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Log inHarry Potter Book Read Along Thread - Deathly Hallows
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General Discussion (Continued)
Mona Sun Sep 25, 2011 8:28 am
legolas returns - Sep 8, 2007 11:53 am (#51 of 85)
Moody took charge in getting Harry from 4 PD in OOP. He was an the most experienced member of the order. He had faught against Dark Wizards for all of his adult life and did not underestimate any potential difficulties. The only reason the order did not collect him in HBP is because Dumbledore needed him to persuade Slughorn to come out of retirement. It was only natural for Moody to take charge again if he knew Harry was at Privet Drive and needed to be moved prior to turning 17. I think he must have discussed Harrys mothers protection with Dumbledore at some time otherwise he would not have known about it ending if Harry split from his family/turned 17.
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Madam Pince - Sep 8, 2007 4:29 pm (#52 of 85)
Picking a new leader for the resistance, like Moody, would have been the ideal situation. -Mrs. Brisbee
You know, when I read this, the first thought that popped into my mind was "Well, that wouldn't have worked out so well, because look how quick Moody got killed!" That got me to wondering if maybe Dumbledore thought of that also. He would've had to have known that active Order members, particularly "old soldiers" like Moody, would've been right in the thick of things in the battle against Voldy and the DEs. In other words, they are in a lot of danger. Would it be smart to trust one of them with information that he knows Harry is going to need at "the close?"
Think about it -- obviously Harry is in danger, but there's not much he can do about that. On the one hand, though, Harry is actually probably pretty safe from some random killing by some underling DE, because he knows Voldemort wants/needs to "save" Harry for himself. So yes, Harry's in danger, but only from one person really, as opposed to the myriad of threats the other Order members face.
Now let's think about Snape. Is he in immediate danger? Well, probably not. If things don't go as Dumbledore thinks they will, and Snape is caught by the Order and the Order is actually in charge of anything, then yes he might be punished, but it is unlikely that the "good guys" will actually kill him. Lock him in Azkaban, maybe. Kill, no. Which leaves him still available to get info to Harry somehow someway sometime. Now, is it likely that Snape will be in danger from Voldemort and the DEs? Probably not there, either. He's Voldy's right-hand man, feeding him info. The DEs may be jealous and not like him, but they're not about to kill him and risk Voldy's wrath. So Snape is a pretty safe bet to live at least a decent amount of time, to possibly enable him to get the necessary info to Harry.
The more I think about it, the more I think Dumbledore did leave a successor -- a two-headed one, named Harry/Snape.
Remember, Lupin and Kingsley tell us that the last words Dumbledore spoke to them were to trust in Harry. That's about as close to naming a successor as you're going to get. No, not a day-to-day leader, but I think the Order members were sufficiently capable to handle that sort of self-government themselves.
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Mrs Brisbee - Sep 13, 2007 7:06 am (#53 of 85)
Even though close and definitely on the same side, Moody and Dumbledore did not seem to see eye to eye on a number of subjects. We know Moody thought Dumbledore was foolish to trust Snape and also probably thought he was foolish to give second chances. I doubt that Dumbledore officially named Moody as his successor due to these differences, but I do think Moody was probably the "take charge" type and a senior member of the order, so I think he just stepped in and ran the show - at least the "move Harry to the Burrow" mission.-- Choices
I think this is a good assessment of Moody and Dumbledore's relationship. Moody seems to me like the kind of person who likes to think for himself based on the evidence, and would be unlikely to follow some unexplained plan of Dumbledore's after Dumbledore is dead just because Dumbledore said to do it. I think he'd want the facts, and would decide on a plan accordingly.
How do you know DD didn't mark Moody as his successor? There's no evidence to prove your claim, and Moody isn't going to tell us as he died so soon.-- Joanna Lupin
I don't think Moody was Dumbledore's chosen successor because we have Snape and Portrait Dumbledore plotting to betray the Order. If Moody was Dumbledore's successor then that would be his call to make, not theirs, and Moody wouldn't have had to be tricked into following their plan.
The more I think about it, the more I think Dumbledore did leave a successor -- a two-headed one, named Harry/Snape.
Remember, Lupin and Kingsley tell us that the last words Dumbledore spoke to them were to trust in Harry. That's about as close to naming a successor as you're going to get. No, not a day-to-day leader, but I think the Order members were sufficiently capable to handle that sort of self-government themselves.-- Madam Pince
Dumbledore's plan does seem to have been to leave fractures cells, with their own separate leaders, and then relied on his dead-self's portrait to control the separate elements through Snape. Dumbledore did want the Order to trust Harry, because he didn't want them to interfere with The Plan. Dumbledore did not leave any single informed leader behind, though. His plan seems to have relied on Snape having access to his portrait so Snape could figure out what to do through consulting it.
I think we do see that many of the Order and others are very capable. But their abilities are to their own credit, and show that they could make it in a world without Dumbledore pulling their strings. I think people outside of the necessity of Dumbledore's Plan were left in disarray by their former leader. It takes a while to recover from such disorder, but they did quite nicely on their own.
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Phelim Mcintyre - Sep 13, 2007 7:53 am (#54 of 85)
I'm not sure there was a single head of the Order. Each person seems to have had orders to obey. Harry (with Ron and Hermione) about the Horcruxes. Kingsley, Tonks and Arthur re the Ministry. Snape and Minerva about Hogwarts (different orders yes but still orders about the School). Snape re Voldemort and the Death Eaters (notice Snape knew nothing about the Horcuxes). Dumbledore gave as much information as needed to carry out the orders recognising that too much information in the hands of one person was dangerous. This is one of the reasons the trio had to work things out for themselves - because if he gave them too much information too soon 1) Harry would have run off in a hot-headed way and 2) it would have risked Voldemort picking up on the information.
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Mrs Brisbee - Oct 4, 2007 7:28 am (#55 of 85)
I'm still trying to figure out certain aspects of The Plan. Dumbledore seems to have several plans at once: Rid the world of Voldemort's Horcruxes; protect Hogwarts by placing Snape as headmaster; neutralizing the power of the Elder Wand by having Snape kill him.
How did the last plan fit into The Plan? Dumbledore said that he knew Voldemort was likely to seek the Elder Wand. Doesn't that make Snape's eventual murder by Voldemort almost a given? If Snape was key to the other two plans' success, then how can he be the expendable body in this plan? How do you all think Dumbledore expected this one to play out?
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La Chica - Oct 4, 2007 3:22 pm (#56 of 85)
Voldy didn?t figure out he had to kill the previous master till near the end, I think DD counted on that?that?s why he didn?t worry about Snape.
Okay, not to totally break off topic, but I was re-reading DH and something occurred to me about Harry?s lineage. It says he is a descendent from one of the Perverell brothers, the youngest. And the Gaunt family (Riddle?s) boasted that they were from the Perverell line as well?and that the Perverell line came from Slytherin?
Does that mean Harry and Riddle are related?even distantly?
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Choices - Oct 4, 2007 4:32 pm (#57 of 85)
If I remember correctly, in one of her post DH release web-chats, JKR said that they were distantly related. Does anyone else remember that?
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La Chica - Oct 4, 2007 4:49 pm (#58 of 85)
and wouldnt that make Harry related to Slytherin? or is that a different line altogether?
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Choices - Oct 4, 2007 5:11 pm (#59 of 85)
I looked it up and she did say that Harry and Voldemort were distantly related through the Peverells. As to the Slytherin part, I honestly don't know.
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PeskyPixie - Oct 4, 2007 5:11 pm (#60 of 85)
According to JKR, the Peverell family was an ancient line which died out long ago (i.e. no male heirs), but many modern day witches and wizards are descended from them. But ... Harry and Voldemort have got to be direct descendants haven't they? If they've got the family heirlooms of two of the brothers?
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La Chica - Oct 4, 2007 6:24 pm (#61 of 85)
thats what i thought, that harry had to be a direct descendent to have the cloak...it passed from father to son.
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PeskyPixie - Oct 4, 2007 7:15 pm (#62 of 85)
In 'King's Cross' DD claims that the Hallows pass from father to son and mother to daughter, but that's not really possible because at some point two fathers must have passed them to two daughters for the name Peverell to have changed to something else. Then, at some later point a mother must have passed the Cloak to a son in order for the Potters to be passing it down father to son.
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La Chica - Oct 4, 2007 7:49 pm (#63 of 85)
true, but it still makes Harry 'a' descendent of Slytherin, even if he wasnt a direct male line descendent. i just thought that was interesting, and couple that with he was born in 'Godric' Hollow...he really was half slytherin, half gryffindor.
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Mrs Brisbee - Oct 4, 2007 8:42 pm (#64 of 85)
Let's say Hubert and Blanch Peverell (grabbing names out of thin air for for illustrative purposes) have two sons, Bob Peverell and Lewis Peverell. Bob Peverell marries Salome Slytherin, and Lewis Peverell marries Mary Smith. Bob and Salome beget a line that ends with Tom Riddle, Jr; Lewis and Mary beget the line that contains the three brothers, and the youngest brother marries Suzy Lyon and their line ends with Harry Potter. Now both Harry and Voldemort are descendants of the Peverells, there lineage meeting at Hubert and Blanch. But only Voldemort is a descendant of Slytherin, and only Harry is descended from one of the brothers. Unless Bob and Lewis had a brother, and those were the three. But Harry can easily be a descendant of Peverell without being a descendant of Slytherin.
Now, if only the plot was so easy to unravel
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PeskyPixie - Oct 4, 2007 9:01 pm (#65 of 85)
LV would also have to be descended from one of the three brothers to have the Peverell ring (which is a Deathly Hallow) as a family heirloom.
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Mrs Brisbee - Oct 4, 2007 9:15 pm (#66 of 85)
Ah, so Bob and Lewis did have a brother! I shall name him Roger. Bob then is Voldy's ancestor, and Lewis is Harry's ancestor. Poor Roger. I think he must have died without issue.
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La Chica - Oct 5, 2007 8:40 am (#67 of 85)
Harry's however many greats grandfather was Ignorus. and i just lookd it up in HBP, you're right, Gaunt never says anything about the Pervells being related to Slytherin...i just had made that connection in my head. that makes so much more sense.
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Mrs Brisbee - Oct 8, 2007 6:17 pm (#68 of 85)
Okay, back to The Plan....
Voldy didn?t figure out he had to kill the previous master till near the end, I think DD counted on that?that?s why he didn?t worry about Snape.-- La Chica
But Dumbledore wouldn't know when exactly Voldemort would acquire the Elder Wand, or when Voldemort would decide to start killing the previous owners, or how soon Voldy would conclude that Snape was the final person that stood between him and mastery of the Elder Wand. The timing of that particular plot thread's resolution in the book was pure chance.
Dumbledore decided that most of his plans would hinge on Snape being able to do certain things. The Elder Wand plan though set Snape up to be murdered. This seems contradictory to me. I cannot figure out what Dumbledore had intended, because surely getting Snape killed just doesn't make sense. So what was Dumbledore thinking with the Elder Wand plan? Any ideas?
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PeskyPixie - Oct 9, 2007 7:43 am (#69 of 85)
Did DD know that LV had knowledge of the Elder wand and would try to acquire it?
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Mrs Brisbee - Oct 9, 2007 8:47 am (#70 of 85)
Here's what Dumbledore says when Harry asks him if he had expected Voldemort to go after the Elder Wand:
"I have been sure that he would try, ever since your wand beat Voldemort's in the graveyard of Little Hangleton...." (DH, Ch 35, "King's Cross")
So Dumbledore was expecting Voldemort to seek the Wand.
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PeskyPixie - Oct 9, 2007 9:33 am (#71 of 85)
Yikes! 'Poor Severus ...' indeed.
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Mrs Brisbee - Oct 9, 2007 10:03 am (#72 of 85)
Edited Oct 9, 2007 11:41 am
Yes, "Poor Severus..."
Dumbledore put several plots in motion revolving around Snape. Did Dumbledore really intend the Wand plot to lead back to Snape? I can't see how it cannot have done so once Voldemort started searching for the Elder wand, but maybe I'm missing something. It just doesn't make sense to make all this effort to put Snape into a favorable position, and entrust him with several vital missions, and then draw a target on him at the same time. I can't figure out how Dumbledore was expecting this to play out.
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Madam Pince - Oct 9, 2007 2:11 pm (#73 of 85)
Earlier you guys were talking about Harry and Voldemort being related? (I missed out, so this is going back a couple posts...)
Anyway, yes, it seems that Harry and Voldemort are related. (We hashed this out awhile ago on some other thread...) However, they are collateral relatives, not lineal. I think you guys had it right earlier -- there were the three Peverell brothers, who somewhere along the line had daughters so the last name Peverell died out, although the bloodline continued through a maternal line. Ignotus' line ended up with the Potters, which is how James ended up inheriting the Cloak. The "Ring-Peverell- Brother's" line ended up with the Gaunts (it could've been via Slytherin along the way, but not necessarily -- Marvolo told Ogden that the ring was Peverell's, and that the locket was Slytherin's. Maybe both were Slytherin's, for example if a female Peverell married Slytherin's grandfather or something, but we don't know for sure, I don't think. Slytherin isn't necessarily a Peverell descendant, although he is definitely a Gaunt ancestor.)
So, Harry and Voldemort are definitely collaterally related by virtue of having as common ancestors the parents of the Peverell brothers. But Harry and Slytherin may or may not be collaterally related. Does that make sense? I wish I could draw a tree... It gets confusing even to me, and I've thought it out a bit. It's been a long time ago though, so I may be missing something.
Anyway, back to your regularly scheduled discussion of Dumbledore's Grand Plan....
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Mrs Brisbee - Oct 10, 2007 4:58 am (#74 of 85)
"Collateral relatives"-- thank you for the name of it, Madam Pince! Learn something new everyday.
As for The Plan (I do like "Dumbledore's Grand Plan" better), I'm about ready to declare the whole thing illogical and inexplicable, and give up trying to think about it. Everyone else seems to have run out of ideas about it too. My logic-driven brain and Rowling's metaphor-driven brain don't always see eye to eye. I now think Rowling just wanted Dumbledore, Snape, and Harry to be The Main Characters of the final book, to juxtapose how one didn't accept death, one didn't accept life, and one learned to accept both of them and move on. My enjoyment of the book is still marred by Dumbledore's Grand Plan, but, oh well, not much I can do about that.
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PeskyPixie - Oct 10, 2007 10:02 am (#75 of 85)
"one didn't accept death, one didn't accept life, and one learned to accept both of them and move on." -Mrs Brisbee
Interesting thought. Please elaborate.
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Choices - Oct 10, 2007 10:34 am (#76 of 85)
Yes, I'm curious also. Dumbledore wasn't afraid of death and he certainly seemed to be "amused" by life. I think he accepted death as just a part of life.
I have never really thought of life or death in connection to Snape. He certainly lived life on the edge and put himself at risk of death many times. Due to certain circumstances, I do not think he particularly valued his life, but we really have no evidence that he would welcome death. I think he accepted death as just a job hazard.
Harry to a degree was a fatalist - especially near the end. He realized that he might indeed have to die to vanquish Voldemort. I don't think he wanted to die, but he accepted that he might. I think he embraced life in spite of the difficult and sad things that had happened to him during his brief lifetime. I'm guessing he is the one you think accepted both the possibility of life or death and moved on.
Mrs. Brisbee, in your opinion, who didn't accept life, who didn't accept death and who accepted both?
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John Bumbledore - Oct 10, 2007 11:47 am (#77 of 85)
Well, my logic-driven brain would take Mrs Brisbee's words in respective order. She fist list "Dumbledore, Snape, and Harry" then her observations that "one didn't accept death, one didn't accept life, and one learned to accept both of them and move on."
To my logic, order matters in parallel lists; thus I take it that she meant Dumbledore didn't accept death [such as his mother's and sister's perhaps?), Snape didn't accept life [with out Lily?], and Harry learned to accept both.
I could also see Snape and Dumbledore exchange places in the paring with acceptance of life or death. Albus was ready for death (perhaps feeling too long a separation from his mother and sister) and Snape (a death eater) didn't accept death (LV and the DEs sought to overcome or defeat death).
I think a re-read of DH is in order (for me) to get a better idea of "Dumbledore's Grand Plan." I find this interesting.
John Bumbledore <)B^D?
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Mrs Brisbee - Oct 12, 2007 6:01 am (#78 of 85)
John has indeed correctly deciphered my sentence. Alas, for me thinking a logical thought doesn't always translate into writing a logical thought, so forgive me if I ramble while trying to explain my way of thinking. Dumbledore didn't accept death; Snape didn't accept life; Harry learned to accept both and move on.
Harry to a degree was a fatalist - especially near the end. He realized that he might indeed have to die to vanquish Voldemort. I don't think he wanted to die, but he accepted that he might. I think he embraced life in spite of the difficult and sad things that had happened to him during his brief lifetime. I'm guessing he is the one you think accepted both the possibility of life or death and moved on.-- Choices
I think you are right that Harry was somewhat of a fatalist. He has been dogged by death since before he was even born! The Prophecy predicts his life and death struggle before he even sees this world. His parents are murdered simply because they stand between Voldemort's and his intended victim Baby Harry. And then Harry is shunted off to his Muggle relatives until the age of eleven. When Harry returns to the magical world, it is to find he has a famous doppleganger. I can't find my copy of PS/SS, but do you all remember when Harry is on the Hogwarts express, and Fred and George ask him if he is Harry Potter and Harry says something like, "Oh him. I mean yes". There was that dichotomy between Harry the normal kid and Harry the Hero that persisted through all the books. We also have the centaurs in PS/SS, and Harry is certain that they have predicted his death and that's why they do not wish to interfere. This carries over to DH, when the centaurs don't enter the fray until after Harry has "died". So this huge thing of life and death has always hung over Harry, and I think he always had a hard time reconciling it to his normal, everyday existence.
I don't think accepting death is desiring it, or having the absence of fear, but rather comprehending that death is part of the grander scheme of things. I think Luna is a good example of a character that accepts life and death. She can hear the voices from beyond the Veil, but she is not mesmerized by them. She comforts Harry after Sirius's death with her belief that someday we will see our loved ones again. But she herself is in no hurry to get there, as much as she loves her mother. We see from her bedroom in DH how much joy she got from her friends in the here and now.
For Harry, he realizes at the end of OotP that he has always been a marked man, and finds it a bit surreal that he is destined to either kill or be killed. In HBP, Harry seemed to be riding his popularity without to much in depth thought about it, like he didn't want to think about what it meant. He describes relationship with Ginny as something from a dream. He can't accept that he can have a relationship with her in a world where Voldemort exists. So the relationship with Ginny has to go, even though Harry never stops thinking about her. Harry simply can't see a future for himself beyond Voldemort.
It is interesting that Rowling put in DH, between the chapter list and the beginning of the first chapter, two excerpts about life and death. This leads me to think that this is what she wants people to think about as the main theme of DH. At the end, Harry does choose death to save everyone. He uses the Resurrection Stone not to drag the dead to himself, but to aid himself to go to them. But once "dead", he is given another choice: To go "On', or to return to the land of the living. Harry chooses life for the same reason he chose death, out of compassion for others. I think his accepting death allowed him to choose life.
Finally at the end we see that Harry can actually picture a future. He can now see that he has months and years ahead of him to be with Ginny, for example. In this light too the epilogue makes sense, and I can see why the author thought it important to put it in. We see Harry has lived. He has married and had children. The dead are honored because he can see what they have contributed to the living. Harry accepts life.
Okay, this was rambling and a lot less detailed than I intended, but I am out of time. I'll try to explain my views on Dumbledore and Snape later.
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PeskyPixie - Oct 12, 2007 10:09 am (#79 of 85)
D'oh! Your views on DD and Snape were the ones I was more interested in hearing about! (not that I didn't appreciate your thoughts on Harry, of course!)
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Choices - Oct 12, 2007 4:11 pm (#80 of 85)
Me too, PeskyPixie. In what way do you think that Dumbledore didn't accept death and in what way did Snape not accept life, Mrs. Brisbee?
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Chemyst - Oct 14, 2007 12:00 pm (#81 of 85)
Going back a few days...
So Dumbledore was expecting Voldemort to seek the Wand.
It just doesn't make sense to make all this effort to put Snape into a favorable position, and entrust him with several vital missions, and then draw a target on him at the same time. I can't figure out how Dumbledore was expecting this to play out.
Why would Snape have a target on him? If DD's plan had worked, the Elder Wand would have been de-activated at the point DD died undefeated. Do you mean that Voldemort would have been angry and targeted Snape because Snape had turned the Elder Wand into a worthless stick by AK'ing a master who planned to die?
The flaw was that the Elder Wand had changed masters to Draco only moments earlier. Dumbledore was expecting Voldemort to seek a wand which woud be de-activated and impotent upon DD's arranged death. Snape could not really tell Voldemort that Draco was the new master– either Voldemort would have killed Snape anyway, or Snape would have died from the Unbreakable Vow for selling out Draco.
( ...and Snape had not really known about the Elder Wand at the time of DD's death, though he may have been told something later by DD's portrait. We can't be sure.)
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PeskyPixie - Oct 14, 2007 12:27 pm (#82 of 85)
Why would Snape have a target on him? If DD's plan had worked, the Elder Wand would have been de-activated at the point DD died undefeated. Do you mean that Voldemort would have been angry and targeted Snape because Snape had turned the Elder Wand into a worthless stick by AK'ing a master who planned to die? -Chemyst
Only DD and Snape know that Snape does not defeat DD. To the rest of the world Snape is DD's murderer. Thus, if DD knows that LV will begin to hunt down the legendary Elder Wand, once it is traced down to DD Snape is in extreme danger as he is the one who supposedly defeats DD. Even if Draco does not interfere with DD and Snape's plan and it goes off without a hitch, nobody knows that the Elder Wand no longer has extraordinary powers.
I suppose DD could hope that LV is unfamiliar enough with wandlore to believe that simply possessing the Elder Wand is enough to gain its allegiance? If so, that is still an enormous gamble with Snape's life.
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Luna Logic - Oct 15, 2007 12:00 am (#83 of 85)
Edited by Oct 15, 2007 1:04 am
PeskyPixie : I suppose DD could hope that LV is unfamiliar enough with wandlore. I think that is the explanation we are suppose to accept. But Dumbledore should have changed his mind at the time of Ollivander's disappearance (many months before Dumbledore's death). The probability that Voldemort could dispose of Ollivander's knowledge was high.
For me, the recent discussion points an enormous hole in "Dumbledore's plan with wands":
1.Voldemort had to ask himself questions about the power of his wand, and Dumbledore knew it (DH).
2.Thus he had to seek knowledge from some wandmakers. 3.As soon as Voldemort learned about wandlore, given that he believed, like anybody, that Snape was the killer of Dumbledore (PeskyPixie post above), he would have to defeat Snape.
(Happily for the story, the "as soon as" takes always a school year long for Voldemort!)
The major flaws are for me 1. and especially 2. : the disappearance of Ollivander should have alerted Dumbledore and made him think harder about his "plan" (which was weak anyway, because other wandmakers, less scrupulous, did exist around the magic world...
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Mrs Brisbee - Oct 15, 2007 6:55 am (#84 of 85)
Chemyst, I'd say PeskyPixie summed up the flaw in Dumbledore's wand plan quite well, and Luna Logic provides yet another point against it: Dumbledore knew about Ollivander's disappearance, and probably knew through Snape that Ollivander was in Voldemort's clutches.
Backing up to the life and death thing, I think I'll add one more to my list: Dumbledore didn't accept death; Snape didn't accept life; Harry learned to accept both and move on; and Tom Riddle never learned to accept life or death, and could never move on in either one. Several people asked that I make my case for my views on Dumbledore and Snape. I hope that it isn't necessary to make such a case for Voldemort.
Now, Rowling decided to name this book Deathly Hallows, after a set of three powerful magical items that potentially make their possessor "Master of Death". So what is it to be Master of Death? Here Harry is at his parents' grave, looking at the inscription:
"The last enemy that shall be defeated is death"? A horrible thought had come to him, and with it a kind of panic. 'Isn't that a Death Eater idea? Why is that there"?
"It doesn't mean defeating death in the way the Death Eaters mean it, Harry,' said Hermione, her voice gentle. 'It means, you know, living beyond death. Living after death." -- (DH, Ch. 16, ?Godric?s Hollow)
Most important, those two quotes at the beginning, before the first chapter, need to be noted. An excerpt from the first:
Now hear, you blissful powers underground--
answer the call, send help.
Bless the children, give them triumph now.
And from the second:
Death is but the crossing of worlds, as friends do the seas; they live in one another still.
The first is about finding a place for life amidst death; the second is about finding a place for the dead amidst life. My premise is that this is the paradigm for Deathly Hallows, and that Rowling has chosen the characters who will be central to the plot because they illustrate her theme.
That quote about finding the dead within repeats an idea presented earlier in the series by Dumbledore, at the And The Moral Of The Story end of Prisoner of Azkaban: "You think the dead we love ever truly leave us? You think that we don't recall them more clearly than ever in times of great trouble? Your father is alive in you, Harry, and shows himself most plainly when you have need of him...." (PoA, Ch 22, "Owl Post Again")
This is where I think Dumbledore has gone wrong, because when it comes to his actions, he doesn't seem to accept that the "dead we love" can be found within.
Note that failure to accept is not the same thing as fear. He just has a hard time finding a place for it. He says so himself:
"Master of death, Harry, master of Death! Was I better, ultimately, than Voldemort?'
"Of course you were,' said Harry. 'Of course,how can you ask that? You never killed if you could help avoid it!?
"True, true,' said Dumbledore, and he was like a child seeking reassurance. 'Yet I too sought to conquer death, Harry.'-- (DH, Ch. 35, King's Cross)
Voldemort has sought to conquer death by controlling of it: Finding immortality for himself, and wanting to kill others or not as the whim takes him, imagining himself to have the final right over life and death.
Dumbledore's failure is more subtle; he wants the dead to come to him, arise from some external source. So he puts on the ring containing the Resurrection Stone, which would have brought back those at peace. Dumbledore himself says in King's Cross that he was unworthy to unite the Hallows, because he used them for the wrong reasons. Harry uses them for the right reasons. Dumbledore says to Harry: "... You are the true master of death, because the true master does not seek to run away from Death...."-- (DH, Ch 35, "King's Cross")
Dumbledore also seems to have a hard time accepting that after he is dead, those he leaves behind will be able to find him within themselves. Instead, he tries to maintain an external presence. He withholds information from the living, and he attempts to keep control of his plots even after his death. If he could trust that people could grow and learn from his wisdom, it wouldn't be necessary.
I realize that my view that Dumbledore was wrong to set up his plots as he did and didn't trust more in the living are unpopular , but I do think that is what he should have done, and I think that the point of his actions to the plot was that he should have done so. He should have accepted death, and accepted that his legacy could have been strong enough in the hearts and minds of those he influenced in life to carry through with what needed to be done.
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Soul Search - Oct 15, 2007 8:09 am (#85 of 85)
I am not sure I can accept the idea that Dumbledore had a "plan." A "plan" in the sense of a detailed series of steps and actions that would occur. Dumbledore had a goal, Voldemort's destruction, and he selected the main players: Voldemort, Harry, and Snape. He also set up supporting characters: Hermione, Ron, the Order, etc.
He knew the three main characters well, to the point where he could be confident of their actions and responses.
He then set things in motion with his death. He couldn't know exactly how the future would play out, but he was confident his ultimate goal would be achieved.
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Mrs Brisbee, very good analysis.
Moody took charge in getting Harry from 4 PD in OOP. He was an the most experienced member of the order. He had faught against Dark Wizards for all of his adult life and did not underestimate any potential difficulties. The only reason the order did not collect him in HBP is because Dumbledore needed him to persuade Slughorn to come out of retirement. It was only natural for Moody to take charge again if he knew Harry was at Privet Drive and needed to be moved prior to turning 17. I think he must have discussed Harrys mothers protection with Dumbledore at some time otherwise he would not have known about it ending if Harry split from his family/turned 17.
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Madam Pince - Sep 8, 2007 4:29 pm (#52 of 85)
Picking a new leader for the resistance, like Moody, would have been the ideal situation. -Mrs. Brisbee
You know, when I read this, the first thought that popped into my mind was "Well, that wouldn't have worked out so well, because look how quick Moody got killed!" That got me to wondering if maybe Dumbledore thought of that also. He would've had to have known that active Order members, particularly "old soldiers" like Moody, would've been right in the thick of things in the battle against Voldy and the DEs. In other words, they are in a lot of danger. Would it be smart to trust one of them with information that he knows Harry is going to need at "the close?"
Think about it -- obviously Harry is in danger, but there's not much he can do about that. On the one hand, though, Harry is actually probably pretty safe from some random killing by some underling DE, because he knows Voldemort wants/needs to "save" Harry for himself. So yes, Harry's in danger, but only from one person really, as opposed to the myriad of threats the other Order members face.
Now let's think about Snape. Is he in immediate danger? Well, probably not. If things don't go as Dumbledore thinks they will, and Snape is caught by the Order and the Order is actually in charge of anything, then yes he might be punished, but it is unlikely that the "good guys" will actually kill him. Lock him in Azkaban, maybe. Kill, no. Which leaves him still available to get info to Harry somehow someway sometime. Now, is it likely that Snape will be in danger from Voldemort and the DEs? Probably not there, either. He's Voldy's right-hand man, feeding him info. The DEs may be jealous and not like him, but they're not about to kill him and risk Voldy's wrath. So Snape is a pretty safe bet to live at least a decent amount of time, to possibly enable him to get the necessary info to Harry.
The more I think about it, the more I think Dumbledore did leave a successor -- a two-headed one, named Harry/Snape.
Remember, Lupin and Kingsley tell us that the last words Dumbledore spoke to them were to trust in Harry. That's about as close to naming a successor as you're going to get. No, not a day-to-day leader, but I think the Order members were sufficiently capable to handle that sort of self-government themselves.
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Mrs Brisbee - Sep 13, 2007 7:06 am (#53 of 85)
Even though close and definitely on the same side, Moody and Dumbledore did not seem to see eye to eye on a number of subjects. We know Moody thought Dumbledore was foolish to trust Snape and also probably thought he was foolish to give second chances. I doubt that Dumbledore officially named Moody as his successor due to these differences, but I do think Moody was probably the "take charge" type and a senior member of the order, so I think he just stepped in and ran the show - at least the "move Harry to the Burrow" mission.-- Choices
I think this is a good assessment of Moody and Dumbledore's relationship. Moody seems to me like the kind of person who likes to think for himself based on the evidence, and would be unlikely to follow some unexplained plan of Dumbledore's after Dumbledore is dead just because Dumbledore said to do it. I think he'd want the facts, and would decide on a plan accordingly.
How do you know DD didn't mark Moody as his successor? There's no evidence to prove your claim, and Moody isn't going to tell us as he died so soon.-- Joanna Lupin
I don't think Moody was Dumbledore's chosen successor because we have Snape and Portrait Dumbledore plotting to betray the Order. If Moody was Dumbledore's successor then that would be his call to make, not theirs, and Moody wouldn't have had to be tricked into following their plan.
The more I think about it, the more I think Dumbledore did leave a successor -- a two-headed one, named Harry/Snape.
Remember, Lupin and Kingsley tell us that the last words Dumbledore spoke to them were to trust in Harry. That's about as close to naming a successor as you're going to get. No, not a day-to-day leader, but I think the Order members were sufficiently capable to handle that sort of self-government themselves.-- Madam Pince
Dumbledore's plan does seem to have been to leave fractures cells, with their own separate leaders, and then relied on his dead-self's portrait to control the separate elements through Snape. Dumbledore did want the Order to trust Harry, because he didn't want them to interfere with The Plan. Dumbledore did not leave any single informed leader behind, though. His plan seems to have relied on Snape having access to his portrait so Snape could figure out what to do through consulting it.
I think we do see that many of the Order and others are very capable. But their abilities are to their own credit, and show that they could make it in a world without Dumbledore pulling their strings. I think people outside of the necessity of Dumbledore's Plan were left in disarray by their former leader. It takes a while to recover from such disorder, but they did quite nicely on their own.
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Phelim Mcintyre - Sep 13, 2007 7:53 am (#54 of 85)
I'm not sure there was a single head of the Order. Each person seems to have had orders to obey. Harry (with Ron and Hermione) about the Horcruxes. Kingsley, Tonks and Arthur re the Ministry. Snape and Minerva about Hogwarts (different orders yes but still orders about the School). Snape re Voldemort and the Death Eaters (notice Snape knew nothing about the Horcuxes). Dumbledore gave as much information as needed to carry out the orders recognising that too much information in the hands of one person was dangerous. This is one of the reasons the trio had to work things out for themselves - because if he gave them too much information too soon 1) Harry would have run off in a hot-headed way and 2) it would have risked Voldemort picking up on the information.
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Mrs Brisbee - Oct 4, 2007 7:28 am (#55 of 85)
I'm still trying to figure out certain aspects of The Plan. Dumbledore seems to have several plans at once: Rid the world of Voldemort's Horcruxes; protect Hogwarts by placing Snape as headmaster; neutralizing the power of the Elder Wand by having Snape kill him.
How did the last plan fit into The Plan? Dumbledore said that he knew Voldemort was likely to seek the Elder Wand. Doesn't that make Snape's eventual murder by Voldemort almost a given? If Snape was key to the other two plans' success, then how can he be the expendable body in this plan? How do you all think Dumbledore expected this one to play out?
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La Chica - Oct 4, 2007 3:22 pm (#56 of 85)
Voldy didn?t figure out he had to kill the previous master till near the end, I think DD counted on that?that?s why he didn?t worry about Snape.
Okay, not to totally break off topic, but I was re-reading DH and something occurred to me about Harry?s lineage. It says he is a descendent from one of the Perverell brothers, the youngest. And the Gaunt family (Riddle?s) boasted that they were from the Perverell line as well?and that the Perverell line came from Slytherin?
Does that mean Harry and Riddle are related?even distantly?
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Choices - Oct 4, 2007 4:32 pm (#57 of 85)
If I remember correctly, in one of her post DH release web-chats, JKR said that they were distantly related. Does anyone else remember that?
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La Chica - Oct 4, 2007 4:49 pm (#58 of 85)
and wouldnt that make Harry related to Slytherin? or is that a different line altogether?
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Choices - Oct 4, 2007 5:11 pm (#59 of 85)
I looked it up and she did say that Harry and Voldemort were distantly related through the Peverells. As to the Slytherin part, I honestly don't know.
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PeskyPixie - Oct 4, 2007 5:11 pm (#60 of 85)
According to JKR, the Peverell family was an ancient line which died out long ago (i.e. no male heirs), but many modern day witches and wizards are descended from them. But ... Harry and Voldemort have got to be direct descendants haven't they? If they've got the family heirlooms of two of the brothers?
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La Chica - Oct 4, 2007 6:24 pm (#61 of 85)
thats what i thought, that harry had to be a direct descendent to have the cloak...it passed from father to son.
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PeskyPixie - Oct 4, 2007 7:15 pm (#62 of 85)
In 'King's Cross' DD claims that the Hallows pass from father to son and mother to daughter, but that's not really possible because at some point two fathers must have passed them to two daughters for the name Peverell to have changed to something else. Then, at some later point a mother must have passed the Cloak to a son in order for the Potters to be passing it down father to son.
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La Chica - Oct 4, 2007 7:49 pm (#63 of 85)
true, but it still makes Harry 'a' descendent of Slytherin, even if he wasnt a direct male line descendent. i just thought that was interesting, and couple that with he was born in 'Godric' Hollow...he really was half slytherin, half gryffindor.
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Mrs Brisbee - Oct 4, 2007 8:42 pm (#64 of 85)
Let's say Hubert and Blanch Peverell (grabbing names out of thin air for for illustrative purposes) have two sons, Bob Peverell and Lewis Peverell. Bob Peverell marries Salome Slytherin, and Lewis Peverell marries Mary Smith. Bob and Salome beget a line that ends with Tom Riddle, Jr; Lewis and Mary beget the line that contains the three brothers, and the youngest brother marries Suzy Lyon and their line ends with Harry Potter. Now both Harry and Voldemort are descendants of the Peverells, there lineage meeting at Hubert and Blanch. But only Voldemort is a descendant of Slytherin, and only Harry is descended from one of the brothers. Unless Bob and Lewis had a brother, and those were the three. But Harry can easily be a descendant of Peverell without being a descendant of Slytherin.
Now, if only the plot was so easy to unravel
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PeskyPixie - Oct 4, 2007 9:01 pm (#65 of 85)
LV would also have to be descended from one of the three brothers to have the Peverell ring (which is a Deathly Hallow) as a family heirloom.
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Mrs Brisbee - Oct 4, 2007 9:15 pm (#66 of 85)
Ah, so Bob and Lewis did have a brother! I shall name him Roger. Bob then is Voldy's ancestor, and Lewis is Harry's ancestor. Poor Roger. I think he must have died without issue.
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La Chica - Oct 5, 2007 8:40 am (#67 of 85)
Harry's however many greats grandfather was Ignorus. and i just lookd it up in HBP, you're right, Gaunt never says anything about the Pervells being related to Slytherin...i just had made that connection in my head. that makes so much more sense.
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Mrs Brisbee - Oct 8, 2007 6:17 pm (#68 of 85)
Okay, back to The Plan....
Voldy didn?t figure out he had to kill the previous master till near the end, I think DD counted on that?that?s why he didn?t worry about Snape.-- La Chica
But Dumbledore wouldn't know when exactly Voldemort would acquire the Elder Wand, or when Voldemort would decide to start killing the previous owners, or how soon Voldy would conclude that Snape was the final person that stood between him and mastery of the Elder Wand. The timing of that particular plot thread's resolution in the book was pure chance.
Dumbledore decided that most of his plans would hinge on Snape being able to do certain things. The Elder Wand plan though set Snape up to be murdered. This seems contradictory to me. I cannot figure out what Dumbledore had intended, because surely getting Snape killed just doesn't make sense. So what was Dumbledore thinking with the Elder Wand plan? Any ideas?
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PeskyPixie - Oct 9, 2007 7:43 am (#69 of 85)
Did DD know that LV had knowledge of the Elder wand and would try to acquire it?
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Mrs Brisbee - Oct 9, 2007 8:47 am (#70 of 85)
Here's what Dumbledore says when Harry asks him if he had expected Voldemort to go after the Elder Wand:
"I have been sure that he would try, ever since your wand beat Voldemort's in the graveyard of Little Hangleton...." (DH, Ch 35, "King's Cross")
So Dumbledore was expecting Voldemort to seek the Wand.
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PeskyPixie - Oct 9, 2007 9:33 am (#71 of 85)
Yikes! 'Poor Severus ...' indeed.
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Mrs Brisbee - Oct 9, 2007 10:03 am (#72 of 85)
Edited Oct 9, 2007 11:41 am
Yes, "Poor Severus..."
Dumbledore put several plots in motion revolving around Snape. Did Dumbledore really intend the Wand plot to lead back to Snape? I can't see how it cannot have done so once Voldemort started searching for the Elder wand, but maybe I'm missing something. It just doesn't make sense to make all this effort to put Snape into a favorable position, and entrust him with several vital missions, and then draw a target on him at the same time. I can't figure out how Dumbledore was expecting this to play out.
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Madam Pince - Oct 9, 2007 2:11 pm (#73 of 85)
Earlier you guys were talking about Harry and Voldemort being related? (I missed out, so this is going back a couple posts...)
Anyway, yes, it seems that Harry and Voldemort are related. (We hashed this out awhile ago on some other thread...) However, they are collateral relatives, not lineal. I think you guys had it right earlier -- there were the three Peverell brothers, who somewhere along the line had daughters so the last name Peverell died out, although the bloodline continued through a maternal line. Ignotus' line ended up with the Potters, which is how James ended up inheriting the Cloak. The "Ring-Peverell- Brother's" line ended up with the Gaunts (it could've been via Slytherin along the way, but not necessarily -- Marvolo told Ogden that the ring was Peverell's, and that the locket was Slytherin's. Maybe both were Slytherin's, for example if a female Peverell married Slytherin's grandfather or something, but we don't know for sure, I don't think. Slytherin isn't necessarily a Peverell descendant, although he is definitely a Gaunt ancestor.)
So, Harry and Voldemort are definitely collaterally related by virtue of having as common ancestors the parents of the Peverell brothers. But Harry and Slytherin may or may not be collaterally related. Does that make sense? I wish I could draw a tree... It gets confusing even to me, and I've thought it out a bit. It's been a long time ago though, so I may be missing something.
Anyway, back to your regularly scheduled discussion of Dumbledore's Grand Plan....
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Mrs Brisbee - Oct 10, 2007 4:58 am (#74 of 85)
"Collateral relatives"-- thank you for the name of it, Madam Pince! Learn something new everyday.
As for The Plan (I do like "Dumbledore's Grand Plan" better), I'm about ready to declare the whole thing illogical and inexplicable, and give up trying to think about it. Everyone else seems to have run out of ideas about it too. My logic-driven brain and Rowling's metaphor-driven brain don't always see eye to eye. I now think Rowling just wanted Dumbledore, Snape, and Harry to be The Main Characters of the final book, to juxtapose how one didn't accept death, one didn't accept life, and one learned to accept both of them and move on. My enjoyment of the book is still marred by Dumbledore's Grand Plan, but, oh well, not much I can do about that.
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PeskyPixie - Oct 10, 2007 10:02 am (#75 of 85)
"one didn't accept death, one didn't accept life, and one learned to accept both of them and move on." -Mrs Brisbee
Interesting thought. Please elaborate.
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Choices - Oct 10, 2007 10:34 am (#76 of 85)
Yes, I'm curious also. Dumbledore wasn't afraid of death and he certainly seemed to be "amused" by life. I think he accepted death as just a part of life.
I have never really thought of life or death in connection to Snape. He certainly lived life on the edge and put himself at risk of death many times. Due to certain circumstances, I do not think he particularly valued his life, but we really have no evidence that he would welcome death. I think he accepted death as just a job hazard.
Harry to a degree was a fatalist - especially near the end. He realized that he might indeed have to die to vanquish Voldemort. I don't think he wanted to die, but he accepted that he might. I think he embraced life in spite of the difficult and sad things that had happened to him during his brief lifetime. I'm guessing he is the one you think accepted both the possibility of life or death and moved on.
Mrs. Brisbee, in your opinion, who didn't accept life, who didn't accept death and who accepted both?
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John Bumbledore - Oct 10, 2007 11:47 am (#77 of 85)
Well, my logic-driven brain would take Mrs Brisbee's words in respective order. She fist list "Dumbledore, Snape, and Harry" then her observations that "one didn't accept death, one didn't accept life, and one learned to accept both of them and move on."
To my logic, order matters in parallel lists; thus I take it that she meant Dumbledore didn't accept death [such as his mother's and sister's perhaps?), Snape didn't accept life [with out Lily?], and Harry learned to accept both.
I could also see Snape and Dumbledore exchange places in the paring with acceptance of life or death. Albus was ready for death (perhaps feeling too long a separation from his mother and sister) and Snape (a death eater) didn't accept death (LV and the DEs sought to overcome or defeat death).
I think a re-read of DH is in order (for me) to get a better idea of "Dumbledore's Grand Plan." I find this interesting.
John Bumbledore <)B^D?
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Mrs Brisbee - Oct 12, 2007 6:01 am (#78 of 85)
John has indeed correctly deciphered my sentence. Alas, for me thinking a logical thought doesn't always translate into writing a logical thought, so forgive me if I ramble while trying to explain my way of thinking. Dumbledore didn't accept death; Snape didn't accept life; Harry learned to accept both and move on.
Harry to a degree was a fatalist - especially near the end. He realized that he might indeed have to die to vanquish Voldemort. I don't think he wanted to die, but he accepted that he might. I think he embraced life in spite of the difficult and sad things that had happened to him during his brief lifetime. I'm guessing he is the one you think accepted both the possibility of life or death and moved on.-- Choices
I think you are right that Harry was somewhat of a fatalist. He has been dogged by death since before he was even born! The Prophecy predicts his life and death struggle before he even sees this world. His parents are murdered simply because they stand between Voldemort's and his intended victim Baby Harry. And then Harry is shunted off to his Muggle relatives until the age of eleven. When Harry returns to the magical world, it is to find he has a famous doppleganger. I can't find my copy of PS/SS, but do you all remember when Harry is on the Hogwarts express, and Fred and George ask him if he is Harry Potter and Harry says something like, "Oh him. I mean yes". There was that dichotomy between Harry the normal kid and Harry the Hero that persisted through all the books. We also have the centaurs in PS/SS, and Harry is certain that they have predicted his death and that's why they do not wish to interfere. This carries over to DH, when the centaurs don't enter the fray until after Harry has "died". So this huge thing of life and death has always hung over Harry, and I think he always had a hard time reconciling it to his normal, everyday existence.
I don't think accepting death is desiring it, or having the absence of fear, but rather comprehending that death is part of the grander scheme of things. I think Luna is a good example of a character that accepts life and death. She can hear the voices from beyond the Veil, but she is not mesmerized by them. She comforts Harry after Sirius's death with her belief that someday we will see our loved ones again. But she herself is in no hurry to get there, as much as she loves her mother. We see from her bedroom in DH how much joy she got from her friends in the here and now.
For Harry, he realizes at the end of OotP that he has always been a marked man, and finds it a bit surreal that he is destined to either kill or be killed. In HBP, Harry seemed to be riding his popularity without to much in depth thought about it, like he didn't want to think about what it meant. He describes relationship with Ginny as something from a dream. He can't accept that he can have a relationship with her in a world where Voldemort exists. So the relationship with Ginny has to go, even though Harry never stops thinking about her. Harry simply can't see a future for himself beyond Voldemort.
It is interesting that Rowling put in DH, between the chapter list and the beginning of the first chapter, two excerpts about life and death. This leads me to think that this is what she wants people to think about as the main theme of DH. At the end, Harry does choose death to save everyone. He uses the Resurrection Stone not to drag the dead to himself, but to aid himself to go to them. But once "dead", he is given another choice: To go "On', or to return to the land of the living. Harry chooses life for the same reason he chose death, out of compassion for others. I think his accepting death allowed him to choose life.
Finally at the end we see that Harry can actually picture a future. He can now see that he has months and years ahead of him to be with Ginny, for example. In this light too the epilogue makes sense, and I can see why the author thought it important to put it in. We see Harry has lived. He has married and had children. The dead are honored because he can see what they have contributed to the living. Harry accepts life.
Okay, this was rambling and a lot less detailed than I intended, but I am out of time. I'll try to explain my views on Dumbledore and Snape later.
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PeskyPixie - Oct 12, 2007 10:09 am (#79 of 85)
D'oh! Your views on DD and Snape were the ones I was more interested in hearing about! (not that I didn't appreciate your thoughts on Harry, of course!)
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Choices - Oct 12, 2007 4:11 pm (#80 of 85)
Me too, PeskyPixie. In what way do you think that Dumbledore didn't accept death and in what way did Snape not accept life, Mrs. Brisbee?
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Chemyst - Oct 14, 2007 12:00 pm (#81 of 85)
Going back a few days...
So Dumbledore was expecting Voldemort to seek the Wand.
It just doesn't make sense to make all this effort to put Snape into a favorable position, and entrust him with several vital missions, and then draw a target on him at the same time. I can't figure out how Dumbledore was expecting this to play out.
Why would Snape have a target on him? If DD's plan had worked, the Elder Wand would have been de-activated at the point DD died undefeated. Do you mean that Voldemort would have been angry and targeted Snape because Snape had turned the Elder Wand into a worthless stick by AK'ing a master who planned to die?
The flaw was that the Elder Wand had changed masters to Draco only moments earlier. Dumbledore was expecting Voldemort to seek a wand which woud be de-activated and impotent upon DD's arranged death. Snape could not really tell Voldemort that Draco was the new master– either Voldemort would have killed Snape anyway, or Snape would have died from the Unbreakable Vow for selling out Draco.
( ...and Snape had not really known about the Elder Wand at the time of DD's death, though he may have been told something later by DD's portrait. We can't be sure.)
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PeskyPixie - Oct 14, 2007 12:27 pm (#82 of 85)
Why would Snape have a target on him? If DD's plan had worked, the Elder Wand would have been de-activated at the point DD died undefeated. Do you mean that Voldemort would have been angry and targeted Snape because Snape had turned the Elder Wand into a worthless stick by AK'ing a master who planned to die? -Chemyst
Only DD and Snape know that Snape does not defeat DD. To the rest of the world Snape is DD's murderer. Thus, if DD knows that LV will begin to hunt down the legendary Elder Wand, once it is traced down to DD Snape is in extreme danger as he is the one who supposedly defeats DD. Even if Draco does not interfere with DD and Snape's plan and it goes off without a hitch, nobody knows that the Elder Wand no longer has extraordinary powers.
I suppose DD could hope that LV is unfamiliar enough with wandlore to believe that simply possessing the Elder Wand is enough to gain its allegiance? If so, that is still an enormous gamble with Snape's life.
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Luna Logic - Oct 15, 2007 12:00 am (#83 of 85)
Edited by Oct 15, 2007 1:04 am
PeskyPixie : I suppose DD could hope that LV is unfamiliar enough with wandlore. I think that is the explanation we are suppose to accept. But Dumbledore should have changed his mind at the time of Ollivander's disappearance (many months before Dumbledore's death). The probability that Voldemort could dispose of Ollivander's knowledge was high.
For me, the recent discussion points an enormous hole in "Dumbledore's plan with wands":
1.Voldemort had to ask himself questions about the power of his wand, and Dumbledore knew it (DH).
2.Thus he had to seek knowledge from some wandmakers. 3.As soon as Voldemort learned about wandlore, given that he believed, like anybody, that Snape was the killer of Dumbledore (PeskyPixie post above), he would have to defeat Snape.
(Happily for the story, the "as soon as" takes always a school year long for Voldemort!)
The major flaws are for me 1. and especially 2. : the disappearance of Ollivander should have alerted Dumbledore and made him think harder about his "plan" (which was weak anyway, because other wandmakers, less scrupulous, did exist around the magic world...
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Mrs Brisbee - Oct 15, 2007 6:55 am (#84 of 85)
Chemyst, I'd say PeskyPixie summed up the flaw in Dumbledore's wand plan quite well, and Luna Logic provides yet another point against it: Dumbledore knew about Ollivander's disappearance, and probably knew through Snape that Ollivander was in Voldemort's clutches.
Backing up to the life and death thing, I think I'll add one more to my list: Dumbledore didn't accept death; Snape didn't accept life; Harry learned to accept both and move on; and Tom Riddle never learned to accept life or death, and could never move on in either one. Several people asked that I make my case for my views on Dumbledore and Snape. I hope that it isn't necessary to make such a case for Voldemort.
Now, Rowling decided to name this book Deathly Hallows, after a set of three powerful magical items that potentially make their possessor "Master of Death". So what is it to be Master of Death? Here Harry is at his parents' grave, looking at the inscription:
"The last enemy that shall be defeated is death"? A horrible thought had come to him, and with it a kind of panic. 'Isn't that a Death Eater idea? Why is that there"?
"It doesn't mean defeating death in the way the Death Eaters mean it, Harry,' said Hermione, her voice gentle. 'It means, you know, living beyond death. Living after death." -- (DH, Ch. 16, ?Godric?s Hollow)
Most important, those two quotes at the beginning, before the first chapter, need to be noted. An excerpt from the first:
Now hear, you blissful powers underground--
answer the call, send help.
Bless the children, give them triumph now.
And from the second:
Death is but the crossing of worlds, as friends do the seas; they live in one another still.
The first is about finding a place for life amidst death; the second is about finding a place for the dead amidst life. My premise is that this is the paradigm for Deathly Hallows, and that Rowling has chosen the characters who will be central to the plot because they illustrate her theme.
That quote about finding the dead within repeats an idea presented earlier in the series by Dumbledore, at the And The Moral Of The Story end of Prisoner of Azkaban: "You think the dead we love ever truly leave us? You think that we don't recall them more clearly than ever in times of great trouble? Your father is alive in you, Harry, and shows himself most plainly when you have need of him...." (PoA, Ch 22, "Owl Post Again")
This is where I think Dumbledore has gone wrong, because when it comes to his actions, he doesn't seem to accept that the "dead we love" can be found within.
Note that failure to accept is not the same thing as fear. He just has a hard time finding a place for it. He says so himself:
"Master of death, Harry, master of Death! Was I better, ultimately, than Voldemort?'
"Of course you were,' said Harry. 'Of course,how can you ask that? You never killed if you could help avoid it!?
"True, true,' said Dumbledore, and he was like a child seeking reassurance. 'Yet I too sought to conquer death, Harry.'-- (DH, Ch. 35, King's Cross)
Voldemort has sought to conquer death by controlling of it: Finding immortality for himself, and wanting to kill others or not as the whim takes him, imagining himself to have the final right over life and death.
Dumbledore's failure is more subtle; he wants the dead to come to him, arise from some external source. So he puts on the ring containing the Resurrection Stone, which would have brought back those at peace. Dumbledore himself says in King's Cross that he was unworthy to unite the Hallows, because he used them for the wrong reasons. Harry uses them for the right reasons. Dumbledore says to Harry: "... You are the true master of death, because the true master does not seek to run away from Death...."-- (DH, Ch 35, "King's Cross")
Dumbledore also seems to have a hard time accepting that after he is dead, those he leaves behind will be able to find him within themselves. Instead, he tries to maintain an external presence. He withholds information from the living, and he attempts to keep control of his plots even after his death. If he could trust that people could grow and learn from his wisdom, it wouldn't be necessary.
I realize that my view that Dumbledore was wrong to set up his plots as he did and didn't trust more in the living are unpopular , but I do think that is what he should have done, and I think that the point of his actions to the plot was that he should have done so. He should have accepted death, and accepted that his legacy could have been strong enough in the hearts and minds of those he influenced in life to carry through with what needed to be done.
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Soul Search - Oct 15, 2007 8:09 am (#85 of 85)
I am not sure I can accept the idea that Dumbledore had a "plan." A "plan" in the sense of a detailed series of steps and actions that would occur. Dumbledore had a goal, Voldemort's destruction, and he selected the main players: Voldemort, Harry, and Snape. He also set up supporting characters: Hermione, Ron, the Order, etc.
He knew the three main characters well, to the point where he could be confident of their actions and responses.
He then set things in motion with his death. He couldn't know exactly how the future would play out, but he was confident his ultimate goal would be achieved.
----------------------------------------
Mrs Brisbee, very good analysis.
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Mona- Hufflepuff Prefect
- Posts : 3114
Join date : 2011-02-21
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Overview for Those Who Have Finished the Book
Mona Sun Sep 25, 2011 8:37 am
Kip Carter - Jul 20, 2007 10:18 pm
Edited Jul 20, 2007 11:20 pm
This thread is available to those who have completely finished Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows and want to summarize their thoughts that cover more than one chapter. This thread will definitely contain Spoilers!
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Miss Malaprop - Jul 20, 2007 11:48 pm (#1 of 340)
WOW.
That far exceeded my expectations. I didn't dare hope for a happy ending. I'm still trembling!
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vanessa cave - Jul 21, 2007 2:48 am (#2 of 340)
WOW I really can't take it all in at the moment. I was really doubting Dumbledore near the end.
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Pinky - Jul 21, 2007 3:41 am (#3 of 340)
My favorite theory has not been proven wrong.... DIGS!!!!!! (Dumbledore is the Giant Squid) Did anyone else notice how the Giant Squid was conspicuosly absent during the big fight at the end?
What a great book, and the perfect way to end the series.
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Eponine - Jul 21, 2007 3:51 am (#4 of 340)
Wow is right. I'm still reeling from it all, but it was fantastic.
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Hogwarts Class of 85 - Jul 21, 2007 4:06 am (#5 of 340)
It was everything I hope it would be. Very emotionally draining read from start to finish - a real roller coaster
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Ollivander’s Apprentice - Jul 21, 2007 4:28 am (#6 of 340)
While I did enjoy the book overall, there are undeniably many issues as evidenced by the discussion on other forums (such as LeakyLounge). Here are a few I haven't seen discussed anywhere yet:
Contradiction? The Elder Wand was intended for Snape. The Elder Wand was intended to lose power upon Dumbledore's death.
Goyle destroyed a horcrux. Goyle! And Hermione refusing to even tell them about FiendFyre until that moment because she deemed it "too dangerous" shows Hermione to be totally misunderstanding the magnitude and import of their quest. Harry willingly sacrifices himself but casting a spell was too dangerous by Hermione's standards? *Sighs*
How many times has a person's wand been taken without that wand changing allegiance? The Shrieking Shack alone!
A little unclear as to how Voldemort was defeated: Because Harry was the master of the wand it allowed Voldemort's curse to rebound off the Expelliarmus? Was this combined with Harry's sacrifice protecting not only the others but him as well? Crucio didn't effect him.
Voldemort, to a great degree, is responsible for Dumbledore's death despite what Harry says: Voldemort cursed the ring. He wouldn't have needed Snape to kill him otherwise.
Or did I misunderstand something?
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Denise P. - Jul 21, 2007 4:37 am (#7 of 340)
Wow, what a rollercoaster ride!! I am still reeling.
Woo hoo Neville!!! Long live DIGS!
Who giggled at Aberforth's patronus? hee
Okay, did I miss who showed magic later in life?
Kip Carter - Jul 21, 2007 4:43 am (#8 of 340)[/b]
Thank to each of you for posting your overall thoughts here! I think I have a way to handle your many questions that should have a threads of their own. Give me some time to create the vehicle and make it secure for those who do not want spoilers available. I will posted something here later when the vehicle is established and also post how it will work. Have patience!
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Muggle Doctor - Jul 21, 2007 4:51 am (#9 of 340)
Wands change allegiance when they are taken permanently from their owners, not when they are briefly removed and eventually returned.
The Elder Wand gave its full allegiance to whoever had defeated its current holder in battle, something Voldemort had never done. It was Draco Malfoy who had cast Expelliarmus on Dumbledore, therefore fulfilling the wand's requirements, before Snape killed him. Harry in turn defeated Draco, so the Elder Wand recognised him as its master and refused to allow its power to be used to kill him, or even to harm him. He was able to cast shield spells against Voldemort's magic, protecting Seamus and Hannah (yay for the return of Hannah Abbott - Miss Motherless Hufflepuff Flamingo Panic returns for the last battle and is not named among the dead!) and Molly Weasley, because Voldemort was using the Elder Wand, and the Wand would not work against the magic of its master.
We always knew Voldemort was going to lose. The high points for me were:
Dumbledore's Army - Still Recruiting.
So proud and pleased that they got to redeem themselves after the previous year. I didn't cry for this book, but that line - just that one line - brought me closest to tears, because it showed just how far Neville had come, and just how much Dumbledore had meant to all the kids. At the end, it wasn't just a cool nickname for the "Defence Association" - it really was "Dumbledore's Army". And they were willing to die for it.
And Neville killed Nagini a la Harry's Basilisk method. And broke Voldemort's body-bind curse! Go Neville.
Molly Weasley versus Bellatrix Lestrange.
Oh. My. God. I had really, really badly wanted Neville to do this. But... oh God, it was brilliant. "Get out of the way! She's mine!" and Bellatrix makes that fatal mistake of underestimating her opponent, and then it's goodbye.
The Boy who Lived - again and again and again!
That is twice Harry has survived being hit (as opposed to having been shot at) with the AK spell by Voldemort. Who would have thought that Lily's blood in Voldemort was Harry's Horcrux! (Except Dumbledore of course...)
I like what Voldemort's fate was - to be the scourged, whimpering pseudo-foetus for all eternity. Truly worse than death. Can't say he wasn't warned...
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Ollivander’s Apprentice - Jul 21, 2007 5:07 am (#10 of 340)
Muggle Doctor, I agree with your reasoning about wands. I just wish the book had been clearer on that point.
I will restrain myself from further discussion and wait until the new threads have been estabilshed.
Kip Carter - Jul 21, 2007 5:13 am (#11 of 340)[/b]
I have created a new folder, =+=+= Deathly Hallows Threads (Includes SPOILERS) Folder =+=+=, which will hold any new thread that should be available to those who want to start really discussing Book Seven. Within this new folder there is a new thread, # Suggestions for New Threads, where you can make your suggestions for a new thread to be added to this new folder. Enjoy!
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shadzar - Jul 21, 2007 5:27 am (#12 of 340)
Edited by Denise P. Jul 21, 2007 6:29 am
I just want to know was the last word actually scar?
I haven't been able to go buy the book yet, but that will be the first thing I check for.
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Denise P. - Jul 21, 2007 5:29 am (#13 of 340)
JKRowling said more than a week ago that the last word was not scar but that it was near the end.
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azi - Jul 21, 2007 6:05 am (#14 of 340)
Edited by Catherine Jul 22, 2007 7:59 am
It was great! I'm impressed with how many theories on this forum were correct. Off the top of my head...
Great Points
The first chapter. Amazing!
The Malfoys - Narcissa is everything I expected her to be, great character
The visit to Godric's Hollow. It was beautiful
The 'revolution' at Hogwarts
Loved McGonagall, especially when she called Snape a coward and tried to duel him
Dumbledore's backstory - knowing he had faults made me like him even more
Harry/Ginny relationship was much more realistic than HBP
Bad Points
Tonks/Lupin's relationship didn't seem quite right...not very realistic. We never saw them together, just heard random bits of important news, at which point you thought, 'That was quick!' Lupin's character seemed off, maybe the stress of war or something?
Without Hermione, Harry would never have managed most of what happened in the book
Snape's memories, they were extremely interesting, but there were too many at once. Also, not enough Snape really...never thought I'd say that...
The epilogue. You could tell it had been written at a different time to the rest of the book. It seemed a bit unrefined to me.
Nitpicky Points
Hermione's middle name is down as 'Jean' in this book, but we've been told before that it's 'Jane'.
My friend pointed out that while Harry thinks he doesn't know healing spells, he did perform Episkey during Quidditch practice once
Edited to close a font tag so that the remaining posts aren't "Azi green.
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sstabeler - Jul 21, 2007 7:01 am (#15 of 340)
Harry doesn't know flash healing spells, episkey is for bones. Also, i didn't think harry being a Horcrux would be possible befroe, but ti turned out to be true. personally, I LOVED Voldemort's death. killed by a rebounding Avada Kedavra. it became a fatal habit, it seems.
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MickeyCee3948 - Jul 21, 2007 8:12 am (#16 of 340)
From the wand he valued above all others no less sstabeler
Mickey
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sstabeler - Jul 21, 2007 9:21 am (#17 of 340)
Yes, kind of ironic, that Voldemort's quest to make himself invincible would end so dramatically. Not to mention, it's ironic that the very day he asks for help, Voldemort is defeated and slain that same day. I loved the way Mcgonagall took command of Hogwarts' defence and animated the statues so that they would defend the school.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 21, 2007 10:53 am (#18 of 340)
First, I loved the book. The Tonks/Remus relationship reminded me of Arthur and Molly's elopement in the first war.
Second, I truly glad we the reader got to meet Andromeda and Ted Tonks.
Third, I am truly glad that Snape was Dumbledore's man and that he was right to trust Snape and that he was the Death Eater who left forever.
Fourth, I am also glad that Percy came to his senses and that he proved in the end to be above all else a Weasley and true Gryffindor and that Fred did not die before seeing the reconcilliation and Percy's redemption.
Last, the fact that Slughorn fought and fought bravely too even going so far as to confront Voldemort.
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Michael Franz - Jul 21, 2007 10:58 am (#19 of 340)
Harry doesn't know flash healing spells, episkey is for bones.
It seemed to stop Demelza Robins's bleeding in Book 6 when Harry uses it to heal her after Ron kicked her in the face while playing Quidditch.
One thing I didn't like about this book: There was too much new stuff in it. By which I mean, why is Hermione giving us a round of typical Hermione exposition about FiendFyre (which we've never heard of before) near the end of the last book?! Not to mention the fact that she cast about a dozen different spells that we've never heard of before (and that no one else in the book tries to cast.)
Speaking of Hermione: she has the power to completely rewrite her parents' memories, yet, later in the book, she says she's never done a Memory Charm before! Maybe the first one backfired on her.
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sstabeler - Jul 21, 2007 11:11 am (#20 of 340)
That as a broken nose, I think, Michael. As for the Memory Charms, she is a powerful witch, we just have to assume she can do some things. Also, Hermione isn't the only person that uses new spells. Mcgonagall uses a load of new spells, including the suit of armour animation spell.
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Mare - Jul 21, 2007 11:44 am (#21 of 340)
Warning! Many random thoughts ahead.
Rollercoaster ride is my exact same thought, I sat there and I couldn't stop reading, so many things that turned out to matter (bloody baron and grey lady for example)
12 hours, it took me, with small breaks for eating and such. I'm so impressed with all the things, small things, put in the first 6 books that came back.
I loved the book, I was so happy when Neville turned up, Go Neville!
I'm also quite happy that the theory that the put-outer was going to be significant turned out to be true. The thread about that should be somewhere at the end of the forum in the filing cabinet covered in dust. It got a name change though, deluminator.
And Petunia wanting to be a witch too, I wish she would have talked to Harry before he left. But yes, Snape was the awful boy.
I cried for Dobby, Fred was expected (unfortunately) and Lupins and Tonks dead were... I don't know, I hate that they died, but it seemed so sidelined. Like Azi, I think we should have seen a little more of their relation to make it work.
