Chapter Twenty-Three - Malfoy Manor

[Mona]

Kip Carter - Jul 19, 2007 5:04 am
Edited Jul 25, 2007 12:34 am
This thread is to discuss Only Chapter Twenty-Three - Malfoy Manor of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows!


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Prefect Marcus - Jul 23, 2007 3:02 pm (#1 of 66)
Youch! I would not want to be any of the Malfoys at the end of this chapter.

Marcus

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Solitaire - Jul 23, 2007 6:55 pm (#2 of 66)
I was intrigued by Draco's reluctance to positively identify any of the trio, even though he was asked repeatedly. He kept saying "maybe," "could be," and "I can't be sure." What's up with that?

Actually, Marcus, I don't think Voldy will be too happy with Bella, either. Sort of a replay of the DoM ... except I think I'd prefer Azkaban to Voldemort's punishment.

Solitaire

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Prefect Marcus - Jul 24, 2007 1:11 am (#3 of 66)
Simple, he was pulling a Regalius. He was starting to realize that being a deatheater was not all it was cracked up to be.

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Nymphadora - Jul 24, 2007 2:35 am (#4 of 66)
I really thought he was trying to help without seeming too conspicuous and incurring Aunt Bella's wrath... I believe Draco has had enough of Voldy and Death Eaters by now. Don't forget he's essentially in house-arrest together with his parents, and that the Malfoy Manor has become DE Central without their consent. Having Bella around all the time can't be very pleasant, either.

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M A Grimmett - Jul 24, 2007 6:58 am (#5 of 66)
I also think he just didn't want these people to die because of him.

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Solitaire - Jul 24, 2007 9:24 am (#6 of 66)
Perhaps he realized just what killing entailed up on the Tower ... and decided he was not up for it. I agree, Nymphadora, that a steady diet of Aunt Bella would wear thin very quickly ... like in about 30 seconds. And it must be hard seeing his parents disrespected and their home commandeered in such a way. It's the first glimmer of hope I've had for Draco.

Solitaire

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Choices - Jul 27, 2007 11:21 am (#7 of 66)
Draco (and his parents) was being treated pretty badly by Voldemort, maybe he just decided he wouldn't wish that on his worst enemies.

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legolas returns - Jul 27, 2007 11:33 am (#8 of 66)
Didnt Voldemort spend his time abusing them both by torture and constant humiliation.

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Gina R Snape - Jul 29, 2007 3:20 pm (#9 of 66)
I wish we had gotten some clue as to what happened when Draco and Snape reported DD's death to him at the end of book 6. But there's no doubt he left Draco and the rest of the Malfoys 'on the hook' for his own use and amusement.

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Soul Search - Jul 29, 2007 4:02 pm (#10 of 66)
The Malfoys were there, that is, alive. Voldemort must not have been too displeased with Draco's performance. After all, Dumbledore was dead and Voldemort had moved his operation into high gear.

The Malfoys weren't off the hook, but seemed to have squeaked by.

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Gina R Snape - Jul 30, 2007 11:21 am (#11 of 66)
I think they were only alive because they were still marginally useful and a source of amusement for Voldemort. He was able to use them as an example to the other DEs and also use their house. Though, he easily could have used their house and not kept them alive.

I guess for me, the question is to whether he was more elated that DD was dead than he was annoyed it wasn't Draco who did it. Voldemort obviously has NO qualms about murdering people if it suits his purpose or if they annoy or get in his way. So why keep the Malfoys alive? (Except so we can all see Jason Isaacs again, of course ).

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Sparrowhawk - Jul 30, 2007 1:03 pm (#12 of 66)
"I think they were only alive because they were still marginally useful and a source of amusement for Voldemort."

Gina, I believe that you have nailed it very accurately, but there may also be another reason, IMO: the fact that they are purebloods. On one hand it would be good tactics on LV's part, because he needs the support of pureblood families, and he may not want to scare them too much. On the other hand, at a deeper level, I wonder if he doesn't suffer from some kind of inferiority complex: this would explain why he has called himself Lord, and why he hides the fact that his father was a Muggle... He might well relish this opportunity to take revenge without showing his true reasons, and enjoy humiliating the Malfoys just because they are so-called "purebloods".

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Soul Mate for Sirius - Jul 31, 2007 4:38 am (#13 of 66)
Sparrowhawk- I think you're exactly right about the Malfoy's being purebloods and that's why LV didn't kill them. I forget what chapter it's in, but at some point doesn't LV or one of the DE's say to one of the kids there's no need for them to die, because they're a pureblood and it would be a waste? (I"m at work and don't have my book on me, but I think maybe someone said that to Neville at some point?!?!)

-Jenn

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Magic Words - Jul 31, 2007 5:39 am (#14 of 66)
Yes, Voldemort says it to Neville when he's addressing the school after Harry's "death."

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Soul Mate for Sirius - Jul 31, 2007 7:33 am (#15 of 66)
Thanks Magic Words! I knew I wasn't imagining things!

-Jenn

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Catherine - Aug 1, 2007 6:53 am (#16 of 66)
I guess for me, the question is to whether he was more elated that DD was dead than he was annoyed it wasn't Draco who did it. Voldemort obviously has NO qualms about murdering people if it suits his purpose or if they annoy or get in his way. So why keep the Malfoys alive? (Except so we can all see Jason Isaacs again, of course --Gina

I think this is a really interesting issue. I think Voldemort expected Draco to fail, and the whole task was a way to torture the Malfoys as punishment for the debacle in the Ministry in OoP. When reading, I did not imagine that Voldemort was angry that Draco didn't/couldn't kill Dumbledore--I imagined him almost amused. But that's just how it felt to me.

Voldemort seems to enjoy giving Draco horrible and degrading tasks--like Crucioing folks on demand, for example.

When I was reading, I supposed that Voldemort kept the Malfoys alive just to enjoy their pain--in the sense that DD said that Bellatrix liked to "play with her food before eating it." I think seeing Voldemort lording it over Lucius is a very effective living reminder about how the Dark Lord does not tolerate failure. If he kills them, it's more "out of sight, out of mind."

Then, of course, there is the chance to see Jason Isaacs in the film.

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M A Grimmett - Aug 1, 2007 9:00 am (#17 of 66)
The Malfoys have reaped what they have sown. Lucius really enjoyed the "status" of being a Death Eater after LV disappeared; Draco likewise reflected this "glory". I suspect he had a much better time of it the first time around as well. But when LV showed up and saw what had happened--and had not--in his absence, the bullies became the victims. They got back what they had dished out to others, magnified, I think, because LV is like the evil of the others magnified.

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Soul Search - Aug 1, 2007 9:30 am (#18 of 66)
I was wondering when Voldemort moved into the Malfoy Mansion.

Lack of a mention of any other location would suggest after GoF. That would mean he was there during OotP, and especially, HBP. True, the ministry raided the mansion on a couple of occasions, but I'm sure Voldemort could have handled that.

Significance would be that Voldemort was at Malfoy Mansion when Draco returned from Hogwart's breaks. Also, of course, Narcissa would have been there, with Voldemort around, when she slipped off to Spinner's End. Might change our thoughts on those actions.

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Mediwitch - Aug 1, 2007 9:45 am (#19 of 66)
I am confused about whether or not Grayback is a Death Eater. After "Spinner's End", when Snape is discussing the Death Eaters who did not look for LV, he lists Grayback amongst them. So I assumed Grayback was a DE. There is textual evidence in DH that Grayback is NOT a DE:

*Harry thinks Grayback is "permitted to wear Death Eater robes in return for his hired savagery."
*He is with the Snatchers, not necessarily something I would assume a DE would be doing.
*Harry believes Grayback doesn't have a Dark Mark and can't summon LV directly.

Also, it's interesting that Narcissa pretends at first not to know Grayback. I think she is also repulsed by him. I was thrilled that Draco pretended not to be able to recognize Harry.

So you DO need a wand to Disapparate!

Harry is beginning to master Occlumency.

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legolas returns - Aug 1, 2007 10:27 am (#20 of 66)
I guess Occlumency is one of these things that Harry had to accidently discover before he could actively do it. I am far from convinced he could do it against anyone other than Voldemort. Voldemorts weakness is not understanding love etc.

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I Am Used Vlad - Aug 1, 2007 1:18 pm (#21 of 66)
Was anyone else reminded of The Dark Tower books when Harry had his vision of Voldemort going after Grindelwald? I wonder if she did it on purpose since Harry became a part of that series.

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journeymom - Aug 1, 2007 2:16 pm (#22 of 66)
Hm, I'm not familiar with the Dark Tower books. They're by Stephen King, right? He had some nice things to say about JKR and Harry Potter.

If I remember correctly, Harry saw through Voldemort, who was looking into Gregorovich's memory, when Gridelwald stole the Elder Wand. I thought that was pretty amazing.

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Gina R Snape - Aug 1, 2007 6:58 pm (#23 of 66)
Soul Search, that is a very interesting idea. We aren't told when he moves in, and I see no reason why he mightn't have moved in at some point during HBP. I doubt he was there during OOTP because one of the reasons he chooses Malfoy Mansion is to torture the Malfoys after Lucius makes his second major mistake (not getting the prophesy). But Draco would be just the sort of kid to initially not comprehend the negative impact Lord Voldemort moving into his house. He's very excited at the beginning of HBP as a new DE and with his super secret special mission. But as he's wearing down during the course of the story, having no escape from Voldemort even in his own home during break would be enough to put him over the edge.

And, I think he might have been amused that Draco tried so hard and still failed. Perhaps he never intended to kill Draco if he failed.

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Soul Search - Aug 1, 2007 8:20 pm (#24 of 66)
Gina,

My first thought was Voldemort must have been at Malfoy Mansion sometime during HBP, if for no other reason, the change we saw in Draco. He went from elation at having a task for Voldemort to desperation that his parents would be killed. Narcissa would have been at the mansion, with Voldemort and Death Eaters, but Lucius was in Azkaban. This had to worry Draco. Bellatrix must have been around, as well, since she taught Draco Occulmency.

Then, I could see Voldemort having moved into the mansion right after he got his body back. Just hints from his conversation with Lucius in the graveyard that he thought Lucius should start paying him back for the thirteen years Voldemort spent as a spirit and, maybe, Voldemort wanted to keep an eye on his "slippery friend."

On first read, I didn't realize the dungeon room when Harry etal were was the secret room "under the drawing room floor" Draco mentioned in CoS. Had to be a lot of hiding places in that mansion. My thoughts went to Moody's trunk and Hermione's purse. The RoR too, for that matter.

The ministry spent OotP and HBP trying to find Voldemort. What better place to hide than a large, magical, mansion with secret rooms.

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Gina R Snape - Aug 2, 2007 11:21 am (#25 of 66)
Actually, the ministry did nothing during OOTP to find him because they refused to believe he was back. But that doesn't mean he didn't want a sweet hiding space.

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M A Grimmett - Aug 3, 2007 8:42 am (#26 of 66)
We know from previous books that the Malfoy's manor has hiding places. It would be an excellent place for LV to go until he's ready to publicize his return.

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Soul Search - Aug 3, 2007 8:46 am (#27 of 66)
Yes, the ministry wasn't looking for Voldemort in Ootp, but the order might have been. Malfoy Manor would have been a good hiding place. Although, with Death Eaters coming an going all the time it might have been a bit suspicious.

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Finn BV - Aug 3, 2007 8:50 am (#28 of 66)
Mediwitch, I think Greyback simply has strong allegiances towards the Death Eaters, but is not technically/officially a Death Eater. He probably wants to be one, but LV doesn't necessarily want to accept a werewolf into his gang. Just like he's gotten the giants and the Dementors on his side, he doesn't let them attend his DE meetings.

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Mediwitch - Aug 3, 2007 9:52 am (#29 of 66)
I suspect you're right, Finn. It's just Snape's comment in HBP about Grayback, Lucius, and other DEs not looking for LV that gets me all !

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Gina R Snape - Aug 3, 2007 10:01 am (#30 of 66)
Someone pointed out to me last night that the Ministry raided Malfoy Mansion several times during HBP after Harry spoke to Arthur about his suspicions regarding Draco. So if Voldemort was there, he either hid from or confunded the Ministry officials who investigated (or they were ministry moles, but Arthur doesn't seem to have suspicions). This makes me think Voldemort did not actually move in until after Draco's failure.

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Solitaire - Aug 3, 2007 11:47 am (#31 of 66)
I think the Ministry officials seem to be fairly confunded on their own! Actually, with Fudge as close as he was to Malfoy--and Malfoy freely moving around in the Ministry--it is quite likely that Malfoy could have confunded anyone! I hope they were confunded. It's horrible to think the people who should have been keeping the WW safe are so stupid.

Solitaire

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Gina R Snape - Aug 3, 2007 12:28 pm (#32 of 66)
Fudge wasn't in office during HBP. But it was pretty shocking to see how ministry employees fell into line when Voldemort did take over. Many of them needed no confunding to embrace the 'Magic is Might' credo. But I think a lot of them were gutless and just wanted to keep their noses down so as to keep their jobs.

Still, I would not put it past certain people to miss Voldemort on a sweep of Malfoy Manor out of sheer incompetence. Is it any wonder DD didn't want to be Minister for Magic????

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Solitaire - Aug 5, 2007 8:52 am (#33 of 66)
Remember that Percy said it was hard to find a way to get out of the Ministry, because they were imprisoning traitors ... and quitting the Ministry now that Voldemort is in charge would definitely be considered treason. Perhaps they were less concerned about keeping their jobs than they were about keeping their families safe.

I agree that many--maybe even most--were probably as self-serving as Umbridge. But we know that some Ministry workers (Amelia Bones, Kingsley Shacklebolt, Arthur Weasley, for a few) had been truly interested in dispensing justice and keeping the world safe for Wizards as well as Muggles ... and if there were three, there were probably others, although they had probably been relegated to less important posts by the time LV was in charge.

Solitaire

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Gina R Snape - Aug 6, 2007 11:31 am (#34 of 66)
That's a good point, Solitaire. I wonder how many people kept their noses down at work but did some small part for the 'resistance' or would have had they known who to turn to.

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rambkowalczyk - Aug 8, 2007 12:30 pm (#35 of 66)
I noticed there is a difference in Draco's response and Lucius response when Harry is brought in. Lucius is avid, excited. He sees a way back into LV favor. Draco presumably intelligent, is scared. Was he actually hoping that Harry might defeat the Dark Lord?

There is emphasis on the contrast between Draco and Lucius

They were extraordinarily alike, except that while his father looked beside himself with excitement, Draco's expression was full of reluctance, even fear.

There is a definite difference in Draco from the 5th book when Umbridge had caught Harry and was threatening to Crucio him. Then it described Draco as looking hungrily on. Now it's obvious that Draco isn't a friend to either the Crucio curse or the killing Curse as Auntie Bella says "If you haven't the guts to finish them,..."

Elsewhere in this chapter Draco obeys orders and fights along side his parents. I do wonder though when Harry wrests the three wands from Draco how much resistance he uses. I mean he is ambivalent about the Dark Lord. On the other hand he probably doesn't like it that Harry has bested him again.

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Gina R Snape - Aug 10, 2007 5:34 pm (#36 of 66)
Interesting observation. I think Draco is simply more afraid of the whole situation than Lucius at this point. Lucius is more clever than Draco and can sense an opportunity plus know how to capitalize on it. Draco, I think, just wants the whole thing to go away. Harry at the Manor is a double-edged sword and Draco is probably more afraid than his father of the possible consequences of messing up because he is younger and more likely to die than Lucius. Lucius' ego may also be getting in the way of common sense. After all, Narcissa has to gently coax him into handing over his wand and playing along.

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haymoni - Aug 10, 2007 7:06 pm (#37 of 66)
I think Draco remembers a pretty cushy life while Voldy was just something to be talked about in hushed tones.

The real thing became way too real for him.

I could see Draco, in pure Slytherin form thinking, "If Potter is supposed to be The Chosen One, then let him get on with it and get me back to the life I used to enjoy!"

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Choices - Aug 12, 2007 3:32 pm (#38 of 66)
Clever girl, Hermione. She thought quickly and put the charm on Harry to make his face swell so that he would be unrecognizable. They arrive at Malfoy Manor and all those really smart wizards were there trying to figure out if Harry 3was Harry - so why didn't they just use Finite Incantaum to put him back to normal? Makes you wonder, doesn't it?

Bellatrix tortures Hermione to find out if they have been inside her vault at Gringott's - could she not have asked Snape for some Veritaserum? Would have been quicker and more sure, but then I guess she just enjoys torturing.

Harry asks for help and it arrives.

Harry has to remind Wormtail of his "debt" - it works to Wormtail's misfortune. Can't say I shed a tear for Peter.

You can not Apparate from too far away.

Dobby....**sob**

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Gina R Snape - Aug 14, 2007 7:33 am (#39 of 66)
So, Peter's hand. Was it bewitched by Voldemort to kill Peter if he tried to protect Potter? Or was that the result of him not following through on his life debt?

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Joanna Lupin - Aug 14, 2007 8:38 am (#40 of 66)
I'd say it was bewitched to punish Peter if he ever showed signs of weakness/pity. He did live up to the life-debt, his hold on Harry slackened.

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Allison R - Aug 14, 2007 8:54 am (#41 of 66)
Gina, I'd agree with Joanna Lupin here-- I think it is perfectly in keeping for a "gift" from Voldemort to come with strings attached and to punish the recipient if they did something displeasing to the gift-giver (Voldemort). Like all of his "kind acts", it may have looked shiny and pretty on the outside, but inside was much more sinister and designed to ultimately benefit only Voldemort.

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Chemyst - Aug 14, 2007 10:00 am (#42 of 66)
So, Peter's hand. Was it bewitched by Voldemort to kill Peter if he tried to protect Potter? Or was that the result of him not following through on his life debt?

On my first read, I had figured the hand would be triggered by disloyalty; but you drove me back to the book, Gina, and it says fairly clearly that, "Petigrew was reaping his reward for his hesitation, his moment of pity;"

That makes it sound like he just took too long. (With the Dark Lord, impatience is a virtue?)

... now I wonder about the speed of Peter's service as the butler at Spinner's End. — oh well, that's another thread.

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Choices - Aug 14, 2007 1:19 pm (#43 of 66)
I think Voldemort included a hex/jinx with the silver hand so that if ever it's owner hesitated to follow an order immediately, the hand disposed of the owner for being disloyal.

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valuereflection - Aug 20, 2007 7:01 am (#44 of 66)
ramkowalczyk, thank you for your observations about the change in Draco's character.

Regarding Grayback, I recall reading an interview with J. K. Rowling between the publication of Books 6 and 7, in which she commented on Grayback. The gist of her comment was that Voldemort uses Grayback to keep his Death Eaters in line, by threatening to set Grayback on their children if they don't obey the Dark Lord.

There have been so many Rowling interviews since the publication of Book 6, that the Quick Quotes Quill is not yet caught up with all of them. The interview I'm remembering is not yet posted on their website. Does anyone else remember it?

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valuereflection - Aug 20, 2007 9:31 am (#45 of 66)
Oops. I was remembering Half-blood Prince, chapter 16, not a Rowling interview. Sorry.

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Chemyst - Aug 29, 2007 7:18 pm (#46 of 66)
Draco is home for Easter. We later learn Ginny does not return to Hogwarts after Easter because her entire family went into hiding after Ron was seen with Harry at the Malfoy's. . . . Did any of the previous books have the students go home for Easter?

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TomProffitt - Aug 30, 2007 4:38 am (#47 of 66)
The Easter break is mentioned in at least one other book (and probably more) but I don't recall specifically, though. It was never stated that students had an option to go home. Harry, of course, never went home for Easter break so we haven't noticed it before.

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Phelim Mcintyre - Aug 31, 2007 12:51 am (#48 of 66)
TomProffit, the Easter break is mentioned in most books in passing where Seamus, Hermione or another moan about exams.

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Chemyst - Aug 31, 2007 3:21 am (#49 of 66)
...so, instead of kids staying and studying as usual, the kids went home for Easter this year. I suppose just having the Carrows there was enough incentive to leave; but if I were a bigger Snape fan I'd suggest he sent them home as an act of "mercy," Ha, ha, ha!

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kingdolohov - Sep 15, 2007 7:53 pm (#50 of 66)
I guess the story wouldn't have been as interesting, but why on earth didn't the Trio take care of Yaxley or Bellatrix when they had the chance? When they escaped from the Ministry, they were three-on-one with Yaxley, yet none of them thought of Stunning him, just of getting out of there. Of course taking Yaxley with them was necessary so they couldn't return to Grimmauld Place, but come on.

This time at least, they were in immediate danger of Voldemort arriving. But couldn't Harry at least have hurt Bellatrix to avenge Sirius at least a little? She was unarmed. It also would have saved Dobby. But like I said, that wasn't the plan.

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Joanna Lupin - Sep 16, 2007 4:33 am (#51 of 66)
Bellatrix still had a knife so she wasn't exactly unarmed. And as you said, Voldemort was coming, Hermione was unconscious, and Griphood was severely injured. To top it all, Harry (at this point) was above such mundane things as revenge. He was much too noble, and that prevented his soul being maimed at any point in the war against Voldemort.

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kingdolohov - Sep 16, 2007 7:40 am (#52 of 66)
I'm not talking about killing her. I wouldn't expect that. But holding a Muggle weapon does not defend oneself against a wand. It's no different than being disarmed in the Wizarding world when against someone with a wand. Even a witch as talented as Bellatrix can't block a spell with a knife. And since her sister and nephew were disarmed, and Greyback unconscious, she was quite vulnerable.

I know in this situation they had to get out of there, and it's just me wishing Dobby didn't die, but the knife would not have protected Bellatrix from a Stunner.

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Joanna Lupin - Sep 16, 2007 9:27 am (#53 of 66)
Following your argument, Harry is too noble to attack someone defenseless. LOL Though I wish Harry disarmed her with Expelliarmus. Dobby's death did shake me.

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kingdolohov - Sep 16, 2007 9:30 am (#54 of 66)
I don't know, it looked like Harry would have attacked baby-head DE in the DoM battle if Hermione hadn't told him not to hurt a baby, lol.

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Joanna Lupin - Sep 16, 2007 9:44 am (#55 of 66)
It was two years ago! Since then, Harry had matured and witnessed enough cruelty to understand that cruelty breeds only more cruelty. LOL

Notice that Harry never (I don't recall?) attacks first, but only defends himself/others.

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haymoni - Sep 17, 2007 4:11 pm (#56 of 66)
Harry also had to Apparate out of there - something he isn't very good at doing - or at least isn't comfortable doing.

I don't think he wanted to hang around there one moment more than he had to.

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Luna Logic - Sep 22, 2007 11:29 pm (#57 of 66)
Yes. But a Bounding spell could have given him time to Apparate, and would have neutralised Bellatrix for the moment.

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Joanna Lupin - Sep 23, 2007 2:32 am (#58 of 66)
Under pressure people don't usually consider all possibilities, do they? They wanted to get hell out of there.

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Choices - Sep 23, 2007 9:46 am (#59 of 66)
That always reminds me of Harry in GOF, stuck in the stairs and he had dropped the egg and the map and here came Filch and Snape. He had just successfully learned summoning charms for the first task, but did he think to use a summoning charm to get the map or the egg? Nope. I guess he was too scared to think of that.

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Joanna Lupin - Sep 23, 2007 9:51 am (#60 of 66)
Exactly my thoughts, Choices.

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PeskyPixie - Sep 23, 2007 9:55 am (#61 of 66)
Harry has never really been a 'thinker'; he acts with his heart.

I was actually amazed with Hermione's swift thinking in this entire book.

In this chapter, specifically, as soon as the Taboo is broken and the trio is surrounded, she realizes that escape will be difficult and a stinging hex on Harry is the only way to save him for the moment and buy them some time.

At Malfoy Manor, she keeps lying while being tortured ... wow, she really amazes me.

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kingdolohov - Sep 23, 2007 7:24 pm (#62 of 66)
I guess it's just me trying to put myself into Harry's shoes. Although I don't think I would have let Yaxley or Bellatrix surive to the final battle, I'm certainly not Harry.

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PeskyPixie - Sep 24, 2007 6:01 pm (#63 of 66)
kingdolohov, I know what you mean. Sometimes it's hard to put oneself into Harry's place and think like him. I'm afraid he's far more noble than I can hope to be.

If I were up against a Dark Lord I would be taking out as many of his lieutenants as possible before the final battle. Even if I couldn't AK them I would make the effort to at least put them under the Imperius curse, take away their wands and lock them away until the war was over and they could be safely put into Azkaban. Then again, all Sorting Hats have put me into either Slytherin or Ravenclaw so I clearly do not understand how the Griffindor mind functions!

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Solitaire - Jan 31, 2009 10:54 am (#64 of 66)
This is really more of a response to Me and My Shadow's post on the Chamber of Secrets reread thread. It just dealt too much with DH to put there.

Shadow, I think Draco's behavior on the platform in the epilogue indicates that some kind of change has taken place in him. Weren't he and his family standing apart from everyone (no book handy)? That kind of mirrors the Malfoys at Hogwarts, following the battle, doesn't it?

Even though I've never liked Draco or any of the Malfoys, I think the things they witnessed in DH must have done something to them. Draco saw Dumbledore apparently murdered by Snape, just as Harry had done. I'm betting that this was his first witness of an actual murder, and it had to have made an impression. (Remember how Cedric's death affected Harry at first?)

Back in their own home, they are literally prisoners of Voldemort. Narcissa sees her own sister in all her ugliness and violence. I suspect Narcissa has always been rather "removed" from the ugliness of the DE ways, and the reality has come as a shock to her. They are more than willing to sell out Harry and the kids (despite Draco's unwillingness to admit anything), but so was Xenophilius Lovegood, and people are able to give him a pass on that one.

Why did Draco not speak up when we know he recognized the Trio? Did he honestly believe, in the depths of his heart, that Harry had a chance against Voldemort ... a chance to set everyone free? Is it possible that he was beginning to recognize that the Trio were more than just bumbling kids ... that they might be the only hope of escape from Voldemort's tyranny? After all, they had outsmarted the Ministry, and Harry and Hermione had "defied Voldemort" in GH. Even he would have had to admit to himself that three of his peers were putting up a pretty good fight against the current government of the WW. What if they were successful ... and Harry prevailed? Was that why he hesitated, because he did not want their blood on his hands?

I would like to think that the events of HBP and DH had a sobering effect on the Malfoy family and taught them some lessons they'd never learned before. But perhaps I'm being too hopeful.

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me and my shadow 813 - Jan 31, 2009 1:46 pm (#65 of 66)
Thanks for your post, Solitaire. I agree and would like to hear others' opinions on it. I think Draco was changed for sure by the end of DH. One of my favourite quotes that I've been wanting to use at hangman is Ron in the final battle yelling to Draco something like that's the second time we've saved your life today!

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Solitaire - Jan 31, 2009 9:32 pm (#66 of 66)
LOL What I like about that comment is the fact that it is delivered with a punch from under the Invisibility Cloak, if memory serves ...

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[Mona]

Kip Carter - Jul 19, 2007 5:11 am
Edited Jul 25, 2007 12:36 am
This thread is to discuss Only Chapter Twenty-Four - The Wandmaker of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows!


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Anna L. Black - Jul 21, 2007 3:07 pm (#1 of 51)
OK, that's not fair. Of course, Voldemort wouldn't be playing it fair, but really, DD's tomb?

To rehash some previous events:
Interesting how she (JKR) killed Wormtail. Again, we were so close (that little life-debt), but so far (regarding how it would play - hardly in a big battle...). I have to say that I didn't really understand it - was he obliged to kill himself? Harry thought of that as if it was something DD had done, and that confused me...

Oh, and what's with the mirror? Who has it? If it weren't for the blue eye, I'd say Snape (I just want him to be on the good side... We haven't seen him enough in this book).

And when will we lear what really happened in GH 16 years ago? Voldemort's account was basically as we knew it.

Anyway, I think I'll go to bed now. I'm afraid my dreams will be somewhat messy....

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TomProffitt - Jul 21, 2007 7:11 pm (#2 of 51)
Remember who made the Silver Hand, it was Lord Voldemort. When Wormtail honored the life-debt he betrayed Voldemort and the hand killed Pettigrew, he did not kill himself. At least, that's my interpretation.

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wynnleaf - Jul 21, 2007 8:46 pm (#3 of 51)
This is one of my favorite chapters, especially for Harry's dealing with Dobby's death, burying him without magic, and the tombstone he creates. I love the way JKR has Dobby's death and the burial be a pivotal point for Harry's decisions.

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Finn BV - Jul 21, 2007 9:16 pm (#4 of 51)
Sorry Tom, I don't quite understand. Do you mean to suggest that he betrayed LV by using the silver hand, because the hand is essentially Voldemort's "part" (not in the Horcrux sense) of Wormtail?

Dobby's death? the only moment I actually cried in the book?

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MickeyCee3948 - Jul 21, 2007 9:24 pm (#5 of 51)
I have to agree with you TomProffitt. Wormtail's moment of weakness which allowed Harry to get away was all that the hand needed to turn on him. Guess Tom had a nice curse on it to prevent Wormtail from turning aganist him.

Mickey

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Anna L. Black - Jul 21, 2007 9:56 pm (#6 of 51)
Yeah, that was what I figured out at first, but Harry's thought were all about Dumbledore and that confused me... I'll read it again when I'll finish the book

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Good Evans - Jul 22, 2007 2:49 am (#7 of 51)
Oh why did Dobby have to go? but the dealing with the digging of the grave, the beautiful marking that Harry left (here lies Dobby, a free elf) - tissues galore!

but I also found Griphooks watching of this and commenting to Harry interesting. Harry's actions speak so much larger than any words and promises, this alone is key to showing the "non wand carrying magical creatures" that there really is a change coming with wizards accepting and keen to overcome the arrogance that has been shown before. I am really happy with this detail that is important and I think really shows so much of Jo in Harry.

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Madam Pince - Jul 22, 2007 6:35 am (#8 of 51)
That's how I read it, MickeyCee. Voldemort had put a curse on the silver hand when he gave it to Pettigrew, so that if Pettigrew ever betrayed him, or even thought about betraying him, the hand would kill him. Not at all how I thought he'd die, but pretty satisfying overall, I think. Not really a life debt thing, and not what you could call a complete-change-of-heart-his-Gryffindor-heritage-coming-through thing either, but just a split second hesitation of thinking "maybe I should do the right thing," and he's toast.

I starting welling up when they put the socks and the knitted hat on Dobby's body, and then lost it when I read the epitaph Harry put on the headstone. That really stinks that Dobby's gone. Now I'm reallllly mad at Bellatrix -- she's a witch of a different letter. I'd have no problem "really meaning it" if I was throwing an AK her way!

I agree, wynnleaf, about how JKR made Dobby's death be the pivotal point in Harry's, well, almost his maturing. Now he's grown up. He's decisive, he's in charge, and he's in control of his emotions. Voldemort, watch out!

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Potteraholic - Jul 22, 2007 7:15 am (#9 of 51)
Madam Pine,

The socks and knitted hat did the same for me too, not that I wasn't upset enough already. Dobby's death didn't just help Harry mature, but Ron, too.

"Ron sat on the edge of the grave and stripped off his shoes and socks, which he placed upon the elf's bare feet."

Ron did this completely on his own, just by watching Harry wrap Dobby's jacket more snugly around him. Hermione would have been so proud of Mr. "emotional range of a teaspoon". Also love how Ron and Dean instinctively knew to help Harry dig by hand and not ask about using magic. Everyone's mautured so much since Year One.

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Madam Pince - Jul 22, 2007 7:23 am (#10 of 51)
You're right -- Ron in particular has really grown. From being scared of a couple little spiders back in CoS to standing up to Voldy's horcrux and destroying it back in Chapter 19! Wow! I'm quite proud of him.

One thing, do you suppose Ron put both his socks and his shoes on Dobby? Or did she just write "shoes" because Ron had to take his shoes off to get to his socks, obviously? For some reason, I was thinking Dobby wore socks but no shoes.

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Potteraholic - Jul 22, 2007 7:36 am (#11 of 51)
Madam Pince,

Many aoplogies for misspelling your name earlier.

About the shoes, I'm thinking they came off just to get to the socks. Remember how it was just one sock that Harry hid in the diary that freed Dobby from the Malfoy's? And all the socks that Hermione kintted for him? So this was, I guess, the last member of the Trio's sock tribute to Dobby. JM2K.

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Good Evans - Jul 22, 2007 8:01 am (#12 of 51)
I suppose they should have each taken off a sock! but it is quite fitting that for once Dobby had matching socks. it just did me in!

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mysweetdar - Jul 22, 2007 8:58 am (#13 of 51)
sob!* That really got me....they fully clothed him....and the writing on the stone! Die-Bella-die!!!!! Yes, the change is coming...

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Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 22, 2007 1:15 pm (#14 of 51)
Dobbie died a death he would have been proud of. Rest in peace my favourite house elf.

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Holly T. - Jul 23, 2007 6:59 am (#15 of 51)
I cried even harder about Dobby the second time I read it. I loved them putting the clothes on him, the inscription on the headstone, and digging without magic. I especially loved that Harry is finally able to control his mind. He grows up, right there, digging Dobby's grave. And Dobby was so brave--not under orders but of his own free will dying to save Harry Potter, who he loved so much.

I think it is significant how much Harry's actions impressed Griphook too.

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M A Grimmett - Jul 23, 2007 7:13 am (#16 of 51)
I was crushed about Dobby. So very sad and heroic! I was also pleased that Peter's repayment of his life-debt wasn't a big heroic gesture--it wuld have been out of place.

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Mare - Jul 23, 2007 11:57 am (#17 of 51)
But I still don't understand how Peter ended up in Gryffindor? "We sort to soon" Absolutely!

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Prefect Marcus - Jul 23, 2007 2:43 pm (#18 of 51)
Dobby's death was the only one that affected me in the entire book. It brought real tears to my eyes.

I only teared-up one other place. *Spoiler* Highlight to see: NOT MY DAUGHTER, YOU.... *end of spoiler*

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HungarianHorntail11 - Jul 23, 2007 3:56 pm (#19 of 51)
A stutter-step from Pettigrew rather than an outright bold maneuver to help Harry is along the lines of his personality. He is self-serving.

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I Am Used Vlad - Jul 24, 2007 10:12 am (#20 of 51)
I didn't like the way Pettigrew died. Perhaps I was expecting him to take out Greyback.

Dobby's death was sad, but I was more saddened by another character's death later in the book.

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Madam Pince - Jul 24, 2007 12:59 pm (#21 of 51)
I teared up at that phrase, too, Marcus.

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gankomon - Jul 24, 2007 1:01 pm (#22 of 51)
While I was pleased at how Pettigrew's death was handled, I was extremely unhappy to see Dobby's death. But on the other hand, as has been mentioned by other posters, his death is what shows Harry in his new role as adult and leader. His maturity, his strenth, and his caring for Dobby, shown by the digging of the grave and the carving on the stone is where the last vestiges of childhood drop from him. Before there were still echoes. After Dobby's death saving him, Harry moves forward as an adult and as the unquestioned leader of the Resistance. And yes, it finally showed Ron as a man as well. His actions giving Dobby his socks was wonderful. But it was still incredibly moving.

"Here lies Dobby, a free elf". Indeed.

Regards,

gankomon

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legolas returns - Jul 25, 2007 1:55 pm (#23 of 51)
I was so upset when Dobby died. I had to take a break to calm down. When I turned the page and the funeral bit just started me off again. Even thinking about Dobby brings a few tears to my eyes.

He always worshipped Harry and to forfit his life saving his hero was completely fitting way to go.

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Allison R - Jul 25, 2007 4:47 pm (#24 of 51)
I think you're absolutely right-- Harry buried the last echoes of his childhood in that rough, hand-hewn grave with Dobby.

The tenderness with which Harry wrapped him up, Ron took off his own socks to place on his feet (and since a sock is what freed Dobby, surely socks were extra-treasured by him), and Dean put a wollen hat on him just about did me in the second time through. It touched me the first time, but I managed to get through the chapter dry-eyed. Not so on my first re-read! I ached for all of them and mourned their losses.

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Solitaire - Jul 25, 2007 8:04 pm (#25 of 51)
I did more than just tear up when I read this chapter. I cried and cried. I'm seriously choking up now, just reading and posting about it. Dobby was so full of goodness and bravery and selfless love for Harry. Murdering Dobby just made Bella that much more evil and disgusting in my eyes.

Solitaire

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Prefect Marcus - Jul 25, 2007 8:53 pm (#26 of 51)
Solitaire,

In Bella's defense (I can't believe I just said that) Bella just chucked a knife at the swirling mass that was Dobby and Harry disapparating. I doubt she was specifically trying to kill Dobby.

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Solitaire - Jul 25, 2007 8:55 pm (#27 of 51)
No, I suspect she was trying to kill Harry ... but that doesn't make her any nicer. Actually, she was just ticked off, I think, and threw that knife out of temper.

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M A Grimmett - Jul 26, 2007 6:11 am (#28 of 51)
Solitaire, I think this act highlights her willingness to do anything and her tendency to act heedlessly when balked. Not very mature, but her reactions are what make her useful to LV, I suspect.

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Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 27, 2007 1:26 am (#29 of 51)
I cried over Hedwig and over Dobby. But doing a re-read I realised that Dobbie's death (and some that follow) completely put pay to our theory about those who are wished Happy Birthday on Jo's website survive.

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Choices - Jul 27, 2007 11:29 am (#30 of 51)
The whole Dobby dying thing and the burial just tore me up. The symbolism of them giving Dobby all the clothes - in death Dobby was totally free. So sad.

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Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 28, 2007 1:26 pm (#31 of 51)
Its too bad House Elves can't be Hogwarts students. Dobby belonged in Gryffindor. He was so terrified to be back at the Malfoy's He saved them all in spite of his fear. What strength of character he showed by breaking away from a life of fear and servitude to be a free elf. LPO

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haymoni - Jul 28, 2007 8:07 pm (#32 of 51)
The first time I read it - so quickly to get to the end - I thought Dobby had been slain with Gryffindor's sword. I actually called out loud, "No!"

It felt strange to actually be relieved that Bella had killed him. I wonder if Dobby took the blow for Harry.

Kudos to those who felt Voldy had taken Ollivander.

Very, very disappointed that Peter's hand is not "the hand of the Other", but thought how clever Jo was - certainly Voldy would give Peter a hand that would kill him if he ever showed mercy to Harry - waht a kind Master!

I need to re-read GOF to see if Voldy hints at the final use of the hand.

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Allison R - Jul 28, 2007 8:22 pm (#33 of 51)
Haymoni, I thought the behavior of the hand was very Voldy, too-- no gift from him ever comes without strings attached, and he reserves the right to yank those strings when it best suits him, not the recipient of his "gift".

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Oruma - Jul 29, 2007 11:59 pm (#34 of 51)
Speaking of Bella staying at Malfoy's...where's her husband? Rodolphus and Rabastan are hardly ever mentioned in HBP and DH. While this is not definite proof of anything, it makes you wonder how close Bella and Tom are...*smirks*

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Solitaire - Jul 31, 2007 5:58 pm (#35 of 51)
Perhaps they've been killed--surely the DEs must have suffered casualties, as well--or maybe the Lestrange boys are out carousing with some of the Snatcher groups. Bella doesn't seem to have ever had much use for her husband. Perhaps hers was ... not exactly an "arranged" marriage, but a marriage which was "encouraged" or "promoted" by the Black and Lestrange families. Since she didn't have children (Can you imagine her as a mother? The mind reels), she apparently wasn't all that concerned about carrying on the pure blood lines. Then again, she did spend many of her child-bearing years in prison, and the years before that were taken up with murder and torture. Priorities ... *sigh*

Solitaire

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Luna Logic - Aug 1, 2007 4:22 am (#36 of 51)
In chapter 4 or 5, we learn that a Lestrange has been wounded during the attack of the seven Potter(which Lestrange?)

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M A Grimmett - Aug 1, 2007 6:07 am (#37 of 51)
I think Bella worships LV too much to really have a good marriage.

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Suzan - Aug 1, 2007 7:47 am (#38 of 51)
I think Bella was aiming specifically at Dobby. Dobby's chest would have been at about the same level as Harry's knees, so I don't think she was aiming at Harry. And Narcissa had just screamed something about Dobby being the one who made the chandelier drop, so Bella would be angry with Dobby. Bella also had stated that it was for Voldemort alone to finish off Harry, and I doubt she would risk incurring his wrath and displeasure by inadvertently killing Harry.

I really like how Jo described Harry's growing ability to control the mental link to Voldemort's mind, how he mastered himself and how he eventually has to "give in" to the pain and the invasion. Very descriptive.

I didn't cry the first time I read this chapter, but I did cry the second time. I guess I was too busy trying to get to the end the first time to really pay attention to the emotional impact.

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M A Grimmett - Aug 1, 2007 9:03 am (#39 of 51)
The point about Dobby's height is excellent, Suzan--I hadn't figured that out, and it really makes sense.

I also felt much more emotion on rereading it. I was do keen on getting to the end that a lot of the emotion didn't have time to surface on first reading!

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Mediwitch - Aug 1, 2007 9:57 am (#40 of 51)
I completely agree about Harry's growth in this chapter. One of the little details I really loved was when Harry realized that "Help will always be given at Hogwarts to those who ask for it."

It was fascinating to read about Harry, the Seeker, coming to grips with understanding that Dumbledore had made it so difficult for Harry so he would realize "he had to know but not seek". I'm trying not to be spoilerish for later, so that may be too murky...

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Columbine Fairy - Aug 1, 2007 2:54 pm (#41 of 51)
Why? Why Dobby? "Always the innocent are the first victims". Dobby and Harry first became friends when Dobby was trying to save Harry's life (with mixed results!) I'm sure Dobby would have been quite proud to die for Harry, but it's just so sad - sadder, at least for me, than any other deaths, because in this case Dobby died for a cause that had no effect for him whatsoever - as a free elf, it wouldnt have mattered to him who was controlling the world, he only died because he beleived in Harry. Poor, poor brave Dobby...

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Oruma - Aug 2, 2007 12:01 am (#42 of 51)
LunaLogic,

Just got a quick look...yes Tonks mentioned she and Ron "definitely injured Rodolphus".

Continuing on the Bellatrix = arrange marriage idea, if her husband was the Lestrange that studied with Tom Riddle in Hogwarts in the same time (as mentioned in HBP), then their age difference could be around 3 decades. So it is quite likely that it IS an arranged marriage, and that fertility may be an issue here, thus the lack of offsprings...

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Solitaire - Aug 3, 2007 11:41 am (#43 of 51)
Rodolphus and Rabastan were brothers, and the Lexicon places them and Bella in Slytherin in the 70s ... which would probably make them a few years older than Lucius Malfoy. Another Lestrange was at Hogwarts when Riddle was there (HBP Ch. 17). While he is presumed to be their father, the Lex says it could have been Rodolphus or Rabastan. I suppose it is possible to have a broad space of years between siblings. There are around 11 years between Bill and Ginny, and I have a friend with 11 siblings who is 20 years older than her youngest sibling. That is a whole generation!

Solitaire

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rambkowalczyk - Aug 8, 2007 2:41 pm (#44 of 51)
My first reaction to Peter's death was Is that it? A sad way to die when you think about it. It's not like he really changed or anything.

Dobby's death was a shock and I think Bella meant to kill him. She yells at Cissy to kill him, calls him a dirty little monkey etc.

I thought burying Dobby by digging by hand was a little contrived. Dumbledore's grave wasn't dug by hand was it? On the other hand Harry did need to take time and grieve for Dobby and digging his grave allowed him to do so. It was neat how Ron gave up his socks without being prompted by Hermione.

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Choices - Aug 12, 2007 3:44 pm (#45 of 51)
Wandlore is interesting and Ollivander really does "remember every wand I ever made".

I just knew when Harry was named godfather, that it was a bad omen for Lupin and Tonks.

It was interesting to note that there were now shops devoted to the Dark Arts in Diagon Alley - no longer restricted to Nocturne Alley.

Loved Ron's name - Dragomir Despard.

Poor dragon - I'm so glad he escaped.

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Caput Draconis - Aug 15, 2007 11:11 pm (#46 of 51)
I've never really been that fond of Dobby - I mean I appreciated what he did for Harry throughout the series but I never thought I'd get emotional if he was to die. I came very close to tears on my reread (in a quite public place, haha) especially with that 'stars he could see no more' thing (I'm at work, can't get the quote).

Question, were Dobby's jerking fingers an involuntary thing due to being stabbed by a crazy Death Eater, or was Dobby's final act to get Harry safely to Bill as they Disapperated?

Loved the grave. I felt like I was right there with Harry sweating and grieving for everyone I've lost, and steeling myself for the rest of the journey. Made me want to go and dig a big hole.

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Potteraholic - Aug 16, 2007 9:43 am (#47 of 51)

Caput Draconis,
I was never really fond of Dobby either - the movie version didn't help much - but his death scene got to me too, on the first read! I was reading DH in the park and someone sitting on the bench next to me asked if I was okay. The whole death and burial scene was very moving, and I loved Ron taking off his socks and Dean giving up his hat. No one asked them to do that, they just knew it was the right thing to do.

Question, were Dobby's jerking fingers an involuntary thing due to being stabbed by a crazy Death Eater, or was Dobby's final act to get Harry safely to Bill as they Disapperated? I thought it was the latter. That fit with the idea that Dobby would do anything for Harry Potter.

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haymoni - Aug 17, 2007 5:26 pm (#48 of 51)
The jerking made me wonder if Dobby had somehow taken the knife for Harry, but Bella would have been aiming at Harry's knees for that to be!

João Paulo Costa - Aug 18, 2007 2:01 pm (#49 of 51)[/b]
It was a shock to me that Dobby had died, and had to read twice to make sure of it.

I perfectly understood the feelings of wanting to punish himself that drove Harry to dig the grave by shovel, instead of by magic.

What I found most moving was the eulogy that Luna tells: extremely simple but true, honest and to the point. Also the act of dressing Dobby just before they buried him, as well as the epitaph: Here lies Dobby, a free elf.

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haymoni - Aug 18, 2007 6:42 pm (#50 of 51)
I just re-read that part today. I thought it ironic that Luna was the one who closed Dobby's eyes.

She's the one that sees the most.

Also her eyes are often described as rather large and Dobby's are huge.

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Madam Pince - Nov 11, 2007 11:11 am (#51 of 51)
I need to re-read GOF to see if Voldy hints at the final use of the hand. --haymoni

It was ages ago now that this question was posed, but for what it's worth, in GoF, right after Voldy gives Pettigrew his new silver hand and Pettigrew falls all over himself thanking him for it, Voldemort says "May your loyalty never waver again, Wormtail..."

***Cue dramatic "this-is-a-clue" music*** Dum-dum-DUM....

(In retrospect, it seems colossally stupid of Pettigrew not to have suspected something. Well, of course, maybe he did suspect but couldn't know for sure, and his split-second hesitation was knee-jerk and couldn't really be helped...)

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[Mona]

Kip Carter - Jul 19, 2007 5:12 am
Edited Jul 25, 2007 12:35 am
This thread is to discuss Only Chapter Twenty-Five - Shell Cottage of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows!


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Ms Hagrid - Jul 22, 2007 7:09 am (#1 of 16)
I was very impressed with Bill Weasley in this chapter - he reminded me very much of both Dumbledore and Lupin in the way he is able to empathize with and respect a very different way of looking at the world.

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freshwater - Jul 23, 2007 11:31 am (#2 of 16)
Excellent point, Ms Hagrid....this is the first truly sympathetic account we've had of goblin behavior. And I like the emphasis on how the goblins' behavior is entirely consistent with how they think and how they view things differently than wizards.

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Mare - Jul 23, 2007 1:08 pm (#3 of 16)
Jo is a bit old fashioned... Harry feels sorry about Bill, George, Fred and Mr Weasley not being able to go to work. And what about Fleur? She was a triwizard champion, best of her school, surely she isn't supposed to be doing only the dishes? Waiting patiently till her husband comes home?

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Holly T. - Jul 23, 2007 4:59 pm (#4 of 16)
Maybe she hadn't had time to get a full-time job yet--she was only part-time at Gringott's to work on her English, then all the wedding plans, etc.

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Solitaire - Jul 23, 2007 7:01 pm (#5 of 16)
Where is she going to work, anyway? Gringotts? Not safe anymore. The Ministry? I don't think so. Weasleys' Wizard Wheezes? Right! Besides, she has all those wedding thank you notes to write! Perhaps they felt keeping a "safe house" was important "work" for the Order. I do.

Solitaire

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gankomon - Jul 25, 2007 8:38 am (#6 of 16)
Well said, Solitaire. I completely agree. And kudos to Bill, I would like to see more of him, as he seems to combine the best qualities of the entire Weaseley clan. Brains, humor, charm, leadership- Bill has the whole package. No wonder the rest of them look up to him...

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Choices - Jul 27, 2007 11:33 am (#7 of 16)
She was right there as a "Harry" when they moved Harry from the Dursleys. I think she is in on the action and doing more than just the dishes. She is, after all, still on her honeymoon. :-)

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legolas returns - Jul 27, 2007 11:37 am (#8 of 16)
Great honeymoon that-being trapped in a house just after being married and having to put up with guests.

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Solitaire - Jul 31, 2007 6:35 pm (#9 of 16)
Well, Fleur did seem pretty able as a nurse/healer. Didn't she tend to Griphook, Ollivander, and the others who were injured? I still think that keeping a "safe house" for Order members is very important "work" in this war. Bill and Fleur may have been "stuck" at Shell Cottage, but as Choices said, the Weasleys are on their honeymoon. Besides, it seems to me that Harry and the others are keeping them plenty busy, as they were there for a few weeks! Remus dropped in while they were there, to announce Teddy's birth ... so I expect others were coming and going at times, too.

Solitaire

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Suzan - Aug 1, 2007 7:27 am (#10 of 16)
Dittos, Solitaire. Work performed at home is as important as work perfomed in an office or store - particularly during wartime.

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Mediwitch - Aug 1, 2007 10:01 am (#11 of 16)
Hmm...terrible honeymoon, stuck in a cottage by the sea as newlyweds...yeah, I'd hate that.

I LOVE that Teddy Lupin is a Metamorphmagus! One of the few things I theorized before the release was that there would be something to do with a Metamorphmagi. Of course, I had no clue what, but this was great.

Luna is really informative, under all the extraneous bizarre beliefs.

Harry as Teddy's godfather - awwww! I love when he thought he was setting out to be as reckless a godfather for Teddy as Sirius was for him.

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Solitaire - Aug 1, 2007 11:06 pm (#12 of 16)
Mediwitch, that thought of Harry's, about being as reckless as Sirius, caught me, as well. The fact that he actually thinks of Sirius as reckless on his own--and then wonders if he is being reckless, as well--is a testament to Harry's personal growth in this book.

Solitaire

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rambkowalczyk - Aug 8, 2007 2:57 pm (#13 of 16)
The idea of Goblin ownership sorta reminds me of the Native American idea that land can't be 'owned'.

But I wonder if this idea is held mainly because Goblins aren't allowed to use wands.

Bill and Fleur got married in August and it's now around April. That's some honeymoon isn't it?

I like Bill as well. Ron was able to go to him when needed didn't he?

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azi - Aug 8, 2007 3:12 pm (#14 of 16)
Don't they live at Shell Cottage full-time, as in it's their home? Or am I missing something, like a reference to them not having a real honeymoon?

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Choices - Aug 8, 2007 3:18 pm (#15 of 16)
I think often in times of war, such frivelous things as honeymoons have to be put aside. Honeymoons are considered to last the entire first year of a marriage, and I'm sure they did have some private time while making their home at Shell Cottage, even with Voldemort on the loose.

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Holly T. - Aug 20, 2007 10:51 am (#16 of 16)
Forgive me if I'm in the wrong chapter--I'm close--I've been listening to the audiobook so it's difficult to go back and see what chapter I'm in.

Anyway, I just love Ron. "Goblins aren't exactly fluffly little bunnies, are they?" LOL.

Editing to add--I must have missed that line when I read (or was still too upset about Dobby). Anyway, when I heard it it cracked me up.

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[Mona]

Kip Carter - Jul 19, 2007 5:17 am
Edited Jul 25, 2007 12:37 am
This thread is to discuss Only Chapter Twenty-Six - Gringotts of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows!


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Madam Pince - Jul 22, 2007 8:27 am (#1 of 41)
So the Bloomsbury kids' cover did show Gringotts instead of the RoR, and it was a goblin instead of Dobby on Harry's back.

Sigh... two more opportunities for me to be wrong, wrong, wrong... yet again. ***still grumbling that it looks way more like a house-elf than a goblin to me...***

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Chemyst - Jul 23, 2007 5:58 am (#2 of 41)
So between the dragon's near-blindness and the thick steely hide that kept it from feeling things that might be crawling on its back, this dragon didn't know the trio was even there? And it stopped only because it was thirsty? What is this? Fiction?

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Nymphadora - Jul 23, 2007 9:19 am (#3 of 41)
Haha Chemyst, I kept wondering too, but maybe the Trio was better off for it. Poor dragon, she never will find her kin...

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 24, 2007 8:58 am (#4 of 41)
"What is this? Fiction?" And you thought it was what genre?

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Madam Pince - Jul 24, 2007 1:01 pm (#5 of 41)
ROFL, Chemyst! (...says the person making fine distinctions between the physical appearances of goblins vs. house-elves...)

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Finn BV - Jul 25, 2007 8:03 pm (#6 of 41)
"What is this? Fiction?" And you thought it was what genre? --TBE

Perhaps a biography?

To keep this post on topic: Did we ever find out what type of dragon it was? Or is it up to our imagination?

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Allison R - Jul 25, 2007 8:08 pm (#7 of 41)
Finn, although she describes several different attributes of the dragon, I don't think she ever does name the breed. I just went back and looked at the chapter and it is only referred to as "the dragon".

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Choices - Jul 27, 2007 11:39 am (#8 of 41)
I think it was a "blind" dragon, and whatever breed it was doesn't matter. I'm sure it was so glad to get out of there and be free. Imagine being chained up for all those years and blind on top of that. Poor dragon - I wish he could have gone to Hagrid who would have loved and cared for him.

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Luna Logic - Jul 29, 2007 1:13 am (#9 of 41)
Perhaps he does, finally...

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Mediwitch - Aug 1, 2007 10:03 am (#10 of 41)
I wonder what happened to Travers after he hid in the crack of the wall? I hope he came out, or someone found him!

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Esther Rose - Aug 1, 2007 10:14 am (#11 of 41)
He's a death eater. Voldemort probably summoned him for the war against Hogwarts.

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icthestrals - Aug 1, 2007 11:55 am (#12 of 41)
Has anyone else noticed how many people/beasts Harry is saving on his quest? He saved the muggleborns at the inquest at the ministry, Ollivander and Luna at the Malfoys and now the dragon at Gringotts.

Cool.

Did anyone watch the Dateline NBC special on Harry Potter Sunday night? Jo Rowling was being interviewed and said that Harry saved her! (Meaning the sale of her books have provided security for her and her family.)

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Oruma - Aug 2, 2007 12:07 am (#13 of 41)
Mediwitch,

Travers was mentioned again later on.

icthestrals,

Don't forget Dean and Griphook.

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Holly T. - Aug 2, 2007 7:09 am (#14 of 41)
icthestrals, well, Harry does have a "saving people thing." :-)

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icthestrals - Aug 6, 2007 4:11 am (#15 of 41)
I knew there were others! Didn't have my book handy.

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rambkowalczyk - Aug 9, 2007 5:30 am (#16 of 41)
It seems as though Harry's plans aren't the most brilliant. It didn't occur to him that Bellatrix's wand would have been reported stolen. But he is good at thinking on his feet.

Actually Hermione has also at times been good at last minute thinking: swelling Harry's face when about to be captured by snatchers, the cushioning charm when the cart broke up, though at times she can panic and freeze.

Harry could have come up with a solution that might have been acceptable to Griphook. He could have offered to pay for the sword after the Goblin helped him get into Gringotts.

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TomProffitt - Aug 9, 2007 5:53 am (#17 of 41)
Harry could have come up with a solution that might have been acceptable to Griphook. He could have offered to pay for the sword after the Goblin helped him get into Gringotts. --- rambkowalczyk

I don't think so. It was just plain extortion. Griphook knew that Harry had no choice but to enter Gringotts (he didn't know why), and he knew Harry had no choice but to give him whatever he wanted to get in. Griphook would have settled for nothing less than the promise of the Sword.

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megfox* - Aug 9, 2007 6:24 am (#18 of 41)
Griphook also said in response to Ron's inquiry about how much money he wanted that he didn't want gold, he already had enough of it. So they couldn't have paid for the sword - which, incidentally, is probably priceless, even if it wasn't considered "stolen" by the goblins.

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Madam Pince - Aug 17, 2007 10:00 pm (#19 of 41)
Yes, I don't think paying for the sword would cut it. Clearly the goblins don't think "buying" something goblin-made has any validity -- they think it still belongs to the goblins regardless.

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freshwater - Aug 19, 2007 9:47 am (#20 of 41)
You are right --as usual **wink**grin**-- Madame P., to a point, when you say "goblins don't think "buying" something goblin-made has any validity". It does have validity to them...but only temporarily. The death of the owner apparently ends the transaction in their minds.

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tandaradei - Aug 20, 2007 12:41 pm (#21 of 41)
So ... who should be the owner of the sword now???

The Sorting Hat will soon "remove" it from Griphook and give it to Neville. But the Sorting Hat works by Wizard magic, not goblin.

At least by Sorting Hat standards, I assume that Griphook was wrong in assuming goblin pieces are only rented; and thus that purchasing such actually permenantly makes such items those of the possessor.

Too, Harry willingly agreed to the deal, which makes me wonder if Harry had the "authority" to bargain the sword -- much like how Scrimgeour said Dumbledore had no authority to give Harry the sword in his will.

I assume the real owner of the sword, with authority, is the Sorting Hat?

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PeskyPixie - Sep 24, 2007 11:17 am (#22 of 41)
This chapter annoys me, as once again Polyjuice potion comes to the rescue. This is the fifth time in the series that it's been used as a major plot point.

Then again, I'm not a big fan of the whole Gringotts adventure. The story picks up again for me from 'The Final Hiding Place'.

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Joanna Lupin - Sep 24, 2007 11:40 am (#23 of 41)
Would be handy to have a stock of it, no doubt. I liked this chapter very much; it nicely shows Harry rising to the leadership standard he would reach in the final battle.

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PeskyPixie - Sep 24, 2007 11:50 am (#24 of 41)
Oh, I liked that aspect of it very much. I just think that JKR is so creative that she could have created a different scenario where Harry gets to exhibit his leadership just the same.

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freshwater - Sep 29, 2007 5:51 am (#25 of 41)
I can understand your desire for some new tidbit of JKR's creativity, PeskyPixie, but --in the final book of the series-- it does make sense to incorporate all the details/tricks/tips/weapons that have been introduced in all the previous work. Allows the reader a sort of "Ah,yes...that's how that could be applied here" response.

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PeskyPixie - Sep 29, 2007 12:23 pm (#26 of 41)
I understood the logic behind JKR's choices, freshwater. This chapter was just a tad too clunky for my taste. It's not Jo at her best.

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Madam Pince - Oct 9, 2007 3:00 pm (#27 of 41)
It is sort of disappointing to have Polyjuice Potion enter into things again, but I try to think of it as sort of the wizarding equivalent of learning, oh, let's say geometry. When you learn it in school it's all totally new and (maybe) exciting. Then you think OK, fine, well I'm done with that! But then there are lots of other opportunities throughout your life where you end up using that geometry (or at least the logical thinking that proceeds from it.) Polyjuice is sort of like that -- a basic wizarding thing that isn't so glamorous maybe, but it's pretty darned useful in lots of scenarios.

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PeskyPixie - Oct 10, 2007 9:45 am (#28 of 41)
I tend to examine each book as a piece of literature rather than let my love of the HP world and characters intervene (there's my Snapeishness again ) and bias my opinion. Polyjuice potion is overly redundant at this point in the saga. This is a novel after all, not a documentary about Snape's Potions class and its usefulness in day-to-day life in a war-torn magical world. If it works for someone, great. Personally, it does not work and I do not feel the need to justify its existence.

(I've just done a re-read of my post; honestly, it's not meant to sound quite so harsh ... )

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John Bumbledore - Oct 10, 2007 10:03 am (#29 of 41)
I was just passing through the thread (using Read New) but had to comment on what popped in my head about this...

Polyjuice sound like duct tape and WD-40 of the wizarding world. Or rather polyjuice is like a slim-jim (tool for unlocking a car door) and a screwdriver (for breaking the ignition key-lock) is to stealing a car. How about the use of full face makeup masks in the Mission Impossible TV series? So, in comparison, Jo's use of polyjuice is much less a crutch and her characters show both knowledge of it and use methods to thwart it's use.

Thoughts on the chapter in general:

This really wasn't * the trio at their finest hour (mentally); it was poor planning. Really, wasn't Harry's cloak more instrumental in their marginal success than the polyjuice?

* Edit to correct word choice.

John Bumbledore <)B^D?

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Madam Pince - Oct 10, 2007 11:22 am (#30 of 41)
Polyjuice sound like duct tape and WD-40 of the wizarding world.

LOL, John Bumbledore! That's exactly what I meant, but you said it so much better! Like duct tape, it's sort of over-used and boring, but indispensible nonetheless!

I completely understand what you were saying, though, PeskyPixie. Not to try to "explain it away," but it has often seemed to me that JKR defends things like this by saying (paraphrased, obviously) "it's a magical world, and it's my magical world, and in my world this is how things work, and so this is the way it is." Now if you ask me to tell you an exact quote where she says something like that, I can't; it's more of an amalgamation of my impressions based on various comments she's made about things over the years when she's questioned about specifics of how things work in the magical world. Just throwing that in there, but again, I totally understand what you were saying about feeling like it didn't really do anything for you.

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Luna Logic - Oct 11, 2007 11:38 pm (#31 of 41)
John Bumbledore : Polyjuice sound like duct tape and WD-40 of the wizarding world.
Madam Pince : Like duct tape, it's sort of over-used and boring, but indispensible nonetheless!
I am lost in wondering because I could not find what is duct tape (and WD-40 !)in my dictionnary! Something over-used, OK, boring, yes, but WHAT?

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valuereflection - Oct 12, 2007 12:26 pm (#32 of 41)
Luna Logic, look on the wikipedia.org website, under their entries for "Duct tape" and "WD-40." I was going to try to write a bit about the fascinating history of these products and their applications, but wikipedia.org did a better job. My father-in-law worked for the aerospace industry and uses WD-40 for all the applications described in that article. In addition, spraying WD-40 on a flying wasp will kill it quicker than spraying the wasp with Raid bug spray. :-)

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Luna Logic - Oct 13, 2007 9:53 am (#33 of 41)
Edited by Oct 13, 2007 10:59 am
valuereflexion : In addition, spraying WD-40 on a flying wasp will kill it quicker than spraying the wasp with Raid bug spray. :-)
More and more mysterious! Thanks, valuereflexion, I'm going to Wikipedia (a vague idea is forming herself in my head...).
Now back to Gringotts : I agree that the plan was very weak, and I have wondered about the amount of times (for or six weeks !) they had to think of it, the Trio all day long with Griphook in a tiny room...
(I don't think that when you decide to employ Duct tape" or "WD-40" you have to spend a month's long conference to talk about it )

edited : Read ! I must get those two miraculous items in my home!

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Chemyst - Oct 14, 2007 12:19 pm (#34 of 41)
I don't mind the use of polyjuice potion here since it was obtained from Mad-Eye's finite supply as a tool of the auror trade. If it were really as readily available as duct tape and could be purchased easily at the local Wiz-Mart, then I'd have had a problem with sloppy plotting. 'Just as I would have felt cheated if time-turners had been used again.

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PeskyPixie - Oct 14, 2007 1:23 pm (#35 of 41)
Uses of Poly-Juice Potion throughout HP series:

1. CoS: HRH use it to interrogate Malfoy

2. GoF: Barty Crouch Jr. uses it to impersonate Mad-Eye Moody

3. HBP: Crabbe and Goyle use it throughout the book to serve as lookouts for Malfoy

4. DH: 'The Seven Potters'

5. DH: at Bill and Fleur's wedding

6. DH: at the MoM

7. DH: 'Gringotts'

This is a tad too much PolyJuice Potion for my taste. I would've liked some creativity, especially at such a crucial moment in the story (i.e. finding a horcrux). Then again, the whole idea of the Dark Lord wishing for a bank account takes away from the magic for me. I understand it logically, but it really diminishes the mystical aura surrounding horcruxes. That's just my opinion. I realize that everyone else loves this chapter. I've re-read it after seeing others's posts, but it just gets worse for me with each read.

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Luna Logic - Oct 15, 2007 12:11 am (#36 of 41)
I do agree with Chemyst: I don't mind the use of polyjuice potion here since it was obtained from Mad-Eye's finite supply as a tool of the auror trade.
But I still don't understand why they had to spend four or six weeks "working" (wih four minds) on such a simple plan.

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haymoni - Oct 15, 2007 7:07 pm (#37 of 41)
COS made it seem as if Polyjuice was a rare, almost secret kind of potion.

It's use throughout the books makes it almost common.

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Holly T. - Oct 16, 2007 6:42 am (#38 of 41)
In COS Hermione and Harry still don't know that much about the wizarding world, add that to them not asking grownups for help and making the potion on their own, which of course seemed really difficult and unusual because they were 12, they really didn't have any background to know if it was used commonly or not. As for Ron, who might should at least have heard of it before, I will just guess that he wasn't paying attention.

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Mrs. Sirius - Oct 16, 2007 7:59 am (#39 of 41)
Holly, I'll go along with that. Although I was an inquisitive child, there was so much of the practical world that I did not know, bus or train routes, prices in stores. Given how Harry is described as being totally shuttled away by his aunt and uncle, I was surprised at how much he did know. I credited it to a better British education system.

Ron's not knowing, seemed very reasonable because we see Ron throughout the 7 books, not paying attention. I would say through easily the first half of DH Ron is not paying attention. He improves, and starts to catch on after he returns.

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Madam Pince - Oct 16, 2007 10:08 am (#40 of 41)
Luna Logic, a little joke over here in the U.S. is about men doing chores around the house using only two tools -- WD-40 and duct tape. If it is supposed to move and doesn't, use WD-40. If it is not supposed to move and does, then use duct tape. LOL!

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Luna Logic - Oct 17, 2007 12:32 pm (#41 of 41)
Thanks very much, Madam Pince- another intercultural lesson, because of the (too) common use of polyjuice in the Wizard World (and yes, LOL! for the joke... I am actually visualizing a U.S. man with duct tape in a hand and WD-40 in the other )

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Kip Carter - Jul 19, 2007 5:31 am
Edited Jul 25, 2007 12:38 am
This thread is to discuss Only Chapter Twenty-Seven - The Final Hiding Place of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows!


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The Artful Dodger - Jul 22, 2007 11:28 am (#1 of 15)
Was nobody surprised by Voldmeort's shock when he learned that his Hufflepuff Horcrux was stolen? He already knew that the diary had been destroyed, didn't he? Or am I imagining things? If not, why had this news such an impact on him? And why did he not check his remaining Horcruxes right after losing the first one? Why wait until another one was taken?

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MickeyCee3948 - Jul 22, 2007 11:36 am (#2 of 15)
He blamed Malfroy for losing the first one, so he thought his secret and the other horcrux's were still safe.

Mickey

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Solitaire - Jul 23, 2007 7:21 pm (#3 of 15)
Once again, Voldemort shows his arrogance. I doubt he thought anyone would ever figure out what the Diary was. Again, he has underestimated Dumbledore. In retrospect, I wonder if Horace Slughorn wasn't really hiding from Voldemort himself when we first meet him in HBP. Surely Voldy doesn't want that loose end--who knows all about his wicked plans--hanging around. Or do you think Voldemort has forgotten that conversation?

Solitaire

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M A Grimmett - Jul 24, 2007 7:01 am (#4 of 15)
I think Voldy's arrogant enough to think Sluggy would never give him up (and he didn't, not without extreme emotional pressure from Harry) out of fondness for Tom, or fear of what Tom became.

Of course, this could just be another loophole.

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Mediwitch - Jul 24, 2007 4:17 pm (#5 of 15)
Back in chapter 15, when Harry, Ron, and Hermione were discussing possible horcrux locations, Harry was sure there was one at Hogwarts, but Hermione dissuaded him. Well, it would have made a much shorter book if they had gone to Hogwarts sooner!

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Finn BV - Jul 25, 2007 8:20 pm (#6 of 15)
I was rather intrigued to come across this chapter title: we already had "A Place to Hide" in Chapter 9! I wouldn't say the references of both "Places" are linked, really, so what was the point of the repetition?

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I Am Used Vlad - Jul 27, 2007 9:50 am (#7 of 15)
Finn, you must be forgetting that "Slug" was in about half the chapter titles of HBP.

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freshwater - Jul 29, 2007 9:39 pm (#8 of 15)
Finn, I though ch. 9 was about a place for the trio to hide from the DE's, while this chapter was about a hiding place for a horcrux.

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Oruma - Jul 29, 2007 11:49 pm (#9 of 15)
It is the "Final Hiding Place" in two senses: both the last hidden Horcrux (Ravenclaw's diadem) and for Harry (from Voldemort).

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Mediwitch - Aug 1, 2007 4:33 pm (#10 of 15)
I've always enjoyed Ron's sense of humor, but he really gets me in this book..."I think they might have noticed we broke into Gringotts." It was great how this really cracked them all up!

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rambkowalczyk - Aug 9, 2007 5:46 am (#11 of 15)
This chapter seems to serve as the final lull before the storm. It's hard to believe that the final chapters all take place on this same day.

For some reason I'm relieved that the dragon was just an ordinary dragon not Norbert or an Animagus just an imprisoned dragon that was captured and used. I suppose it is symbolic that Harry is saving all magical creatures not just wizards and witches.

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haymoni - Aug 10, 2007 3:45 pm (#12 of 15)
But now I feel sorry for this poor blind dragon stumbling around!

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Luna Logic - Aug 11, 2007 12:27 am (#13 of 15)
haymoni - You are not alone- Neville also worries about the dragon :
' What did you do with the dragon?' (chapter 29, p. 461 Bloomsbury).

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haymoni - Aug 12, 2007 10:43 am (#14 of 15)
I'll keep company with Neville anytime!

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Luna Logic - Aug 12, 2007 10:59 am (#15 of 15)
In my imagination, Neville uses his next summer holidays to go to dragon's quest. When he finds the location of the dragon, he sends for Charlie and his colleagues. Then the dragon is transported to the Romania reserve.
Or, maybe, Hagrid manages to hold a little reserve of in own , near Hogwarts, for aged and blind dragon(s)?

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Kip Carter - Jul 19, 2007 5:32 am
Edited Jul 25, 2007 12:38 am
This thread is to discuss Only Chapter Twenty-Eight - The Missing Mirror of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows!


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Kevin Corbett - Jul 21, 2007 7:26 pm (#1 of 50)
I imagine this one will eventually fill up a bit more and I can gather some further opinions.

The thing is, there is one major detail in here that I'm not sure how to interpret. Please, please forgive me for even mentioning this if I am the only one who even thought of such a thing...but I still think I should ask. In this chapter, as I recall, Aberforth says about Ariana's attack "It destroyed her, what they did: She was never right again" (Chp. 28, p. 564). Again, I may be completely wrong in thinking this, but are we to possibly infer by this that she was raped, or merely beaten very badly? I know something like this is a hugely adult matter, and I hope that discussion of such a matter will be permitted, because I am entirely unsure if I am completely off-base here or not.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 21, 2007 7:42 pm (#2 of 50)
Kevin, the text open to many interpretations. I viewed the attack on Ariana Dumbledore in a different light. In a sense it reminded me of the Salem Witch Trials of 1692-93 and conduct of Inquistion towards women accused of witchcraft during the period from 1184 to 1834.

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Thom Matheson - Jul 21, 2007 7:58 pm (#3 of 50)
Kevin, I also thought as you did, but dismissed it when I looked at the age group for both her and her attackers. That is not to say 6 to 10 year olds don't happen but I see the boys as the same age as Ariana.

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MickeyCee3948 - Jul 21, 2007 9:32 pm (#4 of 50)
I didn't get that it was a physical attack. More of a mental thing which she couldn't deal with and the fact that her father was taken away from her for defending her honor would have made the guilt feeling inside of her that much worse. We also didn't find out how bad her father hurt the boys. If it was really bad, this would have added to her guilt even more.

What got me here was the vicious rumors perpetrated aganist the family by the likes of Rita Skeeter and Aunt Muriel. Shows how much harm these types of people can do.

Mickey

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Kevin Corbett - Jul 21, 2007 10:24 pm (#5 of 50)
Hmmm...I am thinking of Aberforth's description only.

"'They forced their way through the hedge, and when she couldn't show them the trick, they got a bit carried away trying to stop the little freak doing it.'" (ch. 28, p. 564)

And then the part about "It destroyed her, what they did: She was never right again."

There are, I think, two ways of interpreting it: either it was the horrible act itself perpetrated against Ariana, which may have beat to beat her or worse, which made her mad and terrified to ever do magic again (which would, I think, quite fit in with a diagnosis of Rape Trauma Syndrome...though, the psychology may be different for a child, I am admittedly no expert). Or it could be that these boys merely teased and tormented her to the extent that she resolved on never doing magic again, and the, um, let's call it "magical build-up" eventually drove her mad.

Now I feel even more unsure. Perhaps I am reading the wrong emotions into Aberforth's speech. And also, this is ostensibly a children's book, and maybe I supposing something altogether too dark to be entirely reasonable. Yet I can't get the phrase "It destroyed her, what they did" out of my head. It seems to be one of those unavoidable ambiguities, because it could either mean "What they did destroyed her because it was such a horrible act" or "What they did destroyed her because it made her repress her magic, which caused her to go mad."

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azi - Jul 22, 2007 3:12 am (#6 of 50)
"'They forced their way through the hedge, and when she couldn't show them the trick, they got a bit carried away trying to stop the little freak doing it.'"

Is it just me who can't fathom what this line means? Surely if they were trying to stop her doing magic, she'd have been able to show them the 'trick' but it went a bit far? **is very confused**

I read what happened as verbal and then violent when she couldn't do it.

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Muggle Doctor - Jul 22, 2007 4:32 am (#7 of 50)
How old the Muggle boys were is not stated. We've already had murders, political and racial persecution, and torture of children in this series, so I don't think rape is 'too adult' a concept next to that. They could well have raped her - that's one thing that occurred to me too. It might well have started with taunting and beating, but after they had her helpless on the ground, things go along the line of 'While we're here...'. Yeah. Quite believable.

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Anna L. Black - Jul 22, 2007 5:21 am (#8 of 50)
azi, the only explanation I can see is that they wanted to know what was the trick behind whatever she had done, which she obviously couldn't show them, as it was magic. She continued on showing them whatever it was, and they just got more and more frustrated... *shudders*

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Potteraholic - Jul 22, 2007 5:25 am (#9 of 50)
Kevin Corbett,

I felt the same way you did when I read about Ariana: "In this chapter, as I recall, Aberforth says about Ariana's attack "It destroyed her, what they did: She was never right again" (Chp. 28, p. 564). Again, I may be completely wrong in thinking this, but are we to possibly infer by this that she was raped, or merely beaten very badly?"

That part about it destroying her and she never being right again was very chilling to read.

Muggle Doctor, I also thought the same as you:

"How old the Muggle boys were is not stated. We've already had murders, political and racial persecution, and torture of children in this series, so I don't think rape is 'too adult' a concept next to that. They could well have raped her - that's one thing that occurred to me too."

But then I just want to cast this interpetation of Ariana's attack aside and interpret it the way Keven Corbett did in his 2nd post: "Or it could be that these boys merely teased and tormented her to the extent that she resolved on never doing magic again, and the, um, let's call it "magical build-up" eventually drove her mad."

