Harry Potter Book Read Along Thread - Deathly Hallows

Julia H. Tue Jul 19, 2011 6:15 pm

This topic serves as an archive of several threads from the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum as hosted on World Crossing, which ceased operation on April 15, 2011. Julia H.

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Mona Sun Sep 25, 2011 1:36 am

Kip Carter - Jul 19, 2007 1:40 am
Edited Jul 25, 2007 12:19 am
This thread is to discuss Only Chapter One - The Dark Lord Ascending of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows!

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Regan of Gong - Jul 20, 2007 7:50 pm (#1 of 91)
Well, The Guardian was right. What an interesting first chapter- where do you get white peacocks from?

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MickeyCee3948 - Jul 20, 2007 9:26 pm (#2 of 91)
So much for DD getting Ollivander into the witness protection plan.

Mickey

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Anna L. Black - Jul 21, 2007 12:06 am (#3 of 91)
Wow, I'm glad JKR chose to read the first chapter. I'll have to wait another day for the rest of it

I might have missed it from the reading - is it Ollivander in the basement (or wherever)?

I'm so glad Tonks and Remus are married!

At first, I was sure it'd be Trelawney who was kidnapped. Oh well.

I have so much questions right now... When was Lucius freed? How come all the Malfoys are in (relatively) good health? Why even use the Malfoys' house? (Although that one was widely used in fanfic, so it's less surprising) But all those are really less important than - who is that source inside the Order??

Can somebody who has the book (What're you doing readin the forum? Go back to reading!) post the names of the Muggle Studies teacher and the imperiused Head of Department?

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Caius Iulius - Jul 21, 2007 3:13 am (#4 of 91)
Voldemort must really have been gaining power to make headquarters in such obvious a place as the Malfoy Castle.

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Madam Pince - Jul 21, 2007 6:08 am (#5 of 91)
They're two totally new characters, Anna, I'm not surprised if you couldn't understand what JKR was speaking as she read. The Muggle Studies teacher is Charity Burbage, and the Head of the Dept. of Magical Law Enforcement is Pius Thicknesse.

No idea what's going on with Snape -- he didn't even blink about Charity. Maybe he knew it was hopeless? *refusing to believe he's evil* Surprising how quiet Narcissa is being -- controlling Lucius and Draco. I'm going to choose to think she and Snape know something between them?

Yuck about Nagini's dinner.

I don't much like the poems prior to Chapter One -- too much about friends dying but it's OK really... But "blissful powers underground... send help... bless the children, give them triumph..." sounds promising for the good guys behind the veil to come offer some help, maybe?

Cool how the dedication is written in the shape of a lightning-bolt. Now I'm thinking the scar is a horcrux. And very sweet dedication -- it left me feeling like she was talking straight to me, and got me all misty-eyed. Sigh...

(OK, I'm going, I'm going -- let a person get a cuppa coffee! )

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Ponine - Jul 21, 2007 11:54 am (#6 of 91)
Madam Pince - those two poems threw me for a loop, too, I almost didn't want to read after that, they struck me as so ominous.

EDIT: OH DUH!!

Madam Pince - Of course they're shaped like his scar, heh? I just saw Slytherin's serpent...

I love this forum. (And obviously the duh was for me, as I smacked myself on the forhead in a very Hermioneish manner)

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Holly T. - Jul 21, 2007 4:43 pm (#7 of 91)
I was very concerned after reading the two poems. I actually put my hand over the table of contents so I wouldn't read the chapter titles for fear they might give something away.

Regan, I would think there could be albino peacocks the same as any other animal.

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Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 21, 2007 6:22 pm (#8 of 91)
Thanks Madame Pince I did not notice the scar shaped dedication. LPO

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Jenniffler - Jul 21, 2007 8:00 pm (#9 of 91)
Edited Jul 21, 2007 9:30 pm
The poems are very good.

The Dark Lord Ascending The Death Eater gathering was very evil. I had to wash my hands after reading this chapter.

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Potteraholic - Jul 21, 2007 8:29 pm (#10 of 91)
I did the exact same thing! I used my front jacket cover to keep the Table of Contents covered the whole time!

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CatBailey - Jul 22, 2007 6:29 am (#11 of 91)
I kept my Table of Contents covered, too! Smile

Loved this chapter - compelling, sinister, scary. Poor Charity Burbage. Snape is as ambiguous as ever. And I felt really, really sorry for Draco and family.

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Ann - Jul 22, 2007 6:48 am (#12 of 91)
You guys are nuts! One of the best parts of getting a new Potter book is reading over the Table of Contents! I was abroad and thus read a British edition of HBP, and I hated that I couldn't see all the chapter titles first.

JKR's chapter titles are always wonderfully misleading. Think about "After the Funeral" in HBP. That had me terrified when I saw it, but it turned out to be Aragog (who I didn't mourn at all. Sorry, Hagrid.)

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Potteraholic - Jul 22, 2007 7:00 am (#13 of 91)
Ann,

To each his or her own. By all means, read the Table of Contents all you want. Not all of DH's chapter titles are/were misleading, and even if they were, I didn't want to be trying to figure out how they were misleading, somewhere in the back of my mind, while reading the book for the first time. I wanted this reading of the finalbook to be as unsullied as possible.

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Kevin Corbett - Jul 22, 2007 9:38 am (#14 of 91)
I'm a classics minor and fervent admirer of all things Greek and Roman, I can tell you a bit about the quote.

First, its not a poem, its a quote from a play called, as it says, The Libation Bearers by the Greek dramatist Aeschylus. I googled it, and the translation is by a guy named Robert Fagles. I think it might actually be a prose translation, and JKR just added the stanzas herself---I might be wrong though, as my copy of the play is by a different translator.

Anyway, what we have here is the chorus trying to steel the main character Orestes to do what he must---kill his mother and her lover. Er...let me explain a bit more, for those of you who don't know. It starts will Helen, the queen of Sparta, who was kidnapped by or ran off with the handsome prince Paris of Troy, thereafter becoming Helen of Troy. She was married to a guy named Menelaus whose brother was Agamemnon, and the brothers formed a confederacy of Greeks to take back Helen, because they had all promised to do so if something like this happened when Menelaus first married her. But Agamenmon was going for a hunt in a grove sacred to the hunter goddess Artemis and boasted that he was a better hunter than even her. When his ships got to the city of Aulis, suddenly the wind stopped blowing, due, as he found out, to the wrath of Artemis herself for his boast. Artemis told him that he would only make it to Troy if he sacrificed his eldest daughter Iphigeneia to her, she would give them their wind. Agamemnon wasn't altogether a very good guy, so despite some initial reluctance, he agreed. He told his wife Clytemnestra (or Klytemnestra, if you want to be very strictly Greek about it) that he was going to marry her off to the Greek hero Achilles, so off she sent her. In some versions, she is just killed and that's the end of it, but in others, Artemis whisks her away and makes her her priestess in a far off land called Tauris, but lets Agamemnon think he killed her.

Anyway, Clytemnestra eventually found out about this and she was enraged and became bent on revenge against her husband. Also, she had taken a lover at the time, Agamemnon's cousin Aegisthus, who had seduced her so he could take the throne of Argos, Agamemnon's kingdom. Anyway, ten years passed and finally the Trojan war was over. Although the Greeks won, the goddess Athena had cursed most of the returning Greeks (despite having supported them throughout the war) because a Greek warrior named Ajax had raped the Trojan prophetess Cassandra on her altar where she had been seeking sanctuary. Agamemnon took Cassandra as his concubine and headed back to Argos in high spirits and was the first to make it back of all the Greeks. Clytemnestra look kindly on him, but hated him for sacrificing Iphigeneia and for taking a concubine. She offered him a bath, and when he was in, threw a net laced with poison over him and boiled him alive. She also killed Cassandra. All this is told, among other places, in Aeschylus's Agamemnon, of which The Libation Bearers is the follow up.

What happens in The Libation Bearers is thus: Agamemnon's daughter Electra is now little more than a slave and has been ordered to pour libations or offering onto Agamemnon's grave by her mother. While at this, she meets a man who turns out to be her brother Orestes, who had been staying in the care of the king of Phocis for his safety. At this point, Electra begins very strongly urging Orestes to avenge their father's death by killing Clytemnestra and Aegisthus. This, however, buts Orestes in a bit of a pickle as far as what was demanded of him by the gods: on the one hand he is absolutely obligated to avenge his father's death, lest he invoke the wrath of Apollo for not fulfilling his duty's to his father. On the other hand, he is equally obligated to never kill a parent, lest he incur the wrath of the Erinyes (you might know them by their Latin name as "Furies"), the bird-like goddesses who will hunt him down bodily and torture him for eternity for such an act. As I said before, the quote is from just before Orestes is setting out to kill his mother.

I have, obviously, not done the tale justice, so I recommend you should all read it. This site (http://mkatz.web.wesleyan.edu/wescourses/2001f/cciv210/01/choephoroi.htm) has the translation Jo used (though I'm not sure if it's the whole play). If, like me, you prefer a more poetic translation, you should try this one (http://www.mala.bc.ca/~Johnstoi/aeschylus/libationbearers.htm) which is also pretty good.

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Caius Iulius - Jul 22, 2007 9:50 am (#15 of 91)
Kevin, if I may add something to your excellent story telling:

For non-native speakers: Helen is usually referred to as Helena (of Troyes/Troia/Troye) in other languages.

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Solitaire - Jul 22, 2007 2:01 pm (#16 of 91)
One of the best parts of getting a new Potter book is reading over the Table of Contents!

Okay, Ann, I confess ... I did this, too, before starting to read!

Anna, when I first saw the hanging figure, I assumed it would be Trelawney. I agree with whoever said "Yuck!" to the idea that she was Nagini's lunch.

Solitaire

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Madam Pince - Jul 22, 2007 3:22 pm (#17 of 91)
I thought it was going to be Trelawney, too.

I read the Table of Contents in a really quick skim, then didn't allow myself to study them at all. I told myself it didn't count if I didn't look too hard.

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rassannassar - Jul 22, 2007 6:36 pm (#18 of 91)
I glance over the table of contents, but I was too eager to start the book to read it thoroughly. I actually never really read the chapter titles at all as I read except for near the end. It's partly because of that that I didn't know what chapter I was in at some points and now the whole book seems like one big huge story that wasn't separated at all. It was kind of blur too mostly because I read it so fast, I have to read it again.

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Mediwitch - Jul 22, 2007 6:36 pm (#19 of 91)
I've got a question - on page 11 (Scholastic), right after LV "introduces" the "guest", there is this short paragraph:

There were small noises of comprehension around the table. A broad, hunched woman with pointed teeth cackled.

That description made me think of Umbridge, especially the use of "broad" and "pointed teeth". I used to think she was not a Death Eater (The world is not divided into good people and Death Eaters...) but now I'm not so sure!

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Viola Intonada - Jul 22, 2007 7:24 pm (#20 of 91)
I read through the Table of Contents before starting the book. I had to know what I was up against in my reading.

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Nicholas Schouten - Jul 22, 2007 8:11 pm (#21 of 91)
Thanks to Kevin C. for the excellent shortened version of the Libation Bearers.

BTW, did anyone notice that the dedication begins with "The" and ends with "End". Too much fun for the last book! Way to go Jo!

-Nick

THE END

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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 22, 2007 9:00 pm (#22 of 91)
Mediwitch, there are several possibilities who the hunched Death Eater could be Bathilda Bagshot who is described tiny and stooped according to the Lexicon.

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M A Grimmett - Jul 23, 2007 6:46 am (#23 of 91)
Man, the book got off to a very evil start! I felt bad that the Professor was eaten by the snake. Yuk!!!

I liked the poems. I thought they were very fitting and like an easter egg for the last book.

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Nymphadora - Jul 23, 2007 8:45 am (#24 of 91)
Kevin Corbett, your backstory and summary of the Choeforoi or Libation Bearers is excellent, but for one tiny detail: Agamemnon's kingdom was Mycenae, which is very near Argos, but inland. This is important as it explains the choice of Aulis (this is north of Athens, beneath Euboia); if Argos was Agamemnon's town, he would have certainly chosen its bigger port for the assembly. If you type into google maps "Argos, Greece" or "Mycenae, Greece" you'll understand what the distances are (probably about a day's ride between Argos and Mycenae, and a couple of days to Aulis by trireme).

All in all I'm so happy to see people interested in Aeschylus and the ancient greek heroes, I almost screamed when I read the foreword!!

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Kevin Corbett - Jul 23, 2007 9:51 am (#25 of 91)
Mycenae was near Argos, but Agamenmon's kingdom (or at least its capital city) was called Argos or Argolis. Since no one should trust anything but the text, I'll give these lines from Agamemnon

But now at last fair fall the welcome hour

That sets me free, whene'er the thick night glow

With beacon-fire of hope deferred no more.

All hail!

Fire of the night, that brings my spirit day,

Shedding on Argos light, and dance, and song,

Greetings to fortune, hail!

As for other things, I can give you the scene location from a translation of the same play:

Before the palace of AGAMEMNON in Argos. In front of the palace there are statues of the gods, and altars prepared for sacrifice. It is night. On the roof of the palace can be discerned a WATCHMAN.

You can see this version of the Agamemnon at [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

And though I neither entirely trust Wikipedia, the entry there on the Agamemnon states:

Agamemnon details the return of Agamemnon, King of Argos, from the Trojan War to his death

This is from [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Mycenae, was, as I think, the kingdom of Atreus, Agamemnon and Menelaus's father, which was also usurped by Aegisthus. Mycenae might have been Agamemnon's birthright, but it wasn't his kingdom, or at least it wasn't where he returned to after the Trojan War. Actually, you might be confusing the modern cities for the ancient, which aren't quite the same.

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journeymom - Jul 23, 2007 12:09 pm (#26 of 91)
Snape sits at Voldemort's right hand.

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Tazzygirl - Jul 23, 2007 12:16 pm (#27 of 91)
I did not read the poems at the beginning- guess I should do that! lol

I also thought the Muggle Studies teacher was Trelawney- breathed a sigh of relief that it wasn't!

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Ann - Jul 24, 2007 7:41 am (#28 of 91)
I assumed the broad, hunched woman with pointed teeth was Alecto Carrow, Amycus's sister. The Carrows witnessed Dumbledore's death. Amycus is the wheezy giggle a few pages earlier--his giggles are wheezy in HBP too. Alecto is described as "a stocky little woman," and pointed teeth would certainly suit her. Or, of course, JKR could simply be inserting another unattractive female DE. But I think if Umbridge had had pointed teeth, that would have been mentioned. And if this were a clue that she is really a DE, it would have been a bit clearer.

I'm doing a slower and much more careful read of the book, since "narrative greed" propelled me through it the first time in less than 11 hours. I noticed several interesting things in this chapter. It?s odd that Yaxley says that Apparition and Floo travel can be traced by the Ministry (and hence the DEs, since they control that department). Yet Harry Apparates quite frequently in the following pages without being traced, even though he?s unlicensed. Perhaps that?s why? Or perhaps this tracing only refers to him while he is under-age?

And the prisoner beneath the table seems to yowl right after Voldemort alludes to the fact that he now knows the full prophecy. Is the person below the one who gave it to him? And I wondered also if the prisoner isn't being kept in the secret compartment under the drawing room floor that Draco mentions in CoS. Although if so, it apparently has another means of access, since Wormtail leaves the room rather than crawling under the table to see to the prisoner.

Charity Burbage's pleas to Severus Snape in this chapter are wrenching. She must know that he has killed Dumbledore. I think Rowling is creating here an intentional echo of Dumbledore's pleas on the Astronomy Tower.

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Mediwitch - Jul 24, 2007 8:32 am (#29 of 91)
Hi Ann. I think you are probably right about the unnamed female being Alecto, but as Umbridge was described several times in HBP as having pointed teeth it just struck me.

I don't want to say much on this thread, but I think your question about who the prisoner is comes later on. I don't think the prisoner was under the table, literally in the same room, but rather in the cellar.

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Ann - Jul 24, 2007 10:04 am (#30 of 91)
I'm just wondering whether the prisoner who moans is the same prisoner we learn about later. The moan seems to be a direct reaction to Voldemort's implication that he knows the whole prophecy now.

I can't find any description of Umbridge having pointy teeth (and she doesn't appear in HBP at all, except at the funeral). Lexicon doesn't list it as one of her characteristics. The only person(?) I can find with pointy teeth is (not surprisingly) Fenir Greyback.

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wynnleaf - Jul 24, 2007 10:15 am (#31 of 91)
How could Voldemort know the whole prophecy at that point? Regardless what he says, that is.

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Caius Iulius - Jul 24, 2007 10:48 am (#32 of 91)
I think Wormtail also has a wheezy giggle.

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Marie E. - Jul 24, 2007 10:57 am (#33 of 91)
I have seen white peacocks at a zoo. They're quite pretty, when not being owned by Death Eaters.

I was a little surprised to see that Lucius was out of jail. I guess that was to let us know that Voldemort was gaining more control.

I feel sorry for Draco here. Such a difference between his demeanor at the beginning of HBP.

Bellatrix is seriously disturbed.

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Ann - Jul 24, 2007 11:03 am (#34 of 91)
I don't know how he knows, wynnleaf, but I think he does. He says "I know better now. I understand those things that I did not understand before. I must be the one to kill Harry Potter, and I shall be." I wondered, as I read this the first time, whether Snape had given him the entire prophecy, at Dumbledore's instigation, sometime during Book 6, since during "The Flight of the Prince," Snape tells the other DEs "Potter belongs to the Dark Lord. We are to leave him."

People have suggested that the prophecy was kept from Voldemort because he would have to come out in the open to retrieve it. And also, his ignorance of it protected Harry, because he didn't know what effect attacking him might have. In retrospect, after he was out in the open, LV's knowing the prophecy would give Harry another kind of protection, as Snape's warning to his colleagues illustrates. But then the timing of that moaning?

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Chemyst - Jul 24, 2007 11:05 am (#35 of 91)
Ann, the Lexicon description of Umbridge came from Harry's observation at the trial. The "very pointed teeth" are found at the beginning of her speech during the start-of-term feast.

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M A Grimmett - Jul 24, 2007 12:58 pm (#36 of 91)
I think Draco's really understanding what it's like to be the bullied rather than the Bully.

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gankomon - Jul 24, 2007 2:04 pm (#37 of 91)
I have zero pity for Draco. He got what he wanted- his entire family did. They have been working diligently for Voldemort's return for years. Don't forget that it was Lucius who planted the diary that re-opened the Chamber, after all, and Draco became a Death Eater of his own free will. This simply reinforces the old bromide of "Be careful what you wish for- you may get it."

I fely huge pity for Charity Burbage- another innocent victim of the Dark Lord. And so needless, too. I can't wait for Bellatrix to get hers- I cannot imagine that she will survive this book and I hope her end is as dreadful and those she has inflicted on others.

Kevin- I also am a student of Classics and I confess I did not read the poems, but your explanation was admirable. I had to go back and re-read the great plays in translation- I haven't read them since grad school, and my Greek is no longer good enough to read the originals.

Regards,

gankomon

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Ann - Jul 24, 2007 2:32 pm (#38 of 91)
Chemyst, thanks. I overlooked that. (It's so easy to do, when there's so much of canon. So maybe it is Umbridge? She's certainly enough of a blood purist, with her scorn for giants, centaurs, and werewolves. But I suspect she's too much of a by-the-book Ministry adherent to join up.

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2BMcsmom - Jul 24, 2007 2:34 pm (#39 of 91)
According to my hubby, there are 4 different kinds of peacocks and they all come from India. The white ones are one of the 4 kinds and not albino.

I read the chapter titles as well. I started from the very first page. I like to see where it says first edition.

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haymoni - Jul 24, 2007 6:08 pm (#40 of 91)
I thought the whole 1st chapter was beyond creepy.

I didn't think the person hanging upside down would turn out to be a woman.

I thought it was the Carrow sister wheezing away there. The 2 of them really are disturbed. They remind me of the Gaunts.

I felt sorry for the Malfoys. Draco was ready to leave on The Tower. I don't like seeing Lucius (or Movie Lucius) so beaten. Narcissa has really pulled herself together.

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Soul Mate for Sirius - Jul 25, 2007 8:55 am (#41 of 91)
I really liked this chapter, although I do agree it was insanely creepy! I liked seeing the Malfoy's (especially Lucuis) defeated and quiet.

I also thought it really showed who actually wears the pants in that family! Narcissa seems to be the one who controls what happens to her family, and she seems to be the only one in the family who can control her temper. I know she yells at Harry in the beginning of HBP, but even then she never loses her cool the way Draco and Lucius tend to. As much as I obviously hate the DE's, it was nice to see another strong female character who isn't quite as "out-there" as Bella. Cissy didn't seem to me to be controling Lucius out of devotion to LV as much as out of a need to protect her family and try to get back into LV's good graces as to avoid further punishment.

I also thought that the "guest" was going to be Trelawny at first. Thank god it wasn't. I don't think DD ever told Snape to tell LV the remainder of the prophecy though. I got the impression at the end of OotP that Harry was the only other person DD had ever revealed the entire prophecy to, and I can't see how it would benefit the Order or Harry for LV to know the entire thing. In fact, come to think of it, is there ever a point where we see that LV even knows there is more to the prophcy. I know he wanted to hear it for himself, but was that because he realized there was more then what Snape told him, or just because he wasnted to hear the ACTUAL thing? (I hope my question makes sense!)

-Jenn

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Choices - Jul 25, 2007 10:43 am (#42 of 91)
I don't think Umbridge is a Dark-Marked member of the DE's, but she isn't doing anything to fight them. I think she is related to at least one DE. Later, one of the DE's with Voldemort is called Selwyn and even later Umbridge tells Hermione/Mafalda that she is related to the Selwyns - thus the "S" on her jewelry. Yeah, right. LOL

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Chemyst - Jul 25, 2007 2:46 pm (#43 of 91)
I thought perhaps that if Charity Burbage had been mentioned at least once in an earlier book– perhaps if Arthur had received an owl post thank-you for his donation of a funky muggle artifact for use as a teaching aid? it could have added to the intensity of the horror. Instead, introducing a new character left a twinge of who-is-she alienation.

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Solitaire - Jul 25, 2007 5:37 pm (#44 of 91)
Gankomon, I do not argue that the Malfoys got what they deserved. They made the choice to become DEs. I do believe, however, that Lucius planted the diary on Ginny for his own evil purposes. He couldn't have done it on Voldemort's instructions--at least, not at that time--because he claimed in GoF not to know that LV was back. I'm further betting Lucius didn't even bother trying to break out of Azkaban in HBP, because he knew what he'd face. I also believe he came out at this time because he had no choice. When we see him in DH, he has been stripped of all authority in his own home by Bella as well as Voldy. Having his wand taken by Voldemort is really humiliating ... not that he doesn't deserve to be taken down. It's just an observation.

Solitaire

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totyle - Jul 25, 2007 6:53 pm (#45 of 91)
Chemyst, I agree..same here when I read that part..it could have been someone mentioned before even in passing like Prof Sinastra etc and that would have made it REAL for me.

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Finn BV - Jul 25, 2007 7:10 pm (#46 of 91)
On the contrary, I thought the introduction of a new character was a good way to ease in to the notion that the deaths are just going downhill from here. Besides, we learn she was the Muggle Studies teacher, and Voldemort's reasons for killing her are just gruesome: it shows just how much he cannot stand the impurity of blood.

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Nicoline Vance - Jul 27, 2007 10:04 am (#47 of 91)
Voldemort is such a hypocrite when it comes to blood "purity." Does anyone outside of Dumbledore, Harry, or Wormtail know of his muggle father? I would guess Wormtail would only because he helped create the potion that restored Voldemort to flesh.

I can understand Voldemort's hatred of muggles. The muggle world was not especially kind to him. I wonder if Prof. Burbage was a muggle born?

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Chemyst - Jul 27, 2007 11:05 am (#48 of 91)
I wonder if Prof. Burbage was a muggle born?
That seems likely; a muggle-born would know the culture the best. It was interesting that "charity" in its old-fashioned sense is a synonym for love. Voldemort kills love.

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Mudblood Proud - Jul 27, 2007 5:06 pm (#49 of 91)
After reading everyone talking about the dedication and chapter titles, my first thought was "There was a dedication? There were other pages before Chapter 1?" I was so anxious to start reading, I just flew to the firt page of Chapter 1 and started reading (it was 2 a.m. after all). I love the way it started; it reminded my of the beginning of Chapter 2 in HBP. They both start out mysterious and then take you to a place we've never seen before (Spinner's End/Malfoy Manor). I didn't mean I love the content (seeing someone hanging over the table and then becoming Nagini's meal), but the way it just grabs you and pulls you right into the story. All of the books do that, but this type of opening seems more mysterious; and being a fan of mysteries (as well as Harry Potter), I was caught from the first word.

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HungarianHorntail11 - Jul 28, 2007 7:55 am (#50 of 91)
I have to go with Finn on this one. I felt the death of an unknown eased me into the concept of "get used to it because there'll be more of this and it will hit harder".

Thanks for that tidbit, Chemyst. Very fitting for him, isn't it?

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Mona Sun Sep 25, 2011 1:43 am

PatPat - Jul 28, 2007 3:20 pm (#51 of 91)
I agree with Finn also. I think the death of Burbage was more to show us Voldemort's prejudices than anything else. I found it horrible in spite of the fact that we really didn't know her before. It also served to give us more doubts about Snape.

I'm not sure I agree that the Muggle world was not kind to Voldemort. We actually don't see much of how he was treated at the orphanage, but it seemed like the staff were decent enough people. It was a sad place to grow up, certainly, but I somehow don't think Tom was picked on. The other way around seems more likely. He seems to torture others purely because he can. Muggles are an easy target and it gives him a rallying point for his cause. He shows this in the first chapter. He uses the death of Burbage, the Muggle Studies teacher to rally and entertain his supporters. It's very chilling.

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Choices - Jul 28, 2007 3:43 pm (#52 of 91)
I also do not agree that the Muggle world was not good to Tom Riddle. He was given as good as the Muggle children. He was singled out perhaps, but it was not because he was a wizard (which they didn't know), but because he was strange and unpleasant and often mean to the other children. Tom Riddle, Sr. did not pursue Merope and then abandon her. She tricked him and pursued him, and when he finally came to his senses and realized how he had been tricked, he left. I do not see that Tom Riddle was treated any different than any other child born in his predicament - mother dead and father not around. Any bad treatment he received was generated by his strange, bad behavior. He brought it on himself.

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Nicoline Vance - Jul 28, 2007 3:52 pm (#53 of 91)
I guess I was trying to see from Voldemort's point of view that the muggle world was not treating him as it should. But, perhaps he would only have felt he was getting what he deserved if everyone worshipped him and catered to his every desire.

Harry was not treated very kindly by many muggles, but did not have the need for revenge against all mugglekind.

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rambkowalczyk - Jul 28, 2007 4:17 pm (#54 of 91)
I found it horrible in spite of the fact that we really didn't know her before. Pat Pat

It makes me wish that JKR had introduced her before so we could have appreciated her while she was alive. What I found interesting about her death was that it wasn't explicitly stated who said the Avadra Kedrava. Was it Snape or Voldemort? She was pleaded to Snape, and it would have been very Death Eaterish for him to kill her as such. Personally I think it was Voldemort, but I liked the ambiguity.

I think her death was to foreshadow what would be happening to Muggleborns.

The other thing I thought interesting in this chapter was revealing that Lucius was an Animagus. He is a peacock strutting about isn't he? I bet he's glad he's white because he puts much stock in believing he is a Pure Blood.

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Choices - Jul 28, 2007 4:28 pm (#55 of 91)
Ramb - "The other thing I thought interesting in this chapter was revealing that Lucius was an Animagus. He is a peacock strutting about isn't he? I bet he's glad he's white because he puts much stock in believing he is a Pure Blood"

Ramb, I did not get that from reading this chapter. What specifically made you think that Lucius was an animagus with a peacock form? Yes, Snape and Yaxley see a peacock as they arrive, but when they get inside Lucius is sitting at the table. I get the impression that he is somewhat trapped they by Voldemort's presence in his home - how could he jump up and run outside and transform into a peacock and strut around and then be back at the table so quickly?

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haymoni - Jul 28, 2007 5:45 pm (#56 of 91)
I think Yaxley summed it up perfectly - Lucius would have peacocks and you are probably right - they would be pure white.

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HungarianHorntail11 - Jul 28, 2007 7:44 pm (#57 of 91)
I don't think Big V's behavior had anything to do with the way muggles treated him. I think it had a LOT to do with the fact that he came from an inbred family. Look at Nero.

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PatPat - Jul 29, 2007 8:17 am (#58 of 91)
LOL, Choices. I agree. I don't think the peacock was Lucius. Yaxley was just pointing out that Lucius would have white peacocks as a way to show off his wealth and status.

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rambkowalczyk - Jul 29, 2007 11:39 am (#59 of 91)
What specifically made you think that Lucius was an animagus with a peacock form?

--...but the source of the noise proved to be nothing more than a pure-white peacock, strutting majestically along the top of the hedge.--

Lucius has white blond hair, and the words strutting majestically seemed to be the way Lucius sees himself.

--"He always did himself well, Lucius. Peacocks..." Yaxley thrust his wand back under his cloak with a snort.--

As to the fact that Lucius was inside when Snape and Yaxley entered, I just assumed Lucius could Apparate into his own house. Besides at this point both Snape and Yaxley were late and Voldemort wasn't too pleased. He could have easily told Lucius to check the front gate for them. Note that that after Snape and Yaxley saw the peacock, the front door opened by itself.

Maybe Lucius isn't an Animagus but the peacock watching the gates is an interesting metaphor.

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Kevin Corbett - Jul 29, 2007 5:00 pm (#60 of 91)
I wish she hadn't used peacocks for the Malfoys. One of my favorite writers, Flannery O'Connor, loved peacocks and peahens and raised them I think all her life. So I have a hard time thinking ill of the peacock, or at least thinking them a symbol of vanity and pride, which I know they often are.

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Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 30, 2007 2:32 am (#61 of 91)
Kevin Corbett - don't worry about the Peacock thing. I took it to mean the size of the house. Many country homes in England have peacocks, having peacocks would have helped hide the true nature of the house from unwanted Muggle attention. I bet the drive that Snape and Yaxley walked up was a mile long as well.

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Solitaire - Jul 30, 2007 8:43 am (#62 of 91)
When I Googled "peacocks," I came up with a lot of sites, and several mentioned the birds' connections to alchemy. I won't go there on this thread, as I don't really understand alchemy all that well, and this isn't an alchemy thread. You might ask on the new DH Alchemy thread. It's possible Elanor, Nick, or some of the others can offer an alchemical explanation for the choice of birds. I'm willing to accept the simpler idea that the Malfoys like to make a show of their wealth and importance, so, of course, they would choose something rare and exotic to roam their estate.

Solitaire

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Jenniffler - Jul 30, 2007 10:10 am (#63 of 91)
A saying goes that pets resemble their owners and vice versa. A pale peacock fits with the blonde, pale faced Malfoys.

Many peahens and a beautiful peacock were allowed free range in my neighborhood in my youth. The caw of a peacock sounds to me like someone calling, "Help me!" That makes it more appropriate to the Death Eater household.

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Steve Newton - Jul 30, 2007 12:56 pm (#64 of 91)
Some random comments:

I don't recognize Yaxley.

I think that the eyes follow Snape because the others are jealous of his position at Voldemort's right hand.

Poor Dawlish. Everybody picks on him.

Who was the source that Snape and Voldemort discussed whose name can't be mentioned?

Voldemort seems to want Lucius defenseless. He takes his wand.

I don't recall ever hearing about Professor Burbage before.

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Choices - Jul 30, 2007 4:37 pm (#65 of 91)
Steve, Yaxley was mentioned in the second chapter of HBP. Lysandra Yaxley was married to Arcturus Black - she died in 1969 - she was possibly a relative of DE Yaxley. HP Lexicon information.

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Steve Newton - Jul 30, 2007 4:42 pm (#66 of 91)
Thanks. I guess that I had a remote chance of remembering that.

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Choices - Jul 30, 2007 4:44 pm (#67 of 91)
You're welcome. I had to look it up to remember where I had heard of Yaxley before. LOL

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Chemyst - Jul 31, 2007 4:12 am (#68 of 91)
I would like to thank Nathan Zimmermann for mentioning Yaxley several times in the past, and more recently jogging my memory during the last big update of Jo's website before the book (not the thank-yous, but one before that) so that I was up to speed and could keep reading without stopping & looking up Yaxley.

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Ana Cis - Aug 4, 2007 1:36 pm (#69 of 91)
These are ?some? of my impressions about Chapter One. This book begins with a great deal of symbolic imagery and texture, giving us literary scenes filled with distrust, starkness, danger, trepidation. There are constant references to the obstruction of light, moonlight, firelight, exemplifying darkness, secrets, deception throughout the chapter. There?s a lot duality images like dark/shadows and, light, in and out, up and down, above and below, etc.

There are, also, many references to the number ?two? ?beginning with the word in the very first sentence and repeated throughout the chapter. There?s also the word ?second,? and the use of pairings (Snape and Yaxley, Snape and Voldemort). These duality images can represent many things, such as the ongoing war/conflict, internal conflict (which we see with the Malfoys), and the alchemical and philosophical thought on the union of opposites (i.e., there?s no up without a down, no fullness without emptiness, no goodness without evil, no life without death, and so on). It?s a part of the natural cycle in the cosmos, such as turning day into night, the turn of the seasons--an essential part of cosmic order (activity/growth/enlightenment). There can be a lot more discussion, but it can be addressed in the Alchemy or Symbolism threads.

We also see a lot of ?passage of time? references such as day, moment, second, Saturday, now, almost being late, and so on--which are also symbolic references to cosmic activity and cycles. These are in stark contrast to the Death Eater characters and especially Voldemort?s goal to never die (figuratively not evolves, stop time).

Another metaphor/analogy (can?t always tell which), is that of Nazi era, a fascist totalitarian, military regime. It first shows distrust between Yaxley and Snape as they face each with wands drawn. Then they head in one direction, marching, saluting (?Sieg Heil? anyone?); inside the manor, they halting vs. stopping, and they?re a ?company (a small military unit; usually two or three platoons) around the table?.

As for the introduction of the new character, it?s is not about the character, but about what she represents. This is the figurative ?introduction to genocide?, the worse kind of prejudice. Voldemort being the ultimate evil is planning commit the ultimate evil or crime. As far as the white peacock. I noticed two literary aspects:

First, a metaphor about the Malfoys? supreme vanity (proud as peacocks); however, these peacocks are very much afraid they?re going to die.

Second, it?s alchemical reference to a stage that?s between the Nigredo/Black stage and the Albedo/White Stage in the process of turning base metals (lead) into philosophical gold. Alchemists symbolized this process by the iridescent fan of the ?Peacock?s Tail?. However, in some alchemical texts, it represents the process going wrong, thus yielding dross (refuse). White has been generally symbolic of death throughout the books. This may represent the view that Voldemort and the Death Eaters are symbolic of a process that?s gone wrong.

As I said in the beginning, there?s a lot of symbolic imagery in this chapter.

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Choices - Aug 5, 2007 8:24 am (#70 of 91)
Wonderful and informative post, Ana Cis. I really enjoyed reading your views.

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PatPat - Aug 5, 2007 9:42 am (#71 of 91)
Excellent post, Ana.

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Luna Logic - Aug 11, 2007 12:17 pm (#72 of 91)
Some of my notes or questions on chapter 1
Narcissa says to Lucius to obey. The Malfoy family avoids eye contact.
Voldemort notices the lack of ?love? for him by Malfoy family.

What day of July ? End of July. Tonks and Lupin were married a week ago. Harry will be moved next Saturday. Then, how many days at the Burrow before his birthday ? Not much. Four days ?

Bellatrix wants to kill Tonks personally.

Why is Voldemort saying : "I know better now. I understand those things that I did not understand before. I must be the one to kill Harry Potter, and I shall be." (Bloomsbury, p. 13)?
What are ?those things?? And, in Voldemort?s mind, what would happen if Harry was killed by somebody else ?

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pedrobobo - Aug 13, 2007 9:12 pm (#73 of 91)
"[... ] I know better now. I understand those things that I did not understand before. I must be the one to kill Harry Potter, and I shall be."

"At these words, seemingly in response to them , a sudden wail sounded, a terrible, drawn-out cry of misery and pain. Many of those at the table looked downward, startled, for the sound had seemed to issue from below their feet.

Voldemort then sends Wormtail to quiet the prisoner and continues his speech:

"As I was saying," continued Voldemort, looking again at the tense faces of his followers, "I understand better now. I shall need, for instance to borrow a wand from one of you before I go kill Potter."

We find out later that Ollivander was being held prisoner in the cellar of the Malfoy manner. We also find out that Voldemort had been questioning him about wands (using the Cruciatus Curse to pry information), and in particular about the connection between Voldemort's and Harry's wands.

I believe it is reasonable to assume the wailing was Olivander, lamenting over the fact that he might have given Voldemort the crucial piece of information he needed to kill Harry.

As of the time frame of Chapter 1, we know that Olivander has told him that using another wand should be enough to defeat Harry - which is why Voldemort takes Lucius' wand. It is only after Voldemort failed to kill Harry with Lucius' wand that he seeks the elder wand. (Harry starts seeing visions of Gregorvitch, and Ollivander mentions being questioned about the elder wand after Harry's wand snapped Lucius')

So I believe it is fairly safe to say that the "wand connection" is what he didn't understand before, but does now.

As far as what he thought might happen if somebody else succeeded, Voldemort has tried (and failed) on several occasions to personally kill Harry. If somebody else succeeded where Voldemort could not, it would make him appear weaker - or at the very least, not "all powerful." Voldemort rules primarily by fear, and would want to remain the biggest, baddest evil guy around.

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Xenophilius - Aug 14, 2007 2:57 am (#74 of 91)
Well said!

We also know that the "cell" is not soundproof.

The other thing I like about this chapter is Narcissa. She is directing the behaviors of the other two Malfoys while using occlumency. If she hasn't turned against Voldemort at this point, she is definately on the fence.

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Joanna Lupin - Aug 14, 2007 3:25 am (#75 of 91)
How do you mean 'by using occlumency'? Eye contact is often essential to perform legilimency (which I think you imply) and there is none, besides legilimency is about extracting memories and feelings. I don't think Narcissa is powerful enough to plant a message in the minds of the otherr two (non-verbally and without using a wand). She was communicating with them by the use of gesture and mime and touch, as simple as that.

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Xenophilius - Aug 14, 2007 4:37 am (#76 of 91)
I probably did not express myself right. Narcissa was not going to allow Voldemort access to her mind thus the deadpan stares. At the same time, the other Malfoys were looking for and getting direction from her.

"Malfoy glanced sideways at his wife. She was staring straight ahead, ... but beneath the table her slim fingers closed briefly on his wrist." Only after that did Malfoy give Voldemort his wand.

"To Malfoy's left, his wife made an odd stiff nod, her eyes averted from Voldemort and the snake."

Then later, Voldemort taunts Draco about babysitting the cubs. Draco "then caught his mother's eye. She shook her head almost imperceptibly, then resumed her own deadpan stare at the opposite wall." Draco did not answer Voldemort's question.

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Joanna Lupin - Aug 14, 2007 8:26 am (#77 of 91)
I don't know if Narcissa was applying occlumency (Lucius sure wasn't, Voldemort accused him of lying) I would prefer it if she didn't because it would prove further just how arrogant Voldemort is (I'm refering to another Narcissa-Voldemort interaction towards the end of the book).

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Choices - Aug 14, 2007 8:51 am (#78 of 91)
I think Narcissa was trying to keep Voldemort's attention away from her and her family. She was employing the old "don't make eye contact, don't look at the person and be very still" and maybe they won't notice you. It was almost like she was trying to disappear and she wanted her husband and son to do likewise.

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haymoni - Aug 17, 2007 5:07 pm (#79 of 91)
JK Rowling said that Draco would be good at Occlumency. I think Narcissa would be good at it also.

Obviously neither of them can touch Snape, but I could see Narcissa being able to shut down her emotions enough to block what she needed to.

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Madam Pince - Aug 17, 2007 9:33 pm (#80 of 91)
I read it like Choices did. I think Narcissa has had a little talk with both Lucius and Draco and instructed them to keep their mouths SHUT and their heads DOWN and they will hopefully get out of this mess all in one piece. She's clearly the boss at this point.

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legolas returns - Aug 17, 2007 11:36 pm (#81 of 91)
I thought that her deadpan face was a manifestation of shutting down emotions. Just before Snape is killed he has face is said to be masklike. He is obviously lying/not telling the truth at this fpoint.

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journeymom - Aug 27, 2007 11:05 am (#82 of 91)
Madam Pince, that was my impression of Narcissa at that point, too. Well put.

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Ana Cis - Sep 12, 2007 5:30 pm (#83 of 91)
I like to bring two techniques that JKR uses in her books. They are distractive mini-mysteries (that's what I call it), and narrative misdirection. I would like to go to each of the chapters and see if we can capture these scenes or plots.

Distractive mini-mystery is small mystery plot or scene within a chapter, that leaves the why, who, or how out until later on in the chapter, or in the subsequent chapter. We can see an example of this in Chapter 1 when Yaxley tells Snape that he (Yaxley) might be late and it was trickier that he expected, and then asks Snape if he?s confident of a good reception. JKR starts us right off with a suspenseful scene in just half a page. Then later in the chapter, we find out that Snape was discover the date and time Harry was being relocated; and that Yaxley was supposed find means to infiltrate the MoM and set up for its successful overthrow as soon as possible. JKR does these mini-mysteries in many/most of the chapters. This ways she keeps us distracted and sets us up beautifully for the narrative misdirection.

Narrative misdirection is when the author portrays a character or setting in a way that the reader develops their own conclusion about the character or plot only to find out later it was incorrect.

Again in Chapter 1, Snape tells Voldemort that the source they?d discussed?what source? ?Who? MYSTERY?.This source had disclosed the dated and time Harry would be moved. However, Yaxley had a different disclosed source, Dawlish (Dullish), providing a different date. Who?s right Snape or Yaxley? Is there another traitor in the Order? After all, Dumbledore?s dead. So are we being misdirected to believe that Snape is on Voldemort?s side?

If anybody reading this post, guessed that Dumbledore was the source the first time they read this chapter, please reply and let us know how you came to this conclusion, because I sure didn?t figure it out.

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mona amon - Sep 13, 2007 3:11 am (#84 of 91)
I didn't figure it out either, and I wasn't too pleased when I found out! Who do we blame if we want to? Dumbledore or his portrait? For me it was the biggest flaw in DH. I feel we could have have had the whole 'seven Potters' chase without anyone betraying the Order, since the DEs were watching Privet Drive anyway. I can't help feeling JKR wrote the whole thing just to make us think Snape was a 'very bad man'!

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Orion - Sep 17, 2007 12:25 pm (#85 of 91)
I find the peacocks funny because my family kept some on the farm and they were always crying so horribly, and so early in the morning, that nobody could stand them and they ended up as barbecues. (My grandparents were just too poor to throw food away - on a farm, you just eat up EVERYTHING.)

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Choices - Sep 17, 2007 2:31 pm (#86 of 91)
I bet peacock tastes like chicken. Doesn't everything? LOL

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PeskyPixie - Oct 17, 2007 1:16 pm (#87 of 91)
I've wanted to watch Snape-the-spy at work since the end of GoF. It's quite interesting to observe the nuances of his interactions with Death Eaters and the Dark Lord in contrast to those when he is with the Order, or with DD alone. It's also fun to examine Snape-the-spy at work in Spinner's End compared to him at Malfoy Manor.

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PeskyPixie - Oct 31, 2007 2:10 pm (#88 of 91)
I don't know if it's already been mentioned, but Charity is fortunate to die via LV's AK.

I wonder why LV doesn't let Nagini give her a truly horrifying end. Maybe because Nagini is a horcrux and he doesn't want to risk any chance of injury to her?

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Madam Pince - Nov 11, 2007 10:37 am (#89 of 91)
I hadn't thought of that before. It could be just a power-trip / ego thing. If Voldemort kills her via an AK, then it's him doing the killing, not Nagini, and letting Nagini eat her afterwards is then just to add to the "ick" factor and show all those watching how carelessly he treats those he kills. In other words, "I care very little for human life and even less for the bodies afterwards." I think the whole thing is staged for maximum impact on the Death Eaters around the table -- kind of a "Watch out or else this is how you'll end up!" sort of thing.

A funeral home near me runs an ad quoting someone famous (I apologize for not knowing who) which says basically "A society is judged by how it treats its dead." Compare and contrast how Voldemort treats Charity Burbage with how Harry treats a later deceased.

Not to give away things that happen in later chapters, but I don't think that Voldemort is afraid of Nagini being injured. He uses her a couple more times, at least.

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HungarianHorntail11 - May 23, 2008 3:17 pm (#90 of 91)
I think she wasn't important enough to warrant a fantastic or well-planned killing. 'Hang her for a while, intimidate the others to see if anyone buckles and then get rid of her' seemed to me the method behind the madness.

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Madam Pince - May 28, 2008 2:36 am (#91 of 91)
Here's that quote:

Show me the manner in which a nation cares for its dead, and I will measure the tender mercies of its people, their loyalty to high ideals, and their regard for the laws of the land. --William Gladstone, 1809-1898, four-time Prime Minister of Great Britain

Fits nicely for both Voldemort and Harry, doesn't it?

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Mona Sun Sep 25, 2011 1:47 am

Kip Carter - Jul 19, 2007 2:32 am
Edited Jul 25, 2007 12:20 am
This thread is to discuss Only of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows!

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Madam Pince - Jul 21, 2007 6:11 am (#1 of 23)
More questions than answers here. OK, so what happened to Ariana Dumbledore? Why did it make Albus feel guilty? Is that the cave memory? Must be.

The "flash of brightest blue" is giving me some hope!

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Jenniffler - Jul 21, 2007 8:05 pm (#2 of 23)
Very important to me--Harry is not laying down at our first glimpse of him.He cleaned his trunk. Is he related to Petunia or something? Now I care about Albus as a kid, I never did before.

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Finn BV - Jul 21, 2007 8:36 pm (#3 of 23)
I was quite interested to be reading about the Dumbledores -- I have been dying for his backstory forever, and the fact that he didn't come a nice lovey-dovey family made him much more realistic, and much more powerful in my mind at the same time.

