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Harry Potter Book Read Along Thread - Prisoner of Azkaban
Julia H. Sun Jul 03, 2011 8:36 am
This topic serves as an archive of a thread from the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum as hosted on World Crossing which ceased operation on April 15, 2011. Julia H.
+ Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban ~ Read Along 2007 ~
Kip Carter - Mar 29, 2007 1:22 pm
Edited Aug 30, 2007 3:02 am
Mrs Brisbee asked to have "Read Along" discussions begin on Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban, so let's begin with Chapter One.
Julia H.- Prefect
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Join date : 2011-02-18
Re: Harry Potter Book Read Along Thread - Prisoner of Azkaban
Julia H. Sun Jul 03, 2011 8:52 am
Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban Book Read Along (Posts 1-50)
Mrs Brisbee - Mar 30, 2007 3:59 am (#1 of 257)
Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban, Chapter 1, "Owl Post":
I think Rowling develops important themes in each of her books. In PoA, one really stands out in the first chapter: Family. Another, Time, is set up for the future.
The book opens with Harry doing his history homework-- appropriately, given the theme. History isn't exactly as it might seem. With new information Harry is able to see that the medieval witch burnings weren't exactly as Muggles perceived them.
How an event is perceived will color how everything that came before it is viewed, and since people will act based on how their perceptions, it will effect everything that comes after.
We also again are reminded of the Dursley's feelings for Harry. Although his blood relatives, they don't nurture him. They have done their best to deny him his heritage by lying about his past, not allowing questions, and keeping him miserable. They are not good family.
When the Weasleys win extra money, something they don't usually have, they spend it to bring their family together. Ron is in Egypt with his entire family; we see him surrounded by his kin in the Daily Prophet photograph. Hermione is also with her family, vacationing in France.
The Dursleys ignore Harry's birthday, as they have ever since he got his Hogwarts letter. It is Harry's first three friends-- Hagrid, Ron and Hermione-- who make him happy for the first time ever that it is his birthday. And Hedwig is pleased to have brought Harry the gift from Hermione. They are better family than the Dursleys ever were.
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Steve Newton - Mar 30, 2007 11:29 am (#2 of 257)
Well done, Mrs. B!
I don't have much, but here goes.
Chapter 1-Owl Post
Harry must put way too much pressure on the pen when he writes if the sound would wake the Dursleys.
Harry demonstrates his lock picking skills.
On the phone issue Harry seems to think that Hermione has more sense than Ron.
Owls certainly seem to be intelligent. They help one another and seem to know that their owners need.
Bill is a curse breaker. Could be useful.
I guess that Dobby intercepted the birthday cards last year.
Hagrid has given Harry gifts of an own and a book. I can't remember anything else. Oh, yeah, the pipe or horn or whatever that gets them past Fluffy in SS.
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Mediwitch - Mar 30, 2007 6:33 pm (#3 of 257)
Good point about Dobby intercepting last year's cards.
Chapter One: Owl Post
I agree with Mrs. Brisbee. The Weasleys get a bit of gold and spend it on bringing their family together. Big difference from the divisive Dursleys.
Oh yeah, Bill the curse breaker. That's gotta come in handy!
I guess that's all - these first chapters contain a bit of backstory for catching up. I probably don't read them carefully enough because of that!
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Uncle Brad - Mar 30, 2007 7:18 pm (#4 of 257)
I'll throw my two knuts in on Chapter 1:
Ron is in communication with Hermione, having sent her a letter telling her about the phone incident.
The Weasley's using their money to get the family together. This isn't the first time as they went to see Charlie in Year 1. The Dursleys on the other hand like to just brag to the neighbors about the new car.
I also noticed Harry's lock picking ability.
The Dursley's medieval attitudes on wizards, how does this compare to the wizards medieval attitudes towards clothes styles?
Spiders are already mentioned.
Hermione gives Harry a fun but practical gift (and very thoughtful too), Ron gives a similar fun gift, but not as practical (yet?). Also - owls seem to be able to carry a lot (including other owls) as well as being very smart.
In the end, Harry felt like everyone else - glad that it was his birthday.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Mar 30, 2007 8:31 pm (#5 of 257)
Of all the gifts Harry recieved Hagrid's while necessary is the most impractical, also I believe Hagrid's gift foreshadows Hagrid's elevation to the status of a professor.
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Laura W - Mar 31, 2007 3:57 am (#6 of 257)
"Hagrid has given Harry gifts of an own and a book. I can't remember anything else. Oh, yeah, the pipe or horn or whatever that gets them past Fluffy in SS." (Steve Newton)
On Harry's eleventh birthday Hagrid gave him a cake with the words "Happy Birthday Harry" in green icing on it. It too was a gift, along with the owl. The first time in Harry's memory that he had had a cake (although I suspect Lily and James had one for him on his first birthday), a present of any kind or even an acknowledgment that he had turned another year older. Hagrid was the very first person in Harry's life - he wouldn't remember his first 15 months that well - who celebrated his existence. (sob!)
Throughout all six books, the Dursleys never did acknowledge Harry's birthdays; through either word or deed. And the total of their Christmas gifts to him consisted of a clothes hanger, Uncle Vernon's old socks, a tissue, and a 50-pence piece. In contrast to the lovely and loving presents he received from Ron, Molly, Hermoine, Fred and George (the Map), Hagrid, and Sirius (the Firebolt) -- his *real* family.
Laura
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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 31, 2007 7:57 am (#7 of 257)
Nice observations, everyone, especially about the presents Hagrid has given Harry. Hedwig has been an important present, because during the summer she is present; Harry notes that she is the only friend he has in the Dursleys' House.
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Steve Newton - Apr 1, 2007 6:18 pm (#8 of 257)
First of all, in my post #2 I say "Hagrid has given Harry gifts of an own." Obviously that should say owl.
Chapter 2-Aunt Marge's Big Mistake
Vernon seems to equate cleanliness with goodness.
When Petunia "peered intently" out of the window it seemed similar to Snape in Spinner's End.
Harry has picked up a nastily effective negotiation style. I like it.
Marge would have sent Harry to an orphanage. Tom's fate.
The exploding wine glass. It has happened to Marge before. Is she doing magic?
I don't recall ever Harry having exploded anything before. Am I forgetting something?
Col. Fubster is mentioned 3 times.
The cupboard door opens before Harry gets there. Wandless magic.
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Choices - Apr 1, 2007 6:26 pm (#9 of 257)
Steve - "I don't recall ever Harry having exploded anything before. Am I forgetting something?"
I think that is a reference to the explosion at Godric's Hollow. Petunia obviously knows that the house was in ruins when Harry was gotten out by Hagrid and wants to blame Harry for the destruction.
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Laura W - Apr 2, 2007 3:22 am (#10 of 257)
Edited Apr 2, 2007 4:44 am
"Vernon seems to equate cleanliness with goodness."
In that scene, Vernon calls Sirius a "layabout" and then follows it with "Look at his hair." James Potter had messy hair and Vernon tells Marge that Lily's husband "didn't work." Again, a connection with messy hair and laziness made by Uncle Vernon.
I noticed the wandless magic too, Steve.
Sorry, Choices. I don't think so. The line in this chapter of PoA is Harry thinking to himself that "it had been a long time since he'd lost control and made something explode," so I believe it is referring to an explosion Harry did cause when he got angry and that he knows he caused. JM2K Hmm, what would it be?
Edited to add ---
Aunt Marge spends a whole evening saying the most vile, horrible things about Lily Evans and James Potter right in front of their orphaned 13-year-old son. What a cruel person she is!
Notably, the whole time Marge is spouting off, Petunia says not one word in favour of or in defence of her sister or her sister's character. She just allows Marge to paint Lily in the worst terms. Does she really hate her that much? Apparently so. It's not Lily's fault that she was a witch; she was born that way.
Aunt Marge makes references to the importance of blood. A theme throughout the books (eg - Lucius Malfoy and Mrs. Black declaring the superiority of pure-bloods, Peter taking Harry's blood for Voldemort, etc.).
Laura
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Uncle Brad - Apr 2, 2007 5:18 pm (#11 of 257)
Vernon and Petunia have always had a thing about messy hair. Harry had to get more haircuts than any kid in his school. Dudley is always described as having perfectly flat hair pasted to his head.
Dudley looks after Dudley - getting 20 pounds for putting up with Aunt Marge.
Aunt Marge gets drunk then accuses Harry's parents of being drunk when they crashed the car. She is a piece of work. No wonder Ripper is evil tempered. She is also not as 'proper' as she would want everyone to believe, wiping her face with her sleeve, belching and the like. It goes along with the 'eating bad whelks' from book one as well.
It was interesting that Sirius Black escaped within a week of learning about Peter. He must have had a plan to get out in the back of his mind all along.
Harry blew up the glass, blew up aunt Marge, and opened the cupboard door all without a wand. It all appeared to be emotionally related, similar to when he ended up on the school roof or turned his teacher's hair colors. Is this why he is able to blast his enemys off their feet with simple spells - higher emotions? I don't recall any mention of him blowing something up in the previous books - could it have happened before he went to Hogwarts?
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Choices - Apr 2, 2007 5:51 pm (#12 of 257)
I have to disagree Laura - sorry. The house at Godric's Hollow is the only house we have heard of that explodes when Harry is around. I have to believe Petunia feels Harry is to blame for the Godric's Hollow explosion and fears if Harry is left alone, she will come home to find her house in ruins.
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Steve Newton - Apr 3, 2007 8:06 am (#13 of 257)
It may be referring to Godric's Hollow but Harry, as of yet, does not seem to remember this. Also, I don't think that Harry blew up anything there. We don't really know though.
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Choices - Apr 3, 2007 2:40 pm (#14 of 257)
Steve, I was in no way saying that Harry was responsible for blowing up the Godric's Hollow house, but in Petunia's mind, I think she sees him as responsible. The Dursley's like to blame Harry for everything and I think this is no exception. Petunia hears that the Godric's Hollow house was in ruins and just assumes that Harry was to blame. I'm sure she is convinced that, if left alone, Harry will do the same to her house.
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Mrs. Sirius - Apr 3, 2007 11:10 pm (#15 of 257)
There is a poignant point that I would like to add about Hewdig, that I saw when I read POA in Spanish because the English language so vast.
The quote is something to the effect of Hedwig is the only one at 4 Privet Drive that doesn't "shiver" when they see Harry. So Harry is really suffering loneliness and isolation during the summers.
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Luna Logic - Apr 4, 2007 1:29 am (#16 of 257)
Edited by Apr 4, 2007 1:29 am
Adding my reading of the two chapters and of the messages: Chapter one :
I agree with Mrs Brisbee, the opening theme in PoA is family, more precisely the essential function of a family which is to “nurture” each of its members with emotional ties. The situation is very different when the ties are positive ones - only those can make one secure. On the contrary, the Dursley have provided Harry with negative emotional bonds. Each time they see him, their return is negative.
Harry is slowly constructing a new secure “family” as resumed in the thread: his first three friends and Hedwig, the Weasley family…
Interesting to think that this book is the one where Harry is to discover he has a godfather. Moreover, the first chapter’s end points to the lack of a positive guardian, who could have signed the Hogsmeade visit’s permission, thus permitting to Harry a real social life of his own- another important family function.
Chapter two :
Steve Newton’s remark is intriguing: When Petunia "peered intently" out of the window it seemed similar to Snape in Spinner's End. (Hmm , could it be resulting from t old and similar practices in a common neighborough?)
I agree with Uncle Brad about the importance of Harry’s emotional - or instinctive? - magic: Harry blew up the glass, blew up aunt Marge, and opened the cupboard door all without a wand. It all appeared to be emotionally related, similar to when he ended up on the school roof or turned his teacher's hair colors. Is this why he is able to blast his enemys off their feet with simple spells - higher emotions?
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Steve Newton - Apr 4, 2007 10:17 am (#17 of 257)
Probably a tad early but here goes.
Chapter 3-The Knight Bus
Harry has several prickling neck sensations in the books. I usually connect them to powerful magic, like at Ollivander's, but this seems to be him sensing someones presence.
This seems to be the same alley he and Dudley meet the dementors in in OOTP.
Out of everyone he knows he chooses Neville's name.
Ernie Prang, one of the few repeating first names. Ernie Macmillan being the other.
How did Peter blow up the street?
Was this before Crouch escaped? Probably not.
Harry seems to equate blowing up his aunt with murder. He is clearly not thinking straight.
Tom, another of the few repeating first names. A plethora of Tom Riddles and another one that I can't remember right now.
"Accidental Magic."
In the Muggle world Fudge would be a fool to sign the permission form for Harry.
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Steve Newton - Apr 4, 2007 12:39 pm (#18 of 257)
I just realized that I skipped a line in my comments on chapter 2.
Marge is one of several people in the books who seem to have a problem with alcohol, Hagrid, Sirius, and Mundungus.
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Laura W - Apr 4, 2007 1:41 pm (#19 of 257)
1 -
Marge is one of several people in the books who seem to have a problem with alcohol, Hagrid, Sirius, and Mundungus.
And Winky, Steve. And probably Mrs. Cole, from the sound of it. And, of course, Sybill.
2 -
"Harry seems to equate blowing up his aunt with murder. He is clearly not thinking straight."
At this point, he is not familiar with how Azkaban works or what crimes would result in what kind of sentences. Therefore, he, at 13-years-old, might indeed be afraid that his "crime" might put him into wizard prison for life. (It's not until GoF that he learns about the Unforgivables.)
Laura
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Steve Newton - Apr 4, 2007 2:18 pm (#20 of 257)
And Winky, Steve. And probably Mrs. Cole, from the sound of it. And, of course, Sybill.
Geez, I missed quite a lot, didn't I.
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Laura W - Apr 4, 2007 2:26 pm (#21 of 257)
Edited Apr 4, 2007 3:28 pm
That's ok, Steve. You were the one who brought up the point that several characters drink too much. I just took the ball (the Quaffle?) and ran with it. (smile)
And we don't know what Mad-Eye Moody has in that flask he keeps drinking from, do we? Hmmmm. I have a feeling that an old grisled veteran like him wouldn't exactly be drinking pumpkin juice.
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Uncle Brad - Apr 4, 2007 5:41 pm (#22 of 257)
Back on chapter two and the theme of family - Harry manages to survive, even excel even with having the Dursleys as his family. They treat him like dirt and he turns out ok. Dudley is treated like a prince and ends up as he does. Does this have some bearing on Dumbledore's comment later about the damage inflicted on Dudley?
Another thing I noted was that Harry 'escaped' from Number 4 Privet Drive soon after Sirius escaped from Azkaban. Both ended up literally out in the streets.
Chapter 3 - The Knight Bus. Appropriate transportation for the hero.
Stan Shunpike giving Harry advice 'You oughta read the papers more...'. Advice he should have taken later in life.
It is the first mention of Charing Cross Road in relation to the location of the Leaky Cauldron that I remember.
More wandless magic, this time by Tom, who snapped his fingers to light the fire.
Fudge is obviously hiding something or withholding information from Harry. There are lots of clues that there is danger for Harry from Sirius Black.
We seem to have lost a week somewhere. Aunt Marge arrived on Harry's birthday and stayed a week. Harry then arrived in Diagon Alley with only two weeks until school started, making August only three weeks long!
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Uncle Brad - Apr 4, 2007 5:55 pm (#23 of 257)
From Steve's comments - It is the same alley that Harry & Dudley met the dementors later in life. 'Dudley Demented'
Peter blew up the street with MAGIC -what else? :~)
Sirius escaped AFTER Barty Crouch escaped. Barty was put into Azkaban for torturing Neville's parents soon after Voldemort's fall. He escaped almost immediatly, but it was never discovered because his mother took his place and died in Azkaban. He spent the past several years under his father's imperious curse and only managed to escape that after the World Cup.
Slughorn seems to be able to hold his own in a drinking contest too. Like you said, lots of people seem to indulge a bit too much.
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totyle - Apr 4, 2007 7:12 pm (#24 of 257)
In Chapter Two it is also interesting to note that Harry's interactions with the Dursleys has changed somewhat compared to in the previous two books. He has matured enough to be able to hold his ground as can be seen when he bargains with Vernon to get the Hogsmead form signed. He keeps cool and calm and its Vernon who panics in that conversation.
In spite of this, he does lose his cool completely at the end of the Chapter, but that's because he had been goaded just too much. And even then he stood his ground, he wasnt submitting to Vernon's roaring to come back and put Marge right.
This Chapter is showing how Harry is maturing enough and that the Dursleys just can't brow beat him to do their bidding as before.
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Steve Newton - Apr 8, 2007 7:02 am (#25 of 257)
Chapter 4-The Leaky Cauldron
Another dwarf sighting. I only remembered Lockhart's Valentine's dwarfs. (Dwarves?)
I think that we all know enough to wonder who is beneath the balaclava.
Fortean Fortescue's Ice Cream Parlor. It seems to be closed in HBP and one of the headmaster's portraits is named Fortescue. There must be a connection. Fortescue seems to know a lot about wizarding history. Or, at least, medieval witch burnings. Free sundaes?
I think that Harry's brooms, a Firebolt and a Nimbus 2000, must have meaning. Lightning and cloud, but...I got nothing.
Unbreakable braking charm. I like it.
100 copies of the COMC book suggests that there are many students that we never see.
"Broken Ball: When Fortunes Turn Foul" No comment.
Neville's description-Round faced, forgetful. He has lost a list. He will lose another.
The Weasley's are staying at the Leaky Cauldron. They must have prize money left. Or the Ministry is going the extra mile to protect Harry.
Ron's new wand, 14 inches, willow, unicorn tail hair.
The black rats playing skipping games remind me of an old cartoon. 3 blind mice, maybe. It might come to me someday.
"Bang him on the counter." Is this a common expression? I don't know it. Bang sounds out of place to me.
I don't think that Percy will be the last Head Boy in the family.
Ron and Percy are in room 12.
Harry didn't hear the whole argument between the Weasley's. I think that he missed some key information.
Is it Peter trying to lose the rat tonic?
The mirror in Harry's room is magnificent.
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Laura W - Apr 8, 2007 12:39 pm (#26 of 257)
"I don't think that Percy will be the last Head Boy in the family." (Steve Newton)
Two books earlier, in PS, Ron saw himself as Head Boy in the Mirror of Erised. (But that means Ron has to go back to Hogwarts as a regular full-time student in DH. How can he do that if he's chasing after Horcruxes with Harry? Hmmmm.)
"we bought two hundred copies of The Invisible Book of Invisibility - cost a fortune, and we never found them ..." (manager of Flourish and Blotts)
Brilliant!!
"Fortean Fortescue's Ice Cream Parlor. It seems to be closed in HBP and one of the headmaster's portraits is named Fortescue. There must be a connection. Fortescue seems to know a lot about wizarding history. Or, at least, medieval witch burnings. Free sundaes?" (steve newton)
Harry does his homework at the ice cream parlour and he runs into Ron and Hermoine at the ice cream parlour. Why did Jo give that place, and it's owner, two mentions in this chapter? And why did she mention that Fortean Fortescue was sort of an expert on medieval witch-burnings? An innocent comment or something that will be significant in DH (especially since Fortescue was forcibly taken from his shop sometime during the summer of 1996)?
"I think that we all know enough to wonder who is beneath the balaclava." (Steve Newton)
Mudungus, maybe? Sent by Dumbledore to keep an eye on Harry?
"Don't be ridiculous, Ron. Black's not going to be caught by a thirteen-year-old wizard." (Arthur Weasley)
Oh yeah?? (smile)
"There was a thud on wood, and Harry was sure Mr. Weasley had banged his fist on the table."
This is one of the few times in all six books that we see Arthur get really angry.
Harry was more concerned about not being able to visit Hogsmeade than about the fact that the mass-murderer Black was after him. That sounds just like Harry.
Laura
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Mediwitch - Apr 8, 2007 6:37 pm (#27 of 257)
Good observations on Chapter 4, Steve and Laura!
I wondered if any of the other guests at the Leaky Cauldron, whom Harry liked to watch, were his guards and therefore were watching him. (Besides the possible Mundungus sighting, but would Dung order a plate of raw liver? Bleah!)
I also wondered how Florean Fortescue of the Ice Cream Parlor knew so much about medieval witch burnings, and if there is a connection between him and the headmaster Fortescue. And free sundaes every half an hour! It's a wonder Harry didn't gain a lot of weight!
I'm still amazed that Hermione's parents dropped her off alone in Diagon Alley a whole day before she had to be there, and Hermione was not quite yet 14 years old!
"we bought two hundred copies of The Invisible Book of Invisibility - cost a fortune, and we never found them ..."
One of my favorite lines from the book!
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Anna L. Black - Apr 9, 2007 2:19 am (#28 of 257)
I'm still amazed that Hermione's parents dropped her off alone in Diagon Alley a whole day before she had to be there, and Hermione was not quite yet 14 years old! - Mediwitch
You know, it has always surprised me that Hermione spends such a little time with her parents. She sometimes stays in school for the Christmas holidays, she spends a lot of time with the Weasleys during the summer, she leaves the family trip (in OotP) in order to return to 12GP.... I'd expect a girl like her to be very home-attached, and it's weird to me that she isn't (then again, it's JK's character, not mine ).
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Steve Newton - Apr 9, 2007 3:25 am (#29 of 257)
I have suggested this before, but, you know, she is an insufferable know it all.
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Uncle Brad - Apr 9, 2007 5:26 pm (#30 of 257)
I don't think it is unusual for the Grangers to drop Hermione off for what amounts to less than 1 day, knowing she is with her friends Ginny, Ron and Harry and under the watchful eye of Molly Weasley. The book was not clear if the Grangers helped her buy her things for school before leaving her on her own for the rest of the day. To me it makes sense, after having spent the entire summer with her family she gets one 'free' day with her friends before school. It is only book five and six that she starts staying away from home to an extreme. Of course being an INSUFFERABLE know it all might have pushed her parents a bit :~)
I agree that Fortescue seems to be the 'knife in act one type' of thing, but not having seen the final act I can only wonder. I also wonder about Harry's apparent love of ice cream and sundaes every half hour!!!
Ireland and the World Cup are mentioned, foreshadowing book 4.
Does Pettigrew have a bad ear? Scabbers does. They both have missing fingers.
Percy remains pompous and full of himself (maybe more so) while Ginny likes Fred and George's jokes and pranks.
Molly is being VERY protective of Harry, while Arthur seems to treat him a bit more like an adult. Different perspectives from his surrogate parents? I think the Weasleys were probably 'encouraged' to stay the night at Diagon Alley for Harry's sake.
'Invisible Book of Invisibility' - best line so far! Wonder if Dung sold them to the store :~)
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Laura W - Apr 10, 2007 12:14 am (#31 of 257)
"I also wonder about Harry's apparent love of ice cream and sundaes every half hour!!!" (Uncle Brad)
On two occasions when Harry is with the Dursleys we hear about him being deprived of ice cream when Dudley is eating it right in front of him. On Dudley's eleventh birthday, he and his friend Piers are bought huge chocolate ice cream cones at the zoo and Harry is grudgingly given a lemon ice (I'm imagining that to be a lemon popsicle). On Harry's twelfth birthday he is made to clean the windows, wash the car, mow the lawn, etc. in the blazing sun while Dudley lolls around eating ice cream.
Maybe the reference to Harry being able to eat all the ice cream he wants at Fortescue's Ice Cream Parlour is a way of contrasting his life with the Dursleys with his life among his own (wizard) people.
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Steve Newton - Apr 10, 2007 6:35 am (#32 of 257)
Ah, ice cream as a symbol of freedom. I like it.
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journeymom - Apr 10, 2007 9:01 am (#33 of 257)
I didn't notice that connection between Dudley's piggy consumption of ice cream and Harry's ice cream binge at Fortescue's. Great point.
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Jenniffler - Apr 10, 2007 9:28 am (#34 of 257)
Fortescue knows a lot about witch burnings
Conversation with my eight year old last night: Q: What did you learn reading POA so far that you didn't learn in the movie? A: That Lupin curled up like a wolf when he took that potion.
Q:Anything else? A: Yes, you know that witch Harry was reading about in chapter 1, well she liked to fake her death and get tickled. Hey Mom, isn't that what Peter Petigrew did too? He faked his death in front of a whole bunch of muggles. *Family gives high fives all around*
If an eight year old got it-- it probably could have been worked into the script. Sigh. Thank goodness for foreshadowing and themes and billiant authors.
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journeymom - Apr 10, 2007 9:37 am (#35 of 257)
Good job, Jenniffler's daughter! Way to see patterns and make connections!
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Laura W - Apr 10, 2007 6:11 pm (#36 of 257)
Thanks, Steve and Journeymom.
Laura
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Steve Newton - Apr 11, 2007 4:32 am (#37 of 257)
I've thought some more about the ice cream thing. I don't think that it is a symbol of freedom, we already have socks for that. I am leaning more toward a symbol of acceptance. Harry is accepted in the Wizarding World and Dudley in the Dursley world. As I recall it Harry does get some of Dudley's uneaten ice cream at the zoo. A very begrudging acceptance.
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Uncle Brad - Apr 11, 2007 7:37 pm (#38 of 257)
Well I am bested by Jenniffler's 8 year old daughter! I never made the connection between Wendelin's weird habit and Pettigrew faking his own death. Hats off to you!
I also like the connection of acceptance / freedom as it relates to ice cream. Harry got Dudley's seconds, but I figured it was more as a way to not waste the ice cream rather than any recognition or acceptance of Harry. I like Laura W's comparison of Harry's life among Muggles versus Wizards being reflected in the availability of ice cream.
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Jenniffler - Apr 12, 2007 10:43 am (#39 of 257)
Chapter Four:
Harry exhibits self control about that Firebolt. He could have just bought one. Just a thought.
Harry's mirror at the Leaky Cauldron is very wry in it's assessment of Harry's feeling.
Neville's grandmother must be from another planet. She does not see her opportunity to build his memory skills. As if the shop owners couldn't figure out what he needed with a simple conversation. She needs to let go of the kid. Neville missed out not getting to see his friends out of school. Also, telling off your kids in broad daylight is just bad form unless someone would be injured or insulted otherwise. *end of mom rant*
Ron and Hermione both cling to pets no one else wants or cares about. Very Dumblebore-esque. It is only funny because they recognize the loneliness in things that are born to hate one another. They both "protest too much."
When Molly and Arthur fight-- Does Harry ever overhear anything that doesn't directly relate to him?
Fear and Dementors. Which came first? It's a sort of chicken and egg thing.
Niffler Daugther sends her complements to the thread and thanks them for their kind words. She says she feels "Righteous" which I take to mean "Wicked!"
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Mediwitch - Apr 12, 2007 5:19 pm (#40 of 257)
Way to go Niffler Daughter!
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Steve Newton - Apr 13, 2007 12:04 pm (#41 of 257)
Chapter 5-The Dementor
Arthur seems confident of h is ability to handle Black.
Hermione logics out that Lupin is the DADA teacher. Using the same logic Harry comes to the wrong conclusion in HBP.
Why would the Sneakoscope go haywire when tied to Errol's leg? Is it going off now because Lupin is pretending to sleep?
Was the Hogshead the site of the 1612 goblin rebellion? Did anything interesting happen in England in 1612?
Ron know how to focus!
Goyle has gorilla-ish arms. Sort of a Slytherin trait.
There's a lot of strange stuff going on in that compartment. Foot stepping on, sitting on cats, falling down, bumping in doorways. The Marx Brothers and the 3 Stooges did this sort of stuff all of the time. Most of Harry's core group is here, lacking only Luna.
The Dementor's hand sounds an awful lot like the inferi in the cave. Dead, decayed in water.
The Dementor is cold. Cold seems like a bad thing, Voldemort is often described as cold, as was the Death Day Party. The only exception that comes to me off hand is the ice cream that we spoke of last chapter.
Ginny seemed to take the Dementor badly.
Trevor was with Neville.
There is a reminder of the winged boars at the gates of Hogwarts.
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journeymom - Apr 13, 2007 12:30 pm (#42 of 257)
Sneakoscope- wasn't it in Harry's trunk? I first thought it went off because Lupin was pretending to be asleep, but don't forget Scabbers was there, too.
Dementor's arm like the inferi- I noticed that, too, recently. I thought it was interesting that it pulled its arm back when Harry looked, like it was self-concious.
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Laura W - Apr 13, 2007 1:24 pm (#43 of 257)
"The Dementor is cold. Cold seems like a bad thing, Voldemort is often described as cold, as was the Death Day Party. The only exception that comes to me off hand is the ice cream that we spoke of last chapter." (Steve Newton)
In PS, Snape's eyes are described as being "cold and empty." In CoS, the 16-year-old Tom Riddle is described as having a "high-pitched, cold laugh" (as is LV on several occasions in the last three books). In CoS, both Lucius and Draco Malfoy are described as having "cold grey eyes." And Snape's classroom and his office (with no fire lit) are always cold.
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Hmm, I never thought Lupin was pretending to be asleep. I thought he really was. (scratches head) I, too, assumed - after I had finished PoA the first time, of course - that the Sneakascope went off because the phony rat was in the compartment.
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"Goyle has gorilla-ish arms. Sort of a Slytherin trait." (Steve Newton)
And Pansy Parkinson apparently looks somewhat like a pug dog. And Marcus Flint looks like he is part troll. (Except for the good-looking Blaise Zabini - whose mother was an uncommonly beautiful witch - Jo is not kind to the kids in that House, as far as their appearance goes.)
Laura
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Uncle Brad - Apr 14, 2007 5:47 pm (#44 of 257)
The only things I could find about 1612 was it was the first year the King James bible was published for mass use by commoners and that Prince Henry, Prince of wales died. Out British friends might have a bit more knowledge.
I always thought the sneakascope went off because of Scabbers, not Lupin. But I did wonder at the Marx Brothers bit - Lupin seems to be able to sleep through quite a lot, what with the kids talking all day, lunch, and the begining of the Dementor attack.
Harry and Ginny share a moment laughing at Percy. Ginny also shows up in Harry's compartment. Forshadowing the future? I always assumed Ginny took the Dementors badly because of her experience with Riddle. And speeking of foreshadowing - Harry assumes the carriages are pulled by invisible horses - forshadowing the Thesterals.
All of Griffindor seem to like Hagrid, chearing him on when it is announced he is the new teacher.
Harry once again reguards Hogwarts as home.
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Mediwitch - Apr 14, 2007 6:31 pm (#45 of 257)
I also wondered if Lupin wasn't faking - that's a very long time and a lot of noise to sleep through!
I always thought the sneakoscope went off in the train because of Scabbers/Wormtail, but Lupin shamming sleep could have caused it too. Steve, I think it went haywire when Ron tied it to Errol's leg because he wasn't supposed to be using Errol.
I agree about the Dementor's hand resembling the Inferi. Creepy.
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Laura W - Apr 14, 2007 11:33 pm (#46 of 257)
also with Chapter Five -
1. "The stranger was wearing an extremely shabby set of wizard's robes which had been darned in several places. He looked ill and exhausted. Though quite young, his light-brown hair was flecked with grey."
That paragragraph chokes me up every time I read it. (sniff, sniff)
2. Ron and Hermoine had never seen an adult on the Hogwarts Express before (except for the lunch witch). How do the other teachers get to the school? You can't Apparate in or out of Hogwarts. Do they fly there? If so, why couldn't have Lupin done the same?
3. Ron says, "I suppose he's asleep? I mean - he hasn't died, has he?"
Please, may that not be a foretelling of the future!
4. When Harry tells Madam Pomfrey that Lupin gave the children chocolate on the train to ward off the trauma of the Dementors, she says, "So we've finally go a Defence Against the Dark Arts teacher who knows his remedies."
As a man who has had a serious chronic illness since childhood (ie - lycanthropy), Lupin has probably done quite a bit of self-study on remedies for different medical conditions.
"Harry once again reguards Hogwarts as home." (Uncle Brad)
... just like Tom Marvolo Riddle did. (shudder)
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Tom Marvolo Riddleton - Apr 15, 2007 8:48 am (#47 of 257)
Ron and Hermoine had never seen an adult on the Hogwarts Express before (except for the lunch witch). How do the other teachers get to the school? You can't Apparate in or out of Hogwarts. Do they fly there? If so, why couldn't have Lupin done the same? - Laura W
I've thought about this before also. Might some teachers, like Hagrid, live at Hogwarts full time? Or might even other teachers, like Snape, who go to separate homes over the summer break, Apparate into Hogsmeade? Or, perhaps there is a very specific location on the Hogwarts grounds that somebody can Apparate to, kind of like when Dumbledore Apparated from the exact same spot as Tonks had after leaving the Burrow in the beginning of HBP. Only the teachers would know of it of course. It might even explain a little why Snape and Dumbledore had that argument in the forest, if perhaps that's where the specific Apparition-Safe spot is, because I had never assumed that the forest was a great place for a private conversation. Centaurs and the possible Hagrid wandering around would tend to make me avoid the area if I were searching for a little privacy. You could even argue that Dumbledore makes that little safe spot at some point around the year for the teachers to come in but then eliminates it. The Great Hall's Anti-Apparition enchantment had been lifted for a short period of time for Apparition lessons. The only reason I put so much effort into pointing out Apparition is that one could argue that Lupin was simply in no condition (I'm guessing it's meant to be implied that he had just transformed from a werewolf back to human form) to attempt to Apparate. He was far too weak, he may have splinched himself. Then again, perhaps it's something simpler like it was simply very convenient for Lupin to take the train from where we was leaving off to go to Hogwarts, or perhaps Dumbledore simply felt more comfortable having a teacher on board with Sirius Black on the loose.
Oh. Teachers could also use Floo Powder.
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Choices - Apr 15, 2007 12:20 pm (#48 of 257)
It's interesting that Slughorn took the train, also....in HBP.
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Laura W - Apr 15, 2007 5:22 pm (#49 of 257)
"The only reason I put so much effort into pointing out Apparition is that one could argue that Lupin was simply in no condition (I'm guessing it's meant to be implied that he had just transformed from a werewolf back to human form) to attempt to Apparate. He was far too weak, he may have splinched himself."
I have another - but somewhat similar - take on this, TMR . Judging by his appearance, it seems that Lupin *had* just come out of a bout of illness. So maybe even doing the long broomstick ride from wherever in England he lives all the the way up to Scotland where Hogwarts is would have been very taxing for him. Too weak, as you say. Much more sensible to take a comfortable train ride where he could catch up on his sleep.
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Good catch, Choices. I missed that. (I mean, I knew he took the train in HBP, of course. I just didn't put it together with Lupin taking the train in PoA.)
Of course, Slughorn probably tavelled that way in order to get his newly-formed Slug Club started as soon as possible. (smile) Scouting out the current talent, as it were.
Laura
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totyle - Apr 16, 2007 7:03 pm (#50 of 257)
Funny bit in Chapter 5. When Harry finally gets into the train after his talk with Mr Weasley, he tells Ron and Hermione that he needs to talk to them in private, ie excluding Ginny. Ron then tells Ginny to go away and she walks away in a huff. Harry can hardly be bothered! Funny that in HBP, Harry is on his own without Ron and Hermione and seeks Ginny, but she then walks away from him leaving him feeling a strange twinge of annoyance!
Mrs Brisbee - Mar 30, 2007 3:59 am (#1 of 257)
Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban, Chapter 1, "Owl Post":
I think Rowling develops important themes in each of her books. In PoA, one really stands out in the first chapter: Family. Another, Time, is set up for the future.
The book opens with Harry doing his history homework-- appropriately, given the theme. History isn't exactly as it might seem. With new information Harry is able to see that the medieval witch burnings weren't exactly as Muggles perceived them.
How an event is perceived will color how everything that came before it is viewed, and since people will act based on how their perceptions, it will effect everything that comes after.
We also again are reminded of the Dursley's feelings for Harry. Although his blood relatives, they don't nurture him. They have done their best to deny him his heritage by lying about his past, not allowing questions, and keeping him miserable. They are not good family.
When the Weasleys win extra money, something they don't usually have, they spend it to bring their family together. Ron is in Egypt with his entire family; we see him surrounded by his kin in the Daily Prophet photograph. Hermione is also with her family, vacationing in France.
The Dursleys ignore Harry's birthday, as they have ever since he got his Hogwarts letter. It is Harry's first three friends-- Hagrid, Ron and Hermione-- who make him happy for the first time ever that it is his birthday. And Hedwig is pleased to have brought Harry the gift from Hermione. They are better family than the Dursleys ever were.
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Steve Newton - Mar 30, 2007 11:29 am (#2 of 257)
Well done, Mrs. B!
I don't have much, but here goes.
Chapter 1-Owl Post
Harry must put way too much pressure on the pen when he writes if the sound would wake the Dursleys.
Harry demonstrates his lock picking skills.
On the phone issue Harry seems to think that Hermione has more sense than Ron.
Owls certainly seem to be intelligent. They help one another and seem to know that their owners need.
Bill is a curse breaker. Could be useful.
I guess that Dobby intercepted the birthday cards last year.
Hagrid has given Harry gifts of an own and a book. I can't remember anything else. Oh, yeah, the pipe or horn or whatever that gets them past Fluffy in SS.
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Mediwitch - Mar 30, 2007 6:33 pm (#3 of 257)
Good point about Dobby intercepting last year's cards.
Chapter One: Owl Post
I agree with Mrs. Brisbee. The Weasleys get a bit of gold and spend it on bringing their family together. Big difference from the divisive Dursleys.
Oh yeah, Bill the curse breaker. That's gotta come in handy!
I guess that's all - these first chapters contain a bit of backstory for catching up. I probably don't read them carefully enough because of that!
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Uncle Brad - Mar 30, 2007 7:18 pm (#4 of 257)
I'll throw my two knuts in on Chapter 1:
Ron is in communication with Hermione, having sent her a letter telling her about the phone incident.
The Weasley's using their money to get the family together. This isn't the first time as they went to see Charlie in Year 1. The Dursleys on the other hand like to just brag to the neighbors about the new car.
I also noticed Harry's lock picking ability.
The Dursley's medieval attitudes on wizards, how does this compare to the wizards medieval attitudes towards clothes styles?
Spiders are already mentioned.
Hermione gives Harry a fun but practical gift (and very thoughtful too), Ron gives a similar fun gift, but not as practical (yet?). Also - owls seem to be able to carry a lot (including other owls) as well as being very smart.
In the end, Harry felt like everyone else - glad that it was his birthday.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Mar 30, 2007 8:31 pm (#5 of 257)
Of all the gifts Harry recieved Hagrid's while necessary is the most impractical, also I believe Hagrid's gift foreshadows Hagrid's elevation to the status of a professor.
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Laura W - Mar 31, 2007 3:57 am (#6 of 257)
"Hagrid has given Harry gifts of an own and a book. I can't remember anything else. Oh, yeah, the pipe or horn or whatever that gets them past Fluffy in SS." (Steve Newton)
On Harry's eleventh birthday Hagrid gave him a cake with the words "Happy Birthday Harry" in green icing on it. It too was a gift, along with the owl. The first time in Harry's memory that he had had a cake (although I suspect Lily and James had one for him on his first birthday), a present of any kind or even an acknowledgment that he had turned another year older. Hagrid was the very first person in Harry's life - he wouldn't remember his first 15 months that well - who celebrated his existence. (sob!)
Throughout all six books, the Dursleys never did acknowledge Harry's birthdays; through either word or deed. And the total of their Christmas gifts to him consisted of a clothes hanger, Uncle Vernon's old socks, a tissue, and a 50-pence piece. In contrast to the lovely and loving presents he received from Ron, Molly, Hermoine, Fred and George (the Map), Hagrid, and Sirius (the Firebolt) -- his *real* family.
Laura
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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 31, 2007 7:57 am (#7 of 257)
Nice observations, everyone, especially about the presents Hagrid has given Harry. Hedwig has been an important present, because during the summer she is present; Harry notes that she is the only friend he has in the Dursleys' House.
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Steve Newton - Apr 1, 2007 6:18 pm (#8 of 257)
First of all, in my post #2 I say "Hagrid has given Harry gifts of an own." Obviously that should say owl.
Chapter 2-Aunt Marge's Big Mistake
Vernon seems to equate cleanliness with goodness.
When Petunia "peered intently" out of the window it seemed similar to Snape in Spinner's End.
Harry has picked up a nastily effective negotiation style. I like it.
Marge would have sent Harry to an orphanage. Tom's fate.
The exploding wine glass. It has happened to Marge before. Is she doing magic?
I don't recall ever Harry having exploded anything before. Am I forgetting something?
Col. Fubster is mentioned 3 times.
The cupboard door opens before Harry gets there. Wandless magic.
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Choices - Apr 1, 2007 6:26 pm (#9 of 257)
Steve - "I don't recall ever Harry having exploded anything before. Am I forgetting something?"
I think that is a reference to the explosion at Godric's Hollow. Petunia obviously knows that the house was in ruins when Harry was gotten out by Hagrid and wants to blame Harry for the destruction.
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Laura W - Apr 2, 2007 3:22 am (#10 of 257)
Edited Apr 2, 2007 4:44 am
"Vernon seems to equate cleanliness with goodness."
In that scene, Vernon calls Sirius a "layabout" and then follows it with "Look at his hair." James Potter had messy hair and Vernon tells Marge that Lily's husband "didn't work." Again, a connection with messy hair and laziness made by Uncle Vernon.
I noticed the wandless magic too, Steve.
Sorry, Choices. I don't think so. The line in this chapter of PoA is Harry thinking to himself that "it had been a long time since he'd lost control and made something explode," so I believe it is referring to an explosion Harry did cause when he got angry and that he knows he caused. JM2K Hmm, what would it be?
Edited to add ---
Aunt Marge spends a whole evening saying the most vile, horrible things about Lily Evans and James Potter right in front of their orphaned 13-year-old son. What a cruel person she is!
Notably, the whole time Marge is spouting off, Petunia says not one word in favour of or in defence of her sister or her sister's character. She just allows Marge to paint Lily in the worst terms. Does she really hate her that much? Apparently so. It's not Lily's fault that she was a witch; she was born that way.
Aunt Marge makes references to the importance of blood. A theme throughout the books (eg - Lucius Malfoy and Mrs. Black declaring the superiority of pure-bloods, Peter taking Harry's blood for Voldemort, etc.).
Laura
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Uncle Brad - Apr 2, 2007 5:18 pm (#11 of 257)
Vernon and Petunia have always had a thing about messy hair. Harry had to get more haircuts than any kid in his school. Dudley is always described as having perfectly flat hair pasted to his head.
Dudley looks after Dudley - getting 20 pounds for putting up with Aunt Marge.
Aunt Marge gets drunk then accuses Harry's parents of being drunk when they crashed the car. She is a piece of work. No wonder Ripper is evil tempered. She is also not as 'proper' as she would want everyone to believe, wiping her face with her sleeve, belching and the like. It goes along with the 'eating bad whelks' from book one as well.
It was interesting that Sirius Black escaped within a week of learning about Peter. He must have had a plan to get out in the back of his mind all along.
Harry blew up the glass, blew up aunt Marge, and opened the cupboard door all without a wand. It all appeared to be emotionally related, similar to when he ended up on the school roof or turned his teacher's hair colors. Is this why he is able to blast his enemys off their feet with simple spells - higher emotions? I don't recall any mention of him blowing something up in the previous books - could it have happened before he went to Hogwarts?
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Choices - Apr 2, 2007 5:51 pm (#12 of 257)
I have to disagree Laura - sorry. The house at Godric's Hollow is the only house we have heard of that explodes when Harry is around. I have to believe Petunia feels Harry is to blame for the Godric's Hollow explosion and fears if Harry is left alone, she will come home to find her house in ruins.
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Steve Newton - Apr 3, 2007 8:06 am (#13 of 257)
It may be referring to Godric's Hollow but Harry, as of yet, does not seem to remember this. Also, I don't think that Harry blew up anything there. We don't really know though.
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Choices - Apr 3, 2007 2:40 pm (#14 of 257)
Steve, I was in no way saying that Harry was responsible for blowing up the Godric's Hollow house, but in Petunia's mind, I think she sees him as responsible. The Dursley's like to blame Harry for everything and I think this is no exception. Petunia hears that the Godric's Hollow house was in ruins and just assumes that Harry was to blame. I'm sure she is convinced that, if left alone, Harry will do the same to her house.
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Mrs. Sirius - Apr 3, 2007 11:10 pm (#15 of 257)
There is a poignant point that I would like to add about Hewdig, that I saw when I read POA in Spanish because the English language so vast.
The quote is something to the effect of Hedwig is the only one at 4 Privet Drive that doesn't "shiver" when they see Harry. So Harry is really suffering loneliness and isolation during the summers.
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Luna Logic - Apr 4, 2007 1:29 am (#16 of 257)
Edited by Apr 4, 2007 1:29 am
Adding my reading of the two chapters and of the messages: Chapter one :
I agree with Mrs Brisbee, the opening theme in PoA is family, more precisely the essential function of a family which is to “nurture” each of its members with emotional ties. The situation is very different when the ties are positive ones - only those can make one secure. On the contrary, the Dursley have provided Harry with negative emotional bonds. Each time they see him, their return is negative.
Harry is slowly constructing a new secure “family” as resumed in the thread: his first three friends and Hedwig, the Weasley family…
Interesting to think that this book is the one where Harry is to discover he has a godfather. Moreover, the first chapter’s end points to the lack of a positive guardian, who could have signed the Hogsmeade visit’s permission, thus permitting to Harry a real social life of his own- another important family function.
Chapter two :
Steve Newton’s remark is intriguing: When Petunia "peered intently" out of the window it seemed similar to Snape in Spinner's End. (Hmm , could it be resulting from t old and similar practices in a common neighborough?)
I agree with Uncle Brad about the importance of Harry’s emotional - or instinctive? - magic: Harry blew up the glass, blew up aunt Marge, and opened the cupboard door all without a wand. It all appeared to be emotionally related, similar to when he ended up on the school roof or turned his teacher's hair colors. Is this why he is able to blast his enemys off their feet with simple spells - higher emotions?
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Steve Newton - Apr 4, 2007 10:17 am (#17 of 257)
Probably a tad early but here goes.
Chapter 3-The Knight Bus
Harry has several prickling neck sensations in the books. I usually connect them to powerful magic, like at Ollivander's, but this seems to be him sensing someones presence.
This seems to be the same alley he and Dudley meet the dementors in in OOTP.
Out of everyone he knows he chooses Neville's name.
Ernie Prang, one of the few repeating first names. Ernie Macmillan being the other.
How did Peter blow up the street?
Was this before Crouch escaped? Probably not.
Harry seems to equate blowing up his aunt with murder. He is clearly not thinking straight.
Tom, another of the few repeating first names. A plethora of Tom Riddles and another one that I can't remember right now.
"Accidental Magic."
In the Muggle world Fudge would be a fool to sign the permission form for Harry.
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Steve Newton - Apr 4, 2007 12:39 pm (#18 of 257)
I just realized that I skipped a line in my comments on chapter 2.
Marge is one of several people in the books who seem to have a problem with alcohol, Hagrid, Sirius, and Mundungus.
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Laura W - Apr 4, 2007 1:41 pm (#19 of 257)
1 -
Marge is one of several people in the books who seem to have a problem with alcohol, Hagrid, Sirius, and Mundungus.
And Winky, Steve. And probably Mrs. Cole, from the sound of it. And, of course, Sybill.
2 -
"Harry seems to equate blowing up his aunt with murder. He is clearly not thinking straight."
At this point, he is not familiar with how Azkaban works or what crimes would result in what kind of sentences. Therefore, he, at 13-years-old, might indeed be afraid that his "crime" might put him into wizard prison for life. (It's not until GoF that he learns about the Unforgivables.)
Laura
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Steve Newton - Apr 4, 2007 2:18 pm (#20 of 257)
And Winky, Steve. And probably Mrs. Cole, from the sound of it. And, of course, Sybill.
Geez, I missed quite a lot, didn't I.
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Laura W - Apr 4, 2007 2:26 pm (#21 of 257)
Edited Apr 4, 2007 3:28 pm
That's ok, Steve. You were the one who brought up the point that several characters drink too much. I just took the ball (the Quaffle?) and ran with it. (smile)
And we don't know what Mad-Eye Moody has in that flask he keeps drinking from, do we? Hmmmm. I have a feeling that an old grisled veteran like him wouldn't exactly be drinking pumpkin juice.
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Uncle Brad - Apr 4, 2007 5:41 pm (#22 of 257)
Back on chapter two and the theme of family - Harry manages to survive, even excel even with having the Dursleys as his family. They treat him like dirt and he turns out ok. Dudley is treated like a prince and ends up as he does. Does this have some bearing on Dumbledore's comment later about the damage inflicted on Dudley?
Another thing I noted was that Harry 'escaped' from Number 4 Privet Drive soon after Sirius escaped from Azkaban. Both ended up literally out in the streets.
Chapter 3 - The Knight Bus. Appropriate transportation for the hero.
Stan Shunpike giving Harry advice 'You oughta read the papers more...'. Advice he should have taken later in life.
It is the first mention of Charing Cross Road in relation to the location of the Leaky Cauldron that I remember.
More wandless magic, this time by Tom, who snapped his fingers to light the fire.
Fudge is obviously hiding something or withholding information from Harry. There are lots of clues that there is danger for Harry from Sirius Black.
We seem to have lost a week somewhere. Aunt Marge arrived on Harry's birthday and stayed a week. Harry then arrived in Diagon Alley with only two weeks until school started, making August only three weeks long!