In any case, Ariana's attack sounded as ambiguous to me as what the young Tom Riddle did to those 2 children in the cave during the orphanage's trip to the seaside all those years ago. Whatever he did that terrified them so.

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wynnleaf - Jul 22, 2007 6:15 am (#10 of 50)
JKR has been willing to show us some pretty chilling torture and death, such as the one in the first chapter. In general, throughout the series, if she describes some abuse, torture or death as extremely horrible, yet is not clear about exactly what happened, I tend to think she's decided that it's too extreme for children to read. So in Arianna's case I lean more toward Muggle Doctor's assumption.

Besides that, it seemed to me that Albus' father went after the boys not because of the way his daughter's magic was messed up, but because what they had done was such an atrocity against his child.

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Madam Pince - Jul 22, 2007 7:33 am (#11 of 50)
OK, I haven't even finished this chapter yet, but the picture of Ariana (I'm assuming it's Ariana) makes me think of Luna. Way back in the chapter where we first learned about Ariana and where it said that Kendra died from a backfiring spell, it made me think of Luna and her mother, and wonder if Luna is actually a descendant from Dumbledore's family tree somehow. They share a certain eccentricity, that's for sure.

I'm trying not to get everybody related, though -- there's already the Peverell family tree apparently leading down to Voldemort and to Harry, so maybe it's too much for Luna and DD? But Ron did say in an earlier book that all the purebloods were related somehow because of just the fact that they're purebloods...

I'm torn because the story is so exciting, yet I keep reading slower and slower and finding more excuses to do other things rather than read, because I don't want it to end...

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Kevin Corbett - Jul 22, 2007 8:26 am (#12 of 50)
The only quibble I have with the arguments about the books already showing some truly adult matters already is that, in spite of all her remonstrance of C.S. Lewis for Susan fate in "The Last Battle" being somehow anti-sexuality (which I have heard from a lot of corners and which I was disappointed to hear her echoing) from her interview with Time for HBP, there is, throughout the books, a complete nullity of sexual issues.

As far as I can tell, Harry went through all of puberty without so much as one impure thought---now, I will grant that the line "a corridor where he and Ginny were quite alone" could be interpreted as such...but I was never sure. I can't fault her if any treatment of the topic was cut by her editors, but if not, she always did seem to be leaving out a big part of adolescence. I don't mean to say that in that period of life, being actively sexual is a natural and morally acceptable thing (I personally do not think this to be the case, but that is simply my belief), but the fact that such thoughts inevitably occupy the mind teenage boy very much more than they do Harry's is something I know from experience. Now, if we had ever seen the world from, say, Ron's psychological point of view, it might have been a different story.

Now, this might seem a little off-topic, but again, the fact that JKR herself (let the directors of the films do what they will) has never injected sexual matters into the books makes me wonder if she would be willing to do so now. But then again, as I have heard from many acquaintances of mine who spend more time in the Women's Center of my university then I do, rape is not about sex, it is about power---the power to utterly degrade and humiliate another person. So, maybe rape is an altogether different thing...

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Weeny Owl - Jul 22, 2007 9:38 am (#13 of 50)
Considering Ariana's age, what the boys did to her didn't have to be sexual. A group of kids picking on another one frequently means insults, shoving, kicking, and maybe pelting the victim with mud, rocks, sticks, etc. It brings to mind "Carrie," where she gets a bucket of pig's blood dropped over her, and after that is when she totally loses it.

I have no problem with there not being a huge sexual aspect in these books (or the movies) because the story is about larger issues.

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Kevin Corbett - Jul 22, 2007 9:46 am (#14 of 50)
Actually, I don't have much of a problem with it either. I guess asking for complete verisimilitude in a book featuring hippogryphs and talking portraits is a little ridiculous.

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Ann - Jul 22, 2007 4:11 pm (#15 of 50)
Rowling is aware that people of many ages are reading these books, and she is being intentionally vague about violence when it concerns young children. That way, we can fill in the blanks with what, in our own opinions, would lead to such horrifying results. And, of course, adults are capable of imagining much more horrific things than children are. At least, one hopes....

I took Aberforth's description of the situation as Anna L. Black did--the "trick" they wanted was the mechanism, the slight of hand that allowed her to appear to perform magic.

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Soul Search - Jul 22, 2007 5:44 pm (#16 of 50)
I wondered how long the tormenting could have gone on and why it wasn't detected and stopped earlier.

It occurred in a garden of the house. How far away? Wasn't her mother supposed to be keeping an eye on her? Or was Aberforth or Albus supposed to be watching her and neglected that task? That would have added to the guilt felt.

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M A Grimmett - Jul 23, 2007 7:17 am (#17 of 50)
That was really aweful. That poor girl! The nature of the attack isn't as important as the result it caused.

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Solitaire - Jul 23, 2007 7:38 pm (#18 of 50)
Kevin, rape is, first and foremost, a crime of violence and violation of the worst kind, and it is not in the same vein as other sexual stuff. Depending on the ages of Arianna's attackers, what happened may or may not have been a sexual assault. However, I can think of plenty of terrifying and painful things which could have been done by kids her age to a child witch who couldn't control her magic well enough to protect herself. Think of some of the atrocities perpetrated on accused witches throughout history. Imagine some of them done to a child! No wonder she withdrew into herself and became afraid to use magic again.

Solitaire

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Chemyst - Jul 23, 2007 8:06 pm (#19 of 50)
Rape had not really occurred to me; although emotional rape, the theft of innocence and brutal violation of who you are at your core, certainly fits. I had thought they tried to kill her.

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Kevin Corbett - Jul 23, 2007 8:19 pm (#20 of 50)
Truly. I think mentioned that, as I've heard from friends of mine who work at the women's center at my school, rape is not about sex, but about power and control over another person.

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Muggle Doctor - Jul 24, 2007 7:43 am (#21 of 50)
Not primarily about the sex, that's for sure.

As for the HP books being nonsexual, no: we do get an idea of Harry's feelings when he thinks about "Dreams that made him thankful Ron didn't know Legilimency" back in book six.

I think the adults and older teenagers can speculate on whether Ariana's horrific experience might have been a rapacious one, whereas younger kids can imagine a really bad beating. That's the point of wording it the way JK did - everyone can use their own imagination. I'm certainly not going to get up on my high horse and say "Muggles raped Ariana Dumbledore" - I'm just going to say it's consistent if you want to imagine it that way, and leave it at that.

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Denise P. - Jul 24, 2007 7:53 am (#22 of 50)
Ann, several posts back, wrote: Rowling is aware that people of many ages are reading these books, and she is being intentionally vague about violence when it concerns young children. That way, we can fill in the blanks with what, in our own opinions, would lead to such horrifying results. And, of course, adults are capable of imagining much more horrific things than children are.

She has hit the nail on the head regarding the attack on Ariana. Since JKR is being vauge about it, I don't think it is necessary to speculate on specifics on the Forum. Everything that has been mentioned is a valid speculation but I don't think it needs to be explored any further. We are a family oriented Forum and as such, we really to be aware of our younger readers. Thanks in advance.

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Chemyst - Jul 24, 2007 4:24 pm (#23 of 50)
I don't remember ever seeing a guess, conjecture, or speculation that Aberforth had the mirror, but in hindsight it seems so obvious. Duh! How could we have missed that? We saw Mungdungus with a whole passel of stuff that used to belong to Sirius! We knew JKR was keeping Aberforth on the sideline for something. We knew that all sorts of information and odd items passed through the Hogs Head. How could I not have guessed this?

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Kevin Corbett - Jul 24, 2007 10:52 pm (#24 of 50)
Denise P.---I had that concern when I posed the question. But I think it seems that others might have thought the same thing, I do not think that it is something that ought to be ignored. I am an English teacher in training, and in a class I was taking last year, we discussed how, for example, Maya Angelou's I Know Why the Caged Bird is one of the most frequently anthologized books around, but the book itself, which tells of Maya's rape and how it changed her, is rarely read in whole, even in high schools.

I can understand that this is a "family forum"---but I feel that the discussion of a serious issue in an intelligent and sensitive way is not improper. Of course, if the moderators object, I will willingly submit and drop the subject altogether, though I would be disappointed.

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Denise P. - Jul 25, 2007 5:29 am (#25 of 50)
Perhaps you misread what I wrote. No where did it say that people could not speculate that rape took place. It is a valid speculation. However, beyond saying it may have happened, the specifics don't need to be explored any further on this Forum. There are places on the web where it could be discussed in depth but this Forum is not one of them. We have young members who read and post on this forum and some subjects, no matter how intelligent and sensitively it is discussed, are not appropriate for them to read.

Let me repeat what Ann, a forum member, wrote concerning this... Rowling is aware that people of many ages are reading these books, and she is being intentionally vague about violence when it concerns young children. That way, we can fill in the blanks with what, in our own opinions, would lead to such horrifying results.

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Kevin Corbett - Jul 25, 2007 7:42 am (#26 of 50)
Oh, I would totally agree...I didn't mean that we should be discussing specifics. That would be totally inappropriate. Just misunderstood I guess.

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VeronikaG - Jul 26, 2007 9:08 am (#27 of 50)
I doubt anything like that happened. It's so un-Potterish. I thought at first that they had tried to beat the secret behind the trick out of her, and when they realised it really was magic they had tried to kill her. Remember this incident took place back in the 19th century when people believed in and feared magic.

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haymoni - Jul 29, 2007 9:22 am (#28 of 50)
I can see why the Mirror was "off the table" during the Melissa/Emerson interview!!

I wanted it to be Dumbledore so badly, I didn't even think of Aberforth.

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Solitaire - Jul 31, 2007 6:39 pm (#29 of 50)
Actually, I did think of Aberforth! In fact, he was the first person I thought of when Harry first saw the blue eye back at 4PD. I just expected to see him sooner, that's all!

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Suzan - Aug 3, 2007 4:46 am (#30 of 50)
In all this discussion about the nature of the attack on Ariana, no one has mentioned the response by HRH. Harry's refusal to show any emotion, Ron looking slightly sick, and Hermoine crying. Which still leaves much up for speculation, but certainly indicates the seriousness of the attack to me.

So Aberforth and Ariana enjoyed feeding the goats together, and Aberforth's patronus is a goat? I wonder what Aberforth's goat-related "crime" was? Or are we supposed to see Aberforth as "an old goat?"

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Denise P. - Aug 3, 2007 7:45 am (#31 of 50)
His crime was practicing inappropriate charms on goats. I think that is as far as the speculation needs to go We find this out from DD himself in chapter 24 of GOF

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Choices - Aug 3, 2007 8:09 am (#32 of 50)
Someone speculated that Aberforth was using charms on the goat to make it produce wine or mead instead of milk. I like this explanation since Aberforth is a barman and he could make more money selling the liquid the goat produced.

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wynnleaf - Aug 3, 2007 10:56 am (#33 of 50)
Aberforth was not what I expected. I wonder how a re-read of Dumbledore's comment about wondering if Aberforth can even read would affect me now... I thought Aberforth was pretty articulate.

Aberforth gave a picture of Dumbledore that's worth looking at. He's certainly got his own biases, but they're not like Rita's biases. He's not trying to sell anything to Harry or convince Harry of his own perspective. I thought it was interesting that Aberforth doesn't just mention Arianna as being someone Albus cared for who met with a terrible end. He implied that there were others harmed through Albus' plans.

I have always liked Dumbledore a lot, but I find after seeing Aberforth's perspective that I think of Albus as much more arrogant than before. I tend to think the "real Albus" (and I don't just mean the Albus of 125 years in the past) was somewhere between the one Harry assumed at the end of HBP, and the Albus presented by Aberforth.

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TomProffitt - Aug 3, 2007 3:21 pm (#34 of 50)
I have always liked Dumbledore a lot, but I find after seeing Aberforth's perspective that I think of Albus as much more arrogant than before. I tend to think the "real Albus" (and I don't just mean the Albus of 125 years in the past) was somewhere between the one Harry assumed at the end of HBP, and the Albus presented by Aberforth. --- wynnleaf

I agree with you, wynnleaf. One of the things I always disliked about some of the Potter movies was that my vision of Dumbledore was much closer to the first actor than the second (unfortunately I don't recall either name accurately). After reading DH I find myself thinking that the second DD is probably much more accurate than the first.

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Weeny Owl - Aug 3, 2007 8:54 pm (#35 of 50)
Richard Harris (King Arthur in "Camelot.")

Dumbledore started out seeming to be a benevolent and quirky wizard, but as the books progressed, his character was fleshed out into something more human... flaws and all.

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rambkowalczyk - Aug 9, 2007 6:39 am (#36 of 50)
After reading the comment concerning Arianna and also of the two children hurt by Tom in the cave and then I think about the Longbottoms, there is the idea that there are some types of hurt that can't be healed. (The optimist in me wishes to amend that to can't be healed quickly.)

In some cases Magic can heal broken legs and serious bleeding within minutes. In other cases magic has its limitations. I think for the Dumbledore family this was a hard thing to accept especially when it looks as though Ariana was severely hurt by three Muggles.

It gives the readers an idea why some purebloods might hate Muggles. How can mere Muggles cause such permanent damage? Should we fear them? It puts Percival's actions in a different light. Not that what Percival's actions were right but definately understandable.

I think the nature of Ariana's attack was deliberately vague not necessarily because it could have included rape but simply because there are types of violence that destroys the inner psyche more than the physical body. No type of magic is needed for that, but why some people break under stress and others don't isn't anything that one can properly explain.

It could very well be that the damage that happened to Ariana was caused by herself as a response to the psychological and physical hurt that she experienced.

Now to less weighty topics

Aberforth has blue eyes. That mundane thought never occured to me. So much for thinking beyond the veil.

My first impression of Aberforth was that he might have been a Slytherin, but now I am not so sure. His whole attitude was more of a save yourself, don't go for the unreachable goal seemed more of a Slytherin idea. But he didn't seem to have Slytherin ambitions. Aberforth seemed willing enough to stay home with his sister.

Also Aberforth does talk like a man whose been angry at Albus for most of his life. I think when Harry told him that Dumbledore wasn't free, that Aberforth might have forgiven Albus. Anyway he showed Harry the way into Hogwarts.

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NFla Barbara - Aug 9, 2007 10:06 am (#37 of 50)
While sympathizing with your inner optimist, I think you are right that there are hurts that can't be healed (George's ear). DH might end on a "happy" note, but I think beneath that will be the knowledge of what could not be healed or made better.

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Choices - Aug 9, 2007 10:35 am (#38 of 50)
I'm not sure why, but I imagine that Aberforth was a Hufflepuff.

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TomProffitt - Aug 9, 2007 11:56 am (#39 of 50)
I'm not sure why, but I imagine that Aberforth was a Hufflepuff. --- Choices

Me, too, Choices. He shows a strong loyalty to his family, but doesn't seem to show any other of the defining traits of the Hogwarts Houses.

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Choices - Aug 12, 2007 3:56 pm (#40 of 50)
I loved Aberforth and his goat Patronus.

"The firelight made the grimy lenses of Aberforth's glasses momentarily opaque, a bright flat white."

"...and his eyes were briefly occluded by the firelight on the lenses of his glasses. They shone white and blind again."

Is JKR trying to tell us that Aberforth perhaps did not see (or understand) what happened in the past very clearly?

When Dumbledore drank the potion in the cave, he was made to relive what had been done to Aberforth and Ariana by Grindelwald.

Harry says, "Sometimes you have to think about the greater good! This is war." I think this is exactly what motivated Dumbledore. There were things he had to do whether he liked it or not, because this was indeed war.

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M A Grimmett - Aug 13, 2007 6:09 am (#41 of 50)
"The greater good" gets all kinds of connotations in this book.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 13, 2007 10:31 am (#42 of 50)
I wonder whether J.K. Rowling and by extension the philosophical leanings of the young Dumbledore and Grindelwald were influenced by the writings of Jeremy Bentham and John Stuart Mill because, the phrase the greater good in the context that it was used by the young Grindelwald and Dumbledore has I would argue has overtones Utilitarianism.

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M A Grimmett - Aug 13, 2007 10:47 am (#43 of 50)
I don't think that either Dumbledore or Grindelwald spent a lot of time on Muggle philosophy.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 13, 2007 11:01 am (#44 of 50)
M.A. Grimmett, perhaps, that is true, but, I am curious as to whether J.K. Rowling wrote the characters of the young Dumbledore and Grindelwald using Utilitarianism as the basis of their development from a literary standpoint.

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haymoni - Aug 17, 2007 5:29 pm (#45 of 50)
"the greater good" gives me the creeps.

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Madam Pince - Aug 17, 2007 9:45 pm (#46 of 50)
What? You don't believe in "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few... or the one..." ???!!!

(Citation from Mr. Spock... for any non-Trekkies out there...)

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valuereflection - Aug 21, 2007 2:09 pm (#47 of 50)
Nathan, I also wondered if Rowling based young Dumbledore's ideas on the philosophy of Utilitarianism, or if she took the slogan "the greater good" from another source.

I think there was a long story behind Dumbledore's revealing comment in GoF that he wasn't sure if Aberforth could read. He and Aberforth were so very different while growing up that they spent little time together doing Albus' favorite pastimes, until Aberforth finished his third year at Hogwarts. Elphias Doge said that as a boy Aberforth was never bookish and he disliked reasoned discussion -- but these were Albus' favorite activities. Doge said Aberforth preferred dueling. Aberforth said he fed and took care of goats. After Aberforth's third year at Hogwarts, the brothers became estranged until their later years, and Albus would not have known if Aberforth's reading skills improved since then.

When I first read the chapter, I wondered if Aberforth dropped out of Hogwarts, but I wasn't sure about that idea when I reread. I wondered because Aberforth said, "I'd have looked after her (Ariana), I told him so, I didn't care about school, I'd have stayed home and done it. He told me I had to finish my education and he'd take over from my mother... He did all right for a few weeks... until he came. Grindelwald... And looking after Ariana took a backseat then while they were hatching all their plans... But after a few weeks of it, I'd had enough, I had. It was nearly time for me to go back to Hogwarts, so I told 'em..." I wondered if Aberforth decided not to go back to school when Ariana died, in order to rebel against his brother Albus who'd told him he had to finish his education.

The evidence against the idea of Aberforth dropping out of Hogwarts is that he is fully capable of casting a Patronus charm, which is advanced magic. And I cannot picture the Hogwarts staff allowing student to simply fade away when he became newly orphaned; I think they would have sent someone to encourage the boy to return to school. Perhaps he completed his Hogwarts education without doing much reading, like Crabbe and Goyle.

On the other hand Aberforth is more quick-witted than Crabbe or Goyle. Or Hagrid, who we know dropped out after his third year. Aberforth could have learned the Patronus Charum outside of school from another Order member who gave him tutoring (like Bella tutored Draco). Or maybe he completed his OWL's and left school after his fifth year.

I can't decide if the idea of Aberforth dropping out is plausible. What does everyone think?

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Choices - Aug 21, 2007 4:43 pm (#48 of 50)
valuereflection - "Or Hagrid, who we know dropped out after his third year."

I don't think Hagrid can be considered a school drop-out since he was expelled.

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Mrs Brisbee - Aug 21, 2007 5:00 pm (#49 of 50)
I think Aberforth went back to school, at the very least until he was of age, if for no better reason than to get away from Albus. If he stayed out of school he would be an underage wizard, with Albus controlling him as his guardian.

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legolas returns - Aug 22, 2007 9:59 am (#50 of 50)
I wonder if memories of feeding the goats with Ariana were what he thought about when he cast the Patronus Charm?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

[Mona]

Kip Carter - Jul 19, 2007 5:35 am
Edited Jul 25, 2007 12:40 am
This thread is to discuss Only of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows!


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Madam Pince - Jul 22, 2007 8:43 am (#1 of 23)
Oh for pity's sake! Why doesn't he just stand in the corridor outside the RoR and say "I need to find the horcrux that's hidden in Hogwarts!"??? Has the boy learned nothing? For heaven's sake, they just told him that Neville had figured out that all you have to do is ask specifically! And Dumbledore taught him that all who ask for help at Hogwarts will get it!

***banging forehead against table...***

I can't stand this...

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azi - Jul 22, 2007 9:13 am (#2 of 23)
I thought that too, Madam P! I suppose doing that would be just too easy...

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Ann - Jul 22, 2007 4:12 pm (#3 of 23)
Not to mention far less dramatic....

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Madam Pince - Jul 24, 2007 12:33 pm (#4 of 23)
I love it that Ravenclaw tower doesn't have a password, but rather you have to correctly answer a question. It fits... a little more is expected of the "smart kids."

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Gina R Snape - Jul 24, 2007 8:56 pm (#5 of 23)
I loved that too, Madame Pince! Heee.

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Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 27, 2007 1:29 am (#6 of 23)
And the Ravenclaw common room was at the top of a vertigo inducing set of stairs. Interesting one for the alchemists.

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Mediwitch - Aug 1, 2007 4:44 pm (#7 of 23)
I love how Harry starts out insisting on doing things himself (well, with Ron and Hermione) but capitulates to his friends and agrees they can help as well.

I also giggled a bit when Ginny insisted that Luna take Harry to the Ravenclaw common room. Cho does seem to be a bit of a celebrity-hound, so I couldn't really blame Ginny.

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Solitaire - Aug 1, 2007 11:00 pm (#8 of 23)
I think we all need to pay homage to haymoni for this interesting post, made back on May 5th:

I'm holding out that Harry sits next to Luna at the wedding and that she says something about the tiara that Fleur is wearing...
"Rowena Ravenclaw was very fond of tiaras," Luna said dreamily.
"What?" said Harry.

It didn't happen quite that way, but it was rather prophetic, wasn't it?

Solitaire

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M A Grimmett - Aug 3, 2007 8:49 am (#9 of 23)
It was good.

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haymoni - Aug 3, 2007 4:17 pm (#10 of 23)
I am thrilled you remembered, Solitare!

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Solitaire - Aug 5, 2007 9:08 am (#11 of 23)
Haymoni, I thought of you instantly and went off in search of that post! If you remember, I liked the thought when you posted it, too!

Solitaire

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kingdolohov - Aug 7, 2007 12:00 pm (#12 of 23)
I agree, it was quite prophetic, with Luna leading Harry to the tiara in the Ravenclaw common room.

I have to acknowledge my own prediction as well, though. In the predictions for Book 7, post #259 (I think) I mentioned the tiara in the Room of Requirement, and the Grey Lady (who I took to be Rowena Ravenclaw) leading Harry to it. I believe this was one of my first posts two years ago.

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rambkowalczyk - Aug 9, 2007 6:53 am (#13 of 23)
Sometimes Harry can get so focused on what he has to do, he forgets he needs other people to help him. It's infuriating.

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Choices - Aug 16, 2007 4:14 pm (#14 of 23)
I love the fact that the DE's bit off more than they could chew with Gran Longbottom. Go Granny!

Neville uses the fake galleons to summon the DA. Go Neville!!

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freshwater - Aug 17, 2007 4:57 pm (#15 of 23)
I've gotten the impression, Choices, that you are re-reading DH and are noting your impressions here as you go...I've been enjoying that, mum.

I, too, love the fact that Agusta Longbottom is now 'on the run'...and that she took out Dawlish as he tried to arrest her. Yet one more example that receiving all "O's" on your N.E.W.T.'s doesn't necessarily mean anything.

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Choices - Aug 17, 2007 5:05 pm (#16 of 23)
*waves to Freshwater** That is exactly what I am doing - slowly rereading and taking the time to think about and enjoy this excellent book. It is such a joy to read what JKR writes. I finished the book last night and plan to start again. :-)

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freshwater - Aug 19, 2007 9:55 am (#17 of 23)
I bought the Bloomsbury CD's from amazon.co.uk because I prefer --immensely-- Stephen Fry's reading over Jim Dales'. My son and I just finished listening to all 20 CD's yesterday. Stephen Fry reads slowly enough, and with enough expression, that it is really enjoyable. Another bonus: in the "King's Cross" chapter, Fry speaks DD's lines exactly as (I think) DD would...love it! My only complaint would be that Fry speaks Harry's lines when finally facing LV with too much energy/anger at first...in my mind that should be calm, quiet, controlled and very Dumbledore-ish. Anyway, if you get a chance to hear the British CD's, do so.


*now returning to our previously scheduled discussion of ch. 29...**

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Soul Search - Aug 19, 2007 10:07 am (#18 of 23)
freshwater,

I have the Jim Dale versions of all the books, and enjoyed them very much, but have also heard good things about the Stephen Frye versions. I liked Frye as "Jeeves," but didn't know how to go about getting the Stephen Frye versions.

How complicated, money changing etc., is it to order from amazon.co.uk?

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Xenophilius - Aug 19, 2007 12:37 pm (#19 of 23)
You can get the Stephen Fry versions through amazon.uk.co. Just set up an account, your credit card company will handle the conversions. I have them both and I like them both for different reasons. It takes 2 to 3 weeks for the shipping.

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freshwater - Aug 19, 2007 10:51 pm (#20 of 23)
Soul Search, Xenophilus is right...you just go through check out and use your credit card. My set of CD's arrived in just under two weeks.

While I have to admire Jim Dale's extensive use of unique character voices, his intonation and expression --or the lack thereof-- drive me crazy. I think it's because, as a teacher and a mom, I have so much experience in reading aloud myself, and I can so often imagine how I would have spoken it differently.

One other fun thing about using amazon.co.uk is that they had HP figures and vehicles (toys/collectibles) that had never been offered for sale in the US.

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Soul Search - Aug 20, 2007 4:50 am (#21 of 23)
Thanks, I think I will give it a try.

(The CDs. I am probably too old for action figures.)

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freshwater - Aug 21, 2007 12:13 am (#22 of 23)
*snort** Who says you're too old for action figures? The ones I liked were the vehicles: the Ford Angila comes with Harry and Ron figures (but I really just want the car), the Hogwarts Express, and the Knight Bus.

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haymoni - Aug 21, 2007 4:49 pm (#23 of 23)
"I didn't see you playing with your dolls!!!"

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[Mona]

Kip Carter - Jul 19, 2007 5:37 am
Edited Jul 25, 2007 12:40 am
This thread is to discuss Only Chapter Thirty - The Sacking of Severus Snape of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows!


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hellocello3200 - Jul 21, 2007 6:05 pm (#1 of 62)
I loved McGonagall in this chapter!

"Our headmaster is taking a short break," said professor McGonagall, pointing at the Snape shaped hole in the window.

I laughed out loud at that one. Both the understatement and the image of Alan Rickman-esque hole in the glass that I really makes it into the movie.

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Anna L. Black - Jul 21, 2007 11:19 pm (#2 of 62)
This chapter and the previous are the first times that I had tears - when they meet Neville, and when Percy comes back.

I probably can't say it enough, but Jo - thank you!

(Off to the next chapter)

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azi - Jul 22, 2007 3:21 am (#3 of 62)
I agree, McGonagall was great. We also saw exactly how powerful she is in this chapter. The fire > serpent > daggers mini-duel with Snape reminded me of the fight between DD and Voldemort in book 5.

One phrase I found interesting. Pg 481, UK edition, said by Flitwick, 'You'll do no more murder at Hogwarts.'

At first I was thinking, 'What, McGonagall's murdered someone?' Then I realised Flitwick must have meant murder by anyone at Hogwarts. Were students murdered at Hogwarts within the last year? Probably, I'd say.

McGonagall uses the Imperius curse on a Death Eater, while Harry uses the Cruciatus curse (along with a few other Imperio's earlier on in the story). Definitely in a war situation for that to be acceptable. I was, however, surprised that people on the 'good' side would sink to that.

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Potteraholic - Jul 22, 2007 5:41 am (#4 of 62)
Loved when McGonagall tells Harry, "we teachers are rather good at magic. you know." LOL

And about Harry Crucioing Amycus, I was a bit schocked at that, too. But I suppose that, since he was filled with such affection for good old Minerva, standing up for him -- "Potter belongs in my House!" -- his anger at seeing the DE spit on her just got the better of him. As Bellatrix told him, you really have to mean it. I s'pose Harry really did.

Azi, what Flitwick says is the same in the US edition (p. 599). I didn't think he was talking to McGonagall, but to Snape, since his spell was aimed at the suit of armor behind which Snape was hiding. But maybe he meant you as in you-Death Eater, someone who works for Voldemort, the master murderer. JM2K.

Editing my own post to add, YAY! that Percy came back. Actually made me cheer out loud and get a bit teary-eyed!

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azi - Jul 22, 2007 5:47 am (#5 of 62)
Ooo, good idea, Potteraholic! I got confused because Flitwick says Minerva before the phrase I quoted above. Maybe he was worried about her and then saw she was fighting with Snape, hence the no more murder comment?

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Madam Pince - Jul 22, 2007 9:23 am (#6 of 62)
I took it that he was speaking to Snape, referring back to what he thinks of as Dumbledore's murder, ie: you'll do no more murders (beyond Dumbledore's) at Hogwarts.

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Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 22, 2007 1:22 pm (#7 of 62)
Madame Pince, that's the way I saw Flitwick's comment too. I also loved McGonnagel's comment "done a bunk". I can just see Maggie Smith doing that.

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Solitaire - Jul 23, 2007 7:53 pm (#8 of 62)
As I read these words--With a tingle of horror, Harry saw in the distance a huge, batlike shape flying through the darkness toward the perimeter wall--I thought, Aha! Snape is an Animagus, and his form is a bat! He is flying over the wall. Alas, the illusion was shattered a few sentences later. **sigh** Wrong again!

Solitaire

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Muggle Doctor - Jul 24, 2007 7:24 am (#9 of 62)
Percy's return was brilliant. And I like it that he was able to just own up to his stupidity and not try to make excuses for it.

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M A Grimmett - Jul 24, 2007 8:57 am (#10 of 62)
A moment when we saw why he was put in Gryffendor. He made the choice to come back, apologize, and to do the right thing. Had to be tough for him.

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journeymom - Jul 24, 2007 2:28 pm (#11 of 62)
"done a bunk"- to leave without permission.

Another Brit phrase added for my repertoire. Am waiting for the opportunity to use it in conversation.

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Kevin Corbett - Jul 24, 2007 4:47 pm (#12 of 62)
I was a bit troubled that McGonnagel and Umbridge have nearly the same Patronus. And by the way, do you reckon hers always takes the form of a litter of cats, or did she just summon three of them? And the plural of Patronus...is is Patronuses or Patroni? So many questions...

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Allison R - Jul 24, 2007 9:13 pm (#13 of 62)
Kevin, on my second read I noticed that the reason there were three of MacGonnigal's patronisus was likely that she was sending word to the three other Heads of House and so each of them needed their own Patronus to deliver the message to them. If she was sending a message to only one person, then I think there would only be one. Does that make sense?

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journeymom - Jul 24, 2007 9:26 pm (#14 of 62)
And McGonagall's patronus would kick Umbridge's patronus's butt.

That they have the same kind of patronus isn't an accident. We're probably supposed to contrast the women.

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Allison R - Jul 24, 2007 9:33 pm (#15 of 62)
To say that Umbridge and MacGonnigal have the same kind of patronus is a pretty broad stroke, I think. They are both cats, yes. But I picture Umbridge's cat looking more like one of the fussy, fluffy kittens on her plates from her office wall, and MacGonnigal's looking like her animangus form-- the tabby cat with spectical-type markings around the eyes. No one would ever confuse one for the other

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M A Grimmett - Jul 25, 2007 6:13 am (#16 of 62)
If you did, McGonagall's cat would kick your butt.

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legolas returns - Jul 25, 2007 2:34 pm (#17 of 62)
I know that people have mentioned using unforgivable curses during war. McGonagall use of an unforgivable curse in my opinion is totally forgivable. She used it to protect students at her school from torture/murder.

Harrys use of the cruciatus curse in this chapter was unecessary when he could have stunned the death eater and still have got the same effect.

I find it interesting how her attitude to Harry changes the second that he says he is here on Dumbledores orders. Its not like he would come to the school for a holiday when hes undesirable 1!

I wonder if the toads patronus was her own or whether they had a machine to keep the patronus going. I agree the cat would have been fluffy and wearing a bow.

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Gina R Snape - Jul 25, 2007 6:13 pm (#18 of 62)
Imagine the cat fight that would ensue between Umbridge and McG's patronuses!

I want to see a Severus-shaped hole in the movie. But aside from the humor, why was Snape the only DE to learn how to fly via the use of a wand? Did he watch Voldemort and learn? Or was he taught? I wanna KNOOOOW!!!

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totyle - Jul 25, 2007 6:50 pm (#19 of 62)
Edited by Catherine Jul 26, 2007 7:01 am
Solitaire, I thought Snape was a bat animagus too when I read that! Ive read it again since and Im not sure..it does say a huge bat like shape...Is he just flying like Voldemort? Because then Mcgonagall says he learnt a few tricks from his master, so i guess it was just him flying away with his robes flapping giving the image of a huge bat.

Edited to remove the word "coz" and substitute "because." Please do not use Netspeak on the Forum.--Catherine

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Finn BV - Jul 25, 2007 8:09 pm (#20 of 62)
Did anybody understand McGonagall's answer about where Vanished objects go? Do you think that means you can ever retrieve them? Or they just dissolve into nothingness, or rather, everything? I loved how the door knocker responded: "Nicely phrased" and "Well reasoned."

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Solitaire - Jul 25, 2007 8:12 pm (#21 of 62)
Totyle, I had to reread that sentence immediately. The bat-like shape is clearly Voldemort, flying toward the school perimeter ... not Snape leaving it. That was just my first thought, based on a long-cherished belief that Snape's Animagus was a bat. hehe

Solitaire

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totyle - Jul 25, 2007 8:17 pm (#22 of 62)
Edited by Catherine Jul 26, 2007 6:59 am
BUT But but..it really couldn't have been Voldemort because he was at the lake checking on his locket horcrux...Harry got the vision a few lines down..

It must have been Snape flying out of Hogwarts..either as a bat or just bat shaped which is how he is described often..

Edited to remove the word "coz" and substitute "because." Please do not use Netspeak on the Forum.--Catherine

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Madam Pince - Jul 25, 2007 8:35 pm (#23 of 62)
I'm with totyle -- I think it was Snape flying away from Hogwarts, toward the perimeter wall, going to join Voldemort at the Shrieking Shack.

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VeronikaG - Jul 26, 2007 9:30 am (#24 of 62)
I just wondered something after reading this chapter. Snape can fly too, and he learned it from voldy. Does that mean flying is dark magic? I can't see how it is evil, because it doesn't harm anyone. In most other stories where flying takes place it is innocent. I can imagine it would involve some pretty powerful magic to levitate yourself of the ground, and that most witches and wizards never learn it, but dark arts... I doubt it.

When I read about the Snape shaped hole I took it literally and thought "too bad Snape doesn't have a hairstyle that stands up or anything!"

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Soul Search - Jul 26, 2007 10:09 am (#25 of 62)
I would think making a hole in a wall the shape of your body would be pretty powerful magic, too.

But, I agree, flying would be powerful magic, but not necessarily dark. Unless, you have to kill a bird to do it, or something.

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Choices - Jul 28, 2007 10:03 am (#26 of 62)
Makes you wonder when Dumbledore has gone places, does he apparate or does he fly? If Voldemort can fly, then I'm sure Dumbledore can also - I would certainly hate to think that Voldemort could do something that our Dumbledore could not.

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Chemyst - Jul 28, 2007 10:54 am (#27 of 62)
Flying? Yes but, like swimming the English Channel, I think it would take a lot of physical stamina; for sight-seeing, I'd rather ride a thestral.

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M A Grimmett - Jul 30, 2007 12:53 pm (#28 of 62)
Maybe the flying is just a self-Levitation spell. Followed perhaps by a Locomotor spell?

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Columbine Fairy - Aug 1, 2007 2:47 pm (#29 of 62)
Go, Minerva!!! After the line from Madam Pomfrey in Ootp, when she says "as if any one of them could have taken her on in broad daylight", or something like that, Ive been itching to see some serious McGonagall might!!

And when Percy came back... I managed to hold it together after Dobby, but that one just got me. And I loved how he fought in the battle - transfiguring someone? Fantastic!! Reminds you that before he turned into the power hungry ministry loving moron, he was probably Hogwarts' top student.

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Mediwitch - Aug 1, 2007 4:50 pm (#30 of 62)
McGonagall was AWESOME!

The energy and excitement really started ramping up in this chapter - even during my re-read it was hard to slow down.

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M A Grimmett - Aug 3, 2007 8:49 am (#31 of 62)
I was so pleased Percy pulled his head out and that it was Fred who first welcomed him back to the family.

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hellocello3200 - Aug 4, 2007 10:32 am (#32 of 62)
soul search, maybe you have to kick a puppy to fly? but seriously, it must be difficult to learn or else we would have seen more of it (I'm seeing Fred & George whizing around and McGonagaal shouting something like "I've told you a thousand times! No flying in the corridors!") maybe it was a long lost are and LV figured it out.

Maybe it was just me because I had just had people over for an annual martial arts film & sushi night, but I was imagining that it looked something like how they "fly" in some wuxia flims like Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon. maybe they can rig up the wire system and iport some Chinese flimworkers for the 7th movie?

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rambkowalczyk - Aug 9, 2007 2:10 pm (#33 of 62)
I think Harry's use of the Cruciatius comes under the catagory of righteous anger. Not exactly ethical but understandable, maybe like what Percival Dumbledore did to the Muggles who harmed his daughter.

Couldn't Harry think of what bathroom Ron and Hermione were talking about? Even I figured this out.

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wynnleaf - Aug 9, 2007 9:20 pm (#34 of 62)
I think Harry's use of the Cruciatius comes under the catagory of righteous anger. (ramb)

And McGonagall's comment that it was "gallant?" What category would you call that?

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M A Grimmett - Aug 10, 2007 7:09 am (#35 of 62)
I guess I just don't like that they are called "Unforgivable Curses" and it was said in an earlier book that use of the curses was a one-way ticket to Azkeban. They seem unforgivable for good reason--depriving a person of his free will, causing temporary or permanant pain and damage, and killing. I honestly was disappointed that any of the good guys used them at all, much less that Harry cast a good one as per advice from Bellatrix.

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mona amon - Aug 10, 2007 7:35 am (#36 of 62)
I have to confess I was really glad when Harry used that Crucio so successfully. For me it was one of the high points of the chapter! It was unethical and unnecessary, but I can't help it, its just so satisfying to see the bad guys getting a dose of their own medicine at least once. Am I the only one? I also agree with McGonagall that it was gallant. He was so angry on her behalf that he was even willing to do something unethical to the one who insulted her!

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Potteraholic - Aug 10, 2007 9:24 am (#37 of 62)
mona amon: "... it's just so satisfying to see the bad guys getting a dose of their own medicine at least once."

Amen!

I have to agree with those who weren't too bothered by Harry using the Crucio curse on Amycus (sp?) Carrow or McGonagall's "gallant" response.

Of course, I don't like the good guys using any of the Unforgiveable Curses, but they are not saintly figures a la Mother Teresa. They are human, and as such, sometimes respond to heated, emotional situations in imperfect ways. Harry's action was perfecly understandable in my eyes. It didn't make me think any less of Harry (or Minerva, for that matter).

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haymoni - Aug 10, 2007 3:47 pm (#38 of 62)
Harry using Unforgiveables didn't bother me in the least.

Makes me think what Rufus told the Prime Minister - "But the other side can do magic too!"

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Holly T. - Aug 10, 2007 5:36 pm (#39 of 62)
I would think there would be an exception to using Unforgivables in a wartime situation.

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kingdolohov - Aug 12, 2007 5:49 pm (#40 of 62)
Harry and McGonagall weren't the only ones that were willing to go beyond the lightweight spells. After moving Harry, Kingsley says he might have killed one, and he didn't seem too worried about it. Lupin told Harry if he wasn't prepared to kill, to at least Stun. I think they all realized that the situation had changed. I mean, if one of them ran into a DE on the streets, what would be the purpose of stunning them, other than getting away?

They (the DE) obviously wouldn't be locked up by the current administration, and it would be too much effort to keep them prisoner yourself. I'd be aiming to kill or at least permantly injure.

Actually, Kingsley did run into some, I wonder if he killed any.

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Choices - Aug 16, 2007 4:22 pm (#41 of 62)
McGonagall is so cool.

Note to self* - Do not spit in McGonagall's face in front of Harry. Ouch!

Both Harry and McGonagall use Unforgivables - it is definitely WAR.

Flitwick is way cool also....."muttering incantations of great complexity."

I love the way McGonagall lays down the law to Slughorn. "....we duel to kill." Slughorn is shocked.

Nice to see Percy return.

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Madame Pomfrey - Aug 17, 2007 4:46 pm (#42 of 62)
its just so satisfying to see the bad guys getting a dose of their own medicine at least once. Am I the only one? Mona Amon

Not at all!.I loved that part!Hogwarts was Harry's home and McGonagall was mother of his house.He loved and respected her enough that he wasn't about to let a nasty DE disrespect her that way. Go Harry!!

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wynnleaf - Aug 17, 2007 8:01 pm (#43 of 62)
Crucio is an intense torture curse. Harry said that Bellatrix was right, when she said you have to really mean it, you have to really want to torture someone in order to do it. So no, I didn't like Harry doing that. There's a great array of hexes, jinxes, and even curses Harry could have used that would have seemed satisfying to the characters and to the readers. It was JKR's specific choice to use the torture curse.

Later, she said that Harry used it because Harry, like Snape, is a flawed individual. Using Crucio shows his flaws. It wasn't "gallant."

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Madam Pince - Aug 17, 2007 9:54 pm (#44 of 62)
But I bet if you were McGonnagal, it would've felt "gallant" to you. It would've to me, anyway.

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legolas returns - Aug 17, 2007 11:50 pm (#45 of 62)
I thought because Harry was feeling righteous anger rather than really wanting to harm the death eater He quickly lost control of the curse and smashed the death eater into the wall. He commented that Bellatrix had said that you really have to mean it and anger wont hurt for long. I think Harrys temper got the better of him. A simple stun would have done the job as effectively.

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Phelim Mcintyre - Aug 18, 2007 1:31 am (#46 of 62)
I'm not sure the crucio was just because of McGonnagal. To Harry McGonnagal was the true head of Hogwarts. For Carrow to spit at Minerva was to show disrespect to the Hogwarts that Harry knew, loved and felt was his home under Dumbledore - that McGonnagal would, he believed, carry on.

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Luna Logic - Aug 18, 2007 1:57 am (#47 of 62)
As Wynnleaf and Legolas return, I didn't like Harry on that matter of the Crucio (neither McGonagall). I explained later to myself that, at the moment, Harry had still Voldemort bit of soul in him...
But McGonagall had not a Voldemort bit of soul in her...
Or, that scene could be the "figuration" of our bad part, which for J. Rowling is a part able to torture another creature?

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Madame Pomfrey - Aug 18, 2007 6:50 am (#48 of 62)
I have no problem with Harry doing that.The Carrows,if I remember correctly,used the crucio as a means of punnishment on Hogwarts students.I see no problem that Harry gave one of them a dose of their own medicine.I don't think Harry acted because there was a piece of Voldemorts soul in him because he wasn't able to crucio the witch responsible for Sirius's death.He had to mean it and he admitted to such afterwards. I like it that Harry and Dumbledore are flawed it makes for a more realistic character.

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wynnleaf - Aug 18, 2007 1:26 pm (#49 of 62)
Here's JKR's comments on the crucio:

Barbara: I was very disappointed to see harry use crucio and seem to enjoy it his failure to perform that kind of curse in the past has been a credit to his character why the change, and did harry later regret having enjoyed deliberately causing pain

J.K. Rowling: Harry is not, and never has been, a saint. Like Snape, he is flawed and mortal.

J.K. Rowling: Harry's faults are primarily anger and occasional arrogance.

J.K. Rowling: On this occasion, he is very angry and acts accordingly. He is also in an extreme situation, and attempting to defend somebody very good against a violent and murderous opponent.

One thing JKR seems to resist is the notion that her characters should be seen by readers to be engaging in certain behaviors and not in others. So she basically has Harry use a terrible curse because he is flawed. She explains the reasons for his actions, but doesn't excuse Harry, instead saying this is a result of Harry's flaws. I think that's important, to see Harry's reasons, but realize it doesn't excuse him.

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Madame Pomfrey - Aug 18, 2007 3:26 pm (#50 of 62)
Thanks for posting that,Wynnleaf. It is probably easier to ask who doesn't have flaws in the W.W. Jo certainly doesn't seem to exuse him, only explain the reasons why he did it and that his flaws are anger and arrogance.He was angry that Carrow spit in his House Mistress'face.I am glad he has that flaw.Had he not retalliated I would be sorely disappointed.He could have used a different curse and I would have been fine with that too,but he didn't and I am in no way disappointed in him for his weakness.

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Luna Logic - Aug 18, 2007 11:05 pm (#51 of 62)
I agree totally with the idea of reasons but not excuses. IMO, that idea goes well with the general idea of how punishment is conceived at Hogwarts (I have read some post about that subject, but I don't remember in what thread!)

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TomProffitt - Aug 19, 2007 11:49 am (#52 of 62)
I had thought McGonagall's "How gallant ... " was said in a very dry manner. I don't think McGonagall thought it gallant at all, but decided that it wasn't the time to argue the point. She doesn't strike me as the type who would want rescue, but would prefer to fight her own battles.

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Choices - Aug 19, 2007 12:07 pm (#53 of 62)
I disagree, I think McGonagall's "how gallant" was very genuine. She was too flustered and fearful for Harry's safety, to be sarcastic in saying that. She was struggling to pull herself together and clutching her heart - I hardly think it was the time for her to be flip in her reply to Harry.

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Chemyst - Aug 19, 2007 2:18 pm (#54 of 62)
I never doubted that the "gallant" comment was genuine, but my reasoning is totally different– nothing to do with flustered clutching. Instead I thought back to her character when Harry & Ron told her they wanted to go visit the petrified Hermione. There was nothing gallant about their bending the truth back then, of course, but it did show that McGonagall could be deeply touched by what she had believed to be a chivalrous show of support for a friend.

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Choices - Aug 19, 2007 4:05 pm (#55 of 62)
You are so right, Chemyst. McGonagall cares about Harry very much and she knew his act was genuine - Harry respects her deeply. I think what he did touched her.

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Caput Draconis - Aug 19, 2007 10:40 pm (#56 of 62)
I was way more offended that some vile little Death Eater spat in the face of Minerva McGonagall than at Harry's use of Crucio. In that moment I felt like torturing Carrow too, even knowing as I do what a terrible fate Neville's parents endure. I think the impulse was simply meant to show the depth of feeling Harry has for her.

I took McGonagall's comment to be a dry one as well. Like 'Much appreciated Harry, but you are Undesirable Number One, so it's probably best if you don't go around showing yourself to DEs'. Could be wrong, though.

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Madam Pince - Aug 21, 2007 9:53 pm (#57 of 62)
Wow, I love this Forum. It never even occurred to me that McGonnagal was being sarcastic/dry. Now that I think about it, it's certainly possible. I tend to lean towards it being an honest reaction because that's how I first read it, but thanks for the different perspective! (Love the avatar, Caput Draconis...)

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Orion - Aug 22, 2007 4:15 am (#58 of 62)
What exactly does your avatar show, Caput Draconis? Forgive me my thicknesse.

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Choices - Aug 22, 2007 7:55 am (#59 of 62)
That's Alan Rickman as his character in the movie Galaxy Quest.

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Madame Pomfrey - Aug 22, 2007 2:23 pm (#60 of 62)
I though that conehead looked familiar!

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haymoni - Aug 22, 2007 7:11 pm (#61 of 62)
Carrow had to have been a student of Minerva's - even more of an insult - what a vile creature!

Edit: I still hate Greyback most of all, though!

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kingdolohov - Sep 16, 2007 7:45 am (#62 of 62)
I think Harry's use of the Unforgivables sort of set us up for a surprise at the end. First he uses the Imperius Curse, then the Cruciatus Curse successfully for the first time, and then ... he uses Expelliarmus to beat Voldemort, not the last Unforgivable.

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[Mona]

Kip Carter - Jul 19, 2007 5:43 am
Edited Jul 25, 2007 12:40 am
This thread is to discuss Only Chapter Thirty-One - The Battle of Hogwarts of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows!


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nthdavid - Jul 21, 2007 8:01 am (#1 of 45)
Edited by Mare Jul 21, 2007 1:12 pm
(apologies to Shakespeare) This day is called the feast of Harry Potter: Any that outlives this day and comes safe home, Will stand a tip-toe when this day is named, And rouse them at the name of Harry Potter. All that shall live this day, and see old age, Will yearly on the vigil feast their neighbours, And say, 'To-morrow is Saint Harry's Day:' Then will they strip their sleeve and show their scars, And say, 'These wounds I had on Harry's day.' Old witches and wizards forget: yet all shall be forgot, But they'll remember with advantages What feats he did that day. Then shall our names, Familiar in his mouth as household words, Harry the Chosen One, Hermoine and Ron, Neville and Fred and Dobbie, Be in their flowing cups freshly remembered. This story shall the good teach their children; And Harry's day shall ne'er go by, From this day to the ending of the world, But we in it shall be rememberèd; We few, we happy few, we band of sorcerers; For all to-day that sheds their blood with me Shall be my kin; be they ne'er so vile This day shall gentle their condition: And gentlewizards in England, now a-bed Shall think themselves accursed they were not here, And hold their magics cheap whiles any speaks That fought with us upon Saint Harry's day.

I edited out one name to be on the safe side of things.

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Thom Matheson - Jul 21, 2007 3:14 pm (#2 of 45)
good job chrispy

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Madam Pince - Jul 22, 2007 9:28 am (#3 of 45)
No, no, no, no, NOOOOOO! I don't want that to happen! This really really really really stinks.

So reminiscent of Sirius... I suppose there's no other way he'd rather go, though. I need more tissues.

***still holding out hope for the Deathly Hallows to conquer death somehow... like Lucy Pevensie with her diamond bottle of cordial from Father Christmas...***

I'm thinking Narcissa is dead and she gave her wand to Draco before she died.

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freshwater - Jul 23, 2007 11:44 am (#4 of 45)
Thank you, nthdavid, for that rousing adaptation....very fitting.

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Muggle Doctor - Jul 24, 2007 7:13 am (#5 of 45)
This is one of my favourite chapters for many reasons.

1) The rest of the school's reaction to Pansy wanting to turn Harry in. This was one of those magical moments. Every non-Slytherin stands up to defend him.

2) Who stays. A few Ravenclaws. Many more Hufflepuffs. Half of Gryffindor House (and the underage sneak back).

3) Hannah Abbott came back. (She's my favourite Hufflepuff.) I know they ALL had to come back because of the Voldeministry Decree, but she came back and she stayed to fight when, having already lost her mother, she could have been excused for leaving. But I suppose she's DA after all.

4) Ron speaking Parseltongue to get the Basilisk fangs. And saying he couldn't order the house-elves to die (which is why Hermione kissed him). You can see that Hermione's really proud of him for doing both. Until then, I don't think their relationship was on an even footing. After that, she saw him as an equal in wizarding terms and he didn't need to feel self-conscious about not being so bright.

5) "...the ghost of his last smile..." Tragic, but still so beautifully done.

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Rose Weasley - Jul 25, 2007 6:06 am (#6 of 45)
The death of Fred for me was the death that affected me the most. I didn't appreciate how great of a character he was until he was killed. If only it had hit Percy instead i don't think many people would have minded! I felt sorry for George the most as losing Fred would mean for him losing half of himself. As a side note my sister reckons that Fred being the kind of person he was would probably come back as a ghost.

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Ms Hagrid - Jul 25, 2007 6:39 am (#7 of 45)
Rose Weasley - I'm not sure I agree with your sister that Fred would come back as a ghost, but I have to admit that the thought made me smile a little. Wouldn't he and Peeves have some high old times!

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NFla Barbara - Jul 25, 2007 7:41 am (#8 of 45)
Thinking back to -- was it Nearly Headless Nick in HBP? -- earlier explanations of how someone becomes a ghost, I don't think that is the route Fred would take. It's a sort of half-existence, really, and not for someone who lived life to the fullest. I hated it when Fred died, but I think we were warned earlier in the book, when George lost a part of himself that could never be restored. No, Fred got to the station and jumped on a train, I think.

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journeymom - Jul 25, 2007 7:49 am (#9 of 45)
nthdavid, that's wonderful. I can hear Kenneth Branaugh now!

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Madam Pince - Jul 25, 2007 7:08 pm (#10 of 45)
Journeymom, you just made me go back to look in my book to see if Gilderoy Lockhart had made it out of St. Mungo's to join the Battle of Hogwarts! Thought I'd missed something!

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Solitaire - Jul 25, 2007 8:18 pm (#11 of 45)
I don't see Fred coming back as a ghost, either. He was brave, and Nick says that the brave "go on," doesn't he? Seeing that Fred had died was terribly affecting, but I think it would have been even more so had we "seen" those last moments of his life, as we did with Dobby. Barbara, you are right about George's ear being a "foreshadowing" of Fred's death, I think. Given Molly's war cry, I'm wondering if Bella got Fred, too.

Solitaire

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M A Grimmett - Jul 26, 2007 6:14 am (#12 of 45)
I think Fred would have seen in an instant that although it would be tempting to hang around with his twin, Fred would be around much longer than George--and then what would Fred do? Fred has never lacked bravery.

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Neville Longbottom - Jul 26, 2007 8:08 am (#13 of 45)
The death of Fred for me was the death that affected me the most. I didn't appreciate how great of a character he was until he was killed. If only it had hit Percy instead i don't think many people would have minded!


This is exactly the reason, why it would have been wrong, if Percy were the one to die.

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Oruma - Jul 26, 2007 1:10 pm (#14 of 45)
To Solitaire:

Molly wasn't in the general area when Fred was hit; and in the next chapter, Percy shouted Rookwood's name and try to go after him. I thought Rookwood might've been the one who killed Fred, hence Percy's reaction.

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Madam Pince - Jul 26, 2007 11:15 pm (#15 of 45)
Good thought, Oruma. I originally took that as Percy had worked in the Ministry, and Rookwood also worked in the Ministry -- presumably they had regular office contact. Percy would be outraged that someone he worked beside daily and trusted would turn out to be a DE. But... I like your idea better, I think!

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journeymom - Jul 27, 2007 9:31 am (#16 of 45)
I only read through the one time, haven't had time to check details, but I thought Fred died when a big chunk of Hogwarts fell on him. There was an explosion, right? Who created the explosion wasn't made clear. I thought!

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Chemyst - Jul 27, 2007 9:44 am (#17 of 45)
That's right, journeymom, a big explosion. Harry believed the explosion was caused by someone outside the castle who blasted through the wall because he felt cool air. No one in the group saw anything immediately before it happened either.

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Solitaire - Jul 31, 2007 8:05 pm (#18 of 45)
Journeymom, that's how I understood it, as well. I figured Percy took off after Rookwood because he was incensed that a Ministry official would be a dirty rotten DE ... and he now had a chance to do something about it!

Solitaire

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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 31, 2007 8:31 pm (#19 of 45)
From the way Bella was taunting Molly about Fred's death I thought she was the one who caused Fred's death, and that it occurred while Bella and Dolohov were battling Nymphadora and Remus. I think that Bella casued the explosion that killed Fred during the course of killing Nymphadora.

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Solitaire - Jul 31, 2007 8:40 pm (#20 of 45)
I thought she might have been responsible, too, Nathan. Her comments certainly seem like it.

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Phelim Mcintyre - Aug 1, 2007 2:28 am (#21 of 45)
The new Wizard of the Month on Jo's site is - Rowena Ravenclaw. It speaks of her death, which is not a spoiler but does fit in specifically with the Grey Lady.

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Oruma - Aug 2, 2007 12:05 am (#22 of 45)
I'd assume that Fred was killed by an AK, because there's no mention of an obvious wound on him. (I don't believe that Fred was killed by the falling debris----not at all.)

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Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 2, 2007 12:16 pm (#23 of 45)
Oruma, crushing injuries, and subdural hematomas can produce internal hemorrhaging, and internal swelling without producing noticeable external injuries.

Liz Mann - Aug 2, 2007 1:27 pm (#24 of 45)[/b]
Fred's death, for me, is the saddest of the book and is starting to affect me more now than when I first read it, thanks to a fanfic I read on deviantArt about George at Fred's funeral. I would've rather seen Bill, Charlie or Percy die. I even kind of wish that J.K. had killed off Mr Weasley back in book five as she had planned rather than kill Fred. (Although, if Mr Weasley died Fred would probably still have died too and it would have been an even bigger tragedy for the family. But if the reason she didn't kill off Mr Weasley was because she didn't want to put the family through a double tragedy, I would have preferred that she killed Mr Weasley.) I was glad to hear J.K. say that Ron goes to work with George at WWW, at least he has one of his brothers close by, even if it's not his twin. Still, a part of him will never come back, even J.K. said that he'll never fully get over it.

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freshwater - Aug 3, 2007 9:48 am (#25 of 45)
Liz, I like the idea of Ron going to work at WWW with George, at least for a while...but I read that JKR revealed in an interview that both Ron and Harry ended up as Aurors....revolutionizing the ministry and Harry ended at head of the Auror Dept.

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Chemyst - Aug 3, 2007 10:10 am (#26 of 45)
She gave one answer in the chat and another on the NBC interview — maybe Ron moonlights?

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Allison R - Aug 3, 2007 1:58 pm (#27 of 45)
I thought she said that Ron spent several years at WWW but eventually he and Harry wen to work for the Auror dept, so he did both.

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TomProffitt - Aug 3, 2007 3:23 pm (#28 of 45)
I think Rowling makes mistakes when working with out her notes, myself. I suspect that she has had many ideas for the development of various characters and sometimes forgets which answer she finally settled upon.

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freshwater - Aug 4, 2007 4:46 pm (#29 of 45)
Makes sense to me....also, I just read the Bloomsbury interview transcript yesterday, and JKR does mention a couple of time that Ron worked with George.

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rambkowalczyk - Aug 9, 2007 2:48 pm (#30 of 45)
One wonders what Draco's motivation was in the ROR. Was it to kidnap Harry for the Dark Lord or just merely to retrieve his wand. It's obvious that Crabbe has blossomed into a full fledged Death Eater, but most of the time Draco is actually arguing with Crabbe. It could be he's thinking like Crabbe in that if he bring Potter to Voldemort, things will go better for him.

I liked Percy's joke and how Fred reacted towards it just before he was killed. Fred sorta died the same why Sirius did.

I know this is me, but I find it odd that Tonks chose to be with her husband instead of her baby. One of my greatest fears as a parent was that something would happen to me and the baby would be alone.

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Choices - Aug 9, 2007 3:06 pm (#31 of 45)
The only way I can rationalize it, is to think that she thought that by fighting Voldemort (and hopefully him being defeated), her child would have a better world to grow up in, even if she was not in it.

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NFla Barbara - Aug 9, 2007 3:21 pm (#32 of 45)
I think it's also partly because she had fallen so hard for Remus...although so much of their story occurs in the background it is obvious in HBP (? - is that where her patronus changes?) that he turned her world upside down. And she was not just willing, but insistent, on their being together despite the WW prejudices against his "kind." So it made sense to me that she trusted her mother with Teddy and went to be by Remus' side.

But I think the biggest reason is that she was part of the "army" fighting against LV, and when there's a war going on, sometimes parents both leave their children behind...not because they don't care about the double risk, but because they are doing what they have promised to do.

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Soul Search - Aug 9, 2007 4:32 pm (#33 of 45)
Good thinking, previous posts, but I think it was much simpler than that. Tonks thought that Lupin was at high risk and might do something stupid. She was the trained auror. Her protecting him would mean they both survived to raise Teddy.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 9, 2007 7:23 pm (#34 of 45)
I tend to think that the conflict between Crabbe and Malfoy is due in part to the fact that unlike Crabbe, Malfoy has seen and understands the lengths to which Voldemort is capable of going. Additionally, I doubt that the Carrows would have been unable to influence Malfoy's actions.

Conversely, I tend to think that Crabbe was seduced by what the Carrows offered because, I would argue that they offered a degree of mentorship that Crabbe senior, Draco Malfoy or even Snape offered to the young Crabbe.

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M A Grimmett - Aug 10, 2007 7:13 am (#35 of 45)
Crabbe didn't have LV living in his house, showing daily what harm he would cause even casually. He didn't get the reality of what being a DE meant--I think it similar to L Malfoy the first time LV got around. Malfoy Sr seemed to jones on the power and the ability to bully, but he learned differently after LV's reappearance. Draco just wasn't a killer; he made the choice to do the best he could under extremely difficult circumstances. He couldn't have abandoned LV, not knowing what he would have done to his parents.

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Nicoline Vance - Aug 11, 2007 3:10 pm (#36 of 45)
Was it Crabbe or Goyle who was polyjuiced into a little girl while Draco worked in the Room of Requirement? Perhaps he was still bitter?

Actually, as the character is written, I think that Crabbe was just a simple minded oaf who enjoyed pushing others down. Previously, being with Draco afforded him plenty of opportunity to do that. Now, the Carrows were allowing him to crucio students who were being punished. I think he doesn't need Draco anymore.

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Oruma - Aug 12, 2007 2:37 am (#37 of 45)
If I recall correctly BOTH Crabbe and Goyle were polyjuiced into little girls in HBP.

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kingdolohov - Aug 13, 2007 6:03 am (#38 of 45)
I don't think the Rookwood thing had anything to do with Percy being upset that a Ministry employee was a Death Eater. Rookwood was in Azkaban for years and part of the mass breakout, Karkaroff turned him in. Rookwood may have returned to the Ministry under Voldemort (never working side by side with Percy before), but there's no reason why Percy should be surprised to see Rookwood as a Death Eater. He's not an idiot.

My guess is that Percy's reaction was like Ron's "I want to kill Death Eaters". He just wanted revenge in some form, regardless of who he was chasing.

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Choices - Aug 16, 2007 4:36 pm (#39 of 45)
We find out how the Bloody Baron got bloody. Murderer!

Hagrid walking through the corridor with Harry "made the floorboards quake". Did anyone else think the corridor floors were stone?

Aberforth wanted to take Slytherin kids hostage.

Ron and Hermione go down to the Chamber of Secrets. I thought it would show up again in this book, but I thought it would be more important.

Uh-Oh.....Crabbe is using Unforgivables.

The headless Hunt is there fighting, but I wonder how much actual damage they can do?

Fiendfyre - cursed fire. Doesn't sound good.

First Crabbe and then Fred. It is definitely Fred I will miss.

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icthestrals - Aug 17, 2007 8:18 am (#40 of 45)
Choices, I had always imagined the floors in the castle were stone also! Oh well.

The Headless Hunt...chill someone to death?

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freshwater - Aug 17, 2007 5:05 pm (#41 of 45)
The Bloody Baron a murderer...and the murderer of his own true love. I suppose that //would// make him cranky enough to keep Peeves in line.

As for the Headless Hunt 'chilling someone to death'...it might not kill any DE's, but it could sure distract them while dueling.

First Crabbe and then Fred....will //anyone// miss Crabbe? He turned out to be even dumber and more annoying than I'd ever expected....and way more important in book 7 than //anyone// ever guessed...go JKR!

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Chemyst - Aug 17, 2007 5:38 pm (#42 of 45)
Crabbe? More annoying, yes. But not as dumb as I'd thought. He seemed to flourish under the Carrows' tutelage. I guess it is part of the dark arts' "really meaning it" factor that he figured out.

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legolas returns - Aug 17, 2007 11:53 pm (#43 of 45)
At least in this chapter Malfoy seems to be using his brains. Crabbe and Goyle have none so they just seem intent on getting Harry rather than wondering why he wants to Diadem. They dont seem to want to obey Voldemorts orders of not killing Harry-they were like if he gets killed so what.

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freshwater - Aug 19, 2007 11:00 pm (#44 of 45)
Well, Chemyst, Crabbe did learn some new spells, like Avada Kedavra and Fiend Fire. But he was ready to disregard LV's orders simply because he himself did not understand the point of the orders....that's what I meant by dumb. He was definately more confident...but still a good example that "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing."

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PeskyPixie - Oct 4, 2007 3:16 pm (#45 of 45)
I've known that the die-dum is a horcrux from the first time I read HBP. I nearly went mad as Harry scampered around, trying to find, 'something of Ravenclaw's'!

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[Mona]

Kip Carter - Jul 19, 2007 5:43 am
Edited Jul 25, 2007 12:43 am
This thread is to discuss Only Chapter Thirty-Two - The Elder Wand of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows!


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Jenniffler - Jul 21, 2007 8:07 pm (#1 of 59)
I cried very hard at the end of this chapter. Severus pleaded, begged in fact. I never thought he would.

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wynnleaf - Jul 21, 2007 8:25 pm (#2 of 59)
Severus pleaded, begged in fact. I never thought he would. (Jennifer)

Not quite sure what you mean here. Snape didn't know the direction LV's thoughts were taking him, clearly had his doubts about whatever LV was leading up to, and kept trying to find a way out of the situation. But I didn't see any pleading or begging.

I did, however, think it was extremely sad that he died completely unappreciated and distrusted by all the living characters, and even when giving his memories to Harry, who he knew hated him, had no assurance at all that Harry would even look at them.

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Finn BV - Jul 21, 2007 9:19 pm (#3 of 59)
Did Snape ask Harry to look at him so he could see Lily's eyes one last time before he died? Or was that just me?

(By the way, Jennifler, I just noticed your name ends in 'niffler'? duh? ::smacks self on forehead ::.)

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azi - Jul 22, 2007 3:24 am (#4 of 59)
Finn, I saw Snape wanting Harry to look at him so he could see Lily's eyes for the last time, after I'd seen the memories. Before then, I assumed he was wanting to say something else before he died, but didn't manage it.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 22, 2007 9:11 am (#5 of 59)
I think Snape's request that Harry look at him was the following:

So he could see the eyes that reminded him of Lily's eyes.
So that Harry would examine the memories and see for himself and judge Snape knowing the full truth
The realization that Harry and Snape had for all these years been blind to each others deeper nature.
A plea for absolution and forgiveness for his part in death of Lily.


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essie125 - Jul 22, 2007 11:25 am (#6 of 59)
Edited by Denise P. Jul 22, 2007 6:44 pm
This and chapter Thirty-Three, were by far the most anticipated chapters of the book for me.

I was completely appalled by the way Snape died. He did not deserve to die like this and I was glad that even though Harry still believed Snape to have killed DD on LV's behalf, he to was appalled.

I did not know what to make of the silence and lack of action on Ron and Hermione's part. Didn't Hermione have some potion with her that healed wounds very quickly? But then again, it probably would not have mattered.

What was even worse, was to find out that LV did not even care that Snape had always been acting on DD's behalf. (Edit: I edited out a line that didn't happen until the next chapter. I know it was not intentional but please be careful to not spoil future chapters. Denise P. )

And then there is DD, who had wanted Snape to aquire the Elder Wand, but had failed. This led to LV killing Snape in that horrible way and all DD could say was poor Severus! What! That really pissed me off. I never liked DD and wasn't all that fussed when he died and I was glad that my instincts about DD had been right all along.

Snape was by far my fave character and his death shocked me most of all, even though I had anticipated it. What I had really hoped for, was a good heart to heart, between Harry and Snape, but what did we get, some memories.

And when Harry has the chance to reawaken people from the death, he only summons his parents, Sirius and Lupin, Snape deserved to be summoned as well. Apart from Lily he has gone through the more than any of them, trying to safe Harry. And when Harry is dead and talking to DD, why doesn't he want to talk to Snape? Why? I was really disappointed by that.

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Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 22, 2007 1:25 pm (#7 of 59)
Ok - I was wrong about Snape. One crow pie and chips for supper.

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Jenniffler - Jul 23, 2007 10:13 am (#8 of 59)
Wynleaf-- Some Quotes

"Let me find the boy. Let me bring you Potter. I know I can find him, my Lord, please."

"No my Lord, but I beg you to let me return. Let me find Potter."

"My Lord knows I seek only to serve him. But--Let me go and find the boy. Let me bring him to you. I know I can--"

"My Lord--let me go to the boy--"

That's begging and pleading. For what purpose? Ambiguous to the end!

Snape dies looking into Harry's eyes. Sniff, sob.

Finn-Thanks! No nifflers in book seven so far. I'm all for biting jewelry off of Umbridge!

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freshwater - Jul 23, 2007 11:51 am (#9 of 59)
"I'm all for biting jewelry off of Umbridge!"

LOL, Jenniffler! Now it occurs to me that H/R/H should have just imperioed a niffler and sent it into the MoM to find Umbridge! Might have been a lot less trouble! **grin** And a lot funnier!

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wynnleaf - Jul 23, 2007 2:42 pm (#10 of 59)
Not begging or pleading. Snape needed to get to Harry. It must have been such a relief, in a way, as he was dying thinking he wouldn't be able to pass on info to Harry, for Harry to suddenly show up and Snape could give him his memories.

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Jenniffler - Jul 23, 2007 4:58 pm (#11 of 59)
It must have been such a relief, in a way, as he was dying thinking he wouldn't be able to pass on info to Harry, for Harry to suddenly show up and Snape could give him his memories.

Right Wynleaf, good thought. The despair would have been awful.

I think I might have combined Lucius' concern for his son with Snape's strident attempts to get Voldemort to send him after Harry. But he did say "beg" and "please."

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HungarianHorntail11 - Jul 23, 2007 6:27 pm (#12 of 59)
I agree, wynnleaf. Thinking back upon it, it was amazing to me how much it meant to Snape to get that memory to Harry.

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Nymphadora - Jul 24, 2007 2:43 am (#13 of 59)
Severus Snape has deep knowledge of Voldemort's need to be flattered and to think that no one moves without his consent, so I see his words as the only way to persuade Voldemort to let him find Harry. Snape wouldn't be alive so long if he was proud in front of Voldemort - no one would. He just behaves the way Voldemort wants his chief DE to behave: ruthless and cruel to his inferiors, humble and wheedling to his superior. I always saw it as the hardest thing for Snape to pretend.

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Magic Words - Jul 25, 2007 5:42 am (#14 of 59)
Looking at Snape's repeated requests to be allowed to find Harry, notice that he starts to panic a little at the end. He starts out asking to find Potter and bring him to Voldemort, but by the end he's asking to "go to" him. Not really the words you'd use if you were planning to search for someone, locate them, and then drag them back with you.

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gankomon - Jul 25, 2007 8:57 am (#15 of 59)
Magic Words- excellent catch. I confess I had not noted how Snape's request to be allowed to "bring Potter" had turned into a plea to be allowed to "go to Potter". And by that point, it seems clear that Snape knew he was doomed, but wanted to put it off just long enough to get to Harry. He knew how important that was- the entire Dumbledore plan absolutely depended on it.

Jenniffler- I agree complettely that Snape's relief when Harry suddnely appeared as he lay dying must have been excruciating.

Much more to say, but will post in the next chapter thread....

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geauxtigers - Jul 25, 2007 1:00 pm (#16 of 59)
One of the other titles according to Leaky is Harry Potter and the Elder Wand Someone at the midnight reading said JKR did like a sort of Q&A before reading, and said that one of the other titles was a chapter in the book, and that it was Ch. 32. So That would make it this one, and the title does work for the book.

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legolas returns - Jul 25, 2007 3:46 pm (#17 of 59)
I was wondering a couple of things

At the end of HBP Snape could tell what spell Harry was going to use even at a great distance.

I was wondering if he heard Harry or Lunas footsteps or he could sense the strong emotion of hatred eminating from Harry. He seems to search the air around McGonnagal for something. When he asks her if she has seen Harry he is looking into her eyes. Legilimency?

I agree that Snape gets more panicky that he will not be able to pass the memories on.

Later after Snape has been bitten Harry moves towards him and does not know why he is doing it. I was wondering if Snape could plant a thought into Harrys head without using the imperius curse/confundus. He can read Harrys thoughts with ease so why cant he plant a little thought?

When he gets Harry to look into his eyes he sees Lily living through Harry. I am not sure whether Snape relies on Harrys curiosity to find out what the memories contained or whether he might have planted something in Harrys head to ensure that he went and checked the memories out.

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Chemyst - Jul 25, 2007 4:18 pm (#18 of 59)
Hermione had never seen the Pensieve in use and wouldn't have had practical experience in getting memories in a bottle. Harry went almost straight to DD's office after getting Slughorn's memory, so she never saw what that looked like. Yet she had the presence of mind to hand Harry a flask when he didn't know what to do. Nice touch, but a bit odd.

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totyle - Jul 25, 2007 5:52 pm (#19 of 59)
I dont know...I thought it was just common sense of Hermione at that point. Stuff was leaking out..Snape said to take it..so she conjured up a container.

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Potteraholic - Jul 25, 2007 7:27 pm (#20 of 59)
totyle: "I dont know...I thought it was just common sense of Hermione at that point. Stuff was leaking out..Snape said to take it..so she conjured up a container."

That's what I was thinking. Sometimes, we the sometimes obsessive fans , try to read too much into different characters' actions when all they are are just acts of common sense, nothing more, nothing less.

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Solitaire - Jul 25, 2007 8:28 pm (#21 of 59)
Legolas ... Snape knew Harry would know what to do with those memories and where to find the Pensieve. I also think Snape was counting on his remembering the events he witnessed on the tower and filling in the blanks in order to realize what he needed to know about the Elder Wand.

Solitaire

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M A Grimmett - Jul 26, 2007 6:17 am (#22 of 59)
Harry also collected a memory from Sluggy last book. Hermione probably would have remembered his describing it.

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legolas returns - Jul 26, 2007 10:22 am (#23 of 59)
I didnt mean it like that. Harry might have still been to mad at Snape for killing Dumbledore/too busy to look at the memories. It was not 100% certain that he was going to do it.

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Solitaire - Jul 26, 2007 12:25 pm (#24 of 59)
Snape already knows any time there is a Pensieve and memories to inspect ... Harry's going to have a peek.

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haymoni - Jul 29, 2007 9:36 am (#25 of 59)
The first time I read this part, I wasn't even sure what the stuff was. What is oozing out of Snape??? It was bluish - is that Draught of the Living Dead? Or was that purple? I couldn't figure out why Harry had to collect it.

It wasn't until I read the next chapter that I realized what it was and I had to go back & read it again.

"Look at me." He knows he's going to die and he wants to look at those eyes one last time.

Oh, Gina - you are vindicated!

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Columbine Fairy - Aug 1, 2007 2:13 pm (#26 of 59)
One thing that confuses me here, is that at one point Dumbledore says he intended Snape to get the wand, and at another, I think Harry points out Dumbledore planned a natural death, ending the power of the wand.

Snape never impressed me much. Whatever sacrifices he was making for Harry, that was no excuse for the way he treated him for 6 years. However, it did occur to me that Snape needn't have died at all, and paid the ultimate sacrifice, in the end, protecting someone else: Draco. I am sure that Snape would have realised Draco's claim to the wand, but chose not to point it out to Voldemort. I don't know if he knew about Harry having Draco's wand, but it impressed me all the same.

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Oruma - Aug 2, 2007 12:10 am (#27 of 59)
Perhaps Dumbledore intended to take the Power of the Elder Wand with him when he died an undefeated death, and that Snape will keep the actual Wand itself.

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Choices - Aug 2, 2007 10:50 am (#28 of 59)
Can you explain how Dumbledore could do that?

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Magic Words - Aug 2, 2007 4:44 pm (#29 of 59)
Choices, if Dumbledore had retained the wand until Snape killed him, he would have died undefeated (since he planned his death with Snape and Snape couldn't defeat him). Therefore, the wand wouldn't be able to work for anyone else, since it can only work for a person who has defeated its previous master.

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wynnleaf - Aug 2, 2007 6:13 pm (#30 of 59)
As regards whether or not Snape knew about the Elder wand, didn't it look like Voldemort thought Snape had figured it out?