The epilogue was the only dissapointing part, I feel no connection at all to the little brats that suddenly popped up and I can't keep all the children apart. (Little Lily and James and Albus Severus, now there is overdoing it a bit) I just want to know what happened to Luna and George and basically everone in the DA and the order. And wether or not Percy still dates Penelope.
I love love love how so many people turned up though, Krum and Wood and Cho and Lee Jordan...
Other than that: What happened to the spouses of teachers, weren't they supposed to be around somewhere? What happened to Susan Bones? And like pointed out, who did magic late in life?
And shouldn't Draco and Harry at least have a conversation after the whole Room of Hidden Things debacle? He saved his life, and I'm sure they have something to talk about after the tower incident.
And I wonder who survived who was supposed to die, and who got saved instead....
Edit: I disliked Ron speaking Parseltongue... and how exactly did the Dumbledore portrait knew about Harry's leaving date, who informed him? We only saw the portrait in his study, and at that time, wasn't Snape away from Hogwarts and McGonnagall in charge? (much love for her too, by the way)
Can we start compiling a list with "things we still need to know" allready?
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SaraG - Jul 21, 2007 12:05 pm (#22 of 340)
Coming out of major lurking mode: AMAZING!!! It took me 11 hours to read (with breaks for eating etc.) I love reading this forum (and I didn't find whoever started using magic late in life, either.) sara g , Israel
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Ponine - Jul 21, 2007 12:12 pm (#23 of 340)
I really liked the book. I may love the book, I'm not sure yet.
I loved: Kreacher, the Doe, Percy, Dobby *tear*, DA, McGonagall,
My least favorite part was that Snape had such a small part of this book - I would have loved for someone, just one person, to see him for who he was, just once, (post AK'ing DD) while he was alive.
I would have liked to see more of the Weasleys after Fred's death, particularly George.
I think I didn't mind the deaths of Tonks and Lupin so much because they were so real to me - senseless, needless casualties of war -
While some parts perhaps seemed to be cut a little short, like the ending and Snape's death, I feel like JKR included a lot of information for us that she needn't have gone through.
Also, I must say that I am EXTREMELY proud of our hypotheses - mine, ours, and yours, because we were right in many, many aspects. Yey us!
Off to start rereading, I think - I can breathe now that my Won-won made it ok...
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MickeyCee3948 - Jul 21, 2007 12:16 pm (#24 of 340)
Could the magic late in life possibly be Ron speaking Parseltongue? Other than that I couldn't see it either. Maybe I missed it on first reading. Well off to begin my second read, a little slower this time.
Mickey
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Thom Matheson - Jul 21, 2007 12:23 pm (#25 of 340)
Holy ear. If that doesn't win a Pulitzer there is no justice. I need a few days to decompress. But by far the best read ever from Jo Rowling. Thank you thank you thank you
Mickey, Denise, Ron is the only new magic I thought of also.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 21, 2007 12:41 pm (#26 of 340)
Marè, I disagree on the naming of Harry's children as Albus Severus in my mind that reinforces that Harry truly understood and comprehended why Albus trusted Severus Snape. Additionally it demonstrated Harry true enlightenment.
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Michael Franz - Jul 21, 2007 12:48 pm (#27 of 340)
As for the Memory Charms, (Hermione) is a powerful witch, we just have to assume she can do some things.
Yes, but I find it hard to believe that she can do a complete Total Recall-style memory rewrite on her parents, and then wonders whether or not she can successfully Obliviate someone. I mean, I think the former is a bit more complicated.
Personally, I think that if J.K. wanted to be so fanatical about keeping Hermione's parents out of the books, she should have either made Hermione an orphan from the beginning or had the Death Eaters kill them in Book 5. If Hermione wants to be Mrs. Weasley's kid so badly, she should just do it and abandon any pretense of calling Mr. and Mrs. Granger her family.
In fact, I think she already has -- that Memory Charm is never going to be reversed.
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Mare - Jul 21, 2007 1:11 pm (#28 of 340)
Oh I get that Harry understands Snape now... I just think it is rather cliche to emphasis it by naming his children that. I also think that there is a lot of emotion and history tied to those names for a child to carry around with him/her.
Also note that of their three children, all are named after Harry's heroes, and Ginny's brave brother gets no name in there.
I just, feel that we get almost no time to get used to these new characters, these children of our beloved main characters, but they are there with a lot of personality (or they are supposed to have it anyway) and having them carry names that flashes images of other characters in my mind doesn't help me care for them at all.
I much rather would have had an epilogue a year after the battle, telling us what happened to every-one and mentioning at the end that Ginny, Harry, Hermione, Neville & Ron lived happily ever after and got loads of kids.
(Some-one remember the ending of the tv series Charmed, this one feels a lot alike, or, for that matter, LoTR with all the many many little hobbitchildren of Sam and Pippin being called Faramir and Boromir and whatnot).
I get to read about characters I don't care about while I want to know what happened to all the other characters I came to love and hate. It just... annoys me... and since it is the end of the book, I dislike that, because it sticks with me, while I loved the rest of it so very very much.
About Hermiones parents, I find her caring for them believable for the first time since book 2 or so.
In the books, her parents just seem to have no trouble sending her away from home and in only 3 years, have her staying away during christmas, most of the summer holidays... For parents of an only child, that seems a bit of, I know one child can't replace another, but I would have found it more believable if she would have had that sister around for her parents to cuddle over after she almost completely disappeared.
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Denise P. - Jul 21, 2007 1:56 pm (#29 of 340)
I think we have an interview where JKR said she initially gave Hermione a sister but never worked her in or something.
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Erika Gryffindor - Jul 21, 2007 2:07 pm (#30 of 340)
Brilliant book. Thanks JKR.
I can't wait to listen to it now, after reading it. It was well done!
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 21, 2007 2:28 pm (#31 of 340)
Mare I agree the omission of Fred from Harry's kids name is interesting although, I would propose that Fred's name was used as middle name for one of Harry's other sons.
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Lady Nagini - Jul 21, 2007 2:32 pm (#32 of 340)
Edited Jul 21, 2007 4:06 pm
I'm of the opinion that Bill and Fleur's first son was probably named Fred. (Or any of the other Weasleys who had children before Harry and Ginny, really, since I think Bill and Fleur's first child is Victoire.)
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septentrion - Jul 21, 2007 3:06 pm (#33 of 340)
Count me with the ones who don't like the epilogue. Like Marè (waves madly), I'd rather have an epilogue one year after with all the characters (what happened to McGonagall? Did Snape have a will? Why did Snape join the Death Eaters exactly? etc.)
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Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 21, 2007 3:40 pm (#34 of 340)
I think only George has the right to name a son Fred. I like Molly's gift to Harry when he turned 17. I read it so fast that I'm looking forward to the reread. I missed the magic late in life also. Poor Hedwig and Dobby ***sob**.
Off to look for the Eat Crow thread! I have to fire up the grill. LPO
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Cerpin Taxt - Jul 21, 2007 3:43 pm (#35 of 340)
LOVED THIS AMAZING BOOK!!! The last three books blew me away, but not as much as this one. Saddened about the deaths of the characters that people did not expect to die. Great book. Septentrion I think Snape really believed in what he was doing for Voldemort and since his "friends" were Death Eaters he joined also. I like all the allusions to other books and time periods. Specially the French Resistance and WWII allusions with the underground and radio. And the Deathly Hallows sign Triangle, Circle, Line as a refrence to the Swastika (in buddhism the swastika is supposed to mean good luck). AARRRGHHHH such as good book ended... Wish there was more.
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Caput Draconis - Jul 21, 2007 4:36 pm (#36 of 340)
I too loved the allusions to other books. It felt like we were being rewarded for sticking with Harry for all these years, just like JK said in the dedication, and also like many of the characters we've come to know had a chance to shine.
Hermione really worked for me and I'm glad none of the trio died. Loved all the reading within reading we were able to do - eulogies in The Daily Prophet, parts of Rita Skeeter's book and the tale of the Deathly Hallows. Luna is a fantastic character, Dumbledore's flaws worked well, McGonagall is my hero.
The Prince's Tale was so very, very cool. I've always been a fan of Snape - as a character, good or bad (I never doubted him though ) - and it was amazing to see his memories, to read his final part in the story. I also loved the way the memories floated around, loved that Harry went to his side but didn't know why, loved his final act of looking into Harry/Lily's eyes...oh and then the Silver Doe! So. Cool.
Sigh.
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Holly T. - Jul 21, 2007 4:40 pm (#37 of 340)
I thought it was wonderful. I cheered, I cried. Now I want to read it again to see what I missed the first time.
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Nymphadora - Jul 21, 2007 5:26 pm (#38 of 340)
Thanks to all you great people, for sharing the questions that were popping into my mind all the time as I read on!!
I laughed and cried so much at the Prince's story and the Doe being his, forever... but why a Doe? Because she was pledged to the Stag?
I think that however long and intricate the epilogue was, people would need more. JKR wrote about the characters that mattered most to her and wanted us to know what happened. Still, I'm intrigued at the 19 years rather than 14, say - the elder son couldn't have been more than 13 with all that childish taunting, and Albus Severus was clearly 11.
I cheered and laughed aloud so many times, was moved, was desperate, argued with Harry and Hermione aloud while reading on in earnest... it was absolutely GREAT. Thanks JK for rewarding us thus.
Good night to you all.
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Verity Weasley - Jul 21, 2007 5:53 pm (#39 of 340)
As so many have already said, WOW. This was an amazing read,action-packed from start to finish. I wasn't expecting the action to start quite so soon, the ambush by the death eaters as Harry was leaving Privet Drive took my breath away. And Hedwig dying was so totally unexpected. I was impressed by how many of our theories turned out to be true, although there were still plenty of surprises. The ending was satisfying, though very emotional. Not sure about the epilogue - as other people have said, it left me a little cold. There is lots still to discuss. Who did magic later in life? Did JKR take that bit out? I'm reading it aloud to my sons now, so at a much slower pace than the first time around. WOW!
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TomProffitt - Jul 21, 2007 5:54 pm (#40 of 340)
Well, I've been hiding from the Forum for about three months to miss any chance at an inadvertent spoiler. I've been hiding so I could come at the book with a fresh and open mind.
I don't know if hiding was the best thing to do, but I enjoyed this book more than any of the others and I think the hiding helped. While I read I found that I was free from second guessing Rowling for the first time since GOF. I suspect I'll be back for some time to come.
As much as I enjoyed each book which preceded Deathly Hallows I always had a feeling that each book was unfinished. Final completion was always another story away and it infringed on my enjoyment.
Deathly Hallows has brought about that completion. The story has been completed, there is no plot left to write. Certainly there is more I would like to know about the characters who remain, but the plot is complete. There are no stories remaining for our friends fit to tell after the one they have just survived.
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hellocello3200 - Jul 21, 2007 5:55 pm (#41 of 340)
Yeah, I thought the doe was an odd animal for him to symbolize her as, because it would remind him of her relationship to James, but for the reader, it inforces the similarities between Harry and Snape that Harry suddenly starts to notice. The both have deer patroni, they both found refuge at Hogwarts etc...
All in all, I thought this book was incredibly dense with plot. There was no fluff like quidditch, or any humorous romantic escapades. Even the latter "dark" books had their breaks. I felt like the reader could never really relax.
One thing that bugged me was that Harry wasn't at all bothered that Dumbledore had been planning on getting him killed eventually. (King's Cross Dumbledore seemed to be pleasently suprised that Harry was still alive). In fact, the only one who seemed bothered by it was Snape.
On a related note, I think having Snape's goal in life be protecting Harry inorder to pay for his sins explains well why he was always so mad when Harry went and did something needlessly dangerous.
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Betelgeuse Black - Jul 21, 2007 6:12 pm (#42 of 340)
I really enjoyed this book. I expected the hiding and apparating from place to place but all the narrow escapes were thrilling! I liked the way that Harry was able to use Voldy's ignorance to beat him. On the whole, it was a thrill ride unlike any of the other books. I would say that only the end of POA matches the surprises and intensity.
With re-reads, I'll be treating HBP and DH as one long book because HBP does not stand well without DH. Thanks Jo! I'll be reading this one for years!
Betelgeuse
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Denise P. - Jul 21, 2007 6:22 pm (#43 of 340)
I will have to try that Betelgeuse. I have always been vocal in my dislike of HBP but I really feel like DH is a nice, very nice, apology. Maybe if I go back and read it again, I will like it a little better or maybe dislike it less.
I liked this one much better on the first read than I did OOP, which is my favorite. This was just brilliant!
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Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 21, 2007 6:26 pm (#44 of 340)
I agree Denise. I have a hard time with HBP. I like the odd numbered books best 1,3,5,7. The themes are carried through. LPO
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Ms Amanda - Jul 21, 2007 6:27 pm (#45 of 340)
This is my favorite Harry Potter book, hands down.
Please stand by for the random thoughts to be placed in a pensieve later...
Dudley and Petunia get the extra characterization their characters needed to make an actually touching scene. Snape's story was told in probably the only way we would trust it. Harry grows up about his scar visions and how to act, and not act, on them, most convincingly. I would like to know how he figured out shutting them out a bit, but the progression and insight Harry has into why he continues seeing them is outstanding! Kreacher. . . wow. Last scene Kreacher is in just really stirred me up for him again - - - able to fight in Regulus' honor if he pleased.
I think the screwed up flight from Privet Drive is an excellent physical representation of Harry's upcoming situation - both that he has no means of "flight" and that he is going to be cut off from what he considers the most pleasant aspects of the magical world. The symbolism of each of Dumbledore's gifts bequeathed to the trio seems so relevant now.
The way the book was written let me see so much more of what was happening than book six did. The bits that we were left out of, like Remus and Tonk's lives and deaths and Ron and Hermione's trip to the Chamber of Secrets, annoyed me to a much lesser degree - - - I felt it was dealt with nicely.
And excuse me for saying so, but I am sooooo glad Harry told off Remus about abandoning his family. Whether or not Harry was right about Remus wanting an "adventure" I can't guess, but I am sure that he was right about Remus needing to be with his wife and child.
I CRIED when Harry was talking about the mess Dumbledore left for him and how it didn't feel like Dumbledore had cared. It was such a personal message of loss. It was touching a real and a very convincing step in the grieving process.
As I began reading the Kings Cross chapter, I'd already been crying for an entire chapter. I'm not sure how long it took me to finally stop crying, but I had to go back for a while to get a grip on what I was reading. That chapter was really a waiting station for me, too, allowing me to calm down and really look at what was going on. The flayed baby-thing still has me confused and waiting for nightmares.
I like how the epilogue left many things open. It is still a living world to me that way.
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TomProffitt - Jul 21, 2007 6:29 pm (#46 of 340)
Nowhere to post this, but I made ten predictions for the book two days before it come out:
- Harry?s Scar is not a Horcrux (a popular theory)
- Hagrid & Severus Snape are the two big deaths
- Dumbledore is really dead
- One Big Happy Weasley Family. (Everyone lives & Hermione and Harry marry into the family)
- Neville gets his revenge on Bellatrix (possibly at the cost of his own life)
- Harry goes back to Hogwarts as a student (despite what he said)
- Head Girl is Hermione (duh)
- Head Boy is among Harry, Ron, & Ernie Macmillan (I just can?t decide here)
- We?ve already seen all of the four remaining Horcruxes R.A.B. is Regulus Black (a no brainer, really)
I'm counting this as almost four and a half correct out of ten, the one I was most surprised about was being right about having seen all of the Horcruxes already.
I'm also curious did anyone notice that Harry in the entire series only destroyed one Horcrux? Heck, Voldemort got two himself. (I'm counting the final death of Voldemort as Voldemort inadvertantly killing himself)
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TomProffitt - Jul 21, 2007 6:35 pm (#47 of 340)
The flayed baby-thing still has me confused and waiting for nightmares. --- Ms Amanda
I'm pretty certain that the "flayed baby" represents the piece of Tom Riddle's soul that was destroyed with the Killing Curse that sent Harry to the station. It took me a bit to figure that out though.
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Kevin Corbett - Jul 21, 2007 7:04 pm (#48 of 340)
I think, if nothing else, we should all congratulate ourselves on our overall cleverness. With a few exceptions, I don't think there were many plot elements that weren't guessed at by quite a few people.
Also, I must say huzzah for myself, for Voldy referred to the horcruxes as his "anchors", which was always my understanding of them.
One of the biggest surprises, one of the things that my cynicism leers at by my heart thinks excellently done is that Mrs. Weasley was the one to kill Bellatrix. Mrs. Weasley. And since its in the book, I can fully state my delight with her line, "NOT MY DAUGHTER, YOU BITCH!".
I imagine the "family forum" policy might get that last word censored, but c'mon---it's in the book. I was also delighted with Ron's repeatedly swearing by "Merlin's saggy left..." He he. I'm shockingly lowbrow at times.
Although I guess one might disapprove of the epilogue, I only found it distasteful in parts. I think it would have been better to end with "I know he will" and leave off the "His scar had not hurt in 19 years. All was well". I can't help but feel like there should be a "...Or was it?" following a line like that. A bit too campy. I will agree that the whole things feels like an extended "And they lived happily ever after", but I think it can be forgiven for resolving the main "shipping" matters (isn't that what you kid's call it?) that would have been endlessly wondered at. And actually, I think it was worth it, if only for the aside between little "Al" and Harry about Slytherins, and the part about a Snape being the bravest person Harry had ever known, especially given how often he, Snape, is called a coward by Harry and the others throughout this one and HBP.
On the whole, Snape's redemption is everything we all had been hoping against hope to be true. His "Look......at......me" says more than I can describe. And I know that many people admire Alan Rickman, and I would agree that his performance in the movies has mostly been more than tolerable, but I don't know how he's going to pull it off (let alone how he's going to get through HBP). I take it for granted that the movie of this one will be, to me at least, unwatchable, though I daresay I will still watch it, but I don't know how they are even doing to approach this with him.
I have some mixed views as to the whole "deathly hallows" business. Frankly, I had been expecting a bit more...or a maybe just a bit different. I take it back...everything to do with Dumbledore's boyhood and the hallows I found first rate. However, it is never really explained what would have happened if Harry or Voldemort had united the hallows and become "master of Death" or whatever. Would such a one have the power to truly bring the dead back to life and they wouldn't be just shades? And I seem to remember someone saying the Grindelwald wanted to use the stone to create an army of Inferi? Does it work like that?
As for Harry's "death" or near-death or whatever---when I first heard Dumbledore talking so callously about Harry's like, I was mortified, but then I thought, it might be an Aslan-esque moment. Now, I know there are some fierce secularists out there, so I won't push the issue, but I can't imagine that JKR penned that chapter without the "ragged-figure of Jesus" in Gesthemene at least somewhere in her brain (20 points for any other literary geek who knows where that quote's from).
As for the deaths, the ones that really affected me most at the time of my actually reading it (this excludes Snape's) was Dobby's. I am a 23 year old guy, but I sobbed like a baby at that moment. Snape's death, in its way, was much more profound in its pathos, but when Dobby died, all I could think of was those big round eyes beaming with love for Harry, I couldn't help but feel it really badly (and I wasn't thinking of the CGI eyes from CoS...more Marie GrandPre's illustrations, which I think, on the whole, superior to most of the images from the movies).
Well, I can't write anymore...though obviously, none of us have yet emptied our brains fully on this book.
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TomProffitt - Jul 21, 2007 7:25 pm (#49 of 340)
However, it is never really explained what would have happened if Harry or Voldemort had united the hallows and become "master of Death" or whatever. --- Kevin Corbett
When Harry approached the Death Eaters and Lord Voldemort in the forest he was in possession of all three Deathly Hallows, as he explained right before the last duel. Being a "Master of Death" is learning not to fear it. I thought Harry explained this bit rather well, myself.
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Kevin Corbett - Jul 21, 2007 7:33 pm (#50 of 340)
Ah, I forgot. Well...er...the thing is, I kind of thought it was supposed to mean, like, an actual power or something. But learning is good, too. Wit beyond measure is man's greatest treasure.
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Overview for Those Who Have Finished the Book (Continued)
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Verity Weasley - Jul 21, 2007 8:00 pm (#51 of 340)
I've just got to say, how good is JK Rowling? After Half Blood Prince I was firmly in the Severus is good camp, but after reading the first few chapters I was seriously doubting my convictions. JKR kept me guessing right up to the moment of Snape's death about that.
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Ollivander’s Apprentice - Jul 21, 2007 8:15 pm (#52 of 340)
TomProffitt, can you give me a page number for when Harry says this? It certainly can be inferred but I cannot find it actually stated clearly. Dumbledore does say that Harry is the true master of death because he doesn't fear it but never claims this power comes from the Hallows themselves.
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TomProffitt - Jul 21, 2007 8:33 pm (#53 of 340)
Ollivander, just did a bit of checking (I've only read it once), but in DH US Version pp. 741 - 744 Harry explains how that he is in possession of the Elder Wand and not Voldemort. It was at the point that I read this that I realized Harry had had all three Deathly Hallows when he sought out his own death in the Forbidden Forest. So, I filled in blanks from the "King's Cross Chapter" and realized that Grindelwald's pursuit of immortality through the Hallows was as hollow as Voldemort's pursuit of immortality through Horcruxes.
So no, the explanation is not as explicit as I had thought, but it is there (in opinion anyway).
EDIT: The power comes from wisdom not from the Hallows themselves.
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Pamzter - Jul 21, 2007 9:05 pm (#54 of 340)
I knew that Lupin was going to die but was very surprised about Tonks. I wanted to see what happened to them though - to see Lupin either protecting Tonks or going crazy over her murder. I wanted to see some PASSION in him for once.
Surprised myself by tearing up when Percy showed up. I've never really cared for that storyline.
I liked the kids' names in the epilogue, Harry had his James, Lily, Albus as real family.
So, did Bill and Fleur name their daughter after Viktor???
I can't wait for the movie version of Julie Walter vs. Helene Bonham Carter!!!
While there are a few more things I'd like more information on, what is the old adage? "Always leave them wanting more." That Jo did.
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dizzy lizzy - Jul 21, 2007 10:48 pm (#55 of 340)
Oh what a book! I finished 24 hours ago but spent the time impatiently waiting to get onto the net to say so!!!!
I loved it. Tightly written, well edited and I got the point of the baby at the station almost immediately. I really think this is the best of the lot.
I don't have a lot of time left so I shall leave it here. here's hoping I can come back and talk some more.
Lizzy
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Mare - Jul 22, 2007 1:22 am (#56 of 340)
Some more thoughts: Ponine, I think you were right, if both Harry and Marvolo descended from one of the Peverell lines, than Harry and Voldemort were related somewhere somehow. It doesn't nesecarily mean that Harry descended from slytherin though, could have been a different Peverell.
Also, Harry defeats Voldemort with his signature Expelliarmus, the one Snape showed him (reluctantly) in book 2. Very nicely done.
About the chapter Kreachers tale, there are some things that do not ad d up, The first time Voldemort uses Kreacher to drink the potion, he actively refills the bassin, so... who refilled the bassin after Regulus drank the potion?
And how did Regulus managed to drink it all anyway, Dumbledore needed Harry to force him, but Kreacher never states he needed to do that for Regulus?
And last, in that chapter after the story Harry uses Voldemorts names several times when it allready has a taboo on it. Wouldn't the DE's have known for certain then that he was staying in GP12?
Anyways: I don't know if hiding was the best thing to do, but I enjoyed this book more than any of the others and I think the hiding helped.
I have the same feeling, I am very glad I didn't spoiled half the book for myself by all the theories on this forum, the most people here are just too smart and I was more pleased to be surprised this time.
I also thought that Peters dead was a bit.. of an anticlimax, I have the feeling that when she wrote PoA she might have considered a bigger role for the life debt.
And I think Bill and Fleurs daughter, is like Viktor named for victory. I wonder now if Viktor was named like that because his parents wanted to (belated) remember the victory over Grindelwald, one of them lost a father because of him.
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Anna L. Black - Jul 22, 2007 2:11 am (#57 of 340)
Wonderful, simply wonderful! This book was so funny, scary, touching...
Seriously, in the first third or so, I kept laughing every 3 or 4 pages - JK's humor, even in the sad/frightening situations is excellent. 'Ear, 'ear -
The second third was very frightening. Godric's Hollow, especially so. So much darkness all around the Trio (and without Ron, it wasn't really the same - I was so happy when he came back!)
The last part was action all over, filled with this information-giving scenes I like so much since HBP. I particularly liked Aberforth and his story, and The Prince's tale was everything I hoped for, which surprised me, as I previously didn't want it to be "Snape loved Lily". She put a totally different angle on that, however, it was wonderful to read.
This was also the emotional part. I didn't cry when Mad-Eye and Hedwig died, and surprisingly - neither when Dobby died. But when they met Neville and he told them of the resistance, I had tears welling up in my eyes. And then (here I really surprised myself) - when Percy came back, I had tears again, even stronger this time. I didn't feel much when Fred went down (I expected it to happen, and frankly - we didn't really see him going down...). The most emotional moment I had was when Harry faced the dead Marauders, and when he said to Remus that he was sorry... here I broke down.
Anyway, spectacular ending, I'm really glad that Hagrid survived (I was sure he's a goner), I was immensely sad to see Snape die in the way he did (especially as it was utterly pointless, even on LV's behalf). I liked the epilogue, though I agree that I would've liked to hear what happened to the others - Luna, in particular.
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shadzar - Jul 22, 2007 3:37 am (#58 of 340)
Edited by Kip Carter Jul 22, 2007 7:58 am
so harry was a horcrux, and harry did die...???
oh boy. when the paperback full set comes out so i can buy it and finally read the books i have a lot of stuff to digest.
seems from what you all are saying that she did leave room for another book, if nothing more than an extended epiloque. but the 19 year gap doesn't leave for much excitement to be had, but mundane daily activities...which is what Harry always longed for.
shadzar, I strongly suggest that you start following the Philosophy of this Forum and our guidelines or your Participant status could be changed. I edited your post above, using only some of the basic rules of punctuation and capitalization of words, so that others hopefully could understand what you attempted to convey. I wish I had the time to do more, but I do not!
So Harry was a horcrux, and Harry did die...???
Oh boy. When the paperback full set comes out so I can buy it and finally read the books I have a lot of stuff to digest.
Seems from what you all are saying that she did leave room for another book, if nothing more than an extended epiloque. But the 19 year gap doesn't leave for much excitement to be had, but mundane daily activities...which is what Harry always longed for.
You have thirty (30) minutes after you post to edit your message. Please use those 30 minutes wisely. Take pride in your posts!
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Kerstin - Jul 22, 2007 3:44 am (#59 of 340)
There are still a few things that make me wonder...
The Elder Wand: It?s been said that you have to win a fight against the actual owner to become the new true owner, to possess it is not enough to make it work for you. OK, therefore it didn?t work for LV. But I think the chain was interrupted earlier: Grindelwald stole the wand from Gregorovitch. So whoever took it over from then would have had to fight Gregorovitch to become its master.
Magic late in life: Ron speaking Parseltongue doesn?t seem right to be the magic late in life. I thought of a person who hadn?t done any magic so far.
And I feel pretty much like Mare about the epilogue: so many names without personal relations at least for us.
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Miss Malaprop - Jul 22, 2007 4:36 am (#60 of 340)
When I got to the end of the book, I didn?t really want to read the epilogue, didn?t need to. I think it was more for the shippers. And Scorpius! What a name to give an innocent baby!
I loved the relationship between Lily and ?Tuney.? So sad that Petunia wrote to Dumbledore requesting entry to Hogwarts. She will have my sympathy when I reread the series.
This is the only HP book I?ve ever cried in (I was very jittery when I began reading) ? I sobbed for Dobby, howled for Remus and Tonks ? mainly for little orphan Teddy ? and wept for Harry as he went forward into death. ?You brave, brave man!? All those poor people who thought there would only be 2 deaths?they were in for a shock!
Character I was most proud of: Neville!
Character I wanted to see more of: Snape. I wish he could have been sure that Harry finally understood him.
Character I was most mistaken about: Ron ? I thought his newfound tact and maturity meant he was a Polyjuiced imposter! I?ve always been fearful that he would betray Harry in some way, so glad I was wrong!
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Good Evans - Jul 22, 2007 4:56 am (#61 of 340)
I missed the hogwarts teachers (til the end obviously) and all of the normal format. Loved mcGonnagall - How gallant of you Potter
Percy I knew it!!! But I really did think he was a goner!!
Not my daughter, you bitch - Molly, you are perfect!!!
Tonks and Lupin - I guess it had to be - I missed Tonks at the end, Lupin reappeared with the others but no 'Dora
Kreacher - really warmed to him and the whole story - DD was right treat your inferiors well .....
loved DD at kings cross
oh so much - need to re read expecially the end - not sue about the names for the children - would not middle names have been a nice tribute for Albus ? anyhow liked the tie ins, but so many questions about what happened to some of them, I would like to know what they were doing for a living - did they ever go back to finish, How could George carry on without Fred, did he marry Verity?
You know she can always write more books - but we wont see the central charcters again, unless they litterally have a cameo, she is right - Harry's story is done. Looking forward to listening to the CD.
I went back through the quick predicitons thread - you know no one got all the deaths right, that they predicted. And although hermys parents didnt die - I was so pleased that JK dealt with it in a reasonable way. HOORAY
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hellocello3200 - Jul 22, 2007 6:28 am (#62 of 340)
I agree with Kevin on the Alan Rickman thing. So far he's been able to be intimidating at times and humorous in an understated way at others, but HBP and especially DH are going to require much more. He's played many different parts in other movies, so I'll hope for the best.
On a related note, I find it odd that the only thing we have to look forward to is how they do different scenes in the movies...(I think I might need to close my eyes if they do the snake coming out of an old woman's neck bit)
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MoaningMyrtle101 - Jul 22, 2007 6:50 am (#63 of 340)
My scattered thoughts about all of this:
The whole thing with Hermione's parents bothered me. I mean, I think I'd rather have them killed off than enter into magical witness protection. And they seem like reasonable sort of people who could be convinced to go into hiding of their own accord without magically altering their memories. Just a bit of unreasonably complicated and unexplained magic that really didn't need to be there. Especially since Hermione is only 17 years old (I know she's talented, but it was really hard to believe some of the spells she was able to perform). She hasn't ever tried even an ordinary memory modification spell, and suddenly is able to reprogram someone's identity? I'm not buying it.
Actually, I think the book would have worked just as well without some of the unintroduced bits of complex magic that suddenly appear throughout.
Loved the final Hogwarts battle scenes, sobbed my heart out about Fred and Dobby. I wish so much that we'd seen more of Snape. His death was a little bizarre, wasn't it? How did he manage to get the memories out of his head like that?
The dead Marauders and Lily part was probably the most touching thing I've ever read. That's now one of my favorite scenes in the series.
The prediction I was probably most firm about before all this started was that we'd make it back to the Department of Mysteries at some point, and maybe even have the final battle down there. Seeing the school rise up in revolt was just as rewarding as anything I could have imagined in the DoM, however, so I'm not complaining.
Glad I'm not the only one who feels a little dissatisfied with the epilogue, and has a hard time caring about the children of the Trio and Ginny when I just want to find out what happens to more of the characters we already know.
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Kevin Corbett - Jul 22, 2007 7:39 am (#64 of 340)
hellocello3200: Thanks for your flattering words (flattering in a good way). I think we inevitably wonder what the movies will do with a scene because the movies are, unfortunately, the only mainly "visual" interpretation of the books that we will maybe ever have, and the human mind naturally wants some kind of visual. What would be too delightful to hope for (at least in my life time) would be a comic-book (or "graphic-novel" if you like---I always thought the term a bit pretentious) interpretation. Of course, maybe in a few years when Scholastics lawyers aren't as vigilant, someone will make a fan version on the net or something, but it won't be the same as if a professional did it. I know this might not be a popular sentiment, but I sometimes wish they had opted for the films to be animated...if nothing else, it would end the problem of a Harry in his 20's my the time of DH.
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Caius Iulius - Jul 22, 2007 8:07 am (#65 of 340)
Pfooh, what a reading. But what a story! I enjoyed it very much.
First reactions:
I am so sorry Snape died, and needlessly too. But I loved his story, and his unending feelings for Lily.
Kreacher; I loved his part.
Dobby: very moving.
Pity we didn't see the Deathly Hallows combined and Harry using their (all of their) forces at the same time.
Remus and Tonks: I didn't understand why they had to die without us knowing when and how.
But some questions remain:
How did the Sorting Hat retrieve the sword?
Where is the Squib that would perform magic? I must have missed something.
Who is the married teacher we weren't allowed to know?
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Weeny Owl - Jul 22, 2007 8:36 am (#66 of 340)
Edited Jul 22, 2007 10:08 am
Hi, everyone
I know I've been a stranger lately, but I wanted to come by after this book and say hello.
I loved the book! I also hated the book, but that is due to emotions involving various characters and not the writing itself.
Things from interviews that she said would be in but weren't: What did Dudley experience with the Dementors? Who did magic late in life? There was something else I wondered about, but I can't recall it now. Okay... after thinking about it, I remembered... didn't JKR say we'd see the Ford Anglia again?
I was crushed when Harry lost Hedwig and his Firebolt, although that didn't move me to tears completely because so much else was going on. Mad-Eye wasn't a happy moment, but he didn't affect me a lot.
Snape... oh, poor Snape. I so wanted him to be vindicated and end up being Deputy Headmaster to McG's Headmistress. When I first joined the Lexicon Forum, Gina convinced me that Snape was on the right side. I've argued in his favor for quite a while now. The sad part is that Harry and Snape never had time to mend fences, although I would never imagine they'd end up friends.
Dobby... he made me cry. Kreacher... he surprised me, but by giving him respect, Harry made a friend. I cried when Hermione kissed Ron after Ron's comment about house-elves.
Ron... yeah, he had his moments when he could have behaved better, but so did Hermione and Harry, and with all the stress they were going through, it made sense. It also made sense that Ron regretted it and that Hermione was harder to make up with than Harry was.
Luna was a total delight, but what happened to her father? Did she end up with Dean? Luna is a character I've come to love so much.
Neville totally rocked! He definitely showed he was a true Gryffindor, both by leading the rebellion and by pulling the sword out of the Sorting Hat. I also loved his Gran! That made me smile. Neville being a professor is fabulous, and as one, he gets the respect he so much deserves, not only from the students, but from his fellow professors.
Dumbledore's story still has me feeling odd. I'm torn between admiring him for his overall life and what good he did, but disliking him for his attitudes and what he put Harry through in general. It makes sense in a lot of ways, but it still left me in a quandary.
Molly annoyed me as always, but I loved her in her battle with Bella.
Lupin disappointed me, but from what he said in PoA, his behavior is in character. I'm glad he and Tonks got married and had Teddy, but I didn't want them to die. Their deaths didn't affect me much because we didn't experience them. I'm sad, but moreso for Teddy than anything. I did find it perfect that Harry is now a godfather himself, and I have good feelings about Teddy growing up to be a fine man.
I wanted a much larger epilogue... Greyback bit Lavender, so is she a werewolf or not? Did Luna, Neville, Seamus, Dean, the Patil twins, George, and others get married? If so, to whom? Did Draco marry Pansy? What happened to Hagrid and Grawp? If McG is still Headmistress, who is the Deputy Head? Is Weasleys' Wizard Wheezes still in business? Is Lee Jordan working there with George, maybe? What about Angelina, Alicia, and Katie? Did Percy marry Penelope? What happened to the Malfoys? Did Umbridge ever get what's coming to her? Did Rita Skeeter?
I loved Ron and Hermione and Harry and Ginny marrying, and Albus Severus made me cry, especially after what Harry said about Snape.
What happened to Stan Shunpike? What about Florean Fortescue?
Oh, and Trelawney dropping crystal balls? That was a much-needed moment of amusement during a very dark time as was McG leading the charge.
DJ... don't be a stranger. You're much too wonderful not to keep in touch with, and I still hope that we can meet one day.
I do want to extend my condolences to Gina... sorry about your hubby, my dear.
Chemyst... thanks for writing. I have missed everyone, but real life gets in the way at times.
All in all, this was a very satisfactory book, but it definitely left me wanting more... not really more about Harry either.
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TomProffitt - Jul 22, 2007 9:03 am (#67 of 340)
Pity we didn't see the Deathly Hallows combined and Harry using their (all of their) forces at the same time. --- Caius Iulius
Ah, but we did see this. Harry had the wisdom of the Cloak to choose when not to fight and avoid battles in the Shreiking Shack and the Forbidden Forest. He had the compassion of the Stone to choose his own death to prevent the deaths of others. And finally he had the power of the Elder Wand to defeat Tom Riddle in the final duel.
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Caius Iulius - Jul 22, 2007 9:31 am (#68 of 340)
Tom Proffit,
But Harry didn't show them to Voldemort, as in "your Elder wand obeys me, and I have the other relics as well, and now I am going to defeat you". That, I would have liked better.
I loved Molly challenging Bellatrix, so very unexpected.
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TomProffitt - Jul 22, 2007 9:40 am (#69 of 340)
Caius Iulius,
But that's not the way they work, which to me is the point of the whole book if not the point of the whole series. It was no coincidence in my mind that Harry did not kill anyone in the book, not even a Horcrux. (I'll have to research to be certain, but I don't think he killed anyone)
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Caius Iulius - Jul 22, 2007 9:51 am (#70 of 340)
Tom Proffitt,
I see your point, although I didn't mean for Harry to AK Voldemort per se.
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frogface - Jul 22, 2007 10:15 am (#71 of 340)
They'll be talking about this book for years I loved it. I think its my favourite book of all seven. I'll probably re-read it again over the coming week a little more slowly. And I think it will be along time before we've ran out of things to discuss about this wonderful series, and I look forward to many many hours of continued debate with you all! Thank you, J.K.R, from the bottom of my heart
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Weeny Owl - Jul 22, 2007 10:23 am (#72 of 340)
I forgot to mention that I cried when Percy apologized to Arthur and made up with the entire family. That was a very touching scene.
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Ann - Jul 22, 2007 11:12 am (#73 of 340)
I loved the book--don't get me wrong. I think it will be even better on re-reading.
But it seemed to me that there was a huge structural flaw in JKR's presentation of Snape's friendship with Lily and his true loyalties. All those memories were presented without any real reaction from Harry. And when he comes out of the Pensieve, he is understandably preoccupied by the fact that Dumbledore believes (or seems to believe) that he will have to give his life to defeat Voldemort. We never really get to see Harry's reaction to the other things he's learned there. True, he talks about them to Voldemort and in the epilogue, and he's clearly changed his mind about Snape. But those should have been huge, life-altering revelations for him, and it seems to flatten them out a bit that we never see Harry getting past the hatred that is, at the end of HBP, described as greater than his hatred for Voldemort. It would also have been good to show more of Snape's reaction when Harry appeared as he was dying. He'd clearly been desperate to get to Harry and deliver Dumbledore's last message, as witness his frantic begging Voldemort to let him find him, and it must have been an incredible relief to have Harry appear in that last moment. I did appreciate that JKR allowed him to die looking into the eyes of his lifelong love, however.
There was much to love in the book, really. I'm pleased that Molly went after Bella. I thought she might have gone after someone who killed her brothers, or Fenrir, but attacking someone who threatened Ginny makes sense, too. (Makes one wonder about what the Horcrux taunted Ron with, though.) And it is sort of nice that she avenged Sirius, who she had had so much conflict with.
I loved Luna in this book. We'd speculated that she might be related to Ollivander (because of the eyes), but instead she comforts him in prison and saves his sanity. And I cried when Harry discovered what she'd painted on her bedroom ceiling. And the picture of her with her mother.
And I adored the bit when Ron saved Harry from the locket's stranglehold and got the sword. The taunting of the Horcrux was really hard to read--all of Ron's insecurities exposed--but the fact that he got past them and destroyed it was, I think, a turning point for him. And I really liked the exchange afterwards, when Harry listed his accomplishments and Ron said, you make it sound better than it is, and Harry says, yeah, it's always like that. (Not exact quotes--my husband has started the book, so I can't check.) It's a pity that Hermione's destruction of the cup happens off-stage.
I loved Hermione's clutch purse containing huge amounts of stuff. It reminded me of Moody's trunk. But if she had it in her sock at Malfoy Manor, one would think she might have whipped out an extra wand or two.
And I liked Harry's opening the Snitch "at the close," and the appearance of his parents, Sirius, and Lupin. I wept when Sirius had to assure him that death didn't hurt, and at Lupin's assurance that his son would know that he had died for a reason. But I would have been happier if Harry's final honor guard, as he marched off to his voluntary death at Voldemort's wand, had included Snape. But perhaps it did--perhaps Snape was there, too, but hanging back, watching over Lily's son, unnoticed and unappreciated, just as he had during his life.
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Nicholas Schouten - Jul 22, 2007 11:13 am (#74 of 340)
Great book! What an action ride! However, maybe there should be a book: "Hogwarts: An Epilogue". Hehehe.
-Nick
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wynnleaf - Jul 22, 2007 11:56 am (#75 of 340)
And I liked Harry's opening the Snitch "at the close," and the appearance of his parents, Sirius, and Lupin. I wept when Sirius had to assure him that death didn't hurt, and at Lupin's assurance that his son would know that he had died for a reason. But I would have been happier if Harry's final honor guard, as he marched off to his voluntary death at Voldemort's wand, had included Snape. But perhaps it did--perhaps Snape was there, too, but hanging back, watching over Lily's son, unnoticed and unappreciated, just as he had during his life. (Ann)
Oh, Ann, you made me cry and I don't think I've ever cried from anything on this Forum.
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mysweetdar - Jul 22, 2007 12:03 pm (#76 of 340)
Whew! I loved the book!!! Knew I would...Hedwig and Dobby broke my heart! Ron coming back, and saving Harry, and destroying the horcrux...The silver doe. I'm sure Umbridge got a one-way ticket to Azkaban-ville(tee-hee).Dudley and Harry treating each other like respectful adults, was great...Molly blew me away!!!!I liked when Harry paid Moody his final respects, the best he could. Umbridge using his eye for a peephole!!!Merlin's Pants!!!!!And Dobby..*sob* the way he buried him, and wrote his epitaph*tear*. And the Revolution at Hogwarts--Everybody showed up!!!! and McGonnigal--woo hoo!!!! And Neville--Go Neville!! a true Gryffindor!!The Percy arrival, was perfect! I cried so often...and I laughed--"Merlin's saggy left...." giggle!!!! I read it this first time so quickly--less than twelve hours, and I know I'll pick up more, on re-reads...but i loved it...Thank-you, Jo!!!!
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Kevin Corbett - Jul 22, 2007 12:48 pm (#77 of 340)
I know I've been posting too much, so I hope you might all forgive me. But of all the thoughts I've had so far, this one I find the most interesting:
In this book, we are presented with a challenge to Dumbledore's absolute goodness. As it turns out, Dumbledore really is (no...I mean really is) flawed, and that not all his flaws rose out of what is good and noble, like his loving Harry too much to tell him the truth about his fate, etc. He really was, at one time, a very Percy-esque figure, only with amplified intelligence and skill---indeed, can you imagine someone like Percy (I mean the Percy from before the last chapters of this one, of course) who was also extremely brilliant and powerful, not to mention a supremely skilled legilimens? It was only a dramatic "turn of the screw" in his sister's death, maybe at his own hands, that spared him from that fate, though at a heavy price. So Dumbledore was not always the saintlike figure he eventually became---indeed, that letter, with all its sinister self-justification, is the stuff of some of the most despicable political leaders history has known.
Also, though it is one of those blink-and-you'll-miss-it things, I think that the origin of Gryffindor's sword is quite intriguing in this light---Harry has certainly spared Godric Gryffindor himself little thought over the years, but here it turns out that the man to whom he, in a sense, "belonged to" in belonging to Gryffindor house, was also not this awesome force of untainted goodness, this figure of anti-Slytherin-ness, might not have been above stealing to get something. So it turns out (though it really isn't confirmed that its true or not) that Gryffindor might have been, and probably was, flawed as well.
Then we again have James. His and Sirius's first interview with Snape in the compartment makes its pretty plain who started their rivalry. The only thing Snape can be accused of is making a little noise about wanting to be in Gryffindor and saying Gryffindors were more about brawn than brains. We already new James was flawed, but this makes it a bit worse.
I don't mean to say, though, that these three were, in the end, bad people. I can't say much for Gryffindor, but Dumbledore realized his mistake eventually. James...James seems to me a bit of a self-righteous bully, but I don't doubt he was a good person on the whole. However, I his goodness seems, to me, to be a result of the fact that his parents, though they spoiled him, taught him right from wrong, thought they might have given him a very black and white understanding of the matter that didn't take shades of gray into account as much as they should have. I wonder now if, were a person of James temperament put in a position like that of Harry or Snape, he would have come out so well.
Now, in counterpoint to these examples we have two characters: Snape and Regulus.
Snape had a very bad beginning. It's obvious his upbringing was quite bad. On the one hand, his father "hated everything" and his mother...this entirely a guess, but I think it was from his mother that he got his first inclination toward Slytherin, a house that was only to ready to teach a boy used to friendlessness and cruelty from ever corner that, well, "Magic is Might", essentially. As we now know, it is apparently at least something of a choice which house you go into...I think that, from his apparently favoring intelligence, that had he never heard of Slytherin, he would probably have been sorted into Ravenclaw and his fate might have been quite different for him.
Of course, Snape made a horrible choice by joining the Death Eaters, and he paid for it for the rest of his life by his choice that Dumbledore "never reveal the best" of him. For the remainder of his life, Dumbledore was the only person who, I hope you will excuse my language, gave a damn about him. The rest of the Order distrusted him, only tolerating him on Dumbledore's orders, and the Death Eaters (if their esteem could be valued at aught) distrusted him just as much and only tolerated him because Voldemort made them...and Voldemort basically just made use of him, though this was no different than any of his Death Eaters. He allowed the world to think him the worst, most despicable traitor, to think he had killed his only friend, and he accepted it. I am not trying to defend the way he treated Harry or his general unpleasantness, but especially at the end, he shouldered quite a burden. Severus Snape made one terrible mistake---but was it worse than Dumbledore's? Remember, Dumbledore was planning some truly awful things, and it was only an accident that prevented him going further down that road. But unlike Dumbledore, everyone knew Snape's mistake and most hated him for it. Dumbledore was loved by nearly everyone, but Snape's only friend was Dumbledore. I don't, though mean to set Snape higher that Dumbledore, because the former's crime was probably more serious, but they are very nearly even when you consider that Snape had to pay for his mistake not only in his heart like Dumbledore, but in the public eye as well.
Then there is Regulus. We've all been obsessing over him for so long, and it seems he's almost escaped our notice. Everyone, it seemed, hated Regulus as well, except Kreacher and maybe his mother, though that might have changed if she had known he'd betrayed Voldemort. Sirius's characterization of him as a smarmy, arrogant bastard may well have been apt, but I think he more than made up for it. His death is especially shocking when you consider how he had been raised to think of house-elfs, with their heads all mounted on the wall. Although Mrs. Black may have been kind to Kreacher, I cannot fathom it a kindness that extended beyond him serving her needs and him being an obedient little slave. Given the upbringing he must have had, if he had to get rid of the horcrux, you would think he would have used Kreacher just as Voldemort had---but instead, he essentially sacrifices himself in place of Kreacher, and does not even leave a last vindication of his eventual goodness to Sirius (though Sirius, disgusting as this may sound, might well have thought it far better to use Kreacher in the way I just mentioned) or any word of his fate to his family, just to keep them safe---if they became the enemies of the Dark Lord, they too might be killed, as Hermione said.
I think, maybe, that JKR was here trying to say something about the nature of heroism. I don't mean, she was trying to say something like, All your heroes are big frauds, or something. More that heroes can and do have serious flaws, though this doesn't make them any less heroes. And also, that besides what might be called "usual heroism" there is a kind of hero and a kind of bravery that is all the more remarkable because it rises out of slag and ashes of sin and bad circumstances from which it has no business rising, almost like the phoenix.
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Michael Franz - Jul 22, 2007 1:31 pm (#78 of 340)
Did anyone notice that J.K.'s explanation of what happens when a Secret-Keeper dies on her Web site was completely contradicted by Deathly Hallows? She said that everyone who knew the secret would continue to know it, but no one else would. In the book, however, everyone who knew the secret became a Secret-Keeper, meaning they could all tell others about the secret.
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Flo - Jul 22, 2007 1:44 pm (#79 of 340)
Hello All,
Wow ! What an emotional journey. The book was fantastic, thanks Jo.
I did not really like the epilogue, as it has already been said.
I already have two questions : - how did Regulus manage to refill the basin with the green potion after taking the locket ? Maybe I read too fast, but I do not remember having had an explanation about it
- after reading HBP, I had understood that Dumbledore had damaged his hand while fighting with LV. DH however reveals that the damaging is due to Dumbledore's putting on the ring. Therefore what did Snape refer to in HBP when he said that Dumbledore was getting old and fighting less good as his last encounter with the Dark Lord had shown?
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wynnleaf - Jul 22, 2007 2:07 pm (#80 of 340)
Kevin Corbett
That was an excellent essay. Thanks for posting it. I particularly liked your comments on Regulas. I had sort of forgotten about his part in the book. I need to start reading it again.
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KTO - Jul 22, 2007 2:33 pm (#81 of 340)
I loved the book and am thrilled that others have already admitted they are going to start a re-read immediately, I am joining this group and my husband thinks I am crazy.
Harry walking into the woods to sacrifice himself, similar to Aslan in Narnia. For those who believe that there is no "God" in Harry Potter and that the books are evil all I have to say if you are not able to view this scene as another literary example of the resurrection of Christ (whatever your personal beliefs,for full disclosure my faith is not Christian) go back and read it again.
Not only was Harry 'resurrected" but his sacrifice extended protection to all.
I loved the morals taught throughout the series. Much worse ways to teach your children about good vs. evil then through the Harry Potter books. KT
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Madame Librarian - Jul 22, 2007 2:42 pm (#82 of 340)
Back again after a long absence...
I loved this book! Whoa, what a ride. JKR produced an amazingly complex, fast-paced finalé to the saga. I agree with so many of the comments already made in previous posts.
I was almost physically jolted at certain points (when Hedwig is fatally hit so soon in the story, I had to put the book down and walk around the room a bit).
I was weeping during the whole Dobby thing and even Kreacher's hearfelt reversal toward Harry (and Harry's toward him) moved me a lot.
I had a bad feeling about Lupin as soon as he appears in the book simply because we get such a thin, unsatisfying picture of what's going on with him. It just didn't ring true somehow.
I think JKR is due many kudos for her consummate skill in weaving backstory with heart pounding action as well as close-in relationship scenes. There is a smoothness that keeps the story flowing so well, no slow spots, no draggy stuff.
The latter third of the book still had me guessing (I was as confused as Harry) as to how the story would play out. Yes, many of our Forum predictions unfolded just as we said they would, but there was still a sense of revelation and novelty about the Hallows and their importance vis a vis the horcruxes. It was a brilliant construct by JKR to be introduced at this late stage in the story, yet still give it generous treatment.
I liked all the incidental magic that was used. I felt that the two earlier books lacked a bit of that. Again, I praise JKR for working it seamlessly into the action.
I'm really glad I didn't have to have a blood pressure check during the whole "death" of Harry bit when he gets to talk to his folks, Sirius and Lupin by using the Resurrection Stone. I was so upset, so moved. I was sure that JKR was writing a "Harry Dies" ending and softening the awful blow by having Harry be amongst those who loved him. Again, I had to get up and walk around (I folded laundry for heaven sake!) before I could continue reading. When I realized that, no, it wasn't going to play out that way, I was so relieved, yet hugely satisfied at the brilliant way JKR handled that whole issue.
A few minor complaints, easily ignored considering the whole: Dobby showing up in the nick of time at the Malfoy manor was too much like a "deus ex machina." The Tonks and Lupin thing (mentioned above). The lack of meaty scenes with Snape...thought there would be much more between Snape and Harry especially based on that first chapter. Am still muddled a bit over the Elder Wand ownership thing, but I'm sure someone will succintly explain it and/or when I re-read, it'll be crystal clear.
And, my biggest problem--that epilogue. A tad too treacle-y for me. The "lived happily ever after" bit was overdone. I wasn't terrbily interested in who the kids were named after. We still don't know what Harry, etal do for a living (except good ol' Neville...hooray Neville). And, I guess I was a bit disturbed that there still seemed to be this intense (maybe too strong a word there, but...) dislike between Slytherin and Gryffindor houses at Hogwarts. I was glad to read that Hogwarts as a grand old school survived and thrived, but I had hoped that one of the messages carried through to the end would be the one the Sorting Hat kept harping on--how the houses had to unite. Oh well, maybe JKR was just being realistic there. Still, it was a cheezy epilogue. I agree with whoever said it would have been more satisfying to set the epilogue just one or two years later.
All in all: wonderful book!
Ciao, Barb
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The giant squid - Jul 22, 2007 3:16 pm (#83 of 340)
All of you have described my feelings very well already. Kevin, you've summed things up perfectly. Kudos. The two things I want to comment on are:
Molly Weasley--I nearly cheered out loud when she took on Bella (I would have, but my wife was asleep). It was unexpected that Molly would be the one to take her down, but I always expected there to be a moment where we get so see what Molly's really made of, and having it happen in defense of her little girl made perfect sense.
The locked room--What was the deal there? Did I miss something that explained what was going on there or what? I was sure it would figure into the finale somehow.
Yes, I would have like to see more of Lupin & Tonks' final fight. I guess I feel like Lupin especially deserved to go out "on screen".
--Mike
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Madame Librarian - Jul 22, 2007 3:34 pm (#84 of 340)
After reading through comments (mostly raves) on this thread, it's clear that there are still some muddled spots and unanswered questions. May I suggest that there be such a thread ("Still Unanswered") when the managers get around to organizing everything.
A few of the issues I'd include would be
Who does magic late in life? (I was betting on scene where Filch rises to the occasion to protect his Mrs. Norris or the school building itself.)
What does Harry end up doing for a living? What about the others?
Did Molly throw an AK at Bella or just a really powerful stunner that his over the heart, making a mortal injury?
What's with the veil...we never find out what that's all about?
How does George handle things after Fred is killed? We never hear from him again really.
The Elder Wand sequence of rightful owners is not yet crystal to me.
And so on.
I don't mean this to be a list starter here, but just an example of things we could post to a thread meant to discuss these very issues.
Ciao. Barb
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Geber - Jul 22, 2007 3:39 pm (#85 of 340)
Did anyone find out why Harry inheriting his mother's eyes is important?
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Mare - Jul 22, 2007 3:49 pm (#86 of 340)
Madame Librarian, there is a thread for unanswered questions here: Kip Carter, "Questions Not Answered" #, 21 Jul 2007 6:41 am
That folder is quite at the bottom of our forums, so it's somewhat harder to locate.
We could do with a mistakes in DH thread too, there seem to be some inconsistencies.
I wonder if there will ever be a completely edited version of all seven books. Could I dream of an unabridged one?
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wynnleaf - Jul 22, 2007 4:29 pm (#87 of 340)
Did anyone find out why Harry inheriting his mother's eyes is important?
As far as I could tell, the primary importance was because Snape loved Lily and saw her eyes in Harry. And that DD used that once to try to manipulate Snape a bit. And maybe at the end, Snape told Harry to look at him because he wanted to see her eyes.
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Solitaire - Jul 22, 2007 4:32 pm (#88 of 340)
Wowie-wow! What an emotional rollercoaster. I posted just that much on the chat thread, and I've seen others use the same comparison here on this thread ... but it is so appropriate. It was a rollercoaster ... and a fast and emotional one, too. I knew when Hedwig and Mad-Eye got it, right out of the gate, that it would be a rough ride. I choked when Mrs. Weasley told Harry to take her up and put her with Pigwidgeon. I cried so hard for Dobby and Fred that I had to close the book and get up and do something else for a while, because my head was hurting so badly. Like others, I felt that seeing Tonks and Remus dead--without seeing the battle--lacked something.
I loved Hermione's purse ... I want one! I loved that Ron saved Harry's life and destroyed a Horcrux ... and one that was horrible for him. I think it finally made him feel like what he truly was but hadn't realized it--an indispensable part of the team.
I've always loved Neville, but he was truly shining in this book. I wonder if he even has a boggart anymore. I hope Gran Longbottom finally accords her grandson the respect he deserves. Funny ... I was hoping we'd see Trevor.
Wasn't Luna an absolute gem! I was reminded of someone's suggestion that she would help Harry uncover the Ravenclaw artifact by saying something like "I hear Rowena Ravenclaw was extremely fond of tiaras." That remark was not too far amiss, because it was her talk of the diadem that helped them figure it out, I think.
I truly loved watching Kreacher's character unfold. By acknowledging Kreacher's love for Regulus and rewarding his service with the fake locket--which had meaning to Kreacher--Harry earned his loyalty. I wonder ... did he keep Kreacher, leave him at Hogwarts, or set him free? Given his inscription on Dobby's gravestone, I am hoping the latter.
Weren't Crabbe and Goyle a couple of pills in the RoR? And I wanted to slap Pansy Parkinson's face when she gave Harry away in the Great Hall. Anyone else care to join me?
I forgave Narcissa all her nastiness when she didn't give Harry away. I liked seeing the Malfoys standing together at the end celebration, unsure, kind of disoriented. It was a nice change from their usual arrogance.
Again, like others, I did not see who did that "emergency magic." I also want to know what happened to Florean Fortescue and who the mysterious Hogwarts spouse was. I'll think of more, I'm sure, in the coming days and hours. I must say, I loved this book just as much as the first one (my previous favorite) ... maybe even more.
Kevin, I like your comment about the nature of our flawed heroes. After all, aren't most real heroes just regular people ... who somehow manage to find extraordinary courage when they need it most? Looking back at Harry's heroes--Lily, James, Sirius, Remus, Dumbledore, and, finally, Snape (it took him long enough to get there)--all but Lily had some serious character flaws. Still, when they needed to step up to the plate ... they all did. When Harry needed their strength and encouragement, they gave it.
Thanks, Jo, for a great, great ride! I loved every minute of it.
Solitaire
PS Neville is my new hero!
PS #2 Didn't you just love the blue eye in the mirror?
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rassannassar - Jul 22, 2007 6:15 pm (#89 of 340)
I can't remember what chapter it was in, but when you read it so fast they all kind of blend together. Anyway, at the end of the wedding, when Kingsley's Patronus warns them of the imminent danger, it just kind of made things real for me. I felt like I was one of the guests at the wedding, and when I read what Kingsley said, I kind of just paused, in shock and disbelief, and then realized, "Oh my God, this is it. What are we going to do?" I know that that was going to happen no matter what, but it still just seemed so amazing that I could feel so affected by that one particular point in the book.
As far as the Diadem being in the Room of Requirement-- It should have been obvious that there would have been a Horcrux hidden in a room where everything is hidden.
All in all, I thought it was an amazing book, Particularly the fact that Harry never killed anyone. He never stooped so low as to murder anyone, not even in self-defense.
And, like a lot of others said, I didn't completely like the Epilogue, and it kind of reminded me that the first two books weren't as well written (in my opinion), but I like that it left things open for the reader to think what he or she would like. Especially the ending, "All is well." Not "All was well."
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EbonyRebel - Jul 22, 2007 6:26 pm (#90 of 340)
Without doubt my favourite book of the series. I'm delighted to be able to say it, because I expected to be too traumatised by all the deaths to hold more than a passing regard for 7. Happy ending notwithstanding, it was certainly a highly emotional journey - I had to stop reading more times than I could count, and take out my emotions on my poor piano!
I am devastated about Snape. He is, without doubt, the loneliest character I have ever encountered, and that he never got the redemption he so desperately deserved just breaks my heart.
As for the epilogue, I must be one of the few people who enjoyed it! I warmed to the children immediately - cheeky little gits! The only thing I missed was mention of George - I really wanted to know that he managed to cope without Fred.
I can't wait for the encyclopedia of Potter to come out.....
I've just got to say, how good is JK Rowling? After Half Blood Prince I was firmly in the Severus is good camp, but after reading the first few chapters I was seriously doubting my convictions. JKR kept me guessing right up to the moment of Snape's death about that.
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Ollivander’s Apprentice - Jul 21, 2007 8:15 pm (#52 of 340)
TomProffitt, can you give me a page number for when Harry says this? It certainly can be inferred but I cannot find it actually stated clearly. Dumbledore does say that Harry is the true master of death because he doesn't fear it but never claims this power comes from the Hallows themselves.
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TomProffitt - Jul 21, 2007 8:33 pm (#53 of 340)
Ollivander, just did a bit of checking (I've only read it once), but in DH US Version pp. 741 - 744 Harry explains how that he is in possession of the Elder Wand and not Voldemort. It was at the point that I read this that I realized Harry had had all three Deathly Hallows when he sought out his own death in the Forbidden Forest. So, I filled in blanks from the "King's Cross Chapter" and realized that Grindelwald's pursuit of immortality through the Hallows was as hollow as Voldemort's pursuit of immortality through Horcruxes.
So no, the explanation is not as explicit as I had thought, but it is there (in opinion anyway).
EDIT: The power comes from wisdom not from the Hallows themselves.
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Pamzter - Jul 21, 2007 9:05 pm (#54 of 340)
I knew that Lupin was going to die but was very surprised about Tonks. I wanted to see what happened to them though - to see Lupin either protecting Tonks or going crazy over her murder. I wanted to see some PASSION in him for once.
Surprised myself by tearing up when Percy showed up. I've never really cared for that storyline.
I liked the kids' names in the epilogue, Harry had his James, Lily, Albus as real family.
So, did Bill and Fleur name their daughter after Viktor???
I can't wait for the movie version of Julie Walter vs. Helene Bonham Carter!!!
While there are a few more things I'd like more information on, what is the old adage? "Always leave them wanting more." That Jo did.
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dizzy lizzy - Jul 21, 2007 10:48 pm (#55 of 340)
Oh what a book! I finished 24 hours ago but spent the time impatiently waiting to get onto the net to say so!!!!
I loved it. Tightly written, well edited and I got the point of the baby at the station almost immediately. I really think this is the best of the lot.
I don't have a lot of time left so I shall leave it here. here's hoping I can come back and talk some more.
Lizzy
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Mare - Jul 22, 2007 1:22 am (#56 of 340)
Some more thoughts: Ponine, I think you were right, if both Harry and Marvolo descended from one of the Peverell lines, than Harry and Voldemort were related somewhere somehow. It doesn't nesecarily mean that Harry descended from slytherin though, could have been a different Peverell.
Also, Harry defeats Voldemort with his signature Expelliarmus, the one Snape showed him (reluctantly) in book 2. Very nicely done.
About the chapter Kreachers tale, there are some things that do not ad d up, The first time Voldemort uses Kreacher to drink the potion, he actively refills the bassin, so... who refilled the bassin after Regulus drank the potion?
And how did Regulus managed to drink it all anyway, Dumbledore needed Harry to force him, but Kreacher never states he needed to do that for Regulus?
And last, in that chapter after the story Harry uses Voldemorts names several times when it allready has a taboo on it. Wouldn't the DE's have known for certain then that he was staying in GP12?
Anyways: I don't know if hiding was the best thing to do, but I enjoyed this book more than any of the others and I think the hiding helped.
I have the same feeling, I am very glad I didn't spoiled half the book for myself by all the theories on this forum, the most people here are just too smart and I was more pleased to be surprised this time.
I also thought that Peters dead was a bit.. of an anticlimax, I have the feeling that when she wrote PoA she might have considered a bigger role for the life debt.
And I think Bill and Fleurs daughter, is like Viktor named for victory. I wonder now if Viktor was named like that because his parents wanted to (belated) remember the victory over Grindelwald, one of them lost a father because of him.
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Anna L. Black - Jul 22, 2007 2:11 am (#57 of 340)
Wonderful, simply wonderful! This book was so funny, scary, touching...
Seriously, in the first third or so, I kept laughing every 3 or 4 pages - JK's humor, even in the sad/frightening situations is excellent. 'Ear, 'ear -
The second third was very frightening. Godric's Hollow, especially so. So much darkness all around the Trio (and without Ron, it wasn't really the same - I was so happy when he came back!)
The last part was action all over, filled with this information-giving scenes I like so much since HBP. I particularly liked Aberforth and his story, and The Prince's tale was everything I hoped for, which surprised me, as I previously didn't want it to be "Snape loved Lily". She put a totally different angle on that, however, it was wonderful to read.
This was also the emotional part. I didn't cry when Mad-Eye and Hedwig died, and surprisingly - neither when Dobby died. But when they met Neville and he told them of the resistance, I had tears welling up in my eyes. And then (here I really surprised myself) - when Percy came back, I had tears again, even stronger this time. I didn't feel much when Fred went down (I expected it to happen, and frankly - we didn't really see him going down...). The most emotional moment I had was when Harry faced the dead Marauders, and when he said to Remus that he was sorry... here I broke down.
Anyway, spectacular ending, I'm really glad that Hagrid survived (I was sure he's a goner), I was immensely sad to see Snape die in the way he did (especially as it was utterly pointless, even on LV's behalf). I liked the epilogue, though I agree that I would've liked to hear what happened to the others - Luna, in particular.