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Uncle Brad - Apr 4, 2007 5:55 pm (#23 of 257)
From Steve's comments - It is the same alley that Harry & Dudley met the dementors later in life. 'Dudley Demented'
Peter blew up the street with MAGIC -what else? :~)
Sirius escaped AFTER Barty Crouch escaped. Barty was put into Azkaban for torturing Neville's parents soon after Voldemort's fall. He escaped almost immediatly, but it was never discovered because his mother took his place and died in Azkaban. He spent the past several years under his father's imperious curse and only managed to escape that after the World Cup.
Slughorn seems to be able to hold his own in a drinking contest too. Like you said, lots of people seem to indulge a bit too much.
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totyle - Apr 4, 2007 7:12 pm (#24 of 257)
In Chapter Two it is also interesting to note that Harry's interactions with the Dursleys has changed somewhat compared to in the previous two books. He has matured enough to be able to hold his ground as can be seen when he bargains with Vernon to get the Hogsmead form signed. He keeps cool and calm and its Vernon who panics in that conversation.
In spite of this, he does lose his cool completely at the end of the Chapter, but that's because he had been goaded just too much. And even then he stood his ground, he wasnt submitting to Vernon's roaring to come back and put Marge right.
This Chapter is showing how Harry is maturing enough and that the Dursleys just can't brow beat him to do their bidding as before.
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Steve Newton - Apr 8, 2007 7:02 am (#25 of 257)
Chapter 4-The Leaky Cauldron
Another dwarf sighting. I only remembered Lockhart's Valentine's dwarfs. (Dwarves?)
I think that we all know enough to wonder who is beneath the balaclava.
Fortean Fortescue's Ice Cream Parlor. It seems to be closed in HBP and one of the headmaster's portraits is named Fortescue. There must be a connection. Fortescue seems to know a lot about wizarding history. Or, at least, medieval witch burnings. Free sundaes?
I think that Harry's brooms, a Firebolt and a Nimbus 2000, must have meaning. Lightning and cloud, but...I got nothing.
Unbreakable braking charm. I like it.
100 copies of the COMC book suggests that there are many students that we never see.
"Broken Ball: When Fortunes Turn Foul" No comment.
Neville's description-Round faced, forgetful. He has lost a list. He will lose another.
The Weasley's are staying at the Leaky Cauldron. They must have prize money left. Or the Ministry is going the extra mile to protect Harry.
Ron's new wand, 14 inches, willow, unicorn tail hair.
The black rats playing skipping games remind me of an old cartoon. 3 blind mice, maybe. It might come to me someday.
"Bang him on the counter." Is this a common expression? I don't know it. Bang sounds out of place to me.
I don't think that Percy will be the last Head Boy in the family.
Ron and Percy are in room 12.
Harry didn't hear the whole argument between the Weasley's. I think that he missed some key information.
Is it Peter trying to lose the rat tonic?
The mirror in Harry's room is magnificent.
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Laura W - Apr 8, 2007 12:39 pm (#26 of 257)
"I don't think that Percy will be the last Head Boy in the family." (Steve Newton)
Two books earlier, in PS, Ron saw himself as Head Boy in the Mirror of Erised. (But that means Ron has to go back to Hogwarts as a regular full-time student in DH. How can he do that if he's chasing after Horcruxes with Harry? Hmmmm.)
"we bought two hundred copies of The Invisible Book of Invisibility - cost a fortune, and we never found them ..." (manager of Flourish and Blotts)
Brilliant!!
"Fortean Fortescue's Ice Cream Parlor. It seems to be closed in HBP and one of the headmaster's portraits is named Fortescue. There must be a connection. Fortescue seems to know a lot about wizarding history. Or, at least, medieval witch burnings. Free sundaes?" (steve newton)
Harry does his homework at the ice cream parlour and he runs into Ron and Hermoine at the ice cream parlour. Why did Jo give that place, and it's owner, two mentions in this chapter? And why did she mention that Fortean Fortescue was sort of an expert on medieval witch-burnings? An innocent comment or something that will be significant in DH (especially since Fortescue was forcibly taken from his shop sometime during the summer of 1996)?
"I think that we all know enough to wonder who is beneath the balaclava." (Steve Newton)
Mudungus, maybe? Sent by Dumbledore to keep an eye on Harry?
"Don't be ridiculous, Ron. Black's not going to be caught by a thirteen-year-old wizard." (Arthur Weasley)
Oh yeah?? (smile)
"There was a thud on wood, and Harry was sure Mr. Weasley had banged his fist on the table."
This is one of the few times in all six books that we see Arthur get really angry.
Harry was more concerned about not being able to visit Hogsmeade than about the fact that the mass-murderer Black was after him. That sounds just like Harry.
Laura
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Mediwitch - Apr 8, 2007 6:37 pm (#27 of 257)
Good observations on Chapter 4, Steve and Laura!
I wondered if any of the other guests at the Leaky Cauldron, whom Harry liked to watch, were his guards and therefore were watching him. (Besides the possible Mundungus sighting, but would Dung order a plate of raw liver? Bleah!)
I also wondered how Florean Fortescue of the Ice Cream Parlor knew so much about medieval witch burnings, and if there is a connection between him and the headmaster Fortescue. And free sundaes every half an hour! It's a wonder Harry didn't gain a lot of weight!
I'm still amazed that Hermione's parents dropped her off alone in Diagon Alley a whole day before she had to be there, and Hermione was not quite yet 14 years old!
"we bought two hundred copies of The Invisible Book of Invisibility - cost a fortune, and we never found them ..."
One of my favorite lines from the book!
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Anna L. Black - Apr 9, 2007 2:19 am (#28 of 257)
I'm still amazed that Hermione's parents dropped her off alone in Diagon Alley a whole day before she had to be there, and Hermione was not quite yet 14 years old! - Mediwitch
You know, it has always surprised me that Hermione spends such a little time with her parents. She sometimes stays in school for the Christmas holidays, she spends a lot of time with the Weasleys during the summer, she leaves the family trip (in OotP) in order to return to 12GP.... I'd expect a girl like her to be very home-attached, and it's weird to me that she isn't (then again, it's JK's character, not mine ).
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Steve Newton - Apr 9, 2007 3:25 am (#29 of 257)
I have suggested this before, but, you know, she is an insufferable know it all.
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Uncle Brad - Apr 9, 2007 5:26 pm (#30 of 257)
I don't think it is unusual for the Grangers to drop Hermione off for what amounts to less than 1 day, knowing she is with her friends Ginny, Ron and Harry and under the watchful eye of Molly Weasley. The book was not clear if the Grangers helped her buy her things for school before leaving her on her own for the rest of the day. To me it makes sense, after having spent the entire summer with her family she gets one 'free' day with her friends before school. It is only book five and six that she starts staying away from home to an extreme. Of course being an INSUFFERABLE know it all might have pushed her parents a bit :~)
I agree that Fortescue seems to be the 'knife in act one type' of thing, but not having seen the final act I can only wonder. I also wonder about Harry's apparent love of ice cream and sundaes every half hour!!!
Ireland and the World Cup are mentioned, foreshadowing book 4.
Does Pettigrew have a bad ear? Scabbers does. They both have missing fingers.
Percy remains pompous and full of himself (maybe more so) while Ginny likes Fred and George's jokes and pranks.
Molly is being VERY protective of Harry, while Arthur seems to treat him a bit more like an adult. Different perspectives from his surrogate parents? I think the Weasleys were probably 'encouraged' to stay the night at Diagon Alley for Harry's sake.
'Invisible Book of Invisibility' - best line so far! Wonder if Dung sold them to the store :~)
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Laura W - Apr 10, 2007 12:14 am (#31 of 257)
"I also wonder about Harry's apparent love of ice cream and sundaes every half hour!!!" (Uncle Brad)
On two occasions when Harry is with the Dursleys we hear about him being deprived of ice cream when Dudley is eating it right in front of him. On Dudley's eleventh birthday, he and his friend Piers are bought huge chocolate ice cream cones at the zoo and Harry is grudgingly given a lemon ice (I'm imagining that to be a lemon popsicle). On Harry's twelfth birthday he is made to clean the windows, wash the car, mow the lawn, etc. in the blazing sun while Dudley lolls around eating ice cream.
Maybe the reference to Harry being able to eat all the ice cream he wants at Fortescue's Ice Cream Parlour is a way of contrasting his life with the Dursleys with his life among his own (wizard) people.
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Steve Newton - Apr 10, 2007 6:35 am (#32 of 257)
Ah, ice cream as a symbol of freedom. I like it.
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journeymom - Apr 10, 2007 9:01 am (#33 of 257)
I didn't notice that connection between Dudley's piggy consumption of ice cream and Harry's ice cream binge at Fortescue's. Great point.
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Jenniffler - Apr 10, 2007 9:28 am (#34 of 257)
Fortescue knows a lot about witch burnings
Conversation with my eight year old last night: Q: What did you learn reading POA so far that you didn't learn in the movie? A: That Lupin curled up like a wolf when he took that potion.
Q:Anything else? A: Yes, you know that witch Harry was reading about in chapter 1, well she liked to fake her death and get tickled. Hey Mom, isn't that what Peter Petigrew did too? He faked his death in front of a whole bunch of muggles. *Family gives high fives all around*
If an eight year old got it-- it probably could have been worked into the script. Sigh. Thank goodness for foreshadowing and themes and billiant authors.
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journeymom - Apr 10, 2007 9:37 am (#35 of 257)
Good job, Jenniffler's daughter! Way to see patterns and make connections!
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Laura W - Apr 10, 2007 6:11 pm (#36 of 257)
Thanks, Steve and Journeymom.
Laura
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Steve Newton - Apr 11, 2007 4:32 am (#37 of 257)
I've thought some more about the ice cream thing. I don't think that it is a symbol of freedom, we already have socks for that. I am leaning more toward a symbol of acceptance. Harry is accepted in the Wizarding World and Dudley in the Dursley world. As I recall it Harry does get some of Dudley's uneaten ice cream at the zoo. A very begrudging acceptance.
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Uncle Brad - Apr 11, 2007 7:37 pm (#38 of 257)
Well I am bested by Jenniffler's 8 year old daughter! I never made the connection between Wendelin's weird habit and Pettigrew faking his own death. Hats off to you!
I also like the connection of acceptance / freedom as it relates to ice cream. Harry got Dudley's seconds, but I figured it was more as a way to not waste the ice cream rather than any recognition or acceptance of Harry. I like Laura W's comparison of Harry's life among Muggles versus Wizards being reflected in the availability of ice cream.
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Jenniffler - Apr 12, 2007 10:43 am (#39 of 257)
Chapter Four:
Harry exhibits self control about that Firebolt. He could have just bought one. Just a thought.
Harry's mirror at the Leaky Cauldron is very wry in it's assessment of Harry's feeling.
Neville's grandmother must be from another planet. She does not see her opportunity to build his memory skills. As if the shop owners couldn't figure out what he needed with a simple conversation. She needs to let go of the kid. Neville missed out not getting to see his friends out of school. Also, telling off your kids in broad daylight is just bad form unless someone would be injured or insulted otherwise. *end of mom rant*
Ron and Hermione both cling to pets no one else wants or cares about. Very Dumblebore-esque. It is only funny because they recognize the loneliness in things that are born to hate one another. They both "protest too much."
When Molly and Arthur fight-- Does Harry ever overhear anything that doesn't directly relate to him?
Fear and Dementors. Which came first? It's a sort of chicken and egg thing.
Niffler Daugther sends her complements to the thread and thanks them for their kind words. She says she feels "Righteous" which I take to mean "Wicked!"
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Mediwitch - Apr 12, 2007 5:19 pm (#40 of 257)
Way to go Niffler Daughter!
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Steve Newton - Apr 13, 2007 12:04 pm (#41 of 257)
Chapter 5-The Dementor
Arthur seems confident of h is ability to handle Black.
Hermione logics out that Lupin is the DADA teacher. Using the same logic Harry comes to the wrong conclusion in HBP.
Why would the Sneakoscope go haywire when tied to Errol's leg? Is it going off now because Lupin is pretending to sleep?
Was the Hogshead the site of the 1612 goblin rebellion? Did anything interesting happen in England in 1612?
Ron know how to focus!
Goyle has gorilla-ish arms. Sort of a Slytherin trait.
There's a lot of strange stuff going on in that compartment. Foot stepping on, sitting on cats, falling down, bumping in doorways. The Marx Brothers and the 3 Stooges did this sort of stuff all of the time. Most of Harry's core group is here, lacking only Luna.
The Dementor's hand sounds an awful lot like the inferi in the cave. Dead, decayed in water.
The Dementor is cold. Cold seems like a bad thing, Voldemort is often described as cold, as was the Death Day Party. The only exception that comes to me off hand is the ice cream that we spoke of last chapter.
Ginny seemed to take the Dementor badly.
Trevor was with Neville.
There is a reminder of the winged boars at the gates of Hogwarts.
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journeymom - Apr 13, 2007 12:30 pm (#42 of 257)
Sneakoscope- wasn't it in Harry's trunk? I first thought it went off because Lupin was pretending to be asleep, but don't forget Scabbers was there, too.
Dementor's arm like the inferi- I noticed that, too, recently. I thought it was interesting that it pulled its arm back when Harry looked, like it was self-concious.
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Laura W - Apr 13, 2007 1:24 pm (#43 of 257)
"The Dementor is cold. Cold seems like a bad thing, Voldemort is often described as cold, as was the Death Day Party. The only exception that comes to me off hand is the ice cream that we spoke of last chapter." (Steve Newton)
In PS, Snape's eyes are described as being "cold and empty." In CoS, the 16-year-old Tom Riddle is described as having a "high-pitched, cold laugh" (as is LV on several occasions in the last three books). In CoS, both Lucius and Draco Malfoy are described as having "cold grey eyes." And Snape's classroom and his office (with no fire lit) are always cold.
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Hmm, I never thought Lupin was pretending to be asleep. I thought he really was. (scratches head) I, too, assumed - after I had finished PoA the first time, of course - that the Sneakascope went off because the phony rat was in the compartment.
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"Goyle has gorilla-ish arms. Sort of a Slytherin trait." (Steve Newton)
And Pansy Parkinson apparently looks somewhat like a pug dog. And Marcus Flint looks like he is part troll. (Except for the good-looking Blaise Zabini - whose mother was an uncommonly beautiful witch - Jo is not kind to the kids in that House, as far as their appearance goes.)
Laura
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Uncle Brad - Apr 14, 2007 5:47 pm (#44 of 257)
The only things I could find about 1612 was it was the first year the King James bible was published for mass use by commoners and that Prince Henry, Prince of wales died. Out British friends might have a bit more knowledge.
I always thought the sneakascope went off because of Scabbers, not Lupin. But I did wonder at the Marx Brothers bit - Lupin seems to be able to sleep through quite a lot, what with the kids talking all day, lunch, and the begining of the Dementor attack.
Harry and Ginny share a moment laughing at Percy. Ginny also shows up in Harry's compartment. Forshadowing the future? I always assumed Ginny took the Dementors badly because of her experience with Riddle. And speeking of foreshadowing - Harry assumes the carriages are pulled by invisible horses - forshadowing the Thesterals.
All of Griffindor seem to like Hagrid, chearing him on when it is announced he is the new teacher.
Harry once again reguards Hogwarts as home.
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Mediwitch - Apr 14, 2007 6:31 pm (#45 of 257)
I also wondered if Lupin wasn't faking - that's a very long time and a lot of noise to sleep through!
I always thought the sneakoscope went off in the train because of Scabbers/Wormtail, but Lupin shamming sleep could have caused it too. Steve, I think it went haywire when Ron tied it to Errol's leg because he wasn't supposed to be using Errol.
I agree about the Dementor's hand resembling the Inferi. Creepy.
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Laura W - Apr 14, 2007 11:33 pm (#46 of 257)
also with Chapter Five -
1. "The stranger was wearing an extremely shabby set of wizard's robes which had been darned in several places. He looked ill and exhausted. Though quite young, his light-brown hair was flecked with grey."
That paragragraph chokes me up every time I read it. (sniff, sniff)
2. Ron and Hermoine had never seen an adult on the Hogwarts Express before (except for the lunch witch). How do the other teachers get to the school? You can't Apparate in or out of Hogwarts. Do they fly there? If so, why couldn't have Lupin done the same?
3. Ron says, "I suppose he's asleep? I mean - he hasn't died, has he?"
Please, may that not be a foretelling of the future!
4. When Harry tells Madam Pomfrey that Lupin gave the children chocolate on the train to ward off the trauma of the Dementors, she says, "So we've finally go a Defence Against the Dark Arts teacher who knows his remedies."
As a man who has had a serious chronic illness since childhood (ie - lycanthropy), Lupin has probably done quite a bit of self-study on remedies for different medical conditions.
"Harry once again reguards Hogwarts as home." (Uncle Brad)
... just like Tom Marvolo Riddle did. (shudder)
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Tom Marvolo Riddleton - Apr 15, 2007 8:48 am (#47 of 257)
Ron and Hermoine had never seen an adult on the Hogwarts Express before (except for the lunch witch). How do the other teachers get to the school? You can't Apparate in or out of Hogwarts. Do they fly there? If so, why couldn't have Lupin done the same? - Laura W
I've thought about this before also. Might some teachers, like Hagrid, live at Hogwarts full time? Or might even other teachers, like Snape, who go to separate homes over the summer break, Apparate into Hogsmeade? Or, perhaps there is a very specific location on the Hogwarts grounds that somebody can Apparate to, kind of like when Dumbledore Apparated from the exact same spot as Tonks had after leaving the Burrow in the beginning of HBP. Only the teachers would know of it of course. It might even explain a little why Snape and Dumbledore had that argument in the forest, if perhaps that's where the specific Apparition-Safe spot is, because I had never assumed that the forest was a great place for a private conversation. Centaurs and the possible Hagrid wandering around would tend to make me avoid the area if I were searching for a little privacy. You could even argue that Dumbledore makes that little safe spot at some point around the year for the teachers to come in but then eliminates it. The Great Hall's Anti-Apparition enchantment had been lifted for a short period of time for Apparition lessons. The only reason I put so much effort into pointing out Apparition is that one could argue that Lupin was simply in no condition (I'm guessing it's meant to be implied that he had just transformed from a werewolf back to human form) to attempt to Apparate. He was far too weak, he may have splinched himself. Then again, perhaps it's something simpler like it was simply very convenient for Lupin to take the train from where we was leaving off to go to Hogwarts, or perhaps Dumbledore simply felt more comfortable having a teacher on board with Sirius Black on the loose.
Oh. Teachers could also use Floo Powder.
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Choices - Apr 15, 2007 12:20 pm (#48 of 257)
It's interesting that Slughorn took the train, also....in HBP.
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Laura W - Apr 15, 2007 5:22 pm (#49 of 257)
"The only reason I put so much effort into pointing out Apparition is that one could argue that Lupin was simply in no condition (I'm guessing it's meant to be implied that he had just transformed from a werewolf back to human form) to attempt to Apparate. He was far too weak, he may have splinched himself."
I have another - but somewhat similar - take on this, TMR . Judging by his appearance, it seems that Lupin *had* just come out of a bout of illness. So maybe even doing the long broomstick ride from wherever in England he lives all the the way up to Scotland where Hogwarts is would have been very taxing for him. Too weak, as you say. Much more sensible to take a comfortable train ride where he could catch up on his sleep.
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Good catch, Choices. I missed that. (I mean, I knew he took the train in HBP, of course. I just didn't put it together with Lupin taking the train in PoA.)
Of course, Slughorn probably tavelled that way in order to get his newly-formed Slug Club started as soon as possible. (smile) Scouting out the current talent, as it were.
Laura
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totyle - Apr 16, 2007 7:03 pm (#50 of 257)
Funny bit in Chapter 5. When Harry finally gets into the train after his talk with Mr Weasley, he tells Ron and Hermione that he needs to talk to them in private, ie excluding Ginny. Ron then tells Ginny to go away and she walks away in a huff. Harry can hardly be bothered! Funny that in HBP, Harry is on his own without Ron and Hermione and seeks Ginny, but she then walks away from him leaving him feeling a strange twinge of annoyance!
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Re: Harry Potter Book Read Along Thread - Prisoner of Azkaban
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Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban Book Read Along (Posts 51-100)
Jenniffler - Apr 18, 2007 10:32 am (#51 of 257)
Faking or not, Lupin lies low until he is absolutely necessary.
Harry faints. This begins a another pattern of assumptions from his fellow students, lead by Draco.
Harry arrives in the "horseless" carriage. He has now entered by water, air and land. I suppose entry by fire would be too spectacular even for Harry.
Snape sends looks of loathing Lupin's way. Snape emotional? That's a sign for me to pay attention.
Hagrid gets his wish to teach. The Ministry of Magic and the school governors don't object because Hagrid was falsely accused and falsely imprisoned in Azkaban.(Gotta make some sort of reparations) Harry uncovered the truth in CoS, so Dumbledore is finally free to give Hagrid his heart's desire.
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Laura W - Apr 18, 2007 1:25 pm (#52 of 257)
"Harry arrives in the "horseless" carriage. He has now entered by water, air and land. I suppose entry by fire would be too spectacular even for Harry."
Hey, there's still another book! (wink)
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Uncle Brad - Apr 18, 2007 6:50 pm (#53 of 257)
I can see it now - Harry arriving at Hogwarts by apparating with Fawkes.
Chapter 6 Talons and tea Leaves
Time is emphasized by Ron in relation to Hermione's schedule - a heavy handed clue.
Trewlawney mentions loud bangs and smells as normal for wizards. In Book Six Harry associates loud bangs and smells as poor or unskilled wizarding.
Harry volunteers to be the first with a hippogrif, unlike being drafted or fooled into it as depicted in the movies. Harry wants Hagrid to succeed.
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Tom Marvolo Riddleton - Apr 19, 2007 10:45 am (#54 of 257)
Well, it wasn't for the beginning of the term, but Harry did end up back at Hogwarts using Floo Powder after Winter Break.
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Steve Newton - Apr 19, 2007 11:26 am (#55 of 257)
Chapter 6-Talons and Tea Leaves
Why did Arthur go to Azkaban?
Hermione has 3 classes at 9:00. She walks out of Divination and drops Muggle Studies at the end of the year. I think that we will hear more of arithmancy.
Don't polecats smell really bad?
Hermione is not good with directions. She will make a similar mistake at St. Mungos (right before they see Lockhart I think). Her only other weakness seems to be a dislike of flying.
I love Sir Cadogan.
As far as I can tell a pouf is a cushiony ottomanlike piece of furniture.
I think that something terrible will happen to Lavender on October 16 in DH.
Predicting that Neville will break a cup doesn't show any great predicting ability.
Will Ron suffer but be very happy?
Harry, Dean and Lavender don't know what a Grim is.
Hagrid wears a moleskin coat. This changes in later books.
Hagrid emphasizes politeness when dealing with hippogriffs.
Buckbeak has orange eyes. I can't think of another character who does.
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Steve Newton - Apr 22, 2007 5:34 pm (#56 of 257)
Chapter 7-The Boggart in the Cupboard
Trevor is shrunk to a tadpole. Maybe he really is a toad. (Do toads come from tadpoles?)
Peeves calls Lupin, Loony. The same nickname as Luna.
Does Peeves remember Lupin from Marauder days?
Gee, a boggart in a grandfather clock. Could this be at 12 Grimmauld Place where we have seen both?
Harry has a quick grip of the tactical situation.
Boggarts-Snape-Neville, Mummy-Parvati, Banshee-Seamus, rat-?, rattlesnake-?, eyeball-?, severed hand-Dean (good at drawing), spider-Ron, Orb-Lupin.
I think they did Ron better in the movie. Roller skates are funny, no legs aren't.
Why didn't Lupin let Hermione take on the boggart?
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Steve Newton - Apr 23, 2007 7:27 am (#57 of 257)
I just did a quick check and Mrs. Brisbee hasn't posted since March 31. Has anyone heard anything?
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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 25, 2007 6:35 am (#58 of 257)
Hi, Steve. My motherboard fried. I've just got my new computer online. I'm sorry to have missed so much of the Read Along, but will now endeavor to catch up!
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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 25, 2007 8:49 am (#59 of 257)
Some great discussions on earlier chapters. Sorry I missed , but in the interest of expedience I'll pick up with chapter 6, "Talons and Tea Leaves".
Time is emphasized by Ron in relation to Hermione's schedule - a heavy handed clue. -- Uncle Brad
Ron says: "There isn't enough time." A big clue indeed! I couldn't figure out how Hermione was making all her classes the first time I read the book. I thought maybe she had some means to split herself, and then get back together after classes. Never did I imagine time travel! I suppose Rowling was interested in time travel for metaphorical reasons, because this book has so much to do with the past and future and how they are percieved. Trelawney says that most wizards cannot see "the veiled mysteries of the future".
Hermione is not good with directions. She will make a similar mistake at St. Mungos (right before they see Lockhart I think). Her only other weakness seems to be a dislike of flying.-- Steve Newton
Hermione is a great character, and it is good to see she isn't good at everything. She's also not good at Divination, and she gets annoyed when Ron points this out.
Hagrid emphasizes politeness when dealing with hippogriffs.
Good catch. Courtesy was a big theme in HBP, and here it is in an earlier book too.
In other notes:
Dogs are getting a lot of mentions. Sir Cadagon uses "dogs" as an insult. Draco Malfoy complains that Hogwarts "is going to the dogs." Then there is all the fuss about the Grim. Fang the boarhound comforts Hagrid. Hagrid shakes his wet hair "like a dog". Dogs run the gamut from loyal and familial to dangerous and decrepit.
After Trewlawney predicts Harry's death, the down-to-earth McGonagall makes him feel better: "You look in excellent health to me, Potter, so you will excuse me if I don't let you off homework today. I assure you that if you die you need not hand it in". LOL. Later Harry ignores the Grim warnings to help Hagrid out with Buckbeak. You just can't live if you let death omens rule your actions.
McGonagall tells the class about Animagi. Another clue.
Edit: just a comment on chapter 5.
Snape sends looks of loathing Lupin's way. Snape emotional? That's a sign for me to pay attention.-- Jennifler
What interests me about this is that Harry says that the look of loathing is one Snape usually reserves for Harry. That's a strong emotion for a teacher to slap a student with. It's a lot more than anoyance or dislike.
I'm off to read chapter 7!
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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 26, 2007 7:29 am (#60 of 257)
Ch 7, "The Boggart in the Wardrobe".
Gee, a boggart in a grandfather clock. Could this be at 12 Grimmauld Place where we have seen both?-- Steve Newton
Interesting idea. Didn't the clock shoot crossbow bolts at people in OotP? I wonder though if Mama and Papa Black would allow Lupin into their house. I suppose if they didn't know about him being a werewolf, and his parents were pure bloods, they would have no objection.
Harry has a quick grip of the tactical situation.
Good observation about Harry.
Boggarts-Snape-Neville, Mummy-Parvati, Banshee-Seamus, rat-?, rattlesnake-?, eyeball-?, severed hand-Dean (good at drawing), spider-Ron, Orb-Lupin.
This confirms that there are at least ten Gryffindor students. The rat chasing its tail is interesting. It feels like it should be symbolic of something.
I think they did Ron better in the movie. Roller skates are funny, no legs aren't.
Probably shouldn't comment on the films here, but the roller skates were funny.
Why didn't Lupin let Hermione take on the boggart?
It might have been simply that the Boggart landed in front of Harry before she got a turn, and that's when Lupin stepped in. He may have intended to exclude both people who answered a question just so Harry wasn't the only one who was excluded. Too bad, because we find at the end of the book that she could have used the practice. Ron was uncannily correct in his guess about Hermione's greatest fear: homework that only got nine out of ten correct.
Other notes:
During the first Potions class, Snape gives Harry that loathing look, for no particular reason.
Potions is Neville's worst subject, and he fears Snape.
After Snape threatens Trevor, Neville asks Hermione to help him, even though Snape has instructed her not to. Hermione chooses to help Neville anyway, thus defying the direct orders of a teacher. Only the day before, Hermione argued with another teacher, Trelawney. Hermione no longer blindly follows whatever her teachers say. This will not be the last time in this book she will defy rules to help save someone's pet!
Lupin stops Peeves from annoying Filch (by gumming up the lock to the broom cupboard).
"Waddiwassi"? I've heard it's supposed to be based on French, but usually the spell names are easier to decipher. This spell name I still don't get.
When the DADA class gets to the staff room, Snape takes the opportunity to put down Neville. I like how Lupin handled it. Whatever Lupin's faults are, he is an excellent teacher.
We are introduced to the idea of opposing emotions in magic. Fight fear with laughter. Later we find that happiness counters hopelessness, and love opposes hate. The theme extends beyond magic, with Dumbledore in GoF saying that Voldemort's discord can be countered with friendship and unity; and beyond that are the ongoing themes of loyalty and betrayal, and suspicion and trust. Rowling seems to really like opposites.
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Luna Logic - Apr 27, 2007 1:53 am (#61 of 257)
Edited by Apr 27, 2007 1:57 am
Mrs Brisbee: "Waddiwassi"? I've heard it's supposed to be based on French, but usually the spell names are easier to decipher. This spell name I still don't get.
I allow myself to question the orthography of this spell, because of the possible French pronunciation: I have in my Bloomsbury book "Waddiwasi" (p. 144). Is it the same in the US version? In French the translation was ... "waddiwasi...
In French "wasi" could be heard as Vas-y which means: Go to it ! ((but wa is "oua" and "va" is "va" ! - we should hear "vouasy", no sense then)
In French "wassi" could be heard as Voici (hear, vouacy), which means "Here" .
Both could be an indication of direction for the wad of chewing gum...
"Waddi" does not have any sense... Perhaps is it there only for the rhyme with "Wasi"?
(In English Wasi could be heard as Was he... Who has he... no many sense there)
Edited: Sorry for this wa wa post! I had the impression of barking in writing it ! (the Grim? How does dogs bark in English ? In French they bark ouah ouah...)
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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 27, 2007 7:30 am (#62 of 257)
Thanks for the quick rundown of French possibilities. So it could be "wad (an English wad of chewing gum) y vas-y". Would that mean "wad there go to there"? Mon francais est tres mal (and I forget how to make the accent marks in html!). Though you are right that "voici" said fast sounds more like "wassi".
In English, if I say "Waddiwassi" fast it sounds like "What do I see". No sense whatsoever.
P.S. In English dogs go "ruff! ruff!" or "woof! woof!"
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journeymom - Apr 27, 2007 10:40 am (#63 of 257)
I googled waddiwa-ss-i and it corrected me, waddiwa-s-i.
Wad of gum is what I heard, too, Mrs B. If Wasi = Here! or Go here!, then in JKR language, it roughly translates as, "wad of gum, go here!" Good enough for me.
That's one of those things that would be great if JKR would clarify for us in her giant encyclopedia of the Potter Universe that I hope she writes.
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Luna Logic - Apr 27, 2007 2:20 pm (#64 of 257)
Edited by Apr 27, 2007 2:21 pm
You have already both of you greatly clarified the matter! I didn't think of "wad" (word that I just learned today in Mrs Brisbee post 60).
So could we retain for the spell "Waddiwasi" the meaning "Wad y Vas-y", which translation could be (forgetting the first "y"= "there", trying to be not TOO much obsessional...): "Wad (of gum), go here!"
("What do I see" sounded nice too... but not so effective on Peeves nostrils, perhaps )
Roof ! Ouaf! to you Journeymom and Mrs Brisbee...
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Steve Newton - Apr 29, 2007 7:17 pm (#65 of 257)
Well, I didn't fry my mother board but I have had monitor problems. Also, my son has been doing a major assignment for school when the computer has been working. Anyway, on to-
Chapter 8-Flight of the Fat Lady
Snape's anger at Lupin seems to be coupled with his treatment of Neville.
Dean's artistic ability comes up again.
No matter what Percy says or tries, he's irritating.
If Harry tells Lupin about the dog on Magnolia Crescent we get a very different book.
Lupin say Voldemort's name. One of the few who do-Harry, Lupin, Hagrid (or is that just in the movie?), Dumbledore, Sirius? I must be forgetting someone.
Lupin and Snape appear to be polite but formal with each other.
For the second book in a row we are reminded of Nick's death.
I sometimes wonder who the Fat Lady is, what is her real name and why Dumbledore thins that they "need to find her."
Peeves knows Sirius.
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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 30, 2007 5:55 am (#66 of 257)
I googled waddiwa-ss-i and it corrected me, waddiwa-s-i.-- Journeymom
Oops! You would think I could spell a word when I'm looking right the book, but for some reason I threw in that extra s, maybe to balance it out with the two d's. I wonder what that "-di-" is doing in "Waddiwasi"? Maybe just making the word flow.
I am often shocked, when reading over old posts of mine, with how many spelling mistakes I made that I didn't catch at the time.
Roof ! Ouaf! to you Journeymom and Mrs Brisbee... -- Luna Logic
LOL, Luna. Since there are already Lexicon Potties, perhaps we should start calling ourselves the Barking Lexies.
Well, I didn't fry my mother board but I have had monitor problems.-- Steve Newton
Steve! I'd started to worry that now you had gone missing. Glad you were able to post.
Snape's anger at Lupin seems to be coupled with his treatment of Neville.
Could you elaborate?
If Harry tells Lupin about the dog on Magnolia Crescent we get a very different book.
Yes, indeed, one of those pivotal moments. I found it interesting that when Harry admits something is actually bothering him, he chooses to ask about the dementor lesson. Harry is more concerned that Lupin doesn't think him capable than he is about the big black dog.
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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 30, 2007 8:00 am (#67 of 257)
Steve, nevermind about elaborating about Snape, Lupin, and Neville. I thought you were talking about Snape's treatment of Neville in general, but now I see that you were speaking specifically about the boggart incident.
My notes on Ch 8, "Flight of the Fat Lady":
Lupin turns DADA into most people's favorite subject.
Crookshanks has caught a spider, and eats it "insolently" in front of Ron-- a description that never fails to cause me to laugh out loud. In GoF, the Sphinx's riddle had spy as part of the solution to spider. So is Riddle's spy symbolized by the spider?
Ron pulls Scabbers out from under the furniture by his tail, then dangles him in front of Hermione. Is this another hanging reference? Hanging is the traditional punishment for traitors. I seem to remember Uncle Vernon, in reference to the escaped convict (Sirius Black), making a comment about hanging being the only suitable punishment for people like that.
Ron thinks there is something funny about Crookshanks, even though Hermione puts it down to normal cat-chasing-rat behavior. Ron has been very good at spotting when things are odd, like Crookshanks going after Scabbers and Hermione's impossible schedule, although Ron doesn't figure out the true outlandish explanations.
Hermione, intent on debunking Trelawney's predictions, is insensitive to Lavender's feelings.
Harry decides to trust Lupin. Harry initially lies, and says nothing is bothering him, but quickly changes his mind. Has Harry ever trusted an adult so quickly? It must be some kind of record. Harry was about to ask more about the dementors when he is interrupted by the arrival of Snape.
Harry entertains the idea that Snape would poison Lupin. Since Snape regards both Harry and Lupin with loathing, this tells us quite a bit about what Harry thinks Snape would be capable of doing to him, too. Not surprising, I suppose, since Snape had just made a big show of possibly poisoning Neville's toad in Potions class.
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journeymom - May 1, 2007 12:42 pm (#68 of 257)
I'm not sure if it's okay to discuss chapters far in advance of the discussion as posted. In other words, the current discussion is about Ch 8, and I noticed something about Ch 17 and 18 that I want to discuss. So, just to be extra careful I'll use super stealthy invisible text.
Ch 17, Cat, Rat and Dog, and Ch 18, Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot an Prongs, noticeable parallels between HBP's Lightening Struck Tower. Harry has a weakened, wandless Sirius at his mercy, he desperately wants to kill Sirius, really KILL him, to avenge his parents, but he just can't bring himself to do it.
Sirius Black said, 'Going to kill me, Harry?'"
Dumbledore says, "...you are not a killer..."
"The seconds lengthened. And still Harry stood frozen there, wand poised, Black staring up at him, Crookshanks on his chest....
And then came a new sound- Muffled footsteps were echoing up through the floor - someone was moving downstairs.
"WE'ER UP HERE!' Hermione screamed suddenly. 'WE'RE UP HERE - SIRIUS BLACK -QUICK!'
Black made a startled movement that almost dislodged Crookshanks; Harry gripped his wand convulsively - Do it now! said a voice in his head - but the footsteps were thundering up the stairs and Harry still hadn't done it.
The door of the room burst open in a shower of red sparks and Harry wheeled around as Professor Lupin came hurtling into the room, his face bloodless, his wand raised and ready. His eyes flickered over Ron, lying on the floor, over Hermione, cowering next to the door, to Harry, standing there with his wand covering Black and then to Black himself, Crumpled and bleeding at Harry's feet.
'Expelliarmus!' Lupin shouted.
Harry's wand flew once more out of his hand; so did the two Hermione was holding. Lupin caught them all deftly..."
Like the voice in Harry's head telling him to kill Sirius, the Death Eaters urge Draco on, "'Draco, do it, or stand aside so one of us-' screeched the woman, but at that precise moment the door to the ramparts burst open once more and there stood Snape, his wand clutched in his hand as his black eyes swept the scene, from Dumbledore slumped against the wall, to the four Death Eaters, including the enraged werewolf, and Malfoy."
etc, etc, 'Severus...please...'
"Snape raised his wand and pointed it directly at Dumbledore.
'Avada Kedavra!'
A jet of green light shot from the end of Snape's wand and hit Dumbledore squarely in the chest."
In ch 18 of PoA, Sirius and Remus explain to Harry how it is that Sirius is not the bad guy everybody thought he was, and this was what really happened.
I think in DH Lupin might be instrumental in explaining to Harry what really happened with Snape the night he killed Dumbledore.
Sigh. Once again this parallel has already been made here at the Lexicon, but I'm just now putting it all together, so I appreciate your humoring me.
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Mrs Brisbee - May 1, 2007 6:32 pm (#69 of 257)
I don't think stealth writing is needed here , and although we usually go in chapter order we also take so long to get through it you should definitely ask away if it's a question you have now.
The parallels between the two scenes are fascinating, and I never noticed them before. It seems Rowling likes creating parallel situations. As I just noted in the read along, she also likes contrasts.
In both situations a young man is poised to commit murder, but hesitates. In Harry's case, Lupin runs up the stairs and disarms him. By contrast, with Draco his hesitation is interrupted by a chorus of Death Eaters who have come to urge him on. In both cases it is Snape who is the second interloper to make it up stairs. He captures Lupin and Sirius, and wants to take them to the dementors. He AKs Dumbledore. In the first situation, his actions are opposed by Harry and his friends. In the second no one on the Tower stands against Snape.
So I guess I see parallels and contrasts. Until we have DH in hand-- less than two months away now!-- I'm not sure how else to read it. It all might look different after the final book.
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Steve Newton - May 1, 2007 6:44 pm (#70 of 257)
The "voice in his head" is part of one of my pet theories. Through OOTP there are references to a 'voice' talking to Harry. I suspect that it is more than his conscience, such as here, where it is asking him to kill Sirius. This is a possible clue to a horcrux in Harry. At the very least it suggests to me that there is more than one person home. Somewhere I have a list of all references to the voice. I have yet to find any in HBP.
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Soul Search - May 2, 2007 6:59 am (#71 of 257)
Steve Newton,
The "voice" references sound interesting. Perhaps a topic starting with your list.
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Mrs Brisbee - May 2, 2007 7:14 am (#72 of 257)
Steve's old thread on the subject, "The Voice Within" (if my memory of the title serves correctly), seems to have been munched. At least, I can't find it.
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Steve Newton - May 2, 2007 7:48 am (#73 of 257)
Edited May 2, 2007 8:33 am
'Fraid so. I thought that I had copied it but can't find it anywhere. I do still have my references.
I think that my mistake was in not taking a position. I just wanted to speculate and hear speculation. Further thought leads me to think that if there is a horcrux in Harry that being exposed to the love that he feels would have changed this little bit of soul in a positive way. I even, in my weirder moments, wonder if this could be some form of redemption for Voldemort. Of course, this would me that we would need another bad guy and I'm afraid that the Snape supporters would not like that.
I'll have to check, but my memory seems to recall that the incidences of the voice do seem to grow more friendly and positive as the books go on. I once came up with a reason why they would have stopped in OOTP but it now escapes me.
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Choices - May 2, 2007 12:54 pm (#74 of 257)
I remember one time that the voice sounded like Hermione. Can't remember which book it was in though.
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Uncle Brad - May 2, 2007 7:29 pm (#75 of 257)
The voice in MY head tells me i am so far behind...
To prevent me from editing my edited edits, I will try to ignore most of the comments of the others who have already reviewed Chapters seven and eight and just give my impressions...
Chapter Seven - Malfoy is being Malfoy in potions - a real 'get' as Ron would (and did) say.
There were no practical magic lessons in Defense until their third year? I wonder why that was - one would think it was a class made for practical magic.
Lupin gained the respect of the students early by taking on Pevees, the bane of most students' extra curricular activities.
The staff room is similar to the Gryffindor common room, lots of old mismatched chairs and such.
Molly failed to learn the basic rule in dealing with a Bogart in book five - she went after it alone and not with help. Why would more experienced wizards like Mad Eye and others willing to let her try?
As was said before, the movie spider on roller skates is funnier than the legless one in the book. One thing the movie got right.
Ron is being very insightful, guessing Hermione's greatest fear (failing school).
Chapter 8
Wood seems a little demented (pun intended) when it comes to winning the Quidditch Cup. Me thinks he WOULD curse an opposing player if given the oppertunity as someone expressed in a later book.
Book bags seem to take quite a beating. Hermione's rips apart from being overloaded, Crookshanks tears up Ron's, Cedric's is damaged by Harry as a stalling tactic in book four, I also seem to remember others that faired just as well.
Ron thinks there is 'something funny' about 'that animal', but for once he gets it wrong, thinking about Crookshanks instead of Scabbers.
I agree Steve, Percy really is a prat, unable to think of anything to cheer up Harry about missing hogsmead and making him feel worse. Also, Hagrid used Voldemort's name, but very seldom and very reluctantly.
Lupin shows respect and regards Snape's abilities very professionally, even after Snape snubs him. It is a very mature reaction to his old nemisis. Maybe it is something Harry will remember one day...
Journeymom - I liked your comparison of the scene in the Shrieking Shack comparing it to the Tower in HBP. I missed it totally.
Steve - I missed the reference to where Peeves Knows Sirius, I just assumed he saw what happened and was repoting it in his own special way.
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Steve Newton - May 5, 2007 6:38 am (#76 of 257)
Brad, I just figured that Peeves seems to have recognized Sirius. I guess he could have seen a picture in the Prophet but he doesn't seem like the newspaper type of poltergeist.
Chapter 9-Grim Defeat
From Snape's and Dumbledore's conversation I guess that I should have been able to figure out that Lupin knew Black. Nope, not me.
Are there some wizards who can turn into plants? We have seen animagi and a lazyboymagus who can turn into a chair. Why not a florimagus?
Wood tells Harry to loop Cedric. Looping seems to somehow represent death.
Harry is 10 minutes late to DADA and interrupts class. I think that Snape shows surprising restraint.
Hufflepuffs wear canary yellow. In HBP Hermione attacks Ron with canaries. At some point Neville eats canary creams and turns into a canary. (Why does anyone accept food from the twins?)
Hermione uses magic to allow Harry to see clearly.
OK, Harry is in a desperate search. Fearsome enemies appear unexpectedly and he fall from a great height almost to his death. This sounds a lot like the tower scene in HBP.
100 dementors!
"It was as though freezing water were rising in his chest, cutting at his insides." A very strong image. It sounds as if it should mean something.
In the Potterverse they make tough glasses.
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journeymom - May 5, 2007 3:34 pm (#77 of 257)
"Hermione uses magic to allow Harry to see clearly. "
Ooh, good one!
Freezing water rising in his chest- is this when the dementors surround Sirius, Hermione and Harry? Yet again, Harry goes through a deathly experience that includes water.
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Steve Newton - May 5, 2007 6:34 pm (#78 of 257)
This is when the dementors appear during the Quidditch game.
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Uncle Brad - May 5, 2007 9:03 pm (#79 of 257)
My brainwaves seemd to have hit a flat line with this chapter. The only thing I noticed was that when Cedric gets mentioned, he is described as '...new Captain and Seeker, Cedric Diggory---'. He seems to have been made both captain and seeker all in one year yet he is also described as an excellent seeker.
I thought for a while that J. K. R. had made an error in Cedric's age , identifying him as a fifth year student until I remembered that Alicia had also been elegible for the Tri-Wizard Tournement when she was in her sixth year.
The only thing I noted with the canary yellow Hufflepuf uniforms was that thay would be easier to spot in the driving rain than the red Gryffindor robes. Advantage Hufflepuff.
From Steve's observations...Why does anyone accept ANYTHING from the twins?
Maybe Hermione's impervious spell helped the glasses hold together. (It's a shame she didn't use it on the Nimbus 2000).
While there were 100 Dementors at the game but they would have not just concentrated on Harry alone, having all the hundreds of students' emotions to feast on. Even so, Dumbledore seemed to be able to scare them off when he 'shot silver stuff at them...', not even conjuring a full fledged patronus. Impressive.
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Mrs Brisbee - May 6, 2007 4:55 am (#80 of 257)
Interesting observations about the Dementors and water. I vaguely remember something about the Hero's Journey and crossing water being a significant transition. I think I read it in one of Joseph Campbell's books. In this case Harry can't make it across, but "drowns".
I liked Uncle Brad's observation that red isn't easily seen in the storm. In dark and wet it would probably look dark grey.
Wood is a great minor character, I've always found him hilarious. Now though he has a really good point. Fred and George are judging Hufflepuff by what happened in the past. The manic Wood reminds them that things have changed. Assumptions that what happened in the past will always be that way are incorrect.
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Luna Logic - May 7, 2007 7:18 am (#81 of 257)
Journeymom : Freezing water rising in his chest- is this when the dementors surround Sirius, Hermione and Harry? Yet again, Harry goes through a deathly experience that includes water.
I'm puzzled by this ! "includes water" : Are you thinking of previous experiences? or experiences yet to come?
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journeymom - May 7, 2007 9:30 am (#82 of 257)
Luna Logic, Harry is surrounded by water when he's in the Chamber of Secrets with Riddle and the basilisk.
In PoA Harry is nearly overcome by dementors while beside the lake.
In GoF Harry's deathly water experience is not at the end of the story but during the second challenge of the tournament. In the lake scene Harry drags Ron and Gabrielle to the surface of the lake while his flippers and gills disappear. "Water was flooding through his mouth into his lungs...Harry kicked his legs so hard and fast it felt as though his muscles were screaming protest, his brain brain felt water logged, he couldn't breathe, he needed oxygen, he had to keep going, he could not stop-" But the only water at the cemetery during the big confrontation with LV is in LV's cauldron.
OotP, Harry and friends enter the cross roads room in the DoM that's lined with flickering blue torches. It's described as looking like water, I think. From there Harry proceeds to the room with the arch and the veil that leads to Sirius's death.
And, of course, in HBP Harry and Dumbledore encounter a cave full water and deathly inferi. Dumbledore nearly dies.
I didn't make this observation by myself, somebody else here did, a couple of months ago.
Though I'm not sure if there's a component of water in PS. Maybe the various chambers HRH go through to reach Quirrell and LV are under the Hogwarts lake? I suppose there's Snape's potion puzzle.
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Mrs Brisbee - May 7, 2007 11:09 am (#83 of 257)
There was a brief discussion of the meaning of water crossing here in the PS/SS Read Along. Steve Newton actually made the comment that started the discussion several posts earlier than that, but the conversation turned to stone walls. The water crossing discussion goes from posts #83-#91. I'm sure I've seen it discussed elsewhere, too, but I just don't remember where.
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journeymom - May 7, 2007 11:21 am (#84 of 257)
Aha! That's it! In PS Harry and the Dursleys go out to the shack on the island in the ocean, and there Harry learns that he's a wizard. Harry gains knowledge that changes his life.
He and the rest of the firsties cross the Hogwarts lake and Harry begins his magical education and his Hero's Journey. So he doesn't have a watery deathly experience in PS, but both watery experiences are vitally important.
Thanks, Mrs B!
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Steve Newton - May 7, 2007 11:41 am (#85 of 257)
I'm probably jumping to fast but-
Chapter 10-The Marauder's Map
Being in a class with Hermione would be really irritating.
All of those clues about Lupin, the essay, sick, and the planting of the Whomping Willow. I missed them all. I suspect that that is how DH will play out.
We have heard of several Gudgeon's.
The Marauder's Map-Found in a drawer marked "Confiscated and Dangerous," operates to "I solemnly swear that I am up to no good," Peter helped create it, Harry remembers Arthur's "Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where it keeps its brain." "Then, quite suddenly, as though following an order, he rolled up the map, stuffed it inside his robes, and hurried to the door of the classroom." (My bolding.)
I am suspicious of the caved in path. Why doesn't it appear blocked on the map? Maybe the block is too far away. Maybe not.
Why didn't the twins give the map to Ron or Ginny?
Hermione thinks quick with the spell on the Christmas tree.
More evidence of Hagrid's outstanding secret keeping inability.