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Choices - Aug 3, 2007 8:18 am (#31 of 59)
Edited Aug 3, 2007 9:58 am
Magic Words, thanks for the explanation, but I understand that. What I don't understand is how the power of the Elder Wand can be separated from the wand itself. Dumbledore kept the power of the wand, but Snape could keep the actual wand? What point would there be in that? If the wand had no power, why would Snape want it? I think I'm confusing myself. :-(

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Soul Search - Aug 3, 2007 8:55 am (#32 of 59)
My read was since Snape would have AK'd Dumbledore without any resistance on Dumbledore's part the Elder Wand would not "choose" Snape as its new master. The Wand would be buried with Dumbledore, so its special power would be lost.

I gathered that this was only a slight variation of Dumbledore's original intention, that is, to die while still the Elder Wand's master so its power would not transfer to anyone else. Dumbledore did not let on that his was the Elder Wand so no one would want to challenge him for it. Anyone who defeats Harry in a duel becomes the Elder Wand's new master.

JKR has said Harry becomes an Auror, so the opportunity for conflict is high.

Harry is planning a similar thing, but it may not work as well. Harry revealed that the Elder Wand existed and he was its master during his final confrontation with Voldemort, so the story will get out. Returning the Wand to Dumbledore's tomb doesn't assure no one will find it or try to fight Harry for it.

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Luna Logic - Aug 3, 2007 9:12 am (#33 of 59)
Your post makes great sense, Soul Search... Harry's life could be not so quiet...

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wynnleaf - Aug 3, 2007 9:20 am (#34 of 59)
Very good point, Soul Search. Apparently, all it would take is for someone to disarm Harry during any confrontation and he'd no longer be the master of the wand. And furthermore, after his speech to Voldemort in front of many, many people, it's public knowledge that Harry is the master of the Elder Wand.

Sort of funny, you know. JKR said that she'd clearly resolved and ended Harry's story. But when you look closely, she perhaps inadvertently set him up for untold numbers of nasty wizards to come "gunning" for him, just to get mastership of the Elder wand.

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freshwater - Aug 3, 2007 9:53 am (#35 of 59)
*rumble, rumble, rumble**

What's that sound in the distance? Oh, no....clear a path! It's a screaming horde of rabid plot bunnies thundering by in their search for an unoccupied fanfic author! Stand aside lest you be trampled!

Sorry...I couldn't resist! **snicker**

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Columbine Fairy - Aug 3, 2007 3:02 pm (#36 of 59)
Personally, I'd think it a little foolish to go after the wizard who defeated Voldemort at 17, especially if he's had Auror training. A question, though: would it be possible to disarm someone if they were wearing one of Fred and George's sheild bracelets, given that Expelliarmus is classed as a minor jinx? I was also wondering whether you could win the power of the Elder wand if the loser of the duel was actually using a different wand, but that has to be the case as Harry won the allegience of it by taking Draco's hawthorn wand.

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mona amon - Aug 3, 2007 9:00 pm (#37 of 59)
Apparently, all it would take is for someone to disarm Harry during any confrontation and he'd no longer be the master of the wand. (Wynnleaf)

Merely disarming him would not be enough. They would have to disarm him of the Elder Wand (as Draco did to DD), and since he wasn't going to use the Elder Wand, this would be impossible.

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Phelim Mcintyre - Aug 4, 2007 1:00 am (#38 of 59)
mona amon - this comment is a spoiler so I've put it in white. Harry disarmed Malfoy when he had his hawthorn wand and the elder wand was his. May be it is to do with the wand as Harry had the hawthorn wand when he battled Voldemort. As Harry now has his own wand back this may not affect the ownership issue. What do people think?

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Oruma - Aug 4, 2007 4:49 am (#39 of 59)
Mona Amon,

Negative. Harry Disarmed Draco by seizing the Hawthorn wand. That is enough for Harry to take control and become master of the Elder Wand. Hence, Disarming Harry of his phoenix wand would be quite enough to take over the Elder Wand.

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journeymom - Aug 4, 2007 12:23 pm (#40 of 59)
Isn't this thread labeled with a spoiler warning? The whole forum is out of spoiler mode, now! You need not worry about spoiling the book for anybody, Phelim!

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zelmia - Aug 4, 2007 5:24 pm (#41 of 59)
And when Harry has the chance to reawaken people from the death, he only summons his parents, Sirius and Lupin, Snape deserved to be summoned as well. - And this surpises you, why?
Harry summons those who could bring him peace and comfort, whom he had looked to throughout his life for the strength to go on.
Snape was not among them because he never brought Harry either strength or peace, even if his last act was to bring Harry understanding. Whether or not Snape "deserved" to be summoned is irrelevant. It is Harry's choice whom he wishes to have accompany him to his Death. He chose those who had always accompanied him, in some form, in Life.

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Potteraholic - Aug 4, 2007 11:39 pm (#42 of 59)
Well said, zelmia!

My understanding of how the stone worked was exactly as you worded it in your post: "It is Harry's choice whom he wishes to have accompany him to his Death. He chose those who had always accompanied him, in some form, in Life."

Yes, Snape's death helped save Harry's life, as well as Snape's own soul, but that didn't entitle him to be in Harry's 'honor guard' as he marched towards certain death. It entitled him to Harry's respect, nothing more, which he got in the end.

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Phelim Mcintyre - Aug 5, 2007 2:37 am (#43 of 59)
Harry disarmed Malfoy when he had his hawthorn wand and the elder wand was his. May be it is to do with the wand as Harry had the hawthorn wand when he battled Voldemort. As Harry now has his own wand back this may not affect the ownership issue. Re this comment that I posted in white. Draco used his hawthorn wand to disarm Dumbledore and there by got control of the elder wand. Harry the disarmed Draco and got control of both wands. At the time Harry's holly wand was out of action. It is possible that by using his Holly wand, which did not battle either of Draco's wands, the power of the elder wand is diminished.

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mona amon - Aug 5, 2007 5:16 am (#44 of 59)
Harry Disarmed Draco by seizing the Hawthorn wand. That is enough for Harry to take control and become master of the Elder Wand. Hence, Disarming Harry of his phoenix wand would be quite enough to take over the Elder Wand. (Oruma)

Oruma, when Draco disarmed DD on the tower, he defeated the Elder Wand because DD died without regaining possession of it. But Draco never touched it either. Consequently, the Elder Wand recognised whoever owned the wand that defeated it as it's master, first Draco and then Harry.

The Phoenix wand never 'defeated' the Elder wand. So disarming Harry of it or grabbing it out of his hand will not make one master of the Elder Wand.

It is possible that by using his Holly wand, which did not battle either of Draco's wands, the power of the elder wand is diminished.

Phelim, I think this is quite possible. Will have to give it more thought!

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Chemyst - Aug 5, 2007 8:38 am (#45 of 59)
It is possible that by using his Holly wand, which did not battle either of Draco's wands, the power of the elder wand is diminished. - Phelim
I think this is quite possible. Will have to give it more thought! - mona amon

This is a "chapter folder" but we are allowing spoilers now, and even though we learn this in a future chapter it would fit with Mona's question —

The Holly Wand was "healed" by the Elder Wand and I'm wondering if any of its power could have been transferred at that time?

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Prefect Marcus - Aug 5, 2007 9:00 am (#46 of 59)
One thing to keep in mind is that all this defeating, taking away by force, and such things like it are not a hard and fast rule. "The wand chooses the wizard". If all wands had to follow a specific rule of succession, it could hardly be called a choice, now could it?

The Elder Wand "chooses" to strictly follow this rule. Other wands may or may not be so inclined.

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zelmia - Aug 5, 2007 9:39 am (#47 of 59)
But apparently all wands do follow the "rule". Harry's wand "defeated" Lucius's, which at the time was being used by Voldemort, of its own accord in the Escape from Privet Drive. It might have been during this passage from OP:

Harry flung the prophecy across the floor, Neville spun himself around on his back and scooped the ball ito his chest. Malfoy pointed the wand instead at Neville, but Harry jabbed his own wand back over his shoulder ad yelled, "Impedimenta!"
Malfoy was blasted off his back...

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mona amon - Aug 5, 2007 6:36 pm (#48 of 59)
Zelmia, it would have worked just as well against any other wand that Voldemort had borrowed. DD gives a detailed explanation about why Harry's wand behaved the way it did in the King's Cross chapter.

He says Harry's wand imbibed some of the powers and qualities of Voldemort's wand during their GOF encounter. During the Privet Drive chase, it recognised Voldemort as both kin and mortal enemy, and regurgitated some of his own magic against him.

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zelmia - Aug 6, 2007 11:27 am (#49 of 59)
Oh. Well, thanks for that. I have lent my book to my housemate so I'll re-read more thoroughly when I get it back.

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Sparrowhawk - Aug 6, 2007 12:25 pm (#50 of 59)
IMO, this helps understand what DD originally planned. Had everything happened as expected, the Elder wand would have lost its power because DD would have died unvanquished (Snape having acted on orders), while in the final confrontation Harry would have had his own holly and phoenix feather wand, strengthened by its contact with LV's own yew and phoenix feather wand (as seen in the beginning of DH).

What eventually happened was that DD's plan didn't unfold as expected: Draco unknowingly became the master of the Elder wand, and Harry broke his holly and phoenix feather wand... The consequences might have been disastrous, but in fact DD's plans backfired on LV himself. Harry accidentally became the true master of the Elder wand (when he took Draco's hawthorn wand), while LV wrongly believed that the wand was his at last, after Snape's murder. We all know how it ended... )

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Luna Logic - Aug 7, 2007 6:56 am (#51 of 59)
So, there was no "need" to Harry to have Draco's wand to defeat Voldemort?

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TomProffitt - Aug 7, 2007 8:17 am (#52 of 59)
So, there was no "need" to Harry to have Draco's wand to defeat Voldemort? --- Luna Logic

"Harry saw Voldemort's green jet meet his own spell, saw the Elder Wand fly high, dark against the sunrise, spinning across the enchanted ceiling like the head of Nagini, spinning through the air toward the master it would not kill, who had come to take full possession of it at last." (DH, Scholastic, pp. 743-744)[/b]

I would say that Rowling thought that there was a need.

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rambkowalczyk - Aug 10, 2007 4:39 am (#53 of 59)
I tend to agree with Prefect Marcus that the wand rules aren't set in stone. The wand does have a choice.

Other things:

Voldemort thinks Draco betrayed him or at least taunts Lucius with it. It may be that the Death Eaters thought the same thing when confronting Draco in the castle. Draco pleading with the Death Eater makes sense even if he defected. (which he probably didnt because he didn't want his parents to be hurt). Ron might have misjudged him.

Hagrid's death was ironic. (At this point I thought what Harry did).

I loved Luna's scene. It seems as though Harry's friendship with her has made her more grounded in reality than before.

Are you a wizard or what?

This is Hermione's response to Ron's comment in SS when they were caught in the Devil's Snare and Hermione said they didn't have matches.

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haymoni - Aug 10, 2007 3:51 pm (#54 of 59)
"There's no wood! Honestly!"

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Choices - Aug 16, 2007 4:52 pm (#55 of 59)
I must say I am impressed with Hermione's performance in this book. Without all the new spells she can perform, Harry and Ron would be goners. She has certainly done her homework, which is more than I can say for Ron, and Harry to a lesser extent.

Patroni - Luna - silver hare, Ernie - a boar, and Seamus - a fox.

"'I have a problem, Severus,' said Voldemort softly." Now there's an understatement. LOL

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Magic Words - Aug 16, 2007 6:17 pm (#56 of 59)
I was pretty dense at that point. I went through the whole "I have a problem" bit thinking "What is this? Voldemort would never admit that sort of uncertainty even to his closest supporters... JKR is kinda losing her touch, isn't she?" Then was hit over the head with a sledgehammer when I realized he was only doing it because Snape wouldn't live to tell anyone else.

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Joanna Lupin - Oct 1, 2007 11:41 am (#57 of 59)
A thing struck me today, remember we discussed how Snape was left in the dark about the wand? What if he was not??? When Voldemort told Snape that he took the Elder Wand from Dumbledore's tomb. "Snape was marble white. His face was like a death mask." (Quote from memory) Snape respected Dumbledore, I know, perhaps even loved him, but wasn't his reaction slightly exaggerated? What if he understood exactly what Voldemort lying hands on that wand meant?

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PeskyPixie - Oct 1, 2007 11:50 am (#58 of 59)
And right after turning 'marble white' he says, 'My Lord - let me go to the boy-'. Snape obviously makes some connection here.

Perhaps he has heard of this legendary wand and realizes that as he is DD's killer, he is therefore now in danger of losing his life and needs to fulfill his last mission for DD?

Or does he know enough about wandlore to understand that he can never be the true owner as he is DD's ally and that Draco is the master by disarming DD against his will?

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Joanna Lupin - Oct 1, 2007 1:06 pm (#59 of 59)
Right! I forgot about his plea to go search for Harry. It makes perfect sense for him to know about the wand, doesn't it?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

[Mona]

Kip Carter - Jul 19, 2007 5:47 am
Edited Jul 25, 2007 12:43 am
This thread is to discuss Only Chapter Thirty-Three - The Prince's Tale of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows!


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Cerpin Taxt - Jul 21, 2007 3:24 pm (#1 of 201)
I am very glad that Snape turned out to be out for Harry and not for Voldemort. I would have been very irked if it had turned out Snape was working for Voldemort. I would have never guessed Snape and Lily's relationship would have span to before they were at Hogwarts.

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wynnleaf - Jul 21, 2007 5:43 pm (#2 of 201)
I was very please to learn that much of Snape's backstory was exactly what I'd suspected. Many had wondered if Snape was "that awful boy" and indeed he was. The idea that Lily knew Snape well before Hogwarts was excellent. And now we know that Spinners End was his childhood home, he really was poor and from a possibly abusive family.

It's interesting what JKR didn't answer in this backstory. I thought we'd learn more about the werewolf prank incident. Sure, we heard a bit more of Snape's perspective, but we never learn any more of the facts about it.

I found Snape's motivations and development from young man turning to Dumbledore up to his time during Harry's student years quite fascinating. When Snape turned to Dumbledore, his only motivation seemed to be Lily. By the time of the last few years of the books, he seems motivated to protect all of the students , he asserts he won't just stand and watch people die if it's possible to save them, and Dumbledore seems convinced that Snape has grown to protect Harry, at least somewhat, for Harry's own sake, even if Snape asserts that it's still only for Lily.

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Nymphadora - Jul 21, 2007 5:49 pm (#3 of 201)
Wynnleaf, I was pleased at those words too - and annoyed at Dumbledore for wanting to rub it in... it was salt on Snape's wound, that he should care for his rival's son. I kept thinking that Lily's eyes were the only part Severus really wanted to care for in Harry, especially since he asked to look at them one last time before he died - so he believed but he proved otherwise in the end.

SO glad he was no turncloak

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TomProffitt - Jul 21, 2007 7:19 pm (#4 of 201)
I was very satisfied with Snape's backstory. It appears to me that Snape is, and always has been, evil (more or less) but is not a Death Eater at all. I think Snape has always hated and despised Harry, and not just for his being James's son (which is quite a lot in Snape's mind). Snape only ever cared for Lily and is saving Harry (and doing everything else Dumbledore demands) without ever really understanding exactly how this is helping Lily.

Fascinating despicable character. If Dumbledore had told him he had to kill people (even innocents) to honor Lily, Snape would have done it gladly.

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Kevin Corbett - Jul 21, 2007 7:52 pm (#5 of 201)
Oh ho. I heartily disagree. I think this proves he was not evil, at least not anymore. At least, I don't think JKR would say so. Snape always did love Lily, and from that arose his desire to betray Voldemort. But I don't know how you can find him despicable...he is flawed, but I don't think you could, in the end, call him more despicable than James. Furthermore, Snape, to his dying breath, was despised and mistrusted by almost everyone except Lily and Dumbledore. I think you are really misinterpreting his love for Lily as that of a stalker, which I think is unjustified. He did come out from the bushes. I just don't think he could have produced the doe patronus if his love had been this sort of sick obsession you chalk it up to.

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wynnleaf - Jul 21, 2007 7:55 pm (#6 of 201)
If Dumbledore had told him he had to kill people (even innocents) to honor Lily, Snape would have done it gladly. (TomProffitt)

Although in DH, in this chapter, we see Snape appalled that DD "kept him alive so that he could die at the right moment." DD recognizes this as shock, "Don't be shocked, Severus. How many men and women have you watched die?"

(note: not "how many men and women have you killed.")

Snape answers, "Lately, only those whom I could not save."

So I think, since JKR seems to be using this chapter to give us the true story of Snape, we should believe Snape on this one.

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Thom Matheson - Jul 21, 2007 8:08 pm (#7 of 201)
Well I must say that crow doesn't taste like chicken, but Severus turning out the way he did does not upset me. Being firmly in the Bad camp, Rowling wrote his finish really well for me and I am gladly eating all but the feathers on this one. Very cool to see that he grew up with Lily and "Tunia" and all were playground friends prior to entering Hogwarts. The Tunia letter to Dumbledore was great.

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TomProffitt - Jul 21, 2007 8:22 pm (#8 of 201)
After a bit of reflection I think I should back up a bit on Severus Snape.

I still find him despicable.

In my opinion Snape's moral compass is a few degrees off of true north. I think Snape understands right from wrong in terms of what he should and should not do, but I don't think that his "heart", for lack of a better, word is in it. I don't think ever cared for anyone other than Lily Evans. He was not a stalker, but someone who genuinely cared for her and never managed to care for anyone else.

Snape respected Dumbledore, but I don't believe he cared for him. Snape never respected Harry, but knew what he had to do in regards to Harry to stop Voldemort and honor Lily. Snape chose flight over fighting in Hogwarts, not because he was a coward, nor because he cared for those loyal to Dumbledore, but because he knew that to defeat Lord Voldemort he needed to let as many live as he possibly could.

A man truly good in his soul could never have filled the role that Severus Snape filled. A great many moral compromises were required for Snivelus to fool Voldemort. Compromises few others could make.

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Kevin Corbett - Jul 21, 2007 8:36 pm (#9 of 201)
Well, I have to respectfully disagree. As far as caring for Dumbledore, I will, at the risk of sounding sanctimonious, quote Luke's gospel, "To whom much is forgiven, he loveth much; and to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little." I think Snape might have cared for Dumbledore as much as anyone, and more than some. I sincerely think this was the case.

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Jenniffler - Jul 21, 2007 8:57 pm (#10 of 201)
I rather eat crow than doe at this point. Heap it on! Dumbledore believed and hinted to Snape that Harry was a Horcrux. I started screaming at the the book at his paragraph. On the bright side, my saving people to deactivate horcruxes theory showed up 5 out of 7 times by this time, so no worries.

Weeping was a prerequisite for this whole chapter. Snape had a heart and actually used it. "What about my soul?" are not words of a Death Eater.

Jo Rowling, that was a most satisfiying chapter. Thank you!

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Finn BV - Jul 21, 2007 9:24 pm (#11 of 201)
Just have to say, I was right! Yay!

All the 'evidence' was Jo was blasting us in the face with in the second chapter of HBP and in the first chapter of DH I thought was too early on to be giving anything like this away, so I took it as negative evidence.

Who would call Petunia 'Tuney'? That's almost as weird as 'Cissy'.

By the way, I have to say that Chemyst was quite close in her "assertion of the credit/blame" of DD's death. (I was just reading this thread the other day, and really liked her theory on this -- she just switched the cave potion with the curse of the ring.)

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azi - Jul 22, 2007 3:33 am (#12 of 201)
I seem to be agreeing with you on everything Finn! I also found 'Tunia' a weird nickname. Pet would make more sense to me.

I still don't like Snape, despite his backstory. He joined the Death Eaters, he did evil things, and only realised it was wrong when the person he cared about/loved got killed, not when she told him that what he was doing was wrong. At least he tried to make up for it in the end, even I grudingly admire him for that.

Anyone else sad we didn't find out if the MPISM theory was correct? I suppose that's an open answer.

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Muggle Doctor - Jul 22, 2007 3:57 am (#13 of 201)
Who would call Petunia 'Tuney'?

A little girl, of course. Namely, less-than-eleven-year-old Lily. I've seen kids run with siblings' pet names long after they'd become old enough to pronounce them.

I was very pleased for the outcome here. It was fairly obvious that Snape had loved Lily - it had never been made clear before that for at least some of that time, Lily had loved him back. The story of his drift towards the Death Eaters and Lily's rejection of him is Snape's true tragedy. I wonder if he did it because of negative feelings inspired by Petunia.

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hellocello3200 - Jul 22, 2007 6:41 am (#14 of 201)
Tom Proffitt, I disagree with Snape being "dispicable" but you are correct in saying he was the only man for the job. I think Dumbledore recognized the usefulness of someone who could sit in a Death Eater meeting and calmly watch the murder of a colleage.

You could hardly see someone like Harry doing many of the necessary things Snape did, one of which is kill Dumbledore. Whether Snape was able to perform his job because he did not care for Dumbledore greatly, or because he is able to put emotions aside and follow logic are of course up for debate.

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TomProffitt - Jul 22, 2007 6:52 am (#15 of 201)
For me the dispiciable part of Snape is his motivation more than his actions. Do people do good for goodness sake, or do they do good because it is what (in Snape's case) must be done?

Snape through out the series often chose not to do good, or chose something bordering on evil, when his doing good was not mandated.

The ultimate goal towards which Snape worked was a good one, and for that I respect that work, but he did not choose to do it because it was good, and for that I despise him.

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wynnleaf - Jul 22, 2007 7:16 am (#16 of 201)
In my opinion, this chapter doesn't give a clear picture of exactly what his later motivations were. Yes, Snape told Dumbledore that his care was for Lily, when he showed Dumbledore that his patronus was still the doe. But that doesn't explain his perspective when, at least as a man in his thirties (if not when he was a young man of early twenties), he would no longer stand by and watch people die without attempting to save them. Or his willingness to protect all of the students. There's no "loving Lily" reason for that. His feeling about Lily can explain protecting Harry, but not the rest.

And earlier in the chapter we now see that he had protected Remus. A Death Eater was pointing his wand directly at Lupin's back and Snape attempted to stop the Death Eater from hurting Lupin. Yet we know he disliked Lupin and, as a former Marauder, Snape still had a grudge against him. No love for Lily adequately explains why Snape was protecting Lupin at that point.

Sure, protecting Harry because of love for Lily explains a desire for the overall goals of the Order to be met and to destroy Voldemort, but it doesn't explain the other things in this chapter that show his willingness and desire to protect others beyond Harry.

For whatever reasons Snape joined Voldemort (and we're still never told exactly what his reasons and motivations were), he seems to have made some major changes in his perspective and motivations over the years.

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Ms Hagrid - Jul 22, 2007 7:20 am (#17 of 201)
I wonder how Snape would have treated Harry all these years if he had been the "spitting image" of Lily, instead of just "having his mothers eyes"....

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hellocello3200 - Jul 22, 2007 8:02 am (#18 of 201)
I think Lily may have been the catalsyt for Snape's change of loyalty. He knew she was good, and a capable witch and when he saw that Voldemort's victims were not his image of incompetent "mudbloods" but instead someone like her. I think his decision was made in honor of Lily's memory. That's different than just doing good things so he can have her for himself (not that he didn't want that at first, but he didn't ever stop, not after her death).

Ms Hagrid, I think it would have been a little akward for all involved if Harry had been a red-headed Harriet

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Ms Hagrid - Jul 22, 2007 8:11 am (#19 of 201)
Oh my, I didn't think of that! I confess I was thinking more of a young boy who was the spitting image of his mother..... (one of my nephews looks exactly like my sister, expressions and everything - it's eerie).

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hellocello3200 - Jul 22, 2007 8:17 am (#20 of 201)
I didn't think you did, the idea just popped into my head. I think no matter the gender or appearance of the child, I think Snape would have resented that fact that it was James' kid with his last name, and his quidditch skills. We'll never know for sure.

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Kevin Corbett - Jul 22, 2007 10:07 am (#21 of 201)
I've been thinking of something: I think this was why Snape always seemed to dislike Neville as much as he did Harry. He passed on the prophecy probably thinking Voldemort would interpret Neville as the one "born as the seventh month dies" because he was pureblood---knowing LV's obsessions with blood purity, he probably wouldn't have thought it possible for him to think a half-blood his greatest threat. So whenever he saw Neville, either he was reminded of his own folly or, more probably, his resentment was stirred that Neville was alive and Lily was dead. But I think that he can be forgiven, in some measure, because he didn't act on this dislike in the ways he did to Harry, even when Dumbledore was gone and there was no one to stop him or Harry around to preoccupy his resentment and regret.

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Madam Pince - Jul 22, 2007 11:05 am (#22 of 201)
Edited Jul 22, 2007 1:17 pm
Favorite. Chapter. Ever.

I've been waiting years to read this, and it is good to know that the lay of the land really was the way most of us "pro-Snapers" suspected. (I was tee-totally wrong about the Harry-horcrux, apparently, though. And alas, R.I.P. my "Snape-Was-At-Godric's-Hollow" theory! ***although I still contend it was pure genius... grumble...grumble...*** But then again, so was my Perseus Evans theory. Actually, I came marginally close on that one -- at least I had it right that Snape knew Lily when they were little kids... and I got "that awful boy" right...)

I knew someone named "Tunie" once, although it wasn't short for "Petunia." (It was Mildred, of all things...) But anyway, the name didn't seem odd to me. It sounded like something a younger sister would say when she was trying to pronounce "Petunia" but couldn't say it properly, and it just stuck over the years. Interesting that Petunia wanted desperately to go to Hogwarts. Jealousy is an awful, awful thing, and it can eat someone alive even after years and years, can't it?

Whether Snape was able to perform his job because he did not care for Dumbledore greatly, or because he is able to put emotions aside and follow logic are of course up for debate. -- To answer this one, I would submit Snape's comments to Harry from HBP about "...fools who wear their hearts on their sleeves" being easy prey for Voldemort. Snape is an extraordinary man; he can put his emotions aside and get the job done -- he did so on many occasions.

Do people do good for goodness sake, or do they do good because it is what (in Snape's case) must be done? -- I don't see the distinction here. What must be done, must be done for goodness' sake. Yes, he said he thought he was helping Harry because it was in a way helping Lily, but that does not explain all the other good things he did that had nothing to do with Lily (saving Lupin, protecting Hogwarts students from the Carrows, etc.) I can't put it any better than wynnleaf did earlier, so I won't even try.

I'm still holding out hope -- what did Snape mean in his final memory that he "...has a plan..."??? I'm hoping against hope that he made a horcrux for himself when he killed Dumbledore... He's a Slytherin after all, and Phineaus Nigellus told us they look after their own skins, and why waste a perfectly good (justified) killing like Dumbledore's as the perfect opportunity for a horcrux? Can't tell me he doesn't know how to do it -- he studied the Dark Arts obsessively.

And why the heck isn't Dumbledore in his portrait to talk to Harry? Where could he be?

Poor little Teddy Lupin. So Remus and Tonks sort of mirror James and Lily, I suppose. Honestly I'm sort of surprised that Tonks left the baby and came back to fight.

I'm really ticked at myself that I still don't know what "I open at the close" means.

I'm afraid to keep reading... But I still just know Harry's not going to die! Or at least, he won't stay dead... There's still the Hallows that conquer death or whatever the line is... ***stubbornly puts on rose-colored glasses, and takes deep breath to keep reading...***

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essie125 - Jul 22, 2007 12:03 pm (#23 of 201)
Wow!, the most anticipated HP chapter ever and it was great.

Though I nust confess, I'd rather had seen Snape tell Harry this story himself, but the memories are more thruthful. Snape was dying and his life was flashing before his eyes. And all his memories were Lily related.

I always knew Snape loved Lily. And he detested Harry, because he was James son and he had Lily's eyes. Harry was Snape's reminder of what kind of live he could have had, had he not 'gone bad'. (teenagers are so easy to influence, especially those who have never really had friends, like Snape)

And why was DD, constantly taunting Snape in the memories. I did not like how he behaved towards Snape at all and still Snape does his bidding.

DD loved power, but Snape loved it to, the difference was that Snape abused the power he had as a teacher to be mean to his students. Some of you have suggested that Snape was evil, but I've never seen him do anything to physically hurt his students. Psychological bullying was more his thing, and probably the only thing he knew from his parents.

'My word, Severus, that I shall never reveal the best of you?' Dumbledore sighed, looking down into Snape's ferocious, anguished face. 'If you you insist...' This was the memory that affected me most.

Personally, I feel DD, really used Snape and I was horrified to see DD's treatment of Snape. I pitied Snape, I've always pitied Snape, but after DH I really feel sorry for him.

The fact that I'm a fan of Alan Rickman doesn't help, for I already saw that scene play out in my head. Alan being bitten in the neck by Nagini. Only joking, I'm not that sad and I know Alan will play the part. But I really feel that Snape has been pulling the short straw his entire life.

He will be sadly missed, very sadly missed!

R.I.P. Severus Snape!

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Allison R - Jul 22, 2007 12:17 pm (#24 of 201)
Holy Hannah! This chapter is going to give us stuff to chew on for a long time to come. It made me think about what Sirius told Harry in OotP about no one being completely good or completely evil, and how our choices define us...

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TomProffitt - Jul 22, 2007 12:26 pm (#25 of 201)
I think that the only way that Harry would have accepted the truth about Severus and his motivations was to see the memories from Severus's own head.

First, Severus could never have related the truth to Harry in such an unbiased and objective fashion as the pensieve. And second, Harry would not accept the truth from Severus; he would be more likely to accept the true story from Voldemort than Snape.

And I think, I would not have accepted the truth from Severus's tongue either. I believe that Severus blamed James & Sirius for driving he and Lily apart from the first time they met on the train. He always wanted to blame them for what could have been rather than accept the truth that he was responsible for his own actions. Snape possessed enough integrity to make amends for his actions, but through his treatment of Harry, I think we can see that he never stopped wanting to blame his predicament on someone else.

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poohnpiglettt - Jul 22, 2007 2:48 pm (#26 of 201)
I see a set up coming--i think that although it is leading us to think harry must die, at the end, the final battle, that seemingly unimportant snitch will come into play--i think the "i open at the close" line means at the very end of everything, when he really needs it, just before harry's about to die, the snitch will do something, release something, to save him. I think this is reinforced by dd telling snape he can't tell him everything and harry can only know what he needs to know at the right time. DD knows how the different students will act, knows, for instance, that ron would get frustrated and leave but would ultimately do the right thing and come back so he gave him the tool he needed. Knowing harry even better, he knows that harry will do the right thing and put himself up for sacrifice for the better good but he has given him the right tool (the snitch) that he needs.

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Ann - Jul 22, 2007 5:02 pm (#27 of 201)
A very satisfying chapter, in terms of explaining things we've all been arguing about for years and years. I was right in supporting Snape loved Lily, that that was the reason for Dumbledore's trust, and that DD made Snape kill him. I was wrong to dismiss Harry-was-a-Horcrux. Oh well.

Two things about this chapter, one really good, the other really bad:

The bad one is that (as I've said elsewhere) JKR really cheated us by not saying a single word about Harry's reaction to Snape's memories as he sees them. This is a really important change in Harry's view of the world, and we are not given any idea of how the memories affect him of what he feels. I think this is the biggest flaw in the entire book, and it's a very strange omission. And because of the bombshell at the end, we never get any clue about how he reacts to his mother's friendship with Snape nor to the reason he killed Dumbledore. I wonder whether this is too much editing, or whether JKR was just so focused on getting all the information across to us that she didn't show us much of Harry here. A HUGE disappointment.

The second thing is a really skillful evolution that does show in the chapter, and that has, I think, been overlooked by some of the readers who have commented above. I really hated Dumbledore's attitude towards Snape when he returns to warn him of Voldemort's decision. It seemed really snide and unsympathetic. But in retrospect, it makes sense. Dumbledore must have been really prejudiced against Slytherins like Snape, since their attitudes are so similar to his own youthful beliefs. (It's always the converts that are the most censorious of those who have not seen the light.) This explains one of the more unbelievable aspects in the series--the lack of punishment for Sirius, the reward for James, and Snape's enforced silence after the werewolf incident. Dumbledore is simply terribly biased. But over the course of this sequence of memories, you see him coming to respect Snape's motives more and more, until the end, when Snape actually reproaches him for his treatment of Harry. We don't actually see much evidence of Snape's own change of heart/soul, but it is reflected in the way Dumbledore treats him. It also, I suspect, represents a spiritual improvement in Dumbledore, and recognition of the error of his ways. (After all, he dies in part to save Draco's soul.) That part was brilliantly done, in my opinion.

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MickeyCee3948 - Jul 21, 2007 9:41 pm (#28 of 201)
Well, I guess I was wrong on Snape being totally evil. But I will have to say that JKR kept it going right up to the last possible moment.

Really the memories didn't help Harry that much, just showed Harry the real reason Snape hated his father like he did. He took the only woman that Snape ever loved. Finn BV I took his "look at me" to be telling Harry to be sure to look at the memories. The memories did tell Harry that he was a horcrux. CRIES OUT IN TRIUMPH!!!!

Mickey

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Nymphadora - Jul 22, 2007 8:03 am (#29 of 201)
Snape's memories really worked for me because they made Harry understand and accept how Dumbledore thought in terms of "using" people; what DD wanted Harry to do (which is totally crucial); that Harry need not LIKE what's going to happen, yet must do it; how Snape was thinking; what were the motives behind his inexplicable behaviour towards Harry - torment, verbal abuse, detentions, but always there to save his life; and in the meantime, give us a thorough backstory on the most ambiguous character from his own perspective, revealing quite more than we suspected. It was the chapter I most wanted to read, and JK obliged!!

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Viola Intonada - Jul 22, 2007 7:59 pm (#30 of 201)
I LOVED this chapter! It confirmed three of my theories: 1) Snape loved Lily and 2) Harry is a Horcrux, and 3) Harry must die. I thought that Dumbledore had ordered Snape to kill him, but never thought that DD could have been dying anyway. I really liked how JKR set that up.

Ann, I think that Harry was too numb to react to what he saw in the Pensieve. I lost my FIL earlier this Spring, there were times when I had shut down emotionally and couldn't "feel" anymore. I think that was the state that Harry was in, Fred, Lupin and Tonks are all dead and Harry has to "shut-down" emotionally to get through what he needs to do.

JKR did an excellent job on this chapter. Wow.

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freshwater - Jul 22, 2007 8:18 pm (#31 of 201)
It must be the romantic in me, but when Snape told Harry to "look at me" just before he died, I thought he wanted one more look at Lily's eyes. That was very touching, to me.

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Holly T. - Jul 23, 2007 7:13 am (#32 of 201)
I thought Snape wanted to look at Lily's eyes one last time.

We now understand that Dumbledore and Petunia had corresponded back when Petunia was young as well as when he brought Harry to the Dursleys' and sent her a Howler.

I liked how Dumbledore was still not telling Snape everything about the Horcruxes. The cursed ring, etc. He told him all that Snape needed to know in order to get the message to Harry that Harry was a Horcrux, but never told Snape about the Horcruxes or the Hallows.

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hellocello3200 - Jul 23, 2007 10:18 am (#33 of 201)
I also thought he was looking into Lily's eyes one last time, but is it possible Snape was trying to perform legimency to find out something like how things had been panning out in the castle since he made his exit or something equally un-romantic?

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spinowner - Jul 23, 2007 12:45 pm (#34 of 201)
This chapter confirmed what I had posted somewhere else (I don't remember where): the reason Snape's Worst Memory from Book 5 was his worst memory is not because of how he was treated by the marauders but because his treatment of Lily cost him his relationship with her.

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freshwater - Jul 23, 2007 12:53 pm (#35 of 201)
Wow, spinowner, you must have gotten and "O" on your Divination N.E.W.T.....Congratulations! :-)

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Caius Iulius - Jul 23, 2007 1:32 pm (#36 of 201)
I think - like it is said above - that Snape wanted to look into Lily's eyes one more time, as he knew he was dying.

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wynnleaf - Jul 23, 2007 2:40 pm (#37 of 201)
Many of us had often thought Snape must have known about the horcruxes, because he helped Dumbledore recover from the curse on the ring. But now we know that the ring curse wasn't because of being a horcrux, but because of the stone.

Snape probably did know about the Deathly Hallows. It wasn't that unknown a story. And Snape would have learned that LV wanted the wand. In fact, Dumbledore may have had to tell Snape about his plans for him to get the Elder wand. So it wouldn't be surprising if Snape figured out about the stone as well.

Anyway, it now makes sense to me how Snape could have helped Dumbledore with the curse from the ring (really the stone in the ring) and still not have known about the horcruxes.

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Finn BV - Jul 23, 2007 5:42 pm (#38 of 201)
And alas, R.I.P. my "Snape-Was-At-Godric's-Hollow" theory! ***although I still contend it was pure genius... grumble...grumble...*** --Madam Pince

Oh no! Can I no longer be your apprentice?

spinowner, I was in that camp, too -- that Snape's worst memory was so because it was the loss of Lily.

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It's Tonks - Jul 23, 2007 10:31 pm (#39 of 201)
A thought.....sorry if it was mentioned already. Just started rereading DH and this hit me. We never actually see who killed Tonks and Lupin do we? I tried to find it but couldn't. We find out they're dead when they are lying next to Fred, all of them dead. I think Bellatrix killed them. In Chapter 1 The Dark Lord Ascending, LV teases Bellatrix and the Malfoys about their neice marrying a werewolf and everyone laughs at them. Then LV "suggests" she can remedy the diseased family tree situation "You must prune yours, must you not, to keep it healthy" and Bella asks for the chance to do it and LV says she will get the chance. So I think that's why they were killed - to "cleanse" the family name - and Bella did it. And we didn't see it happen so we could put it together when we re-read it and see yet another clue we missed. (Or, at least I missed!) But the baby lived so the pure-blood line was not "cleansed". (Ted Tonks was killed too....hmmm wonder who did that?) Possible? Thought I throw it out there and see what anyone thought.

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Magic Words - Jul 24, 2007 6:56 am (#40 of 201)
Love love LOVE this chapter. Best ever. Though I see I'm not the only one disappointed that Harry didn't seem to react to, well, anything.

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hellocello3200 - Jul 24, 2007 9:22 am (#41 of 201)
It's Tonks, that sounds likely. Until we hear otherwise, we can assume Bellatrix went into the battle aiming to get rid of her neice and her husband.

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I Am Used Vlad - Jul 24, 2007 10:22 am (#42 of 201)
This was a great chapter, even though it would have been a much better book if Snape had been at Godric's Hollow and made into a Horcrux after James' murder. Oh, well.

Edit: Where is Gina?

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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 24, 2007 11:27 am (#43 of 201)
Well if Bella did kill Dora and Remus, I do not think she will survive long because, I think when Andromeda learns Dora is dead Andromeda will begin hunting for the Death Eaters who killed her daughter and son in law.

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Mare - Jul 24, 2007 1:02 pm (#44 of 201)
Well the last thing we heard, Remus was duelling Dolohov. (Aberforth told Tonks) So Dolohov surfaces later, but Remus doesn't. It made me think it was him who killed our poor werewolf and his Tonks.

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Madam Pince - Jul 24, 2007 1:20 pm (#45 of 201)
I think you could be right, It's Tonks. Bellatrix certainly seemed extremely humiliated by her "family tree" situation when Voldemort called her on it earlier, so it makes sense to me that she would enter the battle just hungering to "correct" that little situation...

I'm with spinowner and Finn -- I've long thought "Snape's Worst Memory" was because of him alienating Lily, not being alienated by the Marauders.

Finn, bless your dear little heart for being my loyal "Snape At Godric's Hollow" fan! You can certainly still be my apprentice, but only if I can be yours, too -- you have more good ideas than I, any day!

Re-reading this chapter still tears me up. Can't believe I didn't figure out earlier that the second page of the letter would say "Love, Lily" on it -- I was thinking only of what the deal was with Dumbledore. And keeping half the picture with Lily on it? Awwwww...

"After all this time?"
"Always," said Snape.

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Tazzygirl - Jul 24, 2007 3:24 pm (#46 of 201)
**irons hands** So Snape was a good guy afterall. I REALLY wanted him to be bad!! LOL

... and I also really thought he didn't have a thing for Lily. My goodness, but I was totally shot down on all the Snape theories!

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Gina R Snape - Jul 24, 2007 8:05 pm (#47 of 201)
My my my. What a chapter and what an ending to the man's life. Severus Snape was capable of so many extraordinary, profound things. Immense magical power, loyalty, sacrifice. I wrote a bit of a eulogy on the Snape thread, but thought I'd pop in here too.

The 'best of you' was what Snape held most vulnerable and dear. And at the end he gave it all to Harry. I see his relationship with Lily as the only true thing in his life. They were best friends. She was the only one he was ever able to trust and care for unconditionally. And as such, that relationship was the crucial element needed to help him change the direction to his life.

I walk away vindicated, that Snape dedicated his adult life to helping Harry and eventually all the students. But of course, I'm also very very sad that he died. That he died so passively and painfully, after being a man of action. And I would change my user name to The Widow Snape if it wouldn't get kippendoed and spoil others.

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Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 25, 2007 2:04 am (#48 of 201)
Gina - this is why I texted you. To admit my mistake about Snape and offer my condolences. I did have a, um interesting, supper of crow pie and chips (french fries) after reading this chapter.

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Gina R Snape - Jul 25, 2007 5:19 am (#49 of 201)
Aaaaw, thanks Phelim. That was sweet.

On behalf of the Snape family, your condolences are appreciated. I hope the crow wasn't too too foul. Clearly you did not dine alone, and there are those who still refuse to acknowledge--which I find incredible but oh well.

I am thinking more and more, how amazing it was that he chose to continue fighting Voldemort and stayed on DD's side and trusted him after Lily died. I wonder if JKR will touch upon that in any upcoming interviews. And I still want to know how about his early childhood.

Gina, The Widow Snape

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Rose Weasley - Jul 25, 2007 5:57 am (#50 of 201)
This was one of my favorite chapters in the book. It really made me cry seeing all of Snape's memory's playing out. This was really important for Harry to see for himself as if he hadn't i doubt he would have been able to defeat Voldermort.

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[Mona]

gankomon - Jul 25, 2007 9:20 am (#51 of 201)
Incredible chapter. Rest In Peace, Severus Snape. But what a horrible and pointless way for him to die.

I suspected that he loved Lily. No other explanation would have made sense, if Snape were truly on the good side. Rememebr the "power the Dark Lord knows not"...Never expected that it was a childhood friendship, though. And so JKR's comments about "previous correspondence" between Petunia and Dumbledore are now explained. Thank you JKR! A truly wonderful way to explain that Howler.

Snape was a fascinating character because he, even more so than Harry and Voldemort, mnodied the mantra that "our choices define us". Snape was sorted into Slytherin, but it was his own choices that led him to begin hanging around with the nascent Death Eaters. Lily says herself that she had been "making excuses for years" for Snape, and when he called her a Mudblood, that was the straw that broke the came;'s back. No wonder it qualified as Snape's worst memory. And no wonder that Dumbledore believed his redemption. Snape COULDN'T have lied to Dumbledore that nnight on the mountain or afterwards in the study when they knew Lily had died. His own emotions wre too raw.

The tragedy is in his reaction to Harry. I find it telling that Dumbledore says to Snape almost exactly what Lupin tells Harry- you see what you expect to see. By the time of OotP, Harry was filled with hatred for Snape, though until the end of Book Three, there were still mitigating factors. Remember how in Book Two, he calls Snape "Professor Snape" to Lockhart- the only time he does of his own free will that I can recall? It is Snape's actions that soured their chance of reconciliation, just as it was Snape's actions that desstroyed his chances with Lily.

In the end, I find Snape a horrible character who on one hand was unable to move past his own past and befriend a child who had no reasons to hate him. Yet he also did more to save Harry than any other ssingle character in the series. Starting with Book One, Snape is almost ubiquitous as Harry's protector, even more than Dumbledore.

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Luna Logic - Jul 25, 2007 11:25 am (#52 of 201)
Mare : Well the last thing we heard, Remus was duelling Dolohov. (Aberforth told Tonks) So Dolohov surfaces later, but Remus doesn't. It made me think it was him who killed our poor werewolf and his Tonks. I think you are right, because Dolohov is one of the important DE, and as he is named in the last scene of Lupin... I think Dolohov won the duel.
Then, what happens, a duel between Dolohov and Tonks? Did she win ?And then a final avada from Bellatrix, as was supposed above.
I was very sorry for the Tonks family, and for Lupin. He had a sad existence, for the most part of it. Except at Hogwarts (as some others !)

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Geber - Jul 25, 2007 12:47 pm (#53 of 201)
I think the information in this chapter was great, but the timing for presenting it was flawed. We were right in the middle of the most intense battle of the entire seven volume series (I won't say whether the rest of the book is less or more intense) and Voldemort decides to give everyone a one-hour break. The obvious purpose of the break is to give Harry a chance to use the Pensive with Snape's memory. This seems too contrived. Also, the memory just seems too long an interruption in the middle of a battle.

Finally, the idea that Dumbledore would expect Snape to be able to pass the information on to Harry at the last moment seems very risky. I think the fact that Dumbledore left the deluminator to Ron shows that Dumbledore didn't expect Harry to spend year 7 at Hogwarts, so the chances of Snape being able to contact Harry at the critical time were very poor.

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Allison R - Jul 25, 2007 1:13 pm (#54 of 201)
I wonder when Dd did expect Snape to show Harry those memories or tell him face-to-face about that information? If this situation had not come to pass, when exactly would Snape have been able to sit down with Harry and share this with him? There's not a member of the Order who wouldn't have (at the very least) incapacitated him if they came upon him, and Harry would likely have tried to kill him on sight.

Knowing Harry's loathing for Snape, I wonder when Dd thought Snape would be able to get the information to him?

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legolas returns - Jul 25, 2007 3:08 pm (#55 of 201)
I could never see Snape being able to tell Harry these things or Harry listening to what Snape had to say.

This was the only way that the information could be passed on.

I think that Dumbledore may have had suspicions that a horcrux may have been hidden at Hogwarts. He did wonder why Vodemort had asked him for a job he wasnt interested in. Admittedly at the time he did not know about the Horcruxes. He must have assummed that Harry/Snape would have come into contact with each other at some point. He probably had total faith in Snapes ability to do what he was asked.

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Gina R Snape - Jul 25, 2007 5:19 pm (#56 of 201)
Geber, your point is so true and in a way really funny. Could you ever imagine Time out from fighting, everyone. It's tea time!

For me, that chapter was like time stood still. And it would have worked just fine for Voldemort to allow the fighting to continue as he grabbed a bunch of DEs and headed to the forest to wait for Harry while leaving his broadcast message to join him for tea.

But Allison, it is a truly frightening thought that Snape could have died more quickly and not given Harry the needed information. It was far too close for comfort.

I still would have liked to see Harry acknowledge Snape in some way while he was alive, or process his feelings about what he saw after the pensieve or at least in the epilogue. Like this, we didn't hardly get a reaction from Harry beyond a single line to his son.

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Viola Intonada - Jul 25, 2007 7:13 pm (#57 of 201)
If Snape would not have been able to pass the info along to Harry just before dying, would he have come back as a ghost and told Harry?

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Gina R Snape - Jul 25, 2007 7:42 pm (#58 of 201)
Oh Viola. I would hate to see Snape stuck at Hogwarts for all eternity because he didn't get the chance to tell Harry everything he needed to while still alive. That would be just, oh, even sadder than the ending he did wind up with.

But I could see him doing it if he thought it important enough.

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Solitaire - Jul 25, 2007 8:38 pm (#59 of 201)
I find it ironic that the man who was Harry's apparent nemesis all these years was the source of nearly all of his information about Lily. He learned more about her from Snape's memories than from anyone or anything else. JM2K ...

Solitaire

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Mrs. Sirius - Jul 25, 2007 10:22 pm (#60 of 201)
Who would call Petunia 'Tuney'? That's almost as weird as 'Cissy' Finn

Finn, all these decades later, I still call my sister "Ian". I started calling her that when I was 2. (The name derives from is Eduvirgin)

still would have liked to see Harry acknowledge Snape in some way while he was alive, or process his feelings about what he saw after the pensieve or at least in the epilogue. Like this, we didn't hardly get a reaction from Harry beyond a single line to his son. Gina

That is the tragedy of Snape. A father who didn't love him, the woman that he loved from earliest childhood rejecting him for the man who humiliated him, then teaching which he obviously hates, to protect the child that should have been his but instead, had the face of dreaded James Potter. His very last act of bravery, is not acknowledged in his life time.

I always thought it odd that Aunt Petunia referred to that "awful" boy. But that is Snape, never acknowledged for himself or his efforts. Again and again he is denied. In this chapter, perhaps, comes his best reward in that he gets to look into those eyes one last time and knows that he will at least in death be recognized.

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NFla Barbara - Jul 26, 2007 4:48 am (#61 of 201)
Tuney and Cissy both sounded perfectly normal to me, like something a child would say for a complicated name -- but then again, down in this part of the States lots of little kids call their sisters "Sissy," and adults will do it too ("Give the toy back to Sissy").

Now, if Ron had grown up calling Fred and George "Bubba," THAT would have sounded strange...

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Magic Words - Jul 26, 2007 7:13 am (#62 of 201)
Can ghosts change their minds, do you think?

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Remi - Jul 26, 2007 8:31 am (#63 of 201)
I think if ghosts could change their minds, Nearly Headless Nick might not be one anymore (I'm thinking of the end of OOTP).

Anyway, I can't picture Snape as a ghost; I think he deserves some peace.

Hey - do you think Harry ever goes back to get the Advanced Potions textbook of the Half-Blood Prince? I'd think it'd mean even more to him at the end of DH than it did during his sixth year.

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Holly T. - Jul 26, 2007 8:35 am (#64 of 201)
Remi, I'd guess that the potions book burned up in the RoR.

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Remi - Jul 26, 2007 11:53 am (#65 of 201)
Darn - I forgot that.

Thanks!

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Madam Pince - Jul 26, 2007 11:19 pm (#66 of 201)
Awwww, man! I didn't think about that! What a loss! That was a useful book...

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halfmoon - Jul 28, 2007 3:15 am (#67 of 201)
My favorite line is: "Would you like me to do it now?" I hope they will keep this line in the movie!

I was right about that Snape was Dumbledore's man yet he really hated Harry, but I had not figured out why until I read this chapter.

It seems that Snape went to Dumbledore just because he was so desperate and needed someone powerful, then the relationships between them grew as time went on.

I do not think Snape had ever wanted Harry to understand him, so it does not matter it did not happen while he was alive.

I just hope Snape could hear Lily's thanks, in somewhere above.

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HungarianHorntail11 - Jul 28, 2007 5:06 am (#68 of 201)
Aww, I like that idea about Lily, halfmoon.

My condolences, Gina.

I was on the fence about Snape, mainly because JKR referred to him as a bad boy and lumped him with Draco. I really wanted him to be good in accordance with the theories. When Draco couldn't kill DD in HBP, I started to let go of that niggling JKR comment. That having been said, it is only right that I have my fair share of the crow pie.

wynnleaf said: and Dumbledore seems convinced that Snape has grown to protect Harry, at least somewhat, for Harry's own sake, even if Snape asserts that it's still only for Lily.
I agree. Snape having given Harry those memories speaks volumes. Why didn't he simply give him the bit where DD tells him Harry is a horcrux? He wanted Lily's son to have the whole story and he wanted it to come from him. And despite the fact that Harry heard Snape keep saying 'Let me bring the boy to you', Harry didn't leave him there to die alone. Also, when he gave Harry the memory, he went directly to the pensive to view what he had been given. If he had little or no regard for Snape, he may have thought it could wait. Remember how Slughorn altered his memory? Well, Harry didn't doubt Snape's even for a moment. I don't think I needed any interpretation as to how Harry felt. I think his actions spoke for him. For some reason, despite all they'd gone through, there was a connection.

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HungarianHorntail11 - Jul 28, 2007 5:07 am (#69 of 201)
Edited Jul 28, 2007 7:04 am
Harry went alone and stood before Big V. I do wish Snape would have had the satisfaction of seeing Harry do that - which, we might assume he did. And I do wish he would have been able to know the outcome of his work and obedience to DD. I don't like the way he died at all - that big, stupid snake - but I think the message was to show what happens when you play with fire. Lily urged him to leave the DEs and he didn't - it ended up being the reason she broke off their friendship. I agree, Tom P that Snape tried to blame the Marauders but deep down, I think he knew Lily was not so superficial as to let others sway her opinion of someone.

Snape through out the series often chose not to do good, or chose something bordering on evil, when his doing good was not mandated. ~ Tom Proffitt
Actually, I thought the opposite. Headmaster and allowed free reign to punish as he pleases but sends Harry's friends with Hagrid? That message is twofold: 1)Hagrid is still there and 2)He doesn't let any of the DEs decide the punishment - he, himself does it.

Gee, can you tell I wanted him to be good?

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wynnleaf - Jul 28, 2007 6:36 am (#70 of 201)
Headmaster and allowed free reign to punish as he pleases but sends Harry's friends with Hagrid? That message is twofold: 1)Hagrid is still there and 2)He doesn't let any of the DEs decide the punishment - he, himself does it. (HH)

Actually, the Carrows also punished and somehow used crucio. But I don't think Snape could stop that. We don't know who appointed the Carrows, and I tend to think Snape couldn't completely rein them in without causing suspicion. He needed to stay at Hogwarts to ensure other protection of the students, keep the old faculty there and protect them, and have access to Dumbledore's portrait. Besides that, I think we're meant to believe what we learn in this chapter. So when Snape says he had eventually come to the point of not allowing anyone to die that he could save, I believe him. I'd expect the same about students being tortured. After all, he'd agreed with Dumbledore to protect the students.

One wonders why McGonagall especially wouldn't get a little suspicious of Snape's loyalties. He, after all, knew she was an Order member and never revealed that to LV, instead having her stay at Hogwarts as Deputy Headmistress. It was similar with other faculty. He knew where their loyalties lay, and they knew that he was aware of it. Yet he kept them there and even protected them.

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HungarianHorntail11 - Jul 28, 2007 6:39 am (#71 of 201)
wynnleaf, I was referring specifically to that situation where Ginny and the others were sent to Hagrid. Rather than delegating the punishment task to one of the Carrows, Snape himself chose the punishment. But yes, I agree that he could not be everywhere all the time.

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Chemyst - Jul 28, 2007 10:10 am (#72 of 201)
We don't know who appointed the Carrows,
No, we are never given specifics, but when McGonagall resolved at the end of HBP to let the board decide about whether to keep Hogwarts open, I think the heavily infiltrated "board" voted to put in Snape as headmaster over her, and then approved the the first Carrows to fill Snape's old DADA, and later approved his sister as soon as LV made the muggle studies position available.

When I read about Snape pocketing the second page of Lily's letter, I did a bit of a double-take. First time it was, "He is taking Lily's letter to Sirius." Second time it was, "He is taking Lily's letter to Sirius". Snape was reading Lily's "Lot's of Love" to Sirius. (jealous little monster, that Snape)

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HungarianHorntail11 - Jul 28, 2007 10:40 am (#73 of 201)
Chemyst, I figured by that point it had been established that James had an eye for her. I felt as though he took it to have those words with him.

I had to laugh - look at my second line and then yours in the post right after.

EDIT: Very nicely put, Choices. As much as I liked the Snape/Lily theory, I never allowed myself to really sink my teeth into it because of the comment JKR once made - something to the extent of 'who would want Snape in love with them? That's a horrible idea!' That'll teach me to go by the author's comments rather than my gut feelings.

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Choices - Jul 28, 2007 10:45 am (#74 of 201)
From the first mention of Severus Snape, I believed him to be on the side of good. He is a tragic and pitiable figure. After loving Lily, I don't think he ever allowed himself to love anyone else and therefore his life was one of loneliness, and later danger. He did his job, never getting any praise or recognition for risking his life and providing vital information about the enemy. There was no glory for Severus Snape, in life or in death. Like his life, his tireless and thankless task is over and all that remain are the brief memories he shared with Harry, who at last understands the incredible bravery of Severus Snape - his was a job well done. May he rest in eternal peace.

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freshwater - Jul 28, 2007 10:08 pm (#75 of 201)
Well said, Mum (that's Choices to everyone else). You expressed that beautifully.

I'll just add that --even though Snape was no favorite of mine-- I was appalled at the manner in which LV casually and unfeelingly disposed of the man who'd been his trusted liutentant for years....just one more example of the coldheartedness and cruelty that were Voldemort.

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Gina R Snape - Jul 29, 2007 7:53 am (#76 of 201)
:dabs eyes: Brava, Choices.

As for Voldemort's coldheartedness, he expresses regret but I think it's really just regret for losing his best and brightest DE. Snape must've known all along there was a possibility of being killed by Voldemort. I just don't think he or anyome imagined it would happen in this way and for this reason which was not one.

There is a debate on as to whether Snape died from venom or from the bite itself. There is a certain irony to the idea of a Potions Master dying from venom. Would he not have been taking anti-venom for years, or carry a bezoar with him for all occasions? I think it was a bite to the jugular and/or carotid artery. Arthur lived after the bite because they got to him in time and held the wounds to prevent further bleeding. The venom merely kept the wounds from healing, not poisoned the person. I think Snape's wound was a precision bite, rather than a random attack. It doesn't make me feel any 'better' but it does at least make it not so horrible for a former potions master.

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haymoni - Jul 29, 2007 9:51 am (#77 of 201)
I cheated and looked at the Chapter Titles before I read the book and was absolutely thrilled to see this as a chapter title!

When Harry was taking lessons from Snape, Snape siphoned off 3 white, whispy things - Seems like there were a lot more memories than that.

"Tuney" - Sheesh! Still wish Bella was "Trixie".

I'm glad there was a bit of a scene on the Hogwarts Express that tied Lily & Snape together. I always thought that Snape was to Lily as Neville was to Hermione. I had imagined them meeting on the train and "the awful boy" conversation coming later. Again, Kudos to those who suspected that they knew one another before Hogwarts.

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Soul Mate for Sirius - Jul 31, 2007 7:32 am (#78 of 201)
I adored this chapter!

I was so happy to find out Snape and Lily were friends even before Hogwarts. I too was in the "Snape loves Lily" but must admit I never before agreed with those who speculated they were aquainted before school and always pictured it more like a stalker-type obbsession. It had always seemed far-fetched that they could have developed a friendship once at school. Being in different houses, they really didn't have much time together in classes to get to know each other well enough, especially with other Gryffindors/Slytherins around. I was so happy to find out Snape wasn't the creepy stalker I was picturing, and that there was a basis for his feelings. It makes it so much more important and so much more believalbe that his grief over her death was so intense as to bring him to DD.

My fiance and I have been talking about little other than Snape since we've finished the book, and I'm so happy we finally know his story. I always wanted Snape to be good, but never let myself really believe it, lest I be let-down. I really feel like Harry needed to find all of this out in this way. Even if he had let Snape live long enough to tell him all of this, I really don't think he would have believed it. Harry's only view of Snape is of the bitter, resentful, sometimes cruel adult that he is, and I don't think he'd ever be able to see him as a slightly less jaded child whom Lily befriended without seeing the memories of his mother. He also needed to understand the whole story, not just that he was a Horcrux so that he could understand all that Snape had given up. It'd be hard to take the order that he needed to sacrifice himself from Snape without knowing how much Snape had given up himeself. It'd seem hypocritical of Snape if he didn't know.

I also feel like Snape's transformation from abused child to DE to DD's right-hand man is very tangible. Having grown up in a household where he was most likely abused by his muggle father, and then having been sorted into Slytherin with the likes of Lucsius as his prefect, I imagine it was all too easy for young Severus to be swayed into the pureblood mania. And then once he lost Lily's friendship, it seems to me that he gave himself up completely to the mindset of the DE's. It wasn't until LV didn't keep his promise and killed Lily that I think Snape fully understood that there was no mercy or consideration for anyone else from LV, and the weight of his choices fully wieghed on him. Although he had returned to DD before Lily's death, it was only for her protection, not because he reallyl believed in what the Order stood for. I think it took Lily's death for him to understand, and in those 13 years that LV was at large and seemingly gone, Snape had plenty of time to deal with his choices and his beliefs and come around completely. I think by the time LV comes back in GoF and Snape returns to him, he's not working for the Order just for Lily's sake anymore. There'd be no point after so many years. He's doing it because he believes in what he's doing and knows he has to stop LV, not just to avenge Lily, but to help everyone else as well. I think the conversation with DD when he shows DD that his patronus is still a doe just shows that although his motives have changed, he can't admit it to himself, because it would be like admitting his was wrong from the beginning, and it was that error that caused him to not just lose Lily's friendship all those years ago, but to lose her completely as well.

Okay, I know that was really really long-winded, but I hope it made sense!!

-Jenn

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Magic Words - Jul 31, 2007 8:07 am (#79 of 201)
It wasn't until LV didn't keep his promise and killed Lily that I think Snape fully understood that there was no mercy or consideration for anyone else from LV, and the weight of his choices fully wieghed on him.

I like that. I can't think of any direct canon evidence for it, but it's quite logical.

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Caius Iulius - Jul 31, 2007 12:43 pm (#80 of 201)
I really loved this chapter. Poor Sev.

I think Lily was a little tough on Severus about his friends. Being in Slytherin, Severus had to become friends with some of the boys there, otherwise he would have had no one except for Lily, whom he would not frequently see. I agree with Lily about the use of black magic, but not on the choice of friends. Would there have been better persons in Slytherin to spend time with??

I also think Snape would have turned round had it not been for Lily, it would only have taken him longer. Snape definitely didn't like all those killings, and he didn't wish any student any physical harm.

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Solitaire - Jul 31, 2007 7:25 pm (#81 of 201)
Would there have been better persons in Slytherin to spend time with??

Perhaps there were ... we do not know. Surely not all Slytherins would become future DEs. Hasn't Jo said that? As to Snape turning around had it not been for Lily ... I'm not so sure. He might have ... but how many would have had to die first? It seems to me that Snape's main concern was for Lily. He only included James and Harry in his request for her protection because of Dumbledore's comment: "You do not care, then, about the deaths of her husband and child? they can die, as long as you have what you want?"
Snape said nothing, but merely looked up at Dumbledore.
"Hide them all, then," he croaked. "Keep her--them--safe. Please."

Snape admits he asked for mercy for Lily in exchange for Harry ... but Snape already knew in his heart that Lily would never agree to give up Harry in exchange for her own life. He had seen her grow up from childhood, and he probably knew her better than almost anyone. If there was anything he knew about Lily, he knew she would die for those she loved. That is why he came to Dumbledore ... because he knew it was a lost cause without Dumbledore's help.

Snape was not a very nice person for most of his life, really. His all-consuming love for Lily was his one redeeming quality--the very best of him--and Dumbledore counts on that love to bind Snape to a promise to keep Harry safe. And Snape grudgingly agrees to do it. He is mean and rotten to Harry in many ways, but he does keep to the letter of his promise. In the end, to keep his promise to Dumbledore--and out of his love for Lily, I think--Snape gives his life to protect Harry, mirroring Lily's sacrifice.

Some disagree with me, but if Harry was smart enough to figure out about the wands, so was Snape. He was a brilliant Wizard, and there was a reason he buried Dumbledore's wand with him. I think he knew the secret of the wand. He also knew Draco was the one who had disarmed Dumbledore, and he could have said this to Voldemort and saved his own skin ... but he didn't. Snape let Voldemort believe he had disarmed as well as killed Dumbledore. In doing so, he saves Draco and, I think, offers, as Lily did, some sacrificial protection for Harry. I think this sacrificial death was, sadly, Snape's finest, shining moment. But I also think Lily knows ... and probably loves him for it.

Solitaire

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Madame Pomfrey - Jul 31, 2007 9:13 pm (#82 of 201)
As to Snape turning around had it not been for Lily ... I'm not so sure. He might have ... but how many would have had to die first? It seems to me that Snape's main concern was for Lily.

I totally agree,Solitaire.Had Voldemort chose Neville I highly doubt Snape would have went to Dumbledore.Also,if Voldemort had spared Lily,not only would Snape be indebted to Voldemort,Lily would have hated him.If Lily,the girl he loved since he first layed eyes on her,couldn't make him see that DE and everything they stand for were bad,who could? Except for his being responsible for the death of the girl he had always loved,I don't see anything else that would have brought about a change.IMO,Lily's death saved Snape.

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Solitaire - Jul 31, 2007 9:15 pm (#83 of 201)
IMO, Lily's death saved Snape.

Good point.

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Catherine - Aug 1, 2007 7:00 am (#84 of 201)
There is a debate on as to whether Snape died from venom or from the bite itself. There is a certain irony to the idea of a Potions Master dying from venom. Would he not have been taking anti-venom for years, or carry a bezoar with him for all occasions? --Gina

I read that scene as though Snape bled out from his artery, as your post suggests. I could imagine Snape taking precautions against poison, so it seems more believable that he would die from blood loss.

In a sense, Snape had put his "neck" on the line for many years before his time was up. I also think that seeing him bleed works well with the images of sacrifice, and the motifs of blood that run throughout the series (pure blood, Mudblood, bad blood between people, Lily's blood, blood protection).

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Thom Matheson - Aug 1, 2007 7:32 am (#85 of 201)
And Ron's ever famous "Bloody Hell".

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Columbine Fairy - Aug 1, 2007 2:29 pm (#86 of 201)
Wow, there are so many interesting points on this thread I can't remember what I was originally going to say. Lets see now..

Hmm, this chapter certainly answered a lot of questions! I wonder how it never came out that Snape and Lily were friends? Sirius and Lupin would have known, as well as Hagrid and all the other teachers. It seems strange it was never mentioned to Harry.

It certainly explained why Snape was so horrible to Harry. Perhaps he blamed Harry for Lily's death? Or, he thought Harry was the son he should have had, or simply just looking at Harry was a reminder of the man who won the woman he loved? It makes you wonder about all the times Snape was jibing him about his father and Harry felt he was x-raying his mind...perhaps he was just looking at his eyes, not into them...

I agree with Solitaire that Snape would have figured out the business with the wand, and therefore died protecting both Harry and Draco. However, I find it highly unlikely that DD would have told him about it before he died - I feel that he wanted noone but Harry to know that the hallows even existed, although I doubt he could have planned Harry actually getting the wand. But after his death, when plans went awry, I think his portrait might have had to explain a few things.

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Gina R Snape - Aug 1, 2007 7:11 pm (#87 of 201)
Oooh, Catherine. I like that!

He certainly did put his neck on the line. And as a half blood, blood loss is an ironic response to the question of blood status.

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Weeny Owl - Aug 2, 2007 7:35 am (#88 of 201)
I believe that Snape truly changed his opinions over the years about the whole blood purity thing.

He told Phineas not to use the word "Mudblood" when they were talking about Hermione having the portrait.

I never got the impression that he disliked Hermione because of her blood, but more because of her hand waving. He seemed not to have much patience with Neville because of Neville's lack of potion-making skills, and not because his parents were Aurors.

The relationships with Marauders are all adversarial, and even though Wormtail is a Death Eater, Snape dislikes him as much as he dislikes Lupin.

Even though I wanted him to live, I was glad that he loved Lily, and even if he's killed, I believe his soul is going to be just fine.

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Gina R Snape - Aug 2, 2007 11:29 am (#89 of 201)
You know, I would think Snape to hate Wormtail most of all because he's the one who betrayed the Potters. I can't help but wonder what else went on at Spinner's End. Was making Wormtail fetch him drinks and clean the house the worst he could do in retribution for Lily's death? You gotta wonder.

I wonder if and how much Snape hated and later came to accept his own blood status.

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legolas returns - Aug 2, 2007 11:50 am (#90 of 201)
I thought that Voldemort placed him with SNape because he trusted him more than others. He might have expected Snape to keep an eye on him and make sure that he kept himself hidden when he was supposed to be dead.

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wynnleaf - Aug 2, 2007 11:56 am (#91 of 201)
Solitaire, I loved your post #81. And Weeny Owl's post, and Catherine's idea about the symbology. of dying by blood pouring out instead of the poison. All really good posts.

Speaking of the Marauder's I was really impressed that this chapter showed us that Snape had actually tried to save Lupin's life -- a person against whom we know he had a grudge. Another sign of Snape changing over the years. And I loved his comment that by that point, he didn't let anyone die that he could save. I just can't believe that he saved Lupin and others just because of Lily. Lily was the catalyst, but I don't think everything he did was just because of his continuing love for her.

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legolas returns - Aug 2, 2007 2:55 pm (#92 of 201)
There doesnt seem to be anywhere in particular to post this (beyond it being relevant to this chapter) so here goes....

Finally we learned a lot more about Lily in this chapter. Up until this point things were definately lacking.

Caring, sensitive, protective of family and friends and knows what is right/wrong and is not scared to choose what is correct. She seems to give people many chances-it took her till Snape called her a mudblood to point out that their paths had diverged and that they could no longer be friends.

In the memories we have seen of James he seems arrogant and a bit of a bully and we know that he broke a lot of rules at school and got up to all sorts of dangerous things. I am sure that he improved with age otherwise Lily would not have married him.

All thoughout Harrys life he had been compared to James with the exception of possibly Dumbledore who said of him - "deepest nature is much more like his mother's (rather than father's)." Dumbledore was a good judge of character but why did nobody else see Lily in him? Did he just probe below the surface more due to all the Voldemort stuff/know instictively because he had watched Harry so much/seen Harry at both his best and worst?

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Madame Pomfrey - Aug 2, 2007 4:47 pm (#93 of 201)
Gina,I was thinking the same thing. I would think that Snape would want revenge on the vermin for his part in Lily's death.Snape probably had to keep his feelings guarded lest Voldemort find out how much Snape loved Lily which might have blown his cover.

Legolas,I think your right in thinking that Snape was to keep an eye on Wormtail.Once a traitor,always a traitor.Which is why I'm sure that Voldemort charmed the silver hand to choke its owner if there was any sign of treachery.

Wynnleaf,I suppose that could be true.George would have been dead had Snape not intervened.Instead,he only lost an ear. Or was it Moody he was trying to save?

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Magic Words - Aug 2, 2007 4:49 pm (#94 of 201)
The people who compare Harry to James, as far as I can remember, fall into two categories. 1) They never get to know Harry that well, and make snap judgements on his appearance, or 2) They were old friends of James' and probably meant the comparison as highest praise. Even Sirius, once he knows Harry better, says "You're less like your father than I thought."

Madam Pomfrey, if you're talking about Snape's intervention in the fight over Privet Drive, Snape saw a Death Eater aiming for Lupin's back and tried to take his hand off. He missed; I can only suppose the Death Eater also missed Lupin for the same reason, difficulty aiming at a moving target while on a broomstick.

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wynnleaf - Aug 2, 2007 5:27 pm (#95 of 201)
It's interesting to get a copy of OOTP and turn to the Worst Memory scene. Read The Prince's Tale memories, but when you get to the Worst Memory scene, switch and read the OOTP version until you get to the apology part. Read it from the perspective of knowing that Lily is considered up until this point to be Snape's best friend.

It's just interesting and may give a different perspective on several aspects of the Lily-Marauders-Snape questions.

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wynnleaf - Aug 2, 2007 5:59 pm (#96 of 201)
Let me add to that last post. While you're reading The Prince's Tale with the Worst Memory OOTP chapter handy, also keep the POA description of the werewolf Prank available. When you're at that memory in The Prince's Tale, read the POA version of the Prank (maybe check out DD's version of James saving Severus' life as well at that point), then go on and read the OOTP Worst Memory and then back to The Prince's Tale.

Just a bit of interesting analysis.

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Weeny Owl - Aug 2, 2007 9:16 pm (#97 of 201)
I would think that Snape would want revenge on the vermin for his part in Lily's death.Snape probably had to keep his feelings guarded lest Voldemort find out how much Snape loved Lily which might have blown his cover.

Considering how much disdain Voldemort had for love, I'm not sure it would have mattered that much. Even when Snape asked that Lily be spared, Voldemort attributed it to desire only. He had no idea that Snape truly loved Lily, and I doubt if he could ever have understood what love really is.

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legolas returns - Aug 2, 2007 11:52 pm (#98 of 201)
Lily it seems likes the MWPP more than she says and sees that Snape is obsessed with finding what they are up to. She is described as talking coldly. Lily has favourable views on James saving Snape. She does not like Snapes friends. When Lily critisises James in front of Snape he relaxes.

Dumbledore says that Snape could not forgive James for saving him.

In the next memory

It is interesting that Lily Smirks a little when she sees Snapes pants.

If Lily and Snape were best friends why did he lash out at her and call her a mudblood because she stuck up for him?

"Your as bad as he is"-Making people do things that they dont want to. She said this to James.

It kind of mirrors how Petunia reacts to Lily. In the beginin Lily does as she is told. Petunia is fascinated by Lilys magic and wants to go to Hogwarts. When Snape bangs a branch into her sister she is upset that he would do that. When Petunia is told she cant come to Hogwarts Snape finds the letter she starts calling her sister a freak etc even though she is very jealous. That was the start of the permanant division.

Lily and Snape are friends. Snapes friends/actions drive a wedge between them. Lily dislikes MWPP less than she did in first year. She begins to think more favourably about James. Snape is jealous from the begining otherwise he would not try and get them into trouble. This jealousy increases in intensity. Meanwhile James/Sirius still attack Snape. Snape was really annoyed that James pulled him back from the Shrieking shack but displays this by saying that James was saving his friends skin. Snape did not want James to stop picking on him because he did it just for Lily. He wanted to get out of the problem by himself. He shouts out the first insult that comes to his head because he feels anger/jealousy/humiliation and apart from anything else it is a muggleborn saving him even though they are friends. This is the final straw for Lily.

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wynnleaf - Aug 3, 2007 3:58 am (#99 of 201)
Legolas returns,

Interesting observations. I'll add some more from another perspective (I'm not discounting yours, just looking at more).

After the tree branch falls on Petunia, Lily assumes that Snape intentionally made it happen -- perhaps because she could intentionally make things happen. But Snape looks first scared and then confused. It's possible it was accidental magic, like Aunt Marge blowing up. Snape perhaps knows enough to realize it must have been his emotion, but not enough to have been able to do anything about it.

Later in the Werewolf Prank. Now that we know the Prank happened before the Worst Memory scene, in which James says he's tormenting Snape just "because he exists," it makes it seem far less likely that James was being particularly noble in saving Snape. Seems like if he'd saved Snape because he had any true concern about Snape's life, he wouldn't later be bullying him "because he exists." And it's clear he and Sirius learned nothing from the prank as we later see them casually talking about Lupin's being a werewolf in public, still running around the countryside endangering the local populace, and still casually tormenting and bullying Snape in a particularly cruel fashion.

This makes Snape's assertion that James saved his life solely to keep his friends out of trouble far more likely than we might have otherwise thought. It would also make Lily's comments after the Prank quite galling, especially since Snape had committed to not revealing Lupin's secret. In fact, it makes Snape's continuing to keep Lupin's secret, even in the face of things like Prefect Lupin's inaction during the Worst Memory scene and their obvious continued bullying especially amazing.

Lily believes the story that James was being noble in saving Snape and doesn't believe her "best friend" when he is basically asserting that James wasn't noble and "saved" him just to keep his friends out of trouble.

Lily during the Worst Memory scene. She's been called Snape's best friend and agreed with that. Why didn't she address Snape at all when she first got involved? She hardly even looked at him at first. Her entire attention is on James. Why is she smirking over this torment and bullying of her "best friend?" Can anyone imagine Hermione reacting this way? Lily, according to JKR, liked James at this point.

Dumbledore's comments on the Prank. Dumbledore told Harry that Snape was trying to save his life in PS/SS because of a life debt to James. Dumbledore knows that this is not Snape's motivation. Certainly Dumbledore did not bring up any life-debt responsibilities when Snape first came to him regarding Lily's safety, even though Snape was not acting concerned about James and the baby. I am not certain that even Dumbledore truly put much stock in the life-debt story in this particular case (as opposed to Harry and Peter). It made a convenient way to explain Snape's actions in PS/SS to Harry, but it clearly wasn't something Dumbledore thought worth bringing up when James' life was in danger due to Snape's taking the prophecy to Voldemort.