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shadzar - Jul 22, 2007 3:37 am (#58 of 340)
Edited by Kip Carter Jul 22, 2007 7:58 am
so harry was a horcrux, and harry did die...???
oh boy. when the paperback full set comes out so i can buy it and finally read the books i have a lot of stuff to digest.
seems from what you all are saying that she did leave room for another book, if nothing more than an extended epiloque. but the 19 year gap doesn't leave for much excitement to be had, but mundane daily activities...which is what Harry always longed for.
shadzar, I strongly suggest that you start following the Philosophy of this Forum and our guidelines or your Participant status could be changed. I edited your post above, using only some of the basic rules of punctuation and capitalization of words, so that others hopefully could understand what you attempted to convey. I wish I had the time to do more, but I do not!
So Harry was a horcrux, and Harry did die...???
Oh boy. When the paperback full set comes out so I can buy it and finally read the books I have a lot of stuff to digest.
Seems from what you all are saying that she did leave room for another book, if nothing more than an extended epiloque. But the 19 year gap doesn't leave for much excitement to be had, but mundane daily activities...which is what Harry always longed for.
You have thirty (30) minutes after you post to edit your message. Please use those 30 minutes wisely. Take pride in your posts!
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Kerstin - Jul 22, 2007 3:44 am (#59 of 340)
There are still a few things that make me wonder...
The Elder Wand: It?s been said that you have to win a fight against the actual owner to become the new true owner, to possess it is not enough to make it work for you. OK, therefore it didn?t work for LV. But I think the chain was interrupted earlier: Grindelwald stole the wand from Gregorovitch. So whoever took it over from then would have had to fight Gregorovitch to become its master.
Magic late in life: Ron speaking Parseltongue doesn?t seem right to be the magic late in life. I thought of a person who hadn?t done any magic so far.
And I feel pretty much like Mare about the epilogue: so many names without personal relations at least for us.
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Miss Malaprop - Jul 22, 2007 4:36 am (#60 of 340)
When I got to the end of the book, I didn?t really want to read the epilogue, didn?t need to. I think it was more for the shippers. And Scorpius! What a name to give an innocent baby!
I loved the relationship between Lily and ?Tuney.? So sad that Petunia wrote to Dumbledore requesting entry to Hogwarts. She will have my sympathy when I reread the series.
This is the only HP book I?ve ever cried in (I was very jittery when I began reading) ? I sobbed for Dobby, howled for Remus and Tonks ? mainly for little orphan Teddy ? and wept for Harry as he went forward into death. ?You brave, brave man!? All those poor people who thought there would only be 2 deaths?they were in for a shock!
Character I was most proud of: Neville!
Character I wanted to see more of: Snape. I wish he could have been sure that Harry finally understood him.
Character I was most mistaken about: Ron ? I thought his newfound tact and maturity meant he was a Polyjuiced imposter! I?ve always been fearful that he would betray Harry in some way, so glad I was wrong!
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Good Evans - Jul 22, 2007 4:56 am (#61 of 340)
I missed the hogwarts teachers (til the end obviously) and all of the normal format. Loved mcGonnagall - How gallant of you Potter
Percy I knew it!!! But I really did think he was a goner!!
Not my daughter, you bitch - Molly, you are perfect!!!
Tonks and Lupin - I guess it had to be - I missed Tonks at the end, Lupin reappeared with the others but no 'Dora
Kreacher - really warmed to him and the whole story - DD was right treat your inferiors well .....
loved DD at kings cross
oh so much - need to re read expecially the end - not sue about the names for the children - would not middle names have been a nice tribute for Albus ? anyhow liked the tie ins, but so many questions about what happened to some of them, I would like to know what they were doing for a living - did they ever go back to finish, How could George carry on without Fred, did he marry Verity?
You know she can always write more books - but we wont see the central charcters again, unless they litterally have a cameo, she is right - Harry's story is done. Looking forward to listening to the CD.
I went back through the quick predicitons thread - you know no one got all the deaths right, that they predicted. And although hermys parents didnt die - I was so pleased that JK dealt with it in a reasonable way. HOORAY
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hellocello3200 - Jul 22, 2007 6:28 am (#62 of 340)
I agree with Kevin on the Alan Rickman thing. So far he's been able to be intimidating at times and humorous in an understated way at others, but HBP and especially DH are going to require much more. He's played many different parts in other movies, so I'll hope for the best.
On a related note, I find it odd that the only thing we have to look forward to is how they do different scenes in the movies...(I think I might need to close my eyes if they do the snake coming out of an old woman's neck bit)
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MoaningMyrtle101 - Jul 22, 2007 6:50 am (#63 of 340)
My scattered thoughts about all of this:
The whole thing with Hermione's parents bothered me. I mean, I think I'd rather have them killed off than enter into magical witness protection. And they seem like reasonable sort of people who could be convinced to go into hiding of their own accord without magically altering their memories. Just a bit of unreasonably complicated and unexplained magic that really didn't need to be there. Especially since Hermione is only 17 years old (I know she's talented, but it was really hard to believe some of the spells she was able to perform). She hasn't ever tried even an ordinary memory modification spell, and suddenly is able to reprogram someone's identity? I'm not buying it.
Actually, I think the book would have worked just as well without some of the unintroduced bits of complex magic that suddenly appear throughout.
Loved the final Hogwarts battle scenes, sobbed my heart out about Fred and Dobby. I wish so much that we'd seen more of Snape. His death was a little bizarre, wasn't it? How did he manage to get the memories out of his head like that?
The dead Marauders and Lily part was probably the most touching thing I've ever read. That's now one of my favorite scenes in the series.
The prediction I was probably most firm about before all this started was that we'd make it back to the Department of Mysteries at some point, and maybe even have the final battle down there. Seeing the school rise up in revolt was just as rewarding as anything I could have imagined in the DoM, however, so I'm not complaining.
Glad I'm not the only one who feels a little dissatisfied with the epilogue, and has a hard time caring about the children of the Trio and Ginny when I just want to find out what happens to more of the characters we already know.
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Kevin Corbett - Jul 22, 2007 7:39 am (#64 of 340)
hellocello3200: Thanks for your flattering words (flattering in a good way). I think we inevitably wonder what the movies will do with a scene because the movies are, unfortunately, the only mainly "visual" interpretation of the books that we will maybe ever have, and the human mind naturally wants some kind of visual. What would be too delightful to hope for (at least in my life time) would be a comic-book (or "graphic-novel" if you like---I always thought the term a bit pretentious) interpretation. Of course, maybe in a few years when Scholastics lawyers aren't as vigilant, someone will make a fan version on the net or something, but it won't be the same as if a professional did it. I know this might not be a popular sentiment, but I sometimes wish they had opted for the films to be animated...if nothing else, it would end the problem of a Harry in his 20's my the time of DH.
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Caius Iulius - Jul 22, 2007 8:07 am (#65 of 340)
Pfooh, what a reading. But what a story! I enjoyed it very much.
First reactions:
I am so sorry Snape died, and needlessly too. But I loved his story, and his unending feelings for Lily.
Kreacher; I loved his part.
Dobby: very moving.
Pity we didn't see the Deathly Hallows combined and Harry using their (all of their) forces at the same time.
Remus and Tonks: I didn't understand why they had to die without us knowing when and how.
But some questions remain:
How did the Sorting Hat retrieve the sword?
Where is the Squib that would perform magic? I must have missed something.
Who is the married teacher we weren't allowed to know?
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Weeny Owl - Jul 22, 2007 8:36 am (#66 of 340)
Edited Jul 22, 2007 10:08 am
Hi, everyone
I know I've been a stranger lately, but I wanted to come by after this book and say hello.
I loved the book! I also hated the book, but that is due to emotions involving various characters and not the writing itself.
Things from interviews that she said would be in but weren't: What did Dudley experience with the Dementors? Who did magic late in life? There was something else I wondered about, but I can't recall it now. Okay... after thinking about it, I remembered... didn't JKR say we'd see the Ford Anglia again?
I was crushed when Harry lost Hedwig and his Firebolt, although that didn't move me to tears completely because so much else was going on. Mad-Eye wasn't a happy moment, but he didn't affect me a lot.
Snape... oh, poor Snape. I so wanted him to be vindicated and end up being Deputy Headmaster to McG's Headmistress. When I first joined the Lexicon Forum, Gina convinced me that Snape was on the right side. I've argued in his favor for quite a while now. The sad part is that Harry and Snape never had time to mend fences, although I would never imagine they'd end up friends.
Dobby... he made me cry. Kreacher... he surprised me, but by giving him respect, Harry made a friend. I cried when Hermione kissed Ron after Ron's comment about house-elves.
Ron... yeah, he had his moments when he could have behaved better, but so did Hermione and Harry, and with all the stress they were going through, it made sense. It also made sense that Ron regretted it and that Hermione was harder to make up with than Harry was.
Luna was a total delight, but what happened to her father? Did she end up with Dean? Luna is a character I've come to love so much.
Neville totally rocked! He definitely showed he was a true Gryffindor, both by leading the rebellion and by pulling the sword out of the Sorting Hat. I also loved his Gran! That made me smile. Neville being a professor is fabulous, and as one, he gets the respect he so much deserves, not only from the students, but from his fellow professors.
Dumbledore's story still has me feeling odd. I'm torn between admiring him for his overall life and what good he did, but disliking him for his attitudes and what he put Harry through in general. It makes sense in a lot of ways, but it still left me in a quandary.
Molly annoyed me as always, but I loved her in her battle with Bella.
Lupin disappointed me, but from what he said in PoA, his behavior is in character. I'm glad he and Tonks got married and had Teddy, but I didn't want them to die. Their deaths didn't affect me much because we didn't experience them. I'm sad, but moreso for Teddy than anything. I did find it perfect that Harry is now a godfather himself, and I have good feelings about Teddy growing up to be a fine man.
I wanted a much larger epilogue... Greyback bit Lavender, so is she a werewolf or not? Did Luna, Neville, Seamus, Dean, the Patil twins, George, and others get married? If so, to whom? Did Draco marry Pansy? What happened to Hagrid and Grawp? If McG is still Headmistress, who is the Deputy Head? Is Weasleys' Wizard Wheezes still in business? Is Lee Jordan working there with George, maybe? What about Angelina, Alicia, and Katie? Did Percy marry Penelope? What happened to the Malfoys? Did Umbridge ever get what's coming to her? Did Rita Skeeter?
I loved Ron and Hermione and Harry and Ginny marrying, and Albus Severus made me cry, especially after what Harry said about Snape.
What happened to Stan Shunpike? What about Florean Fortescue?
Oh, and Trelawney dropping crystal balls? That was a much-needed moment of amusement during a very dark time as was McG leading the charge.
DJ... don't be a stranger. You're much too wonderful not to keep in touch with, and I still hope that we can meet one day.
I do want to extend my condolences to Gina... sorry about your hubby, my dear.
Chemyst... thanks for writing. I have missed everyone, but real life gets in the way at times.
All in all, this was a very satisfactory book, but it definitely left me wanting more... not really more about Harry either.
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TomProffitt - Jul 22, 2007 9:03 am (#67 of 340)
Pity we didn't see the Deathly Hallows combined and Harry using their (all of their) forces at the same time. --- Caius Iulius
Ah, but we did see this. Harry had the wisdom of the Cloak to choose when not to fight and avoid battles in the Shreiking Shack and the Forbidden Forest. He had the compassion of the Stone to choose his own death to prevent the deaths of others. And finally he had the power of the Elder Wand to defeat Tom Riddle in the final duel.
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Caius Iulius - Jul 22, 2007 9:31 am (#68 of 340)
Tom Proffit,
But Harry didn't show them to Voldemort, as in "your Elder wand obeys me, and I have the other relics as well, and now I am going to defeat you". That, I would have liked better.
I loved Molly challenging Bellatrix, so very unexpected.
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TomProffitt - Jul 22, 2007 9:40 am (#69 of 340)
Caius Iulius,
But that's not the way they work, which to me is the point of the whole book if not the point of the whole series. It was no coincidence in my mind that Harry did not kill anyone in the book, not even a Horcrux. (I'll have to research to be certain, but I don't think he killed anyone)
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Caius Iulius - Jul 22, 2007 9:51 am (#70 of 340)
Tom Proffitt,
I see your point, although I didn't mean for Harry to AK Voldemort per se.
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frogface - Jul 22, 2007 10:15 am (#71 of 340)
They'll be talking about this book for years I loved it. I think its my favourite book of all seven. I'll probably re-read it again over the coming week a little more slowly. And I think it will be along time before we've ran out of things to discuss about this wonderful series, and I look forward to many many hours of continued debate with you all! Thank you, J.K.R, from the bottom of my heart
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Weeny Owl - Jul 22, 2007 10:23 am (#72 of 340)
I forgot to mention that I cried when Percy apologized to Arthur and made up with the entire family. That was a very touching scene.
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Ann - Jul 22, 2007 11:12 am (#73 of 340)
I loved the book--don't get me wrong. I think it will be even better on re-reading.
But it seemed to me that there was a huge structural flaw in JKR's presentation of Snape's friendship with Lily and his true loyalties. All those memories were presented without any real reaction from Harry. And when he comes out of the Pensieve, he is understandably preoccupied by the fact that Dumbledore believes (or seems to believe) that he will have to give his life to defeat Voldemort. We never really get to see Harry's reaction to the other things he's learned there. True, he talks about them to Voldemort and in the epilogue, and he's clearly changed his mind about Snape. But those should have been huge, life-altering revelations for him, and it seems to flatten them out a bit that we never see Harry getting past the hatred that is, at the end of HBP, described as greater than his hatred for Voldemort. It would also have been good to show more of Snape's reaction when Harry appeared as he was dying. He'd clearly been desperate to get to Harry and deliver Dumbledore's last message, as witness his frantic begging Voldemort to let him find him, and it must have been an incredible relief to have Harry appear in that last moment. I did appreciate that JKR allowed him to die looking into the eyes of his lifelong love, however.
There was much to love in the book, really. I'm pleased that Molly went after Bella. I thought she might have gone after someone who killed her brothers, or Fenrir, but attacking someone who threatened Ginny makes sense, too. (Makes one wonder about what the Horcrux taunted Ron with, though.) And it is sort of nice that she avenged Sirius, who she had had so much conflict with.
I loved Luna in this book. We'd speculated that she might be related to Ollivander (because of the eyes), but instead she comforts him in prison and saves his sanity. And I cried when Harry discovered what she'd painted on her bedroom ceiling. And the picture of her with her mother.
And I adored the bit when Ron saved Harry from the locket's stranglehold and got the sword. The taunting of the Horcrux was really hard to read--all of Ron's insecurities exposed--but the fact that he got past them and destroyed it was, I think, a turning point for him. And I really liked the exchange afterwards, when Harry listed his accomplishments and Ron said, you make it sound better than it is, and Harry says, yeah, it's always like that. (Not exact quotes--my husband has started the book, so I can't check.) It's a pity that Hermione's destruction of the cup happens off-stage.
I loved Hermione's clutch purse containing huge amounts of stuff. It reminded me of Moody's trunk. But if she had it in her sock at Malfoy Manor, one would think she might have whipped out an extra wand or two.
And I liked Harry's opening the Snitch "at the close," and the appearance of his parents, Sirius, and Lupin. I wept when Sirius had to assure him that death didn't hurt, and at Lupin's assurance that his son would know that he had died for a reason. But I would have been happier if Harry's final honor guard, as he marched off to his voluntary death at Voldemort's wand, had included Snape. But perhaps it did--perhaps Snape was there, too, but hanging back, watching over Lily's son, unnoticed and unappreciated, just as he had during his life.
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Nicholas Schouten - Jul 22, 2007 11:13 am (#74 of 340)
Great book! What an action ride! However, maybe there should be a book: "Hogwarts: An Epilogue". Hehehe.
-Nick
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wynnleaf - Jul 22, 2007 11:56 am (#75 of 340)
And I liked Harry's opening the Snitch "at the close," and the appearance of his parents, Sirius, and Lupin. I wept when Sirius had to assure him that death didn't hurt, and at Lupin's assurance that his son would know that he had died for a reason. But I would have been happier if Harry's final honor guard, as he marched off to his voluntary death at Voldemort's wand, had included Snape. But perhaps it did--perhaps Snape was there, too, but hanging back, watching over Lily's son, unnoticed and unappreciated, just as he had during his life. (Ann)
Oh, Ann, you made me cry and I don't think I've ever cried from anything on this Forum.
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mysweetdar - Jul 22, 2007 12:03 pm (#76 of 340)
Whew! I loved the book!!! Knew I would...Hedwig and Dobby broke my heart! Ron coming back, and saving Harry, and destroying the horcrux...The silver doe. I'm sure Umbridge got a one-way ticket to Azkaban-ville(tee-hee).Dudley and Harry treating each other like respectful adults, was great...Molly blew me away!!!!I liked when Harry paid Moody his final respects, the best he could. Umbridge using his eye for a peephole!!!Merlin's Pants!!!!!And Dobby..*sob* the way he buried him, and wrote his epitaph*tear*. And the Revolution at Hogwarts--Everybody showed up!!!! and McGonnigal--woo hoo!!!! And Neville--Go Neville!! a true Gryffindor!!The Percy arrival, was perfect! I cried so often...and I laughed--"Merlin's saggy left...." giggle!!!! I read it this first time so quickly--less than twelve hours, and I know I'll pick up more, on re-reads...but i loved it...Thank-you, Jo!!!!
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Kevin Corbett - Jul 22, 2007 12:48 pm (#77 of 340)
I know I've been posting too much, so I hope you might all forgive me. But of all the thoughts I've had so far, this one I find the most interesting:
In this book, we are presented with a challenge to Dumbledore's absolute goodness. As it turns out, Dumbledore really is (no...I mean really is) flawed, and that not all his flaws rose out of what is good and noble, like his loving Harry too much to tell him the truth about his fate, etc. He really was, at one time, a very Percy-esque figure, only with amplified intelligence and skill---indeed, can you imagine someone like Percy (I mean the Percy from before the last chapters of this one, of course) who was also extremely brilliant and powerful, not to mention a supremely skilled legilimens? It was only a dramatic "turn of the screw" in his sister's death, maybe at his own hands, that spared him from that fate, though at a heavy price. So Dumbledore was not always the saintlike figure he eventually became---indeed, that letter, with all its sinister self-justification, is the stuff of some of the most despicable political leaders history has known.
Also, though it is one of those blink-and-you'll-miss-it things, I think that the origin of Gryffindor's sword is quite intriguing in this light---Harry has certainly spared Godric Gryffindor himself little thought over the years, but here it turns out that the man to whom he, in a sense, "belonged to" in belonging to Gryffindor house, was also not this awesome force of untainted goodness, this figure of anti-Slytherin-ness, might not have been above stealing to get something. So it turns out (though it really isn't confirmed that its true or not) that Gryffindor might have been, and probably was, flawed as well.
Then we again have James. His and Sirius's first interview with Snape in the compartment makes its pretty plain who started their rivalry. The only thing Snape can be accused of is making a little noise about wanting to be in Gryffindor and saying Gryffindors were more about brawn than brains. We already new James was flawed, but this makes it a bit worse.
I don't mean to say, though, that these three were, in the end, bad people. I can't say much for Gryffindor, but Dumbledore realized his mistake eventually. James...James seems to me a bit of a self-righteous bully, but I don't doubt he was a good person on the whole. However, I his goodness seems, to me, to be a result of the fact that his parents, though they spoiled him, taught him right from wrong, thought they might have given him a very black and white understanding of the matter that didn't take shades of gray into account as much as they should have. I wonder now if, were a person of James temperament put in a position like that of Harry or Snape, he would have come out so well.
Now, in counterpoint to these examples we have two characters: Snape and Regulus.
Snape had a very bad beginning. It's obvious his upbringing was quite bad. On the one hand, his father "hated everything" and his mother...this entirely a guess, but I think it was from his mother that he got his first inclination toward Slytherin, a house that was only to ready to teach a boy used to friendlessness and cruelty from ever corner that, well, "Magic is Might", essentially. As we now know, it is apparently at least something of a choice which house you go into...I think that, from his apparently favoring intelligence, that had he never heard of Slytherin, he would probably have been sorted into Ravenclaw and his fate might have been quite different for him.
Of course, Snape made a horrible choice by joining the Death Eaters, and he paid for it for the rest of his life by his choice that Dumbledore "never reveal the best" of him. For the remainder of his life, Dumbledore was the only person who, I hope you will excuse my language, gave a damn about him. The rest of the Order distrusted him, only tolerating him on Dumbledore's orders, and the Death Eaters (if their esteem could be valued at aught) distrusted him just as much and only tolerated him because Voldemort made them...and Voldemort basically just made use of him, though this was no different than any of his Death Eaters. He allowed the world to think him the worst, most despicable traitor, to think he had killed his only friend, and he accepted it. I am not trying to defend the way he treated Harry or his general unpleasantness, but especially at the end, he shouldered quite a burden. Severus Snape made one terrible mistake---but was it worse than Dumbledore's? Remember, Dumbledore was planning some truly awful things, and it was only an accident that prevented him going further down that road. But unlike Dumbledore, everyone knew Snape's mistake and most hated him for it. Dumbledore was loved by nearly everyone, but Snape's only friend was Dumbledore. I don't, though mean to set Snape higher that Dumbledore, because the former's crime was probably more serious, but they are very nearly even when you consider that Snape had to pay for his mistake not only in his heart like Dumbledore, but in the public eye as well.
Then there is Regulus. We've all been obsessing over him for so long, and it seems he's almost escaped our notice. Everyone, it seemed, hated Regulus as well, except Kreacher and maybe his mother, though that might have changed if she had known he'd betrayed Voldemort. Sirius's characterization of him as a smarmy, arrogant bastard may well have been apt, but I think he more than made up for it. His death is especially shocking when you consider how he had been raised to think of house-elfs, with their heads all mounted on the wall. Although Mrs. Black may have been kind to Kreacher, I cannot fathom it a kindness that extended beyond him serving her needs and him being an obedient little slave. Given the upbringing he must have had, if he had to get rid of the horcrux, you would think he would have used Kreacher just as Voldemort had---but instead, he essentially sacrifices himself in place of Kreacher, and does not even leave a last vindication of his eventual goodness to Sirius (though Sirius, disgusting as this may sound, might well have thought it far better to use Kreacher in the way I just mentioned) or any word of his fate to his family, just to keep them safe---if they became the enemies of the Dark Lord, they too might be killed, as Hermione said.
I think, maybe, that JKR was here trying to say something about the nature of heroism. I don't mean, she was trying to say something like, All your heroes are big frauds, or something. More that heroes can and do have serious flaws, though this doesn't make them any less heroes. And also, that besides what might be called "usual heroism" there is a kind of hero and a kind of bravery that is all the more remarkable because it rises out of slag and ashes of sin and bad circumstances from which it has no business rising, almost like the phoenix.
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Michael Franz - Jul 22, 2007 1:31 pm (#78 of 340)
Did anyone notice that J.K.'s explanation of what happens when a Secret-Keeper dies on her Web site was completely contradicted by Deathly Hallows? She said that everyone who knew the secret would continue to know it, but no one else would. In the book, however, everyone who knew the secret became a Secret-Keeper, meaning they could all tell others about the secret.
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Flo - Jul 22, 2007 1:44 pm (#79 of 340)
Hello All,
Wow ! What an emotional journey. The book was fantastic, thanks Jo.
I did not really like the epilogue, as it has already been said.
I already have two questions : - how did Regulus manage to refill the basin with the green potion after taking the locket ? Maybe I read too fast, but I do not remember having had an explanation about it
- after reading HBP, I had understood that Dumbledore had damaged his hand while fighting with LV. DH however reveals that the damaging is due to Dumbledore's putting on the ring. Therefore what did Snape refer to in HBP when he said that Dumbledore was getting old and fighting less good as his last encounter with the Dark Lord had shown?
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wynnleaf - Jul 22, 2007 2:07 pm (#80 of 340)
Kevin Corbett
That was an excellent essay. Thanks for posting it. I particularly liked your comments on Regulas. I had sort of forgotten about his part in the book. I need to start reading it again.
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KTO - Jul 22, 2007 2:33 pm (#81 of 340)
I loved the book and am thrilled that others have already admitted they are going to start a re-read immediately, I am joining this group and my husband thinks I am crazy.
Harry walking into the woods to sacrifice himself, similar to Aslan in Narnia. For those who believe that there is no "God" in Harry Potter and that the books are evil all I have to say if you are not able to view this scene as another literary example of the resurrection of Christ (whatever your personal beliefs,for full disclosure my faith is not Christian) go back and read it again.
Not only was Harry 'resurrected" but his sacrifice extended protection to all.
I loved the morals taught throughout the series. Much worse ways to teach your children about good vs. evil then through the Harry Potter books. KT
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Madame Librarian - Jul 22, 2007 2:42 pm (#82 of 340)
Back again after a long absence...
I loved this book! Whoa, what a ride. JKR produced an amazingly complex, fast-paced finalé to the saga. I agree with so many of the comments already made in previous posts.
I was almost physically jolted at certain points (when Hedwig is fatally hit so soon in the story, I had to put the book down and walk around the room a bit).
I was weeping during the whole Dobby thing and even Kreacher's hearfelt reversal toward Harry (and Harry's toward him) moved me a lot.
I had a bad feeling about Lupin as soon as he appears in the book simply because we get such a thin, unsatisfying picture of what's going on with him. It just didn't ring true somehow.
I think JKR is due many kudos for her consummate skill in weaving backstory with heart pounding action as well as close-in relationship scenes. There is a smoothness that keeps the story flowing so well, no slow spots, no draggy stuff.
The latter third of the book still had me guessing (I was as confused as Harry) as to how the story would play out. Yes, many of our Forum predictions unfolded just as we said they would, but there was still a sense of revelation and novelty about the Hallows and their importance vis a vis the horcruxes. It was a brilliant construct by JKR to be introduced at this late stage in the story, yet still give it generous treatment.
I liked all the incidental magic that was used. I felt that the two earlier books lacked a bit of that. Again, I praise JKR for working it seamlessly into the action.
I'm really glad I didn't have to have a blood pressure check during the whole "death" of Harry bit when he gets to talk to his folks, Sirius and Lupin by using the Resurrection Stone. I was so upset, so moved. I was sure that JKR was writing a "Harry Dies" ending and softening the awful blow by having Harry be amongst those who loved him. Again, I had to get up and walk around (I folded laundry for heaven sake!) before I could continue reading. When I realized that, no, it wasn't going to play out that way, I was so relieved, yet hugely satisfied at the brilliant way JKR handled that whole issue.
A few minor complaints, easily ignored considering the whole: Dobby showing up in the nick of time at the Malfoy manor was too much like a "deus ex machina." The Tonks and Lupin thing (mentioned above). The lack of meaty scenes with Snape...thought there would be much more between Snape and Harry especially based on that first chapter. Am still muddled a bit over the Elder Wand ownership thing, but I'm sure someone will succintly explain it and/or when I re-read, it'll be crystal clear.
And, my biggest problem--that epilogue. A tad too treacle-y for me. The "lived happily ever after" bit was overdone. I wasn't terrbily interested in who the kids were named after. We still don't know what Harry, etal do for a living (except good ol' Neville...hooray Neville). And, I guess I was a bit disturbed that there still seemed to be this intense (maybe too strong a word there, but...) dislike between Slytherin and Gryffindor houses at Hogwarts. I was glad to read that Hogwarts as a grand old school survived and thrived, but I had hoped that one of the messages carried through to the end would be the one the Sorting Hat kept harping on--how the houses had to unite. Oh well, maybe JKR was just being realistic there. Still, it was a cheezy epilogue. I agree with whoever said it would have been more satisfying to set the epilogue just one or two years later.
All in all: wonderful book!
Ciao, Barb
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The giant squid - Jul 22, 2007 3:16 pm (#83 of 340)
All of you have described my feelings very well already. Kevin, you've summed things up perfectly. Kudos. The two things I want to comment on are:
Molly Weasley--I nearly cheered out loud when she took on Bella (I would have, but my wife was asleep). It was unexpected that Molly would be the one to take her down, but I always expected there to be a moment where we get so see what Molly's really made of, and having it happen in defense of her little girl made perfect sense.
The locked room--What was the deal there? Did I miss something that explained what was going on there or what? I was sure it would figure into the finale somehow.
Yes, I would have like to see more of Lupin & Tonks' final fight. I guess I feel like Lupin especially deserved to go out "on screen".
--Mike
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Madame Librarian - Jul 22, 2007 3:34 pm (#84 of 340)
After reading through comments (mostly raves) on this thread, it's clear that there are still some muddled spots and unanswered questions. May I suggest that there be such a thread ("Still Unanswered") when the managers get around to organizing everything.
A few of the issues I'd include would be
Who does magic late in life? (I was betting on scene where Filch rises to the occasion to protect his Mrs. Norris or the school building itself.)
What does Harry end up doing for a living? What about the others?
Did Molly throw an AK at Bella or just a really powerful stunner that his over the heart, making a mortal injury?
What's with the veil...we never find out what that's all about?
How does George handle things after Fred is killed? We never hear from him again really.
The Elder Wand sequence of rightful owners is not yet crystal to me.
And so on.
I don't mean this to be a list starter here, but just an example of things we could post to a thread meant to discuss these very issues.
Ciao. Barb
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Geber - Jul 22, 2007 3:39 pm (#85 of 340)
Did anyone find out why Harry inheriting his mother's eyes is important?
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Mare - Jul 22, 2007 3:49 pm (#86 of 340)
Madame Librarian, there is a thread for unanswered questions here: Kip Carter, "Questions Not Answered" #, 21 Jul 2007 6:41 am
That folder is quite at the bottom of our forums, so it's somewhat harder to locate.
We could do with a mistakes in DH thread too, there seem to be some inconsistencies.
I wonder if there will ever be a completely edited version of all seven books. Could I dream of an unabridged one?
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wynnleaf - Jul 22, 2007 4:29 pm (#87 of 340)
Did anyone find out why Harry inheriting his mother's eyes is important?
As far as I could tell, the primary importance was because Snape loved Lily and saw her eyes in Harry. And that DD used that once to try to manipulate Snape a bit. And maybe at the end, Snape told Harry to look at him because he wanted to see her eyes.
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Solitaire - Jul 22, 2007 4:32 pm (#88 of 340)
Wowie-wow! What an emotional rollercoaster. I posted just that much on the chat thread, and I've seen others use the same comparison here on this thread ... but it is so appropriate. It was a rollercoaster ... and a fast and emotional one, too. I knew when Hedwig and Mad-Eye got it, right out of the gate, that it would be a rough ride. I choked when Mrs. Weasley told Harry to take her up and put her with Pigwidgeon. I cried so hard for Dobby and Fred that I had to close the book and get up and do something else for a while, because my head was hurting so badly. Like others, I felt that seeing Tonks and Remus dead--without seeing the battle--lacked something.
I loved Hermione's purse ... I want one! I loved that Ron saved Harry's life and destroyed a Horcrux ... and one that was horrible for him. I think it finally made him feel like what he truly was but hadn't realized it--an indispensable part of the team.
I've always loved Neville, but he was truly shining in this book. I wonder if he even has a boggart anymore. I hope Gran Longbottom finally accords her grandson the respect he deserves. Funny ... I was hoping we'd see Trevor.
Wasn't Luna an absolute gem! I was reminded of someone's suggestion that she would help Harry uncover the Ravenclaw artifact by saying something like "I hear Rowena Ravenclaw was extremely fond of tiaras." That remark was not too far amiss, because it was her talk of the diadem that helped them figure it out, I think.
I truly loved watching Kreacher's character unfold. By acknowledging Kreacher's love for Regulus and rewarding his service with the fake locket--which had meaning to Kreacher--Harry earned his loyalty. I wonder ... did he keep Kreacher, leave him at Hogwarts, or set him free? Given his inscription on Dobby's gravestone, I am hoping the latter.
Weren't Crabbe and Goyle a couple of pills in the RoR? And I wanted to slap Pansy Parkinson's face when she gave Harry away in the Great Hall. Anyone else care to join me?
I forgave Narcissa all her nastiness when she didn't give Harry away. I liked seeing the Malfoys standing together at the end celebration, unsure, kind of disoriented. It was a nice change from their usual arrogance.
Again, like others, I did not see who did that "emergency magic." I also want to know what happened to Florean Fortescue and who the mysterious Hogwarts spouse was. I'll think of more, I'm sure, in the coming days and hours. I must say, I loved this book just as much as the first one (my previous favorite) ... maybe even more.
Kevin, I like your comment about the nature of our flawed heroes. After all, aren't most real heroes just regular people ... who somehow manage to find extraordinary courage when they need it most? Looking back at Harry's heroes--Lily, James, Sirius, Remus, Dumbledore, and, finally, Snape (it took him long enough to get there)--all but Lily had some serious character flaws. Still, when they needed to step up to the plate ... they all did. When Harry needed their strength and encouragement, they gave it.
Thanks, Jo, for a great, great ride! I loved every minute of it.
Solitaire
PS Neville is my new hero!
PS #2 Didn't you just love the blue eye in the mirror?
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rassannassar - Jul 22, 2007 6:15 pm (#89 of 340)
I can't remember what chapter it was in, but when you read it so fast they all kind of blend together. Anyway, at the end of the wedding, when Kingsley's Patronus warns them of the imminent danger, it just kind of made things real for me. I felt like I was one of the guests at the wedding, and when I read what Kingsley said, I kind of just paused, in shock and disbelief, and then realized, "Oh my God, this is it. What are we going to do?" I know that that was going to happen no matter what, but it still just seemed so amazing that I could feel so affected by that one particular point in the book.
As far as the Diadem being in the Room of Requirement-- It should have been obvious that there would have been a Horcrux hidden in a room where everything is hidden.
All in all, I thought it was an amazing book, Particularly the fact that Harry never killed anyone. He never stooped so low as to murder anyone, not even in self-defense.
And, like a lot of others said, I didn't completely like the Epilogue, and it kind of reminded me that the first two books weren't as well written (in my opinion), but I like that it left things open for the reader to think what he or she would like. Especially the ending, "All is well." Not "All was well."
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EbonyRebel - Jul 22, 2007 6:26 pm (#90 of 340)
Without doubt my favourite book of the series. I'm delighted to be able to say it, because I expected to be too traumatised by all the deaths to hold more than a passing regard for 7. Happy ending notwithstanding, it was certainly a highly emotional journey - I had to stop reading more times than I could count, and take out my emotions on my poor piano!
I am devastated about Snape. He is, without doubt, the loneliest character I have ever encountered, and that he never got the redemption he so desperately deserved just breaks my heart.
As for the epilogue, I must be one of the few people who enjoyed it! I warmed to the children immediately - cheeky little gits! The only thing I missed was mention of George - I really wanted to know that he managed to cope without Fred.
I can't wait for the encyclopedia of Potter to come out.....
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Overview for Those Who Have Finished the Book (Continued)
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Mrs Brisbee - Jul 22, 2007 6:54 pm (#91 of 340)
"We've been betrayed...."
So says Lupin near the beginning of the book. Near the end, we learn just who the betrayer was.
There was a lot to like in this book, as many people have listed. But I'm having a hard time getting the deconstruction and refitting of Dumbledore to make sense. I liked the human and flawed Dumbledore we got to see in OotP and HBP, but here in DH Rowling needed him to do certain things to make her plot work, and to do that she did more than hit him a few times with a Stupidity Stick: He seems to have climbed to the top of the Stupidity Tree, fallen off, and hit every single branch on the way down.
First Dumbledore makes the mistake of putting the ring on, and the thus the blackened hand. Given the background Rowling gave us on Dumbledore in DH-- which was excellent-- I'll buy that. So he will die in a year, and he wants Snape to murder him. Er, why? He's going to die, right? So why make Snape murder him? Just why is it that Snape is required to pay with his soul for Dumbledore's stupidity? I can't believe that Dumbledore couldn't come up with a better plan than to demoralize the entire wizarding world.
Dumbledore knew he had a year to get his affairs in order. I was hoping to see that he trusted certain members of the Order with information, as a backup. But, no.
Dumbledore tells Snape he can't tell him anything because of the dangerous position he occupies, then proceeds to tell Snape the biggest secret of them all. Because Harry obviously will listen to Snape when he goes looking for him . Wouldn't someone who Harry trusted and would listen to have made more sense? Someone who had a better chance of finding Harry? Certainly Dumbledore could have chosen to build trust between his Order members. But, no. Because Dumbledore founded the Order of the Phoenix, it is painful to see how little he trusted the people in his organization at the end.
And in the end, Dumbledore betrays the Order-- after a fashion: His soul has departed weeks earlier, so it is his portrait that does the actual betraying. But the portrait is an imprint of Dumbledore, and it is astounding that he imbued it with such remarkable arrogance! In HBP, Dumbledore informs Harry that he suspected the diary was a Horcrux because it began to think and act for itself, more than a mere memory. But portraits don't have souls, or even fragments of souls, and here's this one dictating his plans, passing death sentences on to his Order members, not trusting them, risking the lives of all three of his Horcrux hunters. Why? Because Snape has lost his position in the Order after murdering Dumbledore, but since Snape is for some reason supposed to be well informed anyway, the Order and the Horcrux hunters need to be sacrificed to protect Snape. So, Mad-Eye Moody is killed, a few people are maimed or injured, the wizarding households who are acting as safehouses have their whereabouts revealed, and all is well with the world. That a soulless entity should be granted the license to play with the living like pawns in a game is mindboggling.
The Order became nothing more to Dumbledore than a sacrificial lamb, and he had no confidence in his organization or it's members. His legacy seems to have persevered despite him, not because of him.
Personally, when Albus in his lifetime dropped into the Hog's Head for a drink, I think Aberforth should have taken the opportunity to hit his brother a couple of more times on the nose. The first time doesn't seem to have done the trick.
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Solitaire - Jul 22, 2007 8:41 pm (#92 of 340)
I am devastated about Snape. He is, without doubt, the loneliest character I have ever encountered, and that he never got the redemption he so desperately deserved just breaks my heart.
You are right ... it is sad that it took his death for Harry (and others) to see that he was capable of love. Snape is a perfect picture of how one's choices shape his life. He could have been so much more to the son of the woman he had always loved, but his early choices placed him in a position which rendered that impossible. When he chose to join Voldemort ... when he chose to share the prophecy ... he set in motion a chain of events which would bind him in so many ways. Even if he'd wanted to be a mentor and friend to Harry--and Harry had held no prejudices against Snape when he first arrived, so he might have welcomed the friendship of one who knew and truly valued Lily--the role in which his previous choices had eventually placed him would have probably made such a friendship suspicious to those like Lucius and other DEs.
Snape missed out on being a friend and mentor to Harry and settled instead for being his assumed tormentor and adversary. Because of his own earlier choices and actions, he would never live to see Harry acknowledge his love for Lily and vindicate him before the Wizarding World. Yes ... it is sad.
Solitaire
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Nicholas Schouten - Jul 22, 2007 8:58 pm (#93 of 340)
I'm posting here again what I have posted in the first chapter thread as this actually regards the dedication of the book:
Did anyone notice that the dedication begins with "The" and ends with "End". Too much fun for the last book! Way to go Jo!
-Nick
THE END
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geauxtigers - Jul 22, 2007 9:14 pm (#94 of 340)
I juat finished it, and I have to get this off my chest before reading everything completely! It was definatily a roller coaster ride, 100% absolutly.
Good:
Neville killing Nagini! YEAH!
Molly! Molly! OMG Molly! I was shocked! That was great! Makes up for it not being Neville to finish Bella!
I loved Harry's chat with Dumbledore in heaven/King's Cross place. It was really well written.
Oh course, I loved Voldemort's downfall! That was just like so perfect! Harry didn't kill him in a sense, Voldemort killed himself! That nasty rebounding AK! Harry's 'chat' with him before was absolutely brillant!
I can't think of much else, my mind is swimming with so many thoughts!
BAD:
I'd have liked more to the epilogue. I wanted to find out more about everyone else. George, how is he, I can't believe she killed one of them. She'd have done better to do both, being a twin, that was really hard. I just can't even imagine. There are no words...
Hermione, what she did to her parents, that was just wierd. I thought the book started out really rocky overall and I didn't really like it. I almost couldn't read, I kept having to stop, it was frustrating me. It did pick up, but it seemed like there was an awful lot of sitting around and not doing anything, granted we got a lot of info. Dobby's death was horrible! I didn't cry when it happened, but when we got to the funeral part I was sobbing! And of course, Harry 'dying" I started bawling the second my worst fear was confirmed: Harry was a horcrux. I didn't stop until about halfway through the Heaven scene. THen when I realized he was alive, I was like JKR!!!!!!! I just spent the last 20 minutes sobbing and it was for nothing!
So thats the highlights, I'm off to search for threads where I can get into more specifics! Overall, I thought it was absolutly brilliant! I had several "I knew IT!!! I was RIGHT!!!!" Moments, but far more *gasps* and sharp intakes of breathe and several light bulbs going on, and several scenes where I was just plain mad at what she did!
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virginiaelizabeth - Jul 22, 2007 9:15 pm (#95 of 340)
I really liked the book! Definately a roller coaster!
I had a very different feel than any of the others because the Trio were overaged and able to apparate and stuff. It was weird to have such huge chunks of it were it was just the 3 of them, with no other friends or teachers or adults.
Anyone have any idea what scene Marry Grand-Pre painted for the cover? There was never an instance where the 2 of them did any kind of wandless magic or something similar to how they are on the cover.
About the only theory I had right was R.A.B. I had a feeling that it was Regulus and that it somehow involved Kreacher being fed the potion in the cave, so I was sorta right, though I did flip flop between several versions of this over the past year, but I had the essentials right.
I also was pretty sure that the final battle would take place at Hogwarts.
And just to get it overwith for those of you who thought Harry, was a horcrux and had to put up with me constantly attempting to shoot you down that he wasn't one: I admit it! You were right, I was wrong!
Other than that,all of my other theories were completely wayy off the mark!
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Madame Pomfrey - Jul 22, 2007 10:14 pm (#96 of 340)
Virginia,I think the cover is of Harry catching the elder wand.
I was wrong about Snape,sobbingly so.However,I had my doubts about him being evil when he lied at the Malfoy Manor about when Harry would leave the Dursleys.I knew for certain when I saw the silver doe,I knew it had to be Lily's and it (his patronus)would have definitely gave something away had JKR told us sooner. I was right about him loving Lily though.
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Kevin Corbett - Jul 22, 2007 11:30 pm (#97 of 340)
Mrs. Brisby, I must say that your comments bewilder me.
"And in the end, Dumbledore betrays the Order-- after a fashion: His soul has departed weeks earlier, so it is his portrait that does the actual betraying. But the portrait is an imprint of Dumbledore, and it is astounding that he imbued it with such remarkable arrogance! In HBP, Dumbledore informs Harry that he suspected the diary was a Horcrux because it began to think and act for itself, more than a mere memory. But portraits don't have souls, or even fragments of souls, and here's this one dictating his plans, passing death sentences on to his Order members, not trusting them, risking the lives of all three of his Horcrux hunters. Why? Because Snape has lost his position in the Order after murdering Dumbledore, but since Snape is for some reason supposed to be well informed anyway, the Order and the Horcrux hunters need to be sacrificed to protect Snape. So, Mad-Eye Moody is killed, a few people are maimed or injured, the wizarding households who are acting as safehouses have their whereabouts revealed, and all is well with the world. That a soulless entity should be granted the license to play with the living like pawns in a game is mindboggling."
Are you saying here that this plan was impossible to begin with? The lives of the horcrux hunters were going to be threatened no matter what---this way, Snape could at least control a degree of what happened, which otherwise he would have had none of. It was only because he hadn't counted on Mundungus being such a total coward---otherwise, I think the plan would have gone off without a hitch. Note that the plan managed to keep Voldemort away from Harry long enough for him to make it to the safehouse. Furthermore, no one gave the portrait license to do anything---Snape could have easily hid it in a closet and ignored it if he wanted to. The portraits of the old headmasters are there to serve the present headmaster, and Dumbledore's portrait did just that.
"Dumbledore tells Snape he can't tell him anything because of the dangerous position he occupies, then proceeds to tell Snape the biggest secret of them all. Because Harry obviously will listen to Snape when he goes looking for him . Wouldn't someone who Harry trusted and would listen to have made more sense? Someone who had a better chance of finding Harry? Certainly Dumbledore could have chosen to build trust between his Order members. But, no. Because Dumbledore founded the Order of the Phoenix, it is painful to see how little he trusted the people in his organization at the end."
Are you suggesting then that Dumbledore should have let someone else in on the secret of Snape's loyalty? Snape position as a double agent cannot be underestimated---Neville and Ginny, I think, would not have survived the year without his protection, and note that Luna was only taken when she was on the train home and out of his reach. Keep in mind as well that the members of the Order had never really trusted Snape to begin with, and the only way to make them completely do so would be to reveal Snape's love for Lily and his role in her death, which would have been impossible. Then there is the fact that even if he hadn't died, Snape would have probably conveyed his message through the Pensieve, which is really the only way Harry would have ever believed it. After Dumbledore's death, the truth of his death lay nowhere but in the mind of Severus Snape---I can think of no other way that would not have seemed an obvious trap. I can scarcely think Harry would have supposed such an intelligence, the brunt of which was "Thou must die", coming from a Lupin or Kingsly to be anything but a Polyjuiced Death Eater.
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Mrs Brisbee - Jul 23, 2007 3:27 am (#98 of 340)
Are you saying here that this plan was impossible to begin with? The lives of the horcrux hunters were going to be threatened no matter what---this way, Snape could at least control a degree of what happened, which otherwise he would have had none of.-- Kevin Corbett
Yaxley's information put the date of Harry's leaving the Dursleys on the 30th, but that was a decoy. Snape gave Voldemort the correct date. So, without Snape's information, a huge party of Death Eaters wouldn't have been there ready to ambush. So I am saying that, yes, it was a totally pointless betrayal that needlessly put lots of lives in danger, including Harry, Ron, and Hermione. I'm not sure what you mean by Snape having control of the situation. There were thirty Death Eaters there, plus Voldemort, chasing seven groups of two. What control?
Furthermore, no one gave the portrait license to do anything---Snape could have easily hid it in a closet and ignored it if he wanted to. The portraits of the old headmasters are there to serve the present headmaster, and Dumbledore's portrait did just that.
No, Snape didn't have to listen to the portrait (I think he must have been whacked with the Stupidity Stick a few times, too). What the portrait shows us is how arrogant the actual Dumbledore had been in life, because the portrait seems to think that it can plan and dictate and play with people's lives much more effectively than the people still living who have to deal with the consequences. And we know it can't, because a portrait is only an imprint without a soul. That's the only thing that prevents me laying the murder of Moody at Dumbledore's door (because it isn't the actual Dumbledore with his soul along who is doing the plotting). But Dumbledore's death certainly imprinted his portrait with a deep level of hypocrisy and arrogance, because the portrait still seemed to believe in its right to make these sort of plans.
Snape was not Headmaster. The conversation took place between Dumbledore's death and Harry leaving the Dursleys. The Ministry had not yet fallen. The portrait had no such obligation to "help" Snape. And Snape should have ignored its advice, and thought for himself.
Are you suggesting then that Dumbledore should have let someone else in on the secret of Snape's loyalty? Snape position as a double agent cannot be underestimated---Neville and Ginny, I think, would not have survived the year without his protection, and note that Luna was only taken when she was on the train home and out of his reach.
I had not suggested that, because I was talking about something else altogether, but now you mention it, yes, the living Dumbledore would have been better to have heeded his own advice about building trust and harmony to defeat Voldemort. All Dumbledore's advice to others turned out to be empty platitudes. It seems he set Snape up to be the lone misunderstood hero by seeding suspicion and mistrust, and setting the people working for the same thing against each other.
Keep in mind as well that the members of the Order had never really trusted Snape to begin with, and the only way to make them completely do so would be to reveal Snape's love for Lily and his role in her death, which would have been impossible.
I hadn't given this any thought, but why would it be impossible? Looking at the stakes, and all the horrible things Dumbledore was willing to do to achieve his ends, what was stopping Dumbledore from telling Snape: "Forget your right to privacy for a moment, Severus, the entire wizarding world is at stake and I'm going to die. At least one other person needs to be let in on the truth and know you are trustworthy." But of course the big problem here is that Dumbledore didn't trust anybody else.
Then there is the fact that even if he hadn't died, Snape would have probably conveyed his message through the Pensieve, which is really the only way Harry would have ever believed it. After Dumbledore's death, the truth of his death lay nowhere but in the mind of Severus Snape---I can think of no other way that would not have seemed an obvious trap. I can scarcely think Harry would have supposed such an intelligence, the brunt of which was "Thou must die", coming from a Lupin or Kingsly to be anything but a Polyjuiced Death Eater.
Would it be likely that Snape would have the opportunity to chat with Harry, and that Harry would listen? The truth about him being a Horcrux would have been better coming from an ally, someone who is more likely to encounter Harry, someone who Harry would listen to, someone who Harry could question. If Dumbledore had wanted to set that up, he could have just as easily given someone Harry trusted a memory to pour in the pensieve.
Dumbledore himself helped bring about the chaos of the wizarding world and the fall of Hogwarts. He allowed Draco to terrorize the school in HBP, to the point it was likened to the time the Chamber of Secrets was opened. He knew his death was coming, so he plotted to have his DADA professor murder him, thus demoralizing the wizarding world, sowing treachery, mistrust, discord, and lies: The very things he said make Voldemort stronger.
The betrayal of the Order by the portrait and Snape is just more of the same. The Order knew they had been betrayed. They just weren't sure by whom.
Before Deathly Hallows came out, there was speculation that there would be another betrayer, and I saw predictions as far-fetched as Lupin or Neville as the betrayer, things which I was sure would never come to pass. Never did I imagine that the betrayer would end up being Albus Dumbledore. More than anything, he betrayed them through his arrogance and hypocrisy.
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Loopy Lupin - Jul 23, 2007 5:18 am (#99 of 340)
I'm still quite blown away and haven't really had time to put all thoughts together, but here's some random observations:
As has been pointed out, Draco was the master of the Elder Wand, having disarmed DD in HBP. I don't think all the previous times of wands being taken ultimately matter that much at least insofar as they were usually taken back. Even so, it's not like a wand won't "work" for someone other than its "master." It just won't work as well.
Previously, I theorized at length that Petunia would show magic late in life and JKR shot that down in an interview. Maybe Filch was supposed to do a spell or something, but it got cut out of the final edit. In any event, like Denise, I wonder what I missed on that issue.
Neville killing Bellatrix would've been more satisfying, but you can't have everything I suppose.
Why Draco was the master of the Elder wand wasn't completely clear to me until Catherine explained it. I'm still not exactly clear why taking Draco's wand at Malfoy Manor made any difference later on to the Elder Wand though.
I don't have a problem with Harry giving a kid "Severus" as a middle name. Albus Severus would've been born 8 years after the Battle of Hogwarts. That's a good chunk of time for Harry to process through Snape's behavior towards him vs. the discovery that Snape had been risking his life to act as DD's spy all along. On a different note, I wonder if James' middle name is "Dobby."
Speaking of the Epilogue, it feels "tacked on" because it was "tacked on" although given that it was written first you might say that DH was tacked on to the front of the Epilogue. Still, I wanted to know that everyone was doing ok in the future and the Epilogue served that purpose well enough.
Was it just me, or were there times when you wondered why they wouldn't just apparate away from some of the stickier spots? True, there were times when they did, but there were other times when I wondered why they were sticking around.
I was a little ambivalent about Percy coming back after all this time. If a Weasley had to go, why not him instead of Fred?
McGonnagal Rules!!!
JKR said in a statement last week that soon, we would know "EVERYTHING." She didn't really think we wouldn't think of questions did she?
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septentrion - Jul 23, 2007 5:20 am (#100 of 340)
I think I have a theory of why there wasn't a portrait of Severus Snape in the headmaster's office: he wasn't headmaster anymore when he died, he has been "sacked". I don't think the wording of the chapter title, the sacking of Severus Snape, is totally innocent. Of course, I don't know if you have to be headmaster(mistress) at the time of your death to have your portrait in the office, it's just a theory.
Deb Zawacki - Jul 23, 2007 5:24 am (#101 of 340)
I was so excited by this book. I don't think we could have asked for a better conclusion.
There was one thing that I HOPED would happen that didn't, though. I thought that maybe HArry and Petunia would have conversation and reconcilliation of some sort. That Dudley thanked him was moving, but I was hoping for Petunia to give him something, or see Lily's eyes in Harry was going to be part of the story.
Also, the epilogue was touching but I really wanted to hear more about the careers of the main characters and the rest of the Weaselys, where they all lived and whether "the three" stayed another year at Hogwarts to finish up. I would love to know more about McGonnagal and the characters we came to love. And none of the children was named Freddy......
OK, maybe in book 8......
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Mare - Jul 23, 2007 5:37 am (#102 of 340)
I truly loved watching Kreacher's character unfold. By acknowledging Kreacher's love for Regulus and rewarding his service with the fake locket--which had meaning to Kreacher--Harry earned his loyalty. I wonder ... did he keep Kreacher, leave him at Hogwarts, or set him free? Given his inscription on Dobby's gravestone, I am hoping the latter.
I'm not sure if Kreacher, having been so lonely for such a long time wouldn't much rather stay and serve Harry. Of course Harry could do the right thing and give him a choice, but I think Kreacher, like Winky, would like nothing better than to serve and have the company of a good master and his family.
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Solitaire - Jul 23, 2007 6:22 am (#103 of 340)
Mare, I am hoping Harry does set Kreacher free ... and Kreacher returns to serve him out of love and respect. After all, look at where Kreacher places Harry in his war cry as he leads the House Elves out of the kitchens:
Fight! Fight! Fight for my Master, defender of House-elves! Fight the Dark Lord in the name of brave Regulus! Fight!
He has acknowledged Harry as his Master and of his own free will. I believe that Kreacher will choose to stay with Harry. Interesting, isn't it, how a little respect and consideration can turn a sad, horrible life around?
Solitaire
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Mare - Jul 23, 2007 6:30 am (#104 of 340)
You know I hadn't even thought of how "master" could mean Harry, I just thought he ment Regulus all the time. Of course, Harry makes more sense.
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Amelie Ferrer - Jul 23, 2007 6:35 am (#105 of 340)
I absolutely loved this book and enjoyed reading it from start to finish - all the while never wanting it to end.
I think the reason that Dumbledore appeared so flippant when talking to Snape about Harry imminant death is because Dumbledore knew from the moment Voldemort took Harry blood to regenerate his body that Harry was not destined to die. Remember the "gleam of truimph" in Dumbledore's eyes after hearing this news from Harry in Goblet of fire. I believe he knew from that moment that that the shared blood would tether Harry to life regardless of being hit by a killing curse.
However i think that dumbledore knew that it was of utmost importance that Harry beleived he was walking into his death - Harry must believe that in order to open the Snitch. He had to walk willing into death so that Voldeort could kill the small part of his own soul trapped inside Harry. Harry would then be tethered to earth by their shared blood leaving Harry able to return complete with a sacrifice protection for Harry's friends.
I think Dumbledore chose not to tell Snape that Harry would not die so that Snape would not be tempted to tell Harry the truth.
All round a pretty perfect plan
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M A Grimmett - Jul 23, 2007 6:42 am (#106 of 340)
Edited Jul 23, 2007 8:21 am
First, I ADORED that Remus and Tonks made Harry the godfather of little Teddy. That was a real full-circle moment.
I loved how Dumbledore was given a backstory; again he showed his wisdom by knowing that power was bad for him and avoiding it when possible.
The Harry as Horcrux thing made sense, but still seemed a bit contrived. After all, if LV couldn't touch him, couldn't possess him, how was it that the soul bit was able to hang in there for so long and actively connect the two?
I enjoyed Peeves' "moldy Voldy" song.
Didn't care for the epilogue as much as I thought I would. I wanted to see how George was doing without Fred, whether Weasley's Wizarding Wheezes was going strong and who was helping George, where everybody worked, how Mr and Mrs Weasley were getting on, who was Head at Hogwarts....
Loved the Patronuses (Patroni?), especially Kingsley's lynx and Mr Weasley's weasel. Also Snape's doe. Geeze, Snape, carry a torch much? I enjoyed seeing Petunia before she got too bitter.
I enjoyed the Snape's Memory Montage. Makes you wonder what would have happened if Harry hadn't had his mother's eyes.
I was glad that Dudley was a man at last, and better than his parents. If Duddykins has magical kids, at least he has a resource.
Hedwig! I felt so bad for her, although it would have been hard to keep her happy during the months of concealment.
I also found the honor guard of Harry's dead when he went to confront LV very moving and a perfect touch.
And seriously, GO NEVILLE! I was so pleased that he came out not only ok, but a serious leader, a hero for cutting off Nagini's head, AND Herbology teacher!! Whoo hoo!
MacGonagal rocks!!! What I liked about Harry coming to her defense is that when he was looking at the sword in the pool, he remembered the Sorting Hat and connected the daring and nerve part--this was definitely the chivalry that sets Gryphendors apart!
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septentrion - Jul 23, 2007 6:49 am (#107 of 340)
Amelie Ferrer, thank you for making clearer, at least for me, all that theory about blood and soul. It was hard however not to have told Severus. He might not like Harry at all, but sending Lily's son to death knowingly, "for the greater good" must have been very hard for him.
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Esther Rose - Jul 23, 2007 7:05 am (#108 of 340)
I am sure there is a million and one flaws we could find but I don't care. Right now I loved it.
I do want to know what happened to George, Dean, Luna, and some of the other minor characters.
I also noticed that while JKR closed Harry's story. She definitely left the Wizarding World wide open for more stories should she choose to write them. My only request is to make sure Harry does not have to fight in any more wars.
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gankomon - Jul 23, 2007 8:21 am (#109 of 340)
well!
I completed the book the day it arrived (1:45PM) where I live. Took me the better part of three hours, and my first thought is that that was quite a ride. As other posters have already mentioned, it was quite a roller-coaster ride, and the darkness, while expected, started much earlier than I had anticipated. When the Ministry fell, I knew that this was not going to be an easy book for Harry, and his earlier loss of both Hedwig and his Firebolt intimated that his childhood was over.
My favorite parts were the reconciliation with Kreacher, the Return of Ron, the final battle (especially Molly's ferocious victory over Bellatrix- remember how Bella's smile faded as she realized that she was up against someone she could not intimidate? I also loved Neville's assumption of leadership in Harry's stead, McGonagal's leadership, and the scene of trelawney throwing crytsal balls.
Least favorite parts were the role of Lupin- I had hoped for so much more from the man who seemd to have conquered his own demons. And his death, with Tonks, was so sad- it seems that one of them should have surivived for little 'Teddy'. I suspect that Tonks and Fred were the two characters who died that Ms. Rowling didn't plan to kill- I think Lupin himself was never intended to survive. I was immensely saddened by Dobby's death, though i can see how important it was to the plot- without it, Griphook might not have helped them break into Gringotts.
The Hallows. Hmmm. I found that entire storyline a littlle too pat, though I enjoyed the mythical references it evoked. And I espercially enjoyed the idea that Voldemort's use of Harry's blood to regenerate meant that harry had kind of an anti-Horcrux. The idea that Harry himself was a Horcrux I didn't belive based on the idea that no one was killed that night. I was wrong, and kudos to those who correctly figured it out- I love the entire explanation of that. And the scene where Harry goes to meet his death (as he thinks) is one of the most touching in the entire series. Someone suggested that Snape was there too, hovering in the background. While that is not canon, I would like to think so. Which brings us to...
Severus Snape. The classical tragic anti-hero, for he is as important to the final victory as anyone and more so than anyone expect Harry himself. I was glad that harry finally moved past his hatred for Snape at the very end, but it wouldd have been nice for them to reconcile during Snape's life. If only Snape could have moved past Harry' appearance when first they met, thihngs could have been different....But I loved the Prince's tale, and it finally explained so much about Snape. I do wonder- what was his boggart?
I expect I shall have more thoughts later, but I must return and re-read the book before I can further comment.
Regards,
gankomon
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Nymphadora - Jul 23, 2007 8:24 am (#110 of 340)
Mrs Brisbee,
What a horrible picture you paint of Dumbledore!! Yes, he manipulated, and yes, he did not trust, but didn't he explain to Severus that he couldn't put all his secrets in one basket? He revealed information on a need-to-know basis because he had learnt early to do so, and because they are in a war. You cannot have everyone know everything or they'll give lots away with, eg., a few drops of Ministry's beloved Veritaserum, or a bit of Crucio. Furthermore, how would the Trio be able to search for the Horcruxes on their own, if everyone was used to know everything about the others? I think that Dumbledore had fully foreseen the situation with both the Ministry and Hogwarts in DE hands (although Umbridge didn't need DE's to make Muggleborns' life a misery), and knew that he had to break the Order into small task forces that would operate independently unless a big project needed to be carried out (Harry's Transport, the Battle at Hogwarts). At all other times, secrecy and stealth were paramount, and you can see the Order did not suffer for it, as most lived until the Battle. How to make them do it though, without angering them or pushing the people closer together? The Order had to FEEL betrayed so they would be pressed to operate in concealment, stealth and CONSTANT VIGILANCE!
About Harry's "betrayal" - first of all, Harry is the Hero and needs to realise and accept his role and his ultimate fate. In fantasy, heroes are customarily left in the dark about important things that they need to discover on their own and accept in time, and they're invariably faced off with their fate at a crucial point. I think that the vessel (Snape) and the incontrovertible truth of the medium (memories) managed to persuade Harry and the readers that Harry must die and that Snape never wanted his harm; the emotional showdown starts there, big time.
About Dumbledore's own intents and purposes - Dumbledore knew that Snape had to let Harry know that Dumbledore had wanted him to die (oof... metacognition in this book is mindboggling!), because Snape will be able to redeem himself by demonstrating that Harry need not like what he has to do as he, Snape, didn't. Dumbledore DOES want Snape to be revealed and honoured for what he actually is. Meanwhile though, Snape must continue to accept and perform the undesirable tasks Dumbledore has heaped on him, and keep the mask on, so the spying can continue. Snape accepted this position when he promised Dumbledore he would do "anything for him". Making Snape kill Dumbledore meant that Snape would be in the position to protect innocents without being faced with DE's mistrust anymore. And dear old Severus confirms this by exclaiming that, were it not for him, the Carrows would have tortured and maybe killed every single Hogwarts pupil (he says this just before his sacking, sorry I don't have the exact page/quote). As for Severus' own soul... well, he tainted it himself, he probably has killed people, surely he watched too many die during the first war without intervening, spied and relayed the Prophecy to Voldemort... until Lily was threatened. And then he only wanted to save her at first, let James and Harry be killed, until Dumbledore reacted strongly. Snape has atoned for most of his crimes, but since his soul is already tainted, Dumbledore preferred to sacrifice that instead of Draco's still innocent one.
I'm in awe of JKR's plot-twisting abilities, really. Hermione is the information vessel, but Dumbledore serves a much higher purpose as he is a formidable psychoanalyst and motivates his Army exactly as he has to. Do not think that leaders have it easy, though. It did have an impact on Dumbledore, and his bravery lies in that he knew no one else could shoulder all this. Being brilliant has a terrible price at times, and he did sacrifice a lot.
Finally, I'm really glad that JKR showed us what Dumbledore was, and explained that a leader always has to make hard choices and make use of people, without divulging his own counsel to all and sundry. I believe that children should understand all these issues raised by DH as they do translate to the real world - I for one would have been better off if I even suspected all this ten years ago. It remains an acquired wisdom, but it helps a lot if you have parallels in your literary heroes.
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Holly T. - Jul 23, 2007 8:29 am (#111 of 340)
I figured Lupin and Tonks would die, but didn't expect that they'd have a baby first. While Teddy is growing up without parents, like Harry, he has a grandmother (Andromeda) who loves him, a godfather and his family who love him and care for him (not to mention a godfather who isn't in Azkaban), all of which give him the family and love that Harry didn't have growing up. Of course it is still sad that he lost his parents, but they died fighting in a war. I hope that he is proud of them.
I think Hagrid is the character who got the reprieve. I've been expecting him to die since book 5. I'm glad he didn't! I sure thought he was a goner there at the beginning. I think he got the reprieve so he could carry Harry at the end when Harry is "dead," toward the final battle with Voldemort, much like he carried Harry when he was a baby away from the battle with Voldemort.
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Madame Librarian - Jul 23, 2007 8:31 am (#112 of 340)
About that Neville...wow!
Don't you think that if for some reason, Voldemort had "chosen" him instead of Harry as The One, and Neville had survived an AK like Harry did, that Neville, too, would have done as much as Harry did to prevail over Evil? I think JKR was giving us a little hint of that by allowing Neville the important role as the slayer of Nagini.
Also, maybe Neville originally was intended to be the later-in-life magic character, but it just wouldn't have worked out to have him show his skill too late. In OoP Dumbledore's Army was the best place to have him "get" the magic.
(I know these things really need to in separate threads now, but it's hard to give up looking at the big picture, big impact this 7th book has had. The dust, as it were, has not settled enough yet.)
Ciao. Barb
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Denise P. - Jul 23, 2007 8:35 am (#113 of 340)
Regarding Loopy Lupin asking why the trio didn't apparate out of some hairy spots. If you recall, early in the book the reason that there were 7 Potters was because apparation and the Floo network were being monitered. If the trio had apparated, they would have been captured. Of course, I could be wrong and it just could be because they are new to apparation still that they didn't think to do it.
