirteen: Nicolas Flamell
Chapter Fourteen: Norbert the Norwegian Ridgeback
Chapter Fifteen: The Forbidden Forest
Chapter Sixteen: Through the Trapdoor
Chapter Seventeen: The Man with Two Faces
I know this is a bit longer than normal but it doesn't make sense to have a dicussion for a single chapter.
Julia H.- Prefect
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Join date : 2011-02-18
Re: Harry Potter Book Read Along Thread - Philosopher's / Sorcerer's Stone
Julia H. Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:18 am
Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's/Philosopher's Stone Book Read Along (Year 2006) (Chapters 13-17 or Posts 190-247 / 1-58 of the original thread)
Steve Newton - Apr 11, 2006 10:16 am (#1 of 58)
Thanks, Denise. I agree, leaving one chapter at the end would seem to be odd.
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Steve Newton - Apr 12, 2006 10:44 am (#2 of 58)
Chapter 13-Nicolas Flamel
Harry dreams of Godric's Hollow. (At least it sounds like Godric's Hollow to me.)
Harry has fewer nightmares when he is tired.
Hermione is not good at chess.
Neville Bunny hops to the common room. Hermione removes the Leg-Locker Curse easily.
Neville doesn't think that he is brave enough for Gryffindor.
Neville is "worth twelve of Malfoy." Harry
Neville give Harry the card that solves the Flamel mystery.
Grindelwald gets another call.
The 12 uses of dragon's blood is mentioned just 1 page after Neville is said to be worth 12 times Malfoy. A connection?
Dumbledore is partners with Flamel.
"a bit of light reading" is done very well in the movie.
Only one Stone is know to exist. Could there be another?
Flamel is an opera lover.
Is Snape following Harry? Later this happens a lot.
Ron attacks Malfoy and Neville takes on Crabbe AND Goyle. Not brave enough my eye. Neville is a direct kind of guy.
Parvati is next to Hermione.
Ron has a nosebleed.
Why don't students scout out the Forest by broom more often?
Neville was knocked out.
I suspect that Fred and George didn't steal food from the kitchens. As we find out in a later book, GOF?, the house elves seem anxious to give food to students.
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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 12, 2006 12:52 pm (#3 of 58)
Neville is "worth twelve of Malfoy." Harry
Both Ron and Hermione give Neville good advice, but Harry gives him what he needs: value. Neville has poor self esteem and Harry lets him know that he is worth something (twelve Malfoys on the open market, to be exact).
We see that Hermione is a good friend to Neville, too. She is the only one who doesn't laugh at his predicament.
Dumbledore is partners with Flamel.
They are alchemy partners. So, what does an alchemist do in the Harry Potter Universe besides create Philosopher Stones? It's not a separate subject matter taught at Hogwarts, so I'm wondering what exactly alchemy is.
Also, Harry guesses that Flamel must have realized that someone was after his Stone. I wonder about the details of that, even though I know we will never get them.
Is Snape following Harry? Later this happens a lot.
I'd say yes. Harry also starts to think Snape can read minds.
Ron attacks Malfoy and Neville takes on Crabbe AND Goyle. Not brave enough my eye. Neville is a direct kind of guy.
Ron and Neville are comrades-in-arms here. Later Ron almost sounds like he is bragging about Neville's conduct.
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TheSaint - Apr 12, 2006 3:53 pm (#4 of 58)
Dumbledore was creating a stone: Harry is the stone.
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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 12, 2006 6:09 pm (#5 of 58)
Dumbledore was creating a stone: Harry is the stone. --TheSaint
Could you elaborate on your idea? The Stone granted its possessor riches and long life, and in the end Dumbledore said it wasn't such a wonderful thing. Those things make it hard for me to equate Harry with the Stone.
On another note, I'm getting confused by the House Cup and the Quidditch Cup. Slytherin has won the House Cup seven years running at this point, and this is the first time anyone has pulled ahead of them in House Points in all this time. House Points are given out for winning Quidditch games. I thought it was mentioned somewhere about how long it's been since anyone else has won the Quidditch Cup, but I can't find it. Every time anyone mentions Quidditch they seem to also talk about the House Cup, not the Quidditch Cup, so I keep confusing them.
Draco Malfoy jinxes Neville in the corridor because he can. Why does this sound familiar **coughJamescough**? A bit ironic that Draco ends up as Snape's favorite student.
Wood and the rest of the Gryffindor team are certain Snape will not be fair. Snape is horrible to Harry during Potions.
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TheSaint - Apr 12, 2006 8:58 pm (#6 of 58)
There is more than one side to alchemy. The spiritual side makes Philosophers Stones...via spiritual enlightenment.
The Quidditch Cup is awarded to the team that wins the most points during Quidditch games? The House cup is awarded to the House that gains the most points during the year through correct answers, cooperation, good deads and quidditch wins, to name a few.
I agree..that is ironic that the new school bully is Snape's favorite.
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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 13, 2006 7:03 am (#7 of 58)
There is more than one side to alchemy. The spiritual side makes Philosophers Stones...via spiritual enlightenment.
I'm afraid I don't know that much about alchemy in general, and nothing at all about spiritual alchemy. Can you tell me what the spiritual Philosopher's Stone is?
I've been trying to find out exactly what alchemists do, although the books I have are concerned mostly with it's practical side and spare only a few paragraphs on it. It is the study of chemicals and metals, sort of wizarding chemistry, I guess.
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K Stahl - Apr 13, 2006 8:15 pm (#8 of 58)
Alchemy was the precursor to the science of chemistry. It was primitive chemistry at its most rudimentary level. Eventually enough observations were made and recorded so that a science was born and alchemy became a thing of fantasy. Dmitri Mendeleev did not publish his periodic table of 63 known elements until 1869.
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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 14, 2006 5:40 am (#9 of 58)
Right. So Dumbledore is the Wizarding World equivalent of a noted chemist.
I wonder why the subject isn't taught at Hogwarts?
Edit: Aren't chemists the U.K. equivalent of the U.S. pharmacist? Is a science chemist still a chemist?
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azi - Apr 14, 2006 9:00 am (#10 of 58)
Mrs Brisbee - sometimes they are called chemists, sometimes they are Pharmacies (as in the place you visit to get your medicines)! We call the people who serve you Pharmacists rather than chemists, I think. Science chemists are also still chemists.
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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 14, 2006 11:37 am (#11 of 58)
Thanks for clearing that up for me, Azi. I just wanted to be sure I was saying what I thought I was saying.
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Amilia Smith - Apr 14, 2006 5:54 pm (#12 of 58)
Mrs. Brisbee, Elanor presented a paper on Alchemy at Accio. She has been very gracious in sending it out to anyone who asks to read it. I have had trouble following the Alchemy Thread at times, but I found her paper very understandable and easy to read. This is what she says about Spiritual Alchemy:
There is not only one definition of alchemy but several. First, alchemists were searching for the Philosopher’s Stone, a transformational object used to transform base metals into silver and gold and also to provide universal medical cure for illnesses, “the Elixir of Life,” made thanks to the stone. But alchemy didn’t consist of laboratory work alone. It was also a personal quest as the Alchemists’ main aim was the ennoblement of the soul, symbolized by the ennoblement of the matter.
So, the Philosopher’s stone is not only an object but also the symbol of the journey the alchemist made to obtain it. This journey was the true reward because it gave him knowledge (he was supposed to have understood the mysteries of Nature), hence wisdom, and made him a better human being. This is what the alchemists called “the philosophical gold”: their own spiritual transformation was the true gold sought, the real Philosopher’s Stone. The symbol of this alchemical journey can be very rich when applied to Harry’s, and to other characters’, transformation in the books.
End quote.
If you want to read the rest of the paper, I'm sure Elanor would be willing to send it to you.
Mills.
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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 15, 2006 6:03 am (#13 of 58)
Thank you, Mills, for the quoting Elanor's enlightening explanation for a Spiritual Philosopher's Stone. Maybe I'll ask her for the paper after Easter.
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Steve Newton - Apr 17, 2006 10:28 am (#14 of 58)
Chapter 14-Norbert the Norwegian Ridgeback
Hogwarts has Easter holidays. I don't think we actually ever see them.
The 12 uses of dragon's blood is brought up again. It seems that the students are taught them in the first year.
Hagrid has a moleskin coat.
"rabbitin' about it in here" I don't know this expression. Is it common in England?
Ron shows pretty good initiative in checking for Hagrid's books. He also seems to to have a pretty good grasp of wizarding history and law.
Malfoy overhears the trio talking about the egg. In HBP he also overhears them and gets valuable information. Any other times?
Why does Draco wait to tell?
Ron's dragon bit turns green.
Hagrid is referred to as Mommy twice.
Harry seems pretty lax about taking care of the Invisibility Cloak.
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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 17, 2006 1:03 pm (#15 of 58)
Ron shows pretty good initiative in checking for Hagrid's books. He also seems to to have a pretty good grasp of wizarding history and law.
Ron is often shown to be sensible and intelligent. Sometimes this gets overshadowed by his goofiness and so-so grades, but he really is a smart kid.
Why does Draco wait to tell?
I wondered about this too. I think if he had told immediately, the only one who he was sure would be in trouble would have been Hagrid. Draco wanted to get the trio into trouble, so he waited until the time was right, and the trio would be the ones caught with the dragon. He probably was the one to tip off Filch. I'm not sure why Draco was foolish enough to get himself caught wandering the corridors, though. Maybe he couldn't resist hiding nearby in the hopes of seeing them caught.
Ron's dragon bit turns green.
Creature bites are a bad thing to get in the Wizarding World. Fluffy's bite seems to have been resistant to magical healing. Werewolf bites are cursed. Nagini's bite has a venom that thwarts healing also. Even with all that magic, wizards are still vulnerable to creatures.
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Choices - Apr 17, 2006 1:46 pm (#16 of 58)
Remember that Draco went up to get a book from Ron (in the hospital wing) and there was the note in the book telling when Charlie's friends were coming to get Norbert? I think this was the evidence Draco needed to get Harry and Hermione in trouble. I agree it was not Hagrid he was after that time.
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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 17, 2006 2:09 pm (#17 of 58)
The importance of family and friends seems to be a strong theme in the book.
One thing that impresses me this chapter is the lengths that the trio go to help out their friend, Hagrid.
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Steve Newton - Apr 17, 2006 7:05 pm (#18 of 58)
Yes. The love theme is definitely there.
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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 19, 2006 6:01 am (#19 of 58)
Ron's dragon bit turns green.-- Steve Newton
So Ron gets a green hand, which he complains feels like it is going to fall off. In other books Wormtail got a silver hand, and Dumbledore a black one.
One other thing worth noting, I think, is that Quirrell is counted amongst the teachers trustworthy enough to help protect the stone. So Dumbledore trusted Quirrell.
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Steve Newton - Apr 19, 2006 10:46 am (#20 of 58)
Chapter 15-The Forbidden Forest
More alliteration.
"Things couldn't have been worse." Wanna bet?
Why is the Astronomy Tower off limits? In HBP we find out that the Bloody Baron hangs out there.
Hermione was "as still as a statue." Foreshadowing of COS. Possibly a reference to Winter's Tale, by Shakespeare in which a character named Hermione is turned into a statue. I wish I knew more about the play.
Neville, unwittingly, sacrifices himself to protect Harry and Hermione.
Harry seems to get almost all of the blame for the lost points.
The other houses are united against Slytherin.
Do we ever actually see the House Cup?
At Quidditch practice Harry loses his name name and is just "The Seeker."
Detentions always seem to run very late into the night.
Werewolves are mentioned as as being in the Forest. The only one we have seen there is Lupin.
Filch and Hagrid don't seem to get along.
Hagrid-Nothing in the forest will hurt them if they're "with me or fang."