Evidence suggests that Snape was Dumbledore's spy. There were others. Who?
The Fidelius Charm has its own thread. I still don't understand how it works, exactly.
Hagrid's memories of Godric's Hollow are probably a major clue. Again, I miss the subtleties.
Taking Harry to the Dursley's appear to have been preplanned since Dumbledore seems not to have been to Godric's Hollow yet.
Fudge seems to accept that Voldemort is still around. This attitude will change in later books.
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Mrs Brisbee - May 8, 2007 6:35 am (#86 of 257)
He and the rest of the firsties cross the Hogwarts lake and Harry begins his magical education and his Hero's Journey. So he doesn't have a watery deathly experience in PS, but both watery experiences are vitally important.-- Journeymom
I think your likening Harry's experience with the dementors to a water-crossing journey is brilliant. Those other journeys point to a significant transformation. In the case with the dementors, though, our Hero is stuck and can't make it across. Once he figures out how to do it, he will have reached a new and important place.
I'm probably jumping to fast but--- Steve Newton
No, you are right, we should probably pick up the pace, since we want to finish before the Deathly Hallows release!
All of those clues about Lupin, the essay, sick, and the planting of the Whomping Willow. I missed them all.
I confess that it took me longer than it should have. The first thing I thought of when I saw Lupin's name was, "Hey, that means 'wolf'!" You'd think it would be a snap after that, but no. It wasn't until Hermione's essay that I got it. I don't think I applied much brain power to PoA the first time I read it, because I was reading for pleasure and wasn't expecting such a well crafted mystery story. Probably a good thing I didn't try to figure it out, because those Time Turners surely would have made my head explode!
The Marauder's Map-Found in a drawer marked "Confiscated and Dangerous," operates to "I solemnly swear that I am up to no good," Peter helped create it, Harry remembers Arthur's "Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where it keeps its brain." "Then, quite suddenly, as though following an order, he rolled up the map, stuffed it inside his robes, and hurried to the door of the classroom." (My bolding.)
Do you think it was some enchantment on the map?
The map shows itself to be more than a map. It gives Harry instructions on how to leave the school via the secret tunnel.
I am suspicious of the caved in path. Why doesn't it appear blocked on the map? Maybe the block is too far away. Maybe not.
Fred and George never say where the tunnel came out, do they? It would have been usable during PS/SS, when Quirrellmort was at the school, and for half of the year when Diary Tom was there. But I can't think of a significant event that happened during the CoS winter that could have caused a cavein. What else is up on the fourth floor, anyway?
Why didn't the twins give the map to Ron or Ginny?
Fred and George have always been very protective of Harry, like surrogate big brothers. I don't think they see Ron as having as much need as Harry. They say themselves that they think Harry needs this more than they do, which is saying a lot. And I think they would see Ginny as having had enough bad experiences with secret tunnels that they wouldn't even consider giving her the map.
Evidence suggests that Snape was Dumbledore's spy. There were others. Who?
I've wondered, too. I can't think of any good candidates.
The Fidelius Charm has its own thread. I still don't understand how it works, exactly.
Me, either.
Some other notes on Ch 10, "The Marauder's map":
Harry finds himself with no one to confide in about the Grim; he fears Ron will panic and Hermione scoff.
The dots on the Marauder's Map are labeled with writing described as "minuscule". This probably explains why Fred and George never noticed anything odd when looking at the map, like Peter Pettigrew. They were probably always more interested in secret passages than spying in dorm rooms.
The secret passage Harry takes comes out in the Honeydukes cellar. Now, you can't tell me that the owners of Honeydukes don't know it's there, or that they even mind-- a few sales between Hogsmeade weekends are a good thing!
Betrayal is counted as worse than murder.
Sirius Black and James Potter are described as "ringleaders of their little gang", "exceptionally bright", and "troublemakers".
McGonagall remembers Dumbledore offering to be the Potters' Secret Keeper, so she must have been in the original Order.
Pettigrew appears to have been a lot more intelligent and talented than he gets credit for.
Sirius Black wasn't insane like most of the other prisoners. He missed doing the crossword?
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Steve Newton - May 8, 2007 8:11 am (#87 of 257)
"I don't think I applied much brain power to PoA the first time I read it, because I was reading for pleasure and wasn't expecting such a well crafted mystery story."
I didn't figure Lupin out until, well, when he turned into a werewolf. But, this is the main reason. I had read the first 2 books and thought that they were fun. This is the one that hooked me and convinced me that it was an intelligently written series. Not that I haven't fallen for just about every twist that JKR has thrown at us. There is probably some dirty low down trick that JKR hasn't pulled on us but I can't think of what it might be.
The map, yes, I think that there is an as yet undiscovered spell on the map. It could well be inimical but I could also see Sirius putting a spell on it to make people do weird things. But, I am not going to underestimate sneaky little Peter.
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Mrs Brisbee - May 8, 2007 9:02 am (#88 of 257)
I had read the first 2 books and thought that they were fun. This is the one that hooked me and convinced me that it was an intelligently written series.
That's exactly it for me, too. The first two were really fun, but definitely kid's books. I thought that CoS followed the structure of PS/SS too closely, only instead of Quirrellmort we had Voldy Lite. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed CoS, but PoA took a surprising turn into something completely and wonderfully different, and proved Rowling to be a versatile and brilliant writer.
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journeymom - May 8, 2007 10:03 am (#89 of 257)
All of those clues about Lupin, the essay, sick, and the planting of the Whomping Willow. I missed them all.
I confess that it took me longer than it should have. The first thing I thought of when I saw Lupin's name was, "Hey, that means 'wolf'!" You'd think it would be a snap after that, but no. It wasn't until Hermione's essay that I got it. I don't think I applied much brain power to PoA the first time I read it, because I was reading for pleasure and wasn't expecting such a well crafted mystery story. Probably a good thing I didn't try to figure it out, because those Time Turners surely would have made my head explode!
Exactly, agreed on all counts! And I didn't start looking for patterns, macro and micro, until I came here. For example, I noticed a comparison between Dudley and James Potter all by myself, but didn't know what to make of it, so dropped it.
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Mrs Brisbee - May 8, 2007 10:25 am (#90 of 257)
Well, presumably James grew up into a reasonable facsimile of a human being. Maybe the similarities mean that there is still hope for Dudley, but it depends on what he chooses to do. I think we will have to wait for DH to see how far the parallel will play out.
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PatPat - May 8, 2007 12:14 pm (#91 of 257)
I'm with you all on the fact that it was PoA that really got me hooked on the series. I felt it waS really the beginning of the series in that it introduced us to so many things that become important later, the Marauder's map, Lupin, Sirius, the dementors, what happened the night James and Lily died, and on and on.
I also have a question. I know I'm a little ahead in the Read Along, but in chapter 17, Lupin says he saw the trio on the map. Why did he not see the other Harry and Hermione that had come back in time?
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Mrs Brisbee - May 8, 2007 7:12 pm (#92 of 257)
I think there are two several that Lupin wouldn't notice the time travelling Harry and Hermione. The map is big, covering all of the castle and grounds. Once Lupin had located one set of Harry and his friends, he would be keeping his eye on them, and wouldn't be looking for duplicate sets of Harry or his friends. Remember that the ink dots are tiny and the names are in minuscule writing, so they won't be very noticeable. Also, we need to remember that the Forbidden Forest is not part of the grounds, so the Marauder's Map doesn't "see" into it. The time travelling Harry and Hermione were hiding at the edge of the forest, so their dots would not show up on the Map while Lupin was watching the trio at Hagrid's.
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Steve Newton - May 10, 2007 1:53 pm (#93 of 257)
ARRRRRRG! I had this posted and it mysteriously disappeared.
Chapter 11-The Firebolt
Is lightning a Firebolt?
In Harry's thoughts Peter resembles Neville.
Hagrid's news about Buckbeak steals Harry's thunder.
Scabbers seems to miss the holidays.
"Tripe Sybill." So starts the funniest meal in literature. McGonagall displays outstanding, and biting, wit. "But surely you already knew that, Sibyll." "That explains a great deal." "Imagine that."
Why does Lupin fear the crystal ball? Or is it Sibyll?
Sir Cadogan keeps good company, several previous headmasters. Was he someone important?
It turns out that Hermione is right about the Firebolt. What a know it all.
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journeymom - May 10, 2007 2:49 pm (#94 of 257)
In Harry's thoughts Peter resembles Neville. But wasn't that before he learned who the real Peter Pettigrew is?
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Steve Newton - May 10, 2007 4:25 pm (#95 of 257)
It sure was.
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Nathan Zimmermann - May 10, 2007 7:17 pm (#96 of 257)
Perhaps, Cadogan was himself a previous headmaster or important teacher at Hogwarts?
Steve, your comment about Hagrid's news stealing Harry's thunder reminded me of a mythological connection between Scabbers/Pettigrew and Hades. When Zeus and his brothers overthrew their father Coronus, Hades using his helm that made him invisible stole his father's weapons.
In the same way Pettigrew like Hades is in a sense invisible to the naked eye because, he is believed to be dead.
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Steve Newton - May 10, 2007 7:26 pm (#97 of 257)
We haven't seen him in a painting in the Headmaster's office so I don't think that he was a headmaster. A teacher? Could be.
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mona amon - May 10, 2007 8:38 pm (#98 of 257)
Is lightning a Firebolt?
Steve, I don't think so. Only 'thunderbolt'.
"Tripe Sybill." So starts the funniest meal in literature.
A nice way of putting it. I agree!
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journeymom - May 10, 2007 10:40 pm (#99 of 257)
Sir Cadogan runs around with a sword and a suit of armor. What era does he appear to be from? Could he be from the time of the Founders? Or have we seen all we're going to see of him?
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Steve Newton - May 11, 2007 4:15 am (#100 of 257)
When did people first where full plate mail? I'll have to check but I would guess that it wasn't until the 1300s or so. I'll try to remember to check.
Jenniffler - Apr 18, 2007 10:32 am (#51 of 257)
Faking or not, Lupin lies low until he is absolutely necessary.
Harry faints. This begins a another pattern of assumptions from his fellow students, lead by Draco.
Harry arrives in the "horseless" carriage. He has now entered by water, air and land. I suppose entry by fire would be too spectacular even for Harry.
Snape sends looks of loathing Lupin's way. Snape emotional? That's a sign for me to pay attention.
Hagrid gets his wish to teach. The Ministry of Magic and the school governors don't object because Hagrid was falsely accused and falsely imprisoned in Azkaban.(Gotta make some sort of reparations) Harry uncovered the truth in CoS, so Dumbledore is finally free to give Hagrid his heart's desire.
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Laura W - Apr 18, 2007 1:25 pm (#52 of 257)
"Harry arrives in the "horseless" carriage. He has now entered by water, air and land. I suppose entry by fire would be too spectacular even for Harry."
Hey, there's still another book! (wink)
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Uncle Brad - Apr 18, 2007 6:50 pm (#53 of 257)
I can see it now - Harry arriving at Hogwarts by apparating with Fawkes.
Chapter 6 Talons and tea Leaves
Time is emphasized by Ron in relation to Hermione's schedule - a heavy handed clue.
Trewlawney mentions loud bangs and smells as normal for wizards. In Book Six Harry associates loud bangs and smells as poor or unskilled wizarding.
Harry volunteers to be the first with a hippogrif, unlike being drafted or fooled into it as depicted in the movies. Harry wants Hagrid to succeed.
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Tom Marvolo Riddleton - Apr 19, 2007 10:45 am (#54 of 257)
Well, it wasn't for the beginning of the term, but Harry did end up back at Hogwarts using Floo Powder after Winter Break.
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Steve Newton - Apr 19, 2007 11:26 am (#55 of 257)
Chapter 6-Talons and Tea Leaves
Why did Arthur go to Azkaban?
Hermione has 3 classes at 9:00. She walks out of Divination and drops Muggle Studies at the end of the year. I think that we will hear more of arithmancy.
Don't polecats smell really bad?
Hermione is not good with directions. She will make a similar mistake at St. Mungos (right before they see Lockhart I think). Her only other weakness seems to be a dislike of flying.
I love Sir Cadogan.
As far as I can tell a pouf is a cushiony ottomanlike piece of furniture.
I think that something terrible will happen to Lavender on October 16 in DH.
Predicting that Neville will break a cup doesn't show any great predicting ability.
Will Ron suffer but be very happy?
Harry, Dean and Lavender don't know what a Grim is.
Hagrid wears a moleskin coat. This changes in later books.
Hagrid emphasizes politeness when dealing with hippogriffs.
Buckbeak has orange eyes. I can't think of another character who does.
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Steve Newton - Apr 22, 2007 5:34 pm (#56 of 257)
Chapter 7-The Boggart in the Cupboard
Trevor is shrunk to a tadpole. Maybe he really is a toad. (Do toads come from tadpoles?)
Peeves calls Lupin, Loony. The same nickname as Luna.
Does Peeves remember Lupin from Marauder days?
Gee, a boggart in a grandfather clock. Could this be at 12 Grimmauld Place where we have seen both?
Harry has a quick grip of the tactical situation.
Boggarts-Snape-Neville, Mummy-Parvati, Banshee-Seamus, rat-?, rattlesnake-?, eyeball-?, severed hand-Dean (good at drawing), spider-Ron, Orb-Lupin.
I think they did Ron better in the movie. Roller skates are funny, no legs aren't.
Why didn't Lupin let Hermione take on the boggart?
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Steve Newton - Apr 23, 2007 7:27 am (#57 of 257)
I just did a quick check and Mrs. Brisbee hasn't posted since March 31. Has anyone heard anything?
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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 25, 2007 6:35 am (#58 of 257)
Hi, Steve. My motherboard fried. I've just got my new computer online. I'm sorry to have missed so much of the Read Along, but will now endeavor to catch up!
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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 25, 2007 8:49 am (#59 of 257)
Some great discussions on earlier chapters. Sorry I missed , but in the interest of expedience I'll pick up with chapter 6, "Talons and Tea Leaves".
Time is emphasized by Ron in relation to Hermione's schedule - a heavy handed clue. -- Uncle Brad
Ron says: "There isn't enough time." A big clue indeed! I couldn't figure out how Hermione was making all her classes the first time I read the book. I thought maybe she had some means to split herself, and then get back together after classes. Never did I imagine time travel! I suppose Rowling was interested in time travel for metaphorical reasons, because this book has so much to do with the past and future and how they are percieved. Trelawney says that most wizards cannot see "the veiled mysteries of the future".
Hermione is not good with directions. She will make a similar mistake at St. Mungos (right before they see Lockhart I think). Her only other weakness seems to be a dislike of flying.-- Steve Newton
Hermione is a great character, and it is good to see she isn't good at everything. She's also not good at Divination, and she gets annoyed when Ron points this out.
Hagrid emphasizes politeness when dealing with hippogriffs.
Good catch. Courtesy was a big theme in HBP, and here it is in an earlier book too.
In other notes:
Dogs are getting a lot of mentions. Sir Cadagon uses "dogs" as an insult. Draco Malfoy complains that Hogwarts "is going to the dogs." Then there is all the fuss about the Grim. Fang the boarhound comforts Hagrid. Hagrid shakes his wet hair "like a dog". Dogs run the gamut from loyal and familial to dangerous and decrepit.
After Trewlawney predicts Harry's death, the down-to-earth McGonagall makes him feel better: "You look in excellent health to me, Potter, so you will excuse me if I don't let you off homework today. I assure you that if you die you need not hand it in". LOL. Later Harry ignores the Grim warnings to help Hagrid out with Buckbeak. You just can't live if you let death omens rule your actions.
McGonagall tells the class about Animagi. Another clue.
Edit: just a comment on chapter 5.
Snape sends looks of loathing Lupin's way. Snape emotional? That's a sign for me to pay attention.-- Jennifler
What interests me about this is that Harry says that the look of loathing is one Snape usually reserves for Harry. That's a strong emotion for a teacher to slap a student with. It's a lot more than anoyance or dislike.
I'm off to read chapter 7!
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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 26, 2007 7:29 am (#60 of 257)
Ch 7, "The Boggart in the Wardrobe".
Gee, a boggart in a grandfather clock. Could this be at 12 Grimmauld Place where we have seen both?-- Steve Newton
Interesting idea. Didn't the clock shoot crossbow bolts at people in OotP? I wonder though if Mama and Papa Black would allow Lupin into their house. I suppose if they didn't know about him being a werewolf, and his parents were pure bloods, they would have no objection.
Harry has a quick grip of the tactical situation.
Good observation about Harry.
Boggarts-Snape-Neville, Mummy-Parvati, Banshee-Seamus, rat-?, rattlesnake-?, eyeball-?, severed hand-Dean (good at drawing), spider-Ron, Orb-Lupin.
This confirms that there are at least ten Gryffindor students. The rat chasing its tail is interesting. It feels like it should be symbolic of something.
I think they did Ron better in the movie. Roller skates are funny, no legs aren't.
Probably shouldn't comment on the films here, but the roller skates were funny.
Why didn't Lupin let Hermione take on the boggart?
It might have been simply that the Boggart landed in front of Harry before she got a turn, and that's when Lupin stepped in. He may have intended to exclude both people who answered a question just so Harry wasn't the only one who was excluded. Too bad, because we find at the end of the book that she could have used the practice. Ron was uncannily correct in his guess about Hermione's greatest fear: homework that only got nine out of ten correct.
Other notes:
During the first Potions class, Snape gives Harry that loathing look, for no particular reason.
Potions is Neville's worst subject, and he fears Snape.
After Snape threatens Trevor, Neville asks Hermione to help him, even though Snape has instructed her not to. Hermione chooses to help Neville anyway, thus defying the direct orders of a teacher. Only the day before, Hermione argued with another teacher, Trelawney. Hermione no longer blindly follows whatever her teachers say. This will not be the last time in this book she will defy rules to help save someone's pet!
Lupin stops Peeves from annoying Filch (by gumming up the lock to the broom cupboard).
"Waddiwassi"? I've heard it's supposed to be based on French, but usually the spell names are easier to decipher. This spell name I still don't get.
When the DADA class gets to the staff room, Snape takes the opportunity to put down Neville. I like how Lupin handled it. Whatever Lupin's faults are, he is an excellent teacher.
We are introduced to the idea of opposing emotions in magic. Fight fear with laughter. Later we find that happiness counters hopelessness, and love opposes hate. The theme extends beyond magic, with Dumbledore in GoF saying that Voldemort's discord can be countered with friendship and unity; and beyond that are the ongoing themes of loyalty and betrayal, and suspicion and trust. Rowling seems to really like opposites.
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Luna Logic - Apr 27, 2007 1:53 am (#61 of 257)
Edited by Apr 27, 2007 1:57 am
Mrs Brisbee: "Waddiwassi"? I've heard it's supposed to be based on French, but usually the spell names are easier to decipher. This spell name I still don't get.
I allow myself to question the orthography of this spell, because of the possible French pronunciation: I have in my Bloomsbury book "Waddiwasi" (p. 144). Is it the same in the US version? In French the translation was ... "waddiwasi...
In French "wasi" could be heard as Vas-y which means: Go to it ! ((but wa is "oua" and "va" is "va" ! - we should hear "vouasy", no sense then)
In French "wassi" could be heard as Voici (hear, vouacy), which means "Here" .
Both could be an indication of direction for the wad of chewing gum...
"Waddi" does not have any sense... Perhaps is it there only for the rhyme with "Wasi"?
(In English Wasi could be heard as Was he... Who has he... no many sense there)
Edited: Sorry for this wa wa post! I had the impression of barking in writing it ! (the Grim? How does dogs bark in English ? In French they bark ouah ouah...)
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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 27, 2007 7:30 am (#62 of 257)
Thanks for the quick rundown of French possibilities. So it could be "wad (an English wad of chewing gum) y vas-y". Would that mean "wad there go to there"? Mon francais est tres mal (and I forget how to make the accent marks in html!). Though you are right that "voici" said fast sounds more like "wassi".
In English, if I say "Waddiwassi" fast it sounds like "What do I see". No sense whatsoever.
P.S. In English dogs go "ruff! ruff!" or "woof! woof!"
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journeymom - Apr 27, 2007 10:40 am (#63 of 257)
I googled waddiwa-ss-i and it corrected me, waddiwa-s-i.
Wad of gum is what I heard, too, Mrs B. If Wasi = Here! or Go here!, then in JKR language, it roughly translates as, "wad of gum, go here!" Good enough for me.
That's one of those things that would be great if JKR would clarify for us in her giant encyclopedia of the Potter Universe that I hope she writes.
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Luna Logic - Apr 27, 2007 2:20 pm (#64 of 257)
Edited by Apr 27, 2007 2:21 pm
You have already both of you greatly clarified the matter! I didn't think of "wad" (word that I just learned today in Mrs Brisbee post 60).
So could we retain for the spell "Waddiwasi" the meaning "Wad y Vas-y", which translation could be (forgetting the first "y"= "there", trying to be not TOO much obsessional...): "Wad (of gum), go here!"
("What do I see" sounded nice too... but not so effective on Peeves nostrils, perhaps )
Roof ! Ouaf! to you Journeymom and Mrs Brisbee...
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Steve Newton - Apr 29, 2007 7:17 pm (#65 of 257)
Well, I didn't fry my mother board but I have had monitor problems. Also, my son has been doing a major assignment for school when the computer has been working. Anyway, on to-
Chapter 8-Flight of the Fat Lady
Snape's anger at Lupin seems to be coupled with his treatment of Neville.
Dean's artistic ability comes up again.
No matter what Percy says or tries, he's irritating.
If Harry tells Lupin about the dog on Magnolia Crescent we get a very different book.
Lupin say Voldemort's name. One of the few who do-Harry, Lupin, Hagrid (or is that just in the movie?), Dumbledore, Sirius? I must be forgetting someone.
Lupin and Snape appear to be polite but formal with each other.
For the second book in a row we are reminded of Nick's death.
I sometimes wonder who the Fat Lady is, what is her real name and why Dumbledore thins that they "need to find her."
Peeves knows Sirius.
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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 30, 2007 5:55 am (#66 of 257)
I googled waddiwa-ss-i and it corrected me, waddiwa-s-i.-- Journeymom
Oops! You would think I could spell a word when I'm looking right the book, but for some reason I threw in that extra s, maybe to balance it out with the two d's. I wonder what that "-di-" is doing in "Waddiwasi"? Maybe just making the word flow.
I am often shocked, when reading over old posts of mine, with how many spelling mistakes I made that I didn't catch at the time.
Roof ! Ouaf! to you Journeymom and Mrs Brisbee... -- Luna Logic
LOL, Luna. Since there are already Lexicon Potties, perhaps we should start calling ourselves the Barking Lexies.
Well, I didn't fry my mother board but I have had monitor problems.-- Steve Newton
Steve! I'd started to worry that now you had gone missing. Glad you were able to post.
Snape's anger at Lupin seems to be coupled with his treatment of Neville.
Could you elaborate?
If Harry tells Lupin about the dog on Magnolia Crescent we get a very different book.
Yes, indeed, one of those pivotal moments. I found it interesting that when Harry admits something is actually bothering him, he chooses to ask about the dementor lesson. Harry is more concerned that Lupin doesn't think him capable than he is about the big black dog.
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Mrs Brisbee - Apr 30, 2007 8:00 am (#67 of 257)
Steve, nevermind about elaborating about Snape, Lupin, and Neville. I thought you were talking about Snape's treatment of Neville in general, but now I see that you were speaking specifically about the boggart incident.
My notes on Ch 8, "Flight of the Fat Lady":
Lupin turns DADA into most people's favorite subject.
Crookshanks has caught a spider, and eats it "insolently" in front of Ron-- a description that never fails to cause me to laugh out loud. In GoF, the Sphinx's riddle had spy as part of the solution to spider. So is Riddle's spy symbolized by the spider?
Ron pulls Scabbers out from under the furniture by his tail, then dangles him in front of Hermione. Is this another hanging reference? Hanging is the traditional punishment for traitors. I seem to remember Uncle Vernon, in reference to the escaped convict (Sirius Black), making a comment about hanging being the only suitable punishment for people like that.
Ron thinks there is something funny about Crookshanks, even though Hermione puts it down to normal cat-chasing-rat behavior. Ron has been very good at spotting when things are odd, like Crookshanks going after Scabbers and Hermione's impossible schedule, although Ron doesn't figure out the true outlandish explanations.
Hermione, intent on debunking Trelawney's predictions, is insensitive to Lavender's feelings.
Harry decides to trust Lupin. Harry initially lies, and says nothing is bothering him, but quickly changes his mind. Has Harry ever trusted an adult so quickly? It must be some kind of record. Harry was about to ask more about the dementors when he is interrupted by the arrival of Snape.
Harry entertains the idea that Snape would poison Lupin. Since Snape regards both Harry and Lupin with loathing, this tells us quite a bit about what Harry thinks Snape would be capable of doing to him, too. Not surprising, I suppose, since Snape had just made a big show of possibly poisoning Neville's toad in Potions class.
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journeymom - May 1, 2007 12:42 pm (#68 of 257)
I'm not sure if it's okay to discuss chapters far in advance of the discussion as posted. In other words, the current discussion is about Ch 8, and I noticed something about Ch 17 and 18 that I want to discuss. So, just to be extra careful I'll use super stealthy invisible text.
Ch 17, Cat, Rat and Dog, and Ch 18, Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot an Prongs, noticeable parallels between HBP's Lightening Struck Tower. Harry has a weakened, wandless Sirius at his mercy, he desperately wants to kill Sirius, really KILL him, to avenge his parents, but he just can't bring himself to do it.
Sirius Black said, 'Going to kill me, Harry?'"
Dumbledore says, "...you are not a killer..."
"The seconds lengthened. And still Harry stood frozen there, wand poised, Black staring up at him, Crookshanks on his chest....
And then came a new sound- Muffled footsteps were echoing up through the floor - someone was moving downstairs.
"WE'ER UP HERE!' Hermione screamed suddenly. 'WE'RE UP HERE - SIRIUS BLACK -QUICK!'
Black made a startled movement that almost dislodged Crookshanks; Harry gripped his wand convulsively - Do it now! said a voice in his head - but the footsteps were thundering up the stairs and Harry still hadn't done it.
The door of the room burst open in a shower of red sparks and Harry wheeled around as Professor Lupin came hurtling into the room, his face bloodless, his wand raised and ready. His eyes flickered over Ron, lying on the floor, over Hermione, cowering next to the door, to Harry, standing there with his wand covering Black and then to Black himself, Crumpled and bleeding at Harry's feet.
'Expelliarmus!' Lupin shouted.
Harry's wand flew once more out of his hand; so did the two Hermione was holding. Lupin caught them all deftly..."
Like the voice in Harry's head telling him to kill Sirius, the Death Eaters urge Draco on, "'Draco, do it, or stand aside so one of us-' screeched the woman, but at that precise moment the door to the ramparts burst open once more and there stood Snape, his wand clutched in his hand as his black eyes swept the scene, from Dumbledore slumped against the wall, to the four Death Eaters, including the enraged werewolf, and Malfoy."
etc, etc, 'Severus...please...'
"Snape raised his wand and pointed it directly at Dumbledore.
'Avada Kedavra!'
A jet of green light shot from the end of Snape's wand and hit Dumbledore squarely in the chest."
In ch 18 of PoA, Sirius and Remus explain to Harry how it is that Sirius is not the bad guy everybody thought he was, and this was what really happened.
I think in DH Lupin might be instrumental in explaining to Harry what really happened with Snape the night he killed Dumbledore.
Sigh. Once again this parallel has already been made here at the Lexicon, but I'm just now putting it all together, so I appreciate your humoring me.
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Mrs Brisbee - May 1, 2007 6:32 pm (#69 of 257)
I don't think stealth writing is needed here , and although we usually go in chapter order we also take so long to get through it you should definitely ask away if it's a question you have now.
The parallels between the two scenes are fascinating, and I never noticed them before. It seems Rowling likes creating parallel situations. As I just noted in the read along, she also likes contrasts.
In both situations a young man is poised to commit murder, but hesitates. In Harry's case, Lupin runs up the stairs and disarms him. By contrast, with Draco his hesitation is interrupted by a chorus of Death Eaters who have come to urge him on. In both cases it is Snape who is the second interloper to make it up stairs. He captures Lupin and Sirius, and wants to take them to the dementors. He AKs Dumbledore. In the first situation, his actions are opposed by Harry and his friends. In the second no one on the Tower stands against Snape.
So I guess I see parallels and contrasts. Until we have DH in hand-- less than two months away now!-- I'm not sure how else to read it. It all might look different after the final book.
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Steve Newton - May 1, 2007 6:44 pm (#70 of 257)
The "voice in his head" is part of one of my pet theories. Through OOTP there are references to a 'voice' talking to Harry. I suspect that it is more than his conscience, such as here, where it is asking him to kill Sirius. This is a possible clue to a horcrux in Harry. At the very least it suggests to me that there is more than one person home. Somewhere I have a list of all references to the voice. I have yet to find any in HBP.
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Soul Search - May 2, 2007 6:59 am (#71 of 257)
Steve Newton,
The "voice" references sound interesting. Perhaps a topic starting with your list.
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Mrs Brisbee - May 2, 2007 7:14 am (#72 of 257)
Steve's old thread on the subject, "The Voice Within" (if my memory of the title serves correctly), seems to have been munched. At least, I can't find it.
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Steve Newton - May 2, 2007 7:48 am (#73 of 257)
Edited May 2, 2007 8:33 am
'Fraid so. I thought that I had copied it but can't find it anywhere. I do still have my references.
I think that my mistake was in not taking a position. I just wanted to speculate and hear speculation. Further thought leads me to think that if there is a horcrux in Harry that being exposed to the love that he feels would have changed this little bit of soul in a positive way. I even, in my weirder moments, wonder if this could be some form of redemption for Voldemort. Of course, this would me that we would need another bad guy and I'm afraid that the Snape supporters would not like that.
I'll have to check, but my memory seems to recall that the incidences of the voice do seem to grow more friendly and positive as the books go on. I once came up with a reason why they would have stopped in OOTP but it now escapes me.
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Choices - May 2, 2007 12:54 pm (#74 of 257)
I remember one time that the voice sounded like Hermione. Can't remember which book it was in though.
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Uncle Brad - May 2, 2007 7:29 pm (#75 of 257)
The voice in MY head tells me i am so far behind...
To prevent me from editing my edited edits, I will try to ignore most of the comments of the others who have already reviewed Chapters seven and eight and just give my impressions...
Chapter Seven - Malfoy is being Malfoy in potions - a real 'get' as Ron would (and did) say.
There were no practical magic lessons in Defense until their third year? I wonder why that was - one would think it was a class made for practical magic.
Lupin gained the respect of the students early by taking on Pevees, the bane of most students' extra curricular activities.
The staff room is similar to the Gryffindor common room, lots of old mismatched chairs and such.
Molly failed to learn the basic rule in dealing with a Bogart in book five - she went after it alone and not with help. Why would more experienced wizards like Mad Eye and others willing to let her try?
As was said before, the movie spider on roller skates is funnier than the legless one in the book. One thing the movie got right.
Ron is being very insightful, guessing Hermione's greatest fear (failing school).
Chapter 8
Wood seems a little demented (pun intended) when it comes to winning the Quidditch Cup. Me thinks he WOULD curse an opposing player if given the oppertunity as someone expressed in a later book.
Book bags seem to take quite a beating. Hermione's rips apart from being overloaded, Crookshanks tears up Ron's, Cedric's is damaged by Harry as a stalling tactic in book four, I also seem to remember others that faired just as well.
Ron thinks there is 'something funny' about 'that animal', but for once he gets it wrong, thinking about Crookshanks instead of Scabbers.
I agree Steve, Percy really is a prat, unable to think of anything to cheer up Harry about missing hogsmead and making him feel worse. Also, Hagrid used Voldemort's name, but very seldom and very reluctantly.
Lupin shows respect and regards Snape's abilities very professionally, even after Snape snubs him. It is a very mature reaction to his old nemisis. Maybe it is something Harry will remember one day...
Journeymom - I liked your comparison of the scene in the Shrieking Shack comparing it to the Tower in HBP. I missed it totally.
Steve - I missed the reference to where Peeves Knows Sirius, I just assumed he saw what happened and was repoting it in his own special way.
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Steve Newton - May 5, 2007 6:38 am (#76 of 257)
Brad, I just figured that Peeves seems to have recognized Sirius. I guess he could have seen a picture in the Prophet but he doesn't seem like the newspaper type of poltergeist.
Chapter 9-Grim Defeat
From Snape's and Dumbledore's conversation I guess that I should have been able to figure out that Lupin knew Black. Nope, not me.
Are there some wizards who can turn into plants? We have seen animagi and a lazyboymagus who can turn into a chair. Why not a florimagus?
Wood tells Harry to loop Cedric. Looping seems to somehow represent death.
Harry is 10 minutes late to DADA and interrupts class. I think that Snape shows surprising restraint.
Hufflepuffs wear canary yellow. In HBP Hermione attacks Ron with canaries. At some point Neville eats canary creams and turns into a canary. (Why does anyone accept food from the twins?)
Hermione uses magic to allow Harry to see clearly.
OK, Harry is in a desperate search. Fearsome enemies appear unexpectedly and he fall from a great height almost to his death. This sounds a lot like the tower scene in HBP.
100 dementors!
"It was as though freezing water were rising in his chest, cutting at his insides." A very strong image. It sounds as if it should mean something.
In the Potterverse they make tough glasses.
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journeymom - May 5, 2007 3:34 pm (#77 of 257)
"Hermione uses magic to allow Harry to see clearly. "
Ooh, good one!
Freezing water rising in his chest- is this when the dementors surround Sirius, Hermione and Harry? Yet again, Harry goes through a deathly experience that includes water.
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Steve Newton - May 5, 2007 6:34 pm (#78 of 257)
This is when the dementors appear during the Quidditch game.
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Uncle Brad - May 5, 2007 9:03 pm (#79 of 257)
My brainwaves seemd to have hit a flat line with this chapter. The only thing I noticed was that when Cedric gets mentioned, he is described as '...new Captain and Seeker, Cedric Diggory---'. He seems to have been made both captain and seeker all in one year yet he is also described as an excellent seeker.
I thought for a while that J. K. R. had made an error in Cedric's age , identifying him as a fifth year student until I remembered that Alicia had also been elegible for the Tri-Wizard Tournement when she was in her sixth year.
The only thing I noted with the canary yellow Hufflepuf uniforms was that thay would be easier to spot in the driving rain than the red Gryffindor robes. Advantage Hufflepuff.
From Steve's observations...Why does anyone accept ANYTHING from the twins?
Maybe Hermione's impervious spell helped the glasses hold together. (It's a shame she didn't use it on the Nimbus 2000).
While there were 100 Dementors at the game but they would have not just concentrated on Harry alone, having all the hundreds of students' emotions to feast on. Even so, Dumbledore seemed to be able to scare them off when he 'shot silver stuff at them...', not even conjuring a full fledged patronus. Impressive.
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Mrs Brisbee - May 6, 2007 4:55 am (#80 of 257)
Interesting observations about the Dementors and water. I vaguely remember something about the Hero's Journey and crossing water being a significant transition. I think I read it in one of Joseph Campbell's books. In this case Harry can't make it across, but "drowns".
I liked Uncle Brad's observation that red isn't easily seen in the storm. In dark and wet it would probably look dark grey.
Wood is a great minor character, I've always found him hilarious. Now though he has a really good point. Fred and George are judging Hufflepuff by what happened in the past. The manic Wood reminds them that things have changed. Assumptions that what happened in the past will always be that way are incorrect.
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Luna Logic - May 7, 2007 7:18 am (#81 of 257)
Journeymom : Freezing water rising in his chest- is this when the dementors surround Sirius, Hermione and Harry? Yet again, Harry goes through a deathly experience that includes water.
I'm puzzled by this ! "includes water" : Are you thinking of previous experiences? or experiences yet to come?
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journeymom - May 7, 2007 9:30 am (#82 of 257)
Luna Logic, Harry is surrounded by water when he's in the Chamber of Secrets with Riddle and the basilisk.
In PoA Harry is nearly overcome by dementors while beside the lake.
In GoF Harry's deathly water experience is not at the end of the story but during the second challenge of the tournament. In the lake scene Harry drags Ron and Gabrielle to the surface of the lake while his flippers and gills disappear. "Water was flooding through his mouth into his lungs...Harry kicked his legs so hard and fast it felt as though his muscles were screaming protest, his brain brain felt water logged, he couldn't breathe, he needed oxygen, he had to keep going, he could not stop-" But the only water at the cemetery during the big confrontation with LV is in LV's cauldron.
OotP, Harry and friends enter the cross roads room in the DoM that's lined with flickering blue torches. It's described as looking like water, I think. From there Harry proceeds to the room with the arch and the veil that leads to Sirius's death.
And, of course, in HBP Harry and Dumbledore encounter a cave full water and deathly inferi. Dumbledore nearly dies.
I didn't make this observation by myself, somebody else here did, a couple of months ago.
Though I'm not sure if there's a component of water in PS. Maybe the various chambers HRH go through to reach Quirrell and LV are under the Hogwarts lake? I suppose there's Snape's potion puzzle.
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Mrs Brisbee - May 7, 2007 11:09 am (#83 of 257)
There was a brief discussion of the meaning of water crossing here in the PS/SS Read Along. Steve Newton actually made the comment that started the discussion several posts earlier than that, but the conversation turned to stone walls. The water crossing discussion goes from posts #83-#91. I'm sure I've seen it discussed elsewhere, too, but I just don't remember where.
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journeymom - May 7, 2007 11:21 am (#84 of 257)
Aha! That's it! In PS Harry and the Dursleys go out to the shack on the island in the ocean, and there Harry learns that he's a wizard. Harry gains knowledge that changes his life.
He and the rest of the firsties cross the Hogwarts lake and Harry begins his magical education and his Hero's Journey. So he doesn't have a watery deathly experience in PS, but both watery experiences are vitally important.
Thanks, Mrs B!
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Steve Newton - May 7, 2007 11:41 am (#85 of 257)
I'm probably jumping to fast but-
Chapter 10-The Marauder's Map
Being in a class with Hermione would be really irritating.
All of those clues about Lupin, the essay, sick, and the planting of the Whomping Willow. I missed them all. I suspect that that is how DH will play out.
We have heard of several Gudgeon's.
The Marauder's Map-Found in a drawer marked "Confiscated and Dangerous," operates to "I solemnly swear that I am up to no good," Peter helped create it, Harry remembers Arthur's "Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where it keeps its brain." "Then, quite suddenly, as though following an order, he rolled up the map, stuffed it inside his robes, and hurried to the door of the classroom." (My bolding.)
I am suspicious of the caved in path. Why doesn't it appear blocked on the map? Maybe the block is too far away. Maybe not.
Why didn't the twins give the map to Ron or Ginny?
Hermione thinks quick with the spell on the Christmas tree.
More evidence of Hagrid's outstanding secret keeping inability.
Evidence suggests that Snape was Dumbledore's spy. There were others. Who?
The Fidelius Charm has its own thread. I still don't understand how it works, exactly.
Hagrid's memories of Godric's Hollow are probably a major clue. Again, I miss the subtleties.
Taking Harry to the Dursley's appear to have been preplanned since Dumbledore seems not to have been to Godric's Hollow yet.
Fudge seems to accept that Voldemort is still around. This attitude will change in later books.
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Mrs Brisbee - May 8, 2007 6:35 am (#86 of 257)
He and the rest of the firsties cross the Hogwarts lake and Harry begins his magical education and his Hero's Journey. So he doesn't have a watery deathly experience in PS, but both watery experiences are vitally important.-- Journeymom
I think your likening Harry's experience with the dementors to a water-crossing journey is brilliant. Those other journeys point to a significant transformation. In the case with the dementors, though, our Hero is stuck and can't make it across. Once he figures out how to do it, he will have reached a new and important place.
I'm probably jumping to fast but--- Steve Newton
No, you are right, we should probably pick up the pace, since we want to finish before the Deathly Hallows release!
All of those clues about Lupin, the essay, sick, and the planting of the Whomping Willow. I missed them all.
I confess that it took me longer than it should have. The first thing I thought of when I saw Lupin's name was, "Hey, that means 'wolf'!" You'd think it would be a snap after that, but no. It wasn't until Hermione's essay that I got it. I don't think I applied much brain power to PoA the first time I read it, because I was reading for pleasure and wasn't expecting such a well crafted mystery story. Probably a good thing I didn't try to figure it out, because those Time Turners surely would have made my head explode!
The Marauder's Map-Found in a drawer marked "Confiscated and Dangerous," operates to "I solemnly swear that I am up to no good," Peter helped create it, Harry remembers Arthur's "Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where it keeps its brain." "Then, quite suddenly, as though following an order, he rolled up the map, stuffed it inside his robes, and hurried to the door of the classroom." (My bolding.)
Do you think it was some enchantment on the map?
The map shows itself to be more than a map. It gives Harry instructions on how to leave the school via the secret tunnel.
I am suspicious of the caved in path. Why doesn't it appear blocked on the map? Maybe the block is too far away. Maybe not.
Fred and George never say where the tunnel came out, do they? It would have been usable during PS/SS, when Quirrellmort was at the school, and for half of the year when Diary Tom was there. But I can't think of a significant event that happened during the CoS winter that could have caused a cavein. What else is up on the fourth floor, anyway?
Why didn't the twins give the map to Ron or Ginny?
Fred and George have always been very protective of Harry, like surrogate big brothers. I don't think they see Ron as having as much need as Harry. They say themselves that they think Harry needs this more than they do, which is saying a lot. And I think they would see Ginny as having had enough bad experiences with secret tunnels that they wouldn't even consider giving her the map.
Evidence suggests that Snape was Dumbledore's spy. There were others. Who?
I've wondered, too. I can't think of any good candidates.
The Fidelius Charm has its own thread. I still don't understand how it works, exactly.
Me, either.
Some other notes on Ch 10, "The Marauder's map":
Harry finds himself with no one to confide in about the Grim; he fears Ron will panic and Hermione scoff.
The dots on the Marauder's Map are labeled with writing described as "minuscule". This probably explains why Fred and George never noticed anything odd when looking at the map, like Peter Pettigrew. They were probably always more interested in secret passages than spying in dorm rooms.
The secret passage Harry takes comes out in the Honeydukes cellar. Now, you can't tell me that the owners of Honeydukes don't know it's there, or that they even mind-- a few sales between Hogsmeade weekends are a good thing!
Betrayal is counted as worse than murder.
Sirius Black and James Potter are described as "ringleaders of their little gang", "exceptionally bright", and "troublemakers".
McGonagall remembers Dumbledore offering to be the Potters' Secret Keeper, so she must have been in the original Order.
Pettigrew appears to have been a lot more intelligent and talented than he gets credit for.
Sirius Black wasn't insane like most of the other prisoners. He missed doing the crossword?
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Steve Newton - May 8, 2007 8:11 am (#87 of 257)
"I don't think I applied much brain power to PoA the first time I read it, because I was reading for pleasure and wasn't expecting such a well crafted mystery story."
I didn't figure Lupin out until, well, when he turned into a werewolf. But, this is the main reason. I had read the first 2 books and thought that they were fun. This is the one that hooked me and convinced me that it was an intelligently written series. Not that I haven't fallen for just about every twist that JKR has thrown at us. There is probably some dirty low down trick that JKR hasn't pulled on us but I can't think of what it might be.
The map, yes, I think that there is an as yet undiscovered spell on the map. It could well be inimical but I could also see Sirius putting a spell on it to make people do weird things. But, I am not going to underestimate sneaky little Peter.
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Mrs Brisbee - May 8, 2007 9:02 am (#88 of 257)
I had read the first 2 books and thought that they were fun. This is the one that hooked me and convinced me that it was an intelligently written series.
That's exactly it for me, too. The first two were really fun, but definitely kid's books. I thought that CoS followed the structure of PS/SS too closely, only instead of Quirrellmort we had Voldy Lite. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed CoS, but PoA took a surprising turn into something completely and wonderfully different, and proved Rowling to be a versatile and brilliant writer.
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journeymom - May 8, 2007 10:03 am (#89 of 257)
All of those clues about Lupin, the essay, sick, and the planting of the Whomping Willow. I missed them all.
I confess that it took me longer than it should have. The first thing I thought of when I saw Lupin's name was, "Hey, that means 'wolf'!" You'd think it would be a snap after that, but no. It wasn't until Hermione's essay that I got it. I don't think I applied much brain power to PoA the first time I read it, because I was reading for pleasure and wasn't expecting such a well crafted mystery story. Probably a good thing I didn't try to figure it out, because those Time Turners surely would have made my head explode!
Exactly, agreed on all counts! And I didn't start looking for patterns, macro and micro, until I came here. For example, I noticed a comparison between Dudley and James Potter all by myself, but didn't know what to make of it, so dropped it.
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Mrs Brisbee - May 8, 2007 10:25 am (#90 of 257)
Well, presumably James grew up into a reasonable facsimile of a human being. Maybe the similarities mean that there is still hope for Dudley, but it depends on what he chooses to do. I think we will have to wait for DH to see how far the parallel will play out.
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PatPat - May 8, 2007 12:14 pm (#91 of 257)
I'm with you all on the fact that it was PoA that really got me hooked on the series. I felt it waS really the beginning of the series in that it introduced us to so many things that become important later, the Marauder's map, Lupin, Sirius, the dementors, what happened the night James and Lily died, and on and on.
I also have a question. I know I'm a little ahead in the Read Along, but in chapter 17, Lupin says he saw the trio on the map. Why did he not see the other Harry and Hermione that had come back in time?
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Mrs Brisbee - May 8, 2007 7:12 pm (#92 of 257)
I think there are two several that Lupin wouldn't notice the time travelling Harry and Hermione. The map is big, covering all of the castle and grounds. Once Lupin had located one set of Harry and his friends, he would be keeping his eye on them, and wouldn't be looking for duplicate sets of Harry or his friends. Remember that the ink dots are tiny and the names are in minuscule writing, so they won't be very noticeable. Also, we need to remember that the Forbidden Forest is not part of the grounds, so the Marauder's Map doesn't "see" into it. The time travelling Harry and Hermione were hiding at the edge of the forest, so their dots would not show up on the Map while Lupin was watching the trio at Hagrid's.
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Steve Newton - May 10, 2007 1:53 pm (#93 of 257)
ARRRRRRG! I had this posted and it mysteriously disappeared.
Chapter 11-The Firebolt
Is lightning a Firebolt?
In Harry's thoughts Peter resembles Neville.
Hagrid's news about Buckbeak steals Harry's thunder.
Scabbers seems to miss the holidays.
"Tripe Sybill." So starts the funniest meal in literature. McGonagall displays outstanding, and biting, wit. "But surely you already knew that, Sibyll." "That explains a great deal." "Imagine that."
Why does Lupin fear the crystal ball? Or is it Sibyll?
Sir Cadogan keeps good company, several previous headmasters. Was he someone important?
It turns out that Hermione is right about the Firebolt. What a know it all.
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journeymom - May 10, 2007 2:49 pm (#94 of 257)
In Harry's thoughts Peter resembles Neville. But wasn't that before he learned who the real Peter Pettigrew is?
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Steve Newton - May 10, 2007 4:25 pm (#95 of 257)
It sure was.
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Nathan Zimmermann - May 10, 2007 7:17 pm (#96 of 257)
Perhaps, Cadogan was himself a previous headmaster or important teacher at Hogwarts?
Steve, your comment about Hagrid's news stealing Harry's thunder reminded me of a mythological connection between Scabbers/Pettigrew and Hades. When Zeus and his brothers overthrew their father Coronus, Hades using his helm that made him invisible stole his father's weapons.
In the same way Pettigrew like Hades is in a sense invisible to the naked eye because, he is believed to be dead.
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Steve Newton - May 10, 2007 7:26 pm (#97 of 257)
We haven't seen him in a painting in the Headmaster's office so I don't think that he was a headmaster. A teacher? Could be.
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mona amon - May 10, 2007 8:38 pm (#98 of 257)
Is lightning a Firebolt?
Steve, I don't think so. Only 'thunderbolt'.
"Tripe Sybill." So starts the funniest meal in literature.
A nice way of putting it. I agree!
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journeymom - May 10, 2007 10:40 pm (#99 of 257)
Sir Cadogan runs around with a sword and a suit of armor. What era does he appear to be from? Could he be from the time of the Founders? Or have we seen all we're going to see of him?
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Steve Newton - May 11, 2007 4:15 am (#100 of 257)
When did people first where full plate mail? I'll have to check but I would guess that it wasn't until the 1300s or so. I'll try to remember to check.
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Mrs Brisbee - May 11, 2007 6:17 am (#101 of 257)
At least it shows us that the Headmasters' portraits get around the castle. We've never seen any of the other portraits visit the Headmaster's Office.
"Firebolt" does sound like a cross between "fire" and "thunderbolt", but it's not in any of my dictionaries.
My brain seems to have jammed. I know themes of friendship, loyalty, and betrayal are being developed, but I can't form any coherent thoughts about them. Last chapter betrayal was likened worse than murder. Harry finds out that Sirius Black betrayed his best friend, Harry's father. I have to wonder if learning about Black's betrayal effects how Harry reacts to Hermione telling McGonagall about the broom. Harry does realize that she means the best, but I wonder if subconsciously he stays angry at her "betrayal". Hermione's actions remind me of Neville's in PS/SS, where he stands up to his friends, which is an act of courage. Harry and Ron let the coolness factor of the Marauder's Map and Firebolt override their good sense. They managed to talk Hermione into not saying anything about the Map, but the Broom is just too much for her.