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wynnleaf - Jul 23, 2007 8:58 am (#114 of 340)
I started DH with a lot of trepidation, completely unsure whether I'd like any of it or not. Most of it was an excellent read and I was very pleased with that aspect.
One thing that I emphasized a lot in predictions was that someone would betray either the Order or Harry's trust. Someone would intentionally or inadvertently betray the Order. Someone to whom Harry had given trust would turn out to be quite different from what Harry thought.
What amazed me is who those characters were. Mundungus fills the technical role of inadvertently betraying the Order when Snape was able to use him to set the date and manner of Harry's Privet Dr. departure, thereby giving those details to Voldemort.
But that it was Dumbledore who would be the one Harry trusted, who was not at all as he seemed, was quite a surprise to me.
Mrs Brisbee, I found your remarks to be very interesting. There's a lot that I agree with in your posts. Dumbledore was definitely a very controlling person. He was not only manipulative, but was determined to retain control of everything as much as possible.
Regarding the portrait... I think that JKR intended, in spite of any past remarks about the nature of portraits, for Dumbledore's portrait to embody his thoughts and intents just like the real Dumbledore. Snape certainly appeared to be taking orders from the portrait just as though it was the real person. I don't particularly blame Snape at this point. Dumbledore was still keeping a lot back from Snape which Snape would have to assume was of paramount importance. Not knowing what those secrets were, I think he had to trust that Dumbledore (and his portrait), knew the best strategic choices and to follow his orders.
I was truly surprised that Dumbledore ordered Snape to kill him, long before the actual tower events where it probably was necessary for Snape to AK Dumbledore in order to protect Harry and Draco and get the DEs and Fenrir out of the castle. But Dumbledore had insisted on Snape killing him long before that situation arose. Why? Why not simply decide to die naturally? Or even to arrange his own death to appear natural, rather than to demand that Snape kill him? Yes, AKing Dumbledore did seem to put Snape even closer to Voldemort. But it appears from Dumbledore and Snape's conversation (apparently held prior to the Vow being made) that Voldemort was already trusting Snape with important secrets, like Draco's mission to kill DD, or LV's expectation to take over Hogwarts.
I don't think it was any mistake that in the same chapter where JKR was revealing Snape's true loyalties, she also had him directly challenging Dumbledore's actions. Up until GOF, Dumbledore did raise Harry up to die. Sure he learned later that Harry could, possibly, live, but prior to LV's taking Harry's blood, DD's expectation and even plan was that Harry die.
I'm still trying to figure out exactly what I think of Albus when all is said and done.
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Potter Ace - Jul 23, 2007 9:00 am (#115 of 340)
I guess I am going to have to eat a lot of crow over the the Harry is/isn't a Horocrux. With what we were given, I just did not think that could happen, but it is her world and magic after all so I'll just dig in with my apologies to HH11 and those of you who got it right.
Overall I'm left with an empty feeling in my stomach over the epilogue. I wanted to hear more about where they are now and what happened in the 19 years. I could have cared less that their were children but I think something like on her web page with the Wizard of the Month, just a page for each character to sum up their life.
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Vaughn - Jul 23, 2007 9:11 am (#116 of 340)
Well I thought the book was amazing. Does anyone have the exact quote about someone doing magic late in life? I wonder if this might not be attributed to Molly who suddenly is able to duel and overcome Bellatrix who is by all accounts a witch with abilities that are quite extraordinary. I do not think that Molly has really shown exceptional magical ability before now and then when her daughter was in a situation where she was in danger and indeed her whole family was in danger Molly was able to perform magic that she previously did not have the ability to perform. That was what I thought fulfilled the "magic late in life" thing.
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I Am Used Vlad - Jul 23, 2007 9:20 am (#117 of 340)
As much as I hate to admit it, I pretty much agree with everything Loopy says about the book.
Some thoughts:
Who exactly did magic late in life?????? Maybe Finn's idea about it being someone in the past was right.
The unknown Horcrux was, in a word, stupid. Talk about anti-climatic.
The Epilogue, in a word, sucked. I thought we were going to find out about all the surviving characters. The cool named of Draco's son did, however, almost make it worth it.
It was a great book, still.
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Thom Matheson - Jul 23, 2007 9:33 am (#118 of 340)
Wynnleaf, my thought about Snape killing DD had to do with his knowledge (as well as Voldemort's) of the wand. Knowing that Voldemort would need to kill Snape rather then Draco Malfoy.
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MoaningMyrtle101 - Jul 23, 2007 9:45 am (#119 of 340)
About the magic-later-in-life person: Ron spoke Parseltongue, didn't he? I think that might have been it.
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rassannassar - Jul 23, 2007 9:55 am (#120 of 340)
Yes, Ron spoke Parseltongue, but did not really understand it. He was just mimicking sounds he had heard Harry make when trying to open the locket. So that's not it.
Part of the reason that Snape killed Dumbledore was I think to protect Dumbledore from a slow, painful death. While we know that Dumbledore did not fear death, he was probably too proud to let himself die painfully, and out of pride decided that he would dictate the terms of his death.
Also, in regards to Snape killing Dumbledore, this had everything to do with the Elder Wand. Because Snape was not really defeating Dumbledore, Snape would not become the master of the Elder Wand and with Dumbledore's death, the power of it would be broken. Snape wasn't intended to become it's master as I believe it was stated, and the power of the Wand was supposed to be broken. I do not think that Dumbledore was expecting Draco to disarm him, nor do I think that he took that possiblity into account, and therefore did not realize that Draco could have possibly become the master of the Elder Wand.
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Solitaire - Jul 23, 2007 10:29 am (#121 of 340)
I wanted to see ... who was Head at Hogwarts.... Why, Grimmett, it just MUST be McGonagall, of course ... to be succeeded by none other than ... NEVILLE LONGBOTTOM!!! (Okay, well, that's MY fantasy, anyway!)
Esther, I completely agree that the door has been left open for more Wizarding stories ... but perhaps they will come with the next generation or focus on one of the other characters, with Harry in a more minor role. I agree with Harry--he has had enough trouble for a lifetime! I loved that thought that zipped through his brain when he wondered if he would be the same kind of godfather to Teddy as Sirius had been to him.
Holly, I agree about Hagrid. I was sure he was a goner.
DD's expectation and even plan was that Harry die. I do believe it was probably his expectation ... but his plan? I do not believe it was. If you look at what Dumbledore reveals--and withholds--after each of Harry's narrow escapes, it is clear that he loves Harry. I think that is why he kept putting off the inevitable moment when Harry must be told--and why he never gave him the full blow--because he hoped that some other option would present itself. Well, that's my opinion.
Vaughn, Molly has been doing magic since we first met her. Just because she has not been out dueling DEs doesn't mean she couldn't have dueled.
Poor Snape! (I never thought I'd say that!) He must have known by the time Voldemort killed him that Harry was most likely the master of the Elder wand, because I am sure Draco told him that Harry had taken his wand. Snape would have known, I think, that even though the wand that Harry took from Draco was not the Elder Wand, it was the fact that he had disarmed its owner which made him Master of the Elder Wand. If Voldemort had known this going into the final battle, he would have disarmed Harry rather than first attempting the AK ... and things might have ended very differently. No, Snape had to conceal that knowledge, in effect, giving his life to protect Harry and, once again, invoking the ancient magic.
Solitaire
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Steve Newton - Jul 23, 2007 10:30 am (#122 of 340)
There was lots to like in this book. The one scene which I found to be very moving is when they are at the Lovegood's and see what Luna has painted on the ceiling. Her 5 friends. Incredible, I wish we knew what became of her.
As someone elsewhere has suggested, the first chapter suggests that JKR is a disturbed individual.
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NickyJean01 - Jul 23, 2007 10:32 am (#123 of 340)
My hopes and dreams weren't neccessarily fulfilled but I can't complain too much she stayed true to form and didn't let anyone truly sway her writing ..
My pluses..
I loved the use of the griffen sword belong more then just to harry.. this made others important.. Ron's timely arrival and Neville slaying the 'beast' was awesome..
I completely loved molly coming in and taking out the evil woman.. it was unexpected and heroic and totally gave molly something then mother hen concern..
I actully loved the entire story of the Beedle Tales.. but felt it was actually unnecessary and not even used in my opinion..
I loved the ghosts of Hogwartz given a back story like that of the bloody barron and the lady in grey..
I was floored by Snape becoming headmaster .. absolutely floored.. the fall of the ministry and the WWII like radio programs with a password was just so great and I'm not one for war movies or stories but it gave a real air of realisim
I too felt the Tonks/Lupin were rushed.. they were there one minute married the next, child shortly after and then finally death all in what could probably be considered one chapter in length..
Oh and the malfoys.. talk about a 180.. Narcissia's love for her son, and Lucis calling his name during the battle I actually felt bad really bad..
The death of dobby is a plus for me because it touched me the way it should.. had me in tears just now typing about it.. the way harry dug the grave.. everything.. it just broke me a little..
Kretcher, who would have thought that I would like him.. I suppose it would be to much for him to have been touched by hermionie in someway.. too much too soon .. but his love for regulus was great..
My minus..
Can't say enough not enough snape..
I was really hoping that neither of my twins would leave and I really thought that the loss of George's ear was what would save them because surely that would be enough damage to our twins.. but alas no..
They really betrayed me with the death of snape, fred, tonks and lupin.. unlike dobby and even mad-eye.. it felt like a one sentence word.. no real closure.. no real emotion.. and I felt deprived..
The epilouge.. I agree with many.. I would have preferred something that went right down the line telling us what happened to whom.. because I just felt too much wasn't mentioned..
Finally, when they said someone unexpected would be a professor.. Neville really isn't that unexpected.. either as a DA or Herboligist.. that just seemed to fit... Luna would have been unexpect.. but whom I really held out for in the end.. picture this.. Snape as a ghost.. still a potion professor.. wouldn't do DA because of his guilt.. but as a potion master.. it just makes sense that he of everyone.. racked with guilt.. murder of many especially Dumbledore.. would have issue going to the other side.. but all of us knowing he was dead.. wouldn't we have been surprised to see that he had returned as a potion master as a ghost.. I'm sure it will be a fanfiction near you..
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KTO - Jul 23, 2007 10:40 am (#124 of 340)
Did'nt JK mention late in life magic before book six? If so, then I think she ment Merope and her use of magic to love potion Tom Riddle Senior.
KT
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Loopy Lupin - Jul 23, 2007 10:42 am (#125 of 340)
As much as I hate to admit it, I pretty much agree with everything Loopy says about the book. -- Vlad
Now you're coming around! And it only took about 3 years and 2 books to accomplish that. "Sucked" and "stupid" might have be a little strong for me regarding the epilogue and Harry as Horcrux. I'd tend to agree with you more on the epilogue thing. Harry as Horcrux is not without its problems however. Didn't Voldemort have to mean to create a Horcrux? He meant to kill Harry not to leave a part of his soul in him.
Oh, and when Hermione and Ron came back from the Chamber of Secrets, did they have a broom with them or something (don't have my book handy)? Otherwise, how'd they get out?
I think Denise is probably right with the "Why Didn't They Just Apparate" question. It also occurs to me that they were typically doing side-along with Hermione so they had to all get into position and so forth. Plus, now I think about it, they did Apparate out of trouble a lot eventually. They couldn't very well Apparate from Bathilda's house until they jumped out the window and got away from Naginia for example.
Speaking of Apparating, again, I thougt that one could Apparate just about anywhere if you had the place well in your mind. I would think then that LV could apparate to Hogsmeade from anywhere he might be but Harry was talking about LV having to get "close enough" after his trip to the Zombie Lake to apparate the rest of the way.
I wonder if Scorpius and Albus Severus will be friends?
EDIT--- Well Merope wasn't "late in life" but that's a relative term I suppose.
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Holly T. - Jul 23, 2007 10:53 am (#126 of 340)
Loopy, yes they had a broom with them when they came back from the Chamber of Secrets.
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Ida-ho-Potato - Jul 23, 2007 11:05 am (#127 of 340)
I loved the book. If is my favorite in the series. I agree, I would love to know what happened with everybody else. Maby she will tell us through her web-site. You know another door opening or through her diary.
I also did not figure out who performs magic later in life. wait, could it have been Stan shunpike. Could he have been a squib before he went to azkaban? who knows, just a thought.
Harry lives yeahhhhhhhhh!!!
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So Sirius - Jul 23, 2007 11:19 am (#128 of 340)
It took me awhile to write this out, because I wasn't sure I even wanted to. I'm sad that the series is done and Harry Potter is virtually no more, unless she decided to write about the years between the final and epilogue and more about unanswered questions and other characters.
As far as book 7... hmmmm. There were things I liked and things I am still shaking my head over. It was predictable in some ways and out of left field in others. I felt it was painstaking at times to get through it. Every time I read "weeks had passed" or the like, I couldn't understand how there was this war going on, people were searching for these kids and they just sat out in hiding for the length of time they did. Sure, I saw at the end DD try to explain that away saying that he was hoping Hermione would slow them up, but still... and yes, I know they didn't have much but those convoluted clues to go on, but do something, go somewhere, etc. It was as though she used up a lot of pages to say something irrelevant, that could have been condensed into 5 pages. It's nice to have a nice long book at the final, but only if it's filled with something relevant and interesting.
It was an interesting, albeit confusing end, but I was expecting more. The room in the MoM or something.... maybe that's what the room or power from that room was in Harry's mind, who knows. Yes the whole DD and Snape stories were interesting, but I didn't feel, full.
I still can't figure out why the group listened to Dung about the 7 potter plan, when they arrived disillusioned and it was fine to do that, why not leave that way?
I still don't know why Hedwig had to die. It made me nauseous and I can't figure out the purpose of it. Dobby's death made me sad too, but I just don't get Hedwig.
I couldn't figure out how DD died, when he did in fact possess all the deathly hallows, until I worked out that he gave one of them away to it's rightful owner, Harry.
I thought it corny, honestly, that a lot of the jerks to Harry, had this great and meaningful turn around. Dudley, Kreacher, etc. Sweet and all, but c'mon. It just took being nice and kind to the elf and all of a sudden he was decent? All it took was LV, Malfoys lord to treat him and his family like dirt, the same way he treated others, to have a turn around.... c'mon. I see the morality factor, but it made a corny story.
All in all, I think Jo is the Madonna of writers. It's her and the publishers that I think are geniuses. The marketing, the way the books came out is genius. There are brilliant books out there, but who reads them over and over looking for clues and discussing them? I see kids in the future, reading the Potter series, liking them, but not finding it as discussable and incredible as we all have. I truly believe the lack of not having all the answers, not having the closure, made it perhaps greater than it truly was.
All and all, I have loved the series, I don't regret reading them as voraciously as I have nor should I feel duped by a brilliant marketing ploy and I feel that the characters are part of me now, but I thought book 7 could have been told in 400 less pages and maybe i'll read it again at some point and change my mind and see what I was missing in all the fluff, but that's my view for now.
Jo is brilliant, no denying it, anyway, she said some will either love it or loathe it. Frankly, I lean more to liking it, somewhere between the 2. My brother goaded me about her not answering any of my questions and I told him he was wrong, this book is 750 plus pages and it won't be something like, the kids sitting in a tent kind of thing, it will be full of answers, lol. Perhaps I missed something. Although it's her favorite of the series and although there are things I greatly like in it, it's not my favorite or the one I'd like to re-read again and again.
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Mrs. D. - Jul 23, 2007 11:47 am (#129 of 340)
I do have one nagging thought regarding Ginny of all people. She was never my favorite character but she had been blown up with the seventh child of the seventh child and how amazing of a witch she was supposed have become only to have her seem rather mediocre again in this last book.
I need to reread it but have to wait until my son is finished with it. I read so fast the first time through. I was shocked and saddened by the deaths of Hedwig, Dobby and Fred. I was sad for Mad-Eye, Lupin and Tonks but not surprised. I was very disturbed by Harry having been made Godfather and no real mention of him having raised the boy knowing just how alike they were. I really would have liked much more on that.
I agree with most regarding the epilogue. What I really wanted to know was what careers they had all chosen.
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Holly T. - Jul 23, 2007 11:57 am (#130 of 340)
I like it where Dumbledore is explaining to Harry that Voldemort underestimates things he doesn't value--house elves, love, children's stories. He is speaking specifically of the tale of the three brothers, but I think it also says something about those people who we all know who are scratching their heads and trying to figure out why we are so interested/obsessed with, crying our eyes out over "a children's book."
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Kevin Corbett - Jul 23, 2007 12:50 pm (#131 of 340)
All in all, I think Jo is the Madonna of writers.
I couldn't disagree more. Aside from the fact that I hate Madonna, I can't help but feel that the ultra-popularity of of the series has hurt it, not on an artistic level, but on the level of making it seem like this huge fad that must have no merit. I think the best comparison for this series are Tolkien's Lord of the Rings, which was insanely popular when it came out, went into a place were it was still quietly beloved, and was still able to come roaring back a few years ago. Or perhaps we can hope they'll be like the Narnia series, and always be hugely popular..
I also think there is a really key matter that some people are missing---the idea that Dumbledore always intended for Harry to die. I think it makes it pretty obvious that this was not the case, but Harry would have to believe it to be---that if Harry willingly sacrificed his life to save the world from Voldemort, he would be able to come back after the (I have a new term I've invented) "scarcrux" had been destroyed, because that would invoke the power of Lily's sacrifice which, since LV took Harry's blood, lived in both of them.
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Deb Zawacki - Jul 23, 2007 4:46 pm (#132 of 340)
Although Lupin's death saddened me, for his character, to die in battle fighting for the greater good, side by side with those he loved and cared for was a far more preferable one to immortality as a werewolf. He was sad not to watch his son grow up--but he was now free of his earthly curse; and with Tonks and his two best friends, moved on.
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rassannassar - Jul 23, 2007 8:35 pm (#133 of 340)
OK, so there are a lot of questions that still haven't been answered, but I'm OK with that because even if Jo doesn't write another book, that just means that we can all imagine what we want and be happy with it. Also, I think all of the books were brilliant, and I know it's not like the Lord of the Rings, which actually did take a couple of years to become fairly popular, but never matched (obviously based on the fact that DH has already set records) Harry Potter. It's kind of sad to think that all we have to look forward to are the movies, which I sure hope don't get butchered as badly as Prisoner of Azkaban, Goblet of Fire, and Order of the Phoenix were. There are somethings they'll have to do in HBP to fix some of the shortcomings of the first five movies, in order to be ready for DH. And when it comes time for the movie for Deathly Hallows, it better be about three hours, because anything less than that just won't be sufficient to cover everything that needs to be covered. Anything less than about three hours won't do it justice. Personally, I'm more excited about the remakes that are bound to be done in about 20 or 30 years. And when they are done, I'm sure they'll be far better than the movies we have now. I stand by what I've been saying for a while now: the movies should not have been made until the series was complete and they knew what was important and needed to be kept in. I mean, they wanted to cut our Kreacher from the 5th movie but Jo told them he had to be in there.
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Solitaire - Jul 23, 2007 10:28 pm (#134 of 340)
So, let me get this straight ... Stan Shunpike really is a Death Eater? Has he been one all along, or is he just under the Imperius Curse? Harry describes his face as "strangely blank," yet he IDs Harry as the real HP.
Solitaire
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Amelie Ferrer - Jul 24, 2007 2:06 am (#135 of 340)
Edited by Catherine Jul 24, 2007 6:50 am
Holly T - I completely agree with you about the comment Dumbledore made about "Childrens stories".
I also thought this linked in with the last sentence of that chapter "of course it is happening inside you head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?"
I imagine that if I had read that when I was a child I would have found that line magical.
Edited to capitalize the pronoun "I." We do not use Netspeak on the Forum, and ask everyone to use appropriate capitalization in their posts. --Catherine
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TomProffitt - Jul 24, 2007 4:26 am (#136 of 340)
Solitaire, I think Shunpike was an unwilling recruit, snapped up from Azkaban when the real Death Eaters were freed. Stan was more of a conscripted soldier than a convert.
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wolfgrl - Jul 24, 2007 6:06 am (#137 of 340)
So, who showed magical ability late in life? Did I just miss it? Is this discussed someware?
Wolfgrl
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NickyJean01 - Jul 24, 2007 6:14 am (#138 of 340)
Solitaire, Stan was under the imperal curse.. that's why Harry refused to even stun him.. because he would have died from the fall ..
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Shauna Henry - Jul 24, 2007 7:31 am (#139 of 340)
I think the person that did magic late in life was Dudley. Not magic like everyone is thinking, but the magic of love - which Dumbledore had said in previous books was a very powerful thing. (And one that Voldemort did not understand).
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So Sirius - Jul 24, 2007 9:09 am (#140 of 340)
Perhaps the person to do magic later in life is Harry's son. I realize that it was taken to refer to someone already with us that will show magic later, and I personally think it meant Neville. Of course he was already doing magic, but at such a substandard level. Maybe she was referring to how he really came into his own later on. But what if we just assumed that concept and her idea all along was regarding their child?
Then again, maybe she just didn't include it at all, in book 7.
"We've been betrayed...."
So says Lupin near the beginning of the book. Near the end, we learn just who the betrayer was.
There was a lot to like in this book, as many people have listed. But I'm having a hard time getting the deconstruction and refitting of Dumbledore to make sense. I liked the human and flawed Dumbledore we got to see in OotP and HBP, but here in DH Rowling needed him to do certain things to make her plot work, and to do that she did more than hit him a few times with a Stupidity Stick: He seems to have climbed to the top of the Stupidity Tree, fallen off, and hit every single branch on the way down.
First Dumbledore makes the mistake of putting the ring on, and the thus the blackened hand. Given the background Rowling gave us on Dumbledore in DH-- which was excellent-- I'll buy that. So he will die in a year, and he wants Snape to murder him. Er, why? He's going to die, right? So why make Snape murder him? Just why is it that Snape is required to pay with his soul for Dumbledore's stupidity? I can't believe that Dumbledore couldn't come up with a better plan than to demoralize the entire wizarding world.
Dumbledore knew he had a year to get his affairs in order. I was hoping to see that he trusted certain members of the Order with information, as a backup. But, no.
Dumbledore tells Snape he can't tell him anything because of the dangerous position he occupies, then proceeds to tell Snape the biggest secret of them all. Because Harry obviously will listen to Snape when he goes looking for him . Wouldn't someone who Harry trusted and would listen to have made more sense? Someone who had a better chance of finding Harry? Certainly Dumbledore could have chosen to build trust between his Order members. But, no. Because Dumbledore founded the Order of the Phoenix, it is painful to see how little he trusted the people in his organization at the end.
And in the end, Dumbledore betrays the Order-- after a fashion: His soul has departed weeks earlier, so it is his portrait that does the actual betraying. But the portrait is an imprint of Dumbledore, and it is astounding that he imbued it with such remarkable arrogance! In HBP, Dumbledore informs Harry that he suspected the diary was a Horcrux because it began to think and act for itself, more than a mere memory. But portraits don't have souls, or even fragments of souls, and here's this one dictating his plans, passing death sentences on to his Order members, not trusting them, risking the lives of all three of his Horcrux hunters. Why? Because Snape has lost his position in the Order after murdering Dumbledore, but since Snape is for some reason supposed to be well informed anyway, the Order and the Horcrux hunters need to be sacrificed to protect Snape. So, Mad-Eye Moody is killed, a few people are maimed or injured, the wizarding households who are acting as safehouses have their whereabouts revealed, and all is well with the world. That a soulless entity should be granted the license to play with the living like pawns in a game is mindboggling.
The Order became nothing more to Dumbledore than a sacrificial lamb, and he had no confidence in his organization or it's members. His legacy seems to have persevered despite him, not because of him.
Personally, when Albus in his lifetime dropped into the Hog's Head for a drink, I think Aberforth should have taken the opportunity to hit his brother a couple of more times on the nose. The first time doesn't seem to have done the trick.
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Solitaire - Jul 22, 2007 8:41 pm (#92 of 340)
I am devastated about Snape. He is, without doubt, the loneliest character I have ever encountered, and that he never got the redemption he so desperately deserved just breaks my heart.
You are right ... it is sad that it took his death for Harry (and others) to see that he was capable of love. Snape is a perfect picture of how one's choices shape his life. He could have been so much more to the son of the woman he had always loved, but his early choices placed him in a position which rendered that impossible. When he chose to join Voldemort ... when he chose to share the prophecy ... he set in motion a chain of events which would bind him in so many ways. Even if he'd wanted to be a mentor and friend to Harry--and Harry had held no prejudices against Snape when he first arrived, so he might have welcomed the friendship of one who knew and truly valued Lily--the role in which his previous choices had eventually placed him would have probably made such a friendship suspicious to those like Lucius and other DEs.
Snape missed out on being a friend and mentor to Harry and settled instead for being his assumed tormentor and adversary. Because of his own earlier choices and actions, he would never live to see Harry acknowledge his love for Lily and vindicate him before the Wizarding World. Yes ... it is sad.
Solitaire
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Nicholas Schouten - Jul 22, 2007 8:58 pm (#93 of 340)
I'm posting here again what I have posted in the first chapter thread as this actually regards the dedication of the book:
Did anyone notice that the dedication begins with "The" and ends with "End". Too much fun for the last book! Way to go Jo!
-Nick
THE END
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geauxtigers - Jul 22, 2007 9:14 pm (#94 of 340)
I juat finished it, and I have to get this off my chest before reading everything completely! It was definatily a roller coaster ride, 100% absolutly.
Good:
Neville killing Nagini! YEAH!
Molly! Molly! OMG Molly! I was shocked! That was great! Makes up for it not being Neville to finish Bella!
I loved Harry's chat with Dumbledore in heaven/King's Cross place. It was really well written.
Oh course, I loved Voldemort's downfall! That was just like so perfect! Harry didn't kill him in a sense, Voldemort killed himself! That nasty rebounding AK! Harry's 'chat' with him before was absolutely brillant!
I can't think of much else, my mind is swimming with so many thoughts!
BAD:
I'd have liked more to the epilogue. I wanted to find out more about everyone else. George, how is he, I can't believe she killed one of them. She'd have done better to do both, being a twin, that was really hard. I just can't even imagine. There are no words...
Hermione, what she did to her parents, that was just wierd. I thought the book started out really rocky overall and I didn't really like it. I almost couldn't read, I kept having to stop, it was frustrating me. It did pick up, but it seemed like there was an awful lot of sitting around and not doing anything, granted we got a lot of info. Dobby's death was horrible! I didn't cry when it happened, but when we got to the funeral part I was sobbing! And of course, Harry 'dying" I started bawling the second my worst fear was confirmed: Harry was a horcrux. I didn't stop until about halfway through the Heaven scene. THen when I realized he was alive, I was like JKR!!!!!!! I just spent the last 20 minutes sobbing and it was for nothing!
So thats the highlights, I'm off to search for threads where I can get into more specifics! Overall, I thought it was absolutly brilliant! I had several "I knew IT!!! I was RIGHT!!!!" Moments, but far more *gasps* and sharp intakes of breathe and several light bulbs going on, and several scenes where I was just plain mad at what she did!
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virginiaelizabeth - Jul 22, 2007 9:15 pm (#95 of 340)
I really liked the book! Definately a roller coaster!
I had a very different feel than any of the others because the Trio were overaged and able to apparate and stuff. It was weird to have such huge chunks of it were it was just the 3 of them, with no other friends or teachers or adults.
Anyone have any idea what scene Marry Grand-Pre painted for the cover? There was never an instance where the 2 of them did any kind of wandless magic or something similar to how they are on the cover.
About the only theory I had right was R.A.B. I had a feeling that it was Regulus and that it somehow involved Kreacher being fed the potion in the cave, so I was sorta right, though I did flip flop between several versions of this over the past year, but I had the essentials right.
I also was pretty sure that the final battle would take place at Hogwarts.
And just to get it overwith for those of you who thought Harry, was a horcrux and had to put up with me constantly attempting to shoot you down that he wasn't one: I admit it! You were right, I was wrong!
Other than that,all of my other theories were completely wayy off the mark!
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Madame Pomfrey - Jul 22, 2007 10:14 pm (#96 of 340)
Virginia,I think the cover is of Harry catching the elder wand.
I was wrong about Snape,sobbingly so.However,I had my doubts about him being evil when he lied at the Malfoy Manor about when Harry would leave the Dursleys.I knew for certain when I saw the silver doe,I knew it had to be Lily's and it (his patronus)would have definitely gave something away had JKR told us sooner. I was right about him loving Lily though.
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Kevin Corbett - Jul 22, 2007 11:30 pm (#97 of 340)
Mrs. Brisby, I must say that your comments bewilder me.
"And in the end, Dumbledore betrays the Order-- after a fashion: His soul has departed weeks earlier, so it is his portrait that does the actual betraying. But the portrait is an imprint of Dumbledore, and it is astounding that he imbued it with such remarkable arrogance! In HBP, Dumbledore informs Harry that he suspected the diary was a Horcrux because it began to think and act for itself, more than a mere memory. But portraits don't have souls, or even fragments of souls, and here's this one dictating his plans, passing death sentences on to his Order members, not trusting them, risking the lives of all three of his Horcrux hunters. Why? Because Snape has lost his position in the Order after murdering Dumbledore, but since Snape is for some reason supposed to be well informed anyway, the Order and the Horcrux hunters need to be sacrificed to protect Snape. So, Mad-Eye Moody is killed, a few people are maimed or injured, the wizarding households who are acting as safehouses have their whereabouts revealed, and all is well with the world. That a soulless entity should be granted the license to play with the living like pawns in a game is mindboggling."
Are you saying here that this plan was impossible to begin with? The lives of the horcrux hunters were going to be threatened no matter what---this way, Snape could at least control a degree of what happened, which otherwise he would have had none of. It was only because he hadn't counted on Mundungus being such a total coward---otherwise, I think the plan would have gone off without a hitch. Note that the plan managed to keep Voldemort away from Harry long enough for him to make it to the safehouse. Furthermore, no one gave the portrait license to do anything---Snape could have easily hid it in a closet and ignored it if he wanted to. The portraits of the old headmasters are there to serve the present headmaster, and Dumbledore's portrait did just that.
"Dumbledore tells Snape he can't tell him anything because of the dangerous position he occupies, then proceeds to tell Snape the biggest secret of them all. Because Harry obviously will listen to Snape when he goes looking for him . Wouldn't someone who Harry trusted and would listen to have made more sense? Someone who had a better chance of finding Harry? Certainly Dumbledore could have chosen to build trust between his Order members. But, no. Because Dumbledore founded the Order of the Phoenix, it is painful to see how little he trusted the people in his organization at the end."
Are you suggesting then that Dumbledore should have let someone else in on the secret of Snape's loyalty? Snape position as a double agent cannot be underestimated---Neville and Ginny, I think, would not have survived the year without his protection, and note that Luna was only taken when she was on the train home and out of his reach. Keep in mind as well that the members of the Order had never really trusted Snape to begin with, and the only way to make them completely do so would be to reveal Snape's love for Lily and his role in her death, which would have been impossible. Then there is the fact that even if he hadn't died, Snape would have probably conveyed his message through the Pensieve, which is really the only way Harry would have ever believed it. After Dumbledore's death, the truth of his death lay nowhere but in the mind of Severus Snape---I can think of no other way that would not have seemed an obvious trap. I can scarcely think Harry would have supposed such an intelligence, the brunt of which was "Thou must die", coming from a Lupin or Kingsly to be anything but a Polyjuiced Death Eater.
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Mrs Brisbee - Jul 23, 2007 3:27 am (#98 of 340)
Are you saying here that this plan was impossible to begin with? The lives of the horcrux hunters were going to be threatened no matter what---this way, Snape could at least control a degree of what happened, which otherwise he would have had none of.-- Kevin Corbett
Yaxley's information put the date of Harry's leaving the Dursleys on the 30th, but that was a decoy. Snape gave Voldemort the correct date. So, without Snape's information, a huge party of Death Eaters wouldn't have been there ready to ambush. So I am saying that, yes, it was a totally pointless betrayal that needlessly put lots of lives in danger, including Harry, Ron, and Hermione. I'm not sure what you mean by Snape having control of the situation. There were thirty Death Eaters there, plus Voldemort, chasing seven groups of two. What control?
Furthermore, no one gave the portrait license to do anything---Snape could have easily hid it in a closet and ignored it if he wanted to. The portraits of the old headmasters are there to serve the present headmaster, and Dumbledore's portrait did just that.
No, Snape didn't have to listen to the portrait (I think he must have been whacked with the Stupidity Stick a few times, too). What the portrait shows us is how arrogant the actual Dumbledore had been in life, because the portrait seems to think that it can plan and dictate and play with people's lives much more effectively than the people still living who have to deal with the consequences. And we know it can't, because a portrait is only an imprint without a soul. That's the only thing that prevents me laying the murder of Moody at Dumbledore's door (because it isn't the actual Dumbledore with his soul along who is doing the plotting). But Dumbledore's death certainly imprinted his portrait with a deep level of hypocrisy and arrogance, because the portrait still seemed to believe in its right to make these sort of plans.
Snape was not Headmaster. The conversation took place between Dumbledore's death and Harry leaving the Dursleys. The Ministry had not yet fallen. The portrait had no such obligation to "help" Snape. And Snape should have ignored its advice, and thought for himself.
Are you suggesting then that Dumbledore should have let someone else in on the secret of Snape's loyalty? Snape position as a double agent cannot be underestimated---Neville and Ginny, I think, would not have survived the year without his protection, and note that Luna was only taken when she was on the train home and out of his reach.
I had not suggested that, because I was talking about something else altogether, but now you mention it, yes, the living Dumbledore would have been better to have heeded his own advice about building trust and harmony to defeat Voldemort. All Dumbledore's advice to others turned out to be empty platitudes. It seems he set Snape up to be the lone misunderstood hero by seeding suspicion and mistrust, and setting the people working for the same thing against each other.
Keep in mind as well that the members of the Order had never really trusted Snape to begin with, and the only way to make them completely do so would be to reveal Snape's love for Lily and his role in her death, which would have been impossible.
I hadn't given this any thought, but why would it be impossible? Looking at the stakes, and all the horrible things Dumbledore was willing to do to achieve his ends, what was stopping Dumbledore from telling Snape: "Forget your right to privacy for a moment, Severus, the entire wizarding world is at stake and I'm going to die. At least one other person needs to be let in on the truth and know you are trustworthy." But of course the big problem here is that Dumbledore didn't trust anybody else.
Then there is the fact that even if he hadn't died, Snape would have probably conveyed his message through the Pensieve, which is really the only way Harry would have ever believed it. After Dumbledore's death, the truth of his death lay nowhere but in the mind of Severus Snape---I can think of no other way that would not have seemed an obvious trap. I can scarcely think Harry would have supposed such an intelligence, the brunt of which was "Thou must die", coming from a Lupin or Kingsly to be anything but a Polyjuiced Death Eater.
Would it be likely that Snape would have the opportunity to chat with Harry, and that Harry would listen? The truth about him being a Horcrux would have been better coming from an ally, someone who is more likely to encounter Harry, someone who Harry would listen to, someone who Harry could question. If Dumbledore had wanted to set that up, he could have just as easily given someone Harry trusted a memory to pour in the pensieve.
Dumbledore himself helped bring about the chaos of the wizarding world and the fall of Hogwarts. He allowed Draco to terrorize the school in HBP, to the point it was likened to the time the Chamber of Secrets was opened. He knew his death was coming, so he plotted to have his DADA professor murder him, thus demoralizing the wizarding world, sowing treachery, mistrust, discord, and lies: The very things he said make Voldemort stronger.
The betrayal of the Order by the portrait and Snape is just more of the same. The Order knew they had been betrayed. They just weren't sure by whom.
Before Deathly Hallows came out, there was speculation that there would be another betrayer, and I saw predictions as far-fetched as Lupin or Neville as the betrayer, things which I was sure would never come to pass. Never did I imagine that the betrayer would end up being Albus Dumbledore. More than anything, he betrayed them through his arrogance and hypocrisy.
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Loopy Lupin - Jul 23, 2007 5:18 am (#99 of 340)
I'm still quite blown away and haven't really had time to put all thoughts together, but here's some random observations:
As has been pointed out, Draco was the master of the Elder Wand, having disarmed DD in HBP. I don't think all the previous times of wands being taken ultimately matter that much at least insofar as they were usually taken back. Even so, it's not like a wand won't "work" for someone other than its "master." It just won't work as well.
Previously, I theorized at length that Petunia would show magic late in life and JKR shot that down in an interview. Maybe Filch was supposed to do a spell or something, but it got cut out of the final edit. In any event, like Denise, I wonder what I missed on that issue.
Neville killing Bellatrix would've been more satisfying, but you can't have everything I suppose.
Why Draco was the master of the Elder wand wasn't completely clear to me until Catherine explained it. I'm still not exactly clear why taking Draco's wand at Malfoy Manor made any difference later on to the Elder Wand though.
I don't have a problem with Harry giving a kid "Severus" as a middle name. Albus Severus would've been born 8 years after the Battle of Hogwarts. That's a good chunk of time for Harry to process through Snape's behavior towards him vs. the discovery that Snape had been risking his life to act as DD's spy all along. On a different note, I wonder if James' middle name is "Dobby."
Speaking of the Epilogue, it feels "tacked on" because it was "tacked on" although given that it was written first you might say that DH was tacked on to the front of the Epilogue. Still, I wanted to know that everyone was doing ok in the future and the Epilogue served that purpose well enough.
Was it just me, or were there times when you wondered why they wouldn't just apparate away from some of the stickier spots? True, there were times when they did, but there were other times when I wondered why they were sticking around.
I was a little ambivalent about Percy coming back after all this time. If a Weasley had to go, why not him instead of Fred?
McGonnagal Rules!!!
JKR said in a statement last week that soon, we would know "EVERYTHING." She didn't really think we wouldn't think of questions did she?
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septentrion - Jul 23, 2007 5:20 am (#100 of 340)
I think I have a theory of why there wasn't a portrait of Severus Snape in the headmaster's office: he wasn't headmaster anymore when he died, he has been "sacked". I don't think the wording of the chapter title, the sacking of Severus Snape, is totally innocent. Of course, I don't know if you have to be headmaster(mistress) at the time of your death to have your portrait in the office, it's just a theory.
Deb Zawacki - Jul 23, 2007 5:24 am (#101 of 340)
I was so excited by this book. I don't think we could have asked for a better conclusion.
There was one thing that I HOPED would happen that didn't, though. I thought that maybe HArry and Petunia would have conversation and reconcilliation of some sort. That Dudley thanked him was moving, but I was hoping for Petunia to give him something, or see Lily's eyes in Harry was going to be part of the story.
Also, the epilogue was touching but I really wanted to hear more about the careers of the main characters and the rest of the Weaselys, where they all lived and whether "the three" stayed another year at Hogwarts to finish up. I would love to know more about McGonnagal and the characters we came to love. And none of the children was named Freddy......
OK, maybe in book 8......
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Mare - Jul 23, 2007 5:37 am (#102 of 340)
I truly loved watching Kreacher's character unfold. By acknowledging Kreacher's love for Regulus and rewarding his service with the fake locket--which had meaning to Kreacher--Harry earned his loyalty. I wonder ... did he keep Kreacher, leave him at Hogwarts, or set him free? Given his inscription on Dobby's gravestone, I am hoping the latter.
I'm not sure if Kreacher, having been so lonely for such a long time wouldn't much rather stay and serve Harry. Of course Harry could do the right thing and give him a choice, but I think Kreacher, like Winky, would like nothing better than to serve and have the company of a good master and his family.
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Solitaire - Jul 23, 2007 6:22 am (#103 of 340)
Mare, I am hoping Harry does set Kreacher free ... and Kreacher returns to serve him out of love and respect. After all, look at where Kreacher places Harry in his war cry as he leads the House Elves out of the kitchens:
Fight! Fight! Fight for my Master, defender of House-elves! Fight the Dark Lord in the name of brave Regulus! Fight!
He has acknowledged Harry as his Master and of his own free will. I believe that Kreacher will choose to stay with Harry. Interesting, isn't it, how a little respect and consideration can turn a sad, horrible life around?
Solitaire
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Mare - Jul 23, 2007 6:30 am (#104 of 340)
You know I hadn't even thought of how "master" could mean Harry, I just thought he ment Regulus all the time. Of course, Harry makes more sense.
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Amelie Ferrer - Jul 23, 2007 6:35 am (#105 of 340)
I absolutely loved this book and enjoyed reading it from start to finish - all the while never wanting it to end.
I think the reason that Dumbledore appeared so flippant when talking to Snape about Harry imminant death is because Dumbledore knew from the moment Voldemort took Harry blood to regenerate his body that Harry was not destined to die. Remember the "gleam of truimph" in Dumbledore's eyes after hearing this news from Harry in Goblet of fire. I believe he knew from that moment that that the shared blood would tether Harry to life regardless of being hit by a killing curse.
However i think that dumbledore knew that it was of utmost importance that Harry beleived he was walking into his death - Harry must believe that in order to open the Snitch. He had to walk willing into death so that Voldeort could kill the small part of his own soul trapped inside Harry. Harry would then be tethered to earth by their shared blood leaving Harry able to return complete with a sacrifice protection for Harry's friends.
I think Dumbledore chose not to tell Snape that Harry would not die so that Snape would not be tempted to tell Harry the truth.
All round a pretty perfect plan
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M A Grimmett - Jul 23, 2007 6:42 am (#106 of 340)
Edited Jul 23, 2007 8:21 am
First, I ADORED that Remus and Tonks made Harry the godfather of little Teddy. That was a real full-circle moment.
I loved how Dumbledore was given a backstory; again he showed his wisdom by knowing that power was bad for him and avoiding it when possible.
The Harry as Horcrux thing made sense, but still seemed a bit contrived. After all, if LV couldn't touch him, couldn't possess him, how was it that the soul bit was able to hang in there for so long and actively connect the two?
I enjoyed Peeves' "moldy Voldy" song.
Didn't care for the epilogue as much as I thought I would. I wanted to see how George was doing without Fred, whether Weasley's Wizarding Wheezes was going strong and who was helping George, where everybody worked, how Mr and Mrs Weasley were getting on, who was Head at Hogwarts....
Loved the Patronuses (Patroni?), especially Kingsley's lynx and Mr Weasley's weasel. Also Snape's doe. Geeze, Snape, carry a torch much? I enjoyed seeing Petunia before she got too bitter.
I enjoyed the Snape's Memory Montage. Makes you wonder what would have happened if Harry hadn't had his mother's eyes.
I was glad that Dudley was a man at last, and better than his parents. If Duddykins has magical kids, at least he has a resource.
Hedwig! I felt so bad for her, although it would have been hard to keep her happy during the months of concealment.
I also found the honor guard of Harry's dead when he went to confront LV very moving and a perfect touch.
And seriously, GO NEVILLE! I was so pleased that he came out not only ok, but a serious leader, a hero for cutting off Nagini's head, AND Herbology teacher!! Whoo hoo!
MacGonagal rocks!!! What I liked about Harry coming to her defense is that when he was looking at the sword in the pool, he remembered the Sorting Hat and connected the daring and nerve part--this was definitely the chivalry that sets Gryphendors apart!
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septentrion - Jul 23, 2007 6:49 am (#107 of 340)
Amelie Ferrer, thank you for making clearer, at least for me, all that theory about blood and soul. It was hard however not to have told Severus. He might not like Harry at all, but sending Lily's son to death knowingly, "for the greater good" must have been very hard for him.
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Esther Rose - Jul 23, 2007 7:05 am (#108 of 340)
I am sure there is a million and one flaws we could find but I don't care. Right now I loved it.
I do want to know what happened to George, Dean, Luna, and some of the other minor characters.
I also noticed that while JKR closed Harry's story. She definitely left the Wizarding World wide open for more stories should she choose to write them. My only request is to make sure Harry does not have to fight in any more wars.
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gankomon - Jul 23, 2007 8:21 am (#109 of 340)
well!
I completed the book the day it arrived (1:45PM) where I live. Took me the better part of three hours, and my first thought is that that was quite a ride. As other posters have already mentioned, it was quite a roller-coaster ride, and the darkness, while expected, started much earlier than I had anticipated. When the Ministry fell, I knew that this was not going to be an easy book for Harry, and his earlier loss of both Hedwig and his Firebolt intimated that his childhood was over.
My favorite parts were the reconciliation with Kreacher, the Return of Ron, the final battle (especially Molly's ferocious victory over Bellatrix- remember how Bella's smile faded as she realized that she was up against someone she could not intimidate? I also loved Neville's assumption of leadership in Harry's stead, McGonagal's leadership, and the scene of trelawney throwing crytsal balls.
Least favorite parts were the role of Lupin- I had hoped for so much more from the man who seemd to have conquered his own demons. And his death, with Tonks, was so sad- it seems that one of them should have surivived for little 'Teddy'. I suspect that Tonks and Fred were the two characters who died that Ms. Rowling didn't plan to kill- I think Lupin himself was never intended to survive. I was immensely saddened by Dobby's death, though i can see how important it was to the plot- without it, Griphook might not have helped them break into Gringotts.
The Hallows. Hmmm. I found that entire storyline a littlle too pat, though I enjoyed the mythical references it evoked. And I espercially enjoyed the idea that Voldemort's use of Harry's blood to regenerate meant that harry had kind of an anti-Horcrux. The idea that Harry himself was a Horcrux I didn't belive based on the idea that no one was killed that night. I was wrong, and kudos to those who correctly figured it out- I love the entire explanation of that. And the scene where Harry goes to meet his death (as he thinks) is one of the most touching in the entire series. Someone suggested that Snape was there too, hovering in the background. While that is not canon, I would like to think so. Which brings us to...
Severus Snape. The classical tragic anti-hero, for he is as important to the final victory as anyone and more so than anyone expect Harry himself. I was glad that harry finally moved past his hatred for Snape at the very end, but it wouldd have been nice for them to reconcile during Snape's life. If only Snape could have moved past Harry' appearance when first they met, thihngs could have been different....But I loved the Prince's tale, and it finally explained so much about Snape. I do wonder- what was his boggart?
I expect I shall have more thoughts later, but I must return and re-read the book before I can further comment.
Regards,
gankomon
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Nymphadora - Jul 23, 2007 8:24 am (#110 of 340)
Mrs Brisbee,
What a horrible picture you paint of Dumbledore!! Yes, he manipulated, and yes, he did not trust, but didn't he explain to Severus that he couldn't put all his secrets in one basket? He revealed information on a need-to-know basis because he had learnt early to do so, and because they are in a war. You cannot have everyone know everything or they'll give lots away with, eg., a few drops of Ministry's beloved Veritaserum, or a bit of Crucio. Furthermore, how would the Trio be able to search for the Horcruxes on their own, if everyone was used to know everything about the others? I think that Dumbledore had fully foreseen the situation with both the Ministry and Hogwarts in DE hands (although Umbridge didn't need DE's to make Muggleborns' life a misery), and knew that he had to break the Order into small task forces that would operate independently unless a big project needed to be carried out (Harry's Transport, the Battle at Hogwarts). At all other times, secrecy and stealth were paramount, and you can see the Order did not suffer for it, as most lived until the Battle. How to make them do it though, without angering them or pushing the people closer together? The Order had to FEEL betrayed so they would be pressed to operate in concealment, stealth and CONSTANT VIGILANCE!
About Harry's "betrayal" - first of all, Harry is the Hero and needs to realise and accept his role and his ultimate fate. In fantasy, heroes are customarily left in the dark about important things that they need to discover on their own and accept in time, and they're invariably faced off with their fate at a crucial point. I think that the vessel (Snape) and the incontrovertible truth of the medium (memories) managed to persuade Harry and the readers that Harry must die and that Snape never wanted his harm; the emotional showdown starts there, big time.
About Dumbledore's own intents and purposes - Dumbledore knew that Snape had to let Harry know that Dumbledore had wanted him to die (oof... metacognition in this book is mindboggling!), because Snape will be able to redeem himself by demonstrating that Harry need not like what he has to do as he, Snape, didn't. Dumbledore DOES want Snape to be revealed and honoured for what he actually is. Meanwhile though, Snape must continue to accept and perform the undesirable tasks Dumbledore has heaped on him, and keep the mask on, so the spying can continue. Snape accepted this position when he promised Dumbledore he would do "anything for him". Making Snape kill Dumbledore meant that Snape would be in the position to protect innocents without being faced with DE's mistrust anymore. And dear old Severus confirms this by exclaiming that, were it not for him, the Carrows would have tortured and maybe killed every single Hogwarts pupil (he says this just before his sacking, sorry I don't have the exact page/quote). As for Severus' own soul... well, he tainted it himself, he probably has killed people, surely he watched too many die during the first war without intervening, spied and relayed the Prophecy to Voldemort... until Lily was threatened. And then he only wanted to save her at first, let James and Harry be killed, until Dumbledore reacted strongly. Snape has atoned for most of his crimes, but since his soul is already tainted, Dumbledore preferred to sacrifice that instead of Draco's still innocent one.
I'm in awe of JKR's plot-twisting abilities, really. Hermione is the information vessel, but Dumbledore serves a much higher purpose as he is a formidable psychoanalyst and motivates his Army exactly as he has to. Do not think that leaders have it easy, though. It did have an impact on Dumbledore, and his bravery lies in that he knew no one else could shoulder all this. Being brilliant has a terrible price at times, and he did sacrifice a lot.
Finally, I'm really glad that JKR showed us what Dumbledore was, and explained that a leader always has to make hard choices and make use of people, without divulging his own counsel to all and sundry. I believe that children should understand all these issues raised by DH as they do translate to the real world - I for one would have been better off if I even suspected all this ten years ago. It remains an acquired wisdom, but it helps a lot if you have parallels in your literary heroes.
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Holly T. - Jul 23, 2007 8:29 am (#111 of 340)
I figured Lupin and Tonks would die, but didn't expect that they'd have a baby first. While Teddy is growing up without parents, like Harry, he has a grandmother (Andromeda) who loves him, a godfather and his family who love him and care for him (not to mention a godfather who isn't in Azkaban), all of which give him the family and love that Harry didn't have growing up. Of course it is still sad that he lost his parents, but they died fighting in a war. I hope that he is proud of them.
I think Hagrid is the character who got the reprieve. I've been expecting him to die since book 5. I'm glad he didn't! I sure thought he was a goner there at the beginning. I think he got the reprieve so he could carry Harry at the end when Harry is "dead," toward the final battle with Voldemort, much like he carried Harry when he was a baby away from the battle with Voldemort.
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Madame Librarian - Jul 23, 2007 8:31 am (#112 of 340)
About that Neville...wow!
Don't you think that if for some reason, Voldemort had "chosen" him instead of Harry as The One, and Neville had survived an AK like Harry did, that Neville, too, would have done as much as Harry did to prevail over Evil? I think JKR was giving us a little hint of that by allowing Neville the important role as the slayer of Nagini.
Also, maybe Neville originally was intended to be the later-in-life magic character, but it just wouldn't have worked out to have him show his skill too late. In OoP Dumbledore's Army was the best place to have him "get" the magic.
(I know these things really need to in separate threads now, but it's hard to give up looking at the big picture, big impact this 7th book has had. The dust, as it were, has not settled enough yet.)
Ciao. Barb
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Denise P. - Jul 23, 2007 8:35 am (#113 of 340)
Regarding Loopy Lupin asking why the trio didn't apparate out of some hairy spots. If you recall, early in the book the reason that there were 7 Potters was because apparation and the Floo network were being monitered. If the trio had apparated, they would have been captured. Of course, I could be wrong and it just could be because they are new to apparation still that they didn't think to do it.
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wynnleaf - Jul 23, 2007 8:58 am (#114 of 340)
I started DH with a lot of trepidation, completely unsure whether I'd like any of it or not. Most of it was an excellent read and I was very pleased with that aspect.
One thing that I emphasized a lot in predictions was that someone would betray either the Order or Harry's trust. Someone would intentionally or inadvertently betray the Order. Someone to whom Harry had given trust would turn out to be quite different from what Harry thought.
What amazed me is who those characters were. Mundungus fills the technical role of inadvertently betraying the Order when Snape was able to use him to set the date and manner of Harry's Privet Dr. departure, thereby giving those details to Voldemort.
But that it was Dumbledore who would be the one Harry trusted, who was not at all as he seemed, was quite a surprise to me.
Mrs Brisbee, I found your remarks to be very interesting. There's a lot that I agree with in your posts. Dumbledore was definitely a very controlling person. He was not only manipulative, but was determined to retain control of everything as much as possible.
Regarding the portrait... I think that JKR intended, in spite of any past remarks about the nature of portraits, for Dumbledore's portrait to embody his thoughts and intents just like the real Dumbledore. Snape certainly appeared to be taking orders from the portrait just as though it was the real person. I don't particularly blame Snape at this point. Dumbledore was still keeping a lot back from Snape which Snape would have to assume was of paramount importance. Not knowing what those secrets were, I think he had to trust that Dumbledore (and his portrait), knew the best strategic choices and to follow his orders.
I was truly surprised that Dumbledore ordered Snape to kill him, long before the actual tower events where it probably was necessary for Snape to AK Dumbledore in order to protect Harry and Draco and get the DEs and Fenrir out of the castle. But Dumbledore had insisted on Snape killing him long before that situation arose. Why? Why not simply decide to die naturally? Or even to arrange his own death to appear natural, rather than to demand that Snape kill him? Yes, AKing Dumbledore did seem to put Snape even closer to Voldemort. But it appears from Dumbledore and Snape's conversation (apparently held prior to the Vow being made) that Voldemort was already trusting Snape with important secrets, like Draco's mission to kill DD, or LV's expectation to take over Hogwarts.
I don't think it was any mistake that in the same chapter where JKR was revealing Snape's true loyalties, she also had him directly challenging Dumbledore's actions. Up until GOF, Dumbledore did raise Harry up to die. Sure he learned later that Harry could, possibly, live, but prior to LV's taking Harry's blood, DD's expectation and even plan was that Harry die.
I'm still trying to figure out exactly what I think of Albus when all is said and done.
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Potter Ace - Jul 23, 2007 9:00 am (#115 of 340)
I guess I am going to have to eat a lot of crow over the the Harry is/isn't a Horocrux. With what we were given, I just did not think that could happen, but it is her world and magic after all so I'll just dig in with my apologies to HH11 and those of you who got it right.
Overall I'm left with an empty feeling in my stomach over the epilogue. I wanted to hear more about where they are now and what happened in the 19 years. I could have cared less that their were children but I think something like on her web page with the Wizard of the Month, just a page for each character to sum up their life.
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Vaughn - Jul 23, 2007 9:11 am (#116 of 340)
Well I thought the book was amazing. Does anyone have the exact quote about someone doing magic late in life? I wonder if this might not be attributed to Molly who suddenly is able to duel and overcome Bellatrix who is by all accounts a witch with abilities that are quite extraordinary. I do not think that Molly has really shown exceptional magical ability before now and then when her daughter was in a situation where she was in danger and indeed her whole family was in danger Molly was able to perform magic that she previously did not have the ability to perform. That was what I thought fulfilled the "magic late in life" thing.
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I Am Used Vlad - Jul 23, 2007 9:20 am (#117 of 340)
As much as I hate to admit it, I pretty much agree with everything Loopy says about the book.
Some thoughts:
Who exactly did magic late in life?????? Maybe Finn's idea about it being someone in the past was right.
The unknown Horcrux was, in a word, stupid. Talk about anti-climatic.
The Epilogue, in a word, sucked. I thought we were going to find out about all the surviving characters. The cool named of Draco's son did, however, almost make it worth it.
It was a great book, still.
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Thom Matheson - Jul 23, 2007 9:33 am (#118 of 340)
Wynnleaf, my thought about Snape killing DD had to do with his knowledge (as well as Voldemort's) of the wand. Knowing that Voldemort would need to kill Snape rather then Draco Malfoy.
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MoaningMyrtle101 - Jul 23, 2007 9:45 am (#119 of 340)
About the magic-later-in-life person: Ron spoke Parseltongue, didn't he? I think that might have been it.
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rassannassar - Jul 23, 2007 9:55 am (#120 of 340)
Yes, Ron spoke Parseltongue, but did not really understand it. He was just mimicking sounds he had heard Harry make when trying to open the locket. So that's not it.
Part of the reason that Snape killed Dumbledore was I think to protect Dumbledore from a slow, painful death. While we know that Dumbledore did not fear death, he was probably too proud to let himself die painfully, and out of pride decided that he would dictate the terms of his death.
Also, in regards to Snape killing Dumbledore, this had everything to do with the Elder Wand. Because Snape was not really defeating Dumbledore, Snape would not become the master of the Elder Wand and with Dumbledore's death, the power of it would be broken. Snape wasn't intended to become it's master as I believe it was stated, and the power of the Wand was supposed to be broken. I do not think that Dumbledore was expecting Draco to disarm him, nor do I think that he took that possiblity into account, and therefore did not realize that Draco could have possibly become the master of the Elder Wand.
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Solitaire - Jul 23, 2007 10:29 am (#121 of 340)
I wanted to see ... who was Head at Hogwarts.... Why, Grimmett, it just MUST be McGonagall, of course ... to be succeeded by none other than ... NEVILLE LONGBOTTOM!!! (Okay, well, that's MY fantasy, anyway!)
Esther, I completely agree that the door has been left open for more Wizarding stories ... but perhaps they will come with the next generation or focus on one of the other characters, with Harry in a more minor role. I agree with Harry--he has had enough trouble for a lifetime! I loved that thought that zipped through his brain when he wondered if he would be the same kind of godfather to Teddy as Sirius had been to him.
Holly, I agree about Hagrid. I was sure he was a goner.
DD's expectation and even plan was that Harry die. I do believe it was probably his expectation ... but his plan? I do not believe it was. If you look at what Dumbledore reveals--and withholds--after each of Harry's narrow escapes, it is clear that he loves Harry. I think that is why he kept putting off the inevitable moment when Harry must be told--and why he never gave him the full blow--because he hoped that some other option would present itself. Well, that's my opinion.
Vaughn, Molly has been doing magic since we first met her. Just because she has not been out dueling DEs doesn't mean she couldn't have dueled.
Poor Snape! (I never thought I'd say that!) He must have known by the time Voldemort killed him that Harry was most likely the master of the Elder wand, because I am sure Draco told him that Harry had taken his wand. Snape would have known, I think, that even though the wand that Harry took from Draco was not the Elder Wand, it was the fact that he had disarmed its owner which made him Master of the Elder Wand. If Voldemort had known this going into the final battle, he would have disarmed Harry rather than first attempting the AK ... and things might have ended very differently. No, Snape had to conceal that knowledge, in effect, giving his life to protect Harry and, once again, invoking the ancient magic.
Solitaire
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Steve Newton - Jul 23, 2007 10:30 am (#122 of 340)
There was lots to like in this book. The one scene which I found to be very moving is when they are at the Lovegood's and see what Luna has painted on the ceiling. Her 5 friends. Incredible, I wish we knew what became of her.
As someone elsewhere has suggested, the first chapter suggests that JKR is a disturbed individual.
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NickyJean01 - Jul 23, 2007 10:32 am (#123 of 340)
My hopes and dreams weren't neccessarily fulfilled but I can't complain too much she stayed true to form and didn't let anyone truly sway her writing ..
My pluses..
I loved the use of the griffen sword belong more then just to harry.. this made others important.. Ron's timely arrival and Neville slaying the 'beast' was awesome..
I completely loved molly coming in and taking out the evil woman.. it was unexpected and heroic and totally gave molly something then mother hen concern..
I actully loved the entire story of the Beedle Tales.. but felt it was actually unnecessary and not even used in my opinion..
I loved the ghosts of Hogwartz given a back story like that of the bloody barron and the lady in grey..
I was floored by Snape becoming headmaster .. absolutely floored.. the fall of the ministry and the WWII like radio programs with a password was just so great and I'm not one for war movies or stories but it gave a real air of realisim
I too felt the Tonks/Lupin were rushed.. they were there one minute married the next, child shortly after and then finally death all in what could probably be considered one chapter in length..
Oh and the malfoys.. talk about a 180.. Narcissia's love for her son, and Lucis calling his name during the battle I actually felt bad really bad..
The death of dobby is a plus for me because it touched me the way it should.. had me in tears just now typing about it.. the way harry dug the grave.. everything.. it just broke me a little..
Kretcher, who would have thought that I would like him.. I suppose it would be to much for him to have been touched by hermionie in someway.. too much too soon .. but his love for regulus was great..
My minus..
Can't say enough not enough snape..
I was really hoping that neither of my twins would leave and I really thought that the loss of George's ear was what would save them because surely that would be enough damage to our twins.. but alas no..
They really betrayed me with the death of snape, fred, tonks and lupin.. unlike dobby and even mad-eye.. it felt like a one sentence word.. no real closure.. no real emotion.. and I felt deprived..
The epilouge.. I agree with many.. I would have preferred something that went right down the line telling us what happened to whom.. because I just felt too much wasn't mentioned..
Finally, when they said someone unexpected would be a professor.. Neville really isn't that unexpected.. either as a DA or Herboligist.. that just seemed to fit... Luna would have been unexpect.. but whom I really held out for in the end.. picture this.. Snape as a ghost.. still a potion professor.. wouldn't do DA because of his guilt.. but as a potion master.. it just makes sense that he of everyone.. racked with guilt.. murder of many especially Dumbledore.. would have issue going to the other side.. but all of us knowing he was dead.. wouldn't we have been surprised to see that he had returned as a potion master as a ghost.. I'm sure it will be a fanfiction near you..
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KTO - Jul 23, 2007 10:40 am (#124 of 340)
Did'nt JK mention late in life magic before book six? If so, then I think she ment Merope and her use of magic to love potion Tom Riddle Senior.
KT
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Loopy Lupin - Jul 23, 2007 10:42 am (#125 of 340)
As much as I hate to admit it, I pretty much agree with everything Loopy says about the book. -- Vlad
Now you're coming around! And it only took about 3 years and 2 books to accomplish that. "Sucked" and "stupid" might have be a little strong for me regarding the epilogue and Harry as Horcrux. I'd tend to agree with you more on the epilogue thing. Harry as Horcrux is not without its problems however. Didn't Voldemort have to mean to create a Horcrux? He meant to kill Harry not to leave a part of his soul in him.
Oh, and when Hermione and Ron came back from the Chamber of Secrets, did they have a broom with them or something (don't have my book handy)? Otherwise, how'd they get out?
I think Denise is probably right with the "Why Didn't They Just Apparate" question. It also occurs to me that they were typically doing side-along with Hermione so they had to all get into position and so forth. Plus, now I think about it, they did Apparate out of trouble a lot eventually. They couldn't very well Apparate from Bathilda's house until they jumped out the window and got away from Naginia for example.
Speaking of Apparating, again, I thougt that one could Apparate just about anywhere if you had the place well in your mind. I would think then that LV could apparate to Hogsmeade from anywhere he might be but Harry was talking about LV having to get "close enough" after his trip to the Zombie Lake to apparate the rest of the way.
I wonder if Scorpius and Albus Severus will be friends?
EDIT--- Well Merope wasn't "late in life" but that's a relative term I suppose.
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Holly T. - Jul 23, 2007 10:53 am (#126 of 340)
Loopy, yes they had a broom with them when they came back from the Chamber of Secrets.
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Ida-ho-Potato - Jul 23, 2007 11:05 am (#127 of 340)
I loved the book. If is my favorite in the series. I agree, I would love to know what happened with everybody else. Maby she will tell us through her web-site. You know another door opening or through her diary.
I also did not figure out who performs magic later in life. wait, could it have been Stan shunpike. Could he have been a squib before he went to azkaban? who knows, just a thought.
Harry lives yeahhhhhhhhh!!!
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So Sirius - Jul 23, 2007 11:19 am (#128 of 340)
It took me awhile to write this out, because I wasn't sure I even wanted to. I'm sad that the series is done and Harry Potter is virtually no more, unless she decided to write about the years between the final and epilogue and more about unanswered questions and other characters.
As far as book 7... hmmmm. There were things I liked and things I am still shaking my head over. It was predictable in some ways and out of left field in others. I felt it was painstaking at times to get through it. Every time I read "weeks had passed" or the like, I couldn't understand how there was this war going on, people were searching for these kids and they just sat out in hiding for the length of time they did. Sure, I saw at the end DD try to explain that away saying that he was hoping Hermione would slow them up, but still... and yes, I know they didn't have much but those convoluted clues to go on, but do something, go somewhere, etc. It was as though she used up a lot of pages to say something irrelevant, that could have been condensed into 5 pages. It's nice to have a nice long book at the final, but only if it's filled with something relevant and interesting.
It was an interesting, albeit confusing end, but I was expecting more. The room in the MoM or something.... maybe that's what the room or power from that room was in Harry's mind, who knows. Yes the whole DD and Snape stories were interesting, but I didn't feel, full.
I still can't figure out why the group listened to Dung about the 7 potter plan, when they arrived disillusioned and it was fine to do that, why not leave that way?
I still don't know why Hedwig had to die. It made me nauseous and I can't figure out the purpose of it. Dobby's death made me sad too, but I just don't get Hedwig.