Is this Harry's first scar pain?
"If you're going to be cursed forever, death's better, isn't it?" Not everyone seems to agree.
It sounds as if Harry's death was foretold for this night.
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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 19, 2006 1:09 pm (#21 of 58)
Do we ever actually see the House Cup? --Steve Newton
I don't know. I can't remember it actually ever being physically described as present. Did Ron see it in the Mirror of Erised?
At Quidditch practice Harry loses his name and is just "The Seeker."
Ooh, I'd missed this reference when reading the chapter. Interesting that Harry loses his personal identity but keeps his job title. Names do seem important.
Filch and Hagrid don't seem to get along.
Filch even calls Hagrid an oaf when speaking to the kids!
Is this Harry's first scar pain?
The only other time so far was at the Start of Term Feast. Harry has been able to go the whole year without any other incidences. Why?
It sounds as if Harry's death was foretold for this night.
The centaurs do seem to foresee Harry's death. Bane is against giving any help to Harry. Ronan though argues that Firenze thought he was acting for the best, so for Ronan and Firenze at least one can choose to take action.
My notes on Chapter 15:
McGonagall says: "It doesn't take a genius to work it out." But then she gets it wrong. She'll go with a plausible untrue scenario rather than accept the implausible true one.
150 is a lot of points to lose.
Why are the House points counted by giant hourglasses? Hourglasses are usually used to measure time. Any ideas?
Harry won't go to Dumbledore with his suspicions because he has no hard proof. I wonder if Snape is in the same boat with his suspicions of Quirrell.
Ron wants to keep investigating. He's the only one who wasn't caught, though, and the other two want to keep their heads down.
Hagrid to Filch: ".... "'Snot your place ter do that...." 'Snot sure looks funny on the page.
Draco and Hagrid square off. Hagrid is sure Draco's family would accept the way things are done at Hogwarts, and back up the school. Draco has always disdained Hagrid, but this is probably the moment he decides he hates him, too.
Green sparks for something found, red sparks for danger.
Ronan is another character associated with red. The red centaur announces the Red Planet: "Mars is bright tonight." Black Bane tells Hagrid the same thing.
Malfoy scares Neville, and Neville sends up sparks. Hagrid then does a switch, swapping Harry for Neville. Probably the right choice, but I can't help but think that if Hagrid had taken Draco instead, Neville would have had the good sense to send up red sparks when he encountered real trouble-- something neither Harry nor Draco manage to do.
Why does Quirrellmort flee from Firenze? Wrong time for a fight? Afraid more of the herd was nearby?
Firenze knows that the Stone is hidden at the school. He knows that it is Voldemort in the forest. He knows Voldemort plans to get the Stone. Knowledgeable guy, Firenze.
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haymoni - Apr 19, 2006 1:12 pm (#22 of 58)
Strange that Hagrid swaps Harry for Neville.
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Steve Newton - Apr 19, 2006 1:55 pm (#23 of 58)
I had noticed the swap but not really thought about it. I suspect that it is important.
I recall Ron seeing the Quidditch Cup. Not sure about the House Cup. I decided to check and in chapter 12 Ron says the he sees himself holding both cups. No descriptions given.
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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 20, 2006 6:07 am (#24 of 58)
Steve, why the interest in the House Cup? I don't think it could be a Horcrux, unless Voldemort could somehow transfigure the Hufflepuff Cup and swap them. Unlikely, but there would be a nice irony in having the Cup so highly sought in the first book be the one they need to find in the last....
I'm off on a mini-vacation, so I won't be posting for the next few days.
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Steve Newton - Apr 20, 2006 6:52 am (#25 of 58)
The House Cup just seems to be something that comes up fairly often and I was curious. You're right, it probably isn't a profitable trail to follow.
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Steve Newton - Apr 24, 2006 6:03 am (#26 of 58)
Sorry to be lollygagging but I can't find my book. I'll give it another go tonight. It has to be somewhere.
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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 24, 2006 8:06 am (#27 of 58)
I just got back anyway, and need to read the chapter (and first find my book).
The House Cup just seems to be something that comes up fairly often and I was curious. You're right, it probably isn't a profitable trail to follow.
I like Choice's idea that the trophy room is important. It would make a most excellent place to hide the Hufflepuff Cup, a founder's object which is likely what allows Voldemort to interfere with the DADA professor's contract. The House Cup does come up a lot, and curiously we the readers have never actually seen it, but it does seem very unlikely the two cups could be the same.
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Steve Newton - Apr 26, 2006 10:53 am (#28 of 58)
I finally found it.
Chapter 16-Through the Trap Door
More alliteration.
"While they tried to remember how to make a Forgetfulness Potion." I love it.
Harry is having nightmares. A hooded figure dripping blood.
Harry is thinking about Voldemort visiting in his dreams. Is he?
I think that at least one of these History of Magic topics will be important. Which? No idea.
The Giant Squid and Dumbledore is no where around. AHA!
Dumbledore's office seems to be where he lives.
"I'm never going over to the Dark Side.!" Harry
Harry finds out that a team works together. All must go on. In OOTP this lesson will be repeated.
Hermione turns to her books for help.
Trevor looks "as though he'd been making another bid for freedom." I wish that I could figure Trevor out.
Neville tries to stop the trio. "Don't call me an idiot.!"
Harry turns to Hermione for help with Neville.
Mrs. Norris-lamplike eyes.
Harry seems to do a good imitation of the Bloody Baron. Does he ever speak to anyone?
Fluffy seems to be a formidable obstacle. Are we sure that Snape was bitten by Fluffy?
The plant does seem to be a weak defense.
Did they really drop "miles under the school"? Must be hyperbole.
"Are you a witch or not?" Great line.
Catching the key-probably difficult for an average wizard. Good spotting and flying needed. Seeker skills.
Winged key=Winky?
The white chessmen have no faces. No word on the black chessmen.
Ron takes instant command of the chess situation.
"I'm going to be a knight." Ron. The role that I see him in for the last book. Hermione is a castle, also called a rook. Harry is a bishop. Isn't a rook also a crow?
Harry moves 7 total spaces. 4 to the right and 3 to the left. 7 books? 7 soul bits?
"Every time one of their men was lost, the white pieces showed no mercy." That's how I'd call it.
Ron has to be taken.
"You've got to make some sacrifices." Ron
The chess task seems pretty tough.
The troll seems to be doable but tough for an average wizard.
Hermione, the Muggle born, solves the riddle. I think that a wizard would have a real problem with this.
The potions are like ice.
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TheSaint - Apr 26, 2006 4:11 pm (#29 of 58)
SN - Harry is thinking about Voldemort visiting in his dreams. Is he?
Sounds more like Harry is visiting Voldemort.
SN - I wish that I could figure Trevor out. You and me both!
SN - "I'm going to be a knight." Ron Harry is a bishop. You know..i have always wondered. Seems in some grail tales the hero comes to the castle and meets the Red Knight outside, who is supposed to be the hero, but battles him and takes his cloak. I always thought of Ron as the red Knight.
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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 26, 2006 6:21 pm (#30 of 58)
Harry finds out that a team works together. All must go on. In OOTP this lesson will be repeated. --Steve Newton
Right. I loved how Ron and Hermione won't let Harry go alone: "How do you think you'd get the Stone without us?..."
The plant does seem to be a weak defense.
Well, maybe. A devil's snare did kill Bode in OotP, and no one at St. Mungo's noticed the dangerous plant(And Healers need a Herbology NEWT)! I think your point that many of the obstacles are only effective against an average wizard is good. Fluffy was definitely formidable, though. Both Flitwick's and McGonagall's tests tried skill rather than magical ability. Snape's tested logic. But Dumbledore's tested morals, and was really the only obstacles that could stump Voldemort. Nothing in any of the other obstacles would specifically challenge someone solely because they were evil.
"You've got to make some sacrifices." Ron
I must say, Ron shows tactical brilliance, and he's really, really, really brave. Tactical thinking is weighing out what you will gain versus what you will lose, and then acting on it knowing full well what will happen. Harry is more a look-before-you-leap kind of guy.
SN - Harry is thinking about Voldemort visiting in his dreams. Is he?
Sounds more like Harry is visiting Voldemort. --TheSaint
Hmm. Never occured to me that Harry could be actually seeing Voldy in his dreams. Harry does complain that his scar hurts much of the time. And it might tie into his earlier dream. Now I need to reread that part....
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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 26, 2006 6:53 pm (#31 of 58)
Some other notes:
Harry believes his scar warns him about danger. Is the pain growing stronger because the unicorn blood has made Voldemort stronger?
Neville will never be playing Quidditch for England!
Dumbledore doesn't know about Hagrid's slip. Harry resolves to do the smart thing and go to Dumbledore. So far Harry has told no one other than Ron and Hermione that he met Voldemort in the forest. Does Firenze communicate with Dumbledore?
McGonagall gives Harry the brush off. Why didn't she hear him out?
The MoM note was probably legit. Fudge was always asking Dumbledore's advice. If a fake note was sent, Dumbledore might have Apparated to London, and then returned two minutes later once he found out it was a trick. I think Quirrelmort was biding his time until Dumbledore was called away from the school.
Snape warns off Harry. Which brings up the question, Where was Snape when everything was happening later in the evening?
Harry has the right priorities: "Do you think he'll leave you and your families alone if Gryffindor wins the House Cup?"
The Stone's protections have a lot of threes and sevens.
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Steve Newton - Apr 28, 2006 11:26 am (#32 of 58)
Edited Apr 28, 2006 12:44 pm
I'll be busy for most of the weekend so I thought I'd post this now.
Chapter 17-The Man With Two Faces
As Nathan has pointed out elsewhere this is a possible Janus Reference.
On my first reading I was very surprised by Quirrell.
Quirrell's laugh is "cold and sharp."
Snape's counter curse had saved Harry. According to Quirrell.
I wonder if the Mirror is the key to defeating Voldemort.
Voldemort-"chalk white with glaring red eyes and slits for nostrils, like a snake." "Mere shadow and vapor."
"Better save your own life and join me..." Perhaps what Voldemort had said to Lily.
"His head felt like it was about to split in two." A Horcrux hint?
It bothers me that Harry has the Stone that makes the elixir of life, Dumbledore who know how to use it, and he miraculously survives. A little part of me says that Harry died here and bounced back.
How did the Word get out? Who told?
"They have enough Elixir left to set their affairs in order." It sounds like what Dumbledore was doing in HBP.
"Always use the proper name for things." Dumbledore. In OOTP he calls him Riddle. Why the change?
Truth "should therefore be treated with a great deal of caution."-Dumbledore
Dumbledore admits that he won't be forthright.
Harry tells Ron and Hermione everything. Like in HBP.
Ron suggests that Dumbledore knew that Harry would try to get the Stone.
Does Hagrid ever drink again? POA Christmas dinner?
While I like Harry helping to win the Cup I feel sorry for Slytherin. Publicly hosed at the last minute.
Percy is proud of Ron.
Neville's points are a very nice touch. Again he is grouped with the trio.
It is Harry's best evening.
Trevor is found in the toilets. Probably not Myrtle's.
It looks as if they leave Hogwarts in the boats. I can't tell if this is just the first years or not.
Harry remembers to thank Molly.
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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 28, 2006 11:48 am (#33 of 58)
"His head felt like it was about to split in two." A Horcrux hint?
Oooo, good catch! I wonder how many other times his headaches are described like that?
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Nathan Zimmermann - Apr 28, 2006 2:48 pm (#34 of 58)
Here is the post on Janus that Steve referred to earlier.Nathan Zimmermann, "+ The Use of Mythology In HP" #, 23 Feb 2005 12:13 pm
The reference to Harry's head being split in two reminds me of the birth of Athena.
