Harry Potter Book Read Along Thread - The Half-Blood Prince

[Julia H.]

This topic serves as an archive of several threads from the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum as hosted on World Crossing, which ceased operation on April 15, 2011. Julia H.

The original threads to be archived here are 32 threads in the

Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince (Chapter by Chapter Discussions) Folder

and four additional threads from a separate read along process:

Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince Ch 1-3
Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince Ch 4-6
Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince Ch 7-9
Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince Ch 10-12

[Julia H.]

Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince (Chapter by Chapter Discussions) Folder

# General Discussion - Spoilers Included

Kip Carter -Jul 15, 2005 5:26 pm
Edited Sep 25, 2006 3:37 am
This thread is provided for General Discussion of Harry Potter and the HBP Only!

[Julia H.]

Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince Book Read Along (Chapter by Chapter Discussions Folder - General Discussion - Posts 1-50)

dizzy lizzy - Jul 15, 2005 8:11 pm (#1 of 473)
1st post - yippeee. I got the book and got home and started it at 9.50am (Australian EST) and finished it 10 minutes ago (1.50pm Australian EST).

Yes...Jo does answers a lot of our questions (and squishes some theories big time), and there are some places in the book that us devoted fans are going to say, "whoa, run that by me again" and read it again and realise the answers only give us more questions.

As for me...I'm happy...I'm happy that the book I've been waiting for DIDN"T DISAPPOINT ME!!!!!!!!!! what a read.

Now I'm off to put the heater on (it's a cold winter's day outside) and have a nice cuppa with a pen and paper to write down all my questions etc.

Enjoy the book. I wanted to wait until a few more people started posting before getting into any further detail.

Lizzy

EDIT: Pinky: OoP took me five and a half hours, HBP took me four and a bit. Thats why I'm "sayin' nuffink" (saying nothing). This is one of the times I DO NOT appreciate this wonderful gift of speed reading.

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Pinky - Jul 15, 2005 8:13 pm (#2 of 473)
Just got the book. You've already finished it???? *calculates time* Not fair!!!

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Kip Carter -Jul 15, 2005 8:32 pm (#3 of 473)
American hardback edition has 652 pages numbered of story alone plus 18 additional pages of which 13 have printed matter.

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Denise P. - Jul 15, 2005 9:34 pm (#4 of 473)
I just got back from picking up my copy. The first thing I did was look at the chapter list and then had to laugh. In the few days prior to release, I saw 2 different chapter lists. I had great faith that one of them was authentic and one I totally dismissed as being incredibly fake. Wouldn't you know it? The "incredibly fake" one was real! Bwahahahaha...that is too funny on me.

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Miss Malaprop - Jul 15, 2005 10:01 pm (#5 of 473)
If I wanted to read, say, the Chapter 10 thread (even though there is nothing there yet), would it potentially contain spoilers from the rest of the book, or just the first ten chapters?

My sister and I are taking turns at reading 5 chapters at a time, but she's a very slow reader so I want to discuss what I've read so far while I wait for her...but is it best that I stay away from the entire folder until I finish the book?

BTW, it is much smaller than I expected, and much easier to read than OotP was, dontcha think?

(dizzy lizzy - where in Australia are you? I'm in Victoria)

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dizzy lizzy - Jul 15, 2005 10:09 pm (#6 of 473)
Another Aussie *falls down in a faint*

I live in a town in the north-west of New South Wales (NSW).

It is much easier to read than OoP.

My understanding is that each thread can only disscuss that chapter (and the chapters prior to it - by inference). So if you wanted to read and post in chapter 10, I would assume you have read up to chapter 10 and not any further. Therefore anything you want to say that occurs after chapter 10 (in the book), would have to go in its appropiate thread.

Kip, Denise, et al - please correct me if this is wrong.

Lizzy

EDIT: added three words to make my statement clearer.

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Kip Carter -Jul 15, 2005 10:09 pm (#7 of 473)
Miss Malaprop, Chapter Ten should only have spoilers or discussion which were revealed in Chapter Ten only; however there could possibly be references or spoilers from other chapters. That would depend on how the member posted his or her thoughts. Hopefully each member will keep his or her thoughts confined to what is discussed in the specific chapter to which he or she is posting.

I hope that makes sense.

Added edit: Lizzie did a good job of answering.

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Miss Malaprop - Jul 15, 2005 10:42 pm (#8 of 473)
Goodie! That suits me just fine...now I will just have to wait until people finish up...or my sister finishes up

Aussies seem few and far between here, don't they? Although I think there has been a fair amount in the past...

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Madame Pomfrey - Jul 15, 2005 11:50 pm (#9 of 473)
Wow I've only read three chapters and so many questions answered.I can already tell this will be my favorite book.

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magicgirl - Jul 15, 2005 11:55 pm (#10 of 473)
Hey, I am another Australian as well. I think this will be my favourite book. I think I am going to have to re-read it though, I don't think I took in everything from it this first time.

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Fawkes-The-Phoenix - Jul 15, 2005 11:59 pm (#11 of 473)
I've read until page 300+... but can someone tell me who harry's girlfriend is?

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Kip Carter -Jul 16, 2005 11:22 am (#12 of 473)
Fawkes-The-Phoenix, I would rather that question not be answered on this thread, but placed in the proper Chapter thread. I hope you understand.

Added Edit: However it looks like I did not react quick enough with my statement; therefore I have deleted the answer.

Another Added Edit: Before I could delete the answer, the poster deleted it. Thanks!

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dizzy lizzy - Jul 16, 2005 12:06 am (#13 of 473)
No Fawkes...keep reading

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Kip Carter -Jul 16, 2005 12:12 am (#14 of 473)
I will say that "Love is in the air!" definitely; however you may have to almost finish the book to really understand that statement.

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Makgraf - Jul 16, 2005 12:58 am (#15 of 473)
This is one of the times I DO NOT appreciate this wonderful gift of speed reading. I hear you, I got the book 5 hours ago and now I'm done. If only book 7 was there now, eh?

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dizzy lizzy - Jul 16, 2005 1:10 am (#16 of 473)
I can live without book 7 for a while. I've been rereading certain passages all over again. I've got the butcher's paper out and covered two pages in things I want to think about more and what theories have been quashed/confirmed. I've had to resist disscussing the book with two friends who rang me (before they had finished) which was incredibly hard to do.

It is now 7pm my time (Australia EST) and I'm bouncing off the walls wanting to talk to people about the book. So in this case my speed reading skills have gone against me and so have the time zones.

Oh well...I can't win them all.

Lizzy

EDIT: Natasha : More Aussies!!!!!

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Natasha - Jul 16, 2005 1:13 am (#17 of 473)
I know how you feel, dizzy lizzy! I live in Australia too, but luckily I have a friend who doesn't mind me telling her spoiler after spoiler...

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Denise P. - Jul 16, 2005 2:02 am (#18 of 473)
I just finished and may I say, my mouth dropped open in shock more than once. Right now, I am just not sure what to think but boy, JKR is brilliant.

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dizzy lizzy - Jul 16, 2005 2:11 am (#19 of 473)
Isn't she ever...

Brilliant eh?

Lizzy

EDIT: lol saralinda

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Saralinda Again - Jul 16, 2005 2:23 am (#20 of 473)
Oh, holy cats.

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Weeny Owl - Jul 16, 2005 2:33 am (#21 of 473)
Well...hmm...erm... I'm speechless, but mainly this fits best:

gobsmacked

adjective Brit. informal utterly astonished; astounded.

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Lady Nagini - Jul 16, 2005 3:13 am (#22 of 473)
Edited by Jul 16, 2005 4:51 am
Oh MAN. I definitely just finished, and wow...my username has meanings far beyond anything I'd expected.

Seriously, though, I'm rather awed by JKR's prowess to shock us yet again.

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Odds Bodikins - Jul 16, 2005 3:40 am (#23 of 473)
It was unbelievable. Just unbelievable.

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Daniel Sneap - Jul 16, 2005 3:48 am (#24 of 473)
It certainly was..if not slightly sombre in two acounts ( the obvious death and the ... rather sudden splitting of two certain people )

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Lady Nagini - Jul 16, 2005 3:56 am (#25 of 473)
Edited by Jul 16, 2005 5:02 am
Alright, I have a question.

Why were Neville, Luna, and to a certain extent Ginny, pushed to the wayside so completely in this book, when it was made clear in OotP that Harry's oh-so-noble, stoic, I-fight-alone attitude is what gets him and everyone else into trouble in the first place? And I realize that his attitude has shifted, for the better - he's matured enough to understand this war, and to understand his role in it. However, that doesn't hide the fact that he's approaching it from much the same angle, albeit with a much less angry sort of viewpoint.

I hope that makes sense.

And I also realize that JKR writes the Harry Potter series, not the Harry, Ron, Hermione, Luna, Neville, and Ginny series, but it just feels like we're being sold short on these three characters for whom we were promised such great things in the last installment. And maybe that's the plan, I don't know.

Just something that's been bothering me for a full 40 minutes now.

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kabloink! - Jul 16, 2005 4:28 am (#26 of 473)
Well, got home with my book at approximately 1am EST, just finished.

Wow...best book yet....Wow....Loved it!

Sorry, up all night reading, not quite thinking clearly.

What's really scary is that I was talking to two strangers at the release party about who was going to die...and I totally called it! Not that I'm happy about this, of course.

Also, in reference to the split (at the end right?), I don't think she's truly going to give up that easily. She's much more resilient than that.

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Kip Carter -Jul 16, 2005 4:29 am (#27 of 473)
Lady Nagini, I understand your concern. Now we are going to have to wait maybe two or three more years to really find out what is really in JKR's head. I feel that no one could have predicted what transpired in Book Six. I have followed all the theories and predictions made over the last two years plus on this Forum and nobody has come close to really forecasting what Book Six brought forth. What will happen next!

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kabloink! - Jul 16, 2005 4:38 am (#28 of 473)
Arg...THis is awful. My husband and I picked it up at the same time, and were reading at the same pace, then he had to go into work at 430am-now I can't discuss anymore than the beginning with him when he gets home. Oh well, hopefully I'll sleep through the rest of his reading.

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Miss Malaprop - Jul 16, 2005 4:54 am (#29 of 473)
My mouth has been hanging open for the last 3 hours.

Yesterday I wanted to wait 2 years for Book 7...now I want it tomorrow.

kabloink, I called the death too...that didn't stop me crying buckets though.

Lady Nagini, I wished we could have seen more of Neville too, especially after OotP when he seemed to come out of his shell. One of my notes I made whilst reading HBP was "MORE NEVILLE!!!!"

This book seemed very tightly edited to me, very succinct.

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Betelgeuse Black - Jul 16, 2005 5:03 am (#30 of 473)
Well, I'm into chapter 7 and all I can say is:

WOW!!!

This book is reaaallly good!

Betelgeuse

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dizzy lizzy - Jul 16, 2005 5:08 am (#31 of 473)
I have woken up and realised that as much as we've analysed OoP and the earlier book, Jo has indeed, taken us for a ride. Like Kip has said, much as we thought we knew what was coming, we did not. I take my hat off to a great author.

I have always thought, Lady Nagini, that Harry has been alone for so long now (especially in his first 10 years at the Dursleys), so used to fighting his own battles, that he may never change in this respect. And even when he is at Hogwarts, with friends and people who care about him and he cares about - he still strikes me as being alone. And as a result he will certainly try his hardest to go and fight this last battle alone. I doubt his friends will let him though....

Lizzy

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kabloink! - Jul 16, 2005 5:42 am (#32 of 473)
I think he may really still be learning what it means to have real friends. But this is something that distinguishes him from Voldemort...something I thin kDumbledore was pressing...

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Ponine - Jul 16, 2005 5:45 am (#33 of 473)
Holy Cow. I'm truly in shock. When I finished the book at 6:00 this morning, I just sat there for quite a while and tried to absorb all of this.

I'm agreeing with Weeny Owl's assessment. I am also gobsmacked.

Except for the H/G.

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Detail Seeker - Jul 16, 2005 6:53 am (#34 of 473)
After nine chapters, I can just say:

Nice to read, a lot of interesting details and turns, but the best seems to be coming. Let´s see !

Wellcome back, Makgraf ! Long time gone, I read a post of yours.

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Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 16, 2005 7:48 am (#35 of 473)
How terribly sad. LPO

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L. Evans - Jul 16, 2005 8:58 am (#36 of 473)
I burst into tears at the end of That Chapter. I've never done that before in my adult life! It certainly was very sudden and sad, however early on I saw it coming.

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Weeny Owl - Jul 16, 2005 9:56 am (#37 of 473)
After pondering this for a while, can I just say that I want a time turner so that I can go back to yesterday?

I want a totally different book. I want things to be back to where they were in OotP. I want these characters to say and do things differently. I want JKR to say it was all a joke and that the real Half-Blood Price will arrive later.

Right at the moment, I really don't like JKR much.

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Saralinda Again - Jul 16, 2005 10:03 am (#38 of 473)
Weeny Owl, remember that you're expecting closure, like we've always had in the books up until now. But she did warn us that Six and Seven were actually sort of a continuum. That means, alas, no closure. Hang in there -- I do not believe that she will let us down in Seven.

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Weeny Owl - Jul 16, 2005 10:17 am (#39 of 473)
It's more than just closure, Saralinda. It's that so many of the characters didn't behave the way I've always seen them, even Hermione.

I expected Dumbledore would die in this book, but not the way he did. I thought Harry would still have access to Dumbledore through a portrait in the Headmistress's office (McGonagall), and that Snape, being the truly noble soul he is, would be Deputy Headmaster.

I just feel that so many characters betrayed us. I'm almost taking it personally, even though this is just a series of books.

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azi - Jul 16, 2005 10:18 am (#40 of 473)
Well, it took me 8 hours of reading, with breaks while I jumped up and down screaming or going, 'Nooooooooooo', but I finished! One word - WOW!

I am completely happy with the book, I *never* expected anything in it to happen and in general I don't feel let down in any way!

I also admit to crying twice. I'm not ashamed of that.

Edit - My only critism was that the characters didn't seem to be quite right at times, like they did things they wouldn't normally, acted differently This could just be because I've only had 5 books to read so long and therefore got used to them like that. Anyone else think that? I assumed it was maturing, but Dumbledore seemed completely different.

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rarr - Jul 16, 2005 10:31 am (#41 of 473)
You have a point, Weeny - I felt that Dumbledore, particularly, seemed a little off compared to what he is like in the previous books. I also thought Hermione and Ron refusing to be around eachother to be...a little artificial. However, the biggest disappointment for me is how Ginny was handled. She was given several lines (more than she's had before) as Harry's *friend*, but gets a grand total of around seven as his girlfriend. She became more of a throwaway character that's easy to forget once she became more significant to Harry - this seems like an oxymoron to me.

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Ruthie - Jul 16, 2005 10:41 am (#42 of 473)
WOW!!!!

The first HP book that's made me cry more than once, laugh out loud and 'oooooh' and 'ahhhhhhh' so that my brother down stairs could hear! To be honest I'm left feeling quite empty, it being 6.00am and having stayed up all yesterday and night reading

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Marie E. - Jul 16, 2005 11:15 am (#43 of 473)
It took me around six hours to read, but I was home alone with my daughters for some of that time. Did anyone else get the feeling that sometimes she was reading off a list of our questions and answering them as she wrote?

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Menopause Molly - Jul 16, 2005 11:15 am (#44 of 473)
Could somebody please pass the tissues? (mm sniffles again) What a time to run out of Kleenex!

Yes, I had predicted this death myself but still actually sobbed out loud at least three times. I am going to feel gobsmacked at least the whole weekend (if not for the next 2-3 years).

I almost don't know what to do with myself now. Probably start my second reading...

mm

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rarr - Jul 16, 2005 11:24 am (#45 of 473)
I thought it seemed a little like that too - and she firmly quashed all the fanfics that revolved around Harry keeping the prophecy all to himself for a long time, and grieving for Sirius. I thought it was a little weird how Sirius was barely mentioned - less than Cedric, in fact.

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hellocello3200 - Jul 16, 2005 12:23 pm (#46 of 473)
I think she wanted to have some happy moments in this book, and if Harry had been mourning Sirius for most of the book and then mourning the most recent character death, it would have been a little too weepy for my taste.

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rarr - Jul 16, 2005 12:28 pm (#47 of 473)
Yeah, I agree, but Sirius's death seemed like a bit of an afterthought in many places. I think it should have been dealt with a little more, but after the first couple of Harry chapters it could have reasonably been put in the back of his mind.

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Cuivienen - Jul 16, 2005 12:41 pm (#48 of 473)
I do agree that the lack of mourning for Sirius seems odd. It wouldn't be so strange except that Harry was far more upset by Cedric's death - and he barely knew Cedric at all. It just seems a little bit out of character for Harry to take Sirius's death so in stride.

(Actually, I thought in OotP that Harry was out of character in his ongoing distress about Cedric's death. The real problem is that OotP and HBP just don't agree on Harry's character in this respect.)

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Julie Aronson - Jul 16, 2005 1:20 pm (#49 of 473)
Well, I just finished about an hour ago and I'm still processing...

I agree that Dumbledore didn't seem the same at all, but this book has a general sense of urgency about it, so I guess that can explain some of the free exposition, but he never REALLY said how his hand got injured.

I also agree that this book was tightly edited, espcially when compared to OOTP, but maybe that was too much of a good thing. In this case, more surrounding information would be welcome.

Regardless, it got a loud, "NOOOO!" from me at the Astronomy tower and I was close to tears more than once.

Now I just need book seven...

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Star Crossed - Jul 16, 2005 1:22 pm (#50 of 473)
I think Sirius' death could have been handled a bit better, but I don't think I would change anything else. I thought this book was the best yet. Probably because I always really disliked OP. This one was more cheerful, I was laughing at a lot of parts. Didn't really have that in OP.

[Julia H.]

Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince Book Read Along (Chapter by Chapter Discussions Folder - General Discussion - Posts 51-100)

rarr - Jul 16, 2005 1:24 pm (#51 of 473)
Dumbledore did, in fact, explain how he blackened his hand. Marvolo's ring had blackened it when he forced his way through Voldemort's protections.

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Julie Aronson - Jul 16, 2005 1:31 pm (#52 of 473)
I thought that was when Dumbledore extinguished that part of Voly's soul. I kept waiting for a more detailed description of the events...

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OkieAngel - Jul 16, 2005 1:49 pm (#53 of 473)
I've just finished my first read of HBP. I think I'm still processing, still in shock somewhat. I really didn't think JKR would kill DD in this book, I was expecting the "major" death to be a Weasley. I had quite a few "YAY, we were right" moments, a couple "huh?" moments, and then several jaw-droppers. I do agree that I had hoped for more "screen-time" for Neville and Ginny, but I'm glad that DD and Harry got to spend so much more time together.

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Betelgeuse Black - Jul 16, 2005 2:32 pm (#54 of 473)
OK, I've finished too. I guess you could say I'm still trying to absorb it all. I'm kind of in a daze (4 hours of sleep ;-) ).

I don't know what to think of the HBP. I'm interested to see what Gina has to say.

Has anyone guessed who RAB is? My first guess is Regulus Black. That means the much sought after item might be at 12GP.

What happens to 12GP with the secret keeper gone? Is the secret revealed? Is it hidden forever? I can't think straight so I won't offer an answer.

If book 7 does not involve a year at Hogwarts, then the feel of the book will be much different without the school year schedule.

Sorry to ramble, Betelgeuse

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I Am Used Vlad - Jul 16, 2005 4:31 pm (#55 of 473)
I just finished the book, and all I can say is "Wow." So many questions answered, and so many new ones.

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Doris Crockford - Jul 16, 2005 5:01 pm (#56 of 473)
Oh man. I'm in shock. Wow. JKR really is amazing. I thought maybe after the times spent on the forum, I'd be less surprised, but obviously not! I wonder what Marcus has to say about Pansy/Harry now.

I agree with everyone who thinks that people acted very oddly and out of character. For most of my first read-through, I thought it was much more like a fanfic than the actual book. But since I've started reading it for the second time, I'm really warming up to it.

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Blaise Zabini - Jul 16, 2005 5:49 pm (#57 of 473)
I just need to say...wow. That was an amazing book, and had so many twists and turns.

The one thought that keeps on going through my head is this: What will become of Draco?

I don't think he will leave the Death Eaters, though he does have some good in him. Nor do I think that Voldemort will kill him...I REALLY need the seventh book now =)

Also, I am surprised...I never thought that Harry wouldn't go to his seventh year! Well, he might, but the book was clearly pointing in the direction that he won't.

Once again, the book was amazing, and I can't WAIT for book 7!

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Saralinda Again - Jul 16, 2005 5:55 pm (#58 of 473)
Wonder whether Harry would consider giving 12GP to Remus and Tonks as a wedding gift. Heaven knows Remus is poor, and I suspect that Tonks' mums married for love, not money.

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Miss Malaprop - Jul 16, 2005 6:09 pm (#59 of 473)
Ugh...some wedding gift! Were they ever able to remove Mrs Black's portrait?

Doris Crockford, I felt as if I were reading a fanfic too. The tight editing made it easy to read, but everything seemed to happen so suddenly. Harry and Ginny especially - it seemed to come out of nowhere.

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Thom Matheson - Jul 16, 2005 7:00 pm (#60 of 473)
That was about the easiest hard 7 hours I have spent in a long long time. Or if you prefer the hardest, easy hours. At 55 I cannot remember a single book evoking more from me then this one. JKR, if you are reading these, Bless you!!!!! I'm going out and buying more stock in Kleenex, and whom ever is making a good antidepressant.

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Ydnam96 - Jul 16, 2005 7:01 pm (#61 of 473)
I'm finished. I had to take a huge break for my birthday celebration and some sleep. I think it took me 7 or 8 hours to read. I've lost track.

But I just want to cry.

It was nothing like I suspected. Which is good, but it's so totally sad.

I'm gonna read it again tomorrow and start making notes and such. Right now I think I'm gonna stay away from the threads till I get the second reading in.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 16, 2005 7:10 pm (#62 of 473)
I am not sure Harry would give 12 GP to Remus. Sirius one the few best friends that Remus had. I think that giving 12 GP to Remus would cause Remus a great deal of pain because, it could cause him to bode on his loss. Sirius, James, Lily and Albus are dead, and Peter a traitor. Remus has lost nearly everyone who were closest to him with the exception of Minerva. I am not sure if Remus would like being reminded of that.

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Finn BV - Jul 16, 2005 8:02 pm (#63 of 473)
Wow.

I have just finished at exactly the stroke of midnight (where I am here)? spooky isn't it? I was hoping I might finish it by the end of the day? oh well.

I am so shocked. Nothing like I expected. More to come tomorrow I guess.

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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 16, 2005 9:53 pm (#64 of 473)
Just finished it. I took it very slowly (for me) and seemed to have about 100 interruptions so it took about 24 hours. I disagree with a lot of what you are all saying. I wasn't shocked by much of anything. I felt we were led pretty well by the hand to each thing that happened. Also, I think the characters were different, but understandably so. The war took a different toll on each character, the older characters especially. The younger characters were just growing up, and that presents problems in its own right that will change how people act.

Weeny Owl wrote: I expected...that Snape, being the truly noble soul he is, would be Deputy Headmaster....I just feel that so many characters betrayed us.

Weeny Owl, don't feel to betrayed yet. I don't think the full ramifications of Snape's actions are in yet. I think DD was right to trust him. Don't get me wrong, I think Snape is the most vile and loathsome character in this book, excluding perhaps, Voldemort. But I don't think Snape betrayed DD once in the HBP. This is probably not the best place to put it, but I will be putting a theory up tonight or tomorrow when I find a good place for it. I think there is a chance (only a chance) that Snape is still on the good guys side.

-TWW

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Lady Nagini - Jul 16, 2005 9:55 pm (#65 of 473)
TWW, I hope you're right!! If Snape turned out to be another baddie, I'd be rather annoyed.

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Weeny Owl - Jul 16, 2005 10:38 pm (#66 of 473)
I don't necessarily mean betrayed as in Snape really is on Voldemort's side, but more because I wanted him to be Deputy Headmaster and get his Order of Merlin, First Class.

If he survives until the end, what then? He used an Unforgivable Curse to kill the Headmaster of Hogwarts. Will the public (and the Ministry) be forgiving?

I never wanted to see him as a smiling, happy-go-lucky, fluffy bunny, but what future can he have after this? That's the betrayal... he isn't going to have the future I wanted for him.

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magicgirl - Jul 16, 2005 11:08 pm (#67 of 473)
I am glad that I am not the only one who is still feeling really sad about DD death. I have to keep reminding myself its not real. I feel like Snape has a bigger part to play in the last book and hopefully will redeem himself. If he didn't kill DD he himself would have died. Hard choice either himself or DD.

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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 16, 2005 11:20 pm (#68 of 473)
Weeny Owl, I meant that I don't think he killed Dumbldore. I don't think Dumbldore is dead. And this isn't a knee-jerk reaction from not wanting him to be dead. I expected he would die as soon as I started reading the book. There are several clues scattered through-out the book. I am looking for a place to put my theory now. Most likely it will go in the overview thread since it takes clues from chapters 2-30. It is not a theory that says he has to be dead, but JKR certainly has left herself room to cleverly bring DD back. If anyone is interested in my thoughts, I'll post here when I find a home for the longer theory.

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Weeny Owl - Jul 16, 2005 11:27 pm (#69 of 473)
I'm interested, Wandless, and if you want to, e-mail me with your theory. I'd love to read it.

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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 16, 2005 11:44 pm (#70 of 473)
Edited by Jul 17, 2005 12:52 am
I am writing the theory out right now, Weeny Owl. I think I am going to e-mail a copy off to the mods and request it get its own thread if they deem it worthy. I'll cc a copy to you as well. It is long and if it proves interesting, could dominate a thread.

EDIT: Are any of the mods done with the book? I don't want to e-mail you spoilers.

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Ponine - Jul 17, 2005 1:59 am (#71 of 473)
I have guests this weekend *snarl* Thus, my time to read and to process the book has become painfully small. I finished last night, but the computer rom was taken, which meant I had to sit there, weepy and sad, all by myself.... I was a little thrown off balance by the writing style in the frst chapters, as I thought it was odd that Harry did not even appear until -what - chapter three?? I too thought of Regulus, and as soon as Harry opened his book and found cramped, miniscule writing, I knew.... I think this book is brilliant, but I am very afraid for book seven. I think everyone jumped to conclusions in the end, and that, like Wandless Wizard said, nothing happened that was not supposed to happen... Off to entertain guests again, before REALLY delving into things tonight

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Kip Carter -Jul 17, 2005 2:05 am (#72 of 473)
The Wandless Wizard, the answer is Yes! I know that at least three Hosts have completed reading Book Six: Denise P., Saralinda Again, and Kip Carter. Please feel free to email.

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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 17, 2005 2:08 am (#73 of 473)
Kip- I already sent you and Denise the e-mail. I saw you two had posted in the spoiler sections. Please let me know where is the best place for my theory or let me know if you didn't get it. Thanks.

-TWW

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Little Ginny - Jul 17, 2005 4:00 am (#74 of 473)
A lot of people seem to complain that the characters were less well characterised in HBP than they were in the novels before. Others seem to think that many characters were not developing, but static (e.g. Neville, Luna) whereas other characters behaved differently from what they used to (e.g. Hermione, Tonks, and, to a certain extent, Dumbledore).

Could we perhaps have a thread dealing with Characters? I suppose it would be stupid to have an own thread for each character, but it could be something like "Characters, Character Changes and Characterisation in HBP", where the characters and their portrayal in HBP as opposed to the other books, could be discussed.

Or do you think such a thread is not necessary, and I perhaps, overestimated the interest in this question?

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Hollywand - Jul 17, 2005 4:29 am (#75 of 473)
My first impression of the book overall is that Rowling's style has become very self-conscious and less playful. I expected the book to be plenty bleak, but for the ending to have a more spirited air of hope.

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Sarah Bates - Jul 17, 2005 4:41 am (#76 of 473)
A fantastic book. Well done JK. Only one snag I found. I either read from JK Rwoling herself or from the forum that we were to find out more about Lily and James, also about the Longbottoms and I was sure that JK said on her FAQ page on her website that the two way mirrors would play a part. I may be wrong. Can anyone clarify this?

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haymoni - Jul 17, 2005 5:21 am (#77 of 473)
I finished the book at midnight also.

I have to say that my first reaction was that Ungrateful Son shouldn't read this book - he's 11. How will he feel when he realizes Dumbledore was...well, you know.

I was thoroughly depressed. I think I may have a problem. I had to remind myself that this was a book. I truly felt doomed after reading this.

Granted, this was a quick read-through. I'll be going back over each chapter slowly. Maybe I'll start to remember the funny parts rather than the sad. I think I have to go through "the steps" of mourning.

Did anyone else get the impression that Harry was suddenly 20???

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Istari Jones - Jul 17, 2005 5:44 am (#78 of 473)
Whoa! I finished last night also! Personally, I would like to a see an "I Didn't See That Coming!" Thread. Wonderful, wonderful book.

I meant that I don't think he(Snape) killed Dumbldore. I don't think Dumbldore is dead.

Golly, Wandless WIzard, I'm having a had time seeing your viewpoint on that. I am open to your theory, but how much more explicit and direct could JKR get that Snape killed DD than that scene? I was also extremely astounded at the intensity of Snape's and Harry's confrontation in the grounds after the battle. I have to admit I was one of the strongest propopnents for Snape being misunderstood, advocating his double spy role in the scheme of things, and believed in his desire for redemption, but I just can't justify his behavior at all here.

I would love to read your reasoning behind all of this though. A awful lot can happen in book # 7; we've been fooled by JKR's red herrings before.

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Muggle Doctor - Jul 17, 2005 5:45 am (#79 of 473)
Somebody start a thread on HBP 'ships, please.

Both of mine got torpedoed, BIG TIME.

Am waiting for the opening pages of Book 7, in which Harry hunts up every member of Dumbledore's Army except for his Ministry veterans and kicks their accursed teeth in for standing around and not pulling their weight during the Death Eater incursion. They ought to have reacted a lot better than they did to all the noise and commotion - with all the extra numbers, the Death Eaters might never have got to Dumbledore (who, by the way, is definitely dead).

Except Hannah, of course, who'd already left. Poor girl.

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Weeny Owl - Jul 17, 2005 5:48 am (#80 of 473)
I was thoroughly depressed. I think I may have a problem. I had to remind myself that this was a book. I truly felt doomed after reading this.

Oh, thank heavens I'm not the only one feeling this way. I keep telling myself it's ridiculous to feel so distraught over a book, but I keep feeling that way.

It isn't Dumbledore's death. There were clues in OotP that he wasn't going to be around much longer.

It's more the hopelessness I feel for the futures of Snape and Draco.

As much as I detested Draco, I never wanted him to become, or have to become, a Death Eater. I thought he'd spend sixth year going after Harry now and then to get back at him, but that what Draco did would be a bit nastier. I never imagined him being put in this situation.

Same with Snape. As I said earlier, he was supposed to be Deputy Headmaster and win his Order of Merlin, First Class. Of course, he might still win the medal, but chances are it will be posthumously. I wanted him and Harry to come to terms with each other slowly over the last two years.

Regardless of who ended up with whom, I wanted their love lives to be fun with just a few tense moments.

Let me mourn with you, haymoni.

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vanessa cave - Jul 17, 2005 6:08 am (#81 of 473)
I'm with you Haymoni, i finished reading it last night went to bed totally shocked and upset and woke up feeling very depressed, i then told hubby all about it (he dosen't read them) and he actually said "sounds like alot of nonsense to me" i had to just walk away he so doesn't understand. Also my first thought after finshing the book was i don't want my children to read this it's so sad, but they are only 5 and 7 so it will be awhile yet!

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Ponine - Jul 17, 2005 6:38 am (#82 of 473)
Haymoni and Weeny - I wish to join you. I am stunned and sadden, and deeply impressed by JK's brilliance. I don't know if Dumbledore is dead or not - It would be nice if WW is right, and that he indeed will come back. I am however confident that DD sacrificed both himself in order to save Draco from being a death eater and Snape from death. He was pleading with Severus to do the hardest thing he ever had to do, namely kill the only one who believed in him, and not to save his life. I feel horrible for Snape as he now is completely alienated from the Order.

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Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 17, 2005 6:45 am (#83 of 473)
Muggle Doctor - I'm with you. DD has gone to the great wizard school in the sky. But I think that DD's status will be a site fan question. Some people will not believe it until JKR says "Yes he is dead, how much more explicit does it need to be". Or words to that effect.

Ponine, I believe that Draco is already a death eater. What else would Draco have shown the shop keeper?

But I am now going to get out all my copies of previous Harry Potter books and re read them in the light of HBP. What else have I missed except the diary?

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Hedwig Potter - Jul 17, 2005 7:16 am (#84 of 473)
I think Dumbledore is dead, BUT I think he was going to die from the potion that was left by this new RB guy who left the trap for Voldie. I think somehow Snape knew this and killed him so Draco wouldn't have to. As much as I hate Snape, the fact that he didn't do anything really bad to Harry when Harry came after him shows he's still on the right side. He also didn't take it too well when Harry accused him of directly killing his parents. I think we'll find out that Snape knew Dumbledore wasn't going to make it and somehow (maybe using Occlumens?) they registered what must be done. That way he saved Draco from being a killer.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 17, 2005 8:02 am (#85 of 473)
Draco is a Death Eater like his father and his Aunt Bella. The question that chapter 2 raised for me is Narcissa a Death Eater if so she seems an unwilling one at times. I must say for a Black-Malfoy her charcter was delightfully ambigious on that point.

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Loopy Lupin - Jul 17, 2005 8:14 am (#86 of 473)
Well, I have to put myself into the WOW category with a lot of others. I had the same sensation as Marie E. early on: that JKR was going down a check list and answering our questions. I think perhaps that might be more a function of us, the Forumers, having oodles of questions in our minds and recognizing relevant bits more readily than other people might.

I also agree with the person who said that the editing could have been looser. I never minded the 870 pages in OoP to begin with. I wouldn't have minded more pages in this one certainly with a little more time devoted to action and a little less to 'ships. (I thought JKR said there wouldn't be much time for girlfriends but what's life without a "little" romance?)

I can't say that I had the same feelings some people have expressed about particular characters acting "out of character." I will pay more attention to this on the re-reads. What did jump out at me was that the kids, as a whole, were more "adult-acting" or "teenagery" than in previous books.

I'm still digesting everything. I'm sure there will be more to say later.

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Miss Weasley - Jul 17, 2005 10:59 am (#87 of 473)
About Snape having to choose his life or Dumbledore's, remember what Lupin said to Fred and George? "There are some things worth dying for..." I mean, he is an adult. He should understand this. If he was really on their side to start.

When I read that Dumbledore had died, I acctually started shaking. Like, physically shaking. I don't know why, but I do that when I'm really overwhelmed. He was so trusting. Everyone has an Achilles' Heel, I guess. And that was his. Stay in school, Harry. That's what I say.

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Lagniappe - Jul 17, 2005 11:17 am (#88 of 473)
I finished the book yesterday afternoon and it has been difficult sorting through all the different emotions I've felt. I am SO glad this forum exists, though, because it is a relief to see that other members are having such conflicting emotions after reading "just a book." I have the heaviest heart right now! I think that is the hallmark of JKR's writing - her fantastically rich characters that absolutely suck you in and make you laugh (and especially cry) right along with them.

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Hollywand - Jul 17, 2005 11:34 am (#89 of 473)
The heavy heart! Yes, I will be very interested to learn more about the children's cub reports on the Half Blood Prince and the evening in the castle! Peaks and valleys!

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Nims - Jul 17, 2005 12:02 pm (#90 of 473)
I got a chill when the book proved from the beginning pages to be more funny than frightening - a true change from OP. "Mollywobbles" and "U-No-Poo" ("they'll be murdered in their beds!") had me giggling loud enough to repeatedly wake up my husband who was sweet enough to wait in line with me that (Friday) night to get the book. Humor comes with a heavy price in JKR's world. Paradoxically, if the next book has less humor at the start I will read it with a lighter heart than this one. JKR treats her readers the same way she treats Harry, we get happy moments and then she rips them away...

Why no sighting of LV in this one? Where is he, what terrible things has he been up to this year that he commissioned out killing DD? Is he a coward (obviously), that he didn't face DD on his own, after losing to him at the Ministry, or was Draco's mission set in order to kill Draco/Snape?

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septentrion - Jul 17, 2005 12:03 pm (#91 of 473)
I'm also glad to be able to share my emotions with you all. I really grieve Dumbledore (couldn't hardly eat anything of all day) but When people look at me concerned, I just say I don't feel well today. They wouldn't understand. In a way, it would be better for Snape if he really wanted to kill him. I just can't imagine his feelings if he killed him out of obligation, in spite of his respect for him, and knowing he wouldn't be allowed to grieve.

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Kwikspell - Jul 17, 2005 12:33 pm (#92 of 473)
I started crying at the end of Chapter 27 and pretty much didn't stop until several minutes after completing the book. I must say I'm feeling much better after an obscenely large slice of my husband's chocolate birthday cake, though.

I think I need to go back and read those last three chapters over again.

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frogface - Jul 17, 2005 1:28 pm (#93 of 473)
Best book so far. The ending has had me grieving as well, but I know that he must have died for a reason. That JKR managed to make some of Dumbledore's funeral comical is a true testament to her amazing talent. I'm going to have to read it again a few times and read it as part of the series before I can start to analyze and speculate though.