At the beginning of the Chapter, Hermione and Ron are afraid Harry might do something stupid and go after Black. Harry is going on about what Draco Malfoy had said. Ron says: "You're going to take Malfoy's advice instead of ours?" Ron has a good point. Listen to your friends. Don't let your enemies decide how you will fight. Ron also had several other nice moments: he shows his closeness to his family when he imparts the information from his Dad about Pettigrew's mother getting his Order of Merlin and a finger in a box, and when he makes Hagrid a cup of tea because that's what his Mum does to comfort people. I think Ron will be a great family man.
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Steve Newton - May 11, 2007 8:08 am (#102 of 257)
Edited May 11, 2007 8:46 am
I looked up plate mail on Wikipedia. I know, not necessarily a reliable source, but good enough for our purposes, I think.
Anyway, plate mail seems to have come in in the late 13th century and lasted until the 16th. 1200s to the 1500s by my count. Gunpowder weapons were sort of a problem for it.
Does this make Sir Cadogan a sort of Don Quixote?
"Ron says: "You're going to take Malfoy's advice instead of ours?" Ron has a good point. Listen to your friends. Don't let your enemies decide how you will fight."
A pretty good description of the military of the initiative.
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journeymom - May 11, 2007 11:01 am (#103 of 257)
Well, if plate mail didn't come around until the late 1200's, then that wouldn't fit with the Founder's era. Hogwarts was created more than a thousand years ago. It's currently 1997 in Harry's universe (right?) so that would put the Founding of Hogwarts at sometime before the year 997 a.d. Sir Cadogan is cute, though.
Steve, I'm not sure what 'military of the initiative' means. But if you mean military strategy, I agree. And ever since I learned about the Philosohpers Stone-chess-game-as frame-work-for-final-battle theory, I've wondered if Ron will provide Harry with some strategic advise at the end.
So, "Ron says: "You're going to take Malfoy's advice instead of ours?" Ron has a good point. Listen to your friends. Don't let your enemies decide how you will fight." makes sense. Ron just needs to come into his own.
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Steve Newton - May 11, 2007 12:00 pm (#104 of 257)
Okay, I meant to say the military 'concept' of the initiative. In other words if you are doing something than the other guy has to react to you and cannot do what he wants.
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Steve Newton - May 12, 2007 5:23 am (#105 of 257)
I was thinking back to the train ride in chapter 5. By my count all of Harry's core group except Luna, Ron, Hermione, Neville, Ginny, and perhaps Lupin, were all there.
The core group went to the MOM with Harry and have all fought in at least 2 battles. (Lupin came to the MOM with another group, the OOTP.)
I think that the core group, Harry, Ron, Hermione, Neville, Ginny, Luna and maybe Lupin will drive the action in DH.
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Mrs Brisbee - May 12, 2007 7:38 am (#106 of 257)
Steve, you are saying, I think, that the people who sit with Harry on the train will always be his core group, not just for the book they ride with him? I don't know. Lupin was important again in OotP. I like the character, and hope he will have an important role again in DH. He is the last of James's and Sirius's friends.
Other people who have sat with Harry on the train are Peter Pettigrew, AKA Scabbers, in PS/SS, CoS, and PoA. And in HBP, Harry had to go to Slughorn's party-- which did get him together with Ginny on the train, and also with a bunch of other people whose names I can't remember. Harry also chose in HBP to sneak into Draco's compartment to spy, thereby finishing the train ride with his schoolboy nemesis.
Whether or not this will apply to the future story remains to be seen.
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Steve Newton - May 12, 2007 3:08 pm (#107 of 257)
"Steve, you are saying, I think, that the people who sit with Harry on the train will always be his core group"
Yep, that is what I am saying. I will have to give some thought to Peter. Technically a rat rode with Harry. Don't know. Lupin gives me problems. I think that he fits but it may be just the students who ride with Harry in his compartment. This would take care of Peter also. In HBP Harry rides in Slughorn's compartment. I think that this is different. Harry is accompanying the Slug while in the other books folks are accompanying Harry.
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Uncle Brad - May 13, 2007 6:00 pm (#108 of 257)
Playing catch-up again...
Chapter 10 - In addition to the excellent observations (that went completely over my head) I noticed that on the essay on werewolves, Lupin told the class on Monday that they did not have to do it. That was also the day Snape assigned it to be done. Hermione seemed to be the only one who finished the essay, making me wonder about the timing.
Harry was DEEP underground going to Honeydukes. 200 steps climbing a stair is like going up a 20 story building.
Chapter 11 - 'The Firebolt'
The funniest meal in litiature..., I couldn't agree more. It was a shame they didn't put it in the film, it would have been a riot. Wizarding crackers seem to have a sense of humor of their own - what with the Vulture hat for Snape... Having Trewlawney predict your death seems a sure fire way of living a long time, although one could argue that the first to rise was actually Dumbledore, when he stood to make a chair for Trewlawney, otherwise the good professor would be wrong about her prediction, and I think she would never see it that way.
Half a dozen Dung Bombs and the common room was still full and the dorm is empty?
Ron stayed for the holidays while the rest of the Weasley children went home. I wonder what Molly thought of that?
As far as the 'core group', I feel it is just Ron and Hermione. The others that have been added on over time come and go, and are not nearly as important seeming in the long run. As Steve indicated, it may just boil down to those who 'accompany Harry' rather than those who he happens to accompany on the train at whatever point.
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Mrs Brisbee - May 14, 2007 5:44 am (#109 of 257)
The funniest meal in litiature...
McGonagall was in top form. I love how she diffused the situation when Trelawney was demanding to know who was the first to rise, and therefore the first to die. This is one reason McGonagall was a favorite character of mine. The witty, acerbic McGonagall reappears in OotP when she takes on Umbridge. I hope we see her again in DH.
I think Ron and Hermione will retain their positions as Harry's core group, but with Neville, Ginny, and Luna in support.
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Steve Newton - May 14, 2007 8:00 am (#110 of 257)
Did I actually write 'litiature'? Oh, my God. Repeat as many times as necessary, "Spell check is a good thing!"
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Mrs Brisbee - May 14, 2007 8:54 am (#111 of 257)
Oops! It seems your original statement is fine, Steve. It just got mangled in the repeating. I think I'm the one who needs to use that spell check button more often.
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Steve Newton - May 15, 2007 10:45 am (#112 of 257)
Chapter 12-The Patronus
JKR has now spent 11 chapters destroying Trelawney's credibility. Its about time for her to slip us something important. I don't think that Harry's lifeline is it.
Lupin was in Filch's office checking out the filing cabinet. Looking for the map?
More Godric's Hollow hints. I can't put them together yet but still no hint of anyone besides the 3 Potters and Voldemort being there.
Harry's desire to hear his parents interferes with his patronus. Lupin also reacts to his comments.
Ernie is taking Muggle studies. Isn't he the one who claims to be able to trace his magical roots back 9 generations?
I would have liked to have seen Wood's conversation with McGonagall.
I'm hoping that a Hurling Hex throws you not...um...something else.
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Uncle Brad - May 15, 2007 8:15 pm (#113 of 257)
I agree Steve, Wood's conversation with McGonagall may have matched the Christmas dinner. But then again, he does seem demented about winning.
I never noticed the connection with Lupin looking in Filch's filing cabinet and the Marauder's map. If he was then the question would be 'why'. Would he use it to keep an eye out for Sirius?
I wonder what other classes Ernie is taking. I really wonder about Hermione's schedule and how another student would pick electives that interfere with one another like her's do. I know it was put in that way as a plot point, but anyone wanting to take Muggle Studies and Divination wouldn't be able to as they are at the same time. One other thing I noticed is it seems that the entire Gryffindor third year class is taking Divination and Care of Magical Creatures. Has no one but Hermione selected a different elective?
Lupin tells Harry 'You can exist without your soul...' Is this a hint of Voldemort's fate?
My first comment on this board was to the effect of 'three cheers for the spell checker!'
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Mrs Brisbee - May 16, 2007 3:58 am (#114 of 257)
Lupin was in Filch's office checking out the filing cabinet. Looking for the map?-- Steve Newton
I never thought of that. Maybe. The Map is a powerful and useful magic item.
Lupin tells Harry 'You can exist without your soul...' Is this a hint of Voldemort's fate?-- Uncle Brad
Rowling does seem to be giving us some general information about the nature of the soul.
Someone can exist without a soul-- the body will keep on working, at any rate, but it will be an empty shell.
Someone without a soul has no memory. I suspect that memory must be indelibly connected to the soul. We've seen magical memory modifications, but Morfin's memory in HBP indicates that even the best altered memory is recoverable. We've also seen that memory can be duplicated and put in things that have no soul, like portraits. If Tom Riddle's Diary is any indication, a bit of soul is needed to be able to use the experiences from copied memories in an adaptive way. Otherwise, it's more like a set program.
Someone without a soul has "no sense of self". Not sure what this means. That they are just not there anymore, I suppose.
The information does tell us that the soul exists as an entity in the Harry Potter world, and it is possible to remove even all of it from the body without the body dying.
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journeymom - May 16, 2007 8:49 am (#115 of 257)
Mrs B- 'no sense of self'. A common theme in Snape-centric fan fiction is the Wicker Man. Voldemort has been defeated and the MoM is rounding up Death Eaters and performing some sort of magical procedure that removes their souls. Why they don't just use dementors, I don't know; maybe the Ministry has learned its lesson and doesn't want anything to do with dementors anymore. In any case, the victim is a complete automaton, like a robot. Their self awareness has been erased.
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Jenniffler - May 16, 2007 9:01 am (#116 of 257)
Souless creatures without souls? Sounds like they need a double re-soling.
Sorry to do that a your expense, Journeymom. Giggle, snort, giggle, sigh.
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Mrs Brisbee - May 16, 2007 11:15 am (#117 of 257)
In any case, the victim is a complete automaton, like a robot. Their self awareness has been erased.-- Journeymom
That makes sense. I just wondered what someone could do with no memory either. Maybe just follow outside input, and do whatever someone else instructed: "sit," "stand," "walk forward," etc.
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Mediwitch - May 16, 2007 7:34 pm (#118 of 257)
People without memories (or with very poor ones) live all around us - ever try talking to a person with dementia or Alzheimer's? It's a LOT of repetition because they can't remember much! (My father-in-law has Alzheimer's, and he lives with us. Sometimes I feel like a broken record, but he can't remember that we had the same conversation two minutes previously.)
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Steve Newton - May 17, 2007 10:49 am (#119 of 257)
Chapter 13-Gryffindor Versus Ravenclaw
Ron and Hermione are feuding. In GOF Ron and Harry are Feuding. I can't recall an instance of Harry and Hermione not getting along except for the Firebolt incident.
A reminder of Scabbers biting Goyle and that Goyle has a scar.
Ron shows interest in playing Quidditch.
If Madam Hooch was there to protect Harry from Sirius it would suggest that she is powerful. Or very good at calling for help.
I wonder what Cho's injuries were. Probably not important.
Harry loops Katie. I am suspicious of loops.
Hooch doesn't seem to be overly attentive.
Lee gives a passing reference to the Firebolts being used by national teams. We see the Irish team using them in GOF.
I don't see any rules that Malfoy and the other Slytherin's broke. Unless they went onto the field of play. It seems the the only problem that Harry has is with his own lack of concentration on the Snitch. There were not dementors to distract him.
I wonder what Harry's happy thought was.
Patronuses seem to be useful against more than just dementors.
Lupin doesn't give a clue that he recognized the Patronus.
Another dream that I don't understand.
I don't think that many people would 'fess up as Neville did.
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Mrs Brisbee - May 18, 2007 3:58 am (#120 of 257)
I wonder what Cho's injuries were. Probably not important.--Steve Newton
This, and Draco getting away with faking that his injury still hurt him, is our first indications that Madame Pomfrey can't actually heal everything in a trice, despite Harry's belief that injuries can all be magically healed with ease.
I don't see any rules that Malfoy and the other Slytherin's broke. Unless they went onto the field of play. It seems the the only problem that Harry has is with his own lack of concentration on the Snitch. There were not dementors to distract him.
Disguising oneselves as law enforcement personnel for the purposes of deception is generally frowned upon-- especially if those law enforcement personal are also highly dangerous soul-sucking entities and one did so on school grounds. I can totally see how this might get Draco into trouble.
I wonder what Harry's happy thought was.
Me too. He seemed very focused, which made the difference, I think.
Lupin doesn't give a clue that he recognized the Patronus.
I don't think it was fully formed yet. Strong enough to charge down the Faux Dementors, but not with a distinct form. No one else seems to have seen the stag, either
I've got to go. More later!
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PatPat - May 18, 2007 7:22 am (#121 of 257)
I don't think it was fully formed yet. Strong enough to charge down the Faux Dementors, but not with a distinct form. No one else seems to have seen the stag, either. Mrs. Brisbee
Not true. Dumbledore later tells Harry (don't have my book in front of me so I don't know the exact quote) that he saw the "unusual form" that Harry's patronus took at the Quidditch match and that it showed that James was inside Harry. I believe the "shaken" look on Lupin's face was a hint that he DID recognize the form of the patronus.
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journeymom - May 18, 2007 9:47 am (#122 of 257)
That's what I thought, too, PatPat.
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Mrs Brisbee - May 18, 2007 9:49 am (#123 of 257)
You are right, PatPat. It's been so long since I've read PoA I had forgotten exactly what Dumbledore says at the end. Still, I think the Patronus must have been only suggestive of a stag, rather than clearly a stag, or talk around school would have been of the big silver stag thing that charged down Malfoy and his pals. With that in mind, it does seem likely that would have also Lupin recognized the suggested stag form.
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Soul Search - May 18, 2007 9:56 am (#124 of 257)
Susan Bones must not have been at the match. In OotP she asks Harry "is it true you make a stag patronus."
Either that, or the fact that Harry cast the spell wasn't common knowledge.
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Choices - May 18, 2007 11:20 am (#125 of 257)
Right after the match is over....
"That was quite some Patronus," said a voice in Harry's ear. Harry turned around to see Professor Lupin, who looked both shaken and pleased."
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Mrs Brisbee - May 19, 2007 5:59 am (#126 of 257)
Mediwitch, thank you for your input on memory loss.
One other thing I wanted to note about Chapter 12 is that Harry has no happy memories from his time with the Dursleys, and the happy memory he finds that allows him to keep the boggart/dementor at bay is when he learns he will be leaving the Dursleys. The Dursleys' home is something like Azkaban to Harry.
Back to Chapter 13:
Ron and Hermione are feuding. In GOF Ron and Harry are Feuding. I can't recall an instance of Harry and Hermione not getting along except for the Firebolt incident.-- Steve Newton
I think there is a continuing theme of friends and family having a falling out. How much damage can a relationship take and still be mended? Harry keeps trying to make up with Hermione, but the overtaxed Hermione is brittle, and Ron is unforgiving about Scabbers. Harry had been angry with Hagrid about not giving him information about his parents and Sirius Black, but had set his anger aside out of concern for Hagrid. Ron isn't able to do the same for Hermione, because she won't take responsibility for her cat. Harry is worried, because he can't see how they can ever make up.
Only a few other notes:
Percy bets money he doesn't have! In GoF, so did Ludo Bagman.
Harry is charmed by Cho. She is pretty, a very good Quidditch player and excellent flying, enjoys the game, is good humored and cheerful. What's not to like?
The White Stag in mythology symbolizes the nearness of the Otherworld. In Harry's dream, he can't get close enough to see it.
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Steve Newton - May 21, 2007 12:03 pm (#127 of 257)
Chapter 14-Snape's Grudge
Ron asks a good question, "Why did he run?"
Neville runs before opening he Howler. He has shown incredible bravery in every other instance that I can think of.
Hagrid's cabin must be enormous, Hagrid and Buckbeak both live there.
Hagrid gives good advice, cats acting like cats and the importance of friends. Not that Harry and Ron pay attention.
Hermione has her heart in the right place. There are many heart references in the series, perhaps related to the love theme.
I wonder if Peter is there listening to the conversation.
Harry wants to get away from Neville. Neville is desperate for a friend.
They buy frog spawn in Hogsmeade. Is it toad or frog spawn that Petunia complains about Lily having had? (Awkward sentence). Perhaps a joke gone wrong.
I wonder what the Shack was before Lupin started using it. Did the secret passage already exist?
Harry's head appearing is one of many beheading images in the books.
Snape knows how to set Harry off.
Expulsion from Hogwarts seems to be the worst thing that Snape can imagine.
Snape thinks that the map is full of dark magic.
Lupin seems at a loss. He recovers.
Does Snape know who the manufacturers were?
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PatPat - May 21, 2007 6:09 pm (#128 of 257)
Does Snape know who the manufacturers were? Steve Newton
Excellent question. That remark by Snape has always bothered me. He clearly did not know about James and his friends being animagi since he was totally surprised when Sirius changed from a dog into a man in GoF. So why did he even mention "the manufacturers"? What did he mean if he didn't know who they were?
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Choices - May 21, 2007 6:39 pm (#129 of 257)
Oh, I think he knew who "the manufacturers" were and I think he knew that James, Sirius and Peter were animagi. It had been a few years since he had been at school with them, so I think that was why it startled him at the end of GOF when Sirius changed - he wasn't expecting it, so it took him by surprise.
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Mrs Brisbee - May 21, 2007 7:57 pm (#130 of 257)
I don't think Snape knew they were Animagi. Snape may have recognized a few of their nicknames, though, and a few of their tailored-to-Snape insults, too. After that, it can't have been too big a leap to think that Lupin and his friends were behind whatever magic was on the Map.
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Mrs Brisbee - May 22, 2007 6:13 am (#131 of 257)
Hagrid gives good advice, cats acting like cats and the importance of friends. Not that Harry and Ron pay attention.
Hermione has her heart in the right place. There are many heart references in the series, perhaps related to the love theme.--Steve Newton
Love for kith and kin is a strong theme. I noticed that Hermione was the only one who kept their promise to Hagrid to help him try to save Buckbeak. Her heart is in the right place. I also thought Hagrid's advice was good. Pets are often considered part of the family; even Scabbers was on Ron's shoulder in the family photo that appeared in the Daily Prophet. But it's good to remember that pets are not human-- excepting Scabbers-- and they will act like cats or like hippogriffs, and shouldn't be expected to act like a human.
Snape knows how to set Harry off.
Insulting someone's family seems to be a sure way of setting a person off. At the Shrieking Shack, Malfoy insults Ron's family, and Harry has to hold Ron back. Insulting James is what got Aunt Marge blown up.
Snape latches onto the fame thing again, for the third book in a row. In PS/SS, Harry was the "new celebrity" Snape picked on in class. In CoS, the stupid flying car debacle was Ron's brainchild, but Snape assumes it was Harry's attention seeking plan, with Ron the "sidekick". Now Snape is on the "famous Harry Potter" thing again. He immediately drags James into it: "He was exceedingly arrogant. A small amount of talent on the Quidditch field made him think he was a cut above the rest of us too." Snape is definitely projecting his perception of James onto Harry.
Another weird thing about the exchange is Snape's version of James saving his life. I assume Snape is being truthful, though it is possible that he knows, in his heart of hearts, that James really wasn't in on the trick. My question is if this tallies with Dumbledore's version of Snape's motive for protecting Harry that we heard in PS/SS? I can't see how Snape would think he owed James or Harry anything for a rescue from a dangerous situation he thinks his rescuer created. This doesn't add up to me. Was Dumbledore deceived, and Harry is seeing the real Snape? What was Snape's motive for his actions in PS/SS, then? Or does Snape know that James really wasn't in on it, and that he owes James his life but just doesn't want to admit it out loud?
I loved the whole scene with Harry in Snape's office and the Marauder's Map. It was hilarious and informative. I'm still not sure how Lupin managed to outmaneuver Snape and walk out with the Map. At that point perhaps Snape was just so incredulous he was at a complete loss for words.
Another question: How come no one knows about the one-eyed witch? Why isn't it being watched? Lupin must know that Sirius knows about that tunnel. Apparently Dumbledore doesn't know everything about Hogwarts. I'm willing to bet the owners of Honeydukes know all about the conveniently located tunnel. It must bring them in a few extra galleons between Hogsmeade weekends.
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journeymom - May 22, 2007 10:22 am (#132 of 257)
Frog spawn: I noticed that, too. And I tried to figure out if there was anything significant about that scene in PoA, and I just couldn't make anything out.
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Choices - May 22, 2007 8:12 pm (#133 of 257)
PatPat - ".... he was totally surprised when Sirius changed from a dog into a man in GoF."
If you go back to POA chapter 18, Lupin is talking about three unregistered animagi running around Hogwarts. Suddenly the door creaks and supposedly opens by itself - actually it is Snape entering the room under the invisibility cloak. Lupin continues speaking, telling the whole story of how James, Peter, and Sirius became animagi, what animals they turned into, and even how they created the Marauders Map. Snape hears it all from under the cloak. He does not reveal that he is there until the very last sentence of that chapter.
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Mrs Brisbee - May 23, 2007 3:41 am (#134 of 257)
Ah, I thought you all were talking about Snape knowing they were Animagi before the Shrieking Shack incident, which he clearly didn't. I need to read more closely. Anyway, Choices is right: Snape does overhear Lupin describe how his three friends became Animagi, although I don't think he mentions that Sirius turned into a dog and Peter turned into a rat between the time Snape entered the Shack until he was knocked unconscious. It was mentioned that Sirius's and James's forms were large and Pettigrew's was small, and Sirius did try to convince Snape to bring Ron's rat up to the castle, but I'm pretty sure no mention of exact forms were made.
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Choices - May 23, 2007 9:57 am (#135 of 257)
No, he did not mention what animals they turned into, but he did say what they were called - Sirius was Padfoot, James was Prongs and Peter was Wormtail, and he did say Peter was the smallest and James and Sirius were large animals. Pretty good hints, but not conclusive.
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PatPat - May 23, 2007 6:40 pm (#136 of 257)
GoF36: Sirius changes from a dog into a man: "Snape had not yelled or jumped backward, but the look on his face was one of mingled fury and horror. 'Him!' he snarled, staring at Sirius whose face showed equal dislike. 'What is he doing here?'"
You're correct Choices that, AFTER the Shrieking Shack incident, Snape must have known they were animagi. But it certainly appears that Snape was surprised by the exact form of Sirius' animagus. If not, he certainly pretended to be, for which I can think of no reason. However, that is really a moot point. The conversation about the Marauder's map took place BEFORE the incident in the Shrieking Shack. Which means that, at the time, he didn't know who Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, and Prongs were. Which brings us back to the original question, why did he make the comment about "the manufacturers?"
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Uncle Brad - May 23, 2007 7:19 pm (#137 of 257)
I agree with Mrs. Brisbee. I think Snape knew the nicknames of James & company and thus knew who had produced the map. I do not think he knew the meaning behind the names (although he had probably figured out why Lupin was called Moony). I think he was asking about the 'manufacturers' from Lupin thinking that Lupin had given Harry the map and all its very personal insulting abilities.
Other things I noticed in Chapter 14. The trolls were allowed in the seventh corridor. Granted they were trained security trolls, but they made a vast improvement in their status from the first book. Snape appears to be using Legimancy against Harry, albeit somewhat unsuccessfully. Lupin avoids Snape's eyes, staring at the map while he thinks of an excuse for it. He apparently knows of Snape's abilities.
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Mrs Brisbee - May 24, 2007 5:42 am (#138 of 257)
I think he was asking about the 'manufacturers' from Lupin thinking that Lupin had given Harry the map and all its very personal insulting abilities.-- Uncle Brad
And I agree with Uncle Brad ; That's what I think, too. Lupin's the only one of Snape's old school enemies that's in the castle (that Snape knows of), and he's seen Lupin and Harry having tea together in Lupin's office. And good catch about Lupin avoiding Snape's eyes.
If I hadn't of known about the big black dog, I would have guessed that "Padfoot" might mean something that could slink very quietly, like a big cat. I'd say by Snape's reaction in GoF that he doesn't know exactly what Sirius could change into, which proves that he wasn't a confidant of Dumbledore, or Wormtail.
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Choices - May 24, 2007 6:38 pm (#139 of 257)
In Snape's worst memory, I think at one point Sirius says "Bad luck, Prongs" or something like that and Snape could have heard it. Since he followed the Marauders and spied on them, it is not inconceivable that he could have heard them using their nicknames among themselves.
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Steve Newton - May 25, 2007 6:12 am (#140 of 257)
I'm listening to the book on CD and just listened to chapter 13. I note that Cho "decided to mark him rather than search for the snitch herself." Since Harry seems to be named in the Prophecy because he is marked this might be a hint that we are looking at the wrong type of mark. Or maybe emphasis.
When in doubt come down firmly on both sides of the issue.
I looked up 'mark' in the American Heritage Dictionary online at Bartleby.com. Found lots. More than I have actually read but I'm sure that there are funky definitions, which JKR knows, that changes what the Prophecy would mean.
1. A visible trace or impression, such as a line or spot. 2. A sign, such as a cross, made in lieu of a signature. 3. A written or printed symbol used for punctuation; a punctuation mark. 4a. A number, letter, or symbol used to indicate various grades of academic achievement: got a mark of 95 instead of 100. b. An appraisal; a rating. Often used in the plural: earned high marks from her superiors. 5a. An inscription, name, stamp, label, or seal placed on an article to signify ownership, quality, manufacture, or origin. b. A notch in an animal's ear or hide indicating ownership. 6. Nautical a. A knot or piece of material placed at various measured lengths on a sounding line to indicate the depth of the water. b. A Plimsoll mark. 7a. A distinctive trait or property: Good manners are the mark of a civilized person. b. A lasting effect: The experience had left its mark. c. Mark A particular mode, brand, size, or quality of a product, especially a weapon or machine. 8. A recognized standard of quality: schoolwork that is not up to the mark. 9a. Importance; prominence: “a fellow of no mark nor likelihood” (Shakespeare). b. Notice; attention: a matter unworthy of mark. 10. A target: “A mounted officer would be a conspicuous mark” (Ambrose Bierce). 11. Something that one wishes to achieve; a goal. 12. An object or point that serves as a guide. 13. Slang A person who is the intended victim of a swindler; a dupe. 14a. Sports The place from which racers begin and sometimes end their contest. b. A point reached or gained: the halfway mark of the race. c. A record: set a new mark in the long jump. 15. Sports a. A strike or spare in bowling. b. A stationary ball in lawn bowling; a jack. 16. A boundary between countries. 17. A tract of land in medieval England and Germany held in common by a community. 18. Computer Science A character or feature in a file, record, or data stream used to locate a specific point or condition. VERB: Inflected forms: marked, mark•ing, marks
TRANSITIVE VERB: 1a. To make a visible trace or impression on, as with a spot, line, or dent. b. To form, make, or depict by making a mark: marked a square on the board. c. To supply with natural markings: gray fur that is marked with stripes. 2a. To single out or indicate by or as if by a mark: marked the spot where the treasure was buried; a career marked for glory. b. To distinguish or characterize: the exuberance that marks her writings; marked the occasion with celebrations. c. To make conspicuous: a concert marking the composer's 60th birthday. 3. To set off or separate by or as if by a line or boundary: marked off the limits of our property. 4. To attach or affix identification, such as a price tag or maker's label, to. 5. To evaluate (academic work) according to a scale of letters or numbers; grade. 6a. To give attention to; notice: Mark her expression of discontent. Mark my words: they are asking for trouble. b. To take note of in writing; write down: marked the appointment on my calendar. c. Sports & Games To record (the score) in various games. 7. Sports To guard (an opponent), as in soccer. INTRANSITIVE VERB: 1. To make a visible impression: This pen will mark under water. 2. To receive a visible impression: The floor marks easily. 3. Sports & Games To keep score. 4. To determine academic grades: a teacher who marks strictly. 5. Archaic To pay attention; notice. PHRASAL VERBS: mark down To mark for sale at a lower price. mark up 1. To deface by covering with marks. 2. To mark for sale at a higher price. IDIOMS: beside the mark Beside the point; irrelevant. mark time 1. To move the feet alternately in the rhythm of a marching step without advancing. 2. To suspend progress for the time being; wait in readiness. 3. To function in an apathetic or ineffective manner. ETYMOLOGY: Middle English, from Old English mearc. See merg- in Appendix I. SYNONYMS: mark1, brand, label, tag1, ticket These verbs mean to place a mark of identification on: marked the items on the list with a check; brand cattle; labeled the boxes; tagged suitcases; ticketed the new merchandise. See also synonyms at sign.
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Mrs Brisbee - May 25, 2007 11:22 am (#141 of 257)
"decided to mark him rather than search for the snitch herself."
Interesting idea, Steve. Voldemort's dogged obsession with Harry is a bit like that.
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Steve Newton - May 28, 2007 3:50 pm (#142 of 257)
Sorry to take so long to do this. Life is insisting on interfering with my reading.
Chapter 15-The Quidditch Final
Hermione threatens Draco with her wand and then does nothing. I'm sure that she could have.
If I were Hermione I think that I would dial up an extra couple of hours of sleep now and again.
If Hermione had to use the time turner and only got 11 OWLS how did Percy and Crouch, Jr. manage to get 12 OWLS?
I'm not particularly impressed with Trelawney's prediction about losing someone forever.
"Wood was crouched over a model of a Quidditch field prodding little figures across it with his wand and muttering to himself." This sounds like what Dumbledore has been doing throughout the first 6 books.
Harry dreams that they had to use Neville instead. I'm still only 80% sure that Harry is the one to defeat Voldemort. I'm also still not very good at the dream scenes.
Draco makes the right play. Forego the penalty and he loses. Take the penalty and he still has a chance.
If Harry doesn't have the better broom he loses.
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Uncle Brad - May 28, 2007 7:04 pm (#143 of 257)
I also wondered about Hermione's 11 O.W.L.S. Her class schedule seems to me to be contrived to make sure we know the time turner works. J.K. R. has said that 12 is the maximum number of O.W.L.S. achievable, but the others seem to have managed without the use of the time turner. I also agree that Hermione would dial up some sleep time, but then again she was probably warned by McGonagall to use it only to make her classes, and being Hermione she wouldn't think of breaking THAT trust.
Hermione quits Divination and threatens and slaps Draco. I think this impressed Ron. I also think her apology to Ron was needed, I don't think that it was just the news of Buckbeak or Hermione's reaction to that news.
Just when was Charlie seeker? Acording to the timeline he was three years ahead of Percy. But if that is the case then he had to have missed playing his last year. Was he injured like Cho and others?
Hermione is even interested int he match. She cannot study. It is very unlike her. Snape wears GREEN to the match. Unlike the movies that always portray him in black.
Harry was lucky more than once in the match. he could have easily lost it all. Dreaming about facing the Slytherins on dragons seemed to me to forshadow the Hungarian Horntail in the next book a bit.
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journeymom - May 28, 2007 10:33 pm (#144 of 257)
Snape wears green in the book, and in Gof Harry's dress robes are 'bottle' green. Mrs Weasley chose the color because it matched his eyes.
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Mrs Brisbee - May 29, 2007 7:04 am (#145 of 257)
I would assume that if Hermione needed a Time Turner to get twelve OWLs, then so would Percy and Crouch, Jr. Has anyone tried doing up Hermione's schedule? At this point, I'm a bit confused about which classes conflict with which other classes.
Hermione misses Charms, but doesn't use the Time Turner to go back and take Charms. Why not? Is Charms not conflicting with another class, so she's not cleared to use the Time Turner for it?
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PatPat - May 29, 2007 6:07 pm (#146 of 257)
I also wonder about Hermione's 11 OWLS. When she turns the time turner back in, she says she can now have a "normal" schedule again, which makes me think that her schedule before was abnormal. So, how did Percy and Crouch Jr. get 12 OWLS without one? Technically we have no direct canon that they DIDN'T use one. So it's possible they did have a time turner.
I'm thinking Charms must not have conflicted with another class because Harry and Ron found Hermione asleep during that time, but apparently Charms is the only class she missed.
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Mrs Brisbee - May 30, 2007 5:26 am (#147 of 257)
Hermione's schedule is confusing. I wonder if Rowling actually wrote the schedule down. On the first day of school they had Divination in the morning, then Transfiguration, and Care of Magical Creatures in the afternoon. This seems to have been a Wednesday. On the day Hermione hit Draco, they had Care of Magical Creatures, then Charms, and then Divination in the afternoon. Perhaps this was a Monday? Then they had Potions on Thursday mornings, and DADA on Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday, and maybe on Monday too. According to Ron, Arithmancy sometimes falls at the same time as Care of Magical Creatures, so perhaps Hermione used the Time Turner for her two classes right before Charms, then forgot to go to Charms.
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Choices - May 30, 2007 9:22 am (#148 of 257)
There must be some strange connection between Harry and Neville that needs to be sorted out. There are too many hints about it. When Harry boards the Knight Bus he tells them his name is Neville Longbottom and then he also dreams of being replaced by Neville. Something is going on here!
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Steve Newton - May 30, 2007 9:44 am (#149 of 257)
Edited May 30, 2007 10:16 am
Connections between Harry and Neville.
The prophecy could have referred to either Harry or Neville
They were born a day apart
They both lost their parents to Voldemort or his minions
They are both Gryffindors
They have been to the Forbidden Forest together
They have each broken their right arms while on broomsticks
They have both dated Ginny
They have both been hit with the Tarantallegra spell (not sure of the spelling)
They can both see Thestrals
Snape hates both
I copied this from a post that I made on the Neville thread. I think that Neville has an immensely important role to play.
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Steve Newton - May 31, 2007 6:46 pm (#150 of 257)
Chapter 16-Professor Trelawney's Prediction
In a couple of books Hermione will be testy at exam time.
Harry seems to have put quite a bit of power into his cheering charm.
Lupin creates a swamp on the grounds. The twins do similarly in OOTP.
Handles all of the dark creatures.
Does Fudge recognize Ron as a Weasley?
Trelawney is not aware of her prophecies.
They hear 2 people cross the entrance hall while they hide. It is them. This is the sort of dirty trick that JKR seems to like.
"Swish and thud" seems to be quite different from Flitwick's "swish and flick" from ss/ps.
Mrs Brisbee - May 11, 2007 6:17 am (#101 of 257)
At least it shows us that the Headmasters' portraits get around the castle. We've never seen any of the other portraits visit the Headmaster's Office.
"Firebolt" does sound like a cross between "fire" and "thunderbolt", but it's not in any of my dictionaries.
My brain seems to have jammed. I know themes of friendship, loyalty, and betrayal are being developed, but I can't form any coherent thoughts about them. Last chapter betrayal was likened worse than murder. Harry finds out that Sirius Black betrayed his best friend, Harry's father. I have to wonder if learning about Black's betrayal effects how Harry reacts to Hermione telling McGonagall about the broom. Harry does realize that she means the best, but I wonder if subconsciously he stays angry at her "betrayal". Hermione's actions remind me of Neville's in PS/SS, where he stands up to his friends, which is an act of courage. Harry and Ron let the coolness factor of the Marauder's Map and Firebolt override their good sense. They managed to talk Hermione into not saying anything about the Map, but the Broom is just too much for her.
At the beginning of the Chapter, Hermione and Ron are afraid Harry might do something stupid and go after Black. Harry is going on about what Draco Malfoy had said. Ron says: "You're going to take Malfoy's advice instead of ours?" Ron has a good point. Listen to your friends. Don't let your enemies decide how you will fight. Ron also had several other nice moments: he shows his closeness to his family when he imparts the information from his Dad about Pettigrew's mother getting his Order of Merlin and a finger in a box, and when he makes Hagrid a cup of tea because that's what his Mum does to comfort people. I think Ron will be a great family man.
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Steve Newton - May 11, 2007 8:08 am (#102 of 257)
Edited May 11, 2007 8:46 am
I looked up plate mail on Wikipedia. I know, not necessarily a reliable source, but good enough for our purposes, I think.
Anyway, plate mail seems to have come in in the late 13th century and lasted until the 16th. 1200s to the 1500s by my count. Gunpowder weapons were sort of a problem for it.
Does this make Sir Cadogan a sort of Don Quixote?
"Ron says: "You're going to take Malfoy's advice instead of ours?" Ron has a good point. Listen to your friends. Don't let your enemies decide how you will fight."
A pretty good description of the military of the initiative.
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journeymom - May 11, 2007 11:01 am (#103 of 257)
Well, if plate mail didn't come around until the late 1200's, then that wouldn't fit with the Founder's era. Hogwarts was created more than a thousand years ago. It's currently 1997 in Harry's universe (right?) so that would put the Founding of Hogwarts at sometime before the year 997 a.d. Sir Cadogan is cute, though.
Steve, I'm not sure what 'military of the initiative' means. But if you mean military strategy, I agree. And ever since I learned about the Philosohpers Stone-chess-game-as frame-work-for-final-battle theory, I've wondered if Ron will provide Harry with some strategic advise at the end.
So, "Ron says: "You're going to take Malfoy's advice instead of ours?" Ron has a good point. Listen to your friends. Don't let your enemies decide how you will fight." makes sense. Ron just needs to come into his own.
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Steve Newton - May 11, 2007 12:00 pm (#104 of 257)
Okay, I meant to say the military 'concept' of the initiative. In other words if you are doing something than the other guy has to react to you and cannot do what he wants.
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Steve Newton - May 12, 2007 5:23 am (#105 of 257)
I was thinking back to the train ride in chapter 5. By my count all of Harry's core group except Luna, Ron, Hermione, Neville, Ginny, and perhaps Lupin, were all there.
The core group went to the MOM with Harry and have all fought in at least 2 battles. (Lupin came to the MOM with another group, the OOTP.)
I think that the core group, Harry, Ron, Hermione, Neville, Ginny, Luna and maybe Lupin will drive the action in DH.
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Mrs Brisbee - May 12, 2007 7:38 am (#106 of 257)
Steve, you are saying, I think, that the people who sit with Harry on the train will always be his core group, not just for the book they ride with him? I don't know. Lupin was important again in OotP. I like the character, and hope he will have an important role again in DH. He is the last of James's and Sirius's friends.
Other people who have sat with Harry on the train are Peter Pettigrew, AKA Scabbers, in PS/SS, CoS, and PoA. And in HBP, Harry had to go to Slughorn's party-- which did get him together with Ginny on the train, and also with a bunch of other people whose names I can't remember. Harry also chose in HBP to sneak into Draco's compartment to spy, thereby finishing the train ride with his schoolboy nemesis.
Whether or not this will apply to the future story remains to be seen.
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Steve Newton - May 12, 2007 3:08 pm (#107 of 257)
"Steve, you are saying, I think, that the people who sit with Harry on the train will always be his core group"
Yep, that is what I am saying. I will have to give some thought to Peter. Technically a rat rode with Harry. Don't know. Lupin gives me problems. I think that he fits but it may be just the students who ride with Harry in his compartment. This would take care of Peter also. In HBP Harry rides in Slughorn's compartment. I think that this is different. Harry is accompanying the Slug while in the other books folks are accompanying Harry.
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Uncle Brad - May 13, 2007 6:00 pm (#108 of 257)
Playing catch-up again...
Chapter 10 - In addition to the excellent observations (that went completely over my head) I noticed that on the essay on werewolves, Lupin told the class on Monday that they did not have to do it. That was also the day Snape assigned it to be done. Hermione seemed to be the only one who finished the essay, making me wonder about the timing.
Harry was DEEP underground going to Honeydukes. 200 steps climbing a stair is like going up a 20 story building.
Chapter 11 - 'The Firebolt'
The funniest meal in litiature..., I couldn't agree more. It was a shame they didn't put it in the film, it would have been a riot. Wizarding crackers seem to have a sense of humor of their own - what with the Vulture hat for Snape... Having Trewlawney predict your death seems a sure fire way of living a long time, although one could argue that the first to rise was actually Dumbledore, when he stood to make a chair for Trewlawney, otherwise the good professor would be wrong about her prediction, and I think she would never see it that way.
Half a dozen Dung Bombs and the common room was still full and the dorm is empty?
Ron stayed for the holidays while the rest of the Weasley children went home. I wonder what Molly thought of that?
As far as the 'core group', I feel it is just Ron and Hermione. The others that have been added on over time come and go, and are not nearly as important seeming in the long run. As Steve indicated, it may just boil down to those who 'accompany Harry' rather than those who he happens to accompany on the train at whatever point.
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Mrs Brisbee - May 14, 2007 5:44 am (#109 of 257)
The funniest meal in litiature...
McGonagall was in top form. I love how she diffused the situation when Trelawney was demanding to know who was the first to rise, and therefore the first to die. This is one reason McGonagall was a favorite character of mine. The witty, acerbic McGonagall reappears in OotP when she takes on Umbridge. I hope we see her again in DH.
I think Ron and Hermione will retain their positions as Harry's core group, but with Neville, Ginny, and Luna in support.
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Steve Newton - May 14, 2007 8:00 am (#110 of 257)
Did I actually write 'litiature'? Oh, my God. Repeat as many times as necessary, "Spell check is a good thing!"
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Mrs Brisbee - May 14, 2007 8:54 am (#111 of 257)
Oops! It seems your original statement is fine, Steve. It just got mangled in the repeating. I think I'm the one who needs to use that spell check button more often.
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Steve Newton - May 15, 2007 10:45 am (#112 of 257)
Chapter 12-The Patronus
JKR has now spent 11 chapters destroying Trelawney's credibility. Its about time for her to slip us something important. I don't think that Harry's lifeline is it.
Lupin was in Filch's office checking out the filing cabinet. Looking for the map?
More Godric's Hollow hints. I can't put them together yet but still no hint of anyone besides the 3 Potters and Voldemort being there.
Harry's desire to hear his parents interferes with his patronus. Lupin also reacts to his comments.
Ernie is taking Muggle studies. Isn't he the one who claims to be able to trace his magical roots back 9 generations?
I would have liked to have seen Wood's conversation with McGonagall.
I'm hoping that a Hurling Hex throws you not...um...something else.
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Uncle Brad - May 15, 2007 8:15 pm (#113 of 257)
I agree Steve, Wood's conversation with McGonagall may have matched the Christmas dinner. But then again, he does seem demented about winning.
I never noticed the connection with Lupin looking in Filch's filing cabinet and the Marauder's map. If he was then the question would be 'why'. Would he use it to keep an eye out for Sirius?
I wonder what other classes Ernie is taking. I really wonder about Hermione's schedule and how another student would pick electives that interfere with one another like her's do. I know it was put in that way as a plot point, but anyone wanting to take Muggle Studies and Divination wouldn't be able to as they are at the same time. One other thing I noticed is it seems that the entire Gryffindor third year class is taking Divination and Care of Magical Creatures. Has no one but Hermione selected a different elective?
Lupin tells Harry 'You can exist without your soul...' Is this a hint of Voldemort's fate?
My first comment on this board was to the effect of 'three cheers for the spell checker!'
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Mrs Brisbee - May 16, 2007 3:58 am (#114 of 257)
Lupin was in Filch's office checking out the filing cabinet. Looking for the map?-- Steve Newton
I never thought of that. Maybe. The Map is a powerful and useful magic item.
Lupin tells Harry 'You can exist without your soul...' Is this a hint of Voldemort's fate?-- Uncle Brad
Rowling does seem to be giving us some general information about the nature of the soul.
Someone can exist without a soul-- the body will keep on working, at any rate, but it will be an empty shell.
Someone without a soul has no memory. I suspect that memory must be indelibly connected to the soul. We've seen magical memory modifications, but Morfin's memory in HBP indicates that even the best altered memory is recoverable. We've also seen that memory can be duplicated and put in things that have no soul, like portraits. If Tom Riddle's Diary is any indication, a bit of soul is needed to be able to use the experiences from copied memories in an adaptive way. Otherwise, it's more like a set program.
Someone without a soul has "no sense of self". Not sure what this means. That they are just not there anymore, I suppose.
The information does tell us that the soul exists as an entity in the Harry Potter world, and it is possible to remove even all of it from the body without the body dying.
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journeymom - May 16, 2007 8:49 am (#115 of 257)
Mrs B- 'no sense of self'. A common theme in Snape-centric fan fiction is the Wicker Man. Voldemort has been defeated and the MoM is rounding up Death Eaters and performing some sort of magical procedure that removes their souls. Why they don't just use dementors, I don't know; maybe the Ministry has learned its lesson and doesn't want anything to do with dementors anymore. In any case, the victim is a complete automaton, like a robot. Their self awareness has been erased.
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Jenniffler - May 16, 2007 9:01 am (#116 of 257)
Souless creatures without souls? Sounds like they need a double re-soling.
Sorry to do that a your expense, Journeymom. Giggle, snort, giggle, sigh.
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Mrs Brisbee - May 16, 2007 11:15 am (#117 of 257)
In any case, the victim is a complete automaton, like a robot. Their self awareness has been erased.-- Journeymom
That makes sense. I just wondered what someone could do with no memory either. Maybe just follow outside input, and do whatever someone else instructed: "sit," "stand," "walk forward," etc.
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Mediwitch - May 16, 2007 7:34 pm (#118 of 257)
People without memories (or with very poor ones) live all around us - ever try talking to a person with dementia or Alzheimer's? It's a LOT of repetition because they can't remember much! (My father-in-law has Alzheimer's, and he lives with us. Sometimes I feel like a broken record, but he can't remember that we had the same conversation two minutes previously.)
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Steve Newton - May 17, 2007 10:49 am (#119 of 257)
Chapter 13-Gryffindor Versus Ravenclaw
Ron and Hermione are feuding. In GOF Ron and Harry are Feuding. I can't recall an instance of Harry and Hermione not getting along except for the Firebolt incident.
A reminder of Scabbers biting Goyle and that Goyle has a scar.
Ron shows interest in playing Quidditch.
If Madam Hooch was there to protect Harry from Sirius it would suggest that she is powerful. Or very good at calling for help.
I wonder what Cho's injuries were. Probably not important.
Harry loops Katie. I am suspicious of loops.
Hooch doesn't seem to be overly attentive.
Lee gives a passing reference to the Firebolts being used by national teams. We see the Irish team using them in GOF.
I don't see any rules that Malfoy and the other Slytherin's broke. Unless they went onto the field of play. It seems the the only problem that Harry has is with his own lack of concentration on the Snitch. There were not dementors to distract him.
I wonder what Harry's happy thought was.
Patronuses seem to be useful against more than just dementors.
Lupin doesn't give a clue that he recognized the Patronus.
Another dream that I don't understand.
I don't think that many people would 'fess up as Neville did.
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Mrs Brisbee - May 18, 2007 3:58 am (#120 of 257)
I wonder what Cho's injuries were. Probably not important.--Steve Newton
This, and Draco getting away with faking that his injury still hurt him, is our first indications that Madame Pomfrey can't actually heal everything in a trice, despite Harry's belief that injuries can all be magically healed with ease.
I don't see any rules that Malfoy and the other Slytherin's broke. Unless they went onto the field of play. It seems the the only problem that Harry has is with his own lack of concentration on the Snitch. There were not dementors to distract him.
Disguising oneselves as law enforcement personnel for the purposes of deception is generally frowned upon-- especially if those law enforcement personal are also highly dangerous soul-sucking entities and one did so on school grounds. I can totally see how this might get Draco into trouble.
I wonder what Harry's happy thought was.
Me too. He seemed very focused, which made the difference, I think.
Lupin doesn't give a clue that he recognized the Patronus.
I don't think it was fully formed yet. Strong enough to charge down the Faux Dementors, but not with a distinct form. No one else seems to have seen the stag, either
I've got to go. More later!
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PatPat - May 18, 2007 7:22 am (#121 of 257)
I don't think it was fully formed yet. Strong enough to charge down the Faux Dementors, but not with a distinct form. No one else seems to have seen the stag, either. Mrs. Brisbee
Not true. Dumbledore later tells Harry (don't have my book in front of me so I don't know the exact quote) that he saw the "unusual form" that Harry's patronus took at the Quidditch match and that it showed that James was inside Harry. I believe the "shaken" look on Lupin's face was a hint that he DID recognize the form of the patronus.
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journeymom - May 18, 2007 9:47 am (#122 of 257)
That's what I thought, too, PatPat.
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Mrs Brisbee - May 18, 2007 9:49 am (#123 of 257)
You are right, PatPat. It's been so long since I've read PoA I had forgotten exactly what Dumbledore says at the end. Still, I think the Patronus must have been only suggestive of a stag, rather than clearly a stag, or talk around school would have been of the big silver stag thing that charged down Malfoy and his pals. With that in mind, it does seem likely that would have also Lupin recognized the suggested stag form.
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Soul Search - May 18, 2007 9:56 am (#124 of 257)
Susan Bones must not have been at the match. In OotP she asks Harry "is it true you make a stag patronus."
Either that, or the fact that Harry cast the spell wasn't common knowledge.
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Choices - May 18, 2007 11:20 am (#125 of 257)
Right after the match is over....
"That was quite some Patronus," said a voice in Harry's ear. Harry turned around to see Professor Lupin, who looked both shaken and pleased."
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Mrs Brisbee - May 19, 2007 5:59 am (#126 of 257)
Mediwitch, thank you for your input on memory loss.