In ancient Greek mythology Athena, the goddess of wisdom was the daughter of Zeus and the Titaness, Metis, who was associated with divine wisdom. During the course of her pregnancy. Themis the goddess of justice prophesied that if Metis gave birth to a boy. The child would become powerful enough to overthrow Zeus, much in the same way that both his father Coronus and his grandfather Uranus had been overthrown. Fear this Zeus consumed Metis. While, imprisoned set work fashioning the arms armor for Athena. The work of Metis caused to Zeus complain of a headache and he ordered Hephaestus to smite him on the head. Hephaestus duly complied and the myths assert that Athena sprang forth fully mature, and armed for battle.
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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 28, 2006 3:58 pm (#35 of 58)
That's a cool story about the birth of Athena, Nathan. I wonder if that hammer blow left a scar?
Wasn't Zeus's symbol a lightning bolt?
Speaking of lightning bolts, I finally got around to reading The Hero With A Thousand Faces, and Joseph Campbell had an interesting footnote about the symbolic meaning of the lightning bolt. Of course, I've had to return the book to the library so I don't have it to reference anymore, but basically the lightning bolt was often used by warrior gods to symbolize enlightened prowess. Not sure if I can explain it clearly. The power is in what the warrior knows, and in his skill, not in the sword he holds. He could throw all his weapons and armor away, and still be just as powerful because he still has his knowledge. That's what the lightning bolt symbolizes.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Apr 28, 2006 7:46 pm (#36 of 58)
Mrs B., chief weapons of Zeus were the thunderbolt,and the lightning bolt.
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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 29, 2006 5:48 am (#37 of 58)
Thank you.
My last post was an incomplete thought. I wanted to say at the end of it that then Voldemort is foolish for tearing and removing pieces if his soul, because the soul is the seat of enlightenment. He gets to keep all his magical power, but he can only use it in a less and less enlightened way with each lost soulbit. He has diminished himself, and moves closer and closer to things like magic portraits, that have no soul and can only repeat catchphrases, stuck in time, and never capable of growth. It's funny then, that Voldemort gives the lightning bolt to Harry.
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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 29, 2006 7:09 am (#38 of 58)
Edited Apr 29, 2006 8:28 am
One problem I'm having with these final chapters is that there is almost too much good stuff to note in them. Steve Newton had a bunch of good points and interesting questions from chapter 16 that I didn't even touch. Again with chapter 17. I've got a lot here to catch up on. But alas, no time right now.
Isn't a rook also a crow? --Steve Newton, notes on chapter 16
I Wikapedia'ed rook, because they are not a North American bird. They hang out in the U.K. and other European countries. I thought they were like ravens. Turns out rooks belong to the same family as crows and ravens, and like them, are noted for their intelligence, curiosity, and mischeviousness. I think Hermione being a rook was an oblique reference to her Ravenclaw-like intelligence. The rook in chess is considered the second most powerful piece, after the queen. Knights and bishops come after the rook. But then, we also know that power is second to how you use it. Hermione calls Harry a great wizard-- not because he has outstanding magical ability, but because of what he chooses to do.
Edit:
Lol, I've just realized a few things.
Harry moves 7 total spaces. 4 to the right and 3 to the left. 7 books? 7 soul bits? --Steve Newton, on chapter 16
First, I missed that 7 reference on my read through. Good catch, Steve! Second, Harry is moving to the right and left. The bishop is zigzagging around the board, like a lightning bolt. Duh, why didn't I notice that before? Third, instead of going forward 4 and then 3 squares, he goes right 4, and then left 3. Of course the bishop has made lot's of other moves, but this is symbolic, and symbolically where does that put the bishop? It depends on whether Harry started with the bishop to the right or left of the king and queen. The possibilities are the knight's row, the queen's row, or the king's row (row, or rank? can't keep them straight). I'm rooting for the king's row. Of course, his move checkmate's the white king. That's not the same as taking the king, is it?
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Nathan Zimmermann - Apr 29, 2006 9:26 am (#39 of 58)
Mrs. B., this is what the website of the United States Chess Federation say on the matter of checkmate.
The main goal of chess is to checkmate your opponent's King. The King is not actually captured and removed from the board like other pieces. But if the King is attacked ("checked") and threatened with capture, it must get out of check immediately. If there is no way to get out of check, the position is a "checkmate," and the side that is checkmated loses.
([You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
The concept of checkmate is intriguing as it does not in the modern sense imply the death of the king only his defeat. As Dumbledore pointed out while, dueling with Tom Riddle in the DoM there are things worse than death.
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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 29, 2006 9:28 am (#40 of 58)
So Harry (or anyone else on his team) cannot ever occupy the same square as the white king, which is fitting given the moral failings of Voldemort. Harry wouldn't want to go there anyway.
Forget my third point. Symbolically Harry ends up in the Queen's row, since black starts with the queen fourth from its left side. It's white would have the king fourth from its left, since the king and queen stand across from their opposite numbers. The queen (originally a vizier), though, is the most powerful piece
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Mrs Brisbee - May 2, 2006 6:00 am (#41 of 58)
I started this ages ago and never finished it. This is what I got. I was going to look up all the mythological connections in more depth, but didn't get around to it.
Room No.1
Door: To the third (3) floor corridor.
Obstacle: Fluffy, the giant three-headed(3) dog.
Test: Finding a way to circumnavigate the monstrous dog. Not even powerful wizards like Snape and Quirrell could deal with it directly.
Solved: Harry.
Myth: Cerberus was the monstrous three-headed dog that guarded the gates of Hades, making sure the living didn’t enter, and the dead did not leave. Here is another gate reference that ties in nicely with Janus.
Room No.2
Door: Wooden trapdoor.
Obstacle: Devil’s Snare.
Test: Knowledge of Herbology. Ability to remain calm in the face of danger. (I can’t help but note that the ability to produce heat and light under duress is the same ability needed to ward off Inferi).
Solved: Hermione figures it out, but it takes Harry and Ron to keep her calm enough to do something about it.
Myth: “Devil” being the inhabitant of the underworld, appropriate to meet just the other side of Fluffy. There are many myths of heroes going into the underworld to try to retrieve someone who has died. The trio and Quirrellmort are all after the Stone that promises long life. Voldemort is undertaking the journey to restore himself, the trio to stop him.
Room No.3
Door: No door. Instead a long, stone corridor that leads down.
Obstacle: A door with a silver lock that can only be opened by finding amongst the hundreds of flying keys the silver key, and catching it.
Test: Visual acuity, physical agility.
Solved: Ron figures out what to do, Harry’s Quidditch skill gets the key, with a little flying help from Ron and Hermione.
Myth: ?
Room No.4:
Door: Door with silver lock.
Obstacle: Giant chess game.
Test: Knowledge of chess, tactical thinking.
Solved: Ron.
Myth:? It takes 7 steps forward for a chessman to reach the opposite end of the board. Harry moves 4 and then 3, for a total of 7 spaces.
Room No.5
Door: Need to go through two doors to get to the room.
Obstacle: A large troll. This is the obstacle placed by Quirrell, and it is the only obstacle that Quirrellmort has removed.
Test: The trio actually proved their ability to overcome trolls ages ago.
Solved: No need
Myth: ? Trolls are often guardians of bridges and castles in fairy tales. The only one I can think of offhand is Billy Goat’s Bluff.
Room No.6
Door: Plain door entering, purple flame to go back.
Obstacle: The Potions Puzzle.
Test: Logic. Perfect for Hermione, baffling for Harry.
Solved: Hermione.
Myth: ?
Room No.7
Door: Black flame.
Obstacle: Quirrellmort and the Mirror of Erised.
Test: Moral. Voldemort and Quirrell cannot overcome this test, but Harry can.
Solved: Harry.
Myth: Janus, the Roman god of gates and doors. One face looks forward, the other behind. One represents sunrise, the beginning, and the other sunset, the end. In times of war, the doors of his temple are thrown open. In times of peace, they are closed.
Ron solves one puzzle on his own-- the chessboard room-- and Hermione does one--the potion puzzle. Harry solves the first and last rooms on his own-- except he needs to be rescued by Dumbledore at the end, so he's not ready for the Voldemort obstacle. It definitely took all of them to reach the end. No one of them could have done it on their own.
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Steve Newton - May 2, 2006 6:05 pm (#42 of 58)
Well done Mrs. B!
Do you connect each test to one of the books?
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Mrs Brisbee - May 3, 2006 5:47 am (#43 of 58)
I think it's almost too easy to connect up each room to the books in order (except for 7, because the book isn't written yet). Coincidence? The miracle of hindsight? I don't know. The similarities are there, though let me be the first to admit they don't impart any depth or reveal any hitherto unsuspected plot elements in the books
Room 1) The power of three. Fluffy equals the trio. Both are guardians of the gate between life and death; the Trio actually takes on Cerberus's role when they go to protect the Stone from being stolen.
Room 2) Danger lurks under the school, and Ginny falls into the snare of the "Devil" (Tom Riddle).
Room 3) The elusive silver key. The elusive silver Patronus, the key to understanding that the love we are given will stay with us forever, and is a powerful strength.
Room 4) The big chessboard. The Triwizard Tournament. Harry takes the White King, Harry beats Voldemort..
Room 5) Troll. Umbridge. A foul guardian that needs to be removed. Works for me.
Room 6) The riddle of the Potion Master. The two possible solutions, because we are missing key information that would let us know for sure.
Room 7) We know Harry and Voldy will confront each other again, so this one is a no brainer. If Harry does turn out to be a Horcrux, than Voldy growing out of Quirrell's head would take on more significant meaning.
It might be superficial, but I think the connections are there.
I'll finally get my notes on chapter 17 up later today.
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Steve Newton - May 3, 2006 7:29 am (#44 of 58)
In your Room 7 comment you bring up the combatants but the test is the Mirror. If your other analyses are right, and its a good chance that they are, then, I think, its the Mirror that is the clue.
In Room 6 a Muggle born figured it out. Does this suggest that Hermione, a Muggle born, is right about the HBP? I don't remember everything that she said about him.
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Mrs Brisbee - May 3, 2006 8:05 am (#45 of 58)
Chapter 17-The Man With Two Faces
Snape's counter curse had saved Harry. According to Quirrell. --Steve Newton
This cleared up several things for me. Quirrell states unequivocally that he was trying to kill Harry. I'd wondered, since it was an unlikely and risky means to commit murder. Had it worked at once, it might have gone down as a flying accident. But why stubbornly keep at it once Snape started the countercurse? Oh, okay, plot reasons.
I wonder if the Mirror is the key to defeating Voldemort.
Maybe the metaphorical key.
"His head felt like it was about to split in two." A Horcrux hint?
Love this one.
It bothers me that Harry has the Stone that makes the elixir of life, Dumbledore who know how to use it, and he miraculously survives. A little part of me says that Harry died here and bounced back.
I don't think the Stone can return the dead to life. Though if the Stone could save Harry's life (him not being quite dead yet), I'm sure Dumbledore would have used it. Why not?
"Always use the proper name for things." Dumbledore. In OOTP he calls him Riddle. Why the change?
Hmmm. "Voldemort" is a name and persona Tom Riddle created for himself, with the intent that the mere mention of the name would inspire fear. I think Dumbledore just doesn't want Harry to buy into that, because it gives Voldy power he doesn't deserve. Most of the Wizarding World knows about Voldemort, so that's the name Harry is most likely to encounter in the next few years. Dumbledore also isn't ready to explain Tom Riddle.
Dumbledore admits that he won't be forthright.
He promises he won't lie to Harry. I base a lot of what I assume to be true in the series on the assumption that he continues to keep this promise through all the books. He will withhold information and mislead Harry, but not lie.