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TomProffitt - Aug 3, 2007 4:46 am (#100 of 201)
wynnleaf, look at the scene from the perspective of Lily spending five years trying to convince her best friend not to be taken in by the Dark Arts and getting nowhere. At this point Lily has to have been extremely frustrated with Severus. We've seen a lot more of Lily, James, & Snape by the time we get to this chapter, but there is still a huge amount we have not seen.

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[Mona]

wynnleaf - Aug 3, 2007 5:18 am (#101 of 201)
Actually, Tom, I don't think we've seen much of anything of Lily other than 1. the memories Harry had of her at the point of her death, 2. Slughorns comments about her, 3. the letter she wrote to Sirius and 4, the OOTP Worst Memory scene which is partly repeated in this chapter. We know almost nothing about Lily other than that she died to save her son, was good at potions and cheeky to her teachers, was popular and became Head Girl.

As for what she put up with out of Snape, this is what we're told that Lily knew and thought about Snape: that he was hanging out with a bad sort of crowd (James, who she liked, hung out with the Marauders - a good sort??), that he laughed at some Dark Magic they'd done; he used the "mudblood" term, and he didn't like the Marauders, especially James; and....? Lily doesn't accuse Snape of doing Dark Magic and I'm sure she would have if she'd known of it. She certainly doesn't accuse him of bullying people or attacking the Marauders.

Besides, does Lily's frustation with Snape's not changing his friendships make it fine and understandable that she'd laugh at him being bullied and tormented?

As I said, I absolutely cannot imagine Hermione smirking while a supposedly good friend was being treated like that. For that matter, I can't imagine Hermione liking a guy who was acting like James was acting.

I have yet to see anything positive about James other than that he fought bravely against Voldemort, wouldn't have killed a cringing pleading unarmed man, and died defending his family.

The primary reasoning behind the "James matured and grew to be wonderful" idea is that James must have become far better than he was because otherwise a person as wonderful as Lily wouldn't have married him. But she liked him even when he was a bully and a jerk. And why exactly do we believe Lily was wonderful? Or that her marrying someone is proof of their worthiness?

Who says she was wonderful and Saint Lily? She died for Harry which was very, very brave and she loved him. But JKR has now shown us that Narcissa deeply loved Draco. In fact, JKR has said that most mothers would make Lily's choice if they had it to make. Other than dying for Harry, what makes Lily anything different from a bright, cheeky nice girl? Why do we assume she was so saintly and faultless that she couldn't fall in love with a brave but bullying jerk?

After all, JKR said Lily could have loved Snape romantically if he hadn't gone over to the Death Eaters.

I don't think we've been given any evidence to think Lily is the pure and wonderful saintly, brilliant person that even I assumed she was for so long. She was a nice, bright girl who didn't mind picking on her sister. She was a friend to Snape, but liked James as well and wasn't so committed a friend that she couldn't take pleasure (smirking, remember), in that friend's being tormented and humiliated.

As far as I can tell, now that DH is done, almost all of JKR's major characters are flawed and they seem to be intentionally flawed. That doesn't mean they don't have many admirable qualities as well. But I think The Prince's Tale, combined with the other scenes we've got of Lily, shows us both Lily's qualities and her flaws.

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Caius Iulius - Aug 3, 2007 7:52 am (#102 of 201)
Wynnleaf,

I have read a lot of posts from you over the last few days, especially those regarding Snape, Lily and the Marauders, and I agree on more or less everything you have written. And you have put it into words so much better than I ever could. Thanks!

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Gina R Snape - Aug 3, 2007 8:28 am (#103 of 201)
I agree Wynnleaf. I think Lily was a terrible friend to Snape, yet he stood by her anyway. My take on things is that they befriended in childhood because he had information on the wizarding world. Once they got to Hogwarts and were sorted into houses, he became 'that boy from the playground' who she felt too guilty to ditch until their 5th year. Since Lily was in the same house as the Marauders, it would be easy for her to get swept up in James' popularity in her own house and eventually worn down by him and his crowd until she was charmed. Snape on the other hand, was in the rival house of slytherin and maintaining a friendship would have been difficult in the best of situations. It's possible she and Snape might have grown closer had he not been drawn to the dark arts. Maybe if he were in ravenclaw instead of slytherin or she were not in the same house as the marauders things could have been different.

I just don't see Lily as being as wonderful as she was built up to be. We are guilty of Harry's perspective in this regard. When someone grows up without a parent or parents, it's not uncommon to elevate the status of the dead parent(s) to sainthood. It creates an emotional comfort and there's no reality with which to compare the fantasy. But now in the 7th book we have a reality to compare to the fantasy and Lily does not hold up in the light of the pensieve day. It makes Snape's life seem even more tragic, to me at least, to think he gave his life over to a woman who may not have been deserving of such devotion.

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Chemyst - Aug 3, 2007 9:03 am (#104 of 201)
Who says she was wonderful and Saint Lily? – wynnleaf
The pin that burst that bubble for me was the callous offhand comment in her thank-you note to Sirius for his gift of a toy broomstick where she clearly was not appreciative of Petunia's gift of a vase, (except for its use as a target for little Harry to smash.) Isn't the thought supposed to count for something? Lily earned some of Petunia's ill will.

JKR compared Ginny's popularity with Lily once in an interview. Perhaps this was another experience that Harry and Severus shared. The girl they were friends with over the summer dumped them and ran off with her own crowd once she was back at school.

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wynnleaf - Aug 3, 2007 9:06 am (#105 of 201)
Thanks Caius Iulius and Gina.

It's not that I'm saying Lily was Bad and Snape was Good or that one or the other was more at fault.

But up until DH, we readers (me included) basically assumed that Lily was practically flawless -- this beautiful, kind, brave, brilliant, noble sacrificing person. Why did we assume that? We only really heard Hagrid's opinion (and he loved Aragog, for goodness sake!), and Slughorn who thought her gifted and cheeky.

I think it's because when Harry was 11 in the first book, we all really wanted his real parents (as opposed to those awful Dursleys), to be noble, brave, and beautiful -- wonderfully admirable. JKR didn't give us that in James. We assumed it at first. We assumed in PS/SS that James the Noble rescued the Evil Enemy from certain death, and the nasty Snape hated him for it. In POA, we assumed Snape's grudge was over nothing at all -- a petty little grudge over a schoolboy trick.

We never learned anything about Lily, and so assumed she must have been kind, gentle, brave. Personally, I wondered occasionally if she were a sort of unseen "Mary Sue" -- the kind of character some lesser writers use as a self-insert who is just toooo perfect and always beautiful, brilliant, brave, etc. Like maybe she was Jo Rowling's "Mary Sue" in an unseen role.

But JKR really never gave us any reason to assume all this about Lily. As far as I can tell, in JKR's mind parents that are worth much of anything will risk their lives to save their kids -- just like even Narcissa does. The fact that we readers took Lily's sacrificial death and sort of made her into a spotless sacrifice is not some trick JKR played on us.

The only unflawed primary characters I can think of in the HP series are Neville and Luna. And what's fascinating is that Neville and Luna appear flawed at first -- they're odd or appear weak. But they are the only ones who we've never seen be arrogant, jealous, sarcastic, snide, insulting, torment another person, laugh at someone else's distress, or in anyway cause unnecessary harm. They don't lie. They aren't rash. Nothing. They are steadfast friends and kind.

As far as I know every other primary character is flawed. Lily and James as well.

Edit: Excellent point Chemyst.

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M A Grimmett - Aug 3, 2007 9:10 am (#106 of 201)
I liked the bit about Pet's vase. In my family, if you're given something as a gift, it tends to be displayed or used until it's broken or you can wear it out. I liked that Lily would put out Pet's vase even if she didn't care for it, and I can relate to her feeling glad that it broke by accident--let her off the hook. I thought it was nice of her display it, showing her sister that she still has a place in Lily's life.

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legolas returns - Aug 3, 2007 10:51 am (#107 of 201)
I honestly dont think that Lily was built up to be wonderful in any of the books. I dont think Harry had an opinion about his mother beyond the fact that she tried to stand up to James and wondered why if she disliked James that much she married him. Harry spends time wondering if he is like his father/would his father do this or that-never his mother. At some points in the book I have wondered if he had budded of from his father something similar to an onion. He had been consistantly told that his father was wonderful and he believed it up till the pensieve memory . He had to speak to Sirius because he was so upset by his fathers actions. The only things Harry heard about his mum was that she was a freak (from petunia). Hagrid say James and Lily were the best Witch and Wizard that lived and wanted nothing to do with the dark arts. Slughorn called her charming and vivacious but this was 6th year.

When Harry goes into the forrest he wants his mum to stay very close to him and he cant take his eyes off her. That is about the only time in the entire series he places his mum before dad. He does see her in the mirror of erised first though but that is due to her proximity to him.

How do we know that Lily picked on her sister? I dont agree. I think Petunia went on the attack because she wasnt magical herself and she was jealous.

She was angry with Snape for hurting her sister. In the 9 3/4 memory she trys to reasure her sister and she gets called a freak and told that she is being separated for the good of normal people. Admittedly going into your sisters room and reading a private letter is completely wrong.

I dont think that there is enough in Snapes memories to tell that Lily treated Snape as "Just the boy in the playground". It jumps from sorting to 5th year. There is such a big gap inbetween. Snape seems to think that dark magic was amusing whereas Lily had the opposite point of view. JKR herself has said that Snape thought Lily would be impressed if he became a death eater. They clearly dont understand each others point of view or where they are coming from. It would be different if they could understand the point of view but not necessarily agree with it. They clearly had drifted apart from each other and given the polar opposite points of view its fairly obvious that this would happen.

In the worst memory lots of students are laughing at Snape. "Snape was clearly unpopular" (OOP-Snapes worst memory). You can argue endlessly how good friends they were-Admittedly smirking when she saw Snapes pants was not nice but at least she got James to stop hostilities for a few minutes. The fact that they were friends up to this point suggests to me that she did not really care what other people thought. After the worst memory she says that nobody could understand why they were friends. Given that her "friend" insulted her such a manor is it surprising that this was the final straw when they had drifted apaprt? Why did he insult her in this way?

I do think that she wasnt a perfect person by any stretch of the imagination

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wynnleaf - Aug 3, 2007 11:07 am (#108 of 201)
I agree, legolas returns, that JKR did not set Lily up to be this perfectly wonderful person. But that is what many readers have assumed. I've seen for several years now, since OOTP came out, the continuing assumption that James must have become a much better person because otherwise someone like Lily wouldn't have fallen in love with him. Why did so many people think that? The assumption was that Lily was too good to fall for anyone, but a really admirable guy. But we were never given any info about Lily that should have led us to that conclusion.

I agree that Snape's friendships and interests were frustrating to Lily. However, it's not like she was dating him. Friendship with Snape does not appear to have cost her anything other than the questioning by her other friends.

We know that Snape was particularly constant in his friendship and care for Lily. I don't mean that he never hurt her. He obviously did by using the mudblood word about her. But his regard for her never ceased even when she married James. Lily's regard for Snape was not as constant. Before he insulted her, she was laughing at his humiliation. Hermione would not have done that.

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legolas returns - Aug 3, 2007 11:19 am (#109 of 201)
I was more of the opinion who would want to marry a guy like James rather than so and so was too good for him. I would have thought that many a girl would have been put off by his arrogance.

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Columbine Fairy - Aug 3, 2007 3:14 pm (#110 of 201)
I suppose dying for her son would count for something?

I got the feeling from Snape's memories that at some point the friendship must have reached a stage where Lily was only staying in it out of loyalty. It was off to a bad start anyway, when Lily had to devide her loyalties between her sister and her new best friend. The mudblood comment must have been the final straw, and the underpants comment would have come from a shock reaction and realisation that all those years of investing in the relationship had come to nothing. These things do happen.

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TomProffitt - Aug 3, 2007 3:36 pm (#111 of 201)
We have amazing little information to go on when examining Lily and James (particularly unbiased information). This in turn makes it very hard to understand Snape. My initial impression of Lily & Severus's friendship was one that existed only because the two were the only magic using kids in their hometown. I thought that Lily showed a lot of loyalty to Snape for such a tenuous connection, as every step in their parting of ways seemed to come from an error on Snape's part.

I'd like to know more about James & Lily (from an unbiased view point, of which we currently have zero unbiased info) so that I can better understand Snape.

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haymoni - Aug 3, 2007 4:22 pm (#112 of 201)
I still want to know how they defied Voldy 3 times.

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Mediwitch - Aug 3, 2007 6:53 pm (#113 of 201)
Anybody else find it interesting that if "The Prank" Sirius tried to pull on Severus had succeeded, Severus would have been injured (or killed) by a magical creature (werewolf) in the Shrieking Shack and in the end that's basically what happened, only via the snake instead of a werewolf?

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Gina R Snape - Aug 3, 2007 9:20 pm (#114 of 201)
Yes, Mediwitch. That has not been lost on a LOT of Snape fans. I hope someone pulled him out of there and gave him a proper burial. But it seems that place was determined to see Snape die one way or another.

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wynnleaf - Aug 4, 2007 3:48 am (#115 of 201)
As regards Tom's comment about having little information.

These are, of course, not real people. We've got the information JKR wanted us to have. She sketches out a character with a few lines, or a few pages, or many chapters. But we are to use the information we get. It's not like the info is given randomly and may be trivial compared to a vast amount of more important info that "really" exists elsewhere. If that were the case, we could imagine that Snape had many loving relationships elsewhere that we never see, was wonderfully fair and just to all other classes than Harry's etc. No -- in a book you deal with what is written. Before book 7, we could theorize all sorts of things. Now that it's done, we judge and understand the characters based on the notion that JKR has given us enough to do so.

Lily laughed at Snape's humiliation and torment before he made the mudblood comment. At that point, as far as we know, the only things he'd done to frustrate or disppoint her were to hang out with bad sorts of people and use the "mudblood" word in reference to others. Since neither Lupin nor Sirius (nor James in memories) ever accused Snape of blood prejudices, and he was friends with a muggleborn, it's hard to make a case for other nastiness to that point regarding prejudice on his part.

Yet with no personal reason to be angry with Snape, Lily laughed at his humiliation. No, I don't think that was the reaction of a "best friend" and can't imagine Hermione doing the same thing to even a nodding acquaintance. And I do think we can draw conclusions about Lily's action. JKR did not write in that laugh because she was an objective observer watching an event and just had to include it like a good journalist. No, she put that reaction in there to tell us something about Lily, just like every description of any character is to give us information about that character.

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Magic Words - Aug 4, 2007 4:24 am (#116 of 201)
I think we're blowing this laugh out of proportion. I found the quote on Mugglenet: Lily, whose furious expression had twitched for an instant as though she was going to smile, said, 'Let him down!'

I'm sure I'm not the only one who's had to make an effort to keep from laughing at something I disapproved of. Lily didn't laugh. She didn't even smile. Her face twitched as though she was going to smile. And the very next thing she did was draw her wand on James for continuing to cast hexes.

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wynnleaf - Aug 4, 2007 4:47 am (#117 of 201)
Oh, I don't want to make it into this hateful, awful thing, Magic Words. But it's not the reaction of a best friend when their friend is being bullied and humiliated. Sure, maybe if one friend was pranking another friend, it might be deemed funny at first. But Lily knew that the Marauders had bullied Snape before and tormented him, and that he hated them.

Most readers that I've ever seen comment on this scene, didn't think this scene looked funny at all.

It's not that seeing it as funny was horrible, it's that Lily seeing it as funny isn't the reaction of a good friend.

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Vulture - Aug 4, 2007 4:59 am (#118 of 201)
I agree, Magic Words. Also, in that original "Worst Memory" scene in Book 5, JKR was communicating several things to us. Firstly, she didn't, at that stage, tell us that Lily and Snape were friends (despite all the speculation) _ all we knew was that she was infuriated to see someone being bullied.

Secondly, there was the delicate hint of her being attracted to James. That's why she was having to repress a smile even though she meant to resist wrong-doing. The key point (we get this again and again with JKR) was her choice, not her instincts and feelings. There was no ambiguity about her reaction when James tried to use Snape's insult to Lily as a handy excuse for bullying _ she lost her temper and (to his amazement) laid into James to such an extent that even his pals were sheepish after she'd gone.

Thirdly, Snape knew about her attraction to James _ and I personally believe his insult came at least partly from pain at that fact. It also, remember, was a direct rejection of James's arrogant, proprietorial, "You're lucky Evans was here, Snivellus" comment. Before Book 7 _ i.e. before any friendship between Lily and Snape was confirmed _ I remember saying that, at that moment, the only way Snape had of hurting James was to insult the girl he fancied. I still believe that.

Fourthly, what Snape said was spur-of-the-moment.

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Steve Newton - Aug 4, 2007 6:10 am (#119 of 201)
I don't know wynnleaf, but sometimes seeing a good friend getting hosed is a fun thing. Especially if they aren't actually getting hurt and should be able to handle it.

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wynnleaf - Aug 4, 2007 7:41 am (#120 of 201)
I don't know wynnleaf, but sometimes seeing a good friend getting hosed is a fun thing. Especially if they aren't actually getting hurt and should be able to handle it. (Steve Newton)

I agree, if it's all in good fun. But not when you it's your good friend and you know that the perpetrators are bullies and that their primary objective is to humiliate your good friend.

Another thing struck me about Lily -- this isn't bad, it just shows her state of mind as a supposed "best friend."

In the scene where Lily and Snape discuss the werewolf Prank (Lily doesn't know it was a werewolf or a prank), it's clear that Lily has heard in the past Snape's suspicions about Lupin. However, she doesn't believe him. He's her very intelligent "best friend," and she chooses to believe the story in Gryffindor that Lupin is just ill. Snape in fact was correct, but Lily didn't believe him.

Later, after the Prank, Lily is focused on James' supposed saving of Snape's life. Even though Snape is her "best friend" she pays no heed to his assertion that James only saved his life in order to protect his friends. In retrospect, now that we know that James continued to see Snape as an object to torment and bully just "because he exists," it seems more likely that Snape was correct that James' actions were not altruistic or noble in the least. In any case, Lily does not listen to or give any credence to Snape's opinions about James motivation in saving him, preferring to see things from the perspective of whatever the popular story in Gryffindor was concerning the event.

Neither of these attitudes towards Snape's opinions make Lily bad in any way. But they do indicate to me someone who had long since ceased to be the committed and supportive "best friend." She was more willing to believe whatever Gryffindors were saying about Lupin or a Snape and James incident, than to believe Snape's side of things.

The more I look at it, I think Lily was probably subconsciously looking for a reason to drop the "friendship" long before the Worst Memory scene.

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Prefect Marcus - Aug 4, 2007 9:10 am (#121 of 201)
Did anyone besides me find it interesting that Dumbledore told Snape "...to keep an eye on Quirrell"? When speaking to and/or about staff members with other adults, Dumbledore nearly always refers to them by their first names, or at least uses their titles.

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Joanna Lupin - Aug 4, 2007 9:55 am (#122 of 201)
Not that I am defending Lily, but isn't it likely that she was simply tired of Sev's continued obsession as far as Marauders were concerned?

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TomProffitt - Aug 4, 2007 12:04 pm (#123 of 201)
The other thing we should keep in mind with this chapter and the Worst Memory Chapter from OP is that these are memories crucial in Snape's formative years. What we don't see are the memories of events crucial in the development of Lily & James.

These memories give us a pretty good basis for understanding much of the reasoning behind Severus's behavior, but it is really quite insufficient for understanding Harry's parents. For example, we've never seen the actual scenes where James learns of the danger Snape is in on his way to the Shreiking Shake and James's interception of Snape before the meeting of man and werewolf. Did something happen in that secret passage that only increased the contempt James held for Snape? There's no way to know. What type of conversions happened between Lily and Snape that were important in Lily's ending of the relationship? We only see the ones important to Snape. Surely there was much time where James, the Marauders, and Lily were together that Snape did not see (being in a different House and all) that could color things much differently.

We've had the opportunity with DH to better understand Snape, but I think it's a stretch to draw deep conclusions about Lily & James.

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wynnleaf - Aug 4, 2007 12:18 pm (#124 of 201)
Not that I am defending Lily, but isn't it likely that she was simply tired of Sev's continued obsession as far as Marauders were concerned? (Joanna Lupin)

I think Lily was clearly unaware of the depth of what the Maruaders had done to Snape, especially since she didn't know that James had saved Snape from a Prank pulled by Sirius, nor that the "prank" involved the possibility of dying at the teeth of another Marauder. While we know more about Snape's reasons for truly detesting the Marauders at that point, Lily didn't.

Tom, I think JKR has told us all she feels she needs to about Lily and James. The fact that she was asked direct questions after OOTP about how Lily could ever have come to like James, and yet still didn't bother to give us any further scenes of "good James," but instead only gave us more scenes of "jerk James," leads me to believe that she had no interest in convincing readers of James' essential goodness beyond his bravery in fighting Voldemort, his unwillingness to kill an unarmed cringing pleading enemy in cold blood, and the fact that he'd die for his family.

Remember, JKR is not reporting random facts when there are lots more just as important facts that were really happening out of our line of vision. JKR showed us what she wanted us to see and what she felt was important for us to see.

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journeymom - Aug 4, 2007 1:03 pm (#125 of 201)
Anybody else find it interesting that if "The Prank" Sirius tried to pull on Severus had succeeded, Severus would have been injured (or killed) by a magical creature (werewolf) in the Shrieking Shack and in the end that's basically what happened, only via the snake instead of a werewolf? Mediwitch

Yes, Mediwitch. That has not been lost on a LOT of Snape fans. I hope someone pulled him out of there and gave him a proper burial. But it seems that place was determined to see Snape die one way or another. Gina R Snape

I didn't think of that. Interesting angle.

Not that I am defending Lily, but isn't it likely that she was simply tired of Sev's continued obsession as far as Marauders were concerned? Joanna Lupin

Yes, and disappointed with his choice to hang with future DE's.

My best friend in highschool was a wonderful girl, whom I really connected with and had a lot of interests in common with. We were both band nerds, for one thing. But by the end of our senior year we were parting ways. One reason was that I was growing up and she wasn't. She was still picking fights with her parents and friends, dressing awkwardly and generally being clueless. She didn't get into devil worship or start hanging out with a racist, murderous gang. But I got tired of defending her when she kept stirring the pot, making her own problems. I wasn't the same person I was when we first became friends.

Severus Snape was the one who told Lily Evans she was a witch. I think just this fact made Severus important to Lily. Petunia was her sister and they had family life in common. But when Lily and Severus became friends, she was probably relieved to find out what was going on, why she was different. And she was happy to have this friend, Severus, to share this commonality.

If I had been 9 y.o. Lily I can totally imagine being friends with 9 y.o. Severus Snape. Primarily, he was probably infatuated with her from the moment he realized she was a witch. That kind of flattery was probably enticing to Lily, even if she wasn't immediately consciously aware that he liked her. Severus was probably funny. And he knew all this fascinating stuff about the wizarding world, a world that Lily would be introduced to shortly. Lily is the compassionate sort who was able to see past a person's appearance and nerdly personality.

And woman, we more than men are vulnerable to the idea that the love of a good woman can change a man. Perhaps, for a while, Lily thought her love and friendship for Severus would lead him along the right path.

Severus Snape chose the wrong path. By the time he was an older teen, he was making life-changing choices. Lily did what any healthy, self respecting woman should do, she ended her friendship with Severus, when it became clear that he was making no effort to lead a healthy, normal life.

I totally agree, our perception of Lily until Deathly Hallows has been of a sweet, beautiful, charming, entirely blameless character. I still can't see how Lily can be blamed for anything negative that happened to Severus Snape. That Lily could barely keep from laughing at Snape when he was in an absurd situation did nothing of consequence to him. I'm not sure what Lily is culpable of in Snape's life.

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Potteraholic - Aug 4, 2007 1:25 pm (#126 of 201)

Journeymom, I completely agree with your post and was about to post similar sentiments, but you beat me to it!

Some of the previous posts about Severus's and Lily's friendship characterized Lily as Sev's 'good friend'. From Sev's memories, it is clear that he regarded her in this way, and even more, but where is there any indication, by the time of the "mudblood epithet" incident anyway, that Lily held him in the same high regard?

I think Lily and Sev's friendship hits its peak in the 2nd year at Hogwarts, and then went downhill from there, at least for Lily. I think it was just a case of Lily outgrowing Severus. As many pointed out before, there were the practical reasons for this happening -- different housemates, different dorms, different dining tables, etc. -- and then the bigger issue of Sev's fascination with the Dark Arts and Death Eaters.

As a teacher, I've seen kids who were really close all throughout the elementary/primary school years begin to drift apart in middle/early secondary school. The drift occurs naturally, over things like their diverging tastes in music, sports, fashion, the arts, etc. and not over huge moral dilemmas like the ones that plagued Lily and Sev's friendship.

I think Lily did the best she could do for Severus in that situation (Snape's Worst Memory), but do wish that she could have at least accepted his apology.

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haymoni - Aug 4, 2007 1:59 pm (#127 of 201)
So, Gina, have you dyed your hair red yet???

Remember that video someone made of Snape with the "I am a Rock" song playing? Not too far off!

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Weeny Owl - Aug 4, 2007 3:33 pm (#128 of 201)
I can understand Lily's feelings about Snape's friends. It isn't just a case of not liking them. They are basically Nazis, and with their racist beliefs, it isn't a matter of personality conflicts. Lily just can't understand how Snape could possibly want to be with people who are so deeply into something so abhorrent.

Snape, on the other hand, doesn't understand why Lily seems to be overreacting. To him, it isn't really a big deal, except that he has friends who are fairly powerful. To him, Lily's blood isn't important, but he understands that it is to his friends, but if she sticks with him, he'll protect her and all will be well. He doesn't understand, just as Regulus didn't, that becoming a Death Eater isn't quite the grand and glorious thing it might first appear to be.

It sort of reminds me of "The Sound of Music," where Liesl and Rolfe are so smitten with each other, yet by the end, Rolfe is firmly entrenched in the Hitler Youth or whatever.

I don't see either of them as right or wrong. They were children for so much of their relationship, and even by the time Lily died, they weren't past their early twenties.

As for Lily and James, we found out in OotP that James lost some of his arrogance, so them ending up together isn't surprising. Aside from being attracted to each other, they were on the same side of the war, and having a kindred spirit can mean quite a lot.

I am glad that Snape was loved and could love in return. At least we know he's not some wretched thing at King's Cross.

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wynnleaf - Aug 4, 2007 4:16 pm (#129 of 201)
I totally agree, our perception of Lily until Deathly Hallows has been of a sweet, beautiful, charming, entirely blameless character. I still can't see how Lily can be blamed for anything negative that happened to Severus Snape. That Lily could barely keep from laughing at Snape when he was in an absurd situation did nothing of consequence to him. I'm not sure what Lily is culpable of in Snape's life. (journeymom)

I do not consider Lily culpable in Snape's life choices. I do think that the snippets we've got of their friendship shows her growing away from being his "best friend," even at a time that she was still saying she was his best friend. It's rather sad that Snape was so naive and couldn't see that it was no longer true.

I do think her finding any enjoyment out of his humiliation -- prior to him having given her any insult -- was wrong. I'll repeat, can anyone imagine Hermione reacting this way?

I tend to see the breakup of their friendship as something for which they were both responsible. Usually, I'd say that the "love of a good woman" wouldn't really change a guy. But in Snape's case, I do think he would at least have stayed out of the Death Eaters if they had still been close friends and he'd known that he'd have to give up the friendship if he joined Voldemort. But he'd probably still have kept an interest in Dark Magic.

One thing I can understand -- especially since JKR has never adequately explained Dark Magic to us -- is Snape's confusion over why his friend pulling a Dark Magic prank on another student is somehow worse in Lily's eyes than all the bullying and even life-threatening pranks of the Marauders. And given that JKR hasn't spelled out exactly why Dark Magic is so different from other spells used for bad purposes, I don't see the difference either. I realize there's supposed to be a difference, but it would have been nice to find out what it really was.

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Chemyst - Aug 4, 2007 5:06 pm (#130 of 201)
I do think her finding any enjoyment out of his humiliation -- prior to him having given her any insult -- was wrong. I'll repeat, can anyone imagine Hermione reacting this way?

Nope. Hermione is too intense. I can imagine Ginny acting that way, however. And I can imagine Harry, while probably not doing it himself, not really minding if someone else does it. I cannot imagine Luna doing it. Nor Neville. I can imagine Ron doing it prior to the Silver Doe chapter, but not so much now.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Marcus, I couldn't remember anyone ever calling Quirrell by his first name, so I went to the Lex to look it up. It says it is given only on the trading cards.

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Mediwitch - Aug 4, 2007 6:02 pm (#131 of 201)
wynnleaf: But in Snape's case, I do think he would at least have stayed out of the Death Eaters if they had still been close friends and he'd known that he'd have to give up the friendship if he joined Voldemort.

Didn't Jo say recently that Severus joined the DE thinking it would impress Lily? I'd have to look it up for the exact quote.

EDIT: Here it is, from the J. K. Rowling Web Chat Transcript:

Nithya: Lily detested mulciber,averyif snape really loved her,why didnt he sacrifice their company for her sake

J.K. Rowling: Well, that is Snape?s tragedy. Given his time over again he would not have become a Death Eater, but like many insecure, vulnerable people (like Wormtail) he craved membership of something big and powerful, something impressive.

J.K. Rowling: He wanted Lily and he wanted Mulciber too. He never really understood Lily?s aversion; he was so blinded by his attraction to the dark side he thought she would find him impressive if he became a real Death Eater.

Sorry, wynnleaf, I don't think Lily staying friends with him would have kept Severus out of the DEs.

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wynnleaf - Aug 4, 2007 6:29 pm (#132 of 201)
Mediwitch,

Note that I said that I thought Snape would not have joined the Death Eaters if he had currently been friends with Lily and had understood that joining the DEs would necessitate him giving up her friendship. This in no way conflicts with JKR's comment that Snape had originally thought that Lily would be impressed with him. After all, if he was getting the impression that Lily was attracted to cool, but bullying James, I can see how in his naive understanding he thought becoming a cool, Dark Death Eater might be attractive as well. So he might have thought her dislike of Death Eaters might be overcome.

But if he had learned that the Death Eaters and in particularly Lord Voldemort were so opposed to muggleborns that they would not allow him to continue a friendship with Lily, I don't think he'd have actually gone through with it. Of course, because the friendship had already ceased, that was no longer a consideration. Snape was the sort of personality who would probably assume that Lily would never reinstate the friendship anyway, so it wouldn't matter if he went ahead and joined up after she'd ended it.

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Magic Words - Aug 4, 2007 6:37 pm (#133 of 201)
What if Ron was being a prat and Hermione saw Zacharias Smith hit him with a Levicorpus? I think she might be the tiniest bit amused. (I don't think the Malfoy/Harry rivalry is a good comparison with Snape/Marauders in this respect because Malfoy is aligned with Death Eater ideals and would not have cast anything as harmless as a Levicorpus.)

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Gina R Snape - Aug 4, 2007 6:49 pm (#134 of 201)
haymoni, as it so happens I have dyed my hair red in the past.

As for Lily and Severus, I am not sure anything short of an extreme situation would have helped Severus to truly understand why Lily was opposed to the Death Eaters. Yet I can't help but wonder if things might have been different had she taken the time to believe him and his side of the story regarding the marauders, and had a real heart to heart about her feelings regarding the friendship with Avery and Mulciber.

If anyone needed a school social worker at this point, it was Severus Snape.

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spinowner - Aug 4, 2007 7:10 pm (#135 of 201)
Draco Malfoy in Madam Malkin's in Book 1: "...imagine being in Hufflepuff, I think I'd leave, wouldn't you?" James Potter on the Hogwarts Express in Book 7: "Who wants to be in Slytherin? I think I'd leave, wouldn't you?" I recognized the line right away when I read it in this chapter. I wonder if JKR knew when she wrote that in book 1 that she'd be using it again in book 7. It wouldn't surprise me if she did.

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Celestina Warbeck - Aug 5, 2007 2:18 am (#136 of 201)
Spinowner! I'd missed the Draco connection... interesting!

I thought Snape's story was completely satisfying. It was everything I had been expecting and hoping and a little more. I mean I had believed that Snape liked Lily. But somehow I had never imagined that he loved her enough to beg Voldemort for her life. I was stunned at the extent to which he loved her. The patronus had me in tears. He spent almost twenty years mourning the death of the one girl he loved and making amends. He played a dangerous game double crossing the Darkest wizard of all times all for the sake of that one love. It makes him a pretty brave character in my eyes. He wasn't a hero, but then in the books no one was perfecr, neither Harry, nor Dumbledore. Snape had a more sour disposition than most and that made him a more hated character. That he was prejudiced against Harry didn't help his image. But at the end of the day he was a man who payed for one wrong choice his entire life.

I must confess though that Snape's dying scene did not move me as much as it should have. But when I read The Prince's Tale, I just had to go back and read the death again because that's when I realized what it meant. Lily's eyes came back in a way I had just not expected! Brilliant!!!

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TomProffitt - Aug 5, 2007 3:06 am (#137 of 201)
Yet I can't help but wonder if things might have been different had she taken the time to believe him and his side of the story regarding the marauders ... --- Gina R Snape

I really don't think that there is sufficient evidence to know exactly what Snape accused the Marauders of in total, exactly how much Dark Magic Snape was involved with or witness to, and how much of either Lily was aware of. I think it is making very large unsupported suppositions to compare the "antics" of Snape & Mulciber with the Marauders. It is much too easy to draw the conclusion we prefer with the sparsity of evidence we possess.


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Gina R Snape - Aug 5, 2007 5:48 am (#138 of 201)
TomProffitt, I appreciate your desire for a more rational, scientific approach. But if we avoided discussion for lack of certain information, we'd have nothing to discuss at all. JKR gave us what she gave us, and it's all we have. And so that is what we shall use...

My point wasn't about comparing the marauders with Mulciber and Avery. My point was that Lily didn't really listen to Snape. She blew off all his concerns and arguments. I wonder if things would have been different if she had taken the time to really consider what he was saying might have some merit.

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TomProffitt - Aug 5, 2007 5:56 am (#139 of 201)
Gina, we have no basis for knowing whether or not "She blew off all his concerns and arguments." or whether or not " ... if she had taken the time to really consider what he was saying might have some merit." We have no way of knowing whether or not these two suppositions of yours are correct. That she did not draw the same conclusions as Snape does not mean that she did not consider them carefully and deliberately.

I don't have a problem with the asking of questions, but I think we should be more careful about drawing conclusions.

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Prefect Marcus - Aug 5, 2007 7:13 am (#140 of 201)
Gina,

How do you know that Lily didn't attempt to have many nice long heart-to-hearts with Severus, and but Severus kept blowing off her concerns? We see one instant of just that before the O.W.L. exam. She expressed her concerns, and he completely ignored them. He chose only to focus on what he wanted to hear and ignore what he didn't,

You would want Lily to continue in such a relationship?

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Chemyst - Aug 5, 2007 9:01 am (#141 of 201)
I wonder if things would have been different if she had taken the time to really consider what he was saying might have some merit. Gina

Probably; and it would go both ways. (Marcus pointed out the one side.) The few extra details we did get about Lily tend to support the view that she also made many decisions with a slytherinesque motive of self-preservation. She empathized with her sister only to a point, and then chose what she wanted or thought was best for herself. She treated Severus much the same way, and I doubt she thought she had anything to gain by really listening to him. We don't see selfless sacrifice, not even a sacrifice of a few minutes of time, until it comes to her son. What we saw in the Pensive was Lily defending Snape to a point she considered equal to the value she put on that friendship and then turning away when she reached its limit.
It would have been nice to get some back-story on Snape and Lily's inter-personal relationship as lab partners in a potions class, but alas, we didn't.

Furthermore, I don't think the Hogwarts house system is conducive to allowing quality time between students of different houses. True, Percy & Penelope seemed to find a way around that but they not only had a hormone-assist which Sev and Lily did not seem to have, P&P also didn't suffer from conflicting loyalties in ethics.

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Choices - Aug 5, 2007 9:29 am (#142 of 201)
Percy and Penelope were also Prefects which gave them a certain freedom that regular students don't have.

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wynnleaf - Aug 5, 2007 1:10 pm (#143 of 201)
I got the impression that Lily saw Snape quite differently from the way he saw her from the very beginning.

In their first meeting, she was angry at him for calling her a witch. Then she was angry because she assumed he intentionally dropped the limb on Petunia's arm (although his own fear and confusion make it more likely to have been accidental magic). While waiting for the train, I had the impression she was willing for the blame of reading Petunia's letter to be placed at Snape's door. And later at Hogwarts, as I said, she seemed to be distancing herself from Snape long before he even realized it.

It's not "good" or "bad." She just wasn't the wonderful friend to him that he imagined her to be. It's hardly surprising that she'd end the friendship because she didn't like his friends and didn't like his using a prejudicial slur. She never struck me as extremely committed to the friendship anyway.

What's fascinating to me the level of constancy that Snape had in his friendship toward her. He never wavered. Even when she dated and married the guy who had (in Snape's opinion) been in a plot to kill him, Snape still only thought the best of Lily. In spite of all of the propaganda of Slytherin House and pureblood ethics and even the Death Eater and Voldemort politics, he never wavered.

Even when he later, during his efforts to protect her son, decided Harry was just like the hated James (which was unjust of course), he still maintained his commitment to watch over Lily's child.

And I never had the impression that he stalked her. When she broke up the friendship we have no scenes of Snape following her, trying to interfere with her dating James or marrying him, trying to contact her -- nothing like that. He was simply constant in his commitment.

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Gina R Snape - Aug 5, 2007 2:15 pm (#144 of 201)
Prefect Marcus, we don't know if that happened either. But it seems likely that both Lily and Severus sort of shut each other out at crucial times as evidenced by the actions we saw. But as Wynnleaf points out, Severus never gave up on caring for Lily. There's something to be said for having a friend who believes in you steadfastedly even during a conflict.

Chemyst, if there's one thing I would like to see it's the fostering of house relations. They are set up to compete from the word go. If they had a school chorus or band or drama club or something similar that isn't about competition (I imagine even the gobstones club had competition between houses), it would go a long way to addressing some of the house divisiveness (sp?).

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haymoni - Aug 5, 2007 3:00 pm (#145 of 201)
I now understand Petunia's embarrassed look when Dumbledore came to her home!

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Celestina Warbeck - Aug 6, 2007 6:25 am (#146 of 201)
I think Lily and Snape's relationship was a bit complex. Their friendship started at the age of 11 when 'friends' usually mean just playmates who you hang out with. It is only as we grow older that we start to develop our value systems and judge our friends according to that. It seems that was what happened with Lily and Snape too. Lily got to know Snape at a time when she discovered that she was a witch and the idea of having someone around who was as 'different' as her and could share this new thing with her would have drawn her to Snape. As for Snape, coming from a troubled, abusive home, Lily would definitely have seemed like pleasant company!

Like it was just pointed out, being sorted into different houses would definitely have made it difficult for them to allow their relationship to develop into something more. I am however inclined to be kinder to Lily here. She stood up for Snape in front of her friends in spite of the fact that he was hanging out in not-so-nice circles. She stood by him because she knew him in his pre-Slytherin days too, and knew that there was more to him than just his inclination towards the Dark Arts. Of everyone in the series, Lily was probably the one who knew young Snape as a person the best. It was only when it reached a stage that she simply had to make a choice, that she parted ways with him.

Snape on the other hand probably liked her far more than she realized. He had feelings for her beyond just friendship which I suspect Lily didn't share. He wanted to stick around with her, and like JKR said he probably even thought that his Death Eater friends would make him look cooler.

The House system, however I always thought, would make it a little difficult for a person to break out of the identity mould that you were grouped into. E.g. A Slytherin would subconsciously avoid emulating qualities which were supposed to be characteristic of other houses, like loyalty or bravery. For young Snape, the lure of living up to the Slytherin name was probably stronger than any courage he might have needed to draw upon to keep alive his friendship with Lily. He failed in that difficult choice and paid for it. I definitely feel bad for him because he turned out to be far braver than a few Gryffindors that I know!!!

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M A Grimmett - Aug 6, 2007 1:33 pm (#147 of 201)
I don't think Lily ever felt anything more than friendship for Snape. I think their characters were too different to allow for anything more, but Snape really idealized her; I think he put her on a pedestal. Why not? She was pretty, smart, good at the same things he was, like potions, and they *were* friends. I think she symbolized all he wanted and he clutched at the memories harder over time because it was all he had left. You just don't find women like Lily in the Death Eaters.

I don't think Lily has blame over the Snape upside down incident. It might have been funny so see someone upside down, but when she realized who it was she lost the urge to smile. She's only human; to make her more is an injustice to her. She probably never thought of herself the way Snape saw her.

In a related item, it reminded me of when Moody was bouncing Malfoy the ferret up and down and McGonagall rushed to his rescue.

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wynnleaf - Aug 6, 2007 7:42 pm (#148 of 201)
In a related item, it reminded me of when Moody was bouncing Malfoy the ferret up and down and McGonagall rushed to his rescue.

Good comparison. In that scene, Hermione does laugh with Harry and Ron when Ron says he wants to fix the scene in his mind forever, but even then she goes on to talk about the seriousness of what fake-Moody did and how Draco could have been badly hurt. And Hermione was completely at odds with Draco and would have considered him something of a school-time enemy. Yet she is kinder in her response (true concern for what could hurt Draco), than Lily who after Snape used the "mudblood" word added insult to the injury he was already receiving by using a name he hated -- Snivellus -- and then publicly ridiculing him over his greying underwear when she knew what sort of family and background he came from.

If she had forgiven Snape later, I might consider her use of a hated name and the very personal ridicule to be a kind of tit for tat to Snape's use of the mudblood word. Perhaps they'd both have apologized for causing hurt and insult to each other. But Lily acted as though all of the insult was on Snape's part.

Just as she found Snape's use of the word "mudblood" slipping out to be very telling of his character, so do I find her quick willingness to not only use a hated name against him, but to publicly ridicule him about a personal matter as also somewhat "telling" of her character.

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NFla Barbara - Aug 7, 2007 1:47 pm (#149 of 201)
I guess I don't assume it was a "quick" willingness...I felt as though Snape using "mudblood" was a sort of last straw of things that had been brewing for a long time. Kids can be very cruel to each other at times, but I don't think it reveals anything about her essential nature, other than that she was not perfect (but I don't know any perfect people or anyone who hasn't, at some time in their lives, committed some small act of unintentional thoughtlessness).

I also don't have trouble thinking that Snape/Lily were friends past their second year. They were both extremely gifted in certain ways, more so than many others in their respective houses, and that would have fed into their connection. The fact that he was a loner might have kept her sympathetic to him even after she stopped thinking of him as a "best" friend.

But I still think it's a bit strange that Lupin or Sirius never mentioned, even in a disparaging way (that would be Siruis), that Lily and Snape had been friends.

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Soul Search - Aug 7, 2007 4:23 pm (#150 of 201)
NFla Barbara,

"But I still think it's a bit strange that Lupin or Sirius never mentioned ... that Lily and Snape had been friends."

Not so strange, I think. Both knew of Harry's hate for Snape. Telling him that someone he hated intensely had been friends with his saintly mother would have caused some real problems.

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[Mona]

rambkowalczyk - Aug 10, 2007 5:54 am (#151 of 201)
I think I understand why JKR didn't put any comment by Harry regarding Snape and his mother. I certainly expected an initial reaction of "Don't you dare think of my mom that way, you greasy git!" And I was hoping there would be an acknowledgement that Harry was wrong.

But in this time frame, Harry is dealing with one shock after another. First he witnesses Fred getting killed. Without properly grieving the trio make way for the Whomping Willow. On the way they are helpless to save Hagrid who is being carted off by spiders to meet some sort of horrible death. This affects Harry so much he can't conjure a Patronus. It bothers him that people are dying for him.

Then he sees Voldemort's most faithful servant killed in cold blood. Then Snape gives him memories and Harry doesn't know what to think. On returning back to the castle he discovers that Lupin and Tonks are both dead increasing his guilt.

He goes into Snape's memory to discover that the only way to defeat Voldemort and prevent future deaths is for him to die.

We who had only desired a fair resolution for Snape might have forgotten that this story is about Harry and that the big shock for Harry was not that Snape idolized his mother, or that Snape was misunderstood but that he, Harry had to die like the pig to slaughter.

When Harry heard this, he knew it to be true, that he had a horcrux buried in him. Therefore in the next chapter Harry is much preoccupied with going to his death.

I was sad that Snape wasn't the Lone Crusader, but the book would have been much longer to accommodate that theory. But the book says nothing about what happens to Snape's parents.

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wynnleaf - Aug 10, 2007 6:41 am (#152 of 201)
JKR did, after all, plan the progression of the book, and if she had wanted to include some place where Harry reflected on what he'd learned about Snape, she could have. I think she definitely should have done that.

I can understand it not happening in this chapter, because Harry is focused on what he's learning about his own destiny, rather than about Snape. But it's too bad that we are never shown the process of Harry's changed perspective.

As Ann pointed out in the Snape thread, a similar thing happens in Jane Austens Pride and Prejudice, where the revelations about the truth of Darcy are given to Elizabeth via letter, which the reader and Elizabeth read without interruption of her thoughts or realizations about what she's reading. But then later, we do get Elizabeth's thought process as she realizes how different the truth is from her original assumptions. It's a huge turning point in the book.

But even though JKR built up the Harry and Snape enmity over each book, to the point of a personal hatred beyond even what he felt for Voldemort, JKR never shows us Harry's reversal of perspective. All we see is the effect of it at the end, with his son's name.

We do later get Harry relating the revelations he sees in this chapter, but without any relating of his personal thoughts about the matter -- sort of a "just the facts" kind of recitation.

I'm not sure why JKR didn't do it. I'm wondering if the real reason is that JKR wanted Harry to forgive Snape as a plot point, but could not bring herself to actually write out the point of forgiveness. JKR is so ambivalent about Snape. Perhaps that's why she couldn't write Harry's actual forgiveness, only have it implied later.

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Soul Search - Aug 10, 2007 2:31 pm (#153 of 201)
I don't think there could have been much more devoted to Harry "forgiving" Snape.

First, Snape is dead. Harry can't offer forgiveness to him; any revision of his opinion would only be in Harry's mind.

What is there to forgive? True, Harry thought Snape was a little more evil than he really was, but Harry's opinion wasn't that far off the mark.

Harry developed his opinion of Snape from the way Snape treated him, right from the start and right up to their parting. That doesn't change.

Harry learned enough about Snape to alter his opinion from Snape's pensieve memory. The same memory that told Harry he had to die. Snape might have had mixed feelings, giving that memory to Harry, and causing Harry's death. If Snape cared at all for Harry, he wouldn't have given him the memory.

Snape really didn't do anything for Harry, only for Lily. Can causing the death of Harry's parents be made up for by any amount of remorse and later help? Not in my mind. I think Harry mis-named his second son.

JKR is good, but I don't think even she could have worked this all out in the Chapter 36 story timeframe. Even much later, it would have been difficult. "Albus Severus" was a good way out.

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haymoni - Aug 10, 2007 3:52 pm (#154 of 201)
I wonder what Snape's mom was telling him by the train?

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TomProffitt - Aug 10, 2007 3:52 pm (#155 of 201)
Albus Severus Potter would have been born about eight years after this chapter. That's a lot of time for Harry to reflect on the role Snape played in his life, too. I don't think viewing the memories in the pensieve was quite like switching a light bulb in Harry's mind and completely changing his opinion of Snape.

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haymoni - Aug 10, 2007 7:07 pm (#156 of 201)
He seemed to get it clear enough to try to explain it to Voldy.

Forgiveness and admiration probably came later though.

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wynnleaf - Aug 10, 2007 9:52 pm (#157 of 201)
I think Harry mis-named his second son. (Soul Search)

I think JKR never made her case for Harry naming his son after Snape. We only see Harry's comment that Snape was the bravest man he ever knew. But would anyone name their son after a brave, but evil man? One would hope that JKR doesn't intend us to think that Harry named his son after someone evil. Yet she never shows us what actually changed about Harry's perspective.

Up until the end of HBP, Harry at least thought Snape was probably working for DD, even if he sometimes had doubts. And he hated him. He certainly wouldn't have named any son after Snape with that attitude.

But before the epilogue of DH, the only perspective that we see change is that Harry no longer thinks Snape is a traitor and believes he was loyal to Dumbledore. So what? How does that put Harry in a different place than he was early in HBP? Why does Harry stop hating Snape and apparently stop thinking he's some evil loathsome person?

He must have stopped believing this about Snape, because I think JKR at least intends us to understand that Harry didn't name his son after a man he hated and despised. So why doesn't Harry hate and despise Snape any more?

We can guess of course, but without being shown anything about Harry's thought process, we have no idea. So in that respect, I agree that the Albus Severus name at the end has no real explanation. For all we are actually told or shown, Harry could have named his son after a man who, except for his great bravery, Harry hated and despised. But since Harry, brave himself, never seemed too impressed by the bravery of others, I find it hard to believe that bravery alone would move him to name his son after Snape.

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Columbine Fairy - Aug 11, 2007 2:48 am (#158 of 201)
Naming his son after Snape could have been a mark of gratitude for everything Snape did. He could have felt grateful without actually learning to like him. He may have appreciated Snape's actions more as something he did for Lily, rather than what he did for Harry. Albus having Lily's eyes may have had something to do with it too.

Or perhaps he gave Albus that middle name as a reminder that "the world isn't split into good people and death eaters".

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Rea - Aug 11, 2007 3:41 am (#159 of 201)
Snape might have had mixed feelings, giving that memory to Harry, and causing Harry's death. If Snape cared at all for Harry, he wouldn't have given him the memory. SoulSearch

...

I have to disagree with you, I think that giving Harry the memory is Snape's highest moment: it means that he was no more a Death Eater nor the egoistic boy who wanted to save Lily but not her husband and child. He worked to save the wizarding world and not just to keep Lily's son safe, as he said to Dumbledore in the doe's episode. Defeating the Dark Lord was the reason he died for, and a man that sacrifies his life for that, can no more be considered as evil. It remembered me a novel, by Fred Uhlman, Reunion, maybe someone else noticed the similarity...?

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wynnleaf - Aug 11, 2007 5:39 am (#160 of 201)
Soul Search,

You said, If Snape cared at all for Harry, he wouldn't have given him the memory.

This implies that you don't think Dumbledore cared anything for Harry either. After DH, is that what you think?

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Soul Search - Aug 11, 2007 6:22 am (#161 of 201)
Dumbledore knew (glint in his eye in GoF) Harry had a good chance to come back after his death. Dumbledore did care for Harry, but he also cared for the wizarding world. Snape only knew Harry would die.

This whole thing gets real complicated.

Snape didn't care about Harry at all when he went to Dumbledore on the hilltop.

I can't recall any evidence, even a hint, that Snape ever cared for Harry. Best I can come up with is Snape still instructing Harry as Harry is trying to curse him for killing Dumbledore, but that could be taken a couple of ways.

When Dumbledore tells Snape Harry has to die, Snape only expresses concern for the sixteen years he has spent helping Dumbledore protect Harry, not for Harry himself.

Snape was dying. If he gave Harry the memory, Harry would die too. Snape would have thought this ending fitting.

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TomProffitt - Aug 11, 2007 6:38 am (#162 of 201)
I can't recall any evidence, even a hint, that Snape ever cared for Harry. --- Soul Search

This has pretty much been my impression of Snape as well, but I can see some of where others come from on this subject. I don't think that it is necessary for Harry's eventual respect for Snape to believe that Harry ever thought Snape cared for him personally. It was enough for Harry to understand that Snape believed in the task before him enough to give up his life.

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Phelim Mcintyre - Aug 11, 2007 7:34 am (#163 of 201)
Soul Search, Tom Profitt - I agree. When Dumbledore asks Snape whether he has actually come to care for Harry he states that he has not and produces hsi patronus. Even then he still does not care for Harry, he only cares for Lily - a grief he hasn't come to terms with. Not only does Harry remind Snape of James Potter, his greatest enemy at Hogwarts, Harry reminds him of Lily who's loss he has never come to terms with and his failure to protect her. The giving of the memories is an act of self justification and information giving not an act of compassion.

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Madame Pomfrey - Aug 11, 2007 9:05 am (#164 of 201)
Snape was dying. If he gave Harry the memory, Harry would die too. Snape would have thought this ending fitting. Soulsearch.

The moment Voldemort started to protect Nagini,it was Dumbledore's order for Snape to give Harry the memory informing Harry that he is a horcrux and must die by the hand of Voldemort.

The giving of the memories is an act of self justification and information giving not an act of compassion.Phelim.

The memories of Lily were of Snapes own doing. I got the impression that Snape,on his death bed,wanted Harry to at least understand why he has treated him the way he has and to also let Harry know that killing Dumbledore was a request from the already dying Dumbledore. IMO,he was clearing his conscience which alot of people on their deathbeads do.

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wynnleaf - Aug 11, 2007 11:38 am (#165 of 201)
Soul Search,

Dumbledore only knew Harry had a chance to live by the end of GOF. Prior to that Dumbledore was also willing for Harry to die. He was not, after all, trying to send Harry off somewhere and hide him away from ever coming into contact with Voldemort, who Dumbledore knew would return.

As regards Snape, I agree that Snape did not care about Harry personally. But Snape did care for the lives of others, else why was he not standing by and watching people die if he could save them? Here was a case of a person he could attempt to save if he'd not given him the memories. If Harry -- who was master of the wand -- had attacked Voldemort with intent to kill, rather than going meekly to his death, Voldemort's body might have died and Harry lived. Yet Harry would still have LV's horcrux within him. Snape knew that a piece of Voldemort lived in Harry. He could have not given the memory and helped Harry to live (as far as Snape knew Dumbledore wanted Harry to die), while retaining the horcrux, but he didn't.

We do see in this chapter that Snape does protect lives of people whom he doesn't personally like (Lupin, for instance). So why not protect Harry's life as well, especially when Snape had so much motivation to protect him as Lily's son?

I suppose one's viewpoint depends in part on just how much you think he loved Lily. It seems to me that he risked his life so long and worked so hard after Lily's death, as well as retaining her as a patronus, that we're supposed to believe that his love for her was exceedingly great. One would assume therefore that his love for her would keep him from giving those memories to Harry.

But it's clear that in spite of his great love for Lily and his own 16 year mission to protect Harry, Snape ultimately decided to agree with Dumbledore's plan for Harry to die.

Does this make Snape evil or his decision wrong? Or does the decision to give the memories in and of itself prove Snape didn't care for Harry?

Look back at the chapter The Missing Mirror. Aberforth makes this same argument to Harry, basically saying that if Dumbledore really cared anything about Harry, he would tell him to save himself and survive.

"Why didn't he tell him to hide, then?" shot back Aberforth. "Why didn't he say to him, 'Take care of yourself, here's how to survive?'"

"Because," said Harry before Hermione could answer, "sometimes you've got to think about more than your own safety! Sometimes you've got to think about the great good! This is war!"

I think JKR is having Snape reach the same point of decision that Harry has -- that it is a time to be willing to sacrifice anything, and even accept that you may be ordered to your death, in order to win the war. For Snape, I think the challenge was being willing to give up protecting Lily's son (as opposed to protecting Harry, if you see what I mean). For Harry, it was accepting that Dumbledore could still care for him personally, while sending him in directions that could kill him.

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Chemyst - Aug 11, 2007 2:21 pm (#166 of 201)
Deliberately withholding that kind of information would certainly not have been love, no matter how much one tries to rationalize it; and it would not have been protection either. It would have been toying with Harry's life like the gods of Mount Olympus.

Snape ultimately decided to agree with Dumbledore's plan for Harry to die.
In my copy of the book, Snape looked personally into Harry's eyes. It was wizard to wizard, with no hint of coercion for a greater good. Unlike Dumbledore who had saddled Snape with all sorts of duties and requests, Snape just gave Harry his view of the facts and let Harry decide.

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NFla Barbara - Aug 12, 2007 12:03 pm (#167 of 201)
I am again in agreement with you, wynnleaf.

Don't forget also the exchange between Snape and DD where DD asked him how many people Snape had watched die. Snape's response is along the lines of "Lately, only those whom I could not save." (Sorry, my son has the book now and I can't check the exact quote.) I think Snape went beyond protecting what remained of Lily's son and chose a side. The book makes clear that Snape is aware that DD has not told Snape everything, but he still places his faith in DD (much like Harry). Holding back on those memories at the end would have been reneging on his promise to DD and would have served LV's ends, not the "greater good."

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Choices - Aug 12, 2007 2:14 pm (#168 of 201)
wynnleaf - "But would anyone name their son after a brave, but evil man?"

You are certainly entitled to think of Snape as evil, but I do not see him that way. Just because he doesn't like Harry does not make him evil. Just because he is an unpleasant, bitter, lonely man does not make him evil. Just because he temporarily joined the DE's does not make him evil (I think misguided might be a better word). I can't think of one thing he has done that I would consider truly evil. We never see him killing or torturing, we never see him using an Unforgivable Curse - not that I can remember. He does what is right and not what is easy. Again, he is not a nice man, but I just can't think of him as evil.

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Phelim Mcintyre - Aug 13, 2007 12:48 am (#169 of 201)
I don't see Snape as evil, but neither do I see Snape as having come to have positive feelings for Harry. He did his job well and was driven to do it by his unrequented love for Lily. He gave the memory because there was information there that Harry had to have, that Dumbledore told him to give Harry, and this was the only way. He also wanted Harry to know why he had done what he had done, it was part of the bigger picture of information that Harry needed. Harry gave Albus Snape's name as the middle one. To me this suggests that there was still some stigma (even amongst the Weasleys) to the name Severus.

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M A Grimmett - Aug 13, 2007 6:22 am (#170 of 201)
The greater good is pretty harsh. While I do think DD cared for Harry, he was still willing to sacrifice him if it meant the end of LV. Snape may have saved Harry's life, but not out of fondness or compassion for him--it was all down to Lily. Much like life with the Dursleys. In the end, Lily as his mother was much more important to Harry's fate than James as his dad. DD played Snape, knowing what his weakness was, in order to achieve his long-term goal. DD was a master manipulator. Snape in my opinion was weak and selfish rather than evil. Like Harry, Snape's early life before Hogwarts was a real grind. At Hogwarts, each found friends and companions who reflect his priorities and interests. The two are different however, since Harry is famous and interesting when he arrives, and Snape is unpleasant looking and weird, with virtually no social skills. Who knows what Snape could have been in a different House, but I'm betting he really liked Slytherin since his abilities and interests led him to seek power to get a measure of respect he couldn't command on his own. You can't over-estimate the power of belonging to the insecure, bullied, and friendless, or the attraction of power to those who have never had any.

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Esther Rose - Aug 13, 2007 6:23 am (#171 of 201)
I don't think the reasons why Snape did what he did matters at all to Harry. Snape could out and outright hate Harry. Despite all that Harry is greatful for what Snape did do, no matter the reason. But to fight against Voldemort at any cost in his mother's honor must have been pulling at Harry's heart strings. Secondly, Snape did give Harry the one thing probably every orphaned child desperately wants to know. Snape (selfishly or otherwise) had given Harry memories of what his mother was like while she was alive. And just not one memory at one age. Quite a few of them and all of them show Lily in a loving and respectable way.

Yes, Snape can be spiteful and generally an unlikable person but it is his deeds that Harry is honoring.

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wynnleaf - Aug 13, 2007 9:38 pm (#172 of 201)
wynnleaf - "But would anyone name their son after a brave, but evil man?"

You are certainly entitled to think of Snape as evil, but I do not see him that way. (Choices)

Choices, you know me better than that!! Of course I don't think Snape was evil. This is me, right? (Checks mirror just to be sure.)

I was being rhetorical and also stating the opposite of what I thought. In other words, if Harry actually considered Snape's actions indicative of an evil person, albeit a brave person, would he still have named his son after such a brave, but evil person? I truly doubt that. Therefore, although Harry only speaks of Snape's bravery, his naming his son after Snape shows us that Harry had quite revised his opinion of Snape to no longer believe him evil, but in fact admirable -- and not solely for bravery.

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Choices - Aug 14, 2007 8:58 am (#173 of 201)
LOL Wynnleaf. I must have had a momentary attack of Wrackspurt. What was I thinking? :-)

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Choices - Aug 16, 2007 5:42 pm (#174 of 201)
"Every month at the full moon?" - Snape had already figured out Lupin's problem while they were at school.

At the time Snape treats Dumbledore for his blackened hand, Dumbledore already knows that Voldemort is planning to have Draco (try to) kill him.

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JustJude - Aug 21, 2007 11:15 am (#175 of 201)
Just joined the forum and my first posting will be about lovely Sev (or am I just confusing the character with the fantastic Alan Rickman? that's for another thread quite possibly...)

Question... once Snape is killed, will his portrait magically appear in the headmaster's office cf. with DD's death and subsequent appearance of his portrait in HBP?

If so, surely Harry could have spoken with it/Snape? Assuming portrait-Snape isn't asleep like portrait-DD in HBP... If not, why not? Snape is a recognised/accepted Headmaster of Hogwarts, surely he would be automatically accoladed with a portrait? Or is there some rule as to who gets a portrait or not? I don't recall any specific info regarding Hogwarts Headteacher's portraits. Any thoughts? (sorry for being long winded!)

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Joanna Lupin - Aug 21, 2007 12:13 pm (#176 of 201)
JKR said in an interview that Snape didn't automatically get a portrait because he abandoned the school or something.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 21, 2007 12:34 pm (#177 of 201)
In the Webchat conducted by Bloomsbury J.K. Rowling asserted that Snape did not merit inclusion among the headmasters because he effectively abandoned his post as Headmaster after his confrontation with McGonagall and Flitwick. However, she said Harry would make certain that in spite of this act his portait was placed alongside those of the other headmasters.

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Mrs Brisbee - Aug 21, 2007 4:51 pm (#178 of 201)
LOL! Snape will then get the big portrait behind the desk? I bet McGonagall will love that: him hanging over her while she works, reminding her about the time she tried to kill him.

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Caput Draconis - Aug 21, 2007 11:24 pm (#179 of 201)
Sigh. Poor Snape. Like so many others I had been desperate for the knowledge this chapter gave us, and was ultimately satisfied with the final look at my favourite character. I didn't think Snape Loves Lily could ever ring so true, or be so powerful. Sigh.

It kills me that Snape was forced to flee Hogwarts at the end. It was just as important to him as it was to Harry and Voldemort, in terms of it feeling like home. And the last words he ever heard coming from that castle? Coward. That must have hurt. It's like a final nail in the Misunderstood In Life coffin. And by McGonagall, who he worked with and studied under... Aaaagh! Kills me.

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JustJude - Aug 22, 2007 5:21 am (#180 of 201)
Thanks for the clarifications

Caput Draconis - love the avatar.

Okay another question... how does portrait-DD know the date of Harry's departure from Privet Drive? Assuming of course that no one from the Order is talking to Snape any more, but how does portrait-DD have the info?

unless the answer is somewhere in the transcript of JKR's webcast... if so, i shall point myself there shortly for a full update!

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Mrs Brisbee - Aug 22, 2007 5:49 am (#181 of 201)
It kills me that Snape was forced to flee Hogwarts at the end. It was just as important to him as it was to Harry and Voldemort, in terms of it feeling like home. And the last words he ever heard coming from that castle? Coward. That must have hurt. It's like a final nail in the Misunderstood In Life coffin. And by McGonagall, who he worked with and studied under... Aaaagh! Kills me.--Caput Draconis

Guess it was a mistake on Snape's and Dumbledore's part not to trust Minerva McGonagall I'd feel sorrier for Snape if he wasn't The Only Order Member Dumbledore Ever Trusted. Bad planning, in my opinion. Poor Snape. It's too bad he wasn't evil because that Snape-shaped window exit was pretty funny.

Okay another question... how does portrait-DD know the date of Harry's departure from Privet Drive? Assuming of course that no one from the Order is talking to Snape any more, but how does portrait-DD have the info?-- JustJude

Actually, I'm not sure if Portrait Dumbledore knew, or Snape brought him the information wondering what to do with it. Snape may or may not have gotten it from Mundungus Fletcher. Dumbledore may or may not have gotten it from listening in on conversations while McGonagall was deputy headmistress after his death. I'm sure she never dreamed that Portrait Dumbledore would be betraying her while she was in charge of the castle. I don't think Rowling makes it clear where the information came from.

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legolas returns - Aug 22, 2007 9:51 am (#182 of 201)
I thought that the portrait was giving orders to everyone. He would know the exact date of removing Harry from Privet Dirve as a result. There is no other way that he could know unless Finius Nigellus had passed him the information if they had discussed it at Grimauld Place.

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JustJude - Aug 22, 2007 2:18 pm (#183 of 201)
Actually, I'm not sure if Portrait Dumbledore knew, or Snape brought him the information wondering what to do with it. Snape may or may not have gotten it from Mundungus Fletcher. Dumbledore may or may not have gotten it from listening in on conversations while McGonagall was deputy headmistress after his death. I'm sure she never dreamed that Portrait Dumbledore would be betraying her while she was in charge of the castle. I don't think Rowling makes it clear where the information came from. -- Mrs Brisbee

I thought that the portrait was giving orders to everyone. He would know the exact date of removing Harry from Privet Dirve as a result. There is no other way that he could know unless Finius Nigellus had passed him the information if they had discussed it at Grimauld Place. -- legolas returns

In Snape's memory that Harry is viewing through the Pensieve, it reads as though DD is telling Snape that he (Snape) will have to tell Voldemort the correct date of Harry's departure from Privet Drive. So, how does DD know this date? With whom is he communicating, from the Order? Are we to assume that McGonagall gets private portrait-DD time, without Snape in the office? Or maybe that portrait-DD goes through the Hogwarts paintings to McGonagall's office? lots of assumptions there....

I thought that Grimmauld Place was no longer used as HQs once DD died? So that might rule out the Phinneas Nigellus line...?

any other ideas? this has sort of bugged me for a few weeks now! the rest of the story is so neatly finished off, i can't believe there isn't a good explanation for this.

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Wanda - Aug 23, 2007 1:01 am (#184 of 201)
I took it that Snape had already tracked down Mundungus and Imperiused him, and that's how he got the info.

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Columbine Fairy - Aug 23, 2007 5:08 pm (#185 of 201)
No he already knew then, because DD tells him he will have to give LV the correct date, but to perhaps try confunding Mundungus to give them a chance.

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Columbine Fairy - Aug 23, 2007 5:14 pm (#186 of 201)
You know, Caput Draconis, this have never occurred to me before, but now you mention it, it is a shame that the last Snape saw of the colleagues he had worked with and under for so long, was them chasing him out as a traitor and calling him a coward. When I read it, I just thought, "oh right, he's dead" as at the time I didn't have much emotion to spare for Snape. But thinking about it, I can see it was quite a loveless end to a pretty loveless life. Sad.

(He was still a despicable character though, just in case anyone thought I'd changed my mind about him.)

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Wanda - Aug 24, 2007 12:41 am (#187 of 201)
I know that's what it said in the book, but I interpreted it that he'd already been in touch with Mundungus before then. I don't know what gave me that impression though.

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Holly T. - Sep 13, 2007 8:03 am (#188 of 201)
I was listening to this chapter this morning in the car--the password to the office is "Dumbledore." I thought, after reading it several times, that the gargoyles at the door were damaged and not working properly, but I guess that's at the end. Or I thought that they just let Harry in since they knew him. Only on listening to it did I realize that it was Snape's office--Snape's password was "Dumbledore." No way the Death Eaters would have guessed that one.

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Soul Search - Sep 13, 2007 11:44 am (#189 of 201)
Holly T,

"... it was Snape's office--Snape's password was "Dumbledore."

Good pickup! I missed that connection. Probably since Snape had "done a bunk" and wasn't around, but you are still right.

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Choices - Sep 13, 2007 2:07 pm (#190 of 201)
I wondered about that - was it Snape's password, or since he had fled Hogwarts and deserted his headmaster post, did the office revert to another password? When Dumbledore was headmaster and left the castle under dire circumstances, the office sealed itself against entry by unauthorized persons. I wondered if because Harry needed to see/be closer to Dumbledore, however impossible that was, the office recognized this and allowed Harry in when he simply said "Dumbledore"?

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haymoni - Sep 13, 2007 5:34 pm (#191 of 201)
I like Holly T's version - sniff!

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PeskyPixie - Sep 23, 2007 6:13 pm (#192 of 201)
Ever since Voldemort told Snape that Harry might try to break into Hogwarts, Snape knew he'd find a way in (PoA: 'you don't know Potter like I do!'). This is why he didn't change into his jammies (or in his case, his long grey nightshirt) on that fateful night. He had reason to believe that his time to act with Harry was probably approaching and was therefore searching the school corridors for him. Perhaps he did not want the Carrows to enter the headmaster's office until he had had a moment with Harry and thus chose 'Dumbledore' as a sort of emergency password?

On a separate note, while re-reading the scene aboard the Hogwarts Express I got a little lump in my throat as all four children (Lily, James, Severus and Sirius) would not live to reach their 40th birthdays.

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Joanna Lupin - Sep 24, 2007 4:31 am (#193 of 201)
Why on earth not?

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PeskyPixie - Sep 24, 2007 6:22 am (#194 of 201)
Joanna, is your previous post a response to mine? If so, I don't quite follow you.

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Joanna Lupin - Sep 24, 2007 6:59 am (#195 of 201)
Sorry...

You said: 'On a separate note, while re-reading the scene aboard the Hogwarts Express I got a little lump in my throat as all four children (Lily, James, Severus and Sirius) would not live to reach their 40th birthdays.'

I guess I should have paid more attention to what I'm reading (or which chapter we're discussing), but I got the impression you meant Harry's kids dying young and I sort of got jumpy. But yes, that's sad. 'sniff'

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haymoni - Sep 26, 2007 4:21 pm (#196 of 201)
I read it that way at first also, Joanna!

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Victoire Weasley - Oct 5, 2007 7:48 am (#197 of 201)
It doesn't look like anyone has posted to this thread in a while, but I was wondering if there were any thoughts about why Snape's final words were "Look...at...me."

I wasn't sure at first, but after the third reading I thought about the eye's. Harry's eyes. Lily's eyes. Maybe he felt like he was looking at Lily one last time.

Or maybe he was trying to use Legilimency on him. But for what?

Any ideas?

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Choices - Oct 5, 2007 9:46 am (#198 of 201)
I think there have been quite a few discussions about it being one last look into Lily's eyes that Snape wanted.

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NFla Barbara - Oct 5, 2007 3:00 pm (#199 of 201)
Victoire, I think most recently we talked about this a bit on the "He Has His Mother's Eyes" thread...you might want to skim some of that.

I don't think poor Sev had any time or energy for legilemency. There is an essay on the forum about Snape's eyes that suggested (pre-DH) that Snape and Harry would exchange "one last look," and that it would be a moment where Snape asked for forgiveness or understanding. I think Snape did that by sharing the memories he did (if all he wanted to do was tell Harry what Harry had to do next, he could have just shared the one memory of Snape talking to DD and been done with it). But Harry has always been able to pick up on the fact that Snape didn't like him for some reason (even before they ever met officially in PS/SS, Harry got the feeling that Snape did not like him). So maybe it was a moment where Harry looked at Snape without sensing dislike. I really don't think there was time for more, but I could be wrong!

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Choices - Oct 5, 2007 4:45 pm (#200 of 201)
NFla Barbara - "I don't think poor Sev had any time or energy for legilemency."

Good thinking. Duh - that didn't even occur to me. LOL Of course, a dying man would hardly waste time using legilimency when he wouldn't live long enough to use the information he gleaned.

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Victoire Weasley - Oct 8, 2007 9:14 am (#201 of 201)
I think you're right, there would be no use for Snape performing Legilimency because he didn't need anything from Harry. It was harry who needed information from him. But to give Snape credit, I think he is an accomplished Legilimens and could have done it if he truly needed to.

Potter, if only you knew how to perform legilimency...

I'll check out the other threads, thanks.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

[Mona]

Kip Carter - Jul 19, 2007 5:47 am
Edited Jul 25, 2007 12:43 am
This thread is to discuss Only Chapter Thirty-Four - The Forest Again of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows!


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Ms Hagrid - Jul 22, 2007 6:55 am (#1 of 54)
I have to say that this is the part where I finally just broke down and cried buckets - actually had to go get a glass of water and pull myself together before I could continue! Facing his own death, meeting his dead loved ones, the dead loved ones walking with him to his death. Dear me, I'm crying again as I write this....

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azi - Jul 22, 2007 7:01 am (#2 of 54)
**hugs Ms Hagrid**

I almost cried too. It was a very touching scene!

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Madam Pince - Jul 22, 2007 12:09 pm (#3 of 54)
Poor Colin Creevey.

Wonder why only those particular souls came back to walk beside Harry? Were they the people he's felt closest to or something? I sort of expected to see Fred and Mad-Eye and, well, everyone maybe.

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Mare - Jul 22, 2007 2:03 pm (#4 of 54)
I expected Cedric, because even though they were not close friends, Harry thought a lot about him, and his death.

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Madame Librarian - Jul 22, 2007 2:57 pm (#5 of 54)
A very moving chapter. I had to stop reading a go fold laundry of all things before I could continue.

I really got to me when Harry looks as his mother and says, "Stay close to me..." (Sniff, and tears up again as she's types this)

Ciao. Barb

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Ann - Jul 22, 2007 5:09 pm (#6 of 54)
This chapter was truly beautiful. But I agree with whoever it was who said in the previous chapter's discussion that Snape should have come back as well. The four who come back are Harry's principal protectors, his honor guard as he goes off to his death, and I think Snape should have been counted among them. Lily would have been glad to be with him, anyway, and you'd think James would have been grateful, too. Or she could have had him emerging from the shadows, as Harry's other protectors disappear.

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TomProffitt - Jul 22, 2007 5:18 pm (#7 of 54)
I think the reason that Snape wasn't there was that Snape never loved Harry. He only loved Lily. He didn't protect Harry for Harry's sake as all the others would have done, he did it for Lily. That's why Snape doesn't belong in the group.

We know in the end that Harry respected Snape, but I doubt that he ever loved him the way he did the others.

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freshwater - Jul 22, 2007 8:21 pm (#8 of 54)
I know, the "stay close to me" line really got me. The whole aspect of what Harry was choosing to do and to face, and with such honesty and awareness....amazing.

LittleGinny - Jul 23, 2007 2:55 am (#9 of 54)[/b]
My take on it is that those are The Marauders coming back. Lily is replacing Peter, who never was a true Marauder, as it turned out. Of course, all the others that died were extremely important to Harry as well, but the Marauders were his extended parents, in a way. Sirius was his godfather, Remus was the first sort-of father figure he experienced (DD was much more like a grandfather, and Mr Weasley always was Ron's father foremost (and Mr Weasley is still alive anyway)). Harry now knows that during the first year of his life, he was protected and loved by those people, and at the end, they come back, looking after him once more. For a final time, The Marauders ride again, forming, as Ann put it, his 'Guard of Honour'.

Just my twopence.

~Mary Ann

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Pamzter - Jul 23, 2007 4:06 pm (#10 of 54)
I think those that came back to walk with him were people he truly loved and felt were family. They were also the ones that everything began with. (and I think he was still feeling betrayed by DD.

I LOVE the "Guard of Honour" analogy!

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Solitaire - Jul 23, 2007 9:00 pm (#11 of 54)
In the chapter 33 thread, Ann wrote the following: JKR really cheated us by not saying a single word about Harry's reaction to Snape's memories as he sees them. This is a really important change in Harry's view of the world, and we are not given any idea of how the memories affect him of what he feels.

Ann, you are correct that Harry has received a tremendous amount of information which must affect all those little prejudices and beliefs to which he has clung for so long. Unfortunately, he does not have the luxury of time to sit and reflect and react as we think he should do to what he has heard, because he has a deadline looming in his face. I think we do see him react, though. He reacts by accepting what he hears, clearly, calmly, and without question. He is collected enough to make a request of Neville, so that the mission Dumbledore gave to him can be completed, whatever happens to him. I think Harry's reaction is perfect.