One other thing I wanted to note about Chapter 12 is that Harry has no happy memories from his time with the Dursleys, and the happy memory he finds that allows him to keep the boggart/dementor at bay is when he learns he will be leaving the Dursleys. The Dursleys' home is something like Azkaban to Harry.
Back to Chapter 13:
Ron and Hermione are feuding. In GOF Ron and Harry are Feuding. I can't recall an instance of Harry and Hermione not getting along except for the Firebolt incident.-- Steve Newton
I think there is a continuing theme of friends and family having a falling out. How much damage can a relationship take and still be mended? Harry keeps trying to make up with Hermione, but the overtaxed Hermione is brittle, and Ron is unforgiving about Scabbers. Harry had been angry with Hagrid about not giving him information about his parents and Sirius Black, but had set his anger aside out of concern for Hagrid. Ron isn't able to do the same for Hermione, because she won't take responsibility for her cat. Harry is worried, because he can't see how they can ever make up.
Only a few other notes:
Percy bets money he doesn't have! In GoF, so did Ludo Bagman.
Harry is charmed by Cho. She is pretty, a very good Quidditch player and excellent flying, enjoys the game, is good humored and cheerful. What's not to like?
The White Stag in mythology symbolizes the nearness of the Otherworld. In Harry's dream, he can't get close enough to see it.
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Steve Newton - May 21, 2007 12:03 pm (#127 of 257)
Chapter 14-Snape's Grudge
Ron asks a good question, "Why did he run?"
Neville runs before opening he Howler. He has shown incredible bravery in every other instance that I can think of.
Hagrid's cabin must be enormous, Hagrid and Buckbeak both live there.
Hagrid gives good advice, cats acting like cats and the importance of friends. Not that Harry and Ron pay attention.
Hermione has her heart in the right place. There are many heart references in the series, perhaps related to the love theme.
I wonder if Peter is there listening to the conversation.
Harry wants to get away from Neville. Neville is desperate for a friend.
They buy frog spawn in Hogsmeade. Is it toad or frog spawn that Petunia complains about Lily having had? (Awkward sentence). Perhaps a joke gone wrong.
I wonder what the Shack was before Lupin started using it. Did the secret passage already exist?
Harry's head appearing is one of many beheading images in the books.
Snape knows how to set Harry off.
Expulsion from Hogwarts seems to be the worst thing that Snape can imagine.
Snape thinks that the map is full of dark magic.
Lupin seems at a loss. He recovers.
Does Snape know who the manufacturers were?
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PatPat - May 21, 2007 6:09 pm (#128 of 257)
Does Snape know who the manufacturers were? Steve Newton
Excellent question. That remark by Snape has always bothered me. He clearly did not know about James and his friends being animagi since he was totally surprised when Sirius changed from a dog into a man in GoF. So why did he even mention "the manufacturers"? What did he mean if he didn't know who they were?
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Choices - May 21, 2007 6:39 pm (#129 of 257)
Oh, I think he knew who "the manufacturers" were and I think he knew that James, Sirius and Peter were animagi. It had been a few years since he had been at school with them, so I think that was why it startled him at the end of GOF when Sirius changed - he wasn't expecting it, so it took him by surprise.
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Mrs Brisbee - May 21, 2007 7:57 pm (#130 of 257)
I don't think Snape knew they were Animagi. Snape may have recognized a few of their nicknames, though, and a few of their tailored-to-Snape insults, too. After that, it can't have been too big a leap to think that Lupin and his friends were behind whatever magic was on the Map.
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Mrs Brisbee - May 22, 2007 6:13 am (#131 of 257)
Hagrid gives good advice, cats acting like cats and the importance of friends. Not that Harry and Ron pay attention.
Hermione has her heart in the right place. There are many heart references in the series, perhaps related to the love theme.--Steve Newton
Love for kith and kin is a strong theme. I noticed that Hermione was the only one who kept their promise to Hagrid to help him try to save Buckbeak. Her heart is in the right place. I also thought Hagrid's advice was good. Pets are often considered part of the family; even Scabbers was on Ron's shoulder in the family photo that appeared in the Daily Prophet. But it's good to remember that pets are not human-- excepting Scabbers-- and they will act like cats or like hippogriffs, and shouldn't be expected to act like a human.
Snape knows how to set Harry off.
Insulting someone's family seems to be a sure way of setting a person off. At the Shrieking Shack, Malfoy insults Ron's family, and Harry has to hold Ron back. Insulting James is what got Aunt Marge blown up.
Snape latches onto the fame thing again, for the third book in a row. In PS/SS, Harry was the "new celebrity" Snape picked on in class. In CoS, the stupid flying car debacle was Ron's brainchild, but Snape assumes it was Harry's attention seeking plan, with Ron the "sidekick". Now Snape is on the "famous Harry Potter" thing again. He immediately drags James into it: "He was exceedingly arrogant. A small amount of talent on the Quidditch field made him think he was a cut above the rest of us too." Snape is definitely projecting his perception of James onto Harry.
Another weird thing about the exchange is Snape's version of James saving his life. I assume Snape is being truthful, though it is possible that he knows, in his heart of hearts, that James really wasn't in on the trick. My question is if this tallies with Dumbledore's version of Snape's motive for protecting Harry that we heard in PS/SS? I can't see how Snape would think he owed James or Harry anything for a rescue from a dangerous situation he thinks his rescuer created. This doesn't add up to me. Was Dumbledore deceived, and Harry is seeing the real Snape? What was Snape's motive for his actions in PS/SS, then? Or does Snape know that James really wasn't in on it, and that he owes James his life but just doesn't want to admit it out loud?
I loved the whole scene with Harry in Snape's office and the Marauder's Map. It was hilarious and informative. I'm still not sure how Lupin managed to outmaneuver Snape and walk out with the Map. At that point perhaps Snape was just so incredulous he was at a complete loss for words.
Another question: How come no one knows about the one-eyed witch? Why isn't it being watched? Lupin must know that Sirius knows about that tunnel. Apparently Dumbledore doesn't know everything about Hogwarts. I'm willing to bet the owners of Honeydukes know all about the conveniently located tunnel. It must bring them in a few extra galleons between Hogsmeade weekends.
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journeymom - May 22, 2007 10:22 am (#132 of 257)
Frog spawn: I noticed that, too. And I tried to figure out if there was anything significant about that scene in PoA, and I just couldn't make anything out.
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Choices - May 22, 2007 8:12 pm (#133 of 257)
PatPat - ".... he was totally surprised when Sirius changed from a dog into a man in GoF."
If you go back to POA chapter 18, Lupin is talking about three unregistered animagi running around Hogwarts. Suddenly the door creaks and supposedly opens by itself - actually it is Snape entering the room under the invisibility cloak. Lupin continues speaking, telling the whole story of how James, Peter, and Sirius became animagi, what animals they turned into, and even how they created the Marauders Map. Snape hears it all from under the cloak. He does not reveal that he is there until the very last sentence of that chapter.
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Mrs Brisbee - May 23, 2007 3:41 am (#134 of 257)
Ah, I thought you all were talking about Snape knowing they were Animagi before the Shrieking Shack incident, which he clearly didn't. I need to read more closely. Anyway, Choices is right: Snape does overhear Lupin describe how his three friends became Animagi, although I don't think he mentions that Sirius turned into a dog and Peter turned into a rat between the time Snape entered the Shack until he was knocked unconscious. It was mentioned that Sirius's and James's forms were large and Pettigrew's was small, and Sirius did try to convince Snape to bring Ron's rat up to the castle, but I'm pretty sure no mention of exact forms were made.
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Choices - May 23, 2007 9:57 am (#135 of 257)
No, he did not mention what animals they turned into, but he did say what they were called - Sirius was Padfoot, James was Prongs and Peter was Wormtail, and he did say Peter was the smallest and James and Sirius were large animals. Pretty good hints, but not conclusive.
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PatPat - May 23, 2007 6:40 pm (#136 of 257)
GoF36: Sirius changes from a dog into a man: "Snape had not yelled or jumped backward, but the look on his face was one of mingled fury and horror. 'Him!' he snarled, staring at Sirius whose face showed equal dislike. 'What is he doing here?'"
You're correct Choices that, AFTER the Shrieking Shack incident, Snape must have known they were animagi. But it certainly appears that Snape was surprised by the exact form of Sirius' animagus. If not, he certainly pretended to be, for which I can think of no reason. However, that is really a moot point. The conversation about the Marauder's map took place BEFORE the incident in the Shrieking Shack. Which means that, at the time, he didn't know who Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, and Prongs were. Which brings us back to the original question, why did he make the comment about "the manufacturers?"
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Uncle Brad - May 23, 2007 7:19 pm (#137 of 257)
I agree with Mrs. Brisbee. I think Snape knew the nicknames of James & company and thus knew who had produced the map. I do not think he knew the meaning behind the names (although he had probably figured out why Lupin was called Moony). I think he was asking about the 'manufacturers' from Lupin thinking that Lupin had given Harry the map and all its very personal insulting abilities.
Other things I noticed in Chapter 14. The trolls were allowed in the seventh corridor. Granted they were trained security trolls, but they made a vast improvement in their status from the first book. Snape appears to be using Legimancy against Harry, albeit somewhat unsuccessfully. Lupin avoids Snape's eyes, staring at the map while he thinks of an excuse for it. He apparently knows of Snape's abilities.
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Mrs Brisbee - May 24, 2007 5:42 am (#138 of 257)
I think he was asking about the 'manufacturers' from Lupin thinking that Lupin had given Harry the map and all its very personal insulting abilities.-- Uncle Brad
And I agree with Uncle Brad ; That's what I think, too. Lupin's the only one of Snape's old school enemies that's in the castle (that Snape knows of), and he's seen Lupin and Harry having tea together in Lupin's office. And good catch about Lupin avoiding Snape's eyes.
If I hadn't of known about the big black dog, I would have guessed that "Padfoot" might mean something that could slink very quietly, like a big cat. I'd say by Snape's reaction in GoF that he doesn't know exactly what Sirius could change into, which proves that he wasn't a confidant of Dumbledore, or Wormtail.
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Choices - May 24, 2007 6:38 pm (#139 of 257)
In Snape's worst memory, I think at one point Sirius says "Bad luck, Prongs" or something like that and Snape could have heard it. Since he followed the Marauders and spied on them, it is not inconceivable that he could have heard them using their nicknames among themselves.
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Steve Newton - May 25, 2007 6:12 am (#140 of 257)
I'm listening to the book on CD and just listened to chapter 13. I note that Cho "decided to mark him rather than search for the snitch herself." Since Harry seems to be named in the Prophecy because he is marked this might be a hint that we are looking at the wrong type of mark. Or maybe emphasis.
When in doubt come down firmly on both sides of the issue.
I looked up 'mark' in the American Heritage Dictionary online at Bartleby.com. Found lots. More than I have actually read but I'm sure that there are funky definitions, which JKR knows, that changes what the Prophecy would mean.
1. A visible trace or impression, such as a line or spot. 2. A sign, such as a cross, made in lieu of a signature. 3. A written or printed symbol used for punctuation; a punctuation mark. 4a. A number, letter, or symbol used to indicate various grades of academic achievement: got a mark of 95 instead of 100. b. An appraisal; a rating. Often used in the plural: earned high marks from her superiors. 5a. An inscription, name, stamp, label, or seal placed on an article to signify ownership, quality, manufacture, or origin. b. A notch in an animal's ear or hide indicating ownership. 6. Nautical a. A knot or piece of material placed at various measured lengths on a sounding line to indicate the depth of the water. b. A Plimsoll mark. 7a. A distinctive trait or property: Good manners are the mark of a civilized person. b. A lasting effect: The experience had left its mark. c. Mark A particular mode, brand, size, or quality of a product, especially a weapon or machine. 8. A recognized standard of quality: schoolwork that is not up to the mark. 9a. Importance; prominence: “a fellow of no mark nor likelihood” (Shakespeare). b. Notice; attention: a matter unworthy of mark. 10. A target: “A mounted officer would be a conspicuous mark” (Ambrose Bierce). 11. Something that one wishes to achieve; a goal. 12. An object or point that serves as a guide. 13. Slang A person who is the intended victim of a swindler; a dupe. 14a. Sports The place from which racers begin and sometimes end their contest. b. A point reached or gained: the halfway mark of the race. c. A record: set a new mark in the long jump. 15. Sports a. A strike or spare in bowling. b. A stationary ball in lawn bowling; a jack. 16. A boundary between countries. 17. A tract of land in medieval England and Germany held in common by a community. 18. Computer Science A character or feature in a file, record, or data stream used to locate a specific point or condition. VERB: Inflected forms: marked, mark•ing, marks
TRANSITIVE VERB: 1a. To make a visible trace or impression on, as with a spot, line, or dent. b. To form, make, or depict by making a mark: marked a square on the board. c. To supply with natural markings: gray fur that is marked with stripes. 2a. To single out or indicate by or as if by a mark: marked the spot where the treasure was buried; a career marked for glory. b. To distinguish or characterize: the exuberance that marks her writings; marked the occasion with celebrations. c. To make conspicuous: a concert marking the composer's 60th birthday. 3. To set off or separate by or as if by a line or boundary: marked off the limits of our property. 4. To attach or affix identification, such as a price tag or maker's label, to. 5. To evaluate (academic work) according to a scale of letters or numbers; grade. 6a. To give attention to; notice: Mark her expression of discontent. Mark my words: they are asking for trouble. b. To take note of in writing; write down: marked the appointment on my calendar. c. Sports & Games To record (the score) in various games. 7. Sports To guard (an opponent), as in soccer. INTRANSITIVE VERB: 1. To make a visible impression: This pen will mark under water. 2. To receive a visible impression: The floor marks easily. 3. Sports & Games To keep score. 4. To determine academic grades: a teacher who marks strictly. 5. Archaic To pay attention; notice. PHRASAL VERBS: mark down To mark for sale at a lower price. mark up 1. To deface by covering with marks. 2. To mark for sale at a higher price. IDIOMS: beside the mark Beside the point; irrelevant. mark time 1. To move the feet alternately in the rhythm of a marching step without advancing. 2. To suspend progress for the time being; wait in readiness. 3. To function in an apathetic or ineffective manner. ETYMOLOGY: Middle English, from Old English mearc. See merg- in Appendix I. SYNONYMS: mark1, brand, label, tag1, ticket These verbs mean to place a mark of identification on: marked the items on the list with a check; brand cattle; labeled the boxes; tagged suitcases; ticketed the new merchandise. See also synonyms at sign.
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Mrs Brisbee - May 25, 2007 11:22 am (#141 of 257)
"decided to mark him rather than search for the snitch herself."
Interesting idea, Steve. Voldemort's dogged obsession with Harry is a bit like that.
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Steve Newton - May 28, 2007 3:50 pm (#142 of 257)
Sorry to take so long to do this. Life is insisting on interfering with my reading.
Chapter 15-The Quidditch Final
Hermione threatens Draco with her wand and then does nothing. I'm sure that she could have.
If I were Hermione I think that I would dial up an extra couple of hours of sleep now and again.
If Hermione had to use the time turner and only got 11 OWLS how did Percy and Crouch, Jr. manage to get 12 OWLS?
I'm not particularly impressed with Trelawney's prediction about losing someone forever.
"Wood was crouched over a model of a Quidditch field prodding little figures across it with his wand and muttering to himself." This sounds like what Dumbledore has been doing throughout the first 6 books.
Harry dreams that they had to use Neville instead. I'm still only 80% sure that Harry is the one to defeat Voldemort. I'm also still not very good at the dream scenes.
Draco makes the right play. Forego the penalty and he loses. Take the penalty and he still has a chance.
If Harry doesn't have the better broom he loses.
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Uncle Brad - May 28, 2007 7:04 pm (#143 of 257)
I also wondered about Hermione's 11 O.W.L.S. Her class schedule seems to me to be contrived to make sure we know the time turner works. J.K. R. has said that 12 is the maximum number of O.W.L.S. achievable, but the others seem to have managed without the use of the time turner. I also agree that Hermione would dial up some sleep time, but then again she was probably warned by McGonagall to use it only to make her classes, and being Hermione she wouldn't think of breaking THAT trust.
Hermione quits Divination and threatens and slaps Draco. I think this impressed Ron. I also think her apology to Ron was needed, I don't think that it was just the news of Buckbeak or Hermione's reaction to that news.
Just when was Charlie seeker? Acording to the timeline he was three years ahead of Percy. But if that is the case then he had to have missed playing his last year. Was he injured like Cho and others?
Hermione is even interested int he match. She cannot study. It is very unlike her. Snape wears GREEN to the match. Unlike the movies that always portray him in black.
Harry was lucky more than once in the match. he could have easily lost it all. Dreaming about facing the Slytherins on dragons seemed to me to forshadow the Hungarian Horntail in the next book a bit.
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journeymom - May 28, 2007 10:33 pm (#144 of 257)
Snape wears green in the book, and in Gof Harry's dress robes are 'bottle' green. Mrs Weasley chose the color because it matched his eyes.
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Mrs Brisbee - May 29, 2007 7:04 am (#145 of 257)
I would assume that if Hermione needed a Time Turner to get twelve OWLs, then so would Percy and Crouch, Jr. Has anyone tried doing up Hermione's schedule? At this point, I'm a bit confused about which classes conflict with which other classes.
Hermione misses Charms, but doesn't use the Time Turner to go back and take Charms. Why not? Is Charms not conflicting with another class, so she's not cleared to use the Time Turner for it?
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PatPat - May 29, 2007 6:07 pm (#146 of 257)
I also wonder about Hermione's 11 OWLS. When she turns the time turner back in, she says she can now have a "normal" schedule again, which makes me think that her schedule before was abnormal. So, how did Percy and Crouch Jr. get 12 OWLS without one? Technically we have no direct canon that they DIDN'T use one. So it's possible they did have a time turner.
I'm thinking Charms must not have conflicted with another class because Harry and Ron found Hermione asleep during that time, but apparently Charms is the only class she missed.
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Mrs Brisbee - May 30, 2007 5:26 am (#147 of 257)
Hermione's schedule is confusing. I wonder if Rowling actually wrote the schedule down. On the first day of school they had Divination in the morning, then Transfiguration, and Care of Magical Creatures in the afternoon. This seems to have been a Wednesday. On the day Hermione hit Draco, they had Care of Magical Creatures, then Charms, and then Divination in the afternoon. Perhaps this was a Monday? Then they had Potions on Thursday mornings, and DADA on Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday, and maybe on Monday too. According to Ron, Arithmancy sometimes falls at the same time as Care of Magical Creatures, so perhaps Hermione used the Time Turner for her two classes right before Charms, then forgot to go to Charms.
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Choices - May 30, 2007 9:22 am (#148 of 257)
There must be some strange connection between Harry and Neville that needs to be sorted out. There are too many hints about it. When Harry boards the Knight Bus he tells them his name is Neville Longbottom and then he also dreams of being replaced by Neville. Something is going on here!
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Steve Newton - May 30, 2007 9:44 am (#149 of 257)
Edited May 30, 2007 10:16 am
Connections between Harry and Neville.
The prophecy could have referred to either Harry or Neville
They were born a day apart
They both lost their parents to Voldemort or his minions
They are both Gryffindors
They have been to the Forbidden Forest together
They have each broken their right arms while on broomsticks
They have both dated Ginny
They have both been hit with the Tarantallegra spell (not sure of the spelling)
They can both see Thestrals
Snape hates both
I copied this from a post that I made on the Neville thread. I think that Neville has an immensely important role to play.
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Steve Newton - May 31, 2007 6:46 pm (#150 of 257)
Chapter 16-Professor Trelawney's Prediction
In a couple of books Hermione will be testy at exam time.
Harry seems to have put quite a bit of power into his cheering charm.
Lupin creates a swamp on the grounds. The twins do similarly in OOTP.
Handles all of the dark creatures.
Does Fudge recognize Ron as a Weasley?
Trelawney is not aware of her prophecies.
They hear 2 people cross the entrance hall while they hide. It is them. This is the sort of dirty trick that JKR seems to like.
"Swish and thud" seems to be quite different from Flitwick's "swish and flick" from ss/ps.
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Re: Harry Potter Book Read Along Thread - Prisoner of Azkaban
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Mrs Brisbee - Jun 1, 2007 6:17 am (#151 of 257)
Lupin creates a swamp on the grounds. The twins do similarly in OOTP.-- Steve Newton
I had missed that! So it seems the twins took an existing spell, and put it on an item to make their Portable Swamps.
They hear 2 people cross the entrance hall while they hide. It is them. This is the sort of dirty trick that JKR seems to like.
Time travel is already effecting their actions, it seems. They have to wait for themselves to clear out of the entrance hall before they can go down to Hagrid's. It probably only took about thirty seconds, though. Could they have done anything in those thirty extra seconds at Hagrid's hut that would have made a difference to how the story unfolds?
In other notes:
I think I agree with Uncle Brad that Hermione's schedule is contrived to clue us in to the Time Turner plotline. I can't think why the exams need to be scheduled at the same time otherwise.
In the DADA final, Hermione has a fear of failure. Ron is confused by the hinkypunk, which was giving misdirecting instructions. Does this mean that Ron's weakness is not trusting his own decisions?
Trelawney's prediction begins that evening, and will be fulfilled in about a year at Voldemort's rebirthing.
What chained Pettigrew? Not doing anything, not making a choice of action? He does finally choose to take action, and that's the only thing I see that can could mean he is unchained.
In the face of Hagrid's troubles, Harry yet again sets aside his own concerns.
Harry can't go get his invisibility cloak, but Hermione can. Harry can't afford to get into any more trouble. Because Hermione saves up her rules breaking for when it really matters, she can afford to take the chance.
Hermione offers to Hagrid that they stay with him. He sends them away so they won't get in trouble, and it's not something he thinks they should see. They are all looking out for each other.
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PatPat - Jun 1, 2007 1:24 pm (#152 of 257)
What chained Pettigrew? Not doing anything, not making a choice of action? He does finally choose to take action, and that's the only thing I see that can could mean he is unchained. Mrs Brisbee
Hmmm. Interesting point, Mrs. Brisbee. Could that prophecy have referred to someone other that Wormtail? (Who, I have no idea.) But this would be a classic JKR misdirection.
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journeymom - Jun 1, 2007 1:38 pm (#153 of 257)
We were supposed to think it referred to Sirius, chained in Azkaban, until we learned the truth about Peter. I kind of think we're done with that prophecy, I can't see it referring to anybody else now. Perhaps Peter was metaphorically 'chained'.
Hmm. Hmm.
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IT WILL HAPPEN TONIGHT. THE DARK LORD LIES ALONE AND FRIENDLESS, ABANDONED BY HIS FOLLOWERS. HIS SERVANT HAS BEEN CHAINED THESE TWELVE YEARS. TONIGHT, BEFORE MIDNIGHT... THE SERVANT WILL BREAK FREE AND SET OUT TO REJOIN HIS MASTER. THE DARK LORD WILL RISE AGAIN WITH HIS SERVANTS AID, GREATER AND MORE TERRIBLE THAN EVER HE WAS. TONIGHT... BEFORE MIDNIGHT...THE SERVANT...WILL SET OUT...TO REJOIN...HIS MASTER....
Chained these twelve years. It kind of seems as though Wormtail was in rat form for the entire 12 years Vapormort was gone. Was there something keeping him in his animagus form? Maybe it wasn't metaphorical but magical. Maybe we're not done with it and we'll learn something more about Wormtail's motivation? Or do you think he would have mentioned that right away, to plead his defense with Harry, that he was stuck in the form of Scabbers, that Voldemort had somehow 'chained' him that way.
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Uncle Brad - Jun 1, 2007 5:44 pm (#154 of 257)
Hermione is testy at exam time – nice play on words Steve. She seems to fill Percy’s role of prefect well in later books. I think her test schedule is another even more obvious clue for the time turner.
There was only one week scheduled for exams. In Harry’s fifth year there were two weeks scheduled for OWLS. Even Fred and George seem to be studying hard for their OWLS, although it didn’t seem to do them much good with only three each (were they in the same subject or did they split the course work between them?)
I missed the part about the swamp being created on the grounds. Good catch Steve.
Harry becomes a true seer, foretelling us of Buckbeaks TRUE fate. He also remains aware of what he has foretold. I seem to recall that Trewlawny starts to remember her first prediction a bit. Maybe she has to have a bit more practice at making REAL predictions before she will remember making them?
I also wondered how Peter was ‘chained’. Was it by his own fear? Does the prediction mean someone else? I know we were meant to think of Sirius, but he was already free. Crouch Jr. would have been a candidate, but he too was already out of Azkaban but would not be released from his father’s control until after the World Cup. I like Journymom’s thought on Wormtail being ‘chained’ in the form of Scabbers as a magical curse, it bears remembering.
I missed the swish & thud. I must go back and reread. I agree that the line about Harry & Hermione hearing themselves was a trick of JKR, a pretty good one at that.
Is Ron’s weakness not trusting his own actions or trusting others too much? Is there a difference?
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Steve Newton - Jun 1, 2007 7:58 pm (#155 of 257)
I was hoping that someone would pick up on the pun. I have my little vanities.
I also have wondered about the chaining but have come up with nothing other than Peter. Since he had access to a wand at the Burrow I wonder how chained he was.
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Soul Search - Jun 2, 2007 8:00 am (#156 of 257)
That "chained" doesn't quite fit with our current understanding. Yet, it does seem too late for more information to be useful. My best read is that Pettigrew was "chained" by his cowardice and "broke free" when he overheard Trelawney's prophecy.
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Mrs Brisbee - Jun 3, 2007 8:30 am (#157 of 257)
My best read is that Pettigrew was "chained" by his cowardice and "broke free" when he overheard Trelawney's prophecy.-- Soul Search
Pettigrew never overheard Trelawney prophecy, but I like "chained by his cowardice". He is unable to do anything for 12 years out of fear. Finally, he is discovered, and he must act because he has to. Yes, I think that fits.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jun 3, 2007 6:01 pm (#158 of 257)
The word chained I often thought reffered to a figurative rather than a literal binding because, his actions restuled in the deaths of the Potters, they also resulted in the disembodiment of and percieved death of Voldemort as well as the imprisionment of the Sirius Black.
Were it revealled that Pettigrew were still alive and well there are quite few pwople that would attempt to run him to ground and his life would be worthless.
In a sense some aspects of Pettigrew's character reminds me of Prometheus because, both were bound because of the course of action that they chose to take and each were released from their bonds through the efforts of a stronger character. In the case of Pettigrew he was released from his bondage because of Harry's mercy. Likewise, Heracles showed mercy towarrd Prometheus and freed him from his imprisonment.
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Mrs. Sirius - Jun 4, 2007 8:53 am (#159 of 257)
Pettigrew breaks free from fear. Remember he has many opportunities to learn that Sirius is free (he was losing weight and looking ratty for sometime now). Including for course, the night Sirius broke into the Gryffindor 's dorm and slashed Ron bedding.
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Choices - Jun 4, 2007 8:56 am (#160 of 257)
I always thought the "chained" part was sort of like saying, "Sorry, I'd like to help you, but my hands are tied." Your hands are not literally tied, but it just means you are powerless to help. I like the idea that Peter was "chained" by his fear - he was powerless without Voldemort to direct him. Peter's strength came from his association with Voldemort and with Voldemort gone, Peter could do nothing.
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Steve Newton - Jun 4, 2007 11:43 am (#161 of 257)
I looked up the definition of chain and didn't find any quirky obscure definitions which would allow for some maneuver room.
Anyway, on to Chapter 17-Cat, Rat and Dog
This is the chapter that hooked me. I had to read it 3 times before I figured out what was going on.
Harry and Hermione pull off the cloak and run and "it streamed behind them like a banner." Good image.
At one time I thought that Grindelwald's punishment was being turned into a tree and the Whomping Willow was such a grouch because he was still ticced.
Hermioine asks for help and Crookshanks does. mmmmmmmmmmmm
The 'bottlebrush tail' must be mentioned at least 10 time. I don't see anything meaningful about it.
Ron shows incredible bravery by standing beside Harry with a broken leg. For those keeping score Ron has now been hors de combat in 2 of the first 3 books. He will be again in book 5. (Out in books 1, 3, 5, and 7?)
Harry overcomes a powerful wizard without magic. Foreshadowing?
How smart is Crookshanks?
Like Draco in HBP, Harry cannot kill.
"Do it now said a voice in his head." The first occurrence of The Voice. It urges Harry to kill. It mellows out in later books. I don't recall any mentions in HBP. Is it Harry's conscience or a hint that there is more than one person home?
Lupin catches all three wands!
"Where is he, Sirius?" This is where I started losing it my first time.
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journeymom - Jun 4, 2007 1:34 pm (#162 of 257)
Yeah, there's a lot to parallel between Cat, Rat and Dog and the Lightening Struck Tower.
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Uncle Brad - Jun 4, 2007 6:02 pm (#163 of 257)
The invisibility cloak 'streamed behind them like a banner', but then how could anyone see it being invisible :~0
I wondered about Crookshanks helping Hermione too. He wants to protect Sirius, but he allows Harry & Hermioine into the willow. Since the plan was to get Pettegrew, why let them in at all? Or was Sirius's overall purpose to confront or meet Harry?
Sirius must be the size of a Great Dane to drag Ron around like that. I agree that Ron put up a great fight what with the broken leg. Sirius didn't take the kids serious enough, being beaten by them in a fight. It was much like the Death Eaters in book 5. Will that be Voldemort's downfall?
The mystery of Peter Pettigrew has been solved, but as has been mentioned earlier, why didn't Lupin notice the time turned kids on the map? It has to show the forest, otherwise Crouch Jr. would not have seen Crouch Sr. in book 4 to murder him.
As Defense teacher, I would have expected Lupin to master the Expellearmis spell to the point that the other wands would be catchable. No sense leaving them lying around for your enemy to pick up later.
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Mrs Brisbee - Jun 5, 2007 6:41 am (#164 of 257)
This is the chapter that hooked me. I had to read it 3 times before I figured out what was going on.-- Steve Newton
This is Rowling's plotting at its best. The positions change with mindboggling rapidity. Certainly this chapter and the next two are what make this book one of my favorites.
Hermioine asks for help and Crookshanks does. mmmmmmmmmmmm
I noticed that too. He is Hermione's pet cat/kneazle, so he is loyal to her, even though Sirius is his friend. I think Crookshanks is very intelligent, but still thinks like a cat: "The rat is caught! Let's get all my friends together with me in one room now-- purr, purr, purr."
Ron shows incredible bravery by standing beside Harry with a broken leg.
Ron's bravery seems to reach Sirius. Something flickers in Sirius's eyes. Sirius would have died for his friends, too. Ron's personality also stands in opposition to Pettigrew's.
Harry overcomes a powerful wizard without magic. Foreshadowing?
An excellent show of Muggle Dueling! Foreshadowing? Fred and George did make a point how handy it was to know certain Muggle things-- like lockpicking-- and Harry shows us he took their advice to heart at the beginning of PoA. I do think the handiness of the mundane will continue to be significant to the plot.
It is actually the Trio that takes out Sirius-- Harry's maneuver surprised Sirius, but it was Hermione and Ron joining the fray that meant the difference between winning and losing.
"Do it now said a voice in his head." The first occurrence of The Voice. It urges Harry to kill. It mellows out in later books. I don't recall any mentions in HBP. Is it Harry's conscience or a hint that there is more than one person home?
Thanks, Steve. I was going to ask you about that.
Yeah, there's a lot to parallel between Cat, Rat and Dog and the Lightening Struck Tower.-- journeymom
I know there was some discussion on one of the threads about the similarities and contrasts between the two events, but I can't remember where and when. Can you elaborate?
The mystery of Peter Pettigrew has been solved, but as has been mentioned earlier, why didn't Lupin notice the time turned kids on the map? It has to show the forest, otherwise Crouch Jr. would not have seen Crouch Sr. in book 4 to murder him.-- Uncle Brad
I didn't think the Map shows very far into the forest, if at all, because it was only supposed to show school grounds. But it is true that Barty Crouch Sr. seems to have only come to the edge of the forest, so it's a bit of a mystery. I don't think Lupin saw the time turned Harry and Hermione because he already had his eye on the Trio on the Map-- no need to go looking for them elsewhere. The dots are small, and the nametags accompanying the dots are in minuscule writing. It seems you have to be looking right at a dot and trying g to read who it belongs to in order to pick up the name. An odd name won't jump out at you unless you're looking right at it.
As Defense teacher, I would have expected Lupin to master the Expelliarmis spell to the point that the other wands would be catchable. No sense leaving them lying around for your enemy to pick up later.
Lupin's magical competence is impressive. I love how he's not flashy, just really, really good. I missed the first time I read that Sirius also does a perfect Expelliarmus, catching two wands-- and he spent 12 years in Azkaban and doesn't seem to have had a wand until he took Ron's!
I think I incorporated most of my notes into replies. So, just a couple of things:
"The cat, the rat, and Lovell the dog/ Rule all England under the hog" seems to be the playful inspiration for this chapter title but the cat, rat and dog of the rhyme (Catesby, Ratcliff, and Lovell) have nothing to do with the Harry Potter characters that I can think of. The writer of the rhyme was William Collingham. My American encyclopedias don't think him worth noting, so I'm going off memory here. Collingham was put to death by Richard III-- the "hog" of the rhyme because of his white boar emblem. Although popularly said to have suffered a traitor's death because of his satirical rhymes, Collingham was actually involved in more substantial plotting against the Crown.
"Nox" is the goddess of Darkness, who gave birth to Light. Anything there?
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Steve Newton - Jun 5, 2007 5:05 pm (#165 of 257)
Oops, I made a mistake. So much for depending on my memory. I found my file of voice references and see this from COS:
COS
Ch 11-The Dueling Club
“Ah, said a nasty little voice in his brain, but the Sorting Hat wanted to put you in Slytherin, don’t you remember?”
By GOF the voice is being helpful:
Ch 17 Beauxbatons and Durmstrang
Moody is doing the imperio curse.
“Why, though? Another voice had awoken in the back of his brain. Stupid thing to do, really, said the voice. Jump onto the desk…. No, I don’t think I will, thanks, said the other voice, a little more firmly…no, I don’t really want to….”
This is the one that makes me suspicious. "Another voice had awoken in the back of his brain."
I have at least 7 more references.
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Soul Search - Jun 5, 2007 5:37 pm (#166 of 257)
Steve Newton,
The "voice" references sound interesting. How about listing the references you have on a new topic so we can discuss them.
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Steve Newton - Jun 5, 2007 5:43 pm (#167 of 257)
Well, there was a thread with them and it died. Here are the others:
GOF
Ch 17 Beauxbatons and Durmstrang
Moody is doing the imperio curse.
“Why, though? Another voice had awoken in the back of his brain. Stupid thing to do, really, said the voice. Jump onto the desk…. No, I don’t think I will, thanks, said the other voice, a little more firmly…no, I don’t really want to….”
Ch 34 Prior Incantatem
Graveyard scene
"I asked you whether you want me to do that again," said Voldemort softly. "Answer me! Imperio" And Harry felt, for the third time in his life, the sensation that his mind had been wiped of all thought. . . . Ah, it was bliss, not to think, it was as though he were floating, dreaming ...just answer no ... say no ... just answer no. .. . I will not, said a stronger voice, in the back of his head, I won't answer. . . . Just answer no. . . . I won't do it, I won't say it. ... Just answer no. . . . "I WON'T!"
OOTP
Ch 1 Dudley Demented
But there was no happiness in him… the Dementor's icy fingers were closing on his throat -the high-pitched laughter was growing louder and louder, and a voice spoke inside his head: 'Bow to death, Harry…it might even be painless… I would not know … I have never died …" He was never going to see Ron and Hermione again -And their faces burst clearly into his mind as he fought for breath. 'EXPECTO PATRONUM!'
Ch 9-The Woes of Mrs Weasley
He had forgotten completely about prefects being chosen in the fifth year. He had been too anxious about the possibility of being expelled to spare a thought for the fact that badges must be winging their way towards certain people. But if he had remembered… if he had thought about it… what would he have expected? Not this, said a small and truthful voice inside his head. Harry screwed up his face and buried it in his hands. He could not lie to himself; if he had known the prefect badge was on its way, he would have expected it to come to him, not Ron. Did this make him as arrogant as Draco Malfoy? Did he think himself superior to everyone else? Did he really believe he was better than Ron? No, said the small voice defiantly. Was that true? Harry wondered, anxiously probing his own feelings. I'm better at Quidditch, said the voice. But I'm not better at anything else. That was definitely true, Harry thought; he was no better than Ron in lessons. But what about outside lessons? What about those adventures he, Ron and Hermione had had together since starting at Hogwarts, often risking much worse than expulsion? Well, Ron and Hermione were with me most of the time, said the voice in Harry's head. Not all the time, though, Harry argued with himself. They didn't fight Quirrell with me. They didn't take on Riddle and the Basilisk. They didn't get rid of all those Dementors the night Sirius escaped. They weren't in that graveyard with me, the night Voldemort returned…And the same feeling of ill-usage that had overwhelmed him on the night he had arrived rose again. I've definitely done more, Harry thought indignantly. I've done more than either of them! But maybe, said the small voice fairly, maybe Dumbledore doesn't choose prefects because they've got themselves into a load of dangerous situations… maybe he chooses them for other reasons… Ron must have something you don't… Harry opened his eyes and stared through his fingers at the wardrobe's clawed feet, remembering what Fred had said: 'No one in their right mind would make Ron a prefect…'
Ch Dumbledore’s Army
Talking to Dobby about a room
For a moment Harry was tempted to go with Dobby. He was halfway out of his seat, intending to hurry upstairs for his Invisibility Cloak when, not for the first time, a voice very much like Hermione's whispered in his ear: reckless. It was, after all, very late, he was exhausted, and had Snape's essay to finish.
Ch 24 Occlumency
No, said a voice inside Harry's head, as the memory of Cho drew nearer, you're not watching that, you're not watching it, it's private-
Ch 29 Career Advice
He felt as though the memory of it was eating him from inside. He had been so sure his parents were wonderful people that he had never had the slightest difficulty in disbelieving the aspersions Snape cast on his father's character. Hadn't people like Hagrid and Sirius told Harry how wonderful his father had been? (Yeah, well, look what Sirius was like himself, said a nagging voice inside Harry's head… he was as bad, wasn't he?) Yes, he had once overheard Professor McGonagall saying that his father and Sirius had been troublemakers at school, but she had described them as forerunners of the Weasley twins, and Harry could not imagine Fred and George dangling someone upside-down for the fun of it… not unless they really loathed them… perhaps Malfoy, or somebody who really deserved it…
Ch 32 Out of the Fire
Trying to see McGonagall
He wheeled around and strode blindly from the hospital wing into the teeming corridor where he stood, buffeted by the crowd, panic expanding inside him like poison gas so that his head swam and he could not think what to do… Ron and Hermione, said a voice in his head.
Ch 34 The Department of Mysteries
They passed row eighty-four… eighty-five… Harry was listening hard for the slightest sound of movement, but Sirius might be gagged now, or else unconscious… or, said an unbidden voice inside his head, he might already be dead…
Ch 38 The Second War Begins
Sirius didn't have his mirror on him when he went through the archway, said a small voice in Harry's head. That's why it's not working…
A couple sound superfluous such as the one from chapater 34 of GOF. Some are interesting. And the Dumbledore's Army chapter, where I seem to have omitted the chapter number, seems to obviously be a reminder of Hermione.
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Uncle Brad - Jun 5, 2007 7:53 pm (#168 of 257)
Lupin watched on the map as Harry, Ron and Hermione crossed the grounds in route to Hagrid's hut. He then watched them leave twenty minutes later with Pettigrew; I still think he should have noticed time turned Harry and Hermione leaving the castle before the trio left the supply closet. Any movement outside of the castle proper should have been noticed. But that brings up another matter, why didn't he notice Pettigrew in Hagrid's hut? One would think the map would show everyone there and a fifth person certainly would have been noticed. If he had, the whole thing in the shrieking shack might have been avoided since he could come down to Hagrids and confront Peter there. Too many loopholes for my non-magical mind to fill.
Steve - the voice Harry hears inside his head in Dudley Demented I always assumed to be Voldemort, gloating a bit upon Harry's impending death. Voldemort did the same thing with Harry''s dreams later on, trying to get him into the Ministry.
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Steve Newton - Jun 6, 2007 4:10 am (#169 of 257)
True, but since Voldemort didn't yet know of the connection it would suggest a horcrux or something else inside of Harry.
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Mrs Brisbee - Jun 7, 2007 7:29 pm (#170 of 257)
Steve, after reading through that list I'm a lot less skeptical of your Voice Within theory. It does seem to add up to an interesting pattern-- barring the nagging Hermione voice, of course . And brings up the point: Just what is a soulbit once it is detached from the main soul? The soulbit in the diary seemed to give the Tom Riddle memory adaptability-- the ability to take in new information and deviate from its program. The presumed soulbit in Nagini is supposed to do what exactly? Ack, I can't remember what Dumbledore said in HBP. Something about Voldemort having extraordinary control over her? If a soulbit is in Harry, just how much of a presence would it have when the connection between it and Voldemort isn't "live"? It's an interesting question. Hmmm.
One other thing I wanted to note about this chapter: Lupin embraces Sirius "like a brother". This ties into the family theme.
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Steve Newton - Jun 8, 2007 10:23 am (#171 of 257)
Mrs. B, I do think that there is something going on. I fought the Harry/Horcrux theory for a while but it is the way I am thinking now. I can't come up with any other explanation except for some wild ones. There were several souls rattling around that night. Could James or Lily be in there? It doesn't work for me.
Chapter 18-Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, and Prongs
I guess that if Dumbledore is an animagus he registered last century.
We've met quite a few unregistered animagi. I would guess that we will meet 1 or 2 more.
I do not know how the Wolfsbane Potion works. Does it have to be taken everyday in the week before the full moon?
It took the marauders about 2 years to figure out Lupin's secret.
I do not think that Snape was jealous of James' talent on the Quidditch field. He could have been jealous of something else.
Sirius' sense of humor is a tad over the top. Sending someone into a deadly situation would not strike me as funny.
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Mrs Brisbee - Jun 8, 2007 10:41 am (#172 of 257)
I've a full slate today and tomorrow, so my notes will have to wait, but a few quick comments:
I do not think that Snape was jealous of James' talent on the Quidditch field. He could have been jealous of something else.
Sirius' sense of humor is a tad over the top. Sending someone into a deadly situation would not strike me as funny.-- Steve Newton
I've got to agree that there is more going on here than we've been told. Lupin's comment seems to be boiling it down to the most facile. Snape does seem to harbor some jealousy, not so much for James's talents but for the fame that came with it. But Sirius's "joke" was beyond the pale. We've gotten some notion for why Snape hates the Marauders, but why does Sirius hate Snape so much? Something that we haven't been told yet? Or is it as simple as Snape always sneaking around trying to get them expelled, and Sirius still suffering from a serious case of arrested development? I can't see why Snape would think he owed James a life debt--or anything else-- over the "prank" when he thinks James and Lupin were in on it too. There's got to be a few pieces missing to this puzzle.
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Mrs Brisbee - Jun 10, 2007 5:07 am (#173 of 257)
A few notes on Chapter 18, "Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, and Prongs":
Lupin insists that he and Sirius explain what is going on. Lupin explains the past, starting with his being bitten by a werewolf when a child. The present cannot be understood without knowing the past. Sometimes it is hard to see how it all connects together until the tale is done.
The trio still trusts Lupin enough to listen to him, and ask him questions.
For Lupin, the Shrieking Shack is a miserable place, that kept him safe. A necessary prison. I can see a parallel with the Dursley house for Harry.
When Lupin mentions Snape, it makes Sirius take his eyes off Scabbers. Snape is adding up to more than a boyhood nemesis if he is that distracting!
We are told that Snape especially didn't like James. In "Snape's Worst Memory", OotP, James attacks Snape to entertain Sirius. Is Sirius the leader of the Hate Snape movement, and why?
Snape picks Lupin to cover with his wand, not Sirius. Lupin still has his wand, though not in hand. He's also could turn into a werewolf at any moment. I think the werewolf thing really bothers Snape. In PS/SS, Snape was teaching his first years how to treat werewolf bites. Makes me wonder why Snape would want to be in an organization with Fenrir Greyback in it.
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Steve Newton - Jun 10, 2007 5:47 am (#174 of 257)
Mrs. B you said "For Lupin, the Shrieking Shack is a miserable place, that kept him safe. A necessary prison. I can see a parallel with the Dursley house for Harry." Good catch.
Snape did cover Lupin. Something I had noticed before but did not notice on this reread is that Lupin is decisive and deadly. In a few moments of conversation he discards his previous beliefs, recognizes Peter's guilt, and is ready to kill. A man to respect as Michael Corleone might say.
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Choices - Jun 10, 2007 9:57 am (#175 of 257)
Mrs. Brisbee - "Makes me wonder why Snape would want to be in an organization with Fenrir Greyback in it."
Perhaps Fenrir had not joined Voldemort when Snape joined the DE's years ago. Now, Snape is (I believe) a spy for Dumbledore in the DE's and he must do his job regardless of who he has to associate with in Voldemort's gang.
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journeymom - Jun 10, 2007 3:04 pm (#176 of 257)
And don't forget, even Greyback was 'cowed' by Snape's presence on the Tower.
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Uncle Brad - Jun 10, 2007 4:57 pm (#177 of 257)
Snape may have picked up a bit of knowledge over the years about the best ways to deal with werewolves. Both how to treat them and their bites, as well as how to dispose of them if needed. All brought on by his encounter with Lupin as a student. Thus he has the knowledge to help Lupin with the wolfsbane potion and to earn the respect or fear of Fenrir.
In chapter 18 Sirius seems a bit crazy - somewhat over the top even for a recent Azkaban prisoner. That is until Lupin mentions Harry, which seems to calm him considerably. he really does seem to hold a grudge against Snape as well, long after he should have gotten over the school yard issues.
Poor Ron's broken leg sure does take a beating. Amazing he stayed conscious, but then again Wizards seem to be made of sterner stuff...
Hermione resorts to logic, both to calm herself as well as to get to the bottom of things. Always her strong suit.
"In those days there was no cure..." Is there a cure now or are they talking of the wolfsbane potion?
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journeymom - Jun 10, 2007 8:20 pm (#178 of 257)
Good point, Uncle Brad. I wonder if JKR misstated. The Lexicon says, While this potion doesn't cure lycanthropy, it does prevent the extremely dangerous dementia which would otherwise accompany the transformation from human into werewolf.
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Mrs Brisbee - Jun 11, 2007 6:45 am (#179 of 257)
Perhaps Fenrir had not joined Voldemort when Snape joined the DE's years ago.-- Choices
A fair point. I doubt Snape would have known the Death Eaters' exact roster until after he'd joined. We know that Fenrir was biting people as early as Lupin's childhood, but we don't when Fenrir joined forces with Voldemort.
And don't forget, even Greyback was 'cowed' by Snape's presence on the Tower.-- Journeymom
An interesting point. I think Snape fears werewolves, but if so he never showed that fear to Fenrir. Instead, Fenrir is intimidated by Snape.
In chapter 18 Sirius seems a bit crazy - somewhat over the top even for a recent Azkaban prisoner. That is until Lupin mentions Harry, which seems to calm him considerably. he really does seem to hold a grudge against Snape as well, long after he should have gotten over the school yard issues.-- Uncle Brad
Don't most long term Azkaban prisoners go insane or die? Bellatrix and Barty Crouch, Jr., both strike me as being a few bricks shy of a load-- but of course they could have started that way too. Sirius spent 12 years with only the thought of his innocence keeping him sane. I think those years kind of trained him into tunnel vision, so he keeps this single minded determination to Get Peter Pettigrew no matter what.
While in Azkaban, Sirius must have also been dwelling on whatever bad memories involving Snape he had also. Why else would the mention of Snape's name cause Sirius to look away from the rat who had betrayed Lily and James? But I can't imagine why Sirius finds his school days grudge so important. His deadly "prank" happened years before his stint in Azkaban. Either Sirius started out as murderously unhinged, or there was more going on back then than we've been told as of yet.
Hermione resorts to logic, both to calm herself as well as to get to the bottom of things. Always her strong suit.
Oh, you are so right. Hermione is ever so wonderfully Hermione in this chapter!
Something I had noticed before but did not notice on this reread is that Lupin is decisive and deadly. In a few moments of conversation he discards his previous beliefs, recognizes Peter's guilt, and is ready to kill. A man to respect as Michael Corleone might say.-- Steve
I want Lupin on my team . I think Lupin is a great character, because we get to see how he thinks and how he grows in these chapters. He shows his strengths of competence, quickness, and intelligence; he admits his flaws here- his paralyzing fear of losing his friends-- and we see that he hasn't been so decisive up to this point. The revelation of Peter Pettigrew seems to have "unchained" all the former Marauders. Sirius saw Pettigrew's picture as Scabbers, and he resolves to take action and escape prison. Lupin sees Pettigrew's name on the Map, and things fall in place and he springs into action. Pettigrew's cover is blown, and after 12 years of hiding he makes his choice to return to Voldemort.
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Uncle Brad - Jun 11, 2007 6:35 pm (#180 of 257)
I agree Mrs. Brisbee - Lupin on your team would make a stronger team when the chips are down. He doesn't hesitate to throw away 12 years of beliefs because of just one new fact. He is finally acting, standing for what he believes is right, and I think even Snape recognizes the true power in the room when he points his wand at Lupin. I think that Snape realises that disarming and imobilizing Lupin is as far as he can really go with witnesses, while killing Sirius would probably be looked on by most as necessary. More on that thought with the next chapter...