Ron suggests that Dumbledore knew that Harry would try to get the Stone.
The Saint had suggested that Dumbledore was trying to create a "spiritual Stone" with Harry. Mills was kind enough to explain what that meant. I do think the alchemical analogy does apply here, maybe I'll expand on it later. Dumbledore was giving Harry the knowledge and means he might need-- "Just in case" (the note with the returned cloak). I don't think Dumbledore knew that Harry was going to go after the Stone right then, but he hoped that Harry would turn out to be the type of person who would go after the Stone under those circumstances. Dumbledore was very pleased with Harry.
While I like Harry helping to win the Cup I feel sorry for Slytherin. Publicly hosed at the last minute.
Yeah, I did too. Why did Dumbledore do it that way? Is he just horribly insensitive? Or are we to assume that Slytherin deserved to have the Cup publicly snatched from their grasp? Ravenclaws and Hufflepuffs are said to be celebrating Slytherin's downfall, not Gryffindor's win. Hmm.
Percy is proud of Ron.
Percy does seem to like Ron, and care about him.
Neville's points are a very nice touch. Again he is grouped with the trio.
Neville gets points for standing up to to his friends. I think it important that Dumbledore recognizes the value of that. Loyalty is good, but blind loyalty is just plain stupid. Stand up for what you believe in, even in the face of your friends.
Other notes:
Quirrell found Snape's "swooping around like an overgrown bat" to be useful, since it distracted everyone from his activities. Was Snape acting on his own? He seems to have been trying to get something on Quirrell, maybe to take to Dumbledore. Dumbledore seems to have trusted Quirrell. Certainly Dumbledore didn't know about Voldemort under the turban.
I wonder where Snape was while Quirrellmort, Harry, et al, were all trying to get to the Stone.
Just how cursed is Quirrell? There's the DADA curse and it's nearing the end of the school year, plus there's the unicorn blood curse. You's think Voldy would expect something to go wrong....
Quirrell's hand blisters from touching Harry. Harry's scar burns.
Dumbledore did go to London, realized he should be at Hogwarts, and returned. I'm inclined to think the summons to London had been real. Dumbledore wouldn't have left if he "knew" Harry was going after the Stone, let alone confronting Voldemort.
Was Ron talking about Slytherin winning the House Cup after the Quidditch match, or the Quidditch Cup?
Hagrid: "Sent owls off ter all yer parents' old school friends, askin' fer photos...." Does that mean Lily's friends, too?! They do exist?! They disappear again after this.
House points. But for the points handed out at the feast, Slytherin would have still won the House Cup even if Gryffindor hadn't lost those 150 Norbert points.
Edit:
In your Room 7 comment you bring up the combatants but the test is the Mirror. If your other analyses are right, and its a good chance that they are, then, I think, its the Mirror that is the clue. --Steve Newton
You're right, of course. I was going to write something about the mirror, then just forgot. The mirror is a moral test, which is why Quirrell and Voldemort can't overcome it. I think Voldemort's evil selfishness will prove to be his weakness, and somehow be his undoing. We won't know for sure until book 7, though.
In Room 6 a Muggle born figured it out. Does this suggest that Hermione, a Muggle born, is right about the HBP? I don't remember everything that she said about him.
I wondered about that, too. Room 6 and book 6 have the strongest connection, IMO. But I don't see a correlation between who solved the other rooms and who was key in the books, so-- got me.
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TheSaint - May 4, 2006 1:07 am (#46 of 58)
The mirror shows Harry his family, the thing he wants most...does this not make Love the key to book 7? Loved the Quirrell connection..even more reason to believe Harry is a Horcrux (as I have for a very long time). Lovely detecting Ms. B!
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Steve Newton - May 4, 2006 4:18 am (#47 of 58)
For some reason I am reminded that the way to combat a boggart is to have more than one person and confuse the boggart. Perhaps if more than one person with the same heart's desire stood in front of the Mirror they would see the way to defeat Voldemort,
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journeymom - May 4, 2006 1:44 pm (#48 of 58)
"For some reason I am reminded that the way to combat a boggart is to have more than one person and confuse the boggart. Perhaps if more than one person with the same heart's desire stood in front of the Mirror they would see the way to defeat Voldemort, "
Oooo! I like that! And I love these analogies or connections between the rooms and the books.
About Hermione's comments about the HBP. In PS Hermione believes just like Harry and Ron that Snape is a bad guy. But eventually she's the one to... not defend Snape, but remind Harry that it wasn't Snape, it was Quirrell that tried to kill him. Snape actually saved him.
In HBP, Hermione at first not only doesn't trust this HBP person but gets the person's sex wrong. But then she goes to do some research and finds out there was an Eileen Prince who went to Hogwarts. While I don't remember the exact context, Harry says he hates Snape, and Hermione says 'hate' is a strong word.
My point is that in both instances (PS and HBP) Hermione starts out wrong about Snape, but then does what Hermione does best, does some research and analytical thinking, and concludes that there is more to Snape than they originally thought.
So Hermione was key in room 6, solving Snape's puzzle, and Hermione began the process of solving the mystery of Snape's true motives in book 6. Perhaps in book 7 she'll help Harry understand Snape better.
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Nathan Zimmermann - May 4, 2006 1:52 pm (#49 of 58)
In the literary symbolism thread Esther Rose, posted an interesting set of observations on the subject of inverses. Esther Rose, "+ A Treasure Hunt: Looking for Literary Symbolism in HBP" #826, 28 Apr 2006 7:01 am. In the post speculated on the image of Harry in the Mirror of Erised.
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Mrs Brisbee - May 5, 2006 7:40 am (#50 of 58)
Some great ideas about the Mirror of Erised. I think you are all right, and it is possible to predict a correlation between the Mirror and book 7 before the book comes out.
So Hermione was key in room 6, solving Snape's puzzle, and Hermione began the process of solving the mystery of Snape's true motives in book 6. --Journeymom
One thing that both baffled and drove me up a wall in HBP was Hermione's analysis of the Prince. First she implied that the Prince must be a Death Eater in the making-- on scant evidence, in my opinion. But Sectumsempra comes along, and they find out the Prince was actually Snape, who was a young Death Eater in the making. Then Hermione says, "I thought the Prince seemed to have a nasty sense of humor, but I would never have guessed he was a potential killer...." (HBP, Ch 30, "The White Tomb") I really thought the hilarious Sectumsmpra might of been a slight tip off about his potential! But then, that's just me. If we are supposed to take our cue from Hermione about Snape-- and it's possible we are-- then I've got a great feeling of disconnect between what Rowling has shown us about Snape and what Hermione is saying there.
So, anyway, I have a few questions and comments about alchemy. Elanor was kind enough to send me the paper she wrote, which clearly explains some aspects of the process and its symbolism.
Because this book is called Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone, and ends which Harry's acquisition of the Stone, it's not unreasonable to expect Rowling to use some alchemical symbolism in this book. -Here's the part of Elanor's paper that Mill's quoted earlier:
":There is not only one definition of alchemy but several. First, alchemists were searching for the Philosopher’s Stone, a transformational object used to transform base metals into silver and gold and also to provide universal medical cure for illnesses, “the Elixir of Life,” made thanks to the stone. But alchemy didn’t consist of laboratory work alone. It was also a personal quest as the Alchemists’ main aim was the ennoblement of the soul, symbolized by the ennoblement of the matter."
"So, the Philosopher’s stone is not only an object but also the symbol of the journey the alchemist made to obtain it. This journey was the true reward because it gave him knowledge (he was supposed to have understood the mysteries of Nature), hence wisdom, and made him a better human being. This is what the alchemists called “the philosophical gold”: their own spiritual transformation was the true gold sought, the real Philosopher’s Stone."
So Dumbledore is very pleased with Harry at the end-- even though the Stone might have been safer had it stayed in the mirror-- because Harry has made a journey and proven himself worthy of getting the Stone. Voldemort and Quirrell fail. Their greed and thirst for power prevents their enlightenment. The Philosopher's Stone seems to be something that protects the health of a body-- it makes the vessel that houses the soul "immortal" (you have to keep consuming the elixer of life or it stops working), and undoubtedly would have restored Voldemort's body. Later, in GoF, Voldemort "settles" for his old body back, and uses a Lesser Stone to get it (Peter=Rock=Stone, Pettigrew=Petty Grew), and Voldemort rewards Pettigrew with a silver hand-- the golden prize still eludes him.
I'm wondering about alchemical symbolism in the seven tests. We have the first step to making the Stone: the Black Process. The idea is to take a base metal and turn it into something precious. The important part is that although it has little value now, it has potential.
Next comes the White Process, at the end of which the Stone can turn base metal into silver, but not produce gold or longer life.
The last stage is the Red Process, which will transform the Stone into the true Philosopher's Stone, which can be used to make gold or the elixir of life.
We can see these alchemy colors played out in the tests-- though there is one part that confuses me. Presumably the heroes with potential start there journey in the dark, then they acquire the silver (white) key, which lets them proceed to the place they can transform from black to white-- the chessboard. They are the black pieces, but through sacrifice win, and the White King throws his white crown at Harry's feet. Okay, so now they've achieved white. But then the next color reference is the black flame Harry must go through. Why are we back on black?
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TheSaint - May 5, 2006 10:42 am (#51 of 58)
My understanding is to achieve the stone, the cycle must repeat, three times.
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Esther Rose - May 5, 2006 10:45 am (#52 of 58)
Hi Mrs. Brisbee,
I am by far not all that educated in the Alchemic Process but two things came into mind on why the door forward is black.
#1 The darkest hour is before dawn. We even saw this in HBP. Dumbledore was AK'd in the evening, not in broad daylight.
#2 Does the white process somehow involve having light from within. And the best way to see your own light from with in is to extinguish all other light. In other words, the knowledge gained from the whitening process needs to be internalized so that the alchemist is no longer dependant upon what the white process provided. This separation is needed to pass into the Rubedo Process no?
So the door could be black because at this stage Harry no longer needs a torch to pass, because Harry is the torch and is ready for the Rubedo process. I don't know if I said that right though. If I remember correctly, Harry felt "ice cold"(white no?) while passing through the black flames.
This all sounds like what Harry was thinking at the end of HBP doesn't it? EGADS!
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journeymom - May 5, 2006 12:29 pm (#53 of 58)
"I see a red door and I want it painted black."
Forgive me, this is apropos of nothing, it just came to mind because of Esther Rose's comment about black doors and because I've been listening to my "Rolling Stones: Forty Licks" cd everyday for a week now. I know nothing of alchemy.
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Mrs Brisbee - May 6, 2006 6:10 am (#54 of 58)
My understanding is to achieve the stone, the cycle must repeat, three times. --The Saint
That works if it's supposed to be B-W-B-W-B-W-R, but if it's supposed to be B-W-R-B-W-R-B-W-R, then I think we are missing some red.
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TheSaint - May 6, 2006 5:09 pm (#55 of 58)
Seven metals, seven metals, seven metals - stone... so, yes B-W-B-W-B-W-R.
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Mrs Brisbee - May 7, 2006 5:04 am (#56 of 58)
Okay, now it makes sense. Thanks for clearing that up!
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Steve Newton - May 9, 2006 10:17 am (#57 of 58)
When I was thinking about this read-along I was thinking about the immortal words of Hannibal Lecter. I wish that I could remember what they were but they were along the lines of 'look for the first causes.' This idea along with reading about JKR rewriting chapter 1 many times so as not to give too much away convinced me that the answers to most of the questions in the series are in this book. I plan on gong back and reread the entire read-along threads to see if I can discern the key themes and ideas. We have probably hit them but I want to see if an overview will bring some extra clarity to me.