I couldn't figure out how DD died, when he did in fact possess all the deathly hallows, until I worked out that he gave one of them away to it's rightful owner, Harry.
I thought it corny, honestly, that a lot of the jerks to Harry, had this great and meaningful turn around. Dudley, Kreacher, etc. Sweet and all, but c'mon. It just took being nice and kind to the elf and all of a sudden he was decent? All it took was LV, Malfoys lord to treat him and his family like dirt, the same way he treated others, to have a turn around.... c'mon. I see the morality factor, but it made a corny story.
All in all, I think Jo is the Madonna of writers. It's her and the publishers that I think are geniuses. The marketing, the way the books came out is genius. There are brilliant books out there, but who reads them over and over looking for clues and discussing them? I see kids in the future, reading the Potter series, liking them, but not finding it as discussable and incredible as we all have. I truly believe the lack of not having all the answers, not having the closure, made it perhaps greater than it truly was.
All and all, I have loved the series, I don't regret reading them as voraciously as I have nor should I feel duped by a brilliant marketing ploy and I feel that the characters are part of me now, but I thought book 7 could have been told in 400 less pages and maybe i'll read it again at some point and change my mind and see what I was missing in all the fluff, but that's my view for now.
Jo is brilliant, no denying it, anyway, she said some will either love it or loathe it. Frankly, I lean more to liking it, somewhere between the 2. My brother goaded me about her not answering any of my questions and I told him he was wrong, this book is 750 plus pages and it won't be something like, the kids sitting in a tent kind of thing, it will be full of answers, lol. Perhaps I missed something. Although it's her favorite of the series and although there are things I greatly like in it, it's not my favorite or the one I'd like to re-read again and again.
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Mrs. D. - Jul 23, 2007 11:47 am (#129 of 340)
I do have one nagging thought regarding Ginny of all people. She was never my favorite character but she had been blown up with the seventh child of the seventh child and how amazing of a witch she was supposed have become only to have her seem rather mediocre again in this last book.
I need to reread it but have to wait until my son is finished with it. I read so fast the first time through. I was shocked and saddened by the deaths of Hedwig, Dobby and Fred. I was sad for Mad-Eye, Lupin and Tonks but not surprised. I was very disturbed by Harry having been made Godfather and no real mention of him having raised the boy knowing just how alike they were. I really would have liked much more on that.
I agree with most regarding the epilogue. What I really wanted to know was what careers they had all chosen.
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Holly T. - Jul 23, 2007 11:57 am (#130 of 340)
I like it where Dumbledore is explaining to Harry that Voldemort underestimates things he doesn't value--house elves, love, children's stories. He is speaking specifically of the tale of the three brothers, but I think it also says something about those people who we all know who are scratching their heads and trying to figure out why we are so interested/obsessed with, crying our eyes out over "a children's book."
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Kevin Corbett - Jul 23, 2007 12:50 pm (#131 of 340)
All in all, I think Jo is the Madonna of writers.
I couldn't disagree more. Aside from the fact that I hate Madonna, I can't help but feel that the ultra-popularity of of the series has hurt it, not on an artistic level, but on the level of making it seem like this huge fad that must have no merit. I think the best comparison for this series are Tolkien's Lord of the Rings, which was insanely popular when it came out, went into a place were it was still quietly beloved, and was still able to come roaring back a few years ago. Or perhaps we can hope they'll be like the Narnia series, and always be hugely popular..
I also think there is a really key matter that some people are missing---the idea that Dumbledore always intended for Harry to die. I think it makes it pretty obvious that this was not the case, but Harry would have to believe it to be---that if Harry willingly sacrificed his life to save the world from Voldemort, he would be able to come back after the (I have a new term I've invented) "scarcrux" had been destroyed, because that would invoke the power of Lily's sacrifice which, since LV took Harry's blood, lived in both of them.
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Deb Zawacki - Jul 23, 2007 4:46 pm (#132 of 340)
Although Lupin's death saddened me, for his character, to die in battle fighting for the greater good, side by side with those he loved and cared for was a far more preferable one to immortality as a werewolf. He was sad not to watch his son grow up--but he was now free of his earthly curse; and with Tonks and his two best friends, moved on.
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rassannassar - Jul 23, 2007 8:35 pm (#133 of 340)
OK, so there are a lot of questions that still haven't been answered, but I'm OK with that because even if Jo doesn't write another book, that just means that we can all imagine what we want and be happy with it. Also, I think all of the books were brilliant, and I know it's not like the Lord of the Rings, which actually did take a couple of years to become fairly popular, but never matched (obviously based on the fact that DH has already set records) Harry Potter. It's kind of sad to think that all we have to look forward to are the movies, which I sure hope don't get butchered as badly as Prisoner of Azkaban, Goblet of Fire, and Order of the Phoenix were. There are somethings they'll have to do in HBP to fix some of the shortcomings of the first five movies, in order to be ready for DH. And when it comes time for the movie for Deathly Hallows, it better be about three hours, because anything less than that just won't be sufficient to cover everything that needs to be covered. Anything less than about three hours won't do it justice. Personally, I'm more excited about the remakes that are bound to be done in about 20 or 30 years. And when they are done, I'm sure they'll be far better than the movies we have now. I stand by what I've been saying for a while now: the movies should not have been made until the series was complete and they knew what was important and needed to be kept in. I mean, they wanted to cut our Kreacher from the 5th movie but Jo told them he had to be in there.
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Solitaire - Jul 23, 2007 10:28 pm (#134 of 340)
So, let me get this straight ... Stan Shunpike really is a Death Eater? Has he been one all along, or is he just under the Imperius Curse? Harry describes his face as "strangely blank," yet he IDs Harry as the real HP.
Solitaire
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Amelie Ferrer - Jul 24, 2007 2:06 am (#135 of 340)
Edited by Catherine Jul 24, 2007 6:50 am
Holly T - I completely agree with you about the comment Dumbledore made about "Childrens stories".
I also thought this linked in with the last sentence of that chapter "of course it is happening inside you head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?"
I imagine that if I had read that when I was a child I would have found that line magical.
Edited to capitalize the pronoun "I." We do not use Netspeak on the Forum, and ask everyone to use appropriate capitalization in their posts. --Catherine
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TomProffitt - Jul 24, 2007 4:26 am (#136 of 340)
Solitaire, I think Shunpike was an unwilling recruit, snapped up from Azkaban when the real Death Eaters were freed. Stan was more of a conscripted soldier than a convert.
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wolfgrl - Jul 24, 2007 6:06 am (#137 of 340)
So, who showed magical ability late in life? Did I just miss it? Is this discussed someware?
Wolfgrl
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NickyJean01 - Jul 24, 2007 6:14 am (#138 of 340)
Solitaire, Stan was under the imperal curse.. that's why Harry refused to even stun him.. because he would have died from the fall ..
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Shauna Henry - Jul 24, 2007 7:31 am (#139 of 340)
I think the person that did magic late in life was Dudley. Not magic like everyone is thinking, but the magic of love - which Dumbledore had said in previous books was a very powerful thing. (And one that Voldemort did not understand).
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So Sirius - Jul 24, 2007 9:09 am (#140 of 340)
Perhaps the person to do magic later in life is Harry's son. I realize that it was taken to refer to someone already with us that will show magic later, and I personally think it meant Neville. Of course he was already doing magic, but at such a substandard level. Maybe she was referring to how he really came into his own later on. But what if we just assumed that concept and her idea all along was regarding their child?
Then again, maybe she just didn't include it at all, in book 7.
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mollis - Jul 24, 2007 9:38 am (#141 of 340)
I think that the thought of Dudley doing a "different kind" of magic is an interesting thought, but personally, I think the person to do magic late in life was Ariana. Ariana makes sense to me in that she exhibited magic at the normal time in life, but then bottled it all up after being attacked. She only did magic intentionally again when her brothers were fighting Grindelwald in front of her. She wanted to help, and ended up getting killed. I think that would fit the "desperate circumstances" that I believe JKR referred to when she make the statement.
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I Am Used Vlad - Jul 24, 2007 9:55 am (#142 of 340)
Loopy, I was mad about the diadem being a Horcrux, not Harry. This could be because I have no idea what a diadem is, or maybe I was just expecting something a bit more exciting than talking to a ghost. Perhaps "stupid" was a bit strong.
I stand by what I said about the Epilogue, however.
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Kevin Corbett - Jul 24, 2007 11:03 am (#143 of 340)
Although this should perhaps go in the Chapter 31 folder, I can't help putting it here:
This is going to sound incredibly nitpicky, but Ravenclaw's Diadem should not have read "Wit beyond measure is man's greatest treasure". Not because of the motto, but because no such language (i.e., English---and its written in 20th century English) existed yet to write in in. But, instead of complaining about this woeful historical inaccuracy as I usually to, I instead amended it by rendering the phrase in Latin---at not just rendering it, but putting it into Latin hexameter, the stuff of the Aeneid of Virgil or the Metamorphoses of Ovid, just the stuff that would have appealed to any 10th Century mind, be they muggle or magic. I admit this isn't a very good hexameter, but I struggled over it for hours to make it fit, which is harder than you can imagine. Here it is:
Ingenium extra modum humanis optima opes est.
If you want to read it as I intended it, that is, in hexameter, it should go like this "in-ge-ni~ ex-tra mod~ hum-an-is op-ti-m~ op-es est. The bold syllables should not be more heavily accented, as in English verse, but held longer. You might also notice that there are a lot of "elisions" where certain syllables aren't pronounced in certain situations---if anyone is really as pedantic as I am, I'd be happy to explain. I just wanted to honor Ravenclaw with the best line of hexameter I could muster. I hope she would admire the effort, if not the result.
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mollis - Jul 24, 2007 12:03 pm (#144 of 340)
Yeah, I had a hard time with the diadem as a horcrux as well. I think my biggest problem with it was just how widely it was predicted in the threads. And it was just too easy. I guess it had to be easy at that point because they were running out of time, but not only did Harry know where to find it, by the time he got it out of the ROR, it was already destroyed by that fire! They could have at least had to stab it with the Basilisk fang.
BTW - don't snakes only have 2 fangs that contain venom? How could they have possibly come up with arm loads of fangs?!?
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gankomon - Jul 24, 2007 12:31 pm (#145 of 340)
The diadem was easy, once one had accustomed themself to JKR's way of introducing important artifacts. However, I thought that it was a wonderful way to not only introduce the Ravenclaws and that it was fun that Crabbe inadvertently destroyed the piece of soul concealed within the diadem even as he tried to help Voldemort by killing Harry & Company.
I am enthralled by the idea that Dudley's belated appreciation of Harry was the "late-in-life" magic JKR mentioned. Love is indeed a powerful force. However, I find it more probable that this was one of the pieces that ended up on the cutting floor along with Dean Thomas' backstory and the Weaseley cousin. Deathly Hallows is an extremely large book, and there were obviously some pieces that had to be cut.
I suspect that there was much more detail in the original draft of the Battle of Hogwarts, and the list of the fifty who died might contain some very familiar names. Likewise, I strongly suspect that the Ford Anglia ended up on the cutting floor. Hopefully JKR will write the encyclopedia of the Potterverse and provide us the missing details we are so eager for- and flesh out the epilogie while she's at it. What do the Trio do for a living???
PS- mollis, I seem to recall that in Book Two, the Basilisk was described as having a mouth filled with fangs. So that would explain where they got the rest of the fangs from.
Regards,
gankomon
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M A Grimmett - Jul 24, 2007 12:42 pm (#146 of 340)
We get our wish!! JRK will write an encyclopedia--so hopefully all the backstories we could ever want! This reconciles me to the epilogue. On msn.com...
The encyclopedia would include back stories of characters she has already written but had to cut for the sake of narrative arc (?I've said before that Dean Thomas had a much more interesting history than ever appeared in the books?), as well as details about the characters who survive ?Deathly Hallows,? characters who continue to live on in Rowling?s mind in a clearly defined magical world.
Hogwarts, for example, would have a new headmaster (?McGonagle was really getting on a bit?), and Rowling said she can see Harry going back to ?give lectures on Defense Against the Dark Arts.? That class, by the way, would be led by a permanent professor since Voldemort?s death broke the jinx he placed on the position which didn?t allow a teacher to stay for more than a year.
Rowling offered up these details freely to Vieira and the 14 fans who asked her questions at Edinburgh Castle in Scotland on Tuesday. In fact, now that she is now longer burdened with having to guard the secrets of book seven, Rowling seemed to delight in discussing her plot choices and clearing up the mysteries that have previously surrounded the books.
The character Rowling couldn?t bear to kill One of the big stories that has been floating among fans for over a year is that one character gets a reprieve from death, while two others Rowling didn?t intend to kill end up dying in ?Deathly Hallows.?
?Mr. Weasley, he was the person who got a reprieve,? Rowling said. ?When I sketched out the books, Mr. Weasley was due to die in Book Five.?
Instead, another father in the book dies in the Battle of Hogwarts.
Even though Rowling couldn?t bear to kill off Arthur Weasley, Rowling said every character was extremely difficult for her. Given the blood bath that is ?Deathly Hallows,? the writing of it was bound to be an emotional roller coaster.
But nothing in the entire process of the series was more difficult than writing the scene when Harry, accompanied by his deceased lost loved ones ? including his parents James and Lily and his godfather Sirius ? walks into the forest with the intent of sacrificing his life in the name of defeating Voldemort, Rowling said, adding it is her favorite passage in all seven books.
?I didn't cry as I was writing (that chapter), but when I finished writing, I had enormous explosion of emotion and I cried and cried and cried,? Rowling said.
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Mudblood Proud - Jul 24, 2007 1:04 pm (#147 of 340)
I'm so glad to know there's a chance of finding out all the things so many want to know but were not part of the epilogue. The whole book read so well and powerfully, and then the epilogue came and I had a sudden feeling of a let-down, or anti-climax. It seemed so "flat" after the previous chapter. My curiosity not only covers what the characters are doing, but strange things like what happened to the Dementors? Do they still exist? If not, how did they cease to exist?
I also have a "what about that scene" question. Like...at the time of the second movie, I read that the dungeon scene with Percy was due to be edited out but JKR insisted it remain because it was important. Maybe I?ve gotten so caught up in the action of each book that I missed where the importance of that scene was explained because I still don?t know.
There?s usually not too much that I feel could or should be left out of the movie version, but I think the epilogue would just be a waste of film time. The last chapter before the epilogue "feels" like the end of the book. For all intents and purposes (intents and purposes being who lives, who dies, and can you foresee a happy world), that?s where the story ends. Ron and Hermione are already together; Harry only stopped seeing Ginny because of Voldemort; everyone else (who's still alive) is going to have a happier future...OK, maybe not some of the Death Eaters, but everyone we care about. Especially with the way the books are cut down to fit a specified movie time format, it seems to me that everything else in the book is so much more important and should be included. An epilogue just a few years later might have been easier to flesh out than trying to quickly wrap up 19 years of living. I hope I didn?t just commit a sacrilege. It?s only my little opinion, so please don?t send a dementor after me (if they still exist).
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Tazzygirl - Jul 24, 2007 3:02 pm (#148 of 340)
I also loved this book! The emotion in it... wow. I have never felt so much emotion in a book before. I can't wait to restart the series over again! I am going to start the second re-read of DH today though.
I skimmed a majority of all the posts here, all very thoughtful!
I was a little confused over what character performed magic late in life. After thinking on it for the last day or so, I am now thinking it was Trelawney- she never performed magic in front of the students before (or at least from what I can recall...?). Then during the battle she was causing her crystal balls to launch themselves faster at the various Death Eaters.
oh- one minor little thing that I noticed in the books, wanted to see if any of you noticed too. In the movie OotP, there was a scene where the Barman (aka Aberforth) of the Hogs Head had a goat in the bar when Harry and the gang go in to discuss the DA. In DH, his patronus was a goat. Wonder if that was on purpose, or just a weird coincidence?
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The giant squid - Jul 24, 2007 3:17 pm (#149 of 340)
Deathly Hallows is an extremely large book, and there were obviously some pieces that had to be cut.--gankomon
Why? OotP was 111 pages longer than DH. I can't speak for everyone, but I'm sure a lot of you will agree that they'd have been willing to read another 111 pages in the last Harry Potter book.
Tazzy: Didn't Trelawny reparo a teacup that Rob broke? Or was that someone else?
--Mike
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Weeny Owl - Jul 24, 2007 3:26 pm (#150 of 340)
I think it was Neville who broke it, Mike, but close enough.
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Denise P. - Jul 24, 2007 3:28 pm (#151 of 340)
I recall seeing many advertisements for DH that said 784 pages. Do we know what happened to the missing 25 pages?
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Tazzygirl - Jul 24, 2007 3:30 pm (#152 of 340)
Squid Mike: Tazzy: Didn't Trelawny reparo a teacup that Ron broke? Or was that someone else?
Quoted from PoA (Scholastic, paperback edition, page 105): Professor Trelawney swept over to him (Neville) holding a dustpan and brush and said "One of the blue ones, then, dear, if you wouldn't mind...thank you...".
I think if there was a reparo moment, one of the students did it. Anyone else know of a quote/moment in the book Trelawney could have used magic?
EDIT: Oooh, Denise- I didn't even think of the missing pages! I wonder what happened??
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NFla Barbara - Jul 24, 2007 5:57 pm (#153 of 340)
I also had mixed feelings about the epilogue...it was not my favorite part of the book, at all, and yet the more I thought about it the more I thought it made sense not to try to cover too much ground.
Hermione/Ron and Harry/Ginny were no surprise (the surprise would have been some other pairing for any of them).
I think I was hoping for an epilogue that took place closer in time to the last chapter, perhaps even at Hogwarts, to get a glimpse of the rebuilding that would have to take place (in both tangible and intangible ways). I really wanted some mention of Fred.
The nuggets that the epilogue added for me that I don't think were necessarily obvious from the last chapter are (1) Harry and Draco nodding to each other, and (2) Albus Severus. Both of those speak, in different degrees, to reconciliation and forgiveness.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 24, 2007 6:32 pm (#154 of 340)
They were probably edited out of final draft and were the reason why J.K Rowling made her statement about a Harry Potter encyclopedia.
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Kevin Corbett - Jul 24, 2007 8:26 pm (#155 of 340)
As I lay in bed tonight, I came to a terrible realization: my translation of "Wit beyond measure is man's greatest treasure" into what I believed sparkling Latin hexameter was grammatically wrong. I had:
Ingenium extra modum humanis optima opes est
Now I realize how absurd I've been, because I forgot, in my desire to make the meter fit, that "opes" although singular in it meaning of "wealth" or "treasure" in this case, was plural in form, and thus its it's modifier should be "optimae" instead of "optima", which would completely ruin the hexameter because of the dipthong ending "ae" being long, which would kill my needed dactyl. O, the folly of youth!
But despair not, for I have found a solution. The new translation:
Ingenium extra modum humanis optima gaza est
"Gaza" is actually even better, meaning "treasure" much more specifically than "opes" while still being singular. The only change from the reading above is that there is no elision in "optima" and there is an elision between "gaza" and "est" (read as "gaz~ est).
I realize now that the reason everyone ignored that post was your obvious disgust with my shoddy Latin prosody, not because you didn't care about a translation of a fictional motto into a dead language in a poetic form that nobody else is familiar with. It will not happen again, I assure you.
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Pamzter - Jul 24, 2007 10:13 pm (#156 of 340)
I liked the epilogue having a different feel from the rest of the book - it clearly delineates the difference between how the world was and how it now is (or is it "will be"?.
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Frank Giordanella - Jul 25, 2007 5:30 am (#157 of 340)
Hello everyone. I am a longtime lurker (years) and first time poster. All of you have given me a great deal of enjoyment reading your posts and I am going to try and reciprocate.
I think that I may have an answer for the person who uses magic later in life. I believe that it's Ted Tonks. In Chapter 5 (page 64 of the US Edition), Harry wakes up after his crash when escaping from Privet Drive. During that crash. Harry lost a tooth and broke bones. When he wakes up, Harry notes that his tooth has regrown and his bones have been healed. Ted Tonks then introduces himself and says that he fixed Harry's tooth, ribs and arm. The only way that Ted could have done that (especially regrow the tooth is with magic), which means that Ted is no longer a Muggle. Subtle, but that's JKR for you.
Note: I had a bit of a problem registering so I used my real name because I wanted to quickly post my opinion about Ted Tonks. I'm in the process of trying to register my preferred user name of "Weasley Rex". Hopefully you will see later posts with my new user name.
Denise - Thanks for your help in the reistration process.
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Catherine - Jul 25, 2007 6:17 am (#158 of 340)
Frank,
Ted Tonks was a Muggle-born, not a Muggle.
Welcome to posting on the Forum!
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Loopy Lupin - Jul 25, 2007 6:34 am (#159 of 340)
Loopy, I was mad about the diadem being a Horcrux, not Harry. This could be because I have no idea what a diadem is, or maybe I was just expecting something a bit more exciting than talking to a ghost.-- Vlad
Ohhhhhhh! Nevermind!
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Frank Giordanella - Jul 25, 2007 6:49 am (#160 of 340)
Catherine:
Thanks for your correction and the welcome. There I was congratulating myself for reading DH so closely, and I forgot to check Order of the Phoenix.
Frank
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wynnleaf - Jul 25, 2007 8:26 am (#161 of 340)
Deathly Hallows was a great read for about the first 2/3 of the book. Then we started to hit more and more long periods of exposition and explanations, some of them quite confusing. All over the forum and the net I'm seeing readers still trying to figure out how the Elder Wand plot points worked and why exactly Voldemort couldn't kill Harry.
There's a lot to like in Deathly Hallows. But it has got to be more littered with plot holes, dropped threads, and internal inconsistencies than perhaps all of the rest of her books put together.
Sirius, who ran away from home at age 16, went into hiding as the Potters were targeted, and was later imprisoned, somehow has his letter from Lily end up in his bedroom at Grimmauld Place. No explanation as to how it got there.
Snape, during the summer and prior to the downfall of the Ministry to Voldemort's group, is seen in his memories inside Dumbledore's office talking with Dumbledore's portrait. What was he doing there? How'd he get in?
Dumbledore insists that Snape needs to make Voldemort believe that he'd know when Harry was supposed to leave Privet Drive and orders Snape to arrange Harry's exit in such a way that endangers the lives of many Order members and brings about the death of one. Why? Why should LV ever think, now that the Order knew that Snape killed DD, that Snape should know when the Order planned to remove Harry from Privet Dr.? Wouldn't LV assume that the Order would change whatever plans it had that Snape had known about? It makes little sense to endanger so many Order members, not to mention Harry, for such a scheme. Besides, if killing Dumbledore didn't cement LV's trust in Snape, how would having Snape report the date of Harry's departure make such a difference?
Dumbledore told Harry he borrowed James' cloak only days before they died. That in itself is weird considering that the Potters were in grave danger and the cloak could help protect them. Even Dumbledore was suspicious that one of their friends might betray them. So why take the cloak at that point? But in Lily's letter she talks to Sirius as though they hadn't seen him since Harry's birthday and that she, Lily, was still having regular visitors there at Godrics Hollow - meaning they weren't under the Fidelius Charm yet. And she speaks of DD still having the cloak as though he'd had it for some time.
We'd been told repeatedly that Unforgivables were Bad. But JKR writes Harry into a situation at Gringotts that almost required Imperious, and then had no character make any comment about his using it. Later, she had Harry crucio one of the Carrows because he insulted McGonagall. Wouldn't a hex have worked as well? Or Stupify? And McGonagall says it's gallant.
Hermione tells all about how she Obliviated her parents and later says she's never done memory charms. Sure.
We were told at the beginning of HBP that Harry wasn't experiencing visions because LV was afraid to get in his head any more. Yet DH has hardly started when Harry is having visions again. No explanation for why they quit over HBP, but started again in DH.
We've been told by the Sorting Hat that the houses needed to unite. JKR said that the Houses represented the 4 elements, meaning they are all equal. But she showed not one Slytherin student standing against Voldemort. I guess you really can tell at age 11 who's going to be Evil. And it's about 1/4 of the population. Right. Perhaps if she'd shown some other reason for all of the Slytherin students leaving, it would have been okay. I realize that she had adult Slytherins do the right thing. Regulas, Slughorn, Snape, and Phineas. But to have every Slytherin student leave that school was, in my opinion, too much. It makes it look like all Slytherins supported Evil. Or at the very least, that no Slytherin students would stand against Voldemort.
When Dumbledore notes Snape's courage, he implies that it means maybe Snape was in the wrong house. Are we to assume that only Gryffindors are brave?
Harry, at the end, assures his son that they'll be happy with him and love him regardless which house he is in. But where and how did Albus Severus get the idea that being in Slytherin was so completely undesirable? James certainly thinks so as well.
And then there's the closure for the deaths. We see bodies brought in and laid out. Even Voldemort's body gives a closure around his death. Last we see of Snape, his body is lying in the Shrieking Shack forgotten. No body, no spirit, no portrait, no grave.
I don't think she gave us the resolution between Snape and Harry that the story had practically been begging for. She has Harry view Snape's memories at a point where he quite naturally isn't going to think anything about those memories except the part about his needing to die. Then later, he does reveal Snape's loyalties in public and to Voldemort, but we never get to see anything of Harry's thought process or change of heart toward Snape. The final words of "bravest man I ever knew," are great, but we can only guess at how Harry got from hating Snape to naming his son after him. Considering how extremely important this relationship was to the entire series, it seems to me a huge gap to have not addressed this.
There are so many more. That's only scratching the surface. The book, in my opinion, needed months more editing and revision. I can only assume that JKR was pressured to complete the book to fit some sort of film production schedule. I realize she can go back and change some of the more simple errors, but the plot holes are irreversible.
Did I dislike the book? No. There was a lot to like. Much was very well written. It reminds me of a beautifully knitted piece of clothing which is marred by lots of dropped threads and holes.
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Potteraholic - Jul 25, 2007 9:09 am (#162 of 340)
wynnleaf,
Wow! What a thorough overview and you're just scratching the surface!
You wrote, "Dumbledore insists that Snape needs to make Voldemort believe that he'd know when Harry was supposed to leave Privet Drive and orders Snape to arrange Harry's exit in such a way that endangers the lives of many Order members and brings about the death of one. Why? Why should LV ever think, now that the Order knew that Snape killed DD, that Snape should know when the Order planned to remove Harry from Privet Dr.? Wouldn't LV assume that the Order would change whatever plans it had that Snape had known about? It makes little sense to endanger so many Order members, not to mention Harry, for such a scheme."
I don't have my books handy (I'm on my lunch break at work), but doesn't Snape get all the information about the 7 Harrys and the departure from Privet Drive from Confunding (or casting some similar spell on) Mundungus? And how does Snape find out that the Order knows he killed Dumbledore? He doesn't know Harry witnessed the whole thing, immobilized by DD up at the Astronomy Tower under the invisibility cloak. When members of the Order and DA saw Snape taking Malfoy away, they didn't think Snape was a DE then, did they? Harry tells the Order about Snape killing DD, but how does Snape find out the Order is on to him? Who tells Snape? DD's portrait?
Sorry wynnleaf. Don't mean to unload all these questions on your doorstep! Have been wondering about these things for awhile and your post just reminded me all of a sudden. Just wish I had the books in front of me to check for myself right now.
On a lighter note, being a knitter myself (albeit one who hasn't knit anything this past year) I appreciated your knitting analogy, comparing DH to "a beautifully knitted piece of clothing which is marred by lots of dropped threads and holes.
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TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 25, 2007 9:14 am (#163 of 340)
Remember, Dumbledore loves knitting patterns too...
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Choices - Jul 25, 2007 9:18 am (#164 of 340)
Mrs. D - "I do have one nagging thought regarding Ginny of all people. She was never my favorite character but she had been blown up with the seventh child of the seventh child and how amazing of a witch she was supposed have become only to have her seem rather mediocre again in this last book."
Ginny is the seventh child in the Weasley family, but we do not know how many brothers and sisters her parents had. We know nothing of Arthur's side and we only know that Molly had two brothers who were killed in the last Voldemort war. Molly may or may not have had other siblings. I think Ginny is an accomplished witch, brave and gutsy, but I don't think we have been lead to believe that she is anything spectacular.
Tazzy, Trelawney is a witch and we have seen her use a wand and do magic (ch. 29 of GoF -"She waved her wand and the lamps went out."). I must conclude that JKR just failed to remember to give us that little piece of information about the late in life magic. :-(
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NFla Barbara - Jul 25, 2007 9:53 am (#165 of 340)
I think it was pretty daring to go after the sword. One way I felt short-changed in the book was seeing so little of what was going on back at Hogwarts while Harry, Hermione and Ron are on their journey. A chapter would have been nice instead of learning about some of these things just in passing. I would give both Ginny and Neville a "spectacular" for the year, even though most of what they did is left to our imagination.
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deletedaccount - Jul 25, 2007 9:56 am (#166 of 340)
"And how does Snape find out that the Order knows he killed Dumbledore? He doesn't know Harry witnessed the whole thing, immobilized by DD up at the Astronomy Tower under the invisibility cloak."
Harry confronts Snape about his killing Dumbledore while Snape was trying to flee Hogwarts.
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Potteraholic - Jul 25, 2007 10:05 am (#167 of 340)
Oh, yeah. Forgot about that! I just can't remember everything all the time!:kicking herself:
Thanks, Mezuzas.
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wynnleaf - Jul 25, 2007 10:55 am (#168 of 340)
I don't have my books handy (I'm on my lunch break at work), but doesn't Snape get all the information about the 7 Harrys and the departure from Privet Drive from Confunding (or casting some similar spell on) Mundungus? And how does Snape find out that the Order knows he killed Dumbledore? He doesn't know Harry witnessed the whole thing, immobilized by DD up at the Astronomy Tower under the invisibility cloak. When members of the Order and DA saw Snape taking Malfoy away, they didn't think Snape was a DE then, did they? Harry tells the Order about Snape killing DD, but how does Snape find out the Order is on to him? Who tells Snape? DD's portrait? (Potteraholic)
Yes, Snape gets that information from Mundungus. In fact, he created a lot of the scenario himself (or DD did), and passed it along to Mundungus. But what was LV supposed to be thinking? That Snape already knew that info from being an Order member? That doesn't make sense, because Snape knew that Harry saw him kill Dumbledore. It would have been publicized as well, after all. All those people didn't go to Dumbledore's funeral and nobody learn that Harry had seen Snape kill Dumbledore. The expectation should have been that any info Snape knew about the Order would have been changed as soon as they heard he killed Dumbledore.
So where was Snape supposed to have gotten that info? Well, I suppose he'd tell LV he imperiod Mundungus and got the info from him by legilimency. Fine. But why was it necessary to set up such an incredibly risky and life threatening situation just so that Snape could go back to Voldemort and say, "hey look, I got some more information. I'm still worthwhile as a spy." Because LV didn't plan to keep using him as a spy anyway, but instead planned to set him up as Headmaster of Hogwarts as soon as they took over the school. And DD knew this, as evidenced in his comments to Snape prior to his death.
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Esther Rose - Jul 25, 2007 11:08 am (#169 of 340)
Wynnleaf, I think Snape can say he got the information from Mundungus because he was one of the weak links in the Order. It was Mundungus that ransacked #12 Grimmauld Place after Sirius died, which, in turn, he was nicking Harry's stuff. The last interaction between Mundungus and Harry was done in a public place and it was not a friendly meeting. (HBP)
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Mrs Brisbee - Jul 25, 2007 11:12 am (#170 of 340)
I agree with you completely, Wynnleaf. The betrayal of the Order and the murder of Mad-Eye leaves me just feeling cold because of the pointlessness of the whole thing. I've got a lot of issues with it, particularly the whole thing being plotted by portrait Dumbledore long after the real Dumbledore's death.
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Phoenix - Jul 25, 2007 11:41 am (#171 of 340)
I agree as well. I hated to see Mad-Eye die, and Hedwig's death broke my heart.
But in thinking about it, Voldemort's favorites often fell out of favor as soon as they made a mistake. If Snape had been given the task of finding out when Harry was going to be moved (which it looked like, although I don't think we can say for certain), --if Snape gave Voldemort wrong information, it probably would have compromised his standing with LV, and he would no longer be privvy to Voldemort's most secret plans. And Voldemort may have given the school to another DE. This would have certainly endangered more students, and would have severed Dumbledore's connection. This could have potentially changed everything.
As much as I hate the deaths, its possible more could have resulted.
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Tazzygirl - Jul 25, 2007 12:40 pm (#172 of 340)
Choices: Tazzy, Trelawney is a witch and we have seen her use a wand and do magic (ch. 29 of GoF -"She waved her wand and the lamps went out."). I must conclude that JKR just failed to remember to give us that little piece of information about the late in life magic. :-(
Thanks, Choices. I was mainly looking in PoA, as that was when Trelawney was introduced. Now I am also thinking there is no character who performs magic late in life. hmmmm... **in sing-song voice** Oooooh, Jooooooo? Can you enlighten us, please?
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legolas returns - Jul 25, 2007 2:07 pm (#173 of 340)
I loved the book and thought it was brilliant.
Just a comment after reading the last few points-Didnt JKR say something about portraits not being the same as ghosts. They did not have the same abilities e.g they could repeat phrases etc and give a bit of advice but not the same as a real person. Its just that the Dumbledore painting seems to be so lifelike and still in command of everything.
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Mudblood Proud - Jul 25, 2007 2:21 pm (#174 of 340)
I think the confusion about the Elder Wand is due to the difference in the words ?master? and ?possession?. Draco became ?master? of the Elder Wand when he disarmed Dumbledore, but never possessed it because Dumbledore?s wand flew over the edge of the ramparts when Draco shouted Expelliarmus (Book 6, page 584, hardcopy). Voldemort possessed the wand when he took it from Dumbledor?s grave, but was never ?master? of it because he had not been the one to disarm Dumbledore. Harry became ?master? of it when he disarmed Draco, but could not possess it then because Draco didn?t have it. In the final duel between Harry and Voldemort, Harry tells Voldemort that the new master after Dumbledore died never laid a hand on the wand, that the new master was Draco, and that he (Harry) overpowered Draco weeks ago. Then Harry says to Voldemort ?Does the wand in your hand know its last master was Disarmed? Because if it does?I am the true Master of the Elder Wand? (note the words ?in your hand?). Which is why Harry?s spell to disarm Voldemort made Voldemort?s killing spell backfire. But until Harry disarmed Voldemort, he did not possess the wand. And now that I re-read this explanation, it sounds just as confusing, but it's the best I can do.
I think this is why some people also are confused about Harry having all 3 Hallows at the same time. He never had all 3 Hallows at the same time. Because he did not possess the wand until after he dropped the stone in the forest, he only ever had one or two at a time (cloak, then cloak and stone, then cloak, then cloak and wand).
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NickyJean01 - Jul 25, 2007 3:00 pm (#175 of 340)
When it comes to the Slytherins not uniting.. I find that believable.. I figure there were three types of people that would have been eligible to fight...
the first group would have been students like draco who didn't end up going back to hogwarts at all because the were "working" for LV or even didn't go bc they didn't want to be drafted to work for LV (their families just thinking its too dangerous to send their kids back)..
The second group went back BECAUSE they were in the family of DE.. Snape was incharge.. they were able to tourture those in detention.. their teachers were fellow death eaters .. they had every reason not to want to fight against their parents..
Finally, I'm sure there were a few that did go but didn't want to be involved.. it's Slythern nature to think only of themselves.. and if they were in danger they would have thought of their own family and themselves whether they were DE or not and just split.. They weren't the type to self sacrifice.. they are the type to strategically retreat..
I'm thinking that anyone in Slytherin that would have taken up arms wouldn't have really been a hogwartz anyway because they would have been sleeping with then enemy and if they spoke out might have ended up in a cell right next to Luna.. JMO though
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In reguards to the plan.. I honestly believe that though it had the greatest risk and read really well from a pratical stand point .. it might have been the only feesible escape option.. Snape was supposed to plant the plan into Mud's head and then report back that it was the idea of the Order's plan..
The reason people were in less danger and not more.. is because the Guards with them were the real targets.. Everyone who was pretending to be harry would actully not be attaked w/ intent to kill at least not untill they knew which one was which..
They went over the options of other plans.. such as the cloak being too small for good protection.. the floo and apparating not being feesable.. and if they just had arours protecting harry.. they would have had kill me bull's eyes on their backs because the DE only needed/wanted harry alive the rest were just peices of meat to the DE's
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Erika Gryffindor - Jul 25, 2007 4:29 pm (#176 of 340)
About DD portrait and how life like it was, I remember reading from JKR that whatever they had in their brain at the time of their death would remain with them. So it is possible that DD knew all of these things already, or guessed them, and proceeded with telling the info to snape to ensure things would still be followed
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Lisa Alba - Jul 25, 2007 6:03 pm (#177 of 340)
Hi Everyone,
This is my first time posting to this site so please be kind :-)
I saw a couple of posts questioning why Snape killed Dumbledore if he was going to die anyway. But didn't Snape make an unbreakable vow with Draco's mother? He had to kill Dumbledore so as not to die himself if he broke the vow. I always thought once Dumbledore found out about the vow that he started formulating his plan to have Snape kill him and thus forcing Harry to face his destiny.
Either way, I loved this book. I'm so sad there will be no more but I hope JKR follows through with the encyclopedia. That would just be the cherry on top!
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wynnleaf - Jul 25, 2007 6:17 pm (#178 of 340)
I saw a couple of posts questioning why Snape killed Dumbledore if he was going to die anyway. But didn't Snape make an unbreakable vow with Draco's mother? He had to kill Dumbledore so as not to die himself if he broke the vow. (Lisa alba)
The troubling bit is that it was before Snape made that Vow with Narcissa that Dumbledore asked him to kill him. In Snape's pensieve memory, we see Dumbledore and Snape discussing the situation the same evening that Snape helped Dumbledore with his hand. That had occurred prior to Spinners End. There was no unbreakable vow at that point. Unlike many of us (including me) thought, Snape did know exactly what Draco's task was, as well as the fact that LV had set him up ot fail in order to torture his family. Dumbledore and Snape discuss the alternatives and Dumbledore comments that the injury to his hand helped him to decide how to handle the situation. He asked Snape if perhaps LV didn't intend for Snape to do it after Draco failed, and Snape said yes. That was when Dumbledore asked him to go ahead and kill him.
No unbreakable vow at that point. At that point, Dumbledore could have simply told Snape that he'd arrange his own death sometime in the future. But instead he told Snape to kill him. That was why Snape was able to make that Vow later -- because he had already been asked by Dumbledore to kill him.
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Elaine2005 - Jul 25, 2007 6:57 pm (#179 of 340)
Here are my thoughts about the book. I thought it started off very well and quickly too. I loved it at first when Harry, Ron, and Hermione were on the run--there was so much interaction between the three friends. But then it started to feel constricted. I wish we could have known more about what went on at Hogwarts, with Ginny, Neville and Luna in charge of Dumbledore's Army. Once Ginny came onto the page in the battle for Hogwarts I was sorry that she didn't have a chance to shine. Harry and her mother were so busy protecting her. But off-stage I think she probably found a way to contribute.
As for Lupin--he doesn't come off very well when he is "on stage" so to speak. But in my opinion, he woke up with what Harry had to say to him, and by going back to his wife he began to face up to his fear. Too bad that he didn't get the chance to raise his son. But I didn't end up with any worse opinion of him, just because he was afraid and tried to run away from his fears. He ended up, off-stage anyway, taking care of business. Then, when he came to fight at the end, he died so that his son would grow up in a better world. I found it very sad, but understandable, that Tonks also found it necessary to come and fight.
I loved finding out the story of Snape's love for Lilly. But it was unsatisfying because it came after he died and there was no opportunity for Harry and Snape to talk together. I still have so many questions about Snape! He showed, yes, that he wasn't a bad guy, but did he really show that he was a "good" guy? Why did he love Lilly? Yes, she seemed to be a fabulous person, but I got the impression that he was attracted to her because of her great magical potential, more than for anything else. He became the headmaster of Hogwarts, in part to protect the students, as much as possible. I think that likely he did to some extent--but students were tortured!
I found the epilogue unsatisfying as well. I didn't mind finding out about the children, but it wasn't really clear to me which child belonged to which couple. It was a snapshot of life 19 years later, but without sufficient explanation of the intervening 19 years. I thought that it was interesting that Draco Malfoy showed up at the end. That made me wonder, were the Malfoys ever punished for there part with Voldemort? Okay, so they were a devoted family, or at least Narcissa was devoted to Draco. But does the fact that Narcissa helped Harry Potter at the end make up for all of the crimes of the Malfoy family? Draco got saved by Harry Potter once at the end, only to try again to rejoin the death-eaters, after which Harry Potter saved him again. Did he learn from that?
Well, I ended up loving the book, although it dragged for me in the middle. I thought that Harry finally grew up in this book. His decision to go after the remaining Horcruxes instead of the elder wand was a defining moment for him. Once Lord Voldemort learned that his Horcruxes were being destroyed, he reacted with such speed that I finally understood the need for the extreme secrecy about the Horcruxes.
The best part of the book was finding out a lot of answers. I wish there could have been more answers, but it was great to finally find out a lot that was hidden for so long.
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NFla Barbara - Jul 25, 2007 8:07 pm (#180 of 340)
I think you're right that the young Snape was intrigued by Lily at first because he sensed her potential -- despite himself and his prejudices against the non-magical world. But he was also a really lonely kid and the fact that she was willing to talk to him at all, as strange-looking as he was (in that ill-fitting outfit with the big smock for a shirt), had more to do with the kind of person she was inside than with her magical potential. I think her origins and lack of knowledge of the magical world let him feel comfortable with her in a way that he probably did not with a lot of other people. Later on, if he fell a little in love with her, that just means he had at least a little bit of a normal adolescent boy locked deep inside. : ) I love the scene where she calls James an "arrogant toe rag" and he gets a little spring in his step.
In the end, everyone needs friends. The only person in the book who doesn't is Tom Riddle, and he's the only one, I think, completely beyond redemption. (There are others who put themselves beyond redemption by the choices they make, like Peter Pettigrew, but I see them as different.) Poor Sev! (I also love that she called him "Sev.") But as much as I would have liked to see more of him in the book, I don't know that there's any way he and Harry could have had a conversation about all this within the time frame of the book (minus the epilogue). I don't see anything short of death making him divulge his feelings to Harry.
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Overview for Those Who Have Finished the Book (Continued)
Mona Sun Sep 25, 2011 8:51 am
freshwater - Jul 25, 2007 8:15 pm (#181 of 340)
Welcome to Frank and Lisa! It is always nice to have some new thoughts and new voices!
Kevin C....I must say that I was very impressed with your efforts to translate "a fictional motto into a dead language in a poetic form that no on understands"...truly! :-D I love knowing that HP inspires those kinds of connections and extensions in the fans. Well done! (actually I'm taking your word for that, as I don't know Latin myself!)
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Potteraholic - Jul 25, 2007 8:20 pm (#182 of 340)
NFla Barbar: "I don't see anything short of death making him divulge his feelings to Harry".
I agree. Sad, as that was, I don't think Snape would have been so honest with Harry face to face, of his own volition.
And as others have posted already (you know who you are ) Harry would have probably been suspicious of Snape's recounting of the past in a face to face exchange. Harry needed to hear a completely objective account to understand and believe everything and Snape's memories being replayed in the Pensieve were the only way to accomplish that.
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Madam Pince - Jul 25, 2007 8:28 pm (#183 of 340)
Wynnleaf, thanks for that great post that outlines some of the (many) holes in this book. I agree with you, and it is a great summation.
I had forgotten before, but wynnleaf reminded me -- I, too, think it is pretty inexcusable that absolutely not one Slytherin student sticks around to defend Hogwarts at the end. I felt JKR had spent a good bit of effort to get us to see that just because you were Slytherin didn't mean you were "bad," and yet, sadly "badness" happened all too often! I thought the scene on the Hogwarts Express in HBP with all the Slytherins was pretty promising -- for some reason I got the feeling that at least a couple Slytherins would turn out OK. But alas.
Gankomon, you read the entire book in three hours???!!! Wow! That is impressive! I know I'm slow, but three hours has got to be some kind of record! How did you ever manage to pick up all the details you've posted on so well? Wow, kudos. I'm in awe.
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Solitaire - Jul 25, 2007 9:12 pm (#184 of 340)
Sirius, who ran away from home at age 16, went into hiding as the Potters were targeted, and was later imprisoned, somehow has his letter from Lily end up in his bedroom at Grimmauld Place. No explanation as to how it got there.
This may have already been addressed, Wynnleaf, but I'm going to tackle it anyway. I think there is a really simple explanation. I'm betting it was a letter Sirius got from Lily shortly before their deaths. It seems to have been before the Fidelius Charm was put into place, since Bathilda was still visiting. Anyway, as one of the last communications he probably received from them, perhaps he tucked it into his pocket or wallet or something and kept it with him always. Perhaps he just took it out when he came back to 12GP with the Order. Maybe he took it out and was looking at it the night the Order was summoned to go to the DoM. It would have been out in plain sight, for Snape to grab. JM2K, of course ...
Solitaire
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Muggle at large - Jul 26, 2007 12:32 am (#185 of 340)
Hello all,
I have been reading this forum for about a year now, though I only registered to post last night. This is only my second post, so I'll start out on a positive note.
I absolutely loved the book. I timed it carefully and started re reading the entire series about a week and a half ago. When I got home from the book store at 12:45 a. m. I still had a few chapters of HBP left to reread and then immediately began on DH. Having done this I definatly feel HBP and DH seem like one big book in two parts. Very well written, in my opinion. Yes, there may be some flaws but I can live with them.
Now, on to other matters. Being so new, I hate to be the burster of bubbles (is burster a word?). Specifically the bubbles of Tom Proffitt (post #69) and Rassannasser (post #89) who both mention how wonderful it is that Harry never has to kill anyone.
In "the Seven Potters" during the ambush, Harry kills three Death Eaters. I don't have the book with me at the moment so I must paraphrase rather than quote exactly.
DE #1 - Harry takes aim at the middle DE and hits him with an impediment jinx. The DE is described as appearing to hang momentarily spread eagled in the air, from which I feel its safe to assume, he then plummets to his death.
DE #2 - Harry stuns another DE who is then specifically stated to have fallen from his broom.
DE #3 - Harry is randomly sending stunners back at the pursuing DE's and sees one fall past him, thereby, realizing he must have hit at least one.
The fact that Harry was fully aware of both what he was doing and the results of his actions, is demonstrated by his conversation with Remus in the next chapter. Harry tells Remus that to stun Stan, while hundreds of feet in the air would have caused Stan to fall from his broom and be killed as surely as if Harry had used Avada Kedavra. So, not only has Harry killed someone, he has done so intentionally.
Please don't take this as criticism. I simply wished to point out the missed details. In such a long detailed story, its quite easy to miss something like this. Especially as even though it is, I feel, a very important detail, it is almost glossed over, and never directly stated. Nor is it ever mentioned or discussed by any of the characters.
Well, that's all for now. I'm looking forward to actively joining discussions now that I've registered. Thank you for your time.
M@L
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Alex Thorpe - Jul 26, 2007 2:42 am (#186 of 340)
Something's just hit me about the cloak and Mad-Eye's eye... The cloak is supposed to be impervious to pretty much anything that would cause the wearer to be seen, but in GoF "Moody" can see Harry in the cloak with his magic eye... the same magic eye that Umbridge has on her door in DH, and then the alarm is only raised when Harry steals it. Surely it would have seen through the cloak then too?
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Steve Newton - Jul 26, 2007 3:51 am (#187 of 340)
Since Umbridge was elsewhere I don't think that there was anyone to see.
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wynnleaf - Jul 26, 2007 4:22 am (#188 of 340)
Something's just hit me about the cloak and Mad-Eye's eye... The cloak is supposed to be impervious to pretty much anything that would cause the wearer to be seen, but in GoF "Moody" can see Harry in the cloak with his magic eye... the same magic eye that Umbridge has on her door in DH, and then the alarm is only raised when Harry steals it. Surely it would have seen through the cloak then too? (Alex Thorpe)
One more example of a book littered with plot holes, dropped threads and inconsistencies. Oh for another 6 months to a year of editing and revision! I can only assume outside scheduling pressures pushed this book through too soon.
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NFla Barbara - Jul 26, 2007 5:03 am (#189 of 340)
Muggle at large, thanks for finding that scene. (I am beginning my re-reading this weekend and looking forward to answering a lot of my own questions!) I also think it's important that he killed DEs. He does not do it in a sadistic way, but the end result is the same. No one is completely unscathed in this battle.
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Phoenix - Jul 26, 2007 5:35 am (#190 of 340)
I still think intent makes a difference.
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M A Grimmett - Jul 26, 2007 6:41 am (#191 of 340)
Righteous! JKR spills about what she left out of the epilogue. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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Madame Pomfrey - Jul 26, 2007 6:57 am (#192 of 340)
Harry was polyjuiced to look like a ministry employee,so even if the eye saw through the cloak it didn't see Harry.
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Weasley Rex - Jul 26, 2007 7:16 am (#193 of 340)
Actually, intent is incredibly important in the law and can make the difference between whether a crime has been committed or not or between a serious crime and a lesser crime. However, I don't think that intent makes a difference with respect to causation. In other words, Harry's actions in the flight from Privet Drive (stunning people in the air which resulted in them falling to their deaths) caused their deaths. His actions killed them. That said, self-defense makes it entirely justifiable. This is why I never was too concerned that if Harry were ever forced to "kill" he would be ripping his soul apart because I always viewed kill in this sense as meaning "murder" and I could never picture Harry as a murderer.
By the way, I finally registered correctly and Frank Giordanella is now Weasley Rex.
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Suzan - Jul 26, 2007 8:20 am (#194 of 340)
Intent makes a huge difference, both in the eyes of the law and in the hearts of people. Also, stunning spells are not among the three unforgivable curses, which is a major distinction in Harry's world. A stunning spell that results in an unintentional death is not the same thing as the quite intentional Avada Kedrava curse.
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NickyJean01 - Jul 26, 2007 9:29 am (#195 of 340)
Thanx for the link.. I do hope we get more.. and yes I want to know the middle names of Harry's great great grandparents (kidding).. I wouldn't mind small stories about each of them ...
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halfmoon - Jul 26, 2007 10:21 am (#196 of 340)
I really, really loved the book, and I felt great when I finished it.
Actually I was kind of worried if the last book would finish like "...and then Harry awoke, who was 11 years old and had a scar on forehead." Because I thought I looked forward the last book too much, I had to prepare for the worst. But no! It was far exceeded my highest expectation! Thank you JKR!
Most impressive scene was Harry walking to the forest.
Most frightening part was Bathilda's house. I am 40 years old and I was scared to go to bathroom at night just after reading the chapter.
Most surprising thing was that the book contains a lot about Albus Dumbledore. And I had never dreamed he has his usual long talk even when he is dead!! I am not complaining, as he is my favorite.
Same for Snape. I am glad we could know a lot about his life. Even though it was not happiest one.
Deaths of Fred, Hedwig, Tonks, Remus, Madeye, Dobby, Colin, and even Rufas were heartbreaking, but I think they were inevitable. Otherwise, the whole battle against LV would look like "Home Alone."
Three things I did not get:
- wand masterships
Disarmed by Expelliarmus changes the wand's masters. Okay, then, lots of DA members must have lost their wands' power after the first meeting of DA with practicing the spell. Same must have happen after the duel club in the book two. No way.
- DD's plan for Snape
Did DD intend to let LV kill Snape? Because once LV found about the Elder Wand, there is no way for Snape to survive. Even if the Wand had lost its power as it planned, LV would not believe it until he kills Snape and see what really happens.
Meanwhile, there was a big chance LV obtains the Elder Wand long before he noticed about Horcrux hunting. In that case, Snape could get killed before LV starts protecting Nagini, and he may not able to tell Harry what he must do. So the plan must contains a way to keep Snape alive, but I could not find any.
- the Taboo
This is not so important but Harry says "Voldemort" aloud several times in Grimmauld Place.
I will start reading whole the series again with a new light of the last book. I am very glad I can enjoy the books for many years more, by reading over and over.
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Esther Rose - Jul 26, 2007 10:31 am (#197 of 340)
Yes, Harry, Hermione and Lupin say "Voldemort" in #12 Grimmauld. But it is unplottable so the snatchers would know the general area (ie they could stand in front of #11 and #13 Grimmauld Place which was what they were doing after someone said "Voldemort" at #12) but they would not be able to see or go into #12 Grimmauld Place no matter how hard they tried to. And it looks like they tried really hard.
The wand needs to be disarmed and claimed for the wand to have a new master or switch its allegiance. Had Dumbledore survived the AK and Tower drop the Elder Wand, Dumbledore would have probably remained the master of the Elder Wand. However Dumbledore did not survive. So for the remainder of the explanation I will just cut and paste what I wrote before.
On the night Dumbledore died Draco disarmed Dumbledore's wand via Expillarimus. However, Draco never "claimed" (ie. touched) the Elder wand. So, the only way the Elder wand would know it's true master is by whom ever owned Draco's wand since it was the wand that disarmed Dumbledore and no other hand had touched the Elder wand.
By Harry Stealing Draco's wand in the Malfoy Manor he obtained the Hawthorn wand that disarmed Dumbledore. And since Draco never touched the Elder wand, the Elder wand recognized only the owner of the Hawthorn wand (Harry at this point) as its master. So both the owner of the Hawthorn wand and the Elder wand was transferred from Draco to Harry in the Malfoy Manor. Had Harry returned the Hawthorn wand to Draco at any point during the "war" before he touched the Elder wand, then the Elder Wand would have once again recognized Draco as it's master.
Once Harry (the owner of the Hawthorn wand) touched (claimed) the Elder Wand at the end of Voldemort's life, the Elder Wand then recognized a wizard (Harry) instead of just the "owner of the Hawthorn wand" as it's master. At this point, Harry could have remained the master of the Elder wand no matter what happened to the Hawthorn wand.
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legolas returns - Jul 26, 2007 10:38 am (#198 of 340)
I would love to know what Hermione saw when she destroyed the cup. I can imagine an image of her parents getting tortured and voldemort saying he could stop it. I wonder if he taunted her about not being as good at magic as a pureblood. We know that shes brilliant but her boggart in POA told her that she had failed all of her classes. I could see her being really agitated an Ron having a smirk to himself and then stopping as soon as he remembers his ordeal.
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Madame Pomfrey - Jul 26, 2007 11:07 am (#199 of 340)
the Taboo This is not so important but Harry says "Voldemort" aloud several times in Grimmauld Place.
Which is why we see DE in front of the house.Grimmauld Place still had the Fidelius charm in place. While Snape was able to enter, I don't think Snape snitched on the Headquarters location,therefore,noone could enter.
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halfmoon - Jul 26, 2007 11:17 am (#200 of 340)
Thank you Esther Rose and Madame Pomfrey. Yes, probably that is why some DE's were in front of the house. However, other Order members' houses also got the Fidelius charm yet they got broken in, if I remember correctly. It seems Grimmauld Place has something more than the Fidelius Charm.
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Esther Rose - Jul 26, 2007 11:29 am (#201 of 340)
Edited Jul 26, 2007 1:04 pm
Fidelius Charm: Can't see people at the a particular location. Unplottable: Can't find location period.
The other houses may have had the Fidelius charm but the probably did not have their homes unplottable.
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Loopy Lupin - Jul 26, 2007 11:58 am (#202 of 340)
Well, Wynnleaf, I think that there will always be some plot holes in any book if you look enough and there is no doubt that there are some points that still aren't clear. But I don't know that I find fault in any of the same places as you.
Sirius, who ran away from home at age 16, went into hiding as the Potters were targeted, and was later imprisoned, somehow has his letter from Lily end up in his bedroom at Grimmauld Place. No explanation as to how it got there.
I don't see how this is a "hole" really. Sirius returned to 12GP and lived there for months before he died. It is not inconceivable that he had keepsakes that he brought with him back to GP and left behind.
Snape, during the summer and prior to the downfall of the Ministry to Voldemort's group, is seen in his memories inside Dumbledore's office talking with Dumbledore's portrait. What was he doing there? How'd he get in?
Other than talking to Dumbledore? The Office has demonstrated its allegiance to DD and Hogwarts in general, regardless of who was "named" as the Headmaster. So, I have no issue with him being let into the office. Getting into Hogwarts was surely trickier, but I would have expected DD and Snape to have worked out a way for Snape to be able to seek DD's advice via the portrait. Just because it's not exactly explained doesn't make it a plot hole.
Dumbledore insists that Snape needs to make Voldemort believe that he'd know when Harry was supposed to leave Privet Drive and orders Snape to arrange Harry's exit in such a way that endangers the lives of many Order members and brings about the death of one. Why? Why should LV ever think, now that the Order knew that Snape killed DD, that Snape should know when the Order planned to remove Harry from Privet Dr.? Wouldn't LV assume that the Order would change whatever plans it had that Snape had known about? It makes little sense to endanger so many Order members, not to mention Harry, for such a scheme. Besides, if killing Dumbledore didn't cement LV's trust in Snape, how would having Snape report the date of Harry's departure make such a difference?
Good questions all, but I don't know that there aren't good explanations. It didn't cost LV anything to have DE's waiting on the day Snape said the move was going to happen. Perhaps LV thought Snape had used Veritaserum on someone or still had inside sources in the Order. (How Snape actually came to have the information in the first place might bear some explanation indeed since he had been on the rune since June.) In any event, if LV had any doubts about Snape's information they were erased when the Order did attempt to move Harry early. As for why DD would suggest this, Harry was going to have to be moved from Privet Drive at some point. Everyone understood this and everyone understood that it would be dangerous to do so whenever it happened.
Dumbledore told Harry he borrowed James' cloak only days before they died.
I don't see the problem with any of this paragraph. The Potters could have visitors all they wanted. The issue was whether the secret keeper told LV where they were. Everyone thought the secret was safe, but that was a mistake to be sure. This is not a plot hole I think, but just a rather serious mistake on DD's part.
We'd been told repeatedly that Unforgivables were Bad.
Yes, they are, but this was war.
Hermione tells all about how she Obliviated her parents and later says she's never done memory charms. Sure.
I don't remember the context in which Hermione says this. Oh, Catherine! Can you help.
We were told at the beginning of HBP that Harry wasn't experiencing visions because LV was afraid to get in his head any more. Yet DH has hardly started when Harry is having visions again. No explanation for why they quit over HBP, but started again in DH.
Perhaps LV didn't have as much control over his and Harry's "connection" as LV himself thought.
We've been told by the Sorting Hat that the houses needed to unite. JKR said that the Houses represented the 4 elements, meaning they are all equal. But she showed not one Slytherin student standing against Voldemort. I guess you really can tell at age 11 who's going to be Evil. And it's about 1/4 of the population. Right. Perhaps if she'd shown some other reason for all of the Slytherin students leaving, it would have been okay. I realize that she had adult Slytherins do the right thing. Regulas, Slughorn, Snape, and Phineas. But to have every Slytherin student leave that school was, in my opinion, too much. It makes it look like all Slytherins supported Evil. Or at the very least, that no Slytherin students would stand against Voldemort.
I don't know if this meant they all supported evil, but certainly none of them had any problem with cowardice. And, I don't think the Sorting Hat was ever about determining who was evil or not at age 11. It only determined who belonged in what house; you draw your own conclusions after that based on the person's actions.
When Dumbledore notes Snape's courage, he implies that it means maybe Snape was in the wrong house. Are we to assume that only Gryffindors are brave?
And if we were, then "So what?"
Harry, at the end, assures his son that they'll be happy with him and love him regardless which house he is in. But where and how did Albus Severus get the idea that being in Slytherin was so completely undesirable? James certainly thinks so as well.
He could have gotten the idea from any one or all of this relatives who were all in Gryffindor. I think it was a nice touch that his father assured him that he would be loved no matter.
And then there's the closure for the deaths. We see bodies brought in and laid out. Even Voldemort's body gives a closure around his death. Last we see of Snape, his body is lying in the Shrieking Shack forgotten. No body, no spirit, no portrait, no grave.
Ok? What is the point here? I'm sure Snape was remembered sooner or later.
I don't think she gave us the resolution between Snape and Harry that the story had practically been begging for. She has Harry view Snape's memories at a point where he quite naturally isn't going to think anything about those memories except the part about his needing to die. Then later, he does reveal Snape's loyalties in public and to Voldemort, but we never get to see anything of Harry's thought process or change of heart toward Snape. The final words of "bravest man I ever knew," are great, but we can only guess at how Harry got from hating Snape to naming his son after him. Considering how extremely important this relationship was to the entire series, it seems to me a huge gap to have not addressed this.
I suppose there are some things that are best left to the imagination. I think that the fact that Harry gave his second born Snape's speaks volumes about Harry's reconciliation with Snape much more effectively than 100 more pages ever could have.
The book, in my opinion, needed months more editing and revision. I can only assume that JKR was pressured to complete the book to fit some sort of film production schedule.
Hornswaggle. There would be no way that JKR could have written a book that pleased everyone. But, I don't see that anything you've complained about is a real "hole" in the sense that there is no reasoable explanation for any such "problem."
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Sparrowhawk - Jul 26, 2007 12:15 pm (#203 of 340)
Legolas returns, I don't think that Hermione found it nearly as difficult as Ron to destroy her horcrux, and this for a very simple reason (apart from psychological ones, as important as these might have been). The locket had a lot of time to learn some potentially useful information from Harry, Ron and Hermione, while they were carrying it and discussing or even quarreling in front of it. But this was never the case for the Hufflepuff cup, and therefore the Horcrux had nothing to work on (unlike the locket and of course Tom Riddle's diary, who had learnt so much from Ginny).
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Mrs Brisbee - Jul 26, 2007 12:23 pm (#204 of 340)
In any event, if LV had any doubts about Snape's information they were erased when the Order did attempt to move Harry early. As for why DD would suggest this, Harry was going to have to be moved from Privet Drive at some point. Everyone understood this and everyone understood that it would be dangerous to do so whenever it happened.--Loopy Lupin
If the Horcrux Hunt was so important, it gets me why portrait Dumbledore thinks endangering Harry, Ron, and Hermione is a great idea. Other issues with Dumbledore's arrogance also arise. He's dead. Dead dead dead dead dead. He might have been "the general" once, but then he died. He isn't "the general" anymore. Killing Mad Eye Moody was an act of ultimate betrayal.
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Sparrowhawk - Jul 26, 2007 12:42 pm (#205 of 340)
Wynnleaf, although many of the points you made are very interesting (as usual
) ), overall I tend to agree with Loopy Lupin and I think that, given time and after some careful rereading(s) of the book, your own conclusion will also come somewhat closer to ours.
For instance, you wrote: "We were told at the beginning of HBP that Harry wasn't experiencing visions because LV was afraid to get in his head any more. Yet DH has hardly started when Harry is having visions again. No explanation for why they quit over HBP, but started again in DH."
Loopy Lupin answered: "Perhaps LV didn't have as much control over his and Harry's "connection" as LV himself thought", but I think that there is another, simple and convincing explanation: DD's death, which must have had a tremendous impact on LV's arogant confidence that he was unbeatable, and that it was only a matter of time (and of finding the right wand for the job) before he would be able to kill Harry. LV was - once again - underestimating the real threat presented by Harry, and his temporary triumph made him forsake caution... once again.
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Esther Rose - Jul 26, 2007 1:00 pm (#206 of 340)
Also keep in mind, when the visions are most intense Harry had already entered into adulthood (or was close to entering adulthood) and therefore had the wizarding strength of an adult. Voldemort may have been able to keep the child Harry's mind at bay but the adult Harry's mind might have been too strong for him to practice Occlumency for very long. Especially during the times when Voldemort experienced intense emotions.
Legolas: I was not disagreeing with Sparrowhawk just adding to why the visions were coming on full force.
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Choices - Jul 26, 2007 1:00 pm (#207 of 340)
Muggle at large - "In "the Seven Potters" during the ambush, Harry kills three Death Eaters."
Harry didn't kill the DE's, the fall killed them. Harry did not use the AK and I doubt that he split his soul.
As for those who think this book is full of "plot holes", I think there is a perfectly logical explanation for each of these supposed plot holes. In my opinion, JKR has done an amazing job of keeping all the facts straight and tying up loose ends. I couldn't be happier with this book - even if it did shoot down some of my theories, it confirmed others. I am completely satisfied with it.
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NickyJean01 - Jul 26, 2007 1:07 pm (#208 of 340)
Choices.. I'm not by any means saying that harry was a murderer.. but he knew full well that by accomplishing stunning spells those people would die.. he made a concious and delibrate effort to save Stan by just getting rid of his wand (his signature move) which actually placed him in even more danger.. because he didn't want to kill Stan.. (or to die by his action).. so I think the point can be made that Harry knowingly killed them..
The argument can also be said in that vein thought that unless you kill someone with say an AK then the act of doing that kind of "evil magic" is what really rips your soul.. in which case you'd be right.. but what does that mean for Molly ..
bottom line your wrong the fall didn't kill them it was the impact.. LOL
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Choices - Jul 26, 2007 1:16 pm (#209 of 340)
LOL You got me there, NickyJean. It definitely was the impact that killed them. ;-)
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legolas returns - Jul 26, 2007 1:16 pm (#210 of 340)
Ester Rose-There is the alternative argument that things were going pretty well for Voldemort. When things went wrong Voldemort seriously blew his top. It would be hard to keep up occlumency then. So I am agreeing with Sparrowhawk.