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TwinklingBlueEyes - Jun 12, 2007 9:30 am (#181 of 257)
“All children are gifted. Some just open their presents later than others.”
ANONYMOUS
Interesting that Lupin makes the decision in a heartbeat, but we have covered Lupin being a late bloomer long ago. Many don't mature till later, and some never do. Lupins "growing" in this scene is very tale-tell of Harry's growing, don't you think?
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journeymom - Jun 12, 2007 9:45 am (#182 of 257)
TBE, that's a neat saying.
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Steve Newton - Jun 13, 2007 5:25 pm (#183 of 257)
Chapter 19=The Servant of Lord Voldemort
We know that Snape knew about the Shack and probably how to get in, did he use if for anything? He seems to be almost out of control. This is not the skilled occlumens who deals with Voldemort.
Its not a surprise that Harry attacked Snape but it is a surprise that Ron, and especially, Hermione did.
I still don't know how Peter killed a dozen people with one spell. From behind his back. I don't think that we have seen anything that can do that.
Having Scabbers transform after the better part of 3 books is almost playing dirty. I guess his not turning yellow in the first book was a clue.
Watery eyes have gotten several mentions in the book. I guess that the alchemy folks have covered this.
Somebody had already escaped from Azkaban, Crouch. Anybody else?
Black says Voldemort.
Peter is actually pretty good at picking up on points for his defense.
Peter says Voldemort.
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Mrs Brisbee - Jun 14, 2007 6:52 am (#184 of 257)
I still don't know how Peter killed a dozen people with one spell. From behind his back. I don't think that we have seen anything that can do that.--Steve Newton
Maybe the Muggle-worthy excuse was close to the mark, and there actually was a gas explosion. I think Peter planned his "death" carefully. He had hours to put it all together before he let Sirius find him. At the beginning of the book we had Wendolin the Weird, who purposely let herself be captured and used a simple spell to protect herself from harm. I think Peter did this on a grander scale. He chose a crowded street for two reasons: one was so that many Muggles would be between himself and Sirius, thus delaying any action Sirius could have taken against him; the second was for collateral damage, so there would be incontestable murder victims and witnesses when Sirius was hauled off to prison. Peter made sure he knew right where the sewer and gas main were. Then I think Peter used magic to protect himself from fire and shrapnel, cut off his finger, and when Sirius showed up said his piece then used the wand behind his back to blast open the street, cracking open the sewer for his escape and causing the explosion from the gas line.
Having Scabbers transform after the better part of 3 books is almost playing dirty. I guess his not turning yellow in the first book was a clue.
George's spell to turn fat rats yellow doesn't sound like the other spell incantations we know, so I've always been inclined to agree with Ron that the spell was a dud. I can't really think of any clues from the first two books that there was anything odd about Scabbers, so I understand what you mean about "playing dirty". Scabbers does act odd all through PoA, though, to make up for it. But I never would have guessed that Scabbers was actually an Animagus.
Black says Voldemort.
Peter says Voldemort.
I'd missed that part about Peter saying the name. So all the remaining Marauders will speak Voldemort's name.
In other notes:
Snape is feeling very triumphant at catching Sirius. it's a "me" moment: "lucky for me", "How I hoped I would be the one..."
Snape's motives are personal.
Sirius and Snape show equal hatred for each other. What's the story there? We've seen why Snape would personally hate the Marauders, but not why Sirius would have such a personal hatred of Snape.
Snape thinks werewolf is an indictment, putting out being in the company of a werewolf in the same league as hanging out with convicted murderers (Side nitpicky note that Sirius wasn't actually convicted; I think Rowling must have altered the story a little in GoF). Earlier, we saw that Hermione was covering for Lupin, but "werewolf" was one of the first things she threw out there to prove he was evil. "Werewolf" was enough to turn Ron from Lupin-- for a few minutes, anyway. They all listened to Lupin's tale, including Snape. Snape seems to be the only one whose opinion of werewolves didn't shift from the tale.
It is Snape's threats against Lupin that cause Harry to act, and Ron and Hermione to join him.
Sirius thinks he could have taken Snape, even with a wand pointed right at him. Yep, a few bricks shy.
I bet Peter didn't find this reassuring: "No one's going to try and kill you until we've sorted a few things out," said Lupin. One of those darkly humorous lines. I also always get a laugh at Peter's "far-fetched" and "lunacy" while defending himself from the accusations of the Animagus dog and the werewolf. Great wordplay there.
Did Voldemort's supporters in Azkaban know that Peter was the spy? I suppose Bellatrix must have known that Sirius wasn't the real spy, at any rate.
Sirius thought Lupin had been the spy until Peter's betrayal. That was why Lupin wasn't informed about the Secret Keeper switch. Why was Lupin suspect? Lupin thought Sirius was the spy after Godrics Hollow. Lupin and Sirius forgive each other, just like that.
Sirius and Lupin seem to view this as a family affair, like it's their responsibility to take care of it. When Harry steps in, Sirius declares that only Harry has the right to decide for mercy.
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Choices - Jun 14, 2007 10:36 am (#185 of 257)
It is still odd to me that we learn what Sirius has been doing for 12 years - sitting in Azkaban, what Peter has been doing - being a rat and living with the Weasleys, but we do not yet have any idea what Lupin did or where he was during those 12 years. Is this significant?
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Uncle Brad - Jun 14, 2007 6:53 pm (#186 of 257)
If any chapter of any book shows Snape on the side of evil, I think this one is it. He is not trying to protect Harry, he is seeking revenge for torment in school years ago. I believe he is even more unhinged than Sirius at the moment. Since nothing really involves Harry, he can show his true feelings and they are not happy thoughts.
I agree it was a surprise that Hermione added her spell to the collective 'expellearmis' against Snape. I think it even surprised her 'we attacked a teacher' she whimpered...
I believe Peter set it up to cause a lot of damage with a Reducto charm. The blast and resulting fragments is what killed the Muggles. I agree with Mrs. B about having it out in a crowd both for victims and witnesses. Peter is indeed sharp enough to plan that, not to mention the whole betrayal.
I think Lupin was suspect because of his werewolf status. They knew they had a spy, so EVERYONE is a suspect unless proven otherwise. Once James was killed, Sirius was the chief suspect because he was suppose to be the secret keeper. Unfortunately he had no chance to prove his innocence.
I too wonder what Lupin had done for the past 12 years.
"telling Voldemort you could hand him the Potters." and "...ready to strike at the moment he could be sure of allies... and to deliver the last Potter to them..." I have always wondered at these phrases. It seems as if Voldemort wanted James and Harry dead for whatever reason. I do not think it was because James was working for the Order. Since Voldemort didn't care if Lily lived or died, i can only think it is a blood-line issue with "the last of the Potters" comment. Any insight?
Harry stops them from killing Peter, and even Lupin is startled by the gesture.
And Crookshanks bottlebrush tail held jauntily high as he led the parade out of the shack. At least one being in the shack seemed happy in the end.
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Steve Newton - Jun 15, 2007 4:30 am (#187 of 257)
Brad, I agree that the Potters were targeted and their heritage would seem to be the reason. Unless they are descendants of one of the founders, or Merlin I guess, I can't see any other reason.
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Mrs Brisbee - Jun 15, 2007 6:40 am (#188 of 257)
Could the Potters be descendants of Ravenclaw? I don't know that the founders will figure into it at all, but it's something to speculate about. Voldemort must have found out something significant about Harry to make him decide that Harry was absolutely the one whose murder should be used to make that last Horcrux.
If any chapter of any book shows Snape on the side of evil, I think this one is it. He is not trying to protect Harry, he is seeking revenge for torment in school years ago. I believe he is even more unhinged than Sirius at the moment. Since nothing really involves Harry, he can show his true feelings and they are not happy thoughts.-- Uncle Brad
Interesting take on Snape. I concluded in this book that Snape was working for the right side, but for purely selfish reasons. Selfishness is also one of the great traits of evil so I can see why you say that. I've always assumed that the characters do reveal to us their true thoughts and feelings from time to time, and I do think that's what Snape is doing now.
Snape's outburst is the bedrock for many of my conclusions about Snape: "Like father, like son, Potter! I have just saved your neck; you should be thanking me on bended knee! You would have been well served if he had killed you! You'd have died like your father, too arrogant to believe you might be mistaken in Black-- now get out of the way, or I will make you..." I know it has been discussed to death on other threads, but the "like father, like son" comment sounds like Snape has reason to believe that James owed him thanks. This has been built into the reasonable theory that it was Snape who warned Dumbledore that there was a spy close to the Potters and that Voldemort had decided to target the Potters for death because of the Prophecy. Snape seems to get really ticked off when he doesn't get the accolades he feels he deserves. I've been operating on the assumption that Snape wants redemption for his past actions, and he desperately wants that acknowledgment that will tell him that he's all done now and off the hook. His quest for redemption is very self-centered, and he gets irked when people won't cooperate to give him what he wants.
There is also a disconnect between what Dumbledore said about how Snape feels and what Snape tells us about how he feels. Dumbledore told us that James saved Snape's life, and Snape was working hard to protect Harry because he felt he owed a debt to James. Snape tells us that he thinks all the Marauders were in on the "prank" and James got cold feet and stopped it so he and his friends wouldn't get in trouble. If Snape honestly thinks James was in on the prank, I can't see him thinking he owed James a thing. The other disconnect I see is the trustworthiness of Snape's motives. If the motives are selfish, they will always revolve around what serves Snape. That might make Snape predictable, but it is not the same as trustworthy.
Contrasting Snape's desire for revenge is Harry. Harry was advised by Arthur at the beginning of school to not seek out Sirius Black. Draco tried to goad him into it. Once Harry found out what the deal was, both Ron and Hermione tell him not to go looking for Black. Harry is angry and hurt, but his desire for revenge evaporates in the face of his friends' troubles. Even with the danger of Sirius Black lurking over him, Harry moves on to other things. He doesn't even think of revenge again until Sirius Black has the trio cornered and it seems his murder is imminent. But once the trio have turned the tables and captured Sirius, Harry finds himself unable to act on his desire for revenge. And it turns out the same when Pettigrew is exposed as the real betrayer, and Harry steps in to stop Pettigrew from being killed. He doesn't want Sirius and Lupin to become murderers. Again he finds more important things than revenge.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jun 15, 2007 9:24 pm (#189 of 257)
Greyback was not incarcerated in Azkaban during the period of Voldemort's absence, although he may have kept a low profile. I think Remus could have been working within community to counteract the efforts of Greyback and the werwolves allied with him. I can see him as a quiet crusader against likes of Greyback and Umbridge.
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Mrs Brisbee - Jun 16, 2007 6:15 am (#190 of 257)
Lupin does have a winning personality that could be an asset on such missions. He got everyone (except Snape) in the Shrieking Shack to calm down and talk things out.
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Steve Newton - Jun 18, 2007 11:43 am (#191 of 257)
Chapter 20-The Dementor's Kiss
I don't think that Dumbledore would have let Harry live at Sirius'. This would take him from the protection at the Dursley's. (Brain glitch. I can't remember the address. 20 something?)
The Round Pink Spider has done a lot of research on Norse mythology. One of the images is of the Hanged Man and Snape is a good representation here. I don't remember the import. (See paragraph above.) Something do do with Odin I think.
Harry won't leave his friends in danger.
Was it necessary for Peter to stun (or whatever he did) Ron?
I think that the Dementors affect Sirius extra hard since he now has good thoughts of Harry which they can feast on. (There might be a real sentence in there somewhere.)
"He was alone...completely alone...." I suspect that this might foreshadow the climax of DH.
The Dementor goes for Harry first, no Sirius, the escaped prisoner.
JKR has used the "strangely familiar" gambit a couple of times. The only one not so far explained is the proprietor of the Hogs Head who must be Aberforth.
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Choices - Jun 18, 2007 1:24 pm (#192 of 257)
".....One of the images is of the Hanged Man"
Interesting - the Hanged Man is the name of the pub in Little Hangleton (or is it Greater Hangleton?) where the maid went to discuss the murders of the Riddles.
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Uncle Brad - Jun 18, 2007 6:08 pm (#193 of 257)
Mrs. B. I don't think anything would have calmed Snape down other than a few well placed curses (which seemed to work for Harry & company). I doubt that Lupin had been working with the werewolf community before this book. I suspect he just had the odd job or two courtesy of friends. His familiarty in Defense against the Dark Arts suggests he might have had something to do with that. Possibly as a vagabond curse breaker.
Steve - I tend to agree that Dumbledore would not have looked kindly on Harry living with Sirius, but I think he might have come up with something to help protect Harry, possibly doing the one week at #4 to reset the spells and the rest of the time at friends (or Sirius's).
I don't think it was necessary for Peter to stun Ron other that to make sure he didn't interfere with the transformation (wandless magic to transform?) I think some of the spell came from having to be a rat for 12 years and he gave Ron a bit of pay-back for a year's worth of rat tonic. I think stunning Crookshanks was another bit of pay-back combined with need.
I agree that the dementors have somthing to feast on with Sirius. As far as the dementors going after Harry, they did that at the beginning of the book too. They ignored everyone in the car but seemed to go after Harry in particular. Possibly it has something to do with the 'Harry is a Horcrux' theory and they are really going after the Voldemort soul-bit.
As far as Harry and the dementor, he has now survived the killing curse and can accuratly describe what a dementor's face looks like. Two things no wizard ever did before.
The question I always had was why didn't Lupin change with the rising moon instead of when it just appeared out from behind a cloud. It can't be because he has to see moonlight, because then he could just lock himself in the dungeon to prevent transformation.
As far as something mentioned earlier. We now have the chains that Peter freed himself from to escape and return to the Dark Lord. Amazing how that tidbit got overlooked when we were discussing it earlier.
I'll have to check out the Norse mythology bit.
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journeymom - Jun 18, 2007 7:59 pm (#194 of 257)
Odin was hanged from the "World Tree", for 9 days, and he gained wisdom. I think he learned how to read runes, or he invented them or something, after his experience on the tree. Also, men were hanged from trees in sacrifice to Odin, so he was called the god of the hanged.
"The Hanged Man" is the name of a tarot card, like "The Lightening Struck Tower" is. The Hanged Man was called "The Traitor" in older cards. I can imagine that if the Hanged Man pub had been portrayed in the movie, the sign would have shown a man hanging upside down. Weren't traitors in Christian tradition hanged upside down?
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Pamzter - Jun 18, 2007 8:33 pm (#195 of 257)
Tradition holds that when Jesus' disciple Peter was martyred by crucifixion, he requested to be crucified upside down because he did not feel worthy to die in the same manner as his master. The only person in scripture specifically identified as a traitor was Judas Iscariot. He was overcome by remorse and committed suicide.
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Mrs Brisbee - Jun 19, 2007 4:24 am (#196 of 257)
The question I always had was why didn't Lupin change with the rising moon instead of when it just appeared out from behind a cloud. It can't be because he has to see moonlight, because then he could just lock himself in the dungeon to prevent transformation.-- Uncle Brad
Perhaps it's when the moonlight strikes the earth that is the trigger. Yeah, I know, a lame explanation, but how many werewolf movies have we all seen where the clouds suddenly part over the moon and the guy transforms into the monster? I bet a lot of werewolves move to Seattle because of the overcast skies. That would explain all the coffee houses, too, because of the late hours they keep they need the caffeine. Anyway, the moonlight striking the earth would make werewolves even more dangerous because of the unpredictability of the change in weather. Rowling did provide an explanation once in an interview, didn't she? But I think she said that the moon wasn't up yet, though obviously it was.
Edit: Here's the quote from the Scholastic interview, Oct. 16, 2000:
Q: Can you explain how Lupin turns into a werewolf, since he didn't turn in the Shrieking Shack in Prisoner of Azkaban, but instead he turned only when the full moonlight hit him outside the tunnel? If he only turned into a wolf in the moonlight, why didn't he just stay inside? Did it have to do with the potion? Or was the moon not up yet?
Rowling: The moon wasn't up when he entered the Shrieking Shack.
The Dementor goes for Harry first, no Sirius, the escaped prisoner.-- Steve Newton
I was very proud of my seven-year-old daughter for spotting this, too. We've been listening to the audiobooks in the car. She has informed me that their are two things she wants to know more about: What happened at Godrics Hollow, and why those "weird dementors" would go after a 13-year-old boy instead of the man they were supposed too.
I think too it is the Harry Is A Horcrux theory. His soul is just richer in calories because of the extra soulbit.
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Steve Newton - Jun 19, 2007 4:25 am (#197 of 257)
Brad, good catch on the chains. I have missed that and I have read or listened to this book at least 10 times.
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Mrs Brisbee - Jun 19, 2007 8:30 am (#198 of 257)
I also agree that Dumbledore wouldn't have wanted Harry to go live with Sirius. As things turned out, with Sirius still on the run, Dumbledore was able to continue controlling Harry's life. Had Sirius been cleared of all charges and been able to assume his godfather role, I don't think Dumbledore would have been able to do whatever he wanted with Harry without telling Sirius what was going on. Dumbledore likes to hoard information, and Sirius doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who just blindly follows someone's orders because they say so.
Something else I've been wondering about is how Sirius became Lily's best friend. I've always wondered why Lily had no friends of her own, but maybe I've been asking the wrong question. Why was Sirius her best friend?
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Choices - Jun 19, 2007 8:52 am (#199 of 257)
Where does it say that Sirius was Lily's best friend? I thought he was James' best friend. Now I'm confunded.....not that I wasn't before. LOL
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Mrs Brisbee - Jun 19, 2007 9:02 am (#200 of 257)
Harry repeatedly refers to Sirius as his parents' best friend. Certainly Harry could be jumping to conclusions, but Lily seems to have been perfectly happy with Sirius being her child's godfather, and did not bother to pick one of her friends to be godmother. In fact, Rowling has said that if Sirius had been married then his wife would have been godmother-- so even a hypothetical bride of Sirius would have been better than any of Lily's friends. Lily also seemed fine with Sirius as Secret Keeper. Only James's friends seem to have been considered, there doesn't seem to be anyone whom Lily wanted to put forward for the job. We don't have any evidence that Lily had friends as an adult beyond James's friends. So Harry's assumption does have merit. But, why? What is it that makes Lily think so highly of Sirius?
Mrs Brisbee - Jun 1, 2007 6:17 am (#151 of 257)
Lupin creates a swamp on the grounds. The twins do similarly in OOTP.-- Steve Newton
I had missed that! So it seems the twins took an existing spell, and put it on an item to make their Portable Swamps.
They hear 2 people cross the entrance hall while they hide. It is them. This is the sort of dirty trick that JKR seems to like.
Time travel is already effecting their actions, it seems. They have to wait for themselves to clear out of the entrance hall before they can go down to Hagrid's. It probably only took about thirty seconds, though. Could they have done anything in those thirty extra seconds at Hagrid's hut that would have made a difference to how the story unfolds?
In other notes:
I think I agree with Uncle Brad that Hermione's schedule is contrived to clue us in to the Time Turner plotline. I can't think why the exams need to be scheduled at the same time otherwise.
In the DADA final, Hermione has a fear of failure. Ron is confused by the hinkypunk, which was giving misdirecting instructions. Does this mean that Ron's weakness is not trusting his own decisions?
Trelawney's prediction begins that evening, and will be fulfilled in about a year at Voldemort's rebirthing.
What chained Pettigrew? Not doing anything, not making a choice of action? He does finally choose to take action, and that's the only thing I see that can could mean he is unchained.
In the face of Hagrid's troubles, Harry yet again sets aside his own concerns.
Harry can't go get his invisibility cloak, but Hermione can. Harry can't afford to get into any more trouble. Because Hermione saves up her rules breaking for when it really matters, she can afford to take the chance.
Hermione offers to Hagrid that they stay with him. He sends them away so they won't get in trouble, and it's not something he thinks they should see. They are all looking out for each other.
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PatPat - Jun 1, 2007 1:24 pm (#152 of 257)
What chained Pettigrew? Not doing anything, not making a choice of action? He does finally choose to take action, and that's the only thing I see that can could mean he is unchained. Mrs Brisbee
Hmmm. Interesting point, Mrs. Brisbee. Could that prophecy have referred to someone other that Wormtail? (Who, I have no idea.) But this would be a classic JKR misdirection.
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journeymom - Jun 1, 2007 1:38 pm (#153 of 257)
We were supposed to think it referred to Sirius, chained in Azkaban, until we learned the truth about Peter. I kind of think we're done with that prophecy, I can't see it referring to anybody else now. Perhaps Peter was metaphorically 'chained'.
Hmm. Hmm.
================
IT WILL HAPPEN TONIGHT. THE DARK LORD LIES ALONE AND FRIENDLESS, ABANDONED BY HIS FOLLOWERS. HIS SERVANT HAS BEEN CHAINED THESE TWELVE YEARS. TONIGHT, BEFORE MIDNIGHT... THE SERVANT WILL BREAK FREE AND SET OUT TO REJOIN HIS MASTER. THE DARK LORD WILL RISE AGAIN WITH HIS SERVANTS AID, GREATER AND MORE TERRIBLE THAN EVER HE WAS. TONIGHT... BEFORE MIDNIGHT...THE SERVANT...WILL SET OUT...TO REJOIN...HIS MASTER....
Chained these twelve years. It kind of seems as though Wormtail was in rat form for the entire 12 years Vapormort was gone. Was there something keeping him in his animagus form? Maybe it wasn't metaphorical but magical. Maybe we're not done with it and we'll learn something more about Wormtail's motivation? Or do you think he would have mentioned that right away, to plead his defense with Harry, that he was stuck in the form of Scabbers, that Voldemort had somehow 'chained' him that way.
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Uncle Brad - Jun 1, 2007 5:44 pm (#154 of 257)
Hermione is testy at exam time – nice play on words Steve. She seems to fill Percy’s role of prefect well in later books. I think her test schedule is another even more obvious clue for the time turner.
There was only one week scheduled for exams. In Harry’s fifth year there were two weeks scheduled for OWLS. Even Fred and George seem to be studying hard for their OWLS, although it didn’t seem to do them much good with only three each (were they in the same subject or did they split the course work between them?)
I missed the part about the swamp being created on the grounds. Good catch Steve.
Harry becomes a true seer, foretelling us of Buckbeaks TRUE fate. He also remains aware of what he has foretold. I seem to recall that Trewlawny starts to remember her first prediction a bit. Maybe she has to have a bit more practice at making REAL predictions before she will remember making them?
I also wondered how Peter was ‘chained’. Was it by his own fear? Does the prediction mean someone else? I know we were meant to think of Sirius, but he was already free. Crouch Jr. would have been a candidate, but he too was already out of Azkaban but would not be released from his father’s control until after the World Cup. I like Journymom’s thought on Wormtail being ‘chained’ in the form of Scabbers as a magical curse, it bears remembering.
I missed the swish & thud. I must go back and reread. I agree that the line about Harry & Hermione hearing themselves was a trick of JKR, a pretty good one at that.
Is Ron’s weakness not trusting his own actions or trusting others too much? Is there a difference?
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Steve Newton - Jun 1, 2007 7:58 pm (#155 of 257)
I was hoping that someone would pick up on the pun. I have my little vanities.
I also have wondered about the chaining but have come up with nothing other than Peter. Since he had access to a wand at the Burrow I wonder how chained he was.
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Soul Search - Jun 2, 2007 8:00 am (#156 of 257)
That "chained" doesn't quite fit with our current understanding. Yet, it does seem too late for more information to be useful. My best read is that Pettigrew was "chained" by his cowardice and "broke free" when he overheard Trelawney's prophecy.
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Mrs Brisbee - Jun 3, 2007 8:30 am (#157 of 257)
My best read is that Pettigrew was "chained" by his cowardice and "broke free" when he overheard Trelawney's prophecy.-- Soul Search
Pettigrew never overheard Trelawney prophecy, but I like "chained by his cowardice". He is unable to do anything for 12 years out of fear. Finally, he is discovered, and he must act because he has to. Yes, I think that fits.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jun 3, 2007 6:01 pm (#158 of 257)
The word chained I often thought reffered to a figurative rather than a literal binding because, his actions restuled in the deaths of the Potters, they also resulted in the disembodiment of and percieved death of Voldemort as well as the imprisionment of the Sirius Black.
Were it revealled that Pettigrew were still alive and well there are quite few pwople that would attempt to run him to ground and his life would be worthless.
In a sense some aspects of Pettigrew's character reminds me of Prometheus because, both were bound because of the course of action that they chose to take and each were released from their bonds through the efforts of a stronger character. In the case of Pettigrew he was released from his bondage because of Harry's mercy. Likewise, Heracles showed mercy towarrd Prometheus and freed him from his imprisonment.
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Mrs. Sirius - Jun 4, 2007 8:53 am (#159 of 257)
Pettigrew breaks free from fear. Remember he has many opportunities to learn that Sirius is free (he was losing weight and looking ratty for sometime now). Including for course, the night Sirius broke into the Gryffindor 's dorm and slashed Ron bedding.
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Choices - Jun 4, 2007 8:56 am (#160 of 257)
I always thought the "chained" part was sort of like saying, "Sorry, I'd like to help you, but my hands are tied." Your hands are not literally tied, but it just means you are powerless to help. I like the idea that Peter was "chained" by his fear - he was powerless without Voldemort to direct him. Peter's strength came from his association with Voldemort and with Voldemort gone, Peter could do nothing.
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Steve Newton - Jun 4, 2007 11:43 am (#161 of 257)
I looked up the definition of chain and didn't find any quirky obscure definitions which would allow for some maneuver room.
Anyway, on to Chapter 17-Cat, Rat and Dog
This is the chapter that hooked me. I had to read it 3 times before I figured out what was going on.
Harry and Hermione pull off the cloak and run and "it streamed behind them like a banner." Good image.
At one time I thought that Grindelwald's punishment was being turned into a tree and the Whomping Willow was such a grouch because he was still ticced.
Hermioine asks for help and Crookshanks does. mmmmmmmmmmmm
The 'bottlebrush tail' must be mentioned at least 10 time. I don't see anything meaningful about it.
Ron shows incredible bravery by standing beside Harry with a broken leg. For those keeping score Ron has now been hors de combat in 2 of the first 3 books. He will be again in book 5. (Out in books 1, 3, 5, and 7?)
Harry overcomes a powerful wizard without magic. Foreshadowing?
How smart is Crookshanks?
Like Draco in HBP, Harry cannot kill.
"Do it now said a voice in his head." The first occurrence of The Voice. It urges Harry to kill. It mellows out in later books. I don't recall any mentions in HBP. Is it Harry's conscience or a hint that there is more than one person home?
Lupin catches all three wands!
"Where is he, Sirius?" This is where I started losing it my first time.
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journeymom - Jun 4, 2007 1:34 pm (#162 of 257)
Yeah, there's a lot to parallel between Cat, Rat and Dog and the Lightening Struck Tower.
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Uncle Brad - Jun 4, 2007 6:02 pm (#163 of 257)
The invisibility cloak 'streamed behind them like a banner', but then how could anyone see it being invisible :~0
I wondered about Crookshanks helping Hermione too. He wants to protect Sirius, but he allows Harry & Hermioine into the willow. Since the plan was to get Pettegrew, why let them in at all? Or was Sirius's overall purpose to confront or meet Harry?
Sirius must be the size of a Great Dane to drag Ron around like that. I agree that Ron put up a great fight what with the broken leg. Sirius didn't take the kids serious enough, being beaten by them in a fight. It was much like the Death Eaters in book 5. Will that be Voldemort's downfall?
The mystery of Peter Pettigrew has been solved, but as has been mentioned earlier, why didn't Lupin notice the time turned kids on the map? It has to show the forest, otherwise Crouch Jr. would not have seen Crouch Sr. in book 4 to murder him.
As Defense teacher, I would have expected Lupin to master the Expellearmis spell to the point that the other wands would be catchable. No sense leaving them lying around for your enemy to pick up later.
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Mrs Brisbee - Jun 5, 2007 6:41 am (#164 of 257)
This is the chapter that hooked me. I had to read it 3 times before I figured out what was going on.-- Steve Newton
This is Rowling's plotting at its best. The positions change with mindboggling rapidity. Certainly this chapter and the next two are what make this book one of my favorites.
Hermioine asks for help and Crookshanks does. mmmmmmmmmmmm
I noticed that too. He is Hermione's pet cat/kneazle, so he is loyal to her, even though Sirius is his friend. I think Crookshanks is very intelligent, but still thinks like a cat: "The rat is caught! Let's get all my friends together with me in one room now-- purr, purr, purr."
Ron shows incredible bravery by standing beside Harry with a broken leg.
Ron's bravery seems to reach Sirius. Something flickers in Sirius's eyes. Sirius would have died for his friends, too. Ron's personality also stands in opposition to Pettigrew's.
Harry overcomes a powerful wizard without magic. Foreshadowing?
An excellent show of Muggle Dueling! Foreshadowing? Fred and George did make a point how handy it was to know certain Muggle things-- like lockpicking-- and Harry shows us he took their advice to heart at the beginning of PoA. I do think the handiness of the mundane will continue to be significant to the plot.
It is actually the Trio that takes out Sirius-- Harry's maneuver surprised Sirius, but it was Hermione and Ron joining the fray that meant the difference between winning and losing.
"Do it now said a voice in his head." The first occurrence of The Voice. It urges Harry to kill. It mellows out in later books. I don't recall any mentions in HBP. Is it Harry's conscience or a hint that there is more than one person home?
Thanks, Steve. I was going to ask you about that.
Yeah, there's a lot to parallel between Cat, Rat and Dog and the Lightening Struck Tower.-- journeymom
I know there was some discussion on one of the threads about the similarities and contrasts between the two events, but I can't remember where and when. Can you elaborate?
The mystery of Peter Pettigrew has been solved, but as has been mentioned earlier, why didn't Lupin notice the time turned kids on the map? It has to show the forest, otherwise Crouch Jr. would not have seen Crouch Sr. in book 4 to murder him.-- Uncle Brad
I didn't think the Map shows very far into the forest, if at all, because it was only supposed to show school grounds. But it is true that Barty Crouch Sr. seems to have only come to the edge of the forest, so it's a bit of a mystery. I don't think Lupin saw the time turned Harry and Hermione because he already had his eye on the Trio on the Map-- no need to go looking for them elsewhere. The dots are small, and the nametags accompanying the dots are in minuscule writing. It seems you have to be looking right at a dot and trying g to read who it belongs to in order to pick up the name. An odd name won't jump out at you unless you're looking right at it.
As Defense teacher, I would have expected Lupin to master the Expelliarmis spell to the point that the other wands would be catchable. No sense leaving them lying around for your enemy to pick up later.
Lupin's magical competence is impressive. I love how he's not flashy, just really, really good. I missed the first time I read that Sirius also does a perfect Expelliarmus, catching two wands-- and he spent 12 years in Azkaban and doesn't seem to have had a wand until he took Ron's!
I think I incorporated most of my notes into replies. So, just a couple of things:
"The cat, the rat, and Lovell the dog/ Rule all England under the hog" seems to be the playful inspiration for this chapter title but the cat, rat and dog of the rhyme (Catesby, Ratcliff, and Lovell) have nothing to do with the Harry Potter characters that I can think of. The writer of the rhyme was William Collingham. My American encyclopedias don't think him worth noting, so I'm going off memory here. Collingham was put to death by Richard III-- the "hog" of the rhyme because of his white boar emblem. Although popularly said to have suffered a traitor's death because of his satirical rhymes, Collingham was actually involved in more substantial plotting against the Crown.
"Nox" is the goddess of Darkness, who gave birth to Light. Anything there?
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Steve Newton - Jun 5, 2007 5:05 pm (#165 of 257)
Oops, I made a mistake. So much for depending on my memory. I found my file of voice references and see this from COS:
COS
Ch 11-The Dueling Club
“Ah, said a nasty little voice in his brain, but the Sorting Hat wanted to put you in Slytherin, don’t you remember?”
By GOF the voice is being helpful:
Ch 17 Beauxbatons and Durmstrang
Moody is doing the imperio curse.
“Why, though? Another voice had awoken in the back of his brain. Stupid thing to do, really, said the voice. Jump onto the desk…. No, I don’t think I will, thanks, said the other voice, a little more firmly…no, I don’t really want to….”
This is the one that makes me suspicious. "Another voice had awoken in the back of his brain."
I have at least 7 more references.
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Soul Search - Jun 5, 2007 5:37 pm (#166 of 257)
Steve Newton,
The "voice" references sound interesting. How about listing the references you have on a new topic so we can discuss them.
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Steve Newton - Jun 5, 2007 5:43 pm (#167 of 257)
Well, there was a thread with them and it died. Here are the others:
GOF
Ch 17 Beauxbatons and Durmstrang
Moody is doing the imperio curse.
“Why, though? Another voice had awoken in the back of his brain. Stupid thing to do, really, said the voice. Jump onto the desk…. No, I don’t think I will, thanks, said the other voice, a little more firmly…no, I don’t really want to….”
Ch 34 Prior Incantatem
Graveyard scene
"I asked you whether you want me to do that again," said Voldemort softly. "Answer me! Imperio" And Harry felt, for the third time in his life, the sensation that his mind had been wiped of all thought. . . . Ah, it was bliss, not to think, it was as though he were floating, dreaming ...just answer no ... say no ... just answer no. .. . I will not, said a stronger voice, in the back of his head, I won't answer. . . . Just answer no. . . . I won't do it, I won't say it. ... Just answer no. . . . "I WON'T!"
OOTP
Ch 1 Dudley Demented
But there was no happiness in him… the Dementor's icy fingers were closing on his throat -the high-pitched laughter was growing louder and louder, and a voice spoke inside his head: 'Bow to death, Harry…it might even be painless… I would not know … I have never died …" He was never going to see Ron and Hermione again -And their faces burst clearly into his mind as he fought for breath. 'EXPECTO PATRONUM!'
Ch 9-The Woes of Mrs Weasley
He had forgotten completely about prefects being chosen in the fifth year. He had been too anxious about the possibility of being expelled to spare a thought for the fact that badges must be winging their way towards certain people. But if he had remembered… if he had thought about it… what would he have expected? Not this, said a small and truthful voice inside his head. Harry screwed up his face and buried it in his hands. He could not lie to himself; if he had known the prefect badge was on its way, he would have expected it to come to him, not Ron. Did this make him as arrogant as Draco Malfoy? Did he think himself superior to everyone else? Did he really believe he was better than Ron? No, said the small voice defiantly. Was that true? Harry wondered, anxiously probing his own feelings. I'm better at Quidditch, said the voice. But I'm not better at anything else. That was definitely true, Harry thought; he was no better than Ron in lessons. But what about outside lessons? What about those adventures he, Ron and Hermione had had together since starting at Hogwarts, often risking much worse than expulsion? Well, Ron and Hermione were with me most of the time, said the voice in Harry's head. Not all the time, though, Harry argued with himself. They didn't fight Quirrell with me. They didn't take on Riddle and the Basilisk. They didn't get rid of all those Dementors the night Sirius escaped. They weren't in that graveyard with me, the night Voldemort returned…And the same feeling of ill-usage that had overwhelmed him on the night he had arrived rose again. I've definitely done more, Harry thought indignantly. I've done more than either of them! But maybe, said the small voice fairly, maybe Dumbledore doesn't choose prefects because they've got themselves into a load of dangerous situations… maybe he chooses them for other reasons… Ron must have something you don't… Harry opened his eyes and stared through his fingers at the wardrobe's clawed feet, remembering what Fred had said: 'No one in their right mind would make Ron a prefect…'
Ch Dumbledore’s Army
Talking to Dobby about a room
For a moment Harry was tempted to go with Dobby. He was halfway out of his seat, intending to hurry upstairs for his Invisibility Cloak when, not for the first time, a voice very much like Hermione's whispered in his ear: reckless. It was, after all, very late, he was exhausted, and had Snape's essay to finish.
Ch 24 Occlumency
No, said a voice inside Harry's head, as the memory of Cho drew nearer, you're not watching that, you're not watching it, it's private-
Ch 29 Career Advice
He felt as though the memory of it was eating him from inside. He had been so sure his parents were wonderful people that he had never had the slightest difficulty in disbelieving the aspersions Snape cast on his father's character. Hadn't people like Hagrid and Sirius told Harry how wonderful his father had been? (Yeah, well, look what Sirius was like himself, said a nagging voice inside Harry's head… he was as bad, wasn't he?) Yes, he had once overheard Professor McGonagall saying that his father and Sirius had been troublemakers at school, but she had described them as forerunners of the Weasley twins, and Harry could not imagine Fred and George dangling someone upside-down for the fun of it… not unless they really loathed them… perhaps Malfoy, or somebody who really deserved it…
Ch 32 Out of the Fire
Trying to see McGonagall
He wheeled around and strode blindly from the hospital wing into the teeming corridor where he stood, buffeted by the crowd, panic expanding inside him like poison gas so that his head swam and he could not think what to do… Ron and Hermione, said a voice in his head.
Ch 34 The Department of Mysteries
They passed row eighty-four… eighty-five… Harry was listening hard for the slightest sound of movement, but Sirius might be gagged now, or else unconscious… or, said an unbidden voice inside his head, he might already be dead…
Ch 38 The Second War Begins
Sirius didn't have his mirror on him when he went through the archway, said a small voice in Harry's head. That's why it's not working…
A couple sound superfluous such as the one from chapater 34 of GOF. Some are interesting. And the Dumbledore's Army chapter, where I seem to have omitted the chapter number, seems to obviously be a reminder of Hermione.
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Uncle Brad - Jun 5, 2007 7:53 pm (#168 of 257)
Lupin watched on the map as Harry, Ron and Hermione crossed the grounds in route to Hagrid's hut. He then watched them leave twenty minutes later with Pettigrew; I still think he should have noticed time turned Harry and Hermione leaving the castle before the trio left the supply closet. Any movement outside of the castle proper should have been noticed. But that brings up another matter, why didn't he notice Pettigrew in Hagrid's hut? One would think the map would show everyone there and a fifth person certainly would have been noticed. If he had, the whole thing in the shrieking shack might have been avoided since he could come down to Hagrids and confront Peter there. Too many loopholes for my non-magical mind to fill.
Steve - the voice Harry hears inside his head in Dudley Demented I always assumed to be Voldemort, gloating a bit upon Harry's impending death. Voldemort did the same thing with Harry''s dreams later on, trying to get him into the Ministry.
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Steve Newton - Jun 6, 2007 4:10 am (#169 of 257)
True, but since Voldemort didn't yet know of the connection it would suggest a horcrux or something else inside of Harry.
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Mrs Brisbee - Jun 7, 2007 7:29 pm (#170 of 257)
Steve, after reading through that list I'm a lot less skeptical of your Voice Within theory. It does seem to add up to an interesting pattern-- barring the nagging Hermione voice, of course . And brings up the point: Just what is a soulbit once it is detached from the main soul? The soulbit in the diary seemed to give the Tom Riddle memory adaptability-- the ability to take in new information and deviate from its program. The presumed soulbit in Nagini is supposed to do what exactly? Ack, I can't remember what Dumbledore said in HBP. Something about Voldemort having extraordinary control over her? If a soulbit is in Harry, just how much of a presence would it have when the connection between it and Voldemort isn't "live"? It's an interesting question. Hmmm.
One other thing I wanted to note about this chapter: Lupin embraces Sirius "like a brother". This ties into the family theme.
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Steve Newton - Jun 8, 2007 10:23 am (#171 of 257)
Mrs. B, I do think that there is something going on. I fought the Harry/Horcrux theory for a while but it is the way I am thinking now. I can't come up with any other explanation except for some wild ones. There were several souls rattling around that night. Could James or Lily be in there? It doesn't work for me.
Chapter 18-Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, and Prongs
I guess that if Dumbledore is an animagus he registered last century.
We've met quite a few unregistered animagi. I would guess that we will meet 1 or 2 more.
I do not know how the Wolfsbane Potion works. Does it have to be taken everyday in the week before the full moon?
It took the marauders about 2 years to figure out Lupin's secret.
I do not think that Snape was jealous of James' talent on the Quidditch field. He could have been jealous of something else.
Sirius' sense of humor is a tad over the top. Sending someone into a deadly situation would not strike me as funny.
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Mrs Brisbee - Jun 8, 2007 10:41 am (#172 of 257)
I've a full slate today and tomorrow, so my notes will have to wait, but a few quick comments:
I do not think that Snape was jealous of James' talent on the Quidditch field. He could have been jealous of something else.
Sirius' sense of humor is a tad over the top. Sending someone into a deadly situation would not strike me as funny.-- Steve Newton
I've got to agree that there is more going on here than we've been told. Lupin's comment seems to be boiling it down to the most facile. Snape does seem to harbor some jealousy, not so much for James's talents but for the fame that came with it. But Sirius's "joke" was beyond the pale. We've gotten some notion for why Snape hates the Marauders, but why does Sirius hate Snape so much? Something that we haven't been told yet? Or is it as simple as Snape always sneaking around trying to get them expelled, and Sirius still suffering from a serious case of arrested development? I can't see why Snape would think he owed James a life debt--or anything else-- over the "prank" when he thinks James and Lupin were in on it too. There's got to be a few pieces missing to this puzzle.
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Mrs Brisbee - Jun 10, 2007 5:07 am (#173 of 257)
A few notes on Chapter 18, "Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, and Prongs":
Lupin insists that he and Sirius explain what is going on. Lupin explains the past, starting with his being bitten by a werewolf when a child. The present cannot be understood without knowing the past. Sometimes it is hard to see how it all connects together until the tale is done.
The trio still trusts Lupin enough to listen to him, and ask him questions.
For Lupin, the Shrieking Shack is a miserable place, that kept him safe. A necessary prison. I can see a parallel with the Dursley house for Harry.
When Lupin mentions Snape, it makes Sirius take his eyes off Scabbers. Snape is adding up to more than a boyhood nemesis if he is that distracting!
We are told that Snape especially didn't like James. In "Snape's Worst Memory", OotP, James attacks Snape to entertain Sirius. Is Sirius the leader of the Hate Snape movement, and why?
Snape picks Lupin to cover with his wand, not Sirius. Lupin still has his wand, though not in hand. He's also could turn into a werewolf at any moment. I think the werewolf thing really bothers Snape. In PS/SS, Snape was teaching his first years how to treat werewolf bites. Makes me wonder why Snape would want to be in an organization with Fenrir Greyback in it.
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Steve Newton - Jun 10, 2007 5:47 am (#174 of 257)
Mrs. B you said "For Lupin, the Shrieking Shack is a miserable place, that kept him safe. A necessary prison. I can see a parallel with the Dursley house for Harry." Good catch.
Snape did cover Lupin. Something I had noticed before but did not notice on this reread is that Lupin is decisive and deadly. In a few moments of conversation he discards his previous beliefs, recognizes Peter's guilt, and is ready to kill. A man to respect as Michael Corleone might say.
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Choices - Jun 10, 2007 9:57 am (#175 of 257)
Mrs. Brisbee - "Makes me wonder why Snape would want to be in an organization with Fenrir Greyback in it."
Perhaps Fenrir had not joined Voldemort when Snape joined the DE's years ago. Now, Snape is (I believe) a spy for Dumbledore in the DE's and he must do his job regardless of who he has to associate with in Voldemort's gang.
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journeymom - Jun 10, 2007 3:04 pm (#176 of 257)
And don't forget, even Greyback was 'cowed' by Snape's presence on the Tower.
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Uncle Brad - Jun 10, 2007 4:57 pm (#177 of 257)
Snape may have picked up a bit of knowledge over the years about the best ways to deal with werewolves. Both how to treat them and their bites, as well as how to dispose of them if needed. All brought on by his encounter with Lupin as a student. Thus he has the knowledge to help Lupin with the wolfsbane potion and to earn the respect or fear of Fenrir.
In chapter 18 Sirius seems a bit crazy - somewhat over the top even for a recent Azkaban prisoner. That is until Lupin mentions Harry, which seems to calm him considerably. he really does seem to hold a grudge against Snape as well, long after he should have gotten over the school yard issues.
Poor Ron's broken leg sure does take a beating. Amazing he stayed conscious, but then again Wizards seem to be made of sterner stuff...
Hermione resorts to logic, both to calm herself as well as to get to the bottom of things. Always her strong suit.
"In those days there was no cure..." Is there a cure now or are they talking of the wolfsbane potion?
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journeymom - Jun 10, 2007 8:20 pm (#178 of 257)
Good point, Uncle Brad. I wonder if JKR misstated. The Lexicon says, While this potion doesn't cure lycanthropy, it does prevent the extremely dangerous dementia which would otherwise accompany the transformation from human into werewolf.
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Mrs Brisbee - Jun 11, 2007 6:45 am (#179 of 257)
Perhaps Fenrir had not joined Voldemort when Snape joined the DE's years ago.-- Choices
A fair point. I doubt Snape would have known the Death Eaters' exact roster until after he'd joined. We know that Fenrir was biting people as early as Lupin's childhood, but we don't when Fenrir joined forces with Voldemort.
And don't forget, even Greyback was 'cowed' by Snape's presence on the Tower.-- Journeymom
An interesting point. I think Snape fears werewolves, but if so he never showed that fear to Fenrir. Instead, Fenrir is intimidated by Snape.
In chapter 18 Sirius seems a bit crazy - somewhat over the top even for a recent Azkaban prisoner. That is until Lupin mentions Harry, which seems to calm him considerably. he really does seem to hold a grudge against Snape as well, long after he should have gotten over the school yard issues.-- Uncle Brad
Don't most long term Azkaban prisoners go insane or die? Bellatrix and Barty Crouch, Jr., both strike me as being a few bricks shy of a load-- but of course they could have started that way too. Sirius spent 12 years with only the thought of his innocence keeping him sane. I think those years kind of trained him into tunnel vision, so he keeps this single minded determination to Get Peter Pettigrew no matter what.
While in Azkaban, Sirius must have also been dwelling on whatever bad memories involving Snape he had also. Why else would the mention of Snape's name cause Sirius to look away from the rat who had betrayed Lily and James? But I can't imagine why Sirius finds his school days grudge so important. His deadly "prank" happened years before his stint in Azkaban. Either Sirius started out as murderously unhinged, or there was more going on back then than we've been told as of yet.
Hermione resorts to logic, both to calm herself as well as to get to the bottom of things. Always her strong suit.
Oh, you are so right. Hermione is ever so wonderfully Hermione in this chapter!
Something I had noticed before but did not notice on this reread is that Lupin is decisive and deadly. In a few moments of conversation he discards his previous beliefs, recognizes Peter's guilt, and is ready to kill. A man to respect as Michael Corleone might say.-- Steve
I want Lupin on my team . I think Lupin is a great character, because we get to see how he thinks and how he grows in these chapters. He shows his strengths of competence, quickness, and intelligence; he admits his flaws here- his paralyzing fear of losing his friends-- and we see that he hasn't been so decisive up to this point. The revelation of Peter Pettigrew seems to have "unchained" all the former Marauders. Sirius saw Pettigrew's picture as Scabbers, and he resolves to take action and escape prison. Lupin sees Pettigrew's name on the Map, and things fall in place and he springs into action. Pettigrew's cover is blown, and after 12 years of hiding he makes his choice to return to Voldemort.
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Uncle Brad - Jun 11, 2007 6:35 pm (#180 of 257)
I agree Mrs. Brisbee - Lupin on your team would make a stronger team when the chips are down. He doesn't hesitate to throw away 12 years of beliefs because of just one new fact. He is finally acting, standing for what he believes is right, and I think even Snape recognizes the true power in the room when he points his wand at Lupin. I think that Snape realises that disarming and imobilizing Lupin is as far as he can really go with witnesses, while killing Sirius would probably be looked on by most as necessary. More on that thought with the next chapter...
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TwinklingBlueEyes - Jun 12, 2007 9:30 am (#181 of 257)
“All children are gifted. Some just open their presents later than others.”
ANONYMOUS
Interesting that Lupin makes the decision in a heartbeat, but we have covered Lupin being a late bloomer long ago. Many don't mature till later, and some never do. Lupins "growing" in this scene is very tale-tell of Harry's growing, don't you think?
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journeymom - Jun 12, 2007 9:45 am (#182 of 257)
TBE, that's a neat saying.
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Steve Newton - Jun 13, 2007 5:25 pm (#183 of 257)
Chapter 19=The Servant of Lord Voldemort
We know that Snape knew about the Shack and probably how to get in, did he use if for anything? He seems to be almost out of control. This is not the skilled occlumens who deals with Voldemort.
Its not a surprise that Harry attacked Snape but it is a surprise that Ron, and especially, Hermione did.
I still don't know how Peter killed a dozen people with one spell. From behind his back. I don't think that we have seen anything that can do that.
Having Scabbers transform after the better part of 3 books is almost playing dirty. I guess his not turning yellow in the first book was a clue.
Watery eyes have gotten several mentions in the book. I guess that the alchemy folks have covered this.
Somebody had already escaped from Azkaban, Crouch. Anybody else?
Black says Voldemort.
Peter is actually pretty good at picking up on points for his defense.
Peter says Voldemort.