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Love2Travel - Jul 17, 2005 4:08 pm (#94 of 473)
Oh I finished it! I felt like I should have a highlighter and go back over everything! WOW!!!

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Thom Matheson - Jul 17, 2005 6:40 pm (#95 of 473)
It's now been 30 hours since I finished to first go round. I asm with all of you that the rest of the week end has been a depressing time. AS far as the Draco thing, I keep going back the the Ministry scene in OoP where Bella says to Harry, that you really have to mean the curse, ( unforgivables) to really perform them. I'm sure that Draco didn't have any way to practice AK. Snape without a doubt knew this as well. I think that is why he knew he would have to do the deed. I believe that DD also knew that when he told Draco that he would not kill him.

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 17, 2005 7:23 pm (#96 of 473)
Methinks my feelings about this book are the same as a lot of members... unsettled. Am still in shock about many facets of. Just wanted to check in before I try and sort it all out. Very abrupt, seemingly hurried, definitely different style and pace.

...would toddle off to ponder but am stuck hanging in the Head's office...

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L.W.P.P. - Jul 17, 2005 8:47 pm (#97 of 473)
I finishd the book yesterday in 8 hours and from the point that Dumbledore started drinking that stuff until I fell asleep I cried. The only time a fiction thing made me cry.

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Verity Weasley - Jul 17, 2005 9:22 pm (#98 of 473)
I finished reading the book on Saturday night after getting it at 9.01 here in Australia. We actually had a power cut here so I had to read the last five or six chapters by candlelight - quite appropriate really given the darkness of those chapters. I can understand some people being concerned about children's reactions as mentioned in previous posts but I have already started reading it aloud to my two boys (aged 7 and 11). They have listened avidly to the previous ones and there was no way they would let me out of doing the same with this one, but I don't foresee any problems. Just because of the way JKR deals with all these issues so well.

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septentrion - Jul 17, 2005 10:57 pm (#99 of 473)
This should be on the "you know you're a HP and lex forum fan when..." but there are spoilers so I post it here instead :

YKYHPALF when you dream all night that Snape contacts Harry while he's asleep, sort of the same LV did in OoTP, and kind of convince him he'll help him in his goal of finishing Voldemort off.

...when you still can hardly eat anything more than 24 hours after you have finished the book.

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magicgirl - Jul 18, 2005 12:40 am (#100 of 473)
I am so glad that I am not the only one upset over DD dying. My one comfort is that his portrait is in his office so he is not entirely gone.

[Julia H.]

Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince Book Read Along (Chapter by Chapter Discussions Folder - General Discussion - Posts 101-150)

Snuffles - Jul 18, 2005 1:07 am (#101 of 473)
Well slap me round the face with one of F&G fake haddock wands! I never saw half of what was coming!

I guessed who was going to die but definately not who was going to do it! I'm more confused than ever! Did DD and Snape have an understanding and will he really end up on the side of good?

How rotten has Draco become? He has definately been practising his hexes of the summer!

I'm still in total shock!

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Kerstin - Jul 18, 2005 1:18 am (#102 of 473)
Just a (probably not so) funny thought: wasn?t it at the end of OP when Harry told Snape he was thinking of what curse to use on Malfoy, and Snape did nothing against it. In HBP it was Snape who - indirectly - gave Harry the spell at hand that he used on Malfoy in the bathroom scene.

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Susanne - Jul 18, 2005 2:43 am (#103 of 473)
I am so glad I'm not the only person who has been in mourning since reaching the end of the book! I really feel like I have lost a friend but all credit should go to JKR, HBP was fantastic. There were many things that made me gasp out loud and I could never have forseen how Dumbledore died. I have now finished my second read and it is quickly becoming my favourite book of the series so far.

I felt less lost after the second read, the hospital scene Harry reminded me so strongly of - - - - - - - - - -
DD - asking questions of the others and them treating him as an equal rather than a child with a heavy burden. It was almost as though they were turning to him for answers now that DD has gone. While I don't think Harry will ever take DD's place, I think he will be more included in the Order's plans in books 7.

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[b]Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 18, 2005 3:40 am (#104 of 473)
So many questions about Book 7. I'm not sure if I missed it but did anyone do magic just once in book 6? I don't think so, so role on Book 7.

Yes I cried in the astronomy tower seen. I also kicked myself, and Harry, for not taking Trelawney seriously. JKR - how could you do this to me? Set Sybil up as a fool and a fraud and then make her this accurate.

Where was Moody? Why has LV not sprung his troops from Azkaban (probably because he wants them to suffer for their failure). If Snape overheard Trelawney and DD why hasn't Voldemort tried to seer-nap Sybil? Accio book 7!!!!

Edit - and now we know what all the covers refer to from the US deluxe, to the UK adults.

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scoop2172000 - Jul 18, 2005 4:17 am (#105 of 473)
Add me to the wow list -- and the heavy hearted. I had finished most of the book Saturday and had gone to bed happy. Sunday morning, I reached the dark ending, and I feel so sad.

For my second re-read, I'm actually listening to the audiobook. I'm picking up some of the finer points I missed the first time speed-reading my way through the book. Is Jim Dale cool or what?

I hadn't seen Dumbledore's death coming. I had been predicting it would have been one of the Weasleys.

Harry-Ginny 'shippers of the world UNITE!!! I had seen that one coming. I'd seen Ron and Hermione coming too, though I thought that by this point, they would have gotten further along. Please, moderators, start a new ship-ship thread.

I'm interested in reading what Prefect Marcus has to say about Pansy.

More to the point, I'm interested in reading what Gina R. Snape has to say. She was like Dumbledore: trying to see good in Snape and thus being blind to Snape's evil. Like Harry's weakness of playing the hero, Dumbledore's weakness was trusting people.

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Elanor - Jul 18, 2005 5:02 am (#106 of 473)
Well, two days after reading the HBP, I still am heavy-hearted too. I have the feeling I have lost a dear friend. I'm going to start my second reading, slowlier, and take the time to savour it. I'm sure I'm going to love it even more this time!

May I join you Sept in another YKYHPALF moment?

So, YKYHPALF when you know you will never be able to eat raspeberry jam again without thinking of DD... **sad smile**

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septentrion - Jul 18, 2005 5:06 am (#107 of 473)
You're welcome Elanor !

I'll try to reread the book too but it hurts. Yet I have to do it, I need a better understanding and things were so fast !

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Love2Travel - Jul 18, 2005 7:15 am (#108 of 473)
I would like to join the heavy hearted as well. I felt yesterday like I wanted to just curl up in a chair and hold my book. What a roller coatster at first I was so excited that I had guessed Snape but then I was so mad that he had choosen to save Draco, and kill DD. Also I was so frustrated when Snape was just tossing Harry's attacks off with a flick of his wand. I want Harry to learn how to close his mind~ I even yelled "close your mind!" and woke up my husband, hee hee. I must admit that I do feel that this book has a rushed sort of feeling about it. I love the book, it just seems to have a different feel than the others.

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Hollywand - Jul 18, 2005 7:22 am (#109 of 473)
In retrospect, I think Jo has intentionally adopted this very focused tone for Book Six to put the readers back at the core issues of the story. Rowling has intentionally excluded a lot of the incedental interactions such as Hogwarts banquets and descriptions of the surroundings to bring us back to the key elements in the book. She seemed to be bluntly responding to questions that had been argued ad nauseum to put them to rest. I think others like Neville were pushed to the background to clearly refocus the story on Harry, his core mentors, and the trio.

We are certainly in the car pool lane for Book Seven, Ms. Rowling.

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K Michaelis - Jul 18, 2005 7:38 am (#110 of 473)
I was just so thankful to have a respite from Harry interacting directly with Voldemort again. Books one and two he did, book three he didn't, then in four and five he did. On the one hand, I find it hard to believe Voldemort didn't just come right after Harry, but on the other maybe he thought killing DD was the only way to get to Harry (as great as DD's protection of Harry was). Anyhow, it was nice that most of the action took place entirely at the school and Burrow. There was almost zero interaction with "enemies." You know, Malfoy was amazingly reclusive and quiet all year, and LV didn't show his face in the story once. It felt like a breather. I was quite happy until the last few chapters. I must say, I never saw it coming. I had (and still do have) so much confidence in Snape, simply because DD did.

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Joanne R. Reid - Jul 18, 2005 8:09 am (#111 of 473)
Hi,

On Friday evening, we picked up our new Wands. Mine is oak, twelve inches in length with a mahogany handle and a Dragon Heart-String core. My House was Ravenclaw. Now, I'm an Unspeakable at the DoM. (Yes, I could tell you what I do, but then .... You get the idea!)

Properly attired, I went to my bookstore to mingle. With hat, wand and thoroughly mismatched Muggle clothing, I was right at home. Youngsters, also properly attired, gawked at me, until I winked and asked them if they were old enough to go to Hogwarts, and if so to which House did they belong. By Midnight, we had a huge gathering of young and old, eagerly awaiting our books.

At midnight, we raced into line. We were color coded, by time of arrival. I got my book at 1:05 AM. It took another half hour to pay for it and leave. By the time I got home, it was well after 2:00 AM.

I tried to read it, but life interfered. Saturday class, followed by a faculty dinner. Sunday meeting followed by family gathering. In spite of interruptions, I finished this morning at 12:30 AM.

I sat, clutching my book, for at least ten minutes. I was drained. I wept a little. But, for the most part I haven't absorbed the losses I have sustained. All those deaths! Harry's future ... not just in doubt, but in dire jeopardy. All my 'Ships had come in, but I can't rejoice.

I both dread and anticipate the final book.

Thanks,

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Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 18, 2005 1:23 am (#112 of 473)
Edited by Denise P. Jul 18, 2005 10:09 am
I know this is a HBP comment, but Trelawny seems accurate in her predicitions but doesn't realise it.

Phelim, please do not post HBP comments on the main Forum. That is clearly spelled out in the guidelines. I have moved this to the correct spot but do not do it again. Denise P.

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Chard11 - Jul 18, 2005 10:34 am (#113 of 473)
I just wanted to get a few things off my chest. It concerns what happened in the HBP and also what I think book 7 will entail. If I'm posting this in the wrong place I'm very sorry, I just don't really know where else to put it.

The ending of the HBP is a tragedy and I can't help thinking/hoping that Dumbledore isn't dead although deep down somethings telling me he is. It hurts so much even though in some strange way I expected it (I think it was the way it happened more than anything).

The note from R.A.B. seems to suggest that there could be a mysterious wizard/witch out there that was more intelligent and even more powerful than Dumbledore. I also think that, in book 7, Harry will meet this person whom will teach him all the things he lacks in order to kill Voldemort and destroy the remaining Horcruxes. I also think that R.A.B. will assist Harry in the total destruction of Voldemort.

Other things I believe will happen in book 7 are Harry's wishes to see Bill and Fleur marry, to visit Godrics Hollow and his parents graves, to return to Hogwarts (not as a student) to consult Dumbledore's portrait, if indeed, Dumbledore is dead and also the truth about Snape will be discovered.

It appears that book 7 will have a lot of information and story in considering all that I believe it to contain (and that's not to mention many other twists and story seperate to the HBP).

Again I'm sorry if this should not be posted here.

Thanks

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scoop2172000 - Jul 18, 2005 10:35 am (#114 of 473)
I agree, Joanne, that Harry's existence is in jeopardy. I'm now convinced he's going to die at the end of book 7.

The Harry-Ginny, Ron-Hermione 'ships coming in are of small comfort -- though I don't think we've seen the last of Harry/Ginny. It appears he's already trusting Ron and Hermione to help him out in his final quest to bring down Voldemort. I can see Ginny being included in the group of helpmates.

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Love2Travel - Jul 18, 2005 11:38 am (#115 of 473)
I disagree I don't see Harry's passing. I think the love factor will pull him through. The love of his friends and his love for them. He has always wanted to be a part of a family and he is now. I think he will survive LV due to that. Wounded yes, but die I don't think so. I have been wrong before.

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Herm oh ninny - Jul 18, 2005 12:27 pm (#116 of 473)
I keep trying to re-read HBP, but I can't bring myself to do it. I don't know if I can handle reading it again knowing that Dumbledore dies(even though I am a Dumbledore's really alive supporter). Has anyone re-read the book already? Does it get any easier?

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Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 18, 2005 12:34 pm (#117 of 473)
Herm oh ninny I'm about 1/3 way through. I had to stop though. I need to read it without sleep deprivation.

The death of Dumbledore is like losing a friend. I agree Elanor, raspberry jam will never be the same.

I love the humor. A vampire named Sanguini!! LPO

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Gina R Snape - Jul 18, 2005 1:02 pm (#118 of 473)
Edited by Denise P. Jul 18, 2005 8:18 pm
Ok, for those of you who need a bit of cheering up... Here's a comic by fan artist GMonkey. It's entitled "Why Snape Didn't Mind So Much" and it is only spoilery if you know WHY.

It basically catalogues Snape being tortured by DD in being denied the DADA position for the past 5 books. I thought it was funny.

Edit: Gina, I took the link out because the language used is not really Forum friendly, I hope you understand. People can email you for the link though. Denise P.

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Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 18, 2005 1:05 pm (#119 of 473)
LOL Gina. That is pretty good. LPO

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frogface - Jul 18, 2005 1:29 pm (#120 of 473)
Lol that was brilliant Gina! Before HBP I thought it quite likely that Harry would die, but now I'm not so sure. If he and Ginny surive he'll have so much more to live for. Dumbledore's death affected me the most so far without question, I still can't quite believe it! Now I understand how major Sirius Black fans felt. One can only imagine how hard it must have been for Jo to write that scene. I do think Dumbledore is dead though, not gone, but deffinatly dead.

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kingy89 - Jul 18, 2005 1:57 pm (#121 of 473)
read the new book on the way up from my hols in cornwall. i definately missed some important points that u guys hav been talkin about!

but i just wanted to annoy my mum cus she said i was being "anti-social". Roll on the ASBO's!

my first thought was "SNAPE YOU *******" but now iv calmed down and thought about it im convinced he's still on the good side and that DD told him to kill him.

However the odds are that in book 7 there will come a point where Harry will confront Snape,do something nasty while still thinkin Snape is a DE, and then realise his mistake has cost him dearly.

Just a thought

(i really like the pic 2)

i'd also like to say that by the end of the tower scene i was almost willing for Draco to say "OK DD i'll join you guys".Alas the DE's came.

I think Draco will play a HUge past on the side of good in defeating LV

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Love2Travel - Jul 18, 2005 1:59 pm (#122 of 473)
Brilliant Ginny! If you want to hold out hope for DD check out the Was the Death Real thread. There are some interesting points!

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timrew - Jul 18, 2005 1:59 pm (#123 of 473)
What I don't get is when Bill is lying in his hospital bed, all bleeding and scarred, why didn't they get Fawkes the phoenix to come and cry over him? I mean, he was doing enough crying out in Hogwarts grounds. What a waste of phoenix tears!

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Matilda the Pygmy Puff - Jul 18, 2005 2:14 pm (#124 of 473)
I have a question for the mods that may sound a bit dumb. Is it alright to change my name to something that has to do with HBP, or would it be like a spoiler? I was thinking something like Pygmy Puff or Matilda the Pygmy Puff, and that doesn't seem too spoilerish, but I want to make sure, so I'm asking.

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Solitaire - Jul 18, 2005 2:43 pm (#125 of 473)
Was anyone besides me a little disappointed that we didn't get any critical info on Lily and James?

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Hollywand - Jul 18, 2005 2:55 pm (#126 of 473)
I was, Solitaire. I think Rowling really led us off on a major Red Herring with her remarks about "Chapter One, Book Six, thirteen years in the making". I think she knew we would be thinking, "Yes, Godric's Hollow"!

Same with the "squib who does magic". Of course we couldn't figure out a character that had not been introduced yet.

I felt kind of annoyed while reading the book and getting the answers to these questions.

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Kwikspell - Jul 18, 2005 3:24 pm (#127 of 473)
Gina, that was priceless! My husband and I are still laughing!

Yes, I think we were all hoping for a Godric's Hollow chapter as Chapter 1 in HBP, but it looks like we'll get it in the 7th. Not to say that I didn't enjoy The Other Minister, it just would have been nice to get some more answers about the night James and Lily were killed.

And while we're looking ahead to book 7: Since Harry's protection will expire on his 17th birthday, I predict Death Eaters will be paying a visit to Privet Drive, giving Petunia an opportunity to perform a bit of magic to protect poor, mistreated Dudders.

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Madame Librarian - Jul 18, 2005 3:31 pm (#128 of 473)
I started reading Saturday late morning, finished Sunday night, BUT it didn't feel like a race, it didn't feel like a strain! In fact, I tried to slow it down to enjoy the great writing, neat insights into characters and really, really fine telling of manyback stories, not to mention the excellent pacing and tight scene creation with that perfect ear JKR has for dialogue and patter. The ease with which I raced through it without getting all confused has nothing to do with me, I think, but with the consummate skill JKR has shown in this book 6...it's the best so far. Well...I still love GoF, but in overall structure this one's got it to spare.

OK, gushing over now.

Ciao. Barb

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Ponine - Jul 18, 2005 3:48 pm (#129 of 473)
I really, really liked it too, Madam Librarian. I think its form is somewhat different than the others, and I would not have minded another 150 pages or so, about their life in general, but HBP is right up there with Goblet of Fire and Prisoner of Azkaban. I also appreciated how Harry was more - outwardly oriented? as opposed to OotP, where his very introverted brooding and temper and agony made me miserable. I think all in all the actual growing up process of the kids is pretty accurate and charmingly depicted, in the midst of it all... Nonetheless, I feel pretty weird though. As I have mentioned before, I don't know what to think about Dumbledore, and probably will not be able to make up my mind until book seven. Thus, I am am sort of dangling emotionally regarding Dumbledore's apparent death... I am holding off grieving, as I have hope, but I am not really hopeful, because I fear he is gone... :sad: alas, earwax...

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virgoddess1313 - Jul 18, 2005 4:01 pm (#130 of 473)
I thought the book was incredible, though extremely consise. It was very information driven and there just wasn't room as much of the... extras I suppose... that we have gotten used to. I have to say that was the most disappointing thing to me.

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tpris27 - Jul 18, 2005 4:11 pm (#131 of 473)
Thank God for this Forum! I read HPB in record time - none of my friends has even started it yet - and I'm dying to discuss it with anyone! I was totally surprised of the identity of the HBP - I guess I'm thick...I had a feeling about DD, but still wept out loud when he died. I'm just glad it wasn't any of the Weasleys (they feel like a surrogate family to me) or any of the students or beloved teachers. I'm still in shock, it's all I can think of whenever I'm not concentrating on work or my family.

I'm wondering if Snape (while saying the AK curse out loud) was actually casting a spell to put him in a fake death, and that the tomb in which DD was placed is some kind of stasis chamber to fool Voldemort into false sense of triumph? At least that's what I'm hoping for...either that, DD has put half of his soul into a Horcrux so he can be revived later...Only JKR knows...

On the Ron/Hermione thing...it seemed totally natural that they would be so pig-headed throughout most of the school term - typical teenage reaction!

Book 7 will be very intense - I hope it's big and meaty with info - I don't care how many pages it is. I feel that Harry will survive his battle with Voldemort - he'll be a bloody mess, (mentally as well as physically) but with the love and support from the Weasleys, Hermione and the members of the DA and the Order he'll pull through.

I Hope!!

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Julie Aronson - Jul 18, 2005 5:06 pm (#132 of 473)
Along the line of horcruxes, I think Harry was one for Voldemort, and could perhaps have absorbed a chunk of Dumbledore, too.

RE: Voldemort, Harry's was supposed to be the symbolic death that would seal his immortality. However, this plan backfired, and I think the bit of V's powers were actually transferred into Harry via the portion of his soul.

RE: Dumbledore, when he realized that Harry was not going to escape the execution of his grand plan,(yes, I believe he was pleading with Snape to kill him) found a way to turn his death into a bit of soul transfer, and chose to live on in Harry. Perhaps this is another way for Harry to be "Dumbledore's man, through and through."

Commentary???

EDIT: Well, this really WAS an original idea, but I see that several others posted it before me. Oh well...

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I Am Used Vlad - Jul 18, 2005 5:22 pm (#133 of 473)
Before HBP I thought it quite likely that Harry would die, but now I'm not so sure. If he and Ginny survive he'll have so much more to live for. frogface

I hope you're right. I have always thought, since my first reading of PS/SS, that Harry would die in the end. But now that Harry being the last Horcrux who has to sacrifice himself in order to vanquish Voldemort is the "obvious" end of the series, and JKR never goes for the obvious, I'm hoping that Harry and Ginny both survive and end up together.

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Denise P. - Jul 18, 2005 7:22 pm (#134 of 473)
If you feel you must change your user name, please make sure it is not something that is a spoiler. I think it would be fine to change it to Pgymy Puff but not be okay to change to something like Dumbledore's Pall Bearer. Since this came up, please, please don't change your avatar or second line to something that is a spoiler either. Once we are back out in the open on the Main Forum, this may be subject to change.

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Chemyst - Jul 18, 2005 9:24 pm (#135 of 473)
Did anyone else get the feeling that sometimes she was reading off a list of our questions and answering them as she wrote? - Marie E Yes, the first three chapters were like that., then it lightened up.
The writing of Tonks was bizarre; the Tonks of OP was upbeat, not beat up.
The slug emphasis was giving me Jabba the Hut contamination; the new potions teacher seemed more leech than slug. Toads fit Umbridge much better; speaking of which, that was sort of funny at the funeral- celebrities and VIPs often sit up front where the cameras are at state funerals, but she moved further from the centaurs.
And how did Draco suddenly leap from big fish in small pond to small fish in big pond? All this because Bella tutored him for a couple weeks and gave him some occlumency lessons? Who knew what a little motivation could accomplish!
And the Harry/Ginny break-up has to be one of the dorkiest on record. Romance starts building beautifully with 'the creature within', it explodes in the quidditch-win kiss, and then "Ginny, we can't be involved. We've got to stop seeing each other." Is this Hogwarts, or Sweet Valley High? A good old-fashioned "Give me a locket of your hair as a token until I return from slaying the evil monster Voldemort" would have been more palatable than, "I just wish I'd ask you sooner.. we could have had ages... months... " Oh, Harry, get a clue.
...why didn't they get Fawkes the phoenix to come and cry over him? I mean, he was doing enough crying out in Hogwarts grounds. What a waste of phoenix tears! - Timrew Me too! ...perhaps that leaves me with the emotional depth of a teaspoon, but I wondered the same thing.

Despite my gripes, it is still one of the better books in the series.

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jaylay - Jul 18, 2005 9:44 pm (#136 of 473)
I refuse to believe that JK would undermine the power of Dumbledore by having him "plead" with Snape to spare him from death. Dumbledore never demonstrated a fear of death in previous books, but i'm sure once we learn the truth we will look back at the event as one of undeniable bravery and courage- further enhancing his reputation as the greatest of all wizards. I am sure deep down we all have this feeling that Dumbledore, weak as he was, would never submit to pleading for his life, it was most definately pleading with Snape to kill him, creating the illusion to all doubters (Ballatrix, etc) that would ensure his return to the Death Eaters was fullproof and his allegiance to Voldemort now undeniable. Even better when Harry and co. believe him to have turned. Like a perfectly placed Chess piece. I have never read in any of the previous books for Dumbledore to fear his own demise. I would have imagined him telling Snape something along the lines of "i am most disappointed Severus" if Snape were truly turned and Dumbledore truly fearful. I believe he stopped Harry not because he felt Harry to be in any danger, but that the plan itself might have been thwarted by him (Harry). Interesting that Snape avoided conflict with other individuals fighting in the school when the Death Eaters when in a winning battle, instead choosing to flee.

BY THE WAY HARRY IS ALMOST SURELY A HORCRUX. I thought I was a genious until I read everyone else posting this view

"Neither can live while the other survives" what an exit- to finally defeat Voldemort the person, then asking your friends to destroy the final horcrux, knowing it is inside you, or maybe even place them under the imperious curse because they cannot do what they have been asked. He might even do it himself in one final show of strength or better still, smile as his death eaters surround him, knowing that they are about to detroy their master and that he will soon be joined with his family and friends on the other side. Both Harry and Voldemort destroyed together.

Maybe thats why he speaks Parseltongue and has developed other interesting talents.

jaylay what an exit

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Amilia Smith - Jul 18, 2005 9:52 pm (#137 of 473)
I also felt like she was deliberately answering our questions, but I kind of enjoyed it. All the little nagging questions that had been bugging me. Even "Can you resit OWLs?" was answered!

It also made me feel like I was part of a community. In the in crowd. Caught the inside jokes. Very cool.

On that note: I was rolling around laughing with this line. It is from ch. 25, "The Seer Overheard." Hermione is pestering Harry about the identity of the Half-Blood Prince again.

"He, he -- who says it's a he?"
"We've been through this," said Harry crossly. "Prince, Hermione, Prince."

After all the discussions we had over the identiy of the Prince, and who we could definently cross off our list.

Chemyst: Tonks had me worried too. I was getting very suspicious of her due to a)her personality change, b)her loss of metamorpmangi ability, and c)her new patronus.

Was anyone else bothered by Harry randomly hexing people just because he could?

I didn't cry. Which is odd as I bawled like a baby at the end of OotP, and Dumbledore definently trumps Sirius. I ended up pacing the floor of my dorm room for hours. I was left more unsettled than saddened. Probably hasn't hit me yet. It just felt so odd to end a HP book with no Dumbledore tells all scene. And the prospect of a HP book with no Dumbledore, no Hogwarts, and possibly no Ron and Hermione (although I do think they will talk Harry into letting them accompany him, in which case, it would not surprise me at all to see Ginny along for the ride too). Also, considering how I have never really liked Snape, it is surprising how betrayed I feel. The formula is breaking down.

Mills.

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Hand Of Glory - Jul 19, 2005 12:49 am (#138 of 473)
Yeah the moment I read that Snape killed Dumbledore I just stopped reading for a minute and stared at the page... I was expecting him to die, but not at the hand of Snape! I immediately guessed that Dumbledore had asked him to kill him though... Dumbledore beg after assuring that "To an organized mind Death is nothing but another adventure" (or something to the lines of that) NEVER! I don't ever see Dumbledore begging to be saved.

Oh and the fact that the Death Eaters used Fred and George's stuff... that was horrible. Like getting hit in the head with your own boomerang throw...

I really loved how this book left a ton of room for speculation - I need something HP related to pass the years it will take her to finish book 7. Wherever I am and Whenever it comes out , I will buy it ASAP!

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Rod Beecham - Jul 19, 2005 1:29 am (#139 of 473)
Oh boy oh boy oh boy: I finished the book in a day and ever since I've been exploding to talk to other people who've read it! I thought it was a masterpiece - my admiration for JKR goes up and up - and I want to be smug about guessing the identity of the Half-Blood Prince (although I imagine many of you did, too). I hadn't given it any thought, but as soon as JKR described the handwriting in the Potions book as "crabbed" I knew it was Snape, because she'd described his handwriting in that way in the Pensieve flashback in OOP (when Harry sees his father taunt the young Snape after the DADA exam). My question is: Why did Snape leave that book behind? He's a very organized man - when he changed jobs he would have taken his things with him - so I don't believe it was an accident.

Like many of you, I think Dumbledore is dead (the scene tore me apart), and like some of you, I think Snape made an Unbreakable Vow to Dumbledore - and I think his own (i.e. Snape's) death is part of that vow. I believe he will give his life to save Harry. Book 7 will allow us to see Voldemort, Snape and Harry in a scene - probably the climactic scene - together for the first and only time. What a finale!

Someone posted - correctly - that you have to mean an Unforgivable Curse, so Snape must be evil. I think there's a way around that one, though. Bellatrix Lestrange told Harry in OOP that he needed to mean "Crucio" to hurt her (though he obviously meant it enough for her to feel something unpleasant, because she was no longer laughing at Harry when she told him this). The scene implies that there are levels of intensity to the Unforgivable Curses (remember Moody telling the DADA class in GOF that if they pointed their wands at him and uttered the Killing Curse he wouldn't get so much as a nosebleed?). Dumbledore was very weak - perhaps near death - on the tower, so Snape wouldn't have had to put much force into his curse. He's shown himself to be the third most powerful wizard in the world, after Dumbledore and Voldemort, and given his powers of mind control it would be a simple matter for him to regulate the strength of a curse.

Finally, on the subject of Snape's mind control, I want to go back and re-read every scene in which JKR describes Snape's expression as "unfathomable". I have an idea that she's telling us he's using Occlumency when he looks like that, which means that he's guarding his real thoughts in the scene. In HBP he looked "unfathomable" just prior to making his Unbreakable Vow and when he emerged from the classroom in which he'd been speaking to Malfoy. Uncovering the trail of "unfathomable" looks may tell us much about Snape's motivations.

Sorry, very long post, but I'm excited!

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Alex Thorpe - Jul 19, 2005 1:42 am (#140 of 473)
Gah! I swore to myself I wouldn't join any more online chatboards for lack of time, but until my brother-in-law or work colleagues finish reading it I've had to find somewhere else to use as a testing ground for my theories! I'm quite relieved to see that a lot of people have the same ideas about potential Snape-redemption and Draco-redemption, and that I wasn't the only person chuffed at H/G, and peeved when they split up. My brain's fizzing too much to be proper coherent yet, but I'm sure it will be better when I've read HBP for the 3rd of 4th time!

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MTW - Jul 19, 2005 6:01 am (#141 of 473)
When Tonks found Harry was trying to get into the room of requirement. Did anybody else wonder why Tonks was on 7th Floor ? Her explanation didn't ring true.

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siliconsmiley - Jul 19, 2005 6:20 am (#142 of 473)
Howdy folks. I used to post here a while back, but took a break from the hype to allow HBP to enter my mind fresh. I've read it and am working my way though a second more careful read through.

I was immediately suspicious of Dumbledore's death scene. The pleading seemed funny to me too. I have read a couple post here from others that agree. Dumbledore does not plead.

On my second reading, I came up with an idea about Snape's appointment to the DADA teaching post. Dumbledore knew the position was jinxed by Voldemort. He admitted as much to Harry. I believe that Dumbledore finally gave Snape the position because he knew that it would be Snape's last year in the castle.

Snape will be redeemed completely in the eyes of Voldemort and the Death Eaters now. He will be "honored above all others" as Snape says to Bellatrix and Narcissa in chapter 2. Placing him in a perfect position to betray Voldemort in the end.

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siliconsmiley - Jul 19, 2005 6:28 am (#143 of 473)
Just reading Rod's post continuing the discussion about Snape's killing curse. If the curse didn't kill Dumbledore, the fall certainly did. No boggie marsh for Dumbledore to land in on his fall from the tall tower.

But I would have suspected more blood where Dumbledore landed. Perhaps JKR just left out that gruesome detail for the kids. Or perhaps....

So many questions answered, yet so many more still remain.

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siliconsmiley - Jul 19, 2005 6:31 am (#144 of 473)
MTW - I wondered the same about Tonks showing up inside the castle and especially on the 7th floor. When she escorted Harry up from the train she did not enter the castle grounds. She merely passed him on to Snape who unlocked the gate from the inside and escorted Harry the rest of the way to the castle. More questions...

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Loopy Lupin - Jul 19, 2005 6:44 am (#145 of 473)
Silicon, welcome back.

You posted three times within a span of 13 minutes. As long as you are within 30, you can simply edit your original post. I think the Forum would appreciate that as I believe there are implications regarding the number of posts made for a thread.

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Ponine - Jul 19, 2005 6:59 am (#146 of 473)
Rod - The miniscule, cramped writing gave it away for me too - I was actually kind of surprised that Harry did not recognize it, as he on both occasions specifically noticed the handwriting's characteristics.

As far as Dumbledore's fall is concerned - DD certainly broke Harry's fall when he fell out of the sky after the Dementor attack... Whether he did it or someone else, I think it fully possible that his peculiar reaction to the AK signals a few other spells at work as well...

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Vaughn - Jul 19, 2005 7:28 am (#147 of 473)
I just posted the following on the overview thread and then came here are read what Rod wrote. So I thought I would add it to this discussion as well.

As for the whole Snape killing DD issue, or being forced to kill him, (I believe he is really dead) I don't believe he died from the AK curse, even though snape obviously performed it. I think that DD died because he was so week from the potion that when he fell from the tower and hit the ground he was killed on impact. I don't think Snape could have actually killed him with the AK if he was still loyal to DD. So he performed the AK but it was not powerful enough to kill (ala fake Moody in GOF telling the class that they could perform it and he might get a nosebleed) and he silently performed a stunning spell which threw DD off the tower. From the way the scene was written I think that the Petrificus Totalus that DD put on Harry did not come off the moment Snape performed the AK, but after DD fell to the ground.

I think DD sacrificed himself, knowing that Harry was the more important one to survive and that it was also important to save Malfoy from the act of killing, and Snape understood this. I also believe that Snapes position as a death eater whom LV trusts is so important that DD had a similar conversation with Snape as with Harry, essentially telling Snape that he is more important at this point than DD is. That is what the argument that Hagrid overheard was about.

One last thing, I think DD froze Harry so that the scene with Draco would be witnessed by Harry so that he would understand just how important our choices are and that DD believes it is better for him to die, to sacrifice his body (because we know that death is not the end), than to have Draco (or any child) sacrifice their soul.

I am also wondering how HRH new about Draco having the Hand of Glory. I am pretty sure it is no where in the books. We only knew he had it because JKR told us. So how did they find out?

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Choices - Jul 19, 2005 8:12 am (#148 of 473)
So many new questions. I have another that occured to me - what possible effect would it have on Dumbledore that he was full of that strange and unknown potion when Snape AK'ed him? That was really odd that he had to drink so much of the potion and while he was under it's spell in the cave he begged Harry not to make him drink any more. Could that potion have done something to Dumbledore to make the events that followed not be what they seemed to be? Could it have been the Draught of the Living Death? Just wondering out loud.....

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Mark Rotchell - Jul 19, 2005 8:12 am (#149 of 473)
Loved the book. Loved it.

There were a few things I would have liked to have seen. The H/G ship had nothing too it IMO. I appreciate that JKR can't put in a lot of things, being a childrens book, but I would have liked at least some bit of plot that involved them as a couple actually doing something together.

I was also quite dismayed that although Harry see's fawkes often he never even says hello to the bird, nor makes a fuss of it. This is the bird that saved him from the chamber of secrets and the bird that gave him his wand. I would have thought he might have some affection for it. Then again even Hedwig seems to receieve little attention.

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Weeny Owl - Jul 19, 2005 9:02 am (#150 of 473)
Oh and the fact that the Death Eaters used Fred and George's stuff... that was horrible. Like getting hit in the head with your own boomerang throw...

There's that, but there's also one more thing the twins did that no one realized would be so serious and so tragic... they're the ones who stuffed Montague into the Vanishing Cabinet. If they hadn't done that, the Death Eaters might not have been able to infiltrate Hogwarts.

[Julia H.]

Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince Book Read Along (Chapter by Chapter Discussions Folder - General Discussion - Posts 151-200)

Silverlight - Jul 19, 2005 9:41 am (#151 of 473) [/b]
It really comes down to if you believe DD's trust in Snape.

I can't make myself believe that Snape could hoodwink DD from book one, that makes DD look like a fool --

There is obviously something that DD knows about Snape that no one else does. I really don't believe it is a spell or an "unbreakable vow". It must go deeper then that, something about Snape's moral character that DD knows he would never fall to the death eater's side.

DD is always telling Harry to treat Snape with respect, through all of the books regardless of Snape's behavior. I think it is because that DD knows of all of them, Snape is sacrifing the most for the fight against Vold. It will be interesting to find out in book 7 what Snape has really sacrificed.

I'm almost sure that as others have said, Harry is a Horcrux. It would fit with him speaking parsiltongue, his connection with Vold about his emotional state -- the prophecy -- it pretty much all fits. I'm guessing Vold was going to use Harry's death as to split his soul, but wasn't expecting the protection his mother had given him, and somehow ends up putting a piece of his soul into Harry, instead of actually killing him. Also why Vold does not want anyone to kill Harry but himself, because he needs to be there when Harry dies to reclaim his soul. Why else would he just not have one of his minions kill him? Really no other reason I can think of.

As far as DD's death, hmm that is a hard one. I'm not convinced he's really dead. The portraits of the previous headmasters go up when there is a new headmaster, no nesssailry when they die. Contious referees to the sleeping poition, and the very description in the book when DD falls has the word sleep in it. The firey "burst" like explosion around his corpse-- or his sleeping corpse and then he casts a spell. Where is Fawkes when he is fighting on the tower?

Draco is really the next in line to lead the death eaters, with his father in prison. Contious references to his family being powerful/rich/ influential in the wizarding community. His father wants him to take up the mantle, and forces him to promise to Vold that Draco will kill DD.

Draco in his heart is not evil, and can't do it. DD knows this. His mother is afraid for him since he promised Vold, and makes Snape take the vow to protect Draco.

So, if DD does not "die", then Draco will die because of his unfulfilled vow to Lord Vold. But Snape had to make a vow to protect him, so when Draco cannot kill DD, DD makes Snape do it. Keeping Draco safe, and keeping Snape obviously in the good graces of Vold.

If DD could fake his death well enough that everyone thinks he's dead, then the vows are fulfilled. And if everyone thinks he's dead, he is in a powerful position to help with the cause.

Or he truly could be dead, but there sure where alot of hints in the book to make me suspicious about that.