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Loopy Lupin - Jul 26, 2007 2:02 pm (#211 of 340)
Killing Mad Eye Moody was an act of ultimate betrayal.
Well, DD didn't kill Mad Eye Moody. The Horcrux Hunters were always going to be in danger. DD had to trust that they would survive the various dangers that confronted them along the way. It is not as though they were to be kept under wraps until the went a huntin' down the the Horcruxes. The whole undertaking was dangerous business. There's no hint that LV had any doubts about Snape's loyalty, but providing this bit of information probably cemented LV's conviction that Snape was on his side. I know that Snape killed DD, but Draco was supposed to do it. That might have, ironically, caused LV to suspect Snape of disloyalty. The orders of LV had been disobeyed! Once Snape was proven right and the Ministry fell, I imagine that he maneuvered himself into the Headmaster spot so that he would be where he needed to be and where he could help protect students as much as he could.
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legolas returns - Jul 26, 2007 2:11 pm (#212 of 340)
I think Dumbledore had Harrys and all the students safety in mind. He wanted to make sure that Snape would stay in Voldemorts good books. As a result of this he would be made head and keep the students as safe as possible from the Carrows. Dumbledore said he would trust nobody else to give Voldemort information but keep back the essentials. Snape only told Voldemort the day that Harry was leaving. He told Snape to confund Dung-Voldemort was not expecting it to be as difficult to detect the real Harry thus keeping him as safe as possible.
I think Harrys escort would have been in danger regardless of when they moved Harry. The guard always knew that they were putting them selves at risk and they were happy to do it (except Dung).
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Mudblood Proud - Jul 26, 2007 5:04 pm (#213 of 340)
The Elder Wand did not have to be possessed to switch its allegiance. In the duel with Voldemort, Harry was already master of the wand by disarming Draco even though Voldemort possessed it at the time of the duel. When Harry disarmed Voldemort, Voldemort's wand, the Elder Wand, went "spinning through the air toward the master it would not kill..." to Harry. I don't know if Dumbledore would have remained master of the Elder Wand if he had lived after beintg disarmed by Draco. The history of the wand would indicate not, but then Dumbledore was exceptionally more powerful than other wizards so who knows. Of course, he could just disarm Draco in return.
I read the book the first time in one day, so I didn't notice all the aspects that reading the posts on this forum point out. I'm now re-reading it more slowly and seeing things I didn't before. There were some questions about who knew and how that Snape had killed Dumbledore. In Chapter Two, in the Daily Prophet article about Rita Skeeter's book, Rita says "Potter later gave evidence against Severus Snape..." so whether Voldemort/DEs believe it or now, the allegation was in the Daily Prophet for all to see.
Thanks for the link to JKR's interview about the "missing" parts of the epilogue. I hope there is an encylopedia because, of course, there are other characters about whom I'd like to find out more. Especially George.
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Madam Pince - Jul 27, 2007 12:05 am (#214 of 340)
Maybe I don't know the definition of the phrase "plot holes." Certainly I think there are a lot of things in DH that are not tied up as neatly as they might have been, and wynnleaf's list pretty much mirrors mine. There's no doubt there's many instances of these across the Forum (and we're a pretty detail-noticing bunch, too) -- the threads are full of posters scratching their heads and going "Huh?"
Yes, sure we can come up with explanations for almost all of them if we want to. Heck, we could just say "It's magic!" and that would technically explain it. I think the issue (for those of us that even have an issue -- bless you if you don't!) is that JKR herself didn't exactly point a clear path there for us, we are left to come up with solutions on our own. Some people love that -- it stimulates our intellect and allows us to sort of finish the story on our own -- heaven knows I myself make up enough wild theories to "fill in" parts that haven't been fleshed out. However, it's also possible that, say, a reader of mystery novels will feel "cheated" if the author neglects to provide us with a particular clue, and then springs it out at the end and says "The whole thing is solved by this one clue, which, oops, I didn't tell you about, or which doesn't match another fact that I told you earlier. But you can feel free to make up your own solution -- please do!"
As JKR said herself in a recent interview when she was speaking of people reading the last page first -- "It's not on." That's sort of the way I (and I believe wynnleaf as well) feel about some of these murkier issues.
But I am the first to admit I need to do a re-read. Perhaps that will clear things up for me. And I am not blaming JKR or saying she's a poor writer. It's obvious from what she said in her Today show interview that the entire plot is crystal-clear in her mind; after all, she's been pretty much thinking of nothing else for 17 years, which has me beat by a couple years! And she did say she'd probably write a follow-up encyclopedia someday -- she said (paraphrasing) "I know the answers to all these questions you're asking, and I'll be glad to tell you if you want to know."
It's like back when we were wondering how did Harry get the Marauder's Map back... JKR said in an interview with sort of a guilty laugh (paraphrased) "Oh didn't I tell you? He sneaked back into Filch's office and nicked it. I thought everyone would figure that out." Same sort of idea, but rather bigger issues, since some may be central to the plot resolution of the whole series. Anyway, yes we can find solutions on our own if we wish, but... well, I think you see my point.
Harry giving the name "Severus" to his second son is indeed telling, but frankly, I'd rather have had the extra 100 pages!
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Muggle at large - Jul 27, 2007 12:12 am (#215 of 340)
Choices,
The DE's in the ambush died of "Rapid Decelleration Syndrome" (House points will be awarded to anyone who can name the movie from which that obscure reference originates).
Seriously though, your argument that Harry didn't kill them, the fall did, is equivalent to saying, "I didn't kill him, it was the bullet that killed him. I only pointed the gun at him and pulled the trigger."
However, I never meant to imply that by defending himself in a battle, that Harry was ripping his soul. I was only pointing out that he had indeed knowingly and intentionally taken a human life, albeit in self defense.
Harry himself, in his later conversation, directly equates stunning Stan with using Avada Kedavra on him.
M@L
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Joanna Lupin - Jul 27, 2007 1:40 am (#216 of 340)
Hey, that was some read, huh? I finished the book on Wednesday (having started Monday and lived through two sleepless nights of lying in bed and racking my brain about what horrors would come next) and I found it extremely emotional. I howled with misery in several places (Dobby's death and funeral, Snape's misery, Harry going to the forest and Remus talking about his son understanding why he had died etc.) there was much less laughter in this book. Now, I mention it, what was George's ear joke about? I didn't quite get it.
I was awed by Neville and the DA - it was such a nice way to wind-up his character. The battle of Hogwarts was amazing!
I was chuckling somewhat how wrong we've been about the dragon and Snape's patronus!
Thank you JKR for such a delightful ride along the series! I'm still somewhat miserable that this is the end, but oh, well, everything ends...
Ok - I can't remember what else I wanted to add so I'll go and read some more (started re-reading yesterday).
P.S. - One fishy thing I noticed and not mentioned yet was the presence of muggle-born Colin Crevey at Hogwarts, or maybe he was summoned by the fake galleons as Ginny, Luna and the others?
P.S.2 - Houses of Order Members were put under the Fidelius Charm in the spring, wasn't it? And not earlier?
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mona amon - Jul 27, 2007 3:17 am (#217 of 340)
And then there's the closure for the deaths. We see bodies brought in and laid out. Even Voldemort's body gives a closure around his death. Last we see of Snape, his body is lying in the Shrieking Shack forgotten. No body, no spirit, no portrait, no grave.
I don't think she gave us the resolution between Snape and Harry that the story had practically been begging for. She has Harry view Snape's memories at a point where he quite naturally isn't going to think anything about those memories except the part about his needing to die. Then later, he does reveal Snape's loyalties in public and to Voldemort, but we never get to see anything of Harry's thought process or change of heart toward Snape. The final words of "bravest man I ever knew," are great, but we can only guess at how Harry got from hating Snape to naming his son after him. Considering how extremely important this relationship was to the entire series, it seems to me a huge gap to have not addressed this. (Wynnleaf post#161)
Wynnleaf, your post was interesting. I'm only commenting on the part I've quoted, as I've only re- read the Snape parts in the book.
All these bodies were already brought in from the grounds, and Voldemort of course died inside the castle. No doubt Snape's body was brought in afterwards and given due honours, now that everyone knows his true loyalties, but if she had written an emotional scene about it, the 'Albus Severus' part would have lost it's punch.
Actually I loved the way she wrote Harry's reaction to Severus' memories. It was wonderful (and heart breaking) to see the barriers that Harry had put between himself and Snape just go crashing in a moment. He accepts Severus instantly and totally. I never thought it to be this way. I was expecting a long drawn out and touching scene. But all we get is one thought about Severus as he marches to what he thinks is his death, acknowledging his affinity with him (and with Voldemort), and one triumphant declaration when he is face to face with Voldemort. He loved my mother. He wasn't yours. he was Dumbledore's. And that's all, till nineteen years later when we learn with a jolt and a pang about 'Albus Severus' and that Harry thought Severus was the bravest man he ever knew.
I must say all this worked beautifully for me. Anything more would have diminished the emotional intensity.
As for the plot holes, can I add one more to your list? In Snape's memory of the forest conversation, Dumbledore asks Snape if he's giving Harry more detentions, and that he will soon have spent more time in detention than out. But up to that point, Snape has given Harry only one detention. It is only later, to punish him for Sectumsempra, that he gives him a number of detentions.
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Mrs Brisbee - Jul 27, 2007 4:41 am (#218 of 340)
Well, DD didn't kill Mad Eye Moody.
True. Dumbledore couldn't kill anybody, because he was already dead. Dumbledore had made off to the great beyond, no longer around to run the show and coordinate the various forces and pass on needed information and make decisions of life and death for his forces.
Except for that portrait he left behind. It's a soulless entity, therefore the choices it makes cannot weigh on its soul. That Dumbledore could leave behind an imprint of himself that thinks it has the right and reason to make those kinds of decisions is unconscionable. How could he think his portrait was better than any of those living persons that had a stake in this?
Dumbledore knew for an entire year that he was going to die. He needed to get his affairs in order and make sure people were left behind who knew what was going on so they could carry on and tackle the things that effected them. The best plan Dumbledore, the leader of the Order of the Phoenix, could come up with? "Okay, Severus, you kill me to look good with Voldemort, and I better leave someone in charge of the Order who knows what's going on so-- hang on, I don't trust any of the Order. Let's just betray them instead so you look even better!"
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Loopy Lupin - Jul 27, 2007 5:12 am (#219 of 340)
Rereading last night, I came across the "Memory Charm Problem" that wynnleaf mentioned and I'd have to say I agree on that one. Perhaps there is a difference between "modifying" your parents' memories to forget you and the last 17 years and causing them to assume new identities vs. "obliviating" a Death Eater's memory of the last 15 minutes worth of dueling, but the books have never made such a distinction before and the former would seem much more difficult than the latter.
I'd be interested to see if like the Wand Order Problem or Flint's Extra Year, this bit gets modified in later printings. So, hold on to ye first editions!
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Madame Pomfrey - Jul 27, 2007 5:12 am (#220 of 340)
I have no problem with Harry, intentionally or not, killing DE.It is war on evil. Harry is not hunting down DE and killing them He is killing them in self defense.I think there is a big difference in killing in self defense and for the protection of others opposed to killing for sport (killing mudbloods}or killing someone just because they are in the Order etc. I seriously doubt what Harry has done would rip the soul.His was a rightous killing in my eyes.He tried to spare Stan who he knew was probably imperio'd and he saved the DE Draco and Goyle who he could have let die.
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M A Grimmett - Jul 27, 2007 6:13 am (#221 of 340)
I'd like to see a special "Author's Cut" edition of this book!
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Holly T. - Jul 27, 2007 6:40 am (#222 of 340)
My son is about halfway through the book and he got to the part about Neville, Ginny, and Luna trying to steal the sword. He said "They're reforming the DA, just like the others reformed the Order of the Phoenix. Oooh! Just like a real phoenix!"
I thought that was pretty clever.
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Choices - Jul 27, 2007 11:51 am (#223 of 340)
Muggle at large - "The DE's in the ambush died of "Rapid Decelleration Syndrome" (House points will be awarded to anyone who can name the movie from which that obscure reference originates)."
Come on - don't leave us hanging. Was it "Die Hard"?
I certainly know what you mean. There is just a big difference in my mind between "stunning" someone and using an AK on them. In the first instance there is a chance of their survival - someone might catch them or they might do a "shield charm" to prevent them slamming into the ground, they might land on a haystack (OK, it's remotely possible - LOL) whereas with an AK death is certain (usually). He gave them the possibility of survival.
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Scouting Bear - Jul 27, 2007 12:10 pm (#224 of 340)
I believe the person to use magic late in life was Voldemort's mother (the name escapes me at the moment). In the interview in which JKR states that someone will do magic late in life, she never says that it will be the last book. In HBP Dumbledore tells Harry how the Gaunt's treat the daughter and call her Squib and it isn't until they are gone from the house that she is able to perform her magic.
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Muggle at large - Jul 27, 2007 3:08 pm (#225 of 340)
Choices,
The movie was "Running Scared" starring Billy Crystal and Gregory Heines, much more obscure than "Die Hard". The two characters are asked how they thought someone who had fallen from a building died. One responds, "rapid decellaration syndrome?", the other, "Pavement poisoning?". On being told he was first drowned then thrown off a building Billy's character says, "Poor guy, couldn't swim or fly". I always remembered that exchange because I thought it was very funny.
I must back off a little about Harry specifically equating stunning Stan to AKing him. Just looked up the exact quote. "We were hundreds of feet up! Stan's not himself, and if I Stunned him and he'd fallen, he'd have died the same as if I'd used Avada Kedavra!...". The second "and" could be interpreted as allowing a small amount of wiggle room. However, Harry does knock three DE's off there brooms, one with the Impediment jinx and two with stunners. He Knows he caused them to fall with his spells. I believe some of his need to defend his disarming of Stan arises from guilt he feels over killing the other DE's. Again, I am not blaming Harry for killing or saying he should feel guilty. I believe any normal person would at least a small amount of guilt about having to take a life, regardless of the circumstances.
I'm of to continue my second read through.
M@L
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Chemyst - Jul 27, 2007 3:59 pm (#226 of 340)
I believe some of his need to defend his disarming of Stan arises from guilt he feels over killing the other DE's.
Harry had asked Scrimgeour to release the innocent Stan way back in HBP. It never happened. It is likely Harry felt bad because the DE's had gotten to an innocent guy while he was wrongfully jailed. Stan had been sent to Azkaban to make it look like the ministry was doing something. They ruined Stan's life to make themselves look good. Harry realized that Stan was a victim of both the Ministry and the Death Eaters, and would never have been there on his own.
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Choices - Jul 27, 2007 6:03 pm (#227 of 340)
I agree Chemyst, not that Harry and Stan were friends, but they were acquaintances and near the same age. I think Harry felt really bad for what had happened to Stan.
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Geber - Jul 27, 2007 9:46 pm (#228 of 340)
As far as whether or not Harry killed Death Eaters in the Seven Potters chapter, he didn't seem too concerned with knocking Death Eaters off their brooms, except for Stan, because Stan was not himself. I think Harry felt the others had a decent chance of using their wands to cushion the fall in one way or another. I also seem to recall somewhere in the book that if Dumbledore had his wand when he fell from the tower, he might have survived (perhaps the person thinking this never heard, or didn't believe, Harry's description of the event, so didn't know or about the AK.)
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Tazzygirl - Jul 27, 2007 10:44 pm (#229 of 340)
I was going to post this in the chapter for 'Dumbledor's Will', but then I thought there might be something that would give away what happens later on in the book. So now I figure I would post it here, as this is the thread that covers the entire book.
What did the words on the snitch mean ("I open at the close")? My friend and I were discussing it, and neither one of us could figure it out.
I just had a brainwave- does it mean that it would open when Harry figured out what the Deathly Hallows were, and he was getting ready to face Voldy the first time?
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Verity Weasley - Jul 28, 2007 12:21 am (#230 of 340)
Regarding the discussion about Harry killing Death Eaters on the flight from Privet Drive, I don't think we can assume that any of them actually died. In one instance it is mentioned that another death eater swooped to catch his falling colleague. There is nothing to say this did not happen for the others, or that they did not use their wands to halt their fall in some way.
Welcome to Frank and Lisa! It is always nice to have some new thoughts and new voices!
Kevin C....I must say that I was very impressed with your efforts to translate "a fictional motto into a dead language in a poetic form that no on understands"...truly! :-D I love knowing that HP inspires those kinds of connections and extensions in the fans. Well done! (actually I'm taking your word for that, as I don't know Latin myself!)
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Potteraholic - Jul 25, 2007 8:20 pm (#182 of 340)
NFla Barbar: "I don't see anything short of death making him divulge his feelings to Harry".
I agree. Sad, as that was, I don't think Snape would have been so honest with Harry face to face, of his own volition.
And as others have posted already (you know who you are ) Harry would have probably been suspicious of Snape's recounting of the past in a face to face exchange. Harry needed to hear a completely objective account to understand and believe everything and Snape's memories being replayed in the Pensieve were the only way to accomplish that.
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Madam Pince - Jul 25, 2007 8:28 pm (#183 of 340)
Wynnleaf, thanks for that great post that outlines some of the (many) holes in this book. I agree with you, and it is a great summation.
I had forgotten before, but wynnleaf reminded me -- I, too, think it is pretty inexcusable that absolutely not one Slytherin student sticks around to defend Hogwarts at the end. I felt JKR had spent a good bit of effort to get us to see that just because you were Slytherin didn't mean you were "bad," and yet, sadly "badness" happened all too often! I thought the scene on the Hogwarts Express in HBP with all the Slytherins was pretty promising -- for some reason I got the feeling that at least a couple Slytherins would turn out OK. But alas.
Gankomon, you read the entire book in three hours???!!! Wow! That is impressive! I know I'm slow, but three hours has got to be some kind of record! How did you ever manage to pick up all the details you've posted on so well? Wow, kudos. I'm in awe.
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Solitaire - Jul 25, 2007 9:12 pm (#184 of 340)
Sirius, who ran away from home at age 16, went into hiding as the Potters were targeted, and was later imprisoned, somehow has his letter from Lily end up in his bedroom at Grimmauld Place. No explanation as to how it got there.
This may have already been addressed, Wynnleaf, but I'm going to tackle it anyway. I think there is a really simple explanation. I'm betting it was a letter Sirius got from Lily shortly before their deaths. It seems to have been before the Fidelius Charm was put into place, since Bathilda was still visiting. Anyway, as one of the last communications he probably received from them, perhaps he tucked it into his pocket or wallet or something and kept it with him always. Perhaps he just took it out when he came back to 12GP with the Order. Maybe he took it out and was looking at it the night the Order was summoned to go to the DoM. It would have been out in plain sight, for Snape to grab. JM2K, of course ...
Solitaire
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Muggle at large - Jul 26, 2007 12:32 am (#185 of 340)
Hello all,
I have been reading this forum for about a year now, though I only registered to post last night. This is only my second post, so I'll start out on a positive note.
I absolutely loved the book. I timed it carefully and started re reading the entire series about a week and a half ago. When I got home from the book store at 12:45 a. m. I still had a few chapters of HBP left to reread and then immediately began on DH. Having done this I definatly feel HBP and DH seem like one big book in two parts. Very well written, in my opinion. Yes, there may be some flaws but I can live with them.
Now, on to other matters. Being so new, I hate to be the burster of bubbles (is burster a word?). Specifically the bubbles of Tom Proffitt (post #69) and Rassannasser (post #89) who both mention how wonderful it is that Harry never has to kill anyone.
In "the Seven Potters" during the ambush, Harry kills three Death Eaters. I don't have the book with me at the moment so I must paraphrase rather than quote exactly.
DE #1 - Harry takes aim at the middle DE and hits him with an impediment jinx. The DE is described as appearing to hang momentarily spread eagled in the air, from which I feel its safe to assume, he then plummets to his death.
DE #2 - Harry stuns another DE who is then specifically stated to have fallen from his broom.
DE #3 - Harry is randomly sending stunners back at the pursuing DE's and sees one fall past him, thereby, realizing he must have hit at least one.
The fact that Harry was fully aware of both what he was doing and the results of his actions, is demonstrated by his conversation with Remus in the next chapter. Harry tells Remus that to stun Stan, while hundreds of feet in the air would have caused Stan to fall from his broom and be killed as surely as if Harry had used Avada Kedavra. So, not only has Harry killed someone, he has done so intentionally.
Please don't take this as criticism. I simply wished to point out the missed details. In such a long detailed story, its quite easy to miss something like this. Especially as even though it is, I feel, a very important detail, it is almost glossed over, and never directly stated. Nor is it ever mentioned or discussed by any of the characters.
Well, that's all for now. I'm looking forward to actively joining discussions now that I've registered. Thank you for your time.
M@L
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Alex Thorpe - Jul 26, 2007 2:42 am (#186 of 340)
Something's just hit me about the cloak and Mad-Eye's eye... The cloak is supposed to be impervious to pretty much anything that would cause the wearer to be seen, but in GoF "Moody" can see Harry in the cloak with his magic eye... the same magic eye that Umbridge has on her door in DH, and then the alarm is only raised when Harry steals it. Surely it would have seen through the cloak then too?
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Steve Newton - Jul 26, 2007 3:51 am (#187 of 340)
Since Umbridge was elsewhere I don't think that there was anyone to see.
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wynnleaf - Jul 26, 2007 4:22 am (#188 of 340)
Something's just hit me about the cloak and Mad-Eye's eye... The cloak is supposed to be impervious to pretty much anything that would cause the wearer to be seen, but in GoF "Moody" can see Harry in the cloak with his magic eye... the same magic eye that Umbridge has on her door in DH, and then the alarm is only raised when Harry steals it. Surely it would have seen through the cloak then too? (Alex Thorpe)
One more example of a book littered with plot holes, dropped threads and inconsistencies. Oh for another 6 months to a year of editing and revision! I can only assume outside scheduling pressures pushed this book through too soon.
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NFla Barbara - Jul 26, 2007 5:03 am (#189 of 340)
Muggle at large, thanks for finding that scene. (I am beginning my re-reading this weekend and looking forward to answering a lot of my own questions!) I also think it's important that he killed DEs. He does not do it in a sadistic way, but the end result is the same. No one is completely unscathed in this battle.
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Phoenix - Jul 26, 2007 5:35 am (#190 of 340)
I still think intent makes a difference.
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M A Grimmett - Jul 26, 2007 6:41 am (#191 of 340)
Righteous! JKR spills about what she left out of the epilogue. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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Madame Pomfrey - Jul 26, 2007 6:57 am (#192 of 340)
Harry was polyjuiced to look like a ministry employee,so even if the eye saw through the cloak it didn't see Harry.
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Weasley Rex - Jul 26, 2007 7:16 am (#193 of 340)
Actually, intent is incredibly important in the law and can make the difference between whether a crime has been committed or not or between a serious crime and a lesser crime. However, I don't think that intent makes a difference with respect to causation. In other words, Harry's actions in the flight from Privet Drive (stunning people in the air which resulted in them falling to their deaths) caused their deaths. His actions killed them. That said, self-defense makes it entirely justifiable. This is why I never was too concerned that if Harry were ever forced to "kill" he would be ripping his soul apart because I always viewed kill in this sense as meaning "murder" and I could never picture Harry as a murderer.
By the way, I finally registered correctly and Frank Giordanella is now Weasley Rex.
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Suzan - Jul 26, 2007 8:20 am (#194 of 340)
Intent makes a huge difference, both in the eyes of the law and in the hearts of people. Also, stunning spells are not among the three unforgivable curses, which is a major distinction in Harry's world. A stunning spell that results in an unintentional death is not the same thing as the quite intentional Avada Kedrava curse.
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NickyJean01 - Jul 26, 2007 9:29 am (#195 of 340)
Thanx for the link.. I do hope we get more.. and yes I want to know the middle names of Harry's great great grandparents (kidding).. I wouldn't mind small stories about each of them ...
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halfmoon - Jul 26, 2007 10:21 am (#196 of 340)
I really, really loved the book, and I felt great when I finished it.
Actually I was kind of worried if the last book would finish like "...and then Harry awoke, who was 11 years old and had a scar on forehead." Because I thought I looked forward the last book too much, I had to prepare for the worst. But no! It was far exceeded my highest expectation! Thank you JKR!
Most impressive scene was Harry walking to the forest.
Most frightening part was Bathilda's house. I am 40 years old and I was scared to go to bathroom at night just after reading the chapter.
Most surprising thing was that the book contains a lot about Albus Dumbledore. And I had never dreamed he has his usual long talk even when he is dead!! I am not complaining, as he is my favorite.
Same for Snape. I am glad we could know a lot about his life. Even though it was not happiest one.
Deaths of Fred, Hedwig, Tonks, Remus, Madeye, Dobby, Colin, and even Rufas were heartbreaking, but I think they were inevitable. Otherwise, the whole battle against LV would look like "Home Alone."
Three things I did not get:
- wand masterships
Disarmed by Expelliarmus changes the wand's masters. Okay, then, lots of DA members must have lost their wands' power after the first meeting of DA with practicing the spell. Same must have happen after the duel club in the book two. No way.
- DD's plan for Snape
Did DD intend to let LV kill Snape? Because once LV found about the Elder Wand, there is no way for Snape to survive. Even if the Wand had lost its power as it planned, LV would not believe it until he kills Snape and see what really happens.
Meanwhile, there was a big chance LV obtains the Elder Wand long before he noticed about Horcrux hunting. In that case, Snape could get killed before LV starts protecting Nagini, and he may not able to tell Harry what he must do. So the plan must contains a way to keep Snape alive, but I could not find any.
- the Taboo
This is not so important but Harry says "Voldemort" aloud several times in Grimmauld Place.
I will start reading whole the series again with a new light of the last book. I am very glad I can enjoy the books for many years more, by reading over and over.
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Esther Rose - Jul 26, 2007 10:31 am (#197 of 340)
Yes, Harry, Hermione and Lupin say "Voldemort" in #12 Grimmauld. But it is unplottable so the snatchers would know the general area (ie they could stand in front of #11 and #13 Grimmauld Place which was what they were doing after someone said "Voldemort" at #12) but they would not be able to see or go into #12 Grimmauld Place no matter how hard they tried to. And it looks like they tried really hard.
The wand needs to be disarmed and claimed for the wand to have a new master or switch its allegiance. Had Dumbledore survived the AK and Tower drop the Elder Wand, Dumbledore would have probably remained the master of the Elder Wand. However Dumbledore did not survive. So for the remainder of the explanation I will just cut and paste what I wrote before.
On the night Dumbledore died Draco disarmed Dumbledore's wand via Expillarimus. However, Draco never "claimed" (ie. touched) the Elder wand. So, the only way the Elder wand would know it's true master is by whom ever owned Draco's wand since it was the wand that disarmed Dumbledore and no other hand had touched the Elder wand.
By Harry Stealing Draco's wand in the Malfoy Manor he obtained the Hawthorn wand that disarmed Dumbledore. And since Draco never touched the Elder wand, the Elder wand recognized only the owner of the Hawthorn wand (Harry at this point) as its master. So both the owner of the Hawthorn wand and the Elder wand was transferred from Draco to Harry in the Malfoy Manor. Had Harry returned the Hawthorn wand to Draco at any point during the "war" before he touched the Elder wand, then the Elder Wand would have once again recognized Draco as it's master.
Once Harry (the owner of the Hawthorn wand) touched (claimed) the Elder Wand at the end of Voldemort's life, the Elder Wand then recognized a wizard (Harry) instead of just the "owner of the Hawthorn wand" as it's master. At this point, Harry could have remained the master of the Elder wand no matter what happened to the Hawthorn wand.
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legolas returns - Jul 26, 2007 10:38 am (#198 of 340)
I would love to know what Hermione saw when she destroyed the cup. I can imagine an image of her parents getting tortured and voldemort saying he could stop it. I wonder if he taunted her about not being as good at magic as a pureblood. We know that shes brilliant but her boggart in POA told her that she had failed all of her classes. I could see her being really agitated an Ron having a smirk to himself and then stopping as soon as he remembers his ordeal.
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Madame Pomfrey - Jul 26, 2007 11:07 am (#199 of 340)
the Taboo This is not so important but Harry says "Voldemort" aloud several times in Grimmauld Place.
Which is why we see DE in front of the house.Grimmauld Place still had the Fidelius charm in place. While Snape was able to enter, I don't think Snape snitched on the Headquarters location,therefore,noone could enter.
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halfmoon - Jul 26, 2007 11:17 am (#200 of 340)
Thank you Esther Rose and Madame Pomfrey. Yes, probably that is why some DE's were in front of the house. However, other Order members' houses also got the Fidelius charm yet they got broken in, if I remember correctly. It seems Grimmauld Place has something more than the Fidelius Charm.
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Esther Rose - Jul 26, 2007 11:29 am (#201 of 340)
Edited Jul 26, 2007 1:04 pm
Fidelius Charm: Can't see people at the a particular location. Unplottable: Can't find location period.
The other houses may have had the Fidelius charm but the probably did not have their homes unplottable.
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Loopy Lupin - Jul 26, 2007 11:58 am (#202 of 340)
Well, Wynnleaf, I think that there will always be some plot holes in any book if you look enough and there is no doubt that there are some points that still aren't clear. But I don't know that I find fault in any of the same places as you.
Sirius, who ran away from home at age 16, went into hiding as the Potters were targeted, and was later imprisoned, somehow has his letter from Lily end up in his bedroom at Grimmauld Place. No explanation as to how it got there.
I don't see how this is a "hole" really. Sirius returned to 12GP and lived there for months before he died. It is not inconceivable that he had keepsakes that he brought with him back to GP and left behind.
Snape, during the summer and prior to the downfall of the Ministry to Voldemort's group, is seen in his memories inside Dumbledore's office talking with Dumbledore's portrait. What was he doing there? How'd he get in?
Other than talking to Dumbledore? The Office has demonstrated its allegiance to DD and Hogwarts in general, regardless of who was "named" as the Headmaster. So, I have no issue with him being let into the office. Getting into Hogwarts was surely trickier, but I would have expected DD and Snape to have worked out a way for Snape to be able to seek DD's advice via the portrait. Just because it's not exactly explained doesn't make it a plot hole.
Dumbledore insists that Snape needs to make Voldemort believe that he'd know when Harry was supposed to leave Privet Drive and orders Snape to arrange Harry's exit in such a way that endangers the lives of many Order members and brings about the death of one. Why? Why should LV ever think, now that the Order knew that Snape killed DD, that Snape should know when the Order planned to remove Harry from Privet Dr.? Wouldn't LV assume that the Order would change whatever plans it had that Snape had known about? It makes little sense to endanger so many Order members, not to mention Harry, for such a scheme. Besides, if killing Dumbledore didn't cement LV's trust in Snape, how would having Snape report the date of Harry's departure make such a difference?
Good questions all, but I don't know that there aren't good explanations. It didn't cost LV anything to have DE's waiting on the day Snape said the move was going to happen. Perhaps LV thought Snape had used Veritaserum on someone or still had inside sources in the Order. (How Snape actually came to have the information in the first place might bear some explanation indeed since he had been on the rune since June.) In any event, if LV had any doubts about Snape's information they were erased when the Order did attempt to move Harry early. As for why DD would suggest this, Harry was going to have to be moved from Privet Drive at some point. Everyone understood this and everyone understood that it would be dangerous to do so whenever it happened.
Dumbledore told Harry he borrowed James' cloak only days before they died.
I don't see the problem with any of this paragraph. The Potters could have visitors all they wanted. The issue was whether the secret keeper told LV where they were. Everyone thought the secret was safe, but that was a mistake to be sure. This is not a plot hole I think, but just a rather serious mistake on DD's part.
We'd been told repeatedly that Unforgivables were Bad.
Yes, they are, but this was war.
Hermione tells all about how she Obliviated her parents and later says she's never done memory charms. Sure.
I don't remember the context in which Hermione says this. Oh, Catherine! Can you help.
We were told at the beginning of HBP that Harry wasn't experiencing visions because LV was afraid to get in his head any more. Yet DH has hardly started when Harry is having visions again. No explanation for why they quit over HBP, but started again in DH.
Perhaps LV didn't have as much control over his and Harry's "connection" as LV himself thought.
We've been told by the Sorting Hat that the houses needed to unite. JKR said that the Houses represented the 4 elements, meaning they are all equal. But she showed not one Slytherin student standing against Voldemort. I guess you really can tell at age 11 who's going to be Evil. And it's about 1/4 of the population. Right. Perhaps if she'd shown some other reason for all of the Slytherin students leaving, it would have been okay. I realize that she had adult Slytherins do the right thing. Regulas, Slughorn, Snape, and Phineas. But to have every Slytherin student leave that school was, in my opinion, too much. It makes it look like all Slytherins supported Evil. Or at the very least, that no Slytherin students would stand against Voldemort.
I don't know if this meant they all supported evil, but certainly none of them had any problem with cowardice. And, I don't think the Sorting Hat was ever about determining who was evil or not at age 11. It only determined who belonged in what house; you draw your own conclusions after that based on the person's actions.
When Dumbledore notes Snape's courage, he implies that it means maybe Snape was in the wrong house. Are we to assume that only Gryffindors are brave?
And if we were, then "So what?"
Harry, at the end, assures his son that they'll be happy with him and love him regardless which house he is in. But where and how did Albus Severus get the idea that being in Slytherin was so completely undesirable? James certainly thinks so as well.
He could have gotten the idea from any one or all of this relatives who were all in Gryffindor. I think it was a nice touch that his father assured him that he would be loved no matter.
And then there's the closure for the deaths. We see bodies brought in and laid out. Even Voldemort's body gives a closure around his death. Last we see of Snape, his body is lying in the Shrieking Shack forgotten. No body, no spirit, no portrait, no grave.
Ok? What is the point here? I'm sure Snape was remembered sooner or later.
I don't think she gave us the resolution between Snape and Harry that the story had practically been begging for. She has Harry view Snape's memories at a point where he quite naturally isn't going to think anything about those memories except the part about his needing to die. Then later, he does reveal Snape's loyalties in public and to Voldemort, but we never get to see anything of Harry's thought process or change of heart toward Snape. The final words of "bravest man I ever knew," are great, but we can only guess at how Harry got from hating Snape to naming his son after him. Considering how extremely important this relationship was to the entire series, it seems to me a huge gap to have not addressed this.
I suppose there are some things that are best left to the imagination. I think that the fact that Harry gave his second born Snape's speaks volumes about Harry's reconciliation with Snape much more effectively than 100 more pages ever could have.
The book, in my opinion, needed months more editing and revision. I can only assume that JKR was pressured to complete the book to fit some sort of film production schedule.
Hornswaggle. There would be no way that JKR could have written a book that pleased everyone. But, I don't see that anything you've complained about is a real "hole" in the sense that there is no reasoable explanation for any such "problem."
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Sparrowhawk - Jul 26, 2007 12:15 pm (#203 of 340)
Legolas returns, I don't think that Hermione found it nearly as difficult as Ron to destroy her horcrux, and this for a very simple reason (apart from psychological ones, as important as these might have been). The locket had a lot of time to learn some potentially useful information from Harry, Ron and Hermione, while they were carrying it and discussing or even quarreling in front of it. But this was never the case for the Hufflepuff cup, and therefore the Horcrux had nothing to work on (unlike the locket and of course Tom Riddle's diary, who had learnt so much from Ginny).
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Mrs Brisbee - Jul 26, 2007 12:23 pm (#204 of 340)
In any event, if LV had any doubts about Snape's information they were erased when the Order did attempt to move Harry early. As for why DD would suggest this, Harry was going to have to be moved from Privet Drive at some point. Everyone understood this and everyone understood that it would be dangerous to do so whenever it happened.--Loopy Lupin
If the Horcrux Hunt was so important, it gets me why portrait Dumbledore thinks endangering Harry, Ron, and Hermione is a great idea. Other issues with Dumbledore's arrogance also arise. He's dead. Dead dead dead dead dead. He might have been "the general" once, but then he died. He isn't "the general" anymore. Killing Mad Eye Moody was an act of ultimate betrayal.
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Sparrowhawk - Jul 26, 2007 12:42 pm (#205 of 340)
Wynnleaf, although many of the points you made are very interesting (as usual
) ), overall I tend to agree with Loopy Lupin and I think that, given time and after some careful rereading(s) of the book, your own conclusion will also come somewhat closer to ours. For instance, you wrote: "We were told at the beginning of HBP that Harry wasn't experiencing visions because LV was afraid to get in his head any more. Yet DH has hardly started when Harry is having visions again. No explanation for why they quit over HBP, but started again in DH."
Loopy Lupin answered: "Perhaps LV didn't have as much control over his and Harry's "connection" as LV himself thought", but I think that there is another, simple and convincing explanation: DD's death, which must have had a tremendous impact on LV's arogant confidence that he was unbeatable, and that it was only a matter of time (and of finding the right wand for the job) before he would be able to kill Harry. LV was - once again - underestimating the real threat presented by Harry, and his temporary triumph made him forsake caution... once again.
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Esther Rose - Jul 26, 2007 1:00 pm (#206 of 340)
Also keep in mind, when the visions are most intense Harry had already entered into adulthood (or was close to entering adulthood) and therefore had the wizarding strength of an adult. Voldemort may have been able to keep the child Harry's mind at bay but the adult Harry's mind might have been too strong for him to practice Occlumency for very long. Especially during the times when Voldemort experienced intense emotions.
Legolas: I was not disagreeing with Sparrowhawk just adding to why the visions were coming on full force.
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Choices - Jul 26, 2007 1:00 pm (#207 of 340)
Muggle at large - "In "the Seven Potters" during the ambush, Harry kills three Death Eaters."
Harry didn't kill the DE's, the fall killed them. Harry did not use the AK and I doubt that he split his soul.
As for those who think this book is full of "plot holes", I think there is a perfectly logical explanation for each of these supposed plot holes. In my opinion, JKR has done an amazing job of keeping all the facts straight and tying up loose ends. I couldn't be happier with this book - even if it did shoot down some of my theories, it confirmed others. I am completely satisfied with it.
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NickyJean01 - Jul 26, 2007 1:07 pm (#208 of 340)
Choices.. I'm not by any means saying that harry was a murderer.. but he knew full well that by accomplishing stunning spells those people would die.. he made a concious and delibrate effort to save Stan by just getting rid of his wand (his signature move) which actually placed him in even more danger.. because he didn't want to kill Stan.. (or to die by his action).. so I think the point can be made that Harry knowingly killed them..
The argument can also be said in that vein thought that unless you kill someone with say an AK then the act of doing that kind of "evil magic" is what really rips your soul.. in which case you'd be right.. but what does that mean for Molly ..
bottom line your wrong the fall didn't kill them it was the impact.. LOL
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Choices - Jul 26, 2007 1:16 pm (#209 of 340)
LOL You got me there, NickyJean. It definitely was the impact that killed them. ;-)
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legolas returns - Jul 26, 2007 1:16 pm (#210 of 340)
Ester Rose-There is the alternative argument that things were going pretty well for Voldemort. When things went wrong Voldemort seriously blew his top. It would be hard to keep up occlumency then. So I am agreeing with Sparrowhawk.
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Loopy Lupin - Jul 26, 2007 2:02 pm (#211 of 340)
Killing Mad Eye Moody was an act of ultimate betrayal.
Well, DD didn't kill Mad Eye Moody. The Horcrux Hunters were always going to be in danger. DD had to trust that they would survive the various dangers that confronted them along the way. It is not as though they were to be kept under wraps until the went a huntin' down the the Horcruxes. The whole undertaking was dangerous business. There's no hint that LV had any doubts about Snape's loyalty, but providing this bit of information probably cemented LV's conviction that Snape was on his side. I know that Snape killed DD, but Draco was supposed to do it. That might have, ironically, caused LV to suspect Snape of disloyalty. The orders of LV had been disobeyed! Once Snape was proven right and the Ministry fell, I imagine that he maneuvered himself into the Headmaster spot so that he would be where he needed to be and where he could help protect students as much as he could.
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legolas returns - Jul 26, 2007 2:11 pm (#212 of 340)
I think Dumbledore had Harrys and all the students safety in mind. He wanted to make sure that Snape would stay in Voldemorts good books. As a result of this he would be made head and keep the students as safe as possible from the Carrows. Dumbledore said he would trust nobody else to give Voldemort information but keep back the essentials. Snape only told Voldemort the day that Harry was leaving. He told Snape to confund Dung-Voldemort was not expecting it to be as difficult to detect the real Harry thus keeping him as safe as possible.
I think Harrys escort would have been in danger regardless of when they moved Harry. The guard always knew that they were putting them selves at risk and they were happy to do it (except Dung).
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Mudblood Proud - Jul 26, 2007 5:04 pm (#213 of 340)
The Elder Wand did not have to be possessed to switch its allegiance. In the duel with Voldemort, Harry was already master of the wand by disarming Draco even though Voldemort possessed it at the time of the duel. When Harry disarmed Voldemort, Voldemort's wand, the Elder Wand, went "spinning through the air toward the master it would not kill..." to Harry. I don't know if Dumbledore would have remained master of the Elder Wand if he had lived after beintg disarmed by Draco. The history of the wand would indicate not, but then Dumbledore was exceptionally more powerful than other wizards so who knows. Of course, he could just disarm Draco in return.
I read the book the first time in one day, so I didn't notice all the aspects that reading the posts on this forum point out. I'm now re-reading it more slowly and seeing things I didn't before. There were some questions about who knew and how that Snape had killed Dumbledore. In Chapter Two, in the Daily Prophet article about Rita Skeeter's book, Rita says "Potter later gave evidence against Severus Snape..." so whether Voldemort/DEs believe it or now, the allegation was in the Daily Prophet for all to see.
Thanks for the link to JKR's interview about the "missing" parts of the epilogue. I hope there is an encylopedia because, of course, there are other characters about whom I'd like to find out more. Especially George.
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Madam Pince - Jul 27, 2007 12:05 am (#214 of 340)
Maybe I don't know the definition of the phrase "plot holes." Certainly I think there are a lot of things in DH that are not tied up as neatly as they might have been, and wynnleaf's list pretty much mirrors mine. There's no doubt there's many instances of these across the Forum (and we're a pretty detail-noticing bunch, too) -- the threads are full of posters scratching their heads and going "Huh?"
Yes, sure we can come up with explanations for almost all of them if we want to. Heck, we could just say "It's magic!" and that would technically explain it. I think the issue (for those of us that even have an issue -- bless you if you don't!) is that JKR herself didn't exactly point a clear path there for us, we are left to come up with solutions on our own. Some people love that -- it stimulates our intellect and allows us to sort of finish the story on our own -- heaven knows I myself make up enough wild theories to "fill in" parts that haven't been fleshed out. However, it's also possible that, say, a reader of mystery novels will feel "cheated" if the author neglects to provide us with a particular clue, and then springs it out at the end and says "The whole thing is solved by this one clue, which, oops, I didn't tell you about, or which doesn't match another fact that I told you earlier. But you can feel free to make up your own solution -- please do!"
As JKR said herself in a recent interview when she was speaking of people reading the last page first -- "It's not on." That's sort of the way I (and I believe wynnleaf as well) feel about some of these murkier issues.
But I am the first to admit I need to do a re-read. Perhaps that will clear things up for me. And I am not blaming JKR or saying she's a poor writer. It's obvious from what she said in her Today show interview that the entire plot is crystal-clear in her mind; after all, she's been pretty much thinking of nothing else for 17 years, which has me beat by a couple years! And she did say she'd probably write a follow-up encyclopedia someday -- she said (paraphrasing) "I know the answers to all these questions you're asking, and I'll be glad to tell you if you want to know."
It's like back when we were wondering how did Harry get the Marauder's Map back... JKR said in an interview with sort of a guilty laugh (paraphrased) "Oh didn't I tell you? He sneaked back into Filch's office and nicked it. I thought everyone would figure that out." Same sort of idea, but rather bigger issues, since some may be central to the plot resolution of the whole series. Anyway, yes we can find solutions on our own if we wish, but... well, I think you see my point.
Harry giving the name "Severus" to his second son is indeed telling, but frankly, I'd rather have had the extra 100 pages!
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Muggle at large - Jul 27, 2007 12:12 am (#215 of 340)
Choices,
The DE's in the ambush died of "Rapid Decelleration Syndrome" (House points will be awarded to anyone who can name the movie from which that obscure reference originates).
Seriously though, your argument that Harry didn't kill them, the fall did, is equivalent to saying, "I didn't kill him, it was the bullet that killed him. I only pointed the gun at him and pulled the trigger."
However, I never meant to imply that by defending himself in a battle, that Harry was ripping his soul. I was only pointing out that he had indeed knowingly and intentionally taken a human life, albeit in self defense.
Harry himself, in his later conversation, directly equates stunning Stan with using Avada Kedavra on him.
M@L
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Joanna Lupin - Jul 27, 2007 1:40 am (#216 of 340)
Hey, that was some read, huh? I finished the book on Wednesday (having started Monday and lived through two sleepless nights of lying in bed and racking my brain about what horrors would come next) and I found it extremely emotional. I howled with misery in several places (Dobby's death and funeral, Snape's misery, Harry going to the forest and Remus talking about his son understanding why he had died etc.) there was much less laughter in this book. Now, I mention it, what was George's ear joke about? I didn't quite get it.
I was awed by Neville and the DA - it was such a nice way to wind-up his character. The battle of Hogwarts was amazing!
I was chuckling somewhat how wrong we've been about the dragon and Snape's patronus!
Thank you JKR for such a delightful ride along the series! I'm still somewhat miserable that this is the end, but oh, well, everything ends...
Ok - I can't remember what else I wanted to add so I'll go and read some more (started re-reading yesterday).
P.S. - One fishy thing I noticed and not mentioned yet was the presence of muggle-born Colin Crevey at Hogwarts, or maybe he was summoned by the fake galleons as Ginny, Luna and the others?
P.S.2 - Houses of Order Members were put under the Fidelius Charm in the spring, wasn't it? And not earlier?
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mona amon - Jul 27, 2007 3:17 am (#217 of 340)
And then there's the closure for the deaths. We see bodies brought in and laid out. Even Voldemort's body gives a closure around his death. Last we see of Snape, his body is lying in the Shrieking Shack forgotten. No body, no spirit, no portrait, no grave.
I don't think she gave us the resolution between Snape and Harry that the story had practically been begging for. She has Harry view Snape's memories at a point where he quite naturally isn't going to think anything about those memories except the part about his needing to die. Then later, he does reveal Snape's loyalties in public and to Voldemort, but we never get to see anything of Harry's thought process or change of heart toward Snape. The final words of "bravest man I ever knew," are great, but we can only guess at how Harry got from hating Snape to naming his son after him. Considering how extremely important this relationship was to the entire series, it seems to me a huge gap to have not addressed this. (Wynnleaf post#161)
Wynnleaf, your post was interesting. I'm only commenting on the part I've quoted, as I've only re- read the Snape parts in the book.
All these bodies were already brought in from the grounds, and Voldemort of course died inside the castle. No doubt Snape's body was brought in afterwards and given due honours, now that everyone knows his true loyalties, but if she had written an emotional scene about it, the 'Albus Severus' part would have lost it's punch.
Actually I loved the way she wrote Harry's reaction to Severus' memories. It was wonderful (and heart breaking) to see the barriers that Harry had put between himself and Snape just go crashing in a moment. He accepts Severus instantly and totally. I never thought it to be this way. I was expecting a long drawn out and touching scene. But all we get is one thought about Severus as he marches to what he thinks is his death, acknowledging his affinity with him (and with Voldemort), and one triumphant declaration when he is face to face with Voldemort. He loved my mother. He wasn't yours. he was Dumbledore's. And that's all, till nineteen years later when we learn with a jolt and a pang about 'Albus Severus' and that Harry thought Severus was the bravest man he ever knew.
I must say all this worked beautifully for me. Anything more would have diminished the emotional intensity.
As for the plot holes, can I add one more to your list? In Snape's memory of the forest conversation, Dumbledore asks Snape if he's giving Harry more detentions, and that he will soon have spent more time in detention than out. But up to that point, Snape has given Harry only one detention. It is only later, to punish him for Sectumsempra, that he gives him a number of detentions.
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Mrs Brisbee - Jul 27, 2007 4:41 am (#218 of 340)
Well, DD didn't kill Mad Eye Moody.
True. Dumbledore couldn't kill anybody, because he was already dead. Dumbledore had made off to the great beyond, no longer around to run the show and coordinate the various forces and pass on needed information and make decisions of life and death for his forces.
Except for that portrait he left behind. It's a soulless entity, therefore the choices it makes cannot weigh on its soul. That Dumbledore could leave behind an imprint of himself that thinks it has the right and reason to make those kinds of decisions is unconscionable. How could he think his portrait was better than any of those living persons that had a stake in this?
Dumbledore knew for an entire year that he was going to die. He needed to get his affairs in order and make sure people were left behind who knew what was going on so they could carry on and tackle the things that effected them. The best plan Dumbledore, the leader of the Order of the Phoenix, could come up with? "Okay, Severus, you kill me to look good with Voldemort, and I better leave someone in charge of the Order who knows what's going on so-- hang on, I don't trust any of the Order. Let's just betray them instead so you look even better!"
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Loopy Lupin - Jul 27, 2007 5:12 am (#219 of 340)
Rereading last night, I came across the "Memory Charm Problem" that wynnleaf mentioned and I'd have to say I agree on that one. Perhaps there is a difference between "modifying" your parents' memories to forget you and the last 17 years and causing them to assume new identities vs. "obliviating" a Death Eater's memory of the last 15 minutes worth of dueling, but the books have never made such a distinction before and the former would seem much more difficult than the latter.
I'd be interested to see if like the Wand Order Problem or Flint's Extra Year, this bit gets modified in later printings. So, hold on to ye first editions!
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Madame Pomfrey - Jul 27, 2007 5:12 am (#220 of 340)
I have no problem with Harry, intentionally or not, killing DE.It is war on evil. Harry is not hunting down DE and killing them He is killing them in self defense.I think there is a big difference in killing in self defense and for the protection of others opposed to killing for sport (killing mudbloods}or killing someone just because they are in the Order etc. I seriously doubt what Harry has done would rip the soul.His was a rightous killing in my eyes.He tried to spare Stan who he knew was probably imperio'd and he saved the DE Draco and Goyle who he could have let die.
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M A Grimmett - Jul 27, 2007 6:13 am (#221 of 340)
I'd like to see a special "Author's Cut" edition of this book!
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Holly T. - Jul 27, 2007 6:40 am (#222 of 340)
My son is about halfway through the book and he got to the part about Neville, Ginny, and Luna trying to steal the sword. He said "They're reforming the DA, just like the others reformed the Order of the Phoenix. Oooh! Just like a real phoenix!"
I thought that was pretty clever.
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Choices - Jul 27, 2007 11:51 am (#223 of 340)
Muggle at large - "The DE's in the ambush died of "Rapid Decelleration Syndrome" (House points will be awarded to anyone who can name the movie from which that obscure reference originates)."
Come on - don't leave us hanging. Was it "Die Hard"?
I certainly know what you mean. There is just a big difference in my mind between "stunning" someone and using an AK on them. In the first instance there is a chance of their survival - someone might catch them or they might do a "shield charm" to prevent them slamming into the ground, they might land on a haystack (OK, it's remotely possible - LOL) whereas with an AK death is certain (usually). He gave them the possibility of survival.
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Scouting Bear - Jul 27, 2007 12:10 pm (#224 of 340)
I believe the person to use magic late in life was Voldemort's mother (the name escapes me at the moment). In the interview in which JKR states that someone will do magic late in life, she never says that it will be the last book. In HBP Dumbledore tells Harry how the Gaunt's treat the daughter and call her Squib and it isn't until they are gone from the house that she is able to perform her magic.
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Muggle at large - Jul 27, 2007 3:08 pm (#225 of 340)
Choices,
The movie was "Running Scared" starring Billy Crystal and Gregory Heines, much more obscure than "Die Hard". The two characters are asked how they thought someone who had fallen from a building died. One responds, "rapid decellaration syndrome?", the other, "Pavement poisoning?". On being told he was first drowned then thrown off a building Billy's character says, "Poor guy, couldn't swim or fly". I always remembered that exchange because I thought it was very funny.
I must back off a little about Harry specifically equating stunning Stan to AKing him. Just looked up the exact quote. "We were hundreds of feet up! Stan's not himself, and if I Stunned him and he'd fallen, he'd have died the same as if I'd used Avada Kedavra!...". The second "and" could be interpreted as allowing a small amount of wiggle room. However, Harry does knock three DE's off there brooms, one with the Impediment jinx and two with stunners. He Knows he caused them to fall with his spells. I believe some of his need to defend his disarming of Stan arises from guilt he feels over killing the other DE's. Again, I am not blaming Harry for killing or saying he should feel guilty. I believe any normal person would at least a small amount of guilt about having to take a life, regardless of the circumstances.
I'm of to continue my second read through.
M@L
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Chemyst - Jul 27, 2007 3:59 pm (#226 of 340)
I believe some of his need to defend his disarming of Stan arises from guilt he feels over killing the other DE's.
Harry had asked Scrimgeour to release the innocent Stan way back in HBP. It never happened. It is likely Harry felt bad because the DE's had gotten to an innocent guy while he was wrongfully jailed. Stan had been sent to Azkaban to make it look like the ministry was doing something. They ruined Stan's life to make themselves look good. Harry realized that Stan was a victim of both the Ministry and the Death Eaters, and would never have been there on his own.
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Choices - Jul 27, 2007 6:03 pm (#227 of 340)
I agree Chemyst, not that Harry and Stan were friends, but they were acquaintances and near the same age. I think Harry felt really bad for what had happened to Stan.
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Geber - Jul 27, 2007 9:46 pm (#228 of 340)
As far as whether or not Harry killed Death Eaters in the Seven Potters chapter, he didn't seem too concerned with knocking Death Eaters off their brooms, except for Stan, because Stan was not himself. I think Harry felt the others had a decent chance of using their wands to cushion the fall in one way or another. I also seem to recall somewhere in the book that if Dumbledore had his wand when he fell from the tower, he might have survived (perhaps the person thinking this never heard, or didn't believe, Harry's description of the event, so didn't know or about the AK.)
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Tazzygirl - Jul 27, 2007 10:44 pm (#229 of 340)
I was going to post this in the chapter for 'Dumbledor's Will', but then I thought there might be something that would give away what happens later on in the book. So now I figure I would post it here, as this is the thread that covers the entire book.
What did the words on the snitch mean ("I open at the close")? My friend and I were discussing it, and neither one of us could figure it out.
I just had a brainwave- does it mean that it would open when Harry figured out what the Deathly Hallows were, and he was getting ready to face Voldy the first time?
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Verity Weasley - Jul 28, 2007 12:21 am (#230 of 340)
Regarding the discussion about Harry killing Death Eaters on the flight from Privet Drive, I don't think we can assume that any of them actually died. In one instance it is mentioned that another death eater swooped to catch his falling colleague. There is nothing to say this did not happen for the others, or that they did not use their wands to halt their fall in some way.
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mona amon - Jul 28, 2007 3:40 am (#231 of 340)
What did the words on the snitch mean ("I open at the close")? My friend and I were discussing it, and neither one of us could figure it out.
Tazzygirl, I took it to mean, 'I open at the close of your life'. Dumbledore had enchanted the snitch so that it would open only when Harry was walking to what he thought was his death, so that he could use the resurrection stone inside to summon his dead parents and others, who would give him the support he was so badly in need of at the time.
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Anna L. Black - Jul 28, 2007 8:50 am (#232 of 340)
"As for the plot holes, can I add one more to your list? In Snape's memory of the forest conversation, Dumbledore asks Snape if he's giving Harry more detentions, and that he will soon have spent more time in detention than out. But up to that point, Snape has given Harry only one detention. It is only later, to punish him for Sectumsempra, that he gives him a number of detentions." - mona amon (I think )
You know, as I read it, I felt that Dumbledore was thinking about all the detentions Harry had to do for Umbridge. Maybe it's just me unwilling to see any plot holes in my favorite series, but I think it works.
EDITED to add unrelated thoughts:
I wanted to comment on the issue of all the Slytherins leaving the castle, that was mentioned in a couple of other threads as showing us that all Slytherins are basically Dark Arts/LV/DE supporters. I couldn't find a better thread, so I'll just post it here:
I don't think that the fact there were no young Slytherins left in Hogwarts shows that they're all supporting LV's cause (up to some point). I fell that it's due more to their selfishness, if I can call it that. Just like Phineas Nigellus tells us - given the choice, Slytherins will save their own neck, rather than staying and risking themselves. We can see that the older Slytherins, who have already faced life's difficulties, are making the opposite choice - Slughorn returning to defend the castle, Regulus drinking the potion himself and trying to make sure that the horcrux is destroyed, and of course, Snape doing all that he did. There's also Narcissa, but she was driven by a different motive.
I don't know how much this justifies what they did, but I just felt it's not really fair to refer to them as totally-Dark-side-supporters, because I don't believe that Jo meant it that way.
It feels wierd to defend the Slytherin house... Oh, well
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wynnleaf - Jul 28, 2007 12:45 pm (#233 of 340)
I don't think that the fact there were no young Slytherins left in Hogwarts shows that they're all supporting LV's cause (up to some point). I fell that it's due more to their selfishness, if I can call it that.
So either they're all into following Dark paths, or they're so selfish they'll allow the Wizarding World to completely fall to a Dark Lord. What's the real difference here? JKR could have had at least one or two willing to oppose LV, but she chose not to. I think we have to assume from her choice that Slytherin really is basically evil. I guess the Sorting Hat really can tell at age 11 who's going to be evil. I'm not sure what "choice" we're supposed to blame the Slytherin's for -- not begging the Hat to be placed elsewhere?
Once a kid gets sorted into Slytherin, we've now seen 7 books where not one turned out to follow Light. And we've seen plenty of evidence that starting at the Sorting, when other Houses hiss the newly sorted Slytherin 11 year olds, that they are disdained by the other 75% of the school.
It's no wonder, in my opinion, that the only "good" Slytherins are adults. They can't escape the Slytherin trap until they're out from under the shadow of Hogwarts.
I'm not sure what "choice" Slytherins have, while they are in school. Either befriend other Slytherins (who we can now be 99% sure will follow the Dark), or be completely alone because the rest of the school hates them. Why should the Wizarding World be surprised that an 18 year old, after 7 years in Slytherin would go anywhere but Dark? They've been effectively told they're going there for 7 years and given no other options while at Hogwarts -- no one willing to think a Slytherin could be anything, but Dark. The Wizarding World is sustaining a self-perpetuating cycle. I was really hoping that JKR would give us something in the series that would either tell us how wrong this was, or show us that really, in fact, all of Slytherin wasn't truly Dark and kids in Slytherin really did have positive choices available. She didn't show that.
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Prefect Marcus - Jul 28, 2007 12:48 pm (#234 of 340)
Didn't McGonagall basically tell all of the Slytherins to vacate the premises?
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Majikthise - Jul 28, 2007 2:05 pm (#235 of 340)
Edited Jul 28, 2007 4:10 pm
Anna L. Black wrote:
I don't think that the fact there were no young Slytherins left in Hogwarts shows that they're all supporting LV's cause (up to some point).
In their conversation in the Shrieking Shack (in either The Battle of Hogwarts or The Elder Wand, I can't be more precise because I've loaned my book), Voldemort tells Lucius that all Slytherins except Draco have joined his forces. While we know this an exaggeration (Crabbe and Goyle stayed in Hogwarts as well), it strongly suggests that at least most of the Slytherins joined up. So you might win your argument on a technicality (we still don't know that all of the young Slytherins supported Voldemort), but there certainly seems to be a strong correlation between being Slytherin and supporting Voldemort.
And this is one of my many disappointments with the book (or perhaps more accurately with the series). Despite the near constant negative portrayal of the members of Slytherin, I rather expected that in the end, most would chose to oppose Voldemort (i.e., that the Houses would unite). Instead, they all support Voldemort, or at best leave, and I remain puzzled why Slytherin House has not been abolished.
Perhaps Slytherin House is an allegory of the groups of nasty people that society is never without. But if that's the case, Harry is remarkably blase about the possibility that his son Albus might be sorted into Slytherin.
And this is what I really expected: That much in this series would never be resolved.
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Oruma - Jul 28, 2007 4:21 pm (#236 of 340)
Then again, look at it this way: only those students of age are allowed to stay and fight. Those students who are of age are in Harry's year, or sixth years----which means they're either Draco's mates, Pansy's amigas, or heavily under Draco's influence (he didn't drop out and is probably Head Boy of the year). It is quite logical that, as long as they are not directly threatened by the Dark Lord, Slytherins generally won't stick their necks out and risk their lives.
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Majikthise - Jul 28, 2007 4:56 pm (#237 of 340)
Prefect Marcus wrote:
Didn't McGonagall basically tell all of the Slytherins to vacate the premises?
One can read it that way, but one can also say that she told all of the Ravenclaws to leave as well. More significantly, from the passage that immediately preceeds this, one can argue that the Slytherins chose to be banished. In The Battle of Hogwarts, after Voldemort demands Harry, Pansy Parkinson stands, points at Harry, and yells to "grab him". The Gryffindors, followed by the Hufflepuffs and Ravenclaws, rise, face Parkinson, and pull out their wands. No Slytherin rises to Harry's defense.
To me this is the defining tableau: The Gryffindors, Hufflepuffs, and Ravenclaws standing on the feet to defend Harry and oppose Voldemort, and the Slytherins (excepting Parkinson) sitting on their hands.
Oruma wrote:
Then again, look at it this way: only those students of age are allowed to stay and fight. Those students who are of age are in Harry's year, or sixth years----which means they're either Draco's mates, Pansy's amigas, or heavily under Draco's influence (he didn't drop out and is probably Head Boy of the year). It is quite logical that, as long as they are not directly threatened by the Dark Lord, Slytherins generally won't stick their necks out and risk their lives.
The rot in Slytherin didn't start with Draco and Pansy. It didn't start with Riddle. It goes all the way back to its founder and his pure-blood philosophy.
As for it being "logical" not to oppose evil, I suspect that's not a lesson Rowling intended to convey. One might says it's understandable that self centered people will not oppose evil, but that makes them no less despicable.
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Chemyst - Jul 28, 2007 7:00 pm (#238 of 340)
What did the words on the snitch mean ("I open at the close")? My friend and I were discussing it, and neither one of us could figure it out. - Tazzy
Tazzygirl, I took it to mean, 'I open at the close of your life' - mona amon
Or perhaps more accurately, I open at the close of the Quest, since he became the Man who Lived, (being of age now and all.)
...it's understandable that self centered people will not oppose evil
Insofar as self-centeredness is an evil, they'd have to oppose themselves, wouldn't they?
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Tazzygirl - Jul 28, 2007 9:03 pm (#239 of 340)
Thanks Chemyst and Mona Amon! At first it didn't make sense, and then I had that brainwave thing. So having that and then you two coming in with your thoughts just made it sound better!
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Phoenix - Jul 29, 2007 7:58 am (#240 of 340)
The rot in Slytherin didn't start with Draco and Pansy. It didn't start with Riddle. It goes all the way back to its founder and his pure-blood philosophy. - Majikthise.
I agree totally with this statement. We also know that 54 years ago Tom Riddle, discovering his heritage, again began re-promoting the pure-blood mania within Slytherin to the extreme, opening the Chamber of Secrets and killing a 'mudblood'. He created a movement and took followers, and their children were raised to promote it -- generational predjudice. Snape clearly got caught up in it, which would be easy for him to do, as he needed something to glom onto for his self-esteem. And Snape did not help the situation either when he came to Hogwarts to teach. In SS/PS, before going into his class, Ron told Harry that Snape tends to favor his own. This is divisive in and of itself. At the end of SS/PS, the whole school celebrates Slytherin's downfall. Throughout the books, we see Snape demonstrating unfairness and bullying Gryffindors, continuing the separation between the houses. By doing this, Snape was encouraging the Slytherins to become 'bullies', mirroring his behavior. I have to wonder if Slughorn had been in charge, if we wouldn't have seen some Slytherins stand up for Harry.
I also agree wholeheartedly with the concept of 'choices' and the 'Slytherin trap', Wynnleaf. I think that was brilliant! Kids usually do not have a full understanding of the choices they are making. I think JKR points to this well when she shows us the resemblances between Draco and his father - and Draco's proud to be like his Dad and part of the Dark Arts. He does not understand until he and family become victims of it.
I do wish 19 years later, Albus Severus was not afraid to be chosen for Slytherin. But perhaps JKR was showing us the years it takes to undo predjudice that has been promoted for centuries, generation to generation. On a speculative note, perhaps Albus will go into Slytherin and help undo the damage? That would be so fitting!
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Reading muggle - Jul 29, 2007 3:24 pm (#241 of 340)
I found DH to be absolutely fascinating! It was a very entertaining roller-coaster of fun and emotion! I can understand the epilogue comments, as that area of writing could have covered so many different directions. I was thinking the epilogue would summarize the aftermath of the wizarding world and surviving characters (such as were the house elves freed, what happened to Umbridge, how long did Harry live, etc.). But JKR's version leaves plenty of room for possible story lines to come, just in case. I do wonder about the driving test Ron took - does that mean wizards were required to integrate more in the muggle world?