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Ann - Jul 22, 2007 7:01 am (#4 of 23)
Quite an interesting back story for DD. For me, the most surprising thing was that Elphias Doge was the same age as Dumbledore. I'd always assumed that Dumbledore was unusually old, but perhaps living past 150 is not that uncommon. (After all, Madam Marchbanks is clearly older.)

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Solitaire - Jul 22, 2007 9:10 pm (#5 of 23)
When I first saw the name Ariana and the hint that she had been a Squib, what popped into my mind? Mrs. Figg! I was sure I was going to read along and find out that she was Dumbledore's sister in disguise. Oh, well ...

Solitaire

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essie125 - Jul 22, 2007 11:53 pm (#6 of 23)
But now we still don't know what Dudley encountered during his Dementor attack. And I thought that would have been explained by Jo?

I thought she said so in an interview. One more thing about this book, that makes me think she has been rushing to get this book finished.

And what happens to the Dursleys? do thye arrive at their hiding place safely.

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TomProffitt - Jul 23, 2007 4:08 am (#7 of 23)
Solitaire, I thought that, too.

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M A Grimmett - Jul 23, 2007 6:49 am (#8 of 23)
I was kind of sorry that Harry tossed his house and Quidditch robes and all. I'm sentimental, I like to hang on to things like that! But it was very fitting that he was putting aside childish things.

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Solitaire - Jul 23, 2007 10:51 am (#9 of 23)
Harry knew he was going to be on the move, and I think that is why he left so many things behind. He was paring down to the basics.

Solitaire

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Mediwitch - Jul 23, 2007 4:45 pm (#10 of 23)
Ooh, Soli, I thought the same thing about Ariana! I was SURE she would be Mrs. Figg.

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Ann - Jul 24, 2007 9:45 am (#11 of 23)
One of the advantages of re-reading: In Elphias Doge's eulogy of Dumbledore, he says, "He died as he lived: working always for the greater good, and to his last hour, willing to stretch out a hand to a small boy...." That short phrase has so many interesting echoes, not only of the last conversation with Draco on the Astronomy Tower. (I know Draco was neither small nor recovering from dragon pox--unless being Lucius's dragon could be seen as a pox, which I think it might.

Interesting, too, that it was thinking, rather than speaking a name, that seems to have activated the mirror in some way.

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haymoni - Jul 24, 2007 6:10 pm (#12 of 23)
I had high hopes for that mirror.

I never thought of Arabella Figg when I read about Ariana.

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Allison R - Jul 24, 2007 9:11 pm (#13 of 23)
Ann, doesn't Draco's name mean dragon, though? So there was a dragon element present on the astronomy tower that night, in a way...

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Ann - Jul 25, 2007 4:54 am (#14 of 23)
That's what I meant about him being Lucius's dragon--his name.

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Soul Mate for Sirius - Jul 25, 2007 9:03 am (#15 of 23)
Did anyone else cry when reading the article by Dodge? I cried like a baby! My blood also boiled along with Harry's when I read Rita's interview about her biography. That woman obviously learned NOTHING from Hermione's punishment! GRRR...

-Jenn

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Choices - Jul 25, 2007 3:37 pm (#16 of 23)
We are told in this chapter (in the article about Rita Skeeter's new book) that Harry gave evidence against Snape. That is how the Wizarding world found out that Snape had killed Dumbledore.

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Remi - Jul 26, 2007 8:35 am (#17 of 23)
Yeah Soulmate for Sirius - I was bawling reading the Doge article. Sad

And I really would love to have seen both Rita & Umbridge get what they deserve.

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Solitaire - Jul 26, 2007 11:55 am (#18 of 23)
I really would love to have seen both Rita & Umbridge get what they deserve.

Well, Remi ... we can always hope they do! Perhaps we will find out what happens to them, if Jo decides to write Hogwarts: A History. Surely the events in DH must find their way into such a volume!

Solitaire

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Choices - Jul 26, 2007 12:09 pm (#19 of 23)
JKR said in a Today Show interview this morning that she will be writing an "encyclopedia" about the wizarding world. Yes!!!!!

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Solitaire - Jul 26, 2007 12:21 pm (#20 of 23)
I'd like more, Choices. I'd truly LOVE her to write Hogwarts: A HIstory. And I'd like the cover to look like a big, old, dusty book. LOL

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PatPat - Jul 28, 2007 3:24 pm (#21 of 23)
I, too, cried over the eulogy about Dumbledore. He is, to this day, my favorite character and, to find out that he is not perfect simply strengthens him in my mind. I also boiled with rage over the Rita Skeeter article. Some people just never learn their lesson.

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rambkowalczyk - Jul 29, 2007 11:56 am (#22 of 23)
Regarding Rita Skeeter's article, I was thinking that Hermione would turn her in for being an Unregistered Animagus but somehow I think Hermione would deduce that the accusation wouldn't be investigated thoroughly.

Also noticed that Charity Burbage must have been in captivity for at least two weeks. Harry notes soon after he comes home that she has resigned from Hogwarts. That would be the end of June beginning of July. On the day she was killed Snape said Harry was leaving the Dursleys this Saturday and that his birthday was next week.

I did a reread on the begining chapters before I had finished the book and thought that Aberforth was the person contacting Snape telling him the true date of Harry's departure. I thought that Aberforth might be the traitor. Based on Skeeter's article which had to have some truth hiding in there, I thought Aberforth might have some long term resentment over Albus' success.

When I read about Dumbledore's father I thought of Sirius Black who rebelled against his family and that the way Albus rebelled against his family was much more grander. He never once said anything against his father or against the Muggles.

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Steve Newton - Jul 31, 2007 4:39 pm (#23 of 23)
Observations

Dudley is trying to be nice to Harry. It almost makes me want to know more of his story.

Not even Hermione was as good in school as Dumbledore was.

Aberforth is the younger Dumbledore and seems to have been a brawler. Sort of like Sirius?

Dumbledore vs Grindelwald I'd like to hear that story.

From the conversation between Dumbledore and McGonagall in SS/PS I had wondered if Dumbledore knew the Dark Arts. McGonagall says that he is too noble to use them not that he doesn't know them.

Aberforth goat incident seems to have occurred about the time, or slightly after, Harry got his scar.

JKR actually gives us a complete article!

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Mona Sun Sep 25, 2011 1:52 am

Kip Carter - Jul 19, 2007 2:43 am
Edited Jul 25, 2007 12:18 am
This thread is to discuss Only Chapter Three - The Dursleys Departing of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows!

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Madam Pince - Jul 21, 2007 6:14 am (#1 of 50)
Well, I sure didn't expect that from Dudders! I'm sincerely hoping this is not the last we hear of the Dursleys -- we still don't know what Dudley saw with the dementors. Didn't JKR say we'd find that out? Maybe I'm imagining. And I still want to know about "that awful boy" and how Pet knew about dementors and Azkaban.

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Caius Iulius - Jul 21, 2007 6:35 am (#2 of 50)
Well done Dudley!

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Luna Logic - Jul 21, 2007 7:59 am (#3 of 50)
Why does Harry is saying that there are thousands Dementors "in this time" (p. 35)[/b]? Where do they come from ? or How are they produced?

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MickeyCee3948 - Jul 21, 2007 8:00 am (#4 of 50)
Really, Dudley was a real shock and Petunia almost was civil and acted like she might miss Harry or was at least worried about him.

Mickey

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sstabeler - Jul 21, 2007 9:17 am (#5 of 50)
I think Harry means that there is over 1000 Dementors in existence, compared to the two that Dudley thought were in existence. As for where they come from, my guess would be Voldemort's HQ.

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Holly T. - Jul 21, 2007 4:44 pm (#6 of 50)
I was so proud of Dudley! Shocked, really.

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Ms Amanda - Jul 21, 2007 4:51 pm (#7 of 50)
Good for Dudley! I'm glad he is thinking on his own a bit and beginning to lead the family. He's the one who has to overcome all the rubbish he has been taught by his parents. There is absolutely no reason that he can't overcome it when he is being protected and helped by magic, rather than threatened or pig-tailed by it.

I was confused at first when Dudley asked about where Harry was going. I thought that people were just treating him like a kid and hadn't told him where Harry was going or that Harry was treating it as a state secret or something. I never dreamt that Dudley didn't realize that Harry didn't feel like part of the family unit. In Vernon's words, that Harry didn't want to go with them.

Petunia seemed actually human here. I think it was the best characterization I've seen of her. I enjoyed seeing her always on the verge of saying something.

Better yet, I'm really proud of Harry for how he reacted to Dudley. It was adult. And really quite touching.

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Cerpin Taxt - Jul 21, 2007 5:10 pm (#8 of 50)
And I think in HBP they say the fog is there because the Dementors are multiplying. Can anyone look into that?

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Jenniffler - Jul 21, 2007 8:19 pm (#9 of 50)
Yay Big D. Even though what you see is what you get, I was glad Dudley said goodbye.

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Finn BV - Jul 21, 2007 8:37 pm (#10 of 50)
Anybody else get the sense from this chapter that we were going to see more of the Dursleys later on? I mean, don't you think it's a bit odd they just pack up and go with wizards?

But yay Dudley, yay family, that was great. This was one of a bunch of moments where I said "yay" aloud to no one.

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nthdavid - Jul 22, 2007 12:29 am (#11 of 50)
In the first chapter of HBP, "The Other Minister" Fudge says that the mist is caused by the dementors breeding.

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Ann - Jul 22, 2007 7:05 am (#12 of 50)
I thought Dudley was really abnormally slow here. Wasn't he a bit more articulate when he was younger? Perhaps his wrestling or whatever it was has affected his mind? I'm sorry that Dudley didn't give us a clue what it was he experienced during the dementor attack. Whatever it was, it appears to have been a life-changing experience.

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Geber - Jul 22, 2007 1:46 pm (#13 of 50)
I wasn't too suprised about Dudley. Back in HBP, Dumbledore seemed to view Dudley as a more-or-less innocent victum of his upbringing. I suspected that Dudley would get himself into shape (in DH he is described as "muscular", not fat), and when we first met the Dursleys in DH, I expected Dudley to not be there. Insted, I thought he would be off doing something worthwhile.

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Mediwitch - Jul 22, 2007 6:32 pm (#14 of 50)
I so loved Harry's response to Dudley: "Blimey, Dudley," said Harry over Aunt Petunia's renewed sobs, "did the dementors blow a different personality into you?"

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freshwater - Jul 22, 2007 7:05 pm (#15 of 50)
It was good to see that even Dudley could learn from an experience like being saved from dementors. I think that, given nearly a year to mull it over, he came to realize that Harry had helped him out even though Dudley had clearly never given Harry any reason to want to help him.

Then his repeated questioning of where Harry would be going, seemed to me to indicate a kernel of concern for Harry's welfare. That was nice to see.

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Chemyst - Jul 23, 2007 6:37 am (#16 of 50)
It started in Chapter 2 and was reconfirmed here: This isn't a story about kids anymore.

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M A Grimmett - Jul 23, 2007 6:54 am (#17 of 50)
I was glad to see, in the end, that Dudley was a bit better than his parents. I also like to think that perhaps he snuck some of the things Harry discarded.

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I Am Used Vlad - Jul 23, 2007 9:32 am (#18 of 50)
I liked the bit with Dudley. Chalk one up for timrew; they're like brothers.

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Solitaire - Jul 23, 2007 11:00 am (#19 of 50)
I was touched to see "the Dud" act like a human being. I was disappointed, though, that he didn't talk about what he saw during the Dementor attack--or did he? Perhaps he saw Harry saving him. Perhaps the Dementor attack itself was the worst thing that had happened to him, so he was aware during it. I'm surprised, though, that this seemingly changed Dudley has not talked to Harry about the whole thing in nearly 2 years. Then again, he probably was told not to by Vernon and Petunia.

Solitaire

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TomProffitt - Jul 23, 2007 1:08 pm (#20 of 50)
I got the impression that Dudley was less worried about Harry's welfare than he was about who was going to protect Dudley and his parents if Harry did not accompany them. It's not a wonderful attitude to have, but as Harry said, it was a tremendous improvement.

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Solitaire - Jul 23, 2007 4:42 pm (#21 of 50)
LOL Tom! I can't deny that the same thought entered my mind, as well. I also think the Dud just isn't particularly bright, and he assumed Harry would be continuing with them on the same basis as always ... despite Dumbledore's explanation from the previous summer.

Then again, the tea cup business outside Harry's door ... It's possible that Dudley is simply a perfect example of taking someone for granted until that moment you realize you are never going to see him again. For Dud's sake, I hope that he has, at long last, learned to value Harry, because it will inform and enrich his life forever, if it's true.

Solitaire

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Ann - Jul 24, 2007 10:52 am (#22 of 50)
Rowling said in an interview somewhere (I know, I know--but I'm not looking up the reference with hundreds of DH pages yet to re-read) that the Dursley parents were pretty much beyond redemption. To me that implied that Dudley wasn't.

And I agree, as I so often do, with Solitaire. Dudley is not just regretting Harry's presence because he wants his protection. The cup of tea is such a useless, pathetic, and yet telling gesture. (JKR is so good at that!) I hope the Big D gets along well with Hestia and Daedalus and learns a bit more about his cousin in the process.

And I loved Harry's using that nickname without irony when he wished his cousin luck. Harry's growing up. As Chemyst pointed out, cleaning his trunk out is a good sign (those Petunia genes kicking in, I suppose), and being civil to his obviously conciliatory cousin is another.

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gankomon - Jul 24, 2007 1:53 pm (#23 of 50)
Well, Dudley came through. Good for Dudley! The only one of the three who actually made an effort, and he comes off as more mature than either of his parents. I loved that Harry said "perhaps" at the idea of seeing them again, though it is pretty obvious that it won't be for quiter some time. It wouldd be nice if Dudley and Harry came to some kind of understanding- that might make up at least partially for all the mistreatment that the Dursleys have handed Harry for almost sixteen years.

And if anyone recalls- Dedalus Diggle was one of the persons Harry met when he didn't know- a tiny man in a shop bowed to harry, who was promptly bustled out without Petunia buying anything. It will be interesting to see what happens when Dudley hears the truth about his cousin from people who clearly are charter members of the Harry Potter Fan Club. I don't think Vernon will be too pleased at hearing about his nephew, the hero. *snicker*

Regards,

gankomon

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haymoni - Jul 24, 2007 6:15 pm (#24 of 50)
I absolutely loved that Dudley came around.

I am disappointed, however, that we did not see Harry have a heart-to-heart with Pet.

Vernon is a jerk.

Where did they actually take the Dursleys????

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Marie E. - Jul 25, 2007 7:41 am (#25 of 50)
I hope they took them somewhere very, very wizardish.

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legolas returns - Jul 25, 2007 1:20 pm (#26 of 50)
I was quite surprised by this chapter. I was hoping that Petunia was going to come out with a revelation about her sister. I was glad that Dudley finally accepted that it was not Harry messing with his mind and he was thankful for having his life saved.

I would love to have seen them some time in the future meet up and at least be civil to each other again when its all over.

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Solitaire - Jul 25, 2007 5:47 pm (#27 of 50)
LOL Haymoni! Once again, you cut to the chase!

Ann, I agree that the cup of tea business is a pathetic gesture, but I think it reveals rather clearly the extent of Dudley's social skills. I was pleased to see Dudley show a glimmer of humanity, and I was equally pleased that Harry accepted and honored his intent rather than being flippant or sarcastic (which he could have done). I'd like to know where the Dursleys are, too ... and what kind of job Uncle Vernon is doing these days.

Solitaire

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Finn BV - Jul 25, 2007 7:14 pm (#28 of 50)
I was reminded of Dudley "drinking tea" at all his friends' houses in Chapter 1 of OOP. Instead, this time, it was actually tea. This chapter demonstrated that Harry is not the only one maturing.

Count me into the club that was shocked to come to the next chapter without Petunia doing much at all.

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Ann - Jul 26, 2007 2:15 am (#29 of 50)
I was also a bit surprised that Petunia did not reveal anything about Lily to Harry. And of course I expected her to whip out a box of old letters from the compartment under the squeaky stair. But after thinking about it, that moment of hesitation where she almost says something, and then doesn't, is both more effective and more in character. She knows something that would help Harry understand things, and she's not going to give him a thing.

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Soul Search - Jul 26, 2007 6:29 am (#30 of 50)
Ann,

"She knows something that would help Harry understand things, and she's not going to give him a thing."

Very good point. I didn't, yet, know that on my first read and, rather, glossed over it on my second.

She made the "awful boy" comment in OotP and never responded to Harry's "do you mean my father?" Petunia could have told Harry about Lily and Snape, at least up to when they off to Hogwarts. She probably even knew something of the story through "mudblood" and, certainly, about Lily and James.

I was surprised that the Evans family grew up anywhere near "Spinner's End." I think I ruled out any kind of childhood association between Lily and Snape because I thought, after HBP, their respective economic status would rule it out.

We, sort of, learned why Petunia thought her sister a "freak" and why she resented the wizarding world. We never learned anything about why Vernon seemed to have an even stronger prejudice. Could he just be responding to Petunia's ranting?

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M A Grimmett - Jul 26, 2007 6:36 am (#31 of 50)
I always thought that Vernon was such a closed-minded fellow, so unwilling to accept new possibilities, accustomed to being a BMOC, that anything that upset his worldview was automatically bad, worthy of derision and contempt. He probably only found out about wizards after Pet, so I think his knee-jerk reaction is to look at them with an air of superiority, hating the not standard way of dressing they have, their out-of-the-ordinary abilities. His intolerance was probably heightened by having to raise one of "them", who is clearly inferior to normal Dudders.

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Good Evans - Jul 26, 2007 11:42 am (#32 of 50)
I dont think that Petunia does think that Lily or Harry are freaks, I know she has used those words but, it is a defensive mechanism she was bitterly dissapointed as a child, Lily's sister but not with an ounce of magical ability, She resented that she was left out. WE know this from Lil's words about writing to DD. She just built this resentment up and took it out on Harry - Harry was a reminder of her own failings not of her sisters "brilliance". I was disapointed that Petunia wasn't big enough to sit down with Harry and tell him about his mothers childhood.

Petunia forced to a normal life, with anti magic Vernon, and even her son has no abilities - more disapointment over and over for her.

I dont like Petunia, I dont condone her, but I think her reasons are a little more complex than dislike or resentment of her sister. Ultimatelt she was extremely self cenetred, "If I can't have magic powers then I wont let there be a magic world."

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valuereflection - Jul 26, 2007 5:17 pm (#33 of 50)
What did Vernon mean when he said, "If we'd even seen CVs..." Thanks in advance for the help.

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Mediwitch - Jul 26, 2007 5:21 pm (#34 of 50)
CV = curriculum vitae; similar to a résumé.

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Choices - Jul 26, 2007 5:41 pm (#35 of 50)
That stumped me too, ValueReflection. I finally decided that he must have meant "DE's" - you know how he is always calling magical things by a twisted name. They were talking about either leaving or not leaving. Vernon couldn't make up his mind, and I think he was saying that if they had just seen some DE's around it would make it easier to decide to leave.

I suppose a resume would work, but it seems like a very obscure reference. I have never heard one called a CV, but perhaps it is a common abbreviation in Britain.

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Allison R - Jul 26, 2007 9:50 pm (#36 of 50)
CV is used in the UK much more than resume is, I believe (although I bow to our members on the other side of the pond!) I have heard the term here in the US but I first heard it years ago-- from a friend in Britian.

I took it to mean that Vernon wanted Kingsley, and if he couldn't have Kingsley to watch over them then he was offended that he didn't even get to look at resumes and choose what other Auror might be qualified (or worthy) of the job of watching over his family.

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Ann - Jul 27, 2007 3:40 am (#37 of 50)
CV is used in American academia, rather than resume, and they are somewhat different. They are more bare-bones than a resume, with no sections for goals or hobbies or the responsibilities that previous positions entailed, and usually including a list of academic publications.

Given that it's a Latin term associated with academics, it probably has status implications, and Vernon is probably trying (and failing, as usual) to show off. Or it may be because JKR was a teacher, and when she applied for jobs, she submitted a c.v., so she's just used that term without thinking. (I didn't even notice it when I read the chapter.)

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Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 27, 2007 7:53 am (#38 of 50)
For applying for a UK job you are generally asked for a cv, whether or not there is an application form. In the UK cv's list education, qualifications and hobbies. Vernon wanted to know how qualified his protection were in his eyes - the snob.

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Choices - Jul 27, 2007 9:25 am (#39 of 50)
Thanks everyone. Your explanations make a lot of sense. I have two daughters who are in Education - one a PhD. and one a Master's Degree and neither had heard that particular term - "CV", so I just came up with my own explanation. LOL Silly me!

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Nicoline Vance - Jul 27, 2007 10:30 am (#40 of 50)
I don't have my book with me, but didn't Harry say that when Dudley said that he (Harry) wasn't a waste of space, that was as good as I love you. (Criminy, what lousy sentence structure!)

I don't think Dudley ever learned how to give a complement, or show affection, or even how to be civil. His parents' blind adoration must have become smothering to him by his mid-teens. He wouldn't know how normal humans talk.

I would like to think that Vernon and Petunia were forced to share a cupboard under the stairs at a wizarding family home. Dudley could have the second smaller bedroom, for his change of heart.

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haymoni - Jul 27, 2007 7:09 pm (#41 of 50)
What did he see during the Dementor attack??????????

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PatPat - Jul 28, 2007 3:31 pm (#42 of 50)
I actually cracked up over the CV comment. Ann is correct that we use them here in the US in academic jobs. As I am a teacher I am very familiar with them. It was perfect. It just showed how difficult it is for Uncle Vernon to see past the world he is used to.

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rambkowalczyk - Jul 29, 2007 12:06 pm (#43 of 50)
I too was touched by Dudley's comments to Harry and was disappointed that Petunia didn't say anything more. This chapter was written with the right amount of humor and sensitivity. (Not sure what word I'm looking for here.

Thanks to whoever explained what a CV was.

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Steve Newton - Aug 3, 2007 10:33 am (#44 of 50)
Comments

Would Harry have come to rescue the Dursleys?

Dudley speaks up twice.

Hedwig never flies again.

Dudley says, "See you, Harry." I hope that he does see Harry again. (In a sequel, perhaps.)

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PatPat - Aug 3, 2007 4:44 pm (#45 of 50)
Would Harry have come to rescue the Dursleys? Steve Newton

I believe that he would. Besides the fact that they are his only living relatives, it is Harry's nature. He saved Draco and Goyle from the fiendfyre and does not even want to curse Stan Shunpike when he is attacking him.

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Mediwitch - Aug 3, 2007 5:17 pm (#46 of 50)
He already saved Dudley from the Dementors in OoP; I think he would do it for all of them. It's that "saving people thing".

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zelmia - Aug 4, 2007 2:04 pm (#47 of 50)
I can't help wondering what Molly Weasley would have done, had she been there to witness Vernon and Petunia's appalling behaviour.

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haymoni - Aug 4, 2007 5:06 pm (#48 of 50)
I think we would have heard the "B" word again!

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Potteraholic - Aug 4, 2007 7:43 pm (#49 of 50)
Zelmia, I was rereading OotP again today and just finished the chapter where Dumbledore sends Petunia the howler, "Remember my last." And then I thought of the time Dumbledore visted the Dursleys in HBP, and remarked upon their bad manners and inhospitality, "... accidental rudeness occurs alarmingly often..." So I had a similar reaction to you, substituting Molly with Dumbledore, may he rest in peace. Imagine what his voice would have sounded like at the pathetic non-farewell the Dursley parents bade Harry!

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Madam Pince - Aug 17, 2007 10:10 pm (#50 of 50)
I think that bit of writing JKR did where she said Harry and Uncle Vernon were wondering the same thing in the same instant was an absolutely brilliant bit of writing. So understated. Perfect.

I think Harry would've tried to rescue them, too. The "saving people thing" as Mediwitch said.

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Mona Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:12 am

Kip Carter - Jul 19, 2007 2:50 am
Edited Jul 25, 2007 12:18 am
This thread is to discuss Only of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows!

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Madam Pince - Jul 21, 2007 6:19 am (#1 of 79)
Ooooo! I absolutely hate it when authors do that!!! Why do they always want to kill the pet? Arrrrgh! Why, why, why??? Grrrrr....

OK, because she screeched first, I'm telling myself it wasn't an AK, and she escaped the cage when the motorcycle blasted, and will turn up later. (I also tell myself that the howling wolf at the end of Dances With Wolves is Two Socks or Three Socks or whatever...)

I'm a bit confused about AKs. I thought all the humans we've seen who've been hit just drop dead soundlessly. But the fox Bella got at the beginning of HBP yelped, didn't it? Maybe that wasn't an AK? Maybe this wasn't?

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Luna Logic - Jul 21, 2007 1:45 pm (#2 of 79)
Edited by Jul 21, 2007 2:47 pm
I'm with you on that loss, Madam Pince, hoping for the best...
(And I was worried after reading : why didn't Harry let her find her way alone? Why transport her in a cage?)
So I must agree: it's the wish of the Author !

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Madam Pince - Jul 21, 2007 2:41 pm (#3 of 79)
Anybody else thinking that Dumbledore is the one who directed Harry's wand at Voldemort? Golden fire sounds like Dumbledore to me...

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Anna L. Black - Jul 21, 2007 2:59 pm (#4 of 79)
As I'm still willing to believe Snape is on the good side, I think it might have been him... A few more hours will tell (Although it's 2 a.m. where I am, perhaps I should go to sleep...)

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Cerpin Taxt - Jul 21, 2007 4:02 pm (#5 of 79)
OMG i loved this chapter. The chase is awsome. And when Hagrid jumps of to protect Harry I was like J.K. better not kill him or else I am going to AAARRRGHHHHHH!!!!!!!!! It was a really touching.

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Holly T. - Jul 21, 2007 4:45 pm (#6 of 79)
Oh, poor Hedwig! First time I cried.

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Lady Nagini - Jul 21, 2007 4:59 pm (#7 of 79)
My heart went out to Harry when he lost both the Firebolt and Hedwig in the span of about 30 seconds. It seemed to be some sort of ominous foreshadowing, a "this is the first of many losses" type of thing. It didn't help that both represented significant stages in Harry's life: the Firebolt was a connection to Sirius, while Hedwig was one of the first magical things that Harry owned.

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Nymphadora - Jul 21, 2007 5:03 pm (#8 of 79)
Hedwig was the first victim of the book... I couldn't believe that she was dead, and I had to tell myself that Harry could not have been killed in Ch.4 in order to continue reading... but it told me that this last one will be harsh and innocents will probably die aplenty Sad

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Choices - Jul 21, 2007 6:13 pm (#9 of 79)
Actually, someone died in chapter one. The Muggle Studies teacher.

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Nymphadora - Jul 21, 2007 6:14 pm (#10 of 79)
Ouch Choices... I stand corrected. I was so chilled with "Dinner, Nagini" and yet I forgot poor Burbage!

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Choices - Jul 21, 2007 6:15 pm (#11 of 79)
LOL I'm keeping a record of the deaths in the back of my book - that's why I remembered her.

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Thom Matheson - Jul 21, 2007 7:50 pm (#12 of 79)
I don't understand the reason to off Hedwig. Lady Nagini, you are probably correct, but I juat didn't see the need for it.

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Lady Nagini - Jul 21, 2007 8:05 pm (#13 of 79)
The only way I can justify Hedwig's death is by calling it a harbinger of lost innocence. Harry first got her when he was a wide-eyed eleven year old, when the world was still full of wonder and possibilities. DH is very much the end of that innocence and charm (at least for his generation).

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Jenniffler - Jul 21, 2007 8:26 pm (#14 of 79)
Chapter Four the Seven Potters.

Seven! Essense of Potter is golden, Polyjuice with a punch.

Good plan. Incredible perilous fight. LOVED the motorbike returning in full Weasley mode. Hedwig--That's just not fair. Evil Deatheaters! bah!

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Finn BV - Jul 21, 2007 8:39 pm (#15 of 79)
Boohoo Hedwig. I didn't believe it at first, especially as she's the drawing on the inside cover!

I'm a bit confused -- how does Voldemort fly? Does he like walk on air, or is he doing a first-movie-Quirrelesque flying-through-the air, as if he's being pulled by an invisible rope?

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MickeyCee3948 - Jul 21, 2007 8:59 pm (#16 of 79)
I think Hedwig had to go to keep the rest of the book moving. You couldn't exactly have her flying to Harry at every stop they made along their journey. It seemed that they had to be seperated from the WW in order for the trek to work. JM2K's

Mickey

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Connie1983 - Jul 22, 2007 5:59 am (#17 of 79)
Hedwigs death was the first 'gasp-moment' for me too, it just seemed to cruel for him to loose her too after all the people that died over the years. I was going like 'no..don't take her away from him too!'

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Madam Pince - Jul 22, 2007 6:47 am (#18 of 79)
Finn, that's funny -- I had the opposite feeling when I saw that the inside cover drawing was of Hedwig asleep with her head under her wing. I said "Uh-oh!" right off... I felt a little better when there was an actual description of that pictured scene, but I still felt this little pull... Chemyst had started me thinking about it awhile ago.

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Ann - Jul 22, 2007 7:11 am (#19 of 79)
I was really sorry that Hedwig died when she and Harry were at odds. But I think she had to, both as a symbol of the death of Harry's innocent fascination with the wizarding world (she was a gift from Hagrid, that first day, remember?) and also for logistical reasons. They're going to be moving around a lot, hunting for Horcruxes, and you can't pack an owl in a trunk.

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mysweetdar - Jul 22, 2007 8:12 am (#20 of 79)
I was shocked he lost our sweet Hedwig!!! Yes, I cried!!! Who wouldn't want her for a companion?...I suppose, as you say, it made sense...all that moving around, and all that fighting.....where would she be?..I guess they couldn't let her fly herself away, cuz the plan of action was so dangerous....but, sweet Hedwig...*sob*

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Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 22, 2007 12:59 pm (#21 of 79)
I wept when Hedwig died. Harry going round sharing his memories then... Alas poor Hedwig. Please Jo tell us she isn't really dead. That Mrs Figg came and rescued her after the Death Eaters had gone and nursed her back to health. Please!

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Mediwitch - Jul 22, 2007 6:48 pm (#22 of 79)
I noticed Mr. Weasley's spectacles were "a little awry" - reminded me of Dumbledore's when he got blasted off the tower and made me nervous for Mr. Weasley.

7 Harry Potters, it made me think of 7 bits of LV's soul, only it's done in love for Harry, not fear of death.

I love that Polyjuice of Harry turned bright gold! More gold later in the chapter when his wand shoots golden fire at LV.

Harry lost a tooth, wonder what that means symbolically?

Accio Hagrid! I was worried for Harry there for a minute! Can you imagine if that had worked! (Of course, I was terrified for Hagrid, but goodness, if that had worked poor Harry would have been smushed.)

Selwyn. I want to comment on this later. I hope I remember.

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freshwater - Jul 22, 2007 7:14 pm (#23 of 79)
While dinner for Nagini (ch. 1) was pretty horrifying, my first real emotion of horror was when Hedwig was killed....just couldn't believe that Harry had lost her, and so early in the book, too.

I also noticed that, when the Firebolt and the cage began to fall, Harry called for and grabbed for Hedwig....yet another example that he has his priorites sorted.

Ending this chapter with Hagrid spread eagled on the ground and the next chapter entitled "Fallen Warrior"....makes me very,very nervous!

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Viola Intonada - Jul 22, 2007 7:23 pm (#24 of 79)
I have to admit, after reading this chapter, I skipped to the end of the book and read the final chapter. My stomach couldn't take reading that much and not knowing. Argh!

JKR didn't beat around the bush starting this book out.

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Miss Malaprop - Jul 23, 2007 3:14 am (#25 of 79)
It sounds heartless, but I laughed when Harry tried to Accio Hagrid - I mean, as if!

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Holly T. - Jul 23, 2007 6:32 am (#26 of 79)
The picture of Hedwig on the title page--remember what the picture is on the title page of OotP? Padfoot. And poor Hedwig. Innocence lost. And she couldn't have gone into hiding with them, couldn't have delivered messages, and she was Harry's connection to the magical world when he was at Privet Drive, where he will never be again.

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Nymphadora - Jul 23, 2007 8:54 am (#27 of 79)
Oh dear I remember now, I read the Seven Potters and thought "not Harry, please, not split". Then I almost cried for Hedwig, and was sure that Hagrid had been the Fallen Warrior. I put the book down and thought "I can't cope with both being dead in the fourth chapter, how many is JKR going to butcher in the next 500 pages?!!"

I'm laughing now, but it was a terrible moment for me!

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 24, 2007 10:49 am (#28 of 79)
Am curious...."It sounds heartless, but I laughed when Harry tried to Accio Hagrid - I mean, as if!" If you had been along for the ride, how would you have responded? As if just don't cover it...

...toddles off elsewhere...

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haymoni - Jul 24, 2007 6:20 pm (#29 of 79)
Too many "H"s in this chapter!

Too many connections between the "H"s in this chapter.

Hagrid bringing Harry in the motorbike, Harry in the motorbike again.

Hagrid buys Hedwig for Harry. Hedwig dying like that.

It reminded me of Fawkes swooping in - she took the "bullet" for Harry.

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Soul Mate for Sirius - Jul 25, 2007 9:25 am (#30 of 79)
I too sobbed with Hedwig died! I also said aloud, "If she's not safe, no one is!!" I felt it was a VERY scary beginning to the adventure, but that perhaps JK is trying to tell us not to get comfortable, no one's safe!!

Miss Malaprop- I laughed a little too when Harry tried to Accio Hagrid, but then cried even harder when it didn't work! I mean, the way Hagrid just threw himself off that bike without a second thought! It was so touching and so true of everything we've ever seen of Hagrid!!

Does anyone else find it insane that LV can FLY??? I was wondering if that were some kind of Dark magic, because we've never seen anyone else do it (and if it were just normal, but very difficult magic, I'm sure DD would have been able to do it!!). That made him even more frightening to me!

Oh! And the golden fire from Harry's wand?!? I like the idea of it being DD who turned his wand, because I couldn't help being reminded of Fawkes and the way he disappears in flames. Who knows?

So much to talk about in this chapter! It was so touching that so many people were willing to risk their lives to get Harry to safety! I pray everyone makes it back to the Burrow!!

-Jenn

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 25, 2007 10:14 am (#31 of 79)
"Does anyone else find it insane that LV can FLY??? I was wondering if that were some kind of Dark magic, because we've never seen anyone else do it (and if it were just normal, but very difficult magic, I'm sure DD would have been able to do it!!)"

Remember at the end of PS/SS, Dumbledore intercepted Hermione's owl, methinks we have seen other powerful wizards with the ability to fly.

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deletedaccount - Jul 25, 2007 10:53 am (#32 of 79)
"Does anyone else find it insane that LV can FLY??? I was wondering if that were some kind of Dark magic, because we've never seen anyone else do it (and if it were just normal, but very difficult magic, I'm sure DD would have been able to do it!!). That made him even more frightening to me! "

Voldemort can fly because he is so full of hot air.

He flew away at end of SS too (unless that is movie contamination?)

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Choices - Jul 25, 2007 3:25 pm (#33 of 79)
Edited Jul 25, 2007 4:58 pm
Mezuzas - "He flew away at end of SS too..."

It was his soul bit that flew away - it was inhabiting Quirrell and when Quirrell died, the soul bit came out of him and flew away. In DH it is his body that flies - a bit trickier than just a soul bit.

I liked the way the motorcycle and Hagrid bring us full circle from the first instance that we see this in PS/SS, to DH when we see it again.

We find out how the MOM tracks underage magic - The Trace.

Harry will be able to take a Portkey to the Burrow from Tonks' parent's house. Who authorized the Portkey? Dumbledore is gone and surely they didn't trust the MOM. Curious.

I argued that Hagrid didn't arrive at the shack on the rock in the sea on the motorcycle, but from what he says to Harry, maybe he did. "We'll be on the bike, brooms an' thestrals can't take me weight, see." I really thought he flew to the rock on a Thestral.

*serves self a helping of crow** It's interesting that the motorcycle roared like a dragon.

I believe it was definitely an AK that hit Hedwig and the screech must have simply been an involuntary response (like the fox) to being hit with the curse.

I think the strangely blank face of Stan Shunpike indicates he is under the Imperius Curse.

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Suzan - Jul 25, 2007 4:25 pm (#34 of 79)
My thought exactly, Choices. Harry first arrived at Privet Drive on the motorcyle, and now he is leaving it for the last time the same way.

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geauxtigers - Jul 25, 2007 7:04 pm (#35 of 79)
Any ideas about how Harry's wand acted of its own accord? My mom suggested DD did it was well. I think its possible, but how could it be possible? I really want to know! LOL

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Ann - Jul 26, 2007 2:44 am (#36 of 79)
Choices: "We find out how the MOM tracks underage magic - The Trace."

Did anyone else notice that this directly contradicts what Dumbledore told Harry in HBP 17? He said that the Ministry tracks places where magic is not supposed to be done, but they can't tell who does it. (This fits very well with Harry getting into trouble when Dobby does magic at Privet Drive.) Otherwise, they would have known when Tom Riddle modified his Uncle Morfin's memories. But if Riddle had in fact still had "The Trace" on him, they would have known. (This last book really needed a continuity editor who knew the entire series!)

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Choices - Jul 26, 2007 12:16 pm (#37 of 79)
I'm curious as to how the Trace is applied. Is it a spell or what? Obviously Harry did not know he had the Trace on him, so is it secretly done? Is it done when they arrive at Hogwarts? Hurry up JKR and write that encyclopedia - inquiring minds want to know. :-)

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legolas returns - Jul 26, 2007 12:19 pm (#38 of 79)
Hee hee I have just spotted a class line on P47 UK

"Even You-Know-Who cant split himself into seven."-If onlyMad Eye knew.

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Madam Pince - Jul 26, 2007 11:05 pm (#39 of 79)
Yes, legolas, that was a great line!

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Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 27, 2007 1:09 am (#40 of 79)
My guess is the trace allows the MoM see where an underage wizard is. In a house like the Weasley's there are so many people a general tracking device wouldn't be able to tell who did the magic, but at the Dursley's, in Little Whinging where the only wizard is Harry (OoP) then Harry will get in trouble as he is the prime suspect. Does this make sense?

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Ann - Jul 27, 2007 3:43 am (#41 of 79)
Yes, Phelim, but it contradicts what Dumbledore told Harry in HBP. He said exactly that: in a house like the Weasleys', the Ministry *can't* tell who did the magic. The Ministry trusts adult wizards to keep their kids in line.

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2BMcsmom - Jul 27, 2007 7:37 am (#42 of 79)
Maybe the trace is only put on muggle borns, or those that live with muggles.

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Morlicar - Jul 27, 2007 8:45 am (#43 of 79)
Actually, it doesn't contradict Dumbledore. As I understand it, the Trace gives the Ministry of Magic a ping if magic is used around the Traced individual. It doesn't tell them whether the Traced individual cast the spell, only that someone cast a spell near the traced individual. That is why they had to use broomsticks, motorcycles and thestrals to get him out; they didn't want to ping MOM with his location by casting spells.

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Soul Search - Jul 27, 2007 8:53 am (#44 of 79)
Morlicar,

"... the Trace gives the Ministry of Magic a ping if magic is used around the Traced individual."

I think you have got it. Used around the Traced individual. I wondered how anyone could sort out all the "pings" if all magic was recorded, somehow. Also explains Dobby's magic and Aunt Marge: magic was performed, even if Harry wasn't aware of doing it. (Actually, I wondered if the breaking glass and Aunt Marge wasn't done by Sirius; he was nearby and watching Harry.)

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haymoni - Jul 27, 2007 7:10 pm (#45 of 79)
Maybe The Trace is something new.

Maybe things used to work the way Dumbledore said, but with the new "regime" things work differently.

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valuereflection - Jul 27, 2007 7:27 pm (#46 of 79)
Hedwig and Harry's firebolt needed to be out of the story because they are uncommon and extravagant compared to other wizards' belongings. In fact, it is a status symbol for a wizard to own any owl (according to the Lexicon). Harry needed to be stripped of external trappings, so everyone will watch him succeed at his quest because of what is inside him and not because of the cool things he owns. (Although though Hedwig has been Harry's companion, not merely a "thing," some wizards might not recognize this fact.)

Rowling introduced this idea by having Harry first clean out his trunk and throw out nearly everything. I think she was letting her readers know the story would not have a "MacGyver" plot. (For those Forum members who are unfamiliar with this, MacGyver used to be a popular American TV show. MacGyver was a different kind of hero: he didn't use weapons and he was afraid of heights -- but he was expert at solving problems by making complicated machines out of ordinary things near to him.)

Next Rowling got rid of Harry's firebolt. Wouldn't Harry be more of a hero if he used an ordinary broomstick, or no broomstick, in order to perform his heroic deeds instead of owning the best broomstick in the world?

Hedwig's last act was to save Harry's life. After reading the scene a few times, I believe the AK which killed Hedwig had been aimed for Harry's chest. (Here's how I figured this. There was just barely enough room in the sidecar to wedge in both of Harry's legs with Hedwig's cage between his knees. The sidecar and Harry suddenly rolled upside down, and Hedwig slipped downward toward the earth and Harry's outstetched hands. As Harry seized her cage, nearly failing to catch it, the sidecar simultaneouly swung rightside up again. At that moment Harry's arms would have been above his head, holding the cage in one hand and the rucksack in the other hand. In the following "second's relief" for Harry, his natural movement would be to lower his arms to a more natural resting place with a sigh, thus moving Hedwig's cage past his chest and toward his lap. There was insufficient time for Harry to stuff anything back between his legs.)

I was saddened to lose faithful, beautiful Hedwig, but I recognized why she needed to leave. I was more horrified by the possibility that Harry could lose Hagrid. When I finished this chapter, I was very sorrowful because I truly believed Hagrid had died, too.

When Harry left #4 Privet Drive, he could not let Hedwig find her own way alone because he learned in GoF that she attacts attention and stands out (chapter 15)[/b]. The Ministry of Magic had no trouble with intercepting her (OotP chapter 17). Since HBP, owls have been intercepted routinely. I think this is why Tonks chose to carry Hedwig on her broom when the Order moved Harry to #12 Grimmauld Place in his fifth year, instead of instructing Hedwig to fly herself to Sirius/Ron/Hermione (OotP chapter 3).

About Hedwig's last screech: Maybe Avada Kedavra spells were designed for humans, and so they affect other creatures a little differently, allowing them to cry out before dying.

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rambkowalczyk - Jul 30, 2007 5:36 am (#47 of 79)
Valuereflection, I like your analysis of why Hegwig and the broom had to go. If Hedwig's action was to save Harry's life it mirrors what the Phoenix did for Dumbledore. It also means that one Death Eater would have been in big trouble if Hedwig didn't move.

This chapter had comical moments (the twins response to Harry not wanting to comply with their plan, Voldemort can't split himself into 7 people and Fleur, polyjuiced as Harry giving Bill a soppy and slavish look to Bill). It also leaves many questions-- Why did the DE say that Harry was the one, (I originally thought it was because Harry stopped using the Stun spell), What caused Harry's wand to act on its own (no clue) and Why did Voldemort vanish at the end. (no Clue).

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Paul Potter - Jul 30, 2007 9:46 am (#48 of 79)
Rambkowalczyk the DE knew that it was the true harry because he used Expelliarmus which is Harry's signature defence spell.

LV disappeared because he they reached the barrier protection the Tonks house.

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Finn BV - Aug 3, 2007 8:59 am (#49 of 79)
As for the Trace, I think DD meant that the Ministry detects magic in places where there are underaged wizards, and to have that done, they put a trace upon those people. So by "place" he didn't mean location, as in, the Ministry puts 4PD on their radar, but instead "place" as in "wherever Harry, an underage wizard, goes."

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Geber - Aug 3, 2007 9:24 am (#50 of 79)
I noticed that in Order of the Phoenix Mad Eye and the rest of Harry's escort are taking pains to conceal a trip from Privet Dr. to Grimauld Pl., but while there, the adult wizards use magic several times near Harry. For example, Tonks uses a spell to pack Harry's trunk, and Mad Eye uses a disillusionment spell on Harry so he won't be seen as he flys his broom. So it seems strange to worry about one method that could be used to track them (the Floo network; the reason given for not using it was being tracked, not the Dursley's electric fire), but to use magic near Harry.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Mona Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:14 am

PatPat - Aug 3, 2007 4:52 pm (#51 of 79)
Yes, Geber, but, in OoP, the Ministry had not yet been taken over by the DE's. It was important, in DH, that no one use magic near Harry because then the Death Eaters could track him. In OoP, they were concerned mainly with no one knowing where they were going.

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rambkowalczyk - Aug 4, 2007 8:59 am (#52 of 79)
Still it does seem like a continuity flaw. They MOM knew Harry did at least one illegal spell (the Patronus). To have on record the spells the OOP did while rescuing Harry would not have helped Harry's case that he was doing underage magic.

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zelmia - Aug 4, 2007 2:34 pm (#53 of 79)
I agree with Ramb. While "the Trace" explains why underage magic can be detected, it does not explain why the Ministry apparently ignored Tonks and Moody's spells at Privet Drive in OP.

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Steve Newton - Aug 4, 2007 4:33 pm (#54 of 79)
The obvious answer, not necessarily the correct one, is that an Order member was on duty and ignored it.

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Joanna Lupin - Aug 5, 2007 1:40 am (#55 of 79)
Or that the ministry knew that Harry was being moved (just didn't know where).

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Choices - Aug 5, 2007 8:28 am (#56 of 79)
Or perhaps Auror's have some sort of dispensation when it comes to doing spells - they are not tracked, so the spells went unnoticed.

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Steve Newton - Aug 6, 2007 10:25 am (#57 of 79)
Comments:

Seven Potters, 7 is the most magical number.

The Harry potion is gold. I can't remember Crabbe and Goyle's potions but I do know they weren't gold.

Fleur manages to insult Harry. "I', 'ideous."

If Hagrid can't ride a thestral or broom that seems to leave only the bike, apparition, or a port key as a way for him to have gotten to the island in SS/PS. I don't figure on him apparating. (I leave out swimming, too mundane.)

I still don't understand has the wand spelled on its own.

I was sure that Hagrid was dead.