The other thing, what was so important about learning about Tom Riddle's past? (Lord Vold.) Ok, we learned through that one memory that Harry got that there are 6 other pieces of his soul floating around, and they must be destroyed before anything else can be done.

What about all the other stuff? What was so significant about it? I'm thinking it was to give Harry compassion for Lord Vold., to show the reason why he was evil. DD keeps referring that Love is the most powerful force of all -- I'm guess the way that Harry Defeats Vold is something to do with compassion and loving one's enemy in a sense, rather then physical force. Why else show Harry all this past stuff about Tom Riddle? It's not really relevant except for the 6 soul shards.

Also, I can't imagine that they would cancel school for the next term, that is the main background for all of JK's books -- book seven would have to be radically different to pull this off, I just don't see that happening.

Great book, very sad ending, although I'm thinking that DD is going to show up somewhere toward the end of book 7 -- maybe I just want to believe he is still alive, but there are alot of suspicious things that hint he may not be dead.

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May Crook - Jul 19, 2005 10:35 am (#152 of 473)
Silverlight, I know it is hard to believe that Dumbledore is dead but I believe he is dead but not gone. I think he will be able to communicate through his portrait like Phineas and just think of all the wizard cards out there for him to give his words of wisdom.

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Herm oh ninny - Jul 19, 2005 10:43 am (#153 of 473)
I really don't believe that Harry is a Horcrux. This is because when Harry dies, then so does the piece of Voldemorts soul. I don't believe that Voldemort would ever allow that to happen. He is way too afraid of death. If he put a piece of his soul into Harry, then he would never want him to be killed.

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siliconsmiley - Jul 19, 2005 10:45 am (#154 of 473)
Edited by Jul 19, 2005 11:51 am
Something else I just thought of. Dumbledore was Secret Keeper for 12 Grimald Place. What happens to the enchantments placed on it if he dies? Would it's location now be revealable?

Herm oh ninny - Voldemort certainly does not believe that Harry is a horcrux. It would be a bit of poetic justice if Harry were though. Especially if Voldemort tried to kill Harry again and in doing so he ended his own existence.

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May Crook - Jul 19, 2005 10:54 am (#155 of 473)
My opinion is that the secret will die with him so that It would be impossible to tell anyone else where grimwald place is. only those who have been told by Dumbledore will ever be able to re-enter #12. Unless he can give away the location from any of his hundreds of remaining portraits.

Silverlight - Jul 19, 2005 10:58 am (#156 of 473) [/b]
I don't think Vold intended for Harry to be a Horcruk, I think it was a mistake. Vold didn't know about his mother casting that protection spell around Harry when she died, I think it was an unintentional side-effect --

Why else would he care if someone else killed Harry?

Yea, DD might be really gone... But all the talk of that sleep potion in the begining, the specific reference to sleep when DD dies. The fact that Falkwes isn't around on the tower to save him -- his corpse went up in a flash much like the phoniex-- all the references to he isn't really dead if we continue to follow him type of things. Although Falkwes singing certianly was haunting --

Also, the fact that the portrait of DD in the room was sleeping, and facing away from the viewer. You assumed it was DD, but it might of been something/someone else.

Guess we have a couple of years to think about it -- argg heh.

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Solitaire - Jul 19, 2005 11:32 am (#157 of 473)
Didn't Sirius say his father had put a lot of enchantments on 12GP? It could still be sufficiently hidden, although DEs might know its whereabouts. I suppose Harry will have to re-enter it early in Book 7. He's going to have to remember about that locket. And if he has forgotten, surely Hermione will remind him!

I also thought it was interesting that, in the memories about Tom Riddle's mother, Dumbledore tells Harry that unrequired love and its attendant despair could have sapped Merope of her powers. This certainly appears to be what was happening to Tonks early on in the book.

Solitaire

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siliconsmiley - Jul 19, 2005 11:48 am (#158 of 473)
Yeah, there were lots of other enchantments on 12 GP. But with the Secret Keeper dead, Snape could reveal it's location under questioning. I have a feeling that 12 GP will be pretty important.

There is a more detailed discussion of this in the Order of the Pheonix thread as well.

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Weeny Owl - Jul 19, 2005 12:11 pm (#159 of 473)
I really don't believe that Harry is a Horcrux. This is because when Harry dies, then so does the piece of Voldemorts soul. I don't believe that Voldemort would ever allow that to happen. He is way too afraid of death. If he put a piece of his soul into Harry, then he would never want him to be killed.

I agree with this, but mainly because I don't think it could happen as an accident. Slughorn said that it was a complicated bit of magic, and Voldemort was busy trying to kill his rival. I just don't think he would be thinking of a Horcrux or trying to do anything that complicated when all he wanted was to kill Harry.

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May Crook - Jul 19, 2005 12:33 pm (#160 of 473)
siliconsmiley In chapter 19 of poa Sirius says "Believe me Harry. I never betrayed James and Lily. I would have died before I betrayed them." This leads me to believe that if a secret keeper dies the secret remains a secret forever so, anyone who has not already been told cannot be told of the location. I don't think spells and enchantments are lifted when a wizard dies but a Hex will be lifted and It was a freezing hex that Dumbledore put on Harry.

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K Michaelis - Jul 19, 2005 12:50 pm (#161 of 473)
I am one of the (apparently) many who believe this book was in some way a setup. I've not yet really decided about the DD being dead/fake-dead/resurrected thing yet. BUT, I do know that almost nothing in this book is as it seems.

So that got me to wondering, "what if everything really is as it seems?" Can I accept that? Will I accept it? Will I accept that DD and Fawkes are gone, never to return? Will I accept that Snape really is a DE through and through, and that he murdered DD? I really don't know if I can make peace with that. What if it ends up being true?

JKR has said that she loves reading all our theories. Well that's fine and good, but I hope she realizes that the proliferation of the DD-isn't-gone and Snape-is-still-loyal-to-DD theories means that vast majority of her audience hope beyond all hopes that she was just setting us up.

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Mrs Brisbee - Jul 19, 2005 1:33 pm (#162 of 473)
Will I accept that Snape really is a DE through and through, and that he murdered DD? I really don't know if I can make peace with that. What if it ends up being true? --K Michaelis

Actually, I hope it is true, because I've always disliked Snape. However, there are too many clues pointing to Snape and Dumbledore having arranged the death beforehand, so I have to believe --like most other people, apparently-- that Snape killed Dumbledore on Dumbledore's orders.

If Snape does turn out to be truly on the side of Voldemort in the end, though, I think that that would contain an important lesson for kids in how Harry felt about Snape-- trust your instincts if you feel someone is a bad person. If someone demands that you trust that person on their say so, but with no good reason to back it up, remain dubious.

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Sadie - Jul 19, 2005 1:38 pm (#163 of 473)
You make an excellent point K Michaelis. When I turned the page and read the line as Snape killed Dumbledore, an electric shock went through me. I'm not sure how I would feel if it all turns out to be true. That Dumbledore is completely gone, and a lying, traitor, evil Snape murdered him so coldly. A level of evil I am not sure could really be true.

i hope

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Rod Beecham - Jul 19, 2005 1:41 pm (#164 of 473)
I had to check this thread again before I leave for work - pathetic, isn't it?

I may be misremembering, but isn't it a furphy that Voldemort has decreed that only he may kill Harry Potter? I don't recall any such instruction. I know in GOS he ordered the Death Eaters to leave Harry to him, but that was just in that moment, I thought. And, as I recall, Harry's supposed possession of the prophecy protected him for most of the Ministry duel in OOP.

So the Death Eaters in HBP were being remarkably careless in trying to kill Harry, weren't they? I think Snape protected Harry again, his words carrying (bogus) conviction due to his status as Most Favoured Death Eater and Killer of Dumbledore.

Another thought I've had is based on Dumbledore's speech about the prophecy being true only because Voldemort has decided that it's true. I think - wait for it, this is big! - that Neville, not Harry, will kill Voldemort in Book 7. That new unicorn hair wand, the fact that he was almost invisible in HBP except for that rather significant detail, the fact that he and Luna were the only ones besides Ron, Hemione and Ginny to fight the good fight . . . I think the prophecy is about Neville.

You can see the final twist: an absolute nail-biter of a final scene between Harry Voldemort and Snape; Harry unsure of Snape's loyalties, revelation spilling from the conversation as Harry connects the words of Snape and Voldemort to past events, Snape having to come clean at last, being killed by Voldemort while protecting Harry, Harry seemingly lost and then - ZAP! - Voldemort is dead, and the strange, sad, almost funny but yet dignified and heroic face of Neville Longbottom appears from somewhere . . .

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kingy89 - Jul 19, 2005 2:05 pm (#165 of 473)
That would cetainly be interesting but i hope it doesnt turn out like that.

It just doesn't seem fair that we'v been following the wrong man for 6 whole books.

But it certainly has merits,and adds a whole new range of possible outcomes.At the moment we only have 'harry kills LV' or 'LV kills harry'.With Neville as the possible hero there are several possible outcomes apart from the aformentioned ones, like : 'Neville kills LV' or 'LV kills harry and then Neville' or 'LV kills harry and is then killed by Neville' or even 'harry and Neville kill LV together'

The only problem is that would mean the prophecy was wrong and that the 'marked one' wouldn't kill LV.

And whats the point of a prophecy if it isn't correct.Either it's true or it ain't and i think it is.

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 19, 2005 2:07 pm (#166 of 473)
Did anyone see where Dumbledore's wand got off to? I know it flew over the rampart, as did Dumbledore. Body recovered, but no mention of his wand. JKR sure seems to lose track of a lot of wands.

Edit: She even lost the wandmaker in this book!

...toddles off elsewhere...

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bella - Jul 19, 2005 2:53 pm (#167 of 473)
I am really torn about the Harry as a Horcrux theory. We would need to know more about how they are made. I think that it is possible being that it was with Harry's murder he was planning to make the last one with. It would explain some of the power transfer. But it means that there are eight instead of the original seven.

There is something very wrong with this theory however. Voldemort could not stand to be inside of Harry so the possibility of part of his soul permanantly residing there seems unlikely. Not to mention Dumbledore finds it odd how much control Voldemort has over Nagini, and we have never seen an instance of this happening with Harry (although it would have proven very useful to Voldemort).

The retrieval of the soul from the Horcrux is also important missing information. It might be that Harry was at one point one but with the use of his blood in the rebirthing...

The last thing I have to say has entirely to do with something that has bothered me since we found out about the prophecy, and if someone has some insight I would be really grateful. "Neither can live while the other survives" is Harry not living?

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Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 19, 2005 2:55 pm (#168 of 473)
LOL TBE I do hope she finds the wandmaker. Too many ships united not to believe the next generation will be needing some wands.

I hope we get the opportunity to get to know Aberforth in the next book. We have one Dumbledore left! LPO

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Ponine - Jul 19, 2005 3:14 pm (#169 of 473)
LOL TBE!! I am not really into the whole Harry the Horcrux theories, at least not yet, but it would be wonderful irony if Voldemort somehow is down to his last piece of soul, to put it that way, fetches the one Harry has been keeping for him, only to find that it has been horribly corrupted by love, and destroys him from within... Loved to death, practically... - - - - - - - - - -
bella - I have been wondering about that too - As it seems, they are both currently living or surviving, and thus, contradicting the prophecy.

EDIT: ARGH!!! I was trying to do some cleaning, and decided to read-all on the main forum - lo and behold, no all of these show up as read too!!! What is a girl to do??

Oh, and about Snape and Lily and Voldemort - could it be that, as Snape was the one who told LV about the prophecy, that he asked LV to spare Lily as a personal favor or reward?

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[b]Finn BV - Jul 19, 2005 5:04 pm (#170 of 473)
TBE, that's what I was thinking as I read that chapter (over and over and over) again! It says something like "it flew over the rampart," but as we Americans aren't the brightest little bulbs, the only definition of "rampart" we know of is that in "The Star-Spangled Banner," and we probably still don't know what it means! Of course, I know it means some sort of defensive barrier (), but does that mean it flies out the window or what? I really was wondering what happened to it.

And, alas, poor wandmaker. Wands just didn't cut it with the publishers this time around, huh?

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Wendelin the Weird - Jul 19, 2005 6:47 pm (#171 of 473)
Not 100% sure about the Harry is a horcrux debate. Im still undecided, but I think our mysterious quote: "But in essence divided?" could be a clue here. Rather than speaking of Harry, was DD suspecting that part of LV's soul was residing in the serpent that attacked Arthur? Or was it about Harry and LV? I think that might be interesting to look into.

The big thing I dont get about Harry becoming a horcrux for LV's soul piece is that Slughorn tells Riddle that you have to say an incantation in order to place the soul in the carrier. So, if LV said the incantation he would be well aware that Harry had a bit of his soul, right? That doesnt seem to fit with me...

However, the fact that Harry destroyed LV's horcrux which was possessing Ginny interests me a good deal. When the diary was destroyed, the piece of the soul was destroyed, but was some of the remaining power from the horcrux transfered to Ginny? I'm not sure about that, but I still think that its interesting to ponder.

How does the life debt to James play out for Snape? By causing James death (revealing the prophecy to LV) does that do some harm to Snape? He basically owed him a life debt and never repaid him. I would like to learn more about this. I wonder if a life debt could then be passed down to his offspring and Snape would have to attone for his mistake in causing James' death by saving Harry.

This book answered many questions and raised a million more! Aaaaagh! But I love it, you know I do. he eheee

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tpris27 - Jul 19, 2005 7:53 pm (#172 of 473)
You know, I would really like to get a hold of the UK versions of the books...apparently (from what I've read) some of the text is different - written with British dialects and such, which might confuse those of us who live in the US, and might not know what certain words mean. For instance, in OotP when the Advanced Guard came to get Harry from Privet Drive, Tonks said "Ooooh! He looks just like I thought he would...Wotcher, Harry!"....wotcher? As an American I don't have a clue what that word is - I guess I'm a bit dim...But, dialects or not, I would rather read the novels in the original form it was written, not in an Americanized version as if we were too thick to figure it out! I tried to buy them online from a UK bookseller, but I was denied - I guess Scholastic has the US market cornered. The only way I can possibly get a hold of a set is to get it through eBay, or find someone from th UK to mail a set to me. Either way it's going to cost an arm and a leg, but it's worth it!

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Amilia Smith - Jul 19, 2005 8:16 pm (#173 of 473)
Tpris: There was a discussion about "Wotcher" over on the main forum a while back, and Timrew gave us a definition. Keep reading down the thread for a bit as well, it's very interesting. Also, have you tried amazon.uk.co? I got the Stephen Fry audio recordings from them, and they had no problem shipping them to me in the states.

This is off the current topic of discussion, but I have been wondering. How would the Half-Blood Prince storyline have fitted into CoS? Somehow I have trouble picturing Harry suddenly becoming an ace at Potions by following Snape's directions clear back in Year 2. I can buy the premise that Harry is now able to follow Snapes directions when Snape himself is no longer looming over him and distracting him. But Snape still would have been there in CoS. Unless the plot of CoS was originally majorly different than it is now.

Incidentally, I found it interesting that when Snape was Potions Master, he wrote the directions up on the board. When Slughorn was Master, he had the kids reading the directions out of the textbook.

Mills.

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Wendelin the Weird - Jul 19, 2005 8:58 pm (#174 of 473)
Hmmm there is something interesting about Snape using the board instead of a book. That was a very well hidden hint that he didnt think the textbooks were up to snuff. He really is incredibly intelligent.. frankly Im amazed.

I have copies of the Canadian books and they are the same as the Bloomsbury editions if I understand correctly. You can get them on EBay with no problem. I got two hard backs in mint condition for a song and they have the original British text from what I can gather.

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tpris27 - Jul 19, 2005 9:20 pm (#175 of 473)
Thanks for the info on "wotcher" and the UK book versions...

I'm really not suprised that Snape would be augmenting potions in the book, and eventually inventing his own potions. As someone who is an avid cook, I am constantly changing recipes I see in books to make them better, because I'm convinced that half the people who write cookbooks haven't a clue as to what they are doing...I would assume that potion-making would be the same. Experimenting is what makes a potion-maker (or a chef) great at what they do. As much as Snape wanted to be a Voldemort wanna-be (wanting to delve into the Dark Arts and be the DADA Professor)his true art was a Potions Master - helping Lupin with his "time of the month" antidote, and DD with his maladies...etc. It's too bad he's such a schmuck...he would be a brilliant professor instead of a vicious bully.

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Mrs. D. - Jul 19, 2005 9:50 pm (#176 of 473)
I am pretty sure there is a typo in the American version of the book as it refers to "fug" on the window rather than fog. Unless fug is actually a word I have not yet come across.

I cannot believe there are no other written dissapointments over the H/G thing. If it carries out, and probably it will, then I will be just fine when the last book is done and over.

They play up the H/H in the films, JKR is so careful with the films and how they stay true to the novels, I wonder why this is so if she plans for Harry to end up with Ginny. I think she is strong and a great kid but I don't have her much farther up than Luna.

I am sorry to see I am alone in all this. I truly miss Mr. D. at a time like this. ;o)

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Wendelin the Weird - Jul 19, 2005 9:59 pm (#177 of 473)
HA! Yes, I noticed fug too! There was another typo I caught but I dont recall where. I remember thinking... hmm is that even a word?! I also caught some quotes that were never closed at the ends of paragraphs. Sheesh, Ive been reading too many books on editing lately methinks.

Another thing that kinda bugged me that I never noticed in the other books but that I see in Jo's speech during interviews, is she added a lot of extra 'done's in dialogue. I wish I could find an example... I recall a couple of instances of this with Hermione and once with Lupin I think. Not that its bad to have that in there, maybe the American versions had those edited out in previous editions.

I didnt feel like the editing in this book was particularly as good as the others although I think it has replaced PoA as my favorite now. The plot is excellent here and very uniquely drawn.

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Amilia Smith - Jul 19, 2005 10:01 pm (#178 of 473)
They play up the H/H in the films, . . .

Funnily enough, I felt they played up Ron/Hermione in the films. Just goes to show how much is in the eye of the beholder. :-)

I almost got the feeling in this book that JKR was trying to put all of the shipping wars to rest once and for all so that we could concentrate on what was really important. Everyone, even Filch and Madame Pince (book Pince, not forumer Pince :-)), hooked up with someone.

Don't worry, though, Mrs. D, I know there were more H/H shippers out there than just you. Not sure where they all are at the moment . . .

Mills.

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Kazius - Jul 19, 2005 10:05 pm (#179 of 473)
Interesting thought that occured to me as I was rereading the Dumbledore Death scene.

If Dumbledore wanted to prevent himself from dying, he could have used Fawkes the Phoenix to block Snape's attempt to kill him, but he chose not to.

This, in my mind, shows that Dumbledore knew he was going to die, and chose to allow it to happen.

Interesting tidbit, Lestrange only says that you need evil and hatred to preform Crucio, yet there is no mention of that being needed for AK.

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siliconsmiley - Jul 20, 2005 4:31 am (#180 of 473)
Edited by Jul 20, 2005 6:37 am
Thanks May Crook. It seems that you are probably correct. I would think that there would be a way to pass the role of Secret Keeper along to somebody else. Otherwise you could never invite over any new guests.

In other news, fug does not appear to be a typo. From thefreedictionary.com:

fug n. A heavy, stale atmosphere, especially the musty air of an overcrowded or poorly ventilated room: "In spite of the open windows the stench had become a reeking fug" Colleen McCullough.

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Hollywand - Jul 20, 2005 5:02 am (#181 of 473)
"I cannot believe there are no other written dissapointments over the H/G thing. If it carries out, and probably it will, then I will be just fine when the last book is done and over. " Mrs. D

Hi Mrs. D---The Harry and Ginny pairing is described with very ambiguous words and clues in Book Six. I'm not sure that relationship is going to have a carte blanche positive outcome in Book Seven.

I also laughed at the "fug" typo. Maybe Cornelius Fudge got splinched.

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Puck - Jul 20, 2005 5:51 am (#182 of 473)
Okay, so I want to know how Ron knows about Draco having the hand of glory. I mean, in CoS Harry see Malfoy eyeing it, and his Dad denying it to him. Harry might have told Ron that Draco was interested, but the suddenly seem sure he has it, even before the see him coming out of the room of requirement.

The other, how did Draco know how to get into the Room? I thought Harry went and opened the room, and the others just showed up, I never remember Marietta and all being told how to get in, but just to go to that corridor at a particular time.

I hate to say it, but I now have to give Draco more credit than I had previously. People seem impressed by Snape's talent in this book, but this did not surprise me. I am impressed by Malfoy. He pulled off occumency, the coin charm that is a NEWT level, and put someone under the Imperius curse. Plus, on his own he figured out about the cabinets and managed to fix them. Honestly, I never thought he had it in him.

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Vaughn - Jul 20, 2005 6:00 am (#183 of 473)
Puck, I was also wondering about Draco and the hand of glory...it totally sounds like Ron new that he had it...strange.

I noticed the fug and thought it was a typo too...Hollywand, "Fudge got splinched" I had to laugh at that.

I felt really empty after finishing this book and I think it was because we missed so many of the little things like the Halloween feast and classroom scenes. I also think a big part of the unresolved feeling is due to not having DD's explanation scene that we are so used to at the end. I am really looking forward to my second read after my wife finishes. Right now I still think POA is my favorite.

~Alias

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Herm oh ninny - Jul 20, 2005 6:08 am (#184 of 473)
Amelia: the HPB storyline fits into COS because of Riddle's diary. It was the first Horcrux, and our first clue to the fact that Voldemort has split up his soul.

Mrs. D: I am sure it will be Harry/Ginny in the end. From the moment that Ron told Ginny to make a better choice in boyfriends, while eyeing Harry, I knew that was what Jo was planning.

I also found about 3 or 4 typos in the US editions.

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pottermom34 - Jul 20, 2005 6:27 am (#185 of 473)
Edited Jul 20, 2005 8:16 am
I agree with many others, excellent book, I was blown away.

Edit: I've just thought of something interesting. We learned that Harry, Voldy and Snape have something in common, they're half bloods. But there was a difference between Harry's blood other than his mothers protection. Voldy's and Snapes mothers were the pure bloods and their fathers were muggles. It was the opposite for Harry. His mother was the muggle and his father was the pure blood. I wonder if this is of any significance?

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Thom Matheson - Jul 20, 2005 7:32 am (#186 of 473)
I didn't know where to post this. Please feel free to edit and move. OK, try this out as an overall observation. Was Draco the only one using the stolen Polyjuice Potion? If that is the case was that really Snape up on the tower? Was it really Draco? Then go one step further.....Could DD's tomb hold a Horcrux?

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May Crook - Jul 20, 2005 7:57 am (#187 of 473)
Speaking about the Harry Ginny thing. I don't think Harry can stay away even if he tries, his reason is to keep her out of danger (because he loves her), and Ginny seemed to take the news well. Remember Malfoy left the grounds before Harry decided to try to call it off. so any info he brings to LV would be that they are together. My imagination tells me that Harry may find that to keep Ginny safe will be to keep her close. Plus she is a very determined Weasley I can't see her letting him get away.

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Alex Thorpe - Jul 20, 2005 8:00 am (#188 of 473)
Quite. I can't imagine that Harry no longer has feelings for Ginny, and a good Lelligimens would pick those feelings up whether Harry's going out with her or not!

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May Crook - Jul 20, 2005 8:26 am (#189 of 473)
The thought of polyjuice potion has crossed my mind to but the fact that Snape was alone with Harry several times gives me cause to wonder, it is strange that Pettigrew was with Snape in the beginning so possession has also crossed my mind, also the duel with H/S Harry is not that weak of a wizard or Snape is not that strong, and the last thing is It was decided earlier in the book that the HBP was not in the same year with Lily and James. From year one I have not been able to decide if Snape Was good or bad and I still can't decide. He could have been playing both cards all along to see who would win in the end. So the end of HBP has sill left me in confusion over Snape. I guess I'll find out in Book 7.

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scoop2172000 - Jul 20, 2005 8:27 am (#190 of 473)
I wonder if Voldemort's wand is a horcrux. Certainly, he had it with him when he sought to murder Harry (and in murdering Harry, create a new horcrux.)

Someone (Pettigrew? Snape?) retrieved the wand. Somewhere along the line, Voldemort was re-united with this wand and obtained a very rudimentary body pending his full resurrection to physical form.

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Finn BV - Jul 20, 2005 8:55 am (#191 of 473)
We were talking about fug on the Chat and Greeting Thread here. It is indeed a typo for "fog."

Choices, on the Snape Victorious thread, you mentioned that you hoped Snape would come back as Potions master. I sincerely doubt that anything of that sort will happen, as he can't pull another "I'm sorry that that happened" thing like he did with Dumbledore when James and Lily died. There is no forgiveness for Snape now, until he releases his full story in the last book. I'm sorry, but Hogwarts is going to be without Snape, should there even be a Hogwarts next year!

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Kristin D - Jul 20, 2005 9:30 am (#192 of 473)
I've long had a problem with the whole "Harry as half-blood" comparison.

BOTH his mother and father were magical but his mother was like Hermione. I'd only consider Harry "half" blood if one of his parents (like Voldemort's) was non-magical.

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Choices - Jul 20, 2005 9:31 am (#193 of 473)
Actually I didn't say I hope he would come back - at least I didn't think I did - what I meant to say was it would maybe be possible for him to come back to the Potion's Master position if indeed the DADA position is jinxed and he can only do one year as DADA teacher. Given what happens at the end of the book though, his coming back is very questionable at the moment.

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loony - Jul 20, 2005 10:00 am (#194 of 473)
I finished the book few days ago and I was SO said, I just kept repeating it´s "only" a book. Wonder how I´ll feel after 7th book is over .

I liked HBP, above all because all those things that probably aren´t the way hey seem (Snape, Draco...) and there is so much love, I also liked that Harry is acting a bit more grown up then in OotP. I just MISSED Lupin, Nevill, Luna and the whole DA thing. I hope we´ll see more of them and maybe even Percy . I think now that DD "is gone" there will be a new reason for DA to become active.

Just my two knuts.

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Loopy Lupin - Jul 20, 2005 10:27 am (#195 of 473)
Hi Mrs. D---The Harry and Ginny pairing is described with very ambiguous words and clues in Book Six. I'm not sure that relationship is going to have a carte blanche positive outcome in Book Seven. -- Hollywand

I'm afraid I don't follow you at all. I don't think there was anything ambiguous about Harry's feelings for Ginny or hers for him. Whether the relationship (or either of them) survives in Book 7 is another matter altogether.

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Madame Pomfrey - Jul 20, 2005 11:37 am (#196 of 473)
So..what was the thing that Harry discovered in CoS that foreshadowed HBP? I haven't read book 2 in awhile so I'm a bit rusty.

As for the Harry/Ginny ship,I absolutely loved it.Their first kiss was great.I could hear Faith Hill's "This kiss,This kiss.. "playing in the background.

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Herm oh ninny - Jul 20, 2005 11:39 am (#197 of 473)
The thing that Harry discovered in COS was Riddle's diary...aka the first Horcrux.

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Madame Pomfrey - Jul 20, 2005 11:45 am (#198 of 473)
Thanks Herm oh ninny. I thought it might be that but wasn't too sure.

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Wendelin the Weird - Jul 20, 2005 12:06 pm (#199 of 473)
Herm Oh Ninny said: "the HPB storyline fits into COS because of Riddle's diary. It was the first Horcrux, and our first clue to the fact that Voldemort has split up his soul."

I think the confusion about how this fits into CoS isnt because of the diary being a horcrux-- it has to do with learning about the Half-Blood Prince. Remember it was actually the working title for CoS until Jo cut this storyline out realizing it would fit better in book 6. I'm just wondering how we would have learned about Snape's past in CoS and how it would have changed the series overall had we already known what he had been like as a youth. It certainly would have made him appear more suspicious...

But definitely agree that the thing Harry discovered was the diary. I had my bets on it being Aragog! Rats! Oh well, at least I was right that Aragog would die and his children start getting restless. The acromantulas choosing side part of my prediction may still pan out in book 7 then.

As for what you guys noticed about the fathers, Jo said in an interview that the reason all of her evil characters seem to have bad parenting from the fathers is that she sees the role of the father as so important in teaching a child to make good choices. In LV we see the father completely deny his son any attention, wheras Lucius poisons his son with his greed, arrogance, and racism. Snape was victim of a different kind of bad fathering-- physical abuse, but note that in his case it seems the abuse was against his mother. Perhaps this could influence him to be protective of women (like Narcissa for instance). We also have DD mentioning the bad fathering Dudley is getting, and how lucky they were that Harry turned out well despite the abuse.

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tpris27 - Jul 20, 2005 4:14 pm (#200 of 473)
I'm thinking that Harry will go back to Privet Drive to collect whatever belongings he'll need (maybe DD left something there for him to find) and warn the Dursleys that they should leave because the enchantment protecting the house will be gone and they might not want to be there just in case some DE's or Dementors come looking for Harry. And now that he's got Sirius' fortune, he might help them to find other digs..Why? Petunia is still his mother's sister - she stood up to Vernon in OotP to let Harry stay until the Advanced Guard came and got him. Then I'm guessing that Harry will go to 12 GP and get as many members of the Order and the DA together (they'll put some kind of enchantment over the house to keep away the baddies) and Harry will get some training in order to get stronger so he can face Voldemort. Remember that every spell he threw at Snape was easily deflected - it could have been that he was overcome with grief at the loss of DD and that's why his hexes were weak. Then he might go to DD's old office and have a go at the Pensive - there might be some clue left from DD for Harry to find.

Who knows what will happen? All of this is speculation anyway, but it's fun to imagine! I guess we'll all have to wait unitl book 7 (May it be the size of a Hogwart's trunk!) to find out!

[Julia H.]

Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince Book Read Along (Chapter by Chapter Discussions Folder - General Discussion - Posts 201-250)

Puck - Jul 20, 2005 4:54 pm (#201 of 473)
I think the vanishing cabinet was another important thing in CoS. Harry hid there from the Malfoy's when they came into the shop. He also saw the necklace and the hand of Glory. Remember, JKR didn't want that seen left out of the movie.

Does anyone else think the change in the weather is significant? In the beginning the miserable weather is explained as an effect of the demenotrs breeding. By the end of the book there is warm, clear, summery weather. So, they are no longer breeding, I guess, but what are they doing?

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Wendelin the Weird - Jul 20, 2005 5:30 pm (#202 of 473)
Hmm interesting about the weather. Was that simply a writers device that says things all all going to be okay. Remember she tends to denote bad times with storms, heavy rain, etc.. but now DD is dead and all is well. For some reason this all needed to happen, and Harry is on the right track.

I have a suspicion that all of the love people were feeling for DD is what caused the weather to break and for the dementors to leave. There really was a lot of love going on in this book... and right there at the end is a perfect example of it! Filch/Pince; Harry/Ginny; Ron/Hermione; Fleur/Bill; Tonks/Lupin; Grawpie/Hagrid (yeah, different kind of love hee hee). I wonder if Luna and Neville together again in this scene is a hint that maybe something more than friendship might blossom between them too.

JKR has just revealed that definitely Draco could not kill DD and he knew it. When he lowered his wand that was it. We also get heavy hints about RAB.

[Part 2 of the Mugglenet interview is up and its very enlightening!!]

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Madame Pomfrey - Jul 20, 2005 6:51 pm (#203 of 473)
I find the weather a clue.There is an old saying..It always rains when a good man dies. Well, it was certainly a beautiful day and Dumbledore is a good man so I think he lives.

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Madam Pince - Jul 20, 2005 7:14 pm (#204 of 473)
Everyone, even Filch and Madame Pince (book Pince, not forumer Pince :-)), -- Amilia

Thanks for making that very important distinction, Mills! (Ewwwww-yuckkkkk.....I'm supposed to be in love with Filch???)

Well, let's see...I've finished reading and have been processing stuff for a couple days. Wendelin, (welcome back, by the way) you and I are of a like mind in most areas, it seems -- reading your posts is almost like reading my own mind. General observations:

Did anyone else get the feeling that sometimes she was reading off a list of our questions and answering them as she wrote? ? Marie E. (& Loopy Lupin) Oh my gosh, yes! It truly felt like that! About halfway through, I was saying "Gee whiz, she sounds like she's answering a reporter or something."

Too funny, Denise, that we were both dismissing the list of chapter titles which turned out to be the accurate one after all! That other list truly was good, though, wasn't it?

It was very information driven and there just wasn't as much of the... extras I suppose... that we have gotten used to. I have to say that was the most disappointing thing to me.

virgoddess1313 ---- Ditto for me! (although I loved getting the information, too!)

I didn't really care for the editing much in this book. It felt too tight, as if they were trying to rush things. (Although action-wise, it did sort of drag until the last six chapters.) And it was such a quick turn-around from the Harry of OoP, which should've been only a few weeks' difference in time. I don't remember reading even once "Harry felt as if...." because it was all "Harry asked..." Quite a different young man from the one we last saw -- wayyyy more mature. Last book I was annoyed that he was too emotional, and this time I felt he was too robotic. Hmmmm, guess I'm hard to please.

It was nice to see some humor back in the books, after the gloom of OoP. Lots of funny lines in this one!

Although I don't go in for predicting 'ships much (ever, actually,) I did feel that it was clear that Ron and Hermione would be a couple, and that Harry and Ginny belonged together. Now, given that I've said that, I do feel that the whole Harry/Ginny thing was pretty rushed in HBP. I mean, where did this "monster-in-the-chest" come from? They didn't even share a deep meaningful glance or brush against each other or anything! I didn't predict Tonks / Lupin -- again, I think it sort of came out of the blue. I was afraid Tonks was being Imperio'ed. I did sort of wonder when Molly mentioned Tonks when Lupin was there, and mentioned Lupin when Tonks was there, but didn't take it too seriously. Silly me.

I was surprised there wasn't more emotion shown from Harry about Sirius' death, and I was surprised that Lily and James weren't prominent in this book -- I would've sworn that JKR promised us that in this book. Maybe she said in future books or something.

I had thought the Hand of Glory would show up again somehow, so I was glad to see that. And I never did feel like the whole "memory" explanation of Tom Riddle in the diary in CoS felt right -- I couldn't understand how a "memory" could interact with Harry, etc., because the memories in a Pensieve didn't. But I could never have predicted what that "memory" actually was, so it was nice to have that explained.

I still don't know what "...in essence divided" means, although I have the uneasy feeling that I'm supposed to know after having read HBP. Guess I need to give it more thought (or read more posts!)

I think Rowling really led us off on a major Red Herring with her remarks about "Chapter One, Book Six, thirteen years in the making". Same with the "squib who does magic". Of course we couldn't figure out a character that had not been introduced yet. -- Hollywand

Agree again. That was a nice enough chapter I guess, but if that was thirteen years in the making, then I'm a bit disappointed. If anything, it made me nervous because I was afraid she was going to start dragging the Muggle world into the story. I don't want to read about Muggles; I read Harry to get away from reading about Muggles! So I was relieved that didn't enter into it much. Hollywand, are you referring to Merope as being the "squib who does magic later in life?" I got the impression that her father was just calling her a squib to torment her and call her names, not that she really was one. Dumbledore said she was a witch who just didn't perform well in front of her father because he made her nervous, or something to that effect. Or were you referring to someone else? I don't remember anyone doing unexpected magic....

Mills, I'm so glad you didn't cry! I didn't either, and after reading posts here I was beginning to feel like I must have the emotional range of a teaspoon. I guess it's because I was expecting Dumbledore to be gone, so it wasn't as much of a shock.

Total shock, though, that "HBP" was Snape! To think that a couple of us were actually making fun of that idea on the 15th! Sneaky trick of JKR's -- making "Prince" be a last name rather than a title.

I think Dumbledore's dead. She left us lots of loopholes, but they feel like red herrings to me, just to keep us busy for the next two years. I believe he's dead, and Snape killed him. But I don't think Snape is evil -- I think he was following Dumbledore's orders as per the discussion between them that Hagrid overheard. The look of hatred on his face, if it was in fact directed at Dumbledore, is because Dumbledore is now placing Snape in a distinctly precarious position -- the whole non-evil Wizarding World hates him. (Not that they were in love with him before, but still...) Poor guy. He'll never win a popularity contest, will he? I still hold out that he'll repay his life-debt to James by saving Harry's neck and sacrificing himself to Voldemort, thus posthumously winning his Order of Merlin First Class.

No idea what the other Horcrux is, although the Sorting Hat springs to mind. Riddle might've thought it a very safe place since the Hogwarts staff would likely regard the Hat as very precious because of the role it fills.

I would be surprised if Harry doesn't finish his seventh year, although the end of HBP surely implies that. Why would JKR write a seven-book series, and make her wizarding school consist of seven years, unless he was going to be a student in all seven? She could've just made it a six-year school, with Harry continuing the fight with Voldemort as a post-graduation "spring fling" or something.

My question is: Why did Snape leave that book behind? He's a very organized man - when he changed jobs he would have taken his things with him - so I don't believe it was an accident. ? Rod Beecham

Rod, that bothered me too. Surely he wouldn't have forgotten it. Yet if it was intentional, how could he be sure Harry would be the student to get the book? Could've easily been Ron. I have to work on this one some more.

OK, this post is getting way too long, and it was just supposed to be general impressions. So there's mine -- for the first read-through anyway!

Loved it -- still like GoF better, though!