Solitaire

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Pamzter - Jul 23, 2007 9:49 pm (#12 of 54)
The way I read it is that Harry's reaction to Snape's memories is to make the decision to be as brave as Snape was, to do what he knows must now be done.

I don't believe Harry was giving in to being backed in to a corner by DD, but rather making a clear choice with the example of Severus to follow.

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 24, 2007 6:20 am (#13 of 54)
Methinks Harry had a lot of examples to follow, and he followed his own drummer...

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Madam Pince - Jul 24, 2007 1:39 pm (#14 of 54)
LittleGinny, your explanation that it is the Marauders escorting Harry makes more sense to me than anything my poor little brain could come up with.

I looooove the idea Ann had on the Overview thread about Snape (also a protector, although unknown at the time) -- basically that he is there too, but walking along behind, unnoticed and unappreciated just as he always was in life... *sniff, sniff*

***Stop it, TomProffitt -- I can hear your eyeballs rolling around in your head! Just kidding!***

I feel like if these are supposed to be Harry's protectors, then certainly Snape and Dumbledore should be there, but then again, perhaps since Snape just died, he hasn't had time to "assimilate himself" or whatever yet, and maybe Dumbledore's busy again...

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Tazzygirl - Jul 24, 2007 3:20 pm (#15 of 54)
Add me to the group that cried buckets and had to stop to go do laundry when reading this chapter. I don't think I cried so much over a chapter in my entire life.

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Madam Pince - Jul 24, 2007 4:31 pm (#16 of 54)
I must be a cold-hearted so-and-so -- this chapter didn't affect me at all. (except for Colin Creevey... )

I think I just never got... attached, I guess is the word... to James, Lily, Sirius, or especially Lupin. Odd, but there it is.

I think I was just in a hurry to read it to see what happens when he finally gets to Voldemort. I was more worried for Hagrid, that he might do something stupid and get himself AK'd trying to save Harry or something.

Well, I will say that Harry's tremulous question "Will it hurt?" caused a bit of a pang...

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NFla Barbara - Jul 24, 2007 4:41 pm (#17 of 54)
As much as I would have liked to see one or two more people in the "honor guard" (any excuse to see a few more minutes of Snape, for me!) -- there was a certain symmetry in the group being a group of friends and peers -- just as Harry went through everything leading up to this with Hermione and Ron. From that point of view it makes sense that Snape would not be there, since he was not friends with anyone except Lily, and that DD would not be there, since he was their elder in the wizarding world.

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Rose Weasley - Jul 25, 2007 6:02 am (#18 of 54)
I also think it would not have been right for Snape to be there. Even if Harry ask him to come back i doubt if Snape would have wanted to be there himself. He protected Harry for Lily he risked his life and soul for one only reason. Therefore it wouldnt have been right for him to come out of the stone too. I think it was enough that Harry was able to appreciate the courage of Snape through over means later.

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gankomon - Jul 25, 2007 9:28 am (#19 of 54)
Rose, I agree. Snape did what he did for Lily- that was clear when he screamed "For him"? and launched his doe patronus. Snape was Lily's. Permanently and forever. The others- James, Sirius, Lily and Remus- did what they did for Harry and for each other. I felt that it was right that the three true Marauders and Lily formed Harry's final honor guard as he went to meet his death.

But I had a quibble as well. Why, oh why didn't he tell Neville that once the snake died, Voldemort would be mortal and killable??? Now there is no one who knows that the only Horcrux remaining is Nagini! I think Harry kind of dropped the ball on that one, just as Dumbledore did. Colin Creevey's death as particularly sad. Poor little guy...

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Mrs Brisbee - Jul 25, 2007 10:08 am (#20 of 54)
Why, oh why didn't he tell Neville that once the snake died, Voldemort would be mortal and killable??? Now there is no one who knows that the only Horcrux remaining is Nagini! I think Harry kind of dropped the ball on that one, just as Dumbledore did.

Ron and Hermione would know. But I was disappointed as well. I thought, "Finally! Harry is going to put faith in his friends and trust them, and give them the information they'll need!" But he stopped short of that final, crucial piece of information.

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deletedaccount - Jul 25, 2007 10:14 am (#21 of 54)
Did the others actually know that Voldemort had been immortal though? I don't think Neville thought he was immortal.

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Prefect Marcus - Jul 25, 2007 12:34 pm (#22 of 54)
Why, oh why didn't he tell Neville that once the snake died, Voldemort would be mortal and killable??? Now there is no one who knows that the only Horcrux remaining is Nagini! I think Harry kind of dropped the ball on that one, just as Dumbledore did.

(1) Only the trio knew about the Horcruxes.

Spoilers: (2) At the very end, Tom Riddle was alone, surrounded and trapped by hundreds of people determined to destroy him. Those included all of the DA and the OOP that were yet alive; plus many, many people who were powerfully magical in their own right. You had the centaurs there with their arrows, the house elves with their knives and cleavers, and Grawp. Riddle was alone, armed only with (for him) a run-of-the-mill wand. You don't think at least one or two of them weren't going to try to finish him off?

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Chemyst - Jul 25, 2007 3:58 pm (#23 of 54)
"Finally! Harry is going to put faith in his friends and trust them, and give them the information they'll need!" But he stopped short of that final, crucial piece of information.
There was also that time-factor thing. The use and making of a horcrux is still not general knowledge and trying to explain & understand it under pressure would only have been more confusing. The important thing was 'Kill the Snake!'

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Prefect Marcus - Jul 25, 2007 6:10 pm (#24 of 54)
Absolutely, Chemyst. With Harry sacrificing himself to destroy that Horcrux, after the snake was dead, anyone can kill Voldemort.

So instead of spending twenty minutes filling Neville in on Horcrux lore, he got down to brass tacks. "Kill the Snake", indeed. Simple, straight-forward, easy to understand. Everything else would just flow from that.

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mollis - Jul 25, 2007 6:42 pm (#25 of 54)
And he trusted Neville. He had finally learned to trust his friends. He knew that he could tell Neville what needed to be done and that he would take care of the snake if he had the opportunity.

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Madam Pince - Jul 25, 2007 7:19 pm (#26 of 54)
I agree though, and this bothered me reading it -- I still think if I were Harry, I'd have said "Kill the snake; and be sure not to try to do in Voldemort until you've killed the snake first! It's important, Neville! Kill the snake first before anyone tries Voldemort!"

No need for him to go through a whole complicated horcrux explanation. All the DA have been acting like little soldiers obeying orders so far -- no reason to assume that Neville wouldn't continue that trend. ***pictures Neville snapping heels together and saluting crisply "Yes, SIR, Col. Harry sir -- Kill the snake first; will do, sir!"***

The walk through the forest in this chapter puts me very much in mind of C.S. Lewis' The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe, when Aslan is walking to the Stone Table to meet the White Witch, and Susan and Lucy walk beside him and give him courage. In white text in case someone hasn't finished reading: In fact, the whole final wrap-up of the book parallels the Narnia one -- the self-sacrifice of an innocent is "deep magic from before the Dawn of Time" (aka: "Magic the Dark Lord knows not...") and Harry returns just like Aslan did.

Oh, in an interview JKR did (yesterday? today?), she said that this chapter was the one that had her sobbing and sobbing after she wrote it. (Here I was thinking it was because of someone she killed off...) Yet again, how cold-hearted am I -- the chapter that made JKR sob uncontrollably and all I could think was "Could you walk faster, please, and get to the confrontation already!"

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deletedaccount - Jul 25, 2007 8:24 pm (#27 of 54)
If someone were to zap Voldy before the snake, wouldn't he still cease to exist after the snake eventually died?

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Allison R - Jul 25, 2007 8:40 pm (#28 of 54)
Mezuzas, I think he would... but he'd be back to being VaporMort in the meantime, and we all know what kinds of trouble he can get into in that state and what a mess of events that can start!

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Solitaire - Jul 25, 2007 8:54 pm (#29 of 54)
I agree with Marcus's spoiler ... besides, Ron and Hermione are still around, as far as we know, and they know what's got to happen. Once Nagini is dead, they'll know what to do! Besides, there is enough insistence in Harry's voice when he tells Neville to kill that snake ... he means DO IT NOW! Neville isn't stupid. This is the guy who's run the resistance all year in Harry's absence. He'll put 2 & 2 together. I have confidence in Neville. Go, Neville!

Solitaire

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Magic Words - Jul 26, 2007 8:13 am (#30 of 54)
I see the arguments against Snape coming out of the stone, but now that I think about it, how much more poignant would it have been if we'd been shown some--any--interaction between Lily and Snape after their deaths? *adds to list of fan-fiction notes*

Madam Pince, I see I'm not alone in mentally substituting "Deeper Magic from Before the Dawn of Time" every time I see the chapter title "The Flaw in the Plan." They refer to the same concept, don't they? The flaw in the white witch's plan was that she "knew not" the deeper magic. (How many quotes from each series can I cram into one sentence?)

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Madame Pomfrey - Jul 27, 2007 8:51 am (#31 of 54)
This chapter made me cry so much that I had to reread due to blurry words.Harry's walk toward death affected me more than any of the deaths. As for Harry's thoughts on Snape. I feel Harry probably had the utmost respect for Snape after the knowledge he obtained from the pensieve. I also feel Snape probably respected Harry too after all was said and done.I don't know if they could have ever been close though. I don't think their relationship would have moved beyond respect.

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Caius Iulius - Jul 31, 2007 12:58 pm (#32 of 54)
Where has Colin's younger brother gone to? He was probably too young, even to Colin's standards to come along and fight. Yet wasn't the younger brother in the DA?

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I Am Used Vlad - Aug 1, 2007 11:06 am (#33 of 54)
Dennis did manage to be in Hogsmeade even though he was only in his second year.

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Columbine Fairy - Aug 1, 2007 2:38 pm (#34 of 54)
I was surprised DD didn't come out of the stone, but I never expected Snape to. Harry has faced alot of fear before - mainly for the lives of his friends, but that fear always had hope in it. This was completely different, the outcome was certain, and he had time to think about it. To me, he summoned those people that he could draw comfort and courage from - the people he had looked up to and respected in life. Snape never came into that category, and he probably hadn't had time to register his death properly anyway.

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Caius Iulius - Aug 2, 2007 10:59 pm (#35 of 54)
A family member pointed out to me that only Harry's nearest and dearest would come out of the stone, thus his parents, his godfather and his unofficial second godfather Remus Lupin. It sounds logical to me.

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Soul Search - Aug 3, 2007 5:29 am (#36 of 54)
My thought was Lupin appeared, at least in part, because Harry needed some redemption from him. Harry felt guilty for all the deaths and Lupin's death particularly. The conversation they had assured Harry Lupin did not blame him for his death.

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freshwater - Aug 3, 2007 9:56 am (#37 of 54)
Ooohhh...excellent point, Soul Search! Our Harry is all too likely to blame himself for the deaths of his loved ones...given his interaction with Lupin in this scene, that should be less likely to be a burden for Harry. Nice going, Jo.

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Columbine Fairy - Aug 3, 2007 3:17 pm (#38 of 54)
I find it very touching that Harry had just become what Sirius was to him - Godfather to the orphaned son of one of his close friends.

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rambkowalczyk - Aug 10, 2007 8:36 am (#39 of 54)
There were only two instances where I had tears leaking from my face: when I read Cedric's death (I had no idea that anyone was going to die) and this chapter. And I knew that Harry would eventually be ok. For me it was Harry talking with his parents and asking his mother to stay close to him. I tend to break down on impending death scenes. I always cry just thinking of Tom Jones' Green, Green Grass of Home.

I think Snape and Dumbledore weren't in the forest because Harry might have still been angry at them both and that wasn't the frame of mind he needed.

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Phelim Mcintyre - Aug 21, 2007 6:10 am (#40 of 54)
I keep being struck by Harry wanting the fighting to stop and to go home. Then he realises that he is home. That he, Snape, Lupin and Voldemort all found their true home at Hogwarts. I can't help thinking that this was part of his reason for acting as he did after McGonnagel got spat out. That she represented Hogwarts to him and to attack McGonnagel was an attack on all he held dear about the school.

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freshwater - Aug 21, 2007 9:06 am (#41 of 54)
Good point, Phelim, and excellent connection, too. I was quite surprised by our Harry using a cruciatus curse...but, as a teacher particularly, I had to appreciate his gallant defense of McGonagall's honor.

Interesting...the varied group of young men who 'all found their true home at Hogwarts', particularly in view of the choices they made in their lives thereafter.....which leads me to ponder Lupin. I have admired him tremendously for the grace and selflessness with which he has handled his 'furry little problem', otherwise known as a curse and a blight on his life. But he has spent a great deal of his life distancing himself from others, ostensibly to protect them from his "flaws" or handicap....but in doing so he also 'protected' them from his finer characteristics. Sounds a bit like what Harry might have done had he decided that he should tackle the horcruxes alone and abandon Ron and Hermione...and probably not the best idea. Hmmmmm....

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Esther Rose - Aug 21, 2007 9:07 am (#42 of 54)
Phelim, you forgot Dumbledore. I believe Dumbledore also saw Hogwarts as his home.

freshwater, my guess is that even though they were some what estranged they were still the only family they had.

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freshwater - Aug 21, 2007 9:09 am (#43 of 54)
Good point, Esther Rose....and given the awkward relationship between Albus and Aberforth, it's a bit of a puzzle how they ended up living for years so geographically close to one another. Another, hmmmmm.....

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legolas returns - Aug 21, 2007 12:05 pm (#44 of 54)
I wonder if Aberforth went to Hogsmede first to put a little bit of distance between himself and his brother. His brother then became a teacher so they came to be close geographically.

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Luna Logic - Aug 21, 2007 12:20 pm (#45 of 54)
You make me ask to myself, what happens to the Dumbledore's house in Godric's Hollow? Perhaps both Albus and Aberforth deserted it, as soon as they could work somewhere - all bad memories, there ?

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Choices - Aug 21, 2007 4:49 pm (#46 of 54)
That is what makes me think that Dumbledore allowed Lily and James to stay at his house in GH when they went into hiding.

Surely, as an only child, James was left his parents house when they died. I like to think that he and Lily were living there and then moved to Dumbledore's house in GH for safety reasons.

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Joanna Lupin - Aug 22, 2007 2:22 am (#47 of 54)
It doesn't work because Harry was born in GH and Voldemort wouldn't have started hunting down the Potters until after the baby was born, would he?

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freshwater - Aug 22, 2007 4:17 pm (#48 of 54)
Was he born in GH? I thought that they had moved there, from elsewhere obviously, for the express purpose of going into hiding.

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Caput Draconis - Aug 22, 2007 6:33 pm (#49 of 54)
The first time I read this chapter I questioned why Snape was not summoned along with everyone else, I think I was reeling from the last chapter and just desperately wanted Harry to recognise everything Snape had done. Once I had calmed down and read it again I realised it wouldn't have worked. Harry walking to his death is about Harry, not Severus. What he needed was the support of those he had always relied on, or who always lived on in his heart. The last thing he would have wanted was an awkward conversation with Resurrection Snape about how Severus always loved Lily and sacrificed his life to save the world.

I still crave the living conversation they were never able to have, though.

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Joanna Lupin - Aug 23, 2007 7:12 am (#50 of 54)
freshwater - DD tells Harry that the Invisibility Cloak, Ignotus's present, travelled down the generations to his last living descendant born, like him, in Godric's Hollow, to Harry.

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Choices - Aug 23, 2007 8:36 am (#51 of 54)
Harry was born in Godric's Hollow, but I don't think that precludes the possibility it was Dumbledore's house they were living in. Dumbledore heard the prophesy and he knew Lily was pregnant. Dumbledore may have recognized the possibility that Lily's baby was the one spoken of in the prophesy, because James and Lily had defied Voldemort three times, and so had fulfilled part of the prophesy already. Perhaps Dumbledore suggested they move into his house in Godric's Hollow for Lily's safety.

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Joanna Lupin - Aug 23, 2007 9:20 am (#52 of 54)
How about the Longbottoms then? Besides, it seems to me DD only realised Lily's son was in danger after Snape had met him on the hilltop. Snape said: You know what I mean! He thinks it means her son!

How does Snape know it's a boy then? It could be a girl! Or, Lily could have given birth a day later, on the 1st of August! We know the prophecy was made a year before Harry was born, but I see no evidence to assume Voldemort started hunting the parents before the baby was even born.

Also, I see no reason to assume the Potters' house wouldn't be just as safe a hide-out after a Fidelius Charm was placed on it.

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freshwater - Aug 23, 2007 1:21 pm (#53 of 54)
"...to his last living descendent born, like him, in Godric's Hollow..."

Thanks, Joanna...I'd missed that bit.

Choices, your Tara is such a cutie!

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Holly T. - Sep 13, 2007 8:06 am (#54 of 54)
Oh my goodness, don't listen to this chapter on the way to work. Good thing it is ragweed season and red puffy eyes are associated with allergies and not with oh, you must have been crying in the car.

I also have to say that listening to this chapter did not help my anxiety level when my daughter didn't call me. I was a complete mess when I got here.

So, of course, I'm going to listen to "King's Cross" on the way home.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

[Mona]

Kip Carter - Jul 19, 2007 5:54 am
Edited Jul 25, 2007 12:45 am
This thread is to discuss Only Chapter Thirty-Five - King's Cross of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows!


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Madam Pince - Jul 22, 2007 12:22 pm (#1 of 88)
I'm feeling incredibly stupid. Just what exactly is the whimpering baby-thing under the chair? Is it supposed to be the part of Voldemort's soul that was in Harry? That's all I could come up with, but I'm not sure. He has no way to see his reflection to see if his scar is still there, but the picture at the start of the chapter doesn't appear to show the scar. Maybe the baby-thing is supposed to be the scar? The scar which is also part of Voldy's soul? Oh I'm all confused...

So Harry doesn't need his glasses in the "afterlife," but Dumbledore still does? Hmmmm. Interesting.

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Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 22, 2007 1:28 pm (#2 of 88)
Madam Pice - think back to GoF and pre-ressurectio Voldermort.

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Madam Pince - Jul 22, 2007 1:45 pm (#3 of 88)
Yeah, I did, and that's why I reached the conclusion I did, but I still think it's kind of vague. I wish JKR had tightened that up a bit.

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Ann - Jul 22, 2007 5:19 pm (#4 of 88)
I don't think JKR has actually gone with the Scar-as-Horcrux theory. The scar is just the entrance point. But, yes, I think the flayed baby (what an image! Yuck!) is Voldemort's mutilated soul. I'm not clear on whether it's the one that was resurrected and has been in his body since GoF, in other words, the hideous baby-like thing that Wormtail drops into the cauldron. It seems more likely that it's the bit that was in Harry, since Voldemort killed both of them. Or perhaps, since that fragment is essentially destroyed, it isn't represented, and the "baby" is Voldemort himself, pulled into the "station" by the destruction of the Harry Horcrux and the blood he shares with Harry.

I thought the chapter illustration for this one was terrifying. It somehow made me believe she'd really done it.

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freshwater - Jul 22, 2007 8:47 pm (#5 of 88)
I liked very much that Harry had an opportunity to get some answers from Dumbledore.

DD and Harry ignoring the wimpering infant figure was very disturbing for me....I suppose that it represents the 1/7 of Voldemort's soul which, being so ruthlessly and repeatedly pared down from his original soul, is no longer of sufficient size (quality? content?) to be able to be saved. It's hard for me to think that about even a portion of a soul, but if I think of it as comparable to cutting off an arm, and that arm is not sufficient in itself to resurrect and entire body, that makes more sense to me.

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Holly T. - Jul 23, 2007 7:16 am (#6 of 88)
This chapter sort of whacks you on the head with one of those topics that is not to be dicussed on the forum. King's Cross, dying to save others, and coming back from the dead. Hmmm.

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freshwater - Jul 23, 2007 11:56 am (#7 of 88)
So much for those fundamentalists who believe HP is all about demons and witchcraft even though they've never read any of the books....truly their loss.

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deletedaccount - Jul 23, 2007 12:20 pm (#8 of 88)
I think he was just knocked unconscious and was having a near-death experience.

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freshwater - Jul 23, 2007 12:56 pm (#9 of 88)
But if it was just a near-death experience there would be no point in LV's having taken some of Harry's blood when acquiring a new body. That is --part of-- what distiguishes this return from the dead experience from a Traditional resurrection story. **please note: that is "traditional" with a capital "T"**

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Tazzygirl - Jul 23, 2007 1:22 pm (#10 of 88)
Madam P- I was also feeling a little confused as to what the baby thing was. I also took it as that part of Voldy's soul, but it just didn't seem all that clear to me.

For me, I took the whole chapter at first that Harry had completely died (and I was bawling my eyes out), and then took it as Harry was dead, but he had the choice to either continue on to where his parents were, or go back to Hogwarts.

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Prefect Marcus - Jul 23, 2007 3:29 pm (#11 of 88)
I think Rowling is going to leave this chapter a bit of an enigma as in never fully answer the questions. Nevertheless, here is my first blush analysis.

Most quest stories have the hero going on a death trip where they visit the land of the dead and return. This is Harry's.

The piece of Voldemort's soul that was in Harry had to be destroyed, so that is why Voldemort killed Harry. However, since Voldemort "goofed" and had part of Harry's soul in him, Voldemort served as a Horcrux for Harry to allow Harry to return to life to finish the job -- leaving behind that little bit of Voldemort soul.

The baby was that bit of Voldemort's soul that was in Harry. It was now separated from Harry. Since the creation of a Horcrux splits a soul in two, the size of the souls will diminish over time.

First split: 1/2 - 1/2

Second split: 1/2 - 1/4 - 1/4

Third split: 1/2 - 1/4 - 1/8 - 1/8

Fourth split: 1/2 - 1/4 - 1/8 - 1/16 - 1/16

Fifth split: 1/2 - 1/4 - 1/8 - 1/16 - 1/32 - 1/32

Sixth split: 1/2 - 1/4 - 1/8 - 1/16 - 1/32 - 1/64 - 1/64

Seventh split: 1/2 - 1/4 - 1/8 - 1/16 - 1/32 - 1/64 - 1/128 - 1/128

There are several things to note. First, that the first one is the strongest, and they become progressively weak. The first Horcrux was the diary. It put up the most fight. The second the ring. It caused even Dumbledore problems. The third, the locket. It actively challenged Ron, but only verbally. The rest did not fight being destroyed. By the time we got down to the cup, the tiara, and the snake, they succumbed easily to destruction. Their destroyers only had to provide the means of destruction, and they went quietly.

Note that the last two of every split are the same size. This implies that what was in Harry, and what is in Voldemort are essentially the same thing.

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Esther Rose - Jul 23, 2007 3:38 pm (#12 of 88)
Marcus,

Harry was the 6th Horcrux.

Nagini was the 7th Horcrux.

Nagini was not made a Horcrux until GOF.

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Prefect Marcus - Jul 23, 2007 4:49 pm (#13 of 88)
You are correct, Esther. And I knew that. Shows you what sleep deprivation will do.

So what was left of Tom Riddle's soul was even less than what Harry saw in Kings Cross. How truly sad.

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Holly T. - Jul 23, 2007 5:02 pm (#14 of 88)
Ack, math! But that does make sense--I was wondering why it was so much easier to get rid of the cup, for example, Hermione just stabbed it and there you go.

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freshwater - Jul 23, 2007 6:42 pm (#15 of 88)
Your explanation makes a lot of sense, prefect marcus, but do we know that the horcruxes were orginally created in that order?

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Prefect Marcus - Jul 24, 2007 1:06 am (#16 of 88)
Freshwater,

I'm not sure. However, it does fit the known facts and makes sense.

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Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 24, 2007 1:45 am (#17 of 88)
Harry was not a horcrux. Horcruxes contain a piece of soul. According to Dumbledore a piece of soul attached itself to Harry. As such Voldemort was unaware of what had happened. He created the horcruxes, including Nagini. Voldemort oversplit himself by creating a seventh horcrux. His plan was going to be six horcruxes and the seventh piece of soul in himself. That is what he thought had happened when his vapour self went off to Albania.

His ignorance of what had happened explains his kidnapping of Ollivander and why he was unable to defeat Harry even with another wand.

My question is was the invisibility cloak what Voldemort was planning to make into a horcrux?

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Mare - Jul 24, 2007 2:51 am (#18 of 88)
Voldemort "goofed" and had part of Harry's soul in him
No, voldemort was no horcrux for Harry, he had Lily's protection in him; Harrys blood. Remember how Albus told Harry in Kings Cross that his soul was now pure and whole and completely his own. That was before Harry had to go "back" to life.
A piece of soul only comes apart if you do something Horrible, Harry never did that, he always had his own soul in one piece, he just had something else tacked on as well.

My question is was the invisibility cloak what Voldemort was planning to make into a horcrux?
I'm going to guess no, because Voldemort apparently didn't know about the Deathly Hallows, he was only interested in the Elder Wand. So he wouldn't know about the cloak. What he would have made into a horcrux is unknown, we were never told that, I think.
By the time we got down to the cup, the tiara, and the snake, they succumbed easily to destruction.
But the tiara was made before the locket, because it was hidden in the castle when Voldemort returned to ask for a job.

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Ida-ho-Potato - Jul 24, 2007 5:41 am (#19 of 88)
Voldemort Received the Locket before he went to Albania. He was working for Borgin and Burkes right out of school. He got the locket and cup killed the owner, modified the house elf memory and left. It was after he went to Albania that he then went back to Hogwarts seeking job. So the locket and the cup both are before the Tiara. He went to Albania to retrieve the Tiara.

Notice he left the ring at the home of which he found it. He left the locket at the cave which still signified the orphange, the place his mother left him and his mother had owned the locket. The Tiara at Hogwarts. That is where he learned of its existance. The Cup went good in Gringotts. Goes well with the rich old lady. Of the Diary in the end was meant to be found. To bring back the chamber of secrets and as Dumbeldore said, Nagine was the closest that Voldemort ever came to actually caring for something.

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 24, 2007 6:16 am (#20 of 88)
"The scar is just the entrance point." And apparently the exit point, since in Book one, Dumbledore said that scar would be with him forever. It also explains why Dumbledore said he wouldn't remove it, even if he could...

"DD and Harry ignoring the whimpering infant figure was very disturbing for me...." May I ask why, if it were me, I would have ignored it too. After all, it had several choices, chose all evil, you would pity that?

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Esther Rose - Jul 24, 2007 7:02 am (#21 of 88)
Phelim,

According to Dumbledore on Scholastic Page 709 "You were the seventh Horcrux Harry. The Horcrux he never ment to make."

So, yes, Harry was a Horcrux.

While in this passage it says that Harry was the seventh Horcrux he was actually the 6th Horcrux because Nagini was not a Horcrux until GOF. But Harry was a Horcrux none the less.

Unless I am confused and you meant to say that Harry did not have Horcruxes which you would be correct.

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The giant squid - Jul 24, 2007 8:29 am (#22 of 88)
Dumbledore's statement of Harry being the 7th horcrux is about quantity, not chronology. All he's saying is "You are another horcrux, Harry."

JKR never actually mentions which horcruxes were created before the others except for the diary (the very first) and Nagini (the very last). The breakdowns by prefect marcus & Ida-Ho-Potato make sense and are probably right, but really aren't that important to the story.

--Mike

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Marie E. - Jul 24, 2007 11:53 am (#23 of 88)
There has to be a Miracle Max joke in here somewhere. "You are only mostly dead, Harry..."

I was interested to see that Harry was given a choice. He could come back to life or go on. At one point in his life being with his parents would have been very tempting.

I like that Dumbledore actually answers questions now.

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Catherine - Jul 24, 2007 12:03 pm (#24 of 88)
I like that Dumbledore actually answers questions now. --Marie

Well, it was Harry's party, after all.

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Mare - Jul 24, 2007 1:08 pm (#25 of 88)
Allthough I agree that the order of the horcruxes isn't all that important, just in case people want to go and write essays on the subject:
Harry thinks: "He had travelled to that far-flung forest and retrieved the diadem from its hiding place, perhaps as soon as he left Hogwarts, before he even started work at Borgin and Burkes"

So it is possible that he got it after the locket and the cup, but also possible he got it before. I still think before because that sentence above got put in the book.

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Prefect Marcus - Jul 24, 2007 1:15 pm (#26 of 88)
Mare,

Harry thought, "perhaps as soon as he left Hogwarts".

That is a big enough hole to drive a triple decker knight bus through.

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The giant squid - Jul 24, 2007 3:04 pm (#27 of 88)
That, and just because we know when he got the items doesn't mean we know what order he created horcruxes out of them.

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Madam Pince - Jul 24, 2007 3:11 pm (#28 of 88)
Edited Jul 24, 2007 4:54 pm
Talk about holes... so is the definition of "horcrux," really. Slughorn tells us in HBP that you don't just have to rip your soul by committing murder, but you also have to "...encase the torn portion...there is a spell, do not ask me, I don't know!"

This was one of my main objections to the "Harry-is-a-horcrux" theory. If he did have a soul-bit inside him, it had to have been done during the Godric's Hollow incident, and I didn't see how Voldemort could've performed the spell Slughorn mentions when he'd just been blasted into Vapor-mort, and I really didn't believe anyone else came along and did the spell for him, collecting his piece of soul from floating around in the air like a bit of lint or something.

The only other solution for a soul-bit in Harry was that it had to have been done through some accidental magical "backfiring," as indeed Dumbledore tells us it was. So technically is that a "horcrux?" I guess it's being pretty nit-picky to wonder -- Dumbledore (aka JKR) calls it such, so I suppose we have to take it as it's offered...

I keep coming back to Agatha Christie comparisons -- in her book "Death on the Nile," I felt cheated because one main clue was that there was supposedly a bottle of red nail polish in one of the staterooms, and Christie didn't tell us until after the fact that it wasn't really nail polish but rather red ink -- the detective knew but she didn't tell the reader (unusual for her.) I feel a bit like that about this whole "wand-master" issue and also about the "how-to-make-a-horcrux" issue. Just a teensy bit cheated. But not enough to be fussed about. Much.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 24, 2007 6:27 pm (#29 of 88)
My two Knuts on the subject may confuse things a bit more. I always thought that Riddle worked at Bogin and Burkes until he obtained the locket and the cup at which point he disappeared resurfacing shortly after Dumbleedore became headmaster ten years after he made rhe request:

Here are my thoughts graphicall represented

June 1945: Tom Riddle graduates from Hogwarts.
Summer 1945 before September 1: Tom Riddle first applies for the D.A.D.A. position and is refused by Headmaster Dippet.
Summer 1945: Tom Riddle is employed by Caractacus Burke and works there until he finds discovers the Locket and the cup. The Lexicon Timeline places the theft of the Locket and Cup in approximately 1947.

After the theft of the locket and cup Rom disappears on turn up at Hogwarts in 1955 when he applied for the D.A.D.A. Position and is refused by Headmaster Dumbledore.

It seems likely that the period commencing with the murder of Hepzibah Smith and ending with his second application to Hogwarts was spent searching the forests of Albania for Ravenclaw's Diadem because, Riddle had it in his possession when he applied for the D.A.D.A. position a second time because, it was just prior to the second interview that he hid the diadem in the RoR.

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spinowner - Jul 25, 2007 9:23 am (#30 of 88)
To expand on the near-death experience idea... The sharing of blood prevented Harry from dying. It did not bring him back from the dead. I believe it has been established in previous books that that is not possible in the HP universe. I think that this chapter was intended by JKR to be a near-death experience because it is similar to what many people who have had these experiences have reported. What tips it off is when "Dumbledore" says (and I don't have the book handy to make this a verbatim citation), "It's happening in your head, of course!" I think that this experience enabled Harry to clarify his thoughts in a way that he was not able to do while fully conscious.

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gankomon - Jul 25, 2007 9:37 am (#31 of 88)
Well, I am eating much crow, as I was firmly in the Harry-is-not-a-Horcrux camp. However, I find it delicious that Voldemort's use of Harry's blood essentially performed the same service for Harry as Voldemort's Horcruxes perfromed for Voldemort! However, it is interesting that Harry, unlike Voldemort, could choose to go on or go back. I think it is because Harry's ties to life are through his parents' love, not through murder as are Voldemort's.

It took me a while to comprehend the whimpering baby-thing. I found it horrific, and despite Dumbledore's comment that it is beyond help, I felt pity for it, and am surprised that Harry ignored it so easily, considering the compasssion he has repeatedly shown through the series thus far. As a father of a very young child myself, I may have a particular weakness for helpless children, but I still found it sad. I think Prefect Masrcus ha an excellent theory on the splitting of the soul, which explains the "flayed baby" appearance of the piece. But I am still wondering if that was the piece that was in Harry or the one that resided in Voldemort?

And yes, finally Dumbledore tells Harry the truth. All of it. Hurrah!

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vball man - Jul 26, 2007 5:50 am (#32 of 88)
This chapter sort of whacks you on the head with one of those topics that is not to be dicussed on the forum. King's Cross, dying to save others, and coming back from the dead. Hmmm.
b. - Holly T.

Yeah. I hope that we eventually have a forum where we can discuss the Topic-Which-Must-Not-Be-Named. I'll point out that the wrath we are spared from by the Sacrificial death isn't the wrath of the evil one... (important difference)

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Esther Rose - Jul 27, 2007 5:10 am (#33 of 88)
Madam Pince, I think up until Lily's sacrificed life the entire Wizarding World believed that there was only one way to create a Horcrux. The only books and knowledge we see that refer to a Horcrux are old and perhaps at this point (in Harry's generation) way out of date.

Since the combination of creating multiple Horcruxes on Voldemorts part and the blood/life sacrifice on Lily's part had never been done before the Wizarding World never knew this particular route to creating an Horcrux. It had never been done before, so no one knew what the result would be.

Its just like blowing up your aunt's sister-in-law when she insults your mother and father. You could get so angry that she blows up on her own, or I suppose there is a curse or hex that would do the same thing with a wand. In both cases the results are the same its just one is deliberate and the other may be unintentional.

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Ann - Jul 27, 2007 5:17 am (#34 of 88)
I've just written a long post on the next chapter thread explaining why I am now quite sure in my mind that the "flayed baby" is Voldemort himself, his "core soul," and not the soul bit that was in Harry. There is a difference. The bits that are attached to Horcruxes just vanish when their container is destroyed, while Voldemort's "core soul," when his body is destroyed at Godric's Hollow, wanders around formlessly possessing snakes and DADA professors. As Hermione said in an earlier chapter "A Horcrux is the exact opposite of a person" (or words to that effect.

My main reaction to this chapter was to remember an interview with Jo long ago, when the interviewer was discussing religious protests to her books, and asked her if she was a Christian. Her answer was "Yes, I am, which seems to offend the religious right far worse than if I said I thought there was no God. Every time I've been asked if I believe in God, I've said yes, because I do, but no one ever really has gone any more deeply into it than that, and I have to say that does suit me, because if I talk too freely about that I think the intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60, will be able to guess what's coming in the books."

I'm not discussing religion here--I'm just quoting and saying that it is pretty clear that this chapter was "what's coming."

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virginiaelizabeth - Jul 27, 2007 11:03 am (#35 of 88)
But I am still wondering if that was the piece that was in Harry or the one that resided in Voldemort?

OK here's my best attempt, that I posted a few days ago on another thread:

I think what we are seeing in Kings Cross is an imprint of both Harry and Voldemort's souls. Harry's soul is whole and complete, and so his soul imprint is whole and complete. Voldemort's soul has been torn and destroy and is no longer whole, so the imprint we see is just the same, incomplete, thus it shows up as we see it- destroyed and weak. And because they shared blood, Voldemort felt the horcrux inside Harry when it was destroyed. Dumbledore tells us that he doesn't think that Voldemort feels when his Horcruxes are destroyed, because those bits of soul have been detached for too long. Yet there was a blood connection between the soul bit inside of Harry and the one inside of Voldemort, and this connection allowed Voldemort to feel it as it was destroyed, so it affected both of them.

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Magic Words - Jul 27, 2007 11:30 am (#36 of 88)
There's something I hadn't considered, that the blood affects Voldemort's connection to the Horcrux itself.

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haymoni - Jul 29, 2007 10:01 am (#37 of 88)
Hah! I love it! Harry is an Accidental Horcrux!

I will admit that I thought Voldy just said the incantation right after he cast the AK, but I like Dumbledore's explanation of the torn soul-bit floating around with no soul but Harry's to attach itself to - Voldy being Vapormort and all.

Love it!

Edit: This chapter reminded me of the OotP Movie scene with Harry & Sirius in the train station. Except there wasn't a flayed baby under one of the seats!

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freshwater - Jul 29, 2007 8:22 pm (#38 of 88)
TBE, about 20 posts back you asked why I was disturbed by the ingoring of the infant, since it had made only evil choices....at the time I was reading so quickly that I was unsure who or what that infant was...I did not --during my first read-- connect it with a bit of LV's soul.....so, seeing it only as a wounded infant, I was quite dismayed by DD's indifference. Of course, viewing it as a bit of the evil that was Voldemort, my feelings are entirely different....although I think --in our humanity-- we must still pity those who make such evil choices, even while we need not seek to change the natural consequences they suffer due to their choices. What do you think, TBE?

Marie E....loved your reminder of the Miracle Max joke..."only mostly dead"...LOL!

Ann and virginiaelizabeth, you both bring up interesting ideas. Ann, I think the baby must NOT have been LV's "core soul", but the bit of LV soul that had attached to Harry in Godric's Hollow. Yes, after that night in Godric's Hollow, LV's core soul wandered around possessing others....but it could only do that because LV had active horcruxes at that point and his body had been destroyed by the rebounding AK...and perhaps the explosion of the house caused, perhaps, by Lily's sacrifice. When LV AK'd Harry in the forest, he still had active horcruxes which preserved him --core soul still in LV's body-- even though the Elder wand in his hand had rebounded the AK he'd tried to throw at Harry (his body not being destroyed by the AK, just that bit of soul). [[there is just no way to discuss these kinds of things in short sentences, is there? **grin**]] Unless....as virginiaelizabeth suggests, that infant was an imprint of LV's core soul, just as Harry being in King's Cross was an imprint of his soul....maybe.

This is definatley more complex --and more interesting-- than the discussions we struggled through involving time travel in PoA!

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 29, 2007 11:52 pm (#39 of 88)
"....although I think --in our humanity-- we must still pity those who make such evil choices, even while we need not seek to change the natural consequences they suffer due to their choices. What do you think, TBE?"

Me, I have no pity for those who make such evil choices. After all, they did have other choices. Maybe my humanity is not as connected as yours. Again, it is one of those choices.

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Solitaire - Jul 30, 2007 8:29 am (#40 of 88)
The bits that are attached to Horcruxes just vanish when their container is destroyed

Hm ... what if they don't "just vanish"? Even things that vanish go somewhere, don't they? What if the remnants of the soul that has been split apart join back together "on the other side of the veil," or in some other eternal vista--once each of the Horcruxes which contained them has been destroyed? Could not the flayed baby actually be the torn, shredded parts of Voldemort's soul--save the last remnant--which have "reassembled" themselves? It stands to reason they would look deformed and unhealthy.

BTW, was anyone else hoping to find out about DD's scar in this chapter? I mean, weren't they in the perfect place for him to disclose it?

Solitaire

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Magic Words - Jul 30, 2007 3:38 pm (#41 of 88)
Even things that vanish go somewhere, don't they?

They go into nonbeing--which is to say, everything.

Couldn't resist, mate.

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Ann - Jul 31, 2007 5:25 am (#42 of 88)
Ah, Magic Words, you took the words right out of my mouth!

Solitaire, two points. I don't think the soul bits join up on the other side of the Veil, because it takes remorse to rejoin them. (See below). And secondly, the soul bits in the Horcrux don't, apparently, die. They don't pass through the Veil, they simply cease to be anchors that hold the "core soul" to life on earth. According to Hermione (Ch. 6, pp. 104-5 in the American edition) they can't exist outside of their container. They don't actually die--it is the container that dies. In that discussion Harry says that the diary "dies" and Hermione, in talking about Horcruxes, twice uses the word "exist." Dumbledore, in this chapter, doesn't say that the curse killed the soul bit--he agrees with Harry that "it's gone" and says "he destroyed it," not "he killed it."

And besides, if the AK only killed the soul bit in Harry, but didn't kill Harry himself, why does Harry fall? And more importantly, why does Voldemort fall, and revive only when Harry returns? Dumbledore says they are "tethered," tied together by Harry's blood. I think that because of the shared blood that acts rather like a weaker, non-evil, conditional Horcrux (Harry has a choice), Voldemort, too, is pulled into "King's Cross" (Biblical echoes in that name, anyone?) along with Harry. If Harry had chosen to go on, that would presumably have broken the connection, but until then, Voldemort isn't alive either.

And I think Harry has to really die--the container of the Horcrux has to become "non-functional"--for the Horcrux to be destroyed.

Two other clues: the flayed baby looks very like the "baby" that Wormtail puts in the cauldron to revive Voldemort in GoF. (In retrospect, that must have been the solidified soul of Voldemort--and you'd think he'd have noticed when he made a Horcrux of Frank Bryce and tore off another strip.) Also, when Harry advises Voldemort to "try for some remorse," he says "I've seen what you'll be otherwise." That must *refer* to the flayed baby at King's Cross, the form in which Voldemort will spend all eternity if he dies. (Although, actually, I thought he would become a ghost like other wizards and witches who fear death.)

One argument against my conclusion is that Harry does offer Voldemort the possibility of trying to feel some remorse to make his soul whole again. (In that same Ch. 6 discussion, Hermione says that remorse for your evil acts, a healing process so "excruciatingly painful" that it can destroy you, is the only way you can "put yourself back together." Since all of the Horcruxes are destroyed at that point, a physical rejoining of the detached pieces would seem to be impossible, but I would think it would be equally difficult if they were on the other side of the Veil. So I think it's not really putting oneself back together, but more of a re-growing of the lost bits of soul.

(I love this remorse metaphor, by the way, but that may be partly because I predicted it--I argued ages ago that the reason Horcruxes are so terribly evil is that by removing the torn-off soul bit from yourself physically, you have prevented any possibility of healing. Apparently I was wrong, but it is excruciatingly painful.)

You're right, freshwater--it's impossible to write about this without being verbose, or, in my case, extremely verbose. Sorry!

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Solitaire - Jul 31, 2007 7:56 pm (#43 of 88)
Perhaps Harry falls because he is a Horcrux who has been hit by a powerful spell! Heck, the stone cracked in half ... it's lucky Harry didn't crack in half! I think Voldemort falls because the spell has bounced back on him.

I don't think the soul bits join up on the other side of the Veil, because it takes remorse to rejoin them.
It does seem right ... although the flayed baby seems like it could be the soul pieces not properly joined, since they are all ragged and torn. So the "baby"--or whatever it is--is not whole and properly formed. I still want to know where the remnants of soul do go ... I don't like the idea of remnants of Voldemort's soul just floating around in the ozone.

you'd think he'd have noticed when he made a Horcrux of Frank Bryce and tore off another strip
Actually, Voldemort didn't make a Horcrux with Frank Bryce's murder. In the Leaky Cauldron webchat, Jo listed which murders were used to make each of the Horcruxes. Interesting about the regrowing of a soul being painful. Remember how painful it was for Harry to regrow the bones in his arm? I thought about that when I saw Fleur with the Skele-gro.

Solitaire

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Ann - Aug 1, 2007 9:01 am (#44 of 88)
Well, it turns out that the "flayed baby" is definitely Voldemort. From the Webchat, when JRK is asked whether Voldemort became a ghost:

J.K. Rowling: No, he is not a ghost. He is forced to exist in the stunted form we witnessed in King?s Cross.

Incidentally, she has also, it seems to me, confirmed that there were religious overtones in this chapter. When someone asked why Harry went to King's Cross when he died, she answered that there were many reasons, but the first she mentions is "The name works rather well..."

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freshwater - Aug 2, 2007 12:04 pm (#45 of 88)
Ann, I don't think your explanation (post 42) was verbose at all! In fact, it is probably the clearest, most comprehensible explanation of this that I have read! Congratualtions --and thank you-- and take 50 points for your house!

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totyle - Aug 9, 2007 8:55 pm (#46 of 88)
I read this chapter at least 4-5 times. There's one bit I still dont really get it. Why didnt Harry's blood taken by LV in GF lose its protective tethering power (Harry lives=LV lives) when Harry turned 17? Isnt this tied in with Lily's sacrifice and the protective power that gave Harry expiring when he turned 17? I am very befuddled on this point. Am I confusing 2 different things?

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Esther Rose - Aug 10, 2007 6:30 am (#47 of 88)
Totyle, Lily's sacrifice remains in Harry's blood for life. The extra protection Dumbledore gave Harry as long he stayed with his aunt expired on his 17th birthday (or until he no longer called #4 Privet his home.)

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rambkowalczyk - Aug 10, 2007 8:59 am (#48 of 88)
Dumbledore telling Harry that there is nothing he can do for the flayed baby does have a biblical reference.

There is a parable of a rich man and a begger named Lazarus who was ignored by the rich man throughout his life. After death it is Lazarus who is in arms of Abraham and the rich man who is in torment. Lazarus feels sorry for the rich man but is told by Abraham that after death there is this huge abyss that can't be crossed.

This huge abyss that is created is a result of our choices in our life.

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Choices - Aug 16, 2007 6:22 pm (#49 of 88)
"Harry became conscious that he was naked." I am not sure I understand the significance of this...?

With the Resurrection Stone an army of Inferi could be created. Chilling thought.

Harry now knows what Dumbledore would have seen in the Mirror of Erised.

"I have to go back, haven't I?" "That is up to you." "I've got a choice?" "Oh yes." ---------Even at this late date, Harry still has choices to make. That is so in keeping with one of the main themes of these books.

This chapter is really wonderful. I love the exchange between Harry and Dumbledore. I love Dumbledore. What an amazing character he is.

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Chemyst - Aug 17, 2007 5:00 am (#50 of 88)
"Harry became conscious that he was naked." I am not sure I understand the significance of this...?

I fairly sure it is supposed to mean that he is unencumbered by the desires and cares of this mortal/earthly world? but when I read it, my very next thought was "I wonder if JKR did the final edit about the time Daniel Radcliffe was getting all the publicity for making his au naturel Equus debut?"

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

[Mona]

icthestrals - Aug 17, 2007 8:23 am (#51 of 88)
"Explain." I love this. Harry doesn't say, "I don't understand" to Dumbledore like he did in the past.

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freshwater - Aug 17, 2007 5:12 pm (#52 of 88)
Harry naked in 'King's Crossing'....I like Chemyst's explanations --both of them! LOL!-- and I also think that the lack of clothes relates to the choices he now had, without the reference or labeling of 'student' robes or 'muggle' clothing or 'teen' style. His options were now more wide open than ever before.

I love that HP/DD exchange, too, mum. I also love that, before Harry stated what he would do, DD's comment indicated that he knew Harry would return.

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journeymom - Aug 18, 2007 5:16 pm (#53 of 88)
Chemyst, I thought that, too! I don't think that JKR wrote Harry in as naked just because of Daniel Radcliffe's turn on the stage, maybe she got a fiendish laugh out of it.

I liked how the surroundings only came into being as Harry became aware of them.

He was naked as the day he was born. Here he is, in between life and death, and I would imagine his birthday suit is the only appropriate clothing option. Robes? Jeans? Any earthly, man-made clothes would be too evocative.

I loved this scene, too.

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Orion - Aug 19, 2007 9:09 am (#54 of 88)
Yes, but the seven Harrys strip off too. Equus, certainly. The movie is gonna be interesting.

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Choices - Aug 19, 2007 9:28 am (#55 of 88)
I doubt very seriously that the seven Harry's strip down to the buff since Fleur, Hermione and Tonks are among them.

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freshwater - Aug 19, 2007 11:04 pm (#56 of 88)
But, Choices, I think they did. Even the girls would not care about stripping down to change into "Harry" clothes, because the body being seen by everyone else was not their own, but Harry's body. I laughed out loud at that part where Harry was hoping they'd show more concern for his privacy for his own body.

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Luna Logic - Aug 20, 2007 7:45 am (#57 of 88)
Edited by Aug 20, 2007 8:46 am
I was re-reading this chapter very closely, and I found I'm not sure of understanding a passage. it is at the end of the chapter, the page before the last one (p. 578 Bloomsbury)
Harry is speaking : 'If you planned your death with Snape, you meant him to end up with the Elder Wand, didn't you?' 'I admit that was my intention," said Dumbledore, "but it did not work out as I intended, did it?'

I am not sure of he meaning of "you meant him to end up with the Elder Wand".
Does "end up", here, means finish, stop the Elder Wand thing? The Elder Wand power?
Or does "end up" is : do you meant Snape to become the master of the Elder Wand?

There I'm rejoining Mrs Brisbee's questions on the "general discussion" thread which opens this folder. What, exactly, was Dumbledore's plan to "finish" Voldemort?

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Chemyst - Aug 20, 2007 9:05 am (#58 of 88)
Both in the end, but this one first:
Or does "end up" is : do you meant Snape to become the master of the Elder Wand?

"end up" would mean "finish up" or "finish with" ~ Dumbledore's intended plan was that Snape would take custody/ownership of the Elder Wand, but since Severus did not "win" it by defeating Dumbledore, it would become just an ordinary wand.

Like this:
'If you planned your death with Snape, you meant for it to finish with Snape having the Elder Wand, didn't you?' 'I admit that was my intention," said Dumbledore, "but it...'

That is interesting how that works, and I would have missed it if you had not asked. In this situation, Snape having ownership of a wand for which he had not defeated the previous owner would also have ended its power. That is the "twist" of the story that it does both. Under ordinary circumstances, "end up with" would mean only that Snape got possession of the wand. Normally, "end up" in English would not mean an end to the power of the object, only to the transfer of the custody of the object.

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Luna Logic - Aug 20, 2007 11:35 am (#59 of 88)
Great thanks, Chemyst, now I'm copying your message and I will study it tomorrow, and translate it with care!
It is only because I was translating to French the end of chapter 35 (for somebody else) that I saw I couldn't really translate it, without some understanding of the whole plot and plan! Good luck to all foreign translators I hope they go to HP Forums...

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freshwater - Aug 21, 2007 12:18 am (#60 of 88)
Aaahhhh....Thank you to both of you...I hadn't caught that at all, and I think, Chemyst, that that explanation of DD's intent is very important. Previously I had thought that DD simply wanted Snape to "end up with" the wand because he trusted Snape...but it would be entirely too risky...what if some evil person then defeated Snape and "won" the wand? Then the problem of thw Elder Wand would not be solved at all, as it is with Chemyst's explanation.

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Orion - Aug 21, 2007 12:35 am (#61 of 88)
There is something unpleasantly patriarchal about Dumbledore's intent. "This has been my supremely powerful wand, it's power shall die with me." As if he was the last one who could be trusted with it. As if he begrudged everybody the thing after his death. Yes, I understand the rational motivation: Such a terribly dangerous object mustn't exist. But the patriarchal undercurrent is there, or isnt it?

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Mrs Brisbee - Aug 21, 2007 2:44 am (#62 of 88)
Orion, I also see Dumbledore as paternalistic. He does tend to treat everyone like children who aren't quite old enough to be trusted to make the big decisions on their own.

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freshwater - Aug 21, 2007 9:15 am (#63 of 88)
I don't disagree with either of you, Orion and Mrs. B.....but I wonder if that patriarchical undercurrent or paternalistic demeanor is almost inevitable --given human nature-- in someone who had such tremendous responsibility.

Responsibility.....interesting that DD avoided confronting Grindelwald for 5 years --despite the ongoing murder and devastation-- and yet has been conscientiously working alone and behind the scene for years and years to determine how LV must be dispatched. Rather a different approach than his first, to the demands of 'the greater good'. I wonder what lesson(s) he would say he learned from delaying his battle with Grindelwald?

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Choices - Aug 21, 2007 11:09 am (#64 of 88)
I agree, Freswhwater. It is the tremendous responsibility, and I also think it is his advanced age.

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Mrs Brisbee - Aug 21, 2007 4:16 pm (#65 of 88)
I wonder if Voldemort operating in Dumbledore's home country of Great Britain and Grindelwald operating in Europe had an impact on how and when Dumbledore reacted to their respective rises to power.

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Choices - Aug 21, 2007 4:52 pm (#66 of 88)
Sorry....Freshwater. Don't know how that extra "w" got in there. LOL Time to cut my fingernails again.

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freshwater - Aug 22, 2007 4:24 pm (#67 of 88)
LOL! No problem, mum...with my poor eyesight and bifocals and dratted increased frequency of misreading things, I'd never noticed!

I have found a fanfic that utilizes the 'train station as a transition site' theme (a la "King's Cross" chapter) for other HP characters. The ideas of time, redemption, meeting up with loved ones who have gone on, and the choices we do and do not have at that point, are quite creative and very well done. I know better than to post a link to a fanfic here, due to the risk of also linking on to other less-than-family-friendly material, but I will gladly reply with the link for anyone who is interested and e-mails me (click on my avatar for my e-mail address).

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tandaradei - Aug 23, 2007 12:22 pm (#68 of 88)
I like Prefect Marcus's idea too, even the math; but see it nonetheless a bit differently.

Instead of the soul being in quantifiable parts, I kind of think of the soul as being more or less accurately defined: most defined when all together in a body, anchoring it to life; but less defined as it finds itself in more diffuse situations (bodies). The math would work both ways.

If either is the case, I'm thinking the essence of the soul, its sense of identity and such ... would remain; but its ability to self-actualize in its full glory would deteriorate. Perhaps this could be seen as the lessening of a soul's beauty? JKR definitely has Voldemort becoming uglier, the more he fractures his soul.

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freshwater - Aug 23, 2007 1:31 pm (#69 of 88)
I think those are excellent point, tarndaradei, about the essence of a soul and its deteriorating potential to self-actualize...after all, that seems to be what happened to LV himself: after deliberately and repeated making choices that damaged and injured his soul, he ultimately became unable to seek redemption through remorse when it was offered. Although this may appear that he then had no free will, it must be understood that he his li//chose to spend his life// exercising his free will in such a manner as to bring himself to this point....it is no one's fault but his own that he made himself into someone incapable of repenting.

During a group discussion, someone asked,"But what if LV had shown remorse?" and the answer given was, "Then he wouldn't have /been/ Voldemort."

I truly hate to think that it is possible for a human being come to a point --spiritually/emotionally/whatever-- where they are unable to repent and seek redemption...but the more I learn of evil and atrocities in the world, the more believable it seems. Very sad.

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tandaradei - Aug 28, 2007 4:22 pm (#70 of 88)
I sometimes find myself stunned by Jo's imagery.

I assume Voldemort's soul-bit was that "abandoned" red, wrinkly baby moving and crying furtively beneath a seat at King's Cross -- with Harry's soul represented by King's Cross -- a well-lit and open soul, airy and welcoming to friends.

And then there's Harry's attitude towards that soul-bit. Throughout septology Harry always had difficulty ignoring Voldemort's soul-bit within; in fact, if it hadn't been for Voldemort's own efforts at occlumency, Harry would probably have suffered every thought of Voldemort's until near the end, when Harry finally conquered that bit through his intense concern for others. Voldemort's soul-bit in Harry represented to me just a "bit of life," and not a very good one at that; yet Harry felt responsible for such, even in that chapter; see how he even goes over to it, to maybe touch the creature and try to figure out how to help it; and he basically has to be told that there is no help for it, by Dumbledore.

According to a recent chat, IMO Jo tells us that Voldemort "abandoned" his soul seven times, making in essence eight horcruxes. Harry rather "expanded" his, as we can see from the King's Cross station.

Sounds like a morality tale to me, even tho Jo claimed otherwise.

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James Greenfield - Sep 6, 2007 1:38 am (#71 of 88)
Orion, Mrs. B, freshwater, and Choices:

Yes, Dumbledore can be both patronizing and paternalistic. but at 115, with many years of great responsibility for Hogwarts and the wider Wizarding World, I think he is entitled to assume that he _does_ know better than others in many situations. He has said (somewhere), "It is only a guess, but my guesses are usually right."

I find myself having to _not_ tell younger people what to do for their own good, just because I think I know more about it than they do. At 71, I find it hard to resist, sometimes.

Note that he leaves it up to Harry to decide to go back, and try to finish off Voldemort.

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Choices - Sep 6, 2007 2:16 pm (#72 of 88)
Wow, finally someone older than me on this forum. LOL

I totally agree with you, James. I don't remember what I said previously that caused you to include me in your list, but I agree that Dumbledore at his age has every right, even obligation, to share his great wisdom and experience with his students and with the wizarding public. He has knowledge that can help them remain safe and resist Voldemort. I think, like Harry, Dumbledore has a "saving people" thing - he wants to see the wizarding world at peace and his great knowledge can help achieve that goal.

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dunstvangeet - Sep 7, 2007 1:10 pm (#73 of 88)
Just wondering what you think of this theory of the chapter.

The chapter was obviously in Harry's mind. This was made blatently clear when Dumbledore answers the question with, "In your mind, but what's the difference."

Dumbledore throughout the books has always been the one to come in at the end and explain everything. This happens in Books 1, 2, 4, and 5. It happens twice in Book 7 (King's Cross chapter, and then in the final chapter after the battle). Book 6 is also mostly about Dumbledore explaining certain things to Harry.

So, my question is whether or not Dumbledore was actually there, or if it was Harry's mind manifesting a part of him into Dumbledore, to explain things that Harry already could figure out himself. There is nothing really revealed in that chapter that Harry couldn't have figured out on his own.

So, was it actually Dumbledore brought back in such a way like what Lupin, James Potter, and Sirius Black were in the previous chapter, or was it Harry's mind manifesting Dumbledore to explain things that he already knew, or could have figured out on his own.

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Choices - Sep 7, 2007 3:10 pm (#74 of 88)
Hmmmm.....six of one and half a dozen of the other. Since none of us know for sure, I think it is a "take you pick" sort of thing. Whatever works for you....the outcome is the same.

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Chemyst - Sep 7, 2007 6:14 pm (#75 of 88)
So, was it actually Dumbledore brought back in such a way like what Lupin, James Potter, and Sirius Black were in the previous chapter, or was it Harry's mind manifesting Dumbledore to explain things that he already knew, or could have figured out on his own. - dunstvangeet

I don't think it was exactly like Lupin, James and Sirius because they were called into Harry's very earthly presence by the Stone Hallow. We have a canon description of those bodies with enough mass that Harry could hear them snap small twigs under the weight of their footsteps on the forest floor, and they are compared to Diary Tom as "memory made nearly solid."

JKR used the word "limbo" when questioned about Harry's King's Cross in an interview. Since she is Presbyterian and Limbo is more a doctrine of the Roman Catholic church (and Zoroastrians) and hardly shows up in Protestantism, I am going to argue that her use of the word "limbo" would have been either (1) a literary approach like the description in Dante's Divine Comedy, or (2) a more contemporary definition meaning "a status where nothing can be done until something else beyond your control happens." Of the two, Dante's limbo works better. Being in limbo as a position or status where you are waiting for something to happen doesn't really match Harry's state of mind; he seemed to be more in control. In classical/literary usage, "limbo" is a neutral vestibule where souls of the dead are able to communicate and speak with each other. If this is the kind of limbo she meant, then Dumbledore's soul could have been there without his body. The body Harry saw was in his mind, but Dumbldore's soul could have been speaking through it.

So I think Dumbledore's spirit/soul was there but his body was not.

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Orion - Sep 8, 2007 12:05 am (#76 of 88)
"If this is the kind of limbo she meant, then Dumbledore's soul could have been there without his body. The body Harry saw was in his mind, but Dumbldore's soul could have been speaking through it." - if Dumbledore can speak through a painting, he can also speak to Harry's mind in person. So he's not a figment of Harry's imagination. It's true that Harry could have figured out pretty much of what is being said of his own. But it would be the most boring interpretation of this scene if Harry was, indeed, alone in his mind. It's often being said in this forum: "It's magic!" to accept everything which can't be fully explained, so it works fine for me to assume that Dumbledore talks to Harry himself, reaching out from the dead. (The talking paintings are never explained, after all.)

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freshwater - Sep 8, 2007 9:20 am (#77 of 88)
James Greenfield wrote: Yes, Dumbledore can be both patronizing and paternalistic...."

I don't disagree with your point, James, but I'd like to clarify that, in my earlier post, I referred to DD as "partriarchical (not patronizing) and paternalistic". While both of those terms may, in the 21st century, seem to hold negative connotations, I do not see either term as necessarily negative. In their place, and applied with discretion, both approaches or demeanors may be both necessary and appropriate. I felt that the struggles Harry faced in DH with the various allegations of DD's earlier beliefs and behavior were a particularly valuable part of the story. That information led me to admire DD even more than I had previously, and to appreciate him much more fully as a man struggling in the human condition like the rest of us, but succeeding so much more frequently than many of us.

Chemyst, I like your explanation for DD's spirit being present in Harry's King's Cross (in his mind). We've been accepting for several books now that Harry can "see" bits of LV's emotions and activities, even conversations, and that this is heralded by physical pain in his scar. It's interesting to me that so many readers have had such difficulty sorting out and accepting the DD/Harry conversation in this chapter....do you think it is because of the close resemblance to religious themes?

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NFla Barbara - Sep 8, 2007 10:04 am (#78 of 88)
I think a lot of how we interpret this chapter will have to do with our personal beliefs about what happens (or not) after death, and I think it was written to allow for differences in interpretation.

A really minor point: Dumbledore throughout the books has always been the one to come in at the end and explain everything. Absolutely, even in book 3 (the only one not mentioned earlier), where he explains to Harry that James was still alive in him...an explanation that might have some relevance to what was happening in King's Cross as well. "You think the dead we loved ever truly leave us? You think that we don't recall them more clearly than ever in times of great trouble?"

If getting AK-d for the second time in your life doesn't qualify as "great trouble," I don't know what does!

"Your father is alive in you, Harry, and shows himself most plainly when you have need of him. How else could you produce that particular Patronus? Prongs rode again last night."

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legolas returns - Sep 8, 2007 12:40 pm (#79 of 88)
The one thing that I thought about when reading this chapter is the film "Flatliners". I have a sketchy recollection of this film as it came out seventeen years ago. I seem to remember that the lead characters were medical students and they did experiments where they stopped and restarted each others hearts. They experienced there own version of hell-They were hounded by people that they had bullied as children/mistreated in the past. I assumed that Harrys had a more benign experience because his motives were for riding the world of evil.

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kingdolohov - Sep 24, 2007 6:09 pm (#80 of 88)
Harry says to Dumbledore, "You never killed if you could avoid it!"

I wasn't exactly sure what this meant. I don't think it refers to Ariana and the possibility Albus had been the one to kill her, because they hadn't talked about that yet.

So which is this phrase the same as: "You only killed when you couldn't avoid it" or "You never killed because you didn't need to"? The way Harry's statement is phrased makes me think the former, but I don't know of any specific evidence we (and thus Harry) have that he actually killed anyone.

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Chemyst - Sep 26, 2007 7:44 am (#81 of 88)
Harry says to Dumbledore, "You never killed if you could avoid it!"
When I first read that, I thought it was that Harry had now heard other's testimony including Aberforth's version of the facts and was allowing that there were war casualties as a result of DD's decisions, but that DD had tried to avoid them. DD's delay in disarming Grindelwald probably caused some to die. He gave assignments to Order members that turned fatal during the first war. Yet DD's over-arcing policy had been to protect as much as possible.

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Choices - Sep 26, 2007 11:20 am (#82 of 88)
I had always thought that Dumbledore had killed Grindalwald, but Grindalwald ended up in prison, so Dumbledore evidently was able to avoid killing him.

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Luna Logic - Sep 27, 2007 12:17 am (#83 of 88)
On the 2005 interview at the Leaky Cauldron, J. Rowling seemed to think Grindelwald was dead in 1945, too!

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Choices - Sep 27, 2007 8:17 am (#84 of 88)
I'm sure that is where I got the idea that Grindelwald was dead, Luna. Then in DH, we find out he was in prison after Dumbledore vanquished him. So, Dumbledore didn't kill him, but perhaps he died in prison or later and that is what JKR was referring to.

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PeskyPixie - Sep 27, 2007 8:54 am (#85 of 88)
Or JKR decided it would be cool to have the moment between Grindelwald and Voldemort to demonstrate how even a Dark wizard could feel remorse, and to illustrate that Dumbledore avoided killing whenever possible. As she hadn't killed off Grindelwald in canon she might've brought him into DH in a guest appearance (in addition to the flashbacks) for any of these reasons ... and many more.

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freshwater - Sep 29, 2007 5:56 am (#86 of 88)
I always liked --and wondered about-- the use of "vanquish(ed)" in both the prophecy about Harry/LV and when describing DD's victory over Grindelwald. "Kill(ed)" is so much clearer, if that had been, or were to be, the case....but "vanquish" leaves open the possibility of defeat without killing. Such a tease, JKR is....


*waves to Choices** Hi, mum!

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Choices - Sep 29, 2007 9:44 am (#87 of 88)
**Hi freshwater - waves to dear forum daughter**

You are so right - vanquished is so ....questionable? We do not know for sure how she actually means that. Killed, beat, put down, overcame, sent to prison, etc. Does Jo do this on purpose just to make us crazy? Well, it's working! LOL

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PeskyPixie - Sep 29, 2007 12:25 pm (#88 of 88)
It also gives her room for creativity.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

[Mona]

Kip Carter - Jul 20, 2007 10:06 pm
Edited Jul 25, 2007 12:45 am
This thread is to discuss Only Chapter Thirty-Six - The Flaw in the Plan of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows!


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Cerpin Taxt - Jul 21, 2007 4:24 pm (#1 of 152)
Other then the obvious things all I want to do is say GO NEVILLE!

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Holly T. - Jul 21, 2007 4:50 pm (#2 of 152)
Neville is a a true Gryffindor!

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hellocello3200 - Jul 21, 2007 5:59 pm (#3 of 152)
I always thought Neville's putting them over the edge in house points in the first book foreshadowed a large role in bringing down Voldemort, but this i think makes him the coolest character in terms of taking on the bad guys next to harry.

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Jenniffler - Jul 21, 2007 8:46 pm (#4 of 152)
Two words--CAPSLOCK!Molly

Neville the Leader. A million pionts to Neville!

The Elder Wand is a tricky thing, with Draco not Snape as the true master, then, of course, Harry.I was surprised, very surprised.

AK vs. Expelliarmus. That disarming spell is something else. Go Harry

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Finn BV - Jul 21, 2007 9:29 pm (#5 of 152)
Oh man, Molly yelling at Bella was another of my yelling out "Yay" (this was perhaps the loudest one of them all) to nobody moments. Yay!

How ironic (or fitting, depending on how you look at it) that Voldemort died in essentially the same way he would have 17 years ago, just minus the Horcruxes to back him up.

I always thought Neville's putting them over the edge in house points in the first book foreshadowed a large role in bringing down Voldemort --hellocello

Funny, I just heard that theory the other day -- but I didn't and still don't buy it, because I felt it would mean Neville would upstage Harry. It was always clear Neville would have a part to play, but I feel that relating it to the points of PS is wrong because it would mean Neville would put them over the top of the tie created by Harry.

Along that vein, though, I felt that after reading the book, Book 1 was quite closely tied to this book (Ollivander, Neville, Griphook, Voldemort killing), and then got to thinking that 2 and 6 were very much linked, as were 3 and 5, and thus going to the idea that 4 is most pivotal.

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Muggle Doctor - Jul 22, 2007 3:38 am (#6 of 152)
Molly Weasley.

Oh My Flippin' God.

Not just Capslock!Molly, but Combat!Molly too! I tell you, my heart soared when she leaped into the fray to attack Bellatrix. I almost cried for joy when she won.

I never, ever saw her as a fighter on the level of someone like Bellatrix. Okay, I know she's in the Order, but somehow she always seems to take a back seat in Order activities, and I never imagined her as being capable of this. True, Bellatrix was dangerously overconfident when facing her, and seemed to concentrate more on taunts than on fighting (a Black family trait, it seems), but she was also the last Death Eater standing bar Voldemort himself, and you have to accord her a lot of respect for her capabilities on this basis.

I was immensely happy to see Slughorn not only return with reinforcements (I wish Charlie Weasley had brought dragons with him!) but step forward to duel with Voldemort at the end.

I was very pleased to see Hannah Abbott back. After her mother's death, she had every right to get up and leave with the rest of the evacuees, but no: she was DA, and she stayed. Curious that Susan Bones didn't get a mention. Perhaps she did get up and leave, and after all the people she'd lost in her family (she must have been close to Aunt Amelia, to be told about Harry's trial), who can blame her?

Neville: "I'll join you when Hell freezes over. Dumbledore's Army!" It's not that many people who have the guts to tell Voldemort to rack off. Remember what he was like through most of the series? Yeah, he had the guts in book 1 to stand up to Harry, Ron and Hermione (though he might not have, if they could have told him where they were going), but everyone knows how continually he was terrorized by Snape throughout at least the first five books, and his grandmother for eleven years before that.

And then he comes through the final battle and helps nail Greyback. I can see why some fanfic authors and HP theorists want to make Neville a hero on at least the same level as Harry, and possibly even higher.

I'll post more as I reread and take it all in, and respond to others' points, but my second last bit of praise has to go to Narcissa Malfoy, who - even if she was doing it for selfish reasons - lied to Voldemort about Harry's death.

My last and greatest praise goes to all the good guys apart from Harry, who - after everything Voldemort had shown and told them and all the anguish they had felt - went on fighting to the end even when they thought Harry was gone. (Of course if he had died, Voldemort would have been the wand's true owner and invulnerable in combat, but that's another matter.)

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Good Evans - Jul 22, 2007 4:59 am (#7 of 152)
I never, ever saw her as a fighter on the level of someone like Bellatrix. Okay, I know she's in the Order, but somehow she always seems to take a back seat in Order activities, and I never imagined her as being capable of this.- muggle doctor

What a mother will do for her child - one gone, two maimed, NO MORE!!! it was perfect!

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Mare - Jul 22, 2007 5:13 am (#8 of 152)
Sabretooth Tiger Molly

Muggle Doctors post reminds me of the fact that before he stood up to Voldemort, Neville has been leading the rebbelion against Headmaster Snape for an entire year. I wonder what his boggart would turn into now...

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Potteraholic - Jul 22, 2007 6:03 am (#9 of 152)
Good Evans,

Chills ran over me as I read your post, "What a mother will do for her child..." So I had to post. I'm not even a mom, but I thought of my nephew and niece when I read, "NOT MY DAUGHTER YOU B____!" [ I know JKR used the full word, but I'm still new to posting and I don't want to be scolded for my use of language. ]

Mare, other images to add to Sabretooth Tiger Molly: Mama Bear Molly and Mama Lion Molly.

In another post from an earlier chapter, someone wrote something about being disappointed (I'm paraphrasing here) when the good guys started using the unforgiveable curses. I don't know if the poster felt the same way when Molly AK'd Bellatrix, but Molly had no choice. She did the only thing that could have been done to Bella. Bella would never have changed; there was no hope of reforming her.

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azi - Jul 22, 2007 6:13 am (#10 of 152)
I've definitely said I was disappointed somewhere! I just checked the book, and it doesn't say Molly used the AK, just a 'curse'. So it *could* be different curse. Assuming it's an AK, I do feel differently here, because it's death, not torture. For some reason I always see torture as worse than death, because the person has to live on and remember it.

Also, Molly was fighting, not standing in a room while harsh words were exchanged. Stupefy or Petrificus Totallus would have sufficed in Harry's case, but he chose to use Crucio instead. It wasn't necessarily a kill/torture or be killed/tortured situation.

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Ms Hagrid - Jul 22, 2007 7:47 am (#11 of 152)
Parents often get a bad rap in fantasy novels, but they sure don't in this one! Lily, Narcissa, Molly, and every other parent of a Hogwarts student who shows up in this chapter....

Speaking as the parent of a 17 year old - thank you, Jo!

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hellocello3200 - Jul 22, 2007 8:09 am (#12 of 152)
Finn, I don't think Neville upstaged Harry to begin with in the first book. Harry was the quidditch star and he had faced quirrel-voldemort. But Neville's bravery in both cases made the final out come possible.

I was glad Molly finally got some fighting in. I always was bothered by just how traditional of a mother she was. I don't have anything against stay at home moms, but I just felt that she was only ever portrayed in a nuturing, nagging, cooking food sorta way.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 22, 2007 9:28 am (#13 of 152)
Molly I always viewed as formidable witch just as I viewed Augusta and Andromeda.

I tend to think that if Bellatrix had killed Nymphadora and Remus it would have been Andromeda who would have dealt Bellatrix's death blow.

I think the prospect of Bellatrix killing Ginny sent molly into a frenzy coming on the heels of Fred's death, the deaths of Fabian and Gideon, and the close calls suffered by Arthur, Bill, Percy, George, and Ron drove her into a Nemesis like fury.

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mysweetdar - Jul 22, 2007 9:34 am (#14 of 152)
Oh, Yeah!!!!! Go Molly!!!!! Atta Girl!!!!! I also Shouted YAY, to nobody....hee, hee!! She had to do Bella in...The miserable hag couldn't be handled any other way.... I knew Molly would suffer great losses....She had herself, her hubby, and all seven kids, plus Harry, in harms way....Lioness Molly ROARED, at the prospect of losing more....man!!! And Leader Neville really rocks!!!! I cheered again!!!that Jo can write!!!

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Weeny Owl - Jul 22, 2007 9:51 am (#15 of 152)
I thought it was interesting that the Malfoys ran. They both seemed concerned only for Draco, and I've long thought that regardless of how movie Lucius is portrayed, that he really does love his son.

Narcissa not giving Harry away because she cared more for Draco made me dislike her a bit less.

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Kevin Corbett - Jul 22, 2007 10:45 am (#16 of 152)
You know, this is probably going to sound strange, but last night as I lay meditating on the book, one of the prominent thoughts in my mind was that Slughorn, happy as he, like everyone, must be finally to be rid of Voldemort, was probably in an ecstasy that not even Voldy's death could have matched when he walked out onto the battlefield later that day or that evening and found it strewn with the Acromantula corpses Grawp and the other Giants must have taken out. He must have had a swimming pool filled with oak-matured mead within a week, unless the price of venom plummeted because of over-abundance. But I doubt old Sluggy would have let that happen.

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essie125 - Jul 22, 2007 12:24 pm (#17 of 152)
Molly Weasley killing Bellatrix, made no sense to me, whatsoever. Nor did Molly using the B- word. It sounded just as horrible to me as Voldemort sounds to Ron and I;m not aversed to swearing at all.

It should have been Neville, for revenging what she did to his parents, but we do not even see a confrontation between the two of them.

This and many other things, give me the feeling that Jo rushed to finish this book. It just went to fast. personally, I feel she could have taken another three months and write an extra 200 pages.

No it definitely is not my favourite book.

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Weeny Owl - Jul 22, 2007 12:31 pm (#18 of 152)
I never thought Neville would be the one to take Bella out.

I believe that one of the things the whole "Deathly Hallows" explanation was trying to teach ("teach" for lack of a better term) is that revenge isn't what it's all about. Harry was willing to die when he went into the Forbidden Forest. He didn't go there hoping to get revenge for his parents' deaths or anyone else's... he went in to face his own death for the greater good. If Neville had killed Bella out of revenge, it might have started him down the wrong path. Molly didn't kill Bella out of revenge... she was protecting someone she loved.

Molly has quite a few reasons for fighting, and when her only daughter is being threatened, she rises to the occasion.

Neville proved himself more than adequately in his confrontation with Voldemort, and the fact that he had been running a rebellion all year.

Molly has lost brothers, had one son disfigured, had another killed, and Ginny being attacked was the final straw, although she was already in the thick of things.

I liked the way that part played out.

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Michael Franz - Jul 22, 2007 2:12 pm (#19 of 152)
Does this mean that Molly Weasley will be played by Sigourney Weaver?