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zelmia - Aug 6, 2007 11:16 am (#58 of 79)
Hagrid explains in Book 1 that he was "allowed to do a bit a magic" to collect Harry. But once he's got Harry with him, he's no longer permitted to do any magic. So Hagrid probably used a portkey, since he isn't likely ever to have learned to Apparate (expelled when he was 13, well before lessons offered, etc).

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Choices - Aug 6, 2007 12:27 pm (#59 of 79)
When Hagrid gave Harry his train ticket in book one, he just disappeared afterwards. Harry looks at his ticket and then back around to where Hargid was standing and Hagrid is gone. Hagrid is too big to blend in with the other people in the station, so I really thought he must have apparated out of the train station back to Hogwarts.

I didn't like the idea at first, but after reading DH and Hagrid saying he is too big for a Thestral or a broomstick, I have come to believe that Hagrid probably rode the motorbike to the shack on the rock in the sea.

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Sparrowhawk - Aug 6, 2007 12:37 pm (#60 of 79)
Good point, Choices. As a matter of fact, although apparation requires some specific skills, it doesn't appear to be connected with any ability at magical studies. It is just like the Muggle driving licence (and we all know some people who haven't got any high school degree, but who nevertheless are excellent drivers... and it also goes the other way round, doesn't it? Some brilliant scholars can be terrible drivers...) ;o)

So it wouldn't be so surprising if Hagrid could indeed apparate.

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Choices - Aug 6, 2007 12:45 pm (#61 of 79)
I just thought of something, if the Elder Wand can heal Harry's holly wand, I wonder if perhaps Dumbledore used it to heal Hagrid's broken wand? Hagrid was allowed to use magic on certain occasions and his wand, hidden in the pink umbrella, seemed to work pretty well for the magic he neede3d to do. I think it has been hinted at that you need a wand to apparate - if Hagrid does apparate, he would need a properly working wand.

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Soul Search - Aug 6, 2007 1:16 pm (#62 of 79)
Choices,

"When Hagrid gave Harry his train ticket in book one, he just disappeared afterwards. Harry looks at his ticket and then back around to where Hargid was standing and Hagrid is gone."

Tut, tut. Shame on you. Movie contamination!

In the BOOK, Hagrid and Harry return then, on September 1, the Dursleys take Harry to the train station ... chuckling because there is no platform 9 3/4.

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Choices - Aug 6, 2007 1:31 pm (#63 of 79)
Well, I did sit here debating whether or not what happened in the movie also happened in the book. I couldn't remember for sure, but it did happen in the book, after a fashion. Thanks Soul Search, you made me get my lazy self up and go check the book. :-)

"The train pulled out of the station. Harry wanted to watch Hagrid until he was out of sight; he rose in his seat and pressed his nose against the window, but he blinked and Hagrid had gone." (Last paragraph of Ch. 5 - POA)

It doesn't come right out and say, but I think both the movie and the book hint that Hagrid disappears more quickly than just from the train going around a bend or being lost in the crowd.

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Soul Search - Aug 6, 2007 1:55 pm (#64 of 79)
Choices, ah, you're right. Different train.

I have always wondered how Harry got from the train station to Privet Drive with all his stuff. The Dursleys wouldn't have come to pick him up at the station. They may have been still stuck on the island, since Hagrid and Harry took the boat.

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Choices - Aug 6, 2007 2:01 pm (#65 of 79)
That's an excellent question. We may wonder how Harry got from the train to Privet Drive, and then once he got there, how did he get into the locked house? And just how did the Dursleys get off that island? I guess there will always be questions. LOL

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valuereflection - Aug 6, 2007 4:34 pm (#66 of 79)
Edited Aug 6, 2007 6:36 pm
In PS/SS chapter 5, Harry looked around the island for another boat, wondering how Hagrid got to the island. If Sirius' bike had been there, Harry would have seen it. Then Harry asked Hagrid how he got to the island, and Hagrid answered, "Flew." He probably flew on Buckbeak or another hippogriff, dismounted from and slapped the hippogriff's hindquarters to tell it go back home, and then walked to the shack. Hippogriffs have 12-foot wings, and Buckbeak effortlessly carried three people together, so Hagrid was probably not too big to ride on a hippogriff. (I suspect he did not ride one in DH because they are very tempermental. Buckbeak's trial was a horrible ordeal for Hagrid, and he probably wanted to keep all the hippogriffs safe at Hogwarts instead of in a battle/chase with deatheaters.)

After he helped Harry onto the train going back to the Dursleys in PS/SS chapter 5, Hagrid probably took the Knight Bus back to Hogwarts. In PA, Stan Shunpike gave instructions for how to flag it down: "Just stick out your wand hand..." In Book OotP, Lupin simply stuck out his hand, with no wand.

Choices, that's a good idea about Dumbledore must have repaired Hagrid's broken wand with the Elder Wand. That little detail had always bothered me before now -- why could Hagrid do magic successfully with his broken wand, but neither Ron nor Lockhart could use Ron's broken wand successfully. Hagrid was obviously concealing part of the truth about his wand when he implied to Ollivander that it was still in pieces (PS chapter 5).

Soul Search and Choices, I've wondered how the Dursleys and Harry got his school stuff from the train to the house, too. But I can guess (now that I've read all seven books). Harry probably carried his school stuff in the same manner as he carried it from the house in PA chapter 2: lugging everything in his trunk behind him with one hand, except for Hedwig which he carried in her cage with his other hand. At least his trunk wasn't as heavy as it was in PA -- he didn't own as much stuff. The conductor probably helped him, being a little boy, to take his trunk off the train.

I'd like to know how and when the Dursleys got off the rock. Perhaps the answer is a mundane one. When the toothless old man who owned the boat saw that it was returned, then saw the Dursleys' car parked beside it but no sign of the Dursleys themselves, perhaps he took his boat back out to the rock. He had a rental agreement with them. Perhaps the Dursleys had left some collateral or identification in order to rent, or they still owed part of a rental fee. The owner of the shack probably had a rental agreement, too, or he might have wanted to check for damages caused by the storm. If someone checked on the Dursleys on the rock, then they could have simply driven their car home.

But Ravenclaw Rambler had a different idea in an essay on the Lexicon, "In Search of Little Whinging." The essay concluded with evidence that Harry might have returned to the Dursleys back on the rock. Here is the link: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

EDIT: I wondered why Vernon didn't bring up his experience of being stranded on the rock during his rant in OotP chapter 2. In his situation, I would have been very frustrated and inconvenienced. But Vernon did not mention being stranded on the rock when he aired his laundry list of past greivances against Harry.

I hope Jo will tell us someday how they got off the rock, maybe if someone asks very nicely. But as others have pointed out, there are many unanswered questions in the series.

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Columbine Fairy - Aug 10, 2007 2:42 am (#67 of 79)
On this chapter, does anyone wonder why the seven Potters and protectors didn't use dillillusionment charms????

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Esther Rose - Aug 10, 2007 6:25 am (#68 of 79)
My guess Columbine Fairy is because that would have required magic and Harry was still on the Trace at the time. Therefore the ministry would have detected it.

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PatPat - Aug 10, 2007 4:30 pm (#69 of 79)
I believe you are absolutely correct, Esther. Mad-Eye said that they had to use only non-magical means. Otherwise they could have simply disapparated.

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Columbine Fairy - Aug 11, 2007 2:37 am (#70 of 79)
Ah, yes....I better get back to auror school!!

Although I still think they should have had a back up plan, if Death Eaters showed up, that everyone should have just apparated away, like Mundungus did. Since Harry ended up having to use all sorts of magic, it wouldn't have made a difference.

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Orion - Aug 20, 2007 11:39 am (#71 of 79)
As everyone happily uses polyjuice potion this can't be considered magic or else they wouldn't dare. So instead of making seven Harrys they could simply have given Harry polyjuice potion with one of Aunt Petunias toenails in it and he would have been able to totter off to the bus station and then hop a train to the Weasleys'. Maybe Joanne Rowling couldn't resist a great movie scene?!

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Luna Logic - Aug 20, 2007 11:47 am (#72 of 79)
Orion: Maybe Joanne Rowling couldn't resist a great movie scene?! Perhaps
But it is also a great book scene, a great action scene. I think she needed something very strong at that stage of the story... and the logic of magic did suffer!. But it is still a very good chapter to read and re-read, so...

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freshwater - Aug 27, 2007 10:21 pm (#73 of 79)
Earlier --way back in July-- I mentioned how sad I was about Hegwig's death. But even after reading the entire book, I still felt --sorry, Fred-- that Hedwig's death was one of the most poignant. It was so unexpected at that point, so sudden and so pointless: it made no difference to the DE's, and hurt no one but Harry. My heart just broke for him when he lost her.

Since then, others have laid out excellent reasons why Hedwig had to die, and how her death signalled the end of 'innocence' in the Wizarding World for Harry. Recently I recalled this bit of trivia: Saint Hedwig is known as the patron saint of orphans....now Hedwig's death strikes me as a necessary portent of Harry being placed in a position that would require far more self-confidence and self-reliance than he has ever shown before. And sure enough, throughout the rest of the book Harry is scolded, warned and directed by others, but he consistently chooses to follow his own judgement (for example: his responses to 1)Remus' offer to go with them, 2)Hermione's demand that he close his mind to LV, 3) Remus' warning that Expelliarmus has become known as his signature spell and he must use more deadly force, etc.) Of course, Harry also reflects upon his decisions and sometime agonizes whether he chose well...but that is merely another sign of his growing maturity and continued humility.

At any rate, farewell Hedwig, faithful friend. You will be missed.

*I know....I'm a sucker for a loyal pet.**

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Choices - Aug 28, 2007 10:11 am (#74 of 79)
Really nice post Freshwater. I totally agree and like the way you expressed your feelings about the loss of Hedwig.

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Solitaire - Jan 31, 2009 10:09 pm (#75 of 79)
The deaths of Dobby and Hedwig cut me to the core more than those of any other characters.

As I've poked around in the books, looking for info when making posts, I've stopped to re-read various passages about Hedwig, and I see that she really is more than just an owl to Harry. She is referred to as his friend in more than one passage. She also seems to be gifted with more than ordinary owl intelligence and has been a part of Harry's life almost since he entered the magical world. Their relationship has mirrored that of Dumbledore and Fawkes, IMO. I would have liked to see Hedwig in the Forest scene, with the Marauders.

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shepherdess - Feb 1, 2009 5:47 pm (#76 of 79)
Oh, I was very angry with JKR for killing off Hedwig.

Later in an interview, she said something to the effect that the death of Hedwig symbolized Harry's transformation from boy to man. What?! When I read about Hedwig's death, I did not think "ok, Hedwig's gone; now Harry's a man". Instead I thought "NOoo...Is she going to kill of everyone and everything Harry cares about?! By the time he faces Voldemort, he isn't going to have any reason to want to live!! This was just so unnecessary!"

Ok, apparently I'm still a little angry about it. Sorry for the rant.

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me and my shadow 813 - Feb 1, 2009 6:34 pm (#77 of 79)
Perhaps she meant that, as he received Hedwig upon commencing his journey into Hogwarts, her death symbolised Harry's passage out of school-boy days and the protection Hogwarts also reflected? Maybe someone can phrase that better ...

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Chemyst - Oct 19, 2009 5:43 pm (#78 of 79)
This was just so unnecessary!"
I think that was the idea, Shepherdess. On one of the old threads where people could predict deaths in Book 7, I had predicted the death of Hedwig. But I had expected it further into the book and I had expected it to add to the pressure—something like her death interrupting a vital message or communication. This way, it was a pointless, unnecessary death. She was trapped in the cage; not even having a chance to elude the curse. It didn't even do that great of a job showing that Harry was nearly hit. In hindsight, it is stupid that Hedwig wasn't trusted with a decoy role of her own. I think she'd have flown fabulously off-course and been able to take a few DEs with her.

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Victoire Weasley - Oct 20, 2009 7:39 am (#79 of 79)
Before beginning DH I was wondering how Harry was going to be able to take care of Hedwig while he was on the run looking for Horcruxes. I thought of this as a way to relieve Harry of the burden of taking care of her. Sure she could have stayed at the Burrow, but it also acts as a way to show that everyone that Harry cares about is in danger.

I think she'd have flown fabulously off-course and been able to take a few DEs with her. Chemyst

I think you're right about that one. Hedwig certainly wasn't timid and she would have fought to protect Harry for sure.

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Mona Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:16 am

Kip Carter - Jul 19, 2007 2:54 am
Edited Jul 25, 2007 12:20 am
This thread is to discuss Only Chapter Five - Fallen Warrior of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows!

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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 21, 2007 10:13 am (#1 of 43)
I am pleased that the readers got to meet Ted and Andromeda Tonks. I admit I have been curious to see what she looked like.

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Luna Logic - Jul 21, 2007 1:50 pm (#2 of 43)
I agree ! And I was thinking about you in reading : what could Nathan made with "Dromeda"?
In French : a Dromadaire is a sort of camel. And saying somebody is a "camel" is saying she is a hard and harsh person...

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Caput Draconis - Jul 21, 2007 5:30 pm (#3 of 43)
Harry's reaction to Andromeda amused me - I wonder if she gets that a lot? Must be difficult bearing a striking resemblance to Voldemort's right hand Death Eater.

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Madame Pomfrey - Jul 21, 2007 5:48 pm (#4 of 43)
Why are Harry and Lupin the only ones getting asked security questions?

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Nymphadora - Jul 21, 2007 5:52 pm (#5 of 43)
Why indeed? I was wondering whether they forgot about it, but it was foolish to throw away all precautions after we were told they had established them for all!

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Jenniffler - Jul 21, 2007 8:29 pm (#6 of 43)
Tense chapter. I thought Hagrid was a goner.

Fred and George are now distingishable. Snape cut just an ear? Suspicious.

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Madam Pince - Jul 22, 2007 6:52 am (#7 of 43)
LOL, Jenniffler! That was my first thought too -- "Well, now they'll be able to tell them apart, at least!"

Yep, just an ear sounds suspicious to me, too. It's not like he's not a master of the spell and could probably have done significantly more damage. When you think about it, an ear is probably the one body part you could lose without it actually affecting your functioning -- you'll look a bit funny, but you can still hear. If it was a toe or a finger or something, it would affect your balance or your manual dexterity.

Well, you won't be able to wear Spectre-specs, but that's the only loss I can think of with the ear. ***still insisting Snape is good***

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Ann - Jul 22, 2007 7:18 am (#8 of 43)
I thought Hagrid was going to be dead, too. I always do. He's such a perfect representation of innocent goodness. But perhaps Hedwig died in his stead.

I agree that the ear thing was suspicious. We haven't seen Snape miss before--although given the confusion and turmoil of the chase, I suppose it's not surprising.

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Madam Pince - Jul 22, 2007 7:24 am (#9 of 43)
I thought Hagrid was dead also, especially seeing the chapter title.

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Finn BV - Jul 22, 2007 10:03 am (#10 of 43)
Yeah, I wasn't surprised ? they're flying through the sky, so I thought he was "lucky" to get an ear.

Actually, the chapter name took me by surprise, because "Bellatrix" means "warrior" in Latin, so I was a little scared?

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freshwater - Jul 22, 2007 7:19 pm (#11 of 43)
Whew! At the end of the last chapter I'd thought Hagrid was a goner! I'd thought Mad-Eye might be in danger of dying in this book, but never would have guessed it to come so early in the story. Seems JKR wants to establish the serious side of war right away.

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Solitaire - Jul 23, 2007 11:15 am (#12 of 43)
Finn ... you were "a little scared" that Bella might have been the fallen warrior? Hm ... do you like Bella? Just wondering. My dad always rooted for the baddies, too.

Solitaire

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Finn BV - Jul 23, 2007 12:01 pm (#13 of 43)
Sorry, "surprised" was probably more appropriate there; but scared in the sense that we would suddenly be seeing a dead Bella -- it would have been an odd transition from the previous chapter.

No, I never root for the baddies!!

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gankomon - Jul 24, 2007 1:41 pm (#14 of 43)
For myself, I felt sorry when Mad-Eye died so soon in the book- I was kind of counting on him to provide some leadership. However, I guess that this is yet another indication both that the war is serious and that Harry is truly on his own. Mad-Eye was one of the last of the survivors of the First War, and he was clearly the senior warrior. Now only Remus Lupin and Arthur Weaseley are left as older, wiser warriors from the First War. I am not sure I count Kingsley- he apparently was not in the Order the first time around...

I was really sad for Hedwig and Harry's Firebolt. I am starting to agree that Hedwig took the bolt that would have killed Hagrid. Could Hagrid possibly be the one who got a reprieve?

Glad it was only an ear. Holey, holey George. hmm- I think I agree with Fred. The 'hole' world of ear-related humor and he chooses 'holey'. Pathetic is defintely appropriate...

Regards,

gankomon

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Robert Dierken - Jul 24, 2007 8:32 pm (#15 of 43)
I was over reading the Where's George forums a bit earlier tonight. One of the posts there directed us to look at the fifth line on page 73. I'm still laughing about that.

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Ann - Jul 25, 2007 5:01 am (#16 of 43)
gankomen, I don't think the Weasleys were in the Order the first time around. They weren't in the picture, and Lupin says to Molly in OotP that she didn't understand because she wasn't in the Order in the first war. After all, she and Arthur had small children.

I loved the hole and ear humor. They were needed in such a dark chapter, and the darkness of their humor fits with the darkness of the book.

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gankomon - Jul 25, 2007 7:41 am (#17 of 43)
Ann- good point. I had forgotten that the Weasely parents were not in the Order during the First War. So that would mean that the only true elder warrior remaining would be - Hagrid. And somehow he doesn't exactly fit the mould....

There's Lupin, but I'm not sure he was in the first Order of the Phoenix either. In fact, the only ones I am sure of are Aberforth Dumbledore and Hagrid. Will have to re-read Book Five where Moody shows Harry the photo of the first Order.

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NFla Barbara - Jul 25, 2007 7:48 am (#18 of 43)
These are the people Moody identifies in the picture in OoP: Moody, DD, Dedalus Diggle, Marlene McKinnon, Frank and Alice Longbottom, Emmeline Vance, "and that there's Lupin, obviously," Benjy Fenwick, Edgar Bones, Sturgis Podmore, Caradoc Dearborn, "Hagrid, of course," Elphias Doge, Gideon Prewitt, Aberforth Dumbledore, Dorcas Meadowes, "Siruis, when he still had short hair," Wormtail and Harry's parents. Moody's comments also made it clear that there were others who fought LV who weren't in the picture.

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Soul Mate for Sirius - Jul 25, 2007 9:38 am (#19 of 43)
I was so happy Hagrid made it!!

As for Snape only cutting off George's ear, I just assumed he was trying to injure but not kill him because at that point he was still disguised as Harry, and LV had made it perfectly clear that NO ONE was allowed to kill Harry but him. Had the polyjuice potion worn off by that point and Snape knew it was George?

It was a little weird that only Lupin and Harry were asked security questions. I know Lupin doesn't ask Hagrid because polyjuice potion wouldn't work for him, but what about everyone else? I mean, obviously there's no need to ask George because I doubt a DE would cut off their ear to get in, and once you knew it was the real Lupin, there was no need to check George. Maybe there was no need to check any of the Weasly's because they'd all be together before the trip to get Harry and knew none of them were DE's (I got the impression Lupin and Kingsley thought if someone was an imposter, the switch had happened long before they picked Harry up!) and then that would include Fleur and Hermione because they were with the Weasley's before the pick up as well? So the only one's needing to be checked would be Harry, Lupin, Kingsley, Mad-eye, and Mundungus, and since the latter two never made it back the burrow, everyone was checked? -Okay, I know that was probably REALLY confusing to read and understand, sorry!!

I liked Ginny grabbing Harry's hand out in the garden. I was hoping there would be interactions like this between them in this book, because it would seem unrealistic not to have them. They're going through a lot in this chapter, and they obviously still have feelings for each other, so to not comfort each other in some way would seem weird to me...

-Jenn

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Allison R - Jul 25, 2007 10:39 am (#20 of 43)
SMfS-- someone asks Mr. Weasley a question to try and verify his identity as well, but he is in such a hurry to get to George that he shouts them off until after he has checked on his son:

"I'll prove who I am, Kingsley, after I've seen my son, now back off if you know what's good for you!" (DH US pg. 74)

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legolas returns - Jul 25, 2007 1:24 pm (#21 of 43)
Under the circumstances I think that was a good enough identifier of Mr Weasley. I dont think an imposter would have done such a good job of fatherly concern.

Didnt Hermione begin to change back from Harry infront of people. There would be no need for her to confirm who she was.

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Choices - Jul 25, 2007 4:14 pm (#22 of 43)
Hagrid knocks over two delicate tables and an aspidistra - an Asian plant of guess what....? The lily family.

We discover that it was indeed Voldermort who tricked Hagrid out of information on how to get past Fluffy, not some "stranger" - "Hagrid, whom he loved, whom he trusted, who had once been tricked into giving Voldemort crucial information in exchange for a dragon's egg."

*puts a portion of crow back in the pot**

Voldemort has Ollivander.

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Allison R - Jul 25, 2007 4:42 pm (#23 of 43)
Choices, if he gave info to Voldemort, then he gave it to Quirell, who was playing host to Voldy at that point, right? So technically you could say he gave info to either of them and be correct. Voldemort may have been in the driver's seat, but Quirell was acting as the car at the time.

Poor Olivander... that year must have seemed like an eternity for him!

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Choices - Jul 25, 2007 4:52 pm (#24 of 43)
That is exactly right Allison. I have always believed it was Quirrell/Voldemort in the Hog's Head getting the information from Hagrid. Some had argued that it was a "stranger" employed by Quirrell/Voldemort to obtain the information for them.

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Oruma - Jul 26, 2007 1:37 pm (#25 of 43)
I feared Hagrid was a goner, too, when I began the chapter; so glad he isn't! Although losing Mad-eye is a great loss too...

Speaking of which, remember how we're told since GoF that Mad-eye had been a great Auror in his prime? Yet he's one of the first to fall in Battle of MoM (to Dolohov) and this time he's the only one killed. I guess the 9-month stay in his own briefcase, and age, had caught up with him...

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Choices - Jul 26, 2007 1:46 pm (#26 of 43)
I think you're right Oruma. Mad-Eye was a wonderful character. He had given his life and his health for the MOM as an Auror and also for the Order. He was gruff and rough, but he was a good man and his heart was in the right place. It was interesting that he had been a mentor for Tonks in her Auror training.

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freshwater - Jul 29, 2007 9:18 pm (#27 of 43)
Robert D. (post 15)[/b]...you ought to explain that the forum you were looking at was on the "Where's George?" website, a site that allows you to register and track currency at it moves around the country...the "George" in question being George Washington (first president of the U.S.) who is shown on our $1.00 bill.

It's a hoot that someone on their forum noticed line 5 on p. 73!

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rambkowalczyk - Jul 30, 2007 6:55 am (#28 of 43)
I too wondered if Hagrid was the fallen warrior--he did fall--but I guess giants are made of tougher stuff. Funny though, it spite of Hagrid's reprieve, I never once thought of Moody till Bill announced it. Talk about clueless Smile

Snape hexing George had me really puzzled. I mean I still had my fingers crossed that Snape is good. It was incredibly risky to aim at Harry like that. Then it came to me. Snape had to know that this particular Harry was a fake. My theory was that Aberforth got the information from Mundungus and passed it on to Snape. I think Aberforth was the traitor and he told Snape not only the night it was going to happen but also that there would be seven Harrys and who the real one was. Snape only told Voldemort the night but not about the 7 Potters. Still it was risky to aim at Potter like that.

This chapter also gave me insight on what might constitute Dark Magic. Magic that can't be healed by the usual charms. George's ear is permanently severed (unless Snape shows up at the end with the ear waiting to attach it with a song), Bill's face is permanently scarred by Fenrir's dark magic, once a werewolf always a werewolf, The Longbottoms can't be restored to health etc.

I liked how Harry defended Hagrid, (though others didn't know it) by saying he didn't think anyone in the order was a traitor. Kind of a reversal of Moody's Constant Vigilance. Not sure how this will play out in light of Lupin comparing Harry to his father. It does show that Harry doesn't want anyone to die because of him.

Did anyone notice Hagrid getting stuck in the doors. First he struggles to get in the sitting room. By the time he squeezes in, Harry and Lupin go outside to greet Lupin and Hermione. Hagrid gets stuck trying to go outside and asks Harry for help.

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DBFwoopersong - Jul 30, 2007 5:01 pm (#29 of 43)
The first mention of "God" in HP????

On page 74, Harry says, "Thank God." Is this the first time we have ever heard "Thank God" --or perhaps any mention of God-- in the entire HP series (or perhaps ever in our view of the Wizarding World)? It really struck me as so odd when I read it! It glared at me with its profound novelty...even more so in light of the fact that Ginny soon adds her own very different comment: "thank goodness" . My first thought was that it was a reflection on how Harry's Muggle upbringing shows through in a caring way in a time of extreme stress. However, a few pages later (78) we have Mrs. Weasley saying "Bill! Thank God, thank God--" and Molly is one person who we know would have had no experience with expressions that were purely Muggle in their derivation...

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Jenniffler - Jul 30, 2007 6:10 pm (#30 of 43)
DBFwoopersong, you are right and you are wrong. this is the first time we see God's name in a positive manner, but I was reading with my daughter in OotP Chapter 8 last night and Fudge says the word God in a negative way. Another reason to dislke Fudge. Where was he in this book? Retired?

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Chemyst - Jul 31, 2007 12:32 pm (#31 of 43)
Did anyone else keep expecting George to somehow have an extendable ear, à la Moody's magical eye, by the end of the book?

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Caius Iulius - Jul 31, 2007 12:43 pm (#32 of 43)
Chemyst: yes!

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Catherine - Jul 31, 2007 1:04 pm (#33 of 43)
On page 74, Harry says, "Thank God." Is this the first time we have ever heard "Thank God" --or perhaps any mention of God-- in the entire HP series (or perhaps ever in our view of the Wizarding World)?-DBFwoopersong

No. Doesn't Sirius sing "God rest ye merry Hippogriffs..." in OoP?

And yes, I kept expecting George to have such an ear.

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haymoni - Jul 31, 2007 3:14 pm (#34 of 43)
DBF - I thought the same thing you did.

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DBFwoopersong - Jul 31, 2007 3:26 pm (#35 of 43)
Jenniffler: Interesting! Perhaps its just the first time for Harry--or the first time of any acknowledgment of a supernatural higher power (other than LOVE). You have a point about the difference between using "God" as a word of relief versus a word of annoyance...but that probably has less to do with differences between Muggle and Wizarding cultures and more to do with sensitive vs. rude people! Fudge was not really around much in book six either, if you recall. I think he mostly just served to introduce one minister to "the other minister". (I was expecting to find more about the crossover of worlds in this book as well, but I guess JKR just set us up in chapter one of book six to fill in those blanks on our own in book seven.)

Catherine: You of course are right about the Merry Hippogriffs song! But somehow the cross over of M & W cultures when it comes to "Yule time celebrations" was established early on and is less surprising to me. Still, I can't help but wonder if Sirius knew the actual Muggle lyrics to that tune.

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Choices - Jul 31, 2007 4:23 pm (#36 of 43)
I find it interesting, that in the Christian faith and in the Christian Bible, God IS Love.

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Mediwitch - Jul 31, 2007 5:59 pm (#37 of 43)
I think Hermione exclaims, "Oh my God!" in HBP, when Harry tells them OWL results will be arriving that morning.

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Steve Newton - Aug 9, 2007 10:12 am (#38 of 43)
Comments

So much for my thought that Ted Tonks was the newsman Ted from SS/PS.

It took me half of the chapter to figure out that Dora was Tonks. The use of the last part of the full name also convinces me that the Black family girls all used this. Bellatrix was definitely Trixie when young.

Harry's guilt seems to be a tad presumptuous. It was pointed out to him that he didn't have a choice.

Kingsley is surprised that Voldemort can fly. It must be very rare. Not something he learned from Ravenclaw's diadem or her daughter's ghost, I hope.

I thought that Stan might be a squib. I guess not.

Muriel may be a nasty piece of work but she does allow her house to be used to help Harry.

"Always the tone of surprise." A running joke, and a good one.

I'm surprised that I never thought of Moody dying.

If they used Mundungus' plan they must have been desperate.

Fleur asks a very good question.

I think that this is the only mention of Pigwidgeon in the book.

In one of the previous books Arthur mentioned self spelling wands. I guess that there is such a thing. Sort of.

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PatPat - Aug 9, 2007 10:41 am (#39 of 43)
I don't find Harry's guilt presumptuous at all! I think it's realistic. People had just been hurt and had died for him. Whether he had a choice or not, it makes sense to me that he would feel guilty. It's like survivor's guilt only worse because the whole thing happened because of him. I would actually find it less realistic if Harry didn't feel some sense of guilt.

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freshwater - Aug 22, 2007 4:05 pm (#40 of 43)
At the very least the death and injuries happened "on behalf of " Harry, if not 'because' of him. That's plenty to induce some guilt at the need for such a thing, even though he had not personally required it of them.

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kingdolohov - Sep 14, 2007 6:57 pm (#41 of 43)
This chapter pretty much proved one of my assumptions wrong. I always figured that Travers was one of the 10 who escaped from Azkaban two years prior. He was one of the ones mentioned by Karkaroff and seemed like an important DE like the other escapees. However, Kingsley mentions that he cursed him during the chase, and that he was supposed to be in Azkaban.

Since he was not apart of the battle at the DoM, there would only be two ways he could have been among the 10 and ended up back in Azkaban. One, the Ministry actually caught a real DE. However, Arthur didn't believe they had, and Travers certainly was known to be a DE. The second possibility is he fought at Hogwarts the night Dumbledore died and was caught. This doesn't seem likely to me, although there were at least two DEs there we didn't know the identities of (the ones fighting Lupin and Ron).

I don't understand how he didn't escape with the others, especially since he seemed to be a rather important DE (the one who murdered the McKinnons). Apparently he wasn't "select" enough.

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Joanna Lupin - Sep 15, 2007 2:40 am (#42 of 43)
Wasn't Travers one of the escaped 10 who fought at the DOM and were caught?

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kingdolohov - Sep 15, 2007 10:31 am (#43 of 43)
He wasn't one of the named ten. The ones that were listed or fought in the DoM battle after having been known to be in Azkaban were Bellatrix, Rodolphus, Rabastan, Rookwood, Mulciber (mentioned as caught in Karkaroff penseive scene and then listed by Malfoy during the fight), and Dolohov. The other four were unknown.

The 12 in the battle were Nott, Bellatrix, Rodolphus, Crabbe, Rabastan, Jugson, Dolohov, Macnair, Avery, Rookwood, Mulciber, and Malfoy.

It's really not key to the story or anything, it just seemed to me that he was an important DE, and odd that he didn't escape with the rest.

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Mona Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:18 am

Kip Carter - Jul 19, 2007 3:11 am
Edited Jul 25, 2007 12:22 am
This thread is to discuss Only Chapter Six - The Ghoul in Pajamas of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows!

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Jenniffler - Jul 21, 2007 8:36 pm (#1 of 38)
The Ghoul in Pajamas

Hermione packs her books! Harry jokes about Voldemort and Ginny goes into shock. Frankly I would too. Poor Ginny.

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Ann - Jul 22, 2007 7:22 am (#2 of 38)
I agree about Ginny. But I really liked the ghoul and the fake spattergroit. And I loved that the ghoul was pleased with the idea of staying in a real bedroom rather than just howling in the attic. But how will they get him to go back when Ron comes home? (Assuming he does....) I think Hermione's been a bit ruthless about her own parents, though. JKR has never seemed very concerned with them, so I suppose it's best that they're out of the way entirely here.

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Madam Pince - Jul 22, 2007 7:27 am (#3 of 38)
She always was that way about her parents, though. I forget which book it was, but remember when she interrupted her ski vacation with her family to re-join Harry and Ron? I always thought that was odd. My family would be pretty bummed (I'd think... and I'd hope) if I just skipped out on a family vacation to spend time with some pals that I already spent the majority of the year with anyway.

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Finn BV - Jul 22, 2007 10:05 am (#4 of 38)
Yeah, there have been numerous essays (see here for one on the Lexicon) on Hermione's family (parents), who basically just let her go off and do whatever she wants. It certainly made life easier!

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Michael Franz - Jul 22, 2007 1:44 pm (#5 of 38)
I think Hermione has finally fallen to the wizarding world's philosophy of Magie über Alles. She's never going to remove that Memory Charm. Her parents will forget she ever existed... and so will she forget them.

Of course, it's too much to believe that Hermione faked passports and dental licenses for their new names, so they'll be locked up as terror suspects as soon as they land. (Yeah, I know we're glossing over reality in this book, but all the more reason to think Hermione is "disappearing" her inconvenient Muggle parents.)

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Soul Search - Jul 22, 2007 5:05 pm (#6 of 38)
I thought Hermione was being properly careful of her parents. She went to a lot of trouble, telling me she cared for them very much. Hermione showed more sense that we saw from a lot of wizards.

They were at considerable risk. Voldemort would send Death Eaters after them given the smallest chance they could help him find Harry. Had Hermione done any less, Voldemort would have found them. They would have ended up like Neville's parents.

I would have appreciated some passing remark that said she retrieved them and gave them their memories back, but it really wasn't that important to the story.

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Mediwitch - Jul 22, 2007 6:58 pm (#7 of 38)
I love how Hermione Summoned the books from Dumbledore's office!

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M A Grimmett - Jul 23, 2007 6:58 am (#8 of 38)
I was really pleased and amazed that Hermione sought to protect her parents so thoroughly.

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Michael Franz - Jul 23, 2007 10:50 am (#9 of 38)
Yes, Hermione is protecting her parents... but she's doing it without their knowledge or consent. I mean, if the Dursleys are allowed to hear the truth about Voldemort, why the heck can't Hermione tell the truth to her parents? Because Harry, though he hates the Dursleys, still treats them as human beings. To Hermione, her parents are mere Muggles, incapable of comprehending anything magical. Therefore, she'll have to erase their memories -- For The Greater Good. Sad

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Solitaire - Jul 23, 2007 11:20 am (#10 of 38)
I thought Hermione was being properly careful of her parents.

I agree. Not only is Hermione protecting their lives, but she is removing a potential source of grief, since she has no idea whether or not she will make it through the war alive. I think she is trying to spare them unnecessary pain. I believe you are giving her a bad rap, Michael. JM2K, of course ...

Solitaire

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journeymom - Jul 23, 2007 12:31 pm (#11 of 38)
I agree that Hermione was being properly careful of her parents. And I had anticipated measures being taken to provide for the Granger's safety. But I was shocked that Hermione was able to Obliviate her own parents. I guess I'd pictured the Order taking care of the Grangers. But her personally taking such drastic measures also shocked Harry into taking her commitment seriously. It means that she had already made the severe, permanent cut from her parents and childhood, and that she fully understood what she was getting into.

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Geber - Jul 23, 2007 2:49 pm (#12 of 38)
I had the impression that the Order protected the Dursleys with little initiative on Harry's part. Hermione took the initiative in protecting her parents. Perhaps Hermione had a hunch that the Order was infiltrated, and was willing to take a chance on the Dursleys, but not with her parents. I still think she should not have messed with their memories. She's did a pretty good job fixing up Ron's essay that was written with a damaged spell-correction quill; she could have probably altered passports without breaking a sweat.

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Michael Franz - Jul 23, 2007 3:43 pm (#13 of 38)
It means that she had already made the severe, permanent cut from her parents and childhood,

And that is really my point. I think Hermione always intended it to be permanent whether or not she survived the war. If that is so, she is doing far more than mere "protection."

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Geber - Jul 23, 2007 5:39 pm (#14 of 38)
As for Hermione leaving her memory modification of her parents in place even if she survives, I don't think so. If she removes it, I imagine she would explain what happened, rather that give them false memories of being in Britain during the period they were really in Australia. I think just giving that explaination would force her parents to perceive her as an adult; Hermione has probably thought of herself as an adult for at least a year.

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Solitaire - Jul 23, 2007 5:52 pm (#15 of 38)
As attentive as Hermione is to the rights of the downtrodden in the magical world--and as long and hard as she studies situations before she acts--I can't believe she would have taken this step without long consideration over how best to handle it and what might occur in the future. I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt--that she truly did it to spare them unnecessary pain and grief. Geber, I think your scenario looks plausible.

Solitaire

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Ida-ho-Potato - Jul 23, 2007 6:18 pm (#16 of 38)
I think Hermione did it to protect them from harm and grief if she did die. I also think she planned on reversing or undoing her memory charms when all was safe again and Riddle Dead. I do not believe that she never planned on seeing her parents again. She just wanted them to not be sad if she died and deffinatly did not want the DE to get a hold them.

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TomProffitt - Jul 23, 2007 6:21 pm (#17 of 38)
I think Hermione expected to die in this final battle with Voldemort and her treatment of her parents was the only way she had to protect them. I believe that she modified their memories with their knowledge and cooperation and would have sought help to accomplish it if she needed it. We know Ron sought the help of Bill and his Dad, surely Hermione would have been able to get their help if she needed it.

Hermione might be a bit vindictive, but she's never been callous.

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nthdavid - Jul 24, 2007 1:33 am (#18 of 38)
It is unlikely that Hermoine used an obliviate spell on her parents. She says that she will reverse it if she survives. From the evidence of Lockhart, he is still trying to recover from an obliviate; I don't think she would have taken the chance of permanently removing their memories. She more likely used an imperius or confundus spell.

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Madame Pomfrey - Jul 24, 2007 6:18 am (#19 of 38)
Solitaire,I totally agree with your post. It scared me when I read what she had done because I thought this was a possible clue that she might die and she was sparing her parents grief.

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gankomon - Jul 24, 2007 1:33 pm (#20 of 38)
For me, I took Hermione's actions at face value. I agree that while the Order might be OK to look after the Dursleys, she would want to make sure her parents were safe by her own actions. I think that what she did was both brave and noble, since she has no idea if she will make it through. And from a plot perspective, Hermione needed to take these extreme measure to really impress on Harry how serious this all really was- I don't think he really understood how dangerous this is going to be for Ron and Hermione. Hermione will surely repair her memory modifications if she makes it through and Voldemort is completely defeated. As someone else wrote, she is not callous. Socially inept at times, yes. Callous, no.

Regards,

gankomon

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2BMcsmom - Jul 24, 2007 3:51 pm (#21 of 38)
To me, the Order's main goal was to keep Harry and his family safe. They would not have thought about Hermione's parents unless she asked. Hermione knew how important keeping Harry safe was, so she would not have wanted to bother the Order with something she was capable of doing. She would have also felt that it was her responsibility as their daughter to keep them safe.

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Ann - Jul 25, 2007 5:10 am (#22 of 38)
It does sound as though Hermione has done this memory "modification" on her own. She says something about the strength of her charm. I wondered at first if she had consulted her parents, but I'm afraid she probably didn't. It sounds pretty high-handed, but on the other hand, she knows them better than anyone, and she may have simply been sure that they wouldn't take the threat seriously enough to allow her to protect them any other way. It doesn't square too well with her insistence on rights for house elves, but it is perfectly consistent with one of her less admirable characteristics, bossiness and a tendency to believe that she knows best.

I agree that her ruthless action is important, in that it helps show Harry her seriousness. Ron's slightly more laughable precautions still involved his family. Both Harry and Hermione have definitively left home. Ron hasn't. I think this is an important distinction.

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Chemyst - Jul 25, 2007 6:01 am (#23 of 38)
I think Hermione's "solution" to keeping her parents safe is consistent with a late-teen to early 20-something reasoning. I'd be more upset if she were 40, had kids of her own, and still felt the same way.
When you are young and nearly all your relatives are older than you, you look at life one way. At some point, that flips. If you are both responsible and fortunate enough to live that long, you accept the ebbs and flows of life and prefer dealing with the truth.

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Soul Mate for Sirius - Jul 25, 2007 9:55 am (#24 of 38)
I assumed Hermione protected her parents on her own because she dind't want the Order to know that far in advance. I mean, no one but the three of them know what they're setting out to do, so for her to say to the Order, "could you hide my parents because Harry, Ron, and I are setting out on our own and I don't want anything to happen to them" may cause even more questions from everyone. Also, if the Order is protecting her parents, they'd be fully engrossed in the war and would be constantly worrying about Hermione's saftey. Right or wrong, I think Hermione was sparing them that worry, especially after seeing the toll it's been taking on Molly for the last two years.

I also think she would have been completely up-front with her parent's about what she was doing. Never in the past have we seen Hermione do somehting to someone or make someone do something without fully explaining. (As far as I can remember that is. If I'm wrong on this, by all means, please set me straight!) To me that sounds more like DD then Hermione.

She also seems sad about the entire thing when she tells Harry about it. I don't for one second think she doesn't care about her family or has any desire to stay away from them if she's still alive after the war. It's probably really hard for her, being Muggle-born and thus in many ways, belonging to both worlds, especially as Harry's friend. She's more involved in the fate of the Wizarding World then most as Harry's friend, but at the same time, she has a family in the Muggle world. I can imagine for her it's exceptionally hard to balance these two identities. This was her solution...

I also found it interesting that Ron's solution to the problem of him leaving made it seem as if he were at home. Reasons?

-Jenn

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 25, 2007 10:22 am (#25 of 38)
"I also found it interesting that Ron's solution to the problem of him leaving made it seem as if he were at home. Reasons?"

So the DE's wouldn't torture his family about his whereabouts, or his loyalties.

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Chemyst - Jul 25, 2007 2:58 pm (#26 of 38)
Never in the past have we seen Hermione do somehting to someone or make someone do something without fully explaining.
Well, for starters, there was the DA sign-up sheet with the sneak jinx.

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Good Evans - Jul 26, 2007 11:25 am (#27 of 38)
I suspect that had we "seen" Hermione putting the charm on her parents she would have had "silent tears running down her cheeks". It must have been very hard for her to complete the magic and then see her parents not know her at all. Well - put yourself in those shoes.

I wonder if Harry ever told her about the torturing and breaking of Bertha Jorkins memory charms, and if knowing that they could be tortured and broken would she have gone through with it anyway???? Interesting to ponder

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Solitaire - Jul 26, 2007 12:02 pm (#28 of 38)
In the chapter, she says, "Assuming I survive our hunt for the Horcruxes, I'll find Mum and Dad and lift the enchatment." I do not believe she has turned her back on her parents or the Muggle World, as some have suggested. I do believe her actions show that she realizes the seriousness of their mission ... the reality that they might not all make it through alive.

Solitaire

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M A Grimmett - Jul 26, 2007 2:22 pm (#29 of 38)
She loves her parents; it would go against everything she is to just abandon them with modified memories. I felt she was very clear that she was doing this only for their protection, which implies that when the threat is over, so is the spell.

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Prefect Marcus - Jul 26, 2007 2:36 pm (#30 of 38)
All the same, I hope she discussed it with them before unilaterally messing with their lives.

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Choices - Jul 28, 2007 4:19 pm (#31 of 38)
This chapter tells us something we had discussed on the Horcrux thread I think. Was Tom Riddle seeking knowledge on how to make a Horcrux or on how to make multiple Horcruxes. Hermione says Tom only approached Slughorn to find out what would happen if you split your soul into seven. She says Dumbledore was sure he already knew how to make a Horcrux.

We also are told that "remorse" can put your soul back together.

Getting emotionally close to a Horcrux can cause it to possess you.

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rambkowalczyk - Jul 31, 2007 7:44 pm (#32 of 38)
One of the reasons Hermione did the memory charm on her parents was that the parents knew quite alot about Harry so for me it showed that Hermione was very open to her parents regarding the wizarding world.

I also noticed that there was a different explanation as to what happens when the secret keeper dies. This seems more logical.

Did anyone else notice that Ron's emotional range is now getting to be larger than a teaspoon?

I wonder if Tom will show remorse, then Harry won't have to kill him.

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Solitaire - Jul 31, 2007 8:07 pm (#33 of 38)
Did anyone else notice that Ron's emotional range is now getting to be larger than a teaspoon?

LOL Ramb! He's probably up to a whole measuring cup by now!

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legolas returns - Aug 1, 2007 10:21 am (#34 of 38)
Well he did have some reading material this time. He was a little clueless previously bless him.

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Steve Newton - Aug 10, 2007 10:37 am (#35 of 38)
Comments

Molly is right, Harry doesn't have to go. Its his choice. Of course, if he doesn't do it thousands will probably die or be tortured. No pressure.

When Harry tells Molly "It got to be me," it sounds like he is confirming that he is the Chosen One. Molly seems to get the message since she drops the subject.

This explanation of the Fidelius Charm makes a lot more sense than the one on JKR's site.

What is Scrimgeour doing alone in his office?

Wow, the Delacours are nice!

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Michael Franz - Aug 18, 2007 2:07 pm (#36 of 38)
In truth, the reason I'm so hard on Hermione about this issue isn't really about her, but about the way JK has handled Hermione's parents throughout the series. I think the only reason she gave Hermione parents at all was because Harry was already an orphan and to have two of them would be overkill. However, for some reason, she seemed adamantly opposed to including them in the plot at all, to the point of not even giving them first names (while every wizard character and four generations of his ancestors has a middle name.)

I mean, Hermione practically moved into the Burrow starting in Book 2 and has barely seen her parents since! It's one thing for Harry to think of Mrs. Weasley as a mother, but for Hermione to do the same is a slap in the face to her real mother. She wasn't adopted or abandoned; she has two real parents who love her. "Mudblood and proud of it"? Empty words, indeed.

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Esther Rose - Aug 20, 2007 12:46 pm (#37 of 38)
Actually Michael I thought in book two Hermione only stays at Hogwarts for Christmas. She wasn't at the Burrow in the beginning of book two. (The twins had rescued Harry from the prison gates of his bedroom at #4 Privet Drive.) In Book three she had gone to France with her parents in the beginning of the book. I can't remember if she went home for the Holidays or not. Book 4 was the Quidditch World Cup and the Triwizard Tournament. Both pretty big events she would probably liked to have seen.

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Phelim Mcintyre - Aug 21, 2007 2:02 am (#38 of 38)
Mermione stayed over Christmas in Book 3 to keep Harry company. She then went home to her family at the end of book 3 as she arrived at the Burrow the day before Harry. Hermione then went home to her parents at the end of book 4 and arrived at Grimmauld Place a few weeks before Harry, and then missed the family skiing holiday because of Mr Weasley. Her parents took her home from Kings Cross at the end of Book 5, and we know she went home between the end of book 6 and the wedding because of what she did to her parents. But as they are not part of the wizarding world, or important to the narrative from Harry's viewpoint we don't see much of them.