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Mrs Brisbee - May 10, 2006 6:24 am (#58 of 58)
Good idea, Steve. I'd love to know what you find. I wasn't able to give the PS/SS read-along as much time and thought as I wanted to. I had planned to pay more attention to themes, and see which ones had their foundations in the first book.
I posted a lot of "unfinished thoughts" this time around. Things I knew meant something, but I couldn't quite figure it out all the way or express it clearly.
Steve Newton - Apr 11, 2006 10:16 am (#1 of 58)
Thanks, Denise. I agree, leaving one chapter at the end would seem to be odd.
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Steve Newton - Apr 12, 2006 10:44 am (#2 of 58)
Chapter 13-Nicolas Flamel
Harry dreams of Godric's Hollow. (At least it sounds like Godric's Hollow to me.)
Harry has fewer nightmares when he is tired.
Hermione is not good at chess.
Neville Bunny hops to the common room. Hermione removes the Leg-Locker Curse easily.
Neville doesn't think that he is brave enough for Gryffindor.
Neville is "worth twelve of Malfoy." Harry
Neville give Harry the card that solves the Flamel mystery.
Grindelwald gets another call.
The 12 uses of dragon's blood is mentioned just 1 page after Neville is said to be worth 12 times Malfoy. A connection?
Dumbledore is partners with Flamel.
"a bit of light reading" is done very well in the movie.
Only one Stone is know to exist. Could there be another?
Flamel is an opera lover.
Is Snape following Harry? Later this happens a lot.
Ron attacks Malfoy and Neville takes on Crabbe AND Goyle. Not brave enough my eye. Neville is a direct kind of guy.
Parvati is next to Hermione.
Ron has a nosebleed.
Why don't students scout out the Forest by broom more often?
Neville was knocked out.
I suspect that Fred and George didn't steal food from the kitchens. As we find out in a later book, GOF?, the house elves seem anxious to give food to students.
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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 12, 2006 12:52 pm (#3 of 58)
Neville is "worth twelve of Malfoy." Harry
Both Ron and Hermione give Neville good advice, but Harry gives him what he needs: value. Neville has poor self esteem and Harry lets him know that he is worth something (twelve Malfoys on the open market, to be exact).
We see that Hermione is a good friend to Neville, too. She is the only one who doesn't laugh at his predicament.
Dumbledore is partners with Flamel.
They are alchemy partners. So, what does an alchemist do in the Harry Potter Universe besides create Philosopher Stones? It's not a separate subject matter taught at Hogwarts, so I'm wondering what exactly alchemy is.
Also, Harry guesses that Flamel must have realized that someone was after his Stone. I wonder about the details of that, even though I know we will never get them.
Is Snape following Harry? Later this happens a lot.
I'd say yes. Harry also starts to think Snape can read minds.
Ron attacks Malfoy and Neville takes on Crabbe AND Goyle. Not brave enough my eye. Neville is a direct kind of guy.
Ron and Neville are comrades-in-arms here. Later Ron almost sounds like he is bragging about Neville's conduct.
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TheSaint - Apr 12, 2006 3:53 pm (#4 of 58)
Dumbledore was creating a stone: Harry is the stone.
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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 12, 2006 6:09 pm (#5 of 58)
Dumbledore was creating a stone: Harry is the stone. --TheSaint
Could you elaborate on your idea? The Stone granted its possessor riches and long life, and in the end Dumbledore said it wasn't such a wonderful thing. Those things make it hard for me to equate Harry with the Stone.
On another note, I'm getting confused by the House Cup and the Quidditch Cup. Slytherin has won the House Cup seven years running at this point, and this is the first time anyone has pulled ahead of them in House Points in all this time. House Points are given out for winning Quidditch games. I thought it was mentioned somewhere about how long it's been since anyone else has won the Quidditch Cup, but I can't find it. Every time anyone mentions Quidditch they seem to also talk about the House Cup, not the Quidditch Cup, so I keep confusing them.
Draco Malfoy jinxes Neville in the corridor because he can. Why does this sound familiar **coughJamescough**? A bit ironic that Draco ends up as Snape's favorite student.
Wood and the rest of the Gryffindor team are certain Snape will not be fair. Snape is horrible to Harry during Potions.
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TheSaint - Apr 12, 2006 8:58 pm (#6 of 58)
There is more than one side to alchemy. The spiritual side makes Philosophers Stones...via spiritual enlightenment.
The Quidditch Cup is awarded to the team that wins the most points during Quidditch games? The House cup is awarded to the House that gains the most points during the year through correct answers, cooperation, good deads and quidditch wins, to name a few.
I agree..that is ironic that the new school bully is Snape's favorite.
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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 13, 2006 7:03 am (#7 of 58)
There is more than one side to alchemy. The spiritual side makes Philosophers Stones...via spiritual enlightenment.
I'm afraid I don't know that much about alchemy in general, and nothing at all about spiritual alchemy. Can you tell me what the spiritual Philosopher's Stone is?
I've been trying to find out exactly what alchemists do, although the books I have are concerned mostly with it's practical side and spare only a few paragraphs on it. It is the study of chemicals and metals, sort of wizarding chemistry, I guess.
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K Stahl - Apr 13, 2006 8:15 pm (#8 of 58)
Alchemy was the precursor to the science of chemistry. It was primitive chemistry at its most rudimentary level. Eventually enough observations were made and recorded so that a science was born and alchemy became a thing of fantasy. Dmitri Mendeleev did not publish his periodic table of 63 known elements until 1869.
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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 14, 2006 5:40 am (#9 of 58)
Right. So Dumbledore is the Wizarding World equivalent of a noted chemist.
I wonder why the subject isn't taught at Hogwarts?
Edit: Aren't chemists the U.K. equivalent of the U.S. pharmacist? Is a science chemist still a chemist?
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azi - Apr 14, 2006 9:00 am (#10 of 58)
Mrs Brisbee - sometimes they are called chemists, sometimes they are Pharmacies (as in the place you visit to get your medicines)! We call the people who serve you Pharmacists rather than chemists, I think. Science chemists are also still chemists.
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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 14, 2006 11:37 am (#11 of 58)
Thanks for clearing that up for me, Azi. I just wanted to be sure I was saying what I thought I was saying.
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Amilia Smith - Apr 14, 2006 5:54 pm (#12 of 58)
Mrs. Brisbee, Elanor presented a paper on Alchemy at Accio. She has been very gracious in sending it out to anyone who asks to read it. I have had trouble following the Alchemy Thread at times, but I found her paper very understandable and easy to read. This is what she says about Spiritual Alchemy:
There is not only one definition of alchemy but several. First, alchemists were searching for the Philosopher’s Stone, a transformational object used to transform base metals into silver and gold and also to provide universal medical cure for illnesses, “the Elixir of Life,” made thanks to the stone. But alchemy didn’t consist of laboratory work alone. It was also a personal quest as the Alchemists’ main aim was the ennoblement of the soul, symbolized by the ennoblement of the matter.
So, the Philosopher’s stone is not only an object but also the symbol of the journey the alchemist made to obtain it. This journey was the true reward because it gave him knowledge (he was supposed to have understood the mysteries of Nature), hence wisdom, and made him a better human being. This is what the alchemists called “the philosophical gold”: their own spiritual transformation was the true gold sought, the real Philosopher’s Stone. The symbol of this alchemical journey can be very rich when applied to Harry’s, and to other characters’, transformation in the books.
End quote.
If you want to read the rest of the paper, I'm sure Elanor would be willing to send it to you.
Mills.
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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 15, 2006 6:03 am (#13 of 58)
Thank you, Mills, for the quoting Elanor's enlightening explanation for a Spiritual Philosopher's Stone. Maybe I'll ask her for the paper after Easter.
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Steve Newton - Apr 17, 2006 10:28 am (#14 of 58)
Chapter 14-Norbert the Norwegian Ridgeback
Hogwarts has Easter holidays. I don't think we actually ever see them.
The 12 uses of dragon's blood is brought up again. It seems that the students are taught them in the first year.
Hagrid has a moleskin coat.
"rabbitin' about it in here" I don't know this expression. Is it common in England?
Ron shows pretty good initiative in checking for Hagrid's books. He also seems to to have a pretty good grasp of wizarding history and law.
Malfoy overhears the trio talking about the egg. In HBP he also overhears them and gets valuable information. Any other times?
Why does Draco wait to tell?
Ron's dragon bit turns green.
Hagrid is referred to as Mommy twice.
Harry seems pretty lax about taking care of the Invisibility Cloak.
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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 17, 2006 1:03 pm (#15 of 58)
Ron shows pretty good initiative in checking for Hagrid's books. He also seems to to have a pretty good grasp of wizarding history and law.
Ron is often shown to be sensible and intelligent. Sometimes this gets overshadowed by his goofiness and so-so grades, but he really is a smart kid.
Why does Draco wait to tell?
I wondered about this too. I think if he had told immediately, the only one who he was sure would be in trouble would have been Hagrid. Draco wanted to get the trio into trouble, so he waited until the time was right, and the trio would be the ones caught with the dragon. He probably was the one to tip off Filch. I'm not sure why Draco was foolish enough to get himself caught wandering the corridors, though. Maybe he couldn't resist hiding nearby in the hopes of seeing them caught.
Ron's dragon bit turns green.
Creature bites are a bad thing to get in the Wizarding World. Fluffy's bite seems to have been resistant to magical healing. Werewolf bites are cursed. Nagini's bite has a venom that thwarts healing also. Even with all that magic, wizards are still vulnerable to creatures.
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Choices - Apr 17, 2006 1:46 pm (#16 of 58)
Remember that Draco went up to get a book from Ron (in the hospital wing) and there was the note in the book telling when Charlie's friends were coming to get Norbert? I think this was the evidence Draco needed to get Harry and Hermione in trouble. I agree it was not Hagrid he was after that time.
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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 17, 2006 2:09 pm (#17 of 58)
The importance of family and friends seems to be a strong theme in the book.
One thing that impresses me this chapter is the lengths that the trio go to help out their friend, Hagrid.
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Steve Newton - Apr 17, 2006 7:05 pm (#18 of 58)
Yes. The love theme is definitely there.
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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 19, 2006 6:01 am (#19 of 58)
Ron's dragon bit turns green.-- Steve Newton
So Ron gets a green hand, which he complains feels like it is going to fall off. In other books Wormtail got a silver hand, and Dumbledore a black one.
One other thing worth noting, I think, is that Quirrell is counted amongst the teachers trustworthy enough to help protect the stone. So Dumbledore trusted Quirrell.
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Steve Newton - Apr 19, 2006 10:46 am (#20 of 58)
Chapter 15-The Forbidden Forest
More alliteration.
"Things couldn't have been worse." Wanna bet?
Why is the Astronomy Tower off limits? In HBP we find out that the Bloody Baron hangs out there.
Hermione was "as still as a statue." Foreshadowing of COS. Possibly a reference to Winter's Tale, by Shakespeare in which a character named Hermione is turned into a statue. I wish I knew more about the play.
Neville, unwittingly, sacrifices himself to protect Harry and Hermione.
Harry seems to get almost all of the blame for the lost points.
The other houses are united against Slytherin.
Do we ever actually see the House Cup?
At Quidditch practice Harry loses his name name and is just "The Seeker."
Detentions always seem to run very late into the night.
Werewolves are mentioned as as being in the Forest. The only one we have seen there is Lupin.
Filch and Hagrid don't seem to get along.
Hagrid-Nothing in the forest will hurt them if they're "with me or fang."
Is this Harry's first scar pain?
"If you're going to be cursed forever, death's better, isn't it?" Not everyone seems to agree.
It sounds as if Harry's death was foretold for this night.
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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 19, 2006 1:09 pm (#21 of 58)
Do we ever actually see the House Cup? --Steve Newton
I don't know. I can't remember it actually ever being physically described as present. Did Ron see it in the Mirror of Erised?