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Wendelin the Weird - Jul 20, 2005 7:36 pm (#205 of 473)
Edited Jul 20, 2005 9:38 pm
Great to see you and wonderful to be back Madam Pince! Although I am sorry to hear that you got matched up with Filchy. Hey, we never once heard about Mrs. Norris in this book... kinda spooky. I'm honored that we are sharing a brain on many topics though. We must be onto something, eh? Even if they are Jo's red herrings, she won't deny much of what we are theorizing.

I still don't know what "...in essence divided" means, although I have the uneasy feeling that I'm supposed to know after having read HBP. Guess I need to give it more thought (or read more posts!)

My impression on this from what we learned about horcruxes and Nagini is that DD was trying to learn if LV and Nagini were one soul or two shards. I think he was determining at that moment that LV was acting through Nagini because she was one of his horcruxes.

Something that just came to mind when you were speaking about Harry's 7 years at Hogwarts is that Tom asks if 7 horcruxes would be even more powerful because its a magic number. So, is there some symbolism in there being 7 years for a wizard to get a Hogwarts degree? Harry, in his 7th year will have to destroy LV and his 7 horcruxes... its odd isnt it. Maybe Ive been online too long today though. hee heheeheeeheheee *maniacal laughter*

EDIT: On an extra note, I was just reading Emerson of Mugglenet's report on interviewing JKR and she gifted him and the girl from Leaky Cauldron before she left. She gave him a golden friendship cup, and her a Slytherin ring. Does this sound to anyone like some horcruxes in the book?! She did say in another interview that "Ravenclaws would have their day" and I believe the cup was a Ravenclaw artifact, wasnt it? Ill have to check to be sure. And the ring was a Slytherin ring, although a note said "This gift doesnt mean that you belong in Slytherin". I think they are possible clues...

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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 20, 2005 9:22 pm (#206 of 473)
Madam Pince wrote: Now, given that I've said that, I do feel that the whole Harry/Ginny thing was pretty rushed in HBP. I mean, where did this "monster-in-the-chest" come from?

Actually, I think it was fairly well done. We get several clues before the monster in his chest ever appears. Remember, they spent a lot of time together at the Burrow and we were not privy to most of it. JKR summarizes the "few weeks" between when their O.W.L.s arrive and when they go to Diagon alley in a paragraph. Ginny became almost the 4th member of their trio for the summer, playing Quidditch with them and hanging out. Harry gets slightly upset on the Hogwort's express when she goes to find compartment with Dean. He keeps telling himself that he just got used to having her around and that he is just has brotherly feelings for her, but he is lying to himself. We learn this for a fact when he smells the Amorentia. A person who smells Amorentia smells what attracts them. Harry smells Ginny. Well he smells "something flowery he thought he might have smelled at the Burrow." At the end of that chapter, "he caught a sudden waft of that flowery smell he had picked up in Slughorn's dungeon." When he turned around it was Ginny. So Ginny is one of the 3 things that attracts him. These two events, coupled with a few glances at her when there was no reason to look her way, all took place before the monster ever reared his head. The monster came about when Harry saw Dean kissing her, and got jealous (the green-eyed monster). Jealousy is an emotion we can feel without knowing we care for a person in that way and can often be an indication of such among friends. So I think it was done fairly well, although subtly. If you missed those signs, look for them on a re-read sometime.

I still don't know what "...in essence divided" means, although I have the uneasy feeling that I'm supposed to know after having read HBP.

Well, we don't know for sure what it means. There has been some speculation. I agree that it has to do with Nagini being a Horcrux as Wendelin says above. At this point, Dumbledore already suspected multiple Horcruxes, he just didn't know how many. When Voldemort possessed Nagini, he put the portion of his soul that is normally in his body into Nagini. Nagini, as a Horcrux, already had a portion of Voldemort's soul. So there were two portions of Voldemort's soul in Nagini. They were "in essence divided" because they had been irrevocably split when Voldemort created the Horcrux. At least that is what I think, and the only speculation on the subject I have seen agrees.

-TWW

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Amilia Smith - Jul 20, 2005 9:27 pm (#207 of 473)
Herm oh ninny: . . . the HPB storyline fits into COS because of Riddle's diary. It was the first Horcrux, and our first clue to the fact that Voldemort has split up his soul.

Thank you for attempting to answer my question, but Wendelin is right about the source of my confusion. While I agree that the plot of HBP fits with CoS because of the diary and the horcruxes, I am wondering how the Half-Blood Prince storyline (secondhand Potions book with instructions that turn Harry into an instant Potions genius) would have worked if Snape were still teaching the subject.

Am I making any sense? Does anyone have any ideas?

Mills.

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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 20, 2005 9:35 pm (#208 of 473)
Amilia Smith- I think the simple answer is that it did not fit, That was why she had to take it out. JKR said she felt she was telling two stories that did not go together in the original draft of CoS (with the HBP story line). The HBP story line did nothing to further the CoS story line. I do think this means that the HBP story line is important information that we need to know for the resolution of the series. It worked better in Book 6, but it was still not germane to the plot. So I can think the only reason JKR tried so hard to get it into the books is because it is important for the overall story line. How is it important? I have no idea.

-TWW

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Saralinda Again - Jul 20, 2005 9:44 pm (#209 of 473)
What are the chances that Snape himself arranged for Harry to have that potions text? It could even have been half loyalty, "Harry needs to know this for what lies ahead," and half ego, like "Oh, dear, with that loser in charge how will he ever learn the potions? Well, this way I can still teach him the right way."

In that case, his demanding to see the book could have been some sort of Snape-ly power play to lord it over James's son without actually doing him damage.

Prisoner of Rowling - Jul 21, 2005 12:42 am (#210 of 473) [/b]
As this is the general discussion thread, I thought i'd voice all the little tit-bits that I feel need saying (although many not very important).

1. Harry has inherited all of Sirius's possesions - Where's the motorbike? Were we not promised its return at some point? Have to wait for book 7 now.

2. I feel i'm missing something about Rufus Scrimgeour - mainly due to his lionesque features - I feel a gryffindor connection coming on.

3. Is Prof. Slughorns liking of Lily all it seems? I get the feeling there is some deeper connection than what was shown in HBP. Had it just been that he had given Voldermort the information on Horcruxes, then I think we would have seen a greater regret towards the deaths of James AND Lily. However the book showed us nothing but Slughorn/Lily relationship. DD obviously believed that Harry had influence over Slughorn due to the fact that it was Harry that persuaded Slughorn to return to Hogwarts and 'only Harry' (according to Hermione) that could retrieve the true memory.

4. Finally, very lighthearted, but I am sure a thread will be put in place eventually, for who should be cast as charachters in future films.

As I have said a number of times, I think Jennifer Saunders is the perfect Prof. Umbridge. Of the new characters and from what we have seen of older charachters behaviour in HBP:

Prof Slughorn - Ricky Tomlinson, Mundungus - Ade Edmondson, Morfin Gaunt - Robert Lindsay, and i had thought of loads more but they've all slipped my mind right now.........

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siliconsmiley - Jul 21, 2005 5:16 am (#211 of 473)
Edited by Jul 21, 2005 6:45 am

Wendelin the Weird - Nice comments about family. Very insightful.

tpris27 - Nice point about Privet Dr. I hope Harry does indeed do something to help protect the Dursleys.

I have to disagree about Harry 'training' in book 7. When Harry told Ron and Hermione about his lessons with Dumbledore, they both thought he was going to learn some advanced magic. But he did not. Dumbledore gave him the greatest weapon, knowledge. He has said repeatedly that Harry's greatest weapon against Voldemort is love. As mentioned, there is a lot of love going around. Finally, Snape tells Harry to keep his mouth and his mind shut, not get some better jinxes. I think he may continue to work on his Occlumency and nonverbal casting, but I don't think he's going to have a lot of time for training.


********

BIG BIG BIG news from the Mugglenet interview!!!!! Here's a quote from JKR:

"You know, that was the last Quidditch match. I knew as I wrote it that it was the last time I was going to be doing a Quidditch match."

Sounds like a pretty big hint that Harry will definitely not be back at Hogwarts. I can't imagine him being there and not playing Quidditch.

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Sadie - Jul 21, 2005 5:48 am (#212 of 473)
This might have been discussed but I can't find it. During Slughorn's party, when Draco crashes it. Snape is described as looking angry and a bit frightened with Draco. Why would he be frightened? Because if Draco didn't suceed in killing Dumbledore he knew he would have to do it?

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septentrion - Jul 21, 2005 6:13 am (#213 of 473)
Or he fears Draco might do something rash, or got caught doing something rash like say...poisoning a bottle ? He swore to protect Draco, if he's caught, Snape will have to take action and he may not much want it.

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Loopy Lupin - Jul 21, 2005 7:21 am (#214 of 473)
Sounds like a pretty big hint that Harry will definitely not be back at Hogwarts. I can't imagine him being there and not playing Quidditch. --siliconsmiley

Well, he didn't play Quidditch at Hogwarts during GoF. I took that statement to be more of a hint that JKR will not be writing anymore Quidditch sequences.

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Mrs. D. - Jul 21, 2005 7:41 am (#215 of 473)
After reading JKR's interview and knowing how the ships will definitely turn out, (I had truly hoped before it was all just a diversion) I came to realize why I was so upset about it all. I know the final answer in the battle between Harry and LV will come down to love and it will not involve the people I thought it would in the way I have been building it for years.

A ship seems like a very small thing to many, but when seen in context of how it will very likely be the answer to winning in the end it is no longer small. I cannot overlook it and enjoy the whole story as I had before. I know those who love the H/G thing probably cannot understand how devastating it is. To know my ending is forever squashed is heartbreaking for me.

I think many will feel let down when it is all over not because JKR won't do a fabulous job, but rather because each of us has had ideas all along of how it would work out. It is just for me and maybe a few others, it has come early. I am quite depressed over the fact that she left no room for me to continue to hope as I had. There are no words to explain the loss felt and to feel laughed at over it, is even worse.

I will continue to read but there is a huge hole where my beautiful ending was and I will make do with whatever she has in store, but I would love to find a thread to talk with others who feel like I do. Afterall, something I cared very much about has died.

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Alex Thorpe - Jul 21, 2005 7:58 am (#216 of 473)
You were a H/H shipper then? I kinda agree with JKR - it never *looked* like happening!

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Choices - Jul 21, 2005 9:11 am (#217 of 473)
I found it interesting that Slughorn apparently "collected" Lily, but didn't "collect" James and Sirius in the same way. Was Lily actually brighter or more ambitious than James? We were certainly told how clever and smart James and Sirius were, but Slughorn seemed to think more of Lily for some reason.

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siliconsmiley - Jul 21, 2005 9:26 am (#218 of 473)
Very true Loopy Lupin. I would still tend to think that Harry's going to have a little too much on his plate, but what would book 7 be without Hogwarts?

Interesting point Choices. We've also had lots of praise heaped on James in the first five books. It might also help to create the "good Slytherin" aspect of Sluggie. It shows that he was interested in anyone that was talented or influential, regardless of their bloodline.

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Puck - Jul 21, 2005 9:34 am (#219 of 473)
About the weather, it started to clear before DD passed on, but it was after the fighting had stopped among our main characters. Maybe the love thing is keeping dementors away. I was, though, seening it as a calm before the storm. They have stopped breeding and are gathering elsewhere before they attack large scale.

Perhaps Lily was brighter at potions, and this is what SLughorn saw. I mean, if Harry wasn't famous, Hermione's potential would be way more obvious than his or Ron's.

Here's what I found interesting, for the first time since the first chapter in book one, we see things that Harry doesn't. The meeting of the ministers, Spinner's end. I was a definate change in format. I find it interesting.

About Snape being angry/fearful when Draco is caught... you notice that DD know Harry is right about Draco, but act like they are brushing him off. If it got out that Malfoy was a DE, he would obviously need to be instantly expelled. DD and Snape know this puts him and his family into danger, plus Snape will have to either kill DD or die himself.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 21, 2005 9:35 am (#220 of 473)
The interesting thing about Lily in this book is the constant reference to Lily being an excellent brewer of potions because heretofore all that readers have been told is Lilly was excellent with charms. The question this raises in my mind is that will Lily's ability to brew potions and cast charms play a pivotal role in book 7.

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Cassiopeia - Jul 21, 2005 9:38 am (#221 of 473)
Mrs. D: To know my ending is forever squashed is heartbreaking for me.

I understand what you are saying...I have actually always been a H/G shipper, but I did have the thought right before 7/16 that I would be very disappointed if I was wrong! When I saw the way things were going, I was so excited because for one thing, I actually got something right (doesn't happen all that often!!) and also because I knew that I wouldn't be disappointed. So know that I do understand!

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Vaughn - Jul 21, 2005 11:49 am (#222 of 473)
This is just a random question. How did James discover the levicorpus (sp...I don't have my book) spell if Snape invented it?

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Foundation Layer - Jul 21, 2005 11:53 am (#223 of 473)
Edited by Catherine Jul 21, 2005 4:16 pm
It has to be said that the HBP didn't hold any major revelations for me except for the last few chapters. I knew who was going to die, but I didn't know: who (did it), where or why (actually I'm still pondering that last one, why!)

One would imagine that Snape used it on James at some point. If you remember the conversation with Sirius and Lupin: Snape was always trying to jinx or hex James, you couldn't expect him to take that lying down, or something along those lines anyway.

Edit - sanpe? Who the heck is sanpe, spelling corrected Snape!

I changed a word to make this post more family-friendly.--Catherine

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Herm oh ninny - Jul 21, 2005 11:57 am (#224 of 473)
I'm not trying to be mean or anything, but I just don't get where the H/H shippers are coming from. Jo has never written anything that ever led me to believe that H/H would get together. From POA and on it was obvious, even to Harry, that Ron and Hermione "fancied"(hehe I love that word) each other. Not that I don't understand your disappointment, however. I have always been a H/G shipper through and through and if Jo had said that they weren't going to be together in book seven I would be very upset as well.

EDIT: I also find it very cute that H/G look like his parents. (Harry looks like James and Ginny and Lily both had red hair)

Also cute that Ron is just like his dad and Hermione is like Mrs. Weasley.

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Foundation Layer - Jul 21, 2005 12:48 pm (#225 of 473)
Sometimes I can see Voldy's point of view, all this talk of love is making me feel ill.

I wonder whether Voldermort will actually be destroyed in a clash of spells. While harry has fought with him twice the first time he only just got away with his life and the second time DD saved him. I cannot see harry winning a straight battle. Love has got to have some important twist on this fight.

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Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 21, 2005 2:13 pm (#226 of 473)
I agree Herm oh ninny. I was shocked when I got onto Leaky and started reading the reaction to the H/H ship. I think it must be scary sometimes for JKR. People can really take things too far.

Foundation Layer I think it will have to come down to what is inside of Harry. DD has given him valuable knowledge. He will have to learn how to defeat Voldy with that instead of a mano-y-mano battle. Love will save the day! LPO

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Finn BV - Jul 21, 2005 2:30 pm (#227 of 473)
Sounds like a pretty big hint that Harry will definitely not be back at Hogwarts. I can't imagine him being there and not playing Quidditch. --siliconsmiley

True, but it could also be that the war is waging so hard that there won't be time to squeeze in Quidditch. As Loopy said, if three days a year in GoF could cancel Quidditch, I'm sure such an event as a war would stop it too!

Also, back in my post #191 I have the wrong link to Choices' post in the Snape Victorious thread. It is accidentally a link to her profile. This is the correct link. If one of the mods wants to fix it, a large load would be lifted off my shoulders.

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Madam Pince - Jul 21, 2005 2:58 pm (#228 of 473)
...if three days a year in GoF could cancel Quidditch, I'm sure such an event as a war would stop it too!

Absolutely! A good example would be the Olympics during World War II. Shame, though.

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Wendelin the Weird - Jul 21, 2005 3:23 pm (#229 of 473)
The interesting thing about Lily in this book is the constant reference to Lily being an excellent brewer of potions because heretofore all that readers have been told is Lilly was excellent with charms. The question this raises in my mind is that will Lily's ability to brew potions and cast charms play a pivotal role in book 7.

Well, we always knew that she was a clever witch overall, but her wand was for charms. We wouldn't have heard about her potions because well, you dont exactly use a wand for that, eh? Its possible that there is a reason that Jo is focusing again on Lily in this book when up til now we had been learning mainly about James, yet I sense that mostly it was because

1) Slughorn was her potions professor and that is likely how he would have stumbled across her talent; 2) Mentioning Lily in regards to potions in a way made Harry wonder if someone in her and James' age group could have been the half-blood prince; 3) Its possible that it could have been a clue that maybe Snape and Lily could have been friends in some manner, although thats a stretch. It seems to me that if the third scenario is true, then it could be the reason why she didnt "have to die".

Another note on Lily being the key to Harry convincing Slughorn to come to Hogwarts: Notice how Slughorn wanted the 'full set' with Sirius and Regulus as Slytherins? It seems like the same thing in a sense here. Who do we know that likes to collect things? *cough* Not saying that Slughorn *is* LV by any means, but there is something suspicious about all of this. LV loves to collect things from his victims and suddenly we have a professor who also likes to collect things. Harry has to be the one to convince him to come to the school-- he also has to be the one to get the important memory from him that is the key to defeating LV. How does this fit? It seems like DD is guiding Harry through necessary steps all through the book and I don't think its coincidence that Harry is asked to get the ball rolling. This is his mission to defeat LV and maybe he has to do these things to set it all up for himself... Dunno, but I keep coming back to there being something weird Im missing about the significance of Slughorn returning and Snape moving to DADA because Harry asked him to return by DDs request.

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Rod Beecham - Jul 21, 2005 3:25 pm (#230 of 473)
Maybe you might use your wand to stir the potion if you couldn't find a spoon?

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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 21, 2005 3:26 pm (#231 of 473)
Mrs. D wrote: There are no words to explain the loss felt and to feel laughed at over it, is even worse.

I know I questioned you over your feelings on this subject. I hope you did not think I was one of those laughing at you. I never meant to laugh at you. I admit I don't understand your feelings, but I don't find them funny. So if you thought I was one of the ones laughing at you, I most sincerely apologize. If it makes you feel any better, the vast majority of our guesses for how the series will end won't come true, so you are not alone in that regard. Further, you may be more right than you think. Harry does love Hermione. He might not love her in a romantic way, but he does love her as much as anyone in the world. Whatever Harry's power of love is, it is not fueled by romantic love. It is his love for his friends and surrogate family that really fuels his power. So I think Harry's love of Hermione has as much a role to play as his romantic feelings for Ginny, probably even more of a role. Try not to be disappointed in the ending before you get a chance to read it; otherwise, you will be disappointed because you expect to be,a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Choices wrote: I found it interesting that Slughorn apparently "collected" Lily, but didn't "collect" James and Sirius in the same way.

We don't know that he didn't try. James and Sirius were very against authority. They were very arrogant. They also very much disliked Slytherin. Slughorn tried to collect Harry and couldn't. I think James and Sirius would have been even harder to collect. Harry needed something form Slughorn. James and Sirius didn't and they probably felt there careers would be just fine without his help.

-TWW

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Wendelin the Weird - Jul 21, 2005 3:43 pm (#232 of 473)
Does anyone know about how we get a new thread created in this area? I'd really like to have a discussion about Rufus Scrimgeour. He is very suspicious if you consider that he was "asking funny questions" to the Order Aurors in book 5, then when Umbridge knows that Harry wants to become and Auror, Amelia Bones (who incidentally helped influence the Wizengamot of Harry's innocence in bk 5) turns up dead. She was apparantly 'next in line' to be Minister, but since she died, Scrimgeour got it.

Then you consider that he is trying to get Harry to back up the Ministry, and that he is holding innocent people in Azkaban while it appears that no DEs are being captured. There is something fishy about him considering all of this. IF (and this is a big IF) he was somehow connected with Lucius and the DEs, he could have known about Sirius's escapades and escape from capture. We are aware that Wormtail knows of Sirius's animagus form and has returned to LV's service pawning as much info as he can get, I am sure. Draco is seemingly aware that it was Sirius on the platform in book 5. Scrimgeour is asking funny questions to Shacklebolt or Tonks around the same time... then later a rumor of Sirius being suspected to be living in London.

The fact that Scrimgeour shows up at the Weasleys on Christmas night with Percy seems curious to me, as does the talk with him after DDs funeral. We never really get a full answer as to why DD dislikes him other than that he wants Harry to sort of be their spokesman saying they're doing a good job.

Something is just... fishy there.

Anyway, if anyone knows how to get a thread started, I'd love a Rufus Scrimgeour thread. ^_^

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Rod Beecham - Jul 21, 2005 3:58 pm (#233 of 473)
Wendelin the Weird, I think your idea of Scrimgeour being significant is interesting, but I take him to be another example of JKR's detestation of bureaucrats (which I share, although I'm a bureaucrat myself). The verbal echo of his name is "Ruthless Scrounger", which I take to mean that he's someone who'll go to unscrupulous lengths to preserve the image and reputation of the Ministry of Magic - a bureaucratic response to difficult times. Cornelius Fudge (no explanation of this name needed, I think!) was a time-server.

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Wendelin the Weird - Jul 21, 2005 4:09 pm (#234 of 473)
True, it could be coincidence. She did reveal that we would see more Umbridge in book 7 in her Mugglenet interview also. Just trying to examine the book from all possible angles. Thanks for bearing with me.

I also just had this odd little revelation. ^_^

This came to me while posting in the CH 2 thread, but I couldnt fully discuss its possible significance there due to spoilers.

Jo gifted us at Christmas with 3 Chapter titles. Now, take a look at them in connection to what we have been wondering about with the Unbreakable vow and the fate of the half-blood prince and Draco. "Spinner's END" and "Draco's DETOUR" Is this an "anvil" of what is to come in book 7 regarding this connection between Snape and Draco? Or is it a coincidence that these were two of the names she gave us behind the locked door?

Since Snape is the one "spinning" lies for both the Order/LV, and he also killed DD (or whatever you may believe here) he is still in danger. If he had not tried to save Draco from failing his mission by completing the task for him, he would have supposedly died by not fulfilling his vow. However, Draco isn't off the hook yet. He didnt complete the full mission because Snape stepped in. Is it possible that LV will punish Draco or try to kill him and that Snape will suffer consequences for it? Could Draco actually take a detour down the path he was headed and switch sides? If so, because of the vow, Snape would possibly still have to protect him or is the wording that tricky in a vow? Not sure

So, if those are a clue, what about "Felix Felicis"? Luck. Maybe there is more to this chapter than meets the eye. Will have to check it out again. Perhaps Harry will need to use this potion when preparing to defeat LV? I dunno...

Well, the clues don't seem as wonderful as I originally expected, but significant, definitely! There must be a reason that she hinted at those before unless she just thought they sounded cool enough to start us wondering.

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Puck - Jul 21, 2005 4:53 pm (#235 of 473)
James could not have heard the incantation even if Snape had used the Levicorpus spell on him, as it was non-verbal. Perhaps had bragged about inventing the spell to fellow slytherins, and maybe some had trouble with the non-verbal part, and spoke the incantation aloud.

I wonder why more wizards don't use the nonverbal spells in battle? They almost always yell out the incantions.

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Finn BV - Jul 21, 2005 5:02 pm (#236 of 473)
Wendelin, email one of the hosts to start a new thread. At the moment, adding discussions is off so the list of threads doesn't go on forever. When these rules lift, however, it will be easy.

Just a question about non-verbal spells ? I would post it in the appropriate chapter thread if I remembered in which chapter they premiered ? can they also be said aloud? For example, Dumbledore often conjured up an object from apparently nowhere, and he Immobilized Harry in his last hours (minutes). Surely, these incantations can be said aloud? We know Hermione and Lupin have used Immobilis before; therefore, Levicorpus could have obviously also been said for James to hear before Snape mastered or learned of non-verbal spells.

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Madam Pince - Jul 21, 2005 5:20 pm (#237 of 473)
I had the impression that non-verbal spells were just a better means of casting a regular spell. In other words, if you were an average wizard, or if you were otherwise distracted and couldn't concentrate properly, then you'd yell out the spell. If you were a very accomplished wizard who could concentrate in any circumstance, then you could use the same spells non-verbally, which would be much more effective because they would be much more difficult to counter.

Perhaps Snape had not quite progressed to the non-verbal level when he let fly with a "Levicorpus!" which James overheard. Or perhaps James "nicked" Snape's textbook -- it seems like something he would do as a prank. Remember Luna at the end of OoP trying to collect her things from students who had taken them over the course of the year as pranks -- it's one of the trials and tribulations that unpopular students have to suffer with sometimes, unfortunately.

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Mrs Brisbee - Jul 21, 2005 6:44 pm (#238 of 473)
Both Merope and Tonks had their magical abilities suppressed because they were miserable. Did Petunia and Vernon know that unhappiness squashes magical ability? I wonder, because they seemed determined to keep Harry unhappy when he was young. I particularly remember Mrs. Figg saying in OotP something about the Dursleys never would have allowed Harry over to her house if they thought he enjoyed it.

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Kazius - Jul 21, 2005 6:57 pm (#239 of 473)
One interesting thing I noticed recently.

How could Harry duel LV, if Snape defeats him so easily?

Perhaps Harry really does know Occlumency, he just can't control it. I defiently want to reread the duel in GoF now, though. Maybe Harry's scar blocks Legilimency from working backwards against Harry, which is the tool that Harry needs to defeat LV, since he wears his heart on his sleeve, making it extremely hard to do Occlumency.

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Madam Pince - Jul 21, 2005 7:09 pm (#240 of 473)
I think it's clear that Harry has a lot of work to do before he's ready for the final face-off with Lord Thingy.

Yet again, even in his last scene in the book, Snape is preparing Harry for this, much as a drill-sergeant prepares a raw recruit. It's not pretty, but he points out the areas that Harry needs to concentrate on if he intends to stay alive. His first class of Harry's very first year at Hogwarts gave Harry invaluable information (bezoars), and his very first class in HBP demonstrates the value of non-verbal spells. Would've been handy in the Astronomy Tower, wouldn't they?

I expect a good part of Book 7 to be Harry practicing and working on his skills in between searching for the Horcruxes. He will need a tutor -- Dumbledore is gone and so is Snape, apparently. Who will it be?

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Wendelin the Weird - Jul 21, 2005 7:44 pm (#241 of 473)
Well, didn't DD say that Harry would never be able to outmatch LV with spells? Thats why he was 'educating' him about Tom's past and that would be how he would defeat him. We've all been bracing for this huge confrontation battle-- what would we do if we didn't get it? I mean to say, LV doesnt seem to feel it when one of his horcruxes is destroyed, so perhaps Harry will be seeking them out in secrecy and destroying them one by one and at the final battle he is able to defeat LV with one spell? Or perhaps once he destroys all of the horcruxes someone else will deal the final blow saving his soul from the tearing of killing (Snape?). Dunno... guess we'll have to wait and see. No idea how Ill manage two years of waiting. *looks slightly mad already*

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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 21, 2005 7:46 pm (#242 of 473)
Edited Jul 21, 2005 9:35 pm
There are several possibilities for tutors for Harry.

I tend to think that each of the Hogwarts professors and Order members will contribute something to Harry's preparation. Even Severus contributed something by reminding Harry of the need to Occulmency.

On another topic this portion of the Interview with Melissa and Emerson is intriguing.

ES: This is one of my burning questions since the third book - why did Voldemort offer Lily so many chances to live? Would he actually have let her live?

JKR: Mmhm.

ES: Why?

JKR: [silence] Can't tell you. But he did offer, you're absolutely right. Don't you want to ask me why James's death didn't protect Lily and Harry? There?s your answer, you've just answered your own question, because she could have lived and chose to die. James was going to be killed anyway. Do you see what I mean? I?m not saying James wasn't ready to; he died trying to protect his family but he was going to be murdered anyway. He had no - he wasn't given a choice, so he rushed into it in a kind of animal way, I think there are distinctions in courage. James was immensely brave. But the caliber of Lily's bravery was, I think in this instance, higher because she could have saved herself. Now any mother, any normal mother would have done what Lily did. So in that sense her courage too was of an animal quality but she was given time to choose. James wasn't. It's like an intruder entering your house, isn't it? You would instinctively rush them. But if in cold blood you were told, "Get out of the way," you know, what would you do? I mean, I don't think any mother would stand aside from their child. But does that answer it? She did very consciously lay down her life. She had a clear choice -

ES: And James didn't.

JKR: Did he clearly die to try and protect Harry specifically given a clear choice? No. It's a subtle distinction and there's slightly more to it than that but that's most of the answer.

Why was James going to be murdered in the first place? What had he done to incur the wrath of Voldemort? Did the way in which, he defied Voldemort occur in such a way that Voldemort was himself forced to act because, his death eaters were impotent to stop James.

Also, why would a souless individual such as Voldemort give Lily a choice between life and death?

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Circe - Jul 21, 2005 8:29 pm (#243 of 473)
Also, why would a souless individual such as Voldemort give Lily a i choice between life and death?

I think that this is a major issue. What could he have offered her? A chance to run? Join the DE (he couldn't have been that dense)? Seems like it would have been easier to kill her right off.

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Vaughn - Jul 22, 2005 4:28 am (#244 of 473)
Good quote, and very intriguing. Hmmm. Why was Voldemorte planning on killing James? The first thing I thought of was James maybe destroyed a Horcrux, and Voldemorte wanted revenge.

And why not murder Lilly, does it have something to do with splitting souls?

As for Snape inventing levicorpus, I guess James could have heard him saying it out loud, but I figured if Snape was smart and able enough to invent his own spell, surely he would already be able to do nonverbals.

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Puck - Jul 22, 2005 4:49 am (#245 of 473)
If James overheard Levicorpus, it was likely from another Slytherin, one without Snapes abilities for the non verbal. I mean, in the book it was written that the spell was not meant to be spoken. I doubt they nicked the book, as Lupin had no idea that Snape had invented the spell.

I'm guessing that if a soul is torn as the result of killing, it can heal given a chance. Harry's soul would therefore be scarred, yet still whole, after killing LV.

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Elanor - Jul 22, 2005 5:10 am (#246 of 473)
Here again, maybe Regulus would fit well in the picture... He, being a Slytherin, may have been able to hear something about it and Sirius may have known it from his little brother. It is completely speculative, but I imagine pretty well the 2 brothers bickering and Regulus trying the spell on Sirius, the said Sirius not being long recognizing a good spell when he saw one... And what knew Sirius, James knew it too... But, again, this is completely speculative!

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Choices - Jul 22, 2005 9:10 am (#247 of 473)
About James dying - I believe we were told that Voldemort was out to kill off the "last two Potters" - James and Harry. So, James was a goner and Voldemort wanted to kill Harry for more than one reason - he was a Potter and he was also destined to be the one to vanquish Voldemort. Lily had the option of dying or not and she chose to sacrifice herself for Harry.

O.W.L. grades - I noticed last night in my re-reading that Harry got seven O.W.L.'s and it made me wonder if somehow Harry might use something he learned in each of those subjects - or if each of those subjects might correspond to one of the horcruxes. We have seen the horcrux in the diary and the one in the cave in the potion - those might correspond to Potions and perhaps Charms? Anyone have any ideas???

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siliconsmiley - Jul 22, 2005 9:28 am (#248 of 473)
Do we know for sure that Snape invented Levicorpus? Maybe he just made a note of it from another source. When he was talking about Harry using his own spells against him, I thought he meant Sectumsempra.

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Loopy Lupin - Jul 22, 2005 10:52 am (#249 of 473)
I thought Snape said the bit about using his own spells against him when Harry tried to do the Levicorpus against Snape with a silent incantation.

I guess the only source we have to confirm that Snape invented Levicorpus is Snape's own words. I tend to believe him on that count though.

As far as Harry dueling LV or meeting up with Snape again, I think that, if nothing else, Harry will, once and for all, learn Occlumency. I would envision a scene in which Harry catches up with Snape and we get a real look of horror on Snape's face the first time he realizes he can't penetrate Harry's mind. At that point, Snape would realize that he is facing a wizard who wants to kill him and is capable of doing it.

Why could Harry "duel" LV in the graveyard, but then be "wand-handled" by Snape later? I think that the GoF battle scene speaks more to LV underestimating Harry and surprise than anything else. Perhaps LV knew that Harry was about to try Expelliarmus, but didn't really care because Avada Kedavra is supposed to be unblockable. Then, of course, the quirk with the wands changed that.

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Choices - Jul 22, 2005 11:01 am (#250 of 473)
O.W.L. grades - I noticed last night in my re-reading that Harry got seven O.W.L.'s and it made me wonder if somehow Harry might use something he learned in each of those subjects - or if each of those subjects might correspond to one of the horcruxes. We have seen the horcrux in the diary and the one in the cave in the potion - those might correspond to Potions and perhaps Charms? Anyone have any ideas???

Sorry to post again, but I forgot the one in the ring. Just wanted to acknowledge it.

[Julia H.]

Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince Book Read Along (Chapter by Chapter Discussions Folder - General Discussion - Posts 251-300)

Matilda the Pygmy Puff - Jul 22, 2005 11:39 am (#251 of 473)
I think, MTW, if I'm thinking of the same scene you are, that it was a misprint, because Tonks wasn't in the scene. Harry was talking with Hermione, and there was a line that said "said Tonks" when she wasn't mentioned in the other paragraphs as being there at all.

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Joanne R. Reid - Jul 22, 2005 12:27 pm (#252 of 473)
Hi,

I just looked up the literal meaning of the name Scrimgeour. It's an ancient Scottish word, meaning Skirmisher or Scrimmager. Therefore, Rufus would be "The Red Skirmisher."

I might add that in the late 13th century, the Scrimgeours were the hereditary standard bearers of the Kings of Scotland.

Thanks,

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Detail Seeker - Jul 22, 2005 12:28 pm (#253 of 473)
As to "Levicorpus": There may be a parallel invention. James or Sirius seeing Snape doing that to somebody else, wanted t copy that one. So they invented something, that did the same. Not necessarily the same incantation, but working to the same effect.

Remember, that in GoF, Harry had to cross the fog, that turned everything upside down, something similar to the effect of "Levicorpus" but reached by different means.

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Professor Greene - Jul 22, 2005 3:39 pm (#254 of 473)
I just read this little piece of interview with JKR and I just can help but wonder. What does anyone else get from it.

Question: "Also , Will we see more of Snape?"

JKR: "You always see a lot of Snape, because he is a gift of a character. I hesitate to say that I love him. [Audience member: I do]. You Do? This is a very worrying thing. Are you thinking about Alan Rickman or about Snape? [Laughter]. Isn't this life, thought? I make this hero-Harry, obviously-and there he is on the screen, the perfect Harry, because Dan is very much as I imagine Harry, but who does every girl under the age of 15 fall in love with? Tom Felton, as Draco Malfoy. Girls, stop going for the bad guy. Go for a nice man in the first place. It took me 35 years to learn that, but I am giving you that nugget free, right now, at the beginning of your love lives."
... a little further on ... JKR: "Why do you love him?Why do people love Snape? I do not Understand this. Again it's bad boy syndrome, isn't it? It's very depressing. ..."

Now I maybe drawing more on this than is needed. But it sounds like JKR grouped Draco and Snape as bad guys, and not the kind to love kind.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 22, 2005 4:36 pm (#255 of 473)
In the interview with Emerson and Melissa J.K. Rowling described Dumbledore as beinng detached emotionally.

I find this to be quite surprising considering the way in he and Harry interacted at the end of PS, CoS, PoA, OotP and HBP. I wonder if his detachment is the result of losing someone he cared a great deal for in the first war with Voldemort like a sister, wife, child or other family member.

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Choices - Jul 22, 2005 4:55 pm (#256 of 473)
We definitely did not get any backstory on Dumbledore and I very much would like to know more about this intriguing and powerful wizard. Where does he come from and what is his history?

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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 22, 2005 5:01 pm (#257 of 473)
Choices, I am slightly annoyed with the fact that we have yet to learn more about Dumbledore because, of that quote J.K. Rowling gave long ago on whether some of the teachers are married. because, we still have had no answer to that question/ I feel like Harry in way it took him five years to find out why the Voldemort wants him dead.

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Choices - Jul 22, 2005 5:09 pm (#258 of 473)
I agree Nathan - Book 7 must be going to be a whopper because of all the information JKR still has to give us. We still have the Potter's backstory and Dumbledore's and the Malfoy's, and the Longbottom's. We must learn about Uncle Algie and Gran Longbottom and Treavor, for goodness sakes. I hope the book will be so huge we will all need help carrying it home. LOL

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Finn BV - Jul 22, 2005 5:12 pm (#259 of 473)
I am slightly annoyed with the fact that we have yet to learn more about Dumbledore because of that quote J.K. Rowling gave long ago on whether some of the teachers are married. --Nathan Zimmerman

Well, as it played no role in HBP, it must come in Book 7. I am sure that if any of the professors are married, the rest of the staff must not be aware of it, because ? for instance ? McGonagall would have informed Mrs. Dumbledore about the current state of her husband. I am very intrigued by that quote as what must the spouse feel like, alone 10 months of the year? Perhaps two of the faculty members are married and are shushing it up; certainly the Headmaster/mistress must keep these things on record?

Cross-posted with Choices.

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Puck - Jul 22, 2005 5:13 pm (#260 of 473)
A note about Levicorpus- there were several crossed out versions of the spell, as if Snape was making notes trying to get it right. I believe it was his own invention.

Perhaps the penseive will tell more about DD, though the interviewers did ask for a book abook his back story, and JKR seemed to be considering it.

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Madam Pince - Jul 22, 2005 5:13 pm (#261 of 473)
Shhhhhhh..... it's me and Argus. He's really a great guy -- actually we are both grossly misunderstood.