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Mona Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:19 am

Kip Carter - Jul 19, 2007 3:22 am
Edited Jul 25, 2007 12:23 am
This thread is to discuss Only Chapter Seven - The Will of Albus Dumbledore of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows!

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Madam Pince - Jul 21, 2007 11:52 am (#1 of 41)
So is the mokeskin pouch Hagrid gave to Harry for his birthday the thing around Harry's neck on the cover art? Must be... It would be a handy Horcrux-carrier...

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MickeyCee3948 - Jul 21, 2007 12:06 pm (#2 of 41)
That's what I got Madam Pince, it sounds almost exactly like the picture.

Mickey

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Nymphadora - Jul 21, 2007 4:58 pm (#3 of 41)
"To Miss Hermione Jean Granger," (UK Adult Edition, p.106)

Was it only me that stared with disbelief and some glimmer of hope at this? As per the Lexicon, her middle name is Jane... I thought maybe Dumbledore gave her the key to the code in the book this small way hehe!

(I know, grasping at straws, and she didn't react at all... but I'm curious to see whether anyone else thought it was strange).

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Madam Pince - Jul 21, 2007 6:23 pm (#4 of 41)
Nymphadora, when I read that I thought to myself "Hmmm, isn't that funny, I don't remember knowing Hermione's middle name before!" because it didn't sound familiar at all. But now that you say it, Jane does sound right and Jean definitely doesn't. Wow.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 21, 2007 6:33 pm (#5 of 41)
It may have been a printing error, after the wand order error in GoF it seems possible.

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Finn BV - Jul 21, 2007 7:56 pm (#6 of 41)
As 'Jane' was never said in the books (just in an interview), and it is also the middle name of Dolores Umbridge (shudder), I figured that JKR had changed it to 'Jean', sounding similar to Jane, but not being exactly the same. I like Jane better though.

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azi - Jul 22, 2007 2:57 am (#7 of 41)
I agree Finn! Jane is better than Jean.

I was wondering if, since Jane was got from an interview, someone misheard JKR. Jean could have been mistaken for Jane by accident - similar pronounciation. It's also not the sort of mistake that is easily picked up, or that an editor would necessarily know. They are there to make sure the books have continuity to the other books, rather than to interviews.

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Ann - Jul 22, 2007 7:31 am (#8 of 41)
It's Jean in the American edition as well. So it may be a conscious change. I like the idea that it's to distinguish Hermione from Umbridge, but I find Jane a more suitable name than Jean, perhaps because of Austen.

Nice to have the Putter-Outer show up again, from the beginning of the first book and, was it Moody that had it in OotP?

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poohnpiglettt - Jul 22, 2007 9:22 am (#9 of 41)
Going back to the cover art, I think the golden snitch has something to do with the picture of Harry. There's been a lot of discussion that he was holding out his hand to retrieve something but could he be releasing the snitch because it tells them "i open at the close?"

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Madam Pince - Jul 22, 2007 9:23 am (#10 of 41)
That phrase "I open at the close" is driving me nuts...

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poohnpiglettt - Jul 22, 2007 9:38 am (#11 of 41)
I'm thinking "close" as in end of a battle which seemed to connect for me to the picture--the last thing he has to do, maybe, to defeat Voldemort. Because the hands of what I assume to be Voldemort seem to be desperate and reaching out to stop or ward something off while Harry seems resolute in his action. One can hope : )

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Finn BV - Jul 22, 2007 10:06 am (#12 of 41)
azi, I checked to see if the interview was oral or written, and it was actually a webchat, with JKR typing the answers? no way to get around it! Unless she changed her name with her parents', too.

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Mediwitch - Jul 22, 2007 7:12 pm (#13 of 41)
Ron just cracks me up. He gave me several LOL moments in this book!

Harry hugged Mrs. Weasley and "...tried to put a lot of unsaid things into the hug..." I think now it's pretty clear how he feels about the Mrs. Weasley.

Harry's vision of Ginny marrying a tall, faceless, unpleasant stranger made me worry for Harry's fate even more.

Loads of purple and gold at Harry's birthday party.

I LOVE how Harry handles Scrimgeour!

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Holly T. - Jul 23, 2007 6:38 am (#14 of 41)
I loved the part with the watch and the hug.

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journeymom - Jul 23, 2007 12:44 pm (#15 of 41)
OK, Finn, then Hermione's middle name is Jane, right? Am I understanding correctly? Because I so prefer Jane over Jean.

I tsk'd when I read that and told Mr Journeymom they misspelled Hermione's middle name. He merely rolled his eyes at me.

"...tried to put a lot of unsaid things into the hug..." *sniffle!* Let there be no aspersions cast upon Harry's feelings for Molly. He loves and appreciates her.

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Jenniffler - Jul 23, 2007 9:14 pm (#16 of 41)
Jean, Jane Potato, Potatoe

Cool Deluminator for Ron. I was sure It would be Harry's.

Hermoine gets a book and she crys on the title. Harry getS the snitch he swallowed. Scrimgeour seem very suspicious about why Dumbledore did that.

Also Mr. Delacour is nothing like I imagined him, exept that he was indeed French.

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Chemyst - Jul 24, 2007 4:07 am (#17 of 41)
Edited by Denise P. Jul 24, 2007 6:02 am
Deluminator – any speculation on why it is no longer called a Put-Outer? I'd thought the 'put-out' form had a touch of non family friendly innuendo to it as well as an implication of disgruntlement, neither of which seemed to fit an old wizard darkening the streetlamps on his late-night walk. But why the change?

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Madame Pomfrey - Jul 24, 2007 6:28 am (#18 of 41)
I think it was called that because Harry didn't know its proper name.If I'm not mistaken,Moody said he borrowed it from Dumbledore,but it was Harry that actually thought of it as a put-outer.I don't think Moody ever called it that.

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Madam Pince - Jul 24, 2007 12:19 pm (#19 of 41)
The Delacours were not what I'd imagined, either. I never thought of Mrs. Delacour cleaning an oven! Of course, she probably carries her bottle of dragon's blood with her everywhere...

It does say she had the oven "properly cleaned," though. I wonder if she had a bit of "GoF/HBP-Fleur" in her -- can't you just hear "Look at zees oven! Sacre! *tsk-tsk* I shall have eet clean as zee wheestle!" and Molly pursing her lips and leaving the room...

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M A Grimmett - Jul 24, 2007 12:36 pm (#20 of 41)
Ron is spotted with a greasy handkerchief that he used to clean the oven.

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Robert Dierken - Jul 24, 2007 8:53 pm (#21 of 41)
I liked the joke about Ron thinking that Cinderella was an illness.

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Ida-ho-Potato - Jul 25, 2007 4:28 am (#22 of 41)
You would have thought that since most fairy tales are so old that they would have been simular. Cinderella did have a fairy Godmother. Maby that was a witch who actually helped Cinderella. Sure the stories would be slightly different but both starting from the same origin.

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Ann - Jul 25, 2007 5:17 am (#23 of 41)
They might even be the same stories, but with different names attached over time. I loved the book of children's stories. A perfect way to acquaint Hermione with some wizarding traditions one doesn't learn at Hogwarts, to illustrate that Ron sometimes knows things she doesn't, and of course to give her a clue about something that will prove important in their quest.

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Oruma - Jul 26, 2007 1:27 pm (#24 of 41)
Although Ron has many of the funniest lines in this chapter, I absolutely love this exchange:

(after Hermione demonstrates her understanding of Magical Law)

"Are you planning to follow a career in Magical Law, Miss Granger?" asked Scrimegour.

"No I'm not," retorted Hermione. " I'm hoping to do some good in the world!"

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Choices - Jul 26, 2007 1:31 pm (#25 of 41)
I was surprised at Fleur's parents. I had expected not to like them as I thought they would be self-centered and snooty like Fleur, but they turned out to be nice people and seemed to get along well with the Weasleys.

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Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 27, 2007 1:13 am (#26 of 41)
Oruma - that is one of my favourite lines in the book. Go Hermione.

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Choices - Jul 28, 2007 4:45 pm (#27 of 41)
It's interesting that Ginny kissed Harry "as she had never kissed him before".

Hagrid is wearing his "hairy brown suit" - that symbol of protection again.

His gift to Harry of the mokeskin bag sounds very useful - no one but the owner can open it.

Norbert is a GIRL. LOL

The Tales of Beedle the Bard - BEE-dle - Dumbledore means "bee" in another language.

Hermione informs us that snitches have "flesh memory" - they can remember who last caught them.

"I open at the close - " does that mean that at the end of Harry's quest the snitch will open? Hope he doesn't need what's inside before then.

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Steve Newton - Jul 28, 2007 6:57 pm (#28 of 41)
A slight correction. Snitches remember who first caught them.

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Choices - Jul 29, 2007 9:03 am (#29 of 41)
Thanks Steve - I meant that, I just said it wrong. They remember so it can be certain who caught them in a Quidditch game and who the winner is as a result.

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rambkowalczyk - Aug 1, 2007 11:07 am (#30 of 41)
I like how Harry speculates that there is a chapter in the book Ron gave him about giving compliments to one's girlfriends.

I thought Scrimgeour line that he and Harry were on the same sides was poignant. Too bad he was so stubborn. Did anyone tell him that Thickness was under the Imperious Curse?

The contents of Dumbledore's Will gives us more questions to answer.

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James Greenfield - Aug 7, 2007 10:32 am (#31 of 41)
In some Muggle folklore about witches and wizards, the tools needed to catch or oppose one are three: bell, book, and candle. Well, wouldn't the golden snitch (with something inside), the book of children's tales, and the Deluminator qualify? Or is this just coincidence?

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Soul Search - Aug 7, 2007 11:36 am (#32 of 41)
James Greenfield,

Good observation. I think is was "Ring the Bell, Close the Book, Snuff the Candle." (From the movie of the same name.) I don't see the snitch, or ring, serving as the "bell," however: neither makes a sound.

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Steve Newton - Aug 14, 2007 5:06 am (#33 of 41)
Will is a nicely ambiguous word. Dumbledore's will to defeat Voldemort is one of the themes of the book.

I guess this is not the place to bring up double entendres.

Ron's talking to Scrimgeous shows that he never saw "The Godfather."

"Harry's a great Seeker." Hermione.

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valuereflection - Aug 14, 2007 2:50 pm (#34 of 41)
Steve Newton, I'm afraid I never saw "The Godfather" either. What did Ron say to Scrimgeour that is an allusion to the movie?

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haymoni - Aug 17, 2007 5:14 pm (#35 of 41)
Get thee to a video store! Quick!

Steve - are you referring to "Don't let anyone outside the family know what you are thinking!" or "Keep your friends close but your enemies closer." ?

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valuereflection - Aug 18, 2007 8:04 am (#36 of 41)
Plese tell me. Please, please.

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Steve Newton - Aug 18, 2007 10:31 am (#37 of 41)
haymoni pretty much nailed it. You don't discuss family business outside the family.

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valuereflection - Aug 18, 2007 11:44 am (#38 of 41)
Okay. Thank you

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Chemyst - Aug 18, 2007 4:11 pm (#39 of 41)
Ron gives Harry the book 12 Fail-Safe Ways to Charm Witches for his birthday. That sets up a running theme of giving compliments— Does anyone recall in which previous book and under what circumstances Ron & Harry once lamented about not having a book that explained how girls think?

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Xenophilius - Aug 18, 2007 4:26 pm (#40 of 41)
It was OoP when Harry meets Ron and Hermione after he kissed Cho. Harry commented that Cho was crying at the time. Hermione goes on about all the emotions Cho is going through. Then Ron or Harry suggested that Hermione needed to write a book.

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valuereflection - Aug 18, 2007 7:04 pm (#41 of 41)
That is very funny, Chemyst. Good catch.

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Mona Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:21 am

Kip Carter - Jul 19, 2007 3:27 am
Edited Jul 25, 2007 12:23 am
This thread is to discuss Only Chapter Eight - The Wedding of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows!

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Finn BV - Jul 21, 2007 8:43 pm (#1 of 43)
Krum's reappearance was all too short -- I thought we'd see much more of him.

Xenophilia Lovegood -- what a name!

Muriel made me an angry, I got the idea she was a bit 'gaga' myself (always the butt of "my great-Auntie Muriel" jokes), not a Rita Skeeter-reading, Dumbledore-trashing kind of lady!

The close to this chapter was chilling.

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Jenniffler - Jul 21, 2007 8:59 pm (#2 of 43)
I loved the ceremony it was perfect.

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MickeyCee3948 - Jul 21, 2007 9:04 pm (#3 of 43)
Muriel was a real #@%?! if you get my drift. Of course she didn't know that it was Harry she was talking to, but it makes you wonder how Mrs. Weasley came out as well as she did. But I guess we all have a relative or two like that. I know I had an Aunt that could have played the part.

Mickey

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Ann - Jul 22, 2007 7:37 am (#4 of 43)
I don't know--I rather liked Auntie Muriel. She seemed very true to life, to me. When people get really old, they often feel they don't have to censor themselves and that they deserve deference simply for lasting so long. (Perhaps I'm sympathetic because I'm approaching that stage myself.)

I thought the wedding was lovely, and I'm glad it wasn't interrupted.

Luna's dad was a bit of a kick. Interesting Grindelwald connection, there. And Ron's still jealous of Viktor....

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Caius Iulius - Jul 22, 2007 9:56 am (#5 of 43)
I thought the name Xenophilius is so funny and fitting: he who loves/is kind to strangers/strange things.

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Michael Franz - Jul 22, 2007 1:49 pm (#6 of 43)
I think Auntie Muriel is an exact wizarding copy of Aunt Marge. If we put them in the same room together, magic and anti-magic would combine to form a huge explosion! Smile

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Mediwitch - Jul 22, 2007 7:23 pm (#7 of 43)
Nice catch, Michael Franz!

Lots of alchemy symbolism in this chapter.

Funny how Luna recognized Harry.

I'm so pleased the wedding was wrapping up before the Death Eaters came calling.

Elphias Doge and Aunt Muriel are at opposite ends of the spectrum in their opinions on Dumbledore.

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freshwater - Jul 22, 2007 7:30 pm (#8 of 43)
I think JKR has done a wonderful job of providing alternate views of DD, and then has given us reason to suspect the accuracy of both views.....she's always been strong on pointing out the uses and dangers of misinformation.

Good catch on the Muriel/Marge similarities, Michael Franz!

Loved that Luna knew Harry despite his disguise...another example that her perceptions are just different from most people's.

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essie125 - Jul 23, 2007 12:12 am (#9 of 43)
The Muriel/Marge thing occured to me as well, when I was reading it. I thought she reminds me of aunt Marge, but the movie version, cos she says something that the movie marge says as well, I think.

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Lina - Jul 23, 2007 3:00 am (#10 of 43)
I wonder if Luna recognized Harry because of her kind of "Inner Eye" that sees deeply into a person (like Moody's eye could see under the invisibility cloak) or just because she is a Ravenclaw and makes a conclusion out of the facts?

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Mare - Jul 23, 2007 5:10 am (#11 of 43)
I wondered if Luna recognised Harry because most people who don't know her (allmost all people) must look at her with a certain expression on their face. Harry however, was beyond this point and liked Luna for who she was, so maybe as Barny he still stood out because he looked and reacted to her not like any other stranger would.

Ad to that her "inner eye" and she should be set

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Holly T. - Jul 23, 2007 6:45 am (#12 of 43)
I thought Muriel was a lot like Marge too! And it was nice to see Viktor again, if only briefly.

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The giant squid - Jul 23, 2007 7:38 am (#13 of 43)
I thought Viktor's comment about all the good ones being taken was funny, especially with all the veela around.

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Nymphadora - Jul 23, 2007 9:03 am (#14 of 43)
I think Luna looks at people and sees them, where other people just look and see what they want/expect to see... That's her perceptive power.

But in addition, Luna loves Harry and the others, considers them friends. Such a person cannot be fooled by Polyjuice because she has taken the trouble to learn her friends' faces, mannerisms, grimaces, movements. She has drank them in while she was welcome in their midst, and she remembers everything fondly. Therefore she recognises the person rather than the face. Bless her!

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gankomon - Jul 24, 2007 1:16 pm (#15 of 43)
I think that "chilling" as a description of how Kingsley announced Voldemort's takeover of the Ministry is a serious understatement. "Terrifying" is how I think I might characterize Kingsley's announcement.

However, I wondered at the time, though perhaps this is the wrong place for it- didn't it sound that in the First War the Ministry's Aurors were in the forefront of the fight against Voldemort? Moody in particular seemed to be one of the fiercest fighters against Voldemort's legions and it seemed Voldemort never took over the Ministry.

This time around, it seemed as though the Ministry didn't really try very hard against Voldemort, and though its fall and Scrimgeour's murder were stunning (especially considering how early in the book it happened- I had expected the Ministry under Scrimgeour to hold out longer), it was never the force that I somehow expected. Although, with people like Umbridge running things, I can't say I'm too shocked.

I loved the rest of the wedding story- especially Ginny's reaction when little Gabrielle showed her own schoolgirl crush on Harry.

Regards,

gankomon

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legolas returns - Jul 25, 2007 11:47 am (#16 of 43)
Everything was going so well at the weddingand it was almost too good to be true. It had to be spoiled somehow.

I think the reason that it was easier for Voldemort to gain control/take over at the ministry this time was because the MOM had been denying that Voldemort had returned for so long. He had around a year to get a foothold and build a powerbase. The first time round it was more in the open and everyone new what was happening. I think that the ministry was still supressing things and as a result people were not as cautious as they should have been.

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Allison R - Jul 25, 2007 12:22 pm (#17 of 43)
gankomon-- "chilling", indeed! When I read that last sentence from Kingsley's Patronus I had a physical-fear reaction-- not something that happens to me often just from reading something. I felt it in the pit of my stomach, my pulse quickened and I sucked in my breath in alarm (all while trying to turn the page as quickly as I possibly could to find out what happened next, of course!).

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Ms Hagrid - Jul 25, 2007 12:44 pm (#18 of 43)
Very chilling! Did anyone notice that Kingsley's last sentence - "They are coming" - is also the last sentence that Gandalf the Grey reads from the dwarvish chronicle in Moria right before the orcs attack? Wonder if that was deliberate....

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Solitaire - Jul 25, 2007 6:32 pm (#19 of 43)
This time around, it seemed as though the Ministry didn't really try very hard against Voldemort
Gankomon, I think you answered your own comment: with people like Umbridge running things, I can't say I'm too shocked. Also, keep in mind that Amelia Bones (and who knows how many other honest Ministry workers like her) is no longer there to stand against them. I'm guessing some honest workers were so wary of Scrimgeour that they might have gotten out before things began to fall apart. And it seems so many who stayed were under the Imperius Curse that those who did want to fight back were just outnumbered. It also appears that some were afraid to speak out because they were married to Muggle-Borns and Half-bloods ... and they didn't want to call attention to themselves.

Solitaire

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Ann - Jul 26, 2007 3:00 am (#20 of 43)
Edited by Denise P. Jul 26, 2007 8:53 am
Ms Hagrid, I had the same association with "They are coming." The first time I read it, I heard drums echoing in my head, and it took me a moment to work out why. I suspect it was not an intentional allusion, however. The situations are so very different....

I agree with Solitaire, with the added proviso that most people are really anxious not to risk their jobs, particularly if they aren't *sure* what is going on. If you've managed to Imperius the higher ups without anyone noticing (although the Order seems to know about Thicknesse), most of the employees will probably just keep doing their jobs and trying to keep their heads down. Kingsley knows, because he's watching, and because he realizes that Scrimgeour is not just "resigned." And it's presumably the Aurors who are sent off to the wedding, so he's able to warn them.

Edit: Please don't put information from future chapters in specific threads, that is a spoiler. Thanks! Denise P.

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Madame Pomfrey - Jul 27, 2007 5:24 am (#21 of 43)
When Kingsley's patronus showed up saying "The Ministry has fallen.Scrimgeour is dead.They are coming." It was about 3am and a empty coke can fell out of a bag and caused me to jump out of my skin. I will never forget reading that part.

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M A Grimmett - Jul 27, 2007 6:08 am (#22 of 43)
That was so ominous, I was really creeped out. Way to break up a party, Kingsley!

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Allison R - Jul 27, 2007 9:06 am (#23 of 43)
Somehow, it was even more creepy that the sentence ended with a period instead of a couple of exclaimation marks. In my head I could just hear Kingley's deep voice booming ominously, "They are coming." I think if it had been, "They're coming! Run! Hide!!" that it wouldn't have been as effective for me.

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haymoni - Jul 28, 2007 6:07 am (#24 of 43)
I'm glad the wedding was at the Burrow.

I knew there would be some sort of attack there, but I wasn't expecting the fall of the whole Ministry.

I wonder if Scrimgeor told them that Harry was there. I'm sure they tortured him before they killed him.

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Allison R - Jul 28, 2007 7:08 pm (#25 of 43)
Haymoni, quite the opposite:

When Remus arrives at Number 12 Grimmauld Place to give them an update and he and Harry wind up having that confrontation, Lupin also briefs them on what happened after they fled The Burrow

"...Arthur heard a rumor that they tried to torture your whereabouts out of Srimgeour before they killed him; if it's true, he didn't give you away." (DH US pg. 206)

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Choices - Jul 29, 2007 10:12 am (#26 of 43)
Harry takes a large dose of Polyjuice Potion - the larger the dose, the longer it lasts?

Gnome saliva is enormously beneficial. ;-)

Aunt Muriel's tiara is Goblin made and has been in the family for centuries.

Viktor Krum attends the wedding, confronts Xenophilius Lovegood about the symbol he is wearing and leaves.

Hermione's little bag is quite heavy. Wish I had one that held as much. LOL

Are preachers in the Wizarding World few and far between? The same one who did Dumbledore's funeral, marries Bill and Fleur.

We are reminded of "Odo the Hero" again.

Here is something I find odd - Aunt Muriel wades into the story of Kendra Dumbledore and Ariana. She makes the statement to Harry that......

"It all happened years and years before you were even thought of, my dear, and the truth is that those of us who were alive then never knew what really happened."

She says that, but then she goes on about it as if she does know what really happened. But that is not the oddest thing. Muriel states at least twice that she is one hundred and seven years old. Now Dumbledore, at the time of his death, was about 157 years old (approx.). He was about 50 years older than Muriel. All the to-do with Kendra and Ariana happened during the time that Dumbledore was a student at Hogwarts or just after he finished. Muriel was not even born at that time and wouldn't arrive in the world for another 30 years or so. Now, my math skills are about as bad as JKR's, but even so, this does not add up to me. Muriel says she was a child (listening at the door) when Kendra died and her funeral was held. Any ideas?

Aberforth is the one who broke Albus' nose. What about "Episky" - surely a Healer could have repaired the damage. It was not a magical injury. Aberforth punched him - fist to nose - a Muggle-type fight.

The Dumbledore's moved to Godric's Hollow after Percival went to prison and Bathilda Bagshot was their neighbor. (I still think it possible that the Potter's were staying in Dumbledore's house when they were killed. The house would have been empty, as Albus was at Hogwarts and Aberforth lived in Hogsmeade.)

Kingsley's Patronus is a lynx. It delivers a verbal message in Kingsley's voice. I don't guess I had ever thought about how the Patronus message is communicated before.

Voldemort has taken over the MOM, Scrimgeour is dead and DE's are coming. Yikes!

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Luna Logic - Jul 29, 2007 11:16 am (#27 of 43)
Edited by Jul 29, 2007 12:21 pm
While reading this chapter, I began to note ages on a sheet of paper because I was a bit lost.
Muriel says that her mother was a friend of Bathilda."My mother was friendly with old Bathilda Bagshot', said Auntie Muriel happily. 'Bathilda described the whole thing to mother while I was listening at the door." (p. 131 Bloomsbury)
Maybe the friendship between Bathilda and Muriel's Mother took place much later, when Muriel was born? While Bathilda was gossiping on past events.
edited :
But, when Albus was young, it seems Bathilda was already an historian. She seems to have attended the funeral. I asked myself, how old was Bathilda when she died ? She was much older than Albus?

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Allison R - Jul 29, 2007 11:16 am (#28 of 43)
Harry takes a large dose of Polyjuice Potion - the larger the dose, the longer it lasts?

Choices, I have speculated as much earlier in this thread. The amount taken, I think, determines how long the illusion will last.

Aberforth is the one who broke Albus' nose. What about "Episky" - surely a Healer could have repaired the damage. It was not a magical injury. Aberforth punched him - fist to nose - a Muggle-type fight.

This is just my opinion, but I think that Dd would have chosen to keep the damage to his nose as a visual reminder of the dangers he exposes himself and all whom he loves to when he is confronted with an excess of power. I think he felt so miserable and guilt-laden over what had happened to Ariana that he probably felt he deserved the pain and may not have sought any relief from it.

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Choices - Jul 29, 2007 11:51 am (#29 of 43)
Good thoughts about the nose, Allison. Seems like just the kind of thing Albus would do. :-)

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deletedaccount - Jul 29, 2007 3:21 pm (#30 of 43)
Harry's nose was broken via fist in previous book and was fixable with a spell.

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Solitaire - Jul 29, 2007 7:55 pm (#31 of 43)
Harry takes a large dose of Polyjuice Potion - the larger the dose, the longer it lasts?

I wondered about this, as well. When the kids made and used the Polyjuice Potion back in CoS, I thought they had only one hour before they began to change back into themselves. And remember that Fake Moody/Barty Jr. was always taking swigs from his flask ... I don't remember anything about the amount or strength making the changes last longer. Hm ...

Solitaire

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Esther Rose - Jul 30, 2007 5:59 am (#32 of 43)
I think it's more like "the longer it sits, the longer it lasts."

Remember what Slughorn said in HBP when he was giving an antidote to the Love Potion that Ron consumed. The longer the potion has been sitting, the stronger it will be. (I don't have the book with me nor have I remembered the quote verbatum. I just remember that that is where we got the information.)

So, It could be assumed that perhaps the Polyjuice Potion had been brewed for longer than one month.

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megfox* - Jul 30, 2007 6:13 am (#33 of 43)
My husband preordered the book at Toys R Us (no idea why, B&N was right across the street!) and they didn't have a midnight party, so I couldn't get my book until Saturday afternoon when Maddy woke up from her nap. I had to go to work at 4:00, and this was the last chapter I read. Imagine my horror at the being the last line I could read until the next day! I literally had this pit in my stomach all night!

I really thought that the whole Auntie Muriel scene was a great way to get everything into a frenzy in Harry's head before Kingsley's patronus shows up. As I was reading, I felt all swirly, kind of how I think Harry was feeling. All of these things about Dumbledore that just go against everything we know about him, all confirming what Harry has been worried about since reading the Skeeter article, and he seems to be going into a little bit of shock. And then...BOOM...the Ministry has fallen. I think the pacing of this chapter was excellent - can't you just see and hear Muriel, all old and crinkly, with a gossipy old woman voice, telling Harry these things while he is getting more and more upset, and then the bottom falls out of everything? It made me so anxious!

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rambkowalczyk - Aug 2, 2007 3:05 pm (#34 of 43)
I noticed that there was no mention that Harry was drinking polyjuice every hour. I like Ester Rose's explanation.

Impressed that Luna recognised him. Obviously she sees things that others don't notice.

I like Hermiones comeback to Ron's compliment on how nice she looks. "Always the tone of surprise.

It said that Fleur's radiance beautified everyone else on her wedding day. I know in the last book she said she was pretty enough to make up for Bill's scars. But more importantly, it shows how happy she is to be married to Bill and that she wishes her happiness to spread.

When it was revealed that Dumbledore's sister was locked in the basement, it made me wonder if she was a werewolf.

Grindalwald's mark. I know prior to Hitler the Swastika symbol did not have the connotations that it does now. It was a more innocent symbol. Could the same be said of Grindalwald's mark?

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TomProffitt - Aug 2, 2007 3:12 pm (#35 of 43)
Grindalwald's mark. I know prior to Hitler the Swastika symbol did not have the connotations that it does now. It was a more innocent symbol. Could the same be said of Grindalwald's mark? --- rambkowalczyk

I think that this is a reasonable supposition. And of course, Xeno Lovegood would be completely ignorant of the modern implications of the symbol he wore. So, Krum and Lovegood were equally in the right and the wrong for their confrontation.

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Finn BV - Aug 9, 2007 5:59 pm (#36 of 43)
As for Muriel being 107 but definitely not alive across the whole Dumbledore family episode -- I immediately assumed she was just using her age as a pretentious excuse: obviously Harry (or Barny) wasn't around then, so because she looks so old she gains credibility by making it look like she was alive when the whole thing happened. Does that make any sense? (It seems very poorly worded to me. )

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Phelim Mcintyre - Aug 10, 2007 3:16 am (#37 of 43)
Reading the part where Murial talks about this, she mentions being at the door when Batilda Bagshott talks to her mum about this. This could explain the age problem.

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Muggle Doctor - Aug 16, 2007 6:44 am (#38 of 43)
These are the thoughts that flashed through my head as I read Kingsley's message to the wedding guests:

Consider that for as long as any of the wedding guests had been alive (even Muriel, probably!), the Ministry had been the keeper of order and justice in the old repub... oops, wrong fandom, but you know what I mean.

Consider that Scrimgeour was an ex-auror who was at least trying to do something, even if it wasn't always the right thing, and that as Minister he embodied all the authority, pomp, circumstance and reassurance of the rule of law that was inherent in said Ministry.

In seven words, Kingsley throws all that to the wind.

And then "They are coming." He doesn't need to say who, or when, or why. All are self-evident.

Before they even have time to contemplate how much their world has changed (and how quickly!), they are fighting for their lives. It is to their credit that as many of them got out as actually did.

But thinking about it, you really had the cream of the crop at that wedding. Virtually every adult in the Weasley family is an Order member, and those who aren't (the twins) are DA members and powerful wizards in their own right. Most of the hard core of the DA is there (Ginny, Luna, Hermione, Ron, Harry). All three living Triwizard champions (Harry, Fleur, Viktor) are present. If the Delacour parents are anything like their eldest daughter, they're no slouches either. That wedding was probably the safest place to be.

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Steve Newton - Aug 28, 2007 8:25 am (#39 of 43)
I don't know that I'd want to get married, or anything else, under balloons arranged by the twins.

The procession snakes it way through the garden.

For living just over the hill from each other the Weasleys and Lovegoods don't seem to be close. Ron later doesn't seem to know where they live but Ginny knows Luna.

"Always the tone of surprise." A good running joke.

"Vot...is the point of being an international Quidditch player if all the good looking girls are taken." Indeed.

"They are coming." A great line which seems to remind me of something but I can't remember what.

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azi - Aug 28, 2007 9:40 am (#40 of 43)
Edited Aug 28, 2007 11:11 am
Steve - I keep thinking 'They are coming' is in Lord of the Rings somewhere, but I can't find it. Sounds like something Gandalf would say. I think it's the sort of phrase that will appear in more than one book/film anyway.

Edit - found it! Gandalf says it in the film - in Moria when the orcs are coming to attack them next to Balin's grave.

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Joanna Lupin - Aug 28, 2007 12:22 pm (#41 of 43)
In the Balin's diary, these are the last words.

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Steve Newton - Aug 28, 2007 5:01 pm (#42 of 43)
That's it! I knew it sounded familiar.

Thanks, Joanna.

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legolas returns - Aug 28, 2007 10:56 pm (#43 of 43)
Why waste time reinventing the wheel. "They are coming" is a very quick and precise way of passing on information when he would probably be under attack himself.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Mona Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:22 am

Kip Carter - Jul 19, 2007 3:35 am
Edited Jul 25, 2007 12:24 am
This thread is to discuss Only Chapter Nine - A Place to Hide of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows!

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Finn BV - Jul 21, 2007 8:45 pm (#1 of 20)
Hermione says on p. 167 (Scholastic) that she's never done a Memory Charm, but she knows the theory. How'd she wipe her parents' minds clean and send them off to Australia, then? I couldn't imagine this was a continuity error -- not within the same book as the conflicting statement.

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Ms Hagrid - Jul 22, 2007 5:59 am (#2 of 20)
I noticed this too. Is it possible that modifying memories is a different process from obliviating them?

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TomProffitt - Jul 22, 2007 6:41 am (#3 of 20)
I noticed this too. Is it possible that modifying memories is a different process from obliviating them? --- Ms Hagrid

I think so. I also think that Hermione had plenty of time, and probably help in modifying the memories of her parents. She also would have had, I surmise, the mostly willing cooperation of her parents. Conversely what she had to do here was impromptu and plagued with Hermione's typical "performance anxiety" she would always get at exam time.

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Ann - Jul 22, 2007 7:42 am (#4 of 20)
That bothered me, too. But in the interests of *our* sanity, I suppose we'll have to assume that TomProffitt is right. After all, Ron first claimed that he'd charmed the ghoul, and then later said he'd had help. I can see Bill and Mr. Weasley helping Hermione as well.

Pity Harry wasn't facing the other direction and didn't recognize the men when they came in. These three need to learn to only eat in restaurants with mirrors, like mafiosi.

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Mediwitch - Jul 22, 2007 7:34 pm (#5 of 20)
Mad-Eye's jinxes scared me!

How did Mr. Weasley's patronus find them at 12 GP? Do they work like Owl Post, they just need to know who they're going to, not where?

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Connie1983 - Jul 25, 2007 4:00 am (#6 of 20)
Edited by Kip Carter Jul 26, 2007 11:35 pm
But how did the two DE's found them? Don't have my book at the ready but I thought thatthey didn't say Voldemorts jinxed name out loud after disapparating, or did I just miss that?

I whited out Connie's second sentence because I felt that her information was not yet known at this stage of Book Seven. - Kip

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Ann - Jul 25, 2007 5:22 am (#7 of 20)
Connie, it's explained that they are watching any place Harry might be hiding. 12 GP was left to Harry by Sirius, and his will listing the property is on record at the Ministry. (Lucky that the Ministry didn't take *that* to look for Dark objects and curses.) So even though they can't see the house, they know the address and know it's there. So they're watching.

I was wrong--Hermione definitely did the memory charms on her parents herself, so the place in this chapter where she says she's never done one but knows the theory is simply a slip by JKR and her continuity editors. They should really have had a fan read this through!

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Connie1983 - Jul 25, 2007 6:21 am (#8 of 20)
Ann, I didn't mean 12GP but the 'mugglestreet' and cafe they went first. But now I think of it, maybe that was at the end of the previous chapter, I wasn't 100% sure if it was already in this one or in Ch.8 and couldn't check it.

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Ms Hagrid - Jul 25, 2007 6:30 am (#9 of 20)
Edited Jul 25, 2007 8:27 am
Connie1983 - Actually, one of the trio (not sure who) uses Voldemort's name while they are in the cafe discussing where they ought to go next. Almost immediately after, two DEs disguised as workmen enter the cafe.

In the Scholastic edition, this occurs on page 164.

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Connie1983 - Jul 25, 2007 6:32 am (#10 of 20)
Thanks Ms. Hagrid, I just totally missed that and was almosted convinced they didn't, well I guess that's a very good reason to do a reread! Wink

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Ann - Jul 25, 2007 6:37 am (#11 of 20)
Yes, it all makes much more sense the second time around. One isn't missing all sorts of interesting (and informative) details because one is so desperate to get to the answers.

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nthdavid - Jul 26, 2007 3:21 am (#12 of 20)
Ann - there is no reason to assume that Hermoine's statement about obliviate was an error. In the earlier chapter it says she modified her parents memory and that she was going to restore it if she survived. It doesn't say that she erased her parent's memory.

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Ann - Jul 26, 2007 4:49 am (#13 of 20)
I was trying to rationalize this mistake, too, in an earlier post, suggesting that Hermione didn't actually modify her parents' memory herself or that the charms were different, but on my re-read, it's pretty clear it's a mistake:

Chapter 6: "I've also modified my parents' memories...." and "I think I've cast a good enough charm to keep them safe and happy."

Chapter 9: [Ron says] "But I've never done a Memory Charm." "Nor have I," said Hermione, "but I know the theory."

The charms used are probably different, but they're both Memory Charms. (And one would assume a reversible charms would actually be harder than Obliviation, since blunt destruction is normally simpler than hiding or shielding.)

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Wanda - Jul 26, 2007 7:37 am (#14 of 20)
Edited by Jul 26, 2007 8:37 am
The trio mention Voldemort's name numerous times when they're hiding out in Grimmauld Place. Why don't they get jumped by DEs then like they did on Tottenham Court Road? I'm assuming it's because of the house being unplottable and all it's other secrecy measures, but it still doesn't make sense to me. Surely, even if the DEs couldn't get into the house, the fact that people keep breaking the taboo and using V's name would tell them for sure that someone was hiding out in Grimmauld Place, and it wouldn't take long for someone with brains to work out who it was, i.e. Harry and friends.

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deletedaccount - Jul 26, 2007 10:36 am (#15 of 20)
DEs were watching the house.

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Wanda - Jul 26, 2007 1:46 pm (#16 of 20)
Yes, but Lupin said it himself that the DEs were watching all the houses where they thought Harry might be, and tailing all Order Members. My point is that given the speed with which the DEs caught up with them on Tottenham Court Road after saying the V word, surely they must have known that there were people in Grimmauld place breaking the taboo.

It just strikes me as really odd that they kept saying it and nothing ever happened. When Harry said the V word in their tent, even with all their protection around them, the snatchers managed to get to them immediately. I personally think it's a serious continuity problem.

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Oruma - Jul 27, 2007 12:16 am (#17 of 20)
Edited Jul 27, 2007 2:24 am
But the fact that something DID happen: DEs were on the lookout for them for an entire month, and more arrived to watch on September 1st----so they probably speculated or knew that Harry was in there, but the Fidelius Charm kept the DEs out.

As for when they broke the Taboo and got caught...Ron actually said "we've got to put the protection back around us" (at end of "The Deathly Hollows" chapter)...could it mean that the trio left their guard down and didn't put up their protective measures? That may be how the Snatchers get to them so quickly.

edit Thanks to Madam Pince Wink

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Madam Pince - Jul 27, 2007 12:25 am (#18 of 20)
Oruma, it's these brackets < > instead of these [ ], and you have to put "font color=white" (without quotes naturally) and "/font" in the brackets to do hidden text.

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rambkowalczyk - Aug 2, 2007 3:17 pm (#19 of 20)
They should really have had a fan read this through! Ann

My sentiments exactly.

One thing I find confusing is in Moody's eyes, what was to stop Snape from telling Voldemort where 12 Grimmauld Place is outside of Grimmauld Place. It looks as though the tongue tying curse only takes effect when Snape is inside the front hall presumably after he brought Voldemort. I mean Snape could have told Voldemort at the Leaky Cauldron and Voldemort could have camped out in Sirius' bedroom or kitchen.

Then I thought that maybe the secret has to be told in the vicinity of Grimmauld place. Harry was told just outside the front door.

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Finn BV - Aug 3, 2007 9:15 am (#20 of 20)
Ehh, don't jump to conclusions so quickly! JKR explained in the webchat that all was correct; they are two different types of charms (search the page for 'memory charm'). I had a feeling it was something like this, because I don't think JKR would have made such an obvious error, and that her continuity error, who has appeared a number of times on PotterCast and sounds very intelligent, would have missed this.

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Mona Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:25 am

Chapter Ten - Kreacher's Tale

Kip Carter - Jul 19, 2007 3:41 am
Edited Jul 25, 2007 12:26 am
This thread is to discuss Only Chapter Ten - Kreacher's Tale of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows!

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Anna L. Black - Jul 21, 2007 11:33 am (#1 of 45)
(Before I write anything, I just want to say that I chose what is right over what is easy, and though my Bloomsbury edition of the book will arrive safely to my house tomorrow morning, I went and bought a Scholastic edition in the nearest open store I could find Before that, I couldn't work, I couldn't concentrate.)

So, I just finished Chapter Ten (Kreacher's Tale), and I have to say this: JKR is a genius!!! How many times did we rehash the theories about Regulus being R.A.B, about the Trio searching up Grimmauld Place and Hermione realizing they had the locket all along, about Mundungus being the one who has it, about Regulus going into the cave with Kreacher, even about Kreacher drinking the green potion (I, for one, was sure it was this that made him crazy)? And how close, and yet how far from the truth were we?!?! As I was reading it at first, I said to my parents, "You know, the fans pretty much guessed all of it..." But I couldn't be more wrong! I take my hat off. JKR is the best there is, and she had me, again, hanging on her every word.

Well, off to chapter eleven!

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Madam Pince - Jul 21, 2007 11:36 am (#2 of 45)
I knew it was Kreacher in the boat in the cave with R.A.B.! (Even though I wanted to believe R.A.B. could've been R. Andromeda Black, but still...) I'm the teensiest bit disappointed in the R.A.B. thing -- it seemed too obvious to me to be Regulus so I was suspicious. Sigh...

Funny that Sirius had an eye for Muggle pin-ups! I have a mental image of a mane of layered blonde hair and a red swimsuit and a lot of big white teeth! Wouldn't he just have loved tweaking his Mum by admiring muggles!

Dumbledore's still got his Invisibility Cloak, so no chance of little excursions... Duh, duh, and double-duh! Yet again missing the forest for the trees! The reason DD had the cloak had nothing to do with Dumbledore needing the cloak for any reason -- it was just to prevent James and Lily from possibly being rash and leaving the safety of their Fidelius-charmed home! I feel so dense...

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MickeyCee3948 - Jul 21, 2007 12:09 pm (#3 of 45)
Don't jump to conclusions Madam Pince there was another reason that DD had the cloak so please read on.

Mickey

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Madam Pince - Jul 21, 2007 2:34 pm (#4 of 45)
Yes, I see that on the next page, but I still think it was my original thought. Harry's conclusions aren't always the right ones. (Of course, neither are mine! That's the understatement of the year...)

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Caput Draconis - Jul 21, 2007 11:10 pm (#5 of 45)
I love that characters keep popping up and telling their story, or doing something to give us a new impression of them. I never thought I would have any particular interest in Kreacher, let alone like him, but I did by the end of this chapter. I even think I will read the SPEW chapters from previous books with a new fondness. Nice one, JK.

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Ann - Jul 22, 2007 8:04 am (#6 of 45)
I agree with Anna--most of us had worked out that RAB was Regulus and Kreacher had something to do with his being able to get the Horcrux. But somehow reading JKR's account was much, much better. It probably has something to do with the fact that this is what really happened and not just fan theory or fan discussion, but I think it is mostly just because of her amazing inventive mind. I mean, she's managed to use this incident to demonstrate, yet again, that Voldemort's evil disregard for people and creatures (Kreacher) he regards as inferior is a stupid. In this case, it allowed Kreacher to get the locket.

I also love that Dumbledore is still teaching and guiding Harry, even after his death. That, too, is a kind of immortality. And I was delighted to get a bit of Lily's voice, even if it was broken off. And I think the happy home life Harry obviously enjoyed for his first 15 months is probably the reason he turned out so differently than Voldemort.

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Mediwitch - Jul 22, 2007 7:45 pm (#7 of 45)
It's neat how the publishers use different fonts for different people's handwriting. I immediately "recognized" RAB's.

Regulus was a Seeker too. Both Harry and Regulus sought to destroy LV. Cool.

Kreacher made me want to cry. House elves have powerful magic indeed. Kudos to the theorists who go this one right!

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Holly T. - Jul 23, 2007 6:47 am (#8 of 45)
I liked the part about baby Harry and his first broom. My daughter said that's why he's so good at flying.

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M A Grimmett - Jul 23, 2007 7:02 am (#9 of 45)
I liked Kreatur's redemption. Hermione was right about SPEW. One brother treated him kindly, and he's still devoted to that master. The other treated him quite badly--and we all know how that turned out. I liked hearing from Lily directly; before it's always really been James' voice we heard the most. I really liked seeing the little bit of family life there. I thought it was great that Regulus got some personality of his own and that he also got the choice to make things right!

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Nymphadora - Jul 23, 2007 9:05 am (#10 of 45)
Baby Harry's photo made me want to bawl my eyes out. I did later when I found out where the rest of the photo had gone...

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Solitaire - Jul 23, 2007 12:36 pm (#11 of 45)
Drinking the potion certainly took a toll on Kreacher. The death of Regulus--the Black I'm convinced he truly loved most--coming so soon afterward must have broken his little House-elf heart. On top of it all, he was forbidden to tell Mrs. Black what had happened, which might have eased her pain somewhat. She was probably like Narcissa--a nasty piece of work at times, but she truly loved her son. Then, when she died, he was left alone in that house with all of his disturbing memories. No wonder he was unhinged. Look at the effect a bit of kindness and respect had on him. Dumbledore and Hermione have been right all along.

Solitaire

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journeymom - Jul 23, 2007 1:01 pm (#12 of 45)
And how close, and yet how far from the truth were we?!?!

Exactly. Kreacher's Tale was exactly what I imagined, how it had been discussed here. But I did not anticipate Kreacher coming around like that. I felt so sorry for him! The poor guy has been through Hell! It was very touching.

Funny that Sirius had an eye for Muggle pin-ups! I have a mental image of a mane of layered blonde hair and a red swimsuit and a lot of big white teeth!

LOL! I pictured that, too! That might be an American bias, though.

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vball man - Jul 23, 2007 10:11 pm (#13 of 45)
This chapter was brilliant. Kreacher was great. What horror!

She gave just enough clues about what was coming that I dreaded to keep reading and couldn't stop at the same time. Wow.

One problem - JKR wrote that voldy refilled the basin after Kreacher drank. It should have been an auto-refilling basin. Otherwise, how did it refill after RAB drank?

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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 24, 2007 5:52 am (#14 of 45)
Is it plausible the basin was designed in such a way that it could differentiate between house elves and humans. In the sense that when a wizard or witch would drink from the basin the protections would activate but, when a house-elf does thw protections would not activate.

Considering tom Riddle's belief system I doubt that he would have believed that a house was capable of destroying the locket or getting past his protections.

Like many inthe wizarding world Riddle believe that tthe Magic employed House Elves and oter sentient beings he considers beasts are inferior to his own powers.

Perhaps Voldy refilled the basin numerous times in a vain effort to keep kreacher from being sane enough to reveal the location of the cave because, he recognized the danger that having Kreacher along posed after Kreacher entered the cave.