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Mrs Brisbee - Jun 14, 2007 6:52 am (#184 of 257)
I still don't know how Peter killed a dozen people with one spell. From behind his back. I don't think that we have seen anything that can do that.--Steve Newton
Maybe the Muggle-worthy excuse was close to the mark, and there actually was a gas explosion. I think Peter planned his "death" carefully. He had hours to put it all together before he let Sirius find him. At the beginning of the book we had Wendolin the Weird, who purposely let herself be captured and used a simple spell to protect herself from harm. I think Peter did this on a grander scale. He chose a crowded street for two reasons: one was so that many Muggles would be between himself and Sirius, thus delaying any action Sirius could have taken against him; the second was for collateral damage, so there would be incontestable murder victims and witnesses when Sirius was hauled off to prison. Peter made sure he knew right where the sewer and gas main were. Then I think Peter used magic to protect himself from fire and shrapnel, cut off his finger, and when Sirius showed up said his piece then used the wand behind his back to blast open the street, cracking open the sewer for his escape and causing the explosion from the gas line.
Having Scabbers transform after the better part of 3 books is almost playing dirty. I guess his not turning yellow in the first book was a clue.
George's spell to turn fat rats yellow doesn't sound like the other spell incantations we know, so I've always been inclined to agree with Ron that the spell was a dud. I can't really think of any clues from the first two books that there was anything odd about Scabbers, so I understand what you mean about "playing dirty". Scabbers does act odd all through PoA, though, to make up for it. But I never would have guessed that Scabbers was actually an Animagus.
Black says Voldemort.
Peter says Voldemort.
I'd missed that part about Peter saying the name. So all the remaining Marauders will speak Voldemort's name.
In other notes:
Snape is feeling very triumphant at catching Sirius. it's a "me" moment: "lucky for me", "How I hoped I would be the one..."
Snape's motives are personal.
Sirius and Snape show equal hatred for each other. What's the story there? We've seen why Snape would personally hate the Marauders, but not why Sirius would have such a personal hatred of Snape.
Snape thinks werewolf is an indictment, putting out being in the company of a werewolf in the same league as hanging out with convicted murderers (Side nitpicky note that Sirius wasn't actually convicted; I think Rowling must have altered the story a little in GoF). Earlier, we saw that Hermione was covering for Lupin, but "werewolf" was one of the first things she threw out there to prove he was evil. "Werewolf" was enough to turn Ron from Lupin-- for a few minutes, anyway. They all listened to Lupin's tale, including Snape. Snape seems to be the only one whose opinion of werewolves didn't shift from the tale.
It is Snape's threats against Lupin that cause Harry to act, and Ron and Hermione to join him.
Sirius thinks he could have taken Snape, even with a wand pointed right at him. Yep, a few bricks shy.
I bet Peter didn't find this reassuring: "No one's going to try and kill you until we've sorted a few things out," said Lupin. One of those darkly humorous lines. I also always get a laugh at Peter's "far-fetched" and "lunacy" while defending himself from the accusations of the Animagus dog and the werewolf. Great wordplay there.
Did Voldemort's supporters in Azkaban know that Peter was the spy? I suppose Bellatrix must have known that Sirius wasn't the real spy, at any rate.
Sirius thought Lupin had been the spy until Peter's betrayal. That was why Lupin wasn't informed about the Secret Keeper switch. Why was Lupin suspect? Lupin thought Sirius was the spy after Godrics Hollow. Lupin and Sirius forgive each other, just like that.
Sirius and Lupin seem to view this as a family affair, like it's their responsibility to take care of it. When Harry steps in, Sirius declares that only Harry has the right to decide for mercy.
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Choices - Jun 14, 2007 10:36 am (#185 of 257)
It is still odd to me that we learn what Sirius has been doing for 12 years - sitting in Azkaban, what Peter has been doing - being a rat and living with the Weasleys, but we do not yet have any idea what Lupin did or where he was during those 12 years. Is this significant?
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Uncle Brad - Jun 14, 2007 6:53 pm (#186 of 257)
If any chapter of any book shows Snape on the side of evil, I think this one is it. He is not trying to protect Harry, he is seeking revenge for torment in school years ago. I believe he is even more unhinged than Sirius at the moment. Since nothing really involves Harry, he can show his true feelings and they are not happy thoughts.
I agree it was a surprise that Hermione added her spell to the collective 'expellearmis' against Snape. I think it even surprised her 'we attacked a teacher' she whimpered...
I believe Peter set it up to cause a lot of damage with a Reducto charm. The blast and resulting fragments is what killed the Muggles. I agree with Mrs. B about having it out in a crowd both for victims and witnesses. Peter is indeed sharp enough to plan that, not to mention the whole betrayal.
I think Lupin was suspect because of his werewolf status. They knew they had a spy, so EVERYONE is a suspect unless proven otherwise. Once James was killed, Sirius was the chief suspect because he was suppose to be the secret keeper. Unfortunately he had no chance to prove his innocence.
I too wonder what Lupin had done for the past 12 years.
"telling Voldemort you could hand him the Potters." and "...ready to strike at the moment he could be sure of allies... and to deliver the last Potter to them..." I have always wondered at these phrases. It seems as if Voldemort wanted James and Harry dead for whatever reason. I do not think it was because James was working for the Order. Since Voldemort didn't care if Lily lived or died, i can only think it is a blood-line issue with "the last of the Potters" comment. Any insight?
Harry stops them from killing Peter, and even Lupin is startled by the gesture.
And Crookshanks bottlebrush tail held jauntily high as he led the parade out of the shack. At least one being in the shack seemed happy in the end.
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Steve Newton - Jun 15, 2007 4:30 am (#187 of 257)
Brad, I agree that the Potters were targeted and their heritage would seem to be the reason. Unless they are descendants of one of the founders, or Merlin I guess, I can't see any other reason.
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Mrs Brisbee - Jun 15, 2007 6:40 am (#188 of 257)
Could the Potters be descendants of Ravenclaw? I don't know that the founders will figure into it at all, but it's something to speculate about. Voldemort must have found out something significant about Harry to make him decide that Harry was absolutely the one whose murder should be used to make that last Horcrux.
If any chapter of any book shows Snape on the side of evil, I think this one is it. He is not trying to protect Harry, he is seeking revenge for torment in school years ago. I believe he is even more unhinged than Sirius at the moment. Since nothing really involves Harry, he can show his true feelings and they are not happy thoughts.-- Uncle Brad
Interesting take on Snape. I concluded in this book that Snape was working for the right side, but for purely selfish reasons. Selfishness is also one of the great traits of evil so I can see why you say that. I've always assumed that the characters do reveal to us their true thoughts and feelings from time to time, and I do think that's what Snape is doing now.
Snape's outburst is the bedrock for many of my conclusions about Snape: "Like father, like son, Potter! I have just saved your neck; you should be thanking me on bended knee! You would have been well served if he had killed you! You'd have died like your father, too arrogant to believe you might be mistaken in Black-- now get out of the way, or I will make you..." I know it has been discussed to death on other threads, but the "like father, like son" comment sounds like Snape has reason to believe that James owed him thanks. This has been built into the reasonable theory that it was Snape who warned Dumbledore that there was a spy close to the Potters and that Voldemort had decided to target the Potters for death because of the Prophecy. Snape seems to get really ticked off when he doesn't get the accolades he feels he deserves. I've been operating on the assumption that Snape wants redemption for his past actions, and he desperately wants that acknowledgment that will tell him that he's all done now and off the hook. His quest for redemption is very self-centered, and he gets irked when people won't cooperate to give him what he wants.
There is also a disconnect between what Dumbledore said about how Snape feels and what Snape tells us about how he feels. Dumbledore told us that James saved Snape's life, and Snape was working hard to protect Harry because he felt he owed a debt to James. Snape tells us that he thinks all the Marauders were in on the "prank" and James got cold feet and stopped it so he and his friends wouldn't get in trouble. If Snape honestly thinks James was in on the prank, I can't see him thinking he owed James a thing. The other disconnect I see is the trustworthiness of Snape's motives. If the motives are selfish, they will always revolve around what serves Snape. That might make Snape predictable, but it is not the same as trustworthy.
Contrasting Snape's desire for revenge is Harry. Harry was advised by Arthur at the beginning of school to not seek out Sirius Black. Draco tried to goad him into it. Once Harry found out what the deal was, both Ron and Hermione tell him not to go looking for Black. Harry is angry and hurt, but his desire for revenge evaporates in the face of his friends' troubles. Even with the danger of Sirius Black lurking over him, Harry moves on to other things. He doesn't even think of revenge again until Sirius Black has the trio cornered and it seems his murder is imminent. But once the trio have turned the tables and captured Sirius, Harry finds himself unable to act on his desire for revenge. And it turns out the same when Pettigrew is exposed as the real betrayer, and Harry steps in to stop Pettigrew from being killed. He doesn't want Sirius and Lupin to become murderers. Again he finds more important things than revenge.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jun 15, 2007 9:24 pm (#189 of 257)
Greyback was not incarcerated in Azkaban during the period of Voldemort's absence, although he may have kept a low profile. I think Remus could have been working within community to counteract the efforts of Greyback and the werwolves allied with him. I can see him as a quiet crusader against likes of Greyback and Umbridge.
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Mrs Brisbee - Jun 16, 2007 6:15 am (#190 of 257)
Lupin does have a winning personality that could be an asset on such missions. He got everyone (except Snape) in the Shrieking Shack to calm down and talk things out.
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Steve Newton - Jun 18, 2007 11:43 am (#191 of 257)
Chapter 20-The Dementor's Kiss
I don't think that Dumbledore would have let Harry live at Sirius'. This would take him from the protection at the Dursley's. (Brain glitch. I can't remember the address. 20 something?)
The Round Pink Spider has done a lot of research on Norse mythology. One of the images is of the Hanged Man and Snape is a good representation here. I don't remember the import. (See paragraph above.) Something do do with Odin I think.
Harry won't leave his friends in danger.
Was it necessary for Peter to stun (or whatever he did) Ron?
I think that the Dementors affect Sirius extra hard since he now has good thoughts of Harry which they can feast on. (There might be a real sentence in there somewhere.)
"He was alone...completely alone...." I suspect that this might foreshadow the climax of DH.
The Dementor goes for Harry first, no Sirius, the escaped prisoner.
JKR has used the "strangely familiar" gambit a couple of times. The only one not so far explained is the proprietor of the Hogs Head who must be Aberforth.
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Choices - Jun 18, 2007 1:24 pm (#192 of 257)
".....One of the images is of the Hanged Man"
Interesting - the Hanged Man is the name of the pub in Little Hangleton (or is it Greater Hangleton?) where the maid went to discuss the murders of the Riddles.
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Uncle Brad - Jun 18, 2007 6:08 pm (#193 of 257)
Mrs. B. I don't think anything would have calmed Snape down other than a few well placed curses (which seemed to work for Harry & company). I doubt that Lupin had been working with the werewolf community before this book. I suspect he just had the odd job or two courtesy of friends. His familiarty in Defense against the Dark Arts suggests he might have had something to do with that. Possibly as a vagabond curse breaker.
Steve - I tend to agree that Dumbledore would not have looked kindly on Harry living with Sirius, but I think he might have come up with something to help protect Harry, possibly doing the one week at #4 to reset the spells and the rest of the time at friends (or Sirius's).
I don't think it was necessary for Peter to stun Ron other that to make sure he didn't interfere with the transformation (wandless magic to transform?) I think some of the spell came from having to be a rat for 12 years and he gave Ron a bit of pay-back for a year's worth of rat tonic. I think stunning Crookshanks was another bit of pay-back combined with need.
I agree that the dementors have somthing to feast on with Sirius. As far as the dementors going after Harry, they did that at the beginning of the book too. They ignored everyone in the car but seemed to go after Harry in particular. Possibly it has something to do with the 'Harry is a Horcrux' theory and they are really going after the Voldemort soul-bit.
As far as Harry and the dementor, he has now survived the killing curse and can accuratly describe what a dementor's face looks like. Two things no wizard ever did before.
The question I always had was why didn't Lupin change with the rising moon instead of when it just appeared out from behind a cloud. It can't be because he has to see moonlight, because then he could just lock himself in the dungeon to prevent transformation.
As far as something mentioned earlier. We now have the chains that Peter freed himself from to escape and return to the Dark Lord. Amazing how that tidbit got overlooked when we were discussing it earlier.
I'll have to check out the Norse mythology bit.
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journeymom - Jun 18, 2007 7:59 pm (#194 of 257)
Odin was hanged from the "World Tree", for 9 days, and he gained wisdom. I think he learned how to read runes, or he invented them or something, after his experience on the tree. Also, men were hanged from trees in sacrifice to Odin, so he was called the god of the hanged.
"The Hanged Man" is the name of a tarot card, like "The Lightening Struck Tower" is. The Hanged Man was called "The Traitor" in older cards. I can imagine that if the Hanged Man pub had been portrayed in the movie, the sign would have shown a man hanging upside down. Weren't traitors in Christian tradition hanged upside down?
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Pamzter - Jun 18, 2007 8:33 pm (#195 of 257)
Tradition holds that when Jesus' disciple Peter was martyred by crucifixion, he requested to be crucified upside down because he did not feel worthy to die in the same manner as his master. The only person in scripture specifically identified as a traitor was Judas Iscariot. He was overcome by remorse and committed suicide.
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Mrs Brisbee - Jun 19, 2007 4:24 am (#196 of 257)
The question I always had was why didn't Lupin change with the rising moon instead of when it just appeared out from behind a cloud. It can't be because he has to see moonlight, because then he could just lock himself in the dungeon to prevent transformation.-- Uncle Brad
Perhaps it's when the moonlight strikes the earth that is the trigger. Yeah, I know, a lame explanation, but how many werewolf movies have we all seen where the clouds suddenly part over the moon and the guy transforms into the monster? I bet a lot of werewolves move to Seattle because of the overcast skies. That would explain all the coffee houses, too, because of the late hours they keep they need the caffeine. Anyway, the moonlight striking the earth would make werewolves even more dangerous because of the unpredictability of the change in weather. Rowling did provide an explanation once in an interview, didn't she? But I think she said that the moon wasn't up yet, though obviously it was.
Edit: Here's the quote from the Scholastic interview, Oct. 16, 2000:
Q: Can you explain how Lupin turns into a werewolf, since he didn't turn in the Shrieking Shack in Prisoner of Azkaban, but instead he turned only when the full moonlight hit him outside the tunnel? If he only turned into a wolf in the moonlight, why didn't he just stay inside? Did it have to do with the potion? Or was the moon not up yet?
Rowling: The moon wasn't up when he entered the Shrieking Shack.
The Dementor goes for Harry first, no Sirius, the escaped prisoner.-- Steve Newton
I was very proud of my seven-year-old daughter for spotting this, too. We've been listening to the audiobooks in the car. She has informed me that their are two things she wants to know more about: What happened at Godrics Hollow, and why those "weird dementors" would go after a 13-year-old boy instead of the man they were supposed too.
I think too it is the Harry Is A Horcrux theory. His soul is just richer in calories because of the extra soulbit.
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Steve Newton - Jun 19, 2007 4:25 am (#197 of 257)
Brad, good catch on the chains. I have missed that and I have read or listened to this book at least 10 times.
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Mrs Brisbee - Jun 19, 2007 8:30 am (#198 of 257)
I also agree that Dumbledore wouldn't have wanted Harry to go live with Sirius. As things turned out, with Sirius still on the run, Dumbledore was able to continue controlling Harry's life. Had Sirius been cleared of all charges and been able to assume his godfather role, I don't think Dumbledore would have been able to do whatever he wanted with Harry without telling Sirius what was going on. Dumbledore likes to hoard information, and Sirius doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who just blindly follows someone's orders because they say so.
Something else I've been wondering about is how Sirius became Lily's best friend. I've always wondered why Lily had no friends of her own, but maybe I've been asking the wrong question. Why was Sirius her best friend?
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Choices - Jun 19, 2007 8:52 am (#199 of 257)
Where does it say that Sirius was Lily's best friend? I thought he was James' best friend. Now I'm confunded.....not that I wasn't before. LOL
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Mrs Brisbee - Jun 19, 2007 9:02 am (#200 of 257)
Harry repeatedly refers to Sirius as his parents' best friend. Certainly Harry could be jumping to conclusions, but Lily seems to have been perfectly happy with Sirius being her child's godfather, and did not bother to pick one of her friends to be godmother. In fact, Rowling has said that if Sirius had been married then his wife would have been godmother-- so even a hypothetical bride of Sirius would have been better than any of Lily's friends. Lily also seemed fine with Sirius as Secret Keeper. Only James's friends seem to have been considered, there doesn't seem to be anyone whom Lily wanted to put forward for the job. We don't have any evidence that Lily had friends as an adult beyond James's friends. So Harry's assumption does have merit. But, why? What is it that makes Lily think so highly of Sirius?
Julia H.- Prefect
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Re: Harry Potter Book Read Along Thread - Prisoner of Azkaban
Julia H. Sun Jul 03, 2011 9:33 am
Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban Book Read Along (Posts 201-250)
Choices - Jun 19, 2007 9:20 am (#201 of 257)
When Lily stood up for Snape against James, she was with a group of friends and left them to confront James. Then when Hagrid made the photo album for Harry, he states he wrote to all James and Lily's friends to ask for photographs. I think Lily had her own friends, but they just aren't as important to the story as Sirius and Lupin so we don't hear much about them. When James and Lily chose a godfather for Harry, they were either in hiding or preparing to go into hiding and the less people who knew about their Voldemort problem and their location, the better. Sirius was there, he had been the best man at their wedding and he and James were so close that he was the logical choice for godfather. I think Lily may have just gone along with whatever James wanted.
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Mrs Brisbee - Jun 19, 2007 9:30 am (#202 of 257)
Yes, the photo album does prove she had friends, possibly even as an adult. I'd forgotten about that. And certainly Sirius could be her best friend for plot reasons only, though I find that an unsatisfactory explanation. Surely Lily would have reasons for considering Sirius to be her best friend, above any friends she already had. I'm just saying that maybe there is a reason, an idea I hadn't considered before.
I think Lily may have just gone along with whatever James wanted.
That is possible. I do worry about Lily turning out to have been a doormat. Child Lily doesn't seem to have been one, but I do worry about adult Lily.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jun 19, 2007 9:59 am (#203 of 257)
Steve,
The chief divinity of the Norse pantheon, the foremost of the Aesir. Odin is a son of Bor and Bestla. He is called Alfadir, Allfather, for he is indeed father of the gods. . .Odin is a god of war and death, but also the god of poetry and wisdom. He hung for nine days, pierced by his own spear, on the world tree. Here he learned nine powerful songs, and eighteen runes. Odin can make the dead speak to question the wisest amongst them. . . .. Odin's attributes are the spear Gungnir, which never misses its target, the ring Draupnir, from which every ninth night eight new rings appear, . . . He is also called Othinn, Wodan and Wotan. Some of the aliases he uses to travel incognito among mortals are Vak and Valtam. Wednesday is named after him (Wodan).
Old Norse: Odínn Odin." Encyclopedia Mythica from Encyclopedia Mythica Online. <[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] [Accessed June 18, 2007].
Hermione is connected with Odin beginning in PoA through her studies of ancient runes.
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journeymom - Jun 19, 2007 5:30 pm (#204 of 257)
There is no way on earth Lily was a doormat.
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Choices - Jun 19, 2007 5:51 pm (#205 of 257)
I agree, I don't see Lily as a doormat, but when you are grown up and married, you pick your battles. This issue may not have mattered greatly to Lily or perhaps there wasn't anyone else she liked any better than Sirius for the position of godfather. James and Sirius were very close, best mates, and Lily loved James, so perhaps she trusted his judgement in this.
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Mrs Brisbee - Jun 19, 2007 6:37 pm (#206 of 257)
The welfare of her child not matter?! No, I can't see a woman just going along with whomsoever her husband picked out unless she is a doormat. She should trust her judgment. They should choose together. There is always the chance that Sirius actually was her best friend and she deemed him worthy by her own judgment.
I don't know. It could just be Plot Reasons --or-- maybe for some reason Lily really did think Sirius was the bee's knees. That's what Rowling seems to be implying.
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PatPat - Jun 19, 2007 6:44 pm (#207 of 257)
I agree with journeymom and Choices. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that Lily was a strong capable person her whole life. No way she became a doormat after marrying James. Jo told us that Harry's christening was a very quiet and rushed affair because of the danger. I'm sure the choice of Sirius as godfather was for safety and convenience reasons.
EDIT: I'm not sure that Sirius had to be Lily's best friend simply because she may have trusted him. I'm sure she trusted him as much as James did. This doesn't mean that he was her best friend. Simply that she thought he was trustworthy enough to take care of Harry if something happened to her and James. We don't know what happened between their fifth year that we saw in OoP and James and Lily's marriage. certainly there are many ways Sirius could have proven himself worthy.
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Mrs Brisbee - Jun 19, 2007 6:52 pm (#208 of 257)
I guess I don't understand what all of you are saying. Do you all mean that you think Lily went along with James's choice of Sirius because it was convenient, or do you think Lily herself saw Sirius as the best person to be godparent to her child? Was Sirius really her best friend as well as James's? It seems to me that that is what Rowling is implying.
Edit: PatPat was editing while I was typing! Thanks for clarifying! I don't know why if she had another best friend that person wouldn't be trusted enough to be a godparent or Secret Keeper, though. James's friends seemed to be the only only ones worth trusting. Rowling said if Sirius had a wife she would be the godmother. That points to Sirius actually being Lily's best friend.
Edit again:
Hermione is connected with Odin beginning in PoA through her studies of ancient runes.-- Nathan Zimmerman
Actually, that's a nifty connection. The dead do speak, in a manner of speaking. Peter Pettigrew comes back "alive", Sirius and Lupin speak of their past with James, and James will show himself through Harry via the stag Patronus.
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Uncle Brad - Jun 19, 2007 8:08 pm (#209 of 257)
Lily had a number of years to work with Sirius in the Order, so they may have become friends during that time. I do not think we have enough information to assume too much, but I think that Sirius was picked as godfather not only because he was James' best friend, but because he was also in the Order and secrecy, caution, and prudence were the operating terms of the day. It plays into if Sirius was married his wife would have been godmother. It works both as keeping those in the know small and keeping the godparents together to raise Harry if things went bad. The fact that one of Lily's friends was not picked as godmother or lone godparent might just mean that she had no close friends in the Order (other than Sirius), or her friends were not up to the possible task of raising a baby.
As many have said and I totally agree with - Lily is no doormat. I seem to remember in one of the books that Lily was not in favor of switching secret keepers or was in favor of Dumbledore instead. She finally relented to James reasoning that Sirius would rather die than give them up. I might be mistaken though. I doubt that she had any say-so about the switch to Peter as secret keeper. That seems to have been a decision of James and Sirius as a last bit of trickery on their part to fool everyone.
The information on Odin and the relationship to the Harry Potter saga is too deep for me. I went and read the entire Odin thread, but think that most of it could apply to any hero type story to some extent. I will leave that line of thinking to others for now.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jun 19, 2007 8:33 pm (#210 of 257)
Hermione is connected with Odin beginning in PoA through her studies of ancient runes.-- Nathan Zimmerman
Actually, that's a nifty connection. The dead do speak, in a manner of speaking. Peter Pettigrew comes back "alive", Sirius and Lupin speak of their past with James, and James will show himself through Harry via the stag Patronus.
Mrs. B., could all the examples you gave in your earlier post when taken in conjunction with what is known about ghosts, poltergeists, and portraits foreshadow the introduction of the Pensieve?
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Mrs Brisbee - Jun 20, 2007 9:51 am (#211 of 257)
Mrs. B., could all the examples you gave in your earlier post when taken in conjunction with what is known about ghosts, poltergeists, and portraits foreshadow the introduction of the Pensieve?
They all allow the Dead to speak in a way-- excepting poltergeists, who aren't an imprint of any specific person (I wonder if Peeves would fade away if the school remains closed? But I digress).
The past does keep coming to the present to set the record straight. The Pensieve is one more tool to do just that that Rowling will introduce in GoF. I expect the revelations of the past to continue to play a major role in the final book, too.
Edit: Does Yggrasil resemble the Whomping Willow at all? I know Yggdrasil isn't a willow, but doesn't its roots bind together the different worlds of Norse mythology, plus Odin hanged in it's branches and learned how to speak with the dead, and there's also some sort of stag that hangs out on the roof of Valhalla and eats the branches of the tree. My Norse mythology is a bit foggy.
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Choices - Jun 20, 2007 10:00 am (#212 of 257)
"I wonder if Peeves would fade away if the school remains closed?"
I feel sure that if all the kids were gone, Peeves would be no more.
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journeymom - Jun 20, 2007 11:56 am (#213 of 257)
Mrs B, that parallel between Yggdrasil and the Whomping Willow is pretty clever. I like it.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jun 20, 2007 2:32 pm (#214 of 257)
Yggrasil does bind the worlds together just as Hogwarts as whole binds the four houses into a whole.
In Norse mythology, Yggdrasil ("The Terrible One's Horse"), also called the World Tree, is the giant ash tree that links and shelters all the worlds. Beneath the three roots the realms of Asgard, Jotunheim, and Niflheim are located. Three wells lie at its base: the Well of Wisdom (Mímisbrunnr), guarded by Mimir; the Well of Fate (Urdarbrunnr), guarded by the Norns; and the Hvergelmir (Roaring Kettle), the source of many rivers. Four deer run across the branches of the tree and eat the buds; they represent the four winds. There are other inhabitants of the tree, such as the squirrel Ratatosk ("swift teeth"), a notorious gossip, and Vidofnir ("tree snake"), the golden cock that perches on the topmost bough. The roots are gnawed upon by Nidhogg and other serpents. On the day of Ragnarok, the fire giant Surt will set the tree on fire.
Other names for the tree include: Ask Yggdrasil, Hoddmimir's Wood, Laerad and Odin's Horse. "Yggdrasil." Encyclopedia Mythica from Encyclopedia Mythica Online. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] [Accessed June 20, 2007].
Old Norse: Mimameidr
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Mrs Brisbee - Jun 20, 2007 7:25 pm (#215 of 257)
Four deer run across the branches of the tree and eat the buds
Wow, that tree has one serious stag infestation!
The attending Norns are "Past, "Present", and "Future", appropriately enough.
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Steve Newton - Jun 23, 2007 9:14 am (#216 of 257)
Chapter 21-Hermione's Secret
Snape comes up with a cover story for the trio attacking him. Odd, unless he really believes it.
The Minister's blind spot will change in OOTP.
Snape competently handles the unconscious victims. I see no evidence that he abuses the unconscious Sirius. It makes me wonder why he had goaded him in the Shack.
Another reminder of Harry's poor eyesight.
Of course Snape's cover story for the trio allows people to discount what they say.
Snape considers Sirius' trick to be attempted murder. I'd be ticced, too.
"He had expected Dumbledore to pull some amazing solution out of the air. But no...Their last hope was gone." A pretty clear statement of why Dumbledore had to die. For Harry to mature, and take on his responsibility, he has to look for the solution himself. The effect is somewhat spoiled since Dumbledore does offer a solution.
7th floor, 13th window. Isn't Harry's vault at Gringott's 713? Or was it 711?
Not being seen while time traveling can't be literally correct. Hermione was surely seen in all of her classes and Harry does see himself with no obvious negative ill effect.
"The Forbidden Forest gilded once more in gold." Isn't this redundant.
JKR spends quite a bit of time their path. She must have a reason but it is lost on me. I can't keep the geography straight.
Does Dumbledore know what is happening?
Sirius "bounded out from the roots of the Willow." I missed that.
Harry says weird a couple of times. Possible a reference to something Macbeth. Alas, I haven't read Macbeth since the 60's.
It is emphasized that it would have taken a really powerful wizard to chase off the Dementors.
Innocent lives saved by Harry: Buckbeak, Sirius, Hermione and Harry. Peter was already saved (sort of, dratted time travel!), but his innocence is up for debate. Harry is the saviour. (My passing reference to the theme that cannot be discussed.)
A white stag plays a part in Arthurian legend. From an Arthur site of uncertain reliability "It was said that whoever hunted down a white stag could kiss the loveliest girl in Arthur's court." Another such site says "The sight of this creature has become synonymous with the arrival of a message from the Otherworld."
I never could picture how Harry rapped on a window, and Sirius climbed out onto a creature with beating wings. Even head to the window would seem to be difficult.
I guess that this rescue is a tad similar to the rescue of Harry in COS. People magically flying rescuing a prisoner from an upper story window.
"You are--truly your father's son." I hope that this becomes clearer in DH. If James was such a big hero I wonder why Hermione has never mentioned reading about him.
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Choices - Jun 23, 2007 11:18 am (#217 of 257)
I don't think it's that James was such a big hero, but it is the sort of wild, wacky, daring thing that James would have loved doing himself - flying Buckbeak up to the seventh floor window and rescueing someone right out from under the MOM's nose. It would have been great fun - a thrilling adventure.
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PatPat - Jun 23, 2007 5:16 pm (#218 of 257)
7th floor, 13th window. Isn't Harry's vault at Gringott's 713? Or was it 711?
I believe 713 was the vault that the Philosopher's Stone was in. Interesting.
I agree with Choices that the adventure would have appealed to James, but I also think that James would totally risk his life to save someone. Despite what we see in OoP, I believe James to have been a good and noble person. Dumbledore indicates such at the end of PoA. I believe this is what Sirius meant.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jun 23, 2007 6:19 pm (#219 of 257)
Steve, Harry's patronus the silver stag in a way reminds me of the Questing Beast of Arthurian legend, because, like the Questing Beast, Harry's patronus can never be captured.
Also the strength of the Questing Beast reminds me of the strength of Harry's patronus.
The description of the questing beast is also interesting it is described as having a serpent's head the body of a leopard, its hind legs are those of a lion while its fore legs are those of deer.
So the questing beast could be connected to Slytherin, Gryffindor, and James Potter although, I wonder who the leopard could symbolize?
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Uncle Brad - Jun 23, 2007 8:25 pm (#220 of 257)
I don't know if Snape really believed his cover story or not, but I think his practice at being a spy would put him in the position of coming up with a story that would sound not only plausible, but likely. In this case he needed to make it look like he was not just knocked out by kids, but by kids under some ones control just to make himself look better. He seems very oily to the minister, but when the kids start their version, he becomes very angry. I figured it was because he hated Sirius enough to want him demented. I never noticed the bit about him taking care of Sirius without abusing the opportunity. Interesting possibilities there.
The path laid out for the time turned Harry & Hermione I think was put in to show they were not likely to run into themselves. I think they made exceptional time taking the long way around to Hagrids and still arriving at the same time as their original selves.
I think the warning about not being seen is a warning about not confronting yourself. As Steve indicated, Hermione was seen time turned all year by others (although they seem to not have known she was doing this) and Harry sees himself at a distance. I think the description that Hermione gave for Harry bursting into Hagrid's hut was an accurate guess of what would probably happen to someone who doesn't know better. I wonder if Hermioine ever bumped into herself in her time turns. She at least would know the other was a time turned version.
I agree with the version that James would have risked his life to save someone (even Snape), but it would be the adventure and risk that would have appealed to James as well, and is likely what Sirius remembers most of his friend - their adventures together.
The white stag is also found in the Narnia books, and was the beast that led the children back to their own world.
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Mrs Brisbee - Jun 23, 2007 9:44 pm (#221 of 257)
I think Snape had good reason to change his plan and take Sirius to the castle instead of the dementors. He was knocked out in the Shrieking Shack, but then wakes up on the grounds to see about a hundred dementors going away. Lupin is missing; and Ron, Harry, and Hermione are unconscious. First off, what is he to do with the unconscious children? Leave them where they lie, or take them with him out to the dementors instead of straight to the hospital wing? He might have taken them along and got away with it, but it might have required some explaining-- second of all, Lupin is gone. Half his reason for going to the dementors straight away is missing. Sirius will get his soul sucked out anyway, but Snape's chance to get the same done to Lupin has disappeared into the night. At this point, may as well do things by the book, and go through the Ministry-- and get Ministry recognition for his talent to boot. Third, Snape just saw about one hundred dementors back off from something. It's a good call to say someone else is out there, and may be watching. It might even be Dumbledore, one person who has proved he is powerful enough to drive away a multitude of dementors. So go up to the castle to be on the safe side. Sirius will get his soul sucked out anyway, so why not?
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Steve Newton - Jun 24, 2007 5:26 am (#222 of 257)
Brad-"I wonder if Hermioine ever bumped into herself in her time turns." Good question.
Mrs. B-"It's a good call to say someone else is out there, and may be watching. It might even be Dumbledore, one person who has proved he is powerful enough to drive away a multitude of dementors." Good observation and I think that the quick thinking Snape would figure it out.
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legolas returns - Jun 24, 2007 11:23 am (#223 of 257)
I bet he didnt think it was Harry "mediocre to the last degree" Potter.
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Uncle Brad - Jun 24, 2007 5:43 pm (#224 of 257)
Mrs. Brisbee, the only person with Snape when he waks up is the unconcious Ron. Harry & Hermione are with Sirius and the dementors. I figured Snape saw the dementors head towards the lake & Sirius and then followed them, trying to catch Sirius himself. But before he got there, that annoyingly powerful wizard drove off the dementors so all he found was an unconcious Harry, Hermione, and Sirius. I have yet to figure out why he treated Sirius nice enough to put him on a stretcher (Sirius didn't do that for him), but the idea that the powerful wizard might have been Dumbledore is a good one. Snape would be afraid enough of being found mistreating anyone with Dumbledore around. So he goes and magics the four up to the castle and makes up his tale (or misreasons it from what he thought he knew) on the way.
So what happened to Crookshanks? Was there not a pet stretcher for him?
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Mrs Brisbee - Jun 25, 2007 3:54 am (#225 of 257)
I'd forgotten about Crookshanks. He wasn't up in the hospital wing. Maybe he was sent to Hagrid for animal healing.
Snape believes Sirius guilty of attempted murder for the werewolf incident. He believes Lupin and James were also guilty in the attempt. In the hospital wing, Snape argues with Dumbledore. Dumbledore puts an end to the arguing with "My memory is as good as it ever was, Severus..." I think this is another indication that there was more to that incident than we've been told. If Snape believed that they tried to murder him, how did Dumbledore make Snape keep quiet about the whole thing back then? What happened to Sirius? No one makes any comment on any punishment being meted out. Lupin said Dumbledore made Snape keep quiet about him being a werewolf, but why would Snape comply?
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Soul Search - Jun 25, 2007 7:06 am (#226 of 257)
Mrs Brisbee,
"... Dumbledore made Snape keep quiet about him being a werewolf, but why would Snape comply?"
The relating of the werewolf incident seems to establish that Snape and Dumbledore had a relationship at that time, when Snape was a student at Hogwarts, that went beyond Headmaster/Student.
I doubt Dumbledore would resort to threats, "tell about Lupin and you will be expelled," it is just not his style.
I am trying to recall if PoA has any more hints of a Snape/Dumbledore relationship.
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Mrs Brisbee - Jun 25, 2007 11:17 am (#227 of 257)
I was wondering if Snape might have done something atrocious while at school, too, and Dumbledore gave him a second chance back then. Like use Sectumsempra on a fellow student or something. I just get the suspicion that for some reason Snape couldn't complain about Dumbledore's edict, because it would have been like the pot calling the kettle black.
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Soul Search - Jun 25, 2007 2:24 pm (#228 of 257)
I wonder if there wasn't something in the boxes of infractions Harry had to copy, but he just hadn't got to it yet. It seemed Snape set up the detentions to show Harry what a bully James and Sirius were, but maybe he slipped up, or something. Alas, nothing came of it.
Pardon me, I neglected to note the thread title. Back to PoA.
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Choices - Jun 25, 2007 6:48 pm (#229 of 257)
Mrs. Brisbee - "Like use Sectumsempra on a fellow student...."
In Snape's Worst Memory we did see Snape possibly use Sectumsempra on James, but we don't have any hint that Dumbledore found out about it.
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Steve Newton - Jun 26, 2007 4:30 am (#230 of 257)
SS, in fact the cards that Harry works on in HBP may indeed have the more of the story. Harry had a good chance to find out more about his father and didn't take it.
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Mrs Brisbee - Jun 26, 2007 6:17 am (#231 of 257)
That detention file cards thing never went anywhere. Maybe it will be revisited, and something significant will be gleaned about Snape, or James. Or someone else entirely.
In Snape's Worst Memory we did see Snape possibly use Sectumsempra on James, but we don't have any hint that Dumbledore found out about it.--Choices
True. So we know Snape did use the spell on at least one fellow student. I was thinking of something a little more spectacular, like what Harry did to Draco with the spell. But in Harry's case didn't the whole school know about it, or am I misremembering? Also against my idea is that I don't know how Dumbledore could cover up something like that. But then, I don't know how he hushed up Sirius's attack on Snape. There must have been something that compelled Snape to keep quiet.
"He had expected Dumbledore to pull some amazing solution out of the air. But no...Their last hope was gone." A pretty clear statement of why Dumbledore had to die. For Harry to mature, and take on his responsibility, he has to look for the solution himself. The effect is somewhat spoiled since Dumbledore does offer a solution.--Steve Newton
Just wanted to say that I agree with you. Isn't this the last book that Dumbledore is able to pull out the last minute solution to save the day?
Harry says weird a couple of times. Possible a reference to something Macbeth. Alas, I haven't read Macbeth since the 60's.
LOL, I'd missed that reference. "Weird" from the word "wyrd", "fate" or "destiny". "Wyrd" is from "urthr", which means "future", and was the name of one of the Norns. Rowling's having fun with words.
I've been avoiding discussing time travel because of the exploding head issue, but I suppose I should weigh in on it. I don't think "you must not be seen" is literal. Obviously the actions of Time-Turned Harry and Hermione effect the destiny of lots of people. Harry even sees himself and takes action based on what he saw himself do in the future. In this version, the past and present fit together seamlessly. But Rowling also lets us know that it is possible for it not to work out that way-- the past and present can fracture. Hermione has to keep reminding Harry not to interfere with things, so it is possible that he could have chosen to even though his past self didn't witness that happening. It is possible for a Time-Turned wizard to kill his past self-- definitely breaking the seamlessness of the two time lines. Practically, I'm not sure what it all means. Metaphorically, I think Rowling is showing the differences between making reasoned, sound choices and making rash, bad choices. The Time-Turned Harry and Hermione have the advantage of being able to act while having a broad knowledge of what is currently happening and what everyone will do. Knowledge gives them power. Contrast this with the events in the Shrieking Shack, where they were sorting out of what happened 12 years go. If only a few people had had a little more knowledge back 12 years ago, that mess could have been sorted out then and injustice avoided.
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Steve Newton - Jun 26, 2007 6:46 am (#232 of 257)
Dumbledore sort of saves the day in OOTP. If he hadn't been there I don;t know if Trixie would have just left or if she and Voldemort would have turned on Harry. Harry did have places to escape to.
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Mrs Brisbee - Jun 26, 2007 9:46 am (#233 of 257)
I didn't put what I meant clearly. After the end of GoF, Dumbledore is no longer seen as omniscient or omnipotent by Harry. Dumbledore's still amazing, mind you, but on a more human scale.
Here at the end of PoA, he's still omniscient, but not omnipotent. Dumbledore knows what going on, and he has a plan. But he can't make the Ministry see the truth. That's clearly defined as outside his power. Dumbledore reminds Hermione that she is the one who has the power to save Sirius, and gives her tacit approval to act against Ministry laws to do so. This is the first time that the trio (or parts thereof) have acted out of bounds with Dumbledore's endorsement, and Dumbledore is the brains of the operation, but Harry and Hermione are the ones with the capabilities to carry out the plan.
But, yes, Dumbledore needed to die eventually for plot reasons, because he is too brilliant and too powerful, and would always be seen as Voldemort's primary opposition, not Harry.
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Solitaire - Jun 26, 2007 12:29 pm (#234 of 257)
With Dumbledore dead, I believe Voldemort will show himself more openly, and he may get careless.
This is the first time that the trio (or parts thereof) have acted out of bounds with Dumbledore's endorsement
Is it? They went "out of bounds," so to speak, when they decided to save the Philospher's Stone ... and I rather think Dumbledore had already realized Harry was going to go after it at some point. But Dumbledore did need to be "out of the picture," so to speak, in order for HRH to make the decision to act ... just as he was "out of the picture" when Harry and Ron went into the Chamber. They were only able to take the steps when they believed Dumbledore was not around to act.
I hope this makes sense, because I feel it fits with your statement: Dumbledore needed to die eventually for plot reasons, because he is too brilliant and too powerful, and would always be seen as Voldemort's primary opposition, not Harry.
Solitaire (who doesn't want to think about the Time Turner)
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Steve Newton - Jun 27, 2007 11:34 am (#235 of 257)
Chapter 22-Owl Post Again (The last chapter.)
Hiding in plain sight. "Unless you are suggesting that Harry and Hermione are able to be in two places at once." I wonder how often Dumbledore has told the truth while deceiving.
If Fudge thinks that dragons would be good guards it suggests that some must be trainable, at the least.
Hagrid did keep the secret of Lupin being a werewolf.
Nobody actually says that Peter has a life debt, only a debt. A debt leaves a bond.
Dumbledore knew James well after Hogwarts.
I remember one case where somebody says that Harry looks like James but doesn't mention the eyes. I wish that I could remember who and in which book.
Dumbledore did not know of the animagi training. In GOF he voices surprise on hearing about the Map.
If I went off I might think that finding his father inside himself had something to do with the scar. Perhaps an accidentally created Horcrux for James.
"Harry couldn't help feeling miserable when he thought of the home he might have had." "It was now impossible." Sad
The owl feels like a very fluffy Snitch. He seems to be the owl equivalent of of Colin Creevey.
Ron protects the owl.
Harry delivers a pretty good non-threat threat.
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Mrs Brisbee - Jun 28, 2007 5:32 am (#236 of 257)
Is it? They went "out of bounds," so to speak, when they decided to save the Philosopher's Stone ... and I rather think Dumbledore had already realized Harry was going to go after it at some point.--Solitaire
I meant that Harry and Hermione knew they had Dumbledore's approval before they set out on their timely adventure. Dumbledore may well have known they were up to things in the earlier books, and approved of their actions, but they didn't know that until after the fact. In PoA they are not just working towards the same goals as Dumbledore, they are working with Dumbledore.
Something else I wanted to note about "Hermione's Secret" is that again we see that because Hermione is trustworthy, she is in a position to help. She was able to get the Time Turner because Professor McGonagall trusts her. Because Hermione reserves her rules breaking for times when it really matters, instead of just for fun, she can help when rules need to be broken to save lives.
On to "Owl Post":
Hiding in plain sight. "Unless you are suggesting that Harry and Hermione are able to be in two places at once." I wonder how often Dumbledore has told the truth while deceiving.-- Steve Newton
Dumbledore is a master at misleading statements. But I thought this was a risky jest. Surely the Minister of Magic knows about Time Turners, and that students sometimes have them. Wouldn't the staff know who had them? Did Snape?
Nobody actually says that Peter has a life debt, only a debt. A debt leaves a bond.
Dumbledore does say the bond is created when one wizard save's another's life. He doesn't say "life debt". Must be that's a Lexicon coined term. But I think it is clear that it is the saved life that creates the debt.
Harry and Hermione have to get back to the hospital wing or something terrible will happen. It sounds to me if you can't get back to your starting place at the end of Time Travelling, then for some reason it doesn't work right.
Harry and Hermione left and make it back at 11:55 p.m., it is still "before midnight" like the Prophecy said. For some reason I think the time must be significant, but Pettigrew escaped about an hour earlier. Harry and Hermione have seen the events of the night twice over, though, from different perspectives.
Snape quickly jumps to the conclusion that Harry had something to do with Sirius's escape. Well, he was right, but it still is quite a leap.
I suppose that the dementors reported to Fudge about wanting to perform the Kiss on Harry. I can't think how Fudge would have known otherwise.
Dumbledore knew it was Harry's Patronus that drove off all those dementors before being told.
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Uncle Brad - Jun 29, 2007 7:09 pm (#237 of 257)
Going back a few posts I like the idea that Dumbledore has information on Snape that makes him keep quiet about Lupin as a Werewolf while they are students. Unfortunatly it didn't hold as Severus 'let slip' about Lupin's condition at the end of the book.
I am surprised that Snape doesn't know about the time turner. He is usually brighter than that. I would figure all the teachers would know about Hermione's course load, and hence the time turner. I can only see it as part of the plot holes that force Hermione to have a time turner to take all the classes while others seemed to manage without one.
Snape is again somewhat unhinged that Sirius is one up on him. He does seem to hold grudges for a long time. he is overly ready to blame Harry (even if he is right).
The predictions and saving Peter's life all lead up to future books.
Steve - one of the easyest ways to lie is to tell the truth in such a manner as no one will believe you. I think Dumbledore has mastered this art. I think Dumbledore knew James after Hogwarts becasue James was in the Order. There also might be some unknown connection to the two also, since Dumbledore had James' invisibility cloak.
Mrs. Brisbee - I think that Harry & Hermione had to get back to the hospital wing because if they were not, then they would be the prime suspects in Sirius's escape. Being in a locked room with Madame Pomfrey is an air-tight alibi. I think Hermione has worked all that out and worries about it in the book, knowing the consequences. I doubt that the time turner insists that you return to your original starting point. It would increase the likelyhood of being seen twice at the same time. One of the bad things about the movie was how it kept showing Hermione poping into a scene. It should have shown her popping out (like the scene where she and Harry disappear from the hospital wing). The only way she would pop in would be to activate the time turner from the same location she poped into. I would think this would be difficult, since one of the scenes showed her popping into Trewlaney's classroom, which would mean she had to be in the classroom when she activated the time turner. Of course, it could all be magic that I just don't understand...
Both Lupin and Dumbledore know it is Harry that drove away the dementors.
How does one pass a final exam with 320%? Wizarding grading is beyond me.
As far as the non-threat. I am sure had Harry written, Sirius would be on the Dursley's doorstep ready to hex them into next week if needed. Harry is smarter than that, wanting Sirius to remain safe and hidden from the ministry.
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Mrs Brisbee - Jun 30, 2007 5:53 am (#238 of 257)
I think that Harry & Hermione had to get back to the hospital wing because if they were not, then they would be the prime suspects in Sirius's escape. Being in a locked room with Madame Pomfrey is an air-tight alibi. I think Hermione has worked all that out and worries about it in the book, knowing the consequences. I doubt that the time turner insists that you return to your original starting point.-- Uncle Brad
That could of been what Hermione meant, but it seems to me that that isn't what Harry was asking. He knows as well as Hermione that if they are caught they will be prime suspects in Sirius's escape, and it just didn't sound like a rhetorical question. But, since it isn't clear what exactly they meant, I suppose it's not much help using it to try to figure out what's going on.
I do think that it is important to return to the starting point for some reason. It was odd that Harry and Hermione had to start in the entrance hall rather than in the hospital wing. The only reason I can think of is that was because the entrance hall was where their past selves were going to be in just a moment after they arrived. I think my idea is supported by Hermione knowing they had to move very quickly to hide. She knew exactly what was happening. Their having to make it back to their starting point at the end would mirror that, providing a kind of closed loop. But I don't suppose it isn't all that important.
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Steve Newton - Jun 30, 2007 7:00 am (#239 of 257)
UB, you say "I am sure had Harry written, Sirius would be on the Dursley's doorstep ready to hex them into next week if needed." I think that Sonny Corleone would agree.
Telling the truth so that no one believes you. I'm pretty good at that. (Also, answering questions with answers that sound like they are responsive, but aren't.)
Starting and ending time travel at the same place must be the way it goes. I hope this does not become important.
I am rereading Connie Willis' 'To Say Nothing of the Dog' and it involves much time travel. If time travel would cause an incongruity then you can't travel there or slippage would occur and you would show up too early late or far away. Not applicable here, but a very good, and funny, book. It even introduced me to Jerome K. Jerome's 'Three Men in a Boat: to say nothing of the dog.' (I think this is available online at Project Gutenberg since is was written about 1880.)
Sorry to wonder so.
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Mrs Brisbee - Jun 30, 2007 7:35 am (#240 of 257)
But I don't suppose it isn't all that important.-- me
Sorry. I'd just been reading a book on the history of the English language, and one of the chapters was on grammar changes in the 17th century. It had a bunch of examples of how multiple negatives were acceptable in the 16th century and earlier, and I think it rubbed off on me in the wrong way.
What I meant was that I don't think it will be important. I don't think that the series resolution will hinge on time travel, and thank goodness for that!
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journeymom - Jun 30, 2007 11:34 am (#241 of 257)
Considering learned physicists cannot agree that travel back into time is at all possible, there is no way to finally answer what would happen to Harry and Hermione physically if they hadn't got back to the Hospital Wing on time.
But in the movie, at least, Dumbledore and Hermione both give the impression that horrible things happen when a person messes up using a time turner. I don't think they were just saying Harry and Hermione wouldn't have an alibi. The screen writers must have had a devil of a time figuring out what perspective to take with that whole story line. They must have had this same conversation we're having now. Notice that the guy in the Leaky Cauldron who was magically stirring his coffee with one hand was reading Hawkings "A Brief History of Time" in the other hand.
I read a fan fic once where Hermione had an accident with the time turner. It broke and so she got stuck in a time loop. Even trying to change the circumstances of the event didn't prevent it from happening; she never escaped her 'fate'. It was one of the most depressing fan fics I ever read.