At Quidditch practice Harry loses his name and is just "The Seeker."
Ooh, I'd missed this reference when reading the chapter. Interesting that Harry loses his personal identity but keeps his job title. Names do seem important.
Filch and Hagrid don't seem to get along.
Filch even calls Hagrid an oaf when speaking to the kids!
Is this Harry's first scar pain?
The only other time so far was at the Start of Term Feast. Harry has been able to go the whole year without any other incidences. Why?
It sounds as if Harry's death was foretold for this night.
The centaurs do seem to foresee Harry's death. Bane is against giving any help to Harry. Ronan though argues that Firenze thought he was acting for the best, so for Ronan and Firenze at least one can choose to take action.
My notes on Chapter 15:
McGonagall says: "It doesn't take a genius to work it out." But then she gets it wrong. She'll go with a plausible untrue scenario rather than accept the implausible true one.
150 is a lot of points to lose.
Why are the House points counted by giant hourglasses? Hourglasses are usually used to measure time. Any ideas?
Harry won't go to Dumbledore with his suspicions because he has no hard proof. I wonder if Snape is in the same boat with his suspicions of Quirrell.
Ron wants to keep investigating. He's the only one who wasn't caught, though, and the other two want to keep their heads down.
Hagrid to Filch: ".... "'Snot your place ter do that...." 'Snot sure looks funny on the page.
Draco and Hagrid square off. Hagrid is sure Draco's family would accept the way things are done at Hogwarts, and back up the school. Draco has always disdained Hagrid, but this is probably the moment he decides he hates him, too.
Green sparks for something found, red sparks for danger.
Ronan is another character associated with red. The red centaur announces the Red Planet: "Mars is bright tonight." Black Bane tells Hagrid the same thing.
Malfoy scares Neville, and Neville sends up sparks. Hagrid then does a switch, swapping Harry for Neville. Probably the right choice, but I can't help but think that if Hagrid had taken Draco instead, Neville would have had the good sense to send up red sparks when he encountered real trouble-- something neither Harry nor Draco manage to do.
Why does Quirrellmort flee from Firenze? Wrong time for a fight? Afraid more of the herd was nearby?
Firenze knows that the Stone is hidden at the school. He knows that it is Voldemort in the forest. He knows Voldemort plans to get the Stone. Knowledgeable guy, Firenze.
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haymoni - Apr 19, 2006 1:12 pm (#22 of 58)
Strange that Hagrid swaps Harry for Neville.
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Steve Newton - Apr 19, 2006 1:55 pm (#23 of 58)
I had noticed the swap but not really thought about it. I suspect that it is important.
I recall Ron seeing the Quidditch Cup. Not sure about the House Cup. I decided to check and in chapter 12 Ron says the he sees himself holding both cups. No descriptions given.
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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 20, 2006 6:07 am (#24 of 58)
Steve, why the interest in the House Cup? I don't think it could be a Horcrux, unless Voldemort could somehow transfigure the Hufflepuff Cup and swap them. Unlikely, but there would be a nice irony in having the Cup so highly sought in the first book be the one they need to find in the last....
I'm off on a mini-vacation, so I won't be posting for the next few days.
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Steve Newton - Apr 20, 2006 6:52 am (#25 of 58)
The House Cup just seems to be something that comes up fairly often and I was curious. You're right, it probably isn't a profitable trail to follow.
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Steve Newton - Apr 24, 2006 6:03 am (#26 of 58)
Sorry to be lollygagging but I can't find my book. I'll give it another go tonight. It has to be somewhere.
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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 24, 2006 8:06 am (#27 of 58)
I just got back anyway, and need to read the chapter (and first find my book).
The House Cup just seems to be something that comes up fairly often and I was curious. You're right, it probably isn't a profitable trail to follow.
I like Choice's idea that the trophy room is important. It would make a most excellent place to hide the Hufflepuff Cup, a founder's object which is likely what allows Voldemort to interfere with the DADA professor's contract. The House Cup does come up a lot, and curiously we the readers have never actually seen it, but it does seem very unlikely the two cups could be the same.
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Steve Newton - Apr 26, 2006 10:53 am (#28 of 58)
I finally found it.
Chapter 16-Through the Trap Door
More alliteration.
"While they tried to remember how to make a Forgetfulness Potion." I love it.
Harry is having nightmares. A hooded figure dripping blood.
Harry is thinking about Voldemort visiting in his dreams. Is he?
I think that at least one of these History of Magic topics will be important. Which? No idea.
The Giant Squid and Dumbledore is no where around. AHA!
Dumbledore's office seems to be where he lives.
"I'm never going over to the Dark Side.!" Harry
Harry finds out that a team works together. All must go on. In OOTP this lesson will be repeated.
Hermione turns to her books for help.
Trevor looks "as though he'd been making another bid for freedom." I wish that I could figure Trevor out.
Neville tries to stop the trio. "Don't call me an idiot.!"
Harry turns to Hermione for help with Neville.
Mrs. Norris-lamplike eyes.
Harry seems to do a good imitation of the Bloody Baron. Does he ever speak to anyone?
Fluffy seems to be a formidable obstacle. Are we sure that Snape was bitten by Fluffy?
The plant does seem to be a weak defense.
Did they really drop "miles under the school"? Must be hyperbole.
"Are you a witch or not?" Great line.
Catching the key-probably difficult for an average wizard. Good spotting and flying needed. Seeker skills.
Winged key=Winky?
The white chessmen have no faces. No word on the black chessmen.
Ron takes instant command of the chess situation.
"I'm going to be a knight." Ron. The role that I see him in for the last book. Hermione is a castle, also called a rook. Harry is a bishop. Isn't a rook also a crow?
Harry moves 7 total spaces. 4 to the right and 3 to the left. 7 books? 7 soul bits?
"Every time one of their men was lost, the white pieces showed no mercy." That's how I'd call it.
Ron has to be taken.
"You've got to make some sacrifices." Ron
The chess task seems pretty tough.
The troll seems to be doable but tough for an average wizard.
Hermione, the Muggle born, solves the riddle. I think that a wizard would have a real problem with this.
The potions are like ice.
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TheSaint - Apr 26, 2006 4:11 pm (#29 of 58)
SN - Harry is thinking about Voldemort visiting in his dreams. Is he?
Sounds more like Harry is visiting Voldemort.
SN - I wish that I could figure Trevor out. You and me both!
SN - "I'm going to be a knight." Ron Harry is a bishop. You know..i have always wondered. Seems in some grail tales the hero comes to the castle and meets the Red Knight outside, who is supposed to be the hero, but battles him and takes his cloak. I always thought of Ron as the red Knight.
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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 26, 2006 6:21 pm (#30 of 58)
Harry finds out that a team works together. All must go on. In OOTP this lesson will be repeated. --Steve Newton
Right. I loved how Ron and Hermione won't let Harry go alone: "How do you think you'd get the Stone without us?..."
The plant does seem to be a weak defense.
Well, maybe. A devil's snare did kill Bode in OotP, and no one at St. Mungo's noticed the dangerous plant(And Healers need a Herbology NEWT)! I think your point that many of the obstacles are only effective against an average wizard is good. Fluffy was definitely formidable, though. Both Flitwick's and McGonagall's tests tried skill rather than magical ability. Snape's tested logic. But Dumbledore's tested morals, and was really the only obstacles that could stump Voldemort. Nothing in any of the other obstacles would specifically challenge someone solely because they were evil.
"You've got to make some sacrifices." Ron
I must say, Ron shows tactical brilliance, and he's really, really, really brave. Tactical thinking is weighing out what you will gain versus what you will lose, and then acting on it knowing full well what will happen. Harry is more a look-before-you-leap kind of guy.
SN - Harry is thinking about Voldemort visiting in his dreams. Is he?
Sounds more like Harry is visiting Voldemort. --TheSaint
Hmm. Never occured to me that Harry could be actually seeing Voldy in his dreams. Harry does complain that his scar hurts much of the time. And it might tie into his earlier dream. Now I need to reread that part....
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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 26, 2006 6:53 pm (#31 of 58)
Some other notes:
Harry believes his scar warns him about danger. Is the pain growing stronger because the unicorn blood has made Voldemort stronger?
Neville will never be playing Quidditch for England!
Dumbledore doesn't know about Hagrid's slip. Harry resolves to do the smart thing and go to Dumbledore. So far Harry has told no one other than Ron and Hermione that he met Voldemort in the forest. Does Firenze communicate with Dumbledore?
McGonagall gives Harry the brush off. Why didn't she hear him out?
The MoM note was probably legit. Fudge was always asking Dumbledore's advice. If a fake note was sent, Dumbledore might have Apparated to London, and then returned two minutes later once he found out it was a trick. I think Quirrelmort was biding his time until Dumbledore was called away from the school.
Snape warns off Harry. Which brings up the question, Where was Snape when everything was happening later in the evening?
Harry has the right priorities: "Do you think he'll leave you and your families alone if Gryffindor wins the House Cup?"
The Stone's protections have a lot of threes and sevens.
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Steve Newton - Apr 28, 2006 11:26 am (#32 of 58)
Edited Apr 28, 2006 12:44 pm
I'll be busy for most of the weekend so I thought I'd post this now.
Chapter 17-The Man With Two Faces
As Nathan has pointed out elsewhere this is a possible Janus Reference.
On my first reading I was very surprised by Quirrell.
Quirrell's laugh is "cold and sharp."
Snape's counter curse had saved Harry. According to Quirrell.
I wonder if the Mirror is the key to defeating Voldemort.
Voldemort-"chalk white with glaring red eyes and slits for nostrils, like a snake." "Mere shadow and vapor."
"Better save your own life and join me..." Perhaps what Voldemort had said to Lily.
"His head felt like it was about to split in two." A Horcrux hint?
It bothers me that Harry has the Stone that makes the elixir of life, Dumbledore who know how to use it, and he miraculously survives. A little part of me says that Harry died here and bounced back.
How did the Word get out? Who told?
"They have enough Elixir left to set their affairs in order." It sounds like what Dumbledore was doing in HBP.
"Always use the proper name for things." Dumbledore. In OOTP he calls him Riddle. Why the change?
Truth "should therefore be treated with a great deal of caution."-Dumbledore
Dumbledore admits that he won't be forthright.
Harry tells Ron and Hermione everything. Like in HBP.
Ron suggests that Dumbledore knew that Harry would try to get the Stone.
Does Hagrid ever drink again? POA Christmas dinner?
While I like Harry helping to win the Cup I feel sorry for Slytherin. Publicly hosed at the last minute.
Percy is proud of Ron.
Neville's points are a very nice touch. Again he is grouped with the trio.
It is Harry's best evening.
Trevor is found in the toilets. Probably not Myrtle's.
It looks as if they leave Hogwarts in the boats. I can't tell if this is just the first years or not.
Harry remembers to thank Molly.
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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 28, 2006 11:48 am (#33 of 58)
"His head felt like it was about to split in two." A Horcrux hint?
Oooo, good catch! I wonder how many other times his headaches are described like that?
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Nathan Zimmermann - Apr 28, 2006 2:48 pm (#34 of 58)
Here is the post on Janus that Steve referred to earlier.Nathan Zimmermann, "+ The Use of Mythology In HP" #, 23 Feb 2005 12:13 pm
The reference to Harry's head being split in two reminds me of the birth of Athena.