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Ms Hagrid - Jul 24, 2007 6:02 am (#15 of 45)
Did Harry free Kreacher by giving him Regulus's locket?

I know, we aren't definitly told this - and the locket is jewelry rather than clothing....

But if Kreacher wasn't free to act on his own - how did he end up back at Hogwarts by the end of the book?

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Solitaire - Jul 24, 2007 9:06 am (#16 of 45)
I'm not sure if Harry freed Kreacher or not ... but by giving Kreacher the locket, he did something very important: He acknowledged Kreacher's love of and service to Regulus and the other Black family members and rewarded him for it, almost like a bequest from a will. Not only that ... by making their request to find Mundungus and bring him there seem like the completion of the work started by "Master Regulus," they gave credit to Regulus, which really seemed to win Kreacher's affections and loyalty.

Solitaire

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NFla Barbara - Jul 24, 2007 3:06 pm (#17 of 45)
I think there's a difference between being able to come and go and being free to act. Remember that Dobby showed up in Harry's room before he was freed -- he was still serving the Malfoys. I loved Kreacher's evolution, though.

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Soul Search - Jul 25, 2007 10:13 am (#18 of 45)
Maybe I missed something. Did Regulus turn on Voldemort because Voldemort mis-used his house elf?

True, Regulus seemed fond of Kreacher, but how could a true Death Eater be fond of a lower being? If that is the case, it doesn't seem Regulus was ever firmly in the Death Eater camp and joined only from family pressure.

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 25, 2007 10:25 am (#19 of 45)
"it doesn't seem Regulus was ever firmly in the Death Eater camp and joined only from family pressure."

That is the way I read it. Regulas was never meant to be a "true" DeathEater. He in truth, was Sirus's brother.

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Solitaire - Jul 25, 2007 6:36 pm (#20 of 45)
Like others, I think we are probably seeing Regulus mirrored in Draco Malfoy. Draco may still be with Voldy technically ... but i get the idea that his infatuation with and dedication to the Dark Lord have gone seriously south.

Solitaire

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Ann - Jul 26, 2007 3:05 am (#21 of 45)
The stack of clippings from long before he became a DE, as well as the fact that he joined at such a young age, suggests to me that he was quite enthusiastic at the beginning. (Although one wonders, at that age, if he was doing it partly to get up Sirius's nose.) I would suspect that Voldemort's casual attitude about leaving Kreacher to die may have started to change his mind, but there were probably a lot more off-stage events that contributed, too. Being a Death Eater can't be that much fun.

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Madame Librarian - Jul 27, 2007 5:48 pm (#22 of 45)
My husband and I were discussing the very thing the last few posts are dealing with. We wonder what was it that caused Regulus to change his mind about Voldemort and the DEs.

I was wondering if there had been some throwaway reference in an earlier book or something obscure in this book, but I don't recall anything other than the scene in OoP where Sirius is showing Harry the Black family tree and telling him about various members and their allegiances. He talks about his brother's death as a the expected outcome of someone who disavows the DEs, but never mentions why exactly Regulus does that. Anyone think of anything I'm missing here?

If not, I'd have to echo Soul Search's suggestion that it was probably the treatment of Kreacher that turned Regulus. There's a nice symmetry to that in terms of the situation Harry finds himself in as Kreacher's current owner, realizing he can get better cooperation with honey than with vinegar. This bit also furthers JKR's overall theme of the redemptive power of love--in this case, the love (fondness, let's call it) Regulus had for Kreacher. I still wonder why he felt he had to take such drastic action though. Did he figure that a mild expression of anger toward Voldemort was a form of suicide anyway? At least by stealing the locket (at the cost of his own life), he knew he would get posthumous revenge. Did he know the true value of the locket or about horcruxes at all?

Now that I think about it, mayber those pics of the Muggle pin-up girls were supposed to tell us that even as a junior DE or whatever Regulus was when he was younger, Regulus thought Muggles (at least girl Muggles) were cool, so he couldn't completely buy into the race superiority thing. Maybe he was trying to do what dear Mom expected of him. Perhaps she gave him the cuttings on Voldmemort, and he found his own form of wall decor to counterbalance things.

Ciao. Barb

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Choices - Jul 27, 2007 5:55 pm (#23 of 45)
I read a theory in a book - it speculated that since Regulus' father died the same year he did, that perhaps his father was killed by Voldemort or DE's and this caused Regulus to seek revenge. The theory said that perhaps Mr. Black had somehow discovered Voldemort's secret of being a half-blood and he was killed for that reason. Just thought I'd throw that out since we will probably never know for sure and I suppose it's possible that it happened that way.

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virginiaelizabeth - Jul 27, 2007 10:49 pm (#24 of 45)
I lovveed this chapter! I had this theory almost exact, though, I will say that I flipped between two versions of it, the second being a bit further from the truth! But still! It's the only theory that I had about 90% right!

My favorite line: "Perhaps one more, Master Harry, for luck?" LOL what a change in Kreacher's personality! I thought that was great!

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Muggle Doctor - Jul 28, 2007 7:46 am (#25 of 45)
Edited by Catherine Jul 28, 2007 10:46 am
I was thinking that same thing about Regulus turning on Voldemort because of what he did to Kreacher today. Voldemort might have said things in front of (or to) Kreacher that made it clear what the real locket was. About all you can fault Regulus for was not having a clear way to destroy it before he condemned himself to death, and perhaps not realizing that there wasn't just the one.

Spoiler Removed... After what Voldemort did to him, Regulus then turns around and sacrifices himself for his House-elf instead of demanding things be the other way round (which is what one would expect). The smartest thing Harry ever did was to start being nice to Kreacher, although that wouldn't have been hard, once he realized that he, Regulus and Kreacher all had the same thing in mind (the destruction of the locket).

I suppose it's an honest enough mistake to make - the only House-elf belonging to dark wizards that Harry had known before Kreacher, had been grossly mistreated by those Dark wizards, and there were reasons for Harry and other non-dark wizards to dislike Kreacher for himself, not solely because he was a house elf.

Edited to remove a spoiler. Please do not hint about future spoilers in these chapter threads, even if you think you are being discreet.--catherine

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PatPat - Jul 28, 2007 3:38 pm (#26 of 45)
Did anyone else think that the Potters' cat was Crookshanks after reading Lily's letter? Or was that just my crazy thought?

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deletedaccount - Jul 28, 2007 3:54 pm (#27 of 45)
Yes, I thought of Crookshanks too.

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Choices - Jul 28, 2007 3:55 pm (#28 of 45)
PatPat, are you talking about Lily's letter to Sirius (Padfoot)? It says that Harry was riding the toy broom and nearly killed the cat. What made you think it was Crookshanks? Just curious.....Am I missing something?

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PatPat - Jul 29, 2007 8:14 am (#29 of 45)
Yes, that's the cat I was referring to, Choices. Like I said, it might have been a crazy thought, but Harry wondered, after reading the letter, what happened to the cat. We know Crookshanks had been in the pet store a long time before Hermione bought him. For some reason, I just immediately thought that the Potters' cat was going to turn out to be Crookshanks who had escaped from the ruined house. I guess I was trying too hard to tie loose ends together!

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Choices - Jul 29, 2007 9:08 am (#30 of 45)
LOL Now that you reason it out, I can see why you thought of Crookshanks. Maybe in that encyclopedia JKR is going to write, we will get some backstory on Crookshanks. I have wondered myself where he came from and why he had been at the magical pet shoppe for so long.

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Nicoline Vance - Jul 29, 2007 8:53 pm (#31 of 45)
I was hoping that Crookshanks was the Potters' cat too. I was looking for more connections in Harry's life. Crookshanks would have known to trust Sirius/Snuffles in POA because he was not the traitor. Oh well.

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Solitaire - Jul 30, 2007 3:51 pm (#32 of 45)
Yes, I was positive we'd see Crookshanks again, and I'm disappointed that we did not. I did think he might have been the Potters' cat, as well.

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Choices - Jul 30, 2007 4:40 pm (#33 of 45)
Crookshanks was at The Burrow with Hermione before the wedding. I am speculating she left him there when she, Ron and Harry left hurriedly after the wedding reception. He definitely wasn't in that little **snicker** bag she was carrying.

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Chemyst - Jul 31, 2007 12:40 pm (#34 of 45)
They couldn't let the cat out of the bag about what they were doing, could they?

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Madame Librarian - Jul 31, 2007 12:46 pm (#35 of 45)
Meeeeeoooowwww!

(That's CatTalk for "grooooaaaan.")

Good one, Chemyst.

Ciao. Barb

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PatPat - Aug 2, 2007 11:54 am (#36 of 45)
OK, I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought Crookshanks was the Potters' cat. I submitted that question to the JKR live chat but, alas, she did not get to it. Maybe she will answer on her web site.

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Soul Search - Aug 2, 2007 12:07 pm (#37 of 45)
Sisius got to know Crookshanks rather well in PoA. He must have, at least, seen the Potter's cat, since Lily just casually mentioned it in her letter to him. Sirius never mentioned the Potter's cat, nor any resemblance to Crookshanks.

Of course, given that Crookshanks is not the Potter's cat, we have to wondered what happened to it.

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PatPat - Aug 2, 2007 12:32 pm (#38 of 45)
That's a good point, SS, but not necessarily. I talk about my dog all the time to people who have never seen him. Anyway, I'm not saying this is the case. It was just the first thing that popped into my head when I saw that the Potters had a cat.

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legolas returns - Aug 2, 2007 12:52 pm (#39 of 45)
The cat probably went to see Bathilda when it got really hungry or some other wizarding family. I doubt it would have done a Greyfriars Bobby.

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rambkowalczyk - Aug 2, 2007 3:44 pm (#40 of 45)
I loved this chapter, especially Kreachers answer to how he escaped the Inferi. "Master Regulus told Kreacher to come back." Voldemort definately underestimates the power of house elfs.

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NFla Barbara - Aug 7, 2007 1:23 pm (#41 of 45)
This was a great chapter. Like some earlier posters I was "filling in the blanks" a bit about why Regulus "turned." Perhaps he went through something like what Draco seemed to be going through in Book 6 (and continues in Book 7) -- a realization that being a DE is not all it's cracked up to be and will require him to do really hideous things. Fondness for Kreacher had to be a part of it, but there might have been more as well. Sacrificing yourself for your house-elf alone seems like a bit of a stretch for someone from Regulus's background.

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Esther Rose - Aug 7, 2007 2:14 pm (#42 of 45)
Or perhaps Voldemort sort of let out the beans on himself. As in he said something to the effect "I am so sorry about your house elf. I tried to keep him safe but he suddenly fell sick and died during our mission. It was most unfortunate."

Regulus knowing that Kreatcher was still alive, may have figured out that something was amiss and might have been curious enough to investigate.

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rambkowalczyk - Aug 7, 2007 2:52 pm (#43 of 45)
It would also be in character for Voldemort to say nothing about the House Elf because it was too insignificant to mention.

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Choices - Aug 7, 2007 4:22 pm (#44 of 45)
I'm with you, Ramb. It would be so out of character for Voldemort to express concern for a "house-elf". Kreacher would be so far beneath Voldemort as to be practically non-existant - definitely disposable. He wouldn't give Kreacher's life or death a second thought.

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Esther Rose - Aug 8, 2007 7:29 am (#45 of 45)
Unless if an at the time devout Death Eater mentioned it.

"Hey, about my House Elf."

My point being, Voldemort has been known to shoot himself in the foot before due to his issues with love.

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Mona Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:26 am

Kip Carter - Jul 19, 2007 3:54 am
Edited Jul 25, 2007 12:26 am
This thread is to discuss Only Chapter Eleven - The Bribe of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows!

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Caius Iulius - Jul 21, 2007 6:37 am (#1 of 35)
Well done Kreacher!

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Madam Pince - Jul 21, 2007 11:39 am (#2 of 35)
I am beginning to have a horrible sinking suspicion that Lupin is the traitor...

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KTO - Jul 21, 2007 1:18 pm (#3 of 35)
Me too about Lupin, but then I tell myself that is too obvious. So far my hat is off to JKR it is better then I expected, I should have trusted her, she has told us a fantastic tale so far.

Off to read more, my husband thinks I am crazy, I am in bed reading, eating cherries and cookies and am in HEAVEN!

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wynnleaf - Jul 21, 2007 8:04 pm (#4 of 35)
Lupin is definitely being his usual weak willed self. (In my opinion.) He'd rather leave his wife and child, just so he won't have to deal with the problems inherent in their lives, even though his leaving won't make those problems (if they arise) any better, but likely worse.

I really liked JKR having Harry get clearly angry over Lupin's behavior here.

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Thom Matheson - Jul 21, 2007 8:12 pm (#5 of 35)
More for me was having Lupin take the slam from Harry. This was not a student teacher conversation. Harry was on equal footing with Lupin and when done there was noting left for him to say. Also finally glad to have the Lupin is a traitor cleared up.

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Finn BV - Jul 21, 2007 8:19 pm (#6 of 35)
My goodness, I was scared that Lupin was the traitor, or that he was under Imperio or it was somebody else in Polyjuice, but then it hit me that this was just his senses, and thank goodness to Harry for clearing him up.

And I was SO happy to see Kreacher change! I actually said "Yay!" to nobody at this point! There is good (after quite a while of depression in this book).

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wynnleaf - Jul 21, 2007 8:20 pm (#7 of 35)
Lupin is definitely being his usual weak willed self. (In my opinion.) He'd rather leave his wife and child, just so he won't have to deal with the problems inherent in their lives, even though his leaving won't make those problems (if they arise) any better, but likely worse.

I really liked JKR having Harry get clearly angry over Lupin's behavior here.

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Thom Matheson - Jul 21, 2007 8:23 pm (#8 of 35)
Me too Wynn. It was a great moment.

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Luna Logic - Jul 21, 2007 10:54 pm (#9 of 35)
There is something definitely strange about Lupin , specially in that chapter. I have my own special suspicions, there... I am collecting clues about it!

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Ann - Jul 22, 2007 8:07 am (#10 of 35)
I can see Lupin's point here, actually, though Harry is quite right. It was Tonks decision to make, and she's made it. He knows very well the effect his rejection had on her the previous year, so why is he doing this? I don't think he can really be a traitor, but he does seem to be fairly stupid about women.

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freshwater - Jul 22, 2007 7:42 pm (#11 of 35)
I was surprised that Lupin would take that kind of attitude --"they're better off without me"-- after marrying and also expecting a baby. But, given his solitary life and experiences of prejudice about being a werewolf, maybe he was just having a panic attack now that he is responsible for the welfare of Tonks and the baby.

Harry's going off on him was harsh, but --because of his own experiences, and his relationship with Lupin--- he was probably the only person who had a right --and the authority-- to say such things to Lupin

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Mediwitch - Jul 22, 2007 7:58 pm (#12 of 35)
I was SO disappointed in Remus, and I kept thinking about wynnleaf's traitor theory.

Harry wanted for questioning about Dumbledore's death. Horrible, but brilliant.

I almost laughed when Harry dropped his wand on Dung. I know it's kind of warped, but I could completely visualize this. Jo's an amazing writer.

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Holly T. - Jul 23, 2007 6:49 am (#13 of 35)
I hope Remus wallowed in guilt for a while after that.

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journeymom - Jul 23, 2007 1:13 pm (#14 of 35)
Lupin is definitely being his usual weak willed self. (In my opinion.) He'd rather leave his wife and child, just so he won't have to deal with the problems inherent in their lives, even though his leaving won't make those problems (if they arise) any better, but likely worse.

I really liked JKR having Harry get clearly angry over Lupin's behavior here.

Agreed, agreed, and amen to that! As a wife and mother I was really angry with Lupin here. Yes, I hope he felt bad for a while and then went home and took care of his wife.

They just got married and she's expecting. Nothing will come of this in the story, but still, I noticed it.

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Jenniffler - Jul 23, 2007 10:04 pm (#15 of 35)
Lupin's just overwhelmed. I know the feeling of having a perfect life thrust upon you when you didn't know how it could possibly go so well. It's a little intimidating, especially when you don't have an example of how your emotions will all work out.

That said, Harry put Lupin in his place. Harry was harsh, but very correct. Lupin's fears are nothing compared to his blessings; he needed to get told!

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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 24, 2007 5:54 am (#16 of 35)
I think that the scene with Lupin was time when Harry truly found Lily within himself because, he did what Lily would have done in his place.

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Ms Hagrid - Jul 24, 2007 6:45 am (#17 of 35)
Jenniffler - I agree that Harry was being very harsh, but very correct.

I don't think that Lupin has ever really been afraid of dying, but at this point he is terrified of actually, fully, living.

He really needed Harry to slap him upside the head and point that out to him!

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M A Grimmett - Jul 24, 2007 6:54 am (#18 of 35)
I agree. Living can be much scarier than being willing to die. For the first time, Lupin has people who are really depending upon him and it really freaks him out.

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NFla Barbara - Jul 24, 2007 3:12 pm (#19 of 35)
I agree with Jenniffler and freshwater...I don't think Lupin is afraid to live or to have people depend on him. I think he is afraid of what he is, and what he may be passing down or inflicting on a child. He was more or less resigned to his own life, but this probably seems very different. I felt for him (although I thought Harry was absolutely right to call him on it).

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legolas returns - Jul 25, 2007 12:09 pm (#20 of 35)
I think Harry was harsh but at the same time fair. Lupin needed to be reminded of his responsibilites.

I wonder if Scrimgeour was feeling a little bit of guilt after his previous days visit? He was apparently tortured before he was killed about where Harry was. Did he believe that Harry was the chosen one after all/did not want to be the cause of further deaths?

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Allison R - Jul 25, 2007 12:42 pm (#21 of 35)
Legolas, I think you're right. Maybe Harry's parting barb of "Perhaps it's time you earned it" to his comment of "You need to learn to show some respect!" found it's mark and stung a bit upon calmer reflection. (DH US Pg,130)

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Nicoline Vance - Jul 27, 2007 1:05 pm (#22 of 35)
Journeymom pointed out that Tonks was expecting and she and Lupin haven't been married very long. Do you suppose Ted Tonks carried a shotgun loaded with silver bullets to the wedding? Wink

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legolas returns - Jul 27, 2007 1:06 pm (#23 of 35)
Whimper

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legolas returns - Jul 31, 2007 12:00 pm (#24 of 35)
This is the first book where I seriously wanted to shake Lupin. He seemed even more flawed than before.

(I am trying to keep on the family friendly side with my next comment)

Tonks was pregnant very soon after getting married. What I cant understand is why Lupin and Tonks did not have a conversation about having a family? If they worked out the problems enough to get married and live safely together then surely this topic of conversation would come up at the same time after all a large proportion of couples go on to have kids. Lupin did very vehemently say at the end of HBP that he was too dangerous to get married/go out with Tonks. I cant believe that Lupin would get married just because someone was showing interest in him and then thought later that he made a big mistake and then further compound the problem by bringing a child into the world.

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haymoni - Jul 31, 2007 3:19 pm (#25 of 35)
I think this type of thing happens all the time, legolas. Sometimes couples don't talk about it at all. Other times, 1 person makes their opinion very clear, but the other person does what they want anyway. At least that's how my brother-in-law says it happened!

I did want to slap him silly though. I think he wanted to be in the thick of things and having a pregnant wife was holding him back. Bravo to Harry for waking him up - Selfish Werewolf!!!!

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Choices - Jul 31, 2007 4:46 pm (#26 of 35)
I didn't see it as being selfish at all. I think Lupin has been beaten down all his life for what he is and I think a lot of that beating has come from himself. He thinks he has ruined Tonks' life, made her an outcast, and endangered his unborn child with the possibility of becoming a werewolf. I believe he loves Tonks and wanted to make her happy and he tried to make himself believe that it would be alright, but after the marriage he began to have second thoughts, and from what he says about Tonks' parents being disgusted by their marriage, I think he feels that everyone is of the same opinion. Sometimes when you have been beaten down for so long, it changes the way you think, it twists your insides and you reach a point where you find it difficult to know what is right, what is real and what is not. Do people really look at you in that way or is it all in your head? Because you hate and despise what you are, do others feel the same way? I think Lupin feels so unworthy of happiness - of Tonks and a child, a family who loves him. You have to be "normal" to have those things, you have to be lovable, and he isn't - in his opinion. I don't think selfishness has anything to do with it - it is just that he feels so undeserving and he fears ruining their lives. He well knows what it is like to have your life ruined.

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haymoni - Jul 31, 2007 4:51 pm (#27 of 35)
Goodness! I missed the part about Tonks' parents being disgusted by their marriage.

Guess I have to read it again.

Alas, earwax!

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Mediwitch - Jul 31, 2007 6:04 pm (#28 of 35)
I interpreted it similarly to Choices. I thought basically that Lupin convinced himself, or Tonks and the Weasleys, etc. convinced him, that he and Tonks could have a relationship, even marriage. But when Tonks got pregnant, all the old fears and insecurities, plus a whole host of new ones (about just being a father, could he pass on lycanthropy, would he hurt the child, would his child be ostracized because of him, etc. etc. etc.), came crashing in on him. I mean, here's a man who thought he couldn't even DATE a woman in June because he was too old, too poor, too dangerous. A few months later, he's married and finds out he's going to be a father. What a whirlwind ride of emotions that must have been.

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Potteraholic - Jul 31, 2007 6:34 pm (#29 of 35)

Mediwitch,

I completely agree with your post about Remus, especially this part: "I mean, here's a man who thought he couldn't even DATE a woman in June because he was too old, too poor, too dangerous. A few months later, he's married and finds out he's going to be a father. What a whirlwind ride of emotions that must have been.

This is the reaction I had to an earlier post someone had written where Remus was pegged as seeming to "be fairly stupid about women." Poor Remus! As a teenager and a young man, how could he have had many chances getting to know women being a werewolf and all?

And on a more serious note, Voldemort was gaining power at the time that Remus's generation was forming romantic attachments. What with keeping his secret and fighting against Voldemort, it's no wonder he had little inclination, time or energy for romance.

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Solitaire - Jul 31, 2007 8:24 pm (#30 of 35)
Choices, Mediwitch, and Potteraholic have all mentioned key points. While I agree that running out on Tonks when she was pregnant was horrible, I felt sorry for Remus. Mediwitch puts it into a perspective that would make sense for him. He had barely gotten used to the idea that he could be happy with Tonks. Getting married took a lot of guts, knowing how her folks felt. When he found she was pregnant, he probably just freaked out!

We have all talked in the past about how Remus was the one Marauder who seemed to have matured past the age of 21--Sirius having been kind of "stunted" at the point where he entered Azkaban, James dying, and Peter defecting to Voldemort. Yet, Potteraholic is correct when he (or she?) says that Remus would, of course, not have had many chances to get to know women--especially in social relationships--being a werewolf and all. Perhaps we shouldn't be so hard on him for being totally clueless!

I figure he at least thought he could be helpful to the kids, even if he was (in his mind) a millstone around his wife's neck. I do not believe he was "seeking an adventure," and I felt bad that Harry accused him of that. It must have been horrible to part that way, not knowing if they would ever have a chance to reconcile as friends.

Solitaire

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Potteraholic - Aug 1, 2007 4:21 am (#31 of 35)
Thanks, Solitaire. And I am a she, a fellow teacher from NYC.

Potteraholic

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legolas returns - Aug 1, 2007 10:16 am (#32 of 35)
I do feel sorry for the fact that Lupin has been rejected all his life. In the books he seems so empathetic and understands how people are feeling/knows what they are feeling. I just dont think he understands how his reactions affect other people as much. Yes he knows that his wife will be an outcast but she doesnt care as long as she is with him. Lupin naturally gets a little bit panicky when he finds out she is pregnant. He pushes her away or at least seperates himself which naturally would cause her anguish. Yes it would stop some of the unpleasantness towards her but people would naturally be against the baby because it was fathered by a wearwolf. This would cause her problems the rest of her life and he would be no further forward. She would be heartbroken because the one she loves would not reciprocate. By going it alone he is potentially causing her more problems than he is solving.

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rambkowalczyk - Aug 3, 2007 10:23 am (#33 of 35)
As I read this chapter about Lupin, I immediately thought of wynnleaf who wondered if Lupin would betray Harry. I suppose leaving your wife and infant son is a betrayal to Harry. I like the idea that Harry is acting like Lily here, telling Remus what is the right thing to do.

Clueless me however was wondering why this chapter was called the Bribe. Was Lupin trying to bribe Harry to get out of his fatherly duties?

It wasn't until the next chapter where it explicitly states that the locket was a bribe Mundungus paid not to be arrested for selling without a license. Bangs head against wall.

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haymoni - Aug 3, 2007 4:00 pm (#34 of 35)
I wondered the same thing - just for an instant - Lupin seemed to be really pushing to stay with Harry, but this was definitely something he had to do with just Ron & Hermione.

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Esther Rose - Aug 6, 2007 10:12 am (#35 of 35)
The bribe was between Umbridge and Mundungus.

As in.

"I won't tell the ministry you have been selling goods with out authorization if you let me have this locket." Then after taking it. "consider yourself lucky!"

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Mona Sun Sep 25, 2011 5:50 am

Kip Carter - Jul 19, 2007 4:09 am
Edited Jul 25, 2007 12:26 am
This thread is to discuss Only Chapter Twelve - Magic is Might of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows!

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Ann - Jul 22, 2007 8:19 am (#1 of 20)
Chapter 12: The Bribe

I love it that Dolores Umbridge takes bribes. She's such a self-righteous, hypocritical little insect! Serves her right that she ends up wearing around a piece of the evil wizard whose existence she denied for so long....

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freshwater - Jul 22, 2007 7:46 pm (#2 of 20)
"wearing a piece of the evil wizard whose exsistence she denied for so long..."

Well put, Ann! As I was racing through the chapter I didn't catch that.

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Betelgeuse Black - Jul 23, 2007 10:10 am (#3 of 20)
I had a thought about the horcrux. Could some of Umbridge's evil come from the horcrux that she wears around her neck? The horcrux certainly hurt Harry and Ron while they were wearing it. It makes me wonder exactly how long she had it.

Now that I think about it, she had the locket from the middle of HBP or so, right? She was evil prior to getting the extra help. I guess that means that Umbridge found her "soul mate" in the locket! (snicker)

Betelgeuse

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Ida-ho-Potato - Jul 23, 2007 10:37 am (#4 of 20)
But did the locket control her like the others. She wore it on the outside of her clothes. I was not touching her skin directly. Where as Ron, Hermione and Harry had touching directly on the skin over there hearts. It was soul to flesh kind of thing.

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Solitaire - Jul 23, 2007 12:45 pm (#5 of 20)
She's such a self-righteous, hypocritical little insect! Um, excuse me ... I believe that should be TOAD, not insect. Other than that ... right on!

I guess that means that Umbridge found her "soul mate" in the locket! (snicker) Nice one, Betelgeuse!

Solitaire

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Mediwitch - Jul 23, 2007 4:54 pm (#6 of 20)
Another LOL moment thanks to Ron: "And what in the name of Merlin's most baggy Y Fronts was that about?" Puck, HH11 & 13 - this was one of those moments I couldn't help laughing out loud! (Sorry!)

They flush into the Ministry? No wonder things are so bad there!

That new MoM statue of the witch and wizard on thrones on top of other people is really creepy. ICK! Jo is so thorough.

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HungarianHorntail11 - Jul 23, 2007 6:06 pm (#7 of 20)
LOL, Mediwitch! I don't think that would have given much away (except that Ron survived to Chap. 12).

They flush into the Ministry? No wonder things are so bad there!
I thought of it as the place had gone down toilet.

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Solitaire - Jul 23, 2007 6:12 pm (#8 of 20)
I just thought it was a comment that the ministry had become a sewer.

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Madam Pince - Jul 24, 2007 12:26 pm (#9 of 20)
I just couldn't stop myself picturing how funny it's going to be when they film that scene for the movie. They simply must twirl around in a circle going down, or else I'm leaving the theater!

Hey! Moaning Myrtle can be a Ministry employee!

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Ida-ho-Potato - Jul 25, 2007 4:45 am (#10 of 20)
Good one Madame Pince!

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Soul Search - Jul 25, 2007 10:19 am (#11 of 20)
I had trouble reading this chapter. I find reading about the Umbridge character disturbing ... SHE IS SO REAL!

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Anna L. Black - Jul 28, 2007 5:49 am (#12 of 20)
"That new MoM statue of the witch and wizard on thrones on top of other people is really creepy. ICK! Jo is so thorough." - Mediwitch

This, and later references to Ministry's activities, reminded me so much of Orwell's 1984. That gave me a chill... Then I went to see the OOTP movie, and there was that poster of Fudge - the movie seemed to foreshadow it, in a way.

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M A Grimmett - Jul 30, 2007 12:45 pm (#13 of 20)
That new statue is really disgusting.

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rambkowalczyk - Aug 3, 2007 10:27 am (#14 of 20)
edited because I posted chap 13 instead of 12.

I felt sorry for the real Cattermole who wanted to be with his wife but instead had to detour to St. Mungo's.

I agree with those who say the Ministery is going down the toilet.

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journeymom - Aug 3, 2007 8:35 pm (#15 of 20)
That statue seems vaguely Nazi-ish. Is there such an object in real life?

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Choices - Aug 12, 2007 2:44 pm (#16 of 20)
Harry looks into a "cracked, dusty mirror". -----Here is another instance of a mirror being cracked - other than the Mirror of Erised, do we ever see one mirror in all of these books that isn't cracked and old? The one mirror that is clear, gives us neither knowledge or truth, the ones that supposedly show reality, are all cracked. Interesting.

"....berfore Hermione's silent Stunning Spell hit her in the chest and she toppled over." A silent spell here, but I don't think there is one instance of wandless magic in this book.

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NFla Barbara - Aug 12, 2007 2:54 pm (#17 of 20)
Any mention of a cracked mirror makes me think of the lines from the Lady of Shalott (Tennyson) that Agatha Christie used in her book, The Mirror Crack'd:

Out flew the web and floated wide- The mirror crack'd from side to side; "The curse is come upon me," cried The Lady of Shalott.

I think the mirror of the poem was a mirror that the Lady looked at instead of looking at the real world, and when she finally looked outside her tower (i.e. looked at reality), the mirror cracked.

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freshwater - Aug 12, 2007 4:59 pm (#18 of 20)
Choices, at least this cracked, old mirror doesn't make wisecracks to him....I sure couldn't face that first thing in the morning!

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valuereflection - Aug 14, 2007 3:14 pm (#19 of 20)
Please explain what is the significance of a cracked mirror. Is there a thread which has discussed this? What other instances of cracked mirrors are in the Harry Potter series, other than Moody's foe-glass and Harry's gift from Sirius which he broke?

...other than the Mirror of Erised, do we ever see one mirror in all of these books that isn't cracked and old? --Choices, Post #16

Choices, the mirror above the basin is whole in Harry's room at the inn, Room 11 at The Leaky Cauldron, in Prisoner of Azkaban chapters 3-4. When I reread those chapters, the furniture in that room seemed to be quite nice, and I couldn't find a mention of that mirror being cracked. Spoiler in next paragraph:

More importantly, Sirius' mirror, the twin to Harry's broken one which Mundungus sold to Aberforth, is whole in Deathly Hallows chapter 28.

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Choices - Aug 14, 2007 5:21 pm (#20 of 20)
Valuereflection, I read the part about the mirror in the room at the Leaky Cauldron and in my book there is no physical description of the mirror except that it is a "mirror over the basin". At one point, Harry looks into the mirror and on a couple of occasions the mirror speaks to Harry, but it does not say whether the mirror is whole or not. I still maintain that "most" of the mirrors in the books are cracked and rather old, possibly including the one in the Leaky Cauldron room occupied by Harry. It doesn't say it is, but it doesn't say it isn't.

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Mona Sun Sep 25, 2011 5:52 am

Chapter Thirteen - The Muggle-born Registration Commission

Kip Carter - Jul 19, 2007 4:20 am
Edited Jul 25, 2007 12:28 am
This thread is to discuss Only Chapter Thirteen - The Muggle-born Registration Commission of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows!

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Madam Pince - Jul 21, 2007 2:39 pm (#1 of 33)
What was Harry thinking pulling the magical eye out of the door???!!! All those precautions they took, and then here he goes leaving a dirty great hole in the door? Arrrgh...

So Harry is UNO -- Undesirable Number One. Ha. "The One."

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MickeyCee3948 - Jul 21, 2007 9:08 pm (#2 of 33)
Harry's reactions inside of the MOM showed how much he still had to grow. He was letting his emotions rule his mind again. Can't beat Tom acting that way.

Mickey

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Ann - Jul 22, 2007 8:16 am (#3 of 33)
Total chaos and bad planning. What on earth were they thinking of, not to work out what they were going to do, once inside the Ministry? And Harry's choosing a random person, without figuring out who he was? Admittedly it turns out to be useful that he's apparently a high-ranking DE, but I think MickeyCee is quite right. This shows how much Harry still needs to mature.

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Finn BV - Jul 22, 2007 10:12 am (#4 of 33)
Umbridge claims here that she's related to "Selwyn", a Death Eater first appearing and mentioned in DH4. Don't you think it's odd that she'd claim this relation? Does she still deny (at this point) that LV was back? Somebody needs to kick some serious sense into that woman. I think Harry should go back and bring Bane and Ronan and Magorian to the Muggle-Born Registration Commission Office?

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MickeyCee3948 - Jul 22, 2007 11:26 am (#5 of 33)
She's lucky Tom never saw the locket or she would have been history.

Mickey

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freshwater - Jul 22, 2007 7:50 pm (#6 of 33)
Can't believe that even Umbridge would be so callous as to remove a dead man's magical eye and use it in a peephole in her door! Errrggghh, that woman! I'm glad that Harry took it.

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Hogwarts Class of 85 - Jul 23, 2007 1:57 am (#7 of 33)
Does the fact the Delores has Moody's eye prove that she is a Death Eater. Who else but a Death Eater would have had access to Moody's corpse - the ministry had not been taken over by that point?

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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 23, 2007 3:43 am (#8 of 33)
I wouldn't say that it proves it conclusively although, I think it could be construed as anecdotal evidence.

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Hogwarts Class of 85 - Jul 23, 2007 4:04 am (#9 of 33)
I am also wondering if there is some question of her parentage. Why else would she use a stolen locket as proof of relation to a pureblood death eater?

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M A Grimmett - Jul 23, 2007 7:08 am (#10 of 33)
I don't think she's a DE; I thinks she's just an ordinary bad person who uses any situation to her benefit. We know she's always been whacko about the Ministry; the regime change has brought her to greater prominance there. I think she obtained the eye second hand and used it as a useful trophy of a defeated enemy--those not working with the Ministry. As for the locket, I think she she just saw something pretty, probably expensive, and unique and abused her power to obtain it and try to get tighter in with the Ministry.

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Nymphadora - Jul 23, 2007 9:09 am (#11 of 33)
Hogwarts Class of 85 - I also kept thinking that we've heard nothing about Umbridge's Blood Status (how HORRIBLE is that concept?)

You might be onto something... Who would suspect someone who disparaged Muggleborns so much? Maybe she started off waging the war in fear that her own ancestry would kill her.

Very interesting indeed!

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journeymom - Jul 23, 2007 1:19 pm (#12 of 33)
I don't think she's a DE, either, but by now, with Voldemort in charge of the Ministry, it doesn't matter, she might as well be. The differentiation was important in OotP, when Sirius said the world isn't divided up into good people and Death Eaters. But now it doesn't matter.

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TomProffitt - Jul 23, 2007 1:24 pm (#13 of 33)
It's said much earlier, and in a different book, (probably POA), that LV had many followers but only his closest supporters were Death Eaters. I don't believe that Umbridge, although clearly a supporter and follower of LV's order, is in that inner sanctum (and thus a Death Eater). She may not even realize (intentionally ignorant) the Minister is under an imperius and believe she is following a legitimate MoM.

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Mediwitch - Jul 23, 2007 4:59 pm (#14 of 33)
Finn, I caught that Selwyn business too. I wonder if she is a DE, despite Sirius's declaration that the world isn't split into good people and DEs. In Ch. 1, a DE was described as a "broad, hunched woman with pointed teeth". Certainly not conclusive, but Umbridge is the only one I can remember described with pointed teeth.

I was so proud of Harry for not succumbing to the dementors even without casting a Patronus! Snape may think he's weak, but he is definitely not.

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Solitaire - Jul 23, 2007 5:15 pm (#15 of 33)
She's lucky Tom never saw the locket or she would have been history. I'd say the fact that she is still alive and wearing the locket is pretty conclusive proof that she is not a DE--at least, not in the inner circle who has direct contact with Voldy--although I've had my doubts in the past. I'm with Mickey on her continued existence, had Voldy seen it.

Can't believe that even Umbridge would be so callous as to remove a dead man's magical eye and use it in a peephole in her door! Um ... which part do you find hard to believe? It seems totally in character with the Pink Toad, if you ask me! And yes, Hogwarts ... I'd say she was definitely of mixed ancestry: part toad! Seriously, I tend to agree with Nymphadora. Her vicious persecution of non-Pure-bloods almost seems like a cover, to deflect questioning of her own ancestry. Perhaps that is why she dropped the Selwyn name--since we know the S on that locket has nothing to do with Selwyn--to prove she was related to a Pure-blood family.

Solitaire

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Luna Logic - Jul 25, 2007 9:22 am (#16 of 33)
Solitaire: Seriously, I tend to agree with Nymphadora. Her vicious persecution of non-Pure-bloods almost seems like a cover, to deflect questioning of her own ancestry. Perhaps that is why she dropped the Selwyn name--since we know the S on that locket has nothing to do with Selwyn--to prove she was related to a Pure-blood family.
I have read that scene like Nymphadora and Solitaire. Umbridge was afraid, and took the opportunity of a locket with the S. initial to try to establish herself as having pure blood ancestors.

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legolas returns - Jul 25, 2007 1:41 pm (#17 of 33)
Umbridge did not seem any worse than she did in Order of the Phoenix. When HRH wore the locket they became grumpy/short tempered/fears were magnified but what did it do to Umbridge? It probably increased her feelings of self importance/happiness in punishing people.

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Solitaire - Jul 25, 2007 6:41 pm (#18 of 33)
How would anyone notice if she became meaner or nastier? She is already horrible. I agree with Legolas that she enjoyed torturing people. We saw ample evidence of it in OotP. I must say, she does not seem to have mellowed or had any epiphany as a result of her little run-in with the Centaurs.

Solitaire

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Allison R - Jul 25, 2007 8:00 pm (#19 of 33)
I agree, Soli-- I don't know if she was any meaner and nastier. I think she just had a position of wider power and authority to use to abuse people.

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Finn BV - Jul 25, 2007 8:00 pm (#20 of 33)
I still don't think, despite every horrible thing she has done, that Umbridge could be a Death Eater. You've got to be really, really evil, and she is certainly cruel, but I don't think she could ever be in the same league with Voldemort -- I doubt he'd accept her anyway.

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Solitaire - Jul 25, 2007 8:08 pm (#21 of 33)
I don't think she is either, Finn, for the reasons I stated in post #15 (mentioned first by Mickey).

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Chemyst - Jul 26, 2007 4:26 am (#22 of 33)
I found legolas returns' observation about the effect of the locket on the wearers interesting. I think it did have what Dolores would consider to be a 'positive effect' on her.

I can't imagine Voldemort wanting Umbridge as a DE. To be a "lord" you need a lot of servants and I can't imagine Dolores ever accepting servant hood the way Bellatrix could. I think Voldemort would find Umbridge annoying. Besides, having someone like Umbridge around who can out-cruel him might make him look bad, in a bad way.

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Ann - Jul 26, 2007 5:00 am (#23 of 33)
I agree that her open wearing of the locket makes it quite clear that Umbridge isn't a DE. I'm less sure that she's using it to hide a less-than-full blood background, although I'd bet she's half-blood rather than full. But I also think that she's a loyal Ministry employee, and there are probably rules against becoming a DE on the books somewhere. She does whatever she can to support her superior, and now that he's going after Muggle-borns, she's completely behind that. I suspect if there's a purge of pure-bloods after the war, she'd be willing to support that, too. As long as it gives her power and allows her to look down on and cause pain to others, she'll be happy. It's her tendency to revel happily in the pain and suffering of other people (and creatures) that I think is her most fundamental characteristic--and a truly disgusting one it is.

Someone said above that she wouldn't be a DE because Voldemort only allowed the elite to become DEs, though, and I'd have to disagree with that. The Carrows are clearly neither intelligent nor magically strong, nor, one suspects, are Crabbe and Goyle (junior).

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Madam Pince - Jul 26, 2007 11:11 pm (#24 of 33)
There's some quote floating around somewhere that says (paraphrased) "We despise most in others that which we recognize most in ourselves."

Seems to fit Umbridge to a tee. She's a bit adamant about protesting against "half-bloods," isn't she? I agree that she wore the locket to falsely present a pure-blood line of Selwyns in her ancestry.

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Oruma - Jul 27, 2007 1:41 am (#25 of 33)
Chemyst:

Imagine: Umbridge is almost horrible enough to play "Bad Cop" with LV as the "Good Cop"! Well, everything is relative...

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legolas returns - Jul 28, 2007 12:02 am (#26 of 33)
Was wondering if after Harry/his patronus left the room she got kissed as there was nothing protecting her?

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Suzan - Jul 28, 2007 5:16 am (#27 of 33)
Ummmm, does anyone else see any parallels between the whole Muggle-born Registration Commission concept and the Nazi persecutions of World War II? Talk about pure evil....

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Anna L. Black - Jul 28, 2007 5:53 am (#28 of 33)
Susan, that was my first impression as well.

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M A Grimmett - Jul 30, 2007 12:46 pm (#29 of 33)
Yeah, substitute Jews for Muggles... *shudder*

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legolas returns - Jul 30, 2007 1:32 pm (#30 of 33)
Whatever it was it was sick.

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M A Grimmett - Jul 31, 2007 5:54 am (#31 of 33)
Totally agree.

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haymoni - Jul 31, 2007 3:22 pm (#32 of 33)
"Me thinks thou dost protest too much."

I never know the exact quote, but I think Delores is fighting too hard to prove herself.

I don't think she would want to be a DE - not enough recognition in it for her.

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rambkowalczyk - Aug 3, 2007 10:50 am (#33 of 33)
I think with the position she has now and the enthusiasm she has in doing her job, if she were offered the opportunity to be a Death Eater (Dark Mark and all) she would take it. Voldemort who knows how to use people would use her well.

I originally thought with the mention of the name Selwyn, that Delores now was in fact a Death Eater. (walks like a duck, quacks like a duck ... I mean hops like a toad, croaks like a toad, has warts like a toad, catches flies like a toad)

Unless she has the Dark Mark, she could say she was under the Imperius Curse. During the "interview" she was with Yaxley whose very presence could have been intimidating although I bet she was showing off for him. Yaxley was probably the one who gave her Moody's eye.

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Mona Sun Sep 25, 2011 5:54 am

Kip Carter - Jul 19, 2007 4:27 am
Edited Jul 25, 2007 12:28 am
This thread is to discuss Only Chapter Fourteen - The Thief of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows!

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freshwater - Jul 22, 2007 7:55 pm (#1 of 14)
A blond, merry-faced thief? Ludo Bagman? Nah, he's not smart enough for this. Gilderoy Lockhart in his younger days? I don't think so......

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Nymphadora - Jul 23, 2007 9:12 am (#2 of 14)
Ah, my dear freshwater. I still remember that we had a mutual taste for specific fanfics, and you prove the connection once more. I banged my head on the wall to remember Lockhart's name because I was so sure the blond thief was him and I wanted to shout it but the name just escaped me for two whole chapters! How irritating that was, but I just wouldn't stand up and open CoS, I had to remember it!

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Marie E. - Jul 27, 2007 9:55 am (#3 of 14)
My first thought was Ludo Bagman, too.

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rambkowalczyk - Aug 3, 2007 10:58 am (#4 of 14)
I'll try not to hurt myself patting myself on the back, but I thought it would be from the picture that Harry saw in Rita's book.

I disagreed with Harry and Hermione's assessment of Kreacher. I think he would have gotten the steak and kidney pie to them without any danger.

Another thing although Yaxley might be able to get into Grimmauld place, he wouldn't be able to tell any other Death Eaters where it was. He doesn't become a secret keeper with Dumbledore's death.

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valuereflection - Aug 3, 2007 1:52 pm (#5 of 14)
Good catch, rambkowalczyk.

By the way, what does "rambkowalczyk" mean?

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Choices - Aug 12, 2007 2:30 pm (#6 of 14)
"...therefore the so-called Muggle-born is likely to have obtained magical powers by theft or force." -----You can steal magic?

"How can I forgive myself, when I knowingly risked passing on my condition to an innocent child?" -----I thought becoming a werewolf involved a bite.

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Muggle Doctor - Aug 15, 2007 7:38 am (#7 of 14)
I thought becoming a werewolf involved a bite.

Evidently this is JKR's way of telling us that mating is another way of passing on lycanthropy. Lupin states that werewolves normally don't mate with non-werewolf wizards/witches, and this is probably why. (It might account for why a certain person is seen kissing a certain other person in the epilogue though!)

"...therefore the so-called Muggle-born is likely to have obtained magical powers by theft or force" - This is rubbish; it's deliberate lies by the bad guys, or possibly lies they have talked themselves into believing. Remember that the DE have a lot in common with the Nazis, and this is just Nazi-like racist drivel used by the DE Government to justify their crackdown (Torture, soul-sucking and murder as policy would have followed).

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haymoni - Aug 17, 2007 5:16 pm (#8 of 14)
Movie Snape said that you could be born a werewolf.

Perhaps Jo OK'd that line.

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Choices - Aug 17, 2007 5:21 pm (#9 of 14)
Haymoni, I don't remember Snape saying that. In what scene of the movie does he say that? I want to watch it again and catch that line. Is it the one where he is teaching Lupin's class?

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haymoni - Aug 17, 2007 5:25 pm (#10 of 14)
Yes - I believe it's when Harry is looking at the cartoon that Draco gave him.

You can hear Snape saying in the background the word werewolf comes from the word were...and there's is a part where he says there are 3 ways one can become a werewolf. One can be born a werewolf....

Edit: Ah...another reason to re-watch POA!