One other comment that I am surprised 240 posts have not touched on is the cover art! Neither Bloombury or Scholastic covers are good representations of the story. The Bloomsbury art is inaccurate by the lack of the Hufflepuff cup on the sword. And can anybody let me know from what scene is that wandless image of Harry and Voldemort on the Scholastic cover? That photo kept me waiting for that Department of Mysteries veil that never materialized. I see now that it is the Hogwart's great hall, but I still don't get it. I know it's just cover artwork, but still....
I kind of wish the Philosopher's Stone fit into Dumbledore's discussion with Harry during the King's Cross chapter, as that too, was another relating attempt at immortality.
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2BMcsmom - Jul 29, 2007 4:42 pm (#242 of 340)
Edited Jul 29, 2007 7:00 pm
When JKR said that not everyone would like this book she was very right. Maybe more so than she expected. If she was to read some of the post that have been made she would probably be telling herself "I knew it."
Everyone has made some good arguments. I do not deny that. But having just read the last 240 post from this thread alone, had I not been a big HP fan, I do not know that I would have read DH.
No, not everyone is going to like a book. No, not everyone is going to like every thing that was written in a book. But I must say that I never expected that DH would be picked apart as much as it has. Not meaning any offense to any one, but JKR has spent a big portion of her life giving us these treasures that we will get to have for as long as we want. Let us enjoy them for what they are. Very wonderful books that take the reader away on a fantastic journey to a truly marvelous make believe place. A place that can only ever be truly seen in the eye of the reader.
I guess that it is needles to say that I loved the book. The whole series even. There is more that I would like to know especially about some of the minor characters. I look at it as there is always a chance of JKR giving us more books on the wizarding world, other than just an encyclopedia.
I apologize in advance if I offended anyone. That was not my intent.
Edit: I forgot to mention that yes, there have been some great post in response to the book. A good many people do have a favorful(?) opinion about DH.
Edit 2: Thank You Choices. I had felt compelled to say what I did, but at the same time wondering if I was out of line.
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Choices - Jul 29, 2007 5:17 pm (#243 of 340)
2BMcsMom, I know exactly what you are saying. I think JKR is an amazing writer and I can not fault her one bit if she has left out something or gotten her math slightly wrong. I could not begin to do the job that she has done. If I wrote 7 connecting books, by the time I got to the end I would have the biggest jumbled mess on my hands - and I am an extremely organized person actually. I am totally in awe of this magical world that JKR has created and and so grateful that I found it and can visit there any time I want to. I love her characters, I love Hogwarts, I love all the magical locations, I love the interaction between the characters, I love how they make me laugh out loud and later, sob into my Kleenex. No, the book isn't perfect, but it sure comes close in my opinion, and I wouldn't dare to criticize JKR for some small imperfections, because there is no way under the sun that I could even come close to doing what she has done. Writing seven world wide best sellers is pretty darn amazing in my opinion and I plan to keep reading them for as long as I have sight in my eyes. I could wish for nothing more than to take my last breath while on some wonderful magical adventure with Harry Potter. I do hope I can go through King's Cross - I'll board the Hogwarts Express to go "on" and spend eternity at Hogwarts. Ah, that would be Heaven!
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haymoni - Jul 29, 2007 6:48 pm (#244 of 340)
I thought for sure that we would see Fawkes again.
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Magic Words - Jul 29, 2007 9:14 pm (#245 of 340)
Well of course, 2BMcsMom. Think about how long the book is, and how many issues are being picked apart here. Now think about what a huge percentage of the book isn't being picked apart because the fact that it was wonderful goes without saying.
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Esther Rose - Jul 30, 2007 6:24 am (#246 of 340)
Wynnleaf: To answer your question about Slytherins not joining the fight. It all boils down to the Kreatcher treatment incident, doesn't it? In all of the 6 books and up to this point Slytherins were not included or given the protection that the other houses gave to each other. They basically had to defend themselves. Whether there are "good" Slytherin students is almost moot at this point.
Put it this way. If I was ostracized because I was in a particular group and every one else did not support me or my group. I would be highly reluctant to answer the call when they ask me to join in the fight against whatever or whomever they were fighting.
Especially when said other group or groups have done nothing to gain my loyalty. Especially, for good or bad, they are fighting folks mainly from my ostracized group. Especially when they have not proven that they were willing an able to protect me should I aid them in their cause. Especially when it is my friends parents whom they might be at war with. And especially when if doing so would alienate me from the only group I had grown up with. (Remember, there is no promise of future friendship should I join.) Peer pressure is tough in the teen age years. Combine that with war.
The desire to leave must have been the only thing on Slytherin student's minds.
I would even go as to say Slytherin students must have wondered what potion got into the morning's pumkin juice when they were asked to join the war against Voldemort and his mostly Slytherin Graduate Death Eaters.
er... hmmmm... not that I plan on changing my Dress Robe colors or anything.
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Phoenix - Jul 30, 2007 10:07 am (#247 of 340)
2BMcsMOM and Choices, thank you for posting that - both were beautifully written. I'm finding as I'm going through the threads that I would rather talk about the wonder of JKR's works.
I've have a number of people in my family pass on, and there's not a day goes by I don't still feel their loss. But after reading Deathly Hallows, somehow I felt closer to them... I also had a close call with breast cancer a few years ago, and I can tell you, Harry's death scene is right on the money! JKR may have set the whole world in fantasy in her books, but so much hits home in reality. I am so grateful she wrote these books. I should have posted this in my 'thank you, Jo' note, but I was fearful. I will, though.
Choices, I am sorry if my posting came off offensive. It was truly never my intention. I think I've tried to hard...
Anyways, I love this thought:
I could wish for nothing more than to take my last breath while on some wonderful magical adventure with Harry Potter. I do hope I can go through King's Cross - I'll board the Hogwarts Express to go "on" and spend eternity at Hogwarts. Ah, that would be Heaven! - Choices
I couldn't help thinking of this quote:
"Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?" Dumbledore, Ch. 35., DH
Just curious - what scenes moved you both the most?
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M A Grimmett - Jul 30, 2007 1:11 pm (#248 of 340)
I didn't get the sense that many Ravenclaws stayed. I think it likely that many Slytherin students had parents tied somehow to Voldemort and didn't feel they could stay to fight; perhaps they just wanted to get the heck out of the fight. I also think the ostracism mentioned above might have had something to do with it. But I thought it interesting that few of the fighters came from Ravenclaw, not a bad house. Why wouldn't they stand and fight?
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Esther Rose - Jul 30, 2007 1:20 pm (#249 of 340)
M A Grimmett: I think they just didn't have the same connection with Harry/Griffindors as the Hufflepuff House did. I'd imagine that, of the Hufflepuffs, it was probably mostly those who remembered Cedric that stayed behind.
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Sparrowhawk - Jul 30, 2007 1:42 pm (#250 of 340)
Also, a sense of loyalty and friendship, as well as resilience and steadfastness, are typical Hufflepuff qualities. Ravenclaws appear altogether more distant, and their intellectual ability certainly outshadows their fighting spirit (wasn't it already the case with Dumbledore's Army? I should check...)
Maybe JKR has also made another parallel with the rise of nazism and WWII, when many intellectuals chose to flee Germany, rather than stay and fight to death...
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Verity Weasley - Jul 30, 2007 2:58 pm (#251 of 340)
With regards to the earlier comment about the cover art, I think the Bloomsbury cover was a very good representation of the scene at Gringotts. The fact that many forumers correctly guessed that it showed the trio bursting out of a vault at Gringotts with Griphook speaks volumes about it's accuracy. I have no problem with the cup not being on the sword. At the point when the trio spill out the door, Harry has already taken the cup off the sword and put it in his pocket. It would have been a bit of a giveaway to include it!
I agree that the Scholastic cover was much vaguer and not such an accurate depiction of the scene. I'm guessing that it shows Harry reaching for Voldie's wand, having just disarmed him, but where Harry's wand is, I have no idea. And look at the size of that pouch around his neck. Judging by what he kept in there it must have had similar qualitites to Hermione's beaded bag, but that was never suggested.
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Choices - Jul 30, 2007 4:26 pm (#252 of 340)
Phoenix - "Choices, I am sorry if my posting came off offensive."
Dear, dear Phoenix. It didn't. Everyone is entitled to express their particular opinion - their personal take on things. I enjoyed your posts and appreciate your comments.
I think the digging of Dobby's grave moved me the most, but I have to confess I used more than a few Kleenex while reading this last book. Hedwig, Dobby, Snape, Fred, Harry and Dumbledore together......so many losses.
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Phoenix - Jul 30, 2007 9:40 pm (#253 of 340)
Those were truly tearjerkers. I started a re-read, and got choked up again when Harry was talking to Hedwig. Regarding Snape, I hated to see him die like that. But, I was very happy to learn that he loved -- a true love, a sacraficial love. I believe his love for Lily acted as a 'tether' to a positive place on the other side. His ability to care for others was limited, but it seemed the longer he was on the right side and exposed to Dumbledore, he was evolving. Despite was JKR said, he definitely cared for Dumbledore, he was happy for McGonagall when she recovered from the stun hexes, he cared about Draco, and had compassion for Narcissa. If he had more time, who knows?
On a more positive note, Kreacher actually surprised me. I don't think anyone saw much hope for him. --Just an old, bitter, hateful house elf. Some saw this scene as "corny", saying that all they had to do is be nice to him and he changed. But Hermione tried to be kind, with no effect. It wasn't until Harry asked him about Regulus and addressed the issue that was most important to him, that he responded. - That's true for anyone. It's interesting that S.P.E.W. never got off the ground. But JKR clearly shows the way to truly effect change.
Dumbledore's death is what drew me to the Forum. I was so upset, and no one I know is into HP, so I started searching websites. Obviously, I liked this one the best. In DH, I loved the King's Cross scene, where he's explaining everything to Harry (like he is supposed to at the end of each book!). This scene and the lead up to it where Harry is walking with those passed on, it makes you feel like they are not so far away. -Like Luna said in OotP when Sirius died.
-- I think the Kleenex industry had a spike in sales after DH came out! (and I'm glad I didn't offend!)
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wynnleaf - Jul 30, 2007 9:56 pm (#254 of 340)
Esther Rose, I agree completely.
On another note...
JKR's series of books has been read by millions and millions of people and -- here we are examples -- it has strongly affected the lives and thoughts of huge numbers of people.
No, I don't think books that have so affected people should have their faults, most especially those that touch on important ideas and concerns, glossed over, just because the writing was also enjoyable and fun.
I enjoyed Deathly Hallows. It was a cracking good read. But it also ended a series of several thousand pages with some big questions left unresolved. I don't want to avoid those questions, just because I had fun reading.
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Good Evans - Jul 30, 2007 11:54 pm (#255 of 340)
Not strictly correct to post this here - but I couldn't find anywhere else!!!
Happy belated to Neville and Happy birthday to Harry! It is nice to see that JKR intends to continue with the birthday mentions.
Were we right about the birthdays only being mentioned for those who survive, or am I right in thinking that the twins used to get a mentuion?????
If mods think this should be moved, feel free to do so, it isn't strictly about the book, but the relevant threads are still closed on the main site, and I was not about to post it on the chat thread!!
Julie
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Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 31, 2007 3:27 am (#256 of 340)
That also means we should have a new wizard of the month tomorrow - Rowena Ravenclaw or Harry Potter?
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M A Grimmett - Jul 31, 2007 6:00 am (#257 of 340)
I'm doing a reread of the series now that the last book is out--it's extremely satisfying! I love that Jo is trying to give us more answers in her interviews. I thought it was funny that in one interview, she said that Ron was an Auror like Harry, but in a web q&a, she says he went to work with George. Somehow I like the second possibility better than the first!
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Mrs Brisbee - Jul 31, 2007 6:04 am (#258 of 340)
Me too. I can see Ron and George getting along. And the business being a bit more responsible for the kinds of items they sell (no more love potions, for one!).
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 31, 2007 9:33 am (#259 of 340)
I can see WWW providing materiel to Aurors such as Peruvian Instant Darkness Powder and Communication Coins to the reformed Aurors Division with Ron serving as the liason.
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Mrs Brisbee - Jul 31, 2007 9:41 am (#260 of 340)
Nathan, you deserve 50 points to your house for marrying together Rowling's conflicting reports about what Ron did after school (I hope Rowling uses this)!
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haymoni - Jul 31, 2007 4:52 pm (#261 of 340)
So what are the 12 uses for dragon's blood?
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Phelim Mcintyre - Aug 1, 2007 2:33 am (#262 of 340)
Who is the important classified spouse? Who was going to use magic late in life? I still have unanswered questions. Hopefully this will be the next book (encyclopedia).
As to Ron being an auror, I agree with Nathan. WWW supplied basic shielding equipment to the ministry. I wouldn't be suprised if Ron became a member of the Dark Arts Defence League, the Wizenmagot and most of the other areas of fighting the dark arts open to him without being an auror (especially with a wife who joins the Department of Magical Law Enforcement) and uses WWW as a cover to develop equipment for the aurors. A wizarding Q type person.
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M A Grimmett - Aug 1, 2007 6:13 am (#263 of 340)
I can just see Harry strolling into WWW with the kids, turning them loose, and going into the back room with Ron..."Let me show you the latest in Dark Magic detectors..." What would be a good number for Harry to have? 002, as he's survived the Killing Curse twice?
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Phelim Mcintyre - Aug 1, 2007 6:56 am (#264 of 340)
Imagining Ron as Q "Listen carefully Potter, try not to destroy the broomstick this time."
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Thom Matheson - Aug 1, 2007 7:28 am (#265 of 340)
Phelm, take a moment to read the interview with Jo. She said that there is no one with later in life magic. She changed her mind. Ginny before settling down with a family played for the Harpies, and Ron went and partnered with George.
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Choices - Aug 1, 2007 9:54 am (#266 of 340)
Phelim - "Who was going to use magic late in life?"
In the Webchat, JKR says she simply forgot about that. She said originally she planned to have it be a student who comes to Hogwarts after developing magic or something to that effect, but then it just slipped her mind.
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journeymom - Aug 1, 2007 11:48 am (#267 of 340)
My review, currently. I'm torn. Of two minds. I loved parts of it, especially Harry and Voldemort's final show down.
I loathed the Wandering in the Forrest for Fourty Days and Fourty Nights. It was boring. I just wonder if they could have twiddled their thumbs and Ron could have lost faith in Harry off camera. Did I really have to slog through all that to get the point?
So many questions left unanswered! So many!
I loath Snape's death. That he died I was certain would happen. Just not like that.
The epilogue read like fan fiction. Albus Severus Potter? Sorry, that's over the top. Though to be honest, while I was disappointed that JKR chose to name him Albus Severus, I was bawling my eyes out. "Oh, my gosh, that's so sweet!" *sob!* "He finally recognized Snape's worth!" *sniffle!*
The whole thing felt tremendously rushed and cobbled together. Yes, packed with action, lots of questions answered. But also, it felt like JKR was writing in a frenzy.
That the story didn't include daily life at Hogwarts I guess threw me for a loop. That's ok, but it took a while to get used to.
Parts of it were brilliant. But over all, as of now, I'm disappointed. I've never been disappointed with a HP book. Perhaps after a re-read I'll appreciate it more.
[Ducks the rotten tomatoes being hurtled at me]
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Luna Logic - Aug 1, 2007 12:48 pm (#268 of 340)
Edited by Aug 1, 2007 1:50 pm
Journeyom I was disappointed like you during some days after my first reading.
But it was only due to the end of my reading.
During the two first third of the book I was enthusiastic, enthralled by action, plot and characters, event he camping of the Trio! I liked every single paragraph (except Lupin?s treatment!) and was praising aloud very often the wording and the concision ? and the humour ! - of the writing.
My feelings did change exactly when the Trio leaves the run, and the forest, and the dragon, to put foot in Hogsmeade. From that point I found many events disappointing - except the whole part concerning Harry, Voldemort, Kings Cross and the wands. (I didn't understand all, but I like to not understand and having to think it over !
I didn?t understand my last feeling? Then I began to read the Forum, and re-reread the book..., alternatively. And the interview and the chat. And I had some discussions with others readers.
I think I have understood now my disappointment : I had to much imagined the Hogwarts part of DH: I had given a precise role in my mind to all the characters, Aberforth in first, then Snape of course, Slughorn, McGonagall, Flitwick, the students, the ghosts, the Founders statues, the secret rooms, etc. etc. I was waiting them to play my scenario ! But it was another scenario, the Author?s one ! Another point of view, and not again a student point of view. We were, like Harry, Ron and Hermione, outside Howgarts word, coming back as outsiders... I had to forget Hogwarts and the school days... Hogwarts in DH is only the scene of the last battle.
Today I just read the 267 posts before mine... I enjoys them all, as the book. I have no more reticence about the book, about the end, about Hogwarts role in DH... and it's a very good feeling. So I'm joining wholehearted with the Thank you Jo Rowling's lot!
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TomProffitt - Aug 1, 2007 4:27 pm (#269 of 340)
Many posts ago I put forth the question/statement asking whether or not Harry killed anyone. I didn't think that he had, but wasn't certain if he had knocked anyone from their broom on the flight from Little Whinging. Thanks for those that pointed out that he did. We, however, don't know whether or not any of them died. We know that one DE knocked from a broom was rescued by another, and we also know that wizards are significantly more resilient than muggles. I actually won't be bothered at all if Harry had killed one, I just thought it might have been symbolic on Rowling's part.
I've noticed over the course of the books that some of Rowling's "plot holes" aren't exactly plot holes. I haven't followed the alchemy thread in detail, but much of what happens and is witnessed is referenced to Alchemy Symbols. We have scenes occurring in The Forbidden Forest that would make more sense elsewhere, we have things take place at specific times of year for symbolic reference, and so on. Sometimes a "plot hole" isn't a plot hole, it's a symbol.
This "symbol" explanation is part of the reason no Slytherin student stays behind for the final battle. Of course many of things done at Hogwarts and in the Wizarding World are terribly wrong, but they have symbolic value in the story line. I'm reluctant to nit-pick Rowling as I don't follow all of her symbolism very well.
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Choices - Aug 1, 2007 6:04 pm (#270 of 340)
Tom, I'm certainly no Alchemy genius - truth be told, I would probably fall somewhere in the Troll range, but what you say is true about the "plot holes". What appear to be plot holes are actually plot mountains, if you just understand the alchemical symbolism. I just know that when we think JKR has made a mistake, she hasn't.
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totyle - Aug 1, 2007 6:51 pm (#271 of 340)
I'm not really sure of what I'm about to say so am hoping people will bear with me.
The WW were forced to retreat into their own world of secrecy to remain undetected by Muggles. They formed communities of their own (such as Hogsmead) or remained within Muggle communities but in secrecy. I'm thinking it must've been an easier life for blood traitors and half bloods to mingle with Muggles and blend in hence having an easier life style compared to pure bloods who had to limit their expansion and confine themselves to the WW community only.
Perhaps it was this past perceived persecution on pure bloods that motivated this LV pure blood drive? We know that Muggles did burn wizards and witches in the past? So perhaps LV thought this was the Muggles/blood traitors/half bloods turn for reckoning?
I dont know if that made sense and yes I know having said all that someone's going to say but LV was a Half Blood.....its just that Im trying to understand LV's motivation...weird though it sounds!
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Solitaire - Aug 1, 2007 11:45 pm (#272 of 340)
Esther Rose - In all of the 6 books and up to this point Slytherins were not included or given the protection that the other houses gave to each other. They basically had to defend themselves.
I think there is a reason, Esther Rose. Unlike the other houses, we do not see students of Slytherin attempt to make friends outside their house. As far as I can remember, Snape and Lily are the only example we have seen of friendship between a Slytherin and a student from another house ... and we must remember that their friendship was established before they went to Hogwarts. If the Pure-blood garbage we hear spewed by the likes of Draco and Blaise Zabini is representative of what other Slytherins are saying, it is only natural that the other houses might try to protect themselves from such hatred.
While Slytherins were not invited to join the DA, I think the kids were afraid they would rat them out to Umbridge. And whom did Umbridge choose for her little Inquisitorial Squad (aka Death Nibblers)? Slytherin kids.
In the last Voldemort war, most of the DEs did seem to come from Slytherin. We know there were Slytherins who weren't DEs--Slughorn, for one. Snape and Regulus both defected ... but they still joined in the first place. I think people were afraid to trust anyone with a Slytherin background. Even so, the Trio did save Draco. It took fear for her son to bring Narcissa to the point of trusting and lying for Harry. Those two actions went a long way toward breaking down the barriers, I think.
Harry's revelation of Snape's role in bringing down Voldemort will probably be shown (in Jo's future encyclopedia) to have had an enormous impact in helping to reunite the houses. I agree with the poster who said that little Albus Severus's fear of Slytherin is simply a testament to how long it takes to erase old prejudices and fears.
Bottom line for me? If Slytherins have felt isolated, as though kids from other houses have not "had their backs," I think it has been chiefly their own doing. They have chosen over the years to separate themselves from the other houses. Hopefully, that day is now over.
Solitaire
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Magic Words - Aug 2, 2007 6:55 am (#273 of 340)
This "symbol" explanation is part of the reason no Slytherin student stays behind for the final battle.
If you say there's something alchemical about this, I guess I'll have to accept it because from what I've seen of HP alchemical symbolism, it's not worth the hours I would have to take to try to understand it. The reason I'm disappointed with this part is that I was so sure JKR would use as a symbol of the exact opposite--how at least one or two Slytherins join the battle and allow us to say the houses are now in unity.
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Weeny Owl - Aug 2, 2007 7:09 am (#274 of 340)
I dont know if that made sense and yes I know having said all that someone's going to say but LV was a Half Blood.....its just that Im trying to understand LV's motivation...weird though it sounds!
I always thought that Voldemort hated Muggles and Muggleborns because of his father but at the same time hated Purebloods because his Pureblood mother left him in an orphanage and never bothered to make arrangements for him to grow up with a wizarding family.
He might want to kill those who are not Pureblood, but he isn't any kinder to Purebloods, even his own Death Eaters.
It seems to me that he simply uses what he feels will give him power, and being Slytherin's heir, knowing that many Purebloods want those who are not out of the wizarding world, and being willing to do nearly anything to achieve that goal, he simply uses anyone and anything to make himself more powerful.
He is a half-blood, but he tries to deny that part of him.
I could picture him gleefully killing anyone who isn't a Pureblood, while at the same time thrilled at having Purebloods as his servants. One side represents his hated father, while the other side represents the mother who never saw to it that he grew up knowing that he was a wizard.
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journeymom - Aug 2, 2007 8:22 am (#275 of 340)
I've noticed over the course of the books that some of Rowling's "plot holes" aren't exactly plot holes. I haven't followed the alchemy thread in detail, but much of what happens and is witnessed is referenced to Alchemy Symbols. We have scenes occurring in The Forbidden Forest that would make more sense elsewhere, we have things take place at specific times of year for symbolic reference, and so on. Sometimes a "plot hole" isn't a plot hole, it's a symbol.
This "symbol" explanation is part of the reason no Slytherin student stays behind for the final battle. Of course many of things done at Hogwarts and in the Wizarding World are terribly wrong, but they have symbolic value in the story line. I'm reluctant to nit-pick Rowling as I don't follow all of her symbolism very well. TomProffitt
Tom, I'm certainly no Alchemy genius - truth be told, I would probably fall somewhere in the Troll range, but what you say is true about the "plot holes". What appear to be plot holes are actually plot mountains, if you just understand the alchemical symbolism. I just know that when we think JKR has made a mistake, she hasn't. Choices
If you say there's something alchemical about this, I guess I'll have to accept it because from what I've seen of HP alchemical symbolism, it's not worth the hours I would have to take to try to understand it. The reason I'm disappointed with this part is that I was so sure JKR would use as a symbol of the exact opposite--how at least one or two Slytherins join the battle and allow us to say the houses are now in unity. Magic Words
Totally agreed with Magic Words. I guess I don't get it. I was so disappointed that no Slytherin student stepped up and truly, sincerely, genuinely joined with the rest of the houses to protect Hogwarts from invaders. I suppose I should have known it would be this way when in HBP Zabini turned out to be nothing more than a 'poser' and Theodore Nott was a tiny character who had nothing good to say.
Maybe JKR will explain the alchemy symbolism in the HP stories in her encyclopedia.
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TomProffitt - Aug 2, 2007 12:34 pm (#276 of 340)
journeymom, I think another thing that goes along with Rowling is that she is much more of a realist than an idealist. While it would be nice if Hogwarts united the Four Houses and everyone stood up to Riddle, that's not the way the world tends to work. If the Houses were selected by other standards than the ones Rowling chose, we might have had a Union of the Houses at the End. But, alas, earwax.
Gryffindor represents Truth and Bravery and thus has an unusually high number of Volunteers to the battle. Hufflepuff represents loyalty and naturally they would have the next largest number of volunteers. Ravenclaw represents Intellect, its members who stayed to fight did so because they reasoned the battle necessary and their own contributions to be of value.
The Slytherins don't represent values that are going to place them in harms way without significant reward. This is absolutely an absurd way to single out a quarter of your schools population, but it has a symbolic reference in Rowling's story. If a person chooses to nit-pick this kind of thing, it is only natural they will find a lot they dislike, because Rowling put these "flaws" in the story on purpose, not by mistake.
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journeymom - Aug 2, 2007 12:51 pm (#277 of 340)
Tom, you are no doubt correct, but I'm still having a difficult time getting my head around it. What was alchemically significant about the fact that no Slytherin student willingly stood up for Hogwarts? Did Hogwarts contain too much mercury? Was it too watery? Too green?
I think I must have missed the point entirely. I was looking for balance, thinking that Hogwarts needed contributions from all four houses in order to fight off Voldemort. That doesn't necessarily fit with Carl Jung's individuation theme.
I'll have to continue this over at the alchemy thread.
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legolas returns - Aug 2, 2007 12:55 pm (#278 of 340)
Slughorn was there at the end of the battle-He fought Voldemort. ADmittedly McGonagall had to tell him what was what in a previous chapter.
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journeymom - Aug 2, 2007 2:07 pm (#279 of 340)
Correct, Legolas, that's why I specified that no Slytherin student stood up for Hogwarts. Slughorn made his contribution. He does seem to be the only pleasant, true-green Slytherin. Jolly yet self-serving. And Snape, our anti-hero.
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legolas returns - Aug 2, 2007 2:16 pm (#280 of 340)
I thought Andromeda was a slytherin as well because Slughorn said all the Blacks except Sirius were in his house. She married a muggleborn-directly going against her family and ethos of her house. Admittedly her contribution was at the begining of the book and staying at home to mind her Grandchild.
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journeymom - Aug 2, 2007 2:23 pm (#281 of 340)
Yes, another Slytherin! Good point. But she wasn't a student.
Luna Logic is right. I'm disappointed because JKR didn't write the book the way I expected. I got it into my head, it was set in stone, that Hogwarts would go through some sort of transformation that would mirror Harry's transformation, and that because of it Harry would benefit from a whole, healed, well balanced Hogwarts. I suppose Draco barely qualifies. He accidentally helped Harry. Even so, as Ron said, he was a two-faced bastard.
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Choices - Aug 2, 2007 2:28 pm (#282 of 340)
I have wondered if one reason Harry saved Draco was because he felt guilty for using the Sectumsentra curse on Draco and nearly killed him.
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TomProffitt - Aug 2, 2007 3:01 pm (#283 of 340)
I always interpreted the Sorting Hat's plea for a united Hogwarts coupled with Nearly Headless Nick's comments as the kind of speeches you get from those hoping to avoid war. It wasn't a plea to unite to fight the war, but a plea to avoid it.
I never considered it to be a realistic hope as those willing to push a people into war aren't interested in tolerance. We saw Dumbledore reaching out to the Giants, Durmstrang, and Beaubatons in an effort to unify wizarding kind, but there was no moderation on the part of Lord Voldemort & the Death Eaters. Unification of the Houses was a lost cause almost before the books started.
So I was neither surprised nor disappointed that the Houses didn't unite. I never expected it.
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legolas returns - Aug 2, 2007 3:01 pm (#284 of 340)
I think it was due to the way Harry saw Voldemort treating Draco/Dracos reaction that probably resulted in Harry saving him.
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wynnleaf - Aug 2, 2007 6:47 pm (#285 of 340)
Until JKR says that all the Slytherins went over to Voldemort as some higher symbol of something more important than showing that people really can't be judged "evil" at age 11, I really don't think I buy it.
After all, JKR did tell us that the 4 houses represented the 4 elements. She had the Hat declare that unity was necessary for victory. Yet in the end, unity was achieved with deep divisions still there. And the stereotype of Slytherin -- most exemplified to me by Fred and George hissing just sorted 11 year olds in GOF with no one apparently batting an eye -- has been basically legitimized as true.
Many readers have tried to say that surely not all the Slytherins went to help Voldemort, or if they did it wasn't necessarily because they supported him. Maybe.
Thing is, a book must stand on it's on, and not have to be explained by the author's answering important and key plot point questions in interviews. And no book should have crucial questions and problems left to be explained away by readers working to force an answer in between the pages of the text when it isn't actually there.
There really are plot holes all over DH. And there are huge continuity errors - seriously more than all the other books combined. That doesn't mean JKR wrote a bad book. It means it was very poorly edited and revised, probably due to a rush to get it out in keeping with a filmmaking schedule. After all, the filmmakers want to get DH out in a timely manner after HBP. They didn't want to have another year or more in between. But that's probably what DH really needed in terms of editing and revision.
Does anyone seriously think that a book of this length and complexity usually goes to the editors and goes through an entire process of editing and revision in just a few months??
There's a lot to like about Deathly Hallows. But there's a great many holes and inconsistencies. And the loose threads left hanging are all over the place. It's really sort of sad, in my opinion, because what is a really wonderful read for the first or second time may not hold up over many re-reads like the other books have done.
Besides that, this series asked a lot of questions about good and evil, the way we judge others, how we respond to challenges, other people, etc. The sad thing is that many of the topics that appeared to be addressed in the earlier books got dropped.
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Mediwitch - Aug 2, 2007 7:11 pm (#286 of 340)
It's interesting to read about people's different perceptions of the book. I have noticed the comment made a couple of times that the book didn't match up to what people thought it would be; it wasn't written the way they expected it should be. I am not one who made a lot of predictions (because I'm really lousy at them!) and did not have a lot of expectations for how things were going to happen in the book, and I really enjoyed it, despite loose ends and "plot holes". Perhaps people who theorized more, were more invested in how they thought the book should go are having more "problems" with it. Thoughts?
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Magic Words - Aug 2, 2007 7:18 pm (#287 of 340)
Mediwitch, I'm sure that's part of it. I've tried to accept JKR's vision rather than measuring it against my own theories. The problem is that when you formulate theories, you're basing them off hints in the earlier books that you interpret as important foreshadowing. If those hints turn out to foreshadow something else, fine, but if they're ignored entirely, you feel a little cheated and wonder why JKR gave the hints in the first place. And I think the people with elaborate theories were in many cases the same ones who knew the books well enough that every dropped thread, even the ones that were so minor JKR simply forgot about them, stuck out like a sore thumb.
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wynnleaf - Aug 2, 2007 8:06 pm (#288 of 340)
I agree with Magic Words. I really didn't have a lot of theories for the future of the series. I thought Snape was loyal to Dumbledore and I had a few other theories about a couple of other characters. But in general, what I mainly did was search the previous books very carefully to try to guess at what was actually going on in those books, and what themes, character flaws, incidences, etc., might be important later.
Some things were so big and obvious that practically everyone seemed to wonder about them -- things like what Peter was doing at Spinners End for instance. Or how Dumbledore knew exactly what happened the night the Potters died. Or who the good Slytherins were.
It did make it a lot easier to see dropped threads. And if you know the ins and outs of how JKR had already said things worked, then you could really tell it when DH said something inconsistent with the previous books.
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Weeny Owl - Aug 2, 2007 9:33 pm (#289 of 340)
I wondered if the Slytherins whose families didn't support Voldemort had just not attended school that year.
Phineas said, "We Slytherins are brave, yes, but not stupid. For instance, given the choice, we will always choose to save our own necks."
I don't believe that all Slytherins, current or former students, were all supporters of Voldemort, but with their healthy interest in saving their own necks, they might have opted not to take too many risks.
I would also like to know how many Hufflepuffs were Death Eaters, because I've long thought that with loyalty being a basic character trait of theirs, any who sided with the blood purity thing would be extremely loyal to Voldemort.
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Phelim Mcintyre - Aug 3, 2007 1:41 am (#290 of 340)
Going back quickly to the person doing magic in later lafe - I know Jo forgot to put it in/chnaged her mind, but I still would like to know who she was thinking of performing that trick.
Weeny Owl - attendance at Hogwarts was compulsary for non-mugbloods.
What did the words on the snitch mean ("I open at the close")? My friend and I were discussing it, and neither one of us could figure it out.
Tazzygirl, I took it to mean, 'I open at the close of your life'. Dumbledore had enchanted the snitch so that it would open only when Harry was walking to what he thought was his death, so that he could use the resurrection stone inside to summon his dead parents and others, who would give him the support he was so badly in need of at the time.
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Anna L. Black - Jul 28, 2007 8:50 am (#232 of 340)
"As for the plot holes, can I add one more to your list? In Snape's memory of the forest conversation, Dumbledore asks Snape if he's giving Harry more detentions, and that he will soon have spent more time in detention than out. But up to that point, Snape has given Harry only one detention. It is only later, to punish him for Sectumsempra, that he gives him a number of detentions." - mona amon (I think )
You know, as I read it, I felt that Dumbledore was thinking about all the detentions Harry had to do for Umbridge. Maybe it's just me unwilling to see any plot holes in my favorite series, but I think it works.
EDITED to add unrelated thoughts:
I wanted to comment on the issue of all the Slytherins leaving the castle, that was mentioned in a couple of other threads as showing us that all Slytherins are basically Dark Arts/LV/DE supporters. I couldn't find a better thread, so I'll just post it here:
I don't think that the fact there were no young Slytherins left in Hogwarts shows that they're all supporting LV's cause (up to some point). I fell that it's due more to their selfishness, if I can call it that. Just like Phineas Nigellus tells us - given the choice, Slytherins will save their own neck, rather than staying and risking themselves. We can see that the older Slytherins, who have already faced life's difficulties, are making the opposite choice - Slughorn returning to defend the castle, Regulus drinking the potion himself and trying to make sure that the horcrux is destroyed, and of course, Snape doing all that he did. There's also Narcissa, but she was driven by a different motive.
I don't know how much this justifies what they did, but I just felt it's not really fair to refer to them as totally-Dark-side-supporters, because I don't believe that Jo meant it that way.
It feels wierd to defend the Slytherin house... Oh, well
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wynnleaf - Jul 28, 2007 12:45 pm (#233 of 340)
I don't think that the fact there were no young Slytherins left in Hogwarts shows that they're all supporting LV's cause (up to some point). I fell that it's due more to their selfishness, if I can call it that.
So either they're all into following Dark paths, or they're so selfish they'll allow the Wizarding World to completely fall to a Dark Lord. What's the real difference here? JKR could have had at least one or two willing to oppose LV, but she chose not to. I think we have to assume from her choice that Slytherin really is basically evil. I guess the Sorting Hat really can tell at age 11 who's going to be evil. I'm not sure what "choice" we're supposed to blame the Slytherin's for -- not begging the Hat to be placed elsewhere?
Once a kid gets sorted into Slytherin, we've now seen 7 books where not one turned out to follow Light. And we've seen plenty of evidence that starting at the Sorting, when other Houses hiss the newly sorted Slytherin 11 year olds, that they are disdained by the other 75% of the school.
It's no wonder, in my opinion, that the only "good" Slytherins are adults. They can't escape the Slytherin trap until they're out from under the shadow of Hogwarts.
I'm not sure what "choice" Slytherins have, while they are in school. Either befriend other Slytherins (who we can now be 99% sure will follow the Dark), or be completely alone because the rest of the school hates them. Why should the Wizarding World be surprised that an 18 year old, after 7 years in Slytherin would go anywhere but Dark? They've been effectively told they're going there for 7 years and given no other options while at Hogwarts -- no one willing to think a Slytherin could be anything, but Dark. The Wizarding World is sustaining a self-perpetuating cycle. I was really hoping that JKR would give us something in the series that would either tell us how wrong this was, or show us that really, in fact, all of Slytherin wasn't truly Dark and kids in Slytherin really did have positive choices available. She didn't show that.
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Prefect Marcus - Jul 28, 2007 12:48 pm (#234 of 340)
Didn't McGonagall basically tell all of the Slytherins to vacate the premises?
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Majikthise - Jul 28, 2007 2:05 pm (#235 of 340)
Edited Jul 28, 2007 4:10 pm
Anna L. Black wrote:
I don't think that the fact there were no young Slytherins left in Hogwarts shows that they're all supporting LV's cause (up to some point).
In their conversation in the Shrieking Shack (in either The Battle of Hogwarts or The Elder Wand, I can't be more precise because I've loaned my book), Voldemort tells Lucius that all Slytherins except Draco have joined his forces. While we know this an exaggeration (Crabbe and Goyle stayed in Hogwarts as well), it strongly suggests that at least most of the Slytherins joined up. So you might win your argument on a technicality (we still don't know that all of the young Slytherins supported Voldemort), but there certainly seems to be a strong correlation between being Slytherin and supporting Voldemort.
And this is one of my many disappointments with the book (or perhaps more accurately with the series). Despite the near constant negative portrayal of the members of Slytherin, I rather expected that in the end, most would chose to oppose Voldemort (i.e., that the Houses would unite). Instead, they all support Voldemort, or at best leave, and I remain puzzled why Slytherin House has not been abolished.
Perhaps Slytherin House is an allegory of the groups of nasty people that society is never without. But if that's the case, Harry is remarkably blase about the possibility that his son Albus might be sorted into Slytherin.
And this is what I really expected: That much in this series would never be resolved.
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Oruma - Jul 28, 2007 4:21 pm (#236 of 340)
Then again, look at it this way: only those students of age are allowed to stay and fight. Those students who are of age are in Harry's year, or sixth years----which means they're either Draco's mates, Pansy's amigas, or heavily under Draco's influence (he didn't drop out and is probably Head Boy of the year). It is quite logical that, as long as they are not directly threatened by the Dark Lord, Slytherins generally won't stick their necks out and risk their lives.
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Majikthise - Jul 28, 2007 4:56 pm (#237 of 340)
Prefect Marcus wrote:
Didn't McGonagall basically tell all of the Slytherins to vacate the premises?
One can read it that way, but one can also say that she told all of the Ravenclaws to leave as well. More significantly, from the passage that immediately preceeds this, one can argue that the Slytherins chose to be banished. In The Battle of Hogwarts, after Voldemort demands Harry, Pansy Parkinson stands, points at Harry, and yells to "grab him". The Gryffindors, followed by the Hufflepuffs and Ravenclaws, rise, face Parkinson, and pull out their wands. No Slytherin rises to Harry's defense.
To me this is the defining tableau: The Gryffindors, Hufflepuffs, and Ravenclaws standing on the feet to defend Harry and oppose Voldemort, and the Slytherins (excepting Parkinson) sitting on their hands.
Oruma wrote:
Then again, look at it this way: only those students of age are allowed to stay and fight. Those students who are of age are in Harry's year, or sixth years----which means they're either Draco's mates, Pansy's amigas, or heavily under Draco's influence (he didn't drop out and is probably Head Boy of the year). It is quite logical that, as long as they are not directly threatened by the Dark Lord, Slytherins generally won't stick their necks out and risk their lives.
The rot in Slytherin didn't start with Draco and Pansy. It didn't start with Riddle. It goes all the way back to its founder and his pure-blood philosophy.
As for it being "logical" not to oppose evil, I suspect that's not a lesson Rowling intended to convey. One might says it's understandable that self centered people will not oppose evil, but that makes them no less despicable.
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Chemyst - Jul 28, 2007 7:00 pm (#238 of 340)
What did the words on the snitch mean ("I open at the close")? My friend and I were discussing it, and neither one of us could figure it out. - Tazzy
Tazzygirl, I took it to mean, 'I open at the close of your life' - mona amon
Or perhaps more accurately, I open at the close of the Quest, since he became the Man who Lived, (being of age now and all.)
...it's understandable that self centered people will not oppose evil
Insofar as self-centeredness is an evil, they'd have to oppose themselves, wouldn't they?
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Tazzygirl - Jul 28, 2007 9:03 pm (#239 of 340)
Thanks Chemyst and Mona Amon! At first it didn't make sense, and then I had that brainwave thing. So having that and then you two coming in with your thoughts just made it sound better!
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Phoenix - Jul 29, 2007 7:58 am (#240 of 340)
The rot in Slytherin didn't start with Draco and Pansy. It didn't start with Riddle. It goes all the way back to its founder and his pure-blood philosophy. - Majikthise.
I agree totally with this statement. We also know that 54 years ago Tom Riddle, discovering his heritage, again began re-promoting the pure-blood mania within Slytherin to the extreme, opening the Chamber of Secrets and killing a 'mudblood'. He created a movement and took followers, and their children were raised to promote it -- generational predjudice. Snape clearly got caught up in it, which would be easy for him to do, as he needed something to glom onto for his self-esteem. And Snape did not help the situation either when he came to Hogwarts to teach. In SS/PS, before going into his class, Ron told Harry that Snape tends to favor his own. This is divisive in and of itself. At the end of SS/PS, the whole school celebrates Slytherin's downfall. Throughout the books, we see Snape demonstrating unfairness and bullying Gryffindors, continuing the separation between the houses. By doing this, Snape was encouraging the Slytherins to become 'bullies', mirroring his behavior. I have to wonder if Slughorn had been in charge, if we wouldn't have seen some Slytherins stand up for Harry.
I also agree wholeheartedly with the concept of 'choices' and the 'Slytherin trap', Wynnleaf. I think that was brilliant! Kids usually do not have a full understanding of the choices they are making. I think JKR points to this well when she shows us the resemblances between Draco and his father - and Draco's proud to be like his Dad and part of the Dark Arts. He does not understand until he and family become victims of it.
I do wish 19 years later, Albus Severus was not afraid to be chosen for Slytherin. But perhaps JKR was showing us the years it takes to undo predjudice that has been promoted for centuries, generation to generation. On a speculative note, perhaps Albus will go into Slytherin and help undo the damage? That would be so fitting!
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Reading muggle - Jul 29, 2007 3:24 pm (#241 of 340)
I found DH to be absolutely fascinating! It was a very entertaining roller-coaster of fun and emotion! I can understand the epilogue comments, as that area of writing could have covered so many different directions. I was thinking the epilogue would summarize the aftermath of the wizarding world and surviving characters (such as were the house elves freed, what happened to Umbridge, how long did Harry live, etc.). But JKR's version leaves plenty of room for possible story lines to come, just in case. I do wonder about the driving test Ron took - does that mean wizards were required to integrate more in the muggle world?
One other comment that I am surprised 240 posts have not touched on is the cover art! Neither Bloombury or Scholastic covers are good representations of the story. The Bloomsbury art is inaccurate by the lack of the Hufflepuff cup on the sword. And can anybody let me know from what scene is that wandless image of Harry and Voldemort on the Scholastic cover? That photo kept me waiting for that Department of Mysteries veil that never materialized. I see now that it is the Hogwart's great hall, but I still don't get it. I know it's just cover artwork, but still....
I kind of wish the Philosopher's Stone fit into Dumbledore's discussion with Harry during the King's Cross chapter, as that too, was another relating attempt at immortality.
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2BMcsmom - Jul 29, 2007 4:42 pm (#242 of 340)
Edited Jul 29, 2007 7:00 pm
When JKR said that not everyone would like this book she was very right. Maybe more so than she expected. If she was to read some of the post that have been made she would probably be telling herself "I knew it."
Everyone has made some good arguments. I do not deny that. But having just read the last 240 post from this thread alone, had I not been a big HP fan, I do not know that I would have read DH.
No, not everyone is going to like a book. No, not everyone is going to like every thing that was written in a book. But I must say that I never expected that DH would be picked apart as much as it has. Not meaning any offense to any one, but JKR has spent a big portion of her life giving us these treasures that we will get to have for as long as we want. Let us enjoy them for what they are. Very wonderful books that take the reader away on a fantastic journey to a truly marvelous make believe place. A place that can only ever be truly seen in the eye of the reader.
I guess that it is needles to say that I loved the book. The whole series even. There is more that I would like to know especially about some of the minor characters. I look at it as there is always a chance of JKR giving us more books on the wizarding world, other than just an encyclopedia.
I apologize in advance if I offended anyone. That was not my intent.
Edit: I forgot to mention that yes, there have been some great post in response to the book. A good many people do have a favorful(?) opinion about DH.
Edit 2: Thank You Choices. I had felt compelled to say what I did, but at the same time wondering if I was out of line.
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Choices - Jul 29, 2007 5:17 pm (#243 of 340)
2BMcsMom, I know exactly what you are saying. I think JKR is an amazing writer and I can not fault her one bit if she has left out something or gotten her math slightly wrong. I could not begin to do the job that she has done. If I wrote 7 connecting books, by the time I got to the end I would have the biggest jumbled mess on my hands - and I am an extremely organized person actually. I am totally in awe of this magical world that JKR has created and and so grateful that I found it and can visit there any time I want to. I love her characters, I love Hogwarts, I love all the magical locations, I love the interaction between the characters, I love how they make me laugh out loud and later, sob into my Kleenex. No, the book isn't perfect, but it sure comes close in my opinion, and I wouldn't dare to criticize JKR for some small imperfections, because there is no way under the sun that I could even come close to doing what she has done. Writing seven world wide best sellers is pretty darn amazing in my opinion and I plan to keep reading them for as long as I have sight in my eyes. I could wish for nothing more than to take my last breath while on some wonderful magical adventure with Harry Potter. I do hope I can go through King's Cross - I'll board the Hogwarts Express to go "on" and spend eternity at Hogwarts. Ah, that would be Heaven!
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haymoni - Jul 29, 2007 6:48 pm (#244 of 340)
I thought for sure that we would see Fawkes again.
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Magic Words - Jul 29, 2007 9:14 pm (#245 of 340)
Well of course, 2BMcsMom. Think about how long the book is, and how many issues are being picked apart here. Now think about what a huge percentage of the book isn't being picked apart because the fact that it was wonderful goes without saying.
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Esther Rose - Jul 30, 2007 6:24 am (#246 of 340)
Wynnleaf: To answer your question about Slytherins not joining the fight. It all boils down to the Kreatcher treatment incident, doesn't it? In all of the 6 books and up to this point Slytherins were not included or given the protection that the other houses gave to each other. They basically had to defend themselves. Whether there are "good" Slytherin students is almost moot at this point.
Put it this way. If I was ostracized because I was in a particular group and every one else did not support me or my group. I would be highly reluctant to answer the call when they ask me to join in the fight against whatever or whomever they were fighting.
Especially when said other group or groups have done nothing to gain my loyalty. Especially, for good or bad, they are fighting folks mainly from my ostracized group. Especially when they have not proven that they were willing an able to protect me should I aid them in their cause. Especially when it is my friends parents whom they might be at war with. And especially when if doing so would alienate me from the only group I had grown up with. (Remember, there is no promise of future friendship should I join.) Peer pressure is tough in the teen age years. Combine that with war.
The desire to leave must have been the only thing on Slytherin student's minds.
I would even go as to say Slytherin students must have wondered what potion got into the morning's pumkin juice when they were asked to join the war against Voldemort and his mostly Slytherin Graduate Death Eaters.
er... hmmmm... not that I plan on changing my Dress Robe colors or anything.
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Phoenix - Jul 30, 2007 10:07 am (#247 of 340)
2BMcsMOM and Choices, thank you for posting that - both were beautifully written. I'm finding as I'm going through the threads that I would rather talk about the wonder of JKR's works.
I've have a number of people in my family pass on, and there's not a day goes by I don't still feel their loss. But after reading Deathly Hallows, somehow I felt closer to them... I also had a close call with breast cancer a few years ago, and I can tell you, Harry's death scene is right on the money! JKR may have set the whole world in fantasy in her books, but so much hits home in reality. I am so grateful she wrote these books. I should have posted this in my 'thank you, Jo' note, but I was fearful. I will, though.
Choices, I am sorry if my posting came off offensive. It was truly never my intention. I think I've tried to hard...
Anyways, I love this thought:
I could wish for nothing more than to take my last breath while on some wonderful magical adventure with Harry Potter. I do hope I can go through King's Cross - I'll board the Hogwarts Express to go "on" and spend eternity at Hogwarts. Ah, that would be Heaven! - Choices
I couldn't help thinking of this quote:
"Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?" Dumbledore, Ch. 35., DH
Just curious - what scenes moved you both the most?
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M A Grimmett - Jul 30, 2007 1:11 pm (#248 of 340)
I didn't get the sense that many Ravenclaws stayed. I think it likely that many Slytherin students had parents tied somehow to Voldemort and didn't feel they could stay to fight; perhaps they just wanted to get the heck out of the fight. I also think the ostracism mentioned above might have had something to do with it. But I thought it interesting that few of the fighters came from Ravenclaw, not a bad house. Why wouldn't they stand and fight?
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Esther Rose - Jul 30, 2007 1:20 pm (#249 of 340)
M A Grimmett: I think they just didn't have the same connection with Harry/Griffindors as the Hufflepuff House did. I'd imagine that, of the Hufflepuffs, it was probably mostly those who remembered Cedric that stayed behind.
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Sparrowhawk - Jul 30, 2007 1:42 pm (#250 of 340)
Also, a sense of loyalty and friendship, as well as resilience and steadfastness, are typical Hufflepuff qualities. Ravenclaws appear altogether more distant, and their intellectual ability certainly outshadows their fighting spirit (wasn't it already the case with Dumbledore's Army? I should check...)
Maybe JKR has also made another parallel with the rise of nazism and WWII, when many intellectuals chose to flee Germany, rather than stay and fight to death...
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Verity Weasley - Jul 30, 2007 2:58 pm (#251 of 340)
With regards to the earlier comment about the cover art, I think the Bloomsbury cover was a very good representation of the scene at Gringotts. The fact that many forumers correctly guessed that it showed the trio bursting out of a vault at Gringotts with Griphook speaks volumes about it's accuracy. I have no problem with the cup not being on the sword. At the point when the trio spill out the door, Harry has already taken the cup off the sword and put it in his pocket. It would have been a bit of a giveaway to include it!
I agree that the Scholastic cover was much vaguer and not such an accurate depiction of the scene. I'm guessing that it shows Harry reaching for Voldie's wand, having just disarmed him, but where Harry's wand is, I have no idea. And look at the size of that pouch around his neck. Judging by what he kept in there it must have had similar qualitites to Hermione's beaded bag, but that was never suggested.
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Choices - Jul 30, 2007 4:26 pm (#252 of 340)
Phoenix - "Choices, I am sorry if my posting came off offensive."
Dear, dear Phoenix. It didn't. Everyone is entitled to express their particular opinion - their personal take on things. I enjoyed your posts and appreciate your comments.
I think the digging of Dobby's grave moved me the most, but I have to confess I used more than a few Kleenex while reading this last book. Hedwig, Dobby, Snape, Fred, Harry and Dumbledore together......so many losses.
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Phoenix - Jul 30, 2007 9:40 pm (#253 of 340)
Those were truly tearjerkers. I started a re-read, and got choked up again when Harry was talking to Hedwig. Regarding Snape, I hated to see him die like that. But, I was very happy to learn that he loved -- a true love, a sacraficial love. I believe his love for Lily acted as a 'tether' to a positive place on the other side. His ability to care for others was limited, but it seemed the longer he was on the right side and exposed to Dumbledore, he was evolving. Despite was JKR said, he definitely cared for Dumbledore, he was happy for McGonagall when she recovered from the stun hexes, he cared about Draco, and had compassion for Narcissa. If he had more time, who knows?
On a more positive note, Kreacher actually surprised me. I don't think anyone saw much hope for him. --Just an old, bitter, hateful house elf. Some saw this scene as "corny", saying that all they had to do is be nice to him and he changed. But Hermione tried to be kind, with no effect. It wasn't until Harry asked him about Regulus and addressed the issue that was most important to him, that he responded. - That's true for anyone. It's interesting that S.P.E.W. never got off the ground. But JKR clearly shows the way to truly effect change.
Dumbledore's death is what drew me to the Forum. I was so upset, and no one I know is into HP, so I started searching websites. Obviously, I liked this one the best. In DH, I loved the King's Cross scene, where he's explaining everything to Harry (like he is supposed to at the end of each book!). This scene and the lead up to it where Harry is walking with those passed on, it makes you feel like they are not so far away. -Like Luna said in OotP when Sirius died.
-- I think the Kleenex industry had a spike in sales after DH came out! (and I'm glad I didn't offend!)
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wynnleaf - Jul 30, 2007 9:56 pm (#254 of 340)
Esther Rose, I agree completely.
On another note...
JKR's series of books has been read by millions and millions of people and -- here we are examples -- it has strongly affected the lives and thoughts of huge numbers of people.
No, I don't think books that have so affected people should have their faults, most especially those that touch on important ideas and concerns, glossed over, just because the writing was also enjoyable and fun.
I enjoyed Deathly Hallows. It was a cracking good read. But it also ended a series of several thousand pages with some big questions left unresolved. I don't want to avoid those questions, just because I had fun reading.
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Good Evans - Jul 30, 2007 11:54 pm (#255 of 340)
Not strictly correct to post this here - but I couldn't find anywhere else!!!
Happy belated to Neville and Happy birthday to Harry! It is nice to see that JKR intends to continue with the birthday mentions.
Were we right about the birthdays only being mentioned for those who survive, or am I right in thinking that the twins used to get a mentuion?????
If mods think this should be moved, feel free to do so, it isn't strictly about the book, but the relevant threads are still closed on the main site, and I was not about to post it on the chat thread!!
Julie
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Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 31, 2007 3:27 am (#256 of 340)
That also means we should have a new wizard of the month tomorrow - Rowena Ravenclaw or Harry Potter?
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M A Grimmett - Jul 31, 2007 6:00 am (#257 of 340)
I'm doing a reread of the series now that the last book is out--it's extremely satisfying! I love that Jo is trying to give us more answers in her interviews. I thought it was funny that in one interview, she said that Ron was an Auror like Harry, but in a web q&a, she says he went to work with George. Somehow I like the second possibility better than the first!
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Mrs Brisbee - Jul 31, 2007 6:04 am (#258 of 340)
Me too. I can see Ron and George getting along. And the business being a bit more responsible for the kinds of items they sell (no more love potions, for one!).
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 31, 2007 9:33 am (#259 of 340)
I can see WWW providing materiel to Aurors such as Peruvian Instant Darkness Powder and Communication Coins to the reformed Aurors Division with Ron serving as the liason.
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Mrs Brisbee - Jul 31, 2007 9:41 am (#260 of 340)
Nathan, you deserve 50 points to your house for marrying together Rowling's conflicting reports about what Ron did after school (I hope Rowling uses this)!
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haymoni - Jul 31, 2007 4:52 pm (#261 of 340)
So what are the 12 uses for dragon's blood?
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Phelim Mcintyre - Aug 1, 2007 2:33 am (#262 of 340)
Who is the important classified spouse? Who was going to use magic late in life? I still have unanswered questions. Hopefully this will be the next book (encyclopedia).
As to Ron being an auror, I agree with Nathan. WWW supplied basic shielding equipment to the ministry. I wouldn't be suprised if Ron became a member of the Dark Arts Defence League, the Wizenmagot and most of the other areas of fighting the dark arts open to him without being an auror (especially with a wife who joins the Department of Magical Law Enforcement) and uses WWW as a cover to develop equipment for the aurors. A wizarding Q type person.
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M A Grimmett - Aug 1, 2007 6:13 am (#263 of 340)
I can just see Harry strolling into WWW with the kids, turning them loose, and going into the back room with Ron..."Let me show you the latest in Dark Magic detectors..." What would be a good number for Harry to have? 002, as he's survived the Killing Curse twice?
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Phelim Mcintyre - Aug 1, 2007 6:56 am (#264 of 340)
Imagining Ron as Q "Listen carefully Potter, try not to destroy the broomstick this time."
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Thom Matheson - Aug 1, 2007 7:28 am (#265 of 340)
Phelm, take a moment to read the interview with Jo. She said that there is no one with later in life magic. She changed her mind. Ginny before settling down with a family played for the Harpies, and Ron went and partnered with George.
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Choices - Aug 1, 2007 9:54 am (#266 of 340)
Phelim - "Who was going to use magic late in life?"
In the Webchat, JKR says she simply forgot about that. She said originally she planned to have it be a student who comes to Hogwarts after developing magic or something to that effect, but then it just slipped her mind.
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journeymom - Aug 1, 2007 11:48 am (#267 of 340)
My review, currently. I'm torn. Of two minds. I loved parts of it, especially Harry and Voldemort's final show down.
I loathed the Wandering in the Forrest for Fourty Days and Fourty Nights. It was boring. I just wonder if they could have twiddled their thumbs and Ron could have lost faith in Harry off camera. Did I really have to slog through all that to get the point?
So many questions left unanswered! So many!
I loath Snape's death. That he died I was certain would happen. Just not like that.
The epilogue read like fan fiction. Albus Severus Potter? Sorry, that's over the top. Though to be honest, while I was disappointed that JKR chose to name him Albus Severus, I was bawling my eyes out. "Oh, my gosh, that's so sweet!" *sob!* "He finally recognized Snape's worth!" *sniffle!*
The whole thing felt tremendously rushed and cobbled together. Yes, packed with action, lots of questions answered. But also, it felt like JKR was writing in a frenzy.
That the story didn't include daily life at Hogwarts I guess threw me for a loop. That's ok, but it took a while to get used to.
Parts of it were brilliant. But over all, as of now, I'm disappointed. I've never been disappointed with a HP book. Perhaps after a re-read I'll appreciate it more.
[Ducks the rotten tomatoes being hurtled at me]
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Luna Logic - Aug 1, 2007 12:48 pm (#268 of 340)
Edited by Aug 1, 2007 1:50 pm
Journeyom I was disappointed like you during some days after my first reading.
But it was only due to the end of my reading.
During the two first third of the book I was enthusiastic, enthralled by action, plot and characters, event he camping of the Trio! I liked every single paragraph (except Lupin?s treatment!) and was praising aloud very often the wording and the concision ? and the humour ! - of the writing.
My feelings did change exactly when the Trio leaves the run, and the forest, and the dragon, to put foot in Hogsmeade. From that point I found many events disappointing - except the whole part concerning Harry, Voldemort, Kings Cross and the wands. (I didn't understand all, but I like to not understand and having to think it over !
I didn?t understand my last feeling? Then I began to read the Forum, and re-reread the book..., alternatively. And the interview and the chat. And I had some discussions with others readers.
I think I have understood now my disappointment : I had to much imagined the Hogwarts part of DH: I had given a precise role in my mind to all the characters, Aberforth in first, then Snape of course, Slughorn, McGonagall, Flitwick, the students, the ghosts, the Founders statues, the secret rooms, etc. etc. I was waiting them to play my scenario ! But it was another scenario, the Author?s one ! Another point of view, and not again a student point of view. We were, like Harry, Ron and Hermione, outside Howgarts word, coming back as outsiders... I had to forget Hogwarts and the school days... Hogwarts in DH is only the scene of the last battle.
Today I just read the 267 posts before mine... I enjoys them all, as the book. I have no more reticence about the book, about the end, about Hogwarts role in DH... and it's a very good feeling. So I'm joining wholehearted with the Thank you Jo Rowling's lot!
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TomProffitt - Aug 1, 2007 4:27 pm (#269 of 340)
Many posts ago I put forth the question/statement asking whether or not Harry killed anyone. I didn't think that he had, but wasn't certain if he had knocked anyone from their broom on the flight from Little Whinging. Thanks for those that pointed out that he did. We, however, don't know whether or not any of them died. We know that one DE knocked from a broom was rescued by another, and we also know that wizards are significantly more resilient than muggles. I actually won't be bothered at all if Harry had killed one, I just thought it might have been symbolic on Rowling's part.
I've noticed over the course of the books that some of Rowling's "plot holes" aren't exactly plot holes. I haven't followed the alchemy thread in detail, but much of what happens and is witnessed is referenced to Alchemy Symbols. We have scenes occurring in The Forbidden Forest that would make more sense elsewhere, we have things take place at specific times of year for symbolic reference, and so on. Sometimes a "plot hole" isn't a plot hole, it's a symbol.
This "symbol" explanation is part of the reason no Slytherin student stays behind for the final battle. Of course many of things done at Hogwarts and in the Wizarding World are terribly wrong, but they have symbolic value in the story line. I'm reluctant to nit-pick Rowling as I don't follow all of her symbolism very well.
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Choices - Aug 1, 2007 6:04 pm (#270 of 340)
Tom, I'm certainly no Alchemy genius - truth be told, I would probably fall somewhere in the Troll range, but what you say is true about the "plot holes". What appear to be plot holes are actually plot mountains, if you just understand the alchemical symbolism. I just know that when we think JKR has made a mistake, she hasn't.
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totyle - Aug 1, 2007 6:51 pm (#271 of 340)
I'm not really sure of what I'm about to say so am hoping people will bear with me.
The WW were forced to retreat into their own world of secrecy to remain undetected by Muggles. They formed communities of their own (such as Hogsmead) or remained within Muggle communities but in secrecy. I'm thinking it must've been an easier life for blood traitors and half bloods to mingle with Muggles and blend in hence having an easier life style compared to pure bloods who had to limit their expansion and confine themselves to the WW community only.
Perhaps it was this past perceived persecution on pure bloods that motivated this LV pure blood drive? We know that Muggles did burn wizards and witches in the past? So perhaps LV thought this was the Muggles/blood traitors/half bloods turn for reckoning?
I dont know if that made sense and yes I know having said all that someone's going to say but LV was a Half Blood.....its just that Im trying to understand LV's motivation...weird though it sounds!
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Solitaire - Aug 1, 2007 11:45 pm (#272 of 340)
Esther Rose - In all of the 6 books and up to this point Slytherins were not included or given the protection that the other houses gave to each other. They basically had to defend themselves.
I think there is a reason, Esther Rose. Unlike the other houses, we do not see students of Slytherin attempt to make friends outside their house. As far as I can remember, Snape and Lily are the only example we have seen of friendship between a Slytherin and a student from another house ... and we must remember that their friendship was established before they went to Hogwarts. If the Pure-blood garbage we hear spewed by the likes of Draco and Blaise Zabini is representative of what other Slytherins are saying, it is only natural that the other houses might try to protect themselves from such hatred.
While Slytherins were not invited to join the DA, I think the kids were afraid they would rat them out to Umbridge. And whom did Umbridge choose for her little Inquisitorial Squad (aka Death Nibblers)? Slytherin kids.
In the last Voldemort war, most of the DEs did seem to come from Slytherin. We know there were Slytherins who weren't DEs--Slughorn, for one. Snape and Regulus both defected ... but they still joined in the first place. I think people were afraid to trust anyone with a Slytherin background. Even so, the Trio did save Draco. It took fear for her son to bring Narcissa to the point of trusting and lying for Harry. Those two actions went a long way toward breaking down the barriers, I think.
Harry's revelation of Snape's role in bringing down Voldemort will probably be shown (in Jo's future encyclopedia) to have had an enormous impact in helping to reunite the houses. I agree with the poster who said that little Albus Severus's fear of Slytherin is simply a testament to how long it takes to erase old prejudices and fears.
Bottom line for me? If Slytherins have felt isolated, as though kids from other houses have not "had their backs," I think it has been chiefly their own doing. They have chosen over the years to separate themselves from the other houses. Hopefully, that day is now over.
Solitaire
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Magic Words - Aug 2, 2007 6:55 am (#273 of 340)
This "symbol" explanation is part of the reason no Slytherin student stays behind for the final battle.
If you say there's something alchemical about this, I guess I'll have to accept it because from what I've seen of HP alchemical symbolism, it's not worth the hours I would have to take to try to understand it. The reason I'm disappointed with this part is that I was so sure JKR would use as a symbol of the exact opposite--how at least one or two Slytherins join the battle and allow us to say the houses are now in unity.
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Weeny Owl - Aug 2, 2007 7:09 am (#274 of 340)
I dont know if that made sense and yes I know having said all that someone's going to say but LV was a Half Blood.....its just that Im trying to understand LV's motivation...weird though it sounds!
I always thought that Voldemort hated Muggles and Muggleborns because of his father but at the same time hated Purebloods because his Pureblood mother left him in an orphanage and never bothered to make arrangements for him to grow up with a wizarding family.
He might want to kill those who are not Pureblood, but he isn't any kinder to Purebloods, even his own Death Eaters.
It seems to me that he simply uses what he feels will give him power, and being Slytherin's heir, knowing that many Purebloods want those who are not out of the wizarding world, and being willing to do nearly anything to achieve that goal, he simply uses anyone and anything to make himself more powerful.
He is a half-blood, but he tries to deny that part of him.
I could picture him gleefully killing anyone who isn't a Pureblood, while at the same time thrilled at having Purebloods as his servants. One side represents his hated father, while the other side represents the mother who never saw to it that he grew up knowing that he was a wizard.