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Puck - Jul 22, 2005 5:13 pm (#262 of 473)
A note about Levicorpus- there were several crossed out versions of the spell, as if Snape was making notes trying to get it right. I believe it was his own invention.

Perhaps the penseive will tell more about DD, though the interviewers did ask for a book abook his back story, and JKR seemed to be considering it.

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Mrs. D. - Jul 22, 2005 6:17 pm (#263 of 473)
Actually looking back Trelawney and divination much as they seem fairly "wooly" might just be on track. I keep thinking back to Ron saying Harry was going to have trials and tribulations but he would be happy about it. Harry surely did but was very happy with thinking he would get to live with Sirius there for a bit. Also, the tower, the prophesy, Neville and the cup, Hermione leaving the class, now I want to go back and find them all from each of the books.

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Allison St Pierre - Jul 22, 2005 7:22 pm (#264 of 473)
Does anyone know if Rowling will continue to write after the series? She is a brillant writer.

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Rod Beecham - Jul 22, 2005 8:34 pm (#265 of 473)
A response to Professor Greene (Post #254). I have said often on the Snape thread - much to Gina's disgust! - that Snape is an extremely damaged and unpleasant person. No one can come close to him without being ambushed by a snub or a sneer.

However, I don't think his personal unpleasantness is inconsistent with his working against Voldemort. Personally affable people can do terrible things by omission or commission (look at Ludo Bagman, look at Slughorn - indeed, look at Fudge), while personally unpleasant people can fight on the right side (e.g. Barty Crouch Sr). I think JKR is trying to point out, gently, that we need to be a lttle nuanced in our evaluations of her characters - and of real people.

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Wendelin the Weird - Jul 23, 2005 12:31 am (#266 of 473)
Revelation! I know what the horcux is that Jo is speaking of in the interview-- the GOBLET OF FIRE!

This is likely the same cup that Riddle stole from that woman, and then proceeded to go murder his father to make it a horcrux. It was no coincidence that Crouch Jr. was able to hoodwink the cup, and no coincidence that it was the portkey-- :V needed the cup in order to be reborn. Combined with the bone of his father (who died to create it most likely) it returned that bit of his soul to his body.

In other words, the effect of the rebounded curse was to destroy that bit of his soul inhabiting his body, but because he had soul bits elsewhere he lingered. So he then gets the Goblet of Fire -- which fits with the description of being a powerful object in its own right before making it a horcrux. It all makes sense to me now. This is the only object we see in this context in DE hands (like the diary from Lucius's hands).

On another note, the last line I read before lying down to get some rest and having this thought blast me like a lightning bolt, was the line where Neville is talking about his new wand

paraphrased he says that he was probably the last person to buy a wand from Ollivande because he went missing the next day. Then as soon as he says this we are distracted by Trevor... Its certainly important somehow. Cherry with unicorn hair... hmm

Oh Im sooo glad I figured out the horcrux mystery! One down and 3 to go!

EDIT: one last comment before I really do make it to bed. In the new pt 3 Mugglenet interview Jo will not answer whether Snape had a crush on Lily. She also admits that Snape has been loved before (where LV hadn't), and she would only say 'no comment' to anyone else being at Godric's Hollow the night of the attack. I dont think we are too far off in thinking that Lily could see the best in people when they couldnt see it themselves... not just Lupin, but Snape too.

Okay, nighty night!

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Puck - Jul 23, 2005 6:19 am (#267 of 473)
Edited Jul 23, 2005 8:01 am
Well, hate to bust holes in a theory Wedelin is so happy about, but I have a few inconsistancies to point out.

First, Riddle had killed his father while still in school, and stole the cup after leaving Hogwarts. So, the time line doesn't work. (I believe the ring is the horcrux from his father.)

DD himself in the horcrux chapter says that the bit of soul in LV's body DID survive the AK, so he did not need to retreive a pice of his soul, only needed to regain a body. I believe with the exception of the diary the horcruxes would be better guarded, not at the mercy of "enemy" wizards.

Oh, and a question about the Felix potion. When Harry took it he seemed to instinctly know the right things to say/do. Hermione, Ron and Ginny were protected, but didn't seem to have the same awareness of what to do next. The Death Eaters sneak in past Ron and Ginny, and Hermione has no idea that she should stop Snape. Thoughts?

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haymoni - Jul 23, 2005 6:41 am (#268 of 473)
Complete change of subject -

Quidditch Mom wondered on the Draco's Detour thread if the cream Fred gave Hermione would work on Marietta's SNEAK.

I wondered about the whole black-eye thing. What was its purpose? Hermione gets a black eye and Fred gives her some cream that seems to work. Big deal! It didn't seem to move the plot along at all. They were going to WWW anyways - it's not like they went there to get rid of Hermione's black eye.

Will we later learn in book 7 that Hermione had been kind enough to give some to Marietta in Book 6? She can't give it to her in Book 7 - Marietta was a 7th year in Book 6 - assuming that she was the same age as Cho - that would have been her last year at Hogwarts.

So what is the purpose of the cream?

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HungarianHorntail11 - Jul 23, 2005 7:31 am (#269 of 473)
Puck, I am thinking that if most others suspicions are correct, that you have just pointed out a big neon of a hint. If the FF potion was taken before the DEs arrival and didn't tell Hermoine to stop Snape, that is very telling. JKR did go through a lot of trouble to let us know how the FF works, hence, if Snape was a danger to Hermoine, it would have alerted her in some manner. Think, if it was Draco coming out of that room. He would have hexed or maybe even AK'd Hermoine in a second.

haymoni, I think the black eye could have been a foreshadowing about Hermoine. She does end up feeling ashamed about the Snape situation, despite the FF potion working. The cream - maybe just showing that they have antidotes for all of their tricks. One of their products could come in handy (with only the Order members having the antidote) against the DEs in Book 7. Look at what the DEs were able to do with that smoke screen.

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Choices - Jul 23, 2005 9:06 am (#270 of 473)
Wendelin - "Revelation! I know what the horcux is that Jo is speaking of in the interview-- the GOBLET OF FIRE! This is likely the same cup that Riddle stole from that woman, and then proceeded to go murder his father to make it a horcrux. It was no coincidence that Crouch Jr. was able to hoodwink the cup, and no coincidence that it was the portkey-- :V needed the cup in order to be reborn. Combined with the bone of his father (who died to create it most likely) it returned that bit of his soul to his body."

Riddle killed his father and grandparents 50 years ago. The Goblet of Fire was not stolen - it is kept safe and secure in a chest between Triwizard tournaments. It is the same cup that has been used for centuries to choose the Triwizard champions. Crouch,Jr. did hoodwink the Goblet of Fire, but it was never used as a portkey - the Triwizard trophy was the portkey. Voldemort had no need of the trophy to be reborn - he never even touches the trophy. If he had, it would have transported him back to Hogwarts as it did Harry after the graveyard scene. No, there are too many errors in this theory for it to float.

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HungarianHorntail11 - Jul 23, 2005 9:22 am (#271 of 473)
I'm rereading my post and it seems sooo pathetically hopeful with regard to Snape. What I am really trying to say is that I hope there is much more to this situation than a man of DD's caliber begging for his life. I would really be disappointed in JKR if that was all there was to it.

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rassannassar - Jul 23, 2005 9:28 am (#272 of 473)
Edited Jul 23, 2005 10:58 am
This is sort of off topic, but if you do the math, Voldemort is about 71/72 years old. I never thought of him as being so old but it just goes to show that if a wizard is powerful, they live a lot longer with youthful abilities (i.e. Dumbledore). 50 years before Harry's 2nd year, Voldemort was 16/17. We know this because if it really was a Horcrux, then he didn't even know what they were until he was 16 and asked Slughorn. When Harry's 7th year begins (or should begin) it'll have been 55 years since Riddle made the diary. He's 71- or 72-years-old. He's really old.

EDIT: In response to the 3rd post down, 100-years-old is not even when you'd outlive your usefullness. According to this Lexicon, Dumbledore was over 150.

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Wendelin the Weird - Jul 23, 2005 9:31 am (#273 of 473)
Actually I was a bit confused -- it was the Triwizard Cup that Imeant not the Goblet of Fire. The goblet was wood, the cup was gold with two handles. Whether or not it is already a horcrux, we can still suspect that it may have become one at the graveyard had LV succeeded in killing Harry. We know from DD that he wanted Harry to create his 6th horcrux, so its still a possibility. However, it seems that LV already had the cup... why would it be at Hogwarts again? That I do not know. Dratted. Im still suspicious that the Triwizard Cup could have some significance, but then again, had one of the other schools won the tournament, wouldnt the cup be passed on to Durmstrang or Beauxbatons as the keeper?

Hmm I will have to continue researching this idea. Im not as sure as I was at 3am, I was exhausted.

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Choices - Jul 23, 2005 9:33 am (#274 of 473)
HH - I read an interesting theory I think on the Alchemy for HBP thread and I don't remember whose it was. It had to do with Dumbledore getting the ring which was a horcrux - he put it on and that is what blacked his hand and the bit of Voldemort's soul entered Dumbledore. The only way for it to be killed was to "kill" Dumbledore, and his begging Snape - "Severus, please" - really meant "sever us, please" - or in other words....get this bit of Voldemort out of me. Separate me from this foul piece of evil.

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Professor Greene - Jul 23, 2005 9:36 am (#275 of 473)
Age is a matter of mind. If you don't mind it don't matter.
Voldemort is younger that Dumbledore and until the hand and potion thing, I bet he was still able to give any of his students a run for thier money.
Really old is living past your own usefulness. Say closer to 100 or more.

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rassannassar - Jul 23, 2005 10:25 am (#276 of 473)
As I live in America and I only have the oppurtunity to read the American Version, can anyone tell me what the difference between the British Adult and the British Children's versions are. I have seen the coverart and I see that is different but is there anything else? I already know the difference between the American and British versions are because of this Lexicon.

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Mrs. D. - Jul 23, 2005 10:25 am (#277 of 473)
If Unbreakable Vows are so useful, why not demad them of your secret keeper? Could have avoided this whole mess! I suppose Voldemort doesn't require them of the DE's as he is too arrogant to think he needs them and DD doesn't require them (that we know of) as he is so trusting.

Note to all Witches and Wizards: Require UV's from your secret keepers!!

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Puck - Jul 23, 2005 11:35 am (#278 of 473)
Edited Jul 23, 2005 1:43 pm
Good point, Mrs. D! Of course, that might fly as well ask asking someone to sign a prenuptual agreement. "What are you aking me to be secret keeper for, if you don't even trust me!" *grin*

HH_ that was kind of my point, but wanted to know if others saw it, too. That is Snape had been on the wrong side, she would have found a way to stop him. Almost as if DD's death was "meant to be" for lack of a better term.

Wondering about the title "The lightening Struck Tower". Is it because of the old saying that lightening doesn't strike twice in the same place ? (Not true, btw) Let's see, Norbert was brought up here to be sent of to Romania, the saw McGonagall being stunned from up there, DD was killed there, what else has happened up in this tower?

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Allison St Pierre - Jul 23, 2005 11:57 am (#279 of 473)
I am more inclined to believe that Aunt Petunia will show her stuff in book 7 and she's not the "muggle" we are led to believe. I think she is going to protect more than Dudders and that Dudders dad is going to be left with his mouth hanging wide open.

Book 7 is going to have to be real long to explain all the questions left after reading the previous 6

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dizzy lizzy - Jul 23, 2005 3:22 pm (#280 of 473)
rassannassar - There is no difference in text between the adult and childrens UK versions. Only the cover.

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David Olson - Jul 23, 2005 3:42 pm (#281 of 473)
It had to do with Dumbledore getting the ring which was a horcrux - he put it on and that is what blacked his hand and the bit of Voldemort's soul entered Dumbledore.


That makes sense with the notion that after Voldy's demise, he could only possess a wizard. One bit possessed Quirrell. And the Riddle soulpiece tried to possess Ginny.

So that looks like a promising theory: the ring soulpiece may have tried to possess Dumbledore, and the potion weakened him to the point where the soulpiece was about to take over. It makes a great deal of sense, in the context of the Horcrux defense, for the potion to allow the piece of soul to possess the wizard. In fact, that pretty much fulfills the requirements stated in the cave: keep the wizard out until Voldy could arrive. But Voldy is there, in spirit, and ready to possess the trespasser.

So that would be a heckuva twist: in appearing to kill DD and thus gaining the trust of all Death Eaters everywhere, Snape actually wiped out a bit of Voldy.

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Madame Pomfrey - Jul 23, 2005 4:16 pm (#282 of 473)
Edited Jul 23, 2005 6:42 pm
Has anyone seen the new pics from GoF on Mugglenet? To be more specific,there is one with Harry standing by a tombstone which reads Thomas Riddle- death date 1943, Somebody else whose first name you cant see with the last name of Riddle- death date also 1943,Then under these two names is Tom Marvolo Riddle 1915-1942.Is this a huge mistake or is this a spoiler for book 7? If my math calcs are correct Tom Riddle opened the CoS in 1942.This is too weird!

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HungarianHorntail11 - Jul 23, 2005 6:03 pm (#283 of 473)
Choices, thanks for sharing that very intriguing bit of information. I will take a look at that thread.

I am not surprised that JKR didn't include a lot of specific information regarding horcruxes and how they work and are destroyed. It would allow too many to figure out too much before the release of Book 7. After a murder, can he carry a split part in a box, or in his pocket? Can he just send it off into an object with a wave of his wand and an incantation?

If so, perhaps that is the reason for Big V's visit to Hogwarts to ask for a teaching position. He was trying to get into the headmaster's room in an effort to send one of his split soul bits to the sword. As long as it is untouched, he cannot die and should not feel the need to retrieve it. He may have thought, 'one horcrux unfound is useful' but more would ensure that he lives on. What are the chances that all seven are found, retrieved and destroyed?

How is it destroyed?

Professor Greene, regarding your Post #254, I had that argument back on the Snape thread a while ago. That is what always leads me back to believing that he is what we think he is, and then along comes a great point such as Choices #274 and my hope is restored that there is more to him than meets the eye.

I am also curious with respect to the argument that took place between him and DD (Hagrid's recollection). Sorry, but I've tried to locate the page and can't come up with it.

I am wondering if anyone knows Regulus Black's middle name? I have a feeling that note in the locket may be his. I remember that the Black family followed Big V until they realized the lengths he was going through to make his point at which time they were put off. Regulus has also been mentioned briefly in HBP - it seems like we're being tossed a bone.

Edit: Madame Pomfrey, I just saw your post and that seems very interesting. My mind immediately shot to the CoS part in the end when DD is talking to Harry, DD says that Big V is the last remaining ancestor of SS. I have checked in numerous book stores and that line has never been changed to descendant. There is something funny going on here regarding timelines. And why did they destroy all time-turners?

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rassannassar - Jul 23, 2005 6:57 pm (#284 of 473)
First of all, it could be a printing error that it says ancestor and not descendant.

Second, the sword is most definitely not a Horcrux. Whether LV even knew about the sword or not, I couldn't say, but I am sure that the sword of Godric Gryffindor because it was hidden in the Sorting Hat until Harry pulled it out in his second year. I have already stated on several occasions my belief that the Sorthing Hat is a Horcrux. Considering that the Sorting Hat is always on display in the Head's office, maybe LV put a piece of his soul into it when he was asking Armando Dippet for a job or when he asked Dumbledore. Maybe whatever it is that needs to be done to turn something into a Horcrux doesn't require the use of a wand or words.

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HungarianHorntail11 - Jul 23, 2005 7:30 pm (#285 of 473)
I have been told that on the threads, rassannassar but why after so many years, hasn't it been corrected?

I don't think he was performing horcruxes when he went to Dippet. It seems as though that came later.

I also think Snape may have formed some sort of Unbreakable Vow to carry out orders from DD. When he was making one with Narcissa and I read what Hagrid said regarding an argument betw. DD and Snape, I felt as though he had put himself between a rock and a hard place. That is the only explanation I can come up with that seems feasible.

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DJ Evans - Jul 23, 2005 7:34 pm (#286 of 473)
I liked this book some what but for me it just wasn't the quite HP book as what she's given us in the past. To me there were parts that just didn't fit, parts that didn't go into detail enough, characters that were either totally left out or just barely mentioned, etc... As she has said in past interviews that books 6 & 7 were basically one, that 7 was a continuation of book 6. Which I have no problem with, thought it would be cool to do it that way. But if book 7 is anything like book 6 then I can see where there are going to be many many questions left unanswered for us. I hope I am 100% wrong in thinking that way too!!

I haven't had a chance to read "all" the posts in the spoiler folder yet, so this could have very well been mentioned many times before, but did it bother any one else too that nearly anybody could bring Harry a note and it was accepted as is? I mean security was supposed to be so high & everyone was to be on the lookout for suspicious acts and all, yet here you've got all of these kids delivering notes to Harry. That just struck me as odd, but maybe it was just me?

Later, Deb

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Mrs. Sirius - Jul 23, 2005 10:21 pm (#287 of 473)
Yes Marie, I did have the feeling every few chapters that she looked at the list and decided which question would get a one sentence answer at "in this chapter". I didn't finish reading until Tuesday, by which time the Bloomsbury edition had arrived.

I have tried to started my second reading but I can't seem to do it. I think that if I read it again it will become my favorite of the series but I can't have POA surpassed as my favorite.

My nine year old wants to read it. First I put him off by saying he had to wait until I finished, now I said well read it but we'll go very slowly and talk about it as we go. (I pay him 10 cent a page to read SS and COS to his sisters). I don't know how to explain the Spinner's End chapter even to my self yet.

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Magnus " The Fearless" Bagman - Jul 23, 2005 11:38 pm (#288 of 473)
Do you think that if DD and Snape had made an Unbreakable Vow and then Snape's Unbreakable Vow with Narcissa would cancel out. I'm not saying that DD and Snape made one but that there is numerous possiblites.

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Magnus " The Fearless" Bagman - Jul 23, 2005 11:46 pm (#289 of 473)
I dont think Harry was made a Horcrux, because wouldn't Voldemort then be able to possess Harry. It stated in "The Order of the Phoenix" that Voldemort wasn't able to possess him without mortal agony, and I dont think if Voldemort possessed Nagini he would have any trouble in doing so.

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Mrs Brisbee - Jul 24, 2005 4:51 am (#290 of 473)
Here's something at the end that bothered me. Luna and Neville are the only ones who answer the DA call-- that makes sense, because after over a year without DA meetings who is going to be checking their coins-- but why couldn't Luna round up the other Ravenclaw members or any of the Gryffindors go get the other Gryffindor members? I can see where it would be hard to contact the Hufflepuffs, but did anyone think to just ask Parvati or Katie Bell? Did they ask, and get snubbed, or just not bother?

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Puck - Jul 24, 2005 6:39 am (#291 of 473)
Mrs. Brisbee, I wondered about dean and Seamus as well.

I think it was the security which caused different students to bring Harry notes. No one would wonder much about being asked to deliver a single note, and I'm sure DD could charm it so none but Harry could open it. Plus, I think he only recieved 4 or 5 notes throughout the year, so it's not like he was flooded with them.

It suddenly hitting me last night. I don't no why I didn't notice it before, too caught up in the emotion I guess, but during the break-up scene, Ginny says she knew Harry wouldn't be happy unless he was "hunting Voldemort." She said the same, not You-Know-Who. We have yet to get this from Ron. Just seemed like a big step to me, as -unlike Harry and Hermione- she was raised in the wizarding world. Harry, also caught up in emotion- doesn't seem to notice this, either.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 24, 2005 6:55 am (#292 of 473)
I think Ginny's willingness to use Voldemort's name comes from her experiences in CoS because, they made her stronger. She has experienced things that Ron cannot even begin to imagine. Yet, she does allow her fear of Voldemort to rule her. I think of the six Harry, Hermione, Ginny, Neville and Luna who participated in the battles at the DoM and the Tower that Ron will be the last to overcome his fear of Voldemort and use his name openly.

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HungarianHorntail11 - Jul 24, 2005 7:18 am (#293 of 473)
Lord Labiathon, it seems to me as though you can make as many Unbreakable Vows as you care to (or are lead into, in Snape's case), but you can't break one. And no, I don't think one would cancel out the other. I still think he is bound to help Harry through, via DD's orders which is why the argument ensued (I think Snape was not happy with DD's current instructions). It would also explain why DD said he put himself at great risk to help the Order in that Pensieve memory.

Big V did, in fact, possess Harry momentarily - until Harry's mind wandered to Sirius. The love he felt for him caused Big V to recoil. But I wouldn't go by that bit alone, I can't see him possessing a ring or cup, either.

Sorry, an edit: Back to Snape, what I was trying to say is that I think Snape is loyal to DD and went to him way back when in an effort to save his skin. Little did he know that part of the deal would end up with Snape having to help "Potty". So, I feel as though he is doing this begrudgingly. The Draco/Big V situation and all that evolved from it really opened up my eyes as to how Snape may have ended up where he now is.

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Finn BV - Jul 24, 2005 9:06 am (#294 of 473)
When Hermione says "I like really good Quidditch players!" in Chapter 15, and since Hermione and Ron is the 'ship that sails at the end of the book, isn't this a compliment (not at the time, of course, but later on) to Ron? Obviously Ron won't ever realize it, but is this supposed to be a hint from JKR?

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Madam Pince - Jul 24, 2005 9:47 am (#295 of 473)
Deb, I noticed that part about the notes being delivered to Harry also. It worried me throughout the whole book -- I was sure one of them was going to be fake and he was going to get taken in by it. It did seem that all the "security" rather went by the wayside after the first initial "mollywobbles" and all that. I was a bit concerned when Scrimgeous and Percy showed up at Christmas dinner, too -- nobody checked them.

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HungarianHorntail11 - Jul 24, 2005 2:52 pm (#296 of 473)
This counters what I said in my previous post regarding Snape not knowing that he'd have to help "Potty". But Wendelin the Weird brought up a very good point on the Spinners End thread regarding Snape's life debt to James P.

I then looked up this passage from SS, softcover ed. pg. 300:

"Well, they did rather detest each other. Not unlike yourself and Mr. Malfoy. And then, your father did something Snape could never forgive."

"What?"

"He saved his life."

"What?"

"Yes . . ." said DD dreamily. "Funny, the way people's minds work, isn't it? Professor Snape couldn't bear being in your father's debt . . .I do believe he worked so hard to protect you this year because he felt that would make him and your father even. Then he could go back to hating your father's memory in peace. . . ."

This reveals two things to me; first, DD knows a lot about Snape and second, Snape is destined to repay his debt, albeit, grudgingly (as I suspected he was doing his work for DD).

This would also answer the question someone - sorry, I can't remember who - asked regarding why Snape saved Harry from Quirrell during the Quidditch match.

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Magnus " The Fearless" Bagman - Jul 24, 2005 3:38 pm (#297 of 473)
In the Horcruxes chapter when Harry and DD are talking in his office about the possible horcruxes and the way to killing Voldemort, DD says, "It will take uncommon skill and power to kill a wizard like Voldemort even without his horcruxes.", then Harry says, "But I haven't got uncommon skill and power." I agree because up to this point Harry hasn't shown any extraordinary powers to that of the level of Voldemort or even Snape. Then DD says he does have a power Voldemort has never had, the power to "love". I dont know how Harry is going to use this in any way to kill Voldemort. Whats he going to do, forgive Voldemort for killing his parents, Sirius, Cedric Diggory, and then love him to death? If anything like this happens in book 7 I will be very dissapointed.

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Scarlet Seer - Jul 24, 2005 3:46 pm (#298 of 473)
On a different topic, has anyone noticed that Harry Potter is getting rather Star Wars-esqe? I mean, you have Snapo Calrissian, the dodgy friend who turns out to be an enemy who turns out to be a friend in the end (I think). You have Dob-Dob Binks, the comic relief character who talks funny. ("Mesa serve Harry Potter...") You have Princess Hermiona (Well, you try to make Hermione sound like Leia!) and Ron Solo, the friends who fight but inevitably end up together, and you have the barely human villein, Lord Volder.

And then there's this "Chosen One" schtick! Can't you just see Professor Dippet saying to the young Dumbledore, "Is he not the chosen one? The one to destroy evil and bring balance to the elements?" and Dumbledore responding, "I don't trust the boy. I don't think he can handle it."? It is an interesting image. I can just see it now: Harry and Dumbledore are fighting on the Hogwarts astronomy tower.

Lord Volder: No, Harry, you ARE my Horcrux!

Harry: NOOOOOOOO! (He plunges off of the tower.)

Well, maybe not, but it's a funny thought, isn't it?

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MTW - Jul 24, 2005 4:47 pm (#299 of 473)
Matilda

It was Tonks, Hermione and Ron went to Hogsmead that day. Harry was alone with the Cloak. He asked her what she was doing here. She responded she was looking for DD. Harry retorted DD office being on the other side of Hogwarts. But he never push to get an answer why she was on that floor.

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jesepi - Jul 24, 2005 4:56 pm (#300 of 473)
Scarlet, I completely see it. Harry falls off the tower and Lord voldy turns to the Half Blood Prince and says something along the lines of it is a shame it didn't work out, but there is another..(Neville).

[Julia H.]

Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince Book Read Along (Chapter by Chapter Discussions Folder - General Discussion - Posts 301-350)

bella - Jul 24, 2005 5:25 pm (#301 of 473)
I also found it sort of random how Tonks found Harry on the train. She knew exactly where to look for him. Strange...

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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 24, 2005 5:32 pm (#302 of 473)
I just thought it was a logical choice for Tonks to start looking because, I am sure that Tonks is well aware of the concerns that Harry imparted to Arthur about Draco being a Death Eater.

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bella - Jul 24, 2005 5:39 pm (#303 of 473)
It would certainly be logical for her to start looking. I'm thinking that she was probably following him. The chances of walking into the right compartment and then just happening to bend at the right spot to pull the cloak off doesn't make any sense otherwise. It would account for the meeting by the RoR too.

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Magnus " The Fearless" Bagman - Jul 24, 2005 5:56 pm (#304 of 473)
If DD is dead, could Harry still talk to DD because after every headmaster dies they put his pic in the office? could DD still help Harry even though he is dead?

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HungarianHorntail11 - Jul 24, 2005 6:33 pm (#305 of 473)
I think so, Lord Labiathon. Think of all the input (both helpful and unwelcome) DD received from the previous headmasters.

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rassannassar - Jul 24, 2005 6:36 pm (#306 of 473)
That is probably why there are portraits of all the previous Headmasters and Headmistresses--except for the founders, oddly enough. Their purpose is to help the current Headmaster or Headmistress and give advice whether or not it is asked for as Phineas Nigellus has already shown. Why else would they be in the Head's office and not the Entrance or Great Hall for all to see?

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Puck - Jul 24, 2005 7:24 pm (#307 of 473)
I was thinking about Snape's comments to Bella about Harry being a mediocore wizard not worthy of attending Hogwarts. Is is just trying to get the enemy to underestimate Harry, or does he really think this? Is he that full of hatred that he can't see that Harry does have talent? I mean, at 13 he produced a Patronus strong enough to ward off 100 dementors. He got past that dragon. Snape knows and sees all this. Yet, he talks as if the boy is just half a notch above a squib ability-wise. So, who's he trying to fool/convince?

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HungarianHorntail11 - Jul 24, 2005 7:43 pm (#308 of 473)
I think he wants it to get back to Big V. so he is unprepared.

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HungarianHorntail11 - Jul 25, 2005 6:19 am (#309 of 473)
Does anyone think it's strange that Harry (unknowingly, of course) is sticking up for the HBP aka Snape ('it's not his fault') all the while Hermoine is pressuring him and questioning him? Sort of reminds me of the DD/Harry situation. I think DD knew Snape was helpful, even if his heart wasn't in it, therefore, trusted him and perhaps used Snape to DD's advantage, in a similar manner to Harry with the HBP. The sectumsempra situation reminded me of how DD didn't allow Snape near the DADA position, although DD did know it was cursed, so maybe that itself isn't correct, but I think DD was aware that Snape was treading on thin ice with regard to his loyalties.

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dd - Jul 25, 2005 11:29 am (#310 of 473)
Edited by Detail Seeker Jul 25, 2005 1:07 pm
I've seen the Star Wars similarities too. I think DD WANTED Snape to kill him, much like Obewan. The pleading he was doing was for Snape to go through with it.

Edited for netspeak. Detail Seeker

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Good Evans - Jul 25, 2005 11:33 am (#311 of 473)
HH - that is an interesting point - wanting to keep Snape close and safe for further agent work - he would not give him the DADA job as he knew it was cursed? certainly takes some thinking about. It wasn't that DD didn't trust Sanpe it was that he needed him on his side and able to report if LV did indeed return , asDD knew he must... yes I like that...

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Emily - Jul 25, 2005 11:50 am (#312 of 473)
OK, I have a question. In OP (I don't have an exact quote) DD tells Harry that A DE overheard the prophecy but was thrown out half way through In HBP, Trelawney says about her interview:

"...I must confess that, at first, I thought he(DD) seemed ill-disposed toward divination... and I remember I was starting to feel a little odd, I had not eaten much that day... but then..."

And now Harry was paying attention properly for the first time, for he knew what had happened then: Professor Trelawney had made the prophecy that had altered the course of his whole life, the prophecy about him and Voldemort.

"...but then we were rudely interrupted by Severus Snape!"

"What?"

"Yes, there was a commotion outside the door and it flew open, and there was that rather uncouth bar man standing with Snape, who was waffling about having come the wrong way up the stairs, although I'm afraid that I myself rather thought he had been apprehended eavesdropping on my interview with Dumbledore - you see, he himself was seeking a job at the time and no doubt hoped to pick up tips! Well, after that, you know, Dumbledore seemed much more disposed to give me a job..."

-pp. 544-545 (chapter 25) US ed.

OK, this is really interesting, now isn't it? DD says Snape was caught and thrown out before he heard everything, but Trelawney says he was still there after the prophecy! I assume that when she felt odd, that was because of the prophecy, since immediately afterward DD gave her the job. DD himself tells Harry this in OP, that he gave her the job after the prophecy. And of course, Harry thinks this to be the right spot too, although we know he's not always right. Basically the two reports don't match. We know DD normally tells Harry the truth or nothing at all, but what reason could Trelawney possibly have for lying to Harry at this point, since she doesn't know about the prophecy at all?

I'm not sure where this could go, whether it's fuel for Good!Snape/Bad!Snape, or if I'm completely mistaken, but what do you think?

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Good Evans - Jul 25, 2005 11:54 am (#313 of 473)
good catch - you are absolutley correct, however perhaps Snape heard a bit, was apprehended by Aberforth and although was still there did not hear the rest, sybill finished, Snape was still there but had not heard the remainder, he reported the half he had heard to LV. Intersting that DD did not modify Snapes memory about the prophecy, or maybe with Snape being a good Occlumens he managed to stop it happening?

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Emily - Jul 25, 2005 11:59 am (#314 of 473)
I could agree with that, except that DD says quite specifically that Snape was thrown out completely half way through. I'm getting myself a bit confused thugh, by now. If Snape had been apprehended but left where he was, couldn't he still have heard? And of course, I really want to know why the two reports don't match. Did Jo just make a mistake, do you think? But something this big... or at least it seems big to me.

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HungarianHorntail11 - Jul 25, 2005 12:24 pm (#315 of 473)
Emily, that occurred to me also and I reread that exact section to ensure that the timing was indeed contradictory to what DD told Harry. By the time I found it and read it, I was interrupted and was never able to post it. I am so glad you did, because I'd forgotten all about it. I always wondered, prior to this, how DD knew Snape had been apprehended half way through yet DD still managed to hear the entire prophecy? After all, Trelawney didn't repeat it, except for the first line.

If Snape only told part of it to Big V., then he may have concluded in some manner that it would lead to the demise of Big V. That would take some REAL foresight on Snape's part - no one's that clever.

If a struggle ensued, Snape's eavesdropping would certainly have been interrupted - the door only opened upon the completion of Trelawney's prediction, (Trelawney's awareness returned in time to see the door fly open). So he must have been there while the entire prophecy was being spoken.

Snape was looking for a job, so he may have been sent by Big V to apply for the DADA position which would mean he was still on Big V's side.

Apprehending Snape would have been a good time for DD to try and strike a deal with him, but we know he went back to Big V immediately afterward. I guess the big question is, did he only give Big V a half-truth on purpose, or because that was all he actually heard? Glad to be of help :0

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Emily - Jul 25, 2005 12:30 pm (#316 of 473)
Good points, HH11! I hadn't considered what it all meant in concern to V, only what it meant between Snape and DD.

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Scarlet Seer - Jul 25, 2005 12:41 pm (#317 of 473)
Jesepi- Dobby lies dying in the Hogwarts kitchen and gasps out, "There is another... H... Potter."

We even have the "I've lost my hand" thing going around (Wormtail).

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HungarianHorntail11 - Jul 25, 2005 12:51 pm (#318 of 473)
Emily, I was speaking tongue-in-cheek when I wrote glad to be of help since I asked more questions rather than helping to provide answers. I'm glad you found something positive in my post.

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Madame Librarian - Jul 25, 2005 2:18 pm (#319 of 473)
I'm doing a jump-shift on the topic here though the bit involving Sibyll and the prophecy is good stuff. I just have nothing to add.

I'm sorry if this is being discussed on another thread or was mentioned earlier here, but I'd like Forum members to share their thinking on hands. Hands (or a hand) seem to play a large role or least be mentioned distinctly in at least three of the books--the Hand of Glory introduced in CoS, Wormtail's hand and its replacement in OoP, and now this dramatically injured (like it's dead?) hand of DD's in HBP.

Every time Harry is in a scene with DD his withered, black hand is mentioned I believe. It's certainly a disturbing image and Harry is very concerned about it. The story of how it happened keeps getting put off.

Did DD sacrifice his hand for something ala Wormtail (something that's for the good side, I hope)? Is it a form of creeping death (awful thought)? Does it have a parallel in the other hands featured in the books?

Finally, one last key hand reference that may be just a turn of phrase or a very subtle hint--"...and Either Must Die at the Hand of The Other...." Hmmm.

Ciao. Barb

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timrew - Jul 25, 2005 2:44 pm (#320 of 473)
Talking of hands........JKR said in an interview that Peter Pettigrew would not kill Lupin with his silver hand.

What if he uses it instead to kill Fenrir Greyback in order to save Harry's life?

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Herm oh ninny - Jul 25, 2005 2:47 pm (#321 of 473)
Timrew- I was thinking the same thing.

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Madam Pince - Jul 25, 2005 3:20 pm (#322 of 473)
I like that idea, too, Tim. Fenrir is one nasty bit of goods. I can see him going after a little snack of rat, too, so maybe Wormtail would have another additional reason to defend himself.

Barb, I agree that Dumbledore's withered hand was something more than just getting injured doing the ring Horcrux. I really really wish he had gotten around to telling that whole story.

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Madame Librarian - Jul 25, 2005 3:45 pm (#323 of 473)
Yes, Madam Pince, now I realize that in order for us to learn what happened (and I certainly hope that's not an expendable tale in Jo's mind), one of four things must happen:

1) DD is really still alive and will tell all in book 7.

2) DD is dead but is able somehow to communicate to Harry and tells the story.

3) DD is dead so someone else who knows what happened will recount the facts. Who? Snape? Voldemort? Come to think of it, someone else could tell us even if DD is still alive.

4) Alas--Harry joins DD in the Beyond (dies in other words) and he and DD have a good sit-down and DD tells him absolutely everything.

Which option do I wish would happen? One, of course. Which do I think likely? Three...for now.

Ciao. Barb

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HungarianHorntail11 - Jul 25, 2005 4:12 pm (#324 of 473)
Timrew, there was a similar discussion on the Fenrir Greyback thread.

Did DD sacrifice his hand for something ala Wormtail (something that's for the good side, I hope)? Is it a form of creeping death (awful thought)? Does it have a parallel in the other hands featured in the books?

Mme. Librarian, I choose all of the above. In addition, Choices pointed out that it may be that the horcrux deposited itself into DD when he tried to destroy it, hence the evil within was destroying him.

Also, remember that DD's portrait appeared in the Headmaster's office. *sniff*

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Puck - Jul 25, 2005 5:10 pm (#325 of 473)
Okay, according to the classroom observations conducted by Umbridge, Trelawney was hired about a year and a half before Snape. So, he was likely still a DE at that time, and was a while after hearing the prophecy that he came to DD (assuming he got a teaching position soon thereafter.) It could be that he was outside the door the whole time, but could not listen to the second half because Alberforth was there and prevented it.

No, we didn't hear the story of the ring, and thus Harry still knows little about how to destroy a Horcrux, info which he will need. I hope DD had the foresight to put such things in his pensieve for Harry to find. We also never really found out how LV's mother died, only that she could have somehow saved her self if she had used magic. I mean, if it was due to birth trauma, she wasn't a healer, so how would she know what to do? Even Harry makes the assumption that she chose to die, and I didn't get this, as he never really knew HOW she died.

Interesting about hands. Have to think on it.

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Madame Librarian - Jul 25, 2005 7:03 pm (#326 of 473)
In addition, Choices pointed out that it may be that the horcrux deposited itself into DD when he tried to destroy it, hence the evil within was destroying him. (From Hungarian Horntail II's post #324 above.)

Intriguing idea about the horcrux being deposited in DD himself. Question: If another human can be used as the repository of someone else's soul or piece thereof, does this mean that Harry could also be one of Voldemort's horcruxes? Is that who "the Other" is?