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Choices - Aug 17, 2007 5:30 pm (#11 of 14)
Thanks haymoni - Yes, an excellent excuse to watch it again, too. I will check that out soon. Guess I wasn't paying close enough attention to hear it before.

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valuereflection - Aug 18, 2007 11:32 am (#12 of 14)
Edited Aug 18, 2007 1:25 pm
But the movie is not canon. We do not know if it is possible for lycanthropy to be passed through mating.

Just before Lupin made that statement, the text described him as looking deranged. He said it in the midst of his "My life has problems" wailing fit in chapter 11. Taken in the context of all the other inner demons and insecurities he was battling in those paragraphs, I think his statement was meant to show this is just one more irrational fear which Lupin was allowing to get the better of him. I do not believe either Lupin or Tonks would have have risked mating during one of his werewolf transformations.

I believe the scene in Bill's cottage when Lupin's baby was born, right after Bill's preferred dinner of bloody meat, was meant to show us that Teddy was not a werewolf. (chapter 25) The book described Remus as dazed by happiness. He described Teddy for everyone, "I think he looks like Dora, but she thinks he is like me. Not much hair. It looked black when he was born, but I swear it's turned ginger in the hour since. Probably be blond by the time I get back. Andromeda says Tonks's hair started changing color the day she was born... I'll try and bring some pictures in a few days' time -- they'll all be so glad to know that I've seen you..." I noticed that no one present asked, "Surely Teddy won't be a -- a real -- (werewolf)?" like they asked about Bill. (HBP chapter 29)[/b]

JKR stated in her recent webchat that Teddy was not a werewolf.

Lupin's statement is a half-truth. I suspect the reason why "most of my kind don't breed" is because family life is incompatible with the lifestyle which most werewolves lead, and which Lupin described in chapter 16 of Half-blood Prince.

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Choices - Aug 18, 2007 1:41 pm (#13 of 14)
I did watch POA again today with some HP fanatic friends and we could not understand what Snape was saying beyond the first part - he says there are three ways to become a werewolf and the first thing he lists has to do with Shape Shifters, then we were completely unable to understand anything else he says. Even turning on the subtitles did not help. Whatever he says is definitely not canon as he says nothing about becoming a werewolf in the book, only about recognizing the werewolf.

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haymoni - Aug 18, 2007 6:40 pm (#14 of 14)
Choices - I hear Shape Shifting, being bitten and being born a werewolf.

The movies are definitely not canon, but perhaps they asked Jo about that line.

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Mona Sun Sep 25, 2011 5:57 am

Kip Carter - Jul 19, 2007 4:30 am
Edited Jul 25, 2007 12:28 am
This thread is to discuss Only Chapter Fifteen - The Goblin's Revenge of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows!

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Madam Pince - Jul 21, 2007 2:46 pm (#1 of 29)
So Snape's punishment was to send Ginny, Neville, and Luna into the Forbidden Forest with Hagrid? That sounds like a treat rather than a punishment to me. ***still searching desperately for signs that Snape is on the "good" side...*** It would be something that he could pretend to the DEs that it's a punishment, when in reality he knows he's sending them off to meet to try to bring the centaurs over to the Order, or meet with Grawp, or something else that could be an Order mission?

I'm very very very very disappointed in Ron. Not very Gryffindor-ish at all of him. I'm thinking there is something very fishy in this.

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Thom Matheson - Jul 21, 2007 3:10 pm (#2 of 29)
As Mickey said in another post, Keep reading

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Madam Pince - Jul 21, 2007 3:18 pm (#3 of 29)
Stop it! You sound like Mr. Pince -- he read some spoilers somewhere, and every time I "update" him with the latest I've read, he nods knowingly and says "yes, yes..."

It's maddening.

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Madame Pomfrey - Jul 21, 2007 5:39 pm (#4 of 29)
Madame,I'm in the Snape is evil camp and I am now starting to think I may have to eat crow.

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wynnleaf - Jul 21, 2007 8:43 pm (#5 of 29)
I loved Snape's punishment for the students. Evil Death Eater takes over school and has a free rein. When students get caught working to support the enemy (Harry) all he does is give them a standard detention in the forest, no different from the one McGonagall gave in PS/SS.

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MickeyCee3948 - Jul 21, 2007 9:11 pm (#6 of 29)
Up to this point in the book you have to think that Snape is on the evil side. He gives Tom the time that they are moving Harry. He cuts off George's ear, he allows a Hogwarts teacher to be killed, he hasn't revealed anything to me that says he's on the good side.

Mickey

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Madam Pince - Jul 22, 2007 7:07 am (#7 of 29)
Oh I disagree about the ear. I think that is a way to continue the illusion that he's on the "bad" side, while not doing any really seriously horrible damage.

The death of Burbage is more problematic. But if he's committed to maintaining a "cover" then he could hardly jump up in front of the equivalent of Voldemort's Wizengamot and save her. Tough position. I'm thinking back to how he argued with Dumbledore in the forest and didn't want to do whatever it was they were planning -- if Dumbledore was telling him he would have to maintain his cover, no matter who died (including DD), in order for them to complete their plan for the "greater good" or whatever, it would've been a difficult call. Especially for a Slytherin, whose instinct is to always look after their own skin first.

If Snape's on the "good" side, these things must be making his skin crawl to have to do them.

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Ann - Jul 22, 2007 8:25 am (#8 of 29)
I've been sure all along that Snape is on the good side. (What sort of a lesson would it be for Harry to learn that he's been right about the man all along?) And the "detention" with Hagrid is a suggestion of that. (Would Voldemort really have continued to let Hagrid teach? You mean he's more tolerant than Umbridge? Particularly given their personal history? Perhaps it is just good strategy, since he's trying to recruit giants.)

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Jenniffler - Jul 22, 2007 3:44 pm (#9 of 29)
I keep wondering what McGonnagal is feeling while all this is going on.

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Solitaire - Jul 23, 2007 5:44 pm (#10 of 29)
Yikes, Madam Pince! You don't think cutting off George's ear is seriously horrible? Better than an AK, I agree ... but an ear? Oh, well ... perhaps he figured George and Fred never listen to anyone anyway, so maybe he won't miss it. Or, if he is truly on the good side, maybe he intends to reverse the spell at some later date.

Perhaps the reason Hagrid is allowed to stay on is that he is the only one who can control some of the critters at the school. Or perhaps they use him for jobs too dangerous for other professors to undertake.

Jenniffler, I suspect McGonagall has put her own feelings aside in an effort to do what she can to protect the kids--just like all of the other legitimate professors. Remember Dumbledore's admonition to her back in OotP--the scene with Marietta being questioned--that she needs to be there at Hogwarts? I'm sure she realizes it is even more imperative now than it was when Umbridge was there, and I do not see her backing down at all.

Solitaire

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Madam Pince - Jul 24, 2007 12:41 pm (#11 of 29)
Well, it's certainly not tea-party manners, but if something had to be done to convince somebody that you were on the "bad side," yet you didn't actually want to do any real serious physical harm, an ear would be about your best choice. He can still hear -- he just can't ever wear Spectre-specs again. I like the point that F & G never "listen" anyway, though...

To me, the ear thing is just another hint that Snape is good, but then again, I've always said that so I'm probably susceptible to influence...

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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 24, 2007 12:50 pm (#12 of 29)
Perhaps, this could foreshadow a relationship between Fred and George Weasley that is similar to the close relationship between Theo and Vincent van Gogh.

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Madam Pince - Jul 24, 2007 12:53 pm (#13 of 29)
***Snort!***

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Mediwitch - Jul 24, 2007 4:05 pm (#14 of 29)
Again, I'm impressed that even while Harry said he couldn't conjure a Patronus, he had the will and force of character to get away from the dementors anyway. I know some people agree with Snape that he's a mediocre wizard, but I really think when the chips are down and Harry puts even a little bit of effort in, he's powerful.

So Jo snuck in a WOMBAT answer here - you can't make food appear from thin air.

Ron.

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Allison R - Jul 24, 2007 9:24 pm (#15 of 29)
Mediwitch, that bit of info made me think of the WOMBAT, too. There was also a mention of Voldemort flying over the sea to and that "soon he would be close enough to apparate"-- there was a question asking if you could apparate directly to other countries or something close to that. (Sorry, we're getting off track. I'm sure there's a WOMBAT thread somewhere where we should be discussing this instead!)

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valuereflection - Jul 30, 2007 11:15 am (#16 of 29)
Nathan Zimmerman and Madam Pince, please help me: what was the nature of the relationship between Vincent and Theo Van Gogh, and how is that related to Fred and George Weasley?

I did not know there was a WOMBAT thread. Can someone direct me where?

Thank you.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 30, 2007 3:45 pm (#17 of 29)
Valuereflection, Vincent and Theo van Gogh like Fred and George had a close relationship. Indeed Theo van Gogh was Vincent's most ardent supporter and champion. Many have argued that Theo loved Vincent above all others including his wife, it could be said that Fred and George loved each other that deeply. Additionally several other attributes of the Van Gogh's can be seen in Vincent and Theo van Gogh

Fred like Vincent were elder brothers to George and Theo.

Fred and Vincent broke with family tradition and did not follow the career path that their families expected

Both Fred and Vincent lost their lives at an early age Fred was twenty and Vincent was thirty-six.

George like Vincent lost an ear.

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rambkowalczyk - Aug 5, 2007 7:57 pm (#18 of 29)
I saw Ginny's detention as possible proof that Snape might be good.

But I was really, really surprised that Ron wimped out like this. This was not expected in the least.

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Madame Pomfrey - Aug 10, 2007 5:48 pm (#19 of 29)
I was surprised as well.Apparently Dumbledore was not!

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valuereflection - Aug 11, 2007 1:13 pm (#20 of 29)
Me, too. I was very sad that Ron left his friends.

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freshwater - Aug 11, 2007 10:15 pm (#21 of 29)
I was not terribly surprised. I love the character of Ron, but there have been a lot of hints throughout the series that he has certain weaknesses --like lacking self-confidence, tendency to be too affected by the criticism of others, etc.-- that I thought would be significant in the final crisis. Turns out that Ron's reactions were an excellent example of what some people find most difficult about a crisis: not the tension, action and danger, but the tediousness, the waiting, the small inconveniences that will wear you down like the "pebble in your shoe rather than the mountain you are climbing."

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Choices - Aug 12, 2007 2:56 pm (#22 of 29)
I was so impressed with Hermione's honesty in getting food - she always made sure to leave payment for it.

Hermione tells us that Voldemort had made five Horcruxes before he went into exile and that Dumbledore was sure that Nagini was the sixth.

Food can not be produced out of thin air. Food is the first of Five Principal Exceptions to Gamp's Law of Elemental Transfigurations.

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M A Grimmett - Aug 13, 2007 6:06 am (#23 of 29)
I wonder what the other four exceptions are?

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TomProffitt - Aug 13, 2007 6:12 am (#24 of 29)
I wonder what the other four exceptions are? --- M A Grimmett

I'm sure money/gold would be one, or else Leprechaun gold wouldn't disappear.

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M A Grimmett - Aug 13, 2007 6:23 am (#25 of 29)
True, money and food, and...?

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Jenniffler - Aug 13, 2007 6:28 am (#26 of 29)
...people?

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Elanor - Aug 13, 2007 6:30 am (#27 of 29)
Love? Amortensia "doesn't really create love, of course. It is impossible to manufacture or imitate love." (Slughorn in the HBP, p.177, UK)

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Choices - Aug 13, 2007 6:43 am (#28 of 29)
I would think it would have to be a physical thing to be transfigured - like food, gold, etc.

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Nicoline Vance - Aug 29, 2007 10:18 am (#29 of 29)
I have been listening to Half Blood Prince again on cd. I was surprised to hear Slughorn mention Dirk Cresswell as one of his favorites students. He works for Gringott's I believe, and is the Head of the Goblin Liason Office. As I was reading this chapter, I thought it was odd to bring in the new minor character. He wasn't so new after all!

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Mona Sun Sep 25, 2011 5:59 am

Kip Carter - Jul 19, 2007 4:41 am
Edited Jul 25, 2007 12:30 am
This thread is to discuss Only Chapter Sixteen - Godric's Hollow of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows!

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Madam Pince - Jul 21, 2007 3:58 pm (#1 of 27)
On page 325 of the U.S. version, on the inscription for Kendra and Ariana Dumbledore's headstone, is there a mark or design just below the writing on anyone else's book? There's something on my book, but I can't tell if it's just an ink blot printing error, or if it's supposed to be some sort of design or something.

I'm wondering if it's some sort of clue Dumbledore left behind? It sort of looks like an animal head maybe...

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Madame Pomfrey - Jul 21, 2007 5:35 pm (#2 of 27)
Madame Pince,Mine reads "Where your treasure is,there will your heart be also." There is no picture,Does yours have the quote?

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Lady Nagini - Jul 21, 2007 5:43 pm (#3 of 27)
Yeah, mine doesn't have anything besides the epitaph. I think it's just a printing error. Smile

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Madam Pince - Jul 21, 2007 6:18 pm (#4 of 27)
Yes, mine has the quote. I guess it's just an ink spot! ***puts away magnifying glass...***

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wynnleaf - Jul 21, 2007 10:04 pm (#5 of 27)
I love Phineas Nigellas coming to visit. I couldn't help, but remember that Dumbledore's portrait is right there in the headmaster's office. And the new headmaster is there as well. So Phineas has lots to report to somebody if he wants to. I was a bit surprised Harry and Hermione don't think of it.

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journeymom - Jul 23, 2007 2:40 pm (#6 of 27)
Yeah, no kidding! What's stopping Phineas from telling Snape he's been chatting with the Trio? (Of course, this is how Snape is going to communicate with them; indirectly, through Phineas. Says the ever-hopeful Snape supporter.)

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Veritaserum - Jul 23, 2007 8:59 pm (#7 of 27)
This is my second favorite chapter in the book. Just the fact that Harry finally gets to see his parents graves on Christmas Eve with carols being sung in the background and snow on the ground is just perfect. My eyes welled up with tears when Harry was thinking about his parents.

Also, important to note that our dates are correct! (ie, 1981 being the year Voldemort was defeated, etc)

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gankomon - Jul 24, 2007 1:05 pm (#8 of 27)
I loved the finding of the house and the graffiti on the sign. Somehow the whole experience was so poignant with Harry and Hermione finding the memorial, then James and Lily's graves (loved the wreath) and finally the house where it all happened. This is a really touching chapter. And I also was impressed at how Hermione and Harry left the graveyard, arm in arm. This was a really telling remark on their relationship- the brother and sister that neither had ever had.

Regards,

gankomon

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Mediwitch - Jul 24, 2007 4:25 pm (#9 of 27)
Just a quick comment - Dumbledore gave Ron the Deluminator. When Ron left Harry and Hermione, it was like he took the light from them (metaphorically). Interesting.

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Madam Pince - Jul 24, 2007 4:26 pm (#10 of 27)
"Lights out!" Worrisome...

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Kevin Corbett - Jul 25, 2007 10:06 am (#11 of 27)
When I read the quotes on the headstones, I knew they were from the Bible---I've heard the one on Ariana's a million times at mass:

Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:

but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

for where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Matthew 6:19-21 (the quote from the book is 6:21)[/b]

The quote on the Potter's grave...I knew it was St. Paul, I just couldn't remember which letter. So I whipped out my King James Bible (I'm Catholic personally, but I've feel more at home with the high-tones of the KJV than a contemporary translation), and scoured the headings for something about "resurrection", where I knew it would be (I could've googled it I guess, but this was much more amusing). I found it after about two minutes of looking in 1 Corinthians. You should read the whole passage to get how the quote fits into its meaning:

But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule, and all authority and power.

For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, All things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

1 Corinthians, 15:20-28 (the quote from the book is 15:26)

I've always wondered about Christianity in the Wizarding World. I think one question could sum them all up for me: is there a church in Hogsmeade?

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deletedaccount - Jul 25, 2007 10:30 am (#12 of 27)
Edited Jul 25, 2007 12:37 pm
The Bible says that those who practice sorcery/witchcraft shall not enter the kingdom of Heaven. Thus, I dunno how Christianity could play a role in the wizard world.

There was a church in Godric's Hollow though.

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Kevin Corbett - Jul 25, 2007 11:07 am (#13 of 27)
Really? Can you tell me where? The only thing I can think you can be talking about is Simon in the book of Acts, but that is about using an office bestowed by God for personal profit.

Indeed, the Magi, who are considered by the Church to be saints and the first gentiles to become Christians, and where do you think we get the world "magic" from? Also, I really hope you have something to back up your statement, because I don't appreciate it when people make statements about a faith system based solely on what they think they might have heard or read somewhere but have nothing to back it up with.

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deletedaccount - Jul 25, 2007 11:27 am (#14 of 27)
There are more than one places, but one is in Revelation 21 verse 8 in King James version.

Galations 5:19-21 also has something.

Don't recall all the references. Found the particular one I am still searching for when was looking up something else.

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Kevin Corbett - Jul 25, 2007 11:45 am (#15 of 27)
Revelation 21:8

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

What John calls "sorcerers" (and it's John relating his vision here, not Jesus) are, I believe, not what Wizards are in the HP books. Witches and so-called sorcerers in the Bible are generally presented as practitioners of Dark magic (such as the Witch of Endor summoning Samuel back from the dead). Although there are many Christians who will argue that all talk of magic is from the devil, I do not agree, and I do not believe the presentation of magic in the series is anywhere near enough the Biblical idea of magic for the condemnation to extend to the former. Indeed, after Mass this last Sunday, the priest at my church asked for a show of hands to see who had finished the book, complaining that he had only time for 300 pages. So, despite what the media may make it out to be because it wants to make a good story, I think most Christians, even very pious ones, are not against Harry, and that there is no reason they need to be.

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Steve Newton - Jul 25, 2007 12:48 pm (#16 of 27)
I'm thinking that this line of inquiry should probably stop before a moderator stops it. Religion is out of bounds on the forum.

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Chemyst - Jul 25, 2007 3:24 pm (#17 of 27)
No one has been trying to proselytize, they've stated references much like quoting myths; however, the subject is more fitting for the book banning thread which necessitates a bit more flex in the discussion of personal interpretations and when they should/shouldn't be imposed on others.

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Kevin Corbett - Jul 25, 2007 3:40 pm (#18 of 27)
Ah, I'm not fussed. But I just thought the quotes from the book could use identifying. I'll drop my speculations about the R-word.

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Denise P. - Jul 25, 2007 5:12 pm (#19 of 27)
This is straying way off Chapter 16. Please take it to email if you would like to continue since it is not really appropriate on the Forum. Thanks

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Ann - Jul 26, 2007 5:14 am (#20 of 27)
I think identifying the passages casts quite a bit of illumination on Chapter 16 and the way Rowling views the wizarding world, and I'm grateful to Kevin for giving us the context of the texts on the headstones. That a Biblical passage should be used for a 19th century headstone is not surprising. Godric's Hollow is not an exclusively wizarding community (Hogsmeade is the only one), and such a quotation would be almost indispensable if one wanted a headstone to blend in during that era. But it was far less universal in the early '80s, so I think the fact that the passage from Corinthians was chosen is significant.

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haymoni - Jul 28, 2007 7:49 pm (#21 of 27)
I was glad to find that the house was indeed some sort of "museum" - it had been preserved as it was the night the spell rebounded.

Good Heavens! One of my theories was actually correct!!

(Still miffed that the big blonde Death Eater was not Otto Bagman!)

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totyle - Aug 1, 2007 6:26 pm (#22 of 27)
Something minor but I did'nt quite understand the part in this chapter where there's the monument for the Potters. Why does it only appear when they pass it? Does it have some sort of detection when the person whose name is on the list passes by their statues appear? I've reread but dont quite get that. I'm guessing its not visible to Muggles but it reads as if it's not visible to wizards too unless you pass it?

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Solitaire - Aug 1, 2007 11:03 pm (#23 of 27)
Perhaps the Wizard needs to be close enough to be detected.

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Chemyst - Aug 3, 2007 5:02 am (#24 of 27)
I'm guessing its not visible to Muggles but it reads as if it's not visible to wizards too unless you pass it?
That was my take on it - that only wizards could see it and only if they were close enough to observe it directly.

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rambkowalczyk - Aug 6, 2007 8:22 am (#25 of 27)
One thing I noticed about the biblical inscriptions was Harry's reaction to them.

Harry didn't understand the phrase 'Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.'

Since he knew Dumbledore chose the words, it means at this time Harry does not understand that Albus treasured his family most of all.

Likewise Harry misinterprets "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." thinking it to be a Death Eater idea.

Hermione interprets this a living beyond death an idea at this point Harry doesn't believe with his heart.

At this point Harry feels very alone (in spite of Hermione). His parents are gone. He misses what might have been. Dumbledore is gone. He is angry that Dumbledore didn't tell him everything. Ron and the luminater are gone.

At this point Harry forgets what Dumbledore has told him, that within ourselves our loved ones live on.

JKR has stated in interviews that becoming a Master of Death means that you have come to accept that you will face death. Perhaps destroying death in this story means overcoming your fear of death.

Lily because of her love for Harry overcame her fear of death. Perhaps this chapter was written to show that Harry still feared death.

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Luna Logic - Aug 7, 2007 5:55 am (#26 of 27)
rambkowalczyk: Perhaps this chapter was written to show that Harry still feared death. Yes, I read that chapter like that.
My first note at the end of page 269 (Bloomsbury) was:
Hermione : living after death? But Harry... he has no trust in that idea, no faith yet.

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Orion - Aug 20, 2007 11:29 am (#27 of 27)
Maybe the monument is visible to muggles as an obelisk and only to wizards as statues of the potters. Did you also feel that in the scene on the graveyard Hermione and Harry can be seen, for the first time really, as two adults? The have progressed from childhood through adolescence to maturity. I feel that very strongly when Harry stands in front of his parents' grave and weeps, and Hermione leads him from the graveyard and they go arm in arm. Somehow this feels like grown up behaviour. Later, when Harry talks to Ollivander and Griphook, people react towards Harry as to a grown up person, they take him seriously not because he is the famous Harry Potter but because he acts and talks like somebody who has to be taken seriously. So wizards don't only come of age at seventeen, they are also mature at the age of seventeen. I found that Harry's and Hermione's progress was very beautifully shown through their actions.

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Mona Sun Sep 25, 2011 6:02 am

Kip Carter - Jul 19, 2007 4:45 am
Edited Jul 25, 2007 12:30 am
This thread is to discuss Only Chapter Seventeen - Bathilda's Secret of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows!

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Finn BV - Jul 21, 2007 8:49 pm (#1 of 64)
Anybody else think "Bathilda's Secret" was an odd name for this chapter? It wasn't much of her secret, really? I was expecting a nice trip to the department of backstory with a lovely old lady drinking her tea and letting slip something which is of vital importance to Harry and Hermione, until all of a sudden Harry went all psychic again with Voldemort and fell out the window and broke his wand?

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Lady Nagini - Jul 21, 2007 8:51 pm (#2 of 64)
The wand-breaking got me in the same way that Hedwig's death and the loss of the Firebolt did. These were things that connect Harry to his past, to happier times - and they're slowly being stripped from him, one by one.

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MickeyCee3948 - Jul 21, 2007 9:15 pm (#3 of 64)
I agree at this point I was almost afraid to go on. I was hoping for a more revealing trip to GH. Especially after all of the buildup.

Mickey

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Ann - Jul 22, 2007 1:39 pm (#4 of 64)
I thought it was pretty revealing, actually. The notes on the sign by the house are really encouraging, and Harry seems to take heart from them, from his parents' graves, and from the statue in the square. And there's the picture of the thief from Voldemort's memory.

What puzzled me was that he was so certain that she was a good, safe person. You'd have thought, given his connection with Voldemort, he'd have a better sense of Nagini's presence. Harry's instincts about people tend to the over-cautious, not the over-trusting.

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Doris Crockford - Jul 23, 2007 7:33 am (#5 of 64)
Yeah, I thought it was weird that he trusted her too, especially after she was acting so oddly and was unwilling to say anything (gesturing instead of asking Harry to come upstairs with her alone). I mean, she used to visit him when he was a baby, shouldn't he (or Hermione) have been tipped off when she didn't greet him?

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Mrs Brisbee - Jul 23, 2007 7:39 am (#6 of 64)
Perhaps it was the soulbit in Nagini. Harry had much the same reaction to Tom Riddle's diary. It could have been an enchantment on the diary to make it seem like an old friend, but it also could have been an affinity for the familiar.

I think Voldemort was expecting Harry to show up alone in Godrics Hollow, so Nagini not being able to speak in front of Hermione was an unforeseen complication.

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journeymom - Jul 23, 2007 2:43 pm (#7 of 64)
Ah, I predicted he'd be without this wand by the end of the book.

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HungarianHorntail11 - Jul 23, 2007 2:57 pm (#8 of 64)
Well, now we know what the stink was, eh? That part was bugging me.

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Solitaire - Jul 23, 2007 6:09 pm (#9 of 64)
Lady Nagini, I saw the loss of the wand as far more than a tie to Harry's past, I guess. I saw it as part of his connection to Fawkes and Dumbledore. Like you, though, I felt almost as terrible about the wand as I did about Hedwig. I remembered Harry's feelings about it during the weighing of the wands in GoF:

He was very fond of his wand, and as far as he was concerned its relation to Voldemort's wand was something it couldn't help--rather as he couldn't help being related to Aunt Petunia.

Harry loved his wand, as he had loved Hedwig. They had been faithful companions to him through six difficult and dangerous years. I think he attributed some of his magic that had saved him to the wand's strong connection with Fawkes and Dumbledore. The breaking of his wand probably seems to him like a frightening portent of things to come.

Solitaire

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Gina R Snape - Jul 25, 2007 7:47 pm (#10 of 64)
I loved this chapter. I read it in the wee hours of the morning, and it came off as very confusing and psychedelic. I had to reread it the next day to be sure of what I read. I thought JKR's ability to write unexpected horror was wonderful. The scene with the snake coming out of Bathilda was totally unexpected, chilling and just cool.

However, I was disappointed by the revisiting of the scene with Harry's parents. Somehow I expected something more.

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Madam Pince - Jul 25, 2007 7:58 pm (#11 of 64)
I agree, Gina. I expected more from the return to Godric's Hollow (including *ahem* that Snape had been there that night...) I was pretty disappointed overall. It was totally gross about the snake coming out of Bathilda's neck and realizing finally what the smell was, though.

I thought the statue of the Potters and the "monument signpost" was kind of sappy, actually. Maybe GrandPre's illustration for Chapter 16 helped that opinion -- I thought it looked terrible. I was wondering "Why are they sitting on top of a chimney?"

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Oruma - Jul 27, 2007 1:49 am (#12 of 64)
Whoa. When Nagini pops out of poor Bathilda's neck...that was a scary moment. Did JKR take a scene out from "Alien"? I'm not complaining though.

LV might have unintentionally spared Harry's life: if Nagini had attacked normally, her venom might have killed Harry already (I doubt Dittany could've stopped the poison in Nagini's fangs).

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Marie E. - Jul 27, 2007 10:04 am (#13 of 64)
I thought Nagini had sort of transformed into Bathilda. You mean the snake actually was inside her dead body? **shudder**

I'd reread it but I can't get the book away from Mr. E.

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Anna L. Black - Jul 28, 2007 6:02 am (#14 of 64)
Marie, I think that your initial opinion is correct - it says somewhere later in the book that (in white:) they found Bathilda's body in the house, and it seemed to be there for a few weeks (or months?). Also, Harry felt the smell in the house, not from the fake Bathilda, so I'm guessing this was some kind of transfiguration (and a very creepy one!).

Edit: HH11, but then wouldn't Harry have felt the smell before they entered the house? They were quite close to her before, weren't they? (I don't have the book with me right now, so I couldn't check...)

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HungarianHorntail11 - Jul 28, 2007 6:22 am (#15 of 64)
Anna, I believe the smell "like rotting meat" was Bathilda's corpse that Nagini inhabited.

EDIT: That sounds right, Mediwitch. Anna, I never had a doubt from the moment I read it that it was her corpse. I stated in an earlier post that the "rotting meat" smell part was really bothering me, so I half-expected something with regard to a dead body to rear up somewhere. Not in the form of Nagini popping out, but I was prepared for something gross.

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Mediwitch - Jul 28, 2007 6:40 am (#16 of 64)
Maybe, maybe not, Anna. Not to be too gross, but it depends on how close he really got to her. And don't forget they were outside to start, and that does help a bit.

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Gina R Snape - Jul 28, 2007 4:50 pm (#17 of 64)
So, I'm thinking about Snape's comment to Harry in an earlier book that his father was too arrogant to question his own friends. And I always suspected the Fidelio charm was Snape's idea but that he got upset when they didn't make DD the secret keeper. We now know he suggested they go into hiding. So maybe I was partially right.

Anyway, didn't it seem extraordinarily naive of James Potter to be in hiding in his own home and not have his wand on his person every second? I'd have thought he'd find a way to strap it onto him at night and in the bath, with the constant fear of attack. Was it lack of sense or too much trust in the plan? I would have better liked to see James giving his all to Voldemort in a duel to protect his family.

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Solitaire - Jul 29, 2007 8:03 pm (#18 of 64)
I always thought the smell had to do with Voldemort himself. Remember that Quirrell smelled. The twins teased and said it was garlic in his turban, but Harry smelled it again when he met Quirrell-mort before the Mirror of Erised. We know the Dementors also smell rotten. I just thought ... Dementors, Voldemort ... maybe it's all connected and has to do with death and evil.

Solitaire

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Suzan - Jul 30, 2007 8:13 am (#19 of 64)
Edited Jul 30, 2007 9:52 am
Yes, the title was rather misleading, and I imagine intentionally so. It certainly increased the shock value. I too was hoping to find out who else may have been there, someone who retrieved Voldemort's wand, but I don't think we have an answer to that question yet.

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Solitaire - Jul 31, 2007 5:43 pm (#20 of 64)
Suzan, Jo answers that and many other burning questions in yesterday's webchat transcript at The Leaky Cauldron.

Solitaire

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Catherine - Aug 1, 2007 7:03 am (#21 of 64)
Anyway, didn't it seem extraordinarily naive of James Potter to be in hiding in his own home and not have his wand on his person every second? --Gina

I thought so, too, given the danger they were in. Perhaps he had gotten complacent.

LOL at the image of James in his bath holding onto his wand. Perhaps he needed more of Mad-Eye's "Constant Vigilance!"

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Suzan - Aug 1, 2007 7:13 am (#22 of 64)
Yes, I discovered that information almost as soon as I posted my message. I found several answers and other goodies on that transcript. I guess the answer to who retrieved Voldemort's wand at Godric's Hollow was sort of like the answer to how Harry got the Marauder's map back at the end of Goblet of Fire -- we are just supposed to figure it out for ourselves!

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M A Grimmett - Aug 1, 2007 8:55 am (#23 of 64)
James had enormous faith in his friends; I bet he was unable to think one of them might betray him, his wife, and new son. Remember that Remus said to Harry that James would have considered it the height of dishonor to distrust his friends. Given that absolute faith in his Secret-Keeper (decoyed by Sirius), it's no wonder he didn't have his wand about him. Not that it would have done a bit of good in the end anyway...

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Choices - Aug 1, 2007 9:23 am (#24 of 64)
From reading this chapter, I am still not convinced that the Potter's were hiding out in their own house. It is my belief that when James' parents died, he (an only child) inherited their home. I speculate that he and Lily lived in this house until they found it necessary to go into hiding - at that time Dumbledore offered them his house in Godric's Hollow. Dumbledore's family was gone, Aberforth lived in Hogsmeade and Dumbledore at Hogwarts, so the GH house was empty. It just makes no sense that people would hide in their own home - it's just too obvious and probably the first place that Voldemort would look. I may eat more crow for this belief, but so be it - actually, the flavor is starting to grow on me. LOL

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legolas returns - Aug 1, 2007 2:27 pm (#25 of 64)
In this chapter Harry seems to go further into Voldemorts mind. He has great difficulty in getting out-it was hours after they leave Godrics Hollow. I wonder what he was shouting about because Hermione seemed uncomfortable about telling him? I wonder if he was coming out with strange things after Voldemort got zapped-moaning in agony etc? I was wondering if Hermione thought that the locket had overtaken Harry.

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megfox* - Aug 2, 2007 5:25 am (#26 of 64)
Choices, remember when Dumbledore(?) first describes the Fidelus charm to Harry - (I am paraphrasing, as I obviously don't have the book in front of me, or else I could figure who the heck said it!!) "Voldemort could have his nose pressed up against their sitting room window and wouldn't be able to see them inside" (so not the actual quote, I know). So they could be in their own house. Granted, I do think it wouldn't be as safe as if they went and lived somewhere else, but I also think that it was said that they lived in Godric's Hollow, and not that they were hiding there. It might have just been something overlooked by Jo, and I fully acknowledge that she could have assumed that them hiding there was as good as them living there, but I think that they really did live in GH. I do like your theory about Dumbledore letting them use his house, though. It seems like something he would do.

I also like the fact that, even though everyone from Dumbledore to Hermione has been telling him not to let the Voldemort connection into his mind, he does it anyway. I understand what they wanted him to do and why; I understand why Dumbledore and Snape wanted him to learn Occlumency, and not to try to find out what Voldemort was thinking. However, I think that it made it loads easier for him to do succeed with some of the information that he was able to cull from his trips into Voldemort's actions. I was just thinking about it earlier, and legolas reminded me of this. I need to think about it some more. When the Harry thread is open for spoilers, maybe I'll post more there...

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mona amon - Aug 2, 2007 7:54 am (#27 of 64)
Read this chapter a second time. Somehow I never pictured baby Harry standing up in his cot when voldemort casts his AK. Always pictured him lying down!

Its so sad, the way he's laughing and playing with his doting parents, and the next thing he knows he'll be in aunt Petunia's cold arms.

Voldemort can't stand the sound of babies crying. That's interesting, though I do not know what that really says about him.

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Gina R Snape - Aug 2, 2007 11:24 am (#28 of 64)
I would imagine it brings him back to the orphanage, an unpleasant place for him. I expect also that he finds the sound annoying as many people do when it's not their own child crying or screaming.

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legolas returns - Aug 2, 2007 11:46 am (#29 of 64)
I always thought that a baby crying was meant to make the childs parents feel anxious so that they gave enough care to protect the baby. Other peoples kids crying is quite often annoying.

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mona amon - Aug 2, 2007 6:28 pm (#30 of 64)
That's what I meant. Feeling either concerned or irritated at a baby's crying is such a normal human reaction. I somehow felt such things would not affect Voldemort at all. Its the only 'human' emotion we've seen in him so far.

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Chemyst - Aug 3, 2007 5:12 am (#31 of 64)
Somehow I never pictured baby Harry standing up in his cot when voldemort casts his AK. Always pictured him lying down!
You are right. JKR's website said he did not see the actual AK because he was in his cot. So I read this closely; I think he saw the green light reflecting on the ceiling and then stood up to see where it came from.

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valuereflection - Aug 3, 2007 9:22 am (#32 of 64)
I am intrigued by how the Fidelius Charm was "broken" before Voldemort entered the house where the Potters were. I always assumed that Peter Pettigrew, as secret keeper, had shared the secret with Voldemort, and the Potters had remained hidden to everyone with whom Peter had not shared the secret. But this chapter's description of the events sounded to me like Peter Pettigrew "broke" the charm instead, thus allowing the Potters to be seen by everyone. Voldemort apparated to Godric's Hollow immediately after Peter broke the charm, in order to perform the killings before anyone detected the loss of the Fidelius Charm.

Did anyone else read the passage this way?

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Mediwitch - Aug 3, 2007 9:50 am (#33 of 64)
valuereflection, my take on it is a bit different. I think when Pettigrew told the Secret to LV, LV was able to find the Potters. I don't think anyone else could see the Potters, unless Pettigrew told them directly. Once the Potters were dead, however, there was no longer a "Secret" to be kept, so all could see their dead bodies. JM2K.

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M A Grimmett - Aug 3, 2007 11:14 am (#34 of 64)
Imagine the shock of finding a blasted-out house and dead bodies of neighbors you didn't know you had! Memory Charms all around!

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Solitaire - Aug 3, 2007 11:24 am (#35 of 64)
I think Mediwitch has it. Apparently, the Muggles can't see the ruins of the house or the memorial. I think the only people who could find the house were those who knew where the Potters were and Voldemort, to whom the SK, Peter, divulged the secret.

Think back to 12GP. Snape knew where the house was and could enter, as an Order member, even though he was not the SK and could not divulge the whereabouts. He was very clear on that with Bella in Spinner's End. I think that's why Sirius and Hagrid were able to go to the Potters' house, even though they were not the SK. They could go and enter it ... but they could not betray the location, because neither was the SK.

Now, perhaps, the Charm has been lifted for all Wizards to see the house and memorial ... although I do not believe Muggles can see anything at all to this day.

Solitaire

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valuereflection - Aug 3, 2007 11:54 am (#36 of 64)
Hagrid said in PS/SS chapter 1: "House was almost destroyed, but I got him out all right before the Muggles started swarmin' around." So all the muggles must have been able to see something, because otherwise they would not have been swarming around. Did they see the destroyed house, or the dead bodies? I think they must have at the least been able to see and hear the explosion...

Thank you all in advance for helping me to figure this out by sharing your ideas.

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valuereflection - Aug 3, 2007 1:46 pm (#37 of 64)
I came back to the thread with this thought, but too late to edit...

While reading this chapter, I anticipated that we would finally learn how Dumbledore found out what happened to the Potters so promptly: quickly enough for DD to send Hagrid before muggles started swarming, but not quickly enough for him to prevent the murders. I was disappointed the when the book's narrative of what happened that night stopped right at the moment when I most hoped it would begin!

There were other questions we've wondered about which would have been answered if the narrative had continued the story. I hoped for more backstory which would explain how the wizarding world realized so quickly that Voldemort had been defeated. (They were certain enough of the facts to have celebrations the next day! Was there a body or some other evidence?) I thought he simply disappeared -- why weren't people afraid that he might have gone on a vacation somewhere and could return in a week or so? And what about the missing day??

I hope someone asks Jo to explain these questions that people have wondered about, about the details of how the first wizarding war ended.

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Allison R - Aug 3, 2007 1:50 pm (#38 of 64)
If the Potters were not staying in their own home but in Dumbledore's old home instead (brilliant idea, Choices! It makes perfect sense to me) then perhaps there was a family portrait in the house somewhere (a picture of his mother, perhaps) with a companion portrait sitting on Dumbledore's office desk or something, and the occupant of the portrait could go back and forth between the two portraits. It could have been the occupant of the portrait that alerted Dumbledore to the tragedy in the house and allowed him to send Hagrid on a rescue mission for baby Harry.

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Mediwitch - Aug 3, 2007 4:12 pm (#39 of 64)
valuereflection, you are correct that Hagrid said the Muggles clearly could see the house in the aftermath of the explosion. That's why I suggested that with the Potters' deaths, there was no longer a "Secret" to be kept.

It seems likely that the house and monument both have some kind of anti-Muggle charms on them, similar to the Leaky Cauldron and 12 GP. These may have been placed when the house was "preserved" as a monument, not necessarily while the Potters lived there.

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Solitaire - Aug 5, 2007 9:04 am (#40 of 64)
It is very possible that this issue of Muggles "swarming around" might be like the "unnamed spouse" or "magic late in life" business--forgotten. It is also possible that the Muggles saw an explosion of some sort, but could not see the house itself as what had been damaged. They certainly could not see the monument that was placed in memory of the Potters, and my guess is that Muggles would have cleaned up the rubble as quickly as possible, if they'd seen it at all. JM2K, of course ... but I'm basing my belief on personal experience.

An old historic house burned just a block away from me, several years ago. It was right on the corner of a main intersection, and people in the neighborhood kept whining about cleaning up the mess, because it looked terrible. But the fire had been arson, and until everything was sorted out--which took about 2-3 years--not a thing was touched. It stood as it was--a mess with a chain-link fence around it. The house had personal significance for my family, and driving past it every day was hard. Seeing it leveled and office buildings put in its place was even harder, though.

My point is that when any building is damaged in Muggleland, the ruins tend to be cleaned up quickly and something new put in its place. I have a hard time believing Muggles ever saw exactly what the Wizards saw of the destroyed Potter home.

Solitaire

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rambkowalczyk - Aug 6, 2007 8:55 am (#41 of 64)
I had no clue what was to happen until it did. Guess I am no more cleverer than Harry.

When this chapter is reread after reading the Prince's tale, it is even more creepy because then you realize the significance of everything.

I was somewhat surprised that Voldemort went to Godric's Hollow alone. I thought for sure Peter would be there. In the previous chapters of this book there was the implication that in order to reveal the Fidelius Charm you needed to be near the secret. Why else would the trap for Snape be inside the building? Snape could have told Bellatrix and she could have gone to 12 Grimmauld Place and there were no specific Death Eater traps.

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valuereflection - Aug 6, 2007 2:55 pm (#42 of 64)
rambkowalczyk, Would you please expand/explain "you realize the significance of everything" when you reread this chapter after reading the Prince's tale? I'm rereading now, and I don't understand what you mean.

Is it okay to answer my question here on this thread now that the Forum has been opened to spoilers? Or should it be in the thread for the chapter of The Prince's Tale?

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rambkowalczyk - Aug 7, 2007 6:08 am (#43 of 64)
Edited by megfox* Aug 8, 2007 7:48 am
some examples. As Bathilda, Harry and Hermione enter the house,

Harry became aware of the locket against his skin; the thing inside it that sometimes ticked or beat had woken; he could feel it pulsating through the cold gold. Did it know, could it sense, that the thing that would destroy it was near?

I think what it sensed was the presence of the horcrux in Nagini, though on first read I wasn't sure the Horcrux was in Nagini.

When Harry and Hermione just enter the house, Bathilda goes on ahead. Hermione has doubts. Harry tries to reassure her. Then

"Come! called Bathilda from the next room. Hermione jumped and clutched Harry's arm.

At this point we think Hermione is merely startled by Bathilda's voice, but at the end of the chapter Harry tells Hermione that Bathilda said nothing in her presence because she was speaking parseltongue and Harry didn't notice it at first. So Hermione really jumps because she hears a hissing sound, not the word 'come'.

When "Bathilda" moves closer,

Harry felt the Horcrux beating fast, faster than his own heart.

I really had no idea why the locket was behaving like this when I first read this.

When "Bathilda" closed her eyes,

...several things happened at once: Harry's scar prickled painfully; the Horcrux twitched so that the front of his sweater actually moved; the dark fetid room dissolved momentarily. He felt a leap of joy and spoke in a high, cold voice: Hold him!

When I read this the second time now knowing that there were three horcruxes in the room, I imagined that Harry not only heard Voldemort say 'hold him' but that he also physically said 'hold him', so that Harry is in effect fighting against himself.

Later the snake coils around him, pressing the Horcrux hard into his chest, a circle of ice that throbbed with life, inches from his own frantic heart and his brain was flooding with a cold white light, all thought obliterated, his own breath drowned...

Even though these are 3 bits of soul against Harry's whole, the three Horcruxes together are quite powerful. Voldemort didn't know it but if there was a way to get rid of Harry's soul he had the perfect Horcrux.

to answer another question, Kowalczyk is my last name.

(I edited this to make your italics work properly...Meg)

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valuereflection - Aug 7, 2007 8:08 am (#44 of 64)
Thanks, rambkowalczyk. Your explanation does make it all much clearer!

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Soul Search - Aug 7, 2007 11:40 am (#45 of 64)
Yes, rambkowalczyk, very good analysis. I had not caught on that there were three horcruxes so close at that time.

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Chemyst - Aug 7, 2007 6:22 pm (#46 of 64)
Nice, rambkowalczyk; but then I wonder why Nagini apparently either didn't say anything to Voldemort later -or- was it that he never listened? What is the use of having a parseltongue for a master if he isn't going to listen to you anyway? Voldemort was so clueless!

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Choices - Aug 12, 2007 3:00 pm (#47 of 64)
The Fidelius Charm dies when those under the charm die.

Bathilda was essential an Inferius - a reanimated corpse inhabited by Nagini.

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Holly T. - Aug 16, 2007 7:22 am (#48 of 64)
Harry's wand breaks! But is held together by the phoenix feather core. Which makes me wonder--is it going to be able to be repaired because the core is a phoenix and therefore can be regenerated? If the core was unicorn hair would it be damaged beyond repair? No matter what wand tries to repair it?

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PeskyPixie - Oct 15, 2007 5:14 pm (#49 of 64)
This chapter is Jo at her creative peak. It's incredible!

I have a question that I hope the rest of you can help me with. At which point during the events of that memorable Christmas Eve does Bathilda-Nagini become aware of Hermione's presence? I had assumed that she knows all along, however upon a re-read I've encountered the following line, "Bathilda shuffled past them, pushing Hermione aside as though she had not seen her, and vanished into what seemed to be a sitting room." She seems to notice Hermione much later when she lights the fire for her ... but why not before?

On a separate note the symbol of Naga/Nagini is quite sacred to many people. JKR is lucky that no one from these groups has called a book-banning because their symbol has been cast as the Dark Lord's henchwoman!

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Choices - Oct 16, 2007 9:43 am (#50 of 64)
I always took that to indicate that Bathilda/Nagini is intent on Harry and just more or less ignoring Hermione's presence.

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Madam Pince - Oct 16, 2007 11:28 am (#51 of 64)
I read it that way, too, but I thought it was kind of odd. Seems like Nagini should've been "on the alert" for any potential helper for Harry. Maybe she didn't consider Hermione to be a threat. Bad decision on her part...

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Choices - Oct 16, 2007 4:04 pm (#52 of 64)
I always figured that Nigini is similar to the DE's who follow Voldemort. They are not "paid" to think, just to blindly follow orders.

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PeskyPixie - Oct 17, 2007 9:47 am (#53 of 64)
Hmm, interesting ideas.

I thought Nagini's odd behaviour has to do the fact that she is a serpent impersonating a human. Snakes sense another being's presence via the heat emitted by that living organism. I figured that since Harry and Hermione are standing together until the point when Hermione lights the fire, that Nagini simply does not realize that two beings are present (i.e. she senses life but assumes that it is one big blob of a being). Maybe that's why she uses Parseltongue when Harry and Hermione are still standing together?

I love snakes (my gosh, no wonder the Sorting Hat placed me in Slytherin!), I try to learn more about them whenever I can. I wonder if there's a snake expert on the forum who could evaluate the accuracy of my theory?