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Soul Search - Jul 1, 2007 7:34 am (#242 of 257)
My read has been that the whole purpose of the time travel in PoA was so Harry could see himself and think he was seeing his father. The James/Harry theme is very strong in PoA, concluding with Sirius' remark to Harry that he is "truely your father's son."
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Uncle Brad - Jul 1, 2007 6:01 pm (#243 of 257)
Mrs. Brisbee, I agree that time travel seems to have run its couse in the books. If it is a major part of Deathly Hallows, I will be surprised.
Soul Search, your take on the theme in the book, Harry being like his father makes a lot of sense. I think we saw a bit about him being like his mother in Half Blood Prince. I think it will be the combination of their traits that will let Harry vanquish Voldemort.
Steve - a comment you had earlier. Calling Bellatrix Trixie makes me think you had best watch out for hit wizards as they come knocking at your door. I can see her blowing a fuse if someone were to call her that. (And it took me a moment to figure out who you were talking about).
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Steve Newton - Jul 1, 2007 8:25 pm (#244 of 257)
While calling Bella Trixie is, in a small way, a joke, I think that it also fits what we know of the Black family. Narcissa is Cissy. It only seems a small step, to me, that Bellatrix would be shortened to Trixie. Maybe because I watched Jackie Gleason as a kid, and his friend Norton's wife was Trixie, it doesn't sound so outlandish to me.
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Jenniffler - Jul 1, 2007 9:48 pm (#245 of 257)
Hermione's Secret is the chapter that distinguished the Harry Potter series from all similarly age geared literature for me. The audacity to sanction teenagers to pull off time travel was mind-blowing. The description of the time travel might be quirky, but the execution of the overlap was flawless. I enjoyed being with Harry and Hermione as they brushed off their assumptions to see their power for influence clearly. I remember having the book in my hand as I turned to this chapter and distinctly thinking, "Wait! There's too much book left." And each page after that seemed like a gift, re-working my notions until they aligned with the grand scheme of a bigger and better plan than I could have comprehend previously.
The realization that Harry had much of his father in him made me so proud. I honestly felt as if I was going to see an embodiment of James, but that was for a later book or two.
I will now emarassingly admit I thought there was a direct correlation between the names Petti-grew and Long-Bottom.(silly, I know) And my husband told me I was missing the point as I was thinking petticoat, not pettiness. All I saw was the parallel tragedy, not the distinct difference in principles. It is good, in this instance, that I was proven wrong.
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Steve Newton - Jul 2, 2007 4:42 am (#246 of 257)
Jennifler, I also remember that I thought that there was a lot of book left. For me it was when I was sucked into thinking that the Shrieking Shack was going to be the climax. I can be such a sucker.
I am going to try over the next couple of days to read over this thread and see if anything comes together for me. Although I tried to read each chapter with an open mind I didn't read the book straight through so I might have missed some interchapter connections.
This is also the first book which I listened to and was able to retain enough to put it into words when I got to those chapters. Amazing.
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Mrs Brisbee - Jul 3, 2007 10:44 pm (#247 of 257)
I found this quote from Rowling in the World Day Book Chat, March 4, 2004
Kyla: What made Sirius decide to send Snape to the Willow?
JK Rowling replies -> Because Sirius loathed Snape (and the feeling was entirely mutual). You'll find out more about this in due course.
So it seems that there IS more to find out about why Sirius hated Snape. Must be something major!
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journeymom - Jul 3, 2007 11:44 pm (#248 of 257)
Maybe Snape got Regulus mixed up with the Death Eaters.
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Luna Logic - Jul 4, 2007 12:27 am (#249 of 257)
Edited by Jul 4, 2007 12:29 am
Mrs Brisbee : it seems that there IS more to find out about why Sirius hated Snape. Must be something major!
That's a promising information! Journeymom: Maybe Snape got Regulus mixed up with the Death Eaters.
Good idea... It could explain the "silence" about Regulus in the books.
Are the ages fitting? - Where they at Hogwarts in the same years?
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PatPat - Jul 4, 2007 11:33 am (#250 of 257)
Wow! Thanks for the quote, Mrs. Brisbee. I always wondered why Sirius did that. I mean we have seen that he and James were bullies and practical jokers at that age, but this seemed awful drastic. Snape could have been killed. There has to be more to it. I like the idea about Snape getting Regulus involved in the Death Eaters, but, if this is why Sirius hated Snape so much at 15 years old, then Regulus joined up awfully early. He was supposed to be younger than Sirius.
Choices - Jun 19, 2007 9:20 am (#201 of 257)
When Lily stood up for Snape against James, she was with a group of friends and left them to confront James. Then when Hagrid made the photo album for Harry, he states he wrote to all James and Lily's friends to ask for photographs. I think Lily had her own friends, but they just aren't as important to the story as Sirius and Lupin so we don't hear much about them. When James and Lily chose a godfather for Harry, they were either in hiding or preparing to go into hiding and the less people who knew about their Voldemort problem and their location, the better. Sirius was there, he had been the best man at their wedding and he and James were so close that he was the logical choice for godfather. I think Lily may have just gone along with whatever James wanted.
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Mrs Brisbee - Jun 19, 2007 9:30 am (#202 of 257)
Yes, the photo album does prove she had friends, possibly even as an adult. I'd forgotten about that. And certainly Sirius could be her best friend for plot reasons only, though I find that an unsatisfactory explanation. Surely Lily would have reasons for considering Sirius to be her best friend, above any friends she already had. I'm just saying that maybe there is a reason, an idea I hadn't considered before.
I think Lily may have just gone along with whatever James wanted.
That is possible. I do worry about Lily turning out to have been a doormat. Child Lily doesn't seem to have been one, but I do worry about adult Lily.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jun 19, 2007 9:59 am (#203 of 257)
Steve,
The chief divinity of the Norse pantheon, the foremost of the Aesir. Odin is a son of Bor and Bestla. He is called Alfadir, Allfather, for he is indeed father of the gods. . .Odin is a god of war and death, but also the god of poetry and wisdom. He hung for nine days, pierced by his own spear, on the world tree. Here he learned nine powerful songs, and eighteen runes. Odin can make the dead speak to question the wisest amongst them. . . .. Odin's attributes are the spear Gungnir, which never misses its target, the ring Draupnir, from which every ninth night eight new rings appear, . . . He is also called Othinn, Wodan and Wotan. Some of the aliases he uses to travel incognito among mortals are Vak and Valtam. Wednesday is named after him (Wodan).
Old Norse: Odínn Odin." Encyclopedia Mythica from Encyclopedia Mythica Online. <[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] [Accessed June 18, 2007].
Hermione is connected with Odin beginning in PoA through her studies of ancient runes.
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journeymom - Jun 19, 2007 5:30 pm (#204 of 257)
There is no way on earth Lily was a doormat.
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Choices - Jun 19, 2007 5:51 pm (#205 of 257)
I agree, I don't see Lily as a doormat, but when you are grown up and married, you pick your battles. This issue may not have mattered greatly to Lily or perhaps there wasn't anyone else she liked any better than Sirius for the position of godfather. James and Sirius were very close, best mates, and Lily loved James, so perhaps she trusted his judgement in this.
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Mrs Brisbee - Jun 19, 2007 6:37 pm (#206 of 257)
The welfare of her child not matter?! No, I can't see a woman just going along with whomsoever her husband picked out unless she is a doormat. She should trust her judgment. They should choose together. There is always the chance that Sirius actually was her best friend and she deemed him worthy by her own judgment.
I don't know. It could just be Plot Reasons --or-- maybe for some reason Lily really did think Sirius was the bee's knees. That's what Rowling seems to be implying.
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PatPat - Jun 19, 2007 6:44 pm (#207 of 257)
I agree with journeymom and Choices. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that Lily was a strong capable person her whole life. No way she became a doormat after marrying James. Jo told us that Harry's christening was a very quiet and rushed affair because of the danger. I'm sure the choice of Sirius as godfather was for safety and convenience reasons.
EDIT: I'm not sure that Sirius had to be Lily's best friend simply because she may have trusted him. I'm sure she trusted him as much as James did. This doesn't mean that he was her best friend. Simply that she thought he was trustworthy enough to take care of Harry if something happened to her and James. We don't know what happened between their fifth year that we saw in OoP and James and Lily's marriage. certainly there are many ways Sirius could have proven himself worthy.
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Mrs Brisbee - Jun 19, 2007 6:52 pm (#208 of 257)
I guess I don't understand what all of you are saying. Do you all mean that you think Lily went along with James's choice of Sirius because it was convenient, or do you think Lily herself saw Sirius as the best person to be godparent to her child? Was Sirius really her best friend as well as James's? It seems to me that that is what Rowling is implying.
Edit: PatPat was editing while I was typing! Thanks for clarifying! I don't know why if she had another best friend that person wouldn't be trusted enough to be a godparent or Secret Keeper, though. James's friends seemed to be the only only ones worth trusting. Rowling said if Sirius had a wife she would be the godmother. That points to Sirius actually being Lily's best friend.
Edit again:
Hermione is connected with Odin beginning in PoA through her studies of ancient runes.-- Nathan Zimmerman
Actually, that's a nifty connection. The dead do speak, in a manner of speaking. Peter Pettigrew comes back "alive", Sirius and Lupin speak of their past with James, and James will show himself through Harry via the stag Patronus.
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Uncle Brad - Jun 19, 2007 8:08 pm (#209 of 257)
Lily had a number of years to work with Sirius in the Order, so they may have become friends during that time. I do not think we have enough information to assume too much, but I think that Sirius was picked as godfather not only because he was James' best friend, but because he was also in the Order and secrecy, caution, and prudence were the operating terms of the day. It plays into if Sirius was married his wife would have been godmother. It works both as keeping those in the know small and keeping the godparents together to raise Harry if things went bad. The fact that one of Lily's friends was not picked as godmother or lone godparent might just mean that she had no close friends in the Order (other than Sirius), or her friends were not up to the possible task of raising a baby.
As many have said and I totally agree with - Lily is no doormat. I seem to remember in one of the books that Lily was not in favor of switching secret keepers or was in favor of Dumbledore instead. She finally relented to James reasoning that Sirius would rather die than give them up. I might be mistaken though. I doubt that she had any say-so about the switch to Peter as secret keeper. That seems to have been a decision of James and Sirius as a last bit of trickery on their part to fool everyone.
The information on Odin and the relationship to the Harry Potter saga is too deep for me. I went and read the entire Odin thread, but think that most of it could apply to any hero type story to some extent. I will leave that line of thinking to others for now.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jun 19, 2007 8:33 pm (#210 of 257)
Hermione is connected with Odin beginning in PoA through her studies of ancient runes.-- Nathan Zimmerman
Actually, that's a nifty connection. The dead do speak, in a manner of speaking. Peter Pettigrew comes back "alive", Sirius and Lupin speak of their past with James, and James will show himself through Harry via the stag Patronus.
Mrs. B., could all the examples you gave in your earlier post when taken in conjunction with what is known about ghosts, poltergeists, and portraits foreshadow the introduction of the Pensieve?
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Mrs Brisbee - Jun 20, 2007 9:51 am (#211 of 257)
Mrs. B., could all the examples you gave in your earlier post when taken in conjunction with what is known about ghosts, poltergeists, and portraits foreshadow the introduction of the Pensieve?
They all allow the Dead to speak in a way-- excepting poltergeists, who aren't an imprint of any specific person (I wonder if Peeves would fade away if the school remains closed? But I digress).
The past does keep coming to the present to set the record straight. The Pensieve is one more tool to do just that that Rowling will introduce in GoF. I expect the revelations of the past to continue to play a major role in the final book, too.
Edit: Does Yggrasil resemble the Whomping Willow at all? I know Yggdrasil isn't a willow, but doesn't its roots bind together the different worlds of Norse mythology, plus Odin hanged in it's branches and learned how to speak with the dead, and there's also some sort of stag that hangs out on the roof of Valhalla and eats the branches of the tree. My Norse mythology is a bit foggy.
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Choices - Jun 20, 2007 10:00 am (#212 of 257)
"I wonder if Peeves would fade away if the school remains closed?"
I feel sure that if all the kids were gone, Peeves would be no more.
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journeymom - Jun 20, 2007 11:56 am (#213 of 257)
Mrs B, that parallel between Yggdrasil and the Whomping Willow is pretty clever. I like it.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jun 20, 2007 2:32 pm (#214 of 257)
Yggrasil does bind the worlds together just as Hogwarts as whole binds the four houses into a whole.
In Norse mythology, Yggdrasil ("The Terrible One's Horse"), also called the World Tree, is the giant ash tree that links and shelters all the worlds. Beneath the three roots the realms of Asgard, Jotunheim, and Niflheim are located. Three wells lie at its base: the Well of Wisdom (Mímisbrunnr), guarded by Mimir; the Well of Fate (Urdarbrunnr), guarded by the Norns; and the Hvergelmir (Roaring Kettle), the source of many rivers. Four deer run across the branches of the tree and eat the buds; they represent the four winds. There are other inhabitants of the tree, such as the squirrel Ratatosk ("swift teeth"), a notorious gossip, and Vidofnir ("tree snake"), the golden cock that perches on the topmost bough. The roots are gnawed upon by Nidhogg and other serpents. On the day of Ragnarok, the fire giant Surt will set the tree on fire.
Other names for the tree include: Ask Yggdrasil, Hoddmimir's Wood, Laerad and Odin's Horse. "Yggdrasil." Encyclopedia Mythica from Encyclopedia Mythica Online. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] [Accessed June 20, 2007].
Old Norse: Mimameidr
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Mrs Brisbee - Jun 20, 2007 7:25 pm (#215 of 257)
Four deer run across the branches of the tree and eat the buds
Wow, that tree has one serious stag infestation!
The attending Norns are "Past, "Present", and "Future", appropriately enough.
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Steve Newton - Jun 23, 2007 9:14 am (#216 of 257)
Chapter 21-Hermione's Secret
Snape comes up with a cover story for the trio attacking him. Odd, unless he really believes it.
The Minister's blind spot will change in OOTP.
Snape competently handles the unconscious victims. I see no evidence that he abuses the unconscious Sirius. It makes me wonder why he had goaded him in the Shack.
Another reminder of Harry's poor eyesight.
Of course Snape's cover story for the trio allows people to discount what they say.
Snape considers Sirius' trick to be attempted murder. I'd be ticced, too.
"He had expected Dumbledore to pull some amazing solution out of the air. But no...Their last hope was gone." A pretty clear statement of why Dumbledore had to die. For Harry to mature, and take on his responsibility, he has to look for the solution himself. The effect is somewhat spoiled since Dumbledore does offer a solution.
7th floor, 13th window. Isn't Harry's vault at Gringott's 713? Or was it 711?
Not being seen while time traveling can't be literally correct. Hermione was surely seen in all of her classes and Harry does see himself with no obvious negative ill effect.
"The Forbidden Forest gilded once more in gold." Isn't this redundant.
JKR spends quite a bit of time their path. She must have a reason but it is lost on me. I can't keep the geography straight.
Does Dumbledore know what is happening?
Sirius "bounded out from the roots of the Willow." I missed that.
Harry says weird a couple of times. Possible a reference to something Macbeth. Alas, I haven't read Macbeth since the 60's.
It is emphasized that it would have taken a really powerful wizard to chase off the Dementors.
Innocent lives saved by Harry: Buckbeak, Sirius, Hermione and Harry. Peter was already saved (sort of, dratted time travel!), but his innocence is up for debate. Harry is the saviour. (My passing reference to the theme that cannot be discussed.)
A white stag plays a part in Arthurian legend. From an Arthur site of uncertain reliability "It was said that whoever hunted down a white stag could kiss the loveliest girl in Arthur's court." Another such site says "The sight of this creature has become synonymous with the arrival of a message from the Otherworld."
I never could picture how Harry rapped on a window, and Sirius climbed out onto a creature with beating wings. Even head to the window would seem to be difficult.
I guess that this rescue is a tad similar to the rescue of Harry in COS. People magically flying rescuing a prisoner from an upper story window.
"You are--truly your father's son." I hope that this becomes clearer in DH. If James was such a big hero I wonder why Hermione has never mentioned reading about him.
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Choices - Jun 23, 2007 11:18 am (#217 of 257)
I don't think it's that James was such a big hero, but it is the sort of wild, wacky, daring thing that James would have loved doing himself - flying Buckbeak up to the seventh floor window and rescueing someone right out from under the MOM's nose. It would have been great fun - a thrilling adventure.
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PatPat - Jun 23, 2007 5:16 pm (#218 of 257)
7th floor, 13th window. Isn't Harry's vault at Gringott's 713? Or was it 711?
I believe 713 was the vault that the Philosopher's Stone was in. Interesting.
I agree with Choices that the adventure would have appealed to James, but I also think that James would totally risk his life to save someone. Despite what we see in OoP, I believe James to have been a good and noble person. Dumbledore indicates such at the end of PoA. I believe this is what Sirius meant.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jun 23, 2007 6:19 pm (#219 of 257)
Steve, Harry's patronus the silver stag in a way reminds me of the Questing Beast of Arthurian legend, because, like the Questing Beast, Harry's patronus can never be captured.
Also the strength of the Questing Beast reminds me of the strength of Harry's patronus.
The description of the questing beast is also interesting it is described as having a serpent's head the body of a leopard, its hind legs are those of a lion while its fore legs are those of deer.
So the questing beast could be connected to Slytherin, Gryffindor, and James Potter although, I wonder who the leopard could symbolize?
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Uncle Brad - Jun 23, 2007 8:25 pm (#220 of 257)
I don't know if Snape really believed his cover story or not, but I think his practice at being a spy would put him in the position of coming up with a story that would sound not only plausible, but likely. In this case he needed to make it look like he was not just knocked out by kids, but by kids under some ones control just to make himself look better. He seems very oily to the minister, but when the kids start their version, he becomes very angry. I figured it was because he hated Sirius enough to want him demented. I never noticed the bit about him taking care of Sirius without abusing the opportunity. Interesting possibilities there.
The path laid out for the time turned Harry & Hermione I think was put in to show they were not likely to run into themselves. I think they made exceptional time taking the long way around to Hagrids and still arriving at the same time as their original selves.
I think the warning about not being seen is a warning about not confronting yourself. As Steve indicated, Hermione was seen time turned all year by others (although they seem to not have known she was doing this) and Harry sees himself at a distance. I think the description that Hermione gave for Harry bursting into Hagrid's hut was an accurate guess of what would probably happen to someone who doesn't know better. I wonder if Hermioine ever bumped into herself in her time turns. She at least would know the other was a time turned version.
I agree with the version that James would have risked his life to save someone (even Snape), but it would be the adventure and risk that would have appealed to James as well, and is likely what Sirius remembers most of his friend - their adventures together.
The white stag is also found in the Narnia books, and was the beast that led the children back to their own world.
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Mrs Brisbee - Jun 23, 2007 9:44 pm (#221 of 257)
I think Snape had good reason to change his plan and take Sirius to the castle instead of the dementors. He was knocked out in the Shrieking Shack, but then wakes up on the grounds to see about a hundred dementors going away. Lupin is missing; and Ron, Harry, and Hermione are unconscious. First off, what is he to do with the unconscious children? Leave them where they lie, or take them with him out to the dementors instead of straight to the hospital wing? He might have taken them along and got away with it, but it might have required some explaining-- second of all, Lupin is gone. Half his reason for going to the dementors straight away is missing. Sirius will get his soul sucked out anyway, but Snape's chance to get the same done to Lupin has disappeared into the night. At this point, may as well do things by the book, and go through the Ministry-- and get Ministry recognition for his talent to boot. Third, Snape just saw about one hundred dementors back off from something. It's a good call to say someone else is out there, and may be watching. It might even be Dumbledore, one person who has proved he is powerful enough to drive away a multitude of dementors. So go up to the castle to be on the safe side. Sirius will get his soul sucked out anyway, so why not?
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Steve Newton - Jun 24, 2007 5:26 am (#222 of 257)
Brad-"I wonder if Hermioine ever bumped into herself in her time turns." Good question.
Mrs. B-"It's a good call to say someone else is out there, and may be watching. It might even be Dumbledore, one person who has proved he is powerful enough to drive away a multitude of dementors." Good observation and I think that the quick thinking Snape would figure it out.
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legolas returns - Jun 24, 2007 11:23 am (#223 of 257)
I bet he didnt think it was Harry "mediocre to the last degree" Potter.
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Uncle Brad - Jun 24, 2007 5:43 pm (#224 of 257)
Mrs. Brisbee, the only person with Snape when he waks up is the unconcious Ron. Harry & Hermione are with Sirius and the dementors. I figured Snape saw the dementors head towards the lake & Sirius and then followed them, trying to catch Sirius himself. But before he got there, that annoyingly powerful wizard drove off the dementors so all he found was an unconcious Harry, Hermione, and Sirius. I have yet to figure out why he treated Sirius nice enough to put him on a stretcher (Sirius didn't do that for him), but the idea that the powerful wizard might have been Dumbledore is a good one. Snape would be afraid enough of being found mistreating anyone with Dumbledore around. So he goes and magics the four up to the castle and makes up his tale (or misreasons it from what he thought he knew) on the way.
So what happened to Crookshanks? Was there not a pet stretcher for him?
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Mrs Brisbee - Jun 25, 2007 3:54 am (#225 of 257)
I'd forgotten about Crookshanks. He wasn't up in the hospital wing. Maybe he was sent to Hagrid for animal healing.
Snape believes Sirius guilty of attempted murder for the werewolf incident. He believes Lupin and James were also guilty in the attempt. In the hospital wing, Snape argues with Dumbledore. Dumbledore puts an end to the arguing with "My memory is as good as it ever was, Severus..." I think this is another indication that there was more to that incident than we've been told. If Snape believed that they tried to murder him, how did Dumbledore make Snape keep quiet about the whole thing back then? What happened to Sirius? No one makes any comment on any punishment being meted out. Lupin said Dumbledore made Snape keep quiet about him being a werewolf, but why would Snape comply?
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Soul Search - Jun 25, 2007 7:06 am (#226 of 257)
Mrs Brisbee,
"... Dumbledore made Snape keep quiet about him being a werewolf, but why would Snape comply?"
The relating of the werewolf incident seems to establish that Snape and Dumbledore had a relationship at that time, when Snape was a student at Hogwarts, that went beyond Headmaster/Student.
I doubt Dumbledore would resort to threats, "tell about Lupin and you will be expelled," it is just not his style.
I am trying to recall if PoA has any more hints of a Snape/Dumbledore relationship.
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Mrs Brisbee - Jun 25, 2007 11:17 am (#227 of 257)
I was wondering if Snape might have done something atrocious while at school, too, and Dumbledore gave him a second chance back then. Like use Sectumsempra on a fellow student or something. I just get the suspicion that for some reason Snape couldn't complain about Dumbledore's edict, because it would have been like the pot calling the kettle black.
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Soul Search - Jun 25, 2007 2:24 pm (#228 of 257)
I wonder if there wasn't something in the boxes of infractions Harry had to copy, but he just hadn't got to it yet. It seemed Snape set up the detentions to show Harry what a bully James and Sirius were, but maybe he slipped up, or something. Alas, nothing came of it.
Pardon me, I neglected to note the thread title. Back to PoA.
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Choices - Jun 25, 2007 6:48 pm (#229 of 257)
Mrs. Brisbee - "Like use Sectumsempra on a fellow student...."
In Snape's Worst Memory we did see Snape possibly use Sectumsempra on James, but we don't have any hint that Dumbledore found out about it.
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Steve Newton - Jun 26, 2007 4:30 am (#230 of 257)
SS, in fact the cards that Harry works on in HBP may indeed have the more of the story. Harry had a good chance to find out more about his father and didn't take it.
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Mrs Brisbee - Jun 26, 2007 6:17 am (#231 of 257)
That detention file cards thing never went anywhere. Maybe it will be revisited, and something significant will be gleaned about Snape, or James. Or someone else entirely.
In Snape's Worst Memory we did see Snape possibly use Sectumsempra on James, but we don't have any hint that Dumbledore found out about it.--Choices
True. So we know Snape did use the spell on at least one fellow student. I was thinking of something a little more spectacular, like what Harry did to Draco with the spell. But in Harry's case didn't the whole school know about it, or am I misremembering? Also against my idea is that I don't know how Dumbledore could cover up something like that. But then, I don't know how he hushed up Sirius's attack on Snape. There must have been something that compelled Snape to keep quiet.
"He had expected Dumbledore to pull some amazing solution out of the air. But no...Their last hope was gone." A pretty clear statement of why Dumbledore had to die. For Harry to mature, and take on his responsibility, he has to look for the solution himself. The effect is somewhat spoiled since Dumbledore does offer a solution.--Steve Newton
Just wanted to say that I agree with you. Isn't this the last book that Dumbledore is able to pull out the last minute solution to save the day?
Harry says weird a couple of times. Possible a reference to something Macbeth. Alas, I haven't read Macbeth since the 60's.
LOL, I'd missed that reference. "Weird" from the word "wyrd", "fate" or "destiny". "Wyrd" is from "urthr", which means "future", and was the name of one of the Norns. Rowling's having fun with words.
I've been avoiding discussing time travel because of the exploding head issue, but I suppose I should weigh in on it. I don't think "you must not be seen" is literal. Obviously the actions of Time-Turned Harry and Hermione effect the destiny of lots of people. Harry even sees himself and takes action based on what he saw himself do in the future. In this version, the past and present fit together seamlessly. But Rowling also lets us know that it is possible for it not to work out that way-- the past and present can fracture. Hermione has to keep reminding Harry not to interfere with things, so it is possible that he could have chosen to even though his past self didn't witness that happening. It is possible for a Time-Turned wizard to kill his past self-- definitely breaking the seamlessness of the two time lines. Practically, I'm not sure what it all means. Metaphorically, I think Rowling is showing the differences between making reasoned, sound choices and making rash, bad choices. The Time-Turned Harry and Hermione have the advantage of being able to act while having a broad knowledge of what is currently happening and what everyone will do. Knowledge gives them power. Contrast this with the events in the Shrieking Shack, where they were sorting out of what happened 12 years go. If only a few people had had a little more knowledge back 12 years ago, that mess could have been sorted out then and injustice avoided.
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Steve Newton - Jun 26, 2007 6:46 am (#232 of 257)
Dumbledore sort of saves the day in OOTP. If he hadn't been there I don;t know if Trixie would have just left or if she and Voldemort would have turned on Harry. Harry did have places to escape to.
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Mrs Brisbee - Jun 26, 2007 9:46 am (#233 of 257)
I didn't put what I meant clearly. After the end of GoF, Dumbledore is no longer seen as omniscient or omnipotent by Harry. Dumbledore's still amazing, mind you, but on a more human scale.
Here at the end of PoA, he's still omniscient, but not omnipotent. Dumbledore knows what going on, and he has a plan. But he can't make the Ministry see the truth. That's clearly defined as outside his power. Dumbledore reminds Hermione that she is the one who has the power to save Sirius, and gives her tacit approval to act against Ministry laws to do so. This is the first time that the trio (or parts thereof) have acted out of bounds with Dumbledore's endorsement, and Dumbledore is the brains of the operation, but Harry and Hermione are the ones with the capabilities to carry out the plan.
But, yes, Dumbledore needed to die eventually for plot reasons, because he is too brilliant and too powerful, and would always be seen as Voldemort's primary opposition, not Harry.
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Solitaire - Jun 26, 2007 12:29 pm (#234 of 257)
With Dumbledore dead, I believe Voldemort will show himself more openly, and he may get careless.
This is the first time that the trio (or parts thereof) have acted out of bounds with Dumbledore's endorsement
Is it? They went "out of bounds," so to speak, when they decided to save the Philospher's Stone ... and I rather think Dumbledore had already realized Harry was going to go after it at some point. But Dumbledore did need to be "out of the picture," so to speak, in order for HRH to make the decision to act ... just as he was "out of the picture" when Harry and Ron went into the Chamber. They were only able to take the steps when they believed Dumbledore was not around to act.
I hope this makes sense, because I feel it fits with your statement: Dumbledore needed to die eventually for plot reasons, because he is too brilliant and too powerful, and would always be seen as Voldemort's primary opposition, not Harry.
Solitaire (who doesn't want to think about the Time Turner)
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Steve Newton - Jun 27, 2007 11:34 am (#235 of 257)
Chapter 22-Owl Post Again (The last chapter.)
Hiding in plain sight. "Unless you are suggesting that Harry and Hermione are able to be in two places at once." I wonder how often Dumbledore has told the truth while deceiving.
If Fudge thinks that dragons would be good guards it suggests that some must be trainable, at the least.
Hagrid did keep the secret of Lupin being a werewolf.
Nobody actually says that Peter has a life debt, only a debt. A debt leaves a bond.
Dumbledore knew James well after Hogwarts.
I remember one case where somebody says that Harry looks like James but doesn't mention the eyes. I wish that I could remember who and in which book.
Dumbledore did not know of the animagi training. In GOF he voices surprise on hearing about the Map.
If I went off I might think that finding his father inside himself had something to do with the scar. Perhaps an accidentally created Horcrux for James.
"Harry couldn't help feeling miserable when he thought of the home he might have had." "It was now impossible." Sad
The owl feels like a very fluffy Snitch. He seems to be the owl equivalent of of Colin Creevey.
Ron protects the owl.
Harry delivers a pretty good non-threat threat.
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Mrs Brisbee - Jun 28, 2007 5:32 am (#236 of 257)
Is it? They went "out of bounds," so to speak, when they decided to save the Philosopher's Stone ... and I rather think Dumbledore had already realized Harry was going to go after it at some point.--Solitaire
I meant that Harry and Hermione knew they had Dumbledore's approval before they set out on their timely adventure. Dumbledore may well have known they were up to things in the earlier books, and approved of their actions, but they didn't know that until after the fact. In PoA they are not just working towards the same goals as Dumbledore, they are working with Dumbledore.
Something else I wanted to note about "Hermione's Secret" is that again we see that because Hermione is trustworthy, she is in a position to help. She was able to get the Time Turner because Professor McGonagall trusts her. Because Hermione reserves her rules breaking for times when it really matters, instead of just for fun, she can help when rules need to be broken to save lives.
On to "Owl Post":
Hiding in plain sight. "Unless you are suggesting that Harry and Hermione are able to be in two places at once." I wonder how often Dumbledore has told the truth while deceiving.-- Steve Newton
Dumbledore is a master at misleading statements. But I thought this was a risky jest. Surely the Minister of Magic knows about Time Turners, and that students sometimes have them. Wouldn't the staff know who had them? Did Snape?
Nobody actually says that Peter has a life debt, only a debt. A debt leaves a bond.
Dumbledore does say the bond is created when one wizard save's another's life. He doesn't say "life debt". Must be that's a Lexicon coined term. But I think it is clear that it is the saved life that creates the debt.
Harry and Hermione have to get back to the hospital wing or something terrible will happen. It sounds to me if you can't get back to your starting place at the end of Time Travelling, then for some reason it doesn't work right.
Harry and Hermione left and make it back at 11:55 p.m., it is still "before midnight" like the Prophecy said. For some reason I think the time must be significant, but Pettigrew escaped about an hour earlier. Harry and Hermione have seen the events of the night twice over, though, from different perspectives.
Snape quickly jumps to the conclusion that Harry had something to do with Sirius's escape. Well, he was right, but it still is quite a leap.
I suppose that the dementors reported to Fudge about wanting to perform the Kiss on Harry. I can't think how Fudge would have known otherwise.
Dumbledore knew it was Harry's Patronus that drove off all those dementors before being told.
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Uncle Brad - Jun 29, 2007 7:09 pm (#237 of 257)
Going back a few posts I like the idea that Dumbledore has information on Snape that makes him keep quiet about Lupin as a Werewolf while they are students. Unfortunatly it didn't hold as Severus 'let slip' about Lupin's condition at the end of the book.
I am surprised that Snape doesn't know about the time turner. He is usually brighter than that. I would figure all the teachers would know about Hermione's course load, and hence the time turner. I can only see it as part of the plot holes that force Hermione to have a time turner to take all the classes while others seemed to manage without one.
Snape is again somewhat unhinged that Sirius is one up on him. He does seem to hold grudges for a long time. he is overly ready to blame Harry (even if he is right).
The predictions and saving Peter's life all lead up to future books.
Steve - one of the easyest ways to lie is to tell the truth in such a manner as no one will believe you. I think Dumbledore has mastered this art. I think Dumbledore knew James after Hogwarts becasue James was in the Order. There also might be some unknown connection to the two also, since Dumbledore had James' invisibility cloak.
Mrs. Brisbee - I think that Harry & Hermione had to get back to the hospital wing because if they were not, then they would be the prime suspects in Sirius's escape. Being in a locked room with Madame Pomfrey is an air-tight alibi. I think Hermione has worked all that out and worries about it in the book, knowing the consequences. I doubt that the time turner insists that you return to your original starting point. It would increase the likelyhood of being seen twice at the same time. One of the bad things about the movie was how it kept showing Hermione poping into a scene. It should have shown her popping out (like the scene where she and Harry disappear from the hospital wing). The only way she would pop in would be to activate the time turner from the same location she poped into. I would think this would be difficult, since one of the scenes showed her popping into Trewlaney's classroom, which would mean she had to be in the classroom when she activated the time turner. Of course, it could all be magic that I just don't understand...
Both Lupin and Dumbledore know it is Harry that drove away the dementors.
How does one pass a final exam with 320%? Wizarding grading is beyond me.
As far as the non-threat. I am sure had Harry written, Sirius would be on the Dursley's doorstep ready to hex them into next week if needed. Harry is smarter than that, wanting Sirius to remain safe and hidden from the ministry.
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Mrs Brisbee - Jun 30, 2007 5:53 am (#238 of 257)
I think that Harry & Hermione had to get back to the hospital wing because if they were not, then they would be the prime suspects in Sirius's escape. Being in a locked room with Madame Pomfrey is an air-tight alibi. I think Hermione has worked all that out and worries about it in the book, knowing the consequences. I doubt that the time turner insists that you return to your original starting point.-- Uncle Brad
That could of been what Hermione meant, but it seems to me that that isn't what Harry was asking. He knows as well as Hermione that if they are caught they will be prime suspects in Sirius's escape, and it just didn't sound like a rhetorical question. But, since it isn't clear what exactly they meant, I suppose it's not much help using it to try to figure out what's going on.
I do think that it is important to return to the starting point for some reason. It was odd that Harry and Hermione had to start in the entrance hall rather than in the hospital wing. The only reason I can think of is that was because the entrance hall was where their past selves were going to be in just a moment after they arrived. I think my idea is supported by Hermione knowing they had to move very quickly to hide. She knew exactly what was happening. Their having to make it back to their starting point at the end would mirror that, providing a kind of closed loop. But I don't suppose it isn't all that important.
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Steve Newton - Jun 30, 2007 7:00 am (#239 of 257)
UB, you say "I am sure had Harry written, Sirius would be on the Dursley's doorstep ready to hex them into next week if needed." I think that Sonny Corleone would agree.
Telling the truth so that no one believes you. I'm pretty good at that. (Also, answering questions with answers that sound like they are responsive, but aren't.)
Starting and ending time travel at the same place must be the way it goes. I hope this does not become important.
I am rereading Connie Willis' 'To Say Nothing of the Dog' and it involves much time travel. If time travel would cause an incongruity then you can't travel there or slippage would occur and you would show up too early late or far away. Not applicable here, but a very good, and funny, book. It even introduced me to Jerome K. Jerome's 'Three Men in a Boat: to say nothing of the dog.' (I think this is available online at Project Gutenberg since is was written about 1880.)
Sorry to wonder so.
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Mrs Brisbee - Jun 30, 2007 7:35 am (#240 of 257)
But I don't suppose it isn't all that important.-- me
Sorry. I'd just been reading a book on the history of the English language, and one of the chapters was on grammar changes in the 17th century. It had a bunch of examples of how multiple negatives were acceptable in the 16th century and earlier, and I think it rubbed off on me in the wrong way.
What I meant was that I don't think it will be important. I don't think that the series resolution will hinge on time travel, and thank goodness for that!
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journeymom - Jun 30, 2007 11:34 am (#241 of 257)
Considering learned physicists cannot agree that travel back into time is at all possible, there is no way to finally answer what would happen to Harry and Hermione physically if they hadn't got back to the Hospital Wing on time.
But in the movie, at least, Dumbledore and Hermione both give the impression that horrible things happen when a person messes up using a time turner. I don't think they were just saying Harry and Hermione wouldn't have an alibi. The screen writers must have had a devil of a time figuring out what perspective to take with that whole story line. They must have had this same conversation we're having now. Notice that the guy in the Leaky Cauldron who was magically stirring his coffee with one hand was reading Hawkings "A Brief History of Time" in the other hand.
I read a fan fic once where Hermione had an accident with the time turner. It broke and so she got stuck in a time loop. Even trying to change the circumstances of the event didn't prevent it from happening; she never escaped her 'fate'. It was one of the most depressing fan fics I ever read.
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Soul Search - Jul 1, 2007 7:34 am (#242 of 257)
My read has been that the whole purpose of the time travel in PoA was so Harry could see himself and think he was seeing his father. The James/Harry theme is very strong in PoA, concluding with Sirius' remark to Harry that he is "truely your father's son."
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Uncle Brad - Jul 1, 2007 6:01 pm (#243 of 257)
Mrs. Brisbee, I agree that time travel seems to have run its couse in the books. If it is a major part of Deathly Hallows, I will be surprised.
Soul Search, your take on the theme in the book, Harry being like his father makes a lot of sense. I think we saw a bit about him being like his mother in Half Blood Prince. I think it will be the combination of their traits that will let Harry vanquish Voldemort.
Steve - a comment you had earlier. Calling Bellatrix Trixie makes me think you had best watch out for hit wizards as they come knocking at your door. I can see her blowing a fuse if someone were to call her that. (And it took me a moment to figure out who you were talking about).
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Steve Newton - Jul 1, 2007 8:25 pm (#244 of 257)
While calling Bella Trixie is, in a small way, a joke, I think that it also fits what we know of the Black family. Narcissa is Cissy. It only seems a small step, to me, that Bellatrix would be shortened to Trixie. Maybe because I watched Jackie Gleason as a kid, and his friend Norton's wife was Trixie, it doesn't sound so outlandish to me.
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Jenniffler - Jul 1, 2007 9:48 pm (#245 of 257)
Hermione's Secret is the chapter that distinguished the Harry Potter series from all similarly age geared literature for me. The audacity to sanction teenagers to pull off time travel was mind-blowing. The description of the time travel might be quirky, but the execution of the overlap was flawless. I enjoyed being with Harry and Hermione as they brushed off their assumptions to see their power for influence clearly. I remember having the book in my hand as I turned to this chapter and distinctly thinking, "Wait! There's too much book left." And each page after that seemed like a gift, re-working my notions until they aligned with the grand scheme of a bigger and better plan than I could have comprehend previously.
The realization that Harry had much of his father in him made me so proud. I honestly felt as if I was going to see an embodiment of James, but that was for a later book or two.
I will now emarassingly admit I thought there was a direct correlation between the names Petti-grew and Long-Bottom.(silly, I know) And my husband told me I was missing the point as I was thinking petticoat, not pettiness. All I saw was the parallel tragedy, not the distinct difference in principles. It is good, in this instance, that I was proven wrong.
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Steve Newton - Jul 2, 2007 4:42 am (#246 of 257)
Jennifler, I also remember that I thought that there was a lot of book left. For me it was when I was sucked into thinking that the Shrieking Shack was going to be the climax. I can be such a sucker.
I am going to try over the next couple of days to read over this thread and see if anything comes together for me. Although I tried to read each chapter with an open mind I didn't read the book straight through so I might have missed some interchapter connections.
This is also the first book which I listened to and was able to retain enough to put it into words when I got to those chapters. Amazing.
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Mrs Brisbee - Jul 3, 2007 10:44 pm (#247 of 257)
I found this quote from Rowling in the World Day Book Chat, March 4, 2004
Kyla: What made Sirius decide to send Snape to the Willow?
JK Rowling replies -> Because Sirius loathed Snape (and the feeling was entirely mutual). You'll find out more about this in due course.
So it seems that there IS more to find out about why Sirius hated Snape. Must be something major!
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journeymom - Jul 3, 2007 11:44 pm (#248 of 257)
Maybe Snape got Regulus mixed up with the Death Eaters.
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Luna Logic - Jul 4, 2007 12:27 am (#249 of 257)
Edited by Jul 4, 2007 12:29 am
Mrs Brisbee : it seems that there IS more to find out about why Sirius hated Snape. Must be something major!
That's a promising information! Journeymom: Maybe Snape got Regulus mixed up with the Death Eaters.
Good idea... It could explain the "silence" about Regulus in the books.
Are the ages fitting? - Where they at Hogwarts in the same years?
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PatPat - Jul 4, 2007 11:33 am (#250 of 257)
Wow! Thanks for the quote, Mrs. Brisbee. I always wondered why Sirius did that. I mean we have seen that he and James were bullies and practical jokers at that age, but this seemed awful drastic. Snape could have been killed. There has to be more to it. I like the idea about Snape getting Regulus involved in the Death Eaters, but, if this is why Sirius hated Snape so much at 15 years old, then Regulus joined up awfully early. He was supposed to be younger than Sirius.
Julia H.- Prefect
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Re: Harry Potter Book Read Along Thread - Prisoner of Azkaban
Julia H. Sun Jul 03, 2011 9:39 am
Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban Book Read Along (Posts 251-257)
Steve Newton - Jul 4, 2007 3:15 pm (#251 of 257)
Off topic but I don't agree that James and Sirius were bullies. They had an enemy in Snape and pursued him. This is what you do to enemies. I have not read that they treated anyone else especially badly. Sometimes out of control, for sure, but not bullies.
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PatPat - Jul 4, 2007 5:47 pm (#252 of 257)
I have not read that they treated anyone else especially badly. Steve Newton
Actually, Steve, Lily said that they DID pick on others: " . . . walking down corridors and hexing anyone who annoys you just because you can - "(OoP28) Don't get me wrong. I believe that James was a good and noble person, but that doesn't mean he wasn't a bully when he was a teenager.
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Steve Newton - Jul 4, 2007 7:19 pm (#253 of 257)
I remembered that but I think that that is somewhat the norm at Hogwarts. I think that many people would do this. The twins did far worse to people in their own common room.
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totyle - Jul 4, 2007 7:42 pm (#254 of 257)
I admit that i dont like the word bully too associated with James and Sirius...Bully smacks of Crabbe and Goyle...I know I just have a soft spot for the Marauders (apart from the RAT!)..but the best explanation for me of how Sirius and James were was I guess from the PoA p 152 UK ed. 3 Broomsticks discussion that Harry overheard...the way McGonagall describes them..that rings true...
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Uncle Brad - Jul 4, 2007 8:23 pm (#255 of 257)
From our point of view (as muggles) not only the twins, but others as well would be considered bullies for what they do. Neville got hit with a leg-locker curse his first year. It is probably why there is a ban on performing magic in the halls between classes - too many adolescents with the means and ability to cause trouble.
I like the theory of Snape getting Regulus mixed up with the Death Eaters. It sort of makes sense as to why Sirius seems to hate Snape so much.
Looking back over the entire thread - Steve, you mentioned Harry's negotiating style way back in Chapter 2 and it repeated itself at the end of the book. Harry seems to have a handle on handling the Dursleys; or at least Uncle Vernon.
Mrs. Brisbee's observation that one theme of the book is family carried through to the end, with Harry actually having family in the form of his godfather Sirius Black. (Another godfather reference for Steve).
Jenniniffler predicted Harry arriving at Hogwarts by fire. Does riding the back of a dragon count? Later on there are more mentions of riding dragons. JKR IS TRICKY!!!
Steve's comment about being in a class with Hermione would be irritating because she is always giving the answers. I would expect that after a while the teachers would all start calling on her as a last resort and give other students a chance.
I liked Mrs. Brisbee's comparison of the Dursley's being like Azkaban to Harry. Both are full of soul sucking parasites. The comments she made about Cho could also match Ginny. "pretty, good Quidditch player, likes to fly, enjoys the game, is good humored and cheerful". Unfortunately Cho seems to have lost a few of those qualities over the years.
A good read and a great discussion with you all. There were some really insightful and thought provoking items brought forth. Steve, the timing was perfect, finishing up just in time for the next book and the countless discussions to come. Thanks to all.
Brad
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Mrs Brisbee - Jul 7, 2007 4:57 pm (#256 of 257)
I'd also like to say thank you to everyone who participated. I reread the thread, so many great observations! I keep wanting to add more comments, but my brain doesn't want to cooperate by allowing me coherent thought.
We were talking about the hero's journey and crossing water earlier in the read along, and how the dementors "drown" Harry. I just wanted to note that Harry finally makes it across the water without "drowning" when he finds his father within himself; the stag Patronus runs across the water of the lake to drive off the dementors, and across the water again to return to Harry, completing the journey.
Uncle Brad mentions that Harry actually has a family now because he's found his godfather. That is a very important change. For the first time within his memory, Harry has an adult who is on his side that he can use to protect himself at Privet drive (even if Sirius is absent by necessity, his mere existence provides Harry with a much needed ally).
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Steve Newton - Jul 8, 2007 6:40 am (#257 of 257)
My rereading of this discussion taking a snails pace I should probably thank everyone for the great time that I have had. If I actually do reread it and have grossly profound thoughts I'll let you know.
Steve Newton - Jul 4, 2007 3:15 pm (#251 of 257)
Off topic but I don't agree that James and Sirius were bullies. They had an enemy in Snape and pursued him. This is what you do to enemies. I have not read that they treated anyone else especially badly. Sometimes out of control, for sure, but not bullies.
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PatPat - Jul 4, 2007 5:47 pm (#252 of 257)
I have not read that they treated anyone else especially badly. Steve Newton
Actually, Steve, Lily said that they DID pick on others: " . . . walking down corridors and hexing anyone who annoys you just because you can - "(OoP28) Don't get me wrong. I believe that James was a good and noble person, but that doesn't mean he wasn't a bully when he was a teenager.
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Steve Newton - Jul 4, 2007 7:19 pm (#253 of 257)
I remembered that but I think that that is somewhat the norm at Hogwarts. I think that many people would do this. The twins did far worse to people in their own common room.
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totyle - Jul 4, 2007 7:42 pm (#254 of 257)
I admit that i dont like the word bully too associated with James and Sirius...Bully smacks of Crabbe and Goyle...I know I just have a soft spot for the Marauders (apart from the RAT!)..but the best explanation for me of how Sirius and James were was I guess from the PoA p 152 UK ed. 3 Broomsticks discussion that Harry overheard...the way McGonagall describes them..that rings true...
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Uncle Brad - Jul 4, 2007 8:23 pm (#255 of 257)
From our point of view (as muggles) not only the twins, but others as well would be considered bullies for what they do. Neville got hit with a leg-locker curse his first year. It is probably why there is a ban on performing magic in the halls between classes - too many adolescents with the means and ability to cause trouble.
I like the theory of Snape getting Regulus mixed up with the Death Eaters. It sort of makes sense as to why Sirius seems to hate Snape so much.
Looking back over the entire thread - Steve, you mentioned Harry's negotiating style way back in Chapter 2 and it repeated itself at the end of the book. Harry seems to have a handle on handling the Dursleys; or at least Uncle Vernon.
Mrs. Brisbee's observation that one theme of the book is family carried through to the end, with Harry actually having family in the form of his godfather Sirius Black. (Another godfather reference for Steve).
Jenniniffler predicted Harry arriving at Hogwarts by fire. Does riding the back of a dragon count? Later on there are more mentions of riding dragons. JKR IS TRICKY!!!
Steve's comment about being in a class with Hermione would be irritating because she is always giving the answers. I would expect that after a while the teachers would all start calling on her as a last resort and give other students a chance.
I liked Mrs. Brisbee's comparison of the Dursley's being like Azkaban to Harry. Both are full of soul sucking parasites. The comments she made about Cho could also match Ginny. "pretty, good Quidditch player, likes to fly, enjoys the game, is good humored and cheerful". Unfortunately Cho seems to have lost a few of those qualities over the years.
A good read and a great discussion with you all. There were some really insightful and thought provoking items brought forth. Steve, the timing was perfect, finishing up just in time for the next book and the countless discussions to come. Thanks to all.
Brad
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Mrs Brisbee - Jul 7, 2007 4:57 pm (#256 of 257)
I'd also like to say thank you to everyone who participated. I reread the thread, so many great observations! I keep wanting to add more comments, but my brain doesn't want to cooperate by allowing me coherent thought.
We were talking about the hero's journey and crossing water earlier in the read along, and how the dementors "drown" Harry. I just wanted to note that Harry finally makes it across the water without "drowning" when he finds his father within himself; the stag Patronus runs across the water of the lake to drive off the dementors, and across the water again to return to Harry, completing the journey.
Uncle Brad mentions that Harry actually has a family now because he's found his godfather. That is a very important change. For the first time within his memory, Harry has an adult who is on his side that he can use to protect himself at Privet drive (even if Sirius is absent by necessity, his mere existence provides Harry with a much needed ally).
- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Jul 8, 2007 6:40 am (#257 of 257)
My rereading of this discussion taking a snails pace I should probably thank everyone for the great time that I have had. If I actually do reread it and have grossly profound thoughts I'll let you know.
Julia H.- Prefect
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Join date : 2011-02-18
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