In ancient Greek mythology Athena, the goddess of wisdom was the daughter of Zeus and the Titaness, Metis, who was associated with divine wisdom. During the course of her pregnancy. Themis the goddess of justice prophesied that if Metis gave birth to a boy. The child would become powerful enough to overthrow Zeus, much in the same way that both his father Coronus and his grandfather Uranus had been overthrown. Fear this Zeus consumed Metis. While, imprisoned set work fashioning the arms armor for Athena. The work of Metis caused to Zeus complain of a headache and he ordered Hephaestus to smite him on the head. Hephaestus duly complied and the myths assert that Athena sprang forth fully mature, and armed for battle.
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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 28, 2006 3:58 pm (#35 of 58)
That's a cool story about the birth of Athena, Nathan. I wonder if that hammer blow left a scar?
Wasn't Zeus's symbol a lightning bolt?
Speaking of lightning bolts, I finally got around to reading The Hero With A Thousand Faces, and Joseph Campbell had an interesting footnote about the symbolic meaning of the lightning bolt. Of course, I've had to return the book to the library so I don't have it to reference anymore, but basically the lightning bolt was often used by warrior gods to symbolize enlightened prowess. Not sure if I can explain it clearly. The power is in what the warrior knows, and in his skill, not in the sword he holds. He could throw all his weapons and armor away, and still be just as powerful because he still has his knowledge. That's what the lightning bolt symbolizes.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Apr 28, 2006 7:46 pm (#36 of 58)
Mrs B., chief weapons of Zeus were the thunderbolt,and the lightning bolt.
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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 29, 2006 5:48 am (#37 of 58)
Thank you.
My last post was an incomplete thought. I wanted to say at the end of it that then Voldemort is foolish for tearing and removing pieces if his soul, because the soul is the seat of enlightenment. He gets to keep all his magical power, but he can only use it in a less and less enlightened way with each lost soulbit. He has diminished himself, and moves closer and closer to things like magic portraits, that have no soul and can only repeat catchphrases, stuck in time, and never capable of growth. It's funny then, that Voldemort gives the lightning bolt to Harry.
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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 29, 2006 7:09 am (#38 of 58)
Edited Apr 29, 2006 8:28 am
One problem I'm having with these final chapters is that there is almost too much good stuff to note in them. Steve Newton had a bunch of good points and interesting questions from chapter 16 that I didn't even touch. Again with chapter 17. I've got a lot here to catch up on. But alas, no time right now.
Isn't a rook also a crow? --Steve Newton, notes on chapter 16
I Wikapedia'ed rook, because they are not a North American bird. They hang out in the U.K. and other European countries. I thought they were like ravens. Turns out rooks belong to the same family as crows and ravens, and like them, are noted for their intelligence, curiosity, and mischeviousness. I think Hermione being a rook was an oblique reference to her Ravenclaw-like intelligence. The rook in chess is considered the second most powerful piece, after the queen. Knights and bishops come after the rook. But then, we also know that power is second to how you use it. Hermione calls Harry a great wizard-- not because he has outstanding magical ability, but because of what he chooses to do.
Edit:
Lol, I've just realized a few things.
Harry moves 7 total spaces. 4 to the right and 3 to the left. 7 books? 7 soul bits? --Steve Newton, on chapter 16
First, I missed that 7 reference on my read through. Good catch, Steve! Second, Harry is moving to the right and left. The bishop is zigzagging around the board, like a lightning bolt. Duh, why didn't I notice that before? Third, instead of going forward 4 and then 3 squares, he goes right 4, and then left 3. Of course the bishop has made lot's of other moves, but this is symbolic, and symbolically where does that put the bishop? It depends on whether Harry started with the bishop to the right or left of the king and queen. The possibilities are the knight's row, the queen's row, or the king's row (row, or rank? can't keep them straight). I'm rooting for the king's row. Of course, his move checkmate's the white king. That's not the same as taking the king, is it?
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Nathan Zimmermann - Apr 29, 2006 9:26 am (#39 of 58)
Mrs. B., this is what the website of the United States Chess Federation say on the matter of checkmate.
The main goal of chess is to checkmate your opponent's King. The King is not actually captured and removed from the board like other pieces. But if the King is attacked ("checked") and threatened with capture, it must get out of check immediately. If there is no way to get out of check, the position is a "checkmate," and the side that is checkmated loses.
([You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
The concept of checkmate is intriguing as it does not in the modern sense imply the death of the king only his defeat. As Dumbledore pointed out while, dueling with Tom Riddle in the DoM there are things worse than death.
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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 29, 2006 9:28 am (#40 of 58)
So Harry (or anyone else on his team) cannot ever occupy the same square as the white king, which is fitting given the moral failings of Voldemort. Harry wouldn't want to go there anyway.
Forget my third point. Symbolically Harry ends up in the Queen's row, since black starts with the queen fourth from its left side. It's white would have the king fourth from its left, since the king and queen stand across from their opposite numbers. The queen (originally a vizier), though, is the most powerful piece
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Mrs Brisbee - May 2, 2006 6:00 am (#41 of 58)
I started this ages ago and never finished it. This is what I got. I was going to look up all the mythological connections in more depth, but didn't get around to it.
Room No.1
Door: To the third (3) floor corridor.
Obstacle: Fluffy, the giant three-headed(3) dog.
Test: Finding a way to circumnavigate the monstrous dog. Not even powerful wizards like Snape and Quirrell could deal with it directly.
Solved: Harry.
Myth: Cerberus was the monstrous three-headed dog that guarded the gates of Hades, making sure the living didn’t enter, and the dead did not leave. Here is another gate reference that ties in nicely with Janus.
Room No.2
Door: Wooden trapdoor.
Obstacle: Devil’s Snare.
Test: Knowledge of Herbology. Ability to remain calm in the face of danger. (I can’t help but note that the ability to produce heat and light under duress is the same ability needed to ward off Inferi).
Solved: Hermione figures it out, but it takes Harry and Ron to keep her calm enough to do something about it.
Myth: “Devil” being the inhabitant of the underworld, appropriate to meet just the other side of Fluffy. There are many myths of heroes going into the underworld to try to retrieve someone who has died. The trio and Quirrellmort are all after the Stone that promises long life. Voldemort is undertaking the journey to restore himself, the trio to stop him.
Room No.3
Door: No door. Instead a long, stone corridor that leads down.
Obstacle: A door with a silver lock that can only be opened by finding amongst the hundreds of flying keys the silver key, and catching it.
Test: Visual acuity, physical agility.
Solved: Ron figures out what to do, Harry’s Quidditch skill gets the key, with a little flying help from Ron and Hermione.
Myth: ?
Room No.4:
Door: Door with silver lock.
Obstacle: Giant chess game.
Test: Knowledge of chess, tactical thinking.
Solved: Ron.
Myth:? It takes 7 steps forward for a chessman to reach the opposite end of the board. Harry moves 4 and then 3, for a total of 7 spaces.
Room No.5
Door: Need to go through two doors to get to the room.
Obstacle: A large troll. This is the obstacle placed by Quirrell, and it is the only obstacle that Quirrellmort has removed.
Test: The trio actually proved their ability to overcome trolls ages ago.
Solved: No need
Myth: ? Trolls are often guardians of bridges and castles in fairy tales. The only one I can think of offhand is Billy Goat’s Bluff.
Room No.6
Door: Plain door entering, purple flame to go back.
Obstacle: The Potions Puzzle.
Test: Logic. Perfect for Hermione, baffling for Harry.
Solved: Hermione.
Myth: ?
Room No.7
Door: Black flame.
Obstacle: Quirrellmort and the Mirror of Erised.
Test: Moral. Voldemort and Quirrell cannot overcome this test, but Harry can.
Solved: Harry.
Myth: Janus, the Roman god of gates and doors. One face looks forward, the other behind. One represents sunrise, the beginning, and the other sunset, the end. In times of war, the doors of his temple are thrown open. In times of peace, they are closed.
Ron solves one puzzle on his own-- the chessboard room-- and Hermione does one--the potion puzzle. Harry solves the first and last rooms on his own-- except he needs to be rescued by Dumbledore at the end, so he's not ready for the Voldemort obstacle. It definitely took all of them to reach the end. No one of them could have done it on their own.
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Steve Newton - May 2, 2006 6:05 pm (#42 of 58)
Well done Mrs. B!
Do you connect each test to one of the books?
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Mrs Brisbee - May 3, 2006 5:47 am (#43 of 58)
I think it's almost too easy to connect up each room to the books in order (except for 7, because the book isn't written yet). Coincidence? The miracle of hindsight? I don't know. The similarities are there, though let me be the first to admit they don't impart any depth or reveal any hitherto unsuspected plot elements in the books
Room 1) The power of three. Fluffy equals the trio. Both are guardians of the gate between life and death; the Trio actually takes on Cerberus's role when they go to protect the Stone from being stolen.
Room 2) Danger lurks under the school, and Ginny falls into the snare of the "Devil" (Tom Riddle).
Room 3) The elusive silver key. The elusive silver Patronus, the key to understanding that the love we are given will stay with us forever, and is a powerful strength.
Room 4) The big chessboard. The Triwizard Tournament. Harry takes the White King, Harry beats Voldemort..
Room 5) Troll. Umbridge. A foul guardian that needs to be removed. Works for me.
Room 6) The riddle of the Potion Master. The two possible solutions, because we are missing key information that would let us know for sure.
Room 7) We know Harry and Voldy will confront each other again, so this one is a no brainer. If Harry does turn out to be a Horcrux, than Voldy growing out of Quirrell's head would take on more significant meaning.
It might be superficial, but I think the connections are there.
I'll finally get my notes on chapter 17 up later today.
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Steve Newton - May 3, 2006 7:29 am (#44 of 58)
In your Room 7 comment you bring up the combatants but the test is the Mirror. If your other analyses are right, and its a good chance that they are, then, I think, its the Mirror that is the clue.
In Room 6 a Muggle born figured it out. Does this suggest that Hermione, a Muggle born, is right about the HBP? I don't remember everything that she said about him.
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Mrs Brisbee - May 3, 2006 8:05 am (#45 of 58)
Chapter 17-The Man With Two Faces
Snape's counter curse had saved Harry. According to Quirrell. --Steve Newton
This cleared up several things for me. Quirrell states unequivocally that he was trying to kill Harry. I'd wondered, since it was an unlikely and risky means to commit murder. Had it worked at once, it might have gone down as a flying accident. But why stubbornly keep at it once Snape started the countercurse? Oh, okay, plot reasons.
I wonder if the Mirror is the key to defeating Voldemort.
Maybe the metaphorical key.
"His head felt like it was about to split in two." A Horcrux hint?
Love this one.
It bothers me that Harry has the Stone that makes the elixir of life, Dumbledore who know how to use it, and he miraculously survives. A little part of me says that Harry died here and bounced back.
I don't think the Stone can return the dead to life. Though if the Stone could save Harry's life (him not being quite dead yet), I'm sure Dumbledore would have used it. Why not?
"Always use the proper name for things." Dumbledore. In OOTP he calls him Riddle. Why the change?
Hmmm. "Voldemort" is a name and persona Tom Riddle created for himself, with the intent that the mere mention of the name would inspire fear. I think Dumbledore just doesn't want Harry to buy into that, because it gives Voldy power he doesn't deserve. Most of the Wizarding World knows about Voldemort, so that's the name Harry is most likely to encounter in the next few years. Dumbledore also isn't ready to explain Tom Riddle.
Dumbledore admits that he won't be forthright.
He promises he won't lie to Harry. I base a lot of what I assume to be true in the series on the assumption that he continues to keep this promise through all the books. He will withhold information and mislead Harry, but not lie.
Ron suggests that Dumbledore knew that Harry would try to get the Stone.
The Saint had suggested that Dumbledore was trying to create a "spiritual Stone" with Harry. Mills was kind enough to explain what that meant. I do think the alchemical analogy does apply here, maybe I'll expand on it later. Dumbledore was giving Harry the knowledge and means he might need-- "Just in case" (the note with the returned cloak). I don't think Dumbledore knew that Harry was going to go after the Stone right then, but he hoped that Harry would turn out to be the type of person who would go after the Stone under those circumstances. Dumbledore was very pleased with Harry.