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Solitaire - Jul 22, 2007 2:19 pm (#20 of 152)
Hey, Weeny! LTNS. Like Essie, I really had my heart set on Neville being the one to AK Bella. It just seemed like poetic justice. But Harry had charged Neville to be sure and kill Nagini, and Neville has always trusted Harry ... so he made his first order of business to do what Harry had asked. When he ran up with GG's sword and killed her, my heart was in my throat. I can forgive Jo for letting Molly take out Bella ... she did an amazing job! I think every loss over the years welled up in Molly, and she let it fly on Bella, who more than deserved what she got. And Neville still got to shine!

Solitaire

PS Actually, Molly has had 2 sons disfigured ... Bill and George.

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Mare - Jul 22, 2007 2:29 pm (#21 of 152)
I keep wondering if Molly used AK, it seems out of character (unlike, I think, her attacking Bella with a passion). I was wondering, since the spell hit Bellatrix directly at her heart, if it couldn't have been a stunning spell.

I mean, if you stun somebody's heart, couldn't it be possible to kill that person too? Take out the heart (even temporarily) and a person dies, certainly Bella who was already tired, wounded, tortured before, slightly (?) unstable etc.

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Weeny Owl - Jul 22, 2007 2:33 pm (#22 of 152)
:::waving to Solitaire:::

Woopsie... two sons. For some reason, I keep forgetting George is missing an ear. I think it's because that sounds like something he'd do for laughs.

I don't know that Molly used an Avada Kedavra, but it's possible, I suppose. A Stunning Spell of some sort might work if it hit the right place.

I just liked seeing Molly as a warrior rather than the worried, fussy, crying woman she'd been so much. She finally got to let out her emotions in defense of her daughter.

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Madam Pince - Jul 22, 2007 2:43 pm (#23 of 152)
I think you've hit it exactly, Weeny Owl. Although I had thought that it would probably be Neville who took out Bella, or maybe even Harry because of Sirius, I think this way is much, much better, for the exact reason you state. War should not be about revenge, it should be about protection if it has to be at all. JKR is good -- she is very good!

Molly's "NOT MY DAUGHTER, YOU B____!" has got to be one of the best "Jump-Up-And-Yell-YESSS!!!-Out-Loud" moments in the entire series. I did all of that, and then immediately burst into tears. (The mom in me, I suppose, but most unlike me regardless...) GO MOLLY! Woo-hoo! Poetic justice that that nasty B went the same way as Sirius.

How did Gryffindor's sword end up back in the Sorting Hat? Last we saw it, I thought Griphook still had it and had re-joined the other goblins at Gringotts?

I remember somebody posting in the "Things I want to see happen" Thread (I think...) that they hoped Harry called Voldemort "Tom" in the final battle. So cool to see it happen! Very reminiscent of Dumbledore in the MoM -- all calm, cool, and collected.

I am still mightily confused, though. How did Harry know about Draco and the Elder Wand? I don't think I get it myself, and I've read this chapter about three times now. Is the crucial difference that it's the "disarming charm," rather than the "killing curse," that counts in who a wand chooses? How did Harry know this with such confidence? Back in chapter 24, Ollivander didn't appear to me to have much certainty in how the whole thing works.

It seems to be like this, right? -- Dumbledore had the Elder Wand as his wand all throughout the series. In HBP, on top of the tower, Draco did the Disarming Charm which sent DD's wand (Elder Wand) sailing across the top of the ramparts. (At this point is where I guess the Elder Wand recognized Draco as its new master?) Draco is totally unaware of this, and still keeps his same old regular wand, which he keeps in his possession until this book in the Malfoy Manor chapter where Harry physically pulls it out of Draco's hand, without using the Disarming Charm. But the one Harry pulls away is not the Elder Wand, it's Draco's regular wand. The Elder Wand has been buried with Dumbledore's body, and then Voldy violated the tomb and stole it. So by stealing the one wand of Draco's, Harry then becomes master of both wands of Draco's -- the regular one and also the Elder one? This is confusing to me. Please someone correct me if I'm messed up here.

I was very pleased with Narcissa, although I had thought she was dead. Also quite glad that Harry got his real wand back.

Edit: Mare, in OotP, McGonnagal got four stunners to the heart, according to Madam Pomfrey, and she was surprised that Minerva lived through it. But live she did. So I don't know what that means, but for what it's worth... Bella is a lot younger than Minerva, but it's true that she'd been weakened in battle already, too.

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Weeny Owl - Jul 22, 2007 3:05 pm (#24 of 152)
From what I understood, Madam Pince, it wasn't necessarily who possessed the Elder Wand, but that the owner had been defeated.

Draco defeated Dumbledore. Harry defeated Draco. The wand chooses the wizard, so the wand had chosen Dumbledore, then Draco, then Harry. Having physical possession of the Elder Wand had nothing to do with who it would obey... it obeyed the victor regardless of who was holding it.

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The giant squid - Jul 22, 2007 3:43 pm (#25 of 152)
IMHO, Neville didn't have to kill Bellatrix. He had already "avenged" them by stepping up and becoming a great leader and by standing up to Voldemort himself. To go from that to a face-off between him & Bella would have been a step backward to me.

--Mike

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Ann - Jul 22, 2007 6:12 pm (#26 of 152)
I, too, liked the motherhood theme in this one. Narcissa lying for Harry because he's able to reassure her that her son is safe, and Molly going after Bella. I've noticed that, except at the DoM, JKR seems to prefer to have women fight women and men fight men. Perhaps she felt that to have Neville fight Bella would impinge on his chivalry. Or perhaps Neville thought that. In any case, the idea of domestic goddess Molly Weasley deciding that an attack on Ginny is the last straw and going for Bella's throat seemed to make perfect sense. She's not a mild mannered woman, Molly (see her in CoS and GoF). Her sons would never have underestimated her in the way that Bella did. And I'm quite certain that she used the AK.

As for the Elder wand, someone pointed out in a non-Lexicon discussion I read, that it clearly "belonged" to Dumbledore. But how did he defeat Grindelwald, if Grindelwald had it? Because Grindelwald stole it. He didn't win it by right of conquest. Draco got ownership (though not possession) of it by disarming DD, and Harry became its new master when he took Draco's wand, disarming him, too. I wonder whether Harry's taking of Draco's wand was simultaneous with Voldemort's taking the wand from Dumbledore's tomb. I think it must have been, since there is a shower of sparks at that moment, as the wand recognizes its new master.

Very clever. Not entirely certain how Harry works all this out, though. I mean, he's had rather a lot to think about in the last few hours, hasn't he?

And I love what Harry decides to do about the Hallows. He is, indeed, a better man than Dumbledore. Almost too good to live, but luckily not quite.

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Chemyst - Jul 22, 2007 6:50 pm (#27 of 152)
I have a new favorite book.

What happened to Snape's portrait in the headmaster's office?
When DD died, his portrait was there immediately; that is what made me think he was really dead. Now what? ?'Snape lives' theories?

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hellocello3200 - Jul 22, 2007 7:21 pm (#28 of 152)
I was waiting for a bit of commentary by Snape and Phineas' potraits, but it never came...

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Solitaire - Jul 22, 2007 9:01 pm (#29 of 152)
How did Gryffindor's sword end up back in the Sorting Hat? Last we saw it, I thought Griphook still had it and had re-joined the other goblins at Gringotts? Madam Pince, I wondered that exact thing ... but I figured it probably had something to do with the enchantments GG must have placed on the sword. Remember that Voldy shook the Sorting Hat before he put it on Neville--probably remembering that Harry had pulled the sword out once before, in the Chamber of Secrets. Isn't it just poetic justice that the only other person to whom the prophecy could have referred was the one to put an end to Nagini? Go, Neville!

The concern about whether Molly used an AK or something else surprises me. This was a war, and they were in hand-to-hand, fight-to-the-death combat. I remember what Remus said to Harry early in the book--these guys meant business.

I love what Harry decides to do about the Hallows. Actually, I was rather hoping Harry would use the Elder Wand to give George a new ear. Since it was able to restore Harry's wand, I am betting it would have worked on the ear ... although perhaps George will get an ear version of Moody's eye. What do you think?

I, too, was wondering about Snape's portrait. Could it be that he was not considered the rightful Headmaster because of how he came into the position ... so his portrait will not appear? Just a thought ...

Solitaire

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freshwater - Jul 22, 2007 9:10 pm (#30 of 152)
Seeing Neville come into his own as a leader was very satisfying. And even more satisfying was seeing his Gran recognize and appreciate him for who he had become (back in c. 31).

And seeing Harry take control of his face-off with Voldemort was also very satisfying....he was calm, polite (a la Dumbledore) and persuasive. Hermione may be the brains of the group when it comes to facts and details, but Harry consistently demonstrates not only fast thinking in a crisis, but the ability to understand the implicaitons of the facts...what they mean as well as what they don't mean...as well as the ability to see connections among seemingly disparate issues.

As for the sword in the Sorting Hat: it seems that a true Gryffindor is able to pull that out of the hat, no matter what the goblins think about it! Ha! :-D

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nthdavid - Jul 22, 2007 11:26 pm (#31 of 152)
What Harry is saying about the wand recognizing him as the 'true owner' is a bit more subtle in the re-read.

Draco defeated the Elder Wand using his wand, but he never touched the Elder Wand and so was never recognized as the true owner. Harry had taken Draco's wand which recognized him as it's owner. Harry was right to pose the question about whether the Elder Wand would recognize him as the owner through combat with the wand that previously defeated it.

LV had both Ollivander and Gregorovitch and tortured them for information but never asked the right questions. Harry did ask Ollivander the right questions, as well as Dumbledore.

So apparently when LV attacked, the Elder Wand found itself attacking the wand that defeated it but not by it's true owner, and so rebounded the spell to serve the new owner.

Interesting that Lupin tried to tell Harry not to use the disarming spell when in fact it is the most powerful spell of all.

Also interesting that this is the only spell we see Snape teaching Harry. (He probably taught more in the DADA class in year 6 and his potions book taught him more.)

As for the sword. GG must have put a spell on it. In the Prince's Tale, chapter 33, DD says that the sword must be taken under conditions of need and valor. In COS he also said to Harry and Ron that help could always be found by asking for it. Neville must have asked for help, and it was done under conditions of need and valor.

I guess Harry will just have to take it back to the goblins - he promised.

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Mare - Jul 23, 2007 5:48 am (#32 of 152)
I wonder whether Harry's taking of Draco's wand was simultaneous with Voldemort's taking the wand from Dumbledore's tomb. I think it must have been, since there is a shower of sparks at that moment, as the wand recognizes its new master

No, Harry sees Voldemort take the wand after he questioned Olivander at Shell cottage, he takes Draco's wand quite some time before that in Malfoy Manor.
The sentence about the sparkling wand ready to serve a new master and not a new owner is interesting. Did the wand react to Voldemort, or to the part of Harry that was somehow also present and watching?

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Magic Words - Jul 23, 2007 6:15 am (#33 of 152)
I am Confused. It does not make me happy.

Why did Voldemort get knocked out when he tried to kill Harry? Why did the AK rebound and kill him the second time (inside Hogwarts) but not the first time (in the forest)?

If Disarming someone gives you mastery of their wand, shouldn't most of the DA have swapped with each other by now? And I mean, how many times has Harry been Disarmed in the series?

Assuming that works out somehow, the entire outcome of the war against Voldemort now depends on Draco Malfoy having been closest by when Harry was escaping and needed a wand?

Why does Harry say Voldemort's spells no longer work on the Hogwartsians? It would have been cool if they didn't, but if that's the case, why was Harry running along casting shield charms in front of everyone Voldemort targeted?

And how come Harry is apparently now immune to the Cruciatus?

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Holly T. - Jul 23, 2007 7:23 am (#34 of 152)
Molly and Neville--true Gryffindors!

As a mom, let me just say that Molly stepping in and getting Bellatrix was great--what mom doesn't want to protect her kids? Likewise Narcissa, lying about Harry, because she loves Draco. And Narcissa has certainly never been nice to Harry.

I think George is somehow going to modify the Extendable Ears and make him a new ear of some kind.

I loved the portraits in the headmaster's office applauding for Harry.

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nthdavid - Jul 23, 2007 9:38 am (#35 of 152)
Harry was immune to LV's cruciatic curse. Neville was petrified by LV, but was able to break free from it almost immediately. The book also says that LV was blasting right and left and then finally blasted the 3 professors - but nobody was dying. Harry wasn't able to stop all of LV's spells with a shield but still he tried. Probably wouldn't have mattered...

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Ida-ho-Potato - Jul 23, 2007 9:58 am (#36 of 152)
Here are some of my views. I have few answers for Magic Words.

1. (Why did Voldemort get knocked out when he tried to kill Harry? Why did the AK rebound and kill him the second time (inside Hogwarts) but not the first time (in the forest)?) Because he was sharing Harry's blood and Harry had a part of Voldemort soul in him. Voldemort was killing a part of himself and did not know it. It was Harry blood in Voldemort that allowed Harry to come back to life. If you notice he did not wake until Harry woke.

2. (If Disarming someone gives you mastery of their wand, shouldn't most of the DA have swapped with each other by now? And I mean, how many times has Harry been Disarmed in the series?) That was diffent. Harry and the DA was practicing. They were not disarming to permanetly disarm. They never intended to harm the other. This was just about learning the skill not using it to cause harm.

Also, Voldemort still underestimated the Sorting Hat. He seemed to think he had control over the hat. The Hat is smart enough to let him think it. It may have looked like Neville was engulfed in flames but he really wasn't. As far as Harry having to return to sword to Griphook the Goblin. He does not have to. Remember, Griphook did receive the sword from harry in the bowls of Gringotts. So Harry had already made good on his word even if it was unintentional. Griphook, was wrong about the Goblin story. Because, The sword left him for another Gryffindor. Which is where its true loyalty and allegiance lays. Because only a True Gryffendor could call upon the sword and have it come like that.

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Solitaire - Jul 23, 2007 10:44 am (#37 of 152)
Didn't Harry's willingness to walk into death in the Forest provide protection for the others? I thought I understood that to be so ... but maybe I need to reread that part.

About wand ownership ... I thought the whole Master of the Wand thing was just pertinent to the Elder wand, and Harry became the true Master of it because he had disarmed Draco, who became the true Master after disarming Dumbledore. Even though the wand Harry took from Draco was not the Elder wand, he had disarmed its Master (Draco), and the Elder wand apparently knew this. Maybe.

Voldemort could never have removed the sword from the Sorting Hat. He was not a true Gryffindor ... he was a coward who feared death and thought only of himself.

Solitaire

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Phoenix - Jul 23, 2007 10:58 am (#38 of 152)
Why does Harry say Voldemort's spells no longer work on the Hogwartsians? It would have been cool if they didn't, but if that's the case, why was Harry running along casting shield charms in front of everyone Voldemort targeted? -Magic Words

I think because Harry used the same magic as Lily did - he willingly sacraficed himself (he believed he was) to save others from dying at Hogwarts; thus they had the same protection Lily gave to Harry that caused the AK curse to rebound upon Moldemort. (Correct me, someone, if I've misinterpreted!).

I, too, loved Molly!! And I loved seeing Voldemort rattled by Harry!

My confusion lies in the blood connection (perhaps this belongs in the prior chapter). His blood in Voldemort acted like a horcrux tethering him to life?

Edit: Solitaire, that's the take I have on the the wands as well.

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freshwater - Jul 23, 2007 12:13 pm (#39 of 152)
The bit about mastery of the Elder Wand is confusing....I think the bottom line is that wands have more sentience than we've expected from a bit of wood. It seems that a wand can, at the very least, recognize the most appropriate wizard/witch to whom it should be matched when first bought...that's why we've had the info from early on that another's wand will never work quite as well for you as your own. But, apparently, when you overcome another witch/wizard in actual battle, their wand then becomes ameniable to working for you, and --equally important here-- never working against you, even when held by it's orginal owner. Actual physical possession of the wand is not necessary...as neither Draco nor Harry ever touched the Elder wand before LV tried to AK Harry for the last time.

Why did the AK work on Harry from the Elder wand when used in the forest? Well, we could say that Harry didn't really die...that the wand just killed the bit of LV's soul that was residing in him...but then how did Harry end up in "King's Cross" talking to DD? Perhaps it was not true death, but an interaction during his unconsciousness.....or maybe the clue is in H's and DD's final comments "Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean it is not real?" (ch. 35 p. 753, US edition.2

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Tazzygirl - Jul 23, 2007 12:59 pm (#40 of 152)
I yelled "Go Molly!" when I saw her heading to Bellatrix. LOL.

I didn't really understand, but did the "good guys" get all of the Death Eaters captured?

I thought the reason why Voldy's spells didn't hurt any of the Hogwartians anymore was because the wand was never rightfully his, and like he said- the wand didn't work to its full potential when he used it.

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Prefect Marcus - Jul 23, 2007 1:40 pm (#41 of 152)
What a completely satisfying end to series! The next chapter is hardly necessary.

Yes, Warrior Molly was great to see. Unlike many of you, I did foresee that it was going to be either her or Hermione taking her out. The strongest good female taking out the strongest bad female.

I did not foresee Neville coming into his own as he did. Totally satisfying. I got a great chuckle out of his Gran.

I especially liked Luna at the end when she discerned that Harry was wanting some peace and quiet.

How very appropriate that the very first dueling spell taught to Harry was the one that finished off Voldemort.

I was so happy to see the "redemption" of the Malfoys. Yes, they are still three nasty pieces of work, but they had what Voldemort didn't have or could ever understand, and that family love played a pivotal role in his ultimate defeat.

I always had a soft place in my heart for Narcissa. I am so glad it turned out to be justified, as opposed to my great disappointment in Pansy. Well, one cannot be right all the time.

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Geber - Jul 23, 2007 3:02 pm (#42 of 152)
I think that when Harry called Tom Riddle by his birth name, just like Dumbledore, it put us on notice that as an adult, Harry will have a role similar to Dumbledore. JKR's interviews suggest he won't be headmaster, a professor, nor Minister of Magic, but he could be Chief Warlock of the Wizengamot.

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Esther Rose - Jul 23, 2007 3:12 pm (#43 of 152)
I tried explaining the wand issue in "The Elder Wand" thread.

On the night Dumbledore died Draco disarmed Dumbledore's wand via Expillarimus. However, Draco never "claimed" (ie. touched) the Elder wand. So, the only way the Elder wand would know it's true master is by whom ever owned Draco's wand since it was the wand that disarmed Dumbledore and no other hand had touched the Elder wand.

By Harry Stealing Draco's wand in the Malfoy Manor he obtained the Hawthorn wand that disarmed Dumbledore. And since Draco never touched the Elder wand, the Elder wand recognized only the owner of the Hawthorn wand (Harry at this point) as its master. So both the owner of the Hawthorn wand and the Elder wand was transfered from Draco to Harry in the Malfoy Manor. Had Harry returned the Hawthorn wand to Draco at any point during the "war" before he touched the Elder wand, then the Elder Wand would have once again recognized Draco as it's master.

Once Harry (the owner of the Hawthorn wand) touched (claimed) the Elder Wand at the end of Voldemort's life, the Elder Wand then recognized a wizard (Harry) instead of just the "owner of the Hawthorn wand" as it's master. At this point, Harry could have returned the Hawthorn wand to Draco while still remaining the master of the Elder wand.

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Phoenix - Jul 23, 2007 3:37 pm (#44 of 152)
I thought the reason why Voldy's spells didn't hurt any of the Hogwartians anymore was because the wand was never rightfully his, and like he said- the wand didn't work to its full potential when he used it. - Tazzygirl

That's true as well, but on page 738, Scholastic, American Ed., it says:

"You won't be killing anyone else tonight," said Harry as they circled, and stared into each other's eyes, green into red. "You won't be able to kill any of them ever again. Don't you get it? I was ready to die to stop you from hurting these people--

"But you did not!"

"--I meant to, and that's what did it. I've done what my mother did. They're protected from you. Haven't you noticed how none of the spells you put on them are binding? You can't torture them. You can't touch them. You don't learn from your mistakes, Riddle, do you?"

That's where I took the Lily-like protection Harry provided. (sorry, I can't bold and italicize at the same time...)

I guess we are just left to assume the DE's were rounded up. I would have liked to have seen it.

I'm thrilled for the Malfoys too! JKR's work is all about choices, but sometimes until people experience things firsthand, they don't fully understand or see the choice. I love how JKR plays out the redemption themes!

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Cerpin Taxt - Jul 23, 2007 4:41 pm (#45 of 152)
I am also moved by the trust they all have in Harry. And how trust plays in the books as Lupin said

"No, I think you're like James," said Lupin, "who would have regarded it as the height of dishonor to mistrust his friends." (pg. 81, American Edition)

and how Neville risking life and limb trusted Harry even though Harry did not explain anything.

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Holly T. - Jul 23, 2007 5:05 pm (#46 of 152)
"I know things you don't know, Tom Riddle." I loved it. Go Harry!

Although, typing it out later, apart from the emotion-filled state of reading the book, is making me think of the Princess Bride. "I know something you don't know."

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freshwater - Jul 23, 2007 6:48 pm (#47 of 152)
Great point, Holly T. I also liked that, despite JKR's reverence for education all through the series, it turns out that the most valuable information in about love and trust and relationships. Harry had to learn new spells or master new skills to survive in the Tri-Wizard Tournament, but, despite all our fears, he has always had inside of him all that he needed to defeat ultimate evil....he just had to choose how to use it. Excellent message for us all.

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Magic Words - Jul 23, 2007 7:32 pm (#48 of 152)
Esther Rose, is that about needing to touch the Elder wand your theory, or is it explained or implied in the text? If so, where?

Several people misinterpreted my question. I completely understand how Harry "dying" for everyone else would theoretically protect them from Voldemort. What I don't understand is why, if you look at the battle, it doesn't work that way. Voldemort puts a Body Bind on Neville. He breaks out of it, which I admit seems hopeful. But then Harry spends quite a while casting shield charms in front of Voldemort's targets, so he's clearly concerned that if Voldemort manages to AK someone, the AK will kill the target instead of rebounding on Voldemort (which is what totally should have happened--Ginny becoming the Girl Who Lived, tee hee). Then when Bellatrix dies, the three Order members dueling Voldemort at the time are physically thrown backward by some kind of explosion of Voldemort's rage. Harry says Voldemort can't touch them, but he clearly can.

And none of this explains why Harry himself is protected from Voldemort's Crucio. He didn't die for himself.

About the shared blood, I guess I'm looking for a mechanism by which it could have these particular effects, instead of just saying "It worked because they shared blood." That's like saying "Voldemort didn't die because he made these things called Horcruxes that kept him alive," without giving any hint that a Horcrux works by preserving a piece of soul. It's a reason but not an explanation. So the blood--apparently Harry can't die while Voldemort lives. Because... Lily's sacrifice needs to be present in a living being in order to work? (And it doesn't count for anything that Harry's alive before he's AK'd, so technically the sacrifice would still be protecting him at the instant the AK hit?) Then Voldemort is knocked out because... it's not the Horcrux in Harry, because he wasn't knocked out when his other Horcruxes were destroyed, so it must be the blood again.

OH! Okay, theory! Because the protection was in Harry's blood before Voldemort reincarnated, it went into his making, so he'll die if it disappears. And it would disappear if Harry were killed. So when Harry was almost killed, Voldemort almost died. And Harry didn't die entirely because... Voldemort was still alive because of his last Horcrux, and as long as Voldemort was alive the protection kept Harry alive? No, that doesn't work. Okay, as long as Voldemort was alive the protection could keep Harry alive because... someone with the protection can?t kill someone else who has it? Possibly?

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Kevin Corbett - Jul 23, 2007 8:30 pm (#49 of 152)
And none of this explains why Harry himself is protected from Voldemort's Crucio. He didn't die for himself.

I think that was the Elder Wand. It wasn't working to well for LV in the first place because the wand never recognized him as its master...and also, it wouldn't go against its master, namely Harry.

I was going to try and give my thoughts on why Harry didn't die...but I've realized I'm also quite confused now.

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Solitaire - Jul 23, 2007 10:19 pm (#50 of 152)
When Voldemort AK'd Harry in the forest, he killed the remnant of himself that resided within Harry rather than Harry himself. There was still Nagini, the seventh Horcrux, which was created because Voldemort never realized Harry was a Horcrux. Once Neville took care of her, all of the anchors were gone. All that was left was Voldemort's shell of a body and the last ragged, damaged remnant of soul that resided within it.

When Voldemort tried to use the Elder Wand against its rightful master, it backfired on him, once again, and he died. Of course, I also believe that Snape's sacrifice helped ... for even though he did not love Harry, he died to protect both Harry and Draco. Well, that's how I understand it ...

Solitaire

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[Mona]

Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 24, 2007 1:48 am (#51 of 152)
Definition of a horcrux - a container of a piece of soul. Dumbledore says that a piece of soul attached itself to Harry. Probably through the scar. Was Harry a horcrux? No, but he had a piece of Voldemort attached to him, like misstletoe on an oak tree.

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 24, 2007 5:53 am (#52 of 152)
The Elder wand seems to be another of Voldy's miscalculations. I believed that because Snape actually killed Dumbledore, the the wand refused to see Voldy as the rightful owner, thus Voldy killed Snape. What I found interesting, that believing this, Voldy did not use the wand to kill Snape. In truth he only used the wand to move the sphere that encompassed Nagini to Snape and hold it there. What killed Snape was Voldy's one word order, "Kill"

Even though Voldy believed that Snape must die because he thought that by Snape killing Dumbledore, that Snape was the true owner of the wand. Thus, in Voldy's mind removing Snape from the equation, the wand would preform for him. Another needless death caused by Voldy...

Edit: Methinks Voldy overlooked the fact that that Draco actually disarmed Dumbledore, and just ran with the fact that Snape was the one who killed him?

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Muggle Doctor - Jul 24, 2007 6:45 am (#53 of 152)
The Elder Wand transfers its allegiance to the person who defeats its previous owner, and other wands can do the same in terms of matching themselves to the new claimant. Thus Draco's wand, which Harry took from him in combat (albeit physical fighting), was a better match to Harry than that Blackthorn piece of rubbish he was given without taking it.

Likewise, Dumbledore beat Grindelwald somehow - maybe Grindelwald did not actually use the Elder Wand in the fight. Who cares? Draco beat Dumbledore by magically disarming him, and so the EW transferred its loyalties to him. When Harry took Draco's wand, he defeated the owner of the Elder Wand and became its new master.

And the Elder Wand grants victory to its master in a fight. REGARDLESS, it would appear, of who holds it. The text describes it flying through the air towards "the master it would not kill".

It's fascinating because if Snape HAD been the true master of the Elder Wand, then the NEXT True Master would have been Nagini. Because Nagini is a living thing in herself, and it was she who killed Snape, by biting him.

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 24, 2007 6:51 am (#54 of 152)
Ok the wand's loyalties, not who physically won and processed the wand in combat. Now, I see, through clear as mud waters...

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Magic Words - Jul 24, 2007 6:58 am (#55 of 152)
On the other hand, Voldemort had to use Nagini to kill Snape. If he'd tried to kill Snape himself, and his assumptions were correct, the wand would have backfired that much earlier.

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Phoenix - Jul 24, 2007 7:17 am (#56 of 152)

Magic Words, sorry I didn't answer your question properly. I went back and re-read, and I think your theory is right on the money! It certainly is a bit confusing, but perhaps this quote will help:

"He took your blood and rebuilt his living body with it! Your blood in his veins, Harry, Lily's protection inside both of you! He tethered you to life while he lives!" (Dumbledore)

I believe the next question is why didn't it work the same as at Godric's Hollow. This is just my speculation, but I think Solitaire's answer about the elder wand applies at this point - the wand could not kill it's master, but the curse was able to kill the soul bit and was strong enough to knock Harry unconcious in a near-death state. And this is what rebounded upon Voldemort - a curse only strong enough to knock him unconscious. I don't believe the 7th horcrux actually came into play here, because the horcrux did not save Voldemort's body at Godric's Hollow - it just kept the remnant of his soul tethered to the earth so he could not 'go on.' -(I think this works.)

But it gets murkier from here. The shield charms Harry put up came from his own need to protect people. I'm not sure they were necessary. And I'm not sure Harry fully understood everything until he was face to face with Voldemort - until after he actually saw that Voldemort's curses were having little effect and were wearing off quickly. I think between that and the wand not truly belonging to Voldemort. Also, it's notable that the DE's were dropping like flies, whereas they were killing prior to Harry's 'death-like' experience. The sacrafice must have taken hold. Voldemort was still able to knock people off their feet, though, in his rage. Magic can be performed without a wand, especially when emotions are out of control.

Anyways, this is my best take on it. I think this will be analyzed and debated for months and months to come. And hopefully, JKR herself will shed some more light on the subject now that the series is done. It is confusing, to say the least!

edit: I don't know that the spell would have backfired the way it did with Harry, as Snape was not it's master. Voldemort may well have thought that though.

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Esther Rose - Jul 24, 2007 7:31 am (#57 of 152)
Magic Words: It was a very strong assumption between Harry's speech, Ollivander's explaination, and Dumbledore's explaination.

Harry's speech reveals that Draco never touched the Elder Wand.

Ollivander confirms that because Harry took Draco's wand by force, Harry was then the owner of the Hawthorn wand.

Dumbledore explained (slight stretch) that "wands" do recognize its enemy.

Well my assumption is that because the Elder Wand was not touched by Draco, "Flesh Memory" of its master was never placed into the wand and so the only way for the Elder Wand to know it's true master is by recognizing the master of the Hawthorn Wand.

What is happening when Voldemort tries to throw curses and Harry is blocking them is that the Elder wand is in Obedience to the Hawthorn wand. In otherwords, if the Hawthorn wand intercepts the curse the Elder wand quite easily gives up.

As far as why Harry didn't die. Because as long as Lily's blood was still alive (In Voldemort) then Harry was still alive. Also there were one plus one part of one soul within Harry. The AK curse had done it's job. It had to kill something so it killed the soul bit within Harry. Harry, not the soul bit within Harry was the master of the Elder wand so the Elder wand did what it could do. Kinda goes back to GOF "Kill the Spare" bit, doesn't it?

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Magic Words - Jul 24, 2007 7:57 am (#58 of 152)
Phoenix, I'm not even sure what my theory was anymore. What you said could be key, though. The curse did rebound on Voldemort, but it had already been weakened by its contact with Harry. Or the fact that it was cast by someone with his blood? I wonder now what would have happened if Voldemort had attacked Harry with his yew wand and Harry hadn't defended himself with the holly. That would let us take the Elder out of the equation and separate its effects from those of the blood. Would the curse still have rebounded, or would it have failed to kill Harry and stopped there?

Esther Rose, that connection to "flesh memory" is a good one.

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Solitaire - Jul 24, 2007 9:48 am (#59 of 152)
Definition of a horcrux - a container of a piece of soul. Dumbledore says that a piece of soul attached itself to Harry. Probably through the scar. Was Harry a horcrux? No, but he had a piece of Voldemort attached to him, like misstletoe on an oak tree.

I thought Dumbledore said Harry was a Horcrux. As to the piece of Voldemort's soul ... I think it went into Harry at the point of the scar. When something is attached to someone or something, it is connected on the outside, "like mistletoe on an oak tree." This bit of Voldemort definitely seems to be inside Harry ... in effect, making him a "container" for it.

Solitaire

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 24, 2007 10:00 am (#60 of 152)
"NOT MY DAUGHTER YOU BITCH"...OUT OF MY WAY!, Get back, get back, she's mine!...

Wonders when Die will weigh in on this one?

Edit: Sorry, couldn't resist...

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Prefect Marcus - Jul 24, 2007 12:44 pm (#61 of 152)
Surprisingly, the most poignant moment for me in this whole chapter was when Narcissa came over to test for life in Harry's body. She did it in a most gentle, careful manner. Rowling makes a point in telling us how soft and gentle her probing was. The only time she gave Harry any discomfort was when she heard that Draco was still alive. Her involantary reaction is perfectly understandable, IMO.

Then later where we find Lucius and Narcissa searching high and low for Draco. They took no thought whatsoever for their own safety. All they wanted was to find their son.

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gankomon - Jul 24, 2007 12:47 pm (#62 of 152)
nthdavid,

Nice theorizing on the Gryffindor sword. However, I must beg to differ with on Harry's need to return the sword to the goblins. Harry kept his word- he did give the sword back, though Griphook really never gave him a chance to do otherwise. However, Neville pulled the sword out of the hat, despite the goblins. The sword is back in wizard possession, but through no act of Harry's. Thus, he is under no obligation to return the sword a second time. He kept his word the first time- no need to do it again. If the goblins want the sword, they will need to renegotiate, but I suspect that Godric Gryffindor's enchantments will overcome whatever the goblins do to try to keep it our of wizard possession.

Personally, I agree more with the wizard ideal of possession than that of the goblins. Once an item has been paid for, it should remain with the actual owner, not the maker. However, I would agree that the wizards and the other races need to do some serious rethinking of their respective positions following the events of Deathly Hallows.

PS: My apologies- this probably belonged in a different thread.

Regards,

gankomon

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Tazzygirl - Jul 24, 2007 3:13 pm (#63 of 152)
Phoenix: quoted from the book: "I've done what my mother did. They're protected from you. Haven't you noticed how none of the spells you put on them are binding? You can't torture them. You can't touch them. You don't learn from your mistakes, Riddle, do you?"

Thanks Phoenix! I completely forgot about that part!

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Madam Pince - Jul 24, 2007 5:43 pm (#64 of 152)
For what it's worth, I took the whole thing about why Voldy's curses didn't seem to be affecting anyone as a combination of the two effects -- 1) Harry's I-choose-to-die sacrifice protecting them like Lily's protected him, and 2) the Elder Wand wasn't operating at peak efficiency for Voldemort, and also it wouldn't "Crucio" Harry, its rightful master. I would add to this also maybe a bit of a third possibility -- Voldemort is down to not a whole lot of soul left. He's got... what did Marcus calculate? something like 1/270th of a soul or something? (maths...) He's probably pretty weakened, and maybe he can't cast spells like he did when he had all his soul parts.

I think this is why he appeared "knocked out" at the beginning of the chapter, too. He was weakened by having had almost all parts of his soul destroyed already, and then he fires an AK at Harry which (unbeknownst to him) actually destroys yet another soul part of his own. It would be like punching himself in the nose (if he had one...*snort!*) Ask me again tomorrow, though, and I'll probably say that I think he "died" with that AK, along with Harry, because I keep changing my mind on that point!

...he had a piece of Voldemort attached to him, like mistletoe on an oak tree.

Phelim, so should Harry be using anti-nargle shampoo? Oh, I slay myself...

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Chemyst - Jul 24, 2007 6:15 pm (#65 of 152)
anti-nargle shampoo —

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Magic Words - Jul 24, 2007 8:20 pm (#66 of 152)
Dumbledore is careful to tell Harry in HBP that Voldemort's powers and mental capabilities remain as great as they ever were despite the diminishing of his soul, so I don't think this can be the reason he was knocked out or failed to harm people with spells.

I'd be much happier if someone could point to a specific incident in which Voldemort failed to harm somebody with a spell during the battle.

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Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 25, 2007 2:13 am (#67 of 152)
Dumbledore speaks of the part of Voldemort's soul attaching itself to Harry - not being placed inside. He then speaks of the sould part being inside Harry like a parasite. Like tapeworm or mistletoe the soul of Voldemort feeds off Harry. In a horcrux the soul piece was placed there on purpose, even in Nagini, with some form of control over it.

On another level Peeves song. "Voldie's gone mouldy." As I coined Voldemort Mouldy Voldy I would like to believe that I helped inspire these words.

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Esther Rose - Jul 25, 2007 5:22 am (#68 of 152)
But Phelim, Dumbledore specifically says that Harry was the 7th Horcrux Voldemort did not intend to make according to his quote in Scholastic Page 709. So I am still confused by your explanation.

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Potteraholic - Jul 25, 2007 9:28 am (#69 of 152)
Prefect Marcus: "I was so happy to see the "redemption" of the Malfoys. Yes, they are still three nasty pieces of work, but they had what Voldemort didn't have or could ever understand, and that family love played a pivotal role in his ultimate defeat."

I completely agree. Thinking about the Malfoys as a family 'unit' got me thinking about the other DEs. Did any of them have a family, family defined here as 2 parents and a child(ren)? I think not. I know Bellatrix had been married, but had no children. The Carrows were siblings, but not married with children. Crabbe's and Goyle's fathers were DEs, but we never hear about their mothers or families.

The Malfoy's had a family bond that was strong and it was this bond that helped them make the choices they made in the end. I'm not saying they were brave and noble, but at least, by the end of the book, they weren't enthralled by Voldemort any longer.

The Malfoys are the the only DEs, of any consequence or importance to Voldemort, who have a strong family bond, which Voldemort did not take into consideration at the end, when he sent Narcissa to check whether Harry was dead or not. Had he chosen any other DE, Harry's plight would have been completely different.

Thank goodness Voldemort made stupid (for him, and lucky for Harry) decisions at these crucial moments near the end of the book!

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 25, 2007 10:27 am (#70 of 152)
...it's all about choices, eh?

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spinowner - Jul 25, 2007 11:41 am (#71 of 152)
The final duel in which Expelliarmus defeats Avada Kedavra (Again! Tom Riddle never learns!) makes me think of a Rock/Paper/Scissors contest in which Harry knew ahead of time that Riddle would do rock. He simply does paper and the duel is won!

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legolas returns - Jul 25, 2007 1:10 pm (#72 of 152)
I thought that this last chapter was brilliant

Molly-I can totally understand Mollys reaction to Bellatrix. You go Molly! I am sure after having so many sons she would have been desperate for a daughter. Just a few sentences on it becomes clear that Molly wont stand for any more of her children dying. She is quite a scarey lady when roused. Bless her

Neville-standing up to Voldemort when the odds against the good side look terrible. He stood up to the Carrows throughout the school year. He chose what was right thing to do. Incredible bravery-Gryffindor through and through. I thought the letter from his gran (in a previous chapter) telling him that she was very proud of him was touching. I am so glad that Neville came into his own.

Harry-Harry has always been good at putting "jigsaw puzzles" together. He joins up pieces of information to form the complete picture. The more information he got the quicker his understanding became and he knew instinctively what to do. I thought the way that he talked to Voldemort was was excellent-especially calling him Riddle. He was completely in control of the situation. It seemed almost Dumbledore like his conversation with Voldemort. He was calm and conversational. The themes e.g love(snapes for Lily)/sacrifice (Harry doing what his mother did)/choices(trying for remorse/stopping before you make mistakes)/disregarding what you dont understand (love/wand lore) are similar to the ones we have seen with Dumbledore. At the end Harry is described as "leader and symbol, their saviour and guide"-not bad for a 17 year old! In the 17 years of life he has experienced way more than the average witch or wizard.

The Malfoys-they finally stopped dancing to Voldemorts tune. The bond of family was stronger than anything else to them-which is as it should be.

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Allison R - Jul 25, 2007 1:18 pm (#73 of 152)
Neville-standing up to Voldemort when the odds against the good side look terrible. He stood up to the Carrows throughout the school year. He chose what was right thing to do. Incredible bravery-Gryffindor through and through. I thought the letter from his gran (in a previous chapter) telling him that she was very proud of him was touching. I am so glad that Neville came into his own.


Legolas Returns-- I wholeheartedly agree. Neville is a shining example of someone personifying Dd's advice about choosing 'between what is easy and what is right'. Neville rocks!!

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Belladonna - Jul 25, 2007 3:27 pm (#74 of 152)
I think the duel between Bellatrix and Molly goes perfectly with the theme of mother's love and protection that runs throughout the books. I see Belltrix as the polar opposite of Molly, just as Voldemort is Harry?s.

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Jenniffler - Jul 25, 2007 4:04 pm (#75 of 152)
Spinowner- And here I was thinking the Deathly Hallows were the Rock/Paper/Scissors game, as in, which one was better? I think your concept is better.

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Solitaire - Jul 25, 2007 6:19 pm (#76 of 152)
he sent Narcissa to check whether Harry was dead or not. Had he chosen any other DE, Harry's plight would have been completely different.
Once again, he doesn't even consider what a distraught mother might do for love of her child. tsk! tsk! He never learns ...

I agree, Legolas, that Harry's "conversation" with Voldemort was very reminiscent of Dumbledore. He totally unhinged him by calling him Tom and Riddle--connections to his MUGGLE FATHER. Voldemort was manic, insane, scared ... Harry was in total control. He was not just Master of the Elder Wand ... he was Master of the battle! It was such a satisfying scene!

I was really please and excited that Neville took over for Harry as well as for F&G--you know they would have done just what he did at Hogwarts! And the moment when he pulled the sword from the hat and sliced off Nagini's head ... What a Gryffindor!

Who besides me can hardly wait to see the movie version of the Molly-Bella battle??? **rubbing hands together excitedly**

Solitaire

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nthdavid - Jul 26, 2007 3:50 am (#77 of 152)
I think there may have been another reason to call him Tom. Bullies are basically cowards, and LV's life was shaped by his two greatest fears. His fear of death and his fear of being ordinary. Harry plays up both of those here.

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spinowner - Jul 26, 2007 4:33 am (#78 of 152)
The main reason Harry called Tom Riddle by his name is because he was no longer Lord Voldemort. Everything that had made him powerful was gone.

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Phoenix - Jul 26, 2007 5:16 am (#79 of 152)
I agree. I also think on the flip side that Harry had so come into his own, and realized just how much power he himself had.

"...But before you try and kill me, I'd advise you to think about what you've done.... Think, and and try for some remorse, Riddle...."

...."It's your one last chance," said Harry, "it's all you've got left.... I've seen what you'll be otherwise.... Be a man...try... Try for some remorse...."

Not only does Harry not see him as "Lord", but Harry has also realized he's not even equivalent to a common man. I think this is where Harry shows his greatest strength, because he has compassion.

********

Who besides me can hardly wait to see the movie version of the Molly-Bella battle??? **rubbing hands together excitedly** - Solitaire

Lol! Absolutely!!

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M A Grimmett - Jul 26, 2007 6:24 am (#80 of 152)
I saw Harry addressing LV as Tom as a salute of equals.

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 26, 2007 6:42 am (#81 of 152)
"Who besides me can hardly wait to see the movie version of the Molly-Bella battle??? **rubbing hands together excitedly** - Solitaire"

She's not just a bland, stay at home broodmare, eh?

"I saw Harry addressing LV as Tom as a salute of equals." I don't, nothing there equal at all. Harry has right on his side.

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Allison R - Jul 26, 2007 9:17 am (#82 of 152)
"I've seen what you'll be otherwise"

I just had a thought here-- do you think he is referring to the flayed baby in the King's Cross chapter? So is the flayed baby Voldemort himself and not just the portion of him that was inadvertantly attached to Harry? I'm just wondering if this might clarify some of the speculation around just what the flayed baby was...

What do you all think?

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Soul Search - Jul 26, 2007 9:36 am (#83 of 152)
Allison R,

I agree.

The idea is, I think, that Voldemort so damaged his soul by making horcruxes and all the killing (enough to make an army of inferi) that there was nothing left to "go on." And there is nothing anyone can do to help.

I am still not sure how Voldemort's soul being there fits with the mechanics of his AKing Harry, the Elder Wand and Harry being its master, the Nagini horcrux still being alive to anchor his soul, etc.

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Esther Rose - Jul 26, 2007 9:49 am (#84 of 152)
Edited Jul 26, 2007 11:27 am
I guess it would really be hard to depict a tortured soul bit that has been ripped from itself and cast aside unwanted.

Until this point we only saw what happens once a soulbit was destroyed. Screaming pain, maybe blood is involved etc. But when Harry "does not die" and ends up at "King's Cross", I think it would be the prime time to see exactly what Voldemort had been doing to himself.

I believe that the flayed baby in Harry's mind is the soulbit that was in Harry. It is a baby because we see babies as a being life that is completely dependant on the things around it. It is flayed because it has been ripped repeatedly until it finally is ripped from its primal soul. It is hidden under a seat unwanted because that is exactly what Voldemort had been doing to his soul bits once they were encased in an object. He had been casting them aside and leaving them to fend for themselves when they were not entirely equipt to do so.

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Soul Search - Jul 26, 2007 10:07 am (#85 of 152)
Esther Rose,

Arrrrgh ... You, too, make some good observations!

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Magic Words - Jul 26, 2007 11:29 am (#86 of 152)
I'm sticking with my gut instinct that the baby is Voldemort himself, partly because of Harry's "I've seen what you'll become." But most of Esther Rose's points could apply to Voldemort's main soul as well as a small bit. It's certainly helpless. It's dependent on Harry because, as we know, Voldemort was knocked out when he tried to AK Harry. And to me, describing something as "flayed" makes a closer comparison with a soul that has had pieces torn off, rather than itself a piece torn off, which I'd be more likely to compare with a missing piece of skin (lovely image, isn't this?) than the baby itself. Hidden under a seat unwanted... Voldemort may recognize that he needs his soul to survive, but he certainly doesn't look after it, does he? And finally, let's not forget the similarity to the ugly baby-creature in GoF, which was definitely Voldemort's main soul.

Voldemort is there because he was knocked out, but I would say he was knocked out because of the blood again. He may have enough of the sacrifice in him to keep Harry alive, but Harry had the majority of it, and so I bet killing Harry affected him. He may even have been dependent on it for his body's survival, since it went into his making.

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Solitaire - Jul 26, 2007 12:18 pm (#87 of 152)
She's not just a bland, stay at home broodmare, eh? I don't think she ever was that, Twinkles. I've always believed Molly was underrated.

Allison, there was something about the flayed baby that reminded me of the description of the pre-rebirthing Voldemort in GoF, Ch. 32: The thing Wormtail had been carrying had the shape of a crouched human child, except that Harry had never seen anything less like a child. It was hairless and scaly-looking, a dark, raw, reddish black. Its arms and legs were thin and feeble, and its face--no child alive ever had a face like that--flat and snakelike, with gleaming red eyes.

I think that is all that is left of Voldemort's soul.

Solitaire

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vball man - Jul 26, 2007 12:36 pm (#88 of 152)
"It's your one last chance," said Harry, "it's all you've got left.... I've seen what you'll be otherwise.... Be a man...try... Try for some remorse...."

Reminds me of Chapter 1 of GoF
"Is that right?" said Frank roughly. "Lord, is it? Well, I don't think much of your manners, My Lord. Turn 'round and face me like a man, why don't you?"
"But I am not a man, Muggle," said the cold voice, barely audible now over the crackling of the flames. "I am much, much more than a man. However...why not? I will face you...Wormtail, come turn my chair around."

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Esther Rose - Jul 26, 2007 12:39 pm (#89 of 152)
I am still convinced that this book was meant to mirror most of GOF. It has some of the other books elements in it but a lot of GOF elements.

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Allison R - Jul 26, 2007 5:25 pm (#90 of 152)
If Voldemort had some of Harry's blood in him (and thus some of Harry's protection from Lilly), then when he injured Harry wouldn't he have also inadvertantly injured himself as well? That might explain him being knocked out when he knocked out Harry.

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Ann - Jul 27, 2007 4:49 am (#91 of 152)
I agree with Magic Words and Allison R that the "flayed baby" was Voldemort himself. I think there must be some essential difference between the "core soul" of Voldemort himself (the baby) and the bits of soul that have been torn off of it to make Horcruxes. I loved the idea that one could painfully reattach the torn-off bits with remorse, particularly since (long ago on an early Horcrux thread) I suggested that what is so evil about making a Horcrux in the first place is that you foreclose any possibility of remorse for the murder that has torn your soul.

When Voldemort AKs Harry, here is what I think happens (and what I think JKR thinks, not just my own theory): Harry dies, or at least goes far enough along that path that he is no longer an effective "container" for the fragment of Voldemort's soul within him. That soul bit is therefore destroyed, just as the Diary Horcrux (the image of Riddle) simply vanishes when the Diary is irreparably damaged. It doesn't die, because it's only a fragment--it's not Voldemort's "core soul," so it just sort of pops out of existence. It is not floating around looking for hosts, like Voldemort's core soul was after Godric's Hollow. It simply doesn't exist to anchor the "core soul" to earth any more. So I don't think the flayed baby can be a representation of it.

But because Harry and Voldemort are "tethered" by the shared blood, even after the soul bit in Harry is destroyed, he takes Voldemort's core soul with him, in it's true form, that of the flayed baby. (This is the reason for Harry's statement "I've seen what you will become," which is an interesting echo of what Harry told the soul bit in the Diary Horcrux: ""I've seen the real you. I saw you last year. You're a wreck.") Voldemort is pulled to the "station" (a sort of nowhere limbo, where one obviously cannot settle or remain long), but he can't "go on," because Nagini is still there to tether his soul to earth. Harry is given a choice to go on, but by doing so, he will break bond that his/his mother's blood has made between himself and Voldemort. Voldemort will then be able to go back and continue to hurt people. Harry makes the choice not to go on, but to return, as the blood bond gives him the ability to do, and kill Voldemort properly.

I really think she might have shown this a bit more clearly, though.

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Soul Search - Jul 27, 2007 6:08 am (#92 of 152)
Ann,

Well reasoned.

I particularly like your observation that all the other soul-bits just vanished in some way, but they could not, themselves, "go on." There wasn't enough to them to have a representation like the "flayed baby."

My sense was the "flaying" represented the damage done to Voldemort's soul from all the killing he had done and the horcruxes he had made.

If I might re-state what I think you are saying. Voldemort's AK "killed" both himself and Harry. The curse rebounded just as it did in Godric's Hollow. And, just as Godric's Hollow, Voldemort's soul, the "flayed baby," first passed to the "way station," represented to Harry as King's Cross, (but probably something else to Voldemort.)

With Godric's Hollow Voldemort's body had died, so when his soul was yanked back by the horcruxes it had nowhere to go and became a sort of spirit. Harry, at that time, may also have "died," but his mother's sacrifice kept his body from truely dying and his soul returned to it. (Harry, of course, couldn't remember it, although I do want to re-read the dreams he had of the event.)

In the Forest, Lily's sacrifice protected both bodies, since Voldemort had taken Harry's blood, so both souls had a body to return to.

Does this help, or am I off base?

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Oruma - Jul 27, 2007 6:33 am (#93 of 152)
Edited Jul 27, 2007 8:50 am
Soul Search,

Voldemort is yanked back (so to speak) in the forest not by Lily's sacrifice; because if it were to depend on it, since Harry is technically dead the charm wouldn't have worked. (Think of two people binded to each other, and both jump off a cliff: who's going to hang on to whom?) Instead LV hanged onto life because he has a last "anchor" in the form of Nagini the Horcrux, and Harry hanged onto life by tethering to LV via the blood-bond.

Also I believe that the AK in the forest didn't really rebounded onto LV, because if it had everyone would've noticed this time (a green flash going the wrong way). It's probably that Harry's close range plus destruction of a piece of soul on his own hands that somehow affect LV to unconsciousness.

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Mrs Brisbee - Jul 27, 2007 6:39 am (#94 of 152)
Thank you, Oruma. Now it finally makes sense. I was picturing a spiderweb of silver strands linking Voldemort and Harry together by soulbit and blood, and trying to figure out how it possibly worked to make Harry live again, and was just getting confused. I'd forgotten about Nagini. The tether line analogy works for me.

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Soul Search - Jul 27, 2007 6:53 am (#95 of 152)
The Nagini horcrux only brought Voldemort's soul back. Something had to keep his, and Harry's, bodies enough alive so their souls had something to return to.

Didn't Dumbledore say Lily's sacrifice was the opposite of a horcrux, that is it worked on the body rather than the soul?

The Nagini horcrux yanked Voldemort's soul back. And something to do with Harry being a horcrux allowed his own soul to come back (I am not sure on this part yet.)

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vball man - Jul 27, 2007 7:34 am (#96 of 152)
So, Harry had a choice to go back or to "go on" (catch a (glory-train," I suppose).

If Harry had gone on, would Voldie have been forced to go on also, or would he have returned to the forest and gloated over the really dead Harry?

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Magic Words - Jul 27, 2007 8:48 am (#97 of 152)
I think Soul Search is closer to the mark. If it were the Nagini Horcrux that saved Voldemort, he would have had to fix himself to the back of someone's head again. So:

Voldemort's AK hits Harry.

The Horcrux in Harry is destroyed. Harry gets as far as King's Cross, but his mother's sacrifice keeps his body alive, giving him the choice to return to it. Apparently it has something to do with the fact that the sacrifice is still alive via Voldemort, whereas if Voldemort hadn't taken the blood Harry's situation would be something more akin to Oruma's cliff scenario--something to hang onto, but it's falling too. If Voldemort had never taken Harry's blood, the AK would have hit the sacrifice and rebounded without knocking off either of them... maybe.

Voldemort receives a backlash of the AK and arrives at the station in flayed-baby form. Maybe it's just because he's linked to Harry through blood. Maybe it's due to a partial rebound. (To think of it in physics terms, Harry has absorbed some of the force so what rebounds is no longer a full-strength AK.) In any case, he remains alive enough to prevent the two-people-falling-off-a-cliff scenario.

Harry chooses to return. Voldemort springs back like a stretched rubber band. He hasn't the ability to choose, but he has a body and a Horcrux and therefore life is his most stable state at the moment. (I'm loving the physics analogies here.)

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Chemyst - Jul 27, 2007 9:01 am (#98 of 152)
If Harry had gone on, would Voldie have been forced to go on also... - vball man

According to Dumbledore, Voldemort would not have been forced to go on at that time. DD tells Harry that if Harry returns, there is a chance Voldemort may be finished for good, but he cannot promise that. To me, that sounds like if Harry does not return, there is a chance Voldemort won't be finished off; Nagini was still slithering at that point. And the basic premise of a horcrux has been all along that it would keep a part of the person alive. (But I wonder if Voldemort would have been in a coma until someone reunited him with Nagini? I think it could be argued both ways.)

I don't know that Voldemort had a choice to go "on" at that point; he may have already sealed his choice in Nagini's snakeskin.

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Allison R - Jul 27, 2007 9:24 am (#99 of 152)
When Hermione is explaining what she learned in that Dark Arts book at the start of their journey she says that a Horcrux is totally dependant on the health of the item or vessel it occupies. If that is compromised beyond repair then the soul bit cannot continue to exsist.

"... But my point is that whatever happens to your body, your soul will survive, untouched," said Hermione. "But it's the other way round with a Horcrux. The fragment of soul inside it depends on its container, its enchanted body, for survival. It can't exsist without it." (DH, US pg. 104)

So when Harry was AK'd and proceeded as far as "Kings Cross", the bit of Velcro-Voldy that was attached to Harry was cast off and could no longer inhabit his body. It became unattached and could not continue to exsist on its own. There was, indeed, nothing that could be done for it. It was beyond redemption, beyond anyone's ability to help it.

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Weeny Owl - Jul 27, 2007 12:17 pm (#100 of 152)
Thinking about Molly going after Bella and just how important mother love can be reminds me of "Aliens," where Ridley tells the alien to get away from Newt (the little girl). Granted, Molly is actually Ginny's mother where Ridley isn't Newt's, but protecting a beloved child is a very strong thing.

"Aliens" was a 1986 movie... maybe Bella should have dropped her Muggle hatred and watched it.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

[Mona]

Prefect Marcus - Jul 27, 2007 3:50 pm (#101 of 152)
Allison, I think you've got it.

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Muggle Doctor - Jul 28, 2007 7:36 am (#102 of 152)
Remember also that Voldemort strikes Harry with the Elder Wand, which cannot kill its true master (Harry), but can kill the bit of Voldemort's soul attached to him.

I had wondered why Voldemort AKing Harry in the forest didn't give him control over the Elder Wand. I just realized that, whether Harry had lived or died, it wouldn't matter. Like Dumbledore with Snape, Harry chose his fate; he chose to accept sacrificial death without battle, and I reckon if he had chosen to "go on" (i.e. to die completely), things would have turned out the same: the Elder Wand would have regarded Harry as having accepted death undefeated; Neville would still have been able to break free of the Body Bind curse (because Harry had died for him and he was protected, along with all the other Hogwartians, the DA and the OOTP) and kill Nagini; the reinforcements would still have arrived to save the Order and the DA; and someone else would have ended up killing Voldemort. He couldn't possibly dodge all of them for very long.

Because when it all comes down to it, all that the prophecy said was that one of them has to kill the other; it never promised that the survivor wouldn't be killed by someone else. And although vanquishing the Dark Lord and removing his power to hurt are not the same thing, prophecy was always an unclear matter. Certainly by selflessly offering himself up for death without a fight, Harry was in effect emasculating Voldemort; rendering his unbeatable weapon useless and coming close enough to rendering him mortal - Neville killed Nagini while he still thought Harry was dead.

Dumbledore was right about things worse than death; spending eternity as a deformed, flayed, monstrous foetus-thing, kicked under a chair in an eternally empty Kings Cross Station to flip-flop in agony until the end of time is about as dismal a fate as I can imagine. This was not the sort of "next great adventure" that Dumbledore and Nicholas Flamel embarked on, I'm sure. The big irony is that the other option Harry offered Riddle - remorse - might have been just as fatal. Hermione says near the start that the remorse needed to decouple the Horcrux from the relevant object and return it to your body can be fatal; God only knows what remorse would do to a soul as unstable as Voldemort's, even given the fact that he had no more Horcruxes left to re-bond with.

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haymoni - Jul 29, 2007 10:17 am (#103 of 152)
TBE - As soon as Molly joined the battle, I thought of Die.

But I think it will take more than a hug from Harry and the defeat of Bella to sway Die to The Molly Weasley Fan Club.

My head was spinning with all the talk of the wands. I actually went back to HBP to re-read the chapter about the Tower to make sure that Draco did indeed disarm Dumbledore.

Harry isn't usually this quick. I can just picture the movie now - Hermione sidles up to Harry and whispers the whole thing into his ear.

It would have been cool if this chapter was called "The Gleam".

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Geber - Jul 29, 2007 10:52 am (#104 of 152)
I noticed that Mrs. Weasley calling Bellatrix a "bitch" ties in to earlier points in the series. In Prisoner of Azkaban Aunt Marge states that problems with a puppy can be traced to problems with the bitch, obviously referring to Lilly. In chapter one of Deathly Hallows Voldemort taunts Bellatrix about having a werewolf in the family, and refers to Bellatrix's potential nephews and nieces as "pups".

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Kevin Corbett - Jul 29, 2007 2:14 pm (#105 of 152)
For everyone delighting in the prospect of the Molly-Bellatrix duel in the movie---knowing them, they'll probably just cut it out. At the current rate, I think Deathly Hallows should come in at about 80 minutes, so they'll hardly have time for it. They'll just imply that Bella was rounded up with the rest of the DE's. And if you think I kidding...well, think about the other things they've cut as not important enough to put on screen.

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Choices - Jul 29, 2007 4:18 pm (#106 of 152)
I think you're probably right, Kevin, but personally, I'm not going to worry about it. I will probably be too blurry eyed and weepy from all the deaths to see it clearly anyway.

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Solitaire - Jul 31, 2007 8:02 pm (#107 of 152)
Kevin, I can't believe Jo would stand for the movie-makers cutting out THAT duel. It would be complete sacrilege!

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Kevin Corbett - Aug 1, 2007 12:40 am (#108 of 152)
After all she's apparently endured, I think she'd say, "Oh, it was delightful---just as I imagined it!" to pretty much anything. My opinion of Jo's reaction to the films is that she is blinded by love of the material to think as ill of them as they deserve. I'm pretty sure that she will stand for pretty much anything and smile at it. I don't blame her, of course, because I might do the same thing.

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Columbine Fairy - Aug 1, 2007 2:04 pm (#109 of 152)
Wow, what a chapter!! Voldemort really was stupid, the killing curse on Harry didn't work in the forest, and he just tried it again without figuring out why!! And all that talk of "Potter will come to me", and he didn't even think that a sacrifice on Harry's part would protect all the others from him.

Agreed that it was good to see Slughorn on the good side, although that didn't surprise me at all given how much he liked Lily and Harry and how ashamed he was of his relationship with the young Tom Riddle.

I thought Molly was fantastic!! After everything she's watched and been through, holding it together while her kids have been putting their lives on the line for 7 years (remembering Ron was knocked out by a chess piece when he was 12 and Ginny possessed by Voldemort the year after), and countless injuries to the rest of the family (Arthur, Bill, George), Fred's already dead, now she thinks Harry is dead, and finally she sees a killing curse whiz past her 16 year old only daughter's ear (which would have worked, as it came from Bellatrix not Voldemort)...well I don't think anything was going to stand in her way.

And who would have thought of Kreacher leading the house elves into battle??? I was so sad that it wasn't Dobby, but happy all the same. I hope Harry gets his steak and kidney pie eventually.

Another thought: wouldn't there have been a portrait of Snape in the headmaster's office when Harry etc went up to it? (another thought, would there be a portrait of Umbridge?)

Further random thought - everyone in that hall will now be able to see thestrals. That's a big increase in the thestral seeing population percentage.

And finally..."Voldy's gone mouldy"...???? Gold Jo, pure gold!

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journeymom - Aug 1, 2007 2:28 pm (#110 of 152)
There would never have been a portrait of Umbridge. I got the impression that Hogwarts itself didn't accept her, she never was the real Head.

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Columbine Fairy - Aug 1, 2007 2:32 pm (#111 of 152)
Fair point, she never did get into that office, did she? (I always wondered how she got that position, when supposedly the head was always chosen by the governors... but thats another point entirely).

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Choices - Aug 1, 2007 5:51 pm (#112 of 152)
Fairy, JKR said in her Webchat that there was no portrait of Snape because he was thrown out of Hogwarts. She did say it was possible that later Harry made sure that Snape got the portrait he deserved in the Headmaster's office.

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Magic Words - Aug 2, 2007 6:42 am (#113 of 152)
And all that talk of "Potter will come to me", and he didn't even think that a sacrifice on Harry's part would protect all the others from him.

This was one of the aspects that worked well, IMO. There were several holes, but this part worked. How many times have we heard that Voldemort underestimates love?

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Mrs Brisbee - Aug 2, 2007 7:52 am (#114 of 152)
Something confuses me about the sacrifice. Harry wasn't really given a choice like his mother, to step aside or die. He was always going to be killed no matter what, if Voldemort got his way. Why then did Harry's sacrifice work?

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kaykay1970 - Aug 2, 2007 8:04 am (#115 of 152)
I feel that it worked because Harry made a choice to walk into the forest willingly and sacrifice himself. It may not have had the same effect if Voldemort had hunted him down and killed him.

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journeymom - Aug 2, 2007 8:06 am (#116 of 152)
Because he didn't fight it?

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Mrs Brisbee - Aug 2, 2007 8:09 am (#117 of 152)
I'm just confused because Rowling has said that the only reason Lily's sacrifice worked was because Voldemort gave her a choice. James was always going to die, so his death could provide no protection to Harry. Lily always had the "choice" of not throwing herself in front of her son in the first place, of course, just like harry had the "choice" of not going to the forest. But Rowling has indicted that it was the other choice that was provided by Voldemort that triggered the protection. I was under the impression that if Voldemort had been planning on killing her without the offer to step aside than the protection wouldn't have worked. So I am confused.

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Morlicar - Aug 2, 2007 12:34 pm (#118 of 152)
Forgive me if I'm remembering wrong; my book is not available at the moment. I think Voldemort gave an ultimatum to Harry: Come to the forest and face me and your "friends" will live or avoid me and everyone dies. Harry was given a choice, by entering the forest and facing Voldemort, he followed his mother's path. I think his sacrifice did give protection to the others, but not as strong a protection as his mother gave him. I'm guessing because it got a little diluted -- he protected ALL of the defenders of Hogwarts.

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Wanda - Aug 3, 2007 6:15 am (#119 of 152)
I never thought Grey back actually attacked Lavender... they saw him running across the hall to attack her, but I was under the impression, both in the initial read and the re-read, that Hermione blasted him off her before he had the chance to sink his fangs in.

Just the way I read it...

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Luna Logic - Aug 3, 2007 8:47 am (#120 of 152)
Yes, me too at the secod reading, Wanda. I think Lavender was already wounded when Gryback ran to her.

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freshwater - Aug 3, 2007 10:29 am (#121 of 152)
Edited by Denise P. Aug 3, 2007 7:02 pm
...in response to an earlier discussion on this thread, Esther Rose (post 84, I think) wrote about the flayed baby at King's Cross, abandoned under the chair, unwanted and uncared for...

Although following comments likened this figure to a bit of skin that had been stripped off, I think a better comparison would be an abandonned newborn baby. Taking the life of the innocent and defenseless is a true act of evil. This, in essence, is what Tom Riddle did to himself in choosing(!) to re-created himself as Lord Voldemort and in attempting to escape death by being willing to use whatever horrible means was necessary: killing others to create horcruxes to 'safeguard' bits of his own soul.

Edit: I edited this to take out a comment that is not appropriate for discussion on the Forum. I believe the edit still reflects what Freshwater was trying to say without the possible inflammatory nature of the original comment. Denise P.

On a different topic...it seems to me that most of LV's mistakes in the final chapters can be traced back to his pride and arrogance: sending a mother to see if Harry is truly dead, putting Godric Gryffindor's Sorting Hat on Neville's head, thinking physical possession of the Elder Wand gave him it's power....it's clear that he felt that, if it (love, courage, honor, magical theory) wasn't important to him, then it couldn't be important to anyone else or have any negative impact upon him. Harry's choices and behaviour throughout the book --and series-- show the alternate view: understanding goblin mindset was crucial to negotiating with Griphook, understanding the transferal of the Elder Wand and the consequences of self-sacrifice --and their impact upon others, not just himself-- all combined to allow Harry to overcome ultimate evil.

I'm still about 60 posts back in my reading of this thread, so apologize if this is repetative...just had to get these thoughts down before I got distracted by other views/posts.

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Phelim Mcintyre - Aug 3, 2007 12:41 pm (#122 of 152)
So we now know what happened to Voldemort, he is trapped as the abandoned baby in "Kings Cross Station". A fate worth than death, not a ghost, not alive, unable to go on to the next big adventure as Dumbledore, Snape and others have. A soul so ruined that it useless. All this comes from Jo's webchat on the Bloomsbury site. I wonder if during the battle in the MoM Dumbledore (who had already started to suspect about the horcruxes) realised that this fate awaited Tom Riddle. Did Harry which was why he challenged Voldemort to feel remorse, to give Tom a chance to leave "Kings Cross"?

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journeymom - Aug 3, 2007 1:04 pm (#123 of 152)
Yes, Phelim, I think so. Harry was very wise to do so. I think it was compassionate. He offered even this horribly twisted, evil being, a chance to feel genuine remorse. Did Harry have the authority to do so? Yes, as the orphaned child of two of Voldemort's victims, and as one who'd been to the other side and knows what awaits him there, he, more than anybody else, did have the authority.

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Nicoline Vance - Aug 3, 2007 1:50 pm (#124 of 152)
Phelim, I suspect that Dumbledore guessed as to the state of Voldemort's soul and knew what his future looked like if he didn't change. I think he didn't destroy Voldemort at the MoM, because he knew about the horcruxes. He would just have become Vapormort again. Although, I would like to think Dumbledore was reaching out to Tom Riddle. Give him a chance to feel remorse. Where there is life there is hope, that sort of thing. I just don't believe that Dumbledore expected that to happen.

I agree with journeymom that Harry was displaying compassion. He gave Voldemort a chance to repair his soul to a degree. I think that the trip through Tom Riddle's past, in HBP, did give Harry a small degree of pity for him. Merope choosing death over living for her son. Does anyone recall Harry's conversation with Dumbledore about pitying Lord Voldemort?

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Prefect Marcus - Aug 3, 2007 3:08 pm (#125 of 152)
No, I don't think Harry was "offering" Voldemort a chance to feel remorse and escape a fate worse than death. He was merely stating a fact. The path was always open to Voldemort to feel remorse. Harry was being merciful and informing Voldemort of the choice he could have taken anytime he wanted. "Authority" has nothing to do with it.

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haymoni - Aug 3, 2007 4:24 pm (#126 of 152)
If Voldy started to show remorse at that point, who would have believed him????

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Prefect Marcus - Aug 3, 2007 4:29 pm (#127 of 152)
It is the fact that he feels remorse that counts, not if anyone believes him or not.

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TomProffitt - Aug 3, 2007 4:30 pm (#128 of 152)
If Voldy started to show remorse at that point, who would have believed him???? --- haymoni

I don't think that Harry was suggesting that Riddle show remorse to avoid Earthly consequences. Harry was telling him that remorse was his only avenue to avoid the consequences in the hereafter.

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haymoni - Aug 3, 2007 4:36 pm (#129 of 152)
I meant that if Voldy started to show remorse right then and there, nobody would believe him and would probably take the opportunity to try and attack him.

Neville was pretty good with that sword!

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Magic Words - Aug 3, 2007 6:57 pm (#130 of 152)
It wasn't going to happen. I think Harry must have known that Voldemort wouldn't even blink at hearing someone say "you should feel bad about what you've been doing for the past 50+ years." However, it's not Harry's place to give up on anyone else--only Voldemort had the power to place himself beyond redemption--so he mentioned the option in the interest of fairness. That's how I read it.

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Prefect Marcus - Aug 4, 2007 8:08 am (#131 of 152)
I think it was more of mercy than anything else. Harry pointed out a way to escape a fate worse than death, yet Voldemort refused to take it. In the end it was his pride that did him in.

How true to life is that?

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Chemyst - Aug 4, 2007 5:38 pm (#132 of 152)
I think Harry must have known that Voldemort wouldn't even blink... Magic Words

Yes, but again, this doesn't speak about LV's character nearly as much as it does Harry's.

It is like — If you know there is danger ahead and the other person does not, and yet you don't warn them, then you are partly responsible if they are hurt. But if you do warn them and they chose not to listen, then you are not responsible.

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Prefect Marcus - Aug 4, 2007 7:12 pm (#133 of 152)
Perfectly stated, Chemyst.

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Steve Newton - Aug 5, 2007 5:17 am (#134 of 152)
I think that when the tale is told the story of Neville and the Snake will be repeated to wizard children endlessly.

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nthdavid - Aug 5, 2007 2:36 pm (#135 of 152)
The reason Dumbledore didn't kill Valdemort at the MOM is that he knew Harry had to die, and if LV had to generate another body, it would be unlikely he would be able to use Harry's blood again. It was Harry's blood in LV that kept him from dying when he was AK'd.

At the MOM when DD told Harry to keep down, Harry thought DD was afraid but didn't know why. DD was afraid that he would have to kill LV to keep him from getting control of the Elder Wand.

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Muggle Doctor - Aug 15, 2007 6:59 am (#136 of 152)
When Kreacher says "Fight for my master, defender of House Elves! Fight the Dark Lord in the name of brave Regulus!" I wonder at times if he isn't speaking only of Regulus, rather than of Harry and Regulus in that order. Sure, Harry has done his bit for House Elves, but on the other hand Regulus died to avenge Kreacher's treatment at Voldemort's hands, and I wonder if the bonds of affection (dare I say love?) are not more truly tied to Regulus. The fact that he leads the charge wearing the "RAB Locket" strengthens this Regulus-only theory in my mind.

Thoughts, anyone?

On another note, I wonder what Hermione thought of it all in the end. She was the one who was so moved by Ron saying "We don't want any more Dobbys". It's interesting but still somewhat perplexing - ultimately when the House-Elves came out to fight they were doing it either (a) of their own free will (though with Kreacher's encouragement), or (b) because their binding to their household (Hogwarts) demanded it of them. Which? I am more inclined to see it as the first; that Kreacher, who still sees himself as a bound House-Elf, whipped them up into a frenzy and led them out willingly into the fight.

If this is true, this self-determination will help the cause of SPEW immensely - maybe Hermione and the House-Elves can reach a middle-ground as to what freedom represents, with Hermione accepting that their preference is to remain bound to their household (because being freed is equivalent to being sacked in disgrace) and the house-elves realizing that they aren't expected to put up with the sort of treatment Dobby got from the Malfoys (and to a lesser extent, what Sirius gave Kreacher, though having to go back to Grimmauld Place after the sort of childhood he had could only have made him bitter).

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Columbine Fairy - Aug 15, 2007 9:13 am (#137 of 152)
Muggle Doctor, I am inclined to believe that the house elves probably acted of their own free will, feeling a) a certain honor and duty to protect their home and the people who lived in it, and b) a need to help in the cause against Voldemort. It seems to me that the Hogwarts house-elves were treated pretty well, but if Voldemort had taken the school their living conditions, IMO, would have declined dramatically - alot of them probably remember how it was the last time he had power.

As for Kreacher, Harry told him that all he was doing was to make sure Regulus didn't die in vain, so Kreacher probably had no problem going along with that, and a little encouragement to the other elves was probably all they needed to go charging into the fray. They may also have remembered all the good things Dobby used to say about Harry Potter being good to house elves - why wouldn't they go to help him? They may even have felt honor bound to avenge Dobby in some way.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 15, 2007 9:57 am (#138 of 152)
Perhaps, Kreacher realized that while, Sirius showed him little kindness, that Harry was greater than Sirius because, Harry demonstrated that unlike Sirius he was capable showing mercy, kindness, temperance, and justice.

On the whole I would argue that Harry's change of attitude forced Kreacher to reassess his view of Harry.

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TomProffitt - Aug 15, 2007 12:26 pm (#139 of 152)
Harry gained Kreacher's loyalty because he discovered Kreacher's last task from Regulus and vowed to help Kreacher accomplish that task. It had little or nothing to do with the way Kreacher was treated, or else the little toerag would have been in love with Hermione by the end of OP.

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Xenophilius - Aug 15, 2007 12:42 pm (#140 of 152)
Little toerag - LOL

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NFla Barbara - Aug 15, 2007 1:27 pm (#141 of 152)
I hadn't thought of Kreacher meaning Regulus by "my master," but he certainly could have been. DD's explanation of Kreacher's betrayal of the Order at the end of OoP indicated that house-elves can have loyalties or affections beyond their immediate masters, but they are still bound by "the enchantments of their kind." Even if he was bound to Harry, his affections were certainly with Regulus. Still, to go from passing information to the Malfoys in OoP to fighting LV shows a big awakening on Kreacher's part. I guess it made sense to me that he was fighting for both of them. No one else has simple motivations, why should Kreacher be any different? ; )

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freshwater - Aug 15, 2007 2:25 pm (#142 of 152)
I believe that I must agree both with Tom P. and NFla Barbara: I think Harry gained Kreacher's loyalty //initially// due to his offer to help Kreacher complete his final assignment from his beloved Regulus, and also by giving him the fake-locket/Black-family-heirloom....so the trio got cooperation and good meals from Kreacher. But to move from that to rallying the Hogwarts elves --without an order from Harry-- does seem to indicate that Kreacher has developed some sort of self-actualization/independent thought and has chosen to support the struggle that Harry leads and that Regulus had begun years ago. I like your statement NFlaB, the "no one else has simple motivations, why should Kreacher by any different?" That may have been JKR's point in having Kreacher show up at all for the final battle.

By the way, NFlaBarbara....I used to live in Gulf Breeze, across the bay from Pensacola....does that area of the state have any connection to your user ID?

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Chemyst - Aug 15, 2007 6:07 pm (#143 of 152)
muggle doctor, when I came to that part, I read it twice and concluded Kreacher did mean Regulus. Harry framed his need for the horcrux in the context of Regulus not having died in vain; that was inspired brilliance! I think that sentiment, coupled with giving Kreacher the locket was – for Kreacher – a validation of Regulus as Kreacher's "true" master.

Whenever we saw Kreacher & Dobby together, they were fighting; so I am not sure how "honor-bound" he'd feel about avenging Dobby. Kreacher may have seen Harry as a nice guy for helping him finish the task of destroying the locket, but as sort of a kook to have Dobby as a defender. I'd think Kreacher's main motivation for going after the Dark Lord (notice the elf did not say the V-word either,) would be that LV killed Regulus, or inferiused him, whatever?

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NFla Barbara - Aug 15, 2007 7:02 pm (#144 of 152)
For a completely separate observation...this might be reading too much into the chapter title, but as I was looking back through OoP for one of my other posts, I re-read the part at the end where DD explains his actions throughout that year to Harry, especially his lack of contact with Harry, and the reasons he delayed so long in telling Harry about the prophecy. DD says several times that he had a plan for Harry, but there was a flaw in the plan. The flaw was that he cared for Harry too much, and kept deciding to spare Harry the burden of knowing what lay ahead, even though it meant withholding the truth. So in both books, "the flaw in the plan" is...