(This is a hugely simplified version of a long-ago theory I proposed as to what happenend to Harry when he was AK'd by Voldemort. I didn't use the term soul, I called it the essence, but the net effect was similar. Of course, I never imagined seven chunks of soul getting placed who knows where.)

Ciao. Barb

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poohnpiglettt - Jul 25, 2005 11:57 pm (#327 of 473)
Greetings all. Very new to this but I have a few theories I welcome anyone far more versed in in Harry Potter to help me work out (or disprove :p ). Here goes a few things I noticed:

1. I have not seen this mentioned at all but I may have missed it--havent had time to really read all of the posts. Something in The Phoenix Lament when everyone is describing what happened that night to Harry, especially involving Snape. Did anyone else notice that Snape seemed to have "disappeared" for a moment in all of the fuss right before he ran upstairs to DD? Tonks says "...Snape was there...and then he wasn't"; Ginny saw him running toward them but "...that huge death eater's jinx" made her lose track of things. Next thing Lupin saw him "run straight through the cursed barrier." Could he possible have disapparated for a moment to go and come back to get something? I know, can't on Hogwart's grounds but that had been lifted for an hour at a time before under Dumbledore's orders for apparition practice. Why not again, again under Dumbledore's orders? Might also explain why Snape had to knock out Fliwick if he was the one who had taken off the enchantment, most likely since he teaches charms, and he may have just known he had to do it on Dumbledore's orders but not know why and Snape needed a little more time to act.

2. What could he have gone to get? Something to get him through the barrier, something to either make him temporarily evil (he knows a lot of dark arts} or something truly evil. Another reason for Flitwick: is it possible that Voldemort actually did get a Horcrux of Ravenclaw's and DD knew and had told Snape and Snape went to retrieve it while Flitwick was knocked out in order to not only have it to destroy but to make it through the barrier. After all, the if he could not have gotten through the barrier, the other death eaters would know he was not sincere.

3. Who is the big, blond death eater, the one sending "jinxes all over the place, ...barely missing" everybody? The one that blocks Snape from view. Almost like a body guard for Snape but never hitting anyone--could it be Pettigrew paying back his debt to Harry? Whoever it is, the spells kept missing, even though Ginny thinks it's the Felix potion that did it.

4. And finally, for now anyway :p, back to my theory 3, that Ginny thinks the Felix potion saved them. Im not sure, but doesn't the Felix potion only work for those who took it. I think only Ron, Hermione, and Ron took it if I'm not mistaken. And if only them, how would all of the rest of them been spared or missed by all the shots fired off, especially by the big blond firing off all the curses? If it works for everyone involved, in other words their luck extends because part of their luck is intertwined with the luck of others at the school, then wouldn't everyhing be working out for the best, including DD's death. As Harry described it, it helped him know exactly where to go, what to do, even though he didn't understand it himself. So everything that happened that night was meant to happen for the best.

Whew...hope I at least articulated my theories correctly. Let me know what you think.

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spinowner - Jul 26, 2005 5:17 am (#328 of 473)
I haven't read through all the posts (yet!) but I wanted to mention this. I bought the deluxe version to get the extra illustrations--turns out there are only a few different ones, most notably the front cover. What I found noteworthy is that the illustration on the front cover of the regular edition is on the inside front cover of the deluxe edition. However, the image is reversed, with Harry on the left and DD on the right. This puts Harry's wand in his right hand. Harry's right hand is his wand hand, so why was the image reversed for the cover of the regular edition? I think the cover of GoF is the same way, if I'm not mistaken.

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Ida-ho-Potato - Jul 26, 2005 6:20 am (#329 of 473)
Hello, I did not know where to put this. So please excuse me if this is in the wrong place. I was reading in the Newspaper from Indiana the Indianapolis Star, and it has a section called "let it out". Somebody called and and said,

Let's see if I can get this straight: The world is in constant danger from real terrorists and people are raising a stink about Harry Potter? How many people do you know of personally that have died from reading those books?

I thought that was an interesting quote that I read. Just wanted to share it with you.

Ida

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Flo - Jul 26, 2005 7:23 am (#330 of 473)
Hello Spinowner,

The most simple explanation would be that is is a mistake. Indeed, on the picture of the book I have (it is the one with the fire circling Harry and Dumbledore), we can see that DD's right hand is normal whereas it is supposed to be black and weak...

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Choices - Jul 26, 2005 8:18 am (#331 of 473)
Ida - That would be a good quote to put on the regular forum - there is a thread near the bottom (above the movie threads) about "Harry Potter in the Real World" or something to that effect. It would be great there.

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Puck - Jul 26, 2005 9:38 am (#332 of 473)
I had a question about Snape. Do you think he knew what he was signing on to when he made the Unbreakable Vow? Perhaps LV hadn't told Snape his plan, but Snape had acted as if he knew in an attempt to get Narcissa and Bella to tell him. He obviously didn't know how Draco was going about his task when they talked before Christmas, but how can we be sure he knew even then what the task was?

If he DID know what Draco's "job" was, then he knew when he made the vow it would mean either his life or DD's. If not, he did not know at the time he was condemming either himself or DD to death.

Perhaps that was the argument between himself and DD. After discovering Draco was meant to kill DD, Snape went to DD and told him everything. DD argued that Snape must go ahead with it in order to save himself and the boy.

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Vaughn - Jul 26, 2005 1:11 pm (#333 of 473)
That makes a lot of sense to me Puck. I think that if Snape turns out to be a good guy, your scenario is probably right on.

By the way, I really like the idea that someone posted about the Felix Filicis (SP)and the fight in the castle, that everything worked out exactly as it was supposed to, that the reason all the kids (Hermione in particular)let Snape get through was because the potion was urging them to, and therefore it allowed DD to be killed because that was the best way for things to work out...kind of hard to imagine that would be the best thing to happen, but maybe we will see later why it was.

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Portia - Jul 26, 2005 3:53 pm (#334 of 473)
I was thinking something very similar; that Snape had already promised DD that he would be the one to end DD's life when the time was right. This would make sense if you look at how DD was with Harry, telling him you have to do what I ask of you no matter how difficult; ie the potion. Snape would have had less difficulty entering in the unbreakable vow, knowing he had promised DD he would do this anyway. This also gave him much more credibility with Narcissa and Bellatrix who doubted his loyalty.

Harry no longer has access to LV's thoughts and feelings. With Snape proving himself to such a degree he would certainly get most information on what LV's planning. He could then act behind the scenes in the future to help Harry defeat Voldemort. It would definitely have to be behind the scenes cause there's no way Harry could trust Snape. I am new here, by the way. There are certainly some interesting thoughts posted on this board.

Portia

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Puck - Jul 26, 2005 5:01 pm (#335 of 473)
Okay, so who put the I,mperius Curse on Katie? I know we were told it was Rosermeta, but can someone under the Curse put it on someone else?

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Mrs Brisbee - Jul 26, 2005 5:11 pm (#336 of 473)
That was bugging me too, Puck. We could end up with an endless chain of Imperio'ed people. Where did Rosmerta learn the Imperius Curse, anyway? You would also think someone would have come up with a counter charm by now, but that doean't seem to be the case.

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Choices - Jul 26, 2005 5:35 pm (#337 of 473)
Do we know for sure that Katie was Imperio'ed? I haven't gotten to that chapter in my re-read, but I thought her problems were caused by touching the necklace slightly, not by being Imperio'ed. Does it say for sure that she was or is it just speculation because she doesn't remember taking the box or who gave it to her?

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Steve Newton - Jul 26, 2005 6:09 pm (#338 of 473)
I never thought tht Katie was imperioed. What makes you think that she was?

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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 26, 2005 7:03 pm (#339 of 473)
Katie was compelled to deliver the necklace. Her friend tried to stop her, but Katie fought with her friend. It was during that struggle that Katie touched the necklace. Something was compelling her to deliver it before she touched the actual necklace. After she was jolted from her compulsion, she forgot everything that happened after she went into the bathroom. Her friend said she looked funny after leaving the bathroom. After saying that, her friend also came to the conclusion that she had been Imperiused. So we don't know for sure that she was Imperiused, but that seems to be what most of the characters concluded and it seems logical.

-TWW

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Solitaire - Jul 26, 2005 9:46 pm (#340 of 473)
I just posted the following item on the Spinner's End thread, but I immediately realized it gave away too much info for those who had not yet completed the book ... so I am moving it here. I apologize if someone has already proposed this. I've not yet read the entire thread.

Snape had to step in and do Draco's job for him. I'm wondering what, if any, repercussions this may have for Draco. I have to believe that Voldemort knows Snape and not Draco did the deed.

Then again, given the "ethics" of the wizards with whom we are dealing, is it possible that Voldemort secretly ordered Narcissa and Bella to set up Snape? I'm no fan of Snape's, but manipulating him into making an unbreakable vow to complete an assignment LV may realize Draco will never be able to do is certainly a way to force Snape's hand, isn't it? Just an idle thought ...

Solitaire

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 26, 2005 10:02 pm (#341 of 473)
interesting idling... idle on!

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Solitaire - Jul 26, 2005 10:10 pm (#342 of 473)
Do you suppose Gina will be proud of me? hehehe

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Flo - Jul 26, 2005 11:24 pm (#343 of 473)
Steve Newton, it seems to me that when Katies comes back from St Mungo, she explains that she was put under the Imperius curse

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 27, 2005 12:45 am (#344 of 473)
Seems to me a lot of the DE's said the same...

She still is unclear from whence it came, maybe someone taking a leaf from the "amazing, bouncing ferrets book?

Maybe is the PC cliché of the times to explain what you can't, or won't? Maybe she honestly doesn't know?

Rosemerta is the wild card here. When was she Impervio'd, by whom? Is it possible to be under more than one Imperio curse at the time?

Lastly, why did Dumbledore not spot it, or did he?

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Steve Newton - Jul 27, 2005 5:01 am (#345 of 473)
Flo and Wandless, thanks for the reminder. Give me a couple of weeks and I will have all of the details. Not yet, though.

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Solitaire - Jul 27, 2005 7:09 am (#346 of 473)
Did Malfoy put her under the Imperius Curse? If he has been coming and going via the vanishing cabinet all this time, then he could very well have vanished to B&B, apparated to Hogsmeade and back, and then returned to the school via the cabinet. Right?

If not Draco, then let us not forget his mom and his Auntie Bella. They have obviously been "on the loose" and could have nipped in and cast the curse on Rosmerta. Is it possible she did not even realize she was under the curse?

Solitaire

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Choices - Jul 27, 2005 9:54 am (#347 of 473)
McGonagall says Draco was doing a detention with her while the others were in Hogsmeade. I doubt he was out of her sight, but I guess it's possible.

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spinowner - Jul 27, 2005 10:48 am (#348 of 473)
Finally got through all these posts...I want to say that I do not think Harry is the seventh horcrux. I would think LV would have detected that part of his soul when he possessed Harry at the MoM. Do we have any information on how the rules of magic apply to such a circumstance?

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valuereflection - Jul 27, 2005 11:36 am (#349 of 473)
Choices said in Post #247 that Voldemort was "out to kill off the last two Potters." Please would someone direct me to where this quote came from.

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David Olson - Jul 27, 2005 11:53 am (#350 of 473)
I'm not sure where to put this comment, but is anyone knowledgable about sociopaths? Voldemort fits some of the obvious profiles I know: socially aware but no empathy, tortured and killed small animals when young, a "collector" of memorable objects. I have to think she's working off a standard profile for a serial killer.

[Julia H.]

Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince Book Read Along (Chapter by Chapter Discussions Folder - General Discussion - Posts 351-400)

Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 27, 2005 12:32 pm (#351 of 473)
I agree David. JKR made it quite clear that Voldemort has those tendencies. I think it maybe tie into her comment, (I forgot where) that Voldemort has never loved anyone.

Solitaire Draco made it quite clear he had help to Snape. At the time I thought it was people in his House and age group. He seemed determined to do it himself. Bella would have to be very careful to not be seen. I would not be surprised if she was helping him more than teaching him. LPO

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Ticker - Jul 27, 2005 1:00 pm (#352 of 473)
I regards to the Imperius Curse on Katie... When Moody/Crouch was teaching in GoF... Harry, who resisted, didn't seem to have any problem remembering what was going on or what the other voice in his head was trying to make him do. I can't recall if those who weren't able to resist were unable to remember. Not remembering sounds more like Ginny's possession... or perhaps Katie's trauma effected her memory. I'll be interested to know what you come up with, Steve.

There's a lot I don't understand about the curse, especially in regards to how Rosemerta was controlled, yet able to behave otherwise normally. It's got to be a logistical nightmare to maintain, and you'd have to maintain it or pack your Azkaban bag.

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Solitaire - Jul 27, 2005 1:26 pm (#353 of 473)
I realize Draco made it quite clear to Snape that he had his own plan. But when push came to shove, who did the deed?

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Kwikspell - Jul 27, 2005 3:42 pm (#354 of 473)
I think someone mentioned on another thread that Blaise was lounging around the Three Broomsticks shortly before Katie came out of the bathroom. Also, Malfoy mentions to Snape in...The Unbreakable Vow, I think, that he has better friends than Crabbe and Goyle helping him. He may have meant his aunt, but I got the impression he was talking about fellow students.

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Mrs. D. - Jul 27, 2005 3:51 pm (#355 of 473)
I was looking around for new pics from the GoF movie and ran across a site that asked people to send donations to "Demelza's House" rather than send Dan Radcliffe presents at his birthday and Christmas. Do you think that was a nod to him by including a character of that name on the Gryffindor team?

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Puck - Jul 27, 2005 6:36 pm (#356 of 473)
Soltaire, interesting thought about Snape being set up, but looking at the private conversation between Bella and Cissy on the way to Spinner's End, I don't think so. They would not have been arguing if they were in on it together. Narcissa is clearly worried about Draco, as seen in Diagon Alley.

Draco could not have been using the vanishing cabinet to get back and forth to London, then apparating back to Hogsmead. The cabinet wasn't fixed until the night DD was killed. Draco will be punished by LV, though not killed. He will be seen as weak, like wormtail.

In his conversation with DD Malfoy admits Rosmerita was under the Imperius curse and slipped Katie the necklace, but does not confirm Katie was put under the curse as well. But, the text and characters make this assumption, so I am going to stick with the idea that she was.

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Solitaire - Jul 27, 2005 8:34 pm (#357 of 473)
About that broken vanishing cabinet ... remember that Montague was able to apparate out of it, even though he'd not passed his test. So it is quite possible that Draco was able to apparate out of it, as well.

Solitaire

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 27, 2005 9:28 pm (#358 of 473)
"About that broken vanishing cabinet ... remember that Montague was able to apparate out of it, even though he'd not passed his test." Very interesting observation considering that the Vanishing Cabinet was IN Hogwarts when the twins stuffed Montague into it. We all know it is impossible to apparate into or out of Hogwarts, with the exception of when Dumbledore lifted the spell for precisely one hour for Apperation lessons. I wonder if Apperation lessons were the same time, every year? Remember Harry and Ron's attitude about Montague disappearing and his whereabouts, was unimportant to them. As Hermonie pointed out to them, they should care... JKR pointing us towards and away from an important clue.

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Solitaire - Jul 27, 2005 10:34 pm (#359 of 473)
I wondered about that, Twinkles, when Draco said it. But he did say it ... and now we have intruders entering Hogwarts. And I thought it would be the secret underground passages that permitted intrusion to Hogwarts ... Alas, earwax!

Solitaire

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Puck - Jul 28, 2005 9:50 am (#360 of 473)
I wonder when and how such an object came to the school in the first place? It like was broken on purpose, just to prevent that very sort of thing.

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Weeny Owl - Jul 28, 2005 2:27 pm (#361 of 473)
I don't know if anyone else said it, but I mentioned that I thought Blaise was involved in the whole thing with Rosmerta and Katie and the Imperius Curse. Draco said he had better people than Crabbe and Goyle helping him, and while he might have meant non-students, with Blaise hanging around The Three Broomsticks while Draco was in detention, it made me think Blaise was involved. I also think Blaise is a Death Eater now.

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Thom Matheson - Jul 28, 2005 4:16 pm (#362 of 473)
Another general discussion. If the diary was a Horcrux, and in order to split a soul you have to kill, did the 17 year old Tom Riddle kill someone while at Hogworts in order to perform the ritual? Or did he create the horcrux after leaving the school? To me a diary is a current recollection of events and thoughts. I am curious to know what you all think here. Logic says that he created it after his time at the school and planted it later with Malfoy's help, but it is still a recollection of his 7th year.

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Choices - Jul 28, 2005 4:43 pm (#363 of 473)
It was probably when he killed his father and grandparents right after leaving school. He could have created the diary in his last year and then did the killing and turned it into a horcrux.

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Madam Pince - Jul 28, 2005 5:54 pm (#364 of 473)
I wonder if Moaning Myrtle counted as one of Tom Riddle's "kills." Technically it was the basilisk, but perhaps because he set it all in motion? Probably not, but just a thought.

Little change of topic here, but -- I read in a magazine article that one of the things we were promised by JKR to get in HBP was "something huge about Lily." Does anyone know offhand -- did she really say we'd get that tidbit in Book 6 specifically, or just in the future sometime? Because I don't remember reading anything "huge" about Lily in HBP...

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Thom Matheson - Jul 28, 2005 6:08 pm (#365 of 473)
Thanks Choices, that is much more plausible for me then just another Voldy-Murder. I so forgot about Mertle.

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Solitaire - Jul 28, 2005 7:43 pm (#366 of 473)
I've wondered whether Myrtle's death could be considered one of Voldemort's "kills," as well, Madam P. After all, he is the one who set the Basilisk on the Muggle-borns. Also, I remember reading that we would learn something "huge" about Lily in HBP, too. Now, it may be that her prowess in potions will turn out to be huge. However, I thought we would realize it was huge when we learned it ... if that makes sense.

Solitaire

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Emily - Jul 29, 2005 7:17 am (#367 of 473)
Could the fact that all of a sudden she turns out to be brilliant at potions be the 'huge thing' we found out about Lily? Maybe that has a big effect in Book 7.

Madam Pince, what magazine was that interview in? Maybe I'll go try to find it on Quick Quotes.

Edit: Couldn't find it, but while I was searching I came upon this interview from 1999 (JKR was working on GoF)

What about Snape? JKR: Snape is a very sadistic teacher, loosely based on a teacher I myself had, I have to say. I think children are very aware and we are kidding ourselves if we don?t think that they are, that teachers do sometimes abuse their power and this particular teacher does abuse his power. He?s not a particularly pleasant person at all. However, everyone should keep their eye on Snape, I?ll just say that because there is more to him than meets the eye and you will find out part of what I am talking about if you read Book 4. No, I?m not trying to drum up more sales, go to the library and get it out. I?d rather people read it.

One of our internet correspondents wondered if Snape is going to fall in love. JKR: (JKR laughs) Who on earth would want Snape in love with them? That?s a very horrible idea.

There?s an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape JKR: He, um, there?s so much I wish I could say to you, and I can?t because it would ruin. I promise you, whoever asked that question, can I just say to you that I?m slightly stunned that you?ve said that and you?ll find out why I?m so stunned if you read Book 7. That?s all I?m going to say.

This is encouraging.

All right, yes I'm changing the topic. I'm sure this has been brought up before, but my main point is, JKR is 'stunned' that someone sees a redemptive pattern in Snape. I'm inclined to think this could be good! She also says we should keep our eye on him, obviously what we're doing. Sorry for changing the topic!

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Choices - Jul 29, 2005 8:37 am (#368 of 473)
I would think that to "split" ones soul, the murder would have to be more "hands on". I think Voldemort can count Myrtle among his victims, but I don't think it was personal enough to be able to split his soul for another horcrux.

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Solitaire - Jul 29, 2005 2:54 pm (#369 of 473)
Choices, that kind of goes along with what I've been thinking ... that the murder must be more specific and deliberate.

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Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 29, 2005 3:57 pm (#370 of 473)
I'm guessing the diary Horcrux was created when Voldemort killed the Riddles. He likes to make them with significant deaths.

Perhaps what we learned about Lily was that she was the favorite of the Head of Slytherin, Slughorn. I don't think Snape and other Slytherins would like that very much. It does show she has a connection to Slytherin. LPO

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Saralinda Again - Jul 29, 2005 4:51 pm (#371 of 473)
I thought perhaps the black Slytherin ring might be from that bunch of murders ...

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Magnus " The Fearless" Bagman - Jul 29, 2005 6:04 pm (#372 of 473)
It didn't specifically say that Lily was Slughorn's favorite, but one of them.

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Weeny Owl - Jul 30, 2005 5:49 am (#373 of 473)
He could have created the diary in his last year and then did the killing and turned it into a horcrux.

I agree with that except that I think it was his sixth year. In CoS he said he left behind a diary preserving his sixteen-year-old self in the pages.

I think you're right, Choices, that the diary being created is totally separate from the Horcrux being created. He created the diary initially to open the Chamber of Secrets again, but later, when he started making Horcruxes, he decided that the diary would be perfect for one.

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The Dark Mark - Jul 30, 2005 7:43 pm (#374 of 473)
An off topic Question.

AD was the secret keeper for the order. My understanding of the Fidelius charm is that the secrete has to be kept in a single living soul. Now that AD is dead how safe is #12 Grimmauld place?

Speaking of secrete keepers, how is Harry going to find his parents house in Godrics Hollow? PP was the secrete keeper and I don't recall him telling Harry the address.

If the Questions have already been answered, sorry I'm a little behind in my reading.

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Ydnam96 - Jul 30, 2005 8:58 pm (#375 of 473)
The Dark Mark: these are good questions. I don't recall us having come to a conclusion about these...although I think we might have talked about it in regards to Godric's Hollow. But now with the Order and all that it's bound to become quite an issue.

I wonder if the secret dies with them...like unless DD left it in writing no one new would be able to find it. Everyone who already knows where it is can find it (which is why Hagrid, DD, and Sirius were able to find the house in Godric's Hollow- although Peter didn't die...but they thought he was dead and I think if they weren't able to find the house they would have asked a lot of questions).

So if DD left a note somewhere saying where the Order was, the members could use that note to show anyone new they wanted to know. But my guess is that all the people who need to know already do.

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Wisey - Jul 31, 2005 2:48 am (#376 of 473)
Uncertain about this but I believe an enemy could look in the window and be unable to see you if you are protected by the Fidelius Charm?

I am quite certain, however, that Dumbledore would've been well prepared for his death (or staged death)with instructions in his will for the OoP. My thoughts, Harry may inherit the job of Secret Keeper just as he has inherited 12GP.

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Madame Librarian - Jul 31, 2005 7:22 am (#377 of 473)
Wisey, I agree. In the "Order of the Phoenix--What Happens Now?" thread, I quoted DD as he spoke to Harry in PS/SS (ch. 17): "...to the well-organized mind, death is but the next great adventure...."

I believe DD is very well-organized and has planned for this contingency. Somehow the Secret Keeper information will be available to the Order and/or to Harry. Even Sirius had a will, after all, and he was not a guy who imagined such a quick and final outcome.

Ciao. Barb

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Choices - Jul 31, 2005 7:52 am (#378 of 473)
I don't think it matters now how safe Grimmauld Place is since the Order have moved out of it. However, since it has been established that Harry has inherited it, the Order may very well move back in as Harry has given permission for them to continue to use it as headquarters. I think a new secret keeper will be chosen and Grimmauld Place will again be secure from discovery.

I also think that as Harry's parents are dead, there is no longer a need for their house to be protected by the Fidelius Charm. I think that as the subjects of the charm, when they died, so did the charm.

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rassannassar - Jul 31, 2005 11:25 am (#379 of 473)
Today is Harry's Birthday, it should be a global holiday.

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Choices - Jul 31, 2005 4:18 pm (#380 of 473)
You mean it isn't. I'm shocked!!! LOL It surely is at my house.

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James Greenfield - Aug 1, 2005 1:05 am (#381 of 473)
A change of subject, again.

Re: the discrepancy in the stories of the prophecy, as told by Dumbledore and by Trelawney. How about this: Snape gets to the door when Sybil is almost through telling the prophecy, so he only hears the very LAST part, which is, of course, a repeat of the very FIRST part. Then he is apprehended by Aberforth (the barman) and Sybil comes out of her trance. So, both Dumbledore and Trelawney are right, and Snape can only report to Voldemort about "one who can defeat him being about to be born at the end of July".

Have I solved it, or is it a Flint?

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Puck - Aug 1, 2005 9:42 am (#382 of 473)
Well, James, this makes partial sense, but she doesn't repeat the part about the parents thrice defying the Dark Lord, which is what narrowed down his choices (otherwise all children born at the end of July that year would have been slain.) I think it may have been he heard the first part, but the barman caught him and the scuffle prevented him from hearing the rest. The struggle ended as Snape and Alberforth entered the room, by which time Trelawny was coming out of her trance.

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Dame Peverell - Aug 6, 2005 5:13 pm (#383 of 473)
Well, I finished HBP and am all torqued up again for the next book.

I would like to circulate a petition asking JKR to hire a nanny and a maid so that she can devote herself to taking care of the all the rest of her children for five hours a day, five days a week starting ASAP!

Anybody with me on this? How do we do that?

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Choices - Aug 7, 2005 9:32 am (#384 of 473)
I would also like for her to stay out of the subway, off buses, no air travel and limited car trips. In other words, stay safely at home, and write, write, write. LOL

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deletedaccount - Aug 7, 2005 11:25 am (#385 of 473)
That would be awful if she were to die before writing the last book. It would be awful for her to die anyway, but even before the last book, leaving the world in a literary limbo.

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Essidji - Aug 8, 2005 8:38 am (#386 of 473)
I am astounded to read you guys having written this : I was watching the news over the weekend, and particularly this accident involving a plane in Toronto, and I had exactly the same thought. As JKR is the only one to know how the story ends, it would be such an awful thing if life prevented her from writing everything!

But afterwards I had another thought : if I were her editor, I believe I would have taken all the warranties I could... the risk is too important. I think I would have liked her to sign a paper saying I could have access to her notes in case of an accident.

Oh what a horrible thought anyway : nobody could write book seven with as much talent as JKR proved us she has!

Please, Jo, take care of yourself, and don't stop writing after Harry's saga. You made me discover Eenglish litterature and eemproove a lot. I read an interview lately, from 1998, in which you said you always had plenty of ideas for new stories, so I want you to know I'll always be a fan of your style and your ability to write spellbinding books!

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Valfunde - Aug 8, 2005 10:18 am (#387 of 473)
Oh, my goodness! I thought the same thing about JKR and if she were to die before she writes Book 7 how AWFUL it would be. (Well, I wouldn't want her to die after book 7 either!) PLEASE JKR - stay alive!! I bet that she has formal/legal instructions in her will as to what would happen if she untimely passed away - like instructions to her family & editor to have certain notes, outlines, etc. on what she's written so far concerning Book 7, so at least we could find out the BIG UNANSWERED QUESTIONS of the series and how it's all supposed to end and what that darn last sentence is that ends with "scar"! If not, PLEASE JKR, do this! Gosh, I hate thinking about something so terrible. Let's stop and move on to something else!

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joey - Aug 9, 2005 12:34 pm (#388 of 473)
Does anyone have any theories about the Bloody Baron and his connection to Slytherin? There's many instances throught the books where the question pops up about the silvery blood staining his front, and why Peeves is so afraid of him, and only him. The silvery blood reminded me of unicorn blood, but it could also just be that he's a ghost. I don't know...the whole thing seems kind of odd. Do we know how Peeves died? Maybe the Bloody Baron is the one who killed him and the blood is actually Peeves'...?

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joey - Aug 9, 2005 12:38 pm (#389 of 473)
Oh the prophecy...What if Snape did hear the entire prophecy. Maybe one of the reasons DD trusts him so much is because he knows Snape heard the entire thing, but only told LV the first half of it.

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Steve Newton - Aug 9, 2005 12:55 pm (#390 of 473)
joey, Peeves did not die. He is a poltergeist, not a ghost. In a recent interview JKR likened him to mold, if I recall correctly. Moldlike in that once he gets into a house there's not getting him out.

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joey - Aug 9, 2005 1:11 pm (#391 of 473)


pol¡ter¡geist - a ghost that manifests itself by noises, rappings, and the creation of disorder.

[German : poltern, to make noises (from Middle High German boldern) + Geist, ghost (from Middle High German, from Old High German).]

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Steve Newton - Aug 9, 2005 2:29 pm (#392 of 473)
Nice definition. JKR disagrees.

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joey - Aug 9, 2005 3:18 pm (#393 of 473)
Steve Newton...I'm not trying to be confrontational or anything, just trying to understand. I don't know that JKR said specifically that Peeves never died, and that he was not a ghost. If she said he was a poltergeist, well, a poltergeist is a ghost. I don't see how likening him to mold means he's not a ghost either. Might you point me in the direction of the interview...?

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Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 9, 2005 3:28 pm (#394 of 473)
Joey this comes from J.K. Rowling's website.

Peeves isn't a ghost; he was never a living person. He is an indestructible spirit of chaos, and solid enough to unscrew chandeliers, throw walking sticks and, yes, chew gum.

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joey - Aug 9, 2005 3:32 pm (#395 of 473)
Nathan Zimmerman...Thank you!! I am still curious to know why he/it fears the Bloody Baron...even more so now.

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Emily - Aug 9, 2005 4:34 pm (#396 of 473)
I believe a poltergeist is traditionally a spirit that exists in a place filled with chaos, trauma, etc, and especially teenagers. I'm not sure I'm explaining this how I want to. A poltergeist might be accused of randomly throwing things, upsetting people, generally being mischevious. It was a very nice touch to have one in a magical school filled with so many teenagers! I had never heard your definition, joey, I thought JKR had the right (and only) one! See, I can learn things like this even over the summer, and I find just small differences like this fascinating, how one person might take something for granted. I never really questioned when Sir Nicholas said Peeves wasn't really a ghost and when he was able to interact with the physical world.

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joey - Aug 9, 2005 4:50 pm (#397 of 473)
Well, as far as the paranormal goes, there's many conflicting ideas. To me, a poltergeist has always been an angry ghost that still has some connection to the mortal dimension, which is how they wreak havoc. It is true, but there are other truths, semantics, and all that. How can anyone really know anyway, it is the paranormal after all. If JKR says Peeves is a poltergeist and was never alive, then Peeves is a Poltergeist and was never alive...it's her character and her truth.

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Steve Newton - Aug 9, 2005 7:54 pm (#398 of 473)
I wasn't trying to be confrontational either. I used a similar definition a while back and couldn't remember where the JKR quotation that shot me down came from.

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Susan Bones - Aug 17, 2005 9:55 pm (#399 of 473)
Going back a couple of weeks (I'm very behind in my thread reading), there was some discussion of the Riddle murders being used to make an early (or the first) Horcrux, either the diary or the black ring. I just finished re-reading the chapter in which Harry sees the first, altered, version of Slughorn's memory. Voldemort/Tom is just apparently learning about Horcruxes from Slughorn, so presumably has not made any yet. Harry notes that Voldemort is wearing the black ring, so he has already killed the Riddles. It seems he couldn't have used those murders to create Horcruxes.

Splinching, by the way, is most unpleasant.

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joey - Aug 18, 2005 5:11 am (#400 of 473)
Tom obviously already knew about Horocruxes when he was talking to Slughorn, but he wasn't supposed to so he had to act like he didn't. What he was really after was information about creating more than one. Supposedly, the diary was the first...so it could have been created before talking to Slughorn.

We still don't know how they're created, other than killing and an incantation. But we don't know if it has to actually be by his hand, or whether something like the killing of Moaning Myrtle on his orders, while he's also present, would apply. I assumed by the route their conversation took, and since he had the ring already, it sort of implied that it preceeded the creation of the second Horocrux.

I had also assumed that since the memories in the Diary were about the Chamber of Secrets and the soul contained had posessed Ginny to open the Chamber, it was created when teh Chamber had been opened the first time around. But my understanding of the timeline could be all screwy since I've been bouncing from book to book over the past few weeks.

[Julia H.]

Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince Book Read Along (Chapter by Chapter Discussions Folder - General Discussion - Posts 401-450)

Choices - Aug 18, 2005 10:40 am (#401 of 473)
It would certainly be helpful to know more about the creation of a horcrux. Could Tom have created the diary and then later added the piece of his soul after he killed his father and grandparents? Or could he have killed them (or someone else) and his soul split and he later put it into the diary or the ring? I guess my question is....how soon after the soul is split as a result of murdering someone, does that piece of soul have to be put into a horcrux? Does it have to happen immediately or can there be a time lapse of weeks or months before the horcrux is created?

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joey - Aug 18, 2005 11:42 am (#402 of 473)
I was under the impression it had to be immediate. I was also under the impression that he used the killing of his father to create the Ring Horcrux. Didn't he find out his father lived right down the road when he found Morfin and the Ring? I thought he went back, got the Ring, killed his father, made the Horcrux, changed Morfin's memory.

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Choices - Aug 18, 2005 4:34 pm (#403 of 473)
You are correct joey - he killed his father and his grandparents at the same time. I wonder if that is considered one killing - thus one split of his soul - or is it three killings and three splits? Gosh, so much we don't know and have to wonder about.

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Accio Book Seven - Aug 19, 2005 12:50 pm (#404 of 473)
I don't think that your soul splits every time you kill someone, because it's all still in you. It's not like every time you kill someone part of your soul escapes, it's all still in you, you're still mortal. The incantation splits your soul, not the murder. It's just that you need to kill someone to create the neccessary conditions to split your soul.

So maybe it has to be done right after the murder, or maybe if you kill somebody and think about what you've done a lot, you can do the incantation later... we just don't know yet, and until we discover another clue in the book, we might just have to assume that JKR has set everything straight and we'll know eventually.

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my athena - Aug 20, 2005 10:10 am (#405 of 473)
Hi, I posted this on another thread but only got on response. Is anyone else's book 6 bound wrong? My copy, 1st us edition, purchased in new england, is bound upside down and backwards compared with the cover?? anyone?

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Saralinda Again - Aug 20, 2005 4:58 pm (#406 of 473)
You're the only one so far to write about it, and I'm sure someone else would have noticed it.

Seriously, first editions will be useless with this series because there were so many copies in the first run, but your reversed copy may be valuable some day. Hang on to it!

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siliconsmiley - Aug 24, 2005 5:03 am (#407 of 473)
joey -- I was not under the impression that the ring was a horcrux while he was wearing it in Slughorn's memory. Dumbledore found the ring hidden in the Gaunt's house, didn't he?

As for the diary, I believe that he made it a horcrux at some point after he orginially created it. The other artifacts that he used were turned into horcrux well after their original creation.

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joey - Aug 24, 2005 6:45 am (#408 of 473)
siliconsmiley...I didn't mean that the Ring was already a Horocrux during Tom's discussion with Slughorn. What I was getting at was that I think Tom already knew about Horcrux's and had actually already made the first one...the Diary. As the memory shows, Tom was the most interested in getting information about making more than one Horcrux...in his insane quest for immortality. He now has this significant Ring and he wants to know if he can use it to make another Horocux. And yes, like all the others, he hid the Ring in a significant place afterwards.

I don't understand what you mean here either...As for the diary, I believe that he made it a horcrux at some point after he orginially created it. The other artifacts that he used were turned into horcrux well after their original creation.

I don't understand what you mean by "after their original creation"...their creation as what?

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Saralinda Again - Aug 24, 2005 7:13 am (#409 of 473)
I think (I may be wrong) that siliconsmiley means that first Tom created the interactive diary -- perhaps as an ego boost or a primitive form of lunging toward immortality -- and only later did he acquire the knowledge to make it a Horcrux.

(And I'm still hoping to learn what or who first taught LV about the very existence of Horcruxes.)

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joey - Aug 24, 2005 10:34 am (#410 of 473)
Ok that makes sense. I guess I can only see that working for the Diary though since it's the interactive object...he could have used it as a memory-keeper and then made it into a Horcrux. But for the other objects, what else would he have done to them, or used them as, first? But as he was finding and collecting them, we see him looking less and less human so don't we know he's already been splitting his soul and making Horcruxes?

We know LV killed his father while he was still young and after he found out about the Ring. Isn't it pretty widely believed he made the Ring Horcrux with his father/grandparents death? As I said, I don't have my book with me, but isn't DD under this assumption as well? I really wish I did have my book because I can't remember which happened first, opening the Chamber or killing his father.

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cannet - Aug 24, 2005 11:35 am (#411 of 473)
The whole order of events of when the horcruxes were probably created has been bothering me - too many details seemingly explained out of order. So I checked the Lexicon Timeline for some help. According to the timeline:

(http://www.hp-lexicon.org/timelines/main/timeline_1900-1950.html)

1. Myrtle died at the end of LV's 5th year (he was a prefect in the 5th year). I would think that this death was not actually a murder, since it seemed like an accident that Myrtle looked into the eyes of the basilisk. I don't remember TR actually planning on murdering Myrtle specifically. Does anyone know if this was a deliberate murder? (Isn't a deliberate murder a requirement for creating a horcrux?)

2. LV went to the Gaunt house during the summer after his 5th year, killed his father/grandparents, took the ring, and framed Uncle Morfin. I think that LV creating a horcrux before he starts his 6th year is plausible, since he has the ring when he talks to Slughorn, and he is interested in making more horcruxes, which hints at the fact that he has already made one horcrux.