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journeymom - Aug 2, 2007 8:22 am (#275 of 340)
I've noticed over the course of the books that some of Rowling's "plot holes" aren't exactly plot holes. I haven't followed the alchemy thread in detail, but much of what happens and is witnessed is referenced to Alchemy Symbols. We have scenes occurring in The Forbidden Forest that would make more sense elsewhere, we have things take place at specific times of year for symbolic reference, and so on. Sometimes a "plot hole" isn't a plot hole, it's a symbol.
This "symbol" explanation is part of the reason no Slytherin student stays behind for the final battle. Of course many of things done at Hogwarts and in the Wizarding World are terribly wrong, but they have symbolic value in the story line. I'm reluctant to nit-pick Rowling as I don't follow all of her symbolism very well. TomProffitt
Tom, I'm certainly no Alchemy genius - truth be told, I would probably fall somewhere in the Troll range, but what you say is true about the "plot holes". What appear to be plot holes are actually plot mountains, if you just understand the alchemical symbolism. I just know that when we think JKR has made a mistake, she hasn't. Choices
If you say there's something alchemical about this, I guess I'll have to accept it because from what I've seen of HP alchemical symbolism, it's not worth the hours I would have to take to try to understand it. The reason I'm disappointed with this part is that I was so sure JKR would use as a symbol of the exact opposite--how at least one or two Slytherins join the battle and allow us to say the houses are now in unity. Magic Words
Totally agreed with Magic Words. I guess I don't get it. I was so disappointed that no Slytherin student stepped up and truly, sincerely, genuinely joined with the rest of the houses to protect Hogwarts from invaders. I suppose I should have known it would be this way when in HBP Zabini turned out to be nothing more than a 'poser' and Theodore Nott was a tiny character who had nothing good to say.
Maybe JKR will explain the alchemy symbolism in the HP stories in her encyclopedia.
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TomProffitt - Aug 2, 2007 12:34 pm (#276 of 340)
journeymom, I think another thing that goes along with Rowling is that she is much more of a realist than an idealist. While it would be nice if Hogwarts united the Four Houses and everyone stood up to Riddle, that's not the way the world tends to work. If the Houses were selected by other standards than the ones Rowling chose, we might have had a Union of the Houses at the End. But, alas, earwax.
Gryffindor represents Truth and Bravery and thus has an unusually high number of Volunteers to the battle. Hufflepuff represents loyalty and naturally they would have the next largest number of volunteers. Ravenclaw represents Intellect, its members who stayed to fight did so because they reasoned the battle necessary and their own contributions to be of value.
The Slytherins don't represent values that are going to place them in harms way without significant reward. This is absolutely an absurd way to single out a quarter of your schools population, but it has a symbolic reference in Rowling's story. If a person chooses to nit-pick this kind of thing, it is only natural they will find a lot they dislike, because Rowling put these "flaws" in the story on purpose, not by mistake.
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journeymom - Aug 2, 2007 12:51 pm (#277 of 340)
Tom, you are no doubt correct, but I'm still having a difficult time getting my head around it. What was alchemically significant about the fact that no Slytherin student willingly stood up for Hogwarts? Did Hogwarts contain too much mercury? Was it too watery? Too green?
I think I must have missed the point entirely. I was looking for balance, thinking that Hogwarts needed contributions from all four houses in order to fight off Voldemort. That doesn't necessarily fit with Carl Jung's individuation theme.
I'll have to continue this over at the alchemy thread.
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legolas returns - Aug 2, 2007 12:55 pm (#278 of 340)
Slughorn was there at the end of the battle-He fought Voldemort. ADmittedly McGonagall had to tell him what was what in a previous chapter.
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journeymom - Aug 2, 2007 2:07 pm (#279 of 340)
Correct, Legolas, that's why I specified that no Slytherin student stood up for Hogwarts. Slughorn made his contribution. He does seem to be the only pleasant, true-green Slytherin. Jolly yet self-serving. And Snape, our anti-hero.
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legolas returns - Aug 2, 2007 2:16 pm (#280 of 340)
I thought Andromeda was a slytherin as well because Slughorn said all the Blacks except Sirius were in his house. She married a muggleborn-directly going against her family and ethos of her house. Admittedly her contribution was at the begining of the book and staying at home to mind her Grandchild.
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journeymom - Aug 2, 2007 2:23 pm (#281 of 340)
Yes, another Slytherin! Good point. But she wasn't a student.
Luna Logic is right. I'm disappointed because JKR didn't write the book the way I expected. I got it into my head, it was set in stone, that Hogwarts would go through some sort of transformation that would mirror Harry's transformation, and that because of it Harry would benefit from a whole, healed, well balanced Hogwarts. I suppose Draco barely qualifies. He accidentally helped Harry. Even so, as Ron said, he was a two-faced bastard.
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Choices - Aug 2, 2007 2:28 pm (#282 of 340)
I have wondered if one reason Harry saved Draco was because he felt guilty for using the Sectumsentra curse on Draco and nearly killed him.
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TomProffitt - Aug 2, 2007 3:01 pm (#283 of 340)
I always interpreted the Sorting Hat's plea for a united Hogwarts coupled with Nearly Headless Nick's comments as the kind of speeches you get from those hoping to avoid war. It wasn't a plea to unite to fight the war, but a plea to avoid it.
I never considered it to be a realistic hope as those willing to push a people into war aren't interested in tolerance. We saw Dumbledore reaching out to the Giants, Durmstrang, and Beaubatons in an effort to unify wizarding kind, but there was no moderation on the part of Lord Voldemort & the Death Eaters. Unification of the Houses was a lost cause almost before the books started.
So I was neither surprised nor disappointed that the Houses didn't unite. I never expected it.
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legolas returns - Aug 2, 2007 3:01 pm (#284 of 340)
I think it was due to the way Harry saw Voldemort treating Draco/Dracos reaction that probably resulted in Harry saving him.
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wynnleaf - Aug 2, 2007 6:47 pm (#285 of 340)
Until JKR says that all the Slytherins went over to Voldemort as some higher symbol of something more important than showing that people really can't be judged "evil" at age 11, I really don't think I buy it.
After all, JKR did tell us that the 4 houses represented the 4 elements. She had the Hat declare that unity was necessary for victory. Yet in the end, unity was achieved with deep divisions still there. And the stereotype of Slytherin -- most exemplified to me by Fred and George hissing just sorted 11 year olds in GOF with no one apparently batting an eye -- has been basically legitimized as true.
Many readers have tried to say that surely not all the Slytherins went to help Voldemort, or if they did it wasn't necessarily because they supported him. Maybe.
Thing is, a book must stand on it's on, and not have to be explained by the author's answering important and key plot point questions in interviews. And no book should have crucial questions and problems left to be explained away by readers working to force an answer in between the pages of the text when it isn't actually there.
There really are plot holes all over DH. And there are huge continuity errors - seriously more than all the other books combined. That doesn't mean JKR wrote a bad book. It means it was very poorly edited and revised, probably due to a rush to get it out in keeping with a filmmaking schedule. After all, the filmmakers want to get DH out in a timely manner after HBP. They didn't want to have another year or more in between. But that's probably what DH really needed in terms of editing and revision.
Does anyone seriously think that a book of this length and complexity usually goes to the editors and goes through an entire process of editing and revision in just a few months??
There's a lot to like about Deathly Hallows. But there's a great many holes and inconsistencies. And the loose threads left hanging are all over the place. It's really sort of sad, in my opinion, because what is a really wonderful read for the first or second time may not hold up over many re-reads like the other books have done.
Besides that, this series asked a lot of questions about good and evil, the way we judge others, how we respond to challenges, other people, etc. The sad thing is that many of the topics that appeared to be addressed in the earlier books got dropped.
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Mediwitch - Aug 2, 2007 7:11 pm (#286 of 340)
It's interesting to read about people's different perceptions of the book. I have noticed the comment made a couple of times that the book didn't match up to what people thought it would be; it wasn't written the way they expected it should be. I am not one who made a lot of predictions (because I'm really lousy at them!) and did not have a lot of expectations for how things were going to happen in the book, and I really enjoyed it, despite loose ends and "plot holes". Perhaps people who theorized more, were more invested in how they thought the book should go are having more "problems" with it. Thoughts?
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Magic Words - Aug 2, 2007 7:18 pm (#287 of 340)
Mediwitch, I'm sure that's part of it. I've tried to accept JKR's vision rather than measuring it against my own theories. The problem is that when you formulate theories, you're basing them off hints in the earlier books that you interpret as important foreshadowing. If those hints turn out to foreshadow something else, fine, but if they're ignored entirely, you feel a little cheated and wonder why JKR gave the hints in the first place. And I think the people with elaborate theories were in many cases the same ones who knew the books well enough that every dropped thread, even the ones that were so minor JKR simply forgot about them, stuck out like a sore thumb.
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wynnleaf - Aug 2, 2007 8:06 pm (#288 of 340)
I agree with Magic Words. I really didn't have a lot of theories for the future of the series. I thought Snape was loyal to Dumbledore and I had a few other theories about a couple of other characters. But in general, what I mainly did was search the previous books very carefully to try to guess at what was actually going on in those books, and what themes, character flaws, incidences, etc., might be important later.
Some things were so big and obvious that practically everyone seemed to wonder about them -- things like what Peter was doing at Spinners End for instance. Or how Dumbledore knew exactly what happened the night the Potters died. Or who the good Slytherins were.
It did make it a lot easier to see dropped threads. And if you know the ins and outs of how JKR had already said things worked, then you could really tell it when DH said something inconsistent with the previous books.
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Weeny Owl - Aug 2, 2007 9:33 pm (#289 of 340)
I wondered if the Slytherins whose families didn't support Voldemort had just not attended school that year.
Phineas said, "We Slytherins are brave, yes, but not stupid. For instance, given the choice, we will always choose to save our own necks."
I don't believe that all Slytherins, current or former students, were all supporters of Voldemort, but with their healthy interest in saving their own necks, they might have opted not to take too many risks.
I would also like to know how many Hufflepuffs were Death Eaters, because I've long thought that with loyalty being a basic character trait of theirs, any who sided with the blood purity thing would be extremely loyal to Voldemort.
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Phelim Mcintyre - Aug 3, 2007 1:41 am (#290 of 340)
Going back quickly to the person doing magic in later lafe - I know Jo forgot to put it in/chnaged her mind, but I still would like to know who she was thinking of performing that trick.
Weeny Owl - attendance at Hogwarts was compulsary for non-mugbloods.
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Overview for Those Who Have Finished the Book (Continued)
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wynnleaf - Aug 3, 2007 4:04 am (#291 of 340)
Good point Pheligm
All of the Slytherins had to be there. And after they left the school, Voldemort said that they all came to fight for him. They may have felt they had to fight for him, but if so it wouldn't have a lot to do with saving their own necks, because plenty of people apparently died on both sides.
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Weeny Owl - Aug 3, 2007 4:23 am (#292 of 340)
Attendance may have been compulsory, but that doesn't mean everyone attended. People could have left the country or gone into hiding.
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Luna Logic - Aug 3, 2007 4:52 am (#293 of 340)
Edited by Aug 3, 2007 5:52 am
Mediwitch : I am not one who made a lot of predictions (because I'm really lousy at them!) and did not have a lot of expectations for how things were going to happen in the book, and I really enjoyed it, despite loose ends and "plot holes". Perhaps people who theorized more, were more invested in how they thought the book should go are having more "problems" with it. Thoughts?
Exactly ! I had made many theories, in particular about what had happened at Godrics Hollow , and what had to happen at Hogwarts. And, strangely, I accepted in my first reading all about GH, and not all about Hogwarts ! But a week or two later, all is well for me (thanks to Forum's discussions...)
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Mediwitch - Aug 3, 2007 10:07 am (#294 of 340)
wynnleaf: But in general, what I mainly did was search the previous books very carefully to try to guess at what was actually going on in those books, and what themes, character flaws, incidences, etc., might be important later.
That's exactly what I meant. If you put a lot of effort into predicting what would happen based on what you saw as evidence, but then Jo didn't handle the topic the way you expected, it must be, well, frustrating (for lack of a better word). I'm pretty literal about things (must come from working with kids with autism! ), so I don't attempt to guess what information is evidence and what it will lead to in the books. Sometimes I wonder, but mostly I enjoy looking back after and realizing, "Ah! She got me on that one!" Who could have guessed that after the brief mention of Sirius Black in SS/PS, he could turn into a pivotal character? Maybe some of you could, and maybe by this time I could, but that's how we got all worked up over Mark Evans, isn't it? I just think those who guessed at what textual information was important and tried to predict how Jo would use it had a different experience with this book than those who didn't do so much of that. *shrugs*
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Chemyst - Aug 3, 2007 11:18 am (#295 of 340)
Phelim asks:- "Who was going to use magic late in life?"
Choices' reply: In the Webchat, JKR says she simply forgot about that. She said originally she planned to have it be a student who comes to Hogwarts after developing magic or something to that effect, but then it just slipped her mind.
If it turns out we got Luna instead, I'm happy she changed her mind.
I loathed the Wandering in the Forrest for Forty Days and Forty Nights. It was boring. I just wonder if they could have twiddled their thumbs and Ron could have lost faith in Harry off camera. Did I really have to slog through all that to get the point? – Journeymom
Hm? well, there you go; I thought it added realism. Hurry up and wait. And wait... and wait.
I always interpreted the Sorting Hat's plea for a united Hogwarts coupled with Nearly Headless Nick's comments as the kind of speeches you get from those hoping to avoid war. It wasn't a plea to unite to fight the war, but a plea to avoid it. – Tom Proffitt
I'm thinking that Sorting Hat could benefit from a few sessions of therapy. He is entirely too rigid. It is a miracle that Harry actually stood up to him (figuratively, since he was seated on the stool) and said, "Not Slytherin." When the Hat complains about how the houses are not united, he doesn't have a leg to stand on (literally, this time) because he was the one who decided who should be where in the first place. It is his fixated compulsion that puts Earth into one house and Water another; he could muddy things up if he wanted to. What are they going to do to him? Pop a stitch? Doesn't he get choices too?
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Weeny Owl - Aug 3, 2007 11:23 am (#296 of 340)
You're totally cracking me up, Chemyst.
I never did like the way the houses were divided. I would hope that one day Hogwarts would do something different such as keep all first years together throughout their entire school lives.
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mona amon - Aug 3, 2007 4:37 pm (#297 of 340)
LOL! Chemyst, I totally agree about the Sorting Hat!
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Solitaire - Aug 3, 2007 6:18 pm (#298 of 340)
I was so sure JKR would use as a symbol of the exact opposite--how at least one or two Slytherins join the battle and allow us to say the houses are now in unity.
But she did show us Slytherins in battle. Slughorn was fighting ... and Narcissa Malfoy certainly helped Harry.
I don't think we know for certain that Andromeda was a Slytherin. Slughorn could have been exaggerating when he said that. Given his tendency to bloviate, I think it is a distinct possibility.
Choices, I think Harry saved Draco because he realized, perhaps, that Draco had gotten in so far and now did not know how to get away without risking his own and his parents' lives--much as Regulus before him had done. I think, too, that he must have been affected by seeing how Voldemort treated the Malfoys in their own home ... even though no love was lost between him and the Malfoys. We also know that Harry was horrified when he realized what the Sectumsempra was. I do not think he had any intention of seriously injuring Draco that time.
you feel a little cheated and wonder why JKR gave the hints in the first place.
The writing process is a very "organic" thing, and sometimes stories may turn out a bit differently than the author's original intent. This can't help being true in a story which stretches across 7 novels. I don't think Jo deliberately dangled things which wouldn't ever be told ... I think she just made a few changes in her course over the period of years it took her to write Harry's story.
given the choice, we will always choose to save our own necks.
Snape certainly gave up his life. Then again, I suppose the chain of choices and vows he made throughout his lifetime eventually tightened the noose to the point where he had no choice.
Like Mediwitch, I enjoyed the book. Yes, there are things I'd like to know that were not explained ... but maybe we will never know these things. Then again, maybe Jo is leaving the door open to write a future story. She may feel she is done with Harry now--and who can blame her after all the years she has invested--but I believe she has plenty of potential story lines to pursue ... and I hope she does pursue them.
Solitaire
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Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 3, 2007 9:45 pm (#299 of 340)
I wonder whether Crabbe through his destruction of the diadem and his unexpected death inadvertently redeemed Slytherin House without realizing it because, he did help to destroy Voldemort through his actions albeit unintentionally?
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Thom Matheson - Aug 4, 2007 5:15 am (#300 of 340)
Would that then be also true of Lucius?
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Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 4, 2007 7:35 am (#301 of 340)
Thom, I would argue that Lucius and Narcissa's actions were intentional because, by time of the Battle at Hogwarts I would argue that as power hungry as he was began to understand that continued service to Voldemort would at the very best outcome entail servitude or slavery because of his failures, while, dealing death to Draco.
In the end the Malfoy's love for Draco and the desire to preserve their family led them to conceal the truth about Harry due in part to Harry's rescue of Draco from the Fiendyfire.
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Thom Matheson - Aug 4, 2007 7:42 am (#302 of 340)
Nathan, I was referring to the accidential distruction of the diary, as in the accidential distruction of the diadum. You are right about the Malfoy's though, I think. Seeing the end of family spun them around to assist Harry in Voldemort's end. You could argue that Narcissa should get an assist for the end of Voldemort. Without her help, things might again have been different. I am amazed at the final head count or turnarounds. It seems that only Bella was actually ready to die in Voldemort's service. The Slytherin truth of "save yourself" certainly came out.
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Prefect Marcus - Aug 4, 2007 8:03 am (#303 of 340)
In my mind, the final "redemption" of the Malfoys came during the climatic battle when they were hunting for Draco to the exclusion of all else. There they were, in the midst of that huge battle, searching high and low for Draco.
Think about it. From the time that Neville sliced off Nagini's head, the battle's outcome was pretty much decided. Voldemort's army was badly outnumbered. They were trapped on a battlefield they could not just disapparate from. They were just overwhelmed.
The Malfoys were very prominent followers of Voldemort. They were prime targets to be mowed down with the rest of them. Yet they took no thought for their own safety. Their only concern was for their son, Draco.
Nasty pieces of work they certainly were, yet you have to respect them for that.
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Thom Matheson - Aug 4, 2007 8:07 am (#304 of 340)
Also remember Marcus that neither had a wand. That might make some difference, although I concur with your thought. But, Slytherins will be Slytherins.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 4, 2007 8:19 am (#305 of 340)
Thom, Lucius would get an assist in the destruction of diary because, he did not destroy it himself but, his actions led to its destruction by Harry.
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Prefect Marcus - Aug 4, 2007 9:02 am (#306 of 340)
If a person finds himself in the middle of a battle without a weapon, he usually has four options open to him -- run, hide, surrender, or get a new weapon. The later is usually not that difficult to accomplish in the middle of the battlefield's chaos.
With all their deatheater buddies getting mowed down right and left, and the occasional opposition member getting laid low, the Malfoys would have had little difficulty locating a spare wand to use.
Who knows? Maybe they had obtained replacement wands. They would have to defend Draco once they found him, right?
It really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. One way or the other, they chose to search for Draco regardless of their own personal safety.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 4, 2007 9:45 am (#307 of 340)
Prefect Marcus, I do not disagree Itend to think that they could have defended themselves with non verbal spells in the absence of a wand even id they had not found wands.
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Suzan - Aug 4, 2007 9:58 am (#308 of 340)
Solitaire -- "Death Nibbers." I love it!
Not to change the subject, but does anyone have any ideas about the OotP film prop that JKR suggested they keep? Several people were certain it was the arch in the MoM, but apparently not.
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Ana Cis - Aug 4, 2007 10:49 am (#309 of 340)
I finally read and reread book 7. I found it more satisfying on the second reading. The first time I focused on the plot? whether Snape betrayed DD, who lived and who died, how Harry would defeat LV, etc. The second time I just enjoyed JKR?s outstanding writing talent on the overall story with its colorful imagery, complicated characters. She?s a real artist; her words create rich colorful images, which unfold into a fantastical moving tapestry allowing us to experience Potterverse with all our senses and emotions. Jut as the Pensieve pulled Harry in to experience other people?s memories, JKR immediately pulls us into her story on first sentence of the first chapter, and holds us in her grip until the last word of the last chapter.
Can we ever be completely satisfied? Of course not, as she said, it?s humanly impossible to answer every single question. So I look forward to Hogwarts, a History!
I loved the epilogue! If I?m overly sentimental, that?s OK. I just loved the lived happily ever after ending. Jo had thrown practically every tragic experience towards Harry?loss of his parents, mean foster parents, loss of his godfather, loss of his owl companion, loss of friends, loss and betrayal of his mentor, and a sociopath out to kill him. If anybody needed a happy ending and his own family, it?s Harry! And I?m ecstatic to experience this part also.
Where there some minor disappointments? Sure, but not worth mentioning compared to complete enjoyment of reading his and all of her books.
There were several really sad moments?the death of Hedgwig, Dobby?s death and burial, and when Harry discovers that Dumbledore had set him up to die, and still had the will to meet his fate. My greatest enjoyment was watching Molly Weasley taking on and defeating Bellatrix, and then Harry rising up to protect her from Voldemort. I felt like, WOW, we can take anything on
Book 5, OoTP is still my favorite book, but this a very, very close second.
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Elanor - Aug 6, 2007 12:39 am (#310 of 340)
About the "balance of the 4 houses/harmony" alchemical symbolism which was evoked here a few days ago (starting post #269), I would like to add a few details as I do think we see the Slytherins contribute to Harry's final victory. They just do it in a very Slytherin-like (or should I write sly-therin like) way.
First, we have Slughorn and Snape who seem to personify Slytherin House's spirit. Slughorn, whom we think may have gone when the battle started, actually comes back to Hogwarts leading back up forces before directly fighting Voldemort. Snape has devoted a great part of his life to the protection of Harry, though always in the shadow. DD telling Snape in one of the memories showed in "The Prince's Tale" chapter (p.679, Sch.): ""My word, Severus, that I shall never reveal the best of you?"after Snape had asked DD never to tell what Snape's role would be is, in that regard, particularly telling.
Draco's attitude also is very Slytherin-like, yet his, and his mother's, silence when asked about Harry and/or Hermione has been crucial - not to mention the fact that it is Draco's wand which, in the end, defeats Voldemort. Gryffindor Harry using Slytherin Draco's wand in order to defeat Voldemort is IMO a wonderful "harmony" image.
We could add Phineas Nigellus' actions to that list (and also Regulus's, in the past): "and Phineas Nigellus called, in his high, reedy voice, "And let it be noted that Slytherin House played its part! Let our contribution not be forgotten!" (Chapter 26, p.747 Sch.).
Therefore, I think that us not seeing some Slytherin students in the battle may be a way to stress the importance of these characters (Snape, Slughorn, Draco, Phineas, Regulus), and the way they embody the Slytherin House characteristics, in the series' resolution.
In the epilogue we learn that students are still sorted into houses but I think that the fact that Harry tells his son who is afraid to be sorted in Slytherin that if he is "then Slytherin House will have gained an excellent student, won't it? It doesn't matter to us, Al." (p.758, Sch.) is very important.
The quest was Harry's and Harry has learned/experienced the true balance of the Four Houses. This balance has allowed his ultimate victory and brought peace back to the Wizarding World. The prejudice against the Slytherin House may remain for some people but, IMO, it doesn't mean the true balance of the Houses has not taken place.
Harry has found the balance of the Houses/elements and become the true quintessence/5th element in the last fight as he was meant to at the end of his journey. The alchemical journey is a journey to knowledge, which is the true Philosophical Gold, the true Stone. Harry has learned and reached Philosophical Gold but all the book's characters have not reached the end of their own journey (yet). Young Albus will have to find the balance of the elements/Houses along his own journey. And I hope Jo will sometime allow us to glimpse what Albus Severus Potter's journey is made of...
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Esther Rose - Aug 6, 2007 6:25 am (#311 of 340)
I'd have to say that even though Slytherins didn't rally up to join in the fight. I agree with everyone else, that Slytherin did have a big part to play in the win against DEs and Voldemort.
Regulus attempted to destroy a Horcrux via Kreatcher.
If it weren't for Snape the Griffindor Sword would have remained in Hogwarts and our trio would have had to carry that dreaded locket longer.
Draco's mother lied to Voldemort (huge risk) to see her own son alive.
Sure a lot of things that Slytherin did may have been self serving but they did help.
As far as no Slytherins students helping out in the war. Like I said before even if there was one "good" Slytherin student they had a million and one odds stacked against them living if they joined with the other houses.
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Phelim Mcintyre - Aug 6, 2007 8:07 am (#312 of 340)
If I remember correctly (don't have a book with me at the moment), Voldemort speaks of the Slytherin students joining him in the light of Lucius and Narcissa's concern about Draco. I wonder if when the centaurs and house elves attacked some turned sides in the chaos and helped fight Voldemort's army? Of course those such as Nott would have stayed on the side of the Death Eaters.
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Choices - Aug 6, 2007 8:20 am (#313 of 340)
Perhaps this was JKR's way of showing us that Slytherins may take longer to grow up and do the right thing than other students. This may explain why Snape and Regulus and Draco made bad choices when young, but grew to rue the bad decisions they made and they became better people as adults.
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Chemyst - Aug 6, 2007 2:39 pm (#314 of 340)
LOL Choices! SLYTHERIN – The House of the Developmentally Delayed
~ stuff that in the Sorting Hat and sing it.
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Choices - Aug 6, 2007 3:12 pm (#315 of 340)
Sorting hat....."Hmmmmmm, out for your own selfish interests, immature, easily swayed by evil friends, I know just where to put you - Slytherin." LOL
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haymoni - Aug 6, 2007 4:40 pm (#316 of 340)
Well, if Snape had not done his part, what contribution did Slytherin House make? Slughorn in his jammies?
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Jenniffler - Aug 6, 2007 7:09 pm (#317 of 340)
haymoni - Well, if Snape had not done his part, what contribution did Slytherin House make? Slughorn in his jammies?
Regulus died to get a horcrux away from LV.
Narcissa lied to LV, saving Harry and additional death(s).
Kreacher led the house elves in memory of a Slytherin boy.
Crabbe decimated the Die-Dum (please don't laugh at this pun!)
Draco refused to identify HRH to his crazy aunt.
Phineas Nigelus Black's portrait was subsitiuting for Ron on a chair in the beginning of winter. (Not a small favor in his opinion.)
All these Slytherin moments were a suprise to me, but all were pretty important to the downfall of Voldemort.
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M A Grimmett - Aug 7, 2007 6:35 am (#318 of 340)
Good catch, Jenniffler. Slytherins didn't rise up en masse like the Gryffindors, but they have made their own very valuable contributions. Also, perhaps LV had family members that the Slytherins were unwilling to risk by showing overt support.
I can't say enough about Draco's unwillingness to give HRH to his aunt. That took some guts.
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NFla Barbara - Aug 7, 2007 2:34 pm (#319 of 340)
The House of the Developmentally Delayed reminds me of what DD said about sorting too soon. But then, if some people might have ended up in other houses if they were sorted later, that reinforces the idea that Slytherin is just irredeemable...and almost no one is totally irredeemable...I end up going around in circles.
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haymoni - Aug 7, 2007 5:49 pm (#320 of 340)
OK - I'll give you those.
I guess I was looking for something battle-wise.
Slughorn was the only Slytherin I recall fighting on "the good side".
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Choices - Aug 9, 2007 10:42 am (#321 of 340)
In my reread of DH, it occurred to me last night that those of us who love the books and read them repeatedly, are doomed to suffer all the deaths over and over again. I got to the Shell Cottage chapter and I cried just as hard over Dobby as I did the first time. It is really painful to keep losing these beloved characters, but I suppose it is the price we HP fanatics must pay.
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Soul Search - Aug 9, 2007 10:50 am (#322 of 340)
Choices,
"... are doomed to suffer all the deaths over and over again."
I skip those parts. And, I only read the first chapter on my first read.
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totyle - Aug 9, 2007 9:07 pm (#323 of 340)
Soul Search-I skip those parts..hahaha....I used to do that for all the Umbridge scenes in OotP rereads...!
I havent quite got enough of DH to skip parts yet, Ive reread some bits many times and the book in its entirety twice. And yes, the tears still came 2nd time around..not as before but still..not unexpected really. For Dobby, For Harry walking into the forest ready to die, for Neville etc etc..
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Holly T. - Aug 10, 2007 6:53 am (#324 of 340)
I know I cried more for Dobby the second time I read the book, because I knew it was coming, so I started pretty much when he first showed up.
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journeymom - Aug 10, 2007 1:20 pm (#325 of 340)
I know I'm picking up a huge amount of details I missed the first time through. Basically because I was severely sleep deprived the entire four days it took me to finish it. I read like a mad woman and missed a lot.
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wynnleaf - Aug 10, 2007 9:57 pm (#326 of 340)
I skip those parts. And, I only read the first chapter on my first read. (Soul Search)
What, exactly, do you mean by only reading the first chapter on your first read?
journeymom,
I know what you mean. I felt like I didn't sleep for days, between me reading, or other family members staying up all night for several nights. I'm re-reading now, more slowly and also in a small discussion group of people that pick over details even more carefully than me, so that helps, too.
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PatPat - Aug 12, 2007 10:40 am (#327 of 340)
Yeah, I was wondering about that too, Soul Search.
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Chemyst - Aug 12, 2007 3:24 pm (#328 of 340)
I think Soul Search has a misplaced "only."
...try it this way: And, I read the first chapter only on my first read. – Soul Search
or this way: And, I read the first chapter on my first read only. ? Soul Search
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Mrs Brisbee - Aug 13, 2007 6:02 am (#329 of 340)
I never count it as a proper reread unless I reread the whole thing. Though I can certainly understand not wanting to read certain sections if they cause the eyes to glaze over in boredom. Anything Quidditch, "Grawp", and about half of HBP have that effect on me. But I manage to struggle through the first two on rereads because I like what surrounds them so much. HBP is another story.
I actually haven't reread DH, not because it causes glazing eyes--quite the contrary-- I just haven't had the time or inclination yet. I was going to wait to make any more comments about DH until I reread it and had a better handle on the plot, but I've no idea when I will get around to it, so I'll comment now. I posted before, but concentrated on Albus Dumbledore because I was so incensed by his arrogance. I probably left the impression that I didn't like the book, which isn't the case. So I thought I'd list some of the things I liked about DH.
The writing was generally very good, and that made a pleasant read. The dialogue was especially well done, and very witty in places.
Speaking of wit, I think Rowling's humor was back in top form. I felt it was a little hit and miss in HBP, but here it was on target. I think she has a particular talent for dark humor.
I loved that most of the book takes place outside of Hogwarts. The Trio is finally moving about in the adult world, and we get to see it clearly outside the insular wall of the school.
Liked the moving back and forth between the magical world and Muggle world, the French Resistance feel, and I even liked the camping (sort of felt like soldiers stuck in the trenches, waiting and waiting and waiting for something to happen).
I loved the scene with Harry at the graves of his parents, and Hermione giving him comfort. I missed Ron very much at that moment.
Nagini in Bathilda was creepy.
Loved Albus Dumbledore's backstory.
I liked Aberforth Dumbledore, which surprised me because I was determined not to. With so many already established characters I wanted to matter to the story shuffled off into the background, I didn't really want some new guy taking up page space. But I was glad to have met him.
Everything Neville was good stuff.
After being so wishy-washy at the end of HBP, McGonagall takes charge. She was awesome.
Loved Snape's meaningless death. Voldemort really is a cold-blooded snake, isn't he?
I liked the off-camera deaths. In war people die. It's random and there is no big death scene. I actually think there should have been more off-camera deaths, and I was surprised so few major characters died.
Rowling worked the word "mundane" into Voldemort's death. He wasn't so extraordinary after all, and everyone knew it at the end. Yay!
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James Greenfield - Aug 15, 2007 5:41 pm (#330 of 340)
I hope this is the place for this comment.
Warner Brothers has been making the HP movies on a regular basis, and I would expect them to at least try to make movie versions of books 6 and 7. BUT, with all the extreme violence (torture, murder, combat) book 7 has, I can't see it getting a rating less than PG-13. Oh, and it needs to be at least 3 hours long, or longer.
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journeymom - Aug 16, 2007 2:39 pm (#331 of 340)
Both Goblet of Fire and Order of the Phoenix were PG-13. Warner Bros won't let go of this cash cow until it's been milked dry. And, I agree, the movies should be at least three hours long!
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tandaradei - Aug 23, 2007 1:22 pm (#332 of 340)
Edited Aug 23, 2007 3:29 pm
I have read every word of Book 7 four times now and know JKR has made her mark in history. I also read Stephen King's comments, and found them also quite to-the-point and respectful.
As did King, apparently, I find a strong pull between JKR's manner of storytelling with Daniel Defoe's. They both just have that ability to pull me in and to make my awareness completely tangential to the protagonist's, slaved if you will to the life of the story.
This is a storytelling ability as distinct from a writer's. High-brow writers are exquisite and poetic, but they do not slave you to their story; rather, they impress you with their precision of wordplay and the like. *shrugs*
IMO, the best storytellers have an ability to create lives within your own life as a listener, to make your memories fuller, with stories of your own in your memory now finding themselves side by side with exhilirating stories of others. And hopefully edifying stories.
JKR is a consummate storyteller. She ended it better than I could imagine and I simply don't know really what to say except thanks.
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Robert van der Pol - Sep 1, 2007 6:34 am (#333 of 340)
When I finished the book, I kept on thinkin about Gamp's law of Elemental Transfiguration. It says that you can't make food appear out of thin air, but in CoS McGonagall conjures a plate of sandwiches which kept refilling itself. According to Gamp's law this is impossible, so it must have another explanation. Maybe she knew where the sandwiches were, maybe there was a magical connection between the plate she made appear out of thin air and a plate the house elfs keep in the kitchens, so McGonagall already knew where the sandwiches were, this would be some kind of summoning. The same way the house table get refilled during the feasts. Maybe somebody else would to share there ideas about this subject.
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Chemyst - Sep 1, 2007 7:19 am (#334 of 340)
That is pretty much what I figured– that McGonagall "summoned" the food for the sandwiches "as needed" from the Hogwarts' kitchen. Harry and Ron had already been included in the "Hogwarts Meal Plan" so in that respect, their meal should have been covered; only the location of where it was served changed and they also lost a little on the variety of the selection; but she was nor conjuring up a meal that had not already been "allocated." I also don't think "sandwiches" would have to exist in the kitchen as long as the elemental bread, meat, lettuce, etc. existed. Minerva may have assembled them by magic.
In DH we saw fishing for salmon using the "accio" charm. That is a change-of-location spell too since the fish already existed for the taking.
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Nicoline Vance - Sep 5, 2007 2:15 pm (#335 of 340)
"It's impossible to make good food out of nothing! You can Summon it if you know where it is, you can transform it, you can increase the quantity if you've already got some-" Hermione, Deathly Hallows, pg 293, Scholastic edition
So it seems that McGonagall could summon the food from the kitchen and increase the quantity as needed. She probably just had to make sure one sandwich was still on the plate.
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Denise P. - Sep 10, 2007 6:27 pm (#336 of 340)
I read DH fairly quickly and then again 2 times shortly after the release. I have been rereading it and besides picking up on smaller things, I am struck by how much more emotional it is on this read through. There are so many moments, phrasing or just overall ..... feelings that are so profound and much more touching on this read through. Maybe this can sustain me enough to reread HBP again.
Harry really grew up in this and he is such a strong, young man by the end of the book.
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Holly T. - Sep 11, 2007 6:15 am (#337 of 340)
Harry does really grow up. I'm so proud of him. I love it when Dumbledore calls him a boy, then says man.
I was listening to the audiobook in the car and was at the part when Harry is in the Ravenclaw common room and was wondering why Harry never got to go to the Hufflepuff common room for anything. I mean, we've seen all of the others, and we know where the Hufflepuff room is, but maybe he could have met Cedric there or something when they were talking about Triwizard clues.
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Kasey - Oct 6, 2007 12:11 pm (#338 of 340)
Edited Oct 6, 2007 1:55 pm
I have just read DH (I live in Zimbabwe and believe me, getting the book intact- months late - is nothing short of a miracle) and I love it. I have always found Hermione ever so slightly annoying and superior but I have to say she displays a whole new side in DH and I have finally come to love her! Harry and Ron have progressed do far, individually and in terms of their friendship. I was intrigued by the whole Dumbledore-isn't-as-pure-as-the-driven-snow thing.
I was appalled that both Lupin and Tonks were killed off (what a body count:-() - but I suppose the together in death thing appealed to JKR?? And poor Hedwig - to be blasted off so early...
Shed many tears at Snape's demise plus his bittersweet memories (I was right! I was right!). JKR really pulled on my heartstrings with every one of Snape's memories and I really lost it when I read the "After all this time?/Always" bit. OMG.
The ending was quite overwhelming and I kept thinking - this needs a Peter Jackson/LOTR style treatment when it hits the big screen.
And finally, I loved the epilogue and have only one quibble: Draco's receding hairline?!! OH JKR, how could you?
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Orion - Oct 8, 2007 9:35 am (#339 of 340)
Can we get Peter Jackson to direct if we start a global campaign? Does it serve Draco right? IMO: Yes! May his socks always slump.
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Madam Pince - Oct 16, 2007 11:40 am (#340 of 340)
Wow, Orion, that's pretty harsh, attacking a person's socks. I totally see "older Draco" as having a receding hairline! His dad can give him a good-natured ribbing over it, since Luscious has the Paris Hilton locks...
This is going back a few months, but... IMO, the best storytellers have an ability to create lives within your own life as a listener, to make your memories fuller, with stories of your own in your memory now finding themselves side by side with exhilirating stories of others. And hopefully edifying stories. -tandaradei
How true! I agree. If you feel like you've lived right alongside the characters in the story, then that writer is a darned good storyteller, and JKR is clearly one of them. (I'll insert another shameless plug here for James Herriot, my all-time favorite at making you "feel" his characters...)
Good point Pheligm
All of the Slytherins had to be there. And after they left the school, Voldemort said that they all came to fight for him. They may have felt they had to fight for him, but if so it wouldn't have a lot to do with saving their own necks, because plenty of people apparently died on both sides.
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Weeny Owl - Aug 3, 2007 4:23 am (#292 of 340)
Attendance may have been compulsory, but that doesn't mean everyone attended. People could have left the country or gone into hiding.
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Luna Logic - Aug 3, 2007 4:52 am (#293 of 340)
Edited by Aug 3, 2007 5:52 am
Mediwitch : I am not one who made a lot of predictions (because I'm really lousy at them!) and did not have a lot of expectations for how things were going to happen in the book, and I really enjoyed it, despite loose ends and "plot holes". Perhaps people who theorized more, were more invested in how they thought the book should go are having more "problems" with it. Thoughts?
Exactly ! I had made many theories, in particular about what had happened at Godrics Hollow , and what had to happen at Hogwarts. And, strangely, I accepted in my first reading all about GH, and not all about Hogwarts ! But a week or two later, all is well for me (thanks to Forum's discussions...)
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Mediwitch - Aug 3, 2007 10:07 am (#294 of 340)
wynnleaf: But in general, what I mainly did was search the previous books very carefully to try to guess at what was actually going on in those books, and what themes, character flaws, incidences, etc., might be important later.
That's exactly what I meant. If you put a lot of effort into predicting what would happen based on what you saw as evidence, but then Jo didn't handle the topic the way you expected, it must be, well, frustrating (for lack of a better word). I'm pretty literal about things (must come from working with kids with autism! ), so I don't attempt to guess what information is evidence and what it will lead to in the books. Sometimes I wonder, but mostly I enjoy looking back after and realizing, "Ah! She got me on that one!" Who could have guessed that after the brief mention of Sirius Black in SS/PS, he could turn into a pivotal character? Maybe some of you could, and maybe by this time I could, but that's how we got all worked up over Mark Evans, isn't it? I just think those who guessed at what textual information was important and tried to predict how Jo would use it had a different experience with this book than those who didn't do so much of that. *shrugs*
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Chemyst - Aug 3, 2007 11:18 am (#295 of 340)
Phelim asks:- "Who was going to use magic late in life?"
Choices' reply: In the Webchat, JKR says she simply forgot about that. She said originally she planned to have it be a student who comes to Hogwarts after developing magic or something to that effect, but then it just slipped her mind.
If it turns out we got Luna instead, I'm happy she changed her mind.
I loathed the Wandering in the Forrest for Forty Days and Forty Nights. It was boring. I just wonder if they could have twiddled their thumbs and Ron could have lost faith in Harry off camera. Did I really have to slog through all that to get the point? – Journeymom
Hm? well, there you go; I thought it added realism. Hurry up and wait. And wait... and wait.
I always interpreted the Sorting Hat's plea for a united Hogwarts coupled with Nearly Headless Nick's comments as the kind of speeches you get from those hoping to avoid war. It wasn't a plea to unite to fight the war, but a plea to avoid it. – Tom Proffitt
I'm thinking that Sorting Hat could benefit from a few sessions of therapy. He is entirely too rigid. It is a miracle that Harry actually stood up to him (figuratively, since he was seated on the stool) and said, "Not Slytherin." When the Hat complains about how the houses are not united, he doesn't have a leg to stand on (literally, this time) because he was the one who decided who should be where in the first place. It is his fixated compulsion that puts Earth into one house and Water another; he could muddy things up if he wanted to. What are they going to do to him? Pop a stitch? Doesn't he get choices too?
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Weeny Owl - Aug 3, 2007 11:23 am (#296 of 340)
You're totally cracking me up, Chemyst.
I never did like the way the houses were divided. I would hope that one day Hogwarts would do something different such as keep all first years together throughout their entire school lives.
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mona amon - Aug 3, 2007 4:37 pm (#297 of 340)
LOL! Chemyst, I totally agree about the Sorting Hat!
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Solitaire - Aug 3, 2007 6:18 pm (#298 of 340)
I was so sure JKR would use as a symbol of the exact opposite--how at least one or two Slytherins join the battle and allow us to say the houses are now in unity.
But she did show us Slytherins in battle. Slughorn was fighting ... and Narcissa Malfoy certainly helped Harry.
I don't think we know for certain that Andromeda was a Slytherin. Slughorn could have been exaggerating when he said that. Given his tendency to bloviate, I think it is a distinct possibility.
Choices, I think Harry saved Draco because he realized, perhaps, that Draco had gotten in so far and now did not know how to get away without risking his own and his parents' lives--much as Regulus before him had done. I think, too, that he must have been affected by seeing how Voldemort treated the Malfoys in their own home ... even though no love was lost between him and the Malfoys. We also know that Harry was horrified when he realized what the Sectumsempra was. I do not think he had any intention of seriously injuring Draco that time.
you feel a little cheated and wonder why JKR gave the hints in the first place.
The writing process is a very "organic" thing, and sometimes stories may turn out a bit differently than the author's original intent. This can't help being true in a story which stretches across 7 novels. I don't think Jo deliberately dangled things which wouldn't ever be told ... I think she just made a few changes in her course over the period of years it took her to write Harry's story.
given the choice, we will always choose to save our own necks.
Snape certainly gave up his life. Then again, I suppose the chain of choices and vows he made throughout his lifetime eventually tightened the noose to the point where he had no choice.
Like Mediwitch, I enjoyed the book. Yes, there are things I'd like to know that were not explained ... but maybe we will never know these things. Then again, maybe Jo is leaving the door open to write a future story. She may feel she is done with Harry now--and who can blame her after all the years she has invested--but I believe she has plenty of potential story lines to pursue ... and I hope she does pursue them.
Solitaire
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Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 3, 2007 9:45 pm (#299 of 340)
I wonder whether Crabbe through his destruction of the diadem and his unexpected death inadvertently redeemed Slytherin House without realizing it because, he did help to destroy Voldemort through his actions albeit unintentionally?
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Thom Matheson - Aug 4, 2007 5:15 am (#300 of 340)
Would that then be also true of Lucius?
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Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 4, 2007 7:35 am (#301 of 340)
Thom, I would argue that Lucius and Narcissa's actions were intentional because, by time of the Battle at Hogwarts I would argue that as power hungry as he was began to understand that continued service to Voldemort would at the very best outcome entail servitude or slavery because of his failures, while, dealing death to Draco.
In the end the Malfoy's love for Draco and the desire to preserve their family led them to conceal the truth about Harry due in part to Harry's rescue of Draco from the Fiendyfire.
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Thom Matheson - Aug 4, 2007 7:42 am (#302 of 340)
Nathan, I was referring to the accidential distruction of the diary, as in the accidential distruction of the diadum. You are right about the Malfoy's though, I think. Seeing the end of family spun them around to assist Harry in Voldemort's end. You could argue that Narcissa should get an assist for the end of Voldemort. Without her help, things might again have been different. I am amazed at the final head count or turnarounds. It seems that only Bella was actually ready to die in Voldemort's service. The Slytherin truth of "save yourself" certainly came out.
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Prefect Marcus - Aug 4, 2007 8:03 am (#303 of 340)
In my mind, the final "redemption" of the Malfoys came during the climatic battle when they were hunting for Draco to the exclusion of all else. There they were, in the midst of that huge battle, searching high and low for Draco.
Think about it. From the time that Neville sliced off Nagini's head, the battle's outcome was pretty much decided. Voldemort's army was badly outnumbered. They were trapped on a battlefield they could not just disapparate from. They were just overwhelmed.
The Malfoys were very prominent followers of Voldemort. They were prime targets to be mowed down with the rest of them. Yet they took no thought for their own safety. Their only concern was for their son, Draco.
Nasty pieces of work they certainly were, yet you have to respect them for that.
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Thom Matheson - Aug 4, 2007 8:07 am (#304 of 340)
Also remember Marcus that neither had a wand. That might make some difference, although I concur with your thought. But, Slytherins will be Slytherins.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 4, 2007 8:19 am (#305 of 340)
Thom, Lucius would get an assist in the destruction of diary because, he did not destroy it himself but, his actions led to its destruction by Harry.
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Prefect Marcus - Aug 4, 2007 9:02 am (#306 of 340)
If a person finds himself in the middle of a battle without a weapon, he usually has four options open to him -- run, hide, surrender, or get a new weapon. The later is usually not that difficult to accomplish in the middle of the battlefield's chaos.
With all their deatheater buddies getting mowed down right and left, and the occasional opposition member getting laid low, the Malfoys would have had little difficulty locating a spare wand to use.
Who knows? Maybe they had obtained replacement wands. They would have to defend Draco once they found him, right?
It really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. One way or the other, they chose to search for Draco regardless of their own personal safety.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 4, 2007 9:45 am (#307 of 340)
Prefect Marcus, I do not disagree Itend to think that they could have defended themselves with non verbal spells in the absence of a wand even id they had not found wands.
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Suzan - Aug 4, 2007 9:58 am (#308 of 340)
Solitaire -- "Death Nibbers." I love it!
Not to change the subject, but does anyone have any ideas about the OotP film prop that JKR suggested they keep? Several people were certain it was the arch in the MoM, but apparently not.
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Ana Cis - Aug 4, 2007 10:49 am (#309 of 340)
I finally read and reread book 7. I found it more satisfying on the second reading. The first time I focused on the plot? whether Snape betrayed DD, who lived and who died, how Harry would defeat LV, etc. The second time I just enjoyed JKR?s outstanding writing talent on the overall story with its colorful imagery, complicated characters. She?s a real artist; her words create rich colorful images, which unfold into a fantastical moving tapestry allowing us to experience Potterverse with all our senses and emotions. Jut as the Pensieve pulled Harry in to experience other people?s memories, JKR immediately pulls us into her story on first sentence of the first chapter, and holds us in her grip until the last word of the last chapter.
Can we ever be completely satisfied? Of course not, as she said, it?s humanly impossible to answer every single question. So I look forward to Hogwarts, a History!
I loved the epilogue! If I?m overly sentimental, that?s OK. I just loved the lived happily ever after ending. Jo had thrown practically every tragic experience towards Harry?loss of his parents, mean foster parents, loss of his godfather, loss of his owl companion, loss of friends, loss and betrayal of his mentor, and a sociopath out to kill him. If anybody needed a happy ending and his own family, it?s Harry! And I?m ecstatic to experience this part also.
Where there some minor disappointments? Sure, but not worth mentioning compared to complete enjoyment of reading his and all of her books.
There were several really sad moments?the death of Hedgwig, Dobby?s death and burial, and when Harry discovers that Dumbledore had set him up to die, and still had the will to meet his fate. My greatest enjoyment was watching Molly Weasley taking on and defeating Bellatrix, and then Harry rising up to protect her from Voldemort. I felt like, WOW, we can take anything on
Book 5, OoTP is still my favorite book, but this a very, very close second.
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Elanor - Aug 6, 2007 12:39 am (#310 of 340)
About the "balance of the 4 houses/harmony" alchemical symbolism which was evoked here a few days ago (starting post #269), I would like to add a few details as I do think we see the Slytherins contribute to Harry's final victory. They just do it in a very Slytherin-like (or should I write sly-therin like) way.
First, we have Slughorn and Snape who seem to personify Slytherin House's spirit. Slughorn, whom we think may have gone when the battle started, actually comes back to Hogwarts leading back up forces before directly fighting Voldemort. Snape has devoted a great part of his life to the protection of Harry, though always in the shadow. DD telling Snape in one of the memories showed in "The Prince's Tale" chapter (p.679, Sch.): ""My word, Severus, that I shall never reveal the best of you?"after Snape had asked DD never to tell what Snape's role would be is, in that regard, particularly telling.
Draco's attitude also is very Slytherin-like, yet his, and his mother's, silence when asked about Harry and/or Hermione has been crucial - not to mention the fact that it is Draco's wand which, in the end, defeats Voldemort. Gryffindor Harry using Slytherin Draco's wand in order to defeat Voldemort is IMO a wonderful "harmony" image.
We could add Phineas Nigellus' actions to that list (and also Regulus's, in the past): "and Phineas Nigellus called, in his high, reedy voice, "And let it be noted that Slytherin House played its part! Let our contribution not be forgotten!" (Chapter 26, p.747 Sch.).
Therefore, I think that us not seeing some Slytherin students in the battle may be a way to stress the importance of these characters (Snape, Slughorn, Draco, Phineas, Regulus), and the way they embody the Slytherin House characteristics, in the series' resolution.
In the epilogue we learn that students are still sorted into houses but I think that the fact that Harry tells his son who is afraid to be sorted in Slytherin that if he is "then Slytherin House will have gained an excellent student, won't it? It doesn't matter to us, Al." (p.758, Sch.) is very important.
The quest was Harry's and Harry has learned/experienced the true balance of the Four Houses. This balance has allowed his ultimate victory and brought peace back to the Wizarding World. The prejudice against the Slytherin House may remain for some people but, IMO, it doesn't mean the true balance of the Houses has not taken place.
Harry has found the balance of the Houses/elements and become the true quintessence/5th element in the last fight as he was meant to at the end of his journey. The alchemical journey is a journey to knowledge, which is the true Philosophical Gold, the true Stone. Harry has learned and reached Philosophical Gold but all the book's characters have not reached the end of their own journey (yet). Young Albus will have to find the balance of the elements/Houses along his own journey. And I hope Jo will sometime allow us to glimpse what Albus Severus Potter's journey is made of...
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Esther Rose - Aug 6, 2007 6:25 am (#311 of 340)
I'd have to say that even though Slytherins didn't rally up to join in the fight. I agree with everyone else, that Slytherin did have a big part to play in the win against DEs and Voldemort.
Regulus attempted to destroy a Horcrux via Kreatcher.
If it weren't for Snape the Griffindor Sword would have remained in Hogwarts and our trio would have had to carry that dreaded locket longer.
Draco's mother lied to Voldemort (huge risk) to see her own son alive.
Sure a lot of things that Slytherin did may have been self serving but they did help.
As far as no Slytherins students helping out in the war. Like I said before even if there was one "good" Slytherin student they had a million and one odds stacked against them living if they joined with the other houses.
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Phelim Mcintyre - Aug 6, 2007 8:07 am (#312 of 340)
If I remember correctly (don't have a book with me at the moment), Voldemort speaks of the Slytherin students joining him in the light of Lucius and Narcissa's concern about Draco. I wonder if when the centaurs and house elves attacked some turned sides in the chaos and helped fight Voldemort's army? Of course those such as Nott would have stayed on the side of the Death Eaters.
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Choices - Aug 6, 2007 8:20 am (#313 of 340)
Perhaps this was JKR's way of showing us that Slytherins may take longer to grow up and do the right thing than other students. This may explain why Snape and Regulus and Draco made bad choices when young, but grew to rue the bad decisions they made and they became better people as adults.
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Chemyst - Aug 6, 2007 2:39 pm (#314 of 340)
LOL Choices! SLYTHERIN – The House of the Developmentally Delayed
~ stuff that in the Sorting Hat and sing it.
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Choices - Aug 6, 2007 3:12 pm (#315 of 340)
Sorting hat....."Hmmmmmm, out for your own selfish interests, immature, easily swayed by evil friends, I know just where to put you - Slytherin." LOL
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haymoni - Aug 6, 2007 4:40 pm (#316 of 340)
Well, if Snape had not done his part, what contribution did Slytherin House make? Slughorn in his jammies?
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Jenniffler - Aug 6, 2007 7:09 pm (#317 of 340)
haymoni - Well, if Snape had not done his part, what contribution did Slytherin House make? Slughorn in his jammies?
Regulus died to get a horcrux away from LV.
Narcissa lied to LV, saving Harry and additional death(s).
Kreacher led the house elves in memory of a Slytherin boy.
Crabbe decimated the Die-Dum (please don't laugh at this pun!)
Draco refused to identify HRH to his crazy aunt.
Phineas Nigelus Black's portrait was subsitiuting for Ron on a chair in the beginning of winter. (Not a small favor in his opinion.)
All these Slytherin moments were a suprise to me, but all were pretty important to the downfall of Voldemort.
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M A Grimmett - Aug 7, 2007 6:35 am (#318 of 340)
Good catch, Jenniffler. Slytherins didn't rise up en masse like the Gryffindors, but they have made their own very valuable contributions. Also, perhaps LV had family members that the Slytherins were unwilling to risk by showing overt support.
I can't say enough about Draco's unwillingness to give HRH to his aunt. That took some guts.
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NFla Barbara - Aug 7, 2007 2:34 pm (#319 of 340)
The House of the Developmentally Delayed reminds me of what DD said about sorting too soon. But then, if some people might have ended up in other houses if they were sorted later, that reinforces the idea that Slytherin is just irredeemable...and almost no one is totally irredeemable...I end up going around in circles.
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haymoni - Aug 7, 2007 5:49 pm (#320 of 340)
OK - I'll give you those.
I guess I was looking for something battle-wise.
Slughorn was the only Slytherin I recall fighting on "the good side".
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Choices - Aug 9, 2007 10:42 am (#321 of 340)
In my reread of DH, it occurred to me last night that those of us who love the books and read them repeatedly, are doomed to suffer all the deaths over and over again. I got to the Shell Cottage chapter and I cried just as hard over Dobby as I did the first time. It is really painful to keep losing these beloved characters, but I suppose it is the price we HP fanatics must pay.
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Soul Search - Aug 9, 2007 10:50 am (#322 of 340)
Choices,
"... are doomed to suffer all the deaths over and over again."
I skip those parts. And, I only read the first chapter on my first read.
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totyle - Aug 9, 2007 9:07 pm (#323 of 340)
Soul Search-I skip those parts..hahaha....I used to do that for all the Umbridge scenes in OotP rereads...!
I havent quite got enough of DH to skip parts yet, Ive reread some bits many times and the book in its entirety twice. And yes, the tears still came 2nd time around..not as before but still..not unexpected really. For Dobby, For Harry walking into the forest ready to die, for Neville etc etc..
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Holly T. - Aug 10, 2007 6:53 am (#324 of 340)
I know I cried more for Dobby the second time I read the book, because I knew it was coming, so I started pretty much when he first showed up.
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journeymom - Aug 10, 2007 1:20 pm (#325 of 340)
I know I'm picking up a huge amount of details I missed the first time through. Basically because I was severely sleep deprived the entire four days it took me to finish it. I read like a mad woman and missed a lot.
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wynnleaf - Aug 10, 2007 9:57 pm (#326 of 340)
I skip those parts. And, I only read the first chapter on my first read. (Soul Search)
What, exactly, do you mean by only reading the first chapter on your first read?
journeymom,
I know what you mean. I felt like I didn't sleep for days, between me reading, or other family members staying up all night for several nights. I'm re-reading now, more slowly and also in a small discussion group of people that pick over details even more carefully than me, so that helps, too.
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PatPat - Aug 12, 2007 10:40 am (#327 of 340)
Yeah, I was wondering about that too, Soul Search.
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Chemyst - Aug 12, 2007 3:24 pm (#328 of 340)
I think Soul Search has a misplaced "only."
...try it this way: And, I read the first chapter only on my first read. – Soul Search
or this way: And, I read the first chapter on my first read only. ? Soul Search
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Mrs Brisbee - Aug 13, 2007 6:02 am (#329 of 340)
I never count it as a proper reread unless I reread the whole thing. Though I can certainly understand not wanting to read certain sections if they cause the eyes to glaze over in boredom. Anything Quidditch, "Grawp", and about half of HBP have that effect on me. But I manage to struggle through the first two on rereads because I like what surrounds them so much. HBP is another story.
I actually haven't reread DH, not because it causes glazing eyes--quite the contrary-- I just haven't had the time or inclination yet. I was going to wait to make any more comments about DH until I reread it and had a better handle on the plot, but I've no idea when I will get around to it, so I'll comment now. I posted before, but concentrated on Albus Dumbledore because I was so incensed by his arrogance. I probably left the impression that I didn't like the book, which isn't the case. So I thought I'd list some of the things I liked about DH.
The writing was generally very good, and that made a pleasant read. The dialogue was especially well done, and very witty in places.
Speaking of wit, I think Rowling's humor was back in top form. I felt it was a little hit and miss in HBP, but here it was on target. I think she has a particular talent for dark humor.
I loved that most of the book takes place outside of Hogwarts. The Trio is finally moving about in the adult world, and we get to see it clearly outside the insular wall of the school.
Liked the moving back and forth between the magical world and Muggle world, the French Resistance feel, and I even liked the camping (sort of felt like soldiers stuck in the trenches, waiting and waiting and waiting for something to happen).
I loved the scene with Harry at the graves of his parents, and Hermione giving him comfort. I missed Ron very much at that moment.
Nagini in Bathilda was creepy.
Loved Albus Dumbledore's backstory.
I liked Aberforth Dumbledore, which surprised me because I was determined not to. With so many already established characters I wanted to matter to the story shuffled off into the background, I didn't really want some new guy taking up page space. But I was glad to have met him.
Everything Neville was good stuff.
After being so wishy-washy at the end of HBP, McGonagall takes charge. She was awesome.
Loved Snape's meaningless death. Voldemort really is a cold-blooded snake, isn't he?
I liked the off-camera deaths. In war people die. It's random and there is no big death scene. I actually think there should have been more off-camera deaths, and I was surprised so few major characters died.
Rowling worked the word "mundane" into Voldemort's death. He wasn't so extraordinary after all, and everyone knew it at the end. Yay!
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James Greenfield - Aug 15, 2007 5:41 pm (#330 of 340)
I hope this is the place for this comment.
Warner Brothers has been making the HP movies on a regular basis, and I would expect them to at least try to make movie versions of books 6 and 7. BUT, with all the extreme violence (torture, murder, combat) book 7 has, I can't see it getting a rating less than PG-13. Oh, and it needs to be at least 3 hours long, or longer.
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journeymom - Aug 16, 2007 2:39 pm (#331 of 340)
Both Goblet of Fire and Order of the Phoenix were PG-13. Warner Bros won't let go of this cash cow until it's been milked dry. And, I agree, the movies should be at least three hours long!
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tandaradei - Aug 23, 2007 1:22 pm (#332 of 340)
Edited Aug 23, 2007 3:29 pm
I have read every word of Book 7 four times now and know JKR has made her mark in history. I also read Stephen King's comments, and found them also quite to-the-point and respectful.
As did King, apparently, I find a strong pull between JKR's manner of storytelling with Daniel Defoe's. They both just have that ability to pull me in and to make my awareness completely tangential to the protagonist's, slaved if you will to the life of the story.
This is a storytelling ability as distinct from a writer's. High-brow writers are exquisite and poetic, but they do not slave you to their story; rather, they impress you with their precision of wordplay and the like. *shrugs*
IMO, the best storytellers have an ability to create lives within your own life as a listener, to make your memories fuller, with stories of your own in your memory now finding themselves side by side with exhilirating stories of others. And hopefully edifying stories.
JKR is a consummate storyteller. She ended it better than I could imagine and I simply don't know really what to say except thanks.
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Robert van der Pol - Sep 1, 2007 6:34 am (#333 of 340)
When I finished the book, I kept on thinkin about Gamp's law of Elemental Transfiguration. It says that you can't make food appear out of thin air, but in CoS McGonagall conjures a plate of sandwiches which kept refilling itself. According to Gamp's law this is impossible, so it must have another explanation. Maybe she knew where the sandwiches were, maybe there was a magical connection between the plate she made appear out of thin air and a plate the house elfs keep in the kitchens, so McGonagall already knew where the sandwiches were, this would be some kind of summoning. The same way the house table get refilled during the feasts. Maybe somebody else would to share there ideas about this subject.
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Chemyst - Sep 1, 2007 7:19 am (#334 of 340)
That is pretty much what I figured– that McGonagall "summoned" the food for the sandwiches "as needed" from the Hogwarts' kitchen. Harry and Ron had already been included in the "Hogwarts Meal Plan" so in that respect, their meal should have been covered; only the location of where it was served changed and they also lost a little on the variety of the selection; but she was nor conjuring up a meal that had not already been "allocated." I also don't think "sandwiches" would have to exist in the kitchen as long as the elemental bread, meat, lettuce, etc. existed. Minerva may have assembled them by magic.
In DH we saw fishing for salmon using the "accio" charm. That is a change-of-location spell too since the fish already existed for the taking.
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Nicoline Vance - Sep 5, 2007 2:15 pm (#335 of 340)
"It's impossible to make good food out of nothing! You can Summon it if you know where it is, you can transform it, you can increase the quantity if you've already got some-" Hermione, Deathly Hallows, pg 293, Scholastic edition
So it seems that McGonagall could summon the food from the kitchen and increase the quantity as needed. She probably just had to make sure one sandwich was still on the plate.
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Denise P. - Sep 10, 2007 6:27 pm (#336 of 340)
I read DH fairly quickly and then again 2 times shortly after the release. I have been rereading it and besides picking up on smaller things, I am struck by how much more emotional it is on this read through. There are so many moments, phrasing or just overall ..... feelings that are so profound and much more touching on this read through. Maybe this can sustain me enough to reread HBP again.
Harry really grew up in this and he is such a strong, young man by the end of the book.
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Holly T. - Sep 11, 2007 6:15 am (#337 of 340)
Harry does really grow up. I'm so proud of him. I love it when Dumbledore calls him a boy, then says man.
I was listening to the audiobook in the car and was at the part when Harry is in the Ravenclaw common room and was wondering why Harry never got to go to the Hufflepuff common room for anything. I mean, we've seen all of the others, and we know where the Hufflepuff room is, but maybe he could have met Cedric there or something when they were talking about Triwizard clues.
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Kasey - Oct 6, 2007 12:11 pm (#338 of 340)
Edited Oct 6, 2007 1:55 pm
I have just read DH (I live in Zimbabwe and believe me, getting the book intact- months late - is nothing short of a miracle) and I love it. I have always found Hermione ever so slightly annoying and superior but I have to say she displays a whole new side in DH and I have finally come to love her! Harry and Ron have progressed do far, individually and in terms of their friendship. I was intrigued by the whole Dumbledore-isn't-as-pure-as-the-driven-snow thing.
I was appalled that both Lupin and Tonks were killed off (what a body count:-() - but I suppose the together in death thing appealed to JKR?? And poor Hedwig - to be blasted off so early...
Shed many tears at Snape's demise plus his bittersweet memories (I was right! I was right!). JKR really pulled on my heartstrings with every one of Snape's memories and I really lost it when I read the "After all this time?/Always" bit. OMG.
The ending was quite overwhelming and I kept thinking - this needs a Peter Jackson/LOTR style treatment when it hits the big screen.
And finally, I loved the epilogue and have only one quibble: Draco's receding hairline?!! OH JKR, how could you?
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Orion - Oct 8, 2007 9:35 am (#339 of 340)
Can we get Peter Jackson to direct if we start a global campaign? Does it serve Draco right? IMO: Yes! May his socks always slump.
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Madam Pince - Oct 16, 2007 11:40 am (#340 of 340)
Wow, Orion, that's pretty harsh, attacking a person's socks. I totally see "older Draco" as having a receding hairline! His dad can give him a good-natured ribbing over it, since Luscious has the Paris Hilton locks...
This is going back a few months, but... IMO, the best storytellers have an ability to create lives within your own life as a listener, to make your memories fuller, with stories of your own in your memory now finding themselves side by side with exhilirating stories of others. And hopefully edifying stories. -tandaradei
How true! I agree. If you feel like you've lived right alongside the characters in the story, then that writer is a darned good storyteller, and JKR is clearly one of them. (I'll insert another shameless plug here for James Herriot, my all-time favorite at making you "feel" his characters...)
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