"Is it love again? said Voldemort, his snake's face jeering. "Dumbledore's favorite solution, love, which he claimed conquered death, though love did not stop him falling from the tower and breaking like an old waxwork?"


(And yes, freshwater, I'm in the Panhandle, but at the other end.)

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Columbine Fairy - Aug 16, 2007 3:11 am (#145 of 152)
Chemyst, I was referring to the other house elves wanting to avenge Dobby, they just needed a ringleader, so to speak. I am sure that Kreacher and the Hogwarts elves would have had different motivations for fighting, not that it mattered in the end.

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freshwater - Aug 16, 2007 12:14 pm (#146 of 152)
I'm glad you made that connection, NFlaB., between the "flaw" chapter in OotP and the "flaw" chapter in DH....very interesting. I'll try to bring it up in the discussion group at my local bookstore this Saturday...will report back on any interesing responses on this point.

(Ah, you must be closer to St. Augustine or Jacksonville...I should have guessed since my end of FL would be referred to as 'northwest' FL...guess I've been away too long and had forgotten that.)

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Choices - Aug 17, 2007 8:55 am (#147 of 152)
The Christ-like symbols abound in this chapter. Harry is called "their savior", he is pierced by nails, he "dies" and comes back from the dead, he "dies" for all his friends and saves them from the threat/spells of Voldemort. In the end, he triumphs over evil - causing Voldemort to be killed by his own spell. Christ, before he was crucified wore a robe which the soldiers stripped off of him and cast lots (gambled) for it (famous movie called "The Robe"). Harry wears a robe also. Christ wore a crown of thorns - In the forest, Harry has branches that catch at his hair and robes. Lots of interesting similarities.

Voldemort does some non-verbal spells.

Thanks to the Elder Wand, Harry gets the holly wand back - as good as new.

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kingdolohov - Sep 16, 2007 2:16 pm (#148 of 152)
I liked seeing Flitwick show his power. We really hadn't seen much of it. Hermione (I think) said that she heard he was a dueling champion when younger, but we'd never seen anything of that sort. We hear he removed Fred and George's swamp with no trouble, which indicated he has ability. The only battle he was in was when Dumbledore was killed, and he was taken out by someone on his side away from the battle. Not very flattering.

But his attacks on Snape, setting complex protections on the school, and taking down Dolohov, who we've seen is a very talented wizard, all show that he's much more than a squeaky little man.

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freshwater - Sep 17, 2007 4:00 pm (#149 of 152)
Good point, kingdolohov. Let's hope they include that in the 7th movie.

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kingdolohov - Sep 24, 2007 2:29 pm (#150 of 152)
Excuse me for not having the exact quote, but I don't have my GoF book with me. I believe Uncle Vernon referred to Molly as a dumpy-looking woman with a load of kids when Harry received the invitation to the Quidditch World Cup.

At first glance, this description isn't very interesting, because it just shows Vernon's nastiness like usual. But it's way more interesting when you consider that his description of her basically is the reason why she beat Bellatrix. Her love for her kids gave her the strength and courage to fight Bellatrix, and her appearance caused Bellatrix to underestimate her.

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Victoire Weasley - Oct 5, 2007 7:54 am (#151 of 152)
I agree kingdolohov, Bellatrix shows she is just like her master when she underestimates the power of love and the strength it can give.

I love the Molly/Bellatrix battle, it's one of my favorites. I also enjoyed the part when Kreacher lead the house elves out of the kitchen with knives and cleavers. I was actually worried about him after Harry, Ron and Hermione didn't show back up at Gimmauld Place.

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kingdolohov - Oct 25, 2007 2:26 pm (#152 of 152)
I know at one time there was a topic on songs we thought matched parts of the book, but I don't know where it is and this fits here anyway.

The song "The Rising" by Bruce Springsteen just seems to fit perfectly with the rout in this chapter, starting with Neville breaking the body-bind curse and killing Nagini. The song starts slowly then picks up, just as the battle resumes with Death Eaters falling everywhere as reinforcements arrive. There is another slow spot in the middle of the song, which I think fits with the "but it wasn't over yet" line. As it picks up again, I can see Macnair, Dolohv, Yaxley, Thicknesse, Rookwood, and Greyback go down. The last minute is Molly fighting and defeating Bellatrix, before fading as Harry finally reveals himself, setting up the final confrontation.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

[Mona]

Kip Carter - Jul 20, 2007 10:10 pm
Edited Jul 20, 2007 11:12 pm
This thread is to discuss Only the Epilogue of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows!


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Cerpin Taxt - Jul 21, 2007 3:25 pm (#1 of 208)
It was ok. Left me a lot of questions tho... To those that might complain about it remeber she wrote it a while back she was not as great as a writer as she is today.

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Nymphadora - Jul 21, 2007 4:51 pm (#2 of 208)
Why wasn't it great? I loved it... the families, the happiness and safety and serenity emanating from all of them, it was what they fought for! And I laughed so fondly at the middle son's name!!

Why so many years though... unless they chose to savour each other before anyone else came

I'm happy, I'm exhausted after hmm...15 hours of almost non-stop reading, and I want to bid you all: let the nitpicking begin!

Edit to say - I thought I shouldn't put the actual name in my post... but I'll be smiling whenever I think of it, and Harry's words to his son. Oh and we should have found out what happened to Big D... he seemed to have changed indeed...

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Holly T. - Jul 21, 2007 4:51 pm (#3 of 208)
"Albus Severus"--last time I cried. Proof that Harry has forgiven Snape. And I really don't think he'd mind if his son is in Slytherin. The houses united.

Editing to add--Harry finally has what he wanted all along--a family, a normal life, which includes squabbling children, etc.

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hellocello3200 - Jul 21, 2007 5:40 pm (#4 of 208)
Do we know if Harry ever finished his schooling? I thought there would be more on his career etc.

hmm, my reaction to Albus Severus was "ha, old Snape must be spinning in his grave over that one..." His name next to the surname Potter is justa little odd to me.

Who did Ted stay with then if not with his Godfather?

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Lady Nagini - Jul 21, 2007 5:45 pm (#5 of 208)
My guess is Andromeda.

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hellocello3200 - Jul 21, 2007 5:57 pm (#6 of 208)
silly me, I forgot she was still alive...I sort of wrote off Tonk's parent's when her father died...too much to take in.

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TomProffitt - Jul 21, 2007 5:59 pm (#7 of 208)
I would have loved to learn more here, but there really wasn't much need for the story to have more. I think anything longer would have lessened the impact of the epilogue. I was also pleased that we weren't confronted with an impersonal list.

I trust Rowling will answer many, but certainly not all (how could she have time?) of questions in interviews and her website.

Did anyone else notice that only one character's profession was mentioned in the epilogue?

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Finn BV - Jul 21, 2007 7:53 pm (#8 of 208)
I really enjoyed everything in this chapter, but I was disappointed there wasn't more. What was there was great, though. Harry's bit explaining the unification of the houses to Albus made my day.

I'm a bit confused by the timing though. How could Teddy Lupin still be at school nineteen years after his birth? Or did he pull a Marcus Flint? Or had he graduated from Hogwarts, and Harry's son James just saw him on the platform?

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Denise P. - Jul 21, 2007 7:58 pm (#9 of 208)
Read it again, he came to see her off...he was not going himself.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 21, 2007 7:58 pm (#10 of 208)
Finn, he was just on the platform to see his girlfriend Victorie Weasley, who given the French name she possesses I assume is Bill and Fleur's daughter.

I liked the epilogue although, I am curious to know what happened to Charlie, Percy, George, Luna, and Professor Sprout.

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Thom Matheson - Jul 21, 2007 8:21 pm (#11 of 208)
Loved the Draco and Harry eye contact. I could just see them saying with a nod. Just a couple of dads getting their kids off to school.

Professor Longbottom certainly has a nice ring doesn't it?

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rassannassar - Jul 21, 2007 8:56 pm (#12 of 208)
YEAH IT DOES. Oh, sorry about that, I'm just so giddy. I just finished it. My personal record: 12 hours. Finally, now I can SLEEP so i can get up for work tomorrow

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Kevin Corbett - Jul 21, 2007 11:08 pm (#13 of 208)
The only thing wanting here is that Luna's fate is not elaborated on. After becoming so important a character, you'd think she'd be there. But hasn't this chapter been written for awhile? I was never really sure, but do you reckon it possible that Luna never existed in JKR's mind until book 5?

Also, the last line is a little corny, I think (I've commented on the main thread...no need to repeat myself). Maybe our beloved authoress (and I assure you that I use that term as one of the highest esteem) came eventually to regret that she told the media the last word would be scar, and felt obligated to at least keep it in the last paragraph.

Actually, because of JKR's recommendation, I've recently been devouring everything Jane Austen ever wrote. Most of her final chapters (er...at least in Sense and Sensibility and Mansfield Park...I can't remember if this is the case in Pride and Prejudice) are sort of similar...er, at least in that they tend to give an extended "and they lived happily ever after".

As to why its 19 years...my guess is that this would put the epilogue scene in 2017, ten years (less a month and a half) after the present day, July 2007. Which puts us in the present about halfway between the Voldemort's death and the epilogue.

Still, by 2017, we muggles had better have flying cars of our own, or at least cars that can drive themselves.

Also, anyone have any speculation on the names Hugo and Rose? I guess I can see continuation of the flower thing, but why Hugo? I'm I missing something completely obvious?

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TheSaint - Jul 22, 2007 1:46 am (#14 of 208)
Did George continue the joke shop without his brother?

Did Harry free Kreacher? Is he still working for the Potters?

Luna...Was Dean grabbing her hand supposed to lead us to a connection for her?

Will have to live with the OBHWF ending!

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Muggle Doctor - Jul 22, 2007 3:03 am (#15 of 208)
Rose is, I think, a continuation of the flower thing. Hugo might go with Victoire as a bit of a joke - Victoire after all is the feminine form of Victor.

Victor Hugo.

Does anyone think there's anything in the fact that Remus "Moony" Lupin's son has a thing for Bill "Rare Steak" Weasley's daughter?

"Scorpius Malfoy" - love it.

I was really, really impressed with Harry having named his younger son after Dumbledore and Snape, and being able in the end to verbalize Snape's bravery. I thought on the first read-through that he ought to have perhaps had some emotional reaction then and there to the whole Lily/Snape business (any pre-HBP shippers for which can all take special awards for services to fandom - I take my hat off to all of you). On the other hand, he'd just found out that his destiny was (allegedly) to be served up to the Dark Lord on a platter, so he can be forgiven for thinking more or less only about himself there. From that perspective, it is more appropriately in the epilogue.

2017 - that makes Harry 37. How old was James when he died?

I was also impressed with Harry being able to say that he didn't care if Albus ended up in Slytherin, but that Albus couldn't be forced into it.

While Harry would potentially make a very good DADA teacher, I think it's important for plot reasons that he be 'divorced' from the school. As an adolescent, he'd found a home there; as an adult, it was important to show that he'd found a home somewhere else.

I too would have liked to see how some of the others turned out. But it really doesn't matter (and it gives the fan fic community something to play with). Maybe when JKR publishes that threatened 8th Harry Potter Book (the encyclopaedia/concordance, with all the spoilers), the back-stories will find their way in under the individual characters' entries.

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azi - Jul 22, 2007 3:47 am (#16 of 208)
I think in book 6, the Marauder Era (James, Lily, Remus, Snape etc.) would have been around 37, so it's quite close in age. Maybe it was to show that Harry had a happy ending, whereas they didn't? James would have been in his early 20's (around 21?) when he died.

I hated the epilogue. I'm not so fussed about the characters we heard of. It's all the others I want to know what happened with! Did McGonagall become headmistress? Was Draco Malfoy's wife Pansy Parkinson? What happened to the Malfoy's and other Weasley's? Luna? Ollivander? Did Kreacher move in at Harry's new house to serve him?

I didn't like the naming of kids after those characters. I can understand using his father's name, or having Albus etc. as middle names, as that's a tradition in my own family. I agree with others that there are too many connotations with the original characters for it to be right. Another thing is that I often find sibling's names seem to fit together but here they don't to me.

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Kevin Corbett - Jul 22, 2007 7:52 am (#17 of 208)
Of course, there are going to be things left unanswered. There are two possibilities of ever knowing---JKR tells us a bit in an interview like she did with Emerson and Melissa for HBP, or if we can the charity book/encyclopedia we're all salivating for.

I've always liked to flatter myself that our beloved author trolls around here or is actually one of us in disguise...and if that is the case I'd just like to tell her that I would gladly pay upwards of fifty dollars for such a book, even were it to go to a ridiculous charity like Jetcars for Tots (I watch too many cartoons)...although Comic Relief would admittedly be preferred.

Oh! I've got it! Now, I know this might seem mercenary, and that one should do such things only out of the goodness of ones heart, but I would "pledge" some hours of charity work to encourage the publication of such a book. Indeed, I would be willing even to empty and scrub the bedpans in a retirement home for many an hour to encourage such a book.

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Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 22, 2007 8:16 am (#18 of 208)
Does anyone think there's anything in the fact that Remus "Moony" Lupin's son has a thing for Bill "Rare Steak" Weasley's daughter? Muggle Doctor LOL! Interesting genetic combinations. Might create a new species.

At first I didn't like the epilogue. But I've changed my mind. By leaving so many questions unanswered we are free to imagine them ourselves. I'm not a Fanfic writer but oh the opportunities! LPO

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Ms Hagrid - Jul 22, 2007 8:54 am (#19 of 208)
By leaving so many questions unanswered we are free to imagine them ourselves. I'm not a Fanfic writer but oh the opportunities! LPO

I'm not a fanfic writer either, but the thought makes me smile as well, LPO. I think I'll wait a week or so and see if anyone has set sail on the Luna/Dean ship! :-)

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sstabeler - Jul 22, 2007 9:55 am (#20 of 208)
Edited by Denise P. Jul 22, 2007 12:14 pm
I didn't see much wrong with Teddy Lupin snogging Bill Weasley's daughter. Despite the potential age difference, it need not mean anything. heck, my mother is nearly a decade younger than my father. Another clue that they are close in age is that neither Harry nor Ginny say there is too large an age difference. If anything, it completes those seen as part of the family BEING part of the family. Also as for the names- naming the kid Albus Severus actually seems good to me. It was their way of honoring the two Headmasters. As an aside, I hope Snape got a portrait. (Snape seems to have been legitimately named headmaster in place of one who died, rather than to replace a legitimate headmaster.)As for who has become Headmaster, I think we can rule out Draco by his presence on the platform ( if he was Headmaster at the time, then James Potter would definitely comment on it. same for harry and Ginny, and Ron and Hermione. I would say either Sprout or Mcgonagall.

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hellocello3200 - Jul 22, 2007 11:23 am (#21 of 208)
Are we assuming Neville is head of house if McGonagall is Headmistress, or will be eventually? That would be cool, plus his sword use would point to an especially strong connection to Gryffindor.

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essie125 - Jul 22, 2007 12:06 pm (#22 of 208)
What a disappointing epilogue.

Not what I had expected at all, but I guess Jo had her reasons, cos now we'll all run to the bookstore to get that HP-encyclopedia.

I thought this book would answer all our questions? Did DH answer all your questions? I personally still don't know whether Snape wears pyjama's, boxers or nothing in bed. hehe What about answering all my questions then Jo?

p.s. OT! I know, but I loved the dedication in this book. It made me smile. Alas! the last HP. I'm already having withdrawal symptoms, but luckily we still have two movies to come.

How they will ever turn DH into a film, I'll never know, but I wish them good luck with it.

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Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 22, 2007 1:35 pm (#23 of 208)
I wasn't too disappointed with the epilogue - except how did we get from Harry in the headmaster's office to Kings Croos Station. At least we can't complain we have nothing to keep the fan fiction going. 19 years to right.

Oh yes and one thought which I shared at Sectus and took on a life of its own. Albus Severus Potter must be in Slytherin and be a parsel-tongue. What else could he be with the initials bASP ?

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Mare - Jul 22, 2007 2:15 pm (#24 of 208)
bASP?

Huh?

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Geber - Jul 22, 2007 2:31 pm (#25 of 208)
I think the staff at the real King's Cross Station better start planning now for the real-world party that will occur in 2017.

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Madam Pince - Jul 22, 2007 3:10 pm (#26 of 208)
I think it was a typo, Mare -- I think Phelim meant "ASP" (Excellent point, Phelim! I agree 100%)

When I read the words "Albus Severus" I totally lost it. I felt so badly for Prof. Snape, dying like he did and so senselessly, never knowing that everyone finally realizes he wasn't a bad guy. (No mention of a posthumous Order of Merlin First Class in the epilogue? Shame, JKR!) I'm on the boat that Snape wanted Harry to look at him so he could see Lily's eyes one last time. And the fact that the kid Harry & Ginny named after Severus is the one kid that has Lily's green eyes? Just stop. I'm bawling again already...

I liked the epilogue, but like everyone I wanted more. Mainly I want to know if and/or how the trio finished off school -- did they ever go back and finish their last year, or just figure that "life experience" handled it? And I want to know their careers, too. And what happened to Luna most definitely. There could've been someone on the train platform reading The Quibbler with a headline about famous explorer Luna Thomas discovering a Blibbering Humdinger or something.

I was also a bit disappointed with the way Hagrid was handled. I was really thinking he and Harry were closer and that there'd be some more significant mention by Harry of how much Hagrid had meant to him. I suppose I should just be glad he's still on the right side of the sod, because I was sure he was going to die.

All the different kids' names were confusing to me -- thanks Nathan for the theory that Victoire is Bill and Fleur's daughter! I had no idea who she was supposed to belong to. I also fully expected Teddy Lupin to have been brought up by Harry as the godfather, even though Harry was only seventeen, but I like the idea of Andromeda doing it and him spending lots of time at Harry & Ginny's house.

Kevin Corbett, one of JKR's many literary awards is a Hugo Award -- anyone know if that was her first one or if it means something special to her in any way? That was the only thing I thought of with naming Ron & Hermione's kid Hugo. Rose I have no idea about. I love Scorpius Malfoy, but I want to know who Draco married! I'm hoping Pansy Parkinson (that complete cow) ended up in Azkaban with all the other cowardly Slytherins who joined Voldy after running from Hogwarts.

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Liz Mann - Jul 22, 2007 3:14 pm (#27 of 208)
I wanted to comment on the epilogue first (and probably won't comment on the rest of the book until tomorrow - it's 12.08am here and I've only recently finished the book and am still overwhelmed) because it bugs me.

Of course I am most definitely happy that Harry had a good life after everything he went through (especially since, for a while there, I thought she was actually going to have him die and I was horrified). But I'm not a big fan of epilogues that show what happens to the characters years later. If it had only been one year later to show that Harry was happy, I would have been happy too, but I prefer to think of the characters as they were during the bulk of the story, and the image of 37 year old Harry makes me uncomfortable. Harry, to my mind, is a teenager, not a 37 year old parent.

And besides, the epilogue rules out any possibility of fans of other ships writing fanfiction that is not AU. I mean, AU is all well and good, but it's not quite the same. I do ship Harry/Ginny and Ron/Hermione in canon, but in fandom I support another, non-forum-suitable, pairing.

Personally, I'm one of the few who didn't want more information about careers etc because again it limits what fanfiction writers can do without having to make their stories AU. Fanfiction, afterall, is going to be one of the main things keeping this fandom going long after the end of the series.

I'll probably skip the epilogue on future re-readings.

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Madame Librarian - Jul 22, 2007 3:14 pm (#28 of 208)
On the overview thread I said that I didn't think the epilogue very good. It was too treacle-y. The "happily ever after" theme was overdone. It was just too, too cute with Ron and Hermione mildly sniping at each other about the driving test. I thought the only kid whose name we really needed to know was Albus Severus Potter (ASP--I like that) to show that Harry had truly understood Snape at last.

I was uncomfortable with the apparent continued rivalry between Sytherin and Gryffindor, although maybe I'm being unrealistic to think that merely getting rid of Voldemort would cause a change of hearts and habits in just 19 years. I hope the Sorting Hat is still pushing its ulitmate message of unity amonst the houses.

What the heck does Harry do for a living? Why isn't Hermione a prof, too? Where do they live, who works where? What about Luna? Is Percy Minister for Magic now? That stuff would have been great to include.

Ciao. Barb

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Madam Pince - Jul 22, 2007 3:20 pm (#29 of 208)
What does "AU" mean?

Oh, yes, I forgot about Percy. What was he doing on the platform spouting regulations? Did he maybe take Filch's place?

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Mare - Jul 22, 2007 3:21 pm (#30 of 208)
It doesn't make much of a difference bASP or ASP, I still don't get it... HELP!

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Liz Mann - Jul 22, 2007 3:23 pm (#31 of 208)
Sorry - it means alternate universe, which usually means that in the fanfic a particular canon feature never happened, e.g. a particular character didn't die, a particular couple didn't happen, a paricular event didn't happen etc. AU stories commonly focus around "What-If"s, like, "What if James and Lily never died?" "What if Neville was the chosen one?" "What if Wormtail was found to be the secret keeper straight away and Harry grew up with Sirius?" etc.

Common AU stories from now on will probably be along the lines of, "What if Snape had lived?" and other such things.

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KTO - Jul 22, 2007 3:28 pm (#32 of 208)
I think that we will get many more answers during JK's American tour starting in October, I think she loves answering fan's questions and the interaction and this way there will be plenty of questions and plenty of answers.

I also would agree to do charity work for the Potter encyclopedia

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Wanda - Jul 22, 2007 3:32 pm (#33 of 208)
I loved the Epilogue and, in fact, the whole book. The ONLY thing that bothered me in the Epilogue was that none of the kids were named after Fred and that we didn't hear anything about what George was up to. Fred and George were fairly central characters and close to a lot of readers' hearts, but they were just completely left out, as if none of the main characters even remembered them! Annoying!

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The giant squid - Jul 22, 2007 3:33 pm (#34 of 208)
Mare: ASP=Albus Severus Potter, and is also the name of a type of snake. The thought of such a person ending up in Slythierin just seems right.

Liz: While I guess I can see where you're coming from, saying that the epilogue isn't good because it doesn't let you write what you want in JKR's universe seems a little silly. Why would she care what anyone else wants to write--it's her story.

I liked the epilogue, though I did get a little confused as to which child was which at first. And yes, I would like to have known what happened to the rest of the characters, but unless she just did a list of names & occupations it wouldn't have fit.

--Mike

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Mare - Jul 22, 2007 3:44 pm (#35 of 208)
the name of a type of snake

Thank you so much! I thought it was something with the english language that I missed, but my translation site gave me nothing.

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Ann - Jul 22, 2007 6:35 pm (#36 of 208)
I liked three things in the epilogue. The best bit, of course, was Harry's naming his son after Albus and Severus and telling him that Severus Snape was the bravest man he'd ever known. I liked Ron admitting to Harry that he'd Confounded the Muggle Driver's Test administrator. And I liked the fact that Malfoy and his weirdly-named son were there and that he and Harry were able to nod politely to one another. Other than that, it was pretty fan-fiction-ish. Not that that's a bad thing, but the rest of the book was so much better than any fan fiction, it was a bit of a disappointment.

But she can give us a lot of the information we crave if she makes her "Hogwarts: A History" volume the 2017 edition....

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Finn BV - Jul 22, 2007 8:15 pm (#37 of 208)
Oh no, Ann, that might mean we'd have to wait 10 years for it!!

Thanks for the clarification that Teddy Lupin was just seeing her off -- I just reread the epilogue and noticed it too.

What the heck was Percy doing?? I don't think Percy would return to the Ministry, but shouting broomstick regulations? BTW, are there any jobs in the wizarding world besides Ministry, teaching, shop owning, and self-employment? Oh, and I guess Daily Prophet writer.

"Luna Thomas" ? DEFINITELY! I was waiting for that!

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geauxtigers - Jul 22, 2007 9:32 pm (#38 of 208)
I thought the epilogue was cheesy, but I don't care! LOL I liked it, I just wished it had been longer and included more characters. I wanted to know about George, is he okay? I still can't believe she killed Fred and not George, either both or niether, I can't even imagine what that'd do. Not that I wanted either to die, but I think its a bit cruel to leave George alone like that.

I was confused about the Teddy Lupin thing too! But I'll go back and re-read that.

I'm glad Harry said what he did to Albus Severus! LOL just sounds so wierd and funny! But I'm glad Harry forgave Snape.

Loved how Ron confunded the driver's license guy!

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essie125 - Jul 22, 2007 11:49 pm (#39 of 208)
Well,

after reading the book we know one thing for sure. Harry is definitely a decedent from Salazar Slytherine.

Didn't Marvolo Gaunt show his ring a.k.a. resurection stone, with the Peverell coat of Arms a.k.a. Dathly Hallows to proof that he was a decendent of Salazar Slytherine?

Well if Gaunt is a decendent of the middle brother and Harry is a decendent of the younger brother and all three brothers are decedents of Salazar Slytherine, then that makes Harry a decendent of Salazar Slytherine, in my opinion. So who's to say that he did not inherite the ability to speak Parseltongue from Slytherine. Who's to say LV transferred this power onto him.

Nah I loved the Albus Severus Potter thing, that was great. But Snape deserved more credit like I've said in other posts. Snape deserved to be there with Lily, James Sirius and Lupin as Harry's 'death guard'. I feel Snape was cheated and I feel cheated by Jo as well.

But on the good side I have started to read the book again, maybe after reading it again, I'll feel more positive about it. I don't know why, but it has always worked with the movies.

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TheSaint - Jul 23, 2007 2:14 am (#40 of 208)
essie - Well if Gaunt is a decendent of the middle brother and Harry is a decendent of the younger brother and all three brothers are decedents of Salazar Slytherine, then that makes Harry a decendent of Salazar Slytherine, in my opinion. So who's to say that he did not inherite the ability to speak Parseltongue from Slytherine. Who's to say LV transferred this power onto him.

I took it to mean that the brothers were before Slytherin. I think the bards are older than 1000 years. They may share a common anscestor but it wasn't Slytherin, I am probably wrong though.

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Regan of Gong - Jul 23, 2007 2:32 am (#41 of 208)
Ending was too Hollywood.

I would have preferred a few pages where it went through a list of characters, such as "Harry Potter married Ginny Weasley, became Minister for Magic, had 17 children and earned 3 million House Points to boot."

It also means Harry is, however distantly, realted to Voldemort.

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Witherwings - Jul 23, 2007 3:41 am (#42 of 208)
I don't think that Harry is related to Slytherin, it could have come from a different part of the family - not necessarily from the three brothers.

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Miss Malaprop - Jul 23, 2007 3:50 am (#43 of 208)
Everybody is related to everybody in the wizarding world.

When I got to the last chapter I really didn?t want to read the epilogue. It didn?t seem necessary and I probably won?t bother with it when I reread. (However I did let out a squeal at R/H!)

I?m glad we didn?t get to find out about everyone?s career. That way everyone can imagine what they like. Personally I find it hard to imagine Harry being anything so (ahem) flighty as a Quidditch player, or being an Auror and chasing crooks who must seem insignificant compared to Voldemort.

Kevin, it?s funny you mention Jane Austen, her books were ready on my bedside table for the comfort reading I was sure I would need after the trauma of Deathly Hallows. I didn?t dare hope for a happy ending!

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Chemyst - Jul 23, 2007 4:50 am (#44 of 208)
I was really disappointed in the Epilogue. The only truly "cool" thing that stood out for me was that Harry had acknowledged Severus being headmaster enough to use the name as a middle name for one of his children. And slightly poignant was that the children could not see thesatrals.

The epilogue would have been sufficient for the manner in which I usually read fiction novels (once; and if they are really good, then maybe once again after a few years,) but after years of discussion on the forum, I have become invested in the ancillary characters too. Luna? with Dean? Dudley? Umbridge? George ? is "Weasleys' Wizard Wheezes" now Weasley's Wizard Wheeze? Does Teddy need a monthly dose of wolfsbane?
We are supposed to guess that cousin Victoire was Bill & Fleur's; (unlikely a namesake of Krum with that spelling,)? And where did the name "Rose" come from; (short for Rosemerta does not make sense,) just a random flower?

If the final rebound was due to wand incompatibility, what caused the original rebound?

I did not mind the lack of future career information too much; but only because it kept the characters from being defined by their job and allowed the emphasis on the family.

_____adding on as I read through this thread:

Do we know if Harry ever finished his schooling? - hellocello3200
Mainly I want to know if and/or how the trio finished off school.- Madame Pince
There was one line; Harry said a four-poster bed was waithing for him in Gryffindor Tower. I assumed this meant he planned on finishing. Otherwise he'd have said he was headed back to 12GP.

How old was James when he died? - Muggle Doctor
the tombstone dates indicate 21 years, 7 months.

Despite the potential age difference? - sstabeler
Teddy and Victorie could be as little as 11 months apart if Fleur became pregnant as soon as the war was over.

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Holly T. - Jul 23, 2007 7:34 am (#45 of 208)
Victoire, in addition to being the feminine form of Victor (and the French versioon of Victoria), of course means "victory." I think it would be an entirely appropriate name for the first baby born in a family after a horrible war.

Percy is probably back working for the Ministry in some kind of rule-enforcement division.

Harry and Tom are both descended from the Peverells. At some point one member of Tom's branch of the Peverell family married a descendant of Slytherin. That doesn't mean Harry and Tom are related.

If Draco had married Pansy (the cow), it would have said Harry saw Draco and Pansy, instead it said "his wife." Maybe even a Muggle-born.

I think it would have been funny if they had also met on the platform young Albus and James's second cousin, there with his or her dad, Dudley.

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Weeny Owl - Jul 23, 2007 7:48 am (#46 of 208)
Harry and Tom are both descended from the Peverells. At some point one member of Tom's branch of the Peverell family married a descendant of Slytherin. That doesn't mean Harry and Tom are related.

That's how I saw it, Holly.

John Peverell marries Ann Adams, while Joe Peverell marries Sally Smith. Harry's family comes from John and Ann; Tom Riddle's family comes from Joe and Sally, and somewhere along the line, little Sal Slytherin comes into the picture.

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gankomon - Jul 23, 2007 8:10 am (#47 of 208)
The epilogue was fun, but I had wished for much more. Like so many others, what happened to George? Did he even survive? Remember that "fifty others" died defending the castle, not just Fred, Tonks, Lupin and Colin Creevey. I suspect Percy went back to the Ministry once it was de-Voldified. Wasn't Kingsley named temporary Minister of Magic?

I would have liked to see what Harry, Ron and Hermione ended up doing for a living as well. After Harry's well-documented differences with the Ministry, I cannot really believe he would have carried on in his ambition to be an Auror, though he might. Kingsley was an Auror too, I recall, so maybe he would have mentored Harry. He might have helped out George with the joke shop? He was already the silent partner....

On a fun note, I love that Ron had to Confund the driving examiner- I expected that Harry would know how to drive, growing up as he did in the Muggle world.

But I am most curious as to where Harry & family live. He has two options- Number 12 Grimmauld Place or his parents' house in Godric's Hollow. I would like to think that he went back and rebuilt the cottage in Godric's Hollow- there is no better reminder that the war is over and victory occurs than rebuilding the ruins from the first war. And I agree with what someone else said- did Harry free Kreacher? I cannot believe that he didn't, considering what he wrote on Dobby's grave.

Anyway, these are my first thoughts.

Regards,

gankomon

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Chemyst - Jul 23, 2007 8:36 am (#48 of 208)
did Harry free Kreacher?
I doubt it; it is not that Harry wouldn't have diplomatically made the option available though. I think Kreacher loved Regulus too much, that 12 GP is such a part of who Kreacher is at heart, that any separation from the house at all, even a "Your are welcome to stay, but you have to stay as a free elf," would have been offensive to Kreacher. I simply don't see Harry offending Kreacher that way. Perhaps in another 19 years Kreacher might be ready... And in a way, the locket might have acted as a token of clothing; it is something Kreacher can wear, but he hasn't treated it as an emancipating item. Maybe he could if he wanted to.

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Kevin Corbett - Jul 23, 2007 9:19 am (#49 of 208)
ROSMERTA! That's it! Snap! I can't see how Hermione would have accepted it, but you're right, it fits completely. Well, I guess since she knew he was the one he loved, she wouldn't begrudge him such an obscure reference to his first crush. Oh...perhaps she's actually "Rose Lavender Weasley"...I can imagine Hermione being more sypathetic to Lavender in general after her, um, unfortunate mishap. Remember that Hermione finally kissed Ron on his finally expressing concern for house-elfs. I can't imagine she would hold any bitterness against Lavender after she had become a werewolf, so deep was her care for the plight of the oppressed in the Wizarding World. (This might sound weird but as I've just been reading Mansfield Park, I can't help but remember a line about the heroine Fanny Price, where the narrator or someone says "If there was any way to Fanny's heart, it was through her sense of goodness" Or something like that.)

I would like to think that Harry's profession was...author. I like to imagine a very Roald Dahl epigram at the end, whose corniness would surpass even the real one: "And Harry James Potter [like James Henry Trotter before him] wrote down his story so all the children could hear it, which is what you have just been reading". Perhaps Hermione was his editor. Sounds far fetched, yes, but better than letting Rita Skeeter publish nonsense for 19 years.

Although this may stick in some craws, I think we are indeed supposed to understand that Harry is related, at least to Marvolo and hence Riddle through the Peverells, but not necessarily Slytherin. Marvolo said he was was "distantly descended" from the Peverells---his pride in that had nothing to do with Slytherin. But I think we are to understand that Marvolo was from the line of the second brother, the one who had made the stone of rebirth (I really need to look of what that's specifically called), whereas Harry is descended from the third brother, the wise one who hid from death under the invisibility cloak.

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Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 23, 2007 9:46 am (#50 of 208)
Yes I did mean ASP it should have been in bold but I missed the gap. As i was tired from Sectus and reading I hope I'm forgiven.

I also wouldn't be suprised if Albus Severus Potter (ASP) is a parselmouth.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

[Mona]

hellocello3200 - Jul 23, 2007 10:28 am (#51 of 208)
Chemyst, good point! That certainly points to a desire to finish school.

The discussion of descendents reminds me of a article about how about 10% of England is descended from a certain English King, but I forget who...

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spinowner - Jul 23, 2007 10:47 am (#52 of 208)
A list of names and occupations would have reminded me too much of the ending to the movie "Animal House".

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Tazzygirl - Jul 23, 2007 12:34 pm (#53 of 208)
I didn't really like the epilogue either. I did like how it shows the main characters happy and all, but I thought it should have been where it tied all of the characters up. While it gives the Fan Fic people a lot to work with, I kind of wish JKR closed it. I think it would feel more complete.

I also want to know what the professions of the four were. Did Harry become an Auror like he wanted?

Did Hermione bring her parents back?

I thought Harry's kids' names where cheesy. I can understand Lily and James, but for some reason I didn't like the 'Albus Severus' name. I thought it was a little far-fetched. Rose and Hugo sounded odd to me as well.

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Mare - Jul 23, 2007 12:59 pm (#54 of 208)
Percy in the epilogue and Harry's reaction to him sounded very much like old Percy, not new Percy. I dislike that.
I have decided (for myself) that Percy is on 9/3/4 not because he is in some kind of function, but because he is seeing his own children of. Fleur and Bill will after all also be around somewhere to wave Victoire goodbye.

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freshwater - Jul 23, 2007 12:59 pm (#55 of 208)
Can I suppose that you liked the name "Scorpius"? **grin** Now that's cheesy! I'm sure Draco and wife think it has some astrological connection, but it sure sets up the kid for being teased as "a poisonous little insect"!

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wolfgrl - Jul 23, 2007 1:46 pm (#56 of 208)
...and Scorpius and ASP were to become the best of friends...And the next generation of the Mauraders is born...Sting, Viper, _____and_____.

OK, so thats a bit of a streatch :-P

I actually really liked the epilogue, but I agree I would have liked info on a few more characters.

Wolfgrl

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Prefect Marcus - Jul 23, 2007 2:31 pm (#57 of 208)
No, I doubt Harry finished school. The Battle of Hogwarts took place very late in the school year (after Easter I believe).

I suspect that Harry became an Auror. That is what he always wanted to do. I seriously doubt his not finishing school (assuming he didn't) would stand in his way. Can you imagine the Ministry of Magic turning down the Vanquisher of Voldemort's application for the job of auror on the grounds he wasn't qualified?

Few things truly frighten bureaucrats, but one of the biggest is becoming a laughingstock to the general public and thereby calling unfavorable attention to themselves. Somebody somewhere would make a quick exception for him, guaranteed.

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Chemyst - Jul 23, 2007 2:42 pm (#58 of 208)
I suspect that Harry became an Auror.
Doubt your doubt, Marcus.

And quite honestly," he turned away from the painted portraits, thinking now only of the four-poster bed lying waiting for him in Gryffindor Tower, and wondering whether Kreacher might bring him a sandwich there, "I've had enough trouble for a lifetime."
I think he has had a change of career plans.
Of course, that was the last line in the real book and technically does not go on an epilogue page but?

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Prefect Marcus - Jul 23, 2007 2:58 pm (#59 of 208)
Chemyst: Doubt your doubt, Marcus

So, what else is new, Chemyst. Oh, and hello to you, too. ;-)

Of course he had a bed waiting for him in Gryffindor Tower. He had never been officially expelled, unless I missed that part. As to given up his dream of being an auror, the young man is exhausted. Let's see what he thinks after a goodly amount of rest.

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Geber - Jul 23, 2007 3:15 pm (#60 of 208)
As for the threesome completing school, the threesome were completing an extended homework assignment given by the headmaster. So they could just show up for the exams; no doubt all the reading they did in Hermione's portable library, plus a little practical experience, would help them do well. Or, perhaps with all the deaths and injuries, they would be invited to administer the exams, and would be given automatic Os in the subjects they administer. I understand some very well regarded British universities give automatic doctorates to any full professor who does not already have one; this would be the same idea.

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Geber - Jul 23, 2007 3:21 pm (#61 of 208)
I felt the epilogue was not up to the standard of the rest of the book, but epilogues in general seldom are. This epilogue (if it truly is nearly the same as when JKR first wrote it) makes up for its shortcomings by providing insight into how JKR went about writing the seven books; the other epilogues I've read don't have that redeeming quality.

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Jenniffler - Jul 23, 2007 3:38 pm (#62 of 208)
Ron and Hermione name their kids Rose then Hugo? Come on people! They switched the R and H around so it would not be obvious the named the tykes after themselves.

Albus Severus was predicted but not by me. I wonder how Harry convinced Ginny to do that. Did the newborn ASP (love it Phelim!)produce a bat-bogey hex the moment he was born or what? Definitely Griffindor material, or he wouldn't be scared. But it really depends upon who he "clicks" with on the Hogwarts Express.

Victoire-- How snooty (and Phlegmatic) of Fleur. Perfect.

I don't believe Ron would wait years to take a driver's test. No way.

All was well.-- Okay, but only because it had to end at all.

Goes away humming. All is well.

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Holly T. - Jul 23, 2007 5:08 pm (#63 of 208)
I am 99 percent certain that JKR edited that epilogue as she went along. After all, we know she changed the last word. We know she had to alter it somewhat because of people dying who she hadn't planned on dying when she first wrote it. She's too good an author to take something she wrote many years ago and just tack it onto the end of the book without reading over it and making sure it still fits.

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Cerpin Taxt - Jul 23, 2007 5:13 pm (#64 of 208)
I am sure she did and that I am sorry I led people to assume she wouldn't edit it.

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freshwater - Jul 23, 2007 6:57 pm (#65 of 208)
Just a thought....one fanfic I read (one of the best, BTW) had Harry choosing to drop out of auror training to go to New Zealand to train in search and rescue. At first I was incredulous, but it makes a lot of sense: no more dark wizards, still action-packed and requires thinking fast in dangerous situations, is all about "saving people". So that's how I picture Harry for the next 19 years.

While I would have liked more details about other characters, I did like that the epliogue was set so far in the future....nothing like looking back for enjoying the certainty of a peaceful and contented life. The final sentence was the best possible, IMHO..."All was well."

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totyle - Jul 23, 2007 7:58 pm (#66 of 208)
I finished the book Sunday and havent been able to do a reread yet....but I did read the Epilogue again...like others at first read I thought...eh..is that it and actually thought I'd skipped pages or something..but on second read I liked it. I felt if they'd given us a year after scenario it would still have many unanswered questions regarding the distant future..this way the book is truly ended as we know they lived happily ever after...(well sort of) and I'm just a sucker for endings like that..especially after all that Harry has gone through I thought that epilogue was very satisfying. I know a lot was missing on the other characters we have grown to love..but the main story's about Harry/Hr/Ron so the epilogue concentrated on their happy ending. JM2K...

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essie125 - Jul 23, 2007 11:44 pm (#67 of 208)
I feel this epilogue is so disappointing. And JKR has really underestimated herself as a developer of characters everyone has come to know and love.

What was she thinking? That we only wanted to know how Harry, Ron, Hermione, Ginny, Neville and Percy were doing? Hello! No!

I had honestly relied on Jo's remark that all my questions would have been answered by the end of book 7. She did not do that at all for me.

Also with the fact that she wanted to publish the seventh book 10 years after the 1st one, she gave herself a deadline and I think this sincerely affected the book. It just felt to rushed for me.

I know I was one of the many who could not wait for the last book, but now that I've read it. I would have preferred Jo to just take her time, look back at all the things she had said she would answer in the 7th book and if it would have taken her another 300 pages, none of us would have cared about that. I got the book and I thought, that is way smaller then I had expected.

and on the matter of Harry being related to Salazar Slytherin, No where does it say that Slytherine lived after the Peverell brothers. Even if he did, that would still mean that he was a decedent of the middle brother due to the ring a.k.a resurection Stone and Harry was a decedent of the third brother, so in a way they are still related.

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NickyJean01 - Jul 24, 2007 6:38 am (#68 of 208)
Ive been thinking about everything the epilouge is missing.. and I don't think JKR is as done as she says she is.. Maybe she did purposefully leave it open because it would be great to expand.. She opened up herself a big ol pandora's box and she doesn't want to be swayed from what these characters are giving her by what many of us believe are important.. Maybe she's not ready to move on yet either and has decided to do more in the wizarding verse. I would like to point out that the idea of the 7th year from those at Hogwartz would be a great start... Then that story would be about the others we care about and would focus on them..

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Geber - Jul 24, 2007 6:44 am (#69 of 208)
Perhaps when JKR wrote the first version of the epilogue, she didn't know what it would feel like to write the entire series, and at that time wanted to leave room for a sequel. Now, she feels much less inclined to write a sequel, but maybe her editing of the epilogue was restrained to correcting outright contradictions, and she decided not to edit it to the point of ruling out a sequel.

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M A Grimmett - Jul 24, 2007 6:49 am (#70 of 208)
I do agree with essie that in in some places it felt rushed. The loopholes we've spotted have really bothered me. I wish she'd taken a little more time to really smooth things out.

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Magic Words - Jul 24, 2007 7:31 am (#71 of 208)
Albus Severus! I'd thought I was finished crying but I wasn't. It's a horrible name the way it completely fails to roll off your tongue, but that's not the point! I had also been disappointed that Snape and Dumbledore didn't show up for Harry's "honor guard," but the fact that Harry was able to recognize both of them once he'd gotten some emotional distance made it all better. I suppose the "honor guard" was strictly for comfort purposes--it wasn't the time to go about fixing up broken relationships, especially since Harry probably thought he'd have enough time for that, in person, very shortly.

I was disappointed that nobody had named their kid Fred, but I feel better since I saw someone point out (I forget where) that they thought only George really had the right to do that. Since George wasn't mentioned, I can just assume he has a little Fred running around somewhere. I wonder if the deal with Rose and Hugo wasn't merely to show that Ron and Hermione have managed a normal life even after all that's happened? But James and Al--I'll let you room together only when I want the house demolished? They're like Marauders/Weasley twins all over again! (Scorpius, though, that's just a horrible thing to do to a kid.)

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 24, 2007 8:13 am (#72 of 208)
"I do ship Harry/Ginny and Ron/Hermione in canon, but in fandom I support another, non-forum-suitable, pairing." Some things, just like fanfiction, are better left to one's own imagination.

"Fanfiction, after all, is going to be one of the main things keeping this fandom going long after the end of the series." I totally disagree. I have read some fanfic's, and got totally disgusted with them all. After all, it is Jo's story to tell, not other writers. What Jo left us was our own imaginations, not just the fanfic writers, and all of our imaginations will carry us wherever, not just be sustained by the fanfic writers. Do you think that just because we do not put our ideas, dreams, fanatsy's in writing, they are any less real to us?

He has two options- Number 12 Grimmauld Place or his parents' house in Godric's Hollow. After his nearly death scene there, I see #12 as a better opiton.

"(Scorpius, though, that's just a horrible thing to do to a kid.)" Why, this is the wizarding world after all.

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mollis - Jul 24, 2007 9:48 am (#73 of 208)
I loved the book overall, but I have to admit, I hated the epilogue. It just seemed so cheesy. Almost forced smiles and references to a few things just so that we get a snippet of information about some other characters that we had fallen in love with. I really felt the need for another chapter where we saw things put back together after the major battle. I would have liked to have seen the discussion about whether they can rebuild Hogwarts (it was curses that destroyed parts of it), a funeral or memorial to the fallen (Lupin and Tonks just didn't really seem dead to me and who else died - there were 50 or so bodies!), I wanted to see Harry and Ginny collapsing in each other's arms and Harry realizing that he can have a happy life and a future now.

Even though there were a lot of things that I wanted to see tied together at the end, I do know that no matter how much JKR had given us we would have always wanted more. Its just the nature of the wonderful world that she created for us!

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poohnpiglettt - Jul 24, 2007 10:40 am (#74 of 208)
"I did like that the epliogue was set so far in the future....nothing like looking back for enjoying the certainty of a peaceful and contented life. The final sentence was the best possible, IMHO...'All was well.'"--Freshwater

I totally agree. I think that if the epilogue had been set just a year or so after the battle with LV it would give very messy, unecessary details. A country after a war is a mess for many years. Being far enough into the future let us see how happy and uneventful (in a good way) the lives of the main characters were and that Harry was at peace without putting us through all the trials and rebuilding, and countercurses and burials, etc. we would have to go through if the epilogue was one year or so after. Hasn't JKR always said that her books were about a boy searching for a home (or something to that effect)? I was happy knowing that Harry had what he had always wanted--I finished the book with a deep sigh.

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Mrs Figg - Jul 24, 2007 11:54 am (#75 of 208)
Mollis I am in full agreement, I too wanted to see a bit more of a close to the big battle scene. It was all action and then suddenly over and the next thing I knew I had hit the epilogue. I am a big fan of epilogues or even appendices filled with dates and small tasty tidbits of information. The epilogue for me was too short, I was thrilled that Ginny and Harry as well as Ron and Hermione were married and had children. In my ideal epilogue we would have seen their weddings, career development, and a bit more of home life. I am very curious of what happened to the other characters, in particular George dealing with the loss of Fred. It was a nice glimpse but I was hoping for something more elaborate.

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mollis - Jul 24, 2007 12:17 pm (#76 of 208)
Exactly! It was just such a short glimpse, only a few pages. I guess if it had been longer I might have been happier with it. There was just not enough information in there for me. It was nice that is was far enough into the future that they were able to look back relaxed and happy, it just would have been nice if more of the central characters could have been "on-screen". Like if it had been set at the Hogwarts graduation of Harry and Ginny's eldest child. Then almost everyone would have been there and they could have reflected back on their own time at school and talked about old friends and where they are now. I don't know, I guess I'm just sad to think that we won't get any more HP.

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Choices - Jul 24, 2007 4:21 pm (#77 of 208)
Edited Jul 24, 2007 5:54 pm
Mare, just a further explanation about ASP. It is a poisonous snake and it is the kind of snake that Cleopatra used to commit suicide. :-)

I liked the Epilogue. I am thankful, however lacking in information it was, that we got what we did. As for the rest of the ones we wished to hear about, I think we will just have to use our imaginations on some and our powers of deduction on others.

I need to go back and read it again because when I got to Albus Severus, I dissolved into tears and was hardly able to read the rest. Even now, just thinking about it, my keyboard is growing blurry.

Sometimes, I think a little wondering is a good thing. A good performer always stops before the audience becomes sated - always leave 'em wanting more - JKR is one great performer.

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Chemyst - Jul 24, 2007 5:21 pm (#78 of 208)
A good performer always stops before the audience becomes sated...

I do understand your point, and it is a valid one; but there is sated and there is starving. Sated would have been learning the outcome of Hagrid & Madame Olympe's friendship. Not knowing about Luna is starving time.

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Madam Pince - Jul 24, 2007 6:52 pm (#79 of 208)
Mollis! ***waves furiously*** How lovely to see you again!

I agree that only George should have a kid named Fred. That's the first thing I thought of when there were little munchkins running around the Epilogue.

After I finished bawling after reading the words "Albus Severus," ( ) it occurred to me how very fitting it is that the name you usually only hear when you're reeeeaallly in trouble is the name of someone who probably made both parents (Harry and Ginny) tremble apprehensively back in the day when he used to say their names! Even now, hearing the word "Severus" is making some little kid jump in fear! Somehow, I think Snape would approve! "Albus Severus!" ***guilty start*** "What?? I didn't do it!"

Chemyst, thanks for pointing that out about the four-poster bed. At the time, I took it as just that Harry was exhausted and only wanted to crawl into a bed and sleep, and naturally he would sleep in his own bed in Gryffindor tower. Even though there may have been a few months left in the school year, Hogwarts (the building) was pretty much physically destroyed and even with magic might take awhile to repair before classes could resume. But I just really want Harry to go back to school for some reason, even though it would be such an anti-climax after defeating the wickedest wizard of all time. It would be a "normal boy" kind of thing to do, and that's all Harry ever wanted -- to be normal. I'd like to see him finish out a couple months of classes, ace his exams because of all the practical experience he got on his extended homework assignment from his headmaster (LOL! love that, whoever said that!) and then be all done.

Harry and Tom are both descended from the Peverells. At some point one member of Tom's branch of the Peverell family married a descendant of Slytherin. That doesn't mean Harry and Tom are related. --Holly

Ummmm...actually, that's exactly what it does mean. If they are both descended from a common ancestor, then they are related. (I'm not quite sure about your second sentence, though -- I thought that we had proof - Marvolo Gaunt told Ogden that his family was Salazar Slytherin's last living descendants, and that Slytherin's ring had the Peverell "coat-of-arms" so we can assume that Slytherin was descended from a Peverell, rather than that Slytherin pre-dated the Peverells and that a Peverell married a Slytherin descendant. It has to be that a Peverell married a Slytherin ancestor, if Marvolo is correct.) So if Voldemort is descended from Slytherin (which we are told in canon), who apparently was descended from "Ring" Peverell (according to Marvolo Gaunt's evidence,) and we know Harry is descended from Ignotus "Cloak" Peverell (as Dumbledore tells us on p. 714 of DH), then yes, they are related. I believe the term is "collateral relative" or something -- the parents of the three Peverell brothers are the common ancestors (CA in geneaology terms) of Harry and Voldemort. Now, Harry is not a descendant of Slytherin or of Voldemort, but he is related to both of them collaterally.

Yet, he is a "true Gryffindor." Huh... interesting, isn't it? It's not who we're born, but who we become. All these years I've been trying to figure a way that he'd be related to Godric somehow -- Lily and the red hair and pulling the sword from the hat and all.

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Robert Dierken - Jul 24, 2007 8:03 pm (#80 of 208)
I also would have liked to know more about various characters in the epilogue.

I think that JKR did edit the epilogue along the way, since it has the joke about the muggle driver's license. This appears to be a reference to the movie Driving Lessons , where Rupert Grint plays the student and Julie Walters plays the instructor!

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Jenniffler - Jul 24, 2007 8:12 pm (#81 of 208)
I don't those lessons had anything to do with operating a motor vehicle, Did you see that movie, Robert Dierken? Loved it, not for junior forum members.

It would propose that this is a continuation of the Weasley blood traitor tradition. With two preteens and muggle grandparents a car makes a lot of Hermione-type sense.

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journeymom - Jul 25, 2007 12:02 am (#82 of 208)
Albus Severus *sob!* Oh, I'm just a wet mess. I'm still choked up about it.

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Holly T. - Jul 25, 2007 9:16 am (#83 of 208)
Madam Pince, what I meant to say is that it doesn't mean that both Tom and Harry are descended from Slytherin. They are related through the Peverells. You are correct that what I posted earlier makes no sense. ;-)

I think the mention of "Granddad Weasley" implies that Rose and Hugo have another set of grandparents. Would it have been too much to have young Rose wear braces? Hee.

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Thom Matheson - Jul 25, 2007 9:32 am (#84 of 208)
Drivers licenses? From which left field did that come from? Or why?

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mollis - Jul 25, 2007 9:42 am (#85 of 208)
***waves back at Madam Pince*** Lovely to see you too, Madam!

As for the drivers licenses, I can sort of see that. Hermione must have brought her parents back and they would have to live as muggles still, so driving is probably the only way to go see them. Ron probably figured if Hermione can do, he should be able to do it too.

I did finish my second read through last night, and I'll have to admit that the epilogue grew on me a little bit. I still think that it is too forced, but I appreciate what she is trying to do with it. I do think that you could tell by reading it that she had written it back when she wrote the first book. It just had the same feeling about it. Which may have actually been intentional. In the first book Harry is the happiest he's ever been and has no worries - at least none compared to what he eventually has to worry about - you know, saving the world and all. No big deal really.

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NFla Barbara - Jul 25, 2007 9:47 am (#86 of 208)
I wondered about that...after all Ron is now in his 30s. Maybe it signifies some closer involvement with the Muggle world, to please Hermione? Maybe they need to be able to drive to Hermione's parents' house with the grandchildren (assuming they returned long ago with memories intact).

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Luna Logic - Jul 25, 2007 11:02 am (#87 of 208)
About Percy's future... thank you Mare, I will take your view on the question !
Mare : I have decided (for myself) that Percy is on 9/3/4 not because he is in some kind of function, but because he is seeing his own children of.
Perhaps he really has married Penelope Clearwater, then. (Is there a hint- when Hermione give that false name to the Snatchers - and says Penelope is a Half-Blood ? p. 363-364)

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I Am Used Vlad - Jul 25, 2007 11:29 am (#88 of 208)
Hey, maybe those missing pages from DH fell out of the Epilogue.

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Allison R - Jul 25, 2007 11:38 am (#89 of 208)
Imagine how thrilled Grandad Weasely will be to examine Ron and Hermione's muggle car!! I can hear the conversation now:

"Oh, I know it's a three hour-drive each way but think of all the fresh air and scenery you and the children will get to experience along the way, Ron! Don't use the Floo network to come visit-- just drive over!!"

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Ladybug220 - Jul 25, 2007 12:12 pm (#90 of 208)
I liked the epilogue but I do wish we had heard what happened to George, Luna, Dean, (more about) Neville and the other minor characters. And I loved Albus Severus - such a great name. Sigh, I can't believe the series is over, but there is the encyclopedia to look forward to now.

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Geber - Jul 25, 2007 1:01 pm (#91 of 208)
NFla Barbara, I think you're right about Hermione, and by extension, Ron, being involved with the muggle world. Hermione's founding of SPEW, plus Scrimgeour's jab about her going into magical law as a career, makes me think she is probably some kind of negotiator or mediator between the wizarding world and everyone else. I could see her proposing that goblins let buyers pass on purchases to whomever they please, in return for goblins being allowed wands.

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Pamzter - Jul 25, 2007 4:05 pm (#92 of 208)
The driver's licenses put me in mind of their adventures in the Ford Anglia in earlier years. I also imagine it had to do with Ron's muggle in-laws. Or maybe Ron has joined the Ministry of Magic's department of Muggle Artifacts (I think that's what it was called).

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2BMcsmom - Jul 25, 2007 4:42 pm (#93 of 208)
Jo has said somewhere that she does not plan to write any more books about HP but that she would not say that she never would.(something along that line.)

So I look at the epilogue not being more complete as a way for Jo to write more about the wizarding world should she chose to. This way her books do not have to center around Harry. Luna, George, or even someone new could be the main character with little if any mention of Harry. Any thing else that she decides to write about this wonderful world she created, I will gladly waiting to read.

I have not been able to do a reread yet. Other than the name origins, is there any other reason that Victoire is Bill and Fleur's daughter. I mean does it say for sure? A friend of mine likes to think of Victoire as being Dudley's daughter. It does make you wonder how Petunia and Vernon would react to a magical grandchild.

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Choices - Jul 25, 2007 4:58 pm (#94 of 208)
I think it is highly likely that Victoire is Bill and Fleur's daughter. The name is French and so is Fleur. If she were Dudley's daughter, I think we would have been told that she was, as it would have been rather noteworthy. I just can't fathom "Big D" naming his daughter, Victoire.

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Allison R - Jul 25, 2007 5:05 pm (#95 of 208)
Think of the possibilities if Dudley did have a magical child! Pet would recognize the signs long before Dudley did, because of her experience growing up with Lily. What a personal delima that would be for her, torn between the thing she loves the most (Dudley) and the thing she loathes the most (the magical world). That would be a very interesting story to read, indeed!

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Madam Pince - Jul 25, 2007 7:42 pm (#96 of 208)
Oh I feel a fan-fiction coming on! Can you picture Grandpa Vernon dandling the grandchild on his knee, and the kid burps slugs on him or bounces all the way to the ceiling or something? Too funny!

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Potteraholic - Jul 25, 2007 7:46 pm (#97 of 208)
I'll echo what many others have already said about the Epilogue not having enough info. about other characters: George, Luna, Dean, McGonagall, Hagrid, Bill, the Malfoys, Kreacher, and even the Dursleys. I, too wanted to know about everyone's jobs, not just Neville's.

But the most satisfying part of this chapter for me was Harry's talk on the 9 3/4 platform with Albus Severus, which BTW, I thought was the best name ever for his second son. That scene was very poignant and it really made my heart ache for the 11 year-old Harry who didn't have this kind of loving send-off when he first went to Hogwarts. I was just so proud of the attentive and loving father that Harry grew up to be and was so happy that he appreciated all that Severus did for him.

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totyle - Jul 25, 2007 8:05 pm (#98 of 208)
Potterholic..same thoughts were for 11 year old Harry in my mind too...also it made me wonder if his kids knew all that Harry/Ron/Hr had gone through in Hogwarts..say when Mum!Ginny admonishes them for taking their comfort for granted would they be like...oh no..not that old story about how Dad defeated Voldy again...weve heard it so many times...or did Dad really sleep under the stairs..oh how cool...could we???!! In that scene Albus and Rose wonder why everyone stares..I thought theyd have been used to it by then..Im sure Harry attracted attention all throughout his grown up life just like when he was a kid. I loved the bit where Ron says..theyre staring at him..coz he's famous!

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Madam Pince - Jul 25, 2007 8:31 pm (#99 of 208)
I wondered if that part where Al asks "Why are they all staring?" was JKR's little nod to her daughter Jessica, who probably asked that question of her mom all the time...

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NFla Barbara - Jul 25, 2007 8:37 pm (#100 of 208)
Good idea, Madame Pince!

We really get the idea at the end of DH that Harry is not going to seek any job in the public eye (he has had enough trouble for a lifetime)...JKR has said this week that he goes back to Hogwarts to teach an occasional DADA class, so we know from that he is not there full-time...so it is not implausible that his children know something of his history, but haven't been put in a lot of situations where people were pointing and staring.

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[Mona]

Muggle at large - Jul 25, 2007 10:27 pm (#101 of 208)
In regard to Harry being related to Slytherin, as discussed earlier in the thread, the Peverell brothers and Slytherin were not necessarily directly related. Gaunt shows the ring to Ogden to prove he is descended from the Peverells. He shows Ogden the locket to prove he is also descended from Slytherin, the two could be two lines could easily have been converged long after the time of Slytherin or the Peverell brothers.

As far as I can recall, no one ever asserts in cannon that the ring was Slytherins, only that the locket was. I may be wrong about this, if so, I feel certain someone will be sure to point this out to me.

M@L

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Muggle at large - Jul 26, 2007 1:25 am (#102 of 208)
I've just reread my post and realized I am guilty of poor editing. The last sentence of the first paragraph should read:

He shows Ogden the locket to prove he is also descended from Slytherin. The two lines could easily have converged long after the time of Slytherin or the Peverell brothers.

Oops.

M@L

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So Sirius - Jul 26, 2007 4:52 am (#103 of 208)
A.S.P.

Albus Severus Potter, the middle son of Harry and Ginny just happens to have initials that spell out Asp, a very deadly snake. It's also poignant in the epilogue that he's very concerned whether or not he'll end up in Slytherin. Is this just interesting, in a moral way or to show it's choices that make us who we are or that he's more like Harry and how as Harry lives, so does the circle of life or does this possibly imply that she wants to leave room for something, should she be inclined to ever write this way again? Did little Al show a propensity to following in the line of his other ancestors? Did little James and even little Albus notice he's a little different? Jo says the series is done, just an encyclopedia left for her regarding this series, but that's a huge door left open, just in case, I think.

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Chemyst - Jul 26, 2007 5:11 am (#104 of 208)
also it made me wonder if his kids knew all that Harry/Ron/Hr had gone through in Hogwarts - totyle

There are two clues about this and I think they add up to "some, but not all." First, when James is teasing little brother Al about thestrals, it is evident that these animals are still invisible to both children. While it is true that all that "proves" is that they have not seen death personally, I think it is intended as a metaphor that they don't know the gory details of what their dad did and are still relatively innocent about life. Secondly, when Harry reassures Al about the sorting hat's ability to take your choice into account, we get a direct quote, "He had never told any of his children that before?" So clearly there are at least a few things he has not told them.

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Magic Words - Jul 26, 2007 7:44 am (#105 of 208)
I find it hard to believe Harry's children wouldn't know at least the basics about their father being famous. Maybe the "why is everyone staring" comment simply shows that they've underestimated its importance a little. Or it could even be an expression of exasperation--"why won't everyone stop staring at us for once!" I was happy to see Ron make a joke of it; time was when he would have gotten jealous and a little angry at Harry when someone called attention to Harry's fame.

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So Sirius - Jul 26, 2007 9:03 am (#106 of 208)
My impression of that question by the kid, was that they've been sheltered from Harry's fame. Perhaps they've been living in a secluded or sheltered environment, mostly or only surrounded by those who wouldn't make a big deal of it all. The kids will learn the same way Harry did... until then, why make them feel different or special.

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Choices - Jul 26, 2007 12:42 pm (#107 of 208)
I am curious as to why JKR chose 19 years later. What is the significance about 19? Why not 10 years or 20 years?

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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 26, 2007 12:50 pm (#108 of 208)
Choices, it is a mathematical and alchemical metaphor in the sense that 1+9 = 10, ten is number of the Ouroboros.

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Sparrowhawk - Jul 26, 2007 12:56 pm (#109 of 208)
Also, aren't we forgetting here that the wizarding community is but a small minority in a mainly Muggle world? Therefore, it is easily understandable that Harry's kids wouldn't be used to seeing so many people in the same place staring at their father. Before going to Hogwarts, they must have spent most of their time surrounded by people who didn't know how famous Harry was (the Muggles), or if they did wouldn't stare at him all the time because they were relatives and saw him on a regular basis (the Weasleys, for instance)...

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Choices - Jul 26, 2007 1:03 pm (#110 of 208)
Duh! You're right, Nathan. Thanks. Wrackspurt has invaded my brain - too much to think about has clouded my thinking.

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Oruma - Jul 27, 2007 1:14 am (#111 of 208)
Kelvin Corbett:

...I can't imagine (Hermione) would hold any bitterness against Lavender after she had become a werewolf...


hmm, I believe that Hermione blasted Greyback off Lavender BEFORE he bit her(re-read required)...and even if Lav-Lav WAS bitten, Greyback wasn't transformed at the time so she'd at most become very interested in rare steaks (like Bill) but not a true werewolf.

Wolfgrl:
...and Scorpius and ASP were to become the best of friends...And the next generation of the Mauraders is born...Sting, Viper, _____and_____.


Great idea, in fact I've already worked it out: Webs (for a spider-themed name) and Legs (a centipede-related name needed) would work pretty well! Definitely great Fanfic stuff

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Kevin Corbett - Jul 28, 2007 10:56 pm (#112 of 208)
I thought Greyback was transformed. Hmmm...then again, maybe he wouldn't be able to tell the difference between friend and foe if he was. But I can't think of any mention of the full moon.

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Kevin Corbett - Jul 28, 2007 11:09 pm (#113 of 208)
I have examined the pertinent text:

"Two bodies fell from the balcony overhead as they reached the ground, and a gray blur that Harry took for an animal sped four-legged across the hall to sink its teeth into one of the children.

'NO!' shrieked Hermione, and with a deafening blast from her wand, Fenrir Greyback was thrown backward from the feebly stirring body of Lavender Brown." (Ch. 32, p. 646)

I think we are to take it then that Greyback was transformed. If he was acting wolfish while untransformed, I imagine he would have been wearing Death Eater robes and would have been a black blur instead of a gray blur.

As for whether or not he managed to bite Lavender, I'm not quite sure. The text is a little ambiguous, but I would tend to lean toward your interpretation that Hermione got him before he transformed.

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Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 29, 2007 5:53 am (#114 of 208)
Does the picture on the back of the UK children's edition have a full moon? I will have to check.

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Mrs Brisbee - Jul 29, 2007 6:40 am (#115 of 208)
Lupin wasn't in wolf form, so I think it cannot have been a full moon.

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Geber - Jul 29, 2007 10:57 am (#116 of 208)
Mrs. Brisbee, in the past Lupin used a potion to keep himself from transforming, so it is possible the moon was full. JKR has become more careful about calendars; in early books, she might have told us the exact date of the battle, and we could look up whether the moon was full. But in the later books she has avoided mentioning exact dates, so she doesn't have to worry about readers checking up on points like this.

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Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 29, 2007 11:00 am (#117 of 208)
I don't think the potion stops a werewolf transforming, but that it just stops them becoming murderous with the transformation.

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Choices - Jul 29, 2007 11:08 am (#118 of 208)
I agree, Phelim. Lupin would have transformed into a harmless wolf if he had been taking his potion - which I'm sure he would have been careful about with Tonks and the baby.

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Kevin Corbett - Jul 29, 2007 2:05 pm (#119 of 208)
Still, if it is not the full moon, then why is Greyback a gray blur, not a black? One could attribute his running on all fours to his emulating his transformed self, but his grayness still puzzles me if he is not supposed to be transformed. Perhaps the moon simply wasn't showing when Lupin was on stage...er, though maybe it only works like that in the movies...

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SarcasticGinny - Jul 29, 2007 6:07 pm (#120 of 208)
I figured Greyback was a grew werewolf. Hence his name.

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Oruma - Jul 30, 2007 12:45 am (#121 of 208)
Or simply: he's a grey blur because his robes were grey, or threadbare to fading colors.

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Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 30, 2007 2:37 am (#122 of 208)
On rereading I notice that Harry thinks he hears Percy in the background sounding off about broomsticks. So we now know that while Percy had a change of heart he didn't have a change of character. I just hope he was allowed to choose the punishments for those who willingly helped Voldemort (like Umbridge), those who put power and rules above truth. Either that or made editor in chief of the Daily Prophet - Rita Skeeter would have had problems then!!

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Madame Pomfrey - Jul 30, 2007 5:47 am (#123 of 208)
But,wasn't Lupin already dead when Greyback attacked Lavender? I don't know about the W.W.,but in movies usually when a werewolf is mortally wounded he switches back to human form.If Lupin was already dead when and if the moon came out he wouldn't have transformed anyway.My take on it was tht Greyback had transformed (grey blur,running on 4 legs)and did bite Lavender.She was described as feebly stirring.It sounds to me like she was attacked.

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Kevin Corbett - Jul 30, 2007 1:40 pm (#124 of 208)
But I think Lavender had just fallen off the balcony, so she might have been a bit feebler than usual from that.

As for Greyback wearing gray robes---for one, he wore DE robes during the attack of Hogwarts in HBP, and I imagine he probably relished the opportunity to wear them whenever he got the chance, seeing as he wasn't branded with the dark mark. Now that I think about it, there was another way in which Voldys prejudices worked his downfall---if he had branded Greyback, he would have easily been able to kill Harry when he was caught be the Snatchers.

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Madame Pomfrey - Jul 30, 2007 3:01 pm (#125 of 208)
I missed Lavender falling. I thought that Grayback fell from the balcony and attacked her.Sounds like I need to do a reread.

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Luna Logic - Aug 1, 2007 4:52 am (#126 of 208)
I think it is not Lavender who felt from the balcony. Greyback is described going across the hall "to" a children.

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Columbine Fairy - Aug 1, 2007 1:44 pm (#127 of 208)
Edited Aug 1, 2007 3:41 pm
Hello! I have finally finished and found access to a computer and I can start discussing!!

So forgive me if I repeat something, but this concept bothered me as well. If it was the full moon, wouldnt Lupin have taken his potion hours previously, and so would have been curled up asleep somewhere? It certainly sounded to me like Greyback was transformed at the time.

Also, I think he was described to be running towards "fallen forms", so Lavender would have already been lying on the ground when he got to her. On that, I thought it was nice that it was Hermione that blasted him off her too. Lavender wasn't exactly her favourite person the year before!!

Edit: Also, I would have liked a bit more info on what happened to everyone else, how many more books were written about Harry, how many of Hermione's future discoveries saved the world from something... but on the other hand, it gives Jo something else to write about, doesn't it...please Jo????

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Weeny Owl - Aug 2, 2007 6:35 am (#128 of 208)
Perhaps Greyback is not only a werewolf but also a wolf Animagus.

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Madame Pomfrey - Aug 2, 2007 8:32 am (#129 of 208)
I hadn't considered that,Weeny..*Nice to see you,BTW* Dumbledore made a statement on the tower that Grayback no longer waited for a full moon to attack.His being described as a 4 legged gray blur either from transformation by moon or self induced(animagus) sounds likely. If Lupin was already dead when the moon came out he wouldn't have transformed.When Harry went to the forrest the atmosphere was described as pitch black.No moon or star light mentioned,which could mean it was a cloudy night.I am thinking that maybe the clouds dispersed later,revealing a moon.Although Grayback transformed,Lupin couldn't have.He was already dead.

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Weeny Owl - Aug 2, 2007 9:18 pm (#130 of 208)
Nice to see you too, Madame Pomfrey.

That's a question someone somewhere will have to ask JKR when she decides to give us more answers. I'm curious myself as to what Greback was that night, and if Lavender is affected the way Bill is or if she's really now a werewolf.

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Madame Pomfrey - Aug 3, 2007 7:58 am (#131 of 208)
Me too! I hope after Jo has had a long well deserved break,I hope she will consider writing about the aftermath,what happened to everyone,how the trio helped to make changes at the Ministry and especially Harry's adventures as an auror.I just don't want it to be over.*sigh*

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Caput Draconis - Aug 6, 2007 3:29 am (#132 of 208)
I read this over breakfast this morning, an article from The Daily Telegraph:

_____________________________

Potter loses magic at end

By Kirsten Reim* August 06, 2007 12:00am

THE much anticipated saga of Harry Potter has closed (until the release of the next film) and by now most of those souls who lined up to buy their precious copy will have finished the tome. But I wonder how many of these Harry Potter fans were as disillusioned as I was with the epilogue.

It is a source of disappointment that I was not able to say goodbye to the characters I liked, and sometimes disliked or questioned, rather than having an overly sentimental, saccharine and generally contrived ending thrust upon me.

So much of what JK Rowling had written up to that point had valid emotional content, but the epilogue left me cold. Precisely what were Rowling and her editors thinking when they agreed to publish the epilogue?

The end of the thirty-sixth chapter would have sufficed. Minus the epilogue, it was a realistic ending, true to the form and voice of the characters established over the series.

More importantly, the stitched-on epilogue left Rowling talking down to her readers, assuming that they could not make their own decisions in regard to the future of the surviving characters. It is an insult to those very people who queued and pre-ordered, and waited and speculated. To have that future dictated to them has no point, unless it leaves the door open to Rowling for the next franchise she intends to create.

It is the limitation of the writing that really shines through in the epilogue and it is the first hint that perhaps the imagination of Rowling is not as fertile as once thought.

Her characters become as simplistic and two dimensional as the writing has been throughout the series. It is both disturbing and startling that Rowling has created a literary phenomenon that has almost no literary merit.

I can't help but feel ripped off that there is so much challenging, interesting, fantastically written fiction for teens that is going unnoticed - in part due to Harry Potter. Unfortunately the tales of the boy wizard have become some form of yardstick, in that some people will only read this one particular book all year - and while that may be better than nothing, there is so much better material to which young readers could be exposed.

So enjoy Harry Potter, but when you surface from the depths of it, remember to keep reading, and find some of the many treasures that exist for readers of all ages. (I can recommend a few!)

* Kirsten Reim is the head of library and information services at MLC Burwood.

______________________

I thought it was interesting that a (relatively) mainstream article was written to discuss this, especially because of all the fandom debate about its merits.

The journo seems to have let her disappointment with the epilogue skew her view of book, series and author, which is a little harsh, I think....the Nineteen Years Later thing didn't really do much for me either, but I certainly didn't feel like JKR was 'talking down to me'. She has the right to dictate how her own characters' future plays out. It also seems like a bit of a leap to go from 'I didn't like the epilogue' to 'a literary phenomonen that has almost no literary merit.'

Hmmm. Anyone else feel insulted? I still think Albus Severus is wicked cool, btw.

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Esther Rose - Aug 6, 2007 7:14 am (#133 of 208)
My thought here is. It is JKRs book. She can do what she wants with it.

Personally, I liked the epilogue. I liked seeing how things have changed and have come full circle at the same time. It looks cheesy only because things are "normal" and that is exactly what Harry wanted all along.

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Steve Newton - Aug 6, 2007 9:08 am (#134 of 208)
Of course its JKR's book. That doesn't mean that we are not to be critical.

I thought that the epilogue was weak but not terrible.

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TomProffitt - Aug 6, 2007 9:29 am (#135 of 208)
I like the epilogue, when I compare it to the appendixes of The Lord of the Rings it works rather well. The main plot of The Lord of the Rings ends with the destruction of the one ring, but JRRT gives us another half dozen chapters to wind everything down plus a large appendix I never read.

JKR gave us what we needed to complete the story line and see the completed growth of Harry in his greeting to Draco and the name of his second son. Anything more may have been satisfying to the die hard fan, but of limited value to the actual story.

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Columbine Fairy - Aug 6, 2007 12:20 pm (#136 of 208)
Rowling's imagination is not as fertile as once thought???????

I didn't like the epilogue much, I thought it was a bit soppy, but it certainly didn't spoil my enjoyment of the rest of the book. I think this Kirsten Reim is being incredibly harsh. There may be a lot of teenage fiction going unnoticed, but a lot more is being noticed now because Harry Potter is getting kids reading again.

Personally, (and as a fellow journo) I give no credit to something that contradicts itself in the same piece: "up to that point it had valid emotional content" and then "as simplistic and two dimensional as the writing has been throughout the series". Come on, Kristen. If you don't like it, fine, but don't force your whinging on the rest of us. Personally, I think the sales speak for themselves - it can't be as bad as you say it is.

She gives herself away as a non-potter fan, I think, by saying she wants to imagine what happened to the characters after the book. Is there a true potterfan out there who doesn't want to know what happened to exactly every character, who they married, what career they had and whether or not Molly every let Arthur tinker with his muggle contraptions? Speak now if I'm wrong....!

ps. Thanks for posting that CD - it's been a long day, it was nice to vent my spleen a little at someone else...

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Chemyst - Aug 6, 2007 2:33 pm (#137 of 208)
It was called the Epilogue and not Chapter 37, so for me the story did end with chapter 36, just like Kirsten Reim said it should have.