3. LV asked Slughorn about splitting the soul more than once in the Fall of his 6th year. LV turned the diary into a horcrux after this talk. Now, if this is the case, what deliberate murder would help him turn the diary into a horcrux? Could he use his grandparents' murder after the fact? (I assumed that the horcrux was created immediately after a murder, as per Slughorn's explanation, but I may have missed something.)

I may be the only one who was just lost in the facts, but this info. helps me put things in perspective. Can anyone shed more light on the order of the creation of the horcruxes?

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Helen Lehman - Aug 25, 2005 12:03 am (#412 of 473)
Tom Riddle (from the diary)tells Harry that he put part of his soul into Ginny. I'm refering to events in Chamber of Secrets. Is Ginny a Horcrux then? Poor Harry! Will he have to kill the girl he loves? Helen Lehman.

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my athena - Aug 25, 2005 8:37 am (#413 of 473)
I think that LV accidentally created the ring horcrux when he murdered his father. Then went to Slughorn and asked about them. This would explain how he found out about them in the first place. He would have wanted to know if it was possible to create more than one. That is the important point. Anyone could create one horcrux. But as he tells DD in HBP he has stretched magic further than anyone has before. He created the diary with specific intent, and with previous knowledge(the ring.)

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my athena - Aug 25, 2005 8:40 am (#414 of 473)
Helen, The other objects have all been cursed and have created distruction to those who disturb them. I don't think ginny could be a horcrux, the curse would kill her. I don't think a horcrux could inhabit something living.. If the snake is a horcrux, then it would have to be an inferi. Just a thought??

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my athena - Aug 25, 2005 8:44 am (#415 of 473)
Joey this is a good point. we do see LV getting more and more pale and sickly. When LV is in Slughorns office harry notes that he looks pale. Thus one could assume that a horcrux has already been made.

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Esther Rose - Aug 25, 2005 8:54 am (#416 of 473)
I doubt it. As Dumbledore mentioned once Voldemort creates a Horcrux he tends to discard them. Once the ring has been Horcurxed I would think he would no longer be wearing it. Tom wearing the ring would indicate that it has not been Horcruxed yet. imo.

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Choices - Aug 25, 2005 10:09 am (#417 of 473)
I think when Harry destroyed the diary (and thus Tom Riddle, the memory), he caused the soul that had been going into Ginny and becoming stronger, to go back into Tom and it was destroyed with memory Tom. Ginny was dying there for a while and Tom was growing stronger, but then Harry reversed that process by stabbing the diary with the basalisk tooth - Ginny came back and memory Tom was destroyed.

I don't agree that Tom created the ring horcrux accidentally. That is not something that can just happen. I think it must be consciously done. A murder must be committed, the soul splits and then an incantation must be said to cause the piece of soul to enter the object in which it is to be hidden. It is not an accidental process. Somehow Tom learned how to make the first horcrux and then wished information from Slughorn about the possibility of making others. Obviously uncharted territory, given Slughorn's horrified reaction to Tom's question about making seven horcruxes.

I definitely think a living person or creature could be a horcrux. Each person has a soul living inside them, so why wouldn't it be possible to hide a piece of soul in someone or something? Nagini shows no signs of being dead - she is not described in a way that would make us think she is has been reanimated. I do not know if animals have souls like humans do, but they are living creatures and I would think it would be possible to put a piece of soul in a snake or a cat, etc. If Nagini is being milked for her venom to feed Voldemort, I would say she is alive. I doubt a dead snake could produce venom. We do not even know if animals can be made into Inferi. We have only heard the definition of an Inferius as it applies to human corpses.

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siliconsmiley - Aug 26, 2005 11:22 am (#418 of 473)
Edited by Aug 26, 2005 12:24 pm
I'm assuming that most people agree with Dumbledore that Riddle was most interested in learning about multiple horcruxes from Slughorn. I'm not sure I entirely agree with that. Before he asks about multiple horcruxes, he asks about how to create them three times. Slughorn reveals that it requires a murder and an incantation, but that he does not know the incantation. Riddle then moves on to ask about creating multiple horcruxes.

I do agree with Dumbledore later (I know I'm on both sides of the fence here) when he tells Harry that he thinks Riddle would not have wanted to continue wearing the ring once he has made it a horcrux. So I am fairly confident that he did not use the Riddle's murders to make the ring a horcrux.

I think it was in the years that he disappeared that he finally learned everything he needed in order to create a horcrux. I think there is some evidence to support this in the description of how he looked in Dumbledore's memory when he returned to Hogwarts to apply for a job. He was not described this way in Slughorn's memory.

I know there are some holes in this theory. Dumbledore said something about Voldemort using significant deaths to create a horcrux. I can definitely see how his first murder (Myrtle) and the murder of his father and their family would be very significant deaths. And I would certainly agree that these were indeed used to create the diary and the ring horcrux, if it weren't for the fact that Tom was wearing the ring in Slughorn's memory.

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Merlin's Beard - Sep 2, 2005 6:08 am (#419 of 473)
Now, call me crazy but... WHAT IF GINNY WEASLEY IS A HORCRUX?!?! Really, think about it. Not only would it add HUGE plot drama, it makes sense too. If Riddle spent so long "pouring his soul into hers", (note the "soul") then she could be a Horcrux! Give you thoughts.

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Esther Rose - Sep 2, 2005 7:28 am (#420 of 473)
If Ginny *was* a horcrux then the horcrux within Ginny would have been destroyed because Harry destroyed the Diary. (home of the original horcrux.)

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Choices - Sep 2, 2005 9:01 am (#421 of 473)
I think Tom's soul was going into Ginny, but I also think that when Harry stabbed the diary with the basalisk fang and destroyed memory Tom, that the bit of soul that had gone into Ginny came back to Tom and died with him. Dumbledore did count the diary horcrux as having been destroyed.

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Weeny Owl - Sep 2, 2005 9:35 am (#422 of 473)
JKR already said that that bit of soul was destroyed when the diary was destroyed, so it would be the diary that was the Horcrux and not Ginny.

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KTO - Sep 2, 2005 10:26 am (#423 of 473)
I agree that if the ring was a HC then LV would not have worn it, I think that in order to maintain his existence (consciously not using the word life) he would want to make sure pieces of his soul were scattered so they could not be destroyed all at once,

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joey - Sep 3, 2005 9:02 am (#424 of 473)
It seemed to me that after he started to interact with Ginny, instead of putting his soul into her, he started taking her soul, lifeforce, whatever into him. So I can't see how she would be a Horcrux. But it was destroyed anyway so that piece of his soul was destroyed as well.

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mabel - Sep 5, 2005 3:15 pm (#425 of 473)
About Ginny being a horcrux, no. I do however think that Ginny may be key to destroying Dumbledore. JKR stated that Ginny's birth was significant, she was the 7th child, the first girl after 7 generations of male Weasleys. It is shown that she is gifted, to me she seems more naturally gifted even than Harry. Dumbledore also talks about love is needed to defeat LV. Will it be Harry finally realizing that instead of sending his "love" away, that she will be needed to work with him to destroy LV some how. Seems a bit mushy but plausible.

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Potter Ace - Sep 6, 2005 10:20 am (#426 of 473)
Mabel,

Your idea of Ginny & Harry working together to destroy LV is something that I have not read on any thread but at first glance it would seem very plausible.

The prophecy only mentions that each could not survive with the other, it does not prohibit outside help (that I recall).

I know that they are very young but perhaps they get married and the "love" created in that bond is the extra boost that Harry needs.

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deletedaccount - Sep 6, 2005 1:01 pm (#427 of 473)
Had the memory/horcrux suceeded and came to life and Ginny had died, and the vapor Voldemort didn't know and got himself a body, could there have ended up being 2 Voldemorts instead of one?

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mabel - Sep 6, 2005 3:34 pm (#428 of 473)
I have been thinking about that theory for some time for two reasons. One, Dumbledore stresses the power of love. Two, in the interview after HBP, JKR talks about Ginny's birth and the significance and power of the number 7. I don't think that Ginny and Harry will get married, I just think that given what DD had said about the importance in love, maybe it will unfold that by sending Ginny away, Harry may be sending away what can help him. What I am hoping in #7 is that Harry will return to Hogwarts and start learning more magic, it doesn't seem like he knows enough yet to defeat Voldemort.

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siliconsmiley - Sep 7, 2005 10:58 am (#429 of 473)
Edited by Sep 7, 2005 11:59 am
I don't think Harry will ever know enough magic to defeat Voldemort. Both Harry and Snape had similar things to say in their stints as DADA teachers. DADA is not about knowing some particular bit of magic to save you. DADA is about being quick-witted and courageous in the face of certain death.

Harry knows what needs to be done to make Voldemort mortal again. Find and destroy the horcruxes. As far as finally destroying Voldemort, there will be some kind of twist. Harry won't kill him. He won't kill anybody.

I still think it will be the dementors. It would serve him right. Poetic just to have his soul sucked out after he did so much to protect it from death.

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Soul Mate for Sirius - Sep 7, 2005 11:05 am (#430 of 473)
I like the idea of the Dementors sucking out LV's soul in the end. From the first time I read OotP I was upset at the thought that Harry would have to kill anyone, even if it was LV. But if the Dementors suck out LV's soul, Harry won't have to and, as siliconsmiley says, it would be poetic justice. LV would get what he wants in the end, to live forever, just without the soul he ripped apart to get there. I love it!!

-Jenn

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deletedaccount - Sep 7, 2005 4:39 pm (#431 of 473)
If he doesn't have his soul, could he still harm others though?

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mabel - Sep 7, 2005 5:08 pm (#432 of 473)
I still wonder about Peter Pettigrew. Will he finally get an ounce of a backbone and somehow help in Voldemort's destruction, perhaps it would be done somehow with the hand Voldemort created? If for no other reason than he is indebted to Harry who saved his life? My other thought was that the hand was a horcrux and that was why Snape was ordered to keep Pettigrew hidden away, seemingly against PP's will. The hand needed to be kept safe.

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siliconsmiley - Sep 8, 2005 7:17 am (#433 of 473)
I think once you get your soul sucked out by a dementor, you are basically a vegetable until your body dies.

It seems both Pettigrew and Snape may have a debt yet to be repaid to Harry. I'm not sure what to make of Harry's actions after Snape killed Dumbledore. He didn't seem interested in showing Snape the same mercy that he showed Pettigrew. Although, there were other factors involved when he spared Pettigrew's life. He saw the opportunity to clear Sirius' name and punish Pettigrew with a life time stint in Azkaban.

I just don't think Harry has enough hate in him to actually kill somebody. He seemed horrified by what he had done to Draco with sectumsempra.

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mabel - Sep 8, 2005 8:17 am (#434 of 473)
Here's the thing with Harry killing someone, I do think it is plausible that he would kill LV. It is different then the situation with Draco, while he wanted to protect himself, he had no intention of hurting Draco to the extent that he did. With LV, it is different, it is not a fellow human being, but an evil that if not destroyed will continue to harm. He is very angry with Snape, and while he would like to have seen him harmed after what was done to Dumbledore, I agree that Harry does not want to kill Snape. That was why the curses did not work. I think he was much more forgiving of PP in Azkaban because he had a group of friends and adults that supported and loved him when he learned the true story of what PP did. However, when he encounters Snape after DD's murder, he is alone and enraged, and he has just witnessed the murder take place. It was a violent scene, and I believe Harry reacted like many of us would, more instinctive, without the forethought of the consequences of his actions.

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Soul Mate for Sirius - Sep 8, 2005 8:27 am (#435 of 473)
mabel, I agree with you that there was a reason for Harry's different reactions to Snape and Peter, and I agree with the reasons you mentioned. On the other hand, I really don't believe Harry would have it in him to kill anyone, even LV. I understand what you're saying about LV being seen not as a human, but as an evil that must be destroyed, but I don't think Harry will be able to seperate those two things. Harry has seen first hand what LV was as a child. He's seen Tom Riddle, and knows his story and everything that happened to him. He's seen Riddle's transformation into LV through the Pensive and the Diary. I think that because he's seen what LV was, he will never be able to see LV only as "an evil to be destroyed" I think Harry is too much like DD in that he won't feel it neccessary to kill LV. This is why I like the idea of LV having his soul sucked out by the Dementors. I think that would be the ultimate punishment and torture for LV. To show him that what DD said to him in the MoM was true, there are some things worse than dieing.

I think that especially after Harry's lessons with DD about Horcruxes, and knowing that killing someone rips the soul apart, Harry will be hesitant to kill anyone.

-Jenn

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Potter Ace - Sep 8, 2005 8:52 am (#436 of 473)
Soul Mate,

I have to agree with Mabel, Harry will be able to seperate LV the human and LV the evil monster. The need to end the misery of people that he knows and loves (my guess is that there will be even more people that Harry knows tortured/killed by LV in book 7) will outweight any feelings that would cause hesitation.

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mabel - Sep 8, 2005 11:49 am (#437 of 473)
Soul Mate, I see your point about Harry seeing LV as a human but I disagree. What Harry saw in the penseive was the dehumanization of Riddle and the transformation into LV, an evil entity. Therefore, I do believe that his destruction is essential to stopping the spread of evil. I don't really like the dementors doing it for Harry, because it seems like Harry's purpose is to be the one responsible for LV's destruction. I wouldn't mind seeing PP or Snape doing it to somehow save Harry. Another interesting plot would be for Lucius Malfoy to sacrifice himself to free Draco from Voldemort's grasp. Lucius' absence was missed from this book, he and Draco are the bad guys I love to hate in this series.

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Soul Mate for Sirius - Sep 8, 2005 6:46 pm (#438 of 473)
Mabel and Potter Ace, I see your points. I guess it's just hard for me to imagine Harry killing anyone. Especially now that we know about Horcruxes and soul splitting.

On one hand, I do agree with you Mabel when you say that LV must destroyed in order for evil to stop. I just hope Harry doesn't have to actually do the killing. I like your idea of Snape or PP killing LV to save Harry. I also like the idea of Snape sacrificing himself for Harry.

I understand how Harry could seperate LV from Riddle, and I know I certainly can with no problem, but I think that maybe DD had a reason for showing Harry all those memories besides just learning about Horcruxes. DD thinks there are things worse then death, and part of me likes/wants to believe he was trying to humanize LV in Harry's mind so that when the final confrontation came, Harry wouldn't be so quick to just kill LV, but maybe just to "vanquish" him (thus my liking for the Dementor theory)

That's just my 2 knuts, and you are more then welcome to continue telling me why you disagree. (I'm actually looking forward to it!! )

-Jenn

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siliconsmiley - Sep 9, 2005 6:35 am (#439 of 473)
Edited by Sep 9, 2005 7:36 am
As evil as Voldemort is, Harry still pitied him. His amazing power of love seems to know no bounds. When he learned that Merope did nothing to save her own life, Harry felt sorry for him. The man that murdered his parents. The darkest wizard of all times and Harry still felt for him.

I just can't see JKR writing this entire series about the struggle between good and evil and having the hero murder somebody in the end. Voldemort's own actions must lead to his undoing.

Or maybe Grawp will eat him. Mmm, snake meat. Good boy Grawpy.

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Choices - Sep 9, 2005 8:17 am (#440 of 473)
I still like the idea of doing a memory modification on Voldemort and sending him back in time to about the Middle Ages. He won't know who he is and he'll just live out his remaining days there - not existing at the same time as Harry.

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Esther Rose - Sep 9, 2005 8:24 am (#441 of 473)
I don't know if I like the idea of sending Voldemort into the past so that he can change the wizarding future. ;-) Bad things happen when witches and wizards meddle with time.

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Potter Ace - Sep 9, 2005 8:33 am (#442 of 473)
Smiley,

After all that has happened to Harry and IF JKR truly wants to end the series, LV must be killed (don't think murder fits, sans malice) and cease to exist (doesn't become a ghost). Anything else, dementor attack, memory modification, etc. would leave a "crack" for him to be reborn.

Whether Harry lives or dies during the battle, I would consider it an injustice if Harry does not kill LV. In order for evil to perish it must be irradiated and completely destroyed.

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Soul Mate for Sirius - Sep 9, 2005 9:08 am (#443 of 473)
Potter Ace- while I see where you're coming from, i have to agree with Smiley. Whether LV dies in the end or not, I truely don't think that Harry will be the one to kill him. Maybe Snape or Wormtail (or even Lucius, I like that idea) will kill him, but not Harry.

I dont' think that LV has to die in the end for there to be a sense of closure and finality. I think a Dementor attack is just as final. We still don't know what happens to a soul when a Dementor sucks it out, but I don't think there's any way for it to be recovered. While I admit that simply locking LV up in Azkaban or modifying his memory or something like that wouldn't be good enough, I don't think Harry has to kill LV for this to be over.

I agree that it would be fitting if LV is his own undoing. That after everything he's done to chase immortality, I think that it would be an injustice to everyone if he wasn't his own downfall. I also feel it would be an injustice to Harry if he does kill LV. If Harry really is the only one who can kill LV then JKR's whole choices topic is meaningless. Then Harry is predestined to become a murderer and has no say in the matter. If he does not have the option of not become a murderer, then he has no choice, and cannot save himself from splitting his soul.

-Jenn

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mabel - Sep 9, 2005 9:40 am (#444 of 473)
Hello all, boy am I glad I finally started writing in and getting my ideas out there. I love the conversation. In think where I disagree (thanks for backing me up Ace) is the definition of murder. According to Webster, murder is "the crime of unlawfully killing a human being, esp. with malice afterthought." I don't really see Harry as having the malice intent if he were to end LV, and LV is not really a human being (that was what I got out of DD, that he was showing Harry the death of the human being Riddle, and the rise of an evil "thing" that no longer exists). Also, while LV has rerouted Harry's life, I don't think that Harry hates LV, he's angry at what LV has done to his life, and he is tired of fighting and watching those he cares for be destroyed, but its not a death steming from malice or revenge. He doesn't want to murder a person, but he would be ending an evil. I would prefer for him to find a clever way for LV to end himself. I think Soul was onto something there. But it would still be Harry's doing. What if there was a way for LV to somehow mess up his final horcrux, and there was a way it backfired and destroyed him instead. Also, another thought I've had, I was wondering if maybe there is a different horcrux hidden in each of the books.

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siliconsmiley - Sep 9, 2005 10:07 am (#445 of 473)
Edited by Sep 9, 2005 11:08 am
We're all glad you are writing as well mable.

To start with the easy part, there have been discussions at length pondering one horcrux per book. The Horcrux thread is probbably a good place to check out those theories. There may indeed be something to them.

And onto murder most foul. There is wiggle room in this topic. The difference between murder and killing somebody in self-defense and the effects that it has on your soul is very loosely defined. While I cannot dispute the dictionary (although I might try on occasion and this may be one) there are also more legal definitions for murder which include pre-meditation. It is difficult to say (for example) that a sociopathic serial killer does anything with malice. In many cases they show no signs of malice at all. But most do plan their murders carefully, and I would use no other word for what they do than murder. What Voldemort does is certainly murder.

We do know that Dumbledore doesn't seem to kill anybody, regardless of the threat to his own life or the lives of others that he cares about. The Order members all seem to believe that there are some things worth dying for, but no one ever says there is anything worth killing for. Further, in describing Dumbledore's victory over the last great dark lord Grindelwald, JKR very carefully worded the Chocolate Frog card to say 'defeated' and not 'killed'.

Harry then, is Dumbledore's man through and through. After what Harry now knows about soul splitting, horcruxes, etc. I can't imagine him wanting to inflict that kind of damage upon himself.

Finally, there is still the famous glint in Dumbledore's eyes when he learns that Voldemore used Harry's blood to return himself to a new body. What exactly that glint means, I have no idea. JKR writes the rules for how magic works in Harry's world and we have no way of knowing what Dumbledore understood from Harry's blood sacrifice.

It has to means something though.

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joey - Sep 10, 2005 6:51 am (#446 of 473)
Ok but...basically the split souls in the Horcrux's that must be destroyed are actual souls...whether 1/2, 1/3, 1/7th of it doesn't matter. Harry is going to destoy them and he has already destroyed the Diary and an almost reborn Tom Riddle. He killed him by destroying the Diary. Now, if that was only a 1/7th of a soul, and LV in fullform is only a 1/7th of a soul, then what is the difference? LV is basically no longer human and I see no conflicts with Harry destroying LV himself...he's already done it once.

mabel...actually, the curses Harry was trying to throw at Snape after DD's death didn't work because Snape was deflecting them...not because Harry didn't want to kill. There's really no way of knowing whether they would have worked or not had Harry had a chance to complete one of the curses.

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Choices - Sep 10, 2005 7:47 am (#447 of 473)
Well said joey - I agree.

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Acker - Sep 11, 2005 3:25 am (#448 of 473)
I've always had these two endings in my mind, neither of which I truly believe will happen, but both, I feel will make it acceptable for Harry to kill Voldemort:

1) Harry is down, and unarmed, all hope seemingly gone, Voldemort is stood above him, taunting him, talking about all the harm he is going to cause the people Harry loves, pacing in front of the veil. Having heard enough, Harry catches Voldemort by surprise and rugby tackles Harry through the veil and they both die as a result of passing through. It's flimsy, and yes, Harry is responsible because he pushed Volde through, but I don't think people will hold it against him.

2) Somehow, something happens that is an example of Harry's ability to love, (e.g. he steps in front of Ginny as Voldemort is going to kill her etc.), this act of non-familial love causes the locked door in the department of mysteries to burst open and a beam of energy (love) burst through Harry and into Voldemort causing him to die (I don't like the idea of it turning Voldemort into a loving person). Harry could survive this, but, I think if this happens Harry should die, though I think Harry should die as a result of killing Voldemort anyway, so I'm a little biased. (I really don't want Harry to die because he *has* to die to defeat Voldemort, though).

I believe there are ways for Harry to kill Voldemort despite all his influence of not-killing that others have highlighted. Though, I imagine most of them involve Harry dying too. His and Voldemort's lives are so entwined (both were exiled from the wizarding world at the same time, both returned to the wizarding world at the same time, their parentage, their wands, etc.), their deaths must be too...

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Ydnam96 - Sep 11, 2005 9:41 am (#449 of 473)
Acker, I in no way mean this to offend you, but I have to tell you I immediately thought of the Care Bears!! The thought of them rushing out of the door in the MoM and all shouting 'Care Bears: Stare" right at Vodelmort. I think the shock alone would kill him.

Like I said, no ill intentions. It just made me laugh.

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Ana Cis - Sep 11, 2005 12:17 pm (#450 of 473)
Edited by Sep 11, 2005 1:35 pm
IMHO, this is how I see events evolve at the end of the story:

First: I find it highly doubtful that JKR will kill the hero of the story in a children's book. It'd be totally depressing.

Second: Note what Dumbledore didn't teach Harry, which Ron & Hermione expected in HBP5: "advanced defensive magic, probably...powerful countercurses...anti-jinxes..."

This is basically what DD taught Harry: Besides showing Harry how to make Voldemort mortal again and how not to depend to much on the prophecy, DD also stated that Voldemort gave Harry "uniquely deadly weapons, and identifying them as tools (bottom line know your enemy and know yourself):

*1) The ability to see into LV's thoughts and ambitions ("privileged insight into Voldemort's world")
*2) The ability to understand and speak Parseltongue; thereby understanding what LV says to Nagini, and maybe even having the ability to influence the serpent
*3) The ability to repulse and be protected against the lure of the Dark Arts, because of his ability to love
*4) LV's weakness in not understanding the power of an undivided soul, and how it can destroy LV
And third: Although, JKR says that Harry has to go at it alone, she also says--through Dumbledore--that Harry has need of his friends (HBP4). It seems that when Harry needs it most, others have come to his aid because of his capacity to love: His parents, Dumbledore, Fawlkes, Buckbeak, Hagrid, his main friends (Ron, Hermione, Neville, Luna, and Ginny), the OotP, and DA members. Although, Harry will have to rely on himself to find the answers on how to defeat LV; at the end, IMO, others will still come to his aid enabling him to project his capacity to love and defeat Voldemort. It may sound smarmy, but it's what I believe JKR will present in Book 7:
Harry will figure out the following due to his sharp instincts and DB's lessons. Voldemort provided the capability for Harry to connect into Voldemort's mind and emotions. Consequently, Harry will either let LV get into his mind; or Harry will project his feelings towards LV; thereby, emoting all the love he can possibly conceive of...his parents, Sirius, Dumbledore, Ginny, the Weasleys, Ron, Hermione, Neville, Luna and Hagrid. That love will be so powerfull that LV can't handle it and destroys him because there are no more Horcruxes to protect his already decimated soul and body. This ending will also resolve the issue of Harry having to phisically kill LV and still retain an healthy soul.
One more thing: IMO there'll be another phoenix to take care of Nagini.

[Julia H.]

Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince Book Read Along (Chapter by Chapter Discussions Folder - General Discussion - Posts 451-473)

Acker - Sep 12, 2005 3:21 am (#451 of 473)
I just find it hard to believe Harry can live a happy life after destroying Voldemort, however he does it. After all he's been through he deserves peace and to be with the people he has lost.

His heart's desire, as shown by the mirror, is to be with his family. His death would be a happy ending for him.

I find that whole 'defeat the bad guy in an unimpeachable way, get the girl, live happily ever after' Hollywood-style ending is beneath JK, which I guess is why I'm in favour of Harry dying.

Heehee Care Bear stare! Could've been worse, you could have mentioned the Care Bear Cousins instead...

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mabel - Sep 12, 2005 4:57 am (#452 of 473)
Acker, If you read the interview with JKR after HBP was released she states that Harry would now see Voldemort defeated in the Mirror, not his family anymore, because that is the only thing that will give him peace. Joey had a great point also, Harry has already been destroying LV with each destruction of a horcrux. Some of the other arguments almost swayed me to believe otherwise, but Joey's argument brought me back to the conclusion that the destruction of LV is the only way the book can end. I do believe that Harry will sacrifice himself in the end to destroy LV and protect his friends. I don't see how else JKR would be able to end the series without being tempted to write more books in years to come. I really hope that doesn't happen, I would love to see a series with Harry as an auror, chasing Draco, who has become an apprentice of LV and continues LV's mission of dominance and power after LV's destruction.

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Thom Matheson - Sep 12, 2005 5:21 am (#453 of 473)
Does anyone see Snape as the next generation's Voldemort with the Slytherin kids as the next set of death eaters. All this after Harry takes care of Voldemort. Snape takes the role of Voldemort, and Harry takes the role of Dumbledore. Let the 3rd war take place.

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mabel - Sep 12, 2005 8:17 am (#454 of 473)
Thom, that would may better than Draco replacing LV, although I'm still hoping Snape had an agreement with DD, I just would hate for DD to be that naive

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Potter Ace - Sep 12, 2005 9:05 am (#455 of 473)
Mabel,

We agree again. I don't see a clearing without the complete destruction of LV and as Joey has reminded us all, he has been killing (just not softly, he he) him at the conclusion of the books (OTP/HBP excluded) already, so what is another 1/7 to deal with.

I have also read that killing LV will split Harry's soul (Soul Mate post #443 or so). I would disagree with this, it would only split if Harry were to make a Horcrux and complete the incantation.

Also. I like your idea for extending the series using Draco (Snape will meet his end, I hope) at least there would be some very nice things to build an additional book on.

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Choices - Sep 12, 2005 9:14 am (#456 of 473)
Potter Ace - "I have also read that killing LV will split Harry's soul (Soul Mate post #443 or so). I would disagree with this, it would only split if Harry were to make a Horcrux and complete the incantation."

I think from what Slughorn explained to Tom, it is the actual murder that splits the soul, regardless of what is then done with it. There are probably many murders where nothing is done because the murderer does not know about making a horcrux or simply does not care to make one. I am hopeful that Harry will kill (if he has to) Voldemort in self-defence and his soul will remain intact. Dumbledore placed such importance on a soul that is whole and untainted that I just can't fathom Harry having to split his to take out Voldemort.

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Steve Newton - Sep 12, 2005 9:14 am (#457 of 473)
I've never seen any indication that killing would split the soul. Murder, yes, killing, no.

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Soul Mate for Sirius - Sep 12, 2005 9:53 am (#458 of 473)
Ok ok...I have been slightly convinced that Harry killing Voldemort is different then murder, and may not result in his soul splitting, but I still can't see Harry actually killing LV. I agree with you joey that in theory it would be no different then destroying the other Horcruxes, but again I have to say that I think emotionally it would be. The Horcruxes are inanimate objects (except perhaps Nagini, but I have other theories on her that I won't get into right now) whereas LV is a living thing. I don't know. I just can't convince myself that Harry will kill LV. I just can't. But, you guys have convinced me that LV really isn't anything more (in theory) then another Horcrux. AHH I don't know. I'm stuck now! I just don't know. Thanks alot guys!!

-Jenn

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mabel - Sep 12, 2005 10:24 am (#459 of 473)
o.k. sorry guys, this one is long and my ADD mind is going in a few directions, but stay with me. I'm curious about the horcrux theory. I'm letting my sister read my book so I can't read it right now, but does a horcrux have to happen immediately after a murder, or does the murder have to be premeditated with an object there waiting to be made into a horcrux?

Also, do you have to be the one to actually do the murder for a horcrux to appear. Because Wormtail was responsible for the Potters' murder, so wouldn't that cause a split in his soul. Additionally, even if Harry didn't "murder" LV himself, but was responsible for his death, wouldn't he still have his soul split. I would also think that if killing LV himself were to bring Harry eternal unrest, that being indirectly involved in his death would do the same. That's why I just don't see the logic in Harry being unable to kill LV himself. LV has got to go for Harry to have any peace.

One thing that did occur to me, I can't remember if in any of the books, whether anyone in the OtP had been specifically mentioned for killing a death eater? If it were true that when a witch/wizard killed another, regardless of the reason,the result would be that their soul would split, then, wouldn't there be a lot of split souls? This just doesn't seem plausible.

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KTO - Sep 12, 2005 12:40 pm (#460 of 473)
I have stated this before and would put money on it if we were allowed to bet on this site.

LV is destroyed, Tom Riddle is "reborn" for a moment because at the last minute the blood that Harry sacrificed for LV's return, kindles something in the man that was Tom Riddle and helps him to understand that destruction of others is destruction of self and by having Tom fight LV and win, Tom and LV will both die, Tom at peace and Harry will have "destroyed" LV by the "giving" of his blood.

The books have Christian symbolism throughout, agree with it or not, LV/Tom=Darkness has been washed in the blood of Harry=the light, signifing rebirth and cleansing.

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Acker - Sep 12, 2005 3:12 pm (#461 of 473)
If you read the interview with JKR after HBP was released she states that Harry would now see Voldemort defeated in the Mirror, not his family anymore,


Yes, but once he's defeated Voldemort, I think his heart's desire will return to seeing his family.

I don't believe Harry will simply turn up and kill Voldemort because he wants to kill him. I am currently having the growth of an idea of Harry trying to convince Voldemort that the prophecy is nonsense, and that they can both walk away (he'd let Voldemort walk away because he is rendered somehow powerless or is in some other way no longer a threat...) but in typical Hollywood fashion, the bad guy just won't let it go, and Harry reacts and does something on instinct in self-defence... (that costs Harry his life - because I think he should die, sorry.)

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Choices - Sep 12, 2005 4:58 pm (#462 of 473)
mabel - I will try to answer some of your questions about horcruxes. I don't think it has been established in canon exactly how long a person has to create a horcrux after they commit a murder that splits their soul. That is still up for debate - it could be immediately after the murder or it could be some period of time. My thought is that if a person was intent on creating a horcrux, they would do so fairly soon after they commit the murder.

Just committing a murder does not cause a horcrux to appear, but yes, I believe the murder must be a first hand experience for the soul to be split. You can not just be the cause of the murder or you can not hire it done, you must be the murderer. Once you commit the murder, your soul splits and then you are able to create a horcrux. You have an object or thing (Nagini) for the split piece of soul to enter, you say the incantation, and voila....you are the proud owner of a horcrux containing a piece of your soul.

No, I do not believe that if Harry was just responsible for Voldemort's death, but doesn't actually do the murder, that his soul would split.

Murder has to be an act that is contemplated, thought about, deliberate, in cold blood, for it to split the soul. Killing someone accidentally or in combat does not count as murder. Order members who kill someone during a fight, such as the one at the MOM, are not murdering. Voldemort, when he went to Godric's Hollow to kill James and Harry, was committing murder. He planned to kill them and went there for that specific purpose. I believe James' death split his soul, but perhaps Lily's did not since he had not planned to murder her. She just got in the way, but whether it was murder or not can certainly be debated.

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Abracapocus - Sep 13, 2005 4:05 am (#463 of 473)
I agree Choices. Merriam-Webster defines Murder as the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought.

I think perhaps intent would apply here. Killing in self-defense, accidental killing and combat situations would not rip the soul.

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haymoni - Sep 13, 2005 4:54 am (#464 of 473)
Yes - The Sargent York Defense - Harry has to kill Voldy to stop him from killing more people.

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mabel - Sep 13, 2005 8:20 am (#465 of 473)
Thank you all for responding. I was on the same wave length. I think Harry destroying LV is not murder, will not cause Harry's soul to be split because it is considered defense, it stops LV from killing others. Anyone ready for a new topic. Is Percy just misguided, or has he joined the dark side, perhaps as early as CoS?

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kj09 - Sep 13, 2005 11:06 am (#466 of 473)
I really don't know where to post this. But, when Harry looks into the basin at the potion in the cave, why is his reflection upsidedown?

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cannet - Sep 13, 2005 3:39 pm (#467 of 473)
kj09

I think the upside down reflection was DD's, not Harry's; Harry saw DD's reflection, and, of course, it would be upside down to Harry because they were standing opposite of each other. I could be wrong, but on the second reading, it made sense to me.

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Madam Pince - Sep 29, 2005 1:06 pm (#468 of 473)
I don't really know where to post this, but...

Has anyone seen the Swedish cover art for "HBP"? MuggleNet has it up, and I just think Dumbledore looks so cool in it! And the Inferi in the water under the boat! I love that cover!

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Liessie - Oct 13, 2005 6:16 pm (#469 of 473)
Why oh why doesn't Harry get himself a Shield product from the Weasley twins? If he had one on, maybe his mind wouldn't be read quite as easily (I think he used a 'protego' against Snape during his occlumency lessons). And having one on underneath his invisibility cloak may be a good idea too - might have saved himself a broken nose on the train!

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sstabeler - Oct 14, 2005 9:10 am (#470 of 473)
actually, i do not think it would matter against legilimency, snape used an actual spell, voldemort might not be, and as to whether it would have saved harry the broken nose, i do not think it would have,and remember he wasn't expecting to be attacked, he thought noone had seen him.

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Choices - Oct 14, 2005 4:34 pm (#471 of 473)
Don't the shield cloaks and hats only protect against minor to moderate hexes and jinxes - not physical violence or having your mind broken into?

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Liessie - Oct 14, 2005 5:28 pm (#472 of 473)
Yes, but I meant a shield cloak may have rebounded Draco's spell, so that he wouldn't have been able to get Harry into such a situation in the first place. I don't know the scale of protection of the shield cloaks/hats give....and what legilimency would be classified as (what is after all a 'moderate jinx'?). It was just an idea.

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sstabeler - Oct 30, 2005 8:56 am (#473 of 473)
suspectthat legilimency would be classified as an advanced spell or something like that, but we can rule outit beign a dark art, as dumbledore uses it. same goes for occlumency, dumbledore would not teach harry or ask for harry to be taught dark magic.

[Julia H.]

Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince (Chapter by Chapter Discussions) Folder

# Chapter One - The Other Minister

Kip Carter - Jul 15, 2005 4:20 pm
Edited Sep 25, 2006 3:40 am
This thread is to discuss Chapter One of Harry Potter and the HBP Only!

[Julia H.]

Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince Book Read Along (Chapter by Chapter Discussions Folder - Chapter One - Posts 1-50)

Dragonesss - Jul 15, 2005 11:42 pm (#1 of 116)
Edited by Jul 16, 2005 12:47 am
Pardon my ignorance, but who was English Prime Minister in 1993 and 1996?! I'm confused, I was sure it was "she", not "he".

I would be soooo mach more like to see Fudge trying to boss around Mrs. Thatcher.

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Saralinda Again - Jul 15, 2005 11:45 pm (#2 of 116)
I think that's intended to be generic. If JKR had made it a female, we would all be picturing Thatcher. I don't think she really had a choice.

And I am *so* sorry we lost Mrs Bones ...

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Dragonesss - Jul 15, 2005 11:48 pm (#3 of 116)
I did hope Mrs Bones would be new MOM.

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dizzy lizzy - Jul 15, 2005 11:51 pm (#4 of 116)
When you look at this chapter in its entirety, in the whole scheme of things through all 6 books, this chapter makes an awful lot of sense.

I understand now, why Jo had such trouble placing it in earlier books.

The effect would not have been as dramatic or as effective in setting the scene.

Saralinda - I agree totally on the loss of Mrs Bones.

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Dragonesss - Jul 16, 2005 12:07 am (#5 of 116)
I wonder if "the froglike little man" related to Umbrige.

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Makgraf - Jul 16, 2005 12:16 am (#6 of 116)
John Major was PM during those years. Of course that still doesn't fit with our reality because Thatcher was before him and Fudge says that his predessor was a "he".

Of course if the dates are kicked up a few years that we have this PM as Tony Blair with Major as the predessesor who tried to throw Fudge out the window. And didn't others picture the PM as Blair.

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Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 16, 2005 4:33 am (#7 of 116)
But if the Minister of Magic only contacts the Muggle Prime Minister (PM), they may not have seen Margaret Thatcher. But it's nice to know what Fudge has said to the PM.