And I still stand by my opinion that JKR is extremely fortunate that no one has taken offence to casting Nagini as a villain.

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Choices - Oct 17, 2007 11:07 am (#54 of 64)
I don't think Nagini was impersonating a human.....she was actually inhabiting Bathilda's dead body - thus the rather unpleasant smell around her.

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PeskyPixie - Oct 17, 2007 11:33 am (#55 of 64)
It's the same thing, Choices. While inhabiting Bathilda's body she has to impersonate human mannerisms to the best of her ability. Either way it does not change my theory.

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Choices - Oct 17, 2007 11:43 am (#56 of 64)
Is it? OK, I figured Bathilda was an Inferius and Nagini was simply hiding inside her ready to slither out and attack Harry.

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PeskyPixie - Oct 17, 2007 12:38 pm (#57 of 64)
Personally, I don't regard Bathilda's corpse as an Inferius as it is so very different from the Inferi we encounter in HBP. Also, in Snape's Defence Against the Dark Arts class he shows the result of messing around with an Inferius (it'll mash you into a bloody pulp).

The being at Godric's Hollow is no mindless, programmed zombie. I get the feeling that Bathildagini is essentially a serpent's mind controlling a human's body. She is extremely Dark Magic of LV's creation.

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Madam Pince - Oct 23, 2007 1:35 pm (#58 of 64)
That's an interesting thought, PeskyPixie -- a totally new Dark Magic creature that Voldy just made up. I was having a hard time figuring out exactly what was going on in this chapter with Bathilda and the snake, and your idea is a new possibility. Earlier we saw Voldy flying on his own, which seemed to surprise everyone and it seemed to be some new Dark Magic of his own creation, so perhaps Bathildagini (*snort*) is in that same mold.

Ewwwww... mold.... This whole thing is just soooo yucky...

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PeskyPixie - Oct 23, 2007 1:43 pm (#59 of 64)
I just hope it remains as yucky in the movie. The werewolf in PoA was a joke; it looked like a big rat.

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HungarianHorntail11 - May 23, 2008 3:20 pm (#60 of 64)
I thought of it as more of a "costume" for Nagini. Where is that quote of yours about how someone treats their dead from Chap. 2, Madam Pince?

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journeymom - May 27, 2008 6:54 am (#61 of 64)
I agree that Nagini was literally inside Bathilda's body. Which is really gross. I've always pictured Nagini as bigger than that, massive even. How would she fit inside the body?? But perhaps for the sake of the movie Nagini will come slithering out of Bathilda's body like it comes through the mouth of the skull in the very first scene in Goblet of Fire.

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HungarianHorntail11 - May 27, 2008 4:00 pm (#62 of 64)
Yes, only "rubbery". Eww.

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Madam Pince - May 28, 2008 2:33 am (#63 of 64)
OK, you made me go dig up an old newspaper and look it up, Maria...

Show me the manner in which a nation cares for its dead, and I will measure the tender mercies of its people, their loyalty to high ideals, and their regard for the laws of the land. --William Gladstone, 1809-1898, four-time Prime Minister of Great Britain

(Hey, it's actually a more appropriate quote than I even thought the first time! And he's British! LOL!)

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Solitaire - Jan 31, 2009 10:20 pm (#64 of 64)
And I still stand by my opinion that JKR is extremely fortunate that no one has taken offence to casting Nagini as a villain.

Why would people be offended? Surely this isn't the first time a snake has been cast as a villain in literature. Truthfully, though, I never thought of Nagini as a villain, any more than I thought of the Diary, the Locket, the Diadem, or any of the other Horcruxes as villains. They are simply things (in Nagini's case, a living thing) which have been used as "containers" for the segments of Voldemort's evil soul. They can't help their fates--they didn't volunteer for those jobs. As a living thing, Nagini was, IMO, more like a victim under an Imperius curse--or like Ginny, who was possessed by Voldemort. We do not blame Ginny or other of Voldy's victims, do we? Perhaps others feel as I do.

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Mona Sun Sep 25, 2011 6:04 am

Kip Carter - Jul 19, 2007 4:46 am
Edited Jul 25, 2007 12:31 am
This thread is to discuss Only Chapter Eighteen - The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows!

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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 23, 2007 9:29 pm (#1 of 67)
This chapter is interesting to me because in it Harry is in mind demonstrating Snape like attitudes towards Dumbledore.

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Jenniffler - Jul 23, 2007 9:51 pm (#2 of 67)
Tough chapter for me to read. I believe the story presented will forever be for me the moment when Harry become a man. He has lost his direction, and directionless he begins to discover Dumbledore's real human weakness, a desperate wish to be in control. Grindlewald finally takes the shape of tyrant many readers suspected he was, with Dumbledore as a sympathizer(perhaps more.)

Nurmengaurd sounds awful. I shudder at the sound of the name. Azkaban would be better and it's atrocious.

Importantly, Dumbledore saw the error of his ways and made choices accordingly, but not before it scared him emotionally, perhaps to his very soul. I want to know if the London underground scar on his knee symbolizes this change for him, as it is very muggle-ish.

Well That's about as deep as I get. But when Harry dismisses Hermione at the end of the chapter he teeters on the brink of acting very similar to the way Dumbledore treated him.

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Madam Pince - Jul 24, 2007 12:48 pm (#3 of 67)
Nurmengard sounds like Nuremberg to me; or rather, it puts me in mind of Nuremberg. JKR has admitted that she placed Grindelwald's defeat by DD in 1945 to sort-of correspond with "real world" events at that time in history, so I'm betting this is how she came up with that name for a prison, too.

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 25, 2007 5:51 am (#4 of 67)
The London underground scar, we never did get that story, did we? Methinks if JKR thinks she can just walk away from Harry's world, she's mistaken.

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Solitaire - Jul 25, 2007 6:47 pm (#5 of 67)
Twinkles, I thought surely we were going to find out about that scar in Chapter 35!

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haymoni - Jul 28, 2007 7:52 pm (#6 of 67)
Sometimes a scar is just a scar.

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Allison R - Jul 28, 2007 8:21 pm (#7 of 67)
Didn't Jo once say that there was a very interesting story about it and that "[she was] very proud of that scar"? Or am I thinking of something else?

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freshwater - Jul 29, 2007 9:22 pm (#8 of 67)
It may be just a scar on DD's knee, but I'd still love to hear how he got it! Since magical medicine seems to be able to heal nearly everything --leaving no scar-- DD's complex scar has always been very intriguing to me.

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M A Grimmett - Jul 30, 2007 12:47 pm (#9 of 67)
Maybe she'll detail it in the eventual encyclopedia!

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Suzan - Jul 31, 2007 6:33 am (#10 of 67)
"For the Greater Good" carved above the Nurmengard gate made me think immediately of the German phrase meaning "Work will make you free" that is posted above the main gate to the Auschwitz concentration camp. More World War II/Nazi references. I'm actually glad to see these references. They might encourage younger people to learn more about that awful period of human history - and hopefully avoid repeating those mistakes.

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megfox* - Jul 31, 2007 6:34 am (#11 of 67)
I just hope they can make those connections, because, as Mme Pomfrey's avatar points out, she knows more about Harry Potter than American History!

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rambkowalczyk - Aug 6, 2007 9:09 am (#12 of 67)
For the Greater Good. Even in Dumbledore's letter you can see Albus has a very naive idea of what he intends to accomplish in the name of 'the Greater Good'. It reminds me of Animal Farm's Snowball character who leads the revolution with the most noblest of intentions.

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valuereflection - Aug 9, 2007 12:54 pm (#13 of 67)
Thanks for the insight into Dumbledore's character development, rambkowalczyk. Last year the Royal Society of Literature requested that J. K. Rowling share her top 10 recommended books for teaching English to schoolchildren. Animal Farm was one of her ten choices.

I searched the internet for "the greater good," in order to learn what the phrase has referenced historically. "For the Greater Good of God" is a song by the English band "Iron Maiden" which is congruent with the theme of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows. (I reached this conclusion based on the song's description in "Wikipedia" and its accompanying links -- but I have not heard the music.) Does anyone think that Grendelwald's slogan could be an allusion to this song? Another meaning of the phrase came from the philosophy of utilitarianism, but I don't see how that could relate to Jo's book.

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Choices - Aug 12, 2007 3:10 pm (#14 of 67)
Dumbledore was in his early twenties when he dedeated Grindelwald.

Nurmengard - that's two wizard prisons that we now know about.

When Harry first sees the sword in the pond, it is described as "a great silver cross".

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icthestrals - Aug 13, 2007 4:07 am (#15 of 67)
Choices, I don't think Dumbledore was in his early twenties when he defeated Grindelwald. I thought that too the first time I read that passage from Rita's book.

Dumbledore was born in the 1840s (see the Lexicon's entry on Dumbledore), but he defeated Grindelwald in 1945. If you re-read that passage, I think it means that it took five years before Dumbledore stepped in and did something. In other words, Grindelwald was wreaking havoc from 1940 to 1945.

Just my two knuts.

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Mrs Brisbee - Aug 13, 2007 5:08 am (#16 of 67)
If Aunt Muriel is 107, and she was alive when the events with Ariana took place, then Albus Dumbledore can't have been born in the 1840s. Which is fine with me, because I never cared much for the exaggerated lifespans. I think somewhere around 1880 would be the earliest birthdate for Dumbledore, which puts him and Grinelwald at around 60 at the time of their famous duel. Not that it really matters that much, I suppose.

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Elanor - Aug 13, 2007 5:20 am (#17 of 67)
Auntie Muriel's age could be a pun from Jo's part. There is a very famous French phrase which says: "We're not going to wait 107 years" (meaning, "we're not going to wait forever") and which is very used in daily conversation. The origin of the phrase could be the Notre-Dame de Paris' cathedral, which construction is supposed to have lasted 107 years - which has seemed ages to the people of that time (or so says the tradition).

So Muriel's age could be a way to say that we have waited for hearing her revelations for a long time, or simply to say she's as old as can be.

BTW, this may not be the only reference to Notre-Dame de Paris in the DH: Hugo, Ron and Hermione's son, could be a reference to Victor Hugo also (author of "Notre-dame de Paris", known as "The Hunchback of Notre-Dame" in English I think). (Incidentally, the cathedral is famous for its alchemical sculptures, but that's for another thread! )

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Steve Newton - Aug 13, 2007 6:15 am (#18 of 67)
Having just watched some Jack Benny on YouTube I conclude that it is also possible that Auntie Muriel is being less than candid about her age.

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Choices - Aug 13, 2007 6:41 am (#19 of 67)
Excellent thoughts on Aunt Muriel's age, Elanor. I couldn't reconcile how she could be 107 and a comtemporary of Dumbledore who is supposedly about 160 during HBP. Your ideas make sense.

Icthestrals, I reread that part and you are probably right. I was not thinking of the timeline, I just figured it meant 5 years after they were briefly friends that one summer. Of course, Dumbledore would have needed to be older and more powerful to out-duel Grindelwald.

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Mrs Brisbee - Aug 13, 2007 7:10 am (#20 of 67)
There was a reference to Dumbledore being 160 in HBP? I completely missed it.

I just thought that the "time anchors" Rowling gave us must be accurate, to help us understand the story. The time anchors would be Nearly headless Nick's deathday, the dates on Harry's parents' graves, and Aunt Muriel's age. If Dumbledore was given the age 160 in HBP, though, then Aunt Muriel's age doesn't tally.

Choices, do you remember the name of the 160 year old contemporary?

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Phelim Mcintyre - Aug 13, 2007 7:32 am (#21 of 67)
Aunt Murial says she remembers hearing Batilda Bagshott telling her (Murial's) mum about what had happened when she listened at the door. My guess is that Murial is lying either about her age (I'm younger than I am) or about when she found out about things to make herself seem more important than she is.

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Mrs Brisbee - Aug 13, 2007 7:38 am (#22 of 67)
Since Albus's friend Doge is sitting right there, I doubt she is lying about when she found out about events. That leaves her stated age in question. I thought her stated age of 107 was accurate, but Choices said that there was a reference to one of Albus's contemporaries being 160 in HBP. I don't remember it, but then HBP is the book I'm least likely to remember anything from. Does anyone have a reference besides Muriel's age that pins down Albus Dumbledore's age?

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Choices - Aug 13, 2007 9:13 am (#23 of 67)
No, no, no...sorry to confuse anyone. I was just guessing that Dumbledore's age was about 160 (actually 156) as we were told that he was about 150 years old when the series started. By the sixth book he would have been around 156. I just rounded it off to 160. My point was that if Muriel was 107 as she stated, there would be almost 50 years difference in their ages and she speaks as if she was around when Dumbledore was at Hogwarts. If the ages are correct, she couldn't have been.

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Mrs Brisbee - Aug 13, 2007 9:21 am (#24 of 67)
Okay, thanks, Choices . I thought I had missed something (wouldn't be the first time). I think I'll stick to Muriel being 107, and Dumbledore being around 120 at the time of his death.

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Choices - Aug 13, 2007 9:37 am (#25 of 67)
I have to believe that he was truly 150 years old at the start of the series. The Lexicon lists his birthday as 1840 and death date as 1997. He attended Hogwarts from 1851 to 1859. He became the Transfiguration teacher at Hogwarts in 1940. His sister Ariana was born 1844 and died in the summer of 1858. Aberforth was born in 1843. I just see no reason not to believe that Dumbledore was as old as we have been told he was.

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Mrs Brisbee - Aug 13, 2007 9:52 am (#26 of 67)
Wasn't there an old interview where Rowling said Dumbledore was 150? I think all these dates are being based off that old interview. It's possible there is another age reference to someone in the books that provides confirmation of that. I just can't think of one. Muriel's age contradicts the interview, but I think what is in the book trumps an interview, especially since it is the later canon. So unless we get a second for the 150 age, I'd say basing those dates off Muriel's age instead would be closer to the mark.

Again, not that it matters all that much. I just like normal human lifespans, and it's easier for me to think of the much younger, auburn haired Dumbledore as not already being 100 years old.

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Choices - Aug 13, 2007 10:07 am (#27 of 67)
Mrs. Brisbee - "I just like normal human lifespans"....

Me too, but then I remind myself that these are not "normal" humans.

About the interview, I think you are right that JKR gave us the age of Dumbledore.

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Luna Logic - Aug 13, 2007 1:03 pm (#28 of 67)
Edited by Aug 13, 2007 2:04 pm
Phelim: Aunt Murial says she remembers hearing Bathilda Bagshott telling her (Murial's) mum about what had happened when she listened at the door.
If Bathilda was giving Muriel's mother a memory, a story about an even from her past, Muriel can be 107 when Elphias Doge is 157.

But Bathilda is (was) very very old ! Because, when Albus was student in Hogwarts, she was already a well known historian...
Thus, Bathilda,in the year of her death, was something like... 180 (at the minimum...)
Nagini or not Nagini, she was not very young (I wouldn't dare to say "fresh" )

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Chemyst - Aug 13, 2007 1:06 pm (#29 of 67)
There was a reference to Dumbledore being 160 in HBP? I completely missed it.
Choices, do you remember the name of the 160 year old contemporary?
~ Mrs Brisbee, post 20

I am not Choices, and I don't remember a DD contemporary in HBP either, but OP31 and the first WOMBAT test mentioned Madam Marchbanks who had tested DD during his NEWTS. She was also a friend of Neville's Gran. (Neville's Gran is probably either the same age as McGonnagall - if they knew each other as students, or slightly younger - if she was McGonnagall's student; because Minerva remembered Augusta's scores on her OWLS.) I don't know how much older a person would have to be to be an examiner for NEWTS but I'd guess a minimum of 4 years would be a good rule of thumb; (because at summer camp they required the counselors to be at least 4 years older than the campers - they'd had problems with high school campers not respecting college counselors but found that a 4-year age difference solved that problem.) I don't think that resolves the question though because the Lexicon seems to be basing Griselda Marchbank's age on Dumbledore's age, which makes cross-checking rather pointless.

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Mrs Brisbee - Aug 13, 2007 1:13 pm (#30 of 67)
Auntie Muriel says: "Anyway, how could you expect to know anything about it? It all happened years and years before you were even thought of, my dear, and the truth is that those of us who were alive then never knew what really happened...." --(Ch 8, "The Wedding", DH)

Muriel says she was alive when it happened, so that puts Dumbledore's birth year circa 1880. I think the date in DH should trump the interview from years ago when figuring the dates.

I don't think that solves the question though because the Lexicon seems to be basing Griselda Marchbank's age on Dumbledore's age, which makes cross-checking rather pointless.-- Chemyst

I went and looked at the Lexicon, and a lot of dates are based off the interview 150 years old. Grindelwald's birthdate, for example, is placed around 1840 also solely based on that. Given the new information, I think that's wrong. Aunt Muriel gives us a solid date from which to count.

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Luna Logic - Aug 13, 2007 1:22 pm (#31 of 67)
Edited by Aug 13, 2007 2:26 pm
"those of us who were alive then never knew what really happened...." ... Muriel didn't say: I was alive.... Might she refer to Elphias Doge, grammatically speaking? (I'm trying to save the old-old Dumbledore, here !)
My own memory of Dumbledore age (150)[/b] was the Chocolate Frog ( Famous Wizard cards) card Harry is reading in the first Book... But I have perhaps invented that reference! edited : yes, I created that link : on the Chocolate Frog, there is only the time of the duel with Grindelwald...

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Xenophilius - Aug 13, 2007 1:47 pm (#32 of 67)
This is what JKR had to say about Dumbledore's age.

J.K. Rowling's live interview on Scholastic.com," 16 October 2000

Question: How old is old in the wizarding world, and how old are Professors Dumbledore and McGonagall? J.K. Rowling responds: Dumbledore is a hundred and fifty, and Professor McGonagall is a sprightly seventy. Wizards have a much longer life expectancy than Muggles. (Harry hasn't found out about that yet.)

I don't see that anything Muriel had to say would change this. She could be lying about her age or puffing up how she obtained her "knowledge" of Dumbledore. Given how accurate she is, I wouldn't say she is much of an authority on the subject.

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tandaradei - Aug 18, 2007 1:38 pm (#33 of 67)
Knee scars tend to migrate. I know I've got a pair that show no resemblence to each other. hehe.

If DD's knee scar were made by black magic etc., ala Bill Weasley or holy George, then I'd think the scar wouldn't migrate too much & would be a better "map" of certian London areas.

Well, what better occasion for such a scar than in this woeful story?

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tandaradei - Aug 18, 2007 2:14 pm (#34 of 67)
Woeful chapter is right.

This end to the chapter flummoxes me. Even knowing it all now, I find truth and despair here:

...[cut]...and Harry felt they [Harry and Hermione] were as insignificant as insects beneath that wide sky.
"He loved you," Hermione whispered. "I know he loved you."
Harry dropped his arms.
"I don't know who he loved, Hermione, but it was never me. This isn't love, the mess he's left me in. He shared a damn sight more of what he was really thinking with Gellert Grindelwald than he ever shared with me."...[cut]...
DH, Ch18 p. 362, US hd

Dumbledore did play his people, like a chess strategist pushing pieces here and there for some greater good. Was the situation he put Harry in a sign of love?

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Choices - Aug 18, 2007 2:29 pm (#35 of 67)
At that point, I think Harry was a doubting Thomas. He was in the midst of despair. He was tired, lonely (in spite of Hermione and Ron), he felt abandoned, overwhelmed, used, etc. He couldn't see how everything was going to work out and he was feeling that Dumbledore didn't really care about him. He could not see the big picture - he didn't know that Dumbledore had foreseen every problem and taken care of every detail to ensure Harry's safety. Yes, it was dangerous, but Dumbledore had done everything possible to ensure that Harry came out of this alive and well. At the end, Harry will look back and realize everything Dumbledore did for him to ensure his victory.

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legolas returns - Aug 19, 2007 3:37 am (#36 of 67)
Edited Aug 19, 2007 5:58 am
Harry was set an incredibly difficult task to do. No wonder he felt overwhelmed. By the end of the book I think he knew without doubt that Dumbledore loved him.

Edited-I had so many negatives in that last sentence it did not make sense.

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valuereflection - Aug 19, 2007 4:47 am (#37 of 67)
Do you mean, there is not any question that Dumbledore did love him?

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tandaradei - Aug 19, 2007 8:41 am (#38 of 67)
Yes, sorry.

Could a parent willingly place a child in situations of such magnitude? Where they could be so easily killed anytime? Where all the tasks would be so difficult?

Dumbledore may be the consummate general in a war, directing pawns to their deaths for a purpose; but I do think those "general's" tendencies were in process here often, in how he "planned" Harry's future.

For example, at the end of OoP even Voldemort was voicing amazement that Dumbledore wasn't trying to kill him. Why? Well, the prophecy, yes. But still, that's the way an abstract thinker would enter such a situation, which speaks more to a General's tactics; but not to the parent who loves her children and screams, "NOT MY DAUGHTER, YOU BITCH!"

I think Dumbledore was right in what he did; but also, that he didn't follow love's prompts in the naturally same manner that, say Mrs. Weasley or even Harry would have.

Love is too complicated a subject maybe. (btw, love the edit function)

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freshwater - Aug 19, 2007 9:31 am (#39 of 67)
Love the discussion, and particularly your questions, tandaradei (interesting name....from India?).

post 34: "DD did play his people, like a chess strategist, pushing pieces here and there for some greater good. Was the situation he put Harry in a sign of love?" Yes....and no. The situation DD --and fate-- put Harry in was not a sign of love. But manipulating the situation so that Harry could not obtain the hallows too easily...allowing him the comfort and support of his two best friends....armming Harry with all the information //he thought Harry could handle at the time//....those were signs of love.

post 38: "Could a parent willingly place a child in situations of such magnitude? Where they could be killed so easily anytime? Where all the tasks are so difficult?" One might say every parent does just that by viture of simply birthing their child into real life. We certainly do it everytime we send them off to camp...or college...or military service...or a new job in a different town. We just don't like to recognize those very real risks at these moments of farewell. And the alternative is a suffocating protection that would impede the child's right/ability to live their life...risks, adventures, joys, learning in the 'school of hard knocks' and all.

post 38: "...he didn't follow love's prompts in the naturally same manner that, say Mrs. Weasley or even Harry would have." No...but then, DD's goals and concerns involved more than just one person at a time. There is a time and a place for many different kinds of "following love's prompts"....often the confusion is not so much whether to be loving, as /how/ to be loving....and appearances can be deceiving.

post 38: "Love is too complicated a subject maybe." Definately! **grin** That is why it is studied behind a locked door in the Dept. of Mysteries!

Although I may appear to be disagreeing with you, tandaradei, I think that you and I actually agree on quite a bit. Thanks for asking great questions...I love figuring things out as I write, that I might never have pondered otherwise!

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TomProffitt - Aug 19, 2007 11:10 am (#40 of 67)
While we are on the subject of Dumbledore as General and/or parent I have a desire to put in my own ideas.

First off, a good military leader disseminates his plan so that his subordinates are capable of carrying on without him. Sun Tzu said, "Know the enemy and know yourself; in a hundred battles you will never be in peril." By keeping all of his cards so close to him he denied his subordinates the chance "to know themselves." The plan was in constant peril as DD gave out information a tiny bit at a time, just when he thought it was needed. DD could not divulge the full plan to Snape because there was danger of Snape being discovered as a spy. DD could not divulge the whole plan to Harry for fear that it might prevent Harry from taking the correct actions to save himself and defeat Voldemort. DD needed to find and prepare several subordinates to aide in the leadership should he fall, there were many worthwhile candidates; Bill and Arthur Weasley, Mad-Eye Moody, McGonagall, Remus Lupin, and Kingsley Shacklebolt, to name a few. I think DD screwed up and got lucky here.

I've never been a parent, but it's not hard to realize that there comes a time when you have to let children go out to lead their own lives and make their own decisions. You do what you can to prepare them to make the best decisions they can, but let them go you must. You can still offer them love and comfort when they need it, but you still have to let them live their own lives. DD may have desired that Harry never needed to fight LV, but I am certain that he would never have wanted Harry to be the kind of person who would flee the battle when the world was in need. Dumbledore understood what was necessary for LV to be defeated, preparing Harry to do that does not in anyway suggest an absence of feeling for Harry.

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freshwater - Aug 19, 2007 11:24 am (#41 of 67)
I had a feeling, Tom P., that you and I would be largely in agreement....particularly on the parenting part and DD's feelings for Harry.

As for DD screwing up by not following Sun Tzu's advice...DD was not dealing with officers subordinate to him and capapble of marshalling his troops, but rather he was dealing with children. OK, young adults, but barely adults in the WW and clearly minors in the 'real' world. Of course, as you pointed out, DD could have --and arguable should have-- prepared some adult(s) to assist/support Harry and Co......although it would have changed the story. For me, one of the best parts of DH was that, throughout, Harry demonstrated an increasing sense of self-reliance (aside from letting Hermione take care of all the practical aspects of day-to-day survival...men!**shakes head disparagingly**) and a growing sense of self-confidence in his own instincts. He listens to advice from others, and sometimes takes it, but often sticks to his own sense of what's right or appropriate for the time or the situation. Even better, Harry still reflects upon his choices and decisions, re-evaluating his motivations and reasons, as befits someone with enough wisdom to be humble. While Harry has been growing up for 7 books, this book shows a real culmination of that. Had DD provided more adult assistance/support, this growth progress would undoubtedly have been impeded to some degree...and perhaps this consideration was a part of DD's planning, or apparent lack thereof.

What do you think, Tom? Probably that I'm thinking more like a mom than a military leader! Well, granted. **grin**

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TomProffitt - Aug 19, 2007 11:40 am (#42 of 67)
My issue with Dumbledore was that he had a plan which required him (or his portrait) to be in control of vital information all of the time. What would the outcome have been if Dumbledore had not survived the Curse on the Peverell ring between HBP & OP? That's where I think Dumbledore went wrong. One mistake, almost anywhere, and the plan was nothing. Did he have to give all of the information to Harry? Not necessarily, but he had years to groom subordinates to fill in for him should the need arise and he chose not to do so.

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tandaradei - Aug 19, 2007 12:27 pm (#43 of 67)
These are better answers than I had discovered for myself, and appreciate them. (btw, I explain my username in the Tell About Yourself thread)

Maybe its like sparrows leaving their nests, which I see all the time at our library. These mud sparrows feed their young with impossible patience, then one day disappear. The fledglings finally try to leave, wherein some die in the effort and some live. Happens every year. I'd think any matured sparrow alive would have bitter childhood memories!

It's just that I can so identify with Harry and not DD at this point: I really do see DD as a general deciding things for everybody's "greater good," not lettting free-will have as great a sway; at the same time showing weaknesses greater than Harry's (e.g., ruined hand); and simply not providing Harry any but the barest helps.

It just doesn't appear very nurturing to me. If Harry had died in any one of the MANY times he could have, where would all of those great plans been then? Maybe it was because of the prophecy that Dumbledore knew Harry would survive to the end of his quest; but boy, I couldn't put someone I love through what Harry went through, at least knowingly.

Your responses were helpful. thanx

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TomProffitt - Aug 19, 2007 1:56 pm (#44 of 67)
More of an aside than anything, I personally dislike the "General Analogy" myself because military commanding generals have been heavily dependent on a well informed well organized staff for the last 150 years (or more). War Lord is a better term for a person with the type of control used in the typical "General Analogy."

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Mrs Brisbee - Aug 19, 2007 7:19 pm (#45 of 67)
More of an aside than anything, I personally dislike the "General Analogy" myself because military commanding generals have been heavily dependent on a well informed well organized staff for the last 150 years (or more). War Lord is a better term for a person with the type of control used in the typical "General Analogy."--TomProffitt

Ouch!-- but, yes, you do have a point. A modern general would always have someone ready to step into the leadership position should he die, and the information to run all aspects of his army would have been made available to his successor. Dumbledore certainly isn't a general in that regard.

On the Elder Wand thread, Valuereflection provided this quote from Rowling:

"That sort of puts all of Voldemort's and Dumbledore's grandiose plans in their place, doesn't it? You just can't plan that well, that something can go wrong and it went wrong ? It went wrong because Harry managed to pull this wand out of Draco?s grip."

I took this quote from, "Confused by Potter? Author sets record straight. Exclusive: J.K. Rowling explains the finer points of ?Deathly Hallows,? Interview with Meredith Viera on the NBC Today show July 30, 2007; Article written by Jen Brown.-- valuereflection

Rowling seems to have wanted to make a point about Voldemort's and Dumbledore's schemes, and how it is really impossible to plan for every little contingency, nor should you expect that you can plan for every little contingency.

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freshwater - Aug 19, 2007 10:41 pm (#46 of 67)
I read somewhere that there is a military saying that "No plan survives first contact with the enemy", meaning basically that you can plan all you want, but once you engage the enemy you can count on things going wrong or happening differently, and then you're back to improvising or relying upon training and reacting.

For someone who had a reputation for being too trusting, DD didn't seem able to trust any other wizard with this critical info....clearly a weakness in his management style.

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legolas returns - Aug 20, 2007 11:43 am (#47 of 67)
Harry described Dumbledore in the following manner..

"Dumbledore usually let me find out things for myself. He let me try my strength, take risks..."

What I am saying is that Dumbledore gave Harry directly/indirectly (through the teachings of another character) a few hints/a little help e.g the cloak and how the mirror worked in PS and then left the rest for him to discover. I think that he relied on Harry to do the correct thing with the help of RH. He used the information he was given + his ingenuity + instincts etc to get to the correct solution. This was incredibly risky allowing Harry to do this. He could have died many times. He managed to survive and exceed Dumbledores expectations every time. He went through an incredible amount that a child should not be forced to. Harrys normal childhood/school years were taken away from him. He was forced to grow up more quickly than a normal wizarding child.

I doubt that Dumbledore knew where the Horcruxes were hidden. He showed Harry in the pensieve scenes Voldemorts beginings/motivations/what he was drawn to e.g the things he stole/significance of objects he made Horcruxes. He gave as much background information that he could to Harry. How often do you look at a problem from one perspective and get stuck? A clue or a different point of view can often help solve the puzzle. Harry spent much of the search feeling dissilusioned and quite often hopelessness. The final piece of information would have been to much to take until most of the horcruxes had been destroyed.

With so many ways of extracting information unwillingly from someone torture/veritaserum and legilemency I can see why Dumbledore may have been reluctant to give out information. This reluctance to give out information in some cases backfired. Having one person with all the knowledge in a work place leads to a big gap if they are sick/leave the work. It means that there is nobody to replace the skill set. Thank goodness for a painting!

Dumbledore did seem to be forced by events to give Harry information that he would have rather withheald. Harry realistically could not have information on the Horcruxes at a younger age. His "hot head" would have meant that as soon as he had the information he would have wanted to go on the quest. The trace would have meant that he would have been discovered right away. He could have been told at an earlier age about the prophosey. It would have probably been safe to tell him the part of the prophosey that had been overheard because he already had a burning desire to get rid of Voldemort. If he had known this part then he probably would not been tempted into the department of mysteries and Sirius would not have died. The second more dangerous part of the prophosey could be left till he was older.

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haymoni - Aug 20, 2007 4:52 pm (#48 of 67)
Jo says that Dumbledore really has no peers. Nobody that he can actually relate to.

We now know that he tried that once and it didn't exactly work out well.

Dumbledore is not a good leader - his talent makes people want to follow him, but he is better at teaching than actually motivating and leading.

I could just see him at the Order meetings tapping his fingers together and staring off into space while everyone else was debating what to do.

If Dumbledore knew everything, he would have gone off and found the Horcruxes himself. All he could do was surmise and let Harry connect the dots that he had drawn.

Fortunately, Harry can put 2 & 2 together and get 5 every once in awhile.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 20, 2007 8:49 pm (#49 of 67)
Haymoni, your thoughts on Dumbledore reminded me of analogy. In a manner of speaking Dumbledore's temperament reminds me of Benjamin Franklin, in that he was quite talented but he great difficulty relating to others, and he was often percieved as bit mad but a genius nonetheless.

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Elanor - Aug 20, 2007 11:24 pm (#50 of 67)
Great thoughts everybody!

As I was reading the general/War lord posts, I couldn't help but think of Harry reaching "King's Cross" after the AK to meet a Dumbledore who would be chewing a cigar and say "I love it when a plan comes together".

More seriously, as I see it, the most important quality bound to Dumbledore is trust. Harry often thought DD was trusting too much, particularly Snape, but did he ever truly realize how much Dumbledore was trusting him too?

IMO, DD was the quintessence of a teacher: he knew Harry could do it, and he also knew what would be the tools/skills/people he would need. There is only so much a teacher can do. The "work" has to be done by the student, knowledge lived and made one's own, it can't be given. DD gave Harry all that he could, and felt safe for him to have at a given point, but Harry had to live the "lesson", had to be the actor of his own learning process.

Another detail that strikes me about "DD's lies" is that Ariana's story shaped his whole life. Dumbledore had been given a second chance when he was young. For all his life henceforth he will be willing to give people the same chance - and this will prove to be crucial.

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legolas returns - Aug 21, 2007 8:06 am (#51 of 67)
Very true Elanor. I never really thought about how much trust he put in Harry. I always assumed that he knew Harry well and knew how he would react to certain things. He knew that Harry wanted revenge on Voldemort so I assumed it was a given that he would get rid of him.

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freshwater - Aug 21, 2007 8:59 am (#52 of 67)
Good points about the trust DD put in Harry....and fits well with all of Harry's inner turmoil in DH: being trusted can be flattering and encouraging, but can also be very uncomfortable.

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Soul Search - Aug 21, 2007 12:42 pm (#53 of 67)
"Trust" is certainly a recurring theme throughout Deathly Hallows.

"Trust" is emphasized when Harry is aggravated that Dumbledore didn't trust him with some basic information about himself (Dumbledore,) Godric's Hollow, etc. He concludes Dumbledore didn't trust him much.

But Dumbledore did trust Harry, at least in the sense Dumbledore trusted he knew Harry well enough that Harry would react as he wanted: find and destroy the horcruxes, learn about, but not become too obsessed with, the Hallows, and then go to die at Voldmeort's hand.

Dumbledore may have stretched his trust a bit with the Elder Wand. Harry was surely tempted. When Harry's wand broke I was sure he was going to get the Elder Wand and that's what he needed to defeat Voldemort. Oh, well. It sounded good at the time.

There is also Dumbledore trusting Snape and, even, Snape trusting Harry. Not sure how much Snape trusted Dumbledore, though.

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tandaradei - Aug 22, 2007 11:46 am (#54 of 67)
...said Dumbledore coldly, "If you loved Lily Evans, if you truly loved her, then your way forward is clear...[cut]...

"You know how and why she died. Make sure it was not in vain. Help me protect Lily's son."

Perhaps Snape trusted the logic in those very few words, not anything else.

Excellent essays but I don't know where to go with this. I see now that Hermione, Lupin and the rest were vindicated in their trust of Dumbledore. He certainly could be trusted as a strategist & interpreter; and his declarations of trust seem to pan out where it matters (I'll leave Mundungus out of this). But if I knew him, while trusting that he'd arrange all for the Greater Good; I'd have little reason IMO to trust that he'd have my best interests as a top priority.

It's a strange sensation when you work under an Authority that you trust to do the right thing overall but not necessarily in your neck of the woods. It's like, in the end you know you have to follow orders, but yet that you want to take a shower after having been in that Authority's presence. maybe to get rid of the impersonality of the stratigizineg.

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Soul Search - Aug 22, 2007 2:52 pm (#55 of 67)
I got the sense that we readers had to learn that Dumbledore had some flaws. The perfect, altruistic, Dumbledore could not send Harry to his death, no matter what the "Greater Good." That would have been decidedly out of character for the books 1 - 6 Dumbledore.

So, in Deathly Hallows, Dumbledore had to be tarnished, just a little, so sending Harry to die wouldn't be completely out of character.

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freshwater - Aug 22, 2007 4:13 pm (#56 of 67)
While sending Harry to die may seem cold and uncaring, let's remember a couple of other important points made in the series:

by Sirius: there are things worth fighting for and worth dying for (not an exact quote), and...

by DD: there are a great many things worse than death.

I think that knowing that you might have acted --or caused another to act-- in such a way as to prevent murder, mayhem, enslavement and despair, but did not....that may be one of those things that are worse than death. IMHO, Harry and DD would have agreed on this point, and would have known of the other's point of view.

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tandaradei - Aug 23, 2007 2:12 pm (#57 of 67)
Dumbledore was the right person for the right time. I believe this and Book 7 reinforces that belief. Even though his strategies didn't go perfectly according to plan, he placed all the necessary the pieces in place, in such a way that all that was good came out of it.

DD was a consummate judge of the personalities that mattered -- Snape, HRH, Voldemort.

Book 7 showed him to have had problems in his past, which to me enlightens especially his actions over his last couple years. All this in every sense made Dumbledore more real to me, less of a magical, inaccessible character, and more appreciative of his life and his hopes, horrors and ambitions. As to personableness, his humility to me is the key towards my liking of him, and yes, even more after it all. (Dumbledore did guess rightly, I think, as to what Harry would be thinking of him by this time; and Dumbledore decided to "let things ride" anyway, for the greater good.)

That does not mean, however, that I do not fully feel for Harry's sense of abandonment here, in terms of how he viewed Dumbledore in this extremely poignant chapter. Point of view matters here and I'm seeing out of Harry's eyes. Dumbledore has set him on a mission that proves ever more difficult and sacrificial; and possibly the worst vocalization of these doubts will come later, when Aberforth tells it plain. (Or maybe even from Snape's memories, when it all became clear.)

Perhaps the best realization of Harry's hopless despair here, is how he moves his arms.

I really do think this was all written very well.

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freshwater - Aug 25, 2007 5:45 pm (#58 of 67)
I think, tandaradei, that in this discussion I have sometimes spoken more from my understanding of the whole book, than specifically about this chapter. You are right that, in this chapter, Harry's sense of abandonment, despair, and even of betrayal are huge. Although my confidence in DD never wavered --I, too, loved him even more after learning of his early life and challenges-- seeing Harry struggle with these things was very poignant.

You, too, have a way with words: "a mission that proves ever more difficult and sacrificial".....very well put.

I don't believe I noticed how Harry moves his arms in this chapter **off to re-read**.

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Soul Search - Aug 27, 2007 10:07 am (#59 of 67)
I wondered about the use of "lie" in the chapter title. Dumbledore didn't "lie," since he didn't discuss the situation. The use of "lie" in the title establishes the tone of the chapter and that Harry feels he was "lied" to.

Did Dumbledore "lie," by ommision, to Harry? I don't think so. The only personal remark Dumbledore made that I can recall was his tongue-in-cheek comment about Aberforth, reading, and goats. I don't see any obligation on Dumbledore's part for not giving Harry his complete family history. After all, most of what concerned Harry happened over 130 years ago; ancient history.

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legolas returns - Aug 27, 2007 10:21 am (#60 of 67)
He did omit to tell Harry about the Deathly Hallows because he was wanting to prevent Harry from making the same mistakes that he did. I thought the chapter title was one from Rita Skeeters book.

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tandaradei - Aug 27, 2007 12:23 pm (#61 of 67)
"Maybe I am!" Harry bellowed, and he flung his arms over his head, hardly knowing whether..."
...[cut]... His voice cracked ...[cut]...
...[cut]...
"He loved you," Hermione whispered. "I know he loved you."
Harry dropped his arms. ...[cut]...
Bk7Ch18, p.362US

To me the question is, what is a British hero of typical British reserve here doing, flinging his arms over his head in much the same manner we would expect of, say, Charlie Brown from a Charles Schultz cartoon?

IMO the gesture is "pointless" in a normal understanding of mature gestures; it appears too childish and freely emotive; and conveys a sense of utter and even infantile helplessness, and also an apparent lack of concern as to whether one might be embarrassed from doing it.

Here to me it is a perfect expression of an emotional nadir, of a hitting bottom with no aspirations or hopes left, of an utter abandonment to despair and lack of concern for who sees it.

The extended period of hand's up despair, is only "broken" in this narrative when Hermione states baldly that she just plain believes Harry's lack of faith in Dumbledore's love is wrong. Harry's hands come down, maybe as a sign that some kind of impasse has been reached: Harry doesn't believe but Hermione believes. Perhaps the loss of Harry's personal wand in some way parallels Harry's loss of believe in Dumbledore's love for him. I'm thinking, as Harry gains wands from now on, and develops greater facility over them, that in a similar manner his belief in Dumbledore's love for him also improves.

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legolas returns - Aug 27, 2007 12:45 pm (#62 of 67)
Reserved-The habit of not showing your feelings.

I would say that Harry is one of the most emotional characters in the books. His feelings always come over plainly. He would have swallowed what Umbridge was saying to him if he was reserved. He would have sat quietly and listend to Dumbledore from the begining rather than ranting at him and destroying his stuff in OOP. He would not have had the confrontation with Lupin in DH. He is accussed of having his emotions on his sleve by Snape.

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NFla Barbara - Aug 27, 2007 4:11 pm (#63 of 67)
I agree -- remember the scene in DD's office at the end of OoP (in the book, not the movie!) where Harry was throwing things around? No stiff upper lip there.

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tandaradei - Aug 27, 2007 4:38 pm (#64 of 67)
hehe, maybe I did go too far with the reserve thing.

Agreed, Harry is very demonstrative. Nonetheless, what else would such actions as his be demonstrating, if not what I said?

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freshwater - Aug 27, 2007 9:51 pm (#65 of 67)
legolas returns, I don't disagree with you....but the level of emotion in Harry's responses varies with the event. You are right, he is very expressive towards Umbridge...of course, he is incensed that she is lying about him, about what happened to Cedric, about the return of LV. Lying and deliberate dissimulation tends to 'get my Irish up', too (no offense to anyone, I am actually part Irish).

And NFla B., Harry was emotionally out of control in DD's office after Sirius' death, to the extent of yelling,swearing, demanding, and throwing things.

But what about the many long stretches of time in the various books where he withstood the anger/rejection/suspicion of his peers due to misinformation by the Daily Prophet or Rita Skeeter or Malfoy? He was pretty stoic through those times of intensely negative peer pressure.

tandaradei, thanks for posting that bit(post 61). At first I saw --in my mind's eye- Harry throwing his hands up [into the air] above his head in a gesture of frustration and helplessness, upset beyond any sort of self-consciousness about how he might appear to others. But after reading "Harry dropped his arms"....well, I can't picture him holding his hands in the air above his head all that time...so then my mental picture shifted to one where Harry threw his hands up /onto the top of his head/ in a defensive or shielding manner, as if to hide from, or resist the impact of, the dreadful "fact" of DD's errors, mistakes and 'lies'. Is this what you 'saw' here, or something else?

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legolas returns - Aug 27, 2007 10:42 pm (#66 of 67)
I did see the same thing when he covered his head with his hands. Kind of protecting himself from the dispair/dissilusionment etc.

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tandaradei - Aug 28, 2007 9:49 am (#67 of 67)
hmmm. Yes freshwater, I latched onto this bit of the narrative intuitively, thinking it pivotal; I did not picture Harry putting his hands on his head but straight up into the air, sort of like how Charlie Brown does when he's at his wit's end in a Charlie Brown Cartoon. I think Jo left out the "on his head" imagery on purpose.

This actual image for a human is bizaare. Just throwing one's arms into the air for an extended amount of time, while in an emotional conversation, just sends signals all over the place that one is at one's wit's end. Jo has IMO captured in that single image the shock, despair, and hopelessness that Harry must have felt, having just experienced an intimate interlude with an impossibly powerful Voldermort, and the loss of his wand (accented by the loss of Ron); IMO this antic displays visually (hard to catch in narragive) one on the verge of a complete breakdown.

To me this is pivotal. Hermione's declaration of hope IMO is all that brings Harry's hands down at that moment, and the upward climb to ultimate maturity can begin.

Harry let go of the strength in his arms and let Hermione's "strength" hold him up, IMO. To me this is key. Harry at least provisionally "accepted" Hermione's declaration of hope, if only so he could quiet down. He accepted help, when at wit's end. He will "accept" a few more wands later, as they come his way. He will accept Ron's help -- notice that he will now insist that Ron be the one to kill the horcrux. Harry is maturing. Eventually, he will be able to accept Hermione's insistence that they go after the horcruxes alone -- even his obsessions are beginning to waver in maturity.

To me, the image is just very powerful.

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Mona Sun Sep 25, 2011 6:06 am

Kip Carter - Jul 19, 2007 4:51 am
Edited Jul 25, 2007 12:32 am
This thread is to discuss Only Chapter Nineteen - The Silver Doe of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows!

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Madam Pince - Jul 21, 2007 7:40 pm (#1 of 44)
OK, so who else here is thinking that Lily's patronus used to be a silver doe, and that now it's Snape's patronus? And that's why JKR refused to tell us what Snape's patronus was? (I remembered having this epiphany not too long ago, and I looked it up on the Snape thread -- wynnleaf started the thought and I jumped all over it.)

So now I'm thinking Snape gave/led Harry to Gryffindor's sword, and sometime later Harry is going to see a memory of Lily and her doe patronus, and the lightbulb will go on over his head... I do not believe those goblins were correct when they thought Snape was ignorant of the fact that the sword put into Gringotts was a fake. Snape may be a lot of things but he's not dumb.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 21, 2007 7:53 pm (#2 of 44)
Madam P., your point raises an interesting question. If Snape did guide Harry to the Sword of Gryffindor is Severus the Death Eater who left Voldemort forever, with Karakoff being the coward who chose to flee rather than fight, and making the faithful Death Eater, mentioned in GoF Crouch Jr.

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Finn BV - Jul 21, 2007 8:50 pm (#3 of 44)
Madam P., you may be on to something? ! Keep reading!

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MickeyCee3948 - Jul 21, 2007 9:20 pm (#4 of 44)
By George, I think you have it Nathan. But if Tom thought that Snape had left him forever then why is he still breathing. The doe patronus is the first sign that Snape may not be totally evil. Looking for a good crow recipe.

Mickey

P.S. Maybe I better wait until I finish the book.