In a post-release interview JKR said she wanted the station to be foggy so we'd get the idea that there were other people there and we didn't see everything. That struck me as odd; like wrapping only half of a package. I'd rather have been shown than told "all was well."

Harry's conversation with Albus Severus was right on the mark but Steve nailed the rest with his description, "weak but not terrible." If I had been JKR's editor, I'd have suggested she end the book with an updated Family Tapestry instead, but I don't think she would have gone for it. I think she wanted King's Cross too badly.

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Madame Pomfrey - Aug 8, 2007 9:43 am (#138 of 208)
I don't know.I felt it was only ok.But,after reading the climax of the book anything written afterward would pale in comparison. Chemyst mentioned that JKR said she wanted the station to be foggy so we'd get the idea that there were other people there and we didn't see everything. I thought this was strange too.Perhaps she didn't want us to see everything because she has plans later.The epilogue is written 19 years later.Why even do this? Why not just write a list of the surviving charactors and write what had become of them? I think she did this so if she changes her mind about writing more H.P. she has plenty of years to catch up on.Once when asked if she would right more on Harry she answered something like "Never say never." I am going to hold on to this thought.

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James Greenfield - Aug 12, 2007 11:37 pm (#139 of 208)
My guess is that the Epilogue is the "last bit" that JKR has carried around and protected for several years. The style of the writing is much more like that of the first two books in the series. I think she improved her style of writing over the years, but when it came to this part, she merely updated what she had written long ago, so that it agreed with rest of the story as finally worked out.

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Muggle Doctor - Aug 15, 2007 8:03 am (#140 of 208)
My guess is that the Epilogue is the "last bit" that JKR has carried around and protected for several years. The style of the writing is much more like that of the first two books in the series

And how fitting it is, in that respect, to have the story turn full-circle and be told in the old-fashioned way once again. Not with the war about to loom on the horizon again, but with the new generation beginning school (a Potter child, a Weasley child and a Malfoy child all starting in the same year) in a time of peace.

The epilogue is about Harry's growth as a person, the achievement of the one dream that really mattered to him (love and happiness with a family) and his ability to leave his animosity (at Snape, at Draco and at Slytherin House in general) behind him. That, to me, was enough. No more needed to be said; we can all wait for this blessed encyclopaedia JKR is promising, in which (I hope) all the unused back-stories will be revealed.

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Luna Logic - Aug 15, 2007 8:34 am (#141 of 208)
Edited by Aug 15, 2007 10:10 am
I didn't like at all the epilogue during my first reading of the book, I was waiting for other things.
But, in my second (whole) reading, I thought it was fitting very well with the book and the series. I agree totally with Muggle Doctor : we have then the achievement of "Harry's Journey", and of the seven Books which are he seven books of Harry's Journey.

Harry's Journey: The deep concern of Harry was about having a family of his own, and friends (It was not about a career). The most exciting event of his life was (IMO) his departure to Hogwarts by the Poudlard express, and the meeting of his true friends there. His greatest fear was to be sorted in Slytherin, as we see in his dreams during some time (Book One).

In the Epilogue (IMO) Harry is thinking about that again, because Al, the child who is the most like him, is going to take that same train for the first time, and perhaps has the same questions. Thus the Epilogue is about friends and sorting, and about how Harry has all the persons who are important to him, next to him, on the platform. He is not alone this time, and his children are not alone in that journey. So, really, all is well for him (and for me, now!).

edited : Muggle Doctor: and his ability to leave his animosity (at Snape, at Draco and at Slytherin House in general) behind him. Very true: That day is perhaps the final achievement of Harry's Journey, because to make it through he had to "leave his animosity" behind.

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Phelim Mcintyre - Aug 16, 2007 4:23 am (#142 of 208)
On the Sting, Viper next generation marauder idea, I've started something on the fan fiction thread. Its an idea that grew its own story.

I agree that the Epilogue feels very Philosopher's/Sorcerer's Stone like. I had never thought of that.

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M A Grimmett - Aug 16, 2007 5:49 am (#143 of 208)
What's the Poulard express?

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Wanda - Aug 16, 2007 6:29 am (#144 of 208)
Poulard is the French name for Hogwarts.

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Luna Logic - Aug 16, 2007 11:45 am (#145 of 208)
Sorry, everybody! My (French) tongue slipped again: the Poudlard express of my post #141 is, as Wanda says, the Hogwarts express!

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Choices - Aug 17, 2007 8:58 am (#146 of 208)
I liked this Epilogue. I liked that things are back to normal in the Wizarding world - families are living in peace and harmony, no longer fearful. I can just picture Harry surveying it all and saying softly to himself, "I love magic." Enjoy the rest of your life, Harry!

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Orion - Aug 19, 2007 8:27 am (#147 of 208)
Albus Severus Potter, oh dear, so he's white, and strict, and good with ceramics? His classmates are gonna make m i n c e m e a t of him...

I must admit that I self-spoilered DH for me by reading the epilogue first, because couldn't face tearing through the book only rushing to the end because I wanted to know who's dying. So, knowing who died and who didn't made reading very enjoyable. I didn't know Fred and Lupin were going to die. SOB.

Does someone perhaps have a plan for a worldwide movement to get Mrs Rowling to write another book? I read something about an online petition, does anybody know about it? I feel bereft now it's over.

If Harry isn't an descendant of Salazar, I am severely disappointed. It probably sounds pubescent, but being a Parselmouth is about the coolest affliction imaginable.

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Xenophilius - Aug 19, 2007 8:39 am (#148 of 208)
Orion - You may want to check out Rowling's webchat of July 30. You can find it on Accio Quote.

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Choices - Aug 19, 2007 9:04 am (#149 of 208)
Orion - "Albus Severus Potter, oh dear, so he's white, and strict, and good with ceramics? His classmates are gonna make m i n c e m e a t of him..."

I think you are forgetting that Albus will be going to school with a kid named Scorpius. It is not unusual for magical kids to have "different" names - Draco, Sirius, Regulus, Severus, Hepzibah, Mundungus, Nymphadora, Narcissa, Bellatrix, Horace, Minerva, Amycus, Alecto, ect. None of those are exactly common names. I think Albus Severus will fit right in.

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Joanna Lupin - Aug 19, 2007 9:26 am (#150 of 208)
On my first read I was disappointed in the epilogue. Probably because I was so sorry to see the end. My edition has 605 pages (Blumsbury adult edition) and I kept hearing it would be 700 pages so I felt cheated and depressed. Now, having finished my fourth read through I find that I like the epilogue more and more every time I read it. It seems so fitting to let Harry have his ultimate reward after all he's been through. The children are just sweet - James - a rule-braker and joker, like his grandpa, Albus Severus - sensitive like his father, and Lily who is a reflection of her loving grandma - Harry has achieved his heart's deepest desire, what value might have his profession? It is a family he craved and now he has it. Good for you, Harry.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

[Mona]

Orion - Aug 19, 2007 9:26 am (#151 of 208)
I very much hope so for the poor boy. If he takes after his grandfather, he will be the biggest bully in the playground anyway.

I was just wondering whether Mrs Rowling made it up as she went along or whether she had a detailed plan of the whole thing beforehand. Because: in childrens' books, the characters often have telling names, and Severus is a very telling name, as he is indeed very strict. But: How could his parents know that? In an childrens' book, we aren't supposed about such trivialities. The HP series, however, turned out to be much more than that, and became more and more realistic. Suddenly these overtly telling names aren't sincere anymore. Please tell me when I'm talking rubbish. I just cleanse my head.

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Choices - Aug 19, 2007 9:35 am (#152 of 208)
I see more in Severus than just that he is strict or severe. I see the name as Sever-us because Snape sets himself apart to do his spying. He severs his ties with the good guys to hang out with the DE's and Voldemort to spy on them for Dumbledore. He pretty much is a loner, set apart by the role he plays.

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Orion - Aug 23, 2007 3:16 am (#153 of 208)
Hi Choices, that's a beautiful interpretation! How about founding an "Over-Interpreters Anonymous"-club together?

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Choices - Aug 23, 2007 8:39 am (#154 of 208)
Sign me up, Orion. :-)

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Phelim Mcintyre - Aug 24, 2007 1:15 am (#155 of 208)
Choices, Orion - I think that may be an alternative name for the Lexicon Forum. Most of us need to join OIN.

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Choices - Aug 24, 2007 9:13 am (#156 of 208)
Thanks for that reminder, Phelim. Yea, we're already signed up. :-)

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Orion - Sep 16, 2007 3:39 am (#157 of 208)
All of the names of Harry's children make me angry bacause, as someone has already pointed out, they all refer to Harry's own history. It's so patriarchal. Ginny lets him take over totally.

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Joanna Lupin - Sep 16, 2007 4:44 am (#158 of 208)
I think Ginny understands how important James and Lily are to Harry, parents he had never known. Albus and Severus, I don't think it is entirely Harry's story. Ginny was a member of Dumbledore's Army, too, after all. As to Severus, I think that by naming his son thus Harry wanted to honour Snape's love for Lily.

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Mrs Brisbee - Sep 16, 2007 12:25 pm (#159 of 208)
I get what Orion is saying, I think. I would have liked to have a sense that Ginny and Harry were in this marriage together, and that their children were both of theirs, not just a tribute to Harry's past. I can imagine the names are James Sirius, Lily Hedwig, and Albus Severus, and that a fourth child will be named Dobby Kreature! Actually, I hope Sirius does figure in their somewhere, because it would be sad to think that his name was thrown aside for Snape's. But really, the names were too much. Why not Fabian to honor Ginny's family? He seems to have died childless if Molly got his watch.

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Holly T. - Sep 16, 2007 4:39 pm (#160 of 208)
I don't think it's patriarchal. Ginny has a family. Harry doesn't. When they have kids together, Harry finally has a family. It is much more important for him to honor the family he has lost. Ginny, because she loves him, is ok with that.

My son is named after my husband's great-grandfather and his grandfather. These were important people to him and it was important to my husband to honor them, much more important than it was for me to honor someone from my family.

Ginny has lots of brothers who can honor Fred, Arthur, Fabian, and Molly with their kids.

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Choices - Sep 16, 2007 5:01 pm (#161 of 208)
I think Molly honored her slain brothers when she named Fred and George - they have the same first initials. I have always wondered if Molly's brothers were twins.

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Thom Matheson - Sep 17, 2007 5:44 am (#162 of 208)
Who do you think picked out the names between Ron and Hermione?

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Mrs Brisbee - Sep 17, 2007 6:28 am (#163 of 208)
I think R&H came up with R&H together. It's cute. Although Hugo Weasley reminds me of Hugo Weaving. A little red-haired Elrond.

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Thom Matheson - Sep 17, 2007 6:34 am (#164 of 208)
I see it as Hermione saying "won't that be great", and Ron saying "Yes Dear".

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PeskyPixie - Oct 3, 2007 12:33 pm (#165 of 208)
There is talk on the 'Epilogue poll' thread that the epilogue is written in the same style as the first few books of the series. I honestly don't see that. I love the first three books; the writing is far more crisp and fresh than that of the epilogue.

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wynnleaf - Oct 4, 2007 5:25 am (#166 of 208)
Actually PeskyPixie, I agree with you. But I think that she did write the epilogue at about the same time as the first book. I think one reason that the epilogue seems, frankly, so trite and superficial in many ways is that it follows so much development of many characters. I think we can be certain that any author, over thousands of pages, was going to have characters develop in ways that they perhaps didn't foresee. And the epilogue didn't reflect that.

Additionally, there was the sudden addition of all these new characters, who the readers didn't know at all, suddenly taking center stage of the dialogue. The reader had to sort out who was who, and within just a few paragraphs get a grasp on completely new characters. How are we really supposed to care about these new characters in such a brief space of time? We don't really, at least not much. We care about what happened to the characters we know and love. So adding in all the kids made it a bit difficult for many (certainly not all) to connect well with the epilogue.

And last, I think many readers felt the need for a stronger resolution to some of the tensions of the series. Most especially, many felt the ongoing, and thoroughly developed enmity between Harry and Snape was never resolved on the page. That is, the reader never was shown Harry moving through a change of heart or change of mind. We learn about it after the fact. I think many were hoping that at least by the epilogue there'd be a bit of reflection by Harry or the narration which would give resolution and it didn't happen.

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Mrs. Sirius - Oct 4, 2007 6:53 am (#167 of 208)
Very astute wynnleaf. The only place I take issue is the Harry-Snape resolution. That one line

"Albus Severus...he was probably the bravest man I ever knew" HP p. 758

to me was sufficient to show Harry had worked through and resolved any enmity, bitterness. The naming of one's child being so important I can't imagine naming ones child for someone for someone you have unresolved hostility.

The relationship that did seem resolved was Harry-Ginny. Harry spent a year where he doesn't see the woman with whom he had feelings, when he does see her he is so busy he barely has emotional time for her. She was just background without substances. (But wait until you see my essay on that!)

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PeskyPixie - Oct 4, 2007 7:19 am (#168 of 208)
The reason that 'Albus Severus' isn't enough for me is because, in the words of JKR herself, 'Harry-Snape is now as personal, if not more so, than Harry-Voldemort'. I just needed a bit more, not even a conversation between the two.

As Harry goes to the headmaster's office after defeating LV he thinks, 'Happiness would come, but at the moment ..., the pain of losing Fred and Lupin and Tonks pierced him like a physical wound every few steps.' If this sentence, or train of thought would just mention how the shock of learning Snape's love for his mother, or his true identity, would need time to sink in and he is too numb and exhausted to know how to feel about it at the time, it would be enough for me. The tension between the two characters is built up to such a level that a line or two are necessary to acknowledge it after Snape's death (before it is resolved in the epilogue), in my opinion.

Or else, before leaving the Great Hall Harry might have mentioned to McGonagall that Snape is lying dead in a pool of his own blood in the Shrieking Shack, and that someone should fetch him. I think Snape is important enough and in need of acknowledgement after losing his life in the Battle of Hogwarts. And it is a typical Harryish thing to do.

I agree with with wynnleaf's post. It's weird to see these kids we've embraced for this saga as parents ... almost like seeing Peter Pan grow up. I'd rather have an appendix, like 'Lord of the Rings', than this particular epilogue. But, I suppose Jo's encyclopaedia will serve that purpose.

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NFla Barbara - Oct 4, 2007 7:26 am (#169 of 208)
I think there are just two "camps" on this -- those for whom that line in the epilogue is enough, and those for whom it isn't. I think the ones who want more understand that some of us think "the bravest man I ever knew" is enough, but there is no talking around it (we have tried!) -- it either works for you or it doesn't.

Despite the fact that the line "worked" for me, I have to admit that the ending would have been more satisfying with something like the line PestyPixie suggested -- Harry telling McGonagall that Professor Snape was dead.

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Mrs Brisbee - Oct 4, 2007 7:43 am (#170 of 208)
I certainly would have preferred Harry seeing to it that Snape got a proper burial or a portrait in the Headmasters office rather than naming a son after him. At least then I could see Harry had developed a respect for the man, without the weirdness that Harry thought Snape so stellar his child must bear Snape's name. I'm not sure what sort of affection Harry grew for Snape during those nineteen years.

It's weird to see these kids we've embraced for this saga as parents ... almost like seeing Peter Pan grow up. -- PeskyPixie

One thing I've enjoyed about the Harry Potter saga is that we do get to see the kids grow in each book. I think it turned out to be an important theme, and that's why Rowling ended it with an epilogue that showed Harry had become a grown man with a family. Harry had accepted Death, but after dying and being given the choice, he chose to accept life. He is no longer stuck between the two as he had been the whole series, so the epilogue shows that he has moved forward. I do understand this aspect of Rowling's epilogue, although I generally don't care for epilogues and this one had its share of problems.

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PeskyPixie - Oct 4, 2007 7:49 am (#171 of 208)
One thing I've enjoyed about the Harry Potter saga is that we do get to see the kids grow in each book. I think it turned out to be an important theme, and that's why Rowling ended it with an epilogue that showed Harry had become a grown man with a family. Harry had accepted Death, but after dying and being given the choice, he chose to accept life. He is no longer stuck between the two as he had been the whole series, so the epilogue shows that he has moved forward. -Mrs. Brisbee

I agree with this. I did not intend to imply that Harry does not mature throughout the books by my 'Peter Pan' comment. I just wasn't ready to see the gang at almost forty years of age. Reading about it would've been enough for me.


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Choices - Oct 4, 2007 10:30 am (#172 of 208)
I'm with NFla Barbara - If you come to my house and you hear me say I'm going to make a cake and then later you come back and there is a big chocolate cake sitting on my counter, you correctly assume I made a cake. You don't need the details, the cake is proof enough. For me, the "Albus Severus" and the "bravest man I ever knew" comment are proof enough that Harry came to terms with his feelings about Snape. He understood and was satisfied with the outcome. That's all I need to know from canon - the rest I can resolve in my own imagination/mind.

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wynnleaf - Oct 4, 2007 10:33 am (#173 of 208)
I realize that the "bravest man I ever knew" comment and the "Albus Severus" name works for many people. However, by and large -- certainly not all -- most of the people that I've seen who felt this worked were people for whom the Harry-Snape enmity was not of nearly so much interest as a great many other aspects of the book.

The problem to me is that JKR intentionally built up that enmity and, as PeskyPixie pointed out, made it more "personal" even than Harry's enmity with Voldemort. Yet while she shows us the resolution between Harry and Voldemort, she doesn't show the resolution of Harry's feelings about Snape. When we learn of it in the epilogue, it's obviously something that Harry had resolved literally years before. As far as literary resolution goes, I think she could almost as easily have added a postscript that said, "And by the way, Harry forgave Snape, decided he was really brave, and named his second son after him." That provides the information, but it has no strong impact. In my opinion, the epilogue did more or less that same thing -- info with little impact.

Choices, suppose JKR had left out Harry's defeat of Voldemort, and we only learned about it in the epilogue. Would anyone have been satisfied? Absolutely not! We didn't just want the information that Harry defeated LV, we wanted to see it happen. Most people didn't want to just imagine it, even with some detailed info about it. We wanted to see it happen. Anything less wouldn't have been satisfying. In a similar way, a great many readers wanted to see Harry forgive Snape and see the how Harry's feelings about him changed.

In this case, the "chocolate cake" is in the eating. It does no good to bake a cake and tell me you did it and it tasted good. I want to taste it, not imagine it.

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PeskyPixie - Oct 4, 2007 11:11 am (#174 of 208)
I try to not to let personal feelings towards the HP characters and JKR get in the way of my analysis of DH (the Snape in me, I suppose); I examine it as a piece of literature. If one loves the epilogue because, in their opinion, it is a good piece of writing and a solid part of the architecture of the books, that's great. I respect that though I do not agree with it. However, it pains me when one feels that it is one's duty to like everything JKR writes, being a HP fan.

I don't feel 'disloyal' about voicing my criticisms on DH because all great art is criticized and appreciated. Many 'LOTR' reviews are practically one half criticism; it still does not take away from the brilliance of the creation. Beethoven is often given the edge over Mozart; that does not diminish Mozart's genius.

wynnleaf, I agree. I want at least a bite of the Snape cake (i.e. at least the acknowledgement I mentioned a couple of posts ago).

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NFla Barbara - Oct 4, 2007 12:20 pm (#175 of 208)
The real problem is that JKR gave us such a fun character with poor old Severus. She could have spread some of his actions around among other characters and still gotten Harry to the point where he needed to go (i.e. still standing after LV fell) -- but she created this wonderful bundle of contradictions and flaws in a single character with bat-like robes, curtains of greasy hair, and a tragic past.

Wynnleaf, I think I am reading all the same posts as you, and I don't think I would generalize that people who accepted "Albus Severus" are less interested in the Snape/Harry enmity than in other aspects of the book. In the overall scheme of the books, though, it is secondary to Harry's battle with LV. We know this, as alluded to in the last couple of posts, because we SEE his triumph over LV and we only hear about his resolution of the years of conflict with Snape. That's JKR's choice, not ours.

I actually think the Snape/Harry relationship is one of the MOST interesting things about the book. In the end, we knew LV had to be defeated. "Evil triumphs over good" is not a popular theme for epic novels. The big question was whether Harry would lose his own life in the process. So, in a way, the outcome of the final battle with LV ends up being a lot less interesting than the outcome for Harry and Snape. The series is still the story of Harry triumphing over evil -- and, as all us of Snape fans know, Snape wasn't evil. ; ) Or, to put it another way, Tom Riddle was always doomed; Severus Snape wasn't.

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PeskyPixie - Oct 4, 2007 12:26 pm (#176 of 208)
'...she created this wonderful bundle of contradictions and flaws in a single character with bat-like robes, curtains of greasy hair, and a tragic past.' -NFlaBarbara

That's so cute(!), and so true.

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Choices - Oct 4, 2007 4:54 pm (#177 of 208)
Once again I have to agree with NFla Barbara. For me the Snape/Harry conflict is perhaps the most intriguing aspect of these books, but the Harry/Voldemort conflict is definitely the primary subject. We did want to see the conflict between Harry/Voldemort at the end because it was a physical thing - one of them had to die. However, the conflict between Harry/Snape was a more psychological one - there was not going to be a physical battle between the two of them. It was going to be resolved in the mind - much more private. That is why, for me to hear Harry say how Snape was the bravest man he ever knew and name his son after Snape (and Dumbledore), it tells me that Harry did indeed resolve the conflict in his mind, privately, and has come to terms with it.

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wynnleaf - Oct 4, 2007 9:04 pm (#178 of 208)
Wynnleaf, I think I am reading all the same posts as you, and I don't think I would generalize that people who accepted "Albus Severus" are less interested in the Snape/Harry enmity than in other aspects of the book. In the overall scheme of the books, though, it is secondary to Harry's battle with LV. (NFLBarbara)

First, I wasn't really just talking about Forum posters, but over the fandom as a whole, of which I read a great deal.

As regards which is primary or secondary, Harry's conflict with LV or Snape, I think that's very, very debatable. Sure, the LV conflict is the big Wizarding World conflict. The scale of that conflict is bigger. But we actually see Harry and LV personally in conflict on very rare occasions. There's no personal chemistry to their enmity. They don't know each other. They rarely see each other. Yeah, LV killed James and Lily, but it's not like these are people Harry actually knew. Harry has to deal with LV because LV is going to try and kill him regardless.

In contrast, JKR devoted pages and pages and pages of personal interaction to the Harry and Snape conflict and even said after HBP that it was the more personal conflict.

So which enmity was the primary one is very much debatable. From the grand Heroic viewpoint, Harry versus LV was the primary. From the personal, character development viewpoint, Snape was far more important to Harry.

JKR resolved the Voldemort conflict on the page. With the Snape conflict, like telling someone you prepared them a birthday cake and it really tasted good and hope they can imagine how good it was, JKR didn't allow us to experience the resolution of Harry's conflict with Snape. Considering that she very arguably made that conflict at least as important as the Voldemort conflict, if not possibly more so, I personally consider that a failing of Deathly Hallows.

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Mrs. Sirius - Oct 4, 2007 9:32 pm (#179 of 208)
I don't think I would generalize that people who accepted "Albus Severus" are less interested in the Snape/Harry enmity than in other aspects of the book. NFla Barbara

I agree completely. In fact I take a rather different position in that in fact this story is actually the love story of Severus and Lily. The entire basis of this story, what holds this story together is Snapes love for Lily. In fact it is the central story. Only we are seeing it for the wrong side. A little bit like Rosencrantz and Gildenstern is the story of Hamlet.

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James Greenfield - Oct 4, 2007 11:53 pm (#180 of 208)
So, should we retitle the books?

Severus Snape and the Ungrateful Boy

Severus Snape and the Secret of Slytherin

Severus Snape and the Return of the Marauders

Severus Snape and the Unfair Contest

Severus Snape and the Secret Agent

Severus Snape and the Unbreakable Vows

Severus Snape and the Cost of Long-lost Love

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NFla Barbara - Oct 5, 2007 4:51 am (#181 of 208)
I love it. They sound like a bunch of serial titles from the 1930s and 40s.

I don't think your Book 7 title is dramatic enough yet, though. I will have to give some thought to that. ; )

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Mrs. Sirius - Oct 5, 2007 6:46 am (#182 of 208)
ROTF James, I love that! I think you really got the gist of it.

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PeskyPixie - Oct 5, 2007 7:31 am (#183 of 208)
As a Snape fan I would love to read those books! I've mentioned on another post that I would like to see the whole saga from Snape's perspective, similar to 'Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead'.

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Madam Pince - Oct 9, 2007 2:57 pm (#184 of 208)
Wynnleaf, once again I have to say... "Get out of my head!" LOL! You express so well the things that I am feeling also but can't quite verbalize. Actually I couldn't even really sort it out in my own brain why I was dissatisfied with the "resolution" of the Snape-Harry conflict. You're exactly right -- it's because it was resolved off-stage. We didn't get to taste the cake. I agree with your assessment 100%.

Thanks, yet again!

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PeskyPixie - Oct 10, 2007 9:56 am (#185 of 208)
'PeskyPixie agrees with Madam Pince and would like to add the Prof. Snape is an ugly git!' Sorry, after the first few words I just couldn't resist. It's one of my favourite parts in the entire series.

Seriously, if one looks near the end of OotP, Harry feels more anger towards Snape than towards Malfoy and knows that he'll never be able to forgive Snape (for causing Sirius's death ). This extreme enmity is built up over HBP, climaxing with Snape's 'murder' of DD. Some 'on-camera' acknowledgement, if not resolution, is necessary. I've mentioned in previous posts how this could be managed in a few lines without taking away from "Albus Severus" at the end.

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Mrs Brisbee - Oct 17, 2007 3:04 am (#186 of 208)
I've decided that little Lily's middle name must be Petunia. If Harry chose Severus as a middle name, then by the same criteria Petunia needs to be honored.

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Mrs. Sirius - Oct 17, 2007 8:53 am (#187 of 208)
Mrs. B are you saying Harry will acknowledge that his aunt permitted him into his house knowing the inherent danger to herself and her family is to be honored. Or that some how, because of Petunia's contact in her youth with Severus and her desire at that point to enter the wizarding world, she has shown courage?

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Mrs Brisbee - Oct 17, 2007 9:10 am (#188 of 208)
Harry noted in OotP that Petunia knew exactly what Voldemort being back meant, so that implies she knew just what danger to herself, her husband, and her only child she was risking when she took Harry in. If the criteria for names is bravery and protection, the abusive Petunia Dursley more than qualifies. So as long as Harry is honoring people who hated his guts, it makes sense to include Petunia. She does not even possess any magical powers to have defended herself against Voldemort, unlike the rest of the namesakes, so I could reasonably argue that she was the bravest of them all.

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PeskyPixie - Oct 17, 2007 9:32 am (#189 of 208)
As long as Harry could call 4 Privet Dr. home the protection DD placed on the house exists, protecting all inhabitants of it. With Harry gone Tuney and her family are no longer safe ... and yes, she knows the consequences of this quite well.

Perhaps she also does not want Harry to die because as much as she wishes to deny him he is the only remnant of the happy relationship she shared with her sister a long, long time ago.

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PeskyPixie - Oct 17, 2007 1:39 pm (#190 of 208)
It's funny, many people find the epilogue to be written in the same style as PS/SS, CoS and PoA, but I simply can not comprehend how. It seems to be in some pre-PS/SS style which I have not encountered in any of the books in the series.

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legolas returns - Oct 17, 2007 1:55 pm (#191 of 208)
I think stylistically its very similar.

Younger sibling on parents arm. Tearfull and desperate to go to school (Ginny and her daughter).

Albus scared that he was going to hit barrier. Harry had similar fear.

Older brother(s)-Craking jokes/teasing siblings/parents.

Fear of which house you will be placed in/discussion of which house you will be in. All students do this.

People staring at Harry

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PeskyPixie - Oct 17, 2007 2:01 pm (#192 of 208)
Yes, legolas, I understood the similar images. It's the writing style I find rather weak in the epilogue. Honestly, it reads like well-studied fan-fic IMO.

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legolas returns - Oct 17, 2007 2:06 pm (#193 of 208)
I thought that she had finished the epilogue before writing the whole thing so it was not as "polished" as the rest.

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Madam Pince - Oct 23, 2007 1:44 pm (#194 of 208)
I understood that as well, legolas. I think we were told that somewhere but I'm not sure exactly where. I still don't see why she didn't eventually do the "polishing," though -- goodness knows she had enough years to work on it! Maybe she was afraid of touching it, lest she "mess it up" or something? (But honestly, I think it could've used a little work.)

JKR is funny about stuff like that, though. She doesn't seem to like people being critical of her -- she sort of takes the attitude that "...if you don't like it, don't read it. It's MINE." Which of course she is certainly entitled to do! Maybe she took a great bit of pride in the fact that "...this is the ending I knew I would reach eventually, and doggone it, I did it! I wrote it just like this a loooong time ago, and I wrote for ten whole years to get back around to it, and it still fits, and so here it is! Unchanged! Ta-dahhhh!"

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PeskyPixie - Oct 23, 2007 1:50 pm (#195 of 208)
Well, once your work is out in the open (and making you money, I might add), be prepared for each reader to interpret it in his/her own way and (the shock!) have their own independent opinions about it. Someone could hate a chapter for the same reason that another person loves it.

Personally, I feel she needed help with the structure of this book, especially the epilogue. I would have gladly waited one more year if she'd just taken her time and analyzed it objectively.

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James Greenfield - Oct 23, 2007 3:49 pm (#196 of 208)
I too feel that the Epilogue reads much like the style of the first 3 or 4 books. If JKR did , in fact, write it a long time ago, she might well not have wanted to change it any more than was necessary to comply with any changes she had made in the other books in the intervening years.

It is also possible that she made it resemble the style of the first book on purpose, so as to give a sense of closure to the whole series, with Harry now in the position of an adult launching a young son into the whole world of Hogwarts. If so, she did it very well.

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Orion - Nov 7, 2007 12:02 pm (#197 of 208)
What I like most about the epilogue is Ron's muggle driving test. It shows that modern wizards are prepared to live among muggles and give up their secret lives. Before that, they chose to live like terrorists who are chased by police. They put charms on their houses so that muggles couldn't see them, for example. And we never quite got a satisfying reason why. Hagrid said that if wizards didn't hide, muggles would invade their houses to get free advice. That is a very poor explanation. And we also had Ariana's example what happened to a wizard kid who was found out. There is something sinister about the secret lives of wizards, as if they were locked up in an institution if they were discovered. It is so nice to see how they open up and enjoy life in the open.

When wizards now choose to take part in the muggle world, they can live the muggle lifestyle with fashion, cinema, rock music and holidays on the beach. They can still use the floo network and buy wizard wheezes, but they have all the options now.

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PeskyPixie - Nov 7, 2007 12:14 pm (#198 of 208)
But didn't Ron Confund the examiner? Not that I blame him!

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Phelim Mcintyre - Nov 8, 2007 3:39 am (#199 of 208)
I wish I could confound the examiner, for some things. I also wish I could do the sensory awareness spell Ron speaks about.

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Victoire Weasley - Nov 8, 2007 8:43 am (#200 of 208)
Yes, the sensory awareness spell would be great for those darn blind spots. I wish I could do a shield spell around my car and have a little barrier against other drivers. Wouldn't that be great?

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Madam Pince - Nov 11, 2007 10:43 am (#201 of 208)
Wow, Orion, that's interesting! I didn't read it that way -- that witches/wizards were now, post-Voldy, living openly among muggles. I only read it that Ron had to learn to drive (and possibly blend into the Muggle World in other ways as well) because of his new in-laws being muggles, and he would have to "act muggle" when he went to visit them, etc. Your take is interesting, though! I'll have to think it through more on re-read.

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Orion - Nov 11, 2007 10:54 am (#202 of 208)
Provided Hermione manages to restore their memories...

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Madam Pince - Nov 11, 2007 11:16 am (#203 of 208)
Tee-hee!

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Julia H. - Dec 21, 2007 12:11 am (#204 of 208)
"Provided Hermione manages to restore their memories..." (Orion)

I hope it's not too late to post on this thread. At one point Ron mentions "Granddad Weasley". Since it is not just "Granddad", we can probably conclude that there is a "Granddad Granger" as well.

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Orion - Dec 21, 2007 9:13 am (#205 of 208)
Ah, she has found this thread. There's hope for them, then. I always sort of liked them. They seemed so tolerant and laid back.

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Madam Pince - Dec 27, 2007 10:27 am (#206 of 208)
Excellent catch, Julia! I was rather disappointed that JKR left Hermione's poor parents just hanging out there with their memories still erased, and we never found out what happened to them! This is a pretty obscure clue, but you're right -- good detective work on your part!

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PeskyPixie - Dec 27, 2007 8:52 pm (#207 of 208)
Yes, well done, Julia!

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freshwater - Feb 9, 2008 8:36 am (#208 of 208)
Chiming in much later....and after having caught up on the last 130 or so posts....

Someone (about 40 posts back) mentioned that Harry's giving Albus the middle name of Severus was a way of honoring SS's love for Lily. That observation promted these connections for me:

...the prophecy said that "he will have power the Dark Lord knows not"...

...DD always emphasized Harry's power to love and that that would be crucial to the defeat of LV...

....it now seems to me that Severus Snape's power to love --unrequited yet undiminished over time-- also played a crucial role in the defeat of LV: his double-agent role that contributed to the protection of Harry, his dedication to DD and his willingness to do whatever DD required of him....these things may not have ocurred had Severus not continued to labor under the claims of his love for Lily.

BTW...thanks to all the previous posters for sharing their insights and questions and conflicts....as always, the intelligent, funny, thoughtful musing of other HP fans has exponentially compounded my enjoyment of this book.

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[Mona]

Kip Carter - Jul 19, 2007 1:36 am
Edited Jul 25, 2007 10:45 pm
This thread is provided for General Discussion of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows Only!


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Vulture - Aug 14, 2007 5:11 am (#1 of 85)
So no-one has posted to this discussion ? _ let me start the ball rolling.

On my first reading of Book 7, I blazed through like mad. After I was finished, I kept hopping back and forth in it to read particular bits. Now, I'm doing a calmer second re-read from first page to last. This may not be the best way to get to know a book, but this is how I've done it, in case you're wondering.

Anyway, I'm on short login time just now, so _

Book 7's strengths: JKR seems to be at her best and most original when she creates small set-pieces involving few characters, and she seems to convey emotions best when they're understated. Two examples which occur to me of the above are (a)Dudley's changed attitude to Harry in "The Dursleys Departing", and (b)Harry's quarrel with Lupin in Grimmauld Place. In (a), even though the change in Dudley is _ for him !! _ quite momentuous, it is all expressed in a very understated, almost repressed, way: just what we would expect, given past history, in other words. In (b), the simplicity of the setting gives the Lupin-Harry quarrel maximum impact. I'm afraid that JKR doesn't always stick to what works for her in other big character moments ... but I'm being logged out !!

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Steve Newton - Aug 14, 2007 6:19 am (#2 of 85)
I also tore through the book the first time, about 16 hours with a party in the middle. Now I'm slowly rereading and am up to chapter 8.

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Madam Pince - Aug 16, 2007 3:50 pm (#3 of 85)
Best example of understated emotion in the whole series (to me) is this one, from Chapter 3 of DH:

"Once I'm seventeen, the protective charm that keeps me safe will break, and that exposes you as well as me. The Order is sure Voldemort will target you, whether to torture you to try and find out where I am, or because he thinks by holding you hostage I'd come and try to rescue you."

Uncle Vernon's and Harry's eyes met. Harry was sure that in that instant they were both wondering the same thing. Then Uncle Vernon walked on and Harry resumed....

Brilliant! Absolutely beautiful bit of writing. Talk about understated!

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Orion - Aug 18, 2007 2:29 pm (#4 of 85)
Brilliant! I mean, the whole book. I always thought Prisoner of Azkaban was the best, but this is much looser, not so tightly knit, with more s p a c e. And with emotional highlights! For me, book one and two are the childrens books, the third the Potter of Potters, the fourth and fifth depressing and dreary, the sixth surprisingly good again, and the seventh one is the masterpiece. I enjoy very much the descriptions how they sit around in the woods, because it's a relief: In Prisoner of Azkaban, for example, the timeline is so tight that the last chapters rush past like in an action movie, so little emphasis is on atmosphere or description. The looseness is the best thing about DH and it's by far the most enjoyable in years. It's probably because Harry isn't blackmailable any more (because he has already lost everyone, especially Sirius), he isn't at school anymore, and sitting in a tent is a completely new freedom.

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Mrs Brisbee - Aug 20, 2007 6:38 am (#5 of 85)
I've no idea where to put this, so I'll put this here:

What, exactly, was Dumbledore's plan? Harry, Ron, and Hermione were supposed to find and destroy the Horcruxes. Snape was supposed to protect Hogwarts as the new Headmaster, and hang around Voldemort until Voldy got overprotective of his snake, and then Snape was supposed to track down Harry and convince him to willingly go to his death at Voldemort's hand.

And then what? Did Dumbledore have any other important role for Snape? Dumbledore seemed to think Snape's role was the most important, because at the beginning of DH Dumbledore and Snape felt it was worth selling out the Order and the Trio to keep Snape in Voldy's good graces.

Was Snape supposed to finish off Nagini and Voldemort once Harry was dead? Did Snape know this, or was he operating on a need-to-know basis from Dumbledore's portrait, and if so how was Snape to know what to do after being kicked out of the castle? Was Snape the only one Dumbledore would trust with this job because Snape was the only one magically powerful enough to accomplish this?

What would have happened to the plan if Snape couldn't of found Harry to give him the sword?

What would have happened if Harry and Hermione had gotten lucky and killed Nagini at Godrics Hollow?

What would have happened if Voldemort never discovered that his other Horcruxes were being destroyed, so he never started guarding his snake, so Snape never tried to find Harry to give him the message?

In other words, what was the Plan, and how was it supposed to happen?

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Luna Logic - Aug 20, 2007 7:55 am (#6 of 85)
Mrs Brisbee, I'm rejoining your questions. What exactly, was Dumbledore's plan to "finish" Voldemort?
I have posted on Chapter 35 thread that I'm not sure about my understanding of the Dumbledore's intention concerning Snape and the Elder wand.()
Harry is speaking : 'If you planned your death with Snape, you meant him to end up with the Elder Wand, didn't you?' 'I admit that was my intention," said Dumbledore, "but it did not work out as I intended, did it?' Ch 35, p. 578 Bloomsbury
I am not sure of he meaning of  you meant him to end up with the Elder Wand".
And how could this help in Voldemort destruction? Was Snape's role only to keep students safe, and handle his memories to Harry, with the power of the Elder wand destroyed?

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Mrs Brisbee - Aug 20, 2007 9:17 am (#7 of 85)
Luna Logic, that's one to add to the list!

We have it straight from Dumbledore's mouth that he wanted Snape to end up with the Elder Wand. Yet that makes no sense, because if he wanted Snape to have his wand surely he would have told Snape.

In "The Flaw In The Plan", Harry tells Voldemort that by the way Dumbledore had set up his death, the Wands ownership should have died with Dumbledore. It is unclear whether or not that was Dumbledore's intention, though, or if Dumbledore also didn't understand exactly how the Wand switched ownership.

Has Rowling cleared this up in any post-DH interview yet?

I wonder if Snape was supposed to end up with the wand, but not know what it was for or even retrieve it until the Horcruxes were vanquished, and then Dumbledore's portrait would instruct Snape to use it to defeat Voldemort.

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Chemyst - Aug 20, 2007 9:38 am (#8 of 85)
Yet that makes no sense, because if he wanted Snape to have his wand surely he would have told Snape.

NO! The plan was for HRH to destroy soul bits and for Snape to destroy the Elder Wand. But? Snape could not be told that Dumbledore's wand was the Elder Wand or Snape might be tempted to take it for himself! (Or the risk of having his mind read would be a bad thing too, even if Snape resisted temptation!) Snape believed he was killing DD for several reasons: to spare Draco's soul from murder, to keep the spy-thing going, and now that Dumbledore was dying anyway, to spare him from being tortured first. Snape was not told that by killing Dumbledore, owner of the Elder Wand, Dumbledore would die undefeated, and therefore the power of the Elder Wand would end with him. It would become an ordinary wand in power, special only because of its history.
At the time of DD's death, only Dumbledore and Grindelwald would have known the whereabouts of the Elder Wand, and fortunately, neither of them were talking. If Draco had not disarmed DD, the plan would have worked.

That is why in the Battle at the Ministry at the end of OP, Dumbledore was so fearful — not that Voldemort might kill him per se, but that Voldemort might "win" the Elder Wand and gain even more power.

DD's plan was to use Harry & Co. to disarm the horcruxes, and to use Snape to disarm the Elder Wand. Once disarmed, Voldemort would be just Tom Riddle, mortal wizard, again.

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Mrs Brisbee - Aug 20, 2007 9:53 am (#9 of 85)
Chemyst, that all makes sense and that perhaps was what the plan should have been, but does Dumbledore ever say that that was what the plan was? Dumbledore did say that he intended that Snape would end up with the Wand, which seems odd but why say it if it wasn't so.

I'm trying to figure out what Dumbledore's overall plan was, and how it was all supposed to fit together. Snape didn't need to be Voldemort's right hand man to do the "mercy killing". There must have been some really good reason to want Snape in that position. It was worth selling out the Order and the Trio to keep him there, and he was not a useful spy for the Good Guys any longer at that point.

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Chemyst - Aug 20, 2007 10:13 am (#10 of 85)
...but why say it if it wasn't so.

But it was so.
Dumbledore did intend that Snape would end up with the de-powered Elder Wand. He intended that Snape would unknowingly assist in removing the special power of the Elder Wand by "helping" Dumbledore to die on purpose and without defeat. If the wizard who owns the Elder Wand dies undefeated, the power will not transfer to the next wizard.
(That is now Harry's plan, to die undefeated, but fan fiction is busy exploiting the loopholes, I'm afraid.)

...and he was not a useful spy

Snape was not a useful spy for the ORDER, but he was still very useful for the good guys. He ameliorated the Carrows' brutality at Hogwarts, he got the Gryffindor Sword to Harry, he did not turn over 12GP, he was able to pass on vital information for Harry to view in the Pensieve.

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Mrs Brisbee - Aug 20, 2007 10:44 am (#11 of 85)
Is this ever stated in the book, or is this your interpretation?

Certainly that might have been all there was to the plan, but why was it so important for Snape to be Voldemort's right hand man if that is the case.

Snape was not a useful spy for the ORDER, but he was still very useful for the good guys. He ameliorated the Carrows' brutality at Hogwarts, he got the Gryffindor Sword to Harry, he did not turn over 12GP, he was able to pass on vital information for Harry to view in the Pensieve.

Getting to be Headmasters of Hogwarts was useful to protect the students, but to seal Snape's position the Order and Trio were betrayed. The Order is trying to fight for the entire Wizarding World, not just the school, and the Trio are supposed to be finding the Horcruxes. Whatever Snape's remaining duties after killing Dumbledore, they must be pretty important to warrant the betrayal.

As for getting Gryffindor's Sword to Harry, why not entrust that duty to the Deputy Headmistress before Snape's appointment as Headmaster? Especially considering that Snape really had no idea where Harry was to give it to him. It was pure chance that Snape ever found Harry to get him the Sword.

Snape doesn't need to be Voldemort's right hand man not to turn over 12 Grimmauld Place. He just has to keep his mouth shut.

It was also pure luck that Snape was able to get Harry those memories. I'm wondering how Dumbledore expected this part of his plan to go down. If Snape's only duty was to convince Harry to go to his death, then why not entrust that duty to someone who is an ally of Harry's rather than an enemy? Snape and Harry are completely cut off from communication, how is Snape supposed to get him any messages without aid from any of the Good Guys. So the question is, is there a good reason Snape has to be in this position? What was the plan?

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Orion - Aug 20, 2007 12:04 pm (#12 of 85)
There was a time when i completely understood the plan regarding the elder wand but, like in every maths lesson I had, half an hour later it always becomes all jumbled again. So: Malfoy should, in Voldemorts plan, end up murdering Dumbledore to become master of the elder wand and Voldemort would have disposed of the boy afterwards, thus becoming master of the elder wand himself. Only that Snape managed to push the boy away, not only preventing him from becoming a murderer but also of getting the mastership of the wand. The wand lay there and ended up in Dumbledore's grave, and kept his power because Malfoy had indeed defeated Dumbledore, he had disarmed him. And Harry later on wrestles with Malfoy and disarms him, not of the Elder wand but of Malfoys own, an action which still secures the power of the Elder wand although the Elder wand isn't present in it. But Mrs Rowling can, in her own universe, do as she pleases. Then Harry disarms Voldemort and becomes the master of the Elder wand but doesn't want it. Here, it becomes all jumbled again, I'm afraid. There are so many things going horribly wrong in this chain of events that never, never the whole caboodle was Dumbledore's plan. Would it be very wrong to assume that Dumbledore didn't have a perfect plan to defeat Voldemort and relied on chance, Snape, Harry and a fat lot of help?

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Luna Logic - Aug 20, 2007 12:22 pm (#13 of 85)
a fat lot of help! Perhaps you are not far from, Orion... I'm beginning to think that some (big?) parts of the plot are really a matter of "help will be given to those who ask" (there I'm paraphrasing and not quoting).

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Chemyst - Aug 20, 2007 1:45 pm (#14 of 85)
As for getting Gryffindor's Sword to Harry, why not entrust that duty to the Deputy Headmistress before Snape's appointment as Headmaster?
Because Minerva had authority only for about as long as it took to plan Dumbledore's funeral. At the end of HBP she let the board of directors decide the future of Hogwarts. Summer vacation began right away. Within days, Voldemort had infiltrated the ministry enough to cover up the murder of the Muggle Studies teacher. Even though the public announcement of Snape's appointment to headmaster was not made until September 1st, it had probably been a done deal since the Ministry fell the 1st of August. At some point, Bellatrix believed the sword, formerly in Dumbledore's office, was transferred into her vault. Snape would have been the one person Voldemort could have used to steal the sword from the headmaster's office for transfer to the LaStrange vault. Snape was also the only person who could have made the switch without arousing suspicion. This was important because the sword could be used to destroy horcruxes.

Especially considering that Snape really had no idea where Harry was to give it to him. It was pure chance that Snape ever found Harry to get him the Sword.
Not total chance. Because Snape was headmaster, he had access to Phineas Nigelus's Hogwarts portrait, And because of Hermione's foresight in wanting to control access to the 12GP portrait, she had popped that one into her bag. Thanks to Phineas, Snape did know they were in the Forest of Dean. He also knew that a silver doe patronus shining in a forest at night would really stand out, and that he could use it as "bait" with the extra advantage of not having to reveal himself.

By the way, because Snape was headmaster, he had access to Dumbledore's portrait as well. Now I suppose DD could have left Snape a wallet-size copy to continue to communicate after the AK, but that could have been hard to explain if some other DE had seen it. Private access to DD's portrait by a trusted good-guy was vital to the defeat of LV; using Snape as that person fits the story.

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Orion - Aug 20, 2007 1:51 pm (#15 of 85)
Er, Luna, that was LVs plan, not Dumbledore's, sorry. In Dumbledore's, let me think, Snape should end up with this elder thingie and retrieve it to the grave like a faithful doggie only he couldn't because LV set his snake on Snape and the snake snapped after Snape and Snape snuffed it and that was the end of Dumbledore's plan. That is the most chaotic plan I ever heard of.

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Madam Pince - Aug 20, 2007 2:24 pm (#16 of 85)
Getting to be Headmaster of Hogwarts was useful to protect the students, but to seal Snape's position the Order and Trio were betrayed. The Order is trying to fight for the entire Wizarding World, not just the school, and the Trio are supposed to be finding the Horcruxes. Whatever Snape's remaining duties after killing Dumbledore, they must be pretty important to warrant the betrayal. --Mrs. Brisbee

Personally, I think one of the major points of Dumbledore's plan would've been to protect the students at Hogwarts. He took that duty very seriously. Remember how severe he got with Harry when Harry suggested that perhaps DD had not looked out for Hogwarts students well enough in HBP? He was right ticked. He would think it absolutely crucial to have someone in place within Voldemort's circle who could slide smoothly into the Headmaster position in the (very likely) event that Voldemort ends up taking over -- someone who could make sure the kids aren't abused too much while at the same time not arousing Voldy's suspicions that he was actually doing so. I can't think of anyone else who could've done that except Snape.

I have no book canon for that -- it is just my interpretation of Dumbledore's character and the situation. It is one thing I would've been working towards, if I were Dumbledore. The alternative is to hope or send word that all wizarding parents will somehow be able to get their kids away from Hogwarts after the "takeover" and keep them in hiding at home to keep them as safe as possible.

The other important thing is just as you say -- Snape has all the other information. He is sort-of the "second half" of Harry -- Harry has part of the information needed to defeat Voldemort, and Snape has the rest. Snape is without a doubt a very powerful wizard, arguably one of the most powerful ones left now that DD is gone. Plus he is the only one positioned to be able to "play" Voldemort. I'd say that's a pretty important role.

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Soul Search - Aug 20, 2007 4:44 pm (#17 of 85)
Having Snape be Headmaster, at Hogwarts, and Snape being on the alert for a change in Voldemort's behavior toward Nagini seems a bit at odds. At Hogwarts, Snape was away from Voldemort and Nagini.

It worked out, since Snape was kicked out of Hogwarts and was around for Voldemort to send Lucius to fetch him, but that seems a bit by coincidence.

It seems Dumbledore figured the last battle would be at Hogwarts.

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Choices - Aug 20, 2007 4:54 pm (#18 of 85)
Snape may have been at Hogwarts, but I'm sure he had plenty of time to check-up on Voldemort. We definitely saw him at the meeting at Malfoy Manor. Whenever he saw or reported to Voldemort, he could have noted how close he was keeping Nagini.

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NFla Barbara - Aug 20, 2007 5:13 pm (#19 of 85)
In Dumbledore's, let me think, Snape should end up with this elder thingie and retrieve it to the grave like a faithful doggie only he couldn't because LV set his snake on Snape


Orion, the plan went awry because Draco succeeded in disarming Dumbledore...Snape retrieving the wand was secondary in importance to Snape killing DD with DD's assent, because that way the wand would not be "mastered" and its power would die with DD. DD could be (has been, elsewhere on the forum) criticized for keeping so much information about the Elder Wand to himself...it does seem risky (more than chaotic) to put so much at stake for a plan that depended on no one getting the wand away from DD before he died.

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Joanna Lupin - Aug 21, 2007 2:30 am (#20 of 85)
About Snape being unable to monitor Voldemort's actions towards Nagini - I think people tend to forget that the whole resolution played out within less than 24 hours. I doubt even Dumbledore expected Harry to fulfill his mission in less than a year. Voldemort could have discovered Harry was hunting horcruxes after the snake was the last left, and he could be protecting it for months. It would work if the Gringotts break-in went quietly.

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Mrs Brisbee - Aug 21, 2007 3:04 am (#21 of 85)
It is also possible that Voldemort wouldn't have discovered his missing Horcruxes, and never would have got paranoid over Nagini. Plus, there seems to have been no plan for Snape to be able to locate Harry. How long did it take to find Harry so Snape could give him the sword (I'll have to look it up)? That was just a fluke that Snape could find him then-- Hermione just happened to be carrying around Phineas Nigellus's portrait, and she just happened to mention where they were with her purse open. Pure luck. I wonder why Dumbledore didn't give Snape the Deluminator instead of Ron?

Had Dumbledore bothered to tell McGonagall that Harry needed the Sword, she could have made sure Harry got it immediately upon Dumbledore's death, but he wouldn't trust her with even that small detail. He only trusted Snape, so had to wait for Snape to become headmaster and deliver it by pure luck. Bad planning there.

I still think there had to be more to the plan, else why sacrifice so much to make Snape the right hand man to Voldemort? That's a position that Snape would not likely keep forever, since Voldemort strike's me as a what-have-you-done-for-me-lately? kind of guy, so continued sacrifices would be needed to keep Snape there. Snape probably was slated to step in and kill Nagini and Voldemort after Harry had been killed.

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Chemyst - Aug 21, 2007 5:10 am (#22 of 85)
That was just a fluke that Snape could find him then – ?Pure luck.

At the end of chapter 33, The Prince's Tale, there are indications to the contrary. In the Pensieve, Harry sees the moment when Phineas comes hurrying into his portrait. He starts right out with, "Headmaster! They are camping in the Forest of Dean!" Snape knows who the "they" refers to. This indicates that Snape has already been trying to find Harry.

We see only the "finding" part of what has been a search, so it may seem like a fluke, but they had obviously been hunting for Harry.
Dumbledore's response then is, "Very good, Now, Severus, the sword!" Dumbledore actually starts giving Severus more additional information but Snape cuts him off. "'I know,' said Snape curtly."

If Snape had wanted more help, he could easily have asked "Well Abus, the forest is a pretty big place, any suggestions?" But he did not. He actually cut off Dumbledore a second time: "Don't worry, Dumbledore," he said coolly. I have a plan?" DD was holding back on WHY Harry needed the sword, but he would not have held back on suggesting locating spells , charms, or uses for little silver instruments that he'd left in the office if Snape had asked about those.

They had been looking and waiting for a tip. When the break came, Snape had a plan. When you have been looking for someone, have one of your sources pay off, and then have a plan in place to act on that information, I scarcely think the best word for it is "fluke."

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NFla Barbara - Aug 21, 2007 6:14 am (#23 of 85)
That was just a fluke that Snape could find him then-- Hermione just happened to be carrying around Phineas Nigellus's portrait, and she just happened to mention where they were with her purse open. Pure luck. I wonder why Dumbledore didn't give Snape the Deluminator instead of Ron?


I think DD has been watching Ron and Hermione very closely for the last several years, and thought he knew what they needed. I'm also not sure it was really a "fluke" for Snape to find them -- something that made it easy for Snape to track them might have put them at greater risk of LV finding them quickly.

Had Dumbledore bothered to tell McGonagall that Harry needed the Sword, she could have made sure Harry got it immediately upon Dumbledore's death, but he wouldn't trust her with even that small detail. He only trusted Snape, so had to wait for Snape to become headmaster and deliver it by pure luck. Bad planning there.


It is a bit disappointing to me that McGonagall was so peripheral, although it also makes sense to me that DD knew she would stay and defend the school as long as the school needed her. But she could not just give him the sword; it had to be taken under "conditions of need and valor." The need had to be fairly specific, because you could say, in a general way, that Harry needed the sword all through DH, and yet DD and Snape held it from him until it was time to destroy the locket.

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Mrs Brisbee - Aug 21, 2007 8:41 pm (#24 of 85)
Chemyst and NFla Barbara, if I'm reading you correctly you both believe that Snape getting the sword to Harry was part of The Plan, and Snape had ample means to track Harry and know what Harry was up to. I understand the story differently, so if you could expound on why you think this that would be helpful. I'm trying to figure out exactly what The Plan was. To me the Sword thing still looks like a fluke. I don't see how Dumbledore would have known that Harry had the locket.

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Madam Pince - Aug 21, 2007 9:45 pm (#25 of 85)
Can I insert a secondary question in here, that Chemyst's post reminded me? When Snape said "...I have a plan..." what was he referring to?

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Joanna Lupin - Aug 22, 2007 2:06 am (#26 of 85)
Naturally, he was refering to the doe patronus.

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NFla Barbara - Aug 22, 2007 4:10 am (#27 of 85)
Chemyst and NFla Barbara, if I'm reading you correctly you both believe that Snape getting the sword to Harry was part of The Plan, and Snape had ample means to track Harry and know what Harry was up to. I understand the story differently, so if you could expound on why you think this that would be helpful. I'm trying to figure out exactly what The Plan was. To me the Sword thing still looks like a fluke. I don't see how Dumbledore would have known that Harry had the locket.


I don't think he needed to know Harry had the locket. (Something I have not gone back to figure out yet -- when DD died, they had retrieved the "fake" locket, right? At the time of his death, did he believe Harry already had the locket? Harry doesn't find the note from RAB until after DD is dead, if I remember correctly.) I think the sword had to be taken under conditions of need and valor. Someone could bring it -- Fawkes in CS -- but Snape could not just show up and put it in Harry's path without Harry knowing that Snape was helping him, which in turn would jeopardize Snape with LV.

So, DD left Harry the sword, knowing, I think, that the ministry would not turn it over to him, but thereby letting him know that he would need it. Leaving it to Harry in his will was a backup plan. If DD had not died before Harry began his quest, DD could have used the sword himself or, if Harry needed it when he was not with DD, perhaps DD could have sent Fawkes again...instead, he relied on Snape to do it.

Were the specific details part of the plan -- no, because there were too many unknowns.

I don't think Snape had ample means to track Harry. I think he was simply supposed to use all means at his disposal without endangering Harry, and act when the time was right. Once Harry, Ron and Hermione had taken off, Snape had to be watching for any clues to where they were -- the timing did not depend on their finding the real locket.

DD has been criticized elsewhere for keeping too much information to himself, but in this instance (well, because he was dead), he had to delegate and Snape had to create his own plan to fill in the gaps.

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Chemyst - Aug 22, 2007 7:34 am (#28 of 85)
Auggh!

OK

if I'm reading you correctly you both believe that Snape getting the sword to Harry was part of The Plan, and Snape had ample means to track Harry and know what Harry was up to.

Snape getting the sword to Harry was part of The Plan ~ yes; more fully explained later.
Snape had ample means to track Harry ~ no; Snape had ample very limited means to track Harry.
Snape had ample means to? know what Harry was up to ~ just barely, and some literary license is called for.

This is a little difficult to follow because JKR spreads out the clues over several chapters; but let's try anyway:
Chapter 15, trio is camping at riverbank, they overhear Ted Tonks, Dean, Griphook, et al. They learn that Ginny, Neville & Luna had tried to steal a sword from Snape's office, were caught, and learn that as a result, Snape later sent that sword to Gringotts. Griphook believes Snape did not know it was a fake.
Later, the trio questions Phineas about when he last saw the sword out of its case, he answers when DD destroyed the ring. The trio now knows the sword can destroy the locket. Phineas was passing information both ways.

Now the kids speculate ~ they get parts right and parts wrong:
Harry speaking first
"And DD didn't give it to me because he wanted to use it on the locket–
"and he must have realized they wouldn't let you have it if he put it in his will–
"so he made a copy–
"..and put a fake in the glass case–
"...and left the real one ? where?"
(This discussion also referred to in the footnote about McGonagall.)

So far, so good, but they then make wrong guesses because they believe Snape betrayed DD. They wrongly reason that DD would not have left the real sword at Hogwarts, and Hermione adds that DD would not have trusted Snape "enough to tell him that he had swapped the swords." Well, we don't know when DD told Snape, I'd guess at the last possible minute, but Snape does know about the "other" sword by chapter 19, (although Harry won't know this until he uses The Pensieve.).

Harry knew DD wanted him to have the sword from the Will, he now knows the reason why DD planned to give him the sword, but he and Hermione wrongly guess that DD hid it at Godric's Hollow and go looking for it there. From chapter 33, The Prince's Tale, we learn that DD asked Snape to get the sword to Harry, and that the transfer required conditions of need & valor. So yes, Snape getting the sword to Harry was DD's plan. Of course, we don't know how much of that plan was made up as he went along. This may well have been Plan B, a contingency plan, but nevertheless, it was DD's plan.

A weak part of the plan was that Snape had to find Harry, or at least get a general idea of his whereabouts. I would GUESS that he and DD tried several things. But we know the one that finally paid off was the portrait of Phineas. Once Snape had a general idea of where to look, he had a plan to narrow down Harry's location. That plan was to use his Patronus as bait.

~ ~ ~ Footnote on why not use McGonagall to give Harry the sword ~ DD believed he still needed the sword for the locket at the time of his death; (of course, he still needed the locket too but did not know that.) Wizard society is not a feminist society! Tonks was an auror, but mostly, women have very traditional roles; especially women from McGonagall's era. DD had never told her anything that that was "too risky." Since he was not done with the sword at the time he dies, and since she'd have been responsible for providing a condition of bravery and therefore a condition of risk, it makes more sense for DD to use Snape rather than Minerva.

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Choices - Aug 22, 2007 7:52 am (#29 of 85)
The more people Dumbledore confided in, the more risk there was that Voldemort could abduct them and torture the truth out of them. There was a need for secrecy and for as little danger for those around him as possible.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 22, 2007 10:35 am (#30 of 85)
I always thought his not confiding in McGonagall, Sprout, and Flitwick was Dumbledore's method of ensuring the safety and security of the students in the event Voldemort captured the school because, under duress people are more inclined to reveal vital information without meaning to do so.

Snape was the only one Dumbledore could confide into an extent because, as a former Death Eater, Severus was well aware of the methods used by the Death eaters to extract information and probably could withstand them for a longer period of time.

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Soul Search - Aug 22, 2007 11:41 am (#31 of 85)
Chemyst,

Good analysis. I think I would emphasize the "Phineas was passing information both ways" part. We saw a few Phineas conversations, but there was also a reference to regular conversations, especially after Ron cut out. We saw Phineas tell Snape/Dumbledore's portrait that they were in the "Forest of Dean," but he had to have learned more before that. For example, that they had the real locket, had not destroyed it, and that wearing it was causing them distress. It might also be that the deluminator was caused to show Ron the way back to Harry and Hermione. After all, Dumbledore invented it.

"... his not confiding in McGonagall, Sprout, and Flitwick was Dumbledore's method of ensuring the safety and security of the students ..."

I agree, but I also got that Dumbledore thought McGonagall may have liked Harry too much and couldn't be trusted to send Harry into great danger, and certainly not to his death. She did, after all, watch #4 Privet Drive all day. Only Snape could be trusted to send Harry to his death.

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legolas returns - Aug 22, 2007 12:21 pm (#32 of 85)
Professor McGonagall wanted to protect Harry. She tells Harry to flee as quickly as possible when he returns to Hogwarts. When she finds out that Harry is carrying out Dumbledores order she ensures that he has as much time as possible to carry out the orders.

When Hagrid brought back "dead" Harry Professor McGonagall felt utter despair

"NO!" 'The scream was more terrible because he had never expected or dreamed that Professor McGonagall could make such a sound.'

I agree that she would protect rather than allow Harry to do anything dangerous.

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TomProffitt - Aug 22, 2007 4:02 pm (#33 of 85)
I agree that she [McGonagall] would protect rather than allow Harry to do anything dangerous. --- legolas returns

I disagree myself. I think a lot of potential help for Harry was sold short in the series. McGonagall was fully capable of understanding the magic involved and able to draw the correct conclusions as to what this meant for Harry and what he needed to do.

There were many others I thought capable of handling the information that were never given it, like Lupin, Moody, and Arthur Weasley.

I think the short list of trusted people had more to with Dumbledore's inability to trust himself than the trustworthiness of the Order members.

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Chemyst - Aug 22, 2007 6:51 pm (#34 of 85)
On McGonagall's reaction to Hagrid bringing back "dead" Harry— yes, she was feeling utter despair in the moment, but beginning with her introduction back in PS, I get the sense that she is a person who will collect facts and process things slowly. Her impulse is to protect Harry, and we saw that again during the career advice; but if she were given a few days to come to terms with the situation, I think she'd see and comprehend the reality too.
I agree with TomProffitt's assessment of reasons Lupin, Moody, and Arthur Weasley weren't given more information. But in McGonagall's case, I think the additional complication of Dumbledore's old-fashioned chivalry concerning a woman's place is also a factor.

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Mrs Brisbee - Aug 23, 2007 9:57 am (#35 of 85)
I don't know. Dumbledore seems to have distrusted everyone except Snape and Harry. I don't think McGonagall's sex figured into it. Rowling does present her sexes slightly differently, with the guys always slightly higher up the rungs in worth then the gals; and maybe that y chromosome made it easier for Dumbledore to see Snape and Harry as people he could identify with. But it would be hard to come up with evidence that McGonagall got left out in the cold because she was a woman, when Dumbledore treated practically everyone else to the same. I do feel a little depressed that we see Dumbledore doesn't trust McGonagall at the beginning of the series, in PS/SS, and that that hasn't changed at the end of the series.

I think the short list of trusted people had more to with Dumbledore's inability to trust himself than the trustworthiness of the Order members.-- TomProffitt

I think that is it. There was something about Harry and Snape that drew him to trust them, while throwing the rest of the Order aside.

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mona amon - Aug 23, 2007 7:26 pm (#36 of 85)
I think it was just that Harry and Snape were the right men for the job, not that he did not trust the rest of the order. Harry, because he was the one who had to defeat Voldemort. Snape, because he had Voldemort's trust. When dealing with highly classified information, the fewer the people who know it, the better. As for the 'Harry is a Horcrux' information, perhaps he felt Snape would be the right man for that job because he was the only one who would not let his emotions interfere with doing what he had to do?

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Chemyst - Aug 24, 2007 11:08 am (#37 of 85)
But it would be hard to come up with evidence that McGonagall got left out in the cold because she was a woman?

LOL I don't think she was left out in the cold either. Dumbledore was such a gentleman and valued his manners so highly that he'd make sure she was at a comfortable room temperature– He put a good measure of trust in her because she was very capable of handling a good measure, but he never challenged her beyond her limit or into danger where she had to live on the "wild side" the way the men were challenged. He allowed women to be strong, but never demanded that they be so. And that is a good thing. I want chivalry to live on in the wizard world.

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Soul Search - Aug 24, 2007 1:15 pm (#38 of 85)
Good points, but I see it as just Dumbledore wanting McGonagall for Hogwarts. She was in the Order, but we only saw her at #12 once (Harry made a point of her being there.)

Dumbledore didn't let McGonagall run afoul of the Ministry, or anything, so she would always be there.

I note in Deathly Hallows, when the time came, she quickly and decisively took charge of the school's defense.

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Luna Logic - Aug 24, 2007 1:56 pm (#39 of 85)
Yes, she was quick to understand ! Harry says to her :
'Professor, I?m acting on Dumbledore?s orders, I must find what he wanted me to find!'
'You are acting on Dumbledore's orders? she repeated, with a look of dawning wonder. Then she drew herself to her fullest height. 'We shall secure the school against He Who Must Not Be Named, while you search for this - this object.'(p. 479, ch. 30, Bloomsbury.)
Really Dumbledore must have insisted on Harry's mission while speaking to all Order's members.

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tandaradei - Aug 28, 2007 11:45 am (#40 of 85)
Orion (post 12) said:

...[cut]...Harry later on wrestles with Malfoy and disarms him, not of the Elder wand but of Malfoys own, an action which still secures the power of the Elder wand although the Elder wand isn't present in it. But Mrs Rowling can, in her own universe, do as she pleases...[cut]...
Yes:
"Very smart " owls know where their masters will eventually reside, and even beat them to such places (PoA, Ch3);
Reluctant house elves are both forced to recognize inheritance rights in wizardom (HBP, Ch3, interestingly), and go where told (many examples);
Thestrals know where to take folks anywhere, just from a command;
The epitomy of wands -- the Elder Wand -- both chooses its master and sometimes may even act on its own accord for the master's behalf (cf "golden spells," e.g., Chap4, DH)

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tandaradei - Aug 28, 2007 12:22 pm (#41 of 85)
Luna Logic, I did not mean to interrupt the flow here! Must figure out where threads begin and end.

Anyway, as to your train of thought, I was thinking Professor McGonagall was "continuing" a conversation she had had with Harry in the Half-Blood Prince:

...[cut]..."Harry," she said, "I would like to know what you and Professor Dumbledore were doing this evening when you left the school
"I can't tell you that, Professor," said Harry...[cut]...
"Harry, it might be important"...[cut]...
"It is," said Harry, "very, but he didn't want me to tell anyone."
HBP, Ch29,p626fUS
Harry then distracts Professor McGonagall from this line of questioning telling her Madam Rosmerta?s under an Imprious Curse; but we do know many of the Members of the Order had tried to unlock HRH?s secrets here; and I?m thinking her reaction in the Ravenclaw room was in response to this.

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maria cloos - Sep 1, 2007 8:24 pm (#42 of 85)
OK, forgive me as this is my first post....but I'm going to give it a shot.

Dumbledore's plan? Unfortunately in planning a total battle it is almost impossible to foresee all possibilities. So what did DD do? The absolute best he could with the information he had....which I believe was significant. Let's take a look. He delved into the enemy's past to learn ALL he could about him.

I will know hypothesize based on canon....

GoF- DD starts to read the signs (as Sirius assumes in his conversation in the cave with HRH) and realizes that LV may be on the rise)....but without a person to whom to point a finger there isn't much he can do. At the end of the book we see that "glimph of triumph" in his eyes as he learns that LV took blood from Harry. In that moment he knows that if his theory is correct that Harry will have a chance of survival.

OotP- He's concerned about the connection between LV and Harry and in the end dismisses it because he knows that LV wants no part of Harry's mind.

HBP- LV is now employing occlumency against Harry (this will come up later down the line). DD knows the end (for him) is near and that he must make sure that everything is taken care of before he dies. ***Side note- think about how difficult this would be in any case, any scenario (DD is not afraid of dying).*** He begins the task of arming Harry with the knowledge that he needs to BEGIN destroying LV (and makes sure that Harry will feel free to share the information with Ron and Hermione....knowing that the three of them are necessary for the task). He knew that at some point before Severus would have to kill him that he must also pass on the info that Harry himself held a part of LV's soul. How would one convey that information and to whom? What would have happened if he had told McGonagall, Arthur Weasley, or anyone like that how would they have reacted? How would they have been able to deal with it? I think we must also remember that these people loved Harry not because of "what he represented," but because they simply "liked him" and had "come to love him." Severus was the best choice because he chose to protect Harry out of his love for Lily, and although he really felt compelled to protect Harry his loyalty to eradicating LV was strong enough at that point (note Severus' and Albus' conversation...."How many men and women have you seen killed..?"....Severus' reply of "Only those I couldn't save"...don't have the book in front of me) I think he knew that whatever was necessary to stop LV would be necessary. DD may have even told Severus his belief that Harry might survive the incident due to the blood connection (but Severus, knowing that it had to be a true sacrifice, may have kept this memory from Harry).

DH- Keeping Severus in LV's best favor is still important. As Madam Pince pointed out, DD's main concern would have been to protect the innocent (the children), and since Severus obviously had the most teaching experience of LV's Lt.'s and if Severus asked for the post (after having "killed" DD) it would make the most sense. It's unlikely to assume that Severus wouldn't have known that the other professors avoided turning in students who had earned detention. He would turn a blind eye, knowing what would happen to those kids....and how did he punish Ginny, Neville and Luna for trying to steal the sword? And yes now, much goes to chance. Unfortunately that is the way that war goes.

Although much of the end winds up determined based on wandlore, that discussion is really for another forum. In the end DD just tried to give the secrets to those who would be able guard them and carry them out. After all, you can't put all of your eggs in one basket...and spreading delicate information around would fall into the same realm.

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Nicoline Vance - Sep 5, 2007 2:27 pm (#43 of 85)
Dumbledore's plan? Unfortunately in planning a total battle it is almost impossible to foresee all possibilities. So what did DD do? The absolute best he could with the information he had....which I believe was significant.

He knew that at some point before Severus would have to kill him that he must also pass on the info that Harry himself held a part of LV's soul. How would one convey that information and to whom? What would have happened if he had told McGonagall, Arthur Weasley, or anyone like that how would they have reacted? How would they have been able to deal with it? maria cloos

I agree with much of your post Maria. Snape would not be too sentimental. He may not like what Dumbledore was asking of Harry, but would not, no matter how unintentionally, sabotage him either. I think that some of the other Order members, may let their personal feelings for Harry get in the way, and therefore, keep Harry from doing what needed to be done (sacrifice himself willingly).

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Mrs Brisbee - Sep 6, 2007 5:34 am (#44 of 85)
He knew that at some point before Severus would have to kill him that he must also pass on the info that Harry himself held a part of LV's soul. How would one convey that information and to whom? What would have happened if he had told McGonagall, Arthur Weasley, or anyone like that how would they have reacted? How would they have been able to deal with it?-- maria cloos

I still say Snape is an odd choice because how was he supposed to find Harry and get him to listen? Picking a new leader for the resistance, like Moody, would have been the ideal situation. If Dumbledore had trained a new leader and given them the necessary information, then I'm sure they would have dealt with it. I think Dumbledore just didn't want to give up control even after his death. People everywhere and in all times of history have had to deal with harsh realities.

Okay, I'm a bit off topic. What information did Dumbledore give Snape? Did Snape know why Voldemort had to kill Harry personally? Did Snape know that the snake would need to die before Voldemort should be targeted? Did Dumbledore give Snape the necessary information to adapt to changing situations, or did Dumbledore plan to keep Snape dependant on his portrait to know what to do? Did he foresee that Snape could be cut off from the portraits directives as happened at the end of DH?

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Joanna Lupin - Sep 6, 2007 10:34 am (#45 of 85)
How do you know DD didn't mark Moody as his succesor? There's no evidence to prove your claim, and Moody isn't going to tell us as he died so soon.

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mona amon - Sep 6, 2007 8:05 pm (#46 of 85)
Did Snape know why Voldemort had to kill Harry personally?

No. Dumbledore explains why Harry has to die if Voldemort is to be made mortal again, and emphasises the fact that Voldemort has to kill him persoally, but does not tell Snape the reason, because then Snape will know that Harry is not really going to die. Rather hard on Severus, who died believing that he was sending Harry to his death, but of course Severus dying before the victory wasn't part of Dumbledore's plan.

Did Snape know that the snake would need to die before Voldemort should be targeted?

No, Dumbledore told Snape nothing about the horcruxes. He only had to pass on the Harrycrux information to Harry as soon as he saw that Voldemort was giving the snake extra protection. It was up to Harry to decide what to do about the Snake.

Did he foresee that Snape could be cut off from the portraits directives as happened at the end of DH?

I do not believe Dumbledore tried to forsee and control everything that would happen after his death. He had a plan, and put it into operation, and must have left the rest to chance. As it turned out, some things did not work out according to plan, like the Elder Wand business, but all worked out in the end.

How do you know DD didn't mark Moody as his succesor? There's no evidence to prove your claim, and Moody isn't going to tell us as he died so soon. (Joanna Lupin)

Moody is a character in a book, not a real person. He has no life beyond what the author tells us about him. If she does not tell us that Dumbledore marked Moody as his succesor, we know that Dumbledore did nothing of the sort.

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Joanna Lupin - Sep 7, 2007 2:30 am (#47 of 85)
I disagree. The author doesn't tell us a whole lot of things, and yet we feel comfortable enough assuming things. Moreover, we have a shred of evidence that Moody indeed was in charge of the Order after DD's demise. His behaviour in 'The Seven Potters' makes that quite clear in my mind. I think it is safe to assume that after Moody had died Kingsley took charge. It doesn't seem like the Order were left completely in the dark.

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haymoni - Sep 7, 2007 3:30 pm (#48 of 85)
Moody seems to be the kind of person who takes charge and thinks he's in charge no matter what is going on.

Dumbledore was in charge of the Order. I don't think he is the type to name a successor.

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Choices - Sep 8, 2007 8:46 am (#49 of 85)
Even though close and definitely on the same side, Moody and Dumbledore did not seem to see eye to eye on a number of subjects. We know Moody thought Dumbledore was foolish to trust Snape and also probably thought he was foolish to give second chances. I doubt that Dumbledore officially named Moody as his successor due to these differences, but I do think Moody was probably the "take charge" type and a senior member of the order, so I think he just stepped in and ran the show - at least the "move Harry to the Burrow" mission.

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Phelim Mcintyre - Sep 8, 2007 10:14 am (#50 of 85)
My guess is that Dumbledore gave certain tasks/responsibilities to different Order members. McGonnagel's reaction to Harry saying that he was working on Dumbledore's orders was one that suggests she knew that Harry had a job to do, that her role was to do with the School. Yes Snape was also charged to protect Hogwarts, but his was in his role as Voldemort's supposed lieutenant. I wonder if Snape would have been able to order the statues and armour to a protective role in the way McGonnagle did? I too wouldn't be suprised if the move and hiding of Harry was tasked to Moody by Dumbledore.

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