While I like Harry helping to win the Cup I feel sorry for Slytherin. Publicly hosed at the last minute.
Yeah, I did too. Why did Dumbledore do it that way? Is he just horribly insensitive? Or are we to assume that Slytherin deserved to have the Cup publicly snatched from their grasp? Ravenclaws and Hufflepuffs are said to be celebrating Slytherin's downfall, not Gryffindor's win. Hmm.
Percy is proud of Ron.
Percy does seem to like Ron, and care about him.
Neville's points are a very nice touch. Again he is grouped with the trio.
Neville gets points for standing up to to his friends. I think it important that Dumbledore recognizes the value of that. Loyalty is good, but blind loyalty is just plain stupid. Stand up for what you believe in, even in the face of your friends.
Other notes:
Quirrell found Snape's "swooping around like an overgrown bat" to be useful, since it distracted everyone from his activities. Was Snape acting on his own? He seems to have been trying to get something on Quirrell, maybe to take to Dumbledore. Dumbledore seems to have trusted Quirrell. Certainly Dumbledore didn't know about Voldemort under the turban.
I wonder where Snape was while Quirrellmort, Harry, et al, were all trying to get to the Stone.
Just how cursed is Quirrell? There's the DADA curse and it's nearing the end of the school year, plus there's the unicorn blood curse. You's think Voldy would expect something to go wrong....
Quirrell's hand blisters from touching Harry. Harry's scar burns.
Dumbledore did go to London, realized he should be at Hogwarts, and returned. I'm inclined to think the summons to London had been real. Dumbledore wouldn't have left if he "knew" Harry was going after the Stone, let alone confronting Voldemort.
Was Ron talking about Slytherin winning the House Cup after the Quidditch match, or the Quidditch Cup?
Hagrid: "Sent owls off ter all yer parents' old school friends, askin' fer photos...." Does that mean Lily's friends, too?! They do exist?! They disappear again after this.
House points. But for the points handed out at the feast, Slytherin would have still won the House Cup even if Gryffindor hadn't lost those 150 Norbert points.
Edit:
In your Room 7 comment you bring up the combatants but the test is the Mirror. If your other analyses are right, and its a good chance that they are, then, I think, its the Mirror that is the clue. --Steve Newton
You're right, of course. I was going to write something about the mirror, then just forgot. The mirror is a moral test, which is why Quirrell and Voldemort can't overcome it. I think Voldemort's evil selfishness will prove to be his weakness, and somehow be his undoing. We won't know for sure until book 7, though.
In Room 6 a Muggle born figured it out. Does this suggest that Hermione, a Muggle born, is right about the HBP? I don't remember everything that she said about him.
I wondered about that, too. Room 6 and book 6 have the strongest connection, IMO. But I don't see a correlation between who solved the other rooms and who was key in the books, so-- got me.
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TheSaint - May 4, 2006 1:07 am (#46 of 58)
The mirror shows Harry his family, the thing he wants most...does this not make Love the key to book 7? Loved the Quirrell connection..even more reason to believe Harry is a Horcrux (as I have for a very long time). Lovely detecting Ms. B!
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Steve Newton - May 4, 2006 4:18 am (#47 of 58)
For some reason I am reminded that the way to combat a boggart is to have more than one person and confuse the boggart. Perhaps if more than one person with the same heart's desire stood in front of the Mirror they would see the way to defeat Voldemort,
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journeymom - May 4, 2006 1:44 pm (#48 of 58)
"For some reason I am reminded that the way to combat a boggart is to have more than one person and confuse the boggart. Perhaps if more than one person with the same heart's desire stood in front of the Mirror they would see the way to defeat Voldemort, "
Oooo! I like that! And I love these analogies or connections between the rooms and the books.
About Hermione's comments about the HBP. In PS Hermione believes just like Harry and Ron that Snape is a bad guy. But eventually she's the one to... not defend Snape, but remind Harry that it wasn't Snape, it was Quirrell that tried to kill him. Snape actually saved him.
In HBP, Hermione at first not only doesn't trust this HBP person but gets the person's sex wrong. But then she goes to do some research and finds out there was an Eileen Prince who went to Hogwarts. While I don't remember the exact context, Harry says he hates Snape, and Hermione says 'hate' is a strong word.
My point is that in both instances (PS and HBP) Hermione starts out wrong about Snape, but then does what Hermione does best, does some research and analytical thinking, and concludes that there is more to Snape than they originally thought.
So Hermione was key in room 6, solving Snape's puzzle, and Hermione began the process of solving the mystery of Snape's true motives in book 6. Perhaps in book 7 she'll help Harry understand Snape better.
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Nathan Zimmermann - May 4, 2006 1:52 pm (#49 of 58)
In the literary symbolism thread Esther Rose, posted an interesting set of observations on the subject of inverses. Esther Rose, "+ A Treasure Hunt: Looking for Literary Symbolism in HBP" #826, 28 Apr 2006 7:01 am. In the post speculated on the image of Harry in the Mirror of Erised.
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Mrs Brisbee - May 5, 2006 7:40 am (#50 of 58)
Some great ideas about the Mirror of Erised. I think you are all right, and it is possible to predict a correlation between the Mirror and book 7 before the book comes out.
So Hermione was key in room 6, solving Snape's puzzle, and Hermione began the process of solving the mystery of Snape's true motives in book 6. --Journeymom
One thing that both baffled and drove me up a wall in HBP was Hermione's analysis of the Prince. First she implied that the Prince must be a Death Eater in the making-- on scant evidence, in my opinion. But Sectumsempra comes along, and they find out the Prince was actually Snape, who was a young Death Eater in the making. Then Hermione says, "I thought the Prince seemed to have a nasty sense of humor, but I would never have guessed he was a potential killer...." (HBP, Ch 30, "The White Tomb") I really thought the hilarious Sectumsmpra might of been a slight tip off about his potential! But then, that's just me. If we are supposed to take our cue from Hermione about Snape-- and it's possible we are-- then I've got a great feeling of disconnect between what Rowling has shown us about Snape and what Hermione is saying there.
So, anyway, I have a few questions and comments about alchemy. Elanor was kind enough to send me the paper she wrote, which clearly explains some aspects of the process and its symbolism.
Because this book is called Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone, and ends which Harry's acquisition of the Stone, it's not unreasonable to expect Rowling to use some alchemical symbolism in this book. -Here's the part of Elanor's paper that Mill's quoted earlier:
":There is not only one definition of alchemy but several. First, alchemists were searching for the Philosopher’s Stone, a transformational object used to transform base metals into silver and gold and also to provide universal medical cure for illnesses, “the Elixir of Life,” made thanks to the stone. But alchemy didn’t consist of laboratory work alone. It was also a personal quest as the Alchemists’ main aim was the ennoblement of the soul, symbolized by the ennoblement of the matter."
"So, the Philosopher’s stone is not only an object but also the symbol of the journey the alchemist made to obtain it. This journey was the true reward because it gave him knowledge (he was supposed to have understood the mysteries of Nature), hence wisdom, and made him a better human being. This is what the alchemists called “the philosophical gold”: their own spiritual transformation was the true gold sought, the real Philosopher’s Stone."
So Dumbledore is very pleased with Harry at the end-- even though the Stone might have been safer had it stayed in the mirror-- because Harry has made a journey and proven himself worthy of getting the Stone. Voldemort and Quirrell fail. Their greed and thirst for power prevents their enlightenment. The Philosopher's Stone seems to be something that protects the health of a body-- it makes the vessel that houses the soul "immortal" (you have to keep consuming the elixer of life or it stops working), and undoubtedly would have restored Voldemort's body. Later, in GoF, Voldemort "settles" for his old body back, and uses a Lesser Stone to get it (Peter=Rock=Stone, Pettigrew=Petty Grew), and Voldemort rewards Pettigrew with a silver hand-- the golden prize still eludes him.
I'm wondering about alchemical symbolism in the seven tests. We have the first step to making the Stone: the Black Process. The idea is to take a base metal and turn it into something precious. The important part is that although it has little value now, it has potential.
Next comes the White Process, at the end of which the Stone can turn base metal into silver, but not produce gold or longer life.
The last stage is the Red Process, which will transform the Stone into the true Philosopher's Stone, which can be used to make gold or the elixir of life.
We can see these alchemy colors played out in the tests-- though there is one part that confuses me. Presumably the heroes with potential start there journey in the dark, then they acquire the silver (white) key, which lets them proceed to the place they can transform from black to white-- the chessboard. They are the black pieces, but through sacrifice win, and the White King throws his white crown at Harry's feet. Okay, so now they've achieved white. But then the next color reference is the black flame Harry must go through. Why are we back on black?
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TheSaint - May 5, 2006 10:42 am (#51 of 58)
My understanding is to achieve the stone, the cycle must repeat, three times.
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Esther Rose - May 5, 2006 10:45 am (#52 of 58)
Hi Mrs. Brisbee,
I am by far not all that educated in the Alchemic Process but two things came into mind on why the door forward is black.
#1 The darkest hour is before dawn. We even saw this in HBP. Dumbledore was AK'd in the evening, not in broad daylight.
#2 Does the white process somehow involve having light from within. And the best way to see your own light from with in is to extinguish all other light. In other words, the knowledge gained from the whitening process needs to be internalized so that the alchemist is no longer dependant upon what the white process provided. This separation is needed to pass into the Rubedo Process no?
So the door could be black because at this stage Harry no longer needs a torch to pass, because Harry is the torch and is ready for the Rubedo process. I don't know if I said that right though. If I remember correctly, Harry felt "ice cold"(white no?) while passing through the black flames.
This all sounds like what Harry was thinking at the end of HBP doesn't it? EGADS!
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journeymom - May 5, 2006 12:29 pm (#53 of 58)
"I see a red door and I want it painted black."
Forgive me, this is apropos of nothing, it just came to mind because of Esther Rose's comment about black doors and because I've been listening to my "Rolling Stones: Forty Licks" cd everyday for a week now. I know nothing of alchemy.
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Mrs Brisbee - May 6, 2006 6:10 am (#54 of 58)
My understanding is to achieve the stone, the cycle must repeat, three times. --The Saint
That works if it's supposed to be B-W-B-W-B-W-R, but if it's supposed to be B-W-R-B-W-R-B-W-R, then I think we are missing some red.
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TheSaint - May 6, 2006 5:09 pm (#55 of 58)
Seven metals, seven metals, seven metals - stone... so, yes B-W-B-W-B-W-R.
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Mrs Brisbee - May 7, 2006 5:04 am (#56 of 58)
Okay, now it makes sense. Thanks for clearing that up!
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Steve Newton - May 9, 2006 10:17 am (#57 of 58)
When I was thinking about this read-along I was thinking about the immortal words of Hannibal Lecter. I wish that I could remember what they were but they were along the lines of 'look for the first causes.' This idea along with reading about JKR rewriting chapter 1 many times so as not to give too much away convinced me that the answers to most of the questions in the series are in this book. I plan on gong back and reread the entire read-along threads to see if I can discern the key themes and ideas. We have probably hit them but I want to see if an overview will bring some extra clarity to me.
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Mrs Brisbee - May 10, 2006 6:24 am (#58 of 58)
Good idea, Steve. I'd love to know what you find. I wasn't able to give the PS/SS read-along as much time and thought as I wanted to. I had planned to pay more attention to themes, and see which ones had their foundations in the first book.
I posted a lot of "unfinished thoughts" this time around. Things I knew meant something, but I couldn't quite figure it out all the way or express it clearly.
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