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Anna L. Black - Jul 21, 2007 9:55 pm (#5 of 44)
When I went to bed yesterday, I was lying in bed and thinking about everything I read.... Now, I was sure there's a connection to Lily from the moment it said there's a doe patronus. (Funnily, just the day before I was humming "Doe, a deer, a female dear..." from The Sounds Of Music. I must be a seer.) So I'm thinking about it, and then I had this 'revelation' - of course, it's Snape! But I haven't read enough yet, so I'll take Finn's advice and go on

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Ann - Jul 22, 2007 2:11 pm (#6 of 44)
The whole silver doe scene made me think of Harry's dream in PoA. Just before Sirius breaks into the dorm and Ron wakes to find him standing over him with a knife (screaming and waking Harry up), Harry has been dreaming about "walking through a forest, his Firebolt over his shoulder, following something silvery white. It was winding its way through the trees ahead, and he could only catch glimpses of it between the leaves. Anxious to catch up with it, he sped up, but as he moved faster, so did his quarry. Harry broke into a run, and ahead he heard hooves gathering speed. Now he was running flat out, and ahead he could hear gallloping. Then he turned a corner into a clearing and --

That's when Ron wakes him up. I can't find any associations with Lily or Snape (or anyone else, really). It happens just after Harry casts his own corporeal patronus for the first time (at Draco and friends, masquerading as dementors), and so I thought, after finishing the book, that it was his own patronus he was following. In DH he clearly does not start with his Firebolt over his shoulder, but otherwise the experience sounds quite close. (My husband is reading the book at the moment and won't let me check how close.)

Update: Okay. I managed to wrestle it away from him and re-read. There are a lot of other differences: It's silent, and he sees it clearly before it runs into the forest. But the feeling of safety is interesting. I didn't notice that on the first reading.

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Jenniffler - Jul 22, 2007 3:50 pm (#7 of 44)
Ann, you're right I saw the parallel to the dream, too. Ron's intervention was breathtaking and really tense.

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Nymphadora - Jul 23, 2007 9:16 am (#8 of 44)
I just wanted to say, Ron's Torment by the Horcrux was one of the most awesome and adult scenes in the book. I thought he would snap under the pressure, but he believed in Harry and had faced those demons a while ago and succeeded... Go, Ron.

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Finn BV - Jul 23, 2007 10:39 am (#9 of 44)
Ron wakes him up in PA, but this time he saves Harry. Interesting?

I hadn't seen the connection to the dream before, but it's a very intriguing relationship.

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Solitaire - Jul 23, 2007 6:24 pm (#10 of 44)
Edited Jul 23, 2007 8:13 pm
Thanks, Ann ... I knew that scene seemed familiar, but I was too busy reading to go back and find it just then.

I thought the locket was an interesting, evil "twist" on the Mirror of Erised. Remember all the great things Ron saw when he looked into it--positive "responses," if you will, to the fears and insecurities he harbored. The locket Horcrux, on the other hand, tormented him by showing him the fulfillment of all of his greatest fears and insecurities in the worst possible ways. Another great parallel, I think ...

Edit: Didn't you just love Hermione's sarcasm towards Ron when he returned? Here Ron is telling her about what happened to him with the Snatchers, at which point she says in her incredibly sarcastic voice, "Gosh, what a gripping story ... You must have been simply terrified." She then proceeds to tell him about what happened to her and Harry at GH, finishing up with this little gem: "Imagine losing fingernails, Harry! That really puts our sufferings into perspective, doesn't it?" Ouch!

Solitaire

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journeymom - Jul 23, 2007 9:53 pm (#11 of 44)
Neat comparison to the Mirror of Erised, Soli.

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Neville Longbottom - Jul 26, 2007 8:22 am (#12 of 44)
Just wanted to say, that even though I knew why it wasn't possible, I'm a bit disappointed, that the Silver doe didn't speak. That would have been hilarious. ;-)

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vball man - Jul 26, 2007 12:41 pm (#13 of 44)
I expected better of the locket's last act. I know that torturing Ron was an evil thing to do, and that does fit with Voldie's soul.

But I expected that the locket would try for more - for survival. I thought it would tempt Ron. That's what C.S.Lewis would have done. There would have been a conversation in which the locket nearly convinces Ron that Harry is not Ron's friend and that Ron should kill Harry instead of the Locket.

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Catherine - Jul 27, 2007 5:29 pm (#14 of 44)
You know, Vball man, I think the locket WAS trying to possess Ron. It certainly had fed off the Trio enough to know how to manipulate--could this be a parallel to Ginny's experience with the Diary?

Ron's eyes seemed a bit scarlet before he finally smashed the locket--echoing the glimpse of Riddle's eyes that Harry sees when the locket first opened.

I think the locket was working on Ron's mind. Who knows what could have happened if Ron hadn't been strong enough to resist?

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Solitaire - Jul 27, 2007 7:35 pm (#15 of 44)
There would have been a conversation in which the locket nearly convinces Ron that Harry is not Ron's friend and that Ron should kill Harry instead of the Locket.

Isn't that essentially what happened? I mean it wasn't a conversation, exactly ... but I was fearful for a fleeting moment that Ron might turn on Harry.

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Mediwitch - Jul 27, 2007 7:45 pm (#16 of 44)
The connections to Arthurian legends are very strong in this chapter, aren't they?

Harry saved Ron's life in HBP, now Ron has saved Harry's. I loved Ron holding Gryffindor's sword - he is another true Gryffindor!

What is it with Ron Splinching? He lost part of his arm and two fingernails on his right hand. I'll have to pay attention to see if he continues to Splinch himself after this.

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Oruma - Jul 30, 2007 11:36 am (#17 of 44)
Mediwitch:

Perhaps he just doesn't have enough deliberation and determination, that's why *wink* but then again, there are loads of other people in the Wizarding population who can't Apparite, so Ron's hardly alone (or else, Hermione can probably take him anywhere on Side-Along-Apparition, so he'll be alright!)

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Gina R Snape - Jul 30, 2007 7:37 pm (#18 of 44)
I've been thinking about this chapter and how Ron returns to Harry and Hermione happens to have a kind of parallel with Harry and the doe.

I found it interesting that JKR referred to the object as a deluminator in book 7 but a "Put-Outer" in previous books. For Ron, the light was extinguished inside him by the locket, and so had to be restored by the deluminator. For others, light was already inside them so they only needed it to put out lights.

So it is with Snape, that he is a dark and brooding figure whose connection with Harry and with his own redemptive process must come from the most light of light magic--a patronus. Snape only truly makes a final leap when he is no longer just listening to DD. And both Ron and Harry make a great leap forward when they learn to trust something light outside themselves. It's interesting and I'm only just thinking about it now.

Redemption is clearly a major theme in this book. But it starts to come "to light" in this chapter, making it a very crucial one.

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Potteraholic - Jul 31, 2007 6:17 pm (#19 of 44)
The way the locket affected Ron, more so than it did Harry or Hermione, reminded me of how the ring affected Frodo the closer he got to Mount Doom. (I know this chapter described Ron's destruction of the locket and not the way it affected him, which was mentioned in an earlier chapter.)

But the locket trying to strangle Harry while he attempted to get the sword out of the lake reminded me of 'the one ring'. The locket had a will of its own and could work against the wearer, much like Sauron's ring. Just an immediate reaction I had to the way the locket turned against Harry and Ron.

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Catherine - Aug 1, 2007 6:55 am (#20 of 44)
So it is with Snape, that he is a dark and brooding figure whose connection with Harry and with his own redemptive process must come from the most light of light magic--a patronus. Snape only truly makes a final leap when he is no longer just listening to DD. And both Ron and Harry make a great leap forward when they learn to trust something light outside themselves. It's interesting and I'm only just thinking about it now. --Gina

Ah, very true! We have characters who have learned to "see the light," and become enlightened. Harry has to learn to see the light within Snape.

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journeymom - Aug 1, 2007 8:51 am (#21 of 44)
Potteraholic- I couldn't avoid the LotR comparisons, either. I was reminded of the Mouth of Sauron taunting Aragorn with Frodo's mithril vest, trying to get him to despair and give up. Same with the palantirs. They warped Saruman's mind, and also Denethor.

One more parallel to LotR, Hermione is described as 'beautiful' and 'terrible', like Galadriel.

Arthurian legend- Guinevere is unfaithful to Arthur with Lancelot. One of Ron's (Weasley is our King!) worst fears was that Hermione would choose Harry over him, that he just couldn't live up to Harry's heroism. Harry's story diverges from the Arthurian legend, in that the King's woman is faithful to the King.

I thought that scene was just too cool, and I look forward to seeing it in the movie.

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M A Grimmett - Aug 1, 2007 9:01 am (#22 of 44)
It's all about choices, and Snape's show just how agonizing they can be.

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megfox* - Aug 2, 2007 5:43 am (#23 of 44)
"...the locket trying to strangle Harry while he attempted to get the sword out of the lake reminded me of 'the one ring'. The locket had a will of its own and could work against the wearer,..."

Potteraholic, we also had this example with the diary of an object that is a Horcrux having a mind of its own, and if you can't see where an object keeps its mind... The diary was able to do things on its own in order to manipulate people (Ginny and Harry). Who knows, maybe even Lucius was manipulated by the diary to place it in Ginny's cauldron?

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Solitaire - Aug 2, 2007 8:26 am (#24 of 44)
The locket really did a number on Ron, didn't it? It certainly seemed to know how to taunt him, didn't it? It seemed to sense his deepest fears and insecurities, much as the MIrror of Erised sensed his deepest desires.

Solitaire

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Potteraholic - Aug 2, 2007 9:55 am (#25 of 44)
It's the way the locket tortures Ron's psyche that sets up the conversation that he and Harry can finally have about Hermione and how each one feels about her. Though Harry states things more plainly than Ron does, if memory serves (no book in front of me to check). Typical.

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Gina R Snape - Aug 2, 2007 11:26 am (#26 of 44)
I think it was also a way for JKR to play with the shippers. But certainly, it showed the power/ability Voldemort had, to mess with people's minds.

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legolas returns - Aug 2, 2007 11:48 am (#27 of 44)
This was only a small part of his soul. How bad must the whole article have been prior to creating horcruxs?

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Gina R Snape - Aug 2, 2007 2:52 pm (#28 of 44)
Exactly, legolas. What we see the most in this book is Voldemort's ability to breed fear, mistrust and a general ability to mess with people's minds. Imagine, he had this ability before he even made it to Hogwarts. Though, I do wonder if that sort of thing is diluted with split parts of a soul or if each part maintains 'equal strength' as it were.

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rambkowalczyk - Aug 7, 2007 6:25 am (#29 of 44)
This was one of my favorite chapters. I suspected that the Patronus belonged to Snape. Ron's return was awesome. His battle against Voldemort hero worthy. and the fight with Hermione priceless! Yes his broken fingernail puts it all into perspective doesn't it.

Kudos to the one who remembered Harry's dream from book 3. In the Snape thread wynnleaf references an article by Rexluscus that says that the Doe represents the ideal goodness of Lily and that the person chasing her was not just Harry but Snape as well. When the doe disappears it is a challenge to expand your idea what good means.

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NFla Barbara - Aug 7, 2007 1:53 pm (#30 of 44)
Well, unlike some people, I did not really like the part about the locket (although the rest of the chapter was great). I thought it was a bit too, I don't know, bodice-ripping. And I am getting tired of Hermione (even the "Riddle" one) shrieking, cackling, being shrill, etc....But I did think it was interesting to see how the locket tried to play with Ron's mind, and it gave me a little insight into how LV would have "turned" Peter Pettigrew, who must have been even more insecure in his friendships than Ron was, and did not have Ron's innate goodness or courage.

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rambkowalczyk - Aug 7, 2007 2:49 pm (#31 of 44)
bodice ripping? Are you referring to the fact that Harry felt he had to undress before plunging into the pond?

Yes Hermione does get hysterical at times and I suppose if I were Harry it would get on my nerves too.

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NFla Barbara - Aug 7, 2007 3:00 pm (#32 of 44)
No, I meant the part about the "Riddle Harry and Hermione" actually rising up out of the locket. I thought the voice alone was much more sinister; the little figures embracing seemed almost laughable.

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megfox* - Aug 8, 2007 7:01 am (#33 of 44)
No, I meant the part about the "Riddle Harry and Hermione" actually rising up out of the locket. I thought the voice alone was much more sinister; the little figures embracing seemed almost laughable.

I think that it made no sense for us, who have to privilege of seeing everything from Harry's point of view and know that nothing like that would ever happen between him and Hermione. But, this is one of the ultimate torments for Ron. We know that the horcruxes are able to learn things about the people who are close to them, and tormented whichever of the Trio were wearing them at the time. I think that the point of it all was to show that it would never happen, because we know that Harry and Hermione wouldn't embrace; BUT, the locket was trying to keep Ron from "killing" it and needed to distract him as long and as hard as possible. Yes, I think it is grotesque for the figures to have embraced, but I think that was the point. I cringed when it happened, and not because it made me particularly uncomfortable, but because it was meant to make Ron particularly uncomfortable.

LOL - Does any of what I wrote make sense?

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NFla Barbara - Aug 8, 2007 1:52 pm (#34 of 44)
Megfox, it absolutely makes sense. I just thought the voices (like the voices Ron heard in his head) were more effective and more tormenting. Maybe the author is visualizing it better than I am...that is definitely possible!

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haymoni - Aug 8, 2007 5:06 pm (#35 of 44)
I felt bad for Ron - Jo could have skipped the embrace.

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valuereflection - Aug 9, 2007 2:27 pm (#36 of 44)
One more parallel to LotR, Hermione is described as 'beautiful' and 'terrible', like Galadriel. --journeymom, Post #21

Where in the book was Hermione described as "beautiful" and "terrible"? I must have missed it.

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Choices - Aug 9, 2007 3:00 pm (#37 of 44)
"'Presumption!' echoed the Riddle-Hermione, who was more beautiful and yet more terrible than the real Hermione."

Ch. The Silver Doe - page 376 of Scholastic hardcover

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valuereflection - Aug 9, 2007 4:14 pm (#38 of 44)
Thank you, Choices. I didn't catch that before now.

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Caput Draconis - Aug 13, 2007 9:51 pm (#39 of 44)
I thought the piece of Voldemort's soul in the locket did a pretty good job of fighting for survival, using the secrets and desires it had absorbed from Ron to try and turn him against Harry. I figured when Ron raised the sword he had the choice of turning it on Harry or the locket, and choosing to destroy the Horcrux cemented his return - like destroying the parts of himself that had made him leave in the first place.

I love the doe and shrill, sarcastic Hermione.

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journeymom - Aug 14, 2007 7:21 am (#40 of 44)
Well put, Caput Draconis!

And I love your avatar. By Grabthar's hammer...

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Orion - Aug 20, 2007 12:41 pm (#41 of 44)
Gina R Snape (correct?), you wrote: "Snape only truly makes a final leap when he is no longer just listening to DD. And both Ron and Harry make a great leap forward when they learn to trust something light outside themselves." That's brilliant! It's an Entwicklungsroman thing, isn't it, that Harry can only become a grown up when he has lost all father and mother figures in his life, his actual parents, Sirius, and finally Dumbledore. Then he is forced to make his own decisions. So in the epilogue he is mature enough to have his own family. Joanne Rowling is very harsh on Harry because she takes away not only his authorities but also everything which belonged to his adolescence and which he loved, that is to say Hedwig and the firebolt, his beloved wand and Hogwarts too. He is only allowed to keep his friends, because they have to grow up too.

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Gina R Snape - Aug 21, 2007 8:37 am (#42 of 44)
Yes, Orion. I agree it is an Entwicklungsroman for Harry and many other characters (including Snape) as well, or perhaps bildungsroman since formative years for Harry and others takes place at Hogwarts.

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tandaradei - Aug 28, 2007 1:38 pm (#43 of 44)
I readily admit being out of my comfort zone here, but as I understand it there are 2 basic models for a protagonist maturing in the modern novel:

(1) The coductive "herd-acclimatizing" and reactive-type modern models, which we might see in a Bildungsroman, Entwicklungsroman, or Künstlerroman; and
(2) The self-actualizing and/or internally proactive models that we more frequently are seen in stories such as a Medieval Quest. I understood Jo to be attempting the Quest-type model (as per her discussion just after the HBJ publication last year).

Stripping authority figures away from a protagonist in itself suggests a reactive model, where one learns to self-culturize at a mature level, beyond instructions from authorities, for example; and thus within the Bildungsroman-type. However, what of the stripping of Harry further, of internal comforts such as Hedwig, his Firebolt and his wand? This all sounds more like an internal testing of the hero IMO; of where one expects the medieval Questor to ?make it on his own? in some kind of near-autonomous territory, outside cultural expectations. In the medieval quest it is more the idea of the hero informing society of where one should go and what kind of person one should be, maybe past societal expectations; than of the protagonist meeting or even excelling in such expectations.

I kind of think of Harry?s maturing as transcending the normal societal norms expected; as going beyond; as being a hero of more mythic makeup. Remember how throughout everyone stares at him? I think of Harry as undergoing an egregious (out-of-the-herd) testing and as overcoming egregious odds; and as becoming something society looks up towards and learns from, instead of the other way around.

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tandaradei - Oct 16, 2007 4:45 pm (#44 of 44)
Edited Oct 16, 2007 6:16 pm
It dismays me to see this line of attack ? whether or not HP is a Bildungsroman ? hasn't been fleshed out in my absence! I've had a few talks with a professor who is keen on such stuff, and she says Harry Potter incorporates both Bildungsroman and Medieval Quest aspects in its writing.

I am a neophyte to this kind of stuff, but have looked into it; and it seems to me this is the perfect chapter to undertake a study as to what JKR has created for us. (BTW, I have read some of Wilhelm Meister?s Apprenticeship ? Goethe ? upon which the classic Bildungsroman has been based ? so please applaud my efforts for slogging through bits of that!)

OK, from Wikipedia here are what, to my mind, highlight the chief constituents of a Bildungsroman, as apart from other kinds of literature:
The process of maturing is long, arduous, and gradual, consisting of repeated clashes between the needs or desires of the hero and the views and judgments enforced by an unbending social order. This bears some similarity to Sigmund Freud's concept of the pleasure principle versus the reality principle.
Eventually, the spirit and values of the social order become manifest in the protagonist, who is then accommodated into society. The novel ends with an assessment by the protagonist of himself/herself and his/her new place in that society.
The character is generally making a smooth movement away from conformity. Major conflict is self vs. society or individuality vs. conformity.
I am going to paraphrase this into saying that the protagonist appears to gain a new wisdom, based on his life experiences up to that point, which enables him to ?do the right thing,? both in terms of what "proper society? is suggesting for him, and also in terms of what he visualizes he (as a self-actualized personality) just plain should do. OK, for ?proper society,? one here might want to substitute ?proper magic's constraints, and what wizadry knows to be the right thing to do? as proper society -- and maybe, what DD and Hermione judge best, too; but its near the same thing IMO in this instance as being "proper society" from that definition; and regarding Harry?s development it works for me as a Bildungsroman. Whew!!!

Here?s the key passages, where Harry both figures out how the sword must be retrieved, and how to destroy the horcrux:
...[cut]...Harry stopped walking and let out a long sigh, his smoky breath dispersing rapidly upon the frozen air. He knew what he had to do. If he was honest with himself, he had thought it might come to this from the moment he had spotted the sword through the ice...
...[cut]...
...[cut]...Now was not the time for discussions; now was the moment to destroy the locket once and for all. Harry looked around, holding Hermione's wand high, and saw a place...[cut]...
"Come here," he said, and he led the way, brushed snow from the rock's surface, and held out his hand for the Horcrux. When Ron offered the sword, however, Harry shook his head.
"No, you should do it."
"Me?" said Ron, looking shocked. "Why?"
Because you got the sword out of the pool. I think it's supposed to be you."

He was not being kind or generous. As certainly as he had known that the doe was benign, he knew that Ron had to be the one to wield the sword. Dumbledore had at least taught Harry something about certain kinds of magic, of the incalculable power of certain acts...[cut]...
DH19

This is Harry?s newly found wisdom, coming incidentally after a spiritual nadir from his wrestling over the knowledge of a very fallible (though more human) Dumbledore.

This, along with Harry?s decision to give up the Elder Wand in the end (a deep decision coming IMO from "new acquired wisdom"), are very strong indicators that elements of the Bildungsroman are alive and well in this story.

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Mona Sun Sep 25, 2011 6:08 am

Kip Carter - Jul 19, 2007 4:52 am
Edited Jul 25, 2007 12:32 am
This thread is to discuss Only of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows!

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Jenniffler - Jul 23, 2007 5:19 pm (#1 of 22)
When I looked at the chapter title before I read the book, ( Yep I'm in the read them first camp!) I said Uh-oh! Luna's done something totally weird. I was thinking a love potion gone awry. Mr. Lovegood's first name,Xenophillius, does it mean the love of the strange? Strangelove?

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Solitaire - Jul 23, 2007 6:27 pm (#2 of 22)
LOL at Strangelove, Jenniffler! He certainly does love the strange, all right. In the Muggle world, he could run Ripley's Believe It Or Not!

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Chemyst - Jul 23, 2007 6:34 pm (#3 of 22)
Xeno, (sometimes spelled Zeno) was an ancient Greek math theoretician. Xeno's Paradox is totally whacky because it "proves" motion is impossible. I love the name for Luna's dad.

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journeymom - Jul 23, 2007 10:12 pm (#4 of 22)
Time is an illusion; lunch time, doubly so.

I thought his name was an opposite of the term 'xenophobic', a fear of strangers (foreigners). But in more broad terms, it fits with Mr Xeno of Ancient Greece, since Xenophillia loves strange theories.

============

And I'm thinking Dumbledore knew Mrs Lovegood, who died trying to destroy a horcrux.

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 24, 2007 9:23 am (#5 of 22)
"And I'm thinking Dumbledore knew Mrs Lovegood, who died trying to destroy a horcrux." And whos horcrux might that have been?

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Madam Pince - Jul 24, 2007 12:55 pm (#6 of 22)
Hmmmm... I've long wondered what was going on with Mrs. Lovegood's backfired spell that killed her...

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Mediwitch - Jul 24, 2007 4:10 pm (#7 of 22)
So they put a Taboo on Voldemort's name, hmmm... Back in Chapter 14, Ron doesn't want Harry and Hermione to say Voldie's name, which is quite usual except he also says, "...it feels like a - a jinx or something." Go Ron!

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Choices - Jul 27, 2007 11:07 am (#8 of 22)
journeymom - "And I'm thinking Dumbledore knew Mrs Lovegood, who died trying to destroy a horcrux."

Luna tells Harry that her mother was an extraordinary witch who liked to experiment and she was killed when one of her spells went horribly wrong. When did that translate to her destroying a Horcrux? Did I miss something?

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HungarianHorntail11 - Jul 28, 2007 10:44 am (#9 of 22)
I didn't read the chapter titles beforehand. As a matter of fact, I didn't know what chapter I was in for most of my read. I just started reading and didn't look up unless I had to, lol.

When Harry looked out the window and saw the stream but no Luna, my spidey sense started tingling. I couldn't help but think, 'wouldn't he see her out there'?

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haymoni - Jul 28, 2007 7:56 pm (#10 of 22)
Isn't there a fear - xeno-something - I thought it had to do with strangers - The Lovegoods don't seem to fear anything.

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Sparrowhawk - Jul 29, 2007 1:17 am (#11 of 22)
Yes, Haymoni, it is xenophobia - the exact opposite of xenophilia... Surprised

)

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rambkowalczyk - Aug 7, 2007 6:41 am (#12 of 22)
My son who was reading the book with me thought the father was using delaying tactics and wondered why Luna didn't immediately join them. I was clueless.

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icthestrals - Aug 8, 2007 12:55 pm (#13 of 22)
I thought it was strange also that Luna wouldn't have come in with her father when he returned. I figured something was up by the way he was behaving and kept saying that Luna would be there soon.

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haymoni - Aug 8, 2007 5:06 pm (#14 of 22)
At first I thought it was strange, but then I thought - typical Luna - she probably found some nargles along the way!

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Nicoline Vance - Aug 11, 2007 2:49 pm (#15 of 22)
I thought that Luna had died and Xenophilius had cracked. I was sure that they would find an obituary and that her father would finally admit she was never coming back. He just was pretending she was out of the house, because the truth grieved him too much.

I was glad she was still alive, but not pleased that he was giving in to the pressure. As a parent myself, I don't condemn him too much.

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Choices - Aug 12, 2007 3:15 pm (#16 of 22)
The knocker on the Lovegood's door is an eagle - the symbol of Ravenclaw.

Mr. Lovegood buying the supposed Snorkack horn from a wizard reminds me of Hagrid getting the dragon's egg from a wizard.

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haymoni - Aug 17, 2007 5:20 pm (#17 of 22)
I thought the same thing, Choices.

They never learn!

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Madam Pince - Aug 17, 2007 10:06 pm (#18 of 22)
Nicoline, I was right there with you -- I was convinced that Luna was dead and Xenophilius had gone off his rocker. Clearly (to me, anyway) Luna wasn't down at the river, and I couldn't imagine why daddy was stringing them along, unless he was confused himself.

Unfortunately, I've actually encountered this in real life, where someone didn't realize/remember that a family member was deceased, and kept expecting them to come in the room. It's one of the saddest things you could ever see, and I was sure that was what was going on in this chapter.

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valuereflection - Aug 18, 2007 6:48 pm (#19 of 22)
So they put a Taboo on Voldemort's name, hmmm... Back in Chapter 14, Ron doesn't want Harry and Hermione to say Voldie's name, which is quite usual except he also says, "...it feels like a - a jinx or something." Go Ron! -- Mediwitch, Post #7

Mediwitch, I agree! In chapter 14 I felt like Ron was more attuned at that time to some undefined danger than Harry or Hermione were. I assumed Ron was more sensitive to whatever it was than the others were, because his critical injury forced him to relax while the others were urgently doing chores: trying to heal him, erect the tent, set up protective enchantments, figure out what happened, etc. Ron felt so weak that he spoke little and thus contributed little to their conversation. He was gray and sweaty. Nevertheless, he felt so intensely about this issue that "it feels like a jinx," was one of the first things he said. For the first time since his injury, he raised himself to speak in order to better convince the other two. He was willing to exert himself sufficiently to argue and defend his idea.

Harry and Hermione gave in to Ron because they patronized him. But during the subsequent weeks as Ron regained strength, he did not decide that the idea was silly and a symptom of his physical weakness, as the others had decided. I admired Ron for sticking to his conviction that his initial impression was valid.

Now that chapter 20 shows Ron was right, I have a theory why he was subconsciously aware of Death Eaters' jinx on Voldemort's name. Ron had been splinched, which means that his upper arm remained behind. Mr. Weasley explained this in chapter 6 of GoF. Ron's upper arm was on the top step just outside the front door of #12 Grimmauld Place, while the rest of Ron was in the woods where the Quidditch World Cup was held. Yaxley was on the step of Grimmauld Place with Ron's upper arm. I believe that Yaxley was the Death Eater who originally cast the Jinx on Voldemort's name, on the day of Bill and Fleur's wedding.

In chapter 1 we saw that Voldemort placed Yaxley in charge of bringing the Ministry of Magic down and making it under Voldemort's control -- because Voldemort asked Yaxley to report on the project. At that time there was no jinx on Voldemort's name; the Death Eaters would need the authority of the Ministry of Magic in order to cast such a powerful jinx on the entire Wizarding world that it would track people by causing a kind of magical disturbance. On the evening before the wedding, Harry said Voldemort's name in the Burrow, and there were no repercussions. Right after the wedding, when the Ministry had fallen, Ron was the one who said Voldemort's name in Tottenham Court Road. Ron activated the newly cast Taboo jinx, which caused Death Eaters to quickly track him through the magical apparatus of the Ministry.

The Taboo must have been cast by the Death Eaters in the very short period of time between when the Ministry fell to their control and when Death Eaters apparated to the Burrow. Since Yaxley was in charge of the coup, and we observed his dynamic personality in chapter 12, I deduced that he must have been right out in front of the action at the Ministry. He was probably the person who cast the new Taboo and made it part of the new policy of the Ministry.

A part of Ron was literally in Yaxley's presence at the moment when Hermione started to say Voldemort's name in chapter 14. Ron had already experienced the magical disturbance he caused with the Taboo in chapter 9, but he had not recognized what it was earlier. I think Ron might have instinctively sensed the powerful jinx because a part of him was with the caster. It also helped that he had experienced the magical disturbance once before, and that he was lying quietly enough to notice the disturbance beginning to form again.

Mr. Weasley also said, "It's not easy, Apparition, and when it's not done properly it can lead to nasty complications. This pair I'm talking about went and splinched themselves." I wonder what other nasty complications could be caused by improper Apparition, and if Ron's instinctive awareness of this jinx could be another example of a nasty complication.

I think that the trio's Apparition to the woods, from the top step in front of Grimmauld Place, probably was done improperly. Harry was between Hermione and Ron, holding onto Hermione's hand and Ron's arm. Yaxley was on the other side of Hermione. Hermione said she shook Yaxley off onto the top step and brought Harry and Ron with her to the woods. Harry had no idea where she was taking him, so she was doing Side-Along Apparition with Harry. Ron was being held by Harry, with Harry's other hand. I don't think Ron was doing Side-Along Apparition quite correctly. Hermione was the only one of the trio who knew the destination, but Ron wasn't touching Hermione directly. Ron also had no idea they weren't stopping at Grimmaauld Place, so Ron could not have Apparated himself by using Harry to guide him, as Harry did with Dumbledore in HBP chapter 25. (Hermione said Yaxley saw the door and thought they were stopping there, so he slackened his grip. Harry saw the door, but he felt Hermione's hand tighten her grip on his, so he had no idea what happened. Ron would have seen the door but felt no signal from Harry to tell him they were Apparating again.)

How far-fetched is my theory?

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Marie E. - Aug 20, 2007 6:38 am (#20 of 22)
It sounds like Harry was doing Side-Along Apparition and poor Ron was doing Drag-Along Apparition.

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Luna Logic - Aug 20, 2007 7:27 am (#21 of 22)
LOL Marie ! Hope Ron will learn better if he wants to be an auror! Leaving fragments of oneself everywhere is not a funny way of travelling!

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haymoni - Aug 20, 2007 4:54 pm (#22 of 22)
We had a thread about Ron's predictions - I guess we could add Voldy's name actually being Taboo as one of them.

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Mona Sun Sep 25, 2011 6:10 am

Kip Carter - Jul 19, 2007 4:58 am
Edited Jul 25, 2007 12:33 am
This thread is to discuss Only of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows!

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Ms Hagrid - Jul 22, 2007 9:40 pm (#1 of 21)
Doing a re-read of this chapter, I couldn't help but notice the following on page 415 (Scholastic ed.)

Ron: ".....I've got an unbeatable wand, come and have a go if you think you're hard enough....."

Hermione: ".....Wands are only as powerful as the wizards that use them. Some wizards just like to boast that theirs are bigger and better than other people's....."

Maybe I'm a little punchy at this point, but I can't help but think there's a double meaning in this. :-)

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freshwater - Jul 23, 2007 11:28 am (#2 of 21)
Uhm, no, Ms Hagrid, you're not punchy...I got that same impression as I was reading. Just one more example of why these "children's stories" --the innuenndo will go right over the heads of most kids-- are still a fun read for adults. **grin**

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journeymom - Jul 23, 2007 2:51 pm (#3 of 21)
Oh, I'm thoroughly enjoying the more crude humor. "Merlin's saggy left...!" Though I had to explain to 12 y.o. daughter what Y-front briefs are.

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Jenniffler - Jul 23, 2007 5:19 pm (#4 of 21)
Exposition about the deathly hallows and betrayal to save Luna, what a chapter.

The painting on Luna's wall. The golden chain of the word friend. My heart reached out to her. Poetry.

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M A Grimmett - Jul 24, 2007 6:57 am (#5 of 21)
Luna is so awesome.

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Madam Pince - Jul 24, 2007 12:57 pm (#6 of 21)
Thank you, journeymom. I thought "Y-fronts" must be briefs, but I wasn't entirely sure...

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Oruma - Jul 27, 2007 7:11 am (#7 of 21)
Honestly, when the Resurrection Stone's properties were described, my first thought was "whoa! That's the veiled arch in the Department of Mysteries!"

Although it is rather too big to "turn around thrice" in a wizard's hands...Dumbledore suggested that the Peverell Brothers might have created the three Hallows through experiments or accident in "King's Cross", which makes me wonder: perhaps the stone and the Arch shares a mythical origin, a link to death? Just a random thought...

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haymoni - Jul 28, 2007 7:58 pm (#8 of 21)
Jennifler - I loved that part also.

And too cool that Harry was the only one that saw it and understood its meaning immediately.

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freshwater - Jul 29, 2007 9:27 pm (#9 of 21)
Oruma, that's an interesting thought --in your white print-- about the veil arch and the stone....makes me think that there is likely a Beedle the Bard story about the creation or use of the arch/veil.

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rambkowalczyk - Aug 7, 2007 8:04 am (#10 of 21)
This chapter reminded me of the Da Vinci Code, the book by Dan Brown. I tend to be Hermione in that I thought the book was an interesting read but I did not believe in it's underlying assumptions. For instance Dan Brown uses the argument that because Leonardo Da Vinci (who lived over a thousand years after the event) believed that Mary Magdalene was the wife of Jesus, then it must be true. Not proof in my book.

Now when Xenophilius says "The sign of the Deathly Hallows on Ignotus' grave is conclusive proof." I see the same flawed argument. Just because Ignotus believed, doesn't make it true. I felt like Hermione did that the story of the Deathly Hallows were just a story mainly because in book 3 and 4 it has been shown that the cloak isn't inpenetrable. If I remember correctly the Marauders map shows Harry under the cloak and Moody's eye can see through it as well.

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Phelim Mcintyre - Aug 7, 2007 8:48 am (#11 of 21)
rambkowalczyk - I thought the whole book had overtones over Da Vinci Code.

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James Greenfield - Aug 7, 2007 10:43 am (#12 of 21)
OK, I suspect this may eventually need to go in another thread, but ...

Xenophilius Lovegood gives the names of the three Peverell brothers as Antioch, Cadmus, and Ignotus (p. 413, American Scholastic edition). Now, if you carefully take the first letters of their names; A, C, and I; and superimpose them on each other, you get _almost_ the symbol of the deathly Hallows. Coincidence?

Oh, also note that "Xenophilius" translates as Greek for "lover of the strange".

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Luna Logic - Aug 7, 2007 12:56 pm (#13 of 21)
Perhaps not coincidence. But some Orestus and no Cadmus would have done better?

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Sparrowhawk - Aug 7, 2007 2:03 pm (#14 of 21)
But if this were the case, Ignotus should have had the wand, Antioch the cloak and Cadmos the ring...

Also, the names Antioch, Cadmus and Ignotus clearly have greco-roman connections. Antiochus was a frequent name among the Seleucid kings (and the history of this dynasty is particularly bloody, which fits very well with the Elder wand and the violent way it passes from hand to hand); Cadmus (or Cadmos) is a mythological king, who eventually was turned into a snake by Zeus (no surprise that he would be the ancestor of Salazar Slytherin, and later "dear" Voldie... Besides, the snake is symbolically connected with death and immortality). And Ignotus means "unknown", or occasionally "forgiven", which is appropriate for the brother who got the Invisibility Cloak, and couldn't be found by Death until he so decided...

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Luna Logic - Aug 7, 2007 2:28 pm (#15 of 21)
Thanks for your mythological and very interesting research. (I was just joking about the O and Orestus...First name with a O on my mind !)
Sparrowhawk Cadmus (or Cadmos) is a mythological king, who eventually was turned into a snake by Zeus (no surprise that he would be the ancestor of Salazar Slytherin, and later "dear" Voldie... Besides, the snake is symbolically connected with death and immortality)
Yes, symbolically it does make great sense. But I wonder, how could Cadmus have children? He did love a girl, but she died, and I don't imagine he was married to another when he got the ring?

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James Greenfield - Aug 7, 2007 6:55 pm (#16 of 21)
Thank you all for your comments.

To make things more complex, or to show that I'm barking up the wrong tree, let me point out that:

1. There is an historical character, Ignatius, who was bishop of Antioch (the city).

2. Cadmus in Greek legend slew a dragon and later sowed its teeth, which turned into fierce warriors. (See a later chapter for teeth as weapons.)

3. I think (don't have the reference here) that Cadmus and his wife, who were both turned into snakes, became the intertwined snakes shown even to this day as twining the staff in the standard symbol for medicine. It's called a Caduceus (spelling?).

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freshwater - Aug 8, 2007 8:16 am (#17 of 21)
"...it has been shown that the cloak isn't impenetrable..."

This is true, but does not necessarily indicate that the story is just a story. I believe I read that JKR answered a question in a recent interview "why could DD see who was wearing the invisability cloak?" and her answer was that he silently cast the charm to reveal human presence...I believe Hermione cast that when they first entered #12 Grimmauld Place. And Moody's eye was, of course, magical, as was the Marauder's Map....and both apparently were charmed to detect human presence despite physical barriers such as walls, floors, etc. So...Harry's invisability cloak can clearly be overcome by magical means, but remains impenetrable to average vision. That is what was suggested in Beedle's story.

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journeymom - Aug 8, 2007 2:28 pm (#18 of 21)
Also, Cadmus of Greek legend is attributed with creating the alphabet. Nice little link to Hermione's runes studies. Also, the character Hermes was called Cadmus in some parts.

Is there any link to the element cadmium?

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Chemyst - Aug 8, 2007 4:44 pm (#19 of 21)
Help always comes to those who ask ~

Cadmium was discovered by Friedrich Strohmeyer (Germany) in 1817. The origin of the name comes from the Latin word cadmia meaning calamine (zinc carbonate, ZnCO3), or from the Greek word kadmeia with the same meaning. It is soft, malleable, blue-white metal. Tarnishes in air, soluble in acids, insoluble in alkalis. Boiling cadmium gives off a weird, yellow-colored vapour that is poisonous. Cadmium can cause a variety of health problems, including kidney failure and high blood pressure.
from here

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Elanor - Aug 8, 2007 9:05 pm (#20 of 21)
Cadmus's story has also been used a lot by the alchemists (him killing the snake/dragon being an image for "the fixation of the volatile", that is what is needed for the completion of the Great Work/making of the Stone).

We evoked Cadmus long ago on the alchemy thread when discussing the HBP chapter 10 (The House of Gaunt), in which Morphin has nailed a snake onto a door. Here is a link to what we said then: from post #947 to 950.

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Choices - Aug 12, 2007 3:21 pm (#21 of 21)
A very informative chapter. I think the Tale of the Three Brothers is very interesting.

At last, we find out about the Peverells.

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Mona Sun Sep 25, 2011 6:12 am

Kip Carter - Jul 19, 2007 5:00 am
Edited Jul 25, 2007 12:33 am
This thread is to discuss Only Chapter Twenty-Two - The Deathly Hallows of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows!

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Madam Pince - Jul 22, 2007 6:27 am (#1 of 24)
Edited Jul 22, 2007 7:58 am
OK, so it's sounding like Harry's family might be descended from Peverell, and we know the Gaunt family was descended from Peverell. That explains a familial resemblance between Harry and Tom Riddle -- they are collateral relatives. Harry's not descended from Voldemort, but they're both descended from Peverell, does that sound right?

And OK, fine, MickeyCee! Now I see what you meant about the other reason DD had the cloak from back on the Chapter Ten thread... told you I'm never right...

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MickeyCee3948 - Jul 22, 2007 11:31 am (#2 of 24)
Oh, I think you are right most of the time Madam Pince. After all you usually agree with me. Cough,,,Cough. The last bite of crow went down badly.

Mickey

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Kevin Corbett - Jul 24, 2007 4:40 pm (#3 of 24)
Madam Pince---I'm not sure if a genetic relationship that distant would really make them look alike. I think once you go back more than a couple of generations, the genetic similarities between people are so small that they rarely affect physical appearance.

OH! And you all have to tell me if you thought of this as I did---Fred's codename (er...if it really was Fred and not George) was first "Rodent", and he demanded it be changed to "Rapier". When I read this I immediately thought "Reepicheep"! The rapier-wielding mouse from the Narnia books. It fits even more when you recall that the Weasel is, after all, in the rodentia family. I wonder what Fred's Patronus was...

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Madam Pince - Jul 24, 2007 5:55 pm (#4 of 24)
That's a good thought about "Rapier," Kevin! I got that "Royal" was for "Kingsley," and that "Jordan" is a "River", and that "Romulus" was the twin of "Remus," but I hadn't figured out the Rapier one. Good call! (Hmmmm... it also makes me think of a rapier-sharp wit, which Fred certainly had, too...) Any idea why they all wanted to be "R's"?

The genetic thing is probably true in most cases, but keep in mind that wizarding families, especially pureblood ones, have by definition not been diluted down as much over the years as perhaps modern muggle families. Casting no aspersions on my in-laws' marrying habits, () if you compare my husband's photograph with one we have of his great-great-great (maybe one more great, I'm not sure) uncle, you would swear they are brothers.

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Kevin Corbett - Jul 24, 2007 10:37 pm (#5 of 24)
Ah, that is true. If you have a smaller gene pool, you might get closer genetic similarities.

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 25, 2007 9:11 am (#6 of 24)
"Reepicheep", does this mean Finn is Fred? LOL, Sorry, couldn't resist!

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Kevin Corbett - Jul 25, 2007 3:41 pm (#7 of 24)
Um...sorry, I don't follow.

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Chemyst - Jul 25, 2007 4:03 pm (#8 of 24)
Finn is a forum member who used to have an avatar of him kayaking on the Great Lakes. Most of us thought he looked a lot like Reepicheep (of C S Lewis's Narnia) heading off to the end of the world in the picture.

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Kevin Corbett - Jul 25, 2007 6:06 pm (#9 of 24)
Ooooh. Interesting.

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Oruma - Jul 27, 2007 1:53 am (#10 of 24)
They might all have codenames beginning with "R" because R is also for "Resistance" or "Rebels"...

...or they just like the letter.

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Anna L. Black - Jul 28, 2007 6:15 am (#11 of 24)
'I got that "Royal" was for "Kingsley," and that "Jordan" is a "River", and that "Romulus" was the twin of "Remus,"' - Madam Pince

Oooh, I'm so stupid! **smacks self on forehead** Royal and Romulus were easy, but I spent quite a while thinking whether there's a river called "Lee" somewhere, and not for a second have I thought of the Jordan River! And that is while living in Israel... *banging head on table*

OK, I'm done

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haymoni - Jul 28, 2007 8:00 pm (#12 of 24)
Maybe the "R"s were a tribute to Ron.

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freshwater - Jul 29, 2007 9:32 pm (#13 of 24)
Maybe the "R's" are because they're on the rrrradio....sorry, it just wouldn't stay in my head and leaked out through my fingertips.

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Finn BV - Jul 30, 2007 8:30 am (#14 of 24)
I like that thought about the Rapier Rodent Reepicheep (me ), but don't you think that's a bit of a stretch of a link? All the others are quite simple; would the Potterwatch audience have made the connection?

And in honor of this, I've reuploaded my "Reepicheep" avatar.

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Jenniffler - Jul 30, 2007 10:41 am (#15 of 24)
R for Rebellion? That sounds kind of Star Wars-y. :Smile:

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haymoni - Jul 30, 2007 3:03 pm (#16 of 24)
It seems to me that Kingsley's voice is very distinctive. Why wasn't he arrested?

Any Slytherin who was at school when Lee was announcing the matches would recognize his voice.

I'm surprized they were able to get away with it.

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Solitaire - Jul 30, 2007 3:47 pm (#17 of 24)
Didn't they say they were moving every few days? I thought that is why they weren't sure when the next "broadcast" would be.

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Jenniffler - Jul 30, 2007 6:15 pm (#18 of 24)
I loved the password to tune in to the broadcast. It reminded me of the Maruaders' Map.

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Finn BV - Jul 30, 2007 8:52 pm (#19 of 24)
I dunno how much the Ministry'd really care about this in arresting him, but there isn't any actual proof though that it was Kingsley -- for all they know, it could have been Stan Shunpike using Polyjuice Potion! Though I'm sure there may be some spell to reveal who's talking on a radio broadcast?

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Oruma - Jul 30, 2007 11:42 pm (#20 of 24)
I thought Kingsley was on the run already, as he was a member of the OotP? Ron mentioned him fighting DEs and all...

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Soul Mate for Sirius - Jul 31, 2007 4:34 am (#21 of 24)
I think you're right Oruma. I thought Ron told Harry and Hermione that Kingsley had said LV's name and activated the tabboo and now had to go into hiding...

-Jenn

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haymoni - Jul 31, 2007 4:38 pm (#22 of 24)
Yes - I thought about that after I typed it - Never mind!

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Mediwitch - Aug 1, 2007 9:35 am (#23 of 24)
I love when they said on the radio that You-Know-Who "can move faster than Severus Snape confronted with shampoo"! ROFL

Nature's Nobility: A Wizarding Geneology came back again - I remember lots of speculation that it would be important.

We finally have the answer to the NAQ about why Dumbledore had James's cloak!

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rambkowalczyk - Aug 7, 2007 3:00 pm (#24 of 24)
When I first read this chapter, I thought for sure Harry had it all wrong, but now on reread he actually had it all right. I was thinking that Dumbledore set up a false trail for Voldemort to follow--get the Elder wand etc so that Harry could have time to figure out where the horcruxes were.

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Harry Potter Book Read Along Thread - Deathly Hallows

Harry Potter Book Read Along Thread - Deathly Hallows

Chapter One - The Dark Lord Ascending

Chapter One - The Dark Lord Ascending (Continued)

Chapter Two - In Memoriam

Chapter Three - The Dursleys Departing

Chapter Four - The Seven Potters

Chapter Four - The Seven Potters (Continued)

Chapter Five - Fallen Warrior

Chapter Six - The Ghoul in Pajamas

Chapter Seven - The Will of Albus Dumbledore

Chapter Eight - The Wedding

Chapter Nine - A Place to Hide

Chapter Ten - Kreacher's Tale

Chapter Eleven - The Bribe

Chapter Twelve - Magic is Might

Chapter Thirteen - The Muggle-born Registration Commission

Chapter Fourteen - The Thief

Chapter Fifteen - The Goblin's Revenge

Chapter Sixteen - Godric's Hollow

Chapter Seventeen - Bathilda's Secret

Chapter Eighteen - The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore

Chapter Nineteen - The Silver Doe

Chapter Twenty - Xenophilius Lovegood

Chapter Twenty-One - The Tale of the Three Brothers

Chapter Twenty-Two - The Deathly Hallows

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