And we have lost a member of the Order - Emeline Vance.

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Miss Malaprop - Jul 16, 2005 5:04 am (#8 of 116)
Edited by Jul 16, 2005 6:20 am
The Prime Minister was Hugh Grant, of course!

I was scared it would be Susan Bones, for a moment. A Hogwarts death would have impacted me more than a ministry death. It's funny that Susan wasn't mentioned in the book.

Edit: Oops, my mistake...my sister has claimed my book now so can't look it up! Thanks!

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dizzy lizzy - Jul 16, 2005 5:11 am (#9 of 116)
Susan was mentioned in the book, later...Chapter 18

Thats OK. I thought that might be the case, that's why I did not say more...

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Cuivienen - Jul 16, 2005 9:05 am (#10 of 116)
I was very saddened by the death of Amelia Bones. I was also a little bit surprised about this chapter being included later on - it doesn't seem to have really served any purpose aside from introducing Scrimgeour. That said, it was a great chapter, probably because it had been intended for so many books and so revised so many times.

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Saralinda Again - Jul 16, 2005 9:11 am (#11 of 116)
Well, it did answer some of our questions about the how the Muggle world's corridors of power relate to the Wizarding world's. And it also caught us up to date on what Voldie and crew had been doing in the past few weeks.

Not wasting any time, were they?

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haymoni - Jul 16, 2005 10:50 am (#12 of 116)
Don't have OotP in front of me, but Scrimgeour has already BEEN introduced.

Wasn't he the one who was asking questions? Kingsley mentioned it when Harry & Arthur were at the MOM for Harry's hearing. I think it was during the meatball conversation.

Saralinda - this was the kind of action I was looking for in OotP.

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Marie E. - Jul 16, 2005 11:30 am (#13 of 116)
I was also shocked about Amelia Bones. After how often she was mentioned in OoP I thought for sure she'd have a bigger role in HBP.

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Cuivienen - Jul 16, 2005 12:22 pm (#14 of 116)
haymoni - I meant more in terms of Scrimgeour being introduced as Minister. I did recognize his name from Harry's visit to the MoM in OotP.

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Finn BV - Jul 16, 2005 12:32 pm (#15 of 116)
I thought it was very funny that only 13 pages into the book, everybody's favorite candidate for the new position had already been given the axe.

Oh, well, now I got to go finish. Only in Chapter 18. I started it at 1:15 this morning, but I was sooo tired I've slept twice in between, and I just have to finish!!

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Cuivienen - Jul 16, 2005 12:38 pm (#16 of 116)
I think maybe it was done intentionally. JKR knew that she wasn't going to use Amelia Bones again and knew that Mrs. Bones was the fans' favorite for Minister, so she killed off her early on instead.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 16, 2005 4:09 pm (#17 of 116)
I was surprised by Fudge remaining as an advisor to Scrimgeour I guess even ostriches have their uses.

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Amilia Smith - Jul 16, 2005 4:34 pm (#18 of 116)
Finn, I was thinking the same thing. Although rather saddened to see my namesake snuff it.

Well, this chapter caught me totally by surprise. And here we had all been positive we would get to see Godric's Hollow that night. But I must add, I thoroughly enjoyed it. :-)

Mills.

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Quibbler Editor In Chief - Jul 16, 2005 5:02 pm (#19 of 116)
Well just got my book almost 24 hrs after everyone else and just completed the first chapter. I recognized the name of Emmeline Vance, but could anyone remind me where we have heard it before and if she did anything that was important.

This certainly was an interesting new way for the book to begin and was very helpful in explaining the communication between muggle government and the Ministry of Magic.

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Amilia Smith - Jul 16, 2005 5:07 pm (#20 of 116)
I think Emmeline Vance was part of the advance guard in OotP. Not positive on that. But I am sure she was a member of the Order.

Mills.

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Doris Crockford - Jul 16, 2005 5:08 pm (#21 of 116)
Emmaline Vance was an Order member, I think she came to get Harry in the Advance Guard in OoP. (Edit: posted at the same time as Amilia)

This definitely wasn't what I expected for a first chapter, but I have to say I really enjoyed the reaction of the muggle PM to everything Fudge was saying, and it was a good way of summarizing what had happened in a new way.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 16, 2005 5:09 pm (#22 of 116)
Emmeline Vance was a member of the Advanced Guard. When I read the name Bones as a murder victim. I figured that Voldemort killed her personally.

On another note I was nor surprised by Kingsley's assignment. I figured that with Voldemort and the Death Eaters active again it seemed logical to place a highly trained auror in the position in order to protect the Prime Minister. I wonder whether the assigned an Auror to protect the Queen as well

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Quibbler Editor In Chief - Jul 16, 2005 5:12 pm (#23 of 116)
Thank you all...that was what I was thinking as well, but I was not sure. Seems that the first two casualties of this book were just smaller characters who we had heard of, but who were not as important or well-loved. I am sure this will only be a small sampling of what is to come... Now I am on to Chapter 2 and I cannot wait.

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Jessalynn Quirky - Jul 16, 2005 6:00 pm (#24 of 116)
I did have a *small* giggle to myself when Kingsley was mentioned.

What I don't get is why Voldemort would want to kill the PM anyway?

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Doris Crockford - Jul 16, 2005 6:04 pm (#25 of 116)
He'd probably want to kill the PM because:

1) He's a Muggle.

2) He's a Muggle with a lot of power and support, and Voldemort is jealous.

3)To freak out the rest of the muggles, just for 'fun'.

4) He knows the Minister of Magic is in touch with the PM, so he wants the information the Minister would have given the PM.

5)He's Voldemort, and likes killing EVERYONE.

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the almighty kneazle - Jul 16, 2005 7:37 pm (#26 of 116)
was the pm in any of the other books

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centauriffic - Jul 16, 2005 7:38 pm (#27 of 116)
I think the guard wasn't to prevent the Prime Minister from being killed, but to keep him from an Imperius curse. LV has enough followers as it is!

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magicgirl - Jul 16, 2005 11:12 pm (#28 of 116)
The PM wasn't directly named in any other book, however I think he was referred to in PoA, how Fudge had to inform the Muggle PM about Sirius being on the loose. Will have to check for the exact quote.

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Ms. Trelawney - Jul 17, 2005 12:16 am (#29 of 116)
Has anyone noticed the mistake on page 10 of the American edition? In the first paragraph: "The site, therefore, of Fudge stepping out of the fire once more..." It should be SIGHT, not site.

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Star Crossed - Jul 17, 2005 4:02 am (#30 of 116)
Yeah, I noticed that, too, during my first reading. I tried to show it to my friend without letting her see anything else because she wanted to wait till she got home.

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Winky Woo - Jul 17, 2005 5:02 am (#31 of 116)
I can now see why she had thought of using this chapter in a couple of books but why it may not have always fitted. I could really see it would have worked with Fudge telling the PM about Sirius, in POA.

It was highly amusing and made me laugh out loud in the book queue as I was waiting to pay(They had very kindly handed them out at 12.01 so we could read as we waited to pay! and of course I couldn't resist the temptation) It put me in mind straight away of the first 2 books in its style and simplicity.

Thirteen years in the brewing indeed...

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haymoni - Jul 17, 2005 5:25 am (#32 of 116)
I just wonder if Scrimgeour was asking questions about Sirius as a good MOM member or for some other reason.

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Finn BV - Jul 17, 2005 8:05 am (#33 of 116)
Edited Jul 17, 2005 9:52 am
I agree, I definitely was thinking about this chapter in other books. Rufus Scrimgeour was a big disappointment ? who? She shouldn't have introduced this character so late? we learned such little about him from the book while we could have had more on other characters.

Edit: Just looking around on the Lexicon. Scrimgeour was mentioned in OoP briefly when they were looking for Sirius. Still, not a very memorable person.

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Chemyst - Jul 17, 2005 9:10 am (#34 of 116)
How do you pronounce Scrimgeour?
A soft "g" and 3 sylables?

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Saralinda Again - Jul 17, 2005 9:14 am (#35 of 116)
That's how I'm pronouncing it until JKR tells us otherwise. If so, that's fabulous. My son, who first introduced me to HP, has a last name with three syllables, the second two being "hour." And his blog user name starts with "rufus" -- so I'm teasing the heck out of him right now over his promotion.

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freshwater - Jul 17, 2005 10:09 am (#36 of 116)
Did anyone else besides me get a chuckle from the first few words of chap. 1?

"It was nearing midnight..."


*snort**grin** I got a mental picture of people all over the globe reading those words just after midnight in their respective time zones. I feel sure Jo had a bit of a laugh to herself when she wrote that, and had in mind all of the midnight parties that would be going on for the release.

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Marie E. - Jul 17, 2005 6:53 pm (#37 of 116)
Edited Jul 18, 2005 6:21 am
I noticed on my reread that the portrait in the Prime Minister's office calls Fudge "Mr. Fudge" and when announcing the new MoM says "Rufus Scrimgeour, Minister of Magic". When you go back and read it you pick up on the hint that Fudge is no longer MoM.

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Riley the Happy Dude - Jul 18, 2005 1:06 am (#38 of 116)
I don't have my copy with me (I am loaning it) but I think that JKR has finally found the place to put the first chapter. If she had put it in the first although it would have been a good introduction to the Wizarding World, it would give away so much that happens in the later books. Like for the fourth book we would have a big idea about what would be hapenning at Hogwarts.

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 18, 2005 10:29 am (#39 of 116)
Fudge reminds the Prime Minister about Dementors "That's right. And they're breeding. That's what's causing all this mist." Page 14, US Scholastic

Yet JKR said "These evil creatures don't, by the way, breed but grow like a fungus where there is decay." Canadian Press, October 25, 2000

Interesting contradiction, maybe we need a Problems with the Sixth Book thread?

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Oruma - Jul 18, 2005 10:42 am (#40 of 116)
I am initially shocked that Amelia Bones is killed, off screen as well, so early in book 6, espeically after all our guesswork on her being the next MoM.

Two side of the knut:

(a)Kingsley is mentioned a couple of times throughout the book, but I'm just wondering, did Rufus Scrimgeour or the rest of the Ministry know Kingsley is a member of the OoP?? I didn't notice anything about their knowing, during my quick first-read. Any ideas?

(b)I think Fudge is staying on an advisory job, because although it's "open warfare" in Wizarding Britain, some aspects of normal life still has to go on, and that's where Fudge can help. I doubt an ex-Auror like Scrimgeour will interest himself in tax collecting, commerce or globin liasioning very much.

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quibbler - Jul 18, 2005 11:24 am (#41 of 116)
Somewhere it is stated that Scrimgeour was appointed. I found that a little odd. Aren't there elections in the wizarding world?

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Hem Hem - Jul 18, 2005 12:53 pm (#42 of 116)
This chapter, although not quite related to remainder of the plot, makes such a perfect opening chapter, not only because it's so comical, but also because it's the perfect contrast to the way OotP opened. In book 5, the wizarding world is denying Voldemort's return, and Harry is desperately waiting to hear news of some sort of movement of the Death Eaters. We knew that thins were changing by the end of OotP, but here, this book opens up and things are exactly the opposite. Fudge is really scared, really stressed, and really public about it. The violence that Voldemort is perpetrating is even reachign the muggle news.

If OotP opened like HBP does, Harry would never have had his agnst problems! To me, this is what makes this first chapter so enjoyable. I loved reading it!

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Geber - Jul 18, 2005 1:41 pm (#43 of 116)
Perhaps a British reader could tell us how ministers below the level of Prime Minister, such as Home Minister or Defense Minister, are dismissed or appointed.

In the US, the President can dismiss a cabinet secretary, but to appoint a secretary (s)he needs the consent of the Senate.

It would be interesting if in book 7 the Prime Minister decides to intervene in the selection of the Minister of Magic.



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kingy89 - Jul 18, 2005 2:23 pm (#44 of 116)
Ministers below the Prime Minister are chosen by the Prime Minister-by what we must assume is a personal method.I believe the PM can choose ANYONE who is a Member of Parliament for the various jobs ie Foreign Secretary, however it is usual for the PM to pick MPs from his or her own political party.(i hope you all know that MPs are the people you vote for in the local elections and each local election counts as one constition won by the respective MPs party).

This is also the reason you hear phrases like the "Shadow defence Minister". The opposition party (the Tories at the moment)leader chooses MPs from their party to do all the same jobs as the actual party in power and they say how they would do each job.

it might be helpful to know that i am english and have a politically mad friend

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freshwater - Jul 18, 2005 6:15 pm (#45 of 116)
Re: dememtors breeding

Consider the source....it was Fudge who used the word "breeding", and we know he never gets anything quite right! **grin**

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Julie Aronson - Jul 18, 2005 7:11 pm (#46 of 116)
Dragonesss,

Yes, I also noticed the Umbridge-esque characteristics of the man in the picture. I also remember that she was described in some very contrivedly feminine ways. Maybe she's actually in disguise (drag) and working for yet another evil purpose.

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bella - Jul 18, 2005 7:19 pm (#47 of 116)
On the dementors I am going to go out on a limb and say that the mist could be a)a side effect of the breeding or b)it may be them optimizing conditions for reproduction. What better way to encourage decay then set damp dark conditions where molds grow best?

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Alex Thorpe - Jul 19, 2005 3:47 am (#48 of 116)
Good, simple start to the book to get us back into the world of the wizards and to fill us in a bit on the between-book happenings as well as the relationship between the two ministers.

I liked the response to the PM saying "Why did no-one tell me?"

"Are you going to tell anyone?"

Like some earlier posters, I am confused as to how one becomes MoM, and whether there's any official relationship between MoM and PM. I mean, who's in charge of who if needs be?

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Mrs Brisbee - Jul 19, 2005 6:06 am (#49 of 116)
I really liked this chapter. It gave a great overview of what was happening. I was that Amelia Bones was killed. Not a lot of women are major players in Rowling's books, and I had high hopes for her. Liked the Muggle Prime Minister. He could find compassion for Fudge, the alarming guy who pops out of the fireplace to bring him only turmoil and bad news.

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siliconsmiley - Jul 19, 2005 6:39 am (#50 of 116)
Did anybody else feel some redemption for Fudge in this chapter? He did mess up and, boy did he mess up badly. Something about having Fudge's side of the story told to a muggle somehow softened my attitude towards him.

[Julia H.]

Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince Book Read Along (Chapter by Chapter Discussions Folder - Chapter One - Posts 51-100)

Snuffles - Jul 19, 2005 6:52 am (#51 of 116)
Nope, sorry, no feeling of remorse here for Fudge. He was told time and time again by DD and Harry that LV was back and he chose to ignore it. He did everything he could to make the Wizarding world not trust Harry and say that DD was losing his way.

Im my opinion, Fudge got everything he deserved.

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siliconsmiley - Jul 19, 2005 8:00 am (#52 of 116)
Certainly, he got what he deserved. Actually, I think he deserved quite a bit more than he got.

But let us not forget, he was hoodwinked by Lord Voldemort. Cleverer wizards and witches than Fudge have fallen to Voldemort's designs.

I think Fudge's acceptance of his own errors is what made me soften my feelings towards him.

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CatherineHermiona - Jul 19, 2005 9:40 am (#53 of 116)
First, I'm so sorry because of Mrs. Bones' death. She was so nice. I'm sure Susan Bones, her niece, is really sad.

When I started to read first chapter I thought that there won't be the new minister because I thought chapter is The other minister because the Prime Minister is calling Minister of Magic The Other Minister. But I was wrong. There is a the new minister and I hope this one is smarter and right person for that job in this situation.

Kate

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Solitaire - Jul 19, 2005 10:02 am (#54 of 116)
I was saddened by the death of Amelia Bones for a couple of reasons. First, I thought she would have made an excellent, competent, and FAIR Minister of Magic. She did not seem the type to be influenced by the petty things (such as family background and social status) that appear to have affected Fudge's judgments and opinions. She was a strong character with a great deal of integrity. I do not particularly like Rufus; I can already see potential problems with him.

Second, Madame Bones may have been a minor character from the standpoint of her limited face time in OotP; however, she was a major player in the Wizarding Government, and I think her death shows us the extent to which the Wizarding War has progressed. It would appear that Voldemort and his forces are going after those who are strong leaders in the WW--those who could do him damage. You notice Fudge and Umbridge are still around. Need I say more?

Solitaire

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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 19, 2005 10:10 am (#55 of 116)
Solitaire, I do not particularly like Rufus either however, I doubt he will vaciliate like Fudge. I see him as being more akin to Bartimeus Crouch Sr. This similarity may actually be a threat to Voldemort.

I lament Amelia's death because she showed the fairness, justice, and compassion while, being a determined and ferocious fighter like her brother Edgar in short she posssessed the necessary to be a truly effective leader.

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Mrs Brisbee - Jul 19, 2005 10:30 am (#56 of 116)
I think this was a great chapter, but I have one minor problem with it, which is so stupidly nitpicky I hate to even mention it. Hurricanes are huge storms, right? They start over oceans and sometimes move over land, potentially causing widespread devastation. They can be hundreds of miles across, and exist for an average of ten days. Satellites in orbit around the earth usually pick up their formation, and your local weatherman will tell you all about it while pointing the thing out on a green screen. So is a hurricane really a good cover for magical devastation? How big an area was effected? I would think tornado would be a better cover story, since they can spring up without warning.

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Finn BV - Jul 19, 2005 1:19 pm (#57 of 116)
JKR said in the cub reporter interview:

Samatha Scattergood for Waterstones: Which is your favourite member of the Order of the Phoenix?
J.K. Rowling: I keep killing all my favourite members of the Order of the Phoenix, but there is one member that you have not yet met properly and you will? well, you know that they are a member, but you haven't really met them properly yet and you will meet them in seven, so I am looking forward to that.

Cub Reporter Interview, July 16, 2005

I think it is interesting to note that Emmeline Vance, who did not exactly earn a rather large part in any of the earlier books, is one to go quite early here. Does this say something about her character, being one of Rowling's favorites?

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timrew - Jul 19, 2005 2:48 pm (#58 of 116)
Amelia Bones and Emmeline Vance had to go. They were both too competent and honest to be Minister for Magic.

I think JKR wants the MOM to remain a lying, spinning, dishonest organisation led by scoundrels and hypocrites such as Fudge and Scrimgeour. I think she wants Harry and his pals to succeed despite the MOM, and not because of it.

Sure, there are a few honest people working there, such as Arthur Weasley and Kingsley Shacklebolt; but they are not in a position of power. I think the phrase, 'Lions led by donkeys' comes to mind.

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Dr Filibuster - Jul 19, 2005 4:15 pm (#59 of 116)
I laughed when reading the words "Chancellor of the Exchequer".

Our Chancellor since 1997, Gordon Brown, knows Rowling personally and is a fan of the books (maybe for how much money the stories have brought into Britain as much as the tales themselves?).

Nobody has mentioned the recent London bombings. I really don't mean to trivialise them by writing this, but I was relieved JK decided on a bridge collapsing rather than another type of disaster. Less than a fortnight ago, I was posting on here saying "what a week the Prime Minister's had". Sometimes this chapter made the hairs on the back of my neck rise.

A great first chapter. What a super way to introduce casual readers to the magical world and at the same time give obsessives loads of interesting details.

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schoff - Jul 19, 2005 10:33 pm (#60 of 116)
I absolutely love the title of this chapter. It's such a wonderful example of multi-layering. Precisely which "Other Minister" does JKR mean?

While I also was shocked by the sudden high death count (and its victims), I do have to say that this was also just about the only chapter I got to laugh in. I've been involved in several debates on how to pronounce "Sirius." I just wish she had confirmed "knut" as well.

fbv807: I think it is interesting to note that Emmeline Vance, who did not exactly earn a rather large part in any of the earlier books, is one to go quite early here. Does this say something about her character, being one of Rowling's favorites?

Keep in mind that JKR knows more about these characters than we ever will.

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Solitaire - Jul 19, 2005 10:52 pm (#61 of 116)
Emmeline Vance was obviously a skilled witch if she was in the Advance Guard. I can't believe any but the most trusted and powerful would have been taken on such an important errand ... can you?

Her death, combined with that of Amelia Bones, shows that Voldemort and the DEs are striking at people who are in a position to provide serious opposition. Given the fact that a large number of DEs were arrested and are in Azkaban, perhaps the DEs wanted to make a show of strength, to prove that they are a force with which to be reckoned. What better way to do it than to go after important people? It's possible that Emmeline Vance was more important than we know ... JM2K.

Solitaire

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Lina - Jul 20, 2005 4:54 am (#62 of 116)
Firstly, I didn't expect this to be the first chapter being discarded few times before.

But it makes sense.

Reading the first book, I already have imagined that the wizards must have a way to inform the Prime Minister about the Ministry of Magic. I didn't imagine the fireplace or the portrait, but I was sure that they choose like the first day of duty to introduce the Prime Minister into their existence.

As for breeding of the Dementors, I noticed that too, and I didn't like it, but I assume that she wanted to say multiplying. Maybe Fudge was just too upset to think of the right word.

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Finn BV - Jul 20, 2005 8:57 am (#63 of 116)
Oh yes, Schoff and Solitaire, that's what I was trying to get at, while still leaving it open. If JKR loved all the Order's members that were getting the axe first, then they must have more to just getting mentioned twice at most in OoP.

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Lina - Jul 21, 2005 12:13 am (#64 of 116)
It just came to me: what must she had thought reading our ideas about Madame Bones becoming a new Minister and knowing that she has already killed her? Interesting.

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Madam Pince - Jul 21, 2005 1:11 pm (#65 of 116)
Great title for a chapter -- the double meaning is so typically JKR.

Alex, I also loved the line "Are you going to tell anybody?" It was nice to start the book off with a chapter that had some lighthearted moments.

I was sure, however, from the pre-book hints, that this chapter was going to be about Godric's Hollow, so I was disappointed in that. Actually, for a chapter that was "thirteen years in the making," I was somewhat disappointed. Yes, it was cute, and it was a convenient method of updating us briefly on what's been going on since the end of OoP, but it didn't really do much for me.

Ha-ha -- joke's on us about Amelia Bones. I know I was pretty sure she was going to be the new Minister. I was glad to see that Fudge was somewhat contrite -- I was worried that he was going to continue being a problem.

This whole chapter had me worried that "HBP" was going to focus on events in the Muggle world as well as the Wizarding world, which would've seriously bummed me out.

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Dr Filibuster - Jul 22, 2005 4:47 pm (#66 of 116)
have you heard the comments in the Houses of Parliament? LOL!

The Prime Minister announced that he's still looking for the Minister for Magic.

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Madame Kulich - Jul 23, 2005 9:15 am (#67 of 116)
What does fug mean? Was it a misprint? I am confused.

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Choices - Jul 23, 2005 9:19 am (#68 of 116)
Madame - It's in the dictionary. I thought it was a misprint for "fog", but it is a real word.

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Madam Pince - Jul 24, 2005 10:00 am (#69 of 116)
Even though it's a real word, I still think it's a misprint. It could be either, though, I suppose. (Harry is asleep against the window and it says "...the misty fug his breath had left on the window sparkled in the orange glare of the streetlamp outside...")

Madame Kulich, the dictionary definition of fug is "an odorous emanation; esp. the stuffy atmosphere of a poorly ventilated space." Maybe Harry has very bad breath. Anyway, I hope it's a misprint! "Fog" would be much nicer!

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Herm oh ninny - Jul 24, 2005 9:38 pm (#70 of 116)
I just finished re-reading this chapter and I have to say that, for some unknown reason, I felt sorry for Fudge. I don't know if it's simply because I really dislike Scrimegour or what, but I did pity Fuge. Anyone else laugh out loud when Fudge said that the previous prime minister tried to throw him out the window!

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Madam Pince - Jul 25, 2005 2:28 am (#71 of 116)
I kind of did, too, Herm oh ninny. I think it's because it's been two years since we first got OoP and our initial indignation at Fudge's horrible behavior then has worn off.

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Chemyst - Jul 25, 2005 5:37 am (#72 of 116)
On Fudge - my reaction was, "he still gets paid? Well isn't that just like a bloated bureaucracy, to keep him on payroll."

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Lina - Jul 25, 2005 7:29 am (#73 of 116)
I agree with you Chemyst. I expected him to be fired, so I see nothing to be sorry for him. The only thing I thought was "Well, it seems that he is not really evil, just stupid." Oh, that's what I thought, but for the Forum, it would be probably better to say "Just incompetent". Sometimes it pays good in life to be incompetent. I am sorry to see that the new Minister is on the same line... I didn't expect that although I had to.

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timrew - Jul 25, 2005 2:48 pm (#74 of 116)
My dictionary defines 'fug' as the 'stuffy atmosphere of a poorly ventilated place'. I think it's no misprint. When JKR wrote 'fug', she meant 'fug'.

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Solitaire - Jul 25, 2005 4:28 pm (#75 of 116)
The "site," therefore, of Fudge stepping out of the fire once more, looking disheveled and fretful and sternly surprised that the Prime Minister did not know exactly why he was there, was about the worst thing that had happened in the course of this extremely gloomy week.

Mmmmm ... did she really mean "site"? I'm thinking it was a typo or misprint.

Solitaire

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Hem Hem - Jul 25, 2005 4:31 pm (#76 of 116)
Hold onto your copy and maybe it'll be worth something someday.

Too bad there are millions of copies exactly like yours!

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timrew - Jul 25, 2005 4:34 pm (#77 of 116)
Solitaire:- The "site," therefore, of Fudge stepping out of the fire once more, looking disheveled and fretful and sternly surprised that the Prime Minister did not know exactly why he was there, was about the worst thing that had happened in the course of this extremely gloomy week.<i/>

In the English edition, Septentrion, it's 'sight'. Definitely a typo or misprint, in your version..............

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Herm oh ninny - Jul 25, 2005 4:54 pm (#78 of 116)
I have the US version and mine says "site" as well. One of the many typos I have come across.

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Solitaire - Jul 25, 2005 7:50 pm (#79 of 116)
I can't help it timrew ... I'm a teacher! It's a little like the urge I sometimes have to walk up to adolescents who are misbehaving in a restaurant or movie and write them detentions! **giggling mischievously**

Solitaire

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The Noble House of Black - Jul 26, 2005 3:11 am (#80 of 116)
Mrs Thachter lost control of her party in 1992. John Major was PM from 1992 until 1997. so Fudge went to see John Major. Although they way the prime minister asks the chancalor to remove the picture in his study, because he can't do it himself denotes Blair and Brown.

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Snuffles - Jul 26, 2005 3:12 am (#81 of 116)
Is that your Snapeish side coming out there Soli?

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siliconsmiley - Jul 26, 2005 6:09 am (#82 of 116)
I felt bad for Fudge as well. Maybe it was pity. I sort of felt that this chapter was a bit of redemption for him. Seeing things from his perspective shows that he isn't quite the idiot we have assumed him to be. At least that was my immediate reaction to reading this chapter.

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Solitaire - Jul 26, 2005 8:30 am (#83 of 116)
Nah, not really, Snuffles. I'm no Snape ...

Solitaire

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rassannassar - Jul 26, 2005 9:32 am (#84 of 116)
Solitaire The "site," therefore...

To the best of my knowledge, "site" is an accepted way to spell "sight", at least, in America. Similarly, "lite" and "rite" are accepted spellings of "light" and "right."

EDIT:

Okay. My sister majored in journalism and that is what she said.

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M A Grimmett - Jul 26, 2005 9:34 am (#85 of 116)
I think "fug" was a better word choice--it seems more evocative of Harry's state of mind and circumstance than a mere "fog".

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Mrs. D. - Jul 26, 2005 9:37 am (#86 of 116)
rassannassar: "Site" in America refers to a location while "sight" would have to do with vision. It is incorrect to write "He looked quite a site". Lite is a word that often stands for light as in low calorie and is usually used in product descriptions. "Rite" as in "rite of passage" and "right" as in "it is the right thing to do", at least here in AZ anyway.

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Choices - Jul 26, 2005 10:08 am (#87 of 116)
Thanks Mrs. D - that is what I was going to say also. I don't think they are accepted substitutions for sight or right and would be confusing if used by a journalist.

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Solitaire - Jul 26, 2005 11:18 am (#88 of 116)
I would never claim to know it all, rassannassar, because I don't. In college, however, I majored in English, during which time I took a year of linguistics as well as courses in the history of the English language. I have also taught English and language arts for 19 years, and I did editing and proofreading for a magazine during the 80s. I have seen the word site used as a transitive verb a few times, as one might use the word situate, but I can honestly say I've never seen it used interchangeably with sight in any way. I suppose someone who has access to an OED could find out about the etymology of the word. I would agree with Choices, though, that it would be confusing for a journalist to use it in that way. I'm betting it was a misprint.

Solitaire

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Chemyst - Jul 26, 2005 11:59 am (#89 of 116)
If I may cite another reference...
site - 14th century. Via Anglo-Norman < Latin situs "place, position" < sinere "put"
sight - Old English (ge)siht < W Germanic < seon to see
cite - 15th century. < Latin citare "summon repeatedly" < citus, past participle of ciere "summon"

Different words from different roots.

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Soul Mate for Sirius - Jul 26, 2005 12:41 pm (#90 of 116)
Hi all! I'm new here so be gentle! Anyway, I also felt somewhat bad for Fudge in this chapter. I felt like in the time between the fiasco at the MoM and the beginning of HBP, he's not only realized how narrow-minded and oblivious he was being, but what the consequences of his mistakes were. I still think he was quite an incapable Minister of Magic, but at least he realizes that now too (IMHO).

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Madam Pince - Jul 26, 2005 5:01 pm (#91 of 116)
Via Mugglenet, from Arthur A. Levine Books' website (FAQ section):

(Regarding errors in HBP):

p. 10: The site, therefore, of Fudge stepping out of the fire once more . . .

Yes, we confess ? ?site? here should be ?sight,? and it?s an error we very much regret. We have already made arrangements to correct the mistake in future reprints of the book.

p. 38: The misty fug his breath had left on the window . . .

This one, however, is not an error?just a word that?s unfamiliar to many readers. Webster?s Tenth New Collegiate Dictionary defines ?fug? as ?a stuffy or malodorous emanation,? which is perfectly in keeping with Harry?s sleepy breathing. This usage is therefore correct as it stands.

So there. Timrew, my hat is off to you!

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Choices - Jul 26, 2005 5:37 pm (#92 of 116)
Thanks for the info Madam - that certainly clears that up! :-)

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Solitaire - Jul 26, 2005 9:29 pm (#93 of 116)
Thanks, Chemyst and Madam P.

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siliconsmiley - Jul 27, 2005 5:58 am (#94 of 116)
Soul Mate for Sirius -- I had similar feelings for Fudge after reading this chapter. I'm glad somebody else saw it the same way I did.

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Netherlandic - Jul 31, 2005 11:58 am (#95 of 116)
I really loved this chapter. It is so different.

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M A Grimmett - Jul 31, 2005 12:04 pm (#96 of 116)
I felt very sorry for the Muggle PM--all those things that weren't his fault and he couldn't tell anybody!

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deletedaccount - Jul 31, 2005 1:14 pm (#97 of 116)
I loved this chapter. Especially when the prime mister asked why no one told him and Fudge asked him if he was going to tell anyone.

By the way, what does "canon" mean? I see that word come up often in posts but never seen it explained.

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Chemyst - Jul 31, 2005 1:41 pm (#98 of 116)
Sajarie,

canon - a set of artistic works established as genuine and complete, e.g. the works of a particular writer, painter, or moviemaker; a set of writings regarded as authentic and definitive.

When the word canon is used on this forum, it means that JKR has written it in the books, said it in an interview, or posted it on her website as fact. Something in the movie is not considered to be canon.

The Lexicon FAQ has a section on "What is "canon" and why should I care?" here.

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Netherlandic - Aug 2, 2005 12:03 pm (#99 of 116)
I saw in my dictionary (I had to look up the word also) that it also means: law of the church/clerical law.

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Dame Peverell - Aug 6, 2005 6:41 pm (#100 of 116)
While likened to a lion, Scrimgeour also bears a certain dog or wolf-like resemblance; at least in his loping gait. Food for thought.

It also strikes me as odd that Shacklebolt is playing secretary which puts him far from where the real action is. I guess I am, like Harry, suspicious of the MOM. Why are the best guys out cleaning up after exploding toilets and capturing harmless braggarts?

[Julia H.]

Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince Book Read Along (Chapter by Chapter Discussions Folder - Chapter One - Posts 101-116)

Leia Tyndall - Aug 6, 2005 8:45 pm (#101 of 116)
I haven't seen anyone else point this out, so here goes: on page 12 (US edition) Fudge is speaking to the Prime Minister:

"He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named has now been joined by those of his followers who broke out of Azkaban in January," said Fudge, speaking more and more rapidly and twirling his bowler so fast that it was a lime-green blur. "Since they have moved into the open, they have been wreaking havoc. The Brockadale Bridge--he did it, Prime Minister, he threatened a mass Muggle killing UNLESS I STOOD ASIDE FOR HIM and--" {EMPHASIS ADDED}

I find it interesting that once again, Voldemort seems to have told (requested?) someone to stand aside. Why would he do it again? We know he told Lily to stand aside, but why tell Fudge too? What are your thoughts on the matter?

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The giant squid - Aug 7, 2005 12:15 am (#102 of 116)
The Brockadale Bridge--he did it, Prime Minister, he threatened a mass Muggle killing UNLESS I STOOD ASIDE FOR HIM and--"


Curiously, Fudge claims he didn't step down for that, yet he's being replaced by the end of the week. Is Scrimgeour's appointment as innocent/routine as we're led to believe?

--Mike

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joey - Aug 10, 2005 6:49 am (#103 of 116)
Scrimgeor was an Auror before MoM, right?

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Herm oh ninny - Aug 10, 2005 6:51 am (#104 of 116)
Yup Joey, I believe he was the head of the Auror's department.

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Steve Newton - Aug 10, 2005 7:00 am (#105 of 116)
Yes, in OOTP Kinglsey is worried that Scrimgeour is asking questions about Sirius.

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Red Fraggle - Aug 11, 2005 2:49 am (#106 of 116)
My favourite bit of this chapter was the Prime Minister trying to remember what he'd been told before about Sirius Black 'because he liked to appear well informed'. I wonder whether JKR is having a slight dig at our own Prime Minister here or just politicians in general? Although the Chancellor of the Exchequor not being able to get the portrait off the wall was pretty good too, I agree with whoever said it was a very Blair and Brown moment! (Sorry can't remember your name and the post is a few pages back.) As for Fudge, well, never underestimate the power of very stupid people in large groups, the large group being the MoM in this case.

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haymoni - Aug 11, 2005 6:23 am (#107 of 116)
Sorry, but what is a Chancellor of the Exchequor?

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Snuffles - Aug 11, 2005 6:26 am (#108 of 116)
Haymoni, he is the one responsible for all the finances for the country! He sorts out all the budgets. At the moment in the UK it is Gorden Brown!

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Elanor - Aug 11, 2005 6:32 am (#109 of 116)
I am not British but I believe he is the Finance Minister in the UK. Am I right?

But I do know from where the name comes from: it comes from the French word "échiquier" (chessboard) and it was brought by the Normans. In the Norman dukedom, counts were made on a chequered tablecloth, hence the name of the institution.

Edit: LOL Snuffles! You answered before I found how to say "chequered tablecloth" in English!

BTW, it could be another chess reference for the ones who follow the chess thread!

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haymoni - Aug 11, 2005 7:48 am (#110 of 116)
So why would you call a finance guy to get a picture off a wall???

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joey - Aug 11, 2005 9:30 am (#111 of 116)
exhausting all your options...?

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Dr Filibuster - Aug 11, 2005 10:26 am (#112 of 116)
The Chancellor of the Exchequor is the second most powerful person in our government.

It's a double act....PM & Chancellor (currently Blair & Brown). They even live next door to each other, at Number 10 and Number 11 Downing Street.

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Red Fraggle - Aug 12, 2005 1:16 am (#113 of 116)
Yes Dr Filibuster, that's what I meant, our PM and Chancellor are very much a double act, although the rumour here (in the UK)is that the Chancellor really wants the PM's job. I just thought it was funny how JKR seemed to pick up on this with the portrait, as if the Chancellor not being able to get the portrait off the wall meant he wasn't capable of doing the PM's job.

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Acker - Aug 23, 2005 5:04 am (#114 of 116)
In response to the original post:

John Major was Prime Minister of the UK from 1990-1997

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rassannassar - Apr 18, 2006 7:20 pm (#115 of 116)
w00t- GO United Kingdom!

And I'm being completely honest when I say that. I think the UK is soo much cooler than the US. First of all, you guys speak English the right way. Secondly, you have the coolest accents. Thirdly, you have a queen. Even if she doesn't do much as far as governing the country goes, you still have a queen.

My high school has a club call World Affairs Club. I'm in it this year. Every year the club makes a trip to a university not far from here and participates with several other high schools in a Model United Nations. We had the good fortune of getting to represent the UK. We also represent Israel, which I'm not particualary thrilled about (I'm Palestinian).

Woah, I got off topic. Anyway, how exactly does the Prime Minister get chosen? I know Parliament does it, but does someone campaign for it, or do they basically just choose a random person to do it?

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azi - Apr 19, 2006 2:03 pm (#116 of 116)
Not to get political, but they are elected by the other MP's (Members of Parliament) of their political party. They then lead the campaign for the general elections, and if their party wins enough seats they become Prime Minister. Of course, they also have to win their own constituency seat. I think that was rather simplified, but you get the idea!

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